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Alright Ladies and Gentlemen,
It time for another installment of Adventures From The Railfan Window. I heard the rumbling of a train coming by on Track M at Jackson Av shortly after 11 tonight. What I found was what might be consisdered a bizarre sighting at least by my interpretation.
In comes an R-62A, followed by the R-110A. The catch was that they followed each other almost too close. They were coupled together!!! It would seem that the 110A is dead and was being towed by the R-62A.
The consist was N-8010-09-08-07-8006-2335-34-33-32-2331-S. My guess is the cars were going to 207th Street Yard. Are they going on the deadline with other cars over there?
Also two other notes of interest: 1) The 62A-110A consist was trailed by another 5 car R-62A set. 2) And while the 110A was waiting in the middle, R-142s 6321-25, and 6346-50 came into Jackson Av making test stops. The 62A-110A train went ahead, as is the following 62A set, before the 142 could proceed downtown.
The only question I have is what kind of coupling did they have in place to put the R-62A and R-110A together? The 110A does not have an H2C Head, rather the type that the LIRR and Metro North use.
-Stef
I know there are several kinds of adapter sets ... might this be how?
An adaptor had to be used. But is there a type of adaptor that one can use that would convert the 110A's coupler (don't recall the classification of the coupler) to the old fashioned H2 Head? The 110A coupler is rather unique since it only exists on that 10 car train and no other in NYCT.
-Stef
You'd be amazed at what motivated car shop welders can do when they get tired of seeing something in their face day after day. After all, can you imagine how thrilled the kids were when they were handed an R-9 and told "make it a 75 footer, we don't care what it looks like when you're done?" Some folks down in Coney *LIVE* for that kinda stuff. :)
Yes, an N1-H2 adapter is needed. I guess they found it, because
last I heard from "informed sources" they had lost the only
one they had.
Another thing that's an easy thing for Coney to do in a pinch is to replace the lead truck on both ends with something "more standard" and just not wire up the motors and pipe if there's an incompatibility in that respect. When you're moving something, there are many ways to win if you've got a handy overhead crane ... if the adaptor was lost and I wanted to get something out of my shop, I wouldn't think twice about doing something like that.
Except that replacing a truck doesn't affect the coupler.
The entire coupler head itself can be replaced but often the
yoke which supports it is not of a compatible dimension to simply
do this.
Possibly that's what they did if they couldn't find the adaptor set. Never claimed to know all that much about the undercarriage, at least not on the newer trainsets. But I do know that over the years, the couplers have changed and they always did manage to retrofit most of the older cars when they needed to ... and there's a number of amazing cobjobs sitting out at Coney for all sorts of strange situations.
What is the coupler the S.E.T. trains use that allows the work engines to MU?
MCB-H2 Coupler Adapter, If I recall correctly. The Diesels look peculiar with an H2 coupler on it's end. Then again, I always thought rider cars looked odd with the MCB Coupler.
-Stef
This sounds very interesting. It sounds like the TA is bringing them down for a possible final evaluation. Make them road worthy or scrap them.
Hopefully someone up there at 370 Jay or 130 Livingston may have read some of our posts on this. You just don't scrap 10 year old subway cars that are worth about $10,000,000.00 or so that haven't been involved in a wreck or was burned to a crisp!
R-110A'S on the shuttle, and that's my final answer!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, since they seem to be able to get them on the road coupled to R-62s... in service as UNPOWERED TRAILER CARS?! :)
The R-110As are not electrically compatible with anything else, so they were being towed.
-Stef
It's been suggested that the cars be shipped up to Kawasaki's
plant in Yonkers to be re-equipped with the same gear that is
going on the 142As. Basically salvage the body shells. Otherwise
those cars will forever be oddballs with no spare parts.
"It's been suggested that the cars be shipped up to Kawasaki's
plant in Yonkers to be re-equipped with the same gear that is
going on the 142As. Basically salvage the body shells. Otherwise
those cars will forever be oddballs with no spare parts. "
Maybe Kawasaki can go easy on the cost if this is so. Since the R-142A's are already troublesome and behind schedule, Kawasaki should offer to retrofit the R-110A's into R-142A-1's. That would be 10 less cars on the future IRT car order that will wipe out the remaining Redbirds.
R-142A-1 or R-142B? Which so better ?
Bill "Newkirk"
It is rather interesting to find out that the R-110As were coupled to a 5 car set of R-62As. They must have replaced one of the couplers with an H2C type coupler.
BMTJeff
The 110A was equipped with an adapter (mounted onto the original N1 Coupler) for coupling to the 62A.
-Stef
Hello and thankyou webmaster for inducing me.. I have some questions for you people about the active layup positions throughout the system.. Any information would be much appreciated as I need to study how trains are distributed in the system when peak periods start and finish.
Where are they?? From the information gathered on this site, here are the positions of the layups, from what i can figure..
IRT:
145st-137st..is this tunnel used for storage up to 103st?
72st..there is a small side track there.. is it used??
68st-59st..is this used as off-peak storage??
Atlantic Ave.. 1 track layup??
Uticia tunnels
Sunnyside..how large is this layup??
Morris Pk-Pelham Pkway??
Baychester Ave-Dyre Ave??
Tracks near E180st and unionport yards??
BMT:
Ocean Parkway-Brighton Beach??
Prospect park??..start of the shuttle
Broad street????
Canal st-Essex st..
City hall lower level..
8th ave-6th ave (L train)
Lexington Ave??
IND:
Church Ave-Ditmas Ave..
4th ave-Smith st??
Ralph Ave-Uticia ave??
Clinton/washington ave-Lafayette Ave??
Bedford-Nostrand Aves??
21st-court square..
Queens plaza-36st..
179st,jamacia..
Outside jamacia yard?
135st-145st??
168st-175st..
Kingsbridge Rd-Bedford Pk blvd.
205st..
Any information on how many trains are stored in thes layups, or if any of these are/are not layups, would be lifesaving.. Thankyou!!!
Under BMT, you left out the center track of the Astoria line.
145st-137st..is this tunnel used for storage up to 103st?
72st..there is a small side track there.. is it used??
68st-59st..is this used as off-peak storage??
Atlantic Ave.. 1 track layup??
Uticia tunnels
Sunnyside..how large is this layup??
Morris Pk-Pelham Pkway??
Baychester Ave-Dyre Ave??
Tracks near E180st and unionport yards??
10 trains live at 137 yard - 6 #1s and 4 #3s. M Track from 103 St to 137 St is only used for storage during snow emergencies and holds six more trains.
72 St - used mostly to get the Garbage Train out of the way of Revenue trains. SB the spur is 5 cars long, NB it's three.
59 St Spur - holds one train, but mostly used for turning service due to problems.
Times Sq Spur - same as above.
Atlantic Ave - same as 59 St.
Sunnyside - this belongs to the LIRR and AmTrak not the IRT.
Two trains can be stored North of Dyre Ave
Two trains can be stored south of Times Sq (Queens), but mostly during snowstorms.
Utica Ave storage - 4 trains can be stored south of Utica Ave, mostly during GOs that limit access to Livonia Yard. If you store trains here, you lose the relay capability.
Main Line Storage - during the current New Lots El rebuilding, trains are being laid up on the Manhattan bound express track between Atlantic Ave and Franklin Ave.
In the BMT, City Hall Lower holds six trains overnight (I believe it's four N and 2 R, but don't hold me to that) and
Lexington Ave/ 63 St holds one train on each level overnight.
"New Lots El rebuilding, trains are being stored on the Manhattan bound express between Franklin and Atlantic."
Thanks Alex for giving one of the reasons why the 4 is terminating at Atlantic until at least the summer. BTW, as I type this post, there is shuttle service on the 3 between Utica and NL. The shuttles are one-tracking between Penn and NL Aves using the Manhattan bound track only.
Nights + Weekends, Queens Blvd express from 75th to 179st, both sides. Es hang out around Union TPK, Fs on Hillside ave, and depending on wether it is night or weekend Rs or Gs around Van Wyck Blvd.
In an odd change in policy, trains are stored in the stations with express platforms on Queens Blvd. Usually in areas with trains storage on express tracks they leave the station empty to deter vandalism.
The Broadway express southbound from 14th to Prince holds 3 Rs middays, which terminate at 14st after running express every morning rush hour to get to this location. In the afternoons they run lite to Whitehall and go in service on the middle track (and head Queensbound). This is a remnant of the old <N> service.
Nights + weekends the southbound Broadway express is home to Ns and some Qs.
City Hall lower, during middays, holds 4 or more Rs which go OOS at Canal in the AM, in service there in the PM (from/to Queens).
Until I believe very recently Qs were stored at 2nd Ave middle tracks on the F during middays.
The middle tracks at 200st on the 8th ave IND are used for midday and possibly night storage, as are some tracks around Brooklyn Bridge on the Lex.
The tail tracks past Euclid are used for train storage, all four, nights + weekends.
9th ave lower (Brooklyn) may be used for train storage, I know something goes down there because the rails are usually shiny.
One track at 86st and 95st on the R in BK are used for night train storage.
Prospect Pk, the "southbound local" track stores the extra shuttle train.
There is a small yard at Rockaway Park which only holds a few work trains and the five Rock Pk to Columbus Circle trains (sometimes a 6th A is there). Extra shuttles use it as well.
"The Broadway express southbound from 14th to Prince holds 3 Rs middays, which terminate at 14st after running express every morning rush hour to get to this location. In the afternoons they run lite to Whitehall and go in service on the middle track (and head Queensbound). This is a remnant of the old service."
(1). R trains don't run express to 14th. Some Southbound N and R trains terminate at Whitehall. Then they run light to Canal where they can lay-up on City Hall Lower level.
(2). Trains only use that express track right now because City Hall LL is presently Closed (trackwork). It will re-open.
Thankyou for this valuable information, you have helped me immensely.. any more info would be much appreciated!
Speaking offf lay-ups. What is or was the purpose of a lay-up track on the southbound side between 174-175 and 170 street stations on the Concourse line? It's never in use or was it?
It was built in anticipation of relays north of 161st/River which is where Junkee Stadium is located. I *have* seen a train laid up there on rare occasion when I worked the Concourse line but it has a path across all three tracks to the uptown local leading to it. I imagine at one time, they were planning to turn trains around at 167th.
For you information and interest, today, March 1 the first electric train ran in Sydney, Australia, between Sydney and Mortdale and Oatley, 75 years ago.
This Saturday, March 3, one of the cars in the first train and now preserved will join with others to re-create the first runs. The car is single-deck C 3102 preserved in operating order by operator Cityrail.
Another train with single/double deckcars, built 1955-65 will also run with two single-deck motor cars and two double-deck trailers, one T 4801 the first such car in Australia.
Just before 7th Avenue going Southbound on a D/Q, for about 5-10 feet just before the platform begins, there is a huge opening from celing to ground which shows exactly how close you are and how you are surrounded by IRT trackage. At this point, you are at the same depth as the 4/5 and if you look through that hole, you will see tunnel lighting on another tunnel, my guess is that's what that is. Now, I haven't seen a train yet, but what else could be there?
When you are standing on the 7th Ave. platform for the D train your standing above the #4 express tracks. They squeezed the two tracks of the D on top of the IRT express tracks and between the IRT local tracks. It runs this way between Grand Army Plaza and just before Atlantic Ave.
if you're riding the head car of a q, with a railfan window you can quite frequently catch sight of the irt when you are leaving 7th ave heading into atlantic... it's been like that for 45+ years that i can remember... i always found it mysterious seeing the irt go by...
years and years ago when the brighton express used the current bridge tracks, i would periodically see a train going over the bridge on the other side of the bridge, which also seemed very mysterious...
the mystery of it all is often more satisfying to me than all the info about cars and track maps....
The other side of the bridge in those days went through the Nassau Loop. I hate to say it but.....look at the track maps of the Canal St area pre- and post-Chrystie St tunnel for more info.
The mystery is probably what drove us to be railfans. Hopefully, the answers are as interesting as the questions.
the answers are interesting... but the mystery is more compelling... i used to imagine that the people on the train on the other side of the bridge were condemned and were off to another world...
it is often nice to forget all the answers and just wonder about it all...
Additionally, if you're at the front railfan window of an outbound '2' or '3', just after Bergen Street, the front end of the Manhattan-bound 7th Avenue platform can be seen on the left for a split second.
I was once on a New Lots-bound '3' stopped between Bergen and Grand Army and could clearly see a 'Q' passing by immediately on the left. Thought I was going nuts!
Good story. I think for a lot of us there is a "sanctity" about the 3 original lines being separate, particularly underground. I remember having emotional difficulty when the Chrystie St tunnel opened, thus forever blurring the IND and BMT. The KK line was particularly disturbing because it seemed to go generally south into the city and then back north once it got there. (I excused the BMT excursion onto the IND Queens line, probably because I didn't live there.) I never would have imagined seeing an IRT train from a BMT one, even though they both ran down Flatbush Av. In fact, in the 1960's, there was no free transfer between the two Atlantic Av stations, even though they were technically at the same location, and I never thought there was anything wrong or unusual about it!
The KK was also disturbing in that, after leaving 57th St it ran "south" and by the time it got over the WillyB, it was running "north". The changeover is either at Broadway-Lafayette or at Essex St. I'm not sure which.
IRT and BMT trains actually share the same platforms - at both levels of Queensborough Plaza. Before 1951 (or 1949?) the Astoria line was built to IRT platform clearances, and both IRT and BMT ran trains to both Astoria and Flushing. BMT trains from Astoria and Flushing could only run as far as Queensborough Plaza.
By the way, I knew that sooner or later someone would adopt a handle based on "Sic transit gloria mundi". It was just waiting to happen! Good luck!
Bob Sklar
Actually, thats the 2/3 trains that you see. The 4/5 are beneath the D/Q.
Here is the Flatbush set up:
Flatbush/NL bound(2/3) (D/Q) (2/3)Manhattan bound
(4/5)
3TM
I am surpised that the TA has never thought to cut a hole in the wall and put in a switch to make moving IRT cars to the B division simpler.
What's funny is that the whole is somewhat there already!
Joe,
No can do:-)
Although old IRT cars run as work trains on the B-division, they could not be used for passenger service due to the large gap between the cars and the platforms. Similarly, BMT cars cannot negotiate the IRT platforms or tunnels due to both width and length.
Bob
True. But connections between the divisions are useful for non-revenue trains.
:-) Andrew
Such a connection at that point would make it easier to switch trains between the Flushing Line and the rest of the IRT. Flushing trains could switch to the BMT at Queensboro Plaza (as they do now), continue along the Brighton line to the Flatbush Avenue tunnels, then switch over to the IRT mainline. It certainly would be easier than doing Flushing/BMT/IND/207th Street or Concourse Yard routing that has to be done now.
I have a question. Is it possible they could expand the 7th Ave station so that the 2/3 stop there too, and there's an accross-the-platform transfer between the 2/3 and D/Q? Due to a somewhat different history, there is of course already an accross-the-platform transfer between the 7 and N.
:-) Andrew
Why bother with the exisitng connections available at Atlantic Av (direct transfer) and Franklin Av (to the S which connects to the D/Q)? I tried to think offhand of similar shared trackage configurations elsewhere in the system but couldn't come up with any. The concept of isolated transfer points seems to have worked so far. Multiple connections via adjacent stations would provide minimal time savings but could be justified if other benefits are possible thru the transfer such as ADA compliance, etc.
Was in Boston yesterday and while awaiting a Red Line subway at South Station, noticed that the subway station walls had a poster of an elevated line running alongside South Station. It ran on the right side of South Station (facing the Station). A two-car train was on the el. What line was this, where were the terminuses (terminii?) and what year was the el torn down?
I transferred at Park Street to the B train. After exiting the underground and turning left onto Comm. Ave., you can see where there was a line that continued straight on Brighton Ave. (I think that was the name of street). I later drove down that street and near an auto parts store there was still some street trackage visible, complete with poles and trolley wire. My cousin thought they de-energized that line about 25 years ago - I'm surprised the MBTA left the line and poles up all these years. What year was it abandoned and where was the outbound terminus?
Thanks.
The elevated running in front of South Station was the Atlantic Avenue El, and was torn down sometime in the 1930s. As for where it went: I belive that in one direction it looped around the "hub" along Atlantic Ave, and eventually joined the Green Line El at North Station (which still exists), and from there the line went to Leachmere. In the other direction, the El snaked down to Washington St where it joined the Washington St El, which was the southern branch of the Orange Line until it was torn down in 1987 or so.
The streetcar line running along Brighton Ave was the "A" branch of the Green Line. It ran down Brighton Ave, turned off onto Cambridge St, and joined Washington St near Brighton Center. The line ran through Brighton Center, Oak Square, Newton Corner, and terminated at the trolley yards in Watertown Square. It went out of service back in 1979 or so. However, the T ran cars down it every Sunday night for at least a decade after that. Only in the last few years has the city taken out the street tracks along most of the route as part of a "neighborhood improvement" program.
The A line went out of service closer to 1972-1973.
Thanks for the information! I kinda wondered why there was B, C, D, and E trains but no A.
Why did the T run cars on the A line on Sunday evenings? To keep the wire polished in case they resumed service? It's a darn shame the service was discontinued because it sure is needed - no way to get around that part of town without a car.
I wish someone wrote a book on the history of the Boston rapid transit system, similar to Big Ed's book on the NY system.
Service was discontinued because express busses on the pike provide a faster ride to downtown than the green line did. After the pike opened there was no longer enough ridership to keep the line open.
Another interesting spot for non-revenue trolley runs is Chestnut Hill Ave. The T uses it to move cars from the B to Reservoir (a small yard). From there the cars can be routed to the C & D.
Mr t__:^)
Some histories do exist.
These two are still in print, and I just picked them up yesterday (I was in Boston myself for a conference). Forgive the capitals - that's how the search data was returned. Both by Arcadia Publishing:
Boston in Motion by FRANK CHENEY & ANTHONY MITCHELL SAMMARCO, ISBN number 0738500879, 18.99
When BOSTON RODE THE EL by FRANK CHENEY & ANTHONY MITCHELL SAMMARCO, ISBN number 0738504629, 18.99
Change at Park Street Under by Brian Cudahy. Out of print, but it does turn up from time to time at train shows.
This one is also out of print, but is being considered for a reprint ....
TROLLEYS UNDER THE HUB by FRANK CHENEY & ANTHONY SAMMARCO, ISBN number 0752409077, $16.99 (Arcadia Publishing)
--Mark
>>>This one is also out of print, but is being considered for a reprint ....
TROLLEYS UNDER THE HUB by FRANK CHENEY & ANTHONY SAMMARCO, ISBN number 0752409077, $16.99 (Arcadia Publishing) <<<
I found this book last summer at the Barnes and Nobel, adjacent to the Boston University campus at 660 Beacon St., north of Kenmore Square Station on the Green line. It was part of a B&N display of regional books. Several of the Arcadia "Images" Series were represented, as well as others, with many books about Fenway Park, etc. (BTW, I went to a BosSox game that night, which is just across the Square and down the street).
The historical pictures selected are excellent; some of the stations and areas that we visited during the "T Party" are shown, which provided a great "then" and "now" perspective.
This is a campus B&N; (#39 on map-scroll to the right), with the lower floors stocked like a regular B&N and the textbooks and supplies on the upper floors. I usually make a point to visit a bookstore such as this, which is large enough to stock transit books (in the absence of a Transit Museum in Boston). Usually bookstores on or near a university campus will stock such titles.
Of course, in Boston, this means there are LOTS of campus bookstores available :^)
Why did the T run cars on the A line on Sunday evenings? To keep the wire polished in case they resumed service? It's a darn
shame the service was discontinued because it sure is needed - no way to get around that part of town without a car.
I have heard three explanations for running cars on Sunday eves:
1. The T was asserting its right of way; if they stopped running cars altogether, then they would lose some rights to run cars there. (Don't ask me about the legalities -- I'm only reporting what I heard.)
2. The T wanted to run cars on the tracks as a test to make sure that the tracks & overhead were still functional in case they were needed.
3. The Watertown trolley barn was also a maintainence shop, and they ran cars needing maintainence down to it for repair.
As far as which explanation is correct: I don't know. However, #1 & 2 seem like conjecture, whereas #3 is pretty likely since the Watertown shop was an important maintainence center. Does anybody here know the answer?
Here is a web page discussing the watertown trolley line:
http://members.aol.com/netransit5/watertown/watertown.html
Clever handle. But it sounds like you think it glorious when illness befalls transit. I sure hope you're not saying you are happy the A line went out of service!
I'm glad you like the handle. It actually refers to the fact that people who love transit systems as much as we do can't be completely normal.
It is always sad when a line goes out of service. I lived in Boston for four years (1972-1976), one of those in Brighton, though closer to CommAv, so I can't say I would have been a regular rider. I did drive on those tracks a lot, though, on Cambridge St from Brighton Av to Washington.
What is "normal" anyway? :O)
When I lived in D.C., I used to drive on the rails embedded in O and P (maybe Q?) Streets in Georgetown all the time. Those 2 streets were still of cobblestone, so it was smoother, and I figured I saved a few minutes of wear on the suspension of my sub-compact. I could only imagine how it must have been to see and ride streetcars on those quiet, tree-canopied, residential streets. Knowing Gerogetownians, most of whome could write a book on the concept that is NIMBY, I was probably the only resident who had any nostalgia about the streetcars, and I wasn't even living there when they were running!
I haven't been there in years. I wonder if those rails are still there. IIRC, buses plied the same routes when I lived there in 1993-1994.
I used to do that on McDonald Ave in Brooklyn before it was totally redone in the '80s.
It wasn't until the mid-90s that the trolley tracks were covered up, AFTER the initial street rehab!
--Mark
The elevated running in front of South Station was the Atlantic Avenue El, and was torn down sometime in the 1930s.
The date I heard was 1940.
I belive that in one direction [Atlantic Ave El] it looped around the "hub" along Atlantic Ave, and eventually joined the Green Line El at North
Station (which still exists), and from there the line went to Leachmere.
No, it joined the El at the junction of Causeway St and Atlantic Ave and joined the El over the Charlestown Bridge and on to Everett via Sullivan Square.
The Atlantic Ave El opened 8/22/1901. Closed 10/1/1938. It was torn down in 1942 for the War effort.
(Was in Boston yesterday and while awaiting a Red Line subway at South Station, noticed that the subway station walls had a
poster of an elevated line running alongside South Station. It ran on the right side of South Station (facing the Station). A
two-car train was on the el. What line was this, where were the terminuses (terminii?) and what year was the el torn down?)
It was an alternate routing for what is now the orange line it stopped service in the late 1930's and torn down during WWII.
(I transferred at Park Street to the B train. After exiting the underground and turning left onto Comm. Ave., you can see where
there was a line that continued straight on Brighton Ave. (I think that was the name of street). I later drove down that street and
near an auto parts store there was still some street trackage visible, complete with poles and trolley wire. My cousin thought
they de-energized that line about 25 years ago - I'm surprised the MBTA left the line and poles up all these years. What year
was it abandoned and where was the outbound terminus?)
Revenue service stopped in 1969 but the line was not abandoned until 1994. The terminus was Watertown and there was a car barn there.
SOURCE: PATH document received 10/2000
82 PA -1c cars...100-181
105 PA-1a cars...600-709
14 PA-2a cars...710-723
39 PA-3A cars...724-769
95 PA 4A cars...800-894
Total cars
a........253
c........ 82
total... 335
Service requirements:
a..220
c.. 75
Allowed Out of Service
a...33
c... 7
Work PA Cars
694.754.761.765.768
K Work cars:1214,1227,1218,1241,1246,1210,1232,1237,1238,1243
Otehr K work cars..1209,1244,1215,1236,1220,1223,1226,1239
So by my calculations there are 4 unaccounted-for PA1a cars (600-709 is "110" you list 105 in service + one in the work car category), and 3 unaccounted for PA3a's (724-769 is 46 cars, you list 39 in service and 4 work cars leaving 3). My notes also show 726 in work service but that might be in error.
And what's the difference between "K Work Cars" and "Other K Work Cars"?
I just copied the info from the sheet given to me by PATH-with no editorial comments--sorry, Dave!
I'm heading to North Carolina in the morning for a quick trip home... wife permitting I'll detour through Wilmington and see if I can find that PATH car I photographed last November and ascertain its number.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have again inspected the PATH car in Wilmington... there is no trace of a number on it... whoever removed the decals did a much more thorough job of it on the number than they did on the PATH logo. As can be seen from the photo it is an A car, which narrows it down a bit, but not a whole lot... it is blue-grey in color which may further identify the series. Beyond that I have no clues.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If it's blue it's been scrapped a while.
I just recently saw a new silver-white-gray paint scheme (not a new scheme I guess, just fresh paint) on a 6xx car the other day. Looks nice. Some cars are also getting revised door switch panels (using a round notched key rather than the old type) with a light on the panel indicating door status for the train.
If it's blue it's been scrapped a while.
Anybody got a scrap list for PA cars?
That's part of what we were hoping to come up with here...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just curious - can LIRR MU's potentially run on the IND system? Are the cars too wide/long for the tunnels?
At 85 feet they are too long.
Peace,
ANDEE
And too wide IIRC !! And maybe too high !!
It's not even close. Ever see the picture of the R44s being
tested at Forest Hills? The 75' cars just barely fit in some
spots. 85' cars plus another few feet on the height....forget it.
The State Legislature's Joint Budget Oversight Committee voted yesterday to transfer $15.6 from other transit accounts to pay for extending the HBLR from Hoboken Terminal to the Port Imperial Ferry station in Weehawken, from 34th Street to 22nd Street in Bayonne and from Port Imperial to Tonnelle Avenue in North Bergen. Completion is expected within 5 years.
Story in Jersey Journal.
Hope they're not depending on the feds for any help. Did ya see Shrub's budget proposal from the Congressional address? The U.S. Transportation Dept. is losing the most funding at -11.4%. How much will the leaner USDOT spend on road-building or airline boosting versus light rail? We'll just have to wait and see, I guess.
Shrub's budget allocates nearly 1% of the transportation money to Amtrak.
And another thread says that transit funding is increasing. Are they cutting road money?
Hi. I want to purchase one of the gum machines that were prevalant in the NYC subways in the 50's & 60's. My memory is vague, but they dispensed one chiclet-like gum at a time.
Does anyone out there have one to sell, or know of a way to purchase one?
Thank you.
I used to work with someone who had one in his office. I will try and find out where he works now and see if he wants to sell it.
I was telling my children about these the other day. I believe there were two Chiclets in their own little box. You could get one of four different flavors (each with their own colored box), by sliding a lever horizontally under the appropriate flavor and then pressing the lever downward. The Chiclets would come out below. Good luck finding one.
That's absolutely right good buddy. Exactly. I really missed those gum and peanut machines. When I see those stations empty of all amenities today I really get nostalgic. My dad always treated me to some chiclets. In fact he usually bought me two so I could mix the flavors. I really enjoyed doing that. Well, you brought out some more nostalgia in me. It works every time.
...chiclet-like...
They were Chicklets, manufactured in Long Island City. That did not guarantee their freshness, when purchased for a copper penny.
There was one on eBay recently... although the seller claimed it was from NYC, I have my doubts... there were no takers (the starting bid was $500, IIRC).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm sure you all saw the news. Just to let you know the epicenter was 3.5 miles from my school! OMG! it was SOOOO COOOOL! Ceiling tiles were falling all over the place, the lights went out, it was AWESOME.
Are you useing up phone lines to post this?
i'm glad you're into the rocking and rolling... here's a little music for you...
hey your little file made my broweser shut down.
heypaul,
What ever sound clip you posted, what is it?
Netscape has no plug-in for whatever it is.
it's from the opening credits of "blackboard jungle", which i played into the phone to "pagetalk"...
Lucky it wasn't under your school. You'd have been dead.
For all practical purposes, it WAS under my school. 4 miles horizontal on an earthquake 30 miles below the surface might as well be right underneath...
Excuse Me...! People in that town were devastated by the outcome and all u do is celebrating..! R u some kind of a sick psycho!.. How would u feel if u were in the situation? What the hell is wrong with u?
["Ceiling tiles were falling all over the place, the light went out, it was AWESOME"]-That is sad to hear something like that out of ur disgusting tone.
Ignorant like u really irritate me.
expressm wrote:
"Excuse Me...! People in that town were devastated by the outcome and all u do is celebrating..! R u some kind of a sick psycho!.. How would u feel if u were in the situation? What the hell is wrong with u?"
i understand your dismay at spunky's enthusiasm for what happened... i think he was right there, in school, 4 miles from where the center, when it hit... i've never experienced an earthquake, a tornado, or flood, but there is something awesome and profound in the experience of nature's power... it is a violent reminder that our cozy lives can be disturbed by forces that are not within our control...
in a world of television, movies, controlled high schools,
and the internet, the earthquake that hit was for real...
i believe his response came from a young person's experience of a profound experience... was it a "nice" thing to say?... you can be the judge of that...
is he a psycho??... well i have observed spunky for quite some time, and i can assure you that he is as sane as i am...
spunky has some really serious problems...
I wonder how the premier American Flyer dealer of that region, Ron Leventon, fared. He's in Chehalis. I was planning on calling him in a week or so to buy a few more train items, so I'll check then.
I guess, it's like this:
In an age where no one is allowed to get hurt at all, where wooden roller coasters have five-point safety restraints and where even the XFL gets stopped every five seconds because of behavior that's "too rough", we get set in our ways about having our lives be uninterrupted.
I for one do not believe that a person's life should be continuous, positive, and decresing for all values of X. I think life has loops, asymptotes, holes, and places where it can be divided by zero.
So yeah, having just survived 30 seconds of raw power that is big enough to shake a hugh-jass concrete building up and down, I did think it was cool. It was quite exhiliarating, and a nice reminder of the fact that nature doesn't play softball...
In an age where no one is allowed to get hurt at all, where wooden roller coasters have five-point safety restraints and where even the XFL gets stopped every five seconds because of behavior that's "too rough", we get set in our ways about having our lives be uninterrupted.
Joke's on us, there'll always be "interruptions."
I for one do not believe that a person's life should be continuous, positive, and decresing for all values of X. I think life has loops, asymptotes, holes, and places where it can be divided by zero.
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say, but almost certainly I agree with it :-)
So yeah, having just survived 30 seconds of raw power that is big enough to shake a hugh-jass concrete building up and down, I did think it was cool. It was quite exhiliarating, and a nice reminder of the fact that nature doesn't play softball...
Heh heh, I'd probably think it was pretty cool too.
Sure, a powerless earthquake such as this may have been a thrill, but until you've seen a friend's arm sticking out from under his formerly 20 story apartment building like I did, show a little more tact, and gratitude.
You dare call someone ignorant and you post stuff like this...
>>>Excuse Me...!<<<
>>>People in that town were devastated by the outcome and all u do is celebrating<<<
>>>R u some kind of a sick psycho!..<<<
>>>Ignorant like u really irritate me.<<<
The irony speaks for itself. That post was an excercise(sp?) in ignorance. Each sentence dripping with bliss. Go back to school junior, but before you go, take this info with you. Someone living in Seattle said FEW (in the area of less than 10) buildings were leveled, he was driving at the time and didn't even know what happened, and he was at the gym 20 minutes later! He said the media blew it out of proportion as media types always do and it was just a monor blip on the local radar screen. So Spunky can laugh and say what he wants about it. He survived. That's the best type of attitude you should have toward harmless events like that.
How dare u to judge me!
>>>That's the best type of attitude you should have toward harmless events like that<<<
Yeah, Few buildings had leveled.
But, Thank god there were no reports of serous injuries or deaths.
And thank god that the quake in Seattle wasn't as serious as the quake Taiwan suffered last year.
If that happened, I'm sure, u and spunkly wouldn't be so happy about it.
And what is school Junior?
Checking your spelling.
Was everybody there was OK? Thank GOD that you still Alive. "Oh oh oh Staying alive, Staying alive. Oh oh oh Staying alive, AAAAAAlive."
Dominick Bermudez.
yes, one week after the quake everyone is still alive.
Thank god. You are lucky to sitll be alive.
Dominick Bermudez.
Why is he lucky? Unless you're one of those people who goes around telling people they should be thankful for their life, then what your saying is a total waste of time (it would be anyway).
Nobody died in this earthquake!
I spoke with Ron Leventon, the American Flyer dealer in Chehalis, yesterday and he said they came through the earthquake OK.
I will be on the march episode of Transit Transit. I met Mrs Nora basset, the reporter when she and the TT crew came to the opening at the Transit museum. I am a volunteer for the museum and they asked me what I was doing there. Then she asked me on TV, do I plan to work for NYCT? I was like I hope to be a Motorman.
Shouts to Pelham bay dave!. I guess alot of Railfans are on TT every now and then.
By the way U can know its me because I have my E Train shirt on and my F Train hat on. All the Railfans and people there called me the Queens boulevard express guy, and the Queens IND guy. LOL
Well I've been on Transit Tranist,well at least a picture of my backside. Closing credit shot up at Shoreline as I operated 775, some say it is my best side....
The lake shore limited is delayed when I visit south station. Could anyone give me a reason why the lake shore limited is delayed?
It's Amtrak, what did you expect?
+3 hours is common on the Late Sure Limited.
I've heard it called The Late Sore Limited
The Lake Shore Ltd. competes with freight trains and runs on their trackage, mostly CSX Transportation. CSX gives preference to their trains, which make them money. Amtrak is a nuisance, and no manner of legal mandate will ever make CSX, NS, or any freight railroad give preference to passenger trains in lieu of freight trains, unless someone figures out how passenger revenue can outweigh freight revenue. Sure, Amtrak pays CSX for the right to operate on their lines, but it's a pittance compared to their core business. After all, it is government money, no matter what it says in the leger. One off-schedule freight train throws Amtrak's schedules out-of-whack for that line, and, in fact, has a ripple effect on the whole system, similar to the airlines' hub and spoke system but not as keenly felt because, God knows, there are a helluva lot more air trips than train trips serving the travel market. And most of us know from our reading that freight railroad schedules are a suggestion at best. CSX would rejoice if Amtrak, MARC, and VRE were off its rails. They're only there by the grace of Congress and the state legislatures. I don't care how many passenger rail conferences there are, or how many pretty words are uttered by Class A CEOs, Amtrak is a pain in their ass. Imagine someone coming into your office every day at, say, 3:15 in the afternoon with a warrant in hand dictating their perogative to use your computer for a half-hour to allow those unable to afford a mainstream internet account to send email messages, without you or your company having any choice in the matter. If the feds were to try to do that at my company, they would be laughed out the door.
Until there are designated passenger-only right-of-ways, any Amtrak train running on freight railroad tracks will rarely be on time.
Exacerbating the problems with the Lake Shore is the fact that the ill-effects of the CSX takeover of Conrail are still being sorted-out. Competition with freight trains and infrastructure-based speed-restrictions are actually built into the Amtrak schedules, so, imagine, if there were dedicated passenger right-of-ways, how much better those schedules would be. You could have Acelas everywhere, and doing the 180mph they're supposed to.
The priority given to the owner of the ROW also affects commuter services. Amtrak has the ROW on the Northeast Corridor line -- guess whether Amtrak or NJT gets held up? Metro North has the ROW on to New Haven -- opposite result.
Also, on the Lake Shore Limited, the CSX track upstate is not exactly well maintained.
Also, on the Lake Shore Limited, the CSX track upstate is not exactly well maintained.
It's not? Is this a recent thing? When I rode the Late for Sure Limited upstate before CSX took it over from Conrail, we made very good speed (for freight trackage anyway).
Well at least in Conrail Days the Chicago Line was one of their premier freight routes.
It's all one big mud pump now
It's all one big mud pump now
Nothing's changed. I took the Lake Shore Limited from Chicago to NY in May 1971, right after Amtrak was born, and it was 3 hours late.
I had a fun experience on train 64 (the Maple Leaf) once, going from Utica to Poughkeepsie. It was at least an hour and a half late showing up, the cafe car was out of stock before I got on the train, we lost more than an hour running between Utica and Albany waiting for other trains to get out of our way, everything at the Albany-Rensselaer station was closed, I had to listen to two dozen people say "I'm never riding a train again; next time, I'll take the bus!" (from Buffalo???), and the train arrived in Poughkeepsie more than three hours late. More than three hours late, and the trip's only supposed to take three hours. Moral of the story: never board an Amtrak train on an empty stomach.
Or pack a lunch.
Often the trains from Florida arrive in NY from 30 minutes to 2 hours early. The announcer at NYP stresses the word early several times during the arrival announcement. I think it is because at DC, Philly, and other stations it did not take as long as expected to unload the baggage, passengers, mail, etc.; and since those stops are discharge only they don't have to wait for the appropriate time.
Often the trains from Florida arrive in NY from 30 minutes to 2 hours early.
The timetables are padded between DC and NYP to improve the on-time average.
I would think the time is made up below DC. I took a train from FL to DC once. We stopped in Jachsonville for at least an hour to link up with another train, then again in SC for about 3 hours because the baggage car caught on fire. All they said was "Technical difficulties," but if you looked out the window you could see we were surrounded by firetrucks. Anyway, we still arrived in DC on time.
As is The Crescent..I believe Amtrak has a much better relationship with NS than it does with CSX.....And,yes those schedules,especially northbound, are pretty well padded....
Delays or no delays, I wonder why there isn't more of that serivice. Buffalo and Rochester would bennefit from more connections to cities like Erie and Cleveland, which are much closer than New York City. I used to wonder that when I took the train to and from school at Buffalo.
:-) Andrew
I'm writing another story and I need some information. Can someone please give me a popular morning train from Ronkonkoma and would arrive at Penn Station around 8:15? It must be 1 seat ride. Info I need includes the train #, times, how crowded it is when people A) first get on at Ronkonkoma and B) b4 it arrives at Penn Station, what equipment it usues and what station stops it makes.
I also need the same info for a train from Penn TO Ronkonkoma that leaves c. 5:30. Also can someone describe the Ronkonkoma station and the state of parking there?
WASHINGTON, DC, February 28, 2001 – The American Public Transportation Association (APTA) applauds the Bush Administration’s proposal to increase federal transit funding by $486 million, to $6.7 billion in Fiscal Year 2002.
"The proposed increase in federal transit investment continues the upward trend that has resulted in a more than 21% increase in transit ridership over the past five years, with 9.4 billion trips taken by Americans across the country in 2000," said APTA Chair Ronald J. Tober.
"Balanced investment at the federal level will ensure that our transportation system fully supports the priorities outlined by President Bush in his address to the Nation last night, and will help the economy continue to grow," said APTA President William W. Millar.
Millar also noted, "We are pleased that the President has honored the funding guaranteed under the landmark Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century (TEA 21) and will work with Congress and the Administration to enact the fully authorized amounts."
--APTA Press Release
Well, he did approve state funds to preserve the Chicago-to-San Antonio Amtrak line in Texas four years ago, so he does have a better record on transportation as governor than some of his fellow Republicans in Texas do. They baiscally fought and killed the Austin and San Antonio light rail lines, but those battles were focused on area bond issues and never got up to the state level (since the state government in Texas meets for only five months every two years, unless a proposal is in the pipeline in Austin at that time, it has to be handled locally or it will sit on the back burner for the next 43 months)
How much does New York get? Republicans, remember, are against big government...for people who are not like themselves. Unless Bush decides to make a play for New York in 2004, having him spend more on ANYTHING is probably bad for us.
Pataki's re-election bid, and who runs against him, probably is the key to what kind of funds NYS gets, while the mayoral election will probably be the key to what kind of funding the city gets.
I'm betting the Bushies and the GOP in Washington would have more of a passion to see Pataki defeat Andrew Cuomo -- both because of his dad and because of his actions as HUD secretary under Clinton -- than Carl McCall (who most of them have never even heard of). So if it looks like Cuomo is going to be the Democrats' nominee, expect NYS to get some more transit $$ from Washington next year and expect it to be most funneled into LIRR and Metro North projects if Mark Green or someone else considered a partisan Democrat is elected mayor. Pataki will want to spend the money where it can get him the most votes, and that's in the suburbs (even Chappaqua).
If the new mayor turns out to be someone who doesn't necessarily support Pataki's re-election but tacitly agrees to keep a low profile during the gubernatorial election (easier to do if there's a nasty Cuomo-McCall primary fight), then the city could get a few more transit bucks tossed its way by the MTA board as a way of paying back hizzoner.
Well New Yorkers already have proved their political stupidity by electing that filthy lying carpetbagger to the Senate. If they are dumb enoough to put Green in the Mayor's chair and little Cuomo in the Albany seat, then you deserve whatever crap you get. Cuomo? You saw what his father did to New York. Hell the New York tourist association was headquartered in Pennsylvania because of the oppressive taxes in their own state. His son is a chip off the old block, and what needs to be said about Green that has not been already been said----that he is a dork of the first order. Well wake up New Yorkers and smell the freeking coffee. One major mistake is enough.
Well New Yorkers already have proved their political stupidity by electing that filthy lying carpetbagger to the Senate. If they are dumb enoough to put Green in the Mayor's chair and little Cuomo in the Albany seat, then you deserve whatever crap you get. Cuomo? You saw what his father did to New York. Hell the New York tourist association was headquartered in Pennsylvania because of the oppressive taxes in their own state. His son is a chip off the old block, and what needs to be said about Green that has not been already been said----that he is a dork of the first order. Well wake up New Yorkers and smell the freeking coffee. One major mistake is enough.
I can't figure it out myself. NYC voters (those from the 'burbs and Upstate are somewhat more enlightened) specialize in disgracing themselves each election. One possibility is that New Yorkers are simply below the national average in terms of intelligence. There's some evidence to support that position; for example, when states are ranked by their scores on nationwide academic tests such as the SAT, New York is usually quite low. And if you look at the ... the things being churned out by NYC schools, you'll see what I mean.
Nevertheless, I don't think the reason for NYC's political ignorance is that city residents have low I.Q. scores. No, the real problem is that way too many of them are hopelessly naive country bumpkins who are too thickheaded to realize that the world doesn't stop at the Hudson. Nowhere else can you find hordes of people who think they're oh-so-sophisticated because they can eat sushi with chopsticks, name the 25 principal players in the New York Philharmonic, and have seen at least 10 Broadway shows in the last three months, yet have never driven a car, shopped in a Wal*Mart or supermarket, paid a mortgage or sent a child to a public school. With cretins like that, you get Hillary and Mario.
yet have never...shopped in a Wal*Mart...paid a mortgage or sent a child to a public school.
Such lucky people.
Very Lucky
Peace,
ANDEE
The peanut gallery is heard from.
Snob!!
Should I take that as an insult or a compliment?
I am PROUD to say that I've never been in a Wal*Mart. I did edit Peter's sentence to exclude certain things that I don't find objectionable. Actually, I put in the schools and mortgage thing so Wal*Mart wouldn't stand alone.
My primary beef with Peter Rosa's message was that it assumes that the majority of the electorate is the 7-figure income limousine liberal Upper West Sider. I'm going to go back to that message and register my REAL displeasure with it.
Good for you, Pork.
Take it as a friendly dig Pork. No harm meant, just trying to push your buttons. If the truth be known, however, there are two guys on this site that just piss me off. I'll leave it you to guess who I mean.
yet have never...shopped in a Wal*Mart...paid a mortgage or sent a child to a public school.
Such lucky people.
Lucky? Let's see ... they get to overpay for inferior merchandise at crappy local stores, pay thousands of dollar per month in rent without getting a tax deduction or building equity, and have to sign up their children at birth for $20K/year private schools.
[...and have to sign up their children at birth for $20K/year private schools.]
What do you mean HAVE TO...there is such a thing as public schools. Believe it or not, but some public schools are indeed good places for learning.
BMTman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Like the Arcadia schools where I teach. A great district in Southern California where the teachers are excellent, the students are excellent, and the neigborhood is excellent. But such is not the case in the inner city neigborhoods of either New York or Los Angeles. So I know what Big Pete was saying. And those people he refers to would never send their kids to public schools at any rate. I know of that kind. I've seen them out here and I know they exist in your balliwick. They talk about helping less fortunate students, but they wouldn't think of sending their kids to mingle with "those kind of people". They make me sick, the rotten phonies.
Believe it or not, but some public schools are indeed good places for learning.
Some? I would say MANY.
...and have to sign up their children at birth for $20K/year private schools.
What do you mean HAVE TO...there is such a thing as public schools. Believe it or not, but some public schools are indeed good places for learning.
Right, but these snobbish Manhattan elites would sooner gargle with Liquid Drano than send their precious ankle-biters to public school.
This entire discussion started with you talking about how NY voters can elect Hillary. Why did you talk only about Manhattan elites?
This entire discussion started with you talking about how NY voters can elect Hillary. Why did you talk only about Manhattan elites?
Those Manhattan elites sure didn't vote for Lazio.
Those Manhattan elites sure didn't vote for Lazio.
So what? Were they they the only people to vote for Hillary, and thus caused her to win?
[Those Manhattan elites sure didn't vote for Lazio.]
People in the outer boroughs sure didn't vote in large numbers for Lazio either.
What was there in Lazio to vote for besides his Howdy-Dowdy grin and the fact that he represented people who hated Hillary. He didn't stand for anything. And alot of people also felt that he would be a lackey for Govenor Pataki (opps, sorry about the rythming there).
BTW, Lazio never brought up his ethnicity while he marched in most city-wide parades where most politicos mention the pride in their roots. I think if it had come out that Lazio is in fact NOT Italian he would have done FAR worse among suburbanites than originally estimated.
BMTman
What was there in Lazio to vote for besides his Howdy-Dowdy grin and the fact that he represented people who hated Hillary. He didn't stand for anything. And alot of people also felt that he would be
a lackey for Govenor Pataki (opps, sorry about the rythming there).
Lazio was a poor candidate, no argument from me there, but ANYONE would be better than Hillary. I'm hoping against hope that she gets so enmeshed in "Pardongate" that she'll have to resign. Christ Almighty, that would be one of the brightest days in New York's (and America's) history.
Pete: If you can get a copy of the New York Observer dated February 28, and read the editorial you might get a real eye opener. I don't live in New York but I'm told the NYO is about as liberal a paper as there is in liberal New York. To wit, they denounce the Clintons as low-lifers, apologize to ever supporting them, calls Hillary nothing but an enabling crook, and calls on her to resign. It is loaded with denunciatory material and that it came from a liberal paper long associated with supporting the Clintons through thick and thin, I believe it speaks volumes about that white trailor trash couple. I would recommend to anyone else who would like the lowdown.
Fred, the Clinton s are out, not get on with Subway Talk, not bashing the Clintons.
You're right Bob. I'll let the liberal New York Observer do that. Read the editorial of February 28. It's a doozy. You've been off line for a few days. Are you that budy?
Just busy and fighting the flu
You're right Bob. I'll let the liberal New York Observer do that. Read the editorial of February 28. It's a doozy. You've been off line for a few days. Are you that busy?
Lazio was a poor candidate, no argument from me there, but ANYONE would be better than Hillary.
I don't vote for somebody just to vote against someone else. Now if Giuliani ran, the only problem would be to figure out whether to risk a Mark Green mayoralty.
I say it would be worth it.
I'm hoping against hope that she gets so enmeshed in "Pardongate" that she'll have to resign.
I'd rather that she be expelled. Senators have resigned plenty of times before, expulsions are rare.
Well said Peter. I know what you mean. I'm a public school teacher, and I know some schools are not so good, but the people you refer to wouldn't send their kids to public schools even if they were good.
Beacause Toys R Us started out as a local company (Children's Bargain Town on Long Island) people in the New York area don't realize it's just the toy store version of Wal-Mart. Home Depot and Lowe's are the hardware versions of Wal-Mart and Best Buy is the electronic store version of Wal-Mart.
Outside of a few people would would'nt buy a toy not sold from FAO Schwartz, there are thousands across the region who flock to Toys R Us come the Christmas holidays. But there's a certain pseudo-snobbish attitude among certain people who disdain the idea of ever going to Wal-Mart because it's not `elite' enough.
Philosophically, if you want to boycott it because of its non-union stance fine, but when a Toys R Us, or a Barnes and Noble, arrive in an area it knocks out mom-any-pop stores the same way Wal-Mart does, because they're cheaper (though one stop at the Starbucks in B&N and you blow your retail book discount).
As far as the NYC voters go, I found the most amazing recent thing the results of a poll this week saying that after all that's gone on in the past six weeks, 47 percent of New Yorkers still want to see Bill Clinton run for mayor. He's both too smart and too egotistical to want the job -- try to imagine Clinton having to go to former underling Andrew Cuomo in 2003 asking for money for the city's budget -- it ain't happenin' dude -- but you get the feeling some people would follow Clinton as far as Jim Jones' or Marshall Applewhite's followers went with them.
If that is the case J I'm afraid that New York City voters are even dumber than I thought. Perhaps there are enough smart ones to keep that cretin Mark Green out of Gracie Mansion, and that creep Andrew little Cuomo out of Albany. We can hope.
Interesting that you're so 'hot under the collar' regarding NYC politics yet you haven't lived here in almost half a century....:-O
Fred, might I sugguest you start your own website called www.nycpoliticsbyacalifornian.org???
BMTman
As for the first part of your post regarding my feeling about NYC politics, just figure that I don;t suffer fools lightly and New Yorkers have been fools in some of the people they have elected. You can name one now and if she doesn't make you ashamed you beyond being ashamed. As for the second part, well, who knows?
Howdy guy ... this will be my one and ONLY one comment on our new Senator - if she's a shark or a *itch, well she's OUR shark or *itch and so far, she's impressing this upstate republican. Why? Well, the unemployment rate upstate continues to climb to an average of more than 8% while more and more factories and other jobs go away. Mind ya, this is after nearly 8 years of biz-friendly George Paturkey and Joey Bruno (both affiliated with the correct party as you see it) and the devastation upstate just continues to get worse than the glory days of Abe Beame down in the chitty.
We pay 13 cents a kilowatt hour (which I believe trumps the worst of California's crisis prices every day here) for electricity and I work for a computer software manufacturer that has to do business on 36k modem dialups because that's all there IS up here. Imagine that! A "high tech company" having to operate with fax modems because a T-1 line HERE costs more per month than our entire profits ...
Hillary is the first to recognize these problems (our repubs including candidate Lazy-Oh still deny these realities) and keep telling us that they're going to bring upstate a shiny new "chip plant" ... we'll forget about Intel, we can't even get FRITO-LAY to move in here ... so far the lady's got the right issues and has already introduced a bill that if passed, might actually DO something for upstate. If this is the case, then the solid upstate republican block may vote "wrong" next time as they did this time for Hillary given that Lazy-Oh was just such a clueless loser.
But if she's a shark, she's OUR shark and she does seem to know who she's working for. I'll take that over photo-op politicos any day, especially those shouting "recession" in a crowded economy. No offense bro, but Hillary needs to prove herself like any New Yorker. I suspect she will succeed and so far, I admire what I'm seeing.
Again, this is my one and ONLY one comment on this out of my desire to play by the rules here and avoid any further political nonsense.
Selkirk: Well said. I don't like her at all, as you know, but you make a compelling argument and I admire your grit and point of view of why you support her. I can live with that. I also appreciate it that you didn't flame me while about it. You were a gentleman and made a strong defense for her. What I can't understand is why industry will not go to upper NY state? The country is picturesque, the people are pretty well educated, and there is room. It seems very strange to me. Anyway, please, not little Cuomo. He loves to spend other people's money just like his eloquent, but wet behind the ears father. Have a great weekend.
Thanks! Hillary has her four years ahead of her, we'll see how she does. When Al D'Amato stopped delivering the goods and made an ass of himself, he got his as well. And so it goes. Bad politicians are like dead light bulbs or diapers. Sometimes they need changing. We'll see.
Upstate has languished because of the dynamics of New York politics where the majority of the elected are from the general downstate area. It's expensive down yonder and the assumptions are that those of us up here in the woods take home just as much money as folks downstate. The costs of doing business are the same up here and the infrastructure is non-existent. Add to that the lack of technical education (which is what attracts industrial jobs) and you have a generally undesireable work force in technology. NYS has a BOCES program intended for technical education but there's no technical courses of any significance and BOCES acts more as a facilities administrator than an educator. This is part of it, but the insane utility rates and poor service coupled with the general costs of doing business in New York is the killer.
And as to Andrew Junior, no way. I'm planning on doing whatever I can to help Carl McCall get elected. Now there's someone with a clue as to how both update and downstate work and can tell the difference. We've all had our fill up here of Paturkey doing nothing but running up our bills even further than Padre Mario ... I think the energy crisis George's (ahem) "leadership" has given us will help the voters decide next time around. Once again, we'll see. Paturkey's had his 15 minutes. :)
Carl Mc Call sold Mike Bragman down the toilet, Between McCall and Paturkey, I'll vote for Paturkey McCall's GARBAGE He Will get NO SUPPORT from Central NY
"Hillary has her four years ahead of her,"
Is that a subtle reference to the possibility that the ex-first witch will run for the Whitehouse? I doubt that she will. If she planned to return, she would have left the furniture.
When one considers all the guff you have to take in that building, can't say I'd blame her for wanting to pass on the opportunity. One of the nicer things about being a congresscritter or senator is that unlike governors or mayors, you don't have to provide SERVICES, just maneuver that magic wand and be able to say the word "impeachment" without giggling. :)
If she planned to return, she would have left the furniture.
I don't blame them for taking the furniture. I'm sure that the Bushes would want new furniture anyway, instead of furniture soiled by Slick. :-)
Why, Pork, sometimes you're wise beyond your years.
Don't give up on Pork. I've gotten mad at him two or three times, but each time I forgive him and call him a valued colleague. He is an allright guy and he's way smarter beyond his years.
Not so Dude. That witch is brazen enough to steal and then try to go back to the scene of her disgrace and pilfer some more. She can save her energy. She will never be elected President. The rest of the country is not as dumb as those New Yorkers who sent her to the Senate.
A McCall-Cuomo primary battle will create problems for Hillary, and a lot of other area Democrats, since both candidates draw from core support groups in the Deomcratic Party, and if you openly back one, you're going to tick off their supporters. The nastier the race turns out to be, the bigger the problem.
As for whether or not the missus is going to run for president, because of her core support groups in the Democratic Party, Terry McAuluffe's place at the head of the DNC, the absence of any strong candidate on the left of the party right now and the fact that both the Democratic and Republican primary elections tends to draw out the ideologues in higher numbers, Hillary really won't have to decide until sometime in mid-2003, which will give her a longer time than other Democrats to see how Bush's numbers look before deciding.
And as for all the negative publicity she's stuck with right now, just let one Supreme Court judge retire or die, and the slate will be wiped clean, because that will be a far more polarizing battle than the current tax cut fight is and all the pardon stuff will go out the window if she emerges as one of the leaders of the "Stop (insert anti-abortion judge's name here)" movement.
And Hillary would still beat Lazio if the election were held tomorrow. New Yorkers(and I am one) are either dumb or just plain "asleep at the switch."
Carl M.
Not really. The Republicans shot themselves in the foot by putting a "Howdy Dowdy" candidate up against Hillary -- who despite what you might feel about her personally -- is a formidable debater and at least had a grasp of the issues, something that was sorely lacking with Mr. Geez-Whiz Lazio.
BMTman
At least your republican candidates get more than 15% of the vote.
Beacause Toys R Us started out as a local company (Children's Bargain Town on Long Island) people in the New York area don't realize it's just the toy store version of Wal-Mart. Home Depot and Lowe's are the hardware versions of Wal-Mart and Best Buy is the electronic store version of Wal-Mart.
Interesting way to put it. But you're right. Superstores like that aren't known as "category killers" for nothing.
Outside of a few people would would'nt buy a toy not sold from FAO Schwartz, there are thousands across the region who flock to Toys R Us come the Christmas holidays. But there's a certain pseudo-snobbish attitude among certain people who disdain the idea of ever going to Wal-Mart because it's not `elite' enough.
Give Wally World's management some credit. They've figured out that the company's aw-shucks-we're-just-plain-folks atmosphere probably attracts more shoppers than it drives away. Personally, I could care less about atmosphere; if a store has what I want at the best price, I'm satisfied. But apparently many people think differently. My only complaint with Wal*Mart's corporate philosophy is their refusal to sell CD's with those ridiculous "parental advisory" stickers. But that's a minor point.
Keeping things a bit more on-topic, I suppose one of the reasons why Toys R Us is more accepted in the NYC area is the fact that they've got many stores located in transit-friendly locations. Wal*Mart, it should go without saying, does not, though as I've said before that's likely an outgrowth of their store design and siting standards rather than reflective of any deliberate anti-transit bias.
Philosophically, if you want to boycott it because of its non-union stance fine, but when a Toys R Us, or a Barnes and Noble, arrive in an area it knocks out mom-any-pop stores the same way Wal-Mart does, because they're cheaper (though one stop at the Starbucks in B&N and you blow your retail book discount).
Barnes & Noble has gotten some criticism for driving small independent bookstores out of business, criticism which I believe is largely unjustified. You're right, however, about Toys R Us - who laments the loss of the neighborhood toy stores?
As far as the NYC voters go, I found the most amazing recent thing the results of a poll this week saying that after all that's gone on in the past six weeks, 47 percent of New Yorkers still want to see Bill Clinton run for mayor. He's both too smart and too egotistical to want the job -- try to imagine Clinton having to go to former underling Andrew Cuomo in 2003 asking for money for the city's budget -- it ain't happenin' dude -- but you get the feeling some people would follow Clinton as far as Jim Jones' or Marshall Applewhite's followers went with them.
I rest my case.
My point about the other box stores was that New Yorkers are more comfortable with mega-retailers like Toys R Us and Barnes and Noble because they're local, long-time businesses. But to people in Chicago, Los Angeles, Dallas, etc., they're the `dread' foreign invaders that took away business from their local stores beginning in the 1980s.
I think the CD policy is pretty stupid also, and there's no question that there are legitimate concerns about things like zoning and community disruption if a 195,000 square foot Supercenter parks its carcas in your neighborhood. If that's a problem, or if you don't like Wal-Mart because of it's union stance, or if you don't like it because of it's lack of community involvement, fine, don't go there. But if you don't go there because of the fact that it's one of those tacky `discount' places only the hoi polloi frequent, then don't go to B&N, don't go to Toys R Us, don't even think of going to that K-Mart on Eighth Street, and don't shop at Best Buy or Circuit City either if you want to be intellectually consistant.
A lot of people in New York recoil from Wal-Mart mainly because of its roots -- a discount store coming out of flyover hick country in Arkansas -- but the same people elected a Senator from flyover hick country and are apparently enraptured with the idea of a electing mayor from flyover hick country. Go figure...
Wal*Mart is different from all of those stores because it has urban locations and mall locations. ALL Wal*Marts are homogenous boxes in the middle of a huge parking lot.
All of those stores even have urban boxes, box stores with parking lots in otherwise urban locations.
"But the same people elected a Senator from flyover hick country"
she's from Chicago she just lived in Arkansans for 20 years.
And she also spent a long spell on the board of directors of the anti-union Wal-Mart, which I doubt a Chicago pol would have done, let alone one from New York State.
She may not have been born in Arkansas, but her actions definitely make her an honorary native daughter.
Barnes & Noble has gotten some criticism for driving small independent bookstores out of business, criticism which I believe is largely unjustified.
I'll have to disagree with you on this one, Peter. B&N has engaged in predatory practices at the wholesale distribution level that rival those of GM, Firestone, et al under the guise of National City Lines. The late Charles Kuralt's brother Wallace, owner of The Intimate Book Shop (a small chain that was based in Chapel Hill, NC) was one of their victims. They would delay shipments to him and other independent booksellers until after the books had been on sale in their own stores for a week or two, and charged wholesale prices that were higher than the retail prices in their own stores.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm not flaming anyone or responding to anyone in particular, just stating something...
This isn't PoliticoTalk. I know there are those with good political commentary and those with 3rd grade level comprehension of politics. As much as I enjoy a good political debate, the smart always seem to rile up the idiots, and vice-versa and that's how we get flame wars. So please, PLEASE! No more politics on the board. I like this place. There's nothing else like it on the net. There are thousands of places where you can bash Clinto are call NY voters dumb. This IS NOT one of them! THIS IS SUBTALK! So please everyone, let's get back on track (pun intended).
Well, since the threat began with Paul's post about the APTA press release on Bush's transportation budget, it was a thread that began in politics, and has since also mutated into a disussion about box store retailers -- which is actually even more off-topic than the political debate.
Politics is always going to work it's way into the board, probably even moreso with the mayoral election coming up. So long as the politicians control the MTA's pursestrings it's ineveitable the threads will end up on the board. But I understand where you're coming from about the threads degenerating into "you're one" "your another" type posts.
I agree. BUT, I resent the fact that someone can come on this board and attack via namecalling a friend and fellow SubTalker. THAT's totally uncalled for whether the subject is on topic or not.
Civility is not the strongest suit for one particular SubTalker who lives on the 'left coast'. He almost always gets riled up and name calls at the drop of a hat. Maybe he should be ignored? I might have to try that angle in the future. But he has got to 'grow up' and handle himself in a more civil and temporate manner if he does not want to get 'flamed' by others at this board. What goes around comes around, as the old saying goes...
BMTman
It depends who you're talking about concerning civility. I have no problems with Dude, Pete, Brighton Beach Bob, Big Ed, BMT Jeff, Hot Lunch, or a host of others. But you have a friend who likes to make snooty remarks and as long as he does I'm going to respond to his assinine posts. The Bronx as one whole city, and the other boroughs tossed out into the ocean. You call that anything but nonsense? He suggested that and I didn't want to let it go, ok? You read my posts to others and you'll find nothing of the sort of incivility you accuse me of. Just that one off the wall friends of yours with that silly and stupid peace signature======after he lampoons everyone. I'll tell you what. If my posts bother you so much, kill file them. Chances are you'd get bored and would be tempted to find out what this left coast animal is up to. Tell your buddy to cool his sarcastic answers and I'll cool mine.
The Bronx as one whole city, and the other boroughs tossed out into the ocean
I think that was a joke.
since when was jersey on the left coast
>>> people in the New York area don't realize [Toys R Us]'s just the toy store version of Wal-Mart <<<
That is not really true. Prior to Toys R Us there were no local toy stores. There were toy departments in department stores. What Toys R Us did was to provide a wider selection of one type of item, toys and games. As such it became a specialty store more than a discounter. I have not been a toy buyer for several years, but price was not what brought me to Toys R Us when I did shop for toys, and I was not even aware that prices there were lower than at department stores (if they were). I went there for convenience because I thought I would find all the toys I needed at one place and one time.
With WalMart, the problem is that price seems to be the only thing that is important. My perception is that better quality merchandise which can be found at main stream department stores such as Macy's is not there at WalMart. The real complaint about WalMart is when they come to town, they drive out of business the stores which have the full selection from cheap to expensive and leave only the possibility of purchasing cheap goods. The other problem is their tendency to censor the content of tapes and CDs they sell. (Same with Blockbuster.)
Although Barns & Noble (and Borders) are driving out independent booksellers, they seem to keep a good selection of books, and there is not a question of quality of the product. Crown Books, an earlier discounter was more of a problem because it had only a relatively small selection of best sellers sold at discount prices, taking away the bread and butter of independent book sellers without providing a wide selection.
The Home Depot and other big home improvement stores are doing to hardware stores what supermarkets did to mom & pop grocery stores. It may be sad to see the little guys go, but that is progress.
Tom
Whaddya mean "prior to Toys-R-Us there were no local toy stores???
I remember all sorts of local toy stores around New York City when I grew up there in the 1960's. And all sorts of local ones out here in California since then.
What about FAO Schwarz? I know, that's just for rich yuppies, and now they, too, have spread out across the country (they have units in San Francisco, Los Angeles, etc.)
I will agree with what you said about Wal-Mart and pricing. Problem is, they sell a lot of pure JUNK. Stuff that wears out or breaks rapidly. Sure they have a bigger quantity of selection, but the quality is NOT there. I try to avoid shopping in Wal-Mart just because of this -- though some name-brand stuff I buy regularly I will go there for (household cleaning supplies, etc.)
Crown Books seems to be fading out, out here in California. As you mentioned, they'd have a rather small selection of bestsellers, but most of the rest of the stuff in a Crown Book outlet was the "club book" variety -- simply generic material, the same stuff you'd see on the tables at Sam's Club or Costco (do you even have those in the NYC area?) I could never find anything of interest in a Crown stores, so now I have resorted to Barnes & Noble who seem to have a good selection in their outlets out here. The little one-of-a-kind bookstores seem to sell only stuff that wouldn't move anywhere else.
>>> I remember all sorts of local toy stores around New York City when I grew up there in the 1960's. And all sorts of local ones out here in California since then. <<<
I stand corrected. I was not aware of any toy stores. I guess my parents kept their existence a secret when I was a kid. I always got socks and underwear for Xmas.
Tom
I always got socks and underwear for Xmas.
Hey me, too. I look forward to Xmas because it allows me to change the only pair of underwear I have :)
That is really more than i needed to know
>>>Whaddya mean "prior to Toys-R-Us there were no local toy stores???
>>>I remember all sorts of local toy stores around New York City when I grew up there in the 1960's
The first Toys R Us opened in 1957.
With WalMart, the problem is that price seems to be the only thing that is important. My perception is that better quality merchandise which can be found at main stream department stores such as Macy's is not there at WalMart. The real complaint about WalMart is when they come to town, they drive out of business the stores which have the full selection from cheap to expensive and leave only the possibility of purchasing cheap goods. The other problem is their tendency to censor the content of tapes and CDs they sell. (Same with Blockbuster.)
It's not as if people have no alternatives. Target seems to offer higher-quality merchandise than Wal*Mart at only slightly higher prices. Granted, there aren't as many Target stores, but in most areas people have alternatives. K-Mart seems to be slightly higher in quality than Wal*Mart, although the difference isn't as significant as with Target.
I agree, I don't like Wal*Mart's censorship policy. One would think that sheer business sense would overcome any prudishness on the part of the company's management. Then again, the policy might be intended as a way of avoiding offending customers. Wal*Mart appeals to (a term I hate but can't avoid using here) Middle America, and many people in that population segment have no tolerance for vulgarity.
Actually, the Wal*Mart policy I disagree with most is the way in which they avoid building in urban, transit-friendly locations. No doubt there are significant economies to be realized through having a few store and location models. Even so, they might be pleasantly surprised if they went into urban areas. Surely the company is wealthy enough to be able to take a few risks.
One last thing, Blockbuster does not censor in the same manner as Wal*Mart. They will not carry any NC-17 rated videos or DVD's. While there are a very few "legitimate" NC-17 movies ("Henry and June" is the only one I can think of offhand), in practice the rating means pornography. I can understand why Blockbuster won't carry that stuff.
>>> it's not as if people have no alternatives. Target seems to offer higher-quality merchandise than Wal*Mart at only slightly higher prices. <<<
Actually I include Target and K-Mart in the same category as WalMart, but not as extreme. The full line department stores can only exist and provide better goods by relying on the large volume of sales in their lower priced merchandise. When discounters drain off the sales that used be made in the "bargain basement" of the full line department store, there is not enough business left for the higher priced, higher quality merchandise to cover the overhead. The logical result is that the main line department stores disappear and you are left with a choice of shopping for cheap stuff in discount stores, or expensive stuff in boutiques. Maybe this is just mirroring the increasing gap between the working class and the rich in this country.
>>> One last thing, Blockbuster does not censor in the same manner as Wal*Mart. They will not carry any NC-17 rated videos or DVD's <<<
This does become de facto censorship when movie makers know that if they make a film rated NC-17 it will not be shown in many theaters and the tape will not be carried by Blockbuster. Remember "Midnight Cowboy" began its life and won the Oscar as an X rated film.
Tom
But today,with the same content, "Midnight Cowboy" would probably be an 'R' rated movie.....
Midnight Cowboy was downgraded to R eventually.
Yeah, because of this pervasive mentality that there's eomthing "horrible" about NC-17 movies. A funny thing about blockbuster, though, is thye DO sell pornos that are the equivalent of an NC-17 flick, only they are unrated.
I've been wondering if the censorship [and I beleive a management has a right to follow conscience if such is the case] isn't thoughts of lawsuits if some merchandise is sold to "minors" depending on what and whom some people class as minors, and some rare parent sues them.
This is basically a pretty wide open society anymore but there are exceptions and the firm could be liable?? Or are they?
To cover another post on this thread I'll say for middle America and tolerance for vulgarity that IMHO is history, of course there are exceptions. I've lived in so-called middle America and have found to one degree or another that a
some places have no more "morality" then places people think of as being "sinful" such as PARDON my saying this.."ghettoes" and I mean the "" "". Listen to some country and western..but then again not all.
Of course, all of these "Parental Advisory" labels, and movie ratings aren't enforced by the governement. No recording studio has to label the CDs, no store has to do anything about them.
If my parents sued for something like this (they wouldn't, they're liberal about youth rights), I would sue them in response.
You are WRONG. Stores are coerced into restricting sales of those labeled products by boycotts and overly-conservative idiot moms in long gray skirts calling up and complaining "HOW could you let my teenager BUY something that someone somewhere might deem inappropriate, HOW IN THE WORLD would you give them any FREEDOM to do such a HORRIBLE thing?" The label has caused more harm than good. Before Parental Advisory, rappers and rockers walked around saying "bitch" and everyone thought it was edgy. Now, thanks to parental advisory, no rap or rock album can make the charts unless it has that sticker on it, which means seven million fucks. Tipper has worsened the language of the world. Whereby "fuck this fuck that" was the language of only some rappers, now the middle-class white trash rock bands who got whooped for saying "crap" in front of their moms talk like they grew up near the Stillwell terminal. Tipper IS the problem.
Before 1998, nobody was ever carded in a movie theater. Now, even though the MPAA ratings work on no government mandate whatsoever, most movie theaters card.
If I was waiting in line to buy a ticket and saw that underage people were turned away by the labor inefficiency (ticket seller), I'd offer to buy them the tickets.
Of course, I wouldn't be caught dead in a movie theater since the development of the digital video disc, since not only is it much more convenient to watch a movie at home, I don't feel like going some place where ticket collection is more inefficient and labor-intensive than on the MTA (and that says a lot). I don't feel like paying $8-$10 to support the salary of the young ticket seller and the old ticket taker.
Pork, you must have a really big-screen television, in order to be able to find watching ALL your movies on DVD "much more convenient" than the movie theater. While I don't know your preferences, I, and a lot of people I know, feel that certain movies were made for the big screen and lose some - or even a lot - of their interest when shrunk to the television screen, even a "big" television screen. Of course, there are plenty of movies that translate to the small screen just fine, too.
The only problem is resolution. All you have to do to get the big screen effect is SIT CLOSER TO THE TV. Not such a difficult thing to do.
Of course, I wouldn't be caught dead in a movie theater since the development of the digital video disc, since not only is it much more convenient to watch a movie at home, I don't feel like going some
place where ticket collection is more inefficient and labor-intensive than on the MTA (and that says a lot). I don't feel like paying $8-$10 to support the salary of the young ticket seller and the old ticket
taker.
I don't quite see how you can compare the labor efficiency of movie theaters and the MTA. Most theaters, especially the larger multiplexes, operate with what seems to be pretty decent efficiency. Eliminating the ticket sellers in favor of TVM's probably would cause unacceptably long lines. See how quickly the ticket sales take place, human element notwithstanding. Remember that one or two ticket sellers can cover several theaters within a multiplex - the nine-screen multiplex we most often go to generally has just one seller on duty, two during the very busiest times. And the ticket takers serve bascially a security purpose, keeping people from sneaking in without paying. Finally, in most multiplexes there is just one projectionist - usually by far the highest paid employee - to cover all the theaters.
I'm not saying that there's no room for further improvement with movie theater efficiency. The financial troubles besetting many chains, which for the record are caused by overcapacity rather than labor inefficiency, probably will lead to further progress. But clearly, the movie theater industry, indeed like most private sector companies, has made far more efficiency gains than the MTA ever will.
I don't quite see how you can compare the labor efficiency of movie theaters and the MTA. Most theaters, especially the larger multiplexes, operate with what seems to be pretty decent efficiency. Eliminating the ticket sellers in favor of TVM's probably would cause unacceptably long lines.
Not if they have a TVM only for prepurchased tickets on Moviefone, and a card that can be refilled online.
See how quickly the ticket sales take place, human element notwithstanding.
There is one disadvantage to them. The ticket sellers can enforce age restrictions. Of course, they can do it just like on the subway. The turnstile lights up with a particular aspect so the security guard can enforce.
Remember that one or two ticket sellers can cover several theaters within a multiplex - the nine-screen multiplex we most often go to generally has just one seller on duty, two during the very busiest times.
There can be less than one.
And the ticket takers serve bascially a security purpose, keeping people from sneaking in without paying.
That's what turnstiles do.
Finally, in most multiplexes there is just one projectionist - usually by far the highest paid employee - to cover all the theaters.
Well, I wasn't complaining about projectionists. I don't see anything wrong with that.
I'm not saying that there's no room for further improvement with movie theater efficiency. The financial troubles besetting many chains, which for the record are caused by overcapacity rather than labor inefficiency, probably will lead to further progress. But clearly, the movie theater industry, indeed like most private sector companies, has made far more efficiency gains than the MTA ever will.
The predecessors to the MTA have eliminated the ticket chopper and replaced the multiple conductors with just one. And they will DEFINITELY go 100% OPTO and eliminate all station agents in time.
I think all movie patrons should be required to have EZPass.
This will eliminate all labor costs associated with ticket
sales and collection. I like the idea of turnstiles but they
should be of the high (iron maiden) style only. The snack
counter should be replaced with an Automat. The upholstered
seats should be replaced with hard plastic and the bathrooms
must be re-tiled in the IND scheme and lit with bare incandescent
bulbs.
The upholstered
seats should be replaced with hard plastic and the bathrooms
must be re-tiled in the IND scheme and lit with bare incandescent
bulbs.
There's no need to be sarcastic. Up until that you were making sense!
Tipper has worsened the language of the world. Whereby "[deleted] this [deleted] that" was the language of only some rappers, now the middle-class white trash rock bands who got whooped for saying "crap" in front of their moms talk like they grew up near the Stillwell terminal.
Er, why is an upbringing near Stillwell Avenue associated with the use of obscene language? Inquiring minds want to know.
Stillwell TERMINAL
Coney Island isn't the peachiest of communities.
Actually, I think the increase in X-rated language falls into the same category as tounge piercing -- it's just getting harder and harder to piss off your parents nowadays. All Elvis had to do was thrust his hips out in 1956, while the Beatles just had to wear long hair to set people off in 1964. Now that the kids who supported those "radical" moves are parents and grandparents, it's tougher for today's kids to do something non-conformist that doesn't elicit a "been there, done that" attitude from mom and dad.
Ratcheting up the language on CDs, as well as some of the non-politically correct attitudes on some song lyrics are a way to piss off the 40- to 60-year-olds today, the same way they pissed off their parents back in the 50s, 60s and 70s.
I like it.
I think that the current decade shouldn't be called "the zeroes," that conveys a statement of emptiness and worthlessness, as if we are prepared to throw this decade on the ash heap of history come 2010. It should instead be called the "naughties." In additon to a play on the word naught, it shows a complete collapse of conservative moral values, something this country, and this planet desperately needs.
No, actually, the collapse happened in the 90s. We're just following on the heels of that. BTW, don't dis on anti-establishment rock bands, Rage Against The Machine is one of the few current rock bands I can actually enjoy (my musical styles are rap, 70s-80s rock, and swing)
I know. The 90s have been bad for morality and decency (which is good), but we need to go further, and throw off the chains of zero tolerance (except for zero tolerance against the religious wrong).
And I'm the last person to dis any kind of music that's either against the establishment, or is worthy of a parental advisory label (I'd replace the parental advisory with something that doesn't promote enslavement as much).
I think we need to differentiate between good censorship and bad censorship. Here's an example:
BAD CENSORSHIP:
I go to Fred Meyer to buy Outkast's new CD, Stankonia. Due to explicit lyrics, they require me to show my driver's license and prove that I am 17 or over in order to buy it.
GOOD CENSORSHIP: One store, WalMart, decides to only sell edited versions of CDs.
What's the difference? Let me start by saying that I DETEST Wal-mart. I HATE WALMART! WALMART SUCKS! With that out of the way, they have the right to sell what they want. If I want the real CD, I can go to almost any other store and get it for basically the same price. Besides, why would I want to go to Walmart anyway? BUT, i I want the edited version then Wal-Mart is usually the only place that sells it.
My friend and fellow child of the upper-middle-class, Liane, wanted Limp Bizkit's "Chocolate Starfish" CD for Christmas, but her parents would not approve of the 137 times that Fred Durst uses the word "fuck." So I went to Wal-Mart and got her the edited version. You know what? It was HORRIBLE. I walked into a crowded store full of crying children and moms with trailer park haircuts, merchandise on the floor, and believe me I was out of there in a jiffy. At Liane's party I said "you know I had to go to Wal-Mart to get this" to which she responded "Wow, you're braver than I thought."
I detest Wal-Mart. But I don't mind if they want to sell the edited versions of CDs. What makes me ABSOLUTELY SICK is the idea that we are IDing kids when they buy CDs - that my brother or my girlfriend, or even Liane herself (who doesn't turn 17 until this Wednesday) would not be allowed to buy the same CD that I am bumping. When any government censors, that's bad censorship. But if an individual retailer wants to be prudish, I say, more power to them.
one last note; WALMARTSUCKS!
My friend and fellow child of the upper-middle-class, Liane, wanted Limp Bizkit's "Chocolate Starfish" CD for Christmas, but her parents would not approve of the 137 times that Fred Durst uses the word [deleted]. So I went to Wal-Mart and got her the edited version. You know what? It was HORRIBLE. I walked into a crowded store full of crying children and moms with trailer park haircuts, merchandise on the floor, and believe me I was out of there in a jiffy. At Liane's party I said "you know I had to go to Wal-Mart to get this" to which she responded "Wow, you're braver than I thought."
Just curious ... did you actually count the number of times he used it?
"Trailer park haircuts" - now that's an interesting term!
Oh, to keep things on-topic, everyone says that Amtrak trains often are full of screaming ankle-biters. If you've ridden Amtrak, how would it compare in that respect to Wally World?
Oh, to keep things on-topic, everyone says that Amtrak trains often are full of screaming ankle-biters. If you've ridden Amtrak, how would it compare in that respect to Wally World?
Perhaps that's why Amtrak now has "Quiet Cars" on NE Corridor trains. No Cell Phone Yakkers, Screaming kids, or other disturbing things.
There were no obnoxious children on the Maple Leaf last summer, but there was one on the Adirondack who should have been on the receiving end of a roll of duct tape. In all fairness to the child, however, the parent's approach to discipline, such as it was, was far more obnoxious than the child's behavior.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, I did not count the number of times myself...I read that number in two different reviews of the CD, and it seems to match with what songs I've heard off that CD (namely, the songs that I've downloaded off of Napster)
"When any government censors, that's bad censorship."
For the record CD censorship is not informed by the government it is voluntary Tipper was in no official position when she pushed for the ratings.
I have my problem with Crown Books, because the Haft family nearly killed off Safeway back in the 1980s with their hostile takeover effort. The fact that the father turned against his wife and son over control of the company a few years later is part of the reason for Crown's problems.
As for Wal-Mart and its level of quality, the answer is it depends on what you want -- a 64 ounce bottle of Wisk is a 64 ounce bottle of Wisk, a quart of Pennzoil 10W-40 is a quart of Pennzoil 10W-40 and a package of 100 watt GE lightbulbs is a package of 100 watt GE lightbulbs whether you buy it at Wal-Mart or some other retailer, which usually charges higher prices. On the other hand, when I was in San Antonio before Chirstmas, I bought a pair of Wrangler jeans for a pretty low price, but they have to be made of the thinnest denim material I've ever seen. They'll probably either wear out or fade faster than a normal set of jeans, but the price-per-use may end up being the same as a costlier pair.
So long as there are cities with upper scale neighborhoods, there will be a place for stores like Macy's, Bloomingdales, Nordstrom, Dillards, etc., but Sears and J.C. Penney are the ones really getting hit by Wal-Mart, Target and K-Mart (which if they had kept their stores cleaner and developed an on-time inventory plan, wouldn't have gotten hammered by Wal-Mart the way they did in the 1980s and early 1990s).
You can tell people that the big stores like Wal-Mart ship their profits out of town and give little back to their communities, and that letting small stores fail will cost them in the long run, but that's a long-term argument to make, and for peoploe trying to save a buck or two right now, its hard for them to justify paying more, evne if the quality is a little better.
I can't figure it out myself. NYC voters (those from the 'burbs and Upstate are somewhat more enlightened) specialize in disgracing themselves each election. One possibility is that New Yorkers are simply below the national average in terms of intelligence. There's some evidence to support that position; for example, when states are ranked by their scores on nationwide academic tests such as the SAT, New York is usually quite low.
Even the Educational Testing Service (ETS) says that SAT scores aren't an adequate measure of average intelligence, since the sample is self-selected. More people in New York want to go to College, whereas elsewhere one can get by on one's toilet paper (HS diploma). Not to mention the fact that SAT scores are affected by one's preparation for them, socioeconomic status affecting that.
However if you look at other lists, you'll find other conclusions. New York always leads in the number of finalists in the Intel (formerly Westinghouse) Science Talent Search.
And if you look at the ... the things being churned out by NYC schools, you'll see what I mean.
No, I won't. You just take your stupid prejudice against all New York City public schools and shove it. I'm sure that it's oh so much better in all of those suburbs where the students massacre other students.
At least when students brought guns into urban schools, it was because of specific grudges against someone else, and not for random massacring.
Nevertheless, I don't think the reason for NYC's political ignorance is that city residents have low I.Q. scores.
So why mention it? The immaturish need to show how much better you suburbanites are better than urbanites? I don't think that people who choose to live in a WASTELAND are better. Throughout all history, when people vacated the cities, it was a sign of civilization ending.
No, the real problem is that way too many of them are hopelessly naive country bumpkins who are too thickheaded to realize that the world doesn't stop at the Hudson.
These people don't think the world ends at the Hudson. They travel to other cities, and are certainly familiar with other cultures. As opposed to the people in the concentric wasteland who believe that exposure to other cultures is achieved at the local Chinese restaurant (a chain run by white people who've never been to China).
Nowhere else can you find hordes of people who think they're oh-so-sophisticated because they can eat sushi with chopsticks
Not that eating sushi with chopsticks is a product of sophistication, but those in the concentric wasteland (subhumanites) can't claim any kind of sophistication.
name the 25 principal players in the New York Philharmonic
How many people can actually do that? Are you just yearning to be able to understand good music, or do you really think that most New Yorkers actually give a damn about what goes on at Lincoln Center?
and have seen at least 10 Broadway shows in the last three months
Considering how much they cost, nobody attends that many shows. But subhumanites can attend that many movies at the movie theater (the only private industry more labor-inefficient than the MTA).
yet have never driven a car
These Manhattanites you so disdain can afford to live in a place where primary transportation is many times more efficient (workable subways).
shopped in a Wal*Mart
Lucky people. That's all I have to say.
or supermarket
I guess you've never heard of Gristedes or D'Agostino. Small and overpriced but clean and well appointed supermarkets available only in Manhattan.
paid a mortgage
Never heard of condominiums or coops? And never heard of the high rents that people pay (much more than the mortgage on a pod in the concentric wasteland) just to live in Manhattan.
or sent a child to a public school.
Are you British or retarded? Didn't you just show talk about your mythical knowledge of public schools? If what you said was true, how could anybody in New York send their kids to public school?
With cretins like that, you get Hillary and Mario
That doesn't explain the cretins that elected Dumbya.
I can't figure it out myself. NYC voters (those from the 'burbs and Upstate are somewhat more enlightened) specialize in disgracing themselves each election. One possibility is that New Yorkers are simply below the national average in terms of intelligence. There's some evidence to support that position; for example, when states are ranked by their scores on nationwide academic tests such as the SAT, New York is usually quite low.
Even the Educational Testing Service (ETS) says that SAT scores aren't an adequate measure of average intelligence, since the sample is self-selected. More people in New York want to go to College, whereas elsewhere one can get by on one's toilet paper (HS diploma). Not to mention the fact that SAT scores are affected by one's preparation for them, socioeconomic status affecting that.
College attendance rates don't differ all that much between New York and most other states. Surely not enough to account for New York's mediocre performance. And if test preparation and socioeconomic status are important, then New York - a state with higher than average incomes - should do well.
However if you look at other lists, you'll find other conclusions. New York always leads in the number of finalists in the Intel (formerly Westinghouse) Science Talent Search.
Much too small a group to allow any conclusions to be drawn.
And if you look at the ... the things being churned out by NYC schools, you'll see what I mean.
No, I won't. You just take your stupid prejudice against all New York City public schools and shove it. I'm sure that it's oh so much better in all of those suburbs where the students massacre other
students.
At least when students brought guns into urban schools, it was because of specific grudges against someone else, and not for random massacring.
You're going to deny that NYC public schools aren't poor? Sure, there are schools like Stuyvesant and Brooklyn Tech, but they're very much the exception. Oh, and as far as prejudices are concerned, aren't you displaying the same thing by referring to the "massacres" in suburban schools?
No, the real problem is that way too many of them are hopelessly naive country bumpkins who are too thickheaded to realize that the world doesn't stop at the Hudson.
These people don't think the world ends at the Hudson. They travel to other cities, and are certainly familiar with other cultures. As opposed to the people in the concentric wasteland who believe that
exposure to other cultures is achieved at the local Chinese restaurant (a chain run by white people who've never been to China).
Are you saying that suburbanites never travel and are hopelessly unsophisticated? Bzzzt! You're wrong, that just isn't true anymore.
or supermarket
I guess you've never heard of Gristedes or D'Agostino. Small and overpriced but clean and well appointed supermarkets available only in Manhattan.
Those places wouldn't last a minute if they faced any competition.
paid a mortgage
Never heard of condominiums or coops? And never heard of the high rents that people pay (much more than the mortgage on a pod in the concentric wasteland) just to live in Manhattan.
Even with condos and coops, home-ownership rates in NYC are far below the national average. And I think paying thousands a month in rent is crazy - it's money down the toilet.
Are you saying that suburbanites never travel and are hopelessly unsophisticated? Bzzzt! You're wrong, that just isn't true anymore.
I'm not saying that suburbanites don't travel. I'm saying that unlike as you believe, New Yorkers are not sheltered.
And I think paying thousands a month in rent is crazy - it's money down the toilet.
There are people willing to pay that. If pod colonies in the concentric wasteland costed that much, nobody would bother with them.
The only disadvantage of living in Manhattan is the inability to practically keep a car. Mass transit might be more efficient, but there are lots of places where it isn't, and I don't want to be isolated from them.
Hey, don't call me a cretin. I voted for Bush and I'm proud of it. He is going to surprise a lot of people just as he did in Texas. He has his father's basic goodness, but he has his mother's iron. He will get things done, not like your boy Bill who talked a good game but got absolutely nothing done in Medicare, Social Security, education, or military improvement.
If he can tell the rest of the republicans where to stick it, W. will do alright Daddy's personal philosophy was far more LIBERAL than he was allowed to govern and Mommy was really a class act Who knows, maybe W. can save the Republican party. No, Bush voters are not cretins, they are just a little less nauseated by the republicans than the democrats BUT AT LEAST THEY MADE A STATEMENT FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE even if I happen to vehemently disagree with that statement, Be respectful and work to see that more people participate and vote. This is my only response to this thread
Thanks John. But don't get the impression the work is done for GWB. I happen to believe very strongly he has to reach out to Hispanics and African-Americans as he did in Texas, and I believe that next time he will get much more than 38% of the Hispanic vote since he very pro=Hispanic. Blacks might be a tougher sell for him since they seem wedded to the Democrat Party, but he will get more than 9%. He will have to show AA's that he really gives a damn about them.
This implies to me that the funding increase is due to a law already on the books. The APTA prez praising Bush is understandable- gotta play ball with whoever is on the field. He's an oilman, oilmen like cars.
But the point is he could easily have blocked the increase.
Nixon blocked mass transit funding very effectively by simply having Cap Weinberger in the OMB refuse to spend the money.
By making this announcement, he's saying he will support rather than oppose it. He also announced increased funding for Amtrak infrastructure.
Since the conventional wisdom now is that presidental elections are decided in the suburbs (inner cities vote Democrat, rural areas vote Republican), an increase in mass transit funds makes good political sense for Bush, as more cities look at light and heavy rail systems to get away from the highway gridlock suburban commuters have come to dread over the past 30 years.
Overall there are still more trogladite it's-my-right-to-drive-my-car-anytime-and-anywhere-I-want pols on the Republican side of the aisle who think only poor Democrats use mass transit (hello Tom DeLay), but when an ultra-conservative like Richard Vigurre is a major rail backer, that perception is not as accurate as 30 years ago.
Tom DeLay, I despise that man.
I'm glad he didn't become speaker there a case where the reps got it right.
Agreed, DeLay, the name says it all
Peace,
ANDEE
You get more ridiculous by the hour. You sure you didn't get hit with some missile in the head while traversing in your beloved South Bronx?
He has the barest of majorities in Congress. Blocking a mandated increase would have cost him precious politcal capital, and isn't the spin he needs in his first weeks in office. What he isn't doing is pushing for an increase like Gore likely would have.
Further I didn't see anything to say that HE made an announcement, so it's more like some low priority thing a deputy press aide typed up and faxed out. The APTA folks were trying to reconcile transit with his outline for America, implying he said NOTHING about mass transit in his televised speech:
"Balanced investment at the federal level will ensure that our transportation system fully supports the priorities outlined by President Bush "
Which means he probably said some such and such about the need to keep goods and people moving.
Doesn't surprise me. Transit is not necessarily a Democratic thing, no matter what's often said.
The reason republicans tend to be in favor of transit it they come from states that don't need it. How many of the republican states have transit. Georgia Texas Florida Utah no matter how little money you have if you live in Kansas a subway will do you no good.
Dumbya must have offered the President of APTA a ride on a submarine. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
For the first time in my life, I actually got to ride R40 slants on the J train this morning on my usual train (6:16 out of JC), and to my suprise, I got the same set of slants on the trip home (16:30out of Broad)! #4424 and #4408 were the only 2 cars #'s I can remember.
That is HIGHLY unusual.
Yup, one in a million. Watch, I'll never get to ride slants on the J ever again....LOL.
I got to ride an R62A up White Plains Road in August of 1999 (#5 Thru Express). That ain't never gonna happen again either.
Chris R27-R30.
That posting of yours about the Slant R40's on J train. Is the #201,000 posting on subtalk. So lets say.
Hiphip Horway to Chris R27-R30 for his 201,000 posting on subtalk.
Dominick Bermudez.
no one cares about post #201000. there are 1000 every 2 or 3 days.
No it is NOT 201,000 -- it is 201,007. You missed by SEVEN.
Why don't we all just cut this out now before it gets out of control.
I tell ya, Uncle Dave ... it's them damned reality teevee shows that has everyone thinking that if they eat an insect, then you owe 'em a prize. (grin) So ... like ... whaddoo I win for posting the 200,000th message? A free visit from the loogiehawk? :)
And you posted post number 201163!!!
JK.
I must say, it is nice to hear the big numbers, (100,000, 200,000) but I will always want to know the webmaster posted post 201163 on Fri Mar 2 09:23:36 2001.
Big fing deal. Whay do people see the need to waste posts announcing the number of posts there are?
-Hank
The Slant R40's that you got on must came from the L Train. You went on the Slants 2 Times on the J Train. You are lucky baby.
Today must be your lucky day.
Dominick Bermudez.
That is very strange, though I have an even stranger situation every day.
If I go for the F that gets me to school with 20 minutes to spare in the AM and the third F after school I will see the same exact E northbound in the AM at Continental and southbound in the PM pass Van Wyck Blvd. What's so strange? This formula works every day, despite my school schedule being 8:46A-2:00P on some days and 8:05A-1:15P on others.
I saw slants on the "L" in 1993 and have seens them on the "L" since then. Usually you see R-40Ms on the "J" rather than the slant R-40s. Sometimes you might see the R-42s on the "J". Recently they transferred some more Slant R-40s to the Eastern division so you might see Slant R-40s on the "J" more often. BTW congratulations on posting the 201,000th message.
BMTJeff
We rode on a slant R-40 L train last October through the 14th St. tunnel. First time in 30 years for me. I was still picturing BMT standards and R-7/9s as we rolled along.
It is unusual to see the J using the slants car. In fact, I do no that they're from the L. I guess this means that R143 has finally taking over the L lines.
I guess this means that R143 has finally taking over the L lines.
Since the R143 hasn't been delivered yet, I guess you're wrong.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I say that the Slants will be running the J Line when the R-143's come to the L Line.
Dominick Bermudez.
(R-143 has finally taking over the L line)
R-143's is not at MTA right now. There's a photo of one when it's being Bulid in Japan on www.nycsubway.org. About some R-143's are comming sometime by the End of this year.
Dominick Bermudez.
Was just coming down from the crew rooms through the tunnel beyond the station with my class group around 11 or so. Typical 42/40M consists were laid up,and some people were being shown the differences. Right as we reach the platform, the slant pulls up on J1. Both me and he instructor were shocked, but I had ridden one on the Z a few weeks earlier to my old job, so I knew they were surfacing there occasionally. It was only going to Eastern Pkwy for the G.O., so I figured they just yanked an L out of the yard for it (they will often do this). 4442-3 were in the consist also. (By the time it pulled out we were watching it on the control board on the other end of the station.
I'm not surprised slants were on the J. They share a yard with the slants. What's even stranger is seeing R-32 units on the A. A's don't really op outta Pitkin.
Yeah they do. After the PM rush one can see many trains run light from Far Rockaway into Pitkin. In the AM several sets are pulled out and and go into service. I assume some Lefferts trains start/end at Pitking since there aren't any at night.
If you had told me that in 1968-69, I would have agreed with you. Imagine my surprise one Saturday when a northbound A train of R-32s pulled into 14th St. They must have been short on R-10s.
When i got to 1250 Broadway & there were alot of people line up getting ready to get into office. When this lady came out & start calling out for B/O, Condutor, Traffic Checker & STATION AGENT? U say before u got hired for Station Agent & they are not hiring after than but they still hiring Station Agent. I ask the guy who work there & he say MTA still hiring Station Agent. I was suprise that i thought they are not hiring station agent anymore until furture notice. Any way i spent 2 half hour there today talking about what is traffic checker is about & i will get a letter soon to go back 1250 Broadway.
Peace
David Justiniano
www.geocities.com/justin2669/NYCTransiTrans.html UPDATED!!!
Well that's surprising. I was given the impression by those folks that my class was the last one for a while. Perhaps they changed their minds. Surprise, surprise. In a time when Transit wants to put the S/A's outside of the booth as Customer Service Reps and assisting the passengers, they're still hiring. As is, there was supposed to be S/A cuts. What gives?
-Stef
Well that's surprising. I was given the impression by those folks that my class was the last one for a while. Perhaps they changed their minds. Surprise, surprise. In a time when Transit wants to put the S/A's outside of the booth as Customer Service Reps and assisting the passengers, they're still hiring. As is, there was supposed to be S/A cuts. What gives?
-Stef
Well that's surprising. I was given the impression by those folks that my class was the last one for a while. Perhaps they changed their minds. Surprise, surprise. In a time when Transit wants to put the S/A's outside of the booth as Customer Service Reps and assisting the passengers, they're still hiring. As is, there was supposed to be S/A cuts. What gives?
-Stef
Sorry to hear that you won't be a footnote in the history books my friend :-(
Mr t
Is it true that under present routing Q trains sometimes Run up broadway as expresses? I've never seen this done (aside from Manhattan Bridge Re-route, mid 90's)
Very, very rarely I've seen a Q on Broadway. I'm not sure how they get there with the southside MannyB tracks closed. Must be the Montague Tunnel. But the Q is finally coming home to the Broadway Express, hopefully for good, with the bridge-flip this July.
:-) Andrew
OK: As you know, Q trains start at Queensbridge, normal routing is 6th Ave/Bridge/Brighton, however, 4-5 scheduled trains {I believe the schedule is always the same and they go every hour or 90 minutes} start from Queensbridge, and instead use Broadway and Montague. I believe they're trying to rev up the Bway Exp tracks and wash the cobwebs off {not that there are any} so that when they get bombarded by both local and exp Qs as well as Ws in June, they will not show flaws.
This was done when they were working on the interlocking north of 50th St. on the southbound tracks. With the slow order for both Q's and D/B's it held up service so they sent a few Q's down Broadway.
Now there is no more slow order, all Q's go via 6th Ave.
I rode on a rerouted Q up Broadway last October. It was quite a surprise to see it sitting on the express track at Union Square. I jumped on board as fast as I could. It was the good old days all over again, zipping past 23rd and 28th.
There are switches south of DeKalb Ave. from the Brighton line which allow access to the tunnel tracks.
In addition to connecting the 6th Av. local tracks to the Williamsburg Bridge, the TA should have done the following:
The 6th Av express tracks should have been connected to the outermost tracks on the Nassau St. line after Bowery. The connection could be useful in a number of ways: 1. that pesky Manhattan Bridge thing.
2. get more use out of the Nassau Line. 3. Eliminate the M running to Bk., as few people ride it (rush hours it sees some crowds)
Anyway, Canal St. express tracks could be used as a turnaround for the J/M/Z if the B&D were run down that way. Build a scissor (X) switch and use the southbound express platform for M, northbound for express. This link would certainly be more profitable than the present 6th av/Nassau connection.
By "M" to Brooklyn, I take it you mean SOUTH of Manhattan. North of the Willy B Brooklyn-Queens serivice is, of course, the whole point of the "M".
Just busting chops!
:-) Andrew
"North" of the Willy B? I didn't think the Willy B ran like that.
Just busting chops.
Yeah well....Uh you're right. I love how a "northbound" E or F train is going almost due south at Van Wyck Blvd. (and is going southeast along with the "nothbound" G and R for four or five miles.) In fact, the E's "north" terminal isn't much more north than its "south" terminal, if at all.
:-) Andrew
My 8:29am N21 was running late as usual, but managed to make it to Flushing by 9:35am. Got the 7 express, with mainline R36's. 9555 was the lead car number. I notice mainline R36's have square windows that are different than Corona.
Got the 11AM train out of Grand Central.
It was an M-1. The first car was closed, so I got in the 2nd car. The train was in much better shape than the LIRR electrics. It was clean, and had better lighting and clear windows. Also the train looked shinier too.
After a crawl through the many switches at GCT, we entered the Park ave tunnel. It was one fast ride through there, and right on through Harlem on the el, everything was flying by.
Even over the bridges, we flew. In the Bronx the fastest speeds were reached while we in the open cut, it looked like 80mph or more.
We made one stop at Fordham in the the Bronx, the rest were skipped. The New Haven line branches off to the east after Woodlawn. Still no catenary visible (where does the Conn trains switch to Overhead?)
Once we got to Westchester it was all stops. But the speed was pretty good. Got to White PLains in about 40 minutes.
Both malls were in good walking distance. White Plains is a city, so sidewalks and pedestrian friendly crossings are everywhere.
The Galleria was on the low-end style, though the food court was nice.
I liked the Westchester much better. Even though it has only two anchors (Neimans and Nordstrom) the mall is quite large. There's like 3 floors, and 2 of them are carpeted!! The food court was nice as well. The Westchester was reasonably busy, the Galleria was pretty empty.
I got 4:23pm express back to Grand Central. It was another M-1, fortunately this time the front was open.
Very good speed through Westchester, everything just flew by, even with the curves, there doesn't seem to be much speed restriction.
Once we got to the Bronx things slowed down noticably, there was a train in front of us. Still we managed to geta t least 60mph in some parts of Harlem, right before the tunnel.
There was a train visible right in front of us in the tunnel, so it slow, but it still felt like we got to Grand Central pretty quickly.
Several observations about Metro North cars and road. Signals are only at switches and look like subway signals, but flash. The four trackways in the Park ave tunnels aren't seperated. You see trains going in the other direction whizzing by to your left. Pretty cool. The tunnel is in much better shape than the LIRR/Amtrak E.River tunnels. No major leaks, good lighting,etc.
The ASC in the trains is different than LIRR. THe speedometer is analog, and the overspeed warning is a beeping, not a bell.
In Westshester there are cast iron electric poles, but they appear unused (substations are full of weeds). I also observed older electric cars (pre M-1) running out of service going through White Plains. The seating looked totally different.
Also went through Mott Haven (all MNRR trains go through there) and saw an old engine. Trains seem to go through that main junction pretty quickly. Too bad LIRR trains crawl at their main junction (Jamaica).
Saw a diesel set going northbound at White Plains. Stopped on a dime. Those Genesis sets are awesome. Maybe when I return I'll try out a diesel and see what they're like (they run those trains non stop between GCT and White Plains).
All in all Metro North is a much better operation than the LIRR. Even the tickets are different. They are strips.
On the way back I got in a rear car of the 7 train to Times Square at GCT, and it became at 7X so I got the window. Now i've never seen anybody do that with the railfan window, but quite a few people remained seated at Times Square, obviosly the board the train at GCT, ride back to TSQ just for a seat.
Had a real gutsy T/O. She pushed the timers, often within seconds of clearing. It was a fun ride.
Got off in Flushing and went straight to the bus stop. 5:43pm, probably missed the 5:40pm N21.I just wanted to get outta there (you'all know I hate Flushing) and got an N20 to Great Neck.
Then an N21 passes us on Northern Blvd. I do a gutsy move. I get off at Northern and Middle Neck road, cross over to the eastbound side of N.Blvd, and sucessfully catch the N21. That whole Great Neck LIRR diversion can really be a blessing sometimes.
Happy to report there were no Cummins today! :-)
Or any Bee Line buses. :-(
We made one stop at Fordham in the the Bronx, the rest were skipped. The New Haven line branches off to the east after Woodlawn. Still no catenary visible (where does the Conn trains switch to Overhead?)
Between Pelham and New Rochelle.
The Galleria was on the low-end style, though the food court was nice. I liked the Westchester much better. Even though it has only two anchors (Neimans and Nordstrom) the mall is quite large. There's like 3 floors, and 2 of them are carpeted!! The food court was nice as well. The Westchester was reasonably busy, the Galleria was pretty empty.
Did the Penney's in the Galleria have "going out of business" signs up yet?
I'm not surprised that the Galleria was pretty empty. Not only is it low-end, as you noted, but it's been hit hard by competition from the Palisades Mall in Rockland County.
I also observed older electric cars (pre M-1) running out of service going through White Plains. The seating looked totally different.
Those cars - I can't remember their number designation - date all the way back to the New York Central days in the early 1960's. Their seatbacks can be flipped, as is the case on some New Jersey Transit cars. They'll probably be gone in a couple of years, but are still in reasonably good shape.
MNRR flashing Green signal means follow cab signaling. You only get signals at interlocking everything else is cab signal.
The older MNRR electric cars are called the 1100 series.
So what runs are the 1100 series on? Would be interesting to see what an older electric commuter train set is like. Only commuter electrics I've been on are M-1/M-3.
So what runs are the 1100 series on? Would be interesting to see what an older electric commuter train set is like. Only commuter electrics I've been on are M-1/M-3.
They're run on some of the Harlem line locals that terminate at North White Plains. They might also be used on some Hudson line locals to Croton Harmon, I'm not sure.
You'll love this:
Last year, the very train you took back used to be an ACMU-1100 run. Now, that train deadheads back directly in front of the in-service M1 you were on. Train #558 (1:27 PM out of N White Plains) was the first ACMU trip I was ever on, and also my first inbound Metro-North trip. That train has also been replaced with an M1.
Somewhere on this page is a list of all the runs I could count. There is also one on the 6:35 PM to North White Plains, I'll add that to the page sometime. Inbound I've no idea what they are.
Penney's did have going out of business signs up and was quite dingy.
So does anyone know what runs they use those older electric cars that I saw on MNRR? I didn't see any "in service", just out of service.
>>>So does anyone know what runs they use those older electric cars that I saw on MNRR? <<
Are THESEthe type you are talking about? If so they are dual modes, I think.
Also, they are newer than the M-1s, much newer, fyi
Peace,
ANDEE
Are THESEthe type you are talking about? If so they are dual modes, I think.
The picture shows some of the newer Bombardier diesel coaches. The 1100's are very boxy looking, something like a R32 or R38 without the corrugations.
He's talkin about these boys:
The doors are hinged and are manually operated. Turn the knob and pull to get out. You must have an IQ greater than that of a subway rider to use these cars.
Some cars still have the old NYCentral No Spitting (etc) signs on the inside. Once, every car had a bathroom. These are the only single unit MUs anywhere in the MTA railroads.
Here is a picture of the 1100s back in the day of the PCRR. Note the low platform station with third rail. This is Marble Hill, used to have two low side platforms, and that is the 1/9 directly above. Station is today a block further away with one island platform, requiring fancy switching operations around Sputen-Duyville for trains to platform.
Another current pic:
Yes, those were the ones. It looks similar to the diesel cars, but they do seem more "boxy".
Yup, I think those were the ones.
Actually a correction to my earlier reply, I saw the pics Henry posted and those were the cars. They were going by White Plains fast so I couldn't get that great a view of them.
Part 2 of this installment concluded tonight with the movement of Cars 8001-05 from 239th Street Yard, with an R-62A used as a tow motor again. Consist was N-8005-04-03-02-01-2360-59-58-57-56-S. For this movement, there were three persons on board as was the case last night. Two of which were train operators, while the third guy was to act as a flagger in the front of the disabled R-110A set.
The transfer was trailed by R-62As 2301-05.
Notes of interest: 8006-10 were still lighted on the interior with the side destination signs still lit, but not displaying anything. Tail lights were also illuminated. 8001-05 on the other hand, were completely dark, and a flashing red lantern was used at the end of 8005.
I start to wonder now what will become of the Museum R-12/14 Set at 239th Street Yard. They aren't going off to scrap or anything like that, but with space for cars now in demand, they'll have to find a new home. Anyone has any details on this or any other related items, share it with us.
-Stef
Something's going on with these R-110A's. Does anybody connected with 207th St shops know anything ?
Bill "Newkirk"
That was the second half of the delivery to 207th Street Shop. The first half was transfered on Wednesday night. Though nobody knows what there doing with it. I had originally posted that they were gonna be scrapped. This is what I heard from a TSS that works with the R-142. But, it is definate that the R-110A will not see another day of passenger service. The TA was offered to have the trainset rebuilt, but the quickly declined. This is from a VERY reliable source. I do know the head technician from Kawasaki, if I see him, I'll get more info for you all. I'm not one who likes to post ludicrous rumors.
I would bet the TA hasn't decided. They'll probably put them in the main shop, play with them, and after awhile a few suits will make the ultimate decision.
I can confirm for sure that they are here and were spotted rolling downtown tonight. These cars arrived on 2/16/01, the day before 6401-05 were brought up to the East. I wonder where they were going?
On a related note, 6446-50 also travelled to an unknown location although a good guess is the shop forces at 207th Street were going to look at them.
-Stef
Now that the fourth deadline for resuming monorail service has been missed, PA officials stated that they will no longer predict when service will resume.
Electrical problems surfaced during test runs and Adtranz people are trying to figure out what the problem is.
Story in Friday's Star-Ledger.
Forshadowing for AirTrain?
AirTrain is not a monorail.
Where are the monorail apologists now?
>>AirTrain is not a monorail.
But the installation is being overseen by the same people!!
PORT AUTHORITY, the same problems will plague Airtrain as the installation of the Monorail. THEY DON'T LEARN FROM MISTAKES.
Perhaps the contractor doesn't learn either. One of the big problems with the monorail was that it apparently never occurred to the contractor (or the PA, for that matter) that there might be heavy snow and ice conditions in the northeast. That created the original design flaw.
The lack of planning for weather is just too common. The B-2 stealth bomber cannot operate in rain or fog -- the water on the skin makes it stand out like it had lights on!
These weather issues affect monorail much more than steel rail
Would it have been possible or practical to extend either the
- Newark City Subway/NERL/HBLR or similar technology
- PATH
to Newark Airport and have it serve the parking lots and the terminals?
I noticed that on a drawing of the DOCK interlocking that the signals might be connected to the mileage. For example, signal 780Z is near the 8 mile marker. Where are the zeroes on PATH, and what do the information on PATH signals mean?
I can help a little:
PATH has two types of signals:
Z and X. A Z singal corresponds to NYCT automatic signal while an X signal controls a crossover or diverging/converging route.
Z signals also have a double yellow which serves as a speed control/timer.
X signals are similar to old IRT--one aspect will be red. A signal or red over green means green for ther diverging route. The L or R after the name such as LA12X/LA12B indicatesd the diverging route is Left or Right.
I've often wondered why I never see R-62's on the 2 or 5 IRT lines, but only on the 1,3,4 and TS shuttle lines. I'm sure it has something to do with the yards where they are serviced, but that would be guessing.
Anyone know?
Thanks.
R62A cars run on the 5 line. The Dyre Shuttle runs OPTO, thus requiring the R62 cars. Sometimes they run on the 5 line. A strange thing about the R62 cars on the 5 line. Even though the train terminates at Bowling Green between rush hours, the sign still says:
Dyre Avenue
<5>
Flatbush Avenue
It's strange that they change the signs on the redbirds, but not on the R62 cars.
But below Dyre Avenue they don't run on the 5? And what about the 2?
When the cars were ordered they were divided between GE (R-62) and WH (R-62A) control, as part of the negotiation process. Actually, the R-62As and R-68s were almost single-handedly responsible for WH decision to remain in the traction equipment field at the time. GE was then supplying just about everything.
There were just about enough R-62s on order to provide for the #4, which at the time was considered to be the WORST of the GE lines (2, 4, 5). In fact, before 1976, these three lines had a common fleet. The greater number of WH cars under R-62A was enough to replace all but the WH R-29s (8570-8687) and R-36s assigned to the 6. 240 (1), Livonia (3) and Westchester (6) have historically been "Westinghouse" facilities. 239 (2), Mosholu (4) and East 180 (5) are GE facilities. Thus, the conversion of all former WH R-26, 28 and 33 cars (except WF) from WH to GE during the GOH process.
As well, the use of R-62s on the 4 and 62As on the 1, 3 and 6 assured two lines on each side of Manhattan with at least a majority of new cars. Use on the Grand Central Shuttle was dictated by a requirement for single cars and standardization. Further, the 5 is basically a "part-time" operation, so the older cars build up mileage at a slower rate.
With all these new cars having identical control systems made by Alstom, the traditional IRT practice of separating assignments based on control type, will likely fade away, and as we may see in the future, there will probably be at least one instance of mixed GE R-62s and WH R-62As (possibly on the 4). I doubt they'll actually be run together in train sets, but they can MU.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
WOW! So interesting! I had no idea that WH/GE helped determine car assignments. I wonder if this is done on the B div as well.
This isn't done on the B division. Coney and 207th are the great yards that can handle anything. so both WH and GE go there. And, r-32's are the greatest example: they were re-built with some WH's and GEs in Phase I and some WH's and GE's in phase II.
Just as a response to this post, there are a scant few # of R-62's on the 5 line. Once, during a problem, a 5 was routed up 7th Av., and an R-62 ran on the 2 line.
I've seen 1 R-62 #5. It was at Borough Hall heading for Flatbush at the PM rush. While standing at Borough Hall watching, I saw five straight #4s, 3 of them redbirds heading out to Utica, before I finally saw a surprising R62 on a 5 heading for Flatbush. Something was probably wrong at the time. This was well over a year ago.
Nothing wrong. The 4 has some R33s and the 5 has a few R62As.
If you pay attention on the 6, you will see some cars carry black Unionport/E 180th Street Yard stickers. These cars were sent to the 6 in exchange for the R62As for OPTO. The R62As on the 5 have the yellow Pelham stickers. I saw one of these trains at Bowling Green in June but didn't catch the unit number. All that I noticed was the yellow Pelham stickers.
Today of all days Saturday they where running a R62A to Bowling Green but only for one trip. I felt very lucky to have gotten that train for one of my trips.
The Next Conductor was looking foward to take the R62 back down the road but the Dispatcher layed up the R 62 and put in a R 26.
Well what about the #2 line? My home line got no R62s and it was and still is a full time line. It deserved R62s just as much as the #4 line. Trains broke down often on the 2 line back in the pre-R62 days and my dad came home from work just about every other day complaining about his horrible ride on the "old stinky #2 train."
I did see R62s operate on the 2 for a brief period in 1984. My dad was fortunate enough to have caught R62s on the 2 a couple of times during that period and except for the little kid-sized orange seats, he liked them. I wished I could have ridden them at the time and thought the 2 should have had them on a permanent basis. But no, the TA had to go and shaft the 2 line. They just had to stick us with those awful R26, 28 and 29 cars.
Why???
Why? Because the're stupid! Just kidding. I guess the TA decided that the 1/9 and the 4 and 6 deserved them because the cars on those lines were in a very bad state of disrepair, even worse than those R26/28/29 cars. Or maybe because they thought that the 1/9 or the 3 would be better off with better cars than the 2. Then again, they have their own little reasons.
As for R62A's on the 2? I saw that before, just last year. The R62A's that were on the 5 (which came from the 6 line) came to the 2 for a brief trip from 241 St to Flatbush before they were returned to the 5 line. Anyway, the TA has better plans for us "old stinky 2 train" riders in the next two years. We'll be seeing a change when we get those R142's running on a regular schedule.
We'll see, we'll see...
CWalNYC (8^)
Yeah, now the 2 and 5 are getting new cars. Now that I'm away in college and can't ride them on a regular basis. Now that I'm planning to leave NYC because affordable NYC housing is something that does not exist. And it seems like every time I do go home, they're not in service. They're all sitting in Unionport Yard. I can find as many as ten sets of new cars sitting in the yard while nothing but Rustbirds on the 2. The subway gods seem to love screwing the 2 line and the many people who depend on it.
So as far as I'm concered, the subway gods can go on screwing the 2 line and its riders. But I for one am not gonna take it anymore.
After 10 years on lobbying, the LIRR announced that beginning March
19th 2001, there will be train leaving Far Rock at 5:54 am, bridging
a 70 minute gap in service between 5:18 and 6:28.
I have been asking for this periodically for over 10 years.
Halleluyah!!!
Next project: Eastbound early morning service to Mineola from NYP.
I noticed that too. Also, there is no westbound service between 5:40 PM and 6:40 PM. For the "Main Line" service is certainly poor.
How'bout that Greenport branch though? The only train usable by AM peak riders requires a change at Ronkonkoma and Jamaica. They couldn't schedule it to connect to a Penn station train?
How'bout that Greenport branch though? The only train usable by AM peak riders requires a change at Ronkonkoma and Jamaica. They couldn't schedule it to connect to a Penn station train?
Greenport trains arrive in Ronkonkoma about 6:50. The next train out, at 6:57, indeed is a Brooklyn train, but there's an express to Penn just a few minutes later. I usually take the Brooklyn train and change at Jamaica - the ride's a lot less crowded, and you actually arrive at Penn a couple of minutes before the express.
This suddenly occurred to me this morning while riding the bus, as there are always people who don't know their metrocard balances, and wind up looking for change.
We know that if you swipe a metrocard and there is only $1.00 remaining, for instance, you can insert $0.50 in coins and receive a transfer good only for the local buses. The question is: If you leave the house knowing that there is only $1.00 on the metrocard, and you first insert $0.50 in coins and then swipe the metrocard, what happens then? Is a transfer encoded on the metrocard, or do the fareboxes perceive this as two separate short fares?
Bob Sklar
Hi; I believe that the latter, the short fare pick-up is what happens. This was put in by Transit, to prevent a train transfer from being issued w/ a "short" drop.
Here is the official answer provided by Stations AFC training material:
If a customer combines payment for a fare on the bus with cash and MetroCard no transfer to subway is issued. Since cash fares do get s bus transfer, the customer would get a bus-to-bus transfer. It does not matter if cash or card came first.
Suggestion: always make sure your card has at least $2 on the card. Officially, a card with just 1.50 will give a subway-bus transfer but in practice soemtimes there is no transfer placed on the card.
I never know of a problem with cards the only had a $1.50 on them getting a transfers on them. If this every dose happen take the bus number and F/B numbers and call Metrocards serivec. and they will fix the problem.
Robert
I've been told that you don't get the last MetroCard Transfer, so if you have 1.50 or 2.00 left on the MC ... suprise.
Anyone care to deny this ?
Mr t__:^)
I can only speak from my own personal experience -- which dates back to the dark ages when all Metrocards were pay-per-ride. (I've been using unlimited cards since they were introduced.)
While I didn't always make qualifying use of the card within the 2 hour period after running the balance to zero, I did so many, many times. The transfer was always there and usable whenever I did. Maybe there is an intermittent problem to which the technology is prone. Maybe I was just lucky. All I can say with certainty is that my experience proves that the final transfer is not always lost and suggests that it is not lost in the large majority of cases.
Thanks, for the input, it is greatly appreciated.
Mr t__:^)
This question came up sometime last year, and since Rosanne and I had the opportunity to try it we did. As I recall we took an L from Bedford Ave. to Union Square. Our MetroCard balance after entering fare control at Bedford was zero. We then transfered to an M-14 and the transfer did work.
Thanks to you too Gary. I appreciate your reply.
Mr t__:^)
With NYC Subways and NYC Buses going for $1.50
a swipe... how is it even possible to be left with
$1.00 on a basic, any-level, yadda yadda MetroCard?
Does it subtract .50 for each day it is left sitting
on top of a Meat Loaf CD??
Ever add $20 to the card (get $22.00)? You know you can refill those things, right?
Ah well, FUN PASS saves me that worry...
After all... I WAS quoted in that "Fans Of Tokens"
article in NYT not so long ago..
Thanx for clarity, Henry!
I thought you didn't use Metrocards.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have a card with $20.02 on it, guess the Station Agent wanted to give me my two cents worth
Mr t
Or put in his/her 2 cents worth
Peace,
ANDEE
Hi,
Can anyone please help. Our drama society (in Hertfordshire, England) are putting on a production of Little Shop Of Horrors which is a 1960's play based in Downtown New York.
As a major piece of set we need a subway entrance - for which I need to find out what such entrances were like in the 40's/50's. If anyone knows of a web site where I can see a picture of any signs, or entrances/exits, then I'd be very grateful.
Similarly, if anyone can tell me what they looked like (mosaics generally I believe) then that would be great too.
All help much appreciated.
Kat.
Here's what your carpenters will want to do for a Bowery station of the period - models in HO scale are available from:
imagesreplicas.com
and here's an image of what you require:
That's a great model site, Selkirk!
One question, though: the lettering shown in the models dates from the 70's, no? Also, the use of color-coded circles started in 1979, I believe.
What was used before that?
Usually it was a large porcelain sign that would say things like "BMT Subway, UPTOWN-DOWNTOWN" and a list of places it went ... things like "To Manhattan" or "To Bronx and Queens" and things of that sort. The name of the line was usually shown and the globes on top were different colors to indicate the division. The circles and colors came in the late 1960's when the 32's and later started appearing.
If I recall the lettering was white on a green background for the BMT and white on a blue background for the IRT. Believe or not I'm not sureof the IND. think colors were the same as the BMT. It was nice seeing the name Interborough Rapid Transit Company on those signs right thru the 50's, maybe later in some cases.
Each division had its own globes not only in colors.The IRT was like a round ball IIRC, blue in color..maybe in some places different. I"m not sure now. The BMT had a distinctive light fixture with green and white glass IIRC, with a metal top; The IND had cube shaped light globes..green if I remember, or white, or some of each. I'm sorry if I don't remember the colors perfectly.
Surprise on the Jamaica el..as late as l977 as I remember the sign over the stairs at a Sutphin Blvd-Jamaica el entrance still said MUNICIPAL RAILWAY in white letters on blue. At one time a BRT or BMT subsidiary was NYRM. The BMT paintover must have flaked away.
Yep - you've got it ... and you thought the mind was the first thing to go as you got up in years. (grin>
One of those lasted at 59th Street-Columbus Circle (at one of the IRT entrances in the Broadway island) until about ten years ago, probably a bit less.
I can remember a plain "SUBWAY" sign, with nothing else, at the Bowery station entrance in the late 60s.
IND signs at entrances were green with white lettering. You'd see "8th Ave./Independent Subway System" at stations along 8th Ave. while the "8th Ave." portion was omitted along 6th Ave. Entrances along the Queens line had, "Queensboro-8th Ave." at their entrances. Since the 8th Ave. line was the first IND segment to open, that moniker stuck. People referred to any IND portion as the 8th Ave. subway.
IRT entrances at Times Square had "NYC Transit System/IRT" signs in the late 60s. The 34th St. entrance to the 7th Ave. line had "Interborough Subway" as late as 1979.
If you're referring to INTERIOR sites of underground stations, if time permits, have someone check out the main site here at www.nycsubway.org. Little Shop was "set" on the "Bowery" in Manhattan. You will find some station shots here of the "Bowery" station if you're looking for platform shots where the trains were. The "BMT standards" were the cars in use at the time as were some "Triplexes."
However I doubt for a theatrical purpose, you would want to bother with the subway cars. My other post does show what the sidewalk entrances generally looked like at the time. I lived it.
I have a photography trip planned to visit the NYC subway. I will be filming and documenting train movements throughout the system, alot of the time at night and would appreciate information on areas that a tourist should stay away from late at night in all buroughs. Especially I need to know which train yard areas are considered dangerous for one or two people to be hanging around waiting at, with expensive equipment in hand etc.. Which lines should I stter clear of?? Any information is handy, thankyou..
This question comes up all the time and is typically fueled by tourist timidity and the reputation New York City gained in its early 80s low period. It doesn't help that every single tourist going to a city (doesn't matter which city) is constantly asking, "is it safe", as if every single tourist is going to find themselves in East New York or South Central L.A. at 3 am. It's almost as if people seriously think they're going to get robbed, raped and shot after their Saturday matinee of "The Lion King"... New York, London, Paris, it's all the same and the "is it safe" attitude constantly bothers me for reasons I can't quite put my finger on. Okay, end rant, mostly.
The rule of thumb though is this: if you look like a target, if you act like a target, you ARE a target no matter where you are or what time of day it is. You could be standing on the steps of St. Patrick's fumbling with your camera equipment in broad daylight and still get robbed. Seen it happen.
I highly suggest scouting out your locations ahead of time. Maybe rent a car and drive to your off-subway-system locations when you go back at night. If you think an area looks dicey at night when you get there you can move along without having to carry your expensive stuff back to the station.
The areas around the yards are typically desolate. Coney Island and Concourse come to mind immediately. You may not have a problem, but if you do, no one is coming to your rescue. Good yard views, however, are hard to come by from outside the razor wire and double dog-run fences.
You shouldn't have a problem at night at nearly any of the stations themselves. You should probably not go alone, not because I think you're going to get attacked, but a second set of hands and eyes is always good protection. If you can get your hands on them wear orange reflective "transit worker" style vests. Also can't hurt to have a radio scanner tuned to the transit frequencies. People will think you are an employee with direct contact to police.
By the way if you are intending to use anything more than a handheld camera without lights you need to get a permit. If you're setting up tripod type equipment on platforms I'd check in at a token booth with the agent, display your permit, and tell them where you're going to be. Don't even think of trying to get into restricted areas to get that "good shot". You're in more danger of being hit by a train or arrested than being mugged.
What exactly do you mean by a double dog run fence?
Is this where two fences are constructed parallel to eachother and the space between them is patrolled by dogs?
-Robert King
Yes. Although in the case of the NYCT yards I'm not sure if they actually have dogs.
Although in the case of the NYCT yards I'm not sure if they actually have dogs.
That was tried back in the 1970's, but the idea was soon dropped. Ed Koch actually proposed using wolves to patrol subway yards. It's hard to say exactly how serious he was ...
Dogs would get fried if they were in the yards??
Wolves, hahaha that's great :-)
..Speaking of restricted areas, are there any yards or any train storage areas that are not hard to access?? I see on here alot of photos taken from within the yards, i guess in my case, taking the photos of trains in the yards after dark may be a problem.. Which yards and layups should i try, even if i have to enter restricted areas to get the shots?? Thanx for the information..
You see the pictures within the yards because of several fan trips to subway yards. These trips got permission from the TA so that we can take pictures within the yard.
You have to get permission to enter the yards. Or if there is a fantrip to subway yards, be sure to take part in this activity.
Chaohwa
thats Bull, what about graffiti writers, yo man just scout the area, bring a Police scanner, and a flash light dont get snobby with the light watch for clearence and dont step near third rail. have fun
You won't find many of us advocating that kind of attitude ... tends to spoil it for the rest of us, i.e. the TA gets the attitude why should we bend the rules to let anyone in for any reason.
The other good point is that's it's very easy to get hurt in and around those yards.
My suggestion: do it in day light, week-day non-rush hours or week-ends. Go with a friend or two & as Dave P. said try NOT to look like a tourist ... you'll have fun.
You may not get the best photos this way, but you will be able to see a lot of the system & at least have good memories. Why not down load one of the photos from this site to go with you memories ? When I go away I buy post cards ... the pictures are better them mine.
Mr t__:^)
I don't think anyone here is going to encourage you or direct you how to trespass. Doing it at night and you're likely to get fried. (Sure, graffiti miscreants manage to do it but you don't strike me as the urban youth type.) Typically, the yard photos on here are from three circumstances:
A) "older" photos from when security was a little more lax
B) escorted tours
C) contributed by employees
Whats going to fry me if i enter a yard?? Doesnt the 3rd rails get turned off at all?? I cant beleive you still get graffiti on trains.. Isnt two fences and dogs patrolling enough?? I would have thought security in yards would be tight.. with cameras and all sorts?? what other security measures do they have??
Whats going to fry me if i enter a yard?? Doesnt the 3rd rails get turned off at all?? I cant beleive you still get graffiti on trains..
Isnt two fences and dogs patrolling enough?? I would have thought security in yards would be tight.. with cameras and all sorts?? what other security measures do they have??
You can be assured that the third rails are most definitely alive. Not to mention the old adage that any train can move on any track at any time. Yards definitely aren't safe places.
The best advice is Stay out if you are not allowed there. Those who work there know the place and what to avoid. Some years ago, a teenager was playing around the Bush Terminal yard of the NY Connecting Railroad, which at the time was electrified and under catenary. He got on top of a boxcar, made contact with the overhead, and got an instant meeting with St. Peter. His family cried and the railroad eventually remove the catenary. You do not know what hazards lurk in rail yards, and you do not want to find out at the worst possible moment, so stay safe and stay out. Most of us would prefer to die of something called old age, not of utter stupidity.
People who die of electrecution and other transit mishaps dont scout the place well enough, I could safely get in and out of almost any (especially the Bush Terminal Scrap Yard) easily but only from experience. Except for Ghost yard(207th st. Yard) that place is a fortress. The single biggest security measure the MTA has is NYPD Transit Police Vandal Squad. Now those guys are the REAL watch dogs. I even give 'em credit, not too many people know of Tom and Jerry of Vandal Squad
The Ghost Yard is the Lenox Terminal yard because of the spooky noise caused by the wind under Esplanade Gardens.
OK, you get out today, but one slip and you are explaining yourself to an old guy in front of the Pearly Gates- at least, that is how the afterlife was explained to me. I say again, if you do not belong there, stay out. Those who get paid to be there are well drilled about the dangers of the place, so please do not fall to temptation and go to any rail yard or track or right-of-way otherwise that could be your last trip to anyplace. Getting pictures is really cool, but getting injured or killed is no fun for family members, employees, managers and investigative agencies. Someone has to explain what you were doing there and why, and how to prevent you or someone else from going there again. Not everyone gets to see the headaches caused by someone getting injured while being in a place where he does not belong. I hadd the unfortunate experience of seeing the problems caused by situations like that, and believe me, it is hellish. It is also expensive, as tax dollars which could be spent on better things are taken up with the investigation, police, medical examiner, and on and on.
Having worked both rapid transit and freight rails I'd like to offer my two cents worth. The lack of 3rd rails in most freight yards is balanced in freight yards by cars and cuts of cars being allowed to move on their own momentum, sometimes with nobody "on the point" to warn you, no horn, nothing. Cars roll silently on cushioned [ballast or cinder roadbed]. Sometimes even a move pulled by a loco. the engineer cannot see you around a hood, or is watching his foreman for signals. And automated switching is coming in. [Remote control loco's]Just sharing a few thoughts. Doc is right.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. You know the territory, and the dangers that lurk therein, so please continue to inform the rest of us that safety comes first, last and always. Trying to comfort a family who just lost a loved one to something really dumb, like someone being in a place where they had no business being and getting hurt or killed because of it, is one of the aspects of my profession that I really did not like, but I had to do it. I wonder how some poor T/O who was involved in an accident in which someone fell or was pushed in front of him or her could deal with the sight of the victim being hit, then the aftermath of the investigation, the testing for alcohol and other substances, the questions, and the final reporting. Say safe out there, guys.
He could just get a really powerful camera lense and stake out the roof on an adjacent building.
Or poke the lens through the centre of a square in a chain link fence which works reasonably well as long as the lens is centred fairly accurately.
You can stand on the roof of your car or better yet, SUV/Van.
I actually know of a person who saw something interesting in a subway yard and made a point of returning later with a tall step ladder and a small "table tripod" for the camera to be able to photograph it with longer exposure times as it was a dark cloudy day.
There is one public area with a decent winter (no tree leaves) view of Jamaica Yard. Go to Union Turnpike station and walk north from the RED exit up 78th to where you see the employee entrance to the yard. There is a small area w/benches to the left of the yard, and a small path which dead ends at a low metal barricade, with a new looking chain link fence further beyond. Go around the barricade and up to the chain link fence and you get a perfect view of the Jamaica Yard tunnel portals in one direction, and the easternmost yard tracks in the other, while standing next to the leads themselves. Please note: the chain link fence was put up in 1999, when I believe the MTA bought the entire bridge there. Before, the walkway beyond the fence belonged to the parks department and you could walk across the bridge mere inches from the trains (though people rarely did, there's nothing on the other side). The path turns left after the bridge and goes down to the Grand Central parkway.
Dave,
Could you put your remarks into the FAQ section? I cannot describe how good your remarks are.
Chaohwa
Can you please help me out with my Active layups post??
I permit therefore I am.
Any place late at night in the city can be dangerous it if it's not busy. I would particularly be careful in areas in the Bronx or Brooklyn, even Queens if photographing at off hours, or when school lets out*
*Weekday Afternoons on the Flushing and Queens Blvd lines can have lots of rowdy kids
The Corona yards are easy to photograph, you can get nice pictures from the overpass there (between the 7 and LIRR station). But really don't go there at night, because it can get unsafe. Downtown Flushing at night isn't any safer either.
Has anyone here ever been at Flushing late at night (say after 10pm or so)? What is it really like?
Thankyou, John.. can you pinpoint areas in the Bronx and Brooklyn.. I know areas on the A,C ang G lines can be hazzardous. Thankyou
Sorry I don't know Bronx and Brooklyn that well, but I wouldn't hang out in those areas at night that's what I can say.
Flushing after 10pm you will find a few people waiting at each bus stop and virtually nobody elsewhere. I think downtown Flushing area is generally safe. Yes I have seen groups of Asian (and even hispanic and black) youths walking here and there but they haven't bothered me too much yet.
Young people will always collect in groups, it's their nature. And people like John will always think of groups of young people as dangerous gangs. It's their prejudice nature.
Someone tell me how long this will all take...
PATH TO 34th. Arrive 34th at 9:30am
63rd St tunnels, to 21st and back to 42
D from 42 to 161st/Yankee
4 to Woodlawn then back down the lex to Franklin
Franklin shuttle from Botanic Garden to the jct with the Fulton IND, then back to Prospect
Q to Stillwell
N back to downtown
Anyone interested in meetin' me somewhere alnog the line?
>>>PATH TO 34th. Arrive 34th at 9:30am <<<
From where?
>>>63rd St tunnels, to 21st and back to 42 <<<
30 minutes.
>>>D from 42 to 161st/Yankee<<<
35-40 minutes
>>>4 to Woodlawn then back down the lex to Franklin<<<
90-100 minutes
>>>Franklin shuttle from Botanic Garden to the jct with the Fulton IND, then back to Prospect<<<
not sure, ask BMTman
>>>Q to Stillwell<<<
45 min
>>>N back to downtown<<<
FOREVER 8-) about, 90 min
>>>Anyone interested in meetin' me somewhere alnog the line?<<<
Sure, I live near Woodlawn I'll E-mail as the day gets closer.
Peace,
ANDEE
Q to stillwell takes 45 minutes???? It would make it to Brighton Beach in 12 easily, and you wait 10 minutes at the ultimate most for the D which gets you to stillwell in like 6-7 minutes. 45 minutes-where'd you get that from?
OOPS!
Peace,
ANDEE
In honor of WMATA's 25th Anniversary?
Hard to believe, but I won't be in town for it (but I would if they used the REAL anniversary).
The Franklin shuttle runs 10 minute headways, departing Prospect Park on the 2s (:02, :22, etc) from 7AM to 6PM (other times less frequent). From Park Pl (04, 24, etc) to Franklin takes 5 minutes. From Franklin (00, 10, etc) to Prospect takes 6 minutes. So if you just miss one it will still take you max 20 minutes.
HI all, Baseball season is just around the corner and that means Fantasy Baseball time. If you into fantasy sports I just started up a league at the SANDBOX.com web site. It's free to play and lots of fun. The name of my league is
NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT LEAGUE
It's a private league that requires a password which is
MTA
This league has 4 spaces left so join quickly, if you know of someone you likes Fantasy Baseball please e-mail this posting to them.
Fellow SubTalkers,
I'm just back from two weeks in Sydney, Singapore, and Bangkok. The rail riding was terrific! On the very turbulent eleven hour Tokyo to Chicago leg, I did a new write-up for SYD, and an update of my BKK page (Mark F. previously prepared a great write-up of SIN). Plus, I have dozens of images for all three cities. Everything will be sent along to our Webmaster this weekend for posting. (Thanks to United Airlines for installing laptop power ports so I could work on their international flights!)
The weather was HOT and HUMID in all three cities of course, so it's nice to come home to winter weather.
welcome back! Todd, look foward to your writeups
Peace,
ANDEE
Todd, you should have given the flight crew an aviation forecast for that Tokyo-to-Chicago leg so they could have picked a better route (sudden turbulence and laptops -- not a match made it heaven) :-)
It's a nasty trade-off. Plunking your jet in the middle of the jet stream heading eastbound gives you a 150mph+ tail wind, which saves gobs of fuel and shortens the travel time by hours. But that's where the nasty bumps are. Avoiding that will add many hours and thousands of dollars to the flight. Westbound flights avoid this, to avoid the headwinds.
By the way, the routes that jets take across the ocean are called "tracks," as they are fixed routes that the jets can't steer off of without significant and difficult to accomplish coordination. (See, on topic!)
[By the way, the routes that jets take across the ocean are called "tracks," as they are fixed routes that the jets can't steer off of without significant and difficult to accomplish coordination.]
Sounds like they need to do some MOW work on those TRACKS. Guess the pilots were watching their radar closely to see if some of the switches were thrown against them :-)
BTW, Welcome back.
Mr t
Now the Northeast is in for a whale of a blizzard. Is it time to cue up the Welcome Back, Kotter theme yet?:-)
You're not kidding about the air "tracks". Check this out:
From the window of a Continental Boeing 777 en route from Manchester, U.K. to Newark, September 9, 2000. We paralleled those two planes the whole way back to North America.
Yup, that's right! Somewhere I've seen the track naming scheme... I'll try to find it. They're called "NAT" for North Atlantic Tracks. Getting "switched" off a track (either laterally or vertically) once on is really tough, since coordination via RF radio with land-based control and other aircraft must take place. There's a new scheme being tested over the Pacific where specially-outfitted airplanes with advanced TCAS (an I-see-you--you-see-me system) can talk to each other to obtain "passing" permission.
I wish we could trade. I think anyone would be crazy not to be someplace with beautiful, mystical girls and hot weather and rather be in snow. Needless to say I'd much rather be with a mystical girl in a nice summer outfit, than trudging through foot high snow in "what's a shovel" Sea Cliff.
"... so it's nice to come home to winter weather".
You SURE about that, now?? :) I much prefer the hot and humid weather myself.
Were you able to get a cab ride on the Singapore MRT? Has much changed since my writeup?
It seems that, usually, there's a story to tell about flights to the Far East. When I flew to Singapore, the plane made an "unscheduled fuel stop" in Fairbanks, Alaska. (I guess that's better than taking an unscheduled swim :) Between the headwinds we flew through, and the weight of the plane being more that expected, we needed additional fuel to complete the trip. I missed my connections and stayed overnight in Bangkok. No turbulence, though.
--Mark
Nope, didn't get a cab ride. I was traveling with a non-railfan friend. But your write-up is still pretty up-to-date. One addition, though: The entire system is now wired for wireless phone communications. EVERYONE, old and young alike, was on the phone. Phones rang continuously - in stations and on moving trains - even in the tunnels. In Bangkok too, EVERYONE it seems was on the phone. We still have it relatively quiet here in the US!
Europe and Asia are approximately 2 years ahead of us when it comes to (the use of) wireless technology. Wonder if they have any "no phone use while driving" laws.
--Mark
On the January 2001 subway map, they have the 63rd Steet connector drawn in. I picked up the map at the library today.
I looked at "the map" on mta.nyc.ny.us and I didn't see the 63rd street connector.
I posted about this when they first started appearing in stations (on the wall). I didn't know they were even making customer versions until someone else mentioned it. I've had it hanging on my wall for the past month. They're on most trains now and in most stations as well.
Congrats, you're the first person to have a computer image of an official map showing the connector (unless someone else scanned it and didn't tell us). As Ry-trans-it said, not even the MTA site has it.
I got that MAP.
I fround that MAP in Grand Central Station.
But why the R Line will skip 53 and 45 St's heading to 36 St doing Late Nights?
Dominick Bermudez.
Already discussed in a previous thread.
Now that's how you disorient people. People looking at that map would now think, "Oh, the E/F/G/R isn't changing. Its only the Q that will be extended. Nothing to worry about."
I believe the TA should've put the plan into it, and showed what service will be like instead of drawing an orange line to connect with the Q, even though that's what the plan should've been all along.
Riding the C train from Jay St to Columbus Circle, I noticed a WD sign at the Canal St. station as well as flashing white lights in the station, itself. The train literally crept from WTC through Canal and then resumed normal speed. Does WD mean Work Detail? If it does, I saw no workers on the tracks nor any sign of flags or equipment and I was looking out the front window.
Carl M.
WDs are wheel detectors. Kinda like timer signals, except they can trip a train even after it passes the WD (thus the WD END sign). They are being installed at various crossings to keep trains slow. The ones around Canal which aren't close to the switch yet are pretty lenient (25) but many T/Os are terrified of these things so they often crawl through as if it were skeletonized track. If anything gets tripped by a WD, the appropriate tower is immediately alerted and the T/O is screwed. They flash while the train is not adhering to the speed restriction, and are steady when the train is compliant. When the light is not on at all, it is inactive. What I don't understand about the Canal st northbound ones is why they are active even if the A is the next train. It won't be crossing the switch! Southbound, they are inactive if an E is there but on when a C is entering.
I sometimes think it is more a sign of protest than fear that trains crawl through those areas. Even though the switch is after the station, southbound As and northbound Es must wait in the tunnel before Canal until the C has crossed the switch and a line up is given. Plus of course there is probably a train behind those Cs waiting to enter anyway. Some T/Os may be deliberately holding up the railroad and thousands of riders to perhaps annoy the management into removing those stupid things.
If WDs didn't alert the tower or have the ability to trip mid-train, I'd probably like them. They are better than timers in some sense, with timers you have to kinda guess when they will clear (which leads to T/Os driving erratically, ie: slowing from 45 to 10 after going to fast in an area timed for 30). With WDs one can tell from a short distance away wether speed should be reduced. They're kinda like those signs on the highway telling you how fast you're going.
When did the lords of the MTA come up with those things? My guess is that they want to keep a C train from de-railing while crossing the interlocking north of Canal Street, and probably after seeing what happened during that crash and derailing that happened on the IRT #4 going southbound just before 14th Street some years ago. Was there supposed to be a subway connection built as part of the second system in the tunnel connecting the World Trade Center station and Canal Street? I see evidence of a tunnel portal which has no tracks, branching off the route in that aforementioned tunnel section. Could some use be made of that proposed tunnel at some point in time?
We were told in school that new regulations and features like this are mandated after major accidents. (Forgot offhand which one they said caused the WD detectors. Willy B crash perhaps? Or maybe one of the IRT collisions in the Bronx not too long ago.) The federal govt. requires that an agency "does something" to remedy a problem after each accident like those.
There was a proposed Worth St line as part of the IND second system that would have branched off there.
We can all thank our good buddy Robert Ray for these wheel detectors. For those unaware, he was the motorman that wrapped that #4 train around the wall at Union Square back in August of 1991. Lucky for him he's in jail, because plenty of TA employees, myself included, would probably choke this guy to death given the chance. You would not believe the impact that incident had on this job. As for the wheel detectors themselves, I vote for the one north of Pacific St. crossing from F1 to F3 as biggest pain in the a**. Every morning on my first trip southbound, it takes us 20 minutes to get form Whitehall St. to DeKalb Ave. because of N trains crossing over that thing.
Those wheel detectors at Pacific are a real pain in the a**! Sometimes I think one could walk from Dekalb to Pacific faster than a train moves through there.
What run do you have on the N. I will be posting with N206 on this comming up Thusday to make up for the day I missed in line training. Then on Friday I am on my own. Let me know if this is you.
Robert
Actually I'm the conductor on N215, starting out of City Hall. However, I do come across 206 when I get to Astoria before my first trip. I'll probably see you there. The regular 206 motorman is a pretty decent guy. You should be OK.
Thanks for the 411.
Robert
exacly what wd do .
Thanks for that info on WD's. I never knew any of that stuff!
You're right, The WD should be off for A trains, but it isn't. There shouldn't even be a WD before canal, only after it. There should be a light always set to red at the end of Canal, forcing even trains oos to stop and adheed the WD.
The northbound A is only affected coming in to the station. If he receives an express lineup leaving Canal St, the WD is not on and he can proceed at the regular speed. If the lineup is for the local, the WD remains in effect until the train has crossed the switch and has passed the WD END sign.
Train operators are deathly afraid of WDs because once the train is tripped by them, they cannot be reset by the tower. The Control Center must be called; they are the only ones who can reset the WD. What does that mean? A visit from a TSS, writing a G2, or possibly being taken out of service.
That WD was there at Canal St for a while, but was not made functional until the incident happened with the small child falling outside the Q train as it was either crossing a switch or rounding a curve.
Basically, the only train this WD affects is the C (and late at night, the A) because it is the only train that diverges from one track to another.
Indirectly it affects all 8th ave, the trains waiting for the C to finish crossing (all tracks). Also, the A T/Os still must slow down on entering, despite the fact there is no reason to. Maybe there should be a punch at Chambers, WD off if express line-up.
The WTC bound E train also has to contend with those #%*#%* wheel detectors even though it does not cross over. I fail to see the link between the WD's entering Canal on straight rail and the Q train incident. In addition, if a WD is activated by overspeed, the respective tower, bangs in the train operator if he/she hasn't already done so. The respective tower, not Control Center resets the WD under the orders of the Control Center.
Thanks for clarifying that, Bill.
It may have just been coincidence, but that WD at Canal was activated the day after that terrible incident happened on the Q train. I, too, fail to see why it was done if it indeed was as a result of that incident.
Wheel Detectors. Any T/O that goes through a flashing white will send the train into emergency (they have trips) and the T/O in big trouble.
I believe they can record certain information regular signals can't.
Wheel Detectors sense how fast a train is moving by the passage of wheels I guess.
This evening on my way home from work, I was sitting on my Red Line train fairly close to a set of doors as it made its way through the downtown stops on the State Street Subway. Naturally, the train was packed with the usual rush hour mob.
I watched as some guy carrying a large duffel bag over his shoulder got on the train at Washington, stood in the train for a few seconds, and then for some reason, decided he didn't want to be on the train after all and attempted to step back off. At this same moment, the doors had begun closing.
The guy made it off the train okay, but the strap of the duffel bag got caught in the closing doors. To everybody's horror, and especially to the horror of the guy standing on the platform while strapped to the exterior of a subway train, the doors never re-opened and the train began to pull out of the station.
I was sitting on the other side of the train watching this unfold before my eyes, but I wasn't close enough to reach the emergency release knob above the door and pull it. So I shouted "Pull the red ball!" to the people standing next to the door, but they merely stood there with confused, blank stares on their faces. "PULL THE FUCKING RED BALL!!!" I shouted once again, but to no avail. One guy sort of looked at the ball for a second and even gave it a very timid tug, but then gave up.
Meanwhile, the guy outside the train was at least smart enough to realize it would be in his best interest to immediately free himself from his bag, and did so.
By now the train is moving at a decent clip with this guy's bag still stuck in the door. One of the passengers next to the door who did absolutely nothing to help this guy free himself was now publicly berating me for yelling profanity at her.
Luckily, the train was now pulling into the stop at Lake Street, which is really only about a hundred yards from Washington and shares the same platform thanks to Chicago's continuous-platform design on the downtown subways. So I got up and shoved my way past the crowd and pulled the door-release ball as the train is coming to a stop. I grabbed the guy's bag and jump off the train, and ran back towards Washington. I soon found the guy (he had been chasing after the train, hoping to catch up with it at Lake) and gave him his bag back.
The train was still standing at the station now, so I got back on and continued my journey home. As the train continued northward, the crowd thined out a bit and I walked through the train back up to the head car. I got off at my regular stop and confronted the T/O about the incident back at Washington.
Me: "Excuse me, what's your run number?"
T/O: "833"
Me: "You almost dragged a guy back at Washington. He was stuck in the doors and you started pulling out."
T/O: "I didn't see anything like that."
Me: "Well, it's your job to see it."
T/O: "Have a nice day," sarcastically.
A couple observations come to mind:
Yeah, the duffel bag guy was an idiot for making a last-minute decision to get off the train as the doors were closing, but that doesn't mean he would have deserved to have been dragged to death if he hadn't been able to free himself from the strap. This incident is almost identical to the Rachel Barton incident on Metra a few years ago, in which the strap of a young lady's violin case got caught in the closing doors. She was unable to free herself, and when the train began pulling out of the station, she was dragged under the wheels of the train and lost her left leg and right foot. The amount of damages she was awarded in her subsequent lawsuit probably would have sent many smaller transit agencies into bankruptcy.
The doors-closing chime on the CTA is utterly worthless as a safety device. Unlike in New York where the chime is actived by the door control itself, the chime on CTA trains is a seperate button the T/O has to push. Therefore, there is no direct correlation between the time you hear the warning and the time the doors begin closing; you often hear the doors-closing warning two or three times while the train is standing in a station, and then several more seconds pass before the doors actually close. It's not unusual to even hear the warning after the doors have already closed and the train has already started moving. The result? People see it for the joke it is and completely disregard it. The chime should be set up like NYC's and Boston's where the chime means the doors really are closing.
OPTO here in Chicago is a disaster waiting to happen. (Take heed, NYCTA!) I've observed that most CTA operators merely take a quick glance down the platform, push the lever to close the doors, and then quickly duck back over to their console before the doors are even fully closed. This is especially true at stations with island platforms (such as the downtown subways where today's incident took place), where the doors are opening on the opposite side of the train from the driving position. This creates a few critical seconds where there are no eyes watching the platform at the exact time they are most needed. Some stations have video monitors, but these are only at stations with obstructed visibility, and a video monitor is still a poor substitute for a real conductor.
Comments? Observations? Questions?
I'm debating whether or not to contact the CTA and report this T/O, as I did write down his run number. On one hand I don't want to get the guy fired, but on the other hand I have a hard time looking the other way when stuff like this happens. Any thoughts about this would also be appreciated, especially from those of you who are T/O's.
Thanks in advance,
-- David
Chicago, IL
OPTO in NY isn't as bad an idea as u would think. First of all, it is on off-peak hours trains (unlike your ordeal), and not even on weekdays any longer. Further, the trains used to opto have this wierd light orientation where some type of instrumentation in front of the operator doesn't light up until all doors have closed (not saying this won't fail).
Failing to pull the emergency brake is something that wouldn't happen in NY. Matter-of-fact, some people are all too willing to pull it....
What happened there today was tragic, and could have resulted in that guy's death. And the T/O seemed so non-chalant about as if it were some casual thing. Now i'm no T/O (i'm 16) but my dad is a Transit Authority Employee, and although he has never worked on the operation of trains (maintainer, foreman, supervisor), he now teaches crane and rail safety. As a rail safety instructor, and as a foreman/supervisor, he's 'written up' people for endangering themselves. Although the worker maybe someone with a family, and rent to pay, they get suspended without pay because a life is more important than a paycheck. You should report that T/O because he's an incompetent jackass.
CTA trains also have a light that indicates all doors are closed, but the doors aren't sensitive enough to detect something as small and flexible as a strap on a bag.
This brings up another issue I should have mentioned:
Door edges on NYCTA and MBTA trains also have a better design than Chicago's. In NYC and Boston, the rubber edges at the door fit together in sort of a tongue-and-groove arrangement, while Chicago's door edges are merely two rounded pieces of rubber that bump against each other. Sometimes they don't even touch and there's a visible gap of up to 1/4" between the leaves of the door. These door edges are supposedly pressure-sensitive, causing the door to reopen if they detect pressure, but you have to give them a pretty hard squeeze to be very effective. Again, they're not nearly sensitive enough to detect something like a leather strap. (Safety issues aside, the tongue-and-groove door edges are also much more effective at keeping out winter drafts.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
A leather strap would be detected on an NYC train because of it's thickness. R-46 doors are so sensitive, that if you push outward on them as their closing, the rubber will push against itself, and the door will stay open. However, if say a small string with a knot at the end were to get caught in the door, that would pose a problem.
Sounds like the rubber on NYCTA cars before they were GOH'd and A/C was added. Actually, a couple of years back, while working up at Pelham Bay in the Bronx, when the tounge-and-groove style rubber was in the process of being installed on the R-62A's, one night a few of us had nothing better to do, there was a layup in the station that wasn't leaving for awhile. So we decided to start 'testing' the new rubber by keying open a door panel, and putting various objects in its way. We found that rigid items (leather belts, handbag straps, Etc.) caused the door not to close and the guard light ot hang. However, thin items like ties, shoelaces, pants legs, shirtsleeves, still enabled the rubber to mate and cleared the guard light. OK if you're inside the train, not so good if you're outside. Moral of the story: when we say 'stand clear of the closing doors' we're not saying it for our health. Be aware at all times. That motorman was a putz. Those people who were right near the door were bigger putzes. The woman who became 'offended' by your yelling probably would have voted for Hillary if she lived in NY. Your efforts were noble. You should be proud of what you did.
Usually, u can pull your clothes out of the door anyway, so it really isn't that bad.
Redbirds don't have that 'interlocking system.
That's because top brass figured the Redbirds were slated for retirement anyway, and it wasn't worth the expense. Now it looks as if those same Redbirds may be around a bit longer than initially anticipated. Time for more Bondo...
On anything in NYC made before 1990 you can force open the door up to 1/4 inch and the guard light stays off. However, if the door hasn't fully closed yet something 1/4" wide will still cause a hung guard light.
On newer stuff the doors cannot be forced open at all. The problem:
At 34th/7th I get on the R-142 2. Part of my coat gets caught between the doors, but it is a very thin part and the guard light goes out. Thanks to the 'recycle' feature the door holders in other parts of the train do not cause the C/R to reopen the doors. The next stop with doors opening on the left side is at 110 st, but I just heard over the scanner we were to go express 96th to 135. So the next stop is E180, but we end up in the express track there so the doors open on the right. The stop I get off at? Gun Hill Road. All for a one stop ride from 34th to 42nd. If we had gone express after there and pulled in on the left track at White Plains Rd I would have had to wait until 238st downtown to get separated from the door, and have to stay on the same train all the way to 42nd.
Perhaps next time that happens just get someone to pull the brake.
Alot of people in the train may be upset because of the delay, but they are just a bunch of inconsiderate idiots. I know if it were me I would've gotten that cord pulled, while the train was in the station.
I really find it hard to believe that you couldn't pull the thin part of your coat out from between the closed door panels (unles you have some major upper body disability, in which case I apologize) on the trip from 34 St to Gun Hill Rd (that's about 40 minutes, folks). Even working on the condition that you couldn't free your coat from the door, did it ever occur to you to get out of your coat and either use the Passenger Emergency Intercom, pull the Passenger Emergency Handle Unit or wander down to the CR or TO and tell them (since you couldn't free your coat, I doubt anyone else could either, so theft shouldn't have been a problem). Or, barring that option, make enough noise so that one of your fellow passengers would do it?
On a completely different issue, I find it very unlikely that a 2 came into E.180 St on M Track and then proceeded to make local stops from there to Gun Hill Rd. It just ain't done, unless a GO is running and that one hasn't run in a long while.
I pulled, it didn't come out, so rather than look like a dick I figured I'd just wait until the doors on that side would open again. I was in no hurry anyway. As for why we came in on M track there was a not-in-service train on the local at E180.
I've seen small visible gaps on Redbird doors.
I don't know if the lack of a conductor can be blamed. There is about one such incident every other month in NYC that results in serious injury. Our door design and conductors are adept at trapping backpacks, handbags, baby stroller wheels and childrens' feet. The general reaction on this board has been to blame the victim or his parent for inattention and worse.
A casual review of some case law revealed that such incidents are not limited to MUDC cars. A surprising number of law suits were brought in the gate car days.
As a former CR for NYCTransit (now a TO), I can only wish that there were someway for some of you to ride with us as we go down the road just to see what really happens. In three years with Transit, I've watched people try to hold doors open with: their baby's heads, full coffe cups, wallets, backpacks and other assorted paraphenalia. I have to say it would be their fault if something happened, because the doors were so close to being closed that only these small items would stand a chance of working. I have also watched people get on a train with a carriage and leave it onboard while they ran upstairs to fetch their other child (If I didn't happen to see her on the stairs, would I have been charged with kidnapping?); get on a train not knowing their child wasn't 'right behind them' on the stairs; send a five-year old to hold the doors while they take their time; all thw hile trying to avoid the gobs of spit and the insults.
When I was offered the chance to move up front, I fairly leapt at it. No more dealing with the idiots face-to-face on a continuous basis. Now I only have to worry about the fools who play 'chicken' with the train; who need that 'great shot' for a student film, so take a black videocam, mount it on a black tripod and put it on the roadbed in the shadows. If I hit one of these people with the train, it ain't gonna bother me one little bit. And before anyone jumps at me, saying I'm like David's TO example, think again. I've received written compliments from passengers commending me on how I dealt with some situations; my co-workers know me as a nice quiet guy who will not put up with S*** from anyone; I know my job and do it well; after work, I come home and come visit here or at the Straphanger's Campaign where I can get picked on for fun instead of profit.
OK, enough of that. David, in your conversation with the TO, was there anything in your actions that might have made him think you were another over-reacting customer looking to make scene instead of someone with a legitimate concern? Other than that, I would be forced to agree with most of the rest here - he was an idiot, who should be reported for, if nothing else, his attitude. The customer, also, was an idiot - if the stations are one continuous platform, he would have better served himself waiting for the next station and walking back (much as he did anyway). The woman who yelled back - at least she had some guts; the rest of the mindless sheep probably still don't know what happened.
David, in your conversation with the TO, was there anything in your actions that might have made him think you were another over-reacting customer looking to make scene instead of someone with a legitimate concern?
I doubt it, but then with CTA employees you never really know. I think most CTA employees are decent folks, but there's a few who would consider mere eye contact an overreaction.
If I had confronted the T/O immediately after the incident, with my adrenalin rush still going in full swing, he would have legitimately seen me as somebody just trying to be an ass an cause a scene. Luckily, by the time I finally got to my stop and confronted him, I had been on the train about 40 minutes and had calmed down a bit. I thought I was firm, but level-headed and in control while confronting him, which I think is the most effective way to make a point. If I had gone up there cursing and screaming at him, he would have easily written me off as just another overly emotional, ill-tempered wacko. Besides, I was exhausted from a long week at work and was in no mood to start my weekend by getting into a pissing contest with this guy. I wanted to make him aware of what had happened, but while keeping the conversation as short and sweet as possible.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>> by the time I finally got to my stop and confronted him, I had been on the train about 40 minutes and had calmed down a bit. I thought I was firm, but level-headed and in control while confronting him <<<
With the added information that you did not talk to the T/O until forty minutes and many miles after the incident, his response is not so surprising. If you had said something before the train pulled out of the Lake Station, he could have gone back and investigated exactly what had happened.
When you said "You almost dragged a guy back at Washington. He was stuck in the doors and you started pulling out." and he said "I didn't see anything like that." What were you expecting? Unless he was deliberately trying to drag a passenger, he obviously did not see anything. Once you come back with "Well, it's your job to see it." you are accusing him of not doing his job. What did you expect him to reply? It is understandable why he would not want to continue the conversation no matter what your demeanor was. Since he knew nothing about the incident, nothing further he could say would be helpful to him if you were going to file a complaint about the incident, and at that point there was no practical way for the T/O to investigate the facts that you were alleging.
Therefore I would expect any T/O to react in a similar way to that situation, and I challenge the various T/Os and C/Rs who post here to tell how they would have handled the situation (passenger saying you did something which endangered another passenger 40 minutes ago) differently.
Tom
I wasn't able to get to the head of the train until it had gotten some distance away from downtown, as the train was packed with the evening rush hour crowd and it would have been impossible to walk through the train. It was difficult enough to walk through the train even as far north as Argyle, which is the stop before mine.
And I wasn't expecting him to investigate, since there was nothing on the train to investigate. I wouldn't have even remembered which set of doors were involved. I simply wanted him to know that he almost dragged somebody so that maybe he'll be more careful the next time he's closing the doors. (And no, he wasn't doing his job, because this incident wouldn't have happened if he was.)
To be honest, I really couldn't have cared less what sort of sarcastic comeback he had or anything else he might have said to me, since my only objective was to let him know what happened. I wasn't really interested in carrying on a conversation with the guy while an entire trainload of commuters sat there and waited.
It's easy to look back two days later and second-guess the whole thing, but I think I handled the situation as well as I could have under the circumstances, and without having the benefit of discussing my actions in committee beforehand.
-- David
Chicago, IL
After the 1991 accident on The Market-Frankford Line that resulted in a death of an elderly lady caught between the doors and being dragged off of The Girard Avenue platform, they have started to replace the flimsy rubber on the door edges of The Almond Joys with the hard rubber "tongue-and-groove" with a 2" stainless steel adapter and retrofitted with safety door interlocks. This should have been done during the '80s.
This doesn't happen to every car. Even though NYC has the 'tounge and groove', some redbirds still have the crappy rubber edge mating.
The same thing almost happened to my mother back in '86 at the 13th street station. She had my brothers and me board the train before her, and the second the conductor blew the whistle the T/O closed the doors, leaving her hand stuck in the door, the train actually took off and pulled her down the platform, thank god the station was packed full of people who punched and kicked on the train until it stopped. After we got off the conductor was rude about it, and my mother just cussed him out. She considered legal action but didn't take any.
I would guess the CTA won't thank you for pulling the emergancy stop, and will probally make more of that then what caused you top do it, so maybe the best course of action is to let it go.
Mr t__:^)
OPTO is an awful idea, but it is an idea that is extremely popular on systems world wide as it has created sizeable labor cost savings.
I worked OPTO for two picks(about 10 months) and I can say with total confidence that I will never work OPTO again. It's bad enough that one person is performing two jobs, but when you do it and you're tired as most T/O's do, it's a recipe for disaster.
One Sunday I was working OPTO on the G line. The crew office called me up to ask me to come in early, which I had agreed to considering the preferential treatment that I had been receiving. It's hard to say no when they do favors for you.
Anyway I was quite tired as I went to sleep at 4:30 am and reported to work at 11:15 am after the phone call. On the first trip down to Smith-9 Sts, I had arrived at Bedford-Nostrand and prepared to open the doors. At this stop, you open up on the left side of the train. I was so tired that I didn't notice that I was about to open up on the right side of the train with nothing but a wall. I turned the key to ON and hit the open button. At this time I immediately woke up with horror and realized what I had just done! Fortunately I had pressed the wrong open button. Instead of pressing the button on the right, I pressed the one on the left. Mind you that I had no problem staying awake after that down to Smith-9th and back again to Court Square. When I arrived at Court Square, I immediately booked off sick. I barely completed one round trip without risking unemployment, I wasn't about to risk doing four more round trips.
I am vehemently opposed to OPTO in any way, shape or form. And I'll never work a pick on it again.
I know that stop real well; i go there a lot. Motormen seem to have problems with that stop all the time. The G has all of it's other platforms on the motorman side, but not Bedford-Nostrand.
Frequently, T/O's take 10 seconds to open the doors, and then even longer to get the train moving after closing. OPTO isn't necessarily a bad idea, but if you're going to save money by not having conductors, then you can hire an extra operator or 2 with that extra money. Selfishness is what results in disaster, especially when you play with soemone's sleep hours.
I say you're a hero and should definitely report the incident. Don't feel guilty about the operator getting fired. Whatever punishment is merited in the system is not up to you. But if management doesn't know that incidents like this occur, they're not going to do anything to deter future reoccurences.
Knowing NOTHING about the windy city, what does this "red ball" do?
Does it open the door? Will the T/O lose indication? Will the train dump? Hate to see the train still move with the door open >G<.
In NYC you would have to pull the brake cord at one of the ends of the car and HOPE your not on a R142 that is more than 1/2 way out of the station or you ain't stopping nuttin.
CTA trains actually have two types of safety mechanisms that passengers can pull, both of which involve a small red ball:
1) The emergency brake, which works the same way as the cord on NYC subway trains. (Except that in Chicago it's impossible to "dump" the train, as CTA trains do not use air brakes.) However, the principle is the same; you pull the cord and the train comes to a very abrupt stop. The cord on CTA trains is located above and to the side of the storm door at the opposite end of the car from the operator's cab. However, the cords on CTA trains have no markings or signage indicating their function, so it's rather unlikely the average commuter would know to use it. (I only know because I watched Harrison Ford make use of it in The Fugitive.)
2) The second safety device is the one I used, and is one that I believe is fairly unique to Chicago, mounted in a small cove above each set of doors. It looks just like the regular cord, a red ball about 1.5" in diameter attached to the end of a small metal shaft. You yank on this red ball (or "pull the cherry" according to CTA slang), which has some sort of mechanical interface with the door mechanism. The doors unlock and pop open about four inches, allowing you to then slide the doors fully open by hand. This process doesn't dump the train, but it does set off an alarm in the operator's cab and prompts the operator to immediately stop the train. The door can then be closed again via the normal door controls. (It is also possible to close the doors by reaching into the little cove and activating some sort of switch or button, but so far I have yet to master that trick.) This door-release feature was incorporated onto all CTA rolling stock many years ago (I forget the exact year) after a streetcar collided with a gasoline truck on the South Side and caught fire. Scores of passengers were killed because they were unable to open the doors to escape the burning streetcar. Somebody with a better knowledge of Chicago transit history could probably say a lot more about that accident.
This evening was actually the first time I've ever seen the door-release mechanism used in an actual emergency. However, I've seen it used many other times and have even used it myself a few times in the past. The most common uses include: 1) CTA track workers being dropped off at a work site between stations, 2) People using it to exit a train when they couldn't get to the doors in time for their stop, 3) People using it to leave the train when the T/O takes too long to open the doors at a station, and 4) Skells using to exit a train after waking up and realizing they're on an empty train sitting in a station at the end of the line. I guess the biggest danger, aside from some drunk skell opening the doors and jumping off a fast-moving train, would be a drunk skell opening the doors and leaving the train while it's high up on an el. But so far I've never heard of any cases like this happening.
BTW, what is it about the R142's that would make stopping the train so difficult?
-- David
Chicago, IL
The R142s do not have the usual Emergency Brake Cord, which dumps the train when pulled. The PEHU (Passenger Emergency Handle Unit) will only dump the train if it (the train) is stopped in a station or within 600' of the leaving end of the station. At other times it will sound an alert in both the TO and CR positions. Unless it is reset beforehand, the emergency brakes will activate the next time the doors are opened. This is probably one of the smarter features on this train, since most of the reasons the cord usually gets pulled for really need the train to be in astation for aid to arrive.
What happens if someone is passing between cars that eh/she slips and is holding on for dear life and they try to stop the train, but the T/O desides to continue onto the next station and in the meanwhile the person slips and dies. There are many cases when a passenger needs to stop the train NOW!
See David's original post for what happens when you try to get someone to stop the train. Your scenario requires a caring New Yorker to actaully notice that someone crossing between cars has fallen down and is hanging on for his life. Plainly put - fat chance. As for crossing between the cars, Transit asks that you DON'T. If you still feel the need to, there are chains, hand holds and door handles to hold onto. USE them.
The streetcar accident you speak of happened on May 25, 1950 at 63rd and State Streets. Green Hornet 7078 hit a gasoline truck and was destroyed in the ensuing blaze which killed 33 people. It served as an organ donor of sorts, as its parts were used to rebuilt 7205. That car split a switch at State and Root on July 17, 1949 and wrapped itself around a lamppost. The door release feature came in the aftermath of that tragic accident. Our LRVs in Denver have emergency release levers for each individual folding door.
The actual cause of the accident was that 7078 split the switch at 63rd and State, hitting the gasoline truck. Since all Chicago PCC's had blinker doors, which have to be pulled in and pushed to the side to open, the passengers did not know how to open them. They tried to push outward, which failed.
Many other companies that had PCC's with blinker doors did nothing, but Capital Transit retrofitted all their PCC's that had blinker doors with outward folding doors.
Toronto's original PCC's came with outward folding doors, as did all new PCC's bought, but several groups of secondand cars came with binker doors, which were replaced as the cars were prepared for sevice in Toronto.
Some of the used PCCs the TTC bought that had blinker doors actually made it into service with them intact. They quickly were replaced due to concerns arising from the Chicago fire and the fact that they were apparantly quite drafty in wintertime.
Another interesting thing about the Toronto PCCs is that none of them had the horizontal bars blocking the area where the windows opened. I'm not sure if any of the used PCCs had them in their original cities, but if they did the TTC made sure to remove them when they were prepared for service in Toronto.
I had seen a picture somwhere of a ex-Louisville/Cleveland car in TTC Colors with blinker doors, minus couplers. The story I got was that the cars were rushed into service without a door retrofit because of a rush to get rid of the last 1300 ex-TRC cars. I didn't download it, don't remember where I saw it, or when it was taken. It had to be middle 1953, as Cleveland sold them to TCC in late 1952.
According to Lou Pursley's The Toronto Trolley Car Story, the A-11 and A-12 class were acquired in 1952. There is a picture on Page 116 of one of the A-12's with blinkers on the front and outward folding centers. The shot is very early, as the car bears the old TTC emblem. There are no couplers, but the front skirt is cut for the coupler. The Cleveland Pullmans (TTC A-11) came to Cleveland with the front and rear skirts cut for couplers, there are stories that the cars were originally ordered by Baltimore and the order was cancelled with 75 cars roughly complete (the Baltimore order was supposed to be for 90 cars) and Pullman was able to unload them on Cleveland and Boston.
The A-9 and A-10 cars came from Cincinatti in 1950 and appear to have had the doors replaced on delivery to TTC. They had blinkers in Cincinatti.
>>They had blinkers in Cincinatti.<<
You're half-right. The Cincinatti PCC's had blinker doors in the front, but had push-open "Fishbowl" type center doors.
There are two on Transit Toronto at the moment; this is the best one:
I gave James Bow's galleries a thorough going through and supplied him with some additional commentary for some of the pictures including this one where I gave him the information I knew about the blinker doors and absence of couplers.
I don't think there was such a huge rush to get the used PCCs out and running to displace TRC cars because the Yonge subway was going to open in 1954 and that would have finished them off for sure. However, the last TRC car was retired before then, and getting them retired probably was a factor to an extent.
All A12s and all A11s except for two that were done for testing purposes were not equipped with multiple unit couplers because the arrival of couplers was delayed. I don't know why the blinker doors weren't removed right away though, but my best guess is that they removed them at the time the couplers were installed.
With respect to Boston, I've heard that the streetcar drivers and the maintainance staff didn't like the all electric PCCs that they purchased from Pullman; the PCCs that they still use on the Ashmont-Mattapan line are wartime air PCCs which predate the all electric Pullmans. I don't know why they disliked the all electric PCCs that much although I am aware of a general complaint about the braking on the all electric PCCs not being as good as the braking on air PCCs.
-Robert King
That is a better picture, and certainly shows what I was talking about. The picture in Lou's book shows blinkers in front and folding at the center. He gives no mention in the 1961 book about the doors, either. The arrival date is early 1953 and that post-dates the removal of the ex-TRC cars. The Cleveland cars were bought because the TCC decided that it was better to buy PCC cars than convert Large Witts to one-man.
The shortage of couplers might have been the reason for the non-conversion of the doors. The cars might have been rushed into service before the instalation of MU controls, which differ from standard PCC controls. The cars had full front and rear skirts in Louisville (5 or 6 were actually delivered there, and a picture of a car running in Louisville has been posted on one of the web sites. TTC did cut the skirts, the pictures I've seen confirm that. The Pullman's skirts were cut for couplers, reportedly they had everything for MU excecpt couplers and drum switches when they arrived in Cleveland. CTS never ran them in trains. Baltimore would have, and Toronto certainly did.
The Boston all-electrics were the only all-electrics in Boston. Braking an all-electric is different than an air car. On a air car the brake is slightly released as the car stops to kill the "stonewall" effect. The shaft braking on an all-electric is very smooth and the brake pedal is held until the car stops. If you release the brake pedal on an all-electric, the brakes release. When SEPTA put all-electrics on the Woodland lines after the 1975 fire, they had had a number of roll-back accidents with all-electrics, as the operators, used to the lag an air car has when the brakes are released, forgot about the fast release of an all-electric.
The Boston cars weren't liked when they were singles, there was less love when the cars were equipped for MU. They spent most of their time on Huntington Avenue, where our President of BSM ran them during his Boston College days. He never had any problem running them, but then, being a fan knew that all-electrics are different than air cars.
I've never had problems with the all electric PCC braking, so I wasn't sure what other people were complaining about. Similarly, I've never had problems bringing a train of Gloucsters to a smooth stop, and Gloucsters only have air applied friction brakes (like an air PCC does after the dynamic falls off if the track brake isn't being used). You just have to keep in mind what type of brakes the vehicle you're operating has and how they should be used for best results.
On Peter Witts, 2766 is going to be rebuilt sooner rather than later as there is pressure from some politicians and the TTC's marketing department to have it out running in September for the TTC's 80th birthday. The lady from marketing I spoke with last week didn't appear too keen on the idea that it be only on static display when it could be running especially its restoration has been approved by the Commission and money budgeted for it a while ago.
Our three ex-Boston air cars have an emergency valve in a glass faced box aft of the RH center doors to dump the air in the doors only, but will also set off systems to brake the car. When the air is dumped, the outward folding doors are fairly easy to pull open. You can operate the car with the doors cutout, in case of faults in the system, but you'd never operate a car like that in service.
Next time I go up to Buffalo to visit our ex-Shaker Hts. cars, I'll have to see how they worked it out on emergency escape vs doors. These cars are all-electric with outward folding doors, the same as their sisters in Newark.
All-electrics also have a door balance in emergency. I'm not
sure exactly how it works as I'm more familiar with air cars,
but the idea is when the car is in emergency (via the foot pedals
on a single car or the Emergency Relay on MU cars) an electrical
signal is sent to the doors which causes them to balance, allowing
evacuating passengers to push them open.
The Kansas City PCC's (world famous despite there were 160 all-electrics) originally had the "jailbars". Toronto removed them from theirs, but Philly kept them on theirs. I think Cincinatti had them as well.
I didn't know there was a switch at 63rd and State. OTOH, if the 63rd St. line went that far, it's understandable. I drove through that intersection in 1991, and back in the 60s we used to enter the Skyway at State St. IIRC State St. dips down somewhat, as it ducks beneath that massive railroad viaduct cutting diagonally over both it and 63rd St. I immediately thought about that accident, realizing that was where it happened.
Even after that tragedy, Chicago's PCCs kept their blinker doors. Not long after that, CTA began sending the Green Hornets to St. Louis Car Co. for conversion to L cars. The only reason they accepted the Green Hornets in the first place was because the contract could not be canceled. CSL placed the order, and CTA came into being afterwards.
Say what you want, but a gasoline truck is about the worst thing for a streetcar to hit.
>>> Say what you want, but a gasoline truck is about the worst thing for a streetcar to hit. <<<
Not quite! In Munich, in 1962 a C-47 aircraft crashed onto a street hitting a streetcar. No survivors from the streetcar. Nothing but a charred and twisted skeleton of the frame of the streetcar on the evening newscast.
Tom
Yes, that would be worse.
Actually, the R142 cars have an emergency brake cord behind a small door located at each end of the car. It is clearly marked as an emergency brake. The principle behind this is the same as the covers covering the brake cord in other IRT cars. Open the door, the alarm sounds, pull the cord.
But the passenger brake is almost useless. An alarm goes off in the cab, and the train dumps next time the doors open, unless part of the train is still in the station.
PATCO and the SEPTA MFL do a good job with OPTO. PATCO has all isnald platforms and short trains. The operator sticks his head out the window and dosen't come back inside until all the doors and closed and the platform is clear. The MFL has the closed circut TV cameras that have an RF feed into the cab.
Likewise in Baltimore. At places where the train is "wrong railed", the T/O is required to get out of the seat (we have full width cabs on the operating ends, non-operating ends the door folds to close the operating position off.) and make sure that the doors close properly and nothing is caught before taking power, or if in full ATO, pushing the green lighted button to start.
All platforms are center, with the operating position on the left. The only place we "wrong rail" is at Johns Hopkins or Owings Mills, where the trains are crossed over to the inbound track before the platforms.
Sometimes it seems people care more about being on-time than helping a fellow man. Shame on the T/O, but blame can also be pointed to people who did not pull the red ball. Until people actually realize they should look out for their fellow man, conductors are needed for operation of the doors, as well as dealing with passengers. OPTO is just another way for agencies to cut back safety, so some wealthy people can buy another Mercedes.
I assume the T/O's in Chitown have a union - this is a CLASSIC example of why the rulebook should be followed and the T/O should wait for a complete closeup before moving the train regardless of the time table. But of course, the T/O will go down in flames while the policy continues in effect. Sometimes it just don't pay to get up.
1. Absolutely report the T/O to CTA. His attitude alone is unacceptable in such an occupation.
2. As to OPTO, I was once nearly dragged by R1/9's on the BB @ 135th when the C/R "buzzed" the T/O to go even though the doors were closed over my arm. So much for two employees.
3. as we all know, DC, BART, etc have been OPTO from the get-go. The newer systems have "smarter" doors which sense blockage.
4. You were right the woman was a fool.
DC was designed to be NOPTO. We have an operator for this exact type of instance and had a similar instance sometime in the past year.
A lady, somehow, got her foot stuck in between the platform and the train car at Silver Spring. This was during the time that the trains were all in manual operation. The T/O closed the doors, and since Silver Spring is an island platform, went back to the console on the right side of the train without making sure there were no people in the way. Train left, woman fell (I think she was killed but I can't tell you for certain), operator didn't know until she got to Union Station or Metro Center.
I am not saying OPTO is bad. It sounds like an instance of human failure.
I think OPTO should only be used if the train is ATO. That way, the T/O can look out the window and not worry about getting the train to move.
>>> OPTO here in Chicago is a disaster waiting to happen.... I've observed that most CTA operators merely take a quick glance down the platform, push the lever to close the doors, and then quickly duck back over to their console before the doors are even fully closed <<<
I think blaming OPTO for the negligence or poor training of the operators is misplaced. After all, if you had a C/R who took just a quick glance and pushed the door closing buttons without assuring himself that no one was caught in the doors you would have the same result.
Is Chicago converting to OPTO from having conductors? If so, it is possible that the T/Os who previously did not have to look out for passengers see their job as just moving the train, and do not realize the importance of checking the doors. It is also possible that the CTA has not adjusted schedules to allow the extra time needed for the T/O to make the proper checks. Here in Los Angeles, where the transit has always been OPTO, the T/Os are very conciencious about checking the doors after they have closed them.
Ideally, there should be monitors in the cab which would receive pictures from a station mounted camera which would show the side of the train as it pulled out of the station to check for anyone being dragged.
Tom
Chicago had conductors on all lines up until a couple years ago. When the system first went to OPTO, I noticed that T/O's were much more conscious about going "by the book" and keeping a close eye on the platforms before pulling out. However, this also had the effect of greatly increasing the dwell time at each station and had very many people upset. It's a bit of a trade-off. Now they seem to have gotten comfortable in their new roles as T/O's, and slipped into some rather bad habits in order to speed up the dwell time.
OPTO may work fine in places like Atltanta and Washington, but these are cities with much newer and larger stations with (usually) shorter trains that were designed specifically for OPTO. Also, I'd surmise that these stations don't have nearly the rush-hour crush crowds that places like NYC and Chicago have on their transit systems, and they're not dealing with old, crowded stations with numerous visibility obstructions such as curved platforms or columns along the platform edges.
Conductors would certainly be no cure-all, but I still think the CTA should have conductors on all trains at least during rush hours, as well as give T/O's some reminders on how to do their jobs.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The T/O is at fault here and should be reported.
Now, exactly why could you push through the crowd to get off the train at Lake but not get to the red ball at Washington? Not to say your not doing so was a bad thing but despite that announcement "Please take not of the evacuation procedure, located throughout the car," the average commuter doesn't know you are a railfan who knows how the train works to some extent.
Also, doesn't the train automatically announce the run number at some point along the route? When I took the Orange line back from the Loop to Midway, it said "Welcome aboard Orange Line run 705 to Midway. The next stop is..." as we left the State/Lake stop.
Now, exactly why could you push through the crowd to get off the train at Lake but not get to the red ball at Washington?
I got up from my seat when I finally realized the idiots near the door weren't going to be of any help, and by the time I got to the ball and pulled it, the train was almost at Lake. The two stops are very close together, so we're only talking about a few seconds here. If I had known the people next to the door were idiots, I would have jumped up immediately.
Not to say your not doing so was a bad thing but despite that announcement "Please take not of the evacuation procedure, located throughout the car," the average commuter doesn't know you are a railfan who knows how the train works to some extent.
The door-release handles are plainly visible and are clearly marked as such, and anybody who has ridden the CTA on a regular basis will have seen these door-release handles being used at some point. It's not uncommon for them to be used by CTA staff and even some passengers.
Also, doesn't the train automatically announce the run number at some point along the route?
Yes, but only a couple times during the course of the route. I was listening for it, but it may have been annouced while I was passing between cars or otherwise unable to hear it. Also, it was my subtle way of letting the T/O know that his bosses would know exactly whose watch this incident occurred under when I reported it. (Notice that I asked for the run number and wrote it down before I told him about the incident.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I can't remember the door releases. I rode in June of 2000 and was paying more attention to the train operation, automated announcements, station names, and right of way, among other things. I only glanced at the evacuation procedure and did not take notice of the red balls, mainly because it didn't mean anything to me.
My Orange Line train did announced the run number after leaving State/Lake IIRC. It would make sense for such an announcement to be made after either Lake or Grand or maybe near Addison. Unfortunately, I can only look at a map and speculate the point at which people stop getting on in large numbers and start detraining in large numbers. On the orange line, it would make sense to make this announcment as the train leaves Roosvelt and the last stop along Wabash Avenue (I can't remember the name now).
And while I didn't say this earlier, I agree the doors closing announcement on the CTA is pointless. When I first rode from Midway to the loop, I noticed the annnouncement wasn't linked to the doors by about Western. I believed I asked the T/O this on the train back to Midway and she explained why it is that way but it was such a stupid reason, I can't remember it.
The other thing I noticed that was odd about the CTA chime is that the chime is before the man says "Doors are closing." I have never seen that anywhere else.
The only problem with the operator I can see is attitude. There is a matter of trying to stay on time which I can from 12 years of rail transit experience say isn't always easy. Schedules are close and minor delays add up. BUT this is not to say safety should be compromised. OPTO on trains as big as CTA's especially during busy hours stinks. At night with 2 or 4 cars OK if schedules allow but I still feel somebody should be there for doors and passenger assistances and the other person to run the train. That should be his/her only responsibility.
OPTO works fine on the MBTA Blue Line and there should be a $50 fine for try to get on or off a train after the door chims ring.
A very cheap and effective safety measure to reduce the probability of such accidents would be to install a mirror at the front of the platform, so the T/O can see the back of the train without having to get up. He would have no excuse not to check the doors.
This would help quite a bit, but the mirrors loose quite a bit of effectiveness in stations where the platform is not on the driver's cab side of the train. Otherwise, it's a good idea that's been used for years in Toronto, and London, England, who use closed circuit TV monitors in place of mirrors.
I think chimes are stupid, everyone should go with a little voice that says "The Doors Are Closing" like Portland's MAX.
Two items have been in the news lately: Brooklynites ranting about the G, and the Jets and NY 2012 trying to get a stadium in Manhattan. Putting the two together, I had an outside the box idea.
New York has a great stadium site on Randalls Island, where Downing Stadium now stands. The problem is you can't get there by transit, and the road capacity is insufficient to say the least (not that anyplace can clear an 80,000 seat stadium in less than an hour).
Perhaps one could put third rails on the New York Connecting Railroad, punch a connection into the Sunnyside Yard, and run the R over the Hell Gate Bridge. Plenty of capacity there. You'd cut it off on Randall's island, run in over a new short bridge into the Harlem Yards in the Bronx, then elevated to a spot where you could build a terminal connecting to the subways and MetroNorth. And you'd add an inter-modal station, with LIRR and AMTRACK service, at Sunnyside.
With the other G subway connections, plus connections to all the commuter railroads, millions would be just one short transfer and a quick ride from the stadium. Normal G service is just half trains once every 10 minutes, of course, but off peak during major events you could put "G" signs on some of those full length "F" trains and run 25 tph to the stadium. The G could thus move 30,000 per hour to Randalls Island FROM EACH DIRECTION. With the ferry industry growing, there would be plenty of opportunity for boat service to and RI Stadium as well. When there is no event, normal G service would make the park on RI accessible.
Of course many people would drive. But signs mounted on all major roadways could warn people to stay away from the Upper FDR, Harlem River, Lower Deegan, Upper BQE, and Grand Central west of LGA, as well as the Triboro, when the beginning or end of an event is likely to cause a traffic jam. Just to keep people away, the toll could rise to $10 for 90 minutes before an event begins and 30 minutes before and 60 minutes after it ends -- double without EZ-Pass. The high toll would be collected in lieu of a parking fee, eliminating the parking lot traffic jam so common in stadia.
A stadium on level ground has got to be cheaper than one in an active rail yard. The added tolls/parking fee during events could be used to defray the cost of the G extension and stadium. And if the City really does extend the Flushing Line, the new convention center on the west side could be topped by massively taxpaying hotels rather than a tax eating stadium. We need the hotels.
Just a thought.
The MTA is very smart. If even one station served by the G only was ADA compliant the cutback to Court Square could have been thwarted on that basis (disabled pax could no longer get from the G to the Archer Ave stations). But since the MTA never made any G stations (even Metropolitan/Lorimer with the recent rehab) ADA compliant they don't have to worry about this. I always wondered why no elevators were put in there...
Since a lot of people here seem to have questions about short turn trains and lay-ups, I'm gonna write here all the short-turns I know (not off hour-service).
1-137 st? I'm not sure if they still run this
2-No short turns
3-No short turns, though during Lennox Const., 3's went express from 96th to 137th
4-no short turns
5-they don't really have any short turns, but then again, they never seem to know if they're going to Flatbush, New Lots Av., Utica or Atlantic.
6-E-177th St. Parkchester. Local 6 trains terminate here while 'thru exp trains go all the ay to the end of the line (Pelham)
7-111th St. I don't know if anyone here has seen this, but on Game nights for the Mets, some stop at Shea (they should just run 'em all the way)
9- no short turns
A-Some morning rush hour A trains terminate at Dyckman and then run again during the evening rush. This is mostly the Rockaway Pk. trains, but a couple others do this also. Stops along the Rockaway Shuttle Admonish riders that rush hours A trains from rockaway pk. only run to 59th. st., Manhattan. I've never seen this, can anyone confirm?
B-no short turns
C-" " "
D-" " "
E-" " "
F- Sometimes, peak direction express service is used, and F trains terminate at Kings Hwy.
G-No short turns
J-" " "
L- B'way east NY used to be atlantic.
M-No Short Turns
N- Shoutbound trains turn at Whitehall
Q-No Short Turns (rumored some run up broadway to 57/7, not really a short turn)
R-Southbound trains go to Whitehall
Z-no short turns
Anyone who has more info, please add it.
The 4 and 5 in the AM rush: some end at Bowling Green.
7 has daily short turns at Shea.
The 'R to Whitehall' often ends up terminating at 14th after running express down B'way.
Put Ins:
R at Canal and Whitehall.
F at Kings Highway and somewhere north of 4th ave (I see trains run lite from KH to 4th ave on the express track).
A at 59th to Rockaway Park.
5 at Bowling Green in the PM rush. First few to Dyre, rest to 238.
7 at 111.
All F NB putins that run express from Coney switch to the local track at 4th ave interlocking. I'm not sure where they beging making local stops. I always assumed Smith-9th
[I'm not sure where they begin making local stops.]
Generally, those "F" put-ins begin service at Jay Street.
I've never heard in years of an F express that wasn't due to a disruption.
Not in service. During the PM rush, half of the Queens bound F trains don't go into service until they get to Jay St. They use the center express track and the unused express tracks north of Church all the way to Jay St, non stop, coming out of the yard at Ave. X.
<<< During the PM rush, half of the Queens bound F trains don't go into service until they get to Jay St. They use the center express track and the unused express tracks north of Church all the way to Jay St, non stop, coming out of the yard at Ave. X. >>>
What time would one see these trains running down the unused express tracks in Brooklyn?
Appreciate any info. Thanks!
Jim (RailBus)
1:30 PM onwards
I've seen some as late as 4:30 PM. They must have a lot.
I thought they laid up about 12 sets in the Ave X yard during the day...
Well, not that early.
They start around 3:20 and continue for a few hours.
...Running 'express' on the local track north of 4th ave...
True, but only because of the Bergen St. fire. Normally, they'd stay on the express track all the way to Jay St.
Nope, Jay St.
<>
No. I ride up b'way everyday, and everyday i see R: Broadway local to Whitehall St.
Coming back from Broad St. after the AM rush, most Z trains drop out at Eastern Pkwy. and layup to ENYD.
1 runs out of 137 St only during GOs that close down upper B'way.
3 - During the Invert Rehab, 3s ran LOCAL from 72 St to 137/B'way during the AM rush when 2 trains were laying up north of 96 St. At other times, it ran express to 96 St, then local to 137.
During current Livonia Ave el reconstruction, midday 3 service terminates at Utica Ave. There are also four 3 trains that come out of 137 St on the AMs and return there on the PMs.
4 - During middays, 4 Service terminates at Atlantic Ave.
7 - There are two or three PM trips that terminate at Shea every weekday, as well as AM and PM trips that terminate at 111 St and relay to the southbound or lay-up to Corona.
5 - Somewhere between 1000 and 1100, there should be two 5 trains that terminate at Atlantic Ave (sometimes they will terminate at Utica) and lay-up on the Manhattan-bound express track. During the AM rush, there are two that relay at Utica Ave as well as one 2 train that relays and becomes a 5 for the trip uptown. Towards the end of the AM rush, there should be five or six 5 trains that will either terminate at Utica or at New Lots (depending on how the road has been that morning) and lay-up at Livonia Yard
E - trains sometimes ends at Union Turnpike at the ends of rush hours
N - even though the signs on the express track say N (and R) trains go to Queens from this platform (those that turn at Whitehall), the short N runs only go to Canal.
Hi,
Over the years I've used different airport mass transit options including:
*the NY JFK Train to The Plane,
*MARTA in Atlanta,
*the Airlink Train/Bus NJ Transit service for Newark Airport
* Harbor Ferry from Boston/Logan over to the Aquarium area of downtown Boston.
But my vote for best rail line linking the city to the airport goes to Philadelphia's Septa (R-1) Airport Line. For those that have never experienced this service here are my reasons for endorsing it so strongly:
1) Track runs parallel to the auto roadway for departure area. The train stops at all major terminals with minimal walking distance to an escaltor up to terminal/ticketing area, especially helpful with luggage.
2) Catching the train after a flight is equally easy. Follow the signs for Septa, electronic signs tell you how many minutes to the next train (typically 20-30 minute intervals) and you're on your way.
2) Runs virtually express (one stop in between) from the airport to the major center city stations connecting to virtually every other Septa line to suburban Philadelphia, West Trenton and Trenton stations.
3) The airport train fare is $6 and if you are coming from the Langhorne area for instance (where Reedman Chevrolet and Sesame Place is) it's cheaper than the gas, the hassle of passing thru downtown Philly on the way to the airport as Phila. Int'l is 10 miles south of downtown.
4) Now here's the pay off for northern New Jersey and even NYC residents. Sometimes you can get a significantly lower fare from Philadelphia than the NY airports in certain markets.
If the savings is say $250 or more on a ticket, you can spend at most $20 each way to get from Penn Station in NY or Newark to Philly airport. Take the NJ Transit Northeast Corridor line to Trenton (about $16 RT off peak)and change for the Septa line. Pay the conductor the fare onboard, and ask how and where to get to the airport line changing at a downtown Philly station. From Penn Station NY to Philly airport, approximately 3-3.5 hours with good connections. Again, maybe worth it if you can snag a significantly lower airfare, especially given Philly is a hub for US Air overseas. This may also be helpful with last minute e-saver fares if you subscribe to this practice or bid on fares on Priceline.com and they ask for alternate airports.
Anyone else share my enthusiasm for Septa's airport rail line? If only NY could have planned such a wonderful system for LaGuardia or JFK......
West End
The fare is only $5 to ride the R1 to Centre City from the Airport and $6 from some of the outlying zones. You can buy Zone 6+ tickets for through CC travel. I don't know how they work, but the TVM's have options up to Zone 12. Whenever my dad would fly into or out of PHL, he would take the R1 and then PATCO. Then one time I flew out of PHL I took the R1. Very fast, very plesant. The best part is you don't have to deal with I-95, but it's probably more expensive than driving, unless you plan to park.
Not sure about the cheaper than driving arguement: Here's why...
Suppose you live 40 miles north of Philly International in Bucks County. If someone drives you, that's 80 miles round trip or 4 gallons of gas worth $6 alone at 1.50 a gallon. Let's face it, if you are catching a flight that requires you to travel through downtown on I-95 during either the morning or evening rush hour, it can take well over an hour to travel that 40 mile distance.
Best bet, have a friend drop you at any Septa station, if you are in NJ, have them drop you at West Trenton or Trenton and spend the $5 or $6.
In comparison, if you try to get to Newark Airport on NJ Transit, you pay the regular one way fare to Newark/Penn Station, then you have to buy a separate ticket for $4 for the AIRLINK express bus which requires you to haul your luggage up the stairs and outside to a exhaust fume ridden waiting area. Then the bus is at the mercy of traffic approaching the airport and drops you at those bus lane holding areas by each terminal.
It's still a deal to pay $15 to do this from Princeton/Trenton as opposed to a $55 shuttle van service, but NJ Transit needs to simplify the process. What's the latest on the rail connection to Newark Airport? When is it due to open, will it simply connect to Newark Penn and what will the cost be?
Septa's airport service is a pleasure, especially once you get to the airport. It's better than Atlanta's Marta, in that Marta's entrance to the station is at the furthest end from one baggage claim area, you have to buy a token ahead of time to board which is not fun if you are juggling luggage and it's pretty much a local service stopping at many stops before reaching the downtown stations (Peachtree Center, etc.)
But it does win on the frugal side, tokens are what, $2 tops to downtown Atlanta?
Excellent mass transit to a major airport is a major plus.
Oh yes, there's still talk of making Trenton/Mercer Airport a medium size airport with a major carrier. The latest airline mentioned to serve them is AirTran (the old Value Jet), Southwest Airlines pulled out of negotiations and there is a ton of local community opposition due to noise and traffic. However, the airport is only 2 miles or so from the West Trenton station, so a good candidate for decent mass transit connections if it ever becomes a secondary airport like an Islip in Long Island.
Please return your seats to their upright and locked positions as we land at Bangor International (Steven King's Langolier Airport, great movie, catch it sometime!)
West Trenton West End Express
What about WMATA?
The yellow line is only a 10 minute ride to the airport from L'Enfant Plaza and 15 to Gallery Place. From those two stations, its only a matter of minutes to any other station on the system. The blue line also serves the airport but the trip to DC is about 3-5 minutes longer.
but that's only the national airport, not the international airport, and you have to go to union station and take the MARC to the BWI station. Then you've got to take the shuttle which doesn't really run very well in my opinion.
BWI is Baltimore's airport, not Washington's.
Dulles is on the other hand and now has express MetroBus service directly from downtown on the 5A. I have yet to ride this route. It runs approximately once an hour 7 days a week stopping only at L'Enfant Plaza, Rosslyn, Herndon P&R, and Dulles.
Are there plans to add any new stations when the International and Commuter terminals open?
There will be a new stop for the new Terminal 1 (international) but I do not believe there are any plans to extend service to the new domestic terminal (Terminal F). Part of the difficulty is the way the roadways are configured past Terminal E - arrival and departure roads converge at this point, thus the available R/W isn't there unless the roadways move.
I agree that SEPTAs airport service is of a very high calibre.
It is a great deal for $5 and better if you consider that a SEPTA day pass gives you one regional rail ride to or from Center City. That pass only costs $5. Essentially you pay for the airport ride and the trolleys, subways and buses are free for the rest of the day!
I do share your enthusiasm for the SEPTA Airport Service and have used it several times since it started.
Other noteworthy existing train to plane connections that I have tried are in:
Chicago O'Hare (not bad),
Chicago-Midway (walk is a little bit long with bags and the trip downtown gets a little long with all the intermediate stops),
Cleveland (been there a long time)
Washington-NATIONAL (Reagan as it is called now WHICH in my opinion is probably the best when all things are considered)
Baltimore - BWI (not great with the long wait for some cramped little bus shuttle). and
Altanta (Right up there behing National, works great except when the crowds get heavy as they usually do, but as a mass transit supporter I suppose I shouldn't whine about this point)
There is also a very convenient one at South Bend to the electrified CSS&SB line which is actually closer than the rental cars to the terminal, but it doesn't really serve much unless you happen to use this route to get to Chicago, for some strange reason.
The planned stop at Harrisburg Airport may eventually become noteworthy train to plane, if the Harrisburg Commuter Rail service that is being talked about a little bit seriously comes to fruiting. Otherwise the six or seven Amtrak trains that would stop there each day in each direction won't really be worth that much.
And the Amtrak (MBTA?/RIDOT) Providence Airport Station might really become high on this list as well.
For BWI (and the train), take the Light Rail from BWI to Penn Station for Amtrak and MARC. Conversly, take MARC/ATK from DC to Baltimore, then Light Rail from Penn Station to BWI.
or take the FREE shuttle bus from BWI to the BWI/ATK, MARC station
I agree that the Airport line is one of SEPTA's best offerings but the $5 price could be lower (it was intentionally set at the highest zone fare). With the new jobs available both at the Marketplace within the airport and new office buildings out on Bartram Ave (just across I-95) the line has gained many daily commuters. Of course, the better option for the office buildings is to jump off at the 'temporary' Eastwick station and catch a bus from there.
The signs advising the next train time is a bit amusing. The last time I arrived at our airport, my flight came in at 1:15 AM (and, yes, it was scheduled that way). It was a bit of a chuckle to see the sign display a 'next train 6:09 AM' message at that ungodly hour!
Five dollars isn't bad compared to how much it would cost to park a car at the airport for a week. I think airport employees should get a really big discount, though.
Mark
Five dollars isn't bad compared to how much it would cost to park a car at the airport for a day. When I've used the airport train, my wife and I were the only airline passengers using the service; all the other passengers looked like airport employees.
A reverse commuting success, and as an afterthought!
The price is cheap compared to the parking fees, but it's still amazing how many cabs still carry fares between 30th St and the Airport. Not having taken a cab for some time, I believe this fare is somewhere in the neighborhood of $20, so $5 still looks good to me!
The comparison is to couples or families who fly, which is often the case. The train fare increases directly with the number of passengers, while the cab fare or parking price starts to effectively decrease as the number of passengers increases. This is why I think the revision in fare to a Zone 2 or Zone 3 would make more sense.
It is really a great line. And what's even better is that it's supposedly almost always on time about 99% or so, and if it's more than 15 minutes late, the ride is free. What I like about the R1 schedules is that they have a layout of the zone system, quite helpful if you are using any other regional rail line.
For the tourists and this is my first time on SEPTA types. No other regional rail line goes to the airport, any other major airport, or any place of interest unless you can't walk thru the CBD.
Well, there aren't any other airports in the area, except for the northeast airport. Also, I don't really think the Regional Rail was meant for tourism, just as commuter rail for commuters. In Center City you can connect to other division rail lines to go to some points of interest, and there are many routes like the 76 that take you to places like the Zoo and art museum. Also, don't forget about Phlash, the route that was created for tourists.
>>> But my vote for best rail line linking the city to the airport goes to Philadelphia's Septa (R-1) Airport Line <<<
It has been quite awhile since I have been there, but my vote would go to the Frankfurt Main airport where you can go directly from the terminal to catch not only commuter trains to the city, but mainline trains to anywhere in the country, and beyond.
Tom
Guess we should sub divide this into Domestic versus International travel.
Speaking of International, that will still be a limitation of the new JFK Airtrain service. If all it's going to do is connect you to Howard Beach station or whatever it is and then you have to venture on the A train to make it to midtown Manhattan where most tourists are headed, it diminishes the user friendly component.
A rail link that allows a person that has never been to that city to go directly to the downtown area from the airport without having to stress out over the newness of a strange place is the answer.
This is where Philly, Atlanta, Washington, etc. will always have a leg up on New York.
At that was at least one advantage of the old train to the plane JFK express in that although you had to transfer to a bus, you knew that it was all one line designed to get you from the CBD to the airport.
Bye!
It looks like we may see a heavy coastal snowstorm ride up the coast.
Models and patterns point to the storm staying offshore enough that precip stays all snow, even along the coast.
Heavy blinding snow with strong winds is likely Sunday night and Monday, with a foot of snow looking likely.
I'm sure the folks at NYCTA will issue their plan. Probably the highest weather alert, all trains will be stored underground and surface or elevated lines suspended. I doubt the LIRR or LI Bus will have service either. It looks like a real mess.
This time I'm distributing notices in ADVANCE of the snowfall to my north shore neighboors, making sure sidewalks are shoveled.
With some people saying this storm may be as severe as the infamous '96 blizzard, it's gonna be hell to get around without a car. Especially in "what's a shovel" Sea Cliff.
I just hope subways and buses aren't affected for days. It's gonna be a mess. :-(
Yep. The pieces are coming together. A strong disturbance over mexico and a stationary low over canada will come together with the low over the south to form a big storm. The big question right now, is how far north is gets. Philly looks like ground zero right now. The coastal low will stall (looks like off of NJ) because the canadian one, that retrograded, will hand off it's energy to it, and the coastal will have to wait for it. Pressure in the coastal could drop to 960mb's which would mean extreme wind. Coastal flooding and beach arrosion will be a major factor. We could see 2 feet from this, sunday night into Monday and Tuesday.
NWS has issued a Winter Storm Watch for our area, and that will most likely be upgraded to a Winter Storm Warning, tonite or tomorrow, and probably a Blizzard warning in the storm. This shouldn';t be taken lightly.
BTW, some models have us slammed. I think the hpc has over 3 inches of qpf, with a ratio of 1:10 that would mean over 2 feet.
we gotta watch this. This could be snowier tahn 96 and stronger than 93 (I think the pressure there dropped to 960mb's)
Looks like a humdinger. In my first month at the TA, I read through the "Winter Operations" policy instruction and, more recently, read a piece on snow in the recent TA Newsletter. The Department of Subways is very proud that it didn't get shut down in the 12 inch snow. There was an article on the TAs new anti-winter equipment. Let's see how they handle a mega-blizzard. Go Team!
The timing is just like 1996 -- start mid-day Sunday, snow through Monday. As I recall, no one went to work on Monday, everyone just shoveled.
On Tuesday we thought about going to work, but decided against it. The city was still shut down, though the TA was running some service on underground lines. The F was a one train shuttle from Church to 4th, with a connection to the underground 4th Avenue line. You couldn't even get on a train, they were so crowded and infrequent.
On Wednesday we walked down to 4th Avenue and took a packed train to work. The Brighton and Sea Beach were still knocked out, and the F was still limited to a shuttle. Things didn't get back to normal on the subway until Thursday. Local streets in Brooklyn didn't get plowed until a January thaw melted much of the snow two weeks later.
Oh well, it might just be another foot. The TA can handle that fine.
As of noon Sunday, the TA will move to a Plan IV. Everything will be moved underground and the Emergency Command Center will be activated.
On my way home from work this morning, along the Eastern Pkwy express tracks there was:
Two: #3 trains
One: #4 train
One: #2 train
Im sure there are more to follow.
Under plan IV, will the F run through, or just as a shuttle?
The good news is the forecasters say the storm is heading straight for NYC. That will make it stronger, but will turn some of the snow to sleet and rain, then back to snow. Now they are saying 6 to 12 inches, not 24 to 30 inches,in the city, with the northern sububs getting socked.
If that holds, school will be cancelled, but I gotta go to work.
All lines will run normally, weather permitting of course. The F should be ok between 179st and Church ave at the very least.
THEY are now saying no more than 3-5 inches by tuesday mostly rain, mostly hype.
Peace,
ANDEE
Who is they? I'm still hearing anywhere between 1 and 2 feet.
NY1 reporting it live right now
Peace,
ANDEE
But NOAA Radio is not saying the same thing, nor is accu-weather.
-Hank
I've been listening to News Radio 88 all morning and they are not reporting a downgrade, at least not yet. It may have to do with the fact that Todd Glickman isn't on this weekend.
The only good thing about SNOOZERADIO 88 is Todd. When he's not on it's not worth listening to for anything, IMO. This is what happens with deregulation, the same company owning both news stations in NY, disgusting.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yup, I'm not working (at least on the radio). I'm at my office at MIT catching up on the 500+ emails that have accumlated during my two-week trip to Asia!
Since this is SubTalk and not WeatherTalk (there is one!), I won't dwell on this: Just remember that it ain't over until it's over. This will be a very close call between a very nasty blizzard and a run-of-the-mill winter mess. A few miles will make a BIG difference in this one. Be prepared for the worst and hope for the best. And may all your subway trips be at the STORMFAN WINDOW.
Here in Boston, we're much more likely to have a nasty storm. I'll be coming into the city on my usual MBTA commuter train tomorrow morning, and will report on how the MBTA is handling the storm.
Hell, the Catholic Schools in Brooklyn and Queens have already decided to shut down for Monday AND Tuesday. If the storm passes, I hope they can re-boot for Tuesday.
All very iffy. In 1996, Brooklyn was hit the hardest, with less snow further in land. This time, our location by the ocean might spare us.
Which,of course means us poor sops up here in Orange County better start hitchin' up the sleds and dogs...lol EVERY storm this year has hit US hard.....
"Which,of course means us poor sops up here in Orange County better start hitchin' up the sleds and dogs...lol EVERY storm this year has hit US hard"
The furthur upstate you are, the less you will get according to the local weather here. This is a coastal thing, the closer you are to the coast, whether it be New Jersey or Long Island, the worse it will get.
Bill "Newkirk"
Todd, how will Long Island fare? Will we get dumped on here in Sea Cliff while Wantagh just has a little mess?
Yo Todd.
Just 2 questions. What MBTA Commuter Train line you have to take to get to Boston? Do you ever been on the Bi-Level cars everytime you go to Boston?
Dominick Bermudez.
My regular line is the Lowell line into North Station. Bi-levels do not run on this side. All of the bi-levels are on the south side (into South Station), as that's where the larger crowds are. Occasionally I take the Attleboro/Providence line in, and get to ride the bi-levels.
My regular line is the Lowell line into North Station. Bi-levels do not run on this side. All of the bi-levels are on the south side (into South Station), as that's where the larger crowds are.
Are there clearance problems with using bi-levels into North Station, or is it just because of lower ridership?
There are no clearance problems on the north side. In fact, for a brief period two years ago, we had a few bi-levels on this side, when North Station platforms were cut short for construction. It's just a ridership issue.
Max train length on the north side is seven single level cars. On the south side, max train length is eight cars, seven of which are bi-levels (one single level 500-series car is required per trainset to provide lav service).
I live on the Fitchburg line and I have NOT seen ANY KAWASAWKI BI LEVELS. BUT the franklin line and the Framingham/Worcester line have bi levels. I guess A kawasawki bi level can't fit into North Station.
Kawasaki bi-levels can fit in North Station. About three years ago, the platforms were shortened due to Big Dig work, and there were two trainsets of four cars (single=bilevel=bilevel=single=engine) to make up for usual six-car trains that couldn't fit.
And when I began commuting on the Lowell line about seven years ago, bi-levels were occasionally in service.
It's just demand that keeps them on the south side.
Why no Bi-Levels into North Station? Since you do get a chance to ride the Bi-Levels on the Attleboro/Providence Line. Do you like the Bi-Levels?
Dominick Bermudez.
The nicest feature of the Kawasaki bi-levels is the airbag suspension. They're much smoother and quieter than the MBB and Bombardier singles.
It seem's that you preety munch like it. Do you?
Dominick Bermudez.
"Here in Boston, we're much more likely to have a nasty storm. I'll be coming into the city on my usual MBTA commuter train tomorrow morning, and will report on how the MBTA is handling the storm"
I'll be right with you, Todd...I'll see if I need to go to my internship at WHDH-TV a bit early, since even Tuesdays commute could be rough too! Welcome back :-) -Nick
*A sigh of relief*
I have a lot of computer simulations to do these days.
Chaohwa
WTOP Radio (Washington) is saying that it will only be later than originally predicted and where you are affects you but I'm still expecting at least 6 inches AND a school closure (more time to sleep and SubTalk).
Todd, I read your bio online and it said you used to broadcast on WTOP? Is that true and when did you do that? Now all of our forecasts are from the Weather Channel which I believe broadcasts from Atlanta. I can not confirm that though since when I rode MARTA, I never heard an announcement for the Weather Channel (they had virtually everything else).
REVISED Washington Forecast:
Now WTOPNews.com sasy 4 inches.
I still don't want to go to school tomorrow.
I was on WTOP back in the late 70s through the mid 80s. At that time, I worked for a private weather company in suburban Boston; every weekend I was on 50+ radio stations all over the country.
Too young to be listening to WTOP back then. Most of the current anchors and staff is relatively new, most came the day the blizzard of '96 hit. I remember that because that day, it was mostly new anchors and I made the assumtion those were the closest to WTOP's studios in Northwest. Well, I guess I am wrong because Mike Moss and Richard Day are still on the morning drive. Bob Madigan is still with WTOP but not as an anchor and Debbie Feinstien is long gone.
It is too bad WTOP won't do the Orioles anymore. Now I will have to listen to WTEM for the ball games and WTOP for traffic and weather together. WTOP only does transit during rush hours and they don't even do it during all the traffic reports. Once, they just said too many delays to tell you about although then, about a minute later, the anchors let us know what was going on.
Of course the north shore of LI will probably get hit hard.
My guess is
Eastern Suffolk-around 6 inches
Western Suffolk and southeastern Nassau 6-10 inches
Most of Nassau and NYC-Around 12 inches
North shore of Nassau county and NW Suffolk 12-15 inches
For Westchester,Bergen, and northern suburbans 15-20 inches
Up to 2 feet possible northwest of there.
Still a messy storm, but fortunately not a disasterous one.
Here--try a real one:
weather.com
Now that you work for the TA, you know there is no such thing as "taking a snow day!"
(Now that you work for the TA, you know there is no such thing as "taking a snow day!")
Here's an interesting point. At City Planning, a large share of the people I worked with lived in Brooklyn, and many of the older staff lived in Manhattan. In my unit at the NYCT, we've got three Nassau County residents, one New Jersey resident, and a resident of Little Neck, Queens, right on the Nassau border. One takes a bus from Valley Stream to Jamaica. Another drives into Queens and park-n-rides on the A. Two take the Long Island Railroad, another a New Jersey commuter bus.
I'm not sure if any of these folks will TRY to go to work tomarrow, but what are the odds that any will GET THERE? I plan to walk down to the all-underground R if the F isn't running. The kids will be with me -- no Catholic School for two days. What's are the advantages of living in Brooklyn? Walking and the subway.
How are all those train operators going to get to work?
The TA prefers that their workers live in the city but of course cannot mandate it. The TA expects their workers to find a way to get in. How? Frankly I don't think the TA cares how! The railraod has to run! As a practical matter, even a T/O or C/R who lives in eastern Queens or Nassau Co. (and most need do and need a bus or LIRR to get in) and works on the E/F/J/Z may have a big problem getting in if the buses stop running since you can't put chains on todays buses because they destroy the fibergalss wheel-wells. I don't know what happened out there in 1996 with the personel because I was on the M at the time. I trudged thru the snow to Metropolitan Ave. although I sat around for almost 2 workdays because service was suspended. Since I work an all underground line (E) it is not affected by weather conditions. I have a 3 to 4 mile tredge to Queens Blvd/Grand Ave. Since the severity of the storm is downgraded, I'll bite the bullet: this time!
Perhaps a motel room somewhere in NYC would solve the problem of subway motormen and conductors getting to work from the suburbs or outer areas of the city.
Of course this costs money, and some probably can't afford it.
But if the TA put up the motormen and conductors somehwere (as well as other staff) than it would be easier on the worker. But that's just a weird fantasy isn't it?
(The TA prefers that their workers live in the city but of course cannot mandate it.)
Acutally, the TA does mandate it. It's a New York City law, and has been for decades. I signed the agreement to live within the city twice, once in 1986, once a month ago when I rejoined the TA. City workers are required to live in the city, unless exempted by state law or a NYC decision.
Somehow transit workers were not part of the "let the influential NYC employees flee to suburbs where taxes are lower and public services are better" law, which passed in the Wagner Administration. Police, teachers, sanitation workers, and fireman were allowed to go -- all the high-paid civil service trades other than transit. Low paid civil servants (ie DC37) where kept in the city, rather than being allowed in the suburbs.
For that reason, perhaps, all the high-paid civil service titles remained predominantly white through 1990, according to the census of population that year, while the low paid civil service titles became predominantly Black and Latino. Again, transit was the exception, with high paid minority workers. I've noticed the growing predominance of minorities and immigrants in TA management, 30 years after they began moving into the rank and file. Hasn't hurt MDBF much.
But guess what? All the minority "suits" in my unit live out in the 'burbs! I asked about that, and was told that the residency requirement is not really enforced.
Figures, because while the NYCT has a historical legacy as a city agency, it is actually run by New York State, and has been since 1968. The state has no incentive to keep well paid taxpayers living in its least favorite municipality.
They could give up the ghost and pass a law allowing all New York public employees to live anywhere in the state, but in that case NYC residents would be allowed to compete for government jobs in the suburbs. Can't have that.
Sorry, Larry, but us poor peon RTO employees do not have to live inside the City limits. Maybe you folks downtown do... As for getting in, I did what I do every Sunday night - get up at 10:30, shower, get dressed, get in my car and drive from Staten Island to 241 St/White Plains Rd so that I can make an 0043. Of course, if there REALLY had been a severe snow storm, I would first see if NYCT buses on Staten Island were running; if not, I have a legitimate excuse for not showing up - no NYCT service (note that while I usually drive (I get an extra hour and a half of sleep) they cannot require me to, especially since they provide service where I live).
(Sorry, Larry, but us poor peon RTO employees do not have to live inside the City limits. Maybe you folks downtown do.)
So perhaps its by title? They certainly expect me to live in the city, or at least I had to sign to that effect. Not that I regret living in Brooklyn in the least!
I was on the No.2 myself early Monday morning. My 6:15 report at 239 YD turned into a 3:45 Report at 96 Street. Lucky when I got to 96 St. the SUPT. said there was no train for me and to deadhead to 239 Yd and pick up a train in the Yard after 6:30.
CSX up here in Albany county is trying to roll through everything they can to the north and west. Latest projections say we're going to get two MORE feet of snow (and just when we were starting to see the tops of dead shrubs here and only about 20 inches on the ground). NYC is going to definitely cover the schmutz with something white and pretty ... that was one of the things I loved when I lived in the city - the white snow making everything look clean and pretty ... for about ten hours or so when it started turning black. Heh.
Up here, we got hit with snow in December and it never really did melt in all this time ... it's pretty even without it. I just measured out here now and we've still got about 20 inches here in Voorheesville, NY on the grass and about 5 on the driveway. We had "lake effect snow" wherein it snowed for about 60 hours until about 12 hours ago here.
So enjoy, take comfort in the fact that Rudy is locked up in the Reichsbunker with his honey and his whips ... at least he ain't wandering the streets. :)
>>>So enjoy, take comfort in the fact that Rudy is locked up in the Reichsbunker with his honey and his whips ... at least he ain't wandering the streets. :) <<<
Which one is wielding the whips? Judi, I bet.
Peace,
ANDEE
In the most formal legal latin, "No lo contendre" ... masks and gags optional of course, void where prohibited by law. Question is, DID he make the trains run ... ON TIME? ...
LOL!!
15 to 20 inches look likely as storm moves slow and has rapid bombogenesis. Coastal areas won't be spared, they may even get it the hardest. 2 feet, or even more is possible, especially in the southern half of New Jersey.
It's gonna be a real mess alright, and those mounds of snow will probably block everything.
Hopefully NY State will issue a snow emergency, which will only allow emergency vehicles on the roads. Hopefully this state of emergency
will continue 24 hours after the snow stops so streets are cleared.
I have distrubuted shoveling notices to most residences along my walk to the bus stop, but if we get 20 inches or more, they'll have no place to put the snow but on the sidewalk. That's the way it was in 1996.
Cars better drive carefully once this thing is over, because there will be people walking in the street.
Well look on the bright side, I don't have a car to shovel out!!
Metro North will probably be affected by this storm significantly if it pans out to be as bad as 1996. Meanwhile like everybody else they're preparing for the worst. Most forecasters are calling for up to 1 to 2 feet of snow with a few spots getting more. Exactly how much we wind up getting all depends upon the track of the storm. There are quite a number of variables involved but I think it is best to expect a doozy.
BMTJeff
If this snowstorm you guys are getting is the rain we had out here in California last week, lotsa luck!!!!
It rained for seven days straight here, most of it the good, heavy stuff. We got more rain last week than we normally average in TWO years!!! It was like "El Nino" was coming back for a second visit.
Latest computer model is showing NYC in rain for a good part of the storm. The line is progged to be northwest of NYC. Of course this could just be a bad run. And coastal mixing or changeover doesn't help us much on the north shore, we'll still get slammed.
Steve Hoskins:
The NOAA is expecting a return of El Nino during the Winter of 2001-2002 and next winter might be rather mild with little snowfall.
BMTJeff
El Nino can sometimes mean MORE storms.
That XFL game at the Coliseum last week was a splashfest. Mind you, I only watched the very end of it; I don't particularly care for the XFL. Not a whole lot of mud, though. Did they redo the field drainage when the Coliseum was remodeled?
thank god we got the subways, i highly doubt it they'll get affected
The elevated lines and the open cuts will! On the open cuts, and on the "thru spans", which are the areas on the elevated structure above the token booths, the accluminating snow acts like the stop arm on a signal, and the third rail freezes up. 600 volts does not generate heat!
Well ... it's official ... we're declaring a "neener level nine" emergency for the coming storm. This will mean that security officers are now on their way to Heypaul's apartment to confiscate the R9 cab since it appears to have a working windshield wiper and is therefore necessary to the city's emergency transit plan. Rudy's already shovelled himself into the bunker with a fresh set of whips in case the Port Authority gets "uppity" again. :)
JUST BRING IT!!!!
Having been to an academic institution which
closes at the mere sprinkle of salt on the ground,
Meteorologists have proven more often than not
to be mostly hype and low on truth speak.
-AMEN
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm in Hastings-on-Hudson, New York and there is only a coating of snow on the ground and the snow has generally been on the light side. All the schools in Westchester County are going to be CLOSED tomorrow because of the expected inclement weather which will only amount to 1 to 3 inches of snow by morning. I think that this storm will be the big fizzle of 2001 since they have downgraded it further. New York City and the nearby suburbs are expected to get only 6 to 12 inches of snow at the most when it is all said and done. I looked at the latest radar image at AccuWeather and it show an area of NO precipitation in extreme Eastern Pennsylvania. We'll probably be in that pocket for a while tonight. I'm going to keep posted on this storm and of any changes in the forecast. I thought that this was going to be a doozy but it might turn out not to be quite as big of storm as was originally thought.
BMTJeff
Once the coastal low gets going later Monday things will get hairy. It's one of those "tricky" storms that's for sure.
It certainly was a tricky storm to forecast. This morning we had very little snow and most if it was ice anyway. It rained up here in Westchester County for part of the day before it changed back to snow and sleet. It is snowing right now and right where I am about 6 inches are expected.
BMTJeff
19 inches just west of Albany and just like that pink bunny ...
Followup on the storm you guys missed down yonder ... total here in Voorheesville, NY (located about 10 miles west of Albany on the northern fringe of the Catskills where it flattens for a few miles and becomes Adirondacks (in other words close to Schenectady and Saratoga as well as Smallbany), we topped out at 27.75 inches ... needless to say, trapped in house until we can get a frontloader in here (my personal "road" is a little over a quarter mile from the nearest village "street" since we're up on top of a hill, this ain't a snowblower/shovel kinda place) ...
CSX and CP continue to operate though both took a breather for a few hours during the 2-3 inch per hour portion of our pixmission ... a little more than a "dusting" by upstate standards but we all survived up here ... just in case anybody thinks the dire forecasts were bogus, it all happened to move about 150 miles north of where you are. Up here, it was completely "as seen on TV" ... heh.
Well down here in Hastings-on-Hudson I got 7 inches of snow from this storm. It wasn't as bad here as they had expected. I heard that Lake Placid got 3 feet of snow from this storm.
BMTJeff
Yeah, from Saratoga on north, it was 30 inches to 42 inches. Quite an impressive storm ... first time I've ever had to bring in a payloader to do my driveway. :)
42 inches is a lot of snow!!
BMTJeff
Up here, we consider 20 inches to be "a moderate dusting" and the trains continue to move. 42 inches means they've got to bring in a snowblower train so they can keep moving. Down in the city, Rudy heads for the reichsbunker for a mere 3 inches. We laugh our asses off about that up here. Three inches means that you need to turn on your wipers and that's about it. :)
But yeah, we were impressed by this last one. It's already snowing AGAIN but they say 8-12 inches this time so we're gonna go out for snowcones. Heh.
All we need in Denver is a quarter-inch of snow and CDOT breaks out in a cold sweat. They hit the panic button and send out the plows and dump trucks to dump gravel, gravel everywhere. It kills me. Well, at least they use magnesium chloride on the freeways instead of gravel. And light rail keeps running when buses are stuck in traffic.
When I got 15 inches in Hastings-on-Hudson back on December 30, 2000 that was the greatest amount of snow I had seen here since the Blizzard of 1996 when I got almost 2 feet of snow. I was able to clear the driveway with a snow shovel after the storm in December but it took a long time. Up where you are 15 inches of snow is nothing.
BMTJeff
You betcha ... we got another 6 on top of it today. Only downside is I live on 7 acres up on top of a hill and the road down it is about a third of a mile. Not exactly something a shovel could tackle before August. :)
We had to bring in a payloader since our plow guy's truck ended up lost in a snowbank up here. Hopefully in a few weeks, I'll find some of the yardsticks I lost out there trying to measure the #@%^&!@ stuff. I figure we've got about 55 inches total out there from all the schmutz the last few weeks. Maybe more.
I wonder how much snow has fallen where you are this season. Also give me the snowfall totals of nearby communities if possible.
BMTJeff
Here ya go ... since it's an offsite link, I'll just pop it up for you ... anyone who isn't interested can just hit the stop button on their browser ... Just bear in mind that the map attached is *UN*melted snow STILL on the ground. If you look to the small 20-30 inch zone near Albany, that's us. Below the map which will appear, is the text statistics for Albany which is down in the valley so they have much less than we have up here, but it'll give you some numbers, in particular the winter totals you are looking for and deveiations from normal. Do feel free to roam the site at http://web.nws.cestm.albany.edu/ if you'd like to do some digging on your own ... here in upstate, we have to do our own weather research because the (ahem) "weather channel" doesn't do squat if you don't live in Hotlanta. Heh.
And you can click below for the stats for Smallbany:
http://web.nws.cestm.albany.edu/Data/ALBPNSALB.txt
Whoopsies! Forgot to include the SEASON accumulation figures you were looking for ... they're here, do feel free to browse the whole site - just try to avoid it around news time (4-7pm weekdays, 6-7pm weekends and 11am-12:30pm and 10pm to 11:30 any day) as the local breadcasters depend on this stuff to do their "computer models" ...
http://web.nws.cestm.albany.edu/Data/ALBCLIALB.TXT
And if you want to take in the whole site and see who actually does all those "computer models" you hear so much about from those lasy-assed weather-geeks on TV, here's where THEY get it all from:
http://web.nws.cestm.albany.edu/
It is sorta on topic for here since weather forecasts cause all sorts of angst for railroads and subways ... only difference is most of your weather geeks are LAZY. :)
You have gotten plenty of snow up there in Albany. Whcih town do you live in so I'll know.
BMTJeff
Voorheesville ... north end of the Selkirk yards of CSX (former Gonerail)
You have gotten plenty of snow up there in Albany. Which town do you live in so I'll know.
BMTJeff
I saw something very wierd while going across the bridge on MNRR between Bronx and Manhattan. On the Bronx side, it looked like there was a railroad right over the water, on an El. What is that used for?
If you saw a bridge almost immediately overhead, that's the Henry Hudson parkway, a doubledecker ... to the east is the IRT broadway local (1/9) 225th street station on the north end of the bridge to the east ...
That is the Oak Point Connector, which takes freight trins from the Hudson Line tracks to the Oak Point yard. It branches off from the Metro-North Hudson line a little north of Yankee Stadium and loops around the Bronx shoreline (although since it is over the water, I guess it is technically in Manhattan). After a long delay, it went into service a few years ago, shortly after a freight hit an overpass in the Bronx while using the previous route, which involved looping from the southbound Hudson line to the northbound Harlem line, then switching to the old Port Morris line under St. Mary's Park.
Among other things, the Bombadier R-142s get delivered over this track (unless they use the old route described above, which seems unlikely). It would be nice to get a picture of that. How about a shot taken west of Yankee Stadium showing the IRT's past and future: the abandoned Sedgwick Ave. station platforms of the old Polo Grounds shuttle, with R-142s being delivered on flatcars shown on the freight track in the background?
Whoop! I thought the person was describing the Marble Hill/Spuyten Duyvil area. My bad. :)
I imagine the freights must go REALLY slow on there since it's right over the water.
I imagine the freights must go REALLY slow on there since it's right over the water.
Why would they go slow?
The track is not straight, there appeared to be alot of curves. And since it's over the water, they would go slow. It's a wise thing not to risk a derailment, don't ya think?
It's a wise thing not to risk a derailment, don't ya think?
It's a wise thing not to risk a derailment anywhere, and going fast doesn't increase a chance of derailment all that much anyway.
And I can't imagine that there would be so many curves. The river is straight.
A friend of mine, a C/R onthe LIRR, is looking for information on an accident that reportedly took place in the mid 1930s at Vanderveer Park. It allegedly involved a collision between a LIRR train and a Hew Haven train. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Pardon my ignorance. Where is Vanderveer Park?
My guess, although I could be totllly wrong would be somewhere near Sunnyside, since that's where the Hell Gate connection and LIRR meet. Where else would those two systems come together?
I know years ago there was Tower Win just east of the Woodside station that controlled the switches between the main line and Port Wash. line. It was named "Win" because at one time the area was known as the "Winfield" Section of Queens.
Vanderveer Park is a couple miles south of Broadway Junction area on the LIRR freight line to Bay Ridge. It's about where the B8 bus wound up; there was an industrial area there with a lot of freight sidings (then).
The New Haven Railroad had trackage rights (from Fresh Pond south)over the LIRR line so they could access Bay Ridge. North of Fresh Pond, it was the New York Connecting Railroad, which was jointly owned by the New Haven.
On Friday, I took the 3:00PM train from Jamaica to Patchogue. Typical of most early afternoon LIRR trains, this one was packed with a large number of tradesmen, most toting bags with multiple cans of beer. The LIRR must have planned for this because the train, a DE30AC and 6 cars, had exactly two odd numbered cars (odd cars have the bathrooms). One of those cars was the first (behind the locomotive) and the other was the cab-car. Unfortunately, the cab-car was locked, leaving just one bathroom for the five cars with hundreds of overtaxed bladders. Now that's what i call planning.
The other bathroom is obviously for the crew.
I used to ride the 4:15 out of Jamaica to Patchogue) back in the 1960's, and in those days there were a lot of P54's that were originally m.u. trailers -- and no restrooms. It would be the same sort of situation on that train then -- the rear car looked and smelled more like a beer warehouse than a railroad car. And with no restrooms and open vestibules, guess where.......never mind.
Once the train got to Babylon, a good number of the rear-car inhabitants would get off. The regular conductor had a broom, and used to sweep all those empty beer cans right out the back door onto the tracks just east of the end of third rail in West Islip!! Yet you'd never see cans all over the tracks, so someone must have picked them all up.
Interesting, one of the Port Jefferson trains on Friday had all bathroom cars.
I had a slow ride on a DE30 OB train today. We did no better than 50mph the whole way to Jamaica.
Fortunately the M-1 ride into Penn was very fast, up to 73mph on the express between Jamaica and Woodside. They crossed a E/B LIRR train in front of us around Sunnyside, but after that it was smooth sailing into Penn. The bathrooms at Penn are far from adequate also.
The bathrooms at Penn Station are state of the art compared to the passenger rest rooms at Parsons/Archer E/J/Z.
Well yeah subway bathrooms are gross. I never have been in one and I never plan to.
When you gotta go... you gotta go :)
Shawn.
Well I guess that's why some men urinate on the side of the platform. Maybe more adequate subway bathrooms would solve the problem.
Maybe they should just hang a plastic bottle w/spout in front of each seat...:0)
My fears have been realized. Two buildings are proposed for either side of Jay Street north of Flatbush Avenue, in the former wasteland right where an inexpensive DeKalb to Rutgers connection would have to go. Forget the idea that we'll build it later. Those two buildings will probably be filled with environmental lawywers and consultants. Triple the price, or better yet, forget the whole thing.
I made a big stink about this at City Planning. I was told realistically and given other priorities, nothing can be built until 2025, and we should push for that. If City Planning isn't going to think about the interaction between land use and infrastructure, who is? Having been beaten down every time it tried to do something, DCP is now left to cut shortsighted deals. Thank God I wasn't the last rat off the sinking ship.
E-mail your congratulations on the long term loss of subway service for Brooklyn to our "representatives" in Albany and on the City Council. At least the latter are term-limited, we hope.
Thank God I wasn't the last rat off the sinking ship.
You've left town?
(Thank God I wasn't the last rat off the sinking ship.
You've left town? )
Nope, just the Department of City Planning. My home train (F) doesn't go over the Manhattan Bridge, so I don't have to leave town.
I can see by your note that you have your idiotic bureaucracy to deal with. Believe me, we have the same thing out here, different occupations, but idiotic nevertheless. I have to deal with the morons in the educational heirarchy who pretend to know what's best for the kids, but they themselves taught an average of four years and then beat it into administration where they can get paid more for f%^&*(#@$ things up. My empathy is with you. All I can say is keep fighting the good fight and don;t get discouraged.
[Having been beaten down every time it tried to do something]
By the state or the mayor?
([Having been beaten down every time it tried to do something]
By the state or the mayor?)
By the Mayor, the Council, various NIMBY groups, and the development industry, depending on what it is they are trying to do.
I can imagine how frustrating that is. I get upset just talking about this stuff . . . thinking or reading about good ideas, knowing that they'll never get done or will be badly botched.
(I can imagine how frustrating that is. I get upset just talking about this stuff . . . thinking or reading about good ideas, knowing that they'll never get done or will be badly botched.)
At least we're not Larry Reuter and Peter Cafiero. Here they are going to meetings on Grand Street, getting harassed by activists, pilloried by City and State politicians, and criticized in the press for closing the station, something we and they know there is no choice but to do.
Meanwhile, what we and they also know is that the MTA recommended building a Rutgers-DeKalb connection many years ago, but the MTA board and/or those same politicians cut it out of the capital plan. I was told there was no interest in, and no support from, Brooklyn politicians on the issue. The actual statement, in a meeting on the subject at City Planning, was the only person in the city who gave a damn was ME!
I'll bet Reuter and Cafiero were DYING to throw in back in their faces, but they work for the board and the politicians, so they can't. And now that I'm on the team, I guess I really can't either, though I did fire off one last letter of complaint a week before joining the TA.
Meanwhile, what we and they also know is that the MTA recommended building a Rutgers-DeKalb connection many years ago, but the MTA board and/or those same politicians cut it out of the capital plan. I was told there was no interest in, and no support from, Brooklyn politicians on the issue. The actual statement, in a meeting on the subject at City Planning, was the only person in the city who gave a damn was ME!
Which reinforces my belief, as stated here before, that part of the reason why the Second Avenue line hasn't been built (and never will be built) is the curious silence on the part of the Upper East Side's residents. If they had campaigned hard and loud for the line, which will of course be a huge boon to the area, I have no doubt whatsoever that it would've been built ... not least because of the fact that the people in the area tend to have a lot of influence.
Upper East Side residents have not been silent on the issue. They've been very vocal - but people only hear what they want.
(Which reinforces my belief, as stated here before, that part of the reason why the Second Avenue line hasn't been built (and never will be built) is the curious silence on the part of the Upper East Side's residents.)
(Upper East Side residents have not been silent on the issue. They've been very vocal - but people only hear what they want. )
Some people matter, and some people don't. Long time NYC residents who are connected to and know how to work the political process don't ride subways. They drive, and get some kind of parking deal.
Meanwhile, the subways are loaded with immigrants, who can't vote, and (for lack of a better word) yuppies, who moved in and (the pols expect) will be moving on some day. Yes these people want subway improvements, but other people matter more. And the politicians have figured out they can buy them off with studies.
I say let's change the state motto from "Excelsior" (ever upward) to "Tondere et Aufugere" (fleece and flee). Truth in advertizing.
When I get the new plates I intend to put a VA sticker over the E in EMPIRE.
[Which reinforces my belief, as stated here before, that part of the reason why the Second Avenue line hasn't been built (and never will be built) is the curious silence on the part of the Upper East Side's residents. If they had campaigned hard and loud for the line, which will of course be a huge boon to the area, I have no doubt whatsoever that it would've been built ... not least because of the fact that the people in the area tend to have a lot of influence.]
I had the impression that that's why the stubway was being built. Rich and vocal campaign contributors, many of them Republicans, so let's built a subway from 86th Street to Midtown and make noises about extending it to 125th Street and the lower east side so no one can accuse us of neglecting the poor . . . (I have no inside information, I'm just trying to read between the lines.)
Saturday's Times
>>> Some, for instance, said they would have to spend $50 or more a week for parking.<<<
I guess they're subway snobs.
Peace,
ANDEE
QSC provided a free bus to the ferry ... it was empty most of the time.
Mr t__:^)
Well, those of you who missed riding the ferry also missed an unusual opportunity--the ability to ride the LIRR as people could before Penn Station opened.
1--Ferry from 34th Street to L.I.C.
1a--(Bus or walk to LIC LIRR)
2--LIRR train via OLD Montauk Line through Jamaica and out east.
That bus ride, while fairly fast, made the whole journey seen a lot less convenient than if the train still ran right to the ferry terminal.
Realisticly, the ferry could have provided an alternative way to deliver LIRR riders to Manhattan and relieve, in some small way, pressure on the LIRR East River tunnels and the 7 Line, but how many people do you suppose would pay $6 MORE to take the ferry than to be delievered right to Penn Station?
The Amtrak reservation system has been updated to include the new BOS-NYP-BOS Acela Express Train, which is effective this Monday. I hope it likes to run in the snow...
Does the current Acela Express like running in the snow? Or has it been yarded in favor of Amfleet consists?
It has been on the web site for awhile now. I saw it on there sometime in the past week.
They have yet to update the schedule on acela.com though. I have the schedule displayed on my website but it still shows the December 11 schedule.
And I don't think it will be going very far on Monday. I hope it likes staying in Sunnyside since it seems now the forecast can have it make it to New York but not back.
What are the odds-on favorites for what our favorite NYC Subway System look like in 24 years? Additions and deletions (heaven forbid)?
I really wouldn't bet on much beyond the 2nd Avenue Stubway and I don't even think we will get that.
I'll bite,
No second avenue subway (still being studied)
R142s still being tested/redbirds held together with bailing wire and bondo
Manny B still screwed up
R32s stil going strong
Peace,
ANDEE
Cheers to that. Don't forget the R-44s though--they'll be fine except for the big hole all the way around the car where the non-stainless steel has rusted away.
Dan
My guess is that the whole IRT will be R-142s except for possibly the 7 line, which will have the remaining R-62s, and they would be in the same situation as the R-26-28-29-33-36s are now.
Meanwhile, the BMT would have R-143 and whatever comes next, all current cars on the BMT except for strong R-68s will be gone.
One of these will happen:
1) The Manhattan Bridge will be perfect
2) The Rutgers connection to Dekalb will be made
3) There will be a four-track tunnel to replace trains on the Manhattan Bridge.
The second ave subway will be running from 63rd to 125th only.
New York will be a quite significant part of Greater Philadelphia, consisting of 25% of its population and contributing at least a third of its GDP. Philadelphia's new subway lines along Ridge Avenue, Roosevelt Blvd., South Front Street, Baltimore Ave., Rte. 42, 18th St., and Germantown Ave., and new commuter lines to Bethlehem, Allentown/Wilkes-Barre, Reading, Lancaster/Harrisburg, Vineland/Millville/Cape May, Dover/Salisbury, Princeton, and Baltimore, however, make it the transit epicenter of the Northeast. Conveniently located between the nation's financial and political capitals, it quickly surpasses NY in population and prestige, regaining its former status as second English-speaking city in the world. With its new-found wealth from Silicon Valley Forge and the Pharmaceutical and (thanks to GWBush) Petrochemical industries, it become the richest region in America. I wish.
Exactly, except where you said "Philadelphia," you meant "New York," and when you mentioned Philly landmarks you meant New York landmarks.
Isn't ego great?
Dan
NY has landmarks? I thought they had all been bulldozed. (I mean historical)...
In the Year 2525, the NYC subway will be run by the private firm of Zager and Evans.
(hint: It was a one-hit-wonder.)
The Montréal Métro has lines 1, 2, 4, and 5. Does anyone know what the line 3 would have been? Are there any plans to build it?
In the 1960's, they expected to convert one of the commuter rail lines to rapid transit and call it 3.
It was planned but never built. I think line 5 took its place in a way.
Line 3 would have been a conversion of the existing STCUM Deux-Montagnes commuter rail line.
Another route proposed along Blvd. Pie-IX would have been Line 7.
Don't know what Line 6 was supposed to be, but there was a long-ago proposal for some type of connecting route off Line 1 at the east end...
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
What format? time? topic?
I came home from the museum a while ago. I was supposed to be in the march episode, but I wasn't in it! They made it so short, practically no one was interviewed! oh well. All Mrs Basset asked me was what was I doing there, answer was I am a Volunteer tour guide. 2nd question, do u wanna work for NYCT? Answer, Yes. However, I am unsure if I wanna work for LIRR instead of NYCT though.
On my way home from the museum, I took the 2 to 42nd. I then changed for the E. When The Queens bound R32(3784), arrived at union turnpike, I noticed that there was a series of R32s as usual. But I saw ur car 3730 as the 3rd or 4th car. The lead car is 3788. It was sleeping, and I believe it will move from there on Monday at 5 right?
Thanx. By the way, has any one seen R46 5656? Thats my Favorite R46 that inspired the E to JAMAICA CENTER handle. I kept staring at the luminator on that car.
3784/85, just a few weeks ago, returned to active duty. For the almost 2 years I have worked the E line, this pair was laid up in JamYd cannibalized for parts. They received their new black floors and received an SMS. Other Phase I's are being taken o/s and are now receiving an SMS and new black flooring at the same time. Previously, like 3900/01, they went in for floor replacement, then returned to CI Main Shop later for SMS. Now all this is being done at the same time. Wonder why those black floors look so dull? They actually come back shiny, but the strong caustic chemicals in the floor detergent takes away the shine. And I hope I am not opening a can of worms here, but I can see the floor seams in the black floor cars already done. I hope the chemicals aren't somehow shrinking the black floor covering. Only time will tell!
What does SMS stand for ?
Scheduled maintance where the cars get a mini overhaul. Some parts are replaced due to their age. The trucks are overhauled for example.
On Feb.24 we found The Eastern Division Mushy Floor Champ, #4902-4903, back in service on the "M", with new floors, but they are not black, they're sort of light beige. I could tell - they have that little square plate with the ridges embedded in the floor, and they were in good shape too. I guess this is one of the R40M/R42 that got its SMS. Some of the 4300-series Slants are still hanging around the "L" too, i.e. 4388-89, 4392-93 etc.
Bill - here's a question for you - since when did they start running eight cars on the "M" Shuttle? I remember the "M" Shuttle being 4-cars, even back in the days of the R-7a/R-9 cars. Do they really need eight cars for the Shuttle?
wayne
They do not need 8 cars on the M shuttle at all, except for times like today when you have cold & snow so that you'll have fewer cars to be concerned about with freezing up in the yards (everything can't fit underground) and to have more cars on the train making contact with the third rail. Since the WillyB reopened they haven't ran 4 cars out there, and even before the bridge structure was rebuilt they ran 8 cars with rare times of 4 cars for a spell. Why stop cutting? I really don't know! Certainly, 4 cars are better for customer security and to keep vandalism down. They can certainly fit another 16 cars into FP Yard! Maybe they don't want to hire another train operator (don't want to pay?), maybe they are afraid the T/O's will forget how many cars they have, maybe they are afraid of mechanical failures because you are adding & cutting and putting "stress" on the electrical portions. Poor excuses as far as I'm concerned, but the TA has a reason for everything. I hope some passenger isn't a victim of a serious crime because the passengers are spread out too much. A letter to the TA by some non employee may give them a chance to explain their logic or lack thereof.
What is the J on nights/weekends nowadays - 4 or 8 cars ?
The J is 8 cars 24/7. In fact, the only time trains are cut is for OPTO services on the midnite B, midnite 5 and weekend G. I may be wrong, but the midnite R is 4 cars but with a 2 person operation.
You are right. It was discussed relatively recently.
Thank's for the heads-up, I saw it today. I'll keep an eye out for 5656 for ya.
Hi,
Wondering if anyone knew the specific power plants that are used by the MTA to power the subway. I am looking for information on the type of fuel that is used and the locations of the particular plants. Also, what is the difference between a solid state and rotary converter. i'm no engineering genius.
thanks
eugene
The MTA buys its power from Con-Ed so it's coming out of the grid. Who knows where it's actually generated.
If you're interested in "how it used to be", see the IRT section, look at the New York Subway: Its Construction and Equipment book, chapter on the Power House, and in the Historic American Engineering Record, the paper on Electrical Engineering.
The MTA buys its power from Con-Ed so it's coming out of the grid. Who knows where it's actually generated.
I thought the MTA got its power from the NYS Power Authority.
Okay you might be right but doesn't that mean it still comes from the power grid?
Either way, whoever they buy their electricity from it probably is comeing from the grid and the company that's selling the power to the MTA is likely just acting as a retailer selling power from the grid to the MTA. The company selling power to the MTA probably also sells power from their generating plants into the grid as well. That way, no direct connection between any given power company's generating plants and the MTA's substations is required.
Solid state converters are basically gigantic sillicon bridge rectifiers. Same thing you can buy at radio shack for $1, only they're made for like 10,000 amps at 1kv or so. Probbably air cooled. And almost 100% efficient. A rotary converter is effectively a motor generator set, and is considerably less efficient. I think more like 60% or so, which means the remaineder is let out as heat. And they wear out too. The NYCTA doesn't use 25hz ones in regular service, but Amtrak still uses rotary frequency changers. So like 30% of the electricity Amtrak uses is effectively wasted. I'd be curious as to if the TA's electric bill has changed any with the conversion to solid state.
Oh yeah, solid state converters also are about as maintenance free as you get.
The LIRR used to use ignitrons at one time, and they're efficient too, but not as much as solid state conveters, and they have a few interesting problems/failure modes. I think all of the LRR's substations are solid state today. Anyone know for sure?
For those of you who do not check the "upcoming events" list, here is an update on the plans for the WMATA Field Trip. The status of the plans has been changed from TENTATIVE to PROBABLE.
The trip will be held on Saturday, April 21, 2001
To meet us, take Amtrak Train 79 (departing New York at 6:05 AM and Philadelphia at 7:43) to Washington, DC, arriving at 9:50 AM. Meet at that time at Gate G in Union Station (outside the Ladies' Room). We will leave Union Station at about 10:05 and take the Red Line to Fort Totten. From there, we will take the Green Line through the two newest segments of the MetroRail system (Columbia Heights and Branch Avenue) before returning to downtown for a lunch break. After lunch, we will take the Yellow Line over the Potomac into Virginia and go out either to Huntington, Franconia-Springfield, or Vienna. We will then head back through downtown, making a stop at Metro Center and then head out on the Orange Line to New Carrolton, arriving there in time for train 148, leaving New Carrolton at 5:51 PM, back to New York and Philadelphia.
By joining us on this fun and exciting day, you will see at least 39 out of the 83 stations (almost half of them). It is also a perfect chance to meet fellow SubTalkers while riding one of the premiere subway systems in America and the world!
NOTE: This is all subject to change! This is not the final plan for the day! Do not make your train reservations yet, especially for the return trip home!
For more information including what Amtrak trains to take down and back, e-mail Oren H. (WMATAGMOAGH) at oren@orenstransitpage or Brighton Bob at bob@diplomattravel.com to recieve e-mail updates. Please do so even if there is the slightest possibility you may join us! We are looking foward to seeing you!
Of all days, I was thinking that day is all clear for me, but my girlfriend is invited to two weddings, one of which she's in, then we have another one later that evening!! If I told her I was going to do this instead, I'd be dead! THe only good thing is I'm going to feeload big time on the food and alcohol!!! Have a great time on your Subtalk trip!
Congratulations!
We will miss you.
Actually, we aren't the ones getting married, but she's a bridesmaid and I get to tag along to them.
Hopefully, there will be another fantrip down here if this one is a success.
April 21 is the date of a CMSL charter sponsored by the NJ division of NMRA. Quote from their website (click on "timetable"):
"April 21, 2001 - Division Trip on Cape May Seashore Lines
Location: CMSL in Cape May County
Train ride and tour of CMSL property starting at 10AM
Stopover in Cape May for lunch, sightseeing, etc.
Tickets to be sold at Division Meets ($10 per person)"
I'm not an NMRA member, but the West Jersey Chapter NRHS, of which I am a member, is assisting the NMRA in selling tickets, and I'll probably do the CMSL trip.
BTW, part 2 of the 50th anniversary celebration of the Budd RDC delivery to the PRSL still doesn't have a date; it keeps getting bumped by other promotions and charters.
I was aware of the G.O. having all downtown trains between 14th and BB going express.
I was waiting for an UPTOWN 6 train at Canal street. One bewildered man standing on the downtown platform. I just miss a 6 train upon getting to the uptown platform at Canal.
About a few minutes later a packed Redbird 4 came. It was way too packed to get on. And on the downtown side was a 6 train, making local stops! I saw it stop on the downtown side (Lucky for that guy).
So for 10 minutes no uptown train for me. Then a 5 rolls through, blowing it's horn and skipping our stop. One roll sign said "not in service" but there were passengers on the train. Another 8 minutes goes by and finally a 6 train comes. There were track workers around the next two stations.
So I stay on the 6 till 51st street, then figure I'd take the E or F to 74th and get the 7. Well once I got down to the platform (this is around 2:15pm) the Queens bound side was packed. I waited for almost 20 minutes and there was no train. By the time the 2nd Manhattan bound F came in on the other side, I got on and took it to 42nd.
At 47-50 I saw a Queens bound F standing in the station. There were no announcements but I guess something went wrong.
Got off at 42nd got the 7 train to Flushing. It was like the train to Mexico. There was a guy with terrible B/O on there. And a Mexican Ranchera band (it seems everytime I take the 7 on weekends there's a Ranchera band playing while we go though the Steinway tubes). And while looking out the rear window I saw a hispanic male pee onto the tracks after he got off the train and we pulled away. Peeing right in front of other people at the far rear of the platform. Absolutely disgusting.
The 7 train is definately the train to Mexico. Yeah I know it's nicknamed the "International Express" but clearly a majority of riders
are spanish speaking. I think the Tijuana express may be more appropriate.
If someone asked me what train smelled the worst I'd have to say the 7. Nothing beats the smell of heating oil, B/O, and tacos.
Now if someone asked me what train has the least homeless, I'd also say the 7. Even with all it's troubles, it's still one of my favorite subway lines. And the most reliable.
That is disgusting.
I was at 51/Lex this winter going to Penn and there was all this wateron the platform on the southbound 6. I was most unamused.
Also, that elevator at 51st and Lex smells really bad! It was being worked on in December but I've used in in the past and it is BAD!
[The 7 train is definitely the train to Mexico. Yeah, I know it*s nicknamed "The International Express" but clearly a majority of riders are Spanish-speaking.]
And all Spanish-speakers are from Mexico, right? Actually, most of those roving bands are (or claim to be) from Peru or Ecuador.
The reason for the nickname "International Express" is the large number of ethnicities represented both in Queens as a whole and along the #7 in particular. (The Queens Tribune*s reading of the 1990 census lists 157 nationalities for the borough, ranging from 187,000 Chinese all the way down to 7 Estonians. National Geographic, also citing the 1990 census, lists 123 nationalities for Elmhurst alone, making 11373 the most diverse zip code in the US.)
Well I guess there's a difference between Mexican and South American music, it's hard to tell the difference though.
BTW, sorta O/T but there was a nightclub stabbing in Flushing last night. The club is near Main & Northern.
The northern and eastern sections of Flushing seem to be the worst.
It's interesting to follow pdestrian patterns in Flushing. While I was there today (briefly) I noticed most people use the exit at Main & Roosevelt, and exit walking south. When a train lets out the western side of Main street going south (especially around the LIRR overpass) is gridlock. Alot of riders pick up stuff at fruit stands on their way home.
The eastern 7 entrance on Roosevelt ave is used, but most people exit and then walk back west. Weekdays see some more people walking north and east but in general most people just don't hang out in that part of town.
In general I feel the safest in the busy areas around Main and Roosevelt, up to around the HK supermarket, and south till about Maple. The busy areas with the stores are in this area, especially those extremely busy fruit markets (where lots of mystical girls shop).
It would be nice if they had more subway entrances on Main, since this area gets busier than by the new entrance on Roosevelt. Often there can be delays getting up and down stairs, and severe bottlenecks of people on street corners. Well I don't think it's gonna happen, remember how long it took to build the Roosevelt ave entrance?
The Fox 5 story about brothels in Queens is on again. I wonder if this brothel activity is in Flushing. I sure hope not!
yup, i've heard of the tense conjestion of the main street station. maybe if they build additional exits a little up north, it should relieve some of the preassure. but what gets me is the escalators. sometimes they work fine, one goes up, the other goes down. but then there are days in which both go up or down or none of them run period. maybe this contributes to the extensive conjestion on the station.
--jonathan c.
[It would be nice if they had more entrances on Main, since that area gets busier than by the new entrance on Roosevelt.]
Some comments:
1. The tracks and station envelope are aligned under Roosevelt Avenue, not under Main Street.
2. While additional access/egress capacity is always nice, keep in mind that there isn't much spare sidewalk space in central Flushing (which is why the east end entrance had to invade the roadway), and those sidewalks probably have undergound utilities right where the stairs would need to go.
3. The east end entrance serves its primary purpose during peak hours, when most station users arrive or leave on buses. (Yes, it's less than perfect, but it works as well as one could ask given the realities of general traffic and truck deliveries.)
----
In my ideal world (hah!), BOTH entrances would have been reconstructed as follows:
Western end: fare control at street level, in the former Woolworth storefront.
Eastern end: from the existing platform-level fare control area, a new passageway (wide enough for retail space) under Lippmann Plaza and 39th Avenue to a new off-street bus terminal on the site of the existing municipal parking lot. (That whole parcel could have been totally redeveloped to incorporate said bus terminal plus a garage and an office building or department store.)
Yeah I know that there will probably be no new entrances for Main street in the near future. But some of the crowding is really bad right under the RR trestle on the west side of Main street.
Too many people, not enough real estate!
Bill: Is Maspeth still a nice area of middle class people. I was impressed the last time I was there in 1991. I didn't get there in 1999 and am curious about your area. I was especially impressed with a memorial I saw honoring the young men from your neighborhood that gave their lives for their country in World War II. There was also a bakery there that served the most delicious and freshment crumb buns I ever tasted.
Yes, I feel that Maspeth is a good middle working class area. Of course it has its conflicting opinions, but I feel I live on a decent block. Our house is surrounded by 3 Catholic Churches. We are split in half by the Long Island Expwy., have many bus routes in the area. Truck traffic in the area, especially on the local streets is a major problem, community leaders moan justifiably about poor police response time as the only way to/from the station house is the other side of always traffic congested Fresh Pond Road. The owner of the bakery (a block and a half from where I live) you speak of recently retired and while the place is still a bakery, it has Polish "cuisine". I miss those crumb and cheese buns!
By any chance, is one of those churches Transfiguration Church?
Yes, one is Transfiguration. The others: Holy Cross and St. Stanislaus Kostka. There is another St. Stans in nearby Greenpoint (Brooklyn)
Prediction. One will be forced to close its doors due to the severe clergy shortage!
I've been to Transfiguration several times, although it's been 30 years since I've seen it. It's one of five Lithuanian parishes in New York, assuming it still is. There used to be five, anyway. The oldest, Queen of Angels in Williamsburg, closed in 1981. The others are St. George's, Annunciation, and Gates of Dawn (Our Lady of Vilnius), right at the Holland Tunnel.
By any chance, is one of those churches Transfiguration Church?
>>>Our house is surrounded by 3 Catholic Churches.
Bill: Three Catholic churches? Wow! Which ones are these?
cordially,
turnstiles
Obviously, you have NO education in diversity.
Just because a person speaks Spanish, does NOT make them a Mexican. Spanish is also spoken in ALL the South American countries except Brazil (which uses Portuguese as its primary language as it was once a colony of Portugal). Many of the Caribbean islands are Spanish-speaking. And all the other countries in Central America also speak Spanish.
And guess what? People from Spain also speak Spanish!!!
So learn something about other cultures, before you lump all Spanish-speakers as "Mexicans".
(And *I* also speak Spanish....though I come from a family with Irish, German, and Scottish background in the Bronx. Does that make ME a Mexican because I speak Spanish?)
amen hermano!
Aren't there two dialects of spanish??
Aren't there two dialects of spanish??
No. There are many, many more.
Like English. Do people in Australia and England talk the same? Or in the US and Canada?
...Or in the US and Canada?
Or even in the US, the US, and other parts of the US.
...Or in the US and Canada?
Or even in the US, the US, and other parts of the US.
Exactly. You speak Yankee, I speak y'all, Fred speaks Californian (despite his New York roots), and others speak differently still.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Dear obviously ignorant, uneducated, and untravelled idiot John: There are in fact many, many dozens of various dialects of Spanish, which, probably contrary to your obviously narrowed and sterotypical view of the hispanic people, only goes to show that not all latin people are all the same, should be all lumped together, or collectively chastized for the mistakes of just one or two, such as the man you claim to have seen urinating. The question is, why is this what you've apparently done in your other post? There are literally dozens of spanish, with proper Castillian Spanish (textbook spanish) being the best, while various other major and minor variations and ideosyncractic dialects being indicative of one's particular social class and geographic orgin. I say this because I just read your other posting regarding your trip on the "International Express", (funny, I thought NYC had always been an "international" kind of city and that this was actually one of its strengths) and was quite literally DISGUSTED by the obviously RACIST and INFLAMMATORY remarks you made about hispanic people, and "Mexicans" in particular. Check out my response I will shortly post for all to see, if you dare. BTW, is this a gag posting or are you in fact really trying to impress all other SubTalker as to how ignorant and bigoted you really are?
>:-<
ThomasTheHALFMEXICAN-AMERICAN SubwayEngine!!!
You know what disgusts me? That Mexican work their asses off, have tremendous pride, are great family people, and when you get to know them are about the warmest people in the land. And they seldom receive the credit they deserve for the real down to earth people they are. If you read my other post you know that not only to I admire those people tremendously but I have considred them my good luck charm for as long as I can remember. I hope John has taken stock of what he said. It could be his diatribe was just out of frustration.
>>>You know what disgusts me? That Mexican work their asses off, have tremendous pride, are great family people, and when
you get to know them are about the warmest people in the land. And they seldom receive the credit they deserve for the real
down to earth people they are
Fred: I could not agree more. I have met a large number of Spanish-speaking people that exhibit a sense of family and culture (and religion) that few people remark upon.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Whoa, I can't believe it-one of the most commonly underappreciated and put down ehtnic minorities finally get their due. You've brought a smile to my face, paesano. Thanx a million. Peace, Thomas:)
I gotta agree. Many Hispanic people are willing to do the dirty, stinky jobs that whites turn up their noses at. And they have a lot better work ethic than a lot of my fellow caucasian people. Of course this is not unilateral, but if you took your average immigrant from Mexico and your average European-American and gave them some hard work, the Mexican would get the job done faster. I think it's great. And I think that other languages are a wonderful addition to the culture. Does it freak John out that he can't understand people? I don't know. One of the little quirks of Portland's MAX that I like it eh bilingual announcements. "Sunset Transit Center, Doors to my right. Sunset Transit Center. Puertas a mi derecha." Longtime MAX riders have the spanish announcements for things like "transfer here for bus service to NW Portland" memorized.
Many immigrants are good workers, and aren't paid enough or recognized for their work. Mexicans, chinese, and many other immigrants are what makes the 7 train a busy route even at night.
These people work hard, I see it every day in my neighborhood. They ride LI Bus, work hard as housekeepers and landscapers, and get paid little by their wealthy snob employers.
I feel for these people, alot of the women have to stand in the middle of a snow covered bus stop after a night of housekeeping. Their employers can't even give them a ride home.
I can't help it, but I just get so mad that these rich snobs in East Hills take advantage of those who are vulnerable and without a voice.
That's all I have to say on the subject, I'm just trying to set things straight.
A lot of employers don't give their employees 'a ride home' They don't have to. How do you know what their jobs are? Can you look at me and tell me what I do? Pork? Thomas? Steve?
Jackass.
-Hank
Well, Hank, I have to take a pass on this one. My employer not only gives me a ride home, I also get a ride to work.
Your employer, who is in the transportation business, gives you the benefit of using their system for free. It's not an added expense to them.
-Hank
Their employers can't even give them a ride home.
What about all those rich snobs who drive their luxury SUVs to the railroad station and take the train to their jobs in the financial district? I don't see you complaining when they have to wait in the snow for their train to arrive. And guess what? Their employers don't give them a ride home either.
Their employers can't even give them a ride home.
At least they have employers. When are you planning to get a job?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"At least they have employers. When are you planning to get a job?"
Hmm well lets see. I live in Sea Cliff where I have a bus that runs once an hour and very undependable, I'm far away from employment. It's not as easy as you may think.
Alot of people seem to be ignorant about how hard it is to get around and have a steady job without a car coming from an area like this.
Buses are so undependable you have to allow extra time. OK, let say I have a 9 to 5 job in Mineola. I have to take the N21 to Roslyn, then a
N23 to Mineola. I have to catch a 7:30am bus so I can make an 8:07am to Mineola that gets there 8:30am. Next bus is too risky.
I get out at 5pm. I just miss the 5:05pm to Manorhaven, so now I have to get the 5:25pm. I get off at Roslyn but because of traffic I have to wait for the next N21 to Glen Cove at 6:32pm. That bus is late as usual and I don't get home till 7pm. I'd spend 4 hours just taking buses each day. Now try doing this in the rain, or what about snow?
Then you gotta worry about errands like laundry and groceries. Yeah I can do them on the weekend but wait, I wouldn't get any assistance than from my agency since they're closed.
And what time do I have any fun or railfanning? And add anxiety disorder and depression to the mix.
So how do I help myself out? Either I move or find enough money to pay the car costs? And any job I get needs to pay enough so I get more than my benefits, otherwise I'd be working for less money. So I need some tech training first so I can land a better job.
Maybe all you people who don't understand would love to be in my shoes and see what it's really like. And having to grieve after the loss of
their mother and having little support from family or friends on improving your situation.
I know it's a personal rant but I have to admit comments like that really hurt, and I want them to stop. I have a mental illness alright.
My feelings are so hurt maybe I'll just avoid hanging out here. It's such a shame that this board has become full of mudslinging and personal attacks, mainly against me. I thought I finally found a group of people who I could talk to, but I guess I was wrong.
Sticks and stones may break my bones but boy do WORDS HURT!
John, you should've thought of that before you started bashing "Mexicans" and called the 7 the "Train to Tijuana"
>>> and called the 7 the "Train to Tijuana" <<<
Which as we all know is really in San Diego.
Tom
John, you seem to spend most of your time whining and complaining about how horrible life is - you even did that on the field trip a few weeks ago - but you don't seem to be trying to do anything about it. When I was your age I had a forty mile commute in heavy traffic, which meant that I left our apartment before 0700 and didn't get back home until about 1830, unless I was going to my second job, in which case I didn't get home until after 2300. I didn't much care for either job, but they put food on the table for my wife and I and our young daughter. I didn't have time for railfanning or any other form of recreation; when I wasn't working I was taking care of my family or studying. When the deck was stacked against us, like it seemed to be much of the time back then, we didn't have time to feel sorry for ourselves, and we didn't whine or complain or ask the government (or anyone else) for a handout - we simply dug in and worked harder. I suggest you do the same, and remember: when life gives you lemons, make lemonade.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
AMEN, e_mouse!
>>> I'm far away from employment. It's not as easy as you may think <<<
The solution is simple. Move to Flushing.
Seriously, you have stated that you do not have family support where you are. Why stay there? Sooner or later you will come to realize that YOU are the one who must make changes to improve your life.
Tom
Hmm well lets see. I live in Sea Cliff where I have a bus that runs once an hour and very undependable, I'm far away from employment. It's not as easy as you may think. Alot of people seem to be ignorant about how hard it is to get around and have a steady job without a car coming from an area like this.
Buses are so undependable you have to allow extra time. OK, let say I have a 9 to 5 job in Mineola. I have to take the N21 to Roslyn, then a
N23 to Mineola. I have to catch a 7:30am bus so I can make an 8:07am to Mineola that gets there 8:30am. Next bus is too risky.
I get out at 5pm. I just miss the 5:05pm to Manorhaven, so now I have to get the 5:25pm. I get off at Roslyn but because of traffic I have to wait for the next N21 to Glen Cove at 6:32pm. That bus is late as usual and I don't get home till 7pm. I'd spend 4 hours just taking buses each day. Now try doing this in the rain, or what about snow?
Then you gotta worry about errands like laundry and groceries. Yeah I can do them on the weekend but wait, I wouldn't get any assistance than from my agency since they're closed.
And what time do I have any fun or railfanning? And add anxiety disorder and depression to the mix.
You can manage. Between the LIRR and the subway, I spend close to five hours a day commuting - and about $275 per month. It's not easy, but I manage. So do a lot of people. You just have to make more efficient use of your time when faced with a schedule like that.
Any resemblance that this most recent statement bears to George W. bush's actions of putting some very "white" african-americans in high office positions to look good to blacks is purely a figment of your imagination.
DAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-AMEN there, Fred!
Two major ones (American and Spain) and then obviously many more.
Guess what? There are a lot more than two dialects of Spanish. Just like there is the "King's English" that those in the U.K. consider to be the ONLY English, then there's the Canadian version, and then the Austrailian version, and the South African version (whaddya think, they spoke South African down there???) and the English that Americans speak (and the folks back in Mother England claim that we have "abominated") -- and then there are many different dialects in different parts of the United States alone.
>>> Just like there is the "King's English" that those in the U.K. consider to be the ONLY English <<<
Not hardly! Cockney is a dialect used in London, the heart of the U.K. I remember a time when I took a wrong turn driving in Berlin in 1962 and was stopped by British sentry of the Scots Guards. After trying to understand what he was saying to me in his heavily accented English for a couple of minutes, I suggested that we both speak German so I could understand him.
Tom
Well I guess chinese isn't the only language with many different dialects. Mandarin is spoken by most in China, so that's the dialect of chinese I have chosen to learn.
I think I have heard the MTR trains in Hong Kong have announcements in English and the Cantonese dialect of Chinese. Mandarin has become more popular in HK, so I wonder if announcements will ever be in Mandarin.
John, you really excoriated John by your anti-Mexican diatribe. It might be a good time to try and mend some fences now. Just a suggestion. BTW, there are two people on this site who I am at loggerheads with right now. We all have our problems, but if I may say so, your long post did seem a little prejudicial to me.
Well I made a mistake. I shouldn't post negative biases like that.
I really respect immigrants of all kinds, Mexicans, Chinese, and many others. They work hard and earn little, and get alot of abuse.
Now with sleet pelting at my window, I think of those that actually have to work as maids. I remember going for a walk in a snowstorm and saw an older hispanic woman waiting for a bus. When I ride LI Bus, I see the poor working class, often coming back or going to gardening or
housekeeping, for wealthy people in East Hills.
Alot of us can get off of work tomorrow for the storm, but since these immigrants can't afford a day off, they have to walk in a blizzard to work for their luxury SUV toting snob who couldn't give them a ride.
I have the respect for any honest and hard working person, as well as those who are mentally or physically disabled. It's the rich SUV driving snobs in places like East Hills I can't stand!
Now please, lets get off this, I'm sorry I made an error in judgement now please, let's move on!
Awright, you've made you apparently obligatory attempts at resolution, so yeah, " LETS MOVE ON AS THOUGH NOTHING EVER HAPPENED". (Yeah, Right) -Thomas
Class Envy might not be as bad as racism, but apologizing for racist comments with some classist ones will not make you better in everybody's eyes.
And not all people who employ domestic workers are cruel bastards, they probably won't get into work on a big snow day, why do you think they expect their domestic workers to do so?
And not all people who employ domestic workers are cruel bastards, they probably won't get into work on a big snow day, why do you think they expect their domestic workers to do so?
John may have a point here. The Citibank executive from Old Westbury who can't make it into work because the LIRR shuts down will end up using a vacation or personal day - if it's really bad, his absence will be excused without his having to use any days off. But the domestic worker from Hempstead who can't make it to work because LI Bus shuts down will lose a day's pay.
It's not the same. Mandarin and Cantonese, along with other "dialects" of Chinese are completely different languages.
So much so that Chinese programs are subtitled so non-Mandarin speakers can understand.
The writing is the same because it's hieroglyphic.
>>>It's not the same. Mandarin and Cantonese, along with other "dialects" of Chinese are completely different languages.
So much so that Chinese programs are subtitled so non-Mandarin speakers can understand.
The writing is the same because it's hieroglyphic.
Pork: You're right that at least some of the dialects of Chinese
were completely separate languages originally. (Not all were: Fukien and Taiwanese, for example, are very similiar - and many Taiwanese people came from Fukien and nearby parts of China).
The written language was standardized by the monarchy for state-building purposes, several dynasties ago (I'm not familiar with which one). I cannot remember anyone else referring to the written language as hieroglyphic, although it is based on characters that each represent a syllable/sound and may have been originally derived (millenia ago) from picture writing.
-cordially,
turnstiles
>>> although it is based on characters that each represent a syllable/sound <<<
I think you have it backward. If each character represented a syllable/sound, it would be a phonetic character set, and the same written language could not support two entirely different spoken languages. The characters are ideograms, each representing an idea.
Tom
>>>I think you have it backward. If each character represented a syllable/sound, it would be a phonetic character set, and the
same written language could not support two entirely different spoken languages.
Tom: Sorry, I forgot to mention that the same character is often pronounced differently by different dialects. I have a somewhat limited knowledge of Chinese language, but this is true.
-crodially,
turnstiles
Chinese writing is completely hieroglyphic, in that each symbol refers to a word, or idea, regardless of each pronunciation in a given language. It's kinda like a picture of a cigarette with a red circle and diagonal slash ala Ghostbusters. For this reason Japanese people can read Chinese, but not vice versa. Vietnamese and Korean used the same character set, while speaking different languages, until a few centuries ago. And Taiwan speaks Mandarin Chinese, as the majority of the population are Mandarin Han, having fled there during the Civil War. There are, however, "indigenous" Taiwanese, who speak "tai wan hua", but are regarded as Australian Aborigines or Quebecois Inuits by most Taiwanese. They are further untrusted as outsiders as Taiwan was a colony of Japan (as was Korea) for over a century until the end of WWII. A further complication is that the Communist mainland Chinese greatly simplified their characters in the hope of increasing literacy, while Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore retained the traditional characters. I may be mistaken on some accounts, but perhaps Chao Hwa can correct me, as I believe he is Taiwanese.
>>>And Taiwan speaks Mandarin Chinese, as the majority of the population are Mandarin Han, having fled there during the Civil War. There are, however, "indigenous" Taiwanese, who speak "tai wan
hua", but are regarded as Australian Aborigines or Quebecois Inuits by most Taiwanese.
phillyguy: First off, thanks for your insightful post. My understanding, including from two visits (one extended) to Taiwan years ago, was that the majority of people in Taiwan (indigenous Taiwanese are not a majority on the island) speak both Taiwanese and Mandarin. Of course, I am very open to further input from all on this one.
Yes, Taiwan was most definitely occupied by the Japanese from some time, even before WWII. At least one relative living in Taiwan when it was occupied was actually sent to school as a girl in Japan (these were fairly wealthy relatives) and educated (at least in part) in Japan.
I found it most interesting when you noted that Japanese can read Chinese but not vice versa. Needless to say, I have never heard of this before. Could you tell us a bit more about this, if you'd like. Thanks.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Japanese uses 3 writing systems: Kana (which are Chinese characters, used for nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc.), Hiragana, a syllabary (which are used for the very few truly Japanese words, as well as particles [i.e. -ing, -ed, -ly, will -, although much more extensive than these examples, such as indicating subject, direct object, indirect object, etc.]), and Katakana (used for the quite extensive foreign loan-words, such as Aisu-kuurimu [ice cream], or your own name). Thus a Japanese sentence may use all three, but a Chinese person would only be able to read the Kana (thus making the sentence unintelligible). I went to Chinatown here in Philly with a Japanese friend of mine, and he could tell me exactly what all the signs meant (e.g. Small Mountain, Lucky Family) but not know how to pronounce them. A Chinese person could not do this, because of the several alphabets used by the Japanese.
I forgot to mention: Kana (Chinese characters) are hieroglyphic: each character refers to an idea. Hiragana and Katakana are syllabaries, and each refers to a syllable. They are very similar, but Hiraga is more cursive, while Katakana is more angular. They both have a finite number of characters depicting the sounds: a, e, i, o, u, ka, ke, ki, ko, ku, and so on throughout the consonant-vowel combos. There are exceptions of course, but you can see from this that both hiragana and katakana each have about 100 symbols. It is this which Chinese speakers cannot read.
I think you mean "Kanji" which are Chinese characters used in Japanese. "Kana" is a generic term referring to the two syllabic alphabets, Hiragana or Hirakana and Katakana. Hiragana is used to write native Japanese words and to inflect verbs etc. Katakana is used to write foreign words and phrases, or to provide emphasis for native Japanese words. Kanji is not hieroglyphic, but are ideograms.
That is, their meaning is constant, expressing an idea. The "readings", or pronounciation of Kanji can change depending on thier usage, but they always express the SAME idea. Most Kanji are similar to the original Chinese characters, and would be recognized by a person who reads Chinese, regardless of dialect, although they would not necessarily be able to pronounce the correct Japanese reading of the Kanji. There are some Japanese only Kanji, that are not known in Chinese, and of course, there are many Chinese characters not used in Japanese.
Oh, I meant Kanji for Kana, which refers to the other two collectively.
>>> For this reason Japanese people can read Chinese, but not vice versa. <<<
Why can the Japanese read the Chinese characters, but the Chinese can not read the Japanese characters? When I was last in Japan (1970), I noticed that there was both a traditional ideograph written language and a phonetic written language. The signs, particularly in Tokyo were largely phonetic, but in the countryside seemed to be ideographs? Although Chinese would not be able to read the phonetics, what prevents them from understanding the ideographs?
Tom
Japan dropped Traditional Chinese characters after WWII.
It has its own simplified Chinese characters set which is also quite
different from the one used in Mainland China.
Which also means that most Japanese born after WWII
don't read Traditional chinese and even fewer people
can read Simplified Chinese used in Mainland.
Characters that originally had simpler design like "one" or center"
remained the same in all currently used character sets.
They didn't need to be simplified. So Chinese people shouldn't
have trouble reading them. But then again words do not necessarily
means the same things, even if they are written exactly the same.
A good example is the two-character word written using the
character "hand" and "paper". In Japanese, it means "letter"
(that you write, send and receive), in Mandarin (and maybe other dialects),
it means "toilet paper"!!
I am simplifying a long story that could make a whole chapter,
but I hope you get the idea.:-)
Well they are referred to as dialects, but unintellegible from one another. Cantonese sounds totally different from Mandarin, and has many more tones (Mandarin is a fairly new language compared to Cantonese).
Subtitles do help bridge the gap between Mandarin and Cantonese speakers, but "simplified" written chinese is used in the Mainland to further complicate matters.
Most chinese characters I see are Traditional though, as most Chinese music CD's and magazines come from HK or Taiwan where the traditional set is used.
Of course therea re other "dialects" of Chinese, such fujianese, which is spoken in Fujian province as well many parts of Taiwan.
I'm curious as to what dialects subway announcements are in China. I assume it is in Mandarin. So hopefully Mandarin is widely understood in mainland China so when I learn, I'll be able to communicate properly when I visit someday.
As a historian, I never intended to learn a spoken Chinese language, as they vary so much over both time and space. One of its greatest advantages is its uniformity (in the written form). So far I've learned about 200 characters (by meaning alone; I couldn't tell you how to pronounce them), but it seems much easier than I originally thought. (although, I'm pretty good at languages, and it's easy to seem like you know something when you needn't actually speak to anyone.) 10 more years and I'll be reading Mao's Little Red Book. I can't wait to get to his feelings on mass transit, although I'm sure they're positive.
Mandarin is the dialect used in subways in Beijing IIRC when I was in China in July 1990 for only a month. Mandarin is also used in train announcements when I rode one from Shanghai to Tianjin and Beijing. Being the government the way it is and was, the announcements on the trains included the (recorded) Chinese national anthem and CCP propaganda. Don't remember the same thing with the subways though. It's also been almost 11 years so my memory is very faint. I was still a kid then and didn't paid too much attention to trains and subways.
I gather not much english is used on Chinese subway trains, so visiters should have a basic knowledge of Mandarin chinese.
If they're playing the National Anthem and Communist Party propaganda on the speakers, perhaps the MTA should have shipped them the R-16s when they got rid of them from the Eastern Division. The speakers on those babies worked worse than the rest of the car did, so the riders in Beijing would never have to be bothered with those annoying announcements :-)
John;
You and other Sub Talkers might find this site interesting regarding Chinese language.
http://zhongwen.com/
Tom
Thanks!
Tom: Thanks. I'll be browsing through that site.
-cordially,
turnstiles
and then there are many different dialects in different parts of the United States alone.
Not even as many as in England!
Many of the Caribbean islands are Spanish-speaking. And all the other countries in Central America also speak Spanish.
I only know of Puerto Rico, Cuba and the Dominican Republic. In fact, when I was in the ninth grade, my friend (who went to elementary school with me) had called me with help for his Spanish homework in finding three countries in the Carribean and Central and South America (three each) that spoke Spanish. In his class, one example given was Puerto Rico. I even took out an atlas to find a third country that spoke Spanish that WASN'T Puerto Rico.
Eventually, I told him to put US in parentheses next to Puerto Rico.
Dear John: BASTA, Bastard! I thought SubTalk unspoken etiquette was to avoid religion, race, and politics! It is obvious that you need to be schooled in this,as well as re-educated in certain misconceptions you hold so allow me the "honor". . .
Your posting was by far the most racist and inflammatory one I've ever seen on this bulletin board and there really is no place on it. So speaking spanish makes one a "Mexican"? Well obviously some are, including the SubTalker whose response you are reading right now. That's right, even the ethnic group you've so very callously denigrated here is represented here at SubTalk, where as I understand it all ethnic and racial groups are represented here and considered as equals in subway and mass-transit camradderie and fellowship. Although I'm equally glad to celebrate upcoming St.Patrick's Day as my father's side is evenly Irish and English, I am especially proud of my Mother's third generation Mexican-American heritage. Yes, that's right, third generation- and you though we all SWAM the RIO GRANDE just barely yesterday and only illegally entered this country!
My Mother's ancestral family lived in Texas when it still BELONGED TO MEXICO, as did what is now called Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada. (Did you think nearly half of all US cities and State names are Spanish Names merely by coincidence?)After it parts were sold by General Santa Anna to the US while others basically stolen by the US, they were already long settled and accepted the US unconditional offer to stay. So you see, contrary to popular belief, we didn't all cross the boder, for many of us, the border simply crossed us as it receded. Three generations later, my Mom's family wisely decided that they weren't really ever going to get anywhere working in some already rich white man's farm, ranch, or factory and helping him to get even richer, and decided to move from Texas to New York in search of better work and education, as well as the chance to own a house and prosper amongst our own people. Isn't this the reason why anyone immigrates to America and then NY in particular?!
The worst part of being what I am is probably sitting next to someone like you on a train and having him thinking I just barely got here, refuse to learn and don't speak english, am recieveing welfare or am employed through affirmative action, staunchly roman-catholic, etc., when in fact I am a native born US Army veteran, Hell's Kitchen produced, fluently monolingual, 2nd generation railroader who roots for the Mets, Knicks, and Yanks, and thinks the NYC mass transit system and the city itself are the greatest in the entire world and ever so close to my heart.
Ignorant racist a**holes like you are the reason had such a hard time growing up in NYC and Jersey City, (and you probably though we all moved immediately to LA and Chicago the second our green cards were finalized)and feel such a deep moral responsibility to educate people like you that not ALL of us Hispanics are "Mexican" and those of us WHO ARE, whether recently arrived or here for the past hundred years, obviously have just as much right to be here as any other immigrant ethnic group does!!!
So sarapes (pronounced za-ra-pay) Mexican blankets, the smell of tacos, and (what you've probably mistakenly believed to be) Ranchero bands upset you? Then simply don't ride the Subway, MFer!! A fellow like you in Germany in the late 1930s like you believed also alot in eliminating ethnic undesireables and immigrants and took his little "message" of wholesale hatred and racial purity nearly all the way, and by the time could finally be put in his place, as indeed I am doing to you now and right here, his come-uppance, nearly 6 million ethnics, handicapped and infirm, religious minorities, etc., were dead.
I just find it very impractical and unreasonable for you to expect only certain ethic groups that you of course judge to be desireable should be live in NYC and ride NYCT MTA, given the cities history as a great melting pot. Exactly what Native American Indian tribe are you full-bloodedly descended from, anyway? I was just wondering because you sure do seem to dislike the idea of anyone except you and your own kind to ride the #7 or live in NYC, and as far as I'm concerned, these are the ONLY people who truly have the right to say: "This is MY land, why don't you go back to where you came from?"
You had better pray I never find out who you are or if you work for NYCTA. The MTA simply doesn't need narrow-minded bigoted a**holes like you, especially when they'll invariably come into contact with racial groups they openly dislike. I have "suit"ed family who work at JAY and I will quite simply see you either drummed out or made to be so misearable you'll quit on your own. Additionally, let me say I'm actually not surprised you don't list your e-mail address or anything else indentifiable about yourself. This is because all of you bigots and racists are, when all outer layers are stripped away as with an artichoke, merely SCARED IGNORANT COWARDS deep down in their cores.
Do me, yourself, and this entire board a huge favor and disassociate yourself immediately and take your stereotyping and racist hate-mongering elsewhere, like perhaps a good KKK bulletin board. And get a doctor soon for that athlete's mouth you are undoubtedly by now afflicted with, and get to steppin'. CLASS OVER. >:-(
Thomas the "Mexican-American" Subway Engine (Orale, RAZA!!!!)
Thomas, while a agree with the general direction of your posting, it surely did not make you look like a shining star. I think you could have conveyed your appropriately strong message without the repeated profanity. Only weak arguments need profanity to make them seem stronger. I don't think that John works for the MTA but as for your 'suited' relatives at jay making anyone so miserable that they would quit, are you sure they (your relatives) would appreciate being used to threaten others? Are you next going to tell John that your daddy is a policeman? That's a childish ploy, Thomas. I'm quite sure that John realizes that he's seriously erred and will attempt to set things right, without your threats and without your profanity.
I really don't think what I said was racist at all. It seems everytime I make an honest observation I get flamed for it. So the number 7 train has alot of hispanic riders. Every train has it's own culture and flavor, that's what makes NYC the wonderful place that it is.
You can experience a world of culture just by riding the subway.
Most people from Mexico, central America, and South America do speak spanish but I guess there are regional differences. There are several spanish langauge radio stations in NYC because there is a large spanish speaking audience.
That was not what you communicated in your first post. Its tone was negative and the context of your language was derogatory.
I had a feeling it was abit derogatory after thinking about it, but that was clearly not my intention.
From now on to avoid these mis-understandings I will no longer post any subjects about cultures that ride the subway. Since subways carry such a diverse group of people it is wrong to generalize, and I won't do it again.
You are smoking some really good mary-jane if you think a simple and insincere band-aid like this one is enough to get you off the hook on this. BTW-if you ever have to question yourself whether or not something is derogotory or not, chances are it probably is and doesn't deserve to be posted, you ignorant miscreant. to avoid mistunderstandings like this, MFer, simply stop posting anything at all!
>:-( -ThomasTheSubwayEngine
Thomas: As my hero Abraham Lincoln said to General Grant about the South at the end of the American Civil War, "let them down easy, let them down easy." John made a mistake and I think he's sorry. Actions speak louder than words, and maybe you should keep on the hunt for what he says in the future. He may just have gotten carried away. Give it a little time.
Allright, allright, allright! It takes a big man to admit being wrong, and to try to correct himself. Peace, and look whut we done started, everone at Subtalk hating and flaming on eachother!!! Are you proud of this? Becasue I sure as hell am not, and feel partially responsible for this. Any stated plans for retribution, ad hominem barbs, cusswords, etc., were said purely in the heat of the moment and are obviously not intended. Boys and Girls, don't try this at home!!!! Peace and Love Thomas:/
HELLO!!!! EARTH to TRAIN DUDE!!!!! The guy's heritage was basically trashed and streotyped and you're jumping all over his case!? Give me a damn break! How would you like it if someone trashed your heritage, talked about your family!? I think you'd get a little pissed off too! God, people!
So in other words, if it wasn't his herritage, it would be allright? If it's not your herritage, it isn't racism? Racism is racism whether it's my race, your race or anyone elses race. When we see it we should all be offended. Besides, I didn't say thomas was wrong to be upset. I said he was wrong to answer with profanity. I also said that the way he suggested he'd get retribution was inappropriate and childish. DID YOU MISS THAT? You obviously are not the brightest bulb in the box.
BTW: My final comment is not racism unless you are a Sylvania
What about GE, Westinghouse, and the Pathmark generic brand, huh?
Peace and God Bless, Thomas:)
What you just posted was the oldest trick in the book on how to bypass the point. My point was that why are you jumping all over him when he has the right to be upset after his heritage was trashed! YOU came up with the ass backwards idea that I thought it was only racism if it was his heritage! While you're at it, learn how to spell heritage before you call anyone a dim bulb you illiterate asshole! And NO I did not miss you being the "Morality Police" and giving him a scolding! THAT'S THE REASON I POSTED IN THE FIRST PLACE YOU DULL RUSTY KINFE!!!!!! Stop trying to tuck tail and be evasive you idiot and respond to the damn argument without coming up with some lame-ass sarcasm you MF!
>>>BTW: My final comment is not racism unless you are a Sylvania<<<
BTW: My final comment is learn some damn grammar!
Jason, buddy, I don't think I was jumping on Thomas and I don't think Thomas thought I was jumping on him. The thrust of my post (mis-spellings and all) was that he had a right to be angry but he expressed it in an inappropriate way. He accepted my comment - I assume, in the spirit that it was presented.
Now as for you, I couldn't care what your point is or was. Nor do I care that you think that I'm an illiterate asshole. I also won't respond in kind to your other rantings. Instead, keep this in mind: I get paid a lot of money to do a job that you go to bed each night, spanking your monkey, wishing you could do for free. Life is great, Jason.
>>>Instead, keep this in mind: I get paid a lot of money to do a job that you go to bed each night, spanking your monkey, wishing you could do for free<<
You have sex with 15 yr. old girls? You my friend are sick and I want nothing to do with you.
OK guys, time to put an end to this. Dude is one of my closest friends on this site, and you and I have butted heads before. But I know you are an enthusiatic advocate for what you believe, and I have come to admire you for that, despite our barbs in the past. Let's see if we can put this to rest and not get ourselves in a stew that might lead to permanent hard feelings. I know. I have two guys on this site that are not on pleasant speaking terms with me, and that is no victory for any of us.
I for one could not agree more if my life depended on it. Please see my other umpteen postings on this issue where I basically paraphrase this. Gotta go now, as my wife has just announced she has a REAL $125 dollar Cuban (no rcial reference intended) cigar. Peace to All and please STOP THE HATING AND FLAMING!!!! Sincerely, Thomas :)
Remember when we used to talk about trains and leave out anything that would sully this board by going way off topic?
ALSO....................
Remember when Dave Pirmann shut down BusTalk a while back because the BusTalkers were getting out of hand by slinging cyber mud at each other? BusTalk seems well behaved by comparison.
BALL'S IN YOUR COURT FELLAS'S !
Bill "Newkirk"
Please, pretty please, both Jason, RTS 2150, and anyone else involved, there has been way too many flaming and ad-hominem attacks as of late that really need to end. Please, I thank you all for you genuine concern and opinions, but must ask that you all PLAY NICE!!! As I've already stated in another similar post, if I'd known that my response to Johns posting would've caused this much dissention and debate, I'd of just suffered in silence. I honestly love, respect, and admire you all, even those of you I may consistently disagree with, as I know the man on the cross did, too. (no disrespect to any other religions, big proactive apologies to Dave for touching upon religion but this was very necessary). But if I am to continue to truly value and consider your opinions, then we all really need to get away from all this hating! I've already made my peace with my tomentor, and advise you all to do the same ASAP!!
BTW: The concept and availability of all of us even having a fine forum such as SubTalk is I feel far, far BIGGER than merely any one SubTalker's hurt feelings, so lets preserve what we have!
Peace and Inclusion to all, Thomas :)
RTS: I think Train Dude was just trying to defuse a very inflammed situation, and I don't think you should cable him from outer space, or he saying you're not the brightest bulb in the box. This was obviously a racial slander that came from John whether he realized it or not. What makes this bad is that it is not something like politics, trains, bridges, or sports teams where can argue, get hot and then cool off. Racial matters can fester a long time and cause irreparable harm to relationshiops. It is time for all this to simmer down, so I will act as peacemaker and implore all of you to let it all down easy, let it all down easy.
Fred the mediator.....hmmmm. Now that's different.....;-)
Just don't diss the Sea Beach line and you'll be OK
There you go Mr. MP. That's exactly right. And I would hope that is how you feel, too. I'm outnumbered on this site by the Brighton and West End boys and I need all the backup I can get. Thanks for the plug. I can use it.
Actually, Fred, I'm a (blasphemy of all blasphemies) an IRT fan!! But when I wrote that, I was in a touchy-feely-Alan Alda mood, and I know how sensitive you are about the Sea Beach, so I thought I'd make a pre-emptive strike at any misguided soul who dared to disparage the mighty Sea Beach line.
:)
Elliot
You're still an ok guy in my book, and I'll overlook your loyalty to the IRT. Actually I like the #7 line. I find it an exciting ride, especially when you see so many different types of people on board. I find that stimulating, and, besides, that's the train that goes to Shea Stadium and it is always a treat when I can get to see the Mets in person.
Here's hoping somebody spots John Rocker so we can chain him to the storm door and take him for a ride on the seven. ESPECIALLY on a day like today. :)
It wouldn't do a bit of good Selkirk my man. He's do dumb to see the forest from the trees. It would be a complete waste of time.
Yeah, you're right ... if we were to chain him to the storm door of a #7 train, I'm afraid he'd LIKE it. :)
Can you also overlook that I'm a Yankee fan?
If you put a blindfold on me, perhaps. I have been a Yankee hater since 1947 when I first became a seven year old Brooklyn Dodger fanatic.
You were seeing my real side-----my warm and compassionate side, and, if you will believe it, my authentic side.
Right you are, Fred, simply look at the ethnic cleansing in the former Yogoslavia- that's ethnic tension that has been simmering for more than 400 years! I, too, implore any and all involved to "let it down easy", but I quite seriously doubt anyone and then especially myself will ever be able to dissacociate John from his comments, EVER.
Peace, Thomas ;-)
Dear Train Dude, no, it probably didn't make me look like a shining star, but then again I'm not running for political office or am a major sports celebrity role-model, either. The purose of that posting, I think, was to convey extremely impassioned and angry sentiment, and I think I've done that very well, although you are once
again correct this time about the profanity issue, though. Geez, I thought ANYONE had enough common sense to staw away from the race, religion, or politics issue; and clearly some don't. I really, really hope and pray I don't ever personally meet this guy.If somehow I do, believe me when I say he will rue that day for all time.
BTW:Friends and family at Jay, having already been apprised and even seen the offending post themselves, havnt indicated any kind of reluctance whatsover to go forward. . . Peace and God Bless, Thomas:)
"BTW:Friends and family at Jay, having already been apprised and even seen the offending post themselves, havnt indicated any kind of reluctance whatsover to go forward. ."
As I said previously, I don't condone racism. I also don't think John is an employee. TA rule #10 prohibits conduct by employees (on or off duty)
I also don't think John is an employee.
No, he's not... he doesn't have a job at all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"BTW:Friends and family at Jay, having already been apprised and even seen the offending post themselves, havnt indicated any kind of reluctance whatsover to go forward. ."
As I said previously, I don't condone racism in any form. I also don't think John is a TA employee. TA rule #10 prohibits conduct by employees (on or off duty) that would lead to criticism of the TA. Racist activities would seem to be covered under that rule. However, John's comments were (racist) observations but not directed at any particular person. I'm by no means an expert but as unfortunate as those remarks were, I believe that they would, therefore, fall into the catagory of free speech and not subject to TA scrutiny. Besides, Thomas, I learned a long time ago not to use gunpowder when flee powder will do.
My response was posted to the wrong place Here it is.
Tom
Please see my other umpteen postings and responses to this matter which has already gotten way out of hand. Again, your points are well taken, "Dude", but PLEEEEZE apologize to RTS2150 for some pretty vengeful rebuttals that even make MY response pale in comparison!!
Peace and Good Will to All, Thomas :)
Amen. I totally agree. I'm an African-American but I see the racist undertones come shining through from that post. There are always differences made and I'm surprised this one went on so long. Had he said they should've called that train the African Express, and it smelled like stinky babies, B/O, hair grease, chitlins, and had rap crap playing all the time he would've been flamed out of here. I can't stand racist or people who use streotypes like that. Just like when my friends at school said George Bush is a racist becuase he let Gary Grahm die. HELLO! The guy was a convicted murderer! Well just like that ignorance, I can't stand this either. You stated your point greatly.
Well maybe calling the 7 train "The International Express" has racist undertones as well, since it clearly refers to immigrants.
I made the mistake of posting a subject about cultural observations while riding the 7 train, and I will never do that again. I am not a racist, I appreciate the culture of NYC and enjoy it. NYC would be a boring city without the many different immigrants that come. In fact, NYC wouldn't exist as it is today without immigrants from Asia, Central and South America, Africa, as well as many other places.
Now please, lets get back to the most important part of the thread, which are SUBWAY PROBLEMS.
There was no Queens bound E or F for at least 20 minutes around 2pm yesterday, does anybody know what happened?
Yes, the T/Os, C/Rs, and riders alike all heard you were waiting at that station and purposefully had the tower switch track to bypass it altogether. >:-( -Thomas
I think you're getting too upset over John's posting. He's posted a lot on Subtalk over the past year or so, and I wouldn't characterize his opinions as racist or xenophobic - though admittedly there's a fine line being drawn. He seems to be rather timid when it comes to urban society. Witness all his Sodom-and-Gomorrah postings about Flushing and its "gangs of thugs." But that doesn't translate into a hatred of foreigners and foreign culture; as he's pointed out ad nauseum, he's fascinated with Chinatown and attracted to Chinese women. If I had to guess, I'd say that John has no problem with a different culture if he's familiar with it (Chinatown), but reacts timidly if it's something new to him (the Mexicans or other Hispanics on the 7).
As grand as that proposal may be, that won't get him anywhere in life. He has to remember where he lives and that if he's to go past his front door there're a few thing he's going to have to get used to and if he can't get used to them, he needs to move to an ignorant all white suburb where foolish stereotypes are readily accepted as scripture.
Note to Idiots: Don't try to like turn this post around so I can appear racist and harsh because anyone with half a brain knows what I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to say all white suburbs are idiots and have ignorant racist views. But we do know there are those that do. Now, you may go back to your lives of planning another clever (note the sarcasm) flame about masturbation or other non-sense directed towards me.
>>> he needs to move to an ignorant all white suburb where foolish stereotypes are readily accepted as scripture <<<
And where did you think he lives now?
Tom
Thanks a million not just for the posting, but also for some months ago clearing up a misunderstanding between Pork and myself regarding the proleteriat. A few days later, Dave P. announced that Porky would no longer be contributing here at SubTalk, and I was afraid my hot-tempered response to him had had something to do with it. I apologized to him and posted that I was hoping he'd decide to stay, and he did. Believe it or not, greater than my dislike of racial hatred or careless ignorance is my love of inclusion for all(vs. exclusion) and freedom of speech. The person who made that initial posting I think has by all appearances learned his lesson and won't be a recuriing problem anymore. Again, kudos to RTS2150, Train-Dude, and yourself for taking up for me.
:) Peace and God Bless, Thomas.
You amplified your remark to make it very clear. Anyone who cannot understand it is a moron. It was well said, and, as you intimated before, there are racist comments coming from all races now, and we have to be on guard for them and give whoever comes out with them the you know what. It seems so simple to me to judge people one at a time and not in groups. Sometimes I wonder why some people cannot do that.
I enjoyed reading your post, and almost compltely agree save for minor exceptions. Youv'e responded to some of my other posts in the past in fine style and content, and based upon your vouching for John as being merely xenophobic and misguided, I am prepared to leave it at that. I try and to refrain from Ad Hominem responses even when I am the one initially being flamed, but just couldn't and wouldn't in a million years let this one go. Big apologies to any and all who feel I may have gone a tad bit overboard. I guess the moral of this whole dabacle of a story is essentially THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK. (!)
Peace, Love, Tolerance, and Acceptance to all, Thomas:)
OK!!!!!! So the worst is over now and we can get back to our usual arguments about which train is the best, and why everything still stinks on the Manny B. Of course, we all know the Sea Beach is No 1 of the trains, and the Mets are going all the way this year.
If the Sea Beach is number 1, why was it given the number 4?
How many times do I have to tell you Dullton Beach Bob. Since the Sea Beach was so stupendous, a silly number one would never do. But to keep the Brighton from getting completely embarrassed and humiliated Sea Beach settled for #4, just to "stay in the neighborhood". so to speak. But four is four times more than one, so the message was clear. Got it now?
By your reasoning, the 14th Street-Canarsie Line (modern day L) was the greatest train of all, sixteen times better than the Brighton and four times better than the Sea Beach.
Touche!!!
Leave it to Bob and Fred to steer the ship back to a nice, friendly Brighton vs Sea Beach debate.
Unfortunately, the folks who developed the BMT number code are deceased by now. Maybe they were all Brighton fans.:-) Sorry, Fred.
I just had to laugh at this remark and Porks 16 times better. thought the L(16) was 16 times slower
I just had to laugh at this remark and Porks 16 times better. thought the L(16) was 16 times slower
I'm not sure how that (slowness) argument works with the Canarsie line, but it definitely works when comparing the Sea Beach and Brighton line.
Stay out of this argument you young whippersnapper. This is between Bob and me. The Sea Beach could have taken that number but it didn't want to humiliate the Brighton.
No the reason why the Sea Beach got 4, was that there was always 2 Brightons, and only 1 Slow Bunch edven in the olden days./ Beside OLD Fred, you admitted that the Brighton was your second favorite Line. Mine was the IRT Flushing line
>>>Mine was the IRT Flushing line
Bob: Good choice!:) I think it's a really fascinating elevated with frequent service, high speeds on the express, many different kinds of people, and many destinations along the route.
-cordially,
turnstiles
With the understanding that I am not an impartial observer in this continuing controversy, I'd like to propose a solution. With the cooperation of Vince McMahon and the WWF, I'm proposing a good old fashion Brooklyn "Hot Fudge Sunday" Wrestling Match between Brighton Beach Bob and Seabeach Fred.
Now, although Fred and I share a certain comradery, I'd really have to be Bob's manager (considering my love of the Brighton line). I'm sure Doug will gradly stand up for Fred. I think heypaul could step in as the referee (he looks great in stripes) and porky can be the timekeeper. I propose that all proceeds go to two worthy causes.
1) Send John for sensativity training.
2) Send our friens, Saalam a storm door.
Don King eat your heart out!!!!!!!!!
1) Send John for sensativity training.
2) Send our friens, Saalam a storm door.
3) New clock fund.
[I'm sure Doug will gradly stand up for Fred.]
Upon reading this I gagged on my own three-hour old White Castle burgers!
Yeah, I'd stand up for Fred -- and show him the door!
NO WAY, Steve, I'm a die-hard, born-in-the-wool Brighton Beach Bum. The Brighton is much too scenic to be second to the Sea Breech Line.
I have Bill "Newkirk" as backup on this one.
BMTman
Doug, we certainly don't need you to be siding with the enemy:)
Yeah, I too prefer the D to the N. At least there's hope for getting down to Stillwell at a certain time.....
-Stef
Yeah, and with the Brighton Line service doesn't get held up because some kid decided to 'subway surf' and literally 'lose his head' in the process making for serious train delays.
BMTman
Hey Stef: I didn't know you south Bronxites took much interest in our BMT battles. The IRT is more in your balliwick so why not stay there? On second thought, why not. Get involved. There's always room for one more, and besides, this is real fun, isn't it. I wouldn't to deprive anyone from having a little fun.
How about a race from Stillwell to 34 st thru seabeach & brighton to see who gets there 1st.
Why, the slants on the Q, of course.:-)
Of course the Brighton. I times them last year. The Slow Beach 55 minutes, The D 47 minutes,and the slow beach was supposed to be Exp on 4th Ave.
From 34th st, which will get there (Coney) first?
D, B, F or N?
B-D-N-F In that Order, Remember the D is a Local South Of West 4th, The B is Express in Bklyn
You bet. Put the Sea Beach on the express tracks and we'd beat the Brighton all to hell.
NEVER HAPPENED NEVER WILL. Take a Brighton Exp to Kings Hwy or Sheapshead by, cross the platform to a waitin Local, and still will beat you 2 Brightons to 1 Slop Bunch. By the way are we still on for the 20th?
We are definately still on on the 20th. Looking forward to it. Buzz me as soon as you can and we'll get together to eat, laugh, and argue like hell.
I hope this rendezvous is taped for posterity.:-)
Fred, I like a good fight. And I shall go where I please. Why don't I just stay in the IRT? And miss out on the fun? Oh noooooooo.
Chao.
You noticed I changed my tune and said why not? You're right. This Brighton-Sea Beach battle is real fun. BTW, Brighton Beach Bob and I are having dinner together March 20th when he's in California, so the rivalry is friendly but fierce. Does the IRT have any rivalries like the BMT buddies do? If not, then join in on the fun. Don't worry this argument will continue on indefinately. But this is not a rivalry that will end up with flamage. This is good fun and we want all of the guys to enjoy it. So enjoy.
Yeh about the Lex Lines vs the 7th Ave lines and the 7 as the umpire. I ll take the Lex since it goes to Yankee Stadium home of THE WORLD CHAMPION 3 in a row, 4 of 5 YANKEES
Enjoy is now because the time is coming when even George's money is not going to keep your boys from going the way of the 65-75, and 82-95 Yankees, the Yankees I remember most fondly. I even rooted for the Dodgers over your boys when the LA Bums swept them three in a row at Dodger Stadium in the '81 World Series. Was there for all three games. If left a bad taste in my mouth but was worth it so long as it meant the Yankees lost.
You noticed I changed my tune and said why not? You're right. This Brighton-Sea Beach battle is real fun. BTW, Brighton Beach Bob and I are having dinner together March 20th when he's in California, so the rivalry is friendly but fierce. Does the IRT have any rivalries like the BMT buddies do? If not, then join in on the fun. Don't worry this argument will continue on indefinately. But this is not a rivalry that will end up with flamage. This is good fun and we want all of the guys to enjoy it. So enjoy.
I just posted a "rivalry" of sorts which crosses divisions in Queens, "Flushing IRT vs. Queens Blvd. IND". Gotta go with what he have. Check it out.
:-) Andrew
Put me down for the IRT in this one. The #7 train goes to magnificent Shea Stadium, home of the magnificent Mets. The IND train doesn't seem to go nowhere. In fact, it never sees the light of day.
Both are great. But, the Brighton has an express, elevated, open cut, underground, everything. As far as I'm concerned, the Brighton is the best subway line in NY. LONG LIVE THE Q TRAIN! And, the Seabeach recently had its Brooklyn-bound express track removed. Any TA employee that removes any piece of BMT track should get the electric chair. Why don't they tear up some of those digusting, polluting highways? Also, lets melt down some of those buses and put trolley tracks back in the streets. Cudos to NJ for building new trolley lines!
Q train sucks. It seems to keep evading that doom known as Montague St. tunnel by picking up odd jobs as the Slaves of the IND D and B.
And, that express track should remain (unless they wanna put platforms at key stops and make it a peak direction express)
A great explanation of why the Brighton is winning the Southern Division debate.
Well Tony the Tiger, I take back what I said previously. You're ok in my book. At least you are a big BMT man. That was the best system and I don't know why in hell the MTA or the TA or whoever put the IND with our BMT. What a crappy system the molelike IND was, never seeing the light of day except for two stops. Just dullsville.
Hey! (grin) At least those of us on the IND didn't get WET waiting for our trains. And when there was a blizzard, our trains still ran. :)
Oh, I wouldn't call the CPW express dash dull. Certainly not in the good old days. However, if you take a D train nowadays, No Doz would be highly recommended.
Right On, Tony! You're THE MAN!
BMTman
>I didn't know you south Bronxites took much interest in our BMT battles. The IRT is more in your balliwick so why not stay there?
Yeah, he should pitch the Dyre Av line, which is like the Brighton or sea Beach line of the Bronx.
(In the far off down the line 2nd Av plans, Brighton and/or Sea Beach trains might run on the Dyre line!)
(In the far off down the line 2nd Av plans, Brighton and/or Sea Beach trains might run on the Dyre line!)
What are you talking about?!?! Evidently you're living in the past.
What past? If this is a possible plan for the FUTURE?
Realistically. Is this going to happen? No. Hell, even a second av. line in Manhttan that will be completed just between uptown Manhattan and 63rd st. won't be done until what 2020? And what would be the purpose of re-working that whole area? Totally pointless. Hooking all that up. I don't think that in our lives we'll see that connection made. (NOTE: I was mistaken when I mentioned that whole past thing, Sorry)
BTW: Culver is better than Dyre too.
As far as connecting the Dyre Avenue to the Second Avenue Subway, that ain't happening unless the TA cancels construction of the bus garage they're building on the site of the old Colosseum Depot and in the path of the old Westchester route. Don't expect that to happen.
What about an extension straight to downtown MOUNT VERNON?
What about Yonkers service? Extend the A or 1/9? Or reclaim the 1/9 as an IND line and extend that to Yonkers?
They should run the IRT broadway line (1/9) to Getty Square in Yonkers. There was actually a plan to extend the IRT White Plains Poad line (2/5) to downtown Mt. Vernon at one time. If you look carefully at the 241st Street station on the IRT White Plains road line you can see that they had set it up with the intention of extending it to Mt. Vernon
BMTJeff
They should run the IRT broadway line (1/9) to Getty Square in Yonkers. There was actually a plan to extend the IRT White Plains Road line (2/5) to downtown Mt. Vernon at one time. If you look carefully at the 241st Street station on the IRT White Plains Road line you can see that they had set it up with the intention of extending it to Mt. Vernon
BMTJeff
The only way the IRT's Dyre Avenue line could really be like the Brighton or the Sea Beach lines in Brooklyn, is for it to have been a longer route. With only five stops and the 5 train often being reduced to shuttle service on the weekends, the Dyre Avenue can not really be in the same league with the Sea Beach or the Brighton. It's definitely better than the elevated IRT lines in the Bronx (2, 4, 6, 1) and Brooklyn (3), but it's just not in the same league with the Brighton and the Sea Beach. Had the Dyre Avenue been made into the Bronx portion of the Second Avenue Subway (making it a BMT/IND line), it would have had more extensive railroad running alongside Amtrak's Northeast Corridor line. Then it could be in the same league with the Brighton and the Sea Beach. But since the TA in its infinte way of short-sightedness, decided to build a bus garage in the the path of the old Westchester line south of 177th Street and we all know what the fate of the Second Avenue Subway is, the Dyre Avenue will not really be like the Sea Beach or the Brighton.
I think the best of all the lines that you mention is the BMT Brighton line in Brooklyn. The Brighton line is one of the best lines in the entire system in my own opinion. Now if they could restore the express tracks on the Sea Beach Line to use that would also be a great run.
BMTJeff
I 100% agree. The TA decided to completely remove the Coney Island-bound express track from service. But they should be offering some kind of express service on the remaining express track. But I do like the Brighton for its intersting stations, especially the local stations below Newkirk.
Attaway guys, keep plugging my Sea Beach. It's music to my ears. I wonder if it's a pipe dream that they may someday refurbish the express tracks on my favorite line. I don't think so. For now I'm hoping to someday see it back as the Broadway Express and zooming over the Manny B. Who knows, maybe someday soon.
If they had a Sea Beach train that was express from Coney Island to 57th Street in Manhattan that would be a great ride. Maybe the best ride in the entire subway system.
BMTJeff
Jeff: Unfortunately the don't, and that's the rub. It bugs me no end that they don't. It also bugs me no end that the Sea Beach has been thrown off the Manny B, and is a local instead of an express. Other than that everything is copasetic.
It would certainly be a great run.
A great run in wastefulness.
The problem with the Sea Beach express is the same one shared by the unused express at the other (Astoria) end of the N route: No intermediate stops. It serves noone except those at the very end. Still, that's something. The folks at the end of the line are the ones who need express service the most.
:-) Andrew
>>>The problem with the Sea Beach express is the same one shared by the unused express at the other (Astoria) end of the N
route: No intermediate stops. It serves noone except those at the very end.
MisterK: Yes, that's absolutely right! - and I'm surprised that noone has made this comparison explicitly before. THe Astoria express track only allows two stops after QB Plaza: AStoria Blvd and Ditmas Blvd; as previous threads here have established, an express stop at BWAy Station (due to high patronage there) would be much more appropriate. The NX was express all the way from 59th/4th AVe. to Coney Island IIRC; thus, all local Sea Beachers are actually unable to use this express.
-cordially,
turnstiles
An Astoria express would make more sense than Sea Beach express, though. Ditmars to QBP is a fairly short line with high ridership, especially at Ditmars & Astoria Blvds where buses unload from the Outer Reaches. Loads would be spread out more evenly, because few would ride the local from Ditmars & Astoria Blvds, and riders getting on between Astoria Blvd and QBP would have less crowded trains to get on.
The NX, on the other hand, served only Sheepshead Bay & Coney Island, which has far more services for its ridership, including the Brighton express, in comparison to Astoria's N or Nothing, and it went a long way before picking up anyone else.
The NX was discontinued due to lack of ridership. This is because of the long stretch without stopping. I believe that today an NX would be appealing if it made all stops between Brighton Beach and Kings Highway, then using the switch to run express to 59th St. But I don't know about track space on 4th Ave, car shortage, etc.
An express stop or two along the Sea Beach line would have made express service much more useful. The whole business of a nonstop run was a good idea in 1915, when the masses used public transit to get to Coney Island, but it's obsolete now.
30 Ave and Broadway serve more customers than Astoria Blvd. Busses also unload many customers at those stations as well. Also from riding it many times during rush hour, the 30 Ave and Bway folks gather more towards the center of the train while the Astoria and Ditmars folk use the ends of the train. But since this is an Astoria vs. Sea Beach express debate, I won't go more into the just Astoria thing.
Can't let Queens be left out of this!
The Flushing line is the most prideful line we have. And it really is something to be proud of! Now if only it were connected to something.
:-) Andrew
I do like the Flushing line since it is elevated for most of the distance.
BMTJeff
>Hey Stef: I didn't know you south Bronxites took much interest in our BMT battles. The IRT is more in your balliwick so why not stay there?<
Because, Fred, the IRT is BORING! It has no variety in its routes (only tunnels and els), too many stops that are too close together (the 2 train is the worst offender - 20 stops in the Bonx alone!), and its subway cars were UGLY and boring, unlike the variety you got in the nice imaginative BMT cars. Even the TA cars that ran on the IRT were cursed with those ugly, boring, black and white route signs in the 70s and into the early 80s, while their BMT/IND counterparts had those nice multi-colored route signs. TA rolling stock on the IRT lines from the R15s to the R36s looked almost exactly the same, while there was so much variety in TA rolling stock on the BMT/IND lines from the R32 on. It was said that the R12 and R14 were the IRT versions of the R10 and that the R17 was the IRT version of the R16. Well, where was the IRT version of the R32, R38, R40 (Slant or Modified) or R42? Why no IRT version of the R44 or 46? Now that would have been cool!
That's why I always liked the BMT and IND lines better, especially the Southern Division. In fact I spent many times riding the Sea Beach and Brighton lines after school at Brooklyn Tech. Had I gone to Bronx Science, my trip there would have been on the bus and I probably never would have explored the subway to the extent that I did while at Tech. And on the way to Science, all I would have seen were boring IRT elevated lines (the 2 and the 4) and C and D trains laying over at Concourse Yard. But while at Tech, I rode everything except the Eastern Division (though I did ride the J, L and Z in Manhattan). I must say that the Sea Beach and the Brighton were the ones I liked the most. Both feel more like riding on a regular railroad because they're not on els above a street, except for the Brighton after Brighton beach. The Brighton has express service both directions on weekdays, which is a definite plus. On the other hand, you get to ride through the Coney Island Yards when you ride the Sea Beach. Too bad, there's no express, though. Although with one express track completely removed from service, maybe some kind of part time express could be provided on the Sea Beach.
As for the one IRT line that does run a railroad ROW, the Dyre Avenue line is a nice run thanks to its widely-spaced stops (definitely the exception on the IRT). Unfortunately, it is too short with only five stops. Maybe if the city could have purchased more of the old Westchester line (maybe up to Mount Vernon or New Rochelle), this line could have had some kind of express service and maybe been the IRT Division's version of the Brighton or Sea Beach.
Hands down, the Brighton is far superior to the Sea Beach.
The Brighton has an express and a local where the Slow Bunch has well, a slow local.
ScottinSF
Doug: I knew you had a serious problem but I couldn't figure out what it was. Eating all those hamburgers with all that marbled fat and cholestoral can certainly account for that seemingly stopped up feeling of yours. Anyone ever tell you you need more bran in your diet? Well I'm telling you, you need it. Hint Hint. Now you can show me the door.
Eating lean adds more years to one's life.
I don't want extra years in my life, if I can't have life in my years.
Therefore I will eat as my tongue dictates, and not the nutritional chart. If necessary, I can exercise, but I will not rob my taste buds of pleasure.
That's what you say now Pork, but let me tell you something---and listen good. YOU WON'T BE TALKING LIKE THAT TWENTY OR THIRTY YEARS FROM NO. I GUARANTEE YOU. If you do you will be in very bad shape. Diet and excercise are no absolute guarantees of good health, but they certainly help a lot. Bad diet and no exercise is a one way ticket to health problems, illnesses, and possibly premature death. I hope you heed what I've just said. It could be the best thing I've ever said on this site. Please pay heed.
That's what you say now Pork, but let me tell you something---and listen good. YOU WON'T BE TALKING LIKE THAT TWENTY OR THIRTY YEARS FROM NO. I GUARANTEE YOU. If you do you will be in very bad shape. Diet and excercise are no absolute guarantees of good health, but they certainly help a lot. Bad diet and no exercise is a one way ticket to health problems, illnesses, and possibly premature death. I hope you heed what I've just said. It could be the best thing I've ever said on this site. Please pay heed.
"With the understanding that I am not an impartial observer in this continuing controversy, I'd like to propose a solution. With the cooperation of Vince McMahon and the WWF, I'm proposing a good old fashion Brooklyn "Hot Fudge Sunday" Wrestling Match between Brighton Beach Bob and Seabeach Fred.'
The match must be a 2 out of 3 fall "cage match". No disqualifications which means bringing third rail protection board brackets, signal heads, R-68 rollsigns, and turnstiles are OK.
If Sea Beach Fred loses, he must denounce the Sea Beach line for a year and must appear in NYC to ride the Brighton Line for a week. He mustn't fly but take a Grayhound bus from the Left Coast too. Last stipulation is he must lecture an auditorium of students at Brooklyn College as to why the the BMT route numbers are 1-Brighton and 4-Sea Beach. That's two route numbers behind the Fourth Ave. local and West End !!
And if BrightonExp Bob loses..............won't happen, because the Brighton is still #1 (numero uno,capice paison !)
Bill "Newkirk"
Brighton line rules
NUFF SAID !
Can't we all just get along? Heh. The Brighton was the line I worked but I've done the Sea Beach too and it's not a bad railroad either. So what if it goes through Bensonhurst? All is forgiven. :)
just the outskirts of Bensonhurst As I stated Fred and I are meeting at his place March 20, and the the match will be a Jewish/Italian Food Fight, best 2 of 3 falls
Who's going to yell "FOOD FIGHT!!!!"?
His dogs will bark twice
Honestly, you two leave me in stitches.
You two would make a great comedy duo. I can see a Brighton vs Sea Beach routine which culminates in either a shouting match or food fight. Kind of what Bob Hope and Bing Crosby used to do in their movies.
What the hell Steve. Maybe Dullton Beach Bob and I get together we can start working on some kind of routine. Good to know we are keeping you happy, and not to mention many others, too. Well we have to liven up the place don't we? So here we go again and again and again and again.
Heh. I have old friends in Bensonhurst ... that's the reason I rode the N in the first place. Getting to Stillwell or Brighton on the D was always much faster. Whoops, I just dissed the SeaBeach. Mea culpa. (grin)
...the match will be a Jewish/Italian Food Fight...
Matzo ball soup, brisket, and noodle pudding will beat minestrone, mussels marinara, and cannolli any day of the week :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But not fusilli, ravioli and lasagna. No way. Sorry, but our food is better. Just ask around. BTW, I thought your type of food fell more in the line of salt pork, mustard greens, grits, and chitlins.
whose food, you are not talking Jewish food, we don t eat pork, you should know better
Allright then, chicken fried steak, turnup greens, grits, chitlins and pecan pie. Is that better? Anon is from the South, you know, Jeff Davis country, and I was just bantering with a real nice guy. Sorry about the pork. I should no better since my daughter is going with a Jewish boy, and we eat over there often. No pork.
You see, that's why Jews and Muslims are my favorite people. They (we in the case of Jews) don't eat me!
Very strange person, indeed!!!
Hindus won t eat you either. But a Good Filipino would serve Pork 500 different ways
I'm a Southern Jew, Fred... no pork for me... I do think the best possible breakfast is three eggs scrambled in butter, grits with more butter, and a basket of fresh hot biscuits with a jar of homemade blackberry jam...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I stand corrected Anon, and I told Brighton Beach Bob that. But your breakfast sounds a lot like a reservation with a heart attack. Wow! Do you really eat that stuff every day? Yikes!!! I now eat oatmeal every morning, along with a garlic pill and a beta glucin vitamin. Smetimes I have yogurt. Surprise surprise. I'm Catholic and I don't eat pork either, that is very very seldom. Don't like it or red meat very much.
Do you really eat that stuff every day?
Only when I'm down home in North Carolina... up in Jersey I don't have time during the week. Breakfast in NJ is usually a couple of Cokes, topped off with a buttered hard roll. On Sunday though, if I feel like baking, I'll do it. I buy enough jam at the fire department fundraiser to last the year... my older son will pick up my annual supply this Saturday since I won't be home. Not sure if there will be enough blackberry this year since the premier producer, Ola V. Perdue, had another mild stroke and moved in with her daughter last fall, but Judy Jeffries makes wonderful muscadine preserves and Ruth Winstead's strawberry preserves are out of this world... (why am I getting the urge to make a batch of biscuits at this hour of the night?)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon: The biscuits and the jam do sound good. I could dive into a pile of them but it's that other stuff that scares the hell out of me. Have a great weekend but don't overdo it.
The biscuits and the jam do sound good.
They are. My younger daughter (home from law school on spring break) got inspired a few minutes ago and is out in the kitchen right now making some... water's almost boiling for the grits, I'll cook the eggs once she gets the biscuits in the oven... we'll have some fig preserves from Ola V. Perdue's own fig trees... wish I could afford to buy her house, it's on the market now, she and her late husband operated a country store so it has a couple of huge rooms that would make a wonderful space for a layout and workshop, plus it's got those fig trees...
Gotta run, the grits are on and the biscuits just went into the oven, my turn in the kitchen :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How does one really eat grits? During my motorcycle trip down to Florida, we would stop for breakfast below the Mason Dixon line and couldn't believe people could punish themselves like that. Yeah, I know - the south lost but that was years ago. Punishment is over. BTW: what's the name of the chain of eateries along I-95 that specialize in breakfast fare (waffle house or something like that)? I can't seem to remember it.
Grits are wonderful, Steve, as long as they're prepared right. I've had a lot that were too watery though - you want them smooth, not soupy. And you can add all sorts of things to them - butter or cheese is common in our household, non-Jewish households often serve them with red-eye gravy and ham or bacon on the side.
And the Waffle House is a common sight along I-95 - you do remember correctly. They're not too bad, and most of them are open 24 hours. We rarely stop to eat on our travels between NJ and NC nowadays - we pack a cooler in the car instead - but there is one in Colonial Heights (VA) where I've stopped a few times when I used to drive at night that was especially good.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Grits ... the tofu of southern dining. For anyone who is not familiar with the customs of Jesse Helms country, Noo Yawkers might want to observe the following protocols:
Issued by the Southern Tourism Bureau to ALL visiting
Northerners And Northeastern Urbanites:
1) Don't order filet mignon or pasta primavera at Waffle House.
It's just a diner. They serve breakfast 24 hours a day. Let
them cook something they know. If you confuse them, they'll
kick your ass.
2) Don't laugh at our Southern names (Merleen, Bodie,
Ovine, Luther Ray,Tammy Lynn, Darla Beth, Inez, Billy Joe,
Sissy, Clovis, etc.). Or we will just HAVE to kick your ass.
3) Don't order a bottle of pop or a can of soda down here.
Down here it's called Coke. Nobody gives a damn whether
it's Pepsi, RC, Dr.Pepper, 7-Up or whatever - it's still a
Coke. Accept it. Doing otherwise can lead to an ass kicking.
4) We know our heritage. Most of us are more literate than
you (e.g.,Welty, Williams, Dickey, Faulkner, O'Henry,
Wolfe, etc.). We are also better educated and generally a
lot nicer. Don't refer to us as a bunch of hillbillies, or
we'll kick your ass.
5) We have plenty of business sense (e.g., Fred Smith of
Fed Ex, Turner Broadcasting, MCI WorldCom, MTV, Netscape).
Naturally, we do sometimes, have small lapses in judgment
(e.g., Carter, Edwards, Duke, Barnes,Clinton). We don't care
if you think we are dumb. We are not dumb enough to let
someone move to our state in order to run for the Senate.
If someone tried to do that, we would kick their ass.
6) Don't laugh at our Civil War monuments. If Lee had
listened to Longstreet and flanked Meade at Gettysburg
instead of sending Pickett up the middle, you'd be paying
taxes to Richmond instead of Washington. If you visit
Stone Mountain and complain about the carving, we'll kick
your ass.
7) We are fully aware of how high the humidity is, so shut
the hell up. Just spend your money and get the hell out of
here, or we'll kick your ass.
8) Don't order wheat toast at Cracker Barrel. Everyone will
instantly know that you're a Yankee. Eat your biscuits
like God intended-with gravy. And don't put sugar on your
grits, or we'll kick your ass.
9) Don't talk about how much better things are at home
because we know better. Many of us have visited Northern
hell-holes like Detroit, Chicago, and DC, and we have the
scars to prove it. If you don't like it here, Delta is ready
when you are. Move your ass on home before it gets kicked.
10) Yes, we know how to speak proper English. We talk
this way because we don't want to sound like you. We don't
care if you don't understand what we are saying. All other
Southerners understand what we are saying, and that's all
that matters. Now, go away and leave us alone, or we'll
kick your ass.
11) Don't complain that the South is dirty and polluted.
None of OUR lakes or rivers have caught fire recently. If
you whine about OUR scenic beauty, we'll kick your ass all
the way back to Boston Harbor.
12) Don't ridicule our Southern manners. We say sir and ma'am.
We hold doors open for others. We offer our seats to old
folks because such things are expected of civilized people.
Behave yourselves around our sweet little grey-haired
grandmothers or they'll kick some manners into your ass just
like they did ours.
13) So you think we're quaint or losers because most of us
live in the countryside? That's because we have enough
sense to not live in filthy, smelly, crime-infested cesspools
like New York or Baltimore. Make fun of our fresh air, and
we'll kick your sorry ass.
14) Last, but not least, DO NOT DARE to come down here and
tell us how to barbecue. This will get your ass shot
(right after it is kicked). You're lucky we let you come down
here at all. Criticize our barbeque, and you will go home in
a pine box.
Minus your ass.
Last, but not least, DO NOT DARE to come down here and tell us how to barbecue. This will get your ass shot (right after it is kicked).
Heck, we have barbecue wars between eastern and western North Carolina. I don't partake of the pig variety, but I like my chicken eastern-style. What they serve in the western part of the state ain't fit for human consumption :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here in upstate, if it ain't cow, sausage or mystery bird, it ain't worth turning on the GAS ... now that oughta qualify me for a traditional whoopin' just for saying "gas" ... heh. No half-55 gallon drums up here, only those yuppie barbies ... and we're supposed to be impressed and "kiss the chef" ... yipe! :)
Selkirk: I',m laughing my ass off. Well done. Hilarious. I hope Anon and other Southerners don't get upset over this. I know it's in fun, but it is really funny. Terrific, and when appropriate keep them coming.
Sounds like most of my new Neighbors in the Northern Shenandoah Valley, real friendly and always say hi.
Ha ha Bob. Think of the irony of it all. You're now a Southerner, and I'm a Yankee.
Yeh, but I go 20 miles North and I am Yankee Country(A Northern State)
Got family in Mauldin and Greenville ... needless to say, we pack our own lunch. Pizza the Hut is about as good as it gets down yonder. :)
I promise not to tell you how to barbecue if you promise not to tell me how to make a cheesesteak.
I wouldn't DARE do that. Been to downtown Philly several times - did a stint at WMMR many many years ago ... about as close as we can get up here is steak-ums on Italian bread with onions and melted cheese (I don't do cheese that comes in a can) ... would love to be able to do the real thing though I was never big on the peppers part. Sure would love to know the secret of the sauce though. But there ya are, proof that I'm completely unqualified to do any whining. :)
Trust me, A-1 is the secret of the sauce (unless you're talking about a pizza steak, in which it's Marinara sauce).
Aw that's too easy. Heh. Thanks for the tip! You can't get the real thing up here ... the little 'burg of 2000 that I live in has some decent pizza that puts most of NYC's pizza places to shame but that's about as good as it gets. You can even get kishka knishes up here and latke (even the REAL knishes, round - not those square things) and Sabrett's ... but Phillyfood, nah ... gotta roll yer own here.
This was the Funniest post I have ever read.
But, Northern people have their own code.
Issued by the Northern 'Terrorism' bureau to all southerners and people who generally talk funny
1. We like living in cramped places up here. Don't insult us for that or the NYPD will be forced to place a bullet in your ass.
2. Don't laugh at our Ghetto names (Laquinta, Jamiqua, Raquan, etc.) If you do, we will not kick your ass, we'll throw it off a project roof.
3. We know OUR heritage. We never was literate. Thus the amount of high school drop-outs. Pointing this out will result in a whipping of your ass
4. We know we let someone else move here to run for senate. Telling us about this will result in a prompt removal of your ass from the state.
5. Don't complain about our dirty streets, or our filthy neighboords. Doing so will land you with an ass whipping.
6. We know it's cold. Yes, that's ice on the ground. Either shut up and deal with it or risk having your ass kicked all the way home
7. Don't order biscuits at an italian reataurant. If you do everyone will know you're a hick, At which time You will be escorted outside for an ass whipping.
8. Don't say things are much better down south, cuz we've been there, and we have the animal bites to prove it. Oddly enough, this does not result in having your ass kicked, shot or whipped, but expect to have your ass held up.
9. No, we do not know how to speak english properly. Any attempt at trying to teach us English will result in a simultaneous ass kicking from the UFT, for being a "non-unionized worker" and from the Board of Ed., for teaching without a liscense.
10. Don't even think about saying that only 'the country' has a music genre named after it. Doing this will result in an ass whipping.
11. Do Not say that 'dogs belong outside'. Doing this will land your ass doing community work for the ASPCA, beginning immeadiately after the ending of your ass whipping.
12. Do not ridicule our lack of manners. We say things like 'Move b*tch' and 'get the hell away from me' on purpose. We don't offer seats to old people or pregnant women. Any attempt to change this will result in Having your ass kicked.
13. Finally, do not insult the way we dress. Whether it's baggy jeans, or a finely made Italian Suit, you do not 'disrespect' the way we dress. Doing so will not result in an ass whipping, kicking, beating or etc.
We will barbaque your ass.
The first time I went to the South in 1973 I was amazed when I ordered breakfast and they gave me grits with my sausage and eggs. ( I ate that kind of food back then). Good God Steve, when I tasted those grits I wanted to heave. They tasted like #$^&#. Like little soft pebbles. I asked for hashed browns and they reacted to me like I was General Sherman returning for another March through Georgia. I told them I was from another part of the country and didn't cotton to grits. They called me a Yankee and I said I ought to learn how to really eat. I said something under my breath. No, I never got those hash browns.
I TOLD YOU WERE A YANKEE
NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING A YANKEE!!!
Then again:
NOTHING WRONG WITH SOUTHERN-STYLE GRITS.
Or southern rural living, where all my relatives who visit from down there are scared of the subway, but not of wild animals.
You should have told them about the Sea Beach.:-)
This can happen on the 20th of March, since Fred and I are having dinner together at his place that evening. But I out weigh him by at least 50 lbs
I would have to depend on quickness. By the way how much are we charging the public to watch this spectacle?
Fred we have to get themout there. The chjeapist air fare between NYC and LAX is 298.00 via Chicago, and they would have to book with me by Friday.
Route numbers or otherwise, the #4 or the N, is the Slow Beach, anyway you look at it. The D Brighton local gets you there faster. The Slow Beach is not even in the same class as the Q, no matter whether Brightliners, Slants, or R68/As are running on it.
Thanks for all the support I received from all of you guys out there. I really appreciated it. I'm being sarcastic. No Sea Beach people came to my aid. Tsk tsk tsk.
Fred, to paraphrase the old joke, "The seabeach is better than the West End".
Well I guess it's some consolation.
"No Sea Beach people came to my aid. Tsk tsk tsk."
Well Fred................there aren't many !
The Brighton Line Boys:
Bill "Newkirk"
Lou from Brooklyn
Paul Matus
heypaul
DougBMTman
ScottinSF
#1BrightonExpBob
Q Brightliner
Jorge Q 6th Ave
others not mentioned
When this gang gets together, they don't ride motorcycles and rumble with chains and baseball bats. They arm themselves with cameras and are seen at any local Brighton station shooting R-40 slants zooming by on the express track. Next week they will invade foreign turf and ride the Sea Beach from Stillwell to Times square and fight to stay awake !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Wish i can make it,
Well if they would put that off until Saturday March 31 when I'm in town, I guarantee you with me aboard they'd have no trouble staying awake. Maybe some of you guys will be around then and I can railfan with a couple of you. OK, I'll also ride the Brighton.
Wow: What a plan. I'd rather have you on my side Dude, but considering your bias towards the Brighton I'll overlook it. But having Doug in my corner? You think he'd go for that? I don't know. How about instead of a wrestling match, a kick boxing match? That would be more exciting. I saw one on Walker-Texas Ranger last night and it was cool. Dude, you're one cool speciman.
ROTFLMAO You really outdid yourself, Steve. You da man!
How about a tug-of-war? You'd need a couple of cheering sections regardless of the type of contest, yelling "Brighton!" and "Sea Beach!" back and forth.
Or a pie-eating contest?
Or a White Castle burger-eating contest?:-)
>>>Re: Seabeach vs Brighton - which one is best.<<<
AHH, they both SUCK. The CULVER RULES!
Peace,
ANDEE
The Culver, it is local all the way no express service anywhere
That's not true. There is occasionally peak direction express service from Kings Hwy.
Bob: Consider the source.
I do and did
From 1985 - 1994 I worked out of Jamaica - the F line
From 1994 - 1996 I worked out of the Concourse - the D line
From 1996 - 1997 I worked out of jamaica - the F line
From 1997 - 1998 I worked out of the Concourse - the D line
From 1998 - 1999 I worked out of Jamaica - The F line
From 1999 - the present I work out of the Concourse, the D line
Next year I may have to agree with you but for now the D rules.
Culver line is the line Salaam hates. No railfan window, no justice.
Chaohwa
No railfan window? Well then, it just cannot rate. How can you have a subway train worth its salt without a railfan window. That's ridiculous.
That's one of a few things that make the R44 and R46 undesirable in my opinion. The huge, ugly, grey exterior and the digital LCD side signs also contribute.
:-) Andrew
They have the best looking interior and (with the R-68) the best seat layout.
Those things are important. While external appearance is important (the R-68A is king of that), I don't give a flying f--- about a railfan window.
"How can you have a subway train worth its salt without a railfan window?"
Sounds like Fred is practicing "Salaamism".
By my count the latest Subtalk poll shows:
West End: 2
Culver: 1
Sea Beach: 2
Brighton: everybody else
Of course, there will most likely be a recount, chads included.:-)
Well I'm surprised I got two votes. Who backed me up? Wow. That was a surprise. Hey, I'm no longer alone.
They just feel sorry for you, all alone in Arcadia no subway for 20 miles
I think it was that Astoria guy with the double-lettered routes like QB/TT or something.
No, I figured he was a West End fan. Someone else who posts from time to time has expressed an affinity for the Sea Beach.
As I said, recounts are a sure bet.
Hey Steve:
Who was that culver supporter? (I guess me, but i think this was taken before my whole 'Culver is best' rant.)
They do not have White Castle in LA, I could go for a In and Out Burger though
"In and out" eh? Sure says "fast food" to me ... you mean they don't even have White Castle in the white box in the supermarkets out there? Those individually wrapped pucks are nothing like chowing down in an actual White Castle, but at least you can get them in most areas of the country - they're in all the stores up here ...
They have them Frozen In LA, they even have them in Hawaii and Hong Kong
Then they DO have them in LA then ... my comment was based on the phrase, "They do not have White Castle in LA, I could go for a In and Out Burger though"
So now the question for us here on the right coast would be, what is the old "in and out?" and does it qualify as "fast" food like a good sack of White Castles can be counted on? Inquiring mimes knead to no ya know ... :)
>>> what is the old "in and out?" and does it qualify as "fast" food <<<
In N Out Burger is a privately owned West Coast very limited menu chain. They don't have much, but what they have is tasty. Here are the official and unofficial websites.
You frequently see their bumper stickers which say "In N Out" centered on the first line over "BurgeR" on the second line, with the ends trimmed so the "B" and "R" on the second line are missing.
Tom
Got it ... checked out the sites ... well, ya see ... in Noo Yawk City, there's White Castle (and there used to be a knockoff called "White TOWER" as well) ... both specialized in "fast food" (which meant it ripped through you real fast like an A train on CPW) ... you'd grab a sackful of the burgers (real masochists would actually "eat in" and then try to waddle home in time) ... our burgers would really clean your clock if you didn't have an iron stomach. That's how we could easily spot out of towners since you eventually became immune to them. :)
>>> Noo Yawk City, there's White Castle <<<
I remember the White Castles with their 15 cent hamburgers that I could not stand when I was in New York. I can't imagine why anyone would want to buy their frozen hamburgers in supermarkets.
Tom
Heh. Sometimes when you gotta go and you can't, ain't nothing like those mystery onions in the "holy burger" to make things alright without the "gentle relief only Metamucil provides." And say what you will about those things, a Saturday night out just wasn't the same without grabbing a sack. Sure they were awful, but a bag of ten was priced just right and your face was stuffed. Sometimes, that's everything. Be grateful you never ate at a Wetsons or a "Goody's" Now THAT was awful ...
White Castles are great. Of course, I don't eat them all that often (who does?), and I never got more than five. Getting ten requires a bit too strong of a constitution. When I used to drive to White Castle and bring it home, maybe I could have taken ten and had direct access to a toilet, but I can't take more than five.
I liked getting the mozzarella sticks and chicken rings, at least until Burger King (WCs are fairly rare, Burger Kings proliferate like weeds) put mozzarella sticks in their 99¢ Great Tastes Menu.
Yeah, bugger kinks are everywhere, even here in the woods ... no WC's at all though, that seems strictly a city thang. Maybe if we can convince our politicians to build us a subway up here, we'll get one. :)
Thanks Old Tom. They buy them and eat them because they are nutritionally stupid. That's crap food. It may taste good but it is no good for you. However, let me be honest. There are times I can really go for a nice bag of French fries. They're no good for you either, but they taste real good and, well, I don;t have complete food discipline.
They buy them and eat them because they are nutritionally stupid.
What the hell does that mean? I know exactly what's in that food. I even know that nutritional calories are really kilocalories.
But I don't care. I'm not going to live my life eating salad.
But I don't care. I'm not going to live my life eating salad.
If you did, you wouldn't be the Other White Meat, you be a rabbit.
"Turtle shurtel, I'm the Rabbit!!!"
I like that analogy to the A train. Of course, they ripped along CPW in the good old days.
I had one White Castle burger in Chicago as a kid. Nothing happened.
White Castle had a twin in thelate 60s in Miami called Royalm Castle, At least they had fresh squeezed OJ there
Be grateful ... heh. Seriously, they weren't bad at all ... tiny little suckers, that's why you bought them by the bag. And no, the ones done up in the frozen food section ain't the same as fresh off the grill ... I'd do the one on Fordham Road regularly.
Believe or not the worse Hamburger I ever had was in a Major Railroad Staion. You would never guess. HAMBURG GERMANY, they even grilled the lettuce. The worse one in the USA was 20 years ago in Woolworth in Keene NH, I found out later nit was a HAMburger
The frozen ones (with onions and either and without cheese) are fairly common nowadays in supermarkets all across the country, though in some areas people probably have no idea there's actually a White Castle fast food restaurant chain.
Hamburgers????? Yuk! They are no good for you. Bad food. Full of caqlories and fat. It's bad enough that as you get older it is harder to stay in shape and keep your weight down. Do you have to make it worse by eating that crap? How about a nice piece of broiled halibut or chicken breast? That is real good food. Of course, there is always Pasta. But since I run I can eat it if I don't over indulge.
Fish and chicken with pasta. That is great. Much better than that greasy burger crap with all the dripping oil.
Beware - most burgers are lower in bad fat than the chicken from Boston Market with the salad ... what doesn't kill ya only makes ya stronger ...
Check out the nutritional info on the boston market frozen foods at the supermarket. Creamed Spinach, for example, has 4 X the calories from fat as Birds Eye has. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?
Must be me - at 50, I'm determined to go out with a smile on my face and thus I always make sure to get my minimum adult daily requirement of vitamin F and vitamin S (fat and sugar) ... when you live out in the sticks and don't have to live in the rat race, why you can even smoke cigarettes and still run like a 20 year old. Well, maybe not everybody but life's a whole lot healthier where there's some oxygen. :)
Most of the local dairy farmers prefer their moomeat wet and greasy too.
I don't think Popeye cared.:-)
He ate it right out of the can
How about a contest-worthy Nathan's face-stuffing? Whoever loses has to empty the stand. :)
Or a White Castle burger-eating contest?:-)
I've been sittin' on the toilet, all the livelong day!
Can't you hear the wind a-breakin'?:-)
There they sit broken hearted, came to shit but only farted.
Is Fred talking about Georgie W Again?
No Bob, I'm talking about your lady Hillary.
She ain t my Lady I like the 2 Lady Senators from Calif Boxer and Feinstein. Yuk can you imagine ARNOLD running for Gov in Calif. Hope he takes diction lessons, he talks like he has marbles in his mouth
Now don't fall off your seat Bob, but I will vote for my first Democrat since 1986 when Davis runs for re-election next year. What he has done for teachers is astounding. Hell my retirement package has been upped by about eight thousand dollars a year. That's a lot of cabbage. I will be a Republican for Davis next year. You have to pay back that kind of generosity. Besides, I do like Davis. I think he has been a good governor.
No White Castle burger eating contest please. Poor BMT Doug is stopped enough with that marbled fat red meat. Let's get him well and not have to worry about others getting goofed up with that rotten food.
thanks for the storm door !!!!... when will you send it ?? much appreciated !!
Once we have the wrestling match between Fred and Bob and raise money for the shipping.
TD, you forgot to tell Salaam that the storm-door will come with a certificate of authenticity from heypaul.
BMTmon (just using a little Jamaician accent on my handle, mon)
Not only the certificate but I'll also send salaam a key so he can lock and unlock his door PLUS it will also have authentic railfan drool stains on the storm door glass.
How much would you NOW expect to pay? But don't answer yet, for a limited time only, we'll also throw in the fabulous Low_V WIND CHIMES!
What, a Scratchitti-free door? I suppose Salaam is getting a pre-rebuild storm-door?
BMTman
Actually, it will be a freshly shopped storm door from the first Redbird that gets scrapped. (the fish don't need storm doors)
It will be sent to Shore Line, Seashore and IRM for that railfan drool, then Fed-ex'd to Salaam.
Yeah, now you're talking! There's nothing like the drool of a railfan!
-Stef
"By your reasoning, the 14th Street-Canarsie Line (modern day L) was the greatest train of all, sixteen times better than the Brighton and four times better than the Sea Beach."
You must be joking........................are you ?
Bill "Newkirk"
John: Sea Beach Fred writing here from California. I have an entirely different impression of Mexicans. My gardener is Mexican, my barber is Mexican, my doctor is Mexican, my first friend I made in California is Mexican, my favorite baseball coach I ever played for is Mexican, the person who the most for me during the unhappiest year of my life in 1958 is Mexican, my best pitcher of the Stan Musial Teams is Mexican, the MVP of the last team I coached is Mexican, and, simply put, I consider Mexican-Americans to be my good luck charm. Pay no heed to what that guy said. He was either frustrated, mad, or just slipped and in anger said some stupid things. I know for me that without Mexican-American people in my life it would have been very different for me in a very negative way, and to have matured in California with Mexican-Americans helping to shape my maturity, it would have been intolerable. Hang in there amigo.
You've probably said better things than that, but I wasn't here to see them, so that's the best post I've ever read from you. And that's a compliment by the way.
Yeah, I agree too, RTS, but his concern should really be for the injured party, not the injurer. Peace To All, Thomas ;)
DITTO! I hate racists, man...that guy should pack up his bags and move to Missouri where he can clean up litter on Interstate 55 - I'm sure they'd love him there.
Ole Ole.... Ole... Ole!!
::clap clap::
So it's OK to go and call me B**rd. I'm not a racist and I don't care if you, Thomas, or the other people who dislike me use it or applaued it.
The truth is it's not a disagreement, it's the same teasing garbage I had to put up with in school.
I don't need this type of behavior, and if I were David P. I would close Subtalk so everybody can just cool their flames down.
There are so many flames around here (directed toward me) that it could melt all the snow in upstate NY right now.
You clearly applauded "Ole Ole.... Ole... Ole!!
::clap clap:: " to this nasty inflammatory post
"Dear John: BASTA, Bastard! I thought SubTalk unspoken etiquette was to avoid religion, race, and politics! It is obvious that you
need to be schooled in this,as well as re-educated in certain misconceptions you hold so allow me the "honor". . . "
" and take your stereotyping and racist
hate-mongering elsewhere, like perhaps a good KKK bulletin board. And get a doctor soon for that athlete's mouth you are
undoubtedly by now afflicted with, and get to steppin'. CLASS OVER. >:-( "
All this just for saying the 7 train felt like Mexico. I was half joking. Many other people here have used cultural references in the past, but have not gotten the harsh and cruel treatment from this group.
I don't need this. In fact, I'm not wasting my time here anymore. This group is more interested in flaming me because they think they can get away with it. Well you can't. I'm not a robot, I have feelings and words hurt.
And trying to clear my name in vain just don't pay, since you people just don't believe I have respect for all cultures and NOT A RACIST. I guess Jerry Seinfeld is a racist too. Anyone who makes any statements such as "train to Tijuana" or "slow boat to china" is called a racist.
You people, especially Thomas the Subway Engine need to grow up and lose the attitude.
I've had fun here, and I'm sorry I have to leave. But when talk of trains and rails goes to hatred just because of a few sentances, Something is wrong here. It wasn't racism. It wasn't bigotry. It was a an observation. I don't care if someone is Hipanic, Asian, Black, or white, I care about their conduct and personality.
So that's just about it. On this stormy night I leave you. I will read occasionally but not post here anymore or be involved with anything here. I can only take so much abuse before I throw in the towel, and I have. Use this an example not to endlessly pick on someone for making a small mistake, or they too will leave.
David P. has tolerated more than he should have from most of you, and if I were in his shoes I would've shut things down already.
Well my train is leaving now, I must go. Good luck to all, and may there be peace and harmony to come....
I agree with your post.
Some people here seem to have animosity either previously from this board or from elsewhere, and just need to find a scapegoat to lash out at. Personally, I think some folks here WAY OVERREACTED to one guy's opinions. Geez, if you folks disagree, then just say you disagree! This doesn't need to go ON and ON. For the folks who decide to resort to name calling (i.e. "Jack***", "Interstate 55" etc.) is this really necessary?? Personally I am very disappointed at the behaviors some folks here have.
And then, there's the stupid pointless posts like the one from 1SF9 ("Ole Ole" etc). Most of his posts are pointless and stupid and doesn't really have any intellectual meaning. That's why I try not to read his posts because I know when I do, it will be something IDIOTIC. I hope you're not taking that idiot's words for real.
I try not to use KILLFILE. But right now 1SF9 is my primary candidate for that honor.
THAT really helped the situation. Does that make you any better than the other "Over-ractors" on this site?
John may have posted mainly his complaints about various things, but at least his posts had substance. (1) South Ferry (9) hasn't posted anything useful that wasn't cryptic ever. I would actually be happy to see him go, and I'm not afraid to say that.
Yeah, but it was kind of odd to see someone post about this board's reaction to obvious racial comments, then post a flame themselves. That's my only problem. I don't care much for the Ferry myself either. His love of Redbirds is a thing of hilarity.
My "flame" has NOTHING to do with RACE. I do not have any idea what his race is. Please do not compare my "flaming" to racial issues.
And I'm not overreacting here. I think those guys are overreacting because it's been going on for a couple of days (?). My "flame" is only that one post. I posted that because I was disgusted his silly message made another quit the board. Yes, some of John's views may be derogatory, but it doesn't call for a deluge of bad-mouthing and tauntings to the extent of the past few days. Besides, John's tone in his posts doesn't even come close to as harsh as some of the reactions so why respond that way? That, my friend, is overreacting. And to go ahead and then post a message like "Ole Ole, clap clap" makes me sick. I hope I cleared things up.
I never said your flame had anything to do with race. I stated that I found it funny that you jump all over us for going overboard and flaming John and that we should quit, and then you go and flame someone in the EXACT SAME POST! Get your mind right player.
Dude, to refrain from going any further on this board, I have sent you an email. Perhaps you will finally understand my reasoning once and for all.
That's all I have to say. No more postings on this will be made by me. Have a good night.
That should be "Over-reactors."
You know John, as much as I don't want to see anybody leave, what can I do? You and I both know had you been on a train or bus full of black people acting loud and obnoxious or being rude, you would've described their idiotic and inconsiderate behavior, BUT, you would have not made all of those analogies as you did about Hispanic people or "Mexicans." In fact, I find the word "Mexican" deragotory(sp?). I've had a problem with some of your post before, but I never said anything being the passive person than I am, but in hindsight, I should have.
The point is is that you can't just avoid stepping on black people's toes as sensitive as they are, you have to avoid stepping over everyone's toes because they could be even more fragile. If that means keeping opinions that you know some people may find offensive, so be it. Especially if it has to do with race. Come on, you seem to be a man of intelligence John, you should have known better.
And honestly, if I was in David's shoes, I would've suspened you for the weekend or something like that. YOU caused the uproar with those comments. Whether they were meant to be or not, they were racial and anyone with a brain stem knows that race is a sensitive issue. Did you actually thin that no one would be offeneded by that?!
But if you're going to go, you may go. You should reconsider because eventualy everything dies down. But next time if you do continue to post here, you will think about what you post a tad more carefully.
Best of luck and blessings...
RTS: Well said. You spoke to him like a Dutch uncle and I'm sure John is smart enough to know good advice when he hears it. The uproar will die down with time and he will learn from his error, I'm sure. Most of us have said things on this site that we wish we could take back, but, fortunately, very few racist remarks have made their way on this site. If we all learn from what John has experienced, then we'll all be better people for it. Take care.
>>> In fact, I find the word "Mexican" deragotory <<<
Huh? Mexican is the appropriate term to describe someone from the country named "The United States of Mexico" just south of the United States of America. The overwhelming majority of the Mexicans I have known both here and in Mexico are proud of their country and the title "Mexican."
Tom
Here in California we have a term called Chicano which some Mexican-Americans prefer, but not all. Sergio, the man who coached with me for 12 years, hated that term, yet I knew many who liked it. For some reason the term never made past California. It became popular around 1970 or so and I kind of liked the term, but not being of Mexican origin myself I cater to what term an individual might prefer.
Chicano is a US born Mexican to differient the difference
>>> Here in California we have a term called Chicano which some Mexican-Americans prefer <<<
Chicano is a self identifying term for Americans of Mexican ancestry. It was developed during a period of ethnic pride to replace the word "Cholo" which is a derogatory term used by Mexicans to describe Americans of Mexican ancestry who do not write and speak proper Spanish or English, but communicate with an Americanized barrio Spanish which is a mixture of the two languages.
Tom
Do you also find the words 'American', 'Russian', and 'English' derogatory? Because that's what we call persons from the United States, Russia, and England. Just like people from Mexico are 'Mexicans', people from New York are 'New Yorkers', and people from Tampa are 'Tampons' :)
-Hank
I noly find it derogatory becuase of the things it's associated with; Dirty Mexican, Greay Mexican, Lazy Mexican, Damn Mexicans, etc. etc. I've never heard those terms used in conjunction with Hispanic.
Don't worry...my Irish ancestors put up with the very same word before Irish.....but, it never stopped them from calling themselves Irish...IYKWIM
Peace,
ANDEE
So what's the point here? We've all heard those same comments about each of our nationalities and in some cases religeons. I may be wrong but I don't recall John using those terms. Why don't we all give this a rest already. It seems that it's been beaten to death.
BTW: I won't do to you what you did to me when you called me an illiterate jackass. I won't call attention to your multiple mis-spellings. Peace :)
Ha. Ha. I was at school during that posting and I wasn't supposed to be on the net so I had to a rush job.
Under those circumstances you'll definately find ALT+TAB a very useful key combination, useful when a teacher comes nearby and you need to quickly flip to something else. The other good trick is to resize the task bar in Windows 95/98 so that it is not visible so teachers can't look at it and see what may be running in the background. I've been there, done that...
Also, a good Windows 3.x trick is to take a screen capture of the Program Manager window while its active and save the screen capture as a bitmap file and set it to the background image for the desktop. Then, in the real Program Manager window turn on the option so that it saves the settings on exit. Then move the real Program Manager into the bottom right corner of the desktop so that most of the window is off the screen. Then grab the top left corner of the Program Manager window with the mouse and resize it right into that corner - only the top left pixel of the edge of the border of the Program Manager window will be visible. Then ALT-F4 out of Windows and Program Manger's location will be saved. It will appear in that location when Windows is started next. Only the background image will be visible on the screen. Remember that the background image is set to the Program Manager screen capture...
You can do all that with Windows 95 and 98 too, although it's easier with Windows 2000/ME.
95:
Install System Policy Editor from the Windows CD. Use Find to find the POLEDIT folder. Inside will be two INF files, right click on the correct one (One is policy editor, the other is group policy, you can do both) and select Install.
System Policy Editor is added to Start Menu Programs under Accessories/System Tools. Somewhere there will be an option to hide desktop icons.
Then do what you said above, hide the taskbar as you said. You can use the Windows key or CTRL+ESC to open the start menu. You can also shut down by clicking CTRL+ALT+DEL and clicking Shut Down. It will shut down properly (contrary to what that set of keys suggests).
Of course, you can't do that on a workstation in a library.
98:
Can't install policy editor, so figure out which registry key to fix.
Me/2000:
Right Click on the desktop, and point to Active Desktop
Make sure that Show Web Content is checked, if not, select it. Then go back (if necessary) and select Show Desktop Icons to uncheck it.
And finally: If someone's coming and you need to hide what you're doing, press Windows+M to minimize all windows.
And finally: If someone's coming and you need to hide what you're doing, press Windows+M to minimize all windows.
I prefer to use Windows+D... it toggles between "Restore" and "Minimize". On my Win98 at home here Windows+M simply minimizes.....
Windows+shift+M is undo minimize.
Is policy editor included in Windows 2000? If so, where? At school they disabled in my profile the Run, Find, lock workstation, and most importantly Explorer's File Menu. Not in everyone's profile, just mine, at least for Run and Find. They also hid all drives except my particular section of the U drive (though it's dumb easy to get to the hidden ones, it's nice not to have to type it in).
No, it's features are duplicated in the Microsoft Management Console, making it a superfluous feature.
I'd appreciate all of you guys changing the subject banner to something different so that this dead horse of an issue can finally die. Thanks in advance, Porkster!!!
Cordially, Thomas :-)
I'll be sure to remember it next time.
Yes, I'd appreciate it, and stero is find only if we're discussing audio high-fidelity topics. Thanks again. Peace, Thomas :-)
On that note, I found that the PA system in most of the Buffalo Metrorail cars that I rode on on Friday badly distorted the sound of the driver calling the stops with the chopper control's buzzing.
Yes, I'm sure it has something to do with either some kinda feedback or interference or something. -Peace, Thomas :-/
As I've already asked several others posting under this subject heading, I'd very much appreciate you all useing a different one from here on out so that this issue can finally die. I thank you in advance! -Sincerely Thomas :-)
>>> I noly find it derogatory becuase of the things it's associated with; Dirty Mexican, Greay Mexican, Lazy Mexican, Damn Mexicans, <<<
Another stereotype hammered into the American popular culture by the movie westerns. If the outside group who could be killed without any qualms of conscience weren't Indians, they were Mexicans.
Tom
Funny, you say Mexican to me, I only think of people from Mexico. If you see all those other things in the description of a nationality, you've got some serious personal issues.
-Hank
God, stop being such an ass! Do you live in Texas?! Do you know anything about what goes on down in this boring ass state?! NO!
Those derogatory words are what I hear in conjunction with the term "Mexican." I don't know what the hell your rude ass hears up there in NYC!
You my friend have serious personal issues! Are you such a weak person in real life that you must get on a Subway Related Message Board and try to impose an air of superiority you do not possess!? Are you that much of sad human being!? Does this make your life well meaning!? If it does then you need to get your mind right player.
>>> I've never heard those terms used in conjunction with Hispanic. <<<
That's because the same people who use those terms tend to abbreviate the word "Hispanic."
Tom
I'd appreciate you posting under a different subject heading so that this matter can finally die a long overdue death.
Sincerely, Thomas :-)
>>> I'd appreciate you posting under a different subject heading
Why didn't you change the heading when you made the request?
Tom
hank ! do not go to atlanta & tell them you are from new york !! THEY WILL CALL YOU A
"""""""" YANKEE """""""" in a hot NEW YORK minute !!! ( peace )
I'd very much appreciate it if you'd post under a different subject heading banner, so that this issue can finally die and we can all move on. Peace, Thomas :-)
John: Please do not dis on 1SF9 or myself if you disagree with our disagreeing with your post- Have you not seen the umpteen posts I've left on this board where I basically apologize to anyone even to include you who may feel I went a bit overboard in my retalli-um, er- response? The true spirit of SubTalk is one of INCLUSION and not EXCLUSION!!!! I believe very firmly in freedom of speech, but within certain mutually agreeable limits, such as not shouting "FIRE" in a crowded theatre or posting obviously xenophobic or stereotypical posts. . .
I SPECIFICALLY REQUEST THAT YOU DO NOT LEAVE THIS BOARD, ONLT THAT YOU PLEEEZE SCRUTINIZE YOUR SUBMISSIONS FOR POSSIBLE RACE AND CLASS SENSITIVITY. I am affording you the very same forgiveness and acceptance that I would want had I been the one to piss off who knows how many differnt people. Not unlike Gore in his concession speech, I really can't stress UNITY AND ACCEPTANCE enough, as I've said in previous posts, this BOARD is bigger than any one mere person's ego or hurt feelings!!! Yes, I'm glad and surprised Dave P. has kept it up this long, too!!! And I want to keep it that way, too, so this stupid petty misunderstanding really needs to be shelved for all time.
If I watch you leave, your feelings toward all afftected people will not have changed, probably only been made worse, and my hatred and grief will instead fester and become deep-seeded, which helps no one.
Only love can conquer hate, only enlightenment can conquer ignorance, and only acceptance and tolerance can conquer division and exclusion. So to this end, I formally extend to you an olive branch, in an effort to make you, this board, and I, trully WHOLE AGAIN and a cyber-family once more. I simply cannot and will not carry around the guilt or ill-feelings of knowing I took another fellow man and child of God and drove him away, even if it is only from a bulletin board. But if I were you, I'd definitely cool it for a while and post only low-key non-controversial issues and topics.
To all those other SubTalkers who have e-mailed me privately in concern and support, and posted public fames toward John,I thank you, but feel the time has come for me to squash all this hating and feuding once and for all. To err is human, but to forgive is divine, and it is time to rebuild, learn, and move on INTACT.
-Cordially, Thomas :-)
Well put.
I ::clap clap:: to that.
Terrific Tom. I hope John stays online, too. Maybe everyone learned a valuable lesson here. I think of Subtalk as my extended family, and though I have met only one person face to face, I consider just about all of you my comrades in arms. You have shown great class and courage in your last post and I think it shows just what a great bunch of guys we have here on Subtalk. And John, if you're listening, take the advice given you to heart. You will be a better man for it.
As if you've all never heard that song that
goes "Ole Ole... Ole.. Ole!! ::clap clap::"
I just happened to be listening to that song
while reading Thomas' original debuff to this
topic.. and his words stirred my approval.
So, the ::clap clap:: was legit from raza to raza.
John, on the other hand, we're talking the same
SubTALKer who posts "bi-daily" "Subway Troubles"
about "this bad car" and "this wet seat" and about
"2 floors are carpeted in the Westchester Mall"
and this "bad patron pushing by him on the 7"..
..same disgruntled growls, different day.. it gets
OLD......and he sought OUR sympathy over the
Xmas Holidaze?!!?
Cast the NYC Subways in a "positive" light.. leave
your (personal) baggage at the turnstile, Jack.
I think the particularly irritating passage was the reference to it smelling like tacos.
-Hank
"I think the particularly irritating passage was the reference to it smelling like tacos."
Hank, I guess that was more of an irritating statement that it appeared to me. I told my wife that the dog's feet smelled like tacos and she started screaming at me.
Steve
It's a shame that it's come to this. Subtalkers are such a diverse group that there are bound to be disagreements and differences in opinon.
We might post something that could be conceived as inflammatory or offensive in the heat of the moment, and that might be regretted as soon as the POST MESSAGE button is clicked- I certainly have- but we've been drawn to this board out of a common interest. Most of the arguing here is basically good-natured, although this latest thread about racism and ethnic stereotyping is getting kind of old.
I've met John a couple of times on Subtalk trips. He seems basically like a nice guy who's been subjected to an extremely large amount of hard knocks. This site seems to have been a good outlet for him. Yes, some of his posts may be repetitive, but I've been just as guilty. We all have our pet peeves, theories and themes that might be run into the ground.
Dave's been remarkably patient and tolerant of a lot of what's been going on lately. We should all be careful if we don't want to lose this valuable resource.
Agreed Howard, and it's about time to put this to rest once and for all. I will not comment on this particular subject again. Can a few of us second this motion? Please, let's move on.
move on
You've got my vote.
Thank you Steve. I need all the backup and support I can get. As you could plainly read, I was very much outnumbered. But it's quality that counts, not quantity. Right?
I don't know what made you post your message, but you have certainly succeeded in displaying a lot of ignorance and insensitivity. I suggest you read all the replies carefully, consider what happened, and then consider writing an apology and posting it here. Then, move on to other subjects.
>>> Thomas, I learned a long time ago not to use gunpowder when flee powder will do. <<<
I'll second that! Thomas's response far exceeded what was necessary for John's stupid comments.
John's bigoted stereotypes of Mexican or Hispanic people is hardly at the level of what Hitler tried to do in Europe, and does not even rise to the level that was reached by the California voters who approved the anti-immigrant Proposition 187 a few years ago.
I question whether Thomas's righteous indignation applies to all bigots or just those prejudiced against Mexicans. Has he tried to get any TA employees fired who made derogatory comments (including jokes) about Jews, Blacks, Italians, Chinese, Japanese, Arabs. or Whites? If so, he has probably had a significant effect on the turnover rate at the TA.
The idea that he would use his political influence in the TA to try to have an employee fired because of his personal dislike of what he said is repugnant to me.
Tom
The previous message is out of place and should be in response to this post .
Tom
Points well taken, please know that I consider racism and intolerance to be unacceptable regardless of who the particular targets. I apologize to all who may think I used a blowtorch to heat up a baby bottle. I was acting out righteous indignation at the time as I still am now, but have my temper and mouth firmly under control, at least until the next malcontent comes along bitching about some stupid percieved ethnic group dilemma. And no, I'd never use any influence I had at any place for personal gain save maybe for getting myself hired on in some cushy $50K/yr. job!!! (J.K.) I'm very sensitive and wound easily, something I just don't think I need to apologize for or excuse. It certainly doesn't help things either I've already had to put up with this very same kind of @#*! for all of my 30 years in NYC and JC. Eventually any boiler reaches explosion pressure.
The tunover rate and stress leevl at MTA is probably already high enough without the added stress of having some politically oriented hatchet vendetta job being focused on someone, so no SubTalker EVER has to worry about one originating from me. Honestly, had I known my response wouldve caused this much discord and debate on this board, I think I would've just as soon suffered in silence and never posted.
"CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALL ALONG"? -Peace, Thomas:)
¡Dios mio, no puedo creer que alguien como Ud. queda en Nueva York!
wow ! i cannot believe how LONG this series of threads is starting with this post !! I am still looking for some shots of the
Mexico City Mexico ( subway-cars ) & how they look the Los Angeles RED LINE subway cars are soooooo.... dull & boring !!!
Geeeeeeeezzzzzz!!!
Love that # 7 flushing line !! its the BOMB !! ......the #2 is my next choice !!! ( all redbirds ) !!!!!!!!
Howdy! Missed ya! I was afraid you had gone away as well ... sure hope you got to enjoy some of the ball-busting we've been doing on ya throughout the others about somehow shipping a redbird storm door off to you under many a feeble excuse. :)
my sincere thanks for the redbird storm door ( hopefully a transplanted r 21-22 ) on a good old redbird!
sometimes i hear you see them on the # 5 line / dyre avenue. my entire transit video collection to those who do this as well. ! ( send me that door )
I have been busy shooting videos of this marching drum section i work with out here &
Before this drifts too far " off topic " you can see my site under { jmada1970@yahoo.com}.. go to my drum & bugle corps. section JMADA etc..
{ http://photos.yahoo.com/jmada1970 }
my electric transit photos are still on
{http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications }
I have been checking out the site to give my thanks to webmaster Mr. David Pirmann of which again & again I wish to THANK HIM 100% !! & thank those of you who enjoy the rail transit videos & I have recieved a lot of orders & good reviews & I thank you good folks for that!
Also I have joined the rail transit co. building the PASADENA BLUE LINE & the other organization called BLAG ( no blue line at grade in pasadena ca. ) when there is some time left then we march off to meetings etc.. continue to finish building the long beach 710 freeway extension & i run a yahoo club under that name as well !
guess when you are BUSY you dont have a lot of time to sit at your computer and do a lot of posting on Subtalk, but I hope I will not let you down somehow I am still around alive & strong, and still kicking !! ( thanks ) ...SalaamAllah
OK guys, we gotta get this kid a storm door ... I'll help pay for the trucking for it out there. :)
For just the cost of one hot meal, you can help the unfortunate folks in California to get their piece of a subway car and it costs a whole lot less than trucking an entire redbird. Reach deep in your pockets, for only you can help make this dream real. Heh.
I have a friend up in Saratoga who is really big into drum and bugle corps stuff ... I'll send him to your site.
right on ( thanks ) send me a link to my E mail !!!
Love that # 7 flushing line !! its the BOMB !! ......the #2 is my next choice !!! ( all redbirds ) !!!!!!!!
NO! The #2 has R-142s MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
ok wise guy send me some pictures of this Mr Oink !! or e mail me with the url & or pictures
PROVE THAT THE # 2 LINE IS ALL 142 s ALL OF THE TIME !!! ( thats all you have to do ) !!!!
fair enough sir ?????
I didn't say it was all R-142s. I just said it has some R-142s. You said it was all Redbirds. This is untrue.
i guess i am going to have to reccomend to you a nice cold beer !!! you did not post something like the # 2 is all 142s ??
last november when i shot the # 2 day & nignt from flatbush to the end of the line it was ALL REDBIRDS back then !!!
So!! this is march 2001 & now a FEW 142s show up !! All you had to do sir was say that SOME R-142s run on the #2 !!!
after all you live in new york city dont you ??
no salaam your wrong want proff see the post below.
salaam's post
Re: Some subway problems today (202535)
Re: Some subway problems today (202535)
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Re: Some subway problems today
Posted by los angeles rail system (salaamallah) on Wed Mar 7 03:52:35 2001, in response to Some subway problems today, posted by John on Sat Mar 3 21:26:58 2001.
wow ! i cannot believe how LONG this series of threads is starting with this post !! I am still looking for some shots of the
Mexico City Mexico ( subway-cars ) & how they look the Los Angeles RED LINE subway cars are soooooo.... dull & boring !!!
Geeeeeeeezzzzzz!!!
Love that # 7 flushing line !! its the BOMB !! ......the #2 is my next choice !!! ( all redbirds ) !!!!!!!!
Responses
Re: Some subway problems today - SelkirkTMO - Wed Mar 7 04:04:07 2001
Re: Some subway problems today- SelkirkTMO - los angeles rail system (salaamallah) - Wed Mar 7 08:52:28 2001
Re: Some subway problems today- SelkirkTMO - SelkirkTMO - Wed Mar 7 17:48:54 2001
Re: Some subway problems today- SelkirkTMO - los angeles rail system (salaamallah) - Thu Mar 8 00:39:28 2001
Re: Some subway problems today - Pork: The Other White Meat - Wed Mar 7 12:51:49 2001
Re: Some subway problems today PORK THE OTHER WHITE MEAT - los angeles rail system (salaamallah) - Thu Mar 8 08:18:03 2001
Re: Some subway problems today LA RAIL SYSTEM (salaamallah) - Pork: The Other White Meat - Thu Mar 8 20:58:25 2001
Re: Some subway problems today PORK THE OTHER WHITE MEAT... - los angeles rail system (salaamallah) - Fri Mar 9 02:46:18 2001
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pork's post
Re: Some subway problems today (202655)
Re: Some subway problems today (202655)
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Re: Some subway problems today
Posted by Pork: The Other White Meat on Wed Mar 7 12:51:49 2001, in response to Re: Some subway problems today, posted by los angeles rail system (salaamallah) on Wed Mar 7 03:52:35 2001.
Love that # 7 flushing line !! its the BOMB !! ......the #2 is my next choice !!! ( all redbirds ) !!!!!!!!
NO! The #2 has R-142s MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Responses
Re: Some subway problems today PORK THE OTHER WHITE MEAT - los angeles rail system (salaamallah) - Thu Mar 8 08:18:03 2001
Re: Some subway problems today LA RAIL SYSTEM (salaamallah) - Pork: The Other White Meat - Thu Mar 8 20:58:25 2001
Re: Some subway problems today PORK THE OTHER WHITE MEAT... - los angeles rail system (salaamallah) - Fri Mar 9 02:46:18 2001
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salaam's other post
Re: Some subway problems today PORK THE OTHER WHITE MEAT (202974)
Re: Some subway problems today PORK THE OTHER WHITE MEAT (202974)
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Re: Some subway problems today PORK THE OTHER WHITE MEAT
Posted by los angeles rail system (salaamallah) on Thu Mar 8 08:18:03 2001, in response to Re: Some subway problems today, posted by Pork: The Other White Meat on Wed Mar 7 12:51:49 2001.
ok wise guy send me some pictures of this Mr Oink !! or e mail me with the url & or pictures
PROVE THAT THE # 2 LINE IS ALL 142 s ALL OF THE TIME !!! ( thats all you have to do ) !!!!
fair enough sir ?????
Responses
Re: Some subway problems today LA RAIL SYSTEM (salaamallah) - Pork: The Other White Meat - Thu Mar 8 20:58:25 2001
Re: Some subway problems today PORK THE OTHER WHITE MEAT... - los angeles rail system (salaamallah) - Fri Mar 9 02:46:18 2001
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YOU POSTED YOUR PASSWORD!!!!
Yep ... you need to change it ...
opps thanks pork
>>> YOU POSTED YOUR PASSWORD!!!! <<<
It seems like a private e-mail would have been a better way of providing this information. This just alerts the whole board that the password is available.
Tom
It makes it more pressing for him to change it.
And I don't use that password for anything but subtalk any way due to the fact that I can't turn off it being saved and post from shared computers. There is not much harm anyone can due with a subtalk password anyway.
>>> There is not much harm anyone can due with a subtalk password anyway. <<<
Except post inflammatory and salacious material in your name, giving other Sub Talkers an incorrect opinion of the type of person you are.
Tom
Then I can state that it was not and the post will be deleted with hours compared to other sites that I use that is more or less harmless.
There is not much harm anyone can due with a subtalk password anyway.
Actually, back before SubTalk used passwords there were several cases where people posted using someone else's handle... I was not one of the victims but there were several people who had a great deal of trouble from these malicious posts... that's one reason the passwords were implemented.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, with your password, they can change your password into something else so you can't even access the change password page and get it changed. If that happenes, you'll have to wait for Mr. Pirmann to get to you and you'll need some ID.
If you haven't changed your e-mail address since you signed up, you can request the password.
The only way to change the registered e-mail is to contact Dave.
I have the plan describing the following plans WMATA has in the event of a major snowfall. It has the following information:
Definition of the "service levels"
Preparations for getting ready
Where trains will operate
Where icing/scraping will occur
Train Frequencies
Restoration Activites
"Early Out" Service Plan
Identified Problem Areas/Bus Diversions
MetroBus routes serving MetroRail Stations
If you wish to view it, please e-mail me at oren@orenstransitpage.com or post a reply (preferibly e-mail).
Once you have it, in order to know what service level they are operating under, you need to check Metro's website at http://www.wmata.com.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
http://www.orenstransitpage.com
Around 1956 or 1957 when I was living in Brownsville,I recall a work train plunging to the street where the layup track ended on the el structure approaching Sutter Avenue from the tunnel portal.One car fell nose first onto E.98th Street and remained there for a few days.I believe one crewman was killed.I have never seen this accident referred to in print and I wonder if anyone can enlighten me on this.Needless to say it was a bizarre scene to pass on the way to school at PS189.
It probably never got mentioned simply because it was a work train.
There was another very similar one on the Pelham line around Zerega Avenue, about the same time (August 29, 1957). I don't know the exact circumstances, but one train hit another, and a couple R-17's went over the side into the street. The cars involved were 6673 and 6786. They were actually damaged enough to be scrapped!
How was the IRT car assignment between 1982-1991 while the R26,28,29,33ML,33S,36ML,36WF were all being rebuilt?
That's a BIG Question!
The best thing to remember about IRT car assignments in the pre R-62/62A era is 1) they were for the most part brokrn down by type of electrical equipment, and 2) there was no effort to keep the different types of cars separate in train consists.
As a start, let me give you the outline of assignments for January 10, 1983:
#1: WH R-15, WH R-21, WH R-22, WH R-29
#2: GE R-15, WH R-15, GE R-22, GE R-26, GE R-28, GE R-29
#3: GE R-14, WH R-14, WH R-22, WH WF R-36, WH R-36
#4: GE R-17, WH R-17, GE R-21, WH R-21, GE R-33
#5: GE R-21, GE R-22, GE R-33
#6: WH R-17, WH R-26, WH R-28, WH R-29, WH R-33
#7: WH WF R-33, WH WF R-36, GE WF R-36
S: GE R-17
There were many, many changes in subsequent years, far too many to list in one posting. But this should give you an IDEA how things were in the "old days".
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
For what it's worth, the IRT was pretty standardized in "detailed technical specifications" as far as bids went. Wasn't so hard mixing and matching cars compared to the "shotgun wedding" of BMT/IND ... that comment oughta be worth a few points from the southBK crowd here given that I was an IND homey ... But I still want to see someone hook up a 33 and a gate car and get anything beyond whining. :)
If you ever want to enjoy a turdhunt, checkout the variations in car couplers over the years. Given the depth that Webmaster Dave goes through with this WONDERFUL site ... there's an angle nobody's had fun with ... it'd make for "reality teevee" for us old-timers ... "Make the consist" with all original equipment, no adaptors, that'd be cheating. Heh.
Sounds like you might be part of that old splinter group that thought the R-10 might have turned out to be a half decent car if they had used Van Dorn's!
Heh. Ya never know. I'm just surprised that the Coney Island boys never mounted a jet engine on the roof to see how fast they could go. The car shop guys are known for their enjoyment of doing weird things to cars just to see "what if?"
Man, I would have loved to see just how fast an R-10 with a jet engine could go up CPW! Not that they needed much help.:-)
And I'm sure everyone would have been complaining about all the noise it would have made blasting past 81st Street :)
As if those cars didn't make enough noise already.:-)
True, but at likely speeds in excess of 125 MPH, it'd be over in a flash and chances are the wheels would have been above the rails resulting in a quieter blastby ... but that run was the next best thing to having a rocket mounted on top.
Funny though over all those years the continuing (and failed) attempts at noise abatements for the local platforms. I'm actually surprised they didn't consider just putting up cinder block between the pillars at the stations to kill the noise there. An evacuation of a stranded express could still be done since you make the geese walk the plank to the platforms at the ends where the tunnel steps are anyway - a wall wouldn't have precluded an evacuation if it only extended a pillar or two past the ends of the platforms.
Well, the 7 was treated with respect. They had the newest material. Is there a site that leads to past car assignments and changes?
By the time I became a regular rider in late 1985/early 1986, the R21, R22 and R17's were almost all relegated to the #3 and #5 lines. I never had the opportunity to ride R14's or the R15. I absolutley hated these cars, because (unknown to me at the time) they were neglected because they were soon to be scrapped.
The R-12s and R-14s were scaled-down R-10s, basically. Unlike the R-10s, they were much quieter (go figure) and had electric door engines while retaining the exterior trigger boxes. They also never ran in solid trains on the mainlines.
How was the IND/BMT car assignment between 1985-1995 when the R30,32,38,40M,40S,44,46, were being rebuilt?
R-30???
During the early part, 85-89, lots of R-10s. It was their swan song.
Peace,
ANDEE
After the R46's truck problems were fixed (around 1982), the R10 was relegated to the C line almost exclusively.
On the B-Division there have been all kinds of variations and it's even more complicated. Assignments were generally not determined by type of equipment, but there WAS a concerted effort to keep the various types of cars together in one train consist. There are also far fewer maintenance bases than routes, resulting in a lot of fleet sharing. This practice probably continues unchanged, but again for an EXAMPLE, let's examine the car assignments of May 16, 1985:
A (207/Pitkin): R-38, R-44
AA/B (Coney Island/174): R-40, R-42
CC (Concourse/Pitkin/Rock Pk): R-10, R-38
D (Concourse/Coney Island/Brighton Bch): R-32, R-40M/42
E (Jamaica): R-46
F (Jamaica): R-46
GG (Jamaica): R-32
JFK (Jamaica/Howard Bch): R-46
J (E NY): R-16, R-27/30, R-42
LL (E NY, Rockaway Pkwy): R-27/30, R-42
M/QB (Coney Island/Metro Ave): R-27/30, R-42
N (Coney Island/Jamaica): R-32, R-46
RR (36 St./Coney Island): R-27/30, R-32, R-42
SS (Prospect Pk): R-27/30
A few ground rules:
R-27s and R-30s were mixed at random and indiscriminately, being arranged in "semi-permanent" pairs.
R-40Mod and R-42s were mixed in consists on the D line.
At this time the Car Appearance Program was in its beginning stages, so certain cars were in the process of being broken out of the general fleet to be "clean" while car cleaners were phased in at various terminals. As such, there were by this time several trains of "Green" R-10s running on the CC, and there was some segmentation with the R-46s: cab cars 500-722 were being used on the E. Also R-46s 1201-1246 (basically) were dedicated to the JFK Express (aka "The Bird").
The B-Division, at least since the Chrystie St. opening in 1967, has been rife with equipment swapping as well, so it has always been possible to find other lines' cars on any given route at any given time. Some exceptions on May 16, 1985:
R-27/30s or R-40M mixed with 42s on the AA/B.
R-27/30s on the D.
R-32s on the J.
R-16s, R-40M/42 or R-32 on the LL.
R-32 or R-40M/42 on the M/QB.
R-27/30 on the N.
Don't know if this muddies or clarifies things.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Just to clarify the earlier posting a little, the locations shown were not all operating carbarns, some lay-up yards are shown as well.
Maintenance bases were 207 Street, Coney Island, Concourse, Jamaica, East New York and Pitkin. The remaining locations (174, Rockaway Park, Brighton Beach, Rockaway Pkwy, Metropolitan Ave., 36th Street, Prospect Park) were lay-up facilities only, though there could be some light corrective work performed if necessary.
In earlier times, trains were also laid up in off-peak hours on various express tracks and anywhere else there was room. This practice was discontinued around 1983.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Again, any website that shows this and more?
The practice of laying up trains on unused center express tracks continued long after 1983. J trains were stored east of Queens Blvd until 4/85 on the remaining tracks that were left east of the old Supthin Blvd. station. The Astoria express track stored R and B trains almost for it's entire length during the north Manny B closure of 86-88. The middle track at 111th St. is still used today to store J trains.
The practice of express track lay ups continued past 1983. The West End Line laid up R16 and R27 MUs signaled for the "M" line as late as 1988 on the center track.
The cars that were overhauled in the 1980's were not done all at once. It took 8 years to completely overhaul every car from the R30 to the R46.
The first overhauled cars that showed up were the R30 "redbirds" in 1985, on the J. These replaced the R16's, which went to the M. Most of the R32/40/42 cars went through a mini-overhaul in 1987, which basically meant that the grafitti was removed and the broken components (lights/doors/signs) were fixed.
The first of what we see today as the totally overhauled (GOH) cars were the R38's on the A, in 1987. I can still remember seeing a set of them pull into 42nd St. in the spring of 1987, and my utter shock at their almost new appearance (I fitst thought they "were" new cars). The GOH R40 slants first appeared on the B line in September 1987, the GOH R32's first appearing on the R in October of the same year. The GOH R42 first appeared on the J in March of 1988.
The first 10 car MU set of slant R40s from Sumitomo was in 12/87. I was at the ceremony at Whitehall Street BMT with David L. Gunn.
One point of note is that the slant R-40's were dispersed around the southern div at this time, appearing on the and eventually and .
Since he asked for 1985-1995, I can bring it up to then.
Shortly afterwards, the 6 Av. side of the bridge closed, and the R-68's started coming in. The BMT Southern kept the 32's and slant 40's, (which began being rebuilt) while the IND and the BMT eastern Div. kept the 40m/42's. The Concourse yard also kept 3 R-32 trains for some reason. 30's were on both BMT and the 6th Av. (and later spread to the )
When the 68's came in they went to the and eventually and (when it switched north terminals and yard assignments/equipment with the )
The 16's were retired. The first R-68A went into service on the to 34th.
When the bridge switched sides into the present arrangement, the 42's returned to the BMT southern briefly until they went out to be rebuilt, and then returned completely to the eastern div. The got all 200 68A's, and the lowest 68's and the was eventually all 68's, as the remaining 32's were pushed off the Brighton. The had all the rebuilt R-40's, but some would appear on the and
Eventually, the 10's and 30's were retired, and 32's, now rebuilt also, went to the and a group of slant 40's to the . Somewhere along the line, 46's filled the and, and the 32's on those lines went to the . During all this time, the Franklin shuttle had gotten 32's, then the 2 car R-68 arrangement.
This is the way it was until 1995, when the 68A's were pulled off the, which became all 68's, and bounced around between the and
I just checked the MTA website. Since the plans are all set, you'd think the MTA would have all kinds of information sitting offline, then get it up on the website when trouble looms. Nothing there.
That picture on the home page should be replaced with a winter emergency statement. You should be able to find out what will be running under the current forecast conditions, and other advisories.
Look for something somewhere after 12 noon today ... Rudy gets a bit cranky when agencies upstage him ... just look at the tantrum he threw when the Pork Authority dared to dis the boy by plowing their own territory before submitting to his majesty for further instructions. :)
Winter operations plan for the NYCT Dept. of Subways is about 200 pages of text. Most of it is 'zone specific', indicating what trains lay up where and what crews report to them. About 50 - 60 pages do contain the actual storm fighting plan including the deployment of trains with scraper shoes, de-icer cars, rail polisher trains and jet snow blowers. It also describes the establishment & manning of the emergency command center. Most of the plan would be of little interest to railfans and the PDF file that would contain the plan would be enormous. Those who are directly concerned with the 'Cold Weather plan have hard copies on their desks - relevent sections are highlighted.
WMATA put theirs on line during the last storm and I have it. While the actual plan is probably longer, the one I have is 35 pages (but the last 15 are virtually meaningless to me).
E-mail me if you want me to send it to you.
Winter operations plan for the NYCT Dept. of Subways is about 200 pages of text. Most of it is 'zone specific', indicating what trains lay up where and what crews report to them. About 50 - 60 pages do contain the actual storm fighting plan including the deployment of trains with scraper shoes, de-icer cars, rail polisher trains and jet snow blowers. It also describes the establishment & manning of the emergency command center. Most of the plan would be of little interest to railfans and the PDF file that would contain the plan would be enormous. Those who are directly concerned with the 'Cold Weather plan have hard copies on their desks - relevent sections are highlighted.
Posting the actual plan would be overkill, but what about a short statement assuring the public that there IS a snow emergency plan?
Like someone for example who commutes from Flushing to Sunset Park, Brooklyn for example. How do they find out the 7 and N trains are running? I know I'd be annoyed if I had to walk 10 blocks in the snow to Main street and find out there's no train and head back.
Usually, when an entire line goes down, radio stations are informed quickly and get the word out.
So far newsradio has failed to inform me of subway disruptions when I've experienced them. Since this is a major storm hopefully they're coverage will be more accurate.
THERE IS A COLD WEATHER PLAN
PLAN IV IS IN EFFECT
For those who really need to know: Hang out by a CR or TO at 1100 and listen to their radio. This is the time that Control Center announces what plan will be ineffect for the following day.
(Winter operations plan for the NYCT Dept. of Subways is about 200 pages of text. Most of it is 'zone specific', indicating what trains lay up where and what crews report to them. About 50 - 60 pages do contain the actual storm fighting plan including the deployment of trains with scraper shoes, de-icer cars, rail polisher trains and jet snow blowers.)
That's the plan for keeping all trains running on a regular schedule. All I want to know is if the "F" will be running normally, will be a shuttle between Church and 4th Avenue, or will not be running at all.
THAT is the sort of information I want to see posted. Revised subway and bus schedules. The Brooklyn and Queens Catholic Schools have already cancelled for Monday and Tuesday. The Westchester Buses will shut down. Nothing yet from the TA on the radio, and in 1996 I heard nothing during the entire situation. If Newsradio88 is to blame, I'd at least like to be able to find out on the website.
Whether any 'outdoor' line operates will be dependent on the severity of the storm. I'd say that of the 5 major B division lines in Brooklyn (excluding the A/C lines), the F is most likely to remain in operation, second only to the R.
Snow emergency plan or real-time emergency updates aside... when is the MTA website going to:
1) mention the summer service changes; i.e. post a copy of or summarize the V and Q/W printed brochures?
2) have an updated map that acknowledges the presence of trains under 41 Ave between 21 St and Queens Plaza?
the much delayed spring all boro bike ride will begin tonight in front of my apartment house in sheepshead bay... at 10pm, i will distribute a waterproof copy of the itinerary to all participants... here is a general outline... from sheepshead bay, head into brighton beach, ride the boardwalk to seagate, ride back on mermaid ave to prove that coney island is safe, head back to sheepshead bay and pick up the belt parkway bike path at knapp street to flatbush ave, head south to the marine parkway bridge, wait a couple of hours for a van to take you over the bridge, head west to breezy point, return to 116th street where any surviving members of the group will decide what to do next...
again the meeting time is 10pm in front of my apartment house... at 10:15, the latest, i will give all the hardy souls taking the ride my best wishes for a safe trip, after which i will retire to my warm apartment, where i will laugh myself to sleep....
I'll be there....NOT
lol
Peace,
ANDEE
I was about to sign.......... till I realized
heypaul would not be a participant... which
defeated the purchase price of a ticket.
LOL
Do they still plow the bike paths on the Belt?
LOL.
Paul, why didn't you hold the trip YESTERDAY?!?!
I did 14.4 miles yesterday (with most of the trip home being UPHILL).
I propose the spring all boro bike ride be cancelled and we hold a R142 bashing at the Pelham and 239th Street Yards. We will peg snowballs at the R142s and R142As until the operator console's controls freeze.
Unfortunately, I can't attend. So I say Paul leads the 239th group and someone voluneteers to go to Pelham.
Anyone who hits a Redbird is sent home immediately.
The obvious intended meaning of this post escapes me, but then again I'm new here.
Speaking of bashing the R142's, I saw a set of them in the Flatbush Ave terminal when I walked in around 10:50am this morning, but they were "not in service" and promptly took off.
hey welcome aboard... glad to hear you speak of bashing the 142's... the train you saw was part of the mta's 7 year testing program of the 142's that was started about 6 months ago... it is hoped that in about 7 years they will gather enough information about the cars, so that they can properly rebuild the r110a's... once the r110 set it rebuilt, it will undergo a rigorous testing program of at least 10 years, during which time it is hoped that they will be able to figure out what to do with the current 142's...
I recall heypaul last fall gesturing towards
his bike parked (& quintuple padlocked) to a
tree & telling me he had "ridden his bike
all the way from sheepshead bay...to
Shore Line Trolley Museum in East Haven, CT"
for a moment there... I ACTUALLY BELIEVED HIM!!
carlos... i rode it all the way from the metronorth station in new haven...
hey guys, in another couple of minutes, bmtman will be heading for the boardwalk alone, as no one else has showed up for the bike ride tonight... i was hoping there would be at least one or two other people to ride with them... if i had any compassion for him, i would go along... however my total self absorption prevents me from doing that...
Biking up to Shore Line is nothing... I have an ex-girlfriend who does the AIDS Ride from Boston to New York. Of course, I personally haven't touched a bicycle in a decade or two...
Are you sure BMTman was headed for the Boardwalk? If he's left unsupervised, he's probably gravitating toward Franklin Avenue...
Even Worst.
Might have ended up at Flatbush Ave Subway Station. And I think BMTman might just take the 2 Train to Fulton St then take the A Train to Broad Channel then take the Rockaway Park Shuttle to B 116ST. To just cheat the Bike tour.
Dominick Bermudez.
Hey, stop giving me ideas.
:-)
I turned back when a mini-tidal wave almost threw me off the bike...;-)
It was all heypaul's idea in the first place.
BMTman
Is there a track connection between the two branches of the Red Line? (In other words, can a train from Wilshire/Western operate directly to North Hollywood without changing directions at Wilshire/Vermont?)
No. It is simply diverging route just west of the Vermont Avenue station. No third leg of the wye there. Never will be either because of the buildings in the area.
The 7:05 to Penn Station
(c) 2001 Mike Brotzman
Please Comment and Enjoy
Fred Jensen had achieved the perfect life. When he was a kid he had studied hard in school, was accepted to and worked his way through a top liberal arts college and then went to work for a large Fortune 500 company as something little better than an intern. The work was hard and the pay was low, but he made the right moves and kissed the right asses so by the time he was 29 he was well on his way up the corporate ladder. By the time he was 33 had moved out of his two room, forth floor walkup apartment in Brooklyn, married the girl of dreams and taken up residence in the picturesque Long Island suburb of Selden. Now he was 39, he had 2 wonderful kids, a dog, a Lincoln sedan and big Ford SUV, a grass covered back yard complete with a pool and everyday Fred would take the Long Island Rail Road to commute to his job in downtown Manhattan.
Fred loved to take the train. Every morning he would catch the 7:05 train to Penn Station and it would whisk him on a one-seat journey all the way to Midtown. He preferred to catch the train at Ronkonkoma where it originated so that he could find a comfortable and enjoy a one seat ride as the electric cars glided through the green Long Island landscape towards the towering city, Fred would use the down time to review the day's work, read the "Times" or just catch up on some much needed sleep.
The day downed much like any typical Tuesday would. Fred got up and hurried about his early morning activities. Everything in Fred's life was scheduled down to the minute and there would be hell to pay if he was ever forced to deviate from his self-assigned list of tasks. Fred didn't feel like he had become a robot or that he had a rod up his ass. Careful planning and timing was just being smart. If he arrived at the train station too late all the good parking spaces would be filled by all the other commuters who couldn't go without a one-seat ride. If he missed his parking spot he'd have to walk farther, then he might miss the train, then he might have to push back meetings, then he might miss lunch, then he might miss his train home and finally he'd miss out on some much loved quality time with the kids and wife.
Today Fred was on time and he got his usual parking spot. He caught the train as it stood at the platform C and took his "assigned" window seat in the last car. Fred wasn't the only person on Long Island with a routine. Every day the same people would catch the same train and take the same seats. They never talked or spoke to each other, they never made eye contact and they always made sure never to notice what any other passenger was doing. Even if a passenger were crammed in the middle of a three seater, he would wrap his newspaper around his head like a protective shell and achieve utter indifference.
As the train rocketed through Mineola, Fred saw a strange movement in the reflection on the window. Fighting his urge just to ignore it, Fred put down his newspaper and looked across the car. There, perched on the little rack for carry on luggage and small parcels was a pigeon. Fred stared at it for a moment wondering how on Earth it had managed to get on the train and for that matter, why? This would definitely require him to write a letter of complaint to the MTA. Pigeons were unsanitary vermin and had no place on a commuter train. Sure he would expect this kind of filth on the Subway, and he seen many pigeons on subway trains when he had resided in the city, but now he lived in Long Island, things were supposed to be better. Forgetting about the bird Fred began to wonder why he had paid so much money for his new house, why the Rangers were tanking and why the PA had to raise bridge tolls.
Fred was only brought back to reality when he noticed that his train was pulling into track 18 at Penn Station on time at 8:19. Making sure to avoid eye contact he gathered his things and waited as the mob of people pushed slowly towards the exit. Being one of the last people out as he happened to turn back for a second he saw that same pigeon fly out of the train and off somewhere into the cavernous depth of Penn Station. This struck Fred as mildly amusing and he filed the incident under "Anecdotes to Tell Co-Workers at Lunch".
Fifteen minutes later Fred was flabbergasted again when a saw a mouse boarding his (2) train just after he had gotten on at 34th St. He wondered if this was like "Try Transit" day or something. He tried to decide if animals using public transportation was a good thing, but reached the conclusion that it probably wasn't because they didn't have to pay a fare, thus forcing the cost burden to human riders like himself. Oh, and then of course there was the whole public health issue.
Fred was not very surprised when he saw the mouse get off at Chambers St. He secretly hoped the mouse was transferring to a (1) or (9) to South Ferry so it could then jump into the Hudson or at least take the ferry to Staten Island. A few minutes later Fred was walking out of the Wall St. station, now armed with two funny anecdotes to tell his co-workers.
The workday passed quickly, his co-workers laughed at both of his stories, his subway ride back to Penn Station was rodent free and he caught his 5:22 train to Ronkonkoma and best of all it arrived on time. He arrived home to a nice hot meal, retold his stories to his family, played Quake with the kids over his household LAN, but was surprised when he found he barely had the energy to watch NYPD Blue with his wife. His average day must have taken more out of him than he thought. He kissed his lovely wife goodnight and turned in early.
Fred awoke the next morning still groggy and tired, but he was startled wide-awake when he discovered he had lost another 10 pounds over the course of the week. Fred was very impressed with how well his new diet was working. At this rate he figured he'd be able to start eating all his favourite foods again by the next Friday. The next discovery didn't go over quite as well. As Fred began to shave he noticed that his hair was beginning to take on a shade gray. It wasn't just the hair on his head, but all over his body. Even more strange were the bits of fuzz he pulled off the back of his neck. They looked a bit like something that would come out of a pillow. Fred made a note in his Palm Pilot to see a dermatologist and then realized that his bodily inspection had made him 3 minutes late. He rushed out of the house and drove to the train station only to find his usual spot taken and the next available option some quarter mile away. Fred would have missed his train had it not been for the fact that he was a pretty quick runner and he was able to jam his hand in the door before the closed all the way. Once aboard he sunk into his window seat and fell asleep, completely exausted.
He awoke to find the conductor poking him with a short yellow stick. Grabbing his things he rushed out of the coach, not wanting to be late for work. Once on the Subway he felt increasingly uncomfortable, he itched all over and he felt rather hot. After he got up to his office Frank dumped his stiff in his office and, passing up an urge to stop it at the water cooler, ran into the bathroom. His face looked rather gray despite the fact he was overheating and upon opening his shirt he found that the odd fuzz was covering his whole chest and though he felt like he was burning up, but there was no sweat anywhere on his body. Suddenly Fred was gripped by an acute pain in his gut and he lurched to the toilet to forcibly expel what had been his breakfast.
As he washed his mouth out in the sink Fred realized that this was obviously something much more serious than a simple skin condition and he was definitely going to have to see his doctor as soon as possible. When Fred got back to his office he put off an important conference call in order to set up a late appointment. Now that his crisis had been sufficiently dealt with Fred dove right back into his work. After all, they had just gotten 5 new accounts and this wasn't the time to be a lazybones.
Two conference calls, five e-mails, three meetings and four reports later Fred pulled himself away from his work. His stomach was angry that it had been so suddenly evacuated and it was demanding that Fred consume the lunch his wonderful wife had packed. As Fred reached for his briefcase to retrieve the lunch, he was shocked to see that his shirtsleeves now flopped down over his hand. He stood up and saw that none of his clothes fit right, they just hung off him like he had just come in from fasting. He found it hard to believe that any diet could be this effective.
Fred needed a drink and as he walked to the water cooler several co-workers noticed his rumpled appearance and gray complexion and suggested that he take the rest of the day off sick. Fred had never taken a sick day and he didn't feel like starting now. He filled his mug with cool, refreshing water and steadfastly walked back to his office. It was only after he his rolled up his sleeve for the umpteenth time that he noticed what was not growing on his forearm. He clenched his teeth and pulled, that had been just gray fuzz, out of his arm and held it up to the light. There was no mistaking it; in his hand was most definitely a small gray feather. He bent over the pulled up his pant leg and there he found not gray fuzz, but hard black and pink scales.
Model employee, hard worker, 5 new accounts or not this sent Fred into a panic. He grabbed his stuff, held his calls and canceled his remaining appointments. Three minutes later he was out the door and heading toward the subway station. It was just past three o'clock and things weren't very crowded yet, but as he ran down the stairway one of his shoes came off. As Fred fumbled to get it back on he saw three little claws poking out of his socks. Fred, his shoes not much better than slippers now, swiped his MetroCard and ran to catch the big red train that had just pulled into the station. He got on and plopped down on one of the hard bench seats hoping that nobody would notice him. Since New Yorkers generally couldn't care less about their fellow man, the only people who did see him were two children who had just gotten off from school. One look was all it took to persuade them to move to another car.
Fred staggered into Penn Station and almost fell down the stairs to the LIRR level. He was in luck, the 3:55 train to Ronkonkoma left in just a few minutes. Holding onto the handrail for dear life he fumbled down to the platform and into the train, falling headlong into his seat. Fred looked so bad that nobody would even sit near him and so he sat alone, face to the window, as wave after wave of pain coursed through his body.
It was right after the station stop at Hicksville that, one again Fred looked up at to the baggage rack in the coach. Once again he beheld a pigeon riding the rails to god knows where. It was in that instant that Fred realized what was happening to him and this realization only accelerated the changes that were already taking place.
Fred began to shrink rapidly. His legs began to suck into his torso and his shoes fell off. He tried to yell, to call for help, but he found himself unable to make any sounds. His arms retreated inside his shirt, his fingers melding into large feathers. His lips receded and his teeth pushed out and fused into a small beak and as he shrank, his body was fully engulfed in gray feathers. As his head shrank it pushed the human thoughts out if his mind, his memories, his personality. Wife, kids, house, car, commute, work all disappeared into nothingness. Finally, a small pigeon poked its head out of what had been Fred's sport jacket. It struggled free itself of the man made confines and winged its way up to the baggage rack. Nobody else in the car gave the slightest hint of noticing. As the pigeon perched on the rack one last bit of awareness passed through it as it saw the 15 or 20 other pigeons huddling in the rack, waiting for their stops. What had been Frank might have wondered where those other birds had come from, but he had lost the ability to wonder.
The announcement came over the PA for Ronkonkoma and the pigeon that had been Fred had a burning desire to get out of the train. Once the path was clear it flapped down and out of the doorway and into the early evening. For all intents and purposes, what came out of that train on that fateful winter evening was a pigeon. It felt it had to do what most other birds do, find something to eat, find a place to roost, find a mate, but it had one burning need that overrode all other concerns. That pigeon just HAD to be on the 7:05 train to Penn Station.
***********************************************************
A homeless, minority, immigrant awoke from his slumber in the last car and began making his way forward, looking for items that might have been left behind. He tried to ride the LIRR, it always provided him with a good haul and he enjoyed bringing down the property values in all the surrounding communities(*). Suddenly he looked down, unable to believe his eyes. For the second time that week someone had left all their things and a complete set of cloths behind on one of the seats. Carefully looking around to make sure the conductor wasn't lurking nearby, the man dumped all the items in his bag, smiling as he pulled the wallet from the still buttoned pants. He quickly left the train and headed towards the nearest bar as he perused the contents of the wallet. Tonite it looked as if a Mister Fred Jensen would be buying the drinks.
***********************************************************
WWW.NYTIMES.COM
METRO SECTION HEADLINES FOR MARCH 1, 2000 10:30PM
Mayor Calls for New Initiative to Deal with Growing Rat and Pigeon Problem.
Police Department Still Without Comment Regarding Rash of Disappearances.
Great story! Needed a good laugh before bed...
That's a VERRY FUNNY stroy you have there. Now only if that person just have a Gun just to shout that Pigeon and that Rat.
I HATE Rats and Pigeons.
Dominick Bermudez.
BRAVO, MORE, BRAVO!
avid
That pigeon just HAD to be on the 7:05 train to Penn Station.
Impossible. Even the most tolerant pigeon couldn't stand the 7:05 from Ronkonkoma to Penn, jammed full with all the suit-covered anuses.
For anyone in the NYC Metro area, New Jersey, and Long Island please update on the current conditions outside through the stormy next 48 hours.
Updates on what subway lines are running, bus lines, etc is also needed.
This storm is gonna be a doozy for the system to handle, especially on above ground lines.
So far it's taking awhile to get things started, with just some very light snow flurry activity so far in "what's a shovel" Sea Cliff.
Get out those R-40 snow plows.
I'm counting on those R-40's to clear out the Q line for me tomorrow morning.
Almost 11pm here in Sea Cliff. There was some sleet and rain earlier but now it's light snow and a coating.
Those el's must look pretty now, but by this time tomorrow it won't be too much fun at all.
Now it's freezing rain as of midnight. The phenomenal "blizzard" that was so hyped on Saturday has not arrived yet. They were scaring me so much Flushing seemed like a nice place to stay during the storm. At least there's stores, a subway, and people around. That's a lot better place to stay than "what's a shovel" Sea Cliff in the middle of a severe blizzard.
Of course I don't have the cash for a stay at the Sheraton there (probably expensive). It sure would've been cool to see the 7 line in the middle of a blizzard. And at least I would've been able to get some chinese food (last time I walked 15 minutes to get some chinese food some village official scalded me for walking in a snowstorm).
Well I can't afford a stay at Sheraton during the blizzard so forget about this fantasy. :-(
But at least it won't pack a severe punch, but things could still get nasty around here later Monday into Tuesday.
>>> Of course I don't have the cash for a stay at the Sheraton there (probably expensive). It sure would've been cool to see the 7 line in the middle of a blizzard <<<
But you could afford to railfan through the night on the #7 train (and others), and possibly get an appreciation of why you see homeless people on the subway. :-)
Tom
As long as the 7 runs. Anyways it is very icy out there now, the road and sidewalks are a sheet of ice. As usual there is no salt or sand on the street here in Sea Cliff. They really do a lousy job with road sanding here.
We've been getting alot of sleet and freezing rain with a biting east wind. It's so slippery out there when I went to put the garbage out I had to hold onto anything I could.
Well time to get some sleep now, I'm afraid what I'll wake up to tomorrow. :-(
Well so far it's been a "dud". It is icy and slushy out there with less than an inch of snow on the ground. Schools are closed, but roads appear OK. We are still getting sleet and freezing rain.
I do plan on attempting to catch the bus to the store to get some things at around noontime.
Once the coastal low really gets going by later today, heavy snow and blizzard conditions should develop. All transit looks fine right about now. Fox 5 was at Hempstead and showed LIRR and LI Bus running properly.
Well, up here in Albany we've already collected 6 of our expected 42 inches ... that's right, they're forecasting 42 inches by tomorrow night around here. And that's on top of the ten or so that was already there from 36 hours of lake effect snow preceding this. Bottom line, ain't seen our lawn since early December.
Don't let the calm before the storm fool ya though, this puppy hasn't even started to wind up yet. The first low is off the DelMarVa now, the power center low is now moving across the great lakes and the wind has already started to turn up here. Let's see how wimpy this thing is at dinnertime when it finally starts to crank up. I'd say the five boroughs could still do about 15 when all is said and done.
WCBS is still calling for a foot or more for Connecticut and the north shore of LI.
Saw the latest ETA, it looks NJ may get less than expected, with probably around a foot. Interior parts of Connecticut and the eastern Hudson valley looks like ground zero for 1-2 feet of snow. The city and LI may luck out with less than a foot, but near the end of the storm on Tuesday LI could see a good dose of heavy snow which could heighten accumulations out east.
Tomorrow's commute will probably make today's look like a piece of cake. With R/S line way offshore, all precip will be heavy snow late tonight and Tuesday.
Especially east and northeast of NYC.
Wonder how the MNRR New Haven line will fare. Service might get interrupted as things get really bad there tonight.
It is still raining this afternoon. As I went out to Great Neck, all buses were running fine and had their usual ridership.
From what I saw in Great Neck LIRR was running ontime.
Some spots on hills and bridges are icy, and once the cold air comes in later it will get dicey.
Also there is some glazing on trees, so this rain is freezing into a layer of ice. BTW, what does LIRR and NYCT use to de-ice the tracks and switches.
When I was out side this Morning in Kew Gardens. Everything is running on time. Everybody have no school today. Last night. My teacher call me last night and she say that there is no school for Monday. Because I live in Queens and I go to Middle School in Westchester. The school is near by Metro North New Haven Line. Now on to the Public Transportion. Buses are Running on time when I took the Q10 and Q74 this morning. The Subway I am not shure because I did not took the Subway Today. Now Let's see how about Tommorow. That's when the MTA will come to the Channlenge with the snow storm 2001!!
Dominick Bermudez.
Maybe you should transfer to a better school, and maybe not have such a long commute.
That school is better for me. Those schools in NYC have Stupid teachers.
Dominick Bermudez.
That school is better for me.
But not for your writing skills.
Those schools in NYC have Stupid teachers.
As opposed to stupid students?
The school I go to is a Good school. The Teachers there are Nice and the Teachers there teach to inprove in everything also in Writing. Here's the adress.
97 Centre AVE
New Rochelle,NY 10801
OK.
Dominick Bermudez.
Last I checked, I'll be doing a few hours on WCBS Newsradio this evening.... probably 6-8pm. Through the magic of digital communications, I'll be doing so from my home in Boston. You can bet I'm not travelling to NYC in this mess! Chances are I'll be on tomorrow too, though I'm not sure exactly when.
Until then, no comments from me on the weather -- Craig Allen's doing a great job. All I can say is that tomorrow is the bigger problem day, as we've suspected all along.
Does WCBS have a live internet feed? Maybe I can tune in while waiting to hear WTOP announce "School is closed."
No. There are no stations owned by CBS/Infinity that have live Internet feeds. The CEO of the organization, Mel Karmazin, forbids it. (Let's not get into a discussion of why here... it's way off-topic!)
Then what exactly is WTOP? Are they merely an affiliate of CBS? I know we get their broadcasts at the top of the hour.
Yes, WTOP is an affiliate, but not owned by CBS/Infinity.
But their studios are near the Tenleytown Station (there! on topic!)
Not really. Last time I checked, they were at 3800 Idaho Avenue meaning either you walk a considerable distance from Tenleytown or you take the bus.
I don't think that makes any sense. Since by broadcasting on the internet one can only increase your listening base, which of course lets the station charge more for advertising, and make more money, while it costs a lot less to do a webcast than a regular broadcast.
light snow in my area
Now there is light snow, expect snow to become heavy as convection moves in off the ocean. The low is winding now, things should start getting messy in a few hours.
The city may not see a foot, more like 8-10 inches, as well as Nassau county. Suffolk will see around 6 - 8 inches.
But Connectucut could get a foot or more.
Also the north shore of LI may still get close to a foot. This one is so unpredictable, so we'll just have to wait and see what happens.
There were no Bee-Line buses running today Monday March 5, 2001 because of the so called bad weather. All of the schools in Westchester County were closed today. I was out driving in my car today at midday and the roads weren't all that bad. The roads finally got bad during the evening hours. Now many of the roads are treacherous.
BMTJeff
HI all, Baseball season is just around the corner and that means Fantasy Baseball time. If you into fantasy sports I just started up a league at the SANDBOX.com web site. It's free to play and lots of fun. The name of my league is
NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT LEAGUE
It's a private league that requires a password which is
MTA
This league has 2 spaces left so join quickly, if you know of someone you likes Fantasy Baseball please e-mail this posting to them.
While i was out of town for few days & i have received few email about what is Traffic Checker do? So here is the information about NYCT Traffic Checker
DUTIES OF THE JOB:
Work throughout the five boroughs of NYC
Picked shift (3 times a year) by Seniority
7 Days/week, 24 hours/day
2 consecutive RDOs
No guarantee of hours
All types of weather
Strict accounitability for the data
Travel via public transportation
Having to stand for 6 hours
Reporting to location on time
Communication with the Control Desk
Weekly assignment pick-up every wed & friday at 3pm & 5pm
MUST HAVE A DIGITAL WATCH THAT DISPLAYS HOURS, MINUTES AND SECONDS
TYPES OF WORK:
Count passengers that enter/exit the subway system
Count passengers on/off the bus/train
Count anything that moves passengers
TRAINING PROGRAM:
Three week training class (AM only)
First week of training paid at $5:15 per hour
Second and third weeks paid at full rate of $11.4875
Bus/Subway pass issued after 30 days of employment
Identification card issued for identification only
SHIFTS
OVERNIGHT/AM 2200-1200
AM/MID DAY 0400-1700
MID DAY/PM 1000-2300
PM/OVERNIGHT 1400-0600
PROBATIONARY PERIOD
6 months
Counseling
TWU Dues start immediately
Medical coverage begins after 6 months
BENEFITS
Paid Bi-weekly
5 sick days Beginning May 1
Paid Holidays 9 days after 30 days employed. Birthday after 1 year. Personal Day after 1 year. January to January
Death in family 1 day immediate family
Jury Duty 3 days $40.00 per day
Military Leave 4 hours per day for 22 days, per year
Paid vacation one day per month, maximum 10 days per year for first 3 years. After 3 years 4 weeks 20 days Effective January
BTW: I will receive a letter from NYCT to go back again in 2 or 3 weeks
Peace
David Justiniano
Thanx a million, David!!! -Peace Out, Thomas :)
It looks like this storm will not turn out to be the "Blizzard" that the forecasters were calling for earlier today and last night. The latest doppler radar shows that the precipitation is generally on the light side. There is a pocket which covers extreme eastern Pennsylvania where there is no precipitation and it looks like it is headed our way. The big storm that everyone was talking about is probably not going to happen. We will get snow but, it will be much less than they had originally thought. It probably won't be the on the scale of the crippling snowstorm that occured on December 30, 2000 but, it will cause some problems nonetheless. Keep posted and go to
or any other weather website for the latest information on this storm.
BMTJeff
>>>It looks like this storm will not turn out to be the "Blizzard" that the forecasters were calling for earlier today and last night.
BMT Jeff: I feel the same way - and thank goodness, too. I got an unusual call from relatives in the city last night sternly warning about a full two feet of snow due to hit NYC any hour. Since I'm upstate so you know what I was thinking (Say your prayers!!). But, so far, all I see are a few scattered flurries. But you never know how tomorrow will be...
-cordially,
turnstiles
turnstiles:
Where are you located just so I'll have an idea where you are?
BMTJeff
I just received this month's DVARP newsletter. The main story is NE Philadelphia's Roosevelt Boulevard Subway study results. It has the highest ridership projections of any mass transit line proposed in the country, after NY's 2nd Ave. full subway. There's a lot of info here. While DVARP's website doesn't release their newsletter to non-members on their website until 2 months after the issue has come out, I think it is only fair to share this info with people who don't live in the Philly area, and could not be expected to join. E-mail me if you would like the entire newsletter and I know that you don't live in the Philly area. If you do live near Philly, please join. The info in the newsletter more than makes up for the membership fee, which, of course, helps us all. Otherwise, sorry Isaac, or any other DVARP board member.
Wow, this must be interesting. Having been up to NE Philly several times while going to Drexel University, I think having a new line up there is a good idea. Expect an e-mail from me today.
I'm a DVARP member, but my newsletter hasn't shown up in my mailbox yet. Were their any highpoints that could be summed up in a few sentences, so I can have something to gnaw on while I eagerly await my own copy?
Mark
Before you get your hopes up, the line makes a lot of sense, but it is in dire need of political support. Unfortunately, it doesn't have any. SEPTA is putting its weight behind the Schuylkill Valley Metro, and is ready to spend up to $2 billion to make this happen. The most sensible option for the Blvd is a depressed center roadway with a subway in the median (a win-win for transit users, pedestrians and motorists - keep in mind the Blvd is the worst roadway for ped accidents in Phila these days). While costs haven't been established formally yet, this is sure to be a $1 billion project at least.
I would certainly like to see this happen, but the political realities are lined up against it. We have a Democratic mayor who didn't get a lot of voter support from the Northeast. His goal is blight elimination, not a big problem in the Northeast. Our governor is a Republican from Erie, about as far as one can get in Pennsylvania from Phila. Our state legislature is openly anti-Phila. The Blvd is a State highway. Who will run interference for this project?
The unfortunate part of all of this is that the potential for ridership is VERY high and the potential for the capture of new riders is also VERY high, if you believe the consultant's numbers (and there's no reason not to). This is a project which is crying out to be built. If we could only find an apostle...
I suppose we should do what we can then, contacting our elected officials. I was told by a DVARP boardmember that contacting our State representatives and senators is the most important thing. For those of you reading who are northeast Philadelphia residents, that means writing to:
Senator Christine Tartaglione
Senate Box 203002
Harrisburg, PA 17120-3002
and for my neighborhood:
Representative Mark B. Cohen
House Democratic Caucus
417 Main Capitol
Harrisburg, PA 17120-2020
I plan to write to city officials as well. If anyone out there is interested, email me, and I will send you a Microsoft Word document of my letter to which you can attach your own name and send in.
Any other suggestions?
By the way, why do you feel the trench railroad is the best option? Just curious.
Mark
The express bus option really doesn't do much to attract riders out of cars, and the 'express' buses won't really move very quickly if traffic is bogged down. Also, the bus patrons have to walk out to the center of the Blvd. Keep in mind the large number of ped accidents on this 12-lane monstrosity, which is as wide as 300 feet from outer curb to outer curb in some places. It isn't very ped friendly (and that's an understatement).
Light rail is much of the same. If it operates in the median, then riders must cross at least 6 lanes to get to a sidewalk or to transfer to a crossing route. If it must compete with traffic, imagine plopping it into the existing mix. Conventional traffic signals don't work so well today on the Blvd since clear-out phases, etc must be utilized, and long signal cycles (2 minutes plus) must be used (as opposed to most other intersections in Phila where 60 second cycles are in place). Again, the ped friendliness is gone, and the long cycles will disfavor anyone on foot.
The 'hybrid' light rail is also problematic. Where it isn't in the median, it uses the left-most outer drive lane, which is bound to cause problems with traffic as motorists will not respect trains. The restrictions on train length will cause the line to not work in the North Broad subway, since there is no real way to keep North Broad riders off the trains in favor of thru Blvd riders. This scheme is, to me, the most hairbrained and non-thought-through one. There is no real reason to propose this one!
Use of the New York Short Line (now CSX) R/W presumes that CSX is willing to give up some space for it, which is a fairly generous and unrealistic assumption. The line also moves out of the Blvd 'spine' corridor onto a less important location. Many of the non-commuting generators (stores, shopping centers, etc) get missed by this alignment (where a Blvd alignment gets one to the front doors of many of these). Also, the line runs through several residential areas, garnering more potential opposition and less opportunity for park/ride (and more objections to traffic increases, more bus intrusion, etc).
The 'ditch' solves several problems. The Blvd's often wide median is a natural for a depressed road/rail line, which will be buffered from residential areas (even those homes directly on the Blvd). The unnatural 12-lane setup goes away and with it the many ped and accident problems also disappear. Where the rail line has stations, cross street bus lines could pull up literally right to the doors of the station (or at least at the top of the stairways) and interchange riders, who would not have to cross even a single Blvd lane. And, perhaps most importantly, political support becomes easier - there is something for the long-suffering transit rider, the driver, the vulnerable pedestrian and the NIMBY's can't complain too much about something better than the existing situation being built too close to them.
I have heard that some rapid transit supporters hate the 'ditch' because of the depressed highway. While I don't personally advocate building new roadways, the need here is crying out for something. The Blvd is carrying higher volumes than some interstate highways and it's little more than a too-wide surface street. Besides, support for a transit-only solution will not win the day here. The 'ditch' makes the Northeast a more livable place and takes thousands of bus movements now heading from and to Frankford Terminal every day out of the mix. It will also, finally, help the Northeast connect with the rest of the city much more efficiently.
I'm sure this has been brought up before, but I can't find it on any of the archives to see if it has, so forgive me if I'm bringing up something that has been discussed before. But, what are those two lights on the sides of the Rohr cars? There is a blue light and an orange light. The blue light used to be on all the time, even when the train would sit in the station, but now there is this blinking orange light that goes on when the train is slowing down and stops when the doors have opened, and the blue light is off altogether. Between the lights in the middle of the car that change from green to orange when the train stops, the red light when the door is opening and these blue and orange lights on the sides of the train, it looks like a Christmas tree when it comes in.
Thanks
Someone asked about the orange lights and no one responded. I think they have to do with the braking.
The green and orange lights between the cars indicate if the braking is on (orange) or off (green). This is also shown on the operator's console.
The red lights on the side simply show if a door is open in a paticular car. The Rohrs used to have them above each doorway many years ago.
I asked about that when I was there on February 18 and was advised they are regenerative indicator lights.
This feature was added when the 1000s received AC propulsion.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
if the storm proves to be as bad as predicted there will a #7 railfan trip tomorrow... at sundown we will meet at times square and take the #7 express to flushing to observe the arcing contact shoes of the trusty redbird fleet... see the shoes light up long island city as the trains make their way across queens... if we are lucky, a particularly hot piece of contact shoe metal may fall down to the amtrak tracks right at the spot where the entire r142 fleet is being stored as they await conversion into staples at the former swingline staple factory... it will also be interesting to check with police department records to see if the falling pieces of hot metal put a crimp in the alleged increase in illicit activities under the #7 line...
as an added treat, i am working on getting jeff h and stephen bauman to participate in a symposium on board the train on some of the finer points of electromagnetic theory as well as an explanation of how relativistic quantum mechanics can be used to explain the lower than expected acceleration rates of recently purchased subway cars...
it will also be interesting to check with police department records to see if the falling pieces of hot metal put a crimp in the alleged increase in illicit activities under the #7 line...
Hot metal?? Couldn't that actually encourage such behavior?
I took my own fantrip on the Sea Beach tonight, hoping the cut would fill completely with snow, necessitating a Slant to go through and dig a tunnel for my R-32. Needless to say, I was disappointed.
It's quite icy out there right now, we seem to be getting alot of sleet.
You'd need a BMT standard for that. Oops, make that a Triplex.:-)
I wonder who opened the Fresca bottle - remember those 1967 Fresca commercials with the closing line: "Introducing the ice-cold frosty taste of Fresca. It's a blizzard."?
Oh no, another of my acquaintances has caught HPS :-( It's spreading faster then the swine flue
Mr t
Sounds like fun. Man, I wish I could get a room at the Sheraton LGA tonight. Because I have a feeling that once the snow comes, there will be no way to Flushing from "What's a shovel" Sea Cliff.
And if there was, once things got nasty in the evening I'd be stranded in Flushing. Any place in Flushing open all night?
Of course getting stranded with a few mystical girls might be just what I need right now. :-)
Some good Korean restaurants are 24 hours, but I'd assume they expect you to keep eating while you're there... then there are always the fine establishments under the 7 train where activities happen at night ;)
heypaul, do you plan to bring your gas grille along?
They'll be hungry mouths to feed with the storm circling like a vulture.
BMTman
This may have been discussed here before, so please clear up my memory.
T.S.S........stands for transportation station supervisor ??
ALSO.......
If a conductor, expierencing a very bad day points to the striped conductors position board with his or her middle finger, can they be written up by a supervisor? Technically they are still "pointing" to the board !!
Bill "Newkirk"
>>> If a conductor, expierencing a very bad day points to the striped conductors position board with his or her middle finger, can they be written up by a supervisor? <<<
It probably depends upon how high on the board the C/R is pointing, and whether the supervisor is standing in front of the board at the time. :-)
Tom
>>>T.S.S........stands for transportation station supervisor ?? <<<
No, TSS= Train Service Supervisor
Peace,
ANDEE
y'know, I am not very interested in arguing immigration, linguistic preferences, or much of the rest of that stuff. I am interested in talking rail based electrified transit.
Well currently the only problem transit is facing is this snow and ice. It's brutal out there (at least where I am). The road is like an ice skating rink.
I sure hope the T/O's and B/O's out there take it slow and steady.
Ice can sometimes be worse than snow, especially for buses.
I've made the decision, and there's no turning back. There's nothing you people can do to stop me. I'm a hypocrite and a sell-out.
I've been happily using public transportation as my sole means of transit for the past eight years, but I've made the decision to (gasp!) purchase an automobile sometime this spring.
Please, calm yourselves. I have my reasons, and I did not reach this decision lightly.
Starting in June I'll be taking some classes out in the plastic wastelands of DuPage County, and as much as I would like to be able to take public transit out there, it simply ain't happening. Taking public transit to get from here to College of DuPage would involve all three of Chicago's transit agencies, and the schedule would require me to take two full days off from work each week to take two classes. The money I'd be losing from each paycheck by doing that is over double what I'd be paying to own a car. Having a car will allow me to take night classes and still keep somewhat of a full-time work schedule. (But believe me, I'd much rather be using the money to continue my plans for world domination or even move into a larger apartment.)
I won't be ready to buy until around the first of June, and I'm looking to get a used, late-model sedan such as a Saturn SL or Toyota Corolla or possibly something a little larger.
As much as I rant and rave about this country's over-dependency upon automobiles, sometimes the car is still the only practical option for getting from Point A to Point B. Besides, if I end up moving to Philly next year to go to Drexel, a car will probably be a necessity. SEPTA is okay, but from what I know about Philly, having a car is the way to go. I guess this probably speaks more about the sad state of public transportation and urban planning in the US than anything else.
At least I won't be getting an SUV (as if I could afford one), and I still have no plans to set one foot inside the Naperville Wal-Mart store. Maybe I'll even be able to make it out to IRM and to my hometown of Cincinnati once in a while, now that I'll have a way to get there.
Stay tuned for further developments...
-- David
Chicago, IL
David: I know how you feel, buddy. I've been there...
In my case, I moved to Los Angeles and held out for about four years before I bought a car. I'm still a New Yorker at heart and absolutely HATE to drive. Each time I changed jobs, I had to move close to where I worked to avoid driving as much as possible. I bought a 995 Honda Civic, brand new, and have only logged 35,000 miles on it.
Unfortunately, Los Angeles is a city where having a car is a must. Los Angeles DEFINES urban sprawl. Furthmore, the hosility towards rapid transit, and the extreme NIMBY-ism of this city have more or less doomed any future transit projects.
I'd GLADLY take a subway to work if there was a line between my and my place of employment.
LA actually, according to some group, isn't even in the top 10 in urban sprawl. Jacksonville ranks first. I don't know where DC comes in but it was in the top 5.
You may be thinking about the Sierra Club's 1998 report, The Dark Side of the American Dream: The Costs and Consequences of Suburban Sprawl in which the top 30 cities with the worst sprawl problems are divided into categories based on size and ranked in order. A summary page is given for each location. In large cities with over 1 million on population, Atlanta ranked worst. (Chicago was #10.) Orlando was the worst of medium-sized cities, and McAllen, Texas was worst for small cities. Los Angeles gets a dishonorable mention, although the report acknowledges that LA pretty much invented sprawl. However, the report is dated 1998, so the information may have changed.
There's more up-to-date information about sprawl on the Sierra Club's main Challenge to Sprawl Campaign site.
-- David
Chicago, IL
How come Philadelphia is not on the list? Is it because that the suburban areas have mass transit well integrated into the area?
Well, with the work on 202, SEPTA has added quite a few rotues and extended the R5 to Thorndale. Philadelphia is one of the most transit dependent cities in the nation. Also, the regional rail system is pretty decent as well, and it's really fast to take it into the city than deal with teh traffic of the city and the Schulykill Expressway. Anyway, although I would love to have more bus routes in Bryn Mawr, the suburban transit it pretty decent. At least, it is in Deleware County.
Philadelphia has the highest number of people who walk to work of any city, including me, unless it's raining :)
L.A. may not have the worst urban sprawl, but they certainly are the most rapid-transit-phobic people immaginable. People will get that deer-in-the-headlights look if you so much as suggest they take a bus or the Metro Red Line or Blue Line. Many gloat that they have never been on a train or bus in their life. This is a city where people take their cars out to drive to the 7-11 a block away, and freak out when it rains.
MP: I know exactly what you mean. I've lived in California for going on 47 years and I love it out here. But I am perplexed and irritated that so many of my friends and neighbors abhor public transportation and cling to their cars like barnicles on a ship. Fortunately for me, I live only two miles from where I teach so a car is not a matter of life and death to me. But I will tell you this. Even at two miles, if I could catch a subway and ride four or five stations to work I would do it just for the thrill of it. Notice I didn't say convenience. That's because convenience goes without saying. We do have a green and blue line from the burbs to LA so it is a start but old habits die hard. Even with urban sprawl a good public rail system could work out here but people love their cars.
The Red and Blue Line goes to downtow, remember we rode it 2 1/2 months ago. The Green goes along the 105 from Norwalk to Redondo beach
If you're a sell-out, I wonder what I am.
I got my driver's license at 17, the earliest I could get it (I could have gotten it at 16, but I wouldn't have been able to use it) just like a typical suburban person.
I have had a car since day one (again, typical suburban person) even though I was always a railfan. Although this one isn't my fault. My father had purchased a new car, didn't get rid of the old car, and my mother doesn't drive, so I ended up getting the old car.
And the worst one of all:
I actually ENJOY driving the car.
Believe it or not, I actually enjoy driving, too, as long as I'm not: 1) Looking for a parking spot, 2) Stuck in traffic, or 3) Filling up at the gas pump. Unfortunately, being the city-dweller that I am, I'll probably end up spending considerable time doing each.
Hopefully I'll be able to make it outside the city every so often and do some driving out on the open road. That's probably the one thing I really do miss about having a car. Short-distance road trip options in this area are fairly scarce (unlike Boston or NYC, we don't have the beach or mountains nearby), but there's places like Lake Geneva, Madison, Milwaukee, the Fox River Valley, the Indiana Dunes, and of course IRM that each make for good day trips.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I couldn't enjoy driving in your area or any city, and the freeways or expressways are the worst.Too fast for the crowded conditions. I rented a car to get to IRM some time back, the only way I could really get there which sadly is exactly the situation you describe for yourself which does apply to a lot of people. So you have a lot of company even in the railfan community.
I rented and drove the car in and out of O'Hare , Edens Expwy. bad enough but around the airport..too much for this old man who's nervous anyway.
I hate to say most of even transit workers I knew in NYCity that could have taken a train or bus on their pass still drove; in a lot of cases because where they lived just didn't fit public transit to where they had to work. But some indeed still drove even when their home was on the same line they worked on.
""(unlike Boston or NYC, we don't have the beach""
Isn't Chicago off lake Michigan? Hence beach!
While there's little on this earth that compares to the pleasure of driving down Lake Shore Drive on a hot summer day with the windows down, I was thinking more in terms of a real beach on an actual ocean, such as Daytona, Coney Island, or the Outer Banks of North Carolina.
Besides, I can walk to Chicago's beaches anytime I want, since I only live two blocks from the lakefront. No need for a car to do that.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Don't consider yourself a sell-out or a failed railfan just because you're getting a car. As long as you avoid using the car for trips on which transit would be just as convenient, you can maintain your honor.
I too bought a car after a little over a year in Philadelphia. You're right about SEPTA. It has a lot of holes that need to be filled in, and I try to use the car for filling in those holes.
Don't feel like a sell-out. That's why Park n' Ride lots were invented. And if you do go to Drexel, it is one of the best transit-served place in the city.
Personally, I like driving and automobiles, but to take a machine that was born to fly free across Nevada highways and force it to endure the terror of city driving feels cruel to me.
Mark
I like what they call these lots in Washington, DC: "Kiss and Ride" lots.
People who use park-and ride lots should be commended. They COULD use their cars to drive all the way to their eventual destination, but they chose to use mass transit for the bulk of their trips.
"I like what they call these lots in Washington, DC: 'Kiss and Ride' lots."
Unless the usage is *totally* different in D.C. than the rest of the country, "kiss and ride" is not just a synonym for park-and-ride. It refers to a driveway or lot at a station where people can be picked up or dropped off by someone else but NOT park themselves; that is, someone has to be sitting in a car for it to legally be in the "kiss and ride" area. Presumably, the person doing the dropping-off and picking-up is the transit rider's spouse, S.O., or parent, hence the name. Kiss-and-ride can be in addition to or instead of park-and-ride.
There are some metered spaces in kiss-and-ride so that the person get get out and wait at the faregate bank.
This may stun you, but it IS possible to be a motorist AND a transit buff at the same time! A lot of NYC Subtalkers live in an outer borough or the 'burbs, so a car is needed to get to many places other than Manhattan.
When I attend transit forums and hearings, there's auto and motorist-bashing to the sky. I offered someone a lift to the Jamaica LIRR when one let out long after dark, and was immediately group-ostracized for even HAVING a car, let alone taking one to anything transit-related.
Conversely, CAR & TRAVEL, the AAA newsletter, uniformly pans any idea or suggestion that using public transportation might be preferable to private auto in some situations- especially whenever the issue of a portion of MTA Bridge & Tunnel tolls subsidizing mass transit comes up.
Too many people think strictly in black and white.
I aggree. We need BOTH our roads AND our public transit in this city. I'm both a subfan and a roadgeek myself, and I don't believe one invalidates the other. It is frustrating to see "Car and Travel" rip on anything favoring transit (or even SUGGESTING that a new stretch of rail be built when the money could be diverted to roads.) Apparently they weren't on the Long Island roads durring the LIRR strike! And public transit types can sometimes be just as bad.
Andrew
Actually, in the less densely populated areas of the suburbs and of newer sunbelt cities, integrating cars and transit makes a lot of sense. Lots of residential areas aren't densely populated to warrant transit lines running within a half-mile of everyone's house. But a few lines within a mile or two reachable by car from most anywhere in a metro area could cut a lot of thirty-mile commute drives into two mile drives, greatly reducing car use and pollution. Used this ways, cars can greatly expand the capabilities of tranist.
Like I said, that's why they invented park n' ride lots.
Mark
Based on the experience that my son has had, I highly reccomend the Toyota Corolla. He has a 5-spd. LE model that he bought in '98 and
has'nt had 1 problem with it!
Chuck Greene
I recommend an R-32.
Hey, I own a '72 VW Bug myself, but I find it more convenient to use SEPTA because of the congestion. I am planing to move to the suburbs myself. There is only one place I have in mind: Lindenwold, New Jersey. I have chosen that because (a), it has access to public transportation (PATCO, N.J. Transit's A.C. Line and N.J. Transit buses) and (b), how many suburban areas have subways? That is why The "Park-And-Ride" was invented.
Mh, mh, mh, and to think I really respected you. Why'd you pick a college in the boonies? Just kidding, I understand it's not you, it's the Man who made you do it.
[At least I won't be getting an SUV ....
Stay tuned for further developments.]
So, you'll be able to ride the rails just for fun .... and in the not too distant future you'll be a wagon master (station wagon) or driving that SUV with 6 screeming kids in the back ;-) You are on your way all right, definitely no turning back.
Mr t__:^)
I've been trying to improve my homepage with quicker download times and more photographs. It's still just a collection of images at the moment, but I hope to add text and other content later. New photos are from the Newark City Subway and Seashore Trolley Museum. I plan to research more about the cars there as soon as I get the time. If anyone hasn't seen it, I've got a photo of the SOAC train and (what I think is) an R-4. Check it out:
Keystone Pete's Trolley Photos
Very nice Newark shots, especially considering they were taken in February.
I'm still hoping for one last ride before the PCCs are pulled.
Very nice layout, I enjoyed them. Thanks for the link.
BTW, I had the privlidge of operating the Boston El car #5821 last year, and their "A train" did a trip that day too. Your shot of #5223 at Newark was the first I had seen of what the "Flat Car" looks like.
Guess the article & roster in Aporil '99 Railpace must have been wrong, as it's much more then a Flat Car. I attached a copy of your shot to my copy of the article.
Mr t__:^)
Friday evening I sent an e-mail to CTA's customer serive department about the incident on the Red Line. (The e-mail I sent was a slightly-edited carbon copy of my original SubTalk posting.) Here's the response I just recieved:
Thank you for your e-mail.
I appreciate you reporting this incident to us. The safety of CTA riders is of the utmost importance to us. I have forwarded your e-mail to Robert Takagi, General Manager of the Redline. In regards to our one- man service they are not new to Chicago's public transit system. The CTA has a long history of single person train operations. The Skokie Swift Yellow Line has operated one-man trains since the line went into service in 1964. The Midway Orange Line began servicing the Loop and Midway Airport in October of 1993. Since the line's inception, running single-person operated trains was
the standard procedure.
The Ravenswood Brown Line was converted to a one-man operation in February 1995. Years ago, in the early 1960s through 1985, the Evanston Purple Line trains were one-man operations.
In addition, most major North American and European rail transit systems function in all or part under this procedure. However, with the recent switch to one-man operations on the Green, Red and Purple Lines, there have been several concerns expressed about one-man train operations that we would like to address.
"One-man operations tend to be slower than traditional two-man operations." This is only temporary. Experience shows us that it takes rail operators a few weeks to adjust to the new procedures. This sometimes results in delays. These minor delays disappear after a few weeks. However, the total running time of the train trip may increase by about three minutes. (Riders of the Purple Line should keep in mind that since the Purple Line added four additional stops, their commutes may have been increased by about three minutes because of these new stops.)
"One-man operations have more accidents than two-man operations." A major study of one-man operations shows this procedure to be substantially safer than the traditional two-man mode. The CTA's public accident rate is one of the lowest in the country.
"One-man is less secure." With the switch to one-man operations, customers have voiced concerns over the perception of decreased security. To address those concerns, the CTA is implementing a new security initiative. A private security firm will be providing overnight customer and facility security at 122 CTA rail stations
that remain in operation between the hours of 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. Stationary security officers will be assigned at each of these 122 rail stations. Presently, there are other existing CTA security forces in place that monitor the rail lines, bus routes and non-passenger CTA facilities with roving security teams. The customer assistants will be equipped with two-way radios and will be dressed in uniforms so CTA customers can easily identify them as security officers. These officers will also provide some limited customer service responsibilities in connection with the new Transit Card system.
In addition, all rail cars that were formerly used in a two-man train operation will be fitted with an intercom system. With the intercom system in place, customers requiring assistance will be able to communicate with the rail operator immediately in case of an emergency.
Finally, the CTA has committed $40 million this year to improve our stations. All of these improvements are aimed at providing a cleaner, safer environment for our customers as they wait for their trains. Station improvements include painting, brighter lighting fixtures, benches, new garbage cans and customer attendant call buttons.
The CTA is committed to providing you with on-time, clean, safe and customer-friendly service. The adoption of one-man operations will improve our labor efficiency and save us approximately $13.8 million annually. These savings will then be reinvested into the system to improve our service.Thank you again for reporting this matter.
Sincerely,
Customer Service
The response to my OPTO concerns is basically a rehash of their press release from when conductors were first eliminated, but at least they're forwarding the incident in question to the general manager of the Red Line, which was my primary objective for writing.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Dave,
You got a form letter copy and paste, period. Nice try though.
So sincere.
I should go complain about the experience I had on the #10 bus but I am sure they will love to hear about something that happened 7 months ago and I will just get a letter from a template anyway.
Customer Service is so sincerce he can't sign his name, or even work ID # LOL
I'm 99% sure that the "forwarded to Mr. Takagi " bit is just the old fashioned customer service trick known as "passing the buck".
Keep a copy of the email and reply, if a Rachel Barton type incident occurs, you can give (or sell?) it as evidence to the plaintiff.
I've taken alot of flack for the "subway problems today" post and my feelings have taken a beating.
This is a forum where we should let people have freedom of speech, and those with different beliefs should not be personally attacked and called hurtful things like I have.
If this doesn't stop we all know where this will end, a possible suspension of Subtalk.
Lets keep the peace, otherwise I won't be involved here anymore as no one chooses their feelings to be hurt.
Peace...please :-)
There's a difference between 'different beliefs' and racists/bigots.
-Hank
Hopefully you will notice the two standards here. Your comments reflect freedom of speach and should be allowed. Others' comments to your comments are hurtful and shouldn't be.
Your best bet is to keep your thoughts about racial or ethnic groups to yourself, and spare the site what it went through over the weekend.
As the standard that yelling "FIRE" in a theater is not covered by the Freedom of Speech admenment to the Consititution, personal attacks on use of bigotry and slander are not covered as well.
Second this is a PRIVATE site so your freedom of speech does not apply.
Here's what's going onat Transfer Point, my web site.
First, all unanimated GIFs have been replaced with PNG files.
COURT ST. SHUTTLE
TRANSIT SOUNDS MILLENNIUM has replaced all WAV and MP3 files with OGG Vorbis files. The latest versions of Winamp and Sonique have support for this new format.
Also, there are some new sounds at TSM, including a trip on a train of R142A cars around the City Hall Loop, and some sounds of buses in the JFK Airport area.
Click here to go there.
R36 #9346
> has replaced all WAV and MP3 files with OGG Vorbis files.
What the hell is this proprietary crap? Is there some reason that a format like wav or mp3 which is nearly universally supported across operating systems (Win, Mac, Unix variants) needs to be replaced with something like this? Not OGG, UGH! Just say no.
-Dave
AMEN
Here's a link for those not already in the know about OGG.
Here's one for PNG
Here's one for MNG, a subset of PNG.
There are some sites that are getting rid of their GIFs in place of PNGs.
Remember, Transfer Point is my site, to do with however I wish. If I want to replace all animated GIFs with MNGs, I will. OGG is considered to be MP3's replacement.
The primary purpose for your web page is to bring information to people. If it wasn't, it would be on your hard drive instead of a web server.
I can create a webpage in Swahili if I want, but as long as I want to cater to English-speaking clientele, I wouldn't.
There is no reason for you to change the "language" of your files because you find them to be superior. You want your page available to most people.
I can write a web page in Esperanto. It's a superior language, but who knows it? Even if it is easier to learn and understand.
It would seem like yellow would more or less be the standard color for elevated structures in NYC. But I've noticed a handful of places where they're in other colors. The Flushing IRT is a unique concrete structure for its Queens Blvd section, then green when in turns onto Roosevelt Ave, then grey after arround Junction Blvd. Also, some of the IRTs in the Bronx are in grey, and the Broadway el is green in East New York. Do these colors mean anything? Did they distinguish IRT from BMT somehow or something? What colors are the other structures, specifically the Livonia IRT? The Bronx IRTs? The southern division BMTs?
:-) Andrew
Oh! And there's an odd red color for the IRT Flushing and BMT Corona line where they meet at Queensboro Plaza. North and south of there (north until Rawson on the 7) the structures are yellow.
:-) Andrew
The majority of the Bronx Els are grey, although the White Plains Road El, the A train El @ Rockaway Blvd, the Broadway (1/9) El (except at the 125th Street Station, where it is grey), the West End (B/M) Els and I think parts of the Jerome Av (4) El are brown. You have to ask someone else about the Livonia El. I think the Broadway (J/Z) El is green at ENY but brown the rest of the way. I rode there just last year. The Canarise Line (L) is mainly grey, except at ENY, I think.
(You know, the Atlantic Avenue (L) Station is very peculiar in that the two current platforms are so far apart that it seems like they are 1 block apart. I just wanna mention that.)
Anyway, the Els are mostly grey except for the White Plains (2) north of Bronx Park East, the West End (B/M), the Broadway (J/Z), the Jerome (4), The Brighton (D/Q), and the Broadway (1/9) Els. That is according to my knowledge.
CWalNYC (8^)
P.s. I know this because I ride most of them often enough to talk about them.
Wrong. The West End El was originally Brown and Black, within the last two years it has been repainted to green as part of the abatement of lead paint.
The Culver El is Green, originally Brown and Black
The Broadway BMT el is Green, originally Brown and Black.
The portion of the Liberty Avenue El structure (A train) that descends down then turns south towards the Rockaways is painted green.
Also, the Livonia Avenue El structure is kind of a brown/olive green paint job. Its definately in need of a paint job. There are rust spots all over it.
As far as the Broadway BMT El, I know back in the 1970s, it used to be painted green, along with the portion of the el over Jamaica Avenue.
Livonia El have "sections" that are painted, but for the most part it needs a paint job. The platforms at Atlantic Ave on the L are a block apart.
3TM
Is there a reason for the choice? In Philadelphia our el structure is a depressing pale blue. For my tastes, the best color to paint a stark steel strucutre is that orange-red that is used on the Golden Gate Bridge. It's about the only shade that really makes that kind of steel look cheerful. The big steel "stabile" sculptures of Alexander Calder (we have one in front of our art museum) also used that color, and they're always happy looking. I wish they'd repaint our els and the Ben Franklin Bridge in it.
Mark
The elevated structure pertaining to the 1/9 that runs over Broadway in Manhattan and the Bronx is dirt-colored. I don't know off-hand what the specific colors of the other elevated structures are.
Actually, you raise a good question about the origin of the colors. My initial guess is that was what they were painted before, and the previous color didn't cause complaints, so let's repaint it the same color.
The initial choice of color was probably not a very thoroughly researched decision. With bridges and overpasses, the paint scheme usually serves more to protect the steel and not cause a distraction to motorists, pedestrians, and residents, and less to be artistic.
But this is all speculation, and I pose the question if there really is a color scheme to the elevated structures, initially or now?
Matt-2Av
Back when I worked for the TA, I asked a supervisor why the el near where I lived was being painted Navy blue ... the answer? SURPLUS PAINT from the feds in insane lot sizes for cheap. I suspect the same policy still applies. Whatever paint they can get in boatloads as cheap as possible is what gets slapped up by the contractors when it's hide the rust time again ... betcha ...
This might be because Philly's els are the "Blue Line" in official lingo.
I like that The Frankford el is painted blue. It's much better than the old green paint and that god-awful red paint that is on The Market Street El (IMO, The Market Street El should have been painted blue).
Okay, maybe we should leave the el blue for line color code reasons. I think they could use a happier blue, though. But the Ben Franklin Bridge would sure look nice in orange-red. Since everyone's been asking how color decisions were made, the Goldern Gate actually got its color because the steel originally had a red protective coating. During construction, people came to like the color. I think the final color was actually put to a vote, and red won.
Mark
The Astoria el sub-structure is rust-brown. The stations are beige-painted aluminum screens with pink roofs (rooves?) on the canopies and light blue-painted railings (similar to the color of the Ben Franklin Br. in Philly), except where they used a darker blue to paint over graffiti.
Where the Astoria el meets the Flushing el, close to Queensboro plaza, the main horizontal girders are marshmallow-peep-pink (yuck), the vertical supports and cross-bracing a light gray. The QBP Station's superstructure (the part above the tracks) has just been repainted in a lovely hunter green and the windows replaced during the recent remodelling.
Your els are yellow?
The only elevated section of el I've seen from ground level was the 7 at Willets Point, and it was blue, IIRC.
We have fli[-flopping colors in Philly, too. The Market St. El is rusty, rusty, chipping red. Most of the Frankford El is blue until the section around Frankford Terminal which looks just as bad as the Market St side except it's green.
But yellow? That seems like it would be tough on the eyes of pedestrians and passing motorists. Oh well.
125th Street on the 1/9 showing a kaleidoscope
of paint-over colors on the el... just look
under the tracks (from within a stopped train)..
and along the (back supports) on the open-air
portions of the platform..
Around 1984, I remember that the TA began painting the White Plains Road el red. It looked nice that way. A lot better than the brownish-yellow that began rusting away. But then they replaced the red with a grayish-silver. Now that's starting to rust.
The MTA had decided in their infinite wisdom to junk the original IND lighting which has been in my station's mezzanine for 60 years in favor of new fluorescent junk. They had just replaced the bulbs too, probably so the workers could have something to see with. I better get some pictures, currently only the brackets have been placed into the ceiling, no fixtures yet.
You don't mean platform lighting, perhaps mezzanine and fare control areas ?
Bill "Newkirk"
That is a shame.
Presumably they could leave the old fixtures in place and maintain them with working bulbs while installing the flourescent tube lighting to bring the station up to code for illumination without removing the original lighting.
On a similar note, only one station on the original Yonge subway in Toronto has its original wall tiles; all the others have been renovated and lost their original wall tiles and signs in the process and this last station, Eglinton, is due for renovation soon so I'd probably better get my camera out and take pictures sooner rather than later. When they renovate stations they visually bear almost no resemblance to the original station except the layout may remain somewhat the same.
Shame. The TA doesn't seem to realize that when you 'upgrade' you should also retain some flavor of the original station.
Example: the original IND style station signage. Replaced with ho-hum ADA signage.
Example: renovation of Broad and Fulton Street BMT into a BMT style tile that was never there when the stations were completed in 1931 (they were finished off in IND-style tiling).
Example: 8th Avenue BMT, same reasons as above.
The ORIGINAL sketches for Broad and Fulton BMT stations indicated that a Grecian design was to be installed. They cut corners and put up IND style tile, that was what they were using at the time (1931). I am not sure if they had this in mind for 8th Avenue-14th Street, but I am glad to see that they attempted to recreate the Canarsie style tile; the only beef I have with it is: a) the colors are kind of dull, not enough brights; b) they cheated! they didn't cut it randomly, they used a pattern.
wayne
It seems that I am the only person here who COMMENDS this action.
The IND is boring, its lighting is just as boring and are just bare light bulbs hanging from the ceiling. It's not like those lights do a good job either. This is a GREAT development, and a sign of progress.
Bare light bulbs from the ceiling are part of what gives the IND it's unique charm. The IND is anything but boring, most examples of the construction are a master of Art Deco design and form. Some examples are the graceful arch bridge over 4th Avenue, and the substations designed to fit with and grace the community.
Progress is important, but not at the cost of the original aspects of the handiwork. You can incorporate new illumination whilst retaining the original features.
The BMT and IRT also have unique style. The IRT has it's bas reliefs and murals and the BMT had it's unique rolling stock.
Shame some examples of BMT rolling stock could not be saved.
Built in the era of art-deco, the IND brought the subway to new heights of bathroomlikeness. It's plain white tile and colored stripe stations were horribly bland and did not fit into this era of design.
Bare light bulbs are not at all charming. I can see light bulbs at home. Meanwhile, Even if it isn't great and unique like some of the IRT designs, BMT tile is much better. The loss of the IND tile at the three BMT stations where it was installed is nothing. There are hundreds of lookalike IND tiled stations remaining that make the DC Metro look diverse in station design.
Not that there's anything wrong with the DC Metro, at least there they picked a uniform design that's unique and appealing and also practical. It's too bad I can't say the same for the IND.
The key word for the IND was PRACTICAL. What could be done to better service, what could be done to make it easier to locate a station, etc., etc.
I can't agree with your ideas of what is 'bland', certainly not the structures of IND that I had mentioned in my prior posts. In addition, I would not call the vaulted ceiling at 4th Avenue 'bland', nor the shape and scope of the 190th Street IND station, with it's rock motif built into the outer station structure. There are more examples.
I acknowledge that since the IND was constructed in the depression years, the stations are of similiar design to one another, but what separates the IND from the BMT and IRT is the physical infastructure of the system: flying junctions, wider turns, longer stations, etc. etc. These improvements gave (and STILL give) the IND a FUNCTIONAL improvement over the BMT and IRT. So what if the tiles may appear similar? You'll get home faster. So what if the color is drab? You wont be delayed waiting for a train to cut across your track, since we have flying junctions. So what if you see bare bulbs? You wont have to see your train crawl to 5 miles an hour due to a sharp turn with tons of timers on it.
You seem to be missing the point with regard to the three BMT stations, the point of renovation (of TA stations) is to restore the station to what was, or at least close to how it appeared at opening. Even though as you say IND tile is 'bland', that IND-style tile was original equipment at those BMT stations. It was a concerned effort at bringing together at least two systems, even though it would take many more decades until that became a reality. To replace the tile with a fake copy of BMT tile is defacing the original intention of the designers, architects and planners.
Washington's Metro style is unique, but certainly impratical. At Metro Center, you have tiles that are always being repaired (floor), leaks abound, and on the elevated sections, those lights encased in glass bulbs do zero for lighting the station areas, which was it's intent.
Bare bulbs? Practical. A similar station design? Practical. Flying Junctions? Practical. Longer stations? Practical. Wider Curves? Practical.
There's no question, though, that while the IND's engineering in relation to the tracks and platforms themselves was a step forward over the BMT and IRT, they went way, way overboard on their extra space on the mezzanine levels, and the Eighth Ave. express/local design along CPW was a 40-year nightmare for people without earplugs waiting at the local stations (though a joy to ride past on one of the R-10 cars).
As far as the tiles go, they are bland, and also tended to get worse as the years went on. The Post-WWII East New York-Euclid section on the A/C is a slight update of the original IND tile design and not much different from the 1930s efforts, but then we arrive at Grant Ave., the Great Satan of NYC subway station design. Its tile scheme was the template for the next 15 years of station design within the system, including the IND Grand Street and 57th Street stops and those gawdaful platform extensions on the IRT that are only now being eliminated.
I suppose since they were using depression-era tax dollars to build the IND, cheap station design shouldn't be considered a big minus, but the color coding plan never caught on with the general public and a little more individuality at each station would have been a good thing.
Did someone say something about the joy of riding along CPW on a thundering express of R-10s?:-) Been there, done that many times. I just hope they don't resort to putting any more timers or WDs on that stretch.
I agree with you that the IND built practically, but the practical stuff has been built. There is no reason for the TA to maintain that.
In fact, your advocacy for keeping the lights is in contradiction to your call for more practicality. Today, fluorescent lights are more practical. Keeping the old bare bulbs for nostalgia's sake would not make any sense.
Today we live in a wealthier time and we can afford to spend more on station renovations. While not the most important goal, design and aesthetics are still very important and should not be ignored. The current MTA's plan to rebuild stations to look like they did as they were built is only because there original plan (destroy the old stuff) made everything uglier. It just so happens that the older stuff is nicer. Except for those exceptions you mentioned, the IND is not nicer than anything modern, except for the stuff that followed it in the 50s, 60s and 70s, that's much worse.
We should not do anything just because it was done in a certain way in the past. The original architects, designers and planners are dead, and we should let the architects, planners and designers of this generation have a chance.
Tradition serves only as a barrier to progress.
Not to mention that those bulbs are custom manufactured for the TA at odd wattages and left-hand threads.
-Hank
Those incandescent bulbs made for a dim, dingy atmosphere. Not only in mezzanines, but platforms as well. I still remember incandescent lighting on platforms on the Concourse, Fulton St., and Queens lines into the late 70s. Fluorescent lighting is a big, big improvement.
>>>...but platforms as well. I still remember incandescent lighting on platforms on the Concourse...<<<
Many mezzanines on the Concourse STILL have incandescaents, Fordham comes to mind, It looks like a dungeon.
Peace,
ANDEE
Fordham Road merely LOOKS like a dungeon; At Bedford Park, you actually HAVE a dungeon.
I sez: Leave da bulbz alone!
wayne
I've noticed also that 71/Continental as well as 63rd drive has had every single light bulb replaced (on the mezzanine), including ones directly above / next to existing fluorescents. Everything looks unnaturally bright.
You'd half expect Vincent Price to appear and say, "Good evening".:-)
And I expect John Madden to say that that doesn't make a lick of sense!
Not exactly. I maintain that the bare lamps (subject matter of this post) in some of the IND concourses can be maintained, while augmented with the newer, floursecent lamps.
Let me make one thing clear, I am not one of these zealots, crazed and determined not to allow progress! Far from it! Example: Signal replacement on the West End Line: About time, long overdue. Painting of el structures: Welcomed! I can give more examples.
However, I firmly believe that progress can be intertwined with maintaining the flavor and scope of the original work, which gets me back to the bare bulbs. I hate floursecent light, it's an artifical shade, it's too bright, doesn't have a warm glow, etc. But, I realize that it is the only type of lamp to illuminate a large section of subway.
Why can't we simply COMBINE the old with the new?
Agreed, let today's desginers, engineers, crafters, etc. have a chance. But not at the total expense of destrying everything that was simply because of progress. Compromise.
Not exactly. I maintain that the bare lamps (subject matter of this post) in some of the IND concourses can be maintained, while augmented with the newer, floursecent lamps.
Then you would have to maintain two things. It makes much more economic sense to settle on one system. Not to mention that one of the reasons of the fluorescent lights was to save costs. Not removing them means they still have to be maintained, nothing is saved.
Let me make one thing clear, I am not one of these zealots, crazed and determined not to allow progress! Far from it! Example: Signal replacement on the West End Line: About time, long overdue. Painting of el structures: Welcomed! I can give more examples.
Well, all of those things aren't big changes. The West End line uses the same signals as it did before, just newer. The els were painted before, new paint is just something that is done on and on.
However I'm not saying that you are a total luddite for wanting to keep those lights.
[Bad things about fluorescent lights]
Why can't we simply COMBINE the old with the new?
However by putting in the fluorescent lights, they would cause the same problems. They would overshadow the incandescents and would not save the money that could be used in the most important function of the subway: Moving People Rapidly Through New York.
Agreed, let today's desginers, engineers, crafters, etc. have a chance. But not at the total expense of destrying everything that was simply because of progress. Compromise.
There is compromise. We still use the letter system, we still keep the same tile in most stations, often even replacing it with lookalike tile. The light bulbs were not an interesting aspect of the IND.
Wherever you go, you'll find people with an adoration of everything that there is, simple or complex. There is no reason we have to keep everything from the past just to satisfy those people.
Those incandescent bulbs are usually retained for backup lighting,
at least on the platforms, in strings-o-five off the third rail
with a transfer relay.
Of course, how often are they tested?
They don't fail if they're not used, barring outside factors such as moisture.
-Hank
and vandalism. When one breaks, four more go dark.
Newer installations have these emergency lights as part of the main light fixture. In transverse mount installations you will notice a small section with a diffuser cover- these hold the incandescent bulbs for the emergency lighting. In stations with longitudinal layout, they are located in between sections of fluorescent lighting but some bulbs have been stolen, borken or diffuse covers missign or all three.
Monday night i was at WTC and the emergency lights were on-- the main lights were partially out (yes- it was reported)
Well, they ARE tearing down the 1970s tile and recreating/rehabilitating the original stuff at the Broadway BMT local stations....the old is new again.
Why don't we put up some faux original IND panel tile at 34th Street-6th Avenue? When they tore the two-told yellow/gold tile down it broke my heart! The person in charge of it today would not have allowed it; that is why you have rehabs like Chambers, 14th/8th, 207th and 7th Avenue.
wayne
You have IND-style tile at every other station on the 6th Avenue line.
Nearly everyone you would speak to would tell you that Herald Square is one of the nicest stations in the city. They took something humdrum and common and made it beautiful and unique.
Agreed. It's nice to see the nothing-but-IND thing broken every so often. 34th is one station that was probably improved. In fact, today's Herald Square IND level kind of has a style that is comparable to the BMT level.
By contrast the 5th Ave/53rd St. station is uglier than its original tile, though it wouldn't be so bad if there were better care taken of it. 179th St, however, is beyond help. Whoever thought of that blue and orange chain-link tile must have been blind! THAT one I'd replace with the original (must have been purple) IND tile. However, I would keep the superhero cutouts on the mezanine, for their sheer originality.
:-) Andrew
The stripes at 179th made sense until 1988, then they should have changed it to orange and yellow, and in 1992, just orange.
But I must agree that the original IND tile is better here. But that doesn't mean that that's what should be done. If the tile is ever replaced, something a lot nicer should be done.
And while were talking about Hillside Avenue, why is it that in the 1960 proposed expansion, they wanted to extend the J (or QJ as it was) under Archer and Jamaica Avenues to Hollis? Isn't the Hillside Avenue line a far superior choice? The J/Z should be extended to Merrick Blvd to create a full replacement for the old Jamaica El.
>>Built in the era of art-deco, the IND brought the subway to new heights of bathroomlikeness<<
Is it any wonder people use the stations for just that purpose!
Anyway, I aggree that better lighting is a good thing. I'm all for preservation, but really there's no reason to keep doing something just because they did it to cut corners sixty-five years ago during the Great Depression.
:-) Andrew
Sorry, style takes a back seat to safety. And the dimly lit subway stations most definately need a lighting upgrade. And those fixtures are just sockets. There's nothing special about them.
-Hank
Exactly why I indicated to upgrade while maintaining the current form.
"Bare Light bulbs"
I think there also dead light bulbs too in the Subway. And It's not to blame by the Sorpanos. The people that changes light bulbs are the one's to blame when putting dead light bulbs.
Dominick Bermudez.
??? What does a fictional cable series have to do with burnt out light bulbs?
What the hell are you talkiing about, and what does a TV series have to do with it?
-Hank
Curiosity moment ... are the sockets on those IND bare bulbs STILL threaded the wrong way? Back during the depression, the light bulbs had threaded sockets that you had to UNscrew clockwise and install counterclockwise - the logic being that if you couldn't use them at home, there'd be no point in stealing them ...
Inquiring mimes knead to no ...
Not sure about station lights. IIRC the emergency lights on the R-1/9s had left-handed threads.
Even the IRT had the wrong-threaded lamps - theft of light bulbs was quite a problem way back when. But they were everywhere.
I also like the new flourescent lighting as well. It also looks better in the tunnels. The white light emitted by older style tube flourescents may seem more natural, but it's kinda cold and sterile.
And the new flourescents seem to last longer. I bought a few over a year ago and they still work wonderfully, without the darkening at the
ends like on the tubes.
With flourescents, ballasts also wear out. Light bulbs don't need ballasts.
While it’s true that eventually ballasts wear out, these days, they’re mostly solid-state, rather than the big humming transformers. (Fluorescent lighting control has improved enormously).
Reasons to prefer fluorescent lighting:
1. You get a lot more light for the buck and a lot less heat. This translates into lower power bills and less AC (or cooler on the platforms in stations that don’t have AC.
2. Bulbs last a lot longer, so that they’re much more likely to be working.
The only reason not to like fluoresscent lighting is that the color rendition is still terrible, though better than it used to be.
The other complaint about flourescent lighting is that the 60 cps flicker can be annoying sometimes.
True, but that’s the beauty of the new electronic ballasts: they actually are static invertors, generating high frequency AC, which makes the tubes strike more easily and removes the flicker (as I have been told).
Only dying tubes flicker.
-Hank
Ballasts for dry locations last years in constant use. Heavy-duty ballasts (for wet/cold locations) will last 3-5 years in normal use. But most of what causes a ballast to fail is being turned on and off; the constant heating and cooling cycles are what causes the breakdown of the tar in the ballast. Rest assured, the ballasts the TA is using are both heavy duty and will last quite some time, and will ultimately cost less in the long run.
-Hank
I disagree. The cost to replace one ballast is many times the cost to replace one light bulb. Especially a hi-voltage heavy duty ballast as you state.
However more bulbs are needed to provide the same light that the lights attached to one ballast provide.
And the bulbs may be cheaper, but they have to be changed more often.
But you replace them significatly less often, barring outside influences. I've replaced ballasts, I've installed flourenscent fixtures, and I know what the signs of failure are when it comes to such things, and their lifespan. In the time you replace all the incandescent bulbs in a station, you'll have to replace MAYBE one ballast, and unless broken, no flourescent bulbs.
-Hank
I always wondered why they didn't go with flourecent right from the start on the IND. Weren't flourescent lights around in the 30s ??
Peace,
ANDEE
They DID have them, they were expensive as all getout at the time but I suspect the primary reason why they weren't used was the 25 cycle AC power in use at the time. Back then even the incandescents flickered plenty on the platforms and passageways, it'd probably have been epileptic torture if they used fluorescents at the time.
Yeah, I also did a little research my self and came up with this tidbit:
>>>
Flourescent lamps:
The low pressure mercury arc lamp of Peter Cooper Hewitt is the very direct parent of today's modern flourescent lights. It was found that these low pressure arc lamps would put out large amounts of ultra-violet light. Folks then figured that if they coated the inside of the light bulb with a flourescent chemical (one that absorbed UV light and re-radiated that energy as visible light) they could make an efficient light source. Early flourescent lamps used beryllium in their flourescent material, creating a horrible toxic waste situation (beryllium is hideiously toxic to the lungs when inhaled). But later this was replaced with safter flourescent chemicals. Combined with modern electronic technology, the latest flourescent lamps are as much as 40% efficient in turning electrical energy into light. However, they can't be made to produce a bright point source of light that can be focused into a nice beam.<<<
Maybe they were concerned about the beryllium in the event of breakage.
Peace,
ANDEE
There are some early flourescent lamps still in use at one of my friends house in a basement stairwell which have a little recessed screw that you turn to face the correct engraved 60 or 25 mark for the line frequency power that is being used. Those lamps have been set to 60 since the mid 1950s.
Wowsers ... wonder where he got that? :)
I mean considering that only electric traction used 25 Hz as its primary source before rectifying it ...
I hope you're up for a bit of a history lesson. These kinds of fixtures with a selector for 25/60 cps operation lasted for quite a long time but there aren't many left in useany more due to age, but there was a very valid reason for having them.
As you noted, companies useing electrical traction equipment that ran off of direct current often used 25 cps AC line power on the "in" side of substations before it got rectified.
In the last two decades of 19th century electricity's main uses in Toronto (since this is where those flourescent lamp fixtures are located): Street lighting by means of carbon arc lamps, incadescent lighting in general and, of course, streetcars hence the traction use for 25 cps AC.
The earliest generating plants in Toronto that supplied the street lights and private customers were outfitted with equipment to produce electricity at 25 cycless per second as that was more or less the standard at the time. The Toronto Electric Light Company built its later plants to conform to that standard, including their huge plant at Niagra Falls which supplied electricity to Toronto for the Toronto Electric Light Company's retail use and for the Toronto Railway Company's streetcar substations (both the TRC and the Tor. Elect. Light Co. both owned by the same bunch of people including Sir Henry Pellat).
This early start at an electricity network in southern Ontario arising from the construction of the Niagra Falls plant and the transmission network to bring its electricity to Toronto was the forrunner of the grid in southern Ontario and set the 25 cps standad for it. However, most of the remainder of the province not included in the southern Ontario network was built on a patchwork of small 60 and 25 cps networks and plants that weren't connected.
When the private utilities were consolidated into a public utility that eventually became Ontario Hydro, everything up north was that didn't already was converted to operate on 60 cps. Toronto was the last place to be converted to 60 cps in the late 1950s in the gradual conversion program that was started in the late 1940s to make all of Ontario conform with one standard for electricity. I'd love to know how they retrofitted all the existing power plants with 25 cps equipment, especially the gigantic ones that were built at Niagra Falls...
For a long time, untill the very late 1950s, most appliances destined for the Ontario market that were sensitive to the AC line frequency, including those floursecent light fixtures, had some form of adjustment like the screw on those fixtures to select between 60 cps for everywhere else and 25 cps for what at one time was most of southern Ontario. I actually have several antique fans from the 1920s that probably wouldn't run now because there's no selection for 60 cps and the specifications on the back call for 120v at 25 cps.
-Robert King
Wowsers ... thanks for all that. I had never heard of 25 Hz being distributed beyond electric traction, usually from plants designed specifically to service this and only this. But it would make sense to try to sell the excess current as well in earlier times for a better economy of scale.
And I would imagine that it might be possible to get the old fans to run *IF* the proper value of capacitor were determined and available to do so for the "start" and "run" windings. The lower frequencies were used in the early days because it was safer and more reliable to spin at a lower speed. At the 3600 RPM required for 60 Hz, vibration and flying chunks of metal were far more significant a problem than at the lower speeds.
And don't feel bad - a lot of folks here don't realize that Edison generated DC ... now there's something that would roast and toast most appliances. In fact up until the 1960's in NYC, there were a number of locations on the lower east side of Manhattan that were served by DC service only. I remember having to turn the plug around on radios to make them work.
I'm not sure what the reason for 25cy was, other than an
arbitrary choice. At higher frequencies, skin effect loss
is more, but the transformers can be made a little lighter.
The rotation of an induction motor, synchronous motor or
alternator is f*60/p, where f is the line frequency and p
is the number of pole pairs. For the common household 2-pole
induction motor it's 3600 rpm for a 60cy line. Perhaps
one advantage of raising the line frequency was increased
rpms of these small motors. AC generators (alternators) typically
spin much slower and are simply wound with a lot of pole pairs.
Manhattan still has a handful of DC customers!
The lower frequency was a lot easier on rotating metal in generators and that was the reason back then since Tesla was quite happy with 25 Hz as being a lot easier on the bearings and lower in vibration and wear. As the art of cutting round metal improved with time, 60 Hertz became as easy to do as 25 ... this is also one of the reasons why Europe quit while they were ahead and adopted 50 Hz ... but yes, as you go higher in frequency, the transformers got easier to handle but the real limiting factor back then was the huge rotating metal and trying to keep it from shaking itself apart. On the powerhouse side of the equation, the lower speeds were easier on the big chunks of iron and that was the reason. I've been told this repeatedly by the turbine guys up in Schenectady and at 60 Hz operation, there are several speeds on the way to 60 Hz generation where the bearings get a good workout as the generator comes up to "speed" ...
But old Nikolai had the right answer all along. DC distribution was murder on I2R (square of current * resistance) and got prohibitively expensive as distance from the rotating slab to the customer increased. Of course Edison would have none of that and insisted for years until Westinghouse whooped his arse that DC was better. :)
Certainly for the same winding (number of poles in the stator)
the 25cy requires fewer rpms. But the same rpms can be
used for 60cy by having more poles in the winding.
For example, according to the "IRT book", the text of which
I believe is available on this site, the original IRT powerhouse employed 25cy 11kV alternators which rotated at 75 rpm and
had 40 poles, or 20 pole pairs:
rpm=60*f/p
To make this output 60cy at the same rpms would require a
rewind for 48 pole pairs. Perhaps this was a little too much.
Of course the Tesla / Westinghouse system was light years ahead
of Edison and his primitive 3-wire DC system. Edison, it seems,
did not understand AC or electromagnetism very well and he launched
a FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) campaign to stall its
introduction. Ironically, now in the solid-state age, it is
becoming possible to do high-voltage DC distribution and use
solid-state power converters instead of simple transformers.
The effective resistance of distribution wire is less at DC than
at 25 or 60 Hz because of skin effect. Perhaps DC will make a
comeback?
Heh. You must work at GE power systems. Bustini bustini! The big issue of course with distance distribution is getting up to enough voltage so that the "eye-square-are" losses are at a minimum and that's what blew Edison's (ahem) theories to crap in a shopping cart. You needed very high voltages to be efficient over distance with resistance losses in the transmission lines and Tesla had him by the short hairs there. :)
Of course, with enough commutator segments, the phasing problems had an advantage towards Edison but Edison (as proved by his progeny GE) was a bunch of cheap "baskets" (to avoid an expletive deleted) and probably had only two commutator segments and thus the smoke when he tried to demo to the adminiswigs when he lit up a portion of lower Manhattan that fateful night) ...
But yeah, DC works just fine on my little desktop railroad here, but I'd hate to think of what wheeling it to NYC would do to my profitability. Heh.
Ironically, now in the solid-state age, it is becoming possible to do high-voltage DC distribution and use solid-state power converters instead of simple transformers. The effective resistance of distribution wire is less at DC than at 25 or 60 Hz because of skin effect. Perhaps DC will make a comeback?
There have been demonstrations of 750KV DC distribution in Europe for more than 30 years. Is it skin effect losses or inductive losses?
Believe it or not, the greatest losses are earth return ... when the soil conditions are just right, you have what is called "neutral to earth voltage" (otherwise known as "stray voltage") which can make life unhappy for farm animals ... but skin effect loses some as does plain air leakage when it gets a bit moist. Funny things happen at those voltages ...
Inductance is important too, but at line frequencies of 25 or 60
cy, the inductive reactance per foot (of a single non-ferrous
conductor in open air) is pretty small compared with the resistance.
Inductance doesn't cause real power loss, as you know, but it does
cause voltage drop.
Skin effect is important even at low frequencies. I'll see if
I have a reference somewhere as to what by what % the effective
cross-sectional area of a copper conductor is reduced at 60 Hz.
Skin effect raises the effective R, real resistance, per foot
and thus contributes to real power loss.
The skin depth for copper at 20oC is
6.62/f½ cm, where f is the frequency in Hz.
This reduces to 0.85 cm or 0.34 in at 60 Hz.
The ratio of the current density at depth z to the current density at the skin is given by: exp(-z/d), where d is the skin depth.
This number is much larger than the diamaters of the individual strands for a power cable. This means that while the skin effect is measurable, it is not the major problem it is at radio frequencies.
This number is much larger than the diamaters of the individual strands for a power cable. This means that while
the skin effect is measurable, it is not the major problem it is at radio frequencies.
Skin effect worsens with increasing wire diameter. For 500MCM
cable, the effective resistance at 60cy is only 2% greater than
at DC, but for 1000MCM, that rises to 13%, hardly insignificant.
Modern high-tension lines are hollow, minimizing skin effect,
but I suspect that before the development of such cable, skin
effect was one deterrent to operating at higher line frequencies.
[These data from the Westinghouse Transmission Systems Reference
Book]
[P.S. The data given are for stranded hard-drawn copper cable.
When considering stranded cable, it is not correct to consider
the skin effect of each strand alone. That method would only
work if the strands were not touching each other and in fact
were separated from each other]
What's skin effect?
As for Selkirk: You use the ^ (caret, shift+6) symbol for exponents, so you would type I^2R and wouldn't have to explain yourself.
Or you can use HTML I2R.
Thanks for the tip on the 2 trick ... I was more concerned that "eye square R" would have blown past a lot of folks ... skin effect happens in wire with alternating current (DC will tend to flow through the center of the wire by comparison) where the alternating current tends to have a higher current flow on the outer portion of the wire than the center and this increases with frequency. For radio frequencies, you might as well use tubular conductors since there's next to zero current flow in the center of the wire. At 60 Hz, this effect is relatively negligable but a definite factor when you're trying to push a lot of electrons ...
I'm sure some of the turbine-heads around here can go into more details than I have time for but that's the gyst of the sitch-e-ation.
it'd probably have been epileptic torture if they used fluorescents at the time.
Nah, it would have been like a strobe light.
INDisco!
INDisco Stu doesn't advertise.
Safety and economy are the two reasons the station lighting is being converted to discharge type lighting (Fluorescent, mercury Vapor, Sodium Vapor).
the old incadescent lights were wired in series and if one bulb burned out (or today they steal or break the bulbs) then a whole set of lights would be out. Modern lighting design is done in Parallel.
Fluorescent lights also run cooler and are cheaper to operate and give off more light. I have seen various numbers but a 40 watt tube gives off as much light as a 150-200 watt incandescent bulb and lasts much longer. Of course you only pay for 40 watts x time of usage instead of 150 watts x time of usage.
I am sure our engineering people will elaborate on my comments and I ask them to jump right in!
I noticed on the uptown F platform at 23 St, the ceiling retains its incandescent lighting in addition to flourescent lights; however, only every second bulb was lit. Strange coincidence, or would that be how they are wired: two sets of lights, wired in series, and alternating; i.e., if one goes out, you still have half your light, and it's distributed evenly?
If those lights are on at the same time as the regular
lights, then the power failure relay or fuse has failed.
Did you ever notice a box about 2'x1'x6" hanging from the
protection board of the third rail in the station? A wire
is clamped to the base of the third rail and runs into the
box. The box contains a fuse, then another wire comes out and
enters a rigid conduit junction box. Usually another wire enters
the junction box and is clamped to the negative return rail.
Those two wires run to the lighting distribution room, some nice
a*****os filled closet in the station somewhere, and there is
a relay powered by the same AC power source as the station lights.
If that power goes off, the relay drops out and connects the 600VDC
to the emergency lights. These lights are wired "skip-stop"
so that if one blows or breaks, it doesn't take out all the
lighting in the small area. It's just like the light wiring on
a trolley car or a Lo-V.
So in the example given, not only is the relay bad; so is one of the bulbs (or some other part) in one of the two emergency light circuits. Wonderful maintenance.
[It seems that I am the only person here who COMMENDS this action.
The IND is boring, its lighting is just as boring and are just bare light bulbs hanging from the ceiling. It's not like those lights do a good job either. This is a GREAT development, and a sign of progress.]
Not to mention of inefficiency!
Pedro the super would have replaced those bulbs with fluorescents 40 years ago, because he knows it lowers costs.
But the MTA? (sigh)
I am curious, are you stereotyping an ethnic group by calling a Super "Pedro"?
[I am curious, are you stereotyping an ethnic group by calling a Super "Pedro"?]
I hope not -- gave it some thought before I posted this, because I was concerned that some people might have that impression. But Pedro was the name of an actual super of mine.
My supers from late boyhood run, IIRC, Hispanic, African-American, Russian (a music teacher by profession), "White," Hispanic, Asian, and now Russian again. And I'm part Hispanic myself.
It's possible to be too sensitive about these things . . .
I have noticed that some tunnel lights have gone to the new screw-in flurescent bulbs. They come in a large variety. They also claim to give the same light at a fraction of the wattage.
Could not the globe type bulb with the "Warm" light be used?
I feel both factions could be appeased while maintaining the original fixtures but increasing the candle power!
Perhaps there are other stations that could benifit from this compromise? The softer light of the "warm" light would maintain the original beauty of the incandesant lamp.
avid
The stations of Playland and Holland have had the LIRR lights deactivated (but the socket w/reflector are still there) and new fluorescent ones have been put in their place for the under-canopy sections. For the open air sections they put up new lampposts which have an updated LIRR station feeling to them, and they did not remove the LIRR original lampposts.
In this case I support the change because those stops saw new bulbs about once a year, and the newer lighting preserves that not-a-subway feeling while improving safety. Plus, they left the old posts there, I know I would have been outraged had they removed them (then again they are part of the fence). Other than the A/S stations the only place to find this style of lamppost is at the abandoned Woodhaven station, and only one post still looks decent.
Were these the last stations to get fluorescent platform lighting?
No. You might want to take a trip on the 2 to that station between Bx Pk E. and Allerton Ave. Also Atlantic on the L.
Atlantic on the L is getting sodium lights on the Canarise bound platform. All L line stations without discharge lights( ie- incandescent lights)will get fluorescent, and/or sodium.
Here is a list of all stations with incandescent lights on the platform:
Pelham parkway (White Plains Line)
Buhre and Middletown (Pelham Line)
Before you mention Eaatern Parkway/Broadway Junction- they are getting fluorescent and SOdium at this time.
Oh, POOH; I like my IND mezzanines Incandescent. Doesn't have to be dim; just incandescent. Why don't they use light capsules or compact flourescents instead? They won't have to change them very often.
wayne
An interesting tidbit from Washington ... today the Supreme Court ruled that a Ku Klux Klan chapter can erect a "adopt-a-highway" sign along I-55 in Missouri. It may be freedom of speech, but somehow I suspect that the Founding Fathers didn't quite have this sort of thing in mind when they drew up the Bill of Rights.
Anyway, the sign's obviously going to be trashed soon after it's erected. Now if the person doing the trashing gets caught in the act, no doubt we'll have another interesting freedom of speech case.
Before this thread gets out of control, keep in mind that it is totally off topic for this forum since I do not see anything that would be "rail or rapid transit" related in its content. I'm not going to delete it but I expect that those who follow up will read their words two or four or ten times before they click Post...
Before this thread gets out of control, keep in mind that it is totally off topic for this forum since I do not see anything that would be "rail or rapid transit" related in its content. I'm not going to delete it but I expect that those who follow up will read their words two or four or ten times before they click Post...
I see what you mean, but I figured that something road-related was close enough. Anyway, I doubt there'll be much flaming over this issue. People may disagree on the extent of free speech, but certainly no one would think that the sign is anything but ridiculous.
Well normally it is close enough that I wouldn't say anything but based on prior experience on such matters--- plus, the subject line didn't try very hard to remain subtle--- I thought it best to just remind people what proper etiquette is....
Normally I wouldn't have even "answered the phone" but with Peter & Dave on the thread I thought I would take a peek.
Mr t__:^)
"but certainly no one would think that the sign is anything but ridiculous."
The content of the sign is ridiculous but the KKK's right to put it up isn't. I find the KKK to be offensive but if you infringe upon their right to free speech it is the start of a slippery slope.
Even if infringing on their right to put up a sign weren't a slippery slope it would still be wrong.
It is a slippery slope anyway, have you noticed how "I find that offensive" is subtly becoming code for "end discussion now"? People should be able to talk about things that offend them.
The Klan is a pretty sensitive subject due to their horrific history. But the case Peter mentions is definitely not off topic. Political speech in connection with transportation or transit is extremely important. The issue comes up when someone wants to place a controversial advertisement on the subway or the side of a bus (remember New York magazine's Giuliani ad?). I think there might have been litigation early in the 1990's claiming the right to beg on public transit as a form of political speech.
Anywho, this area of discussion may be "too hot to handle" but it most definitely is not off topic.
Stop talking about the KKK!! This is Subtalk not Gossip Talk!! LOL!!
Dominick Bermudez.
Actually it's relevant, it relates to highways which are a transportation topic...don't be afraid of racial issues
Uh, well, the board header refers specifically to rail and rapid transit. It doesn't say anything about roads or transportation in general although for the most part, lots of things slide by. The KKK -and- roads is most definitely off topic.
Bravo.
A. Transit issues seem to be able to generate all the discussion we could want. With NY perhaps passing 8 million in the new census, transit will no doubt get even hotter locally (and in booming cities nationally).
B. There hasn't been a demonstrated ability here to discuss racial and ethnic issues with sensitivity and intelligence.
so true, so true...
Except for this post I'm staying off this topic like it was a hot poker. The KKK? Are we serious?
What does the KKK have to do with gossip?
I say, as long as they mind their own business and just go there to clean up the highway, I think they should be left alone. After all, if they're on the side of a highway cleaning up garbage, they are making themselves usefull rather than making spectacles of themselves in front of government buildings.
"It may be freedom of speech, but somehow I suspect that the Founding Fathers didn't quite have this sort of thing in mind when they drew up the Bill of Rights."
I don't think the founding father thought that leaders would destroy America by funneling billions of dollars of income tax dollars into a gift to the oil and car companies if the federal government thought it was needed to build an interstate highway system it should have been funded 100% by tolls. Highway are far more subsidized than transit systems. And it was the building of the interstate highway system combined with forced bussing 20 years later that destroyed the cites by forcing the middle class out.
I agree with everything you said except for your last comment. How did the highway system force the middle class out of the cities? If anything, it was the voluntary movement of the middle class that forced the government to build highways. For example, the LIE followed the middle class out to Nassau and then to Suffolk.
The Northern and Southern State brought in the first wave. Had those highways not been free, they would have thought twice.
I'm not sure but I think that Levittown preceded the Southern State parkway. In any event, the SSP & the NSP were built by Robert Moses and were not part of the federal interstate highway program.
That's highly unlikely, since the parkways were built in the 1920s. There is no way Levittown was built in the 1920s.
Levittown was built after World War II - construction started in 1947. Here are a couple of sites on the subject:
Levittown: Documents of an Ideal American Suburb
Levittown at Fifty
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ah! Levittown, New York. My hometown. I live in Queens now, and probably always will, but my heart belongs to the place where Igrew up. But in terms of public transit, not so good. Well, I wasn't too far from the N49 and N50 busses, which take you to the Hicksville LIRR (one of the best LIRR stations there is.) and the JB50 to Jones Beach. I just hope MTA-LI Bus survives Nassau's budget crisis.
I know Levittown ain't perfect, but it's where I grew up. Can't help it.
:-) Andrew
Is Levittown a separate city or is it part of another community? I've never known for sure. I spent a few weeks in the summer of 1950, including the July 4th holiday, there with my uncle George and aunt Millie. We used to barbeque all the time and the evenings were lovely. There was a community center where my younger brother learned to swim that summer. I didn't until years later. We used to shop at the Sunrise Food Exchange (what a memory eh?) I remember listening to the Giants-Dodgers doubleheader that day in the patio. The Bums blew a 4-1 lead and lost the first game 5-4, but came back to win the second 5-3. That summer was a fond memory for me.
Levittown is a "hamlet", which is what New York State calls an unincorporated community. It is part of the Town of Hempstead (in NYS, townships are called "towns"), but it has its own zip code (11756), and two school districts, and certainly has its own community identity.
:-) Andrew
You're right about hamlets. They have no legal existence. Imagine my surprise on learning that New City, the county seat of Rockland County, was not only not a city in the legal sense but was not even an incorporated Village or a Town. BTW, IIRC, there are both towns and townships in NYS. For example, IIRC, all of Nassau County consists of three townships; but there are several towns in the County. Or do I have that backwards.
No. Townships in New York State are called "Towns". Thus Hempstead, North Hempstead, and Oyster Bay are Towns, depsite the fact that all of them are far too big to be called such in practical definitions.
The communities in Nassau County (and elsewhere in New York State) which are popularly called twons are either unincorporated Hamlets (Levittown, East Meadow, Hicksville) incoroprated Villages (Rockville Centre, Hempstead village, Brookville) which are local municipalities with some autonomy from the towns they are located in (some, such as Old Westbury, straddle the border between two or more towns) but are still part of the town and depend on them for some services, and Cities (Glen Cove, Long Beach), which are not part of any town at all, though they may be geographically surrounded by towns.
What is odd is that all of the towns in Nassau and some in Suffolk are much, much larger than the state average. Brookhaven is easily large enough to be a county---in fact it is larger than several of NYS counties, including Nassau and also larger than all five boroughs of NYC put together.
:-) Andrew
Is there a map anywhere that shows the boundaries of these towns?
"Is there a map anywhere that shows the boundaries of these towns? "
For the townships, yes. Just about any detailed map will do. For the unincorporated villages and hamlets, I've never seen one. I grew up in Oceanside, and I have never once seen a map which could accurately denote the boundary between Baldwin and Oceanside (two unincorporated villages). It's pretty much something which is known only to those who live right along it.
Hagstrom's will have zip code and school district boundaries -- but you can live in Lakeview (unincorporated) and get your mail delivered from either the Rockville Centre (incorporated) or West Hempstead unincorporated) post offices depending where in Lakeview you live.
Students from Baldwin attend either Baldwin or Oceanside schools. Baldwin schools include not only students from Baldwin, but also Freeport (incorporated) and Roosevelt (unincorporated) -- each of which have their own school districts as well. Part of the campus of Baldwin High School is in Freeport. Part of the campus of Freeport High School is in (you guessed it) Baldwin.
Election districts don't help either. I now live in Rockville Centre. My neighbors across the street are in one state assembly district, I'm in another and 3 doors down on my side of the street starts a third.
Just to make this transit related, the East Rockaway LIRR station is in Oceanside. The Island Park station is in Barnum Island. The Stewart Manor station is in Garden City.
If you're really looking for a challenge, get copies of the maps for the local Schoool, Post Office, Sanitation, Fire, Sewer and Water districts and put something together from all those sources combined.
There may be census maps which sort out this mess. Prior to the 1980 census, the population was never broken out for the unincorporated villages. Starting with the '80 census, official totals were posted for the unincorporateds (at least some of the bigger ones). Whether or not their boundaries had pinpoint accuracy, I don't know.
CG
Yes, the Southern State and Wantagh Parkways did predate Levittown; they were built through the area in the twenties and thirties. The original blackboard-style exit signs naturally did not mention it; the exit off the Wantagh for eastbound Hempstead Turnpike, which puts you right through what passes for the heart of Levittown, designated Farmingdale, several miles east, as the control city.
In the eighties, the parkways got the standard green NYSDOT exit signs, so Levittown got star billing for Exit 28N, Wantagh Avenue north, of the Southern State, and played second fiddle to Farmingdale("LEVITTOWN EXIT 4E") at the aforementioned Wantagh Parkway exit.
In the past decade, housing values in Levittown are said to have sharply declined. One reason often sited is thatn people don't want to move there because there's no LIRR station This forces people to make long drives or bus rides to the heavily overcrowded Hicksville and Wantagh stations.
What's sad is that if the LIRR Central Branch trackage hadn't been torn up right around the time Levittown was starting (unsure of dates; Bob Anderson's excellent LIRR history site will provide much more detail), there would have been service right through the northern part. The ROW is very visible in the street pattern.
This would have provided an extra east-west branch through eastern Nassau, relieving congestion of the Main and Babylon branches. Trains to Ronkonkoma could have been routed over the Hempstead branch from Floral Park to Garden City and continued due east through northern East Meadow and Levittown directly into the split between Bethpage and Farmingdale stations.
There would have been less traffic on the main line from New Hyde Park to Hicksville, which would benefit Port Jeff and Oyster Bay riders- not to mention motorists in NHP and Mineola, where the gates would have been going down somewhat less. Plus, the horrible parking and platform congestion at Hicksville and Wantagh might be relieved.
As to whether the LIRR would have made ultimately the area better or worse is open to conjecture. You've got areas considered wealthy (Great Neck, Plandome, Garden City, Cedarhurst, Syosset, Cold Spring Harbor) and impoverished (Hempstead, Freeport, Bay Shore, Wyandanch, Brentwood, Bellport, Mastic) that have service. Most communities without LIRR service are considered middle-class (Franklin Square, East Meadow, Plainview, Commack, Hauppauge), but then you've got Elmont, Uniondale, Roosevelt and (of late) Deer Park and Selden, which are now regarded as heavily downscale.
It's hard to really draw any conclusion as to what effect LIRR service has on a community.
The LIRR ROW is walking distance from from my parents' house (where I grew up.) It's where the power lines go.
:-) Andrew
In the past decade, housing values in Levittown are said to have sharply declined. One reason often sited is thatn people don't want to move there because there's no LIRR station This forces people to make long drives or bus rides to the heavily overcrowded Hicksville and Wantagh stations.
Property values in Levittown have held up quite well. While commuting on the LIRR isn't easy, Levittown attracts a large number of tradesmen, who work locally or at least not in Manhattan and hence aren't concerned with the LIRR.
What's sad is that if the LIRR Central Branch trackage hadn't been torn up right around the time Levittown was starting (unsure of dates; Bob Anderson's excellent LIRR history site will provide much more detail), there would have been service right through the northern part. The ROW is very visible in the street pattern.
The last use of the trackage through what's now Levittown was for the delivery of construction materials during the town's development. I am surprised that the line wasn't kept in passenger service. At the time, Long Island's job base was a lot smaller than it is today, even with the aircraft factories in full operation, and therefore a higher percentage of residents in Levittown (and elsewhere) commuted to Manhattan than is the case today. Of course, it surely was a lot easier to park at Hicksville or Wantagh back then.
Most communities without LIRR service are considered middle-class (Franklin Square, East Meadow, Plainview, Commack, Hauppauge), but then you've got Elmont, Uniondale, Roosevelt and (of late) Deer Park and Selden, which are now regarded as heavily downscale.
I wouldn't characterize Selden as downscale. It seems to be a solidly middle-class community. Coram, just to its east (and similarly without LIRR service), is rather run-down, however.
I also had thought that Deer Park was a stable place too.
I remember Farmingville and Medford (112 and north of the LIE) being nice areas, I think I went to a small minuture golf course there back in the late 80s.
When I was there last year, it looked kinda run down. Lots of closed stores. Even the WBLI studios on route 112 are gone, now they are located in Babylon (TX is still on Bald Hill).
I think electrification of the Ronkonkoma line east of Ronkonkoma, to Medford would have helped the area. I don't think the area is too hot because it is too long of a commute.
I remember Farmingville and Medford (112 and north of the LIE) being nice areas, I think I went to a small minuture golf course there back in the late 80s.
When I was there last year, it looked kinda run down. Lots of closed stores. Even the WBLI studios on route 112 are gone, now they are located in Babylon (TX is still on Bald Hill).
I think electrification of the Ronkonkoma line east of Ronkonkoma, to Medford would have helped the area. I don't think the area is too hot because it is too long of a commute.
I live in Medford not too far from 112. The area is definitely on the upswing with new commercial construction. A huge site has been cleared on the SW corner of 112 and Horseblock Road, just north of the Expressway, for a Lowe's home center (the first one on Long Island, IIRC). The foundation has been staked out and I believe some concrete has been poured, although the weather has interrupted the pour. Farther north on 112, a big recreational site (minigolf, driving range, race track and batting cages) is being developed. Part of it opened last summer and the rest should be completed in a few months. A medium-sized commercial building is under construction just north of there, I don't know what exactly it'll be, and some site clearance has just begun on some land adjoining the Brookhaven town offices. Finally, a couple of long-vacant rundown buildings have been removed.
As far as commuting from Medford is concerned, it's a bit of a drag, but not impossible. I usually get the Greenport train to Ronkonkoma. Medford to Ronkonkoma is less than a ten-minute run. The main disadvantage with that arrangement is the fact that there's only one train in the morning, and the last train from Penn leaves at 5:41 pm. I suppose many people from the area simply drive to Ronkonkoma, but I just cannot deal with that Hell-hole. Another alternative is to drive to Patchogue. It's only about a ten-minute drive from the center of Medford and the diesel trains on the Montauk line are vastly better than the electric junk at Ronkonkoma - and far less crowded. Whatever the situation, Medford's relative remoteness from the city hasn't been much of a disadvantage, as there's quite a bit of residential construction in progress.
I'm glad to see it's doing better. I'd like to get out to that area on my own, but it would be hard with mass transit.
One day when spring finally comes I'll probably take the LIRR Port Jeff branch to St.James. I miss the Smith Haven mall (it's one of my favorite malls). How much of a walk from St.James station to Smith Haven? Doesn't look much more than a mile on my map, so it's probably doable.
It's too bad the Greenport line has such poor service. One thing I never figured out is why the LIRR didn't expand service and put a stop by Tanger Outlet center (doesn't it run right by there?).
Instead of city residents and those from Nassau driving, they could simply take the train.
Last time I was at Tanger was awhile ago. Back when I lived in N.Wantagh. We went with Sunrise Highway to route 51 through Riverhead. Liked it alot better than taking the LIE, and man does it get DARK out there at night. Route 51 was pitch black.
An LIRR trip out east would be nice, but with so few trains it's kinda difficult. :-(
<< How much of a walk from St.James station to Smith Haven? Doesn't look much more than a mile on my map, so it's probably doable. >>
It's longer than a mile, probably 2 - 3 miles.
I've been on most eastern sections of the LIRR at one time or another. The Port Jefferson line is actually very pleasant as far west as Cold Spring Harbor, and is an attractive ride all the way to Port Jefferson. The Greenport route is gorgeous, though certainly sparse. Those tracks look like they they don't get more than three trains a day, and in fact they don't. It's one the MTA's few genuinely rural stretches of railroad. The Montauk line also qualifies, though it has a lot more service. But I remember it being very pleasant after Eastport or so, ESPECIALLY going into Montauk.
:-) Andrew
Just don't ride the Montauk line on a hot, humid summer day -- those duck farms are awful!!!!!
Now Coram, NY is where my wife grew up. I see it pretty frequently. It seems moderately run down. Some of the rural areas to the southeast are OK, but some of the smaller residential areas remind me of my image of the deep south.
:-) Andrew
Now Coram, NY is where my wife grew up. I see it pretty frequently. It seems moderately run down. Some of the rural areas to the southeast are OK, but some of the smaller residential areas remind me of my image of the deep south.
One of the things that contributed to Coram's semi-blighted image was that largely abandoned shopping plaza at the intersection of 25 and 112. Finally, after a couple years of talk, something's being done. At least half of the plaza has been demolished and a new Home Depot is being built in its place. Several of the long-vacant stores in the remainder of the plaza now have been rented. No one's ever going to mistake Coram for Old Westbury; as you correctly point out, some of the residential areas basically amount to exurban slums. Even so, the town should start to look better with the new Home Depot and the revitalized plaza.
The South Fork is incredibly wealthy and the town centers look like the downtowns of wealthy villages (which they are). Montauk looks like a nice seafaring place.
The North Fork looks more of the rural "general store" variety. Absolutely nothing Long Island about it. That would change if a bridge was built to New London and Rhode Island, but I don't think I want it to. A bridge to New Haven would be less environmentally sensitive anyway, and the people on Fishers Island don't want a bridge (and we don't want a bridge to Plum Island).
Did I manage to steer the conversation to bridges?
and we don't want a bridge to Plum Island
It would be too easy for those three-headed sheep to wander off.
I don't care about the Octoparrots escaping, but some of the diseases they study there are contagious diseases in swine!
Oh, and here's a picture of three of my compatriots from Plum Island:
As seen in the New York Times!
by "the rural areas to the southeast", I meant the open areas to the immediate southeast of Coram, say going down Mill Rd, NOT the Hamptons.
:-) Andrew
I didn't think you were talking about the Hamptons. I was adding the Hamptons to the discussion.
As to whether the LIRR would have made ultimately the area better or worse is open to conjecture. You've got areas considered wealthy (Great Neck, Plandome, Garden City, Cedarhurst, Syosset, Cold Spring Harbor) and impoverished (Hempstead, Freeport, Bay Shore, Wyandanch, Brentwood, Bellport, Mastic) that have service.
It's been said that one of the reasons behind the LIRR's decision to electrify the Ronkonkoma line in the 1980's was the hope that better train service would give an economic lift to the poorer communities along the line - Wyandanch, Brentwood and Central Islip. Whether electrification actually helped these areas is an open question.
Well Glen Cove seems to be in a contuing decline, electrification of the LIRR may have helped. But maybe not as much as one might think, since it's kinda roundabout. We have to go down to Mineola, then head west.
Crazy idea: extend the Port Washington branch to Glen Cove. I guess they'd have to build a bridge (and a huge one) over Hempstead Harbor and bring it into Glen Cove. That would be alot more direct, but it
like the cross LI Sound bridge it will never happen.
I used to live in Levittown and I still think it's a nice area. It is truly blue collar, and hasn't become upscale and overpriced like many other parts of Nassau county. There have been some store closings, and commuting to NYC is a problem without the LIRR. If the LIRR Central line did run through Levittown (I believe it is clearly marked by high voltage lines)it would be very different. There'd probably be more of a concentration of stores around there, and traffic patterns would be way different. I really do not know if the central line would have benefitted Levittown. Property values might have been higher, but then it wouldn't be an affordable blue collar neighborhood, probably be more expensive like Wantagh.
The Central Branch would also be able to serve the Roosevelt Field Mall and surrounding shopping area between Old Country Road, Hempstead, Garden City and Eisenhower Park.
AND a big obstacle to the line is that Eisenhower Park is in its path.
AND a big obstacle to the line is that Eisenhower Park is in its path.
The world's widest rail trail.
Levittown Could've Had the LIRR
How, it's in Pennsylvania.
Presumably you're being a weisenheimer, but we mean Levittown, NEW YORK!
:-) Andrew
Ha, ha, very funny. Interestingly, some say the Levittown in Bucks County, PA was William Levitt's sequel due to the success of his 'original' Levittown in Nassau County, NY.
PLEASE, let's not start another thread about duplicate town names.
There was also a Levittown in New Jersey, but it's now called Willingboro.
:-) Andrew
...some say the Levittown in Bucks County, PA was William Levitt's sequel due to the success of his 'original' Levittown in Nassau County, NY.
They are correct. Also Levitown, Burlington County, NJ, which subsequently changed its name to Willingboro.
..some say the Levittown in Bucks County, PA was William Levitt's sequel due to the success of his 'original' Levittown in Nassau County, NY.
They are correct. Also Levitown, Burlington County, NJ, which subsequently changed its name to Willingboro.
Isn't there also a Levittown in Puerto Rico?
Isn't there also a Levittown in Puerto Rico?
Hooda thunkit?
Yes, there is a Levittown in Puerto Rico, just west of San Juan.
Yes, there is a Levittown in Puerto Rico, just west of San Juan.
I wonder if the Tren Urbano will serve it.
The GI Bill fueled the exodus to the suburbs. To "protect" the returning (from WW II), a minimum lot size was mandated for properties whose mortgages would be backed by the GI bill. This ruled out row houses and urban residences and was a (or THE) major factor in the move to the suburbs that began in earnest in the late '40's and built up in the '50's.
The current issue of Preservation magazine (the bi-monthly journal of the National Trust for Historic Preservation has a rather lengthy cover story and some good photos dealing with Chicago's Ravenswood L and the neighborhoods it passes through. I checked the National Trust's website for an online version of the article, but had no luck. Preservation isn't a magazine you'll likely find in most newstands, but I'd still recommend getting a copy somewhere if you are able to find it. The same issue also has a two-page article about the future of Wrigley Field.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Or join the National Trust, and get the magazine every couple of months. I've been a member for nearly 25 years now (and before that borrowed my father's copy).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's a scan of the new MBTA Service Guarantee refund request card. I'm sure I'll get a chance to try it out one of these days!
And, hopefully the idea of a service guarentee will spread to the rest of the transit industry.
Wow! Imagine the LIRR trying this?
Our most excellent Web Host has just posted my Sydney, Australia overview and images. I hope you enjoy...
gmarly, or perhaps good on you.
Todd,
As a resident of Sydney, I certainly did 'enjoy' seeing our system on nycsubway.org - also see my short reference in Subtalk a few days ago (3/1) about the 75th anniversary of our electric system.
I will email you direct about a few changes to captions.
Our first tri-level car was delivered in 1964, T 4801 (now presrved). It was in the consist of some special trips for the 75th anniversary on 3/3. Perhaps we pioneered the design now in use by LIRR? I believe our contractor ComEng sold the plans to Kawasaki after a takeover and they pulled out of the LIRR contract.
Ian
Ian,
It was great fun visiting your country and rail system for a few days! Hopefully other SubTalkers will have a chance to visit as well.
Thanks for sending any corrections ... I'll forward them to our Web Site Host to incorporate.
> I will email you direct about a few changes to captions.
Email them to me not Todd (or at least, in addition to, since I'll need to make the changes)
Nice work, I should add to this archive with an Adelaide and Melbourne write up, how do i do so??
Easy... write it up however you like, take some photos, attach 'em to an email to me, and depending on the complexity, I'll get it up on the site as fast as I can...
Todd, love the pictures Reminds me of my trip down under last July. Have to dig up my videos. Too bad you did not get any from Melbourne and their trains and trams
Todd ...
Very well done! In this picture below ...
... what's above the station? Another transit line or a highway?
--Mark
I know it looks like there's something up above, but it's just a roof over the platform.
My countryman IAB will know more about this than me, but I think it's the Bradfield Freeway which runs off the Sydney Harbour Bridge, over the top of Circular Quay station and takes road traffic from the bridge to eastern Sydney and the eastern suburbs.
Thanks for the update on that! I didn't get good look at that, since I didn't have a car.
No worries!
What is interesting about Circular Quay is that until 1956 there was no station (and no Bradfield Freeway) and no rail connection between Wynyand and St James. Trains used to terminate at St James and were marshalled in a small section of tunnel beyond the platform.
Todd, Very nice group of photos thanks to you & Dave for sharing with us. I see you had a friend with you (the best way to railfan). Is he a weather man or railbuff internet acquaintance.
Mr t__:^)
Re this picture -- http://www.nycsubway.org/asia/sydney/syd186.jpg
1) The old Chicago L station now located at the Illinois Railway Museum (nee 50th Avenue from the Metropolitan L's Douglas Park Branch) has original ads on the face of each step for "Portola," some medicine purported by the ad to taste like candy. IIRC, like the indecipherable drug ads of today, the ads don't say what Portola was actually for.
2) Grace Brothers? Is that by any chance a department store? And if it is, are you being served? :^)
Well, John, I'll leave it to our Australian colleagues to answer your questions! All I can say is that I thought I had seen everything when it came to selling ad space. (Yes, I've seen ads on the inside of rest room stall doors! Talk of being a captive audience!)
Yes, Grace Brothers is a department store which was originally established in Sydney in 1895 and has since spread to other parts of Australia and is now part of the Coles Myer chain. So far as I am aware, any link between Grace Brothers here and "Are you being served" is a coincidence.
I took the E train southbound from West 4th to WTC the other day, and got the pleasure of seeing a couple of things that I had never observed before from the front car window. The first was the untracked turnoff to the future (I'm still holding out hope) Worth Street line, which I knew about, but the following puzzled me:
A couple of times along the ride, we were faced with a bright white light along the right side of the tunnel, like a signal of some sort. It was quite bright. At Canal Street, the motorman stopped the train, got out and said something to the tower about it, and it promptly turned off. Anybody know what this was about?
PPS
Probably a WD (Wheel Detector) signal
What does a WD signal do? I betray my obvious ignorance of the signalling system, perhaps....
I seem to remember the letters "WD" on the sign...
PPS
It's a special timer designed to limit speed over switches.
I think it is explained in the signal section of this
(nycsubway.org) web site
Nope. There's nothing about WD signals on this site, except in the glossary. There's nothing on them in the signals page.
Unlike Grade Timers or Station Timers that measure speed buy timing the time the train passes pervious signals, WD phyiscaly measure the turning of the wheels and will stop the train if the speed exceeds what is posted.
They are used at interlockings, a white light and flashing white light tells the operator if he is exceeding the speed. I also believe WD violations are automagicly reported to the tower and command (like they willy-b signals).
Just to elaborate a little bit:
A flashing lunar white light indicates that the train operator is operating above the posted speed limit for the WD; if he doesn't slow down, the WD will trip the train into emergency.
A solid lunar white light indicates that the train operator is complying with the posted speed limit for the WD.
Would you be willing to write up your details and send it to Dave Pirmann in an-email so that he can update the glossary and the FAQ section of thec site?
Unless your at Parkchester where they are always solid white whether you are speeding or not (unless they finally fixed them).
It was a WD (Wheel Dectector). They were just discussed a few days ago because someone asked about the same WD you did.
If the Second system were built today to the exact specs from the 20s, how useful would the new lines be? In other words, would areas that needed the subway then not need them today, and vice versa?
The most obvious line would be the 2nd. av subway, which would be a great impact on the lex, queens boulevard 6th and broadway lines. I would definately say that it would be a great help.
That other crosstown line between bk. and queens would just be another G train: Not enough ridership.
As for the rest of the lines, i don't really know what they'd be like: I don't even really know what they are.
From my 1929 map, there are the following proposed lines:
2nd Ave from Pine St. to the Bronx (Alexander Ave), splitting off at 163rd Street out to East Tremont Ave. Main line going up Boston Road to Morris Park Ave, left on Wilson Ave, conntecting with a "crosstown" stub to the Grand Concourse line, with a terminus at Boston Rd and Baychester Ave.
Worth Street - East Broadway - Grand Street crosstown line, connecting with an extended Houston Street line in Brooklyn, heading east on S. 4th St. (Two tunnels under the East river) This line would split off at Myrtle Ave.
Myrtle Ave Branch would continue alond Central ave (with a connecting line to the Queens Boulevard line along Fresh Pond Rd), then heading east on 98th-99th Street to connect with what was then thought to be a new subway to the Rockaways (eventually just converted LIRR tracks).
A branch would head out towards Montefiore Cemetary via 120th Ave.
The other branch was to go down Stuvesant Ave, continuing down Utica Ave, connecting with an extended IRT Nostrand Ave line via Ave S, with a terminus at Voorhies Ave.
An etension of the 7 line to two terminals, one by Little Neck bay at 38th Ave and 221st St, the other at 11th Ave and 122nd St. I can't imagine what neighborhoods these are, being a Brooklyn boy.
The plan called for an extension of what I guess was the Fulton St line along Liberty Ave out to Van Wyck Blvd, crossing a line that would have gone from the Queens Blvd Line to the 120th Ave line (see above), then up Brinerhoff Ave to Hollis Ave and terminating at Springfield Blvd. A connector to the Jamaica El would be made at 180th Street.
Finally, an extension of the Astoria line would make a 90-degree turn at Ditmars and head along Astoria Ave right on 112th St, left at Nassau Blvd and terminating at Cross Island Blvd.
Am I missing anything here?
PPS
Finally, an extension of the Astoria line would make a 90-degree turn at Ditmars and head along Astoria Ave right on 112th St, left at Nassau Blvd and terminating at Cross Island Blvd.
AKA Astoria Boulevard, Long Island Expressway and Francis Lewis Boulevard.
Ahh....
Those 1929 maps... sheesh, can't they get the names right?
PPS
This is subject to debate, but there was also a planned extension along Lafayette Ave. (the middle track at Bedford-Nostrand on the G splits into two tracks before deadending) which would have turned slightly at Stanhope St. and joined the Myrtle-Central Ave. line.
There were also plans to extend the Queens Line out to the city limits, as well as the Fulton St. subway along Pitkin Ave.
It's safe to assume the city would have developed quite differently had the entire Second System been built.
Your 1929 map shows the Second Sytem on it!?? I've never seen a map with the Second system on it. Where did you get it? Is there any place I can look for one? Since I'm not too familiar with NYC geography, I have a hard time picturing where the second system goes.
What I did was look at the Second System description on this site, and drew the lines in an old Hagstrom map.
The 1929 map is part of the "Twelve Historical New York City Street and Transit Maps", which I believe is available from the transit Museum. It has a plastic ring binding and pouches for all the maps. It rocks big time.
PPS
As for the rest of the lines, i don't really know what they'd be like: I don't even really know what they are.
You need to look here for the complete lowdown on the IND Second System.
--Mark
(The most obvious line would be the 2nd. av subway, which would be a great impact on the lex, queens boulevard 6th and broadway lines. I would definately say that it would be a great help.
That other crosstown line between bk. and queens would just be another G train: Not enough ridership.)
Unfortunately, what isn't useful is the 6th Avenue Line (or the Broadway Line, take your pick). NYC doesn't need more subways, it just needs them in different places. You've got 16 tracks between 6th and 8th Avenue in Midtown, and just four east to the river.
I'd say you'd build the 2nd Avenue through to the Bronx, extend the IND lines in Queens, and build the Utica Avenue line, hooking it up to the L train.
Remember, when the Second System was planned, you had an industrial center on the West Side, a commercial center Downtown, and just residences on the East Side. Midtown was not what it is, neither was Queens, and neither was the auto (for travel within the outer boroughs). So you'd ditch the outer-borough crosstown lines, but you'd probably add crosstown service in Manhattan.
I rather like the idea of the Worth Street - East Bway line to S 4th Street in Brooklyn, joining an extended Houston Street line.
This line also was going to extend out and southeast down Stuyvesant Avenue and Utica Avenue, connecting with the Fulton Street line at Utica. From there it would join up with an extended Nostrand Ave IRT line out to such underserved communities such as Marine Park.
The La Guardia line often spoken about these days was originally proposed in the Second System plan too.
It seems to me that these would work today with some sort of infusion of capital and will. We need a mayor who doesn't dress in drag and try to close down museums, maybe.
PPS
IMHO most of it would be heavily used. Part of the 'defecit' of the G today is thar many of the lines it was designed to link never happened. At a minimum, extra tunnels under the East River would be magical--Manhattan Bridge problems--who cares! Second Ave--this is not a question unless you are from Mars. Extensions/more comprehensive services in outer Bklyn, Queens=faster commuting for thousands of workers. While I "understand" the sequence of 'causes' for what we now call the "no-build" alternative, it was a disaster nonetheless. Despite cyclical downturns in transit ridership, the ultimate utility is clear if we want something to breathe for our children.
After observing the 1929 proposal, some of the lines looked very inessential, such as the entire S 4-Myrtle Ave line.
First of all, that line runs for a stretch parallel to and about one-two blocks away from the J/M/Z line. I believe this was only proposed because of the competition between IND and BMT. Now that the system is unified, and the fact that the J/M/Z show no signs of overcrowding {the line runs fine with 8 car trains} this S 4 St junction is disposable. The only thing I'd like to see is a connection from the G to the J/M/Z where they meet. That'd give some future G riders easier access to Manhattan when they cut off.
Also, I'm not that frequent a Bronx rider but I don't believe that the 2nd Ave subway is being needed north of 125th St, unless the 2/5/6 IRT trains are overcrowding. I believe they wanted to connect the White Plains/Pelham Bay line to B-division because of a proposed extention to the Concourse line making more transfers. I don't know how in need the Concourse line is in an extention either.
I think there should be extensions to YONKERS and MOUNT VERNON. These are very urban areas, which aren't doing all that well. A subway would be a great shot of life. I'm sure though that the city wouldn't want to fund this, it would have to come from the state, from Westchester or from those cities.
Well, the 2Av line, the Utica Ave line, and Nostrand Ave IRT extension would definitely would have been useful today.
3TM
Besides 2nd Ave, the extensions throughout Queens, especially Eastern Queens, would be extrememly useful today. What I'd really want to see now is a few lines completelym seperaye from Queens Blvd. going all the way to end of Queens.
:-) Andrew
Some of The Bronx portions were [sort of] realized/fulfilled when the city took title to the now-Dyre Ave line..in fact, suppposedly LaGuardia was just about to start negotiating construction contracts to extend the Concourse line when that right-of-way became available when the NYW&B went belly up. Obviously all the Queens/Brooklyn extensions/additions would be heaven sent today.....
The 1929 plan was deemed so valuable, most of it was resurrected in the Board of Transportation's 1939 plan, and a majority of it even resurfaced in the MTA's 1968 "Plan for Action".
What made the IND Second System so unique was that a good deal of the lines planned were not in direct competition with previously built lines. Most of these routes were planned for eastern Queens and would have greatly reduced the need for passengers to rely on bus service. An interesting side effect, I think, is that if these routes had been built, the extensive private bus network in Queens might not exist today.
--Mark
If they put a stop in the right place, I could have taken the subway to my junior high school in Glendale. Instead, I had to take the subway or the Q60 bus to the Q29 bus.
I agree with Mark. The question really isn't how useful the IND second system would be today. A lot (if not all) of the areas that would have been serviced by the second system are presently in desperate need of some, additional, or modified subway service.
The question is more about how different would those areas be today if the IND second system had been built. Does the subway bring development, or does development bring the subway?
Matt-2AV
Does the subway bring development, or does development bring the subway?
The answer is yes, the subway brings development and development brings the subway - or more precisely, development brings the need for the subway. The history of New York's outer boroughs - and even that of upper Manhattan - clearly demonstrates the effects that the construction of the Els had on the City's growth. The subway has the same effect.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>The question is more about how different would those areas be today if the IND second system had been built. Does the subway
bring development, or does development bring the subway?
Matt: Both. Development creates a market for transportation , and in NYC the subway is usually a very strong choice for mode of transportation.
The subway itself has historically aided greatly in the expansion of NYC. This is perhaps most prominent in Manhattan and the Bronx (south to north - much of northern Manhattan was suburban or even farmland at the turn of the century. Just one note: the famed "Dakota" apartments adjacent to Central Park (at about 60th St.? - my memory fails me here) described by early 20th Century author Jack Finney (Time and Again), were supposedly named because they were so far from the NYC of their time that they may as well have been in the Dakotas (meaning, the midwestern states)! Now, they are still standing - in the middle of the largest city in the U.S! Brooklyn also expanded with its transit lines, from its own "downtown Brooklyn" out to Coney Island, with its Sea Beach, Brighton Beach (and its well-known Brigton hotel), and other (originally) steam RR's being converted to electric rail lines carrying every more people. Even in Queens the subway is known to have had a marked role in dvelopment. The (now #7) Corona line was touted by local newspapers of the period as rapid transport to work and home for new inhabitants of new upscale (and, many claim, WASPish and ethnically exclusive) apartments and houses in Jackson Heights and other neigborhoods. IIRC, Jackson Heights at that time carried the name of "Trains Meadow" - much of Queens was indeed almost rural in chracter then.
My question is this: Can it be shown that NYC's subways still have an effect on neigborhood development now, in today's world with modern automobile transportation and federally-funded highway development ? I am inclined to believe that it does, but fewer folks make this case. Any comments are very welcome. :)
-cordially,
turnstiles
My question is this: Can it be shown that NYC's subways still have an effect on neigborhood development now, in today's world with modern automobile transportation and federally-funded highway development?
Of course it does; look at Archer Avenue (though I'm not saying the subway alone is a factor, just a biggie). The Queens waterfront will spring up once F trains are running through there full time.
Now the 7 extension to the west side is an example of development bringing the subway.
Most land that was vacant back then is now in use. It is either residential or industrial or park land.
For the New York Metro region to prepare for the future and for growth (population) ZONING will have to be changed.
This is necessary to increase the density of these underserved areas.
Nimby will rear her head and howl.
The best chance for growth is and extension is the take-over or shared ROW i.e. the Westside line, the rockaway branch, the Bay Ridge branch, the Montauk branch, the Douglason branch, and the Hempstead branches!
avid
For the New York Metro region to prepare for the future and for growth (population) ZONING will have to be changed.
Replace "changed" with "abolished" and you would be correct.
You don't like zoning? While I'm sure that there are things in the current NYC zoning ordinance with which I disagree. I grew up in a New England mill town of c. 50K people that came late to zoning and have seen the consequences of unregulated land use. IMHO, getting rid of zoning is not the best idea I've heard today.
[. I grew up in a New England mill town of c. 50K people that came late to zoning and have seen the consequences of unregulated land use. ]
What were the consequences?
Arti
Incompatible uses side by side.
Well, Southeast Queens, the northeast Bronx and the East side would see the greatest benefits, as would the areas around the Flatlands in Brooklyn. Most ofd the other 2nd system lines were merely replacements for existing els.
DART has announced plans for a Wilmington-Dover-Beaches bus on summer weekends. A college friend of mine from Fenwick Island, DE, suggested I go to the Delaware shore rather than the Jersey shore. I investigated getting there without a car, and found that the Cape May bus from Philly, combined with the Cape May-Lewes ferry was the only option, and not very attractive at that. Now there is a direct bus from the first capital to the summer capital.
Carolina Trailways runs daily service from Philadelphia and Wilmington to Delaware beaches via connection at Harrington Delaware. They run additional service in the summer.
The DART/DAST service to the beaches has been around for about the past 8 years. In addition, there is a fairly comprehensive service within the beach communities in the summer months (Rehoboth, Dewey Beach, etc). Given the brutal traffic on Route 1 in this area in the summer, the buses provide an attractive alternative.
Everyone on this site has put in just about every possible plan there could be about routing of subway lines during the manhattan br. re-routes. But no one here has really thought about what will happen after the bridge is fully open.
I imagine that the B will return to being the west end express. However, what about the D/Q lines? 6th av. sees more traffic than broadway does (due to the connection to upper west, and the fact that people from queens to bk would rather take the F or G than the R). So, will the D or Q be the brighton express service?
The biggest question is the N train. Having been cut out of the bridge express service AGAIN, will it return after 2004? Assuming that it does, what about local service on broadway nights?
Finally, the W. In the event that the N runs express after the re-routes, will the W peak direction service be enacted? Maybe it won't be peak direction? If it is made, It will be stupid to run it local after running express on west end/broadway (Which is why it should be LOCAL!).
What does everybody here think about these topics (or any i missed)
J: I was on my best behavior until I read your post. Then my blood started to boil. Not at you but rather the info you dispensed. What the hell is going on with my train? If it is true the Sea Beach has again been ordered off the Manny B, then I will be getting pissed off again. Why can't there be a Brighton, West End and Sea Beach each having access across the bridge. It is equitable, it is fair, and it is not going to happen, damn it. Well I'd better take a deep breath and try to cool it but you can tell I'm not very happy about this turn of events.
What do mean "again"? The N hasn't been on the Manhattan Bridge in years. When both sides are open, it probably will come back.
Andrew
I imagine that when (hopefully not IF) both sides of the bridge open, the W sevice will be terminated and B/6th Ave. service will return. The N should then become a Manhattan Bridge express. What happens when the R doesn't operate? Maybe then the N will operate through the tunnel. Or the R will be pressed into service as a 24 hour operation through the tunnel.
The thought of a Broadway W is intruiging, a bit. Could it become a peak hour operation along the West End line, replacing the M, so there could be peak direction express service between Bay Parkway and 9th Ave. (or 36th St.) as has occasionally been suggested on this board, over the years (I've supported it). If the West End Line could support 2 peak hour local services (M and B) over many years, going back to the 1950's and maybe even earlier, then would peak express service be considered an improvement, or would some people feel that only local is the right way to go?
Mike Rothenberg
The problem is even after surgery, the Manny B's condition will probably still be considered "fragile" (making it the Dick Cheney of East River bridges, so to speak). Because of that, I doubt the MTA would want five lines running over the bridge during AM/PM rush -- the N/Q/W on the Broadway tracks and the B/D on the Sixth Ave. side. Plus that would also mean the Montague Street tunnel would be under-used, since it would only be handling the R.
I don't doubt that West End riders would like two services to midtown Manhattan instead of the downtown-only service the M offers now. But if the W remains after the Manny B fix is finished, it would probably run via tunnel as a Broadway local to Astoria, while the N and Q provide the express service.
The W is just temporary b/c there is no Brooklyn B. When the B returns to its regular route, the W will be deemed disposable.
The W is disposable as a Coney Island to Astoria 5 a.m. to 11 p.m. line when the B returns to full service. But as a rush hour line running from Bay Parkway to Astoria replacing the M service in Brooklyn and the N local service in Manhattan when the Sea Beack goes back to Broadway express over the Manny B the W trsin has some viability -- provided the MTA keeps enough R-40/40M/42s around to augment service after the first of the R-160s arrive (the first additional cars with the R-143 arrivals will go to the V train).
The West End has been re-signaled recently, and part of the change is that skip-stop will become possible.
Most of the TA is still on 80 year old signals. They resignaled the IRT, then put in the 1/9 skip stop. They resignaled the Jamaica line, then put in the J/Z.
They're just wrapping up the West End and Sea Beach. One possibility is M/B skip stop on the West End. Waste of an express stop, though.
A much more sensible idea: using the center express track on West end for express service. B/M trains will not run skip /stop. I guarantee that. It would result in headaches galore, as people at "M stations" watch B trains go by. The TA is replacing ALL signals in the system. This work should be completed by 2017 (or some where near that)
Terrific. Maybe by then, they'll actually decide to speed up the trains ever so slightly.
The West End has been re-signaled recently, and part of the change is that skip-stop will become possible.
What does one thing have to do with the other?
Skip-stop works because the headway between trains less the time saved by the skipping train is less than the minimum headway for the system. This minimum headway is 90 seconds. The West End headway is approximately 180 seconds for 20 tph (B & M combined). The amount of time saved at each skipped station is around 30 seconds. This means there is already is a 30 second cushion for two stops being skipped consecutively and a 60 second chushion for a strict skip-stop service.
They resignaled the Jamaica line, then put in the J/Z.
Skip-stop has been around on the Jamaica Ave Line since the late 1950's. I believe they used the existing 1918 signals, when it was implemented.
There was a recent press release that the MUNI has started running at under 60 second headways under automatic control, as per the performance specs for their new signal system's RFP. Does NYCT have any similar performance specs for the Canary Sea Line?
Which is why a much better idea is to run a peak dir exp (although the M as the local is a really bad idea. ) If by chance whoever plans the routes manages to keep the W west end line around after 2004, then the B could run exp. to that.
Does the L line have those 1918 signals? Are they the oldest ones in the system?
Does the L line have those 1918 signals? Are they the oldest ones in the system?
I mentioned 1918 with respect to the Jamaica Ave Line. The 1918 date refers to when the line was placed in service. Most of the Dual Contract lines were placed in service in the 1918-1920 period, including the Jamaica Ave and West End Lines. Their signal systems date from that time, although with maitenance over the intervening 80 years, there is probably very little original equipment that is is still in place.
The Canarsie Line was built in various stages. The last part wasn't completed until 1928. So, I would not expect to see 1918 signals throughout the line.
What's wrong w/ the third track, it seems any detoured train runs it without a problem, same with the two tracks, {well one track now} extra on the Sea Beach.
For the last time: R-40S/M and 42's will not survive the r-160's!!!!!
The MTA always has the option of altering its plans, and could decide to keep X number of trains that are in the best condtion around if they decided the extra cars were needed to handle higher-than-expected ridership, or in the case of a rush-hour W train, if they needed a few extra put-ins to augment service.
Obviously, the MTA is not going to keep 1,000 old trains around when 1,000 new ones arrive, but 100-200 of the R-40/40M/42s could survive if the situation requires it, and we won't know for sure what they're going to do until the middle of this decade at the earliest.
They'll probably go back to the regular early 80s layout:
B-same {6th Ave,Bridge, 4th, West End, cut back late nights}
D-6th Ave-Bridge-Brighton-C.I.
M-same
N-Broadway-Bridge {except nights}-4th Ave-C.I.
Q-Broadway-Bridge-Brighton. {Weekdays}
R-same {cut back to 36th St overnight}. . .
Now about this W: what used to happen was there used to be a diamond N which ran from Whitehall local to Astoria in order to provide more Bway Local service, and also to provide more service to the Financial District so the R wouldn't be alone in the Financial District for the rush hour. Maybe this could be the new W when "the dust settles." But don't hold your breath.
I think that the TA will reassess all subway service when the bridge is fully available. As to the restoration of the old "regular" service, there have been several other changes that will make that difficult and impractical. The N and R have switched terminals. CPW and Concourse local service is different. The 63rd Street connector will be in service. It seems unlikely the old Brighton Line arrangement (D rush hour express to 6th Avenue, Q rush hour Express to Broadway via the bridge, M rush hour local ) will be restored.
I think that it is more likely that the Q and the V will be merged, the D and the B restored, and the Q local and the W eliminated. The TA promised the community in the 1980s that the N will be restored to the bridge and the Broadway express. There may we some other service using the bridge and the Broadway express. If it is on the West End, then the M would probably be cut back to Chambers or Broad. As for late nights, I think that the N would probably replace the R in the tunnel and the Broadway local. Of course, ridership demands may alter service.
I would recommend something different. I would run the N to Astoria and the Q to 57th/7th on the bridge and the Broadway express. The D and Q both run to the 6th Avenue Express, leading to uneven loading with the Q overcrowded. Shifting the Q to Broadway should lead to more even loading. We can debate which train should run local and which express in Brooklyn. I would run the B train to Continental Avenue except for late nights, replacing the V. I would replace the CPW B local with a K train from Canarsie via Broadway Brooklyn and the Christie Connection to 6th Avenue local and then to Bedford Park during rush hours. Non rush hours, I would run it from 2nd Avenue to 145 Street. I would also run 10 car C trains, so that there would only be one short IND service in Manhattan. (An alternative is 24/7 V train service via 63rd Street with it extended except nights and weekends to Church Avenue (McDonald); that would necessitate sending the B train somewhere else, probably Bedford Park Blvd and 145 Street, depending upon the time, and no K train.)
I realize that I cannot accomplish all of my objectives, and the final service should be based on ridership needs.
I say the Q is needed on Broadway, and not so badly needed on 6th Ave. So definitely B,D,F on 6th and N,Q,R on Broadway. As to who goes local and who goes express on Brighton, I don't know. Does the N have to be express? I don't know, but the Broadway local stations are underserved as it is. Maybe if we keep the W as a local via Montague. So here's a plan:
6th Ave
B-Bedford Pk Blvd. or 145th St to Stillwell Ave via West End
D-205th St. to Stillwell or Brighton Beach via Brighton (local or express?)
F-179th St to Stillwell via 63rd., etc.
V-179th St (so F can run express) to 2nd Ave
Broadway
N-Ditmars Blvd. to Stillwell via Bwy express
Q-57th St./7th Ave to Stillwell or Brighton Beach via Bwy express and Brighton (local or express?)
R-179th St. (so F can run express) to 95/Bay Ridge Bwy local
W-Ditmars Blvd to Stillwell Ave via Bwy local/West End
Not too radical. What do you think?
:-) Andrew
I like it. Then again I'm very biased about it. I want the Sea Beach to run as the Broadway Express over the Manhattan Bridge, and haven't budged from that stance since I've been online. A good idea.
I'm not sure about 5 trains on the bridge. Coming off repairs, that may not be such a good idea. Why do you need a W? One West end-Bway service isn't enough? Make the South terminal of the W at Whitehall, so no stop will go w/o two services in lower Manhattan. Also, what about the M? You'd have 3 west end services. I could hear Bay Ridge and Sea Beach shouting now.
My plan has the W running as a local through the Montague tunnel, not the bridge. The bridge would have the B,D,N, and Q, just like the old days.
:-) Andrew
...and the purpose is to suplement the R as the Broadway local if the N and Q are running express.
:-) Andrew
ok, I misread somewhere
Here's my Plan:
B- Bedford Pk/145 to CI via Bridge/WestEnd
- 205th to Brighton Bch (Exp all the way) via Bridge/Brighton
D- 205th to CI (Brighton LcL) via Bridge/Brighton
F- Same
M- Same
- Same
N- 57/7 to CI via Bridge/Sea Beach EXP
- Ditmars to CI via Bridge/Sea Beach EXP
Q- 57/7 to Brighton Bch via B'way/Bridge/Brighton (EXP all the way)
179th/Hillside to Brighton Bch (Hillside/QB/B'way/Brighton EXP)
R- Same
V- Same
W (I prefer T)- Ditmars to CI LCL (B'way/Brighton LCL)
Explanation-
B and D will be restored as 6 AV expresses and going to B'klyn as it has since the Chrystie opening.
Added a to Brighton Bch as a second Brighton Exp during peak since will be extended to 179th/Hillside. (See Below)
No changes to F and V service. G will end at Court Sq.
M will remain because there will be Nassau St. service from B'klyn.
N and Q will go back as B'way expresses terminating at 57/7 during off-peak hours.
Diamond N will go to Astoria as EXP during peak.
Diamond Q will be a third QB express during peak making use of 63rd ST tunnel and run exp all the way to 179th.
57/7 on B'way line is not a terminal during peak hours.
R will be the same with some short turns at Whitehall.
W (I prefer T) will be the second B'way LCL to CI via Tunnel/Brighton.
What are your comments?
Jose
Dallas, TX
I posted befored I was done.
Here's my Plan:
B- Bedford Pk/145 to CI via Bridge/WestEnd
Diamond D- 205th to Brighton Bch (Exp all the way) via Bridge/Brighton
D- 205th to CI (Brighton LcL) via Bridge/Brighton
F- Same
M- Same
Diamond M- Same
N- 57/7 to CI via Bridge/Sea Beach EXP
Diamond N- Ditmars to CI via Bridge/Sea Beach EXP
Q- 57/7 to Brighton Bch via B'way/Bridge/Brighton (EXP all the way)
Diamond Q179th/Hillside to Brighton Bch (Hillside/QB/B'way/Brighton EXP)
R- Same
V- Same
W (I prefer T)- Ditmars to CI LCL (B'way/Brighton LCL)
Explanation-
B and D will be restored as 6 AV expresses and going to B'klyn as it has since the Chrystie opening.
Added a Diamond D to Brighton Bch as a second Brighton Exp during peak since will be extended to 179th/Hillside. (See Below)
No changes to F and V service. G will end at Court Sq.
M will remain because there will be Nassau St. service from B'klyn.
N and Q will go back as B'way expresses terminating at 57/7 during off-peak hours.
Diamond N will go to Astoria as EXP during peak.
Diamond Q will be a third QB express during peak making use of 63rd ST tunnel and run exp all the way to 179th.
57/7 on B'way line is not a terminal during peak hours.
R will be the same with some short turns at Whitehall.
W (I prefer T) will be the second B'way LCL to CI via Tunnel/Brighton.
What are your comments?
Jose
Dallas, TX
Jose: My comments are get your ass back to New York, get a job with the TA and try to implement your plan. If you can't, do you know anyone on the TA who could being this off? Any plan that has the Sea Beach going express and over the Manny B has my full and enthusiasti support. Go for it.
Right now Fred, your precious N line will not run exp. over the bridge. But, maybe in 2004, it will return to bridge service.
Can you put that in writing and guarantee it? No you can't I wonder what excuse the TA will use in 2004 to shaft the Sea Beach again. BTW is the schedule for this year set in stone, in other words, has it been finalized?
I can't guarantee that the N won't get "shafted" again, but think about it. Q bridge service will get bombarded with riders while N and R trains run happily light. You only need one service to bklyn via tunnel, the bridge is MUCH quicker, and you can bet N will go there. It's only logical.
As for this year, it ain't final, but might as well be. Only god could stop those TA bastards from running the W over Manny B
Which is why running both Qs over the bridge at the same time is beyond me. 4th Ave deserves two bridge lines.
I think the reason is to avoid mass confusion on the public's part. If they went back to QB and QT, maybe, or if they pulled yet another letter out of thin air for the Brighton local (W-Brighton and T-West End would make sense to me :)), then it could happen. They won't go back to the yellow B & D because of complaints ten years ago, and supposedly "W" is the only other letter on the rollsigns (but isn't it only <W>, necessitating replacement anyway?), so that only leaves Q and <Q> for the Brighton. People are already complaining about having to differentiate between the two Qs (as the chief of staff of one city councilwoman asked Lawrence Reuter, "How am I supposed to tell the difference between a circle and a triangle?"); if the two Qs then took separate routes between DeKalb & Flatbush, the negative public reaction would be orders of magnitude greater.
I'm not saying I agree with it; I'm just trying to decipher the logic.
You are think along the same lines I do. I prefer the QB and QT to be brought back but it goes against the single letter/number policy for the lines. And yes, the T should be brought back for the West End. I'm partial to that. However, reality dictates that two bridge lines will come from 6 AV (B & D) and two for B'way (N and Q). Two B'way locals are needed through the tunnel because the R does not operate at all times between 71 AV and 95 ST. So that leaves a W or a T as the second B'way local between Astoria and CI via which ever route could handle an additional local.
Jose
The last time the N went over the bridge, the N was the shuttle, the R went 24/7. When the bridge is fully reopened, the W will go from Whitehall to Astoria, replacing the old diamond N, except to Astoria. The R and W on Broadway would work.
No, there will not be another broadway local to bklyn. Either the R will run nights while the N operates as a shuttle, or the N will make local stops nights. W will replace the old N diamond service, which was one of the craziest service plans ever (N diamond trains ran local peak direction. Because of this, N expresses also ran local peak direction).
As for QT/QB arrangement, that wouldn't work, even if they were re-lettered. A 6th av. line needs to run on brighton, as well as a broadway line. There is no need for a tunnel and bridge service down brighton.
"Either the R will run nights while the N operates as a shuttle, or the N will make local stops nights."
The N always has to be all 24/7. Otherwise, there's no service to Astoria. The line that goes to Astoria automatically gets 24/7 Bway Local/tunnel service.
"The N always has to be all 24/7. Otherwise, there's no service to Astoria. The line that goes to Astoria automatically gets 24/7 Bway Local/tunnel service."
The N could run as a shuttle between Astoria and 57th st, OR run local nights. R trains should not run express, and the Q can't handle all that service by itself.
"The N could run as a shuttle between Astoria and 57th st, OR run local nights. R trains should not run express, and the Q can't handle all that service by itself."
Then the N would have two shuttles, Astoria-57/7 and 36/4 to Coney Island. Why should that happen just to run the R into Manhattan. Also, is there a problem with changing the N from express to local at one point? The R doesn't need to run express. Finally, if you ran the R through, it should end in Manhattan, because Queens Blvd doesn't need a third train overnight. If you end the R at 57/7 and start the N at 57/7, then everybody'll really go crazy b/c they'll be forced to make a meaningless transfer.
I would say no changes should be made within the NR at night because obviously, the N has no partner or a friend that can help do its job in Queens and Brooklyn. And the R has a sibling (N) do to take over in Manhattan and its long time friends E and F to take over in Queen during night. One problem, if Q is able to help N in Manahattan, while N is responsible for its destination between 57/7 and Astoria; and 36/4 and stillwell. Whose gonna help Q to do the job in Brookly between Atlantic Av and Stillwell (Brighton line)? If N shuttle between 36/4 and stillwell and 57/7 and Astoria, then Q must run on the N between 57/7, and 36/6 in order to make a full connection and Brighton rider will be left with no service.
Lets just stick with TA's plan from now to 2004 and see how success the plan was.
"Whose gonna help Q to do the job in Brookly between Atlantic Av and Stillwell (Brighton line)?"
The Q will represent Brighton express as well as local. It will be designated by circle Q and diamond Q, the local will be orange, the express will be yellow, though they both go up Broadway. It doesn't need help on its line. But one thing I was thinking about, if the TA can get the cars together at one point, my idea was to run the Franklin Shuttle as a 4-6 car train down Brighton local during rush hours and have all Qs go express. That way, nobody would care about circle or diamond. During off-hours then, it doesn't matter which train the TA eliminates, because it would all now just be considered Brighton local.
Because you would piss off everybody on the Brighton local stations who don't get a train that goes anywhere useful (Manhattan, or even downtown Brooklyn).
To think nothing of the Sea Beach fans who are already pissed off that the Brighton will have two trains over the bridge while the N gets to serve another stretch in that damn lower Manhattan tunnel.
At least their train goes into Manhattan.
True, but you once the local train hits the express stop, the wait for a train shouldn't be any more than 2-3 minutes, and then it's full express.
Many people want a one-seat ride. Railfan fantasies are not a good enough reason to eliminate one.
There's also another reason for a one-seat ride: The seat. Somebody coming on at a local stop might want to keep their seat instead of losing it an Newkirk Avenue (where transferring, if you are already on the local is mostly useless, but the local is still empty enough at H).
Yes, but you don't think the frequency of the expresses will grant seats? Remember, these are two lines on the express.
How is that possible if the train is already SRO at SHEEPSHEAD BAY?
It will only grant seats to people at Kings Highway.
You have a good point there, especially based on the 63rd St issue whereas the G is being cut back because it doesn't go to Manhattan, and nobody on QB wants it.
The "G" cutback is not set in stone. Stay tuned.
I know. Any thread that comes up about Queens Blvd or 63rd St I follow.
Why not do the following:
Run the M on Brighton
Put cars from the Q local (R-40's) on the M/Qexp./W lines.
This will allow the N/W/Q to all run the bridge at once.
Then West End will be getting angry at losing service to lower Manhattan, and 4th Ave will only have one local, which isn't enough during rush hour. The M has to stay on 4th. The Q local should just be given another letter and run through the tunnel, and put the N on the bridge. So bridge routes are: N, Q express, {Q local off hours}, W, and tunnel routes are: M, Q local {except off hours}, R
Very imaginative. Can't find any faults in the plan. Hopefully there is someone on the TA team of operations planning that will see your post and take it seriously for 2004.
Yes it's true: your N train is being screwed again. The TA exec's seem to like screwing the N line. like back in '94 when they made it a 4th av. local and ran the M express on 4th av. (Horrible idea).
The N is once AGAIN cut out of the Manhattan Bridge merry-go-round. This time it was the victim of 2 brighton services and a west end service. Logical thing to do is rid that damned W of it's bridge privliges and put the N there. Or, you could make the M the brighton local, slap a few r-40's on it and the W for extra service and run the N across in place of the brighton local (Q).
Note: All you people hoping for a W to brooklyn after bridge construction: FORGET IT!!!! There will never be enough cars for that. If the W does run, it will be as a rush hours local (maybe peak dir, laying-up at City hall LL) to WHITEHALL!!! Present montague riders will take the much faster Q and N expresses across the bridge. Not only aren't there enough cars, but that would be overserving west end, and it would be pointless to run 2 broadway lines down those lines, as they are so close to each other.
I now have to go home unhappy and take it out on my wife and dogs.
Well, in 2004 after your wife and dogs are maimed, you'll have N service across the bridge!
Good, then I will have quick service out of town in order to beat the police to where I'm going. Just between you and me, I'm heading to Coney where I'll take a boat to the Bremuda Triangle. I have a secret hideout there no one knows about.
Poor dogs
You're assuming that the bridge will be fully open again in the future. I have a feeling that it will never see full service again.
-Hank
Ditto here.
The TA has said that nothing is set in stone for the bridge full-open scenario, and public hearings will be held during the several months prior to the bridge's complete reopening. The N's triumphant return is a distinct possibility.
My opinion: eliminate the M, and replace it with the W on the West End. Send the W through the tunnel, Broadway local, and up to Astoria. Send the N over the bridge and Broadway express, so you have an option at 59 St. Keep the Brighton local the way it is now, 6 Ave express, and the express the way it will be this summer, Broadway express.
I was just thinking of something, I'm not sure how practical it would be. If both sides of the bridge are open, and the N train moves to the bridge, then there would be some extra capacity in the Montague Street tubes. In this case, can we have full time J service to Coney Island? I know there's already a transfer from the J to the F at Essex, but I think this would be a way to increase J ridership, possibly. I know someone will complain that there's not enough cars for all of this, but the R143s will displace 200 or so R40/R40M/R42 cars. The next thing someone will complain about it lack of ridership, although the J train seems to have many riders even on nights and weekends.
Just an idea :)
Shawn.
If it went by Brighton, it would essentially be the old "QJ".
I don't know that it's nessesary, though.
:-) Andrew
What's necessary and what's desired are always two totally different things. I wonder how many people out there would like to see this kind of service. Maybe Straphangers could take a poll or something, they always seem to have more than enough time on their hands :)
Shawn.
The r-143 will displace 200 R-40S/40m/42 cars. But, there's this new line in queens. You may have heard of it, the V train. Plus, N trains will not go back to the bridge until 2004, not this August. That's quite a long time.
Today I saw these 2 cars with graffiti on the exterior @ Unionport Yard why is this happening again its begging to fill like the 1970's & 1980's era I thought none of the stainless steel subway cars could take graffiti why it happen to these brand 2 new subway cars?
they can take but it is easier to clean off graffitti
I actually saw a couple of R62s on the 4 in 1997 with graffiti. And don't forget, stainless steel cars like the R32s and 46s didn't escape the evil scourge of graffiti. I even saw a Metro-North M1 car in dead storage in Stamford completely covered in graffiti. It can show up on stainless steel too. It's just easier to clean it off on stainless steel.
Particularly hard hit by the graffitti scourge were the R40s, which, while laid up along the Queens IND express tracks, sufferered badly at the painters' hands. And the R44s got hit regularly too. In the bad old days, EVERY subway car had graffitti at one time or another, stainless or LAHT, R6 all the way up to R46.
The LIRR has four cars currently at HolBan yard (#9048, #9365?, #9717, #9748) which suffered fire/accident damage and each one is covered with florid, spectacular murals. AND in the same yard, some antique coaches sit splattered with spray paint.
wayne
The stainless steel cars were able to take advantage of the car washers better than the carbon steel cars back in the 1970s, since the spray paint adhered to the metal less than it did to the cars that had to be painted (and, unfortunately, to the blue doors on the R-32s). That's why the exteriors of the IRT and the R-30 and below BMT/IND cars suffered worse from the graffiti plague, while the interiors of all the cars were hit about the same.
Interesting, 6304 was hit with graffiti when it first arrived. Coincidence?
Maybe it's part of "Arts for Transit?" :)
When I saw and rode R142 #6304 it was clean and free of graffitti.
The original #6304 (the R16) escaped the graffitti scourge.
wayne
I have been working at Unionport There is more than 2 cars Hit Its more like 8 or 9 . They havent even moved those cars in 3 weeks so the artists realized the timing was right. On one 142 car ,which was moved really fast ,there was a top to bottom Piece.(covered in graffiti)
There was one Redbird consist that ran the #1 and the #2 for QUITE a while which had the entire consist spray-painted in a WONDERFUL African Jungle motif (the entire train was hit) and it was beyond beautiful, it was STUNNINGLY artful. While I was angered by the personal ego-boosting "Kilroy wuz here" of most grafitti, this one number was absolutely art on wheels. Lions, tigers, elephants, all sorts of greenery and non-urban art throughout the whole consist. And that train seemed to make the rounds throughout the IRT system as though the TA actually APPROVED of it ...
Anyone else out there ever see the "Jungle train" before it was repainted? Even the yuppie art magazines had pictures of it ...
For some reaons I'm not suprised about this. There has been a rash of 1970-1980s style graffiti making its way back in the subway system especially on the interior of cars. I have a real bad feeling that history is about to repeat itself.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
its a fact that today's juveniles are 10 times worse than back in the late 70's early 80's. history is repeating itself but don't forget that the MTA ain't havin' dat !@#%$. eventually (or until the last minute) the mta will take more drastick measures to keep it graffitti clean.
its a fact that today's juveniles are 10 times worse than back in the late 70's early 80's.
Todays adults are ten times worse with zero tolerance and other HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS. Much bigger than in the 70s and 80s.
Remember, it was in the beginning of the 70s that the voting age was lowered to eighteen, then it was in the mid-to-late 80s (1986 to be exact) that the tides had turned and the Feds blackmailed the states into raising the drinking age to 21 (now if there was no sixteenth amendment, it never would have happened).
history is repeating itself
If you're right, then hopefully the liberal movement of the 60s (hippies) is coming back. I saw a VW bus painted in psychedelic colors with stickers like GO SOLAR on it going down Fifth Avenue near 33rd the other day.
but don't forget that the MTA ain't havin' dat !@#%$. eventually (or until the last minute) the mta will take more drastick measures to keep it graffitti clean.
i think the hippie 60's is coming back in retro mode. Volkswagen is making plans to produce its microbus. you will get to see it at the New York Auto show in april at Javits center. i do agree with you that the adults are getting worse with human rights violations. look at giuliani(da dumb @$#%!). hes trying so hard to get rid of art that seems offensive of the catholic religion and fighting words with Renee Cox over "Yo Mama's Last Suppa" right there he is violating the first amendment and he's lookin' to get an ass whippin' from the federal government.
right there he is violating the first amendment and he's lookin' to get an ass whippin' from the federal government.
No, he's not. The government cannot interfere with that "art" but it is under no obligation to financially support it. He is well within his rights to terminate government funding for the sponsoring organization, although he cannot prevent the sponsoring organization from displaying it using private funds.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But he is singling them out just because of their art.
Government should stop sponsoring all the art period. This way there won't be the sticky situation of approved art and unapproved art.
oh yes he is. when he tried to stop them from coming into the museums. and also his stopping his funds to the art is a form of violation. the art is like freedom of speech and he is acting against it because he and the catholic body don't like it. he tried the same act a year ago and the higher gov't acted against him.
I was thinking more about violations against youth.
Of course, I don't think that the museum should be subsidized at all, regardless of the type of art displayed inside.
That's really Giuliani's beef, he doesn't want city funds for that art.
This may be off topic, but I have a comment about the whole issue of art as a freedom of expression.
So if depicting Christ as a naked woman or painting a picture of the Virgin Mary with elephant dung is well within the rights of the first ammendment, then I guess those rights could apply to almost anything.
What if someone was to paint a picture of Malcolm X or Martin Luther King in a similar fashion with elephant dung? Would the NAACP and Al Sharpton just accept it as 1st ammendment also? I highly DOUBT it.
What if someone was to paint a picture of Hitler or Stalin or General Mao with angel's wing's? Isn't that also accepted as freedom of speech and expression? And the anti-defamation groups would not say anything in protest? I highly DOUBT it.
I am not looking for a fight. I am simply stating a point. If the museum should get funding, it would and should also get funding no matter WHICH paintings are displayed. After all, we don't want to have a double standard, do we? Obviously many people would be offended by the paintings I described above. But in turn I as a Christian am offended by those pictures the museum has chosen to display.
If those pictures were displayed (the ones you mentioned). They should still be protected through free speech.
if they were to do such a thing as make malcom x and martin king out of elephant dung, then so be it. its art. if they were to put wings on hitler or stalin, then so be it. its art. like what renee cox did its art. its offensive,but intriguing and eye catching to the public. art is supposed to spark controversy and ideas and other thoughts. that is its nature. as for me being born into christian(moravian)it doesn't bother me at all. i know the meaning of the last supper and the virging mary. but just because they are put into altered positions or made with poop doesn't mean its defaming, for i and a majority of other people don't understand the fuss. anybody can say anything they want against anybody. as long they don't committ a crime of hate to anyone. skin heads and arian nation members condemn and slur the other races on the earth, but as long as they don't act out crimes of hate, let them keep talking. the catholic priest always condemn gays and lesbians. but aslong as they don't violate them in any way, then they can talk all they want. guliani did wrong in trying to control the art. its considered freedom of speech and he broke the law by trying to start a "decency party" and he is lookin for a fine ass whippin'
Does anybody have any details about this so-called railway somewhere down the Jersey Shore? I have heard about it, but never found any details about it.
Thanks.
It was abandoned ca 1945.
The Five Mile Beach Electric Railway was the local transit company in the Wildwood area, operating rail service from 1902 to 1945 (and continuing to operate open cars until the end, surely one of the last operators of such equipment in the U.S.)
The local operator of "trolleys" (e.g., motor-buses tarted up as old-fashioned streetcars) in Wildwood still uses this name, though I don't know if they're actually a direct descendant of the railway company.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Five Mile Beach Bus is a direct descendant of the electric railway, although I don't know if it's still in business. The last time I was in Wildwood (1993) the service was no longer operating on Pacific Ave as it had for years. Some of the last equipment on the roster were a few NJ Transit Flxible Metros which were assigned through the private operator program. Five Mile Beach also operated (and may still run)the famous 'tram cars' on the Wildwood Boardwalk.
There is a book which outlines the history of Five Mile Beach called 'The Story of Cape May County Trains and Trolleys' by Nathan Cope, printed in 1993. I bought a copy from the New Jersey NRHS a few years back (I think it was $20 or so). Fairly informative on the operations.
Hey Guys,
Taking a 1 week trip to Italy in 2 weeks. Any train related suggestions? I read Rome has a small subway system....
Rome: Couple of lines of Metro (41 km total; about 45 stations); a light rail line; suburban electric railroads; a few pictures in our section on Italy;
Naples: Two metro lines; three or four funiculars; I think also a light rail line? Some pictures in the Italy section.
Genoa: Small metro line
Milan: Large (relatively speaking) metro network (69 km; 84 stations; 71 underground) - 4 lines; Tram network still using some Peter Witt cars. Some pictures in the Italy section.
Intercity high speed rail (which they call the "Eurostar" but I'm not sure if the trains are the same as the UK-France Eurostar)
If the Peter Witts are still in near as many numbers and you'd like to experience the feel of the early days of trolleys Milan is a must.Standing outside my hotel at night hearing the sounds of those cars running in the street, the incandescent lighting in the cars, not to mention seeing the style of another age was great. Not to mention standing in the street opposite the central station and seeing these cars going by on perhaps four routes. Great.
GO VISIT THE BREDA PLANT IN ITALY AND TAKE A LOOK AT THE NEW MBTA type 8's
Thanks for the info Dave. I'm taking my digital camera and will send you some transit photos when I get back.
Doesn't Rome still have streetcars? I rode on the #12 and #14 lines when I was there in 1977 - the first time I had ever ridden on a streetcar in my life. A ride cost 50 lire back then. To top it off, the motorman on the car we took back to out hotel after dinner one night staged a half-hour strike.
Yes, Rome still has streetcars (trams).
Is one of the Naples lines the one in the McNapoli Mechanik Simulation?
Catania, which is in Sicily also boasts a tiny metro, which was opened in 1999. It is operated by FCE railway (which runs around Mt. Etna). The webpage is with a picture and brief description is
www.trainweb.org/subwaymark/transit/italy.htm
Naples has three different metro lines. The first is run by F.S. national railways to Pozzuoli with 4 underground stations. The second is a full metro line. The final is a line completed around 1991? with a fleet of LRT vehicles. It never opened to the public, but I believe the line will open soon.
I'm heading to New Orleans this week. I haven't had much of a chance to research the streetcars and other transit there, besides on this site. What should I absolutley, positively not miss, transit-wise? Any thoughts from anyone?
Obviously, ride the streetcar lines from end to end. The Riverfront line is short. The St Charles line is very picturesque.
Time permitting, a steamboat ride (with engine room visit) is worthwhile if you're a steam fan.
Enjoy.
BTW, thanks for posting your photos.
Bob
I've heard one of the streetcars goes through "the garden district." That must be the St. Charles Line. Unfortunately, rain is expected, but I hope to get some decent photographs. If I keep this up, I'll have to invest in a slide scanner and some decent scanning and photo-editing software. :O) Expect some pix and a (short, I promise) trip report next week!
There's a very nice photo of the green (PTC livery?) PCC rounding a corner from a fantrip in West Philadelphia in this months Railpace. Wish mine turned out like that. I think the museum (RTM) has scheduled a PCC charter for this Spring, which I have yet to sign up for. I've only fantripped on the Peter Witt.
KP
"A 'hobby' is an 'interest' which costs money!"
Yes, that's the St. Charles Line that runs through the Garden District. Also keep your eyes open along Canal Street. There's no revenue service on that route as of yet, but there are sometimes old trolleys doing test runs up and down the middle of the street.
Mark
If you're lucky, you might get a motorman on the St. Charles line who will give a description of the many large houses on either side of that thoroughfare. The one I had during my visit in 1994 kept emphasizing over and over that these were all single family residences. He even pointed out where Tulane Stadium, the old Sugar Bowl, once stood.
Thanks, fellas. My better half is willing to let me railfan at least part of our trip. I'll try to make it worthwhile. I figure, since one of the lines goes through the Garden District, and there are potentially chatty motormen, she might actually enjoy herself!
Question: Are these lines mainly for tourists, like the San Francisco Cable Cars, or do they actually serve public transit?
The trolleys in New Orleans are pretty touristy, but this isn't to say that local folk don't use them as well. Both lines run through areas that are big tourist draws, namely the riverfront and the Garden district. They're not how most New Orleans reisdents get to work, though.
If you want a really non-tourist New Orleans transit adventure, you can do what I did and take the bus from the airport to downtown. I was the only person on the bus who didn't work at the airport, I think. It was cool because the passengers would open the windows to talk to their friends as the bus passed them on the sidewalk. You might not want to do this at night, though, because the bus runs a truncated route after dark. This meant I had to change buses in a rather seedy part of town, far from the Spanish Moss and mansions that St. Charles trolley riders see.
Mark
The St. Charles Line was heavily utilized by locals at rush hour when I rode it 1.5 years ago.
My better half enjoyed the St. Charles line; at least she didn't complain.
Pete,
You CANNOT miss the carbarn, and I cannot emphasise this enough! When I went to New Orleans about a hear ago, David Pirman suggested it on this board. I followed his advice, and it was great!
Here's what you do: take the St. Charles Line streetcar all the way to the end of the line. About a block from the terminus, you will see a set of tracks branch off the mainline and travel down a sidestreet. Simply disembark the streetcar and follow the tracks to the transit authority's streetcar maintenance facility.
Simply the sight of this structure, and the numerous streetcars inside, was breathtaking for me and my party. We slowly ventured inside until someone asked if they could help us. We said we heard that tours were given of the facility, and the person directed us to the manager of the building.
This man was extremely friendly, and gave us a PERSONAL tour of the entire building! He showed us where they build new streetcars from scratch, the huge woodshop, a painting facility and other areas. Also, he gave us several free posters and brochures from when the Riverfront line opened.
Wanna know the best part? It's FREE! That's right, no charge at all for this tour.
It was my favorite part of the trip to New Orleans. Be sure to check it out.
--Brandon Bostian
Go to the French Quarter, find a place that serves Aligator Sausage.
I has a cajun name, it's made with gator,rice and seasonings...
GOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooD.
avid
What year was the Simpson Station rebuilt? What was the cause of the fire? I've heard many diferent stories including arson.
It's actually Intervale that was rebuilt. In 1989, some yahoos firebombed Intervale and 2 and 5 trains skipped it for about three years until it was finally reopened and completely rebuilt. All Simpson got were elevators for handicapped accessibility but was never set on fire and retains most of its original look.
IIRC Intervale station burned as the aftermath of a robbery attempt. The yahoos tried to rob the clerk, with the modern booths almost an impossibility. So they firebombed the booth. Even if non-combustible the heat from the fire [bomb] caused the door to stick shut and she almost didn't escape. How some good Samaritan was able to break in and save her I don't know.Exactly why so much of the station was burned I don't know. The perpetrators must have been well "armed" or should I say fueled?
Stop putting re: in the beginning of the subjects on your messages, it just doubles up the re.
What does Flanders Street and Simpson Sts have in common?
One is at 742 Evergreen Terrace, the other is next door.
Is there a flanders station in portland Or. from what I understand flanders street is a major road.
I guess Portland is a lot more religious than The Bronx.
Flanders Street Station is the Main Railroad/Subway Station in Melbourne Australia. BTW, That is where you catch the train to Brighton Beach
"Is there a flanders station in portland Or. from what I understand flanders street is a major road."
There is a Flanders way out east on Long Island by Riverhead. But alas, no subway or "el" there !
Bill "Newkirk"
take a look at some of the street names that intersect NW 23rd street in portland: BURNSide, flanders, lovejoy, quimby. apparently, matt groening grew up or spent some time in portland and named some of his characters after the streets there.
On topic, please....
OK. The Simpsons once had an episode where they knocked on monorails.
:-) Andrew
They also had a couch gag with a subway station: EVERGREEN TERRACE and one in which a car drove down into the stairs for the THIRD STREET STATION.
It was a street sweeper amd two non-consecutive referances to a Springfield Subway verifies its existance.
You are correct, Matt Groening is from Portland, Or.
Peace,
ANDEE
Back on topic, has anyone ever seen this Simpsons episode? In the opening segment, they all run into their living room, only it's not a living room, but a subway station. It's done in elaborate old-NYC style tile reading "EVERGREEN TERRACE". I've only seen it once.
Mark
Back on topic, has anyone ever seen this Simpsons episode? In the opening segment, they all run into their living room, only it's not a living room, but a subway station. It's done in elaborate old-NYC style tile reading "EVERGREEN TERRACE". I've only seen it once.
I recall it too, some years ago.
While on the subject of the Simpsons, it's interesting to note how the writers are careful not to place Springfield in any particular part of the country. It's everywhere and nowhere, so to speak.
Here are a few examples of Springfield's location:
In one episode, Homer points to Chicago as the location of Springfield, the Lisa goes "No, Springfield is here" just when Bart blocks the map with his head.
Marge calls a number and gives her address just as Mrs. Flanders walks in towards the end: "742 Evergreen Terrace, Springfield, Oh hiya Maude!"
When Homer and Bart go to the Edison museum in New Jersey, the exit from the highway they use points to a number of states all over the country (incl Texas and New Jersey).
In the "Behind the Laughs" episode, they're called a Southern Missouri family.
Also, the school was ranked the the Wost in Missuori...before it was moved to Springfield.
Anyway Springfield is in Ohio.
"Anyway Springfield is in Ohio. "
Let's not go there I have seen threds on this topic get hundreds of post with nothing said.
>>>Anyway Springfield is in Ohio. <<<
There is a Springfield in every one of the 48 contiguous United States. That's the joke.
Peace,
ANDEE
I've done research and Springfield Ohio most closely matches the evidence.
Actually, no. In a recent episode, they actually revealed that it was Springfield, Kentucky. Plus, there is a Shelbyville, KY right down the road from Springfield, KY. Transit angle -- Monorail! Monorail!Monorail!
What episode was this?
I'll have to ask my son when I get home. It was this season.
That would explain the presence of Cletus the slack jawed yockel!!
Actually, no. In a recent episode, they actually revealed that it was Springfield, Kentucky. Plus, there is a Shelbyville, KY right down the road from Springfield, KY. Transit angle -- Monorail! Monorail!Monorail!
Isn't it near the Wiggums Interlocking?
Peace,
ANDEE
D'oh! Another "The Simpsons" joke! There's enough of those on the WPR line in the Bronx (guess where? of course, @ Simpson St.)
That would be the West Farms line.
i am saddened to have observed john's experience here on subtalk radio... john's posts frequently reflected one individual's experience with the transit system put in a very personal context of what was going on in his life... perhaps in innocence or need, he let too much of his personal life hang out... in innocence, he didn't realize that here at subtalk radio, it's issues and people's opinions that are in the forefront...
i write this not to condemn anyone... i write this out of my own concern for what the internet means in my own life, and how the internet's shallowness and my own shallowness distress me... i bring a very personal connection to subways, buses, elevators and the internet... i dwell in my own chilly isolated world...
i honor the moments on subtalk when someone has opened up and i've gotten a glimpse of the soul of the person posting... i remember clearly sea beach fred once describing his feelings riding a fast moving sea beach express... he wasn't afraid because the train was a friend... that touched me and i felt that fred is a kindred spirit...
john... i have witnessed some of your pain and seeking that you have expressed here... i have left subtalk myself in anger several times... putting all the issues aside, i hope that you and i and everyone else here can find places of safety and meaning in our lives...
The storm here in the greater Boston area is having an effect on MBTA operations. Downtown Boston has about 3-6" of snow, but that increases markedly in the northerns, western, and southwestern suburbs. About 15 miles away in the Route 128 corridor (where I live), we have about 15" now. And 15 miles further northwest, it's well over two feet. Here's the 8:19am MBTA operations summary from their Web site:
Blue:
All service trains are running on or near schedule.
Red:
All service trains are running on or near schedule.
Orange:
All service trains are running on or near schedule.
Green:
Due to fallen trees (weather related) the D Line between Riverside and Reservior, expect some delays. Emergency Personnel in area
clearing trees.
Bus:
The following buses are running on snow routes-24-50-62-67-78-84-93-110-111-112-120-411-429-433-441-442 Please be advised that private carriers are curtailing their service due to adverse weather conditions. Please check with your service provider.
Commuter:
Lowell and Needham Commuter Rail lines will experience approximately 30-45 minute delays getting into Boston due to weather
related operational problems.There are 20 minute delays on Franklin Lines due to crossing gates down. Haverhill commuter rail trains
are experiencing 45-60 minute delays. Haverhill line train #253 and 258 will not run but the 205 outbound will make all stops. Haverhill
line 206 will be 30 - 45 mins delayed. Framingham 30 - 40 mins late, due to weather. Fitchburg trains are running 15-20 minutes
behind schedule, and Gloucester service is delayed 30-45 minutes.Attleboro and Stoughton service is running 15-20 minutes behind schedule.
Water:
All water transportation for Tuesday, March 6th has been cancelled. Commuters should seek alternate transportation. MBTA will
provide notification of the resumption of services.
The weekly mass transit newsletter I receive reported:
Schumer said at a February press conference in Mineola. "My proposal rewards commuters who choose mass transit and makes drivers think twice about getting in their cars.
Hmmm sounds good to me. Anyone think he has a alternate adgenda ?
Mr t__:^)
What exactly was the proposal?
What follows is some lifted text from the "Tri-State Transportation Campain's" Issue #307, of 3/5/01, by Kristen Fountain and others.
[A bill introduced by NY Senator Charles Schumer would
increase the amount of pre-tax income employees could
set-aside for mass transit and van-pooling fares. The bill,
"the Commuter Benefits Equity Act" which Schumer
introduced with Sen. John Warner of Virginia, a senior
Republican on the Environment and Public Works
Committee, would hike the monthly pre-tax transit
spending ceiling to $175 per month starting in 2002.]
Copyright Disclaimer: I have lifted less then 400 words & identified the publication and author.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, since Schumer lives and grew up in Brooklyn, I'm sure he values the need for mass transit issues.
I met him on a few occassions years ago, and while I felt he comes off as a career politican -- more than others of his ilk -- has a genuine interest in doing the right thing for commuters.
BMTman
Isn't his wife head of NYC DOT?
Peace,
ANDEE
Me thinks you're on zee money...
BMTman
Me thinks she's my boss, or at least pays the bills since I work for a private company.
Mr t__:^)
Chuckie is a politician! He'd sound like "A Mass Transit Advocate" if he found the MTA was serving free balogna sanwiches & milk at a luncheon for transit advocates.
Chuckie is a politician! He'd sound like "A Mass Transit Advocate" if he found the MTA was serving free balogna sanwiches & milk at a luncheon for transit advocates.
I wouldn't. I'd wait for them to offer free pastrami sandwiches and Coke. At least salami and apple juice.
That's tomorrow at PS 248 - The 2nd annual manager's conference.....
LOL!!!
You guys are a riot!
BMT(sandwich)man
I was expecting the managers to get filet mignon and champagne.
And I think we deserve it too.....
...you guys deserve week-old White Castle Burgers...;-)
Just Kidding, TD.
BMTman
I'd take the white castle - (extra pickel and ketchup, thanks) if I didn't have to listen to the speeches.
Several years ago I bought my boss at the time a White Castle Burger paper weight for a Christmas gag (he's Jewish ... it comes in one of those boxes & looks like the real thing). Anyhow, I knew he liked the real thing ... it is still on his desk.
Mr t__:^)
Does anybody know why Newark PCC #16, the work car, has 2 pantographs? Is there some equipment on board which must draw power for some purpose, necessitating another pick-up besides the pan used to power the car itself? Or is it simply a back-up? I remember seeing work cars on my Coney Island shop tour which had extra 3rd rail shoes. Same concept?
How is this for a guess, they was the test car and they tested the placement of where the Pan would go??
(Is that the number one answer?)
The extra pan may be a sleet cutter. Here in Baltimore, two of our LRVs have 2 pans, one (the regular on the number one end) is the pickup and the other (on the number two end) is a sleet cutter.
I can hear Richard Dawson now: "Survey said!!!"
Just as long as nobody wants to phone a friend I s'pose ...
I noticed the "Special" sign on the front. My guess is this the work PCC? Maybe the two pans for back up moves?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, it's the work car. It was running back and forth on the line all day that day, but I didn't notice it backing up. If I'd thought about it, I'd have paid more attention. Notice the metal gaskets on the front windshield. Compare to the rubber ones on the revenue PCCs in (the) other photos of the NCS PCCs.
Why would it need 2 pantographs for backup moves? Isn't a pantograph "omnidirectional"? Our Regional rail MU single Units have only one pantograph, on the married pairs there is only one pantograph, and it is on the "A" car. SEPTA's Suburban Kawasaki double-ended cars only have one pantograph. IMO, having more than one Pantograph is just a waste of roof space.
Like I said, could the second pan be a sleet cutter?
On Monday, March 05, the three car train of PCC "L" cars made a successful round trip out onto the "L" structure. Officially referred to over the radio as "the training train", cars 22, 6655/ 6656 journeyed from Skokie Shops to Howard to Clark JCT and then downtown to the Loop. Feeling their "oats" the train travelled north to Clark JCT and then turned, going all the way to Kimball. Since the Kimball layup pocket was occupied, the training train immdiately departed for a return to Skokie, turning from SB to NB at Clark JCT. The cars now await their debut in the filming scenes of the movie "Ali."
And at least for these three cars, among the dozens of similar museum residents, they got to once more again "rattle the steel columns and beams of the "L". It was a long long way from the cornfields.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
Have these cars been repainted in their original colors, of merucury green and cream?
From what I heard they're in town for a movie shoot, repainted green and WHITE!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
That would be appropriate for the late 60s. Most of the 6000s had been repainted green and white by then.
COOL my favorite 'subway' cars!
The cars remain painted as they were received from Illinois Railway Museum, in the charcoal, silver, scheme from the late 80's. There is no plan to repaint them for the filming, whatsoever. Now if you really, really, want the cars repainted, I am sure IRM will accept cash contributions to that end. Graham Garfield's Chicago "L" site should be putting up some video captures.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
And even if they were repainted for the filming of Ali, it wouldn't be in the original 1950s mercury green, croydon cream, and swamp holly orange. The scenes in Ali take place in the late 1960s, so they would be in the mint green and alpine white scheme. But as Dave Harrison said, they have not been repainted and it looks unlikely right now...
Also as Dave said, I will post posting pics of the training run yesterday on my site tonight or tomorrow morning, at the latest.
Graham Garfield
http://Chicago-L.org
And I'm sure Hollyweird won't much care and many people won't notice the improper paint scheme - if I had a nickel for every Toronto or LA subway train I see claiming to be NYCTA ... well ... I'd have a lot of nickels. :)
You can say that again!
Wonder if it'll be possible for a CERA fantrip aboard them on CTA territory before they go back ....
It would be cool!
--Mark
Maybe CTA might consider a San Fran. F line type thing, if nothing else like a saturday shopper or shuttle service where these 6000's could do a weekly stint in a part time service. Wouldn't expect a daily like the Frisco F line. Never hurts to keep cars active to a degree? Not that I've ever been a big fan of them. 4000's yes!
Speaking of the 4000s, I had a dream about them the other night. I was actually riding on them, and they got up to 50 mph along that nice straight stretch between, oh, Grandville and Wilson. They even had speedometers! Their bull and pinion gears were wailing away; IIRC they had spur-cut gears.
Too bad I never got to ride on them when they were still on the Evanston Express.
There are photos (video captures, actually) of the crew training run of the IRM PCCs on the "L" at http://Chicago-L.org/news.html. Enjoy!
Graham Garfield
http://Chicago-L.org
Indeed they had the spur cut gears and sounded like R1-9, Low-V etc. To my knowledge all the original traction equipment had them New York except for some locomotives. Like New York Centrals T1,2,3 which were bipolars like Milwaukee bipolars,,the armatures were mounted on the axles and on each side was a field pole, hence bi-polar.
Another nice stretch was when they had the skip stops on lake, 4000's and lots of straight iron. Cool man. BTW the 4000's live at IRM and are alive and running.
I know IRM has at least four 4000s in the yellow and green livery I remember. There is a photo of all four lashed up as a train on the mainline, trolley poles raised. Hopefully, someday I'll make it out to Union when they're out on the mainline. And if Green Hornet 4391 happened to be running on the loop track, it would be icing on the cake. Now, if the Electroliner happened to be running that day...
Implementation of Winter Operations Plans is based on forecasts prepared by the National Weather Service.
Plan 1 - Temperatures forecast between 30 degrees and 11 degrees F.
RTO will continue normal schedules.
Train cutting will be discontinued.
Trains stored in the open will be 'cut-in' (top-side charged) .
Plan 2 - Temperatures forecast at 10 degrees F and lower.
GOs and work trains will be cancelled where needed.
Operate maximum lenght trains on all lines except OPTO lines.
Trains will be relocated to underground storage locations.
Express trains will make all Local stops underground.
Plan 3 - Forecast of ice storm, sleet and freezing rain.
GOs and work trains will be cancelled where needed.
Operate maximum lenght trains on all lines except OPTO lines.
Trains will be relocated to underground storage locations.
Express trains will make all Local stops underground.
Department of Subways Storm Control Center activated.
Local Storm Fighting Centers activated.
All Ice Storm fighting equipment prepared for activation.
Plan 4 - Forecast of snow -5 inches or more.
GOs and work trains will be cancelled where needed.
Operate maximum lenght trains on all lines except OPTO lines.
Trains will be relocated to underground storage locations.
Express trains will make all Local stops underground.
Express service may be discontinued in open areas.
Department of Subways Storm Control Center activated.
Local Storm Fighting Centers activated.
All Ice Storm fighting equipment prepared for activation.
I disagree with the cold weather plans. Because why put Express Trains Local when doing a bad strom? MTA don't do that.
Dominick Bermudez.
The express trains are put on the local track because the equipment normally stored in the yards is stored underground on the express tracks.
-Stef
This was the case last night:
1) M lay ups backed up the West End until 71st Street, must have been 6 8 car sets, all waiting to line up to get into the 4th Avenue Express Track
2) B lay ups already on the express track between 36th and 59th Sts.
3) Several more "B" lay ups going North on the IND subway at Bergen and Carroll Streets.
Anyone know where specific lay ups are uhm, laid up under the cold weather plan?
I never understood plan 4 (or 3 for that matter) when it says
"express trains will make local stops underground" I have NEVER found this to be true on the D train btwn. 125/59 during phase III or IV....Most recently Monday and Tuesday early AM (3) and earlt PM (1300)
Peace,
ANDEE
They will make local stops in areas where the express tracks are used to store trainsets not in service. Since I don't know where the snowbirds lay up in the B Div, I suppose it is possible that ther are none along that section of CPW so the expresses can run express.
I was going to ask about the 8th Ave. express tracks. Are they ever used for storage during a cold weather plan? They sure weren't 30+ years ago during the winter while the Broadway express tracks were.
I board my Q train at Brighton and get the front window. I zoom by the lumbering D on the local.
Across the Manhattan bridge the flakes fly, and makes for a calming, peaceful scene.
Then it's into the dash. As we decend below the local tracks my ears pop, and tunnel lights are merely a blur. I get off at 42nd and catch the 7 train. I ran to the head end, and lucky me, no one had the window.
The elevated run was a pretty sight, snow blanketed the elevated structure. I get to Flushing and wait for N21. Driver says "no one shoveled Sea Cliff out, so we just run to Roslyn".
Well we can all just wonder about the conclusion.
This is the new and improved John. This Slant R40 has been cleaned of all off-topic stuff and welcomes you. The window is new and unscratched, and this train is ready to roll.
Trains are what bring us together, and that is what I'll stick to.
I'm glad to be back! :-)
Heck you must have just missed the 7:58 Bravo Stillwell BIE at West 4th this morning around 9am.
I was staring out my slant's windown at red signals :-P
S o m e h o w . . .I KNEW you'd be back...lol...WELCOME back!
Peace,
ANDEE
welcome back... great choice of car and handle... i went in on a q this morning and returned on one in the early afternoon... a car with a distinctive look and a soul...
Qtraindash7,
Hmmm......You're from Sea Cliff aren't you ? Wondering why the (Q) train handle. Any association with the (Q) or Brighton Line ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The Q is by favorite B division line. The 7 is my favorite A division line.
"The Q is by favorite B division line. The 7 is my favorite A division line."
I was hoping you would have a direct connection to the Brighton Line like me,#1 BrightonExp Bob, Paul Matus and DougBMTman.
We need more Brighton people to overwhelm our Sea Beach friend from the Left Coast in Arcadia !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Brighton always !
Bill,
I am a Brighton man living in San Francisco now. I grew up on the Q then the D line from Sheepshead Bay.
The Brighton line has more diversity (Q and D now, previously Q, QB, and QT) then just the one line N.
ScottinSF
Love It guys, Slow Beach Fred will never live this down
Sounds like Subway Wars to me.:-)
Sounds like it's time to top charge that money train car. :)
Ummm ... unintended, but my entire TA career was spent on the D train in 1971 if that counts ... Sheepshead Bay, Kings Highway, Newkirk, Church, Prospect Park, 7th Ave, Atlantic, mighty Dekalb where we often sat and rotted just outside for the lowly B to pass, Grand, Bway/Lafayette and on and on and on to 205th.
I was kinda partial to it even though being a Bronx boy, it was still the Concourse line. Granted, it wasn't the QB or QT but that was my train too. And all my runs started out of Brighton or Stillwell rather than the end I lived on. :)
Haha, still holding (gaping) at DeKalb but they release ya to sit at a red light so the B can go first via bypass track. Happens ALL DA TIME!!!
Glad to see things don't change.
DeKalb was always an amazing hold no matter what time of day it seemed (though I was one of those who had the rush hour only pick so I could do ten hour days) ... and at the time, nothing blew by on the inside tracks to relieve the load on DeKalb. Of course, I was the one who made the train tardy when we got to the other end. :)
Don't for get me!
Well, here's yet another addition to the long list of Q fans.
Yeah, but there's simply nothing like that #3 line as it runs express through Manhattan and you watch local station after station whizzing by at dizzying speeds, esp. now with continuous welded rail and near extinction of "spotted" wheels. These give the #3 the illusion of just kind of gliding or floating through effortlessy. -Peace, Thomas :-)
The 3 (or 2) express on the West Side IRT is definately a close runner up to the 7. The speed is amazing, that seems like one of the fastest runs on the system.
Its not only the speed on the 7X, it is the front end view coming into the city that is great also
Yeah, especially on the 7th Ave. straightaway. Even the Redbirds glide effortlessly. I still wish I'd been on that R-142 train that got up to 62. Holy Toledo! Too bad that straightaway isn't 5 miles long.
5.5 inches on the ground here in Sea Cliff. The LIRR appears to be running fine according to all sources. The fires are burnin' at the switches to keep them functional. Suffolk is gonna get near a foot of snow, so problem areas are probably going to be around Ronkonkoma later.
LI Bus has scattered delays, mainly on the north shore.
It's still snowing, but this train has got to get out of the yard.
Maybe I'll say hi to some redbirds.
5.5 inches on the ground here in Sea Cliff. The LIRR appears to be running fine according to all sources. The fires are burnin' at the switches to keep them functional. Suffolk is gonna get near a foot of snow, so problem areas are probably going to be around Ronkonkoma later.
I got a train from Ronkonkoma at 8:31 this morning, and it was right on time. Parking lots at Ronkonkoma and other stationed seems to be at about one-half normal volume. On the other hand, my train was SRO by the time it got to Hicksville; as I usually take an earlier train, I don't know how this compared to normal.
There were close to ten inches of snow this morning where I am in Medford, and it was still coming down quite heavily.
I managed to get out too. The N21 bus both ways between Flushing ran right on time, since ridership was lighter than normal. I managed to get to Flushing easily. I took the 7 train just a short distance to Junction. There seemed to be less trains, but the Corona yard looked empty. I did see a Flushing bound train running on the express track, but I just missed it at Junction and caught the local. The trains still seemed fairly crowded, as well the buses in Flushing. Still less people were walking around, it was getting nasty by 4pm with heavier snow and wind.
Even though it was snowing throughout the afternoon, there has been little additional accumulation due to the higher March sun angle and borderline temps. Still got about 6 inches of the white stuff. Some roads are beginning to ice up.
Heard on WCBS 880 that there was a fire in one of Amtrak's East River tunnels, I wonder how that affected LIRR service.
Amtrak's been having alot of trouble recently, yesterday due to some problems one of the Hudson river tunnels was closed. This is not weather related.
One more wierd thing I saw while on the Manhattan bound 7 on track 1, there was steam coming from near a switch just before the Roosevelt ave tunnel ends. I've seen it before. I assume it's some kind of switch heater.
Just asking one more time before I give up the search. I want to purchase one of the gum machines that used to be in the NYC subway system in the late 50's & 60"s. Does anyone have a clue for me?
Thanks.
I heard, recently, on this very site, that there was one one on EBAY but it's heritage was questionable. Around $350 IIRC.
Peace,
ANDEE
I heard, recently, on this very site, that there was one on EBAY but it's heritage was questionable. Around $350 IIRC.
Peace,
ANDEE
You can try any one of the numerous antique shops in the city. Try the yellow pages before hoofing it to every antiqye shop out there. Maybe you'll find it.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm taking an informal poll:
Do you think any part of the 2nd Avenue subway will be built within the next 25 years?
I'd love to say yes, but given the City's historical foot-dragging, I have to say no.
Anyone?
I'm going to go out on a limb and say yes, if only because they've run out of excuses. Of course, that dosen't mean ALL of it will be built. I think we may get the northern part in in that time.
:-) Andrew
(I'm going to go out on a limb and say yes, if only because they've run out of excuses. Of course, that dosen't mean ALL of it will be built. I think we may get the northern part in in that time.)
It's all of nothing. Any significant improvments are politically impossible, because other funding priorities have more clout, the process/lawyer lobby holds things up forever, the Pataki debt is huge, and the construction industry charges so much the MTA can barely afford a state of good repair. Under current conditions, all you get are studies.
If these other interests are defeated, and someone other than the riders pays back the Pataki debt, yoiu get the whole line.
[the construction industry charges so much the MTA can barely afford a state of good repair]
This is something I really don't understand. If the LA subway was $250 million per mile -- I mean, I can understand a discrepancy, but how can they get away with this? Say we're talking 10 miles -- the LA price tag would come out to $2-1/2 billion. Even if that were *doubled* it would still be affordable -- tacking 50c on to the fare for a few years would do it without incurring significant debt.
But I hear figures like $13 billion for a full-length line. I don't see how even Boss Tweed could get away with that . . .
(This is something I really don't understand. If the LA subway was $250 million per mile -- I mean, I can understand a discrepancy, but how can they get away with this? Say we're talking 10 miles -- the LA price tag would come out to $2-1/2 billion. Even if that were doubled* it would still be affordable -- tacking 50c on to the fare for a few years would do it without incurring significant debt.)
Learning what the problem is one one reason I took a budget job at NYCT. Here is what I have learned so far:
1) Building something new is cheaper than rehab, which is what the TA does. Building on or connecting to an operating line causes massive construction slowdowns. This doesn't explain the Second Avenue cost, however.
2) The railroad industry is half-dead, so the MTA is dealing with a limited number of contractors who can do the work. They aren't as well capitalized and efficient, and charge more.
3) I'm reading the contract for a signal replacement on part of a line. It goes on for four volumes. The first volume is federal and state purchasing laws. Every group in existence has added a clause saying that public contractors must do this or that. Just monitoring all these requirements costs money.
4) The other three volumes has clauses in it like "contractor will not leave debris on the right of way" and "contractor will not reuse parts they remove (ie. old wire at the end of it's useful life." I imagine every one of these clauses is inserted as a result of a nasty ripoff in the past.
Other things I've heard involve the neighbors -- you cannot do construction in a way that bothers them anymore -- and safety -- not killing off your workers slows things down. But you'd think that 60 years of additional technology would offset these factors.
But you'd think that 60 years of additional technology would offset these factors.
The answer is simple, at least for signals, they are avoiding the technology of the last 60 years.
Still, as Josh pointed out, if New York estimates subway construction costs at something like four to five times the price that L.A. does, then something is seriously wrong with the whole process here. You would expect expenses to be higher here, but not at those levels.
if New York estimates subway construction costs at something like four to five times the price that L.A. does,...
The LA subway came in on budget?
I don't think it did, but even with overruns it was cheaper per mile than what New York proposes to pay.
I'll give a guess at what will actually happen here, under the best possible circumstances. 63rd Street to 86th Street will open in 2008, 86th Street to 125th Street in 2012, and 63rd Street to Whitehall Street (probably in two phases) by about 2020. There is no intrinsic reason it couldn't be done faster, but funding problems make this about the best we can hope for.
[Other things I've heard involve the neighbors -- you cannot do construction in a way that bothers them anymore -- and safety -- not killing off your workers slows things down. But you'd think that 60 years of additional technology would offset these factors.]
And none of it explains why LA built their subway for so much less.
Of course costs in NYC are higher, and construction in Manhattan more difficult -- but how does that account for a factor of five?
[Of course costs in NYC are higher, and construction in Manhattan more difficult -- but how does that account for a factor of five? ]
If you look at the ESA DEIS materials on MTA-s web site, you can see that most of the tunneling is either TBM or mining, mostly throgh bedrock, no utilities to relocate... Also didn't most of the utility relocation take place in the end of sixties anyway.
Note current TBM is not more expensive that cut and cover anywhere.
Arti
But mining and blasting is expensive - and takes longer, as WMATA found out. It also involves safety measures which must be carefully and rigorously observed, for obvious reasons.
There's not that much mining, in mainly connecting the 63rd Street to the 2nd Avenue, probably the only alternative. And then Uptown to connect existing cut and cover section to Lexindton (probably again no other choice.)
Arti
"There's not that much mining, in mainly connecting the 63rd Street to the 2nd Avenue, probably the only alternative. And then Uptown to connect existing cut and cover section to Lexindton (probably again no other choice.)"
If I recall correctly, much of Manhattan is schist rock (spelling?). You're saying that a TBM could handle most of that?
[If I recall correctly, much of Manhattan is schist rock (spelling?). You're saying that a TBM could handle most of that? ]
Yes! In Scandinavia they have an extensive experience in that.
Take a look at http://www.tunnelbuilder.com/
Also from MTA web site, they already have decided to do so:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/mesa/pdf/fig2-09.pdf
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/mesa/pdf/fig2-10.pdf
Arti
[Also didn't most of the utility relocation take place in the end of sixties anyway.]
I'm not sure -- but I've heard that Second Avenue has been kept relatively free of utilities, so that makes sense.
I would be extremely surprised if any is ever built. The last chance for actually getting anything done was squandered over 25 years ago. Today nothing can get built because of environmental issues, neighborhood opposition, greedy unions and meddlesome politicians, and last but not least a nearly complete loss of NYC's "can-do" spirit.
Yes... to me it looks like the G was about to cross
that river.. and become the 2nd Avenue Subway...
before tucking it's neck back eastward..
I say the northern part will be built within 10 years. There seems to be the political will to do it. All they need (and I admit it's a big "all") is to nail down the funding.
I, for one, anxiously await having a front row seat for the construction!
...but I'm not holding my breath.
With New York City, it's where there's a will (or a consent order), there's a way. If there is enough public demand, the line will be built. If the public waivers, New York City isn't going to do something it doesn't have to.
I'll go ahead and speculate that ground is broken on a stubway.
MATT-2AV
Yes, something will be built. However, it will be 100% useless. When they start constructing the LIRR's ESA project they will probably dig a bit extra in the vicinity of 2nd ave.
I expect if the subway is to be constructed it will be opened in small sections, IE: 72nd street, 5 years later 86th, 5 more years... you get the idea. Lots of double crossovers will end up in the final stages.
(Yes, something will be built. However, it will be 100% useless. When they start constructing the LIRR's ESA project they will probably dig a bit extra in the vicinity of 2nd ave.)
You're right there. Then can't build LIRR to GCT without doing some 2nd Avenue work in the vicinity. Perhaps they'll do one station before a "fiscal crisis" and "other priorities" force a stop. The first 2nd Avenue station had better be designed as a terminal.
You're actually pretty close to the truth. The MTA has specified that there be crossovers so that the first two stations - 72nd Street and 86th Street - could be opened as the initial segment. They might actually get that much done and then be hung up for a while.
Thus you could have a Broadway(BMT)-63rd Street-86th Street/2nd Ave. route at the start.
Hey. It's something. It's a place to take the Broadway Q so you could transfer between it and the F at Lexington/63rd. And it would service a significant number of upper east siders.
:-) Andrew
I have recently taken a large number of slides of TTC streetcars and a few subway shots and even a few bus shots (mmmm fishbowls).
If anyone has SEPTA, MUNI or MBTA streetcar (trolley), trolleybus or subway slides, either current or historical and would like to trade for some TTC shots, please email me.
I have streetcar shots of every route, day and night with good quality.
I am only interested in TRADING slides and not buying or selling.
Thank you
Rob
Unfortunately, Philly, although much later than most cities, has abandoned most of its streetcar lines. Other than the 4 or 5 West Philly Green Line Routes (which, I admit, are probably longer than most cities' "light rail systems,") there is only the Christmas Trolley, a stub of the Route 23 trolley. There is perennial talk of reviving the Girard Ave. Line, with "Western-style" light rail vehicles, but I doubt it will happen. You can thank General Motors Corp. for their enlightenedness, and then SEPTA for their forward vision.
I really enjoy what's left of the Philly trolley system. At 112 cars, it's not very big, but it is a street running, trolley poled, single unit streetcar system. It should not be overlooked because it isn't what it once was or because the scenery on many parts of the system is not so nice.
I would certainly be interested in slids of the K cars in action - particularly on the 10 line.
What were the K cars?
The "K" means Kawasaki. I actually drove one on an open house at the Elmwood depot one day. Talk about 7th heaven!
Chuck Greene
As TCG said the K cars are the current SEPTA trolleys manufactured by Kawasaki
For a visual click
Here
You remember... they came from Chrysler... the Plymouth unReliant and the Dodge fAries :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interestingly enough, I just got some slides back from Kodak yesterday and the picture I took of a streetcar next to a Damn Dart came out quite well.
...next to a Damn Dart...
I owned and drove two of them over the years, plus three Valiants, a Duster, an Aspen, and an unReliant, not including the fleet of Darts that a friend and I purchased and resold many years ago (150 1965 two door sedans, three 1966 wagons, and three 1967 Valiant four door sedans, for which I paid a grand total of $1500 - and we had 72 hours to move them all from where they sat - quite an adventure which I won't detail here other than to say that over the next few months we profited to the tune of about $10K each, this in the early '70s when that was a nice chunk of change). Really not a bad bunch of cars, but not as good as the FoMoCo products I've been driving for the past twenty years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
These don't fall under any category, just little questions that come to my mind:
1) How did the Q end up Brighton express? Up until the latest bridge problem, it was QB and went local, and the D went express. Right now, the Q serves far less stops than the D and should therefore be made Brighton local.
2) Why does the Brighton local, whatever it is, go to Coney Island? The exp usually goes farther than the local. I can understand the 3/4, because the express tracks end at Utica, but on the Brighton, the express tracks go all the way through. The D should just go to Coney and run exp, with the Q starting at Brighton Bch running local.
3) Why doesn't the Brighton exp continue to Ocean Pkwy at least?
4) Why did the following take place:
a) the switching of north terminals of the B and C trains on CPW
b) the switching of the N/R north terminals
c) the switching of the 2/3 south terminals, as well as the 5 going to Flatbush instead of Utica
d) the switching of the J or QJ going on to the Brighton to the M
e) the M going to Marcy Ave when the Williamsburg Br was closed instead of the J, when the J goes to Manhattan instead of the M on off-hours
1) How did the Q end up Brighton express? Up until the latest bridge problem, it was QB and went local, and the D went
express. Right now, the Q serves far less stops than the D and should therefore be made Brighton local.
I don't know
2) Why does the Brighton local, whatever it is, go to Coney Island? The exp usually goes farther than the local. I can
understand the 3/4, because the express tracks end at Utica, but on the Brighton, the express tracks go all the way through.
The D should just go to Coney and run exp, with the Q starting at Brighton Bch running local.
Tradition. The Brighton Express, no matter what train it is, always terminates at Brighton Beach.
3) Why doesn't the Brighton exp continue to Ocean Pkwy at least?
Why should it
4) Why did the following take place:
a) the switching of north terminals of the B and C trains on CPW
So R32s would not have to be stored at Concorse
b) the switching of the N/R north terminals
No yard for the R trains while the N had access to both Jamacia and Coney Island
c) the switching of the 2/3 south terminals, as well as the 5 going to Flatbush instead of Utica
2/3 for the same reason as the N/R. I don't know about the 5 but it probably has to do with the 2/3 switch.
d) the switching of the J or QJ going on to the Brighton to the M
e) the M going to Marcy Ave when the Williamsburg Br was closed instead of the J, when the J goes to Manhattan instead of
the M on off-hours
I don't know either
So what's the problem with the Concourse Yard storing R32s? They only like R68s there?
:-) Andrew
Money dude, why have to store parts for that type car in multi-locations. Why have a need for repair people to specialize in two different car types at two different locations.
(How is that for a guess)
I believe having the C go to Bedford Pk and the B to 168th created variety. North of dekalb, the B and D follow the same exact route now, and north of Euclid, the A and C follow the same, that's like saying run the 2 and 3 to Flatbush and the 4 and 5 to Utica/New Lots.
It did. But as Lou said, it costs less money to have two different car types at a yard. Now, Concourse only has R68s and thus, fewer parts need to be transported from place to place. There are other reasons, too.
I believe having the C go to Bedford Pk and the B to 168th created variety. North of dekalb, the B and D follow the same exact route now, and north of Euclid, the A and C follow the same, that's like saying run the 2 and 3 to Flatbush and the 4 and 5 to Utica/New Lots. Also, to answer your questions:
"Tradition. The Brighton Express, no matter what train it is, always terminates at Brighton Beach." Why?
"3) Why doesn't the Brighton exp continue to Ocean Pkwy at least?
Why should it" It is an express stop and would prevent anybody who would like to get there from waiting for a local they may have passed at Parkside
It appears as though no one has answered your questions. So i'll try.
1)even though the Q serves less stops than the D, they run it express because it makes more sense to run it express weekdays than to run it local weekdays and then switch the D to local on weekends (confusion for riders)
2) Ever tried to turn a local at brighton beach? Real messy. The train would have to cross over the express tracks. LIVE express tracks. Over 3 X switches. BIG waste of time
3)there really is no reason to run the Q one extra stop, especially when they LAY-up trains on those express tracks between Ocean Pkwy. and Brighton Beach ( i don't mean the lay-up tracks)
4a). No r-32's in Concourse
b)No yard access for R train
c)That's a long route for the 2, 241 to new lots. Would require running a mixed fleet. The 3 has lennox yard, so that is not a reason, but generally you don't want to run a long line. Exception A line, because ridership on rockaway is picking up. The 5 is a queer train in that never knows where it is headed (flatbush isn't good for a rush hrs. only line)
d)same reason as above (plus no yard for M, although it doesn't really have one now)
e)I don't know why the M went to Marcy. Maybe because the J was the peak dir. exp, and the M made things easier? Really not that important.
Not enough ridership from Ocean Parkway if you ask me for the Q to run from there plus access to and from layup tracks would be a problem. Morning AM most if not all seats are gone on the Q at Brighton anyway plus Brighton has a TOWER and space for the car cleaners now, you would have to build space for the dispatcher and car cleaners and supplies at Ocean Pkwy.
A friend in NYCT told me that the original contract of R-68 was for the rebuilding of the R-16 fleet into full-width cab cars with modern amenities like A/C and new lighting (this was around 1979). When the NYCTA got around to looking at the price for the rebuild they said 'no way' and instead put out a contract for a new fleet of cars -- the current 'hippos'. Is this accurate??? Train Dude and/or Alex L.'s expertise would be appreciated here.
BMTman
I do know that there was a project that was going to make r-10's into full width cabs and change the outside look. I think that's the project you're referring to.
Nope, there was an R-16 on display at a 207th St Shoops open house some time ago. I was in it along with others and did witness a full width cab.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sorry. You're right. R-10's did get the re-build, but so did r-16's (i have pics at my house of both). That re-build looks like another car, not an r-16.
Bill, do you know if this R-16 might still be on the 207th St. Shop property?
BMTman
I saw the prototype in the early 80s. It was an R-16 with an R-42 bonnet. I doubt that it's still at 207th st but if anyone has the original car number, i can find out what has become of it.
6429.
-Stef
"I saw the prototype in the early 80s. It was an R-16 with an R-42 bonnet. I doubt that it's still at 207th st but if anyone has the original car number, i can find out what has become of it."
The prototype with the R-42 front was an R-10.
The R-16 with a full width cab had an R-46 like interior and the front sort of resembled the GOH M&K R-32's. The front route sign was on the right just like an R-42 etc. (signed up (A) )
Bill "Newkirk"
Here's a picture
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee,
Yep, that's the R-10 alright. I wish I had a slide scanner to post the slide of the R-16.
Bill "Newkirk"
How appropriate for it to have an A sign.:-)
Want me to do some scanning for you Bill?
-Dave
That is BIZARRE ... heresy! But those car shop guys always did have a sense of humor. :)
"Bill, do you know if this R-16 might still be on the 207th St. Shop property? '
Death by scrappers torch !
Bill "Newkirk"
I can't say if contracts were ever written for any R-16 re-build. However, from my experience, the contract numbers are 'project specific'. If a project does not come to realization, the number is not re-used.
How does a motorman in NYCTA get into the C division?
Like getting into Carnegie Hall: Practice, practice, practice.
Just kidding.
Actually, I believe like anything else it's based on seniority. Of course it's considered a cushy position among T/O's.
BMTman
OK, I'll bite ... A is IRT, B is BMT/IND ... what the fook is C? Yard duty? SIRT? Don't remember a C when I was there in the early 70's ...
Kev, I guess they created SubDivision C after you left.
I believe it is a combination of MOW and 'miscellenious non-revenue work' which also includes T/O's working the Nostaligia Train Special details for the Transit Museum.
BMTman
Almost forgot to mention that I believe that South Brooklyn Railway (SBK) -- although a separate entity within the NYCT -- gets some of it's crew from within the SubDivision C.
Nowadays SBK itself may infact be considered a part of 'C' (depending on who you ask).
BMTman
I *knew* I'd be able to count on you to cut to the nitty ... thank ya! Now if I had been offered something like that instead of layups and an occasional revenue run, I'd be at the head of the line for that. (fat chance) It's nice not having to haul geese all day/night. Yeah, I can see where that would be a seniority "thang" ... I was worried it might be "garbage scow duty" or worse, being selected to top charge an errant train so it could be moved ... and no, the depicted R9 below was NOT one of my moves. Heh.
Maybe heypaul was at the controller when that one happenned?...;-)
I suppose that's when he acquired his coveted cab and its components.
BMTman
Gotta watch that reverser wrench I s'pose. Good thing you don't have to pass a test for parallel parking those puppies. :)
I found some new information about SubDivision C over the weekend.
First, I was WAY off on when it was created. I said the 1980's. Wrong. It was instituted in 1996! Just a mere 5 years ago.
Second, I was right in my guess about the South Brooklyn Railway getting its crew from SubDivision C. However, it turns out that the SBK is infact part of "C" even though it is also a separate corporation unto itself on paper.
BMTman
Yes indeed, and the South Brooklyn is likewise legally a railroad under FRA reg's since they interchange freight with common carriers.
Just to throw in a little story, when I worked 36 st Yard years ago we couldn't take, I think it was the 51, out on work trains. It was a backup for the South Brooklyn and couldn't leave the yard in case it was needed. (I think the 12 and 13 were the South Brooklyn's regular engines then). One of the guys said the 51 was an "ICC engine" back when the ICC was essentially what the FRA is now, at least to railroad people. It carried a federal inspection paper..the bulk of the engines didn't and couldn't run on SBK. Likewise a mine engine at Colstrip, Montana (an Alco Switcher) couldn't go on to BN tracks for the same reason.
Does the B Division still use the South Brooklyn radio channel? I think they did when I was there; it was a genuine railroad channel. The A Division wasn't...we used to hear calls from the Brookhaven, NY police channel on the elevated portions. But this is 30 years ago. Because the TA wasn't a legal RR they couldn't use a RR frequency, but did on the B div. via SBK.
Division C? There is only a A, B1, and B2.
NO, NO, there IS a subdivision "C"
Peace,
ANDEE
It's not Division C -- SubDivision "C". Technically it is an 'off-shoot' of the MOW Department, but if you look at my other posts on this subject you will find that it involves itself with the more 'esoteric' details within NYCT operations.
BMTman
There is a "sub"Division C, I'v seen G.O.'s for it calling Div. C crews.
Hi all,
I've just finished revamping Subway Simulator Central website. Hopefully this will be main resource site for anyone to create & share subway/LRT routes/trains using any Train Simulator software (Mainly Microsoft Train Simulator).
There's one current project by Ernie Alston, he's currently creating # 7 Flushing line, using freeware BVE train simulator software, so come on over and see it! If you are planning to create specific routes, let me know and I'll add your name with description of the route.
Subway Simulator Central
http://hometown.aol.com/subwaysimcentral
Cheers,
Michael
Ah, if only Mackoy coule write an English version, or if someone could make a patch that would display everything in English. All I see are question marks and numbers.
You know something? Despite the language barrier, IMO, BVE could replace Mechanik!
Calling all Motorman ( Train Operators ) :
what do you prefer a brake handle or a cineston controller for braking?
If former motormen can qualify, I couldn't conceive of anything other than two-fisted operation ...
>>> I couldn't conceive of anything other than two-fisted operation <<<
Now explain your answer. You sound to me like the older truck drivers who loved to double clutch through twelve gears and could not imagine that a truck could ever have an automatic transmission.
Tom
Yeah, that's pretty much it. I worked R1/9's ... I was offered school car on the R42's at the time since I had just been promoted from conductor but I actually *liked* the R1/9's and could pull a longer shift doing those ... I always liked the rolling stock and they were a lot more logical ... left brain, right brain, right hand, left hand.
What made me very antsy about the cineston (sp?) was that if I pulled back a bit too hard on it and the train brickwalled to a stop, I was afraid I would overshoot the all stop notch and start accelerating. I also didn't care much for having to turn the handle. With the separate controllers it was so much more logical. If the braking was a bit hard, the worst that would happen if I got pushed into the window was I'd be easing off on the brake. No chance in hell of accidentally applying power since you'd have to pull the drum handle AT you ... a minor point of course since we all get used to what we actually operate. But I operated R1/9's, played with some redbirds in the concourse yards and it just made more sense to me and I felt more comfortable that I wouldn't slip and do something stupid.
Personal preference, that's all ... but I think you'll find many of my own vintage who would feel the same way for the same reasons. Those who never did "two fisted operation" would consider the concept as foreign as a bathroom sink with two separate faucets to twiddle. :)
In the controller you refer to as cinestron, are you actually referring to the P-Wire setup on the Pre GOH R46 cars? What made them difficult was that you couldn't feel and hear the air applying, as it was electronically controlled by a potentiometer. Also pulling back too far would apply the air brakes into emergency. One trick I learned rather quickly was there was a circular notch drilled into the console on the wayside regulated manual side of the controller. I used to place my fingertip of my other hand in this hole so when I pulled back from power, the tip of the controller would line up with my finger. This hold was drilled on all consoles for whatever reason in the coast position. One reason the r46s may have stopped so hard I found was to go beyond the full service position to "charge". You got an extra 8 pounds of B.C. by doing so. You needed that extra brake sometimes, especially when handling that occasional F train when we got the express run from Continental to 179. I prefer the brake handle and can imagine the problems engineers have when running the EPIC brake controllers. I prefer to hear the application and release; I hate looking at air guages anyway. Don't even start with ME 23, I'm too young for that.
On 1689 at BERA you can center the key and let go of the deadman with out any BIE. Hence you could have one handed operation!!
A severe violation of the rules indeed. I remember a motorman on the Manny B with a train of prewars clearing the grade timers doing that while flipping through the funnies. On the R46, the plastic flashlight fit perfectly under the contoured console handle to keep the train from dumping. The deadman was twist activated, not pressure sensitive like on all existing SMEE. The hostler's deadman button was held in with a winged skate key by most old timers at Jamaica Yard.
Cool! I can hold my beer while I operate! Heh.
I only got to try out the 42's when I was in "training" and I really didn't care for it at all since I'd already known how to handle R9's and felt a whole lot more comfortable with that. And yes, with "two fisted operation" (I've received some email busting my chops for that phrase, thanks, folks! Heh) you also had the benefit of very firm notches on power and the varying degrees of tension in the brake handles so you knew JUST where you were in every part of it. The magnet valves let you know when you were easing off and everything gave you very firm feedback as to what your train was doing.
Back in those days, we didn't have speedos, you had to FEEL what 15 MPH was (though the timers would help you recalibrate the old meat rom OFTEN), your pressure gauges were merely an approximation, not the law and so the only sure thing you could fly by was the seat of your pants back then. Of course if the geese came flying into the storm door, then you knew you had to ease off a bit. :)
If I understand correctly your tenure at NYCT (mid-60s?) there
wasn't any cineston / single-handled equipment around. The
Bluebirds were gone by then and the R44s (with a slide handle,
not cineston) weren't yet conceived.
1971 was when I was there and there were 44's on the property at the time - I just didn't operate any. Some of the 42's were equipped with the "joystick" and I did get to "co-operate" with a buddy and really didn't like it one bit. I did the R1/9's with one run on a 32 southbound ... they put me back on the R1/9's though after complaints about my jerky stops on the 32 ... my reference to "cineston" was based on someone else using the term ... I always referred to it as a joystick since it looked like a toy to me. Real handles had a lot of movement which allowed finesse whereas the "lionel paddle" struck me as just asking for trouble. Amazingly, folks adapted to them just fine. To me, it was just a preference.
Who complained about your jerky stops? Your supervisors rode with you?
Believe it or not, my conductor complained since he smacked his head on the bulkhead on one of the stops. The 32's were peppy compared to the R1/9's (I was used to just wrapping the drum to schwide out of a station) and you'd go to full app to stop those ... the "brightliners" would literally lock up on you when you did that and as much as I would try to ease off when I started to grab, they did have a tendency to lock up on you anyway. Composite shoes on those was a good idea.
I had spent all of my time though on one kind of equipment and when you have a "shakedown cruise" of sorts before they let you out on the railroad, I found the 32's challenging and was quite relieved to be back on the R1/9's in all sincerity.
A trick to stopping those stubborn R32s was to drop out CCO before initiating decelleration. One problem with them was dynamic blending. When the dynamic faded out, the brake shoes slammed on, even with inshot air. Something with the J1 relays was different on them from the GE R10s, maybe the overall weight of the cars before overhaul. Coming into fast stations like 36/4th Av or W4 was easy with only 20 to 30 Lbs without dynamic, if only you could stand the dust clouds afterwards. The R40/R42 and R10s handled dynamic blending a little better.
Ya know? Now that you mention that, after the ballbusting session back at the TM's office, I was told something along those lines. But my dispatcher just handed me R1/9's after that and I was happy as a clam ... as much as I loved trains and all, I realized that I really wasn't cut out for the job given the state of the equipment and the need to be repeatable at every stop. I'm not a terribly good driver either but I do write good software. Finally I've learned what I'm good at and that's the reason I have a lot of respect for people that can run a train day in, day out without losing it. :)
The 32's struck me as a VERY nice ride but they were so radically different from what I got broken in on, I just preferred the older cars and most of the other motorman were just as happy to let me have my wish. Funny thing about Stillwell was that I got along famously with most of the oldtimers but many of the newer hires just could not fathom why I wanted to run the "old wrecks" ... they were usually extremely forgiving of ham-handed people like me ... except for that one train that the brakes faded on me and cost me my job. By then, I had pretty much realized that it really wasn't the gig for me even if it fulfilled a long-standing childhood fantasy. I've had a lot of jobs like that where the anticipation of getting there was way better than actually doing so.
In addition to being rattled on the job for hanging out with the "wrong element" (white boy from the Bronx who preferred to hang out with the "brothers" in a VERY racist work environment) I had pretty much had my fill with the behavior of some of the folks who called Stillwell their "turf" but I didn't last long enough to get a pick outta there to anywhere else. And sadly, after all these years I hear that Stillwell has only gotten worse with time. The folks that I got along with though sure made the crap a lot more fun to take and went out of their way to calm me down when the poo flew and reassured me that the 32's were "just like that and it ain't you."
But I didn't like those 32's after my personal day of torture in one. I'm sure I would have gotten the hang of it if I had stuck with it but other folks told me that once you had gotten used to those, you couldn't do R1/9's as easily any more and I knew the days of my favorite cars were numbered. Never did an R10 though I was told they were precisely the same as what I had been used to, but that was a pick I didn't have a hope in hell of seeing for years. Everybody it seems with any experience on the older cars WANTED that gig.
There are still many times I miss the "ta" ... but then again I remind myself of what life was like then there and I do get over it. My fingers STILL get itchy for them handles tho'. Only difference is I'm not 15 anymore and really ain't into doing hard time for "grand theft, train." :)
Oh, from your earlier accounts I thought you were around
a bit earlier. The R44/46 slide handles were very comfortable
but perhaps did not give enough tactile feedback as to which
"notch" you were in. They also had a fail-safe fault which
would have made them unacceptable to the FRA: in the event
of motorman collapse, it was a little to easy to fall forward
onto the handle and put it into max power, deadman still in.
This may have contributed to a wreck on the relay tracks at 179St
in which the m/m, if not already dead from a heart attack, certainly
didn't survive impact with the block.
One formerly vocal SubTalker has an R44 slide handle, and complete
console in fact, for use with model RR.
"Cineston" was a General Electric trademark although it later became
a generic term for all rotary single-handle controllers.
The original R44/46 slide handles were not cineston-style, but
they have since been retrofitted with them. I dislike them because
of the power/brake confusion, especially when in the coast position.
I'm not 100% sure because it's been a few years, but I think
the PCC L cars (the 1-50s and the 6000s) of CTA have the Brake
notches reversed compared to NYCT equipment.
Yeah, I got my start with the TA as a conductor in September of 1970 and got the motorman promotion in February of 71 ... when I was a kid, I lived in Riverdale/Marble Hill and growing up, a lot of my friends had dads that worked for the TA or the NY Central, back when there was a huge rail yard at Marble Hill where JFK High School now sits. As a result, I got to ride the cab of a lot of trains on Saturdays and often got a little "handle time" under major supervision. I'll also admit to stealing a redbird with three friends back in (I think) 1965 where we swiped a train from 242 and abandoned it in the tunnel near 191st Street when we saw the police cars following us on the street below. Bag of works left on the platform, front door leaf open and green over green. 15 year olds don't consider the consequences. Ssshhhhh! Statute of limitations long gone on that one. :)
So yeah, "I took a train once but they made me put it back" as Groucho once said.
Oh ... just for the jovial value ... trucks have automatic transmissions now? How *wimpy*! Yeah, you're right ... I know how to use a clutch too. Aside from rolling back, they offered more options than automatics ... but I've eventually gotten used to auto trannies in cars, but my first car was a Ford Mustang (1967) and my second was a Volkswagen 400 beetle ... auto trannies ARE easier, I'll grant that.
But being an upstate boy now, I believe in two fisted drinking and two fisted railroad operations ... not at the same time though. :)
And yeah, I've done joystick ... another gratuitous snapshot of myself in the mighty diesel below. Conrail SD-80MAC, #4118 ... not a wimpy ride even if it has an auto tranny. (grin)
Maybe by the same syndrome the latest van that I've purchased is a l979 Dodge with four-on-the -floor manual. I don't even know what I like so much about a stick..fun in a way, the kid in me I guess. When you're in city traffic [gentle in Montana] why like it? But then I'd have cried for an R1-9 any day back when we had them, SMEEs and R44/46
all on the same lines in some cases.
From my rather limited experience driving subway trains years ago when things were more lax (fewer supervisors around etc.) and I knew several drivers, I'd say I prefer the separate controls for power and braking.
I haven't had much to say today so will chime in [with my voice more likely a foghorn]. I as a former motorman having handled evrything from the Q to R46 agewise would rather have separate controls for power and brake anyday
With a Cineston, you can accidentally stick it in Paralell when you want Full Service braking. You can't do that by accident with the two separate controlers for braking and motoring. I'm not much of a fan of the T bar control used on even newer subway cars either; I prefer the rotary motion of either a Cineston or, better still, the separate controls.
You know? I just had a weird thought from another totally unrelated to railroading job I had in years past and in rereading this thread to see how I ended up admitting to "grand theft, train" I just realized why this one thread pushed all my buttons.
I *genuinely* don't want to drag this off-topic, but what I'm about to describe will sorta explain the reasoning for why we all seem to agree that separate handles are the ONLY way to run a train despite all of the "progress" that's come since. When I worked for the TA, I was continuing in a moonlight gig that I started in after graduating from DimWitt Clinton HS in 1968 ... I went into (gack) RADIO ... in 68, my first gig was with WBAI when they were still on 39th St, over the Vera Institute of Justice in the old brownstone. From there, over the years I made my way from there to WHBI 105.9, then WLIR 92.7, then WNEW-FM as vacation relief and finally to PLJ for the end of my days in "commercial radio" ... after PLJ, I went and lit up a pirate FM station in the Bronx known as WPAX-AM and later, WXVU-FM, 107.9, "listener sponsored radio in Da Bronx" ... OK, so there's the radio gig, did more broadcasting over the years (legit) until 1985 but that's not where I'm going with this ...
Anyone who has ever did "DJ'ing" from broadcast to club sound can recall a long-standing (and STILL not yet extinct) argument over "which are better? Rotary knobs or SLIDE POTS?" ... and ya know, the same argument is HERE ... I think that's what lit up my indication here since the "twin-fisted or wimpyass" deal is the same thing here! And I am highly amused by the way the "handles or radio" differences are the same argument ... them rotary things are more "ergonomically" designed than "slide pots" ... even if "cinestons suck" ... the rotary "thang" does seem to give a better degree of control from the human mindset (if not ergonomic like the stupid slide pots) ... this thread has been most amusing ... and even more amusing, the "age thing" hasn't entered into it either. Even the younger guys here seem to feel more comfortable with the older style than the newer. I think we're ON to something here, a veritable breakthrough.
Your hour is up, that'll be $75 schmeckels ...
Exactly what was the reason behind the single controller on R44/46?
All the LIRR electrics have them. I think two handed controllers are better for subway use, but the single controllers are more practical for suburban railway use, since stops are less frequent.
Anybody hear about a fire in one of the Amtrak East River tunnels? I heard on WCBS around 2 this afternoon. I wonder if that messed up the LIRR.
Yesterday Amtrak had a problem in one of their Hudson river tunnels which really messed up NJT. And I heard of more NE Corridor problems.
So what's up with Amtrak? Would Amtrak be more reliable if government ran it?
Actually, Amtrak pretty much *is* a government agency, so that's out the window. And they don't know how to run a RR anyway. I say cut them loose and let them sink or swim.
Whup, so much for train travel. Maybe I can retrofit a 50 gallon gas tank in my 69 mustang so when I am forced to drive to school I won't have to buy gas in CT.
Note: For anyone who does not know, the express tracks on the F between Jay and 4th av. are unusable at the present.
F train used to run express between church and Jay. It was rare, but it was real. However, this service has been discontinued for some time and the tracks condition sucks. However, i think it would be advantageous to re-open them, especially with the V service and the R-143 cars arriving.
Before, i though it would be hard to run the F express and the G local. Asking passengers to use the G train for local service would be; not do-able. But, The G doesn't run enough service. I thought maybe you could run rush hour G trains Bedford-Nostrand from Church to supplement G service. But then people headed for manhattan, the majority of culver riders, would have to transfer at bergen for an F (or other various stations).
But, with the V train running, you could run it to brooklyn as the culver local and have service to manhattan on both the express and local tracks. further, the G would be extended to Church. Riders from Church and further south could skip all those local stops that slow down service on the F line.
Anyone else who rides the F line, please input your ideas. I think that this service would be a good idea, but often other people have other ideas.
If I remember what Happened back in the 70s The F to and From Coney island ran Exp and the ones to Kings Hwy Ran Local. So there was both Local and Exp Service on the F During Rush Hours, and the G was extended to Church Ave
If I remember correctly, the first try was all F's ran express between Bergen and Church, with the CI trains running express between Kings Highway and Church in the peak direction and the Kings Highway trains running local over that stretch. The next iteration was the scenario you described, with the Kings Highway trains running local all the way. After that it was deemed that there still wasn't enough local service between Church and Bergen, so the GG went back to terminating at Smith/9th, all F's ran local between Bergen and 18th Av, with the CI F's running express in peak direction between 18th Av and Kings Highway (big deal). Subsequently, the whole idea was dropped.
There's plenty of service if both the G & V serviced the local stops. There's a lot of people from Church and south that would apperciate the service.
Everyone would benefit from the F express and the V local. People at local stops get fresh trains that just started from Church in the AM; people from south of Church don't have to worry about local riders; pax from express stops at Church, 7th and Bergen would be ecstatic in having a choice of two lines to Manhattan.
Does anyone thing that the Bergen Street Lower Level would be re-opened? How does the LL station look? I lived there for 6 years but never had the pleasure of seeing it during some emergency reroute or anything.
Also, Bergen Street riders wouldn't give a damn, since it would make no difference other than another flight of stairs. Same number of stops to midtown for them.
(Anyone else who rides the F line, please input your ideas. I think that this service would be a good idea, but often other people have other ideas.)
I've said that at rush hours you'd need at least 8 F or V trains per hour running local from Church, in a addition to the G, to make the F express palitable to bypassed stations, including mine. Off peak, you'd need at least six.
The MTA doesn't have, and does not want to spare, more cars for this line, however.
I use 15th st and 7th ave as my two stops, and at the height of the rush, even 8 local tph sounds a little low. Maybe 10tph.
I think express service to & from Church is a good idea, because all of the local stops north of Church are extremely crowded in the AM and there is usually very heavy loading all the way to W4th. ( the K would solve some of that problem, eleminating transfers at Essex )
I don't think the 4 lever temorary interlocking installed at Bergen after the fire will ever be replaced with a full plant, so B3 and B4 will never again see normal service north of 4th Ave. Maybe they can install a PC controlled tower there, so the operator can also play Tetris!
;-) Dave
The switch would obviously be controlled by a master tower someplace else. It's not like there will actually be an operator there.
That's a good Idea to have the F train to run Express. When I went to Coney Island back in 1995. It took 1 Hour and 10 Minutes to get to Coney Island from Delancey St. With that the F running Express in Brokklyn. More People that Vist's NYC will get a chance to go to Coney Island on the F Train. Now only if the F Train to run Express on 6 AVE and make the D train to run Local on 6 AVE.
And one more thing. Back in 1994 I rember seen a Sign like this on the F Train.This is from the R-46.
"F Culver Express"
Dominick Bermudez.
[Now only if the F Train to run Express on 6 AVE and make the D train to run Local on 6 AVE. ]
That's impossible, without ridiculous switching, also express only skips 2 stops, so there's not much time saving either.
Arti
Your talking at least 2 years before we can get enough R143's in service to free up Eastern Division R40's/42's.
Look at the 142's, how many cars have they freeed up?? 3 trains worth at most and how long have they been accepted for delivery?
Take the R-142 and don't mind the interior, fading red stripe or red treatments by headlights. Is the R-110A body and R-142 body identical ? Any differences in door openings etc. ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, the mechanical workings (most obviously the couplers) are different. You knew this though (car body). Aisde from the mechanical changes, the cars frames (bodies) are the same.
The R-110A has wider doors.
Does anyone have a idea on how many Train Operators will be hired this year? I know there is a second class in now with about 145 people and the TA is up to list #371. Just wondering if I will be called soon, my list number is under 1000. Any info would be helpful.
Asked and answered counselor!
This is the first time civil service history there has been an open competitve test for Train Operator. No body knows how many they will call, how many will pass the hiring screening, how many will past classroom training and how many will pass their probation.
Transit can guess/estimate how many T/O's will leave in the coming year. With that estimate and the little amount of people that passed the promotional test they decided to issue a frist ever Open Compettitve test. You have to be looking at needing a few hundred T/O's in the next 5 years for an open competitive test. You don't want 300 probationary T/O's in one year.
The list is good for a year, then the city will ask transit if they want to renew the list. You can renew the list 3 more times (total 4 years).
Many people do not answer the call, do not pass the intial screening which includes medical for this title so they will call a lot for a class of 35. Remember if you are called and get a HOLD for something like medical and miss the class, you can go back on the list in front of everybody so when you say the list is up to 371 it is not actually up to 371.
The ab
Asked and answered counselor!
This is the first time civil service history there has been an open competitve test for Train Operator. No body knows how many they will call, how many will pass the hiring screening, how many will past classroom training and how many will pass their probation.
Transit can guess/estimate how many T/O's will leave in the coming year. With that estimate and the little amount of people that passed the promotional test they decided to issue a frist ever Open Compettitve test. You have to be looking at needing a few hundred T/O's in the next 5 years for an open competitive test. You don't want 300 probationary T/O's in one year.
The list is good for a year, then the city will ask transit if they want to renew the list. You can renew the list 3 more times (total 4 years).
Many people do not answer the call, do not pass the intial screening which includes medical for this title so they will call a lot for a class of 35. Remember if you are called and get a HOLD for something like medical and miss the class, you can go back on the list in front of everybody so when you say the list is up to 371 it is not actually up to 371.
The above is from my personal civil service experience, I know not what is going on for real.
I know that this kinda passed, but i can't just let this go by like this.........
What happened this weekend with John was, well, inexcuseable. I didn't get involved in it at all, and i didn't even read any of the posts until Monday. But now, i have to speak up.
Granted, what John said was mildly racist. And, he really shouldn't have said it. But, there was no need for the attacks made on John this weekend. Thomas, (if you read this) what you did was almost as bad. That attack was uncalled for. I understand that everyone here has their own feelings about certain things, but you got a little too into it. John never said that Mexicans were just a bunch of useless wetbacks, or that he hated Mexicans. So, those shots you rattled off about being 'American' were unnecessary.
Then, People applaud ThomasTheSubwayEngine's blasting of John. Others say: "Free speech man! We gots our free speech!" What the hell is this? A battlefield? No, last time i checked this was subtalk, a place where you can chat about RAILROADING. Not racism in america today. All who wish to talk about that topic from EITHER side can go to the appropriate website. You want an argument, then go somewhere else.
In all this anger and 'stuff' quite a few people called for David Pirmann to shut down the site. Now, i personally did not get involved in the fight, and had the site been shut down, I woulda been pissed off, and then, you guys would've seen flammage.
I hope everyone here has learned something from this. From what i've seen, John left the site because everyone here was busting his chops. So, let's try to remeber something from now on when we post messages:
SUBTALK POST
Thank you for contributing to SubTalk! Please remember these important points while posting here:
1. AVOID FLAMAGE - MESSAGES WILL BE DELETED IN THE CASE OF AD HOMEINEM ATTACKS AND INSULTS.
2. Avoid general tourism questions. There are other web sites for that.
3. This isn't an official site of any transit agency, especially MTA New York City Transit.
Please, for the sake of those who want to post about the SUBWAY let's keep it about rail issues. And, if we do stray a little off topic, let's not kill each other.
If this 16 year old kid can restrain himself and act RESPONSIBLY, then surely all you old folks can do it too.
>>>I know that this kinda passed, but i can't just let this go by like this.........<<<
Thanks for reopening this can of blood-sucking worms...
>>>Granted, what John said was mildly racist. And, he really shouldn't have said it. But, there was no need for the attacks made on John this weekend. Thomas, (if you read this) what you did was almost as bad. That attack was uncalled for. I understand that everyone here has their own feelings about certain things, but you got a little too into it.<<<
You've never said anything in the heat of anger. Perhaps SOME of the things Thomas said were uncalled for, but it's silly to say it's almost just as bad. Everyone makes angry statemnts like Thomas did every day on this board. Not everyone makes racial comments that I've seen.
>>>John never said that Mexicans were just a bunch of useless wetbacks, or that he hated Mexicans.<<<
Not the point. It's the things he said about them. Had he used those same analogies on a black person he would have been crucified here. That is true.
>>>So, those shots you rattled off about being 'American' were unnecessary.<<<
I don't remember anything like that taking place.
>>>What the hell is this? A battlefield? No, last time i checked this was subtalk, a place where you can chat about RAILROADING. Not racism in america today.<<<
You're correct.
>>>In all this anger and 'stuff' quite a few people called for David Pirmann to shut down the site.<<<
I remember like tow or three including John himself, but I think eve he said he surprised David DID NOT shut down the site, not that he should do so.
>>>Now, i personally did not get involved in the fight, and had the site been shut down, I woulda been pissed off, and then, you guys would've seen flammage.<<<
That's your perogative, but some of us do get angry at these sort of things. But it's died down now. You really should have posted all this yesterday.
>>>I hope everyone here has learned something from this. From what i've seen, John left the site because everyone here was busting his chops.<<<
Not everyone. In fact some like you decried the response John got. It was actually quite mild as most of us just gave John a scolding a few words of advice he should take into consideration.
>>>Please, for the sake of those who want to post about the SUBWAY let's keep it about rail issues. And, if we do stray a little off topic, let's not kill each other.<<<
We kill each other when we're on topic. You've never seen the epic battles of the Redbird JIHAD vs. The Technologists.
>>>If this 16 year old kid can restrain himself and act RESPONSIBLY, then surely all you old folks can do it too.<<<
I'm younger than you, by a few months. But I felt all of my actions and postings over the weekend were responsible and did not go overboard. As for the old folks, they probably got so fired up because they've either seen or lived through some type of heated racial situation.
That's all I have to say about that. Let's try to wipe this from the legacy of Subtalk forever.
>>>Thanks for reopening this can of blood-sucking worms<<<
Sure. No problem.
>>>You've never said anything in the heat of anger. Perhaps SOME of the things Thomas said were uncalled for, but it's silly to say it's almost just as bad. Everyone makes angry statemnts like Thomas did every day on this board. Not everyone makes racial comments that I've seen.<<<
WRONG!!! I do say things in the heat of anger. And, it was just as bad. Insults and hatred are no way to respond to what John said.
>>>Not the point. It's the things he said about them. Had he used those same analogies on a black person he would have been crucified here. That is true.<<<
I understand that the things he said were somewhat racist. But, they could've been much worse. I've heard stronger 'racist jokes' that people have laughed at (of the race being insulted)
>>>I remember like tow or three including John himself, but I think eve he said he surprised David DID NOT shut down the site, not that he should do so.<<<
I didn't see all the posts, but the ones i did see included a suspension of subtalk.
>>>That's your perogative, but some of us do get angry at these sort of things. But it's died down now. You really should have posted all this yesterday.<<<
Some of us have lives. The whole point of me posting this message was because of the flak that John took was unnecessary because of those 2 or 3 comments made. I've taken worse comments than that in stride.
>>>We kill each other when we're on topic. You've never seen the epic battles of the Redbird JIHAD vs. The Technologists<<<
That's fine. But it's a subway topic, not on racism, or whether or not John is a bigot.
>>>I'm younger than you, by a few months. But I felt all of my actions and postings over the weekend were responsible and did not go overboard. As for the old folks, they probably got so fired up because they've either seen or lived through some type of heated racial situation.<<<
Well, fine. Those who went overboard know who they are. And, I've lived through PLENTY of heated racial situations, even though i'm only 16. Being an interracial kid does that to you.
Point i was making here was that quite a few people 'dropped bombs on John' because of a few statements he made that were a little racist. SELF-CONTROL was lacking in our adult population here (happy?). And, why you're trying to justify those angry attacks is puzzling.
I have sent very similar messages like this to others on this same topic.
I appreciate the fact that you lead a busy life and were not able to respond sooner than this to this whole stupid "John vs. Thomas" issue. But please be advised I've taken very particular pains and effort to try to stop the hating, flaming, and the "we vs. them" division in this board and your responding to this especially matter and in this way only serves to stir the pot up further, something none of us obviously need! I would appreciate greatly your compliance with this, as anything less is counter-productive and obstinent.
Oh, and BTW- As you must've missed in about 30 other posts, I already privately and publicly forgave John, and petitioned him to return when he felt he had been run off from here. He agreed to, and now posts under the name "QDash7Rider" or something analog to this.
I furthermore informed all my much-vocal supporters that the best way they can support me is to share my solidarity and conviction in helping me SHELVE this beaten dead-horse of an issue for all time. So can I count on you helping us play the "Don't ask, don't tell" game, where the first one to spill the beans loses?
-Peace, Thomas :-)
P.S. There are no varying degrees or racism or at the very least xenophobia or sterotyping- It is clearly a boolean operator, in the same way there can't be any "Somehwat pregnant", "A little bit arrested", or " partially dead". Someone either is or isn't, and any attempts made to somehow minimize or mitigate anyone else's behavior ("his comments may have been a LITTLE racist") simply amounts to an attitude of open acceptance and tolerance for people otherwise not wanting to accept full responsibility for their behavor, and those who wish to protect or excuse them!
It's very easy to throw rocks from the comfort of the other side of the screen, but when you've met a good deal of SubTalkers, like John, it's not. I'm very glad to have met John & many others here. Knowing you personally & enjoying your company while doing some railfaning is one of the great joys of my life. BTW, there's a photo of him as part of the 3 boro Field Trip if you're curious.
John is a person with some views that we all don't share. I've told him to calm down, both in person and on this board, but not in a mean way. He is very pasionate about rail & buses, just needs to mature a little. I look forward to his tagging along on our next Field Trip.
Well, that's grandpas 2 cents worth.
Mr t__:^)
Granted, what John said was mildly racist. And, he really shouldn't have said it. But, there was no need for the attacks made on John this weekend. Thomas, (if you read this) what you did was almost as bad. That attack was uncalled for. I understand that everyone here has their own feelings about certain things, but you got a little too into it. John never said that Mexicans were just a bunch of useless wetbacks, or that he hated Mexicans. So, those shots you rattled off about being 'American' were unnecessary.
Then, People applaud ThomasTheSubwayEngine's blasting of John. Others say: "Free speech man! We gots our free speech!" What the hell is this? A battlefield? No, last time i checked this was subtalk, a place where you can chat about RAILROADING. Not racism in america today. All who wish to talk about that topic from EITHER side can go to the
appropriate website. You want an argument, then go somewhere else.
Looking back on what was posted, I'd say that ThomasTheSubway Engine came off looking much worse than John. What John said was basically silly. What TTSE said was grossly immature. He would have been far better off if he had thought before posting.
This post is itself fundamentally unecessary, as both parties in question have long since agreed to bury the hatchet. All the others have proposed to squash the issue indefinitely, and until this post came up, the issue was for the most part forgotten. Please, enough self-righteous advice and judgement as to whether or not "I went too far", etc., cos its really and old old tune by now, and plus its not y'alls place to judge me. If anything, its really a private debate which has handled in the same media form that the original offending post was made public in. Although he had decreed to leave, I have since persuaded John to stay, and he has, posting under a different name.
Have you really not seen the other umpteen posts where I essentially call for unity, forgiveness, and an end to all the flaming?
-Peace Thomas :)
This post is itself fundamentally unecessary, as both parties in question have long since agreed to bury the hatchet. All the others have proposed to squash the issue indefinitely, and until this post came up, the issue was for the most part forgotten. Please, enough self-righteous advice and judgement as to whether or not "I went too far", etc., cos its really and old old tune by now, and plus its not y'alls place to judge me. If anything, its really a private debate which has handled in the same media form that the original offending post was made public in. Although he had decreed to leave, I have since persuaded John to stay, and he has, posting under a different name.
I wasn't meaning to flame you or anything. What I had to point out was that your response to John's comments regarding the 7 train was uncalled-for under the circumstances. My suspicion is that you saw his posting, reacted angrily, and zipped off a response without really thinking through the whole matter. Posting things in haste is the sort of failing that happens to everyone at some point. I know you've probably learned, and I won't belabor the issue any further.
It's also important for everyone to avoid hypersensitivity. People in today's p.c. society are way too willing to take offense when none was intended. If you'll think again about John's controversial comment - he hated the smell of heating oil, B.O. and tacos - I think you'll realize that it was ludicrous rather than offensive. The smell of heating oil? On a 7 train?? And his comment about the large number of Mexican and other Hispanic riders on the 7 was not racist, at least to me; it was just a simple observation of the line's quite distinct demographics. And don't forget that many people have been calling the 7 the "Orient Express" for years and years. John just happened to note an ongoing demographic change.
This post is itself fundamentally unecessary, as both parties in question have long since agreed to bury the hatchet. All the others have proposed to squash the issue indefinitely, and until this post came up, the issue was for the most part forgotten. Please, enough self-righteous advice and judgement as to whether or not "I went too far", etc., cos its really and old old tune by now, and plus its not y'alls place to judge me. If anything, its really a private debate which has handled in the same media form that the original offending post was made public in. Although he had decreed to leave, I have since persuaded John to stay, and he has, posting under a different name.
Have you really not seen the other umpteen posts where I essentially call for unity, forgiveness, and an end to all the flaming?
-Peace Thomas :)
Did Mr. Moses, who despised mass transit, have any hand in the abandonment of plans for the IND second system?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Did Mr. Moses, who despised mass transit, have any hand in the abandonment of plans for the IND second system?
Not that I've heard. The Great Depression, World War II and the postwar migration to the suburbs* were the main culprits.
* = of course, Moses helped bring about that migration, but by then the Second System was dead or nearly so.
Then how do you explain those places that didn't have a Robert Moses?
Robert Moses was only employed because the establishment wanted him to be.
And guess who elected the establishment?
As I recall, even the establishment of F. LaGuardia didn't remember who appointed him Lord of All. Even F.D.R. came to blows with him, F.D.R. was the one who saved us from a Battery - Brooklyn Bridge, otherwise we'd have that bridge in place of the Battery Tunnel today.
I don't believe Moses had anything personally to do with the IND #2 going way of the 5 cent fare, but I do believe numerous other extensions were ruled out at his whim, most notably the Verrazano Bridge (LL Subway into Richmond).
He was quoted at the 1959 constuction commencement (Brooklyn Spectator Newspaper) that he will be damned if the subway crosses his masterpiece. What a arrogant, vain, obnoxious son of bitch bastard he was. Thank God his descendants aren't in the public works field.
As I recall, even the establishment of F. LaGuardia didn't remember who appointed him Lord of All.
He could always have taken away his power, as Lindsay and Rockefeller eventually did, but they didn't.
Even F.D.R. came to blows with him, F.D.R. was the one who saved us from a Battery - Brooklyn Bridge, otherwise we'd have that bridge in place of the Battery Tunnel today.
Eleanor also had a part in that. She wrote an article about how the bridge approach would block the beautiful views of the Statue of Liberty.
I don't believe Moses had anything personally to do with the IND #2 going way of the 5 cent fare, but I do believe numerous other extensions were ruled out at his whim, most notably the Verrazano Bridge (LL Subway into Richmond).
We've already discussed, in another thread, that the subway, Moses or not, would never have gone across the bridge.
He was quoted at the 1959 constuction commencement (Brooklyn Spectator Newspaper) that he will be damned if the subway crosses his masterpiece. What a arrogant, vain, obnoxious son of bitch bastard he was. Thank God his descendants aren't in the public works field.
He may have been an arrogant, vain, obnoxious SOB, but how much has been built since then?
Arrogance, vanity and obnoxiousness are prerequisites for building massive public works, whether they be road or rail. And you certainly wouldn't be complaining if Moses had been biased the other way, but he wouldn't have gotten far by building only rail. Highways were what was wanted.
Moses' great gift was in his ability to see that the rules had changed in the 1930s and that the federal government was now the cash cow for projects.
Moses should be the patron saint of all grant writers, since it was his ability to forumlate those proposals and sumbit them ASAP to Washington that helped New York gobble up so much of the Roosevelt Admintration's funds designed for WPA projects, et al., and which helped the city and suburban areas fund major improvements in their infrastructure.
The fact that Moses' great love was highways and bridges meant his grants were going to be for highways and bridges. If LaGuardia could have come up with a grant writer as nimble as Moses to get federal funds for more subway projects, than some of the second system might have become a reality. But the city was satisfied to work with what Moses brought them, and LaGuardia's focus before WWII was more on finishing off the IND First System, ripping down all the Manhattan els and buying out the bondholders of the IRT and BMT, so the combination meant the Second System plans stayed on the drawing board.
Moses' great gift was in his ability to see that the rules had changed in the 1930s and that the federal government was now the cash cow for projects.
Moses was anathema to FDR. Moses attachement to any project was enough to kill it. The Brooklyn-Battery Bridge was the most spectacular example.
Moses was the darling of the banking establishment after the Henry Hudson Bridge proved that their bonds would not be in jeopardy. This was Moses' preferred funding source. Likewise, the funding for the parkway system was through the issuance of City bonds outside the City debt limit.
Moses should be the patron saint of all grant writers, since it was his ability to forumlate those proposals and sumbit them ASAP to Washington that helped New York gobble up so much of the Roosevelt Admintration's funds designed for WPA projects, et al., and which helped the city and suburban areas fund major improvements in their infrastructure.
Moses had his people write grant proposals prior to grants being available. NYC's proposals would be waiting on the appropriate secretary's desk, as soon as a bill was signed. Getting it through the Washington bureaucracy and turned into a grant was more a tribute to LaGuardia's relationship to FDR, than to the grant writer.
If LaGuardia could have come up with a grant writer as nimble as Moses to get federal funds for more subway projects, than some of the second system might have become a reality.
One instance where Moses definitely was anti-mass transit came in 1940. The Bay Ridge El was torn down to make way for his Gowanus Parkway despite community opposition.
While you're right about the LaGuardia-Roosevelt connection (sounds like a new highway), Moses honed his craft before then while serving as Al Smith's Secretary of State. Since Smith's reforms in New York of the 1920s were the basis of Roosevelt's national reforms of the 1930s, Moses knew the wiring diagram of the system better than anyone else, which is what made him so valuable to LaGuardia as a grant writer, despite the Moses-Roosevelt antipathy (and Moses' failed run for governor in 1934 against Lehman).
My own personal feeling is Moses wasa net plus for New York City and State up until he realized he would not hold high elective office with his loss to Lehman, and began collecting the minuses after that, as he began to cement his unelected power bases in the city and state governments into place.
You neglected his interference during Mayor Gaynor's administration, which was what probably caused FDR to take notice of him.
One instance where Moses definitely was anti-mass transit came in 1940. The Bay Ridge El was torn down to make way for his Gowanus Parkway despite community opposition.
The 5th Avenue El had been useless and redundant since 1915 when the Fourth Avenue Subway had opened.
Perhaps it was an ongoing process. Most of the old Brooklyn neighborhoods were built on what had been farmland, at least the places where they built private homes and duplexes. Which in effect were a suburb for their time. Likewise the old Queens neighborhoods..or maybe there weren't that many farms either. I'd been told Eldert was a farmer.[Cypress Hills-Woodhaven]
Much the same for the Bronx except the Bronx mostly became an extension of Manhattan density-wise.
I don't agree with the suburbia process but that's life and people moving upward wanted their own home and piece of land. For myself I found it in Cypress Hills when I was still a New Yorker, but I'm an exception. I liked being near all the services. and living without a car at times when I so chose.
After reading post upon post about Moses, I still don't know too much about him. All I know was that he was aganist transit and he built all the highways in NYC. Please explain to me who was this man, when did he work, etc. Was he an elected offical, or an engineer? If an engineer, how did he have so much power that he seemed to be able to strike down anything mass transit? Does everyone in NY learn about Moses in school?
Robert Moses like the beach on eastern Long Island (Robert Moses Causeway). He designed and built the parkway system in NYC and neiboring areas. He loved the auto and hated mass transit.
The Belt Parkway was his idea and rumor has it that he had a major role in getting rails out of the design plan for the Verrazano Bridge.
The man accomplished a lot of good but conversely left the rails hanging high and dry with long last consequences. Too bad the rail interests didn't have as much pull then everybody would have service nowadays. Or I mean the services that have been necessary.
Lou, the rail plan for the Verrazano was a pipe-dream anyway since it was realized that for trains to make the steep grade up and down the bridge would have meant that the ROW approaches would have taken up much land area on both the Brooklyn and Staten Island sides. It was enough that Moses & Co. pissed off many residents of Bay Ridge/Dyker Heights with the Verrazano auto approaches.
BMTman
Lou, the rail plan for the Verrazano was a pipe-dream anyway since it was realized that for trains to make the steep grade up and down the bridge would have meant that the ROW approaches would have taken up much land area on both the Brooklyn and Staten Island sides.
I've heard that the approaches on the Brooklyn side would have had to have been over a mile long.
That's correct. Since the bridge couldn't have been made at a "lower" height (because of large naval and international freighters), any rail lines proposed would have had ENORMOUS approach tressles/embankments.
BMTman
The bridge is 220 feet high at the center.
The Manhattan, Brooklyn, Williamsburg and Queensborough Bridges are only 135 feet high at the center of the span.
Not to mention that the longest of these (the Manhattan) has a span of about 1500 or so feet. The Verazanno is 4,260 feet long. The towers, at approximately 69 stories in height, are the tallest structures in Brooklyn and Staten Island.
Well....what if a freighter is coming from (say) the UK, winds up on the eastern side of Staten Island, and wants to get to the Hudson? Obviously huge freighters can't go on the East River, but some of them may want to go to NJ, midtown, or uptown without having to go around Staten Island.
Well. That is why the bridge is 220 feet high.
Also, the Outerbridge Crossing and Goethals Bridge are also 135 feet high. The ships go under the Verazanno and Bayonne.
The Verrazano Bridge towers are also 1 5/8 inches further apart at their tops than their bases; they are perpendicular to the earth's surface.
P.S. times two:
One = He didn't have a drivers license ... yes true
Two = He also hated trucks, e.g. Southern & Northern State Parkways on LI were designed & built with overpass too low for trucks to get under.
As BigEd said he did a lot of good things (Jones Beach, many bridges, etc.), BUT he did with brute force AND with a anti-mass transit attitude. By the time he was building the Clearview Expressway New Yorkers had had enough of him. That's why the expressway ends at Hillside Ave instead of going further south as was intended.
Mr t__:^)
He also hated the poor. The parkway overpasses were too low so that busses carrying the poor wouldn't be able to go to his state parks (like Jones Beach). And no, it wasn't racism.
He hated the carnival-like atmosphere of Coney Island. The fact that there wasn't a lot of such amusement in the World's Fair was the reason the 1964 fair (he ran both) lost plenty of money and had much lower than expected attendance. That and it wasn't internationally recongnized because the US already had a fair that decade, so few important countries had a pavilion.
Yeah, the 1964-65 World's Fair was basically Moses' 'Last Hurrah' and was more or less an event where he could revel in the limelight.
BMTman
[The fact that there wasn't a lot of such amusement in the World's Fair was the reason the 1964 fair (he ran both) lost plenty of money and had much lower than expected attendance.]
I don't know that I agree with that. I attended that fair with my folks & there seemed to be a lot of other folks there too.
... lack of amusement ... yes I'll agree with that
... more business then foreign gov. pavilions ... well GM was much better then NY State's.
Mr t__:^)
... more business then foreign gov. pavilions ...
Ford's Futurama exhibit impressed me the most. Interestingly enough, I wasn't as impressed with the Chrysler exhibit, featuring the Turbine car that they had been testing... we were one of the test families for that car, my father loved it, my mother hated it (mostly because it only had two doors, bucket seats, and was copper color)... Dad said he would never have owned one, though, because it got terrible gas mileage. We put a lot of miles on it during the five or six months we had it - out to Chicago and back, down to Williamsburg twice, plus my father's commuting (Mother refused to drive it, preferring her light blue '63 Dodge 330 sedan with the pushbutton automatic). Most if not all of them (fifty were built) were scrapped as the bodies were imported from Italy and significant customs duties would have had to be paid if the cars had remained intact after Chrysler's test program was completed. Does anyone know if any survived? I think as many as five might have been saved but I don't know for sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ford's Futurama exhibit impressed me the most. Interestingly enough, I wasn't as impressed with the Chrysler exhibit, featuring the Turbine car that they had been testing... we were one of the test families for that car, my father loved it, my mother hated it (mostly because it only had two doors, bucket seats, and was copper color)... Dad said he would never have owned one, though, because it got terrible gas mileage. We put a lot of miles on it during the five or six months we had it - out to Chicago and back, down to Williamsburg twice, plus my father's commuting (Mother refused to drive it, preferring her light blue '63 Dodge 330 sedan with the pushbutton automatic). Most if not all of them (fifty were built) were scrapped as the bodies were imported from Italy and significant customs duties would have had to be paid if the cars had remained intact after Chrysler's test program was completed. Does anyone know if any survived? I think as many as five might have been saved but I don't know for sure.
This site has much information on Chrysler products past and present. You might be able to find the information there.
Thanks, I checked that one but all it had were two pictures... I did a search and found the info elsewhere: 46 were scrapped, nine survived (there were 50 "production" and five prototypes) - of the survivors four or five are running.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They expected 56 million total attendance for the two 6 month seasons, but got only 28 million (still an impressive number). The main reason the Fair had so few foreign pavillions was that the Fair was never recognized by an international organization based in Paris that gives "official" recognition to World's Fairs. Another U.S. Fair in Seattle (which did get recognition) had occurred only 2 years previously.
I don't know that I agree with that. I attended that fair with my folks & there seemed to be a lot of other folks there too.
That doesn't mean that the total attendance by the end of the fair was equal to or above expectations.
Caro's book said the Fair earned its investors back 33 cents on the dollar, roughly the same amount as the 1939-40 World's Fair that Moses denegrated and desired to surpass with his own effort.
They did have a few rides at the back (south end) of the Fair, though my four favorite things about the Fair were still the Ford and GM exhibits, those cool new touch tone phones AT&T set up everywhere, and, of course, the R-33/36 WF Bluebirds.
Robert Moses did have an impact on the subway. In 1961 there was a bond issue to pay for new lines such as Sercond Avenue, Extension of IRT Flatbush Line, etc. Moses convinced the TA to use the money to "maintain and improve" the current system rather than build new lines.
A look at the TBTA (triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority)bridges will reveal none have a sidewalk and none have rail service. The Bronx- Whitestone did have a sidewalk but it was removed in favor of more car lanes.
Robert Moses was also the organizer of the 1964-65 World's fair
(A look at the TBTA (triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority)bridges will reveal none have a sidewalk and none have rail service. The Bronx- Whitestone did have a sidewalk but it was removed in favor of more car lanes.)
I believe the Triboro has a sidewalk.
Given the experience with the Manny B, perhaps Moses was right. The BMT would have put trains on the Queensboro if the City hadn't made them build the 60th Street tunnel. Wish the City had done the same with the Manny B.
A look at the TBTA (triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority)bridges will reveal none have a sidewalk and none have rail service. The Bronx- Whitestone did have a sidewalk but it was removed in favor of more car lanes.
Henry Hudson, Triborough, Marine Parkway and Cross-Bay Vets Mem have walkways.
Only the Throgs Neck and Verazanno, the two latest bridges to be built (1961 and 1964 respectively) are the only ones to be built without sidewalks. The latter at least, has provisions for sidewalks on both sides.
Finally, the Bronx-Whitestone Bridge has always had six lanes. The sidewalks were removed to build trusses. If you think that a car lane can fit in place of a sidewalk on a bridge, you've got another thing coming.
Wasn't that bond issue passed in 1951?
Sounds more like it. The money disappeared like the money from the 1967 bond issue did. The R 17's, early installations of fluorescent lights in stations, etc may have been financed byt the 1951 bonds.
Full details about Robert Moses can be found at
http://www.lihistory.com/7/hs722a.htm
-- Kirk
Charlton Heston.
-Hank :)
Hehe, I walked into that one without even realizing it.
If no one mentioned it otherwise, there is a 1,000 page book about his career which won the Pulitzer Prize, "The Power Broker."
Essentially Robert Moses was a City Planner and Civil Servant. A brilliant man, he got then Governor Al Smith and later a series of NYC Mayors to put him in charge of building all kinds of things -- bridges, tunnels, power dams, housing projects, state parks, city parks, parkways, highways, etc. He developed a staff of engineers and financiers under him that worked with him, as he held several jobs at once. Essentially, he was in charge of almost everything big that got built in New York State from 1930 to 1965. He was so popular in his day that even Mayors and Governors who didn't like him didn't dare to fire him.
There are two criticisms of him. First, he held power in the urban renewal era, and thought nothing of tearing down hundreds of apartment buildings with tens of thousands of people to get things built. He allegedly bullied ordinary people to get them out of the way, but cut deals with the rich and powerful when he had to -- but only when he had to. Second, since he was not in charge of transit, he was against it, and drained off all the money for his projects. He believed rail was obsolete.
After he was finally pushed out -- in his 80s -- politicians put through reams of procedural impediments so no one could ever ram through public works again. These impediments are as extreme as Moses ever was, but in the other direction. Almost nothing has been built since.
[After he was finally pushed out -- in his 80s -- politicians put through reams of procedural impediments so no one could ever ram through public works again. These impediments are as extreme as Moses ever was, but in the other direction. Almost nothing has been built since.]
I agree that the new restraints on building of public works are stiffling and should be changed. However, no man -- ever again -- should be entrusted with so much power and be in charge of so many diversified projects. Moses literally became a 'god' in his own lifetime.
BMTman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm surprised he didn't think he could part the waters of Long Island Sound, let along the Red Sea.:-)
IIRC Moses was also head honch of the 1964-65 World's Fair.
There's a nice article about Moses on www.britannica.com, after running a search. At the end of the article is a reference to two books about him, the earlier one being a best seller, as I recall.
That must be "The Power Broker" by Robert A. Caro.
I just reserved a copy at the New York Public Library yesterday.
Moses' influence was more subtle. He could secure outside funding sources for his pet projects. However, these funding sources were never quite enough for the entire job. Some additional funding was always necessary from NYC. His argument was that NYC could finance a large project for 10, 20 or 30 cents on the dollar.
This was a very persuasive argument. He knew the city budget and how much money was available.
Funds that might have gone into subway construction or a Health Clinic in Harlem were diverted into highways, parks and urban renewal.
Not really. The "Second System" died of its own weight.
Can you say "pie in the sky?"
(Did Moses kill off the Second System) Not really. The "Second System" died of its own weight.
Can you say "pie in the sky?"
But there was some preliminary construction done. That shows to me a serious intent to build the Second System - I know, it's not definitive, note the exploratory work on the Second Avenue line. Even so, it's entirely likely that some or all of the Second System would've been built had it not been for the Great Depression and World War II.
Very little preliminary construction, to be exact. A bellmouth here and there; station shells at S. 4th St. and Utica Ave. at Fulton St.; the never-used Roosevelt Ave. terminal; the middle track at Bedford-Nostrand on the G.
The 2nd Ave. line was started in 1972 and a few short sections were completed. We all know what happened there.
Well, the construction that was done was only done where it crossed a station of phase one. No construction beyond that was done. Even the South Fourth/Broadway and Utica/Fulton stations have a upper level with a perpendicular station, not a full station, but just as long as the station below is wide!
I have resisted posting MDBF numbers ever since I posted the December numbers and some here 'demanded' that I also post which shops had the lowest MDBF. I would not post this except that the accomplishment is so tremendous. Previously, the all-time one month MDBF record was held by Jerome Maintenance Shop (roughly 800,000 miles). That record fell in February. The numbers will not be final for a few days but new all-time one month record has been set by Livonia Maintenance Shop..................
1,043,000 Miles
GOOD LORD THAT'S A LOT OF MIELAGE!
Now, what exactly does that mean.
MDBF = Mean Distance Between Failures
Techincally it means that for that fleet of cars, the cars on the #3 line, the average milage between breakdowns for any car was 1,043,000 miles. In reality, what it means is that for the month of February, the cars of the #3 fleet traveled 1,043,000 miles with only one in-service mechanical failure.
"Techincally it means that for that fleet of cars, the cars on the #3 line, the average milage between breakdowns for any car was 1,043,000 miles. "
Those numbers would make other transit operators salivate. But other transit operations don't have the route milage we have here in NYC.
Bill "Newkirk"
Those numbers would make other transit operators salivate. But other transit operations don't have the route milage we have here in NYC.
The same train would still go the same distance between failures. So in New York the train goes farther and therefore breaks down more frequently time-wise, and that there are less trains to do the breaking down.
The total mileage accrued by the fleet is divided by the number of breakdowns to get the figure. In a city with less distance available to travel, you would just have fewer cars. Less mileage accumulated/less breakdowns = same number.
Now that assumes that the maintenance practices are the same. I'm not saying that the MTAs number isn't a big deal, I'm just saying that your logic, in saying that only the MTA can achieve such a milestone, is faulty.
Burrocrats have this need to quantify things, apple to orange. The MBDF is also "fudged" by the necessity of exhausting all other routes of blame before it is charged to "the equipment" and therefore, if they can blame a conductor or TO for being "tardy" then it isn't the equipment's fault if the conductor had to rock the doors for five minutes to get indication. Such "statistics" are amusing to someone like me who had road dogs and yet *I* was to blame because I couldn't get indictation on the first try and therefore the late train was charged to "person in need of additional training" ... just felt like whining after all these years.
But I can understand why the person who posted this didn't want to disclose which shop had the WORST MDBF because it's truly a matter of which euqipment they have and how new/old it is ... the MBDF winner here probably had a decent amount of newer rolling stock and therefore looks better not because they can kick a$$ in maintaining the cars compared to other shops, just the luck of the rolling stock draw I'll bet. Having worked for the state of NY for a while, I know what these (ahem) "statistics" are really worth in determining who's pulling their weight and who ain't ... sorta like that annual "performance review" ...
There is always fudging in self reported numbers. Check out those "profits" that are now being revised downward.
But you can only fudge to an extent, and for so long. Those who've ridden the subway long enough have noticed the change.
And to the extent those in the shops take pride in the numbers, and try to push 'em up, there is every reason to report them accurately.
I think you have a few things backwards.
1st, lets take the example of the conductor who reports that he has no indication. If he can't clear it up, the train goes out of service. When the train is checked the condition is NOT found as reported - indication is working as intended. Since the C/R reported a mechanical defect - verified or not, the charge goes against the equipment.
2nd, you can only fudge numbers but so far. MDBF numbers and charge protests are audited. The fact is that MDBF numbers are used to compare performance of the fleet and one shop to another. Regardless of alleged fudging, the ratios between shops are still accurate indicators.
Finally - as was said elsewhere in this thread, if you ride the system you can see that the MDBF IS much higher than it was 5 years ago. For those who like stats, here's one. In 1995, the fleet MDBF was roughly 58,000 miles. In 2000 the fleet MDBF was over 110,000 miles.
Then things have changed since the 70's ... back in those days, it was always the crew's fault ... then again, you were pretty much expected to do your own car repairs if you wanted to roll (RCI's would actually get the geese out of their seats and take the door mechanisms apart on the floor, things were that bad) ... but back in those days, you'd still get chewed out for being late at the terminal and reports of defects would somehow vanish and the same car you turned in yesterday would be waiting there for you, almost taunting you, the next morning.
But I know things have improved IMMENSELY since those days ...
What was it like to have that controller fall apart on you? Luckily, it wasn't on a Hi-V.
At the time, I was a conductor and in a word, SCARY. I hadn't gotten much in the way of training about what was in them things until motor school - I thought there was 600 volts on it (it was an R4 but the car number escapes me at the moment - I've got it written down somewhere) and of course, no radios at the time. We had gone over the switches near Prospect Park and it literally fell off the wall and the cover came off. I was able to reach the horn and was tooting my b@lls off. When the train didn't open up at the next stop, my motorman got a bit of a clue and came back to see if I'd fallen off the train. Back in those days, crews did a lot of ball-busting and this was no exception.
They called in for an RCI who lifted it out from between my legs. I didn't know that it had been cut out, so the whole time I was afraid it was hot and my motorman kept going "BZZZZP!" at me. :)
You mean it was a trigger box, then? I thought you were referring to the motorman's controller such as the one in Heypaul's cab.
I was referring to the box that contained the drum and reverser switch. In the cab. Wasn't unusual for conductors to grab a seat in the cab on a long express run (after all, we had church keys) and when I dropped the ladder seat and sat down, the damned thing fell off the wall and popped open. Aparently I made a bad choice of cab and since it was in the middle of the consist, they put a car they had been working on the night before into the consist to have something that rolled. It wasn't taped up and it wasn't marked with a red card.
I didn't get yelled at over it, so clearly somebody knew someone else did something stupid. :)
Gotcha, thanks. Is that box visible in either of the two cab photos posted earlier? I was never sure where the drum switches were on the R-1/9s.
Let me guess - did it happen on a CPW express dash?
Finally - as was said elsewhere in this thread, if you ride the system you can see that the MDBF IS much higher than it was 5 years ago. For those who like stats, here's one. In 1995, the fleet MDBF was roughly 58,000 miles. In 2000 the fleet MDBF was over 110,000 miles.
How much of this "improvement" is due to a statistical aberration in the TA's MDBF accounting practices. Back in 1995 each car consisted of an average of 1.5 individual units, thanks to the married pairs of the R26, R28, R29, R29, R33, R36, R32, R38, R40 and R42. The proper accounting method would have been to married pairs as individual units for mileage accumulation; they already accounted as an individual unit for failure counts. This means that a proper accounting would have brought the 58,000 figure closer to 38,700 miles.
The use of link bars and permanent connections raised the number of cars per unit to 3.2 in 2000, with the conversion of the R62's and R68's. This means that the 2000 MDBF figure should be derated to 34,400, for a 10% net loss over the 1995 figures.
The question is where the failure is observed. The TA's accounting does show that a rider is about half as likely to have the train he is on break down in service than 5 years ago. However, unless the TA's mean time to repair figures have been halved, the average rider is 10% less likely to find any train.
2nd, you can only fudge numbers but so far. MDBF numbers and charge protests are audited.
The fudging is more than adequate to be misleading.
The fact is that MDBF numbers are used to compare performance of the fleet and one shop to another. Regardless of alleged fudging, the ratios between shops are still accurate indicators.
There are many measures that should be used to compare performance. Basing such comparisons on a single measure invites practices that maximize this measure at the expense of overall operation. I would prefer to use availability, if there had to be a single such measure to compare shop or fleet performance.
There have been various posts that because of track work there was limited service between Utica and New Lots during non-rush hours. To what extent, if any, did this change the normal car assignments for the Livonia Yard. Specifically, as such a measure, was there any significant change in the total mileage from previous months?
It may never happen but...
Lets say a fleet traveled 1,000,000 miles and had no breakdowns
That would be 1,000,000 / 0 (Oops - you can't divide by zero)
How would that be reported ?
Infinite MTBF.
The TA being big on Microsoft stuff and all, that math operation would result in a blue screen with error "0005c" ... it'd crash the box. Sometimes the best math operations are done with a number 2 pencil. :)
One could say "1 miilion miles without breakdown,"
or count back to the last breakdown and report one breakdown in 1 million + x miles"
The MDBF is a statistical quantity. It is essentially the probablilty of a failure. The calculated value described is an estimate of this statistical quantity. If there were no failures than the estimated probability of failure would be 0%.
How good is the estimate? There are the concepts of a confidence interval and confidence level for such an estimate. Suppose that the confidence level were 85%, the confidence interval were 30% and there were no failures. Then 85% of the time the actual probability of failure will lie between 0 and 30%. The more observations, the narrower the range for a given confidence level. The closer this estimate gets to an extreme (0% or 100%) the greater the range for the same number of observations.
Not enough information was given to calculate these quantities from the data supplied by Mr. T. Dude. However, it is safe to say that the confidence level for any estimated statistic based on only one event would be very low.
Man, that's a lot of miles!
Not really, the D line runs 1.6 million (revenue) miles per month. Actually, the D line at 6,300 miles per month per car ihas the highest utilization of any line. If you really want numbers though, the Jamaica Shop fleet of 1,044 cars travels nearly 6 million miles per month........
Hippos have been beat out by R-62s ... oh be still my hart.
Meanwhile the MSBF/MDBF were down for the month at this depot.
Mr t__:^)
YEAH BABY!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!
Train#1977Mike
7AveExpress
Nancy, my lovely of nearly 25 years has been watching me sitting here and pi$$ing away hours hanging out here and though I've described ad naseum to her the innards of an R9 cab and how it's laid out and the procedure of cut-in and waking up the cars was wondering if there are any pictures or drawings of the back panel (breaker panel) layout so I can show her what it took to wake one up. I'm sure there's some of the Branford folk here who might have a photo or drawing so I can show her what it was I actually did at 4:30am in a coma ... maybe?
It's probably age doing it's thing but I could swear that the controller was on the left looking out the window and the brake handle on the right side but when I saw Heypaul's cab photos on his site, the first thing I noticed was that the controls were reversed from how I remember them being, yet the electric braking "butt plug" was in the proper position on the left side near the door and the reverser was on the right side. Heypaul's pictures though strike me as being right but I swear it can't be as my simulated clutch reflex is on the wrong hand.
I'm going mad, I swear because I KNOW the butt plug went into the round box on the left side looking out front and yet somehow I keep thinking that I used my left hand to take off and my right hand to brake ... but that isn't so important to my now fuzzy memory as what the layout of the switches (breakers) behind me were. Shows ya what thirty years out of the collapsible seat can do to ya ... I know what I remember was the layout of either the R9's or the redbirds and I'm thinking that what I remember was the redbirds ... I'm so confused now. :)
Anyplace got some photos or drawings though for my own sanity? All I can say at the tender young age of 50 is it's a damned good thing it's the memory that goes first ... I'm just glad I'm not losing a vital organ. Heh. Maybe if I ever get a couple of days of quiet space, I'll get to Branford and see for myself but reality is I haven't had time for a day off in a couple of years now and I don't see R&R time happening anytime soon ... this one's making me crazy ...
Don't worry you're not crazy, the controllers on the cab in heypauls apartment are reversed.
Peace,
ANDEE
WHEW! I was going nuts there looking over those pix ... I thought it was time to head for Creedmoor and turn myself in (and pocket $50 if the old "turn in the loony" rule still applies) ...
Now the question is, who's gonna tell Heypaul? Not I! :)
Thanks for the reassurances ...
i reversed the brake stand and controller... as a kid i was always fascinated by the controller, and being right handed i figured that it should be on the right, as i think they were on the triplexes... not having ever operated a train, i didn't realize that stopping a train involved more sensitivity than running the controller through its 3 steps... sorry for the confusion...
BMT equipment had the controller on the right and the brake valve on the left, so it's understandable for Paul to set up his cab that way.
I wonder if Big Ed had any problems going from the old BMT equipment to the R-1/9s and SMEEs and vice versa when he plied the rails as a motorman.
Heh. What got me was the electric brake plug was where I remembered it being yet the gear looked backwards ... so I supposed that since you had rescued the toys, you had put them back the way you found them (by the way, NICE JOB on that build of yours - the working windshield wiper was a dead giveaway though since many cars didn't have any at all) ... but it was making me crazy. Thanks for letting me know. Did you grab the power panel also?
Howdy doo! I hear that all you guys got lucky with "only" 5 inches of snow. And that you're expecting another 4 inches on top of that. Man, glad I'm not there to deal with any of that, we had in the UK some of our own problems with the weather. Needless to say that this has been one heckuva vacation. With 11 days down and 11 more to go, here's what has happened so far:
1)"Worst weather to hit Scotland in 27 years"
Edinburgh received 6 inches of snow within 36 hours on the 3rd day of our trip. Mind you that Edinburgh rarely gets to see the white stuff as most of the locals had told us. No one had any shovels to clear the sidewalks nor were there any snow plows on the streets. I thought that I'd never see the day when a measly 6 inches of snow would absolutely cripple an entire region! All the rail lines cancelled services for two days including GNER and Virgin trains which are the two services that run between London and Scotland. Then when the services finally come back up, they immediately suspend services on the GNER between Berwyck-on-tweed and Newcastle due to downed overhead power lines. GNER told us that the trains would be back to normal the next day, so we waited until then. Woke up, turned on the Sky News Channel and what do I immediately see?
2)"GNER train crash in North Yorkshire-10 killed"
This happened north of Doncaster which is about 2 hours north of London on the line famously known as the "Route of the Flying Scotsman", otherwise known as the line that we were supposed to be riding on that morning. The train began at Newcastle which is south of the regular terminal at 4:45 am and crashed at 6:15 am in what has to have been the absolute freakiest chain of events that I will probably ever see. A man driving a Land Rover towing a used car that he was delivering to a buyer finds it's way onto the tracks after veering off the road (he says that he blew a tire, the police think that he may have fallen asleep). The man immediately calls 999 (their 911). Thirty seconds into the call, the GNER train comes through the area at 125 mph, the T/O places the brakes into emergency but still is unable to stop the train at such a high rate of speed and rams into the car which then derails the train and puts the train on the opposite track. In the opposite direction a freight train which is running 20 mins. early (ok'd by supv.) carrying an extremely heavy load of coal at 50 mph is coming and smacks into the GNER train. The freight T/O also placed the brakes into emergency but nothing could be done, the two trains collided at 140 mph at the time of impact. All this as the Land Rover driver watches on the side in disbelief with the 999 operator listening over the cell phone. All this happened within 60 seconds in the dark.
So with this unfortunate turn of events, we decide to try and take a bus back to London. One problem is that there are only two buses a day, we missed the first bus at 10 am and the next one is at 10:30 pm with the trip taking 10 hours. The lady over the phone also said that the trip could take an additional 6 hours with all the bad weather. So the bus was immediately ruled out. We wound up having to spend an additional £340 ($510) for two airline tickets. Mind you I hate flying so you've got to believe that this was the last option. Funny thing is that while Edinburgh got all this snow, 45 minutes to the west in Glasgow, they didn't see a single flake. And there is no real altitude difference between the two cities. Finally get back to London and go to the GNER ticket office to get our return ticket refunded. Go up to the lady to get a refund and then she has a nervous breakdown and starts to blame us for the crash. Whoa! Fortunately she goes to the back and stays there while another clerk processes our request. We finally get to our hotel room to settle down for a few days and then:
3)"Car bomb rocks BBC headquarters"
I was awake in the hotel room watching TV at 12:30 am when the blast occured less than a mile from where the bomb detonated. It created an ear piercing boom and shook the hotel (fortunately no glass broke). Meanwhile my wife sleeps right through it. Funny, my wife can sleep through a bomb exploding, but she complains about my snoring keeping her awake. Go figure!
Not all has been sour grapes however. We're actually having a blast (insert rimshot here). We saw the Glasgow metro which is a rather intriguing system. It has about 16 stations that run in a circle with the trains and platforms only 3 cars long. The fare is a flat 80p (about $1.20) with trains running on the inner loop and the outer loop. The trains look exactly like 1972 London Tube stock. I took a few pics and will gladly let anyone take a look if they're interested.
In London, we made it to the London Underground Museum Depot at Acton Town. It was a car barn transformed into a museum but not like a museum that I had ever seen before. It was like entering a miniature version of Coney Island Yard's Main Shop with the renovations of most of the cars in progress. Only one car out of all the cars on the six tracks were open for boarding with no electricity to light the cars up. There was also no sight of the 4 car 1938 tube stock train, only one car of it was shown (the only open car). Also pics were extremely difficult to take due to the cramped quarters as well as the crowds, so this part of the exhibit was very disappointing. But there was a rather interesting exhibit on the second floor showing all the actual signage that was used over the years within the Tube system. This was rather nice. I had taken pictures of a few of the interesting ones including some of the old line maps as well as the signs taken from the closed Central line stations at North Weald and Ongar.
But back downstairs was the big treat. All different types of railfans set up tables displaying their wares that were for sale. One man was selling all different types of old maps, all in like new condition dating all the way back to 1947 including a 1948 trolleybus/tram map that looked like it was about a year old. Absolute pristine condition. So I had picked up a few maps and asked the prices on all of the items. He said that the price of the maps would be 15p each (about 22 cents)! When I had heard that, I almost bought out his entire table! With all of the tables set up (including a few run by London Transport), I had gotten my filthy mits on:
Many maps between 1947 and 1979 including maps celebrating the opening of the Heathrow Airport station.
Books on the Paris RER system, the Berlin U-Bahn, and one book on the Glasgow subway called "Circles Under The City" which was a book that I couldn't put down.
I also got brand new Bakerloo Line map stickers, the exact kind that they have inside the cars showing all the stops and connections. I would've also gotten the Victoria Line stickers but the guy ahead of me bought the last few.
A 1954 London Underground timetable book.
A 1969 London Underground rule book.
A poster called "Above Ground" which was the same as the sticker that is shown inside all of the Piccadilly Line cars.
A 1937 NYCTA Rule Book (the blue one) in very good condition. My hairs on the back of my neck almost stood up when I had seen this.
I had purchased all of these items for less than $100. The depot is open 3 weekends a year with the next one scheduled for July. I strongly reccommend that you try to attend one of their "open house" dates. You'll be like a kid in a candy store with a fist full of $20's. Find out more at: www.ltmuseum.co.uk
I was also able to get my hands on a rather interesting no-frills type map called "NY Subways Historical Map-2nd edition" for £1.20 (about $1.80). It shows the outline of the lines with no stations shown except the terminals and other major stations. The map points out the exact dates of opening for the entire system and also points out some of the discontinued lines and their dates of opening and closing. For example I'll show the route of the F line with the opening dates listed:
Stillwell Av to Avenue X (lower level at W 8 St)- May 1,1920 the upper level opened May 29,1919.*
Kings Hwy to Avenue X- Mar.10,1919*
Ditmas Av to Kings Hwy- Mar.16,1919* (note by mapmaker:part of original BRT through route to C.I.)
*-alongside it shows the route of the South Brooklyn railroad from the 38 St docks to the Coney Island Yard area which began circa 1902.
Church Av to Ditmas Av (ramp)- Oct.30,1954
Bergen St to Church Av- Oct.7,1933
Jay St to Bergen St- Mar.30,1933
Second Av to Jay St- Apr.9,1936
Chrystie st cut- Nov.26,1967
W 4 St to Second Av- Jan.1,1936
W 4 St to Rockefeller Ctr (up to 59 St on the D line)-Dec.15,1940
Rockefeller Center to Roosevelt Av- Aug.19,1933
Roosevelt Av to Union Tpke- Dec.31,1936
Line from Continental Av to the World's Fair- opened Apr.30,1939, closed 1940(no date)
Jamaica Yard- opened 1936
Union Tpke to 169 St- Apr.24,1937
169 St to 179 St- Dec.10,1950
The map was printed in 1993 by "The Quail Map Company, 31 Lincoln Road, Exeter, England EX4 2DZ". If most of the information in the map is correct then it's definitely worth the two bucks for it.
Well that's it for now, will get back to you guys in a few days. Our portion to Zurich was cancelled due to the fact that neither one of us is up to the train ride, next year maybe. Hope all goes well and hope the snow stays to decent levels for you all. BTW, it's 60 degrees in London (had to brag you know!)
Under #3, our room was less than a mile from the blast
> The depot is open 3 weekends a year with the next one
> scheduled for July
I believe Acton is actually open the last Sunday of every month but booking is far in advance. Simon Billis & I could not get into the March 30 tour (even after a whine of "but I'm coming from Aammmmmericaaaa!") and were advised to book now for April (of course, I'm not going to BE there in April). Did you have a previous reservation or did you "just show up"?
But alternative plans were made and we might get to check out the 1960 Cravens stock train at Ruislip Depot instead. Fingers crossed!
Zman, if your Glasgow underground photos come out I'd be glad to have them for the site.
-Dave
I just showed up with £6.95 and they let me right in, along with everyone else of course. I made sure to go on one of the open house days instead of the days that you need to reserve on.
And I'd be glad to let you have my Glasgow pictures when they come out. I'll let you know when I get back to the US.
How's everything overthere? Did you get a chance to go to the London Undergrond subway? I think your wife just not used to you Snoring. Well. She might just get used to it. Everything in NYC is fine. Snow is starting to MELT in NYC. The Hardest hit was Suffolk. The Jersey shore almost got Flooded. And the Jersey shore was A OK. I hope you Enjoy the Rest of your time. So long for now.
Dominick Bermudez.
Everything is quite allright as long as you don't watch the news. With the IRA bombing and the train crash dominating the news, it starts to grind on you. And we've taken the Underground every day that we're in London. Currently the closest station is Holland Park on the Central Line.
And when you come to London, avoid the Circle Line if you can, it makes the G look like a 5 carat diamond. Every other line is fine, although the Piccadilly Line can get extremely crowded as it can only run a maximum of 6 cars.
They are long cars though. Curves on the Piccadilly Line are less sharp than the other two Yerkes Tubes (Bakerloo and West End branch of Northern Line) and so a six car train does the work of seven on the other two.
Sounds like you had a great time, zman.
I've heard of the Quail Map Co. I bought one of their maps from Arnold Joseph last year. It was an interesting map in that it showed EVERY rail line in the NYC area -- meaning NYC subways and yards, the LIRR lines, NJ Transit, PATH, MetroNorth and New Haven lines. It was about as thorough and "railfan friendly" as a map can get. The only drawback was that it was already out-dated by 15 years with references to the SBK's McDonald Ave. trackage, and some other details.
Nice to have you back at SubTalk.
BMTman
Is it true you have tri-pod set up at the Storm Window & that you ask all the TOs to clean that window for you ?
Just kidding ... enjoy being a customer for a change !
Mr t__:^)
Sounds like after you hit the deck, you hit the jackpot!
What an amazing experience, I must say.
Isn't it weird to be travelling all those miles to be purchasing things about your home subway system that you couldn't purchase here?
I remember being in London with my wife in 1988, and we "just happened to stumble" on a great train show during our stay! If not for the limited spare suitcase room, I would have come back with many more toys than I did!
--mark
> If not for the limited spare suitcase room
that's what fedex is for, nowadays :)
" that what is Fedex is for"
You forgot to ment UPS too.
Dominick Bermudez.
(fed-ex) I was real cheap then :)
--Mark
Absolutely! Everyone should visit London at least once in their lifetime.
The first time we came here in 1999, every time we went out to eat was a bad experience. The second time around was different though, we found some excellent spots to dine. Especially because we found the spots NOT to go.
Remember these establishments: Angus or Aberdeen steak houses. They make Burger King look like a five star restaurant. Avoid at all costs!
In the Theatre district was a Chinese restaurant called Wong Kee. If you like Chinese, and if that restaurant is still there, you won't be disappointed.
--Mark
Recently we discussed severe weather plans and it made me wonder: When a train goes to layup (or to the yard) does a regular train crew take it there? If so, how do they get back home?
In other words, do train crews always finish their shift at the same place (station or yard) they started from?
And in a related vein, for employees that must report to a yard or other non-station facility, does the MTA provide any kind of shuttle service to a nearby station, or do they have to find their own way there?
Trains are laid-up and/or put-in by either Road TOs, Yard TOs or Station Switchmen. If they need to return to the terminal, they go to the nearest station and ride the next train.
No, we do not always finish at the same place we started from.
No Transit doesn't provide us any means of transportation other than regularly scheduled trains.
During our "President's Day Brooklyn El Field Trip" we were going up the M & there at the Storm Window was a TO on his way home. He recognized us right away, as railfans that is.
At our depot the bus drivers have the same problem as TOs, i.e. it's up to them to get here in the rain & snow, etc.
Mr t__:^)
Yet another virus to look out for. NAKED WIFE
Peace,
ANDEE
Does anyone know what year the old H and M "black cars" were last in service. It doesn't matter what class, A thru H. I can recall them in work service in the mid to late 70's, repainted in yellow.
My guess would be that they had some as late as 1988 when the PA-4's came into service and the PA-1/3's had been retrofitted to MU with the PA-4's. This would have allowed the "K" fleet to be retired to work service.
The Shoreline Trolley museum has #503, a J Class, and late 80s sounds about right for when she arrived there. It's project leader happens to be a PATH operator.
The book "Gotham Turnsyiles" has info on cars from both sides of the river, but a lot on the PATH cars ... color photos too ... price isn't too bad either.
Mr t__:^)
I think the pre-war H&M cars were out of passenger service by
the early 1970s, then shunted into work service. If SubwayAl
still posts here he'd be able to tell you the exact dates as
he was involved in the acquisition of a class J car by Branford.
THe cars were definitly out of service by the late 70's. the K's were still used in the rush hours until the purchase of the PA'4's
If you mean the "Black Widow" type cars from the 1920's, they were run last in 1965 as I recall, but someone may want to check some old "Bulletins" for sure. Some of the oldest classes were retired earlier.
I know there were some still running in Work Service as of early 1979, painted yellow. In 1980 I found 503 at Branford, and when I asked (OK, pestered) a bunch of PATH conductors about the old cars, was told they had all been disposed of.
There were a bunch of K-cars dedicated to Work Service since the early 1980s if not before. I got shots of them on the fly during a visit in October, 1980. There's probably still some around, I would guess. There have also been some PA cars assigned to Work Service in more recent times, but I have no idea which ones.
I wrote this. Some of it is in bad taste, but I think it's funny. Let me know what you think. Unpleasant critisism is fine.
SLOAPP
What makes you think you need rules to get people to act this way?
Those are VERY STUPID Rules you have there.
Dominick Bermudez.
UMMM, it's called sarcasm and I thought it was pretty funny.
Peace,
ANDEE
People are calling these rules of mine stupid. Please note that this is a JOKE. It's simply a sarcastic view of the TA. I love the subway system and I'm just playing around. It's supposed to be stupid. I like writing humor. We computer techs have to do something when all the PCs are working fine. (Which is rare.) I'd like to hear Dave Pirmann's take on SLOAPP.
It would appear you have the first symptoms of HPS. We will know you have a full case of it when you no longer use caps.
Mr t__:^)
GREAT sarcasm, sounds like a typical day on the TA.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's in exteremely poor taste. I love it! :)
LMAO!!! LMAO!!! LMAO!!! Fell of my desk chair and think I mighta broke a rib or two from laughing too hard!! Reminds me of something very similar I saw when I was in the service, probably not suitable for public posting. Thanks 4 the side-splitting humor you brought into my day! This was not sarcastic at all but rather the same kind of facetious parody you'd see on like saturday night live or living color or something. Thanks again!
Regards, Thomas ;-)
Thanks for the laughs!! Trouble is, it's all TRUE, TRUE, TRUE!!!
And the really SAD part? It also applies not only to New York, but ANY city in this country that has rail and bus transit. (Omit the rail rules for cities that have only buses!)
An addition:
When people are waiting at a bus stop, DO NOT STOP, even if your bus is empty, Once they start running towards your bus with butcher knives, you would have successfully accomplished SLOAPP. If you have to run red lights to lose them, do so. And don't open the doors when they walk up, or bang on the doors so much the glass breaks.
LOL! Very good! I forgot that one!!!
No no - you have to make sure that the people at the stop are carrying multiple bulky items, then stop short of the bus stop, or stop in the middle of the street and refuse to kneel. Then, the driver must proceed to drive as the passengers try to balance themselves while holding said bulky items and attempting to deposit their coins in the box.
Do any of the current Stubway proposals specify the exact siting of the northern terminus at 125th St? I know it's supposed to connect for a transfer to the Lex. But since we know the line will never be extended to the Bronx, here's a thought. Instead of locating the station on a north-south axis, why not locate it east-west along 125th St., between Lex and Park. Thus it would not only connect to the Lex, but also to Metro-North at 125th. It would give MN riders an alternate direct connection to the subway, plus a protected underground connection to the Lex through the new station.
Lexington to Park is not a long distance anyway. Why not build a connnection now to the Lex - and add the Second Avenue line to it as well.
Sure, but it's more efficient, and cheaper, to build it as part of the large contracts for the whole 2d Ave. line.
Good idea
Current proposals bring a train over to Lex, north-south parallel to existing Lex service. 125th St would then become a station placing both lines within the same fare-control.
I like my idea better. Not only do you get a connection to MNRR, you build the station under the street. That has got to be easier than making it parallel to the Lex, under existing buildings.
Your idea certainly has merit. Have you shared it w/MTA and your local state assemblyperson?
Your idea also leads into a 125th Street crosstown line, with stops at Lex-Park (transfer to the 4/5/6 and Metro-North), Lenox (transfer to the 2/3), St. Nicholas (transfer to the A/B/C/D), Broadway (transfer to the 1/9, with elevators), Marginal Street (under the Henry Hudson Parkway, by Fairway), and Riverbank State Park.
That would be a great boon not only to Harlem ,but to Riverdale, Wash. Hts., Inwood, for whose residents it is now impossible to get to the east side without going down to 59th or 42d.
I'm sure it would be used by residents of the Upper West Side and Upper East Side, too (particularly the latter); in many cases it would be faster than going down to 42nd and coming back up or riding the crosstown bus.
I think the main idea is to have a direct track connection to the 8th Avenue/St. Nicholas subway somewhere between 125th and 135th. Alternating trains from 207th Street (the others would be the A train as we know it now) would run directly to the 2nd Avenue line via either a 125th or 135th Street crosstown connection.
[I think the main idea is to have a direct track connection to the 8th Avenue/St. Nicholas subway somewhere between 125th and 135th. Alternating trains from 207th Street (the others would be the A train as we know it now) would run directly to the 2nd Avenue line via either a 125th or 135th Street crosstown connection.]
Which raises an interesting point. I think we need an 86th Street crosstown link even more, because of the population density and the traffic on the East Side. But if the 57th Street station on the Broadway were connected with a passage to the 59th Street station on the 8th and 7th Avenue lines, the 60th Street line would serve as a crosstown link, between the subway lines, anyway.
Since they're never going to build this stuff, and admittedly there are higher priorities, it seems to me we should take a look at alternatives that would be almost as good and wouldn't require a massive investment, such as subway-loading buses that make limited stops on dedicated streets or double bus lanes. That wouldn't work very well below 96th Street because of the traffic, but it might work in Upper Manhattan, where many of the streets have little traffic.
I think if the political leaders from Upper Manhattan wanted to, they could put enough pressure on the MTA to at least put the idea of extending the Second Ave. line across 125th St. into play, instead of stopping at Lexington Ave.
If nothing else, holding their feet to the fire on a 125th St. crosstown route would force the MTA's planners to show their cards on what their future plans, if any, were for the northern terminal of the Second Ave. line. Ending it at Lex is more justifyable if the MTA really has a plan to extend the thing into the Bronx via the Pelham line; if they just want to dead-end it at Lexington Ave., then running over to either a terminal at St. Nicholas (or west) or a link up with the A/B/C/D lines makes far more sense.
[Since they're never going to build this stuff, and admittedly there are higher priorities, it seems to me we should take a look at alternatives that would be almost as good and wouldn't require a massive investment, such as subway-loading buses that make limited stops on dedicated streets or double bus lanes. ]
They should consider honour fare paying system on those routes.
Arti
[They should consider honour fare paying system on those routes]
The could put a couple of metrocard sliders by the doors and sound an alarm and make a videotape if someone goes in without paying. Then sit tight until the guy goes or the cops arrive. People would get the message soon enough.
It's fairly easy to do I think with current technology. But if you didn't want to be fancy, the driver could monitor the two rear doors on a screen. Or the video could be transmitted to a central location, to be monitored by dedicated personnel. Much more efficient than conductors, because they could handle multiple buses (if they don't fall asleep).
They could also build mini stations, since we're talking about limited stops here, with an iron maiden and gates that retract only when a bus is present.
Or they could just make the goddamn system free . . .
Sorry if I'm a bit skeptical about an honor system in New York -- trust but verify, as Ronald Reagan used to say!
[Or they could just make the goddamn system free . . . ]
IMHO, that would make sense especially on routes where most of the people have to take another mode trransportation anyway.
[Sorry if I'm a bit skeptical about an honor system in New York --]
Honor system includes verification (like NJT LRT,) you'll have hefty fines if you get caught cheating. Also this would allow to use buses with multiple doors for rfaster loading.
[trust but verify, as Ronald Reagan used to say! ]
BTW Joe Stalin used to say the same :-)
Arti
[Honor system includes verification (like NJT LRT,) you'll have hefty fines if you get caught cheating. Also this would allow to use buses with multiple doors for rfaster loading.]
It would be great *if* they took the trouble to enforce it. Not sure if they'd bother!
As I understand it, it works in NJ (HBLR, Newark)
Arti
[As I understand it, it works in NJ (HBLR, Newark)]
I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here. Still, if there's an angle, people in New York will find it--just look at all those people who get on the buses by the back door.
[Still, if there's an angle, people in New York will find it--just look at all those people who get on the buses by the back door. ]
I've only seen it once, me and others were waiting for x-town M34 for about 45 minutes, then a bus came, and only few fit in. Main reason was that nobody was moving to the back. When the next bus came we had learned our lesson and lot of people entered through the back door.
note: I had an unlimited card, so I was not beating the fare.
Arti
[I had an unlimited card, so I was not beating the fare.]
It seems to me that this is the sort of thing that could be tried easily. Just set up a pilot line, publicize it, and see what the compliance is. If the program works, expand it.
I just remembered something about new trackless trolleys in Estonia. The system somehow counts the fares and compares it to the weight of the load, if there's a discrepency it gets flagged and an inspector gets sent to check compliance.
Arti
[I just remembered something about new trackless trolleys in Estonia. The system somehow counts the fares and compares it to the weight of the load, if there's a discrepency it gets flagged and an inspector gets sent to check compliance.]
That's an interesting idea. But what if a 350 lb guy gets on the bus?
[That's an interesting idea. But what if a 350 lb guy gets on the bus? ]
My guess would be that the bus gets flagged, still better than doing those checks totally randomly.
Arti
Still, if there's an angle, people in New York will find it--just look at all those people who get on the buses by the back door.
Except following a major service disruption, I've never seen this en masse except on the M60.
[Except following a major service disruption, I've never seen this en masse except on the M60.]
It's usually just a few kids
"They could also build mini stations, since we're talking about limited stops here, with an iron maiden and gates that retract only when a bus is present."
I believe two cities in Brazil use a system like that...
[I believe two cities in Brazil use a system like that... ]
Interesting. Someone also mentioned a city in Canada that has bus stations, forget which one . . .
The main idea? Not my main idea.
That idea is based on the assumption that, outside of Midtown, everyone in Manhattan is going north or south, with little crosstown correctional jogs. As a matter of fact, a lot of people in Manhattan are simply going across town, with little north-south correctional jogs.
The 1/9 has no crosstown connections north of 42nd Street. It has a near miss at 53rd and another at 57th. You're pushing for a third at 125th. I think that's a big mistake. There are a lot of people along the 1/9 corridor who currently have the choice of enduring the crosstown bus or going down to 42nd and back up just to go across town. A line across 125th would offer another option.
The M60 is one of the major routes from LGA to Manhattan. It offers connections to all the subway lines at 125th, but it takes forever to get across town. A subway line would allow M60 passengers to jump ship (uh, bus) and would offer an alternative to the M60 and other (overcrowded) 125th Street crosstown buses to Harlem residents. If the subway line turned north at St. Nicholas, anyone going further west -- Columbia students, Upper West Siders bound for the 1/9 and M104 -- would be out in the cold.
West of Broadway, underneath Riverside Drive and the Henry Hudson Parkway, there is lots of room for development. Fairway is already there, but it's difficult to get to without a car. From Fairway, the subway line would run along the river side of the parkway (it's already there -- it would rise to street level and simply follow the SB offramp) and terminate at Riverbank State Park, another piece of Harlem that's a pain to get to.
I'm not convinced the line needs to run further north, but from RSB it could easily continue up to Columbia Presbyterian and either cross into New Jersey or merge into the A. But the current St. Nicholas line certainly doesn't need more service.
I agree. I would favor a line across 125th with transfers, but not necessarily track connections, to the N-S lines. That would serve the increasingly crowded 125th corridor, and provide easy access from the upper Upper W. side to the east side, and vice versa.
Ok, I can see that this idea has merit. A track connection at St. Nicholas Avenue might be worth having for non-revenue moves (access to 207th Street shops, e.g.) and service diversions.
In any case, the residents of the Bronx and Upper Manhattan should demand that they get more benefits out of any 2nd Avenue plan. As things stand now, the MTA has given almost no thought to this.
"In any case, the residents of the Bronx and Upper Manhattan should demand that they get more benefits out of any 2nd Avenue plan. As things stand now, the MTA has given almost no thought to this."
The MTA has not publicly discussed this because there isn't any point to discussing options (no matter how useful) which have no standing in the Capital budget and no visible advocates. The MTA 2nd Av plans have historically included extensions to the Bronx, but thereis no money now in the Capital Plan for that. Bronx residents will benefit from the ability to transfer to 2nd Av service at the 125 St station. Continued advocacy to the MTA, the Governor and to the State Assembly and Senate may help bring other projects to fruition.
[The MTA has not publicly discussed this because there isn't any point to discussing options (no matter how useful) which have no standing in the Capital budget and no visible advocates. ]
The 2nd Ave subway has no construction (only preliminary engineering) financed in Capital budget either. The construction would be hopefully funded by the next Capital budget (2005 -2009.) Let's not forget how quickly the study of extending 7 to the West Side got study financing when Giuliani started to push it. The main obstacle as you noted is no public advocacy to extend it.
Arti
"The 2nd Ave subway has no construction (only preliminary engineering) financed in Capital budget either. The construction would be hopefully funded by the next Capital budget (2005 -2009.)"
The MTA has stated that construction contracts will be put out to bid in 2003-4.
"Let's not forget how quickly the study of extending 7 to the West Side got study financing when Giuliani started to push it. The main obstacle as you noted is no public advocacy to extend it. "
Agreed.
[The MTA has stated that construction contracts will be put out to bid in 2003-4. ]
So they either would have the next budget ready by that time or perhaps they have a right to decline (when there would be no financing for whatever reason?)
Arti
The current budget as stated in the Capital Plan includes both engineering and construction money for the Second Avenue Subway. However, the shortfall caused by the failure of the bond act will need to be addressed - but there are a lot of ways to do that, including ditching pr extending projects which are not as prominent on the radar.
Still, my point is that even the best case cenario wouldn't build it. It's a long term project spanning few Capital fundings. So far we have moneis til 2004.
[, including ditching pr extending projects which are not as prominent on the radar. ]
I can think of one, LIRR to GC.
Arti
"Still, my point is that even the best case cenario wouldn't build it. It's a long term project spanning few Capital fundings. So far we have moneis til 2004."
Yes, that's correct.
"[, including ditching pr extending projects which are not as prominent on the radar. ]
I can think of one, LIRR to GC. "
No, they're probably not going to ditch that one (but anything's possible in this world) because Pataki wants it.
My guesss is to that they will build LIRR to GCT, and part of the 2nd Avenue under the LIRR to GCT. But at that point the MTA will be so deep in debt that we will be lucky if they don't go back to deferred maintenance.
That's why this capital plan is such a disaster, as we discussed at the time. And as for advocacy, the city's business community, the transit workers union, and the straphangers (for what they're worth) all went nuts about the debt at the time, and all the newspapers condemned it.
"In any case, the residents of the Bronx and Upper Manhattan should demand that they get more benefits out of any 2nd Avenue plan. As things stand now, the MTA has given almost no thought to this. "
HOW MUCH MORE DO THESE GUYS WANT!!!! THEY ALREADY GOT FOUR LINES RUNNING IN THEIR DIRECTION! DAMN! GREEDY!
I say keep the 2nd Avenue line a seperate route from those lines paralleling it.
N BROADWAY LINE
ASTORIA
How about Edgewater, NJ and a connection to hopefully-built some day HBLR to the area. Believe it is in the plans??? [??]
bigedirtmanl,
I think the #7 has a better chance being extended to NJ for three reasons: First, It's located in the heart of the Business District. And two, the Flushing terminal isn't that far. And lastly, it's would be in the backyard of business that sit on that side of Jersey in oppose to the 125th Street route.
N Broadway
[The M60 is one of the major routes from LGA to Manhattan. It offers connections to all the subway lines at 125th, but it takes forever to get across town. A subway line would allow M60 passengers to jump ship (uh, bus) and would offer an alternative to the M60 and other (overcrowded) 125th Street crosstown buses to Harlem residents. If the subway line turned north at St. Nicholas, anyone going further west -- Columbia students, Upper West Siders bound for the 1/9 and M104 -- would be out in the cold.
West of Broadway, underneath Riverside Drive and the Henry Hudson Parkway, there is lots of room for development. Fairway is already there, but it's difficult to get to without a car. From Fairway, the subway line would run along the river side of the parkway (it's already there -- it would rise to street level and simply follow the SB offramp) and terminate at Riverbank State Park, another piece of Harlem that's a pain to get to. ]
I think there would have to massive traffic or a pressing business argument to justify a 125th Street connection in lieu of other priorities. And there isn't, not by comparison to the needs of areas like the Queens corridor and the East Side.
I'm skeptical on another count as well. Traffic may be slow on 125th Street, but it flows smoothly in many other areas. I don't think there's any excuse for building a subway where traffic is light enough to offer comparable service. It's just too extraordinarily expensive. The problem I think is that we need some kind of intermediate bus service, with frequent service, dedicated streets, subway-style loading, direct, fare-controlled links to the subway stations, and limited stops. That would give riders nearly everything they would get from a crosstown line: it would trade off a bit of speed for lower headway. Lots of those cross streets are lightly travelled any time of the day. But the crossings below 86th Street 59th are another story; traffic on the East Side is just too heavy for fast crosstown service. So an 86th Crosstown, yes. And in the business districts, doubly yes.
While your points are well taken, I believe that it would be prudent to anticipate a cross-town line under 125th Street in the indefinite future and design and build the current project in such a way as to facilitate such an addition when the need arises and other priorities have been met. Since the proposed allignment leaves 2nd Ave. south of one of the already-completed tunnel sections, I would suggest that provision be made at the point that the proposed tunnel leaves 2nd Ave for a link to the existing tunnel section and to a future Harlem River tunnel to the Bronx. Doing so would eliminate one of the reasons for orienting the new 125th St. station along a north/south axis (provision for future track connection to the Bronx) and allow the end of the line to be pointed west under 125th St. While we're dreaming, provision should also be made for a link to an East River tunnel to Queens to provide service to LGA.
[While your points are well taken, I believe that it would be prudent to anticipate a cross-town line under 125th Street in the indefinite future and design and build the current project in such a way as to facilitate such an addition when the need arises and other priorities have been met. Since the proposed allignment leaves 2nd Ave. south of one of the already-completed tunnel sections, I would suggest that provision be made at the point that the proposed tunnel leaves 2nd Ave for a link to the existing tunnel section and to a future Harlem River tunnel to the Bronx. Doing so would eliminate one of the reasons for orienting the new 125th St. station along a north/south axis (provision for future track connection to the Bronx) and allow the end of the line to be pointed west under 125th St. While we're dreaming, provision should also be made for a link to an East River tunnel to Queens to provide service to LGA.]
All true, except that I'd retain the north-south orientation of the station.
You could bring LGA trains into upper Manhattan easily enough by sending them up the Hell's Gate line and across the southern tip of the Bronx, then down again via the Park Avenue line.
I think those MN lines are a hidden treasure. They could be used for any number of wonderful services. My favorite this week:
Riverdale, Fordham, and Co-Op City high-amenity superexpress subway service via existing MN lines and a link through the yard at the southern end of the Bronx to join existing MN/NHRR Park Avenue service with superexpress stations at 86th Street and 63rd-59th Street (linked by high speed motorized walkway to the Lex), then via the Broadway line making stops at 57 (with a high speed link to Columbus circle), 42nd, 34th, then local stops in lower manhattan, terminating at Canal
LIRR service from Jamaica-Atlantic Avenue-Manhattan Bridge-Canal-up third track of Broadway line to yards in Midtown
Run both Hudson tunnels in one direction (except for occasional Amtrak train) & take the trains from the second tunnel back down the fourth track of the Broadway line and out to the Atlantic Avenue branch, then to yard. Also provides LI-NJ thru service and LIRR reverse commute
1/4 of the NJT/LIRR service travels to/from JFK Airtrain via Jamaica. Instead of going to yard it continues on through 63rd Street tunnel to Hell's Gate line and serves LaGuardia. Direct trains also run between LGA and JFK via existing freight line and when capacity opens up in future direct trains can run to EWR Monorail.
Instead of terminating at WTC, enhanced E service now goes across a bit at Canal to meet the commuter RR's and continues down the Broadway line to lower Manhattan and Queens, eventually sharing the tunnel with the Second Avenue Subway via the Nassau Street line.
You don't have to build anything but connections & a few stations, & you can cut back on that if you want (e.g, Co-Op City trains could come in along Hell's Gate and just offer a transfer to the subway in Queens or come in via the 63rd St. tunnel, and it's not necessary to reroute the A), & it's only the beginning of what you can do with nothing but existing infrastructure . . .
"You could bring LGA trains into upper Manhattan easily enough by sending them up the Hell's Gate line and across the southern tip of the Bronx, then down again via the Park Avenue line."
I hope it won't be a subway line, because I think Amtrak uses that bridge. And since Amatrak uses that bridge, the subway would have to follow a stricker regulation. On top of that, like the NJ line, it would have to pay rent to Amtrak. That could be pretty expensive. Plus you also have to consider the freight which uses that bridge as well.
Triborough is a better candidate. But I don't think that bridge is designed to carry heavy equipment. I walk the bridge all the time. It's long and have a lot of curves in it. It also shakes when heavy trucks run across it.
Since metro north/LIRR already runs dual service with Amtrak, I think MNRR/LIRR would be a better candidate.
N Broadway Line
[I hope it won't be a subway line, because I think Amtrak uses that bridge. And since Amatrak uses that bridge, the subway would have to follow a stricker regulation. On top of that, like the NJ line, it would have to pay rent to Amtrak. That could be pretty expensive. Plus you also have to consider the freight which uses that bridge as well.
Since metro north/LIRR already runs dual service with Amtrak, I think MNRR/LIRR would be a better candidate.]
I agree. I was thinking of using MN trains, though they could run on the LIRR tracks too (overhead on MN, shoes on LIRR).
Othewise, I think the Hell's Gate line is very lightly used -- only a few Amtrak trains an hour and an occasional freight. You could also use it for NHRR and Co-Op City service to Penn Station.
I think there would have to massive traffic or a pressing business argument to justify a 125th Street connection in lieu of other priorities. And there isn't, not by comparison to the needs of areas like the Queens corridor and the East Side.
What does one thing have to do with the other? This line would feed into 2nd Avenue and have no impact on Queens.
We all know the East Side has a shortage of service -- we can point to the current East Side subway line and see how overcrowded it is. We can't do that on 125th Street because there is no current subway line there to point to. That doesn't mean one isn't warranted. A variety of bus routes regularly ply across 125th Street -- and, at least during rush hours, they're packed.
As for Queens, what's the problem there? The locals have tons of empty space. Sure, they're a bit slower than the expresses (at least in theory) -- but the 125th Street crosstown buses are even slower.
I'm skeptical on another count as well. Traffic may be slow on 125th Street, but it flows smoothly in many other areas.
You mean on the parallel side streets? Many of the side streets don't run through, due to hills, parks, etc. And, more importantly, the side streets aren't where the masses want to go.
The problem I think is that we need some kind of intermediate bus service, with frequent service, dedicated streets, subway-style loading, direct, fare-controlled links to the subway stations, and limited stops.
I don't think that would be much cheaper than a full-fledged subway.
But the crossings below 86th Street 59th are another story; traffic on the East Side is just too heavy for fast crosstown service. So an 86th Crosstown, yes. And in the business districts, doubly yes.
You're awfully Midtown-centric. Look at the subways north of 60th Street: they all run north-south. That's fine for getting to Midtown but it's terrible for getting anywhere else. Some people need to go elsewhere.
I live near 86th Street. Personally, I'd love to see a crosstown subway line there. But I don't think it would make much sense. Crosstown buses are slower on 125th than on 86th, in large part due to the fast run through Central Park. And of the three existing subway stations on 86th, two are local stops, while all trains stop at 125th (the Broadway center track bypasses 125th but it isn't currently used in revenue service anyway).
Let's look at the first step: if the 2nd Avenue line is built at all, and it terminates at 125th and Lex, will it be oriented north-south or east-west? Orienting it north-south doesn't accomplish much except for allowing for easier transfers to the 4/5/6. (I don't think a B Division line could share trackage with the 4/5/6 under the Harlem River to connect to one of the existing Bronx lines; a new tunnel would have to be built anyway.) Orienting it east-west allows for a future extension across 125th. (Notice, also, that a 125th Street crosstown could be extended in the future to LGA over essentially the route of the M60.)
[Orienting it north-south doesn't accomplish much except for allowing for easier transfers to the 4/5/6]
Can't see how? Don't forget that the 125th Street has bi-level island platforms.
[(I don't think a B Division line could share trackage with the 4/5/6 under the Harlem River to connect to one of the existing Bronx lines; a new tunnel would have to be built anyway.) ]
That portion of the IRT was built to BMT specs, so there's no problem using those tunnels.
Arti
That portion of the IRT was built to BMT specs, so there's no problem using those tunnels.
The problem is one of capacity: the 4/5 fills up one pair of tracks and the 6 another pair. The Second Avenue line can continue to the Bronx only by displacing an existing Bronx line, which would yield minimal gains. Orient the line westward and it can be later extended to a new corridor entirely.
[The Second Avenue line can continue to the Bronx only by displacing an existing Bronx line, which would yield minimal gains. Orient the line westward and it can be later extended to a new corridor entirely. ]
And would cost significantly more. B division trains have higher capacity. Shortening Lex local would leave more room for local riders below 125th Street, effectively increasing capacity.
Arti
But having the Second Ave. line take over the Lex -- unless it's a length of the island route down to City Hall or South Ferry -- won't solve the problem of overcrowding on the 4/5, because most people coming down from Pelham won't opt for the "teacup handle" route that goes east, then west at 63rd, and they won't take the No. 6 even if it's starting its run at 125th, because of all the local stops from there to Midtown. What they will do is transfer at 125th for the express, which will help passengers at Lex local stops south of 125th, but won't do a thing for jammed up Woodlawn and Dyer passengers.
If they want the B Division to take over the Pelham line, build a new tunnel and hook it up at 138th and Third and terminate the 6 there. That way, Pelham riders wanting the Lex express would have to make two transfers, which would be too much of a hassle. And if they don't want a new tunnel, running the Second Ave. line all the way across 125th to at least St. Nicholas would be the most beneficial route.
"But having the Second Ave. line take over the Lex -- unless it's a length of the island route down to City Hall or South Ferry -- won't solve the problem of overcrowding on the 4/5, because most people coming down from Pelham won't opt for the "teacup handle" route that goes east, then west at 63rd"
Correct - that's an interim line. The lower half (to the southern tip of Manhattan) will be under construction while trains use the upper half of the subway to 63rd St. You have to start somewhere. Design decisions to help the "stubway" portion be more useful are needed, but realize that 63rd St is not the end of the line.
If a line takes you wherever you want to go you're unlikely to transfer. I have friends who don't give a squat about the Subway, but they stay on the local if it takes where they need to go. I guess that they have realised that there's not much difference there....
Arti
The people who have seats are more likely to stay on, but if they build a Second Ave. line with a station paralell to the existing 125th-Lex stop, people -- especially those standing up already -- will transfer to the 4/5 express because people have always transfered to the express. That's why the IND put so few local stops in midtown Manhattan, to discourage people from transfering to the express.
If the Second Ave. platform is put far enough away from the 4/5 at 125th and Lex, then people may stay on the Second Ave. train, even with its roundabout route downtown. But until a full-length Second Ave. line is built, there will be a lot of transfers, both for speed and because a lot of people will want an East Side train who work south of 57th Street.
"If the Second Ave. platform is put far enough away from the 4/5 at 125th and Lex, then people may stay on the Second Ave. train, even with its roundabout route downtown. But until a full-length Second Ave. line is built, there will be a lot of transfers, both for speed and because a lot of people will want an East Side train who work south of 57th Street."
Would you be in favor of the Second Av terminal being at Second Av and 125 Street? Or perhaps (just speculation) turning east and terminating at First Avenue?
[Or perhaps (just speculation) turning east and terminating at First Avenue? ]
I don't think there's enough room to do that unless you do some tunneling under the river.
Arti
My real prefrence, if the B Divsion is to take over Pelham, would be for a new tunnel running under the Harlem River to 138th St., and then terminate the 6 at 138th and Third Ave., which would keep the Second Ave. line completely away from the 4/5.
But if there has to be a station at 125th and Lex for the new line, it should be between Third and Lex Aves. on 125th St., which would then allow the option of either turning north on Lex to take over the 6 tunnel or continuing west on 125th to St. Nicholas Ave., where it could hook up with the A/B/C/D.
"My real prefrence, if the B Divsion is to take over Pelham, would be for a new tunnel running under the Harlem River to 138th St., and then terminate the 6 at 138th and Third Ave., which would keep the Second Ave. line completely away from the 4/5."
As I posted before, the MTA was thinking about extending a Second Av line to the Bronx (although perhaps not exactly that way).
It is still theoretically possible in the future (e.g. a branch goes up into the Bronx while the shorter branch goes to and terminates at 125/Lex) Please note that I write my comments assuming that the current engineering request (CM 1188), available on MTA's website, is the one which will actually happen.
If a 2d Ave. extension to the Bronx would continue straight up 2nd Ave, rather than from the proposed terminus at 125th and Lex, leaving that terminus as a stub, then clearly the terminus at 125th and Lex should align east-west, so it can be extended some day across 125th, as many on this thread have proposed.
I agree with your logic. What can I say? Write to MTA and see how they respond.
"Would you be in favor of the Second Av terminal being at Second Av and 125 Street? Or perhaps (just speculation) turning east and terminating at First Avenue?"
Absolutely NOT! The Second Avenue line should turn west towards 125th Street, ending up at Broadway or Riverside Drive. Connections with all the line parrelling it should be made. Including an easy transfer with the Metro North.
Another line should continue along second avenue into the Bronx. Then connecting to the 6 and than the 2/5 along 3rd Avenue elevated.
The other line could go via the old boston railroad tracks, terminating at Dyre Avenue (replacing 5 service).
N Broadway Line
[That's why the IND put so few local stops in midtown Manhattan, to discourage people from transfering to the express.]
I think that decision contributed to the inbalance between the load on the speed 1,2,3 and the lumbering line along CPW. People will always head for the fastest train.
Despite the fact that it's antiquated and overcrowded, I find that the IRT gets me where I'm going faster than the IND lines. It seems to me that lines that try to predict where people will go and manipulate them end up being less efficient than lines that are designed to let people make their own choices.
"If the Second Ave. platform is put far enough away from the 4/5 at 125th and Lex, then people may stay on the Second Ave. train, even with its roundabout route downtown. But until a full-length Second Ave. line is built, there will be a lot of transfers, both for speed and because a lot of people will want an East Side train who work south of 57th Street."
A Second Avenue line just to 34th Street will be better than the current plan (via 63rd Street). In other words, the 63rd Street line will not do much to discourage passengers using the 4/5/6. Unless many of the passengers are coming from 125th Street and going to the westside.
N Broadway Line
The major crowding problems on the Lex are in Manhattan, not in the Bronx. Sending the Second Avenue line to Pelham would give Pelham riders a new route (in exchange for the old one) and a bit more breathing room.
If the line is oriented north-south at Lex/125th, all it could ever do is take over one of the Bronx IRT lines. If it's oriented east-west, it could eventually be extended westward to the Hudson when the desire is strong enough and the money is available. It could also take over the Pelham line by means of a short connector under the Harlem River. If the line is four-track (as it should be), the express could continue north into the Bronx while the local turns west across 125th.
The subway needs an east-west line north of 60th Street (unlike the Pelham line, which doesn't need wider cars), and 125th is the obvious place to put it. Let's at least leave the option open.
"The major crowding problems on the Lex are in Manhattan, not in the Bronx. Sending the Second Avenue line to Pelham would give Pelham riders a new route (in exchange for the old one) and a bit more breathing room."
Why don't you ask some #2 and #5 riders during the morning rush if they aren't crowded?
Having said that, I am not disagreeing with your support of an east-west option. It's a nice idea.
I hate the idea of replacing the IRT with the BMT. I rather see a new line created out of the second avenue line. Like 3rd Avenue or along the rail yard to Dyre avenue replacing the #5.
N broadway line
Dyre Avenue is of little utility.
The best way to send two lines from Second is a line along the Park Avenue Metro-North tracks and the Pelham Bay line.
[The best way to send two lines from Second is a line along the Park Avenue Metro-North tracks and the Pelham Bay line.]
Which brings up something I've wondered and yapped about frequently enough. Why not just offer express service along the three Metro North branches, down the outside Park Avenue tracks with a new stop at 86th, over at 63rd Street and down the 6th Avenue? MN standard and FRA. It would:
--Give complete coverage in underserved areas of the Bronx, fed with limited stop buses, and eliminate overcrowding on the Bronx lines
--Take much of the load off the Lex
--Allow MN trains to offer direct service to Lower Manhattan
--Open up slots in GCT which would allow the 63rd LIRR tunnel to turn onto the existing tracks and use the existing lower level, saving perhaps half the cost of construction and speeding completion
Something for everybody and all we're talking about doing is building a junction at 63rd and expanding the Metro North station at 86th, replacing the third rail on two tracks of the BMT, and changing the specs of some of the new cars. ?
[down the outside Park Avenue tracks with a new stop at 86th, over at 63rd Street and down the 6th Avenue? ]
...snip...
[--Allow MN trains to offer direct service to Lower Manhattan ]
But 6th Ave doesn't go to Lower Manhattan. Do you mean Broadway?
Arti
[But 6th Ave doesn't go to Lower Manhattan. Do you mean Broadway?]
Oops, thanks, guess I spaced!
Josh,
For the first time, I think you have a good idea. That's if they keep the fare at $1.50 below Westchester county.
I think the metro-north is a good idea if: 1) they have enough trains to operate the local stops. 2) they have enough money in their budget to construct local stations along the line.
The local stations could be similar to the #6 line. And they can add some stops in the bronx as well.
By the way, I heard something about the Metro North adding an additional track to white plains. Is this true? If it is, when are they going to build this third track?
Thanks guys for your help!
N Broadway Line
[Josh,
For the first time, I think you have a good idea. That's if they keep the fare at $1.50 below Westchester county.]
Well, I guess faint praise is better than no praise!
I can think of several fare structures, but it's hard to know what would work. It costs a lot more to operate trains on the commuter RR's because of the unions and to a lesser extent the FRA. Also, the commuter RR's have a screw-the-City fare structure -- travelling the same distance within the City is more expensive than travelling it outside the City.
The best bet might be to negotiate a trade -- commuter use of the Broadway line tracks for the extended subway services.
David,
A crosstown 125th Street line will be beautiful as well as a line going up 3rd Avenue. Even a line going to Dyre Avenue via the old boston railroad would be great. However, I disagree with replacing the #6 pelham line.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
David,
"The Second Avenue line can continue to the Bronx only by displacing an existing Bronx line, which would yield minimal gains. Orient the line westward and it can be later extended to a new corridor entirely."
What corridor would that be? Extended where? My idea would be to dead end it somewhere around Broadway (connecting the #1). Then, building a yard around Riverside Drive (really 12 Avenue - Riverside Drive is the bridge). They is already a bus depot over there.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
I posted this before, but here goes. The line would run west along 125th, with stops at Lex-Park (4/5/6/MNRR), Lenox (2/3), St. Nicholas (A/B/C/D), and Broadway (1/9). At the west end of 125th, it would turn north and stop near Fairway. It would then proceed along the HHP offramp and the parkway itself to Riverbank State Park. Provisions would be included for a northward extension, probably swinging back east first.
I think your ideas are the best on the board. You have done your homework on the area and I think you need to be commended. However, I think Riverbank Park (pollution site), is asking for to much. The #1 does just fine at that point.
N Bwy
I think your ideas are the best on the board. You have done your homework on the area and I think you need to be commended.
Well, thank you, although I haven't really done much homework -- I'm simply somewhat familiar with the area.
However, I think Riverbank Park (pollution site), is asking for to much. The #1 does just fine at that point.
I disagree. The 1 is a good 10-15 minutes away from Riverbank -- and, without a connection on 125th, the 1 is isolated from the rest of the system from 168th to 59th (except for the 2/3 turnoff north of 96th).
I admit, the Riverbank part was an afterthought, but if the line runs to Fairway anyway, it might as well be included as there are no more grade crossings.
An alternate terminus, to serve the tourists, is Grant's Tomb. (My original idea was actually to have the line run to the river on 125th, then loop down to Grant's Tomb and across to Columbia, where it would terminate with a transfer to the 1/9 at 116th. On second thought, I realized everyone would transfer at 125th anyway, despite the grade difference.)
Actually, as I have pointed out earlier, orienting the 125th St,. terminus east-west maker a transfer to the Lex easier, and allows for a direct connection to Metro-North, as well as permitting future extension along 125th St. Whom do we contact at MTA to push for this? RonInBayside --any ideas?
You should try to contact the following people, who represent important constituencies:
1)Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director, MTA Govt. and Community Relations 347 Madison Av,NY NY 10017
2) Manhattan Borough President- Contact Bob Kulikowski at that office: One Centre Street, 19th Floor South, NY NY 10007
3) Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver's Office: Contact Yvonne Morrow. I believe the address is 250 Broadway (or is it 270 Broadway? They moved recently) NY NY 10007.
Contact them in writing, and see how they respond. Post their responses here.
I have a couple of ideas for the Northern End of the Second Avenue Line!
First of all, the crosstown 125th Street idea is great. Since the area is a Federal economic empowerment zone, perhapas the MTA and the City could figure out a way to get the feds to cover more of that tab then they usually would. Plus it would something that would put the officials money where their mouths have been for decades. It would provide instant access to the Central Harlem area to many more potential shoppers for all of the retail that's been going in there. But I wouldn't stop at sending the 125th line across to St. Nicholas Avenue.
This is what I would do.
1) Have a western spur of the Second Avenue line turn west on 125th Street. Have it stop at at least Lenox and St. Nicholas and continue west with a stop at Broadway with provisions for an extension to Riverside State Park. I would have a track connection to the 8th Avenue and Concourse lines at St. Nicholas. This way people from the Western Part of Upper Manhattan and the Bronx have access to the Upper East Side.
2) Have a through line on 125th that heads East beyond Lex with a provsion to go to Queens. If the City is smart right here, they can link this to any possible bid for the Summer Olympics. The line would have a stop at Randall's/Ward's Island. That would also provide many East Siders and Harlemites with access to the recreational facilities out there. Also if the City does get the Olympics, all of a sudden a venue or two out there isn't hard to reach.
Staying on the Olympic theme I would continue that line East and have it stop near the Astoria Park Pool, a possible Olympic Venue and then have a transfer station with the Astoria Line. All of a sudden people on that line don't need to go to 60th Lex or Times Square to make their Uptown Connections. I would keep the line moving east toward LaGuardia Ariport, with at least two airport stations, Central Terminal Area and East Terminal Areas (US AIR/DELTA/NORTHWEST). But I wouldn't stop there, I would keep heading East and perhaps along the Westbound shoulder of the Grand Central Parkway and stop along the Northern perimeter of the Shea Stadium site. I would then tie the line into downtown Flushing, perhaps where the large park-and-ride area is on 39th Avenue.
I would also leave a provision to connect this line somehow to the Queens Blvd. line via the Jamacia Yard portals. This could allow for the development of the "Super Express" that the planners dreamed of in the 1970's. By taking a lot of the Queens Corridor load out at Kew Gardens and onto another line, it allows for increased express capacity west of Forest Hills. Also building along the GCP and perhaps at surface level, could be a lot cheaper than tunnelling through establishhed neighborhoods. Even if a tunnel was dug let's say from the Jamacia Yard to La Guardia, it's not going to disturb as many people as it would say going along a nearby street.
Now this line would go a long way without making any stops in densly populated areas. That's the whole point, it's designed to provide much faster access than other lines. Plus by connecting the Kew Gardens dot to the LGA dot, all of a sudden the two airports are connected at Sutphin Blvd. It may be a two seat ride, airtrain to the Subway, but it's better than what's there now.
Also the stop at Shea would be designed to serve a park-and-ride clientle. That would also take some of the burder off of the 7 to be perfect everyday and provide a lot of non-traditional hours commuters two-way express service in and out of the area. Plus keeping it on my Olympic theme, if any games venues are developed in the Shea area, all of a sudden they're connected to at least a couple of other venue sites and Midtown. With an East Side line and a West Side line hooking into this, Penn Station and Grand Central are also in this loop not to mention the Port Authority Terminal and the World Trade Center.
Now I would also have a connection to the 2nd Avenue line from this branch at 125th/Lex.
Finally,l I would leave bellmouths for a trans-Harlem River connection into the Bronx. Since this new line will require a ton of rolling stock, perhaps there could be yard in the Mott Haven area.
My eventally goal would be to have this line be the only one with full-time, four-track service into the Bronx. Perhaps it could go under Third Avenue or Boston Road and somehow have a cross-Bronx connectin of some sort to the other lines. This way the upper portions of the Pelham and White Plains road IRT lines could serve as local "feeders" to the new corridor.
I would also like to develop some sort of a connection between my line in the Bronx with the Amtrak service either along East Tremont Avenue in the Morris Park Area or near co-op City. One Amtrak stop for eight million people is not enough. Plus if someone from the Bronx or Upper Manhattan wants to go somewhere in New England, why would they want to go South first? You could build a huge park-and-ride type, Metropark style facility near Co-Op City, and all of a sudden make the electrification to Boston pay for itself.
That's all for now from San Francico
Evidently you lived in NYC.
I really don't have too many ideas about uptown. But i do have an idea for LGA./2nd. av.
First, make 2nd av. a 4 track line beginning at 125st. extend it south to 63rd. with a branch off to the 63rd tunnel. Continue it even further south until essex, where you can hook it up to the Broad st. line. Now, this line has access to South bklyn, Fulton St. line and Culver tracks.
Make a tunnel from 21st Queensbridge to LGA, with few stops in between. Then you can run a JFK Express from LGA Down 63rd, down 6th to W4, switch to 8th av, onto Fulton express and run it to Kennedy. A JFK exp to both airports!
[Make a tunnel from 21st Queensbridge to LGA, with few stops in between. Then you can run a JFK Express from LGA Down 63rd, down 6th to W4, switch to 8th av, onto Fulton express and run it to Kennedy. A JFK exp to both airports!]
Doesn't even need a tunnel, you can go over the existing N (which is supposed to get an elevated link to LGA) (it would require a new link somewhere, but that would be cheaper than a tunnel).
Now this is an interesting idea. Allowing a train to go from the 63rd St tunnel onto the Astoria elevated, then to the airport, would offer Queens Blvd riders access to the airport. Tie that into an underground section to get over the Astoria NIMBY and City Council objections, and maybe this thing is built. It doesn't offer East Elmhurst new service, though and I still think the front of LGA is a mess as it is, so an underground station there is better.
But I should make one thing clear: if the MTA hands out a construction contract for the LGA train and the construction crews get busy, I am not one to complain and get in the way, no matter which route is finally picked. I'll say, "thank you, keep working, would you like me to bring you some coffee?, keep working, this is a great idea, you missed that weld over there, don't mention it, that's good, keep working..." :-)
[Now this is an interesting idea. Allowing a train to go from the 63rd St tunnel onto the Astoria elevated, then to the airport, would offer Queens Blvd riders access to the airport. Tie that into an underground section to get over the Astoria NIMBY and City Council objections, and maybe this thing is built. It doesn't offer East Elmhurst new service, though and I still think the front of LGA is a mess as it is, so an underground station there is better.]
I'd also be concerned about capacity on the new A-6th Avenue line. It would be a more direct way for some Queens riders to get downtown and Brooklyn A riders to get uptown. Not sure whether that's a recipe for better service or hopeless overcrowding . . .
[But I should make one thing clear: if the MTA hands out a construction contract for the LGA train and the construction crews get busy, I am not one to complain and get in the way]
Amen to that!
But I should make one thing clear: if the MTA hands out a construction contract for the LGA train and the construction crews get busy, I am not one to complain and get in the way
Amen to that!
Ha ha ha ha! This is New York. Construction workers on public projects do not get "busy." They don't know the meaning of the word.
[This is New York. Construction workers on public projects do not get "busy." They don't know the meaning of the word.]
Do they anywhere?
Definition of progress on a public project: replace frayed tarps.
"Now this is an interesting idea. Allowing a train to go from the 63rd St tunnel onto the Astoria elevated"
I proposed this some time ago, and was laughed at. I said send the forgotten B over there (via 31st Street/Queens) instead of CPW where no one hardly uses it.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
1) Why spend the extra money. Just a simple transfer would do.
2) Sounds like a good idea. Would it be bridge or tunnel? If it's bridge, I don't think Triboro could handle the extra weight. And if it's Hells gate, to me any more subway regulation would be detrimental to the entire system.
N Broadway Line
[What does one thing have to do with the other? This line would feed into 2nd Avenue and have no impact on Queens.]
I'm talking about fiscal priorities. AFAIK, many more people would benefit form an increase in capacity on the Queens lines than would benefit from a crosstown line on 125th Street. Besides, a link from the Boradway line to the 59th Street station would do as much for commuters as the 125th St. link and benefit people who live below 125th Street as well at a fraction of the cost.
[As for Queens, what's the problem there? The locals have tons of empty space. Sure, they're a bit slower than the expresses (at least in theory) -- but the 125th Street crosstown buses are even slower.]
I should really leave that to commuters from Queens, but I have to confess I've never been wild about that sort of "let them eat locals" thinking. If people use the Queens express and it's overcrowded, fix the Queens express.
[You mean on the parallel side streets? Many of the side streets don't run through, due to hills, parks, etc. And, more importantly, the side streets aren't where the masses want to go.]
Seems to me that's a bit of a chicken and egg argument. If there's no service there, who can say whether people will use it? I see unblocked streets on both sides of 125th. So dedicate a couple of them to express service linking the subway lines. Tie them in to the stations, and make them an extension of the subway. If it doesn't work, build a subway.
[I live near 86th Street. Personally, I'd love to see a crosstown subway line there. But I don't think it would make much sense. Crosstown buses are slower on 125th than on 86th, in large part due to the fast run through Central Park. And of the three existing subway stations on 86th, two are local stops, while all trains stop at 125th (the Broadway center track bypasses 125th but it isn't currently used in revenue service anyway).]
That may be. OTOH, it would benefit many more people because of the density of the area. Those 86th Street stations are among the most heavily used in the City.
[Let's look at the first step: if the 2nd Avenue line is built at all, and it terminates at 125th and Lex, will it be oriented north-south or east-west? Orienting it north-south doesn't accomplish much except for allowing for easier transfers to the 4/5/6. (I don't think a B Division line could share trackage with the 4/5/6 under the Harlem River to connect to one of the existing Bronx lines; a new tunnel would have to be built anyway.) Orienting it east-west allows for a future extension across 125th. (Notice, also, that a 125th Street crosstown could be extended in the future to LGA over essentially the route of the M60.)]
I think that easy connection to the 4/5/6 is crucial, since that's where most people will be transferring.
An LGA connection would be natural, but that can be done whatever the orientation and won't be, anyway, barring a massive new subway project to give Queens riders more service (and I think that could be better done by extending, enhancing, or converting existing lines and ROWS's).
I love the 125th Street crosstown idea. It will allow passengers to transfer from the westside lines to the east lines (including the 4/5/6.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
"[The M60 is one of the major routes from LGA to Manhattan. It offers connections to all the subway lines at 125th, but it takes forever to get across town. A subway line would allow M60 passengers to jump ship (uh, bus) and would offer an alternative to the M60 and other (overcrowded) 125th Street crosstown buses to Harlem residents. If the subway line turned north at St. Nicholas, anyone going further west -- Columbia students, Upper West Siders bound for the 1/9 and M104 -- would be out in the cold.
West of Broadway, underneath Riverside Drive and the Henry Hudson Parkway, there is lots of room for development. Fairway is already there, but it's difficult to get to without a car. From Fairway, the subway line would run along the river side of the parkway (it's already there -- it would rise to street level and simply follow the SB offramp) and terminate at Riverbank State Park, another piece of Harlem that's a pain to get to. ]
David's plan is beautiful and receives all stars from me.
N Broadway Line
"I'm not convinced the line needs to run further north, but from RSB it could easily continue up to Columbia Presbyterian and either cross into New Jersey or merge into the A. But the current St. Nicholas line certainly doesn't need more service."
David,
I like your ideas a lot. Even extending it to NJ receives all stars. And your right about St. Nicholas. Those guys over there got it made BIG time. Anymore service over there, you might as well tell the rest of us to drop dead. But the 125th Street crosstown line sounds exciting and hope the mTA will look into it.
N Broadway
STEVE,
YES! A NEW INSIDE CONNECTION WITH THE MNRR COULD BE MADE! No longer will passengers have to subject themselves to the outside elements to get to the LEXs lines or the metro North. That's why I think this plan is so wonderful.
Another good black would be to run the other straight up third avenue. Connect to the #6 and than the 2 and 5 lines. This to me will be better than replacing the Pelham Bay branch.
I can't forget the old Boston railroad roe, it too can be used. However, for those of you who are #5 advocates, unfortunately, my proposal would be to replace it to dyre.
Remember, the #5 replace the old Boston railroad some years ago. Plus, you have to look at the configuation b/t the number 2 and 5 lines. One of the trains have to cross in front of it to get to Dyre or manhattan. This will be eliminated once the new 2nd avenue line is put in.
On top of that, for the first time, passengers living above 180th Street can have the option of choicing the #5 express over the #2 local. To me, this will be the best service.
N Broadway Line
Steve (DAVID), I like your ideas too, and hope it becomes a reality.
N Broadway Line
"Current proposals bring a train over to Lex, north-south parallel to existing Lex service."
This is a ignorant proposal like the 63rd Street which was built. 76/7/9th Street would have been a better place to put this line. It would have made a connection with the #6. Then, once it got to Roosevelt Avenue, it would have had a station right in the heart of the residence district. The current location is barred which forces people to use a bus to their residence. Stupid, isn't it? And the next stop would have been 36 or Broadway and 21st Street. This is a very populated area. The next stop would be the connection with the N 31st Street line. This would have give Astoria Residences two transportation alternatives while reducing over crowding on the N line. And the final connection could have been made either with the G/R or another express route which would have connected to the E/F later on.
A north and south station is also very stupid. And replacing the #6 is even more ignorant when central bronx doesn't have adequate transportation.
One wonders why the best proposals get sholved out the window while the worse proposals get build.
A 125th Street crosstown is the best idea. It will make tranfering a lot easier. And help reduce over crowding on all the lines.
N Broadway Line
The 63rd St Connecror project was limited by budget and other considerations to connecting the 63rd St line into Queens Blvd. There is a physical option to provide local train service as well, since the the R train can switch onto the 63rd St tracks, which would give access to anybody using stations on Broadway. While this is not currently planned, the MTA can do it without any further construction (other than chaging signs) if there is enough demand for it.
As for the Second Av subway engineering now under way, there are no plans to replace the #6 train, and 2nd Av service would provide for free exchanges to the #4,5,6 trains at 125 Street. What you were referring to wwas an idea batted around on Subtalk, not an MTA proposal. The MTA did consider shaving back #6 platforms in the Bronx years ago, but that was to allow both Second Av IND and #6 IRT trains to use the same platforms (mechanical extenders would let people board the narrower IRT cars).
I think some of your objections were based on some confusion over what the MTA actually proposed and did, and what was just "Subtalk." I hope this helps clear things up for you.
63rd Street was pretty much "well we already spent all this money" now let's convince the public, that THEIR money was well spent! While reducing the R and cutting G, the capacity for V could have been provided. But of course wouldn't it sound fishy if G carries on?
Arti
"63rd Street was pretty much "well we already spent all this money" now let's convince the public, that THEIR money was well spent! While reducing the R and cutting G, the capacity for V could have been provided. But of course wouldn't it sound fishy if G carries on? "
Once constructed, the connector service can be carried out in a number of ways not requiring further construction. As you've done in the past, you're allowing your bias to confuse the issues.
I understand that you don't like the G cutback, but that is schedule and rolling-stock dependent. Once the MTA acquires additional rolling stock, they can use it to increase V or R service, increasing the number of trains per hour to 30 or more at Queens Plaza (which would be a decision requiring the G to be cut back), or they could decide to keep V service at lower levels and allow the G to continue operating.
That's a decision which can go either way with the connector.
[Once constructed, the connector service can be carried out in a number of ways not requiring further construction. As you've done in the past, you're allowing your bias to confuse the issues. ]
But are those options really useful or called for? If you look at their proposed TPH, V via 60th could have been carried out without any construction at all!
[I understand that you don't like the G cutback, but that is schedule and rolling-stock dependent. Once the MTA acquires additional rolling stock, they can use it to increase V or R service, increasing the number of trains per hour to 30 or more at Queens Plaza (which would be a decision requiring the G to be cut back), or they could decide to keep V service at lower levels and allow the G to continue operating.]
I have no problem with G cut back, as I've stated previously. Also there's no need for 30TPH on QB local, current rush hour load factors are below 100%. The only way to justify 63rd street connector would be another (1 or 2 ) express tracks on QB.
Arti
"But are those options really useful or called for? If you look at their proposed TPH, V via 60th could have been carried out without any construction at all! "
Again, you're deliberately ignoring rolling stock issues, which are often at the center of this.
I would like MTA to replace and increase rolling stock faster; ultimately it will happen. When it does, the TPH numbers will go up.
[Again, you're deliberately ignoring rolling stock issues, which are often at the center of this.
I would like MTA to replace and increase rolling stock faster; ultimately it will happen. When it does, the TPH numbers will go up. ]
No I'm not, later in that post I stated that there's no need for 30 TPH from QB to Manhattan, backed by the loading figures.
Arti
"No I'm not, later in that post I stated that there's no need for 30 TPH from QB to Manhattan, backed by the loading figures"
Actually, loading figures point to an urgent need toi increase TPH from Queeens Blvd. to Manhattan. What MTA's plan will actually accomplish and whether it needs adjustment (express vs. local etc.) is a matter of experience (which will begin in August).
Go back and look at all the data again - not just the local trains - and then repost here.
[Go back and look at all the data again - not just the local trains - and then repost here. ]
Expresses are overloaded locals under, increasing local service wouldn't change the minds of the "geese." If people would behave "rationally" they would use locals, especially we're talking few minutes here.
What really is needed is more express capacity.
Arti
"What really is needed is more express capacity."
Correct. But given real-world limitations (including "geese," budgets, politics, and other things we have to live with in this world) the new Connector tunnel can deliver some of that capacity by allowing the MTA to shift service from one line to another. That means some people will complain, and ultimately a compromise will be reached that will provide more service to 900,000+ QB customers without excessively shafting other groups of riders.
"Go back and look at all the data again - not just the local trains - and then repost here."
Where can I find the data concerning this subject?
Thanks for reply.
N Bwy
[I understand that you don't like the G cutback, but that is schedule and rolling-stock dependent.]
That brings up a long-standing question of mine: while the current shortage of rolling stock was apparently imposed on the MTA by politicians some years back, why doesn't the MTA mothball the cars it takes out of service?
(Also, it seems to me that that old weld extensions on the redbirds proposal would be a good temporary solution to the G problem.)
"(mechanical extenders would let people board the narrower IRT cars)."
I don't really know about mechanical extenders. I brought some similar about using extenders and was shouted down. They told me it will present additonal matinence cost.
N Bwy
"I don't really know about mechanical extenders. I brought some similar about using extenders and was shouted down. They told me it will present additonal matinence cost."
In which forum were you shouted down. The extenders are already in use (Times Square Shuttle).
Anyway, it was an old proposal at MTA and not currently on the table.
No. I thought you ment the Train Ron? Ok. And, Doesn't delays result in using those extenders? Thanks for you reply.
N Broadway Line
Some delays may occur. The train must be positioned correctly with the doors opening onto the platform extenders, and then the extenders must retract before the train departs.
That's what I thought (Delays).
Wasn't the MTA looking into replacing the #5 some time ago via the old boston railroad row? I think that would be a much better replacement, since, the platforms was converted sometime ago for IRT service to Dyre Avenue.
N Bwy
I don't know anything about that. If you're curious, write to Douglas Sussman, MTA Deputy Director of Govt. and Community Relations, 347 Madison Av NY NY 10017, and ask.
THanks.
N Bwy
[That's what I thought (Delays).]
That's using old technology! The delays could be eliminated easily enough, though there would still be some maintenance requirements . . .
>>The 63rd St Connecror project was limited by budget and other considerations to connecting the 63rd St line into Queens Blvd. There is a physical option to provide local train service as well, since the the R train can switch onto the 63rd St tracks, which would give access to anybody using stations on Broadway. While this is not currently planned, the MTA can do it without any further construction (other than chaging signs) if there is enough demand for it.<<
True. Perhaps, they'll make a local service. A good idea would be to take the extra cars coming from R-143 delivery, and running a local from Whitehall to 71st continental (naming it W. Running it Rush hours ) via the 63rd connector. this way, people between 36th st and Roosevelt can also use the connector. However, the service is likely to get a limited usage for 2 reasons:
1. Nobody east of Roosevelt is going to want to use this service (local factor)
2. essentially the R train.
3. It makes more sense to put these cars on the V line. (Maybe doing such would result in the return of the Culver Express. I'm not gonna hold my breath though.)
Good points.
From the East Side Alternatives MIS/DEIS:
The modeling studies showed that building a direct connection between an East Side subway extension and the Bronx would benefit a limited number of passengers, and a subway terminal station adjacent to the Lexington Avenue station at 125th Street would be most desirable from a cost-benefit standpoint.
The system should be built to permit future connections to the Bronx and/or to a new subway south of 63rd Street, should either prove desirable in the future. To this end, the proposed subway would retain the potential for continuing to the north or connecting to the No. 6 Pelham line, from its 129th Street terminus, north of the 125th Street station. Similarly, the potential for continuing the subway line south of 63rd Street would be provided.
Their summary brochure on the topic is quite explicit about potential connection to #6.
I believe they will shave the Pelham platforms and run the 6 on the 2nd Ave. from opening day. They aren't talking operational plans, as their hands are full as it is. One battle at a time. Get it built, then worry about operational details in 5 or 10 years or whenever.
It tends to be a rule of ALL transit agencies: construct now, talk operational plans later. Would 63rd be opening this summer if they had talked from the beginning about cutting back the G, altering the E/F connection with the Lex, etc.?
See the last link "MESA Information Brochure" at (careful, a hefty 4.2mb):
www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/mesa/index.html
(I believe they will shave the Pelham platforms and run the 6 on the 2nd Ave. from opening day. They aren't talking operational plans, as their hands are full as it is.)
That's certainly the right thing to do. But wouldn't they have to build a turnaround facility for the Lex Local (I guess most people don't know that they are already building LIRR to GCT, come to think of it).
[But wouldn't they have to build a turnaround facility for the Lex Local]
I imagine it would a fairly strange one too, since the uptown and downtown trains are on different levels . . .
They could build the crossover before the station, when the tracks are on the same level, above exp tracks.
Arti
[They could build the crossover before the station, when the tracks are on the same level, above exp tracks.]
But then how would people know which level to go to board?
Signs, perhaps! Or experience.
Arti
Who says they have to turn the Lex locals at 125 st.? No doubt one Bronx service would become a local...SORRY for the commuters involved but they'd get used to it like the Broadway-7th Ave. change in IIRC 59. Then we get back to why we've been whining about building 2nd Ave, you've now added capacity for more trains on one less service.
"That's certainly the right thing to do. But wouldn't they have to build a turnaround facility for the Lex Local (I guess most people don't know that they are already building LIRR to GCT, come to think of it)."
The final EIS for the LIRR to GCT proposal was just issued. I got it by Fedex today.
In the best of all possible worlds you would want to build two new tracks under the Harlem River (as was planned in 1968-74) and make connections to other lines in the Bronx itself. There are many different alternatives available for such connections (to the 4, D, 2, 5, and 6).
This doesn't preclude another branch under the Harlem River Drive and west under 135th Street to the IND main line. This would allow some trains from 207th Street/Inwood to travel to the East Side, a trip now possible only by bus.
Ideally, there would be a four-track Second Ave. subway, with the local turning west on 125th and continuing over to St. Nicholas Ave. (with stops at Lexington and Lennox) to connect with the A/B/C/D lines. That would serve the 125th Street corridor, which is busier than 135th Street is.
The express would continue north from 125th and via a new tunnel to the Bronx, where it could either take over the Pelham line (terminating the 6 at Third Ave and 138th St. to allow a turnaround track) or run it straight up the middle of the borough alongside the Metro North tracks (with FRA mandated seperations) where it could serve as an express for people stuck with the long trip south through the Bronx on the No. 2 or the B and D trains.
Either option would require a minimum of new tunneling in the Bronx -- the Pelham only to a around 138th and Willis, while the Metro North would need about 3/4 of a mile more underground work, but would have the advantage of actually giving Bronx riders a new line -- actaully a semi-replacement for the old Third Ave. el -- rather than subbing one line for another.
Actually the MTA did propose a Third Ave. el replacement along the Metro-North (then Penn Central) tracks in 1968. I don't think they offered any engineering details, however. To widen the route to six tracks would have required the excavation and replacement of the access roads along Park Avenue - there are many buildings with entrances facing the tracks. It probably would be, if done, a more complicated job than it would first appear.
A two track Second Avenue subway - which seems the best we can hope for - would still allow for two diverging routes at the northern end: one to the Bronx, and one along 125th or 135th to connect with the A line.
Man have you given me an education. I never even considered the idea of an Inwood connection to 2nd Ave. You're right, a connection from Inwood to the east side could be used quite well, likewise the 125 st X-town, the street it should be on.
One branch to Inwood, maybe even extended to Marble Hill [I've admitted to being a dreamer] and the other branch up Pelham which seems to be the simplest Bronx connection...or instead up Park Ave.to replace what had been 2nd/3rd ave. service years earlier.
Oh well, one can dream.
If I may say so, I thought of the Inwood connection while J. Lee suggested putting it under 125th instead of 135th.
Maybe this isn't so new after all. Was something like this in the IND second system plan, or even earlier than that?
Even a simple 125th St. extension ending at Broadway, with transfers to all the N-S lines, would be a vast improvement. Right now, it's impossible to get from Riverdale, Inwood, Wash Hts., etc. to the east side without going down to 42 St. or 59 St., and making multiple transfers.
This plan sounds really good. The question is that isn't it too late to change the plans as the EIS is already done for the current alignment. Of course if they run out of money without finishing it to 125th Street, the next EIS 30 years from now could consider it :-)
Arti
My guess is that a 125th St. line would never show enough demand to warrant a $1b/mile subway line with the current economics. A challenge for all projects that go along the perimeter of the major destinations. Proposals that go directly to major destinations (Midtown, LGA) will show more passengers and get all the funding for some time to come.
But at the same time, buses aren't enough. Crosstown traffic is terrible, as Jimi told us. Perhaps we should be looking at surface light rail lines on 125th and other crosstown streets. Advocates of lines on 42nd and 8th have been at it a while. And other places where the bus congestion is awful, like Jamaica, Flushing, Fordham, downtown Brooklyn.
Subway is best, but the big building days are gone.
"My guess is that a 125th St. line would never show enough demand to warrant a $1b/mile subway line with the current economics. A challenge for all projects that go along the perimeter of the major destinations. Proposals that go directly to major destinations (Midtown, LGA) will show more passengers and get all the funding for some time to come."
Even in New York, subways don't cost $1 billion per mile. There are tremendous obstacles to overcome to build any line, but one starts with realistic numbers.
Unfortunately, $1b/mile is realistic.
63rd connector was a fraction of a mile, and some $.6b or so. 2nd Ave from 63rd to 125th, 3 miles, is projected at $3.5b. A 125th crosstown would go almost two miles and cross 5 rail lines. And, like 63rd connector, would require those existing lines to continue operating 24-7. I would be surprised if a 125th line could be done for under $2b.
Not to say something shouldn't be done. The rule of thumb on surface rail is 1/10th the cost. It could be done faster and cheaper and provide most of the benefits. London, Paris and Tokyo all have surface lines, and have retained world-class status. NY could use light rail in these second tier situtations, and keep its reputation intact as well.
"Unfortunately, $1b/mile is realistic.
63rd connector was a fraction of a mile, and some $.6b or so"
Not a good example. The 63rd St Connector project involved rebuilding much of the project from the 1960's, in part because no crossovers had been placed. It also involved substantially rebuilding the main line under Northern Boulevard to a 6-track configuration. A generous view of the total cost would $645 million/3miles or about $210 million per mile; I peg it at about $300 million per mile. The total project cost as completed now is actually 898 million + 645 million = $1.55 billion including all the work leading up to the line's opening for business in 1989. Also, since "start-up" costs are often the same whether you build a tenth of a mile or ten miles, a short segment like the 63rd St Connector does not accurately reflect the cost of a longer line, where economies of scale can be achieved.
"2nd Ave from 63rd to 125th, 3 miles, is projected at $3.5b"
I believe that estimate assumes a whole new tunnel. Document CM-1188 from the MTA, the preliminary engineering document, specifies that existing tunnel segments from the 1970's will be used. I'm wondering if that is the MTA's response to the ballooning estimates. Whether or not it is, refurbishing the old tunnel (it has been maintained over the years) should slice off quite a bit of cost. Now, I will concede that this "head start" will not help the TA much below 63rd St (though there is a little there too). But I think the $1 billion/mile estimate is intended to be a pessimistic amount, which will make MTA look good if it finishes it for less.
"A 125th crosstown would go almost two miles and cross 5 rail lines."
That line exists on Subtalk only - it is not, as far as I know, being discussed seriously in any govt. body, nor at the MTA, and it isn't going to happen(I'm not saying it is a bad idea), so I am going to leave that out of this discussion. An extension to the Bronx using the Pelham tracks is somewhere on the MTA Operations and Planning back burner.
"Not to say something shouldn't be done. The rule of thumb on surface rail is 1/10th the cost. It could be done faster and cheaper and provide most of the benefits. London, Paris and Tokyo all have surface lines, and have retained world-class status. NY could use light rail in these second tier situtations, and keep its reputation intact as well."
Trouble is, Manhattan's streets and traffic aren't amenable to surface rail, and it doesn't integrate as well with the subway. Maybe out in the boroughs that would work. I'm not anti-surface rail, so if a serious proposal came up I'd look at it with interest.
True, the connector was especially complicated, at $645m for 1500 feet, or $2.25b/mile. One can easily cut the number in half and then some. There were complications in Queens, but there are complications in Manhattan as well. Especially if connections with each of the N-S lines are made.
The $3.5b estimate for "Stubway" is from the DEIS, which assumed using the old tunnels as near as I can tell. We'll see what the Final EIS says. The EIS is the bible. It is the "contract" with the community and the feds, who will hopefully spring for a chunk of this. If they don't build it according to that plan, they can be sued and the project stopped. See "Executive Summary" at:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/mesa/index.html
Looking at the map again, I should have put Stubway at a total of 3.5 miles. So this estimate is right in the $1b/mile ballpark. It is also important to include signals, rolling stock, etc., and to use current dollars. In this case, '97 dollars, so it is a little low already. The FEIS will have better numbers.
Don't get me wrong. I am an optimist. I think that all the "great" projects out there will be under construction within a few years, including:
* LIRR to GCT (ESA);
* 2nd Ave phase I (MESA);
* #7/MNR/LIRR to Javits/Jets/Olympic Stadium/"Midtown West";
* LGA extension;
* 2nd pair of Hudson River Tunnels, including continued PSNY link to GCT (ARC); likely with a big assist from the PA.
As there isn't a dime for construction of any of these projects right now, optimism may be an understatement. But the NY Times is hinting the new census will peg NYC at 8 million, an all-time high. I believe getting these projects done will soon be seen as essential for the continued health of a booming, and more-than-ever nationally important economy. Transit and transportation gridlock otherwise. In short, a scenario which will break the funding impasse.
Optimism that the "great" projects will go, but realism that funding for the "good" ones, e.g. a 125th line, won't. But rail transit capacities and speeds are important, and therefore creativity is necessary. That is why I suggest light rail, which costs about 1/10th what heavy rail does.
I disagree that Manhattan streets are poorly designed for LRT. In fact, they are perfect. Wide and straight as an arrow. You couldn't ask for better. The same characteristics that make fast four track subway lines possible as well. And with Metrocard, the connections are seamless, nearly as "platform-to-platform" as a subway line beneath.
The one sacrifice, to keep LRT speeds high in their own ROW, is the loss of a travel (or parking) lane. Auto capacity is reduced. But people carrying capacity is increased. Is it the Department of Transportation? Or the Department of Automobiles (DOA)? With cars being the number one cause of death for children in NYC, it is time to quit making the auto #1. Slow 'em down. Make transit and pedestrians the priority. Half of NYers don't even HAVE a car.
It is often said "not in my lifetime" on this site. I want to see more than a half-dozen "great" projects built in mine. Thinking outside the box, as other great cities have done with great success, is timely.
Yes, the DEIS does project that cost. If it really comes out that way in the EIS, then I stand corrected. Thank you.
However, you're still dead wrong on the 63rd St Connector. $645 billion was spent for three miles of new or re-done work, not 1500 feet. At most the cost was $300 million per mile. When you buy a $20,000 car, the cost includes the engine and axles and chassis, not just the fenders and body (eg the section of tunnel penciled into the map). That brings the connector to at most $300 million per mile, probably the most expensive project completed to date.
For additional information, and to understand the additional work involved beyond the 1500 foot tunnel constructed east of 21rst St station, check out http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/63rdconn.jpg.
We'll just have to disagree on 63rd. I agree that you have to account for the other work, and it cuts the linear foot ratio by more than half. But I don't think you can cut it to 1/7th.
Anyway, the point is subway construction in a mature economy is VERY expensive, and the main reason we haven't seen much of it in 50 years -- in NY or elsewhere. There was one line in LA, but that went poorly largely because they had a low estimate and went 2 1/2 times over budget. The line is actually well used. Atlanta and BART came along well (latter is about to go to San Jose now), but they are mostly above ground. Philadelphia is now looking at Roosevelt Blvd., but probably in an open trench with a highway. Boston should have connected North and South station commuter lines during the Big Dig, but didn't. D.C. just finished their 103 mile system with much of it below grade, but only with a $200m/yr standing appropriation from Congress. [Imagine what we could do with that!] Even Japan has gone mostly above grade with their newer systems. The subway action is in developing countries, like China, where expenses are low.
In the meantime, there has been a "Railvolution" in modern light rail construction across the country. Dozens of new lines since San Diego and Portland kicked things off two decades back. Baltimore switched their emphasis from HRT to LRT. Minneapolis, Seattle, Houston and Phoenix are the current light rail wannabees. Other than soon to open San Juan, the U.S. hasn't seen a new subway system started in decades.
"Anyway, the point is subway construction in a mature economy is VERY expensive, and the main reason we haven't seen much of it in 50 years -- in NY or elsewhere. There was one line in LA, but that went poorly largely because they had a low estimate and went 2 1/2 times over budget. The line is actually well used."
I agree with that sentiment. LA had the additional problem that Tutor-Saliba Corp.'s team was nearly criminally incompetent at building the Metro Red Line (the company is also, I believe, lead contractor on BART's airport extension. I don't know what kind of reputation they have there. Obviously, with a large co, you can have good management on one project and not so good on another).
I have read articles claiming that LA MTA ridership is down in recent years. I have ridden the Red Line and like it. I hop on an express bus west on Wilshire Blvd to complete my trip.
"Philadelphia is now looking at Roosevelt Blvd., but probably in an open trench with a highway."
They need more lines badly. I hope this doesn't remain a "paper subway."
Washington's system is a marvel to behold. And they've started work on a new Red Line station and are moving forward with an extension, with 2 more stops, on the Blue Line. The Green Line has seen tremendous opening ridership. A job well done.
New Jersey's experience with light rail seems to be very good. According to NJARP, a number of projects are on the boards or being built. I'm skeptical of light rail in Manhattan, but I could be convinced otherwise, I suppose.
[I don't know what kind of reputation they have there. Obviously, with a large co, you can have good management on one project and not so good on another). ]
Let's give them the benifit of doubt again and again and .... Ron, smell the coffee!
Arti
"Let's give them the benifit of doubt again and again and .... Ron, smell the coffee! "
I am smelling it. If you know for a fact that Tutor-Saliba is screwing up on BART's airport line, say so. (MTA doesn't use them for anything, as far as I know, and I'm not endorsing them). Otherwise, posts like the one above sound a bit impulsive (at least not supported by the facts).
To cite another example, Lockheed-Martin is a huge conglomerate which is into a lot of things. Some things they do very well, and have a well-earned good reputation. Others (for example, their management of certain government labs), they have not done as well in. When you have tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of employees in different enterprises, that sometimes happens. Not condonable, but it happens.
[I agree with that sentiment. LA had the additional problem that Tutor-Saliba Corp.'s team was nearly criminally incompetent at building the Metro Red Line (the company is also, I believe, lead contractor on BART's airport extension. I don't know what kind of reputation they have there. Obviously, with a large co, you can have good management on one project and not so good on another).]
Nevertheless, it seems that they built it for $250 million a mile. That would make a full length, four track Second Avenue something like $2.5 billion, an amount that could be financed by raising the fare alone.
I can't help but thinking that something is really, really rotten here. It's well and good to say that the MTA is overestimating the cost, but why in the world should an agency be allowed to quote an uncrealistic cost? If costs were kept to reasonable levels and we devoted as much to transit as other regions on a reasonably non-political basis, we could transform the City into a much more attractive place to do business.
Oops, sorry, meant $5 billion for a four track line.
"I can't help but thinking that something is really, really rotten here. It's well and good to say that the MTA is overestimating the cost, but why in the world should an agency be allowed to quote an uncrealistic cost? If costs were kept to reasonable levels and we devoted as much to transit as other regions on a reasonably non-political basis, we could transform the City into a much more attractive place to do business."
I wish I knew more about the political landscape. I know that Unions are very strong in NY (and with corrupt leadership very often); lots of people have their hands out for this or that, threatening to block a project unless they get it; environmental standards are higher today than they were 20 years ago; inflation (compare current dollars to 1970 or 1980 dollars); the MTA itself has alot of people within the bureaucracy earning money and pushing paper (but some of that represents what is necessary to deal with the BS demanded by legislators whose own accountability is questionable).
We live in an imperfect world, don't we? :0(
[I wish I knew more about the political landscape. I know that Unions are very strong in NY (and with corrupt leadership very often); lots of people have their hands out for this or that, threatening to block a project unless they get it; environmental standards are higher today than they were 20 years ago; inflation (compare current dollars to 1970 or 1980 dollars); the MTA itself has alot of people within the bureaucracy earning money and pushing paper (but some of that represents what is necessary to deal with the BS demanded by legislators whose own accountability is questionable).
We live in an imperfect world, don't we? :0(]
I could except some of it, but the LA comparison hurts! Even if we paid twice as much as they did for the second avenue subway -- say, $500 million a mile -- we could still manage it.
"Nevertheless, it seems that they built it for $250 million a mile. That would make a full length, four track Second Avenue something like $2.5 billion, an amount that could be financed by raising the fare alone."
And disencourage people who already have a hard time paying for mass transit since the last increase to seek other alternatives? Alright! Than I encourage people to seek cheaper alternatives, like walking and bicycle riding.
N Broadway Local
I said: "Nevertheless, it seems that they built it for $250 million a mile. That would make a full length, four track Second Avenue something like $2.5 billion, an amount that could be financed by raising the fare alone."
N Local said: And disencourage people who already have a hard time paying for mass transit since the last increase to seek other alternatives? Alright! Than I encourage people to seek cheaper alternatives, like walking and bicycle riding.
And I say, I'm not insensitive to the needs of the working poor. But keep in mind that mass transit is already heavily subsidized, and a tremendous bargain compared to the cost of owning a car. And ultimately, if we want something, we will have to pay for it. Does it really matter whether the fare increase is in the form of a higher entrance price or a tax on peanuts? The only difference between the former and the latter is that it's a bit more honest.
Anyway, if you really want to get on your high horse, it seems to me that you might want to compare the subsidies given received by LIRR riders with the subsidies received by subway riders. Or the salary of an LIRR conductor with the salary of a subway conductor. There's a massive transfer of wealth going on here, and it ain't going in the subway rider's direction!
[I disagree that Manhattan streets are poorly designed for LRT. In fact, they are perfect. Wide and straight as an arrow. You couldn't ask for better. The same characteristics that make fast four track subway lines possible as well.]
Too much traffic in crowded areas. In many cases the buses don't move faster than a walk, bus lanes or not, and I've never seen any evidence that light rail would move either -- if anything, it would be more likely to get jammed up, which is one of the reasons the City removed it in the first place.
But I'm a big fan of subway alternatives in areas where traffic isn't too heavy for dedicated streets. I'm not sure that light rail fits the bill, though -- it's an old, excessively expensive technology, and I think that its main benefits can be achieved in a more cost-effective way.
You have the old trolly in your mind's eye, not modern light rail. It is being built in almost every American city now because it is a medium speed, medium capacity rail system that costs 1/10th what subways cost. It is the modern transit mode of choice in much of Europe as well. Even large cities such as London and Paris use it to good effect.
Most US cities have their light rail lines in dedicated lanes -- no autos or buses allowed. The trains go faster than the cars on the same street. Because a lane of traffic is lost for that dedicated corridor, there will be less auto capacity, but I don't think more cars are the solution, nationally, and especially NYC. Manhattan already has 1,000,000 cars entering it every day. The other borroughs are also choked. The number needs to be reduced. Getting hit by cars is the #1 cause of death for children in NYC.
I realize saying all this on Subtalk is herasy. But if folks want to actually build and not just dream, the cost of subways rules it out, except for just a few specific projects.
NYC needs to be open to alternatives, or it will just more and more buses. Articulateds will be the only new higher capacity technology to get excited about.
[Getting hit by cars is the #1 cause of death for children in NYC. ]
I'll bet that Manhattan LRT would top that!
Arti
LRT safety record is excellent. New start cities hear this from the anti-rail folks all the time. After it is up and running, this issue disappears.
I would agree. There are always stupid drivers and stupid pedestrians, but in general, it is not a problem unless streets are too narrow (which is why Boston Green Line trains no longer terminate in Forest Hills).
"It is the modern transit mode of choice in much of Europe as well. Even large cities such as London and Paris use it to good effect."
I assume that, by London, you mean the Docklands Light Railway.
Certainly, the NY-NJ area uses that technology (NJ Transit light rail, AirTrain).
As for subways, I agree that it is best to consider and fund specific projects. The use of abandoned RR right of ways can help a great deal; note London's use of what one resident called "decrepit ground" to complete the Jubilee Line extension. The Queens bypass idea could follow the same strategy. Putting the subway in a ditch (a "prettified" ditch, like Boston's Orange Line) helps too.
Actually the Croydon network in south London. Page: www.tramlink.net/
As another website put it: "London Transport has departed form the 'bus, tube line or nothing' philosophy that summed up LT's policy for the last 50 years."
Thank you. Yes, South London (south of the Thames) has little in the way of subway service.
Dallas solved that prolbem downtown with their light rail system by commandering an alley on the east side of the main strip and running their trolleys through there. A common sense solution (for cities that have alleys), which adds rail service without removing vehicular traffic lanes.
The only concern is you have to pay attention coming up on an alley with the light rail line, because the tight space between the buildings gives drivers and pedestrians no visual angle to see if a light rail car is coming, so you have to trust the signal lights (none of which have failed yet, but they are only five years old).
What is the advantage to a light rail line over frequent articulated bus service on a dedicated ROW? (The disadvantages are cost and flexibility.)
LRT is faster, has much higher capacity, and is cheaper to operate.
So far, bus corridors haven't worked well, e.g. the double bus lanes on Madison. Cars/cabs get into them easily. Though the Europeans are working on new LRT-like buses that have promise.
Think of transit options as a continum. On one end, the expensive to build but inexpensive to operate, high speed and high capacity heavy rail. Perfect for long hauls in fixed high demand corridors. At the other, the inexpensive to purchase, but expensive to operate, low speed and low capacity bus. Perfect for short hauls in a variety of lower demand corridors.
LRT is the option in between. It should be looked at in NYC for high demand intra-burrough corridors.
LRT is the option in between. It should be looked at in NYC for high demand intra-burrough corridors.
It would work out better in the outer boroughs. Naturally there should be convenient, enclosed transfers to subways. This concept would take some getting used to, but Jersey residents are doing well with it.
Poor comparison. You're comparing light rail on track separated from the road to buses running on current-day (useless) bus lanes.
Josh Hill and I recently discussed the alternative option of dual bus lanes physically separate from the main roadway.
Basically, take your light rail, but instead of track place asphalt and instead of trains place articulated buses.
Speed is the same.
Capacity is the same as long as enough buses are run.
Capital expenses are much lower for buses. Operating expenses may be higher, since more buses than trains would operate to provide equal capacity -- but that might be offset by reduced maintenance costs.
The big plus for buses is flexibility. If something's wrong with the tracks, the LRT vehicle can't go anywhere. If something's wrong with the dedicated bus roadway, the bus can divert onto the main street or onto a parallel street. It would encounter heavy traffic but at least it could get through.
Also, existing bus routes could easily get separated bus roadways over the most congested portions of the routes while still running on the street for the rest. For instance, the street in NYC that most desparately needs some such solution is 5th Avenue from about 60th Street to about 42nd Street. Six different local bus routes (M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, Q32) and lots of express routes run along this stretch of 5th. An LRT solution would entail converting one or more entire routes to LRT, at great expense (and leaving the other routes on the now even more congested street), or running LRT service for only a mile, forcing through riders to transfer from bus to LRT to bus. OTOH, if a separated bus roadway is built for that mile, all buses can use it for that mile while running on standard streets elsewhere.
What am I missing? Given that everything else can be done similarly, how is it preferable to run vehicles (at street speeds) on tracks rather than on asphalt? It appears to me the latter is preferable in just about all ways.
[Capital expenses are much lower for buses. ]
Not in a long run, rail vechile life span in few times longer.
Arti
Even for a rail vehicle that runs (essentially) on public streets and stops every few blocks?
And don't forget the cost of the tracks themselves.
[For instance, the street in NYC that most desparately needs some such solution is 5th Avenue from about 60th Street to about 42nd Street.]
I know I'm changing the topic here, but I was thinking about that the other day and it occurred to me that it might be possible to move some of the 5th Avenue buses onto a reverse travel lane on Madison Avenue, where the bus lane works so well.
The lights on the one-way avenues are timed progressively. Traffic coming the wrong way will hit lots of red lights.
Now, a local bus stops every two or three blocks anyway; someone more familiar with the precise timings of the lights and the bus dwell times could determine if a local bus could make decent time -- perhaps even better time than with "proper" timing -- with such a setup. But limited and express buses would suffer immensely (although anything's better than that mile of 5th Avenue today).
Besides, if two lanes of Madison Avenue are dedicated to northbound buses, and two lanes of Madison Avenue are dedicated to southbound buses, that leaves for everyone else...a parking lane. (Madison is five lanes wide, including the bus lanes and the parking lane.) Or are you suggesting that the same double bus lane run SB in the morning and NB in the afternoon?
[The lights on the one-way avenues are timed progressively. Traffic coming the wrong way will hit lots of red lights.]
They could retime the lights -- after all, the avenue isn't very heavily travelled. And put the bus stops in front of the lights to minimize their effect (something that should be done everywhere).
[Besides, if two lanes of Madison Avenue are dedicated to northbound buses, and two lanes of Madison Avenue are dedicated to southbound buses, that leaves for everyone else...a parking lane. (Madison is five lanes wide, including the bus lanes and the parking lane.) Or are you suggesting that the same double bus lane run SB in the morning and NB in the afternoon?]
Hadn't thought of that, but a modification of that might do the trick. You couldn't use the existing double lane for reverse travel because the doors would be out in the street. But you could make it inactive when traffic was heading the other way.
Oops -- I wrote most of a response to this on Monday, but my browser proceeded to wipe out everything I wrote without warning, and I forgot to come back later to rewrite it. Here goes.
They could retime the lights -- after all, the avenue isn't very heavily travelled.
I beg to differ. The avenues are the most reliable north-south routes in Manhattan precisely because the lights are timed for one-way traffic at the speed limit. (The timing has the side effect of self-enforcing the speed limit, at least approximately.) If the lights on Madison were retimed, traffic would flood 3rd and 6th.
And put the bus stops in front of the lights to minimize their effect (something that should be done everywhere).
Neither placement is perfect. The disadvantage to far-side stops is that people are delayed by a red light when they're getting off across the street; the disadvantage to near-side stops is that stopped traffic blocks the bus stop and turns right from the left of the stopped bus.
When the M17 became the M79, the westbound stop at Broadway was moved from the near side to the far side. Now, I transferred there to the NB M104. Before the change, I got off the bus and walked around the corner. After the change, the bus invariably stopped for a red light at Broadway; when the light turned green it slowly proceeded across Broadway, dumping its passengers just in time for them to miss the light back across Broadway. After a few months of putting up with this nonsense I discovered that getting off at Amsterdam -- near-side! -- and walking (not running) to Broadway was always faster than staying on the bus and often got me onto an earlier M104. Yes, the change made it a bit easier for people to get to the SB M104, but it even lost them some time (since they'd be able to cross 79th while the bus was still waiting for the light at Broadway).
Not that this is relevant on Madison, where the staggered stops take up the full block. (They couldn't be staggered on alternate blocks -- since M1/2/3/4 run along the same route as far as 110th Street, most passengers don't care which they get, and they'll be stuck running back and forth from block to block when the "wrong" bus pulls up, causing havoc on the sidewalk and in the crosswalk.)
Hadn't thought of that, but a modification of that might do the trick. You couldn't use the existing double lane for reverse travel because the doors would be out in the street. But you could make it inactive when traffic was heading the other way.
So, when buses are heading south on Madison, nobody could head north?
What bus routes would run down Madison? How would the 5th Avenue bus routes, all of which except the M5 run back north on Madison, get back uptown? How could northbound traffic (bus, car, whatever) be possibly accomodated without Madison? And, most importantly of all, what would this accomplish? We've already (on nyc.transit) discussed how to improve bus flow on 5th; even though we have differing ideas of the best way to go about it, I think we're both convinced that there is some sort of solution that doesn't cost a ton of money.
[I beg to differ. The avenues are the most reliable north-south routes in Manhattan precisely because the lights are timed for one-way traffic at the speed limit. (The timing has the side effect of self-enforcing the speed limit, at least approximately.) If the lights on Madison were retimed, traffic would flood 3rd and 6th. ]
Madison carries little traffic, which is why it works so nicely for buses.
And the lights could simply go in the direction of rush hour traffic.
[Neither placement is perfect. The disadvantage to far-side stops is that people are delayed by a red light when they're getting off across the street; the disadvantage to near-side stops is that stopped traffic blocks the bus stop and turns right from the left of the stopped bus.]
That assumes that other vehicles are allowed in the bus lane.
The great advantage of having the stop before the light is that in a bus lane, it decreases the net travel time because people can load while the light is red.
[So, when buses are heading south on Madison, nobody could head north?
What bus routes would run down Madison? How would the 5th Avenue bus routes, all of which except the M5 run back north on Madison, get back uptown? How could northbound traffic (bus, car, whatever) be possibly accomodated without Madison? And, most importantly of all, what would this accomplish? We've already (on nyc.transit) discussed how to improve bus flow on 5th; even though we have differing ideas of the best way to go about it, I think we're both convinced that there is some sort of solution that doesn't cost a ton of money.]
No, I would never stop traffic on Madison. The contraflow lane(s) would be active only in the rush hour direction: at other times, the buses would travel on Fifth. Similarly, the existing bus lanes would be active when rush hour traffic heads north, and revert to standard lanes otherwise. So during rush hour there would be no change in peak direction capacity; the contraflow lane would be active only when the bulk of traffic was moving in the other direction.
[The great advantage of having the stop before the light is that in a bus lane, it decreases the net travel time because people can load while the light is red. ]
Honour system! My latest observations (after getting the 30 day unlimited) are that ingressing is one of the biggest time consumers on heavly travelled lines.
Arti
[Honour system! My latest observations (after getting the 30 day unlimited) are that ingressing is one of the biggest time consumers on heavly travelled lines.]
I'm not sure if the honor system would work, but -- why the hell don't they try it and find out? If it did, it would save a lot of time and money.
Even if it didn't, you could have subway-style doors with metrocard swipers on either side. Easy enough to have a computer monitor entering passengers, with a video recording for evidence in case someone didn't pay.
I'm all for it. Another thing they could try out, to see how much it would improve timelyness and travel time, is to perhaps run free buses on heavily travelled routes, M86 comes to mind.
Arti
[I'm all for it. Another thing they could try out, to see how much it would improve timelyness and travel time, is to perhaps run free buses on heavily travelled routes, M86 comes to mind.]
Or they could just try making all the buses free for a week, and see what happens! There would be more passengers, but the reduction in loading time could potentially more than make up for that.
If there is Free Bus service on M15. That means. The Fare reveine would go down.
New Flyer D60HF#5501
[Or they could just try making all the buses free for a week, and see what happens! ]
Then they should also alter the schedules or the requirement for drivers to adhere. I have been on the bus when it slugs along not faster than you could walk (no traffic) probably because somehow he's way ahead of schedule.
Arti
[Then they should also alter the schedules or the requirement for drivers to adhere. I have been on the bus when it slugs along not faster than you could walk (no traffic) probably because somehow he's way ahead of schedule.]
Yeah, that's intensely foolish wherever it's done. I won't make any nasty comments because Ron would get upset, but if I had, I probabyly would have said that whoever thought that one up must have been in the late stages of Mad Cow disease!
[Yeah, that's intensely foolish wherever it's done. ]
Sometimes they even wait in the stop for several minutes, adn you see other buses passing you by, maddening.
BTW PCAC has just released their study on articulateds and they reccommend back door boarding.
http://www.pcac.org/reports/press/press329.htm
Arti
"Yeah, that's intensely foolish wherever it's done. I won't make any nasty comments because Ron would get upset, but if I had, I probabyly would have said that whoever thought that one up must have been in the late stages of Mad Cow disease!"
How do you know I don't already have mad cow disease? :0)
Sounds like you've ridden the M5 on Riverside Drive. An crying shame -- those buses used to fly.
I have, but it happenes on others too (M101/2/3)
Arti
I've been on an M86 that took close to ten minutes to board at one stop. Considering that most M86 riders probably transfer to or from the subway or another bus line, eliminating fare collection (and using both doors for boarding) is an excellent idea.
And they should get buses with more doors like they use in the rest of the world.
Arti
Neither placement is perfect. The disadvantage to far-side stops is that people are delayed by a red light when they're getting off across the street; the disadvantage to near-side stops is that stopped traffic blocks the bus stop and turns right from the left of the stopped bus.]
"That assumes that other vehicles are allowed in the bus lane."
No, it assumes that cars are allowed to turn right at an intersection in front of the bus (which they physically have to with a stopped bus in front of the intersection). So again, we have advantages and disadvantages to both situations.
Maybe part of the answer lies in allowing bus drivers to change lights as they approach. This has pluses and minuses too...
No, it assumes that cars are allowed to turn right at an intersection in front of the bus (which they physically have to with a stopped bus in front of the intersection). So again, we have advantages and disadvantages to both situations.
Right turns are banned on Madison Avenue for the length of the double bus lane (except, IIRC, at 46th Street for cabs alone).
My proposed Fifth Avenue solution is similar to what's currently on Madison, except it would be physically divided from the main roadway (with parking or loading zones along the dividing curb, outside the bus lanes). As on Madison, turns would be prohibited -- although, if necessary, one or two intersections could be given a third phase of the traffic signal that would stop buses (preferably when there are none approaching anyway) and allow right turns across the bus lane.
Thanks for correcting me on that detail. So your earlier point was, in fact, correct.
[No, it assumes that cars are allowed to turn right at an intersection in front of the bus (which they physically have to with a stopped bus in front of the intersection). So again, we have advantages and disadvantages to both situations.]
Of course. You didn't see the earlier posts we exchange on Usenet -- I was referring to the right turn issue.
"Of course. You didn't see the earlier posts we exchange on Usenet -- I was referring to the right turn issue."
If you're talking about posts other than on this site, I don't see them. But another Subtalker posted that there are no right turns allowed across the Madison Avenue bus lanes, thus addressing and removing my objection.
Madison carries little traffic, which is why it works so nicely for buses.
Madison carries a full two lanes of northbound traffic -- more when the bus lanes aren't in effect. It works so nicely for buses because (a) there are two bus lanes, not one; (b) right turns across the bus lanes are prohibited; and (c) the regulations are enforced. Basically, it's exactly what I proposed on nyc.transit, except it's only in effect part-time and it's separated from the general lanes by a white line rather than a curb. Buses would move quickly on other streets if a similar approach were taken.
And the lights could simply go in the direction of rush hour traffic.
That's what happens on the two-way avenues. I'd prefer to leave the one-way avenues one-way.
That assumes that other vehicles are allowed in the bus lane.
The great advantage of having the stop before the light is that in a bus lane, it decreases the net travel time because people can load while the light is red.
Absolutely. I was speaking generically. On a street with a bus lane where no other traffic is permitted for any reason, near-side stops are certainly preferable (unless there's a specific reason for far-side stops). But, as I pointed out, on Madison the stops take up the full block anyway.
If the TA would allow drivers (system-wide) to, at their discretion, allow passengers on and off at red lights when it wouldn't delay service, we'd see a notable improvement in running times.
No, I would never stop traffic on Madison. The contraflow lane(s) would be active only in the rush hour direction: at other times, the buses would travel on Fifth. Similarly, the existing bus lanes would be active when rush hour traffic heads north, and revert to standard lanes otherwise. So during rush hour there would be no change in peak direction capacity; the contraflow lane would be active only when the bulk of traffic was moving in the other direction.
I'm not picturing your proposed layout. Currently, when the (northbound) bus lane is active, the lanes are (from east to west) bus, bus, general, general, parking. When the southbound bus lane is active, who goes where?
And 5th Avenue would see no bus service at all during peak hours? Once again, where would northboud buses go? In the two-lane mixed-traffic remains on Madison, running against the flow of the timed lights? It would almost be faster to have all the buses wait until the lanes revert to their normal direction.
I see no advantage to putting southbound bus lanes on Madison as opposed to 5th. I see many disadvantages.
[Madison carries a full two lanes of northbound traffic -- more when the bus lanes aren't in effect. It works so nicely for buses because (a) there are two bus lanes, not one; (b) right turns across the bus lanes are prohibited; and (c) the regulations are enforced.]
(d) Madison doesn't start until 23rd Street, so it carries little thru traffic. That I think is the key, partly because in the area that parallels the most crowded are of 5th Avenue traffic is light and partly because the light traffic allowed them to dedicate two lanes to busses.
[If the TA would allow drivers (system-wide) to, at their discretion, allow passengers on and off at red lights when it wouldn't delay service, we'd see a notable improvement in running times.]
That's a good idea. I imagine they'd have to limit it to buses that were actually in the curb lane for fear of lawsuits . . .
[I'm not picturing your proposed layout. Currently, when the (northbound) bus lane is active, the lanes are (from east to west) bus, bus, general, general, parking. When the southbound bus lane is active, who goes where?]
General, general, general, general, contraflow, or a variation on that theme, e.g., general, general, general, contraflow, contraflow (since you have those block long stops).
[And 5th Avenue would see no bus service at all during peak hours? Once again, where would northboud buses go? In the two-lane mixed-traffic remains on Madison, running against the flow of the timed lights? It would almost be faster to have all the buses wait until the lanes revert to their normal direction.]
Actually, I had visualized balancing the southbound buses between fifth and Madison. But of course you could vary that, depending on traffic flow and passenger convenience.
The mixed traffic would go against the timed lights, yes, but only when it was going against rush hour, so that wouldn't be much of a liability.
It's an interesting idea, but I don't see any benefits over a proper bus lane on 5th Avenue (and I see a number of costs).
[[If the TA would allow drivers (system-wide) to, at their discretion, allow passengers on and off at red lights when it wouldn't delay service, we'd see a notable improvement in running times. ]
Egress takes virtually no time compared to ingress. I'd vote for honour system!
Arti
[What am I missing?]
Speed and capacity.
I think a lot of people on this site envision New Orleans or some other heritage trolley type system. Modern light rail is more subway-like than trolley-like or bus-like. You can hook up several articulated cars, some systems up to four, or the rough equivalent of eight buses, but with one driver. They run in a row that is all their own and cars and taxis don't mess with it, for fear of fines mostly, though the fear of getting hit is a factor. And yet they have a better safety record than buses.
If the go-with-bus analysis was correct, no one would be building LRT systems. They'd just be doing buses. Instead it is the most popular form of rail transit development in the U.S. Perhaps the world.
They go through all the ideological pain of going to rail (nimby much stronger where rail is new) for a reason: buses remain the workhorse, but they need something faster and with higher capacity in their major corridors. Subways are best, but they cost 10x more. LRT provides more HRT-like operating characteristics at more bus-like cost.
NYC shouldn't spend funds on a LRT system on 2nd. av. Granted it would greatly reduce traffic. But why do this and divert funds from subway construction? Further, you're looking at a whole new division of NYCT. Seems real costly.
I support 2nd Ave. But even after it, congestion will keep rising in a growing city (yeah!). Developing LRT in these 2nd tier corridors makes sense. The primary reason is that it is much LESS costly.
The 2nd Ave. DEIS proposed LRT in lower Manhattan for this very reason: because it saved money. A bunch of folks didn't agree that it should be used to replace the southern leg of 2nd Ave., including me. A full-length line is warranted. But NYCT has obviously signed-off on the idea of LRT. The day is coming.
Don't get me wrong. While I despise LRT, I think it could work wonders on Manhattan's traffic problems. But I am completely against any LRT that would be built before 2nd. av. LRT could be built in Manhattan Much like the IRT H system: One on west side, One on east side with a crossing at 42nd. st. I Don't really hate LRT that much. I just hate it in comparison to Subways, which are much better at moving loads of people.
Just explain me how would you address following problems:
1. Cross streets with turning cars and jaywalkers.
2. NYC fare sytem. (It could take few minutes to board 5 to 10 passangers incompetent of the use of Metrocard.)
3. Placement of the ROW, knowing that deliveries need to be made.
Arti
Good questions.
I should dig through the 2nd Ave. DEIS, and see how the consultants answered each one. It implicitly had NYCT sign-off at the time. I haven't read it, but have given these issues some thought. Here's my take:
1. Cars/Jaywalkers. Most cities successfully use turn arrows to regulate car turns. Loss of auto capacity is a real issue. I think it is the biggest one facing LRT here. I believe more transit (and people carrying capacity) is worth it. I also believe fewer cars would be an improvement.
LRT is nimble, and can stop in front of jaywalkers more easily than large trucks. The ability to mix with traffic in urban settings is what distinguishes the technology. It has a safety record surpassing buses.
2. Fare system. Two thoughts. One is proof of payment (POP), which most LRT systems use. Sidewalk ticket machines could take cash (or Metrocards) and dispense receipts. Officials cruise the system and randomly enforce. Most systems figure you get checked every 10th trip or so. This works well elsewhere. Stiff fines keep people honest. Even the LA LRT -- and subway for that matter -- uses POP, and they have some tough folks out there. Still, even in safer NY, would the ticket machines quickly end up in some front rooms?
Another approach would be to have multiple bus-style machines on board that would allow folks to move through quickly. The standard light rail vehicle these days is, by the way, low floor. If very long multiple segment cars that take up the whole block are used, a mid-point wide entry could be used with a C/R operating the door and ensuring payment. People leave through several exit-only doors like buses. A second person adds O&M cost, but could be worth it for a long train. People could all load into this very large "reception" area, the doors close, and the LRT moves along as fares are paid through a large number of bus-style machines. ADA could enter at the front of the train, and be handled by the T/O. Low floor. Quick entry.
3. Delieveries. The ideal LRT row is in the center of a two-way street with island platforms. Keeps the auto and pedestrian conflicts to a minimum. Manhattan crosstown streets, for example, could utilize center running. Most LRT systems have to use side running, however. On NY's many one-way streets, side running would be necessary. I think the best approach is a rough surface that is a bear to get across, strongly encouraging deliveries and jaywalkers to use the intersections and side streets. No snow plowing needed for LRT; no need for surface to be smooth. A low fence could also separate the sidewalk from the row and discourage mid-block crossings. An important issue in dense NYC, but doable working with the community. Businesses will go NIMFY (FRONT yard), but visits to other cities to get testimonials that systems increase foot traffic is often key.
Again, all of these issues were thought through for the East Village LRT loop of the original 2nd Ave. DEIS. Perhaps someone knows what the official NYCT answers were.
[1. Cars/Jaywalkers. Most cities successfully use turn arrows to regulate car turns. Loss of auto capacity is a real issue. I think it is the biggest one facing LRT here. I believe more transit (and people carrying capacity) is worth it. I also believe fewer cars would be an improvement. ]
In last few years similar trend can be observed in Manhattan. Major cross streets, like 34th and 42nd have it. Also "recessed" (IMHO ridiculous term) crosswalks on 5th and Madison. More transit related, 24th and 3rd for M10x-ses to turn. The problem is that pedestrians have no clue (don't care) and pretty much keep on jaywalking. If we don't want to have more "death avenues" the LRT has to pretty much be able to stop immediately (reduced speed.)
[LRT is nimble, and can stop in front of jaywalkers more easily than large trucks.]
Are you serious?! One could call this a truism, only if the LRT runs at 5MPH.
[ The ability to mix with traffic in urban settings is what distinguishes the technology. It has a safety record surpassing buses. ]
Modern LRT practice is mostly private ROW, how do you envision in NY county?
[2]
I'm all for POP (or honour sytem.) If to think of it PATH is somewhat of an honour system, and it works. IMHO current bus fare collecting, especially with an unified citywide fare is absolutely aniquated. I don't know how often do you experience Manhattan xtown travel, but my personal experience is that fare collection takes more time than travel, IMHO an absurd situation.
[3]
If the police would enforce excisting laws ,the bus lanes would work. I have personally seen the traffic enforcement to let violators go, in spite of public support to punish them (can bring examples if there's an interest.) What would make you think that LRT woud faze those blatant delivery trucks. At least once in a week I wake up (windows facing the street) on car signals (up to 15 min) because some truck has blocked ALL traffic.
Arti
A few comments:
* LRT goes the speed limit. Just like cars/trucks. And they really are nimble for their size. Otherwise, you would have heard a real outcry in the cities it operates in by now. Speed in urban areas(relative to buses) comes from coordinated signals and quick loading/unloading.
* In most systems, LRT runs in private row outside the city centers. But they leave that old RR row and run on city streets once they approach the CBD. That is why they build LRT systems and don't just fire up commuter rail. The ability to mix with traffic and pedestrians sets it apart from heavy or commuter rail. And why it is so popular. Long haul here is covered with HRT and CRT. I see LRT running on heavy bus routes where subway investments can't be scraped together.
* I imagine you are talking about trucks blocking intersections. This of course is a real problem generally. I would favor putting cameras on the front of LRT vehicles and have huge fines levied against them. Have an argument with the ticket you got in the mail? "Let's go to the videotape." My observation is NYers do rude things only when they know they can get away with it. If there is a consequence, they shape up. A system with teeth is necessary, but if it is well designed, it is effective too.
NYC will not be inventing the wheel here. All these issues have been worked to a fine sheen in a couple of dozen US cities since the early '80s when modern light rail got going. And in dozens of foreign cities as well.
[*In most systems, LRT runs in private row outside the city centers. But they leave that old RR row and run on city streets once they approach the CBD. ]
In Manhattan this scenario woul encompass the whole ROW. If you look at the LRT deployment in US, it's mostly relatively low population density areas.
[* I imagine you are talking about trucks blocking intersections. ]
No, I'm talking trucks blocking the WHOLE street, "triple parking" if you wish.
[I would favor putting cameras on the front of LRT vehicles and have huge fines levied against them.]
What would that do? I've seen traffic rules blatantly disregarded in front of the enforcement officer, without any consequences?!
[NYC will not be inventing the wheel here. All these issues have been worked to a fine sheen in a couple of dozen US cities since the early '80s when modern light rail got going. ]
NYC is in many ways very unique, too many examples to bring up here.
Arti
[In Manhattan this scenario woul encompass the whole ROW. If you look at the LRT deployment in US, it's mostly relatively low population density areas.]
The LA Blue Line runs in a pretty dense corridor. Moreover, I am suggesting LRT in NYC as augmenting the subway system, not replacing it. It wouldn't be the only rail system, as in most other cities. It would be a step up from a overburdened dense bus corridor where the money can't be found for subway development.
[I'm talking trucks blocking the WHOLE street, "triple parking" if you wish.]
That would be a problem for auto traffic, as it is now. And for buses, as it is now. But the LRT would be in its own ROW and would bypass the triple parking.
[What would that do? I've seen traffic rules blatantly disregarded in front of the enforcement officer, without any consequences?!]
I think that if the decision is made to enforce blocking LRT, it can be done. It would likely require the creation of a dedicated division that reviewed video tapes and sent out the tickets. At one time, people said it would be impossible to get paint off of the trains, but it happened. Blocking a bus is seen as no big deal. Stopping a train with several hundred people will be seen (as it is elsewhere) as a more significant infraction.
[NYC is in many ways very unique, too many examples to bring up here.]
Bring 'em up. I will try to answer. I am pro-rail, and don't just want more and more buses. They are being asked to do line hauling which they are not best suited for. But we don't have the money to build every subway line that is justified. A middle approach is necessary, or we are quickly headed to gridlock.
[Moreover, I am suggesting LRT in NYC as augmenting the subway system, not replacing it. It wouldn't be the only rail system, as in most other cities. It would be a step up from a overburdened dense bus corridor where the money can't be found for subway development. ]
You mean not in Manhattan?
[I think that if the decision is made to enforce blocking LRT, it can be done. It would likely require the creation of a dedicated division that reviewed video tapes and sent out the tickets. ]
What would stop doing it now to enforce bus lanes, illegal parking?
Few reasons why light rail won't work in Manhattan.
1. Streets are too narrow to dedicate a private ROW.
2. Street grid is too dense to effectively, without serioulsly limiting the options for car traffic (turning,) to achieve any higher speed than buses.
3. Non-dedicated ROW would be blocked by auto traffic and without the flexibility of the buses would probably be even slower.
4. Grid locks, would kill LRT, buses have the flexibility to "push" around.
[A middle approach is necessary, or we are quickly headed to gridlock. ]
We are there already, have you rode a bus in Manhattan?
Arti
[You mean not in Manhattan?]
Wherever buses pile up. Fordham, Flushing or Jamaica would also be good candidates.
[What would stop doing it now to enforce bus lanes, illegal parking?]
They should enforce bus lanes. But it is more difficult because their lanes are just part of the road, not seperate. There is also only several dozen people being held up, instead of several hundred. So it doesn't seem as pressing a priority.
[1. Streets are too narrow to dedicate a private ROW]
Actually, the main ones are incredibly wide. Nothing like them in other major cities of the world. Some car carrying capacity would be lost, but that would be a positive in its own right. For example, one million cars enter Manhattan every day. I don't think they all need to be there. They also make the pedestrian environment very hostile. Manhattan could survive without cars. It would die without pedestrians. Cars are the number one cause of death for children in this city. So more transit and less cars are a double benefit for me.
[2. Street grid is too dense to effectively, without serioulsly limiting the options for car traffic (turning,) to achieve any higher speed than buses]
See above.
[3. Non-dedicated ROW would be blocked by auto traffic and without the flexibility of the buses would probably be even slower.]
There would be dedicated ROW except for crossing intersections. I agree that without an agressive plan for enforcement, there would be failure. But I also believe only a few $200 tickets would have to be written before drivers would do everything possible to avoid the LRT Box (painted some appropriate bright color). If moving cars is #1 for this City, forget LRT. If moving people is #1, then cars are going to need to become 2nd class to transit and pedestrians. It's that simple.
[4. Grid locks, would kill LRT, buses have the flexibility to "push" around.]
See above. Buses mostly get caught up themselves.
[We are there already, have you rode a bus in Manhattan?]
I do. On the heavy corridors, they are slow, low capacity, and expensive to operate. When I say a middle option, I am referring to something between subway and buses. Where subways would have been built in the past. But we are past those building days. With today's finances, would the J be built today? The L? The concourse line next to the 4? We are lucky we have all of these. But we also need to realize nothing like them is going to be built anytime soon. It's just more and more buses, or being open to another form of rail.
[Cars are the number one cause of death for children in this city. ]
Now imagine the jay walking habits of New Yorkers and LRT running down some avenue, wonder what death toll would be.
[If moving cars is #1 for this City, forget LRT. If moving people is #1, then cars are going to need to become 2nd class to transit and pedestrians. It's that simple. ]
Stand and observe a normal day traffic in Manhattan, also in business districts the parked vechicles. Mostly trucks and cabs. So would stop deliveries and aren't cabs for moving people?
Arti
[Now imagine the jay walking habits of New Yorkers and LRT running down some avenue, wonder what death toll would be.]
LRT safer than buses; both MUCH safer than cars. An anti-rail argument not supported by the stats.
[Stand and observe a normal day traffic in Manhattan, also in business districts the parked vechicles. Mostly trucks and cabs. So would stop deliveries and aren't cabs for moving people?]
And also many many private, single occupant autos.
Enhanced transit will take a lot of people out of cabs. Especially for crosstown trips.
[LRT safer than buses; both MUCH safer than cars. An anti-rail argument not supported by the stats. ]
Show me a place where LRT would be run like in Manhattan it would be.
[Enhanced transit will take a lot of people out of cabs. Especially for crosstown trips. ]
Unless it's going to be grade separated, it ain't gonna happen, and BTW where would you find space on xtown streets to put a private ROW? Are you going to ban cars from them?
Arti
[Show me a place where LRT would be run like in Manhattan it would be.]
The LA Blue Line to Long Beach goes through dense territory.
[Unless it's going to be grade separated, it ain't gonna happen, and BTW where would you find space on xtown streets to put a private ROW? Are you going to ban cars from them?]
You'd use 2 of the 4 lanes. The streets to either side may need to take some of the slack, as I recall the 42nd plan had.
[You'd use 2 of the 4 lanes. The streets to either side may need to take some of the slack,] [as I recall the 42nd plan had. ]
How would you deliver anything to locations on those streets?
[as I recall the 42nd plan had. ]
And got scrapped for the obvious reasons, like being stupid in the first place.
Arti
[How would you deliver anything to locations on those streets?]
I would advocate center running, leaving space on the sides for a through lane and some turnouts.
[And got scrapped for the obvious reasons, like being stupid in the first place.]
Many corridors in NY deserve a subway extension. Maybe one or two of them will see one anytime soon. The others will have to go with a bus-only approach, which is increasingly not working. A cross-town M42 or M104 is pretty miserable. Alternatively we need to be open to other approaches. LRT has its problems, but I think the greater speeds, capacities and economies are worth it.
[I would advocate center running, leaving space on the sides for a through lane and some turnouts. ]
Guess what, I envisioned the same thing, otherwise it would be totally implauseble. Now let's analyze a 4 lane street, 2 taken by a LRT. Comes a stop, don't you need platforms? 0 lanes left at that point.
[. A cross-town M42 or M104 is pretty miserable. ]
Not IMHO, I'd rather plan my trip to use 42nd than 23rd or even worse 34th.
[LRT has its problems, but I think the greater speeds, capacities and economies are worth it. ]
LRT in Manhattan would be a boondoggle, it just wouldn't work presenting the objectives we need t ofolloe, at the same time in the boroughs, yes.
Arti
[Guess what, I envisioned the same thing, otherwise it would be totally implauseble. Now let's analyze a 4 lane street, 2 taken by a LRT. Comes a stop, don't you need platforms? 0 lanes left at that point.]
More likely parking/standing lanes are gone for that stretch.
[Not IMHO, I'd rather plan my trip to use 42nd than 23rd or even worse 34th.]
They are all pretty bad. Particularly compared with how quickly one goes N-S in the subways.
[More likely parking/standing lanes are gone for that stretch. ]
Still 0 lanes where you need a platform, "parking/stopping" lanes are needed to perform deliveries, how would you address that problem, or would you perhaps tell the businesses along those routes to close.
Arti
[Still 0 lanes where you need a platform, "parking/stopping" lanes are needed to perform deliveries, how would you address that problem, or would you perhaps tell the businesses along those routes to close.]
Only briefly where there is a platform.
[Only briefly where there is a platform. ]
De facto closing those streets you mean!
Arti
[De facto closing those streets you mean!]
Where there is a station: 2 tracks, a center platform, 2 lanes of traffic.
Where there is no station: 2 tracks, 2 lanes of traffic, 2 'lanes' of loading.
Twisting things aroun, eh? This started up regarding x streets with currently 4 lanes.
Arti
[Twisting things aroun, eh? This started up regarding x streets with currently 4 lanes.]
They mostly have 6 lanes, with 2 set aside for parking/loading.
[They mostly have 6 lanes, with 2 set aside for parking/loading. ]
No they are not!
Arti
"The 2nd Ave. DEIS proposed LRT in lower Manhattan for this very reason: because it saved money. A bunch of folks didn't agree that it should be used to replace the southern leg of 2nd Ave., including me. A full-length line is warranted. But NYCT has obviously signed-off on the idea of LRT. The day is coming."
How likely is it that LRT will become the "Preferred Alternative" in a study. That's a lot different than being mentioned as an alternative in a study. Alternatives are often included in studies as points of comparison, but can be expected to be killed before the final EIS comes out, or ruled out in the prelim. engineering plan.
I suspect this is true of LRT in Manhattan - but you believe that it actually has a real chance of happening. I will be watching with interest...
LRT was designed to be the consolation to southeastern Manhattan for having the Stubway only up north. I think they were very serious -- until the revolt brought back a full length 2nd Ave.
Yes, that is a plausible explanation. Throw the dog a bone - only he came back and demanded the whole steak...
[LRT was designed to be the consolation to southeastern Manhattan for having the Stubway only up north. I think they were very serious -- until the revolt brought back a full length 2nd Ave.]
Also, isn't there still an LRT plan for the far reaches of alphabet city? That's where it might actually make sense -- light traffic and relatively few customers -- though I think a multimodal bus service would be more appropriate.
I'm not sure what the status is. I know they planned on putting the LRT into the 2nd Avenue tunnel segment that was built in Chinatown. So the LRT would have to go elsewhere at this point. My guess is that the plan is dead at this point.
I am for buses until they get packed and the corridor gets packed with bunched buses. Time for something with higher capacity and higher speed. Not sure where this area's needs come out after the full-length 2nd Ave. is built. They probably don't need anything more, except perhaps for a key cross-town corridor or two.
The LRT is listed as an alternative on the draft EIS for 2nd Av subway, but it is not the Preferred Alternative. To my knowledge, MTA has no plans to take it any further.
[Not sure where this area's needs come out after the full-length 2nd Ave. is built. They probably don't need anything more, except perhaps for a key cross-town corridor or two.]
If the train runs down Second Avenue there's still a coverage problem in Alphabet City.
That's an interesting point. NJ Transit maintains commuter cars/locomotives and LRT type vehicles. They have no true subway equipment.
MTA maintains commuter rail equipment and has one of the world's largest fleets of subway cars - but no LRT. Unless they were to completely contract out the entire operation (the PA is doing that with AirTrain), MTA would have to develop a service yard/repair shop for LRT's and develop a whole group of people who would focus on that.
I'm not against it per se, but I could understand why the agency would look at that and say, "no thank you. Our plate's full as it is."
Interesting point, But, I believe HBLR is totally a design build maintain operate contract, and NJT operation of the Newark PCC's is nearly insignificant. OTOH, if the TA were to built LRT (a poor choice IMHO) the logical move is to spec as many compatible parts/sub assemblies as possible from the most recent subway cars. Windows, doors, door controls, seats , destination signage, etc could all be compatible. Think of the CTA 6000's
Yes, that certainly would be a good approach. Or one could provide an overhead catenary and rectifier and run subway cars on the LRT (such as MBTA's Blue Line cars).
Speed and capacity.
Nope.
Speed: Speed on city streets is governed by traffic signals and pedestrian interference. Once any vehicle, bus or train, exceeds 30 mph, it will start hitting red lights each block. A bus is certainly capable of reaching 30 mph, the maximum relevant speed. Subway speeds are impossible on surface streets in NYC.
Capacity: Yes, the capacity of one bus is less than the capacity of one light rail vehicle. But unless you were planning a nonstop flow of light rail vehicles, bus headways can be reduced arbitrarily until the desired capacity is reached. For instance (and I'm pulling these numbers out of a hat), if a bus has a capacity of 75 and an LRT car has a capacity of 50, with four-car trains scheduled at five-minute headways, the identical capacity is attained by running buses at 1.875-minute headways. In fact, the latter is preferable as passengers will have shorter waits for the bus than for the LRT -- under a minute, on average, for the bus, vs. 2.5 minutes for the LRT.
Remember, too, that Manhattan city blocks are short and that the LRT has to fit in a block.
I think a lot of people on this site envision New Orleans or some other heritage trolley type system.
I've never been to New Orleans. Rather than waste my time envisioning a "heritage" or "modern" or "old-fashioned" or "cutting-edge" system, I ask a simple question: What's the advantage over the alternative? Whether it's new or old is of no import; if it best solves the problem it should be implemented, and if it doesn't it should be put aside. From what I can tell, in the NYC setting, buses do everything LRT does, for less money and with much greater convenience to the riding public. Buses have no glitz, but that's irrelevant.
They run in a row that is all their own and cars and taxis don't mess with it, for fear of fines mostly, though the fear of getting hit is a factor.
Oh, certainly, I agree that a dedicated roadway is a must. I simply don't see why that dedicated roadway must be of tracks rather than of asphalt. Enforcement can be automated -- for instance, authorized buses can be equipped with E-ZPass-like transponders and any unauthorized vehicle in the bus roadway can be automatically sent a bill for $250 per occurrence.
You didn't respond to some of my objections. I'll repost perhaps the strongest one here; I look forward to your rebuttal.
Anyone who's ridden a bus down 5th Avenue between (roughly) 60th Street and 42nd Street can agree that traffic there is just awful and that the current bus lane serves no purpose. A dedicated bus roadway is most certainly warranted here, if anywhere. North and south of this mile, traffic generally moves smoothly; no separate roadway is needed for buses.
With buses, the solution is obvious: have buses run in mixed traffic north and south of the troublesome mile, and build a dedicated roadway one mile long. Buses would run on their existing routes, except they'd use the dedicated roadway where it exists. It would be two lanes wide, so locals, limiteds, and express buses could share it with no conflicts.
But what do we do with LRT? There are six local/limited bus lines on that part of 5th Avenue and many express routes as well. Is the trackway installed for that one mile alone? Then bus riders will have to get off their buses at 60th Street, ride for a mile, and board new buses at 42nd Street. The buses could run through in addition to the LRT, but, with the now narrower avenue, traffic would be even worse than it is today. (There would be no problem for anyone riding only within the mile in question, but nearly all passengers either board north of 60th or disembark south of 42nd.)
Or do you extend the LRT system over the entire route of each of the current bus routes? For the local routes alone, that means not only laying track on all of 5th Avenue but also laying track across the Queensboro Bridge (for the Q32) and up Riverside Drive (for the M5) -- and if we're concerned with express routes, that track will need to be laid through the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel, along the Gowanus Expressway, and over the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge. Suffice it to say that most of the track laid will be in locations it is entirely unnecessary except to provide route continuity to 5th Avenue.
(This raises another question: How do the LRT vehicles get back north? Unlike on 5th Avenue, buses move just fine on Madison -- yet, presumably, more track would be laid simply so the vehicles could get back up north.)
A few comments:
Speed. True, LRT only goes the speed limit. LRT is quicker mostly because of much faster boarding and unboarding.
Capacity. Your LRT numbers are low. I would estimate that a train with four articulated cars can carry about 600. More generally, I will reiterate: if buses are the answer in all non-subway situations, two dozen cities (using billions of federal dollars) would have gone with buses instead of their LRT systems. They went with rail because of it greater speed, greater capacity, and lower operating costs. The spigot would have been turned off years ago otherwise. Instead, they are all either expanding their systems, or looking into doing so. And many other cities are joining in, including, most recently, Houston. How many cities have joined the subway ranks in the past couple of decades? LA and San Juan is it, I think. LRT is a very successful technology.
Length of LRT. One Manhattan block length is about 200', or about 4 articulated cars (without having to mess with FRA compliant behemoths you see elsewhere). As long as any system I know, and about as long as you would want here.
Dedicated ROW. I agree with your comment about going with what works. I am just not aware of a dedicated row for buses as you describe. Cars get on them if the ROW is part of the road. Snow removal and other operational issues become a problem if it is a separate lane (HOV lanes on highways face similar issues). And you still have something that goes slower, with less capacity, at more O&M cost. Perhaps why no one has gone through all the effort to set up a bus corridor with all of these features, then not going all the way and inserting rail.
Your issue of 5th Avenue where buses hit gridlock. LRT would push through this, and would only take away one lane of traffic, instead of two. North-south Manhattan LRT should run the length of the island, eliminating most buses, but not all. I would see LRT used on N-S streets in pairs: 5th and Madison, or 9th and 10th (there is need for another line for the developing west side, but what are the chances of a new west side subway?).
[One Manhattan block length is about 200', or about 4 articulated cars (without having to mess with FRA compliant behemoths you see elsewhere). As long as any system I know, and about as long as you would want here.]
Major gridlock problem!
No. You just keep LRT train lengths short fit between streets. What is the priority: transit/pedestrians?, or keeping car drivers happy?
[No. You just keep LRT train lengths short fit between streets. What is the priority: transit/pedestrians?, or keeping car drivers happy?]
I wasn't thinking about drivers but about how a four-car train would get across an intersection in the short window left when the gridlock clears.
[I wasn't thinking about drivers but about how a four-car train would get across an intersection in the short window left when the gridlock clears.]
Why I agree that a plan would need to be in place to keep the LRT corridor free in the first place.
[Why I agree that a plan would need to be in place to keep the LRT corridor free in the first place. ]
And how would you do that? Remember he's talking about x-street traffic causing a gridlock.
Arti
[And how would you do that? Remember he's talking about x-street traffic causing a gridlock.]
I outlined an aggressive video enforcement plan in an earlier post.
[I outlined an aggressive video enforcement plan in an earlier post. ]
Get real.
Arti
[Get real.]
If you went to another city and said "we aren't going to allow right turns on red", people would say "get real". Yet it works here.
When people said "we need to stop fare evasion", people said "get real". Yet it has largely stopped.
When people said "it is time to stop painting graffiti on subway cars", people said "get real". Yet it has stopped.
Just a question of priorities, and clearly communicating them, with a large stick handy as a reminder. I believe NYers are open to solutions to the increasing gridlock. It's rapidly becoming a threat to the City's economy.
OK, take a map and draw what you dream of, post it here, and the let's talk. Present a plan.....
Arti
[OK, take a map and draw what you dream of, post it here, and the let's talk. Present a plan..... ]
I'll have to do that when I get a minute (or two or three). The key is street cross sections to see how much space there is in a particular corridor. Also, I know that George Haikalis et al. have been working on an 8th Street cross town proposal for a while. Perhaps they have worked up a detailed proposal.
[The key is street cross sections to see how much space there is in a particular corridor]
I believe on MTA's site there is information about 2nd Avenue.
[Also, I know that George Haikalis et al. have been working on an 8th Street cross town proposal for a while. Perhaps they have worked up a detailed proposal. ]
I saw an M8 on 14th Street on Friday.. mm, perhaps the regular route was blocked. LRT on 8th Street WOULD have to share the ROW, as there's a need to accomodate other vechicular traffic, and the streets are quite narrow.
Arti
[I believe on MTA's site there is information about 2nd Avenue.]
I wouldn't start there. I support the full 2nd Ave. -- and believe it actually should be 4 track, at least on the northern half.
[I saw an M8 on 14th Street on Friday.. mm, perhaps the regular route was blocked. LRT on 8th Street WOULD have to share the ROW, as there's a need to accomodate other vechicular traffic, and the streets are quite narrow.]
Yes. I think his proposal is different than what I have talked about, and would run with autos. I favor a separate ROW.
[pI wouldn't start there. I support the full 2nd Ave. -- and believe it actually should be 4 track, at least on the northern half. ]
I'm not talking about that, there's some study about bus lanes having some information about street geometry.
[Yes. I think his proposal is different than what I have talked about, and would run with autos. I favor a separate ROW. ]
Separate ROW on St. Marks is impossible. All in all the 8th Street xtown trolley is a ridiculous waste of money and could be justified only as a tourist attraction not a means of transit. If a private company would build it, I wouldn't mind, but I object spending taxpayers money on that.
Arti
[I'm not talking about that, there's some study about bus lanes having some information about street geometry.]
I'll take a look.
[Separate ROW on St. Marks is impossible. All in all the 8th Street xtown trolley is a ridiculous waste of money and could be justified only as a tourist attraction not a means of transit. If a private company would build it, I wouldn't mind, but I object spending taxpayers money on that.]
I wouldn't pick 8th St. I only mentioned it because there is already a group actively advocating a surface rail system in Manhattan. Sorry for any confusion.
Speed. True, LRT only goes the speed limit. LRT is quicker mostly because of much faster boarding and unboarding.
NYC buses have slow fare collection -- no doubt about it. But that could be fixed. In fact, whatever you had in mind for LRT fare collection, do the exact same thing with buses. Mode of traction has nothing to do with this.
Capacity. Your LRT numbers are low.
Irrelevant. I even said I pulled them out of a hat.
If an LRT has a capacity of n and a bus has a capacity of m, if I run buses n/m times as frequently as you'd run LRTs, we end up with the same total capacity -- and with greater convenience on the bus, since headways are shorter. (Frequent small vehicles are preferable to infrequent large vehicles with the same total capacity.)
This breaks down only if there's no way buses could run that frequently. That might be an issue on 2nd Avenue but it's not on 5th, where the big problem is one of speed.
More generally, I will reiterate: if buses are the answer in all non-subway situations, two dozen cities (using billions of federal dollars) would have gone with buses instead of their LRT systems. They went with rail because of it greater speed, greater capacity, and lower operating costs. The spigot would have been turned off years ago otherwise. Instead, they are all either expanding their systems, or looking into doing so. And many other cities are joining in, including, most recently, Houston. How many cities have joined the subway ranks in the past couple of decades? LA and San Juan is it, I think. LRT is a very successful technology.
I never said buses are always the answer. LRT is certainly worthy of consideration if part of the route will be on grade-separated tracks. I've ridden the LRT lines in London (Docklands Light Railway, shortly after it opened), Boston (Green line T), and San Francisco (F-Market); in all cases, IINM, at least part of the line is fully grade-separated.
If you had proposed an LRT line that would run, in part, on existing subway tracks, I'd agree that the idea should be considered. But what you proposed is no better with steel-on-steel than with rubber-on-asphalt.
Dedicated ROW. I agree with your comment about going with what works. I am just not aware of a dedicated row for buses as you describe.
AFAIK, no such ROW currently exists; the Madison Avenue double bus lane is the closest we have. By the same token (er, MetroCard), though, no LRT track currently exists either. We'd have to build something new in either case.
Cars get on them if the ROW is part of the road.
The ROW would be physically divided from the road and would be clearly marked. Any unauthorized vehicle that enters the bus roadway would be automatically fined $250 per occurrence. Drivers would quickly learn that the bus lane is a very expensive way to bypass traffic (unlike now, when the worst that will happen is a cop waves them out of the lane).
Snow removal and other operational issues become a problem if it is a separate lane (HOV lanes on highways face similar issues).
Okay, that's an issue, but snow plows and salt trucks would be authorized to use the bus lanes and would keep them clear.
And you still have something that goes slower, with less capacity, at more O&M cost.
Not slower. Same capacity with greater convenience. Taking into account the cost of dedicated equipment, O&M cost is probably lower for a bus.
Your issue of 5th Avenue where buses hit gridlock. LRT would push through this, and would only take away one lane of traffic, instead of two.
Not without crippling the line. A bus roadway could also be a single lane wide, but I proposed a two-lane roadway so buses could pass each other. There are both local and limited buses on 5th Avenue; with two lanes, they could both share the bus roadway. They couldn't share an LRT line unless it was double-tracked with frequent (expensive) crossovers between tracks. And whichever bus lines don't switch to LRT won't have a bus lane at all!
A single track or lane anywhere is a problem: what happens if a train or bus gets stuck, or something happens to the track or roadway that doesn't allow vehicles to pass?
North-south Manhattan LRT should run the length of the island, eliminating most buses, but not all.
Do me a favor and look at the current 5th Avenue bus routes. None run along 5th Avenue from top to bottom -- they all turn on or turn off somewhere. People take advantage of that. Last month, for instance, I rode the M5 from Riverside Drive to 42nd and 5th. With a bus lane, the existing M5 could use the bus lane where it exists and the main street elsewhere. With an LRT, the M5 would either run in mixed traffic (ha!) or would terminate at 59th and 5th. That's a major, major shortcoming that you seem to be ignoring.
This flexibility also allows buses to continue moving if the bus roadway, say, caves in somewhere -- the buses can bypass the jam on the main street. (This would be useful for nighttime maintenance; buses could use the street where the bus lane is closed. Congestion isn't a problem at 3 in the morning.) The LRT can't go anywhere at all.
I have yet to see a single advantage, given the setting, to steel-on-steel over rubber-on-asphalt.
[Most US cities have their light rail lines in dedicated lanes -- no autos or buses allowed. The trains go faster than the cars on the same street. Because a lane of traffic is lost for that dedicated corridor, there will be less auto capacity, but I don't think more cars are the solution, nationally, and especially NYC.]
I agree -- it's just that in much of NYC dedicated lanes don't work very well, and there are way too many travellers for light rail to be effective.
There are some areas where light rail could be useful, e.g., along West Street, but even there I think it would make more sense to go with a more versatile and cheaper busway system that would give you more versatile routing options (because the driver could take the vehicle off the guideway and onto local streets, where there's no room for a dedicated lane.)
Another way of looking at it I think is that rails are really a secondary issue here. With a smaller vehicle size and equivalent ROW, tires are cheaper, and more versatile, though not as smooth. And when capacity gets up to the point where trains are necessary, it makes more sense to go with heavy rail which is compatible with the subway.
Do any of you think a version of Boston's new Silver Line (in progress, I believe) would work here (underground electric busway)?
[Do any of you think a version of Boston's new Silver Line (in progress, I believe) would work here (underground electric busway)?]
I think so. It would be a great way to deal with areas where traffic is too light to justify a subway, but too slow for buses. For example, you could run articulated buses across West 86th Street and through the transverse where traffic is light, then take them into a tunnel for the difficult journey through East Side traffic. So to for 125th Street and perhaps even the business district corridors. You could use them in lieu of the mixed over/under ground light rail vehicles on the Lower East Side. And they would be ideally suited to the West Street corridor.
Run Metro North Hudson and Riverdale Express snobway trains ($1.50 additional fare within the City on any train, free with an unlimited Metrocard) stopping at 168th, 86th, 59th, Javits, and 14th if you could defeat the NIMBY's. Then run busway service from the Port Authority bus terminal at 181st down Riverside Drive and into the West Side line tunnel where it widens to four tracks (not sure exactly where that is), then on to 34th and down West Street to Wall Street (or over the viaduct if NIMBY's block the commuter trains). Depending on demand, the services you could provide are virtually unlimited--zoned express service from midtown or Penn that would cut over on Fulton, Wall, or at the battery, links to the subways at 59th, local service for the West Side, 125th Street crosstown, etc.
On the East Side, you could take some load off the Lex and obviate the need for a West Street spur on the Second Avenue subway by running the buses right out of the Lexington passage at Grand Central (where that market is now), across a dedicated 43rd Street (never has any traffic anyway because it's blocked by GCT), via two dedicated lanes on 1st Avenue (no traffic there, either, because of the tunnel), then via 42nd Street under the FDR and down to lower Manhattan vai a dedicated busway on the unused ROW under and next to the FDR--in Lower Manhattan turn inland and run across Fulton, Wall, and State Street/Battery to join its equivalent on the West Side.
I can think of applications in the boroughs, too.
Interesting. I like the reference to "snobway."
[Interesting. I like the reference to "snobway."]
Also known as the Yuppie Express :-)
Yuppies (young URBAN professionals) live in Riverdale?
[Yuppies (young URBAN professionals) live in Riverdale?]
No (well, maybe yes), but the line also serves the West Side along Riverside Drive -- yuppie territory par excellence.
And the Park Avenue line would be the Preppy Express . . .
Bus dedicated lanes don't work well because, to date, they have been part of the road with just a strip of paint providing the separation. Snow removal issues etc.
LRT dedicated lanes have worked because they tend to be physically removed. On a slightly higher level, or with a rugged surface that rumbles any cars that drive on it, etc. No snow removal issue.
I think most of the wide roads, even in Manhattan, can accomodate LRT and leave several lanes of traffic. A unique opportunity relative to other major cities. Subways may work best, but we can't afford them everywhere they make sense. Buses are easiest to throw at the problem, but they bog down and just don't work well in heavily-used corridors. Ever sit in a bus and watch someone go into a store? Then come out while you have only moved a few feet? They just don't move well in congestion. They are also more expensive to operate.
If the choice is only subways or buses, get used to many many more buses.
(Another way of looking at it I think is that rails are really a secondary issue here. With a smaller vehicle size and equivalent ROW, tires are cheaper, and more versatile, though not as smooth. And
when capacity gets up to the point where trains are necessary, it makes more sense to go with heavy rail which is compatible with the subway.)
I agree with the busway option if you have, or can add, a completely separated ROW (my idea for the SIRT). Buses can run through neighborhoods, then get up on the busway and go. You really need to recreate the trolley era for LRTs to work.
On the other hand, some middle density cities have lots of abandoned rail trackage. If getting grade separated rails is easier than grade separated dedicated lanes, LRT is the way to go.
I don't think that LRT is the way to go. For a number of reasons.
1. You have to maintain a seperate yard facility, and that alone makes the idea bad. Where can you put a yard for the trains in Manhattan? For that reason alone, Light Rail is bad
2. Buses have free reign of streets. They aren't limited to tracks, and don't need yard facilities right smack in the middle of manahttan. If LRT can a slightly elevated ROW, then why no do it for the buses? And, Buses can eventually exit the ROW, something Light rail can't do.
3. Heavy Rail is better. While I know that new subways are expensive, why waste capitol on building new facilities, ROWs and purchasing the cars? LRT works fine in a medium density city (New Orleans is a good example), but in a city where Heavy rail has already been established, LRT seems stupid, at least to me.
1. You need a maintenance facility, true. It doesn't have to be separate, however. Could be part of a bus, HRT, or CRT facility. Not a major obstacle.
2. Slightly elevated means an few inches. Enough to keep cars off. Buses have a hard time staying on this kind of narrow, dedicated ROW. Though the Europeans are trying with lasers and other tricks.
3. I agree heavy is rail is better. It is also 10x more expensive. When was the last time a new line was built in NY (not just a short segment)? That is why HRT cities like LA, Cleveland, Baltimore, and New Jersey (both north and south), have switched to LRT for all their new projects. Other HRT cities like D.C., San Fran and Miami are looking at LRT options to augment principally HRT systems. Elsewhere, cities like London and Paris are using LRT in key corridors with great success and no stigma.
Join the railvolution. It is past time to reclaim the City from cars and for the pedestrian.
[Bus dedicated lanes don't work well because, to date, they have been part of the road with just a strip of paint providing the separation.]
I think it's more a matter of how you allocated/enforce the lane than whether a bus or rail runs on it. Forex, in San Francisco the remaining trolley lines run in traffic, underground, or on dedicated ROW, depending.
It seems to me that we could have successful bus lanes if we were realistic about enforcement. Dedicated cross streets are one way to go--buses would go down the middle, and local traffic could load and unload in the side lanes, except before a traffic light, where the rightmost lane would be occupied by a mini station. Buses would have subway style loading and stop every two blocks; right turns would be prohibited, left turns would be mandatory to prevent thru traffic, and where traffic is heavy enough traffic control officers would be stationed to prevent gridlock.
Well somebody has the bells ringing here and I haven't even finished my first cup of coffee. Dream on but has a cheap solution been found or not; we didn't really want to be stuck underground anyway, did we?
How about 2nd Ave. light rail? Yes I know New York is probably the most trolley-allergic city possible but let's get down to business here. I throw bull sometimes but this time I mean it, and if someone else has suggested it I'm sorry I just can't read all the posts.
IIRC 1st and 3rd run north traffic, 2nd and Lex south? No need to undo traffic patterns, say what you will about dedicated lanes, etc not working, etc can't enforce everything......
Lex was only mentioned for the illustration, not part of the picture and first Ave can come later unless someone thinks that's a more important plan than 3rd..take your pick. I'd guess 2nd and 3rd would be most likely first candidates. For a dedicated tramway in direction of travel, seriously, down 2nd, up 1st or 3rd. Service to the Bronx to replace lets say what has been (still?) Willis or 3rd Ave bus service? Or right over the Metro North Tracks on Park to Fordham. Farther north can wait for later. Additionally or instead the service lanes of the Concourse could be used for light rail service going into the Manhattan trunk, instead of busses (but then there's the subway already). So the Willis-3rd Ave-Park plan would be the most likely, or Washington Ave? But least disturbance would come about on Park Ave. There could also be the 125 st crosstown for short turns.
I know it isn't a heavy rail setup but it's cheap, it's almost as good, offers room for expansion (could in time be 2 tracks in each direction, and if they (the big word IF) can do things right light rail moves, and FAST. How about it people...don"t you think its time?
Go back to bed, Ed, dream again. You always worked the PM shift anyway when you were working.
Big Ed,
Your idea kinda sounds a tad farfetched for the TA, but it COULD be their only good, plausible solution.
I dunno 'bout the Willis-Park-3 Av thing, but running a light rail train under 2 Av (kinda like Newark's Subway LRT's running under Newark)seems good. Problem is that the TA would have to shell out more money for new cars, installing catenary equipment, AND reconfiguring and redesigning the stations (are they beginning to build them already or have they started?).
E-mail me the details about your plan, and then I'll tell you mine:
carlwal@hotmail.com
Not a bad idea. It's just will the TA go with it IF anyone says something about it?
CWalNYC
Actually it wasn't a subway I was thinking about. It would be either surface but I guess in NYC it would be a gargantuan task to restrict auto traffic to let trains move. I thought about that later. So up came the idea of running the light rail on an el over the sidewalks much like the orignal east side el over the Bowery. While a very unattractive solution in many peoples' minds it would be efficient , cheap, fast and would not really sacrifice too much of the ambience of the area. But New Yorkers will be New Yorkers. It is a far fetched idea I admit and unlikely it would be done but a good one to my mind.My European travels on light rail confirm that. It definitely couldn't be any worse a curse than excesses of auto traffic.
"So up came the idea of running the light rail on an el over the sidewalks much like the orignal east side el over the Bowery."
However, once you grade-separate the entire line, either elevated or underground, you might as well operate the system with subway or heavy rail equipment, because most of the expense at that point is building the tunnel or elevated structure.
Yes, light rail is a viable solution for a lot of cities, and at least a partial solution for most cities, probably. But few if any of these places are as uniformly dense as Manhattan. Light rail is typically chosen because the route for a particular line can have at least some at-grade, if not in-street, operation, thus greatly reducing the construction expense. With the possible exception of the West Side "elevated" structure, there is no such open space available in Manhattan, except POSSIBLY along the rivers, which are relatively distant from the centers of population and business.
Chicago's plan for a light rail connector between North Michigan Avenue, the Union and Northwestern train stations, and the Museum Campus/Soldier Field/McCormick Place area died for the same reason: it involved almost 100% street running, and therefore would have been caught up in the same traffic as the existing buses. Yes, there's Grant Park, but it doesn't extend up to North Michigan Avenue and there's VERY little sentiment for putting train tracks and catenary on the surface through the park -- heck, they're putting a roof over the open-cut Metra Electric (nee Illinois Central) line in order to reclaim park land as it is!
Conversely, most of the existing light rail lines in the US have at least some private ROW (PROW) or tunnel operation:
*Boston Green Line: downtown tunnel, PROW on at least one route.
*Newark Subway: downtown tunnel & PROW.
*Hudson-Bergen: PROW; street running the first several blocks.
*Philadelphia Subway-Surface: downtown tunnel.
*Baltimore: PROW with downtown street running.
*Cleveland Green and Blue Lines: mostly PROW.
*St. Louis, downtown tunnel, mostly PROW.
*Dallas: PROW with downtown street running and a short tunnel.
*Denver: PROW with downtown street running.
*Salt Lake City: PROW with downtown street running.
*San Diego: street running downtown; lots of PROW.
*San Francisco: downtown tunnel.
New Orleans (St. Charles Line; the tourist Riverfront line is all PROW) and Portland have mostly street running, IIRC. And I don't know Sacramento or Los Angeles' Green and Blue Lines. Nevertheless, the point is clear: most U.S. cities DON'T rely on mostly street running, and Manhattan doesn't have the land for PROW that other cities do.
These cities use LRT differently: as their line haul system bringing people in from the distant suburbs, often using freight rail corridors (including Sacramento and LA Blue -- LA Green is mostly in an intersate median); AND then as a distributor, going up on city streets.
They could have gone with heavy rail, as many cities do in freight rail corridors. But they would have to grade separate, and that increases costs 3x for above grade, or 10x for below grade (as a rule of thumb).
They could have gone with commuter rail, also an obvious way to use the freight track corridor. But they could not leave that corridor, and have to terminate the line at the edge of the city, and have some other transit system pick people up and distribute them.
NYC has subways and commuter rail for the line haul function. LRT here, as I see it, would take advantage of its street running capability and be strictly intra-burrough distribution on city streets. The densities are high enough that they will fill up doing just this job alone. LRT can augment the existing heavy and commuter rail systems in the places where bus corridors are overburdened, but we can't find the cash to build a subway line/extension.
So, you're saying that LRT would be good if we had the cash? I agree. But I think it is good. The TA can sort of make their LRT cars knda like those on LA METRO-Blue and Green lines because you would not have to grade-separate the already-built stations if there are any under Second Av. Well, that's my idea. I was talking about it with "bigedirtmanl" and we both sort of agreed that it seems good. The TA now must come up with the Benjamins, which will come in about...never. Huh! We'll see about that! By the time that happens, I'll be old and grey! And that's a long ass time!
CWalNYC
[So, you're saying that LRT would be good if we had the cash? ]
Actually, I was making the point that LRT is good because we DON'T have the cash -- for building all the subway lines that would make sense. LRT is 1/10 the cost. However, I am also for the full-length 2nd Ave. and connecting it with the Bronx and Brooklyn.
Ewww. Light Rail. I hate light rail.
Granted, your proposal would alleviate lots of traffic. Might even get high ridership. But, the idea of wasting money on what is essentially a bus service with it's own ROW is maddening. The rail laying, the purchase of cars, storage facilities, maintenece facilities, creating a whole new division of NYCT. Seems wasteful. All capitol should be diverted to building the 2nd. av subway. even a stertch of subway between 125th and 63rd. is better than nothing.
Agreed for the most part. Hope we do see it..if it happens, just thought an alternate plan would be a good idea as some 30 years of indecision, partial work, and fooling around have kept the subway from being.Money was voted for it twice that I know of and ...you know the rest.
[How about 2nd Ave. light rail? Yes I know New York is probably the most trolley-allergic city possible but let's get down to business here. I throw bull sometimes but this time I mean it, and if someone else has suggested it I'm sorry I just can't read all the posts.]
This comes up periodically. The problems are twofold: not enough capacity -- the Second Avenue subways is expected to carry something like 350,000 people per day -- and inadequate traffic flow -- even with dedicated lanes, the trolley would be slowed by gridlock.
"Too much traffic in crowded areas. In many cases the buses don't move faster than a walk, bus lanes or not, and I've never seen any evidence that light rail would move either -- if anything, it would be more likely to get jammed up, which is one of the reasons the City removed it in the first place."
NO JOSH! The OIL COMPANIES AND THE DRIVERS REMOVED IT.
N BROADWAY LINE
You're a dumbass.
Most of Manhattan's trolleys were removed during, before and shortly after World War II, before the oil companies had a crack.
I, however wouldn't expect you to read a book or even a website once in a while, maybe your white oppressors were the authors and you should slash them.
No need to waste typing time with you. Your already proven yourself to be a sick racist "person."
N Broadway Line
I admit I'm a racistist, that means I hate racists.
Therefore I hate you.
And you have proven yourself to be a DEVOUT racist several weeks ago when that slashing occured in Penn Station.
You need to stop bringing up matters that took place weeks ago. We discuss this already. No need to continue the baby talk. I'm over it. I know where your stand on the Penn station issue.
N Bwy
[NO JOSH! The OIL COMPANIES AND THE DRIVERS REMOVED IT.]
Well, General Motors, if you want a villain.
[I'm not sure that light rail fits the bill, though -- it's an old, excessively expensive technology, and I think that its main benefits can be achieved in a more cost-effective way.]
Excessively expensive? Compared to what, a traditional heavy-rail subway? Old? Streetcars may have been around longer than buses, but modern LRVs are definitely not traditional streetcars and if LRV service came to NYC, it would be more beneficial than regular buses that get stuck in traffic. In the case of 2nd Avenue, it should ideally be a tradtional subway so it can be compatible with existing lines. There's only one problem - it's outrageously expensive. At $3.5 Billion just for a "stubway" from 63rd Street to 125th Street, that alone has to make you wonder if there's an alternative.
[I've never seen any evidence that light rail would move either -- if anything, it would be more likely to get jammed up, which is one of the reasons the City removed it in the first place.]
New York City never had light rail, so how could City Hall have removed it? What it did have were traditional trolleys which mostly ran in the streets and in Manhattan, were powered by an expensive, complex underground conduit which ran in between the streetcar rails. The slot could and did fill up with snow. That alone disabled the cars. Then the sharp increase in auto and truck usage came along. Plus it was very hard to operate the cars and much easier to drive a bus. That's why trolleys disappeared from Manhattan streets.
Today's light-rail cars operate on private ROWs, tunnels, embankments and in streets. True, you can operate electric buses the same way, but good luck keeping cars and trucks out of busways. At least when you put a light rail line in its own ROW, you can and should use regular train tracks to keep cars out. Do you really think a lot of drivers are going to be dumb enough to try to drive on train tracks, even in New York?
I'm not saying light rail is ideal for 2nd Avenue, but $3.5 Billion just for a three-mile subway line? Come on! If the MTA is focusing on the Upper East Side/Harlem portion of 2nd Avenue, they need to look at other alternatives and stop with the "subway or no way" mentality. I think a crosstown extention under 125th Street is an excellent idea too, but that would probably add another $1 Billion to the cost because it would also have to be underground.
This site has excellent information about the 2nd Avenue Subway. But one of the more interesting things I found was an early-'90s report on building it in "increments" starting with a surface light rail from the South Bronx down 2nd Avenue to tie in with the then-proposed 42nd Street light rail. With the 42nd Street light rail project having been axed, that idea might still be a good start except maybe it could terminate at Grand Central terminal through a short underground connection. It would do more than the present "stubway" proposal does and probably for a lot less. What do you guys think?
[Excessively expensive? Compared to what, a traditional heavy-rail subway?]
Compared to newer guideway technologies which don't use tracks. They achieve the same thing for less money and they're more versatile.
[Old? Streetcars may have been around longer than buses, but modern LRVs are definitely not traditional streetcars and if LRV service came to NYC, it would be more beneficial than regular buses that get stuck in traffic. In the case of 2nd Avenue, it should ideally be a tradtional subway so it can be compatible with existing lines. There's only one problem - it's outrageously expensive. At $3.5 Billion just for a "stubway" from 63rd Street to 125th Street, that alone has to make you wonder if there's an alternative.]
I agree that the price quoted for the stubway is ridiculous, but it seems to me that the problem here is corruption. The most expensive subway in the country cost $250 million per mile, which would put the cost of the stubway at something like $750 million. I'm not even sure I want to think about why the MTA is quoting such a ridiculously high price.
Ultimately, though, the problem with light rail is that it doesn't have sufficient capacity for the Second Avenue corridor, and there's too much gridlock. The Second Avenue subway is expected to carry 350 thousand people per day. That's not light but heavy rail.
There are other places in the City where light rail could work, like way over on the West or Lower East Sides, but not there.
[New York City never had light rail, so how could City Hall have removed it? What it did have were traditional trolleys which mostly ran in the streets and in Manhattan, were powered by an expensive, complex underground conduit which ran in between the streetcar rails. The slot could and did fill up with snow. That alone disabled the cars. Then the sharp increase in auto and truck usage came along. Plus it was very hard to operate the cars and much easier to drive a bus. That's why trolleys disappeared from Manhattan streets.
Today's light-rail cars operate on private ROWs, tunnels, embankments and in streets. True, you can operate electric buses the same way, but good luck keeping cars and trucks out of busways. At least when you put a light rail line in its own ROW, you can and should use regular train tracks to keep cars out. Do you really think a lot of drivers are going to be dumb enough to try to drive on train tracks, even in New York?]
Seems to me that the distinction between light rail and trolley here is fairly academic. As you say, LRV can operate in tunnels, on embankments, and on the streets. I lived in SF not long ago where light rail did just that. Even the Bredas ran along the trolley tracks that have been in use for years, then joined together in the Market Street tunnel to form little trains. It's a great system, but San Francisco is much smaller and, except for a small downtown stretch, much less dense than the built-up parts of New York. Even so, the Muni Metro is short on capacity and so they had to rebuild the F Market trolley line to take off some of the load.
Anyway, if you have a separate ROW or tunnel, the only real difference between light and heavy rail is the size and weight of the vehicles. And that depends on how many passengers you have to carry, and in much of New York City, where 600' heavy rail trains are jampacked, there are just too many.
There are areas of New York where light rail could work, such as the far West or Lower East Sides. But I question whether light rail is the way to go even there. Automated electric busways are much more versatile than light rail because the vehicles can leave the guideway and operate anywhere, and they're cheaper because they don't require rail and you don't have to run rail and power everywhere -- the vehicles can carry batteries which are recharged while they're on the guideway, and in a few years they'll carry fuel cells, obviating the need to run power at all. And cars are no more likely to run on a guideway than on dedicated train tracks.
[, which would put the cost of the stubway at something like $750 million]
Well here it seems that $700M will buy you the design part of it.
Arti
Don't forget to consider cost of additional rolling stock, the purchase of property or easements on private property, and/or necessity of underpinning (that is, rebuilding foundations) of existing buildings under which a subway must run.
[the purchase of property or easements on private property, and/or necessity of underpinning (that is, rebuilding foundations) of existing buildings under which a subway must run. ]
That's why they use TBM and mining, mostly. Also TBM has evolved and has become in par with the cost with cut-and-cover in any areas (including tundra.)
The wryness of the situation is that the project to build here seems to cost as much as the actual construction in other areas.
Arti
[Well here it seems that $700M will buy you the design part of it.]
$699 million is for the graph paper . . .
J Lee,
THE BEST OPTION!
"Ideally, there would be a four-track Second Ave. subway, with the local turning west on 125th and continuing over to St. Nicholas Ave. (with stops at Lexington and Lennox) to connect with the A/B/C/D lines. That would serve the 125th Street corridor, which is busier than 135th Street is."
I have trouble with the below plan.
"The express would continue north from 125th and via a new tunnel to the Bronx, where it could either take over the Pelham line (terminating the 6 at Third Ave and 138th St. to allow a turnaround track) or run it straight up the middle of the borough alongside the Metro North tracks (with FRA mandated seperations) where it could serve as an express for people stuck with the long trip south through the Bronx on the No. 2 or the B and D trains."
I don't have problems with the underwater connection. The problem is taking over the #6 when the middle of the bronx doesn't have adequate transportation.
YES you have the 2, but that's not close enough. Does anyone remember the 3rd Avenue EL? It use to run all the way to Gun Hill Road. Unfortunately, the MTA fools tore the damn thing down. That could have connected to the propose 2nd Avenue Line.
3rd Avenue what I was told is nothing like it use to be. It was a vibrant economic enterprise. Now it's a barred land with very few walking soles over there. What is needed is a newly high tech 3rd Avenue EL that will serve a new clientele.
What does everyone think? Is it a feasable idea or what? It sure does bet replacing an already vibrant IRT (#6).
N Broadway Line
Astoria
>>3rd Avenue what I was told is nothing like it use to be. It was a vibrant economic enterprise. Now it's a barred land with very few walking soles over there. What is needed is a newly high tech 3rd Avenue EL that will serve a new clientele.<<
>>What does everyone think? Is it a feasable idea or what? It sure does bet replacing an already vibrant IRT (#6).<<
The idea is feasible. Like you said: MTA shouldn't have torn down 3rd. Av el in the first place. However:
the 2 not only serves central Bronx, but also the and D.
Ans, the TA generally doesn't build rails down barren streets.
The D is really in the West Bronx. The metro north and the number 2 are in the central bronx.
M Broadway Line
>>The D is really in the West Bronx. The metro north and the number 2 are in the central bronx.<<
They're close enough.
>>M Broadway Line<<
Ha.... I understand.
"The modeling studies showed that building a direct connection between an East Side subway extension and the Bronx would benefit a limited number of passengers, and a subway terminal station adjacent to the Lexington Avenue station at 125th Street would be most desirable from a cost-benefit standpoint."
Study? Hmmmm. How did they figure this out? I think connecting the Second Avenue line to the 6 (Southern Blvd) and than the 2/5 (3rd Avenue) is a much better bet. Than continuing on 3rd Avenue.
N bwy
[But since we know the line will never be extended to the Bronx, here's a thought. Instead of locating the station on a north-south axis, why not locate it east-west along 125th St., between Lex and Park.]
Several reasons I can think of --
-Many more transfers will be subway to subway than Metro North to subway and there's much less walking/congestion when the platforms parallel one another
-Who says the Second Avenue line will never connect to the Bronx? If express service is added, it will be logical to connect it to the Pelham Bay line, and you would want a cross-platform transfer between the Second Avenue local and Second Avenue Express
--Given the relatively few MN passengers, it seems to me that a pedestrian passage using a moving walkway is the logical choice for a transfer and would actually be faster than a N/S-E/W transfer (because of the moving walkway).
I disagree that parallel stations make for easier transfers. Perpendicular stations allow for one-stairway transfers, up or down. Parallel stations require you to go up, then down, to get over the adjacent track.
Perpendicular stations allow for one-stairway transfers...
A good argument for parallel stations; they allow transfers for the entire length of the platform :).
Yeah, but only for the tracks that are right next to each other. If 2 staions, of 2 different lines, are next to each other, how do you get from the northbound platform of one to the northbound platform of the other? You can't walk across the tracks! You have to go up (or down) to a mezzanine, the back down (or up). What am I missung?
Yeah, but only for the tracks that are right next to each other. If 2 staions, of 2 different lines, are next to each other, how do you get from the northbound platform of one to the northbound platform of the other? You can't walk across the tracks! You have to go up (or down) to a mezzanine, the back down (or up). What am I missing?
True.
But based on my own experience I think it's easier and faster to go down then up than to walk on average half the length of a train along a crowded platform. If there were high speed escalators and a high speed moving walkway (if I say these words often enough, will they come true?) it would really be a breeze. Some of the passages could right through to the 125th Street MN tracks making the whole thing an wonderful transportation complex.
And while I agree that it's more important to connect the Second Avenue subway to the Bronx than to run across 125th Street, I like the idea of a 125th Street crosstown too.
So the local line could run parallel to the existing station, then drop, turn West, loop back a bit, and run across 125th Street to the 8th Avenue line, where it would turn onto the two unused tracks of the six track (!) IND (they really knew how to overbuild in those days, didn't they?) and continue up to the stub that was put there to connect to the George Washington Bridge!
So you would have--
Second Ave Local--125th Street crosstown--(1/2) New Jersey, (1/2) Bronx via the Norwood line, transfer to the 7th Avenue at 168th Street (1/2 NJ would continue down the 8th Avenue in lieu of the Norwood capacity taken up by the Second Avenue Subway)
Second Avenue Express--existing tunnel--Pelham Bay Park, platforms shaved back to accomodate B division trains, and line extended to serve Co Op City
Lexington Avenue Local--Woodlawn
Lexington Avenue Express--Westchester Avenue 2/5/5 line to Dyre Avenue
7th Avenue Express--new line along Metro North ROW, turning off to East 180 Street station then running along existing line to 241st Street
. . . or something like that. You would actually have too much capacity in the Bronx because of the 148th Street spur on the 7th Avenue . . .
"And while I agree that it's more important to connect the Second Avenue subway to the Bronx than to run across 125th Street, I like the idea of a 125th Street crosstown too."
There's no law that prohibits building one, then connecting a branch to it!
[There's no law that prohibits building one, then connecting a branch to it!]
True. And I'm not sure that they would have to be connected at all!They could just run a completely automated crosstown line. It seems to me that all those IND-style connections end up slowing things down as trains negotiate the curves and wait for clearance.
Anyway, while worthwhile, 125th Street service would be largely local and wouldn't carry that many passengers. Most commuters would benefit equally or more from crosstown lines in the business districts.
But it's a very creative and useful suggestion. I hope MTA considers it in future.
>>True. And I'm not sure that they would have to be connected at all!They could just run a completely automated crosstown line. It seems to me that all those IND-style connections end up slowing things down as trains negotiate the curves and wait for clearance.<<
And it's much faster to get off, walk to another platform and wait for a transfer? I agree, A crosstown line would be beneficial. Why not have the local turn off at 125th/2nd av., run across town and then hook up to CPW lines in between 125/135 stations? Then, when the local gets back to 2nd av./125th st, it has it's own local tracks, IRT-style, (just like 125th on Lex, express and local never have to cross)
>>Anyway, while worthwhile, 125th Street service would be largely local and wouldn't carry that many passengers. Most commuters would benefit equally or more from crosstown lines in the business districts.<<
Have you forgotten the 63rd tunnel connection? Loads of people transfer in the dwntwn direction at 51st and 60th st from queens. Now, you have a 'one-seat' line down the east side and up into queens!
[And it's much faster to get off, walk to another platform and wait for a transfer?]
No, but you can't "hard wire" the subway to satisfy every traveller! Ultimately, it's a grid, and some people will have to transfer; so the question becomes which solution will benefit the most people. As I understand it, the MTA's studies favor the Bronx, and that makes a lot of sense. It's a case of a few people making a 1-1/2 minute (average during rush hour) transfer vs. many people doing the same.
"Anyway, while worthwhile, 125th Street service would be largely local and wouldn't carry that many passengers. Most commuters would benefit equally or more from crosstown lines in the business districts."
WHAT JOSH?! WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR FACTS FROM MAN?! ARE YOU AGAINST HARLEM OR SOMETHING..... hmmmm. ALRIGHT! LET ME NOT GO THERE.
Have you ever walked on 125th Street before (maybe your too scared too). The traffic flow is enormous. SO enormous it might have you screeming. Knowing you, you probably would. Anyway, the 125th Street line is the best proposal I heard on this site. JOSH!
N Broadway Line
["Anyway, while worthwhile, 125th Street service would be largely local and wouldn't carry that many passengers. Most commuters would benefit equally or more from crosstown lines in the business districts."
WHAT JOSH?! WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR FACTS FROM MAN?! ARE YOU AGAINST HARLEM OR SOMETHING..... hmmmm. ALRIGHT! LET ME NOT GO THERE.
Have you ever walked on 125th Street before (maybe your too scared too). The traffic flow is enormous. SO enormous it might have you screeming. Knowing you, you probably would. Anyway, the 125th Street line is the best proposal I heard on this site. JOSH!]
Sorry, but I'm here to discuss subways, not to be accused of bigotry or cowardice. If you want to discuss facts and logic and argue about proposals, fine; otherwise, I ask that you keep your insults to yourself.
Don't even bother arguing with N Racist Line.
Everybody knows what you called me. And it wasn't coming from a non prejudice person. It was coming from you because I spoke up for that poor homeless black woman.
You, like so many people overlooked this woman's background. But I bet you didn't overlooked that white student background who shot all those people in California?
Double standard. That's all!
Since the media isn't controlled by black people, this woman's background was never displayed. She was villified and character assassinated in the media because this woman was black! PERIOD!
When those kids "rapped" (that's what they was accused of, but the fact is, the medical examiners found her boyfriends sperm inside her) that white woman, they were called animals, and a wolf pack (which means out of control animals). Nothing about their background was ever mentioned. On top of that, the mainstream media (code word for white control propaganda), already indicted these youth without substantial evidence that they even did the crime.
This wasn't an indictment of just these youths. This was a message to all white citizens to mistrust black young people.
I said what I needed to say about this subject. And if you reply, I will ignore you. If a similar matter comes up, I will address it like any other subject on this board. You have no right to castrate me for voicing an oppinion on a subject I feel dear too.
Your not in that woman's shoes. You don't know what brought on that situation. All you know (whatever you got through the "mainstream media) is that a black woman stabbed a white victim. You don't know the background of this homeless woman. And you don't care about anyone who looks like this homessless woman.
That's enough. Your really bringing out my emotions. I thought this mess was over. I wanted to see if they was some simplethetic people on this board. Unfortunately, they wasn't, except one response I appreciate dearly.
Not to disrespect the founder of this board, I will not respond to this topic anymore.
N Broadway Line
Rename the thread, then!
Arti
HIGH SPEED MOVING WALKING IN AN EXTREMELY CROWDED SUBWAY? Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
"And while I agree that it's more important to connect the Second Avenue subway to the Bronx than to run across 125th Street, I like the idea of a 125th Street crosstown too."
Where in the Bx should this new line go? Please don't tell me replacing something, because I will feel very uncomfortable with this answer.
As for the 125th Street Crosstown, to me, that's the best option available. The second best option would be to build an elevated roe across 3rd Avenue. And my last idea goes to the unused "old" boston railroad roe up to Dyre Avenue. I wouldn't mind replacing the #5 (unlike the #6) because of the configuration problems b/t the #5 and #2 LOCAL.
N Broadway
>>Where in the Bx should this new line go? Please don't tell me replacing something, because I will feel very uncomfortable with this answer.<<
How about this: Local from 2nd. av goes crosstown, while express goes to bx. on pelham or dyre.
That's Fine J.
N Bwy
[How about this: Local from 2nd. av goes crosstown, while express goes to bx. on pelham or dyre.]
I think that makes a lot of sense myself.
[HIGH SPEED MOVING WALKING IN AN EXTREMELY CROWDED SUBWAY? Hmmmmmmmmmmm.]
Why not? AFAIK there are no safety issues, if that's what you're concerned about--the speed of the walkway slows to a crawl at the ends.
[Where in the Bx should this new line go? Please don't tell me replacing something, because I will feel very uncomfortable with this answer.]
Not sure why you say that -- the #6 strikes me as the obvious choice. Hooking it up to the Second Avenue would provide a capacity increase on both the 4 and the 6, though not the 2 and the 5. Then, if you had the money, you could run a line up the MN ROW and hook it into the 241st St. spur.
Where does the old Boston Railroad ROW run, and could you realistically put a subway on it?
>>Why not? AFAIK there are no safety issues, if that's what you're concerned about--the speed of the walkway slows to a crawl at the ends.<<
What the......
How do you propose slowing a continous walkway? It's basically one long peice of metal with joints.
Imagine!
Arti
[What the......
How do you propose slowing a continous walkway? It's basically one long peice of metal with joints.]
Heh -- that's the fun part! One way is to use an archimedes screw with a higher pitch at the ends: the walkway consists of plates that ride on the screw thread. IIRC correctly they used one of them in London for many years. And one of the large Japanese companies sells variable speed walkways, but I don't have the URL any more.
Let's not forget that we are talking about 125th Street station. It has 2 levels with 2 island platforms. If they were to build them parallel or runderneath, I highly doubt that there are going to be more than one or two connections. This would not differ that much from the station being perpendicular.
Arti
[Let's not forget that we are talking about 125th Street station. It has 2 levels with 2 island platforms. If they were to build them parallel or runderneath, I highly doubt that there are going to be more than one or two connections. This would not differ that much from the station being perpendicular.]
Depends on how they do it. If they built it like West 4th (which I was just yapping at the other day, go figure) they wouldn't have that problem.
But I think I'd favor a safe and reasonably economical compromise, with maybe four passages--that would mean that on average you'd be less than one car length from an escalator, and you'd only have to walk it when you left a train. One or two (depending on the station and street positions, I don't have an accurate map) passages would continue on and take you to Metro North . . .
Josh.
Don't worry, New Yorkers are use to walking.
N Broadway Line
"-Many more transfers will be subway to subway than Metro North to subway and there's much less walking/congestion when the platforms parallel one another"
How do you know that? Have you did some study on passenger flow to justify your oppinions?
If they was a crosstown service along 2nd Avenue, not only would they be plenty of transfers b/t subway, but Metro North as well. I know this to be fact, because I use to use that 125th Street station. Believe me, they will be plenty of potential passengers passengers transfering to the new 2nd Avenue line if ever built in this configuation (W/E).
N Broadway Line
Astoria
["-Many more transfers will be subway to subway than Metro North to subway and there's much less walking/congestion when the platforms parallel one another"
How do you know that? Have you did some study on passenger flow to justify your oppinions?]
Somebody mentioned the MTA's study here already, and if that weren't enough compare MN ridership to the ridership on the Lexington Avenue.
In fact, I doubt people will transfer from the MN at 125th St to the Second Avenue if they can avoid it. Why get on a crowded local when you can take the MN nonstop to GCT nd walk or ride only a few stops on the Lex? It will benefit some at the fringes of the business district, but that's a minority.
For those who do transfer, though, I advocate that quick transfer via walkway and escalator, which would really take no longer for the average passenger than the a N/S-E/W transfer would. And I advocate economical subway-style superexpress service on the existing MN and Amtrak routes too, which would further increase the utility of the 125th Street link. Both stations should in effect become a single transportation complex.
Given the relatively few MN passengers, it seems to me that a pedestrian passage using a moving walkway is the logical choice for a transfer and would actually be faster than a N/S-E/W transfer (because of the moving walkway).
Which would you prefer, a quick transfer b/t the second and lexington avenue lines. Or, a slightly longer transfer to a second avenue line that connects to all the N/S lines in Manhattan?
If your answer is a quicker tranfer, than your not looking at the larger benefits.
As bad as everyone hates that long transfer b/t the A-C-E and N-R-S 1-2-3-9-7 lines, it is one of the most popular transfers in the city. WHY IS THAT JOSH? Because people find it more convient to walk a little more than having to transfer multiple times.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
[Which would you prefer, a quick transfer b/t the second and lexington avenue lines. Or, a slightly longer transfer to a second avenue line that connects to all the N/S lines in Manhattan?]
That's a valid point. But I don't see them as mutually exclusive, and given a choice between 125th St. and a connection to the Bronx the connection to the Bronx wins out because it benefits more people, provides a better flow, and is more likely to be built given that it doesn't require tunneling and alleviates overcrowding on the Lex.
Now if I had the money to build a 125th St. crosstown line, I'd just run it across town and leave it at that. Convenient transfer like the L, and the N/S trains could continue on through. Also, you wouldn't be wasting capacity--I doubt that you would need 8 car trains.
[As bad as everyone hates that long transfer b/t the A-C-E and N-R-S 1-2-3-9-7 lines, it is one of the most popular transfers in the city. WHY IS THAT JOSH? Because people find it more convient to walk a little more than having to transfer multiple times.]
AFAIK, it's popular because it leads to the Port Authority Bus Terminal. And turning the Second Avenue would decrease the number of transfers only for those who happened to be traveling West to East from the West Side of Upper Manhattan and the West Bronx and didn't have convenient transfers further down, a fairly small number.
I can't find the postings now, but we have talked about the conversion of the Pelham line to a 2nd Avenue extension - the MTA itself discusses this in the "MESA" study. Can anybody confirm the situation regarding conversion of Dual-Contract IRT lines to B division standards? I've often heard about cutting back platform edges, but what else would be involved in getting the clearances right? Would only 60' cars fit, or could 67' or 75' cars be used too?
Wasn't the Astoria line converted from IRT to BMT about fifty years ago?
The basic structures are fine clearance-wise, but IRT and B-Division signals are not compatible. On the Astoria Line conversion in 1949 all the masts had to be moved and trip arms changed over. B-Division operations require about 80 additional feet of platform length and about 10 inches off the edge. Heightwise they are identical (top of rail to floor).
Length limitations are dependent on curve profiles. I doubt that was ever studied. One would think 60 footers wouldn't require much modification, but 75-foot likely would. Any idea how much of the Pelham Line would be converted?
Here in Boston we have three entirely different loading profiles, none identical in width, length or height.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass,
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The plan is still very tentative, but the MTA proposal - I would call it a concept at this point - would be to convert the entire Pelham line from 125th Street to the Pelham terminal. In 1968, they considered converting only from about Whitlock Avenue to Pelham Bay. The Second Avenue line would have come up the New Haven right-of-way, with a branch onto the elevated structure. I assume Hunts Point Avenue would have been the terminal for the Lexington Avenue locals. Back then, of course, they only had to worry about 60-foot cars.
When the Astoria line was converted, was regular service maintained, at least during daytime hours?
Story I heard from a well-versed ERA member years ago was that all those Dual Contract lines were built to BMT clearances, it was brought to my attention that the platforms on the (subway) lines had metal strips added to the edges because the concrete platforms were made to fit the wider cars.
Since it was 67 foot cars on the BMT during the years of construction (World War I era) you could assume the lines would handle 67 foot cars. As for 75 foot many areas of the IND-BMT had to have some clearances improved for them. IIRC it was usually near switches or tight curves due to end and center excesses (overhangs) but otherwise the tunnels cleared them nicely.
On the same story a friend of mine back around 1970 had a list of prospective routes for the future 2nd Ave. line. There was a Y train...here we go again Fred! Sea Beach-2nd Ave-Pelham. Sound interesting? You bet. Hope it would be an Express in Brooklyn..on 4th Ave that is.
Do they still have any IRT signals left on the Astoria line. Last time I worked there would have been 1977 and they still had them. Home signals still showing the old IRT (essentially almost a national standard once) signal aspects. Like Green over red , nonexistent on the newer BMT-IND type.
Better yet, why not run it along 125 St. under the Lenox and 8th Avenue Subways and this way everyone can use it? Also, a lot of people live near and ride busses across 125 St. This would be a very convenient line for very many people.
How come on the SEPTA N5 and on some trains air from the brakes is not heard releasing?
Ads have run in Los Angeles, New York, Dallas, Chicago, and D.C.
Front page story in Wednesday's Boston Globe.
I've seen that ad on the LIRR and the subway. I found it a little suggestive but nothing unusual.
As the old statement goes:
BANNED IN BOSTON !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Man ... sure hope Victoria's Secret doesn't have any stores around there or mail out any catalogs. Bostonians would be dropping like flies if they ever saw (gasp!) the "wonderbra" ... heh.
An interesting scene unfolded before me last weekend. The 17th Street exit of Union Square on the 'N' and 'R' has original three-pronged turnstiles that are fenced off with ceiling to floor gates a few inches inside the fare control and unavailable on weekends, while there are a couple of high-wheel Metrocard-only turnstiles nearby.
A woman who obviously wasn't watching what she was doing swept her Metrocard through the three-pronger, pushed through and was stopped in her tracks by the gate. She had to push back out, and angrily discovered that her last fare had been deducted.
If a series of turnstiles are fenced off, shouldn't they be made inoperative, with the red light showing, like the way many turnstiles at busy stations are during rush hour? If this were the case, it wouldn't have accepted the card, and she wouldn't have been able to push through.
One could say that she should have noticed the gates, but it's sheer fantasy to expect people to notice anything, witness how they ignore GO notices on platforms. BUT, whoever closed off the turnstiles should have turned them off as well- or do two different people perform these tasks?
Some token purists insist that the TA is replacing more and more classic turnstiles with Card-only high-wheelers in order to harrass people into using the card.
It all makes for a fascinating moral dilemma on level with "Should the man put the seat back up, or should the woman look before she sits?"
One could say that she should have noticed the gates, but it's sheer fantasy to expect people to notice anything, witness how they ignore GO notices on platforms. BUT, whoever closed off the turnstiles should have turned them off as well- or do two different people perform these tasks?
Not noticing a floor-to-ceiling gate is rather more unlikely than not noticing a printed GO poster. But I suppose some people do go around in a daze, so the turnstiles should've been turned off in that case.
At least the woman didn't go through a high-wheel entry only to encounter a locked gate ...
It all makes for a fascinating moral dilemma on level with "Should the man put the seat back up, or should the woman look before she sits?"
A well-informed woman wouldn't have that problem.
Happened the other way at Queens Plaza, the part time entrance (not open weekend) has the turnstiles blocked on the entrance side. Some poor idiot went through (exited) smake into the gate. She couldn't figure how to jump the turnstile back into fare control. She was screaming that she wouldn't pay another fare.
I exited through the brand new (x2) HEET's.
>>>If a series of turnstiles are fenced off, shouldn't they be made inoperative, with the red light showing, like the way many turnstiles at busy stations are during rush hour? If this were the case, it wouldn't have accepted the card, and she wouldn't have been able to push through. <<<
No, the idiot "designers" at the TA should have the gates on the OUTside of the turnstiles. I have seen self-absorbed people get "trapped" going out at closed turnstiles but at least they didn't have a ride deducted from thier farecard. Someone once explained (I think it was subwaybuff) that they cannot shut the turnstile system down when an exit is closed to to "software glitches" and the problems it would create on reboot.
Peace,
ANDEE
Right. If the gates are on the outside (the side where the customer would enter) then we'd have a greater problem-- customers "trapped" and they'd have to jump to get back in.
I also suggest you read my other response in this thread.
But jumping or "backcocking" to get back in is a better option than losing a fare. Or, maybe the TA should put gates on BOTH sides of closed turnstiles like they used to.
I once helped a lady who got trapped going out. I swiped her back in with my unlimited farecard.
Peace,
ANDEE
I've done that.
See my other post Andee, it happened the other way at Queens Plaza >G<
Your idea is a good one, however rules prohibit us from closing turnstiles when a booth is closed (having the red light show.)
If we close all turnstiles, often times they will not come back up when the booth reopens. When that happens the computer's toklen amounts and actual tokens differ resulting in a booth audit. When MetroCard first came out we did close turnstiles as you suggested and numerous techincal problems arose.(SOURCE: Official AFC Bulletin.)
SUGGESTION: Any time a customer loses their fare and can not enter they should immediately go to an open booth at the station and ask the Station Agent to check their card. If we can verify that a fare was just deducted (via our computer inside the booth) then we'd buzz them in. If they dont want to do that then contact MetroCard Customer Services at 212- MetroCard or 1-800-MetroCard.
Or maybe they should fix those problems with closing turnstiles.
This same thing happened to me once because the gate was in an in-between posotion and even though I swiped my card, the gate didn't move because it was out of position. When I put the gate int he right position, it didn't let me through because it thought no card was swiped. I wasn't very happy paying an additional fare, and there was no convenient open booth or phone to call. (And what would the 1-800-Metrocard people be able to do for me over the phone anyhow??)
--Mark
Simple solution, the TA should demand that the software/hardware perform correctly, as specified in the contract. It obviously does not demand this of thier vendor and is happy with half-assed performing equipment.
Peace,
ANDEE
When you say an "original 3-pronged turnstile" I guess you don't
literally mean one of the low-style old Perry token units but
a modern Metrocard-equipped turnstile?
I'll admit that it happened to me last time I was there. It was a Saturday and we were going on the 1 at WTC, and I went thru a closed turnstile right into the gate. How embarassing it was. I'm a person who would say that whoever does this should be paying attention, so I won't make any excuses for myself.
Don't they chain the HEETs when they're closed? They do that at my stop every night from 11PM to 7AM.
They do chain the HEETs but sometimes they are chained incorrectly and people get stuck. I have freed people stuck in high wheels.
There is a spur off the main branch of LIRR just after it crosses the LIE. This spur goes into the Brookhaven labs. Is it used by any passenger or freight trains, or is it abandoned?
This is the abandoned spur to the Montauk line at Eastport. It was the original route to the south fork and Sag Harbor (not Montauk, that was later) until the LIRR bought the South Side RR (Babylon line) and extended it from Patchogue to Eastport. The connection continued to operate for a few years, including some Montauk to Greenport service! (eat your heart out S92)
LIRR History by (SubTalk's own) Bob Andersen.
Today Greenport to anything service would be great... West Hempstead has one track with no passing sidings and manages better than 2 trains a day.
This is the abandoned spur to the Montauk line at Eastport. It was the original route to the south fork and Sag Harbor (not Montauk, that was later) until the LIRR bought the South Side RR (Babylon line) and extended it from Patchogue to Eastport. The connection continued to operate for a few years, including some Montauk to Greenport service! (eat your heart out S92)
That's not what he meant. There is a separate, still-extant spur that runs off the Greenport line into the grounds of the Brookhaven National Lab. It is not used for passenger services, and as far as I know never has been. I don't know if it still sees freight service or is disused.
NY&A does use the spur to deliver hoppers to Brookhaven, and other materials. However it is rare.
According to track maps I have, the spur to Brookhaven Labs also used to serve Camp Upton, both during WWI and WWII. There were special Sunday "visitor trains" for passengers during WWII. I don't know when the passenger service ended - I assume after the war was over.
It was used for freight for Brookhaven Labs, but I don't know if it is still active.
That's right. So many Veromters want to get out of their cars and onto the rails and weekend service has been added and there is a planned service extention to the towns of Middlebury and Vergennes.
Does the service have a website?
For schedules, see the Vermont Agency of Transportation's website at:
http://www.vermontrail.org/rail/schedule.htm
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
So the VAT runs the VCR?
Mind if I ask where you saw this news?
Rode it earlier in the year. Appreciate their commitment, though the start was underwhelming. Less than 100 people per day, though the geography of the road system (if not expanded) will slowly make the Flyer more and more attractive. Interstate to the north and west, two lane road to the south (where the rail goes). Hope they stick with it.
Make that interstate to the north and EAST. Lake to the west.
When the eastbound Amtrak Three Rivers arrived in Akron at 6:00 AM it was little more than 1 hour late (the e/b trains are usually pretty much on time) when the two engines, P42-9DCs, Amtrak 7 and Amtrak 89, suffered a problem with the electrical system. The Centralized National Operations Center in Wilmington, Delaware told them to kep going as far as they could get and this turned out to be about 1 city block. CSX helped to shove the train back into the station and busses were called in. I believe that at this point all the people got off, but CSX wanted to move its now 2 hour late train off its main line so they cut C40-8W 7390 off an Intermodal train and that took over pulling the train. When the train reached Conway PA, they needed a Cab Signal equipped locomotive to lead the train so NS provided B40-8 4811 to pull in addition w/ C40-8W 7390. At 2:00 PM the train arrived at Pittsburg about 6 hours late where C40-8W 7390 was removed. Once on the Pittsburg line the train activated a dragging equipment detector and was delayed even further. The train arrived at Harrisburg more than 8 hours late and 4811 was replaced w/ an engine from the Keystone pool.
I just went by them and it seems to need a lot of work done.
Does anyone think that they will be done on time?
They're not supposed to finish. The rehab work will continue until 2003, they'll just return the stations to usable condition on March 19. And if they miss that deadline by too much, they may as well finish the uptown sides completely and not bother with the downtown, the DOT clock is counting down to the inevitable definite moment the swap will occur and by then local tracks must be returned to use or chaos with 50 TPH on one track.
You gotta admit though, the tiling on the uptown side is better than the stuff on the downtown side.
50 TPH on one track -- COOL!
No - CHAOS!!
Ok, I've returned from hybernation for just this one issue.
The R110A NTT Cars fate is unknown right now, word is they are suppose to be scrapped however, there is still the possible these boys may get thier required replacement parts and return to passenger service. The R110As are still at 239th Yard and have NOT be moved to 207th.
The R110B NTT Cars WILL be returned to (A) line service, once Cars #3007-3009 recieve thier new Compressors. For the meantime 3001-3006 is doing very spuradic service on the (C) line in a random scheduled appearance.
Hope this information stops are myths about the R110 Series.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Who on Earth will just scrap the R-110A's? Send them over to the
7 Train and it will find Better use there. Back in 1997. My dad told me that the R-110B was running the E Train. Anybody got a chance to go on the R-110A and the R-110B?
Dominick Bermudez.
R-110a's will be scrapped, because they need to be made compatible in order to continue running on the IRT. the 7 runs 11 car trains, not 10. Putting them on the 7 would be only good because the 7 would finally be able to run something besides a redbird. Better idea: start putting R-62A's from the 4 on the 7.
R-110B never ran on the E. It was almost always operated out of 207th. (is it in pitkin now? I don't think so). A and C have operated the R-110B. I rode R-110B. Slick ride, it's pretty quiet and smooth. I also rode on R-142's. Same deal basically.
The R110B did make a run up to Jamaica Yard once.
Excuse me for questioning your info, but I saw these 110As getting moved with my own eyes. R-62As were being used as tow motors for each 5 car set. Are you saying that I didn't see any kind of movement taking place? Or are you saying that they were moved back to 239th St?
Check my posts from last week.
Also, what would be the purpose of keeping dead cars at 239th Street when the TA needs the track space for the Redbirds/R-142s?
-Stef
"R62A's were being used as tow motors..."
Impossible: Presently, all R-62A's are hooked into 5 car sets.
Go back and read my posts from last week. A working 5 car R-62A set was being used to tow a dead 5 car train of R-110As on two separate occasions. The 62As were doing a lot of the pulling and some pushing and as Transit Colleague tells me, who shall remain nameless, looped South Ferry to head uptown.
Don't tell me it's impossible. Again someone is saying I didn't see what I saw....
All you need to know is in order for the 62As and 110As to be coupled together, a coupler adapter was used on the 110A to make coupling possible.
-Stef
Don't ride the 42st shuttle much, do ya.
Nevuh. I'm 16, not much reason to ride it.
Same age as me. I've no reason to ride 95% of the transit I do. Yet, I've either gone to or through every station on The MAP with exception to stations east of Mastic Shirley on the Montauk and the Danbury, New Canaan, and Waterbury CDOT branches.
As for the shuttle, it runs 2 3 car R62As, and one 4 car 62A, all from Livonia (3). Never a scratched window since before going to shuttle duty they replace them all. The Track 4 shuttle does not open the last door since it is about 10 feet into the tunnel.
I've rode most of the Subway, but not anything else.
Nevuh. I'm 16, not much reason to ride it.
What does that have to do with anything?
Well, when you get a little older and can ride the trains at a free will without your parents permission then you'll discover alot of things in the system that you obviously don't know now.
He's sixteen. He can ride at free will.
If not, I don't know what kind of fascists his parents are.
OTOH, I don't understand why he doesn't have much reason to ride it at sixteen. I rode the entire subway when I was sixteen.
For the record, I can ride the subway at free will. But, there are lots of other things that keep me from just getting on and going all the time.
I'm 14 and I've rode the whole system except the 2/5 between East 180 Street and Wakefield-242 Street and the 6 Line north of Parkchester-East 177 Street. And the 63 Street Tunnel Connection. Do that some time soon.
Do them both and ride the Bx12 so as not to waste time.
Hmmm. It appears there's a larger group of minors here than I originally thought.
Stop saying minor. It's a disgusting, derogatory term.
If there is ever a term against youth that reaches the level of "nigger" it should be minor.
Hmmm. OK then, I didn't realize there were this many kids on the site. Happy?
Yeah. That's fine.
Um, not all the R62s are in permenant coupled 5 Car sets nor ever will be. And here is why......
Presently there is 3 trains of R62As running the 42nd Street (S). Trains 1 and 3 are 3-car R-62A trains while Train 2 is a 4-car R62A Train. None of these are in numerical order or permenantly coupled, as a matter of fact these cars change almost on a frequent basis.
The (3) train features a few transverse cab cars but that are not in permenant 5-Car sets. The cars on the 3 will not be permenantly couple into 5-Car sets for this reason....These cars are going to be the cars that make the 11th Car on the 7 Line once R62As from the Pelham line. Yes the (3) train is suppose to eventually see R142 cars and return to 10 cars. That is from the option order which will be taken from what I understand. So in the meantime enjoy these few railfan window available R62s. The only 5-Car set R62s are on the (1), (4), and (6).
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
3 is supposed to see r-142's?!?! THAT'S BLASPHEMOUS!!!!!
Seriously though, i always though that shuttle cars were r-62's (this proves that no matter how much i learn, i'll always be a moron)
Na man, there is always something to learn, life is a constant learning experience!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Well, you're not too far alone on the R62s and R62As. The only obvious differences I can see from them are the car number orders and the transverse cabs.
look harder inside the interior and exterior and sound and you will notice a difference. i will give one, the R-62 has speakers on its extierior to blast the ignorant passengers with needful information when the doors are open. the R-62A doesn'thave such a feature. for the interior, you will have to scan every inch of the AC at each end of the cars, you will see a difference. also the R-62A is a little bit brighter (my opinion on that)
Been on the 3 train lately? All cars there are still singles.
ENOUGH!!!!! And, you have just earned yourself a smack!!! 3 trains are r-62's. I was referring to r-62A's. HAAA!!! i'm not the only one with egg on my face now!!! (Just kidding around)
Actually, i hope you was kidding about the R62s on the 3 cause those are R-62As! I really hope you are kidding, not after that 2 paragraph post I made to you!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Arggh. I'm a freaking idiot. I've been confusing r-62's with 62A's. Now, I feel like a moron.....AGAIN!!!!
Don't worry, they're hard to tell apart unless you memorize the numbers. Same loaf of bread almost, different baker.
All of the R-62s are on the 4. Kind of like the R-10s on the A. One fleet assigned exclusively to one line.
Yep, I saw it too. My friend who is a motor instructor made that move. So the cars indeed did go to 207 Street. That doesn't mean that they didn't come back to 239th Street.
Ok, just got word that the cars are no longer at 239th Street Yard, they were moved. As per information given by R62A Cars with coupler adapters HOWEVER the cars are not at 207th, or not thier yet as of today!
Trevor Logan
No problem friend.... It's curious as to what will ultimately happen to them. Sending them to Yonkers for rebuilding doesn't sound like a bad idea.
-Stef
Was that all that was needed for R-110Bs 3007-3009 to get them back in service? I thought they were being cannibalized for parts to keep the other two sets running.
I do remember seeing some mosaic (as opposed to dot matrix) signs on some of the cars kept in service. Weren't the mosaic signs entirely on cars 3007-3009 originally?
On Friday I will be making my first Solo trip as a T/O. I am 322 on the "R" out of Cityhall. I make my first trip at 5:11pm from Whitehall Street to Queens. If any one wants to see how a Rookie on his first day Oprates just meet me there and ride with me.
Robert
Are you sure you want a bunch of obnoxious foamers on your first run? ;). Best of luck!
Congtatulations to you as well, and best of luck on your maiden run!
Peace, Thomas :-)
I'm assuming that was meant for Robert, but I can use the luck, too; Jeff H & Lou from Brooklyn can attest to that ;).
I'll bring a bugle with me and will warn the platform as he rolls into each station. Long short, long short ... heh.
Do you have a preference to equipment? R-32s vs R-46s?
Congrats on your first run, bro! Here's hoping it's a quiet and peaceful run ... don't forget to punch properly and make sure your lineups are where you want to go. :)
Good Luck!
I hope you have 2 good trips. I remember my first day on my own. I was the 6:29AM Van Courtlandt to South Ferry. Every time I looked to close tha rear section of the train I always seen the headlights of the train behind.
Hopefully you'll get an R32, so you'll have the two handed controller.
Maybe I'll check your train out if the snow doesn't stop me (yes, they're talking about a little more snow).
Well good luck, and here's hoping you're not stuck behind a Hippo N on Broadway! :-)
Best of luck Bob!
Bill "Newkirk"
Yah, remember all the discussion here about the Court St. Punch hehe!!
And in the imortal words of Drain Dude "A wrong lineup can not be given, only taken",
This TO wanabee also wishes you the very best of luck.
Mr t__:^)
This means you'll be going through Midtown a little after the heart of the rush hour. The Financial District largely lets out at 4:00, so you'll miss that, but the big crowds will hit from 34th on up. Be prepared for long dwell time at Lexington, especially if you're on an R32 that a lot of people will assume is an 'N'.
If there's no 'G' crossing in front of you going into Queens Plaza, you should have pretty smooth sailing the rest of the way.
Courage-
May the Force be with you!
--Mark
I was a nervous wreck when I was turned loose on the road for my first trip. and still uptight for a few months.Then it reached the pint where you do things automatically and sometimes not even conscious of what you're doing. sometimes over 200 stops a day, up and down the same line 3,4,5 times; you'll see what I mean.
My first day; the D train, the upper half had been home teritory for work. Right after Chrystie, they'd changed the routes, and that was when my first trip occurred. Below B'way Laff had been railfan territory only for me but no real problem [of course we had been qualified on all lines].First run R32, then a round trip on an R1-9 [I considered myself lucky!] then last was another R32. On that trip I heard some railfans outside the cab say "this isn't a BMT motorman. " Right, I came from the IND, which were supposedly faster runners than the BMT people. And that was on my first day out! So nervous or not guess I didn't do too badly.
From one RTO brother to the next: Nothing but luck to you, man. You might be nervous for the first trip but dont worry it'll go away. Just dont live up to the "R"arely part of the R. :):)
Thank for all the words of luck. I am looking forard to it.
Robert
Unfortunately I won't be able to catch your 5:11pm R train today, again though, the best of luck! Anybody else who goes tell us what it
was like.
I hope you get an R32 (if that's what you want). :-)
I got all R46 yesterday, and for what I understand there have not been an R32 on the R for a few weeks already. As for what I would like I realy don't care as long as it is not an R44. The cab I just so dame small that they are very cramped for me. I also just found out that I have the R on Monday out of 71st.
Robert
Amusing though, isn't it? The one person who could kill EVERYBODY is relegated to a damned little broom closet and all the guff they can take. Shows ya the priorities in civil service. Bravo! from someone who did it for a while both at the front and the middle. :)
You will more then likely stay on the R Line for your first 2 weeks. Then spend a month in that District at least thats how It is for Conductors.
I spent my first 2 weeks on the No.1/9 Line and then a Month on District 1 (1,2,3,7 Lines). I am still mostly West side but I see the East Side once a week.
Saw plenty of R32's on the R today. Since there's no E and that's where they usually run, they ran on the R.
Today our instructors decided to let us get some hands on experience. We went over to track 49 (the other group went to 47) in Jamaica Yard. There were a couple of R-32 hold cars (4-car trains) being used for parts and we were shown step by step how to climb on, turn on control cut out, insert reverser key, charge up, etc. Then we each took turns moving about 600 ft. (a bit past 10 car train next to us), and stopping at various points (easy with the train next to us. We usually started at 3 cars from end, rather than two, as the rule says, since there was snow and rust on the rails. We did the end facing the bumping block, then went to the other end, moving it up to the first dwarf signal right before the tracks begin merging.
After lunch, we all did uncoupling and coupling, and pumping and releasing the handbrake (located on the outside of the storm door)
Pretty intersting. I was anxious, making it hard to remember all the steps, and as the various control and brake "points" were not marked, that also made it tricky. Especially, since it felt like there was an extra "point" in the control before "Switching" (I kept moving it there, and the train would roll backwards since the track is on a slight grade, until I moved it to the "next" point). This extra point was from the old gears inside the control drum, or something like that. On uncoupling, it was tricky to stop the reverse move at one foot. Most people went way over that, and I went a little bit under that (a "surgeon's cut")
The digital end sign is controlled by a single knob (like an old radio) with all 36 alpanumeric characters, plus blank and test. With our side sign crank, I had time to get the correct readings. Signs seem to be different ages, with slight differences. Older ones use the Akzidenz-Grotesk font (same as number boards, etc.), and newer ones use Helvetica (same as station signs, etc)
JFK Express
Wash Hts/8th Av/Fulton
Concourse/8th Av/Fulton
8th Av/Fulton
Rockaway Shuttle
Queens/8th Av
Queens/6th Av/Culver
6th Av/Culver *
Bklyn/Queens Crosstown
Queens/Bway/4th Av
Queens Blvd/Broadway
63rd St. Shuttle
Astoria/Bway/Sea Beach **
Astoria/Broadway
Bway/West End
<> Astoria/Broadway/West End
Broadway/Brighton
Broadway/Brighton
Concourse/6th Av/Brighton
Concourse/6th Av
6th Av/Brighton
6th Av/West End
Wash Hts/6th Av/West End
West End Shuttle ***
Wash Hts/6th Av
Wash Hts/8th Av
6th Avenue Shuttle
via 6th Av.
Myrtle/Nassau
Myrtle Shuttle
Myrtle/Nassau/West End
Nassau/4th Av
--------------------
Jamaica/Nassau
<> Jamaica/Nassau/Brighton
14th Street/Canarsie
Franklin Av Shuttle
--------------------
--------------------
--------------------
--------------------
--------------------
Special
* This may be a new addition as F service (midnights) that did not go to Queens began in 1995 (they used to call it the Q before that)
**older signs, it's N, then R, S, etc.
*** I really remember a yellow West End Shuttle on the sign I had years ago, but it wan't on the ones I saw today.
These also weren't there, but I have seen on other signs.
Not in Service
Shuttle
North Motor3702
South Motor
3630
Congrats and best of luck as you earn your handles!!!
-Peace, Thomas :-)
P.S.: oh, BTW- how is Rakim? I was upset when you to split up! Just kidding. . .But seriously, good luck!! -Thomas Again
Well, if you went home with clean drawers, then it was a GOOD day. Heh. You remind me of my first day under power, except that I did mine at Coney. Wonder if they still have the outer loop with the short platform after all these years. They'd have you run around the outer loop and you had to stop at the marker there.
Welcome aboard, bro! :)
you are truly part of the few, the proud, and the lucky ones to get the controls on a subway car. I tip my hat to you bro!
--Jonathan Cifuentes
Who are your Instrutor. Also good luck from someone who just go out of Shoolcar and is know going on his own no Friday. Training only get better, wait untill your on the road and you doing 35-40mphs and they tell you to stop in a station. Know that is fun the first time.
Robert
Please share some of your experiences. I will be starting training and would love to hear your stories. PLease e-mail me at momo1866@yahoo.com
Thanks!!
It is interesting to read about all the steps in operating a subway train. It isn't as simple as you think.
BMTJeff
I know that it is not the simple. I have been doing it for five mouth now in training and starting today I am on my own.
Robert
I would love to hear about your training and experiences.
If/when you have time can you please e-mail me (momo1866@yahoo.com)
as I will be going through training and would like to know what to expect.
I started my training in January. True, it's not easy, but the hardest part is jumping through the hoops that the bureaucracy of the MTA set in our way.
Like what?
Was wondering if anyone knew how was that signal test that they gave? Was it hard or what? A lot of new T/O's are concern about that test. Lots of these new T/O's don't have a job to fall back on so it understandable that their concern.
They were sighted at Unionport Yard today. I hadn't seen an R-142 come up since I started working with the TA, but I imagine that 6466-70 have been on the property for the last week or two.
I also observed 6404-05. They are clean as of now, but you can tell that they were used as a drawing board for the Artists.
-Stef
On the R142A's there up to car 7350. I seen 7341-7345 at Unionport and 7346-7350 at 239 YD.
I seen car 6405 while on the No.2 Line Monday. That was all marked up.
Thanks for that news. I spotted R-142As, 7331-40 going southbound this evening in a transfer move of sorts, most likely to Westchester Yard. You say you've seen 7341-50, so they are on the property...
-Stef
great! maybe we should make and sign a patiton to get them rolling!
I rode R-142A 7240 last night,it seemed a little quietier than the previous R-142A's if they could soften the lights a little.....hash lighting!!!
interesting. they seem to ride a little softer also, but the R-142A build quality is still shoddy. every last one of them i rode on makes tons of vibrations. enough to start your own rock bands. question for you: the R-142 has not been seen in service in two weeks now. is it possible if you can tell me why?
With all this Sea Beach vs. Brighton "controversy" (ha), Let's stir up some more BMT rivalry.
Culver once was an offshoot of West End. So, why not have a little rivalry between all those West End rebels (who??) and those militant Culver people!!!
I'm gonna say that the Culver is better than West End. It was too great for that puny West End line. That's why it found another way to Manhattan. This has kept it outta that Manhattan-Bridge-go-round. Plus, it has it's own private access to Ave. X/Coney yard. It also avoids that evil station of doom known as DeKalb Ave. Plus, it actually uses that center express track (well..... sometimes). If Those friggin' idiots at the TA would re-open the Church to Bergen express tracks, and run the "V" to Church (and the G), The F would cook the B and M trains. I bet if an F and B leave B'way-Lafayette at the same time that an F exp. would have the B eating dust. Don't even mention an M and F at essex, MFers!!! (sorry 'bout that).
And, all the rest of youse BMT mugs betta watch out! If the F express ever runs again, (peak dir and church to Bergen) it will kill that Q/D train Too! ( Can't touch that Sea Beach Express. If they brought that back. Well, let's say it would be the BMT Killa.)
Maybe I'll change my handle to CrazyCulverExpress. maybe not.
(please excuse me. I don't know what happened to me today.)
Yeh Yeh Yeh, and if the Queen had balls, she would be the King IF, biggest 2 letter word in the English Language
Listen you little puny R-40 worshipping bum! The Culver line still rules!! Unlike your sorry Brighton Line with it's sorry Q trains! You just wait! your day will come! And when it comes, I'll be there to laugh at you. Hahahaha!!!
Actually, the Culver was never better than between 1968 and 1976 with the Slant-40s, if you could get an air-conditioned lead car during the summer for the Culver express run from Jay Street to Kings Highway on the way to Coney Island.
That was back in ye olde days when finding an AC unit as lead car actually was a special event, and the express run looking out the railfan window (especially coming out of the Carroll St. and Church Ave. portals to zoom past Smith-9th and Ditmas) couldn't be beat.
No chance of the railfan windows returning anytime soon unless the R-32s end their lives on the F, but if the subway gods ever decide to bless the B division with enough cars to resume Culver express service, it's the best ride of any of the four lines to Coney Island.
Wait a minute. Is the Culver the F train. I'm now getting confused.
Yes the F is thge Culver The B is West End for now
for now? The B has been on the WestEnd (NewUtrecht Ave) line since the Manhattan Bridge connection was made to 6th Ave (just like the D taking over the QT, which meant Brigton-Tunnel, versus QB which originally meant Brigton-Bridge, but more recently meant Brighton-Broadway, etc..). The F has been going down McDonald Ave since the connetion was made between the IND and old BMT line at Church Ave. Unless you are really old, it has been this way since like forever!
The F began running on the Culver at the same time the B took over on the West End and the D began running on the Brighton. Betwen 1954 and 1967, the D ran on the Culver.
Guess I'm really old! I do remember when the Culver was a BMT service when there were still 3 divisions. Never rode it that way though, neither I nor my family knew where to get it or thought about it. We usually took the Sea Beach or Brighton from Union Square.
The Culver did not go Midtown, only to Chambers Street
You really didn't miss a thing. I take that back; the Culver was a decent train but it wasn't as long as the other Southern Division trains and it didn't go over the Manny B as I remember. And, of course, it was minor league compared to the incomparable Sea Beach.
No, as your Brighton couterpart mentioned it only went to Chambers St.I assume via Montague tunnel and Nassau.But I hadn't found that out until after the IND takeover, and previously had wondered why we never saw the Culver at Union Square! I may be thinking of a different line, but wasn't there a Nassau Loop service once, not that I ever rode it? Leaving DeKalb went via Montague Tunnel and Nassau to Chambers and then thru the presently unused trackage to the south side Manny B and back to DeKalb. I'd guess it was either the Culver or the West End Short Line.
When I think about it I probably didn't miss much..the Montague tunnel route never fascinated me and I assume the Culver in those days was likewise a local on 4th Ave, so guess it wouldn't have been much fun but wish I could add that travel to my archives and memory.That's OK, rode and ran plenty of R1-9 over the Culver as it was later. Only missedout on 3 stops of the old route, having worked West End too [all lines in reality].
Now if we had taken the Culver from Coney Is. I'd have discovered we could ride the whole Lex exp. stretch from Brooklyn Bridge home, or the Bway-7th Ave exp.that once was. Those were my lines of glory! But have to say the Sea Beach Express THAT WAS and the Brighton Express were both the greatest in Brooklyn! Too bad the Brighton exp. required a change of trains to get to Coney. West End and Culver both OK, elevated, but neither were the cannonballs like #1 and #4!
Along with this Bronx kid's stuff longlive the D types!
During Rush Hours from 55-58 They ran 3 Culver Expresses in each direction Express on 4th Ave, over the bridge via Nassau St and returned via Tunnel back to Brooklyn. In PM Visa Versa, but was Express in Both Directions on 4th, otherwise it was just a local. That time used old SIRT Cars
Thanks for the info. Wish I had ridden the SIRT cars on that line. Only did on a shuttle. Seems kind of unlikely with service only as far as 9th Ave, since the Culver had been thru-routed with the D train in Oct. 54. Nice regardless that this type of service was offred that late
Attaboy Big Ed, music to my ears. If I was a millionaire I would try to buy a D train, if it was for sale, buy a nice piece of land, and build some tracks with some Sea Beach like mini-tunnels, which I loved. I would also build a small replica of the Manny B, and end the journey at a mini Coney Island where I would have a hot dog stand, and a snall roller coaster. Then no one would see me for days on end and I relived my childhood from dawn to dusk. Oh yes, one end of the train would have a #1 on it ( for my pal Brighton Beach Bob), and the other would have a #4 for you know who.
In 1954 when the connection between the IND and the Culver was made, it was the D that ran to Coney Island. Prior to 54 the F ran to Brooklyn and the D only to Downtown. In 1954 they switched Southern Terminals. Then when Christie Opened up, the F went to the Culver and the D to Brighton.
The "F" has only served the Culver BMT since 1967. Prior to that, it was the "D".
Your name is right for you LOCO, which in at least 3 languages means CRAZY
It was if until your boy Clinton made it IT.
not to mention the reliablilty and service frequency both directions, I love my Culver line, even if it is local, and the r-46s are kept cleaner then any other R-46s in the system (G, R, E) shit, if they do bring back the express damn, what a line that would be. Plus Transit District 34 does a good job at patroling culver line. Good Job "Force on the Move". oh yea and when they do repairs beyond kings hiway, the F gets layed up and becomes easy to bomb. We dont want that though,
Seven GCW
Wow! Great! For the first time that I can remember, we now appear to have a full , four-way BMT battle royale between the Brighton, Sea Beach, and the often neglected (on this site) Culver elevated line and the West End!:) While Fred and BOB having been hailing their favorite lines for years ad nauseum (very enjoyable posting though!), I cannot even remember anyone on this site with "Culver" in his/her handle (there is a West End TT IIRC).
One other suggestion for all to ponder in this Southern Division face-off: Fourth Ave. subway trunkline vs. the old 5th Ave. elevated in Brooklyn? Vouch for your favorite! All merits of each line open to discussion. Any takers?:) All are invited!!
-cordially,
turnstiles
1. I would have put Culver in my handle, but I liked the one I have better.
2. WestEndExpress had West End in his handle.
3. Somebody's gotta stick up for Culver. Nobody else wants to do it. So why not me, the biggest Culver fan in the world.
4. Battle Royale? More like 'Fodder for Culver line'
I stay away for a while and see what I miss....
Hmm...let's see, about three Brighton trains make it into Manhattan before a B shows up...with all the construction going on over West End, it is even worse...manhattan bound mid day B's are scheduled to arive at 36th St on the 3 at 10 minute intervals, i.e. 9:33, 9:43, etc....they do not make it there until 5 minutes later, i.e on the "8"....problem, the N is scheduled to arrive on the 8...that's why the N is held outside 36th St ofter, Because the B is running late....that is usually the case...the N is usually on time until 36th St. Thank the subway gods that the N has an extra two minutes cushion time added into the schedule (between 36th & DeKalb)...
I have to go for the N Sea Beach over West End (plus the West End crowd is too rowdy). The M does not count (that train is lost...)
Well well, where the hell have you been all these months? I hope you are planning of staying for awhile. Sea Beach 53, eh? Sounds like a hell of a handle to me. I last rode the Sea Beach in 1953 so I can identify with you. We once had a Sea Beach Express on this site but he went bye bye some months ago and I have been fighting those rotten Brighton, and West End boys practically by myself. Welcome aboard.
AIN'T NOBODY HERE DEFENDIN' DA CULVA' LINE!?!?! WELL, FRED, YOUSE MUGS GOT SOME COMPETITION FROM DA CULVA LINE NOW!!!!!
The 6th Av IND in Brooklyn showed potential for greatness in the early 1970's, partially over its acquired Culver route. The real Culver was reduced to an interesting shuttle in 1954 and then destroyed. Let's figure out what we're really debating here.
Uhm, nothing if you compare the Culver with the West End. :)
Listen, the present day West End is nothing compared to the greatness of the culver (look at the amount of service each gets.)
Greatness?? Culver???
lololol
West End was the first to get (I hate them however) 4 foot floursecent tubes, back in the VERY early 80s!! One of the first elevated sections of subway to get them.
Remember where the Culver came from, a portal on the WEST END LINE.
As far as SERVICE goes, if my train traveled along the Queens IND it would have 40-50 trains in service during the rush hour as well.
But we always have "M" service on the rush hours :)
Arggh. I know that the "real" culver was reduced to a shuttle. But, you got it all wrong. The culver has it's own sphere of influence, and just decided to get out of 4th ave. Doesn't the sign say: F culver local. Only what 3 or 4 or 5 stops were eliminated on the line, and that was because it linked to West End, a crappy line with a train that needs help from the M during rush hours. You ain't 'chill' with the culver like i am (sorry about my use of slang in this post, but Culver line fires me up.)
Alright, enough with bashing my Culver. Culver is the Best, and don't you forget it.
>>Brighton/ Sea beach have open cut<<
They were too cheap to cover it back.
>>Brighton has express tracks<<
True. But, so do culver and sea beach. Sea Beach's NX killed itself so that that sorry Q and D could flourish (Why?!?!) And culver is getting gyped by management, just like the N)
>>ummm, [fill in BMT line of choice] is better than Culver, umm, because it just is<<
Right. That would explain that why the rest of BMT south fights constantly to get on the manhattan bridge, nassau loop being the first to get 'the boot'B and D are cruel aren't they). Culver has that cool Smith-9th st station (go there on july 4th), it's own access to ave X (nobody else can say that), and has access to the crosstown local line. That line is the only Bklyn-Queens line. And, It isn't a sell-out like the Q, a poor man like the B, or a suffering sickly line unable to fight for itself, like the N.
Tell me, which other line has it's own access to Stillwell?
WEST END.
No. The B train's access to the yard is where? AT CONEY ISLE!!! The F's is at ave. X, 3 stops away!
Hey J, I might agree with what you say but I revel at your blatant enthusiasm for your favorite line. Now you can get a good feel for my abnormal love for the Sea Beach. That's what we need on this line, more gung ho spirit towards their favorite lines. Keep it up, but watch yourself. Don't you dare say anything negative about my train or I will be up in arms.
JTL and Italian Stallion: Well well, it looks like a new rivalry has sprung up on this site, a battle to rival Brighton Beach Bob's and mine. The West End vs the Culver. I like it. But you have to work hard at it or it will get dull, and you won't be able to keep Steve8AVEXP in stiches like we do. But I like what is going down so keep it friendly and keep it up.
Hey Freddy:
Culver could take Sea Beach and Brighton Too. (xcept those scary Sea Beach express tracks. Those are the 'Southern Killa's)
In other words, the Culver was really the Culver when you left. No wonder you find the other debate confusing.
STG: If the truth be known it doesn't take a whole hell of a lot to get me confused about the subway. When you're 3000 miles away there isn't much of a chance to check things out. You have to go by what you hear on this line. So you guys out there be sure to know what you're talking about. Sea Beach Fred needs to get the right info.
YO, DUDE, HOW YOU JUS' CUTTIN MY CULVA OUTTA DIS THREAD??? READ THE TITLE: CULVER VS. WEST END!!! CULVA WILL TAKE SEA BEACH TOO!!! (No offense to fred or SeaBeach53)
The West End has it's own Coney Island Yard access, at Bay 50th Street.
The West End has been in more television and movie footage than any other Southern Division Line.
The Culver Line became part of the IND line, so you can't say that it "found it's own way", it borrowed the IND's way.
Yes, but the Culver is elevated, gives you a 47-50 MPH ride through Rutgers and as many have said, clean, frequent, and does not have too much crime. It's ignored b/c it doesn't have an express, same as how the 3 line past Utica seems to be ignored. {I couldn't think of anything else.}
Oh PLEASE, frequent ride?? F is for FOREVER!!
Try a REAL RAILROAD, ride the Brighton Line!!!
That has 4 Tracks, goes from underground to open cut to embankment to elevated running and they do it FAST.
Elevated, smellevated!! The F just runs underground for a bit and then the hurky-jerky elevated run.
Sorry, I'll stick to the Brighton.
I'm not against Brighton. I'm a rider myself. No matter what anybody may say on other lines, I'll always say that the best stretch in the subway is the Q express from Newkirk to Kings Highway. Whenever I look out the window I feel like I'm on the Babylon stretch of the LIRR.
The West End is elevated also.
You should know that the Culver was always treated as the "fourth stepshild" of the BMT. For many years, perhaps lasting up to the 50s, the Culver was powered by Brighton line substations.
--Mark
It doesn't sound like HPS - yet.:-)
Subway Wars - Southern Division style.
Both the Culver AND the West End were victims of the EVIL IND Subway. The whole BMT was viciously raped by the city owned monopoly. The Eastern Division makes me cry. And, the Southern Division suffers the indignity of IND trains running on its mighty tracks. The BMT was the greatest subway system in NY. And, as far as Culver VS. West End, the Brighton line crushes them both like bugs under an airplane tire.
THE BRIGHTON IS THE FINEST URBAN RAILWAY IN NY!
Smith 9th st.: Highest pt in the subway
Av. X yard: Does Brighton have it's own PRIVATE entrance?
Crosstown & Manhattan: How about that?
Ability to escape that Manhattan Bridge Slop: Brighton??? NOO!!!
And as for that EVIL IND, if not for that, the BMT would go where: Broadway to 57th, and to Williamsburg bridge. SORRY!!!!!
The Best south bklyn line: F Culver Local (xcept for that NX, which sacrificed itself so that Brighton wouldn't have to be humiliated by the sea Beach)
If the City hadn't forced the BMT out of business, they would have gone MUCH farther.
That last line TL is right on the mark. I hope those Brighton boys see it, but, oops I forgot, those guys can't read.
Those 'Brighton Boys' seems to include nearly everyone here. Xcept for about 3 people.
You were allright until the very end and I was cheering you on. But you committed the ultimate indignity when you never even put my Sea Beach into your comparison equation. Another Dullton fan, eh? Well my Sea Beach can go through the Brighton like barf through a bhrama bull.
Not only did 1341 reach 55 in the tube between bowling green and borough hall, but when I got off to go to the transit museumm, its doorbell sounded like PATH! interesting
#4 R62 trains can also reach 50s on Lexington Av Express between 86 Street and 125 Street. That is a cool ride!
Chaohwa
I'd have to see it to believe it. None of the Lex expresses I've been on recently have reached 40.
OTOH, I've seen R-62 4 trains hit 50 in the Joralemon St. tunnel regularly.
The Jorelemon tubes can be fast, if the T/O pushes the timers and "wraps it" as the last one clears.
In 1992 I rode on R-29s that were on a rush hour No. 5 train through the Jorelman Street tunnel. When those cars got going they rocked and made a good deal of noise.
BMTJeff
Try riding the L to and from Manhaton and Queens. You don't even see the timer change from red. I did it four time durring training and the T/O told me to keep my hand away from the brakes and rape it around. I thougt that I was going to hit every single one while gone over 50mph.
Robert
Which cars are the fastest in the tunnel between Manhattan and Queens on the 14th Street Canarsie Line. Are the the slant R-40s?
BMTJeff
I operatad both and they both got up to the same top speed.
Robert
Don't forget that back in 1992, trains still had that secret speed weapon: the final field shunt step.
A TA T/O told me that while wrong railing, he got an R-62 up to 62mph in Joralemon St. Tubes
the mta's subway lines is so confusing! YA DON'T KNOW WHERE THE TRAINS ARE GOING!!
Yeah... it's a real eyesore... hardly.
You need to have experience with the subway in order to know definitely where a train's going. It also helps to know the track map because then you can narrow down what the TA will do with your train.
Sounds like a desperate plea to return to the Peter Max subway maps with all those psychedelic colors. Now that a crappy $100 inkjet printer can do 256K colors at minimum, there's no excuse, even for MTA. With modern printing methods direct from TIF files, again no excuse. A lighter version of the same color or dashed lines to indicate "not full time service" the MTA could go back 30 years and produce a map that shows lines by colors with the circles at the terminals to indicate train "name" with instersecting circles for express stops, flat lines for local stops and colored lines next to each other as was done in the late 60's and early 70's ... to folks NOT familar with the system, those maps worked a WHOLE lot better for people who NEEDED a damned map than the diamonds and circles and everything the same color of today.
If a train purporting to run on the same street as the other trains is a different color, it DOES tend to make you look for more information on why this train isn't like the other ones and why the color isn't what you expect. Out of towners already expect some surprises and after getting on a chartreuse train, expecting a burgundy one, can get off at the next station and wait for the burgundy one and get where they want to go without cursing the mayor and his ancestors. Hell, only us CITY BOYZ can do that! :)
[the mta's subway lines is so confusing!! YA DON'T KNOW WHERE THE TRAINS ARE GOING!!]
Yes, the NYC subway system can seem a little imposing. However, even most first-time users can get where they're going without much difficulty by (1) checking the map; (2) reading signs, and (3) asking employees, cops, or other riders.
Never ask other riders unless it is rush hour. Off-peak and weekend riders appear to be total morons.
[Never ask other riders unless it is rush hour. Off-peak and weekend riders appear to be total morons.]
Interesting. Are you assuming a completely different set of riders, or do "normal" people somehow magically transform into morons at 9:30AM? From my own experience, I seem just as sane (or insane) when riding at 6:45AM on Wednesday as when riding at 3:22PM on Saturday.
([Never ask other riders unless it is rush hour. Off-peak and weekend riders appear to be total morons.]
Interesting. Are you assuming a completely different set of riders, or do "normal" people somehow magically transform into morons at 9:30AM? From my own experience, I seem just as sane (or insane) when riding at 6:45AM on Wednesday as when riding at 3:22PM on Saturday.)
Uh, I find that some Rush hours riders are morons too {i.e. train With a Big A on the front of it is not a C train, so why even ask?}
And, What he means is that you have lots of people who ride rush hours only, and other people who ride off-peak only.
Reasons for my statement:
1. Rush hour riders must ride every day and have more experience with the system and probably know the line they're on pretty well (memorized the station order and transfer announcements and whatnot). During off hours you have many occasional riders who are working off directions someone wrote down for them on a napkin.
Other reasons for not asking during the non-rush times:
2. During the rush, there are many people around who will hear you ask for directions. There is a greater chance that someone will correct someone else who gives the wrong directions.
3. During off hours there are GOs, even midday weekday ones, which ordinary people understandably will not know about. Example at Port Authority- Asked Guy: Take the Far Rockaway A to get to the airport, not the Lefferts. Lost guy: But they're all Lefferts, and the C/R is telling us to take the train to the shuttle. Asked Guy: He's wrong or something, I don't know.
4. Also, your average rush hour rider when riding off-hours may know how things work on weekdays, but probably doesn't know about the various changes which occur for night and weekend service (though weekend service is looking more and more like weekday service, with the full-length C and B to 145 and the like).
I'd surmise that rush hour commuters, who make the same commute day after day, are familiar with the lines they ride but may be clueless in the event of a reroute, while midday travelers have somewhat more diverse travel patterns and thus know more of the system as a whole.
Anyway, this raises another question:
At what point do you offer your unsolicited advice to someone who is obviously confused?
Anyone who's ridden the A in Brooklyn has seen luggage-laden tourists scrutinizing the maps. Many of them are unaware of the notion of an express train. I once overheard a group of tourists "figure out" that if they stayed on the A train to 72nd Street, they'd reach their destination. Should I have corrected their error? Tourists are warned to stay away from strangers on the subway, and I didn't want to scare them -- but, OTOH, an express ride to 125th would, I'm sure, scared the daylights out of them, since, after all, 125th is in Harlem. In the end, one of them realized that they were on a "fast" train (his language); at the next stop, still in Brooklyn, they nearly got off to catch the C. At that point I interjected and (after determining where on 72nd they were actually going) told them to stay on the A to 59th and transfer to the B or C across the platform.
Today, there were two airport-goers on a Lefferts A, somewhat aware that they should have gotten a Rockaway A but stayed on board anyway. At one point the C/R says "there is no Rockaway A service today, stay on this train for the Rockaways" and I had to do some fast talking to keep them from getting off.
[At what point do you offer your unsolicited advice to someone who is obviously confused?]
I try to sit near the map for that very purpose, and usually end up helping at least one "lost soul" per off-peak ride (especially with diversions). Sometimes they just ask; other times, they'll peruse the map and try to find their way. If someone spends over two minutes checking the map, I'll offer to help; more often than not, they either accept readily or decline politely.
[OTOH, an express ride to 125th would, I'm sure, scared the daylights out of them, since, after all, 125th is in Harlem.]
This is telling me you haven't been to 125th St. recently.
Oh, I've been there, and I enjoy the ride on the A. But tourists are brainwashed into believing that much of NYC -- most of all, Harlem -- is dangerous, dangerous, dangerous, and that anyone who sets foot there is murdered, or merely mugged if they're lucky.
In Manhattan there do seem to be more tourists riding the subway. They do ask questions sometimes which I don't mind answering.
But when they start blocking stairways and blocking your path, then it gets annoying.
In Manhattan there do seem to be more tourists riding the subway on weekends. They do ask questions sometimes which I don't mind answering.
But when they start blocking stairways and blocking your path, then it gets annoying.
The older BMT/IRT/IND Cars and the H&M(Path) had marker lights above to tell which train they were. I noticed on the Chicago Els that they have Marker Lights. Do the different Lines use different color combos like they did in NY to tell which train is which. example R-G for one train and G-G for another? Also any other system use or used this program???
Nobody else has replied so I'll offer what limited knowledge I have. Interesting Chicago cars still have the markers but shame on me as a railfan for not noticing whether or not there are still different color combinations displayed. I do remember in my visits in the 60's that each line had its own colors and seem to recall that A stop and B stop trains had the colors reversd, such as [on the same line one would be red-green and the other green-red] but I never did study them in detail . I'm sure someone else will provide the rest of the info. With so much traffic control high-tech these days I'd imagine they are redundant in Chicago too, but perhaps not.
PATH still uses theirs
I know Path Does, but I am more interested in Chicago, and the other cities like Boston, Philly or Cleveland with older systems. I know Bart and WMATA have signs in their windows stateing which train they are
for anyone who cares right now the subway is on law and order someone was killed on it.
Greetings, fellow Subtalkers,
I had a random question come into my head: do other subway systems use specialty trains to handle maintenance and administrative tasks like garbage and revenue collection?
I just can't seem to picture a train of flatcars with heaping garbage rolling through the Pentagon station in Washington's Metro system. :-)
If anyone knows of similar operations outside of New York, it would be interesting to learn about.
Thanks,
Brandon
NYC is unique in that it runs 24/7, a lot of transit systems shut down at night allow MOW activites.
Outside of that, I don't know your answer.
I can say that Atlanta doesn't have a money train. Instead, I sometimes see two workers, armed, pushing a cart from a station onto the train to take to the Lindbergh HQ. The cart looks pretty secure and has a flashing yellow light on the top. Of course, there are more than two people and one cart for the whole system :)
MARTA also has at least one diesel car.
DC has a small revenue platform on the Red line in the tunnel near Metro Center.
Toronto has garbage trains that work in the wee hours when service is not running. I don't know about money trains.
Not anymore!
The fire on the garbage train at Old Mill station in December put an end to that practice. There aren't any money trains either - they go around with a Securicor armoured van led by a Transit Patrol Special Constable car to each and every station to collect money.
I've seen the money train for WMATA roll by once in awhile. I can't tell if its just random cars that they use or what, but one car had an old roll sign in it even though the rest in the fleet have electronic sign. The train comes in, sometimes wrong railing, pitch black except for some emergency lights, then heavily armed officers stand on the platform and some still on the train until they wheel the money carts as they go station to station. I think each station has a platform where the money is wheeled out to the train.
Well, here in Chicago, there's no money train, and I've seen armored cars in red-white-and-blue CTA livery parked in front of stations.
But I've also seen them collecting money using the regular trains. Two guys, in regular CTA uniforms but carrying guns on their belts, travel from station to station, one pushing a big steel box on wheels with a slot for dropping something (presumably money) in. At stations where there is no elevator, they have to pull the box up and down the stairs.
Why there are two different methods, I have no idea. Perhaps the armored cars for filling change into the fare machines and the box on wheels for emptying out the fare machines and turnstiles? Or maybe the other way around?
i have gotten to the bottom of the heating oil smell on the #7 line... in order to provide more heat in the redbirds during the winter, the mta is experimenting with an oil fired furnace on several sets of redbirds... sometimes the tanks are overfilled with #6 heating oil and the excess fuel sloshes out when the train lurches in the tunnel ... there is a study underway at this moment, to see if the heating oil could be replaced by either propane gas or a small nuclear reactor...
I vote for the nuclear reactor. ;) Propane gas is too dirty.
I would have thought the oil was coming out of the heaters they use on the R-33WF cars during the summer, but I could be wrong...
Why that's awfully generous of those darn MTA folk. I mean giving the marine life a nice cozy winter home and all.
almost forgot to mention for the students of car sticker meanings... if they go ahead with the nuclear reactor, there will one of those nice "radiation warning" stickers on the car, which probably will result in plenty of empty seats in the cars, even during rush hours...
Woohoo! Yellow and purple stickers! Now that'll confuse the Corona yard guys to no end. :)
C'mon heypaul ... if it's the #7 line, the TA would be experimenting with #7 heating oil. Using #6 heating oil would confuse too many people, especially when THAT should be used on the #6 line ....
--Mark
Maybe they should invent #7 heating oil just to use on the #7 line.
BMTJeff
I like the idea of a small nuclear reactor. Maybe you can have some Redbirds that glow in the dark if they have a nuclear reactor.
BMTJeff
On Law and Order tonite a woman was killed at a 23rd St. station. There are several and I was wondering what one it was. Also there was a cool scene with a token clerk being totally un-helpful and many great snide comments. It was also interesting to note that the show said that the DoC gave the released inmates a token, not a MetroCard and how the police were able to use the MetroCard ride history to track down the identity of the woman who was killed.
there was a cool scene with a token clerk being totally un-helpful and many great snide comments
The TA is going to love that one.
--Mark
It was a rerun I hadn't seen before (except for the intro Subway scene) so the time for anger has passed. The seen showed Brisco and Greene standing in front of a token booth holding up a picture of the dead woman and asking the clerk various questions to which every one the clerk replied "Sorry." Brisco answered his own last question by saying "Yeah, I know you're "Sorry"." I wonder if they used a real token booth clerk with real customers waiting in line.
It's shot on site using a real token booth, but they use extras.
Law & Order my favorite, but now being pushed by the Sopranos!
Producer Dick Wolf and his writers tend to use "live" storylines and alter them for the TV show. This sounds like a take off on the incident in early 1999 at 23rd & Broadway. The poor lady was shoved under an R train by a lifetime maniac on release from the hosptital.
I forget the victim's name off-hand...she was from the Buffalo area originally. First name Kendra.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Kendra Webdale, I think?
--Mark
It was an N train, and it was Kendra Webdale.
Ever notice how ALL of the people are totally unhelpful and have snide comments? Also, they usually continue doing their job while being questioned for homocide. Very interesting if you look for it. All of the characters on that show have the SAME personality. :-)
All of the characters on that show have the SAME personality. :-)
Yeah, New Yorker.
As most of you know, Boston doesn't have covers on it's third rail.
In the event of a fire, how does New York lift 3rd rail shoes off the rail?
Don't the covers get in the way?
CTA and BART have no covers either (surprising for a system as modern as BART).
If you had to get 3rd rail shoes off you'd have to get the power off and open the main knife switch so there would be no power draw if it came back on {i hope not if the T/O is standing there], and shove a board called a shoe slipper under each shoe on the 3rd rail.
But in the event of a fire this is all superfluous as the first thing to do would be to have the power shut off[pulling an emergency alarm box or calling control/command] anyway. And secure the train with handbrakes. and if you can, like the shepherd, get the flock out of there.
In Boston, there's no "main knife switch" and we can lift the shoes and hook them up. Look away lifting the final shoe!
Does the slipper attach to the shoe in any way so the car can be moved while power is on the rest of the train?
The subject came up during a discussion of 3rd railing the Blue Line in Boston. If this comes to pass, it would be an ideal line to test 3rd rail covers due to the short distance.
"Inquiring supervisors want to know!!"
Thanks
No the slipper does not go with the car once in motion again. Actually in extreme cases such as a grounded shoe beam or bus cable the shoes would have to be removed...obviously no contact with 3rd rail so B/O car could be taken to the shop.
The old IRT shoes had a cast iron one piece assembly and they had to be broken off by chisel. The 2 piece IND shoes were adapted to the others later, with a pin holding shoe pad on, just knock out the pin but then the motorman didn't have the tools for it anyway. Mechanical help would no doubt be there in time anyway.
IMHO if the rest of the system is uncovered why make one line different? If it works OK and there haven't been many electrocutions why bother?. But I would IMHO feel all third rails everywhere should be covered. But it doesn't seem to make much difference.
Hope I've been of some help. BTW happy to relate that on two visits to Boston I had the good fortune to ride the 1924 East Boston cars. Last of the old type in Boston.
Thanks Biged.......,
Great info. As you may remember, the Blue switches to overhead outside of the tunnel. This has always been the source of problems on the Blue. The new Sup't has stated, in the past, that she'd prefer 3rd rail the whole way. They've worked out the 3rd rail heater probs and have developed a reliable 3rd rail scraper, on the Red, since the Blue Line was extended to Wonderland.
Having overhead on the stretch from East Boston to Revere, sometimes kids find a hole in the fence to avoid paying. While it's been a danger for them to be on the ROW with the trains, it would be compounded with a live third rail. While they would educate the kids in the area, a 3rd rail cover would be an added safety feature. The Blue does not interconnect with any other lines, so there wouldn't be a systemwide problem.
New cars are just going out to bid and are not expected for another couple of years. Maybe a main breaker could be spec'd in.
Thanks again.
This is reminding me I'm overdue for a visit to Boston. Haven't been there in 24 years! Did enjoy the T on several visits back when.
Hello, folks. I would like to ask a question, and would be very grateful if anyone would help me on this. I thank all in advance. I am posting my e-mail address (see above - please, no spam!:))for anyone who would be gracious enough to prompt me in the right direction on this.
The question is: Is anyone familiar with word processor printing - on index cards? Specifically, creating Microsoft Word 97 word processor documents for printing on index cards 4'x6'. The printer that I have available is an HP 722C deskjet, which accepts index cards in this size. This may be fairly basic for experienced Word users, but a solution has eluded me thus far. Once again, I would be grateful for any help concerning this. Thanks.
-cordially,
turnstiles
I am sorry. I didn't post the domain name of the e-mail address. It's available above now. Thanks!
-cordially,
turnstiles
Just set proper page margins.
Next time, ask somewhere else. This is not your general computer tech help forum.
Select Page Setup from the File Menu and set the correct size.
Also remember to set the right margins.
If necessary, when printing (print from the file menu) select the manual loading tray. This assumes that your printer has a separate tray for the cards.
I had an inquiry at rapidtransit.com as to whether the 59th Street Power House at the Hudson River is still standing and in use.
So, any one know? Last time I looked it was, but I'm not sure.
Building is of interest because it was designed by McKim, Mead & White.
If you mean the one on 59th Street between 11th and 12th Avenues, the answer is YES, though I really don't know if it is still used by Con-Ed for electricity generation.
--Mark
I believe it's still in use as a power plant.
It was there a week ago when I passed it on 11th Avenue.
Ok, here's another great Hot Times Newsletter being reposted here from my e-mail.
*****************************************************************
This time it's 2001: A Train Odyssey
I know it has been quite awhile since I've written anything, but it has
been a tough last six weeks. Between some health problems
that resulted in a lot of tests and doctor visits (I'm much better
now), a computer that decided to start showing signs of age as
well as a few other problems, and then a few minor
catastrophes like a water heater that decided to give up the
ghost and empty itself all over my basement floor as I was
about to leave for work. We also lost out VCR to old age (14
years) and I began to seriously doubt the reliability of the sump
pump. You all know that when that Murphy fellow shows up at
your door, he brings his troublesome triplet brothers with him.
As it would happen, I beat them to the punch and got a new
sump pump before they got a hold of the old one. In retaliation,
they rubbed out the coffee maker, and they didn't use an eraser
to do it either. It wasn't pretty.
Aside from all of this, I got bumped off my one day off a week
assignment 322/325 and back to chain gang pool freight. This
means I have no real idea when I will go to work, how long I will
be gone and when I will be back home. All of this from the folks
that bring you a "totally scheduled" railroad.
No wonder I drink.
I've been looking forward to this year for a long time. It has given me a
chance to use this title. "2001: A Space Odyssey" is one of my
all time most favorite movies. I've probably seen it 30 times
and read the book three times. The sequel, "2010" is also a
favorite. Each time I see 2001, I understand a little bit more of
it. But there is still a lot that doesn't quite make sense. Quite
like railroading; after over 22 years of this career, there is still a
great deal I haven't figured out. And likely never will. Although
by the time I retire, I'll probably be sent to some home for weary
railroaders and spend my days singing "Daisy, Daisy" just like
HAL the computer did in 2001.
"I know a song Dave. Would you like to hear it?"
I wonder if Arthur C Clarke writes every day of railroading nationwide
and the late Stanley Kubrick directs it?
We're going to do several of these pieces throughout this year as I
pick out some of stranger than normal trips that make up my
work days this year.
I have a trip from a couple of weeks ago that I was intending to use
first, but today was one of those days that really qualifies too,
and is fresh upon my mind. So here it goes.
We were ordered at Champaign at 0900 this morning for 337, a
Champaign to Waterloo train. Upon our arrival, I was shocked
to see that they had our train already doubled up and pulled
down. Our paperwork was ready and we even got all of our
General Orders okayed in short order. This is strange. It was
also about as good as it was going to get.
The FRA had paid a visit to Champaign this sunny day and the normal
havoc that results when they visit was indeed happening today.
While our train looked ready, in real life it wasn't. The Carman
still had to perform the air brake test and inspection. That was
only the beginning.
We had a couple of NS units today; the 8948 (Dash 9-40CW) and the
8529 (C36-7). While I have operated plenty of NS units over
the years, this was the first time I had an NS Dash 9-40CW in
the lead. These units have integrated cab functions and dual
mode receivers for both NS and AAR end of train devices.
Being that everything around here is always a big mystery, the
method of changing from one mode to another was right up
there with this philosophy.
We could not link up the head end and tail end telemetry units as we
did not know how to change the mode on the locomotive from
NS to AAR. We did have an NS telemetry on hand, but it had
very weak batteries and we could not use it. There is no
charger at Champaign capable of charging the batteries used
in NS units as they are different than everybody else's. The
chain of these events took well over an hour to get resolved.
Ed Carlin, the General Mechanical Foreman from Decatur was here
today and he and an Electrician came to lend a hand. I was
told there is supposed to be a switch in the nose to change to
telemetry mode from NS to AAR. I could find no switch in the
nose of the locomotive. I looked everywhere in that cab,
including in the high voltage electrical cabinet where there
were all kinds of switches. No mode transfer switch. God forbid
they should put it in a logical location that is easy to access
and well marked. Once again, equipment designed by those
that will never have to use it.
Ed got on the phone to a friend at Norfolk Southern and asked him to
give us a clue in our little seek and discovery mission. This guy
told Ed "The switch is inside the high voltage cabinet, well
marked and would jump right out and bite us." We didn't see it
and there was nothing biting. Hmm, something right out of a
"Mickey Spillane" novel. Maybe we needed the likes of "Mike
Hammer" to solve this one.
After looking high and low, we were about ready to throw in the towel
when John the Electrician discovered the switch. Ya, it was in
the high voltage cabinet, only not quite all the way in where we
were all looking. It was mounted on the door itself at the very
bottom. While it was clearly marked, about the only way it was
going to jump and bite anybody is if they were on their hands
and knees. Guess this guy at the NS left out one teensy little
detail. Sorry Mickey, you'll have to send Mike back to one of
his "dolls."
We get the conversion accomplished and go about attempting to arm
the light and do the dump and brake tests. After getting the
light armed, Ed accidentally hits the disarm selection and we
lose the link. Being that the head end device is part of the
integrated cab functions, it cannot be readily rearmed. It takes
several steps. Ain't technology great? It makes me want to take
the designers of this stuff, stick them all in a room with a nun
and a steel ruler and say " Sister, they have been really, really
bad."
We finally get the light rearmed and perform the required dump and
brake tests. Carman Mike Burke had to walk the set on the
train and then roll-by the release. We finally got the highball and
departed at 1200, some three hours after going on duty. We
left town with 38 loads and 89 empties for 7757 tons and 7556
feet of train in tow.
Off we go to Gilman for our only scheduled work between Champaign
and Markham. We paused briefly at Rantoul to meet the local
before zooming off again. We arrived at Gilman at 1315, cut
the train off about 45 car lengths south of Route 24 to hold our
pick up and clear the crossing when we tied our train back
together.
We had to head to the north end of Gilman to get our pick-up which
was interchanged to us from the TPW. Of course, it was behind some
cars going to the TPW that they had not yet come to get. As we
proceeded up into town, there we see a TPW crew on their power
waiting for us to make our pick-up so they could get theirs. They had a
pair of those tired old ex Santa Fe GP20's. They probably drooled as
we went past with a high tech toaster in the lead. A couple of quick
moves and an air test later, and we're ready to head back to the train.
Only Conductor Andy realized that he forgot to get the required
paperwork while at Chaopaign for this pick-up as it contained hazmat.
A call on the Motorola to Champaign freight and it was sent magically
to the printer at the Gilman depot. We stopped and picked it up on the
way back to the train. We finally departed Gilman at 1505 with
54X107, 9022 tons, 9622 feet.
Off to the races yet again. The lovely Jennifer has now taken over as
the Dispatcher at Desk 2. She calls and asks how far I am
going. A loaded question perhaps? I tell her " Just as far as
you'll let me." She tells us we will go at least to Peotone and we
would see what happens from there. This has ominous sounds
to it.
We get a diverging approach signal at South Peotone after passing
an approach signal at Manteno. She still hadn't decided our
fate until after we passed the signal at Manteno (46.2).
Normally, we would get an approach diverging at Manteno if
were already lined up at South Peotone to head into the siding.
As I started to head in, I called Jennifer to see if we would be
there long enough to justify cutting the crossing. First she said
yes. I moseyed on in, dropped Andy at the crossing and pulled
the train by. When we cleared and were about ready to cut the
train and open the crossing, Jennifer tells us to forget cutting it.
322 is now showing up and Amtrak 391 is close behind.
Frankie at Desk 1 will take us behind 391. So Andy gets to
walk up to the head end instead. Maybe he wanted the
exercise. Exercise in futility perhaps.
We normally cut this crossing at Peotone when we are told we will be
here for an extended period. There is a business located here
that calls the police when we block the crossing. They have
also been known to come out and yell at crew members for
blocking it as well. Sometimes some of the neighbors even go
as far as giving us that famous "you're number one" gesture
too. Such friendly folks. Maybe this is why a former mayor of
neighboring Manteno once said, "They can't sing a note, but
they can Peotone." Our little sojourn here lasted for 55 minutes
before we made our merry way north again.
We arrived at Markham at 1815, waited for 194 to depart and then
got our turn to enter the black hole of the CNIC. We had to set
out all the cars we picked up at Gilman here, and then go over
to Woodcrest and pick-up three more engines, the GT 5922,
GT 5900 and GT 6401. We wound our way over there, added
the engines to the consist, performed the required locomotive
brake test and finally headed back to our train at Homewood.
When we finally departed Markham, it was 2010 and we had 50
minutes to work. Another suicide mission: mission impossible.
We had absolutely no chance to make it to Hawthorne, our final
leg of this journey where a CCP crew would take over. Oh no,
we would fall short in our mission yet again and pass away well
short of our intended goal.
"Should any of your IM force be caught or killed, the Chief Dispatcher
will disavow any knowledge of this mission."
They had ideas to drain out every last grain of sand in that hours of
service glass. I brought this odyssey to an end at 95th Street,
just across from the Metra station where the cab and recrew
could easily reach us. We pulled to a stop with just a few short
minutes of sand left in that glass. The CCP crew arrived at
2110 and we exchanged pleasantries and information about
the train and power. We climbed into the cab at 2115 and
headed back to Markham where our long day's journey into
night ended at 2200 hours.
I have not forgotten the hours of service piece I've been promising. I
now have all the research material and information I need.
Now, if I could just acquire some time to write it. But stay tuned
just the same as hopefully, it will show up soon on a monitor near
you.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Visit the BLE Divison 10 website; http://div10.tripod.com/homepage.html
Has anyone received their copy of the "Tale of Ten Cities" book from the PublishAmerica web site? It's been nearly 6 weeks since I ordered mine.
Dave
I don't know what's going on with this myself. I've made inquiries about this but my best guess is that their decision to place a photograph I'd sent in of the Jerome Avenue El on the cover instead of the Japanese Bullet train has caused a major delay in getting the book out (assuming they'd printed out a number of books with the original cover, then it probably took them awhile to replace them with the new one). Sorry for the delay. I'll make further inquiries if you don't have your copy in short order and let you know what I find out.
Thanks again,
Eric Dale Smith
I haven't gotten it yet either. I have already exchanged e-mails and called PublishAmerica about it - it's at the printer now and they expect to be sending them out "RSN". (They didn't hesitate to bill me, though).
--Mark
I haven't received mine either... if the book doesn't arrive within the next week or so I'll be advising my credit union that it is a contested charge on my card... I've emailed PublishAmerica and have had no response.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll wait for it to get to the bookstores.
It is just too risky ordering things online and I can see that the situation has not really improved.
Eric, your book sounds interesting but I can contain myself until it shows up in B & N or Borders.
I don't have a problem with ordering online, in fact, I loathe bricks-and-mortar bookstores. I just wouldn't order from a small time company about which I've never heard.
I recently came across a map of the western portion of the LIRR routes circa 1942. The map shows that there were two stations sandwiched around the current Locust Manor station on the Far Rock/Long Beach line. (Locust Manor is the first stop after Jamaica en route from Jamaica to Valley Stream.) These stations are identified as "Cedar Manor" and "Higbie Avenue."
I ride the Far Rock every morning from Cedarhurst and usually travel the route between Valley Stream and Jamaica. There is no trace that I can see of either the Cedar Manor or Higbie Avenue stations. I find this unusual because the other stations on that portion of the line (Locust Manor, Laurelton, Rosedale and Valley Stream) are all made of concrete and steel, thus suggesting that Cedar Manor and Higbie Avenue were also constructed of those materials.
If that is so, why is there no remnant of either of these stations? I thought that concrete and steel stations were left standing to rot, such as the Woodhaven station on the old Rock Beach line and Union Hall Street on the main line.
Does anyone have any information/photos/anything else about these two mystery stations?
Thanks.
I think those two stations were at street level and were demolished when the grade elimination was done in the 1950's.
Now that makes sense. Is there any way I can confirm that?
Also, they were replaced midway by the Locust Manor station, meant to serve the new Rochdale Village complex, which was built around the mid-fifties, the same time the tracks were raised to an embankment.
Traces of the defunct Union Hall and Bellaire stations are still visible. They were open for many years after the main line through eastern Queens was put on an embankment- sometime in the teens or twenties, I suspect. For some reason, their remnants have not been removed, while the sites of Elmhurst, Corona and Rego Park stations, which were also on current embankments, have been long picked clean.
But how can Locust Manor have replaced Cedar Manor and Higbie Avenue? The 1942 map shows all three being on the line at the same time.
The map I'm referring to appears in the book "Change at Ozone Park."
But how can Locust Manor have replaced Cedar Manor and Higbie Avenue? The 1942 map shows all three being on the line at the same time.
The map I'm referring to appears in the book "Change at Ozone Park."
It's possible that the LIRR initially thought that there'd be sufficient ridership to support all three station, later closing Cedar Manor and Higbie Avenue when it realized that its earlier assumption was wrong.
Today's Locust Manor station presumably is a replacement for the one that existed in 1942. It might not even be in the same precise location.
Getting back to the issue of closed station removal, I've never quite figured out why the LIRR left part of Union Hall largely intact when it's been so much more thorough about removing other closed stations (Springfield Gardens, old Hillside, Rego Park, Elmhurst, to a lesser degree Belleaire).
There's still quite a bit of Elmhurt left, watch out the front on any Port Washington trtain and you can see where it was. My guess as to why Union Hall and parts of Belleaire were left was that there's an awful lot of traffic through there, and they didn't wat to tie it up. Or they were intending on removing it durring a track rehab. The track into and around Jamacia is pretty bad...
When did they start pulling down those 2 stations? I vaugely remember in my youth (mid 80's) seeing 2 fairly sizeable stations along the way to Jamacia...
Also, where was North Roslyn located?
I don't think there was ever a North Roslyn. Union Hall Street and Bellaire ceased to be stations in the early 70's. I don't rememeber which went first, but I remember stopping there. Hillside was abandoned in the sixties, looked like post-WW2 Berlin until HMF was built. They were all served by alternate Hempstead trains (weekday service was half-hourly) and by East Williston locals (weekdays every 90 minutes). Hempstead service was halved, and the E.W. locals vanished with the Huntington electrification.
I just rolled by Union Hall the other day. It's in pretty bad shape - hardly looks like a station anymore. Someone should get some photos before its all gone.
I just rolled by Union Hall the other day. It's in pretty bad shape - hardly looks like a station anymore. Someone should get some photos before its all gone.
You needn't rush to the camera store. Union Hall's been largely unchanged for at least the three years I've been riding the LIRR regularly - and in all likelihood for many more years before that. There's still a banged-up old trash can on the westernmost end of the platform remains.
If I recall from my days riding to Laurelton back in the early to mid-50's, the old Jamaica RaceTrack was located at the site of the Cedar Manor Station. I recall a siding at the station(maybe for racetrack trains?). The track was definitely closed in the late 50's before they built Rochdale Village.
Carl M.
I recently obtained some old LIRR timetables which can help shed some light on the discussion.
Cedar Manor and Higbie Avenue were closed sometime between September 2, 1958 and September 12, 1960. The current Locust Manor station appears to be at the same location as the prior station -- Mile 13.6 in all timetables I have from 1953-60.
For points of reference, Jamaica is at mile 11.3, Cedar Manor was at 12.8, Locust Manor 13.6, Higbie Avenue 14.6, Laurelton 15.1 and Rosedale 16.0. So the demise of Higbie Avenue likely had at least something to do with its proximity to Laurelton as well as the perceived need for a station near Rochdale Village.
As far as ridership went, one can make some inferences from the schedules.
In 1953, all of the Atlantic Branch stations saw fairly frequent peak hour service. Off peak, Cedar Manor and Locust Manor were local stations for West Hempstead branch trains. Higbie, Laurelton and Rosedale were stops for the Far Rockaway (actually Rockaway Park, then) locals. (For those who really groove on Southeastern Queens service in the 50's, Springfield Gardens and St. Albans were served by Long Beach locals)
By 1958, service to both Cedar Manor and Locust Manor had almost entirely evaporated. Eastbound, Cedar Manor had just 2 trains a day on weekdays and Locust Manor just 8. Weekends, Cedar Manor was closed. Locust Manor got 3 eastbound trains on Saturday and only 1 on Sunday. Westbound service was similar. Higbie Avenue continued to have service on par with Laurelton and Rosedale.
Per the 1960 schedule, once Higbie and Cedar Manor closed, Locust Manor essentially took on the schedule of the old Higbie Avenue -- local stop on Far Rockaway trains, frequent service.
One other note that I can't really explain. Both Laurelton and Rosedale had frequent reverse commute service throughout the 50's (every 20 minutes, as opposed to every 90 minutes off peak). What was going on in that area that (apparently) was bringing in workers in droves?
CG
Charles, with your permission, I'll use your post in my LIRR History Website . Let me know if it's OK.
I'd be honored, Bob.
If you (or anyone else) has any other LIRR questions from that period, I'd be happy to try and figure them out from the schedules. I have schedules for all branches from 1953, 1958 and 1960.
CG
Done!
Charles, with your permission, I'll use your post in my LIRR History Website . Let me know if it's OK.
Thesen days, if you go through Locust Manor it looks like it's begging for a subway station. This is an area that could use that extension of the E.
:-) Andrew
Rego Park, after the Rockaway Line got cut, was completely demolished and replaced with a staircase leading to a low platform capable of accommodating one door. There were no remains to remain.
I ride the Far Rock every morning from Cedarhurst and usually travel the route between Valley Stream and Jamaica. There is no trace that I can see of either the Cedar Manor or Higbie Avenue stations. I find this unusual because the other stations on that portion of the line (Locust Manor, Laurelton, Rosedale and Valley Stream) are all made of concrete and steel, thus suggesting that Cedar Manor and Higbie Avenue were also constructed of those materials.
The Springfield Gardens station, which was located east of St. Albans, has vanished virtually without a trace even though I believe it was a regular concrete-and-steel station. All that's left today is a wide space between the tracks and a very rusted train-stop indicator sign.
So even if Cedar Manor or Higbie Avenue had been regular stations (which they weren't, see Bob A.'s reply), they indeed could have disappeared entirely.
Cedar Manor and Higbie Avenue were totally decimated with grade-crossing elimination. Locust Manor never got more than alternate Far Rockaway trains until the 1980's. Rochdale Village was the site of Jamaica Racetrack. Before that, it was a shop for MP41 cars and for winter storage of T54 trailers (before their retrofitting with heat).
The westbound platform of the original Hewlett is there.
Despite what the Hagstrom maps say, there is no spur connecting the Far Roackaway branch with the South Shore to the east, and hasn't since 1931, when it was elevated.
Is the closure of the passageway inside the turnstiles between
Downtown Local and Express platform permanent?
Only at the south end.
Peace,
ANDEE
At the enterance at the end near the back of the Queens-bound E train? Why did they do that?
Who knows why the TA does anything, the reakignment inconveinences me also.
Peace,
ANDEE
Realignment? What exactly did they do?
I use this passage so when I need to add money to my MetroCard upon arriving in New York, I can use the MVMs downstairs since the lines are often long upstairs.
The passage has been moved from inside to outside the fare control. The downtown local annunciator was deactivated, since that portion of the mezz no longer has access to anything but the A. Large "ATTENTION: TRANSFER TO LOCAL NO LONGER AVAILABLE HERE" signs keep people from walking straight into the fence (like I almost did).
When it was within fare control pedestrian traffic when exiting trains was rather orderly. LIRR folk who already had tickets would use the upper passage and direct connection to the LIRR-only west end concourse, while everyone else used the stairs and exited the lower passage to the main section of the station. The lower passage usally saw more exiting people than the upper, and also has more turnstiles to handle it. Now, everyone must use the four turnsiles and exit-only thing on the upper level, causing hell for anyone attempting to enter.
I saw on both monday and Tuesday that the dorrs to the passage are open, it is full of equiptment but saw people walking into it that didn't look like they worked there, is it open?
No, that passage is permanantly closed. A lot of outside contractors store equipment in there. Assuming you are talking about 6th ave.
Peace,
ANDEE
yes 6th ave I'll have look again next week if I can because at least 5 or 10 people walked into it
I'll be walking by there in about 5 minutes. As I do everyday around this time. I'll let you know.
Peace,
ANDEE
When I went by there today, all doors were closed and the passage was NOT open.
Peace,
ANDEE
About 10 years ago, after an early evening sexual assault in the passage, the TA decided to close off the 40th Street to 35th Street area. I believe that it was supposed to be used for contractors and employees only.
In bad weather, however, you could walk from 42nd to 34th and not get wet. Another good passage was from 6th Avenue to 8th Avenue along 14th Street (now closed 7th to 8th).
The IND builders had a good idea, until crime came along.
It was a good idea until liberals-in-power came along (and crime followed them)!
There are 2 non-sequiturs in that sentence.
Point them out! AND who cares if you do? Is this a grammer forum? The message was clear enough.
There are 2 non-sequiturs in that sentence.
Point them out! AND who cares if you do? Is this a grammer forum? The message was clear enough.
The message is that you have no clue what a non sequitur is. (Hint: it's not about "grammer" -- or spelling.)
In any event, if you must flame, please do it somewhere else.
Who was I flaming? You? The original respondant? You're more than a bit arrogant to make any assumptions about what I know or don't know, based on a single short sentence. The gist of my comment is true, and anyone with knowledge of the political history of NYC & NYS knows that there's been a significant rise in crime over the past forty years here, BECAUSE of the increase in influence of liberal (progressive) politicians. Anyone with a little bit of intelligence combined with an objective thought process (for the sake of arguement I'll include you) should be able to see it.
Just a conceptual thought here - might it also have something to do with the rise of consumerism over social values, the "gotta have it NOW" mentality that might be behind all the crime? Or the "pop a pill, do a drug, lay down and avoid" changes in the society too?
There haven't been any liberals since John Lindsay fer krissakes ... stop with the "boogie man" "liberal on a stick" nonsense ... Bill Buckley would qualify as a liberal the way those words are tossed about these days. Ain't been a liberal since the 70's in any form of power ... just middle of the roaders and conservatwits ...
Forgive me, I've had more than my fill of the politics here. BOTH parties are out to screw ya, doesn't matter which one you choose anymore.
In bad weather, however, you could walk from 42nd to 34th and not get wet. Another good passage was from 6th Avenue to 8th Avenue along 14th Street (now closed 7th to 8th).
The IND builders had a good idea, until crime came along.
In Toronto and Montreal, they have underground passages that connect their subways with malls and buildings throughout the city. You can go across the city and never be above ground. I suppose these two cities have an extensive network becuase of the cold winters they get. I remember in Montreal there was a marked subway entrance and it went down into a mall and you had to walk thru the mall before getting to the actual subway entrance. Montreal also has maps showing all the passages. I think it is possible to walk completely underground across the "loop" the Metro makes with lines 1 and 2 at some point.
Toronto's, which is called "The PATH", is a huge underground complex downtown connecting all the malls and office buildings together into one underground city. It's huge. It's clean.
--Mark
Here is a list of long passageways I know of which are still open:
Times Square Complex- Broadway/7th ave/8th ave/40-44 street(paid)
14St-7th to 6th Ave(paid)
Chambers/World Trade Center Free--half closed overnight and Sundays.
Paid has high exit at far North end.
Jay Street Brooklyn under Metro Tech free and paid. Reduced from former size.
30 to 34 and 6th IND/BMT/PATH-reduced from former size. Partially closed nights/weekends.
Court Square/23-Ely E/F/G. Plans are in capital program to expand this to include Court House Square on the 7.
51 and Lex to 53 and Lex E/F/6 Also here plans are in capital program to expand the mezz to full length on the E/F.
Atlantic/Pacific Brooklyn- being renovated to full ADA and will include new street level LIRR terminal entry
I forgot one:
42/5- 6 ave (7/B/D/F/Q)
One that's connected to subway entrances but not in fare control is under 6th Av in the Rockefeller Center area. It runs on both sides of the street for several blocks leading to various buildings, and the station is in the middle.
If they were to connect it to and reopen the other passages (both 6th Av and 33rd St.), and extend the 42nd St passage to 6th Av, then we'd have a nice underground network like Toronto's.
Right. I suggest a new project for Sub Talkers:
How about mapping these passageways that are open. I'll do the WTC Complex and the 14th street 7th/6th av passageways.
We need volunteers forL
Jay Street
42nd Street/ 8th ave/Broadway and 5th-6th ave/42nd st (2 passageways)
Rockefeller Center
51/53 and Lex
Court Square/23-Ely
If you do not have a scanner e-mail me off site and I'll send you a snal mail address and I can scan (and include your name(s))
Perhaps Dave can add a new section- passageways to the map section.
I'll start the 14th Street project tonight and the WTC project on Sunday Night(however I'll have to finish it during the week when the balance is open)
The maze I'd be most interested in seeing is the Fulton Street complex.
Would you like to volunteer to do that one!
I'd love to volunteer, but the reason I asked is that it leaves me all turned around every time I walk through it.
I know this one - this is where one of the teachers on our Grade 8 trip to New York got lost!
How about the 4-5-J-M-Z, Broad and Wall street.
Mixture of free and paid; can only get through the whole thing with a FunPass. Gets as far south as Beaver St; gets as far north as Pine or Cedar.
Should this be mapped?
I am glad you volunteered to do this one!
[The IND builders had a good idea, until crime came along.]
Actually, both the passage and its intermediate entrance at 38th Street were built in respose to community outcry over the loss of 38th Street station on the 6th Avenue El.
You mean there actually was one?! My friend John, about three days older than me and not a railfan told me of both the 34th/42nd passage and the 6th/7th ave passages at Herald Sq and I did not believe him until this very board.
It'd be nice if they could open all these closed pedestrian tunnels, perhaps to make them safe they could put entrances to street-level stores and buildings down there, maybe make them part of an underground mall. Any other tunnels I should know about?
There was also an extensive underground passageway system around 47-50th street which connected to many basements of the Rockefeller Center complex underground too ... those might still be open.
There was also an extensive underground passageway system around 47-50th street which connected to many basements of the Rockefeller Center complex underground too ... those might still be open.
Yes, they are... a real rabbit warren. Jr. and I wandered through there last December.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm in school now typing out this message, and thank God Subtalk is still on the boards. I tried last night at home and this morning as well to log on and came up with a blank screen. Was the site down? I even thought for a moment that Dave pulled the plug on us. Was this site down? If it wasn't it would be strange I could log on here but not at home. Is their an answer out there?
Did you ask ever single network provider between me and you if they were down? Relax!
-Dave
By the way, I count at least 5 network providers between me and you; k2nesoft, netaxs, level3, bbnplanet, and whatever you use as an ISP. Any one of these could have had an outage rendering you unable to get to the site in a timely manner.
Well it was a relief that I logged on here and got right on. I hope all is well with the server on my home pc. I've gotten very used to having fun on this site. Do NOT ever pull the plug on this Dave.
The site was working just like the Slow Beach!!! >GR&D<
Let's not get personal Lou. I have enough to deal with when I take on Q, Bob, Doug, and the rest of the Brighton crowd.
OK. Subway competition seems to be in the air, with the BMT vs. BMT threads. In Queens, well we don't really have paralel BMTs to rub together. The closest thing to comparable routes are the Flushing IRT and the Queens Blvd. IND. OK, neither is a BMT (well, the BMT squatted on Flushing and Astoria for a couple of decades till they finally got Astoria to themselves and left Flushing alone) (and the R does run on Queens Blvd) but these are the most comparable lines (and most important lines) Northern Queens has.
It's funny. Once upon a time the Queens Blvd line was known for its speed. My dad talks about growing up in Briarwood and being in Manhattan in no time on the E or F. I don't know what happened, timers, volume, or what, but this state-of-the-art line just isn't performing now. On rush hours, it is regularly beaten by the 7, an ancient, elevated IRT with scratchy old redirds!
The main problem with the IRT is that it doesen't have its own Avenue in Manhattan. You have to transfer at least once to go anywhere that isn't on 42nd St (apart from the N, the easiest tranmsfers are to its sister IRTs at Lexington and Seventh.) But even so, I find the IRT route to be a lot more reliable, and usually faster.
There are two reasons I usually take the F instaed of the 7. First the F is closer to my home in Oakland Gardens. Second, it's much easier to park in Jamaica Estates or Briarwood than it is anywhere along the 7 line.
:-) Andrew
No bites? OK. To make this more incidniary. The R46s stink!! You heard me! :-D The redbirds are way more interesting, even if they've long since outlived their usefulness. And the R62As I look forward to are also way better looking.
Anyway, there's also subfan concerns that make the 7 much better. You get a great view! You can see a very close-up view of Midtown Manhattan and the highly underrated 59th St./Queensboro Bridge. You can see Shea Stadium, the US Tennis Center, The Worlds Fairgrounds,Flushing Meadows Park and the high-rises of Forrest Hills and Kew Gardens off in the distance. And the neighborhoods! This is like a tour of the real New York City behind the glitz of Manhattan.
Even the underground stations, with the sole exception of Grand Central Airplane Hangar, are better looking than the IND. Main St. is gorgeously restored, and Vernon-Jackson and Fifth are nice looking IRT walls.
:-) Andrew
Vernon-Jackson is still partly lit by incandescant bulbs on one platform (last I checked). They're the ones with one bulb at the bottom of a long shaft, IIRC.
And, though I am sick of R-46s every day, they are the BEST CAR. Slightly above average NYC subway speed, 75 feet, conversational seating, no metal paneling to get dented or scratched (R-42, R-62, 68). Not bland tan interior (R40 and below), wood paneling gives it a RR-like feel, floor is never mushy and stays somewhat clean even in wet weather. Reliable, since I rarely hear of equipment problems on an R-46, and also the orange lights (dead motor) don't get much use. They have quiet brakes (unlike R-44). They ride smoothly, and are quite quiet on the inside. Most seats of any NYCT car (along with R-44), on the B cars 76 total. Most armrests of any NYCT car class, 16 on an 'A' car with 14 on the 'B' (R-44 has 12 on A and 14 on B). There are also only 16 seats in a 'B' car where you can have a neighbor on both sides of you, 14 on an 'A'. You can lean on something while sitting in 30 of the seats. Bright shiny exterior, R-44s stripe ruins their appearance.
Digital signs when working correctly are something to watch while bored (and even more fun when they are changing erratically and periodically blanking out). They also allow for 'on the fly' sign changes as well as make for some interesting conversation pieces when incorrect.
These are the only cars I have to ride every day and I am glad to have them and not 68s or the like. For daily commuting they are the best.
R46's are much better than that R68 crap.
The 68's are much noisier, and just ride like crap.
The R-46s are good cars for the reasons you mention. It's nice to see they've had their numerous bugs ironed out. I actually like the electronic signs.
The #7 train is my favorite line in the system and I love riding it just for the hell of it. The R-46 cars are sleek and attractive, but the redbirds do have that old school subway look. And the ones on the #7 still have the blinking lights - I LOVE those!
>>>but the redbirds do have that old school subway look.
Jersey: Ah - and do they! Glad someone else noted this. Yes, their time may soon be over and all cars will eventually be replaced, but when think of "subway" this is what comes most quickly to mind.
-cordially,
turnstiles
MisterK: All right - I'll "bite". :) This is actually a different sort of competition than the one between the Brooklyn BMT lines, and I like both lines, for a variety of reasons. Overall, my pick would be the #7 line. However, I do have fond memories of the IND Queens Blvd. line in years past.
Why the #7 line?
1) Firstly, IMHO the service on the 7 is outstanding, even when compared to the IND QBlvd. Line. On the 7, there are frequent trains at almost all times of day; on Queens Blvd local service in evenings and nights leaves a lot to be desired. This is one of the prinicipal reasons I use the 7 at such times, even if the route taken is longer or involves an extra transfer. I have literally seen seven #7 trains passing by on the (uptown) Queensborough Bridge Station before a single Astoria-bound N train arrived - yes, the competition we are discussing is between the IND and Flushing line , but this example is most illustrative of the disparity in service between the 7 and a number of other subway lines.
Concerning rush hours, On the 7, headways are as short as 2 minutes (or less - IIRC, the headways have been as short as 90 seconds in the 1970s - see Cudahy's book) with few delays. I cannot begin to tell you how many times I have been delayed outside of Queens Plaza (And other stations) on both the local and express during my evening commuting. Also, I have never had the experience of having a late local train switched over to the express tracks on the "Flushing Flyer" (barring track work, of course); this is an almost everyday rush hour occurrence on the G/R.
2) The 7 train also offers a much greater variety in terms of its ROW/route. It a deep underground route in much of Manhattan, rises out of the tunnel before Court Sq. and becomes a three-track concrete elevated railroad just before 33rd(Rawson). I have always liked this section of the line greatly - it is much quieter than most other elevated routes (both while riding in the cars and while on the streets below hearing the trains run). To my knowledge, this is also the only concrete elevated structure of any real length in the NYC subway. The route continues as a standard steel elevated (i.e. less interesting, in terms of the el structure), develops briefly into a 5-track line (when two yard lines are spun off - I have always thought that the express track running above all the other tracks at 111th Street was simply "cool", of lack of a better word), passes by Shea Stadium, and ends as an underground again.
What about the IND? - its' all tunnels, all 4 tracks (though the express splits from the local between 36th Street and 65th), always similar stations (barring the Archer Ave. branch) - all the time.
I have found that the 7 is a very scenic line, and one with destinations worth going to at almost every stop.
3) Indeed, this 7 line is a true thru-travel "trunkline". Why? What do I mean? Both of its terminals are major hubs for all sorts of transportation (Times Square: subway, bus, and close to Penn Station and PATH via underground pedestrian tunnels; Main Street: subway, buses to locales in Queens and Nassau, LIRR), AND many of its commuter passengers (i.e., not railfans) actually travel the entire route length end-to-end from Flushing to Times Square (or almost so) in regular commuting (often as only a part of their total commute) - few other NYC subway lines can claim this. And the 42nd Street shuttle does not count! :)
4) This line actually has many historical points - that are not often discussed here on this board (as compared to the frequent discourse about the Sea Beach/Brighton "debates"). The Steinway tunnels across the East River were built by the same Steinway as the fame Long Island CIty piano manufacturer. This line also has the only non-yard track connection between the IRT and BMT/IND portions of the subway - uptown just east of Queensborough Plaza. Also, this line twice hosted the World's Fair - and received special, newly-built rolling stock to take the masses there. In a sea of very similar-looking IRT rolling stock, the 1936 WF cars (the only subway rolling stock that the IRT firm purchased to have no vestibules at the car ends) and the R-33/36 WF cars really do stand out and add a variety that is (and always was) sorely needed.
5) Mentioning rolling stock...
Since of course, no discussion among railfans in complete without mentioning the trains that ply (or fly, in this case) along the route, a consideration of the rolling stock on the & train should be done. I think the R-33/36's are actually rather significant railcars (although the are coming to the end of their operational lives). Yes, most of the points listed below do apply to the R-33/36 IRT Mainline versions as well - but the R-33/36 is most closely associated with the Flushing line due to the WF variants. These R-33/36 railcars are:
1) the last non-stainless steel cars in NYC subway passenger service. Period. Sinply put, if the IRT was a mainline railroad (with significant passenger service), this fact alone would most certainly make these cars historically significant.
2) the last IRT cars manufactured by a U.S. carbuilder. (Bombardier does not really count).
3) the last IRT cars arranged in the formerly nearly universal (in NYC) married-pair configuration (excepting the 30 or so R-33 single-unit cars). The later R-62/62A's are either single or arranged in half-trains of 5 car-units.
Lesser points:
4) the last IRT cars without up-to-date door indication and indicator lights. (I am not a railroad employee and I am not too familiar with technical details here, but this is certainly signifcant operationally).
5) (R-33 WF single-units only) last NYC subway cars without air-conditioning units. (The GE R-32's have the A/C units - they just don't work.) This is obviously a negative point about these cars, but very significant nonetheless.
6) (R-33 and 36 WF versions only) last NYC subway cars to have main lighting that "blinks" when passing over brief gaps between third rails (at switches). For those who are truly enthralled by this, the best place by far to observe this today is just south of the Main Street Station.
7)the last IRT cars without full-width cabs anywhere - in any form. In other words, the last of the "old New York" subway cars on the IRT.
There are also a number of aesthetic points that about the R-33/36 WF cars that set them apart (in my eyes). One of these is the large picture windows that these cars possess - these are the longest such windows in NYC subway and provided a very clear, unobstructed view that earlier IRT cars could not. Another is the set of small round lights that operate when the main overhead lights "blink". As a young child I thought that these lights gave a nice, "high-tech" feel (i.e. an extra, "emergency" feature) when riding the cars. Today, these lights just give a unique feel to riding these cars.
So those are some reasons why the Flushing Line is my choice.
Now, about the IND QUeens Blvd. Line:
>>>It's funny. Once upon a time the Queens Blvd line was known for its speed. My dad talks about growing up in Briarwood and
being in Manhattan in no time on the E or F.
MK, I cannot agree more - the trains were much faster then.:) IMHO, the run between Jackson Heights and 71st Street was especially dazzling (much less so now). This was the IND express as it was designed to be: an unabashed high-speed straightaway. Even standing on the platforms, watching the expresses storm by on the local stations was enough to impress this fact upon one. Also, the use of the air-conditioned (and then new) blue-striped R-46's on both E and F lines at a time when most other lines were operated with graffiti trains added to the spectacle (especially when compared with the quintessentially slow N/RR and GG Queens locals!!).
Nowadays however,....
-cordially,
turnstiles
"Also, I have never
had the experience of having a late local train switched over to the express tracks on the "Flushing Flyer" (barring track work,
of course); this is an almost everyday rush hour occurrence on the G/R. "
Just yesterday I saw a G going express on the local and skipping stations.
The express dash between Union Turnpike and Parsons Blvd. was even more spectacular, according to Wayne (Mr. Slant R-40).
Hi All-
Has anyone else noticed how filthy the new tile floors are in renovated stations? I personally love the tile look....but unlike the cement platforms, they need to be cleaned periodically (those industrial push-power washers). The old platforms were virtually maint. free. Why does the MTA not clean their "new" stations?
I also noticed another example of this neglect:
In the WTC station on the "A" train, there is a floor mosaic on the mezannine level (I think it is of the globe). At any rate, It is covered with an inch thick layer of dust! If the MTA spends the money to make things look nice, why not clean it (at least weekly)?
Is this a case of employees not performing their job, or is it at the orginaztion level?
when the wet weather is over then they will clean it.
NYCT has cleaners that scrub the floor tiles. They are called HDC for Heavy Duty Cleaner. They operate a power scrubber. In addition, when mobile wash does a station they also do the tile floor. Of course, now with all the bad weather it looks like nothing is done.
When a snow emergency is called all cleaners including HDC, Mobile Wash and Track/Tile Cleaners are pulled for snow removal duty.
>>>Has anyone else noticed how filthy the new tile floors are in renovated stations? I personally love the tile look....but unlike the cement platforms, they need to be cleaned periodically (those industrial push-power washers). The old platforms were virtually maint. free. Why does the MTA not clean their "new" stations? <<<
I notice this too. I feel that the TA should STOP wasting money on tiling station floors IT'S NOT NEEDED! The old cement floors work just fine. And...they look cleaner ... longer. IMO
Peace,
ANDEE
Nah! I think the concrete floors look disgusting even when they're clean!
Seriously, I think all stations should be given tile floors, or at least SOMETHING better than concrete. The look of a station influences the way passengers treat it, almost as much as does the MTA's treatment of the place. If they look like public restrooms, then that's how they will be treated. They need to look like a place deserving respect.
Andrew
In fact, they should be fit for royalty.
One station already has a throne. Only 467 to go!
I posted here about a month ago say if R68/68A ever visited 8th Ave & Fulton Street line, I heard somebody saying that in 1991 there was a R68 on the Lefferts Blvd "A" line & it wasn't any rerouted "D" train all the signs were set to "A". Were they testing some R68/68A on the "A" line back in 1991?
I rember One time that the L train ran the R-68's just for 1 Year. That was from 1992 to 1993. TO see if the L Train could run 75 Foot cars. I rember back in 1998 doing when the 53 St line was closed after the Tracks god Flooded between Queens Plaza and Ely AVE. A R-46 was Running the D Train at 47-50 St.
Dominick Bermudez.
Must be another train: L's can't operate R-68's. Not for a year, not at all.
As for a test of R68's on the A, there's no reason to test: they know they can run 75' cars. Maybe There was a shortage of cars one day (various reasons), and they slapped an R68 on the A as a quick one day patch.
HELLO.
The R-68's did ran the L Train one time. Even the R-68A's was on the L Train too. I rember it. I saw them at Union Square Running the L Train. I did see it. it's ture. It did ran the L Train.
Dominick Bermudez.
L can't run 75 foot cars because the tunnels under the East River are too narrow, and when they turn, they scrape the side of the tunnel
Thnks for clearing that up. I knew that J/Z couldn't run them because of those 2 Sharp curves (i forgot just where) and the trains would scrape each other, and that the M's turn at metrop., where if trains came in both directions, the trains would scrape each other, but i never knew why the couldn't run them.
How did you know that?
Dominick Bermudez.
They cut up two IND R1 cars (XCR575, formerly 192 and XCR675, formerly 165) to build a 75 foot "experimental" car that plied the tunnels and byways to see what it would hit. Pictures are available here of the test cars:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/pix.pl?/slides/r1=61 and http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/pix.pl?/slides/r1=76
I guess that's because:
An R-40 is 9' 9" wide
An R-42 is 9' 9" wide
An R-44 is 9' 9" wide
An R-46 is 9' 9" wide
And an R-68 is 9' 9" wide.
It makes sense that the 75' cars are too wide for the tunnel.
Nope, that's not it. There are a couple of nasty curves between the Montrose, Norgan, and Jefferson stations which the 75-footers wouls find very tough to negotiate.
R68s also appeared in service on the "F" line in the late 1980s.
Well folks, the TA has announced it officially: G to Ct. square all times. No more complaining to deal with. Course, that means G service will get even worse that it already is.
Where you got this Info from?
Dominick Bermudez.
The Crosstown Local just got a vasectomy. It's sad.
I know. I hope these bums run the G to Church now. Cuz, the lack of 71st service is real bad, so at least they could do is make the F Culver exp again.
That means the people will start getting Rebunches over the MTA on this one.
Dominick Bermudez.
That means the people will start getting Rebunches over the MTA on this one.
What's a rebunch?
The cutback of the G Line is part of the 63 Street Tunnel plans. Where are the other parts of the plan?
The other parts are putting the F on 63rd st (Culver is the Best) and running a V train from 2nd av. Hudson St. To 71st. Continental, via 53rd st. The plan will be enacted in Late August/ September (Bridge flip must occur first.
. . . and running a V train from 2nd av. Hudson St. To 71st. Continental, . . .
That Houston St., not Hudson St.
Where did you hear this?
A notice posted at Clinton-Washington Avs. MY STOP!!!!!
BTW: Culver is the Best
Sad. Necessary, I admit, but sad. I suppose it can no longer be truly called the "Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown", as it will only make two stops in Queens. "Brooklyn Crosstown"?
:-) Andrew
It still connects Brooklyn and Queens. You don't have to change the name.
Started at Union Turnpike in Kew Gardens after a great Q46 ride.
Got an R32 E train to Manhattan. Another great fast ride.
I think one of the fastest spots on the Queens Blvd express is going Manhattan bound after Roosevelt. You whiz past 65st, and really zoom under Northern Blvd. That has gotta be the most awesome spots.
The 53rd street tubes city bound was a treat. It was fast, and all lit up with work lights.
Got off at 5th Ave, got an F train which was right behind the E. Took it to 47th and got the Q. Nice run through the dash, and we had a gusty T/O. A little faster than usual across the Manhattan bridge.
I was looking for the IRT tracks around 7th ave, I think I saw another tunnel on to the right, just before 7th ave.
Then another fast run in the tunnel. It reminds me of the 6th ave dash. Fast, even right up to a Red seconds before clearing right before Prospect Park.
A beautiful run on Brighton. Then I got off and got on a Manhattan bound Q for an equally great run. Took it to 47-50 and waited for the F. The bridge patterns are official, I saw a notice with a map posted on the window of the control room. It showed the Q, diamand Q, and W going across Manny B H tracks and on Broadway. But it was in orange!
Then I got on an R46 F and took that to Queens for yet another speedy run. Actually R46 seem to have good acceleration, I really pull back when we leave a station.
I did all of this great traveling in around 3 hours. And the Q train rocks!
I was riding the Dyre Avenue line last night, I've noticed that in this particular car, it had a open railfan window, like in the older IRT cars that were retired about 16 or 17 years ago, maybe it was a door that was replaced by an retired car.It bought back memories of my youth when I would pull down the window and the air would rush in,I tried this last night, to my suprise the window pulled down, but the air was too cold!!!!!
I got that car once, on the front of a #5 Bronx Express. I opened the window and just rested my chin on the bottom sash as the warm spring air rushed in my face.
But that ain't the only car with that type of storm door - there are a couple of others (redbirds). I've seen them also on the #5 train.
7875 for one.
The car that you mention is using a storm door that was once on an R-22 car.
BMTJeff
Sometime back in the '60's..I remember the BB being replaced by the C..from 34th & 6th to Bedford Park..and the DD replaceing the D...running local to Coney Island...(the C ran Exp)...the AA ran all the time. This change..for several months was caused ( I think)..by a flood/construction problem...anyone remember this..or can correct the above????
A date that almost lived in infamy.
I like how the TA promised to work "around the clock on a 24-hour basis."
Printed by: the department of redundancy department. Some things never change.
Peace,
ANDEE
When I found about this, I signed up my IND sign box for the C service. It was a weird-looking combination. Didn't do the DD one, however.
They must have busted that humungous water main which the 6th Ave. and PATH tracks surround.
I was still living in New York at that time and from what I remember,there was a burst water main in the new express tunnel from 34 to W4 st. I was luckly to be at the 34 st station and had to return to Eastern Queens. Got the rail fan window on a R1-9 which was on the southbound local train. It was great going thur the switches to the northbound F tracks.I guess that was once in a lifetime.
Ron J.
I a Bizzare twist of fate (ha), the C will be operating express from 145st to 59th, while the D runs local. For anyone who wants to see this, it's on weekends (i don't know how long). Apparently they are doing track work on the local tracks at 145.
I think B trains still run normal (As normal as Weekend CPW service can be)
With the recent storm cancelling flights into Boston and killing bus travel, the Bruins took Amtrak from Philly to Boston after losing to the Flyers Monday night.
Reported by Trains Magazine online. [right click to open a new window; it takes forever to load sometimes]
Lets have a subway race this summer 2001
from stillwell ave to 34 st. Do it on sat.
Date: more info later
Time: more info later
Any suggestions or comments email me.
Give me some feedback.
jorc76@holtmail.com subject: nyc subway race 2001
Lets have a subway race this summer 2001
from stillwell ave to 34 st. Do it on sat.
Date: more info later
Time: more info later
Any suggestions or comments email me.
Give me some feedback.
jorc76@holtmail.com subject: nyc subway race 2001
What are we allowed to use for the race? can we bring our own subway cars? I'd love to use a Philadelphia BS Subway car - running at 70mph
Don't start at 34th St. It isn't fair b/c the F has to make the two stops before the lines split. The question is which can get from Bway-Lafayette to CI fastest?
The N doesn t go to Bdwy Laffayette, and you can t have the B& D at the same time, except starting from Coney island. Now try to arrange it to have all 4 trains leave at the same time from Stillwell, as much as I am a Brighton Fan. I would pick the B, since it would be the only express in Brooklyn.
Well, You could say:
Let the person on the F go first. Then:
Take the Next D/N
And take the B after the D (DeKalb Bypass)
No guarantee that would be fair though.
*** First I know I am not suppose to be righting to one person but I have been having trouble with sending out E-Mails for over a mouth now so I just wanted to let him know this. So he dose not think I am just know righting back to him.
Mike
I hope you are doing good as A C/R. I will be at IS 248 in the 21st of this mouth for gruation. I know that you sould be there to, am I right. So I hope to see you there.
Robert
Sorry one more time to the rest of you.
One more thing.
Mike If you want to speek to me over the phone E-mail me it. I can still get E-mail, OK.
Robert
Sorry Again
This original (not a reproduction) item is on eBay, #1119624925; auction closes March 11th. Also IRT Pelham Bay Extension brochure, from 1918, item 1119950379, auction closes March 12th.
Kewl.
I'm going to but that bond, foreclose on the Dyre Avenue Line, and run it myself.
Any IRT cars that are on the line when I foreclose are mine! I'm going to name them all after SubTalk posters. The first will be named Heypaul.
The Brighton line was the line of my youth and because of that i have a very special attachment with it. It's also very closely linked to memories of family members who have since passed on. So I am a bit predjudiced when we discuss it but having said that - here is my totally impartial assessment of the lines.
From a railfan point of view:
West End - Elevated and at grade running - Switching south of Bay 50th St. (slip switches) and the ride between Ft. Hamilton Pkway and 36th St. hold the most railfan interest. M's have railfan windows.
Sea Beach - open cut and at grade running - Most cars have railfan windows but not much in the way of railfan interest.
Brighton - elevated and open cut running. Some cars with railfan windows. Nice outside express runs and some railfan interest around prospect Ave.
From a railfan point of view, I'd have to give the edge to the West End line.
However, as a subway line, the Brighton line and particularly the D line enjoys the highest on time performance, highest % rushhour of thru-puts and highest MDBF for the year 2000.
I had a weird consist on the 7 line today:
South Bound:
9547-9546-9308-9372-9373-9538-9539-9723-9722-9764-9765
9765-South Motor
9547-North Motor
Also has anybody noticed the number plate on end 2 of the South side of 9438 is gone? I wonder what happened to it?
R36#9438Gary
6,987 posts about whether the Brighton is better than the Sea Beach, or the other way around. Every poster here knows that New York's best train is the A Train. It is named after the first letter in the alphabet! It is the best train! It is New York! When anyone thinks of New York they think of the A Train! The train is so good that it even has a song named after it. Forget about these secondary trains, and let's talk about the best train in New York.
Let's have a cheer for the A TRAINOK?
Since rumor's abound that I may be moving over to the land of R-44s, I may have to re-assess my opinion - eventually. Until then, except for hammel's wye, the 'flats', Liberty junction and Central park west - what's so great?
The A is a great line. It offers the most varied types of running (subway,el,bridge,river tube) and the some good speeds along CPW and the Rockaways. Of course it's alot more fun on an R38 than a 44.
Although I am a Culver fan, I like the A the Best. It logs more express track mileage than any other line (xcept rush hour 5 trains, my fav. IRT line). It has cool places, like 135-145 st., CPW express, Fulton express (Don't say nuthing if you don't ride it, ok?), And Rockaway's, which has a wye, something no other line has. A line is better than any BMT, IRT or other IND line.
F Culver line is still the best BMT southern line though.
That indeed would look good on your resume if you were to ever need it. To be responsible for the maintenance of the rolling stock for the A Train, the greatest rapid transit line of any system anywhere in the world!
Duke Ellington thought so ... you don't hear of any classic jazz called "Take the Brighton Express" ... heh.
Sure cant top Originality.. nor Innovation.
I vote we proclaim an "A" Train Day. For that day, all subway trains will be known as A trains. All station signs will be papered over to read "A." Want to go to Jamaica? Take the A train to 179 St. Headed for Coney Island? The A train will take you over the scenic Manhattan Bridge to get you there.
Take it a step further. Raise the R-10s from the dead and clone them until you have several thousand.:-)
How about some really old cars, like the ones with wicker seats and open overhead propellers, er, fans (the R-1?)
Since we're bragging about songs written about certain subway lines, let me remind you one and all that there have been two or three books written about my Sea Beach. I don't recall a book about the A train, or any other trains for that matter.
>>ll that there have been two or three books written about my Sea Beach.
Fred: Which songs are these?:)
-cordially,
turnstiles
Hey' I'm all for it. I loved the R-1/9s, too. Too bad I rode them on the CPW express dash only three times.
There was also something about that determined "r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r" sound as they went by that's sadly lacking from today's choochoos ...
Well, the moans, groans, and grunts they emitted from a standing start would fit the bill. When they got rolling, their bull and pinion gears would be wailing away - music to my ears. My mother rode on a prewar D train to the Bronx in October of 1967 (she experienced the CPW express dash before I did!!!), and I remember she said it really moved. I kept thinking, when, oh when will I ever get to take an A or D along that stretch? A month later, my wish came true. The D holds the honor there. It took a while longer to ride on an A for the first time, but once that happened, it became more frequent. I was hooked.
Far better piloting those babies ... you'd just wrap it and sit back until you got to the homeball that screamed out, "game over!" ... time to shut her down ... there was nothing I enjoyed more than 59-125. And both ways were just as kewl ... the bridge though was scary and DeKalb, well ... (whoop - forgot, I worked the D) ... DeKalb was "are we ever gonna get in there?" ... though southbound wasn't as bad as northbound ... by the time you hit the platform, you'd be illegal in FRA country. Heh.
...let's talk about the best train in New York.
I thought the best train in New York was the next one leaving the City :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Years ago we had company come to visit us from Fargo, North Dakota. We asked them what they wanted to do while they were visiting in the big city. They just had two wishes.
1-Ride the famous A Train!
2-See a ballgame at Ebbet's Field!
Well ... one out of two ain't bad. :)
This happened in 1953, so they got to do both of them!
You people are idiots, the song, "Take The A train" By Duke Ellington, claims that the A train is "the best way to get to harlem" But we all know the A goes to Wash. Heights and Inwood, NOT HARLEM , the train DUKE is referring to is the IRT a, known as the 3 train Lenox Terminal. You people should get your info rechecked, as I always say, before embarrassing yourself on this board as so many people do, Hey Vandal Squad I know all about your weekend raids at Boone Ave Yard. Ha I dont care even if you did get "Spade" last week, you wont be gettin no more people there, Despite the error you made, The IND A train is the best train in the system, oh yea culver is great too, much better than stink-pus N Sea beach, or do-nuttin-right Brighton, and Idiot-neighborhood West End Line.
>>>But we all know the A goes to Wash. Heights and Inwood, NOT HARLEM <<<
Gee, and all this time I thought 125th st was in Harlem and I always thought the A train stopped there. Guess I was seeing things.
Oh well live and learn.
BTW the lyric goes... "You can take the A train, it's the quickest way to get to HARLEM."
Peace,
ANDEE
ok One should know that HARLEM DOES NOT GO ALL THE WAY TO THE WEST SIDE, WHAT DA HELL YOU THINK CPW (8ave) or whatever on the west side at 125 on the A is " UNIVERSITY HEIGHTS" , AND ALWAYS BEEN KNOWN THAT WAY, SMARTASS
I thought the lyric was "...to go to Sugar Hill way up in Harlem." That's the West Side in the 140s, around Amsterdam Ave; Hagstrom calls it "Hamilton Heights."
Indeed it is! and the west end of 125 st is IIRC Morningside Heights. University hts. in de bronck, no? Some of the lyrics are like "never mind the Broadway train, forget your car or airplane" so much for the train up Lenox. I forget exactly the line about the Broadway train but it meant the A was where its at. [Personally I liked the Bway-7th Exp. best but that's ancient history] Anyone interested should try to find the vocal version by the Delta Rhythm Boys, believe it was on Victor from the late 40's. I know I once had a 45 RPM copy of it [now on tape].Great record.
The original path of 125th Street, now called LaSalle Street was in Morningside Heights.
HOWEVER, the diagonal part of 125th Street is in Manhattanville. The whole point of the diagonal 125th Street is so it stays in Manhattan Valley!
Yes, University Heights is in Da Bronx, the current campus of Bronx Community College was once (until the 70s) the main campus for NYU.
I didn't find any reference to their Bronx past on their website. They must be ashamed.
>>> I thought the lyric was "...to go to Sugar Hill way up in Harlem." <<<
Although the lyric has been sung many ways, it is a jazz song after all, including "Take the A train, it's the quickest (or fastest, or coolest, or finest) way to get to Harlem", the "Jazz" series on PBS stated it was written by Billy Strayhorn from directions given to him about how to get to Duke Ellington's home to impress the Duke that he could write a song from anything. The original lyric as he wrote it was "Take the A train, the quickest way to get to Sugar Hill in Harlem". It did impress the Duke, and he hired Strayhorn immediately.
I do not personally know where the Sugar Hill section was, but I assume it was an upscale residential area, as opposed to either a business or entertainment area.
The commercial versions which became the Duke's signature song left out the "Sugar Hill" reference.
Tom
It was mentioned in the vocal version I have, the Delta Rhythm Boys [Sugar Hill that is]. I forget the exact boundaries but for example from where the Polo Grounds used to be you could see the northern end of Sugar Hill, I guess 145 st. was pretty much the main drag for the area. If my understanding is correct this was the part of Harlem [[or considered so by white people, I don't know the exact boundaries of Harlem] where the well-to-do black people lived years ago.
The vocal version of "Take the A Train" with which I'm most familiar is Chicago's from 1995, which has the Sugar Hill verse. IIRC, Ella Fitzgerald's version also does. Beyond that, I only know 12 or so instrumental versions, though I'll be on the lookout for the Delta Rhythm Boys :).
Hey bozo.
125th on the west side is called MANHATTANVILLE. University Heights is in the Bronx around Bronx Community College.
And the last time I looked, the heart of 125th Street was between 5th and St. Nicholas. Where is 8th Avenue (Douglass Boulevard)?
The 1/9 train doesn't go to Harlem, I'll give you that, but the A certainly goes to Harlem.
Porkster, it doesn't matter one way or the other. SeveN's looking for an argument - not enlightenment or acceptance.
BTW, Asshole, the area where Columbia University is located is called MORNINGSIDE heights. At one time it was called HARLEM Heights.
And there are no heights along 125th Street, that's why it's called the Manhattan VALLEY.
No argument from me. The A WAS the quickest way to get to Harlem when the R-10s ruled supreme, and still was when the slant R-40s took over.
>>>You people should get your info rechecked, as I always say, before embarrassing yourself on this board as so many people do<<<
UMMMM, like you just did?
Peace,
ANDEE
UHH DICK, I WAS TALKING ABOUT TRAINS, NOT THE LYRICS, GO TO WORK ITS 11:42 GET OFF YOUR ASS MAN , fastest quickest
Oh yeah, with that big mouth of yours, you'll be very popular in Rikers!! Grow a brain.
Oh yeah, with that big mouth of yours, you'll be very popular in Rikers!! Grow a brain.
SeveN might be real popular in Rikers, if you catch my drift.
HEHEHE
Peace.
ANDEE
HA HA HA, NYTPD is good but they aint that good
With that attitude, your next career will be the bride to your cellmate.
One of the primary reasons SeveN is the first name in my killfile. Jersey Mike made it there as well, 90% of his posts are junk, 10 are decent. If I want to read him I usually get it fron the follow-ups. Even our Left Coast problem child is out of the killfile, he's posting less and less, and seems to be less of problem IMHO.
Tell me something SeveN, why do you find the need to act like such a child? Do you think any of us are impressed by your immature posturing? You have one bit of information that technically may have some questionable local geographical significance and you call people names because they accept that 125th St. is Harlem. Wow, now there's a major mistake that'll keep us all out of Harvard. We're not impressed, Seven! Neither is the vandal squad. I figure with the intelligence you show in your postings, the only question is whether you'll get caught by the police or clipped by a train, first. Rikers or Bellvue morgue, god your future is bright.
By the way - how are your rail wheelers doing?
boy why am I not surprised, he responds TO EVERYTHING,
Well, yes he does respond, but Train Dude isn't going to let someone mouth some irresponsible crap and let it slide. Why should he and why should I? I don't think the way you went off on SUBWAYSURF was called for either. We're on this site to have fun and to learn. What you are doing is trying to show how much you know by bringing the rest of us down. There is no need for that. If you have info that can help us become better informed about the subway, then, by all means, tell us. But do so without trying to embarrass, humiliate or just piss us off.
I have to agree with you Freddy. And SteveN wasn't even totally correct. The A does get you to Harlem. Duke Ellington's song was mainly written because of this:
A large # of Black people had moved from Harlem to Brooklyn at the time. The A was the only train that ran between those areas of Bk., and Harlem. And, I don't care what anyone here says, the A runs to harlem. 2 freaking blocks, and SteveN is chewing people out.
yea great but its SEVEN, not SteveN, i would take the time out to spell your name correctly even though you're putting me down, yet u still manage to misspell it
OOPS. My fault SEVEN. I am kinda slow.
He ain't gonna grow up, he's just another grafitti vandal. The probability of him becoming 10-9 burger meat is quite high if he persists in playing on the subway tracks.
And he'll have the pleasure of riding in a bus with caged window over one of only two bridges in New York City on which I've never been.
What's the other one?
-Hank
The High Island Bridge.
High Island?
-Hank
What ever it is.That person must be talking about Roosevelt Island.
Dominick Bermudez.
I am not "that person." I have a name.
And yes, I am talking about High Island. Get a good map, find City Island and then look at the northeastern corner of it.
Wow. Never knew your name was pork. Did people tease you in school?
That's Mr. White Meat to you. :-)
High Island is just off City Island, in western Long Island Sound. The WCBS radio transmitter is on that island, and there is a permanent resident there (the "caretaker" of the facility).
The bridge was made of wood until it burned in a fire about three years ago. I was flying out of LaGuardia on the USAirways Shuttle, and saw the fire. I called the station and reported on it!
The bridge has since been rebuilt.
BLING BLING he's just frontin' anyway..
Peace,
ANDEE
Umm, wAit a minute, isn't that a 12-9?
NOT in NYC
Peace,
ANDEE
Well nuts to you, too. Inform us about any info that may be incorrect but calling us a bunch of idiots is no way to make friends on this site. Cool the negative rhetoric and it will help things a lot.
Last I heard, Saint Nicholas Avenue was the extreme western end of Harlem (prior to the hill that separates it from Morningside Heights a/k/a/ "white harlem") and 125th goes straight across to St Nick. Sorry but I know the neighborhood and have walked it myself in the days back before Percy Sutton and others helped to revive it in rebuilding the Apollo and struggling to revive the Audubon ... but the "A train" does stop on the western side of Harlem unlike the #1 train over in Morningside Heights ...
Might want to ride it out there and check ou the hood. Adam Clayton Powell Blvd or Park Ave it ain't, but Harlem isn't one of those vest pcocket parks either - it's big.
The 125th Street station on the Fort George line is not in any heights! Why do you think it's on an el?
I don't think he was referring to that station in particular.
That is correct i wasnt referring to specifically 125st at all but rather the extreme west of the A train and how it relates to the song by Duke Ellington, although im flattered that you people started a whole thread about me, PEACE
Stop playing on the tracks or you'll be FLATTENED.
The neighborhood around 125th on the west side is called "Morningside Heights" ... before the New York State Barge Canal was dug at 225th St (Marble Hill) the East River used to come through there. George Carlin grew up in that neighborhood BTW ...
What are you talking about? East River?
What does 125th Street have to do with Marble Hill? And what does the Erie Canal (that's what the NYS Barge Canal is) have to do with anything? Apart from being the major reason behind NYC's rise to America's primary city.
125th Street is in a deep basin between two ridges to the north and south caused by an earthquake faultine.
What are you smoking?
SeveN is just frontin'
Peace,
ANDEE
Uh, don't say BLING BLING ever again unless you learn how to use it. Some of us actually talk like that (not just steve)
I will use whatever terms I wish to use...BLING BLING..if you don't like it...TOO BAD
The more people it pisses off the better...BLING....BLING
Peace,
ANDEE
he straight too, tryin to be bad (like me) anyways I'd like some more info on exactly what the song is talking about I been told by numerous sources that the song is talking about the Lenox line (IRT 3) so i go on that (trying to get back on topic)
>>> I been told by numerous sources that the song is talking about the Lenox line (IRT 3) so i go on that (trying to get back on topic) <<<
Apparently your sources are no more enlightened than yourself with regards to American popular culture.
Tom
I will use whatever terms I wish to use...BLING BLING..if you don't like it...TOO BAD
The more people it pisses off the better...BLING....BLING
Peace,
ANDEE
How is it you can write: Peace ANDEE after a post like that, Huh dog?
And, It doesn't Piss me off at all.
You just look like some type of moron who doesn't know english OR slang.
I always questioned that signature---Peace Andee myself. And we are not exactly on friendly terms either. But I do feel what SeveN said to SUBWAYSURF was simply a low blow and very inappropriate. In fact, it pissed my off. When you get really personal it usually brings out the sense of fairness in most of us. Why SeveN started on his attack mode in the first place is a mystery. He could have answered it very simply and not gone off the deep end. Well---maybe he had a bad day.
Do what I did and killfile him.
HA straight up shit runnin', but no i aint frontin just tryin to put in my word for sakes, but cats like TrainDude , they the ones who front out like the shit they aint, oh well
Pal, You ain't a pimple on Train Dude's butt.
I see this post and I think of Barbara Billingsly in "Airplane."
SeveN, I still don't know what you are trying to say. However, when you hit Rikers let me know and I'll send you a cupcake in with a nail file in it. Not so you can escape, mind you. I just want you to look real pretty for your cellmate. By the way, SeveN, have you got an investor for your 'Rail Wheelers' yet?
Dude: Who is that guy anyway? Has he been a regular on this site? He came out swinging this morning and has made a complete fool of himself. Let's hope this is just a passing phase because at the rate he's going SeveN is going to feel like the lone ranger---no mask but stark naked before his peers.
"they the ones who front out like the shit they aint"
"I still don't know what you are trying to say"
I don't see what your problem is T.D. Obviously, you are fronting out like the feces that you are not.
This is quite possibly the stupidest thread in SubTalk history.
CG
To answer Fred, SeveN likes to hit and run. He's done this a few times before, mostly about graffiti. He stirs the stuff and then ducks for cover - likely loving the attention he gets here - attention he likely doesn't get at home.
I assume that SeveN's problem with some here on the Subtalk, including myself, is that despite our sometimes petty spats, most of us get along, most of us have some knowledge of the subject and most of all, most of us have some success in life. I suspect SeveN has few social skills and does not know how to interact without trying to show he's the baddest dog in the pack.
In the meantime, this current thread has sparked a few new spats while giving SeveN the attention he craves. Now, nothing is easier than arguing with an unarmed man and SeveN is intellectually, just that. The trouble is, SeveN is too stupid to know that he's being chastized, criticized or even insulted.
Let's not forget that the thread was started by Karl B. so let's gang up on him, too (JUST KIDDING). SeveN has sidetracked us. Now back to business. D vs A, best 2 out of 3 falls.
Gee, I don't want everyone to gang up on me...Maybe I had better leave!
To get back on Topic, here is a famous quote...
"The train roared into the station, but was it the right train? Standing on the platform, I read the front signage, 'A---Euclid Ave'. It was the right train: it was the 8th Ave Rocket, the pride of New York City, the best d*** train in rapid transit."
Being a Cypress Hills native, I believe...funny that your thoughts got to the A train. Can you stand up in defense of the J train? Haha.Guess its only claim to fame [which I appreciated] is being the longest el left in NYC, I liked it for that. But we'd both agree it wasn't any rocket. Just some humor for the weekend.. the irt man.
The Jamaica train is definately my sentimental favorite! See...I can't bring myself to call it the J. They started to call it the 15 shortly before I left, and I didn't care for that either.
Acknowledging the superiorty of the A is like admitting that day follows night. The A is without equal anywhere in the world as the ultimate way to travel by rapid transit!
Hey, Karl, that makes you my blood brother. I didn't know you felt this way about my favorite train. And I was all set to dub you "Mr. Gate Car".:-)
In my day, it was "A/Fulton-Lefferts Blvd" or "A/Far Rockaway-Mott Ave." I keep my bulkhead curtains set to "A/Wash. Hts. 207th St."
I let an A train go once at 59th St. because I didn't see any side signs. This was before I realized the R-10s had those puny roofline signs. It was also before I found out the A was all R-10s. As that train left, I saw its rear bulkhead signs and said out loud, "What luck - that was an A train!"
ha big man, you feel big by saying that, i dont even wanna begin explaining to you what i am about, social skills huh, boy oh boy, i hope that post made youfeel good train dude, made u feel like a big man, a feeling u only get on this board, i do agree with you on1 thing, lets gett back to transit
SeveN, since Subtalk doesn't seem to be your thing, here's a website that you'll likely be able to understand and make practical use of:
http://www.restrooms.org/standing.html
Dude: Priceless.
thanks steve for the link to www.restrooms.org...it has a moderated messageboard, with thoughtful posts on sensitive issues related to restrooms...
www.restrooms.org is certainly a welcome breath a fresh air....
I'm sure a lot of people drain their orgs in the restroom.
Yeah, thanks to Steve, I feel a whizz coming on...
BMTman
Necessity is the mother of 'research'. Several of the guys in my club make the 'mistake' of bringing their wives and significant others on some of our rides. Stopping to find suitable accommodations for lavatory their needs can be an arduous task. Hopefully, this site will be a significant help in speeding our journeys.
Necessity is the mother of 'research'. Several of the guys in my club make the 'mistake' of bringing their wives and significant others on some of our rides. Stopping to find suitable accommodations for their lavatory needs can be an arduous task. Hopefully, this site will be a significant help in speeding our journeys.
Necessity is the mother of 'research'. Several of the guys in my club make the 'mistake' of bringing their wives and significant others on some of our rides. Stopping to find suitable accommodations for
their lavatory needs can be an arduous task. Hopefully, this site will be a significant help in speeding our journeys.
Oh great, now women'll have to start watching out for the third rail!
Peter, apparently you don't get around much. Women urinating in the subway is not all that uncommon and the number of standees is on the 'rise'.
Peter, apparently you don't get around much. Women urinating in the subway is not all that uncommon and the number of standees is on the 'rise'.
I've seen quite a few strange things on the subway, but that's not among them ... yet.
www.restrooms.org is certainly a welcome breath a fresh air....
It may be a breath of air, but the air isn't always fresh
I don't appreciate you saying things like that to my pal Dude. You're acting like a horse's ass. Cut the crap and get civil.
You're acting like a horse's ass.
Just acting?
Let's put it this way Pork, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt, but I wonder if that was the wise course.
ROFL. This latest ebonics catch phrase has been abused beyond belief. I now use it, but only for it's original meaning.
However, I don't call women "shorties" anymore. My wife gives me the evil eye if I do.
Heh. Being whitebread, I don't know about the "bling bling thing" and would love to know what it means. I promise I won't be stupid with the knowledge ... But I have in the past admired some mighty well done grafitti when it was art ... and there was plenty of it to be found. I did a rant already on the unique redbird "jungle train" back in the early 70's which I thought was extremely pretty. 10 cars painted in a motif that truly belonged in a museum, it was GORGEOUS.
SeveN strikes me as someone much like myself when I lived in the city, proud of anything that would bring a bit of recognition, even among "homeys" that "yeah, that's me" ... NYC trivializes the individual to a point where that's possibly the only way for native Noo Yawkers to stake a claim in their home town. Still, I prefer artwork that is original and well done and a number of grafitti artists of days past have done some TRULY pretty stuff. It's the names and the streets (and yes, I actually met the guy who went by TAKI183, poor bastard's dead now) when I did radio on WBAI ... I wouldn't call his stuff "art" but who would have even known he existed were it not for him being one of the "pioneers?"
It's a shame that the city eats people and spits them out the way it does ... but among the markers, there are some TRUE artists. If only the TA, as they do for some musicians, would provide a canvass for folks who want to draw art in the subways ... it'd save a LOT of car cleaners an awful lot of work if there were someplace for people to express themselves ... sorta like a roll of canvass that could be changed on some station walls, and if you got a gem among them, the ability to tear that art off the wall and give it a more permanent exhibit space. I would PAY to see the "jungle train" art ... and words cannot describe how cheesed off I am that THAT one got painted over.
bling bling is usually used as a verb. To "bling-bling" is to live beyond your means in an attempt to appear more affluent than you really are. Someone who is bling blingin is usually the person with an expensive jacket, clothing and jewlery, but always asks you to borrow 2 dollars so he can eat lunch that day. To explain it in ebonics, you merely have to say that bling blinging is when a nigga' spends mad G's he don't got to look like a playa.
Ka-ching ... got it. Thanks!
BLING BLING is a phrase coined in Louisiana by the Cash Money Millionaires (a rap crew consisiting of Juvenil, BG, Lil' Wayne, Lil' Turk, Baby, Slim, and Mannie Fresh). It refers to shiny platnium teeth, platnium jewlery and watches and shiny car rims. This is usually what they rap about, besides women and a bit of violence.
Here's a little more slang...
Ice-Platnium
Rocks-Jewlery or Drugs
The Roc-Rocafella Records
Playa-Referring to a normal man or a man of many women
Pimp-A man of many women who controls them
Garden Tool-Woman
Chicken Head-Annoying Girl
Head-Um, I think you know
Gat-Gun
Glcok-Gun
Strap-Gun
Pop Trunk-Geting gun and shooting
Heat-Gun
Scrub-Poor and/or annoying man
There, that's my 2 and 1/2 cents.
Thanks for the "lil'" bit of epi- epid- um, er, epidem- well, you know, the history and meaning of a word! Always assumed it had to do more with "gats", like the sound made by pulling the slide back or popping in a new clip. -Peace, Thomas
Yes, platinum everything is a necessity for anyone who can be claiming to "bling bling"
This ends this bizarre conversation which started with the A train and now ENDS here ...
I appreciate the comments of someone who finally knows and attempts to understand what I try to stress. Why Me and My friends do this Art and why does it relate to NYC transit. Because its a part of history that is ignored , not just a part of history of NYCT but also NYC and its past and we need to look back at it and see how far we came from the 70s and 80s, how this city rised up and cleaned up and what it is now and what an effort it was to bring it here. I come from a place (in NYC i choose not to disclose) where hope doesn't really shine through as much, where getting by thu the day is an accomplishment all on to itself, and this oppression is why I have chosen to put my god given gift, a gift of hand control combined with creativety (drawn ART) into an advertisement to the world that there is a place like this in our own great country AMERICA, this place we call the "inner city" and all i want people to know is that there are great minds there, potential leaders and people who can, if granted belief, can become positive influences to society. that is the reason Graffito-Tagging or graffiti was developed by kids of the ghetto , to express and put an idea of hope in their hands, where the rest of the world looks down on them, as rejects, and retards, criminals, vandals, destroyers, burdens of society, I see youth get waisted, never given a chance , only because of certain stereotypes and prejudices people think up, for no real reasons at all. Thats what this whole movement was and IS about, its bold and known that is why it has international recognition now, all started right here in NYC. Not just graffiti but Hip - Hop and Break Dancing and Cut-DJing all these things a part of NYC and its history and impact on the world. Only in this city is there a colage of great minds and ideas where kids, just kids dreamt up of putting colorful murals on subway trains, who would have thought, sometimes you just have to stop and think about it. What is sad is some people dont give it a chance, some people dont understand why these kids took up vandalism . These people better wake up and see what is around them. Because these kids today are the future, the next generation of people to take upon this city, country, world. But we need to give everybody a chance. In this land of opportunity, NO one NOO one should ever be denied that. opportunity . to use it you need potential and these kids are potential. but i can only SQWAK for so long i'll stop writing now.
Wow this is getting long but im glad to get my word in
Oh yea by the way to the fan of Graffiti, Me and My crew came back from Miami Beach Florida 2 weeks ago where we participated in an art expo where graffiti (street art) was represented. Auctions were held and our work sold, Some %age goes to charities (if you need any more info on this or just curious feel free to e-mail me)
I just dont uunderstand some of these snobby ignorant people we have on this board. nontheless this is america, where everyone is entitled to an opinion no matter how stupid.
Take Care
Seven and the Grand Concourse Writers
Very intriging post...
BMTman
You're welcome ... I do understand it all mainly because I was around and not too old to know what it was about the last time it went around. And yes, your description of the motivations is front and center. Over the years, I saw some lovely work, even more on the blank walls of buildings passing by on els. Of course, nowadays any blank brick wall has been covered up with COMMERCIAL grafitti, but that's somehow OK. :)
And that's the word today for you and your buds ... there is MONEY to be made and the rules have changed and thanks to the internet, nobody knows if you're a dog, how old you are or where you put your head at night. There IS hope now and if you can draw, it's yours for the taking without having to worry about slipping on a third rail or being busted.
Something you might think about is getting you one of those free web sites from places like angelfire.com or yahoo or one of the others, learn a bit of HTML so you can compose the layout the way YOU want it and EXHIBIT some of that art, especially that art that isn't in a place where putting it up on the net is going to match vandalism to an individual. Once you have art on exhibit on the web, be it drawn on one of these little digital toys, or a scanned in photo of something more real out there, you can then invite people to come browse your work and your message.
Put together enough of this and you can contact some of the ad agencies out there and offer your talents as a commercial artist, painting what others want painted up. Unlike the 70's or 80's where none of this existed and your work could only appear in your own neighborhood or on a rolling billboard, the whole world can now see art and the expressions you want to get across. And if you're REAL good at what you do, people will come to you looking for artwork and they don't care where you are as long as you're good.
I was born in Riverdale (BX) before the apartment houses went up, back when it was mostly railroad people that lived there. Later I lived on 230th near Broadway across from the Marble Hill projects, then spent some time on Webster Ave and 204th, and settled back to Sedgewick and Kingsbridge. Lived for a short while on East 5th in Manhattan (a real dive) and had friends all over Brooklyn too. I was lucky enough to get OUT of the city and now live upstate halfway between Albany and Schenectady. I make my own living on the internet writing software but you could do the same with your artwork.
In other words, don't let the way things are fool you - with talent that you can sell, you can live wherever you want once the world knows you're there and a personal web site where you and your buds can exhibit your work would be a great way to start. Once you have a site, you can then bring it to the attention of others and you're off and running. Might take five years to get established, but there's never been a better way to break the chains ... ya gotta believe and you'll be able to do it too.
And as to the "iggorant" just remember, it takes someone with talent to not be somebody else's wage slave ... The only man who can put you down and keep you down is yourself. I just wish more folks understood that. Don't let the city get ya. :)
HA thanks for tha input, but the way we already host a web site, thanks anyways.
Damn! Behind the curve again ... nurture that puppy though cuz that can get you out of the city ... glad to see you've got the sidewalk act that gets you to the escape hatch. :)
So you take your acts of vandalism, describe them with pseudo-intellectual claptrap and a few liberals break out the violins and tin cups. Understand this - however you justify you acts, if you put graffiti on property that does not belong to you, you are a criminal. Let me repeat it, although I suspect you'll hear this much of your life, YOU ARE A CRIMINAL!
For those who may not see it that way let me remind you that if you use the false argument of freedom of expression to justify one crime, then you can use it to justify all crime. (A young man who was abused by his mother or sister claims he's raping women to express his anger for the way women have treated him or murder your boss because your salary was unfairly garnisheed and the company didn't back you.) When you trivialize one law you trivialize all laws.
But seven, if you are so proud of your work, if you think your argumenst are legally defensible, come out. Stand up like so many others before you who went to jail in support of their beliefs, to fight the tyranny of others. Come foward, seven. Proclaim yourself proudly. Then I'll know you are a man who stands on principles and not a boy who hides behind excuses.
As much as I try to get long with you, you come shining thru like an ass glistening with fresh diarrhea. Sorry Fred, I tried.
Here's what I should've stated. As hard as I try to get along with you, your colors come shining thru like an ass glistening with fresh diarrhea. I'm no "liberal" as you like to call people, but give the kid a break. You may be trying to act "hard" and be a real "Noo Yawker" or wherever the hell you're from, but it doesn't impress me and frankly I don't give a fuck. I don't know how hard your life was, and don't care, but there are people who do have hard lives and if they're commiting petty crimes (compared to others) like subway grafitti and that's all they're doing let them. At least the dedicated artists don't have time to kill anyone or rob someone. You, with your two-bit brain don't seem to be able to comprehend such simple logic. You know, if I got some of you on my shoe, I'd use a piece of shit to scrape you off. Get a damn life and get off your fake-ass conservative agenda. No one gives two and a half shits about how conservative or hard-nosed you're trying to be.
Sorry Sea Beach, I tried.
Hey, RTS, I AM a liberal who agrees with Train Dude. who. BTW,is one ot those in MTA management who is responsible for maintaining the subway car fleet. In his job he has to total up the cost of repairng vandal related damage. This money could be put to better use providing more subway service. That having been said, the techniques used to create grafitti are capable of producing great artistic expression. The line between CRIME and ART is PERMISSION. But, Dude, don't fall into the Rush Limbaugh trap, Liberal doesn't equal bad. And, RTS, that wasn't Train Dude you were looking at it was a mirror. Walk a mile in Train Dude's shoes. A badly grafittied subway train can easily cost thousands of dollars to clean. Artists win the affection of their communities Artist or perpetrator, The choice is yours. Now, RTS, wash your face, I see something glistening.
I read that same thing in turnstiles post, except it was alot better written. Train Dude basically trashed the guy, forever labeling him a criminal, while turnstiles, gave him support while at the same time informing him of what he was doing wasn't exactly right. If Train Dude had done that, it would've gone over very well. I know they have history, but there was no reason to dash the guy's hopes like that. In retrospect, I regret being that harsh and will not do so from now on. But I think you at least half-way see my point.
While I accept the gesture of the apology, I don't see your point. Yes, I was hard on SeveN. He and people like him do an average of $23,000 in damage each month to my cars. In addition, he's taunting the police to catch him. I'd say he deserved what he got and maybe more. Oddly enough, SeveN never sought to respond to my criticism. Having said that, where do you come in? The way you responded, one would think I trashed your grandmother. If you object to the message, there are ways civilized people can convey the message without the barrage of obscenities and insults. I know that you said that you apologize and I'll let it go at that. I sincerely hope that in retrospect, you don't see the purpose of your attack either.
Dude: RTS 1250 does come on strong sometimes but he is a all right guy once he cools off. I found that out. I think the difference between the two of you is more in tone than in philosophy. Hell, he and I were going at it full force a little over a month ago and now we get along just fine. I do agree that if I had your job I would not cotton to someone despoiling the trains. I wonder if there was a possibility of when trains are retired some of them can be put in a yard where they would allow some of the artists to h ave a whack at them for artistic sake. It might not be posssible but it is a thought.
I dont think I'll live to see the day that The Transit Museum will recognize over 20 years of significant NYC transit history.
Unfortunately you won't, given that it's officially "vandalism" no matter how pretty it is ... they'd have to also put on exhibits of drug-dealing, drive by shootings and other activities that are frowned on to make such palatable. Some of us like myself did appreciate some of the genuine "art" that would appear every now and then but a lot of people who did grafitti did mark up some pretty whack stuff. Hopefully the few who DID do some art, didn't cover glass, and didn't just scratch up a car for sheets and giggles or boredom might get recognition some day but I wouldn't hold my breath.
That was one of the reasons I was wondering if you were making use of the net, nobody's going to drop dime (quarter?) on ya for that. :)
The real question is, "If a tree falls and no one hears it, does it make a sound? In other word, for the unenlightened, If the TAs official policy is to take trains with mural type graffiti out of service immediately for cleaning, and virtually no one sees it, what's the point? In the early 80s, the mural of Tina Turner became a favorite of the public's. That R-10 rode for weeks - untouched. That was art and it was seen. Todays multi-colored tags are not art and they are NEVER SEEN. So what's the point?
No argument from this end ... back before that was policy, I remember riding on some horrible, ugly trains ... my only point was that SOME of them were pretty, most weren't and I understood WHY some people did the grafitti. That was then, this is now. I *do* understand ... I got off on this kick more for the nostalgia issue. I also remember a time when Times Square wasn't a mousetrap either. :)
Now train dude, you work for the MTA, if shit didnt happen (im not saying it should) WHat do you care you'd be out of a job, hell no more benefits, Union, Health Care, Retirement, and all that crap all you nice folks at MTA get. My cars, boy thats rather personal
Some people take pride in their work. (that's work, not vandalism)Train Dude holds a fairly senior management position with MTA because, in part, of that pride. DAMNED RIGHT THEY ARE HIS CARS!
HUMOR WARNING ... just kidding here ...
Is he anything like that guy who "owned" the "money train" in the movie? Heh.
Yo, SeveN, it's something you never heard of. It's called taking pride in your work. My fleet IS the best fleet in the city because I take pride in it, the other managers take pride in it, the supervisors who work for me take pride in it and the hourly employees that work for me sure take pride in it. When were you ever the best at anything? Yeah - seven, it is personal. Oh and by the way, I have no union or union benifits, loser.
Dude: Then you must have some idea of how I feel. You at least work for the MTA and have a stake in how it runs and the pride others attach to it. I have nothing to do with the New York Subway except as a fan, but I get very defensive about the Sea Beach line which I identify with as my own personal train. SeveN may someday understand the pride to which some of us attach to our pet projects. I'm sure he will get religion.
Fred, yes, I do understand how you feel. Perhaps it's closer to my own feelings than you would imagine. The D line is a source of pride for me because of my career but my feelings for the line run much deeper. The Brighton train is very much a part of my personal history, my youth and a link to beloved members of my family who are no longer with us. My personal history and the D line have wound around each other like two vines, for almost a half a century.
Enough said. You do understand completely how I feel. That message of yours could have been by me about the Sea Beach. I should tell you, though, that the Brighton was my second favorite line as a kid. In fact my favorite station in the whole system was Prospect Park. I used to get a real high when he stopped there in the summer because two blocks away was Ebbets Field, and there is no other sports team that I have ever loved or ever will like the Brooklyn Dodgers. I loved them more than the Sea Beach.
Of course, your beloved Triplexes ran on the Brighton as well as well as the Sea Beach. Couldn't that be part of reason you liked the Brighton?
Yes Steve, you are correct. I loved those Triplexes and when I saw one it reminded me of the Sea Beach, so there is a connection. Sometimes, though, the B Standards were also used on the Brighton Express and when I had to ride them it was a real bummer because they reminded me of the 4th Avenue Local, the train I despised the most.
ok man would you like me to list my life time accomplishments? I am not that old in fact if u care i would even tell you my age, and i think i have accomplished more then trhe average person my age truthfully speaking, wow train dude, working for the MTA and being salaried, boy certainly not the fashion
I don't want this to evolve into a personal debate between us to the exclusion of everyone else. However, let's look at where we both are right now. We're on Subtalk - are we not? I've done several other things in life and qualified to do still others. The thing is, SeveN, I've always loved the subway system, from as far back as I can remmeber. So here I am, doing a job that I love, making a fairly nice salary, and i have the largest set of trains in the USA to play with. I hope that when you reach my age, you'll be as satisfied with your professional life. As for the rest, SeveN, I have a loving wife, a wonderful daughter, lovely grandchildren, an adequate number of close friends, a dog, a house, several cars, several motorcycles and a large electric train set. I'm not concerned if it's fashionable - it fits me and it's comfotable.
I would say that's something to be envyed. Too many of us hate our jobs & complain about them every day. What a lousy way to spend so many of your waking hours.
I appreciate what I have here & happen to like what I do.
There are some here who like to criticize. You make a good target, some times you ask for it, BUT none here should dispute the fact that you care pasionaitely about your job and the service that the TA provides. I say good for you !
Mr t__:^)
Im so very glad sincerely to see some people on this board with an open mind and hlaf intelligence at least, biggotry, is what I call it, even though I understand Train Dude's point of view, I think he could have at least faked it and put it in a more intelligent less conflict-inducing way,
Okay - let me put it in terms that you may possibly understand. You are not qualified to make such an evaluation about how small and petty a crime graffiti vandalism is. Do you pay taxes that, in part, go to pay for the repair of the damage caused by miscreants like SeveN? Obviously not! Have you ever been late for work - trapped on a train that is being held because it clipped a graffiit vandal? Obviously not! Have you ever had to scrape the remains of one of these artists from the wheels and shoe beams of a subway train? Obviously not! Have you ever smelled the stench of burning flesh before they kill the 3rd rail power? Obviously not! Have you ever seen the parents of one of these vandals on finding out that their precious child was minced by a million pounds of steel? Obviously not. Are you aware how many millions of dollars railroads and other agencies are sued for each year by grieving families because of this harmless activity? Obviously not!
Let me tell you something, jason. You can say you tried to "get along with me". I couldn't give less of a damn whether you do or you don't. We don't and never will travel in the same orbits. I happen to have a different opinion on this subject than you do. The fact that you can't handle that difference without trying to insult me is sad thing. It's a sad commentary on your lack of maturity and ability to stand up like a man. It's also curious that you choose to attack me (two times now) for things I post about other people. Do you see yourself as some great avenger of the internet? Why don't you post something original, jason, about trains, and let people respond to you. Then you can defend yourself.
You see, jason, there's very little about this subject that I'll ever learn from you, hence, I don't care what you think about me or my conservative viewpoints. The fact that you choose to defend a petty criminal who attempts to taunt the police speaks volumes of your ethics and morality. The fact that you're on subtalk when you are in school speaks volumes more of your character and intellect than I could. So you just keep checking the bottom of your shoes, jason. It seems that's where you'll be finding your future - shoveling it!!!
Sorry Fred - I couldn't care less......
Feel the love!! As Rodney King said, "can't we all just get along?"!Graffitti probably is an art, but certainly one that belongs on canvas and not on the side of a subway car, where it's application is in fact a crime. Please all, lets stop the hating and get back to the usual "my line is better than your line", "The Yanks are goin all the way again this year" and the "disaster narrowly averted on the ___
Subway system today" banter, can we? Now while we all certainly have rights to our perspective opinions, we must take care not to offend or force our views on others. So to all involved, kiss and makeup!!!
Peace and God bless all of you, Thomas :-)
I'm sorry I even started this thread now. I'm not even going to read Train Dude's response becuase I'll just get riled up. We'll just agree to disagree from now on.
The fact that you're on subtalk when you are in school speaks volumes more of your character and intellect than I could.
While I don't agree with his views (I agree with YOURS), I say he's bored with the cerebral laundromat and tries to get educated from someplace interesting.
Only the most dimwitted person enjoys the detergent doled out at the cerebral laundromat.
To add:
It speaks volumes of his intelligence and character that he can use his break (wow, and I thought that every minute at school was spent in the brainwashing machine, euphemistically referred to as a "classroom") to read some interesting discourse on this board and try to recover from the horrors of what they pass off as learning.
Pork: You seem to have a good understanding of NY geography and to have more than a passing interest in many historical trivias around New York. So my question for you is , why did you not like your schooling? Did you enjoy your history, geography, or social studies classes? Just wondering - I'm not saying anything about the school system here right now.
-cordially,
turnstiles
I liked my school. Most of my hatred is in retrospect, and is against the concept of schooling in general.
The one thing I truly detested was homework.
If homework truly affected your performance in class, why penalize someobody for not doing it? Wouldn't it show up elsewhere? Of course, it didn't. Teachers only assigned it because that's the way things are supposed to be done. You know how I hate things that are done only because they were always done that way.
Schools are there for two reasons: The single most important one is to act as a babysitter, the second one is to brainwash people to be loyal to the regime. The second one is not so pronounced in the US.
High School was only made compulsory during the Great Depression. Why? Because they wanted teenagers to be taken away from the labor force so more jobs could created. The age of eighteen as the age of majority is horribly anachronistic. Todays curfews and zero tolerance laws are more evidence of this.
And as for people who think that abolishing school would destroy civilization: the literacy rate in Massachusetts, the first state to adopt compulsory schooling, was higher before it was instituted, then now.
Wow, you're pretty well learned for someone who is against schooling. I do feel you on the homework though.
I have to say, I did learn a few things in school.
However I learned a few things by reading the textbooks but still not paying attention in class. The only time I ever learned something from the classroom is if I had a great teacher. But even so, one has to WANT to learn. Our industrial age school system ends up alienating people by not giving them the right treatment (I was bored until high school because I was too advanced, then I didn't know how to work the school system).
The school system was designed to churn out a series of drones for the factories of tomorrow. Totally unfit for the information age.
As a high school teacher let me give you my take on homework. I believe it is of sound importance if a few guidelines are followed.
1. It should be of short duration (10-15 minutes).
2. It should not be busywork but directly related to the material given in class that is used for tests and quizzes.
3. Never give homework over the weekend
4. Give at least two days to complete it since the students may be overloaded in their other classes.
I have had close to 100% completion of the homework assignments I give in my US History classes. The students actually enjoy doing it because it's manageable, timely, and germaine to the info we are studying in class. They know it will supplement their class work and help them get better grades.
Fred, let me tell you something very interesting that happend today. One of my true rewards is when I work with hourly employees that show interest, dedication and promise and they go on and get promoted. Last week two of my CTAs (cleaners) were promoted into a "Car Maintainer Trainee" program. Today was their first day of the 18 month program that will lead to their becoming Car inspectors, Car Maintainers or Road Car Inspectors. The two (Valerie & Willy) called me during their lunch break - waving their white flag franticly for help. One of the things they do on the first day is give a comprehensive math test to see where everyone is. Now everyone knows that Trig and algebra are necessary when looking at AC circuits. The concensus of the class was "If I knew I would have needed this crap, I would have paid attention in class." Anyway, it looks like this weekend and next we're going to get together and (even though I never taught math) it's back to school for both of them.
Valerie, Willie and Co. will be sure to give the message to their kids to pay attention in class. Lesson learned. Interesting story, and you can tell them for me that hard work in class pays off almost always. But, then again, they know that by now. Have a great day Dude and keep those people plugging away.
There's no shame in admitting you don't know something. Open the books, learn, and then apply the lesson. Now it's in your toolbox.
I wish your future Inspectors much luck with their work.
Paying attention in school always pays off, but it's never too late to learn something.
I bet you'll do a better job than the NYC schools. Education and transportation (net of fares and tolls) are two of the things we DON'T spend money on, relative to other places. Parks, recreation and culture are a third.
Seriously, maybe our resident math tuitor could help out.
Wouldn't that be something. A SubTalk learning experience to a non-subtalker. I know just the room where the class could be given.
Dave has created a monster here.
Mr t__:^)
Noooooooo - not the cab.:-)
Yes! That's the kind of homework that's useful.
Now, what do you do if somebody doesn't do an assignment? once? occasionally, chronically?
That's my beef with homework. If homework truly helps with the classwork, then not doing it would cause the person to perform poorly in other areas, making homework grades redundant.
That, and teachers who penalize people who don't do homework, but don't reward people for doing it.
I didn't even read your response, I just posted to apologize. My anger stemmed from occurences on the sister board BusTalk. Instead of pointing out what I had a problem with in your post, I just resorted to cursing and such. But here it is...
I know you and Seven have history, but resorting to a personal attack as basically calling him a criminal for life was not called for. You could've gotten to the point better than that I feel. Turnstiles did, what stopped you? Also, I know you were pretty much badmouthing "liberals" when you mentioned them as I assume you're not too fond of them. There was really no need to do that as they can have an opinion of Seven just as you can.
I know it looks as if I'm the pot calling the kettle black, but I did apologize. I don't think you or Seven aplogized to each other yet so I do have a little leeway to say something on that.
I didn't even read your response, I just posted to apologize. My anger stemmed from occurences on the sister board BusTalk. Instead of pointing out what I had a problem with in your post, I just resorted to cursing and such. But here it is...
I know you and Seven have history, but resorting to a personal attack as basically calling him a criminal for life was not called for. You could've gotten to the point better than that I feel. Turnstiles did, what stopped you? Also, I know you were pretty much badmouthing "liberals" when you mentioned them as I assume you're not too fond of them. There was really no need to do that as they can have an opinion of Seven just as you can.
I know it looks as if I'm the pot calling the kettle black, but I did apologize. I don't think you or Seven aplogized to each other yet so I do have a little leeway to say something on that.
I am not sure but I think I still have some doubts about Train Dude's point of view on graffiti and vandalism. I don't think that seven is a criminal or will be one for life. I do agree with Train Dude though in his rebuttal to you. Your attack was unwarranted. I think the appology was warranted and shows you can stand up as a man. Next time count to ten before posting :)
Jay: I got myself involved because I saw a little of myself in RTS 1250's response. I have been guilty of jumping to conclusions and flying off the handle. I'm trying to control that and have been more successful of late. That is why I am trying to keep peace on this site between the warring camps. Your response was very good and I hope we can keep the flamage down to a minimum.
I do apologize if I have offended anyone, I just have my opinion on things. This is an Internet message board a place for people to express their opinions and I am glad everyone is doing that, but never should anything be offensive, if you pay attention to my posts, i take it very seriously to see that nothing I say offends anyone personally. Thank You SeveN and Grand Concourse Writers
Have you ever seen the parents of one of these vandals on finding out that their precious child was minced by a million pounds of steel?
Here's what Mom and Dad (in the unlikely event there is a Dad) think:
Oh, the little b*stard's dead, let's shed a few crocodile tears to make it look good, we'll call the crooked personal injury lawyer* in the morning - money money money!!
* = I realize that by saying "crooked personal injury lawyer," I was being redundant. Sorry.
unlikely event there is a dad? what da fuck is that supposed to mean, kids do graff because they have bad families? or they are in poor environments? is that the reason they do Graffito-Tagging? you stupid fool, its a hobby, its a past time, its a reason, its an ART. you brainless fruit it has nothing to do with anything. How could you post something like this, you evil, i swear, look at this people, how can u disagree with me at least on this
Calm down Seven. That kind of posting will get you know where, even though I do understand your point. I was going to say something to Mr. Rosa on that, but I was afraid I was going to get lambasted with statistics and stuff.
Much as I...uh... disagree with the method you presented this, i must say you are right.
cool, sanity
SeveN,this is the statistic that Peter was referring to. I'm going to quote one statistic that was published recently in several national publications and referred to by some very prominent black leaders. It is not meant to be racist or sexist. It is not meant to put any race down or perpetuate any stereotypes. The statistic I read was that 66% of all (black) children born in the US last year were born into single-parent homes. As much as I disagree with Louis Farrahkan, this is one trend that he is trying to reverse and in this effort, i applaud him.
( off topic ) there are a lot of the american population that arer born to single-parent-homes & this has more to do with the
" poverty & lack of money thing " & less to with race creed & or color etc. poor whites tend to have this happen to them as well,
the out-of-wedlock births & as for US born black children I do suspect the 66% it may be more like 40% ( still to much )
but not exclusive to just the black american. Fatherless homes in the US is on the rise & this includes all type of folk(s)!
As for your last line there are many black representatives who speak out on the subject of too many single-parent-family-homes.
Now ( back on topic is someone will answer this with a straight face please! ) .........................................
While I am here what is this about the 142s taking over the # 2 irt line ?? or is " mr pig " the only one who sees this ??
Salaam, without beating this pore pony, I don't disagree with you that single parents can be found in copious amounts in all groups. I was just quoting the statistic as it was reported - most recently by Montel Williams.
As for the R-142s - Unionport yard looked like a parkinglot as recently as Sunday afternoon. I don't see them running on the 2 in any great quantiny yet.
SeveN,this is the statistic that Peter was referring to. I'm going to quote one statistic that was published recently in several national publications and referred to by some very prominent black leaders. It is not meant to be racist or sexist. It is not meant to put any race down or perpetuate any stereotypes. The statistic I read was that 66% of all (black) children born in the US last year were born into single-parent homes. As much as I disagree with Louis Farrahkan, this is one trend that he is trying to reverse and in this effort, i applaud him.
I actually hadn't been thinking in racial terms at all. As I told SeveN, I made the "in the unlikely event there is a dad" comment because of the well-proven fact that children from single-parent homes are statistically more likely to commit crimes, and subway graffiti, far from being "art," is a crime.
Peter, you are correct and I apologize. Nowhere did you raise the issue of race. It seems that SeveN & I both jumped to the same incorrect conclusion. Now there's a scary thought.
i am not black by the way
Now why would you raise that as an issue. I don't think that i ever alluded to your nationality in any of my responses to you. By the way, I already strongly suspected that you are not black although you seem to try very hard to to make us believe otherwise. I suspect that you are eastern european? Close?
HAHA wrong
I said "in the unlikely event there is a dad" because it has been proven time and time again that children from single-parent homes are more likely to commit crimes. A quick search on Yahoo or Google should find you all the statistics you need. And guess what? Subway graffiti IS a crime.
ok my parents have been happily married for 20 years, and iam not black, and to presume that i am is very racist of some people, im gonna tell you, my crew of 7 people 5 of us are black , what do u wanna say now ? any more racist crap ? come on guys i m up for it , biggots, and they call me ignorant, criminal , whatever,
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
This post is going somewhere fast!! It sure solves our life's problems. Let's tar and feather the guy at the same time. Haven't seen that done in a couple of years.
ok my parents have been happily married for 20 years, and iam not black, and to presume that i am is very racist of some people, im gonna tell you, my crew of 7 people 5 of us are black , what do u wanna say now ? any more racist crap ? come on guys i m up for it , biggots, and they call me ignorant, criminal , whatever,
People call you a criminal? Well, SeveN, if you and your "crew" go around putting graffiti on subways, you are criminals.
Pardon me folks for just dropping this one in here in the thread - couldn't find the message from Train Dude (who has also earned my respect for his restraint in the passion of agency employment - I worked for the PSC before the wife and I started a software company so I have "served" in the same manner as you for the Paturkey [PEF, Albany, Department of Public Service]) ...
Not to be involved with the grafitti issue since I never did that, I do have pangs of guilt over my own conduct in being part of a party of three 15 year olds who stole a southbound IRT Broadway local from 242 on a Saturday morning in the summer back in 1965 (as best as I remember) and taking a ten car consist of geese southbound to 191 Street, making all stops to Dyckman. I was not the motor, however.
Musta been one of those potty breaks, but the motorman left his bag of works on the platform where the doors were open and it was an "attractive nuisance" to us kids who were railfans way back when. Since all of us knew the ins and outs, spending our lives living for the subway (not to mention parents and friends' parents who showed us how to do it innocently enough) and loving it more than anything else, we took over the train. We all took handle time, and the conductor never knew the train had been hijacked until we missed the board at 225 St, and with police cars chasing us shortly after that, we ABD'd about 500 feet short of 191 while we beat a hasty retreat up to the street.
Folks may wonder why I was lenient and almost out of character over SeveN's number ... well ... that was because as far as I see it, what I did was a HELL of a lot worse and put a large number of innocent civilians in a hell of a danger by what we did that Saturday. In the greater scheme of things as I see it, marking up cars is hardly as egregious an offense by comparison ... just so everynody knows where I was coming from with my words.
That's also why I always felt a sympatico with that kid a few years ago who stole an A train, and did just dandy until he hit a timer in Washington Heights and got busted. There, but for God, go I ... hope you guys understand. Like I've admitted a few times here, "I took a train once but they made me put it back" [Groucho Marx] ... some of the trespassers who can't find a better gig can make decent TA hires. I washed out, and quickly ... but to me, there's a reason I still love the subway even though I left the city about 30 years ago ...
But I've been a straight arrow since ... there's always hope for subway criminals ... hell, I was one once upon a time. I'm lucky, I never got busted ... and the statute of limitations is up. :)
T"hat's also why I always felt a sympatico with that kid a few years ago who stole an A train, and did just dandy until he hit a timer in Washington Heights and got busted. There, but for God, go I ... hope you guys understand. Like I've admitted a few times here, "I took a train once but they made me put it back" [Groucho Marx] ... some of the trespassers who can't find a better gig can make decent TA hires. I washed out, and quickly ... but to me, there's a reason I still love the subway even though I left the city about 30 years ago"
It's unfortunate that the lack of discipline which led the kid to steal the A train also led him to be involved later in a violent felony incident. Now he's not going anywhere. If he had gotten some guidance when he needed it, things might have turned out OK.
But I do understand your feelings.
That is a shame and agreed ... most kids that age simply don't consider or just don't know the repercussions - in my own case, I got straightened out pretty quickly by a method that I doubt is still in use today in the city - "backseat justice" at the hands of the 50 and 52 in the Bronx ... drive you around the corner, explain to you that you're not worth the paperwork and then beat the crap outta ya. I managed to turn out OK and didn't wind up with a record. But I still remember what a putz I was as a kid and how lucky I am that I didn't go the wrong way. Getting out of the city also helped me a lot. Less exposure to temptation and that kinda mind trap a lot of kids get into where they can't see any way out.
"I got straightened out pretty quickly by a method that I doubt is still in use today in the city - "backseat justice" at the hands of the 50 and 52 in the Bronx ... drive you around the corner, explain to you that you're not worth the paperwork and then beat the crap outta ya."
That has been known to work. Here's the problem: The cops who dealt with you may have had your best interests at heart in the long run. Today, though, you risk letting a bad cop put a nightstick up somebody's rear end (Abner Louima) and that makes the whole department less effective.
That situation was way beyond the limit ... what I got a dose of when I was 16 was the "you really don't want to do this again" mode. One doesn't need to go to such extremes usually to make such a point. But you're right, I can see it getting that far out of hand as something that must never happen again.
"That situation was way beyond the limit ... what I got a dose of when I was 16 was the "you really don't want to do this again" mode. One doesn't need to go to such extremes usually to make such a point. But you're right, I can see it getting that far out of hand as something that must never happen again."
What you got was from cops who might have had at least a basic understand of right and wrong. With 41,000 cops on the force now you have such a wide variance of experience and judgment that it really becomes a crapshoot - that's why I would prefer NYPD err on the side of safety...
Agreed ... told ya I was lucky. And no, I sure don't advocate that as a solution either. But had that not happened in my case, I probably would have ended up doing time before I finally answered the cluephone. Some kids are bored and do some really dumb things. I did.
Hey, you and me both. At seven years of age I used to sometimes "copy" other kids and throw stones at cars. Nothing happened until I learned about "leading." Then, I hit the passenger door of a Volkswagen bug. The driver stopped and told me he'd take me to jail if I ever did it again. I stopped doing it.
Some people get "the cure" before it's too late. Some don't.
>>> a method that I doubt is still in use today in the city - "backseat justice" <<<
It may be still in use some places but modern technology, specifically the compact video camcorder has reduced it quite a bit. The very right wing conservatives in Los Angeles back in 1992 thought police brutality would be non-existent if only those darn camcorders could be banned so it would just be the word of a "criminal" against that of a police officer.
Tom
ok fine whatever, Thanks I guess, I am a criminal, if thats what it takes to get my message accross and get a rush doing it, then fine, im a criminal,
ok fine whatever, Thanks I guess, I am a criminal, if thats what it takes to get my message accross and get a rush doing it, then fine, im a criminal,
When some huge buffed-up thug at Rikers is making you his very special "bottom," you can console yourself with the thought that you got your message across via subway graffiti. Hope you have a pillow to sit on during mealtime.
.... not even worth it
I disagree with you. Yes there are SOME (as SelkirkTMO) already mentioned) that may be "art", but the majority of that doesn't look like anything except pieces of hideous trash. If it's authorized and really a piece of history, the majority wouldn't have done so without TA employees or transit officers present.
>>>Here's what Mom and Dad (in the unlikely event there is a Dad) think<<<
Yeah, having a dad there would make all the difference. There's never a crime driven person with dear old dad around. All those kids who shot up their schools, they must've not had any dads. Better watch out for me Mr. Rosa, my dad's not around either. Oooooh, I'm bad, bad to my skinny bones. Mwuhahahahahahaha!
Well, having a dad does make some difference. It's not just negligible. But you're right, I know kids who have no dads and are more sensible than kids with them, and vice-versa. It depends on the individual.
No need to apologize to me, though I appreciate the gesture. Since you and I have patched up our differences, and Train Dude is one of my best friends on this site, I was hoping that you two could have a meeting of the minds. You and I did and we're better off for it. I do know the problem. To wit, me and Brighton Beach Bob are close buddies. He and BMT Doug are friends, but Doug doesn't care for me. I don't consider him an ally either. These things happen. I do hope that both you and Dude find things to bring you closer together. Remember, you and I were trading serious barbs some weeks ago, now we get along. It can he done. I hope it does.
>>>where we participated in an art expo where graffiti (street art) was represented. Auctions were held and our work sold,...
Seven: Good - use your own personal property, turn it into an exhibit, and then make it into an art. Just keep it off the trains...
Now, I don't have any grudge or prejudice against urban things in general. I am, however, wondering if you can actually recall what a graffiti-filled subway looked like. Granted, graffiti was one of the least of our subway's many problems then. However, IMHO, graffiti people discovered just about the only way to make old, grime-covered, olive-green subway cars with malfunctioning lights and other parts look even more forbidding! :)
The general principle about public property is that it is meant for all to use. Noone can use it in a manner that prevents other people from doing so. And yes, graffiti does interfere with the functioning of the subway - I've seen roller signs, maps, ad signs, and even ceiling lights and a few headlights covered up with graffiti.
For much the same reason, certain acitivities such as hunting of wildlife should not be allowed on public properties. (The fact that is sometimes is allowed anyway only shows the political power of certain group in this country). What one person does interferes with the use of the property (wildlife people, tourism industry, outdoors enjoyment - hunting accidents are infamously frequent, and other local industries dependent upon tourism) of all other people. This is just to give you another example to help me illustrate my point to you.
Simply put, public property is meant for all to "consume", to share; and when one user's activities prevents others from using the property without interference, it is no longer an acceptable use.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Good point, turnstiles.
I feel that alot of those creative juices that gave use the scurge of graffiti in the 70's could should been channeled to constructive art. After all, alot of the more colorful works were 'rolling murals', yet defacing public property is a crime.
Certainly those youths who were into graffitiing the subway trains could have just as easily spent a few $$ on buying illustration boards and canvases to showcase their talents if they really wanted to do something creative and not just to 'thumb their noses' at authority. Graffiti in the 70's was more about defying authority than just 'showcasing art".
BMTman
Do you not understand how hard it is, to get your art out there? u people say it as if it was as easy as painting something and goin outside, thats why to me my art is a hobby a side activity, I have other inteests besides subway graffiti, but i do know how hard it was for me and my crew to get this deal we had recently
SeveN, I posted the question in an earlier post in a more convaluted way. Let me ask you directly. Forgetting my professional interest in the subject, I'd like to ask you 3 questions and would appreciate an honest answer - if you can:
1) How long does it take you and your crew do one car exterior - one side?
2) How much does the paint cost for an average work of art?
3) Considering that the TA NEVER allows one of these cars to get into service, considering that it's cleaned before more than a handful of people see it, where does the real satisfaction come from?
You see, SeveN, my thoughts have been that you and your crew get off on being the flies in the ointment. However, you have said that there is a higher purpose to your art. I can't square the two.
And while we're at it - for extra credit - why would you guys put messages in the art naming members of the vandal squad and trying to taunt them? Seems that may not be your smartest move.
I've been watching this debate from the side for a while.
Seven, I grew up in the Bronx, have been in neighborhoods where economic and social conditions are below par (andmany where things are getting better) and understand where you're coming from. The thing that bothers me, though, is that, "the end justifies the means" in your opinion. You also seem to be willing to put aside your self-respect to get a message across, which, in the case of graffitti, generally backfires.
As to getting visibility for your art, your complaint that there is no opportunity out there rings a bit hollow. Opportunity comes to the prepared. Of all the cities in America, New York offers the most opportunity to people without much money. You can take art classes at City U. (two or four year colleges) You can set up an easel just about anywhere in the city, draw to your heart's content, and show it off to any passerby. You can also (and this has always been true) get a permit from the city to stage a special exhibit and then call a newspaper or TV station to come and film it (the latter are always looking for events to show on the morning news and talk shows). And, of course, now you have the Internet. Want a million people to see your art work? Put up a webpage, then make sure the Yahoo Directory knows about it (there is a procedure for that); the other search engines will find you. Make up a booklet, and chip in with your friends to put an ad in a newspaper or magazine's Sunday section advertising it. Sell it for a few bucks. If you're really good, an agent may like your work and try to get you a slot in a gallery (I'm not an expert in exactly how that works).
Of course, now there is a program for arts and music in the subways. I always put a little change in somebody's cup when they're playing music in the stations, even if not perfectly played. I think it's great. On more than one occasion, I've been treated to a comedy skit on a train, and I even have a framed picture of a little girl sketched impromptu on the IRT Lex and handed to me as a gift because I liked it. When I tell my friends in LA about this it blows their minds. What's the saying? "Only in New York."
There is a catch though. To do any of this legitimately, you must be willing to acknowledge and respect the rights of others and learn how to use the available resources to get what you want. The fact that you may be poor or otherwise disadvantaged is not an acceptable excuse. It should not be acceptable to you (how much is your self-respect worth?).
There's another aspect to this. Playing chicken with the transit police is a waste of your time. Instead of really moving ahead in the art world, you've postponed or ignored a lot of opportunities because you weren't preparing to exploit them. Thus, instead of having a real portfolio to show an employer, a graduate school in fine arts, an advertising agency, a magazine or an art gallery, you have a record of trashing trains. That's too bad, because you created your own hardship. You have no one to blame but yourself.
Thanks for typing all that. A far more eloquent sermon than I had the time for. And yes, the enduring part of NYC is that everybody's got a sidewalk act and a captive audience - at least until the light changes. :)
If you really do want to get ahead, there are many ways - as long as you have a good sidewalk act. Word.
So? I was talking to Selkirk, who seems to have a geographic deficiency.
What's next? Someone committing suicide by jumping from the Brooklyn Bridge into the Hudson River.
SORRY...it was not directed at you.
MY mistake
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe someone trying to swim from Long Island to Royal Island
...or Wards Island to Randals Island
...or Marble Hill, Manhattan to Kingsbridge, The Bronx
("That's enough, Andrew!")
:=D
Frontin'? Frontin' for? Dare I ask you to explain?
PLEASE don't. 8-)
He can't explain. He doesn't know what frontin' means.
Don't bet on it
Peace,
ANDEE
I'll bet on it.
What are you talking about? East River?
What does 125th Street have to do with Marble Hill? And what does the Erie Canal (that's what the NYS Barge Canal is)
have to do with anything? Apart from being the major reason behind NYC's rise to America's primary city.
125th Street is in a deep basin between two ridges to the north and south caused by an earthquake faultine.
What are you smoking?
Fact ... do some studying of history and you'll see that the "river" that goes under the 225th Street bridge at Marble Hill is a human-dug CANAL ... and yes, it was originally called the "NYS Barge Canal" not to be confused with the "Erie canal" ... once upon a time, WATER ran on 125th street though it worked its way around the hill from the east side to the west side. And there WAS a small creek north of the NYS Barge Canal as well and that's the reason why the 225th St station as well as the Marble Hill community is MANHATTAN even though it's on the Bronx side of the canal ...
Back in the 1950's when I went to school, they actually taught things like this instead of the gobbledygook they pass off as "knowledge" these days. Don't take my word for it though, check it out yourself. Growing up in that neighborhood, we got taught the details of where we lived. :)
Maybe, before you make allegations of somebody's knowledge of facts you should stop talking like you're on an acid trip. The canal is, and always was called the Harlem River Ship Canal. Not the New York State Barge Canal.
Why mention this in the first place? What does ANY of this have to do with 125th Street? You didn't do a very good job segueing if you wanted to change the subject.
Finally, don't bother challenging me about my knowledge about New York City history and geography, unless you want to be treated like a Yankee that tries to teach a southerner how to barbecue.
Don't worry. I didn't pay attention in school, I learn things because I like to learn, not because I'm indocrinated in prison school to listen to the cerebral detergent they dole out there, now and in the 1950s.
"Cerebral Detergent" PIGS RULE
Pork: The Other White Meat is still deciding what new name to pick.
It will take effect with the August service changes.
I figure enough people will be confused so it can't hurt to confuse them more.
Like the borough changes of busses on December 11, 1988.
>>Finally, don't bother challenging me about my knowledge about New York City history and geography, unless you want to be treated like a Yankee that tries to teach a southerner how to barbecue.<<
Try?!?!?
Pork is THE historian on this board, from New Amsterdam to Airtrain-- Mess with the best, LOSE like the rest.
>>> ... and yes, it was originally called the "NYS Barge Canal" not to be confused with the "Erie canal" ...Back in the 1950's when I went to school, they actually taught things like this instead of the gobbledygook they pass off as "knowledge" these days
Selkirk: The Erie Canal really was the NYS Barge Canal. Sorry, your memory must have failed you. :)
>>> the Marble Hill community is MANHATTAN even though it's on the Bronx side of the canal ...
This brings up a good trivia point here, Selkirk. IIRC, Marble Hill is in the county of New York (in other words, Manhattan) - as you correctly pointed out, but it is actually in the borough of the Bronx.
-cordially,
turnstiles
"Marble Hill is in the county of New York (in other words, Manhattan) - as you correctly pointed out, but it is actually in the borough of the Bronx."
I've never heard that before. I thought it was in both the Borough of Manhattan AND New York County.
:-) Andrew
It was in the Borough of Manhattan and the County of the Bronx because the state never bothered to mention it in the act that created Bronx County in 1914. So somebody in Marble Hill noticed this, tried to report to jury duty in the Bronx, and then the state legislature had to shift it to New York County retroactive to 1914, else have to wade through a lot of shit.
The residents get all of their services from the Bronx, and their council district is otherwise Bronx-only, but they vote for the Manhattan borough president and are responsible to NY County for court purposes (boroughs are useless except for the useless position of BP).
One of the things that happens as you get older is you learn not to argue over trivia ... I'm pretty certain that it was called that (and yes, living on the actual edge of the "Erie canal" here in Albany I know that this too was called the "NYS Barge Canal" as well) but it's not so crucial to me being right or wrong here so I defer to any other expertise. It's not an issue worth battling over. No problem there.
However, Marble Hill *IS* Manhattan, so much so that the street signs in that little section always bore the Manhattan color scheme and it is taxed as Manhattan. Lived there once upon a time on the BRONX side of 230th Street. "Forgotten-ny" has a wonderful little collection of pictures of Marble Hill itself which will amaze folks from the city in its rural enclave nature which still remains to this day.
The reason for Marble Hill remaining as part of Manhattan is that where the canal under the 225th Street Bridge is NOT where the original line between Manhattan and the Bronx was, so the original boundary where the creek used to be prior to its construction, even though it's gone (it was around 230th St and Bailey Avenue and cut west to where Marble Hill station of MNRR is now and after it was dried out, became the Marble Hill yards of the NY Central) is still recognized on the maps as the border. History buffs might know when the water was diverted into the current location but that wasn't the reason why I mentioned it as far as 125th Street once being a waterway of some sorts that wasn't deep enough to be "navigable" ... that's why the canal was built in the first place to connect the East river to the Hudson through there.
But if I'm wrong on any of this, I won't argue - I don't really care. :)
It still has nothing to do with 125th Street whatsoever. The Spuyten Duyvil creek was the only natural obstacle to making the Harlem River navigable. By making it navigable, it would be possible to go from the New York Bay, and up the Hudson through the East River without having to reverse and go around the Battery after visiting a pier on the East River (that's why the West Side is more industrial, all of the East River industries died much earlier).
There was no major body of water running the length of Manhattan for all but the shortest distance. There were many creeks and streams, especially in the "skyline gap" between Midtown and Downtown. All of them flowed towards one of the two rivers.
The 225th Street Bridge you're talking about is called the Broadway Bridge, which carries that street and the Fort George line. It's the only line across the canal. 225th Street did cross the now filled in Spuyten Duyvil creek on the Free Bridge - known that way because it was built as an alternative to the tolled King's Bridge along Kingsbridge Avenue.
I'm confused. The canal you speak of (NOT the NYS Barge Canal, which is upstate) is above 225th street, 100 blocks north of 125th. I've never heard of there being water at 125th.
Andrew
It was a very long time ago, but yes in fact there was ... I've seen wood cuts of very low profile boats on it while it was pointed out that 125th street was once "sorta navigable" (source: Riverdale Historical Society, 1958) ...
The closest body of water to 125th Street was the creek that started in what is now Central Park that went to the East River. Where do you think the water from all those waterfalls in those wooded areas in north end of the park goes?
HMMM. The A is the best train, huh. IF it is, here's the only reason why.
1. It runs on the former Fulton El for part of its journey.
2. It has a very scenic run to Far Rockaway via old LIRR trackage. Nothing about the IND is scenic, except for the tracks it robbed from the BMT.
3. It runs R-38s.
So, in summing up, I still think the Brighton is the best. By the way, you say people on this site make fools of themselves? I've ridden literally EVERY mile of the New York subway system, PATH, Metro North, LIRR, most of NJT, the Newark City Subway, the HBLR, and some of Amtrak. I'm sure most people on this site have done this as well.
And I know I'll get some wise-ass comment about not having a life. I work a steady job, have my own place, and am independent dispite being legally blind. This site is usually hostile free. The idiots who violate that pleasant fact should be blocked from posting. A life is a wonderful thing. Get one.
I'll second that and then some. You have my unqualified support on this, my friend. Need I say more?
The A has at least two things to recomend in it: The long, above-ground sections in Queens and the long express run in Uptown Manhattan. However, though it has been a while since I've been on it, I suspect the A dosen't move as fast on CPW as it once did.
:-) Andrew
Those Damned timers have severly slowed down the A. I'm talking about 45mph speeds TOPS.
They don't even go that fast anymore. The field shunt mod had a lot to do with that.
Two years ago I was doing some railfanning in Livingston, Montana. I was about to snap a picture of a standing MRL SD-45, when the engineman called to me. He had recognized my "Bushwick's" baseball cap, and wondered if I was from New York City. When I confirmed that I was, he asked me why I was in Montana taking pictures of old EMD diesels when I could be back at home taking pictures of some of the finest rapid transit that existed, especially the fabulous A train.
Heh. Wow ... 45's are considered "brand new" around here in the land of 38's and 40's ... alas, there's no R10's anymore are there? I remember a time that the A train was *always* R10's and you'd never see R10's anywhere else ... ah well, showing my age again. :)
I remember that time very well. That was when the A had the only trains in the city that had florescent lighting. All of the other subway cars had incandescent lighting.
It was a time when the riding public has no inkling that subway cars could possibly be air conditioned. It was the time when the A was the best and the brightest!
Wowsers! Another fellow cave-dweller! Yeah, they were pretty snazzy for their time, a time that unfortunately has to go as the equipment finally fell apart after many long years of trusty use. But it sure did have its charm compared to the modern excessively antiseptic world we live in. Ah well, we still use those glass orbs upstate. Heh.
It's hard to believe that the R-10's were in service for several years while the BMT was still using the gate cars.
It was quite a change to get off an R-10 A at East New York, walk up all of those stairs to the el, and get a gate train out to 111th St.
I also remember when the A was all R-10s and all the R-10s were on the A. That was when they had the nice, teal and white paint scheme with the racing stripe - my alltime favorite paint job.
>>>That was when they had the nice, teal and white paint scheme with the racing stripe - my alltime favorite paint job. <<<
AHHH, yes, that was my favorite also.......
Peace<
ANDEE
Ayup ... once upon a time ...
It appears that the cut-back is not official yet.
Transit Honcho on Wrong Track
But it will be soon enough. Reuters obviously doesn't give a damn about Brooklyn and he wants everyone to know it. The G may not be the most heavily used train in the system, but its riders deserve better than this.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That settles it. G riders will lose. CONSOLATION: build a transfer from the G to the J/M/Z wherever they meet. But, no good, the only line you'll have is the M.
I had just got off a southbound E train at 34th Street. I walked down the 8th Avenue passage all the way to 13-14 platform. I walk down the stairs, and there was Acela! I was amazed at how they decked out the cars. The interior looked like that of an airplane. I looked at the sign at the side. It said "Route 2138." I took some pictures, one with the train with the sign saying "Track 14 Front of LIRR Trains -->"
As I was taking pictures, the doors on every car opened up. I didn't go inside, though.
I took an escalator up to the Amtrak/NJT level. and I looked at the departure board, which had the following line
3:50P Amtrak 2138 ACELA EXPRESS - R WASHINGTON ON TIME
I also saw another ACELA train scheduled for a later time bound for New Haven.
Yup, More Acela trains are running now.
The train number should be 2183, instead of 2138. Usually Washington-bound trains are odd-numbered.
BTW, I went to Union Station, Washington, D.C. to take a closer look at the interiors of Acela Express last Tuesday. It looked good, but I was disappointed that the seating was narrower than that of Metroliners.
Chaohwa
I didn't remember the exact number. I knew it had those digits, but I didn't know the exact order. Thanx!
3:50P Amtrak 2183 ACELA EXPRESS - R WASHINGTON ON TIME
Since I often visit Penn Station, what you post is right.
Chaohwa
I saw Acela engines pull into Penn on track 13 about 5:30pm (was on the 5:36 to Babylon)a week or so ago. It looked like it had normal Metroliner cars. Does anyone know if this a regular occurance?
Maby this acela was a acela regional.
What you saw is an HHP-8 engine.
Chaohwa
I think this is what you're talking about.
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/18/21.jpg
Bingo!
Chaohwa
No, IT WAS AN ACELA (actually two), I know what I saw.
You mean like this one (16-C-25) or this one (18-21)?
You may want to post a link to the directory...
The links didn't take me to your site, they took me to TopCities Home Page. There have been pictures posted here of the ACELA trains, and that is what I saw.
You mean like this one (16-C-25) or this one (18-21)?
The second picture was kind of dark, couldn't see the coaches, but that looks like the view I had from the 5:36pm to Bab. on 14 (Acela on 13).
The coaches are the regular Amfleet coaches, and that is an HHP-8 locomotive at the end there. HHP locomotives have road numbers in the 600's while the Acela Express locomotives are numbered in the 2000's. If the second one is what you saw on the Babylon train, those are HHP-8's.
Take a look at this picture
NO THAT'S NOT IT! My question is, does any Acela equipment make its way to Penn Station, sometimes, never, always? I'll make the identification part easy, the engine I saw had the word ACELA painted on and was light blue/cyan. IT WAS AN ACELA ENGINE (2 OF THEM).
REVS in the picture !!!!!!!!!!
It is very strange to me. Usually an Acela Express trainset is bound together. It is not possible to put power cars on Metroliner coaches because power cars are not used to push and pull Amfleet coaches.
However, I did see two HHP-8s on a Metroliner train, one at each end. Perhaps this is the scenario.
Chaohwa
You saw the same exact train I saw. I was on track 15 with the unusually placed MidTown Direct train (they rarely go past track 14, hell rarely past 4 unless rush hour). I saw several LIRR riders stare in envy at the reversing seats and digital signs, and the door chime got a few interesting reactions. One guy was standing in the doorway of the train looking at the NJT map for several minutes. When the train left an NJT Arrow III train took its place. The exit concourse rehab project must be causing NJT to shift their trains to tracks in unobstructed areas.
I was one of the few people here able to board Acela even before the inaugural run. They were testing it on the NEC and while they were turning it in NY Track 6 an employee allowed me to look around until it was time for them to leave again.
I wonder if Amtrak and LIRR are showing off their newest stuff by scheduling such trains to depart from the middle tracks. Metroliners and Acelas seem to enjoy the shared tracks. And the LIRR bilevels seem to gravitate toward tracks 15-17.
Story about FRA fines leveled against NJ Transit
Peace,
ANDEE
[Earlier this week, a man walking across a narrow railroad bridge connecting Red Bank to Long Branch was struck and killed by a New Jersey Transit locomotive making an unscheduled trip to a maintenance yard, authorities said.]
What was that guy doing on that bridge anyway? Did he have some kind of death wish or something?
According to THIS STORY, Pedestrians use the bridge frequently even though they are not allowed.
Peace,
ANDEE
Wonder when Oceanport Creek got relocated to Red Bank and/or Long Branch? When I was photographing that bridge a couple of weeks ago it connected Little Silver to Oceanport (it's located between the Little Silver and Monmouth Park stations on the NJCL).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Our excellent Web host Dave has updated the Bangkok and Singapore pages with the digial images I took on my trip to Asia last week. Enjoy...
I see Sentosa has changed very little from my visit there. Glad you had good weather (and I'm telling this to a meterologist!) I hope you had an opportunity to rent a bicycle and take a ride around the island.
Where is the third MRT line, which one of your pictures mentions, supposed to go? Any idea how long it is?
--Mark
Mark, in my humble opinion, 96 degrees with a dew point of 78 is not "good weather"! I'd rather be here where it's snowing :-) Alas, it was WAAAAY to hot to ride a bike around Santosa Island. Even riding the monorail didn't provide much relief, as the 9 mph didn't create much of a breeze.
The third MRT line is due to open late in 2002. Construction is moving along nicely.... it runs from the World Trade Center (southeast corner of Singapore) up to the north central part of the island.
Singapore sounds like a nice place to live. I have my own (non-rail related) reasons for that. Lets just say it's something very beautiful and mystical. :-)
We know.
Because human rights are just a crime-causing excessity.
Singapore is a "fine" city. Chew gum? $500. Throw your cigarette butt on the street? $500. Deface property? 15 lashes with a cane and $1000. Etc.
That's one reason the subway is so clean.
The gum one is just horrible. Unless something leaves my mouth in an antisocial manner, I should do with it however I please.
The other ones are a bit steep, except that I think we should have corporal punishment here in the States.
Not In Singapore, also Playboy etl is illegal, still the cleanist city I have ever been in, and among the safest
I would rather live in dirty squalor than any land where I cannot be free.
With tyranny, one can only live in misery.
Actually I was talking about mystical and beautiful sights...
I wish I was that guy (with the glasses). I gather most women aren't too into railfanning or subways.
No image, just the "missing image icon". Click on it and you get a "Access forbidden from exteral host" message screen.
Hmm, displayed when I tested it out. I guess that's what happens when you use Yahoo to post your images on the net. :-(
Where can I actually set up a decent free website other than Geocities or Yahoo (If you can even call it that)?
Mark, in my humble opinion, 96 degrees with a dew point of 78 is not "good weather"! I'd rather be here where it's snowing :-)
I know what you mean about the humidity.
--Mark
A very nice job again ... thanks so much for sharing.
Mr t__:^)
This week's installment of Tom Tomorrow's "This Modern World" provides the Chambers Street station as the background for this week's topic. It appears to be a fairly true drawing of the station and a N/B #1 train. However, he didn't color the redbird red (see website,
http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2001/03/05/tomo/index.html).
Did Redbirds ever run on the 1? That is, were they red yet?
Check the photo listings under the R33-36 heading as well as the photo of the 238th St. station under the #1 line - you should see some a few photos of "red" Redbirds on the #1 line.
The first cars to come from the factory in "Fire Engine Red" (as opposed to a dark red/maroon color) were the R29s in 1962. And, when they first entered service in 1962, it was on the #1 line.
-- Ed Sachs
That was when they were 'firebirds', and performed like that nickname says. But, now, redbirds is be-fitting.
Maybe "bloodbirds" is a good word now.
:-) Andrew
There was one train of Redbird Mainline R-36s, then called the "E-Cam Train" that ran on the 1 for just a little while. I'll see if I can find my shot of it. Anyway, the train was transferred intact to the #6 with all the rest of the ML 36s by 1988. If memory serves it was the last SMEE of any type to be assigned to the #1.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Pretty good; but the train is one of those "whitebirds" (sea gulls?) that they had on the IRT in the pre-R62 days. Painters' canvasses, indeed. And it looks like an R36ML, some of which, I think, were assigned to 240 Street yard.
wayne
Pigeons, perhaps?
Your reference to sea gulls reminds me of that prewar E train at 42nd St. that squealed like a flock of those birds when the motorman gave it juice. I didn't know whether to duck or head for cover.
Bid to Sell Naming Rights Runs Off Track in Boston from today's (3/9) New York Times.
--Mark
thought you might be interested.
got to www.bombardier.com click on media center. click on complete list of press releases at the bottom of the most recent press releases and scroll till you see where it says words about delivery of m-7's to MTA/LIRR/MNRR scroll to the bottom and click on picture available. you will get a computer simulation of what it looks like. click low resolution to get a bigger view.
That view's been there for over a year -- so things may have changed since it was originally put up.
yes it has changed. it is different from the one you saw.
Oh yeah!! QUITE different. The original "photo" they had looked like just a retouched M-3 with single-leaf doors and subway-type end gates. This one is totally different. (My opinion: UGLY!!)
my opinion, its a new look. might look different in reality when it hits. it still has subway car gates but it can lay flat against the body of the car
God they are featureless and ugly. They look like a derivative of the Montreal EMU's.
I saw the pic - and I seriously hope the artist was drunk when he created that image.
The single-leaf doors - definately gotta get the boot.
Absolutely Hideous!
The current M series are, to me, perfect in every way. Sleek and smooth, just the way I like em - seeing a train of those roll by conjures up images of moody dim blue light, long-stemmed roses, silhuetted figures, smoke, and funk jazz.
get your barf bags because they are coming out just like that. single leaf doors are for easy access for the handicapped (they ride the lirr often) and for easier maintenance.
If that's basically how they're going to look, I have to say it's VERY different from the M1s and M3s. I suppose the MTA is so over the "blue stripe" motiff.
Still, not bad looking. A little more character than the M1s and M3s.
:-) Andrew
And here's the link.
If you read the description it says in the 6th paragraph:
These vehicles are fully motorized married pairs, each having a full-width operator’s cab at each end.
Isn't that a tad contradictory, though? If there were only one 'each' it would look as if they meant a cab at the ends of the pairs. But this indicates there will be cabs at the 'b' end of the cars as well!
These vehicles are fully motorized married pairs, each having a full-width operator’s cab at each end.
Isn't that a tad contradictory, though? If there were only one 'each' it would look as if they meant a cab at the ends of the pairs. But this indicates there will be cabs at the 'b' end of the cars as well!
It means each pair has a cab at each end of the pair.
Ugly! How are passengers ever going to move forward for short stations like Forest Hills, Kew Gdns. &c? I guess they're SOL unless they put signs up or if the cabs are of the knockdown variety.
wayne
New Jersey Transit Arrow III MU's and SEPTA MU's have a full width operators cab at each end and yet somehow they are able to accomidate short stations (I have fist hand knowledge of this). Figure it out for yourself.
I have fist hand knowledge of this
You had to punch a conductor to get between cars?
NJT and SEPTA and pretty much anything with exit doors in vestibules (incl control cabs) work it out the same way: The storm door is "closed" when the car is at the front of the train, and the operator controls are exposed. In the middle of the train, the storm doors are left "open" and the controls are blocked by the door.
The LIRR worked it out on the C-3 this way (diagram).
Red line is cab door, blue line is storm door, cyan lines are windows, grey areas are the big luggage areas.
In the middle of the train, the storm doors are left "open" and the controls are blocked by the door.
No, the controls are still exposed in the middle of the train. Most controls are disabled, but you can still do things like lower the pantograhps.
No, the controls are still exposed in the middle of the train. Most controls are disabled, but you can still do things like lower the
pantograhps.
That shouldn't have any effect on train operations. Right?
Well it cuts power to the train and all the light go out until the engineer puts the pans back up.
Which, IIRC, requires them to find the offending "down" switch and reset it. The few married pair MP-54s the PRR had also had a down switch in the trailler cars too. I believe the Arrow III's switch can be set to affect the entire train or just that car. Oddly enough, nobody plays with it anyway. Unlike the LIRR, where missing a stop is followed by reppeated jamming of one's finger into the ceiling mounted buzzer button by the door...
Dropping the pan while the train is accelerating would be a Bad Thing (tm), unless there's a system that pop's the main breraker on the car first. I believe the Arrow's have a main breaker - the M-2's don't. The AEM-7's do, so dropping the pan doesn't cause any arc. they can also "power down" without dropping the pan, and they are perfectly silent when they do that too - no noise at all. I heard one at new haven do this - when restarted, they power up in sequence, one blower goes on, then another, then another. It's neat :)
SEPTA trains do not have mid-car side doors. When a train pulls into a short station, the train's head car pulls out of the station, leaving only its rear door on the platform. The reverse for the last car of the train (that is, the rear door does not open, not being on a platform). Also, off-peak SEPTA commuter trains have only two cars.
The R7 almost always has 3 or more cars. Only the first 2 are open though. Once it had five, I thought I was getting the wrong train.
Single leaf doors? How many per side?
--Mark
Mark: Single-leaf doors...and full-width cabs at both ends of every married pair? THis does not sound like a practical design to me.
-cordially,
turnstiles
I'd imagine two. Hate to be on the 7:04 Ronkonkoma when it arrives at Penn with one non-operational door.
I noticed that the M-7's numbering will start at 7001. I wonder why the 6000 series was bypassed?
Bill "Newkirk"
It's already in use by Metro North. The LIRR and MNRR don't like to have overlapping numbers.
But they do have some overlapping numbers. NH M-6's duplicate LI M-1's. Wonder why the NH didn't back off to the 7000's ?
Here's the direct link without doing all the clicking: http://www.transport.bombardier.com/htmen/image/E_LIRR-LowRes.jpg
I do like the double doors better than the single leaf. One leaf is easier to maintain (half the mechanisms) I suppose, but if one door of the double gets stuck, at least the other opens. Also, more window room on either side of the double door.
usually I believe the Motorman rodeo is in april or may. I was wondering if anyone knew when it is? I would greatly appreciate it of someone can tell me when the rodeo is. Thank you
Gotta round up them doggies for the big Coney Island rodeo and hootenanny!
Keep them doggies rollin'! YeHaw!
I know it's in April just don't have the exact date handy.
BMTman
The RTO roadeo is on the same day as the Car Inspector Roadeo. It should be on April 7th at Coney Island.
Wow ... is someone gonna lassoo a hippo and pop wheelies on R32's? I'd PAY to see that. :)
Pop wheelies on R32's -- Gosh, I think that'd require nore than just fixing the Field Shunting.
Heh. The guys at Coney could probably arrange for some additional hydraulics to convert at least one car into a low ride ... the word "roadeo" conjures up all sorts of bizarre mental images. But that'd be worth paying for ...
LOL!!
;-)
You're a real riot, Kev...
BMTman
Wouldn't that be neat though? An extra pair of handles so you could make it bounce across the platform and onto the adjacent track without benefit of a lower yellow signal? That'd teach the geese to hold the doors. :)
The BMT standards had that trick down pat. 2779 did, anyway.
Heh. I still think that even as a digitally-generated spoof, a subway car emulating a "Cheech and Chong" style low ride would be funny. Now that we all know Matt Groening really has a thing about subways, perhaps we could convince him to work in bucking B trains into one of his cartoons. I was in a really weird mood when I posted that - musta shovelled too much snow. Heh.
Spring Break cometh early for me...
What is the Motorman's Rodeo??
The Rodeo (in the past it's also been called the roadeo) is in 3 parts. The two main parts take place in early April. There is the Car Equipment Rodeo where 3-'man' teams compete via a written test, tool identification, and a practical exams (troubleshooting). On the RTO side, train operators compete in various skills related to precision train operation. The winners, both RTO and DCE are sent to compete in the national APTA rodeo. That event is held each year during the APTA convention in the city of a member Railroad.
Prizes for the winners include large screen TVs, VCRs, Camcorders, 35 MM cameras etc. It's a day when family and friends are invited to participate. There's always pleanty of food, music, clowns, demonstrations, museum cars on display, tours and even a diesel pulled trainride around the yard.
[...and even a diesel pulled trainride around the yard.]
Yup. I can attest to that one. The SBK diesels are put to work hauling the rail inspection car (old 5th Ave. Coach on a flat car) around Coney Island/Stillwell Yards via the loop track. Nice ride.
BMTman
The APTA Nationals are in Boston in June. May the best motorman......
According to an article in this week's Queens Tribune, their staff photographer, Ira Cohen, who also happens to be a motorman, was one of sixteen recipients of the Transit Ambassador award by the MTA, "for his goodwill towards straphangers and co-workers."
I had no idea Cohen was a T/O; I suppose that's why the Trib often features some great subway photos!
Everyone here has made different opinions on the G's cutback to Ct. Sq. That news article from the Daily News stated:
Queens Plaza tracks can support 30 trains per hour. R trains run 12, and "V" trains will run 9. That's only 21 trains, plenty of room for the 6 tph that the G runs.
Here's what I want to know: Where does everyone plan to get these cars from to extend the G? I really, there isn't enough equipment for the G. Maybe when the r-143 gets here. But, how about that Culver express service instead. If the TA began implementing that service, that might satisfy some G riders, enough to make this massacre of the G line look more respectable.
What if the extra cars are used to increase Queens train frequency - say to 30 an hour? Then the G will have to waita lot longer.
I know. The Daily News doesn't know that.
And, the TA won't increase local service to 30 tph. I just won't have reason for that many tph
I'm hoping the R143s can maybe bring some kind of comeback for the G. But more important to me is extending at least two locals to 179th so the F can run express again. Maybe the V and R to 179th weekdays (I'll put up with semilocal on off-hours) and the G to 71-Continental rush-hours.
:) Andrew
One thing I want to point out: Assume you can run the G to Continental with the V and R. One point I think people aren't considering is the relay situation at Continental. The delays getting into Continental are bad enough with the R and G. If three services are running to Continental,there will be lots of trouble getting all the lines to leave the station on time for the trip southbound. Trains will have to long relay(relaying on tracks D5 or D6 which are leads to Jamaica yd).This adds time and will cost more money in the sense that the TA will have to hire extra switchman to relay the trains.
There are a lot of things the Daily News didn't take into account when the wrote the editorial, though I guess it could be worse -- they could have written one demanding the MTA keep the Grand Street station accessible for passengers coming from Brooklyn.
So extend the V to 179 and the R to Parsons Archer. The new V is mostly for Eastern Queens so how about running it there.
If you extend the R out there, you'll have to cut E service.Parsons couldn't handle the R service and the E service as it currently stands.
f you extend the R out there, you'll have to cut E service.Parsons couldn't handle the R service and the E service as it currently stands.
Jamaica Center-Parsons has the capacity to turn around 40 tph on each level. It is similar to the Times Sq terminal on the Flushing Line with the tail tracks. They did turn around 36 tph at Time Sq during the morning rush hour at one time.
One thing I've learned -- the switches installed in the past 30 years (electric) don't work as fast as those there before (pneumatic). At a time when ridership was shrinking, the TA went with switches that are more reliable at the cost of more (unneeded) capacity. They had trouble running additional trains on the L for that reason, and could not (as I had suggested here) run 30 trains to WTC, because they couldn't turn them around.
Of course, it is only terminal switches that need to be faster. Faster switches could be installed at those locations, if it became a priority.
One thing I've learned -- the switches installed in the past 30 years (electric) don't work as fast as those there before (pneumatic). At a time when ridership was shrinking, the TA went with switches that are more reliable at the cost of more (unneeded) capacity.
I think that it would be very difficult to justify any "reliability" figures presented by the TA. They have been caught falsifying track and signal inspection records too many times to make any of their statements believable.
They had trouble running additional trains on the L for that reason, and could not (as I had suggested here) run 30 trains to WTC, because they couldn't turn them around.
The amount of time for a switch to change is small compared to the minimum interval headway interval of 60 seconds between switch changes for terminal operation at 30 tph. I think that one would find that this reason for not being able to turn around additional trains is as fabricated as the signal and track inspection records.
The top capacity of 30 tph at stub terminals like 8th Ave and WTC unusual scheduling. A better solution for the 14th St Line would be be to change the track configuration between 6th and 8th Aves to permit half the trains to terminate at 6th Ave.
They replaced the switches at WTC with as much fanfare and inconvenience as possible. Is the TA suggesting that the new switch does not meet the old switch's capabilities?
A pneumatic switch goes over and gives indication about 2
seconds sooner than an electric switch. No big deal.
Do you know how long a Pneumatic switch takes? 3 seconds? 5 seconds? 10 seconds?
About 2
Why would G riders care if Culver got an express?
Only in the minds of a railfan is extending the G further into Brooklyn a substitute for extending it from Ct. Sq. to Continental Avenue.
They've announced a May date for the walkway opening (I guess that's the completion date for the painting). So they could do the bridge switch at that point, but I guess the TA got it put off until the new pick.
A Subtalk stroll is on order once trains are running alongside the walkway, but I'll be going over as soon as I can. Perhaps I'll bring my two girls on a roundtrip, two bridge excursion. As long as I promise ice cream at the end, they're game.
They probably will run trains over starting in May, to 'familiarize' T/Os with the route. How many crews do you think are still around that have operated over it?
27 to be exact.
I've not been on the bridge on foot. Pedestrians walk next to the trains? The subway is on the lower deck.
The way it looks (at least what I think is the walkway), then yes.
Although the walkway would be on the different side than where I ride the train now, there used to be two identical ones.
When did the walkways close? I have no memory of them ever being open.
When did the walkways close? I have no memory of them ever being open.
The one on the north side was closed in 1942 on order from the War Department as an anti-espionage measure.
The one on the south side was closed in the late 1950's or early 1960's because the bridge motion caused chunks of concrete to break and fall into the river. The remaining walkway was removed in the early 1980's as a hazard to river navigation.
For those who haven't seem them, they are on the outboard side on the lower level, next to the trains. The one on the south side is completely rebuilt and painted. The one on the north side has river between the stringers.
According to the articles, they are going to allow bikes and pedestrians on the south side until the north side is rebuilt, then have the north side for bikes and the south side for pedestrians.
I wonder whether they will finish the north side tracks or the north side walkway first.
Thanks for the info.
Is the entrance on the Manhattan side at the SE corner of Bowery and Canal, right by Confucious plaza? It looks new and it boarded off.
That's it. We've wanted to walk it, but since it's on the south side it has been closed during the re-contruction.
A Subtalk stroll is on order once trains are running alongside the walkway
And that'll be a great place to take video once the swap to the south side is made.
(Then we can argue, along with whether the Brighton or Sea Beach is better, which walkway provides a better view of the trains, the Manny B or the Willy B :)
--Mark
Anyone know if the Ben Franklin Bridge is open to pedestrians yet? I know it was closed off last year for maintenance, and I've always wanted to walk it. Is it near the PATCO trains?
Right Now.
It's for $32,000. He used a lifeline:
Started in 2000, Amtrak's Acela Express high-speed train travels between Boston and which of the following cities:
A: New York B: Washington
C: Los Angeles D: Chicago
He called it an obscure question! At least the audience knew it.
Sorry, A was Miami, not NY (otherwise it would be a trick question, wouldn't it?).
It was his first lifeline.
I was about to say. I would have to tell Regis that the question was ambiguous if I were playing.
Acela is a suburb of which city? :0)
Here are links to three photos I took last month of SA Tower and vicinity... Jersey Mike had requested that I post them when I got them scanned. Dave will be picking them up for this site as part of the NJCL line report which already has some of my pictures. As always, they are copyright 2001 by yours truly, but you're welcome to download and save for your personal non-commercial use.
SA Tower, looking toward the Raritan River.
A view of the Raritan River bridge from the base of SA Tower.
This derail protects the NJCL against anything coming down the wye.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Great Picture! Its always good to see another surviving tower. Hey, do you mind if I upload the picture of SA tower to the Interlocking Towers Yahoo Group? Its a shame the signals are not PRR PL's and that the switches are not electro-penumatic.
You may post it there, as long as the following copyright statement is included:
"Copyright 2001 by C.K. Leverett. Permission for private, non-commercial use granted as long as the photo is properly credited and this copyright statement included."
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Copyright 2001 by C.K. Leverett. Permission for private, non-commercial use granted as long as the photo is properly credited and this copyright statement included."
You have a mighty high opinion of your work ;) Anyway, I will do as instructed.
You have a mighty high opinion of your work ;) Anyway, I will do as instructed.
Comes from experience... I've been involved in a copyright dispute before, as executor of an estate, that began in the early 1970s and wasn't settled until 1991 - interestingly enough, involving a photograph of the Poughkeepsie Bridge taken by my great uncle. That's one picture you'll never see posted here, although it will eventually be published as part of a book on the CNE that a friend has been writing, on and off, for the past fifteen years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In 1993 when I toured the New York city subway system I noticed that at a number of terminals a bell would ring to indicate a train was to move out of the terminal in about one minute. At the some time the bell was rung a string of 3 yellow lights came on. Were there bells used at intermediate points on certain subway lines?
BMTJeff
The lights are green, and they always light with bells.
In intermediate stations, the lights are yellow, and they do the opposite. The lights at a terminal tell the crew when to leave, but the yellow lights at intermediate stations tell the train to stay.
At some stations, like Continental Avenue in Queens and 168th St. in Manhattan (it is still in Manhattan, isn't it?) the lights are yellow and can be either holding lights or starting lights, depending on the circumstance.
On the 1/9, South Ferry is not treated as a terminal. The lights are treated as holding lights. Chambers st uptown is considered the terminal.
On the Franklin S, I think the bell goes off automatically when the train enters Fulton St, no tower / dispatcher is involved.
Church ave on the F has no bell, when trains start there they must go by the orange lights.
I'm wondering why at 71/Continental during the AM rush the bell rings twice. All other times it only rings once.
I wonder if it was because both BMT and IND trains running on the same line had anything to do with it. One signal could have also been used for the "G" train. I'm only trying to make an educated guess.
BMTJeff
Since both trains would not leave simultaneously, that doesn't make any sense.
And the difference between the two divisions is irrelevant and is just a big anachronism.
The bell rings twice at Continental in the morning because the ATD on duty on the southbound platform has a habit of flipping the switch twice. While I was working the R line briefly back in November, I had asked him why, because I found it to be annoying. He told me then about his odd methods. Right now, I'm working the N line, and down at Stillwell Avenue when the bell rings, God forbid I don't close the doors right away, then the TD starts ringing the bell like a lunatic. He seems to think that by doing that he can get the train to move faster. You all have to realize I work with some real brain surgeons on this job.
It sounds interesting that the alternate train dispatcher has the habit of flipping the switch twice at the Continental/71Ave. station on the IND line. I wonder if he always did that.
BMTJeff
Alewife station in boston has bells the bell would ring to warn the train in the station to leave or it mean's a train is arriving. I think it is warning device for passengers.
Recently while riding this line, I noticed that the signals on this line south of East 180th Street appeared to be quite old.My question is how old are these signals on this line, I know they have new signals north of East 180th Street, up to 241th Street, and how long signals stay in service, before they are replaced?
Those are the original A-Division signalling and signals. It is being replaced by the B-Division signalling. It'll be gone soon.
The contract has been awarded to replace those signals. Get ready for some diversions.
Or Shuttle Buses.
What is the difference between A and B division signals?
Home Signals are different:
A-division: Top head indicates condition of main route, bottom head indicates condition of diverging route. Therefore, one is always red. A third red on the bottom is used if both the top ones are red.
B-division: Top one indicates condition regardless of which switch is used, bottom one indicates which route is switched: green for main, yellow for diverging. Double-red indicated stop.
See the signalling section of this site for more information.
The bottom signal does have exceptions, such as the one east of Rockaway Boulevard. Bottom green will take you on the diverge and you'll get to Lefferts Boulevard on that. Bottom yellow will take you over the main route with will bring you to Mott Avenue and Beach 116 Street.
But actually, Lefferts Boulevard is the main route, Far Rockaway is the spur.
Which route is green and which is yellow does not correspond
either to which is the straight iron vs diverging or which is
the usual direction of traffic. It is determined solely by
how the signal engineer who laid out the interlocking decided to
assign the Normal vs Reverse position of that switch lever (or
its equivalent). Usually one of the above two rules were followed
for making that decision, but sometimes not.
Just FYI but you probably know it already the West 4th IND interlocking gives bottom greens for routes that take a reversed switch or diverging routes..but then you are remaining on a main route. Such as 6th Ave. to Houston, or 8th to 8th (ave line--that is).For example if you were going from the 6th Ave. line to Hudson Terminal IIRC you'd get a bottom yellow but take straight iron.Same northbound.
Yup, one of countless examples of why it is important
to "know your line-up"
What happens to a T/O if the wrong line up is taken? I was on the F a Van Wyck Blvd on Saturday and the wrong line up was taken by an operator going towards 179th. He stopped about two cars in, then radioed the tower, then discharged the passengers from the train!
He said that he was going to get spanked by the folks at 370 Jay Street. Just what would they typically do?
>>He said that he was going to get spanked by the folks at 370 Jay Street. Just what would they typically do?<<
Well, they'd tell him to go an fetch their belt, cuz he's gonna get a whuppin!
No, he'll probably get a suspension w/o pay for 2-4weeks (not exactly sure how long)
No mistakes in that post. The green will bring you to Lefferts Boulevard and yellow will bring you to Mott Avenue/Beach 116 Street. But, the green at this signal moves the switch into diverge and yellow will move it into main route.
The contract has been awarded to replace those signals.
There are some new technologies that are currently used elsewhere. Their use provides the possibility for decreased cost and improved performance. The TA appears hell bent on replacing existing plant in kind after 45 years of neglect. Mere coincidence?
(There are some new technologies that are currently used elsewhere. Their use provides the possibility for decreased cost and improved performance. The TA appears hell bent on replacing existing plant in kind after 45 years of neglect. Mere coincidence?)
The signals will be different, 60 mhz rather than 25 (whatever that means), and controlled by master towers and eventually a rail control center rather than local towers. If CBTC works, they'll go with that eventually. The lines with the newest signals would be the last to get CBTC.
That's Hz, not MHz, a Megahertz is 1 million Hertz, it's the scale used to calculate the clock speed of most processors, and the frequency of FM radio, television and cellular telephones. It's the frequency of the current, regular transmission is done in 60 Hz, 25 Hz requires the TA to change it.
There was just a whole thread about it!
The signals will be different, 60 mhz rather than 25 (whatever that means),
I assume you mean 60 Hz rather than 25 Hz. AC power used for the signal systems and station lighting on the IRT and BMT was originally 25 Hz and not the standard 60 Hz. The TA converted the station power to 60 Hz with the installation of the metrocard turnstiles. This significantly reduced the requirements for 25 Hz power and made it uneconomic for the TA's electrical supplier to continue offering 25 Hz electricity.
Clearly, some re-engineering would be necessary for the conversion from 25 Hz to 60 Hz power supply. However, total signal system replacement is not required to make this change. There are other options.
and controlled by master towers and eventually a rail control
center rather than local towers.
The problem is that the new signal system will not provide sufficient information for dispatchers working at remote towers and control centers to make timely decisions. The master tower boards do not provide train identification. The master towers cannot provide a level of service that the local towers provide without such information. Such technology has been used in London for half a century.
If CBTC works, they'll go with that eventually. The lines with the newest signals would be the last to get CBTC.
The first problem will be to define "works". This is difficult because there are no advertised performance specs for the TA's CBTC system. Let me define work as the ability to automatically operate approximately 60 tph, like the MUNI spec.
Having settled definitions, it's should be clear that the CBTC implementation order should be based on desired service level, rather than the age of the equipment. What lines do these tracks serve - the Lex Express? Is there a near term need for doubled capacity on the Lex Ave Express?
To be accurate, CBTC is not required for 60 tph operation. It could be handled by block signals. The question is one of economics. Which is cheaper - double or triple the number of blocks or a completely new train based system?
To be accurate, CBTC is not required for 60 tph operation. It could be handled by block signals.
The question is one of economics. Which is cheaper - double or triple the number of blocks or a
completely new train based system?
Believe it or not, the latter. It's cheaper to install CBTC
equipment on 6,000 cars (probably a lot fewer because I doubt
the equipment will be installed on blind cars in permanently-linked
train sets) than to install what would amount to nearly 50,000
new signal locations throughout the system.
Believe it or not, the latter. It's cheaper to install CBTC equipment on 6,000 cars (probably a lot fewer because I doubt the equipment will be installed on blind cars in permanently-linked train sets) than to install what would amount to nearly 50,000 new signal locations throughout the system.
Are you suggesting there's no wayside equipment for CBTC and all the $1 billion+ for the Canarsie Line is for fleet overhaul?
With 50,000 new signals and 750 track miles that averages out to 80' per signal. That's overkill on two fronts. First, the Brooklyn Bridge managed 64 tph with 100' blocks, so your estimate is 25% over on that score. This would reduce the total 40,000. Second, 60 tph operation is required only on the trunk lines not the entire system. This represents 20% of the track mileage. This would bring the number of new blocks down to 8,000.
At $1 million per installation this would put a system overhaul in the $8 billion range. The Canarsie Line represents neither 12% of the track mileage nor fleet. Extrapolating out its costs on a system wide basis, gives one pause for rethinking CBTC's economic advantages for a rehab on this system with its trunk line geometry.
The cost of the wayside equipment could be reduced, if more modern technology were employed in its implementation. However, that's a different area with differing opinions between us regarding its efficacy. :-)
Are you suggesting there's no wayside equipment for CBTC and all the $1 billion+ for the
Canarsie Line is for fleet overhaul?
Is it really 1 billion? I thought the project was more like $300
million? Either way, there is wayside equipment required by
CBTC, just not as much. You eliminate all of the automatic
block signals and associated track circuits and stop arms
Track circuits are retained, at much longer block lengths,
for broken rail detection and at interlockings, where most
home signals and stop arms are also kept. You also add the wayside
communications units, but they are also fairly spread out.
With 50,000 new signals and 750 track miles that averages out to 80' per signal. That's overkill
Ooops, I miscalculated. According to the TA's facts & figures
booklet, there are about 10,000 signals today. That works out
to an average of one signal every 400' of main track Now, you
did say triple the number of signals. That means at least 20,000
new signals and probably more because not all of the original
signals will work out to be in the correct place. Alright, the
number is inflated because you don't need to do that on every
piece of every track.
But what's the tph gain in adding more blocks to the existing
fixed-block system. You'd have to lengthen the control lines
so the trip distance protection remains adequate. I assume you
meant this (coupled with close-in time control to get trains
closer safely), not some sort of ASC system, which would be
vehicle-based? This has mostly been done in the most needed spots,
approaching busy stations. You could extend that a few more train
lengths back to improve congestion performance during delays.
You could also, and this has never been done AFAIK, add the
same setup _leaving_ stations so that during congestion trains
are not prevented from departing (and thus block trains behind).
The cost of the wayside equipment could be reduced, if more modern technology were employed
in its implementation. However, that's a different area with differing opinions between us
regarding its efficacy. :-)
Well, there's modern and then there's modern. Up to a few years
ago, the TA was still insisting on new installations using
1950s technology. Recently, they have begun to utilize the
state-of-the-art, at least as far as the railway signal industry
goes. Now, you can (and have) argued that this industry should
use other techniques to reduce cost (and I say possibly safety).
I don't think the TA is in a position to dictate that.
I think CBTC is a promising idea, but my primary concern is
that the techniques being used to implement it introduce a
lot of unmanaged software complexity that may ultimately
result in a serious safety problem. I also agree that, for the
most part, the TA's insistence that it can't improve system
performance without wholesale replacement of its signal plant,
over a 50 year period, are ludicrous.
The TA should have installed an off the shelf CSS w/o fixed wayside signals. They keep the existing track circuts and blocks and leave trip arms and signals at interlockings, plus there is no chance of something interfereing with the wayside radio signals.
You also add the wayside communications units, but they are also fairly spread out.
All the CBTC installations to date use near field inductive loop for the DCS underground.
You could extend that a few more train lengths back to improve congestion performance during delays. You could also, and this has never been done AFAIK, add the same setup _leaving_ stations so that during congestion trains are not prevented from departing (and thus block trains behind).
I'd guess a combination of these these two would probably account for 75% of the improvement. It also reduces the cost. Consider 125 stations and 6 signals per - this puts the system cost at well under $1 billion.
I also agree that, for the most part, the TA's insistence that it can't improve system performance without wholesale replacement of its signal plant, over a 50 year period, are ludicrous.
We hold these truths to be self-evident.... :-)
Oh well, don't tell me. Sell it it Larry L. !
Finally, got an F out of Continental, ended up running local because it was 11PM last night. Along the way we get to Roosevelt, and I see an E on the Queens bound local track, says Whitehall St on its bottom terminal sign. I think, THAT TRAIN WENT THROUGH 63rd! I look at a sign on the platform: All trains rerouted through 63rd St tunnel between 10PM 3/9 and 5AM 3/12. I'm finally going through it with my F, and this is the line that will soon go through it regularly, so might as well see how it will be. If it ran express, that would've been sweet, but it ran local. Didn't matter. After 36th St, we got green over yellow and went right down. After a slight left and a sharp right I realize that the tunnel is a straight away. Why did those timers stay peristent? They wouldn't let us clear 25 for the whole ride! Anyway, we got into Queensbridge, my first time there, and I was amazed at how beautiful the station was. Same for Roosevelt Island and Lex/63rd. I guess that area doesn't get much grafitti. Even though it was made in 1988, it still is remarkably well-kept. From now on, no more 53rd/60th St for me. Lexington Ave on any of those lines is too hectic, compared to the wonderfully quiet Lex/63rd my F went through.
Those stations were finished in 1989. Still sparkling new. I still have to get a stab at the tunnel.
PA is satisfied with performance after repairs. Stories in Star-Ledger and Times.
Story in Monday's Star-Ledger.
By the end of this year, the Brooklyn-Broadway El will have been in continuous operation for one hundred and thirteen years. That makes it the third oldest rapid transit line in the United States with only the St. Charles Streetcar in New Orleans and the Cable Cars of San Francisco having been in service longer. It has seen every president from the first administration of Grover Cleveland to George Bush II. The Brooklyn Bridge was but five years old when it opened and Brooklyn itself was still an independent city. From the days of steam hauled wooden coaches to the all-steel subway cars of today it has provided safe, reliable service to young and old alike. It has been in existence for thirty-six more years than the venerable Third Avenue El in Manhattan (which was torn down after seventy-seven years of operation in 1955).
Children living in three different centuries have thrilled to its ride above the rooftops and with its connection to the Archer Street subway in 1988 and the reconstruction of its approach to the Williamsburg Bridge in 1999, its demise appears far off. Brooklyn is booming and the Broadway El offers a marvelous opportunity to become a tourist attraction on the order of its street borne counterparts in New Orleans and San Francisco. Restorng some of its stations to their original configurations would serve to beautify the surrounding communities and make real the past it so nobly represents. To every New Yorker and every man, woman, and child who has seen it shadows, and ridden its rails it represents a piece of who we are, where we've been, and where we're going. It is quite irreplaceable and as such it should be bestowed that designation which will best ensure its existence into perpetuity.
Eric Dale Smith
Good essay, one of my all time favorite subway lines.Its a throwback to the EL's of yesteryear,especially the two track line just south of Eastern Parkway.The two main problems of this line, are the big curve going from Brooklyn to Queens, and the two track line.You have to have specific equipment, because the R-44,46, or 68 are cant handle the specific curves.The TA might have to make a decision about this EL say about 5-10 years down the road when the BMT equipment starts to phase out with more modern high tech trains such as the R-143 and the R-160.I'm quite sure they are rush hour delays with only two tracks and the GT curve.The R-42 are over 30 years old as some other BMT equipment is closing on 40 years.It might be more feasible to raze the EL, than have only trains that can handle the curves on this line.
That's a stupid idea.
For one thing, there are a lot of other disadvantages to the 75 foot cars which makes it a smart idea to get 60-footers. I say 60-footers all the way.
If the el was razed, where would you send the trains? A line in the median of the Bushwick Expressway (such an expressway would be a good idea)?
How would you feel about moving the stretch between Broadway Junction and Crescent St. over to Jamaica Avenue? No more sharp curves. Three tracks all the way to 121st St. Greater flexibility in the assignment of equipment.
That would be a good idea.
Wouldn't the curve from Broadway to Jamaica be too sharp, requiring a cutoff through the ENY yard?
It would also save a stop. There would be no need for separate Crescent Street and Cypress Hills stops. Alabama Avenue would have to be eliminated in favor of Pennsylvania Avenue, but that intersect is extremely difficult. They'd have to build an arch or something.
Any attempt to move an el to another street will be met with vehement resistance from the people who live along that route.
What if a single track el (with provision for expansion) were built for that stretch solely for express running (call the express the Z). It wouldn't operate at night or on weekends (when many people are home), and only 1/4 of all Jamaica Ave trains would use it (peak direction Z). That would help keep people along Jamaica ave from complaining of the addition. The people on the old route would actually benefit, since those going to/from points east from there would prefer the Z. Anyway, except for Crescent st and Alabama ave no stops would lose any rush hour service.
What the TA is going to face in about 10 years is the fact that their aging 75-footers are stuck on the IND and/or the BMT Southern Division, the B Division's main lines, with no ability to dump them off on the Eastern Division, which has been the fate of most older subway cars over the past 40 years.
Most of the els were torn down during the Age of Optimism for mass transit construction -- the public supported it because they knew something better, a subway, would take it's place. That was true of the Sixth and Ninth Ave. els in Manhattan and the Fulton el in Brooklyn. And it was also why the Third Ave. el came down in the 1950s, because the Second Ave. bond issue had just been passed. Only a few els were torn down only because usage had dropped to the point where they were no longer needed.
Now, everyone is a lot wiser, and they know that if the el comes down, there's a 99.9 percent chance nothing is going to go in its place except for some (even slower) bus service. The people living alongside the els may want them torn down and have a subway built in their place, but most are realistic enough to know it's not going to happen.
A landmark? You have got to be kidding? Structures block sunlight, create traffic problems and are a general nuisance. How would you like to live in the shadows and noise of one of these Els? Before you wax poetics on this issue you should consider the people they effect.
Well, having lived adjacant to the L in Chicago many years ago, I found it quite pleasant - not "a general nuisance". To each his or her own...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Number #7 (International Express) IRT Has Been Protected As A National Landmark!
A landmark? You have got to be kidding? Structures block sunlight, create traffic problems and are a general nuisance. How would you like to live in the shadows and noise of one of these Els? Before you wax poetics on this issue you should consider the people they effect.
As the El structure is over a century old, the neighbors hardly can claim that it was thrust upon them against their wishes.
My main concern about landmarking is that it might make repair work more time-consuming and costly.
If these people had a choice of keeping the structure or an underground system (like what happened to the end of the J line), what do you think they would choose?
They would probably choose an underground line, of course. Like he said though, it was there first, you've no right to complain. You chose to live near the el.
Anyway, the end of the J was supposed to be a complete replacement and perhaps farther, and it certainly was not.
Dude:
I live on Jamaica Ave. I can see the el right out my bedroom window. I would not know how this neighborhood would survive without the el. Those of us who live along it's path have grown accustomed to the noise. As for me, I actually need it. On my honeymoon to Puerto Rice, I couldn't sleep at night because it was TOO quiet.
Heh. Another home feeling for me from what you said. For about two years, I lived on 204th Street and Webster Avenue next to the third avenue el ... my bedroom window on the second floor looked straight down the line since it curved into 204th street station which was RIGHT outside my window. ("How often do the trains come by?" "So often you won't notice" - Blues Brothers) No matter what time fo the day or night, those headlights on my face through the window were every ten minutes and the el was so close to my window on the west side of the house, I could climb right out, leap on the rooftop of the first floor and jump right onto the platform without a token. THAT close to it.
When I moved upstate, I couldn't sleep at all without a large FAN making noise next to my bed ... whereas 60 decibels is the normal "din of the city" ... in wintertime up here (birds largely gone) it's about 7 dB of noise and when it gets to mid-summer with the windows open, it can sometimes get up to 30 dB ... frequently we have trains through here and aside from the din of the generators on the loco which can hit 60 also if the windows are open, that sound is SO reassuring of a connection to the rest of the world, it doesn't bother me. When I attend village meetings though, everybody is whining about "those damned trains in the middle of the night" ...
Then again, given the railroad history of Voorheesville, NY, the prevailing attitude is "if you can't stand the locos and the horns, bite me." But yeah, I can't sleep well if I don't hear the click-clack of rolling steel wheels. That's why I like this place even if you're completely on your own with zero services ... gotta live independent up here and be master of your own domain or you just die ... no whiners allowed. :)
For all the whining about noise and ruining negihborhoods there are more plusses for els than gripes. They're cheaper to build, and those already in place are too expensive to replace with subways.
There is virtually no effect on surrounding streets so for el coverage of Brooklyn lets say how many of the streets have els..2 percent or less? Besides it does give a neighborhood its own character much like the Chicago L is a part of the city's heart itself.
An el can't be flooded out [unless the shipbuilding business suddenly has to multiply, Noah] and the only storms that knock them out are ice storms, at least with the open steel trestle presently on most of them. [OTOH ballasted decks would be virtually noiseless].
For me I'd rather ride an el than a subway anyday although the subways have always fascinated me, I like them; but wouldn't most people, other than "having" to ride every day, rather be outdoors?
My biggest argument though is a) an elevated highway also blocks out sunlight, b) if you consider the constant traffic noise is probably[if not in decibel level] just as offensive, c)far dirtier in form of millions of tailpipes spewing exhausts. But for some reason highways aren't a bother, but the trains are? Give me a break.
"How would you like to live in the shadows and noise of one of these Els? Before you wax poetics on this issue you should consider the people they effect."
These "els" were there before the complainers were born. The "els" didn't sprout up overnight. If anyone, house or apartment hunting in neighborhood with "els" doesn't take notice of the lack of quiet, they really shouldn't complain. Earplugs for the dummies!!
Bill "Newkirk"
HEAR!HEAR! This is a great idea.As a native Brooklynite,long gone from my hometown I think the Fulton and Myrtle els should have been preserved also.Why not resurrect the designs for the old "C" units and run them?!Multis would be okay too.Excuse my levity but as you can figure I support your idea 100%.
I don't believe in calling everything old an historic landmark. With the Broadway El, there is one little technicality: it was rebuilt girder by girder (without service interuption) during the 1910's in preparation for Dual Contracts, so it is hardly 1xx years old. If anything qualifies, it is the portion down Fulton Street, particularly where girders still exist for the Chestnut Street incline.
Even if I do appreciate the existence of this line in a big way, yes and admit to most of it being considerably modified from what it was, I'd have to nominate two el lines for landmarks.
Upper Broadway and the Westchester Ave-West Farms line both IRT. Even if unfortunately the original appearnce and ambience has been undone with modifications/modernizations they still have the nice classic waiting room buildings (at least on the southbound side) and stairways. Would be nice if they still had at least the woodwork walls with windows along the platform edge but that's never coming back.
The local stringers west of Kociousko (I know I probably spelled it wrong) street as well as the latticed columns date back to 1888. Proof of this can be seen in that short stretch of the Myrtle Avenue El still extant a block south of Broadway. The Myrtle Avenue El opened a few months after the Broadway El and was apparently designed by the same architect since its appearance was identical. The laticed steel holding up the platform at Marcy Avenue is original (which is not surprising since that's the only one of the Broadway stations not relocated during the 1915-16 reconstruction). Now what could be done is the that the MTA could restore the long defunct Park Avenue station (eliminated with the aforementioned reconstruction). The existence of the center express track makes a 100% accurate restoration impossible but it could be used as a vehicle by which to bring back the gingerbread stations of yore and be employed as a museum/learning center. This would obviously be much cheaper than restoring every station along the line and would in itself serve to bring much needed capital into the affected area.
That said I make no apologies for waxing poetic about the El. It is a piece of urban art, originally designed to be looked at as well as used for public transport. Just look at the number of responses to this message. The El strikes a deep, mythic chord in people that no other form of mass transit can come close to doing. Go to the NYC Transit Museum and see the films "If Things Could Talk" and "Third Avenue El". Better yet, pick up a copy of the book "By the EL" by Lawrence Stelter. These works convey what the El is all about; a lifelong companion for the aged and a source of endless wonder for the young. The modern conveyances of mankind can little tug at nor mold our emotions but something old and historic like the Brooklyn-Broadway El opens a window to our collective past through which can be gleaned some of the mysteries of who and what we are. As such it is something that must be studied and passed down, not scorned and torn down. It belongs to our past, our present, and our future and as such must be forever maintained and lovingly preserved.
Eric Dale Smith
I agree with all your feelings about the els. If not all at least some should be preserved, other than the economic facts that replacement is presently unaffordable, thankfully.
"By the El" was an excellent work of nostalgia and I guess one reason I bought it was its weaving of the el into the life of the neighborhoods, other than that it could have been just another train book. Not that I wouldn"t have liked it anyway.
Sadly the 3rd Ave el was a rotting architectural treasure in its last years. It was sad to see photos of how neglected those stations were.It was destroyed prematurely, dumping all the excess of customers onto the LEX. Had it been kept and restored, some of the local stops eliminated [Chicago did some of that-and some Manhattan el stops were very close just like on the original IRT lines, hence some closed], we could still have it today. But it took the loss of the Greatest big rail station of all, Penn Station to spur the Preservation movement we have today, if too late to save Penn. Then again too late for the 3rd Ave. el.
Had things been different the 2nd Ave. el would have been the logical one to save..covered some territory farther east from the Lex subway and was a stronger structure...IRT steel cars were tested on it and IIRC so were some H&M cars both around 1907-08. At the moment I can"t think whether the tests were done in passenger service. Would have been the other east side line, could handle more standardized equipment (The l907 IRT cars weighed 3 or 4 tons more than the R62) and with an express service similar to the Lex, albeit only part time since it was only 3 tracks, you"d have another good railroad on the east side. Likewise beyond the Harlem River could have served the same areas the 3rd served.
Then again it would have been nice if a couple of trains of the MUDC cars, the mainstay of the Manhattan Fleet were saved but now I'm chasing rainbows. Another poster said a few days ago IF is the biggest word in the English language.
big ed-IRTman-doubles for MANhattan L.spelled Chicago style.
Hi All-
I live in an aprtment tower ~5 blocks south of the GWB overlooking the bridge. Yesterday afternoon I spotted a set of the newly refurbed Rohr Turboliners in Acela Livery. Looked Real sharp, I must say.
1) Does anyone know to where they are running from NY and
2) How many Turbos have been Refurbed to date?
mjb69
Amtrak was supposed to have started 125mph service to Albany from NY using turbo trains. Maybe that's what you saw.
Not yet. It will be early May.
How was service on the Eastern Division J,L,M,& Z(which debut on 12/11/1988)back in the 1980s, with the R16,27/30 in service?
P.S. When the Z debut in 1988 were R27/30 running there did the signs on the R27/30 were replaced with new onces. Because I heard when the Archer Av Line open the R27/30 were still marking "168 ST JAMAICA" (the old signs) even going to Jamaica Center. Were passengers confused that day or they didn't notice it?
I have seen the riding public referred to as "Geese" in a number of posts on this board. I'm sure that transit employees would have nicknames for passengers, but I was unfamiliar with the word geese until I read it here.
Is this expression widespread, or does it just apply to NYC subway passengers?
It's often used by train crews (though I did pick it up working for the NYCTA) to describe all the honking and complaining when a train gets jammed up, like somehow yelling at the conductor or operator is going to make that train up ahead that's giving them the red ball move. Many a time I'd call in to command and inform them that the geese were squawking and I *had* to have some excuse to hand them for whatever the hell it was that had the hold lights on. You can only say "we're being held for a gap" so many times before the riots would commence in earnest. :)
And of course, "there's another train right behind this one" ... uh, yeah.
I guess they could be using a lot of words that are much worse.
Sounds like the rail equivalent of drivers stuck in traffic honking their horns. Will it make traffic move? No way. Guess it relieves frustration.
Let's not kid ourselves, geese and some more disgusting people also share a nasty habit of leaving their droppings etc. wherever most convenient, including public transportation facilities.
The elevator at one of the Buffalo Metrorail stations I was in stank horribly of it and I've seen accounts here of people doing the same on the subway in New York.
-Robert King
I tried to be nice. Heh.
>>> It's often used by train crews (though I did pick it up working for the NYCTA) to describe all the honking and complaining when a train gets jammed up <<<
It is not a new expression. IIRC the word was used by Earnest K. Gann (1910-1991) in his 1953 novel The High and the Mighty by pilots to describe their airline passengers.
Tom
Heh. Didn't know that one - but as soon as I came on the railroad, the guys I worked with were constantly complaining about the geese and it stuck quickly with me as well. When I overheard it used by a crew member on the southern crescent, I had a feeling it was more universal than just the TA ...
But they also refer to some of the planes as "roach coaches" mainly because of what you find on the passengers & in their luggage on flights from the warmer climates.
Some of Pan Am & Eastern's planes needed to get fumagated after every flight.
Mr t__:^)
>>Some of Pan Am & Eastern's planes needed to get fumagated after every flight.
Most if not all fumagation was required by the country the plane arrived in.
[Most if not all fumagation was required by the country the plane arrived in.]
It had more to do with FROM vs. TO, i.e. from warmer places like San Juan vs. London.
Mr t__:^)
I had always thought the term sheep was more popular.
Peace,
ANDEE
"Sheep" implies compliance and acceptance ... not so with real-world geese. One will start honking for no reason at all and soon the entire tidal water basin is all honking though no individual goose knows WHY it's honking. A phenom ya gotta see in action sometime. :)
I guess you "hafta see it to beeleeve it" being one who bails at the 1st sign of trouble (and not being an employee) I woudn't know.
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh. There are laws that prohibit you just walking away from the train you've pulled duty on ... and of course, no firearms either. I guess there's good reason for that. :)
Laughter works in the same manner.:-)
We try ... but seriously, if you ever find yourself near a body of water with geese on it, you've gotta kick back and wait to see the effect ... it's just like being trapped on a stalled train and everybody's looking to you to do something about it. And nobody's laughing then. :)
The Daily News reports that Governor Pataki has stepped in to allow another month for the decision on the G train.
Pataki Delays MTA Talk of G Train
And the editorial claiming victory (at least for the moment):
Editorial(scroll down to second part)
I'll be honest here, I worked for Paturkey and went through several jobs that he's killed off on me when I worked for the state. I just don't like the guy and he's done some incredibly moronic things. I must admit, this time I'm impressed. I never lived anywhere near the G train, only rode it a handful of times in all the time I lived in the city, just for the hell of it (I've ridden every mile everywhere) but it *IS* a bum deal, especially with a shiny new 63 St tunnel. Didn't ANYBODY consider that if you're going to do all that construction that an existing subway line ought to go SOMEWHERE?
Just wanted to explain that I have no particular passion towards the G though Smith-9th is still the highest station in the system. But to cut it the way they did was INSANE. Now the question becomes are they actually going to put the MONEY in so the G can at least terminate at QP? It doesn't need to go beyond there, but turning it around there has been made impossible by the current design. Now the question is what's Paturkey and his NYS Senate chambermaids gonna do about it without screwing up the rest of the railroad? Inquiring mimes are amused. :)
I'm pleased with the Governor's decision, in general. I've maintained that the TA could reduce crowding at Queens Plaza in a more creative way. Putting the brakes on cutting the G line will likely (temporarilly) kill the V train as I don't see where the extra cars will come from. The unfortunate part of this whole issue is that mark Green is for it. I can't seem to stand being on the same side of any issue with him.
I'll repeat this again. Listen carefully, G train riders/whiners:
Get off at Court Sq. and walk to the E/V at Ely Ave. Stop crying for unnecessary service just because you're too damned lazy to walk through the passageway.
Someone needs to muzzle the News's irresponsibe and uneducated editorial staff, and Mr. Pataki should keep his nose in Albany and out of downtown Brooklyn.
"Someone needs to muzzle the News's irresponsibe and uneducated editorial staff, and Mr. Pataki should keep his nose in Albany and out of downtown Brooklyn."
Anytime this governor pays attention to NYC residents that's a good thing. His problem is that he doesn't pay enough attention to NYC.
I am willing to support the current MTA plan, but that doesn't mean I don't respect other people's concerns. When you take a box of muzzles to put on the Daily News people, do like they instruct on the airlines, and be sure to put one on yourself first.
He don't do squat for upstate either which is WHY we have Senator Hillary ... she at least NOTICED that we're up here. That's why we elected her ...
Don't forget though, Paturkey's up next year ... it's PANDER BEAR season and everybody gets to sit on his lap. Ignore that gun in his pants. :)
Hillary Clinton has used every voter in this state for only one purpose: to foster further her political ambitions. Any New Yorker who feels she cares a rat's behind about any one of us is in serious denial.
But I digress ...
Well, she already introduced a bill about what *WE* care about, bringing decent telephone service to upstate - a 24k connect rate with a 56k modem is a REALLY good day up here. DSL? What's that? Cable modem? In my dreams maybe - TimeWarner says we MIGHT see that as early as 2004 ... so Hillary's already scored BIGTIME up here in Republand.
Her appearance at the St. Paddy's parade up in Syracuse this coming Saturday will be a good indication of public attitudes in Central New York one way or the other.
Hopefully the rest of us will get a news feed of the results. I know Syracuse just got a real airline for their airport finally - folks there had to come to Albany (whose airport is no great shakes either) just to fly anywhere ... and with Hamtrak cutting back "bigtime" on service now, that airport's going to be the only way in or out of town there.
Hey, US Airways made about 90 percent of their money (seemlingly) by overcharging people on flights out of Syracuse. I'm sure United isn't going to give up on that cash cow.
And of course there's always the monotone dog down from Syrcause to NYC (always via Binghamton, never via Albany, unless you want to tack an extra two hours onto your trip)
Well, for now there's another airline (sorry, I don't keep track of what goes on out there) and grey running mutt? Nah, I'd rather strap myself to a rocket. It's safer. :)
I'll have to check to see who's the new competition for US Airways/United. If it was Southwest (led by the fun-loving and gutter-mouthed Herb Kelleher), that would cut the price of flights out of Syracuse almost immediately by about 60 percent.
As for the bus runs out of Salt City, the leg to Binghamton usually wasn't that bad if you hooked up with the Canadian route going from Ottawa to Washington, D.C. (the Diplomat Special, I guess), since their creature comforts tended to be a lot nicer than what the people in Phoenix (now Dallas) were offering. And their drivers were a little more punctual -- I once sat on a dog for about two hours in Binghamton appearently because the driver opted to stay home and watch Super Bowl XII. And it was one of those Super 7 Senicruisers with 15 years of cigar smoke and cleaning fluid buildup inside. Yuch.
And of course, the requisite "bus game" ... "guess the psychosis of your seatmate" that makes anything Hamtrak does ... forgiveable. :)
I'm not sure but it might be Southwest - they came into Smallbany and made it possible to fly out of here at a price lower than going to Australia ... you guys will love this - "Albany INTERNATIONAL Airport" however the "international" is an occasional charter flight to Montreal. Gotta love it.
I know Syracuse just got a real airline for their airport finally
??? I flew Northwest from Syracuse in 1997. That's surely a real airline, as is American, which I know also serves Syracuse. Oh, and, of course, US Airways.
(Why "of course"? Because, IINM, US Airways serves every single airport in New York State that offers commercial flights at all. Some of those airports are served by no one but US Airways.)
It's one thing to wear garlic around your neck to ward off vampires. It's quite another to wear a necklace of feces. Seems to me that those of you who elected hilly, hung $#!+ around the neck of every New Yorker.
I could not have said it better, myself.
Last comment I'll make with politics in it - you guys have your shrub. Let's see who does more for NY ...
[Don't forget though, Paturkey's up next year ... it's PANDER BEAR season and everybody gets to sit on his lap. Ignore that gun in his pants. :)]
I hope so. He's been a real disappointment. But I thought he was fairly popular upstate?
He is in some quadrants, but after 7 years, many of us are beginning to wonder when any of those promises he's been making will be delivered. So far we ain't seen anything larger than a $5. :)
Those of us in the "capital district" are STILL wondering when Frito-Lay is going to come in and build that high tech chip plant, and it seems that any of the new jobs that come in head straight to Senate Majority Leader Joe Bruno's district in Troy and not much anywhere else. Meanwhile, what industrial gigs there WERE up here are still packing up and leaving and that was supposed to stop once we got rid of Padre Mario ... it hasn't ... if you don't create your own gig, there's slim pickings for work up here unless you want to sell paint at Wal*Mart ...
[Meanwhile, what industrial gigs there WERE up here are still packing up and leaving and that was supposed to stop once we got rid of Padre Mario ... it hasn't ... if you don't create your own gig, there's slim pickings for work up here unless you want to sell paint at Wal*Mart ...]
It's a crying shame. With the state's two top offices in the hands of Republicans, we had a real opportunity to demonstrate the business benefits of bringing the state's taxation back into line with the rest of the country's. Giuliani cut where he could, but after his initial SUNY and transit cuts Pataki resumed the spending habits of his predecessors.
Highest taxes in the country (almost), lowest growth (almost) -- it doesn't take a genius to suss out the connection.
Idea! Idea!
No V, leave the G to 71st, and still send the F through 63rd! Lets see who complains more loudly!
Anyone care to draw a fantasy map of how the trains would run if politicians decide to dictate the routes? Hey, they know how to gerymander strange voting districts, the new routes might be fun: like non-stop service between stations which serve local party bosses and the stations closest to their jobs. No service to districts that vote for the other party, etc...
The map would undoubtedly mirror the amount of power each state assembly district and city council leader has. Thus Astoria would have a 4 track line on every block and East New York would have absolutley nothing.
Ever notice how great the service is by City Hall?
Anyone know the deal with car #'s 1661-1670? They have the 1/9 train color labels under the car numbers AND they have the 1/9 line maps in the interior, near the ceiling. Are these cars going back to the 1/9? (They used to be on the Broadway IRT line, but were sent to the Pelham line about ten years ago.) You know, I have heard and saw a lot of things going on with these cars, but I thought those R62A's were going to the 7 line, NOT the 1/9. Who knows for sure? E-mail me:
carlwal@hotmail.com
Clear this up for me, please.
CWalNYC (8^)
Thanx in advance!
The Boys are Coming Home.
Y'mean the R62A's are going back to the 1/9? Are you serious? E-mail me.
CWalNYC
They went to the 1/9 for about 2 weeks, a permanent transfer, but then the R-142a governor cap problem was discovered and the 6 needed them back. The 10 cars sent to the 3 a few years ago were also called back. This is also why R-33s from the 2 and 4 have been making appearances on the 6.
I have noticed R62A #1886-1890 and #1896-1900 operating on the "3" train on Wednesday, March 7. They operated on two separate trains.
You can't operate them on the same train. They would tie up traffic at the turnoff after 135th Street. The 10th car doesn't clear the switch entirely so the switch can't be moved so 2 trains can't leave/join the Lenox Avenue line. That is why the 3 can't operate 10 car trains although presumebly, they will do so once the R142/R142A order arrives in its entirety. How they will do that though, I do not know.
When the M Train used to terminate at Bay 50 Street, what was the procedure for turning trains?
The "M" train never terminated at Bay 50th. I do recall the "B" terminating there.
After discharging at B 50, trains would proceed past the slip switch and then wrong rail and switch back to the N/B track.
There are some Jerome Av R33's on the #6 line as well as some 7 train R36's (e.g. #9420-9421 and #9456-9457). Before, the #2 line R33's roamed the Pelham rails for periods of time; now, the cars from the Flushing line are clickety-clackin' over on the mainline. And from time to time, the #2 line R33's run on the 5 line and the 5's R26/28/29 cars are on the 2. Even the #6 line R62A's are on the Lenox Avenue IRT line (e.g. #1886-1890 and #1896-1900) from time to time.
Oh, don't even mention the BMT/IND car mixups. They are one too many. I'll say only a few: the R40 slants are on the Q, L and N lines, and the R32 Brightliners are on the C, E, N, and R lines.
Well, bye-bye for now!
CWalNYC (8^)
I constantly read about various contracts issued by the TA for signal replacement or new switches or station rehabs. My question does the TA with its different divisions such as stations or signals do some of this work in house?
Nope ... under the Paturkey regime, that would be "bad for business" ... so whereas you used to have people "in house" who knew everything about this stuff and could do it, you now have "consultants, independent contractors and vendors" ... which means money for the Second Avenue subway gets spent on THESE guys instead. Sorry, but them's the realities ...
Not quite true. part of the collective bargaining agreement between the TA & TWU contains a clause (I don't have the number handy). It has to do with farming out of work. Before the TA can go outside to get work done, if it can be done in-house, it must be presented to the union via te 'farming out' comittee. Only if the union can't do the job as inexpensively or in as timely a fashion as the contractor, is the TA able to farm it out.
[Before the TA can go outside to get work done, if it can be done in-house, it must be presented to the union via te 'farming out' comittee. Only if the union can't do the job as inexpensively or in as timely a fashion as the contractor, is the TA able to farm it out.]
Why would the TA go out of house if they could do it cheaper themselves?
To answer your hypothetical question, with a hypothetical answer: Corruption, Graft, Pay-offs, Patronage.
It's nice to see that some effort is being made to save a few bucks here and there.
I think you should re-read the posting to which you are responding to. It did say that the TA only goes outside if the union can't match the outside contractor in cost & speed. It seems to me that this is a logical way to get the TWU members to protect their jobs by being more productive and competetive. No?
But nothing has been said about the third side of the triangle: quality. In project management we have a saying: you can have it cheap, you can have it good, you can have it fast - pick any two. As a general rule, if you go for fast and cheap the quality will suffer. Whichever group can do it cheaper and better, even if it takes a bit longer (or faster and better, even if it costs more) is probably the better choice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Unfortunately, the "bidding process" ignores those factors. The rule of thumb in this state (and most others) is the "lowest QUALIFIED bidder" which means if you don't go for Mr Haney with his "genuwine grabwell," you are then required to PROVE that the "genuine grabwell" will eat children and spout toxic waste or Haney gets the contract. When I worked for the state a few years ago, I wrote bids and had to do the bid qualifications. Another prohibition is that you cannot write the bids to specifically deny a vendor you know is troublesome. The "detailed specifications" have to be generic enough so that anybody can have a rip at it but if you're very careful, you can write them so that really bad stuff can't meet the standard so long as you justify in detail WHY really bad stuff is bad. A genuine pain.
But the low bidder wins unless they molested a politician's daughter. The private sector isn't anywhere near as insane but there have been lawsuits there as well ...
Quality is definitely a problem. One way around it on large projects is to make the contractor responsible for demonstrating performance - offering a bonus if standards are exceeded and a penalty if they're not. Offering a little extra up front to make sure the job gets done right the first time saves money in the long run.
When it's construction, that's relatively easy to put in there. When it's commodities or equipment, you're buying a pig in a poke unless you choose wisely. Another propensity in gubbamint service is that if you have a genuine area of expertise, then they'll make you do something like buying toilet paper instead for fear that you might collude with vendors ... there's reasons things turn out so strange when bids are let ... many, many of them. :)
I'm sure it's no different for the "M" ...
I agree with your sentiment. I think the Port Authority's putting the responsibility for operating AirTrain on Bombardier is not a bad idea. While Adtranz' monorail to EWR had a problem, the PA did show that the contractor could be held accountable, and the source of the problem was found and corrected. Bombardier's contract even includes a requirement that any graffitti must becleaned off within 24 hours.
We'll see how this goes. I'm very pleased with the way construction has gone so far.
The folks who actually try to bring contracts all together really do try to do it right. Unfortunately, things done in government are subject to antigravity by the morons we keep re-electing. Ultimately the best laid plans can be completely undone with one phone call to the right politico from a properly connected vendor. I've seen it myself, got sick of it, and that's why I work for my wife now. :)
>>>Bombardier's contract even includes a requirement that any graffitti must becleaned off within 24 hours.
Ron: INtersting idea here. So where was Bombardier in the early 80's when we could have really used this? :)
-cordially,
turnstiles
This is by no means a new concept. Morrison Knudsen's railcar division and its' successor wre involved in several such ventures. Two that come to mind are the system in Hawaii and in Buenos Aires. I'm not sure at what stage either project is but the plan was for M&K to build one and rebuild the other and then run it for a minimum of 5 years. The Florida Tri-rail system, that runs from PalmBeach county to Dade County is operated on a slightly different scheme. The track and signals belong to CSX and the cars are maintained by a company called Hertzog. The tri-rail people only operate the trains and collect the money. On a much smaller scale, when the TA bought the SCM1 group switch boxes, GE wanted to sell them with a maintenance contract - that the TA did not accept.
[I agree with your sentiment. I think the Port Authority's putting the responsibility for operating AirTrain on Bombardier is not a bad idea.]
I think you may be right. I'd like to see it go a step further, with construction done by private operating entities which stand to gain from quality and economy.
Of course, government can still mess things up, by retaining a monopoly which provides lousy service (Time Warner, Verizon) or kicking out a good franchise and replacing it with a bad political one (the bus shelter companies). But it seems to me that even a private monopoly is more effective than a government one.
[I think you should re-read the posting to which you are responding to. It did say that the TA only goes outside if the union can't match the outside contractor in cost & speed.]
Yes, of course. I was questioning the need for the committee.
Interesting ... looks like TWU still has some bargaining capacity. CSEA and PEF didn't upstate ...
I just wanted to say thank you for telling me about the Motorman rodeo. I would appreciate it if someone can email me if they ever find out what day it is exactly so I may tell my boss that I will be unable to make it so I may go see this rodeo. I have never been to one. I need to know well enough so I can ask my McDonalds boss to let mew off for the day. Grill operators don't get sick days like Train operators. LOL
It would seem to me that if you followed your own recent thread you'd have the answer to your question. Don't make me say the obvious.
E, I thought your father is a T/O??? Are you pulling our collective legs?
BMTman
Well today Broadway was beautiful. Instead of the usual Hippos and Rhinos, there was alot of R32s out on Broadway.
And I caught not one, but two blazin' R32's on the N.
First from Canal street to QB Plaza. Got the front car and got the window view. We zoomed up on Bway express, this time no slow zones so we got up to speed.
Then later the 60th street tube, and man it was fast. It feels like less than a minute from end to end. Got off at QB Plaza to see another R32 N train pull in on the lower level.
Couldn't get to the front car but worked my way toward the rear as we left. I got to the next to last car and we picked up awesome speed going down on the ramp. After the initial timers the guy just wrapped it all the way. I wasn't going any further, I don't like changing cars at that speed. I managed to prop the door open between cars a little for a second and peer out into the tunnel. This was even faster than the previous run. Tunnel lights looked like a steady stripe we were going so fast. The awesome roar was deafening. Now this is the kind of subway ride I like! We rocked and rolled through there.
Man what a great ride. I don't have the guts to stand in between cars going that fast, I wonder, has anybody here experienced an in between car ride on a fast strectch or an under river tube?
Yesterday I took a very VERY SICK ride on a R-38. I took it from Aqueduct to 145th Street on the A line. It flew all the way. It almost derailed from 59th to 125th. The R-32s and 38s are the best subway trains the TA has. The Redbirds scare a lot of people on the Lexington Express, too! The R-44s and 46s are garbage. Trash them and rebuild the R-3Xs!!!!!!!!
I wish I had been there.
East River tunnel-wise, the BMT standards used to get a good head of steam going through the 14th St. tunnel, bull and pinion gears wailing away at Ab above middle C before the laborious uphill climb began.
I have been on 4 trains of R-62s which got up to 50 in the Joralemon St. tunnel.
I rode PATH this past XMAS where under the Hudson I could swear we must've hit at least 60 or 65 quite easily. This is fairly safe provided it is all straightaway track and the train itself is not travelling "lite", otherwise the danger of derailment increases almost exponentially if tight curves and light weight are thrown into the equation. . .
I ride the #3 as often as I can specifically for this purpose. That line's glory days have to have been in the 1970s when it ran nothing but R-15s and R-17s, which would, I thought as a child, whizz through the local stations on the center express tracks at what looked like easily 65+ mph!!! But damn, they sure were very noisy!!!
Regards, ThomasTheSubwayEngine :-)
Which PATH line? 33rd or WTC??
I think the north PATH tubes from 33rd street are faster than the WTC ones.
I wanna say 34th st, am 90% certain. . . -Peace, Thomas :/
Then all we need is for the N train to run express on Broadway over the Manhattan Bridge (where it belongs!) and on 4th Avenue in Brooklyn. Then a part time express run down the remaining Sea Beach express track. Sounds like the recipe for one kick-ass line. How 'bout it?
Sounds great--while we're at it, why not include rush-hour express service, peak direction, on the Astoria line?
Dan
Yea, how about it? I've been droning on like that for two years and haven't made a dent in the TA's thinking, but you and others are starting to mouth similar thoughts maybe someone at the MTA might get a brain charge for a change and implement our suggestions. The Sea Beach was once a kick-ass line and that;s how I remember it. But since I'm the old warhorse onthis site very few of my lodge brothers are old enough to remember. It's tough being thought of as as anachronism.
I've been 'between the slants' through the 60th st tube. I couldn't hear for 1 minute after arriving at QBP. I've also chilled between R-46 cars through the tube, but not fully intentionally: I was passing through and the train sped up before I could hit the switch for the next car, and I didn't feel like letting go of the handles until the train slowed down.
How did you get into the predictament of needing to "hit the switch for the next car"? If you have a key or pry the door open with a foreign object, all I can say is to be careful! You may get spotted by an undercover cop at some point.
My house key does the trick. Anyway, what exactly is wrong with that that a cop may have grounds to stop me on? Nothing's broken or vandalized, I'm not entering, and I'm not using it as an exit to the train.
The storm doors at the ends of the cars are locked for reasons that you and I are well aware of. Even though you are smart enough not to cross thru while the train is going around a curve, the fact of the matter is you are a passenger just like everybody else, you must abide by the same rules, you are not an employee yet, and those doors are locked for the safety of everyone. If there is an emergency, the storm door glass is easily pushed out.
to open door on R-44 and R-46 you need a small flathead, insert in hole thenoush down, door pops, on most R-44s on the A and Rock Park Shuttle, just pull really hard, no screw driver required
What is your reason to pry open the door? If there is a problem, the protocol is to pull the cord, or wait to the next stop to change cars, or push out the glass. Once you and others do your trick enough times, the door can easily be pulled open and not lock properly because you weakened the locking/latch assembly. And Murphys law tells me that some passenger who is not a regular rider may some day go thru the door whose lock you and others who know your trick weakened and get crushed by the scissoring effect those cars do around some tight curves. What next? You will rake the TA over the coals here on SubTalk for not maintaining the equipment!
The Slants really roar through there!! No wonder why C/R's wear ear protectors!!
Sometimes a C/R will make the announcement for the next stop while the train is still in the tube, and you can barely hear them over the roar.
Trains regularly get up to 55mph or more in there.
Speeds: 49MPH toward QBP, 62 MPH toward Lex {Is this as fast as the subway allows any train to get?}
For some reason it is always faster Manhattan bound. I think that the ramp may have something to do with it. Once those timers clear they just wrap it up and go.
I think that 62mph is one of the fastest speeds in the subway, in the Manhattan bound 60th street tube on an N (R's have to slow for switch).
Any other areas that can top 60th street?
As far as I know nothing beats the N ride Manhattan bound through 60th St. I've never been on it, but that Part 2 of Zman series explains it. It gains speed on the hill, and does not have to slow down for anything so it gets to 62MPH, the R gets to 50MPH b/c of the switch.
"Hippos" can be fast too. Yesterday I rode an R-46 Manhattan-bound, and it hit 55 mph in the 60th street tube. The motorman had the cab door fully propped open with the slipper. He saw my rail-realted cap, and said, "I'll leave the door open if you stand at the pole and hold on." Yeah.
By Hippos I mean the R68 cars. R46's are fast sometimes, and they nicknamed "Rhinos". A Rhino can sometimes run, but Hippos are slow.
R46 -> Rhino
R68 -> Hippo
R68A -> R68A
Please update your nickname vocabulary now. Thank you.
Just out of curiosity, where do the R-44s figure in this analogy? Somewhere between a Rhino and a Hippo, I suppose.
Sorry. I read the wrong label on the cage at the zoo.
How fast could an IRT Low -V make on an express run, say the express track from 86th st. to 59th st.? How fast could a standard or a D-type go on the Brighton express tracks bound for Stillwell? I used to marvel at those old workhorses when I was little, and now I can finally ask. What about those wonderful old cars that used to run on the Myrtle Ave el in Brooklyn in the 50's?
I only rode on the BMT standards out of that bunch, and while they weren't noted for their speed, they could move swiftly once they got rolling. The Q cars on the Myrtle Ave. line were notoriously slow because of the maximum traction trucks they were mounted on. The motors on those were smaller than those on the cars' original trucks. They could barely make the grade at Broadway. Everybody out and push!
The Triplexes, from what I've read, didn't accelerate very swiftly, but once they got going, watch out! They could move; one volunteer at the Transit Museum was telling a group of schoolkids that they could do 65. The Lo-Vs could hold their own on express runs. They were fast.
Any chance that the Low-V's in the transit museum collection would get taken out fora run for old time sake? That would be worth a trip, but the fans would have to be kept off, the windows protected, and who knows what else would have to be done to keep the ride a safe one.
AFAIK the museum Lo-Vs need some sort of work (cosmetic, mechanical, or asbestos removal) before they can go out again. I was bummed about missing the 90th anniversary run on the 42nd St. shuttle in 1994. I was in the city the week before.
I hope to hear and see them in action sometime soon. The sound that they made was music to my ears. My kids could not believe that when they saw them in the transit museum, so a live action trip would silence any doubters.
They had the same spur-cut bull and pinion gears as the other prewar rolling stock, so they would have sounded the same as the R-1/9s and BMT standards when accelerating. I guess the braking sounds would have been different. Since I never rode on the Lo-Vs myself, I have no idea how their brakes sounded.
Todd, if you believe what those speedometers, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you. I had a hippo Thursday which said I was doing 99 MPH while operating on that new express track on the Sea Beach. Those timers aren't that fast but anyway, welcome back to NY.
of course they rock through the tunnel. R-32's do 52 miles an hour r-68's can do 60, and R-46 can do 52-55. however only on two of these models, the speedometer isn't accurate. and also, it just feels fast but its not doing the speed you think it is they are always doing the posted 40 or 45 and sometimes 50(5 miles over posted) it feels like less than a minute but, try 2and a half minutes getting through the tunnel. going uphill they lose their speed.
I just remebered about what the tubes were like before 1997. They still had fluorescent lighting, when you went through it was like Star Trek at warp speed. Especially the side view. And the lights were on both sides of the tunnel, so it seemed almost like two solid while lines on either side if you looked at a certain angle.
IMHO all tunnels should have fluorescent lighting, like on PATH.
Well I believe they are flourescent, but the modern bulb like style, not the tubes.
The tubes look cool though, it must've been something when they had them in 60th street. Unfortunately, in 1997 I hadn't rode the subway yet.
I wonder why the TA replaced the tubes. If they were functioning properly why fix it if it "aint broke"? I guess just another way to waste money I guess.
Well several places still have flourescent tube lighting
63rd street line from 57th to 21st.
Jorelemon street tube 4,5
Archer Avenue extenstion E,J,Z
Speaking of lights, speed and 60th street - there have been a few times (particulary during summer months, if I recall right) when they'd turn the inside lights out while above ground in astoria and forget to turn ehm on at QP - the result was speeding through the tube with all the tunnel lights zipping by, creating a strobelight effect as if you were in a dance club. I'm surprised no one has used it for making a music video of some sort.
-Joe
Does anybody railfan to music??
Sometimes I do. An example of what I have listened to over the past few days
Bob Seger-Shame on the Moon-E train 53rd street tube
Ronnie Milsap-Any Day Now-N train 60th street tunnel
Nillson-Without You-F train on Queens Blvd express
Bellamy Bros-Let your love Flow-Q train on brighton express
Cars-Drive-Q train in 6th ave dash
Michael Learns to Rock-Nothing to Lose-LIRR racing through Queens
Coors-Breathless-7 express
When I'm in the mood a little music can make railfanning even more enjoyable.
Of course there are alot of great musicians that play in subway stations. Traditional chinese music seems to be quite prevelant, especially at stations on the BMT Broadway line. That is my favorite.
Yep, so do I occassionally as usually I like to remain oblivious to everything cept of course the trip and my music. You might also try
Eddie Money's (former NYPD, incidentally!) "Two tickets to paradise",
Pat Benatar's "Invincible", (like what the redbirds are) One 2 Many's "Downtown", the Ozz-meister's (yep, you guessed it,) "Crazy Train", Scorpion's "Rock you like a hurricane", Journey's "Wheel in the Sky",and just about anything by 70s greats BTO, Steam, CCR, ELO,etc.
Kudos to all those who give generously to NYC underground subway musicians like as I do , as they keep this madhouse fairly tolerable in addition to adding flavor and culture to the system.
Regards, ThomasTheSubwayEngine :-)
Going back to my mid-50's thru early 60's rock and roll I've done that with many of those records, can only think of a few at the moment.
Never let You Go-5 Discs-l962: riding the State St. Subway in Chicago when they still had skip stops, roaring thru passed stations.
Every Day I Have To Cry: Steve Alaimo-62; riding the South Side el on the 6000's mostly on the expressway part before it got to Indiana Ave.
I Wonder Why-Dion & Belmonts-58; The IRT Broadway express south between 96 and 72.
Back Beat #1- Rondels- Lex exp. north 86-125, likewise Topsy by Cozy Cole, in this case when they had the 110 st. timer; both of these are instrumental.
I'd have to do a lot of mental digging and most of you wouldn't relate to my music but just thought I'd admit my own guilt to something the performers never had in mind, but weenjoy it.
I often take the 7 on fridays into the city because its near my skool. I do live near the E. But I decided to take the N a while back. I rode an R32N between Queensboro plaza to Lex. Tell me why I was talking to the Motorman ofr a minute because we were held in QBP by a Red Homeball awaiting a 7 Train. He told me do I like Trains and which one do I know well about? I told him I like R46 cars the best, and I live near the E. He told me he ran the E the day b4, and He likes the R46's for its Motorman seat, but nothing beats the express run on an R32 of an E. But he was also very happy because he had R32 3862, preparing to enter the 60th street tube. Anyway he tells me the R32's have the best brakes. He leaves QBP finally and went into the tunnel. All timers went green and I looked at his Speedometer and max speed was 65!!!. So that is a great run, especially on the R32's. I believe even though R68's are slow, they could get goodspeed thru there!!
Does anybody has any idea if the NYCTA is painting a set of
redbirds, and LOW V's for the 100th year?
You must have missed our previous discussion. The Transit Museum requested suggestions for what to do for the anniversary. We all wrote a letter offering our ideas.
Read it here
Dave,
I assume the letter was sent to the T.A. , if so............
Did you receive any acknowledgement as regards to the letter ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I haven't seen many R-142 or 142a's on the 6 or 2 lines. Where are they? Maybe I've just been missing them. And, when is the TA going to start using the dozen or so of them piled up in the yard?
Yes, why are they sitting in the yard collecting grafitti? We want answers! We need to get the TA to start giving answers to why we are not seeing R142/142As in passenger service?
"Yes, why are they sitting in the yard collecting grafitti? We want answers! We need to get the TA to start giving answers to why we are not seeing R142/142As in passenger service? "
The logical answer to this is there are some bugs to be corrected that's keeping the R-142's from revenue service. Now, what the bugs are remains to be seen. Are R-142's still being delivered ?
Bill "Newkirk"
of course they are still being delivered. if they are being delivered then glithces couldn't be the problem. R-142A's are running. mostlikely they are adding modifications to them (i assume governers on all of them) if there were glitches from the beginning, then they would have never permitted delivery from the first new set after the prototypes. anyway, its been two weeks since they've been in the yard. i predict they would start them running the 2 line and hopefully the 5 line (at least one or two would make it to revenue service)
correction to myself. prediction of starting service on monday morning 3/12/01
I saw a train of R-142As in revenue service on the 6 on Saturday afternoon (heading downtown on the express track between GCT and 14th Street; there was a G.O. in effect rerouting local trains on to the express track).
There are at least a few sets of R-142As in service; I've seen 7231-7240 and 7261-7270 in the past week. I guess the problems are only with the Bombardiers -- the crippling problems, anyway. The 142As still seem to have some trouble with the interior lights staying on.
Yes, Mike the Bombardier cars have the more severe problems. That's why deliveries have stopped altogether, unlike the R-142A's which -- I believe -- are still being delivered.
BMTman
Couple week ago i was on R142 #7280-#7271 & they have interior lights too. Every time they hit something on the third rail & the interior light blink it couple time. But i see few R142 running last week.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Soon to be NYCT-MTA Traffic Checker
there are no crippling problems. they were yanked because of busting 60mph. and they haven't stopped delivering them either. where are you getting your sourced from?
My "source" was this very thread, which is dicussing why so many sets of Bombardier cars are in storage and not under 7 Ave. Keep in mind those cars "busted 60mph" because of faulty governors. There arenow brake problems, according to a T/O who posts on the Straphangers Campaign board.
One correction from my previous post: I've seen 7231-40 and 7251-60 on the 6, not 7261-70. It was on 7231-40 that I experience lighting problems. I saw a set running this morning, but I didn't get the numbers.
you mean with the ones that were in service because there many more R-142's and R-142a's that heven't seen a rail except the ones in the yard. also my brother in law who works for ta at E-180th told me that the few that were in were out for that reason,and that there were know other problems besides the small glitching that happens from time to time. thats why i asked where you got your sources. he also told me that the R-142A's are getting their pads replaced because its a cheap material that its made with. the R-142's were getting the treatment first. thats why i asked because you made it sound like they were having a problem every minute. and its funny how on the post that when one model craps out for a while and the other is still running and then the problems switch, they both get called a lemon or a good piece of work. all i can say is a problem is a problem and as long as they fix it, its fine with me.
[and they haven't stopped delivering them either.]
Not true. The last set of R-142's I believe were 6401-05 about a month ago.
BMTman
Really? I rode on 6411-20 a couple of months ago during Winter Break. They seemed to be running fine to me.
6411-20 were broken up sometime afterward, with each 5 car set spending time at 207th Street for inspection and necessary work (if any).
-Stef
I saw 6451-6450 at 145 street on the 1 this AM heading North on the center track (running light).
just to let you know. both 6411-20 are back at unionport/E. 180th
yes i just found out they did stop the delivery. my brother in-law told me they stopped delivering both R-142/142A because of break pads. they are cheap material. they are replacing them before they send more.
What I'm hearing is this: Joe Hoffman (the chief suit in the Dept of Subways), is not satified on how the current R142's are performing and does not want more to enter service till the bugs are ironed out on the cars currently running. And all this time we've been hearing that Redbirds will be stored in various places as these R142's enter service en-masse. Hell, at this rate they'll have to store the R142's in the places where they were going to store the Redbirds because they're coming in and are not running! And listen to this: the TA has ordered another 350 R142's. That's a total of 1,030 R142's from Bombardier!
They'd better get them working and into service in the next couple of months, before the Post and/or News figures out what's happened and hypes it as another major failure in the subway system, making it sound even worse than it actually is (the tabloids hype bad news about the subway? Naw, they'd never, ever do that. Wouldn't think of it...)
Hell, at this rate they'll have to store the R142's in the places where they were going to store the Redbirds because they're coming in and are not running!
Ya mean the bottom of the Atlantic??
(Sorry, that one was left wide open...)
You are the fish who bit the bait!
What I heard is that the R-142's have braking problems, while the R-142A's have door indication light problems (either that or my info is reversed).
BMTman
As an addition to what was recently mention on how 6504 and 6404 got to display the artwork of vandals. Cars 6403 and 6402 got hit, but you couldn't see it because it was blocked off by another set in the yard. Fortunately it wasn't to the extent that was on 6405.
mr pork one time posted they took over the # 2 line which used to served by redbirds !! i guess he knows best he lives there??
The 2 is still more than 90% Redbird. The R-142 is in the minority, but it's there.
allright !! thanks for the information !! i wonder if the 142s are fast enough to keep up with the redbirds!!
They were faster than the Redbirds. They got yanked after one hit 60 MPH !!
M.A.R.T.A. subway cars ( I was told when i lived there ) could excel 100mph!
What I was posting was are they set to run at some "govonor" pre set speed !!
The redbirds do not have any govonors right ??
i hope i spelled the word govonor right ...
My aunt missed an R142A on the 6 yesterday. They are definately running.
Yeah, they are running. 3 sets on the (6) and 1 set on the (2).
Actually, I have seen a set of five cars running out of service on the 1 line, passing by 168th St and I believe I have also seen a set in the 207th St yards in the morning...
I was under the impression that 180th St was completely updated to deal exclusively with these cars.. Any guesses for why they would be in upper Manhattan?
Taken to the 207 Yard for something something
with their trucks.. ahhhh.. something Stef said.
south ferry ! is it true the 142s have taken over the #2 line ?? ......!!!
No. The 142's have begun their arrival on the 2, but about 85% of 2 trains are still redbirds. And, Redbirds are crappy, so please don't cheer for them. You don't have to ride them during rush hour.
only 142s during rush hour ??
Storage.
There was one set of R142 on the 2 this past Saturday. It was leaving Church Ave northbound.
Looks like 6321-25 and 6346-50 made their operating debut. I was coming uptown after 9nish when a set passed me southbound and had passengers in it, but returned northbound light.
-Stef
I have the money put away in a cardboard box. I've polished my mouse and keyboard. Does anyone have any idea WHEN in Spring the Train Simulator is due? I've played mechanic, and it's not bad. But, MTS looks hot! I can't wait! I wish I hadn't found out about it until it was out. Thanks, guys! ;)
Your computer had better be up to snuff, MSTS will like at least a Ge Force II Video adapter and a good sound card with decent speakers and at least 128 Meg. of RAM. on a 450 Mhz processor, minimum.
Well that puts me and my PacBell out of the equation. It's got 150Mhz
and 40mb of ram.
Man, I've got to get a NEW computer!
In most cases, it is possible and much more financially expediant to simply have your computer's CPU, RAM cache memory, sound-card, etc. swapped out for better ones rather than replacing your entire computer. . . :-/ Peace, Thomas
But in his case, everything probably has to be swapped out.
Unless he wants to get a 200 MHz processor, he'd need a new motherboard. A new ATX enclosure for it and so on.
The only thing that would stay the same is the only thing that hasn't been updated in 15 years: the floppy drive (I guess the keyboard and mouse could remain, but once you've spent enough money, those things cost peanuts).
Right choo are, Porkster!! . . .Which is the reason I said in MOST cases. Sometimes, a computer can be so antiquated that to replace everything needing upgrading comes out to probably MORE than the cost of a new bargain price PC. Funny, I keep hearing legends about these so-called "FREE AFTER REBATE" PCs but still havn't seen any yet. . .
Peace and GB, Thomas :-)
I've got an HP with 32 megs RAM and 120 Mhz. For some odd reason it's faster than my school computers (466 Mhz, 128 MB RAM). Must be the software (I use Word 6.0, Bahn, Napster 2.0 beta 2 (1999), Encarta 96, old DOS games, nothing processor demanding). Or the OS(I have Windows NT 4 and the 1997 Beta of Win 98, while the school has NT 5 aka 2000).
Most likely the school computer has plenty of processor intensive background applications.
The server: Probably. The individual computers: Task Manager's Processor meter never jumps above 18 percent. But for some reason everything is sluggish. While typing and using menus it's the absolute worst. I finish typing a paragraph and the last 4 words haven't appeared on the screen yet. Ah well, whay do you expect for 30 computers purchased with $15,000. The older ones (1.5 years old) are much worse, and are the ones in all the classrooms that the teachers must use. They bought almost 200 of those. To start IE (which technically is already running) it takes about 75 seconds (I timed it), and that's opening a file on the local hard drive!
Then it's cheap crap.
I run Windows 2000 SP1 on a 500 MHz Pentium III with 128 MB of DIMM SDRAM and 512KB of L1 Cache RAM.
It's fast. I can't even see the fade effect on opening menus. Except on the programs menu when I have Personalized Menus turned off.
I'm running Windows ME/2000/NT40 on a 450MHZ CPU, 256mb of RAM, 1MB of Cache. My computer flies. I'm thinking of upgrading to a 550mhz CPU. My machine can go up to 512MB of RAM, too. I use AMD CPUs which I think are just as good as Intel. I've ran speed tests, and in some cases the AMD actually was FASTER then the Pentium.
I guess I need a new video card. I cheaped out on that one since it was the last thing that I bought when I assembled my computer.
As for my speakers, they're bigger than the actual computer unit.
Only two however :-)
Dear TM: Good news, I hope at least eventually. I've e-mailed the gaming/simulator division folks at Microsoft re: a more definitive release date for MSTS. I've also formally petitioned them for advance copies of any prototype versions to be supplied to us here at Subtalk for testing and analysis, but wouldn't bet the house on that one coming through. . .
It'll undoubtedly also be of great interest to you that a self-titled Subway Simulator is to be offered, as an optional add-on for MSTS, and the NYC option for gaming is the IRT #7 line. From the screenshots I've seen at www.hometown.aol.com/subwaysimcentral, the digitizing of the entire #7 route and its major stations came off surprisingly good, so check it out! Linked to this above site is a Japanese-produced downloadable freeware version of something called "BVE", named after a Scottish subway system, which I'll download myself as soon as I'm done with this posting to you.
Here's hopin' we hear from them soon, both MS corp as well as the designer for the simulator named Alston or something similar.
Peace, ThomasTheSubwayEngine :-)
If they sent subtalkers free prototype copies, they'd be loosing a chunk of possible customers. I got the Beta of Win 98 lost all incentive to buy the actual verson.
I could've sworn the beta copies expire in due time.
A beta for testing is the whole enchilada (unlike a trial version), and will often lessen your incentive to buy after using it for a while. You may get bored with it, start using it less and think, why pay $80 for something I already have? If I want to use it again I can just change the computer's date!
Is for getting around Win 98 Beta 3's expiration, I relpaced the io.sys with that of the full version and no longer had that problem. To do that, command.com and drvspace.bin had to be replaced as well, even though they did not contain the expiration date info.
And the beta 3 WORKED, unlike the sausage they sold. :)
I work for a software company so we get those MSDN library things every month containing betas and demos of everything and it's sad how the pre-release versions work MUCH better than the "final product" ...
I tried it but the stupid language barrier kept me from continuing use. The 7 Line is for BVE I believe.
I have the money put away in a cardboard box.
If you had it in a savings or money market account, it could collect interest.
I don't care when it comes out -- I am NOT going to buy it. Not until maybe the second release, after all the initial bugs are worked out.
I always love to see computer folks rush out to buy some new release the day it comes out, and then they're disappointed because the thing doesn't work right away, and needs a ton of tweaking to get to run properly.
No thanks, I'll just sit back, be patient, watch everyone else cry about the problems, and wait until the reworked release comes out, and by then the price will most likely have gone down too in some discount outlets.
With Microsquat though, things tend to work in reverse. The earliest versions are the ones that are the most reliable and thereafter they just keep adding more bloat, more bugs and more deadweight until the computer crumples. :)
Hehehehe, I just LOVE your explanation of what the computer does!!!
I dunno though, I have had earlier versions of MS Flight Simulator, right up to FS98-- and then just got bored with it all. Each new edition seemed to get a lot better.
And then just look at how every waited in line in wee hours of mornings for computer stores to open when Windows 95 was to be released, and look at the problems it went through. (Of course, MY idea about operating systems is.....don't ever upgrade. Just buy a whole damn new computer that is intended for the newer syste, and then it seems nothing goes kabuki!!)
Heh. THIS is what I do for a living, writing software that makes the internet safer to use in a world where Microsoft wants to control every last detail of what people do and see. Quite a different reality from my days running trains and probably less fun, but it sure beats working on the Paturkey farm.
But having seen the original stuff that Microsoft was playing with for this upcoming sim, I'm a lot more excited at the possibilities of what might become of "Mechanik II" which should also be available sometime soon. The first one wasn't a bad try at all and it worked on ANYTHING.
But if Microsoft's stuff won't run acceptably on what I *have* then I sure ain't gonna spend the money just for a train sim. Why is it that every time Microsoft does anything, we have to go buy ANOTHER computer? We get a faster, spootier machine and the next version of whatever runs pokier than what we had on the old boat anchor. Sorry Bill, the glory days of NASDAQ funny money are over. :)
I've never bought a new computer. I just upgraded as i saw fit.
So theoretically, I have the same computer that I did then, even though nothing is the same (except for my floppy drive, it's gray in a white computer, looks horribly out of place).
While I don't want another pro/con OTPO debate to start up, I would like to report on the following.
This evening, while riding the WMATA Red Line from Friendship Heights to White Flint, I noticed the operator would close the window before the train started moving. WMATA's trains are OPTO and AUTOMATIC, unlike with the CTA. While I can give the T/O in David's incident some understanding, I can not understand this. The train moves 75 feet before it enters the tunnel. The T/O has PLENTY of time to move in. On a weekday at rush hour, some stations are PACKED. You can't not be looking.
While OPTO often works in DC and I don't think the trains are capable of 2PTO, the occurance tonight is asking for trouble.
ERA & UTC member Eddie Gibbs has passed away. I post this for the benefit for those here on SubTalk who knew the man. A lot of historical transit knowledge died with this man. Eddie was a helluva nice guy. He will be missed by all those who had the pleasure of knowing him.
Condolences to his family.
I used to trade bus slides with Ed Gibbs years ago, and got some rather interesting stuff from him. I never met him, but others who have always said good things about him.
May he rest in peace.
Wake:
Monday 3/12/01
2:00 PM-5:00 PM
7:00 PM-9:00 PM
Gannon Funeral Home
152 East 28th Street between Lexington Avenue and Third Avenue
New York City
212 532 6579
Funeral Mass:
Tuesday 3/13/01
9:30 AM
Saint Joseph's Church in Greenwich Village
371 Sixth Avenue at Washington Place
New York City
212-741-1274
Burial will follow at Saint Charles Cemetery in Suffolk County NY
A planned 30 mile regional rail line in Orange County, California may never see the light of day. An article in the Los Angeles Times explains there does not seem to be enough community support to even ask for federal funds.
Tom
Living in Orange County, and being employed by the OCTA myself, I can tell you why that light rail is NOT going to "fly".
It's typical Orange County planning....run the route from point A to point B, which is really only about 18 miles, but route it here, there, and everywhere so the thing comes out to about 30 miles and will take passengers LONGER than buses presently do to get from one point to another!!
Plus, it was slated to be routed through some historical neighborhoods, zig-zagging all over the Anaheim resort area so it would hit EVERYTHING there.
Then there's folks that say it should have "hooked up to the LACMTA Blue Line". Yeah right. Take an hour travelling from Orange County to where it would hook up (Rosa Parks - 103rd St.) and from there it's STILL 40 minutes to central Los Angeles. NOBODY wants to do that, not when you can drive into LA, even in traffic, in less time. Besides, Metrolink runs rail commuter service from Orange County to LA, taking approximately 45 minutes to do so. (And the Metrolink trains are packed. WHY? Because they actually rival the autombile's commuting times and expenses!!!)
The Orange County "CenterLine" light rail plan was totally impractical.
The whole layout of the L.A. metro area makes development of rail transit lines difficult. Unlike NYC, from what I understand, Los Angeles area is more suburban, there aren't downtowns or transit hubs, but malls and superstores.
Alot of offices are in developments (Century City,etc) not on streets.
Everything was built around the extensive development of freeways, not rail lines. So those are the general differences L.A. has with other Metropolitan areas like NYC.
Houston is kinda like that I guess. When you're not nea rhte cattle country part of town, there's a few sections of large buildings that pop up in any non depressed area. Besides Downtown, other areas with clusters of downtown like development are the Galleria, Greenway Plaza area, and Westchase. We were supposed to have monorail to serve all of these places by now, but Bob Lanier made sure to get rid of that. Now we have to settle for a 7.5 mile starter light rail system. Come on guys, we're not learning to ride a bike here.
And the light rail line, from the Astrodome to downtown, is going to be a battle royale because of rail opponents who apparently think Houston doesn't have enough cars or highways already (no doubt the same people who are miffed that Loop 8 is a toll road -- "How dare they make me pay to drive my car?"). Expect a long court battle before the first rails are laid, if ever.
Too late, Rob Todd is already rallying his troops and they had scored a major victory in the courts that has just been overturned. But that won't stop him for long.
Found this on the Associated Press wire, apparently in connection with the Houston light rail dispute. It lists all the cities in the United States with light rail service and their total milage. Philadelphia ranks No. 1, and -- supringly, considering some of the recent threads -- Los Angeles ranks No. 2.
By The Associated Press
The 23 cities across the country with light rail systems and the number of miles in each system, according to the Federal Transit Administration:
Baltimore, 51.5
Boston, 77.5
Buffalo, N.Y., 14.1
Cleveland, 33
Dallas, 49.5
Denver, 10.3
Detroit, 1.2
Fort Worth, Texas, 1
Galveston, Texas, 4.9
Los Angeles, 85.8
Memphis, Tenn., 6.6
New Orleans, 13.7
Newark, N.J., 8.3
Philadelphia, 171
Pittsburgh, 46.5
Portland, Ore. 71.9
Sacramento, Calif., 34
St. Louis, 36.2
Salt Lake City, 29.8
San Diego, 48.3
San Francisco, 54.2
San Jose, Calif., 54.2
Seattle, 2.1
>>>Galveston, Texas, 4.9<<<
I'm guessing they mean the trolley lines becuase last year, I did not see one thing representing a modern light rail car.
Except that Galveston opted for diesel powered cars citing "ugly overhead wires". The cars sound like a bus, but are deck-roofed reproductions. All the benefits of urban rail transit with the noise and fumes of a bus.
I'm guessing the FTA included anything that runs on rails and has low level entry, since the only thing I can think of in Fort Worth is the Tandy Center trolley, though I supposed they didn't include the House and Senate subway lines at the U.S. Capitol. You can't get any lighter rail than that.
The 23 cities across the country with light rail systems and the number of miles in each system, according to the Federal Transit Administration: (list omitted)
Now you'd have to add Jersey City to the list.
Intersting info.
Los Angeles might even be closer to the top once the "suspended" track milage is taken away for Philadelphia. The 171 mi figure must include routes 15, 23 and 56 that have tracks and wire, but no trolley service.
>>> and -- supringly, considering some of the recent threads -- Los Angeles ranks No. 2. <<<
The figure for Los Angeles, 85.8 miles, is a figment of someone's imagination unless they have a secret light rail line somewhere that they are keeping hidden. The Green line which is on a closed ROW is about 20 miles long. The published schedules show the terminal to terminal travel time as 32 minutes. I paced a Green line train from the freeway that surrounds it, and at the longest stretch between stations, the train was traveling 62 mph. The Blue line which runs on the street at each end and has grade crossing en route is about 30 miles long. The schedule shows the terminal to terminal travel time as 55 minutes.
Tom
@ What ???? & the Green Line does not even go into the LAX Airport !!! Old Tom you have to admit they completely
BLEW IT here !!! Now the Long Beach blue line is another story !! Interesting how it uses the old PE right of ways isnt
it ?? Now the ""Pasadena blue line to the dowentown union rail station only"" & with NO connection to the Long Beach
blue line at all ( excuse me ) but as we say on the streets here................. ""aint that a bitch"" !!!! ??????
Those figures seem to be the total TRACKAGE miles -- not route miles. So it makes Los Angeles look like they've got a helluva lot more than they really do...and I suspect they added in the Red Line which I would certainly consider a heavy rail subway line.
No, the FRA counts the red line as heavy rail.
I believe those numbers are outdated. I got some figures from the MTA's website about a month ago and put them in Excel (I know; but I'm a data analyst, so when I get home Excel is the first program I start up). It is by mode, city, mileage, and stations. One caveat: I totalled by metro area, even if it involves different operators such as PATH or PATCO.
Light rail:
San Diego; 96.6; 49
Los Angeles; 82.4; 36
Philadelphia; 69.3; 64
San Francisco; 69.0; 11
Portland; 64.9; 47
Boston; 61.0; 95
Baltimore; 57.6; 32
Dallas; 40.8; 20
Sacramento; 40.7; 29
San Jose; 40.2; 34
Pittsburgh; 38.1; 13
St. Louis; 34.0; 18
Cleveland; 30.8; 34
Salt Lake; 29.6; 16
New Orleans; 16.0; 9
Buffalo; 12.4; 14
Denver; 10.6; 15
New York; 8.3; 11
Memphis; 5.8; 28
Seattle; 3.7; 9
Heavy Rail:
NYC; 550.1; 503
Chicago; 206.3; 142
San Francisco; 190.1; 39
DC; 187.7; 76
Philadelphia; 107.6; 89
Atlanta; 92.1; 36
Boston; 76.3; 53
Miami; 42.2; 21
Cleveland; 38.2; 18
Baltimore; 29.4; 14
LA; 19.6; 13
Commuter Rail:
New York; 2086.8; 380 [includes all of NJT except ACL]
Chicago; 1120; 245
LA; 766.6; 46
Boston; 710.2; 119
Philadelphia; 505.4; 189
Peoplemover:
Miami; 8.5; 21
Jacksonville; 4.3; 6
Detroit; 2.9; 13
Inclined Plane:
Chattanooga; 2.0; 2
Pittsburgh; 0.2; 2
Johnstown; 0.2; 2
Cable Car:
San Francisco; 8.8; 0
One more thing: Comparing the Consolidated Metropolitan area's population to the total miles of all modes, the most "transited" cities are: Boston, Chicago, New York, Philly, Los Angeles, San Francisco-San Jose, Washington-Baltimore, San Diego, Portland, Atlanta, Cleveland, Sacramento, Salt Lake, Pittsburgh, Miami, St. Louis, New Orleans, Buffalo, Dallas, Memphis, Chattanooga, Denver, Jacksonville, Seattle, Johnstown, Detroit.
Whew.
How is the mileage calculated? Actual linear track or route mileage? I ask because the Buffalo mileage is about double the route mileage.
The TA has (and this will surprise no one) multiple mileage numbers but I suppose that the Buffalo system number you are referring to is simply the track miles.
1) Track miles which is the total length of all tracks on a line or the entire system.
2) Route miles such as the D line from 205th St. to Stillwell Ave is 25.4 miles.
3) Revenue miles which is the distance that a train car travels while in revenue service. Non-revenue miles are not recorded.
BTW: Is the Buffalo system still free in the downtown (outdoor) segment.
Thanks for the info. Yes, the Buffalo system is still free in the downtown (outdoor) segment.
They didn't take into account Denver's new Southwest Corridor, which opened last July and is doing brisk business. That 10.6 miles represents the total track mileage of the original segment, the Central Corridor. Add to that the 17.4 miles of track on the Southwest Corridor and you have 28 miles of track, or 14 route miles.
From my brief experience in Denver I figured the lower mileage figure couldn't have been accurate. Guess it wasn't up to date.Good ride for those interested. City street running like the old trolleys of years ago and a suburban/interurban feel, nice and fast, once you're out of the city. Enjoy.
The whole layout of the L.A. metro area makes development of rail transit lines difficult. Unlike NYC, from what I understand, Los Angeles area is more suburban, there aren't downtowns or transit hubs, but malls and superstores.
Alot of offices are in developments (Century City,etc) not on streets.
Everything was built around the extensive development of freeways, not rail lines. So those are the general differences L.A. has with other Metropolitan areas like NYC.
That's true to some extent. Downtown Los Angeles is considerably smaller than what you'd expect for such a huge city. But that is not to say that it's too small for any transit; as noted elsewhere, the Metrolink commuter trains, which mainly serve Downtown, do very well. Century City, which basically is the second downtown, does have roads running through it. As far as I was able to tell, there's no rail transit in the area, although I did see traces of an old rail line just to its north.
My guess is that there is some possibility for expanded rail transit in Los Angeles. Most residential development is much higher-density than one would expect, which of course is good for transit. But given the modest size of Downtown, you're never going to have a NYC-style system.
(That's true to some extent. Downtown Los Angeles is considerably smaller than what you'd expect for such a huge city. But that is not to say that it's too small for any transit; as noted elsewhere, the
Metrolink commuter trains, which mainly serve Downtown, do very well.)
Downtown LA is something like the fifth largest Downtown in the country. Sure, New York, Chicago, DC, and even SF are larger, but with 287,000 employed in 1990, it's still pretty big. Moreover, LA is dense, but not dense enough for heavy rail. Then again, NY was only dense enough for trolleys and horsecars before the subway. LA is one place in the U.S. where the development of a subway system could call forth the development pattern to support it. Either that or LA will have to stop growing soon.
Then again, with water and quakes, it may have reached its limits anyway.
That's true to some extent. Downtown Los Angeles is considerably smaller than what you'd expect for such a huge city. But that is not to say that it's too small for any transit; as noted elsewhere, the Metrolink commuter trains, which mainly serve Downtown, do very well.
Downtown LA is something like the fifth largest Downtown in the country. Sure, New York, Chicago, DC, and even SF are larger, but with 287,000 employed in 1990, it's still pretty big. Moreover, LA is dense, but not dense enough for heavy rail. Then again, NY was only dense enough for trolleys and horsecars before the subway. LA is one place in the U.S. where the development of a subway system could call forth the development pattern to support it. Either that or LA will have to stop growing soon.
Los Angeles ranked #5? Dunno, it sure didn't look that way to me. I would have thought, based on my impressions, that Philadelphia and Boston were bigger, just to name two. But I suppose appearances can be deceiving.
Anyway, as far as density is concerned, the important point is that Los Angeles' residential density is much higher than one might imagine, even when you're looking at the whole metro area. It is employment density's that's so low. If things were the other way around, effective transit might still be possible, mainly through use of park-and-ride lots. Indeed, that describes the NY metro area pretty well. But the Los Angeles situation is a lot more difficult to address. I really don't think that rail transit can be expanded much beyond its present state.
L.A. proper actually has the same old suburb-new suburb problem New York and other suburban areas have -- the more densly concentrated single family dwellings (less square footage for the houses, smaller garages and yards) near downtown and to the south and east are lower income, while the newer areas are either to the far south (Orange County) or to the north and west. That might make the area around downtown hospitable to mass transit, but it doesn't help the outer areas and therefore can't get the votes.
Parts of L.A. in the San Fernando Valley have the same feeling about staying in the city right now that Staten Island did before Rudy was elected, so they're not going to pay for any light rail line that mainly helps people 15 miles away (though a light rail line from Sherman Oaks through the Sepulveda Tunnel would be pretty cool).
What's Monterey Park like in terms of transit? I've heard that there's a new "Chinatown" developing there, but can't imagine it being much without decent transit bus or rail service.
L.A.'s Chinatown in the city looks not even a tenth as good as NYC's.
That is not really true, but it is representative of the So. Calif. "we don't want transit view."
One example of the possibilities for transit which are not adequately addressed: LAX. The area immediately surrounding and including Los Angeles International Airport has 1) the airport itself, with its massive passenger and cargo operations; 2) aerospace and IT employers, including Hughes (I guess that's Raytheon now), TRW, Computer Sciences Corp, Rockwell International (again, a different name these days); a little further south is a refinery. El Segundo itself has, I believe, a resident population of 13,000, but that can swell 10 times during the workday.
So a mass transit line or cluster which converges on the area has a lot of potential (if politicians are open-minded enough to consider it), both for good transit and for spurring economic development. The current state of affairs includes lines which do not go where they are supposed to (the Green Line should have been fed into the airport and around the terminals), inadequate bus service (Hughes used to charter its own buses because the company couldn't get people to work), and, unfortunately, a few pols who oppose any public improvements around the airport because they consider the airport to be the enemy (and conveniently exploit the victimization of South-Central to serve their own political purposes. Never mind that 70,000 gang members engage in the destruction of these communities because jobs are scarce and there is nowhere for young people to turn).
One example of the possibilities for transit which are not adequately addressed: LAX. The area immediately surrounding and
including Los Angeles International Airport has 1) the airport itself, with its massive passenger and cargo operations; 2)aerospace and IT employers, including Hughes (I guess that's Raytheon now), TRW, Computer Sciences Corp, Rockwell International (again, a different name these days); a little further south is a refinery. El Segundo itself has, I believe, a resident population of 13,000, but that can swell 10 times during the workday.
So a mass transit line or cluster which converges on the area has a lot of potential (if politicians are open-minded enough to consider it), both for good transit and for spurring economic development. The current state of affairs includes lines which do not go where they are supposed to (the Green Line should have been fed into the airport and around the terminals)
Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the Green Line originally was planned to go into the airport, but got cut back for political and/or economic reasons. Or am I thinking of something else?
@ U "R" right the "green line" was supposed to go to LAX ( the los angeles airport ) !!
Now the BIG Q & A is what happened there ??
Why didnt the "green line" go to the airport like it was originally planned for ? nice question !
"Why didnt the "green line" go to the airport like it was originally planned for ? nice question ! "
Nice question indeed, sir. And the answer stinks.
i posted in haste so i got on word wrong !! geeeeezzzz now how about an answer to my question about the
L.A. M.T.A. " green line " not going to LAX the los angeles airport ?? & you answer is _____________________
_______________________________________________________??_____________________________,,_________________!
i posted in haste so i got one word wrong !! geeeeezzzz now how about an answer to my question about the
L.A. M.T.A. " green line " not going to LAX the los angeles airport ?? & you answer is _____________________
_______________________________________________________??_____________________________,,_________________!
I said the Green Line should have gone into and around the airport, visiting each terminal. They could still do it today, using the $3 transfer charge. But politically it won't work out.
you are making too much sense again !
no arguement there sir !
"Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the Green Line originally was planned to go into the airport, but got cut back for political and/or economic reasons. Or am I thinking of something else?"
No, I'm sure you're right (about the political reasons).
>>> Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the Green Line originally was planned to go into the airport, but got cut back for political and/or economic reasons <<<
The original grand plan called for the airport to be served by heavy rail going to the central city. The Green Line, like the "G" in New York was meant to be a cross town line bringing workers from where they lived south of central portion of Los Angeles to the aerospace manufacturing plants south of LAX. Unfortunately for the planners, just as the Green Line was completed, the aerospace manufacturing industry went into the toilet. What were once busy manufacturing plants with many blue collar jobs became vacant buildings with vast weed filled parking lots.
To keep the Green Line from being a rail line from nowhere to nowhere there has been talk of building a spur into LAX. There is now a free bus shuttle from the nearest Green Line station to LAX. Very few travelers (mainly those from Long Beach) use this route because it requires the transfer from the shuttle bus to the Green Line and a two elevator transfer to get from the Green Line to the Blue Line which goes to downtown L.A. The Blue Line approaches downtown through poor neighborhoods and industrial areas with the final terminal in the center of the business district, not the hotel district. Picture a line running from JFK to Manhattan and having its only Manhattan terminal on Wall Street, and you get an idea why this is not a satisfactory way to go to the airport.
Buses from the airport which stop directly in front of the major hotels are faster and more convenient than the rail trip.
The original plan with heavy rail going out the Wilshire corridor with a spur south to the airport would have served much of the business community.
Tom
Aerospace is a very cyclical industry, up and down several times since the 1960's. It was up with the Appollo project, down in the early 1970's, up again with the Space Shuttle, down again etc. so the Green Line's use may pick up in time (as the industry recovers).
When I lived in LA I've used the airport's transit center (MTA, Santa Monica, Culver City and other buses meet there along with the terminal shuttle bus). It's pretty good, for a bus center, but it would be nice if a rail service were offered as well. Building a Green Line spur into the terminal area would be a start of some kind, although I recognize its limitations.
Basically it's impossible to live in Los Angeles or Orange County without a car, right?
Basically it's impossible to live in Los Angeles or Orange County without a car, right?
Complicated, yes, but not impossible. There'd be limits on where you could live and work, but there is an extensive bus network in addition to some rail transit. And if we're to assume that most bus riders do not have cars, all I can say is that there certainly are a lot of carless people in the area - I saw buses everywhere, and by and large they were crowded.
How would suburban L.A. compare to Nassau county in terms of bus service. Better or worse??
>>> How would suburban L.A. compare to Nassau county in terms of bus service. <<<
John;
Get a street map of L.A. and then go to this Travel Planner Site to get an idea of how you would get around on public transportation in this area.
Tom
Wrong. I live in Los Angeles, and I do not own a car, nor do I drive. Don't forget, the MTA strike last fall affected 450,000 riders, so it's obvious that not "everyone" in this city drives a car.
Does the L.A. MTA serve just the city of Los Angeles or towns within L.A. county?
There are no towns in California. It's all cities and unincorporated areas.
And the answer is yes.
It can be done, but you have to make realistic accommodations to the situation.
The best places to live without a car are places like downtown LA (you have Metrorail, the Long Beach line, Metrolink and Amtrak, plus heavy local and express bus service from everywhere); or the Westwood area (frequent and usually reliable bus service from three agencies, Santa Monica, Culver City and MTA, going most anywhere, including UCLA, the airport, the Valley and connecting to the Red Line subway); or Nort Hollywood (Red Line terminal, express and local buses going west across the valley, to downtown LA, or East LA.
But you need to leave extra time for travel, esp. with worsening traffic jams. 15 years ago, I used two buses to get from Westwood to my job in El Segundo, and it took 45 minutes to an hour on the buses for a trip that was 20 minutes by car (in light traffic).
The best places to live without a car are places like downtown LA (you have Metrorail, the Long Beach line, Metrolink and Amtrak, plus heavy local and express bus service from everywhere); or the Westwood area (frequent and usually reliable bus service from three agencies, Santa Monica, Culver City and MTA, going most anywhere, including UCLA, the airport, the Valley and connecting to the Red Line subway); or Nort Hollywood (Red Line terminal, express and local buses going west across the valley, to downtown LA, or East LA.
Westwood probably would be a good place for the carless because it has a walkable downtown. Santa Monica and Venice are much the same in that respect, although I don't know how transit service rates in those areas.
Don't know about Venice, but Santa Monica does have pretty frequent bus service from the area along the waterfront back towards Los Angeles.
Sounds like a Metro area served by lots of LI Buses. Los Angeles (Outside of downtown) is like Nassau county in terms of transit (maybe worse!).
I'm sure Orange County and the "Inland Empire" are a "no mans land" for the car-less.
No place I'm going to anytime soon, that's for sure.
>>> The best places to live without a car are places like downtown LA <<<
This is true only if you go to bed early. Bus service after regular commuting hours is pretty slow, and there is virtually nothing open after 6:00 P.M. except a few clubs. I felt it was much more necessary to have a car when living in downtown Los Angeles than living along Wilshire Boulevard. I have done both.
Tom
I can not do it & i live in Pasadena Ca. where we can catch the once every hour & always late & slow # 267 bus # 268 which does
not go to anywhere "Xcept" some silly el montie bus 2 bus only transfer station to nowhere if you know what i mean .....
Or I could WALK 8 blocks to catch the # 485 bus that takes you to los angeles county hospital & takes forever to get downtown!!
then if you finally arrive the next day transfer to some rail station I forget how far you have to WALK etc..
By that thime 1/2 your day is totally GONE just geting to work ?? my old beat up 1982 chevrolet caprice works fine !!!!
The " transit dependant here in los angeles county california really have a hard way to go if not impossible to exhist !!!!
So what you're saying is, rather than build one efficient line while preparing the (political) ground for connecting services, we want to build one line to try to cover everything (because if we ask more a network, someone will shoot us down). Typical for So. Cal. Miami suffered that to some degree as well, which is why Miami-Dade transit's Metrorail doesn't go as far as it should (although the PeopleMover worked out nicely).
>>> run the route from point A to point B, which is really only about 18 miles, but route it here, there, and everywhere so the thing comes out to about 30 miles and will take passengers LONGER than buses presently do <<<
Thanks for the post. The Times article was the first time I had ever heard of the Center Line project.
I agree that it does not make sense to try to run a light rail line everywhere, and it is doomed to fail if it takes longer to travel than a bus to the same place. I really question where, except along the freeways, the density in Orange county warrants a rail line. Any rail line along the freeway routes would need Park N Ride lots and shuttle bus service.
Tom
.. I thought there was going to be some kind of light rail project in orange county right ?? & they have a webpage on this !!!
you have seen thie webpage complete with photos right ???
This article from the Los Angeles Times tells that the residents of Southgate, a blue collar community in Los Angeles County, best known as once (long ago) being the home of a large Firestone Tire plant and a GM assembly plant, voted overwhelmingly against a new electric generating plant in their city. This at a time when California is facing rolling blackouts because of lack of capacity to generate electricity.
Tom
No NIMBYs are not always rich. In fact, they are usually poor and under-educated. Take for example the NIMBYs in the Redhook section of Brooklyn that blocked the development of a mall and are now blocking the building of an Ikea store on a vacant 9 acre vacant lot. I suppose that with the new businesses come jobs and with jobs, you lose excuses. Besides, I guess a vacant lot, garbage dumping, rats and vermin, drug shooting etc. is far more inportant than letting those white collar bastards into their neighborhood. Did I say under-educated?
(Take for example the NIMBYs in the Redhook section of Brooklyn that blocked the development of a mall and are now blocking the building of an Ikea store on a vacant 9 acre vacant lot.)
Because the Cinema was as-of-right, the NIMBY's couldn't block it, but Forest City, a rival developer and Cinema owner, somehow could. It was Forest City's lawsuit that delayed the project long enough for business conditions to change (ie. most movie theater chains in chapter 11).
That's how NIMBYs win too, by delay. The IKEA will require a special permit. They can hold it up forever.
This at a time when California is facing rolling blackouts because of lack of capacity to generate electricity.
The power system in LA is still "state" (ie city) owned and operated and they even have excess capasity. Why should LA residents have to deal with even more powerplants (they they have actually been building them in the last 5 years) its not their problem, why should they be forced to solve it.
Los Angeles County isn't the same as Los Angeles City. This isn't Philadelphia or some other one county town/one town county.
The power is "state" run for LA county and one other county, I forget which one.
>>> The power is "state" run for LA county and one other county, I forget which one. <<<
Sorry Mike, you got your facts wrong. The State of California does not run any power plants, although there is talk of the state taking over transmission lines in return for a bailout of the private power companies. Los Angeles City (one of 72+ cities plus large unincorporated areas in the County of Los Angeles) does have its own power generating agency, and it is getting rich on paper selling power to the other utilities who do not have the funds to pay for it.
BTW, my original post, although off topic was in response to the many Sub Talkers who insist that NIMBYs opposing rail projects are rich snobby SUV drivers.
The Los Angeles City Dept. of Water and Power also owns shares of other generating facilities. If I recall correctly (and I may be wrong, so someone please correct me if I am), these include shares in Palo Verde (Ariz. nuclear unit), and San Onofre, near San Clemente, as well as several fossil units.
I know its City run, why do you think I quoted "state". The power plants are atate run as in not private.
>>> I know its City run, why do you think I quoted "state" <<<
Because I thought you meant the county's power was run by an agency of the State of California.
Alas, using words that you like, rather than those that communicate effectively (such as your L.I.A.R. abbreviation) can lead to misunderstandings. "State" is not a synonym for government. A few better choices to express the ownership would have been "public", "governmental", or "municipal". I would not be surprised if Pork comes up with a nit pick that since a city is a subdivision of a state, deriving its authority from state laws or in the case of Los Angeles, a state charter, it is improper to refer to anything run by a city as "state" run*. In any case it was incorrect to say that the L. A. Department of Water and Power provides electricity to all of Los Angeles County. It does not. It provides power only to the City of Los Angeles.
Tom
*Webster defines "state" in the political sense as follows:
1 a: a politically organized body of people usually occupying a definite territory; especially one that is sovereign b: the political organization of such a body of people c: a government or politically organized society having a particular character
2: the operations or concerns of the government of a country
3 a: one of the constituent units of a nation having a federal government b plural, capitalized: The United States of America
4: the territory of a state
Alas, using words that you like, rather than those that communicate effectively can lead to misunderstandings.
If you had bothered to read my first post I wrote: "The power system in LA is still "state" (ie city)" thus defining my usage of state.
>>> If you had bothered to read my first post I wrote: "The power system in LA is still "state" (ie city)" <<<
Uh, of course I read your first post. I responded to that post, and the part in parentheses "(ie city)" is not in it, and you mentioned Los Angeles County, not city. I read your post but not your mind.
Tom
Wow, now you're misquoting yourself.
-Hank
How, I cut and pasted.
Alot of the NIMBY's that are blocking the plant construction in NYC also aren't rich. They're just stupid and ignorant!
And we may suffer to consequences with blackouts and subway system failures.
Oh, and yes I have no problem if I live by an electric generator. I'd rather have the generator than not have my lights on. Any other answer is just primitave.
NIMBY's are stupid, ignorant, and primitive, wealth really has nothing to do with it.
Of course I have the solution. Put these NIMBY groups on a subway train, then have it get stuck under the river for a few hours in the dark with no A/C. Then leave 'em there until they change their mind. :-)
[Oh, and yes I have no problem if I live by an electric generator. ]
Are you saying that you own it? Otherwise it wouldn't mean anything, and those stupid NIMBYs know that too. California's problems are bankrupt distributors not lack of generating plants. In yor case your next door plant will not sell you any power if they could sell it for more money, to let's say Hoboken.
Arti
>>> California's problems are bankrupt distributors not lack of generating plants <<<
The two things are related. The distributors are facing bankruptcy because the shortage of generating plants has raised the price of electricity which they cannot pass on to their customers.
Prior to deregulation, the distributors generated their own electricity with the price regulated with a rate of return sufficient for them to build new power plants as they anticipated the need for them. With deregulation, the distributors sold the generating plants and agreed to purchase their electricity from those they sold the plants to and any one else selling electricity at the market price. The belief was that competition in the market would keep costs down. The utilities were pushing for the deregulation, but enough of the legislators were skeptical of the benefits that they required that retail rates not be raised as a result of the deregulation. The politicians wanted to be sure that at the next election the voters did not blame them for higher electricity costs.
The crunch came with the continued growth of consumption of electricity, but no real incentive for the suppliers to increase capacity to anticipate demand. For the unregulated suppliers, increased excess capacity means lower prices, shortages mean higher prices for a scarce commodity without higher costs of generation. It is interesting to note that in some cases the distributors and suppliers are owned by the same parent company.
Tom
"Are you saying that you own it? Otherwise it wouldn't mean anything, and those stupid NIMBYs know that too. California's problems are bankrupt distributors not lack of generating plants. In yor case your next door plant will not sell you any power if they could sell it for more money, to let's say Hoboken"
Well said. The siting of a plant is not always directly connected to where the juice will flow.
Mike and Tom
I beleive you are both on the same side, but you are both listening with yor lips (fingers)
Since the the days of the Great Communicator, deregulation has removed governmental controls from private industry ,or those that wanted to be private. Sounded good . Less government intrusion in the private mans life.
It turned out to be less protection for the individual common man by a responsible government.
Laisser faire for private industry. (Power companies,enery, airlines)
no strike laws for labor, (Taylor law) injunctions and government slave like dominance of air traffic controlers in favor of big private industry.
Today and yesterday, the little George has taken back his promise about CO2 as a pollutant?
Watch his lips. If they move, he is lying! And he wants you to believe you will benifit from his tax plan!
avid
And he wants you to believe you will benifit from his tax plan!
Not very difficult to believe something that is true.
Airline deregulation was Jimmy Carter's baby, not Reagan's. He just fired the air traffic controllers.
The Taylor Law was passed by Rockefeller and the Democraticly-controlled NYS legislature because John Lindsay couldn't control the NYC municipal unions in the 1960s and a law had to be put in to lower the threat of of strikes by workers in schools, transit, sanitation, etc. and save John V. from his own "Mr. Nice Guy" weaknesses (which is why, unfortunately, a major league a--hole usually makes a better New York City mayor than a normal person)
BTW, my original post, although off topic was in response to the many Sub Talkers who insist that NIMBYs opposing rail projects are rich snobby SUV drivers.
There was an example from New York of non-wealthy people opposing a transit project - people in the Jamaica 'hood of Queens raised a bit of a stink about Airtrain construction. Didn't stop it, fortunately.
A few other examples: back when somebody thought of, in polite terms, an aerial structure for an extension of the "subway" into Southeast Queens a community group leader stated "the black people of Southeast Queens don't want it". I'm not referring to economic status here, jus breaking a stereotype of NIMBY's.
In the early 80's the Tongue River RR was planned to run from Miles City, Montana to the mines around Decker, Montana to cut the mileage for coal trains between those points in half with a huge decrease in expenses.I'd doubt that there are 10,000 people between those 2 points involving a distance of some 100 miles but many ranchers fought it, to date it hasn't been built.
As for the California power situation there were plans once to have I believe as many as 8 huge power plants in Colstrip Montana; when I moved to the area there were only two and it took quite a bit of fighting before #3 and 4 were built. Luckily the rest haven't been built. Where was most of the power destined? To the west coast, not only California either. Some of it does in fact go there now. It was mostly business people who wanted all that construction for their own pockets. So what's the problem with having these plants in an area of sparse population? Montana is semi-arid, and the Yellowstone River which has many moods and can either flood or be not dry but quite low, is the lifeblood of much of Southeast and South Central Montana. Not only for every day necessities of homes but for farmers and ranchers. And where do the plants get the huge amounts of water they need? From the Yellowstone. And if we don't get enough winter snowpack in the mountains we get a drought. But you can rest assured big money talks and if Montana were the major generator of power for let's say [not pointing fingers] California you know where that water would be going..to generate power for the millions. The West Coast has the whole Pacific and sea water can be desalinated.
Again I'm not pointing fingers but NIMBYism comes in many forms, and where would you get more of your food from if places like Montana and Wyoming couldn't produce it? MORE imports? They even import some of our food already.I've made a long story but had to give that local illustration.
Everybody has their own axe to grind. Tom , have you run out of candles yet? Worn out that pedal power generator? Best wishes, ed.
Nobody cares until the chickens come home to roost, and it happens.
My Dad is a B/O. He runs the Q43. See ya Layta. However, does this mean when I go to the Rodeo, I will need a T/O to accompany me?
If so, this could be a problem.
I think you need to be a friend or relative of someone at that the particular NYCT shop or yard that is having the rodeo to get in.
BMTman
It is only held at Coney Island Shop. All you need is to be with someone who works with the TA no matter witch devion there from.
Robert
Are you a kid intrested in transit?
I didn't know he owned a little boy goat. But why are you asking him about it?
Well I just got home for spring break and I decided to check out my old haunts at Winslow Jct. So me dad and I piled in to my '69 Mustang and off we went. Once there we hung around SOUTH WINS interlocking waiting for a train. While waiting I investigating a nearby duck pen that was built into a trackside lake several years ago and currently houses 30-40 Mallard ducks for some reason. It was unlocked, but I didn't go in. Anyway, just before we were about to leave I noticed that the home signal had lit up for a westbound movement. The approach lit signals gave me about 4 minutes warning and I got some nice shots of the train. After this we went and found the remains of the old CNJ/Reading water tower.
Now the old car part. As we were getting ready to start the car to leave it made a little sputter then refuced to start. We popped the hood and played with the air filter assembly thinking I accidently flooded it. It was only when I got out and my Dad tried to start it that I instantly noticed that the distributor cap had a chunk out of it and was now floating loose. Well, before panicing and calling for a Tow, we refastened the cap, put the broken chunk back in and taped the whole thing up with the masking tape I keep in the car for just such an emergency. After a 5-10 minute delay the car was once again working and we drove home. We plan to buy a replacement part and fix it ourselves.
Had this been a modern car and had the ignition module thinggie failed there would have been no way for me to fix it. Last year the shift cable in our Taurus wagon broke and because of the modern, compact design of everything there was no way we could fix it and he had to get towed several hundred miles back home. There's progress for you.
Let's see. Even a mid 80's GM electronic ignition is good for, oh, I don't know, at least 150,000 miles?
My dad's Saturn (of all things), has 178,000 miles. Repairs so far? A new thermostat, and O2 sensor.
That's it.
Now, tell me that part about how old cars are better, again?
I'm sure there's lots of 60's vintage cars out there that went 150,000 miles with nothing but routine oil changes....
Let's see. Even a mid 80's GM electronic ignition is good for, oh, I don't know, at least 150,000 miles?
Our 1972 Mustang went 300,000 miles so had we had on of those things it would have failed twice with no hope of on the spot repair.
Oh wait, I get it. In today's lease everything society cars aren't suposted to last 300,000 miles. They come in a single serving wrapper and you dispose of them after two years.
How can you say it would have failed twice? Electronics don't fail at regular intervals. Dream as much as you'd like, points will never make a comeback because they *suck* compaired to electronic ignitions. Electronics give a hotter spark, a much more precise spark, more power, better emmisions, and better performance. Anyway, module failures are few and far. Compare that to having to replace the points every tuneup or so. Oh yeah, that's another great thing about electronic ignitions - they don't require a tune up every 20,000 miles.
Come on - today's cars will last at least 200,000 miles without much, if anything breaking on them. Even a shitbox like a Saturn will. In the 60's, getting a car to 200,000 miles would require you to replace just about everything on it.
Interestingly, recent (post '84) Harleys are pretty much bullit proof (though they all eventually start to leak a bit - Evos through the base gaskets and rocker boxes, Twin Cams through the primary cases), but the valve stem seals only last 20k miles or so before they dry out and need replacement. But the guides and seats and everything else is still fine - hell, my 88 inch cylinders still has cross hatching visable at 12k miles when they were pulled. So you watch when you start burrning oil, and that's what you replace.
As far as car engines, they all pretty much go 100k miles without a tune up today. This gets the auto makers a few points with the EPA. Of course, a tune up today is replace the O2 sensor and change the plug wires. That's all the goes.
I still say its better to be able to fix a problem easily/quickly then to try to prevent the problem because you can never have 100% reliability.
I like to say that once you've put 100,000 miles on an engine, it's broken in.:-) My Jeep just passed the 420,000-mile mark and is still merrily rolling along on the original, untouched, oil-tight 4-liter engine. The plugs are relatively easy to reach, and it even has a rotor and distributor cap. OK, it's on its seventh water pump and fourth alternator. Not to mention its fifth windshield (cracked, of course). The muffler is still original. It's about ready for its sixth set of tires, and the Michelin X-Ones on it now have 87,000 miles on them.
Towing a car several hundred miles is ridiculous. Get it towed to the nearest service facility (in a strange area I'd suggest the dealership, if only because you can ask the manufacturer to intercede if you have a problem).
Pre-1972 302 Fords were notorious for distributor cap failures such as you describe. I always carried a spare... as recommended by the dealer :-) Replaced it three times, I think.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Towing a car several hundred miles is ridiculous.
It was a Sunday at 5PM and my dad didn't have any extra medication to stay the night. We got the first 100 miles free, the rest cost about 400$.
Nothing is better than my '72 VW Super Beetle. Since I rebuilt it, it purrs like a kitten (despite the fact that the mileage is off the scale).
You can't kill a Bug because there's nothing to them. Fewer parts = Fewer parts to break :) And, you can tell people, "It's rear engined, just like a Porsche". Which is funny because Porsche (the guy, not the company), designed it. Actually, I don't think he designed any front engined cars. rear engines seem to be a thing the Germans were hung up on in the 30's, despite their sometimes interesting handling dynamics. At least it shows effort. American cars of the 40's, 50's and early 60's were big, overstyled, poorly built, poorly engineered pieces of crap that couldn't go, stop, turn, or last. After that, they just got to be poorly built, generic, and underpowered. Why GM can't turn out a killer 4 banger like the Japanese can, is beyond me. AFAIK, no GM engine out there approaches 100hp / liter. I do give them credit for sticking with the pushrod engine so long, though.
Why GM can't turn out a killer 4 banger like the Japanese can, is beyond me. AFAIK, no GM engine out there approaches 100hp / liter. I do give them credit for sticking with the pushrod engine so long, though.
4 cyl. engines should be banned in full size cars. If you want more power you should increase cyl. number or cyl. displacement, not rpm. Just like the devolopmet of EMD diesel engines.
60's were big, overstyled, poorly built, poorly engineered pieces of crap that couldn't go, stop, turn, or last.
Watch the 1968 movie Bullitt and you'll see at least 2 cars that prove that last statement wrong.
60's were big, overstyled, poorly built, poorly engineered pieces of crap that couldn't go, stop, turn, or last.
Watch the 1968 movie Bullitt and you'll see at least 2 cars that prove that last statement wrong.
And what does that prove? The movie's car-chase scene undoubtedly featured specially modified vehicles driven by professional stunt drivers on closed-off roadways.
you could do almost all the repairs on the older automotive vehicles YOURSELF with simple hand tools !!
I bet the older subway & pcc & older transit vehicles are like that too ! sorry but i have to shout ...
EASY TO REPAIR LESS TO GO WRONG & SIMPLE BUILT STRONG LESS HIGH TECH PARTS!!
@ he he he he he he he he he he he he!! ............
Of course we could go back to 1920"s technology with some updates and still have something you could patch together at least get it to s shop. Put it in modern bodies, but the improved metals that have developed so the engines could last 200,000 miles or so without major work as they do on modern cars, get 30 MPG in a comfortable sized car (or more). As an old timer myself there"s a lot I liked about the 50's cars lets say but have to admit that in some ways modern are more durable. And use a lot less fuel. My biggest dispute is do we have to have so much crap that you can't get to and/or fix yourself. There are many pros and cons but I think some things in recent times are just too complex. Same goes for electric railcars.
The biggest problem is that everything is so compacted and you basically need to lift the engine out to change the oil (if they "let" you change the oil). I have no problem with computerized stuff if A: The car will still run without it and B: You can easily fix it your self given the right parts or jury rig it until you can obtain such parts.
Modern cars really need to get some more space under the hood. They could call it a crumple zone. They also need to get rid of front wheel drive. Unless the engine is in the rear or you use a mid mounted transfer case, FrWD is a maintainence nightmare.
Mike, your post shows how little you understand about engineering and the cost of quality. As a project manager I've got a pretty good handle on the second part, and I understand a great deal about engineering as well, although I am not an engineer by training.
...you basically need to lift the engine out to change the oil...
Horsefeathers. Most modern vehicles, with the notorious exception of four wheel drive trucks and SUVs, have excellent access to the oil filter and drain plug. Ever try to change the oil filter on a '60s-'70s Chrysler slant 6? It's on the underside of the slant, directly above the steering knuckle. How about getting access to the drain plug on a '64 Cadillac Fleetwood? It's tucked in between the starter and the fuel pump. Oh, and the oil in that Fleetwood had better be changed every 2500 miles too. Modern cars, because they burn less fuel and burn it more cleanly, do just fine with an oil change every 5000 - 7500 miles of highway driving (3000 - 4000 in an urban environment).
I have no problem with computerized stuff if A: The car will still run without it and B: You can easily fix it your self given the right parts or jury rig it until you can obtain such parts.
I suppose you think your internet appliance should operate without the computer too? Modern computerized automobiles pollute far less, making it a lot easier for all of us to breathe, and are much LESS prone to breakdown. Your Mustang has a mechanical distributor, including a set of distributor points and a condenser, which controls a coil that in turn fires the spark plugs. This assembly requires regular maintenance - a new set of points and a new condenser, along with a new set of spark plugs, every 10,000 - 12,000 miles. It also requires constant adjustment and wears out after 60,000 - 75,000 miles, requiring a complete replacement. Contrast this with a modern vehicle, which has a distributor with ZERO moving parts - never needs replacement, unless it fails due to an electrical overload - and spark plugs that are changed every 100,000 miles or so. The failure rate is extremely low for the modern automobile, much lower than that of your Mustang.
Modern cars really need to get some more space under the hood. They could call it a crumple zone.
Energy-absorbing structures serve that purpose. Today's cars are the safest ever.
They also need to get rid of front wheel drive. Unless the engine is in the rear or you use a mid mounted transfer case, FrWD is a maintainence nightmare.
Absolutely untrue. Front wheel drive may not be perfect, but it's not a maintenance nightmare. CV joints are as easy to change as the old U-joints in a rear wheel drive car - easier in many cases - and they last a whole lot longer. Getting access to the spark plugs on the back side of a transverse-mounted engine can be tricky, but it's not nearly as difficult as the rear plugs on a '69 Firebird or Camaro... you either had to cut a hole in the inside of the fender, pull the engine, or remove the fender completely.
You really need to stop opening your mouth and inserting your foot.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My oil example was sarcasam. Of course you can change you oil (unless it voids your warrenty), but not much else. When I pop the hood of an old can it is intuitively obvious what each part is, what it does, how it works, when it is broken and how to replace it. I'm scared to open the hood of most modern cars.
Energy-absorbing structures serve that purpose. Today's cars are the safest ever.
Except on your wallet.
Contrast this with a modern vehicle, which has a distributor with ZERO moving parts
I can make moving parts in my basement workshoppe. I can't make solid state modules.
never needs replacement, unless it fails due to an electrical overload
People on this country are becomming WEAK and SOFT because they never have to do anything for themselves. A little work now and then never hurt anybody and having a country of people who can fix their own cars can't be a bad thing.
Getting access to the spark plugs on the back side of a transverse-mounted engine can be tricky,
That's what they make those long socket attachments for. One should be sold with each new car.
Furthernore, transverse mounting inherently limits the size of the engine you can drop into a car. What happened to the American tradition of dropping a monster engine into a regular car? You don't see big powerful locomotives and aircraft mounting transverse engines. As we have learned with cabs, anything transverse is bad!
Sallam, I'll disagree with one part of your post. PCC's are a pain in the neck when something goes wrong. There are two major parts of a PCC that are very maintenance intensive: The limit relay (the "heart" of the PCC control system) and the swing links in the B-2 truck, which was used on 90% of the PCC's built for US service. Our late Superintendent of Shops used to say that "Those damned PCC's will nickle and dime you to death". And he was right. Limit relays that are miss-adjusted will affect acceleration and braking. Improperly lubricated swing links (to properly lube them you have to jack the carbody off the truck to get to the links) will cause the truck bolster to lock.
ok i will take your word for it. At the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM in perris california I am told they are a mechanics dream!
( oh well ) ........ however the SAN FRANCISCO ""Key Cars"" are a different story & the parts are another one as well !!
The " KEY SYSTEM " cars might be the most heavy ever built, & I thought philadelphias Broad Street Red Cars were the
most heavy transit car ever built !! I will have to re-check my specs on this one to see who wins !!! ( thanks ) SalaamAllah
I still can't get you on the phone. Why? I would like to go to that museum with you. Why don't you call me. I'll bet you can get me easier than I can get you, although I haven't tried to buzz you for the past month. Something wrong with your phone? Anyway, it is good to hear from you back on line. Were you on vacation somewhere?
Unless you're lucky to have B-3 trucks on a PCC, the B-2's would be a maintenance headache, but as far as the limit relay is concerned, do away with the controls altogether and install chopper controls (they're more reliable anyway). Plus if I may go further, do away with the electric shaft drum brakes and install air disc brakes on the shaft.
Why go back to air? The whole point of the development of the All-electric was to eliminate the air system in the braking. The PC-1 and PC-2 compressors were a total disaster, as there was always inadequate lubrication to them. Baltimore and Los Angeles converted their PCC's to standard compressors due to the PC-1/2 problems. The B-3 truck was developed for suburban/interuban service and eliminated the swing links with a spring and rubber snubber on the truck bolster.
Most city systems with B-2's just lived with them, sometimes not too well. I've seen swing links witht the bearing surfaces worn to less than eggshell thickness due to inadequate lubribation.
Very interesting point on standard PCC control and B-2 trucks: In New Orleans, when Elmer Von Dulan and the shops at Carrolton built the first two cars for Riverfront using the controls and trucks salvaged from the PCC's they bought from SEPTA, they discovered that the operating cost were higher than the 1923 Perley Thomas cars - with PCC technology! They bought B-3 trucks and solid state PCC control equipment from Tatra for the next three new cars.
Maybe my reasoning of going back to air was not because of air brakes per se, but to use disc brakes (which have better stopping power than either tread or drum brakes). As far as the air compressor is concerned, why go back to the PC-1 or PC-2 when there are modern compressors out there.
Remember that All-electrics have dynamic braking down to 4 mph before the shaft brakes come on. Air cars dynamic to 8 mph, except for a few experimentals built in 1944. Disc brakes would be an unecessary addition. Shaft brakes on all-electrics are spring applied and electric release.
As to the air compressor problem, AFAIK only Baltimore and LA ever mass converted their air cars to standard compressors. Air is dead as far as PCC technology is concerned.
While on my quick trip to NYC this past weekend I picked up the new Amtrak schedules. The "booklet" version dated March 5, 2001 correctly shows the new Acela Express trips. But the paper "card" version has a misprint -- it shows #2170 departing for Boston from NEWARK at 6:00pm instead of New York. Here's the (correct) version from the Web site.
Traveled through Qns Blvd from head to toe today for something to do, the F is going through 63rd, QB exp, and to 179th. The R is going through 60th, QB lcl, to Jamaica Center, and no E is running. What's wrong: at Roosevelt Ave, two F exp's passed by in both directions before an R came in either direction. The R is not the line for Jamaica Center. They don't deserve a local. As long as its temporary. I forgot to check out if the R was skipping 75th Ave and Van Wyck Blvd for if the F was or if any were. I wasn't observing, as I was looking forward to the 5-stop exp ride from 71 Ave to Roosevelt. But I don't remember skipping those two at all. All I know is the local stations on QB cannot live with just the R. The F should've ran local with it, so as to provide direct access from local stops to 63rd St. The R was running so infrequently as well as irregularly, and on the most busiest local stop, Woodhaven Blvd, the crowd was considerably large. I would think that with no E, the R would be able to take some of its trains, but apparently, it didn't take too much, probably just enough to make 3-4 extra trains for the extension to Jamaica Center. I saw R-32s a couple of times on the R. All I can say is, one local isn't enough. At night hours without construction, both the E AND the F run local. Why didn't they run two local in this case? I also remember a few people after leaving Queensbridge with the F heading for QB complaining about not being able to get to their pre-Roosevelt local stops. QB needs 2 locals at all times.
When I rode the F from Roosevelt to 63rd it ran local. It came in the same time as an R on the local, and we went first.
I feel bad for E riders having to contend with the (R)arely this weekend, that's for sure.
Construction on the southbound express, so the Fs from Roosevelt to Queensbridge went local, but it won't be like that when the tunnel goes into full service. Never be any service direct from 36 St-65 St to Queensbridge, but meanwhile two locals will take you to Queens Plaza.
Try waiting fore rarely when it is the only line operating through the connector (no F, for instance). If you need the "D" to go uptown, you must go all the way down to 34 St. and tranfer there.
One of the most interesting findings on my recent trip to Asia was the discovery of a transfer table for the monorails at Sentosa Island, Singapore. Due to an error on my part, I did not forward this image to Dave for the initial posting. Here it is. The caption (located on the Sentosa page) is: (sentosa09.jpg). The Sentosa Island resort monorail car barn. Note that the rail on the left loops up to meet the main line at the top of the image. At the bottom of the image, the rail joins a transfer table to switch trains to various tracks in the barn. There's even a train wash!. 2/2001. Photo by Todd Glickman. (97k)
Does anyone know if the Disneyland/Disneyworld monorails use a transfer table to get their trains to/from storage and maintenance?
Disneyland and Walt Disney World both use switches, no transfer tables.
Not sure about the monorail barn at WDW, but at Disneyland, it is a four-beam arrangement and all four trains are stored inside during non-operation hours. At ground level, the same building also accomodates four tracks for the steam trains.
Disneyland has four monorail trainsets, each five cars (lead car, three mid-train cars, and a tail car). They are single ended operationally, though the past couple years they have been doing bi-directional operations due to construction of Disney California Adventure in what used to be the parking lot for Disneyland. Backup moves were made at normal speeds; train operators were in the one and only cab on the trainsets and watched where they were going on closed-circuit video monitors!!! (It's my understanding all the monorail trainsets in WDW are set up with a cab at both ends.)
Until just a few years ago, Disneyland had five steam trainsets and four steam locomotives. The oldest trainset (the old coach type) was traded for a fifth locomotive. Long story, but the fifth locomotive wound up at WDW instead. And two years ago, they actually found a fifth loco for Disneyland, but it has yet to see service.
Fry, Bender and Leela Went to the ruins of old New York to find Fry's seven leaf clover.
They took the subway (from W 71 Street, so the route makes sense). Bender put his wheels on the tracks, made an announcement: "This is the Brooklyn-bound B local to wherever the hell I feel like. Stand clear of the doors, bing-bong"
They rode to Newkirk Avenue - Brooklyn (I guess it makes sense, since it's wherever the hell Bender feels like). By that time a homeless man was sleeping on top of Bender.
I saw that show too. I think that part was FUNNY!! Saying that. Means where there are was at the 72 ST station on CPW. Bender says. "Let's take the B Train". I thaut that Bender was going to say this. "Let's take the A Train". FUNNY!! FUNNY!! FUNNY!!
Dominick Bermudez.
But the unanswered question from the year 3000 was: Have they finished the Second Ave. subway yet?
"But the unanswered question from the year 3000 was: Have they finished the Second Ave. subway yet? "
FINISHED ?? Heck, they're still studying and debating between a full lenght or short subway !!
Bill "Newkirk"
No, they don't use subways anymore in 3000, that's why it's abandoned.
But they're still studying building the Second Avenue Pneumatic Tube.
Did anyone catch Futurama a few weeks back? Their spaceship submerged in the La Brea tar pits, Lela detected "a hollow tube devoid of life" then concluded it had to be the Los Angeles subway.
Mark
Yeah, I saw that, pretty funny. It was also mentioned here by someone.
Peace,
ANDEE
Bill- did you see the show? They went to Newkirk Avenue. In the show it was a two track station but of course on the D it is four tracks. Yes- bender did say the B train--no Newkirk on the B.
"Bill- did you see the show? They went to Newkirk Avenue"
No subwaybuff, didn't catch it. Hope to do so if reruns are in the offing.
I wonder why they chose Newkirk Ave when doing the show ? They could have chosen any station on the Sea Beach then #4SeaBeachFred would be in his glory!
Bill "Newkirk"
That's because the train was the B train running local to wherever the hell Bender felt like! It could have been Pelham Bay Park in the Bronx for all it matters.
Episode 1 gave a glimpse of some of the possibilities of the pneumatic tube system.
You state your destination to the voice recognition before you start, and then apparently all the switching is done automatically.
Someone went to the "Radio City Mutant Hall" ("JFK Jr. Memorial Airport" originally). Fry asked for the "Cross-Town Express" and his route went through the Statue of Liberty. I guess that means NYC has eaten all of Hudson County by 3000--or is that just poetic license?
Also, the pneumatic tube was completely free.
I've got a 450 meg processor, 256MB of RAM, an S3 Savage 4 video card with 32MB of video RAM. I've got a pretty decent Yamaha sound card. It's directX compatible. If I have to upgrade the sound and video, I will. But, I think it should run OK.
You don't have a 450 meg processor, nobody calls MHz a meg.
And I'm a computer tech. The horror!!!! I meant mhz. :)
My monitor can display up to 256 colors @ 1024*768. MSFS 98 runs OK, I'm sure MSTS will be likewise.
Ewww.
Are you sure your monitor doesn't at least support 16-bit color?
Nope. The highest it can go is 256. It's the original monitor that I've had since 1995. It is a generic computer that originally came with a 1/2 Gig hard drive, 4MB of RAM, Windows 3.1, and a 386/33MHz processor.
The only original pieces of equipment on my computer are the monitor and a 101-key keyboard. My newest pieces are a 40 gig HD and a wheel mouse.
All right, I know about the whole 12 car Fs that were done back in the day, but since Fs are the Queens Blvd express I didn't think local stops between 71/Continental and the Plaza were supposed to be long enough to accommodate them. But, if you look at the very ends of 63rd drive and 67th ave stations, you notice several things:
1. Tunnel lighting is arranged in identical manner to that of station platform lighting (in ceiling, alterntating sides).
2. The catwalk is also wider for a bit, and when it narrows there is a yellow vertical pole where a 'do not enter or cross tracks' sign could have gone.
3. An 8 car train of R-46s barely fits in these stations, while there's extra room at others.
But, there are several things against this:
1. There is no doorway (therefore extra space did not become a room).
2. The color tile band on the end is the same color as the rest of the station tile band. The MTA is not very good at doing that.
All right, I know about the whole 12 car Fs that were done back in the day,
They ran 11-car 660 foot long trains back in the late 1950's.
With two conductors per train, IIRC. Next time you're watching The Wrong Man with Henry Fonda, pay particular attention when he steps off the train at what appears to be Roosevelt Ave. You'll see the conductor between the first and second cars. The other conductor was at the other end of the train at the same relative location.
Years back, the very late 60's , I spoke with Don Harold.
The particular stations were built to only 600ft lengths with an original design for 660 ft.
At that time , in an effort to speed construction, the design was changed from 660 to 600 ft. The light fixtures and most iron work was kept the same for possible extension at a later date. Woodhaven was kept to the 660 length because it was a possible candidate for conversion to an express stop and in the wildest stretch of the imagination , the present express tracks would decend to a lower level with side platforms beneath the current platforms and then divert south to the White Pot Fly Under.
But we all know what happened.
The shortened stations saved time and money for a system being pressed for service. Some stations had the iron work incased in concret, prior to receiving tiles. Some did get there tiles.
I prefer the look without concret or tiles.
avid
Okay, so then how did they run 660ft. E trains? Did they leave one car hanging back in the tunnel a la South Ferry? And why don't they do this anymore (if there's a reason other than lack of cars)?
Dan
The express stations handled 11 cars train without a problem as far as Euclid and Church Avenues. With the R1-16 gone, 660 foot long trains are impossible today. They could have run 9 car R68's (675 feet) with one set of doors locked.
Okay, but didn't the E also service the Queens Boulevard line with 600ft. platforms?
Dan
Yes and a pick of the litter could provide a number of R/32,38,40,40M and 42s for Divorce Court. They could be modified to bring about SINGLES (with one cab) and then the Famous ELEVEN CAR "E" would soar to new and untold heights of magestic commutation! Some R/42s could get really kinky and get modified for traveling with R/46s or R/68s.
Its not a question of CAN it be done. Its a question of for HOW MUCH and is the added capacity needed.
The parts and know how are there. Is the WILL and Want there, as well?
avid
The short stations or rather the 600ft stations are :
67th Avenue
63rd Drive
Grand Avenue Newtown
Elmhurst Avenue.
If one were to go to the western most end of the platform and look at the ceiling and walls , one would see the old lighting fixtures and the differences in construction for about 50 to 60 ft.
The "E" trains bypassed these stations, they were EXPRESS trains on the express tracks.
I bet the bugs that need working out in the R-142X's are in the automatic train announcement. Why in the hell did they even put that in? They could have spent less putting a state of the art intercomm system in, and let conductors announce the old fasion way. One must wonder if R-142X conductors are going to have their salaries cut now that they have less work to do.
Also, why didn't they just put the old-style controllers in? It would have saved time and money on retraining moterpersons. Is "moterpersons" a word? Motermen is no longer PC.
[Motermen is no longer PC]
That's the way things are nowadays. This PC crap has even affected candy. I refuse to call "plain M&M's" as "milk chocolate." "Plain" is easier to say, it's more descriptive (nothing else inside the shell, unlike Peanut, Almond, and Peanut Butter), and I just grew up eating plain M&M's. What next?
How about this? A customer sevice rep is not a Customer Relations Coordinator. I'm fat. No, sorry. I take up up an unusually large area of the space, time continuem. I don't have a sight problem. My ocular organs don't reflect the light given off by matter correctly.
I'm not short, I'm verticaly challenged
I'm not short, I'm verticaly challenged
No, you were just all wet when someone stuck you in the dryer on high :o) Wish that would work with my younger son... Jr. is 6' 2" and still growing... I keep telling him to shrink but he pays as much attention to that as he does to anything else :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Milk Chocolate M&Ms is not a PC thing. It's a PR thing (sort of) Milk chocolate M&Ms sounds less blah.
Of course, people can call them whatever the hell they want, regardless of what the company says.
They are not called Motormen anymore. They are Train Operators.
Selkirk requested pictures of the panelboards in R9 cabs.
Here are two pictures from 1689 at Branford.
The #1 end:
The #2 end
Click on or otherwise select the above two images for full-res
versions if you want to be able to read the switch labels.
Bless you! THANK YOU! Yep, that's the real deal ... that's exactly what I as looking for ... words cannot express my extreme appreciation for that!
Hey, Jeff. Aren't you going to give Selkirk a railfan window shot?!
And what about a shot of the controls (at least they won't be BMT-style a la Heypaul's cab ;-)
BMTman
Fingers ... twitching ... need ... air ... about 80/90 pounds oughta do it ... need more voltage ... wrench here ... click ... butt plug inserted ... pressure ... fans, lights, compressors, route signs, fans ... move handle to release, click click click ... shit! Popped the substation. Got batteries? :)
LOL!!
I guess you can tell I really liked those cars. Heh. There were two things I was trying to remember, the door control cut-ins and I remember having to walk the car to the compressor switch and my memory was confirmed ...
Whoever laid it up followed procedure though, they was all off. :)
Except for the battery switch, which I needed so the cab
light would come on and I could see what I was doing to take
the picture for you!
Oh yeah ... just went and looked at it again. Well then, so much for your proper operating procedure. You're off for a 10 day vacation. That'll learn you about your fifth amendment rights in the cab. And we've got PICTURES TO PROVE IT, Buster. Heh.
Still, THANKS for that! I'm sure you dropped the breaker when you were done though, ain't nothing that bites more than dead batteries, especially when they ain't handy to get at. :)
I recognized a few things pointed out to me by Eddie Sarkauskas all those years ago: the sign chageover key switch and the side destination switch, among others. He told me the fuses for the side signs were removed along with the light bulbs when the R-7As and R-9s went over to the Eastern Division. That door cutout switch is not the same as a drum switch, right?
The side signs work.
The drum switch is below the motorman's side window, just as
on old-school SMEE cars. The DOOR CONTROL switch is the equivalent
of the modern DC1/DC3 circuit breaker: it supplies the power for
the guard light and door operator relays.
Thanks. I knew about the side signs; in fact, I saw them illuminated back in 1980. Eddie went so far as to say he had them all hooked up and light bulbs installed. I even watched as he moved his key back and forth in the sign change switch and saw the side signs alternately light up.
I would dearly love to see 1689 signed up as a D at dusk with the side signs showing "Coney Island" backlit. It would bring back memories of that D train we raced along CPW in May of 1967, its backlit side signs proclaiming Coney Island.
Deal! As long as the other side says "205th" ... after all, I gots to get my yayas too. But true to form, shouldn't the southbound say "Brighton Beach" for the highest thru-speed? :)
The R-1/9s didn't have Brighton Beach signs. Not originally, anyway.
I think I finally figured out where that oddball rollsign I have came from. The one with the northern Southern Division terminals spliced to a newer Eastern Division curtain used on the R-7/9s. It must have been printed for those R-1s which helped out on the BMT in the late 40s and early 50s and somehow survived.
There's just something about seeing a backlit "Coney Island" side sign, whether in white on an R-1/9 or green on an R-32.
I'd hold onto it for sure ... but yeah, when I was there Brighton Beach was on them, though I do recall winding through some in the middle cars that didn't have Brighton though they did have Coney and Kings Highway.
The R-7/9s which went over to the Eastern Division got new roller curtains, and these did indeed have Brighton Beach on them. The QJ had oldtimers assigned to it along with newer equipment.
Still, given my 'druthers, it ain't a D train unless it's signed for Brighton. :)
Don't blame me, I didn't leave the battery on (this time)!!!
Doug?
Me thinks I saw Thurston hanging around the R-9 at some point yesterday....
BMTman
Now, now ... you know I'm not "qualified" to do that YET.
Mr t__:^)
Heh. Whoever laid her up followed procedure there ... ALL the breakers were down as they should have been. I'm sure the crank was also wound up properly too outside the storm door.
One of the first things you have to do when you board one of these big guys is make sure someone wasn't playing with the switches, handles, etc.
Mr t__:^)
The year 1971 witnessed a lot of sabotage in addition to the general condition of the equipment. You betcha one checks everything before waking up a sweetie ... you also make sure the brakepipe ain't ben stolen and that the batteries are still there. Heh.
Just wanna thank you all again for the car shots at bera for my amusement. You guys really didn't have to go to all that trouble just pour moi ... but I love it just the same! :)
Hoping that the damnable software wars of the browsers and the attacks of the kids who write computer trojan horses can take a breather long enough for me to earn some throttle time again after 30 years away from a mighty R1/9 ... you guys got a 9 or a 4?
Shoreline's 1689 is an R-9. Seashore has R-4 800 and R-7 (or is it R-7A?) 1440. I'm sure both museums would welcome you with open arms.
And at some point, if we can just get Shrub to stop trashing the economy, I hope to do so. The wife and I have a software company and unfortunately, all we can afford is ourselves - we're in the "internet privacy and security" business (OT here) and remarkably for all the clammor about it, it just doesn't do enough money for us to be able to afford to hire anybody so we can take a day off. We're privately held so we're not going to take that big NASDAQ dump, but there ain't a minute to spare where I can get away from here.
But when I do, it'll be a beeline for bera first since Kennebunkport is REALLY hell and gone ... just to give you an idea, Kingston's real close and I've never been there. Now their "R9" *really* needs some attention, and I can't even get there ... hopefully this will change and soon ... just so's you know why you haven't seen me grovelling down your way yet. :)
[Kingston's real close and I've never been there.]
I'm sure those guys would love to have you stop by also (a few of them regularly post here). They are putting a lot of time in on their R-16. You can try their site from the comfort of that chair you're sitting in right now.
Mr t__:^)
I have managed to get all over TMNY's site ... amazingly when I lived down in New Paltz some 20 years ago, never knew they were there. But yes, plenty of visits I need to do though Branford's kinda worked a bit harder to attract that first "showing of da face" ... :)
Maybe they'll grant you an exemption at Shoreline and let you take 1689 down the mainline.:-)
I'd definitely need to ride the line a few times since back in the days when those were live rides, they were meant to run in the "go" and "stop mode" and did ... wrapped and unwrapped was it. From what I unbderstand, from the layout of the line, two points is it and you're kinda pushing your luck at that, as much as I'd love to have it honking up a storm as it passes through the neighborhood on the other end of the track tails ... heh.
Something tells me they'd have to pry you out of the cab with a crowbar once you took your place at the controls. I'll bet it would be like riding a bicycle.:-)
Heh. I'd even be willing to walk the car and change ends. (grin) And it'd be a hell of a shorter walk than I was used to. What you guys REALLY need to worry about is me wanting to take it home with me. I've got 6 miles of abandoned track out here. Heh.
See if they'll loan you R-9 1802 from Albany.:-) Not sure if it runs, though.
Been there ... the lights are powered by AC fer krimminy's sake. Parallel 110 to ordinary bulbs. I don't think tossing the switches in the cab is an option ... I'd shudder to think of the loud buzzing noises from below. And no, those kids don't have a sense of humor though they did paint it up nice. It's also upstairs, so it's kinda hard to stuff it in an elevator and abscond with it.
Lemme see ... 50 car batteries in series oughta do it for a few feet.
The other day I was watching The Lost World again, and wanted some info on the opening scene where Jeff Goldblum is on the NYC Subway. It looks legit. He was on a R-44/46/68. I would assume it was filmed in NY, and the train looked like it was actually moving. I'm wondering if the studio actually leased a train to run through the system late at night. I doubt Jeff would get filmed on a train in passenger service. Then again, with Hollywood, maybe it WASN'T NY.
Still, it's nice to see a NY subway scene in one of the best movie series I've scene. I'm looking foward to JP3, even though I heard Goldblum won't be in it.
However, as far as subways in the movies goes, The Taking of Pelham 123 will always rule. Mr Blue: "I'm taking your train." Moterman: "YOU'RE TAKING MY TRAIN????????", always puts a smile on my face. And, if you don't know what I'm talking about, SEE THE MOVIE! Better yet, read the book if you can get it.
[He was on a R-44/46/68.]
R44/46. Notice the bright yellow part of the cars. the LCD signs on R44 and R46 cars. Somehow, they've been dimmed down.
"The Lost World" used 1 4-car R-46 link. The scene was shot at Church Avenue on the 'F' line on a Sunday. The cars involved, took roughly a week to prepare for that short scene and yes, the movie company pays for the train and special preparation. I believe that the side signs were turned off for the filming...
I just heard on the news that a poll showed that if Bill Clinton ran for mayor he would win the Primary w/ 40% of the vote and then defeat the Republican 3 to 1. I think he should go for it!
That's disgusting.
Even more disgusting? Mark Green came in second.
This is a greater sign of the sheeplike attitudes of New Yorkers than the election of Hillary Clinton.
sea beach fred would love that
No I wouldn't.
Actually, heypaul has thrown his hat into the ring and have on good authority the knowledge that a recent gallop poll indicated that a vast majority of New York's mental patients will be voting for him.
BMTman
Fearing a further decline of New York City into godless liberalism, our very own beloved Sea Beach Fred has decided to run for Mayor on the Republican ticket. Even many liberals are attracted to his history of being a uniter, not a divider on Subtalk along with his sense of standing up for free speech even for those who disagree with him. BTW this post is humorous but the tribute is real and from the heart. SBF even makes Bu$h somewhat bearable for this liberal.
John: If I keep getting kudos like that I'm going to become one big blob of jelly, a real softie. Thanks a lot. It is appreciated. But I can just hear Doug and Stef denouncing me as an out of town carpetbagger, and I probably wouldn't get to first base. Seriously, though, some of you may know that next to the Presidency it is believed that the Mayor's job in New York City is the toughest one in the country. You guys need someone to get the job done. I pulled Charlie Rangel's name for your approval on a previous post. I really think he might be the genuine article to unite the city. Though a liberal, I have always liked and been impressed with him. What do you guys think about that?
Not bad -- but Rangel's getting a little 'long-in-the-tooth' for the job if you asked me.
BMTman
Fred's first act would be to sign an executive order restoring N service to the Broadway express tracks.:-)
The very very very first act. That's a certainty. And it would go over the Manny B, too. My second act would be to give the whole system a numbered one, and get rid of those letters. Thirdly, I would promote Train Dude to run the MTA, and put Stef in charge of the BronxIRT. BMT Doug would be my Chief of Staff, and my pal Brighton Beach Bob would be my Deputy Mayor. To round off my staff, BMT Jeff would be in charge of Quality Control, the man who would see to it that all decisions regarding the future of the system was in top hands by someone who knew what the hell he was doing. Good God, I had better stop. I'm sounding like the damn politician. Yikes!!!!
One way to get the N on the Manny B right now is to put in down 6th Ave. Sure it has no business there, and won't be able to serve Astoria (So run alternate 7's as "8" trains to Astoria and hope all passengers are good at jumping!) but it will be reunited wit its long lost sister the Q train.
:-) Andrew
I never could understand why the Sea Beach had its northern terminal moved from 57th Street to Ditmars Blvd. Yes, an "8" train could be used as a shuttle between QP and Ditmars, or even extended to 5th Avenue. As for 6th Avenue, that would be difficult to have the Sea Beach diverted there, but I'm at that desperate state and anything that could get my train over that bridge would be looked u pon favorably by me.
The only reason that the train terminated at 57th Street to begin with is that the Broadway line was too crowded and had too many dangly bits at the north end (lines without branches), meanwhile 6th Avenue was underused, had effectively only two tracks and dangling bits at the south end.
With the Chrystie Street connection, the dangling bits were reduced.
Had the Second Avenue Subway been built, there would be NO dangling bits.
You forgot Hey Paul as your Speech Writer or Press Sec.
Pardon me for the oversight. heypaul, are you listening? You will be my press secretary and my main man with the City Council and the Board of Estimate. You will also have to break me in to all the changes that have been made of which I know little about. What a team, Stef, Brighton Beach Bob, Train Dude, BMT Doug and Jeff, heypaul and me. New York, get ready and get out of our way because here we come.
Here we come, walkin' down the street - nah, that wouldn't be right.
Hey, Fred, I'll bet you'd have a zillion "4-Sea Beach" posters from an R-11 route curtain printed up for your campaign.:-) Not to mention T shirts, key rings, etc.
And on that R-11 #4 Sea Beach Poster, there would be me in front of the car proudly displaying by Sea Beach shirt. Wow! What a campaign poster. The city would be really rocking. I'd better start watching myself because I'm beginning to believe all this hype. But I have to admit it is fun.
iF YOU WIN, YOU WILL HAVE TO BE GOOD FRIENDS WITH HILLIARY AND MOVE BACK FROM ARCADIA TO THE SOUTH BRONX
He may be good friends with Hilliary but Hillary -- NEVER
If it were me I'd as soon live in the South Bronx as be near Hillary!Some private homes were built not far from the Simpson/Westchester Ave station, been by them on the bus (#11), Unfortunately they have bars on the windows so there are still concerns. As long as the house had a big basement for model trains, you'd be able to visit and see High V and Low V among other running in the Bronx again. Big ed for mayor? In four years I'll be 62 and ready for pension. Today is dreamer day!
Well Fred, I can't agree with this act. Matter-o-fact, I strongly disagree.
MAKING THE WHOLE SYSTEM NUMBERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't let you do that. What about that world famous A train? No, nobody wants to take the 17 to Harlem. Any numbers above 9 are stupid for rapid transit operations. Imagine that: this is the 21 train to 168st. Next stop will be Jay St. Step in, stand clear. How about that hated debate, should the 16 be terminated at court sq., or should it run on QPlaza? Even worse, that #5 culver express. Yuk. B division as letters makes more betta sense. For us who speak like we thugz, lettuhaz iz bettuh. they got one sillabull.
No numbers. They're bad!
And it's not just your colorful reasons.
There is LOGIC behind keeping the letters.
I agree. Keep the A train. It's too firmly entrenched. Duke Ellington would never stand for it being called anything else.
[Thirdly, I would promote Train Dude to run the MTA, and put Stef in charge of the BronxIRT. BMT Doug would be my Chief of Staff, and my pal Brighton Beach Bob would be my Deputy Mayor.]
Thanks for that coveted position in your administration, SBF. My position would of course require a salary in the HIGH six figures. It might mean doing something unpopular like raising taxes to afford me... :-)
BMTman
Now all he's gotta do is suck up to five supreme court justices and he's in, regardless of the outcome of the election. Whoop! I promised myself I wouldn't say things like that again. It's all YOUR fault, BMTman ... heh. But ya gotta admit, winning an election 5-4 beats all hell out of having to stuff thousands of ballot boxes. :)
Right on, man! our current "president" was SELected and not elected!
. . .And selecting him was a partisan GOP-dominated US Supreme Court, the dude's own BROTHER ("its a family affair"), and his brother's subordinate GOP hack lackey dog catherine harris. OOOPS!!! Did I really say all of this?! The SubTalk p.c. non-political version would be: "Yes, it was good, honest, close election where the slightly better of two very good men form two good parties competed. . " or thereabouts. -Peace, Thomas:-)
I'm done, no comment ... this ain't alt.politics so I'll just bite my tongue. :)
If GWB doesn't get the job done in his four years, he will be sent packing. But give the guy the benefit of the doubt and let him do his job. I believe many of you will be pleasantly surprised. Now for another topic. Are you guys really serious about Mayor Clinton?
[It's all YOUR fault, BMTman...]
Yeah, cause I'm a BLLLAAABBBER MOUTH!!!!
(with apologies to Ralph Kramden)
BMTman
Bang zoom!! Hamana-hamana-hamana-hamana.
Fearing a further decline of New York City into godless liberalism, our very own beloved Sea Beach Fred has decided to run for Mayor on the Republican ticket. Even many liberals are attracted to his history of being a uniter, not a divider on Subtalk along with his sense of standing up for free speech even for those who disagree with him. BTW this post is humorous but the tribute is real and from the heart. SBF even makes Bu$h somewhat bearable for this liberal.
He's got my vote for sure, just as soon as I can get finished tying these damn institutional bedsheets together. . .-Pecae/GB, Thomas
That's the spirit, a true comrade...;-)
BMTman
heypaul I could go for. But where has heypaul been lately? He is keeping a very low profile around here. I miss his strange, yet entertaining posts. Bring him out of hibernation if you can.
thank you for your support fred...
if elected, i promise to make things right with railfans... the current mayor has closed the historic city hall station... railfans historically have made great contributions to the city of new york... my first act as mayor of this great city will be to reopen the city hall station and allow all railfans to view it after making a $100 contribution to the "heypaul legal defense fund" which will help defray my legal fees as a result of investigations brought by any special prosecutors...
my second action will help bring peace to our embattled railfan community... i intend to solve the problem of the r142's and the grafitti artists with one bold move... the entire fleet of 142's and 142a's will be scrapped and sent to the bottom of the ocean floor... grafitti artists will be given the opportunity to adorn the cars with whatever strikes their fancy, before the cars are sent to the ocean's depths... after they have finished their masterpieces, they will have to promise to end their careers in the subways and buses... if they fail to keep their promise, they will join their specially adorned car
off sandy hook...
Your campaign promises sound reseasonable enough...
He left out the part about the huge message board across the front of City Hall whose messages would scroll at R-10 speed back and forth.:-)
heypaul: I'm willing to throw my support your way, but I was a little disappointed that in your promises no mention was made of putting my train back on the Manny B. Hey buddy, if you want a contribution from me you have got to promise me that. If you do, I'll up the ante to $200.00. Does that get your attention?
fred... i've consulted my chart on pay-offs... for $200 i will be happy to arrange a triplex fan trip, with the cars signed for the sea beach, which will go over the manhattan bridge... if you are interested in regular full time bridge service for the sea beach, please e-mail me, as the amount of money required to swing that is not for discussion on a public message board... everything is possible, as long as you remember everything has a price...
What about getting a set of D-Types to run over the Franklin Avenue Shuttle...and utilizing the Malbone curve on the trip into Prospect Park? ;-)
...I assume there is a price for everything???
The all-steel Triplexes would hold up a lot better than wooden el cars on that curve. They would also take out a wall or I-beam or two.
heypaul: The check is in the mail. Anything else needed? Buzz me.
Too bad he's dead. He would have made a GREAT major.
Beasts of England, Beast of Ireland
and so on and so forth.
Boy you said it. Do New Yorkers have such a short supply of pride and honor that they would repeat the mistake it made in November. Is New York so devoid of talent that you would choose a no good piece of white trash for mayor. Come on now. You know who might be a good choice and don't laugh because I'm a Republican. I think Democratic Congressman Charlie Rangel might be just the man for the job. He and I disagree on a number of subjects, but we do agree on some. More importantly, he is a decent man and an honest man. He could do much for New York. I think he would be a hell of a lot better choice than Clinton II. Thin about it.
I really don't think it's safe to post about politics on here anymore.
The Daily News story today follows a similar poll from earlier in the week.
I doubt he would do it for the reasons I posted before: The mayor of New York has only limited control over the ability to raise money (city income and property taxes) and must consistantly go begging to Albany and Washington for money. While I have no doubt Clinton could spin the public relations against Pataki and possibly get him defeated for re-election, I think he would chafe at the idea of having to go hat in hand to his former underling Andrew Cuomo for three years (or Carl McCall) begging for more money for three years.
Also, because New York is so heavily Democratic, battles over union contracts, city hospital operations, zoning for commercial development, rent control, etc. usually pit Democrats against Democrats, which is only broken up about once a generation when a Republican mayor is elected. I suppose any problems that crop up in 2002 could be blamed on Rudy and George with validity (standard politics -- Bush has been blaming Clinton for the current economic downturn since December) but again, if Pataki were to lose in 2002 there just aren't enough other Republicans lurking around in the city to pin blame on in the out years, unless he can turn Guy Molinari into Newt Gingrich. Having to choose between Democrats and Democrats in local disputes during 2003 or 2004 also wouldn't be good for Hillary's presidental hopes.
In short, too much political downside, not enough upside and his $$$ earning potential from lecture fees and possible spots on corporate boards once the pardon furor dies down would be dissapated. Of course, if he's been watching the current season of "Spin City" and seeing how much sex that new guy Charlie Sheen has been getting inside City Hall, he might just change his mind :-)
I think he should, too, but maybe a run at Governor would be better, esp. since he was already Governor somewhere else.-Peace, Thomas :)
P.S. Hillary in 2004!!!
Ok, Hilary is currently serving as NY state senate since Nov 2000. If Bill won the election for the mayor of NY. I guess the state of NY will be referred as the state of Clinton.
Whats next afterward?, Robert Clinton will be our next congress!
Maybe it saves you energy, but you should stop making Subtalk one of those places where you can turn your brain off.
(I just heard on the news that a poll showed that if Bill Clinton ran for mayor he would win the Primary w/ 40% of the vote and then defeat the Republican 3 to 1. I think he should go for it!)
That's because you live in New Jersey.
Chelsea is going to run for Mayor of Jersey City. Everybody else is!!!
I hope the city doesn't wind up like it was 20-30 years ago. After I became a refugee and moved west it was l8 1/2 years before I went back to visit, was pleased with how things were cleaned up and feeling safe again, so was back a few more times. Had it been what I remembered I'd never have gone back.
[That's because you live in New Jersey.]
Heh -- I don't know, though. Clinton has enormous power, and being a Democrat he can get away with cuts a Republican never could. How much you want to bet that by the end of a Clinton mayoralty both the Governor and State Legislature would be in tears?
Or perhaps he'd just ask them all to "kiss it." :)
GOD HELP US !!!
Why don't Bill and Hil just go away, disappear, vanish, VAMOOSE !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey. Blame the Republicans who don't let sleeping dogs lie and make a big deal out of the pardon controversy.
No, blame New Yorkers who sent her to the Senate and just might be dumb enough to elect Billy boy mayor.
His pardons have little to do with her senate run.
This story's on the magazine's website. Amtrak is running out of time and money
The end quote is a not-so-subtile hint from John McCain that it's time to kill off the company, and the story makes the point that the current Acela service between New York and Washington has shaved a big two minutes off the Penn Central's pre-Metroliner time between the two cities, which probably isn't scaring the airlines much.
The problem is the Catch-22 situation: Amtrak needs votes from reps and senators from all over the country to survive, and they want service in their states. But the company can't make a profit so long as they provide service in those states, unless the upcoming spoke-hub plan for passenger trains in order to boost Amtrak's small package freight business works.
The train from up here in Smallbany down to the city is about to be cut *WAY* back, looks like Shrub's making all those who said "Bush supports transit" a few days ago look like monkeys. The "restaurant" car is already gone and word is there'll be half the trains on the Empire corridor (even after NY paid in) because the money has indeed gone away for Amtrak ... at least that's what I'm hearing from the guys over in Rensselaer ...
I'm sure CSX and NS are ready to roll their passenger cars as soon as the pointless arrow croaks ... I know CSX has a few wrecked "former Barnum and Bailey cars" on a siding down in the Orlando area.
Why do peope equate mindless support of Amtrak with "supporting transit", and anyone who's anti Amtrak (for whatever reason), is "anti transit"?
I'm pro transit, but hardly pro Amtrak. I think it's a sick joke, at best.
FWIW, my train was 1 hour late today, so maybe it's just that?
Probably because it's ALL WE'VE GOT upstate. While we pay taxes for subways and commuter rails and express busses for downstate, we ain't got sheet for us up here for all the money we DO pay in taxes. We don't even have those toy busses that upstate cities have out here. If we want to travel to NYC or Syracuse or even Branford, it requires a train given what the airplane costs ... or we buy more SUV's ...
Sure Hamtrak, the route of the pointless arrow is a joke. But it's the only joke we have up here ... I'm sure folks down yonder would be none too pleased if the subways were closed permanently, right? Amtrak is OUR subway up here ... and yes, it needs a lot of work. But without Amtrak, we're screwed up here.
I'm pro transit, but hardly pro Amtrak. I think it's a sick joke, at best.
Amtrak is the best you'll ever get because without Amtrak you'll never see anything other than a commuter train or a Metroliner on the NEC. Anti-Amtrak means anti-realistic long distance rail travel and pro-freeway/airline. I'm sure you fantacy pipe-dream with hi-speed rail lines all accross the country is better than Amtrak, but I'm sorry to say this: WAKE UP! IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN! NEVER IN A BILLION YEARS!
For you and Selkirk both I reply. I'm a lifetime railfan who at earlier years of my life if a train were avalable I wouldn't have considered any other mode. Even today considering I don't like being in the air but have to sometimes, and the comfort level of the train against a bus, the train still wins hands down.
But I've probably taken more busses than trains for long distance trips and the reason is SERVICE. Not only the availability of a bus to where I live [have been on the ex-Northern Pacific line for 24 years] OR take a bus over 200 miles to get to a train; but the availability of so many more schedules let's say from New York to Chicago which I've done a few times.
The other thing is Greyhound runs on time almost flawlessly, except from my experience,unless weather is bad. Safety first.
Would I still prefer the train? Yes. Back in the early 60's things were better on intercity rails in all ways, true the trains had little patronage but there are still people who'll ride the train, but have given up because of poor performance.
I can go on and on like smaller trains a la Turboliner or the old Burlington Zephyrs that could provide more frequent service, rapid transit type service with them that could offer service to more towns and come and go like subway trains, not all the farting around like is done too often. But that's another story.
The main pointis that no matter which form of transit you take when you travel you depend on it and expect to be there for what you have to do.Or want to do..when they say you'll get there. But from what I hear air delays have gotten bad too. I've been lucky what little flying I've done.
Actually, I'd think if McCain was crusading against it, Bush would probably want to double Amtrak's budget, given the great love the two have for each other :-)
We'll see, but the word the Amtrak guys are getting from on high is "zero" for the budget. Funny how tax cuts provided for in the budget can be done without having a budget to start with, but then again, politics is powered by antigravity. But the folks I've talked to over there and the folks I've talked to with NYS DOT have all said, Amtrak is gone, word from Washington ... They may keep "metroliner" service but if it ain't on the NEC, it's going to be shut down. And NEC is taken as NYC to DC, not anything north of NYC along the water.
But like all else, we'll have to wait to see the budget before this becomes "fact" ...
[And NEC is taken as NYC to DC, not anything north of NYC along the water. ]
Well that settles where the northen terminus of 2ns Ave Subway is going to be :-)
Arti
I'm sure CSX and NS are ready to roll their passenger cars as soon as the pointless arrow croaks
You mean they'd want to offer passenger service? That sounds odd to me ...
Check it again ... I was being extremely facetious there, with tongue actually cutting a hole through my cheek. All they have is a couple of wrecked cars from the Barnum and Bailey circus derailment several years ago. Neither carrier is the least bit interested in Acelas or any of Amtrak's other cars. CSX and NS would love nothing more than seeing passenger cars forever banned from their tracks (and yes, they're ITCHING to get their mits on the NEC for fast freight *only*.
My point was that if Amtrak dies, so does passenger rail with it. And NJT will end up having to build their own railroad too because CSX will never allow commuter lines on their mainlines ... look at what SEPTA's going through as just one example of what NS and CSX will do to you if you want a passenger line on their ROW ...
The government should just force the railroads to at least operate limited service cross country trains. CSX and NS could handle the NE Corridor and upstate service. UP and BNSF could handle the cross country stuff via trackage rights on NS and CSX. Of course that'd never happen becuase the involved parties could never cooperate so I'm just living in dreamland.
And it would be written off as "communism" by the trickle-downers. Telling private business what to do would be neosocialism. Ist verboten. Passenger service hasn't turned a profit since 1944 no matter what any railroad has tried - that's how it fell to government in the first place - and government's function is to do those things that the people or business cannot do for themselves ... rail transport is one of them, all else can take the bus I guess.
I just wish they'd end the subsidies for airports and highways, then we could have that genuine "level playing field" we hear so much about ... but trains cannot compete with subsidized highways and airports that receive a far greater subsidy than Amtrak per passenger carried ... don't mind me, I'm VERY unhappy about what I've heard is about to happen to Amtrak - it literally is as though word came out "the subways are being shut down permanently" while others sit and say, no problem, the Taxi and Limousine Commission will sell the tracks to the car services and everything will be OK ...
I've NEVER even ridden any type of rail vehicle except the fake trains they offer at amusement parks and the Monorail, which is pretty pathetic. Now, I'll probably never get to ride Amtrak either. I wonder if UP and BNSF are paying attention and willing to pick up the slack. They wouldn't have to devote too much to it. I'm sure the givt. would give them a "bonus" for picking up the slack. I'm pretty sure UP would just fire up it's dead lines and we'd have GP-9s pulling passenger trains just like it was 1958 again.
We shall see and probably quite soon ... the annual budget manipulations and trial-balloon floating are now underway and all of the branches of the federal government are in the firm hands of the oil companies. Won't be much longer before we know reality but the one thing you CAN wager is that no incentive will be large enough to make the freight roads take up passenger service. There is no money to be made hauling geese, only money lost. Same for the subway. *NO* passenger service ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD is capable of turning a profit. All of them depend on subsidy. ALL ... the reason Amtrak sux is because they've never been handed ENOUGH money to resolve so many problems they face ... look at all that's been said about the tunnel rehab program, having the money for fire stairs for the Hudson crossing ALONE ...
Guaranteed, not one railroad anywhere will shed a tear for Amtrak and the passengers it carried that are perpetually getting in the way of boxcars ... if Amtrak spooches, that's it. Perhaps a NY to Washington state-operated railroad of sorts comprised of extended commuter runs that each go part of the way there. What is now Amtrak from NYC to DC would end up being changes of three trains, maybe four, each on their own schedule, each with their own fares, each serving *ONLY* their own local customers, not those going "end to end" ... or not ...
Everybody talks about road subsidies, but most highway funds come from gas taxes which are basically user fees for using roads and should not be counted as subsidies. Does anybody have any iformation about the amount of subsidy after you subtract gas taxes?
Rigt. And all the freight roads and AmTrak pay those gas taxes as well (or did you think that diesel fuel wasn't taxed?). Then those taxes go to fund highways. Then there are the non-subsidies - did you ever notice how highways are not taxed, their upkeep and improvement paid for by the (town, city, county, state, US) DOT from your tax dollars; the railroad's ROW is taxable and they pay for all their own upkeep and improvement.
And what about all the roads that aren't highways? How are they paid for?
Also, I think amtrak should lower fares. I heard it cost like 300+ dolars to get to NYC by tain. I'm not sure if that's one way or two, but it's still quite expensive. I would suggest they have Greyhound type fares but they're losing so much money as it is, a proposal like that is unreasonable. I don't know what to say for Amtrak. They should've just kept those GG-1s and FL9s in service. They've never really been able to afford any new equipment they've purchased. Sigh, I wish I was a ward of the government, I could be 23 billion dollars richer...
They should've just kept those GG-1s and FL9s in service.
That's not a very good answer. You can keep old equipment running only so long before it's more expensive and unreliable to use those instead of buying new equipment.
The answer to McCain's nonsense is to make sure that we have enough votes in Congress to keep him in his place. He can talk all he wants, but he doesn't get to do anything about it.
I've always been pro-Amtrak, but lately I'm wondering if it's worth the trouble to keep up a national rail system in a car dependent country. So many routes seem utterly worthless. One train per day per direction on long haul routes is not doing jack to eliminate traffic or pollution. Perhaps the politicians who demand routes through their states are doing nothing to help the Amtrak cause. If it is "eliminated or reorganized," passenger rail service is not going to disappear in this country, just in many parts of it, especially the parts that say they don't need it. There will still be trains from Norfolk to Boston, as well as spurs to Pittsburgh and Albany. Eastrail™? The West Coast trains from San Diego to Seattle will still run. So will most Chicago area trains. And any train with significant state funding will survive, such as NC, MO, VT, and maybe even the Texas Eagle. And then FL has a consitutional amendment to build a high-speed rail network by 2003. Perhaps regional companies (with state and federal funding) would be a better setup. Competition (not on routes, but for funds based on efficiency, number of passengers carried, etc.) could spur new ideas and efficiencies, and the better off companies serve as models for their less profitable brethren. Maybe we do need a national dialogue on the future of rail in America, has McCain has suggested (although I doubt his motives).
My beef is with Amtrak is their monster trains they run across the heartland. They run them every single day (on most routes), with not that many people paying not that much. In these areas, it is quicker and cheaper and more convenient (eg boarding @ 3am) to ride Greyhound, so it ain't folks without cars trying to get around.
For a few it is a nice vacation at a really low price. It is basically a massively subsidized land cruise business. I say charge close to what it costs to run these trains, and run them maybe once a week. Or month.
As the US News article points out, it isn't just taxpayers subsidizing this land cruise business. A NY-DC Metroliner gouges us $38 more than it should.
I often go NY-Philadelphia. I discovered it is cheaper to rent a car for the day and drive than it costs to take Amtrak -- for Northeast Direct, the cheapest option. I rent now. Or use NJ Transit/SEPTA.
Amtrak makes sense on the NEC, the West Coast, and a few routes around Chicago. That is where they should focus their energies.
Got on uptown "M6" at 17:00, dipped one fare. At 17:10 some poor
tourist gets on bus at W4th with a dollar bill. Took his money and
dipped him. Got to NYP at 17:25 and went on Uptown 1-2-3-9. When I
swiped, the display said "1 Xfer."
Why didn't it display 2 transfers? What is the algorithm if you don't
dip simultaneously on the bus?
It probably reads the second dip on the same line as a non-acceptable transfer and thus starts a new transfer mode with that second dip. Remember-you can't transfer from a bus back to the same line or certain parallel lines.
You're forgetting that you are supposed to be able to dip four pax at a time on the bus, collect 4 xfers, and use them on another bus or in the subway. (Of course the xfers have to be used all at one time.) There must be a time limit between the initial uses after which the xfers don't accumulate. The question is how long?
10 minutes between dips is too long for consecutive transfers. Also the 2nd dip 10 minutes later on the same line voided the pervious transfer (can't use that here since it is the same line number with in the 17 minute "Just Used" window".
That's not the question.
If I board the bus and dip twice in rapid succession, I get two transfers.
When Aaron dipped once, and again ten minutes later, he only had one transfer.
What's the cutoff? It's somewhere between ten seconds and ten minutes.
Or maybe the dips must be consecutive? It's possible that in order to get the two transfers, you need to dip consecutively at the same farebox (or swipe consecutively at the same turnstile, I suppose,) without it seeing anyone else's card between dips (swipes.)
Can anyone disprove this?
Mark
That would be my guess, also.
This is just one of the items that the TA/Cubic never told us about.
They seem to be in a "need to know" mode on a lot of the detail.
Thanks to the folks on this board I know more then a lot of my colleagues who have to keep the fareboxes working.
Mr t__:^)
If that's the case, it should be publicized.
Particularly in the subway, I can see how a group would easily get broken up by someone else in a particular rush, or perhaps would use two turnstiles.
Probably 2 minutes or something. Obviously the person who has the card just has to swipe/dip x times with x being the number of riders including him/herself.
Even on the subway? Do the turnstiles accumulate swipes? (I know the old turnstiles accepted multiple tokens.) Rather than risk losing a fare, I've always swiped once, gone through, and passed the card back.
That is what I used to do but once a transit police officer, seeing I had exited to crossover at 3rd Avenue/149th Street in the Bronx, swiped me and my companion in on his card by swiping twice, then the two of us entered. Since then, I have learned you can swipe up to four times before you all go through. Just don't take forever to go through. While often I don't share my card, if you take too long, it will deduct fares but not let you enter or give you the "USE THIS TURNSTILE" message, idk which.
I've done four swipes at a time both starting on a bus and starting on the train. I just make sure the other three people are behind me. It never has been a problem.
MetroCard- If you use a regular (pay-per-ride) MetroCard you can pay for up to four people at one time. Swipe four times at the turnstile pr dip four times at the bus fare box. Id you try to pay for five the turnstile will beep twice and you'll see a message "Transfer limit exceeded".
Tokens- You can deposit up to ten (10) tokens at one time but you must use the extra fares within two minutes for each spin of the turnstile (entrance). If you wait too long, the turnstile will start cancelling fares. (The wheel will beep and the imaginary person went through.) Once a fare is paid or lost, you have two minutes for the next person/
Confused--
all time is 24 hour time
1000-deposit three tokens, person one enters
1002-token two lost if person does not enter
1003- person two enters, You now paid three fares and only two entered.
If person two went in at 1001 ansd person three at 1002 all is good.
If a person exits while a group is entering the clock stops and resets after the exit is completed.
1001- a person exits
1003-if person two does not enter the token is lost.
MetroCard- If you use a regular (pay-per-ride) MetroCard you can pay for up to four people at one time. Swipe four times at the turnstile pr dip four times at the bus fare box. Id you try to pay for five the turnstile will beep twice and you'll see a message "Transfer limit exceeded".
That still doesn't answer the question: is the proper sequence swipe-swipe-swipe-swipe-go-go-go-go or swipe-go-swipe-go-swipe-go-swipe-go? From other posts in this thread, it appears that both work.
Tokens- You can deposit up to ten (10) tokens at one time but you must use the extra fares within two minutes for each spin of the turnstile (entrance). If you wait too long, the turnstile will start cancelling fares. (The wheel will beep and the imaginary person went through.) Once a fare is paid or lost, you have two minutes for the next person/
Why the timeout? A fare paid is a fare paid, no?
In the pre-MetroCard days, I occasionally played the game of putting a token in the slot and standing back, waiting for a train to arrive, and running through with my arms in the air. Once, the token clerk stepped out of her booth and turned the turnstile, explaining that someone could ride for free. I asked her how it was a free ride when I paid for it myself; she agreed and sent me through the slam gate.
That token clerk's initial thoughts appear to be reflected in current policy. Why?
it is swipe, swipe, swipe, etc then enter. Once you stop the sequence, it is over.
The time out- it is not my doing. I just quoted from the training material they gave us.
Your comment about swiping and waiting- I have to agree with the station agent. If you are the only member iof your party you could be construed as paying for someone else or possibly as selling swipes. Yes- I know you did not sell swipes but a cop might question you. I have seen cops question customers for alleged swipe selling and I supported the customer's proper position.
it is swipe, swipe, swipe, etc then enter. Once you stop the sequence, it is over.
Then the TA should publicize that fact. It's far from obvious.
The time out- it is not my doing. I just quoted from the training material they gave us.
I know.
Your comment about swiping and waiting- I have to agree with the station agent. If you are the only member iof your party you could be construed as paying for someone else or possibly as selling swipes. Yes- I know you did not sell swipes but a cop might question you. I have seen cops question customers for alleged swipe selling and I supported the customer's proper position.
I don't understand.
I wasn't questioned. I was, at first, simply denied my paid fare. I had to raise the question.
I couldn't have been selling swipes -- this was long before MetroCard was even conceived. A token is a token; even if selling tokens is or was illegal, I can't imagine it how it could be construed as cheating the TA out of any money as there have never (AFAIK) been bulk discounts on tokens. Before MetroCard, a token was treated as a coin worth $1.50 (or $1.25, or $1.10, or whatever); even many stores accepted tokens. To suggest that my fare be revoked because there's a slight chance I might be (hold your breath) selling a token for its monetary value is, frankly, ludicrous.
To all Subtalk/Bustalk users; Please use caution when dipping/swiping for a stranger and accepting (fare) payment; A cop might take this to mean that you are "selling fares" illegally, and detain you.
Did you try to swipe again or check at the booth to see if it still had one xfer still on it? I believe that it says "1 Xfer ok" meaning thats how many were subtracted.
Mike
Mr Mass Transit
That's not the way it's supposed to work. All the xfers are used up at the same time.
The proposed new MTA head endorses the full line. In today's Daily News:
Kalikow Vows 2nd Ave. Train
I wish him luck. If he's relying on Washington to fund a full-length 2nd Ave line....
The fact that the head of the MTA is fully endorsing the line is important. One must get one's political ducks in a row, and it appears an important duck (Pataki) is now finally lined up. Now we need others.
The fact that the head of the MTA is fully endorsing the line is important. One must get one's political ducks in a row, and it appears an important duck (Pataki) is now finally lined up. Now we need others.
It's not so important to line up the ducks as it is to line up the bucks.
Without the ducks, there ain't no bucks.
This MAKES a whole lot of sense. Considering that funds were allocated for the 2nd Avenue subway in the early fifties (they were subsequently put to other uses), then this is a project that's more than a half century overdue.
Hi, again. There seems to be some confusion as to whether the Marcy Ave. station is officially open during the time that the Willie B is closed to trains. The crews are discharging all inbound AT HEWES ST., to connect w/ the shuttle bus. According to the notices, Marcy is open and passengers whose dest. is Marcy should be permitted to alight there.
They do that so the people who transferred from the bus and the people who have to transfer to the bus don't meet and therefore will not swap misinformation. This also keeps people heading for manhattan from being able to stay on and end up going back (when they don't hear the announcement), have to cross over and do it again, etc...
What difference is it who meets where? If a train is supposed to go to a certain terminal, it should not be emptied one or more stops earlier.
We go by what the General Order states. Case closed.
Exactly what did the G.O. state about discharging at Hewes rather than at Marcy?
For this coming weekend The Stations Dept bulletin(SD-92-01) states:
Manhattan Bound trains will discharge at Hewes.
Queens Bound Trains will originate at Marcy.
North Bound(to Queens) J platform is closed.
I'm a Brighton Man hardly go up to DA BRONX but this weekned I got the D at Bedford Park.
The train came in from 205th St, and dumped. 5 minutes later a new crew. So, is the D's terminal at Bedford Park on the weekends, is this where the crew changes? THey do and end change at 205 and then come down?
That's SOP, all the time, I thought you would find that interesting.
Peace,
ANDEE
There is no crew facilities (lockers) at 205th St. But there is some at Bedford Park IIRC.
During the AM and PM hours, Monday thru Friday, there is a dispatcher at 205th St for the D's. The dispatcher at Bedford Park is for the B's. On the midnight tour, the D dispatcher works at Bedford Park. There is a tower person at each location.(This will change once the Concourse Master Tower is completed)
But, don't all Ds change crews at Bedford all the time?
Peace,
Andee
It seems that unless there is a service disruption, every crew drops back one train when they reach Bedford Park.
Let me see if I got this straight, the crew change is southbound. Northbound is a regular stop, off to 205th, change ends, return to Bedford and change crews???
You are correct . . . . Sir.
But, there is a relay @ 205 and I believe that they have a "relay" T/O so they don't have to walk from end 2 end. Train Dude can elaborate.
Peace,
ANDEE
Again, citing 1971 history which may or may not still be the reality today, there were two switchmen to do the relays during peak, one during non-peak and you'd walk your own train late at night. When there was a switchman, you'd go across the platform and take the next one out. Probably the same routine today though.
I thought that the T/O still had to walk back to the other end. My understanding is that... A N/B "D" train arrives at 205 and discharges it's passengers but the T/O does not dump train and the relay T/O will board the last car of the train. After discharging the T/O will take the train out of the station and dump, then the relay T/O will bring the train back into 205th Street (on the S/B track, of course) and dump the train there. The regular T/O changes ends and takes train to Bedford Pk Blvd. where the crew change takes place.
Wayne
Yeah, that's different. When I worked the line, we'd dump on the south platform when we came in, the switchman would take over and take the train out onto the tail tracks, then walk the car since the one on the OTHER track would be the next one s/b anyway. We'd walk the platform, charge up the s/b and take it to Bedford.
Been that way as long as I can remmber going back to 1965 and was SOP long before that. Except they didn't take 5 minutes to move out. The new crew was supposed to be in position ready to take the train over. But I can remember a full time dispatcher at both 205 and Bedford Park. But that's been a while. Dropouts, shortening trains etc was done at 205 st and the dispatcher at Bedford Park kept track of crews and monitored train movements thru.
205th was part time when I worked there - the dispatcher's job at 205th was mostly keeping track of put-ins, lay-ups and relays at 205th. Bedford was always the master tower. When trains were just being relayed at 205th, no need for someone on the west end window there. Bedford was where you'd change though since that's where the lockers were. I can't see the TA having expanded on the 205th facility as the "tower" was pretty small.
I passed by the South Brooklyn yard across from Costco yesterday and noticed the Q cars are up by the front (Second Ave. side) of the yard and that new track panels are stacked halfway into the lot.
Seems to me that new track is going to be laid for additional car storage.
This could be related to the forthcoming departure of the Redbirds, as I'm sure most of them will leave the system via carfloats.
If you're in the area of Sunset Park, give it a look. There was even a NYCT crew on site there. That's most unusual for a Sunday.
BMTman
Sounds like I need to take a trip over there soon! There's a lot going on around there, including the removal of all the RTSs a few weeks ago, and the construction of a small cinderblock building at the southeast corner of the yard. Any idea of its intended purpose?
Mike, AFAIK the cinderblock building is NOT on SBK property. That's in a small lot next door. Could even belong to Costco.
Yeah, I also noticed the missing RTS fleet. There are mounds of earth and ballast in the area where the buses were stored.
BMTman
I passed by the South Brooklyn yard across from Costco yesterday and noticed the Q cars are up by the front (Second Ave. side) of the yard and that new track panels are stacked halfway into the lot.
Seems to me that new track is going to be laid for additional car storage.
This could be related to the forthcoming departure of the Redbirds, as I'm sure most of them will leave the system via carfloats.
What's the condition of the spur track as it crosses Second Avenue? Last time I saw it, the track didn't seem like it was usable.
Peter, the track might look like crap, but believe me they use it.
You should see the condition of NY Cross Harbor's tracks by the "S" curve at 2nd Ave. and 41st. Street. You'd think they couldn't use tracks in that conidtion, but they do. They will have a pilot riding the nose of their diesels as a look-out for road trouble. Occasionally, the guy will walk along side the loco (going at about 5 mph) to signal the engineer if it looks like the flange is going to jump over the top of the rail.
The bad rails on the streets over there are due to years of abuse from tracker-trailer traffic.
BMTman
Doug, I think Peter ment the missing rail on 2nd Ave. vs. the split rail on the curve. The missing rail was replaced & that's why the cars that were in the SBK yard are now gone (except for Qs which the TA museum owns).
There's another week spot on the Cross Harbor tracks just outside the Brooklyn Army Terminal. The moveable part of the switch is loose, so a member of the crew has to watch the switch. It's interesting to watch it jump as each car goes over it.
If NY & Atl got the float contract (as we've heard) I wonder what the future of Cross Harbor is ?
Mr t__:^)
[If NY & Atl got the float contract (as we've heard) I wonder what the future of Cross Harbor is ?]
Thurston, where did you get your information? The truth is that NY&A DIDN'T place a bid on the float contract. The reason I heard for their no-bid action is that they have no experience in maritime operations.
Alot of the waterfront railway work is based on maritime laws and even tidal flows govern when a move will be made.
NY&A prefers their shortline status on the Island.
BMTman
They are tearing up the gargage train roadbed at 207 Street Yard and recuilding the original piering from the original IND carfloats in preparation for a brand new carfloat. I was told this is where the IRT cars will be offloaded for their voyage to the deep. It would be nice to see new cars brought in there too, in thinking back to the pictures of the steam engines bringing in R1-100.
"new track panels are stacked halfway into the lot."
Are these brand new never used track panels ?
If so, wouldn't it make sense to utilize used track panels from "el" structure track work projects? After all, the panels may be used for storage tracks, so new panels seem to be a waste.
Bill "Newkirk"
But Bill, once the Redbird removal is done those panels could be used elsewhere in the system, so nothing lost, nothing gained.
BMTman
On the MTA website I read:
>(2)
>Manhattan-bound trains run on the 4 from Nevins to Wall Sts then >return to normal service at Chambers St
>
>Late night, 12:01 AM to 5 AM Tue to Fri until Apr 13
>
>A shuttle train runs between Chambers and Fulton Sts.
>
>For Manhattan-bound service to/from Hoyt St, use the Borough Hall station.
>
>For Manhattan-bound service to Clark St, use the Borough Hall Station.
>
>For Manhattan-bound service from Clark St, take a Brooklyn-bound 2 to Borough Hall and transfer to a Manhattan-bound 2 at the 4 platform.
>
>For service to/from Wall St, take the 2 to the Wall St-Bdwy 4 station.
>
>For uptown service from Fulton St and Park Place, take the shuttle train to Chambers St.
>
>For service to Fulton St and Park Place, take the 2 to Chambers St and transfer to the shuttle train.
How can they possibly do this? There are no interconnections between the east side IRT and west side IRT in Manhattan, except for South Ferry!
The crew changes ends, then uses the South Ferry loop. See this thread.
My guess is this:
Northbound 2 switches to northbound express track north of Atlantic Avenue and runs to Wall Street, making all stops. It reverses at Wall Street and switches to the southbound track south of Wall Street. It then waits for the correct line-up at Bowling Green, proceeds on the outer loop through South Ferry, bypasses Rector and Cortlandt Streets, and stops at Chambers Street. It resumes the regular route,making all local stops to 96th Street and then goes via the Lenox Av Line to The Bronx.
It's rather awkward, but 33-HOB-JSQ on PATH is more or less the same.
With the PATH thing you don't have another route running through (4) on the same track a crew is changing ends. This is why when the same tunnel must be closed on weekends, you get the whole 2 Via Lex 5 Via 7th situation.
I was on the PATH Hoboken-Journal Square train the other day, but stupidly I didn't look at the one thing I wanted to know: What the marker lights read. At Hoboken, JSQ-bound trains pull in on the WTC bound track, while 33st-bound trains pull in on the normal track.
Well, if they follow the printed maps, like they do with all the other colors, both the yellow and blue lights would be lit.
And so if you know the answer already what's the problem?
Today I was at the Roosevelt Avenue station. A train enters on the northbound express track. The end sign of this train of R46 cars has the F sign. However, the side signs on all 8 cars of the train had the following:
N BROADWAY LOCAL
N to CANAL ST
Some girl standing on the platform said to another girl on the train, "You know that's not the F train, right?" I don't know how she meant to say that, but, IIRC, she stayed on the platform and waited for the next F train. The F or N train left the station a moment later.
I gather someone had made a typo entering the message number into the control panel on the train to make the above message appear instead of the usual reading of
F 6 AV LOCAL
F QUEENS EXPRESS
Fto179 ST/QUEENS
I guess nobody checks to see if the right signs are up.
N to Canal is one off the F to 179 sign. Happens more often than it should, though.
The N doesn't go to Roosvelt. I would assume an F. One more reason I don't like the LCDs on the R46s.
I'd bet it was an F train. I'm way out of touch with the NYCTA subway, but I thought that R-46 haven't been on the N since it's north terminals were switched with the R.
Wayne
Also, they were all mixed up this past weekend with the Es going to Whitehall..There were Es up front with R information on the LCDs and Rs had 6th Avenue info on the LCDs..it was a mess..different from this, though, I believe the typo theory.
Also, what does IIRC mean?
IIRC, "IIRC" means "If I recall correctly".
The contract with bus, subway, and trolley workers expires at 12:01 AM Thursday. Major stumbling block is cost of medical and prescription plans. Stories in Inkie and (Philadelphia) Daily News, which includes a photo of one of SEPTA Rail's Airport stations. Regional Rail is not a participant in this contract.
Here we go again!
The good thing about the strike for me is that I'll have easier access to King of Prussia, since the 124 and 125 would be rerouted to Villanova, which is within waling distance (a mile or so, whatever-better than going all the way to Gulf Mills). It'll also be great for the Villanova students going to the K of P Mall.
While 1% of people may be helped, a strike would bring the city to a complete halt again and really screw up a million people's lives, like it does every three years. At least that asshole Brookens isn't involved.
If a strike does occur, hopefully it will be VERY brief, unlike the
whopping 40 days 3 years ago.
Expect the same old tactics from 234 (slowing down I-95 and Schuykill traffic and blocking regional rail trains), but they are also going to try something new; they are going to block the PATCO trains at the foot of the bridge, thus shutting down the entire city.
Hopefully they'll be a little smarter than they were 3 years ago when that rocket scientist Brookens was in charge. They did a lot of dumb things and didn't get anyone siding with them. I don't see what blocking PATCO will gain, given PATCO's very minimal role in city transportation.
Also, the real effect last time wasn't the typical 'doomsday' one that transit strikes had been in the past, indicating that people are finding other ways to get around without City Transit. This tends to be the unfortunate truth for many except the truly transit-dependent. It appears as though, no matter what happens this time around, the fare will be going up anyway.
What gets me is one of the main issues - prescription coverage - and the fact that Viagra is the fourth most prescribed drug among TWU members. You'd think they'd be a lot happier, given this, but the ones I see are the same grumbling 'public be damned' louts!
TWU 234 makes me sick. They should be ordered back to work, or fired. A strike only works in a competitive environment. One company is on strike, all their customers go to another company. Management loses millions everyday and caves in. When its a monopoly, management only has political pressure, not financial pressure, to make a deal that harms the company's longterm interests. It's just like the Hell Atlantic strike. If there were two phone companies in Philly, I guarantee the strike wouldn't have lasted as long. Maybe I'm just so mad because I went 5 weeks without a phone (or internet).
does anyone know where I can get a track diagram of grand central terminal ?
There was a good article in May '75 Trains magazine by William Middleton. Don't have a copy myself, but good hunting.
Mr t__:^)
I think that Middleton's book Grand Central (Golden West Books, 1977) has a track diagram in it.
I've been looking all over the city for this book. I tried at the Queens College library, and found the book in 3 places in the CUNY library system, but not at Queens College. I then went to the library in Flushing. No dice. I then took a 7 express to 5th Avenue to go to the New York Public Library. I searched for it. The status for this book: MISSING. Later I went to the Brooklyn Public Library. I got the message "Library holds no copies" on the computers there.
you might try ordering from the author. Check the site www.nycsubway.org for the track map diagrams and the link to the Author's address.
Your QC ID card allows you to borrow from other CUNY Libraries.
Check this out!
http://www.trains.com/content/dynamic/articles/000/000/000/236fhgfv.asp
I was able to find the book at the 96th Street library.
But it's a reference volume.
Do you think it's something that can be swallowed in a few visits of the library?
They also have it in Mid-Manhattan (like most things).
Also, why did you have to go all the way to Manhattan to look up a book?
I couldn't find it in Queens and I didn't want to go to Brooklyn.
Not that I have anything against Brooklyn; I was born there. Manhattan is just easier to get to from Queens College.
I didn't find it at Mid-Manhattan. I just needed to take a look at it for a while. I placed it on a re-shelving cart on my way out.
No, I mean why did you go anywhere at all? Couldn't you use the internet?
The Staten Island Advances' "Staten Island Live" website states that there will be a new stop added to the SIR to make travelling to the SI Yanks new ballpark easier---any info out there? Will certain trains bypass St. George and just run to the park?
I finally found the article (when saying you see something on a website, it's nice to provide a link to the site!) here. What they'll likely do is run trains into and out of St George on track 10 (the only wye track). It's likely they'll alter the summer schedules to either add trains the will serve the stadium first, and then the ferry, or vice-versa. More likely is post-game service directly from the stadoum, and no direct service to the stadium.
-Hank
The Staten Island Advances' "Staten Island Live" website states that there will be a new stop added to the SIR to make travelling to the SI Yanks new ballpark easier---any info out there? Will certain trains bypass St. George and just run to the park?
I'm surprised. It looks as if the new ballpark is immediately to the west of the St. George terminal. The SIR, of course, runs south from St. George, and in any event the ballpark is in easy walking distance from the terminal.
In fact, the ballpark is located on or very near the right-of-way of the long-abandoned north shore route.
Will the Staten Island Yankees and the Brooklyn Cyclones be playing in the same league? That would be all time if they were. Think of it. The Yankees and Mets started their rivalry at the Rookie level and carrying it up all the way to Shea and Yankee Stadiums. It would add a lot to the rivalry, even if the Yanks and Mets are in different leagues. What arguments they would engender. I'm coming to New York on March 30th for a dinner honoring the 1951 Giants and Dodgers, baseball's greatest all time rivalry. New York is ripe for a new one.
Yes, they are in the same league. Look at www.brooklyncyclones.com for schedules and game times.
But this is getting off-topic for this board, so I digress.
Yes, they are in the same league. Look at www.brooklyncyclones.com for schedules and game times.
But this is getting off-topic for this board, so I digress.
I would like to know what will happen when the Manhattan Bridge returns to full 4-track service? Is it possible they can rip up the upper roadways, so there will be less weight and pressure on the bridge? They can keep one level with traffic in the middle and rapid transit on both sides. This will take a lot of weight away.
What will be the car-assignment when the Manhattan Bridge returns to 4-track service in 2004-2005? Which cars in the IND-BMT division will be retired by then?
(I would like to know what will happen when the Manhattan Bridge returns to full 4-track service? Is it possible they can rip up the upper roadways, so there will be less weight and pressure on the bridge? They can keep one level with traffic in the middle and rapid transit on both sides. This will take a lot of weight away.)
Are you kidding me?!?! Rip out those roads? Manhattan would become a nightmare!!!! You can't be serious.
The whole purpose of this work is to allow trains to use both sides of the bridge. Most likely, N&Q will run the So. Side, while B&D will run on the No.
Manhattan is a nightmare already. Restrict trucks to Manhattan (from 9PM-4AM), and restrict all vehicles with a GVW of over 18,000 lbs. to overnights only, like the PA is doing with the new fare scheme.
You will have few if any trucks clogging streets, and during those times the other available ways (Battery Tunnel, Willy B, 59th) can handle the load.
Manhattan Truck Traffic should only be allowed from 9PM-4AM.
Please excuse the typo in my prior post.
This is still a crappy idea.
Not "crappy" to the 500,000+ daily transit riders. I am most likely on the low side of that figure.
I guess those that impede progress or new ideas to solve old problems are just loco.
Because those deliveries are important! If you had said that cars should be limited, but not trucks, then I would understand, since the car people can take the subway.
Of course, I would be against that too, but I am FOR tolling all of the bridges into Manhattan.
Deliveries can be made off hours. This is a 24 hour city, provisions can easily be made.
Tolls on the crossings is an idea with merit, it would be very hard to contruct toll plazas on the free bridges, I think a ban on trucks (at the very least) during daytime hours (and of course during rush hours) is more implementable.
The truck traffic on Canal Street (from the Manhattan Bridge) is due to the one-way toll structure.
Traffic going east can take the Outerbridge Crossing / Goethals Bridge paying one toll, and then cross from Staten Island to Brooklyn toll free. Coming back, they avoid all tolls by using the Manhattan Bridge / Holland Tunnel route.
If all toll facilities charged tolls in the Eastbound direction (as was the original plan), this wouldn't be the case!
Manhattan Bridge was never designed for today's heavy truck and auto traffic. It was designed first and foremost as a railway bridge. Even today's upper level lanes had trolley tracks. When it opened in 1909/1910, that was it's purpose, for rail only.
I believe that the bridge should become solely for transit.
This would put a burden on the Wiliamsburg, Battery Tunnel and other East River crossings, but in this City, Public Transit should take priority over fuel operated vehicles.
I believe that the bridge should become solely for transit.
Are you joking!?!?! That would kill traffic in Manhattan. Literally, Manhattan would becoma on huge traffic jam.
This would put a burden on the Wiliamsburg, Battery Tunnel and other East River crossings, but in this City, Public Transit should take priority over fuel operated vehicles.
BULL!!! I like transit and all, but it's ridiculous to say what you're saying. That bridge supports tons of traffic, more than ANY other East river crossing. Closing it would be stupid. Granted, Mass transit is better, but cars and trucks carry people to work, and considering that this is a MAJOR truck crossing, I think that you've been smoking something.
CURRENT bridge work will allow both car and train traffic.
Figure's that an enemy of the Culver line would say something that ludicrous.
No I am not joking. That's the point, to kill traffic. Unless you love gridlock on a daily basis, maybe you are "smoking something".
What I have suggested is far from ridiculous. Is the P.A. ridiculous? The exact same logic is being applied to those crossings. Why? Because it's a sound idea. Try to entice trucks to travel at non-peak hours. What trucks carry people to work?? As far as cars are concerned, they have other crossings, and those crossings would flow much better once the truck traffic has been removed from them. Your logic to allow all forms of travel unimpeded into Manhattan is exactly why we have a traffic nightmare every day. You must restrict truck traffic to non-peak hours. Why is it stupid? To prevent gridlock? To ease the strain of the Manhattan Bridge? To allow the city not to choke Mo-Fr? To keep trucks off bridges and streets that they were never designed for in the first place?
The trucks may use the Battery, Willy B, 59th Street and Queens Midtown between 9PM and 4 or 5AM, and all day weekends. That gives a minimum of 4 crossings, not to mention the Triborough, that brings it to 5.
Current bridge work is the reason why you have backups from the Prospect Expy. to the Manhattan Bridge and Williamsburg Bridge. Remove the trucks and you will see a marked improvement.
The idea is sound. The Port Authority already has a similar idea in place for it's tunnels and bridges.
I am not an enemy of any transit line. I am an enemy of short sighted, arrogant, obnoxious people that need to resort to moronic expressions in order to make a statement, however.
>>What I have suggested is far from ridiculous. Is the P.A. ridiculous? The exact same logic is being applied to those crossings. Why? Because it's a sound idea. Try to entice trucks to travel at non-peak hours. What trucks carry people to work?? As far as cars are concerned, they have other crossings, and those crossings would flow much better once the truck traffic has been removed from them. Your logic to allow all forms of travel unimpeded into Manhattan is exactly why we have a traffic nightmare every day. You must restrict truck traffic to non-peak hours. Why is it stupid? To prevent gridlock? To ease the strain of the Manhattan Bridge? To allow the city not to choke Mo-Fr? To keep trucks off bridges and streets that they were never designed for in the first place?<<
I'm not saying that truck carry people to work. But tons of people ride cars to work across that bridge, and the only other bridge in that area is Bklyn. You obviously don't live anywhere near downtown brooklyn/manhattan. Because you would know that stopping bridge traffic on the Manny B would be ludicrous. INSANE!!!
>>The trucks may use the Battery, Willy B, 59th Street and Queens Midtown between 9PM and 4 or 5AM, and all day weekends. That gives a minimum of 4 crossings, not to mention the Triborough, that brings it to 5.<<
That's ridiculous. Really, it is. Truckers have lives too, and they want to be home nights. You're being quite inhumane here, looking at ststistics. Further, NYCTA doesn't have enough equipment to move an additional 1 million people per day.
>>The idea is sound. The Port Authority already has a similar idea in place for it's tunnels and bridges<<
Right. Just try to cut off brooklyn like that. See how long those politicians of ours stay in office.
>>I am not an enemy of any transit line. I am an enemy of short sighted, arrogant, obnoxious people that need to resort to moronic expressions in order to make a statement, however.<<
Whooo, I guess i got someone pissed off. I guess you must be one of those people who get angry when someone says something that can be remotely taken as an insult. Well, i'll bite. I'm an enemy of uptight people who don't look at the big picture and have serious ego-problems. There it is.
In your first message thread, you indicated that trucks carry people to work. Re-read your message.
--I'm not saying that truck carry people to work. But tons of people ride cars to work across that bridge, and the only other bridge in that area is Bklyn. You obviously
don't live anywhere near downtown brooklyn/manhattan. Because you would know that stopping bridge traffic on the Manny B would be ludicrous. INSANE!!!--
Manhattan Bridge is not the only bridge in the area. Brooklyn Bridge is 1/8th of a mile away, the Battery Tunnel is 1 1/2 miles, and the Williamsburg is about 1 1/2 miles as well. You have the Brooklyn, Brooklyn Battery Tunnel, Williamsburg Bridges for Brooklyn to Manhattan crossings. That makes THREE alternatives to the Manhattan Bridge. As far as not living near Downtown Brooklyn or Manhattan, I don't. But I am sure the people that DO live in this area would greatly welcome this idea. I, in fact work in lower Manhattan, and am obviously much more aware of the congestion than you are. I travel back and forth between Brooklyn, Manhattan and Staten Island 12 times a week on average. There are alternate crossings, your argument isn't valid.
--That's ridiculous. Really, it is. Truckers have lives too, and they want to be home nights. You're being quite inhumane here, looking at ststistics. Further, NYCTA
doesn't have enough equipment to move an additional 1 million people per day.--
Truckers have lives, yes. Most of them live out of a cab, and I see quite a number of them on the road after 10PM. Truckers' will still make a living, in fact, maybe MORE of a living since they would be able to zip in and out of the city during overnight hours, and thus be able to make more deliveries than they would be able to during the gridlock daytime weekday hours. So, your arugment is invalid here again.
I cannot see how I am being inhumane, when my idea will benefit the majority of people entering Manhattan. My idea will reduce commuting times, reduce fumes and improve quality of life. New York is much too truck dependent. Provisions and rules must be implemented to give a priority to transit. Truckers will benefit for the reasons I have stated above, Transit riders will benefit, even cars will benefit, although I am not keen on the idea of cars coming into Manhattan unless it is in the form of a car pool, to maximize effectiveness on the commuting.
--Right. Just try to cut off brooklyn like that. See how long those politicians of ours stay in office.--
--That's ridiculous. Really, it is. Truckers have lives too, and they want to be home nights. You're being quite inhumane here, looking at ststistics. Further, NYCTA
doesn't have enough equipment to move an additional 1 million people per day.--
As far as 'cutting off' Brooklyn, how do you figure that? I am merely suggesting that TRUCKS be banned from entering Manhattan during peak times, that CARS be restricted to car-pooling during peak times, and the Manhattan Bridge be used for it's constructed purpose: RAPID TRANSIT. The elected officals would likely be branded as innovative heroes, if they put forth ideas such as this.
Now tell me, what statistics are you quoting from? The number of gridlock days? The number of parking summons issued to commerical vehicles? The number of moving violations issued?
NYCTA has "B" division surplus equipment. For example, R46 MUs number 750, and out of those 750, about 660 are in service. That gives 90 spares just for the R46. I estimate many more spares, according to figures. Each car class from R32s to the R68s has a surplus. (Source: www.thejoekorner.com) The equipment is there, and with the R143 and R160, you will have more than enough to satisfy demand.
--Whooo, I guess i got someone pissed off. I guess you must be one of those people who get angry when someone says something that can be remotely taken as an
insult. Well, i'll bite. I'm an enemy of uptight people who don't look at the big picture and have serious ego-problems. There it is.--
Pork and I sometimes have disputes, you don't hear us calling each other names. We have thought provoking dialogues. I don't get angry, I welcome the chance to hear an opposing view. I can have a well thought out dispute without resorting to name calling and implying that I am "smoking something". You yourself are doing just that, 'ignoring the big picture'. That just shows not only a lack of a sense of humor, but a lack of comprehending the point of the message.
>>Manhattan Bridge is not the only bridge in the area. Brooklyn Bridge is 1/8th of a mile away, the Battery Tunnel is 1 1/2 miles, and the Williamsburg is about 1 1/2 miles as well. You have the Brooklyn, Brooklyn Battery Tunnel, Williamsburg Bridges for Brooklyn to Manhattan crossings. That makes THREE alternatives to the Manhattan Bridge. As far as not living near Downtown Brooklyn or Manhattan, I don't. But I am sure the people that DO live in this area would greatly welcome this idea. I, in fact work in lower Manhattan, and am obviously much more aware of the congestion than you are. I travel back and forth between Brooklyn, Manhattan and Staten Island 12 times a week on average. There are alternate crossings, your argument isn't valid.<<
What the Hell are you talking about? My argument is valid. Yours is the dumb one. You're saying: 'by shutting down a congested road, we'll shift the traffic to already congested roads.' And by the way, I see bridge traffic from both sides everyday. Dumbass.
>>Truckers have lives, yes. Most of them live out of a cab, and I see quite a number of them on the road after 10PM. Truckers' will still make a living, in fact, maybe MORE of a living since they would be able to zip in and out of the city during overnight hours, and thus be able to make more deliveries than they would be able to during the gridlock daytime weekday hours. So, your arugment is invalid here again.<<
What stops them from doing it now? NOTHING!! And, there are plenty of trucks that are simply day jobs, kinda like train operators. There are AMTRAK operators and there are NYC subway operators. There's a big difference. And there are plenty of truck that have to make deliveries to stores at around 5am. They are leaving the city at around 1-2pm. Don't disagree with this, because I know a few people who drive trucks in such a fasion. Dumbass.
>>I cannot see how I am being inhumane, when my idea will benefit the majority of people entering Manhattan. My idea will reduce commuting times, reduce fumes and improve quality of life. New York is much too truck dependent. Provisions and rules must be implemented to give a priority to transit. Truckers will benefit for the reasons I have stated above, Transit riders will benefit, even cars will benefit, although I am not keen on the idea of cars coming into Manhattan unless it is in the form of a car pool, to maximize effectiveness on the commuting.<<
Simple. You are looking at the numbers and saying that people will shift to rapid transit. Let's just say that 500,000 people from Bklyn give up their cars for Mass transit under your plan. The Bklyn, Willmsbrg. and Bk battery won't be able to handle all the remaining traffic from Mh B. You are looking at people as if they are programmable robots. I am looking at the situation realistically.
>>As far as 'cutting off' Brooklyn, how do you figure that? I am merely suggesting that TRUCKS be banned from entering Manhattan during peak times, that CARS be restricted to car-pooling during peak times, and the Manhattan Bridge be used for it's constructed purpose: RAPID TRANSIT. The elected officals would likely be branded as innovative heroes, if they put forth ideas such as this.
Now tell me, what statistics are you quoting from? The number of gridlock days? The number of parking summons issued to commerical vehicles? The number of moving violations issued?<<
This is annoying. You do not see traffic in downtown brooklyn. No way that all of it will go to Bklyn, Williamsburg and Bk Battery. Manhattan Bridge carries more traffic than Bklyn or Williamsburg. And, as for Manny B being built for Rapid transit: SUSPENSION BRIDGES are NOT GOOD for RAIL LINES!!! What's my source? Any engineer. Granted, traffic in Midtown and uptown might (MIGHT) improve. But i don't see how closing Manhattan Bridge and forcing that traffic onto already packed bridges will help. Dumbass.
>>NYCTA has "B" division surplus equipment. For example, R46 MUs number 750, and out of those 750, about 660 are in service. That gives 90 spares just for the R46. I estimate many more spares, according to figures. Each car class from R32s to the R68s has a surplus. (Source: www.thejoekorner.com) The equipment is there, and with the R143 and R160, you will have more than enough to satisfy demand.<<
First of all, you need to set yourself straight. Just because none of the car fleets are entirely deployed doesn't mean that we have a surplus. According to you, 90 R-46 units never go anywhere. WRONG!! You can't deploy an entire fleet. What happens when you have breakdowns? Evidently, you haven't been paying much attention to posts here, and other transit information. The B division is actually short on cars. The V line is proof of that: When R-143 arrives, the extra cars from L line will go to Queens Plaza. And, R-160 is replacing the R-32GE, R-38, R-40S/M, R-42. What were you saying about extras?
>>Pork and I sometimes have disputes, you don't hear us calling each other names. We have thought provoking dialogues. I don't get angry, I welcome the chance to hear an opposing view. I can have a well thought out dispute without resorting to name calling and implying that I am "smoking something". You yourself are doing just that, 'ignoring the big picture'. That just shows not only a lack of a sense of humor, but a lack of comprehending the point of the message.<<
Good, You an' Pork can do things oyur way. What I said to you was hardly an insult; and i've seen worse on this site. I am hardly 'ignoring the big picture'. You are looking at it as some italian guy from staten Island, While I am looking at it as someone who sees the traffic forsthand, and knows people are not programmable robots.
Sorry for calling you Dumbass, But when people jump to conclusions about things I say it pisses me off.
Have you ever taken a look at Manhattan traffic during daytime (after 10 AM,) most of the cars are either trucks or cabs!
Arti
He doesn't look at anything. Except numbers, he sees those real good.
I believe that rapid transit lines should cross the East river in tunnels, not over bridges. That security of a tunnel as opposed to a bridge is what I am after. I read in Trains magazine a few years ago that the reason why railroads do not use suspension bridges is because that type of bridge is not suitable for rail traffic, from an engineering standpoint. Now you may say that a train of heavy frieght cars is not the same as a tran of subway cars, but from time to time, maintenance of way trains do use the subway system to keep things in good repair, and having a right of way over a bridge knocked out of service because of structure problems is a headache we can do without. Replacing the Manny B tracks with two new tunnels traveling in a parallel routing would allow for some increased capacity, if done properly, right?
then the trucks and SUVs can have the bridge al to themselves, while the riding public gets faster, safer service to where they need to go.
THANK YOU!!!
Of course it would be better to have tunnels. But it won't happen. You are in fantasyland, like J-loco. We have to work with what we have.
What we have is the bridge. Use it for it's intended purpose.
You are right, I wish that a tunnel was proposed, and since we have to use what we have, so be it. I did want to use some diplomacy to keep the peace, so that we all could enjoy the rails and railroading.
Still, a new tunnel would be something for us to lobby for, right?
It will not come about any time soon, maybe not in our lifetimes, but a small ray of hope is better than none. The second ave subway should have been built when I was a baby, but it is still in the planning stage, if you can believe that. I am pushing 50, and I hope to be able to ride it someday. By the way, you know a good Italian seafood restaurant in the metro area? My wife would kill for a really good dish of shrimp scampi, and I love calamari. Close proximity to any rail line would be a plus.
Doc: There are a few good ones in Little Italy in lower Manhattan. I have eaten at several of them and the food is good and reasonable. If you want to pay more midtown has a number of good ones. But you will pay forit.
Locations, please?
There's Taormina's on Mulberry St. in Little Italy. If you like pizza, Lombardi's on Spring St. is good.
Here we go again with Foodtalk.:-)
>>You are in fantasyland, like J-loco. We have to work with what we have.<<
How am i having a fantasy? You're the one talking about shutting down Manny B to all cars.
There is a major design flaw in the Manhattan Bridge for transit use -- the tracks run on the outside.
Trains are heavy. They place an unbalanced load on the structure, which causes the bridge to flex. That is why the renovations are required. (Note on the Williamsburgh Bridge the tracks run in the center.)
The George Washington Bridge was designed for the lower deck to carry train traffic. Would that they had gone through with that plan!
Correct, those tracks should NEVER have been placed on the outside.
However, the strain would be lessened if fuel powered vehicles were banned from the 92 year old structure.
The strain by trains (which I guess are powered by wind sails) is much worse than the strain caused by cars and trucks (and busses).
Good point. Even electric trains are powered by fuel of one kind or another--the fuel just isn't on the train itself.
:-) Andrew
I hope we are not going to start comparing fuel to electric traction now.
Correct, but it would not harm the bridge to have the cars/trucks removed. It was never intended for that.
You got that right!!!
How can you agree with that?!?!
Shutting down a SUSPENSION BRIDGE (**COUGH** Not good for trains **COUGH**) to cars!! The most trafficked?!?! That's the worst idea ever! Evidently, you guys don't care about NY's Stores. Or the people who deliver their goods. You also don't care about people who take cars to work. NY will have the worst gridlock.
Canal street & Bowery have a severe traffic gridlock situation. Between the trucks and cars traveling across the Manny B, the fumes and noise seem to be worse in the Canal street area than anywhere else in the city.
IF not shutting the bridge to vehicular traffic completely, there should be alot more restrictions. I know truck drivers have it hard, but there are alot of other vehicles (cars, single driver,SUV's) that shouldn't be there in the first place.
It's too bad there's no way to bring goods in via another way (such as rail). I think Chicago had a system (now abandoned) where deliveries were made underground.
Canal street is one of the most clogged arteries in the city, and the pollution is so bad yellow traffic lights are black with soot.
Something has to be done.
What could be done? Restrict truck traffic to off peak hours, maybe? =)
And what is transit powered by? Galley slaves?
No, LOCOmotion.
Are you saying that the galley slaves are crazy?
That's scary :-)
j/k
The staten island commuter that drives in is even more scarier, with one hand on the coffee mug, one hand on the cell phone and a knee on the steering wheel.
With the mirror down so he can shave :-)
[...what will happen when the Manhattan Bridge returns to full 4-track service?]
Who knows? The bridge might not exist in a few years!
Remember that even the work that's being done now will still not fix the fundamental flaw in the bridge's design: the tracks are on the OUTSIDE. Specifically, the more-heavily-used 6th Avenue tracks are on one side and the less-used Broadway tracks are on the other. (In pre-Chrystie Street days, it was the more-heavily-used Broadway tracks on the north and the less-used Nassau Street tracks on the south.) Thus, even with full service, the bridge will continue to twist to one side as it always has, due to the imbalanced loads of trains and passengers.
In an ideal world, the tracks would have been put in the center of the bridge, or in a tunnel. Absent that, I believe that it would be technically feasible, though VERY expensive, to reconfigure the bridge approaches at each end, so that both Manhattan-bound tracks (6th Av and Broadway) would be on the north side, and both Brooklyn-bound tracks would be on the south side. That would put both 6th Avenue and Broadway trains on both sides of the bridge, which would better balance the loads and ease the twisting somewhat, thus adding life to the bridge. Again, it would be hugely expensive, though probably still cheaper than digging or sinking a new tunnel.
>>Remember that even the work that's being done now will still not fix the fundamental flaw in the bridge's design: the tracks are on the OUTSIDE. Specifically, the more-heavily-used 6th Avenue tracks are on one side and the less-used Broadway tracks are on the other. (In pre-Chrystie Street days, it was the more-heavily-used Broadway tracks on the north and the less-used Nassau Street tracks on the south.) Thus, even with full service, the bridge will continue to twist to one side as it always has, due to the imbalanced loads of trains and passengers.<<
You obviously don't read the NY Times. While the twisting will never stop, The present work will reduce it to a tolerable amount. BMT broadway should be seeing more service after the bridge work. What would improve it even more would be if 2nd. av subway was built with a turn-off at 63rd st, and it ran down Broadway to Bklyn. Anyhow, The bridge will exist.
>>In an ideal world, the tracks would have been put in the center of the bridge, or in a tunnel. Absent that, I believe that it would be technically feasible, though VERY expensive, to reconfigure the bridge approaches at each end, so that both Manhattan-bound tracks (6th Av and Broadway) would be on the north side, and both Brooklyn-bound tracks would be on the south side. That would put both 6th Avenue and Broadway trains on both sides of the bridge, which would better balance the loads and ease the twisting somewhat, thus adding life to the bridge. Again, it would be hugely expensive, though probably still cheaper than digging or sinking a new tunnel.<<
FORGET THAT!! Seriously, there is no need for any such thing. Even if there were equal loads, the bridge would still twist, and now in both directions. With a Suspension Bridge, It's best not to have trains at all. But the work will reduce twisting, and scheduled maintenance will keep the bridge in working order.
Without having read the other responses yet, I'm going to say we should basically go back to the "normal" configuaration---B, D, and F on Sixth and N, Q, and R on Broadway. That way there is local and express on both lines, and Broadway (which needs the Q way more than 6th Ave does) will have its foothold on the Manhattan Bridge shortcut to Dekalb.
:-) Andrew
D'OH! I didn't exactly answer the question! I think that they'll probably be just beginning to retire the R38s, R40s and R42s at that point, and we'll have some new 60-footers. Convert auto lanes to rail? I'm a little wary of that.
:-) Andrew
It's bad enough to run into messages that are off topic and insulting but to SEE profanity laced tirades is too much. To those of you who are guilty of such low-class, half-witted, brain dead stupidity I have this to say: ONLY FOOLS, BETTER YET FOOLS WHO'VE BEEN HATCHED AND DROPPED FROM A TREE, LET ALONE BORN, ARE DUMB ENOUGH TO SHOW OFF THEIR IGNORANCE BY POSTING MEAN SPIRITED, LIBELOUS, STUPID, FOUL MOUTHED, IGNORANT, THOUGHTLESS, HALF-BAKED, SPACED-OUT, CRAZY, GUTLESS, COMMENTS FOR ALL THE WORLD TO SEE! This message board is about Mass Transit, PERIOD so LEAVE THE CRAP AT THE DOOR (but if you can't hold yourselves, WEAR A DIAPER)!!!
Eric Dale Smith
And this post helps people how?
Actually, valid point ... I note that a lot of folks still in school visit here and those @#%^@!@!% "parental filters" are used by most. Profanity is enough to get a site blocked since the filters aren't smart enough to take it in context or filter a specific message. The use of profanity would therefore result in the entire site being blocked which would make a LOT of people VERY unhappy ...
That's the reason why I prefer to use words like A$$, phark and things like that just so this site doesn't get trapped up in it all. Because of this, I must agree with E_Dog ... there's more to it and he's right.
I understand that, but he was basically against unnecessary BS and he posted a truckload of it himself. I was just wondering how that was supposed to help?
Didn't mean to sound like I was getting involved in that, just wanted to point out why profanity could be a problem for the board in general. Sorry if it sounded like I was intending it for you in any way ... that wasn't what I was getting at ...
No need for apoligies. it's cool. i probably didn't make myself clear enough anyhow.
No problemo ... but in general practice here, we do need to be careful ... while the economy burns and so many other problems face us, shutting down things for bad language is a much easier thing for those who would control to do. I'd hate to see this place deep-sixed over "language" of all silly things ... that was my only point in gassing off. :)
I understand that. I love this place, problems and all. i'd hate to see it go.
Yes, all of us. Let's clean this up fast. I would be somewhat out of sorts if this website was deep-sixed. No no no, that must never happen. Let's agree to disagree in a gentlemanly manner and be as professional about it as we can. And I can say I have been guilty of a few indescretions myself in the past so my shirt isn't exactly clean either.
I'm no saint, either, but I do get put off by seeing posts liberally sprinkled with four-letter words. There is a place for that sort of thing, and it's not here.
Here, here! Duly noted. . . -Peace, Thomas :-/
I agree. Sorry again ItalianGuyinSI.
Since I added to this post, I am going to have to set a good example by watching my P's and Q's, but I have one problem. I do use the word hell and damn somewhat. Does that count against me, or are those words mild enough to give me a pass? If not, I'll really be under pressure to conform.
Words mean nothing.
It's what you mean by those words that make the difference.
oNLY IF YOU GO TO COSTCO IN WINCHESTER VA
Or you can say "(M)arket-(F)rankford (B)road (S)treet" as code, and we'll get the meaning.
but ... but ... Bender won't stop at any of THOSE stations. :)
Pot, pot! Pot I say!
LOL!
Anyone here know when retirement of the redbirds will begin? I'm getting tired of reports that R-142's are here, but still seeing Redbirds all over (2,4,5). Can the Birds!
RIGHT ON!!!!!
Hey u need to be patient buddy & im tired of hearing R142 is here but they are not in services. The problem is that someone post it here about R142 Bombardier having problem with the brake & R142 Kawasaki having problem with the interior light & signs. They are trying to get rib of bugs on R142 other day i was waiting to get home from work on #6 line & R142 #7221-#7230 pulling into station & the interior LED is not working & they using Old style PA System.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Soon to be NYCT-MTA Traffic Checker
What is a Traffic Checker?
[What is a Traffic Checker?]
One of those guys you see at a station with a clipboard. I think they try and get a "head-count" of passengers at usually heavy-volume stations. The Traffic Checkers I believe are outfitted with vests and occassionaly wear the googles.
BMTman
What the hell are GOOGLES?
Jeff, it's the same thing as GOGGLES except there are no TYPOS....:-)
BMT(Better Mass Transit)man
Nah ... you were actually right there, pallie ... Traffic checkers are them guys up in helio-colopters and every one of them is named BARNEY ... (barum-pum)
Oh yeah ... transit issues ... they ain't taxis ... that ... umm ... go to Penn Station. Yeah, that's the ticket.
oh they ask you about ur final destination, I always say Wakefield 241st on the 2 no matter where im goin
Lets just face it, New York City transit will never have the modernization in the subways like others cities have. They just dont give them enough money for that. The automated annoucements will probably be replaced with the good old fashion PA system in a few years on the R142s and the glamour of the new cars will go the same way the others did. In a few months they will look just as dingy as the other cars that came before it. So stop investing all this money on technology and build plain old decent looking trains that work right.
One question. Isnt there a shortage of cars on the J line? If so why did they strap the IND/BMT redbirds!!!!????? Try waiting on that platform for 15 minutes for a train during rush hour in a snowstorm!!!!
Why work right, when you can work even better?
And how do you even know what will happen in a few years? Did you build a time machine, or do you remember previous experiences the TA had with automated announcements they've never used?
With some 15 year old R62A's (which is basically an R17) now getting MDBFs over 1 million miles, they should have left well enough alone and made the R142 be an R62A configured as married pairs to reduce weight and make the interiors formica.
Good for you. Yes they were a throwback and the disasters of the R44/46 brought about the regression. But the damn things work and that's what the railroad is about..moving trains with people or freight. Not playing nursemaid to experiments. You said more than I can say by typing for l5 minutes.
I caught the 12:40pm train from Pt.Washington to Manhattan. It's been awhile since I rode it from Port Washington. The Manhasset viaduct is one of the highest RR bridges I ever saw, and gives an awesome view.
Just before Bayside we were wrong railed to the E/B track. The W/B track was out of service between Bayside and Shea Stadium. I did not see any track work going on, and E/B trains were delayed. I saw one waiting ahead of the switch as we crossed back. Yet more "phantom" track work, perhaps the LIRR is taking a lesson from the phantom work on Queens Blvd.
Good fast ride into Penn. I immediately went for the A train.
Got on a packed S/B A in the head car. It was an R44 (no front window).
Had to wait outside of Canal for a C local to switch.
After Chambers the races were on.
Really wrapped it through Cranberry where we sped on through there.
Emptied out at Jay. Fulton express was pretty quick. R44's can be fast if they wanna be. Emptied out more at East Broadway.
Then later on we were speeding across the Rockaway flats. That is a fast stretch. And a long one too. Flat, straight track means no GT's.
Stayed on all the way to Far Rockaway. Everytime I take the A train to the Rockaways I feel like I'm on the LIRR, perhaps because those tracks once carried LIRR trains.
And once past the wye, you even have high voltage lines running beside the track, just like on the LIRR.
You can also get a glimpse of the mammouth Power plant at the end. The boardwalk looks so nice, but it's always deserted.
At Mott, I switched to an A train of R38's across the platform.
The ride back on the R38's was even more impressive, speedwise. We were sceaming across the Rockaway flats and Fulton express. That Fulton express is fast.
At Jay I got off and got an F. The usual R46 was fast through the Rutgers street tube. Those timers are easy, there's only a few and then they wrap it.
It was a fast ride through Queens Blvd but Fulton seemed faster. Something weird happened, the lights in the front of the car went out occasionally while between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt. I wish they'd have stayed out, the tunnel view (through the cab) is much better.
Pulled into 179st, and then caught some buses back to home territory.
One other question. There were track workers around Howard beach going. Going back I noticed what appeared to be new third rail over the bridge, and the workers were gone. But I did see one guy walking around the tracks around where two tracks become 4, but he had no uniform. He looked like just somebody wandering around the tracks. The ROW looks pretty secure, I wonder how he got in.
>>But I did see one guy walking around the tracks around where two tracks become 4, but he had no uniform. He looked like just somebody wandering around the tracks. The ROW looks pretty secure, I wonder how he got in.<<
Patterson (a storage yard[not for trains]) is near there. He probably was a worker. There's always people there.
Everyone here is talking about those great old redbirds, and how ther're better than the new equipment we're getting. This is the biggest crock of schitt i've ever heard. Why?
Redbirds- They are utter crap. Let's face it: They use ancient technology and are running at the end of their lives. Look, Stainless steel is much better than that horrible LAHT construction on the Redbirds. Paint must be used to prevent rusting, and everytime a car get graffiti, it needs more paint. Further, they are old. OLD!! It's time to get rid of these cars which have squealing, loud trucks, and poor air conditioning. They're falling apart at the seams.
R-142-New. NEW. Can't say that enough. Why do we want to keep old cars? WE DON'T!! Everyone here talks about the problems with the new technology. But I don't see anyone here saying that they're gonna trade in their computer for a typewriter because it crashed a few times. All this new technology is for the better, it allows for faster repairs and better service. They did not go through that period where cars got shammed in the 70's/80's. They have CLEAR announcements. What's so bad about that?
Old B div. equipment- It is horrible.(xcept the R-32) TA should not purchase anymore 60ft equipment. If you have larger cars, The parts are more expensive, but there's less of them, which is more sensible. R-143 equipment should be 67' cars. Or even better, let's run something like the Triplex unit again, Which has potential to be lighter than present IND/BMT cars. Why are we going backwards? Let's use technology to our advantage, not ignore it, as the TA has in the past.
Finally.
It's nice to see that there are even more people willing to fight for NEW TECHNOLOGY and against the RUSTBIRD JIHAD.
I got an idear. Why don't we give some retired redbirds to graffiti junkies? That way, we won't have to see the redbirds in service, and at the same time those graffiti junkies can go about their ol' merriment. That's striking 2 birds with 1 stone.
That's a good idea. Of course why do something constructive like that when you can just sink them?
Sinking them is constructive. It supports the development of marine wildlife which in turn contributes to keeping the water cleaner.
BTW, giving them to graffiti artists would solve squat.
The reason these people do these things is not because of artistic expression, it's because it's dangerous and illegal. If it was legalized, nobody would give a flying fuck about it.
I'm not above using the occasional "hell", "damn" or "crap" on the board, but you're going overboard using the F-word in full.
I get put off by it, too.
Well, I don't care what kind of language somebody uses, so long as it's not directed at someone. If it is, it doesn't matter what words are used.
Plenty of people use f*ck or f---, and I feel it's just the same, covering the word is stupid.
From now on, I'll use shit instead of flying fuck.
Plenty of people use f*ck or f---, and I feel it's just the same, covering the word is stupid.
Another alternative is to use the Italian translation, "fongool."
I'll settle for "flying leap".
I always thought it was "phong goul"
avid
If you give your dog an old shoe to chew on, it'll soon start chewing your new ones.
-Hank
I have no particular affection for the current fleet
of "redbirds", and I think much of the anti-142 feeling
is based on irrational, emotional attachment to them.
But.
Don't make the equal mistake of assuming that newer
must automatically be better.
All previous attempts by various agencies during the past 60
years (of government operation of the transit system) to
introduce radically new rolling stock have been unqualified
disasters. Admittedly these have also been few and far between.
The BMT reached its zenith of car design in 1928 with the D types,
which were solid, reliable performers prematurely retired by
the TA. The BMT's experimental lightweights of the 30s and 40s
were cutting-edge but somewhat tempermental.
The TA continued to order equipment into the 1980s that was
up-to-date in '48. This has also been the most solid, reliable
equipment to date in the entire history of the NYC Transit System.
What the TA does best is slow, incremental adoption of technology.
When, on the other hand, they try to jump to the bleeding edge
they get burned.
Despite outwardly smiling faces, every TA insider I know tells
me they have "serious concerns" about the 142s long-term prospects.
Individually, most of the technology components are good ideas,
but collectively the car is the proverbial camel -- a race
horse designed by committee.
We should not have as many 142/142A sets on the property as we
do now. Considering the number and magnitude of new features,
the test trains should have been held to a stricter acceptance
test than the 30-day period used for previous, conventional
tech orders. Instead, acceptance was granted even though neither
set passed the original terms of the 30-day test.
I'm sure the same reaction today by some people in getting an R-142 on the No. 2 line is the one I had back 30 years ago getting an R-40M/42 on the LL instead of one of those anichent, creaky R-7/9 cars (though a lot of my dislike can be summed up in three words: summer and air conditioning), but by the time the R-44s arrived I had begun to appreciate the attributes of the older cars and didn't automatically think everything new is great.
If Dave had gotten SubTalk up and running around 1954 or so (pure laziness on his part, I guess) I'm sure posters would have been making disparaging comments about the BMT C units and gate cars and talking about how great it was to have modern equipment like the R-16s come into service instead of that "utter crap" running right now.
I'm assuming the MTA's reluctance to accept full deliver of the R-142s now is an attempt to avoid a 21st Century version of the R-16 fiasco and that in the long run they will be better cars than the `Birds. But the ability to produce lemons is still well within the capacity of the Bombardier Corp., so I would just step back for a moment and wait and see what happens before sending the Redbirds out to offshore Long Island.
Heretic! Heh. "those anichent, creaky R-7/9 cars (though a lot of my dislike can be summed up in three words: summer and air conditioning)"
We know where you live (I think) and we'll get you for that. Subways are a nostalgic thing (my rants and those of others who adore "old wrecks" as R9's were called when I volunteered for them) and so what if you gotta schvitz ... all part of the culture ... and you know Herr Mayor wants every bit of that "attracto do tourista" ... makes John Rocker crazy. :)
I think it was the full-width cabs on the R-44s that made me rethink my othodoxy about newer always being better, at least from the railfan's viewpoint, which in the case of the R-44s meant not out the front window. I started appreciating the IND's first-borns more after that, though the R 7/9s on the Eastern Division with the MTA corporate exterior paint jobs and the green and gray interiors kept thoughts of the scrapper in my head. Or at least a permanent place in purgatory for Bill Ronan and whoever came up with that color scheme.
everyone makes lemons bombardier recalled the R-142's because of faulty wiring. reason was because of inexperienced workers. Kawasaki recalled the R-142a's because of poor structure welding. reason because of inexperienced workers. (you guys should have remember this from the news channel Fox 5 and CBS 2 in late 1997) and its funny how the lemons only come to USA. Bombardier T-1 cars, were built in canada and pieces in vermont, problem free. Kawasaki railcars in europe came with only two
And nobody grows more lemons than Adtranz.
ignore my most recent post. it is incomplete.
Better get some more Bondo. Pretty soon, the Redbirds will also be known as Bondobirds.:-)
Redbirds- They are utter crap. Let's face it: They use ancient technology and are running at the end of their lives. Look,
Stainless steel is much better than that horrible LAHT construction on the Redbirds. Paint must be used to prevent rusting, and
everytime a car get graffiti, it needs more paint. Further, they are old. OLD!! It's time to get rid of these cars which have
squealing, loud trucks, and poor air conditioning. They're falling apart at the seams.
Last time I checked, the Redbirds are still taking people from point A to point B without fail. I will admit they are old but they are faster and can hold more people than an R62 or an R62A. The TA has learned this since they ordered the redbird style seating for the R142/R142A order. The Redbirds are still going.
R-142-New. NEW. Can't say that enough. Why do we want to keep old cars? WE DON'T!! Everyone here talks about the
problems with the new technology. But I don't see anyone here saying that they're gonna trade in their computer for a
typewriter because it crashed a few times. All this new technology is for the better, it allows for faster repairs and better service.
They did not go through that period where cars got shammed in the 70's/80's. They have CLEAR announcements. What's so
bad about that?
If they keep getting more R142/R142As than they can put on the road, they might have to send the R142/R142A to the bottom of the ocean since they only have so much space to store them. These new and improved cars are not in service. Nor are my WMATA CAFs but that is another story. A train is no good as long as it sits on a siding so it can be fixed for the billionth time. In the meantime, the redbirds are still rolling, so they get all the credit.
Old B div. equipment- It is horrible.(xcept the R-32) TA should not purchase anymore 60ft equipment. If you have larger cars,
The parts are more expensive, but there's less of them, which is more sensible. R-143 equipment should be 67' cars. Or even
better, let's run something like the Triplex unit again, Which has potential to be lighter than present IND/BMT cars. Why are we
going backwards? Let's use technology to our advantage, not ignore it, as the TA has in the past.
You sure you don't mean new B division equipment? The B division cars are so slow it isn't even funny. The R32s are the strongest B division cars out there. The R44 and R46 cars are trash. So is the R68/R68A order.
Rethink your theory. New and improved isn't always so.
>>>I will admit they are old but they are faster and can hold more people than an R62 or an R62A.
WMATA: They are faster? Great! - how so, if I may ask? They are lighter than the R-62/62A's (especially the World Fair's R-33/36's), and IIRC have been fitted with motors of equal output (119hp) as those on the R-62's. Still, however, I have not actually heard anyone actually state they are faster.
-curiously,
turnstiles
The Redbirds are heavier. They have practically no plastics, and are made out of HEAVIER LAHT steel instead of lighter-weight stainless.
>>>The Redbirds are heavier. They have practically no plastics, and are made out of HEAVIER LAHT steel instead of
lighter-weight stainless.
Pork: The R-62/62A's were single-unit cars, at least when delivered ( some Kawasaki cars were in 5-car units, even early on - but the R-62/62A order really were fundamentally of single-car units), whereas all the oldbirds (except the 30 odd single-unit R-33 WF) are married-pair units that share common undercarriage equipment. Also, at least in the Greller book, the weights listed on the car maintenance (or other) dept. diagrams show that the older cars are lighter, especially the WF cars. Greller even notes the R-62's increased weight, but also says that they "have the muscle to move the weight", meaning the (then) new 119hp motors installed on the new R-62 cars. Perhaps my memory fails me here, but IIRC, they are lighter.
This is not to say that they should remain in service forever, however.
-cordially,
turnstiles
The R26/28/29 class is about 2,000 pounds heavier than an R62.
An R36 is about 2,000 lighter than an R62. However, if you
factor in the married pair aspect, the R62 and R36 are virtually
the same weight.
Stainless steel is heavier, for the same tensile strength, than
LAHT.
The best I can offer is since the big railroads, or most of them, had gone to stainless steel construction so many years earlier for passenger cars why didn't the TA? Having equipment that needed pain-ting and was prone to corrosion offset the initial higher cost of stainless steel.So there was no real saving. For my own purposes I don't care but practically speaking the continued construction of LAHT carbodies was a mistake.
The old High-V and Low-V were as durable and faithful a piece of equipment as any [as were D types, etc] and gave many many years of good service but time marches on. I wish it didn't. The SMEE's did prove once they were finally well maintained to do as good a job as any piece of equipment you could want and that includes the redbirds. If they were stainless steel they'd be much like the R32's are now.So what fills the bill..the R62.
It would have been to my pleasure if the original equipment that I loved could have been with us forever but life doesn't work that way so the other plan is to have equipment that works, and does the best job for the money.
Jeff: Thanks. I stand corrected on the R-26/8/9 cars.
-cordially,
turnstiles
I will admit they are old but they are faster and can hold more people than an R62 or an R62A.
How are they faster and can hold more people? Their capacity is the same, and the R-62 is faster (it's lighter, and its equipment isn't so tired).
XLNT excellent post !
Thanks!
I see you agree with my new and improved is not always so statement!!!
I'm not surprisd by your sentiments. You are from DC. The place they ran 35 year old New Looks into the ground. As much as I'd like to ride ONE someday, I wouldn't want a fleet of beat up old junk running the streets. Same thing if I was riding the subway. I'd rather have an R-142 than an old corroded Red Vulture anyday. The R142s are starting to come back to life and the problems are being worked on. The PC wasn't perfected in a day you know. Also, the abacus(sp?) worked fine for computing purposes, but I don't see you rushing to trade in your computer for one.
RTS 2150:
Do you live in NY? If not, how do you have such strong sentiments about redbirds (sentiments I agree with wholeheartedly).
>>Last time I checked, the Redbirds are still taking people from point A to point B without fail. I will admit they are old but they are faster and can hold more people than an R62 or an R62A. The TA has learned this since they ordered the redbird style seating for the R142/R142A order. The Redbirds are still going.<<
They get people from A to B..... in the worst possible fashion. True, R-142's are sidelined. But have you heard of any new technology that didn't have problems? Oh wait, the Redbirds didn't have problems. 'Course, there wasn't really much onboard that could have the problems R-142's have.
>>If they keep getting more R142/R142As than they can put on the road, they might have to send the R142/R142A to the bottom of the ocean since they only have so much space to store them. These new and improved cars are not in service. Nor are my WMATA CAFs but that is another story. A train is no good as long as it sits on a siding so it can be fixed for the billionth time. In the meantime, the redbirds are still rolling, so they get all the credit.<<
Some of these problems aren't that severe. The Kawasaki cars are having lighting and display problems. Even with those problems, they're better than the rusting squealing redbirds.
>>You sure you don't mean new B division equipment? The B division cars are so slow it isn't even funny. The R32s are the strongest B division cars out there. The R44 and R46 cars are trash. So is the R68/R68A order.<<
No, i meant OLD B div equipment. I agree with you that R-32's are the best equipment there. Peronally, I think that there's nothing better in the whole system. R44/46 aren't trash. As I recall, they were supposed to be ATO trains on 2nd Av. Even still, those cars can run if it weren't for those crappy signals known as timers. And a train of 75' cars can hold more than that of 60 footers. R68/68A is trash. It's nothing but a souped up redbird: They have stainless steel and those out of place bright colored seats. They were no attampt at modernizing the subway. And, as for other old B div. equipment: R-40s/m 42 and 38 are good?!?! They are among the worst cars presently in operation.
Some of these problems aren't that severe. The Kawasaki cars are having lighting and display problems. Even with those problems, they're better than the rusting squealing redbirds.
Just a matter of personal preference, but I prefer squealing and knowing where I'm going over total darkness and no signage.
No, i meant OLD B div equipment. I agree with you that R-32's are the best equipment there. Peronally, I think that there's nothing better in the whole system.
There's also nothing older in the B Division.
R44/46 aren't trash. As I recall, they were supposed to be ATO trains on 2nd Av. Even still, those cars can run if it weren't for those crappy signals known as timers.
R44/46 cars are great, since the "state of the art" systems in them have been ripped out and replaced with more conventional systems.
Hey, everyone. I´m spending my spring break here in Brasil. Today, for the first time out of the 13 or so times I´ve been here, I rode the Sao Paulo Metro!! It´s an awesome system, I took some photos of it. I plan on riding it again later this week. I´ll give a full trip report when I return this weekend. For now, I´ll leave you with this: the SP Metro is the love child between SF BART and the NYC subway. The subway cars look like a combination between a R40 slant, R38 and a BART train. The front ends are clearly influenced by BART. Hopefully, the photos will come out good.
See ya´ll next week!
Hopefully they'll be good enough to post too! olá! :)
Thanks to a ERA meeting early last year ("Subways & Trolleys A to Z") I got to see some of what you are talking about, i.e. they are big into heavy rail.
Looking forward to your photos.
Mr t__:^)
Another skit from SNL.
I have a CD about the SP Metro and it says the cars are modeled after the BART cars. I have yet to ride BART or the Sao Paulo Metro although I have an invitation to visit relatives in Rio and I should hope to ride both the subway in Rio and Sao Paulo.
The Sao Paulo Metro also has alot of art.
Look foward to seeing your photos!
Video shots of the Acela trainset and other high-speed rail systems was shown on a TLC show about futuristic transportation, eight minutes into the broadcast.
The show will should repeat later tonight in standard TLC rerun style.
Later,
Brandon
What's futuristic about it?
I don't know. After watching the program, it seems kinda lame. So far, they have suggested as transportation alternatives:
-Huge aircraft that can seat 800 people
-Better street design (using computer models to "eliminate congestion")
-High speed trains, like TGV, ICE, and they included Acela. Also delved deeply into Acela
-Personal rapid transit (which, personally, I support with a few misgivings)
-Cars, electric (!)
-Car services (where you pick up a car from the system anytime you want to go somewhere)
-Telecommuting
-Flying cars (the nightmare there is unreal... a three-dimensional road system for morons who can't even drive competently on the ground)
-Teleporting
Most of the stuff they presented seemed very far fetched. ESPECIALLY the flying car bit. I really think we need a good debate on how we want to move from point A to point B in the future.
I meant what's futuristic about Acela, not the show. The show sounds cool; too bad I don't have cable. Oh, and the 800 passenger plane (Airbus 3XX) just got the green light for production, but the first models will be configured for 500 something people.
I'm not sure they really considered Acela futuristic (by definition, it's not), but I bet they included it for a little bit of American input into their transportation program. Since they were highlighting foreign high-speed systems, they would be remiss not to mention it.
To be honest, it really wasn't emphasized. It was mentioned along with the other systems I mentioned.
P.R.T (personel Rapid transit)is cool.
Personal rapid transit is just an electrified freeway.
As most of you know, today SETPA anounced its strike plan and it was much the same as the plan of three years ago with suburban transit routes fueling regional rail trains. I came up with a fre more ideas and I was wondering if you guys think they are good/practical.
A) Temporatily reopen Regional Rail stops within the city limits that have been closed due to lack of patronage. A few that come to mind are the R8 N. Philly stop, Frankford Jct., Bridesburg and 49th? St. on the R3 (if the last two have already been closed) They could also provide more service to still open under patronized stations like North Broad and everything else on the R7 south of HOLMES.
B) Have managers run the MFL, at least b/t 2nd St. and 69th St. (to serve the Rt. 100-102) or all the way.
C) Run a special PATCO shuttle from the tail track at 8th and Market to 15/16th.
D) Have a judge order all strikers to return to work immediately or be fired while binding arbitration is held; as is the case with other vital city services such as firefighters or police.
How is SEPTA vital? You can probably walk faster to work as it is now.
Not if you don't live in Center City. A lot of people can't afford 40 days worth of cab fare from North Philly.
When did NY last have a general transit strike? How long did it last, and how did people get around?
I don't know when the last strike was, but when was the Taylor Act passed in NY? This is the law that set the 2x pay penalty per 1 day striked.
The Taylor Act also prohibits strikes by -ANY- public employee (fire, police, TRANSIT, TEACHERS, etc). To take a quote from the website:
the purpose of this act to promote harmonious and cooperative relationships between government and its employees and to protect
the public by assuring, at all times, the orderly and uninterrupted operations and functions of government.
PA, obviously, does not have a similar law on the books
My father, who was a teacher for 30 years, has said this law, though hated at first, gave the unions power, since it recogonized the right of the worker to organize, and forced the state/schools into binding contracts.
That's all I ask for here. Does that law apply to the whole state? Perhaps that's why: What's good for Philadelphia is bad for Pennsylvania, or so they believe in Harrisburg.
Upon another search, this answers that:
The New York State Public Employment Relations Board (PERB) was created in 1967 as an independent, neutral agency to administer the law that established representation and collective bargaining rights for all public employees throughout the state. As a neutral agency, the Board acts primarily as an umpire in disputes and conducts educational programs for the public and the labor relations community.
What about Boston?
A) Not a bad idea, but from my recollection, many of the trains were too crowded when they reached these stations that those waiting at them couldn't always board anyway (I recall this happening on the news almost every day at 49th during the '95 strike). There is always the concern about not enough cars, crews, etc.
B) This has been proposed (or threatened) in previous strikes for both the El and Subway. I don't think this is a good idea given the level of possible sabotage that union folks could inflict.
C) PATCO serves very little of the city and I don't think it's ever been a major player in past strikes (other than people from parts of the region driving across the Delaware to a PATCO station, parking and riding from there). The current service could easily provide this capacity.
I've never understood why private operators don't try to capitalize on bus service especially from 69th St to Center City under some temporary PUC authority. It might become popular enough to catch on even when SEPTA returned.
My fear is that the strike will take another toll on local transit from which it may not recover. There are many riders who left after the '98 strike and found other ways to go, almost always via private auto. Then the usual downward spiral will begin...
IN 1995 after a while I think they ran all the subway lines (the MFL and the BSL). Did they use suburban operators as well? Also, I never knew the North Philadelphia stop and the 49th Street Station were ever closed. When did this happen? Also, for the C idea, why do you need a PATCO shuttle? The trains serve 8th and Market anyway, and continue to 15/16th street.
Well, depending on the time of day the trains can be fairly infrequent and usually only 2 cars long.
You can add cars during a strike.
As they did in the 98 strike. At the time I was living in the burbs and hating it; and I rode both MARC and VRE cars along the R3 Elwyn local. I must say, they were much nicer. One more point against management in that battle.
And I've seen MARC cars at 30th Street. They must be getting prepared.
I've never ridden VRE trains, but the MARC trains are basically like the Regional Rail trains here, at least interior wise.
They take our MARC and VRE trains for SEPTA strikes? I didn't know that.
It's called a lease. MARC has equipment available since the Kawasaki Bi-Levels arrived. I'm not sure about VRE.
BTW what SEPTA needs is legislation requiring Binding Arbitration in a labor/management contract impass. The good thing is NO STRIKES. The bad part is that the arbitrator may award a higher figure than either the union or management proposed. That's happened several times in Baltimore. Despite the financial problems it may cause, at least the service never stopped.
49th and Angora on the R3 are still open, there was a plan to close North Philly on the R8 but I don't see why they should do such a thing...
Perhaps SEPTA management always keeps strikes in mind while defining routes. They shouldn't in a normal system, but given the tyranny they must work under, it makes sense every 3 years.
Another strike? When will this one happen?
As long as the strikers don't do what they did last time (walk off at 12 noon when some stupid people took SEPTA to Center City only to have no way home). If they do that again, I hope those heading in have some common sense this time.
Another strike? When will this one happen?
The contract expires at 00:01 Thursday.
The contract expires midnight Wednesday-Thursday, but that doesn't mean we know when they'll walk off, just as we didn't know last time.
I really like the heavy braking, when T/O's race into the station at full speed and then apply a heavy brake. Especially noticable on the A and F lines.
That's one thing you never get on the LIRR, they always bring the train to a slow stop.
In the past, train operators were taught to enter a station 'aggressively', pulling a full service brake at the C/Rs boards and easing off just as the train comes to a stop. Than mode of operation is no longer taugt as a rule. Hence you'll find it on the lines with more senior operators.
Intuitively, heavy braking means more passenger discomfort and more wear on brakes and motors. More maintenance expense, more hours in the shop. Higher speed operations are good, but accel/decel should be smooth and efficient. I'd just as soon see the old practice ditched. Want a thrill ride? Go to a theme park.
Intuitively, heavy braking means more passenger discomfort and more wear on brakes and motors. More maintenance expense, more hours in the shop. Higher speed operations are good, but accel/decel should be smooth and efficient. I'd just as soon see the old practice ditched. Want a thrill ride? Go to a theme park.
Braking rate directly affects the maximum tph, length of trip and amount of cars required to perform the same service. Consider the following: a train going 30 mph requires 15 seconds to stop with a slow braking rate of 2 mph/sec and only 9 seconds with a 3.5 mph/sec braking rate - a service level rate commonly used elsewhere. Combine this with similar acceleration rates. The amount of time consumed for entering and leaving a station 30 seconds for the slow rates and 18 seconds faster rates and a net savings of 12 seconds at each station.
These 12 seconds are enough to bring track capacity down from 40 tph (90 second headways) to 35 tph (102 second headways). Suppose there are 20 stations for a line. These 12 seconds seconds represent an additional 4 minutes in travel time each way or 8 minutes round trip. Providing 30 tph service requires an additional 4 trainsets on this line to maintain existing service levels. That's a capital cost of around $60 million plus associated maintenance costs for the additional equipment. These costs should more than offset any of the supposed savings by any proposed go slow policy.
Tests have been done to see what are comfortable acceleration and braking rates within a mass transit context. These numbers are around 4.5 mph/sec provided such rates are uniform. It is very unlikely that such performance could be confused with an amusement park ride.
"Braking rate directly affects the maximum tph, length of trip and amount of cars required to perform the same service. Consider the following: a train going 30 mph requires 15 seconds to stop with a slow braking rate of 2 mph/sec and only 9 seconds with a 3.5 mph/sec braking rate - a service level rate commonly used elsewhere. Combine this with similar acceleration rates. The amount of time consumed for entering and leaving a station 30 seconds for the slow rates and 18 seconds faster rates and a net savings of 12 seconds at each station."
No argument from me. I'll grant you that the trip does take a little longer when trains do that.
"Providing 30 tph service requires an additional 4 trainsets on this line to maintain existing service levels. That's a capital cost of around $60 million plus associated maintenance costs for the additional equipment. These costs should more than offset any of the supposed savings by any proposed go slow policy."
How many MTA maintence people would agree with you? Yes, providing 30 tph at slightly slower accel/decel rates will cost more. But whether or not that eats up maintenance costs depends on how much faster the trains wear out from "go fast, stop fast" policy. I would be interested to know, say, how the manager of Coney Island shop would respond to that post. I'm not saying you're wrong - only that you rely on an assumption which you have not yet supported with data (when have you done that before?).
Your analysis and computation is always concise, easy to understand and elegant. People who are good at collecting and recording data should always have somebody like you around to crunch numbers.
Just as a reference for this debate, back in the days of older cars, when this was just the way the railroad ran, the cars were built to handle "wrap it and dump it" ... that's why folks who remember the railroad and have obviously returned dismay at "what the phark?" when the do the slow-rides today. I'm sure timetables have deteriorated since the earlier cars. Anyone do stats on that long a time period of say, 205th/Bainbridge to Brighton Beach or say, Coney? Betcha it's eroded badly with the newer cars.
Back in those days, the cars could TAKE it ... and that's the way the railroad ran ... a silly thing called "RAPID transit" ... sounds to me as though once again, as has been so aptly demonstrated the past 30 years, "progress does NOT mean 'improvement'" ... it all suggests that the modern toys need to be "pampered" ... izzit really tr00?
The redbirds are dead because of what kills 50's throught now American cars ... body rot ... once the metal flakes off, anyone who's ever owned a piece of mielda ragtop can tell ya ... one day you hit the brakes, and the chassis is back there while you and the seats dive under a gas truck ... the 'birds are there. Hell, those farkers were rusted out back in the 70's in the cabs ...
Yo! Raise hands ... any of you TO's looking at retirement soon ever notice the scales and rot in the cab of the redbirds in the 70's much less NOW? I hated those things when they came ON the railroad, replacing my nice "coppertop" LoV's and Gibbers on the Broadway Local and once again on Webster Avenue in da Bronx ... the LoV's had soul. The redbirds were "Wagner's waggin's" to us ...
So for those of you in the 142/27 warz, rest assured ... some of us throught the same thing when the 27's and 33's replaced "real" subway cars ... heh. Whazzold iz Newkirk again ... and Bender don't wanna stop there.
Long night, many beers ... day arf. Yay!
But whether or not that eats up maintenance costs depends on how much faster the trains wear out from "go fast, stop fast" policy. ...I would be interested to know, say, how the manager of Coney Island shop would respond to that post.
Braking and acceleration within the design limits of the equipment is probably a poor example to prove your point. Most of the braking (above 7 mph) will be done by dynamic brakes not the air brakes. As such, there are very few parts to wear out.
This does mean that a burned out motor becomes a safety issue and would cause more cars to be scratched from the active list. A higher maintenance standard might ruffle a shop manager's feathers a little.
"Braking and acceleration within the design limits of the equipment is probably a poor example to prove your point. Most of the braking (above 7 mph) will be done by dynamic brakes not the air brakes. As such, there are very few parts to wear out."
Are design limits that you talk about "normal use" limits or safety limits? You can operate machinery within design limits but not operate it optimally, and thus wear it out sooner.
My understanding is that air brakes are applied below 10 mph. With new trains that may have changed, of course.
"This does mean that a burned out motor becomes a safety issue and would cause more cars to be scratched from the active list. A higher maintenance standard might ruffle a shop manager's feathers a little."
And how often would you like to replace the motors? ($$$)
Are design limits that you talk about "normal use" limits or safety limits? You can operate machinery within design limits but not operate it optimally, and thus wear it out
sooner.
Service level braking rates of around 3.5 mph/sec are common. We are not talking about emergency rates.
My understanding is that air brakes are applied below 10 mph.
That means that the bulk of the braking (30 mph to 7.5 mph) is done exclusively by the dynamic brakes, which do not have parts that wear out.
And how often would you like to replace the motors? ($$$)
Motors are not designed to burn out and should last indefinitely with proper maintenance. I would assume that such maintenance would include proper lubrication, cleaning and brush replacement. It is not a normal replacement part, like an oil filter on a car. Most motors can be rebuilt.
Motors burn out because of abnormal use, frequently as the result of contamination. I would repair them as soon as a single motor in a car were discovered.
I do not know what the present policy is. I can only surmise that cars with dead motors are routinely placed into service. I base this on the observations that have been posted on site.
One is particularly amusing. If there are dead motors the remaining motors will draw more current. There is a breaker that should trip to prevent the remaining motors from burning out. The TA has had to add additional circuitry to prevent this breaker from being continually and routinely reset, while trains are in service. :-)
"I do not know what the present policy is. I can only surmise that cars with dead motors are routinely placed into service. I base this on the observations that have been posted on site. "
It is interesting (and relevant to this thread) that (if I read Bombardier's literature correctly) the R-142 "B" cars will have only two traction motors each, while the "A" (cab control) cars have four each.
Are design limits that you talk about "normal use" limits or safety limits? You can operate machinery within design limits but not operate it optimally, and thus wear it out sooner.
Service level braking rates of around 3.5 mph/sec are common. We are not talking about emergency rates.
Full service braking rate at NYCT is 3.0 mph/sec with dynamic braking active. Emergency braking rate is 3.2 mph/sec with no dynamic braking.
By "common", I meant outside the sheltered confines of the NYCT.
Of course, equipment with such modest service braking rates have been used, e.g. Bluebirds and Multis, but NYCT has preferred a go slow policy. :-)
What you actually meant was you didn't have correct data to analyze.
Your math, as usual, is great. But just as they say about computers: Garbage in - garbage out.
What you actually meant was you didn't have correct data to analyze.
Not at all. The question that I see is whether or not 3.5 mph/sec is used as a service braking rate. The problem if finding a reference that you could easily verify. I could not, for example, cite the articles that appeared in various journals in the 1930's when the Multi's came on board. I have read some of these, many years ago. I'm afraid that you will have to settle for what is out on the web. The best site is the "light" rail car specs performance page. I use the qualifier "light" advisedly because the weight per linear foot of most of these vehicles exceeds that of most heavy rail cars. I think that if you review these specs, as I did before making my statement, you will conclude that much rolling stock in common use does indeed have service braking rates in the 3.5 mph/sec range; they just stopped before the got onto NYCT property. :-)
"I could not, for example, cite the articles that appeared in various journals in the 1930's when the Multi's came on board. I have read some of these, many years ago. I'm afraid that you will have to settle for what is out on the web."
Instead of a nonsensical cop-out like that, how about consulting the manufacturers?
Neither Pullman-Standard nor Budd are in the passenger railcar business anymore, but there are still plenty of people around who can give you good data. And if you inquire of Bombardier, they'll roll the welcome mat out for you.
"I could not, for example, cite the articles that appeared in various journals in the 1930's when the Multi's came on board. I have read some of these, many years ago. I'm
afraid that you will have to settle for what is out on the web."
Instead of a nonsensical cop-out like that, how about consulting the manufacturers?
Neither Pullman-Standard nor Budd are in the passenger railcar business anymore,
The Multi's were built by Pullman and St Louis Car - neither is in the passenger railcar business.
...there are still plenty of people around who can give you good data.
I did get good data from reading the 1936 issues of Transit Journal. You don't accept my data because you cannot verify it, which is a reasonable objection.
And if you inquire of Bombardier, they'll roll the welcome mat out for you.
Bombardier does not publish the braking rates of their rolling stock products on their web site. I believe that any private inquiries should raise the same objections regarding the ability for independent verification. Again, the problem is not in finding the data, it is finding data that anyone can verify because it is publicly available on the web.
Now perhaps you would feel better, if I recalculated the braking times on the basis of the present service braking rate as opposed to what is common elsewhere.
At a service rate of 3.0 mph/sec a train travelling at 30 mph will stop in 10 seconds and will travel 220 feet. Its time in the 600' station would have been spent traveling 380' in 9 seconds at 30 mph from entering the station and then braking. The total time spent by the train in the station for this heavy braking scenerio would be 19 seconds.
If the brakes were applied gently and uniformly for the entire platform length of 600' then the same stop from 30 mph would have taken 27 seconds. The net savings for hard braking would be 8 seconds.
Most routes have between 35-45 stations. They range from a high of 61 (A) to a low of 21 (#7). Assuming 40 stations this translates to a loss of more than 5 minutes each way. Assuming round trips and 2 minute headways, my previous estimate appears to be conservative as to the economic consequences for such gentle stops.
"Neither Pullman-Standard nor Budd are in the passenger railcar business anymore," (Ron's quote)
The Multi's were built by Pullman and St Louis Car - neither is in the passenger railcar business."
Good data is available on all kinds of newer trains too. If you dig intelligently, you can get relevant facts on the R-46 cars, for example.
"Bombardier does not publish the braking rates of their rolling stock products on their web site. I believe that any private inquiries should raise the same objections regarding the ability for independent verification. Again, the problem is not in finding the data, it is finding data that anyone can verify because it is publicly available on the web."
That's because you haven't tried. Years ago I led a team of designers in putting together an air combat simulator. I contacted Dassault and asked them for anything they ccould give me regarding Mirage aircraft. They damn near invited me to tour the plant!
I don't question your math, Stephen. It's fine. But you either don't know how to collect data, or figure it's a waste of time because you have a particular point of view and don't want to use any data which might get in the way of that. It tends to wreck your credibility.
Ya know, you two could have agreat thing going if you stopped picking on one another. Ron, if you are so sure that the info can be found, go find it, then give it to Stephen and let him crunch it. Personally, it doesn't make that much of a difference which of you happens to be right - the arguement is what is so much fun.
At a service rate of 3.0 mph/sec a train travelling at 30 mph will stop in 10 seconds and will travel 220 feet. Its time in the 600' station would have been spent traveling 380' in 9 seconds at 30 mph from entering the station and then braking. The total time spent by the train in the station for this heavy braking scenerio would be 19 seconds.
If the brakes were applied gently and uniformly for the entire platform length of 600' then the same stop from 30 mph would have taken 27 seconds. The net savings for hard braking would be 8 seconds.
Stephen, please keep in mind one thing: just because something is said to be true does not mean it really is. While I hate to argue with the laws of physics, I am fairly sure that if I take a full service brake 220 feet before the 10 car marker, what will probably happen is that I will be taken out of service and sent downtown to explain the cars out of the station. Taking a full service brake leaves me with absolutely no room to play should something not work as designed. On the other hand, I don't think anyone takes a mini brake upon entering the station and holds it all the way to a stop, since the train will be crawling the last 100 feet or so.
Braking a train is not a science - it is an art. Sometimes, opposite ends of the same train will brake differently; sometimes that 30 lbs will stop you a car lenght short of the mark, most times right on it and occasionally beyond it - there needs to be room to adjust. To most people, it doesn't matter about the difference between charging into a station and pulling everything or coming in at a reasonable clip with a gentle brake application: all they want is for the train to stop smoothly instead of lurching and bucking (and you can do that whichever way you choose).
Stephen, please keep in mind one thing: just because something is said to be true does not mean it really is.
It is usually quite instructive to find out why theory and practice diverge.
While I hate to argue with the laws of physics, I am fairly sure that if I take a full service brake 220 feet before the 10 car marker, what will probably happen is that I will be taken out of service and sent downtown to explain the cars out of the station.
From the NTSB investigation of the WB crash. "Full-service Braking - This braking test duplicated the conditions of the previous tests, except that the operator manually put the train in a full-service brake application as the train passed signal J2-128. The train had attained a speed of 33 mph when it reached signal J2-128 and the operator made a full service brake application. The train stopped 125 feet 10 inches short of the the collision point and 162 feet 2 inches from the trip arm near the signal J2-128."
You might be surpised that you have the one train that exceeds braking specification, however I think your's is the more likely scenerio. :-)
On the other hand, I don't think anyone takes a mini brake upon entering the station and holds it all the way to a stop, since the train will be crawling the last 100 feet or so.
The train will be going 5 mph, when it crosses the 100 foot mark. If you go to the downtown platform of the 138th St Station (Lex) between 7 and 9 am on a weekday morning, you will see the #5 doing just that - thanks to the miracle of wheel detectors - only they do it for the 2/3's the platform length.
Braking a train is not a science - it is an art.
It should not be. Closed loop braking is used on other systems without problems.
Sometimes, opposite ends of the same train will brake differently; sometimes that 30 lbs will stop you a car lenght short of the mark, most times right on it and occasionally beyond it - there needs to be room to adjust.
They are not supposed to brake differently. This discrepency is quite possibly due to faulty maintenance - either at the specification level or the implementation level.
To most people, it doesn't matter about the difference between charging into a station and pulling everything or coming in at a reasonable clip with a gentle brake application: all they want is for the train to stop smoothly instead of lurching and bucking (and you can do that whichever way you choose).
There are important differences that is not immediately perceptible to the train's passengers. These differences are the maximum frequency of trains possible on the line and the amount of equipment required to support a certain service level. It can also be of importance to anyone trying maximize one's use of a single fare. Five seconds of additional braking time at each station adds more than 35 minutes the travel time for somebody trying to set a record. :-)
"Ya know, you two could have agreat thing going if you stopped picking on one another. Ron, if you are so sure that the info can be found, go find it, then give it to Stephen and let him crunch it. Personally, it doesn't make that much of a difference which of you happens to be right - the arguement is what is so much fun."
I think Steve's a hell of a bright guy - and more than a bit devious (and that's perfectly OK)! But I'm not into feeding intellectual laziness.
"Braking a train is not a science - it is an art."
I read Steve's response to this. In Japan, AI and fuzzy logic have been used to stop trains evenly and efficiently. Stephen is quite correct when he says that closed loop systems work well. However, it must take the fun out of being an operator (on DC Metrorail, you're an observer, not an operator, unless in manual mode).
I hope we've both entertained you :0)
The conclusion we can draw here is that excessive wear and tear can adversely affect NYCTA's fleet, and perhaps a "go-slow" into the station is not a bad idea.
In Japan, some trains use AI "fuzzy logic" technology to control the brakes for passenger comfort.
Once again, we see Steve Bauman doing some great math - and starting out with the wrong data and the wrong assumptions.
You know what we say about computers, Steve - garbage in - good math - garbage out.
Thanks Alex.
The conclusion we can draw here is that excessive wear and tear can adversely affect NYCTA's fleet, and
perhaps a "go-slow" into the station is not a bad idea.
Who's this "we"? Don't put words into Alex's mouth.
The original thrust of this thread was whether or not operating
NYCT equipment at its design rating, which is full service
braking of 3.0 MPHPS, acceleration of 2.5MPHPS, and top speeds
of 50MPH, causes excessive wear-and-tear. Of course not! That's
what the cars are designed to perform at. It's even in the
procurement contract!
Now, you might think that pampering the equipment by drawing a
lighter brake and generally running slower will make it last
longer. It might have a slight effect, such as longer changeout
cycles on brake shoes, but that really amounts to peanuts per
year. Compare that to the costs of providing extra cars needed
to maintain the same level of service when the scheduled round
trip time goes up 3 or 4 minutes, and then the recurring costs
of inspecting and maintaining those cars.
As for the motors, as long as the equipment under the cars
works correctly, they never draw more current or generate more
dynamic braking voltage than they are designed to withstand.
The primary failure mode is from moisture getting in to the
insulation or other foreign matter.
I've seen that when there's a slow braker "the T/O brakes slowly" that it delays service and trains get stuck behind.
The subway should be as fast as it can be, to maximize service.
I've been a few trains with T/O's in training and the supervisor tells them to apply brake fast, at about 1/4 into the station.
Hmmm, plus with today's equipment, waiting until the middle
of the station to take an application you'll probably stop
7 car lengths beyond the end of the platform!
Heh. Wasn't such a sure thing with solid iron shoes either. :)
And one station immediately comes to mind: 42nd St. southbound. I can just see an A train overshooting the platform big time and winding up with, oh, five or six cars in the tunnel.
And the T/O would be home relaxing the next day.
Another reason I can't stand the Hippos (R68's) they have to apply brakes way before the other trains.
Whenever I'm on a southbound B or D for example going into W4th, the T/O usually applies brakes before the station. When I'm on a slant R40 Q, they usually brake 1/3 of the way into the station.
The R44's and R46's can stop pretty quickly.
It's mainly those Hippos that have slow braking. Hippos are hard to get moving, and those beasts are hard to stop.
I don't know where you came up with that but I come into W4 on three and start braking when I see station light. Its possible the newer personel are afraid of the train, with the school car paranoia set in. I work the hippos 5 days and except for the overall lousy top end acceleration rates, can still get from A to B. BTW, there is no way a slant can start braking from 50 MPH to 0 200 feet into that station without a trip for the drug test after.
Not to mention needing to scrape the geese off the storm doors. :)
Yeah, that reminds me I almost forgot, that R38 I had the other day was going so fast on the A Rockaway flats gulls and birds had alot of trouble getting out of the way!
Sounds like my R-10 rocket ride of July 1969. That train took off once it cleared the bridge as though it had been shot from a cannon.
BTW, there is no way a slant can start braking from 50 MPH to 0
200 feet into that station without a trip for the drug test after.
Also no way that an R68 is doing 50!
They probably could with the final field shunt step restored.
We regularly got them to 55 coming into W4 before the field shunt mods. BTW, I had 2900 a week back which I did manage 48 and it did seem closer to 50. It depends on the train, passenger loading and the start from the gate. Most of the top end speed is acheived before 23 Street so if there are slow releasing brakes or a dead motor, you won't come close.
I'm just curious about what the expected peak-hour levels of service will be on the "E", "F", "R" and "V" lines (trains per hour) after the August service change that moves the "F" through the 63rd St tunnel, skipping QP, sends the "V" through 53rd Street, and stubs the "G" at Court Square?
BTW, I still think they should run the "G" southbound all the way to CI, and make it the new "CULVER LINE", so it will have a train yard at one of its terminus points, and end the "F" at Church Ave. Shortening the "F" will free up some much-needed cars for more "V" and "E" trains. But Culver riders will HATE having to transfer at Church or Smith-9th to get 6th Ave line access on their way to work.
I humbly invite any interested Strap-hanger to ride a northbound "E" train from 34th-Penn Station to 23rd-Ely Ave between 8:15 and 9:15AM, or a southbound "E" from 53rd-Lex to 34th-Penn Station between 4:45 and 5:45PM, and then come back here and tell us all what the average load factor per car is. MTA- ARE YOU READING THIS???
"The G should run to CI"
Actually, the V should, and the G should stay the way it is, that is, if they had the cars for either. Which would you rather have: an F express, V local, or an F express, G local. Manhattan access for local stops with the V.
Expresses should always go to the end of the line so that people farthest away from the city get there somewhat quicker than normally. If F runs express, it should go to CI. Terminate the local at Kings Highway (peak) or Church, as appropriate. One key counter-example: except for a short time after 1967, the Brighton Express didn't go to CI. Never understood the philosophy behind that.
Logically speaking - Brighton Express to Brighton Beach makes perfect sense but of course you are correct from a customer service standpoint. The D from Stillwell should go express from brighton beach and the Q run the local route.
One key counter-example: except for a short time after 1967, the Brighton Express didn't go to CI. Never understood the philosophy behind that.
WHen implemented in 1967, there were too many switching delays into and out of Brighton Beach with the QB/QJ locals terminating at Brighton Beach and D trains switching to head to Stillwell Ave. This caused the TA to change the terminals to eliminate the switching delays in 1968.
--Mark
Thank you for the explanation.
Well, today, there is one local, one express. I believe that today the local could turn at Brighton Beach. Even if it wasn't efficient, they were able to turn 2 trains, why can't they turn one today, with efficiency?
I'm just curious about what the expected peak-hour levels of service will be on the "E", "F", "R" and "V" lines (trains per hour) after the August service change that moves the "F" through the 63rd St tunnel, skipping QP, sends the "V" through 53rd Street, and stubs the "G" at Court Square?
Here are the figures I've seen.
E - 13 tph - no change
F - 14 tph - no change
R - 10 tph - down from 12 tph
V - 10 tph
Two observations: the tph at Lex will be reduced from 27 tph to 23 tph; the unequal headways between the E, F and V means there will be delays with the E/V merge at Queens Plaza and the F/V merge at 50th St.
Stephen, my undestanding is that the normal route will be T-2 to D-2 track meaning that the V will run local from 36th St. to Continental Ave - hence, no merge with the E at Queens Plaza. As for the 50th question, I'd say that some congestion is always possible any time tracks merge. Not having my trackplan book handy, I can't say doe sure but I'm fairly certain that trains coming from 63rd St. on T-1 track (becomes B-5) can either proceed down B-1 or B-3 to 34th Street. Hence with that flexibility, congestion can be minimized.
Stephen, my undestanding is that the normal route will be T-2 to D-2 track meaning that the V will run local from 36th St. to Continental Ave - hence, no merge with the E at Queens Plaza.
I assume that the E and V will still be sharing the 53rd St tunnel, so there will a merge between these two services. There will still be a guaranteed delay due to the unequal service levels. Whether this delay will occur at 36th St, entering Queens Plaza does not alter that fact.
As for the 50th question, I'd say that some congestion is always possible any time tracks merge. Not having my trackplan book handy, I can't say doe sure but I'm fairly certain that trains coming from 63rd St. on T-1 track (becomes B-5) can either proceed down B-1 or B-3 to 34th Street.
I think with both the B and D running on the express track and both terminating at 34th, it is most likely that the V and F will merge north of 50th.
Stephen, My apologies. Of course you are correct. I flipped the V and F services. I can't get used to the current plan.
Is it fair to assume that the G cutback is due to the shortage of cars, not the shortage of track capacity?
At the risk of sounding evasive, yes and no. Clearly, once the manhattan Bridge flip service begins and V service is commenced, the B division will be tight for cars until the R-143s come on line. One indication is that the Jamaica fleet, the base for the E,F, R and V lines, will have their spare factor reduced by 17%. Other B division maintenance shops will suffer a similar fate.
At the same time, the 63rd St. connection was built to reduce congestion through the Queens Plaza bottleneck while increasing capacity along the QB corridor. As I've stated in previous posts, I don't think that cutting the G line while adding another line was the best solution.
One indication is that the Jamaica fleet, the base for the E,F, R and V lines, will have their spare factor reduced by 17%.
Do you mean reduced to 17%? If not, what is the current spare factor for the Jamaica fleet?
No! I meant that the current spare factor(x) would be reduced by 17% from its current level.
You know, I've come to respect you over these past few um, hours. At first glance, you seem like an old stubborned tight ass, but upon close examination, you're just a big softy who acts like that. Judging by your cushy job, it's paid off very well. I'm glad you're helping those trainees with their math and I wish you the best. I also hope you and Seven can come to get along. I applaud the fact that you're not as hard on him as you were earlier. Also, I can understand your point of view better now that I know you're an MTA suit. My understanding is that you're a fleet manager. Is it a division like the IRT or BMT, or just a random set of cars? Anyway, I hope to have a cushy job and material possesions like those when I'm older, but for my good job and good luck. Aplogies for all the spats in the past. Sometimes I react before I think. Hopefully we can get along better as well.
Regards,
Jason
Jason, thank you for the kind words. Yes I do care about my employees but don't get the wrong impression about me. When need be, I can put pen to paper (now toner to paper) and will take appropriate disciplinary action when required. Fortunately - as the reputation grows, the need to use the stick deminishes. Good luck to you too.
The Train Dude is responsible for the care & feeding of the Hippos (R-68s) that reside in the Bronx. Sometimes he needs a whip as well as a big stip to keep them under control < G >
Mr t
He has also overseen the TLC bestowed on the R-46s in Jamaica Yard.
[He has also overseen the TLC bestowed on the R-46s (Rino's) in Jamaica Yard.]
He does seem to favor the biggest of the bunch !
Mr t__:^)
One could very well suggest he(Train Dude)tends to the Rubenesque in rolling stock. That is, if the choice is his to make.
If the choice is made by others, then one or more others beleive he does well and enjoyes the charms of the Rubenesque.
So if all goes as it seems, he is going from the younger Rubenesque to the middle aged Rubenesque.
Would envy be proper here?
avid
Hey Steve is there truth to the rumor that you're gonna move to my neck of the woods (207th ST) No disrespect in my calling you Steve...I'm used to seeing that as your original SubTalk handle
Well, let me ask you a question since I don't know who you are. Would that please you or not?
When I started at the TA, they used to say it was a paper Railroad. Actually it runs on rumors. Besides, I never believe anything until I hear it from a cleaner.
I wouldn't say that it'll please me, but based on what I've read on this site and seen on my rare visits to NYC (I'm in VA now in your US Navy) It'll probably make riding the A-train the enjoyable experience I had when I was a young railran on those R-10's and slants doing "warp" speed along CPW...But I do have one legitimate question you can more than likely answer...When a train comes in for periodic cleaning, are athe components under the cars cleaned/dusted out as well?
More appropriately, it's the other way around. When the train comes in for its periodic inspection, undercar components are wiped down as part of the inspection. After inspection, cars undergo level I (heavy interior) cleaning referred to as renovation.
I've posted my New Orleans trip report and some photographs on my homepage.
The St. Charles Streetcar
Nice, Pete... thanks for sharing. I may just have to get down there sometime... wish I could afford the time to ride the train when I go to Arizona to see my grandchildren, I could arrange it with a New Orleans stopover one direction. But given the constraints of time I have to fly. Oh well, at least I'll be on the Grand Canyon Railway this Friday :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mouse,
Have fun on the Grand Canyon.
On the way back to the airport, we passed the train station, which is right by the Superdome, and I couuld see the platform clearly from I-10. Just so happens the American Orient Express consist was in town. If I'd known earlier, I would have tried to get down there. Oh well, win some, lose some.
By the way, has anyone heard when revenue service might begin on Canal Street? Also, what of the restoration of the Desire Street line and the long-term airport light rail project?
Mark
The carbarn superintendent said the Canal service would begin in 2003. I don't recall a definite date for Desire service, and I heard nothing of the airport light rail project. Hope it all comes about, though. :O)
Great Story Pete, kinda inspired me to put some more time in on 850 at BERA....opps that is not a Subway car Gads...
[Great Story Pete, kinda inspired me to put some more time in on 850 at BERA.]
Had the same thoughts myself ... very nice shots.
I can't wait for 850 to be finished so I can take her to Desire, well at least that's what the route sign will say.
Mr t__:^)
IIRC they kept that Streetcar Named Desire on display just behind the old New Oeleans Mint. The track rails where the car was kept were there when I visited New Orleans in 1994, but the car wasn't.
I took the Riverfront streetcar to the end of the line near the mint. I may have seen those same rails. They were fenced off, and a wooden passenger coach was occupying them. I can't remember the name of the railroad. I tried to take a photo, but just before my Riverfront "expedition," the winder and mirror mechanism on my camera died. (I tried everything, but it's just plain broken!) I attempted to substitute my point-and-shoot, but it was acting up too. Two out of the five rolls of film I shot came to nothing. Needless to say, I was thoroughly bummed. That's why I had to narrow my subject to the St. Charles Line.
I took the Riverfront streetcar to the end of the line near the mint. I may have seen those same rails. They were fenced off, and a wooden passenger coach was occupying them. I can't remember the name of the railroad.
That's Gulf Mobile & Ohio #50, owned by Dan Ackroyd. At least, that car was there in August, 1999.
Excellent trip report!
But the shots that you did get off were excelent. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the Curator at Branford didn't use some of them to get the colors on his car right.
BTW, Sea Shore in ME has one too (#966) that's in operating condition.
Mr t__:^)
Only question in your most excellent trip report is how you could have seen the ex-Melbourne cars in Carrollton Carhouse, as they, being standard guage and unusable after the conversion of Riverfront to the "standard gauge" of St. Charles (5' 2 1/4") they were sold to Memphis for use there.
The literature I got at the carhouse, dated 1994, mentions that a total of 3 Melbourne cars had been adapted for use on the line, but that Perley Thomas cars also operate there. The discussion of the Melbourne cars alludes to center doors being rehabbed for handicapped use. I thought I saw these wheelchair lifts in the Riverfront cars, so I assumed I was on a Melbourne car. But upon looking at the diagrams, I think I may have been on a modified Perley T. The sale to Memphis may have happened after the printing date.
Speaking of gauges, I saw 2 ex-SEPTA PCC trucks in storage on one of the tracks in the carhouse. It was then that Elmer, the superintendent, informed me that New Orleans uses the same gauge as Philadelphia.
I just looked on The official RTA website, which does mention that the Melbourne "cars are no longer in use." Five new Perley Thomas style cars were constructed by the craftsmen at the Carrollton shops in 1997. I was one of these that I rode.
Excellent pictures & writeup, though I'm very sorry to hear about your camera. Those reproduction Perley Thomases are gorgeous; you think Carrollton shop would be interested in cranking out some new Lo-Vs for 2004 ;)?
The Greenberg Train Show will be held for two days at Stony Brook University sports complex at Stony Brook, (LI) New York.
Show will be held Saturday, March 24th 11:00am - 5:00pm and Sunday, March 25th 11:00am - 4:00pm.
Admission.....$6 adults, $2 children ages 6-12. Scouts in uniform admitted free. Admission good for both days.
.....Exciting train layouts & displays
.....How-to clinics
.....Super hobby market
For directions call (516) 632-7000
or visit www.greenbergshows.com
Does that mean you're going to be there, Bill? Wil you be selling?
I think the area code is now 631.
If this Greenberg show is as exciting as the one at Raritan Center this past weekend... enjoy the snooze. Our N scale club sets up there regularly, so it's great for that, but if I didn't get in for free I probably wouldn't bother any more. There are far too many toys - 1:43 scale stuff, Beanie Babies, used GI Joe and Barbie stuff - and not enough trains any more - especially N scale.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I went to a few Greenberg shows when my daughter was into Beanie Babies, so we killed two birds with one stone, so to speak. But there's almost no traction. Sometimes some good book sellers and some paper goods (like timetables) but not too much.
On page A19 of today's New York Times is another "what's faster?" race -- this time between the air shuttle, Acela Express, and private auto -- between Washington, DC and NYC. Yeah, the plane wins by 26 minutes (but it cost $67 more); the weather was good, and there were no air traffic delays. But the contestant took a cab from LaGuardia to the N Train to reach the finish line at City Hall! And the Acela Express contestant changed at Penn Station for a "rusty, reliable Redbird on the #2."
The Acela Express contestant should have gotten off at Newark and taken PATH. Saves money and also about 15-20 minutes. Wouldn't have made the difference this time, though.
CG
Web address of article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/13/nyregion/13RACE.html?pagewanted=all
free registration required, or change the "www" to "partners" to cheat
Taking the N is cheating. I don't think it would have mattered though. Also, the weather changes things.
Why do you think taking the N train was cheating? The contestant used the subway at the Washington end to reach the airport. It demonstrates the superiority of the subway over being stalled in traffic on surface streets.
And who would ever take the orange to yellow from McPherson to the Airport? Why not just take blue?
Might be these people where trying to find the New CAF Subway cars.
Dominick Bermudez.
(But the contestant took a cab from LaGuardia to the N Train to reach the finish line at City Hall!)
I used that trick on my last trip to LaGuardia. The cab driver was not happy, but I didn't want to pay him to sit in traffic for an hour.
Here's how to make the taxi driver at LaGuardia happy. Before you leave the curb, tell him/her to ask the dispatcher for a "short ride" chit. That allows him to get back into the front of the queue at the airport. Short ride chits are given out for fares to Astoria, Flushing, Jackson Heights, etc.
If you tell her/him after (s)he leaves the curb where the dispatcher is, you bet (s)he'll be angry!
The one took the Airplane took a cab to the N Train. Could that person just took the M60 to the N Train. End up with a nice looking
R-40 Slant's. And the person that took the Acela got off at Penn Station and took the #2 Train and end up with a Shiny,Clean,Brand new R-142 subway cars.
Dominick Bermudez.
Returning from New Orleans late Saturday afternoon, we walked out to find no cabs at the US Airways terminal but the M60 pulling up. We whipped out our Metrocards and hoisted our 2 small suitcases and 2 backpacks onto the nearly empty bus and transferred to the 'N' at Astoria Blvd. Then it was 2 stops and a short walk home. Maybe not as fast as a cab would've been, but definitely cheaper, especially with the free transfer, and that time there was no waiting. We even managed some exercise! Probably would recommend a cab at rush hour, though, if you have luggage.
Story from CNN about a hybrid electric car/personal rapid transit that enters and exits monorails and links up to form trains, or drives like a car on streets.
As soon as someone gets hooked into a train behind someone mentally ill, they will hate it.
My hunch it will be extremely expensive to operate and maintain.
I apologize for being a skeptic without first knowing a lot about this, but the "elevated automated guideway" appears to be as efficient as either a limited-access expressway with a single lane, or a light-rail line with a maximum capacity of 4 passengers per car.
An example of the dangers of trying to be all things to all commuters, perhaps. Maybe we'll see it on a website like this someday.
13 Vehicles That Went Nowhere
Mark
I'm not saying I necessarily advocate it; I'm just bringing forth fresh ideass, which are always good.
I wish to tell everyone today that today Tuesday March 13th 2001 is my 38th birthday. Hooray!!
BMTJeff
Let me be the first here to wish you a Happy B'day, Jeff
Belated happy birthday Jeff. Hope you have 60 more. I owe you a call. I'll get in touch with you hopefully tonight. Have a great day.
Thank you very much for wishing me a happy birthday. I hope to be in touch with you soon.
May the Sea Beach express live on in our imagination.
BMTJeff
Happy Birthday Jeff.
Wow, another March birthday. Mine was yesterday (I wonder if it's a coincidence that my birth date is the same as downtown Chicago's area code of 312?) I celebrated by working late and getting bitched at by my boss all day, washing my dishes, and then heating up some mac and cheese for dinner.
Unfortunately, my celebrations were dampered when I got news from North Carolina that my father was cancer again. He had it and beat it about 15 years ago, but it looks like it has come back for an encore performance. Luckily he seems to have a form of cancer that tends to be very responsive to treatment, but they're still doing all sorts of tests and biopsies to find out for sure.
In the meantime, your thoughts and prayers are appreciated.
Thanks,
-- David
Chicago, IL
Happy happy, guy! The beatings shall now commence ... heh.
My wife shares the same birthday as you. So Happy Birthday to BMT Jeff and Mrs. Bill from Maspeth!
BMT JEff: Well, Happy Birthday ! Wish you mny more years of luck.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Thank you very much "turnstiles"
BMTJeff
Sorry I'm late, but happy be-lated birthday Jeff.
Thank you very much for wishing me a happy birthday.
BMTJeff
Time to cue up that Beatles tune.
There is an elevated structure over Bronx Park Ave. in the Bronx which I believe was once part of the New York Westchester and Boston railroad. I saw it on Sunday March 11th when I was driving around in the Bronx. It appears that it went towards what is now the Dyre Ave. line of the IRT. Please tell me if I'm correct in this statement.
BMTJeff
You must mean Bronxdale Ave. (Which runs east/west). The elevated structure is just an overpass(which runs north/south. This overpass is just east of the #2 White Plains Road Branch.
Yes, you are correct, it belongs to the #5 Dyre Ave. Line.
The elevated structure that I'm talking about runs north/south over Bronx Park Avenue not Bronxdale Avenue and I believe that is was part of the long defunct New York Westchester & Boston railroad.
BMTJeff
Sorry about that, Jeff. The area you are talking about is below the old E. 180 Street of the Westchester R.R.. Yes you are correct.
Did you know there are Kinki Sharyo cars on HBLR & on the dart (dallas area rapid transit).
WHEN did Hudson-Bergen Light Rail get Kinki cars??? And how many?
BMTman
They've had them since the beginning.
Peace,
ANDEE
Right, Andee. I forgot (just the new generation of cars on the HBLR look SO different than the old Kinki Light Rail cars I've seen up in Boston).
So why was this fact brought up in the first place....????
>>>So why was this fact brought up in the first place....???? <<<
Dunno, ask Ry transit.
Peace,
ANDEE
THIS POST WAS BROGHT UP BECAUSE YOU ARE SO DUMB THAT YOU DON'T KNOW THE MANUFACTUER OF A TRAIN CAR OR A LIGHT RAIL VHEICAL! So when you railfan Any singal transit system ask the motorman "who is the manufactuer of this train" Or check the back or the front of the car and look for the manufactuer.
You are an idiot. Some people don't give a shit who manufactured a car.
Just like I don't give a shit about you.
Now Pork, I'll grant you that Ry's message was neither civil, nor kind - but do you think you responded in the best way you could have?
Yes I could have.
But I summed it up in my second statement. I don't need to waste my time dealing with it.
I think he responded to it perfectly.
Peace,
ANDEE
LETS FORGET ABOUT IT!
I fully know who manufactured the cars on the the HBLR and resent you calling me dumb. Read back on the post my freind. AND learn how to spell!
Peace,
ANDEE
I SAID SHUT UP NOW SHUT OP
lol
I often hear announcements on the LIRR trains heading to Flatbush Avenue. They go something like "Attention to the Brakeman, meet the crew at the booth," which is followed by another voice saying "Roger."
What does a Brakeman do on a train? I thought the engineer controls the braking. It sounds like an antiquated term for a job that doesn't exist anymore, but I don't know what it is.
Does anyone know?
Do they possibly mean the person who conducts the brake test on trains when they start a new run?
The Federal Railway Administration mandates that the brakes be tested with the engineer in the front cab and the brake inspector in the rear to verify that there is proper pressure and that the brakes apply in emergency condition.
The last time there was an operating crew title of "brakeman" was when the full crew laws required three persons in a diesel engine -- the engineer, the fireman, and the front brakeman! Talk about featherbedding.
Today, most of the traditional railroad titles now have very ambiguous duties. Back in the day, the head end brakeman's (usually there was only one) job was to observe the train for hotboxes and other defects and help the crew with head end switching duties. In the days of train orders, no radios, no defect detectors, less than relyable equipment and friction barings you really did need a 5 man crew. The engineer drove, the Fireman shovled coal or kept the first generation diesels running, the brakeman observed for defects, ran brake tests and helped with switching, the flagman in the back read train orders, observed defects from the rear and procted the rear of the train and the Conductor managed the manifest, switching duties, the timetable etc.
The 5 person crew went away just about when technology made their jobs redundant (c. 1982).
Anyway today, as was pointed out, the brakeman's job would be to preform a brake test, help with coupling/uncoupling and operation of HO switches. Brakemen can also be called car inspectors or trainmen.
I was a brakeman for Burlington Northern 78-87 and part time conductor as I had taken the promotion but of course it took seniority to hold as a conductor regularly. You are quite well versed in the brakeman"s duties with the exception of one thing. We were never car inspectors. That was a carman who did that. Making a "train inspection" when walking it for example was one thing, if you saw something obvious, but we were not trained in all the fine points that a carman had to know. Luckily or they have had us replacing carmen. The brake tests we were qualified to do basically see that they apply and release and no excess piston travel which chould in effect make that brake worth nothing.
We"d also hook up air hoses and at times fulfill the duty where the name came from originally..operate handbrakes to secure cars we set out or catch moving cars while switching [as I said last week if you must slip into freight yards there are cars moving by themselves]or release them.
There were no flagman by name on BN. The brakemen were the flagmen if such was necessary which luckily wasn't in most of the territory I worked. We had a head brakeman and rear brakeman.
Where did the name brakeman come from...before their were air brakes the brakemen had to walk the car rooves and apply hand brakes whenthe engineer whistled for brakes. The head man and rear man would walk toward each othert to apply brakes by hand. In all kinds of weather, ice, snow...and a lot of men died. Imagine being on the icy roof of a boxcar while the train is rocking and rolling. Thank heavens for improvements and unions. These guys had little beyond a paycheck.
But that's what a brakeman was originally, an antiquated title now.
On most mainline freights that I know of, cabooseless, there are only an engineer and conductor now, and the conductor has most of what had been the brakeman"s duties. On Montana Rail Link we had 2 engineers instead..so the engineer or assistant would share the running and share the "ground work" if any was to be done, assuming the first engineer wasn't a prima donna who wouldn't leave the cab.
Here in the east there were sometimes both a head and rear end brakeman, but it was usually a brakeman in front and a flagman in the rear. The flagman was responsible for train orders because it used to be in the job description that the flagman had to be able to read. I would think that in places like Montant with miles of unsignaled lines you'd need a flagman to protect the train.
Also, the PRR designed many of its freight tenders with a little doghouse for the brakeman where he could observe the train for defects.
In Montana nearly all the main lines were in fact signalled. The branches had other forms of protection such as absolute block (by registering in and out) or train orders [now track warrants], yard limits where switching was done, or even designating a line as industrial track which stinks because the speed limit can be track speed depending on conditions but you're otherwise on your own and then have to answer why you "went dead" and "ran out of time" because you weren't doing allowable speed. But if there"s a collision its your baby. Track speed could be 40 but if you took the rules all the way there are curves, etc where you"d have to do 5 or 6 MPH. But back to the brakeman..on BN the brakemen were the flagmen, but not to dispute your post, this was years after the jobdescription you mention for flagmen. Head brakeman protected the front , rear man...the rear. And in all types of territory flagging rules may still apply, flagging distance is in special instructions. Even signalled territoy [system could fail]. The Laurel-Great Falls-Shelby line still dark and the Laurel-Greybull WY stretch too. As there are no cabooses the dispatcher in the track warrants usually specifies that flag protection isn't requires as they authorize warants to move usually with only one train in a territory at a time.
Almost all LIRR trains have a three-person crew--engineer, conductor, brakeman. I don't know all the duties, but essentially they are this:
Traditional duties (as historically on most railroads):
Engineer operates the train. Conductor is responsible for the operation of the train and its crew, including the engineer. Brakeman performs other chores as assigned by the conductor--for example, helping to check the train at the beginning and end of runs, operating manual switches in the yards, and so on.
LIRR specific duties, in addition to above:
Conductor collects tickets and assigns ticket collecting duties to the brakeman and collectors. The brakeman also collects tickets as assigned by the conductor. His/her badge says "Assistant Conductor."
The collectors are an additional category. The rest of the crew (engineer-conductor-brakeman) stays together for the entire work day, but the collectors are assigned to a variety of runs. Example, an evening collector might start at Penn and go as far as Rockville Centre, go back to Jamaica and help out on a train as far as Mineola, return to Brooklyn, etc. etc. Their badges also say "Assistant Conductor."
At Port Washington I saw the brakeman, conductor, and engineer doing the procedure. The brakeman checked the brakes, conductor opened the doors, and the engineer operated the train.
The brakeman was checking brakes in the rear. Well that explains why someone was back there in the last car in the cab when I boarded.
The Brakeman also "lifts transportation" or punches tickets. In the pecking order the postion is lower than conductor equal or maybe even lower than Asst. Conductor.
The Brakeman is an "assitant conductor." In the pecking order he is below the conductor but above a collector.
Who is the one who can move the train (other then the TO) ?
I've seen that other man move the train backwards for example when they overshot the station or something happened to the train just after Jamaica ... no it wasn't the TO via the Key in reverse.
Mr t__:^)
I believe that only certified engineers can move a train (LIRR trains don't have a TO, they have an Engineer), but sometimes a Conductor can also be a qualified engineer. Hostlers can move power around an engine terminal, but I do not know the extent of their jurisdiction. I wouldn't be surprised if non-engineers can move lite trainsets around terminal areas.
See my reply to Thurston.
I guess that might be analogous to a non-licensed person operating a motor vehicle on his/her own driveway - but not taking it anywhere where other people might be.
They use a qualified engineer / conductor on the LIRR West Hempstead shuttle. He pulls the train into Valley Stream from the siding, then the regular engineer takes over for the 15 minute run to West Hempstead while the conductor collects tickets. The brakeman assists in ticket collection of the 2 open car train.
But maybe it's just as Paul said, i.e. the real engineer is at the other end operating in Reverse while the Conductor is talking him thru the move by radio.
Mr t__:^)
Who is the one who can move the train (other then the TO) ?
I've seen that other man move the train backwards for example when they overshot the station or something happened to the train just after Jamaica ... no it wasn't the TO via the Key in reverse.
Unless you're seeing a substitute engineer moving the train, what you're probably seeing is this: The conductor goes to the operating cab at the reverse of the train and instructs the engineer by radio to operate in reverse. The conductor is the engineer's "eyes and ears." The conductor is able to do this by his authority of being in charge of the train. But only an engineer can actually operate the controls to move the train.
I've seen this happen in various situations, including once when a train from Penn started down into Sunnyside Yard. The engineer realized the mistake just before he ran off the third rail limit. The conductor being at the rear end prevented the engineer from having to walk the train twice and screw things up even further.
A member of the crew told me later that the engineer was disciplined despite the fact that the switches and signals were set up by the (Amtrak, I believe) tower. He is expected to know the entire railroad and "should have known" he was incorrectly set up.
Ummm... and just to defend the tradition of railroading, the LIRR doesn't have "TO's." They're still engineers, just like Casey Jones. ;-)
A member of the crew told me later that the engineer was disciplined despite the fact that the switches and signals were set up by the (Amtrak, I believe) tower. He is expected to know the entire railroad and "should have known" he was incorrectly set up.
The route to Sunnyside is controled by HAROLD tower, which is an LIRR owned and operated interlocking plant.
[The conductor goes to the operating cab at the reverse of the train and instructs the engineer by radio to operate in reverse.]
I can believe that, thanks for the clarification.
Mr t__:^)
Before SIR went to 2 man crews (OPTO for some?) they had Brakeman positon. They did not have Asst. Conductor position. The Brakeman also collected fares/tickets on the train.
The standard day would be the Conductor would operate the first round trip in the last car doing the doors and collecting fares. Then the conductor and the brakeman would switch on each run who would open the doors/collect last car and who would collect the rest of the train. The last run of the day (round trip) the conductor would operate the doors (heck Rank Has Its....).
Now since no transportation is lifted on the cars, you only have the conductor. Brakeman were promoted or retired out.
It looks like they are now slowly returning the R 142'S back to the road. The No.6 line been running about 3 trains a day and the No.2 started Saturday with returning one train for service starting with the 11:27 out of 241 Street.
I didn't think they would run the R142 with all those GO's. I mean Express from Frankin to Atlantic Ave and Local from Time Square to 96 Street. I wonder how long it took to program that computer.
I didn't get the car Nos. on the No.2 Line but on the No.6 there running 7221-7230 7261-7270 7271-7280
Just a Delivery Note: Kawasaki is know up to 7350. I seen 7341-7345 at Unionport and 7346-7350 at 239 Yard.
I saw three trains of R142A's at 42-GC. One set was 7231-7235. Two sets were about two intervals apart from each other.
I saw three trains of R142A's at 42-GC today. One set was 7231-7235. Two sets were about two intervals apart from each other.
Also at Unionport, 7331-7340 was removed. I guess it went to Westchester. 7211-7215 are at Unionport as well as 7216-7220.
7331-40 has been travelling in and out of there for some strange reason.... I have seen this set go up and down 2/5. Shouldn't it have already been transferred to Westchester Yard?
-Stef
As I wrote in another post, 6321-25 and 6346-50 are now running, in a somewhat limited fashion. They went down this morning with passengers, but returned light going up to the East.
-Stef
the stock number of the R-142 that was running on the 2 line as of this moment, is 6411-20. just thought you would like to know. i hope to see four or five more come back into revenue service
THERE IS THIS COOL LIGHT RAIL WEB PAGE CALLED www.lightrail.com THAT GIVES INFO ABOUT TRANSIT SYSTEMS THAT USE LIGHT RRAIL CARS EVEN GIVES INFO ABOUT THE TYPE OF LRV manufacture.
THERE IS THIS COOL LIGHT RAIL WEB PAGE CALLED www.lightrail.com THAT GIVES INFO ABOUT TRANSIT SYSTEMS THAT USE LIGHT RAIL CARS EVEN GIVES INFO ABOUT THE TYPE OF LRV manufacture.
One small tip: please turn off your caps lock.
The caps lock was on becaus it makes your post STAND OUT.
Since the message is alone on it's own page, what is it standing out from?
I can understand your logic being used to make a subject line all caps, but not a whole message.
In addition, you wanted the web addresses to stand out (they were the raison d`etre of your post), yet you made them smaller than everything else.
I made the address in lower case because the period would look like this >.
periods don't have case. They always look the same.
have you looked at the layout of a keyboard?
HOPELESS
Today, in anticipation of Thursday's SEPTA strike, local TV Station FOX 29 aired the Simpsons where Homer becomes the union president and get the power plant workers to go on strike to win back their dental plan that had been substituted in the new contract for a free keg of beer at all union meetings.
FOX 29 does a pretty good job of airing espisodes that are appropiate to whatever's going on at the time.
So, this just leaves one question: Is the SEPTA strike hargle bargle or foofara?
Did Fox 25 in boston mass air it?
They air it on FOX 5 at 7:30 PM. The same time when FOX 29 was giveing that show.
Dominick Bermudez.
But they did the one with they gay guy and the GAY STEEL MILL!
EVERYBODY DANCE NOW!!!
The 11 PM episode on the same channel was the one with the carnies.
Doesn't really matter. TWU and SEPTA management are the winners. It's the half million riders who get f*cked in the *ss every 3 years.
What are "hargle-bargle" and "floofara"? Otherwise, yeah, I can see your point, but the practice that really irks me is when local news will follow up a TV movie with a subject or story that just coincidentally happens to be the very same thing that was the subject of the movie, e.g., a child kidnap and ransome movie is followed up with a "how really safe is YOUR kid from kidnapping?" story on the news at 11. -Peace and GB, Thomas :-/
Does anyone know if the usual weekend GO's (especially White Plains Rd.) might be held in abeyance for Saturday's parade crowds, etc.
I expect to be in town this weekend, and am hoping to finally get a look at the R-142s on the 2.
They've been very camera-shy so far:-)
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
George, check out the NYCT Service Notices Page. It is usually updated every Thursday or Friday.
I don't know. But I suspect that at least the Queens Blvd/63rd St diversions will still be in effect. They seem to be getting riders accustomed to running the F that way.
:-) Andrew "MisterK" Kirschner
Assuming all other things remain the same (no pretend blizzards) all GOs should be running. After all St Pat's is not an official TA holiday. Personally, I'm so tired of dealing with the drunks on a normal Saturday night that I'm on vacation starting at 0909 on the 17th just so as not to deal with the extras.
I watched the DVD of The Peacemaker last night. It's a decent enough action-adventure flick from 1997 starring George Clooney and Nicole Kidman. Near the beginning, there's a quite exciting sequence as rebel Russian soldiers steal atomic bombs from a military train in the Ural Mountains (actually filmed in Slovenia). The rebels' train pulls alongside the bomb train on a parallel track, the rebels jump onto the bomb train and kill the guards (the bomb train's commander is in cahoots with the rebels), and offload nine of the ten bombs onto their train via a metal ramp. They then rig the signals to send the bomb train - all of whose occupants are now dead - onto a different track and into a head-on collision with a passenger train; the tenth, left-behind bomb then explodes, making the whole episode look like a tragic accident and covering up the fact that nine bombs are missing.
I'd have to say that the film-makers could have used some lessons when it comes to railroad operations. Jumping from the top of one train to another is easy as pie even though the trains are moving at 60 mph or better. And the speed of the two trains can be kept exactly the same, so that the metal ramp can be kept in place for transferring the bombs. But the biggest blooper of all - I watched the scene three times to make sure I got it right - is when the rigged signals send the bomb train onto the different track. The switch moves in the wrong direction. It had been set to put the bomb train onto the different track, but moves in a way that would put the train back onto the original track (defeating the whole point of the story). Somehow, that blooper slipped past everyone at the production company. But then again, the movie did have its share of bloopers. A major scene (one not involving trains) takes place at the border between Russia and Iran. Check an atlas :-)
[(actually filmed in Slovenia). ]
And they speak Serbian.
[takes place at the border between Russia and Iran. Check an atlas :-) ]
Not such a blooper at all, Russian army is still pretty much guarding THAT border. Most of the FSO is still pretty much or worse what it was 10 years ago.
Arti
Yes but the scene with Nicole kidman in a bathing suit and later in the stretch pants makes the bloopers excusable.
If I do say so myself. . . Peace and GB, Thomas ;-)
Yes but the scene with Nicole kidman in a bathing suit and later in the stretch pants makes the bloopers excusable.
You should rent Eyes Wide Shut.
True !!
A major scene (one not involving trains) takes place at the border between Russia and Iran. Check an atlas :-)
I did. The atlas (copyright 1989) shows this wierd country called "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" which borders Iran.
I guess they felt sad that a once perfectly entertaining border with two of our nemeses is now occupied by some boring countries like Turkmenistan, Armenia and Azerbaijan.
Hi All-
This idea occured to me several months ago, But I sort of forgot about it. I believe that most scratchitti, graffiti, vandalism occurs in the wee hours of the morning, when there are many empty cars. In cities such as Boston, D.C., and London where the subways close around midnight, the cars are remarkably clean.
My suggestion:
Since MTA must run 24hrs/day, why not implement "night trains". What I mean by that is....The MTA should keep many redbirds, and run them on all the IRT lines at night (lay up the R-62s and R-142s). These redbirds will be cleaned as the present ones are, but the "day trains" will be relatively vandalism free and require less repair.
For the IND/BMT just delegate a certain number of cars that will run as night trains, and the same trains will run each night thus spairing the majority of the cars. These "night trains" will also run during the day, but will only constitute a minority of total cars, and they will be cleaned just as all revenue cars are presently being cleaned. Therefore you will have the same amount of vandalism to clean, just concentrated onto fewer cars.
Any Comments?
Michael B.
It might help if that means that the newer cars stay in reasonably clean condition. It is rather annoying to try to look through a window with scratchitti on it.
BMTJeff
You're making a few assumptions that may not be true. First - the cost of maintaining a night fleet would be prohibitive. Cars must ne inspected every 67 days whether they accumulate mileage or not. The cars would require the same SMS schedules that the day fleet has. Then of course, you have the problem of storage. Where would all these cars be stored? Yard space is at a premium now. Second - what makes you think that the vandalism is done in the wee hours of the morning. There is more vandalism done between the hours of 2 PM & 5 PM than during the overnight hours.
It is not surprising that most of the vandalism occurs during the hours of 2 P.M. to 5 P.M. which is when the school kids are let out for the day. If they could keep school kids from obtaining razor blades it might help to cut down on the amount of scratchitti.
BMTJeff
And sandpaper.
What on earth would the kids use sandpaper for. The only thing I can think of is to rub the windowpanes with it.
BMTJeff
What about keys? You can't take keys from kids.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
It is true that you can't take keys away from the kids. At the same time I don't think that keys can do quite as much damage as razor blades unless someone has a key with an usually sharp point on it.
BMTJeff
If they could keep school kids from obtaining razor blades it might help to cut down on the amount of scratchitti.
And how are they supposed to shave then?
Why don't we just ban youth from riding the subway? There aren't enough human rights violations perpetrated by the regime against people who are "chronologically challenged."
Did you ever think that the kids could shave with electric razors? They can do just as good of job as a shaver that uses a razor blade plus an electric razor cannot be used to create scratchitti.
BMTJeff
Electric razors suck. They're only good for beginner shavers who cut themselves too often.
And as everything, I'm sure that this age will end up being twenty-one, so I'd be screwed. It seems that since the voting age was lowered from the blackjack age, everything else was gradually raised. I'm sure that soon, the age of majority will be raised to twenty-one, somewhere it never has been (the slavery that is legally mandated childhood is a relatively recent innovation).
The Boomers (who are currently in power) will, when social security collapses end up suffering because the generation in power then will be the current youth, the most enshackled generation of youth in modern history. I apologize to all of you boomers out there, but the people who currently wield political power deserve to be the people that suffer the most misery in old age.
Again, I apologize to all of you boomers, I don't want the whole generation to suffer. I am firmly against indicting an entire group for the actions of a few, however that is the practice of the current regime, and those responsible must be punished.
...........?????.....................................................!!
.......???
one more time.....???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
This (my generation, current youth) is the worst ever. Sometimes i wake up at night frightened by the future. but i wont get into that. GET RID OF SCRATCHITTI PLEASE
I argee with you that they should try to get rid of scratchitti. It is rather annoying to say the least. Graffiti though was worse in my own opinion.
BMTJeff
matters what graffiti, then again i dont want to start an argument again. but since we have "clean trains" I think scratchitti needs serious elimination. Hey If we had full blow 70s 80s style graff then no one would notice, but now the trains are clean might as well be like that all throughout the car. I dont think replacement of some sort of temporary cover on the windows will deter vandals. seriously, scratchitti is a past time, its something people do because they are bored, only a few Scratchittists try to actually get their name around, all other people are just riders who are poking their keys.
>>>but since we have "clean trains" I think scratchitti
needs serious elimination. Hey If we had full blow 70s 80s style graff then no one would notice, but now the trains are clean
might as well be like that all throughout the car
Seven: Uhhh....graffiti in the subway was not a problem, but scratchitti "needs serious elimination? Most interesting.
-cordially,
turnstiles
yes, u see i encourage graffiti with artistic value, listen i knew you people would start it up with me because of this. I dont like plain tags as much as u do , its annoying and dirty, but when there is effort applied to a real piece then there is value, listen i am not explaining this again. by the way will someone help me find that Tour-giving C/R? please, thanks in advance
Scratchitti IS Grafitti...I don't care what cutesy pie name the TA wants to call it just so they can say their cars are grafitti free.
Peace,
ANDEE
Your right. Scratchitti is simply graffitti by another name. True it isn't like the spray paint variety that was common during the 1970s and the 1980s nonetheless it isn't pleasant to look at. Now if they could be gotten the graffitti artists back in the 1970s and 1980s to have spray painted murals on the sides of subway cars without marking up the windows and the interior of the cars and they had maintained cars in decent condition at the time maybe people wouldn't have condemned it as a sign of blight. Unfortunately during the graffitti era the subway cars and the system itself was poorly maintain and the graffitti was simply another sign that the subway system was in a state of decay.
BMTJeff
This (my generation, current youth) is the worst ever. Sometimes i wake up at night frightened by the future. but i wont get into that. GET RID OF SCRATCHITTI PLEASE
While I agree with you on the elimination of scratchitti, the current generation of youth is no worse than any prior generation. They are oppressed more than any prior generation however.
thats a relief, uh i think.
...the current generation of youth is no worse than any prior generation. They are oppressed more than any prior generation however.
Hogwash. Let's make a quick comparison of youth at three ages and at three points in American history. Since I am more familiar with the rural New England environment from a historical perspective (seeing as that's what I studied in grad school many years ago) that's the geographic and cultural norm for the comparisons, but the urban environment isn't a lot different - probably harsher. Note also that the comparison is for males, whose historical roles are significantly different than females.
I've tried to format this data using tables; in my browser I have to scroll down to read each table, not sure why as I don't have any problem with the same commands in a standard web page... maybe something to do with Dave's page setup here that I don't know enough about to override. Each table appears to start a new page.
Age 6
1700
1850
2000
Education
minimal, from parents
minimal, from parents
public school, kindergarten completed
Work
chores, at home
chores, at home
none
Clothing
two sets, shoes for winter
three sets, shoes
designer fashions
Recreation
chasing bugs
chasing bugs, swimming
TV, video games, toy of the day
Food
high starch, some protein and vegetables
high starch, more balanced diet
balanced and/or junk food
Age 12
1700
1850
2000
Education
enough to read the Bible, basic ciphers
one room schoolhouse, general education
public school, sixth grade completed
Work
six hours or more per day
four hours or more per day
minimal chores
Clothing
two sets, shoes for winter
three sets, shoes
designer fashions
Recreation
reading the Bible
swimming, fishing
TV, video games, toy of the day
Food
high starch, some protein and vegetables
high starch, more balanced diet
balanced and/or junk food
Age 18
1700
1850
2000
Education
none since age 12
eighth grade equivalent
public school, minimum tenth grade completed, 95% graduated high school
Work
full time
full time
part time, to pay for luxuries
Clothing
two sets, shoes for winter
three sets, shoes
designer fashions
Recreation
none
none
sports, TV
Food
high starch, some protein and vegetables
high starch, more balanced diet
junk food, balanced if parents insist
Most eighteen year olds have little or no responsibilities today. In 1700 they were probably married or would soon be and in 1850 they were probably close to marriage and the responsibilities that come with it as well. Today's eighteen year olds, by and large, have the world handed to them on a silver platter, and still they want more. They have more freedom than at any time in American history - more freedom than most of them can handle. Oppressed? Absolutely not.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interesting historical comparisons ... one that gave me a laugh was that recreation for a six-year-old in 1700 consisted of chasing bugs - kids probably enjoyed that more than today's kids enjoy their computers, Play Station 2's and sports leagues.
To get the other end of the age spectrum involved, we ought to look at how the typical 65-year-old fared at these different time periods:
1700
dead
1850
penniless, enfeebled, dependent on children
2001
leaving tomorrow for a 14-day Carribean cruise
I can agree with you about ages six and twelve, but seventeen (I have to go down one year) year olds suffer most from legally instituted childhood. Even eighteen year-olds suffer because of the blackjack age. There was never any doubt that children today have a better life at home than they did 150 or 300 years ago, but there is more opression instituted by law.
High School is nothing more than a prison, most things you learn will not matter in the future or would be relearned in college. Mandatory High School was only imposed during the Depression to remove teenagers from the workforce.
The 1850 seventeen year olds were better off. By working, they can begin their work experience earlier, and afford for themselves a home, instead of being forced to get working papers (sounds like something from a totalitarian state), being almost forbidden to rent an apartment and start bank accounts that aren't "custodian" accounts.
As for food, it's obvious that 1850 people were better nourished.
Chronologically challenged boy thats great, ye some people especially on this board have that problem, I think its a midlife crisis thing
Until recently it was emery cloth wrapped around the finger of the young vandal. Recently, some of the more advanced vandals are using a chemical etching solution on the glass. This latest form of vandalism poses several dangers. First, before it dries, it's caustic & toxic to customers. When it dries, it looks like regular graffiti, however. The first thing a cleaner will do is wet it which re-activates the chemical. The glass must be replaced and handled as hazardous waste.
Until recently it was emery cloth wrapped around the finger of the young vandal. Recently, some of the more advanced vandals are using a chemical etching solution on the glass. This latest form of vandalism poses several dangers. First, before it dries, it's caustic & toxic to customers. When it dries, it looks like regular graffiti, however. The first thing a cleaner will do is wet it which re-activates the chemical. The glass must be replaced and handled as hazardous waste.
Mishandling hazardous waste can be a crime under both state and federal laws. It would be terrific if these vandals could be charged with these crimes in addition to the vandalism charges. Mommy and Daddy* will have to pay even more for lawyers to get their little darlings off!
* = not that there usually is a Daddy, of course.
Of course they have daddies. They're so lucky that all of their brothers and sisters have a different daddy.
Of course they [graffiti vandals] have daddies. They're so lucky that all of their brothers and sisters have a different daddy.
Of course. I don't know why I didn't realize that.
i bet he's a racist too
i bet he's a racist too
Have you tried Ritalin?
Have you tried Ritalin?
Yes he has. He couldn't afford cocaine so he snorted his friend's Ritalin.
At least that would explain the brain damage.
this guy too.
this guy too what?
Who are you associating me with using the word too?
u fucking idiot. this guy is some sort of inhumane saddistic bastard. he hates everyone. you fucking maniac if i ever run into you i'll fucking throw you in front of a train u dick. but it would be a standing train. with no one inside. I'd just make him hit the third, we dont want no T/O getting into trouble
u fucking idiot. this guy is some sort of inhumane saddistic bastard. he hates everyone. you fucking maniac if i ever run into you i'll fucking throw you in front of a train u dick. but it would be a standing train. with no one inside. I'd just make him hit the third, we dont want no T/O getting into trouble
Duh.
I'm quite sure that you can make your point without the inappropriate language. It doesn't enhance your message, fewer people will take the time to read it and makes people think that you are less intelligent than you actually are.
yea i kinda went loose, but this guy, is just Ughhhhh
"u fucking idiot. this guy is some sort of inhumane saddistic bastard. he hates everyone. you fucking maniac if i ever run into you i'll fucking throw you in front of a train u dick. but it would be a standing train. with no one inside. I'd just make him hit the third, we dont want no T/O getting into trouble"
If you can take a deep breath and return to civilization for a moment, we can explore why Peter makes a good point. And while you're there, consider why you don't win too many points with other people when you say things like that - it implies poverty of the mind.
There is no "we," of course, because people who trash trains don't think like one, and don't have the discipline for it. If you think you know all the folks who destroy glass and train sides, you are deluding yourself.
Someone who would willingly put a caustic substance in a public place where other people could be injured by it is unethical, to say the least. That person deserves to be arrested, prosecuted and fined, at least. If it were up to me, that person would find college assistance money, salary and other income partly attached to pay the damage and any restitution to someone who was burned by the liquid.
How would you like it if somebody decided to come to your house tomorrow and pour some burner fluid on your windows?
we call it burner ink in the Graff community
You also can't stop those morons who dent the cars with broom handles or whatever it is they use
this is news to me. i once saw a bum drive another bum into an R-44 at Bway Junction, he made quite a dent. Could be a bum problem
Thats true, very true, plus scratchitti has got to go, you folks at the mta gotta come up with something good instead of that plastic cover shizt. Its annoying. yes thats right i said it. i dont like anything without artistic value
UNDER GROUND STORAGE VIA MANHOLE
them low beams!! them low beams!!
A little bit of nostalga for Long Island Railroad veterans of the Rockaway Line is in the New York Daily News today. Seems like the MTA has done a study that comes out against restoring the old Rockaway branch with a new Jamaica Bay crossing south of Liberty Ave., saying the $900 million cost is too much. But a rep from the Committee for Better Transportation says just get an FRA waiver and run the LIRR trains together with the A trains going to the Rockaways, saying it's been done in other cities (Huh?).
Anyway, the MTA report was going before Community Board 14 tonight, and the story is here:
Rockaway plan is too costly — MTA
Typicl MTA or rfor the matter any money losing agency. As I see it, it's most obvious that they don't want to expand the service, as it makes them even less profitable as they are. A hint, think of the USSR.
Arti
What they really need is a connection between the Rockaways' A and other Queens subways--for instance the Queens Blvd. line. That could be accomplished partly by restoring the unused portion of the former LIRR Rockaway line.
:-) Andrew
There's a plan for that that's been around since 1929--it's called the IND Second System, Winfield Spur. They've even got the beginning of it built at Roosevelt Ave. Station--a seperate station that branches off from the local tracks. There exists information about it somewhere on the site.
Dan
On oldnyc.com there is an excellent virtual tour of the old LIRR Rockaway line. Much of it has been reclaimed by Mother Nature; some of it has parking lots built on it illegally.
I used to be a member of the "summer trash" in Rockaway that rented bungalows summer after summer. They knocked down most of the bungalows in the late 1960's, decimated the boardwalk, and let the ocean reclaim the beaches. At least through the 1980's, they replaced it with......nothing. Where the "housing boom" is now, I don't really know. The only good beach left east of the Hammels Wye is on Beach 17, and that is a major schlep from the subway. (And you're really not even swimming in the ocean there, but an inlet between Rockaway and Atlantic Beach.) I don't know how people in Belle Harbor or Neponset would feel about an extension of the Rockaway Park branch to Riis Park. Perhaps Riis Park can be reached by one of the many proposed extensions of the IRT in Brooklyn, though it would be a long ride to Manhattan from there.
By the way, it took my Dad an hour and fifteen minutes from Beach 36 to 47-50 St. This was about 35 minutes longer than his ride from Av I in the non-summer months. He said the LIRR covered the same ground in about 40 minutes.
In another thread, someone proposed greater use of the Hammels Wye connector, so that people can easily traverse the peninsula. When I lived there, you paid double to get on, and a fare to get off. A triple fare for an intra-peninsula trip!!! I guess that kept the Green Bus Line in business. The connector is a single track, however.
The viaduct really makes for a great train ride, but the Freeway below is pretty dangerous, particularly if you need to make a left turn from it. (For those who don't know, the road is two lanes each direction, with the eastbound lanes under the viaduct and the westbound along side it.) Late at night, people used to use it as a drag strip!!
[On oldnyc.com there is an excellent virtual tour of the old LIRR Rockaway line. Much of it has been reclaimed by Mother Nature; some of it has parking lots built on it illegally. ]
Isn't there a law in NYC, that if the owner of the property doen't do anything to remove them, after a certain period of time they lose the ownership?
Arti
Don't know; but, if MTA wants to use the property, it has a sticky situation on its hands either way.
Naaahhh, just tow the cars and rip it up and lay the tracks. Pretty easy isn't it?
Thank God for immenant domain!! :-)
It's called adverse possession, and governmental entities are exempt.
Just like in medieval times, if a serf stayed away from his manor for a year and a day without being recaptured, the serf became free.
"The viaduct really makes for a great train ride, "
It's a beautiful run. I've always enjoyed it. It's like travelling to another world.
Actually, one would be able to get a ticket at boarding that would exempt them from an exit fare, so still only double fare.
I love the beach. I'm talking Nassau county's south shore beaches, Long Beach and Jones Beach for example.
It too bad it's not easy to get back by bus, especially at night.
Yeah just another reason to drive. Yeah right, with all those crazy drivers out there?? I feel dirty just thinking about CARS.
You can always TAKE THE TRAIN. At least from Long Beach anyway.
Probably not too safe in the Rockaways at night though.
Well unfortunately the differences in voltage and signal really makes it hard for LIRR trains and subway cars to travel the same tracks. Building a new trestle is clearly a waste of money.
What should be done is the old LIRR ROW that is abandoned and clearly marked by steel electric towers, should be used for a new subway line connecting to the area just east of Rockaway Blvd with the current A Rockaway line, and to the Queens Blvd IND to the north.
The provisions in Queens Blvd are there, and it would provide a much more direct means from one end of Queens to other.
HINT: The G could run down the Rockaway branch to Rockaway Park (would replace shuttle). The G would run from Rockaway park to Smith-9th via Rockaway line, Queens Blvd, and crosstown line.
The Rockaway tracks have ample room for more trains, it's just that they don't provide enough.
Maybe the G train would get a little more respect because it would be a longer route serving more communities.
The line was supposed to be much longer than planned, and it's a shame to see what the MTA has done with it (and may banish it from Queens Blvd, the final blow).
The line should go to Church and F should run as an express. But the TA won't even do that. Don't hold your breath for that Rockaway service.
[The line should go to Church and F should run as an express. ]
That would be degrading the service. Some express skipping few stops really doesn't save much time novadays. Don't know what the problem is but they really crawl. Now propose the idea to the people in local stops served by the train taking them nowhere!
The best express service is the kind like run on 6, IMHO.
Arti
G would make no sense, perhaps transfering was viable 60 years ao, but today it's a devil. I'll bet most of the people would opt for A for that matter. R or V could be a better option. G as a xtown shuttle as planned for the MTA sounds like a good idea, I'd cut it even more in the Brooklyn side to Hoyt Street.
Arti
This line MUST BE SAVED PERIOD. Its a shame to see it this way. Theres no reason for it too remain unused. I agree about the Queens Blvd part. Extend the A to queens blvd. or maybe the F train. let that go there some how. I hope the "MTA" can do something right for once........
A nice ride for the G, but these people want LIRR service to the Rockaways, which means they want service to and from Manhattan, which the G wouldn't provide.
On the other hand, a V train from Houston-Second Ave. to Rockaway Park via the old LIRR line would provide a route via Manhattan, though odds are the Rockaway riders would still want the E or F trains to serve them, while the V would run to Jamaica or 179th St.
We'll see if the Daily News has a follow up story on the Community Board meeting on Wednesday. If nothing else, maybe all this talk will help someone at the paper remember the old Roosevelt Ave. station and the fact that a Rockaway link to the Queens Blvd. line is not exactly a new idea.
1. G,R, or V switches off at 63rd and goes down to Metropolitan Ave (Parkside).
There already is a tunnel over the 4 QB line tracks, so no traffic problems and minimal subway service disruptions will occur during construction. The tunnels are there, all they need are tracks. Dig for about 5 blocks after the tunnels end, and you are right under the LIRR main, perfect spot for a tunnel portal to the outside (very wide area). Deep boring may be necessary to avoid LIRR and local street disruption. Place station at 64th Road or Dartmouth st. At Dartmouth they could build an automobile + pedestrian bridge connection (DOT funding) over the line and have the station entrance / fare control on top (think LIRR Hunterspoint ave). This would allow for an island platform. Continue along ROW with terminus at Parkside (Metropolitan ave). Side platforms, no fare control on the discharge side and relay.
2. Line could theoretically be extended all the way to Woodhaven if a tunnel portal were placed at Parkside and the line went under the Lower Montauk, parking lots and Crescent Apts park. Line would re-emerge in Forest Park, with Forest Park station (island platform) under one of the overpasses, with fare control on top. When line crosses under the J, build Brooklyn Manor station and have transfer to J/Z at Woodhaven Blvd station (yes, I know that's a long distance). Line continues to Woodhaven station, last stop. Use existing side platforms, either have departures from only one track or build fare control area under the viaduct on Atlantic Ave.
3. New terminal for Rockaways Shuttle is Ozone Park station.
The MTA wasn't stupid when building their connection to the A. Southbound they left a space one-track wide for a ramp over the As connection tracks to the rest of the viaduct. Northbound after the Racetrack they could simply continue straight rail to Ozone Pk. Ever wonder why the A connection goes to the middle of the viaduct, and widens from there?
4. Draw (on the subway map) a dotted line from Woodhaven to Ozone Park, and a large red X where the school bus company is, and explain to the people why the line is not contiguous. Community pressure will get results.
It seems to me that the A train itself could use some upgrading. Improve the line and stations now in use in the Rockaways. Also, an extension of the line in the direction of Jacob Riis Park would be helpful (underground, or in a depression with street improvements and greenery). Putting the subway underground as it enters the Rockaway peninsula and goes to Far Rockaway or 116, then demolishing the elevated and cleaning up the ROW would be nice too, but a pipe dream at this point.
Does the word Ocean set off any bells or whistles?
avid
Certainly it does - but a lot of positive bells and whistles. Rockaway is a first class beach (but neglected). Improving the existing subway service to it is something we should think about.
If the MTA is dead set against introducing a new trestle there it will be hard to change its mind (look at how much effort was required to get 2nd A into motion. Not only that, it took five years to get the 63rd St Connector built, and that was with the advantage of a sub-billion price tag and no NIMBY problems).
When you dig in that sand , it doesn't take many shovels before you have a hole full of water. An under ground or open cut ROW would be constantly fighting back the Atlantic Ocean or Jamacia Bay. Thats just under calm weather conditions. Lets have a N'reaster or a hurricane . It could get very expensive.
The dash from Howard Beach to Broad Channel has concerns at times.
The cost and maintainance costs would ultimately deny the service you envision. Stay with the concret viaduct and maybe there is a chance, maybe.
avid
I tell youfrom the experience of riding to rockaway park, on a good windy day with rain beggining to come dow, riding an r-38 to borad channel from howard beach, could be a little nerve racking, the car swings heavily form side to side, and forget about going between cars. Anyways, If anyone here lives on rockaway or travels there frequently, knows about all the new condos being built, especially in Rockaway Park, and the increasing number of people each summer who head to its beautiful beaches. Something needs to be done to improve rockaway service. And even Bus service needs drasrtic improvements. They run every two weeks it seems. When they have repairs on the line, they run shuttle busses from Rockaway Blvd to 98th playland, its nice and frequent and quick, asking some friends who live there, they much prefer the Shuttle bus then waiting 20 min for Rockpark shuttle at the lay-up track under the blasted freezing wind at broad channel
All right, so if underground building isn't feasible, fine. But the A line should still be extended in the direction of Riis Park,using modern elevated construction technology and landscaping enhancements. Miami Metrorail has stretches (esp. along South Dixie Highway near the University of Miami) where the aesthetic values of this are demonstrated. An elevated can be quiet and pretty.
Agreed, no arguement.
The airtrain type of construction of overhead service would be everything you advocate and could be done with speed.
avid
[When you dig in that sand , it doesn't take many shovels before you have a hole full of water.]
Hmmmm ... a new source of fresh water for the residents of the Rockaways ?
Mr t__;-)
Thurston,
Is that heypaul in disguise?
Look very carefully at the statement about water. No mention of fresh potable water is there.
Brrraaaaaakkissshhhhhhhhhhh! phhhht tuuuuuuuuuuiiiiiiieeee. at the surface.
Way down 300 feet maybe more , you may hit artisian well water, maybe?
avid
I'm truly amazed at this proposal. The Rockaway Line is an expensive undertaking for the ridership as it has now. The peninsula is only a few blocks wide in most places. The line (LIRR or subway) was only justified for the miles of fine beach on the peninsula, which mostly go to waste.
The MTA is quite right about the issue of mixing subway and LIRR trains--the FRA has been going the opposite direction from letting heavy railroads and rapid transit/light rail use the same tracks. In many cases they are demanding (for example) that railroad freight only operate in the middle of the night when no light rail is running and that there be a "buffer" of an hour or more when nothing operates at all.
If it was done it would not have the ridership. Look what happened to that waste of money on the electafication of the Ronkoncmo Branch,
Total waste!
Sarcasm aside, the Ronk draws ridership from the entire east end of Long Island. What would they do to build ridership on the Rockaway Line, line the barrier beach (because that's what it is) with high rises?
Sounds like a good time for the Rockaway people to revive that casino gambling option, though the passengers may only have enough money for a one-way ticket to the peninsula :-)
reguardleass of anything, subway service needs to be improved along with bus, maybe use hammels Wye regularly, only reliable service on rockaway is Duces, Shore, and Beach car services, mta should be thanking them for getting the residents around
Hi rise housing.
Casinos.
Bathing suits optional beaches again.
Tax free port mall. access by transit only! conviently located for JFK travelers.
Now extend it to LGA and GCS.
avid
Electrification of LIRR lines is not a "waste of money." It improves service, reduces the need for diesel locomotives, and does its little bit to fight air pollution. It also ensures that the train can make it to Penn Station (or GCT in a few years). Remember that there were no dual-mode diesel and 3rd rail locomotives just a few years ago.
My point exactly! The ridership for that line maxed out with gains from other lines and population growth.
I feel the same would be the case for a joint Rockaway branch to GCS.
The JFK and LGA potential to GCS can't be ignored or denied.
avid
[I'm truly amazed at this proposal. The Rockaway Line is an expensive undertaking for the ridership as it has now. The peninsula is only a few blocks wide in most places.]
Smells like a gift to one of the MTA's friends to do the study. I can't believe they were ever serious about doing it. If this was a ligitimate study it must have had some other purpose, i.e. related to JFK Express (LIRR service to JFK) or connection of Rockaway A to Queens Blvd. line (subway extention), but not to provide LIRR service to the Rockaways. In any case was a nice photo of an old Owl Eye LIRR commuter car on the Rockaway line.
Mr t__:^)
Right, Thurston. It would only be worth something if it were to somehow be connected to LaGaudia Airport at the north, since we now have the long awaited "AirTrain" almost ready to go.
Seems like a waste of time to study it seriously.
BTW, under the Dinkins administration the City Planning Commission did a study on ALL New York City area 'unused and underused' railroad lines and determined at that time that it was worthy of reopening the line due to the then increase in population in northern- and mid-Queens neighobrhoods. But again, the emphasis was also on a faster connection between midtown and JFK since the "Air Train" wasn't a part of the equation.
The study was called, "An Assessment of the Transit Service Potential of Inactive Railroad Rights-of-Way and Yards". It is a Final Report from Oct. '91.
BMTman
Providing and updating a set of alternatives is not "per se" a waste of money. You and Thurston appear to be dismissing a lot of potential demand and redevelopment out of hand - why I'm not sure.
I'm not saying a new line should be built. But the Rockaways hold a lot more potential as a recreational and residential destination than you give credit for, and there are people living there with real needs. So if feasible transit improvements can be explored and discussed, I for one support that.
Even if a particular study was a "gift" to a friend, if it produced useful data, perhaps you ought not to sneer at it.
[You and Thurston appear to be dismissing a lot of potential demand and redevelopment out of hand ...]
No I wasn't saying that. My point was that it was a waste of money to study a second viaduct across Jamaica Bay. The money would have been better spent to study the posibilities NORTH of White Pot Junction (in addition to what it would take to re-activate what is left of Rockaway line), AND it was not useful to study it from a LIRR prospective, because neither a second viaduct nor LIRR service to the Rockaways have the slightest hope of becoming a reality.
Maybe the MTA wanted to do a study comparing LIRR service to JFK vs. what the Port Authority is doing, but they couldn't call it that so they added consideration of a second viaduct.
This issue has been talked about alot here over the years. It's too bad another useless study was done instead of work toward a practical use of that abandon ROW.
Mr t__:^)
The study was called, "An Assessment of the Transit Service Potential of Inactive Railroad Rights-of-Way and Yards". It is a Final Report from Oct. '91.
Can you suggest a source from which this might be available?
--Mark
Contact me offline.
BMTman
As I was told regarding NY state law:
The Taylor Act also prohibits strikes by -ANY- public employee (fire, police, TRANSIT, TEACHERS, etc). To take a quote from the website:
the purpose of this act to promote harmonious and cooperative relationships between government and its employees and to protect
the public by assuring, at all times, the orderly and uninterrupted operations and functions of government.
PA, obviously, does not have a similar law on the books
So should a similar law be enacted in Pensylvania; or is it not a vital service in Philadelphia, no matter now much it harms the city's economy?
Hey "train dude": Wussup? I sent you an e-mail yesterday to the hotmail address you've filed with SubTalk as your e-mail address, and really do look forward to reading your reply to it!! Just a casual reminder, please check your e-mail and respond at your earliest possible convenience. Thanx. Peace and GB, Thomas :-)
Thomas, I received your E-Mail and responded to it. BTW: Please drop the Dear in the Subject line. Only Mrs. train dude call me dear...
Um, er, uh, like, I'm not, you know, like "that", train dude!!! LMAO!! I meant "dear" in like, you know, SubTalk Camradderie, not like, you are just SOOO dear to me, if you died I would too! Naw, but seriously, say "hi" to Mrs. T. Dude for me, who I assure you from here on out will enjoy an exclusive monopoly on the referring to you as "Dear" (unless of course, she gets traded in for a younger, more modern model in which case the franchise monopoly passes onto her instead, cause ya never knows!! ;-) ) peace and GB, Thomas:-)
BTW: wouldn't she be called more appropriately Mrs. Train Dude-ette?
LMAO!!! Peace and GB, Thomas :-)
P.S.: Hotmail still ain't posted your response yet, I hope it isn't lost in cyberspace somewhere!
Has anyone seen this ad where we see a view of passing train (keeping pace with it) and the various weird people or things that are going on. Two or three cars are passed until "our" passing train comes upon a 'normal' man leaning against a wall and reading a paper. The view then shows the T/O of the train "we're on" (It's a woman). She mouths a message of "nice pants" to the male passenger.
This looks like a new commercial. The train is not New York, and I suspect it is not even somewhere in the US (looks more like Canada or Europe).
BMTman
The advertisers are always doing that. Still cheaper to film elsewhere. I remember Toronto's subway being used to substitute for New York all the time. In one scene (I forget the film's name - a cheap TV movie) they had a red 3 pasted on the front of a Toronto subway car, and the conductor was talking about the ride up the Concourse!
I gather the controller in the commercial was fake. I just saw it today. Definately a cool commercial.
Looked real too.
My wife is a big fan of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" on The WB. Tonight's episode featured 2 of the characters fighting on a subway car. The time was meant to be New York in 1977. It was an R-32, complete with graffiti, but I believe it was post rehab, since there were stainless steel bars in place of the metal "strap" style handholds, and the blue seats, beige walls, and today's typeface on the "Do Not Hold Doors" signs, etc. The storm doors were stainless, not blue or orange. I can't recall an end-shot to check the route marker.
I think they did a surprisingly good job with recreating the authenticity of the subway, which Hollywood often fails at. I was actually impressed. I'm just wondering where they filmed those scenes, since I know "Buffy" is filmed in L.A. Maybe since it's one of the WB's more successful shows, they decided to fork over the cash to shoot here in New York.
OK, I admit it, I was watching too (I swear, I had no choice, SHE made me watch!)
I also remarked on the authenticity of the subway car. It was no fake "Seinfeld" type of bogus car. I have a feeling that there must be at least one subway car in LA somewhere used for shooting scenes.... how difficult would it be to get one out there, or maybe disassemble it, ship it, and reassemble it?
PPS
It wouldn't be hard at all to ship a car to LA - certainly it would be done intact, not disassembled. Whether or not that was done in this case is another question entirely, which I am not in a position to answer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK, I admit it, I was watching too (I swear, I had no choice, SHE made me watch!)
It's not such a horrible thing to admit. It has nice-looking women, violence, and supernatural beings.
How is that not fun?
I don't usually watch it, but I still think it's a good show, if a bit campy -- that may be part of the appeal. The show is a hit with teens and critics alike because it uses the supernatuaral as a metaphor for the perceived problems of our youth. Also, turns out they put some effort into subway authenticity.
And the babes are hot!
>>> there must be at least one subway car in LA somewhere used for shooting scenes <<<
I did not see the episode so I do not know what it looked like, but there is a Subway sound stage in downtown Los Angeles with a length of track and a subway station. This might have been used for that episode.
Tom
I believe the MTA has a film office to help with these sorts of things. They would not be eager, though, to encourage the portrayal of graffitti-smeared cars.
Perhaps they would in this case, as the scene was clearly identified as 1977. Sort of a "Look how far we've come, ain't things great now compared to 1977" thing.
Granted.
The exterior shot with the graffiti was a stock footage shot. It looks familiar to me, but I can't place it exactly.
The interior shot was very close to authentic, but I think it was something that was constructed. They might have had leftover sets from the movie "End Of Days." I think "End Of Days" is a Warner Bros. title. If you looked closely the side signs weren't quite right, the car number was in the wrong place, it was numbered 6230, which would make it an R-16, which was not overhauled. The ceiling fans were too small. They did do a good job, nonetheless. I'm sure the scene was filmed in LA, except for the exterior shot when Spike pulls the emergency brake. The was an R-38, I just missed the car number, but it was legit. I could see the wall tiles behind the car. That might have been stock footage as well...
I forgot -- I did notice the small ceiling fan vents too, which were incongruous. Could have been meant to be an R-38 too. I don't ride them much in my daily travels.
I think "End Of Days" is a Warner Bros. title.
Even though it's on the WB network, "Buffy" is produced by "We're too lazy to change our name to keep up with the century" Fox.
Not that you said otherwise, but usually companies use stock footage from their own films, and Twentieth Century Fox has plenty of films of various genre.
The interior was 100% fake. Since when were poles designed to snap in half with a little piece of crap with the strength Scotch Tape in our subway cars? Did you also notice the windows were upside down?
My goodness.
There's nitpicking, and then there's what you're doing. The poles were a part of the story.
I think that if they can lie about the existence of subterrestrial creatures, they can make a few mistakes about the subway if it creates a more potent event in the plot.
There was talk about connecting the NYC Subway to the LIRR at one point, where I don't remember, but here are my questions:
1) Does the width of B-division subway trains match with LIRR tracks and platforms? i.e Can the A tracks be extended to meet the LIRR at Far Rockaway?
2) Is the Metro North and LIRR the same in terms or dimensions?
Can the A tracks be extended to meet the LIRR at Far Rockaway?
The A tracks to the Rockaways were once part of the LIRR. As to the platform dimensions, I'll have to leave that to someone else.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I believe that the LIRR M-1 MU is ten feet wide at the base, which would make it the same width as an R-68 or R-46. It is 85 feet long, though, and an MU consist would therefore have different requirements for negotiating curves. I have noticed, too, that there is a larger gap between doors and platform on the LIRR (I presume to allow the LIRR train to pass at high speed - somebody correct me if I'm wrong).
If an 85 footer can make it around the curve, the 75 footer R-46 can as well.
The REAL problem of incompatiblity has to do with the voltages on the third rail. Subways like 600 DC and Commuters like 700 DC. May not seem like much, but it'd toast the subway cars going to 700 and the Commuters would get pokey at 600, not to mention that horsepower is a function of wattage and if the voltage were lowered, the current at the motors would have to go up.
If anyone here's ever lost a refrigerator, fan or air conditioner as a result of low voltage or high voltage, then you know the drill. AC or DC, wattage or horsepower is a multiplicand. It's not the end of the world of course, but it would be a complication. Perhaps subway to one point, transfer to the other might work, but you'd have to change trains to ensure that the cars themselves have the proper powering for their design where they operate.
Then there's politics ... but I won't go there.
It's more like 600v and 750v now. When the LIRR and MN voltage was 650v, an R32 ran from Mott Haven to GCT in 1964, a PATH PA1 ran Penn Station to Dunton car shops in 1965, and R44 did the same in 1972.
All resulted in burned out traction motors. In 1973, MP72's ran on Staten Island.
[The REAL problem of incompatiblity has to do with the voltages on the third rail. Subways like 600 DC and Commuters like 700 DC.]
Easy enough to design new cars to handle both.
Of course ... if you've got the money. I think folks would rather see 2nd Avenue first though, then the dual V's. Perhaps?
[Of course ... if you've got the money. I think folks would rather see 2nd Avenue first though, then the dual V's. Perhaps?]
Oh, if it were a choice, I'd take the Second Avenue. But dual voltage/multistandard cars wouldn't cost anything additional if they were phased in as part of normal car purchases. And that would give you both versatility and economy of scale.
But you still have the regulatory incompatibility. Hooking the subways to the LIRR or Metro North would require that they comply with the same FRA regs as "real" railroads, like the PATH.
[But you still have the regulatory incompatibility. Hooking the subways to the LIRR or Metro North would require that they comply with the same FRA regs as "real" railroads, like the PATH.]
Definitely something to be avoided if possible. But for the most part I think it's possible to avoid overlap. For example, if you wanted to bring Metro North trains down the Broadway line you'd just dedicated two tracks & make them FRA.
Also, it seems to me that we need an in-between standard of sorts. No one questions the need for FRA compliance in a vehicle that travels on a line with freights or locomotives. But AFAIK there's no reason that lighter FRA-compliant vehicles like PATH or LIRR coaches wouldn't be safe on a subway.
Just what are the FRA regulations that you speak of? If they would lead to better safety on the lines, why not put them in place?
The regulations are voluminous. Compliance is reputed to be expensive. If you want to look at them, click here.
[Just what are the FRA regulations that you speak of? If they would lead to better safety on the lines, why not put them in place?]
I don't think it's a question of regulation as much as of jurisdiction and applicability. The FRA regulates the interstate railroad network, which runs across state lines, so it makes sense to govern it at the Federal level. But it would be inefficient to have both a local and Federal agency supervise a self-contained local transit operation. And structural features that protect passengers in the event of a collision with locomotives and freight trains aren't necessary for subways or light rail. Safety needs are different.
When the R-44's were tested on LIRR trackage (between Woodside and Jamaica), did the MTA change the voltage on that stretch of track for the test?
[When the R-44's were tested on LIRR trackage (between Woodside and Jamaica), did the MTA change the voltage on that stretch of track for the test?]
Interesting question--I'm not sure.
I wouldn't know for sure but the M/M/I who trained us on the R44's told us that indeed the R44 had hit 82-83 MPH on those tests but they blew half the traction motors doing it. The speed wasn't accomplished by the higher voltage, it was done by using the control systems to their potential. In increase of 50 volts wouldn't have attained that speed.
Howdy guy! No, but the difference between 610 and 770 sure does tend to make lacquer-clad copper get a whole lot hotter ... 100-150 volts (depending on drop at the shoes) can make a world of difference to traction motors ... all depends on how good the lacquer is. And as to tractive effort, electric motors tend to want to center on a specific wattage. If the volts is higher, they'll draw less current to hit the HP - that means that breakdown of the insulation is a factor. At lower voltage than expected, they'll draw more amps and that means more burning of the surface of the brushes and commutators. Then again ole buddy, I *know* you know what happens to traction motors when they draw more amps than is desired. Heh. GP's, eh?
This is true, as is all off the above. I'm kind of curious how or when the increase to 750 came about, I assumed that when the M1 came out all was designed to be compatible with the existing system which was still a host to the old equipment. Guess I lost track of it then, but never followed LIRR much nor Metro North although I was and still am a New York Central fan of sorts, mostly for the electric division. Hey, guy...do you remember the PUT at all? Until I was 8 in 1951 they still had steam.
Luckily diesel locomotives have ammeters, on your GP comment. Likewise rules are in effect regarding maximum amperage, of course on later loco's the red line on the meter tells when enough is enough.A life of cliffhangers! How many almost-didn't make it over Bozeman pass trips or how many almost didn't make it over the bridge or thru a river tunnel trips. And on some lines (especially the l970"s IRT) one tain was as lousy as the other.
I know 700 was the norm on the Central's third rail and it got raised to I *think* 770 when Metro North came about. I'm pretty sure (though can't prove since I never broke out a voltmeter) that the LIRR is up there too since the cars are pretty much the same. And yeah, I really have put a test probe to third rails just to see what was there. I mean ... after playing with color TV sets that have 25kV, 35kV or higher on the picture tube, 600-800 ain't such a rush as far as voltmeters go.
By "PUT" I assume you mean the Putnam line? If not, tell me more. And yeah, nothing more thrilling than watching the old ammeter wanting to go around the dial another time when trying to yank yourself up to a bit of speed, hoping, praying that it would drop to something reasonable before you smelled smoke. The shop ain't too happy when you return a loco with motors that ain't there anymore. But somehow if you DO make it back with all the motors there, they figure you can pull ten more cars up that hill next time. :)
Kev, you are almost on the money regarding the LIRR voltage. It is 750.
A big MOOOO... and a HAPPY ST. PATTY's DAY TO YA, M' LAD. :-)
BMTman
Kiss me! I really *am* Irish ... that's why I've put down the beers for 24 hours. Heh. And when ya kiss me, please do put down that red wire first. 770, 750, still gonna toast a subway car. Looks like Branford ain't gonna be buying any M-1's. :)
LOL!!
I just did an Irish jig and I ain't Irish!!! (Black Irish, maybe?)
;-)
BMTman
Sure hope you prohibited flash photography before you started ... now if you can finish off a bottle of Irish Mist, I'll be proud of ye, son. Heh. But it's OK, everybody's Irish today and tomorrow, the hangover. Just don't let Rudy catch ya at it. He's NEVER Irish. :)
Can't a variable, active element solid state droping resistor (connected in series to the tractions) be used to prevent any possible overload?
That's beyond me. That's one for Jeff H.
BMTman
The answer is YES, but it'd get MIGHTY warm. And now for the good news ... CHOPPERS ... yes, solid state choppers would be able to handle it ... so chances are the lowly 142's wouldn't have a big problem with it if the higher voltage is within their design range.
And no, I don't want to read "put them on the LIRR" ... heh.
Where electric MU cars are concerned there have been overload relays that would drop out and have to be reset (all by a reset switch inthe operating car) easily enough ever since the days of the original IRT and probably sooner yet..one of the original problems with trolleys was abuse by the motorman burning motors up. I have no idea about excess voltage.
As for locomotives I ran evrything from original F's and GP's thru the newest models of the late 90's and don't know of any that would drop out or automatically limit amperage unless there's something I don't know about the newest ones. You could overload them and burn them up. But usually there were overload ratings between 5 minutes and an hour that you could get away with.
Selkirk was right make it with a drag once and they add more tonnage. Freight railroading stinks but it sure pays.
Sure pays, especially when you get the maximum number of hours in a "day" because you got to idle for hours waiting your turn to go before going dead on hours. Lots of "engineers" pray for idiots in dispatch, knowing they can take a picnic basket with them for the siding. :)
The major lines train/ engine crews are still getting all the penalties they enjoyed for years. We had our share of idiot dispatchers, I know what you mean but never got a single penalty, on Montana Rail Link. Bad call, 2 AM train not even into your initial terminal yard or made up, whatever. No initial, no final. Just have 12 hours to work, flat rate for the job. No pay for terminal switching, etc. But I won't complain about a $20-21 hourly wage for engineer...in Montana your choice is to wash dishes or flip burgers for a living.Don't think about farming or ranching, you'll die waiting for your "ship" to come in, [in this case a $40,000 pickup..haha]
Land yachts can be fun if you can afford one. But here in the east (and as I hear standard in the midwest also) is that you do a lot of sitting waiting your turn to go when yards are stacked up like airports. When CSX and NS first took over Gonerail, guys'd be sitting right at the homeball looking at their car in the parking lot waiting to time out. No cab rides there. :)
1) Does the width of B-division subway trains match with LIRR tracks and platforms? i.e Can the A tracks be extended to meet the LIRR at Far Rockaway?
B Division trains could operate on the LIRR in terms of tracks and platforms. The reverse isn't true because LIRR cars are longer. LIRR voltage is higher but this is not insurmountable. The signals systems are different. Subway trains would have to be able to use LIRR ATC. And FRA regulations prevent the two systems operating together. There are also labor issues. Plus, long standing regulations prevent the subway operating outside city limits.
2) Is the Metro North and LIRR the same in terms or dimensions?.
Yes. But MNRR uses underrunning third rail. Compromise shoes could be used.
Cross train crews for the Dual use segment.
Can LIRR trains operate with ATC disabled, if so disable on this portion and equipement modify for subway signals.
Obtain waiver from FRAs.
Re-examine regulations preventing subway operation beyond city limits and Amend these regulations.
We are talking service here. Service to the people. We are Not justifying the existance of this agency or that committee.
We have assets that are underused or wasting away.
We have a very definite need for an airport to airport service, and airport to city center service.
The present and past city and state administrations spend more on studies to justify their DO NOTHING policy. Waiting for the P.A. of NJ and NY to cleanup its mess and deny the tax payers a reasonable service that has connectivity.
avid
Are we talking about all this for the Rockaways?
No disrespecto to the people in the Rockaways, but I think there are areas of the City where you could get much more bang for your buck.
Between here and there is everyting in between. So we would not be speaking only of the Rockaways.
Along the way is an exit/entrance to JFK/The rest of Humankind.
If one were to lean to the right as one travels northwest, we would stumble to the front door of LGA/Domestic Humankind.
We have here an abandoned expressway that links JFk , LGA, GCS and with support from New Jersey and Conneticut they too would have access to three major airports of the world.
There are just a few self serving little empires that have to yield to a coaltion.
Call it Joint Service , change where you must. The whole will be greater than the sum of its parts.
avid
[We have here an abandoned expressway that links JFk , LGA, GCS and with support from New Jersey and Conneticut they too would have access to three major airports of the world.
There are just a few self serving little empires that have to yield to a coaltion.]
I think you've said it all. Let's see -- JFK Airtrain, using people mover technology to nowhere. LGA subway, but the PA won't let them take it to the terminals. Newark monorail, which will never go anywhere even if they get it working again. Bozo the Clown couldn't have come up with this.
Meanwhile, we could have high speed service connecting all three major airports to Midtown and Lower Manhattan using *existing infrastructure,* with convenient transfers to Amtrak, the commuter lines, the bus terminal, and every subway and PATH line in the City (I think--am I missing any?)
But even if you dealt with the FRA (and I think there are ways to work around the FRA regs without getting a dispensation, forex by providing subway-style FRA service on underulitized commuter tracks and giving over some underutilized subway lines to the commuter RR) you end up having to deal with the LIRR, MN, NJT, the PA, NYT, Amtrak, the airlines, NIMBY's, about a zillion unions, the Dogcatcher's Association of Staten Island, and worst of all the politicians. About the only people who don't count are the public.
"I think you've said it all. Let's see -- JFK Airtrain, using people mover technology to nowhere. LGA subway, but the PA won't let them take it to the terminals. Newark monorail, which will never go anywhere even if they get it working again. Bozo the Clown couldn't have come up with this."
You wouldn't happen to be Bozo's brother Sid, would you? You know, the one who thought everyone was a complete moron except himself? If only the world would let him be in charge - everything would be just perfect, wouldn't it?
Until Sid takes over, I'm looking forward to riding these new services. I predict they'll work out a lot better than Sid would have us believe...
NYTA Bus Routes Q5 & Q85 Go Outside The City Limits With Passengers To Green Acres Mall In Valley Stream, Nassau County, Long Island (Approx 2 Miles East Of NYC/Nassau County Line)! Why Cant NYTA Subways Go Outside City Limits?
I'm not familiar with the legal environment.
I know that MTA can run a city bus outside of city limits without the permission of the nextr county (but they usually don't because it's not a good idea to make enemies unnecessarily).
Where's our attorney (John Bredin, Esq.)?
Also the Q46 runs into the Village of Lake Success to service the main entry of Long Island Jewish Medical Center (even though most of the hospital is in Queens). And the Bx16 runs along Mundy Lane along the Bronx-Mount Vernon border. Therefore westbound busses (which are travelling physically north at that time) make stops in the City of Mount Vernon.
Then there are the X17 and X31, which run inbound from Staten Island to Manhattan via the Goethals Bridge, NJ TPK and Lincoln Tunnel instead of the usual Verazanno Bridge, Gowanus Expressway and Battery Tunnel through Brooklyn.
Of course, either way, busses don't make any stops along those routes.
And actually, it has nothing to do with anger, it has to do with subsidies. MTA LI Bus is only a contract carrier for Nassau County Busses, therefore all subsidies come from the county. The City of Long Beach runs its own service and refuses to subsidize LIB, thus LIB can only stop to discharge passengers going towards the Long Beach terminal, and only to board passengers going away from it while in the city. Same thing with Queens.
NYCTA is owned by the MTA outright, and receives state funding, they can do what they want within the twelve county MTA region. There was even a recent proposal to extend a certain TA bus to downtown Mount Vernon, which the mayor of Mount Vernon and everybody liked. I don't recall why it was killed, but it was the TA executives that decided against it.
[You wouldn't happen to be Bozo's brother Sid, would you? You know, the one who thought everyone was a complete moron except himself? If only the world would let him be in charge - everything would be just perfect, wouldn't it?]
Ron,
I think that's both uncalled for and unfair. I did neither said nor implied that anyone was a moron, or that the "world would be perfect if I were in charge." You know damn well, or you should, that government combines the competent and incompetent, the honest and the corrupt, in a system that typically gives too much power to the latter. Decisions are made on the basis of self-interest rather than the public good; but whereas in private enterprise self-interest is guided by market forces, in government it's guided by factors less admirable.
When a seedy pol can block airport access to LaGuardia because a few of his constituents' windows would rattle, when the Port Authority can overlook New York City's needs in favor of New Jersey's because New York doesn't yell enough, when a bottom-feeding governor can favor the needs of a few suburbanites over the needs of ten times as many City residents, things will not be done in a particular bright way.
I'm someone who doesn't work in government. I don't think I could. I do project engineering for a living, and get a kick out of doing the seemingly impossible as efficiently and elegantly as humanly possible. Neither I nor the people I work for build tunnels at vast expense and leave them empty for forty years. Neither I nor the people I work for take a quarter of a century to repair a broken bridge. Neither I nor the people I work for spend three times as much as private enterprise to erect a building. Neither I nor the people I work for use two people to run a train when one would do, or pay people to watch turnstyles where machines would serve just as well, or quote a $1.3 billion/mile price tag for a Second Avenue subway when the most expensive subway yet constructed in the country cost only a fifth that. And neither I nor the people I work for take over a subway system that was built by or in competition with private enterprise over a 40 year period and manage to actually shrink it over the next 60.
So yes, the Airport access mess could have been designed by Bozo the Clown, except perhaps for the $1.5 billion Train to Nowhere, which would embarass even a retarded horseradish. And yes, if it were up to me I could do infinitely better -- but so could just about anybody from Ralph the Elevator Operator to Petunia the Recent Escapee from the Psychiatric Institute.
Before your (usually) welcome and interesting voice appeared on this group, I was a regular here, but I left precisely because of that discrepancy. There's no shortage of good ideas here and elsewhere. It's just that there are too many greedy interest groups and feuding jurisdictions in the way, and after a while you realize that whatever the ideas, virtually nothing will actually get done -- which makes it a bit of a bummer.
I'm someone who doesn't work in government. I don't think I could. I do project engineering for a living, and get a kick out of doing the seemingly impossible as efficiently and elegantly as humanly possible. Neither I nor the people I work for build tunnels at vast expense and leave them empty for forty years. Neither I nor the people I work for take a quarter of a century to repair a broken bridge. Neither I nor the people I work for spend three times as much as private enterprise to erect a building. Neither I nor the people I work for use two people to run a train when one would do*, or pay people to watch turnstyles where machines would serve just as well, or quote a $1.3 billion/mile price tag for a Second Avenue subway when the most expensive subway yet constructed in the country cost only a fifth that. And neither I nor the people I work for take over a subway system that was built by or in competition with private enterprise over a 40 year period and manage to actually shrink it over the next 60.
You forgot to add a few things:
Neither you nor the people you work for take 10 years to build 1,500 feet of subway tunnel (the 63rd Street connection to Queens Boulevard).
Neither you nor the people you work for take 14 years to build a public school (LaGuardia H.S. on the west side).
Neither you nor the people you work for take three years to renovate a skating rink and have to be bailed out by a private developer (Wollman Rink).
Neither you nor the people you work for take a year to fix a broken escalator (too many examples to list**).
It's really pathetic how the city has completely lost anything remotely resembling a "can-do" spirit. At this point, I simply don't see how anything can be changed.
* = or maybe zero.
** = anyone want to guess when the damaged escalator at Cortlandt Street will be back in business? My guess is August 2002.
Not the City per se, but greedy contractors who know how to bilk the system...mor often than not.
BMTman
"Neither you nor the people you work for take 10 years to build 1,500 feet of subway tunnel (the 63rd Street connection to Queens Boulevard). "
Wrong, and unfair. Leave the cheap shots to politicians who need 30-sec sound bites.
New York City needed (much more than)ten years to get its entire act together, of which capital projects were one piece of the puzzle.
The connector took six years to build, involved a nearly complete rebuild of the entire 3 mile line, and involved creating a 6-track subway under Northern Blvd. All while preserving subway service during that time. The original work, while not perfect in design, pretty much got done on budget.
[It's really pathetic how the city has completely lost anything remotely resembling a "can-do" spirit. At this point, I simply don't see how anything can be changed.]
I remember when people said there was nothing you could do about graffiti on the trains, or crime, or people who pee in the street. I for one never believed that, and I don't believe it now. If we could build subways in 1910, we can build them now. If we could attract businesses and middle class residents in 1940, we can attract businesses and middle class residents now. But what it will take to overcome a culture where people fight *against* the construction of the world's tallest building, or block an important airport link, or zone some of the world's most valuable commercial real estate to prevent the formation of a new business district, I don't know. I'm hoping that Mayor Giuliani, by demonstrating that things *can* get better if you push against the interest groups, has set us on the path to restoring that old can-do attitude.
I remember when people said there was nothing you could do about graffiti on the trains, or crime, or people who pee in the street. I for one never believed that, and I don't believe it now. If we could
build subways in 1910, we can build them now. If we could attract businesses and middle class residents in 1940, we can attract businesses and middle class residents now. But what it will take to
overcome a culture where people fight *against* the construction of the world's tallest building, or block an important airport link, or zone some of the world's most valuable commercial real estate to
prevent the formation of a new business district, I don't know. I'm hoping that Mayor Giuliani, by demonstrating that things *can* get better if you push against the interest groups, has set us on the
path to restoring that old can-do attitude.
Won't ever happen as New Yorkers are simply too provincial and unsophisticated. They think the world ends at the Hudson, that all the other people in the country are hillbillies who can't possibly pose any threat to New York's economic and cultural pre-eminence. Hence there's no need for New York to actually do anything. Joke's on you, schmucks. Hear those footsteps, getting louder by the minute? That's the rest of the country, what you so condescendingly call the "great flyover," about to trample New York and leave it in the dust.
Won't ever happen as New Yorkers are simply too provincial and unsophisticated.
Yeah, right. This from somebody who would LIKE to move to Texas.
They think the world ends at the Hudson
It does, however it starts over again at the Delaware, and there are plenty of pockets (in fact, most places) in which the world starts again.
that all the other people in the country are hillbillies who can't possibly pose any threat to New York's economic and cultural pre-eminence.
Well, they're not hillbillies in the "Cletus, the Slack-jawed Yokel" sense, but most of the fastest growing cities in America are growing that fast because of suburban subhuman growth. Instead of just having a concentric wasteland surrounding the city, the whole city is a wasteland.
Anybody has to be severely ill to want to live in such a mind-numbingly dull area.
Atlanta is one city that tried to rebuild a real city in the middle of the wasteland. The Olympics certainly helped.
Hence there's no need for New York to actually do anything.
While that's total bullshit, New York at its nadir (in the 1970s) was still a hell of a lot better than in wasteland cities like Phoenix that were once places of great natural beauty. But one cannot be satisfied with that, it's only an intellectual victory, not very useful.
Joke's on you, schmucks. Hear those footsteps, getting louder by the minute? That's the rest of the country, what you so condescendingly call the "great flyover," about to trample New York and leave it in the dust.
Then why, hypocrite, do you continue to work in New York City and live in the New York area? Aren't you scared that these imaginary footsteps will trample you? Or are these footsteps just a symptom of paranoia caused by Cultural Desert Disease.
Joke's on you, schmucks. Hear those footsteps, getting louder by the minute? That's the rest of the country, what you so condescendingly call the "great flyover," about to trample New York and leave it in the dust.
Then why, hypocrite, do you continue to work in New York City and live in the New York area? Aren't you scared that these imaginary footsteps will trample you? Or are these footsteps just a symptom of paranoia caused by Cultural Desert Disease.
Because I don't have a choice given my personal situation. My job's located in Manhattan, and I have no desire to leave a job I enjoy at age 43 and after more than seven years with the same company. And our house is in Long Island; my wife doesn't want to leave her job or her friends and the kids don't want to change schools. BUT - if I were an all-too-typical New Yorker, living alone in some tiny overpriced apartment, well then things might be different. And what about all the New Yorkers who don't have jobs? Remember, the city's unemployment rate is well above the national average. What I just don't understand is why people like that, with nothing tying them to the city, won't consider moving elsewhere for better jobs and better living situations.
[Remember, the city's unemployment rate is well above the national average. What I just don't understand is why people like that, with nothing tying them to the city, won't consider moving elsewhere for better jobs and better living situations.]
Has it ever occured to you that those same 'unemployed' people living in the city and supposedly having nothing 'tying them down' to the city, might actually have relatives living here in the city as one reason why they just don't go elsewhere to live?
Also, perhaps they see that NYC -- with all it's ups and downs -- STILL is a place of hopes and dreams and that many of the unemployed or under-employed are hoping that their 'silver lining' might indeed be found in 'the city of dreams'? After all, that's what many of our parents (or our parents' parents) had in mind when they 'dropped anchor' in this great city.
Just wanted to put this thought out there in the forum.
BMTman
Remember, the city's unemployment rate is well above the national average. What I just don't understand is why people like that, with nothing tying them to the city, won't consider moving elsewhere for better jobs and better living situations.
Has it ever occured to you that those same 'unemployed' people living in the city and supposedly having nothing 'tying them down' to the city, might actually have relatives living here in the city as one
reason why they just don't go elsewhere to live?
That's quite true. I guess I didn't realize that.
Also, perhaps they see that NYC -- with all it's ups and downs -- STILL is a place of hopes and dreams and that many of the unemployed or under-employed are hoping that their 'silver lining' might indeed be found in 'the city of dreams'? After all, that's what many of our parents (or our parents' parents) had in mind when they 'dropped anchor' in this great city.
True again. At some point, however, living a bad existence in New York while waiting for one's big break crosses the line from sensibility to stupidity. Obviously the time that it's worth waiting depends on one's personal circustances. It's also necessary to take the expected size and probability of the "payoff" into account. In other words, spending a couple of years barely surviving in New York, working (if you can find work at all) at some sub-minimum wage job might be worthwhile if there's a reasonable chance that you'll be doing very well before long. Most such people, however, would be better off moving to Phoenix or Atlanta, some places like that where excellent jobs are going begging, and immediately being able to enjoy a middle-class income and lifestyle.
>>> Most such people, however, would be better off moving to Phoenix or Atlanta, some places like that where excellent jobs are going begging, and immediately being able to enjoy a middle-class income and lifestyle. <<<
The excellent jobs that are going begging require some kind of special skills to fill them. The unemployed in New York by and large do not have those skills. There is nowhere in the country that there is a great need for unskilled or semi-skilled labor.
Tom
Most such people, however, would be better off moving to Phoenix or Atlanta, some places like that where excellent jobs are going begging, and immediately being able to enjoy a middle-class income and lifestyle.
The excellent jobs that are going begging require some kind of special skills to fill them. The unemployed in New York by and large do not have those skills. There is nowhere in the country that there is a great need for unskilled or semi-skilled labor.
I suppose that's so. Most of the unemployed in New York, especially the chronically unemployed, are unskilled and uneducated. People who do have special skills can get jobs easily enough. But what about the unskilled/uneducated elsewhere in the country, especially the Sun Belt? If there isn't much need for their labor, then why is the overall Sun Belt umemployment rate so much lower? Do people in the Sun Belt tend to be better educated and skilled than New Yorkers?
>>> why is the overall Sun Belt umemployment rate so much lower? Do people in the Sun Belt tend to be better educated and skilled than New Yorkers? <<<
The Sun Belt cities are newer than NYC and grew from rural areas with high tech businesses attracting the skilled workers from other areas. NYC and other Northern Rust Belt cities had a long tradition of having the factories with unskilled workers, when the factories left, the workers were left over. This effect could last for generations if the children of the unskilled workers are not motivated to get further education and leave the familiar area and social support structure (family and friends) they grew up with.
Tom
[This effect could last for generations if the children of the unskilled workers are not motivated to get further education and leave the familiar area and social support structure (family and friends) they grew up with.]
I suspect that for the unskilled the alternatives are actually bleaker elsewhere. A sweatshop job may not seem like much, but what is someone who can't speak a word of English to do in a suburb?
Also, New York has more generous social services, public transportation, and no exclusionary zoning. There are lots of low level jobs going begging in the suburbs, but many poor people can't afford to live there.
Another factor is that the unemployed in the Sun Belt are not as 'visible' as the unskilled/unemployed in Northern cities, urgo they go 'uncounted'.
This is similar to the preception of the 'Welfare Queen' of NY/NJ area (i.e., where a minority woman w/3 or more children is shown as representative of the average welfare recipient). Well, that might be true in North eastern cities, but statistically -- and if a National outlook on this situation were done -- things would look much differently. Poor whites in the south and midwest are heavily dependant on welfare, yet are not 'advertised' by media as such.
BMTman
Holds true in the northeast as well - the majority of welfare recipients nationwide (AND HERE) are WHITE. Black families may not make as much money as whites do but in general, the old ways of the plantations still remain culturally where one mother will take care of the babies of the sisters, grandmas will raise grandchildren so that the mother has a chance of earning some money and in general, when some of the family has income, the rest of the family will eat. The "welfare queen" is a political concoction, a means of reinforcing the "us vs. them" mentality that makes it easier for politicians to play their games and for some evil-minded folks to manufacture their own superiority. But there are plenty of real world numbers to support your comment there. And you're RIGHT.
(Another factor is that the unemployed in the Sun Belt are not as 'visible' as the unskilled/unemployed in Northern cities, urgo they go 'uncounted'. This is similar to the preception of the 'Welfare Queen' of NY/NJ area (i.e., where a minority woman w/3 or more children is shown as representative of the average welfare recipient). Well, that might be true in North eastern cities, but statistically -- and if a National outlook on this situation were done -- things would look much differently. Poor whites in the south and midwest are heavily
dependant on welfare, yet are not 'advertised' by media as such.)
This thread is way off topic. I actually have a question -- are LIRR or Metro North cars taller than 12' 2", or wider than 10 feet?
But since its brought up, back in the 1990s, the Republicans made much of how many white people in suburban areas with plenty of jobs were on welfare. It was part of their argument that welfare reform was not race baiting.
Well guess what, with a little kick in the butt most of those white people near jobs got jobs, leaving the black people concentrated in declining cities an even bigger share of the welfare population than before. The majority of those reaching the federal funding cutoff are, in fact, black and living in cities (though the four or more kid thing is and always was a myth). Bad news for the NYC budget.
I thought this was a place to talk about trains,I am a minority that has worked all my life and so did my parents,poor but we never needed welfare.Take the welfare crap off these tracks there for trains only.
Sorry, but I was merely answering to an Off-Topic post within this thread. I did not initiate the Off-topicness.
BMTman
Their are a lot of problems with this thread, its not you're problem, but its a problem that won't be solved on it's own.
[This thread is way off topic. I actually have a question -- are LIRR or Metro North cars taller than 12' 2", or wider than 10 feet?]
Agreed. But I was merely answering an already Off-Topic argument, so don't blame the messenger.
To anwswer your On-Topic question, however, I am not an expert in this area, BUT, if you saw a much earlier post in this thread, I believe I mentioned that LIRR equipment 'rode higher' than 'B' Division cars, meaning that the commuter cars either had taller roofs, or that they rested higher on their trucks. This of course would leave BMT/IND equipment in a 'low platform' position. I could be wrong here, but only an LIRR expert (HELP ME, Bob!) could answer positively.
BMTman
I agree with most of your post it was the truly needy that were cut off first ! finance ( corporate welfare ) reform was where the CUTS
should have been not making the disabled/poor do FORCED workfare-&-then-cut-them-off-to-make-them-homeless, which is now why
you see so many homeless families & the demand for FOOD BANKS at a all time high! So cut of the disabled/working poor first !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The cuts should be in the "WAR DEPARTMENT" where our monies are waisted on PORK like the failed OSPREY project
& Star Warrrs etc. As for transit systems recieving welfare, could any transit system be 100% rider supported anywhere??
When clinton signed the 1996 newt gingrich welfare-deform-cutoff bill it was done so under the lie that these black females were
" leeching off of the system " which is a bald faced lie, everybody knows this & kept quitet !! Corporate Welfare was never reformed!
All transit systems recieve federal & state funds etc, like the school systems.
SA (finance ( corporate welfare ) reform was where the CUTS
should have been )
No, the cuts should have been in both places.
SA (disabled/poor do FORCED workfare-&-then-cut-them-off-to-make-them-homeless)
What they should have done is cut off welfare all together and force them to find a job or starve.
SA (why
you see so many homeless families )
Most of the homeless I see are single drunks.
SA (the demand for FOOD BANKS at a all time high)
The demand wouldn't be so high if the federal government didn't force farmers to destroy part of their crop.
SA (The cuts should be in the "WAR DEPARTMENT" )
Have you read the constitution? The federal government is mandated to provide a national defense no where does it say anything about redistributing wealth.
SA (where our monies are waisted on PORK like the failed OSPREY project
& Star Warrrs etc. )
If an effective missile defense system can be deployed it should.
SA (. As for transit systems recieving welfare, could any transit system be 100% rider supported anywhere??)
yes if roads had to be 100% driver supported.
SA ( 1996 newt gingrich welfare-deform-cutoff bill it was done so under the lie that these black females were
" leeching off of the system " which is a bald faced lie, everybody knows this & kept quitet !! )
Race is not an issue but peope were leaching off the system.
BTw be sure to thank nader for those rooling blackouts
nader?? who like " shrub bush " lost the election? & the reason why we are having ROOLING BLACKOUTS (sir) is because of
our right wing republican nut ex govonor " pedro-pete-wilson !! @ not nader who lost the election with " shrub bush ".......
welfare was turned into a race issue the poor & needy were not leeching of the system, just trying to survive & not become homeless, they are homeless now because thier benifits were cut off !!
No roads & highways are 100% driver supported anywhere & no transit anwwhere is 100% private funded ( name one please )
Starr Waaarrrs has been proven to be a 100% failure there is no defense againt a nuclear war possible anywhere & anytime !!
In a civilized society the welfare & health of ALL of its citizens is considered NATIONAL DEFENSE !!! the united states unfortunately
still has a long way to go to live up to the promises it says its about ! ( I am 1/2 semonole indian ) helping people with FEMA & other
social programs is not as you mis-stated redistributing wealth it just being civilized and moral & decent. The constitution was written
during slavery i do not want to go back to the time of washington & jefferson & be sold from plantation to slave auction !!!
forcing workfare or starve is your idea of inflicting pain & suffering on the those who are the most defenseless & venerable etc..
Again I do nto want to go back to the days of my great grandparents time with the threat of lynching at my door !! ( no thanks )
As for food banks it has been proven that the CUTS in social programs has contributed greatly anong with the rise in the working poor
who need these services that are being maxed out nationwide ( not AGRA-BUSINESS ) as you mistated !!!
I do not see in your post where you got it right anywhere !! Coroprate welfare was never touched thats where it MUST BE DONE !!!
( leave the poor alone ) & get a life sir !! Finally as for transit funding the RED LINE & the TAJ MAHAL mta building was a BIG WASTE
So please remember "shrub bush & nader" lost the ( selection to president in florida by the supreme court shrub bush ) & please do not
ever forget " pistol pedro pete wilson " who has the nerve to be a talk show host on abc talk radio station san francisco KGO810 !!
call him up & ask him why we had " rooling blackouts in california " now we are the LAUGHING STOCK of the world !!!!
>>>I am 1/2 semonole indian ) helping people with
FEMA & other
Salaam: You are half Seminole Indian?
-cordially,
turnstiles
good afternoon sir ! the answer is yes !! thank you ..........SalaamAllah.....
Blacks pay much more in taxes than what is return to them. Plus, blacks are the only group that didn't get respirations for the 400 years of back breaking free labor (slavery). And many whites have a nerve to say blacks are bumping off the system???? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!
N Broadway Line
(Blacks pay much more in taxes than what is return to them.)
so does evrey one else race is not an issue.
(Plus, blacks are the only group that didn't get respirations for the
400 years of back breaking free labor (slavery).)
no they arn't! did the Egyptians ever pay the jews back? everyone is the descendent of a slave if you thrace your roots back far enough. blacks should get no special treatment because they were slave most recently.
(And many whites have a nerve to say blacks are bumping off the system????)
I said race was not an issue. but many blacks were bumping off the system so were many whites hispanics and asians. the sterotype of black on welfare was brough up be people against welfare reform.
no they arn't! did the Egyptians ever pay the jews back?
Just because it's in the bible doesn't mean it ever happened.
(Just because it's in the bible doesn't mean it ever happened.)
True but I was useing that cuz it is a well known example to prove a point.
????? more white is on welfare than anyone else the rest of your post ..........????..........!
What could you re write that for me and tell me what you mean that made no sence
Blacks pay much more in taxes than what is return to them. Plus, blacks are the only group that didn't get respirations for the 400 years of back breaking free labor (slavery).
REPARATIONS (respirations are what you do when you breathe). Name me one person alive today that was enslaved by a white man in America?
Name me one person in the US who has owned slaves.
Also, you're thinking 400 years before the present, African slavery wasn't around in the 1460s.
(I agree with most of your post it was the truly needy that were cut off first !)
I think there were some true believer Republicans who really believed in small government for eveyone, not just the poor, minorities, and people living in cities. But when they finished cutting the poor, and started talking about cutting some more, guess what? They became unpopular very quickly, and Clinton, who cynically agreed to cut off the poor while preserving perks for the real powers in the Democratic party, rolled them. End the Republican revolution. Makes you very cynical.
(I think there were some true believer Republicans who really believed in small government for eveyone)
There are very few Republicans who believe in small government. they believe in less government spending but pass as many if not more dumb laws as the democrats.
[There are very few Republicans who believe in small government. they believe in less government spending but pass as many if not more dumb laws as the democrats.]
I'm not even sure they really believe in less government spending anymore. They just want to spend the money on different projects. That's one of the things that bugged me about Lazio -- his campaign proposals were all about pork at a time when New York State desperately needs fiscal discipline. And while they propose tax cuts, the bulk of their tax cuts always seem to go to the rich! Do we really need to exempt Vanderbilts, Rockefellers, and Bushes from the estate tax?
(. And while they propose tax cuts, the bulk of their tax cuts always seem to go to the rich!)
thats because the rich pay the bulk of the taxes.
(Do we really need to exempt Vanderbilts, Rockefellers, and Bushes from the estate tax?)
They are all ready exempt they have their money trust funds. The estate tax cuts will mainly help upper-middle class small businesses.
>>> They are all ready exempt they have their money trust funds. <<<
One reason for those charitable trusts is the estate tax. Without the estate tax there would be less going to charity and more staying in the family.
>>> The estate tax cuts will mainly help upper-middle class small businesses. <<<
An increase in the exemption to $2 million would take care of these people.
Tom
[thats because the rich pay the bulk of the taxes.]
Which is because they have the bulk of money.
But the real issue I think is that despite the alternate minimum tax the percentage of income one pays in taxes actually goes *down* as one's wealth increases beyond middle class levels.
[They are all ready exempt they have their money trust funds. The estate tax cuts will mainly help upper-middle class small businesses.]
Not as I understand it -- the bulk of the money from the estate tax cut will go to the very wealthiest. There are alternate proposals that simply raise the ceiling from the current $1 million to protect family businesses and farms.
Even if that weren't true, I don't see any justification for taxing hereditary income at a lower rate than earned income. If anything, it seems to me that we should do the opposite!
The estate tax kicks in at $675,000. That isn't rich.
[The estate tax kicks in at $675,000. That isn't rich.]
I thought it was $1 million. Either way, there are alternate proposals that would merely push up the ceiling.
[They became unpopular very quickly, and Clinton, who cynically agreed to cut off the poor while preserving perks for the real powers in the Democratic party, rolled them.]
As I understand it, Clinton succeeded in moving resources from the welfare poor to the working poor. I have a feeling that we'll see further changes once people actually hit the time limit (seems to me we should drop welfare *and* give people jobs if they can't find them, but since no one asked . . . ).
what ??????
[what ??????]
What what?
I'd gladly respond if I knew what you were saying . . .
i am sorry i could not make any snese in your post .........( sorry ).........!
I am not as you mis-stated " cynical " what clinton did was the START of the current BUSH republican revolution the real power
was rightfully pointed out by ralph nader when he said the BLUR between the two parties & same policies of both!!
Who is " cynical " now ?? The republicans are for the very rich & recieve payments from them as well .. They sured do not care
one bit about the working classes of people !!
But since its brought up, back in the 1990s, the Republicans made much of how many white people in suburban areas with plenty of jobs were on welfare. It was part of their argument that welfare reform was not race baiting.
Well guess what, with a little kick in the butt most of those white people near jobs got jobs, leaving the black people concentrated in declining cities an even bigger share of the welfare population than before. The majority of those reaching the federal funding cutoff are, in fact, black and living in cities (though the four or more kid thing is and always was a myth). Bad news for the NYC budget.
To bring this discussion back on topic, I'm rather surprised that most of the suburban whites (and people of other races too) were able to get jobs and leave the welfare rolls. It's long been conventional wisdom that the lack of transit is a major obstacle for poor people seeking jobs outside the central cities. After all, most suburban and especially rural areas have little or no transit, and it's probably a safe assumption that most people who've been on welfare can't afford cars. Something must account for this seeming contradiction. Some state and county welfare authorities have programs to help former welfare recipients buy cars, although it's highly doubtful that these programs are extensive enough to make much of a difference. It could be that the suburban ex-welfare people are taking careful advantage of what little transit there is, possibly augumented by heavy use of carpooling. Finally, and most cynically, it's also possible that more than a few of these people weren't really poor in the first place and quickly dropped off the rolls once the heat was on.
[Finally, and most cynically, it's also possible that more than a few of these people weren't really poor in the first place and quickly dropped off the rolls once the heat was on.]
It's possible to buy and run a junker car for practically nothing, particularly if you don't bother with insurance. I've known welfare recipients who did it. Like everything else in their lives -- food, shelter, clothing -- it's a chancy proposition, but it's not completely out of the question.
Remember, the city's unemployment rate is well above the national average.
One percent is not well above.
And remember, the unemployed group of people aren't always the same people. Only a small number of people cannot find a new job after losing one.
[BUT - if I were an all-too-typical New Yorker, living alone in some tiny overpriced apartment, well then things might be different. And what about all the New Yorkers who don't have jobs? Remember, the city's unemployment rate is well above the national average. What I just don't understand is why people like that, with nothing tying them to the city, won't consider moving elsewhere for better jobs and better living situations.]
You might as well ask the same question of people who have moved to cities from rural areas in many places for many years. Why give up a quaint town or life on the farm for noise and squalor? Yet people do.
People live here in spite of the high prices, the crime, the terrible schools, because it has a lot to offer. Culture is one of them -- not just the culture of the Met or the Philharmonic, but the culture of people who are smart, educated, engaged, tolerant, tough, and (despite what you say) sophisticated. By way of contrast, our newer cities and suburbs strike me as mass produced and drab, the intellectual and aesthetic equivalent of elevator music and formica furniture.
Anyway, I've lived in other places, and they each had something to recommend them, but ultimately I ended up back in New York. The last, San Francisco, was a stunningly beautiful place with polite, laid-back people -- but they rolled up the sidewalks some time in 1910.
Ultimately, it's an individual choice: one place has chirping birds, another cool people, another interesting work, and so on, and you have to make that decision on your own. The thing that I regret is that the choice can no longer be made on the actual advantages and disadvantages of the City, because alone among advanced countries we've chosen to turn our cities into huge ghettos through exclusionary zoning, the abolition of neighborhood schooling, and by forcing them to support the nation's poor. I strongly suspect that with equitable taxation and services, a fare share of the federal budget, a pro-business pro-growth philosophy, and good public schools for middle class children, New York would still be the largest city in the world.
"I think that's both uncalled for and unfair. I did neither said nor implied that anyone was a moron, or that the "world would be perfect if I were in charge." You know damn well, or you should, that government combines the competent and incompetent, the honest and the corrupt, in a system that typically gives too much power to the latter. Decisions are made on the basis of self-interest rather than the public good; but whereas in private enterprise self-interest is guided by market forces, in government it's guided by factors less "admirable."
Having worked briefly in govt, I know that what you say is often true, but not always true. A lot of times govt. does the right thing, or tries to, and its decisions reflect the push-pull of various constituencies.
"It's just that there are too many greedy interest groups and feuding jurisdictions in the way, and after a while you realize that whatever the ideas, virtually nothing will actually get done -- which makes it a bit of a bummer."
The world is not perfect. But some really good things have gotten done - if you choose not to see that, that's your problem.
"I'm someone who doesn't work in government. I don't think I could. I do project engineering for a living, and get a kick out of doing the seemingly impossible as efficiently and elegantly as humanly possible. Neither I nor the people I work for build tunnels at vast expense and leave them empty for forty years. Neither I nor the people I work for take a quarter of a century to repair a broken bridge."
But some in private industry will happily build a car which incinerates its occupants in a rear-end collision; build an elegant building without sprinklers or adequate floor supports that kill people when it collapses - all in search of a profit. But it would be wrong to condemn all of private industry for the greed of some - yet you're doing something analogous to that when you point your finger at govt.
So yes, the Airport access mess could have been designed by Bozo the Clown, except perhaps for the $1.5 billion Train to Nowhere, which would embarass even a retarded horseradish. And yes, if it were up to me I could do infinitely better -- but so could just about anybody from Ralph the Elevator Operator to Petunia the Recent Escapee from the Psychiatric Institute."
That's where I say, "I don't think so." In a vacuum, maybe you could. But as long as you have to consider many constituencies, many problems and, yes, many people with varying skills and agendas, I suspect that you would not make out very well.
I've gotten to know people at the PA. They are not perfect, but are bright, articulate, and forced to work within a fixed budget and do the best they can given political and fiscal limitations and competing priorities. Your comment was one of the most arrogant and poorly thought out I've seen - and I've seen much better from you. If anything earned the "Sid" designation, your last quote certainly did.
Private industry is a different environment. But then again, no one elected you to do what you're doing.
To say that government is inherently more inefficient than private industry is just wrong. Every major corporation has had a fiasco that cost much $$, time, and major embarassment. The problem with government projects is that everyone has his or her say (several times) before it gets to the construction phase. The result is that the project is built using dated technology and the costs are greater simply because of the time lag.
Also, remember that many of the construction delays in government projects are due to the private contractor's not doing their job right.
You're right. There's good and bad everywhere; it's not fair to wrap the same blanket over everybody.
[To say that government is inherently more inefficient than private industry is just wrong. Every major corporation has had a fiasco that cost much $$, time, and major embarassment. The problem with government projects is that everyone has his or her say (several times) before it gets to the construction phase. The result is that the project is built using dated technology and the costs are greater simply because of the time lag.
Also, remember that many of the construction delays in government projects are due to the private contractor's not doing their job right. ]
You neglected corruption, a major factor, and political decision making. Then you went on to mention some the reasons why government *is* less efficient than private enterprise, on just about any project, anywhere. The contractors who don't do their jobs are a good example. A businessman is free to choose the contractor he wants, and you can bet that he'll try to pick the guy who does the job and is easy on his pocketbook. Government doesn't have that option. And when a contractor doesn't keep to his schedule or fix his mistakes, a businessman withholds money. That's standard procedure -- we do it all the time in the projects I work on. Again, not something that government can do, except through complex contractual provisions that can be challenged in court.
Then too, the worst employees in a private business end up being fired, and the least successful companies go bust.
Can you imagine a private business taking a quarter of a century to fix a bridge? A business executive who was responsible for a fiasco like that (and I have seen some fiascos) would be fired so far he'd enter orbit -- and a company that made that kind of mistake would end up on the auction block (and I've seen that happen often enough too).
[Having worked briefly in govt, I know that what you say is often true, but not always true. A lot of times govt. does the right thing, or tries to, and its decisions reflect the push-pull of various constituencies.]
That's certainly true. And that's the point I was trying to make. When I say that the airport access system could have been designed by Bozo the Clown, I don't mean that the people in the agencies who do these things can't come up with better plans. They can. But the plans fall prey to feuding beaureucracies and base political considerations.
[The world is not perfect. But some really good things have gotten done - if you choose not to see that, that's your problem.]
I said virtually nothing, not nothing. Because when I look at the City's transportation network today, it's essentially the network of sixty years ago, stripped of some els and with some minor enhancements like longer trains on the IRT. (Oh, and a highway fell down.)
These things are relative, of course. I could praise the MTA for refurbishing Grand Central, or bringing the subways back from their low point. And I have, on more than one occasion. But we have to measure what is being done against what could be done, too, and on that count I'd say we're scoring about negative zero.
[But some in private industry will happily build a car which incinerates its occupants in a rear-end collision; build an elegant building without sprinklers or adequate floor supports that kill people when it collapses - all in search of a profit. But it would be wrong to condemn all of private industry for the greed of some - yet you're doing something analogous to that when you point your finger at govt.]
Why? I point my finger at private enterprise all the time. If I criticize greedy, scheming, dishonest businessmen I'm not talking about businessmen everywhere, because I've known businessmen who devoted their lives to helping the poor along with businessmen who, quite literally, merchandised death. I'm simply referring to an important trend. So with government.
What I do believe after all these years is very simple:
--Government is less efficient and more political than business. If something can be done by private enterprise, it should be. Not everything can, of course.
--Insofar as it works, the market economy is a wonderful way to let people judge whether something is worth their resources. Subsidize somebody's ride, and he loses touch with what it costs. He's paying anyway--for his subsidy, and the subsidies that others receive--but he doesn't know it. So he's wasteful, like the people in the Soviet Union who used to play football with loaves of subsidized bread.
--Competition is the best means we have to promote efficiency. Government enterprises are almost always anti-competitive.
--Most importantly, New York's government is extremely dysfunctional right now, and that's given the state one of the lowest growth rates in the country.
[That's where I say, "I don't think so." In a vacuum, maybe you could. But as long as you have to consider many constituencies, many problems and, yes, many people with varying skills and agendas, I suspect that you would not make out very well.
I've gotten to know people at the PA. They are not perfect, but are bright, articulate, and forced to work within a fixed budget and do the best they can given political and fiscal limitations and competing priorities. Your comment was one of the most arrogant and poorly thought out I've seen - and I've seen much better from you. If anything earned the "Sid" designation, your last quote certainly did.]
I stand by my comment. In fact, I reiterate it, with what I thought was an obvious proviso that it was not intended to criticize the people who work at the Port Authority or anywhere else, but a decision-making structure that makes it impossible to do things in a way that beneits the public rather than a few interest groups.
Now I'll flip the coin. Don't you think that some polticians are better than others? Giuliani better than Cuomo, for example? And that some governmental structures are more effective than others?
[Private industry is a different environment. But then again, no one elected you to do what you're doing.]
And yet, in some basic sense they did, because the companies I work for produce goods and services. If clients like them, they stay; otherwise, they go the guy -- and the engineer -- across the street.
If you want to know why government doesn't work well in NY, I'd put a word on it -- feudalism. Under capitalism, you get what you earn, at least in theory. Under socialism, you get what you need, at least in theory. I see the point of both. But here in NY, we have feudalism, with entrenced incumbency supported by and protecting entrenched interests, all with a veto.
You want to build a subway? If billions drop from the sky, enough to pay off everyone who might be inconvenienced or is in a position to obstruct, it will be built. Otherwise, why tick off someone to get something that people don't know what their missing. Decent schools for Black and Latino kids in NYC? No moral imperative to so something. Plenty of people to object if you try to get a fair share of funding (ie. other parts of the state) or fair value in return for it (ie. the unions).
Were it not for a few idealistic bureaucrats, the city would keep over and die. Why do bureacrats make decisions? Because pols won't. They do deals. When a decision has to be made, they'd just as soon do nothing.
[If you want to know why government doesn't work well in NY, I'd put a word on it -- feudalism. Under capitalism, you get what you earn, at least in theory. Under socialism, you get what you need, at least in theory. I see the point of both. But here in NY, we have feudalism, with entrenced incumbency supported by and protecting entrenched interests, all with a veto.
You want to build a subway? If billions drop from the sky, enough to pay off everyone who might be inconvenienced or is in a position to obstruct, it will be built. Otherwise, why tick off someone to get something that people don't know what their missing. Decent schools for Black and Latino kids in NYC? No moral imperative to so something. Plenty of people to object if you try to get a fair share of funding (ie. other parts of the state) or fair value in return for it (ie. the unions).
Were it not for a few idealistic bureaucrats, the city would keep over and die. Why do bureacrats make decisions? Because pols won't. They do deals. When a decision has to be made, they'd just as soon do nothing.]
Good point.
My mother worked for the Department of the Aging for many years, and I remember the cries of despair from the people who worked there when the political decisions came down and wrecked what they were trying to do.
So the question then becomes why NY's government is so much worse than elsewhere.
(So the question then becomes why NY's government is so much worse than elsewhere.)
NY State is no worse that other places with one-party rule. The problem is the Democrats control some parts of the state, the Republicans other parts, and ballot access scams prevent primary challenges and challenges from independent candidates. Ergo, no competition for office.
Combine perpetual incumbency with population turnover -- the politicians reflect the attitudes and defend the interests of those moving out, not those moving in -- and you can see why the future is such a low priority in NYC.
Heck, all those immigrants can't even vote, and yuppies passing through don't concern themselves with boring issues of spending priorities, public finance, and public managment. Yuppies, immigrants, and new business owners are about the most screwed people in the City. The City is still worth going to, even with bad government. Upstate isn't, so no one is willing to move there and become a cash cow.
NY State is no worse that other places with one-party rule. The problem is the Democrats control some parts of the state, the Republicans other parts, and ballot access scams prevent primary challenges and challenges from independent candidates. Ergo, no competition for office.
If the voters simply would wise up to this fact, and engage in a bit of ticket-splitting, things would be different. But too many people are sheep.
Combine perpetual incumbency with population turnover -- the politicians reflect the attitudes and defend the interests of those moving out, not those moving in -- and you can see why the future is such a low priority in NYC.
Heck, all those immigrants can't even vote, and yuppies passing through don't concern themselves with boring issues of spending priorities, public finance, and public managment. Yuppies, immigrants, and new business owners are about the most screwed people in the City. The City is still worth going to, even with bad government. Upstate isn't, so no one is willing to move there and become a cash cow.
Again, I can't blame the politicians as much as I blame the voters (except for this vote-less immigrants.
[NY State is no worse that other places with one-party rule. The problem is the Democrats control some parts of the state, the Republicans other parts, and ballot access scams prevent primary challenges and challenges from independent candidates. Ergo, no competition for office.]
But while the senate and assembly have been stuck in one party ruts for years, the governorship hasn't people kicked out Cuomo, but the man they got was no better for the state. I think people are really frustrated at this point -- at the state level it doesn't seem to matter which party they choose.
Time for Governor Giuliani, I think! Too bad the man can't be cloned.
>>Time for Governor Giuliani, I think! Too bad the man can't be cloned<<
Clone him?!
Hell, I wanna get rid of the one that we have now!!
Yeah, but Governor Rudy still would have to deal with a Democratic Assembly.
[Yeah, but Governor Rudy still would have to deal with a Democratic Assembly.]
And the Republican one as well, which is just as spoils oriented. But the Governor has a good deal of power, and, well, Giuliani's the master of jawboning -- I imagine the assembly would have to meet him at least half way. After all, Pataki was successful at imposing his cuts, back in the very beginning when he was making cuts instead of handing out pork . . .
(After all, Pataki was successful at imposing his cuts, back in the very beginning when he was making cuts instead of handing out pork .)
Some success. He made cuts at New York City, and handed out pork everywhere else. As opposed to Democrats, who raise taxes in New York City, and hand out pork everywhere.
[He made cuts at New York City, and handed out pork everywhere else. As opposed to Democrats, who raise taxes in New York City, and hand out pork everywhere.]
Didn't he cut funding for SUNY? Or did that just affect City College?
[Clone him?!
Hell, I wanna get rid of the one that we have now!!]
That's the beauty of politics . . .
Slap yourself for that one. Last thing upstate needs is another tinhorn dictator. Even IF he made the trains run on time. I only wish Bloomberg would skip the dead end job as mayor of NYC and just run for governor ... what upstate needs (so NYC doesn't have to pay for OUR welfare costs) is someone with enough foresight to resurrect the economy up here and the wherewithall to press for modernization, especially of our hopeless telecommunications infrastructure and apply a bit of business sense and cunning that would attract jobs.
Rudy did well ONLY because the economy was on the upswing while he was in office. Dinkins would be sitting pretty after the past 8 years too ... Dinkins' problem was the bad economy that others have described in other threads here (Connecticut recession, etc) ... had Rudy been mayor back then, he would have met the same fate as Dave Dinkins I would bet. But please, last thing we need up here is Herr Mayor. He would have lost the senate race had he remained. Just a thought.
Last thing upstate needs is another tinhorn dictator. Even IF he made the trains run on time. I only wish Bloomberg would skip the dead end job as mayor of NYC and just run for governor ... what upstate needs (so NYC doesn't have to pay for OUR welfare costs) is someone with enough foresight to resurrect the economy up here and the wherewithall to press for modernization, especially of our hopeless telecommunications infrastructure and apply a bit of business sense and cunning that would attract jobs.
Here's my idea for revitalizing Upstate (not that it's anything but pure fantasy). Redraw state boundaries so that New York State consists only of the counties now constituting the NYC metro area. In other words, the state would run no farther north than Orange and Dutchess counties. The rest of Upstate would become part of Pennsylvania. Don't laugh, Pennsylvania has a dynamic, pro-business Republican governor in Tom Ridge, who's doing an excellent job with the state's economy. He's just the sort of person who could pull off a real turnaround with Upstate.
Heh. Something we agree on (on the NYC/upstate) basis with the exception that most of us up here envision something slightly different - you guys being traded to Jersey in exchange for an airport. :)
It's funny - when I lived in the city, everybody pretty much thought everything north of Yonkers was Canada anyway. Heh.
>>>Pennsylvania has a dynamic, pro-business Republican governor in Tom Ridge, who's doing an excellent job with the state's economy.
Pete: I still remember Pennsylvania's previous governor (until 1994), Robert Casey, the dynamic, pro-life(!?) moderate Democrat. Definitely a distinct personality.
-cordially,
turnstiles
[Slap yourself for that one. Last thing upstate needs is another tinhorn dictator. Even IF he made the trains run on time. I only wish Bloomberg would skip the dead end job as mayor of NYC and just run for governor ... what upstate needs (so NYC doesn't have to pay for OUR welfare costs) is someone with enough foresight to resurrect the economy up here and the wherewithall to press for modernization, especially of our hopeless telecommunications infrastructure and apply a bit of business sense and cunning that would attract jobs.
Rudy did well ONLY because the economy was on the upswing while he was in office. Dinkins would be sitting pretty after the past 8 years too ... Dinkins' problem was the bad economy that others have described in other threads here (Connecticut recession, etc) ... had Rudy been mayor back then, he would have met the same fate as Dave Dinkins I would bet. But please, last thing we need up here is Herr Mayor. He would have lost the senate race had he remained. Just a thought.]
I think Giuliani is just about the only politician I've ever seen who actually made a real difference! The change in the City has been spectacular, and it had to do with a lot more than economic luck -- it hasn't been matched by other cities, although some of his initiatives have been widely imitated with good results.
I recall reading an article about the fact that conditons had gotten so bad in Greenwich Village that shops were being shuttered. And they quote someone in the Dinkins administration as saying that it was OK IF PEOPLE WERE PEEING ON THE STREET THERE because it was a tolerant place. Sorry for shouting, but that's how bad it was. Much worse, because people were dying. Hiding in bathtubs during drive-by shootings. Burying their kids.
I'm a lifelong Democrat with liberal leanings, but if tolerance for public urination is what passes for liberalism today I'd rather be just about anything else! Nobody, rich or poor, benefits when you eliminate basic standards of behavior and civility.
Being governor of the state goes beyond local law enforcement issues. That's a LOCAL issue. Up here, you pee ANYWHERE where you can be seen and you do 90 days to a year in county jail for "indecent exposure" whether witnessed or not. Ask anyone who's ever been busted upstate. There is *NO* slack here. None, and no bleeding heart prosecutors.
I won't argue over New York City's lack of "law and order" ... that's not my point. Local standards are up to a locality and not the state. Believe me, you wouldn't want to live under the actual enforcement of law that we have here. Ask anyone who's been up here. We don't take any $hirt here. Unfortunately at times, that also goes for "DWB - Driving While Black" too, but enlightenment is actually occuring up here - FINALLY ... after all, the upstate mindset that's finally dying off brought us ATTICA. Life is VERY straight up here. You won't find liberals on this turf.
The balancing act for all this though is that folks upstate will not tolerate *rude* either and this is where Rudy will die politically. This is also why upstate New York which is typically *so* republican also told Lazy-oh to blow it out his snout. That little number where he browbeat Hillary went over like bitch-slapping a farmer up here. You see, upstate people are EVER so patient, EVER so tolerant, and EVER so polite. But screw with us, and you're gonna go down. Fast.
It isn't a question up here of the "L-word," the "N-word" or much of anything else. Nobody gets away with nonsense up here. Sell drugs, we'll get ya. Harm anyone up here without valid reason, we'll get ya. Do a crime, even passing a bad check, we'll get ya. Spit on the sidewalk, we'll get ya. (assuming there *IS* a sidewalk)
Now ... why is "Herr Mayor" gonna kiss the sidewalk up here? Not because he enforces the law - but because he's an arrogant little sawed off ... (ahem) ... Homey here just don't play that. Hillary came up here and actually cared to hear what we wanted. And, she already introduced legislation that WE wanted ... jobs, working telephones and if we're lucky, indoor plumbing in central NY. (heh) Lazy-oh merely told us that we were full of crap, was rude to a fellow New Yorker and in general came off like an arrogant and petulant child. That don't sell up here, nor are we into this "touchy-feely" nonsense. We're friendly by nature, we care about our fellow carbon based lifeform and know that bears will kill you if they get a chance, everything else is small potatoes. Rudy is NOT what we're into. We're laid back folks who take 50 inches of snow in stride and really don't want to sit back and honor the pompous. If anything, Rude Rudy is about the most pompous act we've seen here next to Padre Mario Cuomo ... and look what happened to him. Then there's the other gasbag, "Honest Al D'Amato" ... another sidewalk act that didn't cut it up here.
Anyhoo, sorry for the lecture, but we folks here in upstate New York really aren't impressed by gasbags. We see them every summer and we rip 'em off. Heh.
[If anything, Rude Rudy is about the most pompous act we've seen here next to Padre Mario Cuomo ... and look what happened to him. Then there's the other gasbag, "Honest Al D'Amato" ... another sidewalk act that didn't cut it up here.
Anyhoo, sorry for the lecture, but we folks here in upstate New York really aren't impressed by gasbags. We see them every summer and we rip 'em off. Heh.]
Then it seems to me that your criteria are wrong. Cuomo talked a good game but did nothing except move pork. D'Amato was a ward politician so crooked he was abhorred even by other members of the Senate, and their standards ain't exactly in the clouds! And Pataki is a D'Amato protege who wants to make good, but can't quite get beyond doing what will buy him votes rather than what's right and necessary.
Giuliani, on the other hand, is a wonderfully effective leader who takes special interests out like a weeding machine. And that's what New York State needs right now, because the people of the state are being sucked dry. It can't be said often enough that New York's tax rates are almost the highest in the nation and it's growth rate one of the lowest. The relationship is not accidental.
Giuliani would take out the pork, to the extent he could, and yeah, a lot of people would scream, because they'd be losing their donut-eating white welfare sinecures. The others will just keep lying to you -- we're bringing this factory here, New York City is the reason your taxes are so high -- until there's no work left at all.
Pataki would have done that too except for a bit of naievity that many have as to how the sausage works up here operates. NYC has a "strong mayor" form of government under the city charter along with "home rule" which means that largely the state has very little say in what goes on down there.
At the STATE level however, the Assembly and the Senate call the shots. Thee governor is a figurehead. Rudy wouldn't last a minute between Shelly Silver and Joey Bruno ripping him new orifices he never knew he had. And he's arrogant which means the legislature would eat him alive giving us a governor as useless as our selected Shrub in DC.
At the state level though, things don't work the way you think. I know. I worked for Paturkey and for Padre Mario, covering the legislature (I built a TV channel called NY-SCAN - look it up) on a cable channel run by the state. Saw more than enough of the sausage works ... Rudy would not survive the meatpacking.
[At the STATE level however, the Assembly and the Senate call the shots. Thee governor is a figurehead. Rudy wouldn't last a minute between Shelly Silver and Joey Bruno ripping him new orifices he never knew he had. And he's arrogant which means the legislature would eat him alive giving us a governor as useless as our selected Shrub in DC.]
You think so? It seems to me that one of Giuliani's best qualities is his ability to get done when he has no power over something and faces one or another hostile group -- the Board of Education, the Port Authority. And look at what he did to the mob back when he was a prosecutor. The man has a real knack for getting things done, because he's one of those rare people who's willing to stir things up to get what he believes in.
Well, run him and we'll see what happens. He won't get my vote though.
Well, run him and we'll see what happens. He won't get my vote though.
Obtain waiver from FRAs
Have they ever given a waiver anywhere?
We have representation to the Federal government. There has been Deregulation in the past. Many things were once virgin, but once or a first time changes that forever!
Foooooooorrrrrrreeeeeevvvvvvvvvvveeeeeerrrrrrrrrrr!
avid
[Have they ever given a waiver anywhere?]
Didn't they give a waiver for SIRT?
The poor PATH people, OTOH, have had no such luck.
Maybe the thing to do is just to start service X and wait for the FRA to shut it down. That would put it on the front pages & force the FRA to come up with a plan to allow PATH-style FRA-compliant mass transit vehicles to travel on both FRA roads and the subway.
I've always said I'd be a one-term mayor, heh . . .
The FRA just renewed the waiver for the Baltimore MTA, which allows operation of freight trains on LRV Tracks. I also believe that San Diego also has the same waiver. The waiver does refer to no joint operations, but that usually gets ignored. There have been reports (and pictures in some cases) of freights and LRVs running together in the early moring hours (before 7 AM). Everybody concerned knows it's being done, but sometimes facts get ignored to save embarrasment.
Fixing subway trains and LIRR trains is a much higher profile operation that the occasional freight moseying around in the early morning hours. And you can't launch a major operation in the hope that regulators will "look the other way."
The LIRR is totally opposed to any mixing/sharing of tracks with another operation, even FRA compliant LRVs.
[The LIRR is totally opposed to any mixing/sharing of tracks with another operation, even FRA compliant LRVs.]
Doesn't this have more to do with bureaucratic turf-protection than anything else? EG, they don't want to give up slots to Airtrain, and they don't want to be pushed to increase efficiency either.
[The FRA just renewed the waiver for the Baltimore MTA, which allows operation of freight trains on LRV Tracks. I also believe that San Diego also has the same waiver. The waiver does refer to no joint operations, but that usually gets ignored. There have been reports (and pictures in some cases) of freights and LRVs running together in the early moring hours (before 7 AM). Everybody concerned knows it's being done, but sometimes facts get ignored to save embarrasment.]
That's interesting. It also bothers me, because I'm all in favor of that kind of versatility (there are several places it could potentially benefit New York), but not at the expense of safety.
Folks don't get to see this particular problem often in the city, but one of the reasons why (there are many) is that in freight operations, sometimes the load will shift on a flatcar or gondola ... it does happen several times a year and a carload of pipe may end up travelling the railroad sufficiently askew (before noticed by crew) to pierce an oncoming train on an adjacent track. Anyone who's run the railroads long enough can tell you of locomotives being pierced by metal from a passing train that catapults right through the cab. A buddy of mine was killed on Conrail a few years ago when it happened to him. His brakeman got away with serious spinal injuries but is at least alive.
While rare, a situation like this where a shifted load rams through the front of a passenger MU train or LRV would be a disaster waiting for Fox News to drone on and on about it for months. Until a crew can see the shifted freight and radio anyone else on an adjacent track, the possibility of something like this is pretty strong and it does happen a few times a year somewhere. I'm sure there are other factors but mixing passenger and freight operations can be risky.
Very good point, Kev. I believe it is the safety-load factors related to freight vs. rapid transit that the FRA keeps the two separated.
BMTman
On four track mainlines, where traffic loads permit, it's not uncommon for a passenger train to be wrongrailed to pass an oncoming freight with an empty track between them where possible just to prevent such a situation. Often they'll stop the freight if it's on an adjacent to let the pax train to pass it then the freight can move again. It's something that happens often enough that dispatchers will try to work it into the plan ...
Now granted, what we were talking about here is a mix of passenger trains - I couldn't see freight in the particular circumstance this thread started with - but that's one of the reasons for the strictness of FRA on shared trackage. Stuff happens, and when geese die, there's hell to pay. It's OK for train crews to die though. Part of the job.
1) Does the width of B-division subway trains match with LIRR tracks and platforms? i.e Can the A tracks be extended to meet the LIRR at Far Rockaway?
2) Is the Metro North and LIRR the same in terms or dimensions?
To answer both your questions: I believe that the width dimensions of NYCT "B" Division cars and the LIRR are compatible, but I that the LIRR cars might 'ride higher' so that platforming for the BMT/IND cars at commuter line stations might be a problem (you'd have to 'jump up' onto the LIRR/MetroNorth platform). I believe MetroNorth and LIRR share same body sizes and voltage capacities, but as mentioned in another response there is the problem of under and over the rail contact shoes. Also, rapid transit car voltage is 600 while commuter cars use 750 so there might be a problem there as well.
BTW, while we're on the subject, there WAS a plan to mix LIRR and subway operation back in the early days of electrification on the Long Island RR. The Atlantic Avenue Branch was supposed to be connected to the IRT at the LIRR Flatbush Avenue terminal. There was an interlocking there that was removed sometime in the late 1920's. And Until just recently the connecting spur was visible at the northern-most end of the #2/#3 train platform (shared with the LIRR). While no full-time revenue service over the connection was ever instituted, it has been mentioned in prior posts that IRT head August Belmont used the spur for his own private subway car "The Mineola" when he had the desire to go from his famed Manhattan hotel out to his racetrack on Long Island.
The cars on the LIRR at that time were smaller than standard commuter coaches and matched the IRT cars of the era (because of the planned subway connection and the fact that Belmont had some holdings in the LIRR). The cars were called MP-41's and were essentially rapid transit equipment. As well, they ran on the same 600 volts electricity as subway equipment. The forerunner of the FRA saw to it that there would be no intermingling of rapid transit and commuter railroad interests.
Hope that helps.
BMTman
I think that the third rail voltage on Metro North is 600, not 750, but that goes back to when I worked on the contracts for the M1 cars.
Are B Division cars the same width as standard rail? They look a tad narrower to me, but I haven't measured them. I also seem to recall reading somewhere that there was a couple of inch difference.
LIRR MNRR and NYCTA are all standard US Gauge.
Standard gauge -- absolutely. Otherwise, how could you get delivery of subway cars on rail lines?
The question is whether the car body on the B Division is the same width as standard car bodies.
Going on whatever I remember from the past and things other people told me which may not always have been accurate..and of course the M1, etc are a newer generation hence higher voltage..anyway back to the original intent: The IRT and IND were 600 volt, the New York Central [now Metro North] 660, the long Island 650, the BMT 550. My guess would be that 600 volts was a pretty basic standard and equipment could be run or somewhat more or less voltage. For instance a train of R32's once ran from Mott Haven yard to Grand Central on a publicity run.(when new) And once upon a time there was a joint BRT-LIRR service to Rockaway which has been mentioned before. I believe it wa s government operation of the railroads during WW I that ended it and urban transit lines were forever cut off from the national system of railroads. I think...
The old timers told me when I was a new conductor/then motorman with the TA that the AB's used to take off like a horse let out of the barn once they went onto IND trackage at Queens Plaza, and conversely when the R1-9 were sent to the Eastern they didn't have anywhere near the life they had on the IND, and word was that the BMT's voltage was only 550, and it sure did feel like less than the IND. So I would guess in theory equipment culd run on each other's tracks, in a way let's say.
I'm not sure even the 3rd rails [other than Metro North] are compatible.A Staten Island motorman once told me if they got BMT cars they'd have to change the shoe beams, yet on sight the 3rd rails look identical. In earl y days the IRT, BMT, and IND did have different contact shoes but whether they could all run on the other's 3rd rail I can't say. The AB or standards did their time on Queens Boulevard with their original shoes.
Width-wise I believe B division cars are 9"8" at floor level and think the LIRR/MN ones are a little wider, maybe l0 feet, maybe a little more. Someone else can answer that. Modern freight cars are 10'8" wide but I don't know if LIRR clearnces are that much.
Metro North volatge is now 730 or 750. Notice that the 1100's are still running with it, which means they must have been recalibrated, or their motors would have long since burned up.
Wiring subway tunnels for cell phones is discuseed in THIS ARTICLE
Peace,
ANDEE
As I found out on my recent trip to Singapore, that system is wired for wireless phone use. On one trip, I'd estimate more than 50% of the passengers (young and old alike) were on the phone at the same time.
Add also Hong Kong and most major European cities.
Am I the only one who hates those contraptions?
As they said with one of the great radio stations on the 1990's
GROOVE RADIO- "Is there any escape?"
That is from cell phones....of course
You just hate them because you RESENT them for not being able to join in.
>>>Am I the only one who hates those contraptions? <<<
The MTA should be making moves to ban the !@#$in' things, not promulgate their use.
There's a lot of money in it, which trumps any efforts to make rides as comfortable and quiet as possible.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The MTA should be making moves to ban the !@#$in' things, not promulgate their use.
There's a lot of money in it, which trumps any efforts to make rides as comfortable and quiet as possible.
This is stupid. Why don't we just ban talking of any kind on the subway? Or lets create subway dress codes while we're at it?
>>This is stupid. Why don't we just ban talking of any kind on the subway? Or lets create subway dress codes while we're at it?<<
Because, use of cells requires doing work in the tunnels. Wearing clothes requires no outside interference.
I'm kind of surprised that cell phone service would require additional wiring in the tunnels given that there's still all that Andrews "leaky transmission line" coax in there now for train radio. It shouldn't be all that difficult to use the same transmission line to add cell service with proper "magic tee" (hams know what this is) connection at the radio rooms now feeding it. And since the TA is down in the low UHF range and cell is in the upper UHF range, there should be no crosstalk between the signals which would result in interference. Are they actually planning on hanging new wire? Why? Or perhaps this is a ruse to get a cell phone company to hang new wire so the existing can be replaced with fresher leaky coax at their expense.
I just hope all cell phone complany's will have ther cell phone service under grond. Like Verizon,Sprint,and many other's.
Dominick Bermudez.
Because, use of cells requires doing work in the tunnels. Wearing clothes requires no outside interference.
No. Because they already have compatible wire with the available frequencies and bandwidth. All you need to do is put the controllers into the radio rooms.
And any cell phone company would love to put their stuff in there and maintain it.
Ssshhhhhh! Rudy's still mayor ... don't be giving him ideas. :)
Intriguing idea. Maybe MTA could designate one car on the train to be a "quiet" car. A futile proposition, of course :0)
Actually, it's easy to implement. Remove all soundproofing!
--Mark
Yes, of course!
Wait a minute. The only soundproofing that happens on the subway is when you go deaf after riding every day for thirty years. Hard to eliminate that. :0)
No cell phones in the subway! I too saw an article on cell phones and it was stated it would be cost prohibitive for nYCT/MTA and a private compnay might not want to spend the time.
Well I'll just listen to my walkman, nothing annoys me more than listening to other people talking to themselves.
I remember waiting at the bus stop listening to someone yakking on their cell phone behind me-
"Hello I'm waiting for the stupid bus. Oh where is the stupid bus. Oh I don't have time to hear your problems now. I'll be home when I get done visting with my friend. LISTEN..."
And it goes on and on, and everyone heard the conversation.
Those damn phones are the beginning of the end for us I'm afraid. :-(
Best weapon is to tune it out. Buy a walkman and listen to soothing music to shut it out.
Or be on an N train of R32's going 65mph through 60th street, the roar should cover up all the yakking.
Unfortunately, technology gives us things that some of us use to annoy others. Cell phones in the system was bound to come sooner or later, and when there is a demand, especially if some revenue can result from said demand, then the utility will be put in place. Look at the bright side, however. In case of emergency, a call to 911 can be made to help someone who is sick or injured, police can be called faster to catch criminals, and fewer people can get lost. There is a trade off situation here, so we sometimes have to take the good with the bad.
My cell phone works in the Metro North Park Avenue tunnel. I think it's because they have phones in the trains that use the same technology. I have AT&T service. I'm not sure if the 34th Street tunnels to Jersey and Long Island are wired.
The tunnels from Penn to New Jersey are not - don't know about the tunnels to LI, but I doubt it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Great. I can see (hear) it now -
Hello, NYCTransit Customer Service.
Yeah, I'd like to complain about a Conductor not making announcements on the 6 train.
Okay, when did this happen?
Just now. (86 St) The train didn't (125 St next) stop at 68 St (Stand clear, please) and the moron never said anything (bing bong).
Are you still ON the train?
Yeah.
Did it just stop at 86 St with no announcements again?
Yeah. How'd you know?
Sir, I could hear the announcements over your phone. Please hang up and listen to what's going on around you.
But all I can hear are lots of people complaining they can't hear any announcements.
no text
Please don't do this... for those of us who read chronologically when you change the subject it makes it look like a new thread.
Just type your comment in the message box okay? Jeez.
LOL.
Alex, that's good one!
LOL!
Is the NYC Subway so deep that you can't get good recception?
We have had cell phone access on the DC MetroRail for many years. The Observer says 1993. That was when Lawrence Rueter was running things down here, IIRC.
You can only get reception along the Contract I IRT.
I once had a whole conversation from the Flatbush/New Lots bound platform of Nevins Street, and JerseyMike can testify that I checked my voicemail from the platform at 96th Street/Broadway.
FM reception is pretty impossible underground. In spots though, you get some radio in. I wonder if there'd be a whole radio market for the subways.
"You got it tuned to Q101, from the dash to Queensbridge, this is your station for the beat of the Q train!
If some enterprising type can see a way to make money out of it, you better believe that it will happen.
All I need is an Optimod processor and transmitter, and some guys can string some copper wire in tunnels and were on the air.
I've always dreamed of running a radio station, yet I don't have the bucks to get anywhere in radio.
But the subway is a whole NEW market. A captive audience. A diverse audience. Alot of money can be made here.
Of course where would the studios be?
OK, I'll need an STL, board, and disc players. Radio engineers please apply here.
Jst when I thought there was one place I could go to escape to constant chatter of cell phones, this. Well, there goes the subway. Soon you'll have a subway car full of people shouting, instead of just a few noisy people. How are you going to use a cell on a roaring subway train? Arggh.
(Just when I thought there was one place I could go to escape to constant chatter of cell phones, this. Well, there goes the subway. Soon you'll have a subway car full of people shouting, instead of just a few noisy people. How are you going to use a cell on a roaring subway train? Arggh.)
I agree. What a nightmare. Self important people saying "Hello, I'm calling to let you know that I'm on the train going to work" at the same time that they do every day.
I'd rather have them raise money by broadcasting infomercials on the PA system.
I agree. What a nightmare. Self important people saying "Hello, I'm calling to let you know that I'm on the train going to work" at the same time that they do every day.
What about all those self-important people who talk to (gasp!) other people!
And they (shudder) look at each other!
Crybabies (I'll drop the word stupid)
>>>I agree. What a nightmare. Self important people saying "Hello, I'm calling to let you know that I'm on the
train going to work" at the same time that they do every day.
What about all those self-important people who talk to (gasp!) other people!
And they (shudder) look at each other! <<<<
They're not yelling into a device like Alex Graham Bell's in the next room.
www.forgotten-ny.com
They're not yelling into a device like Alex Graham Bell's in the next room.
So what? Unless you have a pathological fear of the telephone, that isn't a problem.
This is RIDICULOUS. Do you also have a problem with people speaking? Do you think that should be banned? Do you always use a car or cab so you don't have to listen to it?
Stupid crybabies.
>>This is RIDICULOUS. Do you also have a problem with people speaking? Do you think that should be banned? Do you always use a car or cab so you don't have to listen to it?<<
I can't drive (legally). I don't think that people should be able to use phones on the subway. People who have celleys often use them stupidly
>>Stupid crybabies.<<
Ugly nose-picker (we can all act like we're in 3rd grade)
I can't drive (legally). I don't think that people should be able to use phones on the subway. People who have celleys often use them stupidly
You THINK?
You have the right to think, but you don't have the right to impose that thinking on others.
While we're at it, WHY is it you feel this way, apart from simple selfishness.
WHY is it people need to have constant contact with all their gossip contacts, aside from selfishness. Don't be a wiseass. Everybody hates that.
Why is it always gossip contacts? There a lot of important reasons to be on a phone in the subway.
You just take the bad and ignore the good to butress your failing argument.
"People who have celleys often use them stupidly."
And who made you (or anyone else) bloody Cato the censor to say what is or isn't the stupid use of a phone?! As if the conversations people have on regular phones or payphones are always the height of urgency and importance! Or the conversations they have live and in person on the trains. Pork is right: unless we're going to ban TALKING on the trains, don't single out cellphones as a whipping boy.
Anti-cellphone whiners often pick on the "I'm on the train now" calls as self-important and obvious. But, oddly enough, these callers aren't telling themselves they're on the train, and they aren't telling their fellow passengers. (In short, they're not talking to YOU.) They're telling someone NOT ON THE TRAIN, for whom that fact is actually immediately useful: a spouse who picks them up at the station or puts dinner in the oven so it's warm, a friend who meets them at the station so they can go out for the evening, etc.. The people who roll their eyes when someone on the train calls and says they're on the train are the egotistical ones (to paraphase a once-popular song, "you probably think this call is about you, don't you?") not the cellphone users!
I've always had a bad opinion of cell phones on trains (though I've used mine on a couple of occasions) ever since the time about a year ago when a young woman sitting next to me on the LIRR spent over an hour on her phone obscenely breaking up with her boyfriend. I say "obscenely" because in all that time - and she did almost all the talking - she scarcely spoke more than one sentence without using at least one swear word. It was all I could do to keep from throttling the skank.
Move over Lou Gehrig, her boyfriend was the luckiest man on Earth.
>>> I've always had a bad opinion of cell phones on trains ... when a young woman sitting next to me on the LIRR spent over an hour on her phone obscenely breaking up with her boyfriend <<<
And why is it the cell phone's fault that this woman had such a garbage mouth. If her boyfriend has been there in the train with her, the same words may well have been said. Haven't you ever heard a group of teenagers on a train talking among themselves in loud voices using foul language? You should direct your ire toward the person speaking, not the telephone.
Tom
I've always had a bad opinion of cell phones on trains ... when a young woman sitting next to me on the LIRR spent over an hour on her phone obscenely breaking up with her boyfriend
And why is it the cell phone's fault that this woman had such a garbage mouth. If her boyfriend has been there in the train with her, the same words may well have been said.
Wouldn't have happened. Had the boyfriend been there, he either would have (1) got up and gone into another car to get away from her, or (2) bashed her nice and hard in her face. And let's just say that I would not have been entirely unhappy to see (2) transpire. If there ever was someone who deserved a beating, it was that hateful c**t.
>>> Had the boyfriend been there, he either would have (1) got up and gone into another car to get away from her, or (2) bashed her nice and hard in her face. <<<
That's not very likely if he was too much of a wuss to hang up his phone for over an hour.
Tom
Had the boyfriend been there, he either would have (1) got up and gone into another car to get away from her, or (2) bashed her nice and hard in her face.
That's not very likely if he was too much of a wuss to hang up his phone for over an hour.
Sometimes it's the wuss types who'll snap when pushed too far, then watch out.
But it was because of the cellphone that you knew she was breaking up with the guy...so if she's cute you can say "I couldn't help overhearing...you're pretty cute. Are you free tonight?"
OK, maybe not.
Lets just say alot of the women today are so snobby. It's true no one gives up a seat on the subway for a lady, but the women of today are tough and demanding. Some of the rudest passengers on the subway, those who have pushed me, or yelled move when I couldn't are women.
Well except for the "mystical" girls. To me, only mystical girls from China are cute. Yeah, I guess everyone has their own tastes.
Maybe I'm just bitter because I'm a short guy and most cute women just don't find me attractive. Probably the latter, correct?
I can't explain it but when people are on the cell phone (especially women) they are for a long time and speak loudly, not like they are having a conversation with someone next to them, but like speaking into a radio. And since subways can be noisy, they will raise their voice even louder.
Instead of me writing all that, let me just say maybe people should have a right to use their phones on the subway. But like many modern things today, maybe we should point the blame at the people who use them improperly, not the phones themselves.
Still there's something about a loud, chatty woman on her cell phone that gets under my skin.
And BTW, on cut and cover parts of the IRT cellphones do work, I've seen people on them. And I can get FM reception.
If the TA does put in cell antennas, they should stick them in the deeper parts of the system.
Instead of me writing all that, let me just say maybe people should have a right to use their phones on the subway. But like many modern things today, maybe we should point the blame at the people who use them improperly, not the phones themselves.
:::applause:::
It's not that they use them improperly, they just talk improperly. That is true of people talking to. I don't like people who talk loudly and let you hear their conversation.
It's not that they use them improperly, they just talk improperly. That is true of people talking too. I don't like people who talk loudly and let you hear their conversation.
I don't care much for that either - although if you don't speak at an above-average volume in my presence I'm not likely to understand you clearly (I have a significant hearing loss in one ear and some loss in the other). That said, I look forward to being able to be reached in the subway. I don't make or receive many calls, but when I do get called it is usually very important. And I'll add another benefit from personal experience - not transit-related, to be sure, but one that was important from my perspective - while visiting my grandchildren this past week, we had photos taken at a mall photo studio, and the wait was going to be long, so I remained at the store while my daughter and her husband took the children to the play area toward the other end of the mall. When the photographer was almost ready for us, I used my cell phone to call my son-in-law on his cell phone and they returned to the studio promptly, with two smiling children rather than two crabby ones.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's true no one gives up a seat on the subway for a lady.
Women should get no special treatment. If they want equal rights (and they ought to have them) special treatment makes no sense.
Pregnant women on the other hand deserve a seat.
but the women of today are tough and demanding.
A woman is tough and demanding, a man with the same attitude is strong and assertive.
To me, only mystical girls from China are cute. Yeah, I guess everyone has their own tastes.
That's just your fetish. Ain't nothing wrong with that (although fetish doesn't sound like a good word, don't take it in a bad way).
Maybe I'm just bitter because I'm a short guy and most cute women just don't find me attractive.
You don't need superficial bitches like that.
I can't explain it but when people are on the cell phone (especially women) they are for a long time and speak loudly, not like they are having a conversation with someone next to them, but like speaking into a radio.
Easy explanation. You only notice if you want to notice. You have an opinion of something and will readily (and often subconsciously) discard any situation that goes against that, but embrace something that confirms it.
Lets just say alot of the women today are so snobby. It's true no one gives up a seat on the subway for a lady, but the women of today are tough and demanding. Some of the rudest passengers on the subway, those who have pushed me, or yelled move when I couldn't are women.
On the LIRR, it's been my experience that men wearing suits are the rudest of all. They must think that after a long day shuffling papers (Oh! The exertion!) that they have a God-given right to plunk their suit-covered anuses down onto seats whether there's enough room or not.
But it was because of the cellphone that you knew she was breaking up with the guy...so if she's cute you can say "I couldn't help overhearing...you're pretty cute. Are you free tonight?"
OK, maybe not.
"Maybe not" is the key expression. If I were single, and she looked like a supermodel, I wouldn't have been interested even if she were the last woman on Earth.
>>And who made you (or anyone else) bloody Cato the censor to say what is or isn't the stupid use of a phone?! As if the conversations people have on regular phones or payphones are always the height of urgency and importance! Or the conversations they have live and in person on the trains. Pork is right: unless we're going to ban TALKING on the trains, don't single out cellphones as a whipping boy.<<
I am Cato. I'm censoring you right now.
People can't use regular phones on a moving train.
When you're on the train with someone, talking is fine. But Don't say that maintaning a whole other system of wires in those tunnels is worth it because people can't bear to stay out of touch with the world for an hour.
>>Anti-cellphone whiners often pick on the "I'm on the train now" calls as self-important and obvious. But, oddly enough, these callers aren't telling themselves they're on the train, and they aren't telling their fellow passengers. (In short, they're not talking to YOU.) They're telling someone NOT ON THE TRAIN, for whom that fact is actually immediately useful: a spouse who picks them up at the station or puts dinner in the oven so it's warm, a friend who meets them at the station so they can go out for the evening, etc.. The people who roll their eyes when someone on the train calls and says they're on the train are the egotistical ones (to paraphase a once-popular song, "you probably think this call is about you, don't you?") not the cellphone users!<<
Hmmm. People right now seem to get along ok without having to use cells. So don't bring up that stupid argument. If you're on a loud subway train on a phone with a terrible connection, you're going to be screaming.
>>> People right now seem to get along ok without having to use cells. So don't bring up that stupid argument. <<<
Do they really? Those who do not have cell phones obviously get along without them. Sixty years ago, we all got along without television and computers. So I guess it would be a stupid argument to say those things are modern necessities. One hundred years ago people got along without automobiles, and in many areas electricity or any telephones. We may want to stop progress, but we will be unsuccessful.
Tom
>>Do they really? Those who do not have cell phones obviously get along without them. Sixty years ago, we all got along without television and computers. So I guess it would be a stupid argument to say those things are modern necessities. One hundred years ago people got along without automobiles, and in many areas electricity or any telephones. We may want to stop progress, but we will be unsuccessful.<<
There's a big difference in what you're saying. I said: People don't need to constantly be in contact. You use a payphone, and you're ok. Use the cell above ground before you enter. I'm not saying that portable phones should be banned. I'm just saying that we all don't have extension cords running from our walkmans because batteries don't last long enough and cords are a great new innovation.
What you're saying is similar to not installing telephone lines in a building. Why do these people need their landline phones? they can use a payphone.
Wasn't it Old Tom that posted about how his family didn't have a phone during the War because the government didn't believe in the need of it? He can continue the story.
Since we are NOT in a war time state with rationing, we shouldn't do something just because it's not an absolute necessity. If we have the resources and the desire, it should be done.
And of course, then there's the simple matter of police and TA radios. New wires being installed for this have the bandwidth available for cell phone service. Which basically means most of the investment is complete.
Here's something funny. Lets say we're on a train and it gets delayed and waits at a red signal. No information is announced.
Then some guy with a labtop computer connects using his cellphone and finds out from the web site metrocommute.com that there's a fire in an East River tunnel and all trains are being held. Now that could be neat...
There needs to be (or at least I wish there could be) better ways to transmit information to subway riders. Once the wires are installed the bandwidth is there.
Also cellphone users could dial a certain number for info, or report an indcident. The possibilities are endless. It's just a shame some people abuse them.
With today's technology the NYC subway could do alot better informing it's riders of problems. FM and cellular technology could really help this problem. I'm sure lots of us would like to know why there's hasn't been an E or F at 53rd and Lex in the past 20 minutes, right?
(People who have celleys often use them stupidly."
And who made you (or anyone else) bloody Cato the censor to say what is or isn't the stupid use of a phone?!)
It isn't what they say; it's the noise. Not background noise. Grab your attention and break your concentration noise.
People talk about loud radios, etc. on the subway. I've never experienced them. You may be packed in with all kinds of people but everyone is QUIET. Most people are quietly reading or sleeping or just lost in thought. Those traveling together sometimes talk, but in hushed tones. All very polite, especially at 6:10 a.m.
Compare my subway experience with the horror stories I hear from friends who ride the commuter rail. Their peace and quiet has been ruined by all the loud yakking. I've had a laugh at their expense until now. I'd hate for it to go away.
>>>>Pork is right:
unless we're going to ban TALKING on the trains, don't single out cellphones as a whipping boy. <<<
Actually it's not the talking that bothers me so much, although there are certainly people who should pipe down and be more considerate.
Why do the !@#$in' things have to whistle Dixie or play the Star Spangled banner --loudly-- whenever a call comes in? When Spock was calling Kirk, a simple 'boop boop' did the trick.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Why do the !@#$in' things have to whistle Dixie or play the Star Spangled banner --loudly-- whenever a call comes in? When Spock was calling Kirk, a simple 'boop boop' did the trick.
It's no more annoying than a ring. But what's the difference? Everybody has their own ring and know when somebody else's phone rings and not theirs.
But what's the difference? Everybody has their own ring and know when somebody else's phone rings and not theirs.
Do they make a little gag toy that mimics all the rings? You can play Cell Phone Bingo on the subway.
Yeah, and plus Mr.Spock never had a single dad-gum minute of airtime to have to pay for, to boot!!! :-) Peace and GB, Thomas
It's the beginning of the end. Soon even babies will be born with cell phones already glued to their ears.
I gladly do not own one, and I never plan to.
There was such a thing as reading, talking to other passengers, or listening to music during your commute. Now, everyone has to chat into one of those stupid looking devices. Not only will the chatting noise drive me nuts, but the radiation may be deadly*
*That's not a laughing matter, I think radiation from widespread cell phone use in the metal confines of a subway car is a cancer risk.
And people are sooooooooo afraid of nuclear power plants.
There was such a thing as reading, talking to other passengers, or listening to music during your commute. Now, everyone has to chat into one of those stupid looking devices.
Twenty years ago there were people who complained that people used to read or talk to other passengers before those internal walkmen with their bleeding headphones. You are the same, it's just that you're protesting naughties technologies and not eighties technology. Please don't think I'm trying to insult you here.
Not only will the chatting noise drive me nuts, but the radiation may be deadly*
*That's not a laughing matter, I think radiation from widespread cell phone use in the metal confines of a subway car is a cancer risk.
Total bull. It's already been proven that everybody who died of cancer in the United States in the last fifty years was exposed to "electromagnetic interference" (read: household power lines).
Headphones do not annoy other passengers. I was around
and riding the system during the walkman (obleg: walkman is a registered trademark of the Sony corporation) fad hit and
generally everyone was thankful that they replaced the
"boom-boxes" which were previously being played (radio playing
is a violation, like spitting, but it was rarely enforced).
Maybe some stuffy folks commented on the decline of society as
evidenced by people listening to rock-and-or-roll music rather
than bettering themselves by reading a good book, but no one
was claiming that it was a nuisance.
Cell phones, OTOH, are almost universally acknowledged to cause
nuisance and noise pollution on the commuter railroads. Why is
it so damn important to be able to use the phone wherever you
happen to be? Do people bathe with the phone too?
I think one poster had the best solution: remove some of the
sound-proofing within the cars, and grind a few more flats
into the wheels. Ever ride in an R-10? Let's see how those
cheap 2mm condenser mics deal with that noise level!
As for health risks: Cell phones do not emit "radiation"
in the sense that most people think of that word, i.e. nuclear
particle emission. They do output 600mW (tops) of radio
frequency electromagnetic waves in the near-microwave band.
The primary health risk is to the user whose brain is in the
near field of the transmitter. Various studies have suggested
that this results in localized heating of the brain tissue in
the area, which over a long period of time, it is speculated,
could increase risk of certain brain diseases. This is very
different from the effects of power line frequencies, which are
known as ELF (Extremely Low Frequency) waves. These have an
electric and a magnetic component. The electric component is
only an issue for houses that are directly under extremely
high-voltage transmission lines, while the magnetic fields
are found in every household. To date, studies have hinted at
a weak link between long-term exposure to ELF E-fields and
certain birth defects and cancers.
>>Total bull. It's already been proven that everybody who died of cancer in the United States in the last fifty years was exposed to "electromagnetic interference" (read: household power lines).<<
Are you sure?
Phones send out high powered communications waves. Unlike cordless phones, they have to send out very strong transmissions to reach a tower that will send the signal to a satellite.
Cut to the 50's.
A navy ship needed routine repairs on it's communication antenna. A few crew members were sent up to do the repairs. Shortly after, they felt very sick and reported to sick bay on the ship. One of them died. Turns out that they had never turned off the antenna's signal. The man who died had his insides partially cooked.
Now; boy, check your facts before you start pointing out that people are wrong. Cell phones easily have signals strong enough to cause cancer.
Excuse me, Johns Hopkins Hospital has been doing a study on Cell Phones and brain cancer for 15 years (yes, that's how long they've been around) and has not found any connection yet. The study is still ongoing, and at this point no one expects any radical change in the findings.
Suggest you check out the Urban Legends web site. Betch the Navy story is there.
>>The study is still ongoing, and at this point no one expects any radical change in the findings.<<
Medical Studies can try to link cancer to whatever, but SCIENTIFICALLY, Cell Phones are very likely to cause cancer. Kinda like UV rays can cause skin cancer. Same difference. If a radio wave can cook someone's innards, than surely it can mutate one's brain cells, especially in a big tin can (subway car).
>>Suggest you check out the Urban Legends web site. Betch the Navy story is there<<
Might be. But, It's factual. Our Physics teacher used it to teach us about waves: Gamma, UV, visible, infra red, and radio.
That's a gigantic gap.
It's gamma, cosmic, X-Ray, UV, visible (ROYGBIV, or in this case VIBGYOR), IR, microwave and radio.
[*That's not a laughing matter, I think radiation from widespread cell phone use in the metal confines of a subway car is a cancer risk. ]
Ha-ha-ha. You obviously have no knowledge of microwaves.
Arti
(Not only will the chatting noise drive me nuts, but the radiation may be deadly*)
A sitting within 2 feet of a computer hour after hour after hour exposes you to far more radiation than talking on a cellphone. Being on the same subway car as a cellphone is harmless. Remember subway cars are electronic devices and give off radiation themselves.
What is the frequency those phones transmit? 800, 900Mhz??
Now that it's "digital" I guess it may be different. I know some scanners could pick 'em up.
[What is the frequency those phones transmit? 800, 900Mhz?? ]
1.9 GHz
[Now that it's "digital" I guess it may be different. I know some scanners could pick 'em up. ]
You can't know that as this is not true.
Arti
Scanners actually could be used to pick up certain cell phone conversations - not sure at what frequency. My older son, when he was working as a reporter for a while, covered a story in North Carolina involving analog cell phone service where one local political wannabe was gathering information by monitoring his opponent's calls.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Roar louder.
I agree. Cell phones have become a public nuisance. Some people would consider it disturbing the peace. I was on a bus the other day and I heard TWO cell phones ring. The people were speaking loud enough so that I can hear them. There are places where you can use your cell phone, and others where it is common sense that you should not. Such places include, but are not limited to:
1. Libraries
2. Movie Theatres
3. Hospitals
4. Classrooms
5. Restaurants
and
6. Any mode of conveyance open to the public (including, but not limited to buses, trains, ferries and airplanes)
Using a cell phone in any of the above places and others not listed would be considered a a public nuisance, and would cause other people around the user to tell them to either shut up or get out.
My goodness, this cell phone crase is getting out of hand. One day, I was riding an A train, looking out the pseudo-railfan window on a train of R44 cars. Just as the train left Grant Avenue and went out of the tunnel, I could see the train operator TAKING OUT A CELL PHONE AND STARTED YAKKING AWAY, ONE HAND ON THE CONTROLLER, THE OTHER ON THE PHONE, until the train got into 80-Hudson! What if, for example, the conversation this T/O was having on the phone distracted him from an important transmission on the radio, warning him of something (like "We're switching your train to the middle track") and the train derails at the switch? Use of cell phones (by TO's at least) should be banned as it has for drivers in many local communities.
If it were possible for cell phones to be used underground, it could potentially jeopardize the safety of the hundreds of passengers riding each train. The MTA should seriously reconsider this based on the information above
(5. Restaurants)
If a restaurant wants to allow cellphones they can if they want to ban them they can. if are bothered by people talking on cellphones at dinner don't to restaurants that allow it. Same thing with smoking BTW.
(6. Any mode of conveyance open to the public (including, but not limited to buses, trains, ferries and airplanes) )
If it is privately owned and operated the same that apply for restaurants apply here. If it is publicly owned then cellphones should be allowed it is no the governments business to violate freedom of speech.
>>> I could see the train operator TAKING OUT A CELL PHONE AND STARTED YAKKING AWAY, ONE HAND ON THE CONTROLLER, THE OTHER ON THE PHONE, <<<
Oh, come on. Lets not blame the cell phone for the T/O's lack of attention to his job. I would not be surprised to find that it is already against the rules for the T/O to be making personal calls from the cab, just as he should not be reading a newspaper, doing crossword puzzles or anything else that would distract him from his job. BTW do you also object to the T/O talking with the tower or the C/R by radio when operating the train?
As far as places where one should not use a cell phone, I can understand libraries, movie theaters and classrooms, because in those places you also should not be talking to the person next to you, the ban in hospitals is because of the possible RF interference with hospital equipment. Restaurants are more problematic. I see nothing wrong with carrying on a hushed conversation over a telephone which is no louder than the level of conversation of people sitting at the table in any restaurant, and in places like Mc Donalds I see no problem at all with talking on the phone.
I can see no reason to ban the use of cell phones on a public conveyance or any other public places for that matter. Those who oppose use of cell phones in public seem to be suffering from "cell phone envy" which will disappear once they get their own cell phone.
Tom
The more "Connected" people are, the better. Denying people communication is totalitarian. I'm getting a cell phone now.
right on Brodda!
T.B.
Denying people communication is totalitarian. I'm getting a cell phone now.
Are you saying that getting interupted from your SubTalking is a good thing? Generally when someone is trying to contact you its a BAD thing.
If I don't want to be bothered, I have them leave a voicemail or numeric page, and I can call them back. If they don't leave one, the call wasn't worth my time.
Being connected is not necessarily a good thing. It greatly
diminishes privacy and increases the stress of everyday life.
Soon there is no escape.
Not yacking away at the top of one's lungs into the little
phone while in a confined space such as a subway car should be
common sense courtesy, just as courtesy suggests that you not
fart in the same setting. Legislation banning farting is
not likely to be effective and neither would banning cell
phones from the subway, but simply failing to install antennas
there is a pretty good compromise.
but simply failing to install antennas there is a pretty good compromise.
That is not a good compromise. In that case the anti-phone zealots win, with absolutely no concession to the rational and sane people. Compromise involves concessions from both parties, so that each party can get some of what they want and both sides are equally happy.
Compromise is where both sides LOOSE and the only reason it is reached is because each side doesn't want the other to win.
Anti-cell phone people can only be happy if there are NO cell phone yackers and cell phone people will only be happy if they can yack anywhere, anytime.
In any case it is always better to have one winner and one looser than two loosers.
Well, no... the "phones" would have to live with the fact that they have to wait until they surface or reach a section of tunnel that's shallow enough to get reception, and the "anti-phones" would at least have limited contact with the yakkers.
By not installing antennas, neither is favored: phones can still be used on els and in some open-cut sections. Installing antennas favors phones, just as banning their use or installing interfering devices would favor anti-phones.
Not installing transmitters is the equivalent of banning phones.
just as courtesy suggests that you not
fart in the same setting.
That's different. Telephone conversations are similar to in-person conversations to the bystander, who doesn't need to participate, and therefore must be regulated. Sound farts create the same level of noise pollution.
Meanwhile holding in gasses is not healthy, it leads to discomfort and other problems. The only "courtesy" that bans farting in the same settings are archaic and oppressive Victorian sensibilities that teach us that our body is evil and must be supressed. This must end, we're in the naughties now.
Smell farts however are a completely different story and therefore have to do with available ventilation where crowds are not so thick.
Hybrid farts fall under both categories.
smell farts should be odorous farts, sound farts should be audible farts and hybrid farts should be dual-action farts.
FART is a registered service mark of Freaky Area Rapid Transit.
Welcome to Fart Talk with your host, Major Beef. LOL.
P. S. I listened to Big Ed's tape of old IRT trains, and the center doors really do sound as if they're breaking wind.
I'm getting a cell phone now.
Hopefully from my employer :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Cell phone transmission in the subway would share the same technologies envisioned for the DCS portion of a CBTC signal system. There should be no problem in sharing such a system because the CBTC system would use a fraction of the bandwidth. The only amusing part would be to see how the NYCT would get around having decided to standardize on a untested, proprietary protocol to piggybacking onto an existing, proven and open one.
Oh God no!!!! :-(
I do agree that wiring up the subways so that cell phones can be used is a good idea. However they should provide at least one "quiet " car on each train where cell phones cannot be used which should be the front car of each train so that the motorman doesn't get distracted and so that people who don't want to hear other people's conversations would have a refuge from the other people yakking away on their cell phones. At some or all stations they can also have a no phone zone so that people would have at least some freedom from hearing other people's conversations.
On Metro-North there have been complaints about people yakking away on their cell phones on the train. They too can provide at least one car on each train were no cell phones can be used.
BMTJeff
There are many more noises and distractions for the train operator.
It is completely stupid (sorry, I don't know a better word, I don't want to insult someone's beliefs) to discriminate against cell phone users but not against regular chatters.
If a , who can't stand any kind of minimal nuisance wants a quiet car, people who have greater tolerance for things should have their noisy cars which offer greater amenities otherwise.
If you want peace and quiet, move to a graveyard.
I don't think that moving to a graveyard is the answer. When the T/A wires up the subway tunnels so that cellphones can be used in the subways they should have at least one car of each train where people cannot use their cellphones so that those who do not want to hear people yakking away on their cellphones can at least have some peace. I picked the front car because the motorman is there and there are people who talk so loudly on their cellphones it can be quite distracting to others including the motorman.
BMTJeff
I've seen bus drivers on the cellphone.
[Wiring subway tunnels for cell phones is discuseed in THIS ARTICLE]
Great, everyone else is trying to figure out how to *block* cell phones and we're trying to figure out how to get them to work?
I'm all for it, as long as we have the right to pipe the subway musicians to all cell phone users . . .
the subway isn't a theater. we don't pay $1.50 to get a performance, we pay to get from point A to B. so people have all rights to drown them out with there phones. and if the musicians have a problem with it, then they just gonna have to deal with it.
[the subway isn't a theater. we don't pay $1.50 to get a performance, we pay to get from point A to B. so people have all rights to drown them out with there phones. and if the musicians have a problem with it, then they just gonna have to deal with it.]
I'm afraid you missed my point.
I like the subway musicians about as much as doing taxes.
Applause! Could anyone explain me why should we tolerate that noise?
Arti
[Applause! Could anyone explain me why should we tolerate that noise?]
It's a mystery to me. They're the worst thing on the subways right now. They really scare people away, not just because they're so cacaphonous but because they give the impression that the system is out of control and unsafe.
I know that a court ruled at some point that the musicians were engaged in protected speech (choke), but AFAIK that's not the real problem.
They really scare people away, not just because they're so cacaphonous but because they give the impression that the system is out of control and unsafe.
That is total bull. Only you, with your idealism of a nice sterile world actually believe that to be true.
Name one person who avoids the subways exclusively for that reason? Among people who DON'T think everything should be decorated like in a hospital.
[That is total bull. Only you, with your idealism of a nice sterile world actually believe that to be true.
Name one person who avoids the subways exclusively for that reason? Among people who DON'T think everything should be decorated like in a hospital.]
A hospital? I can think of some better decoration schemes. -- As for those people, I could name quite a few, but it's not my practice to name friends and acquaintances on the Internet. Probably a majority of the people I know, in fact. They don't ride the subway because they consider it scary, unpleasant, or depressing -- and yes, the musicians play a big role in that, and yes, they've told me so. I convinced a woman I know to take the subway with me a few months ago and those musicians -- two of them in the same station, playing some weird Chinese instrument that looked like it came out of Pogo -- creeped her out big time. I had to promise to accompany her on the way back.
So I would have to say that someone else here is indulging in fantasy.
I can only say that you have a bunch of sheltered and elitist friends.
[I can only say that you have a bunch of sheltered and elitist friends.]
They're neither, thank you. They are white and middle class and they have expectations of behavior that are part of their culture, just as your expectations are part of yours. And in case you haven't noticed, the country is full of them.
They're neither, thank you. They are white and middle class and they have expectations of behavior that are part of their culture
What a horrible, bland culture.
I can understand not liking the music, but being scared by it is a different story.
Today there was one of those Chinese musicians at Rockefeller Center. I put myself near a stairway and vowed to take the next train uptown of downtown. This wasn't the kind of situation that demanded an escort, it was completely the opposite. But to say that it drives a large number of people away from the subway? Doubtful.
I'm sure that soon these musicians will use their flatulence as a musical instrument.
It's been done. "Le Petomaine" ... (grin)
[What a horrible, bland culture.]
Bach? Mozart? Beethoven? Horrible and bland? Funny, I would have applied those terms to the stuff coming out of boom boxes and those cars that drive around on Saturday with their windows rolled down . . .
[I can understand not liking the music, but being scared by it is a different story.]
I don't think anybody is scared by the music (well, it is pretty terrifying, but only because we weren't designed to listen to steel drums, violins, and zithers playing multiple tunes at the same time). People get scared because it gives the subway the appearance of being unpoliced and out of control.
[Today there was one of those Chinese musicians at Rockefeller Center. I put myself near a stairway and vowed to take the next train uptown of downtown. This wasn't the kind of situation that demanded an escort, it was completely the opposite. But to say that it drives a large number of people away from the subway? Doubtful.]
Middle class people stay away from the subway in droves. I'd say at least half of my friends avoid it whenever possible: they take a cab or a pokey bus or they walk. The musicians are just one part of it, but they're a significant part, just as the graffiti was some years ago.
I'd say that the friends who live in the City aren't scared of the subway per se: they just find it unpleasant and depressing. That includes a tough friend who grew up working class in Queens, did time on Rikers Island, and looks like a biker (and happens to be a subway buff who knows some people on this board), and a long-haired drug afficionado who lives in a basement apartment on the Lower East Side.
OTOH, it scares suburbanites silly.
Bach? Mozart? Beethoven? Horrible and bland? Funny, I would have applied those terms to the stuff coming out of boom boxes and those cars that drive around on Saturday with their windows rolled down . . .
You never mentioned your middle-class friends enjoy classical music as their favorite genre (I like classical music too), and even then, that has nothing to do with it. If these musicians were playing classical music (which that guy was, one of those songs that everybody knows the sound of, but not the name, I know the name but I still forgot!), then I doubt your friends would like it anyway. If they did it's just a matter of being scared of a certain genre.
I find the subway unpleasant and depressing, but I'm also a railfan and I find it fascinating, so it overrides that.
I think I'm more of a travelfan. I don't care to ride the same line twice, especially if it isn't an el. I like to drive to Manhattan more than I like riding the subway and I have just as much fun going someplace by car or bus. Even more so by car, but a bus lets you look out the window and not focus on driving.
[If they did it's just a matter of being scared of a certain genre.]
It's not a matter of genre. They play everything down there, frequently simultaneously!
[I find the subway unpleasant and depressing, but I'm also a railfan and I find it fascinating, so it overrides that.]
There you have it. I have a friend like that, too. He's a member of the Transit Museum and goes on trips, but he sticks to the bus for getting to work.
>>> They're neither, thank you. They are white and middle class and they have expectations of behavior that are part of their culture, <<<
Despite what we as railfans may believe about the relationship between New Yorkers and the subway, there are some New Yorkers who do not use it.
I met a 77 year old woman here in California and recognizing her New York accent I spoke with her and found out that she had been a school teacher in New York until she retired in her sixties and moved to California. Some time later, I was trying to recall some facts about the subway in the 40's and decided to ask if she remembered the same things I did. When I spoke to her, I was amazed to discover that in the 60+ years (1924- the mid 80s) she lived in Brooklyn, she had never ridden on the subway because she had always been afraid to ride it.
Tom
of course they would think of it. its a good idea. many miss important phone calls underground. many people think its annoying to have phones ringing off the meat rack, but they don't count because they don't have one. they don't know its utility. also, people aren't in a theater so they can use it as much as possible.
However, their is two problems. Even though cell phones of today are made to release minimal amounts of radiation its still a carcinogen, and the lines and antennas created will emmit the radiation doubling it. also the antennas will interfere with radio signals of TA workers, unless they make the wiring all digital.
However, their is two problems.
No, there AREn't.
Even though cell phones of today are made to release minimal amounts of radiation its still a carcinogen, and the lines and antennas created will emmit the radiation doubling it.
That has been debunked time and time again. Not to mention that there are a lot of things with which we interact on a daily basis, all of which are many times more dangerous.
also the antennas will interfere with radio signals of TA workers, unless they make the wiring all digital.
No they won't, just like TV doesn't interfere with radio (except for channel 6, which overlaps the bottom of the FM dial, but that's no big deal), they have different frequencies.
According to the March Mileposts available at GCT the first M7 carbody was manufactured at Bombardier's LaPocatiere, Quebec plant.
Initial order is for 180 cars with an option to buy more.
Delivery is expected to start late in 2003.
Does anyone know if there is a PC street map program that shows subway lines? I've got Street Atlas USA, but it only shows railroads. Hagstrom's 5 borough atlas is the best for rail and subway lines, but it's not available on CD.
I'm not sure about maps on CD, but on the web, you can try the Straphanger's Campaign interactive map.
I know this is off-topic but since TA employees frequent this site I figured it'd be a start. Basic question: What's the relationship between the 57/10 pension and 401k for non-represented employees? Do you get them concurrently, do you have to pay for them together, or do you just choose one? If you choose, which one is better? What's the scoop? Any constructive comments appreciated. Thanx.
(What's the relationship between the 57/10 pension and 401k for non-represented employees? Do you get them concurrently, do you have to pay for them together, or do you just choose one? If you choose, which one is better? What's the scoop? Any constructive comments appreciated. Thanx.)
Talk about a sore subject!
You get hired now, you're essentially in Tier Five. You have to pay in 5.85 percent of your salary, and if you stay more than five years, your money is GONE until age 57, when it will be worth less given even two percent inflation per year. The TA happily points out that the pension is worthless in your benefits conference and discourages you from joining. You have to go back to sign up.
I did a spreadsheet, and the pension is somewhat worth having if you are absolutely sure you are there for the duration. But for the most part, you will by paying in to subsidize those in Tier I, who have been retiring with fat pensions, recently jacked up by state legislation. Not only that, but with recent market declines you probably won't be doing so well in the wage department either, as all public employers will pay for a generous penision enhancement recently mandated by the state legislature -- based on high investment returns. All this was arranged by your union "representatives."
Yes, the ghost of John Lindsay and his beneficiaries haunts us still. Public pensions are one of the great ripoffs of New York, and public employees hired after 1980 are on the losing end.
I was just reading network expansion section of the current Capital Program and realized that they actually have money allocated to BUILD part of the line (off airport section.) There's $645M (almost as much as for 2nd Avenue with no construction) planned. Also money for preliminary engineering to bring commuter rail to Lower Manhattan.
Looks like LGA access has somewhat higher priority than 2nd Ave.
Arti
"I was just reading network expansion section of the current Capital Program and realized that they actually have money allocated to BUILD part of the line (off airport section.) There's $645M (almost as much as for 2nd Avenue with no construction) planned. Also money for preliminary engineering to bring commuter rail to Lower Manhattan.
Looks like LGA access has somewhat higher priority than 2nd Ave."
Wrong conclusion, because you're comparing an orange to an elephant. If you're talking about an extension of the N subway to LGA, then the LGA program is much smaller than 2nd Avenue. It requires less engineering, less preconstruction preparation. The whole project could fit into one capitol program.
Of course, the City Council Speaker, Peter Vallone, is dead-set against that specific alignment. If the City Council follows his lead and bottles up the project, it won't happen. There are several other alternatives, including one that I developed and shared with MTA and Vallone's office and received a positive response. Other derivatives have been developed and creatively discussed by other posters on this site.
Only time will tell - we'll see what happens.
[Wrong conclusion, because you're comparing an orange to an elephant]
Not really, taking account that the whole idea to extend the subway there was Giulianis recent idea. Also, like I pointed out almost same amount of money is allocated, shouldn't 2nd Ave (as you said an "elephant") get proportionally larger share?
Arti
"Not really, taking account that the whole idea to extend the subway there was Giulianis recent idea."
Guiliani pushed it, but the idea's been around a lot longer than that.
"Also, like I pointed out almost same amount of money is allocated, shouldn't 2nd Ave (as you said an "elephant") get proportionally larger share?"
It is getting a larger share. It will stretch over at least three and probably four capital plans. It is a 1 billion dollar item in the current plan, though Kalikow is now going to the feds to get the the bond act shortfall addressed.
And, as I pointed out, unless Peter Vallone's objections are realistically addressed, the current LGA plan is dead in the water. And that means it actually had no priority at all - and Guiliani knows it.
(And, as I pointed out, unless Peter Vallone's objections are realistically addressed, the current LGA plan is dead in the water. And that means it actually had no priority at all - and Guiliani knows it.)
Nonesense. It is fully funded with City money, but will never be approved by the City with Vallone in the Speaker's chair. So it is under study, with the study to be concluded -- some time after the election. If Vallone wins, it's dead. The money will go for more studies. If Vallone loses, it probably goes forward.
1. What, in a sentence, is Vallone's problem with it? (Too many people going through his soon to be ex-District?)
2. What would be the alternative plan?
(1. What, in a sentence, is Vallone's problem with it? (Too many people going through his soon to be ex-District?)
The Astoria line is an El. It would have to be extended two blocks past some low-rise apartment buildings before heading into an industrial area. Thus, some additional residents would be right next to an el. They could be bought out or bought off, and perhaps they deserve to be, but no one has gone there yet.
(2. What would be the alternative plan? )
a) Do nothing.
b) Eliminate all other capital improvements, and build a subway to the airport instead, perhaps replacing the Astoria line. While we are at it, eliminate public education in New York City and build a tunnel to replace the Gowanus Expressway so a few yuppies who bought in a few years ago can increase their property values.
c) Give up the one seat ride, and use City money to build the system the Port Authority is collecting a passenger facility charge for, by extending the Airtrain to LaGuardia and perhaps on to Queens Plaza riding over the Grand Central, BQE, and Sunnyside yard. A transfer would get you to Manhattan.
Larry, as usual, thinks the sky is falling on New York. Larry, the sky is still up there. Trust me, you can still sleep OK tonight.
Now, let me provide Subtalkers with a set of real alternatives - ones which will could pass muster with the city. One of the real problems with the elevated extension is that it doesn't offer East Elmhurst subway service; another is that it doesn't offer most Queens residents decent access to the airport; the last problem is that it is an elevated, and building an elevated through the morass of vehicle ramps in front of LGA is a problem in itself. That is why Vallone isn't the only one who is unhappy( But you can ignore all that, Larry. It obviously isn't important if you don't think it is. :0))
1) A subway line underground north on Steinway Street, east on another venue (such as Ditmars Blvd.), serving East Elmhurst (whose residents need and want subway service), then on to LGA. Queens Blvd. and Broadway riders could now reach the airport. Vallone liked that alternative and sent it along to MTA. Cost: At least $900 million, possibly more, but the city would get two more ADA-compliant subway stations in that deal. And the current Capital Plan would pay for a big chunk of it.
2) Subtalkers have discussed alternatives which include branches off of the 63rd St tunnel. I don't know if this has been discussed at the MTA or in City Council, or if it is just a Subtalk thread.
3) Do nothing (that is always an option).
But life is full of surprises. We'll see what happens.
Did any of you guys bother to read LGA section in the Capital program:
THE PROPOSED 2000-2004 CAPITAL PROGRAM
The 2000-2004 capital program proposes $645 million to complete key elements of the project, including preliminary engineering and final design; construction of the off-airport portion of the alignment, including the necessary line structures, tracks, signals, communications, power systems and other features necessary to equip the alignment for subway operation; and a contribution towards the cost of the on-airport portion of the alignment which links the new rail service to key airport terminals including the Marine Air Terminal, the Central Building and the East End terminals.
The completion of the entire project and the purchase of necessary rolling stock will occur post-2004.
They don't mention FEIS and preliminary engineering being next step one could conclude that it's been done. Isn't Vallone or anybody proposing a different route little bit too late?
Arti
I did read it. The entire project is funded within one capital plan. Construction itself takes longer. The same was true of the 63rd St Connector. It was funded (except for prelim studies) within the 1995-99 Capital Plan, but construction itself took until December of 2000.
In contrast, the 2nd Av subway has a $1 billion dollar allocation in the 2000-04 Capital Plan, which is enough to pay for all engineering and begin construction work. However, obviously, additional construction funds must be allocated in the 2005-09 Capital Plan, etc.
If you have trouble reading what we post Arti, or interpreting what is on MTA's website, I'll be glad to help you out...
[In contrast, the 2nd Av subway has a $1 billion dollar allocation in the 2000-04 Capital Plan, ]
Incorrect, the web site says, $700M, slightly more than for LGA access.
[If you have trouble reading what we post Arti, or interpreting what is on MTA's website, I'll be glad to help you out... ]
My point was that as there are no money allocated to LGA access FEIS, it must be done. In order to change the alignment now, the process has to start from the scratch. Anyway let's hear your interpretation.
Arti
[In contrast, the 2nd Av subway has a $1 billion dollar allocation in the 2000-04 Capital Plan, ]
Incorrect, the web site says, $700M, slightly more than for LGA access."
The Website is out of date (as is 90% of the material on it. The MTA is not great about maintaining it). The current Capital Plan allocation is $1.05 billion.
Here's hoping they patch the hole in the capital plan left by the bond failure, and proceed as planned, including this LGA link. I doubt even a Mayor Vallone will stop something from happening, once rail links to EWR and JFK open.
Thank you. Write to your elected officials. Every bit helps (it really does).
[The Website is out of date (as is 90% of the material on it. The MTA is not great about maintaining it). The current Capital Plan allocation is $1.05 billion. ]
What about the LGA portion, is it correct? Here's another question, when was EIS done on that project, as the site seems to imply it's done?
Arti
When a final EIS is done on the project, and the appropriate govt bodies have given final approval, then construction can begin.
The budget for a project can be allocated within one capital plan, or multiple plans; once the project is funded (that is, existing monies are actually committed) then it's a matter of building and time. Construction itself, as we know, takes a long time. But if it is funded, then it can be considered "done" as far as that is concerned. Now, I am not taking into account overruns, work which is screwed up and must be redone, or unanticipated problems (like running into a gas field, underground spring, an unexpected building collapse, etc.). Look at Boston's Big Dig for examples of what can happen.
The 63rd St Connector was funded in the 1995-9 plan. Its funding is resolved. The 2000-4 Capital Plan did not have to address it. different budgets
Explain me, if it's approved, how can they deral it?
Arti
Correct me if I'm wrong:
I don't believe the EIS is approved, as opposition has forced restarting from scratch.
I don't believe the capital plan is funded, with the bond failure.
[Correct me if I'm wrong:
I don't believe the EIS is approved, as opposition has forced restarting from scratch. ]
It looks like it, based on the info on MTA web site current Capital Plan allocates money for rpreliminary engineering, final design and off airport construction. There's no mention on EIS, so I guess it's done. The mysterious part is that I don't recall any allocation for the EIS from the previous CP.
[I don't believe the capital plan is funded, with the bond failure. ]
It's not fully funded, but it would be quite sad that insted of staring construction, all we get is yet another study.
Arti
If there is a ROD on the EIS, why would anyone care what Vallone thinks? I don't think they have closed this one up. Strange, the lack of clarity on what exactly the status is. May just be in limbo until JFK and EWR are done. But then Mayor wants this done, and he's about out.
BTW, I was at the scoping hearing in Astoria many months back, and it was like a day at the coliseum. The MTA folks up front were the kill of the day. Every word shouted down by hundreds of angry folks and all of their elected representatives. I expected the next day's tabloid coverage to be something like "El No!" But I guess they weren't there.
That is funny that the press hardly covers those 2 projects (LGA and ESA) that have money planned to do any actual construction.
Arti
I still like my idea of undergrounding the el starting between Astoria and Ditmars Blvds. (a largely industrial strip south of 23rd Ave.), building a new underground Ditmars station (nearer to the Ditmars bus line), continuing under the last 2 blocks past the complaining apartment dwellers, then surface or el thru the industrial areas along 19th Ave. Fits within the currently favored alignment, meets Vallone's objections, cheaper than all-new subway, and you don't have to start planning an alternative route from scratch.
If it gets by the City Council, then, politically, it certainly has a good shot of happening.
If it gets by the City Council, then, politically, it certainly has a good shot of happening.
A lot of things "get by" the City Council, as it's comprised of a bunch of anencephalics
However you do it, and the geography mentioned is more to the other's man's knowledge than mine, why don"t the pol's get off their tails and do it. [Yes, I've been around long enough to know better]. If NIMBY's stopped everything 100 years ago and the federal government today wasted less money on stupid studies [ok they've worn tobacco to death, sugar was proven bad and then they say it's OK, caffeine, the sex life of some four legged creatures, introducing wolves into an area where livestock is a major business,ad infinitum]spend the money on real jobs for everyday people, in the long run provide a major convenience for the masses and travellers; think I'll get another cup of coffee. But I've already posted.
Ron, knowing how you just want the job done and appreciate different ideas, let me give you a new one (I think). Call it "AirTrain II".
Proposal -- run a JFK-like AirTrain from the LGA terminals, then above the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway, terminating at either:
(A) the EFGR/7 at Roosevelt & Broadway in Jackson Heights,
(B) or the GR at 65 St. & Broadway on the border of Jackson Heights and Woodside;
(C) and/or the LIRR/7 in Woodside.
Using the BQE to get to 65 St. & Broadway would be easy, IIRC the other two are more imbedded in the neighborhood areas. An alternative would be to possibly use some of the Hells Gate/LIRR rail corridors to get to LIRR/7.
Advantages:
(1) Like AirTrain I, the PA pays for the whole shebang.
(2) Like AirTrain I, nimby factor greatly reduced going above an expressway (though I'll have to look at the area with news eyes the next time I'm out there).
(3) A line that includes the connection to Woodside LIRR would also enable a tourist friendly air terminal within Penn Station. Perhaps in the space to be left by Amtrak when they move across the street to Farley. Tourists, heck everyone, can go to this location, and be whisked to all three major airports: EWR via NJT, JFK and LGA via LIRR. In the future, with East Side Access, Grand Central could also have a similar air terminal to JFK and LGA (and in the deeper future, with ARC tunnels, to EWR as well).
Disadvantage:
1) Like AirTrain I, a two-seat ride, at least until East Side Access.
The big positive is the first one, having the PA pay for the thing. MTA's plate is so full that freeing up $1b for 2nd Ave, East Side Access, etc. would be a big plus.
That's not a bad idea. I like your thinking. Definite pluses, some minuses, but AirTrain I isn't perfect either.
And the use of transfer fee money in place of taxes is a great big plus. Of course, AirTrain isn't as extensive as it could be because the transfer tax funds have limits too...
I agree. PFCs are limited. But thanks to the PA taking on the airlines, they have been stretched out a bit.
I think AirTrain II could do everything we need for now: get a rail link built into LGA. At relatively minor expense, MTA funds can come along later to connect some of the missing links. Most notably one-seat rides from Manhattan to the airports after East Side Access makes it possible.
But something else occured after the first post: a one-seat JFK-LGA ride is also possible, and before ESA. With AirTrain I & II, and when AirTrain/LIRR compatibility issues have been worked out (our FRA friends again, I hear):
* trains can go along AirTrain I from JFK to Jamaica,
* continue down the LIRR mainline from Jamaica to Woodside,
* then join AirTrain II tracks from Woodside to LGA.
Thanks to the old Rockaway Branch, there's even room for 6 tracks for much of the middle LIRR segment. MTA only has to get short trackage links built at Jamaica and Woodside. The rest will be in place for a one-seat ride.
On the political side, there's also that perennial idea to link PATH to Newark Airport. The PA could pair these two projects for NY/NJ parity and get going immediately. On their nickle. Sooner the better.
Crank up the EISs!
"On the political side, there's also that perennial idea to link PATH to Newark Airport. The PA could pair these two projects for NY/NJ parity and get going immediately. On their nickle. Sooner the better."
A PATH extension to the monorail station is being studied. I hope they do it.
I hope they consider the path hooking up to the sixth avenue line once the new LaGuardia connection is completed too!
N Broadway Line
I hope they consider the path hooking up to the sixth avenue line once the new LaGuardia connection is completed too!
If you mean running PATH trains on the IND, forget it. Can't be done. Same reason (incompatible equipment dimensions) as why you can't run IRT trains on the IND. Maybe other incompatibility problems. Also FRA (PATH is a FRA railroad; TA is not.)
"If you mean running PATH trains on the IND, forget it. Can't be done. Same reason (incompatible equipment dimensions) as why you can't run IRT trains on the IND. Maybe other incompatibility problems. Also FRA (PATH is a FRA railroad; TA is not.)"
What are the incompatibility dimensions? As for being a FRA railroad, yeah!, that might present some problems for the MTA system. Maybe they can build a special connection to the Long Island railroad, but that will be worse.
N Broadway Line
For openers, PATH trains are c. the same width as IRT equipment. Picture the GAAAAAP between the train and the platform. The rest of the differences are too technical for me.
About 10 years ago, someone proposed a line from the LIRR up the BQE to LGA. The NIMBYs came out in force. I couldn't figure it out, since the line goes up the freeway and past a cemetary, etc. But it was shouted down.
Interesting. I don't recall that proposal. Perhaps the success of Airtrain I will alleviate some of the concerns. Construction has gone pretty smoothly. Then let the respective nimby forces in Astoria and Woodside/Jackson Heights face off. The lack of a LGA rail link will be noticable later this year with EWR getting theirs. Then truly glaring next year when JFK gets theirs.
I remember the BQE proposal. IIRC, the problem was that you had to get the tracks from the BQE to the Sunnyside Yard area, and there were a few blocks of residences along the way. Sound familiar?
Any way, PV is retiring after the election so the LGA extension won't have to serve East Elmhurst -- or Staten Island, for that matter.
(Proposal -- run a JFK-like AirTrain from the LGA terminals, then above the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway.)
Recall the original Port Authority proposal -- the one they promised in exchange for the $3 passenger facility charge. It had the current Airtrain extended past Jamaica and onto LaGuardia (for those changing planes, or LIRR riders going to either), out on the route you chose, then over the 59th Street Bridge.
According to the Port Authority person I met at a party, the PA doesn't want to be tied to the rest of the system for a one seat ride. They see a fully automated system with small trainsets -- and therefore frequent service -- and tranfers at a variety of points so you only have to switch once to go anywhere. Of course, NJ doesn't want to do anything for NY, but that's another matter.
If the NJ members of the board are squeezed hard enought, perhaps the Airtrain could run to a terminal at Queens Plaza via LaGuardia. A wide variety of transfers would be available there -- 7, N, R, V, E. It could even run past there down to a ferry terminal on the East River.
I'd prefer the N/R plan, but that plan works too. I asked why the Port Authority doesn't propose it. She said "politics."
Ah yes. I remember now. About 1993-94. The Upper East Side went nuts on the proposed Airtrain terminal at E. 59th and 3rd Ave., and it died pretty quickly. Thanks for the reminder. I'll have to go dig through the archives now to refresh on the particulars.
I too like whatever works. N/R is fine. But I'm trending toward AirTrain II, all things equal, because it frees up $1b of MTA money for other projects, like 2nd Ave.
The key to a one-seat ride is dual mode operation. When in Japan a couple of years ago, I recall the monorail to Haneda Airport had a T/O for the first half of the trip, then they left about half way out, and it was automated from there. Hopefully the specifics on how to do this out of NYP/GCT will be worked out with LIRR.
I know Gargano said a few months ago that the State was putting out an RFP or something to start looking into a one-seat ride to JFK now that AirTrain I was well underway. But I haven't heard anything since.
[ The Upper East Side went nuts on the proposed Airtrain terminal at E. 59th and 3rd Ave., and it died pretty quickly.]
Strange, the area is mostly commercial, polluted by auto traffic anyway.
Arti
That was the problem. People said it is too crowded there already and that w/o another subway line on the East Side, . . . .
[That was the problem. People said it is too crowded there already and that w/o another subway line on the East Side, . . . . ]
1. There's N & R there.
2. (more important) The bulk of the passangers would have taken a cab anyway.
Arti
[That was the problem. People said it is too crowded there already and that w/o another subway line on the East Side]
They may have a point. Traffic's a disaster there. So not only might the terminal contribute to local traffic, it would be hard to get to.
I know Gargano said a few months ago that the State was putting out an RFP or something to start looking into a one-seat ride to JFK now that AirTrain I was well underway. But I haven't heard anything since.
Would that have involved running the AirTrain cars along the LIRR from Jamaica to Penn? Or reusing the old Rockaway line?
IIRC, it was using the Rockaway line.
My guess was that they would have to use the LIRR. But I don't think there was a preference stated. Just tell us how we can do a one-seater with this system we are getting.
[My guess was that they would have to use the LIRR. But I don't think there was a preference stated. Just tell us how we can do a one-seater with this system we are getting.]
I think it's easy enough, because the tunnels are sized properly. Trains would run under ATC at JFK, manually elsewhere. Dual contacts for power . . . they could run on either the LIRR or the subways, thanks to the RPA and some wise politicians (hard to tell how much the RPA actually had to do with it because they tend to take credit for everything).
Too bad the Jamaica station faces the wrong way. It would have made a lot of sense to have the trains stop at Jamaica, then head into the City. Now I guess they'll either have to tear down the station or bypass it on the main line or via Rockaway -- and I doubt that Jamaica service will last very long if they do that.
If AirTrain is automated at that point, couldn't it just back out? Trackage is a little more complicated, but doable, it would seem.
Is it just mine or has response format changed? Since yesterday I have to type in handel&E mail add?
its normal now thanks
[If AirTrain is automated at that point, couldn't it just back out? Trackage is a little more complicated, but doable, it would seem]
I suppose so -- depends on the headways and whether you're willing to have the TO at the back of the train while it goes through the terminals (though I suppose they could just get off when the train enters JFK and wait for the next one to arrive).
I love it. They could restore the other half of the QBP elevated station. If you look at the north wall of the station, you can still see where the torch cuts where they cut away the missing half of the station.
Personally I think extending the (N) to LaGuardia would serve more Queens customers than would a line from 63rd, especially if they finally created a transfer (even just a Metrocard transfer) between Queens Plaza and QueensBORO Plaza. Then it would be accessible not only from the (N), but also from the (E)(R)(V) and (7) trains. With a line from 63rd St, you'd presumably have a transfer only from the(F).
Sorry. Just getting off on newfound HTML powers.
:-) Andrew
>>> Just getting off on newfound HTML powers. <<<
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. :-)
Tom
Wait till he figures out that certain colors aren't very visible.
That's why I made the (N) and (R) gold instead of YELLOW.
THE R46 IS UGLY!!!!!!!!!
I did have a point besides playing with font colors though.
:-) Andrew
It is notStop stealing my ideas!
Couldn't find anything better to say!
;-D Andrew
[There are several other alternatives, including one that I developed and shared with MTA and Vallone's office and received a positive response.]
Sounds interesting. (I'm a bit skeptical of the subway proposal at this point -- seems to me it's a bad mismatch with the demographics and needs of the airport travellers, and it precludes a direct JFK-LGA link.)
"I'm a bit skeptical of the subway proposal at this point -- seems to me it's a bad mismatch with the demographics and needs of the airport travellers, and it precludes a direct JFK-LGA link.)"
The subway proposal(s) do not provide a direct LGA-JFK link. You're right about that. In fact, you would need AirTrain plus two subway trains to get to LGA.
But the subway proposals answer a political problem, and they offer better service to LGA to a large population which uses Queens Blvd subways, and have never had LGA access before. So the demographics are: all of central Queens.
Also, I've pointed this out before: East Elmhurst residents have complained about a lack of subway service, and rightly so. This is one way of giving it to them, by combining it with LGA service.
[But the subway proposals answer a political problem, and they offer better service to LGA to a large population which uses Queens Blvd subways, and have never had LGA access before. So the demographics are: all of central Queens.
Also, I've pointed this out before: East Elmhurst residents have complained about a lack of subway service, and rightly so. This is one way of giving it to them, by combining it with LGA service.]
I think there's little doubt about the benefits of extending subway service, both to local residents and airport employees. But I also think the only justification for spending the money on this project (I think I figured out once that you could provide a cab ride to everyone going to LaGuardia for ten years for what this little project will cost) is that businesses list poor airport access as one of their primary reasons for leaving the City. And subway service isn't going to attract the people who actually fly from LGA. We're talking six figure incomes here; they'll take a cab.
As to Queens access to the airport, it seems to me that the direct JFK-LGA link could provide that with a few stops along the way, as well as providing a north-south service which couldn't otherwise be justified by local ridership. With a stop along Queens Plaza and a link to the subway station, it could serve East Elmhurst residents the same way a subway could.
(The obvious answer to these dilmenas is to run both Airtrain and the subway on the same tracks, but then you have to deal with the FRA. I think it should be possible to build an FRA-compliant transit vehicle that can travel safely on subway lines, but they might not agree.)
AFAIK, FRA doesn't regulate the subway. It sure as hell doesn't regulate airport people movers. It only regulates "real" railroads.
[AFAIK, FRA doesn't regulate the subway. It sure as hell doesn't regulate airport people movers. It only regulates "real" railroads.]
The problem here is that in this scenario the Airtrain would have to run on LIRR tracks, so it would definitely be under FRA jurisdiction. Whether they'd allow it to join the subway at some point I don't know, but it seems the obvious thing to do.
I'm skeptical of the value of increased subway service to E. Elmhurst. If I recall, it's largely a low rise neighborhood with no great density. And one thing that could be done if the N is extended to LGA is to further extend it south from LGA for a half mile or so into E. Elmhurst. This would be a lot cheaper than the long underground branch off of Steinway Street that Ron proposes.
If there was a serious move to build that, I would accept.
Why do we need a subway to go there, anyway? Spend much less, build a single-track LIRR connection to the Port Washington. Maybe put a wye in so they can run to Shea Stadium station for transfer to regular trains during the rush, when NYP has less track capacity.
A single track commuter train might work too. Understand, though, that most probably whatever you put in will have to be underground (for both logistical and, importantly, political reasons- the City Council won't OK it for construction otherwise.) So you're still looking at a tunnel. Maybe a one track tunnel widening to a two-track station would work. But how much would you save?
[Understand, though, that most probably whatever you put in will have to be underground (for both logistical and, importantly, political reasons- the City Council won't OK it for construction otherwise.)
This I don't understand. Vallone's being a creep, yes, but what about the rest of the City Council? We're talking about only two blocks here! So let the City offer to buy the property at market value: bet no one would actually sell. Or better yet, let the City condemn the land and build a moderately priced hotel for the convention center. Run a real Airtrain (with stops at the terminals) from LGA to the hotel for a cross-platform transfer to the subway, then continue on via Amtrak and turn in at 34th. Go across to the new Airtrain terminal in the Farley building, then continue west to a stop at Javits. Both the JFK and LGA Airtrain would double as shuttles from Farley/Penn to Javits, and a direct connection would link LGA and JFK via the freight line. And of course Newark trains would leave from Farley as well. Or you could run JFK-LGA trains through the Broadway line, to provide Lower Manhattan access . . .
What can I say? Some things about government are not to be understood...
Well, let's be fair. If East Elmhurst residents feel they are being shafted on real subway service (and they don't have any now) and Astoria residents don't want to lose that nice empty "N" train with plenty of seats which starts out at Ditmars Blvd., well, you can see t's not all totally irrational...
???
[If East Elmhurst residents feel they are being shafted on real subway service (and they don't have any now) and Astoria residents don't want to lose that nice empty "N" train with plenty of seats which starts out at Ditmars Blvd., well, you can see t's not all totally irrational...]
People in the City are so self-deludingly selfish! Don't they see that when the needs of 1000 people outweigh the needs of 8 million, they're just screwing themselves?!?
Josh, dream on. They will never condemn that area north of Ditmars for a hotel, terminal, etc. That's a stable middle-class area of the sort we need more of. I'm in favor of extending the N, but through an underground extension under those blocks. (Actually, for about a half-mile or so.)
To Ron's point, the N riders won't lose their empty Ns that start at Ditmars. You'd still have those, plus a new Airport service running down the middle track in Astoria (peak direction.)
Actually, for about a half-mile or so.
It's only two blocks. Losing that will be absolutely nothing.
I agree with you there, but we have to deal with reality.
[I agree with you there, but we have to deal with reality.]
There is that . . .
You can see the details of these five trainsets here.
One trainset for Boston-Washington roundtrip, one for Boston-New York roundtrip, and one for Washington-New York roundtrip, and two backups. That's good enough to sustain the current schedule.
Chaohwa
Think we'll be seeing weekend Acela Express service soon?
It is hard to say now because Amtrak has not announce further plans. Let's see what happens in the Spring/Summer schedule.
Chaohwa
Last I heard as reported on the local Boston media, there will another full trip midday in April, but no weekend service until June.
5 amtrak shoud have 20 acela express trainsets running by the end of 2001.
amtrak shoud have 20 acela express trainsets running by the end of 2001.
Is there any logic to the trainsets? For instance, 2030 and 2031 are on the same consist (the one I rode) but 2020 and 2009 are together as well. Also, I think I figured out the logic for the passenger cars: They are numbered by the car type (first car of train, second, cafe, first class and so on). Am I right?
I don't think there is any logic about the trainsets. The car order of the trainset is fixed, but the car numbers are not uniform. I think the car number depends on which one is availale to be assembled.
Thanks for Amtrak News & Link to provide such detailed information.
Chaohwa
Months ago I posted here about what was the car equipment used on the "K" line from 1985-1988 & it was R40Slant/40M/42 but when these car finished the GOH did they all appear back on the "K" or "B" lines?
I heard one GOH slant appeared on the line the last day before it became the through B to Brooklyn again (expanded to middays and evenings to replace the K). Otherwise, the GOH program was still going on during the service change, and the IND kept the unrebuilt equipment until the remerging with the BMT. (rebuilt 40m/42 went exclusively to the BMT eastern div).
Does it really matter how many posts we have? Of course not. What matters is the quality, and well, that's finally slid down into the deep ravine from which it can never climb out. Notice how I haven't posted much lately? It's because there's nothing here worth posting about. Threads about 'bling-bling', grafitti, diarrea, "I've got post number 200000!", the constant harping about the redbirds and the R142, "How will the R160s be assigned?", the repeating redundant threads about 63rd St and the G train...
Whoop-de-fucking-do. The low-quality posts have chased away those people with something genuine to contribute. And they seem to have chased me away too.
With regrets,
-Hank
Well, if you feel that way. Actually, we have over 205000 posts. Go figure. (Sorry). Not all of the topics here are bad. And as for those redundant posts; they're not so bad, more like a constantly debated topic.
>>>The low-quality posts have chased away those people with something genuine to contribute. And they seem to have chased me away too<<<
I'm glad you didn't include yourself with those people who have something good to contribute, as it'd be wrong to offend them. But last time I checked, Train Dude, Fred, Pork, BMTJeff, BMTMan, Thurston, and a host of other good people still do post regularly. It seems you're the only one who's been chased away. But how you can get chased away from a message board by anything other than a stray roach on the keyboard is beyond me.
Regard,
RTS_2150
I agree....this board used to be a place where folks could come in and actually LEARN something about soubway/transit systems.
So f***ing what if there are over 205,000 posts -- I'd bet if you eliminated all the rabble-rousing, name-calling, assinine, and off-topic posts that have NOTHING to do with subways/transit (as the name of the board implies), there'd be less than 50,000!!!!!
Something else I've noticed -- there have been two or three MAJOR "scandals" on this board and related SubTalk. I noticed that in every one of them, there was one poster who seemed to be the common denominator. 'Nuff said.
You mean related BUSTALK, don't you? Mmmm, I wonder what young rabble-rouser does double duty on both boards on a daily basis?
I hope you're not talking about me. I never notice the scandals themselves, let alone who caused them.
Does it really matter how many posts we have? Of course not. What matters is the quality, and well, that's finally slid down into the deep ravine from which it can never climb out. Notice how I haven't
posted much lately? It's because there's nothing here worth posting about. Threads about 'bling-bling', grafitti, diarrea, "I've got post number 200000!", the constant harping about the redbirds and the R142, "How will the R160s be assigned?", the repeating redundant threads about 63rd St and the G train...
For a slight improvement, there are my incessant rants about suit-covered anuses, Upper West Side limousine liberals, and City Council anencephalics ...
I'm with you Hank. I haven't posted as much lately as I've done in the past either. This is for several reasons. The same questions get asked over and over and over again. Personality conflicts, big egos and flamage. People wanting the TA do do stuff which just ain't gonna happen! Posts which are way off topic. But I still visit the site often and will comment on something which I feel may be constructive and realistic. My biggest pet peeve: posters who make up subway service plans which will be beneficial to the poster! I have been on SubTalk for about 2 years. Without naming specific names, there are many posters from the recent past who like me do not contribute as much as they used to.
It occured to me that people may not want to read my respnses to their postings in fear (not FEAR fear, but you know...) that I've flamed them or chewed their head off, or posted an insane rant laced with obscenities, or filled with biting and well timed sarcastic remarks. So, I've decided to post a dislcaimer of WARNING: FLAME AND/OR SARCASM, if there may ne some hostiltiy, and if there is none, then FLAME FREE, with complimentary smiley face, like so :-).
Anyway, to the post at hand...
Without being rude to you, since you're not rude yourself, I'm going to explain something; with the HUGE amount of traffic SubTalk see per day, these things are going to happen. When a new poster shows up and wants to ask a popular question or discuss a popular topic, even if it's been recently discussed here, they're going to bring it up again because being new, they don't know or they don't want to have to wade through literally thousands upon thousands of posts.
As for odd topic stuff, hey, we're human. Staying on topic is like staying off the subway or bus, for some of us, a total impossibility. Besides, most of us are kind enough to change the subject header when stuff strays TOO far from the topic at hand. If you still decide to read that thread, off-topic header and all, that's you.
Flamage, that's a fact of life there. Not everyone is going to get along. Tempers will rage, words will be said. But, if we learn to be civil to each other in the end, bad relationships will be smoothed over and we can continue to have an overall good subway related message board.
So, in closing, this may not be the SubTalk of your youth, (JOKE, it's a JOKE, I know Subtalk is only three years old) but it's very good nonetheless. It's still a place to get LOADS of subway info and meet new people. I know things may have changed, but change is good. I mean if it weren't for change, you all in NYC would still be riding around on R1s and Low-Vs and the surface would be dominated by Old Looks and Checker Cabs. And I'm SURE you all wouldn't want that. <==
JOKE
The caf cars look a lot better than the breda or the ROHR cars.
There's a photo of the new WMATA Rail Cars on CAF web site.
www.caf.es
Look under "English" then "Projects UNDER construction" then "Washington Metropolitan" and the photo of that will come up on the screen.
Dominick Bermudez.
That looks just like a Breda train. Are you sure that is a picture of the new trains?
It is the new traincar interior from CAF. else would it be a ROHR train?
I look at that photo. And the side seats by the door's are GREEN. The way you can tear apart with the CAF cars with the Breda and Rohr car's is with the Green side seat's by the door. Maybe GRAY if it's not GREEN.
Dominick Bermudez.
It is actually Potomac Blue. The other colors are Colonial Burgandy and Chesapeake Sand. I jsut have to wonder about the orange carpet. The computer graphics printed in the post a few years ago had the colors being darker than in the picture on the CAF site.
NOW you tell me. I thaugt it was DARK GREEN.
Dominick Bermudez.
Yes. I think the almost the WHOLE car body is like the Breda subway cars. The Front end is diffent and the seat's too.
Dominick Bermudez.
The front doesn't look much different.
It is the CAF cars. Look at the seats! There is a blue one by the center door.
I didn't notice the blue seats until now.
They aren't even service. I take it you looked at the photos on the CAF website.
Rohr? What about Oynk?
Had a chance to scroll through signs a few times, to get the exact readings. One classmate couldn't figure out why I was always changing the signs.
This was a newer sign; probably the most current, and as I've said, older ones may have slight differences.JFK
Express
Washington Hts
8 Av-Fulton Concourse
8 Av-Fulton 8 Avenue
Fulton St Rockaway
Shuttle Queens Blvd
8 Avenue
Queens Blvd
6 Av-Culver
6 Avenue
Culver Queens Blvd
Crosstown
Queens Blvd
Bway-4 Av
Queens Blvd
Broadway
63 Street
Shuttle Astoria
Bway-Sea Beach
Astoria
Broadway Broadway
West End Astoria
Bway-West End * Broadway
Brighton Broadway
Brighton Concourse
6 Av-Brighton
Concourse
6 Avenue 6 Avenue
Brighton 6 Avenue
West End Washington Hts
6 Av-West End West End
Shuttle Washington Hts
6 Avenue Washington Hts
8 Avenue
6 Avenue
Shuttle
via 6 Avenue Myrtle Av
Nassau Myrtle Av
Shuttle Myrtle-Nassau
West End Nassau St
4 Avenue Jamaica
Nassau St Jamaica-Nassau *
Brighton
14 Street
Canarsie
Franklin Av
Shuttle
Special
*Diamond bullets (not available)
A correction of the interior sign readings I posted is that as the exterior sign above, "4th", "6th", "8th", "14th" are not used. It's always "4 Av" "6 Av" "8 Av" "14 St" etc.
I've seen this also when some N go to Canal St. or Whitehall St.
(N) Astoria
Broadway
(same thing how the R Queens Blvd-Broadway is written just as N)
I don't get what you mean by diamond bullets? Are those there or not?
It would be interesting to see the J on the Brighton line.
They're on the signs, he just couldn't put them up here as diamonds.
There was service Jamaica to the Brighton Line. It was known as the QJ.
I know it did when it was the QJ, but imagine today's J going to CI. Could it be that the MTA keeps backup plans tucked inside their vaults for disasters like total closing of the Manhattan Bridge.
Imagine having the J serve Brighton and M serving West End all the time. Kinda freaky, but living in NYC for so long, I learn to expect the unexpected.
=)
[Had a chance to scroll through signs a few times, to get the exact readings.]
Were you lucky enough to be in a car with the knobs still attatched?
[One classmate couldn't figure out why I was always changing the signs.]
You could explain why to the classmate.
Any chance you could do the same with the north and south terminals?
>Were you lucky enough to be in a car with the knobs still attatched?
No, just used the hand crank that was issued to us. I don't think any R-32's had any knobs left in after GOH.
>You could explain why to the classmate
I showed him the interior sign listing I had posted and printed, and he said "I don't care about those things" (and I said to myself, "then why does he care about me scrolling them?").
>Any chance you could do the same with the north and south terminals?
From what I've seen so far, the destinations are alphabetical, followed by the numbers. Since they can operate anywhere in the B div., I would assume they are the same as the R-40/42 signs, which IIRC, you already have on your site. (If the site I am thinking about was yours.)
[No, just used the hand crank that was issued to us. I don't think any R-32's had any knobs left in after GOH.]
I have seen some R32 cars with the knobs. They are 3480, 3481, 3559, 3758, 3759, and 3938.
[From what I've seen so far, the destinations are alphabetical, followed by the numbers]
That's what I figured from the start, but I don't know all of them.
[Since they can operate anywhere in the B div., I would assume they are the same as the R-40/42 signs, which IIRC, you already have on your site. (If the site I am thinking about was yours.)]
I do have rollsigns on my site, but the only north and south terminal rolls I have there are for the Redbird side rolls.
Did you get the new R68 readingd from Train Dude? If you did, could you see if all of those are on the R32 signs?
Also, because each R68 car is 75 feet long, they couldn't serve the BMT-Eastern lines. I think that the following are (or should be) listed for the BMT-E terminals.
Possibly on North only
Metropolitan Av
111 St, Queens
121 St, Queens
Possibly on South only
Broad St, Manhattan
Marcy Av, Brooklyn
Myrtle-Bway, Brooklyn
Rockaway Pkwy, Brooklyn
8 Av, Manhattan
Possibly on both North and South
Atlantic Av, Brooklyn
Crescent St, Brooklyn
Eastern Pkwy, Brooklyn
Essex St, Manhattan
Chambers St, Manhattan
Sounds a little pricey to me. Why not share the trestle that the TA built in the 1950's and branch off from there?
There is another thread that has just about run it's course that you might want to review.
Mr t__:^)
Everyone here says that A trains from Rockaway Pk. terminate at 59th St. Then they are put in at 59th in the evening. I've never seen an A train Headed for 59th, nor one marked for Rockaway Park. I ride the A everyday, so if anyone could tell me WHEN these trains appear, it would be helpful.
Here's the schedule:
Rock - WTC- - 59th (AM)
6:38 - 7:34 - 7:48
6:59 - 7:57 - 8:14
7:19 - 8:17 - 8:32
7:39 - 8:37 - 8:51
7:59 - 8:53 - 9:10
59th - JAYst- Rock (PM)
4:19 - 4:41 - 5:25
4:39 - 5:01 - 5:47
4:59 - 5:21 - 6:08
5:19 - 5:40 - 6:27
5:38 - 6:00 - 6:46
Thanks Henry. BTW: Are those trains marked: 59th st. or Rkwy. Pk.? Or do they just announce it?
Do the trains make the run north in order to turn around/store? I don't imagine they do so at 59th. Haven't been to NYC in a while. Any opposite peak direction A's to Rockaway Park?
SOURCE: PATH Brochure entitled "Questions & Answers About the New PATH Fares,..."
N E W C A R S
"PATH cars have an average age of 28 years , making it one of the oldest transit fleets in the U.S. Nearly, two-thirds of the vehiclesd are over 35 years old.[They do not know what the new cars will look like.]Based on the current schedule, new cars should start to arrive in 2005 and be fully in place by the end of 2007."
N E W S I G N A L S Y S T E M
"Under the current schedule, the new signal system will be in place in 2008."[does not specify type of system.]
S T A T I O N S
Pavonia..Reopen side platform once new elevator and escalators are installed. COnstruction to be completd in 2002.
Renovate Hoboken and WTC with new walls, floors amd ceilings. Ventilation improvement at 33rd and Hoboken(the latter already underway.
Lengthen some Newark to WTC stations to Handle ten can trains.
Note- Newark, Journal Square(JSQ) and WTC can already hold ten car trains. I spoke with a PATH conductor who advised me that the conductor would operate in cars 3 and 4 and pull off the first three at Exchange Place.(open only the rear section of the train)
F A R E C O L L E C T I O N
"New fare collection system since Quick Card is no longer supported by the manufacturer and has limited flexibility."
PATH, NJT and MTA are working on optyions for "joint ticketing". The brochure also states that off-peak discounts will be an optioon under their new fare collection system.[no details were given as to the kind of system.]
Ok, but how effective will off-peak reduced fares really be? Most commuters do so by necessity (work, school, apointments, etc.,) to final destinations where they have little or no real say in what time they can arrive/leave at. Do you "tell" your employer, professor, doctor/lawyer, etc., what time YOU'VE unilaterally decided that its convenient for you to arrive/depart?!! Most people cannot, and those who do enjoy this flexibility are probably in careers very high up in the learning curve and on the food chain, i.e., they're already making GOOD MONEY and don't deserve or necessitate a cheaper fare, meaning that the working poor and students are largely going to finance this through their disproportionately and regressively HIGHER paid fares, making this highly "un-fare" !!!(pun intended) <-:)
Ditto for similar bridge and tunnel off-peak reduced fare pricing schemes, also! This pricing scheme would pretty much boil down to a kind of reverse perverse re-redistribution of wealth from those of need toward those of means. Is this really what mass-transit is really supposed to be about? Mass-Transit, I thought, is one of the last few remaining bastions of true class-less society and caste equality, inasmuch as all who use it pay exactly the same money, to recieve exactly the same class and level of service, and are more or less straphanger "equals" during the trip. -Peace and GB, Thomas :-/
well said, and correctly reasoned
Some people think that off peak fare discounts cost the pax who ride at peak hours. Others think that it increases the capacity of the system to carry people who must ride at peak hours by encouraging those who can to use the system at other times instead, thereby increasing total pax carried and, possibly, total revenue. Yet others point out that only the most dim-witted regular commuter pays his/her fare one ride at a time rather than buying a (heavily discounted) monthly card. Thus, the true comparison is not between the single ride peak fare and the single ride off-peak fare; it is between the pro rata portion of the discounted monthly fare and the discounted off-peak single ride fare.
One other thing: regarding having to be at a particular place at a particular time, the grass is really not greener.
Did it say whether any more stations would receive elevators?
All it said is "Additional PATH station renovations." As far as details, I gave the details they gave- Sorry.
As was mentioned, Pavonia. I suppose it would be possible to put them into Harrison and Grove Street. Putting them into the rest of the New York stations might be a neat trick or, as a bureaucrat might put it, a complex engineering challenge, especially at 14th and 23rd Streets, where the entire stations are, IIRC, under the portion of the street upon which automobiles are prone to pass.
Hoboken -- how are they going to find enough room to improve things at Hoboken? What are they going to do, dig out another platform?
WTC -- aside from being way dark, what's wrong with WTC? After JSQ, and maybe the 6th avenue stops, it has the most modern look of anywhere in the system.
Subway service bypassing WTC(A,C,E), Cortlandt N/R,1,9. PATH suspends service.2/3 skips Park Place.
For alternate service:
1/9- Walk to Rector
A/C/2/3- Walk to Broadway/Nassau-Fulton Street
N/R- Walk to City Hall
Where is the E terminating?
Who Know's? I want to know the same thing. Since I live near by the E and F Trains.
Dominick Bermudez.
Second Ave.
One of the concerns of the V-train detractors has been 2 Ave's ability to function as a full-fledged terminal. Can anyone report how 2 Ave was performing last night?
Ugh, tonight was the worst commute I've ever had. One hour to wait in line for the ferry and I arrived early. When i got in line the end of the line was at the Merc. Exchange. By the time I boarded a boat the line was down past and wrapped around in front of the Winter Garden WFC. Then, I ended up in Hoboken instead of JC. All hope was not lost. Couple hours spent at East L.A. then a taxi home and that's it. Hopefully it will be running by morning though.
-Dave
Fire in the escalator, so I hear; shades of Kings X-St.Pancreas in the LU some years ago; fortunately this time no serious injuries.
wayne
Escalators overheat sometimes. Most newer ones shut down when they overheat. I see the newer escalators in malls like Roosevelt Field shut down. You can feel the heat when riding the escalators.
It was apparently in the N/R station north entrance/underpass, not the big PATH escalator bank. Although that being said I don't know if it was an escalator or not. The ones at the N/R north underpass have been under renovation for some time now. The center of the three had its steps removed when I went thru there last Saturday morning.
-Dave
The Port Authority's Press release page, Breaking news item says it was in the escalator from the North(24 hour) N/R underpass escalator. Those escalators are not owned by NYCT but erather by the Port Authority/WTC. Those escalators seemed poorly maintained-0-they are always squealing.
I have a question.This morning I was up at the 239th Yard around 6:30 this morning, I was watching the Train Operators moving trains both 2 and 5 trains, to mainline service.Is there a difference between the Yard train operators and the mainline train operators?
S-E-N-I-O-R-I-T-Y!!!!!!!!!!
Since our old friend Hank was complaining that he hasn't been learning anything recently here on SubTalk, I felt it was time for another Hot Times. Keep in mind I don't write these, but meerly repost them with the express written consent of the author. If you read this you WILL learn something.
*********************************************************************
This time we look at technology and its so called proven benefits.
Computers are not new to the rail industry. The industry has embraced them for years. Railroad management was quick to realize the benefits of computerization and the potential ability to eliminate many jobs with this fledging technology. The Pennsylvania Railroad made great use of computers for numerous functions early on. Other railroads quickly followed suit. Some with better results than others. New York Central lagged behind the PRR in the full use of their capabilities.
While companies like Missouri Pacific developed state of the art systems that still survive today on the UP, others like the Illinois Central used rather uncomplicated and very basic systems. MoPac's TCS is an excellent system capable of an incredible amount of functions, should they actually be used. After the MoPac/UP/WP merger of 1982, UP chose to scrap its own system in favor of TCS. UP has since gone on to market this very technology to other rail systems. Wisconsin Central and Illinois Central are two of the companies that lease the
TCS system from UP.
I mention these two from experience at both companies and also to illustrate differences in philosophies between them when it comes to the practical applications of the TCS system. WC in my observations, uses the system to a much fuller extent than does the IC. I see this first hand everyday. On the WC, we always got work orders for any pick ups and/or set outs enroute. The work order for pick ups always included a list of the cars scheduled to be picked up. On the IC, we get told of pick ups, usually on the radio. Seldom do we ever get a
printed work order. The Dispatcher or Champaign Freight will call us and instruct us to pick up here or there. Many times the instructions might be "pick up 25 grain" at a particular location. We arrive at the particular point and find 50 loaded grain there. We call and ask which 25 do they want? We'll get a response like "the 25 Marks grain." Oh, that grain! Okay, now which 25 is it? In some cases, it is not the first 25 but instead, the second 25. Then will come the
question from "they"; the always popular "and you know you are supposed to pick it up in block right?"
We always got computer generated work orders for industry switching on the WC too. Many of our industry work orders on the IC are not computer generated, but are of a completely different format than TCS what uses. In some cases, this format is pretty good, but they are wasting the technology they pay for in not generating the computerized lists. Of course, if they went ahead and actually used the technology, they would have to take time to actually train the
employees on how to actually use it. That would cost money and cut into bonuses and the like.
On the WC, the Conductor always turned in paperwork to a clerical employee at the end of his tour of duty. On the IC, my Conductor never turns in paperwork. Industry Conductors however, will turn in some paperwork. Oftentimes, it is the non-computer generated stuff. They may also have a form for cars picked up without a work order. On the WC, even road Conductors had these for cars picked up enroute from connections that he didn't have advance paperwork for. Not on the IC though. We are called on the radio and instructed to pick up
50 grain here or 30 miscellaneous cars there. About the only time we get paperwork for our pickups is the double stacks and miscellaneous freight we get from the TPW at Gilman. This means that we do not have a good or even decent list of our train after we make a pick up enroute. And this list come via the EDI, Electronic Data Interchange.
This, among other little used applications, would make it appear to me that the IC is not using the very system they are paying for to its full capacity and are therefore, overpaying for the technology. Half the time, we aren't even asked about times we performed these pick ups from industries and have no Conductor verification of the work being performed other than we show up with the cars.
However, we have seen a significant decrease in clerical help as a result of the improved technology. The clerical forces have been decimated by technology. On the IC and most likely many other railroads too, Yardmasters now perform some clerical functions. As if they didn't have enough to do already. Our Yardmasters handle most of the "picling". PICL is the acronym for Perpetual Inventory and Car Location. Picling is the act of moving the cars in the computer
so that they appear in the correct location for inventory control and
generating train and switch lists. The job of picling was once performed by a PICL clerk. Now, the Yardmasters perform these duties and the PICL clerk jobs have been eliminated.
As a result of this productivity gain, switch lists are often incorrect and train lists have become a total joke. Let's take my trip south on GLME on April 7th. Our paperwork says we have 113 loads, 70 empties, 15,414 tons and 10,886 feet of train, including the two engines. This is the very paperwork we depend upon should there be some sort of situation that might develop.
I must also interject in here, a comment the Assistant Super made to my Conductor as he drove him to the head end after we were doubled up and beginning the airtest. He actually told Bill not to tell me how many cars and how much tonnage we had until after I got the train rolling. He didn't want to take a chance of me not getting the train started had I known in advance that the train was so big. Just what does this guy take me for? If I cannot get a train like this started in this situation, nobody can. They actually pay this guy for stupid
comments like that! And he wonders why he has been passed up so many times for promotion. And some people wonder why I knock management the way I do!
As we depart Markham and climb the hill towards Stuenkel, I commented to Bill that it certainly doesn't feel like over 15,000 tons behind me as we are pulling better than I expected for this much train. After we passed the Manteno defect detector and get its report, we learn why. The axle count is 680 axles instead of the 744 we should have. It also tells us we have 9,898 feet instead of the 10,886 our paperwork states. To save you from having to do the math, this means we have 167 cars instead of 183. Somewhere, 16 cars have vanished from our train. Maybe we should post pictures of them on milk cartons with the term "Missing".
Sooner or later, these cars will show up at Markham, but not on anybody's lists. When checked, the computer will show these cars gone from the yard, enroute to points south. They will have to be "brought back" electronically into the yard and then PICL'd into the correct tracks there. A day lost on them.
Ain't technology great?
Back to our trip. We arrive at Kankakee and have to make a set out of some 25 cars there. We meet MEGL there as well. We ask them to give us our last car number as they pass it so as to try to get some idea of what might be missing. In the meantime, we pull down to make the set out. Part of the K3 set out is scrambled in comparison to the list Bill is working with. They were all there, just not all in the same order as the list shows. We make the set out and Vince Moore, the Engineer on MEGL calls and tells us the rear car number on our
train.
Now, this really gets interesting. The car number he gives us shows to be 42 from the tail end of our train according to our paperwork. This would mean our list is not much more than a paper version of scrambled eggs. Too bad it is not edible. A little hot sauce, some sausage and toast, and we would have quite the feast.
The worst part of this is that the list we had out of Glenn Yard was
accurate according to Jerry, the Quality Service Clerk there when he observed our train on the outbound. He called and informed us that we had an accurate list. After we arrived at Markham and set out and picked up, everything went straight to hell.
"To err is human. To really foul things up takes a computer."
I notified the lovely Jennifer, our Chicago South Dispatcher this day of our dilemma. I suggested that the Harvey Industrial Clerk or some other clerical type at Markham pull up the train list from the AEI (Automatic Equipment Identification) scanner located at the Manteno defect detector sight. This way, they could forward this list to Champaign and the clerical forces there could possibly get a good list of the train by the time we arrive there. But alas, it was
not to be.
A strange little (or big depending on your viewpoint) quirk lives in our system here. The gang at Champaign cannot access the Manteno AEI reader. This, to me anyway, seems like a complete waste of resources. This system is supposed to eliminate the very problems we are faced with on this train. But again, maybe I fail to see the "big picture". Why allow those that need this technology access to this technology? It is far easier to brag about the great technological resources
you have at your disposal than it is to actually apply their benefits to the operation. "It looks good on paper".
As we arrive at Champaign, I inform Yardmaster Merle that we have no clue as to what we have behind us in our train. We are not sure what is there, where it might be, or anything. This would really be a problem should we have been involved in a derailment or something of that nature. They have to send one of the clerks there out to physically check our train and then get into the computer and place everything in the proper order and generate new paperwork. This
procedure wound up taking well over an hour; an hour we did not have.
Instead, we tie up and the outbound crew takes over and waits. They sit and get paid initial terminal delay time for this too. But look how much money we are saving in eliminating all of these clerical positions. As a result of this fiasco, Tony and Jim did not depart for some five hours after we arrived. They were scheduled to return with a train out of Bluford during their tour of duty, but it would
not happen today; not enough time. Instead, they took the rubber tire express back to Champaign and wound up being on duty some 14 hours.
It doesn't end here. The following trip south, we were supposed to have 153 cars. We actually had 150. Three cars for Kankakee were missing. The Conductor discovered that mistake and even found which cars were missing. We reported them to Champaign Freight. Again, lost in the black hole that is Markham.
Oftentimes, we have more cars than our paperwork shows. We learn this
whenever we pass the first detector and it gives us our axle count.
Southward it would be Manteno, northward it would be Ludlow. When we have more axles than our paperwork shows, this is the indicator. At least one railroad (CSX) requires train crews to stop and physically inspect their trains to check for these extra cars. IC does not subscribe to this policy. Don't want to tie up our single track railroad.
In most cases, the Conductor doesn't get his paperwork at Markham until after we have the train all doubled up, so he cannot even check part of the train for accuracy against the list. At Champaign, the train is more often than not, doubled up for us and pulled down for the Car Inspectors to work. We are driven to the head end and cannot check the train against the list in most cases.
It brings to mind that wise old poem:
"Uphill slow, downhill fast. Tonnage first, safety last."
And so it goes.
Tuch
Subject line says it all. I have spent about 2 hours over the past two days talking with Lindsey Layton of the Washington Post for an article about Metro's 25th Anniversary. I have a feeling I will be mentioned in this article. I will post if I make the article, currently slated to run on either March 25th or 27th.
SeveN, I gather from your defense of your nocternal activities, you want to be taken seriously. I posted two messages to you, asking for some serious responses to some serious questions. Either you missed them or you chose to ignore them. The posting #s were 204499 and 204545. I'd still like to hear your responses.
>>>SeveN, I gather from your defense of your nocternal activities, you want to be taken seriously. I posted two messages to you,
asking for some serious responses to some serious questions. Either you missed them or you chose to ignore them. The
posting #s were 204499 and 204545. I'd still like to hear your responses.
Dude: I think we can all agree that Seven's lack of posting about this topic right now may be a good thing. :)
Also, he did respond to your post #204545 (not the greatest response, but he did do so nonetheless).
-cordially,
turnstiles
I don't remember which one but in one I asked him 3 questions about his activities. I was really interested in hearing his reasoning regarding his activities. If he's really serious, he should be able to justify his acts.
I cant seem to find those posts, if you repost i'll be happy to respond
SeveN, I basically had 3 questions for you. I hope that yu'd give honest thoughtful answers to them.
First - How long does it take to do one side of a car?
Second - How much paint? Hom much does it cost and how do you finance it?
Finally - I've read all of your explanations as to why you tag trains and how it will send your message around the city. Given that the TA policy is that cars with mural graffiti go directly for the lay-up tracks tot he yard for cleaning, few if any people see your work. If so, your message goes nowhere. Hhow is it worth the time, effort and risk?
Oh yeah, there was a bonus question. DO you think it's the smartest idea to taunt the vandal squad by including the POs names etc. in the graffiti? I don't know if your crew engages in this but I have seen some cars where certain officers were targetted.
In case you missed the posting again, seven, I'd really like you to respond to these questions.
SeveN, I basically had 3 questions for you. I hope that yu'd give honest thoughtful answers to them.
First - How long does it take to do one side of a car?
Second - How much paint? Hom much does it cost and how do you finance it?
Finally - I've read all of your explanations as to why you tag trains and how it will send your message around the city. Given that the TA policy is that cars with mural graffiti go directly for the lay-up tracks tot he yard for cleaning, few if any people see your work. If so, your message goes nowhere. Hhow is it worth the time, effort and risk?
Oh yeah, there was a bonus question. DO you think it's the smartest idea to taunt the vandal squad by including the POs names etc. in the graffiti? I don't know if your crew engages in this but I have seen some cars where certain officers were targetted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm glad you posted. I was beginning to think you were the TA Worker who hung himself. i heard the guy had a house and lost about 200,000 dollars and you're pretty high up and you hadn't posted so I was like uh oh. But, good to see you're around.
Yeah, that makes sense. With over 40,000 TA employees it would be the logical assumption.
Ok GUYS answering your question,
Its been a while since I did a Piece on Steel. If i do anything "illegal" it would be tunnel work. But not lately, I have been out of the transit scene for a while now. Well a full blown piece window down would take 2 hours to do if it is complicated. The reason people try to do "STeel" now even though it will be buffed is to show that they were able to pull off painting on "clean trains" thats all. If you do something presentable then it is a real piece. I never put any kind of taunting messages in my pieces, since they are in tunnels, a lot of them, it gives away positions, To tell you the truth I havent done illegal art in a long time. I (my crew) do murals for clubs and stores ( if you interested what stores and where e-mail me) and lately we were at an art show.
A good 40 by 12ft piece could take anywhere from 40-200 cans of krylon and 10 rusto leak protective. Complexity matters, so amounts vary.
The reason i even bothered with transit graff is because its a rush, its kinda like a sport to me , so thats it.
SeveN, in consideration of your answer let me quote one line from a WWII movie made over 40 years ago called "Bombadier". In it, a Japanese officer is interrogating an American flier. The American flier isgiving him some doubletalk when the Japanese Officer says, ""MAJOR, YOU HAVE TALKED BUT HAVE SAID NOTHING!!!" Except for the rank, I feel the same way about your answer.
what da hell do you mean, i answered your questions
what more u wanna know? my name? u wanna full blown describtion of me, you wanna report me to Dist Vandal Squad? what do you want?
BTW i think i know the movie you talking about, the navy airman was captured as the sole survivor after his B-24J crashed right? or is that another movie.
Your name would be nice. A description would be nice too. What I meant was that you posted about urban lore and having your message get out. Your (the graffiti artist's) message would be carried on a canvas of steel for all to read. But now you are saying that you don't do trains. You do tunnels. Who sees your message in the tunnels? No one or very few at best. Those standing at the front window are usually watching the tracks or the signals - not trying to read your scrawl. Ditto the train crew. So, as you acknowledged, you do it for the rush....... That's far more of a selfish motive than the 'high ideals' that you espoused in earlier posts.
BTW: You might try proper grammar. Spelling is one thing but "da" instead of "the" is pretentious. I don't think you are as ignorant as you'd like to have us believe. And if it's not eastern european, where? I don't think that'll be revealing too much to the vandal squad.
if i dont do trains anymore dont mean i dont encourage it, listen i will be back on steel you'll see, its a good thing for you u'd still have a job, haha thanks for the reasurance of keeping me away from VS. by the way just curious what made you think eastern european?
i'll answer the rest later
Wrong again, seven, I'll have myjob regardless. So will all of the people who work for me so your not performing a 'public service' by going back to steel. You and your crew won't even make extra work for me. Well that's not exactly true. It's a lot of paperwork involved when we have to hold a train out of service for police investigation of a customer injury. AND laugh as you will, it's a lot of work to steam a tagger's brains from between the shoe beam & the truck frame, and scrape smeared human remains from the side of the car with a 4" scraper. Do me one favor,7, have your name tatoo'd on your ass so I'll know whit it's you that my cleaners are washing away. I guess you are not as smart as I thought.
--- I do not ackgonweledge this post ----
Hahahahahaha, At least you have a sense of humor.
>>>Your name would be nice. A description would be nice too.
>>>And if it's not eastern european, where? I don't think that'll be revealing too much to the vandal squad.
Dude: I think graffiti was as much of a problem as you do, but I don't think is the appropriate forum to try to "unmask the villain", even if it is only a gesture to point out that graffiti is not justifiable.
-cordially,
turnstiles
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
Oh my man, are you ever getting pelted! A barrage of antagonistic anger that overwhelms the brain. HA! this is too funny. Hang in their Dude. The best offense is a great defense.
"AS THE SUBTALK WORLD TURNS" This is better than Survivor who wants to be a stupid rich guy with Regis, or even the Supranos!
what da hell do you mean, i answered your questions what more u wanna know? my name? u wanna full blown describtion of me, you wanna report me to Dist Vandal Squad? what do you want?
You could e-mail me your credit card numbers.
boy you are the idiot i presumed you to be. My point proven.
Hello all,
Today I received a reply from the Transit Museum, Gabrielle Shubert, Director, about our letter.
We are grateful to you and the contributors of www.nycsubway.org for taking the time to write to us with your comprehensive suggestions for commemorating the 100th Anniversary of New York City's subway system. We plan to organize a multifaceted celebration worthy of this historic occasion. You will be pleased to know that our plans include opening old City Hall Station for the anniversary. Funds are in place to restore the station and some of the work has already been completed.
As we plan programs and other activities, we expect and welcome ideas from many sources. Though we will not be able to implement every suggestion, we are certain that an anniversary of this magnitude will truly be a celebration by and for all New Yorkers.
We thank you for your interest and your offer to provide us with ongoing support. We will keep you apprised as planning proceeds.
Sincerely,
Gabrielle Shubert
Director
-Dave
Sounds good! Could you get them to post a list of all events associated with this?
I'll post whatever they send me.
-Dave
Doc, do even better! Join the Museum. That way you'll get the early members' mailings, and be able to attend "members-only" events.
Here's hoping that as many as possible are implemented. For the event, I'd be happy to do whatever I can to assist them as are I'm sure others here. Many hands make lighter work and all that. Your site is a highly credible resource and hopefully they'll make use of it and us. I'm psyched! :)
Funds are in place to restore the [City Hall] station and some of the work has already been completed.
Wonder what's been done. Any #6 T/Os seen anything going on on the City Hall platform?
--Mark
Not as long as Rudy is upstairs. They now have a police booth in the middle of the platform and a water sprinkler to wet the tracks and wheels to minimize squealing.
Congrats, Dave.
"You will be pleased to know that our plans include opening old City Hall Station for the anniversary. Funds are in place to restore the station and some of the work has already been completed."
I wonder what kind of work has been completed ? I also wonder if an entrance "kiosk" in the restored City Hall Plaza is in the planns too.
Bill "Newkirk"
I would expect the station to be rehabbed since that has fallen to the museum as "property" ... if I remember correctly, the station was planned as an adjunct to the museum, so I'm sure they're quite comfortable with it as being almost their own. As to a replacement kiosk, I wouldn't count on it. A paranoid mayor already nixed the station being opened to start with. A means of escape to the sacred grounds of City Hole by "terrorists" is out of the question. Watch. you'll see. Never gonna happen and not enough time after Reichsbunker Rudy is gone to get the project bid and started.
I would be absolutely delirious with happiness though if they could get a HiV or a LoV consist of whatever can be mustered for a ride into there with the doors open for however long they'll let us stay in the station and browse. That'd be the teats.
It would be cool if they could, in some small way, duplicate the first run(s). According to the track map, one can go from the southern-most platform of the TS-GC shuttle and connect with the downtown Lex. How about a Times Square-City Hall run in an old car, with stops at 18th and Worth? Looks like one could also make a Grand Central - 137 St run on the north side of the shuttle (with a stop at 91st), but that may not be as big a draw.
The TA might run local service with Lo-Vs from 59th St / Lexington Ave to South Ferry as they did during the Diamond Jubilee of 1976.
--Mark
I'm hoping they put a little extra effort into the work on the 3 Standards at Coney Island. Then they would have 3 sets of operational old trains (Lo-Vs, D types, & Standards).
By the time 2004 rolls around a set of Arch Roofs will qualify as a Nostalgia train too ... that would make four sets. How anout that light blue & white one up front with a Met's wrap at the other end ?
Mr t__:^)
I'd like to see them spruce up any or all of the R-1/9s still on TA property.
That'd do nicely ... and perhaps a rustvulture for the artes modernes among the crowd. I would imagine by then, they'd be pretty scarce.
There's a wonderful fantasy ride ... but the shuttle leg's out since the trackage doesn't work. You could send it down but you wouldn't get it back to there nor would you be able to transfer it from the south track to the north track to get it up Broadway. The former route isn't really there anymore. But I'd sure like to see it happen if it only were possible without major disruption of the Lexx ...
And this site gets a little more creditability ... good for you Dave.
Mr t__:^)
I'm so glad to hear that they'll be reopening the old City Hall station. If nothing else is done, that alone will make the anniversary celebration worthwhile (which isn't to say that other stuff shouldn't be done, of course!)
Dave, the news that City Hall reopen is excellent, but it's even better to hear you got a personal response to the letter - a very good implication that they're taking the suggestions to heart. Thank you for sharing.
Fox 5 just advertized a story coming up about cellphone antennas in subway tunnels. God I hope not. It's the one place I can get away from those damn things. Instead the TA should transmit service information over the air on radio through tunnels. That would make a LOT more sense!
OK, how many of you see people yakking on phones and feel like smashing those damn things? Show of hands, please?? :-)
Not to mention people play with the different ringing tones and it drives me nuts!
I will certainly NOT raise my hand.
Basically, whenever somebody like you who just can't stand cell phones says anything in public to someone else, then I want to smash his face. Talking in person or in cell phone is the same thing.
Some people however are pissed off they can only hear half the conversation.
Now if you want to "get away from these things" there's your house, a car or a cab. The subway is not a place to get away from everything. It's noisy, busy and crowded, cell phones would be nothing in that environment. Not that noise, business and crowdedness is a bad thing.
And those custom rings are the greatest things ever invented. Ever heard a phone ring and see multiple people check their phones? Well, now people know which is their phone, and which isn't.
Crybabies.
And those ringers even have pop song melodies. One had the medody of a dance song "Around the World" by ATC.
Nonetheless I prefered the original much better.
The subway is not going to become a Dracionian-type enviroment anytime soon, where you have the TA regulate everything you bring aboard. So long as the person on the phone isn't infrigning on another person's space, I see nothing wrong with it. Ditto for headphones, newspapers, portable computers, Palm Pilots/PDAs, Map Crunchers, Loud Clothing, Mormons, Kids, Lids, Tourists, Homeless, etc.
The telephone could be a lifesaver. I say all for the antennas.
I agree with you that it will be quite annoying when people start to use cellphones in the subway. I don't think that there will be anything one can do to stop the T/A from wiring up the subway system so that people can use their cellphones. There is one thing that the T/A can do so that people can get away from those who yak away on their cellphones. They can have at least one car on each train where no cell phones can be used. They can also assign specific places in subway stations where cellphones can and cannot be used. In other words the rules must state that people should use their cellphones in the subway with discretion. I have ridden the Metro-North trains on rare occasion and I find it annoying when people use their cellphones on the train. They too can make it more pleasant for others by assigning one car where no cell phones can be used.
BMTJeff
Hello all.
I'm currently out of the country, but my brother tells me that the MTA boarded up sections of the Stillwell Ave. station in Coney Island Brooklyn and are planning to demolish it and build a modern one.
Does anyone have the real scoop on this? Are they planning on keeping any part of it? That station has been in it's current form with minor modifications for decades. The old token booth and signs, wood doors, Philips Candy stoor, that old suntan lotion sign with the puppy tugging on the girl's bathing suit, and the BMT facade on the south side of the station.
Anyone know what's going on?
Thanks.
J
I don't know about any plans for tearing down Stillwell av. There aren't any, Stillwell ain't goin' nowhere!
Yes it is. The facade will be removed and stored.
The remainder of the station is coming down. I believe at least one train (the B, sometimes maybe another) will always be serving the construction site.
The replacement (ground up) will use the current facade, which would be returned and restored.
And you're not the ultimate authority on this, don't say things as if they are gospel (rigid answers). It's fine to do that when you're right, but you're not.
>>And you're not the ultimate authority on this, don't say things as if they are gospel (rigid answers). It's fine to do that when you're right, but you're not.<<
Whoa. And you are? As I recall, you were wrong on another post here regarding cell phones and cancer. I was wrong. You don't have to be such an ornery bitch.
No. You were still wrong on the cancer and telephones thing.
I went a little overboard. I don't care if someone is rigid, but it creates a problem when he is obviously wrong. Myself included.
>>No. You were still wrong on the cancer and telephones thing.<<
No, I wasn't.
Show me proof that you were correct, then I'll believe.
Before you say that I should show proof, I'm not the one trying to prove anything (something doesn't exist until it is proven, you haven't proven it, it doesn't exist).
Fine then.
Do UV rays cause cancer?
Nuff said.
Do UV rays cause cancer?
How is that proof?
One is not the same as the other.
You can either come up with something logical, or just shut up.
There is a firm plan to rehabilitate the present concrete viaduct. This is clearly defined in the TA's Capitol Plan for the upcoming years.
According to the TA, the entire present concrete encased structure will be replaced with an open floor type elevated structure, a la a typical El.
This information is readily obtainable at the TA website.
If you would perform a small amount of research, you would have known this information. The TA site is very simple to navigate.
IG, I did check the MTA site (http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us) before I came here but I couldn't seem to find any reference specific to the planned reconstruction of the Stillwell avenue station. I would be grateful if you could point me to it.
Thanks.
J
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/cap2000-2004-nyct.htm
This will detail the Stillwell reconstruction.
Thank you!
The station is going to be completely redone over a 3 year period (roughly). The BMT facade on the south end is supposed to be restored. As for everything else, it's probably history.
--Mark
Rats, another childhood memory taken to the bulldozer. Are there any sketches of our future station to look at?
J
When does the destruction and reconstruction begin?
All I know is that the renovation of Stillwell Avenue is long overdue. A nice palatial terminal at the south end of the BMT lines may even help begin the revival of Coney Island. Stillwell was an impressive station the last time I saw it as a kid in 1953. When I saw it again in 1974 it looked like crap, and it looked even worse in 1991 and 1999. The casino known as New York, New York in Las Vegas has a replica of a train station and it looks a lot like Stillwell. I would think it would make New York, the real New York, prouder of its subway if the most renowned terminal of them all looked like something to revel at rather than rebel at.
I agree it isn't what it used to be. None of Coney Island is. I also hope that the MTA tries to capture some of that old nostalgia in it's design plans for Stillwell Ave., rather than throw up some characterless steel and glass.
From hearsay, I believe the reconstruction starts in a limited form after the summer beach season, and then in earnest early in 2002. It might resemble an European train shed with one of those large arched enclosures, but don't quote me on this. I don't have (or know of, quite frankly) publicly available sketches of what it might ultimately look like. Perhaps an upcoming public meeting with the Coney Island Chamber of Commerce might show one ....
Imagine if there was connecting trolley service to the new Mets farm team ballfield .....
--Mark
I have some MTA drawings. I suppose I could scan them but they're like 10th generation photocopies.
-Dave
Anything you have would be appreciated. Perhaps make it a link in the Stillwell Ave. article by Mark and Peggy?
Thanks.
J
The Wooden Token Booth waas known as "The Rotunda". Irt is already history having been replaced by four MVMs.
Currently I did see the boarded up sections inside Stillwell which is a ongoing asbestos removal project.
Bill "Newkirk"
Ah, yes the Coppertone billboards. I wonder if there were any ads for QT (Quick Tanning) lotion. Can't recall if any of the R-27/30s ever had any ads for that stuff. It wouuld have been cool to be on a QT train and see ads for QT lotion.
I've heard a rumor that they will also put in a bypass track (no platform) to allow Q put ins to go through the station and not tying up platform space.
Yes, I recall that as well. It was supposed to be for 63rd Street service put-ins and take-outs.
--Mark
Isn t there already a thru track for the Brighton to go thru also a connection to the Slow Beach?
>>Isn t there already a thru track for the Brighton to go thru also a connection to the Slow Beach?<<
Yes, D train rails connect to N train rails, but not on a bypass track.
Everyone here is talking about the Northern Terminus of the 2nd av subway line. But what about that massive borough to the southeast of Manhattan: BROOKLYN!!
2nd av has had a weird history. Initial plans were to have it connect to the Court St station, present day Transit Museum. But as the plan drifted along without progress, the southern terminal was changed a number of times. Sometimes it would connect to 6th av/ Manny B other times the Nassau St. Subway, and even later having no connection whatsoever to bklyn.
Persently, the line plan simply hooks into 63rd tunnel (Gross) and then runs down either 6th or broadway (Side note: It would make more sense to run it down the Broadway line as a local, doing away with the W [or perhaps labeling it W]. This would allow it to reach east side 14th st station (Union Sq.). But, this line seems to neglect something: Lots of people ride the LEX line from Bklyn. TA people aren't thinking, and this line really won't help the crowding problems from Bklyn.
Well then, what does everyone here think ('specially you old tymers [people from the 50's.]). I think that they should hook the line to Court St. Fulton local (re-locate the transit museum, or have the tracks bypass the station. Plans from 1990 include this). It should then proceed into manhattan with a link to a local running from the proposed Whitehall St. terminal (see track map on this site). Transfers to trains at Grand St would still be in place. Express tracks would then skip Houston, 23rd st and 48th. At 57th, the local would branch off to Queens Plaza. Another local would be running from Whitehall to 125th. (forget turning any service down 63rd.) would then skip 96th and 105th, and then at 125th, the local from Whitehall would terminate, While the express would run to the Bronx.
Thus, you have 3 services: 1. Express from Euclid (or Lefferts, sending all A's to Rockaway's.) the Express runs local in brooklyn, express in Manhattan.
2. A local from Whitehall, turning onto 63rd as a local to Queens Plaza and terminating at 71st Continental) This will help get even more people out of the 53rd tunnel.
3. A local from Whitehall to 125th st (all 2nd av.)
Granted this plan is a HUGE fantasy, But If it were real, it allows:
1.More local service to Fulton Line, and a direct line from the East side to Fulton (no 4,5,6 line)
2. Direct east side service to Queens Plaza line.
3. A FULL second Av line
Again, anyone who has their own two cents to throw in, please throw in three.
Now that looks like somethng I thought of when I was in my teens, and the Second Ave. subway was to be built during the second term of the Lindsay administration. I still like it now.
Read my response to the first post. You're discussing old information. That is not the current plan.
No joke shirlock. I said this was an idea that made sense. A government report also suggests a connection to the Court St. IND Flton St. subway. Report is on this site.
"Persently, the line plan simply hooks into 63rd tunnel (Gross) and then runs down either 6th or broadway"
You are misinformed. That is not the current plan. The current plan is to terminate the line at the southern tip of Manhattan, in the financial district (I forget the street name right now) not far from South Ferry.
An interim service hooked up to the 63rd St tunnel will probably function while the southern half of the line is constructed. This connection will be permanent, in that it will allow trains from the 63rd St tunnel (coming from Queens) to turn south on 2nd Av, as well as 2nd Av trains either going straight south or turning west.
[The current plan is to terminate the line at the southern tip of Manhattan, in the financial district (I forget the street name right now) not far from South Ferry. ]
There can't be a set terminal for the southern part as the EIS has not been done yet.
Arti
Yes, the precise siting and geometry must be determined after a final EIS and prelim engineering are completed.
[You are misinformed. That is not the current plan. The current plan is to terminate the line at the southern tip of Manhattan, in the financial district (I forget the street name right now) not far from South Ferry.]
While I recognize the desireability of a Water Street line, it puzzles me that they aren't planning to use the Nassau line instead. That would cut 20% off the cost of construction, as well as providing Brooklyn access. The Water Street spur could be added when they added an express line to the Second Avenue,at which point the JMZ could head uptown via the KK connection, meaning that JMZ riders heading downtown could transfer to any line except the 7th Ave, or run under the City Hall loop to meet the express on every line as the L does further up.
Josh,
The connection with the JMZ is probably the most inexpensive idea so far. And I agree someone should look into it. However, we have to understand, the N and R uses that same tunnel in Brooklyn. And there's already 4 trains serving the 4th Avenue route. Unless they cut the Second Avenue short of Chambers Street. But that will defeat the purpose of having the second avenue line.
I see whitehall street as an alternative because it will dead end on it's own terminus. This will not affect the N or R because it would parallel the line above.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
>>The connection with the JMZ is probably the most inexpensive idea so far. And I agree someone should look into it. However, we have to understand, the N and R uses that same tunnel in Brooklyn. And there's already 4 trains serving the 4th Avenue route. Unless they cut the Second Avenue short of Chambers Street. But that will defeat the purpose of having the second avenue line.<<
>>I see whitehall street as an alternative because it will dead end on it's own terminus. This will not affect the N or R because it would parallel the line above.<<
This defeats the purpose. Instead, why not hook it up to the Culver or Fulton INDs. Or, if it does hook into Nassau St, It will be after N trains return to bridge service. M trains will not Go to bklyn any more (xcept rush hour possibly to Brighton {not very useful though}). Then, the R and 2nd. av exp could run into bklyn. while the 2nd av local terminates in south manhattan. There should be TWO 2nd av locals: one running into Queens at 63rd st. (From Dwntwn.), and another running to 125th.
I agree with Josh -- hook into the Nassau Street line. It is underused, and well placed.
First, if the Manny B is fully open the N will be going over the bridge, so there will be room for another train or two to Brooklyn. If it will not be fully open, time to replace it with a tunnel and a Rutgers/DeKalb connection as part of this project.
Second, 2/3 of J/M/Z riders turn uptown on the F. Send the J/Z through the unused portion of Chystie as the V, and just the M downtown. The M can even terminate at Chambers, leaving plenty of room for 2nd Avenue trains.
Third, the Nassau line has a two track terminal after Broad Street. Trains that don't go through the Brooklyn would have plenty of room to layover and turn around.
Fourth, Broad Street is right in the center of the financial district and has a zillion stairways. It was clearly designed for far more people than will ever use now.
Finally, the Nassau Street line the Broadway/Nassau/Fulton station, the Grand Central of Downtown. Some of the riders who get off the A/C to ride to the east side on the packed 4/5 might take the 2nd Avenue instead.
If additional tracks are added later, I believe they should branch off and head for DeKalb as part of that aforementioned Manny B replacement tunnel.
>>I agree with Josh -- hook into the Nassau Street line. It is underused, and well placed.<<
Yup. I've said that you could create a link from B'way Lafayette (6th av) to downtown direction Nassau tracks just before Canal St, with J/Z trains terminating at Canal st. This could be used during bridge re-routes. But putting 2nd. av on Nassau is ok.
>>Second, 2/3 of J/M/Z riders turn uptown on the F. Send the J/Z through the unused portion of Chystie as the V, and just the M downtown. The M can even terminate at Chambers, leaving plenty of room for 2nd Avenue trains.<<
Are those documented numbers? Seems to me that the KK didn't work due to LACK of riders. And that line will look like a loop, something TA planners don't like to do.
>>Finally, the Nassau Street line the Broadway/Nassau/Fulton station, the Grand Central of Downtown. Some of the riders who get off the A/C to ride to the east side on the packed 4/5 might take the 2nd Avenue instead.<<
Which is why you should hook up the express through a new tunnel to the tracks presently known as Transit Museum (Bypassing the station if necessary). Then, People from the Fulton line get more local service, plus a direct east side connection. You can still hook the local tracks to Nassau St. (As you will need 2 second av locals, one to 125th st, and one to Queens at 63rd.). One local can terminate at
Broad, while the other continues through to Bklyn South Division Via montague tunnel (And the fact only the R will be running there)
[Are those documented numbers? Seems to me that the KK didn't work due to LACK of riders. And that line will look like a loop, something TA planners don't like to do.]
Someone from the TA said here a while back that he would like to revive the KK, but that they didn't have a place to reverse the trains.
>>Someone from the TA said here a while back that he would like to revive the KK, but that they didn't have a place to reverse the trains.<<
Who was this? Anyways, it really doesn't matter. Presently, they could run the KK (or K) to 21st. Queensbridge. They don't. I'd like to see a K local, but that's unlikely.
[Presently, they could run the KK (or K) to 21st. Queensbridge. They don't.]
If they did, what would they run on the Nassau line?
I don't think this will really be practical until they build the Second Avenue.
Nice plan. And there will be time to consider it
Thank you - you just jogged my memory. The intended southern terminal is Whitehall Street.
So? Does everyone here really think that that plan won't change? It's changed numerous times since it's inception.
Yes, it could. I was just trying to remember which terminal the MTA had mentioned most recently.
Oh. I didn't realize that.
OK :0)
[The connection with the JMZ is probably the most inexpensive idea so far. And I agree someone should look into it. However, we have to understand, the N and R uses that same tunnel in Brooklyn. And there's already 4 trains serving the 4th Avenue route. Unless they cut the Second Avenue short of Chambers Street. But that will defeat the purpose of having the second avenue line.
I see whitehall street as an alternative because it will dead end on it's own terminus. This will not affect the N or R because it would parallel the line above.]
I was assuming that service would be split evenly between the Nassau line and the 6th Avenue, with half of the trains on each line dead ending in Manhattan. You could as you suggest dead end all the trains on one of the lines, but it seemed to me that using them both would be more convenient for people from Brooklyn. So you'd just send the N (or the R) down to Bay Ridge or Coney Island.
Second Avenue was never intended to tie into Court Street IND. Where did you obtain information to the contrary?
Second Avenue WAS intended to link into the Chrystie Street IND, you can see the tunnel portals north of Grand Street station.
You have some ideal points, but as it stands, you will be lucky to get the entire length of subway from Harlem to Chinatown.
>>Second Avenue was never intended to tie into Court Street IND. Where did you obtain information to the contrary?<<
On this site. A government report said that this would be ideal.
Further, there have been various bklyn plans.
>>You have some ideal points, but as it stands, you will be lucky to get the entire length of subway from Harlem to Chinatown.<<
I know. But it's stupid for a line to have NO direct access to a yard. (present config's support a yard conn through Queens Pl. and 63rd. line Broadway/6th av.
Fine===just keep if off the Manhattan Bridge. I don't want to have another train to worry about sidetracking my Sea Beach. As it is, it has been shafted off the bridge again, and hopes for its return there have been put off until 2004 at the earliest. Hey Train Dude, you seem to be a big guy with the Subway, can't you something for your old buddy Fred on this one?
Train Dude sadly doesn't work in a postion to route trains. At all.
The best and cheapest southern terminus I can imagine will be at Whitehall Street. Or the connection (last stop in Manhattan) with the N and R Broadway Line. This will benefit passengers who are coming from Brooklyn and who want to travel on the far east side. But, of course, the best plan would be to put it in Brooklyn via Avenue U; an earlier proposal that was never initiated.
By the way Jtrainloco, I like your ideas about the new second avenue line on Fulton Street. But I think it would be a disservice to cut it short of Euclid Avenue. I would rather see the line replacing one of those A lines in Queens instead.
Another thing Jtrainloco, I agree that the new second avenue line should operator on second avenue it's entire route. Who ever came up with the idea of ending this line at 125th Street and Lexington Avenue. I think that's a really stupid idea. I would rather this line do two things:
Run it on the old Boston/westchester role up to dyre avenue replacing the #5. (A connection should be made with the #6 at Hunters point). And a third avenue line operating above group should be created. Maybe it can operate across Gun Hill Road to Co-op City.
Wishful thinking... But if some real people got involve, this can happen.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
>>I like your ideas about the new second avenue line on Fulton Street. But I think it would be a disservice to cut it short of Euclid Avenue. I would rather see the line replacing one of those A lines in Queens instead<<
EVERYBODY!!!!!:
This is not really my idea. A report (by the gov't) posted on this site under 2nd av. const. points out that it would be sensible to make this connection. fulton local service is cut in half due to the fact that local & exp share tracks from Hoyt to Canal. A great idea would be:
A-207th st to Lefferts Blvd. or Far Rockaway
C-168st to Hoyt-Schermerhorn st. (note, this plan uses the relay track in-between Flton st and CLinton-Washington Avs. Trains would discharge at Hoyt St., run light to that relay and then resume revenue service at Hoyt st., northbound.)
E-No change
K(Y,X,whatever)-2nd. av express. from (place Bx/uptown terminal of choice here) to Euclid ave bklyn. Rush hours, all trains to Rockaway Pk.. Local on Fulton St. (Note, this line could be sent to Lefferts Blvd. all times instead of Rkwy. Pk. just rush hours.)
The SEPTA Union Guy just said, in no uncertain terms, that they will walk off at noon if no agreement can be reached.
He said "I can promice that in the morning people will be able to get where they're going, but I can't promice they will be able to get home!"
So...FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T TAKE SEPTA TO WORK TOMORROW!!!!!!!!!!
Oh god, he's still on the news and he is REALLY ranting and raving.
Now He just said "I will not be stranging alot of people...SETPA is stranding alot of people."
So much for that chaos. According to septa.org and kyw1060.com, they are still working as of now (4:02 PM).
Then it will be noon of whatever day they strike.
The SEPTA TWU announced that it will strike Jersey Mike the next time he shows up at 8th and Market.
Actually, the union announced that it won't strike as long as Mayor Street is actively involved in arbitration.
The SEPTA TWU announced that it will strike Jersey Mike the next time he shows up at 8th and Market.
Well that would be sometime next week, but :-P on them, I'm taking to R5 out to Haverford.
In the past week or so, I've seen some random grumblings about my behavior on both BusTalk and SubTalk. While some of these grumblings have been unfounded, many or not (at least on this board anyway). So, to appease the masses and becoame a first class poster, I've decided to debut a brand new system of posting. Usually, if someone wanted to read my response, they'd most likely do so with a cautious mind knowing that doing so may sned their blood pressure through the roof, or a PC repairman to their house. On those rare occasions when I do fly off the handle, my post can be riddled with the following; obscenties, mis-information, stupidity, ignorance, insanity, witty and well times sarcastic remarks, and clever arguments among other things. So, tosave lives AND money, I shall be debuting my new "Quality Control Posting Standards" or QCPS for short.
See, normally if your average anti-technology poster was to annoy me and I had clever and witty, but nasty remark, I would just respond to them and wait in fear and anticipation for them to respond as they probably think I've responded in a civil way (well, not anymore, but you know) nd wil be quite incensed to know I've attempted to, or have made a mokery of them. Now, however, thanks to QCPS, they will know what to expect. See, let's say Train Dude and I have at it again. And in one of my depressed I-hate-girls-and the-ground-they-walk-on moods, I deicde to let off a little steam, instead of Train dude being pleasantly surprised and then extrememly pissed off by my post, he will see this in the heAder of my response; WARNING: FLAMING AND/OR SARCASM LEVEL (?) :-(. The level will depend on how mentally unstable I am at the time. So, instead of ripping up valuble MTA documents in his possesion in anger, he will instead say, "Not this time you litle rapscallion." and put me on killfile until I've calmed down, or have gotten laid, whichever comes first (don't bet on the latter).
If the response is a flame free rational argument, I wil put in the header; FLAME FREE, with complimentary smiley face, like so :-). That way he will know what to expect.
I hope this will help me become a better poster and an asset to this site, instead of the clever, young, strikingly handsome pestilence that I may be. Thank you for your time and remember, I use QCPS.
Note: The I in, "IFLAME FREE" in one my response headings is indeed a typo. Repeating: The I in, "IFLAME FREE" in one my response headings is indeed a typo. Thank you.
>>> If the response is a flame free rational argument, I wil put in the header; FLAME FREE, with complimentary smiley face, like so :-). That way he will know what to expect. <<<
An even better way is to post first to the preview, and if when you look at the preview if it does not have "FLAME FREE" and a smiley face, use to go back button on your browser and revise the post so that it can have "FLAME FREE" and the smiley face before you post it.
Tom
[I hope this will help me become a better poster and an asset to this site, instead of the clever, young, strikingly handsome pestilence that I may be. Thank you for your time and remember, I use QCPS.]
If you stay true to this I predict:
- You'll lear more ... some of us old farts do know a thing or two
- And because of that ... enjoy the hobby more
- And if you join a "Field Trip", which are a lot of FUN, you won't have to be afraid to acknowledge who you are for fear of violence.
Mr t__:^)
And you just might prevent others from killfiling you.
That too, as Jason is passionate about the hobby just like a lot of us, but no one likes rocks or mud in their face.
BTW, it was learN vs. lear :-)
Mr t
TA worker commits suicide, at work. STORY
Peace,
ANDEE
That's horrible ... if anyone else out there is despondent over the stocks, understand that we're merely suffering a lack of confidence brought about by political opportunists. The economy is QUITE sound here and abroad. What everybody's missing is that all of the figures investors are expecting now was based on an ANOMOLY, the marketplace rush over "Y2K" which caused a lot of people to buy things out of fear. Comparing numbers today to the blip around Y2K is the reason why so many believe we're failing. We're not. I say this only in the interest of ensuring that others in our "brother and sisterhood" understand that the current upheavals in the financial markets are not worth "pulling the plug" over ... we're really fine though the steady course is at a lower number than it was caused by that "Y2K blip."
Losses are the result of instability, the result of bad advice from the clueless who expected Y2K panic sales every day and caused us the expectations of same. The stocks WILL recover. It's a long term thing and if you don't flip and sell out, you haven't sustained ANY losses. The numbers WILL climb back up again. Might take a year or two, but that amount sounded like a retirement fund and that makes this all the sadder since he would eventually be back up where he was.
PLEASE don't take life so seriously, and be wary of those who do. I'd hate to see any more of my sisters and brothers lose it during these manipulations of our economy by downright evil people. Sorry for taking it off topic here, but I know why the guy was despondent and downturns like these are outside TA counseling ... I'd hate to see anyone else in our focus feel as desperate when a longer-term view would dispell same.
>>> Losses are the result of instability, the result of bad advice from the clueless who expected Y2K panic sales every day and caused us the expectations of same <<<
It is not Y2K which has caused the drop in the price of stocks, it is the widespread purchase of stocks without regard to the fundamental values of the stocks by very many unsophisticated investors. Too many investors thought they were making money because of their shrewd appreciation of market economics when it was really just a bull market. The collapse of the inflated market was as predictable as a Ponzi scheme, and as usual, the real pros will now be making money with short sales while the majority run for cover licking their wounds. Although it is true that the market will rise again and twenty years from now those who got in six months ago will be ahead again, but those who are at the end of their working lives and looked forward to living off their stock market wealth are going to have hard times.
I know nothing about the financial condition of the transit worker who committed suicide over a $200,000.00 stock market loss, but I can see how it would be devastating if he had over the past 30 years paid off a mortgage on his house (he was 57) and then seeing the big bucks to be made in the market, remortgaged the house to the limit with a new 30 year mortgage, and purchased stocks on margin at the peak of the market. Regardless of what the market might do in the future, these losses would bring a margin call which would mean that he would not have the funds available to participate in the later upturn, and might not be able to pay the new mortgage on his house.
Tom
I know this place is the wrong place to detail out the financials, but yes, there were a lot of worthless stocks but at the same time, a number of them did have intrinsic value that could have blossomed. Just in the interest of disclosure, our own company is privately held so we didn't get involved in that IPO silliness. A lot of those who did go for it weren't worth the paper they were on, depending on advertising as revenue equal to broadcasting. That all said, the sales forecasts upon which so many were valued were indeed the result of misplaced market value based on strong Y2k sales of generators, new computers and appliances based on fears of Y2K incompatibilities, which was a one time sale with a long lag to the next sale. Bad advice is behind all this.
I'd hate to think that with history being a perfect teacher that someone would have leveraged themselves to that extent, but that would have been extremely unfortunate. My point was that the guidance from the media on expectations of the "tech" industry was extremely wrong since it was based on "12 month history" and that placed the expectations on numbers that were the result of Y2k sales in software and "technology", one not likely to be repeated.
But this is really getting far and away from what this place is about so I'm very reluctant to go on about it. Bad advice though and political panic inducement are at play here and a lot of people have never considered the one-shot Y2K influence on what people expected from NASDAQ. I'd better leave it there as much as I'd like to spell out the details.
It's really awful though that this guy ended up so cornered that he had to take that step ... he was one of us.
I know nothing about the financial condition of the transit worker who committed suicide over a $200,000.00 stock market loss, but I can see how it would be devastating if he had over the past 30 years paid off a mortgage on his house (he was 57) and then seeing the big bucks to be made in the market, remortgaged the house to the limit with a new 30 year mortgage, and purchased stocks on margin at the peak of the market.
A fool and his money are easily parted.
And there's no shortage of people out there willing to speed up the process.
That's horrible ... if anyone else out there is despondent over the stocks, understand that we're merely suffering a lack of confidence brought about by political opportunists. The economy is QUITE sound here and abroad. What everybody's missing is that all of the figures investors are expecting now was based on an ANOMOLY, the marketplace rush over "Y2K" which caused a lot of people to buy things out of fear. Comparing numbers today to the blip around Y2K is the reason why so many believe we're failing. We're not. I say this only in the interest of ensuring that others in our "brother and sisterhood" understand that the current upheavals in the financial markets are not worth "pulling the plug" over ... we're really fine though the steady course is at a lower number than it was caused by that "Y2K blip."
Some elements in the financial press also should bear part of the blame. Each little dip in the numbers, be it a slight drop in retail sales or corporate profits, just to give a couple of examples, is treated as utterly catastrophic, absolute proof that we're all going to be on the breadlines. JDS Uniphase says second-quarter sales will rise by 80% instead of 90%?? Media hype will send millions of people into screaming panic, causing them to sell their entire portfolios at big losses, nothwithstanding the fact that most of them have no idea what JDS Uniphase does. We all know how most media outlets grossly exaggerate weather events. A few inches of snow becomes the Storm of the Century. Well, the business news is pretty much the same.
In addition to the Y2K issue, there's another reason why tech stocks in particular aren't growing as rapidly as they did recently - the "mature market" factor. Until recently, PC's and cell phones were novelties, or close to it. Most of the people buying them were first-timers. Today, of course, PC's and cell phones are rapidly becoming commonplace; most of the people who'll ever get them already have them. Total sales numbers therefore won't increase as they did a few years ago, as most sales now are made to upgraders rather than first time buyers. Needless to say, the business press has very seldom grasped this particular lesson.
To sum things up, I (barely) made it through the Great Recession in Connecticut during the early 1990's. Memories of that horrible period are still very fresh in my mind. The current slowdown, or whatever you want to call it, is nothing like what I experienced in 1991 and 1992. Absolutely nothing. One anecdote will suffice. In early 1992, a McDonald's in the city where I worked (Middletown CT, pop. about 30,000) put out a help wanted sign. The next day, it made the front page of the local daily newspaper. Sorry, cnnfn.com, CNBC, CBSMarketwatch, et al., things today aren't remotely like that.
Terrible. Tragic. Not much more to say, is there?
That's not the McDonald's on what used to be Conn. route 66, was it? I used to go through Middletown often and got to know that road pretty well.
That's not the McDonald's on what used to be Conn. route 66, was it? I used to go through Middletown often and got to know that road pretty well.
One and the same.
Seeing a "help wanted" sign at that McDonald's, or indeed at any place in Connecticut, in 1992 was sort of like seeing a California condor in your backyard bird bath. God almighty, those were horrible times.
(Seeing a "help wanted" sign at that McDonald's, or indeed at any place in Connecticut, in 1992 was sort of like seeing a California condor in your backyard bird bath. God almighty, those were horrible times.)
Yes, this isn't the early 1990s. And, of course, the early 1990s in the Northeast were nothing like the mid-1970s. Among other things, I ended up spending my last two years of high school in Tulsa Oklahoma (an oil boom town with jobs) after my Dad was out of work for a year.
That said, lots of people got caught up in the mania which drove stocks in general, and some stocks in particular, to crazy highs -- relative to earnings at the peak of a boom. I's say stocks as a group are either fairly valued or slightly high now, if you're looking long term. But like Tom said, those who mortgaged their homes and/or quit their jobs to trade may have gotten very, very hurt.
Another early 1990s Connecticut story: suburban mother and wife secretly gambles her middle-income family's savings away, then runs up big debts, at one of the state's casinos, and then kills herself rather than tell her husband and kids what she's done. We could see some of that, unfortunately.
That said, lots of people got caught up in the mania which drove stocks in general, and some stocks in particular, to crazy highs -- relative to earnings at the peak of a boom. I's say stocks as a group are either fairly valued or slightly high now, if you're looking long term. But like Tom said, those who mortgaged their homes and/or quit their jobs to trade may have gotten very, very hurt.
I'm sure some people like that really suffered. But really, I'm afraid I can't muster up too much sympathy for them. It's not as if no one could have foreseen any risk with NASDAQ stocks. There was plenty of "bubble" talk a year ago, at least enough to put people on notice that tech stocks just might not rise forever. But the moral of the story is that some people will act carelessly when money is involved, and they may end up having to pay the price. That's life.
Another early 1990s Connecticut story: suburban mother and wife secretly gambles her middle-income family's savings away, then runs up big debts, at one of the state's casinos, and then kills herself rather than tell her husband and kids what she's done. We could see some of that, unfortunately.
It's no surprise that Las Vegas has the nation's highest suicide rate.
[It's no surprise that Las Vegas has the nation's highest suicide rate.]
I thought that distinction went to the state of Washington due to all that dreary weather they get.
BMTman
I've heard that too, in either case I could understand why. Maybe most of you aren't old enough to remember when bookies and numbers runners were a way of life for those who liked to gamble. Law enforce-ment made a big deal of it along with the professional do gooders; it was so immoral, families were going hungry from gambling. Then lo and behold New York State comes up with OTB and the lottery, advertises it and now gambling is no longer immoral, families won't go hungry? Give me a break. Many other states have OK'd gambling in various forms, Montana has privately run casinos. With all the other disasters like drugs to we have to encourage a proliferation of gambling. Some can handle it, too many can't.
I remember hearing some of my UConn friends talking about how depressed the economy was in the Northeast during my Homecoming visits in the early 90s.
I remember hearing some of my UConn friends talking about how depressed the economy was in the Northeast during my Homecoming visits in the early 90s.
You couldn't imagine how bad it was. Businesses were closing left and right, real estate values were de-flating, state and municipal budgets were running huge deficits, many commercial buildings were empty, and bank failures were commonplace. It's no exaggeration to say that nothing was going right. But probably the worst thing of all was the way in which people were depressed and dispirited. Few if any families were untouched by the economic collapse.
Ah yes, the fond memories of "President Bush" ... whoops ...
Yes but despite the recessed economy, people like the clintons were still making money through trading futures and shrewd land deals. I wonder if they left the china in the governor's mansion in Arkansas when they left. OOOOps, I forgot. they use paper plates in bubbaland.
I don't like to talk politics here since it's so way off topic but let me share an insight ... the republicans rob the country blind. So do the democrats, only difference being that the dems spread it around a bit. As far as I'm concerned though, believe in either party and you're screwed. Neither of them is looking out for you. I'll leave it there, see you on alt.politics ... or grc.politics. This ain't the place for political car-spraying.
I put in 12 years with the state up here in Smallbany ... OH the stories I could tell from either side of the aisle. Take yer pick, matters not. But I got better, went and got a REAL job after 12+ years as PEF meat. :)
>>> TA worker commits suicide <<<
The story says that this 57 year old allegedly lost $200,000.00 in the stock market. I guess someone forgot to tell him that in the long run the market would go back up again. I am no longer hearing so many people saying that each one of us should be allowed to invest part of our social security in the stock market.
Tom
Watch it happen anyway. There's dogmatics and unfortunately, as sausage makers, they craft the law. I know politics is a no-no here, but so much of our lives (and transit issues) swirl about our elected swine and their polls du jour along with their pandering. Look what they've done to our economy in the name of tax cuts alone. Fortunately we'll all get past it as long as we tell them to stop it.
but so much of our lives (and transit issues) swirl about our elected swine
We don't get elected. You must be thinking of those filthy humans.
Heh. My apologies then.
This story has absolutely nothing to do with transit other than where the unfortunate act took place. It's actually less transit relevant than the homeless person who was found dead on a D train at Stillwell Avenue this morning.
I'm sure glad I spent the last 30 years playing the horses rather than the market!!!
That poor man allegedly lost money in the stock market? I would hope that we learn from his mistakes, and take care of ourselves.
I would not close the book on him so fast, because if further investigation shows that his demise was brought on by others to whom he owed money to, then the picture takes on a whole new and sinister appearance. Just a thought, guys.
ARTICLE about one train buffs fascination.
Peace,
ANDEE
The guy definitely needs some help. I doubt prison's going to provide that. Perhaps they can get him interested in Jody Foster. :)
But seriously, the guy's shunt field is disconnected and he really does need some help. Sure hope someone helps him get past his demons.
C'mon now! I'be been fixated with trains since I was 3 but never stole one. I took apart old radios as a kid but never comitted a crime because of it. I built and flew model planes and rockets in junior high and high school but aside from getting my pilots license, never commandeered an airliner nor turned into a terrorist.
Enough already! Why won't people accept personal responsibility for their actions?! Why is everything the result of a "syndrome" or a "condition?"
There is no reason why he couldn't have applied for a job with the TA. Hell, he probably could teach some of the old-timers a few things (I know a few foamers who are extraordinarily knowledgable about trains). Or, he could have volunteered to work at the Transit Museum. He could have turned that fixation into something useful, rather than committing a crime and placing innocent people in harms way.
>>>Or, he could have volunteered to work at the Transit Museum. <<<
He did at one time, when it was discovered who he was they showed him the door.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey! Hey! I took a train once and I'm as normal as ... well ... nevermind. :)
They should sentence him to do community service in the subway for two days each week- for a nice long time such as car cleaner, station cleaner,etc. under direct supervision If he does well during his community service AND if he stays out of trouble for a long period of time then maybe he could work for Transit. Of course, I tend to doubt that. Transit has high medical standards which often differ from the medical profession at large.
I am over 40- I passed the conductor test but did not pass medical due to bogus medical tests. Most people over 40 do not pass the medical due to bogus tests. At the time I was there last year, one poor guy was on his third revisit. Transit's Docs said to have a certain test done. He did and it was normal- you are fit! Transit said it was indentical to ther results and to find another doc. #2 doc sdaid same thing as did #3 doc- The guy is still on medical hold which is why I just dropped the thing and staying where I am.
The point-- Transit's medical people might consider him to be pschologically unfit and refer him to pschiologist after psychologist(and each would find him normal.)
Personally- I too took apart alarm clocks, radios, etc and I have never done any crime. I know the difference between right and wrong and his actions are just wrong.
People need to understand a key concept--Right and wrong--some things are right and some are wrong with no middle. One day he will end up hurting or kliing a person with his pranks. He should be stopped now! Order himt o say away from transit facillities for a long time after he completss community service plus a hefty fine.I dont think he'll stop till he kills or hurts some one.
I am over 40- I passed the conductor test but did not pass medical due to bogus medical tests.
If you really think they're using the medical to keep you from making a living, have you considered an age discrimination suit? It's almost impossible to do with this a private agency, but with a public one they might really have to watch their fur.
There already is one suit out there which was won by the employee. The rub in my case is not refusing the test but having taken the bogus test.
I too thought like you, and thought of filing a case but decided against it. I know Transit-- they might give me the worst jobs and find the slightest error I make and put me on the street. Sure, tjhey'd wait for the year (so I could not go back to current job.)
I am sure others can tell you, but if you make them mad they get even. I will stay as a Station Agent and enjoy myself knowing I did pass the Conductor and Assistant Train Dispatcher test and save the money which would have gone to other tests.
Each six months I will get better and better jobs and have only at most about 20 years to retirement. Thanks for caring. Long live Transit
Mr.McCollum obviously has a rare if not treatable form of autism and deserves to be treated like a patient of it, not like a career criminal. I think it's really just to sad that theres not some way he can be put to work in NYCT, that wouyld probably cure him real quick to the point where he'd probably shun trains for life. (JK)
No, but seriously, is there no court-ordered community-based treatment that could maybe put him in transit provided certain other conditions are being met, in which case we could harness and positively exploit his preoccupation with trains? He's a railbuff like us, like it or not, and is obviously not a menace to society.
When he took that A train, he probably had it running more on time than the real T/O did! -Peace, and GB, Thomas :/
I agree.... if he loves it so much, just like all of us, why not just let him have a valid job doing it! Why didn't he ever try to join in the first place? I still don't get that. I mean, if I really wanted to be a motorman, I am sure I could get it (eventually), just like any career.
Enough already! Why won't people accept personal responsibility for their actions?! Why is everything the result of a "syndrome" or a "condition?"
Because in this case, it is likely a condition.
Our system imprisonment comes from a belief that people can be reformed, and not that they need to be punished. Look at the titles Department of Correction and penetentiary (comes from the word pennance).
If this person can be reformed via mental care, then that is the way to go. A prison will only teach him how to be more efficient at crime from other criminals.
There is no reason why he couldn't have applied for a job with the TA. Hell, he probably could
teach some of the old-timers a few things (I know a few foamers who are extraordinarily
knowledgable about trains). Or, he could have volunteered to work at the Transit Museum.
He did, in fact, volunteer at Transit Museum for, I think, a few months. But when the TA "realized who he was" he was let go. This was probably a foolish move, since he was doing no harm there. It seems that the flip side of the tendency you noted to label everything a "syndrome" is to believe that these "syndromes" must be "treated" rather allowing solutions that develop on their own to work. Most unfortunate.
Well, in his case, probably both.
I think it's one of the tenets of psychology that's it's OK to have a compulsion if it doesn't ruin your life (or others).
I've known people who go golfing while their kids begin to forget what they look like. Or volunteer firemen who love the work so much they set fires in public places so they can be heroes and put them out.
The fact that his particular dangerous fixation is trains is an aside.
Just about any good thing can become not so good if it's taken to excess. Alas, rail-fanning is one of these things.
It's certainly possible. I've evaluated and coordinated the treatment of patients with this disorder. They can be very functional in areas they're interested in, but they don't get a long well with others. Autistic people have significant cognitive problems; people with Aspergers process information better. I have a long-time friend with autism who is probably on the border, so to speak, with Aspergers.
If McCollum has the disorder (and I couldn't tell without examining him and then consulting a psychiatrist for backup), he could be a highly productive employee in a job where he doesn't have to interact with people a lot. Customer service and public service positions would not be good places for him; but designing maps or sketches or crunching numbers would be ideal tasks.
I've read a few of the other posts here - I'm a little disturbed by the tendency to jump to conclusions, esp. from those with no background or training.
I'm not excusing what he did. But our response should fit the need. If he's competent and not mentally impaired, he deserves punishment and social rehabilitation. If he is, then he also deserves care by the appropriate professionals, and a chance to be economically productive.
I have read in the newspaper that he was arrested for a violent crime once, after his A train adventure, but this article doesn't mention that. Perhaps he really wasn't involved and so the charges were dropped.
Andee it sounds quite like a cross between heypaul's syndrome and the dreaded ERA Foamer's disease.
;-)
BMTman
I really wish the judge would put this fellow in a mental institution instead of a jail cell. Yet I can see the judge's point; getting behind the controls of a train at 15 and impersonating an officer, wow! Though he hasn't caused any harm yet, suppose he were to get control of a J train and hit that S-curve at a high rate of speed? That's just one of any number of nightmare scenarios that could easily come to pass if he isn't brought under control. That said, I really do feel sorry for the man because truthfully, he means no harm. He has pretty much the same fantasies as most of us; he just acts upon them, that's all.
Eric D. Smith
With his knowledge of the system and respect for the equipment, he'd probably do just fine on that S curve!
I vote for BOTH Crime and Affliction.
McCollum has claimed all along to "love" the subway system. People who "love" or respect the subway system to any degree go out of their way to AVOID endangering those who operate and ride it.
Assume for the sake of argument that McCollum DOES have an emotional condition which compels him to steal trains, throw switches, and otherwise endanger the public, AND that he is fully aware of said condition. His deliberate refusal to seek treatment then constitutes FULL INTENT to continue engaging in the same behavior. Therein lies part of the crime.
PATH trains as well as subways are normal with one exception:
The 24 hour entrance from the WTC to the N/R is closed until further notice. PATH says the South entrance will be open 24 hours to the Southbound N/R. No enclosed entrance/exit to the Northbound N/R.
I am off today so I do not know if the part-time booths are Cortlandt will be open 24 hours and likewise I do not know if the main booths will be open as usual or if they'll be closed for some or all of the day.
When I return to work Friday Night for Saturday I will know more and will post at that time.
My suggestion- avoid Cortlandt on the N/R until the entrance reopens. I anticipate major passenger crowding. Customers can exit at Rector or City Hall--both an easy walk to/from the WTC.
I was on a R train southbound. At city hall it was annoucned we were bypassing WTC-Van Courtlant. Surprisingly there were passangers waiting on the platform.
I was on a R train southbound. At city hall it was annoucned we were bypassing WTC-Van Courtlant. Surprisingly there were passangers waiting on the platform
Van Courtlant is in the Bronx !!!
Then the announcement was correct :)
--Mark
No. It would be WTC-Cortlandt. VAN-Cortlandt is in the Bronx !!
Give it a break, Sorry I not as subway nerdy dweeb fomar. I am human and make mistakes and admit to it.
Any update as to the cause of this fire? I work in 2 WTC and had dozens of co-workers who were really really inconveinenced by this damned thing. Luckily, I was safely across the Willy B on my J train before the chaos erupted. The concourse still reeks from the smoke.
In a totally unrelated incident, there was a small fire on the 73rd. floor at 2 WTC today. I'm begining to think the brokers at MSDW are flipping out and starting fires because the markets are tanking....LOL.
The papers said it was an electrical fire due to the motors overheating in the escalator.
DETAILS of Wednesdays commute from hell.
Peace,
ANDEE
Can anyone help me with this mystery?
This might seem a bit esoteric but since I use this station daily, its starting to bug me.
First let me set up the scene for those unfamiliar with this station.
The west side IRT station (2,3) at Fulton Street runs north and south. Its a very narrow platform. If you exit the northbound train at the front and use the northernmost stairway going up, you'll be in a small mezzanine that has 2 old-fashioned wooden "iron-maiden" style revolving door exits and one glass/plastic revolving door that empties into an underground passageway. This leads to another stairway that empties into the lobby of a building on Fulton Street, near the corner of William. There is a barber shop along the underground passageway. There is also a closed stairway adjacent to the glass/plastic revolving door. The mezzanine does not appear to have been renovated, other than the installation of flourescent fixtures, since the day it opened. There is an "abandoned" feel to the whole place, and its pretty neglected.
Now, here's the mystery (to me anyway).
When you go up the stairway from the platform, you can see an old, Dual Contracts era IRT mural on the opposite wall. The mural states "To Fulton Street" and has an arrow pointing north ("---->").
However, that arrow points directly at a blank wall. Since the tilework on that blank wall exactly matches the tilework on the surrounding walls and is in a similar state of age/disrepair, it doesn't seem that there was anything there that was later covered up. So what exactly was this sign pointing to, I thought?
Closer inspection of the area reveals cementwork in the floor adjacent to and below this mural that does not match the rest of the
surrounding cementwork. This area of unmatching cementwork is roughly the size of the cutout used to install a conventional stairway. This suggests that a stairway was at least planned there.
While in that station yesterday morning, I took a quick look at the area again. This time, I noticed that there were five old painted-over corked-up light sconces in the ceiling directly over the area of the unmatched cement - further evidence that a stairway had been there and removed. The ceiling cementwork in the area of the sconces also looked different than the ceiling in the rest of the mezzanine.
Now, here's the mystery: if you walk down the adjacent stairway, while observing the area of the unmatched cement (they are only a few feet apart - its a very small mezzanine) you'll observe that the area of the unmatched cement is directly over the northbound tracks! No part of it is over the platform, as far as I can see. Thus, if in fact there WAS once a stairway there, it would've led directly onto the tracks - an obvious impossibility.
So what is this mysterious area?
I'm going to guess as follows. Joe Brennan once suggested that when the west side IRT route was being planned, there was indecision as to whether the Fulton and Wall Street stations were going to be two-level stations with one track each or a single-level station with two tracks. The latter plan was actually used because of engineering concerns. (Unfortunately, this left both the Fulton Street and Wall Street station platforms very narrow and subject to dangerous crowding.)
So, I'm guessing that when the subject north mezzanine was built at Fulton, the plan in effect at that time called for Fulton to be a double-deck station, with the upper level serving northbound trains and the lower level downtown trains. If that is so, then there wouldn't have been a southbound track running through the station and the "mystery stairway" would not have led onto the tracks. At some point during construction, after the mural and light sconces had been installed and perhaps some stairway construction done, the plans were changed, now making Fulton Street a one-level platform with two tracks. As such, the "mystery" stairway could now not be used, because it would lead onto the tracks, so another stairway, the current one, was built a few feet away. This second stairway leads down onto the middle of the island platform. The old stairway was covered up, but the cement, mural and light sconces remain exposed - witnesses to the change in plans.
Now I might be far off-base here, but mid-construction plan changes are not uncommon in the Contract Two and Dual Contracts IRT and BMT subways - check out Canal Street on the Broadway BMT and Nevins Street on the IRT.
Does anyone know if I'm right? If needed, I can get photos of the area, but I don't know how to scan them in.
Thanks.
Sounds perfectly plausible to me. I remember reading in one of the Dual Contracts articles on this site about the change in plans making the William St. line one level instead of two like the Nassau St. line in the same area.
One of the tings I'm sick of is trying to get to a train on one of the two outer tracks at Main Street while a train arrives on the middle track and lets everyone out onto the same platform that has the next train out. IT'S CRAZY! It could take me two minutes to try to go down a set of stairs that already has a mass of people two across going up, and I'm like the only one going down. Here's an idea that may resolve this problem.
1. The tower operator and the train dispatcher should notice when the middle track at Main Street is vacant.
2. They should also notice which track the next train is on.
3. TwO or TD should radio incoming trains warning them as to which track the train will be arriving on. An example follows.
Train Times Square Local 1259 is approaching Main Street. It is on time and scheduled to arrive at Main Street 1:32 PM
Tracks one and two are occupied. Train Main Street 1333 is scheduled to depart at 1:33 PM. It is on track 1. The TwO or TD should radio the TO of Times Square Local 1259, saying "Times Square Local 1259 be advised to expect a lineup for the middle track. The next train out, Main Street 1333 is on Track One. Advise the conductor to open the doors facing Track two, etc."
4. The TO should advise the conductor of the situation after this transmission.
This would ease congestion and make those last-minute people racing for the next train able to access it.
See article link from today's Chicago Tribune.
The article notes that the CTA is through-routing the Orange and Brown Lines so that trains operate between Kimball and Midway via the Lake and Wabash sides of the Loop. I wonder how the CTA worked out all the logisitics of that manuever on such short notice, especially considering the differences in train lengths and headways between the two lines. My guess is that they're running 6-car trains with reduced headways, since the Ravenswood branch would be unable to handle the Orange Line's 8-car trains, and the Orange Line is already crowded enough with the longer trains.
This is one of those times I'm happy to be riding the Red Line.
-- David
Chicago, IL
As they say in show business, the show must go on.
The city of Chicago is building a protective canopy over steets, sidewalks, and L tracks to protect from falling chunks of terra cotta. Hope to be able to reopen streets and L by Monday morning.
See article.
-- Ed Sachs
Can't wait to see what that does for the gapers. :)
Incidentally, I have a client in the building and it's a total mess, a real throwback to the 20's.
So if we take into account this is happening to buildings 75 years old, what happens to the lovely other buildings like the Trib tower?
I haven't gotten a chance to ride the Fucia (Orange+Brown) line yet :) I'll have to see if I can jump on it today, or if everything is a-ok.
Somehow I doubt the latter.
eric
Latest word is that temporary protective steel canopy has been completed, and streets are reopened. L tracks should be open tomorrow morning.
-- Ed Sachs
Protective canopies in place at troubled Loop skyscraper
Link to article in Chicago Tribune
Joe Malinconico, Star-Ledger's transportation reporter, has an article today saying that Transit will spend $30 million of state and fed money to build a three-story ferry terminal in Weehawken and lease it to Arthur Imperatore (NY Waterway). It is expected to open in 3 years and double the number of passengers (to 11,000) from the present.
The article adds that a ferry from South Amboy to Manhattan, operated by Seastreak of Monmouth County, is expected to start by the end of this year, and another ferry from Belford (near the Navy ammunition pier) should start during the summer of 2002, operated by NY Waterway.
Anybody know exactly which old ferry in Weehawken is being used as a terminal? No such luck it is the remains of one of New York Central"s ferries....I think all but one were disposed of after service ended in l959, except the Niagara which went to Public Service G&E as a floating warehouse.
Just think only about 42 years ago the Weehawken ferry was a big steamboat operation if otherwise a big money loser.A major rail terminal was there, albeit a money losing commuter operation, not to mention the classic (deteriorated) ferry terminal. So now things are being put back, in a different form.Any ideas of a Keansburg-Atlantic Highlands-NYCity ferry? Anyone remember the "City of Keansburg"? [Only good for l0-ll MPH but lots of capacity like the old steam river ferries].
Not trying to make this into Steamboat talk but thought I'd drop a few thoughts on similar things that were once already there. Marine transit in a grander style than a motorboat; rail transit...the West Shore line...believe Public Service trolleys ran to the rail/ferry terminal once but won't swear to it. But even a motorboat type ferry is a great deal if it reduces auto traffic! #7 train to Weehawken, Meadowlands, game tonight..ha ha. All aboard.
Any ideas of a Keansburg-Atlantic Highlands-NYCity ferry?
There is one from Atlantic Highlands to NYC... made the news recently when it grounded during bad weather on the approach to the Highlands.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hi all,
I've fallen behind on the delivery notes.
Can someone volunteer to go thru the delivery notes and help me get them back up to date? Please email me instead of posting here so it comes to my immediate attention.
Also does someone want to volunteer to update the "status" sections of the R110A/B, R142/A faq pages? And maybe to write a "future car order" faq page covering the R143 and R160(?)...
Thanks, I can't do this all by myself...
-Dave
I'll see what I can do with the R142 delivery notes. E-mail is on the way....
-Stef
If possible, send me a copy too, nfi857@aol.com
There's nothing really official that I have to give anyone, Dave has a compiled R-142 delivery page already. Look in the faq for this info. I will merely add to it, based on what I have seen, or what others know.
I have witnessed numerous deliveries of 142s simply because my apartment house is beside an el. With my work schedule these days, I may miss out on the deliveries. When I see something of interest, I post it here, or send mail to Dave.
-Stef
I recently rode on MNRR and I noticed that they have covered their anticlimbers on their M class cars why is this?
Peace,
ANDEE
Hi.
I just like to know if the new subway cars are running the 2 Train. If it do run the 2 Train. What is a chance to get one on the 2 Train?
Dominick Bermudez.
They are running them on the 2 train. I have no clue what the chances are. For actual numbers, check delivery notes of R-142 at www.nycsubway.org
right now your chances is 1 out of how many redbirds on the 2 line. today the stock numbers was 6411-20 you can catch it tomorrow. possibly another one will run along with it or not.
Well, the time has come... As soon as I post this message and make my escape from the office, I'll board a Blue Line train to O'Hare for my 8-hour flight to London. Doubtful that I'll be getting online very much while I'm gone, but I'll be sure to check in if the opportunity presents itself. Expect me back on SubTalk around this time next week.
Mind the gap!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Have a nice time over there.
Dominick Bermudez.
Right. And now for something completely different....
Have a bloody good time, old chap!
--Mark
The paris metro map looks confusing. See for yourself at ratp.fr
>>> The paris metro map looks confusing. <<<
What is confusing about it? I think it has better spatial relationships than the NYC transit map and it has good use of colors and line numbers at the terminals. I think it would be easier for a stranger to get around Paris with that map than for a stranger to get around New York with the NYC map.
Tom
And I'll bet that every Frenchman that gets their first look at a NYCTA map says something like "Sacre bleu!" or "Mon Dieu!" too. Though I've never been to Paris, I have studied their Metro map extensively, and I don't think it is any more confusing than anyone else's large system maps.
I don't think that map is confusing as much as the system is poorly planned/laid out.
You are incorrect on that.. it is actually a beautiful design. You NEVER, EVER need to make more than one change of trains to get virtually anywhere on the system due to the multitude of transfer points (and there are rarely more than one or two such transfer points per any selected pair of lines). Thus, it is not the SHORTEST route that gets you places, it is the least transfers that does the trick. This is a very smart way to cover a city that is not as Centrally-based as NYC or Boston, which depend on the Hub Concept more and thus has less overall coverage. (And the Montreal Metro uses the same philosophy, since it was designed after the Paris one ... except for the subway door buttons in Paris where doors only open if they need to... try that in NY!)
London does that now too -on the Jubilee Line. You press the button when you want to get on.
Central line as well.
The first line in recent years to get these button operated doors was
the District line. But then again the District line had those back in the days
of CO/CP stock.
And in Paris, line 1 and 14 now have automatic doors (MP89).
Line 4 badly needs those as well.
Central Line door buttons now not in use Apparently kids were pressing the close button as they stepped outside so as to get a door in the face of the person behind. Passenger door open always has had a chequered career in London, and probably always will. The one line that really needs it (the Metropolitan, high in the Chiltern Hills at Amersham) doesn't have it, although obviously it did in the days when slam doors were used (until 1962 I think).
>>> Apparently kids were pressing the close button as they stepped outside so as to get a door in the face of the person behind. <<<
I did not realize they had buttons to close the doors. I have only seen trains where the passengers opened the doors, but the conductor closed them from his position. Originally in Paris the passengers had to physically pull the doors open, but you sure did not want to be in the way when the doors automatically closed.
Tom
I found the problem was quite the opposite while I was in London: People on the platforms in the touristy areas wouldn't press the Open buttons and would just stand on the platform staring at the train wondering why only the narrow single leaf doors at the ends of each Central line train car would open.
Ah, the automatic door closing on the old Sprague stock!
The later batch of Spragues closed their doors slowly,
but many of them slammed the doors so rough,
having a broken finger was not so uncommon, I heard.
But it was way before EZ lawsuits and people had more common sense.
In fact, you could open the doors in between stations, when running.
But the very few who did would immediately be warned by the other riders.
Same could be said with British Rail's slam-door stocks.
People were not afraid to tell kids to stay away from the doors when
they were closing, even if the kid was not yours. Somewhat of a lost culture,
even in Paris nowadays.
>>> In fact, you could open the doors in between stations, <<<
Are you sure of that? I know the doors opened before the train came to a halt, and Parisians regularly started getting off the trains while they were still moving (less than 4 mph), but I seem to remember some passengers starting to tug at the handles as the train entered the station, but the doors did not open until the train slowed down quite a bit. There seemed to be some kind of speed lock which prevented the doors from opening at running speed.
BTW I learned about manual doors on the first ride I took when I stood inside the car like a fool waiting for the door to open at my stop. Fortunately one of the ever present polite Parisians suggested that if Monsieur, the imbecile American would get his overfed ass out of the way, he could get off the train, and then he showed me how to open the doors.
Tom
Are you sure of that? I know the doors opened before the train came to a halt, and Parisians regularly started getting off the trains while they were still moving (less than 4 mph), but I seem to remember some passengers starting to tug at the handles as the train entered the station, but the doors did not open until the train slowed down quite a bit. There seemed to be some kind of speed lock which prevented the doors from opening at running speed.
The door closing mechanism on the original cars was very simple. There was an hydraulic piston at each door that pushed them shut. The conductor would actuate these pistons by by pressing a button. Releasing this button caused the pistons to retract and permit the doors to open. The conductor would press the button to close the doors and keep it pressed until the train had left the station.
He would then release the button between stations. The doors would be held shut by their latch. The latch could be opened by anyone. When the train approached the next station the conductor would again press the button and keep it pressed until the train had slowed sufficiently.
There certainly were no sensors or interlocks to determine whether or not the doors were completely closed. There do not appear to be any interlocks on the new cars either. I was on an RER about 20 years ago that ran between Etoile and Opera with its doors open. It's a miracle that nobody was sucked out of that car during the ride.
I guess I was too late to check back....
Thank you for the explanation of the door closing system.
>I was on an RER about 20 years ago that ran between Etoile and Opera with its doors open.
That's weird, but possible...
All cars made after MP59 (maybe even earlier) were fitted with door lights and latches.
Back in around 74, I remember the doors on MP73 stayed locked all the way,
in between the stations.
Then again, many of the MS61 on the RER A showed signs of tireness
as early as the late seventies, therefore a train running with its doors open
could have been possible.
And on the old Z stock of the RER B and on SNCF Standards (3rd rail powered),
it was not so rare to see trains with some doors open.
>with door lights and latches.
I meant locks.
speaking of doors that open the hblr has buttons near the door that you press to open the doors.
"...imbecile American would get his overfed ass out of the way...." During my visits to Paris, I noticed how few overweight people I saw.
I bet that if the polite Mr. Paris-Metro-Regular-Rider knew how much we overfed American imbeciles subsidized the Metro and SCNF with USA tax dollars, he might not treat us so rudely (not).
This is via "US" transit consulting/engineering/etc. companies owned and operated by the Paris Metro and SCNF (both French gov't agencies) obtaining multi-million dollar contracts from our own publicly owned transit agencies.
Interesting, no? All info is freely available on the net. Just check on who has been getting the contracts lately, and check out their own websites and the links!
>>> "US" transit consulting/engineering/etc. companies owned and operated by the Paris Metro and SCNF (both French gov't agencies) obtaining multi-million dollar contracts from our own publicly owned transit agencies. <<<
Are you saying that these contracts are being entered into to provide some kind of subsidy to the French? I hardly think so. It really demonstrates how far behind the cutting edge rail transit technology we are in comparison to the French.
As far as the Parisians' general attitude to foreigners is concerned, it makes a New Yorker feel at home.
Tom
Thus, it is not the SHORTEST route that gets you places, it is the least transfers that does the trick.
I guess I could drive to New Orleans by way of Chicago or I could use a few extra brain cells and drive direct.
The Paris Metro system twists and turns w/o rhyme or reason. They should have bulldozed that city, install grid streeting and 4 track subway trunk lines with express service.
troll
Hopefully someone at French Immigration is adding your name to the list of people to turn back at the airport ;-)
-Dave
They did that after the first time I went there.
So from now on I have to take the Chunnel ;)
Their sinuous lines originally saved the need of extra crosstown lines.
When the capacity and speed eventually became a problem, they built the RER central connection.
Sort of like connecting GCT and LIRR Flatbush Ave. via Penn Station, the Village/SoHo, Financial District,
with express stops only. And you can use the "carte orange"(their metro card) on any lines/railways/buses,
as long as you're in the card's valid zones.
Yes, the construction seemed endless in the 70's and was called a waste of public funding but
the central connection's success was so huge, they had to later double the tracks in some sections.
I've always wished NYC had done the equivalent. They should have built the double-track 2nd Ave. line
in the 70s. Then, probably when ridership came back in the 90s, we'd be talking about adding two
more tracks...
But no... My wife suffers commuting on the M15 everyday. I once showed her the map of the 2nd Ave. line,
and she wasn't happy. " My commute could have been just three subway stops?"
:-)
True, the fewest number of transfers gets you there fastest in Paris. But, Rob, I did have to make more than one transfer to get to where I wanted to go when I was there last week. True, I could have walked. But central Paris is a difficult place for walking because of narrow sidewalks and short blocks which are not laid out in a grid. Hence, the value of the metro. Even though the trains are slow and the distance between stops is equal or less than the distance between, say Beverley and Cortelyou Roads, they do get you there faster than walking. The metro trains run on short headways, every two minutes, and the lines I frequented (mid-days and evenings)were always crowded, especially the #6. The cars are of New York's "A" division dimensions, though, and the trains are 5- or 6-car consists. Thus, have much less capacity than New York trains. The elevated portions of the Paris metro are certainly aesthetically more pleasing than the elevated portions of New York's sytem.
I'd use the RER insted of the paris metro.
If you have ever used it you would know that it's nigh impossible to get lost on it. The metro was designed so that no point in Paris is more than a fraction of a km from a station. I'm fairly sure the fraction is 1/4.
The worst part of the system is all of the Americans who know nothing about using public transit.
The worst part of the system is all of the Americans who know nothing about using public transit.
I haven't been to Paris yet, but this was something I noticed on the London Underground. To a much more limited extent, I've seen it in Toronto as well. Last summer an American came up to me in the Yonge station (the downstairs half of the Yonge & Bloor station)asking how to transfer from the "Green Line" (Bloor-Danforth is shown in green on the maps) to the "Yellow Line" (Yonge-University-Spadina is shown in yellow). This guy wouldn't have had any trouble if he read the names of the lines and looked at the many signs in the station which clearly indicate where the "Yellow" subway line is located and how to get there so you arrive on the correct platform in order to get trains travelling in the direction you want to go...
Today we were at Concourse yard to be familiarized with the R-68 & 68A. Union Square Wreck car 1369, which had been cut in half, was placed back on the same track with a brace holding the 2 halves together. We're looking at the mangled interior, and I see that there are ads still on the walls and lights (those that were still in place), and figure it would be another time capsule of old ads you haven't seen in years-- just like in the R-10's and 30's used as school cars (and also the museum cars). But I notice one of the ads is for a dot-com company. And all the ads on that side are for the company. Now I'm thinking "were there dot-coms ads 10 years ago?" No; even though the internet was around, it still wasn't as mainstream as in the late '90's where it began to be used by everyone. And the first full-side-of-the-car ad was Fruitopia (c.1995). On the other side was the another full length ad. Then, I noticed a recent map! It didn't have 63rd, (the current) but looked like the one right before it, that is still up everywhere.
So this is pretty odd, like the car is being treated as if it's still in circulation, even though the floor is touching the ceiling in the middle, and it's only waiting there until all legal action is competely over before being disposed of for good. When I pointed this out, the instructor mentioned something about some Federal mandate, and I didn't quite get what he was saying.
>>Union Square Wreck car 1369,...
Reckon, 1369 is the "Fordam Collision" car
whereas 1437 was Union Sq. victim (whom was
scrapped and hauled off-yard 2 or 3 weeks ago..
Eric,
1369 was wrecked at Fordham Rd last year in a collision with another R-62 set, both headed for the wash (10/00). The original Union Square Wreck Car, 1437 was carted away last month. It's still there? Train Dude mentioned sometime ago that 1369 was supposed to be moved. It resides by itself with no company to keep. I wander why this wasn't carted off right away since the carbody is beyond repair.
-Stef
HERE is 1437 saying bye-bye to concourse yard last month.
Peace,
ANDEE
HEREis 1369 at scene of Fordham collision.
HERE is 1369 at concourse yard shortly after accident.
Peace,
ANDEE
HERE is 1369 at scene of Fordham collision.
HERE is 1369 at concourse yard shortly after accident.
FYI, when I tried to look at these pictures I got a message saying "Access forbidden from external hosts."
Thanks, Peter. I believe I have fixed the problem.
Peace,
ANDEE
No you haven't. I'm getting the message too.
I don't know what it is, It seems to be intermittent.
Try these,
1369 at concourse yard after the accident.
1369 at scene of Fordham Accident.
Peace,
ANDEE
... worked for me.
--Mark
The repost doesn't work for me (IE 5.0). For those of you who may have the same problem I have: the original post worked after I manually entered a ? at the end of the address, and chose "Open file from current location."
Andee, that "Access forbidden from external hosts" message is back from your two links about 1369. How come, any why does your site give it?
I don't know. It seems to be intermittent.
Peace,
ANDEE
I wonder what became of 1437's number plates?
-Stef
Collectors, per chance 8-0.
Peace,
ANDEE
I guess the instructor assumed it was the two halves of 1437 put back together. (I just took his word for it, knowing that remains of the wreck had been stored there.) I knew 1437 was one of the cars involved, but there were other cars wrecked at Union Sq., and I thought this was one of them. I didn't realize that any car was damaged this bad at Fordham Rd.
As to why the car is still there, as I said, if there's any investigation or any type of case still going on, it must be kept there as "evidence".
Remember the discussion we had a ways back about some very real looking car signs which contained a humorous message some prankster was putting up? Like the "Do Not Hold Grudges" on some subway car doors and the "Karma Conditioned Car: Please Open Minds"? Well, today on R40M #4522, running on the J line, placed right next to the sign which said Please, followed by three pictographs denoting no littering, smoking and radio playing, there was a sign which said: "Please: No Windstorming", and it contained a pictograph of a man holding on to a pole as he is blown by a strong wind.
Anyone have a clue as to who is doing this? The signs are identical to the legitimate signs, denoting some serious time and effort being put into making them. I personally had to point it out to my friend, who swore the sticker was legit!
I used to like the subway signs above the seats that placed a thought balloon above the passenger. I got a kick out of those.
Train Buff Headquarters
I'm drawing a thought balloon over MY HEAD just trying
to remember these signs you speak of...
Great! A pictograph answer. The ads in question were more like Public Service Announcements. The thought balloon ran something along the lines of:
Oh no ...Not again... I hope he doesn't stop in front of me...Don't they know panhandling is illegal...
Hope this adds some color to an otherwise boring car.
The signs I saw were not intended to be anything official. They are exact replicas of real TA signs, but containing a humorous message. The "Do not hold grudges" sign I saw on the R33's a few years back were placed over the "Do not hold the doors" signs on each door leaf. Thy are clearly unofficial.
You 2 are talking about 2 different things.
Well, duh. LOL.
that Train Buff site is so friggin funny..especially the SLOPP link..I haven't even finished it and I'm LMAO..
the guy who is doing this (rumor has it) goes by the name of W.A.Z., but thats word on the street from a recent benching i have attended
HYSTERICAL!! Scary thing is that it seems that many conductors/TO's/BO's have following this program for years!
WHAT DO THEY LOOK LIKE? IT SOUNDS FUNNY HERE IS A GREAT ONE: "DO LEANE ON DOOR".
Today I saw an R-68A with ALL of it's north terminal signs messed up. All of them had an upside down Borad Channel, Queens displayed from the outside, and the inside showed: -------------- (blank)
How does this happen to a whole train? Either incompetence, or vandalism (I really hope it's the latter....)
Finally, one of the signs seemed to display something about Grand Concourse. Anyone here know what B division terminal has the words 'Grand Concourse' in it's name?
[Anyone here know what B division terminal has the words 'Grand Concourse' in it's name?]
167 Street-Grand Concourse
It seems the census bureau has counted 8.0 of the 8.5 million people in NYC. While disappointing, it's better than 1990, when they counted 7.3 of the 8.3 million people.
The big surprise so far -- Manhattan. The city came in 600,000 over the census bureau's estimate, due in large part to NY City Planning pointing out all the housing units missing from their address list. But Manhattan came in BELOW the bureau's prior estimate. Must be lots of rent-controlled pied-a-terres.
thats good! maybe we can get some representation from congress.
Unfortunately, since other states grew fastewr in population, NY will still lose a bit in Congress. But the city may do well in the State Assembly...
I've mentioned the likely 8m number in this forum previously because of what I think is the most important factor: the psychological impact in the heartland.
NYC to the country: we didn't drop dead!
For about half a century, that has been the perception. This place is dying, on its way out. Now we're at an-all time record high population. We're already the largest city. We're already the financial capital. And as Moynihan always pointed out, Gingrich aspersions to the contrary, we are a huge net contributor to the federal purse.
Washington, time to open the transit budget and get generous with our projects! They cost more, but they also have many more riders. East Side Access will, overnight, create the nation's fourth largest commuter rail system. T-21 is about to be reauthorized. The news is very timely.
Actually, New York City's population peaked in the 1950s at over nine million. In one episode of the Honeymooners, Ralph is telling Alice about how he had a debate at work about the city's population. Ralph said it was seven million, the other said it was nine. I, forgetting this was years ago, thought that Ralph was right. That is until Alice told him the population is nine millon.
That isn't my primary source of information for the nine million figure.
[That isn't my primary source of information for the nine million figure.]
The Times is saying 8 million is a record:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/16/nyregion/16CENS.html
They have some interesting historical demographic maps
IIRC New York's population also topped 8 million in the mid-60s.
You're right Steve. Remember this phrase from a famous TV show of the late 50's:
"There are eight million stories in the naked city.
This has been one of them."
From the tv show, "The Naked City", which debuted on CBS in the fall of 1958. It starred John McIntire and James Franciscus.
My favorite show, I was a extra walk on once in Oct 58, when the shot a scene across from The University Settlement house on Eldridge St where I was quite active back them, after attending their Summer Camp. Made a $100, a lot of money back then to a 16 year old. By the way I will be off line, while I meet with Sea Beach Fred on Tuesday to plan our stratagdy for him be Mayor of NY, and then off to Hawaii to save my marriage. Talk to you guys after the 28th
>>> New York's population also topped 8 million in the mid-60s <<<
I too remember the figure of 8 million being used in the early ‘50s, and also learning in school that New York was the largest city in the world. That certainly is not the case anymore. I got the following figures (in millions) from a German website showing the largest cities in the world New York is now # 9. Some caution should be used in comparing the figures since they come from different sources and were generated at different times, a few as early as 1990, and some as late as 2000. When political boundaries are ignored to give figures for a metropolitan area, New York comes in second to Tokyo.
Manila............................10.49
Seoul..............................10.23
Mumbai (Bombay)............9.93
Sao Paulo.........................9.79
Shanghai...........................9.54
Mexico City......................8.59
Moscow............................8.39
Tokyo...............................7.97
New York City................7.42
Beijing..............................7.34
Delhi.................................7.21
London.............................6.64
Tom
(IIRC New York's population also topped 8 million in the mid-60s.)
I've got the NYC population for every census since 1790 here at home, and I guarantee it never topped 7.9 million in any prior census. There might have been a mid-decade estimate at eight million -- City Planning routinely forecast eight million in those days. Both 1950 and 1970 were at about 7.9 million.
In reality, I believe the actual 1970 figure was a little higher than today. 1970 was the first year they went to the mail-in mail-back method, and I believe it was the first massive undercount. In 1990, we found the 370,000 housing units and made the bureau count them.
I want to see the adjusted data. The track data shows declines in Black neighborhoods that I suspect is not real -- that's where the low census response rate was as well. I'll bet that with adjustment our pop is about 8.4 million, and that is a more accurate figure.
New York State will lose 2 seats. Those lost seats will - for the most part - be from upstate. NYC will effectively lose some representation, though. In 1990, NYC had 40.7% of the state's population. In 2000, that has grown to 42.2%.
My best guess is that there will be the same number of congress-people representing NYC, but that their districts (for those along the Nassau and Westchester borders) will also include larger portions of the suburban areas than they currently do.
(That being said, the ridiculous district -- I believe it is currently Ackerman's ?? - along the north shore of LI with bits of Queens, Nassau and Suffolk is a likely candidate to be restructured significantly.)
That's my district. I aggree it's a bizzare one. I'm also disapointed with Ackerman fro not even voting on Shrub's tax plan. But THAT's another story.
:-) Andrew
Only if the city became a separate state from the rest of New York State. With more than 8 million people, we'd be better represented than most states in the U.S. But since New York is losing three seats, we're only going to get less representation in Congress.
We are only losing two seats. Since the congressional districts in different states are of fairly equal size, it is likely that the number of representatives in the city itself will increase. The number of districts elsewhere in state will decrease.
Now that is of course if New York City's growth rate is the same as or greater than that of the United States at large.
Also, singleton states (states with only one representative) have probably dropped in population or grown too slowly, but they cannot lose representation. The State of Wyoming, number fifty in population, is America's smallest congressional district by population, even if it's one of the largest by area (although it can't hold a candle to Alaska, #48).
We are only losing two seats. Since the congressional districts in different states are of fairly equal size, it is likely that the number of representatives in the city itself will increase. The number of districts elsewhere in state will decrease.
Both of the "lost" seats should come from Upstate if you go by population figures. But it's up to the state legislature to make the decision, so right now we can't say which seats will be lost.
If the city loses a seat, then border suburban seats from Nasty and Westchester would end up expanding into Bronx and Queens, making them more democratic (actually, it would seem to me that Yonkers and Mount Vernon are already liberal).
>>>....Nasty and Westchester...<<<
Don't you mean Wastechester?
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe, but Westchester ain't so bad.
It's only Nasty that I need to make fun of, not even Suffolkate.
And we Californians will be more than happy to snap up your two seats with great pleasure since we are due to pick up a couple----again.
Go West young man, go West.
And we Californians will be more than happy to snap up your two seats with great pleasure since we are due to pick up a couple----again.
Sorry, California will gain only one.
Your state's rapid growth is over. In 1990 you gained SEVEN seats.
Go West young man, go West.
With revulsion.
BTW, I resent being condescendingly called "young man." I don't call you old man (which would also be condescending).
Go West Young Man was a quote given by Horace Greeley back in the 1840's. You're not as up to date on American Literature as in other subjects. And just be fortunate that you can be referred to as a young man. Believe me, one day you will wake up and you will not be young anymore----and you would wish to hell that someone, anyone, would call you by that term again. Anyway, have a great Sunday.
"It seems the census bureau has counted 8.0 of the 8.5 million people in NYC"
The census bureau is probably much closer to the actual number than that statement indicates. As I'm sure you're aware Larry, City Planning has plenty of incentives to have assumptions which are biased high and very few incentives to pick assumptions which will bias their estimate toward the low side.
In the results I've seen thus far, 10-year growth rates in metro NYC's urban areas seems to indicate that the Census Bureau did a much better job of getting an accurate count this time around.
CG
What exactly is a "pied-a-terres"? -Peace, Thomas
What exactly is a "pied-a-terres"?
Literally "foot to the ground" in French, it means a usually small apartment owned by a rich person who spends only part of his or her time there, but wants something a little more permanent than a hotel room. For instance, a celebrity whose main house is in California but who spends a few months out of the year in New York might have a "pied-a-terre" as an alternative to staying in hotels. Or you might have a large corporation headquartered elsewhere that owns one for the CEO to use on his trips to New York.
I was in the WTC mall today and saw that the main entrance to the N/R is boarded up and smelled of smoke. They weren't letting anyone even near there. Looks like the escalator fire was there. Now you have to go all the way to the other end of the station to get access from WTC. Hopefully they will re-open the entrance soon.
I must've been lucky today or what. I took LIRR to Atlantic ave/Flatbush. There were Redbirds all over the 4. I took a Manhattan bound 4 to 125th street. The ride through Jerolemon tubes was great, as well
as the Lexington express. And how they fly into 59th street!
Love the way those express tubes smell.
Then going back I had ANOTHER Redbird 5 from 125th street to 14th. I saw an R142 that said "Not in service" on the local track, the only people were in the front car (training,testing?).
Later I took a 2 train from Park Place to 96th street. Another fast ride, actually the speed on the 7th ave express is frightening!
Going back from 96th street was another fast one and a Redbird (2 train).
Most of 'birds I rode on looked like older ones, like R29's or something, but boy those things could live forever.
And I was able to get the railfan window on every train I took. Midday is a better time for railfanning, since the trains are less crowded.
And then a 7 express going back, which was a mainline R36. Corona has alot of mainline cars now.
And I never had to wait long for any train today. It seems trains are more frequent on division A (IRT) than division B (BMT,IND).
I have a feeling the Redbirds will be around for a while or two, since those R142's are coming in slower than turtles. :-)
They are great, aren't they? I wish that some kinda compromise could be made. Can't they get new equipment but still keep the same flavor as they older cars? Someday the railfan window will be gone. How many subway railfans started out as wide-eyed kids staring out the front window of a speeding express train? Now...?
Riding the Redbird 2 or 3 when I was a kid living in NY was real fun. Particularly the run between 14th and Chambers where the express tracks are in a bit of an incline due to a curve by Christopher/Sheridan Sq. You thought the train was flying off the tracks.
Jose
Dallas, TX
Too young to have ridden a redbird 3 but the 2 between 42nd and 72nd, right at 59th, is my favorite part. It is so fast and you get the same feeling.
The 2 under the Harlem River between 135th and 149th is a fun run and so is the run under the East River between Wall and Clark but the latter is harder to find a fast train for.
Too bad you couldn't have experienced riding the High-V and Low V over that line way back when. That was some 40 years ago but the line from 96th-Chambers was a blast with the old equipment as was the Lexington. Few timers, and in those days the equipment ran at design speed, not held back as they are now. If the redbirds are your only bag you should have been around when they were new! Regards, from a relic.
That is what fun on the subway is all about and a very good reason to love New York. Boy do I wish I was there now.
Simon
Swindon UK
>>I must've been lucky today or what. I took LIRR to Atlantic ave/Flatbush. There were Redbirds all over the 4. I took a Manhattan bound 4 to 125th street. The ride through Jerolemon tubes was great, as well
as the Lexington express. And how they fly into 59th street!<<
Redbirds have always had pretty high 4 line service.
>>Then going back I had ANOTHER Redbird 5 from 125th street to 14th.<<
The 5 is practically all redbirds. You can easily see the following on Lex:
express 4 train of redbirds followed by a local 6 of redbirds, followed by an express 5 of redbirds, followed by a set of redbird 4's, then R-62 6 local and a set of redbird 5's. That's 5 sets of redbirds in a relatively short time.
>>And I never had to wait long for any train today. It seems trains are more frequent on division A (IRT) than division B (BMT,IND).<<
Lex lines get more service than any other line. West side IRT also has high ridership. Thus the high service. B division lines don't get as much service (xcept 6th av and queens blvd.)
........woooooopeeee!!!!!!
...that is good news " redbirds will be there when we return the summer of 2002 " !!!!
Um, yeah. So that give you about a year, if that? Whoooo. Hopefully they won't disentergrate on the tracks. Wouldn't want to deprive those fish of their new homes now would we? But, I should've known you'd jump into any thread with the words Red and Bird.
Also, according to the TA, 108 new train sets are supposed to be inservice between December 2001 and March 2002. I'm supposing none of these trains will kill ONE Redbird set? Mmmkay.
Also, do you just like these thing because they're old and have a railfan window? I'm thinking a few other car-types have railfan windows as well. It's not the end of the world if you don't get one anyway. Is that what's so special about these things? Oldness and windows? I guess there's a little nostalgia involved there, but we busfans wax poetic about 1977 RTS buses and 1980 Grummans. Anything in that time period is relatively new for a subway car. But, they don't make RTS-03s anymore and Flxible went out of business. We actually have something to cry about. You're crying over a window and rusted out cars you've had forty years to enjoy. Some of our favorite buses don't last 15 years, but you don't see us boo-hooing and cursing newer buses with minor door and sign problems. But, perhaps I've digressed too far, so I hope you enjoy your Rustbirds for a little while longer. Me, I can take comfort in knowing that they still make RTS buses. You should take comfort in knowing they still make subway cars, which thankfully are built better and loaded with more technology than 40 year old piles of corroding rust. But, I won't say anything about that.
hold it ! now i do not want to dissapoint you about your OLDER flxible bus ( I drove bluebirds -buses ) & I am sure replacement
of old equipment is on the way BUT dont get mad because I already have one motorman who let me shoot inside his r 62
( transverse full cab ) equipped & I may ahve some more RABBITs up my long sleeve to pull out ! EVEN here in lost angeles
a motorman who operates the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE let me install my sony tr416 inside next to his operation panel !!
What I am trying to say is there is more than ONE WAY TO SKIN A CAT until he is raw meat!! ( LOL ) ( smile )
& while your are dwelling on those smelly FLXIBLE buses be sure to trade them in on a new MCI !!! Finally check out how
those older 40 year old subway cars just keep on taking a licking & keep on ticking !! Woooo! Woooo! those good old redbirds!
Man they were really BUILT STRONG & lasted a long time didnt they ?? & please lets not "pollute the ocean " dropping
them on some FISH they have a hard enough time dealing with the enviromental waste being DUMPED on them !! Geeeeez
its getting so no fish is safe enough to eat now you want to feed them " redbirds" ??? ( lol) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Um, I don't really like "smelly" Flxibles.
Um, yeah. So that give you about a year, if that? Whoooo. Hopefully they won't disentergrate on the tracks. Wouldn't want to deprive those fish of their new homes now would we? But, I should've known you'd jump into any thread with the words Red and Bird.
Also, according to the TA, 108 new train sets are supposed to be inservice between December 2001 and March 2002. I'm supposing none of these trains will kill ONE Redbird set? Mmmkay.
Also, do you just like these thing because they're old and have a railfan window? I'm thinking a few other car-types have railfan windows as well. It's not the end of the world if you don't get one anyway. Is that what's so special about these things? Oldness and windows? I guess there's a little nostalgia involved there, but we busfans wax poetic about 1977 RTS buses and 1980 Grummans. Anything in that time period is relatively new for a subway car. But, they don't make RTS-03s anymore and Flxible went out of business. We actually have something to cry about. You're crying over a window and rusted out cars you've had forty years to enjoy. Some of our favorite buses don't last 15 years, but you don't see us boo-hooing and cursing newer buses with minor door and sign problems. But, perhaps I've digressed too far, so I hope you enjoy your Rustbirds for a little while longer. Me, I can take comfort in knowing that they still make RTS buses. You should take comfort in knowing they still make subway cars, which thankfully are built better and loaded with more technology than 40 year old piles of corroding rust. But, I won't say anything about that.
Note: When I previewd this message, and then came back to make corrections, my subject header was erased. So I reposted the message to keep in compliance with my QCPS.
ok holmes !!!
Several LIRR construction questions. Today I saw track workers, machines, and a truck on wheels (rail) on the tracks just before Babylon trains from the viaduct come down and join the mainline. Are those tracks closed part-time or full time? Last time I rode a Babylon train they had 'em all going down the Atlantic line (with the Far Rockaway and Long Beach trains), with track workers on the northern tracks.
On the Flatbush train, just like last time we wrong railed to the E/B tracks. As we sped through the tunnel (and really sped) I saw track workers and lots of machinery on the W/B track. We switched back just before East NY, but they slow trains down way ahead of that, ita ppears there's a curve ahead of the switch.
There was an E/B train waiting for us to cross. I can't imagine them having this going on at peak hours.
Hopefully they just do this work off peak and weekends. But I still miss those Babylon express tracks!!
Yeah I think I saw the abandoned (Woodhaven?) station on the LIRR Atlantic line today. You can clearly see the walls further away from the tracks and what appears to be a platform.
Also like those old BMT style tunnel lights.
They've been doing work along the Babylon tracks during the off-peak hours. All tracks are open during peak times. They were doing something near Lynbrook last weekend, and had all of the westbound trains wrong railing from Rockville Centre to Valley Stream
CG
What about weekends? I haven't been on the Babylon tracks in awhile, and don't ride LIRR at peak fare.
It has been suggested that the problem of cell phone use on
trains is equivalent to that of chatty persons having face-to-face
conversations. While they may both be equally annoying, the former
has the potential (and it is often realized) to be much worse.
The primary difficulty is that the cell phone user is unable
to give or receive "body language". This not only makes the
conversation more verbose, but also removes an important feedback
path by which the other party can indicate a desire to
terminate the conversation, or to move on to another topic, or
that the speaker's tone of voice is excessive.
Next is the probabilty of the annoying conversation itself. In
order for it to happen in-person, there have to be at least
two people willing to talk to each other who share a common
path or subpath in their commute. This naturally limits the
number of people engaged in conversation on the train.
When speaking face-to-face, the participants are usually face-to-face.
They project their voice at the person to whom they are speaking.
A cell phone user projects his or her voice casually at no
specific target, which more often than not turns out to be
the adjacent innocent bystander.
Long pauses in face-to-face conversations are considered acceptable.
When a subject is exhausted, perhaps a minute of silent contemplation
goes by before the conversation picks up again. Such long spans
of "dead air" aren't tolerated in a phone conversation. Rather,
one or both parties fills up the channel with inane glue chatter
until another topic comes up.
The party on the other end of a cell conversation doesn't always
understand the environment of the cell phone user. This can
more often lead to extremely personal or emotional conversations
than would be likely in a face-to-face meeting in such a public
setting as a crowded rail car.
Modern cell phones are too small. When resting against the ear,
the microphone is too far away from the mouth. These phones
also have too little sidetone, which leads the user to shout
in order to be heard.
>>> The primary difficulty is that the cell phone user is unable to give or receive "body language". This not only makes the conversation more verbose, but also removes an important feedback path by which the other party can indicate a desire to terminate the conversation, or to move on to another topic, or that the speaker's tone of voice is excessive. <<<
This is no more true for a cell phone than it is for any other telephone. Most of us have had enough practice talking on telephones to compensate for the lack of visual clues in a telephone conversation.
>>> Next is the probabilty of the annoying conversation itself. In order for it to happen in-person, there have to be at least two people willing to talk to each other who share a common path or subpath in their commute. This naturally limits the number of people engaged in conversation on the train. <<<
Of course many people travel alone on the subway and not only do not talk to anyone else, but also avoid eye contact with anyone else. But when people do travel in groups of two or more, they frequently speak with each other, but do not seem to bring down the wrath of the cell phone haters (who I believe are those who have not yet purchased a cell phone but would like to have one).
>>> When speaking face-to-face, the participants are usually face-to-face. They project their voice at the person to whom they are speaking. A cell phone user projects his or her voice casually at no specific target, which more often than not turns out to be the adjacent innocent bystander. <<<
Although face to face speakers may be talking directly to each other, I have noticed while riding the L.A.M.T.A., both buses and rail, the conversations can be heard by those within two or three seats of those speaking, and frequently farther. Cell phone users who speak in a louder tone than necessary either have extremely inferior telephones, or have never bothered to check how loud they need to talk to be heard on the other end or are consciously trying to bring attention to themselves. This is a problem with the user, not the phone. I know whenever I am speaking on my phone in a public place, including on public transportation, I cup my hand over my mouth and the mouthpiece of the phone and speak barely above a whisper because I do not want to put my business in the street. I have previously tested how well my voice carries over the phone by calling my answering machine and leaving test messages while speaking at different volumes, so I am aware of the minimum voice level which can be comfortably heard on the other end.
>>> Long pauses in face-to-face conversations are considered acceptable. When a subject is exhausted, perhaps a minute of silent contemplation goes by before the conversation picks up again. Such long spans of "dead air" aren't tolerated in a phone conversation. Rather, one or both parties fills up the channel with inane glue chatter until another topic comes up. <<<
My experience has been that if there is a pause in a telephone conversation, one of the participants will say goodbye and the conversation will end. I know I am rarely on any telephone longer than five minutes at a time, with most of my phone calls lasting less than two minutes.
>>> The party on the other end of a cell conversation doesn't always understand the environment of the cell phone user. This can more often lead to extremely personal or emotional conversations than would be likely in a face-to-face meeting in such a public
setting as a crowded rail car. <<<
Even if the person on the other end of the telephone call does not know the cell phone user's environment, the cell phone user does, and can inform the other person of where he/she is and postpone the personal or emotional conversations to a more appropriate time. Once again it is the user, not the cell phone which is coming up short.
>>> Modern cell phones are too small. When resting against the ear, the microphone is too far away from the mouth. These phones also have too little sidetone, which leads the user to shout in order to be heard. <<<
This is not true. Just as those being interviewed on television wear small microphones attached to their clothing quite some distance from their mouths, modern small cell phones can easily pick up a normal tone of voice without the user shouting. The real problem with using a cell phone in a train would be with the ambient noise, and cupping the hand over the mouth and microphone overcomes that.
Although this may sound a bit like the NRA line, it is a simple truth that cell phones do not annoy people, obnoxious inconsiderate cell phone users do. Because of the reduction of price of cell phones, you are now getting a large influx of new users, many of whom want to show off their new toys, and call attention to themselves. This will wear off, and although conversations will continue in public places, they will not be so noticeable or annoying once they are as common as seeing people speaking on a public telephone.
Tom
"The party on the other end of a cell conversation doesn't always
understand the environment of the cell phone user. This can more often lead to extremely personal or emotional conversations than would be likely in a face-to-face meeting in such a public setting as a crowded rail car."
I disagree with the rest of your points, but I have to agree with this one to some extent. I have a cellphone, and I can think of a number of times when the party on the other end said something that I couldn't respond to properly because I was in public. Or, worse, presumed that I was speaking quietly because I was nervous or had something to hide when all I was trying to do was keep from disturbing other people -- my phone voice is significantly quieter than my normal speaking voice BECAUSE I don't want to perpetuate the unfair stereotype that all cellphone users are loud.
On the other hand, I've heard some pretty loud emotional (positive and negative, but usually negative) live conversations on trains, too.
The party on the other end of a cell conversation doesn't always
understand the environment of the cell phone user. This can more often lead to extremely personal or emotional conversations than would be likely in a face-to-face meeting in such a public setting as a crowded rail car.
Then the cell phone user can say, "I'm on the train, there are people around, I can't really talk about that now."
I liked the older style, bulkier cellular phones better.
I don't know how people talk with those tiny things.
Perhaps using a headset would improve perfomance on modern cellphones.
New cell phone's are Digital. The old JUNK as a REDBIRD subway car cell phone's are analog. The small one's have those plip up earset.
SO YOU BETTER KEEP UP WITH THE GOOD TIMES OVER HERE!!!
Dominick Bermudez.
On some phones, the flip is just a cover, that also acts as a switch to pick up the phone or hang it up. The microphone is still on the phone unit.
STORY about G train riders protesting service cuts.
Peace,
ANDEE
We'll see what happens.
Wow. I never realized that so many people rode the G from Brooklyn Stations to QB stations. Maybe they could help out the situation by making one of the trains that goes by 21st-Ely/Court Square local, so the passangers can transfer more easily. But I agree they shouldn't cut back on frequencies.
That is what they're doing. 23 St-Ely will be served by the E and V. The F will be going by the 63rd St tunnel/connector. I think I'm one of the only ones here who thinks that's a good idea--and not just for that reason.
:-) Andrew
It is a good idea. But they should run the G to QP whenever headway on the QB line are long enough to allow Qs to be turned at QP. Running the Qs to Contnental during rush hours will have to wait on the new rolling stock. Obviously, they could run Qs to Continental off hours; but there probably isn't enough demand for local service to justify it off hours, along with the V.
The sad thing is the TA has been scheming for over 10 years to
do this, but I guess no one took it seriously until the service
plan was announced. The whole purpose of that block-long
free transfer at Ely Ave was to make this very service plan
possible down the road.
Personally, I think the the TA as usual is treating a problem
(a line with low ridership) as something to be exterminated rather
than an opportunity. Look at the destination surveys. How many
riders in Queens work in downtown Brooklyn, or likewise Brooklyn
residents who work in Long Island City? There's a great, under-
utilized alternative to the crowded Manhattan route. It's also
faster. But most commuters have this vague fear of the G line
"where exactly does that go?" "isn't that a bad neighborhood?"
"where would I transfer if I took it?" If the TA did a little
marketing, it could persuade a lot more people to use the line.
I aggree. I also think they should be pushing the BMT Eastern Division lines a little more. To some degree, the J could take a little of the heat off of Queens Blvd.
I suspect it's only a matter of time before they put another transfer at Fulton-Lafeyette between the G and C, then cut back the G even further.
:-) Andrew
If they do build a Fulton-Lafayette transfer, they should connect it to the Panama Canal (Atlantic-Pacific) complex.
This however, would still leave the F train relatively isolated in Brooklyn, and it wouldn't even connect to the G at all!
Connection between the F and the 6th Avenue lines is useless, a Lawrence-Jay transfer (in the capital plan) would solve the connection with the N problem and the 2/3 are already available at 14th (use the A or C instead for downtown). But what about the 4 and 5?
I guess one can use the 6, whose uptown platform would be connected to B'way-Laf (in the capital plan too) and that makes all 4/5 stops available, except in the Bronx, which isn't a big destination for Brooklynites anyway.
"Connection between the F and the 6th Avenue lines is useless, a Lawrence-Jay transfer (in the capital plan) would solve the connection with the N problem and the 2/3 are already available at 14th (use the A or C instead for downtown). But what about the 4 and 5?"
That connection your talking about (if built) will be more beneficial to A, C, N & R riders than the F line. The F has multiple connections with the N and R lines. Even at 4th Street which is very popular.
The A & C and 1,2,3,9 lines are the lines hard to connect to, not the F. Actually. The F is probably the best situated line in the system.
The MTA did not make the 4,5, and 6 (Green) and the N,Q, and R (yellow) out of a mistake. They are cousins by how they interwine from Manhattan to Brooklyn. Connections can be made with these two routes at 59th Street all the way to Atlantic Avenue. The only difference is that, the the green line is a faster alternative to the yellow line (for indiv. traveling to lower Man). But the yellow line brings the eastside to the westside - giving passengers more flexibility in the system.
Same thing with the 1,2,3,9 (Red) and A,C,E (blue) Lines. The blue and red interwine with each other from upper manhattan to lower Manhattan. After that, the blue line gets lost somewhere (probably the worse line to connect to at that point from the southern division (ANY DIVISION!)). The blue route like the Green route is a faster alternative to the red route. However, the red route is more established than the Blue line which explains why it's more popular amongst passengers.
Opposites attract.
N Broadway Line
South of the 125th-59th express run on the A, the 2/3 is faster than the A.
"South of the 125th-59th express run on the A, the 2/3 is faster than the A."
Who know's why?
N Broadway Line
Fewer stops is, presumably, the primary reason. From 59th to Chambers, the A has six stops: 42nd, 34th, 14th, W4, Canal, and Chambers. From 72nd to Park Place (that's a longer distance), the 2/3 has five stops: 42nd, 34th, 14th, Chambers, and Park Place. The 2/3 also runs in a more direct path.
Signals are probably a secondary reason. The 2/3 flies. The A never gets a chance to fly; it never skips more than one station at a time.
--That connection your talking about (if built) will be more beneficial to A, C, N & R riders than the F line. The F has multiple connections with the N and R lines. Even
at 4th Street which is very popular.--
What connection are you referring to between the "F" and "N"/"R" at 4th Street? Should I assume you meant West 4th Street???
"What connection are you referring to between the "F" and "N"/"R" at 4th Street? Should I assume you meant West 4th Street???"
4th Street in Brooklyn on the F line. Connections are made with the M/N and R lines.
N Broadway Line
Fourth Avenue and Ninth Street.
My mistake. YES! Thanks.
N Bwy
"I also think they should be pushing the BMT Eastern Division lines a little more. To some degree, the J could take a little of the heat off of Queens Blvd."
I think they should push the BMT Eastern Division as well. However, before they do that, they have to improve the service greatly.
First thing they need to do is provide a special rush hours express service. Not the skip stop crap they have presently, but something on the middle track (or what use to be the middle track).
Create a special express route from crescent street to Broadway Express New York. Once built, these trains should take priority over any local train crossing it because this track will head straight along Jamaica Avenue instead of turning on fulton Street.
Express service should continue to Mrytle Avenue, and than Essex Street, (skipping Marcy Street). This new express line should also take priority over the M to Metropolitan which also crosses it's track.
If everything goes right: This line will alleviate overcrowding primarily on the E line. But will also help keep J passengers off the A line as well.
If the TA really wants to improve transporation on the Queens corridor, IMPROVE THE JAMAICA LINE!
N Support of the J JAMAICA LINE
What comes first the chicken or the egg? I am not a spokesman for the TA, but I know their mindset: first ridership, then we put on extra service!
OH! I FORGOT SOMETHING. CREATE A NEW STATION AT WOODHAVEN BLVD. THIS IS A MUST FOR THE PLAN TO WORK!
N Broadway Line
I don't follow you, on what line?
Arti
The Jamaica Avenue J Line. The stops would be Sutphin Blvd, Woodhaven Blvd and POW! Eastern Parkway (middle track built b/t Sutphin Blvd and Eastern Parkway), then Essex Street.
N Broadway Line
You're forgetting Myrtle and Marcy Ave. You cannot run an express nonstop through all these neighborhoods. They'll scream bloody murder.
Mrytle but not marcy. plus, they will already be 2 trains serving those stations.
N Bwy
Marcy Ave. is a heavily used bus/train x-fer which deserves to be an express stop.
Isn't there one already?
Arti
An interesting thought about the perception of the G line - from over here in England I thought it went through some bad areas - however - on travelling on it (admittedly at 0900 hrs) - I found it to be OK and the stations and trains in good order - so maybe it could do with a bit of local and city marketing - "Take the G ....the quickest way to Queens" or whatever !!!!
It feels like it there only to feed into adjacent lines and for local trips - could they up the service frequency on the shortened line ?
Faster? hmmm. The time that I rode it, it wasn't fast at all. Maybe at the time they was doing some work, but I was really disappointed.
If they can fit a ten minute train in the schedule, than I say keep it. But if it confuses more than it benefits, I say keep it at Court Street.
N Broadway Line
"under utilized alternative to the crowded Manhattan route". The same holds true to the overcrowding on the E. Those WTC passengers insist on the E, but could easily have a less crowded ride on the J/Z. Lots of them ride to Supthin Blvd. and change for the J train going back toward Manhattan anyway. Part of this could be "the bad neighborhood" thing as well.
Canal and Chambers are the only 2 Manhattan stations that the E and J/Z have reasonably in common. The J/Z is marginally quicker for about 1/2 hour during the rush hour for these two stations. However, most of the people packed into the E at Queens Plaza desire to go to points north.
Back in the mid 1960's the TA issued a report suggesting that 3rd tracking the Jamaica Ave El and running this service north via Chrystie St would have a major impact on the E/F crowding. The major stop was 34/6 at that time, as the real estate boom had not yet extened into the 50's and the garment center was the City's largest employer.
Needless to say, the TA did not add the 3rd track to the Jamaica Ave line and ran the Chrystie St service as a local, when it came online.
Of course, that is the TA mindset. Meet the customer half way and blame him, when he responds in kind.
[Back in the mid 1960's the TA issued a report suggesting that 3rd tracking the Jamaica Ave El and running this service north via Chrystie St would have a major impact on the E/F crowding. The major stop was 34/6 at that time, as the real estate boom had not yet extened into the 50's and the garment center was the City's largest employer. ]
Very interesting, and definitely less expensive than adding a superexpress track on QB. Probably would have some merit running it express b/w EP and Myrtle.
Arti
"Very interesting, and definitely less expensive than adding a superexpress track on QB."
Yes, and might be worth doing. Of course, demographics have changed and there is more reason today for additional northern/central Queens express service than there was in the 1960's, so one does not replace the other.
The no build, ENY to Marcy option would require no captital expenses. MTA should try it, hardly would cost more than another study. Kind of dreaming back the days whenb they were more creative, experimenting with NX and et al.
Arti
Probably would have some merit running it express b/w EP and Myrtle.
You would need a return of the Bway-Bklyn Short Line for local service. The MTA has forseen this as a distinct possibility and is busily removing the turn around tracks at Atlantic Ave and Canal St.
For THIS, you extend the "V" to Canarsie via B'way and the flyover, instead of terminating at 2nd Avenue! That should be a no-brainer.
wayne
1) Insufficient equipment to do that
2) No 600' trains on the Eastern Divison
3) No R46's on the Eastern Division.
I've taken that route (J/Z) to lower Manhattan. Unless the E
is really messed up, it is MUCH slower to the same destinations.
Three reasons:
Barely
Moving
Trains
If the J were to run express from Eastern Pkwy and if some
of those timers were picked up, the service would be competitive.
If the middle track were cut through further north, it would
be a bit faster than the E. But, we know that'll never happen.
I looked up the official running times on the MTA site before making the post.
For morning rush hours:
The E: frequency 4-6 minutes; lv Jamaica Ctr 0927 Arr WTC 1014
Total time 2 min wait + 47 min travel = 49 min.
The J/Z: frequency 5 minutes; lv Jamaica Ctr 0812 Arr Chambers 0856
Total time 2.5 min wait + 44 min travel = 46.5 min.
I would not be surprised, if somebody were to tell me that these official published schedules are inacurate. :-)
It's been more than 40 years, since I've taken this route regularly. At that time the #15 ran express from EP, however, the frequency was worse because #14 locals alternated with #15 expresses on Jamaica Ave. The biggest delay at that time was getting into Chambers St. The Culver Exp would tie things up moving southbound through the Nassau St loop.
The mid 1960's plan made it very clear that 3rd tracking the El all the way to 168th was necessary. Otherwise, it could not compete with the E/F and would not draw away any passengers.
The J/Z are never more frequent than 6 minutes, and that is slowly creaping toward 7. They are only 7 Z trains over a 70 minute period. Ridership is dropping. This summer, the J/Z and M will each lose a trainset to the Southern Division.
In the old days, the #14 locals were usually 5 cars. Nowadays, less than 50% of the ridership is east of Eastern Parkway. They could get rid of skip-stop, make the J Jamaica Express, make Z Broadway Local originating at Eatsern Parkway, but that would make for underutilized J's, and overcrowded Z's.
For the last time:
Ridership on the J/Z is NOT declining. It is at or above the level it was prior to the Willy B closure of 1999. The myth of permanently lost ridership during the closure is used far too often to justify cutting service on these lines.
Well, that is what I heard 2nd or 3rd hand ultimately from Steve Dobrow, that J and M was dropping as much as L was increasing, due to population shifts.
Yes!!!! The trains are more crowded now than they were years ago. 6 minutes between trains? Try more like 10 during rush hr!!!! I work in Jersey so i have a long commute and when i lived on the L train it took me somtimes less than an hr to get home, now on the J it takes an hr and a half, sometimes more and i only live bout 10 minutes away from where i use to live. Dont tell me to take the L and transfer to the J and Bway junction cuz it doesnt work! I end up waiting the extra time for the J i would have been on anyways!!!! Service is ridiculous!!!!!! Its a shame cuz i love the Elevated train ride but the service is what sucks!!!
Could the crowding be because both service and ridership have dropped -- Which came first is a great chicken/egg issue -- but service has dropped more than ridership?
Ridership has not dropped, that's the point i've been trying to make. The J and Z hasn't had it's service cut extensively over the past 4 years anyway.
I cannot speak of ridership on the M, as I never ride it anymore.
>>I cannot speak of ridership on the M, as I never ride it anymore.<<
I can.
M trains get a good deal of rush hour service when they're heading to S. Bklyn. Aside from that, they're pretty barren.
Note: A lot of people take the A to B'way-East NY and transfer to the J/Z. Nobody from east of that stop heading to Manhattan takes the J all the way to manhattan (too slow they say).
You're dead wrong about people using the J to get into Manhattan. If you ever stood on the platform at Eastern Parkway during the AM rush, you'd notice the trains quite full as they leave, and just as many people getting on the train as getting off to x-fer to the A. The A may be faster, but it requires a long walking transfer to overcrowded trains.
The J's slowness is concentrated east of Eastern Parkway. Except for the area around Myrtle Ave, the ride past this point is pretty quick, or as quick as possible given the configuration of the line.
>>You're dead wrong about people using the J to get into Manhattan.<<
Another one!
Why is it everyone here ignores what I say?
I know people who ride the J east of B'way ENY. I know someone who rode the A train everyday from Far Rockaway to Nostrand. The J riders said, (quotes): "The J is too slow. The A is much faster" The A rider said (quote): "Mad people get on at Broadway [East New York]"
Please, don't tell me I'm dead wrong. Please.
A lot of people do get on at Bway East NY, coming from the J and L. However, many people get on the J/Z at Eastern Parkway from the A and L as well. The assertion that most of the J riders who use the line east of Eastern Parkway us the train as a "shuttle" to get to the A is completely false. I've ridden this line every day for 16 years.
3 of every 4 people who are on the J train when it leaves Alabama Ave. are still on it when it pulls into Chauncey St.
I never said 'Most' of J riders use the J as a shuttle. I said a lot of them do. Re-read my initial post. EVERYBODY: READ!!!!
A distinct minority is the only accurate way to describe them.
>>A distinct minority is the only accurate way to describe them.<<
That's not true.
Not being a regular J rider, I don't know how much weight my comment will have. But when I do ride the J line, this line does appear to empty out at Broadway Eastern Parkway (connection to the A/L).
I disagree with your assertions about the J, Chris. It's still pretty slow after the work has been done on the bridge. That's a shame, because, I thought the purpose of the work was to speed things up over the bridge. Unfortunately, service seems to be the same as usual. SLOOOOOOWWWWW.
There's no reason for this line to be as slow as it is. Actually, as straight as it is, it should be faster than all the other trains leading to Manhattan.
" 3 of every 4 people who are on the J train when it leaves Alabama Ave. are still on it when it pulls into Chauncey St."
Who ever didn't get off at Broadway Eastern Parkway, will most likely get off at Essex Street. By that time, they are 2 passengers per car.
I don't know how it is during rush hours, but I assume the train empties out by the time it makes the connection with the F.
Earlier, I suggest several improvements for the J line. I did not get too many responses for it. It was like, people accepted the service as it currently is. At least you seem to support that notion. Chris.
Are you the same person who didn't like the idea of them building the Jamaica Center station? I know it was expensive, but it's an improvement over the slow Jamaica Avenue J line.
Why should people like myself be subjected to a bad service, because you like the J line? If they improve it (which doesn't appear likely), I'll be the first person saying I love the J line. It goes outside, and the view is wonderful. But I want more than a nice view if I want to get to work in the morning.
N Broadway Line
Rush hours citybound, the J/Z is fairly crowded to Chambers Street.
I wonder why not Fulton. One would expect the transfers to the A/C (for those who boarded west of Eastern Parkway) and the 2/3 to be fairly popular.
I know that when I need to get from the Upper West Side to Essex/Delancey, my preferred route is the 2/3 to Fulton for the J/M/Z, at least when trains aren't running at 24-minute headways for most of the day. The alternatives involve either two transfers or the long, creepy passageway between the 1/2/3/9 and the F at 14th -- and, for no particular reason, I just don't like the F.
>>and, for no particular reason, I just don't like the F.<<
Saying this in front of me is liable to get you shot.
I don't care if you don't like the F, but at least have a REASON!!!
Jtrainloco,
Why your so upset with David's comment? You should hate the F too, because, after Essex Street most of your passengers head for the F for a faster ride.
N Broadway Line
>>Why your so upset with David's comment? You should hate the F too, because, after Essex Street most of your passengers head for the F for a faster ride.<<
You wanna get shot too!?
First of all, I don't know what you're saying. I guess you are saying that after essex people head for the B/D/Q trains. If you said the above correctly, please explain.
Faster than the F:
To where?
First off, Nobody here seems to know what is the fastest ride from 34th to Coney Isle. I'm gonna get schedules and see (granted not the best, but hey, better than what everyone here is saying)
Second. If you mean that the B/D/Q is faster than the F from W4 to 34, you're right, but that's because it's the Dash.
Finally. The F is the Culver line train. If the Z suddenly got a case of iron fever and began running on the culver line too, I'd be protecting it from attack as well. Even the G falls into that 'sphere of culver'. Nobody just hates the culver for no reason. Not on my watch.
Huh? I'm not allowed to have my own irrational dislikes?
Okay, here are two: in general, I find the IND boring; and I find the R-46 a most unpleasant car.
(Culver has nothing to do with it. When my Q was rerouted to the Culver I had a most enjoyable time, although I would have preferred if it had run express.)
The majority of J riders usually x-fer to other lines in Manhattan, or work in the financial district. Fulton St. is probably the most heavily used stop, followed by Chambers, then Essex St.
While train traffic across the bridge is slower than a tunnel would allow, it's still not the 5-10 MPH crawl the J must travel at around the Crescent St. S-curve.
The only thing i'm trying to say is that a vast majority of J riders use the line to get into Manhattan, not merely to shuttle to a x-fer point at ENY.
Therin lies the problem: the J line is burdened with too many timers, thus slowing service to a crawl in many areas. Razing the older structure along Fulton and replacing it with a new one down Jamaica east of Cypress Hills, then adding an express track is the only viable solution. Of course, the dozens of permanent structures built between the 2 tracks along Jamaica Ave. within the last 15 years makes this almost impossible. Even a 2 track line down the full length of Jamaica Ave would speed things up noticeably.
All they need to do is build one track along jamaica avenue. This will be used for express service. The only problem with this configuation, is that, the express track would have to cross over the westbound local tracks twice. But since the local service would not be that often, it should not be much of a problem.
As always, if this plan is to work, it would have to have priority over the local track. Plus, those slow timers on the bridge would have to be remove as well.
Once all of this work is done, the MTA should advertise the improve service. They should tell people who normally transfer to the E/A to use the improve Jamaica express service. And show in their schedules that using the other services (E/A) would actually take longer to reach their destination than the improve Jamaica service.
N Broadway Line
Try getting people who live along Jamaica Ave. between Crescent St. and Alabama Ave. to agree to building this elevated structure with absolutley no stops along it to serve them.
Just beyond the bumper block at WTC, there is a Fulton St. exit. That is close to the Fulton St./Bway Nassau Station where they can pick up the J/Z. The 2 Canal Streets are much farther apart. The one for the E is on the West Side by the Holland Tunnel, and the one for the J/Z is by Chinatown. Maybe a Chrystie St/6th Ave connection is worth another try, but I'm not sure where a good place for the IND terminal would be. 168 St? The C is there. Queens IND? No room.
The 2 Canal Streets are much farther apart. The one for the E is on the West Side by the Holland Tunnel, and the one for the J/Z is by Chinatown.
They are only 1 block further apart at Canal St. The J/Z runs on Centre St. The E runs on 6th Ave at Canal and on Church St at WTC. It's only a short block between Church and 6th ave at Canal.
Maybe a Chrystie St/6th Ave connection is worth another try,..
No, you first need to build the express track from Sutphin, otherwise the midtown service will take too long to draw traffic off the E/F.
but I'm not sure where a good place for the IND terminal would be.
The lack of decent turn around facilities for short lines is big problem.
Queens IND? No room.
Probably the best place for this service would be at Queens Plaza. The service would go through the 53rd St tunnel and turn around at QP. There will be fewer trains in 53rd St as a result of hijacking the F to 63rd St. Lex/53rd will definitely need more trains.
"Of course, that is the TA mindset. Meet the customer half way and blame him, when he responds in kind."
It's our mindset. For eveyone who thinks a third track on the Jamaica El is a great idea, and posts it here (and I think it's a nice idea) there's two or three others who storm into a politician's office and say "over my dead body are you going to do that." I won't even address the issue of whether or not that reflects the community view. I haven't researched it, so I don't know.
The MTA could be God's gift to man, though, and have trouble getting past that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A third track would only be good if they build a separate track from cypress hills to Broadway Eastern Pkwy and a station at Woodhaven Blvd.
N Broadway Line
There isn't enough room at Woodhaven Blvd. to build a new express station. A more logical place would be at Crescent/Jamaica, just east of the curve.
That's a big problem then. How can they solve it? Can they move the station back so they is room?
N Bwy
Buildings would have to be demolished to provide enough width for 2 island platforms here.
"More than 100 outraged G train riders and community activists converged in Greenpoint yesterday to denounce a state plan to cut the line in half — and commend the governor for delaying the final vote."
This makes it sound as though half of the stations served by the G will see no service.
Of course, that's not the plan.
Here's what's going to happen (assuming the plan goes through):
Anyone who connects from the G to the Manhattan lines at Queens Plaza will have to shift to Court Square. There will be no (direct) access to the 60th Street line, only to 53rd. The plan also calls for a new transfer to the 7.
Anyone who stays on the G further north (east) in Queens will have to transfer to the E (express) or V (local) at Court Square.
That's it. Every other G rider will be unaffected. Service south of Court Square will remain as is. Transfers to the L, A/C, and F (n Brooklyn) will remain in place.
The hyperbole is getting on my nerves.
Enough already. X-fer's are available at Court Sq. for trains to Manhattan. No extra fare required! Just follow the signs! Trust us, the trains will be there!
Never in my life has the idea of community input on transit service issues looked so ridiculous.
It would be nice if they could combine two Broadway El stations to hover over the G Broadway station.
STORY about R-142 problems>
Peace,
ANDEE
Here also
Well, this means the papers and TV will be keeping a closer eye on how fast the cars get into service now, though the pressure won't really kick in unless the delays continue into the summer and get closer to the mayoral primary election (bashing the MTA is always a good campaign issue).
But better the MTA keep refusing to accept faulty cars than be stuck with another R-46 debacle like in the late 1970s.
thats good to hear while most of the reasons they were put out of service was out dated. automated announcements were perfected since 2000. the signs were malfunctioning and not telling anything at times. kawasaki R-142a 7341-50 experienced that yesterday running downtown. and to say these problems are crippling is overated
Those problems aren't crippling. The braking and door problems are.
They were pulled February 1st? How about mid December? Or has it been even longer?
Faulty doors, signs, announcements? How about propulsion and braking system problems.
They are returning to service though.
They couldn't have been pulled in mid-December,I caught a R-142 a week before X-mas on the 2 line heading 241-bound.Also looks like one more summer for the Redbirds.
From what I've been reading on this board, ALL of them were never pulled from service. Probably just 80-90%. The media does exaggerate a few things.
From what I've been reading on this board, ALL of them were never pulled from service. Probably just 80-90%. The media does exaggerate a few things.
Note: Forgot my QCPS again.
>>> Note: Forgot my QCPS again. <<<
If you forget it, let it go. Double posts of the same message are more annoying.
Tom
STORYabout dead person discovered on D train.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> STORYabout dead person discovered on D train. <<<
The story mentions a dead man found on the #1 train in 1999. It is hard to believe that only two people who have died of natural causes have been discovered on subways in two years.
Tom
What was somewhat unusual is that these 2 people did not fall over. Other customers assumed that they were sleeping or homeless and just let them be. There was no indication that they were dead or for how long.
Your findings are very interesting about the dead people who were riding the subway. It is remarkable that other straphangers thought that they were simply sleeping on the train. The article in the Daily News mentions that the dead person on the "D" train was homeless. Was the dead person who was found on the No. 1 train in 1999 also homeless?
BMTJeff
D train equals the Brighton Beach; #1 train equals the old Brighton Beach. People go on that train to die. What does that tell you Brighton guys out there? It's a deadass train, that's what. They don't to die on the Sea Beach because my train speaks for life. Try that one on for size my Brighton pals.
I have to say that this is the stupidest post that you have ever made.
It is kind of silly at that, but don't get your palotas in an uproar because it was all done in fun. Lighten up Pork and have a nice slice of bacon.
Hey Fred, at least they're able to identify the bodies on the Brighton Line as HUMAN.
BMTman
But dead anyway. What? You're not going to pull a Pork and say it's the dumbest post I've ever written? Well, it was meant in a tongue and cheek manner in order to smoke out my Brighton buddies for a little fun.
No problemo, I got the joke.
I just thought you'd might like to know that eight bodies were found on the Sea Beach Line -- they were identified as hippos that couldn't move because of motor trouble. HA HA HA!
;-)
BMTman
OK Doug, you got your Brighton Beach dig in. We're even. And tell Pork that was the whole purpose of my seemingly silly exercise, to get the Brighton boys to react to my post.
Have there been any other people found dead on the Brighton Line trains in the past?
BMTJeff
Hell Jeff, I don't know. It does seem ironic they go there to expire.
If i recall correctly, the one on the #1 in 1999 wasn't homeless but had a heart attack. If he had fallen to the ground, perhaps more people would take notice.
I once saw a hispanic man sleeping on his side on a #7 from Times Sq last year. His face was too purplish that I think he was dead (and he couldn't be awakened either by C/R). I didn't find any news reports on this guy however.
I guess that that apparent dead man on the #7 train wasn't a newsworthy item at the time.
BMTJeff
no text
An article in Thursday's Bergen Record states that the work needed (passing sidings) to allow off-peak and reverse peak trains on NJT's Pascack Valley Line will not be done in time for the previously forecast 2002 opening. Explanations stretch credibility.
It's hard to believe that there aren't 30 experienced track and signal construction workers available to work on the project.
Half the explanation is NIMBY. NIMBY is a synonym for community cancer. What's so incredulous about that?
I've heard it's an argument between NJT and MNR over cost allocation.
STORY about NJ Transits plans to build ferry terminal in NJ.
Peace,
ANDEE
More information was given in yesterday's Star-Ledger, which was still available online as of Friday morning.
Since I was born into the post-streetcar era and I have never actually been around a real streetcar system (except for a brief time in Toronto when I was 11 - we took a ride on one of them too, and Boston on the B green line branch, although technically it runs on its own ROW in the median of the road), I just have a couple of questions.
Since streetcars obviously cannot go around road obstacals or be detoured onto alternate streets like buses, how are situations such as disabled cars (automobiles) dealt with, esp when traffic starts piling up? Or double-parked cars or cars waiting to pick somebody up?
I would imagine these could seriously delay and even cripple trolley service.
Thanks.
>>> how are situations such as disabled cars (automobiles) dealt with, esp when traffic starts piling up? Or double-parked cars or cars waiting to pick somebody up? <<<
Back in the heyday of the streetcars, blocked tracks caused a great deal of clanging of the streetcar's bell, some hand and arm waving and a lot of yelling. If necessary bystanders and passengers would use muscle to clear the offending vehicle from the tracks. Now I assume the operator radios to his control point and a tow truck is sent to move the vehicle at the owner's expense.
Tom
Correct especially in San Francisco, first a cop is called, and the parking ticket double parked is double, and the tow truck is called and car is towed if a break down it is pushed off the ROW
These sorts of problems can certainly tie up a streetcar line and play havoc with service. These days if something like that happens you can expect to hear a lot of bell ringing from the streetcar. If the car or whatever blocking the streetcar tracks doesn't move or isn't moved out of the way supervisors are called out to deal with the situation and from there tow trucks and the police, if necessary, can be called.
Also, in large cities, a "real" streetcar system would have plenty of loops and connections to tracks on other streets so that streetcars can either be diverted from their normal routing over other tracks in order to get around an obsticle and then pick up their normal route again at a later point. If that option isn't available, loops (either on street where streetcars travel around a circular path making use of several streets to turn around, or actual turn around loops themselves) can be used to short turn streetcars so that most of the line on either side of the obsticle still has service.
In a worst case scenario buses are called out to replace the streetcar service until the problem is fixed.
Hope this helps...
-Robert King
I've seen photos in some book on Chicago's streetcars of "hose jumpers" (pieces placed on the tracks to allow the streetcars to pass over firemen's hoses, carried on fire trucks), and also of a portable crossover which could be used for cars to go to the other tracks to wrong-rail around a problem or construction site.
-- Ed Sachs
One technique that I have seen used (and participated in myself about five years ago while on a fan trip in Philadelphia) is to "bounce" the vehicle off the tracks. Depending on the size of the vehicle, of course, and how far it needs to be moved, this is a faster alternative than calling a tow truck. Basically this involves having several people bounce the car up and down on its suspension; once enough "spring" has been achieved a couple of other people can push it to one side while the bouncers keep the car bouncing up and down. On the Philadelphia fan trip in question (the vast majority of which was over out-of-service trackage) we had eight vehicles obstructing the track; two were moved by their owners (one of those a preacher who the motorman interrupted in mid-sermon), one was dragged out of the way by a SEPTA service vehicle, and five were bounced. The bounced vehicles ranged in size from a small Ford to a Lincoln Continental, so the technique works even for a large car. The vehicle that SEPTA dragged out of the way was a T-Bird that was missing both front wheels, so it would have been a bit more difficult to bounce.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One on of our New Year's Eve fantrips that we used to run on PTC/SEPTA, we covered every piece of trackage that could be used. One one trip, while covering the "Over the Top" trackage that connects the Girard Avenue tracks with the subway-surface diversion tracks. While on 40th street we encounterd a medium-sized box van blocking the track at one of the curves. Since there was no way to find the driver at 4:00 AM, we found the truck's door unlocked. So, using the car's drawbar as a push pole, one of us got behind the wheel and used the streetcar to push the truck around the next corner, along side of a fire hydrant. As we approached Market Street we spotted a cop. Being good citizens we advised the officer of where truck was. Hopefully the cop investigated and left the truck's driver a New Year's present.
On a fan trip in Philly several years ago, we encountered a vehicle blocking a corner turn at 11th & Bainbridge. We were using (3) different trolleys, Peter Witt #8534 , a PCC , and a K-car LRV.
Our car, the PCC, cleared the corner. When the Peter Witt came up, it was wider, and we ended up with 12 people lifting the car up on the
sidewalk. This was after repeated tries and banging on doors trying to find the driver. When you have tracks in sections of town that are
only used on rare occasions, drivers take liberties as to where they park! Next time we'll use the bounce method.
Chuck Greene
Would you believe it's Roger Staubach? Gee, no politics here.
New Day For Two N.Y.C. Landmarks
Article about Penn Station in new issue of Trains Magazine
I won't be satisfied until the station is rebuilt to its 1911 glory and GCT is destroyed to make way for MSG V.
[I won't be satisfied until the station is rebuilt to its 1911 glory]
Like this:
Yes! Well, the horse carts are optional, but the trolley tracks and that vintage automobile would be nice.
Is this the 7th or 8th Avenue end? What's that thing across from the station at the bottom of the picture?
Hmmm...when was this photo taken, exactly? Could it be......the 7th Avenue Subway contruction?
It looks like the 7th ave. side.
Peace,
ANDEE
I won't be satisfied until the station is rebuilt to its 1911 glory and GCT is destroyed to make way for MSG V.
You have a better chance to live to a million years old than see GCT destroyed !!!!
Grand Central is a National Heritage Site, it can not be taken down and rebuilt into something else, only renovated. Which was just done
It MUST be destroyed, its the only fair thing to do! The people north of the city deserve their 40 years of commuting in a basement.
The GCT tracks aren't under the terminal, they are under the MetLife Building, and the buildings along Park Avenue north of the station.
That's why the seemingly surface streets in the area have expansion joints.
[I won't be satisfied until the station is rebuilt to its 1911 glory and GCT is destroyed to make way for MSG V.]
Seriously, MSG wants to move further west onto the space over the yards. It seems to me that instead of building this stopgap they should trade them the yard space for the Penn Station space and rebuild the real Penn Station, starting with the concourse, which is the functional part and wouldn't cost much more to build than Farley (it's mostly glass and metal). The result would be much more functional -- it would link the commuter RR's, Amtrak, and the subways -- and elegant.
[The result would be much more functional -- it would link the commuter RR's, Amtrak, and the subways -- and elegant. ]
And more close to City transit.
Arti
Why not do both?
Farley is funded and will provide a grand entry and new space, in a building built by the Penn's architects, for long distance travellers. When MSG leaves their site, what follows for the commuter side should find as many echos of old Penn Station as possible.
The Municipal Arts Society et al. should get on the case as soon as possible. It must be a given that MSG's current site needs special treatment before it is just sold off to some developer for a 2 million square foot blob.
[Why not do both?
Farley is funded and will provide a grand entry and new space, in a building built by the Penn's architects, for long distance travellers. When MSG leaves their site, what follows for the commuter side should find as many echos of old Penn Station as possible.
The Municipal Arts Society et al. should get on the case as soon as possible. It must be a given that MSG's current site needs special treatment before it is just sold off to some developer for a 2 million square foot blob.]
That's a good idea, though that $1 billion would have gone a long way towards rebuilding the concourse. Question is, how to get their attention . . . and overcome the "station fatigue" that will inevitably set in once Farley is under way (what, you want to build *another* station?)?
I wonder of the new Penn Station will feature a branch of Dr. Müeller's Frankfort Airport Emporium? :-)
Staubach has gotten into real estate development in a big way in the past 20 years, though he still can't sell off the abandoned Texas Instruments plant in Bush's hometown of Midland.
Overall, probably a good political move by the Pennsylvania Station Redevelopment Corp., since it figures to grease the skids for the federal $$$ over certain other cutbacks. And it's also probably a good thing for Amtrak in the near future, since the idea of giving a Bush buddy a lot of cash to develop a new station for a rail system that's being shut down would be a big embarrassment for the administration.
Anyway, it's been 21 1/2 years since any Democrat got mad at Roger Satubach in Congress, so if nothing else, the move will provide some material for Speical Orders on C-Span.
Last night at about 8:15 PM I was riding an uptown R train past Times Square. I was very surprised to see a downtown Q train passing by. Obviously it came from 63rd, and no doubt it was heading for the Montague Tunnel.
:-) Andrew
Get used to it - in August, it'll have an extended stay :)
--Mark
In fact, the train was crying "Don't make me go back to Sixth! I hate it there."
:) Andrew
Actually it said:
Ha! while those Sea beach fools have run local on broadway I've found a way to stay on the Manhattan bridge.
FOOOLS???????? YOU BETTER STOP!!!
N BROADWAY LINE
Have you talked to the Q train? I didn't think so! I have. It likes being on the Manny B, but it HATES the B and D. They're constantly reminding it that there were already two expresses before it showed up, and essentially making it feel like a stepchild. They never stop picking on the poor Q for its slant trains (I think they're jeolous.) The ever-unpretentious F just kind of ignores the whole scene. It dosen't really like to hang out with its orange sisters that much--it spends more time with its cousins the E and G and its spouse the R line. Anyway, the Q can't wait to go back to Broadway--the N and R treat it like royalty.
Am I the only one who keeps up with train gossip?
Hey! What are you looking at?
:-D Andrew
And the sad part is the D and Q used to get on pretty well when they only shared the Brighton line. But once the Q was forced to invade the D's home turf, there was bad karma between them. Now they can barely bear to be on the same line together. In fact, the D is on the verge of being temporarily kicked off the Brighton line. The Q needs some time alone.
Of course, no line is as lonely as the 7. Its own numbered siblings won't even talk to it, and all it has are its brief flirtations with the N.
I could swear people are staring. WHAT? WHAT?
:?D
What are you talking about. The D is the interloper on the Brighton Line, The Q was there when the D ran on the Culver Line, yes it feels different on the 6th Ave, and is glad to be back on Broadway, but the Q is the grandpa on the Brighton, before it was the 1. The D was always the D
That's telling it as it is, Bob. Then how come you like the D so much?
When I mentioned the D's "home turf", I meant Sixth Ave, which the Q was forced to invade. Now The Q is on the verge of kicking the D off its home turf, the Brighton line.
:-D Andrew
The L gets pretty lonely, too.
The Q also knows it can and does outrun any D train on the Brighton stretch. It always gets the last laugh. It looks over to those R-68s and says, "So long, screwy! See you in St. Louis!":-)
Likely not...the railcar plant there has been gone since the R44's made St. Louis car Co. go bust. Haha..
I was quoting Bugs Bunny. He used to say that often, either to Yosemite Sam or Elmer Fudd.
Knowing the Q, it probably also says "So long, sucker!" to those D trains.:-)
I keep up with train gossip. Look:
The Q really likes it on 6th av, cuz it doesn't have to run local on the slow broadway line. You must have been talking to some other train line that lied to you. Me'an the Q are "mad chill" with each other. I hooked up the Q with the R-40's. Don't get me wrong, the Q likes it much better on broadway. But it is happy to stay on Manhattan Bridge. (Can't do this ever again after V is instituted).
And, the Q and N trains Have mad 'beef' with each other. This stems from that NX train, Which angered Q trains. To think! running on it's home turf! the nerve. But, that's another story, one too long to tell here. (if your good, we'll eat s'mores and i'll tell it)
And, Who told you that the F and R are spouces? They're siblings! The G is the F's spouse. That's why they hook up in Bklyn AND Queens. They are expecting a child, the V, which is kicking the G out. (ever noticed how offspring always seem to get one up on their parents).
|;-)
How many of you are old enough to remember riding the Brooklyn-Broadway El back in 1979 and seeing a train of Low-Vs out on a fantrip. I was only fourteen at the time but it seems like it was yesterday. Fortunatley I got a photograph of it just before it passed. What a thrill!
Eric Dale Smith
I remember getting on a set of Low -V's on the Grand Central Shuttle when they had the 90th anniversary of the subway .Made me the 3rd generation of my family to ride a Low V.
Lucky you! I missed that event by one week. There was a poster about it at the Times Square end of the shuttle, IIRC, and I blew a fuse knowing I wouldn't be on hand. You can bet I will be on hand for the 100th anniversary on 10/27/04.
Guess there are some benefits to being older. [would give my eye teeth NOT to get older tho] I rode the High V's until I was l5 [last of them l958]and the Low V's until almost 21; they took my mom to school and to work for years; the High-V's were new when my grandfather was a child and the Low-V's were new when he went out to work and got married! Didn't know great-grandparents but "grossemutter" lived until I was about 6 so guess she did some mileage on them too.She was "grandma" in English this time to my mom.I hope you get the chance to ride them on the mainlines during the centennial. THAT was railroading, not a world full of speed restrictions, and those old trains could run.
>>> would give my eye teeth NOT to get older tho <<<
Be careful what you wish for Ed. I do not want to join my friends who have stopped growing older.
Tom
A few weeks ago, I was transferring to the uptown Broadway Line at Canal Street. I heard an announcement: "Ladies and gentlemen, there is an uptown Q train at City Hall, 1 station away."
I saw the train of R40 slants, wearing the orange Q signs. I got on at the last car and rode it to 14th Street, where I got a picture of it. (It's in Transit Pictures 18 if you want to see it.)
I guess it went straight up the express track north of 34th Street since it would be pointless to switch it to the local track because it needs to be on the exp tk at 57 Street in order to go to Queensbridge.
Q trains running express on Broadway do indeed stay on the express track all the way to 57th St. Typcially, express trains continuing onto Queensboro Plaza or Astoria or Forest Hills would switch over to the local track between 34th St. and Times Square and stop at 49th St. OTOH when the N was extended to Continental Ave. in the 70s, it stayed on the express track, skipping 49th St., and switched over just before 57th St. I rode on one such train back then.
East Side Access' final EIS has arrived! I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but this means we are closer to the start of construction, hopefully (assuming the No Build alternative is not chosen).
Since I got it today from MTA's consultant, I assume there will be a relatively generous public comment timetable. The Queens and Manhattan borough presidents have copies, as should the public libraries. I doubt it's on the website yet - but I haven't looked in the last couple of days.
I urge you guys to take a look at it, and write to the designated MTA or other govt. official as specified. Even if you hate it and prefer "No Build." This is your chance to participate and be counted - don't ignore it
Please, where is it?!
Arti
Well, the skeletal remains of the old Atlantic Tower are no more. The platform is completely leveled and there is almost no idication that there ever was a structure at the southern end of the station.
Hope all you guys got your shots in early!
BMTman
What a shame! One day I hope New York wakes up and develops the sense to preserve things like this. After all, they are part of our heritage and as such should be preserved.
Eric Dale Smith
Oops! Looks like I'll have to do some railfanning down there..... I'd like to see how they're progressing with the work.
-Stef
According to KYW1060.com, the strike will be held off due to intervention by Mayor Street. As long as Mayor Street is working to make a deal, the strike will not occur.
FULL STORY:
No SEPTA Strike...For Now
by KYW's Mike Dunn
SEPTA riders can breathe easy, at least for now. Mayor Street has decided to intervene in SEPTA's contract dispute, and the union in turn agreed to rule out any strike...while the Mayor is involved.
Union trustee Harry Lombardo met Mayor Street briefly at City Hall late in the day Thursday. Street offered to step into the contract dispute - something Lombardo had earlier requested - but with one condition: that the union hold off on any strike:
"The mayor asked me to give him some breathing room, and to give him some time, and I have agreed to do that."
The buses and subways will keep running for now, but Lombardo cautions that his no-strike pledge is in force only while the Mayor is working to get a deal:
"If he tells me that he doesn't need any more time because he can't be helpful, when he tells me that, that's when we'll have to start making a decision on what we will do."
For SEPTA's part, assistant General Manager Fran Egan is pleased Street is stepping in:
"If the mayor can be helpful in closing this deal, then we welcome it. We'd be very grateful, because we're ready for it."
So now, Street is expected to summon both sides separately as he wades into a contract dispute that remains hung up on rising health care and prescription drug costs.
I sure hope Mayor Street is successful. A transit strike is no joke. Just ask those who remember the NYC transit strike of 1966. My understanding is that it was pure hell. It made Mayor Lindsay look like a fool and sent volatile Union Boss Mike Quill so far over the edge that he had a heart attack and died.
Eric Dale Smith
That's good news. Hopefully they can hold off a strike until after Easter. I'm supposed to be taking the family to Philly during the spring break, so we can enjoy all the attractions of the City of Brotherly Love: The MFL, PATCO, suburban trolleys 100-102, SEPTA Regional- oh, yeah, I hear there's a lot of historical stuff and a nice science museum there, too.
We've got reservations at the Holiday Inn near Independence Hall, and there's absolutely no way I'm driving down there if there's a strike.
There's really no alternative place to take a three-day vacation. Boston's more than twice the distance, and you'd need more time than that. Well, Hartford is the same distance from NYC as Philly-
Dont' worry..in the event there is a strike, your hotel is just a few blocks from the regional rail station at Market East (11th street), so even though you'd miss out on riding the SEPTA trains, you could still see the other sites.
Mark
Yes, but wouldn't traffic be impossible in the event of a strike? Last time I was down, streets around City Hall were very congested midday on a Friday- and that's without a strike.
From all the different things I've read, it seems that a strike would shut down the subways and buses, but Regional Rail and the suburban buses and trolleys would run- is that correct? Or is it a different combination?
Either way, I'd rather be in Philadelphia (ouch!) under normal circumstances.
You are correct. I'm not really sure how the Frontier buses would run, though. Last time they were put out of service.
According to abcnews.com as seen on the monitors in PATH Stations there is now talk of the strike shutting down all of SEPTA including the regional rail. The story said TWU 234 is unhappy with the progress of negotiations
I don't think it's possible. For one thing, the suburban transit is covered by an entirely different union, and the Regional Rail is run by a union that would not permit it to strike.
I heard on the radio this morning that the TWU vowed not to strike before April Fools Day.
The two suburban unions' contracts are up on April 1 and 7, respectively. Lombardo vowed not to strike until April 1, but if things don't go his way by then, he promises to shut everything down with a region-wide transit strike. Now that would be interesting.
That explains what SubwayBuff heard.
That hotel is a few blocks from my apt. (actually, I'm looking at it right now from my window). I urge you to park your car in the hotel garage and leave it there as long as you're here. Strike or no strike, you can see most everything by WALKING, except for the Parkway Museum area and Rittenhouse Square, which you would reach anyway by the city-run purple Phlash tourist bus. It will continue to run during a strike (but it might be a little more crowded than usual).
I will be there for my spring break starting tonight and I will intend to ride the Paris Metro/RER and the S-tog as well as go on the train across the Orestund fixed link bridge into Malmo, Sweden.
Anyway, I will report back on this board on the Paris Metro and the Copenhagen S-tog.
Nick
Bring us back some REAL Carlsbergs and REAL Tuborgs ... after all, two fisted throttling does require beers, eh? (Kids, do NOT try this on the Sea Beach) ... you'll love it over yonder.
And while in Gay paree, remember that "Merde" means poo ... said often when things don't go quite as expected.
The Spanish and Italian words for that are almost the same, Spanish if nothing else usable in NYC. I'll refrain from spelling them out.
Copenhagen Central Station is a blast. Gorgeous building and if you stand on the suburban platforms trains come and go like the New York Subways. And the traction motor sounds of the old days are still audible if the man is interested. That was great listening. Paris metro likely great in its own way...too much underground but the stations are nice. I forget which line I was on but here are two lines that have a connection at "Stalingrad" and one is elevated for a brief time in that area and goes thru a center-city type area. Thought those interested might enjoy the scene. Can't see such in NYC.
Heh. Our first house upstate in Rosendale was nicknamed "Casa Mielda" for all the troubles it had. After sinking a lot of bucks into that genuine "Money pit," we sold it to a guy who just knocked it down and started over. The land has a fire house on it now.
Never did Europe, but did do Tokyo and environs. Some day, hopefully I'll get to the continent. Be a lot faster if there was a choochoo that went there though. :)
Bob Barr (GA-R) is threatening to not give federal funds to Metro until the name of the "National Airport" station is changed to "Reagan National Airport." It would cost WMATA $400,000 to change all the signs and maps throughout the system. Barr says that any proposal that has the government paying any part of the $400,000 is unacceptable. Jim Moran of Virginia asked what would happen if the airport in Barr's district was renamed "Jimmy Carter Airport"?
The Metro board, in order to rename a station, has to recieve a request from the juridstiction where the station is, in this case, Arlington County, VA.
Note that the only two people in Congress to complain are from Alaska and Georgia. Also, the name of the airport stop on the MARTA is simply "Airport." Why not rename that to be "Hartsfield International Airport"?
I don't think the renaming of that station will make much progress until a LOCAL government official makes a move.
I wonder if Barr is ticked off about something else and when that something else is resolved, he'll let this drop.
Bob Barr (GA-R) is threatening to not give federal funds to Metro until the name of the "National Airport" station is changed to
"Reagan National Airport." It would cost WMATA $400,000 to change all the signs and maps throughout the system. Barr says that any proposal that has the government paying any part of the $400,000 is unacceptable. Jim Moran of Virginia asked what would happen if the airport in Barr's district was renamed "Jimmy Carter Airport"?
Barr's well-known as one of the dimmer bulbs in Congress. Besides, I don't like the whole idea of naming the airport after a living person. Things like airports or other major public facilities should only be named after people who have kicked the bucket.
Reagan has been brain dead since he became Govonor of Calif in the 60s
>>>Reagan has been brain dead since he became Govonor of Calif in the 60s
LOL!
Of course, this is still a case of simple politics and trumpet blasting. Imagine if some relatively obscure Democrat in Congress wanted an airport named after Clinton or Carter - both still alive, both fairly controversial politically (though Clinton is much more so).
On a very different note, I was quite astonished, at first, when I saw his early advertisements for the Union Pacific Railroad, back when he was an actor (well, a Hollywood actor...his career in acting and in dramatic oratory certainly continued on after that :))
-cordially,
turnstiles
Get used to it. Ronald Reagan International Airport! It has a great ring to it and it is here to stay. Today DC, tomorrow Mount Rushmore.
>>>Get used to it. Ronald Reagan International Airport! It has a great ring to it and it is here to stay.
Fred: I knew you were blatently political and Republican - and now I just proved it too! Just kidding - well sort of. :)
Anyway, I will forever be comforted by the fact that the named individual probably cannot remember that the airport is named after him! :)
Also, need I remind you that the U.S.'s largest, most populated, and arguably most famous city, New York, has its main international airport named after none other than John F. Kennedy, a Democrat and the first (and only, sadly) Catholic president. (Thank goodness that this supposedly diverse and tolerant nation finally got one, if only just one, non-Protestant Christian president!) :)
And we had a special, express train named after him as well! Sorry Fred, but there is no way Reagan can top this one because he did not support rail service and most Republicans will almost certainly be too embarassed (or too politcally opposed) to name a rail service after arguably the most anti-railroad president in recent memory. I would just like to see someone propose a "Ronald Reagan" WMATA express line in DC, or introduce a bill for a "Reagan Acela" service on the floor of Congress. It would only be a matter of seconds before the WMATA offices or Capitol Hill broke out into an uproar of laughter! :)
-jovially and cordially,
turnstiles
I Support the George W. Bush High Speed Rail Line from Washington to Austin TX. GET BU$H OUT OF WASHINGTON FAST.
If that happens chaney will bring in his far right agenda. do you want that?
He'd probably have a heart attack on the first day from all of the stress.
Then Dennis Hastert would become the president.
Unless it's after 1/3/2003, in which case a Democrat would become the president.
Dream on baby. If you'll notice who controls most of the legislatures in this country, it's the Repulicans. We will lose some seats in my state, but we will gain in Michigan, Ohio, Florida, New Jersey, Illinois and Pennsylvania, just to name a few. We will pick up seats in 2002, not lose them. You might win a couple of seats to take the Senate, maybe, but we'll get it back in 2004. Make book on it.
Word is the GOP will lose control of the Senate 6 to 9 months from now -- unless one of the Democrats dies first.
As for the House, you have your crystal ball; and I have mine. We'll know in about 20 months.
Oh come on John, at least give him a try. Hell I spent eight long years having to listen and watch that blubbery liar from Arkansas pollute the airwaves with his lies and fibs and other assorted underhanded games.
Did you hear how Georgie baffled the South Koreans because he was changing verb tense from sentence to sentence when he was speaking to them?
Clinton lied, but telling half truths, and being deceitful is what 90%+ of successful politicians do.
In my eye I had to watch 8 years of the GOP trying to destroy someone they hated irrationally. He did drugs , cheated on his wife and got out of serving in Nam, but so what! The hypocritical Republicans ignored how their own membership of his age- like Newt and Dubya- did the same things.
I will not post anymore political content in this thread.
So what???? So what???? You DON'T cheat on your wife----ever.
>>>You DON'T cheat on your wife----ever.
Fred: This is exactly why I respect Hillary - few other women would have put up with such public philandering for 8+ years of their lives. Period. And yes, Hillary could have even left Bill if she wanted to: she was a Washington corporate lawyer (i.e. , could make more money than the President)- a lawyer who did not have to renounce her license to practice for a year! Now, she has a very stable cushy job for NYS (it will take a lot for NY's Dems to vote her out), whereas Bill is still moving "his" (loosely defined) furniture in!
-cordially,
turnstiles
So what???? So what???? You DON'T cheat on your wife----ever.
So what???? So What???? What he did was NOBODY'S business, except for his own and that of his wife.
And their marriage is a giant sham anyway. Our country would never elect a single man again, especially one who courts different women. They need a "family man," no matter how much of a lie that is.
In a perfect world, politicians wouldn't need sham marriages. I'm sure that they had a secret understanding about adultery in advance.
>>You DON'T cheat on your wife----ever.<<
I can tolerate adultery from politicians than from TV evangelists (at least the politicians don't PREACH against it).
Fred, we've given him nearly two months. In that time, he's picked a pretty good cabinet, with one or two exceptions who shall remain nameless; but he has also: failed to use his influence to get the House GOP to learn how to behave civilly, disavowed his promise to clamp down on pollution from (RIB take note) the burning of coal for electricity generation, increased the politicization of judicial appointments, enhanced the rights of creditors at the expense of debtors and in many other ways backed big business at the expense of the little guy, and pushed for a tax cut that the Senate will not approve by saying that the economy is going down the tubes, thereby scaring the hell out of the stock market and a large part of the general public. He's made a fettish out of a futile attempt to create the illusion of small government by sending up a budget that would hold down spending below the point that even the Senate GOP says is necessary at a time when there is sufficient revenue to address many unmet needs, pay down the national debt, and cut taxes. Still, he could have done a lot worse so far. The verdict won't be in for a while; but I have to say that, despite his positive points, I can't give him more than a C+ on his performance to date.
I just hope that he doesn't kill off federal aid to mass transit in his eagerness to find money for schools and the military.
And let's not forget his very FIRST act, destroying the reproductive rights of women. Gotta love a party whose very first act in power is to beat up on women ...
... and final comment on this thread ... can we PLEASE get past the politics here? To comment just so we all know both are full of ... ahem:
The democrats believe that government can cure cancer, get you that high paying job and make your lost puppy dog come home. The republicans on the other hand believe that government cannot and will not ever work and then they get elected and prove it.
(lost in upstate New York still waiting to see that so-called "leadership")
(The republicans on the other hand believe that government cannot and will not ever work and then they get elected and prove it.)
NO THEY DON'T THEY BELIEVE IN PASSING FOOLISH "MORALITY LAWS" YOU KNOW DRESS CODES THE WAR ON DRUGS AND XXX SHOPS.
NO THEY DON'T THEY BELIEVE IN PASSING FOOLISH "MORALITY LAWS" YOU KNOW DRESS CODES THE WAR ON DRUGS AND XXX SHOPS.
Yes they do. Look at Giuliani. Neither party is good for libertarianism.
KMA: Fair enough. You are objective and I respect that. He will do much for education, watch him. As for the tax cut, I got killed again this year. When a high school teacher has to pay $3,100 to Uncle Sam besides his payroll taxes, he needs a break. My daughter's college costs $27,700 a year. There are thousands and thousands of other just like me. We need a tax cut. Taxes are hurting millions of Americans.
>>> When a high school teacher has to pay $3,100 to Uncle Sam besides his payroll taxes, he needs a break <<<
Oh come on Fred, you won't get much sympathy here. If your only income was from teaching, then you under withheld during the year and got the use of the money until April 15th free. If the payment is because of other income, then the higher the amount you pay, the higher the other income was, and the more income the better.
I know I was never happier than when I was paying $50,000.00 a year in taxes to Uncle Sam.
Tom
KMA: Man, you are just way too kind and generous as I'd give "dubya" an F- flat-out. Exactly how did the village idiot get elected to the highest office in the land, anyway? Oh thats right, he was SELected and not really even Elected, by a GOP-dominated US Supreme Court, and the dud's OWN allegedly "fair" and "impartial" BROTHER and his personal lackey (and Florida state GOP chair) Catherine Harris in the deciding state which he "won".(????)
It's easy to guess who his main campaign contributors were in the race by simply examining what legislation he's already passed and WHO it benefits! Take MBNA credit card, they gave him millions, and sure enough have gotten their money's worth, as he has passed legislation which nearly cripples Chapter 7 and renders it terminally ill. Is it just me, or is it somehow unethical and immoral for the credit industry, at a time when they are trying to push more and more credit upon their new and existing vict -um, er, I mean customers, for them to at the same time seek to cut off any and all relief the customer might have through reorganization? RISK IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN A NATURAL PART OF BUSINESS!!!!! But what big-business in general is trying to effect is an artificial and unnatural business environment where risk is little or nothing and potential gain, profit, is greatly enhanced. This to me is but the latest installment in the enturies-old scheme where the little guy, the taxpayer, is always somehow expected to subsidize big business at his own expense! It's good for them, obviously, but not for the other 99.999999% of us that do not own credit card companies or other big-businesses.
Take also the private energy lobby, are you all really surpised that he renegged on one of his primary campaign pledges to regulate Carbon Monoxide emissions and to allow and encourage coal burning? I'm not, just look at how much $$$ big-energy coughed up for him.
SHAME on the Congressional Democrats who've allowed themselves to believe that practiceing "bipartisanship" and seeking "unity and non-division" means basically rubber-stamping anything and everything dubya and the GOP want!!!
Anyways, I feel kinda sorry for him, since he's about to inherit and presumably take credit for the impending recession, which he'll undoubtedly try to blame on congressional democrats or the past administration. Good luck,and get unstuck, Chuck!
-Peace and GB, Thomas :-)
It's easy to guess who his main campaign contributors were in the race by simply examining what legislation he's already passed and WHO it benefits! Take MBNA credit card, they gave him millions, and sure enough have gotten their money's worth, as he has passed legislation which nearly cripples Chapter 7 and renders it terminally ill. Is it just me, or is it somehow unethical and immoral for the credit industry, at a time when they are trying to push more and more credit upon their new and existing vict -um, er, I mean customers, for them to at the same time seek to cut off any and all relief the customer might have through reorganization?
Without getting into a way off-topic discussion, I'll just point out that a large majority of the Democrats in Congress supported the bankruptcy reform bill. So, for that matter, did Bill Clinton; he vetoed last year's version over some technical issues involving child support, not because he was opposed to its whole concept.
>>>I'll just point out that a large majority of the Democrats in Congress supported the bankruptcy reform bill. S
Pete: That is definitely worthy of note. However, IIRC the Republicans unanimously supported this bill in Congress. Even majority support pales in comparison with a unanimous party-line vote.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Mr. Rosa: I thought I had mentioned or meant to mentionin my post that in the current political climate in Congress, "Bipartisanship" now basically means a loosely-organized and otherwise shattered Democratic party rubber stamping anything and everything dubya and his GOP cronies want. Hence the possible reason so many dems crossed party lines to vote for the bankruptcy "overhaul".
Peace, Thomas:-/
Shrub actually explained "bipartisan" a couple of weeks ago ... and I quote, "we have a bipartisan agreement on this, we have the congress and we have the senate in agreement. That's bipartisan." You can't make stuff like this up. :)
Gee, and all this time I thought it meant when both GOP and Dem parties get together collectively in legislation . . .
Yeah, and you even can't buy "bush-isms" like that as they are now coming to be known as! Like "they misunderestimated me" and whatnot. Well heck, shrub, we wouldn't wanna MIS-underestimate you, we'd only wanna underestimate you correctly the first time.
Somebody call the police.
We have an illegitimate president who STOLE an election.
XMAS came in November this year. And it was the GOP-dominated US Supreme Court, and the dud'ds own "impartial" brother that did the gift-giving.
Say, how big and fancy DO you make a thank-you card when the gift received is as big and valuable as the US Presidency, anyway?
Peace and GB, Thomas :-)
(We have an illegitimate president who STOLE an election.)
The election both in florida and the nation was a statistical tie. we will NEVER know who won in florida no matter what anyone says. and although gore leads the poplar vote by 500,000 that is less than 1/2% of the total vote that to is a tie.
According to the Miami Herald, Gore won Florida by 113 votes after they did all the ballots statewide. Now what?
(According to the Miami Herald, Gore won Florida by 113 votes after they did all the ballots statewide. Now what?)
113 votes out of how many? That is still to close to call in my view they should have settled it with a coin flip.
OK, but it was OK to just ramrod Shrub through when it was 500 the other way? Gore won. Not that Gore was any prize either. The election was stolen. And before I get arrested by the NTSB for derailing this train, I'll leave it right there. I'm done. The width of the title for this thread probably took out a lot of pillars too. :)
Doesn't matter. Bush won 5-4 and that's all that counts.
The GOP has simply martyred Gore and disenfranchised even more groups that kind of already felt disenfranchised by them. There will be severe backlash for the GOP in the future and if you think about it, the single best thing that could've ever been done for future Dem presidential and congressional campaign hopes is to have a simpleton village idiot like shrub in office- Since he is representative of the entire party, people will just naturally assume by association that ALL GOPers are really that DUMB and INCOMPETENT. Look for a rebound effect at the polls in 2004, when the ticket will surely read once again "Clinton/Gore"!!
P.S. INHO, Gore should get kudos and props from both parties alike on how gracious and magnanomous he remained all throughout the controversy and even after the bitter end despite him knowing he was basically getting ROBBED!
Peace, Thomas :-/
That may be so. But then Shrub isn't the least bit shy or remorseful about pushing the farthest right wing policy he can imagine (despite his completely fraudulent rhetoric about being a "uniter".) He could do a lot of damage in these four years if he's allowed to.
As citizens it's our right and responsibility, whichever side of the political fence we're on, to take action when we feel there is injustice. There is a lot of (arguably misplaced) political awareness on these boards, and I hope we all remember to turn it outwards, and actually try to do something about the way the country is run. I know I've become more politically involved lately. Remember, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
Andrew
Whoa! That last quote about the price of freedom! Outstanding, and almost flows like poetry!! Can I reycle that myself? And did you think of that or were you borrowing from elsewhere?! All in all, a very good response, and not only cause it supports my assertions.
Peace and prosperity to all, Thomas:-)
Thank you! But I did not make it up. I don't know who did, but it's a central truth about Democracy (to tell you the truth, I first heard it from The Simpsons. I ought to find out who actually wrote it. Thomas Payne maybe?) But we should never forget that the right of democracy and freedom is something our forefathers fought and died for, and which we should never take for granted.
:-) Andrew
I'm not surprised, the Simpsons is actually very dry, very clever and witty social commentary disguised as an innocent enough, unassuming cartoon TV show.
It has universal appeal in that adults as well as kids will enjoy it for that reason. Tom Payne sounds about right.
Regards, Thomas the R-15 Subway Engine :-)
Actually, an informal search on the net shows a few sites attributing the quote to Thomas Jefferson.
:-) Andrew
(We have an illegitimate president who STOLE an election.)
The Election both in florida and the nation was a statistical tie. we will NEVER know who won in florida no matter what anyone says. and although gore leads the poplar vote by 500,000 that is less than 1/2% of the total vote that to is a tie.
That as much is true.
In a nation with a fair election system there would be a runoff without Nader or those other insignificant people. I'm sure the entire McReynolds vote would be enough to tip the election either way.
And that is why the other 48 States should do away with the "Winner-Take-All" format in dealing out their electoral votes (and it is NOT mandated in The Constitution).
>>>Shrub actually explained "bipartisan" a couple of weeks ago ... and I quote, "we have a bipartisan agreement on this, we have
the congress and we have the senate in agreement. That's bipartisan." You can't make stuff like this up. :)
Selkirk: Sounds a lot like a certain ex-VP of the older Bush as well. :). As the saying goes: "It doesn't take a rocket scientist..."
-cordially,
turnstiles
Turnstiles, old friend---I was a Democrat until the late 70's, and it is allright with me that there are airports and trains named after JFK. Hell, it was a speech by him introducing the first Peace Corps Volunteers in September of '61 that inspired me to become a teacher.
Kennedy didn't accomplish much legislatively but he inspired a whole host of young men like me to go something constructive with our lives. I'm afraid it was the likes of Johnson and Carter that drove me into the GOP where I happily reside today. And yes, I need a tax cut. I got creamed again by the tax people.
Get used to it. Ronald Reagan International Airport! It has a great ring to it and it is here to stay.
I guess you didn't notice, but it's called Reagan NATIONAL airport. There are no international flights.
Today DC, tomorrow Mount Rushmore.
It's nice that die-hard Republicans support destroying national landmarks.
The point of Mt. Rushmore is to commemorate great presidents. Putting Reagan on there would ruin the spirit of the monument.
They should put FDR up he saved the world
I wouldn't mind seeing FDR up there. Strange as it may seem to you, he is my second favorite President. Way way way behind Lincoln but second, neverthless. I even like him better than Reagan. How's that coming from a Republican?
>>>"Strange as it may seem to you, he is my second favorite President"
Fred: Why, may I ask?
-cordially,
turnstiles
Simple Turnstiles: He was a great President, period. But he gave us Social Security, unemployment insurance and aid to those who could not help themselves. The latter was fine until Johnson's people abused that in the 60's and turned many people into dependent beggars. Besides, he fought the Depression, and though it did not end until World War II, he took those two problems on and led us through the greatest war in history, only to die before he could see victory. He was man confined to a wheel chair, yet was a giant of a man. Yes, I will always love and admire FDR, not matter what my Republican colleagues may have to say about it. I think for myself and give credit where credit is due. At least I certainly hope I do.
Reagan will go down as a great President my friend. His policies brought down the Soviet Union, and even old apparatichicks of the dead and buried USSR say it was he who did them in. We have more money today because we don;t have to arm to the teeth as we did then because there is no enemy out there that threatens us. We're No. 1 because Reagan made sure we became No. 1 again, and that is the way it's going to stay. And that is why one day he will be on Mount Rushmore.
True, RR spent the Reds into the ground. No doubt he deserves full credit for that.
However, speaking of credit, we are still paying the bills for his military build up; and the reason that we have more money today is because, after Reagan and Bush Sr. left, we raised taxes enough to pay those bills and to continue increasing funding of the military. The fall of the Reds did not bring about a decrease in military spending; it only trimmed the increases. It was balancing the budget that brought down the interest rates that were strangling the economy.
While he shines in comparison to Bush Jr., I can think of several Presidents who I would rate more highly than RR.
National is not a International Airport, BWI and Dullas are. The longest flight from DCA is 1 RT a day to LA, otherwise it is like Burbank or LaGuardia short distance flights. When Demos take over Congress in 02, the name Reagan will be gone. He was the one who fired all the Aircraft Control, that alm,ost 20 years later it still has not recovered.
National airport should not only be renamed, it should be replaced and destroyed, as reagan destroyed the aspirations of working people everywhere and spawned the Taliban in Afghanistan. Tha Pope and Solidarity broke Communism ,not that idiot. BTW Marc Rich will pay BILLIONS to the State of NY and the federal Gov't (That's a lot more than that anti semitic dirtbag Cap Weinburger ever did for America.
>>>Tha Pope and Solidarity broke Communism ,not that idiot
John: A most interesting comment. The Pope certainly had a role in the fall of Communism in Poland, at least. Lech Walesa and the Solidarity is a prime example of a true working person's movement and a freedom fighting movement. And it is also an example from modern history, no less. Walesa was a genuine dock worker who was most frustrated with the communist government, and Solidarity was originally a true "grassroots" labor union (before it became a political party) - a free and independent (of the state) union that opposed Poland's communist-supported puppet "union". The fact that the primary opposition to the Communist party was a labor union (!) was perhaps the most telling sign that communism is no "worker's paradise".
-cordially,
turnstiles
Yes, and Walesa was inspired by Reagan. He said so himself. Eastern Europeans from Poland to Bulgaria have said repeatedly that Reagan's tough approach gave them the courage to challenge Communism and best it.
John John John, it WAS Reagan who brought down the Soviet Union. Lech Walesa and Solidarity even admitted it back in the early 90's I know you don't like the man but give him credit. He made us proud to be Americans again as well. What did Clinton do except bring disgrace to the office and disgrace to himself still.
Reagan made me ashamed when he ran out on Lebanon.
I think you're letting your (perfectly justified) revulsion for Slick Willy's personal failings cloud your judgment of his performance in office. I'm sure he would have accomplished a great deal more had he not had to waste so much time discussing his sex life.
I don't know what it would be like to be married to Hillary and I sure as hell wouldn't want to find out, but I'm old fashioned in that I believe marriage fidelity. You marry a woman and you must forsake all others PERIOD!!!!!!. My wife does not like to travel, and I do. She lets me go anywhere and everywhere I want. Why? Because she trusts me. She knows I have eyes only for her. That is the way it should be for all me. Clinton was a cheap sex hustler and I just cannot respect that.
You marry a woman and you must forsake all others PERIOD!!!!!!. My wife does not like to travel, and I do. She lets me go anywhere and everywhere I want. Why? Because she trusts me. She knows I have eyes
only for her. That is the way it should be for all me. Clinton was a cheap sex hustler and I just cannot respect that.
Fred: Ahhh- but Clinton is hardly unique in this infidelity! Remember Livingston - the GOP House Speaker candidate (after Newt Gingrich and before Dennis Hastert) that lasted about a week(!) before his own sexual scandal unfolded.
-cordially,
turnstiles
And let's not forget Mr. Piousness hisself, old Newtie ... not once, not twice but three times ... pot, kettle, black. Funny how a supposed raft of dead bodies, travelgate, bad real estate deals, this that and the other "high crime and misdemeanor" all came down to Bubba screwing an intern instead of us ... and STILL no indictments for all that tax money. Then reward the impeachment crowd by giving them all three branches of government. Whatta country.
Gotta watch out for them "holier than thou" types ...
>>>Gotta watch out for them "holier than thou" types ...
Selkirk: Agreed. Sometimes outwardly "religious" people are in fact among the least faithful and most sinful.
Concerning sexual scandals, both parties have had their fair share. Clinton is only one in an ocean of philandering officials. In fact (and sadly), he would fit in quite well with many of the Republicans in Congress who opposed him.
In addition to Livingstone and possibly Gingrinch (not very familiar with his sexual scandal), the Congressional Republicans have the following recent and known adulterers: Henry Hyde, Bob Packwood (sexual harassment while married is adultery and then some...), Dan Burton (Indiana), Helen Chenoweth (she may not have been married, but he definitely was), and....Bob Barr. Bob Barr, the "defender of the traditional family" (the same Barr who is currently battling the WMATA) had sexual relations with his future third (?!) wife while still married to his second. And IIRC, he divorced both(!) of his earlier wives. Since Barr was a leading Clinton opponent during his scandals, the hypocrisy here runs even more deeply.
I am quite certain that the list above is not comprehensive. And almost all of the men (and one woman) listed above were reelected at least once.
-cordially,
turnstiles
I won't chalk it up to "religious people" or even "overly religious people" ... whatever someone believes is up to them as long as they allow me my own beliefs. Buying into someone else's sidewalk act is their own reality. But the self-gratifying and pompous deserve their own person pin in the balloon.
As to philandering politicians, WHO CARES?! Marital issues are best left to the individuals, God and their own. Marital "problems" unless subject to blackmail, are really none of our business. The measure of any politician is what they do for the "political subdivision" they represent whether they be animal control officer, train operator, senator, governor or president. Matters not, it's none of our business UNLESS such conduct causes an actual compromise of their duties. I hardly believe that "kissing it" constituted treason and that's what impeachment is for. Nixon committed TREASON by subverting the constitution in his coverup activities. Bubba did not commit treason. I'll leave it there.
But indiscretions where they do NOT harm the state are none of our business. Since the accusations which followed, resulting in an impeachment, involved lying about marital relations, the impeachment was bogus in this case and was far better left to Bill, Hillary and God and again, none of our business as much as it was unsavory to the nth degree. As far as I am concerned, I am a political Harpo Marxist. We all did pretty good while Bubba was in compared to how we're doing now.
And finally, as to the "holier than thou" ... I genuinely live in a glass house. No joke. Picture one of those A-frame ski lodges on a hilltop with A frame roof and glass and that's my house. I'll share a life philosophy with you all that caused me to give up the rat race of the city and move upstate ... "Never take life too seriously and BEWARE of those who do" ... Rudy's one that gives me the willies. :)
As I told Pork, you ain't going to take over Congress in 2002. Read why in the post I sent to Pork---then weep.
The airport was officially renamed for Reagan something like two years ago. Whether Reagan himself has any awareness of that fact is doubtful, as his Alzheimer's disease is quite severe. So in a sense he really is "brain dead".
But this demand by Barr sounds truly obnoxious. He seems to be demanding what amounts to "tribute money" to honor Reagan. WMATA must change all the signs, etc. at the airport station using locally generated funds, and only then will they get federal funds to spend on other things? He is teling DC residents that they must use local taxes (or fare receipts) to honor Reagan, something they woud surely not choose to do, if they want federal help for their subway (that of the nation's capital). Rubbing their face in what he perceives as Reagan's "greatness", telling them to acknowledge it or else.
Isn't Barr also the one who denied DC the right to spend any money to certify the results of the referendum on medical marijuana they had a few years ago? After almost a year of no official results, the Supreme Court finally ruled they coud spend the three bucks or so which was all it took to make the announcement that the referendum had passed - though the results were promptly overridden by Congress, thanks again to Barr. In other words, he is quite openly hostile to any democracy in the nation's capital. Truly ugly.
(WMATA must change all the signs, etc. at the airport station using locally generated funds)
Or they could offically change the name but only change the signs when they need replaceing. On the T Charles was change to Charles/MGH some time ago but almost all signs read Charles.
How much did it cost them to make all the OTHER station name changes they've made recently?
i.e. Vienna = Vienna/Fairfax/GMU
i.e. Dunn Loring = Dunn Loring/Merrifield
i.e. West Falls Church/West Falls Church-GMU/UVA or whatever
i.e. Waterfront = Waterfront/SEU
i.e. Grosvenor = Grosvenor/Strathmore
i.e. Addison Road = Addison Road/Seat Pleasant
i.e. Woodley Park/Zoo = Woodley Park/Zoo/Adams Morgan
i.e. Mt.Vernon Square-UDC = Mt.Vernon Square/7th St Convention Center
i.e. U Street-Cardozo = U Street-Cardozo-African American Civil War Memorial (and a partridge in a pear tree!)
Not a big fan of Reagan, but this is a tempest in a teapot. Making a change like this would be insignificant when compared to some of the others described above.
wayne
>>> Making a change like this would be insignificant when compared to some of the others described above. <<<
It is not the cost that is as important as the political abuse of power being used to coerce the change.
Tom
Jim Barr is a crackpot who oughta be locked up for his own safety.
If that bonehead gets his way, and they decide to go to all the trouble, why stop there? How about a little marketing? The man was a staunch capitalist, after all...
Ronald Reagan National Airport
"Well, there you go again..."
:O)
I wouldn't have voted for Ronald Reagan with a ten-foot ballot, but, in restrospect, he certainly is a significant historical figure; and the airport is, after all, now officially Reagan National. A reasonable compromise (of which the thrifty Ronnie would surely have approved) might be for WAMTA to agree to change the name of the airport station to Reagan National on its publications, and update the station signs and maps as they otherwise come up for replacement.
Alan Follett
Intresting article in this weeks Chief about how the Transit Workers Union is trying to help out Track Supervisors, Level II who aren't even in the union.
Turns out by doing this, the union get get more flagging jobs, a "coverted assignment".
It is a good article on how track is inspected (curves and switches) and even an incited an unnamed Supervisor had where unprotected he was startled by an oncoming train. How switches are measured at 15 different points, call the master tower to throw the switch, 15 more measurements of the switch curing tracks. Measurments are done in increments of 1/32 of an inch.
The union has open a case with System Saftey about it. If you get a chance, check out this week's chief (I don't know if it is online).
The Washington DC SubTalk Field Trip for April 21, 2001 is now in the final planning stages. Some people have expressed interest but now that the plans are almost set in stone, please reread the information and see if you are interested in joining us. The current plan is as follows:
Arrive via Amtrak Train 79 at Union Station at 9:50, meet at Gate G in Union Station.
Red Line Lv Union Station 10:15 Ar Fort Totten 10:23
Green Line Lv Fort Totten 10:31 Ar Greenbelt 10:43
Green Line Lv Greenbelt 10:54 Ar Branch Avenue 11:41
Green Line Lv Branch Avenue 11:56 Ar L'Enfant Plaza 12:15
Lunch at or near L'Enfant Plaza or another downtown station. We may also cross the Potomac on the yellow line and eat at the food court at The Fashion Centre at Pentagon City (Pentagon City Metro) since I am not that knowledgeable about eateries near L'Enfant. Currently, there is about 90 minutes allotted for lunch, read on to figure out how we can cut down on this time.
Provided we eat at L'Enfant we continue with:
Yellow Line Lv L'Enfant Plaza 1:27 Ar Huntington 1:48
Yellow Line Lv Huntington 2:01 Ar King Street 2:04
Blue Line Lv King Street 2:16 Ar Franconia-Springfield 2:27
Blue Line Lv Franconia-Springfield 2:35 Ar Rosslyn 3:03
Orange Line Lv Rosslyn 3:17 Ar Vienna 4:39
Orange Line Lv Vienna 3:47 Ar Metro Center 4:16
Orange Line Lv Metro Center 4:28 New Carrolton 4:56*
Take Train 148 back to points north, leaving New Carrolton at 5:51
*This is the latest train we should take to gaurentee the connection to Amtrak Train 148 at New Carrolton
The current plan would require us to be back at L'Enfant Plaza at 1:20, meaning we have about one hour for lunch. If we saw the CAF cars on the Green Line, we probably could meet up with them, and cut into our time on the Virginia runs. We will go through 60 of the 83 stations or about 72% of the system. We will most likely have layovers of more than 5 minutes at the following stations allowing for photo ops:
Fort Totten
Greenbelt
Branch Avenue
L'Enfant Plaza and/or Pentagon City
Huntington
King Street
Franconia-Springfield
Metro Center
Rosslyn
Vienna
New Carrolton
Union Station
NOTE: Do not make your train reservations yet! This is not a finalized plan. With approval from most of the group, this will be the plan.
Please e-mail oren@orenstransitpage.com by April 3rd to finalize this plan or to propose changes. I will be away from March 28th until April 1st. After April 3rd or a majority of the group responds, whichever is first, I will finalize the plan at which point, you can e-mail me saying if you will come or not if you have yet to decide. After that time, you can make reservations. That should allow enough time for those in the Amtrak Guest Rewards Program to recieve points.
The sooner responses are made, the sooner the trip plans will be finalized.
We look forward to seeing you and we hope you can make the trip and meet some other SubTalkers!
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
I live in Baltimore and would very much like to participate in this. It sounds great. I can tell you that the D.C. Metro has some great elevated sections going out towards New Carrollton and National Airport.
Eric Dale Smith
I know. I've done the whole system. I've done New Carrolton once and loved that run but the elevated at National Airport is not that exciting. The best elevated is definately at Grosvenor but that isn't scheduled for this trip (one can only do so much, it would be at least 90 minutes to do the Shady Grove branch).
I hope you can join us!
sounds great to me
I Might attend ( if i can make it).
The More the merrier
Subtalkers:
Sounds like a nice trip. I'd love to join you gentlemen but cannot - but I will suggest that you're much better off eating at Pentagon City Mall, where the food court is close to the Metro entrance. L'Enfant Plaza on the street is an area of government buildings with a few coffee shops that are probably closed on Saturday - and you'll get more variety at Pentagon City as well.
I am very familiar with the DC Metro because I've been a regular traveler from NY to Northern VA for the last 25 years (my wife's sister lives in Northern VA). BTW, there's a $5 unlimited ride farecard you should buy before entering the Metro which will be good all day.
Have fun!
I am quite aware of what is near L'Enfant Plaza and am now pretty set on moving lunch to the Fashion Center. I do happen to be a DC Native.
Thanks anyway.
Or Union Station because of the many food stalls there.
We don't want to go back there. Pentagon City since we will be heading to Huntington after lunch.
BTW, are you going to leave us once we get to Vienna?
NOTE TO EVERYONE:
Due to the number of responses I am receiving about this topic, lunch will now be held at the Fashion Centre at Pentagon City. The reason I had said L'Enfant prior to now was because of timing and because the schedule was not very certain.
Please e-mail if you are coming (oren@orenstransitpage.com), we look foward to seeing you!
Wire the subway stations but not the tunnels for cell phones. This allows for the following:
1. You don't have to hunt for an unused clean working pay phone.
2. You can talk until the train comes (and see the train), unlike now where one has to wait upstairs while on the phone.
3. Can call police / ambulance easier.
4. If you realize you have to make a call now which will take time, all you have to do is get off at the next stop.
5. You won't abuse the phone with long useless conversations, since you'll be missing trains. Or, you get on the train and the call is disconnected before anyone is annoyed.
Add emergency exits to the mix, and it may be possible to use the phone almost anywhere in the system as long as the train is stopped. You can therefore find out what's going on in a delay, alert people you'll be late, etc.
Why? Because the most annoying and useless phone conversations are on moving trains. If the call is cut off upon entering a tunnel, this cuts down on that. Also, the need to make calls within stations will result in people only bothering to when necessary, and keeping it short in order to complete the entire call within the station's boundaries. IE: 'Hi, I'm on the train, be home in about 20 minutes, pick me up. I can't talk now, about to enter the tunnel.' No 'how was your day, mine was fine', 'put little Joey on', etc.
That's a good idea! You should work for transit. Wait, tranist doesn't like people with good ideas.
(That's a good idea! You should work for transit. Wait, tranist doesn't like people with good ideas. )
Hey, I went to my employee orientation today, and they said they do like people with good ideas.
I was thinking vaguely along the same lines, Henry's description makes total sense to me. Moreover, limiting to stations would save big bucks in installation (and be less disruptive for service), so the service provider might pay as much as before.
"Wire the subway stations but not the tunnels for cell phones."
As a cellphone user and commuter, I personally would have no problem with this. I don't recall how noisy the trains are in NYC, but it's pointless to hold a conversation -- live OR by phone -- on a moving CTA L train because of the noise. Sometimes, it's even too loud to talk when the train is on the L or median-strip lines and moving fairly fast. Yes, OUR trains can move fast. :^)
"You won't abuse the phone with long useless conversations, since you'll be missing trains."
I keep asking the question because people keep raising the point of "useless" or "stupid" telephone conversations: outside of people speaking loudly (on whatever topic), who is to decide what a "useless" conversation is?! Are the calls people make on "wired" phones judged for their importance? (Importance to whom?) And before you say such calls are made in the privacy of one's office or home, there were, and still are to a degree, public payphones.
"Why? Because the most annoying and useless phone conversations are on moving trains. If the call is cut off upon entering a tunnel, this cuts down on that."
I agree and disagree with this one. When a call is cut off or fading out, people start yelling (contrary to popular belief, NOT done with the purpose of annoying others but because it's an almost reflex action to raise one's voice when one can't hear) and doing odd things like shaking their phone and moving around in vain hope of improving reception. So the most annoying calls are made when the train is moving (and reception is that much worse), but cutting off calls will only make those "CAN YOU HEAR ME?" moments more common, not less.
"Also, the need to make calls within stations will result in people only bothering to when necessary,"
Again I ask: who decides what is "necessary" and why don't people talk about the necessity or urgency of calls made on "wired" phones?!
"IE: 'Hi, I'm on the train, be home in about 20 minutes, pick me up. I can't talk now, about to enter the tunnel.' No 'how was your day, mine was fine', 'put little Joey on', etc."
Judas priest on a pogo stick!! Don't ask how your spouse's day was, or say hello to your child for a few moments?!? That sounds like the brouhaha on this board about conductors saying or not saying "please" in the "stand clear of the doors" announcements! What's wrong with making civilized, polite, small talk (in a respectfully low voice) with a loved-one during a phone call?! People don't see their child all day, or their spouse or SO for several hours, and wish to engage in a few simple social niceities, because, even though they are evil inconsiderate yuppie scum cellphone owners, they are also (gasp!) human beings. Do you talk to a spouse, SO, or good friend like a soul-less robot or a telegram (Hello. On the train. Home soon. Good bye.) when you make a regular phone call? I suspect you don't, because most people don't, and it isn't any different because a call happens to be made on a cellphone.
If the call was important, you would be willing to miss the train for it.
As for the comment about talking to spouse / child, you will see them in a few minutes anyway. And, if it was important enough to the user, he should be willing to get off the train to continue the call.
As for my complaint against long calls, I know that myself and several of my friends have trouble keeping phone conversations low for an extended period of time. After two minutes I am in a normal speaking voice, and once I get involved in a conversation I end up yelling. Not all people have enough self-control to keep their voice down for extended periods of time.
Anyway, the whole post was an idea I had to try and keep trains cell phone free while allowing their use in the subway. On a train it is more difficult to move away from any annoyance than it is on a platform. Anyway, I believe all of the anti-cell phone crowd would not mind the extension of cellular use to platforms, while cell phone users wouldn't line up to complain that they can now use the phone in more places than before.
"Anyway, I believe all of the anti-cell phone crowd would not mind the extension of cellular use to platforms, while cell phone users wouldn't line up to complain that they can now use the phone in more places than before."
And to that extent I definitely agree with you.
>>> Wire the subway stations but not the tunnels for cell phones. <<<
That's good thinking for a compromise, but not a good solution. Your solution may be helpful for those who want to make calls from a cell phone, but the greatest utility of the cell phone is being available to receive incoming calls. Your solution does nothing for that.
There are those that look at the cell phone as an electronic leash which prevents them from getting away from business, but in fact it is just the opposite. It allows a person who needs to be available for decision making greater freedom to move around rather than being tied to a single location with a telephone. Whether it's your broker calling to tell you he just learned that a small medical research company has just found and patented the cure for cancer, or your secretary calling to tell you that your biggest client is mad as hell because of something you failed to do, and needs immediate TLC, or Naomi Campbell is trying to reach you to let you know she will be free to go to dinner that evening, or just your wife calling to remind you to stop at the market and bring home a loaf of bread, you appreciate being able to get the message wherever you are, and reception in the stations only is not good enough.
Just as the wired telephone system becomes more useful the farther it is extended (maybe you do not remember when you had to book a trans Atlantic call in advance or wait four hours to get through from the left coast to New York on Mother's Day), cell phones need good reception everywhere to increase their value. The subways are too important to New York to have them be dead zones for cell phone communications. This is the 21st century, and those whining about the use of cell phones will be in the same class as those who wanted to ban automobiles because they scared the horses at the start of the 20th century.
Tom
Whether it's your broker calling to tell you he just learned that a small medical research company has just found and patented the cure for cancer, or your secretary calling to tell you that your biggest client is mad as hell because of something you failed to do, and needs immediate TLC, or Naomi Campbell is trying to reach you to let you know she will be free to go to dinner that evening, or just your wife calling to remind you to stop at the market and bring home a loaf of bread, you appreciate being able to get the message wherever you are, and reception in the stations only is not good enough.
Here's a way to kill two birds with one stone: tell the angry client that he can take your place and have dinner with Naomi. Oh, and I'd ignore the broker's call as the information isn't true; if it were true, the broker would be out buying stock himself, not telling other people.
>>or Naomi Campbell is trying to reach you to let you know that she will be free to go to dinner that evening<<
I wish.
You're not the only one. A girl who looks like Naomi's ghetto cousin would suffice.
Well put, Tom. I've been thinking about how to express my opinion in this fray without sounding like a mouthpiece for my employer (a major telecommunications firm) or like a snob, dependent as I have become on my phone - or better said, other people being dependent on being able to reach me on my phone. You did an excellent job of expressing what I am thinking - thanks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The easiest compromise is to install transmitters everywhere because the anti-cellphone crowd's arguments are weak and meritless.
How can you just "wire up" cells only in stations? EM waves know no boundries, the signal going from the station cell to the phone would probably be able to travel down the tunnel for some distance. Since stations are ony about 1/4 to 1/2 mile apart, the cells at two ajacent stations will probably overlap.
Personally, I think people should be able to talk on their phones anywhere they want. People are allowed to talk to each other person anywhere they want. What's the difference in listening to two people talk face to face and someone talking on the phone? In fact, you only hear half as much noise, since you can't hear the person on the other end. Don't use an arguement that people on cell phones aren't talking about something important, becuase no one has the right to judge was is an important conversation and what is not.
Today was another bloodbath on Wall Street, the Dow dropping over 200 points, even though the economic news was at least somewhat optimistic. But no, Computer Sciences Corp. said that its quarterly earnings would be only one-third what it had estimated. Sheep-like investors drove its stock down 40% and spread the carnage throughout the markets. The last several trading days have been absolutely catastrophic for stocks and, of course, for investors. Maybe things will change after Tuesday's FOMC meeting, although anything less than a 75-basis point rate cut (which the Greenspan Fed has never done and which may not be warranted by the state of the economy) may "disappoint" the sheep, er, investors, and cause more bloodshed.
Let me point out that these stock market plunges have little direct effect on me. My investments are in my 401K and are in there for the long term. My job is reasonably secure, all things considered, and my wife's nursing job is bascially as safe as any job can be. But it's the psychological impact that's going to hurt. As I've pointed out before, I had the very unpleasant experience of going through the Great Recession while living in Connecticut during the early 1990's. Scarcely a day goes by that I don't think back to those horrible times. You might say that I'm ultra-hypersensitive to even the most casual talk of recession.
Why's that a problem? You can rest assured that the financial and general media will be chock-full of recession talk this weekend. Economic "experts" will be trotted out to forecast doom and gloom, and they'll be pointing their fingers at the stock market as proof. Maybe they won't be advising us to stock up on canned foods and guns, but then again ... I much prefer to focus on fundamentals - which aren't all that bad - but it will be very hard to escape all this sky-is-falling oral diarrahea. What a way to ruin what otherwise probably would have been a decent weekend.
Now, to get things back on-topic, if ever there was a weekend that I could use a little railfanning, it would be this one. Anything to get my mind off the Chicken Littles out there. Is the Branford museum open? I'd be willing to make the trek up there. Any other suggestions, keeping in mind that I live in Suffolk County?
J. P. Morgan's succinct remark about the market: "Stocks fluctuate."
Imagine what J.P. Morgan would have said about W. and his Chicken Little act.
This question is directly related to Subtalk:
How do you change to Bold/Italic letters? Apparently I did it by accident in an earlier post. I also don't know how to post pictures in a post. Anyone's help here would be appreciated (please do not respond if you are going to be spiteful/insult my lack of Posting knowledge).
<i>This text is italicized</i>
<b>This text is bold</b>
<u>This text is underlined</u>
Try Ben's Planet for a good HTML tutorial, to answer the rest of your questions... look up the <img> tag for pictures, <a href> for links in the "HTML Dictionary."
thanks.
You might also want to use the 'view source' function in your browser. If you have Netscape, simply right-click anywhere on the webpage you're viewing to see the HTML code for that whole page. You can then look for, for example, the bolded text to see how the browser knows to bold it and stop bolding it. Netscape will open a new browser window to show you the "source." (MS Explorer will usually let you view the source in Notepad.) If you do this with any page, it will give you an idea of the language the webmaster (or HTML editor) used to create it.
You need to use HTML. IMPORTANT: Replace the ( and ) with < and > respectively to do this. If I didn't use the parenthesis, you would be unable to see what to type since HTML tags are hidden.
FONT EFFECTS:
(b)=BOLD
(i)=ITALICS
(u)=underline
To end the bold, underline, or italics, type (/b), (/u), and (/i)
(font color=red)=RED TEXT
If you don't want red, simply plug in the color you want where it says red. Explaining how to use the HEX color thingy is too complicated. Popular colors:
Red
Green
Blue
Yellow
Purple
Brown
Black
Gray
Gold
To return to black text, you can not use the traditional (/?) tag. You should type (font color=black).
Now for the pictures:
You need to have a picture already on the internet. For this example I will be using the following photo:
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/washdc/images/southernave2.jpg. It is a photo of the Southern Avenue WMATA Station that I took on January 13, 2001.
To put in any photo, type (img src=http://www.nycsubway.org/us/washdc/images/southernave2.jpg). Remember to plug in the actual URL for the picture you want to post. Now, if you wish to make the photo smaller on your screen, you need to type in the number of pixels you want the photo to be, like this:
(img src=http://www.nycsubway.org/us/washdc/images/southernave2.jpg height=200 width=300)
IMPORTANT: Replace the ( and ) with < and > respectively to do this. If I didn't use the parenthesis, you would be unable to see what to type since HTML tags are hidden.
Hope this helps!
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com
P.S. Dave, if you want to add this to the FAQ, you are free to do so. I think it would be a valuable addition!
Thanx. excuse my incompetence but:
WHAT is an HTML.
I still don't know what to do. That was helpful, but do you just press (B) and BAM you get bold text?
"BAM"
Are you trying to act like that cook on Good Morning America on friday and on CH.50 (NYC)?
Dominick Bermudez.
HTML is like a lanuguage (for computers)
No. As I said, you have to replace the parenthesis with < and >.
(=< and )=> in my explanation. Without doing that, you would have been unable to see how to do it!
Not true.
Use ESCAPE SEQUENCES. Use < to cause < to appear
> makes > appear
(how to remember? lt=less than, gt=greater than)
and of course, I made those display by using & to represent &
You can also use escape sequences for special characters like ö (ö) and ¢ (¢)
The number is the ascii code, you can use an ascii code to display an unkeyboarded character with the &#code; format as I did for ¢
You can also do it directly in ANY WINDOWS APP by, with numlock on, holding alt, and entering the four-digit code with the numeric keypad (if the code has less than four digits use a leading zero so ALT+0162).
When I previewed, everything came out fine, and then it didn't when I finally posted, so I'll try to post directly, if it didn't work, then I'll mention it.
Not true.
Use ESCAPE SEQUENCES. Use < to cause < to appear
> makes > appear
(how to remember? lt=less than, gt=greater than)
and of course, I made those display by using & to represent &
You can also use escape sequences for special characters like ö (ö) and ¢ (¢)
The number is the ascii code, you can use an ascii code to display an unkeyboarded character with the &#code; format as I did for ¢
You can also do it directly in ANY WINDOWS APP by, with numlock on, holding alt, and entering the four-digit code with the numeric keypad (if the code has less than four digits use a leading zero so ALT+0162).
(H)yper (T)ext (M)arkup (L)anguage
Its easy to create to a link to a website for example if I wanted a link that headed to the mbta website this what you type in (A HREF="http://www.mbta.com")mbta website then you add the (/A) tag. Don't forget to replace the () with <> This is what it looks like Click here to go to the MBTA website
TESTING:
My favorite subway is the Flushing IRT. It is also called the (7)
:-) Andrew "MisterK" Kirschner
Let's try that font color again:
7
>>> Let's try that font color again: <<<
You failed to put the end tag "/FONT>" in you post. That is why you got no color. And BTW you can do your testing on preview pages and not waste the space on the board with a test post.
Tom
You can also make a test page in NOTEPAD or any other text editor, save it with the HTML or HTM extension (the text after the . when you enter the filename) and then when you double click on it, it will open in your browser with HTML formatted.
It's purple.
Actually, the hexadecimal system is pretty simple. With two digits representing the three primary colors, you mix them to get any color you want. RRGGBB Digits run from 0-9, then A-F, which are single digit representations of 10-15. 16, the new "base" is written as "10", then it's 10-19, then 1A-1F; 20-29, 2A-2F..........90-99, 9A-9F, then A0-A9, AA-AF, all the way up to F0-F9, FA-FF. This is just a 2 digit way to represent 1-255, like on the color palettes on the computer. A Primary color is FF or any other high value in the right place. The middle prime is green, unlike paints, where it is yellow. Yellow, along with magenta and sky blue are the secondary colors, and these are made with FF's (high values) in two of the primary slots. You can adjust secondary colors by decreasing the primary colors. Orange, for instance is made with two parts red to one green, or FF8800 80(128) represents half, instead of 50, since this is a base 16 system. Unused primes are 0's. Adding a third primary color makes pale the color you have. All colors on (FFFFFF) is white, all half on (~808080) are grays, and black is all off (000000). You do not have to remember all of hexadecimal equivalents. I round them off. The colors used for subway lines can pretty much be approximated with 00's, 80's, FF's, (though at least one person insisted something like "you must use F0DC34 to get that Broadway gold".)
I just tested, and the names work for me now, but at one time they didn't, (perhaps the browser, server, etc. didn't recognize names) but the hex codes always worked. Plus you can make many hues that haven't been named.
Tags are written the same as with the names, with the hexadecimal code preceded by #-- (#RRGGBB).
The ‹/FONT› tag works for me, both with names and hexadecimal, to change the color back to default (black).
It goes from 0-255, for 256 different color combinations.
Why 256? Because that's what's represented by 8 full bits.
A binary digit is either 0 or 1, it then resets to 10, then 11, 100, 101, 110 etc.
In decimals, 8 digits gets you 108 because it's base 10. With a base 2, one gets 28 which is 256 (use a calculator). Zero counts.
Since 16 is a power of 2, it's a good computer numbering system, since one can readily convert numbers to binary.
And don't use ‹ and › for displaying HTML tags. They might look similar, but somebody might copy and paste and thinking they're the same, not change them. use < and >
Like this???
font face="arial"
font size="5"
I hate Times New Roman.
/font
For some reason if I put the ; after the lt and gt things, the text in between vanishes. Without them it's fine. Since on some browsers one needs the ; I decided not to bother.
Matter of fact, I won't close it, it looks better this way...
For some reason if I put the ; after the lt and gt things, the text in between vanishes. Without them it's fine. Since on some browsers one needs the ; I decided not to bother.
The problem has been solved, but if you preview, it creates a problem, so when you preview, instead of posting from the preview screen, go back, and click the regular post button.
Also, your not closing of the tag means nothing to me. My default font already is Arial.
Okay, first, let me start off with a question? When and where the hell did you anti-cell phone clique people buy a piece of the subway to call your own? (Gasp!) You didn't!? Well, here's another question...
WHAT THE HELL GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO SAY WHAT IS AND WAHT ISN'T A REASONALBE USE FOR A CELL PHONE ON A TRAIN!!??!
People have different reasons for doing EVERYTHING, not just cell phone usage. How do you know chatting with a "gossip contact" isn't something important to their lives? The world isn't here to please you and kiss your ass. The world is here to be dealt with, and you're just going to have to deal with cell phones on subways.
Businessmen need to make calls, women need rides, and youngsters may not want to sit and watch you wax poetic about Redbirds and R46s and R62s, something of which many know nothing. They most likey want to get on their cell phone, call up their girl and try to have somewhere to go when they get off the subway. The subway isn't there so just YOU can be happy. The subway is there for everyone. From the rich businessmen, to the working class, to the homeless, and even to the rats and roaches that need to go crosstown to visit there relatives.
People do want to have something to do on those hour long rides from point A to point B. And if they need to talk on the cell phone, then so be it. Not everyone wants to talk to the wierd smelly guy sitting next to them.
And I really don't think it's selfish at all. Do you know when you sit down next to someone on the subway, they may not want you there and consider you selfish for not thinking about that? Or, how about those selfsih business men who need to use the phones to conduct business so they can make money for their families? The nerve of them! Working?! On the subway, instead of talking about how crappy R-142s and technology are in general and how Redbirds and five cent colas are the best thing since sliced bread! The nerve of those cell phone wielding heathens! To Rikers with them!
So, in conclusion, until you own a piece of the subway, you shouldn't be complaining about something totally legal and a minimal nuisance if any at all. The next time you sit next to someone, think about this, you may have just annoyed the hell out of them. But what can they do? It's a public subway. So, think about that.
Oh, and one more thing. If a cell user is annoying you so much, get up and go to another car, even if you do have to stand. The way some of you detest cells and their users it would seem a pleasure to stand up just to get away from them. But you don't, so it really isn't that bad, now is it?
I'm assuming this is aimed toward me (use of the word Celley, 2nd person usage....)
>>People have different reasons for doing EVERYTHING, not just cell phone usage. How do you know chatting with a "gossip contact" isn't something important to their lives? The world isn't here to please you and kiss your ass. The world is here to be dealt with, and you're just going to have to deal with cell phones on subways.<<
And I'm sure that murder is important to serial killers. Why not leave axes in our house, just so they can kill anyone and not have to worry about there being a murder weapon traceable to them. (I know it's a gross exaggeration. Shut up already)
>>Businessmen need to make calls, women need rides, and youngsters may not want to sit and watch you wax poetic about Redbirds and R46s and R62s, something of which many know nothing. They most likey want to get on their cell phone, call up their girl and try to have somewhere to go when they get off the subway. The subway isn't there so just YOU can be happy. The subway is there for everyone. From the rich businessmen, to the working class, to the homeless, and even to the rats and roaches that need to go crosstown to visit there relatives.<<
I don't talk about cars or any subway information to people on the subway. Quite frankly, i don't give a damn if they know the difference between a redbird and an airplane. I don't think the world is here to please and kiss my ass. And generally, I wouldn't want it to. But it isn't here to kiss cell phone users asses either. Go figure.
>>People do want to have something to do on those hour long rides from point A to point B. And if they need to talk on the cell phone, then so be it. Not everyone wants to talk to the wierd smelly guy sitting next to them.<<
I know what they can do! They can shut the hell up and ride. this is the subway. Not an entertainment center.
>>And I really don't think it's selfish at all. Do you know when you sit down next to someone on the subway, they may not want you there and consider you selfish for not thinking about that? Or, how about those selfsih business men who need to use the phones to conduct business so they can make money for their families? The nerve of them! Working?! On the subway, instead of talking about how crappy R-142s and technology are in general and how Redbirds and five cent colas are the best thing since sliced bread! The nerve of those cell phone wielding heathens! To Rikers with them!<<
Didn't know that people worked on the subway (excluding TA workers and the like). They don't need to talk about crappy R-142's. I don't do that either. Anyone who does should be shot.
>>So, in conclusion, until you own a piece of the subway, you shouldn't be complaining about something totally legal and a minimal nuisance if any at all. The next time you sit next to someone, think about this, you may have just annoyed the hell out of them. But what can they do? It's a public subway. So, think about that.<<
Damn right it's public. So why should private companies be allowed to put wires down there, another system to be operated in those tunnels. Who will maintain those wires? If it's TA workers, it means PUBLIC Tax dollars will be going to a PRIVATE companies repair costs. If its company workers, then they will still need to be trained and the TA pays for that. Public money going to the private.
>>Oh, and one more thing. If a cell user is annoying you so much, get up and go to another car, even if you do have to stand. The way some of you detest cells and their users it would seem a pleasure to stand up just to get away from them. But you don't, so it really isn't that bad, now is it?<<
I don't care if i'm sitting or standing. It doesn't matter.
But look at the following:
Subways are louder than commuter rail. Phones with poor connections will not fare well down here.
Imagine this scenario:
Rush hour on the Lexington 5 line:
Cell phone user calls home. "Hi, i'm coming home. I'm coming HOME. I SAID I WAS COMING HOME!!!!" All the while their shouting in your ear.
People might think it's selfish for someone to sit next to them. Then they shouldn't sit down. I don't think it's fine to use cell phones in such an enclosed place. (Pork's probably going to kill me for saying "I don't think it's fine", but I really don't care)
I agree with alot of your arguments.
While I believe in everyones's personal rights and freedoms, I do have a problem with the 'uncontrolled urge' that people w/'cells' have to just start a friggin' (and often non-sensical) conversation at some of the most awkward public locations?
And while we're at it, can someone please tell me WHAT DID THOSE PEOPLE WHO NOW HAVE CELL PHONES DO BEFORE THE INVENTION OF THE CELL PHONE, HUH? There in lies the $1 million dollar question.
That outta shut alot traps on this site...
BMTman
This "What did they do before this was invented" argument is old and tired.
What did people do before the invention of the telephone? They wrote letters or went across town to meet in person.
Are you saying that we should go back to writing letters instead of making phone calls just because it CAN be done the old way? Well, that's the argument you're pulling here.
[Are you saying that we should go back to writing letters instead of making phone calls just because it CAN be done the old way? Well, that's the argument you're pulling here.]
Every heard of the Phone booth??? (aka pay phones where you can go and have a more PRIVATE conversation, w/o the rest of the world hearing your daily doings, prey tell?)
BMTman
What's a booth??? :-)
The phone booth is a thing of the past, like Hi-V's, streetcars on Broadway, double deck buses on Fifth Avenue and phone numbers like Murry Hill 5467.
Remember the gag in the first Superman movie? Clark hears an emergency (the super-hearing at work) and rushes to the street, and comes up on a - phone kiosk!! (No Clark rushes into phone booth, Supes comes out.)
[phone numbers like Murry Hill 5467. ]
Was Murray Hill MRY? If so mine is it, still :-)
Arti
I did misspell it, but the all-number plan used the first 3 numbers of the exchange name - MURray Hill became 687. When the Bell Companies went to 7 digit dialing from 6, numbers like Murray Hill 5467 became MUrray Hill 7, 5467. With ANC that went to 687-5467. No magic in that, is there?. Like those Hi-V's and streetcars and double deck buses, that era is gone forever.
Interesting, so the exchange naming disappeared along with 6 digit dialing?
Bummer of course, as I already had my hopes up having a "historical" phone number :-)
Arti
Since Baltimore and New York were both Bell Companies, the names sorta dissapeared when the dialing went to 7 digits. My own exchange was Clifton. When you dialed it with 6 digits you dialed CLXXXX. With 7 it became CL4XXXX. With all numbers it's 254xxxx. Now we have 10 digit dialing, so now it's 410254xxxx. I have on my downstairs desk a fully restored Western Electric model 302 telephone. (The 302 was the first WE desk phone that did not have an exteral box with the ringer.)On it is an original number card that proclaims the number as "Wait for Dial Tone CLIFTON XXXX."
My grandmother's phone was CL2, for Cloverdale.
Depending on your phone number, you may have an older exchange that was originally a name. A lot of numbers in St. George start with 727. That's SAint geroge 7. And of course, PEnnsylvania 6-5000 still works.
-Hank
The phone booth is a thing of the past, like Hi-V's, streetcars on Broadway, double deck buses on Fifth Avenue and phone numbers like Murry Hill 5467.
It probably wouldn't be possible to build new phone booths due to ADA issues.
>>>>The phone booth is a thing of the past, like Hi-V's, streetcars on Broadway, double deck buses on Fifth
Avenue and phone numbers like Murry Hill 5467. <<<
Actually, Verizon put in a brand new one, on West End Avenue in the 60s. I passed it today. I hope they catch on!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Last time I checked, there were some vintage models in the IND 57th Streeet station.
Every heard of the Phone booth??? (aka pay phones where you can go and have a more PRIVATE conversation, w/o the rest of the world hearing your daily doings, prey tell?)
Again, should we all write letters just because it was done a certain way before?
Pay phones are horrible. They cost more (believe me, they do), you have to stay in the same place all the time, they have to be maintained by the phone company, people can steal your calling card number, you have to try and find one and tell me, where is the pay phone on a train car?
Years ago, before I had a cell phone, I recall that hardly any of them worked. Also IMHO they are quite unsanitary.
Arti
I also forgot, what happens if they're all occupied? At least I don't have to worry about someone else using my cell phone.
>>>>Pay phones are horrible. They cost more (believe me, they do), you have to stay in the same place all the
time, they have to be maintained by the phone company, people can steal your calling card number, you
have to try and find one and tell me, where is the pay phone on a train car? <<<
Um, you paid a dime, closed the door, and you weren't bothering anyone. This was pre-calling cards or cordless phones. Somehow, you didn't need to BE moving when having a phone conversation.
I'm no anti-tech or Luddite, but based on what I see with cellies, pay phones were the s!@t.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Um, you paid a dime,
They cost 35¢ in most places now. Even with the lower prices (25¢) in NY, it's still more expensive, not to mention having all that change, trying to fish for it to continue the conversation and then not being able to continue when you run out. And then if you put in too much, you lose the extra money.
closed the door
They don't have doors anymore.
and you weren't bothering anyone.
I don't bother anyone with my cell phone, unless they have an irrational fear of cell phones, in which case, I don't give a shit about their selfish "needs."
This was pre-calling cards or cordless phones.
Cordless phones absolve one of the need to install a phone in every room. Calling cards eliminate the nuisance of using change that I mentioned above.
Somehow, you didn't need to BE moving when having a phone conversation.
There was once a day when you didn't need to talk to someone across the world live. Just because it used to be done that way at some point, doesn't mean it can and should be done the same way today.
I'm no anti-tech or Luddite
From your comments, you certainly exhibit the principal signs of it.
Fear of new technology and trying to justify the use of old ones. Just like those FREAKS who use mechanical typewriters.
but based on what I see with cellies, pay phones were the s!@t.
Stop masking words, it's a pain in the ass, I can't figure out what you're saying and I can't respond to it.
but based on what I see with cellies, pay phones were the s!@t.
>>Stop masking words, it's a pain in the ass, I can't figure out what you're saying and I can't respond to it.<<
He said: but based on what I see with cellies (misspelled) pay phones were the shit!
He said: but based on what I see with cellies (misspelled) pay phones were the shit!
That makes no sense unless he's taking an anti-pay phone stance, which he isn't.
>>>>He said: but based on what I see with cellies (misspelled) pay phones were the shit! <<<
Hmmm, I seem to have mispelled a word which was made up in this forum. Till I see it in Websters, I think I'll stick to my spelling (cellies)
Well, Pork, if you have no objection to loud ringing in your ears, and inconsiderate, rude people talking much louder than they need to into their cellphones, that's fine.
Me, I like a quiet ride home, and thousands of others of commuters do too.
But peace and quiet is an ideal that we've abandoned for the sake of convenience and commerce.
>>>>I don't bother anyone with my cell phone, unless they have an irrational fear of cell phones, in which case,
I don't give a shit about their selfish "needs." <<<<
Hmmm...I don't think 'fear' is the word. It's more like 'loathing.' I have come to loathe the devices because they deprive me, and others, of a relaxing ride home.
>>>>>They cost 35¢ in most places now. Even with the lower prices (25¢) in NY, it's still more expensive, not to
mention having all that change, trying to fish for it to continue the conversation and then not being able to
continue when you run out. And then if you put in too much, you lose the extra money....They don't have doors anymore. <<<
I meant the old fashioned phone BOOTHS. You got in, shut the door, and you could yell or scream to your heart's content and nobody knew but you and the person on the line. Fishing for a dime, later a quarter, was never a problem for me.
>>>>From your comments, you certainly exhibit the principal signs of [Luddism]. <<<<
I use a digital camera and a Mac armed with some of the latest graphic software. On general principle, though, I shall never use a cellphone on public transportation.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>> Well, Pork, if you have no objection to loud ringing in your ears, and inconsiderate, rude people talking much louder than they need to into their cell phones, that's fine. <<<
Isn't this really a criticism of the inconsiderate users of cell phones and not the cell phones themselves? No one likes a boor. This is new rapidly expanding technology. Once the novelty wears off, experienced cell phone users do not talk in loud tones or have the alert tone on their phone set higher than necessary.
>>> Me, I like a quiet ride home, and thousands of others of commuters do too. <<<
May I suggest a limousine as the appropriate transportation for you. I have never considered the subway "a quiet ride" to anywhere.
>>> I meant the old fashioned phone BOOTHS. You got in, shut the door, and you could yell or scream <<<
Yeah, and you could even change your clothes there if you happened to be a super hero. The phone booths and the ten cent call (I even remember the nickel call, with the mouthpiece attached to the body of the phone and only the earpiece on a cord) are from an earlier era, cell phones are what we have now. Although I really enjoy and appreciate your "forgotten-ny" website, it is not possible to live in the past.
Tom
Tom I remember the 5cent call
Well, Pork, if you have no objection to loud ringing in your ears, and inconsiderate, rude people talking much louder than they need to into their cellphones, that's fine.
You're stereotyping all cell phone users as rude, inconsiderate people.
Me, I like a quiet ride home, and thousands of others of commuters do too.
Thousands more would prefer to stay in touch with their loved-ones and associated acquaintances.
But peace and quiet is an ideal that we've abandoned for the sake of convenience and commerce.
Yes. Peace and quiet is what you get in the countryside. Besides, anybody can get peace and quiet in their own apartment.
Hmmm...I don't think 'fear' is the word. It's more like 'loathing.' I have come to loathe the devices because they deprive me, and others, of a relaxing ride home.
How can you be relaxed in a place where you're pushed against everybody else and sitting on a hard seat (if sitting at all), rocking side to side and making a hell of a lot of noise. Cell phones are only a small addition to that.
If you want a truly relaxing ride home, hire a limousine.
I meant the old fashioned phone BOOTHS. You got in, shut the door, and you could yell or scream to your heart's content and nobody knew but you and the person on the line. Fishing for a dime, later a quarter, was never a problem for me.
Eventually you run out of coins, a calling card is a lot more convenient. I have one of those too in case I need to make a call from a subway platform. But even then, a cell phone is cheaper and more convenient, and more sanitary.
I use a digital camera and a Mac armed with some of the latest graphic software. On general principle, though, I shall never use a cellphone on public transportation.
I will use a cellphone wherever talking is acceptable. So I won't use a phone in a theater, a library or a classroom. A train is not a haven for quietness.
Although this thread is pertaining to cell phones on subways, I have a suggestion for SEPTA's regional Rail: on our Silverliner fleet, there is an area of the car where the center door would be on a NJ Transit Silverliner. I suggest that this area could be converted into a phone booth (and install a pay phone), that way the cellys could have their private converstion, or use the pay phone itself.
>>>I'm assuming this is aimed toward me (use of the word Celley, 2nd person usage....)<<<
Paranoid, much.
>>>And I'm sure that murder is important to serial killers. Why not leave axes in our house, just so they can kill anyone and not have to worry about there being a murder weapon traceable to them. (I know it's a gross exaggeration. Shut up already)<<<
Rule of Debate No. 2270: Don't use a stupid argument, then point out said stupidity, it makes you look stupid.
>>>I don't talk about cars or any subway information to people on the subway. Quite frankly, i don't give a damn if they know the difference between a redbird and an airplane. I don't think the world is here to please and kiss my ass. And generally, I wouldn't want it to. But it isn't here to kiss cell phone users asses either. Go figure.<<<
Obviously the world isn't here to kiss the cell phone users ass either becuase there are a few unreasonable people like yourself out there. But, instead of listening to your incessant rambling, one can pop open his cell phone and talk about that annoying guy on the subway who is screaming like a bitch at a prison everyone time someone opos out their phone, making them better at dealing with the world.
>>>I know what they can do! They can shut the hell up and ride. this is the subway. Not an entertainment center.<<<
Here's what you can do. Walk! last time I checked, it was the NYCT Subway System, not J trainloco's Private Quiet Cars. But, in the 0% chance I am wrong, can any TA workers inform me if their has been a change of command.
>>>Didn't know that people worked on the subway (excluding TA workers and the like). They don't need to talk about crappy R-142's. I don't do that either. Anyone who does should be shot.<<<
You're right. The nerve of any one even THINKING of working on the subway. You come first. They must all be quiet for the sake and comfort of J trainloco.
>>>Damn right it's public. So why should private companies be allowed to put wires down there, another system to be operated in those tunnels. Who will maintain those wires? If it's TA workers, it means PUBLIC Tax dollars will be going to a PRIVATE companies repair costs. If its company workers, then they will still need to be trained and the TA pays for that. Public money going to the private.<<<
You know, PRIVATE companies make those soft cushy subway seats we sit on. They do have to be repaired and replaced at tax payer expense. Since TA employees are reparing private work, why not just eliminate subway seating all together!? And those hand rails and straps, private companies make those too. Let's eliminate those and then everyone can just bunch together in one of J trainloco's; NO CELL PHONE, NO SEAT, NO STRAPS OR HANDRAILS, BARE BONES, PRIVATE QUIET CARS. It'd be splendiferous! NOT!
>>>I don't care if i'm sitting or standing. It doesn't matter.
But look at the following:
Subways are louder than commuter rail. Phones with poor connections will not fare well down here.
Imagine this scenario:
Rush hour on the Lexington 5 line:
Cell phone user calls home. "Hi, i'm coming home. I'm coming HOME. I SAID I WAS COMING HOME!!!!" All the while their shouting in your ear.<<<
Imagine this scenario:
Homeless Man: I hjsakhfughdghduihuifhguighdv (and various other drunken ramblings)
You: (Sigh)
Homeless Man: WHAT?! YOU MF! I'LL F'ING...(various other obscenities and insane rantings)
That can go on for the whole ride to the station instead of the 2 second cell phone call you're complaining about. But, I'm SURE you knew that already, right?
>>>People might think it's selfish for someone to sit next to them. Then they shouldn't sit down.<<<
People who think it's selfish to use cell phones on trains shouldn't take the train. And there you have it folks, J trainloco pitched a hot one at RTS_2150, and he knocked it right outta tha park! Oh, they're throwing another ball to J trainloco. OUCH! It smashes him right in the face! That RTS_2150 is a real cad, a handsome one though, but a cad nonethless, and I must say I like it Bob.
Me too, Bill.
>>>(Pork's probably going to kill me for saying "I don't think it's fine", but I really don't care)<<<
You must care, you posted it.
And there you have it, a repsonse. Thank you, you've been a wonderful audience.
>>Paranoid, much.<<
Really?
>>Rule of Debate No. 2270: Don't use a stupid argument, then point out said stupidity, it makes you look stupid.<<
Rule No. 7. Shut the hell up when your told to.
>>Obviously the world isn't here to kiss the cell phone users ass either becuase there are a few unreasonable people like yourself out there. But, instead of listening to your incessant rambling, one can pop open his cell phone and talk about that annoying guy on the subway who is screaming like a bitch at a prison everyone time someone opos out their phone, making them better at dealing with the world.<<
Either your blind or just plain stupid. Did I not say that I do not talk to strangers on the subway? Are you paying attention? Apparently not. If your going to debate something, at least do it right.
>>You're right. The nerve of any one even THINKING of working on the subway. You come first. They must all be quiet for the sake and comfort of J trainloco.<<
You are what I like to call incompetent (maybe that word is too big for you. It means stupid). I really said that I don't talk about R-142s. on the subway. What the hell's wrong with you? Pay Attention!
>>Here's what you can do. Walk! last time I checked, it was the NYCT Subway System, not J trainloco's Private Quiet Cars. But, in the 0% chance I am wrong, can any TA workers inform me if their has been a change of command.<<
No shit sherlock. My point was that people don't need to have entertainment on the subway. You don't have to be quiet, but then again you also don't have to chat away on a cell.
>>You know, PRIVATE companies make those soft cushy subway seats we sit on. They do have to be repaired and replaced at tax payer expense. Since TA employees are reparing private work, why not just eliminate subway seating all together!? And those hand rails and straps, private companies make those too. Let's eliminate those and then everyone can just bunch together in one of J trainloco's; NO CELL PHONE, NO SEAT, NO STRAPS OR HANDRAILS, BARE BONES, PRIVATE QUIET CARS. It'd be splendiferous! NOT!<<
Yes those seats are privately made. But the TA buys them. Way I see it, wires in a tunnel will be operated by a private company at public expense so that people can use their private phones to talk about the latest gossip. There's a big difference from what you're saying and what I'm saying. The TA doesn't make money when they send their cars out for re-building don't be a dumbass RTS.
>>Imagine this scenario:
Homeless Man: I hjsakhfughdghduihuifhguighdv (and various other drunken ramblings)
You: (Sigh)
Homeless Man: WHAT?! YOU MF! I'LL F'ING...(various other obscenities and insane rantings)
That can go on for the whole ride to the station instead of the 2 second cell phone call you're complaining about. But, I'm SURE you knew that already, right?<<
Course I knew that. But that's unavoidable, And I don't see how that supports an argument for cell phones. With or without them you'll have that problem. But of course you knew that.
Imagine this scenario:
RTS_2150: Mom? I'll be home in 25 minutes.
Same Drunk: So now what? U too good fo us subway peo..(incoherent)
RTS_2150: But I have a cell phone. Now, drunks can't talk to me!
Drunk: MFer! Don't you know that I'll kick your..(various obsenities for rest of ride)
>>People who think it's selfish to use cell phones on trains shouldn't take the train. And there you have it folks, J trainloco pitched a hot one at RTS_2150, and he knocked it right outta tha park! Oh, they're throwing another ball to J trainloco. OUCH! It smashes him right in the face! That RTS_2150 is a real cad, a handsome one though, but a cad nonethless, and I must say I like it Bob.
Me too, Bill.<<
No, people who don't think it's alright to use cells on trains shouldn't use cells themselves on the train. I didn't say that if people didn't want to have someone sit next to them that they should get off and walk. Think BEFORE you post.
Funny, You didn't hit any 'ball' i threw at you, you merely dodged it by referring to something completely irrelevant. And, No 'ball' you threw at me even came close. You can't call the shots when your not in the lead.
Bob agrees too.
>>And there you have it, a repsonse. Thank you, you've been a wonderful audience.<<
About the worst response I've ever seen. You put your audience streaming out of the auditorium before you even opened your mouth.
Wow, it took you TWO days to respond, and THAT was the best you could muster? I must say, I certainly know who I'm dealing with now. You have to be the most intellectually deprived person I've ever encountered. On the RTS_2150 Response Rating System, that sad response gets a 1/2*. You get the half for using the tiny piece of brain matter that you have to recycle the clever sarcasm I used in my response. I must say I'm flattered and embarrassed at the same time. While I'm flattered that you knew of my superior intelligence and decided that it would be in your best interest to recycle my own sarcasm in an attempt to use it against me, I'm embarrassed at how you've managed to turn such cleverness into ignorance and idiocy only a person as low on the totem pole (or under it) as yourself can do.
Now, for the matter at hand. I was going to respond to you by meticulously tearing your post apart, post by ignorance filled post, but then I didn't feel like waiting a week for your response and then embarrassing you again. Then, I was just going to ignore this piece of trash you call a response as you have already embarrassed yourself by posting such garbage, but that's not my nature. Then, I noticed something; you used a clever, if not painfully obvious debate tactic. When you posted quotes from my original response, you sometimes left information out, and then you responded with silly and incoherent arguments. While this may confuse a normal debater, it doesn't do much for me. It didn't help that such a clever tactic was not suited for someone of your dubious intelligence level and you immediately botched it. So instead of wasting my time responding to you point by painful to read point, I just crushed your malnourished argument with one swift, fatal blow.
I could tell that you were falling apart when you typed a so called "big" word (Note: If you were trying to sound intelligent, a daunting task for you, you should have used large or educated in the place of the Pre-K level word "big." Both would have fit the bill sufficiently.) and then said it was too "big' for me to understand so you posted the meaning in parenthesis. That was silly right there as I'm one of the most well read and well learned persons on this board you insipid buffoon. For you even to post filth such as your response in response to one of my award winning posts is laughable. You have neither the cranial capacity nor the motor skills to go wit for wit in a debate with yours truly. As the old cliché goes, "I wouldn't get into a battle of wits with you because I don't believe in fighting an unarmed man." Or something like that. I'm not much into clichés; I try to stay original unlike some people (that means you).
Well, I'm going to stop now as my advanced education has probably lost you on the first sentence. I'm sure you're staring at your PC monitor, eyes glazed over and a thin string of drool drops from your mouth as you try in vain to grasp the complex (to you) points I've stated. So I'm going to end on this note, I really hope you'll understand it.
Me (RTS_2150) = Winner
You (J trainloco) = Loser
Regards,
RTS_2150
P.S. You suck.
Warning. EXTREME FLAMAGE.
>>Wow, it took you TWO days to respond, and THAT was the best you could muster? I must say, I certainly know who I'm dealing with now. You have to be the most intellectually deprived person I've ever encountered. On the RTS_2150 Response Rating System, that sad response gets a 1/2*. You get the half for using the tiny piece of brain matter that you have to recycle the clever sarcasm I used in my response. I must say I'm flattered and embarrassed at the same time. While I'm flattered that you knew of my superior intelligence and decided that it would be in your best interest to recycle my own sarcasm in an attempt to use it against me, I'm embarrassed at how you've managed to turn such cleverness into ignorance and idiocy only a person as low on the totem pole (or under it) as yourself can do.<<
Damn right it took me 2 days. I'm not here to post immeadiately after you put your peice of shit response on this site. Some of us have lives. We don't stare at the screen, hitting the 'refresh' button every 2 seconds to see the latest post. I did other things. But a well read person such as yourself knows this, right?
Superior intelligence? You didn't even respond to the argument at hand: Cell phones in the subways. And the reason you didn't was because you had the most outrageous arguments that couldn't be supported. The biggest one was raving lunatics on trains. Answer this: How the Fuck does having a phone stop them from babbling and swearing? Why the fuck does one need to have 'entertainment on a train full of tired people? Questions you cannot and apparently will not answer.
By the way: You never placed a footnote for your asterisk. Dumbass.
>>Now, for the matter at hand. I was going to respond to you by meticulously tearing your post apart, post by ignorance filled post, but then I didn't feel like waiting a week for your response and then embarrassing you again. Then, I was just going to ignore this piece of trash you call a response as you have already embarrassed yourself by posting such garbage, but that's not my nature. Then, I noticed something; you used a clever, if not painfully obvious debate tactic. When you posted quotes from my original response, you sometimes left information out, and then you responded with silly and incoherent arguments. While this may confuse a normal debater, it doesn't do much for me. It didn't help that such a clever tactic was not suited for someone of your dubious intelligence level and you immediately botched it. So instead of wasting my time responding to you point by painful to read point, I just crushed your malnourished argument with one swift, fatal blow.<<
What the fuck does this have to do with cell phones on subways? Not a damn thing. You completely ignored some points from my first post. Like when I said that I shut the hell up when I'm on the subway. I don't talk to strangers about redbirds and R-142's. And then you come back in your response saying that people don't want to listen me spouting off propaganda about evil cell phones. What a dumbass. You say that I: Left out arguments of yours. What the hell didn't I respond to? You didn't crush anything right now, xcept your own balls.
>>I could tell that you were falling apart when you typed a so called "big" word (Note: If you were trying to sound intelligent, a daunting task for you, you should have used large or educated in the place of the Pre-K level word "big." Both would have fit the bill sufficiently.) and then said it was too "big' for me to understand so you posted the meaning in parenthesis. That was silly right there as I'm one of the most well read and well learned persons on this board you insipid buffoon. <<
Only dumbasses such as yourself would even try to respond to this. Look at you: trying to prove that your so smart. Now pay attention:
If I was talking to a moron, such as yourself, then why would I use another 'big' word? It would just confuse the person even more. Obviously you know what the word meant. I really thought you knew what it meant too. However, responding to this line in particular proves your stupidity. You have to prove that you do know those 'big' words. Moron.
>>For you even to post filth such as your response in response to one of my award winning posts is laughable. You have neither the cranial capacity nor the motor skills to go wit for wit in a debate with yours truly. As the old cliché goes, "I wouldn't get into a battle of wits with you because I don't believe in fighting an unarmed man." Or something like that. I'm not much into clichés; I try to stay original unlike some people (that means you). <<
This passage here is the biggest crock of shit I've ever seen. Your superior debating skills? Way I see it, this message was an attempt to escape the debate going on. Nothing here even deals with cell phones on subways. You obviously didn't think this out. And yet, I'm the one without cranial capacity. You are the one who resorted to dropping the debate, no? You try to stay original. Right. That explains why you took my 'scenario' idea. DAMN IT RTS, THINK!!!! This amount of prematurely posted points here is enormous.
>>Well, I'm going to stop now as my advanced education has probably lost you on the first sentence<<
Hardly.
>>I'm sure you're staring at your PC monitor, eyes glazed over and a thin string of drool drops from your mouth as you try in vain to grasp the complex (to you) points I've stated.<<
POINTS!? How dare you compare that shitty argument to a group of coherent thought-out points?!?! That was more like a pile of horseshit scanned into a computer and posted online.
>>So I'm going to end on this note, I really hope you'll understand it.<<
>>Me (RTS_2150) = Winner
You (J trainloco) = Loser<<
Never bring a knife to a firefight. You just did that.
>>P.S. You suck.<<
If it wasn't for the other respectable debaters on this site, I would get really vulgar here. But, I respect them too much.
Congrats, it didn't take a week for you to respond. You get a gold star on your dunce cap for that. Your response rates a 1/4* for copying my QCPS, and then trying to sound as intelligent as I with some of your arguments. You see, I am giving you points for recycling my techniques, but you have to make them work. Something you can't seem to do.
For the matter at hand....
Looks like I really pissed you off there junior. I'm sure your hands were flying over every little key as you raced to post your obscenity laced response in the futile hope that I would get upset. No, I just laugh at you, like so. Ha ha. You took the bait. Instead of responding with an ounce of intelligence, you just called me a dumbass throughout and cursed. At least I kept it clean and changed up on the insults every once in awhile. Is dumbass the only word you know? Is that what your dad calls you and your mom? Is that what the girl you like it school considers you? A dumbass? Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. Looks like you've got some bottled up anger inside. You need therapy young man? Don't take it how on us intelligent people. Take it out on people that are at your level, such as snails, amoebas, and fleas.
Now, the reason why I didn't respond to your "points" is because basically, as you have just proved, you are a lost cause. It's not worthy of my time to have to go back and explain every one of my arguments in my original response just so you can keep up. It doesn't work like that. My last response, since you don't understand, was to basically tell you that you are like a tick on the testicle of a rabid dog, worthless. You're not worth debating with in a civil manner. I just love giving you an intelligent whipping and watch you respond with vulgarity and ignorance. I must say it makes my day. I come out looking good since I use a minimum of vulgarity and still easily beat you, and you look bad becuase you use a dump truck load of vulgarity and it does nothing for you.
BTW, many people on here respond to each other in less than two days, in case you've missed that. Are you inferring that they don't have lives due to the timeliness of their response? Mmm? Just wondering.
>>>If it wasn't for the other respectable debaters on this site, I would get really vulgar here. But, I respect them too much.<<<
Too late. You were already vulgar throughout your post. Saying that was like a slap in the face to them. That shows how much you respect them AND this site with your potty mouth. Naughty Naughty J, no cookie for you tonight.
So, what is that....
RTS_2150 - 5
J trainloco - 0
I think so.
Regards,
RTS_2150
P.S. You still suck.
P.S.S. Don't get all vulgar on me. :-)
>>Congrats, it didn't take a week for you to respond. You get a gold star on your dunce cap for that. Your response rates a 1/4* for copying my QCPS, and then trying to sound as intelligent as I with some of your arguments. You see, I am giving you points for recycling my techniques, but you have to make them work. Something you can't seem to do.<<
Points? Ha. You still didn't make a footnote. Look who's talking about recycling. You, recycling my word (celleys).
>>Looks like I really pissed you off there junior. I'm sure your hands were flying over every little key as you raced to post your obscenity laced response in the futile hope that I would get upset. No, I just laugh at you, like so. Ha ha. You took the bait. Instead of responding with an ounce of intelligence, you just called me a dumbass throughout and cursed. At least I kept it clean and changed up on the insults every once in awhile. Is dumbass the only word you know? Is that what your dad calls you and your mom? Is that what the girl you like it school considers you? A dumbass? Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. Looks like you've got some bottled up anger inside. You need therapy young man? Don't take it how on us intelligent people. Take it out on people that are at your level, such as snails, amoebas, and fleas.<<
I used plenty more words than dumbass. Can you read RTS?
No, I don't get re-buffed by girls. Stop thinking that all teens are living your same pitiful life.
No. My dad doesn't call my mom dumbass. Now, this insult was personal, and uncalled for. And, I can think of ones that are much worse, especially in your case. But I won't say them , no matter how low that shot was.
Nice bait. And I thought you were here to debate. Guess I was wrong. You aren't here to debate, merely to instigate arguments with other people willing to fight. I must say that you are good at that.
>>Now, the reason why I didn't respond to your "points" is because basically, as you have just proved, you are a lost cause. It's not worthy of my time to have to go back and explain every one of my arguments in my original response just so you can keep up. It doesn't work like that. My last response, since you don't understand, was to basically tell you that you are like a tick on the testicle of a rabid dog, worthless. You're not worth debating with in a civil manner. I just love giving you an intelligent whipping and watch you respond with vulgarity and ignorance. I must say it makes my day. I come out looking good since I use a minimum of vulgarity and still easily beat you, and you look bad becuase you use a dump truck load of vulgarity and it does nothing for you.<<
Obviously another attempt at luring me into another tirade against you. No, I won't do that again. But, how am I not worth debating in a civil matter? a number of other subtalkers agree with my ideas. One person even st
>>Congrats, it didn't take a week for you to respond. You get a gold star on your dunce cap for that. Your response rates a 1/4* for copying my QCPS, and then trying to sound as intelligent as I with some of your arguments. You see, I am giving you points for recycling my techniques, but you have to make them work. Something you can't seem to do.<<
Points? Ha. You still didn't make a footnote. Look who's talking about recycling. You, recycling my word (celleys).
>>Looks like I really pissed you off there junior. I'm sure your hands were flying over every little key as you raced to post your obscenity laced response in the futile hope that I would get upset. No, I just laugh at you, like so. Ha ha. You took the bait. Instead of responding with an ounce of intelligence, you just called me a dumbass throughout and cursed. At least I kept it clean and changed up on the insults every once in awhile. Is dumbass the only word you know? Is that what your dad calls you and your mom? Is that what the girl you like it school considers you? A dumbass? Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. Looks like you've got some bottled up anger inside. You need therapy young man? Don't take it how on us intelligent people. Take it out on people that are at your level, such as snails, amoebas, and fleas.<<
I used plenty more words than dumbass. Can you read RTS?
No, I don't get re-buffed by girls. Stop thinking that all teens are living your same pitiful life.
No. My dad doesn't call my mom dumbass. Now, this insult was personal, and uncalled for. And, I can think of ones that are much worse, especially in your case. But I won't say them , no matter how low that shot was.
Nice bait. And I thought you were here to debate. Guess I was wrong. You aren't here to debate, merely to instigate arguments with other people willing to fight. I must say that you are good at that.
>>Now, the reason why I didn't respond to your "points" is because basically, as you have just proved, you are a lost cause. It's not worthy of my time to have to go back and explain every one of my arguments in my original response just so you can keep up. It doesn't work like that. My last response, since you don't understand, was to basically tell you that you are like a tick on the testicle of a rabid dog, worthless. You're not worth debating with in a civil manner. I just love giving you an intelligent whipping and watch you respond with vulgarity and ignorance. I must say it makes my day. I come out looking good since I use a minimum of vulgarity and still easily beat you, and you look bad becuase you use a dump truck load of vulgarity and it does nothing for you.<<
Obviously another attempt at luring me into another tirade against you. No, I won't do that again. But, how am I not worth debating in a civil matter? a number of other subtalkers agree with my ideas. One person even stated so. Are they Ticks on a dog's testicle too? MY MY, what an enormous vocabulary you have there.
My points were valid. Yours weren't. You are simply dodging the bullet, AGAIN. What's the Matter RTS? Afraid to debate? Or is it that you don't have any ideas to debate? Your stereotypical view of the subway is wrong.
You are right on one thing. I should not have responded in the manner in which I did. I apologize to you, and to all the other responsible subtalkers on this site who didn't deserve that childish, impulsive and foolish outburst.
And, in my first rebuttal, I didn't respond with vulgarity, and yet you still sat here and fired off round after round of insults. They were all valid points. Disprove them, if you can.
>>BTW, many people on here respond to each other in less than two days, in case you've missed that. Are you inferring that they don't have lives due to the timeliness of their response? Mmm? Just wondering.<<
No. But i'm saying that I had lots of other things to do. There are also a lot of people who only come here once or twice a week.
>>Too late. You were already vulgar throughout your post. Saying that was like a slap in the face to them. That shows how much you respect them AND this site with your potty mouth. Naughty Naughty J, no cookie for you tonight.<<
Naughty Naughty J, no cookie for you tonight
Is this what girls say to you?
And, your one to talk about a potty mouth. As I recall, your little pow-wow with SeveN had you saying things like 'Shit' and "ass, glistening with fresh diarrhea". So, watch yourself.
And, I was referring to how much WORSE I could have gotten.
>>So, what is that....
RTS_2150 - 5
J trainloco - 0
I think so.<<
In what, insults? Oh yeah, you definately lead in that catagory. But, it's still too early to call, and as far as the Cell phone debate goes, it's still the first inning, and the ball's in your court.
So, chief, make your move.
>>P.S. You still suck.<<
P.S. Yeah, I know I do. Big deal fat hairy deal.
Well, how can I stay mad at a guy who aplogizes...I suppose I'm sorry as well. But, you did jump all over me for my opinions though in your response to when I posted this thread. This wasn't one of my trademark unprovoked attacks.
I don't really feel like a debate tonight. I'll respond to your stuff tomorrow.
>>Well, how can I stay mad at a guy who aplogizes...<<
So, you did get mad.
Uh, let me rephrase that...
How could I keep bickering with a guy who apologizes?
>>Uh, let me rephrase that...
How could I keep bickering with a guy who apologizes?<<
Mmm hmm. Right.
Well, call me a can opener becuase I have decided to re-open this can of worms. Sure, I was supposed to respond to this Monday, but who cares? I really didn't feel like debating over cell phones during the week, but now I'm bored and anything goes. So, here we go...
>>>Either your blind or just plain stupid. Did I not say that I do not talk to strangers on the subway? Are you paying attention? Apparently not. If your going to debate something, at least do it right.<<<
Flaming will get you know where young man. Especially when it does nothing to prove your point. I was actually poking fun at you in the original post because you do seem unreasonable when you discuss the usage of cell phones. I never said you actually talked to strangers in reality. Are YOU blind?
>>>You are what I like to call incompetent (maybe that word is too big for you. It means stupid). I really said that I don't talk about R-142s. on the subway. What the hell's wrong with you? Pay Attention!<<<
I never re-stated you did talk about R-142s on the subway. That's something you threw in there yourself. Another useless argument filled with a useless flame.
>>>No shit sherlock. My point was that people don't need to have entertainment on the subway. You don't have to be quiet, but then again you also don't have to chat away on a cell.<<<
Who are you to tell people what they do and dont need to do on the subway, if it's perfectly legal?
>>>Yes those seats are privately made. But the TA buys them. Way I see it, wires in a tunnel will be operated by a private company at public expense so that people can use their private phones to talk about the latest gossip. There's a big difference from what you're saying and what I'm saying. The TA doesn't make money when they send their cars out for re-building don't be a dumbass RTS.<<<
I don't see anything wrong with that. It's a public expense just to ride the subways in the first place. You honestly think that a cent of that won't go to maintaining those lines in the tunnels? Besides, that will be an added conveneince for many, and a nuisance to some. But, there are plenty more nuisances besides cell phone users. And I don't understand the point of that last sentence at all. Duh, the TA makes no money when they send their cars to be re-built. It COSTS money. So what the hell does that have to do with cell phones?
>>>Imagine this scenario:
RTS_2150: Mom? I'll be home in 25 minutes.
Same Drunk: So now what? U too good fo us subway peo..(incoherent)
RTS_2150: But I have a cell phone. Now, drunks can't talk to me!
Drunk: MFer! Don't you know that I'll kick your..(various obsenities for rest of ride)<<<
Your scenario makes no sense at all because you totally missed the point. I was trying to give you a scenario which would last longer and be much more annoying than a cell phone call. You were complaining that people would be calling someone to tell them they were on their way home, to the station, or etc. This would take a minute or two at the most. Harrassment from vagrants can last the whole trip. That was my point. You just inserted a cell phone into your scenario without even knowing the significance of mine before copying it.
>>>No, people who don't think it's alright to use cells on trains shouldn't use cells themselves on the train. I didn't say that if people didn't want to have someone sit next to them that they should get off and walk. Think BEFORE you post.<<<
Didn't you say that anyone who think's it's selfish to sit next to them should not sit at all? Therefore, by your own logic, people who think it's selfish to use cell phones on the train, shouldn't take the train. Now, had you said, people who think it's selfish for someone to sit next to them shouldn't sit next to OTHER people themselves, it would be different. But, you didn't say that, you made it a general thing. As did I. You can't defend a generalization of your own with a specific point after someone has countered your generalization.
So, before you give advice telling people to think before they post, perhaps you should grasp the argument at hand before you attemp to debunk it.
That's about it. I probably have numerous spelling and grammatical errors, but I don't care. I'm too lazy to go over this post and this isn't one of my better arguments either. Still, I think it was enough to prove my points. Also, you can see I took great care in not flaming you or even making a sarcastic comment. I'm asking you to do the same, but, I don't expect it.
Regards,
RTS_2150
Way I see it, wires in a tunnel will be operated by a private company at public expense so that people can use their private phones to talk about the latest gossip.
WRONG. The TA will be paid many millions of dollars, by a private concern (several are bidding), for the right to install these lines. In addition, annual payments will be made to the TA for the continued rights to these lines, and these lines will be maintained at the expense of the private concern making those payments. This will generate a significant amount of income for the TA over the life of the contract - depending on how high the bidding goes, it could easily top $5 million per year, although I suspect that $2 million is a more realistic figure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> Not everyone wants to talk to the wierd smelly guy sitting next to them. <<<
Is that why no one starts a conversation with me on the subway?? :-)
Tom
instead of talking about how crappy R-142s and technology are in general and how Redbirds and five cent colas are the best thing since sliced bread!
Sliced Bread? Bah! You young whippersnappers have it easy! In my day we had to cut our own bread, and walk to school through ten feet of snow, uphill both ways.
It snows in Arcadia? Ohhhh I couldn't resist
Peace,
ANDEE
Right. You forgot that you also walked barefoot on broken glass and instead of riding /in/ the subway trains you rode under them. And you usually had to share your seat with a rat.
Dan
Rock & Roll is here to stay !!
My marathon EastCoast trip is only a week and a half away.
Monday the 26th I am flying into Newark. Tuesday I'm taking the train to Philly, riding Philly transit all day (MFL, Norristown HSL, Patco, Subway-Surface), then back to Newark. Wednesday I'm going to be all over NYC (Probably right the 7, Sea Beach, Jerome Ave El, 63rd St, JMZ...) and also doing some NJ (Hudson-Bergen maybe). Thursday I'm going to Boston on the Acela. Thursday and Friday I'm doin the "T" party before going back to Newark on the Acela Friday night. Saturday is some more NYC/NJ and just hangin'. Sunday I fly outta Newark for the WestCoast.
So...NEone wanna hook up post here. I'd kinda like to meet some of the other NYC-area railfans that are my age (I'm 17) and of course wouldn't mind driving the R9 either.
I'll be headed to Philly real soon to do research for my third book on the Els. I've seen the El there on occasion and am curious as to what type of reception I'll receive when I haul a camera and notepad into one of the more "hostile" neighborhoods. Chicago was a near death experience and I'm not anxious to get that close to the Grim Reaper again without a better understanding of what to expect.
Eric Dale Smith
Siemens,
I would love to railfan with you in Boston...I am 22 years old, if that is ok. Feel free to e-mail me privately and we'll work out the specifics. -Nick
I may be in the minority but to me the most attractive El cars were the Multiple Unit Control Cars (M.U.D.C's) that were the staples of the old Manhattan elevateds and which were immortalized in the 1933 version of King Kong. The Transit Authority fell asleep at the switch when they wiped out all of them when they closed the Manhattan portion of the Third Avenue El in 1955. The Transit Museaum reproduced three old open gated Brooklyn El cars so I wonder if it would be feasible to do the same with the M.U.D.C's. After all, they're the most famous of all El cars.
Eric Dale Smith
But unlike the B-Q cars in the museum, these would have to
be total reproductions. The transit museum fleet does not
include any Manhattan elevated equipment.
Sadly not a single one of these cars was preserved either in the MUDC version or their original gate version, at least I know of none. So it would have to be a built-from scratch idea.Even though they were a brief part of my life on rails they are my favorite el cars, anywhere.
King Kong was actually studio stuff. The car number was 4779 which was a steel Low-V and seeing the train coming down what I'd guess was meant to be 6th Ave, with only 2 tracks...look at the headlight, they never were that bright.
OTOH the MUDC's had roles in many other movies. Mostly only brief scenes. Dark Corner was probably the best, they were also in Kiss of Death, The Doctor and the Girl, Tales of Manhattan, Port of New York,O Henry's Full house and others.
Yes, it was the 6th Ave. el. In fact, you can see the 53rd St. turn dead ahead just as Kong appears and starts wreaking havoc.
I just checked out the CTA website, and they have an online store
selling transit related merchandise, and I noticed that they sell an
O scale "L" car train set (one car powered, and 3 unpowered). It
didn't say if track was included, but despite its pricey $299.00, I
ordered myself a set. Is CTA ever thinking of releasing models of
the 6000 Series (PCC) trains???
Also, speaking of models, although SEPTA sells Corgi PCC trolley
models, are they planning to sell models of BSS/MFL cars and/or the
Silverliners???
That sounds like the MTH set from the 2000 Vol.I catalog. The set #30-2175 was catalog priced at $199.95 for the set with the horn and $299.95 for the set with proto-sound. Neither set comes with track or transformer.
OK, everyone, creativity time.
If the cast on (the orignal) Pelham 1-2-3 had cell phones, what lines would have you written into the script?
For example...
"Mr. Blue! I'm ON THE TRAIN! YES! PELHAM 1-2-3!"
You're a sick man...Rico
Peace,
ANDEE
Might go something ... like this ... (turns away from the audience, swipes hair, turns back around) ...
Skwczzsss ... Hello? ... sssskkkwwwwwccczzz ... (no signal) ... followed by a number of obscenities whereupon the perp shoots the phone.
Seriously, I imagine it won't be that difficult to enable cell service given that the tunnels are already lined with "leaky transmission line" for the radios on the trains. However, just as I remember the radios on the trains, there were a lot of places where the segment gaps were that you couldn't raise Satan on the radios in some spots. A diplexer could easily add 900 MHz service but the higher PCS frequencies will be an adventure with standing waves and other impairments in the tunnels if they use the existing cables in the tunnels. Should be an amusing exercise ...
The hooker:
"Bev.. go on and cancel all my appointments..
I'm here on the train with a few stiff pri*ks
standing before me.."
The merged Brown/Orange line reroute, from Midway to Kimball will continue through the weekend. By Sunday, a canopy over the "L" at Randolph and Wells should be finished, with a test train scheduled late Sunday. If everything is OK, normal service to the Loop would be expected.
The closure of the west and south legs of the Loop elevated forced the detour. I haven't heard any nicknames for the combined Brown/ Orange route. Since both lines operate with 3200 series cars, the change was easy to make, just cut the Orange trains back to six cars to fit the Brown line platforms.
All this came about when the city inspectors deemed a downtown skyscraper dangerous and closed off two streets one which happened to have the Loop "L" over it. The CTA cancelled downtown Purple line service and beefed up Red line trains with extras. The so-called "gap" trains were stored on the south side subway incline for pm NB rush.
Incidentally, the "Ali" movie train loaded equipment this evening on the incline, next to the gap trains, getting ready for the subway shoot tonight.
David Harrison
When the subject of merging the Brown and Orange lines first came up on this board several weeks ago, I proposed calling the merged line "Burnt Sienna".
At first there was the usual train announcement and sign confusion...what to say and when to change the signs from Orange to Brown. NB Orange Line trains even carried the neutral "Chicago" signs, then changed to Kimball (Brown Line). Next week this should all be history and you're right about the board discussion...at least there was no question on which legs of the Loop the trains would go.
Davd Harrison
What if this thru-routing becomes permanent ? Run alternately up/down the East and West sides of the Loop ? It would be like thru-routing Southern Divison BMT trains to the Bronx alternating 6th Avenue and 8th Avenue.
We could call this thread, "I Can Dream, Can't I." Personally should the thru route come into being after the Brown Line platforms are lengthened, I prefer the twice around the Loop. Knowledgable patrons would soon learn which train to catch, immediate departure versus seat, for instance and all sides of the Loop would be served without that dreaded shuttle.
A strong proposal for the Purple Line involved routing it into the State Street subway and then up the old incline onto the Green Line with a turnback at the 37th Street middle track. Probably vetoed because of too much dead travel.
And that would have crimped the "Ali" filming (See 2nd Post)
David Harrison
"A strong proposal for the Purple Line involved routing it into the State Street subway and then up the old incline onto the Green Line with a turnback at the 37th Street middle track. Probably vetoed because of too much dead travel. "
Can't they be turned around after Roosevelt, seems like there should be an chance around there.
Of course this would all be
Let me get this straight: The brown line has 6-car platforms, but the orange line has less frequent service. Why not just run 6-cars all the time and give the orange line more frequent service, thus having the same capacity per hour on the orange to begin with?
BTW, I think the merged line would have to be Orange. In my mind, Brown is and always will be a crosstown-circulator color, like it is in Moscow (the city with the most kick@$$ subway in the world)
Since you think Orange should be a radial color and Brown should be relegated to a crosstown line you'll have at least 2 problems with my Chicago-Fantasy map, vive le difrence!
I meant to try and figure out if the CTA would lose money by running 25% more trains on the Midway line, but saving 7-8 min in the loop for those two lines- which would be the case if they ran on two sides of it and didn't do none of that 1 1/2 stuff. But I have out of town company and am going on vacation soon, and you prob have good numbers so you can figure it out.
Turning trains with regular service going on is not that easy. The turning train has to stop, that would delay trains following. Traffic in the opposite direction has to be monitored. Most crossover interlockings have time delays built in for safety. When there is a disruption and there is no service in that opposite direction, its easier.
Therefore any regular turnback in service would best use middle track where the train can wait. Thats 37th street on the Green or all the way south to 63rd on the Red.
Roosevelt has only the "Y" which was a turnback before the Howard/Dan Ryan days. Then there is a crossover at 15th which was used for the "Ali" movie train, but the headways were plus 15 minutes then. We won't even mention going up the ramp to 17th St interlocking on the Green/Orange.
David Harrison
They should have pulled the two brown-and-orange 4000-series cars out of mothballs for the occasion.:-)
This merger of the brown and orange lines whether it is a good idea or not is illegal. The crews(motormen/operators) from the opposite sides of town, were never trained to operate on those routes. But once again, our fearless leader of atu 308, Jerry Williams, the weakest union president in our 98 years of existence, gave his blessing.
As I recall, Midway-Kimball through operation was originally part of the plan for what is now the Orange Line. If traffic levels on the two ends were at least approximately balanced, it still would be a good idea. At present, I suspect that the Yuppie-Heaven Brown Line does have far more traffic rush-hour than the Orange Line, and the 6-car platforms on the Brown, vs. the eight-car platforms on the Orange, are a problem. Possible solution: shorter-interval all-day through operation with trains of two to fou cars r, supplemented in rush hours by six-car Kimball-Loop and eight-car Midway-Loop clockwise short turns; plus re-institution of the clockwise Loop shuttle in off-peak hours. Back in the early Seventies I spent many a happy once-a-month Friday evening just riding round and round the Loop on the Shuttle, waiting for the CERA meeting at the Midland Hotel to open.
And possibly, for traffic-balancing purposes, even the occasional Purple-Orange (gevalt, mine exquisite aesthetic sensibilities!) through run?
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Did they perform the Ali shoot last night?
I thought there were some things that had to be shot in the Loop as well...hopefully this sequence of closures doens't put too much of a hamper on it.
Being a C/R I am in favor for Removing all transverse cabs.I have 2 reasons for this
1) I like looking out the railfan window
2) While I am working I meet twice as many women with a Redbird than
with a 62 or 142.
Plus crossing cars to open your offside is not difficult ,People like seeing the conductor in their car not locked in a box
Let's get our priorities straight! Passengers need to meet women far more than do studly MTA workers. Besides, why take the time and money to remove transverse cabs when they should be decorating the outsides of trains with friendly animal shapes. "Hey! Here comes a rhino on the 'F'!"
;) Andrew
What is the general consensus of T/O's and C/R's when it comes to full cabs?
As a railfan I don't like them, but there are other reasons too.
You can't pass through a full width cab. Also trains with full width cabs seem to give T/O's freedom to do things they shouldn't be doing.
On the R46 F trains for instance, I've seen guys eating and smoking, even reaching over for a pack of cigarettes from their coat while the other hand is on the controller.
In a traditional cab in older trains, there's isn't as much room, and smoking is more easily noticed (by smell) from passengers. There's just enough room to sit down and operate the train (which is what a T/O is supposed to do and only that).
It's also harder for T/O's and C/R's to hide when there is a problem.
It's just my opinion full width cabs aren't passenger friendly, as well as railfan friendly.
One thing I can tell you is alot of T/O's smoke, mostly on the F and R lines. Not just seeing it, but smelling it as well standing by the door.
its true, can anyone tell me where this C/R went, this lady who worked F train in the morning, she was short with blonde hair early 50s, she was great always joking around, and she gave nostalgic tours everymorining on the F, explaining subway history (culver history) other subway facts, my favorite joke used to be when passengers held the doors and it was crowded on the F , she would say over the PA "4 million people ride NYCT subways everyday, i guess the other trains are empty this morning except mine" I used to be late for school because i wanted to ride with her further. Before almost every station she would talk about a historical event related to it.
I'm sure the "we ain't no fun anymore" MTA probably canned her for "inappropriate diatribe" ... back in the 1970's, if a car was equipped with a PA system, many on the railroad would outdo anything you'd hear on morning drive time radio, free of obscenities of course but generally interesting. I'd often say, pulling into Bedford Park southbound on the rare occasion that I'd get a 32, "Bedford Park Boulevard next stop, where the CC train will be leaving just as we open the doors" ... many of the other guys on the railroad would also have a fast entertaining quip where there was time to get it in along with what you were SUPPOSED to say and the geese usually loved it.
Today's Tunnel Vision, Randy Kennedy's column in the NY Times, is about C/R announcements and embellishments, which are soon-to-be replaced by automation. I found it amusing.
my man !! stop making sense !!! KEEP THE RAIL FAN WINDOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>> Plus crossing cars to open your offside is not difficult <<<
And no where near the fun of mounting the steps between cars to open the doors. (Not to mention the impression that made on the women.)
Tom
Heh. Sure did work for me way back when. :)
Let's see. Redbirds, R-62s and R-142s. You must be X-tra in the A division. If you want a railfan window, I suggest that you move to the B division where the R-32s and R-42s will be around for a while. Better yet, I suggest that you re-order your priorities or relocate to another system. The transverse cab is here to stay at the MTA. Besides, I think that you should be performing your duties properly. I happen to have a rule book in front of me and nowhere does it say that one of the duties of a conductor is to promote his off-duty social life while on duty.
WOW! I don't know how many C/R's would agree with you. Most C/R's favor the R62 transverse.
I myself have 2 favorite car types on the A Div.
As a Railfan I love the R36's and as a Conductor I like the R 142.
Probably a matter of what you got used to on the railroad. When I came in as a conductor on the concourse line, it was R1/9's with a few 32's on it. So at the time, full width jobbies hadn't yet been done. On the prewar cars, you didn't use the cab for door operations though on a long express run, it was useful to sit down in ... so normally you'd end up standing there through the run, ready to play car monkey for the stops and in doing so you'd end up chatting with folks while keeping an eye up and down the train while you did so.
Seems as though it's gotten pretty easy to hide from the geese these days. I imagine with the full width cabs, you can go through an entire day with no encounters of the geese kind at all. But back in those days, you'd have a LOT of contact with "the customers" whether you wanted it or not. :)
i am married & very happy with my beautiful wife ! ( the rest of your post i agree with 100% !! ).....
............??????????????????
same to U ??????????????.......................................!
[Plus crossing cars to open your offside is not difficult ,People like seeing the conductor in their car not locked in a box.]
This last point is the only one I agree on. I think the public would have a better sense of safety when they actually encounter the C/R as he conducts his duties (in non-transverse cabs).
On the flipside of course is that on older equipment (non-transverse cab cars) the C/R's personal safety is at greater risk from both the equipment and the riding public while transfering between C/R positions.
BMTman
You took the words right out of my mouth.
Forget it pal! You should know that it was taken out so that OPTO can be ran anywhere if the TA wants!
I'm looking for copies of news clippings of the NYCTA train collision involving the revenue collector at 103 Street. This collision was caused by the following train's T/O operating on a wayside automatic block signal indicating a proceed, or a green light. Also, any articles from the August 15, 1994 train derailment blaming cause to the failure of a lockout mechanism designed to prevent a track switch from throwing while a train is on its circuit would help too. Any help is appreciated. Please email to blightliner@hotmail.com.
Thanks
I might take the t into boston today. Or tomorrow?
Who cares?
I just want you all to know that I will be taking more photos of the t.
Oh, wow. That's great. Let us all know how it turns out.
Amtrak retired all of its turboliners the would be useful for acela regiona service. (but not the ones that caught on fire).
Not all of them are gone - Supersteel of Schenectady is redoing some of them - one was already out on the rails for a while but has been held hostage by CSX and Guilford, preventing it from being moved from a siding at Rensselaer back to the Supersteel plant after a shakedown cruise on the Hudson line ... it just moved a couple of days ago.
They'll be operated by NYS DOT and will NOT be running NEC. They're for the Empire Corridor only. They did a NICE job on the one I saw too. You'[ll start seeing them again this summer.
Offhand I'm not aware of any Turboliner fires. At least one of CN's United Aircraft TurboTrains did burn, just before being turned over to Amtrak; but the ANF-Frangeco and Rohr Turboliners apparently did not have this vulnerability.
The Rohr sets are being rebuilt, and should be back in Empire Corridor service this year.
I wish the UA TurboTrains had been more successful; I rode them on CN Toronto-Montreal, and Amtrak New York-New Haven and Washington-Parkersburg, and found them a great deal of fun, especially because of the domes on the power cars.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Amtrak had a nasty habit (still do) of not properly cleaning the filters. Enough diesel grit built up along with blowby and they'd light up. I have no idea of how many were lost, but I have seen at least one burned out hulk at the Rensselaer shops a couple of years ago.
One of the French ones burned up big time in NYP some years ago. The frame was sagging in the middle. They were grounded from that time on.
Well, that makes two then. That one got towed to Croton North and was probably chopped up. The one I saw just had burn marks but the body seemed to be largely intact. All comes down to the quality of maintenance ... then again, I remember the FL-9 fleet. So many of those burned up over the years too ... same problem. Dirty filters and then one day, wham zoom, three alarms.
How big a deal was/is it to clean the filters? I assume it's not as easy as changing the air filter in a car but is the filter on a Turbo or FL-9 buried so deep in the bowels of the engine that changing it is a major ordeal?
It does require taking the sides off and loosening a lot of bolts. It requires locomotive shop work but is part of scheduled maintenance. The problem was either there weren't enough people to do it, laziness or some other reason. Fact is it wasn't getting done and as a result, a lot of locomotives burned. And if you've ever been on an FL-9, those are some mighty tight quarters to begin with.
look at the subtalk archive and select 1-199 and then click on "amtrak turboliners".
Don't ask me how late, because I gave up train chasing at 1am only to hear over the radio, "We're going back north to Clark Junction to turn from North to South and a decision will be made whether we need another pass." And that was the fifth pass, I believe.
Yes, they did film the "Ali" scenes in the State Street subway using the three PCC "L" cars borrowed from Illinois Railway Museum. The cars deadheaded south from Skokie Shops at 2 pm before the rush and tied up on the old incline next to the ground level emergency exit. throughwhich the movie company carried in their hordes of people and equipment.
The cars looked great, ran well, and after the regular headways lengthened, whoever was motorman had the Cineston all the way over running through stations. The usual route was north to Clark Junction for turnback and south to 15th street xover. They went to the incline for lunch???(at that time of day/night) and at the end I imagine.
David Harrison
Hey, I'm back from my trip to São Paulo, Brazil. I finally rode on the Metro there for the first time. Sao Paulo is like my second home, so I never did things like take pictures of the city or see the different things there, so this time was a unique trip for me.
Here's a system map (opens in a new window) you can refer to, so you see what I'm talking about. Here are some photos I took of the system. The photos suck, but you can get the idea. The SP Metro is about as close to perfection as any subway can get. Every subway system in the world should run like this one. It's fast, frequent, clean, safe, and people use it. I rode only the blue and green lines, from Jabaquara, to Paraiso, to Consolação. I got on at Jabaquara after I took a trolleybus to a bus terminal at that station (more about the buses further down). Jabaquara is the southern terminal of the blue line, it's two track with side platforms. The next train was arriving on the southbound side, so I went to that platform. The train pulled in, and less than a minute later, the train reversed and we were off in the opposite direction. I've never seen a turn around that fast. Crossing over the to the northbound track, we hauled ass over it, and then continued to fly down the tunnel to the next station. This subway is fast. The stations from Jabaquara to Vila Mariana are all underground with side platforms and have the same design. After about three stops from Jabaquara, the train was already near crush capacity, and this was only at 2:00 in the afternoon. For such a small system, 49.2 km of route miles, it handles a shitload of passengers. 486 million a year!! You can imagine that it gets pretty crowded, and I bet that the paltry fare of R$1.40 ($0.70) covers all the costs of the system.
The SP Metro is also the cleanest system I've ever been on. I could lick the floor and probably only taste Lysol. This is thanks to the brigade of custodians at every station. A private company is in charge of cleaning, and they do a thorogh job, even cleaning the advertisments! Also the headways between trains is very short, about 1-2 minutes, maybe 3 minutes at the most. I've mentioned about the cars earlier this week, but I'll talk about them again. The blue and green lines use different, but compatable rolling stock. The blue line cars are older and were built by Budd, so those are probably the original cars. The blue line cars are coupled in pairs, and appear to be about 67-70 ft long. The trains are only 6 cars long, that's how long the stations are. The end cars have a blue face to them and are clearly inlfuenced by BART. The ends of the middle cars are white, so they look even more like BART cars. The green lines cars are similar to the blue line, but are clearly different. They have different front ends, they are the cars like the one pictured here. The cars on this line seem to be all singles, so that they can mix 'n match them. Only the first and the last cars have the blue face, and the middle ones all have steel faces. The sides of both type of cars are stainless steel and kind of look like R38's, with the corregated metal that goes halfway up. The blue line cars, since they are slanted at the ends, also make them look like the R40 slant as well. You can't walk between cars, because there are no end doors whatsoever. But that's OK, because, the system feels so safe, there's so need to switch cars.
At the two stations where the Blue and Green line are together, the two lines never actually share the same tracks. They run paralell to each other at Ana Rosa, and at Paraiso, the northbound Blue train is on the upper level. On the lower level, the southbound Green line has its own side plaform, and the southbound Blue and northbound Green share an island platform. I thought the coolest station I went to was Consolação. It looked like two bored out tunnels and the middle of the island platform was where they overlapped. Too bad I didn't take any photos of it.
OK, now about the buses. São Paulo has the most extensive bus sytem I know of. According to my 2001 O Mapograf Guia (a São Paulo street altas) there is a total of 819 lines! How does that compare to NYC? There's no telling how many people ride them, but it's probably over a billion, beacause every bus I saw had standing room only space, no matter what time of day or night. Also, many bus lines are run by private companies for profit, so the ridership is definatly there for them to make a profit. The buses are very frequent and there are so many of them. It's not uncommon to see five or more buses, all different lines, waiting at an intersection, all full of people. The EMTU Trolleybuses was the only buses I rode on. I can't find a map online anywhere. Here are my photos. They operate on their own dedicated ROW. Since not all of the routes are electrified, diesel buses are used as well as electric ones. The system is shaped in a "Y", with the bottom terminal in São Bernardo (Terminal Ferrazopolis), and the other two ends are Terminal Jabaquara, and Terminal São Mateus. There are 6 other terminal at points along the "Y." All of the EMTU terminals also have regualar bus terminals next to them. Terminal São Bernardo is at the middle of the "Y." The trolleybus I took from São Bernardo to Jabaquara was route #288.
I think that the bus system is the reason that the SP Metro is so succesful. There are 26 bus terminals around the city, some of then are at Metro stations. Some stations, like Pedro II on the Red line have huge terminals. According to O Mapograf Guia, that station has a whopping 67 bus lines intersecting there. Jabaquara has 21 bus lines that use the terminal there.
Check out my other page about the leaning towers of Santos, a beach city about an hour east of São Paulo on the coast. It's pretty cool to see them. Like the leaning tower of Pisa, the engineers didn't know the ground wasn't as stable as they thought. They are currently trying to fix that problem.
Oh yeah, a couple more things about the subway cars. The tracks are wide guage, probably the same width as BART. The third rail is underrunning. The interiors look wider than 10 ft and they also look like they would fit right at home in NYC in the interior style used. The seating is arranged with bench and longitudal seating, like an R68. There are four doors per side, but the walls aren't tapered. The doors are really wide, so people have no trouble entering and exiting. The trains have a longer station dwell time than other subways, maybe around 30 seconds long. The trains are ATO and OPTO. The T/O doesn't have to look out the side becasue he or she has mirrors and TV monitiors to see if the doors are clear.
Actually, the trains are often completely automatic according to the CD I have about the Sao Paulo Metro. They can also be run like how it is in DC or Atlanta (ATO with manual door closings and announcements) or totally manual.
Where you got that CD from? I would like to know where can I find it at least?
Dominick Bermudez.
My relatives in Rio. I don't know where they got it. I believe it was produced by the Metro itself.
Hey Rob: I absolutely LOVED your posting on your trip to Sao Paolo (how exactly did you do the enye thing over the "a"?) Unfortunately for me, the closest I've ever gotten to visiting Brazil is wining and dining in the ironbound section of Newark :-) But I look forward to someday visiting Rio, and not on the lam or anything like that (J.K.!) No, but seriously, I've always thought the spoken Brazillian Portugese language was very beautiful, It kinda sounds to me like a hybrid of Spanish and French. Is it? Anyways, I really enjoyed then pixs and the commentary, take care. -Peace and GB, Thomas:-)
I just went to "Character Map" under "Accesories" in the Start Menu of Windows 98. It was just copy and paste from there. Rio is a cool city, I've been there a couple of times (no topless women on the beaches :-(). I'm maybe 70% fleuent speaking, can read enough to get by, and can't write that much. Since Portuguese is derived from Latin, like French, Italian, etc, it's very similar to all of those, maybe more similar to Spanish than the others. I'm not a language expert, but Portuguese might be a more evolved version of Spanish. Makes sense, since Portugal is bordered only by Spain. It sounds way better than Spanish, not that I'm biased or anything.
Hey Rob from Atlanta:
Wussup? Yeah, it sounds more fluid and cooler when one speaks it than does Spanish, but given Spain's border with France, I'm more inclined to believe it probably is a mixture of the two. And you are correct, Portuguese is in fact like all the other romance languages, descended from Latin. As the Roman Empire broke up and it's various constituant peoples migrated away to other regions, they brought with them whatever their particular dialect of Latin was and it became blended with whatever the indigenous people of that particular region were already speaking, and each of the earliest romance languages were born and have slowly evolved over the centuries into their current forms.
On a lighter note, I'm real disapointed about the no topless beaches issue.>:-( Travel agents and mass media have lied to us about this for years, apparently!! But seriously, can an ordinary person afford to spend a week or two there, and do they speak English so that I might be understood? I ask these questions as I now consider it a potential vacation spot. Does the US Dollar go very far there, or not? What's the current rate of exchange there, and is it fairly politically stable and safe for Americans to visit there (terrorism, robbery, etc.)?
Write back, as inquiring minds wanna know!!!! -Peace and GB, Thomas:)
The beaches can be topless, but I don't know why there aren't any women doing that sort of thing. I've been to maybe 10 different beaches in Brazil and no toplessness, dispite everyone saying that it's common.
It's hard for me to answer about being a tourist since I'm never a tourist in Brazil, I stay with my Aunt there. I even have a Brazilian passport, in addition to an American one. I assume a regular person can afford to go to Rio, since it's a popular destination. I would suggest going thru a travel agency or a tour group for the best experience. I really can't speak for Rio (I'm a Paulista), but I wouldn't count on many people speaking English, except at the airport. But I could be wrong about that.
The US dollar will go very far in Brazil. Especially with food, it's soooo cheap, and VERY good (the best food in the world, IMHO). The current exchange rate is about R$1.00=US$0.49. A good rule of thumb is just divide the price by 2 to get the dollar amount.
It's not the safest place in the world, but as in NYC, try not to look like a tourist in the wrong places and you should be fine. Remember, the seasons are reversed, summer here is winter there. I've been to Rio in their winter, and it's still hot, so it's not much to worry about.
Cool. Thanks man. -Peace and GB, Thomas :-)
Check out my photo tour of MARTAs unbuilt rail lines If you're inrested in abandoned subway stuff and the IND second system, like myself, you might enjoy this. I was pretty excited when I found out that MARTA had some abandoned stuff.
I've been in Antwerp,Belgium a few times and ridden their electirc transit network which consists of trams on the surface and in a subway system.The subways are fairly deep underground and there is apparently a lot of mileage in unused tunnels.There is some reluctance of the average citizen to utilize the subway.Don't ask me why.Except at rush hour the stations are almost deserted and eerie to anyone used to crowded public transport.The part of the system which is in operation is a nice ride-the trams make pretty good speeds.
When travelling on a Brighton-bound Q train, I was looking out a clear railfan window and saw a green light between DeKalb closing in on Atlantic just before the bridge and tunnel tracks merge into one before Atlantic. The T/O kept the train below 10 MPH and kept slowing down before the light. Then all of a sudden the car shaked slightly as if we went up and down a small hill or bump on the rails. As soon as we felt the bump he/she wound it up.
But I don't think it was a bump as being the reason, because of it was, then why didn't they slow for the rest of the 10 cars to clear the bump?
Why ask us? Why didn't you knock on the door and ask her? Why didn't you tell her that she is operating a 600 foot subway train, not a TA bus! Geez!
good point
Beginning Monday, March 19, all downtown Broadway N/R trains will run express while all uptown trains will be making local stops again.
According to the MTA website, rehabilitation work will continue until 2003 after service is restored this June 24. This is all in preparation for restoration of Manhattan Bridge service this summer. Among the tasks listed on the site includes restoring "historical architectural station details", which I assume meant the old BMT tiles among other things. I find that a bit ironic since the project is supposed to "modernize" those stations (probably good news for the nostalgic buffs here?). I hope the MTA is really on schedule with this as we've been waiting a long time for full Broadway service to be restored.
I've also walked past the Canal St BWay express station. Everything here looks complete and ready to go.
This will begin at 12:01 AM on 3/19.
The work involves removing the 1970s style "refrigerator tile" and restoring the traditional BMT style of tile such as was done at Canal and Cortlandt.
What is being done is rearranging the layout to speed entry into the system such as wider stairs, relocated booth, etc. You can modernize while keeping or restoring traditional appearance.
The 1970s type of tile was simply put over the traditional tile as I have seen at Union Street. Now all we need is Rector and Brooklyn Fourth Avenue Local stops.
The uptown booth will be open at 12 midnight (2400)on 3/18/2000.
I took the subway from Elmhurst to Flushing. I took the R from Grand to 74th, where I had to backtrack to Woodside due to a G.O.
The Flushing bound ride ran smoothly after Woodside, but after Junction on the upper level there were red signals and a train in front of us. After 10 minutes of waiting the conductor announces the train ahead of us went into emergency just before Willets.
After another 5 minutes the train ahead began to move.
As we decended from the upper level (the view is great) there were track workers and a GT at red, signals after were yellow. The trip arm was down.
All in all about at an 18 minute delay. The trains must have really backed up behind us, and there was no way to bypass it with the E/B local track closed.
He had taken two prescription drugs containing codeine and had taken cocaine for oral surgery pain relief. His train crashed into the end-of-track barrier injuring 22 people. He was fired from his job.
The criminal charge was "reckless endangerment"; traffic laws don't apply to light rail T/O's.
Story in Saturday's Washington Post.
He had taken two prescription drugs containing codeine and had taken cocaine for oral surgery pain relief. His train crashed into the end-of-track barrier injuring 22 people. He was fired from his job.
The criminal charge was "reckless endangerment"; traffic laws don't apply to light rail T/O's. Story in Saturday's Washington Post.
The article's not clear - did he take the prescription codeine plus some (presumably street-purchased) cocaine? If that were the case, the MTA should never rehire him. But if he took only prescription stuff, and had gotten medical clearance to return to duty (I would assume that the MTA has a medical department), then he should be rehired immediately with back pay plus interest.
Nope. He's gone. Threw away a 27 year career. His and the subsequesnt bang-bang at BWI (that operator was sacked as well) made the penalties a lot stiffer. If you take a prescription drug that impairs and try to work by hiding it (which Sam Epps did)- out the door.(If you report it you take a non-operating job until you are off the prescription drug.) Illegal drugs, you get a two-week suspension (no pay) and out of the safety sensative job for good, but you still work for the MTA. And, do it again - Bye-bye forever.
Criminal charges optiional.
If you take a prescription drug that impairs and try to work by hiding it (which Sam Epps did)- out the door.(If you report it you take a non-operating job until you are off the prescription drug.) Illegal drugs, you get a two-week suspension (no pay) and out of the safety sensative job for good, but you still work for the MTA
So if you're operating a train under the influence of drugs, you're better off if you used cocaine than if you used a legal prescription drug. Does something not make sense?
Welcome to the world of agencies that are political subdivisions, where antigravity rules. Yes, that IS what they're saying in their own little pointy-haired, zero tolerance little world. And it's more universal than you may imagine.
Does something not make sense?
Of course not. Why the penalties are even different for illegal drugs is beyond me. Maybe some governmental mandate.
Better off in that you aren't sacked (this was the sop for the Union), but you can't work an operating position (bus driver, LRV Operator, Subway T/O, Station Agent, Shopman, Dispatcher). This deprives the employee of the real money-making jobs. There was already a requirement when Epps had his accident that employees had to report to their supervisor that they were taking a medication that would possibly impair. He didn't advise his supervisor, in fact nobody knew what he had been taking until after the accident. Random drug teating is standard in all safety-sensative positions, now it's much more regular than random. It is expected that everybody will now get tested at least once a year. Supervisors have also been better trained in detection of possible drug problems.
Drug issues aside, I find it a piss-poor excuse for the prosecution in this case to file a major felony charge against someone simply because they can't technically charge a TO with conventional moving violation offenses. You don't send someone to PRISON cause you can't for some reason send them to driver's ed or city JAIL.
-Peace and GB, Thomas :-)
That's why we have judges, juries, and verdicts. Otherwise, filing the charge would be all that's required to send someone to jail, prison, or whatever. And, IMHO, the judge did the right thing according to the law - which doesn't mean that Epps was OK in what he did, simply that he did not violate the law as written. From what other posters have said, he did violate his employer's rules, however, and must suffer the consequences of that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I noticed several years ago while riding on a rerouted "B" train that some of the stations on the former BMT Broadway line in Manhattan were set up to handle 10 car trains of 67' Standards. Were there any other stations within the ex-BMT lines set up to handle 10 car train of 67' Standards?
BMTJeff
I noticed several years ago while riding on a rerouted "B" train that some of the stations on the former BMT Broadway line in Manhattan were set up to handle 10 car trains of 67' Standards. Were there any other stations within the ex-BMT lines set up to handle 10 car train of 67' Standards?
I don't think so, not on the Broadway Line either. 10-car R-type trains, yes, after the stations were extended. Many BMT stations couldn't even originally handle 8-car trains of Standards--and even the extensions for that train length often resulted in very (sometimes frighteningly) narrow platforms at the front and/or rear of trains.
Right. On the original Broadway BMT, before the platforms were extended to handle 600 foot trains, at some stations, an 8 car standard would have the first set of doors at the edge of the platform (of course the motormans cab would be already out of the station) and the last set of doors in the 8th car would be at the platform edge as well. It was a similar tight squeeze for the D types, with a full length train being four 3 car units.
Were 8 car Standard ever run ?
I know the Eastern Division had 8-car stop markers for Standards, and that on the Sunday eve of the Nov 1967 changes, the 15|Jamaica Local was running 9 car consists of R16's. I saw them from my apartment window in Woodhaven.
9-car R units on the Eastern Division?
Eastern Division stations only allow 8 car R (60') units. Are you sure it was 9 cars? Some people in that ninth car would have been stepping into air 50' above Jamaica Avenue when those doors opened.
Actually, most Eastern Division platforms are 550' in length and could handle 9 car trains (540').
I DID notice that a few times, they were doing some work at Fresh Pond Road, at it looked like they were expanded the station at the southern end. Maybe this was part of those longer stations you mentioned.
Anyone remember this work being done?
The Eastern division BMT stations were originally built to this length (or rebuilt, in the case of those el lines which were converted to heavy steel car use like Broadway).
Yes, but the work at Fresh Pond Road looked like a extension from the original station structure end. This was a few years back, I will take a peek next time I am in Glendale/Maspeth.
Yes I am sure. Weekends/daytime were 6 cars then. My parents came back from the store and said they counted 9 cars. I couldn't believe it, so I looked out the 3rd floor apartment window 2 blocks from Woodhaven Blvd station on 94th Street, and yes, they were 9 car trains one after the other. I never found out why. 8 x 67' = 536' 9 x 60' = 540'
The eighth car on the Jamaica Avenue stations was always clear of the stairs and nothing hung out over the rear station mezzanines.
Interesting. We used to have 10, 8, 6 and 4 cars on the BMT southern division...never 9.
>>We used to have 10, 8, 6 and 4 cars on the BMT southern division...never 9.<<
That was BMT southern. Where they didn't have to worry about platform length. BMT south is one of the best cared for 'divisions' in the NYCT. It always gets the new cars (since unification). The only New car It didn't get was R-16, R-38 and some of the R-40/42's (noticeably all went to BMT eastern [xcept R-38])
You cannot have "new" (75') MUs because the Eastern Division cannot handle them.
Specifically, the tight curves between Fulton and Jamaica.
Did you ever see ten car trains of BMT Standards or were they 60' 6" cars such as the R 1,4,6,7,9,10,16,27,30,32,38,40,42s instead.
BMTJeff
You could theoretically run 10-car trains of BMT standards on the IND. Well, at least on express routes, anyway.
They did run 11 car trains of R 1/9s on the IND at one time.
BMTJeff
I wish I could have seen a MU lash up of Standards in my lifetime, I was born after the last of the ABs were retired.
The 10 car MUs were of R units.
I do remember seeing antiquated stopping markers for "8" "6" and "3" years ago (NOT "R" unit stop markers).
The markers that you are talking about are those that were probably used for the BMT Standards. Some of the markers might have been used for the "Triplexs".
BMTJeff
Right. These were old BMT type markers, dark blue background with a faint white numerial.
Are these old BMT markers still found at many of the old BMT stations or are there just a few of them remaining.
BMTJeff
Long since gone on the West End. I should have pulled some off when they were doing the re-hab work.
Might still be some on 9th Avenue lower level and the Sea Beach.
I believe a 3 car BMT marker still exists at DeKalb Ave on the Coney-Island bound side, the side used by trains coming over the Manhattan Bridge.
--Mark
I know that they exist on the Sea Beach, one on the Culver at Ditmas, and on 9th Avenue lower level.
I saw a lot of 6-car trains of BMT standards on the Canarsie. I rode on them regularly during their final two years of service. Since I didn't care for them at the time, riding on them was cruel and unusual punishment for me. Their doors operated smoothly and quietly, and their brakes gave off a "tchhhhhhhhh" sound just as they came to a full stop.
Many people liked the BMT Standards. They were often comfortable cars to ride in. There is still a three car set of BMT Standards in operating condition which are used for fan trips on occasion.
BMTJeff
Any ideas as to when they will be out for a fan trip? What is the process for that?
Keep in mind I was a 10-year-old whippersnapper when I first saw the BMT standards in 1967. Back then I thought they were the most godawful cars I'd ever seen. No signs on the ends and three sets of doors per side. &#$@$##@!!!! Over the years, I've come to appreciate them for what they were: solid, durable, and downright indestructible. What can you say about a subway car that could split a switch, take out a row of I-beams, and walk away with scrapes and bruises, a broken light bulb at worst?
I certainly (soitanly?) wouldn't mind going for a ride on the Nostalgia set of BMT standards now. Not to mention the Triplexes. I never had a chance to experience them.
I spent my elemenary schoold years in the 1960's on the Jamaica Line, but I respected and viewed them as senior citizens. I hated the R1-9's, especially when they came to the Eastern Division.
I loved the R-1/9s. Luckily, I still remember riding on them on the IND. The funny thing is, I rode on them more times on the Canarsie in 1969-70 than all of my IND rides on them combined. I have a side sign box in the garage as well as bulkhead route and destination signs complete with mechanisms. The sign box is normally signed as a D while the bulkhead signs are set to A and Wash. Hts 207th St. Not to mention three additional side sign mechanisms with BMT curtains.
There is still a three car set of BMT Standards in operating condition which are used for fan trips on occasion.
These have not been in operating condition for years. However, they are in various states of restoration. The last time they were out under their own power was with the Nostalgia Train trips in the early 1980s.
--Mark
Were 8 car Standard ever run ?
8 car trains of Standards were "standard" consists on most of the BMT southern division lines in rush hours during the 1950s-60s (prior to replacement by R-types):
#1 Brighton Express - generally ran trains of 4 Triplexes (D-types)
#1 Brighton Local - 8 Standards
#2 4th Ave. Local - 8 Standards
#3 West End Express - 8 Standards
#3 West End Local - 6 Standards or 5 SIRT cars
#4 Sea Beach Express - 8 Standards or 4 Triplexes
Bankers specials - 6 Standards
-- Ed Sachs
What were the consists on the extended #7 Brighton-Franklin expresses and #7 Franklin-Nassau specials?
AFAIK the Franklin-Nassau specials were mostly BMT standards, with a large white dot on the front pantograph gate to identify it as such. There is a photo of Shoreline's 2775 heading up such a train in Subway Cars of the BMT.
Brighton-Franklin trains used mainly Triplexes carrying #7 signs.
Brighton-Franklin trains used mainly Triplexes carrying #7 signs.
Triplexes were used on the Brighton-Franklin trains only for the last couple of years of operation, c. 1961-63. At that time it was a Saturday only service so that trains to Manhattan could run express in Brooklyn (in those days, the Saturday expresses ran local in Manhattan).
They started using Triplexes on this run with the Jan, 1961 service changes which swapped north terminals for many of the BMT southern division services. With the change, the Brighton Locals ran to Astoria and the 4th Ave. locals ran to Forest Hills weekdays, 57th St. nights and weekends. Also, the West End Express replaced the Brighton express to Astoria during rush hours.
Saturday Brighton services was the "Brighton Express" running from Coney Island to Astoria, express in Brooklyn and local in Manhattan, using equipment from the weekday Brighton locals (mostly R27s), and Brighton-Franklin local service from Brighton Beach to Franklin Ave. using equipment from the weekday Brighton expesses (Triplexes).
Prior to Jan, 1961, the Saturday Brighton-Franklin service ran from Coney Island and used Brighton local equipment (Standards).
-- Ed Sachs
I stand corrected. Those last two years were what I must have been thinking about.
I remember when they were extending the platforms at Union Square (northern end) and 34th St. (southern end).
Actually, no station built could handle 670' trains, IND or BMT. I beleive 8 car trains were the maximum length for B types.
I recall reading somewhere that they were running 11 car trains on the IND Queens Blvd. line for a time but these would have been cars such as the R1/9s and any others R-10,16,27,30,32,38,40 and 42 which were 60'6" in length.
BMTJeff
They were 11-car trains of R-1/9s. You'd have to tack on an R-10 or R-16 to a 10-car train of married pair SMEEs.
Oops! I should have realized that the R-27,30,32,38,40 and 42s were married pairs. My error.
BMTJeff
I have often wondered if the original IND stations (those built prior to WWII and which are long enough to accommodate 11 60' cars) were designed originally for trains of 10 67' cars. Anyone have any ideas on this matter?
-- Ed Sachs
I highly doubt it. Most pre-war IND stations were built before unification looked like a reality, and I do not think the BoT thought to incorporate Standard cars at that time.
Some of the express stations on the IND were built to handle 11 car trains.
BMTJeff
If the IND were contemplating a 67-foot car, that would seem plausible. They even considered an articulating car such as the Triplex, but decided against it. Several designs were considered before the R-1 was decided on.
Greetings, all...
I found an internet cafe near my hotel, so I thought I'd check in and let everybody know I'm having a great time here in London. I'll probably end up posting a longer message when I get back, but here's a couple quick observations about the city and particularly the Tube:
It's been raining since I arrived, and is forecast to continue doing so until the morning I leave (go figure). Talk about a huge letdown... Please do something about this, Todd!!!
The Tube is very cool. So far I've done most of my riding in the Piccadilly, District, Victoria and Circle Lines, including going all the way around the Circle. I've also hit the Jubilee Line extension and the Docklands Light Rail so far. The headways on the Tube are at least as good as New York's, although there is no express service and the whole system shuts down around Midnight.
There are no trash cans anywhere; they were removed do the possibility of IRA terrorists placing bombs in them. People simply toss their trash wherever, and sooner or later it is picked up. It feels a bit strange tossing your trash on the street in a city as beautiful as London. So far I just can't bring myself to do it; it's like spitting on a church floor. I figure I'll just carry all my trash back to Chicago with me and then toss it on the street there.
Most Tube trains sound surprisingly like NYC subway trains, particularly R-62's. The glaring exception is the Jubilee Line, which has trains with the most bizzaire-sounding AC traction motors I have ever heard.
The food halls at Harrod's are manna from heaven. Nothing I have ever seen anywhere even compares to that. Upon my first visit to NYC I remember noting that Macy's and Bloomingdale's flagships stores were each a bit of a letdown for me; Marshall Field's flagship store on Chicago's State Street blows both away. Harrod's blows Marhall Field's away.
The Canary Wharf station on the Jubilee Line is a modern architectural masterpiece. The platforms and mezzanines are indeed huge, as noted on SubTalk recently, but I happened to see them at evening rush hour and it looks like the extra capacity is not wasted at all.
Speaking of capacity: Tube trains are tiny, and always crowded. IRT trains look like DC Metro trains in comparison. I find myself getting somewhat claustrophobic while riding them, but the trains are, however, very comfortable with cushioned seats and a nice interior design. One can easily see why the trains are so small, though... Look outside the window between stations, and you'll see the tunnel wall rushing fast just a few inches beyond on either side.
I already knew about the Canary Wharf station because it had been extensively published in architectural trade journals and I knew it was designed by one of my favorite architects, Lord Norman Foster. I was pleasantly surprised, however, when I happened to be changing trains at Westminster and noticed the station there. Like Canary Wharf, it is very modern and high-tech looking, with various escalators, walkways, mezzanines and structural members occupying a huge open space. This place could easily double as the interior of an alien spaceship in a Star Trek movie. Very cool! Anybody know what architect designed Westminster?
Speaking of stations with architectural significance, it's nice to see a place where the government is willing to invest the resources into creating public architecture of lasting cultural value. Most public architecture in the US is a disgrace in comparion. I shudder to imagine what Londoners must think about us when they ride the NYC subway or Chicago L and compare it to the Tube back home.
McDonald's food is just as mediocre here as it is in the States.
The mainline rail stations are incredible urban spaces. I'm staying just a few blocks away from Victoria Station (which is just across the street as I type this, actually) and I peeked my head inside Liverpool Street Station earlier today. I hope to hit the rest of them before I leave.
Crossing the streets here is incredibly dangerous for somebody used to cars driving on the right side of the street. I've had a couple of close calls by instinctively looking to the left as I step off the curb only to almost get nailed by a car coming from the opposite direction. You never realize how you take some things for granted until the tables are turned.
On a simlar note, not since first grade have I felt like such an idiot while trying to count change. This evening my dinner came out to £4.17, so naturally I pull out a £5 bill and then, because I knew I was carrying around a huge amount of pocket change, tried to count out £.17. Counting out $.17 in US currency is easy because you instinctively know which coins are worth $.05, or $.25, etc. Not so here; I've got the £1 and £.50 coins pretty much figured out (£1 is gold and very fat, £.50 is about the size of a US half-dollar coin and has seven sides), but the rest are still meaningless to me unless I actually stand there and read the text printed on it. Another small example of how you take things for granted until you find yourself in a new situtation.
Well, that's about it for now... I've only been here two days but I'm already in love with the city. There's maybe five or ten cities on this earth that every person must simply visit at least once before they die, and London certainly ranks in that list.
My time on this coputer is running low, so I'll have to head out... I'll be sure to post more later.
Cheers,
-- David
London, UK
I guess I'll have to be sure to make up a Tube banner once I get back and have access to Photoshop. :-)
How much smaller are the cars on the tube trains when they are compared to the cars on the IRT subway lines?
BMTJeff
Here's a picture
Is that PADDING on the seats? Can you pass between cars?
Yes, it's padding, all of the tube trains have it; and no, you can't pass between the cars on the Underground or the Paris Metro...
You aren't supposed to pass between the cars on the Underground but it can be done if the cars you are passing between have blind ends facing you, for example, it is possible to pass from a nondriving motor car and a trailer car and through the blind end of a driving motor car. If there is a cab in the way, the locked set of cab doors prevents you from passing through to the next car.
Mike, have you not been to London ? From your posts I gained the impression you had. You must pay us a visit some time.
Simon
Swindon UK
I spent the day there one about 6 years ago. I don't remember padded seats and I didn't try to pass b/t cars. I do remember Minding the Gap and wooden escalators though
A day is not long enough. You must conme and see more.
Simon
Swindon UK
You will still be Minding the Gap but the wooden escalators are being replaced (have already been replaced?). They were the cause of the King’s Cross fire a few years ago.
Jersey Mike:
From the picture that was posted by Pork which he took from the website the seats on the tube trains in London have PADDING!! I don't think that padded seats would survive on the New York City subways because the hoodlums would tear them to pieces. The cars however appear to be smaller than the IRT cars. I wonder if the London tube cars are quieter than the New York City subway cars?
BMTJeff
Philly has padded seats on the new M-4 rolling stock - I didn't think they would last, but so far it seems to be working out okay.
Very very noisy underground. Jointed track, heavyweight cars and metal tunnel walls. Very quiet outside though. Jubilee Line extension is quieter I seem to recall.
The Piccadilly Line didn't seem to be that noisy when I rode on it 1978. Certainly nothing like Chicago's Dearborn and State St. subways, that's for sure.
IIRC the cost of deep bore tunnelling is huge, which is why the cars and tunnels are so small. OTOH, the Metropolitan, District, and Circle Lines use larger rolling stock because they were built by cut-and-cover, for the most part. I know the District Line threw me for a loop the first time I rode on it. I kept waiting for it to go way, way down, which it didn't.
Normal conversation speaking level is definitely not possible in tunnel, but the surface lines would be quieter. Most of my tube experience is with older trains (up to 1972 stock). I will make some conscious comparisons next time I spend a day in London.
Small bore tubes are cheap(er) and they make sense: why have an eight feet tall passenger compartment when virtually all people are less than 6ft 4. But the vast caverns on the Jubilee Line make the tiny trains feel very out of place. Definitely an anachronism.
Max: Do you recall when they were using Tube size stock on the Highbury and Islington Branch of the Northern Line? Its a wonder they didn't lose the train.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Good question. I was about eight years old when the Moorgate diasater happened and I think that the changover to British Rail was in the next two years after that, so lets say somewhere between 1974 and 1976. I never got to ride on the trains, but one of the reasons apparently why the accident was so nasty was small trains in large tunnels.
Max Roberts
Colchester, UK
I remember seeing some rolling stock on the District Line in 1978 which dated from the 1920s. It's really cool the way they cast the year of manufacture on the doorsills.
How much smaller are the cars on the tube trains when they are compared to the cars on the IRT subway lines?
"All Underground cars of tube and surface type are a little over 50 feet long. The overall length of the new Piccadilly and Central line cars, for example, averages about 52 feet, while the new Metropolitan line cars measure 53 feet over the end panels. The tube cars are, however, somewhat narrower and considerably lower than the surface line cars, the maximum width over the body being 8 ft. 6 in. for the new tube stock and 9 ft. 8 in. for the new Metropolitan stock, while the corresponding maximum heights above the running rail are 9 ft. 6 in. and 12 ft. 1 in. respectively."
From "How the Underground Works", P. E. Carbutt, London Transport, 1966.
Except for the headroom the tube cars are about the same size as the IRT and the Metropolitan cars are shorter than the BMT/IND cars.
Isn't the distance between the roadbed and door-level ("platform height") on the D.C. metro quite a bit shorter than on the New York subway? It always seems so when I'm standing on a Metro platform, especially after living in NYC. I could be wrong. Anyone else have this impression, or the facts, for that matter?
Bah humbug, I'm back.
But I sure had a swell 3 weeks there.
A few responses for David:
>>>It's been raining since I arrived, and is forecast to continue doing so until the morning I leave (go figure). Talk about a huge letdown... Please do something about this, Todd!!!<<<
Remember, you're in Britain. You shouldn't be so surprised.
>>>Speaking of stations with architectural significance............I shudder to imagine what Londoners must think about us when they ride the NYC subway or Chicago L and compare it to the Tube back home.<<<
Believe it or not, but Londoners love the NYC subways compared to the tube. I can't figure it out, but then again I haven't been stuck in a major tube delay yet, though I was in a bit of a crush on the street level when they closed the Oxford Circus station at rush hour. Man, that station is a madhouse.
>>>McDonald's food is just as mediocre here as it is in the States.<<<
True, but where else can you get the Big Mac Deluxe with FOUR beef patties. Mmmmmmm, I can feel my arteries hardening already.
>>>Crossing the streets here is incredibly dangerous for somebody used to cars driving on the right side of the street.<<<
Watch yourself, I've been there 3 times and I still have my share of close calls.
>>>On a similar note, not since first grade have I felt like such an idiot while trying to count change<<<
You're not gonna get used to it on this visit. Just make sure that you dump all of your change before you leave London. You can't change it over in the US, you'll get stuck with it.
A couple of things:
A "hole-in-the-wall" kebab joint called Taza located on Queensway is a must go (Queensway station-Central Line). Their food is out of this world, and it meets the Zman criteria: if a rinky-dink spot has got a long line, their food has got to be out of this world.
If you're reading this in one of the orange "easy everything" internet cafes, watch your stuff, people will steal your bags while your'e not looking.
The best breakfast joint is a little tea shop called "The Muffin Man" (High St.Kensington station-Circle Line). Make a left when you leave the station (there's only one way out), and then make another left at the very first block, the tea shop is on the second block on Wrights Lane. If the Boots store is open, cut through it as a shortcut, walk straight out then make a left. You won't be disappointed.
I'll type a detailed report tomorrow on my visit.
McDonald's food is just as mediocre here as it is in the States.<<<
True, but where else can you get the Big Mac Deluxe with FOUR beef patties. Mmmmmmm, I can feel my arteries hardening already. DOUBLE Big Mac, eh? Can a Triple Quarter Pounder with Cheese be far behind? They should include a voucher for a discount on a angioplasty with that one!
I'm thinking about a trip to London this year (or whenever I get my passport; they're still working on it) - thanks for the tips!
Stations I would like to see are Redbridge and Gants Hill on the Central Line, also OVAL (I hear that's their version of Chambers Street!), Elephant & Castle, Bank (their version of South Ferry with no gap filler), Kennington (can I ride through the loop?), Hampstead (the deepest?), Moorgate, Regent Street, Baker Street.
wayne
aht about a ride on our two express lines Piccadily and Metropolitan 70mph express here (well sometimes). No tunnels though or railfan windows.
Simon
Swindon UK
I certainly would prefer rides like those you describe than to go through the underground stations. And I've had the good fortune to ride the Piccadilly express on its ROW several times. Much reminiscent of New York's Brighton line.
Don't forget the Docklands Light Railway: No cabs at the front, and two tunnels.
If you like architecture, add Sudbury Town, Southgate, Chalk Farm, Uxbridge, Cockfosters, and Brent Cross to the List. LT museum produces a map showing all of the listed buildings.
Tell me more about Chambers Street. I have never noticed much about Oval when using it. Also, interested to know what attracts you to Moorgate. The station or the site of the crash?
Max Roberts
Colchester, UK
Chambers St. on the Centre St. subway has become a magnificent ruin, on the same scale as the Colosseum in Rome or Ellis Island before the main building was renovated. It is a shadow of its former self, having been at one time the premier BRT/BMT subway station.
I have looked over it several times now and cannot see a way back apart form total re-construction. I have been trying to find some photos to show what it looked like in better days. Can anyone help ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Doesn't sound very much like Oval at all to me, which was never a palace.
>>> It's been raining since I arrived, and is forecast to continue doing so until the morning I leave <<<
Be thankful you got the good weather for this time of year.
>>> not since first grade have I felt like such an idiot while trying to count change <<<
Be thankful that they switched to the decimal system from the old system:
4 Farthings = 1 Penny
12 Pence = 1 Shilling
2 Shillings = 1 Florin
5 Shillings = 1 Crown
20 Shillings = 1 Pound (sovereign)
21 Shillings = 1 Guinea
It was difficult to determine what the American equivalent was when a taxi driver said "That will be a half Crown guvnor," (or someone else you met said "That will be 10 Guineas -- in advance") and once you did determine the equivalent, determining what coins and bills added up to correct amount.
Tom
What do they call their coins now?
I know it's a simple 100p = £1
What about ha'pence (2 farthings), tuppence (two pence) and trupence (three pence)?
>>> What do they call their coins now? <<<
Pense. There are 100 pense to a Pound. They no lonlger have half penny coins. The new abreviation for pense is p as in 25p. The old abreviation was d as in 6d. I am not sure what denominations the new coins are, or what nicknames have evolved for them.
Tom
Tom, if I can correct you. It is pence. Whilst it is pence the common term is Pee:)as in I have 25Pee. I know of no nicknames for the coins apart from quid for the pound.
Simon
Swindon UK
That's boring.
What denominations are available, and are they the size of American and Canadian coins?
Pork, without checking the change in my pocket the demominations are,
1P, brass coin, approc 15mm dia
2p brass coin 22mm dia
5p silver coin about 10mm dia
10p silver coin about 20mm dia
20p silver coin seven sided about 18mm dia
50p silver coin seven sided about 25mm dia and a bit thicker than the rest.
£1.00 brass/gold colour coin, aboou 18mm dia thicker than rest and heavy.
£2.00 bi metal brass/gold coin about 25mm dia ( i dont see many of these)
£5.00 note
£10.00 note
£20.00 note
£50.00 note
Simon
Swindon UK
The 10p coin was about the size of a US half dollar (or perhaps a silver dollar) when Britain adopted decimal currency. The 1p coin was about the size of a quarter. Back in 1978, one- and two-schilling coins were still in circulation and were worth the same as their 5p and 10p decimal counterparts in terms of face value. I saved examples of each and can dig them out and look them over.
Yes the 10p and 5p coins changed some time ago to half their size, perhaps to reflect the lower value :)
Simon
Swindon UK
And now they'll all be changing again with the adoption of the Euro :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We will have to wait and see. Makes it easy for everyone doing a tour of Europe.
Simon
Swindon UK
Speaking of stations with architectural significance, it's nice to see a place where the government is willing to invest the resources into creating public architecture of lasting cultural value. Most public architecture in the US is a disgrace in comparion. I shudder to imagine what Londoners must think about us when they ride the NYC subway or Chicago L and compare it to the Tube back home.
David, you will be surprised to hear from a Londoner (well I actually live in Edinburgh) that I was most impressed with the L, the World Trade Center in Chicago, and various other skyscraper buildings. The public architecture seem to be well-maintained, and classical in design in the US. Although they are more willing to try new things here, experiments often fuck-up resulting in eyesores. For example, the Purcell Rooms on the Southbank of London. It's a lump of concrete. I bet you that they won't allow that on the banks of the Chicago River. I like Chicago, and whilst I don't hate London, I don't think much of it either.
Lexcie
Crossing the streets here is incredibly dangerous for somebody used to cars driving on the right side of the street. I've had a couple of close calls by instinctively looking to the left as I step off the curb only to almost get nailed by a car coming from the opposite direction. You never realize how you take some things for granted until the tables are turned.
Many street corners in London have "Look Right" stenciled on them for that reason. Furthermore, are not you suposted to look BOTH ways before crossing the street? Did your mother teach you anything?
The mainline rail stations are incredible urban spaces. I'm staying just a few blocks away from Victoria Station (which is just across the street as I type this, actually) and I peeked my head inside Liverpool Street Station earlier today. I hope to hit the rest of them before I leave
UK stations can't hold a candle to 1900-1940 US stations. The #1 reason...you can't heat an open train shed. Brrrrr! #2, they are usually so old they have gone right past cool old and into lame old.
The big problem was that while US RR's were still in the wood age the Euro RR's were building great stations out of iron and stuff. When all thse wooden depots eventually burned down the US roads built great masterpieces (Chicago, NYC, Cincinatti, Cleveland, etc, etc) while the Euro stations were still functional and were not replaced. The result is A: Poor intermodability (ie no integrated suburban level, main line level, PATH level, subway level etc), B: Poor seperation between tracks and waiting areas (ie you have to wear your big thick winter coat in the food court) and C: Poor engineering due to the non-devolopment of steel and reenforced concrete construction.
The Jubilee line runs 1996 Tube Stock, which is assembled by Alsthom-GEC (a name we're familiar with) but consists of components manufactured in Spain (carbodies), Canada (doors and controls) and France (trucks [bogies] and motors).
Did you know that none of the LU stock (either tube stock or subsurface stock) is air-conditioned?
wayne
David (and others heading over to London and Paris):
Some additional combination architectural and transit things to do while in London and Paris:
Visit Sir John Soane's Museum. It is located in Lincoln's Inn Fields, around the corner from the Holborn Tube stop on the Piccadilly Line. Soane was a Surveyor to the Bank of England.
Check out the closed Kingsway Tram Tunnel entrance, located in the middle of the street in front, and a little north, of the Holborn Tube station entrance (Kingsway becomes Southampton Row).
You can see the conduit slot in the middle of the tracks. Power was supplied via this slot instead of overhead wire. The same system was used to power the trams in NYC and DC.
South of the Holborn station, on Kingsway, is a ramp for cars to enter the old Kingsway Tram tunnel, which curves under Aldwych and the Strand until it ultimately exits under Waterloo bridge at the Embankment.
Just west of Holborn is Convent Garden. The London Transport Museum is located in the south east corner of the plaza. After your Museum visit, hit the Shop and get a copy of the Paris Metro Handbook, by Brian Hardy (Third edition; 1999; £9.95). Good resource to plan your Paris Metro trip. The London Transport Official Handbook (1994; £7.95), and the Docklands Light Railway Official Handbook (Third edition; 1994; £7.95), are good companions as well. These are all published by Capital Transport. Compliment them with a copy of the London Transport Railway Track Map (£1.75), which is a leaflet version showing track maps of both tube and surface lines of the Underground, including the Docklands. Closed/abandoned stations are also listed. The shop takes both credit cards and cash.
In fact, tourist sites, hotels, underground/metro ticket vending machines and other major museums, cafes, shops all take credit cards. Supplant your credit card with cash for small purchases withdrawn from an ATM, or "cashpoint", using your ATM card. The ATM cash will be in the local currency, so the "100" on the screen in London means £100 will be delivered to you in £20s, £10 and £5s (and ±$150 will be deducted from your bank account at home). Don't use your credit card in an ATM, as you will incur an *instant loan* (labeled on your credit card bill as a "Cash Advance"), with hefty fees and interest charges.
A short distance to the north of Covent Garden is the British Museum. Be sure to check out the Reading Room, which is surrounded by the new Great Court (Foster and Partners). While there see the Elgin Marbles, the Rosetta Stone, The Magna Carta, and the edifice itself. Many rooms have been restored. There is/was a display of architectural models of the new Great Court in the East wing. (It was there last Nov. 00). The Museum is free.
If you want to view some of the not so great architecture of the 1960s, walk past the Brunswick Shopping Center on Marchmont Street, just across Bernard St. from the Russell Square Tube. It's one of those concrete edifices housing a shopping mall, with concrete apartments stacked on top. The idea was that everything you needed was at hand — housing, shopping, car park. This project was ripped on by Prince Charles as appalling in execution. (He was correct.)
Nearby the tube station is the Hotel Russell, which is wonderful, both by day and night.
Go to St. Paul's Cathedral (Central Line: St. Paul's) and just sit and look. Look up at the dome, look at the altar, look all around and soak up the atmosphere, look at the damaged arch where the German bomb fell but failed to explode, look, look, look at this architectural masterpiece. A feast for the eyes.
Something completely different is the Tate Modern, a reuse of the former Bankside Power Station on the south bank of the Thames. (Tube: Southwark) The enormous 500 ft. long Turbine Hall is truly amazing. (Transit side note: there are only nine parking spaces at the Tate Modern; all are Handicap stalls. They encourage visitors to arrive by public transport!!)
Connecting St Paul's and the Tate Modern is the Millennium Bridge, designed by Foster and Partners. The bridge however, is still closed, after being open for only three days, due to swaying while under load. More details and drawings are on the website.
The National Gallery in Trafalger Square is fascinating inside and it's FREE!.
The Victoria and Albert Museum (Tube: South Kensington) is the world's largest museum of the decorative arts.
Some interesting Underground stations are:
You have already seen Canada Water and Canary Wharf on the new Jubilee Line. Pretty impressive.
South Kensington on the Circle Line. The street level station entrances still have brass Art Nouveau signs for the Metropolitan and District Railways. The shopping arcade, also at street level, has been in existence from the days of the Metropolitan and District Railways.
Gloucester Road and Baker St. on the Circle line, have been restored to their original 1800s "look". And they look great! The side alcoves used to open at the top to allow engine smoke to escape. The Baker St. station transfer corridor to the Metropolitan platforms has been refurbished as well.
Paddington on the Circle Line shows very well how the original surface lines were in a deep cutting, with spaces between the buildings to allow smoke to escape.
The Wapping Station on the East London line. You can see the first tubes that were hand-dug under the Thames in the 1840s by Brunel. First opened for pedestrians; rail tracks were added later in the 1860s.
The Greenwich Foot Tunnel, connecting Island Gardens and Greenwich is interesting as well. Original entrances and pedestrian tube under the Thames.
Docklands Light Rail as you know, has several railfan seats in the first car with a full view! Going under the Thames to Lewisham is a good ride.
In Paris, in addition to some Métro-fanning, walk north west from the Franklin D. Roosevelt Station (line 1), on the Champs Elysées toward the Arc de Triomphe. Soak up the flavor of this great avenue. If the Arch is open, go up for the view: 12 streets radiate out from the Arch. To the northwest is the Grande Arche de La Défense, at the end of Métro Line 1. (You can catch the Métro or RER to La Defense from Charles de Gaulle-Etoile station at the Arc de Triumph)
The Grande Arche is an interesting modern building architecturally. Notre-Dame, including it's spires, would fit between the walls of the Arche! The Arche and plaza is part of a large office/residential complex.
Take the Métro to the Trocadéro Station. You will exit on a large Plaza with a fantastic view overlooking the Eiffel Tower, to which its's an easy walk to the Tower itself.
After dark, don't miss the Eiffel Tower light show every hour on the hour.
See some of the 87 Guimard Art Nouveau entrances that grace lines 1 through 8. They are now listed as protected. A canopy station entrance can be seen at Porte Dauphine on line 2, and at the Abbesses station on line 12; with a smaller, standard version at Palais Royal/Musée du Louvre on line 1.
Check out the Funiculaire de Montmartre, a few blocks east of the Abbesses station on line 12
I've stayed in the Victoria Station area of London three times now, and find it to be very convenient to all kinds of transit: Three Tube lines, Mainline Trains to Gatwick and the South of England, Victoria Coach Station, and London Busses (Routes 11, 24 & 38 stop at Victoria and along the adjacent streets, and go to/from most of the major sites. The Travelcard is also good on the busses, except the "N" night busses). You will be in a neighborhood where both locals and tourists live and shop. As a result, there are many restaurants and pubs in the area, in addition to food markets.
Have a fantastic time in London and Paris!
so much to see — so little time!
With all those details, you left out getting to the Etoile with the metro line no. 6. Great views from it, especially crossing the Seine and seeing the Eiffel Tower.
If it is not too late, and you have not visited St Pancras station, then do so. The main line terminal is more a gothic cathedral than a railway station. The building (the Midland Grand Hotel) is incredible. Leave the terminal and cross the road to view to get an idea of its scale. All this just to get to Sheffield, Derby and Nottingham.
Great post! Wish I was there, without the rain, of course. I haven't been since 1988 on a school trip, and then I didn't have the freedom, or friends who wanted, to go a-tubing!
>>>The food halls at Harrod's are manna from heaven. Nothing I have ever seen anywhere even compares to that. Upon my first visit to NYC I remember noting that Macy's and Bloomingdale's flagships stores were each a bit of a letdown for me; Marshall Field's flagship store on Chicago's State street blows both away. Harrod's blows Marhall Field's away. <<<
Not necessarily with relation to food, but speaking of "flagship stores," were you ever in John Wannamaker's in Philadelphia? I visited there too young to remember all that well, but I believe I recall the pipe organ and vast atrium. It was unlike any store I had ever seen. You can see it in the movie Mannequin, where Wannamaker's poses as "Prince & Company," a fictional department store. Incidentally, the "bad guys'" store in that movie, "Illustra," was a Boscov's (a Reading based dept. store), which still exists (thrives, actually, for a department store) 5 blocks from the house in suburban Harrisburg in which I grew up. I remember a buncha girls from my high school cut class to go see if they could catch a glimpse of Andrew McCarthy. Wannamakers is gone now. One of our Philadelphia posters can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's now a Hecht's (originally based in D.C.), and they've closed many of the top floors. The Wannamaker's in New York is now a K-Mart (Astor Place, which had a store entrance from the IRT subway stop there <--TRANSIT CONTENT!). If there actually was a John Wannamaker, he must be spinning in his grave. J.W.'s faded into history about the same time as Hess's (Allentown) and Woodward & Lothrop (D.C.). Anybody remember Harrisburg's own store? It went away in the late 70's or early 80's.* How about Cleveland's?** Or Columbus, Ohio's?***
>>>McDonald's food is just as mediocre here as it is in the States. <<<
Well, I bet it wasn't that crowded anyway, what with the hoof-and-mouth (Foot-and-mouth) desease scare.
Have fun!
(Sorry about the OT post, but we suburbans have our nostalgia too. Besides, trolleys used to run past the location of Pomeroys, and even that of Boscovs. Hey, if we can talk about Nedicks and Coney Island...)
*Pomeroy's
**Higby's
***Lazarus (still exists, but is run by the company that owns Macy's, "Federated Dept. Stores"
You forgot the ob. Transit about Wanamakers in Philly: The toy department monorail!
-Dave
Anyone know where I can get a map of the route of AirTrain, preferably superimposed on a subway map showing connections? And is the MTA going to include it on their future maps?
Dan
Thanks for posting that, Pork.
The Van Wyck guideway is now complete through Foch Blvd., with one other section in scaffolds near the Atlantic Av turnoff. Estimated time of all guideway completion is now December 2001.
There are c. 60 lengths of guideway still to be installed. They installed two lengths last week. At that rate they could have the guideway finished by early fall. Now, if they plan to start putting up guideway from two different points (and doubling the personnel used), they could do it even sooner.
You're absolutely right.
I doubt the MTA will show it because it will be run by the PA. Joe Brennan's web site has an awesome map that shows all the transit systems in metro NYC. AirTrain is on there.
I was just browsing eBay and found the above item for sale. For anyone interested, the item # is 1123467365 for anyone who is interested.
I just read the SLOAPP proposal on Tony Mirabella's webpage and all I can say is that I was crying from its hilarity. I urge you all to go read this.
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/subways/sloapp.html
Dan
Thanks for the link! I went there looking for it and coulen't find it on the main page. What's amazing about it is back when I worked for the TA back in '70 and '71, those WERE the rules for conductors and motormen ... when those pawn shop bulbs went out, the doors closed and more often than not, a local had just pulled in. Rule was, lights out, put thumb on nose, wiggle hand at geese (extra points if you put second thumb to pinky and waved TWO hands at them - not operative on R9's) ... and of course the golden rule - at least two geese through the storm door window at every express stop. :)
That was priceless ... glad to see the nostalgia trains are running in revenue service again.
Sounds more like a rip off to passenger that ride the TA.
The SLOAPP proposal is absolutely a gem! Talk about the worst possible service! An excellent example a severe sarcasm. Good work, Tony.
Chuck Greene
Well, I've had a chance to go through some of this document.
The official estimate is $4.3 billion (thanks to those who corrected my earlier figure).
Of that, $3.2 billion is for engineering and construction of 13 miles of track in several tunnels, a new Sunnyside LIRR station at Queens Blvd. and Skillman Avenue, a new lower level GCT LIRR station, a new service yard. The rest of the money is for rolling stock purchase and real estate/easement acquisition. A deep boring alignment was selected to save $400 million and eliminate the need to replace/rebuild the foundations of buildings (underpinning of buildings). The document indicates that weekend closure of 2 subway tracks under Northern Blvd. might be necessary.
If I am not mistaken, LIRR train speeds through the 63rd St tunnel itself are likely to be around 40 mph.
Prelim. engineering will probably begin very soon.
Thank you for finally reading it! You actually answered your own previous post regarding 2nd Ave. :-)
Arti
In a related item, I saw in the Post where Transit wants a prelimary enginering proposal to build a connection between Queens Plaza IND(underground Station) and Queensboro Plaza IRT/BMT (Elevated). This would also connect to the proposed LIRR Sunnyside Station.
My G-d, this might even make some sense!!!
That would be a very long passageway from either subway station to the LIRR tracks.
Yes, I believe I heard something about that. Good news if they follow through.
The Map suggests that the MTA wants them connected -- it has a little box that refers to the two stops as a unit (lists all connecting services).
(In a related item, I saw in the Post where Transit wants a prelimary enginering proposal to build a connection between Queens Plaza IND(underground Station) and Queensboro Plaza IRT/BMT (Elevated). This would also connect to the proposed LIRR Sunnyside Station.)
Just to link multiple threads, if the Port Authority were to build its original JFK through LaGuardia Airtrain (minus the extension over the Queensboro Bridge), it could terminal at this Queens Plaza Megastation. You'd be giving up the one seat ride, but you could get to the airport from many places with just one transfer. Taxis could also take people across the bridge and leave them at the Airtrain terminal. Just a thought.
"Just to link multiple threads, if the Port Authority were to build its original JFK through LaGuardia Airtrain (minus the extension over the Queensboro Bridge), it could terminal at this Queens Plaza Megastation. You'd be giving up the one seat ride, but you could get to the airport from many places with just one transfer. Taxis could also take people across the bridge and leave them at the Airtrain terminal. Just a thought"
A good thought. Not impossible, either.
[A good thought. Not impossible, either.]
Isn't the Queensboro Bridge the center of that massive traffic tieup on the East Side?
Show me a bridge that isn't the center of a tie-up somewhere, sometime..:-)
[Just to link multiple threads, if the Port Authority were to build its original JFK through LaGuardia Airtrain (minus the extension over the Queensboro Bridge), it could terminal at this Queens Plaza Megastation. You'd be giving up the one seat ride, but you could get to the airport from many places with just one transfer. Taxis could also take people across the bridge and leave them at the Airtrain terminal. Just a thought.]
Another thing you could do if they tied the complex together is run Co-Op City service down Hell's Gate. Bronx passengers could then transfer to any of the Queens lines without using tunnel capacity.
Just thought I'd mention it. Final eis for East Side Access (3/2001) states that construction is underway for ADA access to the #7 train platform at Grand Central.
Once done, all subways and commuter rail there will be accessible. Finally.
You mean, getting the elevators back. I'm almost positive the #7 station had them as originally built where the escalators are at the west end.
The definitely had them there. There were 3 of them and they were huge. They were very much like the elevators on the London tube stations. Two doors so that people did not have to turn around. The final touch was a small sign just above the operator that epitomized the NYC spirit to me: "Beware of Pickpockets".
>>>The final touch was a small sign just above the
operator that epitomized the NYC spirit to me: "Beware of Pickpockets".
Stephen: LOL!!
Well they are already there, just not operational.
Arti
Where? I don't see any elevator shaft doors on the mez level other than the new ones that go to the Lex platform.
Walk around the 7 plat. It's been there non-functional for a while, surprise :-)?
Arti
I'll have to take a look down there. Is there evidence of the shaft up on the mezz level?
Havent't looked, but the plat level elevator rhas looked like it could start service any day... for the last year (or more) or so.
Arti
From what I seen in the mezz area, it will be near the two escalators currently being worked on. There is a temporary plywood wall up now.
>>> Once done, all subways and commuter rail there will be accessible. Finally. <<<
If someone who absolutely needs an elevator to get to and from the platform were to get on the #7 train at GCT, where could he get off?
Tom
If someone who absolutely needs an elevator to get to and from the platform were to get on the #7 train at GCT, where could he get off?
Main Street. And in 2003: Times Square.
There are also renovation plans for Roosevelt Avenue-Jackson Heights/74th Street-Broadway, but I don't know if they involve ADA access for the 7.
>>> There are also renovation plans for Roosevelt Avenue-Jackson Heights/74th Street-Broadway, but I don't know if they involve ADA access for the 7. <<<
I would think they would have to in order to comply with the law.
Tom
Only if the 7 station is rebuilt from the ground up, I doubt that's what they're doing.
And you can also change across-the-platform to the N at Queensborough Plaza, which opens a whole new set of options in platform transfers and elevator access.
And aren't there also elevators at the Woodside LIRR/7 train station?
Yes. Woodside's #7 platform and LIRR area are fully ADA compliant.
74th-St Broadway complex will be ADA-compliant as well after renovations are done. However, the #7 line has a ways to go before it is truly an accessible line along most of its route.
The only across the platform transfer at QP from the Flushing-bound 7 is to the Astoria-bound N. I don't believe there are any elevators on the Astoria line.
You can change direction at Ditmars Boulevard.
Transfer to the N at Queensboro Plaza. Ride to Ditmars and back south to 57th, 34th, or Cortlandt, or transfer to another line at 34th, DeKalb, or Pacific.
I haven't seen the handicapped elevator in a couple of weeks. It seems to be complete, but still boarded up. Is it running yet?
Bill "Newkirk"
It won't be long now guys. I will be coming to New York on the red=eye on the late evening of March 29. I will be in town Friday to Sunday afternoon. I would love to meet up with any of you guys who would like to railran and just have a hell of a time. Hey, I got an idea. We could get a small group of us to go downtown and pick a spot for me to announce my candidacy for Mayor of New York. They'd all be wondering, who the hell are these guys anyway? Out them song could be "Who let the dogs out".
I guess that means as a group we travel to Coney island for lunch via the Sea Beach ?
Bill "Newkirk"
>>> I guess that means as a group we travel to Coney island for lunch via the Sea Beach ? <<<
Better go via Brighton, it looks like too short a visit to take the Slow Beach. :-)
Tom
With such a short visit, if he takes the Slow Beach he'll have to eat his hot dog on the run and won't have time to wait for the crinckle-cut french fries.
--Harry
ROTFLMAO
You people are too much!:-)
Bill. you read my mind perfectly, which means since it's still early in the morning should have taken you no more than three seconds. The Sea Beach to Coney for lunch is a go. Good job.
Only YOU can save NYC from Bill Clinton. :^>
John: That's what I've been telling everybody, and I've put together a good team to do it, but not too many people are buying it right now. I need you guys to go out there and spread the word.
Aw man, John! He'd be awright long as he has an exclusively MALE staff!! Otherwise he's make a good mayor; although nearly anyone looks good compared to Fascist Rudy. Peace and GB, Thomas :-)
In all seriousness, I saw Charlie Rangel on CNBC last night, and once again I was very impressed with this man. I really believe he would make a good mayor for New York. As one of my colleagues remarked, he is a little long in the tooth, but his experience and ability to work with people from all parts of the political spectrum augers well for his potential to be a good mayor. I really would like to see him through his hat in the ring. He would also be a strong supporter of subways. He has in the past.
Hey Fred: But seriously, of course he would! It helps immensely he is a Democrat in a still staunchly Dem. enclave such as NYC, and plus he's a man of color which should help, too, a la David Dinkins. Yeah, he'd make an excellent mayor, and assuming myself, or you Fred, or Heypaul do not run, as any one of us would give him undoubtedly serious competition, I'd probably expect to see him elected. Food for thought, though: isn't to go from a congressman to a mayor kind of a step down? Or is it a good short-cut to the Governor's mansion ot US Senate? Wich reminds me, of Hillary C.-ya gotta love her! I know I do! --Peace, Thomas :-)
Oh no Thomas, not Hillary. We will never agree on her, but Charles is a stand up guy and he would make a good mayor. It would not be a step down. John Lindsay went from Congress to the Mayorality of New York. He didn't do all that well but for him it was a step up. Being Mayor of New York is the hardes jobn next to President. Rangel is up to it and if a Republican like me can embrace him, then it follows others can and he would be a shoo in.
Locally World-Famous Sea Beach Fred:
I'm in complete agreement, 'cept foah two issues. The first, my homegal Hillary. The second, being Mayor of NYC is in fact THE hardest job in the world even before, not after, being US Pres!!!:-)
Peace and enjoy yuah trip to da big apple, locally world-famous Thomas:-/
P.S.: But yes, without continuing to go way off topic, Rangel WOULD indeed make an excellent Mayor, he's got my vote assuming I don't right myself in and persuade others to also.
Hey Fred, come to Brooklyn, We'll take you out to La Sorrentino, which is on 11th Avenue and 66th Street, only 4 blocks from the heart of the Sea Beach line! It's also the best Neopolitian around.
You can watch your R32, R40 and R68 MUs fly up and down the ROW. If you are lucky, you will also get to see a Atl. Rwy. freight!
Piasan: I really hope I can hook up with some of my railfan buddies. I will be staying at the Marriott Marquis on Friday and Saturday nights. I will also have some time on Sunday to railfan and eat some good Italian food. I'm going to keep reminding the guys of my coming since I really am serious about meeting you guys in the flesh. BTW, Brighton Beach Bob and I are having dinner on Tuesday. He is the only railfanner I've met in person. I want to meet a lot more of you.
I hope one of you has a tape recorder or camcorder.:-)
BTW, the N will be running express on Broadway southbound 24/7 during your visit. Hopefully, you'll get a train of R-32s.
And don't forget there's Mama Lucci's on Foster Ave.
Incidentally, it is near the Newkirk Ave. station stop of the Brighton Line (what else).
It is an old fashioned Italian Restaurant in what is best described as the Ditmas Park section (classic frame houses adorn the neighborhood).
Check w/Bill Newkirk for further details.
BMTman
I will remember that name near Foster Avenue. I thought of trying the Italian food in the Bronx I heard so much about, but Stef and the boys might have a necktie party waiting for me up there. The Bronx doesn't seem to be friendly terrirory for this Mets fan, but Brooklyn used to be home to practically all my relatives and me. Where's Lundy"s? How do I get there. I have to have some of their seafood.
Lundy's is in Sheepshead Bay on Emmons Avenue within walking distance of the Sheepshead Bay Station. How about Sunday?
Possibly. My plane leaves at 4:00 p.m. It would be cutting it tight. How long would it take to get to LaGuardia from there by cab?
Probably around a half hour, but that's a guess. Dinner would have to be early. Would you be interested in breakfast or brunch? Perhaps dim sum in Chinatown (Manhattan, Brooklyn, or Queens) or cheese blintzes in a Polish restaurant?
Yea Gary I would. Or we could get together on Saturday. Either way I'm flexible. I just want to meet some of my railfan buddies and have a good time. It's wierd making pals with people on this site and not knowing what they look like. BTW, my plane leaves at 4:30, not 4:00. It gives me an extra half-hour.
It's your choice for Sunday. Saturday is already booked for us.
Sunday brunch would be fine. I hope I can get a cab to La Guardia so as not to miss my flight.
Dim sum, blintzes, or none of the above?
You'll never get a cab from there. You'd have to call a car service or get someone to drive you.
You want to volunteer. I'd even give you a Twenty. Hell I'd rather pay a fellow railfanner than some bloodsucking cabby.
I would, however I am temporarily un-carred.
isnt that a pakistani money transfer place now?
Uh, you lose a turn.
Guess again.
You gots my vote, Fred! -Peace, Thomas :-)
I hope that I'll be able to come down to New York and see you. Maybe we can do some railfanning together and if you can try to ride the 63rd St. connector.
BMTJeff
Work on it Jeff. I look forward to seeing you. Did you get my phone message? Raifanning is in, and lunch is on me. How about that?
O.K. railfanning is in and I hope that we can have a good time in New York together.
BMTJeff
I heard from 1953-57 the Queens Blvd line hold up 11-cars. Why did that plan only lasted 4 years? I think they should bring back 11-cars to QB line today because their is alot of overcrowding on that line? If, yes that happens the TA should also deliver Single subway cars for that service?
Why did that plan only lasted 4 years?
At that time the normal procedure was to have 2 conductors for all long rush hour trains. They were stationed between cars 1&2 and 10&11 respectively. The TA wanted to reduce this to 1 conductor like the shorter off peak trains. The TWU objected on "safety" grounds and the case went to arbitration.
The arbitrator noted that under the current system that one of the conductors was responsible for 6 cars and the other 5. The arbitrator noted that the conductor, responsible for 6 cars, had to look at 5 cars in a single direction. The arbitrator concluded that there would be no additional hazard, if a conductor were responsible for 5 cars in each of two directions.
Therefore, the TA could run 10 car trains with a single conductor but the 11th car had to come with its own conductor. Guess what happened?
Eleven car Flushing trains did not appear until 1964. I don't know whether the opinion was translated into length or if the TWU was too beaten back to object by that time.
>>> I don't know whether the opinion was translated into length <<<
Or possibly the number of doors that have to be observed.
Tom
Second conductors were common on rush hour trains. The entire second conductor issue was resolved when the TWU won a no-layoff clause for conductors, enabling one conductor trains through the system.
Then there is no reason that 11 car trains could not be resumed except that the platforms have been shortened, there aren't enough cars, and the cars they have come in married groups.
But, the R160 are to be in both 4 and 5 car sets. So they can just as well make some 3 or 6 cars sets as well to make 11 car trains.
The R160 are going to must likey be 5 car set 60footers, or 4 car set 75footers. Eather way they won't be running on the east division.
Robert
The R160 is already planned as an expansion of the R143 contract, thus they will be approximately identical (60').
Wrong. 67' and 75' cars are out. Appoximately half are to be 4 cars sets, the rest 5 cars sets.
Then there is no reason that 11 car trains could not be resumed
11-car QB trains were unpopular with the TA and many crews because they were harder to spot. Added/removing extras cars, once a common feature on the system, became increasingly expensive as labor costs became a larger part of operating expense.
STORY on AMTRAK derailment in Iowa.
Peace,
ANDEE
So much for FRA crash standards. Of course, had this been a "dangerous" design, like the TGV, the biggest problem Amtrak qould have been facing was figureing out how to get a bus into such a remote area. I'm impressed - at speeds of less than 80 mph, the train cars go flying all over the place. One shudders to think what would have happened if there was a bridge abutment there.
Of course, with a lightweight, articulated design like the TGV, a derailment is a minor event, as the cars stay upright, connected, and move more or less in a line. Or at least they do when they derail at 180+. With no deaths. An amazingly dangerous design, indeed.
Of course, with a lightweight, articulated design like the TGV, a derailment is a minor event, as the cars stay upright, connected, and move more or less in a line. Or at least they do when they derail at 180+. With no deaths. An amazingly dangerous design, indeed.
What would a TGV be doing on a cross country run in Iowa? Amtrak is trying to compete in the area of comfort level. You multiply discomfort by time. Amtrak = palace on wheels (ie Superliner) = super low discomfort x days. Arilines = super high discomfort x hours. TGV = WILL NEVER RUN ACROSS THIS COUNTRY SO PLEASE DISCARD YOUR PIPE DREAM. Also, what if I wanted to move some TGV cars onto a train that need extra cars from a train that nobody uses OR what if a car fails inspection. YOU CAN'T UNCOUPLE IT! Your idea is akin to replacing seatbelts with super glue.
"So much for FRA crash standards. Of course, had this been a "dangerous" design, like the TGV, the biggest problem Amtrak qould have been facing was figureing out how to get a bus into such a remote area. I'm impressed - at speeds of less than 80 mph, the train cars go flying all over the place. One shudders to think what would have happened if there was a bridge abutment there"
You missed the point of FRA crash standards completely. There was one fatality and 90 injuries, most of them relatively minor. With a European train the bus you talked about would be full of body bags.
From what it's looking like, based on BLE brother's testimony and other accounts, "the train was proceeding normally whereupon out of nowhere, I left a 'tug' from the rear" ... sounds like the loco (CONJECTURE ALERT!) passed over a broken rail and got past the crack whereupon the rail broke, dumping the cars. For anyone who examined the helicopter shots on video, you may have noticed a stream in the video passing under the tracks at what looks like the derail point.
I suspect the loco passed over an undermine, and the track broke under its weight, causing the cars to hit a split rail and dump over the side. Since the front end acknowledges no "bump" it would seem that an undermine would likely have collapsed, the weight breaking a brittle rail and dumping the train behind it.
Should be interesting what NTSB's conclusions are despite having to rot for the answers. Looks like it was BN track. Similar undermines have plagued CSX of late, including a couple of majors a few years ago in NJ ... As much as many like to rag on Amtrak and the clueless media can't differentiate between an AMTRAK fault and a host railroad fault, I *really* wish the media would do a fair "chalk-up" of these things because this one doesn't appear (CONJECTURE ALERT!) to be Amtrak's fault either ... in all fairness, it would be reasonable for our so-called urinalists to do a followup on "how many people were killed by Amtrak as opposed to those caused by other railroads" ... like the incident in Illinois, Louisiana, the sabotage in Arizona, the rest. One person dead is STILL a pretty good outcome considering if they were in a tube in the sky ... rarely does only one get killed in an AIR crash ...
OK, enough ... did a 30 hour shift and I'm punchy (or I wouldn't have posted the last couple) ... shows ya what happens when you're born Irish, have to take St Patty's day off to be safe from the amateurs and self-appointed Irish and then go on a bender to celebrate that passing of the holiday ... hahahahahah. (nighty!)
Funny how we all suspect a broken rail did it. BN tracks between Galesburg and Omaha does suck. Too bad it wasn't a freight.
I'm expecting that it will be an undermine condition brought about by a soggy embankment. It was a straightaway ...
NBC10 just reported that a meeting has been called at City Hall. Both parties are expressing optimison and maybe an agreement can be reached. I think this is really a good sign and it's wonderful that
there was no strike called in the midst of all this. Maybe Mayor Street has done it again!
Chuck Greene
Apparently as of later this evening the talks have been moved to an 'undisclosed location' alleged to be a law office on South Broad St. From what we've heard from the media so far, things sound promising.
I dont know if anyone have noticed, but 72St-Bway station expansion program are in its beginning stages. The work is to continue to summer of 2003.
"I dont know if anyone have noticed, but 72St-Bway station expansion program are in its beginning stages. The work is to continue to summer of 2003."
At the Friday night E.R.A. meeting, there was a segment with current slides on the reconstruction project of 72nd St. Plans call for a new headhouse to be built with wheelchair access. I guess the old headhouse will be retained but what exactly it's function for the station rehab is not clear to me.
Bill "Newkirk"
My impression is that both headhouses will provide access to the station.
The new one will be in the former northbound lanes of Broadway, which, due to turn restrictions, was only used by buses in recent years. (General traffic, and now buses, use Amsterdam Avenue, left on 73rd, right on Broadway.)
Construction has been under way for a year or two.
That makes sense. Since there is no mezz level, adding a second set of stairs from the platforms requires adding a second head house.
It has been reported here that the NY Waterway Ferry from East 34th St and Long Island City would be terminated. I logged onto their website at www.nywaterway.com but the webisite may not have been updated, still showing the 34th St/LIC ferry.
The new Long Island Railroad timetables dated March 19th 2001 no longer show the ferry logo for Long Island City. Any comments on this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Queens Surface stopped it free bus service, the Q69.
Mr t__:^)
Now that there is no longer a ferry, what reason would a LIRR passenger have to go to/from the LIC stop? Is that stop enough of a destination to continue LIRR service? I can understand the continuance of the LIRR Hunterspoint stop, with a relatively easy transfer to the '7'. I know I'm being Manhattan-centric here, but will we soon see service cut back to Hunterspoint Av. and the complete abandonment of the Lower Montauk branch? Really, I'm asking: Who uses LIRR's LIC stop? I'm actually not sure exactly where it is. Are there a lot of businesses employing people around there? I thought most of the factories were closed.
They ferry was essentially the only reason for the stop. They are rehabbing the station for ADA compatibility, so the "entrance" (break in fence and area where you are allowed to walk across 6 or so active tracks) near the subway was (temporarily?) closed. The only way to get to the station was to walk down to the from-ferry entrance. The from-ferry entrance is at the bumper blocks, and the from-subway entrance is about 10 car lengths away, so it isn't exactly a short walk. In any event, there's almost nothing in the neighborhood.
The LIRR will NEVER abandon the Lower Montauk for several reasons:
1. If even one part of one Main Line track must be worked on, the whole track must be taken OOS. That severely limits rush hour capacity, and thus anything for HP is sent to LIC. A few trains are also directed to Flatbush. Other trains are combined.
2. LIC cannot (I don't think) hold all the trains required for Hunterspoint service. Since both tracks at HP are used for the same direction, trains must deadhead to/from LIC via the Lower Montauk.
3. Freight.
There may be a cessation of passenger service, but never abandonment.
The LIRR should have advertised the LIC station and ferry combo as the 'east side connection' sort of like they did for the Atlantic ave line with "The Flatbush (downtown) connection". Maybe if ferries ran to 34st and 42st, we could have had a temporary solution for ESA.
When returning from the Friday night E.R.A. meeting and waiting to an Uptown express to Penn Station, I noticed at the base of the platform columns they were numbered in dayglo paint. Is this station having a rehab soon ?
BTW - One thing unique to me about leaving the E.R.A. meeting a certain time is seeing the revenue train making a stop on the northbound side of Chambers St. Just two R-22's and front signs signed up "Not in Service".
I heard the revenue train will be replaced by amored trucks. Any comments ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I hope so, as that station needs a rehab. While not as ratty and decayed as its BMT namesake, Chambers IRT has its share of water leaks, the tile band needs reglazing and regrouting (the white tile needs replacing), and they really MUST do something about that fetid stench that permeates the south end of the southbound platform.
wayne
[I heard the revenue train will be replaced by amored trucks. Any comments ?]
I believe it's a fact vs. a rumor. Have you see the increase in the amount of armored TA trucks at Jay Street ?
I don't understand the logic is this, do you ?
Mr t__:^)
here is a photo of the MBTA commuter rail Note for David Pirrman: you can put this photo in the commuter rail photo gallery
check the url on that
Aight, I'm probably gonna hit up the east caost this summer, but for my spring break I am just going to Portland.
sorry to hear that :( catch u later on! -Nick
I might head to washington D.C. to railfan the metro. And I will try to get photos of the new CAF cars.
Last week on Subtalk someone asked when the Simpsons revealed that Springfield was in Kentucky. At the end of last season, there was an episode called "Behind the Laughter", sort of a behind the scenes look at the show, modeled on "Behind the Music". At one point the announcer said something like, "and this typical American Kentucky family. . ." When I looked at a map of Kentucky, sure enough, not only was there a Springfield, but a few miles away, a Shelbyville! (Transit connection -- both towns constructed ill-fated monorails.)
No. I remember that episode. It was Southern Missouri family.
My son has memorized all Simpsons dialogue. It was Kentuckey. Besides, there is no Shelbyville in Misouri.
Then he must be mistaken. It was definitely Southern Missouri.
Let's piss Pork off!Of course, The Simpsons likes to tease viewers with questions about which state Sprinfield is in. On another occassion, we see Marge talking on the phone, giving her adress, "Springfield, Oh-Hiya Maude!"
That episode said "Kentucky"
:-) Andrew
I already said this.
And the time Homer pointed to Chicago on the map as the location of Springfield, by the time Lisa corrected him, Bart's head was in the way.
The (almost) precise words in the "Behind the Laughter" episode were, "Well, the party's over for this Northern Kentucky family." This, after years of teasing, as you point out. Only in Northern KY is there a Springfield and a Shelbyville, only a few miles apart.
I highly doubt that Matt Groening cared if there was a Springfield next to a Shelbyville anyway. The exact words were the same as you said, except it was SOUTHERN MISSOURI.
>>> The exact words were the same as you said, except it was SOUTHERN MISSOURI. <<<
Pork;
You keep repeating yourself without providing any authority. Why should we think your memory is bettor than those who think it is Kentucky?
Tom
We can wait for the episode to rerun in syndication OR (unlikely) an off-season network rerun.
Or we can post the question at alt.tv.simpsons. My ISP's NNTP server sucks, Deja.com and Remarq.com (the only NNTP posting services I knew of) are dead and I haven't yet found a good free NNTP server, so I can do squat.
here is what the FAQ for Alt.tv.simpsons
http://www.snpp.com/guides/springfield.list.html
Though I know they referred to northern Kentucky, a friend of my son's says he saw a rerun of the same episode with a reference to Missouri. So they're jerking us around again! (But there is a Shelbyville down the road from Springfield, KY.)
It thought they said something like "this state that is not Kentucky"
The (almost) precise words in the "Behind the Laughter" episode were, "Well, the party's over for this Northern Kentucky family."
NO. It was SOUTHERN MISSOURI.
Wherever Springfield might be, it is certainly either on the ocean or on an inland lake or waterway large enough for cargo vessels and a lighthouse!!
I read two stories in the Daily News Friday. First, the press has caught on to the R-142X problems. However, they said the problems were minor and that the TA has resumed ordering the cars. In fact, I've seen many R-142s on the 6 line. The ones on the 2 line are scarse. Maybe the R-142As are having the problems more.
The other story was about an unfortunate man found dead on a train at Coney Island. From what I read, this is the second time this has happened.
Two subway stories in one newspaper is really rare. :)
Tony
The R142A's run on the 6, and the R142's run on the 2. I saw 2 R142's at 207th Street yesterday next to a R110B.
Yes, I even believe I saw a set of Bombardier R-142's over at Linden Yards on Saturday while on my way to Long Island as I drove past the site on Linden Blvd. I believe the lead car number was 6495.
BMTman
Uh oh! Would you believe that they may have delivered 15 cars over a 3 day period?!? What did I miss? I've seen the same set of diesels over a 3 day period. One solo engine in travel, plus the two diesels and rider car, make for some pretty interesting coversation pieces. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday saw these locos in travel. I spotted Loco 891, RD330, and Loco 898 in front of an automatic signal at Jackson Av, heading south last night as I was getting off the train from work. 82 was travelling apart from the others.
-Stef
The No.6 does have alot of R142A's running maybe about 6 or 7 trains on the road. I been operating a R142A at least once a day.
Most of the R142A's run out of Pelham but they are starting to run out of Parkchester.
The R142A's where taken off the road about a month ago and that was because of Door Problems and Announcement problems.
The R142 on the No.2 Line had braking problems.
The best car in the NYCT is the R-32. Strange how it is younger than a good deal of the redbirds, all other 60ft. equipment in use on the B div, and yet it will outlast all of them. R-32's are durable, fast and best of all, they have a railfan window (plus, you can look through the cracks of the hinges and see the speedometer. Nothing beats that [you can also do this on the R-38]). R-32's ride better than their R-38 cousins, and also look better (in my opinion). They match up better against any other B division equipment and most A division equipment. R-68/A's are alow peices of crap, and the R-46/44's are not the best MDBF performers. I don't know about R-143/160's yet, but it looks as though the R-32 will continue to be the best peice of equipment into it's retirement.
As for historical cars, BMT D Types were the best (from what info. i've gathered. Keep in mind that I never rode on an R-10 or R-16, much less any pre-unification equipment.) They were an excellent concept, and with today's light metal alloys, a car built like the D types (articuated) would be much lighter on the structures that they run on. I don't think that the D types were re-built (please correct me if i'm wrong.). However if they were, they could have lasted much longer than they did.
Anyone here disagree with them cars being the best?
(Note, I don't know anything about pre-unification IRT cars. Anyone with something to add about them would be helpful).
Strange how it is younger than a good deal of the redbirds, all other 60ft. equipment in use on the B div, and yet it will outlast all of them.
Should say older.
R32s are younger than the initial order of redbirds (R26).
The R26, like it's bigger sister the R27, was not "born" red. I was eight years old (back in the fall of 1959) when I saw one on the Lexington Avenue Express line, at the Franklin Avenue station, in Bklyn. It was the FIRST time I had ever seen a SMEE on the Lex line. None of my railfan friends would believe me. "I NEVER saw a new train (SMEE) on the express" would be the reply. (we all hated the florescent lighted new trains) At that point in time the R17's and up had knocked off the Hi V's on the west side IRT lines and were in the majority on the Seventh Ave Exp (there were a few WF Low V's that ran only during rush hours). "Venus", by Frankie Avalon was on the top of the charts.
The R44 and R46 may look alike, but perform a lot differently. Don't sell the R46 short. Yes, the R32 is a good piece of equipment, but the R46 outshines them in Queens. Perhaps because the barn gives more attention to the R46.
>>The R44 and R46 may look alike, but perform a lot differently<<
I don't have the most recent MDBF sheet, but the last one I saw had R-44's and R-46's pretty much equql.
R-32's are also the backbone of the B div. They even do spot fill-ins when other cars get sick. (fill ins: G,Q,R,A). Note, 2 of those lines are operators of R-46's from Queens.
Does the barn give the R46 more attention because they need it or because they like them better ?
Obviously because they like them better. Who wouldn't?
Dan
You're a genius, J trainloco. I agree on both scores, at least if we talking design stability and durability.
As far as the R32 is concerned, three little words sum up why they're likely to be around for a while.
BUILT BY BUDD
I can't believe those at the TA who had to be dragged into buying them.
Idiots.
>>BUILT BY BUDD<<
Sniffle
Words that can't be applied to any new subway cars. DAMN!
Paul, I am obviously a fan of the R32, too. Actually, the name-plate insignia in the R32s was "Built by the Budd Company". I can still picture the insignia, with the name "Budd" in big blue, slanted letters on a bright, shiny (stainless, of course) name plate. The name plate was placed behind the emergency brake handle. The interior colors matched, too, on the originals. To think that if the TA had continued to by Budd trains they would not have to be replacing the other, newer cars so soon. Budd was way too advanced for the TA starched-shirts back then.
--Harry
Amen to that.
Your handle speaks volumes in favor of the R-11 and R-32's....:-)
BMTman
Actually my handle speaks volumes in favor of the best designed Budd-built car ever; The Almond Joy, plus Budd knew how to design and build a good carbody.
Amen buddtrainzrule
Now if they could only bring back the trademark blue doors on the R-32s. Not to mention bulkhead route and destination roller curtains.
Budd really outdid themselves on these cars. I agree the TA should have bought more of them - hundreds more. But nooooooooooo........
The front-end destination signs are what I miss the most. This of course was introduced by the other Brighton Express veteran, the Triplex. I predict that it will be back on newer equipment.
>>The front-end destination signs are what I miss the most. This of course was introduced by the other Brighton Express veteran, the Triplex. I predict that it will be back on newer equipment.<<
So far, NO!!
The R-143 doesn't have the characteristic bullet front sign, putting what is essentially a luminator sign on the front of it.
Those are really bad. R-110b's have big bullet signs, and I figured that the R-143 would have the bullet sign too. With a bullet, I can see what train is pulling in before it's even in the station. But, not with those luminator thingamajigies. Those things are the only thing that I hate about R-32's. And R-32's weren't built like that, so I can't fault BUDD.
Of course Budd also built the R11, and they were junk.
"Of course Budd also built the R11, and they were junk."
I don't agree that the R-11's were junk. They were only 10 of a kind and experimental in nature. Perhaps they seem line junk because they were too complicated for their times ? Hmmmm........sound familiar ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Why do you think the R11 was junk?
Poor MDBF's, an R34 rebuilding, and still poor MDBF's. What was so advanced about them - a mut of an R10 and an R16 ?
>>What was so advanced about them - a mut of an R10 and an R16 ?<<
There were a number of mechanical differences. R-11's are nothing like real BUDD cars, as the R-32 proves. R-11's were prototypes for 2nd av. (than damned 2nd av.)
The R-11s introduced electric door engines to the B division. Not to mention precipitrons. They sterilized not only the air, but PEOPLE TOO!!
"Precipitrons" ...
People were insanely "health conscious" at the time, so any FDA unapproved gimmicks were a major PR coup to the subways. :)
Not to mention the fact that at the time the R-11s were built, the Salk polio vaccine was still a few years away.
The R-11's were only 'junk' in the eyes of the bureaucrats and number-crunchers.
The R-11 set was made specifcially as a 'test train' for the then proposed Second Avenue Subway. When the line didn't pan out the order for additional cars was scrubbed. However, the R-11's had better ventilation and ligthing over previous car orders.
Because of their experimental status they could not be fully integrated into the rest of the NYCTA's fleet and remained 'orphaned' throughout the remainder of their careers (mostly based on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle under their rebuilt designation, R-34).
Having ridden on the cars in the early 70's, I can state with much authority that the R-11's were far from 'junk'.
BMTman
And PROPHETIC in their design. Who would have thought that over 20 years earlier, Budd would have built R11's that looked *so much* like the later R32's that some were rebuilt as R34's? For those who like the 32's, the 11's were the prototype.
Doug: I too rode the R-11's after they had been rebuilt on both the #3 and #7 lines. They were very nice cars but there were just to few of them to stock spare parts for. Remember the Bluebirds,Green Hornet and Zephyr? Even today we are canabalizing three R-110B's to keep the other six running.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Doug: I too rode the R-11's after they had been rebuilt on both the #3 and #7 lines. They were very nice cars but there were just too few of them to stock spare parts for. Remember the Bluebirds,Green Hornet and Zephyr? Even today we are canabalizing three R-110B's to keep the other six running.
Larry,RedbirdR33
"They match up better against any other B division equipment and most A division equipment. R-68/A's are alow peices of crap, and the R-46/44's are not the best MDBF performers. I don't know about R-143/160's yet, but it looks as though the R-32 will continue to be the best peice of equipment into it's retirement."
I usually avoid this subject and posts like it. First - they are very subjective and usually full of mis-information. Your post is no different. To start with, obviously you don't know about the R-143 or R-160 yet. The R-143 is yet to be delivered and the R-160 has not yet been designed - much less built. Neither has any performance data to be compared with the R-32. Second, the R-32 is far from the best performer as measured by MDBF. It is an excellent car but its MDBF is less than 1/2 of the R-68. It is also not as cost-efficient in terms of miles/Mtce. man hr. as some of the younger cars. If you want to say it's the best because it's your favorite car of because it's so bright and shiney, that's okay but please don't start making qualitative comparisons that just don't add up.
>>To start with, obviously you don't know about the R-143 or R-160 yet. The R-143 is yet to be delivered and the R-160 has not yet been designed - much less built. Neither has any performance data to be compared with the R-32.<<
Could've swore I said that. Re-read the peice of my message you copied. It says: I don't know about R-143/160's yet, . Another person on this site who doesn't pay attention.
>>Second, the R-32 is far from the best performer as measured by MDBF<<
Never said it was.
>>It is an excellent car but its MDBF is less than 1/2 of the R-68.<<
The R-68 is also how old? 12-16 years old. I never said that the R-32 was a better MDBF performer than the R-68. But it's faster. And is better looking (R-68's look nasty with their storm door 'sunk in' the front of the train. R-32's look nice like that.)
>>It is also not as cost-efficient in terms of miles/Mtce. man hr. as some of the younger cars. If you want to say it's the best because it's your favorite car of because it's so bright and shiney, that's okay but please don't start making qualitative comparisons that just don't add up.<<
For it's age, the R-32 is the best. Look at it: It will be in service longer than any other 60fter. It's fast. It rides nice. In 10 years, will you want to compare R-68's to the newest equipment? No, cuz R-68s by that time will be suffering from more frequent breakdowns and less eficient service. It adds up fine. For their age R-32's are the best in service. Let's not compare cars to one another according to their age.
I think it is you who doesn't pay attention to what is posted - even if it was you who posted it. What you actually said was, "They match up better against any other B division equipment and most A division equipment. R-68/A's are alow peices of crap, and the R-46/44's are not the best MDBF performers."
You implied that the R-32 outperforms the the R-68 and the R-46 which is simply not supported by the operating statistics. This brings us to your other point. If your criteria for a great car is that you can see the speedometer through the crack in the cab door hinge or that it has a railfan window, well then, I must nominate you for the 2001 Salaam-LaLa award.
With the R32s, stainless steel was introducted to the NYC system. Stainless is now the standard. And they were first introduced on the Q Broadway Exp. (most appropriately). 'Nuff said.
The R-32 is one of my favorites for another reason that wasn't pointed out: with it's all-stainless steel body the 32's were a nice breakaway from the boring R-27/30 styling due to their fluted sides.
BMTman
The fluted style was a Budd "signature" in most of what they made. I don't think NYCTA had originally designed the car to look that way, it was intended to look more like the R-33's but when Budd managed the low bid on it and presented the drawings, the wigs accepted the unusual "look" when it was explained how that added to the structural strength of the car without running up the meter. But when the 38's were built, the TA seemed to have gotten a compromise. It really is a pity that Budd died ... there never was anyone else in the car and foundry business that could hold a candle to what Budd built (and I was always a die hard Pullman and ACF lover) ... heh.
The R32 was pretty much mechanically an R30, so why was the R30 put on locals when new, had lousy MDBF, and put to sleep prematurely ?
I nominate the R-38 since it doesnt really matter how significant the subject of posts on this board is.
Well, I would have to say that a nice clean Slant R-40 actually blinded me briefly one day as it was making a turn into Broadway Junction.
I haven't seen R-68's clean enough to be blinding from sunlight reflection, but if anyone can get cars that clean it would be the crew up in Concourse Yard....hint, hint...;-)
BMTman
haha heard that train dude?
>>I think it is you who doesn't pay attention to what is posted - even if it was you who posted it. What you actually said was, "They match up better against any other B division equipment and most A division equipment. R-68/A's are alow peices of crap, and the R-46/44's are not the best MDBF performers."<<
>>You implied that the R-32 outperforms the the R-68 and the R-46 which is simply not supported by the operating statistics.<<
You're right. I stated the point poorly.
R-32's were the best built cars. They're still in good condition. As for your miles/mtce. point you pointed out, it is quite valid, but nonetheless R-32's need more work because they have been runnning much longer than any other peice of B division equipment. Yet, they will be running with the rest of the 75'ers after the R-160's will arrive. As long as they've been in service, you must admit that they are the best built cars. It's cheaper to run a car for 30-40 years than just purchase new ones and replace the older ones when a car reaches it's 20th year of life. That was what I should have said. Based on this R-32's are the best peice of equipment in service.
Your right, R-68's are the best performers. (I hate them. I think they're ugly and slow.) R-46's are my favorite. They look nice, they were speed tested at high speeds on Sea Beach, and they can still go fast (faster than R-68's).
D types were the best. Look at this:
10 car 60' train: 20 trucks
9 car 67' train: 18 trucks
8 car 75' train: 16 trucks
4 unit 150' articulated train (3 50 foot segments per unit): 16 trucks
Train dude: Wouldn't it be cheaper to run a train of articulated trains? (less maintenence due to shared parts, much like R-44/46.)
And Train Dude, Could you get the MDBF for an R-32's when they were about 13-14? It would be cool to see them matched up against today's R-68's.
D types were the best. Look at this:
The D types were my all-time favorite
10 car 60' train: 20 trucks
9 car 67' train: 18 trucks
8 car 75' train: 16 trucks
4 unit 150' articulated train (3 50 foot segments per unit): 16 trucks
Train dude: Wouldn't it be cheaper to run a train of articulated trains? (less maintenence due to shared parts, much like R-44/46.)
The D types were too heavy to be practicalthe axle load of articulated trainsets is also higher meaning the roadbed and rails take a greater beating.
And Train Dude, Could you get the MDBF for an R-32's when they were about 13-14? It would be cool to see them matched up against today's R-68's.
Actually in the 70s, the r-32s ran well, relative to the rest of the fleet. But in those days 15 - 20,000 was a high MDBF so draw your own conclusions. Remember, that was the era of deferred maintenance.
>>>Actually in the 70s, the r-32s ran well, relative to the rest of the fleet. But in those days 15 - 20,000 was a high MDBF so
draw your own conclusions. Remember, that was the era of deferred maintenance.
Dude: An utter nightmare! :)
I am not sure if this has been asked before (and I am sorry if it has), but I would like to ask what were the best and worst car types (historically, since the unification) in terms of initial (within the first year) MDBF statistics. IIRC, the R-44's had MDBF's of about 7,000 soon after delievery, but you would certainly be more familair with this than I am. Thank you very much!
-cordially,
turnstiles
>>but I would like to ask what were the best and worst car types<<
The worst had to be the R-16 in the 1980's. Nothing could be worse than those cars.
>>IIRC, the R-44's had MDBF's of about 7,000 soon after delievery, but you would certainly be more familair with this than I am<<
You recall correctly.
But, I've read that the R-44's were second worst during that time. The absoloute worst? R-16's. The 16's weren't the best cars when it came to MDBF in the 80's.
Best car? R-32. Why? It's still running. It'll be running for at least another 10 years. For a car to still be running shows 2 things.
1. Budd built the R-32's to last.
2. MK rebuilt the R-32's to last.
>>But in those days 15 - 20,000 was a high MDBF so draw your own conclusions. Remember, that was the era of deferred maintenance.<<
Good thing people like you are around to stop stuff like that from happening.
>>If your criteria for a great car is that you can see the speedometer through the crack in the cab door hinge or that it has a railfan window, well then, I must nominate you for the 2001 Salaam-LaLa award.<<
Why is that so bad? From a railfanning perspective a railfan window and speedometer visibility are two very high priorities! It doesn't make the car better overall, but it sure does help.
Dan
You're trying to argue down a fleet manager about a fleet of cars he oversees? As Renn Hoek of Ren and Stimpy would say; "You IIIIIIIDIOT!!!!"
Moron.
I didn't argue him down, nor am i saying that R-32's are the best performers. I'm saying that R-32's were the best built. They are still durable, even after years of use.
Moron.
It depends on the facility or yard, the route, route miles, track condition, stress, number of miles on the car set, and builder and so on and so on. Besides, buffoon, most subway cars are built for thirty years of service anyway. You should expect to get a few extra years out of them. If you don't get thirty or more years, you've purchased a lemon. I don't really see what's so good about your R32 anyway. So what it's faster? It's governor may be weak. A railfan window? Can't get from point A to B without one of those (note the sarcasm in case you missed it). And they look good, wow. Most subway cars look like twinkies on wheels to me anyway, so that's just a matter of opinion, as are most, if not all of your arguments. So give me a break jackass. I don't even live in NYC and I can use some common sense judgement about subway cars.
>>And they look good, wow. Most subway cars look like twinkies on wheels to me anyway, so that's just a matter of opinion, as are most, if not all of your arguments.<<
No. Read the posts.
Are you always such a pig-headed moron? R-32's will be in service well after the redbirds, and R-38's-42's. Know your facts. Or, you can shut the hell up. You don't live in NYC. FINE. But the fact that the R-32 is not being retired until after the aforementioned cars is a fact that everyone on this site can plainly see.
>>>Are you always such a pig-headed moron? R-32's will be in service well after the redbirds, and R-38's-42's. Know your facts. Or, you can shut the hell up. You don't live in NYC. FINE. But the fact that the R-32 is not being retired until after the aforementioned cars is a fact that everyone on this site can plainly see.<<<
Did I say they wouldn't? Read the post Pussyfart. And how would even know yourself? You're just speculating for the most part. Do you work for the TA? Do you have access to their plans and proposals as it pertains to the R32 cars? Or, are you getting second hand info from another source such as a relative or a friend? Even though it may make you feel like a big boy to say you have an "inside source," unless you're working for the TA, you don't really know what the hell will happen. Your general subway knowledge, not objective observations, seems to be about as good as mine from your postings. In fact, I could go read the Subway FAQ and come back and know more than you. You're doing nothing more than taking unresearched opinions, glossing them up, and passing them off as fact. You can't say the R32 is the best built car becuase it's your favorite. Who knows, those R142s may be much better built than an R32. How would anyone here know that as they have not had the chance to prove themselves yet. You seem to know though. I suppose you can see the future and find out if the R142s will be as long lasting as your R32s. Well, check out this item on your next journey; do you have a brain in the future, and are you doing more than sitting on it?
Thanks.
Regard,
RTS_2150
>>Did I say they wouldn't? Read the post Pussyfart. And how would even know yourself? You're just speculating for the most part. Do you work for the TA? Do you have access to their plans and proposals as it pertains to the R32 cars? Or, are you getting second hand info from another source such as a relative or a friend? Even though it may make you feel like a big boy to say you have an "inside source," unless you're working for the TA, you don't really know what the hell will happen. Your general subway knowledge, not objective observations, seems to be about as good as mine from your postings. In fact, I could go read the Subway FAQ and come back and know more than you. You're doing nothing more than taking unresearched opinions, glossing them up, and passing them off as fact. You can't say the R32 is the best built car becuase it's your favorite. Who knows, those R142s may be much better built than an R32. How would anyone here know that as they have not had the chance to prove themselves yet. You seem to know though. I suppose you can see the future and find out if the R142s will be as long lasting as your R32s. Well, check out this item on your next journey; do you have a brain in the future, and are you doing more than sitting on it?<<
Go to the MTA's website. Look under capitol plans (or projects, whatever). The MTA has already decided that the R-32 will survive the R-160s, and will not be replaced until the next order of cars. Don't call me a pussyfart unless you know what you're talking about.
Thanks.
Opinions... everyone's got one..
"Best peice of NYC subway equipment"
--Quite a FINE way to stir up YET another debate
on your local SubTALK Channel...
Opinions... everyone's got one!
"Best peice of NYC subway equipment"
--Quite a FINE way to strike up yet ANOTHER
debate for the ages on this here SubTALK Channel
Hey 1SF9: I must agree!!! I too am very excited about the new fleet replacements coming out, but still steadfastly agree that the redbird series is by far the best. Its like the venerable VW Beetle- might be not the prettiest car in the entire world to look at, but still very tough, dependable, durable, with fairly good MDBF numbers, and summed up in a single word, TIMELESS. This is a good word particularly since some are approaching 40 years of age and use.
My favorite livery scheme is however, the classic TA dull silver with blue stripe, although the current "Redbird" red is neat and racy too. The short-lived white was OK too, 'cept it was almost an engraved invitation to every graffitti "writer" artist to come and tag the train as soon as it's new paint dried.
For the nearly $1.6 million per copy the new R-142s and R-142As cost, they obviously have a lot of bells and whistles that will only lead to obvious earlier and more frequent component failure. When you get right down to it, all subway cars are simply at their very core basically carbodies mounted on chassis suspended on steel flanged wheels driven by AC traction motors. Nothing I think we'll ever see will ever constitute a real giant bound in evolution on this principle, all we'll continue to see are minor and for the most part aesthetic and nice to have but not absolutely necessary electronic bells and whistle equipped trains.
The Redbird is the end result of a train designer starting from a fresh piece of paper, following basic and functional lines and form, and not including anything that doesn't absolutely just have to be included. And for being on in revenue service as long as they have been, nothwithstanding rebuilds, the MTA has really gotten their money's worth out of them.
I'm firmly against the ludicrous idea of sending even ONE of these priceless antiques to the bottom of the sea for artificial reefs inasmuch as they'd make a far better reserve fleet, should for example the majority of the R142x's develop some latent design flaw or defect that doesn't make itself known until most or all of them have been delivered and put into service. If this happens and most or all of the Redbird fleet has been scrapped or scuttled, the TA and it's riders will quite simply be SOL and without any real replacements, not unlike the nearly $1 Billion dollars of Grumman Flxibles that had to be sold for nearly nothing (aprx. $4 million) and replaced from scratch with GM RTS' in the 1980s.
Peace and GB, Thomas :-)
My favorites (in order):
R-10
R-38 (before GOH)
R-32
R-40 slant
R-16
R-17
R-1/9
R-21/22
R-30
R-27
R-29
R-33/36
This list is based on personal preference, NOT MDBF stats etc. I have ridden on all of these cars, operated some.
Marc
I dont care which cars you think are the "best". I want to know which are the shinyiest!!!.Please stick to MY topic next time.
Stick to your a**
I was responding to the "best" thread, not the "Shiniest" thread.
I dont care, STAY ON MY TOPIC
I hope you don't wear rings, seven!!!!!
I hope you don't wear rings, seven!!!!!
Why not? Rings might help identify the corpse if SeveN is run over while tagging trains. Cheaper than DNA analysis, that's for sure.
Yes but the sparks from his knuckles dragging along the pavement are likely to start a fire!
dont you people wish i was dead?
No. I don't. I wish this feud was over though. It's classic to say the least. Rebel Youth (You) vs. Authority in a Suit (Train Dude). Of course, the world is against you. I'm just the innocent bystander who happens to get killed and the feud ends with everyone shaking hands and having fresh ice cream sundaes. But, perhaps I watch too many movies.
Do what I did and killfile him.
This is not so in Humphrey Bogard Movies, he alwas wins with no guns or anything, but with his voice and his attitude
dont you people wish i was dead?
No. We're not barbarians here on SubTalk. Now, if you resume your train-tagging activities, I'd very much like to see you on Rikers Island. And if you did get run over in the process, while I wouldn't be happy, not exactly, I wouldn't be overcome with grief either. Get the distinction?
I dont think im gonna be getting caught, one reason is because i am just too good, you cant even imagine what i got away with before, second reason, i just dont frequent trains anymore, i will return ocasionally tho, since i have taken my work professionally. But thanks for the concern
I dont think im gonna be getting caught, one reason is because i am just too good, you cant even imagine what i got away with before, second reason, i just dont frequent trains anymore, i will return
ocasionally tho
It's when you start thinking you're too good to get caught, that you get caught.
See I know what you mean, I know my limits, thats my strength, I know my limits. I just Go upto the limits and not past them. I usually dont Push my luck
Of course i don't want you dead. Everyone on earth has a purpose - even if it's to serve as a horrible example......
aww, im touched, and what purpose might you lead?
There are so many responses I can't read them all and see what others have to say but will offer my 2 cents worth. You missed the IND R1-9 in your thoughts which to me was one dandy, durable piece of equipment.They were old technology when new but they did the job and moved, fast.Averaged some 40 years of service. The deferred maintenance of later years caught up with them and they became rather sick but held out while they were needed.
You mentioned the pre-unification IRT cars. They were built when their respective technologies were still almost in infancy; the old High-V, Low-V, Flivver and Steinway cars with the exception of the last ones built served the system an average of about 45 years, sometimes more. They survived the bankruptcy of the Interborough, World War II with I'm sure much of the skilled shop help away at war, and until their end between l955 and l964 were still maintaining the schedules they were built to maintain which were within some 10% margin of what the replacements were capable of.I know many people disagree but I loved them and appreciated what they represented and admired them for how well they were made and all the years they did a great job.
Everything has its time , we're thinking of l904-1925 equipment. Things move on and I've accepted that what was dear to me couldn't be forever and becomes obsolete. But that old stuff was great [for its time] and didn't owe anyone an apology.
My vote goes for the Triplexes. They kept going and going and going with virtually no maintenence, and who knows how long they would have kept rolling had it not been for the TA's dimwitted idea of slaughtering them just because they were "nonstandard". As Mister Bill was so fond of saying, define nonstandard.
The prewar stuff was built to last, and it did.
Why did the TA refurbish 400 Standards around 1959 for prolonged service on the Eastern Division (until 1970) when they could have done the same to the newer Triplexes ?
Because they were morons. Triplexes were the best idea, an articulated car means less parts. But i guess TA officials liked the Standards better. I don't know why.
I think the answer is a simple question of arithmetic. 600 feet of R type equipment is roughly 800,000 pounds/40 axles = 20,00 pounds per axle. 600 feet of D types = 960,000 pounds/24 axles = 40,000 pounds per axle. So while you may save minimally on car maintenance, our track and structure maintenance would increase dramaticly.
...600 feet of D types = 960,000 pounds/24 axles = 40,000 pounds per axle. ...
Let's see. Each D-Type was 137 feet long, weighed on average 210,000 lbs. and was supported by 4 trucks each with 2 axles. Each car also carried 555 people @ 150 lbs each for an additional 83,000 lbs., bringing the D-Type weight up to 300,000 lbs
That means a 4 car train was 548 feet long, weighed 1,200,000 lbs loaded and 840,000 unloaded and had an axle load of 37,500 lbs. loaded and 26,250 unloaded.
The axle weight of the Triplexes blew everything else out of the water. Even the BMT standards didn't come close. That's why they could and did run on the Jamaica line while the Triplexes could not. The 1885 segment above Fulton St. couldn't support that kind of axle weight.
That said, the Triplexes could have been used exclusively on underground routes and operated via tunnel.
IIRC my archives show the Fulton st. stretch of the J built in l893.But I could be mistaken. The oldest Brooklyn el was the Lex built l885. I expect the Fulton el nearly the same (but that didn't run on Fulton in East NY, ran on Pitkin.]
You're probably right. I stand corrected. 1885 stood out for some reason, but now that you mention it, so does 1893.
The axle weight of the Triplexes blew everything else out of the water. Even the BMT standards didn't come close.
Not necessarily. According to the literature of the time the IRT motors had roughly comparable axle loads. Moreover, the maximum axle load for any rolling stock was limited by 31,000 lbs, not figure of 40,000 lbs.
That said, the Triplexes could have been used exclusively on underground routes and operated via tunnel.
Interestingly, the Triplexes were supposed to be used in the Tunnel, when they were purchased, if one were to believe the articles in the Transit Journal from that time.
Your last paragraph speaks volumes Steve. Thank God the Triplexes did not run exclusively underground. One of the great thrills of my childhood was riding the Triplex #4 Sea Beach on the open cut and whizzing through the mini-tunnels enroute to Coney Island. For me there was nothing like it. Hell, take a look at my handle. It says it all.
The heaviest IRT motor cars were created when the some of the l904 Gibbs were converted to MUDC, creating a car that weighed 89,140 lbs or so, almost 45 tons. Before MUDC they weighed about 43 tons, a shademore tha the 1907 Deckroofs. The Standard body or Hedley cars ran from almost 39 to almost 41 tons, I do have exact weights if you want them, dpending on High V or Low V, MUDC or not, etc. Trailers ran about 28 tons. 7 motors, 3 trailers the norm, all cars 51 feet.Even though the BMT standards were lighter than the D types they didn't come in that much heavier than the IRT stuff size for size.BTW my shop friend and IRT guru of my youth advised me that the old IRT motor truck alone weighed 12 tons....6 for the truck and 3 for each motor, they looked almost the same as the diesel loco motors. Guess they pack a lot more power into the same space now.
How many components did they have to add to those cars to make them MUDC other than door engines? That seems like an awful lot of extra weight. I know they had center doors added, but their vestibule doors remained (brutally) maunally operated.
How many components did they have to add to those cars to make them MUDC other than door engines? That
seems like an awful lot of extra weight. I know they had center doors added, but their vestibule doors remained
(brutally) maunally operated.
That was only the case with the Deckroofs and a handful of the
standard Hi-V cars. The rest of the Hi-Vs were converted to full
MUDC operation ca 1922.
I meant to include "open cut" as well as "underground". Sorry about that. I can only imagine what the Manhattan Bridge had to endure whenever a Triplex train crossed over it. It probebly moaned, "Oh, my aching deck!".
It would be very interesting to have a camera attached to the towers in each opposing direction, to actually "see" the flexing from a heavy load on the Bridge, such as a Triplex unit might cause.
>The 1885 segment above Fulton St. couldn't support that kind of axle weight.
But did so on fantrips.
So if weight was an major issue, why were the newer MS's albeit a small fleet) scrapped in 1958 before the elderly Standards were overhauled ?
So if weight was an major issue, why were the newer MS's albeit a small fleet) scrapped in 1958 before the elderly Standards were overhauled ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Joe: The speedy Multis unfortunately were a non-standard piece of equiptment at a time when the TA was going very strongly into fleet standardization. The arrival of the R-27's and their cousins the R-30's and R-30A's spelled the end for the Multis,SIRT MUE-1's,BMT Lo-V's and the unre-built Standards. The arrival of the R-32A's and R-32's put an end to the D-Types. All cars from the R-10's through the R-42's could mu with each other although it was not pratical to combine IRT and B Division cars except on shop moves.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Here's something you might get a kick outta ... there WERE consists at rush hours only where they DID mix in some redbirds with IND cars. It was very rare, but it was done with the conductor furiously warning people to watch the gap between the redbirds and the platforms. Things got really bad for a while with deferred (nonexistent?) maintenance and getting anything that would roll at all to roll for rush hour.
They probably could have used some of the old cars back then.
Where and When ?
'70 and '71, IND mainline manhattan. Also seen on Brighton line. It was rare, but it was done and in revenue runs.
The Legal Dept most have passed blood when they became aware of that.
Were any memos or G.O. posted about No more of That?
avid
It seemed to have been a short-lived practice during the very worst of the car shortage crisis ... that happened at about the time when a bankrupt NYC realized they finally had to do something about the subways though it took several years to recover. New cars were arriving at the time as well but they were pretty seriously short of actually "rolling" stock.
When the A/C equipped R-42s showed up, politicians suddently came out of the woodwork clamoring for the new units to be used on the lines their constituents rode. So instead of all the cars being assigned to one shop, they were scattered around the B division, so much so, that you could often see R-42s and R-32s, or R-42s and R-38s, or R-42s and R-30s in mixed consists on many of the former BMT lines. I used to see this all the time on the Brighton Line in 1970 - 1972. My apartment overlooked the Brighton Beach station, and I never failed to watch the rush hour end, so I got to see lots of these mixed consists. Even used to fall asleep on the window sill (with the window closed, of course :)
--Mark
That was when smorgasbord trains were commonly seen on IND and BMT routes. I never saw any IRT cars in an IND/BMT consist; the only mixed trains I ever saw were R-32s and R-42s on the D. My impression is that the yard crews didn't bother to sort out the various cars after yard moves and just left them coupled together as they were.
At least I saw the R-10s in solid trains only.
[the only mixed trains I ever saw were R-32s and R-42s on the D.]
I remember riding such a train a couple of years ago on the N line. Six R42 cars and four R32 cars made the train. That's when they were running 6-car J trains to Myrtle Avenue only, 4-car M trains (of R40 slants) to Marcy Avenue where they built a temporary island platform over the middle track, and the Williamsburg Bridge was closed to subway trains.
Yes, that was during the time they were redoing the switches north of WTC. I heard about that mixed set. The ones I saw were 30-plus years ago, and it drove me nuts. I never was fond of mixed consists, preferring solid trains. They did it all the time on the IRT, but since everything from the R-17s thru the mainline R-36s looked similar, it wasn't that big of a deal.
And even the R10's weren't immune to this practice, as this pic shows:
Some people were doubting that pneumatic door cars (i.e. R10) could be mixed with other cars.
I had the same doubts; however, Train Dude explained all of that and set me straight. Basically, the R-10s had the same H-2-C couplers and electric portions as all other SMEE cars, with the same pin assignments. Their doors responded to whatever control device being used (trigger, lever, key switch, or button). While their door engines were pneumatic, their door controls themselves were electric. (Even the R-1/9s had electric door controls with pneumatic door engines.) Because of this, the R-10s were indeed fully compatible with all other SMEE cars, and while they could be found intermixed in trains with other cars as the photo attests, this wasn't done often. And as with the R-12s and R-14s, the R-10s were kept on the ends of trains when intermixed with other cars so the conductor would not have to assume the position.
Wow! What a weird lashup!
--Mark
The first and last (at the time) SMEE cars in the same train. It does look weird to anyone accustomed to seeing the R-10s in nothing except solid trains.
Can you imagine riding in this train in the summertime? Everyone crammed into the 2 or 4 air conditioned R42's while the oven-ish R10's are virtually empty.
Did people do that on the IRT in the 1970's ? I didn't notice that to be the case. They would get on an R12-22 like lemings even if an R26-36 was the next car. I don't know how many people I told including my mother to go for 7750+. None of them knew better and later thanked me.
I quit and left NYC in l977 and at that time a/c cars on the IRT were few. When did the R26-36 get a/c as a fleet? Thought it was with GOH in the 80's?
Yes. The R-33/36 MLs (mainly on the 6) got them first in 1977, followed by the R-33/36WF cars on the 7, which also were repained in the MTA corporate color scheme at the time. Then they worked them way down to the R-29s and the R-26/28.
The R-26 through R-36s did have slightly better blowers on their fans before than (definitely better than the R-15s), so they were usually a little cooler than the R-12 through R-22s, but not that much. The reverse was true on the B Division -- the newer the non ACed cars, the hotter they seemed to be, and nothing on the planet was hotter than an R-40 4150-4349 during the summer.
I know what you mean about the fans on the R38 and R40 and I think on the later half of the R32's IIRC. Instead of having the usual louvres that the bulk of the SMEE fleet had they had a flat plate with holes.This was believe it or not chosen by public vote including mine when they had 4 test fan cars parked at 34th/6th before there was 4-track operation there...l964 or so.
The reason the newer pattern won out was the reduction of the annoying harsh draft from the established system which could be annoying....but appreciated on a HOT day! Guess it wan't a very hot time of year when the votes were cast as yes, the newer setup was not very good!
The R32's which had those lousy fan covers were the last 150: 3800 to 3949. Those covers tended to have a huge black ring of schmutz around the outside, unlike the other cars.
After seeing that picture, wouldn't there be any compatibility problems? IMO, i can't see a B-IV being coupled to an old Broad Street Subway car because of that.That would be my thinking.
In Noo Yawk, the TA has always been big on standardization, at least on revenue cars ... until lately anyway. :)
You sure those weren't the R27/R30 "redbirds" you are remembering? I'd think Joe Testagrose or Doug Grotjahn or someone would have had photos of mixed IRT/IND car consists... But I've never seen one.
I once saw a couple of R32 cars with some rider cars (which would be any R14, 15, 17, 21, or 22 car) on the same train. I think that would count.
Well, maybe, but all bets are off during work service. Especially since the issue of passenger safety had been brought up earlier in this thread. That wouldn't be an issue during work service.
Just yesterday week we did some yard moves with money cars OR/IR719 coupled to 4 R-32's. I was happy because now I could say I moved A div. cars, particularly the R-21/22's I so liked growing up, and which you can't ride in passenger service any more (and you would have to pick "Subdivision C: Miscellaneous equipment" to get a regular job moving them).
But In passenger service? I don't think so, ever. This definitely would have been mentioned in the transit clubs and subway history books. If the old Q cars and others would receive extended sills to operate on the BMT, it seems it was never within policy to run unextended cars and just warn the customers to watch the gap.
Dunno what to say, but I personally rode such a consist northbound out of 59th street on the D ... 32's and redbirds, two of them. Owing to the novelty, I rode one of the redbirds to 205th. May have been unusual, but it had been done. Wasn't doing drugs at the time either. :)
They really were IRT cars ... VERY obvious because of the nearly one foot gap between the cars and the platform edge, along with the announcements to be careful stepping on and off those cars from the conductors. Wasn't done very often, but it was done for about a year during the height of the car shortages.
Must have been Flushing cars on the D train mixed with R32s ?
Mainliners actually ... and they were also seen on the B and AA as well. 207th yard seemed to be the common denominator.
If that's the case than the MTA and/or its insurers have gotten a lot more cautious in the last 30 years, since they apparently rejected the idea of putting skirt extenders on some of the R-26/28/29 Redbirds for use on the B Division to make up for the car shortage between the time the 63rd St. connector officially opens for V train service and the R-143s arrive.
The idea makes sense to me, but reporttedly, the fear of kids riding on the door platform ledges outside the cars shot down the idea among the MTA brass. God knows what the same people today would have thought about running trains with a one-foot gap between the platform and cars, especially on the elevated lines (little signs on the el supports at street level saying "Beware of falling people," I guess).
It was chit-chat among ourselves, I started some of it, but did the MTA/TA really take it seriously to discuss it themselves ?
I beleive Bill from Maspeth posted that the idea had been brought up and rejected quickly because of the threat of "side riders" on the Redbirds, though I don't think he said how high up the idea was when it was tossed.
That "foot" was either seven or nine inches actually, but it was WIDE. And yeah, you could easily have people drop. I can't remember now, but it might have actually happened back then. The mongrel trains didn't last very long, but they really did try it.
I've seen the Flushing transfers coming through the 60th Street tube late night and into the Lex station. The first time you see it, it is jarring.
What really would have been interesting would have been to see an IRT train running through DeKalb in the early 1950s, before the station reconfiguration when there was a gap at the south end even for the Mulits and Standards. You'd have to have been Carl Lewis or Bob Beamon to get onto the A Division trains there :-)
Presumably the end cars were B Division for purposes of the signal tripcocks, unless they used the dually equipped A Division that are used to shuttle Flushing cars to Coney Island Yards and other parts of the A Division.
Anyone know how many dually equipped A-Division cars exist ?
I would have guessed they would have been mixed in with R-10s, since their paint schemes were similar. The R-10s were pretty much kept by themselves, although they were occasionally tacked onto the ends of trains of R-42s and/or R-32s.
I find this hard to believe. No logical reason would exist to do such a radical thing. Even the mid 60's R1-9 emergency in Jamaica only prompted the city to bring some recently retired Standards back in service.
According to my "Cars of the BMT" book, the entire MS fleet had awful braking characteristics. They often overshot stations and ran red lights. Once the section of the Fulton El from 80th St. to Atlantic Ave. was closed in 1956, the main reason for running these cars (they could traverse the older unrebuilt el lines) disappeared.
Your point? I rounded off the numbers for the sake of convenience. The point I was trying to make is that the D types were harder on track and roadbed. Do you disagree? Do you ever do anything besides nitpick numbers? You have to be the biggest bore in town.
T Dude:
The D types were heavy, true. But with todays alloys and technology, couldn't that concept (articulated units) be used to make cars that were lighter on structures? Granted, D types were heavy, But What they made articulateds today? That concept is still the best idea.
Hmmmmmm! There are pro's and cons. However, if you follow the TA's current logic to link cars into 4 & 5 car links, I suppose your idea is the next logical step. That's not to say that I agree. Right now I can unlink and mix cars from other links in an hour or two. Articulated cars are far more difficult to do this with.
Another thought. If you want to articulate 60' cars, you'd possibly run into clearance problems. Currently, truck centers on an average 60' car is 44'7" If you articulate them the end cars would have truck centers of more than 52' and the center car(s) would be over 60'. Clearly, these cars would sweep wider on the curves and might scrape bench walls. (Truck centers on 75' cars are only 54'.
WARNING !! NUMBERS ARE APPROXIMATE ONLY AND ARE MEANT TO BE ACCURATE WITHIN A FEW INCHES ONLY. I APOPOGIZE FOR ANY DISTRESS THIS MAY CAUSE CERTAIN SUBTALKERS.
>>Hmmmmmm! There are pro's and cons. However, if you follow the TA's current logic to link cars into 4 & 5 car links, I suppose your idea is the next logical step. That's not to say that I agree. Right now I can unlink and mix cars from other links in an hour or two. Articulated cars are far more difficult to do this with.<<
You might be able to do this with R-68/As, But this can't be done with the R-44/46 fleet, or the R-62/ part of 62A fleet. Articulateds are basically 44/46 type concepts.
(Note: R-62's have had thier cabs somewhat modified, so it's pretty near impossible to switch them around, and if you do it's a pain)(Note2: this was not directed to you T Dude.)
>>Another thought. If you want to articulate 60' cars, you'd possibly run into clearance problems. Currently, truck centers on an average 60' car is 44'7" If you articulate them the end cars would have truck centers of more than 52' and the center car(s) would be over 60'. Clearly, these cars would sweep wider on the curves and might scrape bench walls. (Truck centers on 75' cars are only 54'.<<
I didn't mean to do this with 60 footers. I meant with smaller units.
And, How about bringing back 67' units? Larger cars, smaller fleet size can be brought to BMT East. R-110b was an example of 67' cars. Apparently the TA doesn't like them. But what about you?
>>> Right now I can unlink and mix cars from other links in an hour or two. Articulated cars are far more difficult to do this with <<<
Obviously if the TA were to go with artics they would have to be designed for the system, which would mean units shorter than 60' and it might not take any longer to substitute units if specialized handling equipment were available in the yards. For it to happen, the TA would have to take the decision to eventually convert the whole fleet through attrition over 40 years. Given the need to work with politically approved budgets, and the likelihood that no savings would be realized until a good percentage of the fleet were converted, it is doubtful that it could ever happen.
Tom
>>which would mean units shorter than 60' and it might not take any longer to substitute units if specialized handling equipment were available in the yards. For it to happen, the TA would have to take the decision to eventually convert the whole fleet through attrition over 40 years. Given the need to work with politically approved budgets, and the likelihood that no savings would be realized until a good percentage of the fleet were converted, it is doubtful that it could ever happen.<<
D type efficiency. In other words: Running cars like the D types were run!
I don't care how you slice it, dice, rice it or mice it, the Triplex was one humungus train, powerful and stylish, a real hunk. There has never been a train like it, and if you don't agree with me that's your privilege but it will not change my mind one iota. A Triplex #4 Sea Beach? Priceless.
Fred:
I said that I think the D types were the best equipment ever. That's what this thread is about. My initial post stated that R-32's were the best cars in service and D types were the best ever.
Just reinforcing you my man, just reinforcing you. Now get behind me and defend my Sea Beach.
Well..... I'm a Culver fan (apparently the only one). But after that, I like the Sea Beach (Those cool express tracks. No other line has that.)
Thanks. I needed that. Now if we could repair those express tracks on my Sea Beach, we could run both locals and expresses on it. Then we can work out a deal to get my train over the Manny B again, then finalize it by having a fan trip using those three remaining Triplexes on an EXPRESS trip to Coney Island with me manning the railfan window. That would make me quite contented, at least for a day or so.
Right now I can unlink and mix cars from other links in an hour or two.
I certainly applaud what appears to be a new found appreciation for availability. How often does this occur in practice - sending out a link set that has a car out of sequence? Swapping number plates doesn't count:-)
Articulated cars are far more difficult to do this with.
Any articulated cars should to be designed to achieve comparable availability with single unit cars. This is not a theoretical impossibility.
The D types were heavy, true. But with todays alloys and technology, couldn't that concept (articulated units) be used to make cars that were lighter on structures?
That answer came only 6 years after the last D-type was delivered, almost 70 years ago, with the Green Hornet and its direct decendant - the Multis.
The 5-section Green Hornet was 170 feet long and weighed 170,000 lbs., was supported by 6 trucks, each with 2 axles. This works out to axle loading of 14,166 lbs.
I rounded off the numbers for the sake of convenience.
What you did was to calculate the weight for 4 cars and divide it by the number of axles for 3 cars.
The point I was trying to make is that the D types were harder on track and roadbed.
I thought your point was that the costs associated with the increased wear that the D-types infliced on the roadbed more than compensated for their reduced maintenance cost.
Do you disagree?
I agree that the D-types had marginally higher axle loading than their contemporary (1924-1928) fleet. The loading was no where near as high as you suggested.
Your point?
I do not have sufficient data to determine whether or not the D-type's low maintenance cost was offset by increased maintenance of way cost. Your argument, that it might have been true, is based on incorrect numbers.
Do you ever do anything besides nitpick numbers?
Numbers are the easiest thing to verify. There can be little cogency for any agument, if it flunks this simple test.
You have to be the biggest bore in town.
There is a great folklore regarding operational decisions over the last 125 years. There have been a many rationalizations to cover up bad managerial decisions. Simple statements cannot always be accepted at face value.
The relentless pursuit for finding truth in these pronouncements can indeed be lonely and boring. :-)
Now with this information, how do you explain how the D types were able to serve on the Franklin Ave. shuttle years ago? If they were too heavy for the Eastern division of the BMT, then how did they manage the shuttle tracks just north of Park Place station, which were built on a very skeletal looking structure? You cannot see that now, since the line has been rebuilt, but I wondered about that segment of the line.
They got a rush for the word "standards" and viewed the trips as being anything but ... regulatory evenness to assuage the civil service mindset ... even the old wooden el cars were considered "standard" compared to the trips.
I'd hardly call the Q's standard but they survived until l969 on the Myrtle el thanks to weight restrictions. I was sure glad to have them around that long, and have the chance to run them for 2 years after my promotion. Right on. If only they hadn't cut the rooves down ruining their looks, and wish they had put the retired BU's trucks back on them [which would have been there original type trucks and motors]so they could move better. But glad to have them.
Had they been able to mount the Qs on their original Peckman (sp) trucks, or if they didn't have to go to CIY for heavy repairs, there would have been no need to chop their roofs. They sat higher up on the Composites' maximum traction trucks
You're a geniune AMUE man, the prewars were the mightiest AND sturdiest!!
The redbirds are marginibly better. While the R32 has all the same things as the redbirds, the R32 is just another silver train on the tracks and the crimson on the redbirds is really cool! The redbirds have performed very well despite their age. Give the redbirds some credit! They are still going even though they are way past their life expectancy. Redbirds are better than R32s but R32s are second.
The R62 is pretty good, the R44 and higher on the B Division is trash.
Except for size and stainless steel vs. LAHT steel construction the R26 thru R36 are mechanically almost all the same!
I before E except after C. PIEce of equipment.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
On purely subjective and superficial grounds:
IRT: All IRTs look pretty good to me. But the R62/R62A is my favorite. Simple, understated, and reasonably comfortable.
BMT/IND: I like the R40 and R42--the slants for their general funkiness, and the R40M and R42 for their dinified simplicity. Something about the look just says "New York City".
My least favorite in terms of looks are the R44 and R46, mostly for the huge, monotonous grey breadbox exterior, but also for the the cramped seating arangement (very uncomfortable to sit forward or backwards if you have long legs), a problem shared with the R68. The R68 is a close second in the ugly department, though the shinier exterior makes the difference between a grey breadbox and a silver breadbox. Funny though, the R68 (and to a lesser the degree the R44/46) is somehwat similar in appearance to the R62, but its sheer size just makes the look ugly.
:-) Andrew
The TA's philosophy has always been "boxes that move people," emphasis on "boxes" ... good thing the philosophy wasn't "bringing geese to market," huh?
......any " RAILFAN WINDOW " equipped rail transit car gets my # 1 vote for being the BEST EQUIPMENT !!
What a relief. I thought I was the only one who liked the R-42.
Overall, I agree with most of your assessments. The R-40 and R-40M lose some points, IMO, for the uncomfortable seating (I know, I really should be up at the railfan window, but occasionally I'm tired or somebody's beaten me to it).
As for the IRT, the R-62(A) isn't bad but I prefer the Redbirds, especially with the new full-width cabs.
>>My least favorite in terms of looks are the R44 and R46, mostly for the huge, monotonous grey breadbox exterior, but also for the the cramped seating arangement (very uncomfortable to sit forward or backwards if you have long legs),<<
And the R-40s are better? Their seats are really bad, with short backs that are quite strange to sit on.
And I think that the R-44/46 are the BEST looking cars. They're curved in the front (storm door, etc.). And they just generally look more 'professional' than the R40 series (which looks sort of like they're, well, rumpled). The R-44/46 interior colors are the best of any subway car.
But as far as performance, both groups of cars mentioned are lacking.
Hi All-
has anyone been by the station renovations on the uptown side of the Broadway N,R? Are they completed? How does it look? Last time I was by there, they had just ripped down the 60s tile and exposed the dirty tablets.
Michael B
>>has anyone been by the station renovations on the uptown side of the Broadway N,R? Are they completed? How does it look? Last time I was by there, they had just ripped down the 60s tile and exposed the dirty tablets.<<
Actually, construction on the stations will not be completed until 2004. (Can be found on ta's website). Thus, the stations will still look fairly rough, even after the N/R begin stopping there again.
They won't be dirty for long - they will all eventually look as good as the ones at 5th Avenue station further uptown. They have to close the stations to tear down the old work and lay the new platform surfaces; the detail work will take much longer to complete and will be done with the stations proper open, much like what was done at Cortlandt Street in 1996-1997.
wayne
Well, the only thing they have completed is the platforms.
What really gets me is that whoever decided to spend money there must have been nuts! There was nothing really wrong with those stations, and I can name few in dire need.
Arti
According to the new take-ones at Canal:
"We're accelerating work on these platforms to prepare for the increase in service on the Broadway line that will be caused by the rehabilitation of the Manhattan Bridge beginning this summer."
It also references "major structural repairs," but I've no idea how desperate the need for repair was.
I assume the work was done now since the Broadway stations see light traffic and the express tracks are otherwise unused.
Soon the Broadway BMT will be flooded with traffic. Even when (if?) both sides of the bridge are open, it will see more traffic than it does today.
>>I assume the work was done now since the Broadway stations see light traffic and the express tracks are otherwise unused.<<
Downtown express trakcs are in use. The local platform at those stations sees ALL Broadway service.
>>Soon the Broadway BMT will be flooded with traffic. Even when (if?) both sides of the bridge are open, it will see more traffic than it does today.<<
The South side of the bridge will see more traffic beginning in July, when it will be the ONLY side of the bridge open. Basically you'll have the B, D and Q running on the express tracks with the N and R on the locals. 5 train lines is a lot of traffic.
Now had the Morningside Heights line or its abreviated extension from 57th St. and 7th Ave. to CPW at 86th St ever been built , the D and B could have returned to de Bronx in a single ride.
Just pipe dreams like most of the plans that make sense.
avid
Before Christie Street Broadway had these lines:
Brighton Local and 95th Street Local on the local Track
Sea Beach, West End Expresses (7 days) and Brighton Express(weekdays)on the express track. Broadway handled these before and can do so aghain.
"Before Christie Street Broadway had these lines:
Brighton Local and 95th Street Local on the local Track
Sea Beach, West End Expresses (7 days) and Brighton Express(weekdays)on the express track. Broadway handled these before and can do so aghain."
I wonder why they moved those services from Broadway?
N Bwy
Sixth avenue had one southern route: Culver. Kindofa waste of a 4 track line.
By the 60s, the West End Express (3 or T) had been reduced to a rush hour and daytime Saturday service. It didn't operate during midday on weekdays, nights, or Sundays. On Saturdays, it terminated at 57th St. instead of Astoria.
I was on 23rd Street on Monday, only thing completed are the new platform edges. Most of the platform surface is unfinished. They have temporary WOODEN railings for entrances.
I saw 4 guys drilling a hole into the ceiling (actually 1 was drilling, the others were watching.) There's no way they'll finish anything when the flip occurs. The work is planned to be finished 2003.
Arti
Gee, how many workers does it take to drill a hole in the ceiling, let alone change a light bulb?:-)
LOL!
BTW, I think the hole they were drilling was lighting related :-)
Arti
Unless, of course, the other guys were telling the one with the drill how they could do it better.:-)
You could be right, I was far away enough not to hear clearly, but, it sounded like that.
Arti
Of course not. But they're finishing (I hope!) all the work that requires the local track to be vacated when there's room on the express track. If they tried that after the flip, five lines -- the N/Q/Q/R/W -- would have to share the same track. Sounds messy to me.
The question is, why in the first place? As if there are no more stations in the system, not seeing a renovation for many more decades tha those.
Arti
Because this is the last chance, hopefully forever, for the TA to shut down the local stations for months at a time. Once regular service fills up both the local and the express tracks, all tracks will need to be in use, at least every day during rush hour.
That exclusive chance still takes til 2004. Rest of the sytem gets renovated without those privileges.
Last point, I've seen many more "deferred maintenance" stations, IMHO those were quite OK, perhaps too 60ties.
Arti
>>The work is planned to be finished 2003.<<
2004.
Was in Lex IRT's Wall St station today, leaked like in a sewer. Otherwise looked like BW stations (new tile old style platform edges.)
I still fail to see the point to spend money on those stations, and isn't the Manny B supposed to be fixed by 2004?
Arti
The Manny B's current repair schedule will have all four tracks ready for trains by 2004. Some repairs to walkways, finishing touches, other things will go on for at least a couple of years after that.
What objection do you have to repairs and maintenance in IRT stations?
[What objection do you have to repairs and maintenance in IRT stations? ]
None, point is that those Broadway line stations were OK, better than many of much heavily used stations(like my Wall St observation.)
Now they suddely pretty much tore those stations down right before ther could be more ridership, and the renovation is going to last until the repears on the bridge will be finished.
I recommend to take N or R and take a look yourself.
Arti
Repairs can be scheduled awkwardly sometimes.
Of course, now that they are in progress, there is nothing to do but bug them and hope they complete the work on time.
[Of course, now that they are in progress, there is nothing to do but bug them and hope they complete the work on time. ]
I don't see that they couldn't do it on time (2003 or 4 depending whom to believe)
Arti
From the MTA website:
"When the stations reopen additional rehabilitation work will continue until early 2003."
They still have dirty / missing tile, and the ends of the platform have only cinder block walls. Tomorrow the sides swap again.
I went to the museum yesterday. I got there at 4pm because McDonalds had me working late because the afternoon crew was late. Arghhhh!. Anyway so I took the E. I enjoyed yesterdays railfanning because the E was express in Manhattan. I knew this because the T/O took a bottom green at the X-23 ball leading it to the middle track at 42nd. I was so happy, especially for the R46 E to blaze through 23rd at 45mph. I loved it. So I rode this E to Chambers and helped some poor souls get to their destinations in brooklyn without their precious A Train. Don't get me wrong, but I like the A Train alot. I just hate it when New Yorkers don't read signs and then they wonder where the A is after 30 minutes! Anyway the best part of Railfanning was riding a uptown D back over the bridge after giving a tour at the Museum. I haven't ridden the North side in years. I mentioned this to my Dad, A B/O and he told me he rode the south side before. I can't wait to ride that later this year. I hope the MTA will figure out this G problem before August. I wanna see an R46 pull in with the V sign on that day, so I can ride the V, then transfer to the W. By the way has training for the W line started yet?
>>I enjoyed yesterdays railfanning because the E was express in Manhattan. I knew this because the T/O took a bottom green at the X-23 ball leading it to the middle track at 42nd. I was so happy, especially for the R46 E to blaze through 23rd at 45mph. I loved it.<<
Thanks to that GO. 44's do that too, but you really can't see the speedometer.
>>I hope the MTA will figure out this G problem before August<<
There should be no problem. Just run the G to Queens Pl. sta. instead of Ct. sq, and then you can transfer to Queens trains on the same platform. 'Course, TA brains haven't thought of this.
Why run the G to Court Square? That is a BIG WASTE what MTA is doing with the new plan with the G.
Dominick Bermudez.
>'Course, TA brains haven't thought of this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought so too, but I spoke to some brass at January's hearing, and what they said is that they fear having people complain "if it runs to QP off-hours, why can't it run there weekdays, too?" Of course, it would tie up the railroad on weekdays, but I guess they don't feel like having to explain that to everyone.
They have but to turn trains as QP during rush hours, you tie up all four tracks. I think turning trains at QP on weeeknds though makes sense and should be done.
I just can't wait for the R-68's to run on the G. And I say that it is a good replacement to the R-46's on G. Since that line do OPTO's doing late night's and weekend's.
Dominick Bermudez.
>>And I say that it is a good replacement to the R-46's on G. Since that line do OPTO's doing late night's and weekend's.<<
R-46's can OPTO, and R-68's will do it 24/7.
As of Late summer 2001. G will become fully OPTO subway line. Will become the 3 subway line that is fully OPTO subway line.And Yes. The R-68's will run 24/7.
Dominick Bermudez.
The tracks will be returned to the TA by the DOT in April or May, then route familiarization will begin.
I'll be right in the middle of training, and on our schedule, I see all the current B-div routes for our road operations practice, so I wonder if we'll squeeze the new lines in. If the actual service change remains set for Juy 2nd as I've beard, we'll be in our 3rd week of road posting. I wonder if we can get on any first or last trains during the night of the changeover.
When the Manhattan Bridge reroutes go into effect, service at Grand St. will go from three lines (B,D.Q) to just a shuttle operation between it and Broadway Lafayette. This is a heavily patronized station especially at rush hours, and the community, as well as merchants, aren't happy about the service reduction.
There have been community meetings with the TA, one of which I attended, and the TA is considering a few alternatives. So far, the only concession they have made is to provide bus service between the Canal St. Sta. of the N/R and Grand St. This will probably be a slow service because of heavy traffic on Canal St. and the limited capacity of busses.
Other alternatives are extending the shuttle to W.4th or W.34th, but that will increase waiting time. The shuttle can operate on 1 track only because there is no crossover at Grand St.
Any further suggestions?
Instead of busing people from Grand ST to Canal St. Just bus people from Grand ST to Broadway-Lafayette ST instead. And I do think that haveing the Grand ST shuttle is a bad idea.
THERE GO'S WHAT HAPPIN BACK IN 1995.
Dominick Bermudez.
I suggest walking! I was in the area yesterday, took me about 5 minutes to walk, in spite of bazaar-like conditions on the street.
Arti
Here's a thought:
What moron planners didn't put a crossover at Grand? All other large water crossings have double crossovers at each end or within reasonable distance, even the Rockaway line bridges!
A similiar situation would cut off High St and/or Fulton St on he A/C.
IND for you!
Arti
Here's a thought:
Install one and terminate the V at Grand. Probably too expensive, but Grand St. needs a scissor crossover anyway.
If headways are great enough, the V could terminate at Grand as is. Switch from local to express north of W4 and run on the express track to Grand. Then wrong-rail through Broadway-Lafayette (allowing a cross-platform transfer for those going from Grand to Brooklyn on the F), switch to the NB express track, and stop at W4. Switch back to the local track past W4. (I think that's right. I looked at the track maps a week or two ago.)
How long would that move take? Specifically, once a train enters B-L, all following trains will have to wait at that point. If that pushes headways too high, have the V alternate between Grand and 2nd. Even at reduced headways, I think a full 6th Avenue line to Grand would be much more useful than a two-stop shuttle that connects with only 1.5 other lines.
GUYS,
How long would it take to build a scissor crossover between Grand Street and the Bridge?
N Bwy
>>How long would it take to build a scissor crossover between Grand Street and the Bridge?<<
Well, if there were no traffic, it should take no more than, say 2-3 months.
Not practical since you'd have to cut a good stretch of wall down between the uptown and bridge-bound tracks. Add to that the significant grade in that area and that switch would probably cause a good number of derailments.
--Mark
"Not practical since you'd have to cut a good stretch of wall down between the uptown and bridge-bound tracks. Add to that the significant grade in that area and that switch would probably cause a good number of derailments."
Hmmmm. That's awful. I'm sure they (MTA) can find a better solution to this problem.
N Bwy
run the Q into Queens, have the V be a shuttle from 57/6 to Grand.
[Other alternatives are extending the shuttle to W.4th or W.34th, but that will increase waiting time. The shuttle can operate on 1 track only because there is no crossover at Grand St.
Any further suggestions?]
My track map shows a crossover right above Broadway-Lafayette, so I'm not sure I understand why extending the shuttle to 4th or 34th would add time.
So -- run real express service rather than a shuttle using one platform at Grand and Broadway-Lafayette, two tracks above. Better yet, skip the Broadway-Lafayette stop to further reduce headway. And while they're at it, take some of the 63rd Street service onto the express tracks above West 4th to restore the express line to full operation. And while they're at it, instead of terminating the V in Manhattan, try shifting JMZ service to the old K route and see if it increases the popularity of the line . . .
Because only one train can occupy the track south of that point. Throw in time for passengers to get on and off the train, hold the doors, and the crew to take a piss break, and you're running into a problem of trains waiting to use too much single track.
-Hank
[Because only one train can occupy the track south of that point. Throw in time for passengers to get on and off the train, hold the doors, and the crew to take a piss break, and you're running into a problem of trains waiting to use too much single track.]
But exactly the same thing holds true for the shuttle. So while it wouldn't give you 30 tph, it wouldn't be any slower than the shuttle alternative, and you'd save the latency of a transfer and the Broadway-Lafayette loading time.
Station dwell time would be no higher than it is with current service if they switched off crews, so the only time you're talking about is the time it would take the single train to traverse the tunnel both ways, exchange passengers (and it would be almost empty at that point), and move through the switch on the way back. Seems to me -- and I'm just guessing here, because I haven't actually timed anything -- they could get 15 tph or so, in which case a Grand Street passenger would lose only 1 minute on average compared to current service. And moving trains to the express track above West 4th would mean that Broadway-Lafayette and West 4th Street passengers would have about the same service level they have now, rather than 2/3 the service with no express.
I realize that traditionally the crew takes a break at the end of the line, but couldn't that tradition be waived given the circumstances? Let the crew take its break at W4, where passengers can make useful connections and the V and F are still on different tracks.
How long does it take to walk from one end of the train to the other? That's how long the V would sit at Grand.
But wait! If even that's too long, trains could have crews of three from B-L to Grand and back. The new T/O would board at B-L and get settled as the train approaches Grand. The old T/O (now in the back of the train) would gather his stuff and get off at B-L. By the time the next train pulls in, he'll be at its other end, where he'll get on and serve as its new T/O. (All V service at B-L will be on one track.) Total cost to the TA is exactly one additional T/O (since, at any given time, either there's a T/O standing around on the platform not operating a train or there's an extra T/O on a train not doing anything) -- surely a lot less than the cost of operating a separate shuttle line, and also a lot more convenient to passengers.
[But wait! If even that's too long, trains could have crews of three from B-L to Grand and back. The new T/O would board at B-L and get settled as the train approaches Grand. The old T/O (now in the back of the train) would gather his stuff and get off at B-L. By the time the next train pulls in, he'll be at its other end, where he'll get on and serve as its new T/O. (All V service at B-L will be on one track.) Total cost to the TA is exactly one additional T/O (since, at any given time, either there's a T/O standing around on the platform not operating a train or there's an extra T/O on a train not doing anything) -- surely a lot less than the cost of operating a separate shuttle line, and also a lot more convenient to passengers.]
My point exactly, the other being that they could run real express service from Grand rather than a shuttle. There's no significant turnaround difference that I can see between the shuttle and the express. I imagine you could get a headway of 3 or 4 minutes -- just the time it would take the express to travel both ways from Grand to Bway/Lafayette, load at Grand, and negotiate the switch (I'd skip the Bway/Lafayette stop to save a minute since the switch is north of the station).
Now take some V service onto the express tracks too and you could have pretty good service at Grand, very good service at Bway/Lafayette, and the same local/express service you have now at West 4th and above.
Stopping at B-L is the key to two-T/O operation. Since service to and from Grand would be using the same track, the extra T/O would simply get off one train, walk to the other end of the platform, and get on the next. That would cause delays at W4, both because NB and SB trains would be on different platforms and because the SB train would already be waiting when he got there.
Besides, B-L is a transfer point to the SB 6 and SB F (across the platform, no less).
I wouldn't run it as an express -- that would interfere with B and D turning operations at 34th. At first I'd run it as a local to Queensbridge. Once the Queens changes go into effect, I'd run it as the V. (Incidentally, why doesn't the TA implement both sets of service changes at once to reduce confusion?)
As far as your first statement, the Grand St Shuttle is going to use only one T/O.
And the reason as to why the V isn't going to operate is because the 63 St Connector is not up to 100% operation yet.
See post 207182, earlier in this thread.
Having a two-stop shuttle with long dwell times is pointless. Grand Street may as well be shut down entirely.
I never said the shuttle should have two T/O's. The entire line (which would at first run to Queensbridge as the shuttle and later to Queens as the V) should have one extra T/O. Two T/O's would ride from B-L to Grand and back, where the extra T/O would get off and wait for the following train back to Grand. That would enable dwell times at Grand no longer than at any mid-line station, clearing out the one-track section quickly. This would be both cheaper and more useful than running two separate shuttles (at first) or running the shuttle to Grand and the V to 2nd Avenue.
I'm not saying this is what's going to happen. I'm saying this is what should happen.
IMHO the ridership could be dealt with a shutlle bus, with less expense to TA and the customers.
Arti
If that's your attitude, close the station entirely. It's close enough to other stations as it is. Nobody would take the bus anyway.
But somehow I don't think that would fly. And once the TA is providing subway service, it might as well do something similar to what I've proposed -- it's both cheaper and more useful than the proposed alternatives, both before the Queens service change (i.e., two shuttles meeting at B-L) and after (i.e., shuttle to Grand and V to 2nd).
Consider only two options: what the TA has proposed (and I've outlined above) and what I've proposed in earlier posts. Which would you prefer to see and why?
[If that's your attitude, close the station entirely. It's close enough to other stations as it is. Nobody would take the bus anyway. ]
If they don't they don't, running buses is cheaper than a pretty useless shuttle. If you have read the articles in NY papers, the main protest is not Grand St access from Middtown, Queens, Uptown, but Brooklyn. Shuttle bus from Canal St, to Grand St. and then to 2nd Ave would be more useful. And yes, close the station while the bridge is out.
Arti
[Stopping at B-L is the key to two-T/O operation. Since service to and from Grand would be using the same track, the extra T/O would simply get off one train, walk to the other end of the platform, and get on the next. That would cause delays at W4, both because NB and SB trains would be on different platforms and because the SB train would already be waiting when he got there.]
Not sure why you say that. The logical place for a crew swap is at Grand. The crew that had just gotten off would have plenty of time to walk to the other end of the platform before the next train came.
I had to go to Broadway/Lafayette today, so I road an extra stop to Grand and timed the trips:
Stop at Lafayette :0
Leave Lafayette :24
Stop at Grand 2:23
Leave Grand 2:43
Stop at Grand :0
Leave Grand :11
Stop at Lafayette 2:20
Leave Lafayette 2:33
Two notes: this was not during rush hour, so loading time at Grand could be a bit longer; the trains crept at half speed or less.
But the upshot is that the round trip could probably be done in six minutes, if the Lafayette stop were bypassed (I'm assuming it would take about as much time to clear the switch and wait for it to switch back as it takes to load and unload). That would provide a headway of 6 minutes, not ideal but no worse than the current headway on any single line of the B, D or Q, and not much worse than the 4 minutes of the F.
[Besides, B-L is a transfer point to the SB 6 and SB F (across the platform, no less).]
Yes, but B-L would still have more than enough service, what with the V and the F. That's a solid train every two minutes, as opposed to a train every 1-1/2 minutes *on average.* The net result would be essentially equivalent to current service and precisely equivalent to the MTA's temporary service proposal.
[I wouldn't run it as an express -- that would interfere with B and D turning operations at 34th. At first I'd run it as a local to Queensbridge. Once the Queens changes go into effect, I'd run it as the V. (Incidentally, why doesn't the TA implement both sets of service changes at once to reduce confusion?)]
I'd run the B & D through. No turns at 34th. That would mean a very slight service reduction with respect to what we have now (1-1/3 lines total as opposed to 1-1/2), but that would more than be made up for by the restored service on the Broadway line.
Also, I'd try running half of those V's along the JMZ.
Would this work? Close Grand St.. Run a Shuttle/Mini M 24/7 from DeKalb to Essex St.( or the closest stations from where the turns could be done) on the Nassau line. This would allow travel from Chinatown, Brooklyn (Sea Beach 8th Ave. station) with the transfer at DeKalb to The Bowery station one block from Grand. And, it would provide access to the 6th Ave. lines with the transfer at Delancey/Essex.
[Would this work? Close Grand St.. Run a Shuttle/Mini M 24/7 from DeKalb to Essex St.( or the closest stations from where the turns could be done) on the Nassau line. This would allow travel from Chinatown, Brooklyn (Sea Beach 8th Ave. station) with the transfer at DeKalb to The Bowery station one block from Grand. And, it would provide access to the 6th Ave. lines with the transfer at Delancey/Essex.]
I looked at my track map and there are only three tracks at Essex, but that might still allow you to supplement JMZ service with shuttles. You can't take all the Nassau line service into Brooklyn because the M shares the tunnel with the Broadway line, but you could run a shuttle between Broad and Essex to beef up shuttle service.
Disadvantages: it puts travellers two more stops away from 6th Avenue, and only half the 6th Avenue service runs to Essex. That could be fixed by cutting back the G or repairing the fire damage and running the V to Brooklyn (or building the Rutgers-Dekalb connector, but we're getting further and further into the province of good service here, heaven forbid).
I had another thought last night -- why not just run two shuttles, one on each track? That would give you a 3 minute headway. OK, so half the time going north you'd have to take the stairs to get to the right side; those who aren't up to it could just wait for the next shuttle. The shuttles could be timed to arrive with the F and the V. Then restore BQ service to W. 4th and hold the expresses, which would be turning, to allow cross-platform transfer from the F and V. Not ideal, but it gives you a 3 minute headway and express service.
In 1986-88 the 6th Ave. "S" shuttle ran from 57th St. to Grand St. One shuttle. How often did it run? What track(s) did it use at the south end? If they could do it then, why can't they do it now?
They ran 3 or 4 trains, generally 10 to 12 minutes apart. They single tracked from north of Bway-Lafayette to Grand St. on track B3 (the Brooklyn bound B/D/Q track). Because of the single track, if one train was late, its' follower would have to hold till the first train came back. BTW: the customers at Grand St. LOVED to hold the doors! Now, the third train could be late becasue it would have to wait for the second one, and the schedule never got back in place till 57/6 abandoned an interval (cancellation of a train). Because the line will be longer in length (was 57/6 will be 21 St. on 7/1/01), there would be a better chance for a late train plugging the single track area. As of 7/1/01, the single track will only be from north of Bway-Lafayette to the station itself. As for the Grand St. service. they will have better service regularity since their train will travel only one stop. During the rush, at Bway-Lafayette the F generally runs 5 minutes apart. And they'll have the 21 St. shuttle as well.
The S shuttle of 1986/88 ran to 57th St and ran pretty fast during the rush hours (8 TPH IIRC), while only using one track thru Broadway Lafayette.
A question for the experts:
If the V used Grand St. as it's terminal, switching NORTH of Broadway Lafayette, running thruthe station and on to Grand St, what would be the maximum realistic capacity? I know it would be confusing with trains operating in both directions on both express tracks at B'way/Lfytte., but it's a possibility.
BTW, southbound Broadway expresses cannot use Canal St. as a terminal either, because no scissor crossover exists between the tracks north of the station. Didn't anyone think that a loss of the bridge was possible? What if a German U-boat got through and blew the bridge up during either world war? Farfetched, but even an earthquake, terrorist act or catastrophic structural failure must've been thought about back when the subway first started using the bridge.
I could've sworn there was a crossover just south of Prince St. Or am I thinking of the Express-Local switches?
Meanwhile, City Hall Lower Level has 2 or 3 double crossovers. One south of Canal, one further south of canal, and possibly one right at the station (not sure though).
Only express/local switches exist south of Prince. None between both bridge tracks.
There ARE no alternatives. The bridge is being shut down for repairs by the DOT, and the politians JUST noticed what has been a steady thing since the early 1980s, which is why there is now such a fuss.
-Hank
I don't know why noone, neither the TA or the residents, has thought of the Bowery station, one block down and right around the corner as the alternative. You just take any train there one stop to Essex for 6th Av (just as short and quick as a shuttle), and an added bonus is that you can go one stop the other direction to Canal for the Manhattan Bridge trains to Brooklyn. It's almost as good as having the through service. A shuttle bus or train is a waste of equipment and manpower.
If people worry about safety at Bowery, that wouldn't be a problem if all the Grand St. passengers were using it.
Excellent point.
Also, don't forget that during rush hours the M is extended to Brooklyn. For many current-day B riders, the M will serve as a most excellent alternate even if it is a bit slower. (Perhaps, once the TA gets more cars, if the M to Brooklyn becomes as popular as it might, it could be restored there middays.) There are same-platform transfers to all the other Southern Division BMT lines (except the F) -- at DeKalb for the N/R/Q/Q and at Pacific for the N/R/W. The M (again, the rush hour version) has great connections in lower Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn: 2/3/4/5 at Fulton, Court, and Pacific (and Chambers, for the 4/5/6), A/C at Fulton, F at Essex or 9th Street.
Even if Grand ceases to exist tomorrow, Chinatown has much more convenient and extensive subway service than just about any other neighborhood in the city. Yes, the change will require taking new routes. Yes, the change will be a mild inconvenience to some. Yes, some people will have to change trains. But I still don't see what the big fuss is.
>>(Perhaps, once the TA gets more cars, if the M to Brooklyn becomes as popular as it might, it could be restored there middays.)<<
Why does everyone here think that the M can't run to Bklyn. Middays due to car shortage? When it stopped running to 9th av in Bklyn, Where were the cars sent? NOWHERE! the TA stopped running them there, because middays Q trains had to Run thru Montague. After Manny B work was done, they kept the M to Chambers because middays it doesn't get much service. But now, it's warranted to extend it back to 9th av during middays.
What do you think happens to the Rush hour M trains? They're laid up. All you have to do is not lay them up.
True, I've seen a few of them laid up on the West End express tracks myself.
Will the route changes this summer require that they be used for other service? (I haven't worked out the numbers.) Then the midday M should be (re)extended.
Duh. We're talking a midday service. There are tons of extra cars middays. Of course the M could be extended.
(Q) Service never ran thru the Montague BMT tunnel. Midday (M) trains were cut back to Chambers from 9th Avenue after a round of cutbacks that affected transit and surface running in late 1996/early 1997.
The theory was that 33% of the Montague tunnel traffic shouldn't be used on a lighty used line (M).
Of course, they saw the need (even then) to augment West End service, this is why (M) still runs to Bay parkway during rush hours.
The midday Q ran down Broadway and through Montague for a few months a number of years ago. I don't remember if this was due to work on the 63rd Street line or to a short-term midday-only full closure of the Manhattan Bridge, but I believe it was the latter.
>>(Q) Service never ran thru the Montague BMT tunnel.<<
Yeah they did. 1995 during Manhattan Bridge re-routes. I've got about 3 maps from that period. Middays, Weekends and Saturday Nights (Sunday Mornings) (Q) trains ran via montague.
>>Midday (M) trains were cut back to Chambers from 9th Avenue after a round of cutbacks that affected transit and surface running in late 1996/early 1997.<<
M trains were cutback middays because you can't run 4 lines on 2 tracks. After bridge work was done, they kept the M to chambers middays because there's really not much usage during middays, and anyone who does use it can get the N or R trains, which are a short distance away.
>>The theory was that 33% of the Montague tunnel traffic shouldn't be used on a lighty used line (M).<<
Nah. The theory was that you can't run 4 lines in Montague.
>>Of course, they saw the need (even then) to augment West End service, this is why (M) still runs to Bay parkway during rush hours.<<
And yet M trains still run relatively barren.....
(I don't know why noone, neither the TA or the residents, has thought of the Bowery station, one block down and right around the corner as the alternative.)
I believe the protests are being led by businesses right next to the station that rely on foot traffic from Grand Street Station. A walk over to Canal would hurt the businesses more than the passengers. There was a similar issue with Stillwell in one of the papers today.
Bitch when they don't do repairs; Bitch when they do.
Of course. It's human nature.
You cannot make mistakes (or I'll sue). But I am human so I can make mistakes.
[I believe the protests are being led by businesses right next to the station that rely on foot traffic from Grand Street Station. A walk over to Canal would hurt the businesses more than the passengers. There was a similar issue with Stillwell in one of the papers today. ]
The Manhattan Bridge closure has been an available knowledge for years. If they didn't bother to do their research before investing money, they deserve to get srcrewed.
Arti
Several news articles claim that when Grand Street is cut off from the bridge, the ONLY alternative is to take the shuttle to Broadway-Lafayette for the 'F' to Brooklyn, which is very roundabout, indirect and time-consuming.
No one seems to mention that Canal/Broadway will be reopened, and served by the 'Q' and 'W' to Brooklyn, covering the same territory as the 'D' and 'B' respectively. If the 'F' to Brooklyn is your pleasure, it's available at Delancey or East Broadway.
All three stops are in the area, albeit six to eight congested blocks away. In fact, Grand Street station only came into existence in 1967, which is pretty recent by subway standards. True, the area around the station has become a hotbed of commercial and shopping activity. Bensonhurst and Sheepshead Bay, which have direct service from there via 'B' and 'D/Q', have had a tremendous surge in Chinese residents. (Avenue U from Coney to Nostrand is starting to look like another Chinatown.) There's no question that Grand Street contributed to all of this.
Will the closure of bridge service be an inconvenience? Absolutely. Will there be viable one-seat alternative services to Brooklyn that don't require a detour to, or change at Broadway-Lafayette? Absolutely. But no one notices that- or wants to.
Don't forget the Bowery station is close-by. MTA should increase J and M service where riders can get to the F, or back to Canal for Broadway line service.
With the Q and W running on Broadway, people have MORE options. The Broadway line connects with the IRT Lexington line at 14th street (4,5,6 and L), 6th ave IND, and a multitude of stuff at Times Square.
The 6th ave line does not go to Times Square, nor does it service 4,5,6 at Union Square.
While it will be bad for Grand st area businesses, the MTA concerns itself with getting riders from point A to point B, and is not responsible for service changes affecting business.
I think it'll be much better in my opinion (for me) getting to and from Chinatown from other parts of NYC with the switch.
It is high time the Broadway line be the major trunk line, it's connections to the IRT are SO much better than the 6th ave IND.
In fact, 6th ave only connects with the 7 at 42nd (long passageway) and only the DOWNTOWN 6 at Bway Lafeyette.
Broadway gives you many connections with the IRT at Times Square, 14th street, and Canal street. Not to mention the Nassau st line, L and 7.
>>It is high time the Broadway line be the major trunk line, it's connections to the IRT are SO much better than the 6th ave IND.
In fact, 6th ave only connects with the 7 at 42nd (long passageway) and only the DOWNTOWN 6 at Bway Lafeyette.
Broadway gives you many connections with the IRT at Times Square, 14th street, and Canal street. Not to mention the Nassau st line, L and 7.<<
Broadway cannot be the major trunk line. It doesn't see enough service (during manhattan br. full operation).
1) 6th av. has connections to the Queens Pl. express, and CPW express and local (it will have a connection to Queens Pl. local soon.) Broadway has a connection to the Astoria line (7 train also is close to this line) and the Queens Pl. local. Thus, under normal operation, 6th av. sees more service.
2)Even coming from the south, 6th av gets more service than Broadway, EVEN with those transfers you named.
3) How about 8th av being the major trunk line! It connects to:
J,M,Z,2,3,4,5 @ B'way Nassau
B,D,F,Q @ W4 St.
N,R,7,S,1,2,3,9 @ 42nd. St (Yeah, long passageway. SO WHAT! people walk it everyday)
1,9,B,D @ 59th
1,9 @ 168th
Qtraindash7 is right about the BROADWAY being the MAINLINE. WE OFFER MORE FLEXIBLE (CONNECTION TO MAJOR LINES)THAN ALL THE LINES IN THE SUBWAY SYSTEM. IT'S TERRIBLE THAT THE BROADWAY LINE WAS SHORTCHANGE IN FAVOR OF THE 6TH AVENUE LINES. BUT THAT WILL BE CHANGING VERY SOON. HOPEFULLY THEY WILL PUT MY TRAIN BACK ON THE EXPRESS TRACKS SO THAT WE CAN BE THE FASTEST LINE IN THE SYSTEM.
N BROADWAY LINE
>>Qtraindash7 is right about the BROADWAY being the MAINLINE.<<
Broadway doesn't have nearly as much service as 6th av. or 8th av. BOTH have more connections to other lines (CPW exp/loc, Queens exp/loc etc)
>>WE OFFER MORE FLEXIBLE (CONNECTION TO MAJOR LINES)THAN ALL THE LINES IN THE SUBWAY SYSTEM.<<
Those are lies. The 8th av line/Fulton/CPW has the best connections, both direct (meaning a train runs from the line to another line [D/B trains to 6th]) or transferring. The N/R line only feeds into the Astoria line (boo) and the Queens Pl. local.
>>IT'S TERRIBLE THAT THE BROADWAY LINE WAS SHORTCHANGE IN FAVOR OF THE 6TH AVENUE LINES.<<
No, it's legitimate.
>>BUT THAT WILL BE CHANGING VERY SOON.<<
Temporarily.
>>HOPEFULLY THEY WILL PUT MY TRAIN BACK ON THE EXPRESS TRACKS SO THAT WE CAN BE THE FASTEST LINE IN THE SYSTEM.<<
That's a good one! Even with express trains, I bet than a D train will beat an N train from 34th to DeKalb. And, The 8th av IND has the fastest exp runs (xcept maybe for brighton).
We've been through this before on nyc.transit.
Of course the IND has good connections to the IND, but it has pretty poor connections to the rest of the system. Sixth Avenue, in particular, is pretty isolated: no transfer from the express to the 7th Avenue express (there's a transfer from the local at 14th, and to the local at 59th); no transfer to the Lex express (and one of the transfers to the local is only a half-transfer). The long transfer passageways all involve the IND.
The BMT, OTOH, has multiple connections to the IRT -- express-to-express.
Wow, didn't you claim a few months ago that this would be the end of the world for Chinatown?
That was before I realized just how many alternatives there were. :-)
Weren't you advocating the opposite few months ago?
Arti
Both the northbound and southbound sides can be used for transferring. They appear to have severed all ties to the northbound J/Z platform though, so you still have to walk around the middle tracks to get there.
The southbound platform has fewer "no trains stop here" signs, so there were people waiting (some asked if this was the uptown N).
There are new punch boxes on the south side as well.
All phones have been installed and are functional.
Look into the tunnel at the westernmost part of the south platform, it is a rather interesting view.
"They appear to have severed all ties to the northbound J/Z platform though, so you still have to walk around the middle tracks to get there."
Sounds like they're getting ready for double tracking of the Centre St. subway. No sense in rehabbing stairways to the northbound side if it will be shut down in a couple of years.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, but just make the people walk all the way around for multple months, until they are ready to reconfigure it. I won't even enter or transfer there because of this. Since it is this long already, they could at least have opened one of the connections temporarily. And what about when they begin to punch the new track through the crossing platform, and you can no longer go around there (and the new track will obviously not be laid, let alone in service yet)? Perhaps then they'll just close that whole side of the station then, and tell everyone to cross over at the next station.
That transfer is pretty pathetic. There aren't even any signs at the top of the stairs that for northbound service one must walk around.
Why doesn't the TA poke a hole in the wall and install a temporary bridge over the center tracks by the staircase? That could stay in place as the new track is laid and removed at the last minute.
(It reminds me somewhat of the NB Essex Street platform. The first time I was there I walked back and forth looking for a way up to the street; the staircases going down, which one wouldn't expect to have to use to simply leave the station, had no signs. Trains will soon be running on the center track instead of the side track -- in fact, they can do so today, but with the new Canal configuration they'll have to. I hope the TA considers bridging the now-useless side track and reopening the exit on the south side of Delancey. It's still there; it was used when the MB was closed to allow for easier access to the shuttle bus.)
Henry:
I don't get to ride that line anymore. What do you see?
If you're referring to the view from the west of the southbound platform, it is a rather unusual one. There are no dividers between the tracks, and they take a rather sharp curve a few feet from the end of the station. If a train were to run through the headlights would point straight at you right until it hits the platform. The way the tunnel lighting is arranged it appears that the tracks are going straight along Canal st if you look down from further along the platform (but that string of lights ends with a concrete wall with door).
And there is a 10 MPH speed restriction upon leaving Canal northbound, you can only see the sign from the southbound plat.
Originally, the line was going to go straight across to the West side, so a short section of tunnel was built going straight. Then they suddenly decided on connecting it to the Broadway exp. tracks (instead of starting them from City Hall). Now they've built a room there in the unused space.
Proof of this is that when they removed the 70's tile, you could see "B" mosaic tablets. Apparently, the station was going to be called "Broadway" before it was decided to turn the whole line up Broadway.
[Originally, the line was going to go straight across to the West side]
Did they plan to turn it uptown further west or just terminate on Canal?
Arti
It was just supposed to go to a terminal on Canal St. at the Hudson River.
Like the L?
Arti
The station was called Broadway. I've seen that name on many old maps.
You say that the platforms are fully open, but are the tracks in working order too?
Of course not. The tracks leading to the north side of the bridge are not in use yet !!!
Correction: South side !!
When I walked past the Canal St bridge station last sunday, the tracks looked like it's ready to go. No construction equipment in sight. No signs that no trains can't stop at that station unless I missed something about the signals.
It might be 100% ready, or they might be doing something in the tunnel. Maybe someone knows !!
The station tracks are 100% usable... I think the third rails are still deactivated, though.
The bridge tracks are useless, but if you hang around long enough you will see a few work trains roll through Canal st. Don't believe me? Look at the rails. Notice they're shiny.
>There are new punch boxes on the south side as well
No, all the punch boxes are old. (still have B & D) Some of them have been painted in the back (platform side) manking them look new.
For those who are interested, I have the list of the new R-68/R-68A End Sign and Side sign readings. The 4 pages include:
End Route Signs
Side Route Signs
Side northern destinations
Side southern destinations
I will e-mail the zip file to anyone who requests it......
new signs? classic roll or LED? -Nick
You'r confusing the R68/68A cars with the R44/46 cars.
Count me in, Train Dude!!! BTW: Will I be able to download these files to a 3.5" floppy and have my local printer print them out?
Also, I still ain't gotten your response to my e-mail to you re: fleet-managers and whatnot. -Peace and GB, Thomas :-)
Yes, would you please email it to:
ItalianGuyInSI@aol.com
Thank you!
Count me in.
Hey guys, let's not waste Dave's space with posting individual requests. I should have said:
For those who are interested, I have the list of the new R-68/R-68A End Sign and Side sign readings. The 4 pages include:
End Route Signs
Side Route Signs
Side northern destinations
Side southern destinations
I will e-mail the zip file to anyone who requests it......
Requests by E-mail only
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then please give us your E-mail address. :)
Gee, if you follow the hyper-link you'll get it but anyway, it's
thetraindude@hotmail.com
If you click on Train Dude's name after "posted by", it will bring you to his e-mail address.
Thanks for the email. Much appreciated.
One question though.
I've seen, "Astoria Blvd., Queens" (obviously they meant Ditmars cause no trains originate or end at Astoria Blvd.) on some R-68s but didn't see them on your north destination list. Did they get new roll signs or what.
=)
Sorry bout that. I just realized right after posting that your e-mail was available.
So when do the R44s and R46s get their rollsigns back? ;-D Let's sink those LCDs to the bottom of the ocean!!!
:-D Andrew
What is it that everyone has against the R-44/46 LCDs? I like them!
Dan
1. One of the smartest moves of the modern subway was the current system of route colors. An out-of-towner can easily match their subway train with the map, the train with the overhead sign, and the overhead sign with the map. A regular rider can tell one train from another at a quick glance. A billiant system---which is almost completely and utterly lost on any train running R44s and R46s--unless we change the (A)(E) (F) (G) and Rock Park (S) to the same yellow as the (N) and (R). Whatdya think: [A] [E] [F] [G] [S]
2. They're really hard to read from an angle.
3. They're realy hard to read from a distance.
4. I think they're UGLY. But that's my opinion.
5. They don't show all the route information at once--for instance whether the [A] is running to Lefferts Blvd or one of the Rockaway terminals---and the AIRPORT!
At a quick glance--like from inside a crowded train, it is very difficult to tell a G from an R, or an E from an F, or one kind of A from another, making the whole letter/color system utterly useless right when it's needed the most--mind you, that information isn't just railfan stuff, a passenger needs to know whether to give up a seat, plow through a crowd and transfer accross the platform.
I will say that the LEDs on the R142s are somewhat better.
I am interested.
E-mail is oren@orenstransitpage.com
Thanks, in advance
If it wont trouble you too much Train Dude, can you mail me a copy? crazy10seven@msn.com, I hope our little conflict is on light terms only, I'd like a resolution, I would like to go back to talking about NYCT without being attacked
If it wont trouble you too much Train Dude, can you mail me a copy? crazy10seven@msn.com, I hope our little conflict is on light terms only, I'd like a resolution, I would like to go back to talking about NYCT without being attacked
Yeah, ditto fer me too, "Dude"!! Still ain't recieved nuttin from ya!
Peace, Thomas :-/
Train Dude
Please e-mail your R-68R/R68A files to RJoneshbo@Prodigy.net
Thanks for the work you put into this project!
Ron J.
(S)
Not In
Service
Special
Shuttle
Haven't gone through the destinations yet.
Still think they should have included "T", and wonder why they left in "K".
Also they had to specify that all letters were white, except for in yellow backgrounds, where they are to be black. If they used gold, they could still use white, making it simpler. I've suggested this before, but haven't had time this year after hearing new signs would be ordered. Also, the color would be more visible on maps.
I'm guessing they didn't go for <B> since it is on some R-68a signs but apparently not the newest one...
Wait a minute, there's a blue (S)!!!! I hope they get a few of these for the R-44!
Also of note: They didn't get an <A>, and they zapped the (B)(D).
As for the destinations, where are they planning on putting the extra info? Making the font half the size? Who really needs "via JFK" on the Far Rockaway rollsign, "Long Island City" for Court Square, "Lower Manhattan" for Whitehall st, or "Lower East Side" for second ave?
I see the B/D bullets for the R68/R68A roll sign.
I am curious why they would have (M) side bullets, and not a "A" or "B" end bullet.
I know they have (B)(D) on there, but didn't you notice they got rid of (B)(D)< W > with this change? And also the JFK Symbol! Not that they'd ever need it again...
Rember all those stupid arguments over what cars could run where after the swap because of the rollsigns? I kept thinking to myself: The T/A will probably spend $1 million on advertising alone for this, printing maps and G/O notices, new signs, not to mention costs in planning the new routes and getting the track ready for use, and nobody here thinks they'll buy new signs?
Wait a minute, there's a blue (S)!!!! I hope they get a few of these for the R-44!
Also of note: They didn't get an <A>, and they zapped the (B)(D).
As for the destinations, where are they planning on putting the extra info? Making the font half the size? Who really needs "via JFK" on the Far Rockaway rollsign, "Long Island City" for Court Square, "Lower Manhattan" for Whitehall st, or "Lower East Side" for second ave?
Wait a minute, there's a blue (S)!!!! I hope they get a few of these for the R-44!
Signs for the R68 and the R44 are incompatible. R44 end signs scroll horizontally (like the R40, 42, and 46, whose signs are compatible with the R44). R68 signs scroll vertically. If they wanted a blue (S) on R44 cars, they'd have to order a new set of signs for these cars.
It seems like they have given up on diamonds for rush hour service. Now it is only used to distiguish the Q's.
An orange "V" would seem appropriate, since it will be a 6th Av service.
yellow-on-black is fine
I always thought black and yellow were ugly together, especially the slightly reddish "traffic yellow" used on the old Manhattan street signs. (The new lemon yellow school crossing signs look nicer.)
[wonder why they left in "K". ]
Answer:
Inwood 207 St
(K)
Ozone Park Lefferts Blvd
That would be my guess. They should make it so that (A) trains ONLY go to Far Rockaway.
Why did they leave in (H)?
Similar reason:
Inwood 207 St
(H)
Rockaway Park Beach 116 St
Click here Then take the Express to the HH. Click on the Rollsign Gallery and then click on the R68 Side Signs.
BTW, I apologize for the ads. TopCities sticks an ad on EVERYTHING that's HTML!
Never posted much Iam new to board. Been on 8 or 9 Mo. Outstanding RR talk. I'am the last one on my street on the net. Jim Jr. bought me a webtv which I'am now useing. I worked late straights
and Owl's most of my 35yrs. Hired on at 21 in 1961 with D.C.Transit bus Oper. I saw many great & sad things (JFK) 1963. Was working 16st. that day Silver Spring - Fed.Triangle local S-2. In 1981 I bumped over to rail 20 years didn't carry much the Metro Rail only 5 years old. T/O training was 8 weeks with instructers another 4 weeks on main line with Oper. The main lines were New Carrilton - Ballston Orange Line. Blue Line National Airport - Addison Road
Red Line - Silver Spring- DuPont Circle. Yards were New Carrilton- Brentwood (side by side ) with Ivy City Amtrak & National Airport(layup's only ).
How this system has grown. I retired 1996 working out of Alexandria yard. Pulled 15 yrs. as T/O best time & people I worked with. Will be glad to help answer questions about the train system. Jim Tate
Welcome aboard! This is a wonderful crew room, no flashes, please. :)
Thanks SEL. I dont miss the pressure one bit. Pass a red(over) red signal (not a light) 30 days no pay.
Close the doors on Newt, death penalty. I'll hit the homeball, thank ya. Heh. When hauling geese for a living, it's always a white knuckle ride and on your little electric train set, it seemed to screech a lot louder when it came to a stop than our choochoos in NYC. That was one thing I always remembered about WMATA when I went down there was how loud the shoes were for such "new" trains. Glad to have another actual operator with us, you'll have fun here ... just watch what ya step in. Heh.
when I went main line in 81 they had just about taken care of the disk pads. They were replaced with with a better pad. It was a very loud noise.
Last time I was in Deecee was 1981 when Raygun was inaugurated - went with a TV truck, had lawn passes, went to cover that and the hostages coming home - I was a news anchor at the time for WFTI-TV54 in Poughkeepsie before it went "pray-TV" ... those Rohrs were MIGHTY loud at the time and I really got off on the strobie lights on the platforms. Back in the hippie daze, that musta been a rush. Heh.
You guys have some mighty deep tunnels there though. Still have a battered farecard from back then ... meanwhile in NYC, those farecards are a recent development. So even if this place is largely geared to NYC, you'll feel right at home here and there's some of your own local folks lurking about too. So don't be shy. :)
(to sel) am still messing up on password. Rohr lbs.75,000 Breda cars 85,000 makes a big diff. on a 6pack or 8 pack
WebTV doesn't have the ability to store the cookie that "remembers" the password and login like most of us here using a computer so you'll definitely want to keep it handy since there's no way around that with the box you're using. I remember the cars I rode in saying they were Rohrs and I've heard from others that the differences between them are subtle and requires a bit of a clue to spot - having to do I think with how many seats are on the ends. But I don't worry much about that since I prefer riding the cab myself.
What impressed me about them way back when was the full width cab (NYC trains of the vintage all had broom closets on the right side of the car looking out front) and the other thing I found amusing was the recorded announcements. I was commenting to a colleague at the smoky window up front that it was a tape and damned if the motorman didn't grab the microphone and show me up. But it looked OPTO to me. So many things about that "newer" subway were just completely alien to the NYC experience but then again, NYC has one of the older systems in the country with just about everything manually operated. When I worked for the TA, I liked that a lot. Nowadays, the door controls are inside (we actually had to climb out between cars to open and close the doors) and the cab "plumbing" was operated by biggie wrenches rather than T-bars and the modern accoutrements.
WMATA was just so *modern* compared to what I grew up with, back 20+ years ago. And I'm sure much like myself, you miss plying the rails. Then you slap yourself and come back to reality. Isn't it amazing though the things we do for cash? Some jobs are things you always wanted to do. Until you do them. :)
That is true the Op. can pop doors on wrong side all hell brakes loose.
That's been known to happen in NYC as well with the newer "wide cabs" and well, you don't do it again. Well, time for me to skedaddle ... they expect me to write software here and I guess I oughta. :)
Glad to have ya with us ... step lively, watch the closing doors and all that good stuff.
Are you going to take part in any of the 25th anniversery events for Metrorail? I read on WMATA's website of memorabilia they will have available such as a pewter two car train set, silver maps and silver smart cards. I may have to skip work on March 29 if anything special is going on down here in DC.
I love taking the metro, especially since i live only a block from the Ballston Station. I am looking forward to riding the CAF cars whenever they show up.
If they show up at this rate. Those CAF cars are the R142s of DC. At least they are fixing them before entering service. I hate those "This train is now out of service" announcements and with tourist season coming...
Yeah, I've noticed a lot more people who don't know where they are going on the trains the past couple of weeks. I did notice on one of the message boards, I can't remember what station I was going through, but on the other side it read "Please stand back, the next train is out of service." I've never seen that before, but I'm guessing that message has been around for a while.
It figures that they'd run into glitches getting the new trains up and running. The contract to rehab the 2000 and 3000 series cars has been awarded, so they need these CAF's so the Breda's can get their rehabbing done.
I've seen it. Last time I saw that reading (when the signs used the courier font) was the opposite, reading "NOT IN SERVICE, PLEASE STEP BACK."
Metro is ATTEMPTING to tell the tourists NOT to ride during afternoon rush hour. I guess they now realize that tourists+commuters-the >26 CAF cars that are susposed to be in service=chaos.
LOL, the last thing we need is a repeat of April 1999 when the trains were breaking down like crazy during the Cherry Blossom season and the near riot that erupted on one train that was going out of service at L'Enfant Plaza.
>>> the near riot that erupted on one train that was going out of service at L'Enfant Plaza.
The train was susposed to go out of service at Smithsonian! The mutiny caused it to go out of service at L'Enfant Plaza.
If that happens again...
Those CAFs better arrive SOON!
ANOTHER DC FAN!!! YES!!!
Might you be coming for the railfan trip on April 21?
As the handle implies, I am a WMATA fan. What lines did you work? While I am not a WMATA employee, I do know how to drive the trian (figured it out just by watching).
Welcome aboard!
Welcome Smoker. I think you'll like it here. I'm not much of a subway fan and even I like it. But, I do have a few questions, they partain to buses though. Hopefully, no one will mind.
First, I want ALL of the DIRT on the New Looks. Not the good stuff, just the bad stuff some rabid busfans just don't want to admit. Also, did you drive any of the RTS-03s before you transferred to rail? Just give me the good stuff on those, I know all the bad already. Thanks.
BTW, I do have a question about the trains. Was being a T/O less stressful than being a bus driver? One can only imagine it was. No traffic to deal with, just wide open track. Must've been grand. Was the equipment old or did WMATAA bus cycle it (replaced it every 15 years or so)?
The information on the MTA’s site implied that it might have been possible to take a 5 train from Bowling Green, around South Ferry and then onto the West Side IRT.
Did anyone try this? What happened?
I’m interested because if a similar notice appears for next weekend, I might come into the City and try this (along with riding a train through the 63rd St tunnel onto the Broadway BMT).
That's for the weekend of 3/24 and 3/25. When I come off work tomorrow, I'm going to try and railfan an unusual GO involving the 2 train operating on the Lex and turning around at Wall St to go around the loop and up 7th Avenue, which is a night GO.
-Stef
I hope they have the night GO. Service advisories on MTA site say night GO on the 2 is in effect for the weekend, although it has happened during the weekday. Perhaps I'll wait 'till Saturday night if all else fails....
-Stef
I missed it last weekend. I’m hoping that it’s in effect next weekend as well.
During the day, the Bronx-bound 5 will run up 7th and the Bronx-bound 2 will run up Lex. (The 3 will be truncated at 42nd.) Passengers at the lower Manhattan stations are instructed to ride the Bowling Green-bound 5 to its terminus, around the South Ferry loop, and to Chambers and beyond.
At night, the 5 doesn't run. To cover (most of) its regular route, the 2 will run up to Wall Street on the Lex and reverse through the loop.
Both look like fun. I was hoping to hit both this past weekend until I noticed the effective dates.
If anyone wants some fun, catch the 0622 Van Cortlandt on Sunday morning and listen to my CR have no idea what to say (or you could catch the 0715 VC on Saturday, but I won't be there).
Don't they have a prepared script for conductors for such GOs? Just curious.
I was about to try it until I noticed that it's actually effective next weekend, not this. You're in luck.
I rode the 2 last night and it was operating normally.
Duh! You’re right! That gives me next weekend to play! Now, will the trains go round the outer or the inner loop at SF?
John.
From Bowling Green, they will cross to the outer loop, NOT stop at South Ferry (and possibly not stop at Rector and Cortlandt), stop on the local track at Chambers and then be governed by whatever GOs are running on the West Side.
If they’re not stopping, why go through the outer loop, where they have to keep out of the way of 1s & 9s?
Just curious (and hoping to ride the inner loop).
Where did your information come from: just past habits?
The only switch from the inner loop to the outer loop is before South Ferry Station, so East to West forces the train onto the outer loop. When this runs in the other direction, the switch from outer loop to inner loop is after South Ferry, so again the train passes the station on the outer loop.
Duh! (Again) I must have been taking stupid pills today. If I’d only looked at the track map before posting I would have known.
This is definitely a bummer for those of us looking to ride infrequently-used pieces of the subway. The only time a train uses the inner loop is when it’s short-turning after Bowling Green, in which case there will be no passengers :-(.
There's only one way to do it without unnecessary extra reverse movements. At South Ferry, the outer track connects to the West Side line, and the inner track to the East Side line. To cross from one line to another, a train must use the outer track and pass the South Ferry platform, since the switch from the inner to the outer track is before the platform.
(The switch from the outer to the inner track is past the platform.)
The trains must run up to Wall to reverse and take advantage of the switch between the uptown and downtown tracks between Wall and the Green. They should bypass the Ferry, Rector, and Cortlandt, and stop on the local track at Chambers. From there, they can switch to the express track and make regular 2 stops.
Mark
My plan to connect StatenIsland with the other boroughs.Im sure someone has figured this out already,if not here it goes.My plan is to extend the R-train south from Brooklyn.Run a tunnel beneath the narrows or build an extra deck on the Verranzano for trains, like the Manhattan bridge.Once in Staten Island extend the R-train southwards and eventually link it to the already existing tracks of the S.I.R.T. The R-train will run local from Tottenville to SouthBeach. Then once in Brooklyn it can run express,rushing Staten Islanders to work in lower Manhattan.I dont know how much it would cost.Or how succesful it would be.
Let's add this to the plan: Extend the northern end of the Staten Island Railroad via a tunnel so that it joins the 1/9 southern terminus at Battery Park. Then, to top it off, we extend the Hudson Bergen light rail across the Arthurkill providing Staten Island with a transit connection to north Jersey.
...cost and other realities notwithstanding, of course.
Mark
Back in the l920's a rail tunnel was planned to run under the Narrows to connect the BMT to SIRT. That's why the SIRT old cars were built to fit BMT clearances and later did in fact run on the BMT for a few years. Like a lot of other plans it never got done. As for RIRT being an FRA railroad I'm sure that could be changed but no concern for the present.
I guess then in SIRR is BMT standards, it wouldn't connect well with the 1/9 line, then. Oh well. Is there a BMT line terminating at the lower end of Manhattan that would work, for example, an extension of the E line or maybe a spur of the N/R line branching off at Whitehall Street?
Mark
No mistaking it, SIRR could only be connected to the B division. Doubt that it would ever be to lower Manhattan with a 5 mile underwater tube. Hope not, I'd hate to see the ferry bite the dust.Would be neat to see the 4th Ave-Bay Ridge deal come to pass though unlikely as such would be built. Then it might?
>>> I'd hate to see the ferry bite the dust. <<<
There is no question that it would. I assume you remember the days of multiple ferries across the Hudson.
Tom
Sure do; as you no doubt recall most of them were operated by railroads and fed the RR terminals across the Hudson. Better yet the old steamers from the l900-1920's period served nearly all of them.I'll say no more about age this time...glad to have seen them.
The best chance for a Brooklyn-SI subway tunnel would be to piggyback it on the proposal for the cross harbor freight tunnel, which would be designed to rehabilitate the Brooklyn waterfront as a deep water port for the new generation of larger ocean cargo ships that cannot navigate the shallower waters on the New Jersey side.
A subway-only tunnel would make the trip to Manhattan easier for SI residents, but it wouldn't make enough people money to get the financial support it would need. But a cargo tunnel that would run freight all across the U.S., and allow a direct Washington-Long Island-Boston freight link without the long current Hudson Valley detour -- that would stand to make a lot of people a lot of money. Because of that, a bi-level tunnel with seperate freight and subway tracks could be justified, so long as the connection to the existing B&O rail bridge from SI to New Jersey (probably beneath Richmond Terrace and Bay Street) could be made.
[The best chance for a Brooklyn-SI subway tunnel would be to piggyback it on the proposal for the cross harbor freight tunnel, which would be designed to rehabilitate the Brooklyn waterfront as a deep water port for the new generation of larger ocean cargo ships that cannot navigate the shallower waters on the New Jersey side.]
Is there enough room to build a container/tanker port on the Brooklyn side? & is the road network adequate?
Supposedly it's been researched and checked out (at least according to Congressman Nadler, who has pushed the plan). Apparently the channel that feeds out from the Hudson is at its deepest point far closer to the Brooklyn side of the Upper Bay than to the New Jersey side, and while there would need to be some dredging, the area at least up to Buttermilk Channel and the Gowanus could handle the bigger ships.
The argument is the new generation of superfreighters will dominate shipping entirely in the next 10-15 years, and if nothing is done what little cargo NYC has left will be lost completely to ports like Norfolk and Charleston, hence the push for the cross-bay tunnel because both those ports already have adequate rail access. Brooklyn doesn't.
As far as the roads go, a deep water port in Brooklyn could also justify the major rebuilt sought for the Gowanus Expressway, to stick it underground and widen it for the Interstate truck traffic. Road and rail advocates could be happy with this one, though obviously there would have to be entrances and exits from the highway to street level to allow the trucks to access the docks.
[The argument is the new generation of superfreighters will dominate shipping entirely in the next 10-15 years, and if nothing is done what little cargo NYC has left will be lost completely to ports like Norfolk and Charleston, hence the push for the cross-bay tunnel because both those ports already have adequate rail access. Brooklyn doesn't.
As far as the roads go, a deep water port in Brooklyn could also justify the major rebuilt sought for the Gowanus Expressway, to stick it underground and widen it for the Interstate truck traffic. Road and rail advocates could be happy with this one, though obviously there would have to be entrances and exits from the highway to street level to allow the trucks to access the docks.]
Sounds like exactly the sort of thing we should be doing.
I suspect that this sort of project would be easily within our means if we wised up a bit and recognized that a dollar that goes to job creation does far more for the area's residents than a dollar that goes to social services.
"I suspect that this sort of project would be easily within our means if we wised up a bit and recognized that a dollar that goes to job creation does far more for the area's residents than a dollar that goes to social services."
You are very perceptive, sir. Ihave served Medicaid populations as a physician, and I know that free clinics and the like only go so far. The dollars invested in dredging the channels, assurring efficient rail access and making sure that Maersk and APL and Kent and other shippers stay put is vital to helping people stay employed and have access to the important things in life (like health care, a place to live, a chance to post on Subtalk :-) etc.)
Since silt is always been pushed down the Hudson River basin, the PA would have to dredge every once in a while to maintain the shipping channels the ports have now.
[You are very perceptive, sir. Ihave served Medicaid populations as a physician, and I know that free clinics and the like only go so far. The dollars invested in dredging the channels, assurring efficient rail access and making sure that Maersk and APL and Kent and other shippers stay put is vital to helping people stay employed and have access to the important things in life (like health care, a place to live, a chance to post on Subtalk :-) etc.)
Since silt is always been pushed down the Hudson River basin, the PA would have to dredge every once in a while to maintain the shipping channels the ports have now.]
I understand they're having a hard time dredging the Jersey side because of environmental opposition.
Yes, in that some people are saying there's no acceptable place to dispose of, or sink, the dredged material. I don't think that's a tenable position, but once you get an "environmentalist" (I put the parens in because some really haven't earned that) worked up they don't back down, even in the face of their own stupidity....
I'm not saying we should be cavalier about the process - but let's be pragmatic and reasonable.
(You are very perceptive, sir. Ihave served Medicaid populations as a physician, and I know that free clinics and the like only go so far.)
A dollar spent on Medicaid doesn't go very far at all, since New York's Medicaid spending per recipient is 90 percent higher than the national average. The big bucks go to hospitals, nursing homes (which evidently provide sub-par care for gold-plated prices), home health care and "personal care." One category New York does NOT spend much for? Physicians. Better crank up those campaign contributions to get on the gravy train Ronny Boy, the piggy other health care providers are beating you (and the transit system and the school system) to the trough.
Supposedly it's been researched and checked out (at least according to Congressman Nadler, who has pushed the plan). Apparently the channel that feeds out from the Hudson is at its deepest point far closer to the Brooklyn side of the Upper Bay than to the New Jersey side, and while there would need to be some dredging, the area at least up to Buttermilk Channel and the Gowanus could handle the bigger ships.
The argument is the new generation of superfreighters will dominate shipping entirely in the next 10-15 years, and if nothing is done what little cargo NYC has left will be lost completely to ports like Norfolk and Charleston, hence the push for the cross-bay tunnel because both those ports already have adequate rail access. Brooklyn doesn't.
Nadler's advocacy of a cross-harbor rail tunnel hovers dangerously close to becoming an obsession. Sad to say, we'll probably be hearing even more of it now that he's lost bigtime on his other crusade (opposition to bankruptcy reform).
Shipping in the port of New York-New Jersey is not endangered by any stretch of the imagination. It remains the largest port on the east coast of the United States and the second largest in the nation (Los Angeles-Long Beach is number one thanks to all the cross-Pacific traffic). Yes, the channels require regular dredging, as do most harbors, and after some admittedly unnecessary delays the Port Authority has begun a dredging program. Maersk, the world's largest container shipping company, thinks enough of the port to have selected it as the company's east coast shipping hub. Cargo volume from all shippers has increased steadily for the past several years and shows no signs of slowing.
It is true that most shipping activity is on the New Jersey side of the harbor. That should not matter, except that most New Yorkers are unable to think regionally rather than locally. And come to think of it, Brooklyn's (tunnel-less) docks are doing reasonably well, handling some container traffic but more importantly carving out a niche as the nation's leading port for coffee and cocoa.
"It is true that most shipping activity is on the New Jersey side of the harbor. That should not matter, except that most New Yorkers are unable to think regionally rather than locally. And come to think of it, Brooklyn's (tunnel-less) docks are doing reasonably well, handling some container traffic but more importantly carving out a niche as the nation's leading port for coffee and cocoa."
The fact that most cargo processing happens in Jersey doesn't bother me either. That'But there is a difference betwee acknowledging that and condoning complacency, which I'm afraid you're doing. If our local ports want to keep shippers they must stay ahead in infrastructure improvements, staying ahead of competing ports for business. The shippers stayed in NY, but it was a close thing.
Nadler is not "obsessing." He's worried about the continued economically competitive status of our ports.
>>> "It is true that most shipping activity is on the New Jersey side of the harbor. That should not matter, except that most New Yorkers are unable to think regionally rather than locally <<<
These are tax generating activities, directly and from supporting businesses, so it does matter which state they are in.
Tom
I'd have to look up the information to see what the water displacement of these new freighters are supposed to be. They're not as big as the current supertankers (which unload at far-offshore transfer stations anyway), but they're still pretty good sized ships, and could make it into the Upper Bay using the main channel gouged out by the flow of the Hudson, but allegedly would have problems negotiating the waters on either side of the channel.
Since the channnel itself is closer to Brooklyn (and runs pretty much in a straight line from the midpoint of the Hudson at the GWB to the midpoint of the Verrazano), the argument is to build the new port facilities there in order to be ready for the day when more and more cargo arrives on these freighters (and if everyone else is cutting workers to save money, it wouldn't be surprising for shipping companies to go to larger freighters to cut the number of crews needed and the number of ships to maintain -- kind of like the reason the MTA went to 75 foot cars for the B Division).
While New York's port may be doing all right in 2001, the worst thing the city could do is go back to that late 1960s-1970s attitude of "We're New-effing-York and we're too important for (name your corporation) to leave," and then find out that that's exactly what they did (and as a side note, it was interesting to see the Seattle apparently has adopted New York's "they would'nt dare leave" attitude from 25 years ago and managed to loose Boeing's corporate headquarters last week. Hubris and stupidity are common to city governments all over the nation)
"Since the channnel itself is closer to Brooklyn (and runs pretty much in a straight line from the midpoint of the Hudson at the GWB to the midpoint of the Verrazano), the argument is to build the new port facilities there in order to be ready for the day when more and more cargo arrives on these freighters (and if everyone else is cutting workers to save money, it wouldn't be surprising for shipping companies to go to larger freighters to cut the number of crews needed and the number of ships to maintain -- kind of like the reason the MTA went to 75 foot cars for the B Division)."
You've got it right. Ships are becoming more and more automated; the fact that a lot of crews are already paid peanuts doesn't make shippers any less eager to get rid of them.
Efficient intermodal facilities (ship-train-truck and piggyback) increase a port's attractiveness. So does an efficient conveyor from the port (that is, the ability to get goods off the dock and to customers, and then get goods made in the US to the docks in time for shipping out). Things like freight rail tunnels can help.
While New York's port may be doing all right in 2001, the worst thing the city could do is go back to that late 1960s-1970s attitude of "We're New-effing-York and we're too important for (name your
corporation) to leave," and then find out that that's exactly what they did (and as a side note, it was interesting to see the Seattle apparently has adopted New York's "they would'nt dare leave" attitude
from 25 years ago and managed to loose Boeing's corporate headquarters last week. Hubris and stupidity are common to city governments all over the nation)
I think that New York has learned its lesson thanks to all the corporations that defied the "We're New-effing-York" 'tude and in fact did leave. It obviously would've been better had the city not thought that way in the first place and the corporations had never left, but I suppose it's better to learn a lesson the hard way than never to learn it at all. Not that there's any guarantee that history won't repeat itself. As time goes on, and more and more of the city's movers and shakers have no personal memories of the 1960's and 1970's, the old attitude might begin to reassert itself. But then again, maybe not. Even the most New York-centric politicians must realize that other cities and states are tougher competitors these days.
I haven't really followed the Boeing story too closely, but was this really a typical "Give us incentives (i.e. blackmail) or we'll relocate" case? I had thought that Boeing more or less spontaneously came up with the idea of relocating as a way of reflecting its diversified nature. Seattle's competitiveness or lack thereof really wasn't at issue.
The best chance for a Brooklyn-SI subway tunnel would be to piggyback it on the proposal for the cross harbor freight tunnel.
I'm not getting involved in this.
[I'm not getting involved in this.]
Heh I'm not that wise.
Why not multiplex both the tunnel and the truck lanes, using them for commuter travel during peak periods and dedicating them to freight at other times? Seems like a win-win scenario.
It would be the R. The Sea Beach goes to Coney Island, you hear? Bad enough they took my train off the Manny B, but you're not going to deprive us of Coney Island. The R can go to SI.
Michalovic also has a good idea connecting the 1 and 9,but I think such along tunnel under the bay would be extremely exspensive.A tunnel under the narrows would be alot shorter.I know Gravesend bay in Brooklyn is not very deep. I dont think the narrows would be much deeper,I dont think it would be a problem putting a tube from Brooklyn to StatenIsland.Then again England has chunnel to France anything is possible nowadays.
we extend the Hudson Bergen light rail across the Arthurkill providing Staten Island with a transit connection to north Jersey.
Kill Van Kull.
If I did, I'd go to jail.
Umm, that would be at least 6 miles of tunnel. That usually only happens when it connects 2 large, rich countries with no other land connection.
Once in Staten Island extend the R-train southwards and eventually link it to the already existing tracks of the S.I.R.T. The R-train will run local from Tottenville to SouthBeach.
The SIRR is a Railroad, you can't mix transit and railroads.
SIRT (NOT SIRR, which was the name of the short line that ran between Arlington and NJ) is an FRA exempt road, due to embargo. Due to washouts and 'deferred maintainence', there is no track connection. So long as it remains disconnected from the national network, it doesn't have to meet FRA standards.
-Hank
It's not SIRT either. The reporting marks are SIR. It is are on all the MoW stock and diesels and such, I saw it myself on Jan 9. It is the Staten Island Railroad and throwing away any chance of freight restoration or commuter rail from NJ would feriously hurt the island's economic devolopment.
It is the Staten Island Railroad and throwing away any chance of freight restoration or commuter rail from NJ would feriously hurt the island's economic devolopment.
Most of the ROW along the north shore would have to be rebuilt completely at great expense in order to be returned to service. I've never heard even a semi-serious proposal to that effect.
"Most of the ROW along the north shore would have to be rebuilt completely at great expense in order to be returned to service. I've never heard even a semi-serious proposal to that effect."
I've walked along it. It is in sorry shape. An eyesore. Easily a one to two billion dollar job to fully restore it (and add ADA compliance). It isn't happening anytime soon.
I am new to this discussion board,and i am already enjoying the company of my fellow train-buffs.Eventhough i have moved out of the city.I now live in Orlando Florida,but im still a NewYorican at heart.My Spanish is horrible. I am second generation,i am more comfortable with English.There is alot of good ideas here for a Staten Island connection.I like the 2nd ave idea proposed.I also enjoyed another posting that stated a plan in the 1920's to build a tunnel under the narrows.When I lived in StatenIsland, I remember the nightmare commute I had to take, to get to work in mid-town Manhattan.I hated my commute even more during the Winter months.Oh how i wished for a train to carry me directly from Staten to Manhattan
>>> .When I lived in StatenIsland, I remember the nightmare commute I had to take, to get to work in mid-town Manhattan.I hated my commute even more during the Winter months <<<
Nightmare? What was so tough about the ferry trip?
Tom
Once, when I was waiting for my first trip ever on the ferry (this was only a few years ago), I looked around for a ticket window. I asked a lady sitting on a bench where to buy a ticket. She snorted and said, "Get lost!"
Then I found out it was free.
"I asked a lady sitting on a bench where to buy a ticket. She snorted and said, "Get lost!"
As Don Imus said a few years ago.
"Welcome to New York.......Now get out !!"
Bill "Newkirk"
What a bitch. It would take less effort just to say it was free.
Was this when it was free both ways already, or when it still costed 50 cents to go from Staten Island to Manhattan (and free the other way)?
Yes, it was free both ways.
Ron: Typical NY attitude! :<
-cordially,
turnstiles
In my original posting i already explained that they should put an express train running through Brooklyn then once the train goes southbound into Staten it would run local.I already explained that yet everyone missed it the first time,yes we will have to put express tracks on the R line how else are you going to have an express running through Brooklyn duh!.It will most likely never happen but isnt it great to think about it.
Those are not 'reporting marks'. MTA calls it the 'Staten Island Railway' Its official name (on the city planning maps) is Staten Island Rapid Transit. There is no longer a Staten Island Railroad, although the line, when built, sold stock under the name Staten Island Rail Road. I've lived here and travelled on it for several years. I'll check my stock certificate later.
My statements on the embargoed status stand. The NYC EDC has rehabbed the AK bridge, and the line as far east as South Ave, and south to Travis Ave. There are pictures on the site of the track end. Freight service will begin as soon as the NJ part of the line is rehabbed, which includes a new connection to the Chemical Coast line on the east side of the NJ Turnpike.
-Hank
Well the flatcars and diesels were lettered SIR just like a box car is lettered NS, CSXT, GATX, PRR, NYC, MNR, AMTZ, etc.
Doesn't mean a thing. The cars are not interchanged. They have no build dates, their capacity information is incomplete. They could stencil KCUF on the cars, it means squat. Now, if the cars were interchanged, they'd have to get an official AAR id.
-Hank
I've seen intermodal containers on cinderblocks at Philly construction sites stencilled "СГЖ" (Soviet State Railways), but I doubt that's their main function now. [You might need to view in Unicode encoding to read the Cyrillic properly]
Oh, and prior to the MTA image change, the old flat cars had SIRT lettering.
-Hank
The R train is local all the way. It's too long a shlep all the way from Staten Island.
My idea takes advantage of the proposal to replace the Gowanus Expressway with a tunnel. When that tunnel is built, include a two-track subway tunnel.
The V would be extended from its 2nd Avenue terminus into Brooklyn, stopping at Essex and Jay, and then running along the (unused) F express tracks. Just past Smith-9th, the train would travel over a new connector to the new Gowanus tracks. From here there are two options: run along the Gowanus all the way to the new tunnel, or install a set of express tracks along the R south of 59th (I believe provisions were included for such an expansion) and switch onto them at the appropriate point.
>> Just past Smith-9th, the train would travel over a new connector to the new Gowanus tracks.... <<
Only problem here, of course, is that at Smith/9th the F/G trackbed is about 125ft in the air. How're you planning to get the express tracks back down to the tunnel?
Better would be to build a connection (and perhaps a lower platform) at Carroll St. to veer the express trains to your proposed new line.
While we're pie-in-the-transit-sky pipedreaming, here's my idea for new quasi-crosstown service in the outer boroughs (well, Brooklyn, anyway...)
How about reclaiming the currently unused lower level at the BMT 9th Ave station as a terminus for an extended Canarsie/L line?
It could start along Ave H, providing connections to the 2/5 at Brkln Coll./Faltbush Ave; the D and/or Q at either Ave. H (D) or Newkirk Ave. (D&Q); the F at Ditmas, and the B/M at the 9th Ave. terminus.
Whaddya think?
Sounds like the proposals to extend the Canarsie line over the Bay Ridge Line, eventually to connect with the Sea Beach.
Only problem here, of course, is that at Smith/9th the F/G trackbed is about 125ft in the air. How're you planning to get the express tracks back down to the tunnel?
That would be the best part of the ride! (Even I have a bit of Robert Moses in me.) It would swing over to 3rd Avenue and drop underground.
Better would be to build a connection (and perhaps a lower platform) at Carroll St. to veer the express trains to your proposed new line.
Boring, boring, boring. It would also lead to the somewhat odd situation of two sets of tracks along the same street, one set elevated and one set underground.
Naaaaah, if we're going to run a subway line all the way out to the end of the SIRT, we'd have to do something feasable. Extending the R would require so many cars it's not funny and the total trip would be measured in hours and not minutes. Besides, anything that further slows down the R train is an evil, evil thing. So...
Let's just create a new line solely for the purpose of going to Staten Island. Build the 4th Ave. express tracks. Then, run a train from Chambers St. on the Nassau St. line through Montague along 4th Ave exp. then through the narrows and local along SIR. Thoughts?
Dan
My proposal doesn't share one inch of track with the R. It uses existing excess track capacity (including the unused F tracks in Brooklyn) and a new tunnel to be built with the Gowanus (a big assumption, indeed). Other than the Narrows tunnel itself, very little trackage would actually be new.
[My plan to connect StatenIsland with the other boroughs.Im sure someone has figured this out already,if not here it goes.My plan is to extend the R-train south from Brooklyn.Run a tunnel beneath the narrows or build an extra deck on the Verranzano for trains, like the Manhattan bridge.Once in Staten Island extend the R-train southwards and eventually link it to the already existing tracks of the S.I.R.T. The R-train will run local from Tottenville to SouthBeach. Then once in Brooklyn it can run express,rushing Staten Islanders to work in lower Manhattan.I dont know how much it would cost.Or how succesful it would be.]
Frequent high speed ferry service to lower and midtown Manhattan, with improved links to the local subways, would likely offer faster access than any practical subway extension.
"Frequent high speed ferry service to lower and midtown Manhattan, with improved links to the local subways, would likely offer faster access than any practical subway extension."
A long straight subway tube would operate at higher speed than any ferry, and increase passenger carrying capacity across the water.
However, a new subway tube (or even adding subways to the V-Narrows, which may or may not be technically feasible) would be very expensive and would increase service loads on existing subways within Manhattan. Thus, more than likely a Staten Island subway connection would require some additional subway capacity within Manhattan.
I suppose one solution would be to extend the new Second Av subway to Staten Island - it should have more than enough capacity to accommodate commuters. Train speeds should be at least 70 mph.
But, this would be incredibly expensive - so I agree with you than ferries and improved ferry-to-subway connections would be the Preferred Alternative in this case.
[But, this would be incredibly expensive - so I agree with you than ferries and improved ferry-to-subway connections would be the Preferred Alternative in this case.]
That's what I meant by "any practical subway extension" -- I guess I should have been more specific.
Something else that Staten Islanders might want to ask themselves is whether they would really want a direct Manhattan subway link even if they could afford it. I have a feeling it would change Staten Island pretty radically, leaving the parts along the subway line more like the built-up parts of the other boroughs or Hudson County.
Not unless they make radical changes to existing zoning laws. Many of these areas are already well-built up. South of Richmond Ave, you've got the South Richmond Special Zoning District, which limits home size, lot size, and maintains requirements for public open space.
-Hank
And then there's something else to consider. Census results show that Staten Island (Richmond County) was the fastest-growing county in New York State during the 1990's. It is safe to assume that nearly all of the people who moved there did so with full knowledge that there would be no subway connection to Manhattan within any reasonable time frame. Yet they came nonetheless*. It seems to me, in short, that there isn't any overwhelming demand for subway service to Staten Island. Expanding the system where demand does exist makes more sense.
* = while this may be sheer heresy to mention on this forum, I've a sneaking suspicion that some people moved to Staten Island because it does not have subway service. That certainly wouldn't be my attitude, but some people think differently.
"And then there's something else to consider. Census results show that Staten Island (Richmond County) was the fastest-growing county in New York State during the 1990's. It is safe to assume that nearly all of the people who moved there did so with full knowledge that there would be no subway connection to Manhattan within any reasonable time frame. Yet they came nonetheless*."
Staten Island used to be quite pastoral. People came because there was an opportunity to buy single family homes at reasonable prices, and they were within striking distance of jobs in Manhattan and New Jersey. Remember that Port Elizabeth, one of the largest container ports on the East Coast and home to the world's largest shipping companies, is relatively close by.
"* = while this may be sheer heresy to mention on this forum, I've a sneaking suspicion that some people moved to Staten Island because it does not have subway service. That certainly wouldn't be my attitude, but some people think differently."
I don't think the subway played a big role in anybody's decision decision to settle or not settle in Staten Island. Some may have come because they did not have the social skills to deal with the heteogeneous populations one finds elsewhere (and the "subway carries lowlife scum" attitude is a symptom of that), and thus were looking for homes in white areas. Of course, Staten Island is turning heteogeneous itself, so some people will be "escaping" again elsewhere. Fine with me.
while this may be sheer heresy to mention on this forum, I've a sneaking suspicion that some people moved to Staten Island because it does not have subway service. That certainly wouldn't be my attitude, but some people think differently.
I don't think the subway played a big role in anybody's decision decision to settle or not settle in Staten Island. Some may have come because they did not have the social skills to deal with the heteogeneous populations one finds elsewhere (and the "subway carries lowlife scum" attitude is a symptom of that), and thus were looking for homes in white areas. Of course, Staten Island is turning heteogeneous itself, so some people will be "escaping" again elsewhere. Fine with me.
Interestingly, there is no statistical evidence whatsoever to support the so-called "loot rail" hypothesis (that subways or other rail transit brings inner-city criminals out to formerly safe suburban 'hoods). This belief arose a number of years ago after the Baltimore light rail system began service to the suburban town of Linthicum. Burglary rates in Linthicum rose significantly at about the same time, and many residents claimed that criminals from inner-city Baltimore were using the light rail to "explore" new territories.
As you might imagine, these claims got quite a bit of media attention, and "loot rail" was born. Yet few people paid attention when it was proven, not long afterward, that local youths - not rail-riders from Baltimore - were responsible for Linthicum's burglary epidemic. Any connection to the light rail opening was purely coincidental
[As you might imagine, these claims got quite a bit of media attention, and "loot rail" was born. Yet few people paid attention when it was proven, not long afterward, that local youths - not rail-riders from Baltimore - were responsible for Linthicum's burglary epidemic. Any connection to the light rail opening was purely coincidental.]
I do think subways encourage high density, though, all other factors being equal. And I've had people tell me they considered the *absence* of public transportation when they chose their neighborhoods. Some of the reasons expressed were blatantly racist --"black people choose to live where there's good public transportation" (guess that makes me black, then :-) )
"I do think subways encourage high density, though, all other factors being equal. And I've had people tell me they considered the *absence* of public transportation when they chose their neighborhoods. Some of the reasons expressed were blatantly racist --"black people choose to live where there's good public transportation" (guess that makes me black, then :-) ) "
I agree - and I admit to having a bit of social engineer about me. I'd like to encourage people to get along better so we don't have to rip up every tree in sight to build low-density housing. Higher density helps keep a lot of green around us - and the green helps keep our water supply and biodiversity safe...
My dad always believed that Rockaway went downhill after the subway came there in 1956. He believed that, even with the double fare at the time, it was so much more accessible to a "bad element" (plutonium?) that could come to the beach for the day. In the '60's, NYPD always had a paddy wagon on the Boardwalk at Beach 36.
[My dad always believed that Rockaway went downhill after the subway came there in 1956. He believed that, even with the double fare at the time, it was so much more accessible to a "bad element" (plutonium?) that could come to the beach for the day. In the '60's, NYPD always had a paddy wagon on the Boardwalk at Beach 36.]
I've heard that Robert Moses built low bridges at Jones Beach so that people couldn't come by bus . . .
"My dad always believed that Rockaway went downhill after the subway came there in 1956. He believed that, even with the double fare at the time, it was so much more accessible to a "bad element" (plutonium?) that could come to the beach for the day. In the '60's, NYPD always had a paddy wagon on the Boardwalk at Beach 36."
Obviously I don't agree with that, but I think it would be inappropriate for me to post here something hurtful to your Dad. So instead, I will ask you, how do you respond to what your dad says? You don't have to post if it makes you uncomfortable.
Very well said, Peter. And very sad indeed.
People don't want to believe that "our own kind" (whatever that means to an ignorant, bigoted mind) will commit crime, whereas it's easy to demonize people living down the road of a different ethnic background.
I have, on more than one accasion, met socially with people who hear something and say "the blacks did it" without the slightest hesitation. I even had a blind date once with a woman on Long Island (I guess this was 1993 or so), who, on seeing three black men enter a 7-Eleven, say "There goes the neighborhhod. I wish they would stay on their side of the tracks."
Oh well. I'm glad she said it then. I didn't have to ask her out again and have her embarass me with her mouth (and her hatred).
Being that this has come up, I witnessed a racist experience last week on the bus.
I got on a Q28 bus in Bayside, where the driver and an old woman were talking. Both were white.
The old lady was complaining to the driver "the asians are invading and ruining our neighborhood". The driver responds "The asians shouldn't even be here, they don't work hard, and the colleges were stupid to let them attend". I couldn't believe what I was hearing, all loud enough to hear throughout the whole bus.
And an NYCT bus driver, who was clearly racist, operating on a route in heavily asian NE Queens. Scary to think people like this drive a bus. He even said asians don't know how to drive, and that they don't deserve to be here. Then he asked me what I think. I didn't say he was racist because I didn't want to start a fight, but I did say I think asians are just as good as everyone else and chinese food and music is cool (in response to the old bigot lady who said chinese food is gross).
I was the only one on the bus with these two, and the lady got off elsewhere in Bayside. With two Q28's in front of us, I was the only one the whole way to Flushing. Needless to say I kept my mouth shut and avoided any conversation with this driver. I avoided saying anything about the experience, I'm not even reporting it even though I feel like it. Needless to say, I was quite angry and full of dismay that even in NYC with all these different people, racists still exist.
You can get that bastard fired, or at least reprimanded. Did you get his bus number or run number? You should report him.
Darn I didn't get the bus number. I just hope I don't have to see that jerk again!!
He took a risk, doesn't the MTA have "undercovers" ride the buses?
Why is it that the MTA doesn't believe in the First Amendment?
What this person said may have been repulsive in the highest order, and with that I agree, but I prefer to live in a world where people can say the most horrible things freely, than a world where speech is regulated.
The MTA is looking strictly at the business aspect. If bus drivers go off spouting racists bullshit, the MTA could lose alot of riders and have a whole bunch of legal and financial headaches. Just think of the lawsuits and lawyers and protests and protesters. They just have to cover their asses.
He wasn't spouting anything, he was having a private conversation with a lady and didn't get upset with confronted with Mr. Dash 7's contrary view.
Also don't forget that by soupting tolerance he could loose all the racist riders (like that lady). For all you know he was just trying to be agreeable with what the old lady was saying in an effort to improve customer service. Racists are people too and they spend money like the rest of us. What's wrong with trying to attract their bussiness.
Also don't forget that by soupting tolerance he could loose all the racist riders (like that lady). For all you know he was just trying to be agreeable with what the old lady was saying in an effort to improve customer service. Racists are people too and they spend money like the rest of us. What's wrong with trying to attract their bussiness.
From John's description of the incident, it sounds to me as if the driver wasn't merely trying to humor the old woman but was taking an active role in the discussion. As an official, uniformed representative of the MTA, that was out of line. He can say whatever he wants on his own time, off duty and out of uniform.
You should be able to engage in a solicited conversation no matter what kind of uniform you are wearing.
The fault lies with Q7. He should have confronted that driver head on and persisted. When we let racial or ethnic comments that are derisive pass without rebuttal we are almost as guilty as the creep who said in the first place. We will never beat this bigotry thing until we understand that we must not allow bigots to spout off their poisonous diatribes without risk of embarrassment to themselves. Then, and only then, will we get a handle on ending this wart on our nation.
Yes, I must agree. They say silence constitutes tacit approval. People like that old biddy grey up in a different time when obviously racist and xenophobic viewpoints and misconceptions were treated like the law of the land, i.e., utterly undisputable and infallible.
That old bitch and driver are LUCKY I wasn't on that bus, as he'd be out on a stress disability and I probably woulda given the old fart a corronary!! I've taken people to tow for a whole lot less, in many cases, for something as simple and as a counter-person waiting on an anglo first when a black/hispanic was actually the next one in line,
or a commission salesman in a nice store immediately descending upon a white customer who walks in the store right behind a hispanic, who came in first and gets completely ignored by the sales staff presumable cause all minorities have no money and are "just browsing".
Peace, Thomas :-)
It's confrontational Thomas and it could lead to hard feelings BUT it is a risk we have to take. Stand up for decency! It is well worth the price of harmony and inertia. They will not like what we do but they will think before they so such a rotten thing again. I know it works. I've done it.
I'm a short male 5'2 and the driver was taller than me. I wish I could've done something but I've learned to avoid fights.
I don't believe in fighting or violence.
This guy was a real nut, confrunting him would probably lead to an argument, maybe even a fight.
Sorry but I'm not gonna risk getting into a fight over words.
Maybe if I were big and tall I wouldn't be afraid to tell people my opinion, but I know I'd get my clocked cleaned for everytime I'd tell some guy he made a racist comment, shoved me in the subway,etc.
You never know who you're dealing with, even someone who may have a gun. It's safer just to keep your mouth shut and report it to the TA (I should've gotten the bus #).
John, my, how I feel for you!!! . . .
But you have more wisdom than you know, and will for sure outlive most of us, and peaceably at that. I am 6'2" 255 LEAN lifting pounds and built like a burly Irish Policeman or Fireman. I train daily as an amateur boxer and am already trained as a wrestler and a martial artist. And as if to spice things up abit more, I have the worst of two culture's (in)famous tempers to go along with that- A LATIN temper AND a CELTIC one.
As you might already have imagined, I have challenge quite a few people in both the literal and figurative term, and few if any, have accepted the challenge. Those who did were made to mourn the day they left themselves wide open by mistaking my politeness or kindness for weakness and docility. At the age of 26, I was easily going on 100 street fights, with no end in sight. Road rage incidents were almost a daily occurance with me, as I'd usually be bold enough to slam on my brakes, put my hazzards on, and get outta my car and walk to the offending car and knock on their window to ask just what the F*** their problem with me was!
At some point I realized I'd someday meet my match and probably end up in prison or in the grave. Trusted friends, my then-fincee, and teachers of mine who knew of my particular predisposition (it wasn't exactly hard to guess) would talk to me and tell me that I in fact already had the greatest weapon one could ever hope and ask for-a fine command of the English language. Words are to be your weapons, I was told, as I am telling you now John, and used the right way, can get you nearly anything, and reduce even the mightiest foe to tearfull aquiescence and retreat.
I no longer fight with fists, although if made to defend myself I would gladly do so and probably enjoy doing so quite a bit. I honed and sharpened my oratorical and expository writing skills like a blade in a sharpener during and after I got out of the Military, in addition to reading the classic discourses on non-violent change by Dr.King, Ghandi, Malcom X, and others.
I take great personal satisfaction and pleasure in channeling all this abundant energy into something positive like fighting social injustice and racism wherever I find it.
I have allied myself with various grassroots and social justice organizations, walked picket/protest lines, had letters to the editor published, confronted CEOs personally with lists of grievances, ended careers and employment, and in general, made myself an instrument of change.
Not to toot my own horn to much, but in honest self-appraisement, I seldom if ever lose.
You are right in not wanting to risk possible physical confrontation, but you'll find that people making inappropriate or racist comments
KNOW they are doing something wrong and when checked will nearly ALWAYS acknowledge their mistake and retreat. I still think you outta have told that errant B/O something, and without fear of physical retalliation. I really doubt he wouldv'e done anything to you. In the heart of all racists is not the hatred we see, but rather FEAR, and at the first sign of resistance or non-acceptance, 95% will turn tail, run, and regroup somewhere else.
In his 35 short years on this earth, the Christ-Child brought about more LASTING change, toppled more tyranny, and saved more souls than an entire LEGION of Soldiers ever could have. And all of this without ever laying a finger on anyone in aggression.
This is the role-model we should all try to live up to and learn from; this is in fact the moral of this entire post.
Hone your verbal and self-empowerment skills, John, and 5'2" or not, you will become a formidable opponent, one able to move mountains and reduce mighty men to mere mice. As I learned firshand growing up in Hell's Kitchen, "it's not the size of the dog in the fight, but rather the size of the fight in the dog."
I hope you take this post to heart and it inspires you as I have been inspired. A sacred torch of enlightenment and self-emplowerment is being handed to you- will you take it?
And as I asked you in a post yesterday, justice sometimes demands vengeance- are you prepared to be it's sword?
Peace and GB to all- Thomas:-/
Well said Thomas. And I like your self confidence and self assuredness. Q7 is not a big guy so maybe he did the right thing. I only hope that bus driver repeats his mistake again and is called on it. Where do you live? Are you a city resident? And what is your favorite train?
A very well written response. Thanks for the encouragement! :-)
You could have gotten his name and badge number (if he had one), the bus number, and reported the jerk. OK, you are not a strong man and wouldn't do well in a fight. I can understand that, but I just don't like it that that guy got away with what he said. I'll make book he will try that again. I hope when he does someone will call him to account for his bigotry.
Fred:
If your'e making book, I'll gladly place a bet- Since I'll surely win by tipping the odds in my favor because I'm just about OCD enough to ride this same route indefinitely until I get this same driver and wait for him to inevitably f**k up again.
At that point you can start a pool on the exact date he either:
1. Gets himself fired or reprimanded by yours truly.
2. Goes out on a stress disability brought about by yours truly.
3. Comes to within a hairsbreath of gettin' thrashed by yours truly,
and dies from the sheer fright of near-death alone.
4. "voluntarily" renounces his previous beliefs due to a rather
um, persuasive and effective re-education program on tolerance and diversity brought about by you know who.
Regards, Thomas >:-/
If you want to send private messenges why not use E-mail. anyone can read what you write here
He could use E-Mail or he can use Subtalk, what's the difference? That note was to me but it could apply to anyone who has an ax to grind when it comes to ignorance on the part of a small minded person. Don't tell me you're not pissed off at what that driver did, are you?
Thomas my friend, I'd give my left pinky to be there when that happens. If you know the route and could get a description of the driver it would be well worth the effort. He needs a jolt of some kind.
Freddy:
Make it a pound of flesh and throw in a quart of blood, and then we'll talk. -Peace, ThomasTheAnti-BullyBullySubwayEngine>:-(
Not really. That's why there is a time and place for "No comment" or "please call our public affairs office."
If you represent an organization to the public you have to know when to keep your mouth shut, when to open it and what to say. Or not to say.
Yup, I must agree, "discretion", as the saying goes, "is the better part of valor"! -Peace, Thomas :-/
"For all you know he was just trying to be agreeable with what the old lady was saying in an effort to improve customer service."
I totally see not getting into an argument with a racist passenger, but actively supporting her assertions -- while representing the transit authority and wearing its uniform -- goes way beyond that. When faced with someone spouting off like this (not necessarily just racist rants, but rants in general) that I have to deal with (I can't argue with them or simply ignore them), I make non-committal grunts, "uh"s, and other noises that give the person the impression I'm listening, WITHOUT expressly agreeing or disagreeing.
There are no "private conversations" on something as public and communal as a bus, and then esp. in a OA uniform. For "privacy", he shoul have the old biddy call him at home, where they can exhange all the racist banteer they want. Nuff said. -Thomas
IMO, the fewer racist riders, the better. I'm white, and my girlfriend happens to be African-American, and if somebody tried to get me into a racist conversation, then I would have said "Who died and made you God? We stole the land from The Native Americans and you get to decide who can stay and who must go?". As for Grandma Hitler, don't worry, she'll be off this planet and there will be one less racist to spew out the poison which is destroying this land. Believe it or not, I've said the same thing to my grandmother (just because she's a relative that doesn't mean I have to listen to that garbage).
Porky, as you are smart enough to already know, the first ammendment doesn't guarantee ANYONE the right to shout "FIRE!" in a crowded theater! It guarantees freedom of speech within certain acceptable standards and guidelines. what that B/O said was WRONG, wrong, wrong, and ya knows it! Not to mention in complete violation of MTA Rule #10, which prohibits employees from public incident or discourse that might bring criticism upon the MTA. I feel this firmly fits the description and would meet the acid test of judicial or quasi-judicial disciplinary inquiry.
Hatemongering and xenophobia have no place on anyone's lips, esp. when they are on taxpayer's time, driving the taxpayer's bus, and collecting taxpayer's money. While he's saying all of this, just who the hell is paying attention to driving the bus, anyway? The bus' autopilot controls? -Peace, Thomas :-/
I support your comments Thomas towards that guy. Keep speaking out!
Anyway, what that white bus driver said was wrong, but at least the bus company has a sizable share of black drivers. You can't say that about the Supermarkets around this town. When was the last time you saw a black male working in a Supermarket as a stock person or working as a cashier. If not at all, unless he's working as a security guard and is a caribbean born black.
What so many people don't understand, is that racism is promoted from the top and trickles down to the bottom. Just look at how your media stations display "news" (PROPAGANDA). Everyday viewers are subjected to negative images about black men being arrested or being charged with something. As a result, viewer get an impression that all black men are criminals.
Lets take a look at the school system and how it miseducates our "minority" students. Everday, children of color are faces with racism by untrain teachers who live outside their neighborhoods. And the curriculum is european base which doesn't reflect the children's heritage.
Ever go to the bank? Well... I can name several banks who doesn't hire blacks who are native to this country (ancestors 400 years). And look at the korean stores. They only hired Hispanics, excluding blacks/whites from employment.
And Look at who sells your newspapers, always an indian/arab person. Huh?
The United States is a very socially engineered society based on race. In a large part, it exist because so many people don't challenge it. They rather pretend that it doesn't exist.
Again. Racism is controlled from the top. If you don't change what happens on the top, you don't change it on the bottom (the bus driver).
N Broadway Line
"When was the last time you saw a black male working in a Supermarket as a stock person or working as a cashier. If not at all, unless he's working as a security guard and is a caribbean born black."
I, for one, won't be satisfied until I see blacks and other minorities have a chance not only to be stock clerks, but to manage the supermarkets.
"Lets take a look at the school system and how it miseducates our "minority" students. Everday, children of color are faces with racism by untrain teachers who live outside their neighborhoods. And the curriculum is european base which doesn't reflect the children's heritage"
Educaion in the US does tend to be "Eurocentric." And one of the biggest problems is the teacher or guidance counselor who fails to identify someone's talents and encourage them to develop skills needed for future success. This is where parents must become involved.
I know of one case where a bright high school kid was constantly shunted into remedial classes. Finally his mother showed up at school and demanded to speak to the counselor and principal. She showed them his grades, and told them that her child was headed for college, and if they did not visibly help him in that process there would be hell to pay.
Bravo! I say.
"I, for one, won't be satisfied until I see blacks and other minorities have a chance not only to be stock clerks, but to manage the supermarkets."
Your right RonInBayside, and thanks for correcting me. However, you must not group other blacks with other minorities like hispanics and asian. Many of them own and franchise store in many black american communities.
"I know of one case where a bright high school kid was constantly shunted into remedial classes. Finally his mother showed up at school and demanded to speak to the counselor and principal. She showed them his grades, and told them that her child was headed for college, and if they did not visibly help him in that process there would be hell to pay."
I love your example about the parent taking responsibility for her child's education. Too bad more parents don't follow her direction.
N Broadway Line
"Your right RonInBayside, and thanks for correcting me. However, you must not group other blacks with other minorities like hispanics and asian. Many of them own and franchise store in many black american communities"
It is not in anyone's best interest to minimize the pain and suffering non-whites have often endured in America. Hispanics are represented disproportionately under the poverty line, as are blacks. Not every Asian goes to Harvard, either.
The examples you cite must be used carefully. On the one hand, a cultural divide along with a certain amount of snobbery and stereotyping in the community has led some business owners to treat their black customers poorly and to wrongfully deny blacks employment.
On the other hand, their hard work, sacrifice and success in opening businesses is worthy of respect and emulation. Young black men and women need role models to show them how to do that. And Asians often have a strong, united family working as a team - another approach to emulate. Broken families are a handicap to anyone.
One young man's story is particularly appealing. Escaping from Vietnam at 15, not knowing a word of English, he ended up being the valedictorian in his class at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs. He is a joy to his family, and a credit to all of us.
Thanks for your kind and supportive comments , Ron! I too know of a guy, a paisano of mine, who graduated salutatorian from his high school in the deep south in the 1950s. He was of course told by his all WASP guidance counselors and teachers "Hey, youre pretty smart! I've picked up these admissions materials for you to various area refrigeration and technical schools, where you'll do just fine!"
I'm sure given their 1950s time/place specifics, they meant well, but the simple truth is that had he been white, they wouldve almost certainly been coaching him on what college to apply at.
Just a few years ago, yours truly applied for a white-collar position that was being co-advertised alongside a rather uneducted blue-collar
postion also at that same company. As it happened me and a white girl walker in the front door of this company at the same time, and announced we were "here for the job in the newspaper" nearly in unison. Without skipping a beat, the Marcia Brady-type receptionist immediately handed the girl the application for the office systems job,and of course yours truly the one for the grounds maintenance "position". Now, YOU KNOW I let her and her immediate boss have a peice of my mind!! It irks me that even in this modern day and age, many people are just not happy unless they see one of us with a leaf blower on our backs or 6 feet deep in the earth with a shovel in our hands.
That driver is luckey he didn't have me on that bus, or he'd be out on a stress-related dissability right now. That us, for the first few days until I had his ignorant miscreant ass terminated.
Peace, Thomas:-)
Now ya see? That's one of the truly neat things about here and the internet in general. You can't tell who's of what ethnic background and best of all it doesn't matter a bit. One of the many reasons why I'm glad to be part of it in the software company I work for. For once, race doesn't matter since we're all here for the trains. Same was true for the BBS's which preceded the "internet" ... nobody knows if you're a dog. :)
Now if we could just live our lives like this OFFline ...
Yes! That's why I like it. But not because of race (I'm white), because of age, which is my "disability." However still, people deride me because of my age because I've let it be known how old I am.
It is horrible that we live in a world where these things matter. I for one don't care whether someone's flesh is white, black, dark, light, green, red, violet or fuschia.
That's OK, when you get to be my age (50) the same thing happens only in reverse. "Old and in the way, just don't get it, can't party, can't dance" ... that ain't true but in our own little mental prisons, we all seem to have to have this inate need to exclude others because they're not just like us. Shouldn't matter but to many it does. We all have our own little biases I suppose.
FWIW, I don't care how old you are or how young you are - unless ya wanna try beating me with a spoon or something ... so raise up that ham hock with pride. :)
>>> people deride me because of my age because I've let it be known how old I am. <<<
No, Pork, no one derides you because of your age. Sometimes you put forth ideas which are not practical (no minimum voting age comes to mind), and those ideas are attacked, perhaps with the comment that as you grow older you will see things differently. But I cannot think of any posts that I have seen on this board suggesting that you should not participate in discussions or no one should pay any attention to you because of your age. Attacking an idea is not the same as attacking the person putting forward the idea.
Tom
(no minimum voting age comes to mind)
What's wrong with that idea. if a 12 year old can be charged as an adult than he should be aloud to vote.
Damn Skip, man!! Youre a "minor" when it suits the government,which is most ususally when they are trying to deprive you of some freedom or privelage, but can be an "adult" (a 13-yr old "adult"???) when it suits them or is convenient. At 17 you can be entrusted with weapons of mass-destruction provided you're doing Uncle Sam's bidding but not trustable with the right to vote or receive bar service. What gives, and why all the doublespeak and self-contradiction?
-Peace and G.B., -Thomas:-/
That's exactly the same argument I gave my mother when she told me she thinks it's a good thing that that Floridian boy was sentenced to life.
Basically my summary quote was: "When it suits the government to oppress youth, they're adults. When it suits government to oppress youth, they're children."
>>> What's wrong with that idea. if a 12 year old can be charged as an adult than he should be aloud to vote. <<<
That is a non sequitur, and it assumes that it is correct to charge a 12 year old as an adult. But even if you think 12 year olds should be allowed to vote, no minimum age also allows 3 year olds to vote. There is a difference between disagreeing on what a minimum age should be, and saying there should be no minimum age.
Tom
A three year old wouldn't be able to vote. There are certain qualifications that are necessary to go into a voting booth and cast a vote, a three year old won't do it. Hell, even if the three year old can read and operate the machine, the three year old won't even care, there are thirty-three year olds who don't care, and they don't vote either.
>>> A three year old wouldn't be able to vote <<<
Why not? All the newborns and up would be eligible to vote by absentee ballot so not being physically able to get to the polls would be no obstacle. Certainly you do not want to discriminate by age who may use an absentee ballot.
Not having any young children in my life, I do not know at what age they have sufficient motor skills to operate a voting machine. Let's say it's five years old when they are in kindergarten. I can just see the teachers drilling into the kids which lever they have to pull to vote for the measure to give kindergarten teachers a raise, or some demagogue telling parents to be sure to bring their little children to the polls to increase his vote totals. Without being an ageist and saying no 5 year old could cast a meaningful vote, I will go out on a limb and say that probably most 5 year olds cannot cast a meaningful vote, but with no age restriction they must be allowed to try.
To test each person for competence to vote would be too expensive, and would be subject to the abuses found in the Southern states before the Voting Rights Act. Therefore choosing a minimum age limit for voting is a rational way to determine who is entitled to vote. What that age should be is open to debate.
Tom
How would the child operating the voting machine sign the book at the voting booth, or how would he fill out the registration application.
People can have someone else apply, that can be solved by forcing in-person applications.
As for a teacher drilling a student to vote a certain way, many people are drilled in much the same way by an electron-firing tube.
>>> How would the child operating the voting machine sign the book at the voting booth, or how would he fill out the registration application. <<<
With an "X" like any other illiterate person.
>>> As for a teacher drilling a student to vote a certain way, many people are drilled in much the same way by an electron-firing tube. <<<
Yes, but this would add greatly to the number of people that could easily be manipulated.
Tom
Attacking an idea is one thing, but "the comment that as you grow older you will see things differently" is ageism.
It can't be used on a forty year old can it? Even if a hundred year old says it.
And it is probably true that I won't believe in abolishing the voting age when I'm 40, since it would have been years since it would affect me.
The advantage that racial and gender equality groups had is that you can't change your race and you couldn't then change your sex (and you still can't change your genetic sex). That is no excuse for oppression against youth.
And I still believe that abolishing the voting age is practical. In fact, it's the most practical age restriction to abolish.
<<< "the comment that as you grow older you will see things differently" is ageism.
It can't be used on a forty year old can it? Even if a hundred year old says it. <<<
Why not? At forty a man may say I could not live without my wife, or if I lost my mobility I would not want to live any longer, or I need the excitement of living in New York City, or I have plenty of time to save for my retirement. To each of these things a seventy year old widower in a wheelchair living on Social Security in Hoboken may say "when you grow older you will see things differently."
The process of aging is a continuous thing. A 20 year old cannot possibly know what it is like to be 40, but many 40 year olds can remember what it was like to be 20, and recognize the changes in himself. The recognition that an older person will have more life experiences than a younger person is not ageism. It is a fact. Saying that you will see things differently as you grow older is expressing an opinion based on the older person's observation of his own life. Saying something like "All 18 year olds are too immature to get married" is ageism even if the speaker himself was too immature to marry at the age of 18. On the other hand, if the older person says that a particular 18 year old (with whom he is familiar) is too young to get married, it is not ageism, but an observation of a particular individual.
Tom
What you say makes sense and I will not disagree, but you can't say the same thing about the same topic to a forty year old, that's really what I meant.
I'm not too young to vote, so my desire to abolish the voting age is because of how I remember being under eighteen, how I remember the voting process and other under eighteeners I know or knew. It's not like I want the voting age to be eliminated so I can vote.
>>> I'm not too young to vote, so my desire to abolish the voting age is because of how I remember being under eighteen, how I remember the voting process and other under eighteeners <<<
That is interesting. When I was 17, neither I, nor any of my contemporaries were at all interested in electoral politics (even though VP Nixon made a campaign stop in front of the high school, and we were allowed out to pad the crowd). We were preoccupied with graduating high school, and going off to college or other post high school plans. ("American Graffiti" rang very true to me when I saw it.) That may be because at that time the voting age was 21 and therefore we knew it would be awhile yet before we got to vote. Frankly, I do not know now if I would have taken more of an interest in politics then if I could have voted earlier.
Tom
>>>Ron! I too know of a guy, a paisano of mine, who graduated salutatorian from his
high school in the deep south in the 1950s. He was of course told by his all WASP guidance counselors and teachers "Hey, youre
pretty smart! I've picked up these admissions materials for you to various area refrigeration and technical schools, where you'll do
just fine!"
Thomas: That must have been most painful for your friend. The sad fact is that racism is most difficult to deal with, even when you are very highly qualified.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Thanx, "'stiles", and it's also highly unforgiveable and inexcusable when it comes from educated, supposedly cultured people (academicians, etc.) who SHOULD KNOW BETTER!!
Oh, BTW- there's a happy ending to my story. My friend instead enlisted in the then brand-new USAF, where one of his first commanding officers immediately noticed his intelligence and potential, and sponsored him for an officer's commission after first getting him into night college studies, mostly at the government's expense. Upon completion of an officer's committment, he then got out and was awarded a law-school scholarship.
Today, he is a very high-priced and high-powered Attorney with one of the most prestigious law firms in the country, and sits on the Boards of many large US banks and corporations. His 2 sons have followed in his footsteps, i.e., both are also attorneys, and none have forgotten their humble beginnings and how their family's success almost never happened.
I thank you once again for your forum and sincere empathy.
Warmest Regards, Thomas :-/
"Ron! I too know of a guy, a paisano of mine, who graduated salutatorian from his
high school in the deep south in the 1950s. He was of course told by his all WASP guidance counselors and teachers "Hey, youre
pretty smart! I've picked up these admissions materials for you to various area refrigeration and technical schools, where you'll do
just fine!"
I understand your point. The young man was prematurely "tracked" without his consent. That's wrong. But don't dismiss vocational school entirely. Some tracks have demanding training and require long apprenticeships.
Remember that a plumber can work on a $100 pump in my mother's basement, or $10 million dollar pump in a factory. I submit to you that the latter certainly has a bright future (the former, too, if he/she is a good businessperson).
HVAC techs who push hard and learn can be in charge of huge systems on ocean liners and aircraft carriers and be responsible for hundreds of people. That's not a bad career choice for some.
Tool and die making and jig building are highly specialized crafts with a shortage of people - and no matter how many computers enter into manufacturing, no one seems to be able to replace them. Pair those skills with night college studies or other training, and your future is bright indeed.
In New York, the Port Authority's sponsorship of the Aviation Institute at York College represents yet another vocational track worth considering.
General Electric's nuclear reactor operator school is the toughest and most demanding and unrelenting in the world outside the US Navy's and is the equivalent of a technical college education - yet it too is actually a "vocational" school. Its graduates are highly respected professionals, because they carry vocational diplomas which are accepted and respected in industry.
What I am getting at is this: a person who wishes to use his/her aptitudes should be offered every chance to do so in the best possible way. For some, it's college. For others it's vocational school.
Vocational schools if out of favour or neglected could be a major disaste to economy. Skilled labour is definitely needed, and perhaps will be better off than unneeded college graduate.
Arti
Ron: This is a good post, Ron. Skilled labor can be difficult to come by.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Hell Turnstiles, ESPECIALLY when you are highly qualified!!!
-Peace, Thomas:=)
>>> I'm sure given their 1950s time/place specifics, they meant well, but the simple truth is that had he been white, they wouldve almost certainly been coaching him on what college to apply at. <<<
You do not have to go back that far to find that kind of thinking. In one school system in central California, under the guise of bilingual education, all Latinos were placed in one vocational track, and all Anglos in college preparatory work just a couple of years ago. This was one of the reasons bilingual education was opposed in California. Separate but equal rarely turns out to be equal.
>>> Without skipping a beat, the Marcia Brady-type receptionist immediately handed the girl the application for the office systems job,and of course yours truly the one for the grounds maintenance "position". Now, YOU KNOW I let her and her immediate boss have a peice of my mind!! <<<
Congratulations on getting a chance to vent because of this woman's innocent insensitivity. She was no more than a product of her environment, and not acting maliciously. Did giving the boss a piece of your mind, as opposed to just telling the receptionist she had handed you the wrong application, get you the job you wanted?
Tom
I, for one, won't be satisfied until I see blacks and other minorities have a chance not only to be stock clerks, but to manage the supermarkets.
That's odd, the Acme in my white well to do town has* a black manager.
*He might have been replaced (after quite a long stint), but I think the new manager is a black woman.
Educaion in the US does tend to be "Eurocentric."
Its not their fault most things were done or invented in Europe.
Its not their fault most things were done or invented in Europe.
That's not it, most things were invented here in the United States. The reason is that Europe is the primary root of our culture. Or current curriculum has TOO MUCH focus on other cultures, which are largely irrelevant. Learning about African culture is just a matter of entertainment.
In other places they can learn less about Europe and more about other places, but they would still have to learn about Europe.
>>Its not their fault most things were done or invented in Europe<<
Maybe, but they don't have to be smug about it, and if I can remember, most things were invented in The U.S.
who live outside their neighborhoods. And the curriculum is european base which doesn't reflect the children's heritage.
The curriculum should be heritage free. Numbers are numbers where ever you are and proper English is proper Engligh where ever you are (except the UK). They should learn an uninterperative US history based on quantative importants of events. People in this country need to stop looking back at Heritage and look forward into the future. We're all on the same team now and we need to work together to kick butt in today's global economy.
>>> They should learn an uninterperative US history based on quantative importants of events <<<
Great idea! Now who determines the quantitative importance of events? Would it be a WASP who's ancestors arrived on the Mayflower, someone named O'Hara who's ancestors arrived in the mid 19th century, an American of Japanese ancestry who spent his youth in a concentration camp, perhaps someone whose ancestors were slaves and considers the history from 1955 on to be the most important time in U.S. history, or even a Native American. Objectivity is not always easy in such things as history.
Tom
Great idea! Now who determines the quantitative importance of events?
Computers that track various national statictics and determine what the turning points were.
>>> Computers that track various national statictics and determine what the turning points were. <<<
You have great faith in technology in your brave new world. Keep in mind the principal of GIGO. Who would program the computers?
Tom
Jersey Mike: Yes, we should all be on the same page because we are all on the same team and we should get ready to kick butt. BUT-----a team has to be unified and as of now we are not as unified as should be. Looking at the past and claiming victimhood doesn't sit well with me either, but can there be any doubt that inequities still exist? I remember those Texaco Execs that were caught on tape casting very racist aspersions against fellow African-American employees. And I remember those four black FBI agents in Virginia who waited over an hour and were not served by some pathetically bigoted waitress in complete violation of the law. And I remember three balcks that were not admitted to a Red Onion restaurant in Orange County, California because they didn't like their hair cuts. This sort of crap still goes on and it has to stop. It is up to us to stop it, and we can start by exposing all those creeps who refuse to recognize that we are all on the same team. We are Americans.
People should start thinking "if a restaurant doesn't want to serve 30% of their potential business it's tier loss." There will always be raciest but laws only make harder for good intentioned people. If a private business wants to discriminate it should be their right.
>>> If a private business wants to discriminate it should be their right. <<<
And you think it is OK if every restaurant for 100 miles around decides it will only feed you at the back door? Get real.
Tom
If every restaurant for 100 miles does the same thing than it is a violation of anti-trust laws.
>>> If every restaurant for 100 miles does the same thing than it is a violation of anti-trust laws. <<<
That may be true if it were a conscious decision agreed between the owners, but if it were just custom and practice in the area it would not be a violation of the anti-trust laws.
Sorry for using such an extreme imaginary hypothetical situation. I realize that sort of thing, or letting you sit only in the balcony of a motion picture theater, or allowing you admittance to an amusement park only one day a week, or requiring you to give up your seat on a bus so someone else just as healthy as you could sit, could not possibly happen in the United States even without laws prohibiting those things. (Maybe a touch of sarcasm included)
Tom
Not if that business benefits from public services, advertises and is open in a public venue, received state-funded assistance or subsidies...the Supreme Court did make allowances for private groups such as the Boy Scouts and Bob Jones University; the latter had to renounce any and all financial ties to the state.
(Not if that business benefits from public services)
If they pay the taxes they should receive the services regardless of their business practices.
(advertises and is open in a public venue)
If it is privately funned they can do whatever they want.
(received state-funded assistance or subsidies)
Agreed all socialism should be done away with.
(Not if that business benefits from public services)
If they pay the taxes they should receive the services regardless of their business practices.
Technically correct in that someone at Bob Jones University who dials 911 will still receive police services.
"Agreed all socialism should be done away with."
You're on shaky ground here. Economists actually agree that race and gender discrimination prevents a society from operating at its production-possibilities curve. Deny anyone an opportunity to contribute on the basis of skin color or ethnicity, for example, and your enterprise becomes inherently inefficient compared to others in a free market.
Raise your hands, folks ... how many consider yourselves to be "Italian-American," "Irish American, "African American?" If so, you're racist. We're all mongrels here regardless of our backgrounds - we're ALL Americans and we're ALL in the same boat together. That's step one.
John Rocker's snide comments really cheesed me off over the "7 train" and in this country, any newcomer is subjected to that, from Irish to Polish, to Korean and on and on. What is particularly disturbing though is that the Natives who were here before any of us as well as many blacks are STILL subject to discrimination after older ethnic groups were displaced by new ethnic groups to pick on.
People are people ... and ethnic diversity is something to be celebrated because that diversity gives us a leg up on many other more "homogenous" nations we "compete" with. But in the end, we're ALL Americans, something we should think about when we feel the need to boost our own self-image by trouncing on that of others. We're all in this together and we all swim together or sink separately.
SelkirkTMO: Right on! You captured the essence of what we're supposed to be about. I believe there are millions of good people out there who believe as we do. One of these days soon those bigots will be afraid to come out into the sunlight and will sink the holes and crevices where they belong.
With Bill Clinton on the message (finally!) I had a lot of hope. That's waned since we've now got a "good ole boy" shirt-kicking down in Deecee now ... never met a death sentence he couldn't get his rocks off on. Therefore, it's now up to *US* to try to keep that message alive. On my very first job after getting out of DeWitt Clinton HS, I ended up working for C&M Color TV on Beverley and Nostrand, a black owned business. In fact, I was the only white boy there. Everybody lived out by Betsy Head in Brownsville so I got a fast course in reality early on. Same when I worked for the TA. All of the crap you hear growing up melts away when you're out in reality and learn that everything you got told by bigots was dead wrong. :)
"That's waned since we've now got a 'good ole boy' shirt-kicking down in Deecee now."
I'm sick and tired of the presumptions and insinuations that Dubya is racist because he's a Republican and/or a Texan. One of the things that brought him to the fore when the GOP leadership was picking a "favorite son" (pun partially intended) to promote as a presidential candidate was that when the California GOP was pushing all sorts of anti-immigrant measures throught the legislature and ballot-box in California a few years back (1996?), Dubya told the Texas GOP in no uncertain terms that they weren't going to have that sort of nonsense in Texas.
Ask the bodies stacked like cordwood down yonder who got their injections. Ask the people turned away at the polls who would have voted for the "wrong guy" and were protected from doing that. I'm sorry but Dubya does not impress anyone about being "enlightened."
(Ask the bodies stacked like cordwood down yonder who got their injections.)
If you believe in the death penalty (I do not) you have to put all people guilty of first degree murder to death. to do what most states due and put about 1% of people to death does no good. Gore was also in favor of the death penalty.
(Ask the people turned away at the polls who
would have voted for the "wrong guy" and were protected from doing that.)
do you have any proof the bush was involved in that?
Wow ... we've rolled so far off topic now, it's time to call NTSB. Heh. I'm personally anti death penalty just so you know where I stand, life without parole is kind of overkill as well unless there is no way at all to cause a killer to get a grip. But Shrub wasn't willing to stop any execution even in the presence of proof that they didn't do it. And in his own wimpy style, blamed the parole board for tying his hands. What a crock.
As to the people being turned away from the polls, it was in the papers at the time ... there were MANY turned away. There was also the issue of those ballots in primarily black neighborhoods that never made it to the tallyers but I digress. I'm not a journalist any longer, not my job to prove or disprove. People who have a partisan view of politics (either side of the aisle) won't be swayed by facts.
Florida SHOULD have revoted or recounted statewide given so many irregularities and problems. There was time. Instead Shrub and his boys ran out the clock so we'll never know for sure. That alone shows enough bad intent to satisfy me as to what I'm still smelling.
Well said, and I'm in 100.00% agreement! -Peace, Thomas :-)
>>> But Shrub wasn't willing to stop any execution even in the presence of proof that they didn't do it <<<
Hey, he was governor of Texas, not an absolute monarch. Can you cite one case in which he had the ability under Texas law to prevent an execution where he had proof (as opposed to some evidence) that the condemned was not guilty and allowed the execution to go forward?
Tom
This is really off topic and I've violated the rules here more than enough already. He claims his "bully pulpit" ... he claims his "ability to bend an unfriendly legislature to his way of doing things." He claimed "leadership" ... if an actual LAW prevented him from doing what was right, he had the power to convince the legislature to change it. As governor, he had the power to appoint.
Now either he was full of crap or he didn't care. After two terms, it doesn't much matter. And when he did appear on TV to talk up his morality when questioned about so many of those executions, he did seem to be smiling as he condemned them to death ... but again, subtalk ain't the place for this. You seem to be a Shrubbie, so were I to parade mountains of facts and pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one, would it change your mind anyway? No offense intended here.
Watch the closing doors please ... bing bong ...
>>> if an actual LAW prevented him from doing what was right, he had the power to convince the legislature to change it <<<
You are blaming the shrub for not doing your version of what is "right". He was a politician in a state where the voters overwhelmingly favored the death penalty and the right for everyone to bear arms. Maybe you would have the cajones to try to convince the legislature to change the law to give yourself more power to be seen by the voters as being soft on criminals by commuting sentences, but politically it was better for him to hide behind the weak powers given to him.
Maybe he could have campaigned against the death penalty and against easy gun ownership, but maybe he actually believes in those things, and most assuredly his political advisors told him that being on the "wrong" side of those issues would mean political suicide.
Even saying all that, it would not excuse allowing an innocent man being put to death. But if there had been such a case, I am sure it would have come up early and often during the presidential campaign.
Tom
>>> Ask the bodies stacked like cordwood down yonder who got their injections <<<
Although I am no fan of the Shrub, this is a bit of a cheap shot. Texas has always been quick with the death penalty, and the Governor's ability to commute a death sentence is very limited.
Tom
Old Tom:
What if anything makes the Governor's powers so "limited"? Simply put, if he wants to he can, with just one stroke of the pen! Question: how many people have we put to death, and esp. in Texas, where irrefutable evidence later is revealed tha completely exonerates the accused? The # is is estimated to be around 17,000 nationwide since the birth of this supposed "demoracy" where "all are created equal" (whatta joke)Can we absolutely 100% guarantee that no more will face this fate being innocent? No, we obviously cannot. So then why do we continue this practice? To show third-world countries how much meaner and more bad-assed we first worlders can be?
I know it isn't for deterrence value, because statistics PROVE a curiously HIGHER correlation of capitol offenses in states with the death penalty over those that don't.
I know it can't be for economic reasons, hell, if it's really that much cheaper to simply execute someone than warehouse them for life, let's just murd- er, I mean "execute" everyone, petty misdemeanants included.
I know it can't be to "undo" whatever wrong they've done- Killing someone since they've killed also does not bring the victim back or make reparartions. Any "closure" is unreal and short-lived for the victim's families since their loved one is still gone and murdered.
The DP is applied, and then ESPECIALLY in shrub's home state of Texas very disproportionately to blacks and hispanics, and at that to mainly the poorer ones, creating a racist dimension. This may be the only real race preference/affirmative-action program left today, if youre a minority the'll sign you up for it right away and put you to the head of the line.
Death Penalty= State sanctioned/state carried out HOMICIDE
Killing those who've killed to show them killing is wrong=Hipocrisy and self-contradiction.
At least by instead substituting life imprisonment, not if but rather when we discover someone's innocence or crucial errors we've made in their trial, we can pay them off and set them free. The DP is just too final and irreversable.
I just love those who are foaming at the mouth dead-set ( pun-intended) against abortion but vehemently in favor of capitol punishment. Apparently SOME and not ALL human life is invaulable and worth saving at any and all costs.
The 10 commandments includes "Thou shalt not kill"- notice "murder" is not used, which means that this includes any and all types of and reasons for killing.
The moral of this posting is END THE DEATH PENALTY NOW!!!!!
-Peace, Thomas:-)
>>> What if anything makes the Governor's powers so "limited"? <<<
The constitution of the State of Texas.
>>> Simply put, if he wants to he can, with just one stroke of the pen! <<<
How can he do that if it is not permitted by the law of the State of Texas? And don't blame me, I neither wrote nor voted for those laws.
Tom
Old Tom and other Shrub sympathisers:
Dubya has never demonstrated any compulsion or tendancy not to change other laws that didn't please or suit him, so why should this be any different? And yes, I've checked the TX Const. and the power to commute lies with the board of pardons and paroles- most are bush flunkie appointees and would have basically pardoned anyone he tells them too. Shrub sho' does act helpless and handtied when it's convenient to him, and authoritive and reform-minded other times when it suits him.
Say, what do you think the criminal penalty should be, for, say for example, snorting cocaine on Federal Property of being embroiled in an investment scam where everyone except miraculously you loses their shirts and you come out ahead by several hundreds of thousands of dollars?
Peace, Thomas :-)
>>> Dubya has never demonstrated any compulsion or tendancy not to change other laws that didn't please or suit him, so why should this be any different? <<<
What laws are those that he has changed in Texas? As a politician, he always keeps a finger in the wind to find out what his constituents want. He certainly would not change a law that is supported by a large majority of his constituents.
>>> the board of pardons and paroles- most are bush flunkie appointees and would have basically pardoned anyone he tells them too <<<
Although the board members are appointed by the govenor, what is your authority for the allegation that he has the ability to order them to vote as he wishes? If that is the case, it is a perversion of the law because the board is appointed to make it independent of direct political pressure.
>>> what do you think the criminal penalty should be, for, say for example, snorting cocaine on Federal Property of being embroiled in an investment scam where everyone except miraculously you loses their shirts and you come out ahead by several hundreds of thousands of dollars? <<<
I don't think my opinion of what those penalties should be are particularly relevant, and even further off topic.
Tom
(what do you think the criminal penalty should be, for, say for example, snorting cocaine on Federal Property )
There should be no penalty for doing drugs anywhere other than while driving an endangering others. The war on drugs is the biggest scam ever. Talk about a waste of federal money.
I agree completely, but just try telling the big, bad, arrogant United States they are in a war they can't possibly win. This would probably just make them wanna fight it even more. Just look at Viet Nam- for how long did we have to continue to get our butts kicked as seem the BOYS we sent off to fight come home in body bags before we could finally face the fact that we were losing?
I question how much "freedom" we actually have when big government can tell us what we can and cannot put into our bodies, when we must and must'nt have unplanned pregnancies, what countries we can and mus'nt visit, etc. The truth is we do not really own ourselves as much as we believe we do!!
Although I do not personally believe in the use of or selling of illegal drugs, I recognize it as a war we will not ever win and what should really be a personal choice and individual decision.
The "snorting cocaine on federal property" was cleverly disguised reference to supposedly "law and order" oriented dubya's use of cocaine while visiting in the White House in the 1980s. How can he pretend to send people to prison and the death chamber when arguably, he should himnself be doing prison time for not just the coke, but the sham investment scam he ran on some people a few years back?
He is a HYPOCRITE and a PHONY, and is a sterling example that for the WASP socio-economic and socio-political elite, the RULES JUST DON'T APPLY THE SAME WAY THEY DO TO THOSE WHO AREN'T!!!!
Peace and GB, Thomas :-)
There should be no penalty for doing drugs anywhere other than while driving an endangering others. The war on drugs is the biggest scam ever. Talk about a waste of federal money.
AMEN MAN! AMEN!
I can understand your difficulty with the death penalty.
I support the death penalty. I also support the actions of the governor of Illinois, who placed a moratorium on a process he felt was not being carried out properly. Fair enough.
But I support it nonetheless. I don't support it as a deterrent, because it is not, per se. Neither do I support it for revenge, because vengeance is not an apropriate goal for civilized society.
I do believe that there are a few people who need to be put to death, because not only can they not function in society, they also present a clear danger to those assigned to supervise them.
Examples include a biker who murdered a police officer in the course of a robbery, then spent his entire prison career assaulting other inmates, threatening staff members and preventing other inmates from getting attention which could help them survive and perhaps rehabilitate themselves; or the Jeffrey Dahmers/John Wayne Gacys of the world, who have demonstrated themselves to be incorrigible, and whose incarceration is a toll on human resources. I'm not referring to the tax dollars used to incarcerate them. I'm referring to the stress and attention of a fixed staff who should be focused elsewhere.
Then there are the multiple murderers. Executions, however, should be reserved for the worst cases, as judged by a judge and jury, and reviewed by higher courts.
Each situation above has alternate solutions, opponents will say - and they are right about that. But I sincerely feel there comes a point when the best, most humane solution for everyone, the one which minimizes suffering and the one which helps preserve the safety and sanity of those around them, is an execution carried out as painlessly as possible (currently, that is the lethal injection method).
I respect you well-written and civilized dissenting opinion on my post. But for all those, who like you, are primarily concerned with just deserts for the truly unrehabilitatable, the continuous misery and agony of life in prison sans parole is a far worse punishment then being put out of one's misery pleasantly and painlessly by the needle. And as for all those assigned to warehouse them, hey, they know what they're getting themselves into when they sign up, and if there are some inmates that scare or intimidate them, then obviously they are in the wrong line of work.
When we will we as a society be able to simply admit that, YES, the real reasons we have the death penalty is for satiation of a lust for REVENGE?
Peace and GB, Thomas :-)
TMO: Do me a little favor. Give the guys some time. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. If not, you will have my company is expressing bitter disappointment in the man. I think he will do ok.
From what he's done so far, I doubt I will be surprised by any of his actions.
He's already gone against a campaign promise to limit Carbon Dioxide emissions, implemented government funding for faith-based programs, repealed OSHA requirements pertaining to repetitive motion and worked against organized labor. Gifts for his big business friends at the cost of the common people.
"He's already gone against a campaign promise to limit Carbon Dioxide emissions,"
I don't know about campaign promises, but the whole carbon dioxide thing is a LOT more complex than it first seems. Electric power generation (outside California, anyhow) and industry depend on Powder River Basin (Wyoming, IIRC) coal because of its low sulfur content, thus allowing them to comply with the existing clean air regs. But the proposed CO2 regs would have pretty much nixed using Powder River Basin coal and made the use of natural gas close to mandatory.
1) Which is more important, CO2 or sulfur emissions? Maybe CO2 *is* more important, and this is a bad decision. But controlling one pollutant versus another is a more complex, less black-and-white, issue than how this has been spun in the media.
2) Coal is plentiful in the United States, natural gas much less so.
3) Coal is one of the main reasons for the present strong health of the freight railroad industry. Natural gas rarely if ever travels by rail.
4) Natural gas and oil are commonly in the same deposits, and therefore natural gas is part of the petroleum industry. By not adopting the CO2 regs, Dubya has made a decision AGAINST the interests of the oil industry, contrary to those who presume that because he was an oil-man that he would always make pro-petroleum industry decisions.
Some people dont seem to get it. Bu$h STOLE the election. The congressional ramrodding of unpopular ANTI PEOPLE/PRO BUSINESS "laws", the phony energy crisis in Califonia so NEEDED regulations are scrapped, the Stock market in freefall, caused by a combination of bu$h talking down the CLINTON miracle to help grease the skids for his tax cut GIVE AWAY to the fatcats and the Republican fear factor destroying consumer confidence, A partisan military, badly in need of permanent institutional downsizing holding deadly bu$h fundraisers on nuclear submarines and most of all, the contemptible FOOLS on the sUPREME cOURT who will be laughed at when we get our country back. all are reasons that the Republican party is the natural ENEMY of the common man. Of course, bu$h will start a war or allow a war to develop so that his WELFARE programs for big business will be protected. the hell with the boys coming home in body bags, their AGI isn't high enough,
Fossil fuel supplies in the US are ranked (in amounts of proven and potential reserve): Coal first, Natural Gas second, Oil third. It should be noted that a process to convert coal to a form of liquified gas is available, though I don't know how extensively it is used or how expensive it is.
Basically, if you start with any long-chain or complex hydrocarbon, you can use catalysts to break it down to simpler, clean-burning hydrocarbons: propane (3 carbons), butane (4 carbons), pentane (5 carbons), hexane (6 carbons). The more carbons you have the more likely you will achieve incomplete combustion and exhaust byproducts, instead of just CO2. Gasoline is, if I recall correctly, mostly pentane in combination with butane and hexane and traces of other compounds. Diesel is heavier (comes out earlier in the catalytric cracking process) and in the past, barium has been added to the fuel (#2 diesel) to reduce "smoking." I'm not sure exactly what the barium does, but it probably functions as a catalyst itself to promote complete combustion.
Gasoline is, if I recall correctly, mostly pentane in combination with butane and hexane and traces of other compounds
Octane (8 carbons) obviously
and those numbers refer to the longest chain of consecutive carbons in the molecule. Isopropanol, for example, has four carbons, but because it's in a T shape, no matter which way you go, it's 3 in a row, with one off to the side (hence the iso-).
You seem to have a knowledge of petrolium products. Can you correct me if i'm wrong. It is my understanding that # 2 heating oil and deisel fuel are the same. the excepttion being the addition of colored dye to determine use. Clear for road use, green for farm use and red for home heating. The only other difference being federal tax added depending on use.
Is ther any other difference in handleing,refining, or additives to the differt uses?
Thanks
avid
I might seem to know my petroleum products, but I don't know that much.
>>> It is my understanding that # 2 heating oil and deisel fuel are the same. <<<
When I lived in Germany I had to get ration stamps to buy oil for my stove. When I asked if there was a shortage, I was told that the purpose was to prevent the (lower priced) heating oil from being used in diesel vehicles. So if they are not the same it seems that they are close enough to be substituted for one another.
Tom
Diesel Fuel and #2 heating oil are the same, except for the dye in diesel to prove the motor fuel tax is paid. I have a friend who lives out in the western MD boonies and used to drive a diesel VW. One winter the fuel truck didn't show up (there was 32" on snow on the gound at the time) and he needed to get to work. He syphoned a gallon from his furnace tank into the car's fuel tank and off to work he went.
Thank you for the added note. "High octane" obviously referring to the % of octane in the mix. You paid attention in organic chemistry...
Thanks John. We have a tough job selling people on the fact that Republicans are intolerant yahoos. Most of us believe in the precepts that this country is founded upon, and it would do me great pleasure if those who don't believe in those things get the h ell out of the party and now. We got rid of Buchanan, one of the most odious and disgusting bigots we had. We need to get the broom out and continue the job.
>>> We have a tough job selling people on the fact that Republicans are intolerant yahoos. <<<
That's not a tough sell at all.
Tom
Old Tom: There should have been the word NOT between are and intolerant, and I should have proofread my note before posting. And we ARE NOT a bunch of intolerant yahoos. We'll get rid of those kind in due course.
The worst part of the Republican party is the RELIGIOUS WRONG. They ruin the whole party, jettison them and it'll be all good.
Amen to that.
>>> There should have been the word NOT between are and intolerant <<<
Oh, in that case you are right. It WILL be a tough sell.
No, it hasta be more of a "bamboozle" or a "con". . . -Peace, Thomas
[We got rid of Buchanan, one of the most odious and disgusting bigots we had.]
That was mere window-dressing. Buchanan was and IS still held in high regard by some in the Republican Party. A good many people believe in alot of his ideaology and that is something that can't be ignored.
BMTman
Buchanan was detailed by the Republicans to take over and destroy the Reform party.
Well gentlemen, I can see that none of you are buying what I'm trying to sell. But you are dead wrong if you think grass roots Republicans think like Buchanan in most parts of the country. Most of us believe in the Big Tent philosophy, and take this to the bank. In 2004, Bush will win the Hispanic vote.
The only Hispanic to vote for shrubya in 2004 will be his WIFE and even she might have second thoughts. No, people will still remember how he basically STOLE the past 4 years and will be thrice as reluctant to actually give him his first legitimate go-around for another 4 years. Peace, Thomas :-)
Yeah, but with Shrub's first act, he demonstrated that it was a big menstrual tent ... :)
TMO: I'm keeping my eye on GWB. We Republicans have gotten a bad reputation of being intolerant and I rail at this. To be sure many of us fall into that category but I've been preaching that we have to shed that reputation and actions speak louder than words. Bush not only has to prove he his compassionate in words, but in deeds too. Where he sees injustice he must rail against it regardless of what particular extreme group he alienates. We Gopers have to take the lead in this. Intolerance is poison and must never be accepted, and the Pres can start by getting busy and mending fences with African-Americans who still distrust him. Again, action, action, action, not words, words words.
no matter what anyone says John rockead's biggest mistake was saying bad stuff about New York. his teams owner ted turner has told polish jokes about the pope and called religious people Jesus freaks yet he somehow gets away with it.
(Economists actually agree that race and gender discrimination prevents a society from operating at its production-possibilities curve. Deny anyone an opportunity to contribute on the basis of skin color or ethnicity, for example, and your enterprise becomes inherently inefficient compared to others in a free market.)
That is what I am saying. Affirmative action and other laws only hurt businesses that are trying to do the right thing. Truly raciest businesses will die due to their racism.
You are right, unless it is truly entrenched into society, as racism was (and to a large extent still is).
There is no reason why people should be exposed to such cruelty for something that has no economic basis.
>>> (Economists actually agree that race and gender discrimination prevents a society from operating at its production-possibilities curve...)
That is what I am saying. Affirmative action and other laws only hurt businesses that are trying to do the right thing. <<<
The fact that race and gender discrimination reduces the potential of an economy does not mean it does not exist. Nor is it apparent to those running the individual businesses that they could do better without race and gender discrimination. For this reason a completely laissez faire attitude toward discrimination in employment and service to the public cannot be allowed.
Tom
...the Supreme Court did make allowances for private groups such as the Boy Scouts and Bob Jones University
That is still abominable.
Bob Jones University: I would NOT even send my worst enemy's kids to that racist right-wing Fundamentalist Christian robot factory.
>>>If a private business wants to discriminate it
should be their right.
Dand: Nonsense. Like you stated, this is capitalist economy and nation - where merit and achievement are the deciding criteria for individuals. Irrelevent concerns, such as race, gender, and religion (or any other grouping of people), should have no place in true capitalism, where performance and individualsare all that matter. Of course, we do not have a true capitalist free market in the U.S., but this is the way a pure system would operate.
-cordially,
turnstiles
(Like you stated, this is capitalist economy and nation - where merit and achievement are the deciding criteria for individuals. )
and if you have any talent and come across one racist. you will find someplace else in no time flat.
>>>and if you have any talent and come across one racist. you will find someplace else in no time flat.
Dand: You know as well as I do that this is not always true. This country's economy is still primitive in this regard - eventually IMHO, free markets will wipe out most ideologies, including racism (very long-term effect).
-cordially,
turnstiles
>>> f you have any talent and come across one racist. you will find someplace else in no time flat <<<
That post makes you seem young and naive. I hope you never have reason to become as cynical as some of us who have been around longer. Maybe I can interest you in purchasing a certain bridge across the East River.
Tom
"People in this country need to stop looking back at Heritage and look forward into the future. We're all on the same team now and we need to work together to kick butt in today's global economy."
When former Governor Cuomo found out that Italian males had the highest high school dropout rates of any european group, he initiated a curriculum that speaks to the cultural aspects of this group. However, when a group of black educators proposed a curriculum for black students, he turned it down flatly.
When many whites say having a seperate curriculum for "minority" students is unnecessary, they are afraid of what a curriculum would do to uplift these students. Or, how it will increase the competition on the job. So, if you are reading this message, this is what it is.
The same thing happened during slavery, whites knowingly denied blacks from reading because they were afraid they would destroy the entire slave system. In other words, many whites understood that the better educated a person is, the less you can control them.
The same thing with vocational training. If you track someone in a vocational training program in oppose to college, that person's knowledge about things is reduce. Therefore, giving the oppressor free rain over that person's destiny.
N Broadway Line
"The same thing happened during slavery, whites knowingly denied blacks from reading because they were afraid they would destroy the entire slave system. In other words, many whites understood that the better educated a person is, the less you can control them."
Sorry guys. I mean many whites not all whites as referred in the above paragraph. And mainly rich whites in power positions.
Generalizations aren't good, so I'm glad I correct this error. Thanks for understanding.
N Broadway Line
"The same thing happened during slavery, whites knowingly denied blacks from reading because they were afraid they would destroy the entire slave system. In other words, many whites understood that the better educated a person is, the less you can control them."
Correct.
"The same thing with vocational training. If you track someone in a vocational training program in oppose to college, that person's knowledge about things is reduce. Therefore, giving the oppressor free rain over that person's destiny."
Again, here we need to be careful. For some, regardless of skin color, vocational school is a good choice. And there are some vocational schools with outstanding reputations. For others, college is the way to go. The key is to make sure we're maximizing everybody's chance to succeed in a career, whatever that career may be, and we don't always do a good job of that. That is certainly an injustice.
When many whites say having a seperate curriculum for "minority" students is unnecessary, they are afraid of what a curriculum would do to uplift these students. Or, how it will increase the competition on the job. So, if you are reading this message, this is what it is.
A separate curriculum is wrong. We need a curriculum with universal appeal, not one that further segregates people.
>>> When many whites say having a seperate curriculum for "minority" students is unnecessary, they are afraid of what a curriculum would do to uplift these students. <<<
I do not follow the thinking that says a separate curriculum for minority students will uplift them. I seem to remember in my distant past carrying signs and marching to protest separate curricula and facilities for minorities. At that time separate curricula certainly did not uplift minority students. What has changed?
Tom
It's interesting that you mention the Indian/Arab person. I can understand if you were making arguments about white people, but since when were there more Arabs or Indians in positions of power in this country than there are blacks? Maybe in your fantasy world.
Reverse Racism is no better than racism in the traditional direction.
I support your comments Thomas towards that guy. Keep speaking out!
Anyway, what that white bus driver said was wrong, but at least the bus company has a sizable share of black drivers. You can't say that about the Supermarkets around this town. When was the last time you saw a black male working in a Supermarket as a stock person or working as a cashier. If not at all, unless he's working as a security guard and is a caribbean born black.
What so many people don't understand, is that racism is promoted from the top and trickles down to the bottom. Just look at how your media stations display "news" (PROPAGANDA). Everyday viewers are subjected to negative images about black men being arrested or being charged with something. As a result, viewer get an impression that all black men are criminals.
Lets take a look at the school system and how it miseducates our "minority" students. Everday, children of color are faces with racism by untrain teachers who live outside their neighborhoods. And the curriculum is european base which doesn't reflect the children's heritage.
Ever go to the bank? Well... I can name several banks who doesn't hire blacks who are native to this country (ancestors 400 years). And look at the korean stores. They only hired Hispanics, excluding blacks/whites from employment.
And Look at who sells your newspapers, always an indian/arab person. Huh?
The United States is a very socially engineered society based on race. In a large part, it exist because so many people don't challenge it. They rather pretend that it doesn't exist.
Again. Racism is controlled from the top. If you don't change what happens on the top, you don't change it on the bottom (the bus driver).
N Broadway Line
8
This is absolutely nothing like yelling fire in a crowded theater.
Nobody's life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness was endangered by the driver's comments.
As for Rule #10, it's completely wrong. His comments did not affect the operation of the bus, and it doesn't take more of his rotten mind to say those things than it does to say anything else. And it is totally ridiculous if the MTA gets any flack for the comments of its employees, unless they affect the safe and timely operation of the vehicle.
Hey Qtraindash7:
You've clearly evolved and progressed in the short time you've been here at SubTalk, and I'm all others notice and appreciate this, as I do.
You owe it to yourself and the general riding public at large to recollect that idiot's OA badge number, and drop a friendly note to the OA about him. Normally I myself make it my policy not to usually get involved or inform on people, but when it comes to any kind of racism, classism, or sexism, I gladly make exception. If you cannot or will not, give the specifics of the trip to me and I know exactly who on Jay to pass it on to, who will then pass it on to whatever OA depot he is based out of, 95% chance in the form of a pink slip.
Sometimes justice must demand vengeance. Are you prepared to be it's sword? I clearly am.
Peace, Regards, ThomasTheAnti-RacistSubwayEngine >:-(
P.S.: I don't think I've ever met an asian immigrant that didn't work their ass off 12-20 hrs./day, outperform all their fellow classmates academically in spite of maybe learning english only mere months earlier, or who didn't know how to drive courteously and lawfully. And plus, the cuisine kung-fu kicks ass daily, and then esp. when its an "all you can eat" buffet(!)
>>> You owe it to yourself and the general riding public at large to recollect that idiot's OA badge number, and drop a friendly note to the OA about him <<<
I disagree that this is something to drop a dime for. Although I would not necessarily want that driver as a friend, I do not think his transgression rose to the level that should cost him his job or even a note in his personnel file. If he had made rude remarks to any Asian rider, or provided less service by passing an Asian at a bus stop without stopping, then he should definitely be reported, but if everyone with any prejudice toward any ethnic group in New York were to be fired, there wouldn't be enough people left working to keep the city going.
I would hate to see this become a country where one is afraid to state his politically incorrect views for fear of losing his job. That seems too much like the old Soviet Union.
Tom
[I would hate to see this become a country where one is afraid to state his politically incorrect views for fear of losing his job.]
I think there's a big difference between saying something on your own time and saying it when you're drive a bus.
Analogy: if I said "f---" to a customer, my employer would have every right to fire me (though in these litigious days he'd probably have to warn me first). But if I said it on my own time, when I was not acting as a representative of the company, it would be none of his business.
>>> Analogy: if I said "f---" to a customer, my employer would have every right to fire me <<<
That is not entirely analogous. Direct vulgarity to a customer is different from politically incorrect ideas being expressed. Also, I do not deny the right of the employer to fire the employee, but I do not feel the conduct described in the earlier post rises to the level where I would report that driver, just as I would not report a T/O for smoking in his cab even though I know that is also against the rules. I guess you would say that I realize even bigots need a certain amount of tolerance for society to function.
On the other hand, if the driver were swearing at other drivers on the road you could count on me using my ever present cell phone to report him immediately because that would indicate a state of mind which might make him an unsafe driver.
Tom
[On the other hand, if the driver were swearing at other drivers on the road you could count on me using my ever present cell phone to report him immediately because that would indicate a state of mind which might make him an unsafe driver.]
Aren't you making a personal value judgement here? Both swearing and racism are protected speech, but I don't think either one is appropriate behavior for an employee at work, or at least not in every context -- I doubt anyone would fire an employee for cussing if he stubbed his toe.
You have a point and I wouldn't want him to lose his job over this one incident. But he should be reprimanded and warned not to repeat this again on his job. If her persists, then out the door. He could have been mad and frustrated at something that had happened earlier that may or may nor have involved people he was talking about. I still think Q7 should have confronted him and tell him straight out that that kind of talk was bogus.
I did tell him I think asians are just as good as everyone else. That was good enough and a safe enough comment to avoid an argument.
Still----people like this have to be told in no uncertain terms that a rider on a public bus doesn't have to hear such bigoted crap. I hope if this ever happens again you will be more forthright and let whoever says such things a good piece of your mind.
Tom:
yeah, right. Let's just let this country digress to an all-out free for all where anyone can openly espouse any sentiment, no matter however racist, criminal, pedophile, incendiary, profane, ect. with absolutely no incentive to act civillized or consider other peoples feelings or beliefs. Then, in between Fist-fights and bickering we can all join hands and congratulate eachother on how much we ain't like the big bad bear.
We won't be like it because we will have become far worse.
Even in the old USSR, the safe and efficient running of the state and it's enterprises took priority over petty little opinions and prejudices.
-Peace, Thomas:-/
Tom:
yeah, right. Let's just let this country digress to an all-out free for all where anyone can openly espouse any sentiment, no matter however racist, criminal, pedophile, incendiary, profane, ect. with absolutely no incentive to act civillized or consider other peoples feelings or beliefs.
Yes. No matter how revolting a person's opinions are, NOTHING justifies the regulation of speech. What happens when one day, saying that the leader of the country is a dumbass becomes illegal? Or just to say that you're not satisfied with the work of the government.
Living with disgusting opinions by certain people is but a small price to pay for democracy.
Then, in between Fist-fights and bickering
Why would there be fist fights and bickering? You have to learn how to ignore those people and think of them as the scum that they are: not worth any of your time or even a slight thought.
we can all join hands and congratulate eachother on how much we ain't like the big bad bear.
Well, we don't have to hold any hands, but if we do persecute people for speech, we will be exactly like the big bad bear.
We won't be like it because we will have become far worse.
Even in the old USSR, the safe and efficient running of the state and it's enterprises took priority over petty little opinions and prejudices.
I can't believe you could even think of saying that. Freedom is the most important virtue, the only alternative to living free is drinking poison.
I would much rather live in a non-functional society where everyone starves and grows sick than to be deprived of basic human freedoms. Of course, in the Soviet Union, the safe and efficient running of the state and its enterprises still didn't come anywhere close to the free enterprise in the United States. That's why you will not find the Soviet Union on any globe or map made in the last ten years.
Of course, if you like the Soviet Union, move to Cuba or North Korea, two of the most backward and poverty-ridden countries in the world.
>>>Living with disgusting opinions by certain people is but a small price to pay for democracy.
Pork: I have reading through some of your recent posts concerning this bus driver, and freedom of speech is definitely a value to be respected. You argue firmly for what you believe. However, from what I have seen, these people's "disgusting" opinions (judging merely from your posts) really do not appear to be bothering you at all. None of your posts have expressed any real concern or anything more than passing grievances about them. And I do understand that postings on a web bulletin board are not necessarily a good representation of anyone.
-cordially,
turnstiles
>>> these people's "disgusting" opinions (judging merely from your posts) really do not appear to be bothering you at all. <<<
Pork's preceding post contained the following phrases:
" No matter how revolting a person's opinions are"
"Living with disgusting opinions by certain people"
"You have to learn how to ignore those people and think of them as the scum that they are"
Hmm, that hardly sounds like approval. What does he have to write to show they bother him?
Tom
Thank you. I think I conveyed my opinion. Since I wasn't there, it's not like I'm going to be in a fit of anger over this. And I probably wouldn't type coherently during one anyway.
>>>Thank you. I think I conveyed my opinion. Since I wasn't there, it's not like I'm going to be in a fit of anger over this. And I
probably wouldn't type coherently during one anyway.
Pork: Sorry, there was no conflict intended here! :) Looking forward to good posting from you later. I consider you a decent individual and knowledgable poster (as I have stated at other times). My only concern there was that there has been a noticeable difference in how you respond to age prejudice and to racism. (Yes, I know that I did not say that before, but that is why).
In any case, Pork, I wish you the best.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Well, there's a reason.
I am white, the traditional path of racism is from white to other races.
Unless that changes, racism will not be something that unduly affects me, it's just something that I intellectually disagree with and therefore it isn't such an emotional issue for me.
That doesn't make racism any better though, just because I'm not a victim.
Racism certainly does exist here- it's like a cancer, hard to ttotally get rid of. But I've witnessed many good interactions between people of different races in Bayside too. What you witnessed was horrible and inexcusable, but not typical of the community.
The driver should be reported. What a jerk...
>>> full of dismay that even in NYC with all these different people, racists still exist.
I guess you could say you were "shocked, SHOCKED to find that racism is going on in New York City."
Tom
>>> It is safe to assume that nearly all of the people who moved there did so with full knowledge that there would be no subway connection to Manhattan within any reasonable time frame. Yet they came nonetheless*. It seems to me, in short, that there isn't any overwhelming demand for subway service to Staten Island. <<<
This needs a fuzzy logic alert. Using this logic there could never be improved transportation either through rail or new roads. For instance, the people moved to Long Island knowing the L.I.R.R. service was poor, so there is no need to improve it. The other side of the argument is if no one moves to any given location then there is no need for rapid transit or new roads because there is no one to use them.
Tom
It puzzles me that NYC, basically an archipelago, has so little aquaceous transit. Istanbul, Turkey, is a city on two continents. And while the European side is generally regarded as the downtown, and the Anatolian side as suburban, the reality is both sides have jobs and both sides have residents. There are two road bridges (including the longest suspension bridge in Europe), with a third planned, but as of yet no rail connection. The gap is filled with sea-busses. These are ferries that cross at about 10 points, as well as some lines that zig-zag up the strait. It takes about 20 minutes to cross, and headways are about 15 minutes at rush hour. The pace of life is slower in Europe of course, but it's so nice to have teaboys bring you a glass of tea or hot chocolate on your leisurely morning commute. The boats are heated in winter, and open deck seats are plentiful in summer. And Istanbul is at the same latitude as Philadelphia, so climate shouldn't be a factor. Of course, a subway connection is needed, and financing is in place now for a planned tunnel, however Istanbul could not afford it until now. Income is $10,000 per person, in a city of 10 million. Rich by third-world standards, but third-world nonetheless. The sea bus schedules were drastically reduced with the openings of the road bridges, but thanks to traffic, the ferries are still much faster. Crossing one of the 8-lane bridges requires a 30 minute wait due to congestion. I think I read that the South St. - LaGuardia ferry is being curtailed. Is this true? How could it have lost its advantage to a subway and/or cab ride? I think there should be ferries up and down the East River, Hudson, and Upper NY Bay.
I think I read that the South St. - LaGuardia ferry is being curtailed. Is this true? How could it have lost its advantage to a subway and/or cab ride?
It's still much slower.
I received a mailing from the Metropolitan Waterfront Alliance with a map of a proposed New York Bay Ferry. Visit them at www.waterwire.net.
The local loop would stop at the World Financial Center, Battery Park, Wall Street (site of proposed Guggenheim Downtown), South Street Seaport, Fulton Landing (now in Brooklyn), Atlantic Avenue (Original LIRR Terminal! All gone now though), Governors Island, Luis Valentino Park (Red Hook), the Gowanus Canal, 39th Street Pier, Brooklyn Army Terminal, 69th Street Pier, Fort Wadsworth (SI, what happened to Fort Hamilton?), Alice Austen House, St. George Terminal, Snug Harbor, Constable Hook (Bayonne), Military Ocean Terminal, Caven Point Pier (Jersey City), Statue of Liberty, Ellis Island, Liberty State Park (back in JC), Exchange Place and finally back to the World Financial Center.
And Express Ferry would stop at Whitehall Terminal instead of Battery Park and skip the South Street Seaport and Gowanus Canal, Fort Wadsworth and Alice Austen House (then stopping at Homeport/Stapleton instead), then skip Snug Harbor, Constable Hook and Liberty and Ellis Islands.
The route I described as the express route is the proposed Mon-Fri Commuter Route, and the local route would be a Weekend and Holiday recreational route.
Great idea, won't happen in your lifetime.
Just pray we are serious about the Cross Harbor Tunnel.
[Great idea, won't happen in your lifetime.
Just pray we are serious about the Cross Harbor Tunnel.]
Are we? Last I heard they were talking about moving freight through a new NJT tunnel instead . . .
According to Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-Upper West Side/Brooklyn), we are still committed. I do speak with him and this is a pet project of his. I understand former Senator Daniel Patrick Moniyhan (D-NY) also pushed hard.
I will keep you posted.
[According to Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-Upper West Side/Brooklyn), we are still committed. I do speak with him and this is a pet project of his. I understand former Senator Daniel Patrick Moniyhan (D-NY) also pushed hard.
I will keep you posted.]
That's good to hear.
Moynihan will be missed . . .
Staten Island connection to Brooklyn via the Narrows.I didnt mean to scare anyone that lives in StatenIsland.I am sorry I am just a Subway fanatic I love trains.It was just a pure fantasy I know it is rediculous to think it would ever happen.In my fantasy i did not include lowlifes riding trains into StatenIsland to terrorize the middle class StatenIslanders.The last time I checked StatenIsland already has an exsisting low income community on the north shore,so i wonder how train service from Brooklyn would introduce anything new.If fear were allowed to dictate why not blow up the Verranzano bridge and set up military check points along the shore so the residents could be protected from the lowlife scum of the outer boroughs.
Capital idea. While we're at it, let's attach a giant engine and propeller to Staten Island so that they can motor away from the evil scourge of the other boroughs (*cough*Brooklyn*cough*). (=
Dan
To translate your thoughts to the west there was no public transit between Billings, MT and Laurel MT. When I lived in Laurel it was one big mess of drugs and burglaries. And I'm only going to touch race which is what is implied in this thread lightly: The 99.9% white youth of Laurel didn't need and didn't have any help from the Mexican and Native American communities in the city, Billings. They did a pretty good job of committing home and car burglaries themselves; for a town of 6000 we averaged about 20 per week THAT WERE REPORTED.Likewise see the post on Baltimore...was it Josh Hill's?
[...or build an extra deck on the Verrazano for trains, like the Manhattan Bridge.]
That would be a cool ride. However, the bridge was specially designed to NOT be able to handle trains - thanks, Robert Moses!!
How about sending the Second Avenue Line across the harbor, with stations at Ellis Island and Liberty Island (on the NYC side, of course). :-)
I am 27 years old and my favorite line ever was the CC local that ran into Rockaway park.As a child growing up in the 80's I remember my face plastered against the glass looking out into the beautiful Jamaica bay.Such a long and beautiful ride crossing the bay,and that was just the beginning.Once the CC local entered the Rockaways it divorced its longtime companion the A line.I remember the anticipation of seeing Playland the rollercoasters.I remember watching the waves crash on the beach from the train's window.My beautiful ride ends so quickly at Rockaway park.Only 4 stops between Holland and Rockaway Park,but I loved every second.Nowadays the CC has been replaced by the S, and Playland is now a faded memory.
Hola y cómo está usted?
That was a very shortlived reroute, normaly, the CC replaced the AA, rush hours only to allow the D train to use the express run while the CC took up the local stops on the Concourse. On the 70's and 80's, the CC went to Hudson Terminal in the absence of the AA which was a non-rush 8th avenue local.
Quando era que de novo? (When was that again?)
Selkirk thank you for sharing that info about my favorite line of all time.My memories go back to the early 80s.
It's a case of "obtener ella mientras usted lata" ... get it while you can ... I suppose by the 80's all of the pre-war R1/9 cars were off the CC ... I split the city in 1974 ... that was a line that ONLY used the old cars and no others. You'd never see a 32 or later marked with the CC ... surprised to see it leaving da Bronx or Madhatter ... heh.
The CC was a great run. In '81-82 they only had R-10's on the line, and I enjoyed those old thunderbirds. In the summer the ride out was a pleasure. The stretch over Jamaica Bay...very peaceful. I remember running light back out of Rockaway Park, we'd open the doors on Cross Bay Blvd. Wow, it was like a wind tunnel! Saved the car cleaners some work. Good memories...
Aha! Someone else besides me referred to the R-10s as Thunderbirds. You da man!:-)
My memories of the CC go back to the late 60s, when the R-1/9s still moaned and groaned on that route. I didn't ride it often back then, but it does have the distinction of being the last R-1/9 train I ever took, in July of 1971.
Yes, the CC always seemed to have the oldest equipment, given its rush hour-only status.
My first ride on the "CC", counter-rush hour on the morning of April 11, 1969, from 59th Street to Bedford Park Boulevard found, according to my green pad (and grey book) the last of the sputtering R-1 cars, with a handful of R-4 (total 5 consists spotted that run).
IIRC these were very slow, they moved tentatively and seemed on the verge of falling apart. Some had lights out, seats missing, broken windows etc. They were in bad shape. The "D" on the other hand, had all R32 cars - the R42s did not arrive on the "D" until mid-July '69.
Moon Day! Ice cold R42 #4654! Frost, fog and rime on the windows, heavenly after a long wait on the 161st Street platform after the Yankee game. They must have had it up the way as a put-in and had the A/C running full tilt. It stayed cold all the way down the line, even with a full load of Yankee fans aboard.
wayne
My first CC ride IIRC was on September 5, 1967 from 59th to 42nd. The clincher was there was an A train sitting there on the express track as we reached the platform, doors open, just waiting for us to board. Of course, the subway was still new to me then, and I didn't know those cars with the nifty teal-and-white racing stripe paint scheme were the R-10s I would grow to love in a very short time. Nor did I know they were assigned exclusively to the A. Frankly, I didn't know where the side signs were at the time, either, so we couldn't tell it was an A. As the last car went by us, I saw the end route sign and said out loud, "What luck. THAT was an A train!" The CC pulled in a few minutes later. It was either on that very train, or the D train we had just gotten off of, that I stood at the railfan window for the very first time. I'm inclined to say it was the D train. The first car was an R-1 or R-4, since its storm door had one large pane of glass. For some reason, I recall the D being signed as a CC, but I think I'm just getting my details scrambled.
My next ride on a CC was on June 27, 1968. We going uptown from 42nd St., but wound up on the DOWNTOWN platform. This was before the entire mezzanine at 42nd St. was incorporated into the paid fare zone. So off we went towards the northern end of the station and the underpass - the northern end of the lower level. I'm telling you, it spooked me. It felt as if I'd stepped into a twilight zone. Although Aqueduct Specials were using the lower level at the time, it looked ghostly and deserted. Anyway, as we reached the uptown platform, a CC train pulled in, as well as an E train on the express track. My mother asked me which train we needed to take, and I replied that the E was going to 7th Ave. while the CC was headed for 50th and 59th. That's where we were going, so we boarded the last car of the CC. It felt strange to be at the storm door on the end of the train. Both trains left the station at the same time, and I watched as the E started out alongside our train, then descended to the lower level at 50th St.
The last of the R-1/9 class (in this case, they were R-6 and R-7 cars), pottered out on the "CC" and in Eastern Division. In 1977 I took a ride out to Rockaway and saw a "CC" of R32 cars. Today, these cars make up the bulk of the "C" service (along with their R32GE and R38 brethren). The shuttle is an "S" and it's made up of stray R44s.
I remember the Shuttle when it was marked "H" and ran post-GOH Pullman Green R10s - THAT was a classic!
wayne
Shows ya how much things have changed since the 70's. I split the city in '76 and back then the R1/9's were still very much alive and the Rockaway "shuttle" was HH (single letters still meant express and double letters still meant local back then) ... never saw the R10's repainted, to the day I left they were still teal and white though some nimrod got the idea to paint some of them in that stupid silver with navy blue bars to look more like the IRT ... that was a DUMB paint scheme. The greens must have looked nice from what I saw in photos here.
The R-10s were repainted in silver and blue along with the rest of the SMEE LAHT fleet begining in 1970. Only the WF R-36s were bypassed and kept their original colors until the second round of repainting around 1979-80. AFAIK only a handful of R-7/9s on the Eastern Division got the silver and blue treatment. I never saw one with that scheme in revenue service. Poor old 1575, the R-10 imposter and the butt of jokes among its sister prewar units, kept its original paint scheme until the end.
Speaking of 1575, there is a photo of it in Gotham Turnstiles at either 4th Ave. or Smith-9th in the middle of a D train, and it's in the same grimy olive green as the rest of the consist. Was it ever painted olive drab, or did it just get so filthy that its true colors were covered over? Did either you or Big Ed ever get to run 1575?
Never did the R10's and though 1575 was really an R7 or R9 (forget which) it looked like an R10 to me. I do recall seeing it and its door windows made it stand out as "not like the other ones" but never saw it in any of the consists I ran (and I was working back in the days of musical consists) ... they didn't mix R1/9's very often with anything else though it was pretty much "what Barbie wears is up to you" with the rest of the fleet at the time.
I also remember another oddball car that had R11 doors (two small round windows in each leaf) and side windows more like the original redbirds (two-leaf cottage style windows as opposed to the big rounded ones typical of R10's) but it was a genuine R10 as far as I know. Might have been a prototype ... but didn't see any oddballs mixed in what I ran.
The C ran to Rockaway Park until about a decade ago (or less?).
October 1992 to be exact. The C/CC replaced the E in Brooklyn and Rockaway in 1976.
And it had the distinction of being the first (and, I believe, only) train to travel in all 4 subway boroughs.
It must've been a really painfully slow ride though from Bedford Park Blvd. local all the way to Rockaway Park. The scenic drive along the Broad Channel should somewhat compensated for it.
It was, a bit, but I had a good pick the one year (1981) I was on it. I started at Bedford, made 1 run to Rock Park, and 3 shuttle runs after that. It didn't seem too long to me...and yes, the scenery out in the Rockaways was very nice.
Yep, it sure did.
remember when they were doing repairs at WTC on the E? There was no C and the E ran in brooklyn, It used to be like that always?
Not quite. The CC terminated at Chambers WTC (Hudson Terminal before 1974), and the E went to Brooklyn, but operated express between Canal St. and 42nd. St., so no annoying crossover was needed at Canat St.
Hola y cómo está usted?
And no se apoye contra la puerta to you too. (It's the only sentence in that language I know.)
Heh. Guess I've been away too long - that replacement for the HH must have come after 1976 ... all the time I knew, the CC ran from Bedford Park Blvd to Hudson Terminal, part time only. Otherwise the D ran local on the Concourse and the AA took up the run on 8th Ave/St Nick.
I did enjoy the CC too. And I used to refer to it as the "CC Local" also. My fondest memories of it was when the R-1/9 were on the CC and it operated from Bedford Pk Blvd to Hudson Terminal. I usually did not ride them very far because I'd rarely pass up the the Concourse express or the CPW/8th Ave express runs. The CC got interesting over the years as many different car classes were used on the line. The one that surprised me the most was once around 1980 the TA played musical trains on the IND/BMT and the next morning I was waiting for my D express at Tremont Ave - hoping for a train of R-46 and the R-46 showed, but it was on the CC line. I was totally shocked. Then a minute later the D arrived and it was a train of R-44 cars.
Wayne
That was during the R-46 truck cracking crisis, when the R-46s were assigned to rush hour routes in an attempt to reduce total mileage operated. The R-10s wound up on the E and F, where they got one last chance to strut their stuff on the Queens express runs. Too bad they weren't sent back to the A.:-(
They is so much about the CC line that wasn't spoke of. But the most important thing I can say about the CC was that it ranned in every borough except Staten Island. And probably had the longest route and most stops in the entire subway system. However, the E train which use to have a terminus at 179th Street and Far Rockaway seem like a close candidate.
The A was second only at nights, the F was third (nights only), and the D was fourth. The exception would be the #2 which use to have a terminus at New Lots Avenue. It just might have been in fourth place since it seems to travel to every crook and cranny in the city. So it would be safe to put the D at 5th place.
Oops! I can't forget my neighbor, the R, which use to have a terminus at 179th St. Jamaica. Let's make that 6 place.
Today, the A has the longest route of all the lines: 207th Street (M) and Far Rockaway (Q). It also goes the furthest west (sorry #1 IRT, YOU LOOSE THIS ONE BECAUSE AFTER 168, THE A goes west from that point) and east of any line. And U can't forget about the F because the A is about a 10 minute walk to the Long Island border.
N Broadway Line
>>> [The A] also goes the furthest west (sorry #1 IRT, YOU LOOSE THIS ONE BECAUSE AFTER 168, THE A goes west from that point) <<<
It looks like you better get out your boy scout compass and map reading course. The Hudson River north of 34th Street and the Avenues in Manhattan do not run true North-South, but about 40 degrees off of true north. Therefore the IRT 7th Avenue line at from 79th to 110th Street is west of the IND 8th Avenue line at 190th Street. The western most line in the system is at South Ferry, with the southern end of the 4th Avenue line in Brooklyn a close second.
Tom
hmmmmmm. From a subway map point of view, the A does look like it's the most westerly line in the system. But since the subway maps aren't that accurate, maybe your right.
N Bwy
Actually, the southernmost stop on the R is the westernmost point in the subway system. Counterintuitive but true -- look at a good map.
Why not? such a beautiful length of NewYorkCity coastline unknown to most.The beautiful Atlantic coastline should be enjoyed by all.Extend the S-train from Rockaway park down to Riis park or Breezy point,or extend the number 2 train from Flatbush through the Flatlands across the bridge to Riis park.The Rockaways should be develpoed into a resort area.NewYork city will be known not only for its famous buildings and statues,but for its beautiful beaches in the summer.
Why not? such a beautiful length of NewYorkCity coastline unknown to most.The beautiful Atlantic coastline should be enjoyed by all.Extend the S-train from Rockaway park down to Riis park or Breezy point,or extend the number 2 train from Flatbush through the Flatlands across the bridge to Riis park.The Rockaways should be develpoed into a resort area.NewYork city will be known not only for its famous buildings and statues,but for its beautiful beaches in the summer.
Subway service to Riis park I could see, but isn't Breezy Point some sort of private, residents-and-guests-only development?
[Subway service to Riis Park I could see, but isn't Breezy Point some sort of residents-and-guests-only development?]
Yes, it is. AND the residents are NIMBYs who don't even want public buses anywhere near the gate, for fear that the "wrong crowd" might be able to reach them.
Subway service to Riis park I could see, but isn't Breezy Point some sort of private, residents-and-guests-only development?
The main road, Rockaway Point Boulevard is open to all traffic, and the Rockaway Point Surf Club is located at the end (it's a private club, but guests can buy a day pass and do not need to come with a member). If you want to access a side street, there's a booth at the entry from Fort Tilden, the guard on duty will call the person who you want to visit, and if they approve, you get a token to put in the gate for the side streets. Residents get cards to put in the gate. There is also a private beach which is accessible only by the side streets.
It also has numbered avenues which conflict with numbered avenues in Astoria, the same Beach Number Street as the rest of the Rockaways (B201-B222) and a set of alphabetical walks.
The closest bus to Breezy Point is the Q22 and Q35 in Roxbury, a small community (I know squat about it) in the northeast corner of Fort Tilden, just west of the Marine Parkway Bridge (the Q35 crosses it).
I also forgot to mention:
While the Q22 goes to Roxbury, the Q22A goes to Baywater, Little Newark, Crackton, Airport Refueling Way, Rural Route 9 and Industrial Access Road.
Why don't we start by doing something with the areas that have subway service? Most of the areas the A passes towards Far Rockaway are absolutely desolate.
Prior to 1970, they weren't, at least in the summer. The bungalows were knocked down in that time, leaving a wasteland. Thus, except for Beach 25 and Far Rock, there aren't many people on that branch.
There was a major discussion last week about various Rockaway to Manhattan proposals, with suggestions concerning Riis Park.
When I lived in NY, Ft. Tilden was at the tip of the peninsula and had a "checkpoint Charlie" at its entrance. It wouldn't surprise me if the Breezy Point community still used it.
Unless you are thinking of an elevated structure, I can't see where you would put the ROW past Rockaway Park.
You are right Italiano.I have thought about this,the tracks would have to be elevated.Its just a fantasy it could never happen ,there are storefronts directly in the path of the S on beach 116th street.I love the elevated structures of the Rockaway lines the cement design is so different from elevated structures of the other boroughs.I dont know why the Rockaways were made different.Maybe if they were made of your usual steel beams they would probably rust fast from the salty ocean breezes of the Atlantic.I dont know just my theory.Someone here mentioned Breezypoint being a private community,oh well i guess we would have to stop at Riis park
The Rockaway’s elevated subway infrastructure is different from the "typical" elevated subway infrastructure because the Rockaway subway line was once part of the abandoned Long Island Railroad Rockaway Beach branch.
Tom Scannello
www.OldNYC.com
[Extend the S train from Rockaway Park down to Riis Park or Breezy Point...]
First: Who's going to pay for the houses that would have to be ripped down?
Second: Breezy Point doesn't even want buses (except their own private deal), so count out the train.
-----
[...or extend the Number 2 train from Flatbush...across the bridge to Riis Park.]
I can see sending the train to Kings Plaza, but how many people are really going to ride to Riis Park? (Quite a few years ago, there were summer-weekend-only extensions on the B9 and B46. They didn't last long.)
-----
[The Rockaways should be developed into a resort area.]
Actually, the Rockaway peninsula once was a resort area, well-populated during the summer and almost empty the rest of the year; it later evolved into a year-round community.
I do not agree that the Rockaways went downhill after the trains were put in.That is so rediculous.The Rockaways went downhill when they put HOUSING PROJECTS there.The welfare system rewards people for being ignorrant,dependent and lazy.There are many neighborhoods in NewYork that have trains and nice neighborhoods co-existing.ALL 5 BOROUGHS HAVE HOUSING PROJECTS AND LOW INCOME AREAS INCLUDING STATEN ISLAND.I do not believe for a minute that a train connection from StatenIsland to Brooklyn will bring problems to the island.
The buzz among the Rockaway summer people was that the city wanted to put a lot of projects on the peninsula, so in case of a riot they would open up the subway bridge and the two auto bridges, isolating the area. Between riots, student protests and nuclear war, there was a lot of paranoia back then.
Now the Veterans Memorial Bridge is a fixed span crossing.
I haven't been over those bridges in a quarter century. I guess they've both been renamed. Thanks for the info.
The buzz among the Rockaway summer people was that the city wanted to put a lot of projects on the peninsula, so in case of a riot they would open up the subway bridge and the two auto bridges, isolating the area. Between riots, student protests and nuclear war, there was a lot of paranoia back then.
Extend The Q35 Bus 2 Blocks To Beach 116 St/Rockaway Park!
This Bus Runs Every 10 To 20 Minutes Every Day To
Flatbush Avenue/Nostrand Avenue Brooklyn 2/5 Trains.
Hello all:
On Friday, April 20, I have a scheduled layover in CLE from 5:10pm to 7:50pm. During that time, I would like to ride into the city and take a brief tour around. Can anyone suggest the best way to do this (I assume Red line to Tower City) and what is worth seeing (Public Square?) in the 30-45 mins I'm expecting to actually be downtown. Also, what is the fare structure? In order to not use the message board, you can email me at james_sinton@hotmail.com if you like. Thank you very much.
James
I was once layed over at Cleveland en route from ORD to PHL overnight, thanks to snow in Chicago and sitting on the runway for 3 hours. When I finally got to Cleveland, the last outgoing flight was to BWI, which I wanted to take, but my friend (from Wilmington) had left his car at PHL, so we took the hotel rooms for the night, even though I missed a day of work. Unfortunately, the Cleveland subway had already stopped running for the night, so I could only investigate the station, which looked nice, but not particularly unusual.
The three PCC cars performed without a flaw for the "Ali" filming Friday, March 16. This included at least six passes through the State Street subway. I remarked how bright the outside lights were and the answer I received was.."No, the movie people didn't change the bulbs, its probably because the car batteries were full strength."
Some have noted an interest in a charter trip. If and when, and nothing is written down on paper now...if and when, the notice time might be short. The cost might be around $50, especially because of insurance. And, there are only three cars. So consider this only an announcement to get ready...be on your Ps and Qs, whatever that means.
David Harrison
How long are the 6000s slated to remain on CTA property? Will they be returned to IRM anytime soon? Just curious.
Return date unknown.
David Harrison
Were those three cars the IRM's entire collection of PCC based L cars?
I don't have an IRM roster handy. You might check their website. They probably have 5-6 in shape to run this coming season besides the 3 "Ali" cars. The cars were chosen because they fit the time frame of the movie. 6655/56 had to have their IRM trolley poles removed. Car 22 was the latest acquisition. Skokie Shops certainly put them in top notch running condition.
David Harrison
It's good to hear that the people in the Skokie shops did a good job on them. If the IRM do have several more operable PCC elevated cars, would there be any possibility, however remote, of the three "Ali" cars that have been restored by the CTA to their operating parameters remaining in Chicago on long term loan for fan trip use? The MBTA in Boston have a somewhat similar arrangement with the Seashore museum where the MBTA has leased a Type 5 streetcar for use on fan trips and special occasions on the green line (although the Type 5 in question and the MBTA's green line PCC and some miscellaneous work equipment are kept on a disconnected piece of track in the green line Boylston station and don't go out on fan trips...)
-Robert King
If the mayor of Chicago, Richard M. Daley told the CTA he thought it would be a good idea to keep the "Ali" cars in the city for a while, it might happen. Otherwise don't old your breath.
David Harrison
IRM has several flavors of 6000s including a few early ones built from all-new components (they have straight vertical side doors) as well as some built from parts cannibalized from Green Hornets, which the Ali cars were.
StatenIsland was a great to live,but the commute i remember is anything but great.Picture it the blizzards of 93 cold winds whipping your face at the bus stop,we havent even gotten to the ferry yet.After enjoying a half hour of 25 degree weather with windchill factor.The bus arrives greeting me with a splash of brown slush from the curbside.Once you get into the sardine can its another 20 minute wait until you finnally arrive at the ferry.At the ferry the freezing baywinds are sure not to forget you.The terminal smells like a huge public bathroom.With homeless people everywhere in every nook and cranny.I cant eat my bagel and creamcheese without a parade of de-formed pigeons chasing me with one leg.O.k the ferry arrives iam behind a thousand other people.The great big doors open people rush through and push like cattle to escape.I am the last of the thousand people,and doors shut in my face.I must now wait another 20 minutes to board the next boat.Once on the ferry the ride is pleasent the scenery is magnifficant eventhough the ride is long to Manhattan.In Manhattan the terminal is even more disgusting than the StatenIsland terminal.The smell is unbelievable i rush to the doors to avoid vomitting.Once outside in the 25 degree windwhipping weather i am relieved to breath fresh air ignorring my stiff red face.Now its time to walk down the ramp completely covered with ice people are sliding and falling all the way to the 1 and 9 station at the bottom of the ramp.I wish the 1 and 9 took me to work on 48th and lexington,no such luck time to walk through the cold streets of Manhattan to get to the right train.Once i get to Bowling green i must board on a packed train that originated in Brooklyn.When i finally finnish the oddesey.I arrive at work soaking wet numb and red,wandering if people from the Bronx or Queens were happier than me.Anyone who travels from StatenIsland knows i am not exaggerating.
That's why the express buses have proven so popular, they beat the ferry in terms of comfort. The ferry commute is o.k. only if you live near an SIR station and work in lower Manhattan. The new MCI coach buses are the best express bus equipment the MTA has ever purchased, despite the complaints coming out of Bay Ridge.
I've been to S.I. and let me tell you that just traveling there from Manhattan is long and somewhat difficult.
In fact, many parts of Staten Island seem further away from NYC than parts of Westchester and NJ.
S.I. needs that rail access, it would relieve the congestion on the crossings. The SIRT is more like a rural railroad, which is nice for touring, but not for commuting (slow and infrequenct compared to subway).
I agree both terminals for the ferry are disgusting.
The best bet for Staten Islanders right now is the express bus service. It's a one seat ride to Manhattan, and the $3 is worth it.
But a S.I. rail link to NYC is the only answer. How hard is it to build a tunnel from Staten Island to NYC??
They could run it to WTC. They've built long under-water tubes in other countries, so why not here?
A great idea, 'cept I doubt they'd be willing to spend the $$$$$, easily in the hundred of millions of dollars for a rail tunnel that would carry proportionately far fewer passengers then similar-costing existing tunnels. I mean, the east river isn't even as far across as the Hudson Bay from S.I. to Manhattan is, and yet even by conservative estimates, the 63rd st connector tunnel took decades to build and cost several hundreds of millions of dollars. It doesn't seem like the MTA will shell out similar bucks for this, and not because it isn't a good idea or a worthy project!
Hey, howzabout somehow connecting SIR to a newly-built bi-directional railroad on the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, to a transfer point to BMT lines in Brooklyn?!
Peace and GB, etc., etc., Thomas :-/
[But a S.I. rail link to NYC is the only answer. How hard is it to build a tunnel from Staten Island to NYC??
They could run it to WTC. They've built long under-water tubes in other countries, so why not here?]
As Thomas said, it would be impractically expensive. But modern ferries do 55 knots. There's no reason Staten Island shouldn't have modern, high speed ferry service to both a new terminal at South Ferry and Midtown. In fact, there was a private service for a while, but what with the City giving away ferry service it couldn't compete.
Ah, the joy of subsidies! Our transportation network would be incomparably better if people actually paid the actual cost of services, because the service would go where the demand is.
A high speed ferry is more practical, that's for sure. A rail tunnel is just pie in the sky.
>>> A high speed ferry is more practical <<<
How high speed is practical in New York Harbor. I have ridden on hydrofoils on Manila Bay and from Hong Kong to Macao, which were fast (about 40-50 knots) but had relatively low capacity, and in both cases were longer journeys. Here in California we have fairly large capacity catamarans between the mainland and Catalina Island which travel at about 30 knots. But they do not carry vehicles and are no where near as large as the Staten Island Ferries I remember.
Tom
[How high speed is practical in New York Harbor. I have ridden on hydrofoils on Manila Bay and from Hong Kong to Macao, which were fast (about 40-50 knots) but had relatively low capacity, and in both cases were longer journeys. Here in California we have fairly large capacity catamarans between the mainland and Catalina Island which travel at about 30 knots. But they do not carry vehicles and are no where near as large as the Staten Island Ferries I remember.]
I'm sure somebody can answer this better than I can but there are already various high speed ferry services. There was high speed ferry service from Staten Island to Midtown at one point, but as I understand it it went out of business after they eliminated the fare on the Staten Island Ferry to nothing.
Anyway, there's no reason you can't have high capacity high speed ferries, or high speed ferries that carry cars, as on the English Channel. But you lose frequency that way, so it seems to me they should leave the cars on the big lumbering beasties -- who wants to encourage more people to commute in cars, anyway? -- and concentrate on relatively small vehicles with frequent service -- standard subway headways, 2-3 minutes in rush hour and 20 minutes max late at night would be a good standard -- making stops along the major business districts. Modern high speed ferries do something like 55 knots. And if they synchronized the ferry service with the crosstown buses and SIRT so that the ferry leaves after the bus or train arrives and vice-versa, and built enclosed ferry terminals so people didn't get snowed on while making those transfers, I think people from SI (and other areas) could enjoy enviable service. If you converted SIRT to an electric busway you could even have roll on-roll off service, albeit it would be a bit kludgy.
SIR is SLOW??
15 minutes from St. George to Great Kills?? That is half (almost) the length of the Island. You can't go VZ Bridge to Great Kills at 5pm on a weekday in 15 minutes, let alone from St. George.
The problem isn't the railroad, it is the 20 minute boat ride. Even during rush with a 5 boat headway (15 minutes) that they run when a boat isn't in drydock is too long if you have to make another connection in Manhattan. For wall street/walking distance from the Ferry an hour commute is a dream IMHO.
Who will say that the SIR is slow?
R-44 #305
[Who will say that the SIR is slow?]
Qtrain said that. For some reason Lou responded to my post instead of his . . .
Well the expresses are quick. The locals crawl though.
I agree that the major problem is that 20 minute boat ride.
I'd rather them charge $1.50 fare (all Metrocard accepted ) and have a high speed boat.
The reason they stopped charging is because it would cost more to retrofit MC turnstiles, and that even if they raised the non-MC fare, not many people would pay for the boat anyway because they would have transfers.
Peel is a uncommon station name is it?
How so? I assume you are talking about Montréal. I believe it is the name of a street there.
Strange to name a street after a thing.
Its in Montreal and probably has some French connection.
"Its in Montreal and probably has some French connection."
Nope, it's most likely named after an English person (not a peel, as someone else speculated). Specifically, Sir Robert Peel, a prime minister in the early 1800s. More famous for being the founder of the London Metropolitan Police, hence one of the the nicknames for a constable being "peeler".
thanks for the history lesson
And Bobby, because of his first name.
>>>And Bobby, because of his first name.
Prok: Yes, London police are often called bobbies. Pork, you do have a good bank of historical trivia!
-cordially,
turnstiles
I think most will say R11 or R16, althought some might say R27, because they introduced route letters and longitudinal seats to the BMT, and they killed lots of Standards.
Since the R16 was the first mass-produced post-war car run on the BMT, strange they didn't put it right on the Brighton Express, but instead chose the low-priority Eastern Division.
I don't count the R11 more than an experiment so don't even think about them. I'd think I'd call the R16 the worst. I used to hate the R38...when new they had lousy braking and were terribly noisy but it seems those problems were overcome. I felt that the R38 and the by-then-deteriorated R10's were ear splitters and I saw a chart that confirmed it. But as a mass produced worst group of cars I think the R16 gets that award.
Hey! I wasn't all that bad ya know! (I have to defend my car namesake, don't I?) Besides, there were only 10 of me.
Actually in my mind, the R11 was a bit before it's time. Think of the novelty of Stainless Steel construction in the conservative Board of Transportaion era. Also, in it's polio conscious times, the addition of the Ultra Violet germ killing lamps certainly has (thankfully!) never been duplicated. Let's not forget disc brakes while we are at it!
The R11 is a mysterious much misunderstood breed, much like it's modern day cousin the R-110.
amen , those R 110 are awesome, MORE get MORE!!!!!!
Think of the novelty of Stainless Steel construction in the conservative Board of Transportaion era.
Well, sort of. The "Little Zephyr" was stainless steel, too.
--Mark
Since the R16 was the first mass-produced post-war car run on the BMT, strange they didn't put it right on the Brighton Express, but instead chose the low-priority Eastern Division.
The TA has periodically assigned new equipment to runs where they wanted to attract ridership to relieve crowding on more popular runs.
So R-types were assigned to the Pelham Locals while Lo-Vs still ran on the White Plains Road and Jerome Expresses. Likewise, The R27s went first to the Brighton and 4th Avenue Locals.
In the case of the R-16s, the TA put them on the 15-Jamaica, hoping to attract traffic from the E and F.
One other reason the R-16s were first assigned to the BMT was to alleviate the chronic steel car shortage on that division. From a reliability standpoint, these cars would have to be at the bottom of the barrel.
I think they did all right until the late 60's. I lived on the Jamaica line and never had a breakdown. Although, even then they went to the Canarsie line whenever it snowed so their doors wouldn't become inoperative.
During snow storms in the '60s, R16s, 27s and 30s were frequently pulled off the outdoor lines. That's one of the reasons I used to grab my coat and head out whenever the first snowflake fell. It's the only time I ever got to rider ABs on the Jamaica Line (not counting Broadway Shortr Line).
Yep, the BMT standards would be sent out to the Myrtle Ave. and Jamaica lines as soon as it would start snowing. Nothing short of a major blizzard could stop them.
The R27/30 never saw the Eastern Division (except for a few TT deadheads to East New York) until November 67 when they replaced the R16, which went to the RJ and RR. The QJ service from then on never got Standards, even when it snowed.
Joe, I don't know if your response means I was saying R27/30s were used on the Eastern Division pre-Christie--I wasn't.
I meant that the snowstorms were a chance to ride Standards on the Jamaica instead of the R16s, but also on the Brighton Local (QT/QB) and, as R-types became more widespread, other lines as well, especially weekend runs on a number of routes.
At least during the early days of the R27s, the TA made a big effort to use them during off-peak hours, especially on runs where Standards and Triplexes were usually used, like the Sea Beach. Many times I recall riding a Standard into 95th Street on the RR at the end of the evening rush, to have it taken out of service in favor of an R27 on the opposite track.
What exactly did their side route signs have for the 15? I rode on a 15 only once and can vaguely remember something like "15-Jamaica local".
15|JAMAICA LOCAL or JAMAICA EXPRESS. I don't remember what they said for 10, 14, 16. They often ran on the 14, seldom on the 10 and 16.
What I never understood is why the south side sign got white cardstock signs pasted on them in 1968 reading "95th STREET" when 95th Street Frt Hmltn was on their roll signs as it was. Maybe it was to encourage the discipline to get them off the QJ.
This could have been alleviated by transferring some pre-war R types to the BMT. Usually, new cars go to high profile lines. Besides the R16, can anyone remember a car type which began running on the Eastern Division brand new? I'd think the the R16 would've logically been assigned to the D line, to showcase the IND's new direct connection to Coney Island via the Culver line.
Maybe they knew that early that these cars would be mechanical nightmares.
All I can think of is the Multi's back in the 30's, but the reason was being lightweight. If I'm not mistaken they did some time on the old Fulton St el. That's the best I can offer.
Had the 2nd Avenue subway got built in the 1950's, might the R16 order have been for 700 or so cars instead ?
Good lord, 700 of those lemons? Thank god the order was a rather small 200.
>>Had the 2nd Avenue subway got built in the 1950's, might the R16 order have been for 700 or so cars instead ? <<
No. The R-11 was a protptype for the 2nd. av fleet. Had the 2nd. av line been built, the R-11's production version would've been running there. 700 R-16's? That would've been a sight to see....
But in 1954, the R16 was as such, 2nd Ave subway or not, not for R11 clones, which tells me a 2nd Ave Subway order would have been R16's as they were...apparantly the TA rejected stainless steel, other experimental features, Budd would have lost the bid.
Don't think they would've purchased so many. Only the R32 contract was for something close to that size (600). Might've seen more cars bought between 1955 and 1959, when the R30 was first purchased.
Oops, I meant R27.
It's probably a tie with the R16 and R44. Both types introduced new technology and have been mechanical lemons since they were first purchased.
Personally, I love/loved both types, and I despise some of the more popular types (R38, R26/28/29) ...
Mechanically, the R16 was the worst. I could never understand it when the IRT clone R17 was fine, and all they had to do was update the R10. It can't be the manufacturer. ACF generally built as good if not a better car than St Louis.
I can't think of anything new on the R-16s except for PA systems. The R-15s introduced door controls in the cabs and porthole windows on the storm doors while the R-11s brought about electric door engines.
I thought it was the R16 which first introduced electrically controlled doors, as opposed to pneumatic.
>>I think most will say R11 or R16, althought some might say R27,...<
For the last time:
R-11's were prototypes. They weren't meant to be used heavily, or as a large fleet. Their performance was lacking, true. But are today's R-110a/b units in much better shape? Nah, their MDBF was poor before, and their ststus right now is, well, sad. So, stop cracking on the R-11 because it's a prototype? OK?
A few years ago I heard serious talk of reintroducing streetcars to 42nd street. I distinctly recall hearing that the survey work had been completed and that it was just a matter of getting the funding and starting construction. Also, has the streetcar started running in New Orleans yet? In that case I do know that construction had started and that they were due to be up and running by now.
Eric D. Smith
AFAIK, 42nd Street light rail is as dead as dead can be.
If you are speaking of New Orleans as in Canal, try 2003 or so. The first sample car 2001 is undergoing testing. Lots more to be done.
What's that funny e-mail address you use? eds65_21218? Looks like your initials, an age and a Baltimore Zip code? No com, net or org suffix. How do we e-mail you?
Eric, the 42nd Street trolley is perhaps an even better example than the 2nd Avenue Subway of why public works projects never seem to get done in NYC any more.
Having watched the city scene for a long time, I actually convinced myself that the 42nd Street line was going to happen. Why? Because there was so much enthusiasm for it that the Mayor and the City Council were actually fighting about which one would have the authority to approve even more lines. When you get that kind of territorial facedown its usually good news.
However, some people on 42nd Street didn't like having half the street closed. Some people on 43rd Street didn't want traffic diverted from 42nd Street. And so on. And so on.
So the same thing happened to the 42nd Street streetcar that happens to most projects that have any organized opposition. Nothing.
I can't believe that this crap had so much support on the political level.
The 42nd Street Trolley would just have been a costly boondoggle. THANK GOODNESS it didn't happen.
The real problem with light rail or any other form of street traction is the traffic. Most of which curiously on 42nd seemed primarily to be busses and cruising cabs. New York City is one of the very few cities that has a large possible route in a "vertical canyon" (the failing of many monorails is that you need to get to the street level where the buildings are) ... much like the abandoned West Side freight line, a monorail scheme that ran above the sidewalk with station entrances into the side of buildings, running a closed loop *could* work in Manhattan.
There would be enough users available to make THAT work as it would remove vehicles from the surface (busses and some cabs) to make the street flow workable. But trolleys and light rail would only seem to make things worse. If money is to be spent on transit there, this is probably the most practical pie in the sky to be dishing out with a cup of coffee ...
Eric,
I was just in New Orleans, and I saw the Canal Street prototype streetcar running on Canal, and sitting in the carbarn, live and in person. The service is not scheduled to begin till 2003.
If you want, you can go to my website to see a write-up of my ride on the St. Charles line. I have some photographs of the streetcars from earlier this month. There's also a link there to the RTA's website, which has information about the Canal Street Line and the future revival of the Desire Streetcar.
I think it would be stupid to have a light rail line on 42 St. That street already is well served by 2 subway lines. Why not spend the money on crosstown streets that do not have any transit?
[Why not spend the money on crosstown streets that do not have any transit?]
Good point. 34th Street for one is a disaster . . .
[Good point. 34th Street for one is a disaster . . . ]
And it wouldn't be as much, if they had more transit, M104 to 34th Street!
Arti, who has waited 45 minutes for anything heading West on weekday afternoon.
[And it wouldn't be as much, if they had more transit, M104 to 34th Street!
Arti, who has waited 45 minutes for anything heading West on weekday afternoon.]
That's another issue. Waiting time, loading time, and crowding are ridiculous on a lot of the crosstown routes. If the MTA provided adequate service things would work a lot better.
It's kind of silly to talk about running light rail and special lanes when they don't even run enough buses!
Concerns especially M34 and M42 running Javitz Center. Getting frrom there is a nightmare, but of course you could always take the hotel buses :-)
Arti
[Concerns especially M34 and M42 running Javitz Center. Getting frrom there is a nightmare, but of course you could always take the hotel buses :-)]
This came up a long time ago. You would think that the MTA would keep tabs on show attendance and provide bus service to match!
Unfortunately, even the hotel buses can get stuck in traffic.
Of all the proposals I've ever thought/heard of, I think running a shuttle on Track 21 may be the most practical. It would solve the Javits access problem for a few million, in maybe a year. If you ran the train onto the West Side line, it would stop down where the M34 and M42 do now!
[Unfortunately, even the hotel buses can get stuck in traffic. ]
At least you're moving, not waiting for the bus in whatever weather.
[Of all the proposals I've ever thought/heard of, I think running a shuttle on Track 21 may be the most practical. ]
Has anyone in power ever brought that up?
Arti
[Has anyone in power ever brought that up?]
Not as far as I know. I mentioned it way back on Usenet, got a few "good idea"'s, and that's it.
It would be nice if the TA ran extra Javits buses on busy convention days. Back when I went to PC Expo in years past (before I discovered the free shuttle bus from Penn Station), I knew it was a Javits M42 without looking at the signs just from the crowds (as opposed to the three passengers or so on the 42nd Street Pier buses).
Let me get this straight.
This weekend, the northbound 2 and 5 will be reversed. Northbound 2s will be on Lex and 5s on 7th Ave? Thru service through the South Ferry Loop from Bowling Green to Chambers?
What is the cause for this reroute?
Work in the northbound track from Fulton to Chambers. At night they can simply run the 2 through Joralemon, reverse at Wall st on the 4/5, and then go through the loop and back to normal. But during the daytime 4 service runs more frequently making this difficult, so they make people who want 7th ave take the 2 to Bowling Green, cross over and get the 5.
This reroute was used for a GO last year. It's a fun ride! There's a platform conductor on the South Ferry platform waving the train through and warning the passengers waiting for the 1.
Does anyone know just how far below street level the Queensbound platform at the Lexington Av station on the 63rd St line is? I happened to be there Sunday. I am guessing that it is in excess of 70 feet.
You'll find the answer on the Line by Line write-up. (Hint: 80 & 100 feet for the upper and lower platforms, respectively.)
Keep in mind that the 63rd St. line ducks beneath the Lexington Ave. line at that point, and the Lex is bilevel as well. The way it's built, you can't tell you're that far down.
in Monday's Inkie. Completion forecast for 2003. Click here for accompanying graphic.
Will this areial tram be manufactured by doppelmayr(a lift maker)?
This piece of S*** is the reason it now costs $3 to cross the bridge. The DRPA should spend its money on things that might actually help people (expanded PATCO service, lower PATCO fares, a transit tunnel under the delaware, etc) instead of throwing money into the black hole that is Camden. The best way to revitalize Camden is to build a wall around it and when wait for about 100 years.
"This piece of S*** is the reason it now costs $3 to cross the bridge."
The PATCO line is the reason, not this. $26 million is a drop in the bucket. And if it helps attract developers to both sides of the river, that's a good thing. Camden is in deep trouble, but thanks to the Aquarium, the park, a new Performing Arts Center, people have a reason to go there - and therefore also visit the Philly waterfront.
"The DRPA should spend its money on things that might actually help people (expanded PATCO service, lower PATCO fares, a transit tunnel under the delaware, etc)"
Agreed. Hopefully the new GM just hired will have a decent Capital Plan to work with. His first stated priority will be to replace aging rolling stock.
" instead of throwing money into the black hole that is Camden. The best way to revitalize Camden is to build a wall around it and when wait for about 100 years."
Would you like to show us how that's done? Maybe you could climb into a box and wait 100 years. That would be enough time for you to figure out how to think, then post. Then when you come out your foot might have had a chance to work its way out of your mouth.
Camden is in deep trouble, but thanks to the Aquarium, the park, a new Performing Arts Center, people have a reason to go there - and therefore also visit the Philly waterfront.
Getting people over to Camden so they can be robbed is not the way to fix the local economy. Camden need real, skilled jobs like it had back in the day. Its need factories and support services and big industry. Low paying jobs that are dependant on disposable income is not the way to go. Entertainment gets cut first in a recession. The people of Camder should have safer jobs making something like SOUP!
This piece of S*** is the reason it now costs $3 to cross the bridge.
I don't know. It's kind of nice to have drivers subsidize pedestrians for a change, instead of the other way around.
Yep, that's right, the F will run on the express tracks from 4th ave to Church, presumably the G will turn at Church (probably OOS, or maybe in service so G riders don't have to change to two Fs to get to Fourth ave).
What did you expect, a miracle? (to those who click on this thinking Jay to Church).
Actually, yours would be more of a miracle. Unless they've put in new switches that I don't know about, the F must get onto the Express track at the interlocking between Jay st and Bergen.
No, G uses the Express tracks to turn, F can access them that way.
I will be going to Miami for a day in May to renew my Brazilian passport. I want to know how useful is the elevated subway there in getting around? Is it a bus connection to get to the commuter rail station at Maimi Int'l Airport? Are there many tourist spots there that can be easily accessed by Metrorail?
There is no connection with MIA to the Metrorail. The Metrorail is about 2 miles from the airport. Check the Miami/Dade website
http://www.metro-dade.com/mdta/ for services to and from the airport on the Metrobus.
As for the touring, Coconut Grove is a popular tourist stop. It about a 1/4 mile from the station heading west.
Then there is Bayside on the MetroMover for the Hard Rock Cafe.
Enjoy,
Paul
Rob,
You're a Brazilian (dual) citizen? Wow, you learn something new every day.
-Dave
Yup, which is great, because I always get to wait in the short line at both US and Brazilian immigration points, and they never check my bags at customs.
If you don't mind my asking, why is it that the passport has to be renewed in Miami? Is that the only Brazilian consulate that offers passport renewal? Or just the closest one to Atlanta?
I believe that's the closest one to me. My mom says that's where I need to go, she wouldn't tell me to go there if there was one in Atlanta. The consulate used to be in Atlanta, but they went to Miami.
Took an after school trip to Philly, here's a list of what I saw:
E60 #610 coupled to Genesis 110 pulling 3 AMFLEETs, a Horizon diner car, and some unidentifyable single-level sleeper and non-passenger cars. At Penn Station around 12:03, also passed / raced my SEPTA train at Milepost 83 around 2:10 PM(kids on tracks, LEs on both trains honking and looking for debris on tracks going at about 20 MPH).
AEM-7 pulling 4-5 cars with Metroliner cab car on end. passed my train after Cornwells Hts at around 2 PM.
Multiple MARC Heritage cars on many NY-DC trains.
What was an Amtrak train with both an E 60 and Genesis engines as well as Heritage cars (never north of DC) doing in Penn?
Why so many Marc cars on Amtrak? Don't they only do that for Thanksgiving and Christmas?
A train of 2 E-60's, 3 MARC cars and a bunch of Amtrak cars passed my northbound NJT train at Linden around 8 AM yesterday.
110 could have went tits up and the E60 rescued it (or vise versa if I've got the coupling wrong). Ridership is way up on the cooridor so MARC cars might have been pressed into service if there was too many Bad Ordered Amfleet.
Metroliner cab could have been in clocker service or going out to Harrisburg....
They frequently run E60's and DM Genesis' together. Not enough electrics.
>E60 #610 coupled to Genesis 110 pulling 3 AMFLEETs, a Horizon diner car, and some unidentifyable single-level sleeper and non-passenger cars. At Penn Station around 12:03, also passed / raced my SEPTA train at Milepost 83 around 2:10 PM(kids on tracks, LEs on both trains honking and looking for debris on tracks going at about 20 MPH).
*************
Nothing unusual about that, except for the Genesis. It is train 41 to Chicago, normal consist with a 10/5 Sleeper, and Chicago based Amfleet and Horizon cars. Genesis engines belonginf to the Northeast Corridor CBU often deadhead thru NY to exhcnage Philly baed engines with New Havne ones. The Genesis in New Haven are portect for Acela Regional trains.
The Genesis in New Haven are portect for Acela Regional trains.
There are no Genesis trains in New Haven, at least not when I was there a few weeks ago. It's the last bastion of the F40.
Yes, but there are one or two at any given time somewhere east of New Haven to rescue electrics on Acela Regionals. Several months ago, I saw Genesis 101 deadhing east thru Newark behind an E60 on a Clocker.
Read Apology + Celleys (Cell phones).... Not Celleys (cell phones)...& Apology
Fox 5 had a brief blurb about Chinatown businesses protesting the plans for Grand St. at the MTA HQ.
While I don't see any way out of service cutbacks I do feel bad for these small, struggling business people. Protesting the MTA won't do much to stop it, and they will lose an amount of business once the A/B tracks close. Blame the planners, Grand street wasn't designed as a terminal.
These people need to be sat down and educated. Because it's considered a "temporary" reroute, their input is not legally required. And because of the dire need for the Manhattan bridge reconstruction, there isn't any alternative.
As Kid Rock would say, you can't change it, you can't rearrange it.
Article in today's Daily News about NIMBY's in Rego Park that are opposed to re-activation of an abandoned stretch of railroad that used to connect LIRR to the Rockaways from the Main line.
http://www.mostnewyork.com/2001-03-19/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-103849.asp
"Norman Silverman of the Rockaway Transit Coalition said that before the line was closed in 1950, the commute from the peninsula to midtown Manhattan, with a connection at White Pot Junction, took 38 minutes."
"Tom Kelly, MTA spokesman, said LIRR and subway trains are incompatible and cannot operate on the same tracks. He said the agency will continue to examine ways to improve train service on the peninsula."
Surely there are simple solutions to this, such as
--Running some LIRR coaches along the subway under an FRA exemption (I hope that Tom Kelly was misquoted, because what he said just ain't true in any significant sense)
--Turning the A into JFK along the Airtrain tracks, leaving the Rockaways with LIRR service to Howard Beach and Jamaica
--Running the express bypass from the Rockaways, down the main line, and into the City in place of the V
Etc.?
As to the supposed dangers of the Rockaway line, maybe we can take up a collection to buy a fence, lol
I'm a YIMBY in Rego Park. Though technically it's nowhere near my apartment building's back yard, we all got the same politician.
Anyway, as for how it would be possible, I still say a subway line be sent down. The TA clearly planned for this.
For LIRR use, the swing bridges and Hammels Wye would have to be rebuilt, I don't think those TA built replacements could handle 85' cars. And if we ever want bilevel service down there (and possibly the M-class stuff would need this done too), we'd have to tear down the station mezzanines at Howard Beach and Broad Channel.
Here's what should be done: LIRR runs service to Ozone Park, then tracks rise over and down to become the middle ones at Aqueduct. Tracks merge into one and island platforms placed on both sides for Howard BCH. Across the platform transfer to the subway for continuing trip. Fares collected on the LIRR there would have the appropriate subway fare deducted. Fares to the station would include the subway fare.
And, to draw ridership, have the sign and announcement at Penn Station say "JFK Airport train on track X", with the list of stops reading Woodside | Rego Park-Parkside, Brooklyn Manor | Woodhaven, Ozone Park | JFK Airport | Howard Beach. "|" denotes breaks between each flip thing, "-" denotes on same line, "," separates lines on same flip thing.
Henry,
I like your idea.
Consider this amendment to it.
1. A flyover between Woodhaven and Ozone Park to allow for future growth and inclusion of the Atlantic Ave. LIRR branch.
2. A flyover at the junction where the "A" currently joins the Rockaway Branch.
3. A flyover south of the Belt Pkwy to a spur with an Island Platform heading to JFK but terminating north of the current Howard Beach Station.
4. A flyover after Rego Park connecting to the Connecting RR ROW heading towards HELLGATE and LGA.
The terminal for the Airtrain at Howard Beach, still under construction is turning towards the South, away from the City, away from LGA . It exudes negativaty towards any real co-operation with the MTA and a single seat ride NOT controlled by the P.A.
It looks like IMHO we need a few flies(over) in the ointment.
avid
the good old day when the D was the brighton exp. and QJ was local it was fun trip to coney island
agreed, that's how it always should have been
What?
So let me get this:
D as express to Brighton
J (that's what the QJ is) to Coney Isle.
No Q train
I know a few people on this site who would be pretty mad ( UNDERSTATEMENT) if there was no Q on Brighton.
Uh, what difference does it make if it's called the Q or the D?
>>Uh, what difference does it make if it's called the Q or the D?<<
Well, Q ran via Broadway, D via 6th av. If we had a J and D serving Brighton, with NO broadway service, that would be a bad idea. Especially since broadway gets more service than Nassau.
Direct service to lower Manhattan from Brighton.
Prior to 1967, the Q was the Brighton Express via Broadway (Manhattan). Also at that time, you had a QT (Brighton Local via Broadway through the tunnel) and, evenings and weekends, the QB (Brighton Local via Broadway over the bridge). After Chrystie St opened, one could philosophize that the D (6th Av-Concourse express) was extended to Brooklyn via the old BMT Brighton line. There was no Broadway/Brighton express any more, thus the Q died at that time. The QJ was a Brighton local that went to the Broadway/Brooklyn line via the Nassau Loop, thence to Jamaica.
The QJ filled the lower Manhattan void left by the QT, the rush hour QB filled the Broadway void. All got R27/30. The D replaced the Q. But the all R32 Q service became 2/3rds R1 of the D, and performance levels dropped, especially when they were asking 35 year old cars with only half the axles powered to climb over the Manhattan Bridge.
Actually, it was about 2/3rds R32 and 1/3 R1/9. I ought to remember, how I loved the R32s and hated the R1/9s. Same for the B. The N got a mix of R32s and R27/30s, IIRC about half and half. I also had the impression that the old cattle cars had a struggle accelerating and to keep up on inclines, and they seemed to lower on-time performance.
Right on the car type mix. R32 were the majority on the D.I was a new motorman then (Nov 67) and had previously spent most of my conductor time on the D. We never had any trouble staying on time when the D went via Culver, for the entire run, with the R1-9, in fact often made up time or ran a bit ahead thru Manhattan. Below West 4th with the D on Brighton it wasn't easy to stay on time, schedules had been cut 4 minutes from that of the standards when the SMEE cars took over and it was very touchy with an R1-9. But uptown, no problems. At least this is from my experience, a lot of the BMT M/M who hadn't run them previously ran late, and of course 2 minutes here becomes ten up the line when things are busy. I had no trouble on the bridge but that's just luck, I admit a lot of the trains were bad but believe me there were plenty of bad R27's then too. The seemingly unbeatable R32 could make the bridge even with 3 dead motors.
To answer another poster on this thread the R1-9 may have only had half the axles powered but the motors were 190 HP each almost equal to the 4-100 HP motors of the newer cars.
I'll end by admitting I rarely kept an R1-9 on time below DeKalb, usually made it within 2 minutes though.
For the incline, you really needed the traction of all powered axles, rather than just horsepower, correct ?
Shame on me for not knowing the answer. Especially having been a freight engineer with a mountain grade on my run, as well as being a M/M. We were limited to so many powered axles on the head end and so many pushing on the rear, must have some factor involved that involves number of powered axles. But you can be sure, let's say we normally had 5 SD40's at 3000 HP each on one end and 4 shoving, if we substituted SD7/9's for them at 1500-1750 HP each we"d be lucky to make it halfway up the hill, if that.Depending on the train tonnage...my basic example is 13,000-14,000 ton grain or coal train.With the SD7 or SD40 you still have 6 powered axles each but the SD40 is twice as powerful. My typical long winded post but I haven't given a straight answer, only relating experience.
The BMT standards when you had a good train made the 4% bridge grades no problem..2 powered axles per car each motor only 140 HP, these cars were heavier at 47 1/2 tons and some 6 or 8 car trains had a trailer. The R1-9 were theoretically all motors at spme 42 tons per car 2 powered axles @ 190 HP each. Age wouldn't matter, if all the motors are pulling and loading enough amp"s the bridge was no sweat. It was dead motors and motors dropping out under load that makes a slow or underpowered train.
Thanks, Big Ed, for the reminiscences, I really appreciate them. So my feeling about the struggle on the R1/9 on the revised D (Brighton) to keep up with the pace (much faster on the Brighton than on the Culver) were right.
--Harry
Are you the guy who took the 10 car train into Canal the first day? :•)
The BMT standards had only half of their axles powered, and they scaled the bridge for 50 years.
Seems to me that the best days were even further back. When there was Brighton Express service 7 days a week. Broadway Express 6 days and Brighton-Franklin Express on Sundays and in summer on other days, too.
I only go back as far as 1959. The Brighton Express ran Mon-Sat, about 6 am - 8 pm. The Brighton local ran via the tunnel Mon - Fri, 6 am - 8 pm, and via the bridge when the express wasn't running. On Saturdays, it ran via the Franklin Shuttle. By 1961, I know that has stopped. Check the schedules on the historical maps on the site.
A SubTalk friend told me that the Circus train would arrive on Monday, so I went by about 8:30 PM ... too late, even the elephants were already gone over to the Colosseum.
The set up at the end of the old Central Branch is a little different this year because LIRR is removing the yard across the street from LI Bus. For the first time the train runs across the road down the old Central Branch ROW almost to the Meadowbrook Parkway. I was there Saturday & saw that the ROW had been cleared of years of neglect and the Engine 35 group's former LIRR coaches & a couple of Hacks had been moved off those tracks.
Mr t__:^)
The circus train went through Newark Penn Station at 10:55 AM Monday. I saw it from the Harrison Ave PATH station.
What power was it using?
Two E-60's.
Speaking of the circus train, Newsday today has an article on life in the Ringling Bros circus and in the last paragraph mentions that the train is no longer permitted at Sunnyside.
Does any one know why? Does this include Yard A? Where are they going instead?
-- Kirk
I took this picture today as I passed by (one hand on the steering wheel and one hand on the camera!)
Bob, that's the place alright. That car is the last of about 30 in a string. To Bob's right is the yard (or what's left of it) that they use to use.
Mr t__:^)
I was just by there today, the rail yard was removed.
Went into a local hobby shop, Willis Hobbies, this Saturday & took another look at a book I passed up several times.
On closer inspection I found "Traction Yearbook '84" by Joe Saitta (of Bus Mega Calendar fame contained 38 transit maps from around the World. I liked Boston's Green line which includes, now former, lines to Watertown & Arborway. Also Philly, Baltimore, Pittsburg & San Francisco are included in the 23 USA maps.
Some of the "news" is also still current, i.e. new line for LA & Portland.
The book is a little pricy for 17 year old news, that's why I passed on the other years for sale.
BTW, they had one more lift of the '84, plus, I think, a '82 & '83 edition.
Mr t__:^)
I have just received two catologues. The first was the Lionel 2001 Vol.1 and the other was K-Line 2001.
Both had car types that were of interest to me and may be of interest to some of you.
These were the Lionel MUs for the Long Island Rail Road and the Illinois central. Both had Pantographs in the catologue. I expect a change will be made to the L.I version. If not, its a collectors item. They also had dummies for last years New Haven and Reading but it appears as if the Lionel people didn't make a combine as was the case with the Lackawanna and Pennsylvinia versions of several years back.
The K-Line interurbans have changed from their earlier versions. The earlier ones were Heaveyweight coaches ,combines and dinners adapted for "interurban" services by being made self propelled. They gave a nice variety when Lionel suspended the Mu line for its own reasons.The older versions made fleet expansion easy by matching the coaches of their other Heaveyweights to the interurbans. The pennsylvinia , Reading and Lackawanna are examples of this. the K-line interurbans changed from a six wheel truck to a four wheel power truk for the interubans, so a six wheel coach with a four wheel interurban would be noticed but forgiven.
This new release has changed car bodies, sound and controls. The car bodies look identical to the Lionel, the under carriage looks identical, yet the K-line has gone to a six wheel truck with the motors in the trucks while Lionel has four wheel trucks and uses can motors. There are small differences and the K-line units use Trolly poles while the Lionel uses Pants.
If any of the readers went to the Toy Fair a little while back and saw these items or have access to the Catologues, please make the comparisons and express your thoughts.
Oh, one other thing , the K-line units are almost half the cost of the lionel units. There seems to be a difference in delivery dates as well.
avid
It seems these three are following the lead of som of the lesser known manufacturers by expandinding into transit and commuter areas.
Atlas , is heavy into commuter products considering their limited product line.
avid
I've always found it strange that the branches of railroading that the majority of people are xposed to received so little attention in the model field. Maybe its because most people hate commuting?
In my latest page, Transit Pictures 19 I have two pictures (19-10 and -11) of an M train at Queensboro Plaza. It was not in service, but I have a picture of the sign and it said M|Metropolitan Av|Bay Parkway.
What's with these M trains going to the wrong part of Queens, going up the wrong Broadway?
Here's your answer:
> It was not in service
-Dave
It was probably a schoolcar.
I think the M is giving its R42 to N.
There was a situation a while back in which M trains were rerouted up Broadway via the express tracks. I can't recall if they terminated at 57th St. or continued to Queensboro Plaza.
Might be doing a Tranning Run on Broadway Line or just might have been doing mid-day service on N Train and got call down to the M Line.
R-42 #4900
The M must be 8 cars, the N must be 10. Doubtful, since the TA doesn't like messing with extra cars during the day.
The train I saw was 8 cars long, so based on the other responses to this thread, I'm guessing it's a training run.
If your pictures were taken last week, then I have the answer as to why you saw that M train at Queensboro Plaza.
Last week, I went for a conductor's refresher course for three days. One of those days, we took an M train of 8 R42 cars out of Coney Island Yard for school car purposes. We travelled up the N line from Coney Island Yard to Astoria and back practicing announcements and door operations.
That's how the M wound up at Queensboro Plaza.
Why can't the M run to Coney Island (rather than Bay Parkway) if they get almost there for the yard anyway ?
I would guess it's because of the time it takes to turn around a B and the ability to switch tracks north of the station. All 4 lines going in to Stillwell have only one type of train going to CI. (i.e., one Sea Beach (N), one West End (B), one Culver (F) and one Brighton (local)).
Right---and I'm not about to see the M go to Coney Island and the Sea Beach pushed off it like they were on the Manny B. You want the M to go to Coney? Trade places with the B, otherwise bug off M fans.
Why can't they both go ? There are more F's than the B & M together.
>>Why can't they both go ? There are more F's than the B & M together.<<
1. Are there loads of passengers between Bay pkwy and Coney Isle? No, there aren't. Thus, there's no need to run an M train to Coney Isle.
2. Granted, The F does swamp all other south lines in terms of service (Once again, Culver is superior), but some trains turn at Kings hwy. In the evening rush, some trains come From ave. X yard and are put in at Jay st.
Were you there Friday? My new T/O class was there and saw a conductor's refresher class around the school car (I asked "is that for those who have messed up"?).
Little known fact Bronx born singer and actress Jay-Lo named her first album On the 6. Representing her line that runs through the Parkchester section of the Bronx
She actually explained that on several talk shows. According to her, the subway was her link to Manhattan and the encouragement of her show business aspirations. She never mentioned if she changed at 125 St for an express or not. If she did, that would make her a train buff in my book.
Little known fact Bronx born singer and actress Jay-Lo named her first album On the 6. Representing her line that runs through the Parkchester section of the Bronx
Nowadays, though, she probably wouldn't be caught dead on a train and travels everywhere by limousine.
>>> Nowadays, though, she probably wouldn't be caught dead on a train and travels everywhere by limousine. <<<
Which is understandable. Fans of celebrities (particularly in the entertainment business) often make it impossible for them to travel with the masses.
Tom
Don't forget she did a great job as the one of the co-stars in 'Money Train'.
Could be a connection there?
BMTman
I don't believe she was in any of the subway scenes, though.
Practically the entire movie consisted of "subway scenes"
She even played the decoy token clerk.
Yeah, she actually had a couple of train or tunnel shots in some video she did about a year ago (I forget the title) featuring Fat Joe & Big Pun. It was my favorite from her, maybe the record, maybe the video..who knows?....
it is called "feelin' So Good, the video sshows Jennifer and her club going friends Fare Evading, and the Station Agent is letting them jump the turnstile because he doesnt want them to miss the train
. . .and it's a bad-assed DVD also, I know cause I have it. A Redbird signed as an IRT #6 is in fact the "star" of the face of her first CD as well, and she has stated for her video theme for "feelin so good" that she wanted to return and pay homage to her humble Bronx roots, which would of course have to include the el subway. Id this a classy, unpretentious down to earth gal or what?! I have run into celebs in NYC before and never bothered them, but in Ms.Lopez's case, I'd definitely make an exception, esp. now that Puffy's outta the picture! -Peace and GB, Thomas:-)
haha, good man. I just wonder what station they all got off in the video.
I always said she was Fare Evading playing around. But in real life would that be considered Fare Evading? She gave money for tokens to the SA but he told her to hop instead of waiting for the tokens. Would that be considered Evading fare?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Betcha the token booth person would have some explaining to do as to those excess tokens in inventory. But sure, makes for nice pictures.
I probably shouldn't say it, but I suspect a lot of us wouldn't mind giving her the railfan window, provided you get a seat right uh...behind.
Uh. Sorry fellas.
:-) Andrew
I don't know if Jennifer Lopez really likes trains, but she has one hell of a caboose.
LOL!
I'm ROTFLMAO!
BMTman :-)
You can say that again.
I don't know if Jennifer Lopez really likes trains, but she has one hell of a caboose.
You can say that again
I don't know if Jennifer Lopez really likes trains, but she has one hell of a caboose.:-)
:-) Andrew
"I don't know if Jennifer Lopez really likes trains, but she has one hell of a caboose."
Then couple up !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Here, here!!! -Thomas:-/
Speaking of the (6) Pelham Bay Line, some time ago I saw a TV interview with late comedic actor Richard Mulligan. He said of his early days he commuted to Manhattan by the "Pelham Line" in hopes of making it big.
Then of course there was Pelham 1-2-3 ! Any Pelham stories to add to this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Im so bad of a train fanatic when i was a child,me and my cousin would run down the sidewalk pretending to be trains.He was the A-train becuase his name was Anthony,and I was the J train becuase my name is Joey.I was jealous of him becuase he went all the way to Far-Rockaway.
My friend and I set up a "subway" bike route, with express and local stops, around our neighborhood. We even had a feature whereby the local went one route and the express bypassed it with another route, kind of like the bridge/tunnel BMT, or the Queens IND between QP and Roosevelt.
When I was about 6 years old I would link gum wrappers and make trains, then make yards and pretend the lines on my old carpet were tracks. ( I never marked up the gum wrappers ;-)Ha it was great.
Kids in the city really know how to play. I live in suburbia now, and if it isn't organized into a league where you pay a fee, you don't do it.
Anyway, I just remembered that my friend and I use to play "Culver Shuttle" in his bedroom. He had some kind of electrical box with a red on and green off button, and a key, which was similar to the door operation on those old cars. He was the conductor, while I was the motorman. He'd open his bedroom door and look both ways to make sure it was safe to close it again, then go into the ritual with the keys and the buttons.
Good one Gloria did he make the sound of the doors closing,you know that electronic ding doon.Haha
I was so bad as a kid,that at 5 years old my mother would ask me for directions on what train to take to a certain place.
I couldn't give directions at 5, but by age 12, I was pretty good. I would get requests from adults. I would ask them what time of day they wanted to go, so I would know which trains were running. If I was personally familiar with the route given, I would tell them which car to sit in, which door in the car to exit from, directions through the stairways at transfer points (I used to know Broadway/Nassau/Fulton fairly well), etc. One of my parents' friends actually paid me for making his trip easier!
My mother got so used to traveling on the subway with me that she wouldn't pay attention to where we were getting off. Once she went into the city without me and suddenly realized she wasn't sure where to get off a particular train. On another occasion, she and my sister were going to Lincoln Center from Port Aurthority. I told them they needed to take a 1 to 66th St. When they got home, I found out they almost got on an express at Times Square. Luckily, my mother asked someone if this was a 1 train, and was told it wasn't. I don't think I told them that the 1 operates on the outer tracks.
I've got the R-1/9 and R-10 door sounds down pat, BTW.
These cars could have been from the 1910's, for all I know, and there was no such thing as electronics then. But I used to make the brake release noise before leaving the "station".
My favorite train noise was when a train passed over a switch track slowly. Kind of a "tff-TFF tff-TFF" where the pitch of the first TFF is slightly higher than the its tff, while that of the second TFF is slightly lower than its tff. It probably was due to the back wheels of one car passing over the switch followed by the front wheels of the next car. Of course, we would do it 10 times, since our D train usually had 10 cars.
Now I know why the folks who attend the ERA meetings make all those noises in the dark ... reminiscence their youth amoung friends who want to do the same, but can't do it in front of the kids ;-)
This old farm boy missed out on that ... great stories, I enjoyed.
Mr t__:^)
I like the sounds of a train passing over a scissor switch at running speed. The one just before 75th Ave. comes to mind.
When we lived around Fresh Pond Rd. i would ride to Metropolitan Ave. in either the standards or the Q's and wait for the conductor to have all passengers off the train then take the train to the yard, imangine the look of the motorman when he saw me...well we just walked through the train and de-trained then to another train to head back to Metropolitan Ave,i've done this a few times i was about 9 or 10 at the time.this was in the early 60's.....ahhh the memories.....
I once went to visit my cousin in LI. His dad worked in downtown, so I met him at the Flatbush terminal to take the LIRR to Hicksville. I must have been 11 at the time. He knew I was a subway fan, so he asked the motorman to allow me to stand at the railfan window, which actually was in the cab, which went the full width of the car. The guy said okay, and I had a blast --- the elevated section in Bed-Stuy, the sun streaming into the tunnel at East NY, fabulous Jamaica terminal, and then express to Hicksville. Sadly, my cousin never went into the city, and never enjoyed the experience I was so grateful for.
I was always afraid of moving to the suburbs, which was actually a recent scare for me, when my family decided to move to Jersey, thankfully i'll be moving as far as 3 blocks from whre I live now
Just read some of my posts Sick Transit. You will get your answer very quickly. Look at my handle, that ought to tell you something as well. Yes I am a Sea Beach fanatic. Just ask around.
If I remember correctly, you left NYC in 1953. And I have read your posts. And, yes, you are definitely a fanatic, despite being away for almost half a century. I salute you.
I left on September 18, 1954, one year later. What you probably read was that I last visited Coney Island on the Sea Beach in Auguat of 1953. For reasons I cannot remember I never went to Coney in the summer of '54, nor did I ride the Sea Beach past New Utrecht after '53. But I never forgot my affection for my favorite train.
I would take a ball point pen and pretend it was a train and i would play on the floor,until my knees were numb.The lines on the wooden floors were the tracks.I used to pretend i was the D-train going to Coney Island.
And I bet you made that droning noise that the D used to have in those days while you were pushing that pen. Beautiful!
My face is permanently flattened from pushing against the glass to look at the tracks.haha
I used to come home with a smudge on my nose. We must have had slightly different rail fan styles.
I appropriated an empty refrigerator box, taped an R-42-style strip map I drew of my projected Hylan Boulevard-Kings Highway-Eliot Avenue-Parsons Boulevard route on the side, sat in there and made the announcements like a conductor. A tin can full of pebbles provided the sound effects. My older brother, whose window faced the backyard, wasn't too thrilled hearing this early on a summer morning. What the hey, I was 9!
I used to use a Flair thin marker to draw R-42-style strip maps of all the lines, including Division A, in the appropriate 1967-78 colors, Used the standard dash for local stop/circle for express stop format, the two-headed vertical arrow through a stop to indicate a transfer in either direction, and the peeling-off arrow to indicate a transfer where another line is branching off from yours.
I'd get a free Texaco or Mobil NYC street map from the local gas station and draw all the subway lines on in their appropriate places. When I got older, say 10, I'd start putting in the stations as well.
Every time I'd get or hear a phone number, I'd immediately try to figure out what kind of train matched the last four digits. 7408 would be a '1', later recognized as an R21; 4439, an 'E' or 'F', back when the Slants were new and travelled only those two lines. My phone number for the last sixteen and a half years is an R32.
I still sometimes drive to the New Hyde Park station to watch the M1s and double deckers (the old diesels were much louder, and hence more fun) speed through, and the gates go up and down. This, of course, is best done in rush hour.
A friend who's also a transit buff and I will vocally imitate all the sounds of an R1-9 both in motion and in a station. He can do a great R-10 warble I can't. The deceleration whine of an R-62 or an overhauled R-32 is also fun. Now we're working on the high-pitched acceleration whine of a 142A.
Sick, sick, SICK!!
You got me beat.
You know who could probably do some great subway sounds? Michael Winslow. I've got the spur-cut bull and pinion gear sounds down pat myself, not to mention the R-44 and R-46 whooooooooooooooo sound as they start up from a dead stop.
Let's see, what else did I do? I would stamp my foot whenever I'd be ready to walk from one part of the house to another, imitating the lurch one would encounter when the motorman applied power to the train. I'd build a miniature subway car sans roof out of wooden building blocks, with three or four sets of doors per side depending on whether I wanted an IRT or BMT/IND car.
I would also whistle in an attempt to imitate the compressors on the R-10s.
Heh. This is a kick. OK, I'll come clean ... when I was a kid, I'd take a shopping cart found on the street, put my arms out on the sides, rest my ear on my arm and walked it down the sidewalk. OK, so you're older and more mature now ... try it ... tell me what it sounds like. Perhaps late at night when nobody's watching. Just run it across the cracks for 100 feet or so ... you'll probably accelerate until you're running with it and you're gonna look stupid. But what the hey, it's the RIGHT sound. :)
I'm probably just as crazy as you guys. I've been making transit sounds in my head ever since I was a kid. I've been collecting old SEPTA maps (then PTC) forever. The old ones show blue lines for trolleys and it's not so fun to see the newer maps show red for the busses. Sure wish the trolleys could come back! Anyway one of my favorite sounds is a Neoplan bus in first gear. It has a whine that's
hard to forget! The old M-3 cars in Philly had a great starting sound, also!
We're not crazy, we just love our hobby!
Chuck Greene
I am absolutrely INSANE about all electric transit cars subways , trolley you name it !! I am a rail transit nut !!!!!
& proud of it man !!!
(I am absolutrely INSANE)
you finaly got something right
just kidding.
ABOUT ELECTRIC RAIL TRANSIT ........................not kidding !!
When the eastern portion of the Jamaica Avenue El was still standing I used to try to get a piece of the trains by attempting to catch the sparks that flew off the tracks whenever a train passed. Don't ask me what I was thinking though because at the time I was four, the year was 1969, and everyone was a bit nuts back then (that's why the Sixties were so INTERESTING).
Eric Dale Smith
I used to ride my bike to church on Sundays when we lived in Jersey. It was only about a half-mile from where we lived, and several side streets intersected with the main artery which led to the church. Sometimes I'd stop at each intersecting street and sometimes I wouldn't. I liked Sunday express service, so usually I wouldn't stop.:-) Not only that, but I would draw I-beams with my index finger as I rode along. Sometimes I'd stop at neighbors' driveways; sometimes I wouldn't.
I would also click my ballpoint pen on my desk at school. A Bic Clic was perfect; it sounded almost exactly the same as the trigger caps on the R-1/9s.
I don't know if teachers still make students cover their textbooks, but we had to. I'd put plain brown paper covers on my books, then draw an R-32-style signbox. The route and destination slots would have my name, the book title, and either my class section or teacher's name.
As I've said before, when we moved to New Jersey and I started commuting to New York on Saturdays, I became totally immersed in the subway.
That's a cool idea with the book covers! My literature book needs a new cover... :-)
Very cool!
Brandon
When I went somewhere as a kid, such as to visit relatives, I enjoyed the trip better than the visit because we took the subway. The LO-V's were my favorite, because the "railfan window" was big and low, and I felt as though I was in the T.O.'s cab because of that semi-enclosed vestibule. I especially HATED the R-17 and R-21/22, because the railfan windows were so high up. My favorite trip was the #4 to the Bronx: Seeing Yankee Stadium in all its (pre-renovation) glory as we emerged from the tunnel.
When I got my set of Lionel trains, I used to run them backwards and imagine that the caboose was a subway car.
When I got a bit older, I used to borrow money from my parents and sneak rides on the Brighton, Flushing, and Dyre lines...just because they were so cool.
At Stuyvesant High school, we had an after-school "Subway Club". We exchanged maps, photos, blueprints, etc, and took field trips on different lines. One of our best sources of info was someone we knew as "Sam The Conductor", who worked the F-Train. Our holy grail: finding the test train of new R-44's. I soon curtailed my activities in the club when I discovered.....um.....girls.
As an adult, I moved to Los Angeles and mostly drove a car. Currently, I run MTH subway trains in multiple loops around my apartment. And I glue my eyes to this website. Still a transit fanatic
Elliot
My friend and I couldn't just go for joy rides when we were about 13, so we had to have a definite destination. Since we lived in southern Brooklyn, sights on the IRT were especially attractive to us as they offered the highest "exploratory value." So we went to the Bronx Zoo, the New York Botanical Gardens, the Jewish Museum, etc. The last one was particularly interesting as we viewed (what is now) the Metro North tracks emerging from under Park Ave, and the walk from Lexington through El Barrio, with all the store signs in Spanish. I couldn't tell you anything about what we saw at the museum though. Such were our priorities.
When the train emerged from the tunnel it was a spiritual experience.The best is when riding the D train to Coney Island.The ride from prospect park to Sheepshead bay was boring,just trees to look at.Then after Sheepshead bay it made that sharp turn all the kids ran to the window fighting for space.When the first glimpse of the Wonderwheel became visable we were lunatics.
My family was originally from Pennsylvania. As children we had Lionel trains. My father and older brother hogged them, I was stuck with a widup set that eventually gave my little childs hands blisters from having to wind it so much. It had that key sticking out of the side of the engin.
As I grew older I really could not identify with the Santa Fe or other rail roads Lionel immortalized. I always wanted SUBWAYS!
The closest Lionel came during my childhood was the Budd RDCs and the trestle sets. I hung on the Budds and the graduated trestles and trestles like white on rice. I had the Budd pulling some 2400 series passenger cars on a layout down in the basement. When I enventually was able to get a Dummie Budd I was in near heaven. Each circuit around the layout represented the distance between stations.
The locals would stop every time at a piece of wood that was almost a high level platform. Expresses would go around as many local stops it had to pass. Sometimes three , sometimes four circuits as I'd call off the stations bypassed. I really like interurbans, and when Lionel came out with the Pennsy and Lackawanna versions my dreams were getting closer to realization.
Then comes MTH with subways! the first sets were just OK . the R/21s are getting better and i expect the R/32s will be Good.
I'm still waiting for the R/1-9 , the triplexs and the Standards.
Soon one of the manufactures will be cranking them out.
avid
Hopefully one of these days in S gauge. American Models, perhaps?
Sure , S is good as well as O gauge.
see my earlier post " Small observations" Tues. 08:00:00 ish.
avid
I visited heypaul's apartment and didn't think that having an R-9 cab in the middle of the room was anything out of the ordinary.
No if only it had wheels. :)
I used to run boxcar only trains on my HO set since they reminded me of R-32s (what to me were "the old trains" back in '88 since I rarely rode anything but Queens Blvd lines with my parents).
Whenever my dad would come over I would always ask to go to the NY Hall of Science to ride the 7 (I actually noticed some cars had orange doors on the inside while others had red), or to the Museum of Natural History so I could ride the K with its Slant R-40s (the "old-new" trains). I still remember riding one where every other car had the lights stuck on emergency (we of course were in one of those cars), it was almost total darkness. I remember one time I ended up on an R-10 C during rush hour, my only ride on that car class ever. I attempted to drag my dad into a newly GOH'ed R-46 with digital signs, despite the fact that it was an F and going back to where we came from (we always went home by going express to Continental and crossing over). I referred to pre and post GOH R-46s as "the new trains." I called R-68s "the shiny trains."
I used to look for rollsigns with old rolls after the elimination of the double letters. What's strange is that I was 4 years old and couldn't read yet (or at least I don't think I could read, I remember struggling with 'and' in Kindergarten).
I remember in 5th grade my dad offered a choice among Metroliner to Philly or DC, or regular Amtrak to Philly or DC. I asked 'what would be the longest ride on Amtrak' and he said 'regular to DC' and I chose that as the vacation.
As for how much of a fanatic I am now, I took an afterschool railfan trip to Philly! And pretty much every other day after school I will go to some destination on a railroad or ride the subway a bit.
When I would take the T and ride the red line I would skip 2 or 3 01700 or 01500 just to ride on a bombardier 01800.
I'm sure this subject has been discussed many times before, but I want to know a few things.
First, My family is planning a trip to Washington during Spring Break (We'll be going on Amtrak).
Second, I'll be going with a group of people from my church to Boston, first to sightsee for a few hours, then go over to the LDS temple up there and do some work there. After that we go home.
I believe that photography on the surface (for buses, surface trains, elevated trains) is "anything goes." How about in the respecive subway systems? I know I'll be using at least the Washington subway (Metro). I'm not sure if we'll use the Boston subway (T). We'll be car pooling up to Boston. How about recording sounds? I'll be bring my mike and MD recorder down to WDC.
Even though I live in Baltimore, I've never taken a camera into the D.C. system. My guess is that there should be no problem since I've seen people take photographs in the stations on occasion. Just make sure you have a strong flash though because the things are not the best lit.
Eric Dale Smith
I don't know about Washington, but flash photography is a big no-no on the New York subway. Use a faster film instead.
Don't use flash not because its not allowed, no flash makes better pictures for certain things. If you are at the end of a station or on the mezzanine, don't use flash. For trains leaving and arriving stations, it depends on the situation. In the cars themselves, flash is often necessary unless you have fast film. I reccomend 800 speed but 400 will barely suffice.
Why is flash photography not permitted system-wide?
I can understand why it's best avoided in the vicinity of oncoming trains, and perhaps even on the platforms altogether. But why in mezzanines and passageways or inside the trains themselves?
(I confess that I've used the flash on occasion where it couldn't possibly cause any damage. One time a cop emerged from around a bend in the passageway just after I snapped -- he surely saw the flash, and there I was with camera in hand -- yet he didn't say a word.)
Eric, please e-mail me, the e-mail link in your posts is rejected by my mail server. Since you live in Charm City, I'd like to get in touch with you.
Save yourself the panache and fribble... You can
obtain a video/photo permit from 370 Livingston.
Recording sounds can be as easy as carrying a
walkman onto the system... and you cant tell
a walkman from a square-shaped tape player/recorder.
Low-flash (no camera lights) is preferred in NYCTA
....something about not blinding motormen..
OK dumbass, for one thing, it's 370 Jay and 130 Livingston.
And for another thing: HE AIN'T TALKING ABOUT NY!
Boston is a No-No for taking pictures. On the last subtalk field trip there BMTMan even asked and was firmly told NO (you know how BMTMan likes to bend the rules).
NYC you are supposed to get a permit, check the FAQ here at this site. Even with permit you can not use Flash.
Don't know about DC.
[Even with permit you can not use Flash.]
On elevated strutures flash is premitted. You can't take shots in subway tunnels/stations with flash. Momentary blinding of the T/O or C/R can occur.
BMTman
(Boston is a No-No for taking pictures. On the last subtalk field trip there BMTMan even asked and was firmly told NO)
To take pictures in boston all you have to do is get a permit. I have never done it but I beleve you can get one by mail. If you don't want to do that and you don't use flash or tripod it is unlikly anyone will say anything to you. If they do just say your not from the area and wern't aware of the rule. stop taking pictures until the person goes away then start up again.
If you don't want to do that and you don't use flash or tripod it is unlikly anyone will say anything to you.
Not true. I was videoing in the Aquarium station of the Blue Line in 1998, w/o any ancillary equipment, and was asked to stop by an officer out of uniform. It's the only place I've gone to where they really take the "no photo no video" mantra very seriously.
--Mark
In DC, don't use flash not because its not allowed, no flash makes better pictures for certain things. If you are at the end of a station or
on the mezzanine, don't use flash. For trains leaving and arriving stations, it depends on the situation. In the cars themselves,
flash is often necessary unless you have fast film. I reccomend 800 speed but 400 will barely suffice.
Well I guess that's out because my camera has auto flash.
There's no way to turn it off? My camera has an auto flash but I can disable it if I need to.
Since you know where you'll be going in advance of the trip, why not contact each of the transit agencies and ask them? They all have a public affairs office. (Call, don't e-mail). I did this for a trip to Chicago in 1997 and was given the red carpet treatment. I mean, folks were really, really nice, and I spent over an hour talking with an employee of public affairs contrasting the NY and Chicago systems.
--Mark
Philly is another systyem requiring a permit. My first attempt at photo shoots was stopped by an employee. I got the permit. The second attempt (with permit) was met by a SEPTA transit Police Officer advising me of no photography in the system. I told the officer I had written permission from the head of public affairs and the attitude was changed from no way to thank you, have a great day. I was later stopped by several SEPTA employees who melted away after I told them I had a written permission from the head of public affairs. I was careful to taker photos away from the booth to speed time and allow me to do the entire system.
If you apply for a permit do as I did- tell them you are taking pictures for www.nycsubway.org, a non-commercial web site run by and for rail enthusiasts. Tell them the kind of photos you plan on taking such as "I plan on taking pictures of stations- architectural features, artwork, mosaics, etc." and give a specific example specific to their system. For SEPTA I gave them the example of the "independence Theme" at Fifth and Market. Also tell them you will not interfere with their normal operations, you will pay your normal fare, you will not enter non-public area, and you will not take flash pictures of oncoming trains or track workers.
SEPTA was very kind after I obtained the permit. PATCO also proved very friendly, even e-mailing me after the session to be sure no one harrassed me.
For NYC Transit you do *not* need a permit
NYCRR Chapter XXI. Metropolitan Transportation Authority Subchapet C
Conduct and Safety of the Public Part 1050.
Section 1050.9 Restricted areas and activities
(c) photography, filming or video recording in any facillity or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or rtripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid indetification issued by the New York City Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provisions of these rules.
Ancillary equipment is anything apart fromt he camera such as external flash units, light stands, etc.
Subway-Buff, do you think you could compile a list of agencies and the addresses to write to for photo permits, which I could then add to the Photography FAQ?
Thanks. :)
In the summer of 1988, I went on a trip I had long been dreaming about. I had just finished a special program at the University of Miami and was on my way home to Los Angeles (medical school would begin for me in 1989) and I decided to take Amtrak across the country. I rode the Silver Star to Orlando, got off to spend a weekend with friends touring Cape Canaveral; got back on and continued to Washington DC by sleeper, and spent time with family; Metroliner (first class car) to Philadelphia, then the R-1 to the Airport to meet my uncle; the onward to Boston, back to NY, and on to Chicago by Broadway Limited, first class. After a long layover and sightseeing, I toiok the Zephyr/Desert Wind, economy bedroom, to Los Angeles. All for $750.00.
What was even nicer was that the Amtrak train crews bent over backward to encourage me to use my camera. I took photos of the train; photos of employees at work; scenery I saw or was alerted to. The crew even woke me up at 11:00PM one night and let me hop off the train in a marshalling yard to take pictures of the train rearragement (one long train enters Salt Lake City, the three locos split up, and three trains go their separate ways). They let me ride in the head-end car shooting pictures next to the engineer as he drove the train across a yard and a couple of RR crossings. All this without permits, signatures, red tape...What a fabulous crew. Princes and princesses all.
I sent each of the crew prints. My sleeping car attendant had never had a photo taken of her in Amtrak uniform, so I had her pose in front of the car and took her picture for her scrapbook. (I even took her out to dinner in San Diego. She was nice enough, but her folks weren't very friendly. Her dad was actually retired from NYCTA and was glad he was in San Diego. He definitely thought I was unworthy to be in his presence.)
Being an EMT at the time, I was able to additionally return their kindness by looking after an elderly woman on the Zephyr who suffered from low blood pressure and making sure she got off the train safely in Salt Lake City.
I don't know where the photos are now. If I ever find them (someplace at my parents' home in LA I guess) I'll offer some to Dave Piermann for this site...
Contrary to popular belief most Blacks and Hispanics in NewYork are not on Welfare.They work and pay taxes just like anyone else.Most Whites in the south are not trailor trash or unemployed.Racism and stereotyping is barbaric and we must steer away from it.Welfare in my opinion is a chain ,a drug that is designed to keep people hooked.There are some that benefit from welfare and move on.The media needs to be held responsible for capitalizing on peoples fears.Africa is diplayed as an Aids infested famine stricken waste land.With wild animals roaming around everywhere.That is not ALL of Africa most of Africa is beautiful with different landscapes,not just jungles.There are mountains ,deserts,waterfalls and beaches.Many different people who are freindly and yes they have food to eat.Back in the 80's Rap music,grafitti,and breakdancing was considered repulsive,and some still feel that way.Now hiphop culture once hated ,is loved all over the world.Rap music,grafitti,and breakdancing started in N.Y.C
As an African-American I can definately relate to the racism on the NYC Transit system. I've been riding those trains for well over twenty years and even though I'd be standing around the forward car with a camera, certain people would grab their purses and recoil as if I was about to rob people. The police are the worst though. After the Diallo shooting, they'd strut around the platforms in poor minority neiborhoods like the Gestapo. I compared it to an armed camp. I guess the bottom line is that you have to be prepared for anything these days. I've long since resigned myself to the fact that I have as much chance as being killed by a racist cop as by a crazy criminal. I don't like it very much; I've just learned to live with it, that's all.
Eric Dale Smith
You want it to end? I can tell you a good way to start it towards its ultimate extinction. It may cost you a friend or two but here goes.
1. A white to hears a fellow white talk trash about another race, call him on it quickly and let him know that you are offended and not to talk that way in your presence again. Are you willing to do that?
2. A black hears his brother call a white person and dirty honky, stop him in his tracks and tell him to get off that crap and quick because it is racist. Are you willing to curry disfavor with a brother?
3. When a Hispanic casts aspersions on blacks and whites, tell him to grow up and stop that nonsense because he is a knave and a fool and you are pissed off at what he has said.
4. When Asians get together and call blacks thugs, whites lazy and Hispanics druggies, denounce your yellow countrymen and quickly.
This is the way to start closing the wells of racial poison, and if we are willing to do this it is a great start in that direction. If we don't then we perpetuate this crap with no end in sight.
I'm no genius by any stretch of the imagination but you have to admit that I do make a little sense.
TOUCHE!
BrooklyRican: "Contrary to popular belief most Blacks and Hispanics in NewYork are not on Welfare.They work and pay taxes just like
anyone else.Most Whites in the south are not trailor trash or unemployed.Racism and stereotyping is barbaric and we must
steer away from it.Welfare in my opinion is a chain ,a drug that is designed to keep people hooked."
Sea Beach Fred:"You want it to end? I can tell you a good way to start it towards its ultimate extinction...
Fred: I think that both of you actually see almost eye-to-eye when it really comes down to it.
The majority of us wish it was all over; then feel threatened economically when newcomers start moving in. Either by feeling competition for jobs or loss of real esatet values, whether it happens or not, or being threatened by having a different culture around you.
Even among white people [and even in Europe] one race or nation has at one time hated another.The Irish had their turn when they came over, the next generations of them were then bigoted against the Italians when they started coming to America [they were darker and Latin yet Catholic like the Irish ], thePoles had their turn; just to name a few examples. There are black tribes and Indian tribes who've hated one another likewise a lot of West Indian blacks didn't like American blacks.Everybody is guilty in one way or another. Doesn't make it right though; I can think of a lot of good friends I never would have had if I were to base my relationship with them on race.Far outnumbered by Jews in high school and blacks working for the TA back when for example.
If you have a suggestion as to how we can put an end to this bigotry in America I'm all ears. Frankly what happens between groups in other countries doesn't move me a whit, but I have heard it said that we will never be destroyed from without but from within. It would be nice if we could isolate all the bigots, white, black, latin, Asian, and sent them all into a dark hole where they would have only themselves to keep them company. There they can verbally poison themselves into oblivion.
>>> It would be nice if we could isolate all the bigots, white, black, latin, Asian, and sent them all into a dark hole where they would have only themselves to keep them company. <<<
Gee Fred, that's pretty intolerant of you to want to isolate all those people. And how lucky you are if when sending them away you would not lose any friends or relatives. Unfortunately I happen to know Irish Americans who hate Englishmen, Armenians who hate Turks, Jews who hate Arabs, Arabs who hate Israelis, Mexicans who dislike Gringos and look down upon Chicanos, quite a few Anglos who are willing to tell the latest Polish or other disparaging ethnic joke, Blacks who despise Whites in general (but tolerate me), and even a couple of WW II vets who hate Japanese. And yes, some of these people are related to me. If I were to cut off all contacts with these people, I would have no one left to talk to but Ned Flanders, and that is a horrible thought.
To my way of thinking, those who are bigoted are the losers because of their bigotry. They miss getting to know and enjoy the company of whatever group they are prejudiced against. I will not encourage their bigoted views, and let them know I do not share those views, but as long as they do not act out (no bomb throwing, cross burning, name calling, etc.), I see no reason to isolate them or actively try to change them. I guess you could say that I am not prejudiced against bigots.
Tom
I'm proud to say that I now live in a city where everyone is a minority. It kind of levels the playing field.
Not that I disagree with any of the sentiments expressed here, but what has this to do with transit?
I think it's from comments that are made in passing about certain neigborhoods and the trains that pass through them. Even though people may think they are just stating the way it is, some do take offense, because it can become an unfair stereotype. Most bigotry has a grain of truth, and all people are imperfect, and all groups exhibit certain traits that are passed down and around in the group, and what we all do is see easily the other group's flaws, but get offended when our own are pointed out. And we often do go too far in labeling a whole group of people, forgetting that people are still individuals, who can be different from their larger group.
It would be nice if racism ended. But in places where everyone is the same race, people are bigoted about religion. Or language. Or (Hutus vs. Tutsis) God knows what. Heck, in high school you had the jocks and freaks and nerds, etc.
As long as you have people who can't feel good about themselves without someone else to look down on, you're going to have some sort of ism. And there are plenty of assholes to go around.
Sad but true, and well put succintly. Perhaps the only real antidote for racism is actually to be found in self-esteem and confidence training fro all. -peace, Thomas:-)
"It would be nice if racism ended. But in places where everyone is the same race, people are bigoted about religion. Or language. Or (Hutus vs. Tutsis) God knows what. Heck, in high school you had the jocks and freaks and nerds, etc.
As long as you have people who can't feel good about themselves without someone else to look down on, you're going to have some sort of ism. And there are plenty of assholes to go around."
I wish I could disagree with you Larry. But you've got it exactly right. As a society we have to fight relentlessly to keep this under control as much as possible. We should do our best, but understand the fight's never over.
and some of the cause of this stupidity derives from a perception of scarcity--If I don't cheat them I will never have enough food, sex, power ad nauseam. It was at one time the case that there really was scarcity of material goods worldwide. That excuse is crumbling although with little help from the meta-national crooks. In turn we are sadly, IMHO, outrunning the carrying capacity of the ecosystem so that the hope for a decent standard of living for ALLmay be receding permanently (until we lose a billion or so)
All that said, the us and them sucks big time. We all breathe etc. And last I looked, we could all use to be more considerate.
Amen to that!
"Now hiphop culture once hated ,is loved all over the world.Rap music,grafitti,and breakdancing started in N.Y.C"
Actually, I listen to a Parisian hip-hop station (Ado 97.8) all day at work. It's about 20% French rap and 80% American fare (and no, it's not all MC Solaar). My office mate is half African-American and half Hungarian and majored in French, so she loves it too. And techno music was born in Detroit, from local rap DJ's.
Racism is born of ignorance, and those who spout it are just plain ignorant. You sound like you have something we all need - WISDOM.
Thanks.
Rap music still sucks. I don't care who does it, it's the most talentless crap on Earth and it sounds repulsive.
What does hating cRap (a well earned name) have to do with racism?
Well, why do people say rap (like disco before it) "sucks" (and then usually favor some form of hard rock)? People speak as if their preference is some universal law of the universe (I say, therefore it sucks). I have the same dealings with fundamentalist Christian brethren who put down all pop music, rock as well as black styles, which are all based on the same African backbeat drum rhythms. Of course, they avoid race references now, trying to say the styles are contary to Christian living, or offensive to God, but the racial connection is unavoidable (Bob Jones University is a prominent promoter of these teachings)
I don't like Rap music, it's crap and those are MY universal ideas.
Meanwhile you can like what you want, just use a walkman.
However, BrooklynRican was comparing the hatred of rap to racism.
What I was saying was that these strong hatreds of certain music styles can and have in the past stemmed from racism. I wasn't sure if my last post went on, and I reloaded to see if it did or not, but what I was going to add was that this doesn't mean that everyone who hates a certain type of music is racist, just that it has often stemmed from that, so it is understandable that someone would make such a correlation. Especially when there has been so little objectivity in saying something sucks, or is "satanic" or whatever, even though it is unprovable.
I don't think that rap music is "satanic" or anything. In fact, I like the fact that it has explicit lyrics. I just don't like the music style.
>>I don't care who does it, it's the most talentless crap on Earth and it sounds repulsive.<<
Can you rap? I mean really rap, not that crap that some performers sell as REAL rap music? Didn't think so.
Can you rap? I mean really rap, not that crap that some performers sell as REAL rap music? Didn't think so.
If what is sold as real rap music is crap, then what is actual real rap music?
And why the hell does any of this have anything to do with the fact that I don't like to HEAR rap?
I do not like rap music either, but for those who do, I say knock yourselves out with it. Jazz is more my thing, but I will not push it on anyone.
Moving along to other things, when is the next fan trip featuring old equipment like the Standards or D types? I would go for another ride on a set of Low V's. Are the Q cars all gone, or are there enough for a fan trip?
>>If what is sold as real rap music is crap, then what is actual real rap music?<<
Some people with no rapping skills but with extremely filthy mouths (Eminem, come on down!!) sell platnium albums. Others like Mystikal can actually rap, something that does take talent.
>>And why the hell does any of this have anything to do with the fact that I don't like to HEAR rap?<<
You said rapping takes no talent. That's what the hell it has to do with your post.
Still, I listened to a Mystikal track, the music was there, but it still sounded like talking to a beat. Although more pleasant sounding than Eminem.
Still, it's rhyming, it's wit (not just any words that rhyme, for it to say something), and not everyone has it in this area.
Then it should be called poetry, not music.
There's nothing wrong with poetry. Violence and other similar things rapped about are serious issues and do not make it any less of a valuable work.
Well, I don't advocate the violence. I liked it back when it was message oriented, and socially conscious. Then a style called "ego" (bragging about one's self and posessions such as gold, brand name clothes, how tough you are and how weak others ["suckers"] are) took over (really populariized by Run-DMC and others), then it was all downhill from there. (And they never could figure out why violence broke out at their concerts, except to blame the fans).
But still all of this says nothing about the style of audio entertainment. And alot of rap does have musical (i.e. harmony, melody) accompaniment behind it, whether sampled from someone else, or original.
>>I listened to a Mystikal track, the music was there, but it still sounded like talking to a beat. Although more pleasant sounding than Eminem.<<
1. No one can rap like that. That's a lot more than talking (BTW: What track was it?)
2. Eminem is utter crap. How he continues to make and sell albums makes me mad.
3. Many rap songs use music from other old songs. I.E. DMX's latest hit: Ain't No Sunshine. I'm sure people know that song, but few have heard the rap.
also this should apply to naming ""sport teams"" after native americans as well such as the atlanta braves cleveland indians
washinton redskins kansas city chiefs !! this would go a long way to solve the problem !! ( thank you ) ............
GET A LIFE - PLEASE
How can you be so sensitive to the plight of the Native American, be so down on racism and post the garbage you've posted elsewhere?? Stick to trains, salaam. I like you better there. When it comes to fighting against racism, however, you have no credibility with me.
Why doesn't salaam have credibility? I have seen no racist post here and do not plan on spending hours of my time searching every detail of salaam's life. I do not agree with most of what he says but I understand why an Islamic person who is one half Native American would be sensitive. Have you ever noticed the in the movies the terrorist are always Islamic?
First, you are absolutely correct about the islamic terrorists. Just like the islamic terrorists in "The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3" or "NightHawks" or the terrorists in "The Patriot" (Steven Segal movie).
Secondly, I did state very clearly that it was his posts elsewhere for which I find he has no credibility when it comes to complaining about other people's 'racism'. Did you not read that?
Third, I don't give a rat's ass whether you agree with salaam 10% or 100%. This was my posting, not yours. If you disagree with him - it's not my problem.
(I did state very clearly that it was his posts elsewhere for which I find he has no credibility when it comes to complaining about other people's 'racism'. Did you not read that? )
I read it but I didn't see any proof. Provide a link to a racists statements or stop the slander.
(I don't give a rat's ass whether you agree with salaam 10% or 100%. This was my posting, not yours. If you disagree with him it's not my problem.)
I was just pointing out that a disagree with him but still think that you are treating him unfairly.
Dand124: I could see what you meant, but let me tell you something about Train Dude. When you comment about something he says, you had better be damn clear that you know what you're saying and what you mean and what he meant because the Dude doesn't suffer fools lightly. Not that you're a fool but I once commented incorrectly about something he stated and he let me know very quickly that I was out to lunch. I appreciated his candor and now he's one of my best buddies on this site. One more thing. Dude is a very strong individual and he states his case and really doesn't give a rat's ass what others may think of him. Another reason I dig him. You'll find him the same type of stand up guy if you know what he was saying before you comment on it. Have a good one.
"I read it but I didn't see any proof. Provide a link to a racists statements or stop the slander."
I resent the use of the term- slander. It implies that I can not back up what I've said. I think if you read salaam's response to me - you'll see that he acknowledges that he's made (anti-white and anti-semetic)statements on his websites and he's proud of his stance. perhaps he'll provide the links for you. I see no need to give his websites free publicity. Incidently, there are roughly 20 - 30 people on Subtalk who have seen his posts with varying responses. Perhaps you may hear from some of them but I think we beat this to death months ago.
My intent : I will accept salaam's point of view on virtually any subject except racism. He's already shown himself to be an extremist in that area.
please give all of your links & websites first !! lets see you exposed naked first
Salaam, I have one website www.suffolkwings.com, currently under construction. I have another that is not yet up, pertaining to my work location. Now, if you want to see me naked, you'll have to come to NYC and we can really get personal. Salaam, are you that way?????
also list all of the posts you make in every type of club & website what websites you belong to yahoo clubs & with your real name
" train dude " is not your real first & last name it is only a handle here on subtalk !!!
I do find it very interesting how nobody listed my websites on marching drum sections etc.. rail transit sites & clubs & photos !!
Even my star trek & yahoo clubs on rail transit sites the pasadena blue line etc.... ????
But you people find naming sport teams after native americans an ok thing to do?? Hmmmmmmm!!??
Sometimes my desire to be correct is outweighed by my need to be right. The correct thing would have been to ignore the challange by Dand124. I didn't do the correct thing. I apologize for posting the link to your webpage, Salaam.
I have very strong feelings about race & racism, Salaam. Why is my business. I simply object to you portraying yourself as a racially sensative person when I've (we've) seen the other side of you. Sadly, you are adamant and proud of that position. I wish it were not so because you seem to be an interesting person otherwise. As for your other websites - it's like a person with very bad breath. Sometimes they smell so bad that you can't even hear what they are saying.
As for your challange, salaam, to post every webpage and link - you didn't post all of your websites. Those who were offended by some of your beliefs found them. We shared them by e-mail because of our anger & moral outrage. As for me, I'm a normal, healthy middle-age male. I have normal appetites and interests. This is the only such site I frequent. I purchase on e-Bay under the name trainmaster7. If you check, you'll see I spend too much on electric trains. I have no passwords on my home computer & my wife has open access to it. There is nothing to hide there. If you want to spend countless hours researching me, be my guest but it's unlikely that you'll find much.
Again, I'm sorry that I exposed your dirty laundry.
I accept you apology if you would like you can e mail me & talk back & fouth so understanding wiil be the first line of discussion
Remember folks of SUBTALK please let us keep this discussion board ON TRACK & ON TOPIC & let us here stop wearing out
or VERY NICE webmaster who has brought me much joy & made me happy seeing all of the wonderful links phaotos of the old
retired subway cars etc RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEMS WORLDWIDE. I do to want to go into any subtalkers businress as to what
you do ( maybe you belong to some x rated site etc..) & or if you have a religion you are left or right wing & how you view race.
I am also not asking anyone on this forum to post thier laundry unless its photos of all types of trains / transit etc.....
THEN I AM INTERESTED !!! woooooppppeeee !! & I welcome anyone to join any of my yahoo clubs on trains view my photo
pics anyone can download for thier own pleasure etc.. Feel free to be a critic & rate them as well is fine with me !!
go to my GENERAL PROFILE under asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
{ http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications } ..... & ..... { http://profiles.yahoo.com/nationislam }
i will send you invitations to join my yahoo clubs on rail transit systems you can BLAST MY LOVE OF THE REDBIRDS THERE
& I will not delete any of those posts !! Now ( & not finally ) anyone can ask me whatever you want & please keep this off
of the SUBTALK discussion board please just e mail me directly & I still might not give you answer you want etc.. But I always
respectful etc... Again ( please excuse any word processing erors here ) Again all of us please RESPECT WEBMASTER MR. DAVID PIRMANN
All of us come from all types of different backgrounds & different situations etc.. We are all shaped by how we grew up & our life
experences as well & so how anyone has been molded etc forms what a person feels how they exprerss thier powerlessness in this
society we are all born in & how they beleive waht the ultimate solution is while walking thru life etc............
Mr. Train Dude you can give me your links to any transit photos you took & rail transit sites you have etc.. & that will be fine!!
.
Yes. Just as we name them after birds, lizards, amphibians, car parts, people, groups, and jobs.
(Cardinals, Diamondbacks, Terrapins, Pistons, Browns, Knickerbockers, and Packers for example)
Hey, what about the NBL's New York Black Yankees? Named for someones color (just like the Redskins) Was that ok? The Kansas City Monarchs...named after foreign leaders?
As long as your team isn't named the 'Nashville Niggers', 'Cleveland Kikes', 'New York Nazis' or 'Seattle Squaws', which are all deplored by a great majority of people, not a small group of apologists and revisionist historians, name your team whatever you'd like.
-Hank
Well I have to say that the Redskin name is offensive. Same thing as naming a team after a their skin color doesnt seem very nice. I think sport team should name their team anything they want as long as it is not offensive to anyone. How many of you would take offensive with a team named the washington whites or california crackers?
washington whites OK with you hank? Dont know what the native americans went through?
There was an Atlanta Crackers
a street near the WEST END MARTA RAIL STATION is a street named peoples named after one of the great baseball players
on the atlanta baseball team named " THE CRACKERS " because thier bats would crack loud when they hit that ball !!
Sure and the redskins were named after a Spanish peanut and the Indians were named after the large Hindu population in Cleveland.
If that's so, then how do you expain that Native American garb the team (Indians) symbol is wearing. I refer specifically to that feather in the headband. He sure doesn't look Hindu to me.
Eric Dale Smith
My cousins resent the term Canucks when used in conversation. It's probably more of a derisive term than 'redshins' is. Because most people think of Canucks as white, no one gets too upset about the term as a team name. Oh well, double standard - what else is new? I think that people who are offended enough should vote with their feet (or in this case, their asses). If people stop going to the games, stop watching the games on TV, stop listening on radio, when revenues fall, the team owners will change the team name. Now how many are willing to put their ass on the line over 'racist' team names. Not many, so give it a rest.
>>>"My cousins resent the term Canucks when used in conversation. It's probably more of a derisive term than 'redshins' is...
Now how many are willing to put their ass on the line over 'racist' team names. Not many, so give it a rest."
Dude: You are suggesting that this term is also offensive (I never heard the term, but I do tend to agree here) and that some folks may not seem to notice very much. However, why do you then continue by saying that we should not oppose any offensive names at all, instead of arguing that they are all offensive and that perhaps none should be used? If you believe a double standard is present and are offended, don't just sit back and let it happen :) - oppose all forms of racism.
Dude, I think we can all agree that racially-offensive things are not good for anyone in any form, including offenses against blacks or Native Americans or whites. :)
-cordially,
turnstiles
I think we should all just lighten up a little. Political Correctness has made us take ourselves way to seriously.
"I think we should all just lighten up a little. Political Correctness has made us take ourselves way to seriously"
As an afterthought let me just add this example. The "Redmen" of St. John are now the "Red 'something or other'". They dropped the men from the name to be politically correct. They forgot that there were no women on the team. Next we'll have PETA going to court to stop teams from using names like Miami Dolphins & Toronto Raptors from using names of animals. After all real dolphins don't sack a quaterback or hit late-out of bounds. Then again, Raptors ate their opponents.
Hey, there are TWO Canadian hockey teams with names that are considered by some to be derogatory to Canadians. The Montreal Canadiens, also known as the 'Habs' (there's the 'H' on the jersey), a Hab being a French Canadian, and the Vancouver Canucks, Canucks being stupid Canadians.
They seem to have no problem describing themselves.
And hey, there's always the Cincinatti Reds. Black, white, red, yellow is not derogatory in my book, merely descriptive.
-Hank
>>> there's always the Cincinatti Reds <<<
Which I believe came from the color of their socks, but was used to differentiate the team from the Boston Red Sox. However, in the 1950s during the McCarthy era, there was serious consideration given to changing the name of the team.
Tom
You are right. The team was originally called the Red Stockings, sometime in the 1930's the "Stockings" were droppend. When McCarthy started the Commie-baiting in the 1950's, the team was called the Redlegs. When the furor died down, they went back to Reds.
The team was expelled from the National Association in 1880 and joined the American Association (in fact, it started it). It returned in 1889 by merging with the NL's Washington Senators.
thank you sir ! i do appreciate your post , thank you ......
>>>Hey, what about the NBL's New York Black Yankees? Named for someones color (just like the Redskins) Was that ok?
Hank: In a time of segregated baseball, when black players could not play for the "real" Yankees, what do you expect? They set up their own "Yankees" team , with an easily identifiable name, and started playing. This is a completely irrelevent example.
-cordially,
turnstiles
>>> As long as your team isn't named the 'Nashville Niggers', 'Cleveland Kikes', 'New York Nazis' or 'Seattle Squaws', which are all deplored by a great majority of people, not a small group of apologists and revisionist historians, name your team whatever you'd like. <<<
The University of Southern California (USC) even names their teams after a consumer product.
OOPS, I forgot, that name is offensive to Catholics. :-)
Tom
I always thought tey were named for the infamous horse. Or maybe people from Troy, NY.
-Hank
Young man, you have LOST YOUR MIND! Keep the perversion out and the TRANSIT in!
Eric Dale Smith
PLEASE NOT THE IS NOT MEANT AS A FLAME IS YOU FELL I TOOK YOU OUT OF CONTEXT SAY SO. ALSO A WAS NOT ON THIS BOARD AT THE TIME THAT THESE COMMENTS WERE MADE.
TD "I resent the use of the term- slander. It implies that I can not back up what I've said."
you have not shown that you can in the past you have challenged other to provide proof and stated what you think proof is. I will hold you to your own standards.
in
post # 134019 you told heypaul what you considered proof
TD "He made claims and then said go to the library of Cogress and look it up. If he wanted to
provide real proof, he should have posted the documentation or at the very least, a link. I guess your standard of
proof depends on whether it's pro-management or anti-management."
Just as your standard depends on whether is't pro or anti salaam? why don't you do what you wanted heypaul to do?
in
post # 133085 you told another poster about documenting his claims.
TD "However, how would you quantify it or prove it? At the operations level,
such occurrences are given the highest priority when it comes to investigation & resolution. Fortunately, you do not have to
document what you say here."
Is that whey you won't document what you say about salaam here?
in P>post # 132103 you challenge a poster to back up what he said.
TD "2nd rate maintenance? In what
way? On what basis to you malign the integrity of a skilled mechanic? On what do you base the charge that the maintenance
was 2nd rate? I challange you to prove your case."
Just as I challange you to prove yours.
in P>post # 132101 you asked hepaul to prove his case.
TD "Again Paul, put up or shut up time. I'm calling your hand. Prove your case of fold your cards"
will you do what you challenged others to do?
TD "No intimidation - just give us your
evidence."
same here
Listen, dim bulb, the things that I have challanged on this site related directly to transit issues. Now if you want to match wits with me, let me check my brains at the door so we start out even. For the record, I have no intention of giving salaam any more of a voice for his racist views than he's already had. Besides, what proof will satisfy you? If you've taken the time to go back 67,000 posts, to see where I've challanged people to prove their cases, I'm sure you came across the posts by at least a dozen other subtalkers who have seen salaam's webpages containing his views on race relations. Perhaps one of them may come foward and confirm what I've said. Go do a little more research. I'm sure you'll find the posts unless Dave has removed them. OR if you post your e-mail address, I'll give you the links privately. One condition though. After you read the garbage, you post a public apology.
TD ", the things that I have challanged on this site related directly to transit issues."
Now you are acting like salaam make an off topic point get called on it the refuse to answer by saying it is off topic.
TD "Now if you want to match wits with me, let me check my brains at the door so we start out even"
Why mush you resort to attacks? I have not called you anything why mush you attack me?
TD "For the record, I have no intention of giving salaam any more of a voice for his racist views than he's already had."
You should have thought of that BEFORE you called him racist. Don't post statement that you can't or don't want to back up.
TD "Besides, what proof will satisfy you?"
A link posted by YOU the alleged web sites.
TD "I'm sure you came across the posts by at least a dozen other subtalkers who have seen salaam's webpages containing his views on race relations.'
There are hundreds of Elvis sightings every yet doesn't mean any of them are accurate. I have looked and have seen no racist post by salaam. Besides I want you to provide the proof not someone else.
TD "Perhaps one of them may come forward and confirm what I've said."
So you are going to make statement refuse to back them up and then have someone else do the dirty work for you.
TD "Go do a little more research. I'm sure you'll find the posts"
you told heypaul that he must provide the proof not tell you to do research. Why is it that with you there in one set of standards for you and one set for everyone else?
TD "OR if you post your e-mail address, I'll give you the links privately. One condition though. After you read the garbage, you post a public apology."
Let me get this straight you make a public attack, When asked to prove it you refuse to do it publicly. You then agree to provide me the links privately but only if a make a public apology. If you give me the link privately I will give you a private apology if you post the links I will post and apology.
Start with this one. Browse some of the others. Then be a man.
http://www.themarcusgarveybbs.com/wwwboard/messages/587.html
train dude,
I apologize for accusing you of slander. The fact that salaam belongs to the nation of Islam the black KKK is alarming. Also alarming is the fact that he seems to want to hide it. The whole black nationalism movement seems strange to me. Why would a group of people want to give back what many blacks and whites gave their lives for makes no sense to me. Unless salaam gives me reason to think otherwise he will no longer have any credibility with me either.
Salaam, I am giving you a chance to defend your self against the above charges. If you fail to do so successfully you will wind up in my killfile.
Thank you for being man enough to admit the error. Let's drom the whole issue now. It has little to do with why people are here.
subtalk is owned by Mr David Pirmann & this wonderful site as well since most of you hide your real names & links to where
you post your political views etc, & you hide behind rocks while you launch all of your irrelevant OFF TOPIC POSTS.......
Remember I said that i do not agree with sport teams using native american names tribes etc & this was as far as I wanted to
drift away from some OFF TOPIC posts & not have to defend myself from posters who HIDE thier real names & websites
& where they go to post host participate in websites chat rooms & spew thier real shit they HIDE on this forum about themselves!!
So as far as cowards who maybe even be members of some KKK what relevance does this have with the narrow focused subject
borad / discussion here of { " RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEMS WORLDWIDE " } ????????? put this in your killfile & smoke it !!!
I would once again like to thank the webmaster Mr David Pirmann for this EXCELLENT WEBSITE !!!@( peace ) SalaamAllah..
You haven't been here long enough. He's said some pretty absurd things, and has been repeatedly called on the carpet for posting posts telling people to 'stop being racists' while the people he supports can also be considered racists.
Then there is his penchant for cutting off the hand that tries to help him out of the sewer.
-Hank
it is good to disagree with agreeable exchanges & not uncivilized ones !! ( thankz ) !!
Salaam: I thought the feud between you and Dude was over. Come on, we don;t want to relive that, do we? Hell, I'm still trying to get from under from my old battles with Stef and Andee. Take care, and I still want to touch base with you.
there is no feud & no i do not want to go back to there !! i did not join subtalk to go to battle however going to the
ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM ( in peris california ) is the west coast BASE for rail transit cars on public display !!
the coney island tour was great last fall thanks to the wonderful MR SOUTH FERRY !!!
you need to get a life of your own !! What I posted is the truth, too bad you are not man enough to handle it !!
but thats why they call you ""train dude" right ???
"What I posted is the truth, too bad you are not man enough to handle it"
Salaam, I finally applaud your honesty. I'm sorry that you actually believe that garbage because you wouldn't associate with me for my color & my religeon. I do applaud your honesty.
& this has what ?? to do with " rail transit systems worldwide " ??? since we at least agree with as you put it " honesty " is it possible now to go back to ON TOPIC subjects ?? I do still beleive in not using native american names on sport teams etc, such as racist unwanted mascots.
cleveland indians - washington redskins - atlanta braves - kansas city chiefs- this is a disgrace & a shame at the very best !!!!!!
thats where the garbage is sir !! ( thank you ) ........
The Cleveland Indians were named to honor a native American pitcher who died during his playing days. That is not offensive. And what do you think about the Boston Celtics who have a drunk Irishman for a mascot is that offensive.
you have got a lot to learn about this subject .......
Tell me what I need to learn.
we can all start by learning how to go back to ON TOPIC SUBJECTS for a change !!!!
You first. I truly believe you are the leader in turning threads off-topic.
What about the Vancouver Canucks, salaam? Or the Boston Celtics. Or the Minnesota Vikings? Or the Senators, or the Yankees. I think that we've simply given political correctness to much credibility. The term - Indian, the term - brave the term - cheif, none of these have a negative connotation (unless you are Perry White). But I'll bet you a year's salary, you give a a native american 10 million dollars to pitch for the braves or quarterback for the redskins and they will love the team name. So let's give it a rest, salaam. This is a really weak argument.
the only weak agruement is yours sir !
Train Dude is pretty sharp. Anybody who'se willing to listen can learn a lot about transit from him. I know I have.
Eric Dale Smith
But Train Dude, my buddy, does have one bad blind spot. He doesn't have a clue how great the Sea Beach is, and refuses to accept my opinion on the matter.
Fred, I tried several times over the past few months.Unfortunately, I fall asleep during each ride.
Then why did you use the subject line you did? I think mine is more accurate.
Curious that you should put in the same title SeaBeach and excrement. The only time I saw the latter (human) in the subway was in summer 1969, on a pink seat of an R27/30 N Slow Beach, on the open cut to Coney Island.
Now you guys are getting me very hot under the collar and getting very personal to boot. This looks the start of a war. Apologize quickly.
Fred, I merely witnessed this and reported it in my post. This is nothing personal. But it is what I saw. I enjoy our friendly bouts, which I know are all in fun, from one subway buff to another. Let's keep it that way.
--Harry
I, too was only kidding. But being outnumbered I'm getting a siege mentality. Read the post about the four gangs--Brighton, Culver, West End and Sea Beach that duked it out. The Sea Beach gang got wiped out first because it had only one member---me. No backup. So I'm fighting a rear guard action all the time.
LOL
I must agree with Train Dude on this one. The Sea Beach Line is a real snooze inducer even for the most zealot foamer (or foamette).
Not enough interesting ROW for me, but it is a "distant cousin" of the Brighton, so I can't bad mouth it TOO MUCH.
BMTman
Ah, but for the glory days of the NX, when the R-27/30s were allowed to run wild and free through the dawn and dusk hours of southwest Brooklyn...
Yes BMTman, the Mighty Sea Beach line is only for a chosen few who desire a laid back approach to traveling. Unlike that upstart Brighton Line whose straphangers are in a big rush to fly down the express in rolling stock with slanted ends. Ah yes, many a time I recall heading down the Sea Beach on that sleepy line nodding off only to awake just in time to pass Coney Island yard.
YAWNNNN.........scuze me, gotta cop some Z's !
Bill "Newkirk"
Uh, there was this thing called "NX" which to'e up Brighton service. So, unless your a fan about Culver or West End, you can't be dissing the Sea Beach. The Culver meanwhile Affords great views seen only at 2 other places:
1.) Manhattan Bridge
2.) Williamsburg Bridge.
J trainloco,
Not really dissing the Slow Beach. Just having some fun is anticipation of Sea Beach Fred's upcoming visit. Maybe we'll commission some graffitti artists to do a mural near New Utrecht Ave with the message:
WELCOME FROM YOUR LONG JOURNEY O HOLY MAN FROM ARCADIA !!!
Bill "Newirk"
Just joking!
Hey Bill I think I would like that. At least someone would know for sure that I'm even in town. Of course, I'll be wearing by Sea Beach N shirt so anyone can pick me out of the crowd.
Ditto here. He set me straight once and for all on R-10 compatibility with the rest of the SMEE fleet.
Oh, that's another whole can of worms, as you can often see on the other message board I frequent: Termite Terrace. The Time-Warner/Turner conglomerate has cut out nearly every Indian, Chinese and other reference from the Looney Tunes, MGM cartoons, etc., yet Ted Turner owns the Braves, and doesn't change that. Everyone on that board has ripped this double-standard.
Too few American's take a trip out of this country. The World is a wonderful place to visit, and if you can catch a trolley, subway or long haul train their, so much the better. Then, when you return you feel a little better about where you live.
I have a Italian friend here who's over 70 & says he would rather visit the Grand Cannon then Rome ... I don't understand.
Mr t__:^)
I have a Italian friend here who's over 70 & says he would rather visit the Grand Cannon then Rome ... I don't understand.
Maybe he's never been to the Grand Canyon?
Maybe he prefers natural beauty instead of man-made?
Sure, not liking foreign lands is bad, but so is belittling the value of American landmarks in the face of European ones. If he said he would rather visit Rome than the Grand Canyon, would you even see a problem?
AMEN to that, Once there was a time where MCs and Break Dancers And Graffiti Writers wew thought of as just any other street thug dancing, rhyming, painting for a nickel, an rap was just a fad, Now look at the fad today, the once underground is mainstream, HA, even though I dsiklike rap today, i prefer old school rap, still look at where this whole hip hop mess is right now, Just like everything, it needed a chance, and prooved itself, Look at some of these old graffiti qriters, they became proffessional artists, clothes designers, They made a name for themselves, and most ofthem started out painting steel, May god bless the unignorant
I for one have never equated Break Dancing, Hip Hop or Rap music with graffitti.
Hip Hop, Rap and the art forms accompanying them are art forms and forms of creative expression. Graffitti writing is a form of violating public and private property rights, destruction of property, and ignorant and disrespectful conduct.
I think it's wonderful that ex-graffitti writers gravitated to legitimate forms of expression and found success. May they find continued happiness in it. It does not excuse anyone from trashing trains.
check Bus Talk and the NYCT Transit Committee Agenda March 2001
OK: this is what it says: shuttle from Queensbridge to Bway Lafayette, and another shuttle from Broadway Lafayette to Grand! Now this is a TA plan if I've ever saw one {no offense to them}
IIRC they use a single-track shuttle between Broadway-Lafayette and Grand because there are no switches in the vicinity of Grand St.
Back in the day they were able to pull off 6 TPH with a single shuttle from 57/6 to Grand. What, they get stupider over the years?
I still can't understand why the W will be a shuttle to 36th on the weekends. If there are just as many weekend Q's as the D, there will be less service to Brooklyn than currently. The W should run to 57-7th on weekends, there's just no reason it shouldn't.
Aw, what are you complaining about? My Sea Beach is still in the damn Montague Tunnel in the bowels of lower Manhattan, and you worry about something small like that. Worry about something big like getting my Sea Beach back up on the Manny B before I leave this world. The rate it's going I'll be long gone before the SB sees the bridge.
Or the MTA should run the N over the bridge on weekends instead of the W. Doesn't the MTA just love to put down the N??
For once there's a chance of having some N bridge service but no, the MTA relegates it to Montague and the lower Manhattan crawl.
If I were in charge we'd be running the M through to Bay Parkway and to ease congestion in the Montague tunnel some N trains would travel over the bridge. Actually the MTA may not want to run the W to 57th for a reason, they'd have to terminate there and block any weekend reroutes via 63rd street. The Q will though, unless it changes ends at the unused 63/Lex Platform so it won't tie up the tunnels.
If I were the MTA, this would be the plan
W:Weekdays-Coney Island - Astoria (express on middle track in Astoria, peak direction), Broadway express, bridge and Dekalb bypass, 4th ave express.
Q: Same as current plan, but Slant R40 on express (diamond runs)
N:Some diamond N trains would run peak direction only via bridge to alleviate congestion in tunnel. On weekends, N will run via bridge. It may result in somewhat less lower Manhattan service but that area is not busy on weekends and could handle it.
M:Weekday service to Bay Parkway from morning till 10pm at night. Local, all stops. This will encourage B riders who use Grand to use the M at nearby under-used Bowery station.
Shuttles would be same as planned.
So the main changes I'd make is giving the N some bridge service on peak hours, and having run completely on the bridge on weekends.
And making the M run to Bay Parkway on weekdays for a good alternative
for Grand st riders to the nearby Bowery station.
There's no reason that the N shouldn't get at least some bridge service! :-)
Well thank you Mr Q7. We now need a few more of these supporters so the MTA can see the light and put my train back on the bridge where it belongs.
>>Actually the MTA may not want to run the W to 57th for a reason, they'd have to terminate there and block any weekend reroutes via 63rd street.<<
Remember, 1 month after the flip, service to Queens Plaza is supposed to begin. Thus, F trains will be running on 63rd. The TA won't really be doing any construction re-routes during this time.
If I were the MTA, this would be the plan
W:Weekdays-Coney Island - Astoria (express on middle track in Astoria, peak direction), Broadway express, bridge and Dekalb bypass, 4th ave express.
Q: Same as current plan, but Slant R40 on express (diamond runs)
N:Some diamond N trains would run peak direction only via bridge to alleviate congestion in tunnel. On weekends, N will run via bridge. It may result in somewhat less lower Manhattan service but that area is not busy on weekends and could handle it.
M:Weekday service to Bay Parkway from morning till 10pm at night. Local, all stops. This will encourage B riders who use Grand to use the M at nearby under-used Bowery station.
Shuttles would be same as planned.
Well, I've got an even better idea Q7.
W: Weekdays 6am-8:30 pm. Coney Isle.-Astoria. Via express.
Evenings & Weekends to 57/7th
Uses all 4th av, Broadway and Astoria Express tracks, DeKalb Bypass
Q: ONLY Brighton Express. Cars from the Q local (R40's) will be sent to the Q exp, M and W lines for extra service (read on). Q7, you'll have hippos on the Q, but you'll also have '40s.
M: Shifted to Brighton Local. Runs from 6am-10pm, all local stops.
N: Express over the Manhattan Bridge all times (Except nights). Some N runs will be run via Montague rush hours, but switch to the express at canal.
This way, N riders get express bridge service, Bowery riders get M service to Bklyn, and MORE of it, and You (Q7) get some r40's on the Q express.
Sounds like a good plan! Too bad the MTA isn't as intelligent.
How about You,Trainloco and I go over to MTA headquarters and best some sense into those baboons who run the place. It couldn't hurt anything to try. Why those guys can't see the forest from the trees is beyond me. Well hope springs eternal.
>>How about You,Trainloco and I go over to MTA headquarters and best some sense into those baboons who run the place. It couldn't hurt anything to try. Why those guys can't see the forest from the trees is beyond me. Well hope springs eternal.<<
I doubt that would work. Here's why i say that:
When Reuter (TA pres.) was asked about making more M service, he replied:
That line is running at full capacity.
Now either Reuter is the biggest moron in the TA, or he just doesn't give a shit about riders. To sit here and lie about something is simply unnaceptable. Personally, I wouldn't mind kicking his ass at the same time I 'drop bowls' on that racist bus driver bastard mentioned here. Hell, Why don't I kick his ass outta office and let you become TA president Fred? That sounds like a good idea. Then maybe BMT south will return to having respectable service, instead of that cow manure of a service plan they have in place right now!
P.S.- The title of this post sounds like some sort of TA spy agency, scoping out the BMT south and Bronx IRT as they prepare for WAR!! LOL
"That line is running at full capacity"
While the response might have been inadequate, perhaps you are misunderstanding it. Full capacity can mean several things:
Full capacity can mean that the line can handle no additional service. Keep in mind that the line does share trackage with the B, R, N, J & Z. Perhaps more M trains might slow service on other lines to unacceptible levels.
Full capacity can mean that all of the equipment currently available for service is in use. There are no more cars to be had. This is clearly true considering the shortage of equipment throughout the B division.
Larry Reuter is pretty savy when it comes to transit issues as evidenced by the increase in all performance indicators over the past several years. Perhaps he assumed (incorrectly) that the audience could look beyond the obvious.
>>Full capacity can mean that the line can handle no additional service. Keep in mind that the line does share trackage with the B, R, N, J & Z. Perhaps more M trains might slow service on other lines to unacceptible levels.<<
Train Dude, are you crazy? If the M can run through those areas Rush Hours, then it can run through there middays, as it did before the manhattan bridge re-routes of 1995. It certainly wouldn't slow service on the B line, or the 4th av local.
>>Full capacity can mean that all of the equipment currently available for service is in use. There are no more cars to be had. This is clearly true considering the shortage of equipment throughout the B division.<<
What happens to the cars used on the M rush hours? They simply sit layed up, waiting for the evening rush. SOME of them could be used to restore M service during middays to 9th av. especially since Bowery riders really want the Through M service. Lack of cars is obviously not a problem here.
>>Larry Reuter is pretty savy when it comes to transit issues as evidenced by the increase in all performance indicators over the past several years. Perhaps he assumed (incorrectly) that the audience could look beyond the obvious.<<
Lawrence Reuter is also pretty savy when it comes to ignoring the riders. Quite often, he has merely dismissed riders pleas for service, including N/R service, the whole G train fiasco and that M to bklyn problem stated in this post. Reuter might be able to save costs for the TA, but he doesn't seem to care about what riders think. And, if he assumed that we could look beyond the obvious, then he assumed that we could see the he didn't give a damn about Grand St. riders.
"Train Dude, are you crazy?" Perhaps so grasshopper. After all I'm trying to explain the realities of running a railroad to a person who thinking is obviously based on his experiences in Lionelville.
"What happens to the cars used on the M rush hours?" What the hell do you think happens to these trains? We lay them up so we can hold parties in them. Of course there are also a few that drop out so cars due for inspection can be drilled out. Of course some trains fall out so mechanical defects can be corrected or bad order cars can be replaced. Then, just for fun, we may clean a train or two - if the mood hits us. In the real world, we usually are lucky to get 50% of the cars we call off the road, into the yard.
"Lawrence Reuter is also pretty savy when it comes to ignoring the riders." Larry Reuter serves at the pleasure of the MTA Board, hence, the governor. If he angered the riders to the extent that you seem to be, he'd be out of a job - a job he does quite well. The fact is that most people have little experience in running a railroad. Their only experience is - as I've said before - from playing with electric trains. It's quite obvious that you really don't understand the complexities nor are you interested in anything but your uninformed ideas.
The M was cut back mid days because of lack of ridership. And don't threaten people like Larry Reuter bodily harm on the internet. You could get into a big legal problem.
Um, the M runs to Brooklyn rush hours.
If there's enough track capacity and there are enough cars for rush hour service, how could there possibly not be enough at other times? Trains and tracks don't go on vacation middays; either they're in use or they're idle. In this case, they're idle but they would be more useful in use.
West End needs their M. If it wasn't needed it never would've left Brighton and thereby the D never would have left Culver.
Then how did they run that S service from Grand to 57/6 as you can see in the 1987 map the last time this happened?
It single tracked for two stations, and had large headways as a result. From what I heard, it wasn't used by that many people other than homeless. But now, with the 3 63rd. St. stations open, they will need a smaller headway, and once the connection opens, they definitely won't be able to single track the like that.
I would recommend instead of having so many shuttles via 6 Ave, let's extend B and D service to Metropolitan Avenue via Williamsburg Bridge.
Coney Island yard have enough R40's (R32's) to run on B and D from Bronx/Uptown to Metropolitan.
Q will be served by R68/R68A.
M will run from Brooklyn to Chambers rush hours only.
Shuttle bus can run from Grand St. station to any station in China Town.
Extend B and D? Do you think the Williamsburg bridge and the Broadway EL can handle 4 lines, and 600 foot trains? Or Myrtle interlocking to switch around 4 lines?? I can tell you have little understanding of the infastructure of the BMT Eastern Division.
Do some research and you will see your idea can never be implemented.
I wrote to assign R40's to B & D. Interval between trains 6 to 8 mins.
I think Broadway El. will handle it. And no M to Metropolitan.
Stations on the Eastern Division are about 500' long. You can't fit a full length B or D there.
better:
There was an idea suggested by Joseph Korman {I'm not sure exactly so bear with me} as follows:
B: regular Bedford Pk to W 4th. Transfer to worth st to WTC
D: regular 205th to Bway-Lafayette, goes through Rutgers connects at Jay to the Fulton St line, goes exp or local, which ever is wanted to Rockaway Pk, I believe
J/Z: extended past Broad to Brooklyn, Z runs Brighton with Q, J runs 4th Ave in place of M
M: 6th Ave service via Chyrstie to 57/6
My opinion:
If we had the cars.
Yesterday afternoon there was a "medical emergency" on the Boston MBTA Red Line at South Station, which tied up service for over six hours. Here's the article from the Boston Globe.
As part of the service diversion, trains ran from Alewife to Park Street, and changed ends on the southbound track for the return to Alewife. The Bombardier 1800-series cars' LCD end and side signs were correctly set to "Park Street." (Prior to yesterday, I've never seen these signs say anything other than "Alewife," "Ashmont," or "Braintree." Coincidently, earlier in the day, I saw an 1800-series train doing a battery run (i.e. station bypass to reduce bunching and close a service gap) northbound going through Kendall/MIT. It was smartly signed as "Harvard Express."
Six hours??? I was on the red line during a delay "for a heart attack at the next station" (Harvard) during rush hour once, but what could stop the T for 6 hours?
This was no heart attack. It was a "person under the train." The train was stopped splitting the breaker causing power to be shut off in two different sections. Initially power was out from JFK to Kendall. The Power Dept. rerouted by breaking and joining to get power to the Park to Kendall section. The T ran at least 1 commuter rail shuttle to Braintree where people could board a northbound Red Line train to JFK and switch to the Ashmont side. The bus shuttles were faster.
It's too bad that the new commuter rail platforms at JFK were not in service yet as that would have made an excellant alternative from South Station.
Of course, he doesn't mention what alternative he has in mind. The article does say,however, that the MTA may actually consider increasing M service to the nearby Chambers St. station as a possibility. In today's Daily News:
Rudy Rips Grand St. 3-Yr. Subway Bypass
The jerk. Half the Manny B has been out for his entire administation, and he's posturing now?
Isn't 15 years of repairs enough. Block traffic access to the bridge for one day and watch the DOT take notice. They're the ones that can't manage to get the bridge fixed in any reasonable time. I gotta believe they could have built a new bridge in 1/2 the time, and I'm being generous.
[The jerk. Half the Manny B has been out for his entire administation, and he's posturing now?]
Melville's Law of Loose and Fast Fish, I think. If it's floating free, it's up for grabs, but once someone has something they scream if you try to take it away from them. No one protests about the Manhattan Bridge because it's already out -- but decrease service to one station and all hell breaks loose.
(Melville's Law of Loose and Fast Fish, I think. If it's floating free, it's up for grabs, but once someone has something they scream if you try to take it away from them. No one protests about the
Manhattan Bridge because it's already out -- but decrease service to one station and all hell breaks loose.)
Where were these assholes when the MTA's proposal to build the Rutgers/DeKalb connector sank out of sight after barely surfacing? It wouldn't have solved the Grand Street problem, but would have made things better otherwise. All this, and in 20 years the bridge will be shaking apart again and they'll start over -- if they have the money. Money for real needs in Brooklyn is hard to come by.
Reminds me of that e-mail I sent to Rudy many years ago, complaining about the bridge problem and its effect on Brooklyn. After a long pause, one of his deputies wrote back saying it was the MTA's problem. Or the time I asked Reuter and his deputy, when they spoke at City Planning, about the bridge. They said it was the City's problem.
[Reminds me of that e-mail I sent to Rudy many years ago, complaining about the bridge problem and its effect on Brooklyn. After a long pause, one of his deputies wrote back saying it was the MTA's problem. Or the time I asked Reuter and his deputy, when they spoke at City Planning, about the bridge. They said it was the City's problem.]
I just love bureacracy! But I can't understand why Giuliani or anyone else would ignore something like the Manhattan Bridge. If something like that happened under my watch, I'd fire everybody within shouting distance. But then, that's probably why I'm not Mayor. And in truth the bridge *is* being patched under Giuliani's watch; it was his predecessors who left it to rot. Now it's the MTA's turn to build a long-term replacement. Maybe when they fix the fire damage on the F and replace all the shunt coils? I'm not holding my breath . . .
The shunt coils were never removed. They were DISCONNECTED. I don't even know if there are specific coils that do this because I have no idea how a field can be shunted or what field is being shunted (that's an example of two words I understand alone, but not together).
[The shunt coils were never removed. They were DISCONNECTED. I don't even know if there are specific coils that do this because I have no idea how a field can be shunted or what field is being shunted (that's an example of two words I understand alone, but not together).]
There's a fairly good explanation at http://www.apprep.com/motors_dc.htm
Only tells me what I already know, doesn't tell me what field shunting is.
"Field shunting" can mean either of two things depending on how a motor is designed - it can mean that the field is placed in "parallel/parallel" where two field windings are connected in parallel rather than in series, or similarly a winding has a "tap" somewhere near the middle. In effect, a shunt would "short out" part of the winding, allowing more current to flow through the remaining section than would flow through the entire length.
Either way it's described, it's pretty much the same thing - flowing MORE current and therefore a stronger magnetic field and therefore faster ... but the specifics depend on how the field coil is wound and whether there are two windings in parallel or half a winding bypassed. I recall vaguely most subway trucks having six wires rather than four but I'm real hazy on that since it's been so long. Hopefully someone else here has better details than I do but as far as the "motor" part of field shunting, that's how it's done - it's done in other motor applications with DC as well. You can play with the field windings for trickery a whole lot easier than with the rotor or "commutator" windings ...
It’s difficult to understand just how disingenuous this Mayor can be.
I don’t understand how he can stand there and complain, when it’s the City that’s in charge of the bridge repairs. Didn’t they look at the track map and work out that this would, by necessity, turn Grand Street into a terminus?!
Why isn’t Rudy explaining how he can shorten the time it will take to make the repairs so that the Manny B is working 100%?
Wow! Those are big solid brass clangers. And he wants to be Governor? Wow. I've heard of pander bears before. Tell ya what, Rudy ... don't close the bridge, the trains will run on time until one falls in the water. Sheesh.
And yes, for a man who loves to pile them all into the reichsbunker for their routine whippings (ouch! says the Port Authority) and misses this one? Wowsers kids ... I'M impressed.
Rudy can go to bleeding hell! its not like he cares anyway. the 3 year suspension is for the better of the good.
The Broadway side of the CITY-OWNED bridge has been closed for his entire tenure, not that he'll collect tolls from motorists to fix the bridge.
Hey, some of the new mayoral hopefuls voiced support for the idea of taking the tolls off all the other bridges, so they're no better.
That said, you'd think Rudy was in campaign mode for a third term (or a primary run against Pataki in 2002) by his stupid statements in the News' story. Even if he's too busy to care about subway routings and bridge work, surely someone in the mayor's office had to know this closure was planned for a long time by the DOT.
And speaking of clueless, the writer of the News' story makes it sound like Grand Street is the only subway stop in Chinatown, and the whole area will be without direct service from Brooklyn come July. I'd be willing to bet when the changeover comes, more people will find the east end (Center Street) exit at Canal on the Q/W turns out to be more convienent to where they work than Grand Street is right now. It's just that the station has been closed for so long most people have either forgotten where it exactly is or never lived in NYC when it was opened.
I have some sad news for all #6 train riders: R62A cars #1661-1670 have officially left the Pelham and have started running on the 1/9 line.
Okay, maybe that's not sad news, but it is something to wake you guys up a little this morning. Rise and shine! Wake up and smell the subway tunnel! just joking.
Anyway, all of the cars had either a #1 or a blank space, leaving absolutely NO traces of it being on the Pelham line. Well, at least they are back where they started when they came out.
CWalNYC
As I was standing on a Manhattan-bound <7> leaving Queesboro Plaza, I could have SWORN I saw an R62-type car leaving QBP the other way, and it looked like a red rollsign. It was only the quickest glimpse, and I suppose it could have been an R68 on the N.
:-) Andrew
I would bet money you saw a train of R-68s wrong-railing up the ramp to head back to Ditmars. This morning around 9:20 at QBP, my Manhattan-bound 'N' train was emptied of passengers by Control Center. The C/R announced that the train was going back to Astoria. (I took the next Manhattan-bound '7', which arrived almost immediately.)
Seeing any train "go the other way" on either platform is highly unusual at QBP, unless there's a G.O. Traffic moves in the same direction on both plats. I wonder what the reason was for taking a train OOS 6 stops after beginning its run and sending it backwards to start over. Something really drastic must have happened, or else someone was in a time-warp and thought the Astoria line was running shuttles again.
I was a little ways out from the station, about halfway to Couthouse Square, and I saw it on the upper level of QBP.
:-) Andrew
I would bet money you saw a train of R-68s wrong-railing up the ramp to head back to Ditmars. This morning around 9:20 at QBP, my Manhattan-bound 'N' train was emptied of passengers by Control Center. The C/R announced that the train was going back to Astoria. (I took the next Manhattan-bound '7', which arrived almost immediately.)
Seeing any train "go the other way" on either platform is highly unusual at QBP, unless there's a G.O. Traffic moves in the same direction on both plats. I wonder what the reason was for taking a train OOS 6 stops after beginning its run and sending it backwards to start over. Something really drastic must have happened, or else someone was in a time-warp and thought the Astoria Line was running shuttles again.
>>Something really drastic must have happened, or else someone was in a time-warp and thought the Astoria Line was running shuttles again.<<
Well, today at whitehall, an N train experienced some type of problem, holding up northbound service for roughly 10mins. Maybe that N was heading back to Astoria to help reduce the gap caused by that trains delays (Note: R train directly behind that N used the center track at whitehall.
A small fire in an auxiliary room was extinguished immediately upon discovery at 10:13 Tuesday morning; fire dept was called and shut down the station. Trains went through without stopping. Story in Washington Post.
At least it wasn't like the one at Farragut West a few years ago.
Imagine that scenario at Metro Center during rush hour!!!
Also, Metro Sales office closed until 730 tomorrow due to damage.
Can you explain about that Farragut West fire? I don't recall it.
As promised here is the station info on the fire:
On ther Downtown side the 24 hour booth is closed and the underpass is boarded up and there is orange construction fencing on the inside of the turnstiles which are all closed (showing red(. The part-time booth is open 24 hours for now.
On the Uptown side, the 24 hour booth is open normal hoursa nd the part-time booth is still open part-time (no change in length it is opened.) The underpass (both entrances on the uptown side) is boarded up. The WTC has a security checkpoint near the downtown side's 24 hour booth(which is closed until the entrance reopens.)
To access the uptown trains you must enter from the street.
I was hoping to find an official bulletin but so far I have not seen an official bulletin. If I see a bulletin I will post additional update info.
Isn't there a part-time underpass from the south end of the WTC concourse to the part-time subway entrance in 1 Liberty Plaza?
yes. it is open 6am to 6 or 8 pm
But it’s still not nearly as convenient for those of us who take the PATH. Fighting the crowds from the LIRR to get from the IRT into NJT’s piece of Penn Station almost looks attractive…
I tried to see what the damage was, how it was caused, etc, etc, but everything has been very effectively boarded up so you can’t see how bad it is. About the only damage you can see is a very bowed window of one of the stainless steel doors from the WTC concourse.
Needless to say that my wife had to drag me to the airport to get me out of London. Had a wonderful time and look forward to next year's visit. It's possible that I'll go back in August for a week, but the jury's out on that one.
As far as the trip goes:
The Glasgow subway was a rather interesting little system. It has 15 stops with the system shaped in a circle. Trains run in each direction on the "Inner and Outer Circles". The fare is a flat 80p which is pretty cheap. Funny thing is that on Sundays, the system shuts down at 6 pm. So much for going out clubbing eh? I took a few pics of the system. The pics come back on Thursday and I promised them to Dave so that all of you may see them.
Two did you knows:
Did you know that the Glasgow Underground was closed for modernization from 1977 to 1980? The whole line was dug up from the street and completely rebuilt. Imagine that happening on Lexington Avenue. HA!
Also did you know that from the opening in 1896 to 1996, no record has been found of a passenger on board a train being killed. It's possible that that record may still stand to this day.
I purchased a great book on the history of the Glasgow Underground called "Circles Under the Clyde". If you can pick up a copy then do so. It's a great read.
The Paris trains have really gone to pot. There wasn't one car that I was on that didn't have moderate to heavy paint and scratch graffiti on it. On some of the RER trains, they ran in service with the entire outside of the train covered in spray paint. And that's not even including the wonderful urine smells. I've said it once and I'll say it again, Paris is nothing but New York with French people (and nicer buildings). Funny, in Europe they call scratchitti "Dutch graffiti". Gee, I wonder where this scourge originated? BTW, the French TGV trains don't have this problem.
Weirdest thing I saw in London: A car with New York license plates.
Anyway, that's all that I can think of right now. It's time to go back to New York subway issues (pardon me while I get the barf bag).
I remember paying 6d (=2-1/2p) in 1966 or so to ride the Cathcart Circle, as my Glaswegian grandmother called the Glasgow subway. I found it fascinating, even though it is just two circles.
You’re lucky that the subway even runs on Sundays these days, Scotland used to have some of the most strict blue laws in GB: no alcohol on Sundays at all! (Made up for the Saturday nights, especially after a Rangers/Celtic match where the fans would slug it out down Sauchiehall Street after a few pints).
I must get back to Glasgow. The grimy, industrial city of my youth is no more–and I would like to ride the circle again!
Definitely the Glasgow subway? "Cathcart circle" is the name given to a short out and back Glasgow suburban service.
My biggest regret in Scotland was not seeing the Glasgow subway. My uncle/host (18 y/o; I was 21 then) said "It doesn't go anywhere, just round and round." It did suck having to catch the last commuter train at 00:30h. Oh, and in Istanbul, one of my profs rode in a VW bug convertible with DC plates. How he got it there, or why, I have no idea. He wasn't even American.
Paris has come a long way down in 2 1/2 years since I've been there. Don't remember any graffitti on the Metro at all. Don't remember grafitti on Dutch trains but it seemed almost every public-infrastructure type thing was covered with it in Holland, bridge abutments for example. I changed trains at Hamburg, Germany and what commuter trains I saw looked like the NYC Subway I remember of the 70's. Where did spray-paint graffitti originate? My first experience with it was in Philadelphia in l97l [I was still a New Yorker then] and a few months later it started in New York.
It became a scourge there not much later.
I saw an AMC Pacer, of all things, at St. Gotthard Pass in the Swiss Alps in 1977.
I remember that I asked when was the last time that a R36ML ran on the #7 line & response was in 1991 for only 6 weeks. What was the need for R36ML on #7 line @ that time? Also, I heard for a temporaily time between 1991-1994 some R33ML were running on the #7 line. Why?
The answer is because the GE R 36s went out for rebuild. the ML R 36s on the 7 line are here to stay. hence the corona stickers appearing on them. as the 6 line recieves more R 142As the remaining R 36s will come home where they belong. As for the pelham R 29s, oh well nice knowing them.
It's official. I saw the work programs this afternoon. Some notes:
The B and D as you well know operate between uptown and 34 St.
Two shuttles will operate. One between Grand St and Broadway-Lafayette. The other will run between 21 St-Queensbridge and Broadway-Lafayette where it will discharge passengers and will turn around at 2nd Avenue on the F.
The G still runs to Forest Hills (for now) and there will be no V train (again, for now).
The work program didn't specify whether the N is going express or not, but after looking at the run times for the new pick which look about the same as the current times, the N will run local (IMO).
The new W train will operate between Stillwell Avenue and Astoria between 6 am and 9 pm. From 9 pm to Midnight it will terminate at 57 St-7 Av. Nights it will run as a shuttle to 36th Street as is currently the case on the B line. Weekends, the W will only operate as a shuttle between Stillwell Avenue and Pacific Street.
The two Q services will be put into effect. The Q express will operate between Brighton Beach and 57 St-7 Av Monday-Friday 6 am to 9 pm. The Q local will operate between Stillwell Avenue and 57 St-7 Av and will operate 24 hours.
One crew note: the B has mostly 3 and 4 round-trippers on the work programs. But there is one job B-214 that starts out of 34 St-6 Av at 648 am that makes five trips! One to Bedford Park and four to 145 St. And it only pays 20 minutes overtime. Yikes! Can someone say "blood money"?
The N and R will operate via the Tunnel.
The W and Q will operate via the Bridge.
Thanks for the update! So it's pretty much carved in stone, at least until 63st opens up. Will they do like the Daily News says and run more (as in off-peak) south Brooklyn M service (I had to read between the lines to figure out what they meant)? that would seem to me to be a good compromise. Bowery is a short distance from Grand, it would enable at least West End and 4th ave riders to keep their one-seat ride to that general area.
>>Will they do like the Daily News says and run more (as in off-peak) south Brooklyn M service (I had to read between the lines to figure out what they meant)? that would seem to me to be a good compromise. Bowery is a short distance from Grand, it would enable at least West End and 4th ave riders to keep their one-seat ride to that general area.<<
People want not only more south Bklyn service, but they want it 24/7. Reuter was on TV today, and his words (somewhat rushed) were: That line is already at full capacity. We'll see.
Evidently, Reuter doesn't care, And quite frankly, I think he sucks as a TA pres.
Huh? The M already is extended to Brooklyn rush hours. He's saying it can't be extended at other times because the tracks are at capacity? How are the tracks at capacity only outside rush hours?
This is the NYCTA we are talking about. Anything is possible.
Zman, the weekend (W) will turn at Pacific? I thought the Orders had it turning at 57/7 BMT during the Weekend daytime hours.
The Q will turn at 57/7. But the weekend W will 100% end at Pacific.
zman, you overlooked one important thing that I saw and it made me do the dance of joy! :-)
The work programs you saw for the B are for daily jobs only. Therefore that means THERE WILL BE NO B SERVICE ALONG CPW OVER THE WEEKENDS!!!!
WHOOO-HOOO!!!!!
It makes sense, considering its route is already covered by the C and D.
The D will run local weekends on CPW?
I think he means combined. Take the C to the D. Like was done when it went to Queensbridge.
The D should never have any period of time where it must use the local tracks under normal conditions. It is the only line which runs express 24/7.
The "2" is a local run also 24/7?
No, it's express except nights. Same with the 4, the E and F, the A, and probably a few others I'm forgetting.
And no, it's not stupid to do that, because if they schedule it right there will be 10 minute headways at most major Manhattan stations. Lex ave local stops will get a 6 every 20 minutes and a 4 every 20 minutes, thus a train every 10 minutes. Same with 20 minute E and Fs for 5th ave through Briarwood providing 10 minute service*. Same with 20 minute A ** and 20 minute Es providing 8th ave local service. Same with 20 minute 1 and 20 minute 2 providing 7th ave local service. In all these examples there are express trains running local even though local trains run as well, to keep people moving.
Back to the D running express at night, I've no clue why they do this along CPW, since the A runs every 20 and the D runs every 20, why not provide 10 minute local service for those stops? It's understandable for 6th ave since it would be an awkward move to get bridge trains to hit 23rd and 14th.
* - Nighttime Queens Blvd local service is better than weekend service at certain times.
** - Since all overnight As go to the Rockaways, and half the daytime As go there, the Rockaway line gets the same number of TPH at all times except rush hours.
>>Back to the D running express at night, I've no clue why they do this along CPW, since the A runs every 20 and the D runs every 20, why not provide 10 minute local service for those stops?<<
They don't do this, because there isn't a great demand for CPW service late nights. Keep in mind that the broadway IRT is never more than 4 blocks away. Also, while that 10 minute plan would work quite nicely for CPW, can you really schedule trains that closely when both lines have arteries that stretch far, far away?
What I mean by that is:
F and E can be scheduled with precision because the E begins at WTC, not really that far from the merge with the F.
6 can be held at Brooklyn Bridge. 1 at Chambers. But, you really can't time the A and D, especially when one comes from far Rockaway and the other from Coney Isle.
That is true... But having trains hit all the local stops along CPW gives the guy who just missed his train less platform-dwelling time (less chance of attack in station). And, that long stretch of time from 125 to 59 can give any attacker a perfect 10 minute window to do what he wishes to a trapped victim (75' cars on D). Nobody really rides the D too much at night anyway...
Plus the A starts at 207 and the D at 205. I believe running times to 145 are only slightly longer for the D than the A, they could have the downtown trains run at the 10 minute intervals. All the examples you cited only provide for one direction synchronization (Come on, 242 vs 241 on downtown 7th ave, Pelham Bay Pk vs Woodlawn?). In any event, even in the daytime trains are held for spacing for as long as 5 minutes mid route, same could be done at 145 or 59 (though it may leave a terminal without a train for a certain headway).
"And, that long stretch of time from 125 to 59 can give any attacker a perfect 10 minute window to do what he wishes to a trapped victim (75' cars on D). Nobody really rides the D too much at night anyway..."
The ride from 59th St to 125th Street is 7 minutes+ so muggers must work a little faster than you think. I would also suggest that you ride the D at night. Try at 2AM or 4AM. You'll almost always get a seat. To say nobody rides the D at night is totally incorrect.
As a rookie in the summer of 1982, I worked midnites on the D. It was always busy. Now, almost 20 years later, I can safely say that it's busier. The D line is never put to bed.
Ah well, I shouldn't have assumed... I was going on what my cousin in the Bronx had told me, but then again he is a politician (David Rosado) so how could he possibly know what the subway is like?
IMHO at night you could time trains quite precisely. There are no surprises, like door holding.
Arti
Don't you think that it's odd that the Rockaway A service runs more often at 3 am than at 2 pm? Daytime A's run every 24 minutes, midnight A's run every 20.
No, no, no. Sorry for the confusion. The B's route is covered by the D between 34th and 59th, and again in the Bronx. The C duplicates the B between 59th and 145th. The D still runs express along CPW, FWIW.
The 2 makes all local stops in Manhattan during the late hours.
Hey Road Dogg, I see that you've been forgetting to take your medication again. LOL.
Needless to say that you're looking at working the A during the week and the C on weekends?
I don't see why the 21st St. to Bway-Laf shuttle has to turn at Second Ave. It can easily come in on 3 track @ Bway_Laf, change ends, and then cross from 3 to 4. The Grand St. shuttle can operate on 4 track.
Exactly. Why can't they just run the Queensbridge shuttle to Grand and make it all one? Also, how do they plan on labelling both shuttles, one as a V? I wouldn't do that, because who knows what will happen when the V becomes full length, everybody goes nuts!
In one of the TA presentations, the Grand St shuttle was a gray S, and the 21-Queensbridge shuttle was an orange S. It really sounds like they're asking for trouble, especially since "Q" and "W" is supposedly a response to passenger complaints about two Bs and Ds in 1988.
Probably due to different expected passenger densities for each route. Queensbridge-Bway will have lots of trains on it; Bway-Grand probably only one.
Here's my bet:
Grand st S: First week: One 8 car 3PTO set (conductor and 2 T/Os, one at each end). Extra people to handle confused illiterate people (and yes the posters will be in every language possible, no excuses there). Need both T/Os so the shuttle can turn quickly, need 8 cars to handle the crowd since it will be about the same as normal for the first week.
Subsequent weeks: One 4 car OPTO set. Short train, T/O can change ends quickly. Most people would probably be taking M to BK or J/Z to Canal for Q/W at this point, no reason to provide full-length trains.
In both cases the train will run at 4 TPH except rush hours, then 6 TPH.
Queensbridge S: Several 480' trains, running at 6 TPH all times.
Nights everything at 3 TPH.
They can't be combined as one, there are no switches north of Grand Street so there will be single tracking. And single tracking 24/7 isn't good for service. The 2 shuttles will enter Broadway - Lafayette St on different tracks. Queensbridge Shuttle will use Track 1 and 4 while Grand Street Shuttle will use Track 3 and 4.
They pulled it off in the 80s!
Grand St using 3 and 4? Queensbridge 1 and 4? Hey what about the F, those 18tph can't fly over these shuttles.
They might. I'm just going on past performance.
July 1 is a Sunday, so those who are interested might want to take a farewell trip over the Northside Manny B tracks that last Friday, June 29. Who knows when they'll be back in service? Keep in mind that the Southside tracks will have been shut down from October 1990 through June 2001, a period of ten years and eight months.
Various postings have stated that the new Brighton-Broadway 'Q' will be exclusively R68s. Therefore, it would be nice to ride a slant down the 6th Avenue express (something else we're losing), over the Bridge and down the Brighton express. This could culminate at Nathan's.
Just something to think about for the next three months.
Very far sighted of you.
Some of us working class folks that don't normally use that route may find Saturday a little better to schedule. Does the Q run on Saturday? And a Sunday return to service tour for the South side of the bridge?
Sounds good , needs thought and planning, but sounds good.
avid
The Q is currently a weekday line (M-F, no service on weekdays running on weekend schedules). Once the switch takes place, the Q will operate 24/7.
I'm looking for a railfan widow for the farewell trip. Saturday or Sunday maybe my only days to say gooodbye and hello!
avid
Getting a railfan window on the weekend would be very difficult because the 'Q' doesn't run. The 'B' and 'D' run over the bridge, but the 'D' is solid R68s, and the 'B' runs one, maybe two Slants on weekends. It takes a lot of luck or patience to get one. The new bridge pattern takes place on Sunday, July 1, so Saturday the 30th is the absolute last day of the old one.
There have been other Subtalk trips on weekdays that usually assemble around 5:00 or 5:30. The group will wait at one or more strategic transfer points until a given time to accomodate those coming from work.
June would also be a good time to do this because of the very late sunsets, which is good for photography.
Howard, Sounds like the beggining of a plan for a Field Trip. We could meet at West 4th, take the B over the bridge & take a Q for the return up the Brighton.
Are you volunteering to be our tour leader ? Just pick the day & time and I would be happy to accompany you after work ! Remember only Fun Passes will be accepted on this ride.
BTW, the work on the Williamsburg bridge is also quite interesting. So for those who want to do a Second Section, on a week-end day, they should consider doing both bridges.
P.S. Lou from Brooklyn is going to do a second trip on SIRT, maybe in April or May and it looks like it will include a ride on a MCI Cruiser to get back to Manhattan. So watch out for that one too.
P.P.S. I'm going to do a Field Trip to the Beaches of Rock & Long, but not until it's warm enough to play a little volley ball at Long Beach.
Mr t__:^)
You are right on all counts. So it'll have to be Friday evening somewhere on 6th Ave. or whereever else is best to secure the coveted window and the two seats adjacent to it from those not concious of the momentous occasion. I'm thiking outloud, 57th and 6th or Lex and 63rd. The train should still be relatively vacant at that time.
What do you thing?
avid
)-: Fridays I can only make it early. And Saturdays I can't make it at all, except late at night, for the very same reason. (I'm sure someone here can figure out the reason.)
How about this, if the schedules permit: catch the very last train over the north side late Saturday night and return on the very first train over the south side early Sunday morning.
I have the same issues as you :) But a 5 or 5:30pm trip over bridge going towards Brooklyn will get me home way before sunset. Let's do this! I take the slants to and from work everyday and I will be VERY VERY disappointed if they are replaced by R68's.
As I mentioned to you in email, I'd be game for a ride in the other direction: meet in Brooklyn at 5 or 5:30 and ride to Manhattan. That would also give us better accessibility to the railfain window.
I'm afraid they will be replaced. A few years ago, when the R-40 was still running on the B and the Q was served by R-68(A)'s, the Q on the rollsigns was in a yellow diamond. That's exactly what the new Q express needs. I agree, it's a shame that the slow cars will be running express and the fast cars local.
David,
hat would be a great suggestion if we were in Incland, land of the midnight sun. The videio crews would have a field day(night) to capture this occasion. The end for a long time and a new beginning.
For those with recording and picture taking a Slant or any other car with a fan window and daylight are too necessary items.
For being on the last of the north and first of the south, a time table would be very heplful at this point!
Off topic.
How do you guys handle midnight suns?
avid.
Aren't the slants going to be relegated to the Q local? Or are they being transferred elsewhere?
Oh please tell me it ain't so !!!! I don't want a express ride on the Brighton or the L under the East River to be only a memory.
Mr t__:^)
Well, with the R143s coming, you're out of luck in the 14 Street Tunnels.
Q local or Q Express? I was under the impression the Q Local had the R68s and the express had the R40s. Can someone clarify this?
The 68's will have both circle and diamond Q, so they can run on either exp. or local, but the 40's only have the circle, so will nly be able to run on the local. Whether they will run on the full-time service now, I don't know. I thought they were trying to keep them part time (though the ones on the L run all the time). Perhaps the 68's will cover the weekend local? Who knows.
Oh darn! Can't they just change the signs on the R40s to have the diamond. I hate the Hippos. They're slow, they have no front window, they are shiny and scratchy and look like hell. Easily the worst cars in the system should not be placed on my beloved Q line!
Easily the worst cars in the system should not be placed on my beloved Q line!
Don't worry. The Repulsive Rustbirds aren't going to run on a BMT Line.
I'd take a Redbird over a slow, moaning Hippo anyday.
Then why are you complaining that the worst cars would be sent to the Q? You just said you enjoy the worst cars.
As long as Jamaica keeps all the R-46s (nobody else can have ém!) and R32s #3730-1 I couldn't give a rat's ass about any car reassignments. To make this easier they still may end up doing a temporary swap of Jamaica and Coney Island equipment.
I have a strange feeling that both Qs will end up interchanging equipment (Brighton local gets to 57 and becomes Brighton express). They'll probably put diamond Q stickers over the yellow B or D on the slants so they can use them. Or use the hi-tech solution and draw it on an index card and stick it in the front window (*cough*greenbuslines*cough*).
Oh I hope not! The slow POS R68 Hippos should be on the local. The Slants should be on the express!!!
The Q line being all R68s, my what a horrible thought! :-(
Various postings have stated that the new Brighton-Broadway 'Q' will be exclusively R68s
I must have missed this thread. I thought express Qs would still be slant 40s and local Qs would be R-68s ....
--Mark
So based on the 2 Q's going into service, does the Brighton line lose an hour of expres service to Brighton Beach? (I think the last express is due in to Brighton a little after 10pm .....)
--Mark
Well when I said 9 pm, that was the last departure. But that's just an estimate.
I would guess so. The only reason it was extended to 10 PM was to serve Queensbridge and keep the nighttime F on 53st until 10 PM.
Why does the W only go from CI to Pacific on weekends? I doubt West End riders will be enthused to hear that...
Could the Bridge be scheduled to be completely closed on weekends during this period? I did hear something like that early on in the forecast (forgot where). I wouldn't be surprised, because the S side has been unused for so long, and to switch all the traffic over suddenly will probably really put a strain. If they had so many weekend N side shutdowns these past 11 years, then it is possible.
"Blood Money."
What Blood Money?
That is great news to hear that the South Side of the Bridge is going to be open by July of this year. Will this cause any problem's when the Q Train run on the South Side of the Bridge on the 1st day?
R-40S #4200
If you want to know what blood money is before the new pick comes in, ride the L for five round trips. That'll give you an idea. Whomever drew up that single B job must've gotten chewed up by the wife before he got to work.
July 1 will also mark 33 years since Phase 2 of the Chrystie St. changes took effect. Coincidence or what?
One crew note: the B has mostly 3 and 4 round-trippers on the work programs. But there is one job B-214 that starts out of 34 St-6 Av
at 648 am that makes five trips! One to Bedford Park and four to 145 St. And it only pays 20 minutes overtime. Yikes! Can someone
say "blood money"?
The running time between 34th and Bedford Park is 40 minutes. The running time to 145th is 21 minutes. That makes the total running time for the day to be (2 x 1 x 40) + (2 x 4 x 21) = 248 minutes or 4 hours 8 minutes.
That means that those who opt for this pick will be performing revenue service only a little over 50% of the time. A more appropriate metaphor might be "leeches". :-)
Actually it's 24 minutes on the schedule to 145. But you've also got to take into account that you're charging a train up 10 times as well as walking 9 train lengths in a day (9x600=5400 feet or 1 1/16 miles). That's in addition to operating the train. No thanks.
I predict that job will go on the first day! If it doesn't get picked by 4-19, I'll gladly take it!
I can understand why someone would pick it. Central reporting location near the PA Bus Terminal and Penn Station being the main focal point.
But the work load that they give you outweighs the conveniences. I'd rather travel an additional 15 minutes to 145 to start work to do only 3 trips. But what is good for me isn't necessarily good for someone else.
I don't think that it'll go on the first day though, and I don't think that it'll still be around by the 19th either. I pick on the 27th but I wouldn't take it anyway, I'm staying VR (hopefully) or I'm taking AM Queens Extra.
METROCARD & CARDHOLDERS COLLECTORS CATALOG
This is an 8.5 inch x 11inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A beautiful collectors MUST HAVE. The supply is limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea. plus $2. P & H in check or Money Order
made out to: Mike Makman, To: Prof. Putter, Po Box 755
Planet Station, NYC NY 10024
Solicitation on this board is not allowed. If you want to sell stuff, then I suggest that you start your own website. Thank you.
Professor Putters METROCARD MANIA!! Fun With Used MetroCards!
This beautiful paperback book includes over 30 different projects using NYC MetroCards. Games, magic tricks, toys. Great for kids from 8 to adult. To order send $5 each + $3.00 (s&h) (outside USA $6.00 s&h) in US money, check or money order made out to: Michael Makman. Send order to: Professor Putter PO Box 755, Planet Station New York , NY 10024-0539
Hey! My friend and I came up with our own "101 Fun Things To Do With MetroCards" two years ago! This is such a ripoff.
OTOH, ours was written on the back of a page of math notes and there were an awful lot of repeats and it's probably buried under six feet of garbage at Arthur Kill, so I guess he can have it.
But we should have charged.
Dan
Can't beat the original "Professor Putter" !!
Did anyone read the DVARP article on the Enola Branch? SEPTA wants to share NS's ROW from Norristown to Reading; NS said no dice, there must be 26 feet between their own tracks and new SEPTA tracks, which would mean replacing all bridges and buying lots of property. SEPTA offered to rebuild the Enola branch via Glenloch/Thorndale/Parkesburg/Columbia through Lancaster county to H'burg for NS, in exchange for giving up its Reading line. Costs are outrageous. It would also spell the death of the proposed Cross-County Metro from Morrisville via KoP to Silicon Valley Forge. I don't understand what's wrong with a cheap, reliable commuter rail line. Do we really need a metro line with 10 minute headways to Reading, 60 miles away when they can't do anything in Northeast Philly, which has the highest ridership estimates of any proposed project in the country, after NYC's 2nd Ave.? Reading's not even in the Philly Metro area!
SEPTA should just start a 1/2 hourly commuter rail service using the PRR RoW from CC to Norristown and then the NS Harrisburg Line from there to Reading. As a carrot they could offer the 4-track all the parts that used to be 4 tracks and twin the Black Rock tunnel.
Three weeks ago I passed by, on the I-5 Freeway, the Warner Bros Studios backlot in Glendale, and it looked as though the three remaining R-27/30 cars were gone. Unfortunately, it was raining hard (Yes, it does rain in California, unfortunately a LOT lately...) and it wasn't safe to take a closer look while driving the freeway.
Today I had to go up to Burbank, and made a point to check the place out, and the three cars that were still there utnil late 2000, are GONE!!! No idea where they went, but so much for the R27/30'
s in Glendale, California!
Didn't the Orange Empire Museum cheery-pick their H2C couplers ?
Yup, supposedly they got some, not sure if it was from the very three cars that were at WBS Glendale though.
Where is the backlot? On W San Fernando going toward the 134??
It was between the I-5 and San Fernando Road. The main entrance of the place was on Brazil Street, but you'd never get past the guard shack there.
I did hike up the service road on the Los Angeles River in 11/99 and got close enough to the cars to take some photos then. I did send them to David Pirmann to post on NY Subway Resources, but I haven't seen where he posted them.
No wonder I didn't know.....I was looking in the wrong area.
Email David and ask him about the photos, or better yet, if you still have them, re send them to him.
I just asked him recently....and got no response regarding the photos. I still have them, and have already sent them three times. I feelt hat is enough.
post them in my yahoo club MASS TRANSIT COMMENTARY go to the photos after you join the club & then post them in !!
its in the catergory of railroads & trains
Rats!! i am sorry to hear that & i missed getting a picture of them !! who has the last shot while they were still there ??
Maybe they went home.
What's home, the 168th Street Jamaica station in the sky ?
Coney Island.
Oooooohhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooooo.
Making a new movie , starring
heypaul!!!!!
with Kristine Watanabi, BMTman and a cast of 8 milliom!
avid
"Making a new movie , starring
heypaul!!!!!
with Kristine Watanabi, BMTman and a cast of 8 million !"
Based on the true story of Sea Beach Fred and the quest for a faster route to Coney Island !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I'll bet the titles would scroll very rapidly across the screen.:-)
And be all lower case letters, too.
The Never Ending Soggie
avid
Horray! They announced at 6:00 there was an agreement. Now it has to be ratified by the "rank and file". Also, it was announced that fares
will be going up within this year. I am not surprised at that.
The next hurdle is the Suburban Division, then Frontier.
Chuck Greene
You mean a final settlement? The Frontier and Red Arrow divisions can't strike because all their riders have cars. But what did they decide about Viagra reimbursements, etc.?
Great, I'm glad my fraternal union cousins have triumphed. But you can't tell me SEPTA mngm't. didn't time the fare increase announcement to coincide with the contract agreement announcement to make the general riding public believe that those new increases are whats being used to pay for the new agreement, which they hop will galvanize the public with mgm't. in the future and villify the union.
Peace, Thomas:-)
The public hates fare increases; the public hates SEPTA management; the public hates the TWU. Fare increases are much more galvanizing of public opinion than strikes. Regardless, the SEPTA riding public hates them all; and all with justification. The whole system sucks.
>>>The public hates fare increases; the public hates SEPTA management; the public hates the TWU.
Phillyguy: Wow - that's a line to remember! :)
-cordially,
turnstiles
>>> "The public hates fare increases, the public hates SEPTA management, the public hates the TWU"<<<
I'm glad we are able to resolve it all the way down to something so succintly short, simple, and sweet(!) ;-) -Peace, Thomas>:-0)
Well, I'm sure that there are some good aspects of the system. Just because they do a lot of other bad junk, it can't be all that bad. They have nice vehicles,anyway.
SEPTA is stating that the fare increase was coming anyway. You can believe what you want. I don't believe either side in this one. The riders, once again, stood to lose the most, and it seems as if no one was all that interested in their welfare.
I can't see how drivers who struck 3 years ago and never gained back what they lost in 40 days out of work were so willing to go out, especially for medical co-pays (and everyplace is cutting this sort of stuff back). I could take the cheap shot and make a Viagra joke (but really, you think those guys and gals behind the wheels would be way more pleasant since the Viagra is flowing freely!), but I won't. The mere threat of the strike, and the chilling thought that drivers would go out in midday, further disregarding the so-called 'customers', is hard for me to fathom. Ridership went down 8% just in the past week since people feared getting stranded.
If this sounds anti-union, it isn't meant to be, but more and more I see the operators too willing to violate the 'social contract' they have with the riders. Any snowstorm is a good example of this - too many drivers make snap judgements that conditions are unsafe, and lines shut down with little regard for the riders. Management is no better since it defends this as 'safe operating practice'.
Fares will increase and riders will find one more reason to abandon ship, starting the downward cycle we have continually seen with transit. It's a darn shame.
As I was reading an article about yesterday's talks (I believe it was
on the 6ABC website), it mentioned that SEPTA has been on strike five
times since their 44 day strike in 1977, which was the longest in
city history. I know that the last two strikes were in 1995 (2 weeks),
and 1998 (40 days). Can anyone tell me when the other two strikes
occured, and how long they lasted? Also, the longest strike in the
history of the entire SEPTA system was the 1983 commuter rail strike,
which lasted a whopping 3 MONTHS!!!
Also, the longest strike in the
history of the entire SEPTA system was the 1983 commuter rail strike,
which lasted a whopping 3 MONTHS!!!
So THAT'S how they completed the commuter rail tunnel with out a service disruption. There WAS NO SERVICE to disrupt!!! The strike game them time out for construction.
1980-1983 was a real turning point for rail transport in the us. Freight, commuter and passenger.
There was a strike in '81, which lasted 19 days. Somewhere in the late 80's/early 90's there was a 4-day one I recall (but I can't remember the year - '91 sticks in my mind for some reason...).
And all during this time Baltimore had NONE!!! Binding Arbitration works.
1986 was the 4-day strike.
Here's all the similarities I can think of:
Visible Similarities
Locust Manor station (LIRR) and everything on the peninsula are very similar.Operational-related Similarities
Deadheading A trains often go by full speed.On this site, it talks about the light fixtures on the station platforms being the same, with a particular kind of incandescent bulb. But a recent discussion here on SubTalk implied that these fixtures were being replaced with fluorescent lighting.
Yes, they still have the original lamps of the LIRR. The LIRR no longer has these lamps though, making them dissimilar :·)
I'm the one who posted about them changing them over. And I now doubt that they will keep the original lamppost, I looked at Aqueduct N-Conduit and noticed that the old ones had been removed and the only trace is a slightly higher (2") vertical bar in the railing every so often.
Henry,
Once the new lamps were installed, the original post were cut down and caped at Aqueduct.
avid
Recently at a slide show, I learned that there still is a LIRR milepost marker on the elevated viaduct, I believe the Far Rockaway branch. The marker is milepost 16.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'll have to keep an eye out! Thanks!
>>So unless they changed the height of the ROW, the platform height of the LIRR and NYCT is the same.<<
Exactly. I have a picture of an M-1 and an R-44 set (speed testing) on tracks right next to each other. R-44's are wider at the mid section though.
>>Deadheading A trains often go by full speed.<<
They Deadhead trains on the Rkwy. Pk. spur? Where are they going to when they deadhead them? What exactly do you mean by 'deadheading'
They deadhead about every other arrival at Far Rock to Pitkin yard after 5:30 PM until well after 7 PM. They use the middle on the el portion of the line.
The Rock Park trains are wrong-railed into Seaside and reversed into the yard after their run.
Which one is Seaside? The numbered names (B105, B98, B90, B67, B60, B44, B36 and B25) make much more sense, since the named names are totally irrelevant, all of the stations are Seaside, only Edgemere is a real, still extant location. Rockaway Park however is still a neighborhood so B116 can have a neighborhood name.
As for my policy against using street names and in favor of using neighborhood names (or preferrably both), unless there is a second parallel line in the Rockaways, or a line is built to Sea Gate in Brooklyn, there is no problem with conflicting beach streets.
Seaside is Beach 105. Edgemere (the neighborhood) is Beach 36. Wavecrest is Beach 25. Hammels has no station, but it has the wye. Beach 44, 60 and 67 have "avenue" names which are vestigial, but that neighborhood is usually referred to as Arverne. Beach 90 and 98 is in Rockaway Beach. West of Rockaway Park is Belle Harbor, and then Neponset. Just like the rest of Queens, the Rockaways have a lot of old, semi- or unused names laying around.
Beach 105 is not Seaside, it's Playland.
Or is that Beach 98?
And I know all of the obscure neighborhood names, just not the completely dead Rockaway ones, except for Edgemere which still exists.
Rockaway's Playland Amusement Park (and the station) were on Beach 98.
By the way, as far as vestigial names go, my Dad, who lived every summer in Rockaway since the 1930's, never heard of Frank Av, Gaston Av or Stratton Av. The only "old" name I ever heard him use was Central Av for the main drag in the shopping area of Far Rock. Central Av does exist, but south of Mott Av it is Beach 20.
The neighborhood names are still used by people living in the area and the post office, which has names associated with the 116xx zip codes on the peninsula.
The TA should poll the users of these stations if they ever refer to them by the old street names. If not, dump them, so that only trivia buffs remember them.
I wonder how many Culver, Sea Beach and West End riders refer to Bay Parkway as 22 Av?
I wonder how many Culver, Sea Beach and West End riders refer to Bay Parkway as 22 Av?
Don't know, but signs at the "F" station (at the far ends of the platform) do refer to 22 Avenue.
wayne
They already dumped the old names on the map for pretty much everything. Signs are a bit harder to change.
Gaston Ave used to be known as Arverne station in LIRR days. Maybe they should have kept it that way.
Which one is Gaston, 36th or 44th? The other one is Frank.
The MTA should remove the old names from the signs, here it's a two-line sign, so not so hard. They should do the same to the remaining stations with the old names on the N Astoria, A Liberty and 7 Roosevelt.
When were the streets in the Rockaways numbered?
Frank is Beach 44. Gaston is Beach 60. Stratton is Beach 67. Beach 36 is Edgemere, which is the name of the area.
Sorry, don't know when the streets were numbered in Rockaway, but my guess it is over 60 years ago.
For the first time in over a month, I saw an R142A train
on the #6 today. It had the same problem it had last time
I saw it: a medium-pitched and extremely piercing whine.
Couldn't figure out exactly where it was coming from, maybe
the static converter, maybe the PA system? It was so bad
I stepped out of the car and waited for the next train. Anyone
(maybe Pelham Bay Dave) know about this problem?
If its an external whine that's characteristic of AC traction motors everywhere. Internal could be (lubricant) dryness in the HVAC blower or maybe an open PA mike.
I remember PAs on a lot of the R040M/42 trains on the D used to screech CONSTANTLY...eeezh!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
It's not a propulsion sound because it happens with the cars
standing still as well as moving. It could be a blower but
it seemed to be coming from beneath the car, and all HVAC
components (including the compressors on these cars) are in
the roof plenum.
Do you mean that ambient whine, never changing in pitch, depth, etc.?
I noticed it too, if you sit there and don't think about it (or concentrate on the AC traction) you won't be bothered by it.
As for getting rid of the 'problem' I think it is pretty much on the same level of the MTA's to-do list as getting rid of the whine on the R-44s. Somewhere between "make all stations ADA compliant" and "provide reclining lounge chairs, TV, and carpeting in off-hour waiting areas".
>>As for getting rid of the 'problem' I think it is pretty much on the same level of the MTA's to-do list as getting rid of the whine on the R-44s.<<
I like that whine. It sounds cool, and it's hardly what one would consider annoying. But at least I know where that whine comes from.
The whine is cool when you're in a tunnel, or the train is crowded, or if there is any other noise (IE loud radio or loud talking). It gives you something to focus on while trying to drown out distractions. It's also cool when the train is in an underground station and you are not on it (the sound has a neat effect). But in the Broad Channel flats, where you've got 8 minutes before the doors open again and nobody else making any noise, the sound can get deafening. You pray for the T/O to honk or hit the brakes to cut into the droning ambiance. Thanks to CWR you don't even have the click-clack of the tracks every 39 feet on each side to cut into it. At the Rockaway and Broad Channel stations, when a train is stopped in the station that ambiance is the loudest sound anywhere! No traffic or passenger noise, that sound is just THERE. And it's pure torture when the South Channel Bridge is open, you have a choice: Sit on the train for 5 minutes and wait and listen; or stand on the platform and wait and listen while watching the bridge slowly turn.
My sighting of an R-142 yesterday brought into view a car with side "rollsigns" reading, "8" where "6" should have been and "VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV" where "Brooklyn Bridge" and "Pelham Bay Park" should have been.
Later in the day I rode on a R-142 consist, but I didn't notice the "whine," unless you're talking about that high-pitched sort-of buzzing hum, similar to the noise that's always present in the D.C. Metro, which gets a little louder right before and just as the train begins to move. If that's what it is, maybe it doesn't bother me because I'm used to that particular noise from WMATA.
Last month I rode the MFL, and the M4 cars had a very similar accelarating whine. Are they also Kawasaki?
The 142A automated announcement bloopers are getting pretty amusing. All the way from 51st to Pelham Bay, the female voice would get cut off by the male telling us to stand clear of the doors just as 'she' said "This is the train to P-". The effect was one of 'her' spitting.
Who says WOMEN always interrupt?
I know I differ from most, but I'm a fan of the new M4s, the "Mounds." Clear front window with (cushioned!) seats actually facing out the front, gleaming stainless steel exterior with blue striping, smooth ride, and I just like the overall aesthetic design of the exterior for some reason. Compare to the clattering, bouncing Almond Joys. Of course, I know nothing of the quality of the mechanics or technology, but the M4s currently top my list of "favorite rapid transit vehicles in current use."
well,sometimes you feel like an nut, sometimes you don't. almond joys had nuts falling from them, mounds don't.
Very good !!
LOL!!!
the M-4's are made by Adtranz. maybe the company who makes the traction motors are the same. the Reason why the female voice gets cut off is because the conductor is soing it. you will notice it at stations that are near empty.
You mean like:
This is a Br-Stand Clear of the Cl-Ding dong.
The M-4's are definitely NOT Kawasakis (they would have never built such a monstrosity). They are built by Adtrash (excuse me, Adtranz). The B-IV's ARE Kawasakis (currenty the best fleet in Philly).
Not HVAC and not AC motors, hey?...
Well, underneath there's the inverter, maybe a compressor, maybe a battery charger.
The battery chargers on the pre-rebuild R-46s used to almost scream on some cars. Compressors on some pre-rebuild R-44s would never shut up.
What else is there?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Next time I encounter it I'll have to check if other cars are
making the same noise. The next car was making noise, but it
was another "B" car. The "A" cars lack compressors and LVPS
(aka "static converter") boxes.
It is the same kind of noise that the static converters make, but
lower in pitch and much, much louder. It also didn't shift pitch
with load. Static converter noise changes when a battery load is
applied such as doors opening or closing. It might be the PA
since the noise seemed to come from everywhere, and those cars
have external speakers too.
All I know is the last time I rode on an R142A with this problem,
I had a splitting headache within 5 station stops.
7307 was making this noise (assuming we're talking about the same noise). My guess is that it's coming from the external speakers, since the whine seemed to be directed outward, though it didn't seem to be eminating from any one point. The adjacent car seemed to be making it, too.
its all in the traction motors. its not a problem that needs to be fixed thats its nature. its different the R-142 on the 2 line. you can't hear it unless the ac is off. its not a piercing whine it sounds like a some kind of electronic musical instrument that give 5 tones.
The rollsigns on these types are not like the Redbirds that you could rotate because their is a button their. How could you get a key to sroll the rollsigns on these types, could you buy it at a hardware store?
P.S. I remember seeing a R32 on the E line (don't remember the car #) a couple of weeks ago that had the rotating buttons on the rollsigns strange up to now they have it! 1 year ago I remember seeing a R38 on the A line same thing in parenthesis on top that had the rotating buttons on the rollsigns strange!
There is I believe one pair of R-38s (if even a pair, it may only be one sign) with cranks. There are several R-32s with them on a few cars assigned to Jamaica and Coney Island Yards.
There is a hexagonal shaped portable manual crank used by the crew to change the signs. It appears to be easier to work with than the built-in ones on the redbirds.
If you want to change the signs, find an appropriately sized screwdriver and stick it in the slot. R-32/38s are easiest to change, R40/42s are hardest, and don't even bother trying on Corona Redbirds. R-62/68 will seem easy to change, until you attempt to scroll it back to correct... wrist will tire out easily.
REMEMBER TO TURN IT BACK TO NORMAL! Don't ever leave it in a strange position unless it's harmless strange, like 'Far Rockaway' becomes 'The Rockaways', changing orange letters to yellow, 'R Queens Blvd / Bway / 4th ave' becomes 'R Queens Blvd / Bway / 4th ave', or(C) becomes < C >. Once a C/R saw me changing the signs, and simply instructed me: 'turn it back when you're done.' Though now I only do it when the signs are incorrect, like if the N's southern dest is Canal st or when a GO is in effect and the signs are wrong.
I once saw a car with signs that read some crazy combination on the rollsigns on a 2 train in Brooklyn. Good excuse to change the signs. I was able to scroll through the entire thing, making sure to return it to the correct combination by the time the train got to President Street. The best part was that there were a few people in the car. The ideal being that you're the only person that is not part of the train crew aboard the train.
BTW, I was able to write the readings down, and made my Redbird Side Signs page on my site.
[If you want to change the signs, find an appropriately sized screwdriver and stick it in the slot.]
Would 3/8" be good enough?
[Don't ever leave it in a strange position unless it's harmless strange]
So I guess leaving the route on
Metropolitan AvRockaway Pkwy,
Canarsie
is out, huh?
The route is impossible without switching directions or going through Coney Island anyway.
I saw an interesting reading on an R train a couple of weekends ago
City Hall
Manhattan18 Av
McDonald Av Brooklyn-Queens
Crosstown
Since when is the City Hall station (BMT) a north terminal? Wouldn't it be more appropriate as a south terminal. There's an idea! Instead of terminating southbound trains at Canal Street, have them terminate at the lower level of City Hall! They could use the express tracks at Canal Street for storage.
My oddball BMT roller curtain has all northern BMT terminals including City Hall.
I remember a while back someone in Jamaica yard (as a joke?) put the wrong signs in the wrong spots. Here's the result:
World Trade Center
E Queens Blvd / 8 (cut off by blocking thing)
Jamaica Center / Parsons Archer
What's this all about? An hour or so ago, GE Electric Locomotive E3 (SL50E) pushed two rider cars up the West Farms El, an R-14 and an R-15, no flat cars. When was the last time anyone saw an R-14 and an R-15 coupled? Has it been 20 years since they were in passenger service?
It's unusual for me because I don't usually see Rider Cars, coupled back to back, usually one per work train.
-Stef
Freight duty perhaps? I'd use rider cars to ship if I was sending hundreds of loose bowling balls to the yard. Seriously, that is strange. Perhaps moving rider cars to 239th perhaps for serious workload yet to be announced. But I'd bet on the bowling balls. :)
HA! Good one.............
On a separate note, there was another one of these unusual lashups sometime afterward. A Rhode Island Locomotive Works SL50 Diesel (OL908) and flat car were dispatched to do what? Pick up Two Other Electric Locomotives (E2 and E4) along with an R-14 Rider Car. How bizarre! I wonder if that diesel was pulling the electrics dead, or was merely a transfer of equipment, say to the Pelham Diesel House?
-Stef
Glad you enjoyed, bro! Given some of the off the wall things I've seen lately, bowling ball deliveries almost seem logical. :)
Sounds like the army though ... "I want this pile of dirt here ... over THERE." Might have been busy work or something's up. Of course, it'd seem we'd be the last to know. So any new toys rolling past your box lately?
Oh yeah! I think there were some 142 deliveries last week, but I haven't been home to give an eyewitness account. I should really set up a camera in my (railfan) window.
-Stef
Story on the UTU site:
http://www.utu.org/News/NewsDgst/2001/March/0320/03200001.htm#in
Warrington told a House subcommittee today (on CSPAN) that the Sperry Car found a rail defect right there, the rail was replaced, but the replacement was probably manufacturingly defective.
I'm posting this only because there has been a dearth of subway related postings and I'd like to do my bit to at least draw subtalk back from the precipice of turning into a political discussion board.
For those interested in politics, most internet service providers provide what is called "usenet newsgroups" ... there's over 56,000 of them, one of which is news:alt.politics which is an unmoderated discussion board for politics. Nobody will stop you from posting whatever you want there, and the discussions on politics range from the highly intellectual to the rabid and vicious. I point this out because there is a place for this, subtalk is NOT the place. As much as I have my own political opinions that may or may not mesh with others (I'm set in my own ways, I don't care whether anyone agrees with me or not) I'd hate to see even more people get cheesed off and pull the plug on this one and only one place where transit expertise gets together on topics we ALL care about. So go visit news:alt.politics instead if we want to whine about politics. Eventually we all get old enough to realize that it just doesn't matter. Politicians are futtbucking US ...
That all said, a terrible accident occurred overnight in the Selkirk freight yards where a switchman, Brian Hotaling, (UTU) was crushed between former conrail locomotive 8662 and a grain hopper which derailed on the adjacent track during a hump, landing on top of him and crushing his leg, pinning him on the skirt of the locomotive between the two units. Brian is in serious condition. He lost a lot of blood and will fortunately live, but it's likely his railroading days are over.
I have a friend, also named Hotaling but Brian is from nearby Ravena. For anyone who doubts what tons of metal on steel wheels can do to you, this is an unfortunate reminder to all once again that the TRAIN *ALWAYS* wins ... and often, it's unfortunate. Remember that when one of those inconvenient grade crossings slows your trip and you feel like being stupid.
In Brian's case, this was another of those "freak accidents" since switchmen usually ride the steps so they can leap down, toss a switch and move to the next track. Who would ever think that a train on the next track would derail RIGHT where you're hanging? Railroading ain't safe, even for the seasoned.
Back when Metro North had non-elevated platforms, I used to amaze me to see commuters dash across four tracks at the Stamford station to make the incoming New York bound train. Although (as far as I know) no one ever got killed there, several were casualties at the Old Greenwich and Cos Cob stations.
It's amazing when you don't have a long view down straight track in both directions how quickly a train can "be there" when you're doing things like that. And if high speed rail comes to fruition, you won't have a chance in hell at all.
It's amazing when you don't have a long view down straight track in both directions how quickly a train can "be there" when you're doing things like that. And if high speed rail comes to fruition, you won't have a chance in hell at all.
The singing rails can give you up to 30 seconds warning whan a train is moving at speed.
At least he was hit by a former CR locomotvie. It would add insult to injury to get nailed by a CSX invader (or god forbid a lease unit).
Somehow I think the difference is lost on Brian. He's doing a bit better but his legs were crushed from the ankles to above the knees. He might lose both.
Well you tell me. If you had to get slpattered by a locomotive which one would you pick? I'd want to get hit by a CDOT NH painted FL-9.
He was ON the locomotive ... a car is what got him when it fell over onto the loco on the track next door.
There was a similar accident right before the splitup where a C/R was riding on a box car on a reverse move and it hit a slow plow drift at a grade crossing and it tipped over and crushed him.
Hate to see things like that happen - here in the Selkirk area, we're all a tight knit bunch of railroad folks and everybody liked Brian. He's doing better but his family's keeping information to a minimum so he can be left alone. At least he survived.
That's a shame. It goes to show you with the best precautions taken, accidents do happen. The car derailed you said? Was it the car or track that's at fault?
-Stef
Don't know ... he was riding the steps moving back while a consist was being knocked on the adjacent track. Several cars went over the side. It might have been soil conditions - we have a lot of clay up here and it's oozing ... NTSB and CSX are looking into why, but the cars toppled onto the loco from the next track ...
Any information on how the derailment occurred? I see nothing on the web pages of the Albany Times Union or The Gazette.
The loco was doing a runaround and on the adjacent track, a consist of grain hoppers was being knocked. Apparently 3 cars derailed and fell over, one onto the locomotive. It could have been soggy ground and track undermine (clay) but at this point, CSX and NTSB are still trying to figure that out. Right now, we don't know
SelkirkTMO:
3 things:
1) I've come to enjoy your postings. It's nice to get an upstaters perspective, and also a view from a "heavy" rail buff, which I assume you are due to your handle.
2) If you work for CSX, perhaps in the yard, I wonder if they ever give tours...
3) My argument has always been that since politics and transit, and even railroading, are so intertwined, and since passenger rail, which is my main interest here, is so dependent on public investment (conservatives would say "subsidy," but I'm not one), that to omit political views from this board, simply because they are political is neither practical, nor, in my view, desirable. Unless you are speaking purely technically (I recall from a posting a while ago, that Dave Pirmann had actually intended this board to be so focused), you can't talk trains without talking public policy. If you limit this board's discussion group to a technical brotherhood, you will lose many a Subtalker, including me, because I have scant mechanical and technical knowledge when it comes to trains. I'm more interested in the history of it all and its current use and growth, and what's more inter-woven with history than politics?
That being said, politics ought only to come into play here when related to transit or railroading. I do agree that a purely political thread, say, with a subject like, "Why I think Shrub is a complete idiot," has no place here. However, a thread like, "Why I think Shrub is a complete idiot for opposing an Amtrak funding increase," might. But even then, should the topic devolve into mindless and thoughtless diatribe, all we need do is exit the thread and move on. Speaking from experience, it may be difficult to turn the other cheek when one has been politically offended, but perhaps sometimes that's the best course of action.
KP
Pete, I agree with you, but wouldn't call it politics as much as I would call it a debate.
Good debaters don't throw rocks, they argue points. The other important consideration, to the rest of us, is that when Larry, Peter Rosa, Ron form Bayside, Chicago John, etc. are having a debate the "Subject" line should tip us off. Yours is a good example of a changed "Subject" that lets me know right away what I was likely to find if I clicked on it vs. "yard accident in Silkirk".
BTW, I hadn't read the former thread because it didn't interest me.
P.S. I do enjoy a good thoughtful debate on transit issues here too, but I also enjoy those with HPS almost as much.
Mr t__:^)
"Good debaters don't throw rocks, they argue points. The other important consideration, to the rest of us, is that when Larry, Peter Rosa, Ron form Bayside, Chicago John, etc. are having a debate the "Subject" line should tip us off. Yours is a good example of a changed "Subject" that lets me know right away what I was likely to find if I clicked on it vs. "yard accident in Silkirk". "
Thanks for bringing that up. I don't always do a good job of that, and I'll try to do better in future...
Murphy's law applies to all walks of life. More education as to the pitfalls of any job are in order, but sadly, many tragic accidents will continue to happen.
I went to NYC yesterday to do camcording on Pelham and Flushing Expresses yesterday. Maybe time was not right, I had been waiting for an Redbird Pelham Express train at Brooklyn Bridge for over an hour!
When I was on the Pelham line, I saw four R142A trains on #6,
7261-70, 7271-80, 7291-7300, and 7301-10. No wonder I saw R62A 1661-70 was back on #1, and some Jerome R33s on #6 were back on #4.
Chaohwa
Temporary IRT car shifts seem to have ended on tyhe 6 line as of March 12, 2001. No more R-33s off 2 or 4 unless something is very wrong. The 10 extra WF R-36s (9420-9457) also went back to the 7 line.
Looks like the R-142As are in service to stay, for better or worse.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Call me crazy, but I'm sure I rode a Corona R-36WF on the 6 this Tuesday. I don't recall the number.
If it had picture windows, it was WF R-36.
In reference to the past controversy related to the MAS (Maximum Authorized Speed) of the DE30s, this AM I rode the cab from Mid Suffolk to LIC. Once we left Babylon, we were in Run8 through Amityville. From Amityville to Massapequa our speed was a steady 79 - 80 MPH per the cab speedometer. After leaving Jamaica, we hit a maximum of 79 MPH between Forest Hills and Woodside. In many places we were outrunning the Electrics. Hence, let's put the 65 MPH MAS in electrified territory to bed - once and for all.
From Amityville to Massapequa our speed was a steady 79 - 80 MPH per the cab speedometer. After leaving Jamaica, we hit a maximum of 79 MPH between Forest Hills and Woodside.
The LIRR has Cab Signaling with ATC, why dosen't it go faster than 80 mph? Lik maybe 85-90. It is a problem with the track or something? Heck even SEPTA hits 87 on the R7 line (and its on your regular wooden ties and CWR).
I don't know about the DE30ACs, but the electric regularly exceed 80 mph. I've been told this by crew and have clocked them by milepost close to 90 on off=peak Babylon Expresses on the Babylon Line, where there is straight track and no grade crossings.
Unless the Speed control is cut out, this is impossible. As soon as we hit 80+, the alarm wnt off and the brakes began to apply. This is also true when a lower speed code is displayed.
Unless the Speed control is cut out, this is impossible
I'll take your word for that, but, 80 mph is a 45 second mile; 90 mph is a 40 second mile. Am I correct? I've timed several consecutive mileposts, then taken the average to figure speeds over 85 mph, even figuring for a little error in my reaction time. I last did this maybe 8 years ago, when I still rode regularly.
So something seems to be going on. Maybe it's those LI kids moving the mileposts? ;-)
How do you know the mileposts are correct ?
How do you know the mileposts are correct ?
Accurate measurements are important on a railroad. Why would you think they're not?
LOL, Railroad miles are notorious for being wrong. Milemarkers are laid once (back in 1850) and never laid again. If the route is regraded they can't go and change all the milemarkers so they just move the existing ones arond. For example Mile 37 on the Amtrak Harrisburg Line is 1700' long. Miles that are ACTUALLY 5280' are listed in the employee timetable for Speedo checking and there are "begin and end measured mile" signs.
It is the LIRR, and a once read a story that two mile markers on the Montauk Branch in the St Albans vicinity were at one time about 6000 feet apart.
I think that since the FRA mandates the speed control be calibrated and tested each day - it might be more accurate than the mile post vs wristwatch method. I'm quite sure that the LIRR trains do not exceed the MAS. BTW: When the ASC is cut off, I believe the MAS is reduced to 60 MPH.
I'm quite sure that the LIRR trains do not exceed the MAS.
The PRR engineers could fool the ATC (can we please generic name) and get an extra 5-10 mph.
When the ASC is cut off, I believe the MAS is reduced to 60 MPH.
Then the ATC is cut out the train can go as fast as it wants. FRA regs impose an 80 mph speed limit in the absence of ATC/ATS. This is why the LIAR is wasting its ATC system. They can go over 80, but they don't. They might as well rip it out.
/*The PRR engineers could fool the ATC (can we please generic name) and get an extra 5-10 mph. */
Oh, there's a brilliant system. I believe the brakes on the FL-9s were changed also because there was a trick that would let you fool the system.
/*Then the ATC is cut out the train can go as fast as it wants.*/
Not always. The LIRR's restricts speed. Anyway, with the ATC cut out, they're restricted in cab signal territory to 40, I think.
/* FRA regs impose an 80 mph speed limit in the absence of ATC/ATS.*/
Gee, no wonder Amtrak runs 80 everywhere.
/* This is why the LIAR is wasting its ATC system. They can go over 80, but they don't. They might as well rip it out.*/
Why? It's a proven safety system that prevents accidents. Maybe you're forgetting WHY the LIRR was forced to add speed control to their cab signals in the 50's, and WHY they were forced to extend it to wherever the electrics ran, at the same time. On top of that, cab signals have the useful ability to work in the rain, fog - whatever. And also, it gets rid of wayside signals and their maintenance issues. The Port Washinton line doesn't have wayside signals outside of interlockings, and the mainline from Jamacia probbably won't in a while too. Metro-North doesn't have them either.
What I'd love to see is some RR adopt a European system like what the Germans use on the ICE, where the cab signal tells you the MAS in the block you're in, the MAS in the next block, and how far you are from it. Thus, you no longer need wayside signals, just stop markers. Combine this with a system that can enforce stop and stay and stop and proceed, and you've got a very robust safety system. At most, you'd need dwarf signals at terminals / big stations.
Oh, there's a brilliant system. I believe the brakes on the FL-9s were changed also because there was a trick that would let you fool the system.
If an engineer is artful enough at his trade to be able to fool the system he is more than qualified to run at slightly faster speeds.
Not always. The LIRR's restricts speed. Anyway, with the ATC cut out, they're restricted in cab signal territory to 40, I think.
When you cut out ATC there is no more control, the train can go as fast as it wants. Mind you there are many rules regarding not doing this. Now what the active ATC system does when is it not in cab signal territory is another issue.
Gee, no wonder Amtrak runs 80 everywhere.
You didn't know that?
Why? It's a proven safety system that prevents accidents. Maybe you're forgetting WHY the LIRR was forced to add speed control to their cab signals in the 50's, and WHY they were forced to extend it to wherever the electrics ran, at the same time.
The Montauk and PW branches were cab signaled in the 20's and CSS was standard PRR policy. CSS is great, but there's no point in wasting its benefits. Setting a system wide speed limit is stupid. The linespeed should be whatever the FRA alows given the condition of the track (which I guess would be at least class 6) punctuated by PSR's where necessary.
What I'd love to see is some RR adopt a European system like what the Germans use on the ICE, where the cab signal tells you the MAS in the block you're in, the MAS in the next block, and how far you are from it.
Cab Signals should NOT show MAS or Linespeed, they should give SIGNAL ASPECTS only. The engineer needs to know track status and block occupancy, Linespeed is a related piece of information. It is not the job of the signaling system to enforce Linespeed and PSR's. A line is clear if there are 2-3 clear blocks ahead and the engineer should be informed accordingly regardless if the Linespeed is 30mph or 80mph.
What I'd love to see is some RR adopt a European system like what the Germans use on the ICE, where the cab signal tells you the MAS in the block you're in, the MAS in the next block, and how far you are from it.
Yea, but does it tell you track condition? Currently US signals already tells you the line status (and related speeds) 2-3 blocks ahead. Approach Medium = this block clear, next block medium speed. Approach = this block medium speed, next block stop. BTW you sould NEVER get rid of wayside signals at interlockings. CSS systems do fail and having the ability for centralized manual block running is essential. I don't know why you need distances, blocks should be laid out to always ensure a sufficient braking distance from Linespeed or MAS. The engineer just needs to follow his signals.
It's not the old PRR 3-aspect ATC system anymore when an engineer could keep his foot on the acknowledge lever while he floored a West Hempstead train over the switcthes. They equipment now is very electronic in nature and very unforgiving for slow repsonses or for speeding.
Cutting out the ATC is very rare. It has still prevented countless train crashes. The Amtrak wreck in Syrcause last month would not have happened.
The PRR system is 5 aspects and it is also used by MNRR, BNSF, RFP, CR and many other RR's. The PRR engineers could somehow fool the speed control and get an extra 5-10 mph. The book didn't say how.
Ummm... The origional PRR system was *3* aspect (look at the schematic to the GG-1's cab signals from the 30's. And didn't enforce any restrictions. In the 50's, this was changed so that the system would, and the LIRR extended cab signaling to most of electric territory. Today, the LIRR uses a 7 aspect system, I believe. From what I usederstand, the New Haven uses coded signling that the GG-1, etc, would pick up, but the codes weren't carried through the interlockings. I'm not sure what the current springfield line setup is, but it's either a 3or 5 aspect system. I have no clue what ACSE (Amtrak Civil Speed Enforcement) is like, but it probbably lags far behind what's in Europe and Japan. Like the rest of Amtrak.
Metro-Norh's cab signals, at least in terms of what the engineer sees and how it's used, are different from the PRR's system. There's *no* wayside signaling outside of interlockings, and interlockings generally display either 2 reds, or a flashing green. That's it.
Quite a few western RRs used an inductive loop sytstem that was different (much different) in operation. The NYC used an inductive loop system that was even more bizzare.
BTW - I believe the flatbush Ave line origionally had NYC subway styles trippers on it.
As far as fooling the system, it was probbably done by either holding the acknowlage button/pedal down, or just cutting it out altogether. Of course, today, that doesn't work because the circuitry is sophisticated enough to not let that happen.
I spotted about 15 cars down at Fresh Pond yesterday. I was unable to notice any numbers.
Well it looks like I better keep my eyes and ears open this evening. They'll most likely take the 15 cars over a three day period. 5 Tonight, 5 tomorrow, 5 on Friday. I have yet to see them do multiple deliveries in one day.
-Stef
I did hear horns from the freight train this afternoon. I guess NY&A made a move down to Linden.
Nothing as of yet. Still watching.........
-Stef
SubBus, if you're reading this, Track M north of Jackson Av has a clear lineup going uptown right now. The TA may be doing a late delivery. If a delivery is being done, I'll write back.
-Stef
As of 9:20 tonight, all the cars were still there.
Alright. I guess I'll have to wait until tomorrow to see them.
-Stef
I recently asked Joe Brennan whether the Belmont IRT-LIRR Cutoff at Atlantic Avenue was ever really used or whether it was just another example of subway lore. His response was, as usual, thought-provoking. I thought I'd share it with everyone here:
"The Belmont ride's one and only appearance in print was a line in a
newspaper story about something else decades after the event. It's
unlikely the reporter paid attention to it, and it wasn't someone
claiming to have been on the train or to have seen it. Of such
trivia a legend has been born.
The Manhattan-bound connection appears to have been laid with track at
one time. Surviving track and signal plans do not show a switch in,
but they're not complete, so it may have been in for a short time.
Plans show an outbound connection, before the 1908 station extension;
whether that was built is even more mysterious. Do you know the
Atlantic Avenue Improvement, the joint city-railroad project to get the
Long Island RR off the street, required the railroad to have through or
connecting service to New York? I suspect that link was put there to
hedge on legal requirements. But that's not documented either.
Joe"
Well wheather it was put their by August Belmont for his private use or as a LIRR provision for through or connecting service to New York, the fact remains that it existed. You just have to visit the northbound 7th Ave, i.e. 2/3 platform at Atlantic Ave. They are doing some construction there, so much of the pocket is hidden, but just look left across the tracks at the north end & see the trackways.
Mr t__:^)
Was there supposed to be a tunnel from those trackways under the East River to Manhattan?
In the early 1900s the LIRR & IRT had the same size cars. There was some joint service that existed & planned. I'm not sure if August Belmont's relationship was with the LIRR's Austin Corbin or one of his sucessors. (in the 1870s & 1880s Corbin was associated with the LIRR branch to Manhattan Beach which initially linked with the Bayridge line before finding a more direct way to Manhattan)
Mr t__:^)
Joe theorizes that Belmont didn't use the connection, but that the LIRR built it as a legal hedge against the City's requirement that the LIRR offer through service to Maiden Lane as part of the Atlantic Avenue Improvement. Its beyond dispute that the trackway was built, and a track might have existed. I don't know that it was ever used. There does seem to be some kind of ancient structure behind those temporary walls.
[Do you know the Atlantic Avenue Improvement, the joint city-railroad project to get the
Long Island RR off the street, required the railroad to have through or
connecting service to New York? I suspect that link was put there to
hedge on legal requirements. But that's not documented either.]
Yes, I've seen the original document. One of them resides in the "Brooklyn Collection" at the main branch (Grand Army Plaza) of the Brooklyn Public Library. ASSUME document. The maps are intricately detailed, but must be viewed while using gloves (provided) because of the age of the document.
Xeroxes of the maps are prohibited as the bright flash from the copier could cause damage to the fabric of the fragile paper. Photo-copying of the text pages may be allowed.
BMTman
Where would that outbound connection have been? He(Brennan) doesn't explain.
Carl M.
Is it just me, or does anyone else in the world notice the lurches at the bottom of the Brooklyn bound side of the Cranberry tunnel.
For as long as I can remember riding through that tube, the lurch has been there. It remained after welded rail was installed.
Were where the brains when welded rail was being installed? I beleive some locations with unusual dips or wags could have been addressed and shimmed into correct alignment.
I've watched how new building are kept plumb and level with the use of laser measuring devices set on tripods.
I think the same must be done on track alignments.
The Cranberry tube is signaled for speed! As such , that sudden lurch at the bottom should be corrected for two reasons:
1) Rider safety.
2) Train safety.
How long will THAT lurch lurk in the bowels of the Cranberry Tube?
avid
There's a "lurch" in the middle of the Queens-bound Steinway Tunnel too. If you're at the railfan window, you can see where the tracks bow to the side so you can brace yourself.
I wonder , how much, or what long term effect does this mis alignment have on the rolling stock?
I've watched elderly and younger standees get caught off guard and stagger for balance as they make grabs to keep from falling or leaning into their fellow travelers.
When you hear or read about derailments, it gives one a reason to be concerned.
avid
Some guys on the 7 go through those tubes full throttle. You gotta hold on tight!
That's nuthin' compared to the 60th St. tube. One 63mph R-32 trip through there makes the Steinway tube feel like you're barely going forward. There are too many timers on the '7' line, esp. from Times Sq. to QBP. You could really blast thru there if it weren't for those !@#$%^&* timers!
Well yeah, nothing compares to 60th street tube speedwise. There are lots of timers in the underground portion on the 7.
They have them for that sharp curve between Times Square and 5av, then between 5av and Grand Central (Queens bound) to prevent the trains from overshooting the GCT platform. That is a steep grade.
In the Steinway tubes you have the timers guarding the 1av crossovers (I have no idea why, they are rarely used). At the P you wrap it up, by then most of the momentum is lost.
Manhattan bound is slower because you've got timers all the way to the crossovers, after that it's an uphill climb.
---Qtraindash7----is also at aol.com----->
I've had that experience on the No. 7 where an occasional T/O will blast through the Steinway Tunnel at top speed and yes I've noticed the lurch in the tracks at the midway point in the tunnel. Those are the moments you've got to hang on tight. It is more difficult for me to hang on tight when a train lurches because if you noticed on Sunday's fantrip my body is quite flexible so there are times that I can flop around almost as easily as a ragdoll.
BMTJeff
If memory serves my, i believe there are a few lurches on the Queens Blvd line too.
I wonder if these lurches go back to the original days of construction ,when the ies were first set in concret? Maybe a few were not leveled or settled when the concret was still wet?
Any experts on the CPW dash out there? Any lurches worth mentioning?
avid
The CPW dash doesn't have any lurches (you rang?) that I'm aware of. Put it this way: I never lost my footing on any of the trains of R-10s I rode on along that stretch, and those immortal Thunderbirds were tailor-made for it.
Recently read an article about how kids over the past couple of years have pushed the boundaries and each other to surf the EL's around town. Parts of Brooklyn seemed to be the hotspot for this activity. Have any subfans ever tried this new sport? Many deaths have resulted. Do other cities have this new trend or is this exclusive to NYC?
[Have any subfans ever tried this new sport?]
Nope. "Subfan" would not be the best description for it. Try "daredevil."
Surfing? If you mean attempting to be towed behind or along the train, I call that utter stupidity.
its roof riding. Its outrageous, then again if you do attempt it you deserve....
Train surfing has a sporadic pattern in UK - all Underground stock has had outside door rails etc removed to prevent it - a fovourite place to ride is to hang onto the door handle at car end with one foot on the coupler .... kids are usually picked up on the CCTV system and nicked (arrested) at the next stop.
Train surfing has a sporadic pattern in UK - all Underground stock has had outside door rails etc removed to prevent it - a fovourite place to ride is to hang onto the door handle at car end with one foot on the coupler .... kids are usually picked up on the CCTV system and nicked (arrested) at the next stop.
On the "main line" - its fairly rare - higher speeds discourage this activity - every now and then one tried it - often on the class 465 units used on South London lines - (they have ribbed overide "buffers" which make good surfing points - there was a fatal injury about 6 months ago !.
Was it Steve McQueen who climbed up on a CTA subway car roof in a movie to catch a bad guy?
I guess they forgot to add the subtitle: Kids: do not try this at home...
I've seen photographs of kids hitching a ride on the outside of an old Third Avenue El train in the Bronx back in the late 60s so the stunts wouldn't surprise me.
Eric D. Smith
Kids used to ride in back of cars on the IRTs in the bronx before, I've seen stupid a**es ride on the little platform in front of the door outside trains on the A train before.
Where I grew up (Highbridge, 1960's), kids used to climb onto the backs of buses are ride the bus up the hill from Jerome Avenue. Some them really were too poor to have the change for the farebox.
We've all done that. In the winter we would hang onto the rear bumper of the bus dragging us and sliding along as far as we wanted to go on the snow. It was a hoot; until some kid would poke his eye out. AHHHH memories.
Now you tell me. I did not know that rideing on TOP of trains was started back in the Late 1960's. But I thaught that it was the Late 1980's.
R-27 #3033
I need to clarify that. They weren't on top of the trains but rather on those slim platforms at each end of the cars. Apparently they'd wait for a train to pull out and then hop on. It's a miracle that none of them ever fell into the street because my understanding is that this portion of the Third Avenue El was not a very smooth ride.
Eric Dale Smith
"rideing" But I "thaught" God! what the hell is going on here???????
You're probably right on one point, Riding did not come out of the sixties!
HAHA good one marty
This is fuxing garbage marty, I HOPE no one would even think about it. Its not really a trend, I knew the brother of one of the kids who died ( i think i might have told u this before) on the Sea Beach Train surfing. Most kids are smarter then that. At least I hope so.
Chill dude!!!!
I don't think it's garbage when the media finally reports on it.
It means it's become newsworthy attracting readers consequently selling advertizing.
"Its not really a trend"
Then what would you call it?? An olympic event!
"Most kids are smarter then that."
Generalizing! Again it is a case of the minority tainting this for the majority of our society. We are not talking about most kids here but a few and within that number an even smaller that loose their lives pushing the boundaries. How do you know that most kids are smarter than that?
Are you one of those?
Generalizing! Again it is a case of the minority tainting this for the majority of our society. We are not talking about most kids here but a few and within that number an even smaller that loose their lives pushing the boundaries. How do you know that most kids are smarter than that?
How is he generalizing? Do you believe that most kids are NOT smarter than that?
I'd have to be one to know. Are you, and do you know how "ALL" kids think??
Hmm. Do you think that most kids go surfing, yet there are so few incidents of it?
"yet there are so few incidents of it?"
One is too many in this case, don't you think?
yo PIG how come ur such a smart ass? u single? frustrated? what is it?Fat?
Uh, He's always like that. It's just his way of expressing himself. You'll get used to it. I had to.
u know damn well i am man, haha u right man this is a fun thread
The top of the train is the worst place to ride, followed by between the cars. All subway surfers should recieve automatic nominations for the Darwin Award.
I have had two experiences with train surfing. In 1982 I was called to the scene of one such incident. A young man who thought it would be cool to ride the roof of a #1 train. I'm not sure where he got on but I know he did not get off on his own. He was scraped off after he made it to 191 St. where he was crushed under a footbridge that spans the station. Not long after, 3 teens were riding an R-10 on CPW. One of them thought it would be cool to hold a note up to the window from the outside, while the train was in motion, to impress his girlfriend. He learned the hard way that it was not the greatest idea when he didn't fit between the car and a signal (at 40 MPH).
I have thoughts on the subject. Don't do it BUT if you do decide this is worth the thrill, take out MUCH insurance and name me as a benificiary.
I often wonder about these type of characters. I mean, most of us want to ride trains on the outside, we just think better of it that's all. Now one of the things I did before I left New York was to sit on the stairs of an old LIRR car with the door open as it sped towards Montauk Point. Seeing the countryside roll by from that perspective is breathtaking but in hindsight quite stupid so I wouldn't advise anyone to try it.
Eric Dale Smith
Train surfing started in Brazil in the 1980s. Kids would ride on the top of commuter trains. It was even more dangerous and stupid in Brazil because the trains are powered by a catenary system. The railroad tried to dissuade the practice by displaying gruesome photos of train surfing fatalities, which only encouraged more train surfing. So the US and UK don't have a monopoly on idiots.
In the early 90s, Morrison Knudsen was bidding on rebuilding & running the Buenos Aires system. The head of the system went on a tour of one maintenance shop that they wanted to use as a model for a new shop to be built there. he was amazed at the amount of testing and maintenance done on the door system as well as the indication systems. He said the people there would never accept trains with closed doors.
N b c news had a segment on this train surfing a few years ago showing the kids in Brazil ontop of the cars in fact it mentioned that some kids were electrocuted when the high voltage current literly picked them up off the cars at some points on the line,killing them instantly...a sure way to cure the habit.
For once I agree with Him, Oh yea and try not to ride on the door platform outside the train.
Hey, marty? Are you curious? I suggest you come down to the N train at Coney Island ride and give it a whirl!*
Subway Surfing is what gave the SeaBeach Line much recent -- and unwanted publicity.
BMTman
*calm down guys I'm being scarcastic here...
hummmmmmmmmm!!!Anybody wanna show me??
Coney and surfing go hand in hand!!
didnt u tell me u wanna die by getting shot in the head from behind in an empty lot?
Does anyone know where I can get, or at least view old SEPTA Regional
Rail timetables, primarily from the early and mid 1980's before and
after the Center City Commuter Tunnel was completed? Of the pre-
Commuter Tunnel timetables, I'm mostly interested in the Pennsy side
(Chester/Marcus Hook, Media/West Chester, etc.). Any help would be
greatly appreciated. Thanks.
About 2 O'Clock Monday afternoon I saw a train of R-142s on the Pelham line while I was driving in the Hutchinson River Parkway. It appeared that they were pulling in to the Middletown Road. station. I couldn't tell what car Nos. they were because I was too far away.
BMTJeff
Today at about 0900 I rode an R-142 train on the 6. I got off a 4 train after letting a 5 go at fulton st. due to over crowding (the 4 wasnt much better). then rode to 14st Union Square,I let a redbird 6 go by followed by an r-62 6 Express ( will someone explain that to me? Lexington local express?) and then finally caught an R-142. Can someone tell my why NOTHING WORKS IN THOSE CARS???????. and why the hell does the "stand Clear of the closing doors please" announcement so fuxing cheery? who da hell designed those trains? those canadian and japanese dudes better go back to the drawing boards.
the meaning of lexington local/express-local in manhattan, express in the bronx. What do you meen nothin works in these cars? be more specific. most things in these cars were perfected. got a problem with the cheery announcements? most customers don't. its meant to sound cheery so customers feel like they are being treated well (not that it is working to give them good moods) anyway, you can't blame Kawasaki and Bombardier for the technology and software they didn't provide. blame Telecite. however both models have announcements different in tones, one sounds much friendlier and upbeat than the other.
That's the Pelham Express we're referring to.
i know thats what i said in the post you responded to
Check.
the side-signs didnt work, also the internal information LED didnt work. it kept flashing red. at grand central the announecemnt was this " 42nd street Grand Central Trasnfers avalible for the one, two ,TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTHHHH, beeb , thump." and thats all. it was wierd.
HEHEHEHE........
the side-signs didnt work, also the internal information LED didnt work. it kept flashing red. at grand central the announecemnt was this " 42nd street Grand Central Trasnfers avalible for the one, two ,TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTHHHH, beeb , thump." and thats all. it was wierd. OK FINE IT GOT MESSED UP, HOW THA F*** U TRANSFER TO WEST SIDE IRTs at GRAND CENTRAL?????? the lady conductor didnt bother to announce the station prperly
oh i see. that was the problem with the Kawasaki R-142A. its been doing that for a while. they corrected the anouncements but, the signs are screwing up and not displaying. i guess the announcements are now going through the phase of distortion. of course the conductor didn't anounce the transfers correctly. they are annoyed with the job, and customers and don't feel like telling anybody anything.
should i press the emergency intercom system next time and complain?
yes you can if you wanna get a bad reply for bothering the t.o.'s over non working signs, or get into trouble for crying wolf. your complaints aren't an emergency and they will only fix the problem when the trains terminates its uptown or downtown ride.
Speaking of the R142's, I was up near Unionport Yard when I saw on the relay tracks (on the other side of the 5 train elevated track) a diesel loco pulling cars #6481-6485. That means that #6471-6480 are here already or are being delivered. #6486-6495 are going to be sent sometime within the next week, I guess.
CWalNYC
speaking of these trains, do you know that there were 10 kawasaki R-142A's running today? its impressive to see them run. hope the bombardiers start up on monday. i pretty much like them better.
What differences are there between the Bomabardier cars and the Kawasaki cars? I thought riders weren't supposed to notice.
the everyday rider will not know because they aren't into subway cars. however they are different from the ground up. the bogies are different, the bodies are different and the announcements are different. the interiors are different. when i say everything is different i mean everything. including the traction motors, and underpinnings. everything. if you ride the Bomb and the Kaw when they are both running in service you will able to see the difference. one easy difference you will see is that the Kawasaki has ads on their walls and the Bombardier doesn't. another is the acceleration. the Kawasaki has a funny wind up, while the Bombardier plays a melody. (sort of) the last one you will know is the build quality. Bombardier's are solid and silent, you also can't hear the traction motors when you riding one. the Kawasaki's build quality is marginal. when you ride you will loose or missing screws, quaking creeking and squeaking, knocking and other sorts, you can also hear the traction motors(though that doesn't bother me) there's a whole list but you will just have to see for yourself because the list is too long. my prediction(listen to that word carefully)is that at least one bombardier train will enter service. you will able to see differences then. i'm looking for it on monday.
doesnt really matter to me to tell you the truth
HE HEHEH
Neither the Canadians or the Japanese designed those cars they only built them. The cars themselves were probably designed by the T/A.
If nithing worked in the R-142s rest assure they wouldn't be in service. You should remember that the cars are new and there are going to be some problems with them.
BMTJeff
Not only can u get speeds of 80 on the babylon branch, but between Jamaica to Valley stream, the Far Rockaway and Long beach branches get an 80 code. I do believe the supervision wants u to do 70 though, because of curves. But Far Rock branch gets an 80 Code. And although DE30's can go 80, they can come to 0 pretty quick! I rode a DE30 from LIC to Jamaica, and he flew until he got to Jay tower. All of a sudden, he slowed down VERY quickly! those Disc brakes are pretty nice!
Sunday night I was riding R142A Car #7250 (of 7250-7241) northbound on the 6. I boarded at 14th Street, everything ran smoothly, however we was rolling very fast, AND BOOM it happens we over rode the platform at 86th Street by 1 and 1/2 cars. As we entered the station, about halfway into the platform, I hear the T/O say "Oh Shit", and then two buzzers went off and then we were in the tunnel, 1 and 1/2 cars deep.
I thought this was histerical, but the other passengers that need to get off in the first car were pretty steamed. The T/O was screaming at the Conductors to open all doors like it was his fault. Eventually the conductor opened the last 5 cars and the T/O keyed out the second cars last door and the other three cars. Hmmm, Looks like we have some speed demons on our hands.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
In one of the newspaper articles about the R142's it said there were some breaking problems....
But speed is playing a factor too!
Trevor
You mean you actually heard the T/O say what he said?
The Multisectionals had braking problems of their own. Sounds like deja vu all over again, in the immortal words of Yogi Berra.
I'd love to be on one of those trains when it gets up to 60 on one of the two express straightaways.
Yes, loud and clear, he said "Oh Shit!"
I believe we were doing every bit of 55 or above when we entered the station. When we entered 86th, the first couple of feet, by looking out the window felt like a #2 Express going downtown. I though we were bypassing the station, until I felt the slow down, and then heard the T/O's comments.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
First ya say it, then you do it.
ooh chi wally! that must have been funny! i'm not surprised at how fast he was going. those A's hauls ass through the lex ave. local. tunnel. it feels like its doing almost 50 bofore entering the next station.
It's the ride. It's too smooth. The T/O doesn't feel the usual shake, rattle and roll and doesn't realize how fast s/he is going unless s/he looks at the speedo.
If that train was really doing 55+ entering 86 St, it was not so much bad braking as a failed governor.
Sounds as if you had to be there.
A car and a half? Man he really blew that one.
Hmm when the conductor passed his marker board, why didn't he pull the Cord?? At a car and a half over shoot the thing should have wized by.
Opps I forgot doesn't the brake cord cut out after the train has moved halfway out of the station??
A C/R really does not want to "bang in" his T/O in the event of a station overrun unless he has no other choice. And vice versa, a T/O never wants to "bang in" his C/R. The two work together and try to protect each other in the event something goes wrong.
The only instances that a crew member should bang in his partner is whenever the incident causes an injury or if supervision is known to be on board the train or on the platform in question (and you don't know them). In those cases, there is no other option other than to call it in, otherwise the both of them immediately hang.
Obviously it would be helpful if mistakes were handled in the full context of each individual situation, offered as learning opportunities ("tuition for success") and responses are not intended only as punishment. Similarly, it would be nice if train crews were open and honest with supervision and supervision were open and honest with train crews. This way, terms like "rat" and "bang in" might not be used as much...
I'm such an optimist...
Gee....i hope the t/o didn't read the zman's posts on how to work the signals and goofed.......
Uh boy. You should change your handle to "Karl the Komedian" :)
Hay........that's not a bad idea....thanks...( just kidding ) hey ya never know.........maby he did ?
This comes under the unwritten commandments:
"Thou shalt not fink"
That's a little simplistic. In the situation as described, that would also be dangerous. At least one person on the train is likely to report the incident - to the TA - to the media - or post it on a website. The T/O may or may not have been at fault (although he/she must have the train under control at all times). However, once the C/R and the T/O fail to report the incident, they compound the damage.
But, Mr.Dude if you look at it from the point of view of the train crew, 20 to 30 days in the street with no pay is something that everyone wants to avoid. So when the sh*t hits the fan, you do your best to cover it up. Of course you do it at your own risk and keep your fingers crossed that no one on board rats you out.
Human nature is human nature. It must be very hard to bang in a guy that you work with every day. Then again, when you have to come ome and tell your wife that you'll be without pay for 4 weeks Or you gave up 4 weeks vacation because you didn't report your partner, will she be so sympathetic. After all we're employeed by the TA but we work for our families.
That's true, it's a double edged sword.
But while you take the risk by protecting your partner, you also look at it like this if you're a train crew member: When the day comes that you screw up (and rest assured you eventually will), you hope that your partner looks out for you in the same fashion that you did for him.
If I may jump in again, I didn't mean to be overly simplistic. I was trying being a little humorous. Seriously, I feel that "everything is a situation." By that I mean one has to consider all of the factors (and there could be a lot of them) in any given incident. For example, I feel a mistake like slightly overshooting the platform with a new piece of equipment does not warrent my ass being nailed to the floorboards--as long as I was not intoxicated, incapaciated (tired, sick, etc.) or a chronic offender. Yes, I made a mistake, but covering up in this case does not hurt anyone. Make sure the passengers from the lead car get out OK, move on. Often, the punishment does not fit the crime, and that is why the rank-and-file is quick to want to 'cover it up.' An 'us vs. them' mentality is not a good thing, but given the TA's response to situations like this it is understandable.
Oops, sorry about the typos in the beginning of my last post. I want to add this: In 1981 I was on the CC, running a train of R-10's light out of Rock Park to set it up for the shuttle. Rounding a curve, I had the controller in power off, just coasting with no brake. Command Center calls me on the radio. I reach down to answer, and the mike slips out of my hand. Instead of just reaching around for it I made the mistake of looking down to pick it up. I was new on the job at the time, so I was still a little awkward behind the handles. Well, I picked up the mike and started to answer, and at the same time saw the automatic signal was red...too late. Boomph. Well, I just said, "oh, s**t!" Recharged. Moved on, lesson learned. Never did that again. Well, in this day and age, I would be s**ting my pants figuring I would be suspended, if not fired. Different age, different climate, different attitudes from people.
19 years? Didn't think that you had that much time under your belt.
If your instance were to happen today, as long as the signal that you hit wasn't one of those brand new alarm signals, you'd be fine considering that you had a light train.
Hi Zman,
I'm off the job now, I wound up with a total of 5 years as a M/M. Left just before the R62's came into full service. I had a good time, and some opportunities came along, so I made the decision to leave. I'm doing well, I miss the trains, but you and the rest of the good people on this board keep my spirits up.
Regards,
Marc
I hate to tell you how many incidents of violations of the old Rule G which now has a number...meaning being intoxicated and expanded to include drug use we covered up for our "brothers" back in the wild and wooly days on freight railroads, OK let me specify the BN, in the late 70's. On one trip I don't know how we didn't all get killed. Engineer was WASTED and shame on me as head brakeman for not pulling the air; but the rear end knew what was going ontoo, they did nothing, and because the souse [nice enough man otherwise] couldn't keep off the radio supervision was waiting when we got in. A verbal warning given but no action ever taken. Typical then.
I don't think the conductor is required to pull the conductor's
valve in the case of a simple overshoot. It's another thing
if the train blows past the board and the m/m doesn't appear to
be stopping.
On the R142 cars, the conductor does still have a real c/r valve
that really dumps the brake pipe. It's only the passenger's
emergency brake cord which has been castrated.
Here is the procedure in the event of a station overrun:
1) Upon sensing that the train is going to overrun the station, the T/O gives one long buzzer to the C/R (means not to open the doors in this instance)
2) The C/R activates the Emergency Brake Valve
3) The T/O places the brake handle into the emergency position
4) The C/R notifies the Control Center of the station overrun
5) The T/O notifies the Control Center of the reason for the overrun
6) The C/R opens the rear section of the train and proceeds toward the front of the train and keys open the crew doors in the front section of the train
7) The T/O proceeds towards the rear of the train and assists the C/R in helping passengers in the front section to leave the train
8) When all passengers disembark, the T/O and C/R then begin to close the crew doors in the front section
9) When the C/R and T/O reach their respective positions, the C/R closes the rear section of the train and the T/O charges the train up
10) After notifying the Control Center that the train is about to proceed, the C/R gives the T/O two buzzers to proceed and the T/O performs his required brake tests and the train continues in service
11) Upon reaching the terminal, the T/O is then checked for fitness for duty
Thats it in a nutshell
What happens if there is an overrun but still platform? Like, if a train pulls up to the end of the station instead of the 10 marker?
I once had a G line T/O who was incredibly sloppy with the stopping. It appeared as if his thinking was "as long as it's between 8 and 10 I'm good". The C/R probably stopped looking for a board and instead listened for the buzzer.
If you pass the 10 but stay fully in the station, all the T/O needs to do is give the C/R two buzzers. That's all.
This morning while traveling to Main street on a 7 train car # 9381 very bad brakes no dynamics. I saw a mixed consist on a manhattan bound 7 Exp to Times Square. The consist was as follows South Motor. 9718 9719 9373 9372 9555 9554 9456 9457 9331 9609 9608 North Motor. Please note that 9554 is now wearing RED DIAMONDS on the black stickers. 9555 still has the YELLOW stickers no diamonds?? on 1 side of the car. It looks like the 7 line will now use RED diamonds instead of PURPLE.
Corona Yard now has many variations to the stickers below the number plate: black with purple diamond, yellow with purple diamond, double width black with no diamond, now black with RED diamond! I wonder when Corona will make up their minds!
What happened to the live chat last Saturday? Is there going to be one this Saturday?
If I can remember the password to my webspace, I'm putting up a connection instructions page.
For now: server irc.cjb.net, port 6667, channel #metrocard
I will ONLY hold the chat on Saturday if I have commitments from three people now.
I would use the live chat at saturday
Whilst cruisng through the 14th St.-Eastern subway this past Sunday morning (3/18), a new installation of thick coaxial cable was noted at various points between Lorimer St. and Myrtle Ave. Some locations have loose brackets, there was new conduit work in the concrete track bed here & there, and it looks like some track coil locations are marked out.
These are, I believe, the first baby steps in a process which will bring the R-143s onto the L line within a couple of years.
I hope the TA has better luck than they've had in Newark!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The Daily News had this story today on the report on the death of the 3-year-old boy who fell out of the open end door on the Q train last year. Without seeing the report, it's hard to say if it's a complete and unbiased invrestigation, or if there's a little butt-covering due to the $20 million suit filed against the MTA.
Daily News story on Manny B Slant 40 death
>>Without seeing the report, it's hard to say if it's a complete and unbiased invrestigation...<<
While what happened was a tragedy that I'm sure Austin Mei's mother would have liked to have avoided, it was her fault. She allowed her 3 year old son to stand away from her on a door that she knew could be opened. What if someone walked by just before a curve, and when they rounded it, the door stayed open and the boy fell out. Point was she should have been watching him more closely. He obviously had to be close to the door. Youngsters have a tendency to fall easily, and he would not have staggered far enough to fall out of the door had he been a reasonable distance away. Had he been sitting on her lap, or holding onto a standee pole next to her, this sad tragedy would've been avoided.
The door should have been locked. There is no reason to have doors unlocked. Up here in Boston all doors are locked. as for south ferry passengers should just have to board on the front five cars to get out.
[The door should have been locked. ]
It would be even more safer to run no subway at all!
Arti
what good does haveing unlocked doors do?
Picture this scenerio, you're on a train in New York City. It's 3PM when kids are getting out. You happen to be railfanning the A Line out in the Rockaway. You enter Beach 67 Street. Some really rowdy kids get on. This start getting sour between 2 kids. They're friends are just sparking it by jumping into the verbal fight. This gets heated. You enter Broad Channel. Everything still seems normal. The doors close. You pull out of the station. They next thing you know, fists go flying. Then you see one pull out a knife to threaten the others. You gently get up toward the storm door. To your dismay, the door is locked. Do you feel very comfortable in this situation.
in Boston the Storm doors are interlocked. You can open them if the Emergnecy Brake is pulled. In that case I would pull the brake and walk to the front of the Train.
That is smart, pull the brake cord and stop the train. HOW IN THE WORLD are the police going to get to you if you stop the train no where near a station. Much easier and faster for the person chasing you "to the front of the train" then for cops to get to you after you pull the cord.
Pull the cord only if someone is in danger from the TRAIN itself, like falling between cars or stuck in doors. NOT to get police help!!!
>>> You pull out of the station. They next thing you know, fists go flying. Then you see one pull out a knife to threaten the others. You gently get up toward the storm door. To your dismay, the door is locked <<<
And how often has this happened to you? In all the time I rode the subways in New York, there has never been a time when I felt there was an urgent need to leave one subway car to get to another that could not wait until the train stopped at a station. The closest thing to that happening was when a rowdy group of teenagers got on a train leaving Coney Island. Since it was a standard I had no choice but to wait for the next station.
OTOH I like the fact that you can move between cars to find a less crowded car to get a seat, or to walk through the train to get to the rail fan window. Before air conditioning, when the end doors were frequently left open in hot weather, I would often ride between cars where there was a breeze, particularly if the train was crush loaded at rush hour. This was a pleasant, not a frightening experience.
Tom
Distributing passangers, escaping from a car without AC....
This concept is time proven, should it be stopped by the advance of a new thought that design criteria is to accomodate the .001 % of the stupid people?
Arti
"It would be even more safer to run no subway at all!"
Well, not necessarily,, because if this lady had been driving a car with her son they would, statistically, have been more likely to get into a fatal accident in a car. The subway is far safer than driving. I didn't mention walking because this lady was not going somewhere within walking distance.
Hey, I was "tounge in cheek"
Arti
OK. I missed it.
By the way, that's "tongue" to you...:0)
LOL :-)
Arti
Anyone that thinks they can make something foolproof - underestimates the abilities of a fool. On the cars where the end doors are locked, people force them open. Maybe we should mandate child safety seats for kids under 6. Maybe simply ban kids under 6 all together. Better yet, make "Common Sense" training and "Parenting" classes mandatory before we allow the less intelligent of us to breed.
Better yet, make "Common Sense" training and "Parenting" classes mandatory before we allow the less intelligent of us to breed.
Since sexual breeding is on its way out (what kind of irresponsible parent would leave their child to the chance of sexual conception one or two decades from now?) that is certainly possible.
All that would do however, is allow people with the "wrong" kind of views to be prevented from breeding. All of those fringe people like atheists, anarchists, communists or Democrats*, would just be weeded out by exams. That's why voting competency exams are unconstitutional.
* Can just as easily be Republicans
All of those fringe people like atheists, anarchists, communists or Democrats*, would just be weeded out by exams. That's why voting competency exams are unconstitutional.
Just to correct the historical record, they were banned because they were used as a tool to discriminate against blacks -- not people with incorrect beliefs. (Whites were exempt from taking the test because their grandparents had been eligible to vote. Henced the term "grandfathered" to mean exempt.)
A blue ribbon committee must be formed to select those suitable for breeding.
Only those with railfans or subwayfans in their family trees will be permitted to breed.
Rail and subway employees will be rewarded for their breeding performance and encouraged to to breed wiss other transit employees regardless of sexual preference. The purpose is to breed the super transit fan and super transit employee. The Transit Kinder will be taught transit lingo, history, art , math ,and most important TRANSIT PHILOSOPHY!
Their young bodies will be toughened by running up and down escalaters out of service. They will be taught to spit and hit the far rail. They will memorize the location of all Grade Timers. The will be able to read a subway map upside down in poor light.
They will be worthy in every way!
avid
And before they graduate from middle school, they will have to pass an exam where, among other things, they will have to recite every design difference between the Slant R-40, the rebuilt R-40 and the R-42.
LOL
The pure transit child will have these racial qualities,
1) thin narrow face for jamming between closing doors, long upper limbs for hanging and doing pull-ups on grab rails, flat noses and slopped brow for pressing against fan window. Pointed elbows for squirming into advantagous position at fan window.
avid
Any child would look that way after completing Middle School Phys. Ed. requirements (pull-ups on the bars of an R-38, running laps in an R-46 as it rounds a curve, taking escalator steps 3 at a time the wrong way, etc.) At least one such phys ed class per semester.
And memorize the electrical schematics of all car classes from R-22 to R-68.
BMTman
I love curriculum development...
To open a storm door on the R-44 or the R-46 Pull up on the handle then slide on the handle. It is not very hard, to open the next foor, Don't pull the lever, just force door open form outide, its easier from outside then inside. For some rason this procedure is easier on R-44, on R-46 sometimes you need a screw Driver, insert pull up then pullup on the handle then sliiiiiiiide over to open door.
I'd love to see if someone figures out how to open the doors on the R-110B...
Leave the doors unlocked. Only a retard is going to attempt to change cars like that. As it has been discussed before, people are trapped on the cars between stations and there is some person who is going to rob them and they have no way out. IMO, when taking children on the subway, parents need to take common sense on board with them. A subway is not a playground but some children and their parents don't understand that.
(As it has been discussed before, people
are trapped on the cars between stations and there is some person who is going to rob them and they have no way out.)
I f you have a door interlock where you can open the door if you pull the lever you can pass between cars. If you feel I cime is going to be commited against you you would be right to pull the emergnecy brake.
If you feel I cime is going to be commited against you you would be right to pull the emergnecy brake.
And strand yourself where police intervention is impossible. I'd hate to travel w/ you.
(And strand yourself where police intervention is impossible.)
You are assuming that there is no police officer on the train most trains have at least 1 cop on them. Once you pull the brake it doesn't take long to get the train started again. you will get away from the offenders by moving to another car.
>>> most trains have at least 1 cop on them <<<
Maybe in Boston, but not in NYC uless is near watch change.
Tom
I agree with this point.
Why blame the MTA for having open doors on a subway? The kid could just have easily been killed in some other fashion. No one is really to blame here, not the mother, who, in hindsight, should have kept a closer rein on her kid (not easy to do all the time with a 3-year-old), and not the MTA, who when they lock doors like on the newer D's and F's, people complain about them.
I remember a friend of mine in college had a key to open the doors on the F. It was SO cool.
PPS
The report is by the PTSB. This si not an organ of the MTA and many of the investigators have little love for the TA. If it's biased, it's usually biased the other way. We beat this subject to death here a few months ago. I don't think anyone here thought the mother was blameless. This report should come as no suprise.
The slant of the News article said that the report actulay blamed in part the Mother. Gawd For Bid the mother should have any responsibility for her son.
The mother's lawyer is doing his job, but it really sounds to me like the mother made a mistake and paid dearly for it. The TA is not responsible here, but in a society where you can file a lawsuit for anything (and lawyers will take cases on contigency) you lose nothing by suing. At worst you lose (and the TA spent taxpayer dollars defending the case); at best you get a jury whose members agree with you, increasing the probability of a settlement. With the TA, that settlement holds all of us hostage.
I'm not saying the TA is never negligent. Sometimes it is. Not in this case, though.
and lawyers will take cases on contigency
Not all lawyers!
Works on Contingency?
No, Money Down!
that Lionel Hunts is great.
>>> I'm not saying the TA is never negligent. Sometimes it is. Not in this case, though <<<
That is not necessarily true. The facts will come out in the lawsuit. The door unexpectedly flying open by itself was a dangerous condition. TA liability will rest on whether it was due to poor maintenance or inspection, or whether it was caused by something the TA could not have foreseen*. An analogy is the classic supermarket slip and fall case, where a customer slips on something on the floor. If the substance has been there long enough for the store to reasonably detect it (a dangerous condition), and they fail to clean it up or at least warn the customers the store will be found liable.
Tom
*Classic Palsgraff for those afflicted with a legal education.
Your analysis is essentially correct. However, end doors opening and closing are a relatively common occurrence (I've certainly seen it happen many times) and the boy could have slipped out even if a person had opened the door seeking to enter or exit the car. Hence, this is not a deficient condition per se.
If the jury believes the mother had essentially abdicated responsibility for her child's safety to the TA, they may decide against awarding her anything. The judge could also set aside a jury verdict if he/she is so inclined, though judges do not want to do so.
It's not likely, but having served on a jury myself a couple of times, I can tell you first hand that stranger things have been known to happen.
>>> end doors opening and closing are a relatively common occurrence (I've certainly seen it happen many times) and the boy could have slipped out even if a person had opened the door seeking to enter or exit the car. Hence, this is not a deficient condition per se. <<<
I have never ridden on the more modern cars, and when I was riding, end doors were frequently left in the open position. Comparing a door opening because someone operated the handle to open it is a far different situation than having the door open by itself when it appears to be latched. Even when the doors were left open, it was a rare occasion for a door to open by itself. If that is now a common occurance, it shows very poor maintenance procedures.
To suggest that because a person could have opened the door, there is no fault if the door unexpectedly opens by itself is foolish. That could be a defense if the door had been opened by a passenger, but it was not. If the mother had seen a passenger opening the door, either from inside the car, or through the storm door window she would have some warning to grab the child.
The side doors have signs on them saying "do not lean on the doors", (or at least they used to), but if a side door opened while the train was underway and a passenger fell out (either an adult or child) the TA would certainly have some liability.
To say the TA should have no liability in this situation is premature until all the facts are known. I of course have no knowledge of all the facts and neither do you. Here are two hypothetical extreme scenarios which could result in different verdicts:
Scenario #1: The evidence shows that the C/R walked the length of the train within one hour before that accident trying each storm door and finding that all of them, including this door latched properly. An inspection of the door after the accident finds fresh chewing gum stuffed into the receptacle where the door latch is supposed secure the door preventing a secure connection. Juveniles were seen fooling with door shortly before the accident.
Scenario #2: Maintenance records show that for the past three months C/Rs and inspectors have been complaining about a defective latch on the door that came open. Two of the reports were extensive and pointed out that this was a severe safety hazard because the door could come open unexpectedly and a small child could fall out. One report suggested that if the door latch could not be repaired immediately, the door should be locked. In response there was a memo from management stating it was too minor a problem to take the married pair of cars out of service, and no parts were immediately available to make the repairs. The request to lock the door was denied because it would inconvenience the customers who wanted to go from car to car. A penciled note in the margin said "let the parents look out for their own damned ankle biters."
Neither of us know what the true facts are. Obviously they are probably somewhere between the two hypothetical scenarios above. The door was designed not to come open by itself, therefore it was defective. Why it came open (i.e. the nature of the defect), and whether it was foreseeable to the TA, and whether they made reasonable efforts to find and repair defective door latches will all be considered in determining TA liability.
>>> If the jury believes the mother had essentially abdicated responsibility for her child's safety to the TA, they may decide against awarding her anything <<<
The jury instructions are not going to give the jury the chance to make that kind of finding. The TA has responsibility for the safety of all its riders. The jury will be asked to find if the TA was negligent in the inspection, maintenance and operation of the equipment, which led to the child being killed. If there was no negligence then the case is over and the TA pays nothing. If they do find there was negligence, then they will be asked whether the mother's actions or inactions were negligent and contributed to the result. The damages will be reduced by the percent fault the jury ascribes to the mother.
Tom
"I have never ridden on the more modern cars, and when I was riding, end doors were frequently left in the open position. Comparing a door opening because someone operated the handle to open it is a far different situation than having the door open by itself when it appears to be latched."
That depends on what you're trying to prove.
"Even when the doors were left open, it was a rare occasion for a door to open by itself. If that is now a common occurance, it shows very poor maintenance procedures."
While my experience has been different than yours, I generally agree with you.
"If the mother had seen a passenger opening the door, either from inside the car, or through the storm door window she would have some warning to grab the child."
The mother appears to have let her child wander too far for her to react even if she had warning. All he had to be was out of reach of outstretched arms. She has some fault for that regardless of any other condition.
"The side doors have signs on them saying "do not lean on the doors", (or at least they used to), but if a side door opened while the train was underway and a passenger fell out (either an adult or child) the TA would certainly have some liability."
They still say that (or something equivalent). Whether the TA would be liable in the event of an accident would depend on the circumstances around which the doors opened. It would also depend, in practical terms, on the jury selected.
>>> If the jury believes the mother had essentially abdicated responsibility for her child's safety to the TA, they may decide against awarding her anything <<<
"The jury instructions are not going to give the jury the chance to make that kind of finding."
You don't know what the judge will tell the jury. And just because the judge tells the jury something, it doesn't mean the jury will follow instructions as intended. Having served on juries, I can tell you first hand nothing works exactly as laid out in theory.
"The TA has responsibility for the safety of all its riders. The jury will be asked to find if the TA was negligent in the inspection, maintenance and operation of the equipment, which led to the child being killed."
The TA has the responsibility of doing everything possible to run a safe subway system. It is not responsible for parents' negligence. If the mother, for example, had allowed her child to pass through the end doors to a different car, and had stayed in the car she was originally riding in, would the TA automatically be responsible if the child were injured in that second car?
I like the two extreme scenarios you laid out, and I agree this one probably falls in between them. I also agree that neither of us knows exactly what happened, so we're speculating here on the site as a mental exercise.
Perhaps the TA should invest in another sign on subway trains, such as "Children under the age of X must be closely supervised by a responsible adult at all times." There should be a photograph of a mother firmly holding her child's hand Where should it put this sign? To the side of at least one side door? To the side of an end door?
>>> The mother appears to have let her child wander too far for her to react even if she had warning <<<
We do not know that. If the same lurch of the train that opened the door propelled the child out of the train, even if the child were within an arm's length of the mother, it would be too late for her to grab the child. If there had been enough reaction time, it is probable that the closest adult would have grabbed the child. I doubt that even New Yorkers, who never want to get involved, would allow a child to just slide past them out an open train door. Again, neither of us knows how far the child was from the mother. Only having a physical grip on the child prior to the event could have prevented it.
>>> You don't know what the judge will tell the jury. And just because the judge tells the jury something, it doesn't mean the jury will follow instructions as intended. Having served on juries, I can tell you first hand nothing works exactly as laid out in theory. <<<
Jury instructions are not made up on the spot by the judge. The lawyers each pick the instructions they want from a published list, and discuss any modification with the judge. The lawyers know before the evidence starts what the instructions will be and tailor the evidence that they present to fit them.
I too have served on juries and know it axiomatic among lawyers that you never know what a jury will do. Some times a jury focuses on a small detail that neither attorney thought was important. However, most juries tend to err toward sympathy for injured (or grieving) plaintiffs rather than toward an agency of government or a big corporation.
>>> The TA has the responsibility of doing everything possible to run a safe subway system. It is not responsible for parents' negligence. <<<
That is why the first question for a jury is whether the TA did anything wrong. Then the jury considers whether the mother was negligent to reduce the award. This is called "comparative negligence." Until the early 70s, most U.S. jurisdictions used the standard of "contributory negligence." which required that if the plaintiff did anything to contribute to the accident there could be no recovery at all. When you say that the mother's negligence caused the child's death you are applying the contributory negligence standard.
>>> If the mother, for example, had allowed her child to pass through the end doors to a different car, and had stayed in the car she was originally riding in, would the TA automatically be responsible if the child were injured in that second car? <<<
Absolutely IF the thing that caused the injury was do to negligence of the TA. Examples: If there is exposed electrical wiring in the second car which the child touches and is electrocuted (ok, I don't know how that could happen either), or grease on the floor left there by a TA employee which the child slips on, or the ceiling falls on him. If the danger in the second car could have been avoided if the mother was there, then there is contributory negligence, if it couldn't, then the fact that she was not there would not matter.
>>> I also agree that neither of us knows exactly what happened, so we're speculating here on the site as a mental exercise. <<<
Each speculation should state the assumed facts it is based on. If it doesn't then it is just a waste of time to write it and to read it.
>>> Perhaps the TA should invest in another sign on subway trains, such as "Children under the age of X must be closely supervised by a responsible adult at all times." <<<
They could not do that. But then they would have Pork suing them for ageism. :-^) BTW. I started riding the subways alone at age six, using the marker lights to determine the trains' destination (before I could read), and before that when traveling with my mother, she would allow me to go to the rail fan window while she remained seated in the middle of the car. I was taught to always try the handle on the storm door when I first got there to see if the door would open, before leaning on it, or using the handle as a hand hold (a couple of times I found them unlocked). Of course standards of what was considered parental neglect back then were a lot looser than they are now. I was a latch key kid who crossed 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Avenues by myself regularly, and played along the edge of the East River from kindergarten on.
Tom
"We do not know that. If the same lurch of the train that opened the door propelled the child out of the train, even if the child were within an arm's length of the mother, it would be too late for her to grab the child. If there had been enough reaction time, it is probable that the closest adult would have grabbed the child. I doubt that even New Yorkers, who never want to get involved, would allow a child to just slide past them out an open train door. Again, neither of us knows how far the child was from the mother. Only having a physical grip on the child prior to the event could have prevented it."
I would hope that people would not be so callous; then again, I witnessed a man flying by me on the staircase at City Hall station (Broad Street Line, Philly). He leaped from a crowded platform between two cars of a moving train, slipped and was dangling between the cars, his feet close to the trackway. As I raced over to the transit police intercom and reported the situation, I noticed that no one else did anything. There were bored looks, yawning, shuffling of newspapers. That bothered me, I admit. He evidently pulled himself up (that was a miracle; the train was entering a sharp curve beyond the station) because I boarded the next train and there were no delays.
"Jury instructions are not made up on the spot by the judge. The lawyers each pick the instructions they want from a published list, and discuss any modification with the judge. The lawyers know before the evidence starts what the instructions will be and tailor the evidence that they present to fit them."
I'm aware of that. Again, because you have three people interacting, you have no assurance that your previous assertion is correct. Likely, maybe, but not assured.
>>> (Ron's quote)Perhaps the TA should invest in another sign on subway trains, such as "Children under the age of X must be closely supervised by a responsible adult at all times." <<<
"They could not do that."
Why not?
>>> I'm not saying the TA is never negligent. Sometimes it is. Not in this case, though <<<
That is not necessarily true. The facts will come out in the lawsuit. The door unexpectedly flying open by itself was a dangerous condition. TA liability will rest on whether it was due to poor maintenance or inspection, or whether it was caused by something the TA could not have foreseen*. An analogy is the classic supermarket slip and fall case, where a customer slips on something on the floor. If the substance has been there long enough for the store to reasonably detect it (a dangerous condition), and they fail to clean it up or at least warn the customers the store will be found liable.
Tom
*Classic Palsgraf for those afflicted with a legal education.
Can someone explain to me this whole "whiplashing" effect on the 75' cars whicgive the MTA to lock the doors on those cars? Thanks in advance.
Seven
I think it's because since the 75' cars are longer, when they take a curve, the cars bend more than a train of shorter cars on the same curve. Therefore, the 75' cars will bend more rapidly than 60' cars at the same speed. Can anyone confirm this?
Whether they bend more rapidly would have to be worked out, but they certainly bend more. (By bending, I assume you mean the relative angle between the axial center lines of two coupled cars.) Where it sneaks up on you is probably in an area where this accident happened, where the bridge tracks that stop at DeKalb merge with the 4 Av Express tracks that don't. The train goes left, then goes right. The change in sideways acceleration (or your resistance to it) could be severe, throwing someone riding between the cars into open space.
Because the 75-footers have a wider turning radius than the 60 foot B Division cars (let alone their 51-foot IRT cousins), the 'break' between cars when on a curve has to be more severe because the cars themselves can never bend (at least the MTA hopes they never do), so the turn is handled in the split between the cars.
Bend a piece of paper two or three times so its edges are at a 90 degree angle and you'll get a 30 degree or 22.5 degree angle at each of the bends (if they're all the same). Now bend it five or six times to get the same 90 degree angle at either end -- the space between tghe bends is smaller, and the angles in between are only 15 to 18 degrees apeice. The same thing applies with the difference between the 60 and 75 foot cars; the less the angle is the less out of alignment the two sections are and, on the subway, the less of a whipsaw effect there is.
Very elegant explanation.
To augment what others have said: The "Whiplash effect" only occurs on BMT trackage (Coney Island, DeKalb, City Hall, etc). The IND curves are much gentler and do not jar you in opposite directions in close time proximities. Even the switches from express to local are gentler than their BMT counterparts.
Why is the blame in this case perceived to be ALL or NOTHING??? In most negligence cases, both plaintiff and defendant are found to have contributed to SOME degree.
The report found the mother PARTLY at fault, as in NOT FULLY, as in less than 100% but more than 0%. The Post, the Daily News, and Newsday gloss over this inconvenient fact, because partial fault does not sell newspapers. The mother and her lawyer, of course, are pretending that she was found completely at fault, and they're using that pretense as fuel for both sound bites and the upcoming litigation.
>>> The report found the mother PARTLY at fault, as in NOT FULLY, as in less than 100% but more than 0%. The Post, the Daily News, and Newsday gloss over this inconvenient fact <<<
The Daily News article which was linked from this board clearly stated that it was partial fault. There was no other way to interpret what was written.
>>> The mother and her lawyer, of course, are pretending that she was found completely at fault, <<<
What possible reason would they have to give the impression that she was found to be completely at fault? One would expect them to spin the story to minimize the mother's fault.
Tom
"What possible reason would they have to give the impression that she was found to be completely at fault? One would expect them to spin the story to minimize the mother's fault."
If the lawyer is doing that he's aiming to paint the MTA and the review process as evil, racially prejudiced, or otherwise flawed - to paint the mother as a poor helpless soul being railroaded by the system...
This is a typical lawyer trick. Portray the 'victim' as being victimized again by the system. The fact is that the PTSB re-enacted the incident and the end door likely performed as designed. (I have not seen the actual report nor was I privy to the actual testing). In assessing blame, all factors are considered. Could the door have been designed better? Could the danger have been forseen and warnings posted? I do not know how blame was apportioned in this case (per the report) but I'd be suprised if the MTA was on te short side of the 50% mark. Common sense would dictate that the mother was negligent because the tragedy was forseeable. It would not happen to my grandchildren - ever. I'm sure this will play out in court and a sympathetic jury will make it all better by splitting the difference and awarding the negligent mother a few mil. to help ease her pain. Of course the lawyer will get his and justice will have been served - once again. Sadly, America has become the land where someone else must be to blame.
>>> Sadly, America has become the land where someone else must be to blame. <<<
You are right, and it is intentional. Before 1970, most jurisdictions used the standard of "contributory negligence" in determining who was responsible for damages after an accident. If a plaintiff contributed in the least bit to the accident, he could not recover from the other party. Therefore if a speeding drunk driver ran down a jaywalker, the jaywalker could not collect a cent in damages.
With the beginning of the 70s, the theory of "comparative negligence" spread through the land. Those that pushed this theory pointed out the social value of spreading risks over large numbers of people through insurance, and that social value was foiled when a plaintiff was denied any recovery because the defendant (with lawyers paid by the insurance companies) was able to show some little thing a plaintiff did wrong and thus escape having to compensate the plaintiff. If it was a serious injury (multiple amputation, brain damage, etc.), the plaintiff and his family would be on welfare for the rest of his life.
The theory of comparative negligence requires that once the plaintiff shows that the defendant was negligent in some manner, then the defendant who previously had only to show that the plaintiff did something negligent to bar any recovery now had to try to apportion the blame between the parties, so that even if the plaintiff was 75% at fault, if he suffered $1 million damage, he could recover $250,000.00. This led to big increases in insurance premiums, and since apportioning the blame can be very subjective, with the skill of a trained advocate being very important, a great increase in the number of attorneys specializing in personal injury cases on contingencies. Now, some thirty years later it results in the "blame game" since even a minor amount of fault by the defendant with deep pockets can bring big bucks to a plaintiff.
There is now a very strong lobby of attorneys getting rich off the blame game who (in the best capitalist tradition) provide plenty of money to politicians at all levels to prevent the pendulum from swinging back the other way.
Tom
Worse than that, in some states (Calif. I believe) the plaintiff is guaranteed by law the entire amount of the judgment. For example, a plaintiff sues two defendants, and a jury finds that Defendant #1 is 2% responsible, and Defendant #2 is 98% responsible. If Defendant #1 is a transit authority with sufficient resources to pay the entire judgment, and Defendant #2 is a destitute drunk with $30 to his name, then Defendant #1 must pay the entire judgment, soaking us taxpayers for someone else' stupidity.
>>> If Defendant #1 is a transit authority with sufficient resources to pay the entire judgment, and Defendant #2 is a destitute drunk with $30 to his name, then Defendant #1 must pay the entire judgment, soaking us taxpayers for someone else' stupidity. <<<
This was true during the days of contributory negligence also. As long as the plaintiff was not guilty of any negligence, he would get a judgment which could be collected from any of those responsible for the injury. It is called "joint and several liability".
The increase in the number of PI attorneys with the change to comparative negligence (and in 1977 the ability of attorneys to advertize), and the fact that a deep pocket could usually be found if the accident included any transit agency, or was on a public street (poor maintenance or design of a street might be found to be 2% responsible in an accident between two uninsured motorists, and the one not at fault would collect the full amount from the city).
The deep pockets began to complain that if this was "comparative" negligence and they were only 2% negligent they should not pay more than 2% of the damages. The legislatures listened, and now in many jurisdictions only the actual damages (costs of medical treatment and property damage) are subject to joint and several liability, and the more intangible damages such as pain and suffering and loss of consortium are proportioned, greatly reducing the bite on the minor tort feasors.
Tom
"This was true during the days of contributory negligence also. As long as the plaintiff was not guilty of any negligence, he would get a judgment which could be collected from any of those responsible for the injury. It is called "joint and several liability". "
Yes, thank you; I was trying to remember the correct term.
"The legislatures listened, and now in many jurisdictions only the actual damages (costs of medical treatment and property damage) are subject to joint and several liability, and the more intangible damages such as pain and suffering and loss of consortium are proportioned, greatly reducing the bite on the minor tort feasors."
If a public authority is 2% liable for something then, morally it should only have to pay those actual damages not covered by the victim's own insurance policies.
I wonder if a "no fault" pool might offer a compromise that everyone might be able to live with...
No matter what the T/A tries to do to make the subway safer there is always room for error. Unsupervised children who are riding on the subway trains are naturally curious and they don't know how dangerous it can be to stand near the end doors of a train should they slide open. Parents must take great care NEVER to allow their children to stand near the end doors of any train because they can open unexpectedly. The only exceptions are the end door on the front of the train and the end door on the rear of the train which is kept locked at all times when the train is in regular service. Even so young children when they are riding the subways must be kept under parental supervision at all time so that they don't get into trouble. In this case I think the parent was at fault for allowing the child to roam around on the train unsupervised.
BMTJeff
I'm 100% with you. A parent can make sure a kid has a healthy respect for the subway, and so can keep the fun in the ride.
Another thing that parents should teach the children is to watch for the closing doors on the trains.
BMTJeff
I agree that parents need to take safety concerns into account as much when they're on the trains as before they board -- a mom would never let her 3-year-old run around on a subway platform with a train coming into the station and they shouldn't relax after they get on.
The 75 footers (or the Standards before them) may be safer because the end doors are closed, but that doesn't mean other things can't happen. There has to be some personal resposibility taken by the parents, though in this case, I'll bet the jury goes for the "deep pockets" theory and gives them the $20 million they're asking for (minus the $6 million share for the lawyer, of course).
[I'll bet the jury goes for the "deep pockets" theory and gives them the $20 million they're asking for (minus the $6 million share for the lawyer, of course). ]
And that $20M comes from their rown pockets...
Arti
How are the subways and commuter lines doing tonight? It's windy and rainy out there and here in good ol' "let it grow wild" country in northern Nassau I'm hearing about lots of trees blocking roadways, power outages, and many OB branch LIRR problems (stuck gates, trees on tracks,etc).
And in yesterday's Sea Cliff village election, the challnger New Village Party (whom I voted for) lost to the backward minded Civic Progress party (incumbant). New Village brought up the decay of Sea Cliff village, unsafe sidewalks, pedestrian hazzards, and the ghostown the village is becoming and why the incumbants don't want to do anything. Sad to say, most village residents must like a ghostown, potholes, and narrow sidewalks because the idiots won again. And they just let the village decay.
A good outage of an old song I say-
"Take this town and shove it, I aint livin here no more"
I sure hope there is a way to avoid having those slow, shiny beasts on the diamond Q. If it's just a matter of signs, can't they just make diamond Q signs and paste them on the slant R40s?
My other criticisms of the bridge plan are the W should run on weekends. Unless more Q's run than D's currently do on weekends, there will be less service to Brooklyn and that means, well you guessed it, more crowded trains.
The M should also run to Bay Parkway on weekdays to provide a close-by alternative for Brooklyn riders near the Bowery.
Any reason why the W shouldn't run to Manhattan on weekends is completely bogus!
You don't need the W to Manhattan since the N/R's and Q's will cover service in Manhattan. Different then when the B runs on 6th Ave on the weekend.
What cars that are going to be on what lines isn't set in stone yet, the slants won't be going anywhere. Always remember how the Q got slants, the B riders complained!!
>>What cars that are going to be on what lines isn't set in stone yet, the slants won't be going anywhere. Always remember how the Q got slants, the B riders complained!!<<
It is set in stone. Well, almost. They're not going to put diamond signs on R-40's just so they can run express. The R-68's will be on the Q express.
Maybe if you guys were nicer to the poor R-68's they'd run better. Be kind to them when you board. Pat and stroke them lightly and say "Nice R-68, good R-68."
Yeah, and say, "Here's a nice final field shunt step for you".:-)
I actually said, "Nice A train" once to a train of R-1/9s which lumbered into 42nd St. one Saturday morning. Naturally, I was thrilled because it didn't have headlights.
This is one of my biggest problems with the TA. There is nothing universal. Why can't every train have every sign reading so it can run anywhere? For instance, the R110B just says "C LISTEN FOR ANNOUNCEMENT." Most riders don't pay any attention. Why can't all trains have the < Q > sign? It is just like why can't the J run the R46? That is the biggest flaw with the TA. Even though the system is old, they can't make a universal car with universal signs.
All I can say is the TA better move the R68s onto the local when the express isn't running. The R68 might be trash, but the R40 should take the weekends and nights off.
Well the J cannot run R46's because they're 75 foot cars. Not because they don't have the J rollsign.
Harry
www.zdeno.com
Over 1500 NYC subway images.
Nooooooo!!!!!! :-(
Yay! My back won't hurt in the morning! Too bad they're not going to be R68As : - D
>>If it's just a matter of signs, can't they just make diamond Q signs and paste them on the slant R40s?<<
If they did that, then they could have pasted T signs on the trains for the West End service and Used W for the Brighton loc.
>>Any reason why the W shouldn't run to Manhattan on weekends is completely bogus!<<
It won't run because:
You already have 2 Coney Isle services on broadway, the N and Q. The need for a 3rd is unnecessary. If it is necessary, then they'll just run the W on Weekends too.
.
Trains Magazine online posted that "the NY City Economic Development Corp. has selected Canadian Pacific to operate the 65th Street Yard and cross-harbor transfer bridges in Brooklyn, a move that CP says will be a big boost to its Big Apple business."
"Canadian Pacific to operate the 65th Street Yard and cross-harbor transfer bridges in Brooklyn"
How does this move affect New York Cross Harbor ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, my guess is that it will affect NY Cross Harbor in a big way as they were the sole carfloat barge operation up till now.
Certianly NYCH will continue to retain all street trackage rights, meaning that all rail shipping from the Army Terminal NORTHWARD would be their jurisdication. One of Cross Harbor's biggest clients -- the Cocoa Port -- would obviously remain as theirs. As well, NYCH does all of NYCT's scrap-car removals, which will certainly pick up once the Redbirds are "retired".
This is some very interesting news, no matter how you look at it.
BMTman
Yesterday the BHRA obtained official approval and transfer of ownership of the former Shaker Heights PCC cars 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 60, 61, 62, 67, 68, 69, and 70 from Niagra Frontier Transit Authority in Buffalo. The 12 cars and spare parts will be moved down to Brooklyn over the next 4 months.
And some people said we couldn't do it.
The cars will be used to provide vintage trolley service from the Red Hook waterfront to downtown. The waterfront trackage is now active to the foot of Connover St. Street trackage building is about to begin to connect these tracks to the old Crosstown/Erie Basin carline trackage on Richards St. and a return track on Van Brunt St. The Richards St. tracks head downtown around the Battery Tunnel and onto Columbia St.
Car 3303 is in the shop being painted (finally), and the windows being reinstalled as soon as the paint cures enough in this low temperature. This car underwent a year of rehab by volunteers.
Jan
Something occured to me.
The southeaternmost nmost station on the Buffalo metro is called "Auditorium". It's probably not much more than 400 miles from the northwestnmost NYC subway station, 242 St on the 1. Why don't we just make it one big statewide transit system!
You know what? It's late! I oughta be in bed.
;-D Andrew
Jan,
Where are these 12 PCC's going to be stored ? Plus the 3 ex-MBTA PCC's too.
Bill "Newkirk"
We have access to a nearby lot on Beard St. along the proposed right of way that will allow for all the cars and a bypass shunt track.
Congrats on obtaining all those PCC's for BTM. Since I was there about 2 years ago, it sounds like alot of work has been done.
Once all the restoration and trackage is complete, will all the equipment be placed into service at once?
Good to hear from you Jan, its been awhile.
I should be so lucky. If I had more volunteers, I'd get alot more done. You want to help?
:-)
Email me above. Let's see what we can do.
Thanks,
Paul
Gee, the junk NFTA bought from RTA (the SHRT Pullmans that RTA beat into the ground) goes to Brooklyn. Hope you have a lot of knowleable people and lots of sweat equity to bring them back to life. Seems interesting. NFTA pitched them to everybody, including every streetcar operating property in the country. Even musuems got the prospective for the cars and spare parts. BSM looked and passed - wrong gauge, non-Baltimore and GE to boot. Even MUNI passed. The cars were in much worse shape than the ex-SEPTA GOH-2 cars they bought and put $600K per car into. Muche higher cost to rehab. Plus, all that MU equipment - totally useless in a fully single use.
Aren't some PCCs going to be available sometime this spring? Ones in good shape, and right next door in Newark! Was any thought given to purchasing these, or is there just too much animosity between NJ and NY?
These cars originally were bought to make test runs on a proposed extension of MetroRail over an existing ROW through the Town of Tonawanda, a suburb north of Buffalo. When they first came here, they were supposedly being tested south of the city, since the tracks on the intended ROW were not ready. Haven't heard a thing about them since 'til today. And the possibilities of extensions of MetroRail are fading daily.
The NFTA did not put them out to bid until last year. I think that alot of folks didn't want to buy the whole lot which is what the prospective said. Most museums can't afford to spend that kind of money, not can they store 12 cars and the parts (including 20 GE1220's) all of a sudden. It fit our needs exactly.
The cars are not entirely beat to heck, but were fairly well taken care of, but never GOH'd. These are the St. Louis cars that are sisters to Newark's, thankfully NOT the Pullmans. The SHRT Pullmans in Ohio I saw are pretty bad.
SFMuni spent 450K on each of their rebuilds, and alot had to do with reguaging the trucks and making everything in sight new. I think we are ahead of the game in several areas.
St. Louis car postwar bodies have a common problem with moisture being trapped between the roof and the standee window panels, so they rot right there - Newark's and SFMuni's are doing the same to varying degrees. Ours aren't too bad considering 54 years in Minneapolis/Cleveland/Buffalo weather. Pullmans have their own structural problems - call Orient Heights and ask them what they are running into.
And you are correct, we will have to put alot of sweat equity into them. That we are not afraid to do, and have shown that we can do things well for ALOT less money and trouble than other folks assume. These aren't rocket ships, nor will they be display models. We have collected quite a bit of material on all-electrics. Although I had misgivings about GE cars, we and a few of other GE car owner/operators are putting our heads together to solve parts/reliability problems collectively. Should be interesting. Especially with the project that they will be used for.
Cars 51-55 are the single units and are the best of the bunch. The remainder are MU. They all have backup controllers.
Jan
My understanding (read from fan and transit pubs) was that the cars are the Pullmans. If they are the ex-Minneapolis St. Louis cars, they may have been modified by RTA with "modern" (read wierd full glass) doors and pantographs, with the trolley shoud removed.They did do that (though not a full GOH) when the Breda LRV's were delayed. When RTA offered them, nobody took them AFAIK, including Northern Ohio. However, erroneous news does make the trade/railfan press quite often.
The pans are all gone from these cars, all the insulators still there. NFTA put one of their own pans on #70, cleaned up the contacts and brushes and ran it around the line a bit. The poles and shrouds are all still there. Car 52 still has the old metal doors.
The closest they got to a "GOH" was the rebuild they got, as you mention, was to rebuild everything in house, replace the doors with the single pane jobs and repaint it into the RTA livery. Mechanically and electrically they are as they left Minneapolis (who did the backup box and MU mods on 56-70). Ok, there's the police alert beacon on the roof.
I got some parts off of Pullman #74 at Trolleyville a couple of years ago after they de-trucked it for their TTC car. I have no idea how that car stayed together - I pulled the kingpin off the bolster by hand, and accidentally put my shoe through its side.
I do think that most museums balked at having to take the whole shebang all at once. Everyone wants just one of everything. These 12 fit our needs exactly.
I sit corrected. (If I stand corrected, I Can't type.)
Jan, a couple of points to remember as the rehab begins:
All the Shaker PCC's have trip arms and the associated circuits, required for the joint operation with CTS. Also, the MU cars will have the couplers (unless RTA removed them) and the drum switches, wiring and the reostats for PCC MU control. All that is totally unecessary for what you will be doing. The MU's also have a 600 volt bus jumper for train operation, used to reduce the number of trolley poles in trains.
I suggest that you get your hands on a Standard St. Louis GE all-electric wiring diagram (source, if you don't have one is NJ Transit. They were very happy to give one to Minnesota for their rebuild.) Strip EVERYTHING that doesn't apply to a standard single unit PCC and go from there. You will be much happier, and the resulting scrap will help the cashflow.
E-mail me privately and we'll start a dialog.
Errr, but if they are MU cars, you can't just strip out the rate
rheostats, because the accelerating/braking relay doesn't have a
means to be operated mechanically. It's a HUGE job to re-wire
the GE MU car into a single unit. Trip arms and the emergency
brake cord (if present) are relatively easy to remove as they
just interrupt the emergency loop...just jump around them.
Couplers come off easily too, just disconnect the harness at
the drum switch. I wouldn't go and remove the drum switch
unless I enjoyed splicing about 20 wires back together. The
bus jumper thing comes off pretty cleanly. But, suppose traffic
gets so heavy on this Red Hook line that they need to run
2-car PCC trains???
Jan,
What kind of hours will you operate?Will this be a tourist oriented service? Or is this a regularly scheduled mass-transit service between downtown Brooklyn and Red Hook? How much will you charge?
Ron- The concept is to provide a hybrid between a tourist/historical attraction and an actual mode of transportation. The PCC cars fit well into this idea.
Were currently planning what the operating schedule will be, but it will certainly include peak hour operations.
It is our hope, that these trolleys will help "reconnect" Red Hook with downtown Brooklyn (and its subway stations). The trolley could also help provide public access between subway stations and the new Brooklyn Bridge Park.
Its anticipated the trolley will be on the MetroCard system. Right now, were running some preliminary numbers, to see if its possible to have a fee of $1.00 per round trip, or $1.00 per day, with additional revenue coming from car advertising fees.
Bob D.
>>>The concept is to provide a hybrid between a tourist/historical attraction and an actual mode of transportation.<<<
A la the streetcars in New Orleans. The concept seems to work well there. I suppose you will have an arrangement with the MTA regarding fare collection similar to DOT bus companies.
Where can I find more information about your organization? Are you entirely private, or are you considered a museum. I remember hearing about you guys on the board before, but I had a strange impression in was one guy with a trolley car who wanted to run excursions on a short line in Brooklyn. My apologies. I sounds like much more than that. Are you getting coverage in any media? I usually keep up with TRAINS magazine and RAILPACE, and the local print mediea here, but I don't recall seeing anything about Brooklyn trolleys. How close are you to running? I would think the reintroduction of trolleys to Brooklyn is a big deal -- even bigger than HBLR. Am I just missing the press reports, or is it just too far off from completion? Personally, I can't wait to see trolleys on the streets of New York.
The news reports have been mainly in the local press here in downtown Brooklyn. Were going to be starting construction in the street later this spring.
You have to start somewhere, so we began by building about 3/8 mile along the waterfront on private right of way. After being reviewed by 23 Agencies (and about 100 pounds of paper), they began to understand that the same laws of physics apply on both sides of the fence line.
We are going to continue being non-profit, the same as the "McKinney Avenue Transit Authority".
Once we "break ground" in the street, I think there will be plenty of publicity about this.
"one guy with a trolley" was never really a correct way of describing this project, but as long as it all worked out I guess its OK. Of course, if it were up to me, I would have described it a whole lot differently- the present underlying concept was really always there.
Bob D,
WAIT A MINUTE !
Aren't two of those ex-Shaker Heights PCC's ex- Newark City Subway ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Here's the present numbers of all the cars were getting:
51,52,53,54,55,60,61,62,67,68,69,70.
I recall reading somewhere that some of the Twin Cities cars were sent first to the Newark Subway, and then Shaker Heights. Do you know which these were?
"I recall reading somewhere that some of the Twin Cities cars were sent first to the Newark Subway, and then Shaker Heights. Do you know which these were?"
Bob D,
I don't know if the ex- Newark cars were renumbered into Shaker Heights roster. I do know one ex-Newark Car was #3 and another either #21 or #22. If I'm wrong on these numbers,I would appreciate any SubTalker to bring up a correct one.
Bill "Newkirk"
Both cars are up in their original home in Minneapolis. One is beautifully restored to its original condition, the other is in storage.
They were Newark #3 and #27, same numbers at Shaker. The RTA bought these cars from Newark to allieviate a severe car shortage. They even leased two ex-Illinois Terminal PCC's from museums!
And, also to help alleviate the car shortage, RTA acquired two of the ex-Cleveland Pullmans. Being Westinghouse cars, RTA had to run them as singles or in a two-car train. They also had those WH K-1A couplers and RTA didn't bother to change them to Tomlinsons. It was interesting to see red streetcars on Shaker, plus the oddity of two cars, orginally from CTS returning to the Forest City. I believe both were scrapped, as nobody wanted them either.
Somebody once told me that you cannot MU GE and WH PCC cars. I believe
it was because on or the other can't adjust to the differing acceleration and brake settings, but I may be wrong.
I also heard that you shouldn't mix GE & WH motors. I know SEPTA did it on some pre-GOH cars, and I heard the cars ran funny and were hard to stop.
Actually, GE & WH can be trainlied together (as long as it's compatible, the idea of the PCC to begin with). And as for mixing GE and WH, The Almond Joy took that to the ultimate. They were the only mixed married pairs ever built (odd numbered=GE, even numbered=WH).
Bob:
Are you still hoping to run the trolley in the 1840s LIRR tunnel you rediscovered?
I think it's fabulous! It will be of great help to Red Hook, to the subway, to the whole area.
Using Metrocards is a great idea. Can you arrange a reciprocal transfer agreement (the TA accepts a Metrocard transfer from you, and you accept a Metrocard transfer from the TA)?
Lots of luck. Since you are a non-profit, I assume you'll be offering charter memberships (???)
So much for expanding the half-built Buffalo LRT to North Tonawanda or Amhearst.
According to an article in the 2/1/01 Buffalo News (available on- line), NFTA is still considering the extension to Tonawanda, but wants a fleet of new cars. I guess their hunting around for some Federal money.
I had dinner with Brighton Express #1 Bob last night and we had a blast. He was here in California to look up some old friends and he is heading to Hawaii tonight to finish up packing for his permanent move to Virginia. He got a good job there and is closing up all affairs in Alohaland. He will be off the board for a week or so, but told me to tell everyone that he will be back in full force and out friendly rivalry between the Sea Beach and Brighton Beach will continue. Oh, yes, we went at it on that subject last night, as well as Reps vs Dems. Curiously enough, the Yankees vs Mets sideshow was never mentioned once. Well two out of three aint bad.
I wonder if Brighton Beach Bob will come to New York with you when you visit?
BMTJeff
He was hoping to but when he looked at his schedule he was off my a week. It is a disappointment. There is no greater rivalry on this site than Bob and me. But it is a friendly rivalry and I have grown to be really fond of that guy. He is a good friend.
Did you record it for posterity?:-) How about a transcript?
The $64,000 question: did a food fight erupt?:-)
"Did you record it for posterity?:-) How about a transcript?
The $64,000 question: did a food fight erupt?:-)"
Food fight? How does calzones at 20 paces sound !
Bill "Newkirk"
I've got the sound bit of John Belushi screaming "FOOD FIGHT" in Animal House. Time to cue it up.:-)
Steve: Sorry to disappoint you and all the rest of the railfans, but we were on our best behavior. The food was too good to waste. But maybe next time.
Not even a Brighton vs Sea Beach shouting match? Awww, man!!:-)
I didn't say that. We did have a shouting match, but for us that IS being on our best behavior.
Did it go something like,
"Brighton!"
"Sea Beach!"
"BRIGHTON!!"
"SEA BEACH!!!"
ad nauseum?:-)
You've got it. Just like that and really loud.
Okay (hope I get the track numbers right) at Queens Plaza D1 and D3 are being reversed signaled. Now these are the Manhattan bound (D3 E/F and D/1 R/G) tracks. D1 queens bound used to have a single Red over Red at the Queens end of the platform. Now it has a full home signal with at least 3 call ons from what I can tell under the bag. The express track is the same with new signals in both directons.
D4 also has a new home signal next to the tower.
What gives?
Well the signal system is being modernized in the Queens Plaza area because of the 63 St connector.
As far as the reverse homeballs go, since switches are just beyond the signals, they're using home balls. The purpose of a home ball is to protect a switch. The TA no longer installs "low home" signals or "jacks" on the mainline whenever a switch is involved.
Well D1 always had the switch there at the Queens end, just you could never move that way. Change in heart I guess....
These signals allow moves onto D5, the layup track between Queens Plaza and 36 Street.
The switch between D1 and D3 n/o QP was added about 4 years
ago, just before the start of the connector construction there.
It took the place of a D3-D1 switch that used to be at 36 St,
but was removed to make room for T1 track. So, before the change,
there was no reason to be able to go north out of QP from D1,
hence the marker signal. When they cut the switch in, that still
wasn't a protected move (no spare levers in QP tower, I think).
Now that move will be under the control of Queensboro Plaza
Masturbatory Tower, hence the new grotesque homeball (these new
signal heads are sized for outdoor work, and the tunnel wall has
to be notched out to fit them).
Get your mind out of the gutter my good man. So I guess the homeballs are the size of grapefruits, no? Those are pretty huge. No reason why you can't abide by a huge set of signals, they're right in your face.
-Stef
Tunnel wall and PLATFORM have been cut out... Geeshesh..
They could keep the old heads, but it would actually cost
more money. By putting in new heads and new signal cases,
they have everything wired up, tested and bagged, then they
cut it in. I believe the narrow subway-style signal heads
are now a special order item, hence the use of the generic
USS "rapid transit" style signal. They are really too big
and too bright for the tunnels.
Was there some ruling from the NTSB ordering those signals?
NTSB?? I don't think so. I'm not aware of any major
accidents at that location within the past decade.
When the bag's off it, would love to see a picture of it. "grotesque homeball" sounds like something I've not seen in my years there. How big ARE these things?
This R142A consist was spotted 11:04 at 14th Street-Union Square making simulated stops with the doors open on the opposite side. There were many people on the platform looking confused. One lady yelled out something like "hey, you opened the doors on the wrong side." Both end route signs were correct, all side route signs facing the platform were working correctly and the automated annoucement was correct as well.
Shawn
customers are stupid. R-142 #6481-85 is at E. 180th/unionport getting ready for testing as we speak. hopefully by next week there will be some Bom. R-142's running on the 2 line. last week 6411-20 was running on monday and after that, it never came back.
Ok, I've procrastinated long enough.
What does LOL mean?
Isn't it "Laugh Out Loud"?
:) Andrew
.
And "LOL" was said often quite literally by Goldie Hawn on "Laugh In" ...
Now, THAT tickles my fancy.:-) Ha-ha-ha!!
Did you know that Laugh-in missed "predicting" the fall of the Berlin Wall by one month? In the fall of 1969, Dan Rowan did a bit on the News of the Future (Berlin, 1989, 20 years from now) about Berliners rejoicing over the fall of the Wall. He went on to say their joy was short-lived, as a moat was dug instead and filled with alligators.
There was also a News of the Future bit on one of the very first shows in early 1968 about President Ronald Reagan in 1988. Little did they know...
Laughing out loud.
LOL (phrase): laugh out loud, or laughing out loud. Derivates also include ROTFL (rolling on the floor laughing) and ROTFLMAO (ROTFL + "my a** off").
--Mark
LOLROTFLMAOKTC
Laughing Out Loud, Rolling On The Floor Laughing My A** Off, Kicking The Cat!!!
Then there's Rolling on the Floor Laughing My A** Off, Wet My Pants.
Or substitute HMS for WMP - Holding My Stomach.
LOL isn't a phrase. It's an acronym.
>>> What does LOL mean? <<<
FYI --> Internet Acronyms
Tom
They forgot pretty intelligent girl/guy and people in government.
The ones I've found you see often on SubTalk are:
BTW - By The Way
IIRC - If I Recall Correctly
AFAIK - As Far As I Know
IMO - In My Opinion
IMHO - In My Humble Opinion
It took me a little while to figure these out too, but usually you can do so from context.
BFN! :O)
There has been a resurgance of trolleys (LRV) in many US cities.
So it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect some smaller cities to consider a non-electric version. And since many folks have bad memories of Budd's RDCs you would need a new name, like LRV did for trolley operation.
Well it's going to happen in Ottawa, NJ, San Diego & elsewhere.
The following are some lifted text from Van Wilkins article in Nov/Dec issue of Mass Transit a "trade" magazine.
"The New Jersey Transit line now under construction between Trenton and Camden will use 20 DMUs ...". Ottawa's 24 mile pilot program "... will be the first diesel powered light rail line in Canada or the US."
The article includes a photo of a Bombardier DMU, a 3 section, 157 foot long articulated unit with diesel power at each end. The NJ Transit unit will be from Adtranz of Switerland.
Question: Would this type of unit be good for NYC to Albany, M-N/LIRR beyond the electric territory or CT's Shoreline or Hartford service ?
Mr t__:^)
On NYC/ALB it probably wouldn't do - there's actually an audience for traditional "heavy rail" here and Amtrak usually has full trains each way. Future plans (assuming Hamtrak doesn't croak) is for turbos and Acela-like trainsets and those of us living upstate are paying some pretty hefty additional taxes to pay for it. This is FRA land up here so I doubt "urban" transit would make the cut and the tracks belong to CSX who isn't exactly in the mood for waivers. In fact right now, rail service between ALB and Poughkeepsie is being held hostage by CSX who doesn't want to pay taxes anymore on ANY of their property. THAT is the reason why the Turbos aren't running right now on the Hudson line. They even held one hostage for a month and change, refusing to let it move out of the Rennselaer station until they got their tax abatement. This is also one of the reasons why the state budget ain't gonna happen until likely August ... CSX's property taxes are a sizeable chunk of the state's money.
Hate to point this out but in England they call them DMU's for years, well non steam years!!
On the P.B.s. channel 21 of Garden City L.I. they frequently have a travelogue in Scotland or Wales or Irland. that usually has a DMU single or two or three lashe-up . I wish i paid more attention as to time and freguence of the showing. Saturdays usually.
avid
Speaking of RDC's, I recently put pictures up of the two that ran on the LIRR, #3101 and 3121
RDC's can't really have a comeback if they never were fully gone...
Long Live Cape May Seashore Lines!!!
Microsoft Train Simulator will be released on May 25! Pre-order at amazon.com for 45 bucks! I just did! I'll be one of the first to get it! YES! :)
PS: How's everyone doing? :)
Tony
Calm down Tony, this is MS we are talking about. First release is no better than Beta. Be prepared for many many patches and fixes to be downloaded.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!! >G<
its cause ur too cheap to buy it
Nope, I'm getting it for my Birthday (june 1). Just be ready for BUGS and more BUGS. I'm not cheap, just use a lot of MS product and know what to expect.
im just kiddin' around, Yea I know what you mean, being an aviation fan as well, I know the troubles with MS flight Simulator, epescially getting some of my self-made add ons to work and such. Still im gonna check it out, im probably gonna end up pirating the copy if it isnt what I expect it to be and return it, hey at least im truthful.
No three service south of 42nd. Is the 4 running to New Lots?
Yes. The 4 will also make all local stops, Atlantic Av to Utica Av as a result. In times past, they ran a 3 shuttle between Atlantic and New Lots Avs.
-Stef
I am currently at haverford so I'll post a retrn trip message. I caught the last off peak train out of Philly (the 3:40) and here's what I saw.
-I saw a Silverliner MU'd to two modern SEPTA cars. Didn't think they could do that.
-There was an odd form of Approach Slow signal upon entering Suburban Station. It was Y/R/G instead of the usual Y/Y or Y/Y/R
-There was a P42 sitting up near ZOO tower as some sort of protect power.
-VALLEY interlocking had some new CPL signals
-There were two more P42's sitting on the R6 Cynwyd track at VALLEY interlocking for some reason.
-Top speed we reached was 63mph.
-Close station stops, but we frequently hit 50+mph.
-VALLEY interlocking had some new CPL signals -
Is this on the former Pennsy ? Surprised they would allow duplication with the LIRR tower so named.
There were duplicate interlocking names on the PRR proper. Like C(onemaugh) interlocking in Johnstown PA (still active!) and C interlocking in Penn Station (refered to as C-NYC by railfans).
You must certainly mean Haverbrook.
Did you see the abandoned monorail in the derelict town of North Haverbrook?
The R5 goes to Haverford. It is on the Paoli/Thorndale side of the line.
What/where is Haverbrook?
Its where they built a monorail system a few years back. It's currently out of service.
No, he meant Haverford.
Three to five inches of rain today in the Boston area caused major disruptions on the Boston MBTA, especially on the commuter rail and Green Line. It looks like there will be a lot of "service guarantee" requests for refunds today! I wonder if they will cite an "Act of God" excuse, or if they will issue refunds?
For most of the day today (3/22), flooding at Wilmington caused major disruptions on the Lowell commuter rail line. Trains ran from North Station to Mishawum (Woburn), where buses and vans were available to take passengers to Wilmington (for those destined there), and North Billerica (for those destined there and Lowell). At North Billerica, a "stranded" trainset was available to run shuttle service between North Billerica and Lowell.
As of 5:15pm, Wilmington became passable. Train #327 (4:10 out of North Station) was held at Mishawum. Train #329 (4:40 out of North Station, which I was on), was given clearance to enter Mishawum behind #327. Passengers for Wilmington, North Billerica, and Lowell were transferred from #329 to #327's trainset (and the crew was transferred as well). The #327 crew dropped back to the #329 trainset, which then loaded inbound passengers (on the wrong rail) for the return to Boston.
The following text comes from the MBTA Web site at 5:45pm, describing other issues of the day:
Green:
Passengers will be bussed between Kenmore and Fenway due to flooding conditions. Due to Muddy River flooding in the fenway area, Green Line service on the Riverside Line between Kenmore Sq. and Fenway hasbeen replaced with shuttle bus service. Until flooding subsides, MBTA emergency crews have been mobilized to dam the Fenway Portal and establish pumping stations. This action is necessary to protect the Green Line subway from serious damage. The alternatebus shuttle service will continue until flooding subsides and we are sure it is safe to resume normal Green Line operations. All other service trains are running on or near schedule.
Bus:
Bus routes 16, 64, 83, 95, 134, 350/354, and 554 are being diverted off their regular routes in certain areas due to flooding.Four corners in Woburn is being omittied from service due to severe flooding. Expect 20-30 minute delays on all bus lines due to poor driving conditions.
Commuter:
Due to todays inclement weather resulting in flooding on our commuter rail tracks, commuter rail riders returning home on the Fitchburg Line must acess commuter rail service at Porter Square Station on the Red line. On your return trip home, please take the Red line to Porter Square station. At Porter Square station, MBTA personnel will direct you to the Fitchburg Commuter Rail Platform. This alternate route will continue until the flooding subides and service can safely resume. If you have any questions, MBTA personnel will be availible at North and Porter Square stations to assist you. We apologize for the inconvence and thank you for your patience as we work around the clock to restore normal commuter rail service on the Fitchburg Line. Weather related delays are causing all trains in and out of North Station to be running 15-20 minutes behind schedule. On the Lowell line, due to flooding in Wilmington, alternate bus shuttles are being provided bewtween Mishawum and North Billerica.(Due to heavy rush hour traffic and numerous road closures, shuttle buses are delayed 30-40 min.) Worcester trains are running 15-20 minutes behind scedule due to flooding in Natick. All other trains are running on or near schedule. Providence Train#818 will be delayed 30-40 min. Fitchburg train #424 is delayed 45-60 min due to brake problems.
The Red, Orange, and Blue Lines were reported on or close to schedule.
Greetings, all...
I just got back in from O'Hare about an hour ago, after an incredible week in London. A full report will come later, but I thought I'd let everybody know I've arrived safe and sound. At 6:30 tomorrow morning I head off to Philly to help a friend move some furniture to Chicago, so I'm taking advantage of my little break to get caught up on some rest, take a good hot shower, and cook a decent dinner.
I promise a more extensive write-up about London after I return Sunday evening, so stay tuned...
-- David
Chicago, IL
How are you getting to Philly? Train? It's a great ride. You leave at night and arrive in Philly the next afternoon.
Hope you had a good time. I shall look forward to reading your post.
Simon
Swindon UK
Yeah, me too. That way when I go back in either August or January, I can see what you've done and possibly add it to the next visit.
The first time that we went to London, we didn't like the place one bit, the food was awful and there was a lot of overcrowding. But I decided to give the place another chance and when we went back the following year, we absolutely loved it! It also helped that we now knew the places NOT to go.
Now we go every year without fail.
I know that the metro trains sometimes catch on fire but has a bart train caughton fire?
The WMATA trains have a fireproof carpet. Once, some jerk TRIED to set a car on fire, he only was able to create alot of smoke and alot of inconvinences for many commuters including myself.
I think sometime in the 1980's can't remember when. Murphy"s law of course applied, what worse than under the bay. A BART train caught fire and the worst part of the fire which caused a fireman's death was toxic fumes from the synthetic..a form of plastic which I can't identify..car interior material. I believe some changes were made in materials after that but don't know for a fact that a total remodelling was ordered.
So too late they found that these materials and electric trains underground don't mix. Hate to think how many home materials and furnishings these days would burn with killing fumes, worse by far than smoke from the wood structures burning.
indeed 1979 a fire in the 'Transbay Tube' gutted a couple of cars. Sadly the fatality was a Fireman. The foam seat cushions were determined to have produced the toxic combustion products which killed him. All of the seating materials were changed out as a result. BUT remember aluminum burns at a much lower temperature than steel.
Way back in 1975, new Pullman Standard R46 MUs were catching on fire just being laid up in the yards. Electrical problems, the TA said at the time.
Opinion: The R46, BEFORE GOH, was the worse dog ever to come onto the property.
A groundbreaking ceremony was held in the rain yesterday for construction of the 22nd Street HBLR Station in Bayonne. The line currently terminates at 34th Street.
Ridership is up to 8,200 average weekday passenger trips. Story in Thursday’s online Jersey Journal.
What happened to the extension to Ridgefield? They said that Tonelle Avenue in 2005 will be the final extension.
When did you start believing that newspapers always got their stories right in every detail? It will keep growing as long as customer demand and politics permit.
That's not the only thing.
In the map engraved into the floor at Exchange Place, the line only goes to Tonnelle Avenue.
Very nice. I don't know the Bayonne area well. s this something a Staten Islander could use (e.g. walk/bike/ride across the Bayonne Bridge to the station)?
I'd rather see the North Shore line open up again.
Oh, I'm a Staten Islander.
I can appreciate what you say.
However, I want an answer to my question. Let me rephrase it:
Is this new HBLR station in Bayonne (when it opens) within reasonable walking or biking or short drive distance for Staten Islanders by way of the Bayonne Bridge?
If so, it would offer an alternate means to get to Manhattan(transfer to PATH at Exchange Place). It would also offer convenient commuting to other NJ locations, including Newark (via PATH).
How far is this station from the NJ-side of the Bayonne?
Well, the streets are numbered from the Kill Van Kull, and they are similar in distance to the Manhattan streets (they use the same east-west concept), so it's not so hard to figure out.
Also remember that the bridge can't land exactly at First Street and needs to go further inland.
The Bayonne Bridge has a walkway/bikeway on the west side.
I don't know about any busses that use it.
Looking at my Hagstrom SI map, the bridge is at W 1 st in Bayonne. I believe the original plans were for the HBLR to go as far as 8th or 3rd or something like that.
It would go to wherever the CNJ RoW turned to head over Newark Bay.
Here's a picture taken at Stillwell Ave in the early 70's. Can anyone explain what that large object that appears behind the crew quarters is? Looks like a water tower, but I'm not so sure:
It is a gas storage tank. This one is enclosed. Others have the steel framework and the cylinderical tank would be at different levels depending on how much gas was stored inside. In the midwest, they did away with them and the gas is somehow stored underground, perhaps in caves or caverns. This is gas as in heating and in cooking gas, not gasoline. I think the last one in Chicago is by the coke plant near 115 ST and Torrence, if it is still there.
David Harrison
[Others have the steel framework and the cylinderical tank would be at different levels depending on how much gas was stored inside.]
Kinda like the storage tanks in Elmhurst that were taken down a few years ago.
So that explains what happened to that gas tank which used to be right next to the main span of the Chicago Skyway.
Used to be several similar tanks on the Jersey side of the Goethals bridge. Long gone. In fact, it's been a while since I've seen one of those 'expand-a-tanks'. The Elmhurst tanks are the ones known to millions of travelers on the LIE as 'The Tanks' in traffic reports.
-Hank
Its a water tower. If you have Bill Newkirk's 2000 calendar, it explains a little more (December).
Thanks.
Nice, clean R-16s, too.
R16's, in my book at least, should be covered in grafitti. Thats the only way I remember them.
It is not a water tower. It was a natural gas storage tank owned by Brooklyn Union Gas. There were 2 tanks recently removed in Elmhurst Queens on Grand Ave, viewable from the LI Exp'way. as well. There are 2 others still in Greenpoint. Look south as you cross the Kosciusco Bridge. There are 2 of them still standing. Also, in old LIRR pictures taken at Jamaica station, you may have been able to see a tank in Jamaica. That one has also been taken down.
Right. That BU gas tank was a "landmark" along the Belt Pkwy for a very long time.
--Mark
Many years ago (when I was in elementary school), a classmate told me that they played sports in those tanks! He must have got them mixed up with Madison Square Garden, which has a similar round shape.
The Elmhurst tanks have (had!) another transit-related purpose. On the approach to LaGuardia for the Runway 31 "Expressway Visual Approach," one flies inbound to Runway 4 (that is, from southwest to northeast, roughly from the VZ Bridge across South Brooklyn) to the tanks. Then a right turn to follow the LIE to Kew, and a left turn inbound to Runway 31. Now that the tanks are gone, I believe that DME (distance measuring equipment, i.e. # of miles from the Runway 4 threshold) is used to mark the right turn.
On topic, this approach gives wonderful views of the South Brooklyn yards, Sunnyside yard, Corona yard, and Jamaica yard.
I've flown that approach on an airliner. The view is spectacular. On a rainy day, though, I can't help thinking that if the jet's brakes aren't perfect, there's not enough runway to keep us from swimming in Flushing Bay...
By the way, I know the PA built a 400-foot safety overrun on one of the runways (after beating back the NIMBYs and firing warning shots over their heads). Would it be the end of Runway 31?
The safety overrun is at the end of Runway 13 (coming from the northwest). This approach is used less frequently, as a steeper decent is required due to obstacles on the inbound path.
Both runways at LGA are about 6,000 feet in length. Due to noise constraints, takeoffs on Runway 22 (heading to the southwest) are executed only if there is a very strong southwest wind, or if 13-31 is closed. The Rwy 22 departure goes right over the GCP; on the takeoff roll, pilots often joke, "Get the E-Z Pass ready!"
Back on topic... just across the bay from LGA is an EDO facility. Is this where the EDO speedometers for NYCT are produced?
Thanks for answering my next "What's this in this picture?" question for me, which is the structure that appears in the background of this pic of the "old" Supthin Blvd. J station:
>>> the structure that appears in the background <<<
Another gas storage tank.
Tom
The Greenpoint tanks, seemingly the last ones left in the city, partially block my view of the Empire State Building.
There was also one near Kings County Hospital. I once dreamed my cat was drowning in it when I was young. Several years later, it too was gone.
The CI tanks were often called "the Beer Can" in ERA meetings when they appeared in slides of pictures like this. Brooklyn Union still owns the land, and wouldn't give any of it to the TA. This is why they will have to rebuild the whole Stillwell complex to add a bypass track, instad of just building it next to track A, as was explained to me by someone in the dispatcher's office.
That F train looks as though it has 7 cars. Was this common back then?
I think so, but I'm not 100% sure. There are still some "7" signs (stop markers) hanging around the Queens Blvd. IND line (D1 track at 71-Continental and 65 St stations)
I seem to remember seeing and riding on 7-car trains of R-7/9s on the Canarsie in 1969-70. And 7-car 1 and 2 trains on weekends in the late 70s.
Back when the cars were independant capabile. Dual cabs, single and footlose!
avid
Two words water tower
CAN YOU READ?
CR2730 (. Can anyone explain what that large object that appears behind the crew
quarters is? Looks like a water tower, but I'm not so sure:)
he said he thought it was a water tower but was not sure. unless you know a lot more about New York Transit then you let on you should not give a definite answer.
could be a fuel tank
It's the tank that holds all the gas that Coney Island needs for when it leaves the mainland for the summer.
-Hank (as long as we were being absurd...)
That is one CLEAN subway car back then. ALOT of subway cars back then was not VERY CLEAN as this subway car in this photo. And how did you get that photo on to your post?
R16 #64065
That photo must have been taken before the graffiti epidemic hit with full force. When the silver and blue paint scheme was first applied, most cars were still clean.
Does anyone know where I can get, or at least view old SEPTA Regional
Rail timetables, primarily from the early and mid 1980's before and
after the Center City Commuter Tunnel was completed? Of the pre-
Commuter Tunnel timetables, I'm mostly interested in the Pennsy side
(Chester/Marcus Hook, Media/West Chester, etc.). Any help would be
greatly appreciated. Thanks.
When was this tunnel built? Also, where did the trains go before this was built?
I think it was done in the early 80s, before then former Pennsy lines would terminate at Suburban while former Reading trains would terminate at Reading Terminal.
Center City Commuter Tunnel
This was the topic of a thread a few weeks ago, and at the time nobody really knew the answer. Now, I'm proud to annouce that I KNOW THE ANSWER! (And no, it wasn't just done for aesthetics or snob appeal. There was a very practical reason for building the station as large as it is.)
Just to refresh your memory, here's a photo of the Canary Wharf stop on London's Tube: http://www.nycsubway.org/eu/uk/london/jubilee/jub-canary05.jpg
You have until I return from Philly on Sunday to post your theories.
(I've you've already done your research and know the answer, sit back and let the other SubTalkers post their theories before you jump in and spoil the fun. Thanks!)
Until then....
-- David
Chicago, IL
Olympia & York dreams. (and since the control system for the line is the same as for SF MUNI Meyro a wag would say you need huge platforms because the trains will usually be delayed especialy in rush hour)
1) The Docklands Light Rail (Canary Wharf is a transfer station between the Underground and DLR, IIRC) as a major feeder of passengers from elsewhere in the Docklands area?
2) Proximity to the City Airport?
Proposed skyscraper development in the Docklands?
Although I should now this I suspect it is because of the projected future passenger load. As the whether the present tube size stock can handle this remains to be seen.
Simon
Swindon UK
All you mugs have been cracking on the Sea Beach. Now, While I am a Culver supporter, I can't Just let you guys dis the Sea Beach. Only #4 Sea Beach Fred defends it, While everybody here else sings the Brighton's praises. The Sea Beach is the best South Bklyn line to run through DeKalb. No other line is like the Sea Beach. Brighton isn't some train 'god'. It's crappy. So there. Brighton must end. Have all the riders take the best line: The Culver.
P.S.- Hey Fred, us 'minorities' gotta stick together.
GANG WARFARE INFILTRATES RAILFAN WORLD
(AP) March 22: Three people are confirmed dead and dozens have been hurt in the third consecutive day of gang violence between four rival groups of gangs trying to take control of south Brooklyn. The Sea Beach "Locals", attempting to gain some respect, were met by a coalition of 3 other gangs, the Brighton "Bad Boyz", the Culver "Cuthroats" and the West End "Westies". The Sea Beachers were quickly overcome because their membership consists of only one person, a man named Fred. Violence then broke out among the remaining groups as the Westies and Bad Boyz accused the Cuthroats of being nothing more than "IND wannabees". The Westies were last seen chasing down the Bad Boyz towards the Bronx, but half of them appeared to have easily eluded their chasers. Curiously, these gangmembers seemed to all have had slanted noses.
heypaul isn't the only lunatic on this board ...
...were met by a coalition of 3 other gangs, the Brighton "Bad Boyz", the Culver "Cuthroats" and the West End "Westies"....
HEY!
I represent the Culver on this board. Anybody else here? No.
I would never ally the Culver with the Brighton, and certainly not the West End.
LOL!
Looks like you're now a confirmed carrier of HPS! :-)
BMTman
We'll know for sure when he starts typing in all lower case. And if we start seeing scrolling messages, we'll know it's full-blown.:-)
N Broadway Line is also a Sea Beach defender.
I beseech you all to tread lightly!
Some or all may find their way into the dismal abyss of the continuing " heypaul CHRONICLES ".
AVID
He's a potential Local's recruit, as I hear.
Since I'm wiped out any one care to send me some flowers?
You'll have to clone yourself, Fred.:-)
Flowers?
I'll send ya a brake handle.
Well every little bit helps. But tell me what a brake handle will do for a guy wiped out in a railfan gang fight?
You can hit someone upside the head with it.
Can't do that with flowers can ya?
>>>GANG WARFARE INFILTRATES RAILFAN WORLD
(AP) March 22: Three people are confirmed dead and dozens have been hurt in the third consecutive day of gang violence
Chris: Great post.
-cordially,
turnstiles
"Have all the riders take the best line: The Culver."
Didn't the Culver Line, a proud part of the BMT undergo "corrective" sugery at Ditmas Ave. back in 1954 ?
Bill "Newkirk"
>>Didn't the Culver Line, a proud part of the BMT undergo "corrective" sugery at Ditmas Ave. back in 1954 ?<<
Yup.
Isn't the WHOLE BMT south going through it now? The Culver via tunnel was the best idea for south bklyn service.
Oh well, enough of us BMT guys waring against each other when we should be waging war against the IRT...........I hereby call a truce !
Bill "Newkirk"
Why don't you guys get a couple of MTH R-21 trains, line them up on a model layout, and ram them into each other to settle the argument :-)
(No, I am not going to donate my model-in-progress for your showdown...
I would have staged a demolition derby using real subway cars. BMT standards, Triplexes, that sort of thing.
A BMT civil war is not good.:-)
TOO LATE! THE IRT ATTACKS!!! WE DEMAND THE ASTORIA LINE BACK!!!!!
;-D Andrew
Oh really!?! It's time for another edition of Smackdown!
-Stef
Bill's right; let's go after the IRT, a decidedly inferior system. We all resurrect ourselves and launch an invasion of the Bronx, but we have to warm Doug not to alert his friends up there. He is one of us and no warning must be issued. Can you imagine Trainloco, Newkirk, Brighton Beach Bob, Q, and the rest of us on the loose in the Bronx. Bring the kids in folks because the terrorists are out in force.
Sounds like The Warriors all over again.:-)
"Sounds like The Warriors all over again.:-)"
Oh my God!! Warriors 2001........gangs on subways with Metrocards.......AAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIEEEEE!!!!!!!!!
Bill "NewkirK"
>>>Bill's right; let's go after the IRT, a decidedly inferior system. We all resurrect ourselves and launch an invasion of the
Bronx,
Talking about the IRT and Brooklyn people, are there any fans of the Brooklyn IRT present? Just asking.
-cordially,
turnstiles
If there are they are keeping silent. In Brooklyn the BMT rules, the IRT is second rate. Only in the Bronx does the IRT rule. How does that sound?
>>>If there are they are keeping silent. In Brooklyn the BMT rules, the IRT is second rate. Only in the Bronx does the IRT rule.
How does that sound?
Fred: Well, Fred, I do think highly of the #7 train in Queens, the "frequent Flushing flyer".
Brookyn , of course, is different. However, the IRT mainline in Brooklyn (Eastern Parkway/Flatbush) has express and local service most of the time. Our N train (on the Sea Beach portion, and also in Astoria), the Culver, and the West End do not. :)
Not at the present....
-cordially,
turnstiles
Like BLASSEMY dass whutt. Get offa da pipe!!! Be shua to see my post related to dis issue.
-ThomasThe R-15Subwayengine >:-(
Aw what the hell ... I'll step on a duck. Just to be a pain, let's not forget that the IND *is* the "subway" ... the other two lines have just all gone to 'el ... say good night, Gracie. :)
Selkirk: Who asked you to put your nose into this IRT vs BMT battle by bringing in the worst system of all? You want in? You can have in but not by advocating that rotten system that was nothing but the retaliation of some goof ball mayor pissed off at the BMT and IRT. Join our BMT gang and you can become a brother. But watch it. Thomas Subway Engine could get bugged if you pick the wrong side. He sent me a message and left our the Peace from it. Think he's mad at me?
Heh. Well, after dancing on the bones of the BRT, Hylan's toy eventually did become part of it. But of course, I'll curry no favor here since I worked the mighty D train. Though I trudged my bones to Stillwell every morning, I lived in the Bronx so the Brighton is actually part of the IND also as far as this former Bronx boy is concerned. So now I must REALLY be on your bad side. Heh.
Ain't no way I'm gonna win, buddy ... I'm on the wrong side of the tracks on the division I worked and an the wrong side of the tracks for being a Brighton employee. So since I ain't got nothing to lose anyway, might as well toss bricks. :)
Rajneesh. Peesh ...
Selkirk: Who asked you to put your nose into this IRT vs BMT battle by bringing in the worst system of all? You want in? You can have in but not by advocating that rotten system that was nothing but the retaliation of some goof ball mayor pissed off at the BMT and IRT. Join our BMT gang and you can become a brother. But watch it. Thomas Subway Engine could get bugged if you pick the wrong side. He sent me a message and left out the Peace from it. Think he's mad at me?
Oh well, have to admit the IND was the best railroad for operating purposes but until hooked up with the BMT was pretty boring.With the exception of one mile or so All under-ground, the only variety in stations or structure for the most part was the color of the tile and even if I loved the R1-9 there was a lot more interesting variety of rolling stock on the other two systems, especially [I lose this round to Fred] car equipment. I also concede the historic rights of way to Fred,the BMT had more variations. Oh well, another cup of coffee to recover from my concessions! Still the IRT man, big ed.
I like the BMT better than the IRT anyway. I think that Brooklyn was the better borough. The Bronx didn't have any place that came close to resembling Coney Island. The old BMT subway cars were nicer than any of the cars that were used on the IRT. Only the BMT had the cars such as the Triplexs, Multi-Sections etc. All the IRT had were the High-Vs and the Low-Vs. The BMT would have always put the IRT to shame. The IRT didn't have a line like the Sea Beach, the Brighton, the Culver and the West End.
BMTJeff
Couldn't have said better myself old buddy. But you just made the Bronx boys mad at you. Do you realize that?
I'm sure that I did that not because the Bronx is bad but I think Brooklyn is better and the BMT was better than the IRT although the IRT was the first subway.
BMTJeff
>>and the BMT was better than the IRT although the IRT was the first subway.<<
Well as The Pontiac commercial says "Wider IS better".
...unless you're trying to go through the Steinway tunnel :-)
BMT WAGES WAR ON IRT!!!
In an unprecedented move, A large coalition of BMT southern gangs arrived in south bronx on Massive BMT Standard cars. The cars, which have not been in service in decades, rammed IRT trains, Blocked switches and caused deneral mayhem in south bronx.
"What the hell are you talking about!?!?" said a confused passenger today on the # 6 line. "I don't know what kind of psycho you are, but just stay away. I've got a can of pepper spray!" Apparently, Pepper spray was out in force today, as numerous South brookylnites arrived at various South Bronx Hospitals.
According to IRT members, service continued rolling smoothly, as they reportedly used R-142's to push the BMT standards out of the way. "Hey, might as well do something with them" said a member of the 180th st. maintenence shop.
No one was arrested, but 4 BMT standards are being held for questioning at the 180th st yard. Reportedly, the gangs from south brooklyn were seen leaving the south bronx shouting: "We'll be back!"
In other news, Triplexes were seen making various moves about Coney Isle......
;-)
Wayyyyyyyyy too much free time...............
>>Wayyyyyyyyy too much free time...............<<
You have no idea.
School let us out early, and i had little punishment (a.k.a. homewotk)
Freddyan' all other BMT loyalists:
Man , wussup wid dis schitt?! The IRT is cearly moah bettah, so youse obviously wanna dis it moah badda??!!! The hatuzz, the hatuzz!!? Woist night-mayah comin' right atcha!!! Locally world-famous street-named Tom-Rok-Ski, hereby commonly known as ThomasTheSubwayEngine, honorary Boricuana/Cubano by unanimous proclamation; Hell's muthufunkin' Kitchen raised is chrowin' his hat inna ring. The IRT RULEZZZZZ, and wantsta remind 'ja that the the "M" in BMT stands for "mass", as in the rabid, ignorant masses, whereas the "I" in IRT stands for "independant", i.e, i.e., moah cultivated, airodyte, moah independantly mindeded, and should be obvious that we is moah betta!!! Fewer lines, fewa route miles, yeah, shuah, but as youse alsready knows, QUALITY beats QUANTITY ANYDAY, and even twice on Sundays.
We in fack transpoat da REAL NYC to and from it's seats of da Foahtune 500, da arts capital, da fashion capital, da shippin' capital, etc, to and from it's daily bizzness, wehereas, the BMT and IND only transport the sorry wannabe/never-gonnabes from their respective hidesouts inna Brooklyn/Queens sattelite suburbs of da REAL NYC, i.e., MANHATTAN!!! Already saboteur squads of IRT loyalists are ridin' trains of #2s and #3s into the suburbs of DA REAL NY, i.e., MANHATTAN, intoo da suburbs uvv Brooklyn an' sabotaging'BMT trackage and jammin' BMT metrocahd readuzz. Evetually da muthu-freakin' MTA will realize the obvious financial boiden in keepin up the MTA in BMT areuzz ,and eventually abandon da BMT in favor of eventual IRT route replacements and expansions. . .
So BMTers, BOW DOWN BEFOAH THE ONE'Z YUUU SERVEs!!!!
I muzt expect youah white flagz befoah tomorroaw at midnight,
Sincerely, oah somethin like dat;
Know therizz only one of me but plenty off youse but youah STILL vastly outnumbudd;
ThomasThe R-15SubwayEngine!!!! >:-)
BOO-YAHHHH!!!!
>>>"I" in IRT stands for "independant"
Thomas: I am sure other people will tell you this too, but the "I" is for "Interborough". The city's IND system (8th Ave. and 6th Ave. lines) was the "Independent" subway.
Since you also say that the "M" in BMT represents "masses" (it means "Manhattan"), you may be posting in jest :)
Yes, the IRT is indipensible in Manhattan.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Just for the record, BMT means Brave Magnificent Trains, while IRT stands of Indescribably Rotten Transit. The IND stands for nothing.
Geez, "'stiles", next your gonna tryta tell me that "MTA" doesn't stand for "Main Transportation Amalagation"?!! What gives?
Well duh, of course I was posting in jest, you rocket scientists!! At least I think I remember I was, 'cause I was so rip-roarin' drunk at the time, it's kinda hard to say!! (My wife and I had a huge blow-out party at the time that was posted, and will probably have another for tonight's DeLaHoya fight!!)
No, but seriously, it's all NYC MTA, the same riders, revenue sources, management, etc., and is an excellent example of how an organization is worth FAR more as a whole than the sum of it's peices.
I'm really glad this whole BMT vs IRT thing is for fun and not of the seriousness of that whole "East Coast" vs. "West Coast" rivalry for example. I'm at least glad to see that after we have gone sooo far off topic with various other debates, e.g., racism, politics,etc., at least we are getting back to the whole "my line/system is better than yours" meat-and-potatos that SubTalk is supposed be about!!!
Peace and GB to all, even BMT riders,ThomasTheIRT R-15SubwayEngineP.S.: And hey, didn't I make that NOO-YAWK verbage come off pretty good!?
Yes, you're all Nooooo Yaaawwwwk Big Thomas, but for a moment I thought you were Rocky Balboa out to make another comeback.
Good God, when did Rocky Balboa get into this fracus? I thought that punch drunk fighter was from Philly where they have Septa. Someone smuggle the old heavyweight into town? Well smuggle him back to the city of Brotherly Love. That was not Thomas I just heard, or did he have too much to drink last night and he's having one hell of a hangover? Nah! It can't be Thomas.
HOW DIJOO GUESS I HAD A NIP OR TWO TOO MANY LAST NIGHT? ARE YOU CLAIRVOYANT? 'CAUSE YOU CORRECTLY GUESSED ABOUT THE 500-PEICE MARCHING BAND I FEEL AND HEAR IN MY HEAD RIGHT ABOUT NOW!!!
But really, peace, G.B., and pray with me for DeLaHoya to WIN tonight,
ThomasTheI.R.T.R-15SubwayEngine!!! (>;-0)
I'm a big DeLaHoya fan myself. Hell, he's a Southern California boy just like me but much younger and, I'm afraid, a hell of a lot better looking and a hell of lot richer.
And yes Oscar won. He stopped that stiff opponent of his in the 5th.
Yes Fred, it was an excellent fight for all to watch, not like some of the heavyweight ones (esp. with Mike Tyson) that are over in the first minute or two. It was particularly bittersweet for me to watch this bout once I learned that Gatti was from Jersey City, where I lived for a few years in the 1980s!!! But man, was that boy hemophiliac or what? But he still put up a very good opposition considering who he was up against!! He seemed genuinely dissapointed and surprised to see the towel thrown in!
No offense, I love the golden boy too, but I just don't realisticly see Oscar besting Trinidad any time soon though, unfortunately. And besides an impressive career, his own CD, a mansion in Bel Air, good looks,a Dodge Viper, and $$$$$ in the bank, what's he got that I don't got?!!!
Today's question for the day: Should the fighter or the cornerman have the final say so in the decision made of throwing in the towel?!
Peace and GB to all, Thomas :-/
P.S. to Fred: If you're a SoCal boy like Oscar, and a big fan of boxing as I am, then you'll just LOVE a show called "Ressurection Boulevard" on Showtime Networks!! It's filmed and named after the same section of East Los that Oscar came out of!!! -Peace, Thomas:-/
For you fans of the Philly Almond Joy cars they were almost a co-star in Rocky, at least the first movie of that series.
And the Almond Joys co-starred in "Maximum Risk" (a movie supposed to be set in New York).
IRT RETALIATES!
Today, a train of r-15's were seen at about smith-9th st. Passengers were confused, as a man who simply identified himself as ThomasTheSubwayEngine shouted and hollered for 'J Trainloco' to come out of hiding. The train held up service on the F culver local for 2 hours, until a train of glistening R-46's blazed by, with the boy in the cab saying as he passed: " Can't touch this you l...." evidently, the train of R-46's was headed to join up with a train of triplexes at Linden shops in Brooklyn that were causing delays on the #3 line.
Peace, J trainloco>;-)
heypaul: often imitated, never duplicated!
What's this about inferior? I thought you were my friend. Oh well, my IRT fleet is safe in my basement in Montana.Haha...the irtman
Big Ed: Oh no, you mean to say you're an IRT buff? Eee gads! Well, for you, I'll make an exception. Yes, I am your friend, and I hope you don't take all this stuff too seriously. I thought this topic was a good idea. I got weighted down with all this racial stuff going on, and, frankly, it was upsetting me, and, apparently, many others as well. So this is good fun, so sit back and enjoy it.
Excellent idea! Well, I WAS a Brooklynite for 9 years..Cypress Hills l968-77.Of course I know your Standards could make mincemeat out of my High-V's and Low-V's but the You Couldn"t Catch the IRT"s!
Have a fine Sunday. Truce today, even in de Bronck. ed.
Yo Uncle Fred ... was cruising the MTA site looking for more on that doctored up picture of the 143's to see what kinda special fooling had been done on it, came across this ultimate piece of Sea Beach blasphemy produced by the predecessor to the TA from the 1940's ... since we were having some fun with this, just wanted to let you see that the cards haven't just been RECENTLY stacked against your favorite ride - seems a tradition. :)
Sounds like the 'BMT Bad Boyz' are gonna soon be loose in da Bronx!
(Unfortunately, I will have to 'sit on the sidelines' as I have a number of comrades 'up north')
All I can say to my buddies in the Boogie Down Bronx is: lock up the women and children -- Dem Bums is heading your way!
Have FUN everybody!
BMTman
I have an idea for the Culver line that would make it even better. Build an elevated structure over 39th Street in Brooklyn so that Culver line trains can connect with the former BMT 4th Avenue line like they once did and then they can go over the Manhattan bridge. You can also keep the connection with the South Brooklyn IND subway line.
BMTJeff
This is stupid, especially when the MTA wants to keep trains OFF the Manhattan Bridge. Not to mention that the Fourth Avenue line has enough trains as it is. This is just POINTLESS nostalgia.
And the line was on a row parallel to and on one side of 37th Street, which is now being filled with new homes.
Bravo J, but I think you are going to bring the Brighton boys out of their holes screaming and kicking, and denouncing you for all you're worth. Well a friendly bantering isn;t bad for morale on this site, but I do believe that a few of them really hate my train. I'll have to ride your Culver on my trip to New York just to show my solidarity. OK Newkirk, Doug, Q and the rest of you Brighton boys, come out of your holes and start swinging.
not a bad idea !
Hey everybody.
I checked out BrooklynRican's interesting thread about interborough rail service for Staten Island. The thread goes on for a bit, I tuned out when I saw that the subject had shifted to racism. (Not that racism isn't a worthy discussion topic, just trying to keep talking about transit.)
All the S.I. subway connections proposed would utilize either crossing the narrows or tunnelling clear across Upper New York Bay, all five or six miles of it.
What about an express yes EXPRESS service from Staten Island to, say, midtown Manhattan, utilizing NEW JERSEY as the conduit?
(I suppose New Jersey residents are a little sick of the concept of "utilizing New Jersey as the conduit," and maybe even sick of that phrase verbatim. But it seems to me that geographically, it offers the most direct way, with more flexibility when it comes to water crossings. SI-Brooklyn crossings seem pretty much limited to the Narrows, in terms of economy of planning. With Jersey, you have your pick of overwater corridors, and then you can easily shoot northward up the Hudson's west bank like a normal person; you don't have to construct no six-mile tunnel!!! And once you're at Manhattan's latitude, you again have a wider selection of where you want to cross the river - you wouldn't have to try and tear up South Ferry or Whitehall Street to accommodate a new connection (granted, you'd have to tear up midtown...)
OR, you could AVOID tearing up midtown by making this a PATH extension. PATH already has the bureaucratic blessing to provide interstate transit; why not build a branch - with express service - running south from say, Pavonia/Newport all the way down Staten Island's way? And all the necessary Manhattan and Manhattan-to-New-Jersey infrastructure is already in place.
Yes, I believe PATH holds the key for better terrestrial connections between these two boroughs. That is what I believe.
(Make no mistake, I also believe it would be indescribably MORE FUN to build more huge tunnels and bridges and viaducts and keep the whole thing inside the city, but I'm just trying to provide practical perspectives as well.)
Very interesting idea about PATH, how many miles of tunneling and through what communities? Also there's an idea floating around here to connect HBLR to SI.
Arti
[Very interesting idea about PATH, how many miles of tunneling and through what communities? Also there's an idea floating around here to connect HBLR to SI.]
I never quite understood why they didn't make HBLR to PATH -- capacity issues, perhaps? One possibility I toyed with once is service from SI via HBLR then into Manhattan via PATH. Kind of slow, though -- I don't think any practical NJ route can compete with high speed ferries for quick Manhattan access.
The HBLR connects to 2 PATH stations Pavonia/Newport and Exchange Place. Exchange Place being the terimus of the IOS.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
[The HBLR connects to 2 PATH stations Pavonia/Newport and Exchange Place. Exchange Place being the terimus of the IOS.]
I don't know exchange place, but IIRC Pavonia/Newport is a block away.
What does IIRC and IOS mean?
if i recall correctly
and "FWIW"... For What I W___?
FWIW...For What It's Worth.
MARTA......come one now, y'all heard it.....
The connection at Exchange Place is intermodal, ie both train services are in close proximity. As to Newport/Pavonia, you are correct- you have to walk a block or so...
There's talk of a new passage way from the lower mezz level of Pavonia to the area of the HBLR station. It wouldn't shorten the walk, but it would keep it out of the weather and eliminate a major street crossing.
[There's talk of a new passage way from the lower mezz level of Pavonia to the area of the HBLR station. It wouldn't shorten the walk, but it would keep it out of the weather and eliminate a major street crossing.]
And a strange trip through a building lobby -- makes sense.
They should really consider one of those moving walkways! I understand that that PATH station actually had one at one point.
Did you guys read the other posts about the new HBLR station in Bayonne which is now under construction and due to open in 2003? What about a new MTA express bus (would require an agreement with NJ) or Port Authority bus service, or NJ Transit bus connection across the Bayonne Bridge (if there isn't one already) to the station? SI folks could then ride HBLR to PATH and then to Manhattan.
OK, it's not pure rail - but it's a starting point.
What about all of those busses terminating at Port Richmond? If some of them were extended to Bayonne, that would be useful.
Yes, Ibelieve you're right.
Do that, I can guarentee there will be people in New Jersey complaning that they put all the tax money into HBLR and the people from New York are the ones getting all the seats at the beginning of the ride, after taking the bus over from Staten Island. They will then demand either New York forks over some $$ to pay for the thing or buses from SI be banned from stopping near any of the HBLR stations.
Yes, there will be a few orangutans throwing excrement at these services - but hopefully they can be bought off.
Besides, more people means the farebox fills up. That's always good...
The fare could also be discouraging, $1.5 for HBLr + $1.5 for PATH versus, $1.5 for SIRT, ferry, subway.
Arti
Those are tourist rates. Commuters pay less per ride.
I'm sure you'd love to buy three monthly passes every month.
You can't operate HLBR to SI because it is run by NJT and NJT can't operate in NYC. You also can't use PATH because that is Port Authroity Trans HUDSON and SI is not accross the Hudson. You would need a new agency, PATK or Port Auth. Trans Kill. Either that or give SI back to New Jersey.
"You can't operate HLBR to SI because it is run by NJT and NJT can't operate in NYC. You also can't use PATH because that is Port Authroity Trans HUDSON and SI is not accross the Hudson. You would need a new agency, PATK or Port Auth. Trans Kill."
Nonsense. All you need is an agreement between the two states to do it, and a capital budget to cover the cost of acquiring ROW,. doing environmental studies, etc. etc.
"Either that or give SI back to New Jersey."
Only if they are willing to trade Jersey City, Union City and Hoboken for it, including the whole west shore. We'll rename them York City, New Union City and (????) It will be a new borough for NY.
Absolutely right. Besides, NJT already operates to NYC. (Been to NYP or the PA bus terminal lately.)
Or the GWB terminal, Penn Station, Suffern (granted-It's a terminal), Port Jervis...
"You can't operate HLBR to SI because it is run by NJT and NJT can't operate in NYC."
Is that some sort of Law? the Mbta runs to Rhode island.
"You can't operate HLBR to SI because it is run by NJT and NJT can't operate in NYC."
Is that some sort of Law? the Mbta runs to Rhode island.
That's the Law of Jersey Mike.
NJT runs into NYP and PHL.
But only as a terminal, not a service.
No problem. We just don't let the HBLR stop anywhere in SI before it gets to whatever terminal it uses.
But is that the type of service SI'ers are looking for?
[But is that the type of service SI'ers are looking for?]
As I recall it was actually a New Jersey official who first proposed running the light rail line to Staten Island.
And SEPTA runs into New Jersey and Delaware.
An NJT to New York and Pennsylvania.
Metro-North to New Jersey and Connecticut.
[You can't operate HLBR to SI because it is run by NJT and NJT can't operate in NYC. ]
OK get your NJT trains off the Penn Station right away but not later than Monday.
[You also can't use PATH because that is Port Authroity Trans HUDSON and SI is not accross the Hudson.]
Hoboken is not a port, so stop PATH trains to Hoboken!
Arti
Sure it is. There is even a shipyard there. (Not to mention the ferry terminal.)
No, stop running trains to Harrison and Newark.
It's Port Authority Trans-Hudson, not Port Authority Trans-Passaic or Port Authority Trans-Hackeysack.
All PATH trains eventually cross the Husdon. NWK-WTC, WTC-HOB, JSQ-33RD and HOB-33RD.
The same thing would happen to any PATH train to Staten Island via New Jersey.
At least you got it! :-)
Arti
Not only do NJ Transit trains run to Manhattan, but they also run to Rockland and Orange Counties, by arangement with Metro-North. Why couldn't you have a similar deal with Staten Island-Manhattan via NJ?
And PATH is more than just trans-Hudson. It serves a considerble part of Northeastern New Jersey--for peanuts when you consider its scope (even with the new fare.)
:-) Andrew
Not only do NJ Transit trains run to Manhattan, but they also run to Rockland and Orange Counties, by arangement with Metro-North. Why couldn't you have a similar deal with Staten Island-Manhattan via NJ?
That service is considered Metro North, not NJT. NJT dosen't run past Sufferen. If NY is too uptight about giving NJT money to run as NJT while in NY then an NJT HLBR won't run onto Staten Island (until the island is returned).
"Returned"? New Jersey never owned Staten Island, at least politically.
PATH doesn't have to cross the Hudson the same way the SAT is no longer a student aptitude test. As for why NJT can't operate in NY: get the MTA so chip in, put a few Ms on some LRVs and start MTA-Staten Island Light Rail. Have the MTA pay for operations within NYC. Basically, do the same thing Metro-North does with Connecticuit and NJT.
I'm pretty sure Staten Island was never part of New Jersey. However, I have to wonder why the NY-NJ border was drawn the way it is. SI clearly looks like it should be in New Jersey.
:-) Andrew
Because both sides of the Hudson Valley and the NY Bay where in the New Netherlands colony, later New York. New Jersey was not founded to include that section, but it eventually became a vassal of New York. When they were split up, NJ got everything west of the Hudson.
The matter of Staten Island however, was not settled. Both claimed it as theirs. NJ said that it was geographically west of the Hudson's line of longitude, so it was in NJ. But NY believed that it was never granted to NJ so it stayed part of NY.
The King ordered a boat race around the island. The boat representing New York finished first, New York got Staten Island.
That is a very nice idea. It isn't very far from Exchange Place or Journal Square to the northern part of Staten Island. Of course, would you terminate the train just as it reached SI's shore or would you provide service to a connecting point on the Staten Island Railway at St. George?
Wouldn't it be cool to ride the subway (el of course) and post a message to Subtalk from a cell phone?
Is it possible to build such a thing? I'm willing to volunteer to work on it.
Dats cool!
If they were to wire the subways to cell access, you could connect you PAlm, PC, Mac or whatever to your cell phone and do it, could on justify to pay per minute to do so depends on your disposable income :-)
Soon I'll see if Ricochet will work, also I highly doubt it, but it's a $80 flat fee.
Arti
The trick is to work for an employer who gives you a laptop and cellphone, like me :) (of course they compensate by paying half the industry average).
Hank Eisenstein has beaten you to it... he's posted using a wireless modem from his laptop.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was talking about a wireless web channel to use the actual phone.
It's obvious that someone can connect to Subtalk using a laptop. Doing that isn't noteworthy at all.
I thought Hank uses a palmpilot?
I was comin from John Jay today because my bro goes there. I had my camera taking pics, because I hear the R68A's are soon going to be removed from the B and D line, and replaced with R32's. Anyway I asked him did W Line Train begin yet, and he told me no, they probably don't have any lined up yet, but they should. I was like why? He says Because We T/O's are not used to going over that side of the Bridge. I was like to myself, is training really necessary? All the W is going to do is use the Bway Exp tracks( they already use the EXp tracks for Yard Deadheading!) and the south side of the bridge is no different from the North side. All a T/O has to do is carry a copy of Peter Dougherty's book and they will know what lineups to take when crossing over south of the Bridge b4 Dekalb. Anyway when I become a T/O I wil carry my Copy of the Tracks of the New York City subway. I find it helpful in many areas. Like today a Southbound A pulled into 59th. The T/O also asked me to press the Route Request button for the A. I was like u already got ur bottom green. He was like how did u know that I need to take a Bottom Green? I was like, I got the track maps!
WHAT???
R68/R68A stay on the D/Q after July but I hear the R40s are going to be Brighton or on the V maybe. Either way, the R68 will have some connection to Brighton.
>>R68/R68A stay on the D/Q after July but I hear the R40s are going to be Brighton or on the V maybe<<
D-R68s outta concourse
Qexp-R68s
Qloc-R40s
V-R-46's (from G and F)
G-R68's.
I heard from someone today that the R40s go to the V. I don't believe it. My prediction is
D-Concourse R68
(Q)-CI R68
< Q >-CI R40
V-JAM R46
G-CI R68
THE TA SHOULD ORDER NEW ROLL SIGNS FOR THE R40s!
You got that right!! If the R68's go to Q exp it aint gonna be much of an express, the locals won't be more than a minute behind the express.
The TA should just get new signs or paste them on. Cmmon, how much could lots of poster paper and tape cost? The TA is soooo cheap!
urrghh...
Are there enough 40 Slants for Brighton Local rush service?
I don't think so...
And what praytell is so stupid about this T/O? The Bway side of the bridge hasn't been used in over 11 years which means that the large majority do not know (myself included), or have forgotten the lineups along this stretch of track. Also the T/O's need to learn where the timers are and how fast to approach them. Whether training is taking a light train along this stretch, or literature explaining the area, the training is definitely required.
Yo man - like chill. You ain't gonna convince the dude 'cause he knows a bottom green when he see's one. I was like wow when I read how smart he is.
iiiiiiiiiiiight!!!
No training is needed. Those brand spanking NEW signals on the south side of the bridge will work JUST like the old ones on the North side. The new rail and switches won't have any problems. You have no faith in TA Managment!! >tic<
But they need training on the "leads" from Prince St. to DeKalb Ave. in both directions. A goodly number of t/o's have never operated on this stretch of real estate.
I'd like to know what A Train operator needs a passenger to punch for lineups that he would ask a man with a camera from an R68A. Hell, on the B line, the punch is on the wall on A1. I need to discharge my train NOW.
I thought the same thing. The story is obviously BS. The lineup is never displayed on A-3 (or A-1 for that matter) until the T/O punches. Otherwise it's always red. Many times when waiting at 59th St. southbound, if the train stops with the punch beyond arms reach, I'll punch for the operator. However, most would get annoyed (at best) to find a passenger punching for them.
They do have cameras pointed at the front of the trains now at the south ends of the station for A1 and A3 track. They can see what train is there, and one supt was heard on the base station ordering a T/O to close the cab door. BTW, did you get the pics of 1909 and the Union Square cars loading to the barge? I got an error message user not known.
Nope, didn't get the pics but I heard the operation went very well. Please try to re-send them.
"I was like why?" Can you possibly translate this for me?
"I was like u already got ur bottom green" While you're at it, I can use help with this one too.
"I was like to myself, is training really necessary?" What language is this?
"and the south side of the bridge is no different from the North side." Oh, okay! So we can cancel all of the 'route familiarization' training then?
I really want to thank you for proving that the job of train operator should include a requirement for some college.
'like cowabonga dude'
Maybe we should give privatization of public schools a chance after all. And the next Mayor should stay on the behinds of the CUNY board as well!
It's absolutely amazing how some parents are still against privatization of the schools.They're being brainwashed by the Democrats. Unfortunately,I don't think Edison will get a chance to get into any of the five worst performing schools.
Dare we go here? It's relavent but let cooler heads prevail!!!!
I live right next to the Harlem school under consideration for this plan. And my entire neighborhood is littered with "Down with Edison or Say no to Edison" posters. You'd think Edison was owned and operated by the Third Reich or something.
Logic would dictate that if the NYC Board of Education and the local school boards cannot get the job done, the parents with children in the failing schools would welcome help and ideas form another quarter. Yet the parents, at least the ones we see on the nightly news are adamantly against Edison. I'd say that this smacks of the Good Reverend Al Sharpton. It would seem that he's marshalling his throngs because, presumably, Edison will not PAY proper tribute to the 'Rotund One'.
Time to inquire once more as to the owner of the ox. He's the one behind the anti-Edison movement.
...presumably, Edison will not PAY proper tribute to the 'Rotund One'.
My presuption is that they have already paid off Messrs. Guiliani and Levy. I gues they discriminate against fat people as opposed to fat cats. :-)
Perhaps & perhaps not. There is no evidence of such pay-offs to either the Mayor or the Schools Chancellor or the press would be all over it. However, this has been the well documented M.O. of Jessie Jerkson and "His Tubbiness". They have been extorting corporate America with impunity for years.
...the press would be all over it.
Newspaper publishers do not send their children to public school. Their sole interest in public education is to ensure that it uses as little tax money as possible. This tax money is better spent in subsidizing printing plants. The only time I would expect to see the press to be all over it would be to expose "waste" or "corruption" but never neglect. If a Schools' Chancellor ever suggested that the Mayor should spend proportionately the same amount as the surrounding area on education, he railroaded out of town. The last two were.
"The only time I would expect to see the press to be all over it would be to expose "waste" or "corruption" but never neglect."
My point, exactly. In your previous post, you stated that Edison hap likely paid off the mayor and schools chancellor. If this is true, then why hasn't the media been all over the story? After all, they just blasted Jessie (marbles) Jackson for extorting millions from some of this country's biggest corporations.
In your previous post, you stated that Edison hap likely paid off the mayor and schools chancellor. If this is true, then why hasn't the media been all over the story?
There are several scandals in the Education business and no heros. The yearly per capita spending has remained at $8000 throughout the Guiliani administration, compared to $10,000 for financially strapped Yonkers. Some of this is due to the currently declared unconstitutional state aid formula. However, much has to do with smaller per capita expenditures by the City compared to other communities.
This extra $2000 between NYC and Yonkers would mean an extran $2 billion in City taxes - not an insignificant amount. If this were presented to the public, there would be an outcry to raise some taxes and significantly cut back on the subsidies the City gives to the media. There is a danger that this genie cannot be bottled up indefinitely with greater numbers of students not being educated or being placed in scandously overcrowded and dilapidated schools.
This is where Edison comes in, like any promoter. They promise to do more for less. The power brokers love them - they can keep their subsidies and their tax bill will not rise. The publishers are not interested in doing any digging. Their interest has been protected.
Can Edison deliver and over whose body? Test scores are inconclusive. Their employees are expected to work longer hours for no pay increase. It is not difficult to understand why the unions are against them. This provides further incentive for the publishers to keep their blinders on. When was the last time any newspaper took the side of a union in any labor dispute? The publishers have their own union problems. The parents' objections are also easy to understand. The schools are accountable to local officials. An Edison school will have no such accountablilty.
After all, they just blasted Jessie (marbles) Jackson for extorting millions from some of this country's biggest corporations.
Jackson's mistake was to pressure newspaper publishers to change their hiring practices. He became a marked man as soon as he demanded that the publishers practice what they preached on their editorial pages.
I'm not saying the story isn't true. I'm saying that the most important stories are those that aren't printed.
"Can Edison deliver and over whose body? Test scores are inconclusive. Their employees are expected to work longer hours for no pay increase. It is not difficult to understand why the unions are against them. This provides further incentive for the publishers to keep their blinders on. When was the last time any newspaper took the side of a union in any labor dispute?"
Edison can't and won't deliver. Why? Two major reasons. First, because the local Pols. and activists are against it. Lest we wrest control of failing schools from the control of those who have not succeeded except to line their own pockets and those of their cronies. Second, because in order for any educational institution to succeed, there needs to be follow-up after school. Sadly in the poorer areas, parental guidance is lacking due to either a single parent household or a parent/parents forced to work more than one job. Then too, there is the feeling in some quarters that it's the school's job alone to educate the kids.
Besides these reasons, a lot will have to do with on which side of the issue the teacher's union falls.
Edison can't and won't deliver.
I have no doubt that Edison will fail educationally, for many reasons, including those that you enumerated. What I meant by "deliver" was contain costs and keep the parents quiet. Managed care isn't quite the wonder drug it was touted to be a decade and a half ago. I'm sure we will have Congress debating a "Pupil's Bill of Rights" after the Charter School snake oil wears off.
Speaking as a NYCT Train Operator with 20 years experience, I deeply resent your remark that the man is stupid. I may be a railfan, but that is not a pre-requisite that my fellow t/o's have to be railfans. And you should realise that yourself as well! In addition, Peter's book is not TA standard issue! Your motor instructor (TSS) will give you the lineups! The present plans are for R68 cars to be used on the B & D with excess cars transfered to CI. For a train operator, crossing the Manny B, one side or the other looks the same, but the leads to it on the Manhattan and Brooklyn sides are much different. For example, after passing Prince St. there are several timers down the hill and a sweeping left curve into Canal St. Since that side of the bridge has been closed for 11 years, we have a hell of a lot of t/o's who never made that move before and never rode it because most t/o's are not buffs!
Don't forget the whole mess at DeKalb waiting on the other side. And the fact that there are two possible ways one can get to the 'local' track at DeKalb from the south side, T/Os will probably have to be familiarized with both. And let's not forget the reverse direction as well. If the T/Os are not familiarized beforehand, it would probably be like blindfolding a rat and sending it through a maze. They would go wherever the tower sends them.
Sample thought process from DeKalb to bridge: "So bottom yellow takes me here, okay, wait a minute I'm going down a ramp what the hell is this the Montague?, no I'm coming back up so this is good. I wish these stupid flashing white lights would aw crap! (brakes slam on hard) Whew that was close. Okay, going up now, this looks like the bridge. Okay, I'm good." (Leaving Canal). "Wow, now it's just the Broadway express, I'm used to that (puts controller into series). What?! 10 Miles" (too late flashing white light passes by) brakes squeal and a TSS gets up from the chair and table set up for the sole purpose of catching this and gives him a pre-written... Okay, maybe exaggeration but this is the importance of familiarization which the original poster did not seem to realize.
[If the T/Os are not familiarized beforehand, it would probably be like blindfolding a rat and sending it through a maze.]
Kinda like the TO who drove that train on Nov. 1, 1918. The TO wasn't used to that S curve, went through at an excessively high speed (limit is 6 mph), and... well... you know what happened next.
Of course, crash bang smash -- BRMT.
It's not so much whether they're used to or know the line, as it is official "qualification". I know right off the bat the line, and that it will be a bottom yellow at Myrtle to get onto it, and bottom greens along Bway to stay on the exp. (bottom yellow around 34th to switch over to the local tracks to Astoria), and I know many other routes, (from Dougherty's book, and from my own watching) but I can't just tell my instructors "I know all those lines", and have them just take my word for it and send me out there. Every T/O must have been taken on every line of their division (A or B), and we're also shown each yard. So later in the class, we're going to go out and simulate runs on each BMT/IND route (except for the OPTO shuttles, apparently). Then we will be officially qualified to operate those lines (after we do road posting under qualified T/O's and finish the course.) We have to show them that we have seen the line and experienced it.
I'm not sure what the policy is for T/O's who were around to operate the old , but I'm sure RTO will take no chances and requalify them for the lines.
It's just like 63rd St: it was only about 1500 or so from the bumping block to the connection, and only one additional home signal that had to be passed, but everyone had to go through it.
BTW, you won't be qualified for OPTO until you pick a job that has OPTO duties.
Figured that. Don't care for it.
I never really watched a T/O pull a set of R32's into the parsons boulevard storage area, but one Motorman told me they usually give a yellow over green proceed with caution on main route. Today I saw the homeball 946 on track one give a Call-on! I never saw a call on b4. not only that, he also let me push the stop arm release. Anyway the speed limit into there is 10, I swear he flew in there about thirty. He flew as if the E was leavin sutphin. And thats fast enuf to watch the TailCar fly out Quick!
3 lay ups can fit on each track. The first trains to go in on each track get a yellow over green. The following trains get call ons.
And the reason why is that part of the instruction for a call on is "operate with restricted speed and extreme caution expecting to find track occupied, a broken rail or other obstruction..." With the trains already in there, they can't give a clear signal, because the block ahead is occupied, and the next train have to pull up dangerously close to it. So a train going to straight to the bumping block could get the regular lineup signal, (or they could still give it the call-on, or 3 yellows, which is a yard or spur indication signal that carries the same caution as a call-on, only you don't have to operate the lever).
Thurs., while you were seeing this, my class got to practice taking the call on and keying by (on the Jamaica yard leads)
... I wonder where da Third Rail is?
Just in time for the first robins of Spring is the Winter issue of The Third Rail. (Don't ask--Thank you.)
Featuring the first installing of the late great Felix Reifschneider's History of the LIRR. He was a good writer and I think it's fascinating reading.
Re: Felix Feifschneider's History of the Long Island Rail Road, I posted the previous message in a hurry after my eyes were glazing over rereading what I put on rapidtransit.net.
I wonder if SubTalk fans will find this piece as interesting as I did. I never really appreciated how old the LIRR is. The first line, from Brooklyn to Jamaica, started service less than a decade after the very first common carrier railroad anywhere in the world!
And, save for the portion of the line from the Brooklyn shore to Atlantic and Flatbush, you can still ride the entire original line (though not all original right-of-way) from Brooklyn to Greenport.
The next installment (about a week or two, I hope) will cover the South Side lines (like Babylon) and some early history of the Culver, Brighton, and Manhattan Beach Lines.
Two of the more interesting things I found were:
1. People had to guess when the train would come. Sometime between 8 1/4 AM and 9 AM, or 1 PM and 1 3/4 PM. Neat.
2. Brooklyn to Greenport in 3 1/2 hours? In 150 years we barely shaved off a half hour!
Quick note:
-On the way up the engineer was smoking in the front MU cab/vestabule. I could not detect any smoke comming through the door.
On the trip back I saw...
-A pueudo 4 block signaling: Clear, approach med, approach, stop
-Ticket collector didn't pass through until after Overbrook.
-I had gotten on at Bryn Mawr (zone 3) but nobody noticed when I handed in a zone 2 ticket (unexpected change of plan on my part).
-Engineer was a real speed demon. Speeds hit 60+ between stops and maxed out at 75 between OVERBROOK and ZOO.
-Crews change at Suburban Station (why?) they punch out and dump the train.
-BRYN MAWR tower is still there and most signals are still 100% PRR Amber (VERY visable at night).
Depending on the time of day, crews change at Suburban. Some are changing shifts, some are turning. If you see this after 6 PM it's usually a shift change.
I found it interesting a few weeks back when witnessing a crew change on R6. This was right on the heels of the 3 dragging incidents. Everywhere there were announcements, printed postings, etc about not running for trains. I caught a Silverliner 3 set at U City and we paused at Suburban for the crew change. I was sitting on the platform side. A couple of conductors boarded the train, but one was standing by the door schmoozing with a woman. I figured he was awaiting another train. Suddently, our train began to pull out, and the conductor seemed startled to see this. As it turned out, he was part of our crew. So, what did he do - he ran for the train and leaped into the open door once he caught up with the train (which was going slowly, as usual in this area). What a good example! I was afraid we were going to have another dragging...
Many have stated that when the Manhattan bridge reroutes happen, the diamond Q (brighton express) will be all R68 due to the lack of a diamond Q on the rollsign of R40s. Can't people just tell the difference by looking at the train? Or do like 7 train riders do, listen to the announcement for an express or local.
This is ridiculous. Those lumbering Hippos should not be on the brighton express line for such a stupid, cosmetic reason.
Us railfans (as well schedules) shouldn't suffer just because some stupid riders can't distinguish the shape of a train from another and not hear announcements.
IT'S JUST RIDICULOUS!!!!!
It will be worked out that the R40's will be on the part time express and the R68's will be on the 24/7 local.
Is it even possible to swap the R40S and R68/A rollsigns so that the R68/A will have the yellow diamond Qs instead?
CORRECTION! I mean: the R40S will have the yellow diamond Qs instead
Yes, at least one way. There are a few R-68s with R-40 side rollsigns. Don't know about the reverse, or wether the front sine can have this done.
Actually, I think the R-68s can get R-40/40M/42 front signs, I remember a while back an N T/O called in a complaint that his front sign on his R-68 was stuck on M. Sure enough, a few minutes later it rolls by, a big brown 75' M on the Broadway local.
[Sure enough, a few minutes later it rolls by, a big brown 75' M on the Broadway local.]
That would've made a great picture!
I wonder why those 75 foot cars even have signs for BMT-E lines, where 75 foot cars can't run. The newest signs don't have BMT-E lines or terminals on them. I have a picture (in Transit Pictures 5) with an R68 sign stuck between (K) and (L).
The TA shoud just have new signs my up so all the train will have the same signs. I also think that the TA shoud have used another letter for the Q Express, like the "X" train. This way people would be able to tell them better. As for the new termals the Express will run for 57st and 7ave to Brightbeach and the Local will run to Stillwell Ave. This is on the timetable that just came out. We start picking on Monday March 26th. It when will go into effect July 1st. There is no timetable yet for the V train. For what I heard this won't happen for a few more mouths after this pick. So there might be another pick soon.
Robert
No, when the 68's have 40 signs, you can see that they're narrower, so the 68 signs wouldn't fit in the 40 or 42 boxes. I always wondered why they didn't use the same size rollers for all of them. The 40/42 boxes have more empty spaces on the sides.
That would be nice.
I just have a few questions...
Have you been on a R40 on the Brighton Express? Have you been on the R68/R68A on the Brighton Express. Tell me, were the passenger loads exactly the same? Were they leaving the station on the same track from the same exact point? Was your stop watch timing correctly? Were they the same train operator? Were the conditions such as wind the same exact thing? If the answer to ANY of these questions is no, you shouldn't be judging. That R68 is moving a hell of a lot faster than you.
I like the R68/As regardless if some folks here think they're slow or they're ugly. They aren't all that bad. Those 75-footers seem to give more impression of spaciousness. Of course they're not THAT ugly. And if they start slower and brake slower, I wouldn't have noticed that had I not been on this board. I think some folks just complain too much!
The only thing I dislike about the 68/a is that damned scratched paneling. Replace it with either R-42 style metal paneling or R-142 / R-44 / R-46 walls, and they would move up my ladder of 'best B div car classes' to second and fourth place (R-46/R-68A/R-44/R-68). Please not that that is not my favorite car class list.
I've been on the Brighton express numerous times. Once on a D (R68) that got rerouted due to a G.O., and that D crawled compared to the Q.
On 6th ave, the R40s do alot better in the dash than the R68s. It often happens that the Q gets stuck behind a lumbering B or D at 34th and is either held or has slow express ride to W4th.
On Broadway, with the G.O.s having express service the Hippo N's are alot slower than the R32's.
The difference wasn't as big as a Corvette compared to a Kia right?
Actually a comparsion would be like this
R40-Corvette
R68-Ford Taurus
R68A-Nissan Altima
The R68A's on the B are faster and give a better ride than the 68's on the D. The R68A's are similar in speed to the R46's. The R68's on the D are slower than em' both.
Even R44's and 46's are alot better than those lumbering Hippos.
STOP COMPLAINING!!!!!
1. While r-68's are slower than r-40's, it really won't be that noticeable. Even still, it really shouldn't matter to a rider, who is just looking to get a seat. Us railfans might complain, but will the TA change anything because you don't want a 'slower' car on your express? Nope.
2. Granted, the 7 might be able to do this, but that's because there rollsigns for both the 7 exp. and the 7 local . It's not just a matter of announcements.
Don't inconvenience riders, and spend TA money because the R-68's are too slow. Can the R-68's go over 40? yes. That's good enough.
I must have missed earlier postings on the Manny B train routings, but saw it today - and was shocked.
Weekend Train Routes Now Weekend Train Routings After MB Flip
Bridge Tunnel Bridge Tunnel
B N Changed (no W) N (Unchanged)
D R Unchanged (Q, was D) R (Unchanged)
It's not a capacity problem. Why was the W shortchanged over the weekend? Makes no sense to me. And it will end at Pacific St? W riders will have to change to an N or R and go the long, slow way to Manhattan through the tunnel. Or go one stop to DeKalb Ave. and change again for the Q. Or will the N run express on the bridge over the weekend?
If the northside tracks can handle B, D and Q trains, why can't the southside tracks handle W and Q trains, or even W, N and Q trains? There's less trains per hour on weekends also, I think?
Can anyone explain the "wisdom" or need with this decision?
Mike Rothenberg
Can't explain the wisdom but you can transfer between the W and Q at Pacific. Pacific is part of the Atlantic Ave Complex
Pacific is part of the Atlantic Ave Complex
It's called the Panama Canal.
If the B, D, N and R run to Manhattan on weekends for years, why can't they continue (as W, Q, N and R) when the bridge flip occurs?
If the 2 Q's will turn at 57/7th during weekdays, when the bridge flip occurs, why can't the Q and W turn on weekdays?
The Pacific St. transfer, for W riders means up the stairs, across to the Atlantic Ave. station, down the stairs. Not a user-friendly transfer, and one that is not needed at all.
What is the B ridership over the bridge into Manhattan on weekends now? How does that compare with N ridership, and R ridership, on weekends now? I'd imagine it is higher than each and it makes no sense to truncate that line. Why truncate any of them?
Mike Rothenberg
To repeat, there was a faint mention some time ago that the Bridge might only be open on weekdays during this period. (forgot where I got that from.)
(I wouldn't be surprised, because the S side has been unused for so long, and to switch all the traffic over suddenly will probably really put a strain.)
Just think: when the Stillwell complex is closed down, and only the W goes there, then Coney Island, (with it's brand new stadium), will have no direct subway service anywhere on weekends! (CoughRidgewoodL&Mlinecough!)
In the dispatcher's office there, they told me that because of the stadium, this is being fought, and they may try going back to a one line cut out at a time plan.
>>And it will end at Pacific St?<<
Thought it said 36th st. Doesn't matter, the W should go to 57/7th. But, you know TA logic. They figure that Broadway will be overserved on weekends. That's the Wisdom. Make people ride to Bklyn for the shuttle, because Broadway won't need 4 lines on the weekends. As it stands, it doesn't need 5 on weekdays.
I've been itching to ask:
How many times can I swipe a 1-DAY
UNLIMITED FUN PASS through one single
turnstile before it "locks up"?
(If applicable) How many minutes must
pass before an UNLIMITED FUN PASS can
be swiped again (at a different station)?
FrozenCurious
Don't know what you mean by the first, but for the second I know you can use it at any other station as fast as you can get there. I've swiped in at South Ferry and walked over to Bowling Green and swiped in there within 5 minutes of the first swipe.
Have yet to try it, but I have always wanted to do this with a group of friends. Buy a fun pass and say you are with 3 friends one person swipe at 34th St get on, next person run to 28th St get on, next person run to 23rd St get on, next person run to 18th St etc. Now that is quite a distance to run, but everyone just got on for a buck, now if you do it in the other direction then it only will cost $.50 a ride. Or you could wait for a bus instead of run.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
PS. I also know if a station has a pedestrian transfer, it still will have the 18 minute rule. IE (TS and PABT) I've tried it, doesn't work.
You are fare beaters! An unlimited ride MetroCard is good for the purchaser only. The only time it can be shared is if you (ther purchaser) are not using the card- ie you are home sick. The 18 rule rule applies between swipes at the same station. We also have a pass-back feature (wait between swipes) on our employee passes too! I have had to wait to enter the other side of a station after having gone to the street(no crossover or croassunder.)
The reason beging gates to unlock with no emergency gate and therefore I had to use a commercial MetroCard to reenter.
If you are in the same station with the same turnstiles, you have to wait 18 minutes before using it again. You can enter at another station with no restriction. Re-Entering at another exit of the station, I'm not sure.
if you re-enter at the same station using another entrance you still have the pass-back(18 minute wait) restriction. Our employee passes have a shorter pass-back but we do have a pass-back provision. I encountered this while opening gates at 46th Street Station on the R in Queens. I opened the manhattan bound gates at the Queens end and then Queens end of the Queens Bound Plat. I swiped back in on the Manhattan Plat to go to the booth(Manhattan end of Manhattan Bound Plat.) I then had to cross the street (No crossover) and swipe back in to get the train to Woodhaven on the R-I had to use my commercial MetroCard. The following week I found the secret- Open Queens Bound, Open Manhattan Bound (cross the street). Cross the street again and use emergency gate on the Queens Bound plat. Walk the plat and exit at manhattan end. Sign at the booth,ask to be buzzed in. Walk the plat to the Queens end, exit, cross the street, use emergency gate to reenter Queens Plat.
Sorry for the appearance of the table I created in my last e-mail. It looked OK when I created it. What I was trying to show was that the weekend N and R tunnel trains are unchanged, before and after the flip, and the Q (was D) bridge train is unchanged, too. Only the B (now W) train is shortened to it doesn't go over the bridge on weekends.
Following is the rest of my posting.
It's not a capacity problem. Why was the W shortchanged over the weekend? Makes no sense to me. And it will end at Pacific St? W riders will have to change to an N or R and go the long, slow way to Manhattan through the tunnel. Or go one stop to DeKalb Ave. and change again for the Q. Or will the N run express on the bridge over the weekend?
If the northside tracks can handle B, D and Q trains, why can't the southside tracks handle W and Q trains, or even W, N and Q trains? There's less trains per hour on weekends also, I think?
Can anyone explain the "wisdom" or need with this decision?
Mike Rothenberg
Trains were backed up from High st to West 4th, even between stations! Trains in tunnels were being instructed to 'get a door into the station'! A C train ended up on the F (well, I kinda expected more than one train to do that, oh well...). Some Cs ended up turning at WTC! What happened?
Flooding??
This morning on the Q same thing. I think the cold weather plan was in effect. D and Q Trains were parked along Tracks A3 and A4. Q Trains were running local between Sheepshead Bay and Kings Highway and were making battery runs from Kings Highway and Prospect Park. It was no good either because the Q was stuck behind the D Train making stops in front.
Stillwell yard was flooded out over most of the tracks. This yard always as water between the tracks when it rains. Sometimes you can't even walk around the train during Put-in pre-trip. I guest with 3in. of rain the water was over the tracks.
Robert
Tonight, around 7:00, I took the D Train toward Coney Island, and I saw something unusual. On the express tracks between Kings Highway and Brighton Beach, there were several out-of-service D and Q Trains laid up. At one point, right near Brighton Beach, there were two D Trains practically touching each other. Does anyone know what all those trains were doing there?
Also, the D Train that I was on stopped short just as it was entering Brighton Beach. There wasn't even a signal in front of it, although it had just passed a signal, so I wonder if it hadn't been tripped. The conductor, after some time, said that they were "being held" and "should be moving shortly." Does anyone know what happened there?
- Lyle Goldman
Perhaps Stillwell yard was flooded.
That and/or switch problems into/from the yard. I was there at 6:30 (kings hwy) and they were just starting to spot them. Booth had "No Manhattan Express Service" Posted.
This am, a Q went OOS (Out of Service) and was relayed off of the Manhttan bound express back to the CI Yard. My Q ran express on the local. We were on the D's markers so the T/O held my Q outside the local stations even with permisive signals. He did want to get stuck halfway in/out of the local station with pax pounding on the doors.
Keep in mind this is from someone who hates having the G on his line and waits in joyful hope for the 450' trains to disappear and be replaced by more 600'ers. This is the best I could think of to fulfill the car requirements.
1. G trains cut to 4 cars still go to Continental weekdays. Reduce headway to 5 TPH (every 12 minutes). If they complain, cut it to Court Sq and still give them only 4 cars, but up them back to 6 TPH (every 10 minutes).
2. B trains run 480' trains. They will be less useful than the C after the swap and don't deserve full length trains. Plus they are only crowded with pax going to/from stops north of 145st.
3. Grand st S: 2 car R-46 freed up from G. No sense wasting precious 4 car sets of R-68s on this. 2 T/Os though, and don't dump / recharge train. Simply run it back and forth constantly, like using a bucket to empty a bathtub.
4. Ms cut back to 9th ave, and alternating trains run 6 cars (420').
5. All excess footage created by these cuts be transferred to Jamaica in form of R-32s (since every B division yard outside eastern div has them). For the eastern div cuts, send the R-40Ms freed to the L, slants freed by that to CI yard, R-32s freed by that to Jamaica.
This plan kinda spits in the face of Grand st riders, by cutting back the M and putting in a dinky shuttle, but shift the blame toward G riders and you'll soon have the two major groups of complainers annoying each other.
[Simply run it back and forth constantly, like using a bucket to empty a bathtub. ]
..or like a shuttle :-)
Arti
"M" trains were turned once before at 9th Avenue, this was discontinued with the budget cuts of 1996. "M" only runs to Bay Parkway rush hours.
>>1. G trains cut to 4 cars still go to Continental weekdays. Reduce headway to 5 TPH (every 12 minutes). If they complain, cut it to Court Sq and still give them only 4 cars, but up them back to 6 TPH (every 10 minutes).<<
Here's an idea:
Simply terminate the G at queens Pl. instead of Ct. Square. This shuts up all the whiners.
>>4. Ms cut back to 9th ave, and alternating trains run 6 cars (420').<<
This defeats the purpose of running the M down to west End. If Your going to do that, You should just cut the M to chambers, and run those old diamond R services from 95th to Chambers, peak direction. You'll get more cars that way.
>>(since every B division yard outside eastern div has them).<<
Concourse no longer has R-32's. This was the purpose of swapping the B/C north terminals.
"Simply terminate the G at queens Pl. instead of Ct. Square. This shuts up all the whiners."
That might do the trick, at least until the TA builds up rolling stock again (this will take a while) and decides to increase train frequency through the 53rd St tunnel to the point where the G cutback question arises again.
>>That might do the trick, at least until the TA builds up rolling stock again (this will take a while) and decides to increase train frequency through the 53rd St tunnel to the point where the G cutback question arises again.<<
I don't see how that will stop the G. MAYBE during rush hours. But, remeber, the G used to terminate there when R,E and F lines were running through. It's simple on how to work this:
1. G train stops at court Sq. The Tower checks to see if an R train is currently approaching Queens Pl. If not, the G proceeds to Queens Pl station. If an R is approaching, The G is held at Ct. Square until the R reaches Queens Plaza. It then runs right up behind the R train, and waits for it to load/unload it's passengers. Then, it pulls in after the R.
2. The G train discharges passengers. If an E or V is waiting on the Exp. track, It goes ahead. If the E or V is still pulling in, then you send the G onto the lay-up while the E or V picks up/drops off passengers. Remeber, G trains will be 4 car R-68's. (this assumes that the V comes into Queens Pl. on the express track, and crosses to local after the station.)
3. When the G is on the lay-up, it is clear of all other lines. Thus, it can wait until all tracks are clear. Then, it switches to the local. It picks up passengers and heads for ct. Sq. All this time, there has been minimal delay on other lines, especially since the G is 4 cars long and it will take no more than 15-20 second to cross from the local track to the layup and vice-versa.
Theoretically your plan would work. But keep in mind that to change line-ups constantly requires a lot of fancy handwork in the tower. This could only comfortably be done all times on weekends and at night. Weekdays, between 10 AM and 4 PM and after 7 PM are the only opportune times to do this, though. But service to 23/Ely will be most frequent then anyway, at least no one would complain about having to wait for the connection.
Plus, you have to clean the train someplace. Not at Smith-9, it's an el station with a relay (and I don't think there are facilities for the cleaners). Not at Queens Plaza, traffic tieups. They currently do it at 71st, but not even that well (thus why G is among the dirtiest trains in the system). Court Sq is a good place to clean a train, island platform and reverse in station.
>>Weekdays, between 10 AM and 4 PM and after 7 PM are the only opportune times to do this, though. But service to 23/Ely will be most frequent then anyway, at least no one would complain about having to wait for the connection.<<
Not really. This could be done during rush hours by people in the towers. And, it's now the 23rd/ely frequency that matters, it's the walking tunnel.
>>Plus, you have to clean the train someplace. Not at Smith-9, it's an el station with a relay (and I don't think there are facilities for the cleaners). Not at Queens Plaza, traffic tieups. They currently do it at 71st, but not even that well (thus why G is among the dirtiest trains in the system). Court Sq is a good place to clean a train, island platform and reverse in station.<<
You could clean a train at Queens Plaza. The porter gets on while the train relays and cleans the whole car.
If this isn't feasible, run the G to Church, where you have plenty of time to clean the train.
It really isn't as simple as you say. It takes more than 15-20 seconds. Crews have to e relieved, trains have to be recharged. Switches & signals have to be put against the trains on the other tracks to hold them back and then let them go when the operation is over with. I don't know how old you were when the GG used to turn at Queens Plaza nights and weekends, but it was an operational disaster. It will never work during the day & rush hour schedules. Speculate all you want, but the reality is that the G will never terminate at Queens Plaza.
I cansee why you couldn't turn trains at QP when headways are tight; but, if the people working the tower can't handle turning a train in 10 minutes, they should be given brooms and assigned to duties more suited to their limited abilities.
G arrives at Queens Plaza. Discharge passengers. Some guy sleeping is giving the crew a hard time about getting off, R behind it is delayed. Ready to relay, has towait for the train on the Queens bound express track to leave. R delayed further. It is going 10 MPH because it is a V crossing to the local. G leaves, has to go 10 MPH over switches. Coming out, E train has to wait between 36 ST and Queens Plaza for the G. The F behind it can't cross to 63rd St. because the E is over the switch. G ready to leave. Can't maybe because the V across the platform has to cross in front of the G 10MPH. Or maybe it's an R, so the G still waits and so does the E behind the G. The F moved out. so the next E is behind its' leader since they run every 5 minutes in the rush. The railroad is gone. How would the floors be mopped on the G BTW? Carry buckets of water up and down stairs? Trust me, it is operationally impossible. Case closed.
...the reality is that the G will never terminate at Queens Plaza....it is operationally impossible. Case closed.
The way to terminate the G at Queens Plaza is to run it a single track line between Court Sq and Queens Plaza. The favored operation would be to use the Queens bound track exclusively so as not to interfere, in case expresses were diverted to the local track. This eliminates the need to flush the train of patrons at Queens Plaza and any interference with the express tracks.
I would assume that the round trip time from Court Sq under this scenerio should be much less than 7 minutes. It could be reduced to less than 5 minutes by switching operators at Queens Plaza and eliminating the time for the 300' walk to change ends from being charged to the QP dwell time.
This permits the TA to increase the service levels on the G, when cars become available.
"The way to terminate the G at Queens Plaza is to run it a single track line between Court Sq and Queens Plaza. The favored operation would be to use the Queens bound track exclusively so as not to interfere, in case expresses were diverted to the local track. This eliminates the need to flush the train of patrons at Queens Plaza and any interference with the express track"
That's a nice idea, a less expensive alternative to my suggestion much earlier to build a new lower level Queens Plaza terminal station (2 tracks) for the G. I think (and at least one other have posted here as well)the TA would not have done that to coincide with the Connector because they wouldn't have wanted G-riders and others jumping up and down interfering with the project. But they could do it now (my idea or yours) assuming it could be placed into the Capital Plan.
The reason the TA in truncating the G is because there is a shortage of rolling stock. There is no shortage of track capacity. Had the TA done as you and others suggested and built a terminal for the G at QP, they would have spent around $100 million. The could also have spent that same $100 million on 60 additional cars and avoided the car shortage and the necessity for such a terminal.
The cost of a "token" is the only captital cost associated for converting the stretch between Court Sq and QP into single track operation and well as some rope to tie down some trip levers. I'm sure the TA can spend $20 million or so obtaining such equipment. Might I suggest that the token be a replica of Sen. Proxmire's "Golden Fleece" award.
"The reason the TA in truncating the G is because there is a shortage of rolling stock."
Correct
"There is no shortage of track capacity. Had the TA done as you and others suggested and built a terminal for the G at QP, they would have spent around $100 million. The could also have spent that same $100 million on 60 additional cars and avoided the car shortage and the necessity for such a terminal"
Only if the current 21 TPH is set in stone. With sufficient additional rolling stock, one can easily increase the frequency of trains to Manhattan, to the point where a G could no longer operate to Queens Plaza - and that's when the MTA would need the additional $100 million terminal. But now we return to a typical Baumism - a failure or refusal to anticipate future needs and plan accordingly. Having addressed this before, I don't think we need to waste space on it here...
But now we return to a typical Baumism - a failure or refusal to anticipate future needs and plan accordingly.
The capacity of the tracks with their current signal system is 40 tph. This provides for a 50% growth on the local service into Manhattan and a 100% growth of G service.
Queens recently underwent an extraordinary population growth of 14% during the last 10 years. If this growth were translated into increased subway demand on a one-to-one basis and if it continued at the same high rate, then the existing tracks will reach capacity around 2030. I think that there are more pressing needs at this time for that $100 million.
I would suggest that the problem be re-examined in 2020, when the demand should have increased by 30%. That will still leave 10 years to address the problem.
Ah, the current signal system. New signals put in at various points have slowed, not speeded up, the railroad. All those new signals going in at Queens Plaza, particularly those near 10 car markers, makes me believe the railroad will be slowed down further.
New signals put in at various points have slowed, not speeded up, the railroad.
There's a difference between slow and frequent service. The key to frequent service is uniformity - slow or fast.
"The capacity of the tracks with their current signal system is 40 tph. This provides for a 50% growth on the local service into Manhattan and a 100% growth of G service."
All of which would go to serve current demand, because, (another Baumism) you are projecting a need that has already happened. What you need to learn to do is anticipate needs which already in the future (same problem you have with fixating on 1957 subway maps).
"Queens recently underwent an extraordinary population growth of 14% during the last 10 years. If this growth were translated into increased subway demand on a one-to-one basis and if it continued at the same high rate, then the existing tracks will reach capacity around 2030. I think that there are more pressing needs at this time for that $100 million."
The demand for service has lagged behind. We are already at the point of additional service need. By 2030, with current growth, a Queens Blvd. bypass service would be approaching capacity...
[The demand for service has lagged behind. We are already at the point of additional service need. By 2030, with current growth, a Queens Blvd. bypass service would be approaching capacity... ]
That all assumes that in year 2030 people need to commute, or that anyone even lives in NYC. :-) But seriously the current trend is that the employment is shifting away from 9 to 5 factory workers.....
Arti
That all assumes that in year 2030 people need to commute, or that anyone even lives in NYC. :-) But seriously the current trend is that the employment is shifting away from 9 to 5 factory workers....."
That trend appeared in the late 1980's. The MTA has acknowledged that much ridership growth has occurred off-peak (see recent Daily News articles). However, don't expect that to alleviate crushloads on QB. If you built two more express tracks from Manhattan to central or eastern Queens you'd fill up trains in short order, "flex time" or no...
I would hope NY is still around in 2030. And Philly and Washington too. Everyone knows that everything west of the Mississippi and South of the Mason-Dixon Line is a cultural wasteland - so somebody has to hold the fort... :0)
What you need to learn to do is anticipate needs which already in the future (same problem you have with fixating on 1957 subway maps).
Current service levels are below those of 1957 - by a significant amount. Much of the current overcrowding would be eliminated, if they simply returned to those service levels. The 1957 level was 34 tph on the express (660 foot long trains) and 15 tph on the local plus the GG. This still leaves a cushion for future growth.
The demand for service has lagged behind.
Where is your data to back up this assertion? Today's Times indicated the reverse on a system wide basis. N.B. A 14% growth rate over a decade is equivalent to a 1.3% compounded annual rate. I have not seen published data for the QB and Queens-Manhattan corridors for quite some time. I think a cold examination of more current data is in order.
We are already at the point of additional service need.
Yes, but a sufficient amount of additional service can be provided by additional rolling stock, additional tracks are not required.
By 2030, with current growth, a Queens Blvd. bypass service would be approaching capacity...
Growth takes time. You will need buildings to house people. You will not see much more growth under the current zoning laws because there is almost no vacant land left. Zoning law changes take lots of time. This is not the 1946-1962 period. There is no GI bill, no 4% FHA loan, not much vacant land and contraception is legal. You can't drain Jamaica Bay; it's a wildlife refuge.
There is some question as to whether the 14% growth of the last decade represents real growth or better counting. If it is the former, continued growth at that rate would not be anticipated.
"Current service levels are below those of 1957 - by a significant amount. Much of the current overcrowding would be eliminated, if they simply returned to those service levels."
Yes, including adding trackage in the right places.
"The demand for service has lagged behind.
Where is your data to back up this assertion? Today's Times indicated the reverse on a system wide basis. N.B. A 14% growth rate over a decade is equivalent to a 1.3% compounded annual rate. I have not seen published data for the QB and Queens-Manhattan corridors for quite some time. I think a cold examination of more current data is in order."
Ouch, I misspoke! I meant to say demand is surging ahead of service levels. Thank you for correcting me.
"Yes, but a sufficient amount of additional service can be provided by additional rolling stock, additional tracks are not required."
Assertions without evidence are worthless (this is why the MTA would have a problem hiring you). In fact, the MTA has ample proof that the opposite is true. Rolling stock must be added, but so must trackage.
"Growth takes time. You will need buildings to house people. You will not see much more growth under the current zoning laws because there is almost no vacant land left. Zoning law changes take lots of time."
Yes and no. If we need to increase density it will happen...
Ouch, I misspoke! I meant to say demand is surging ahead of service levels. Thank you for correcting me.
Where is your published data that is specific to the QB line.
Take a close look at the population change by census tract maps that were published in the March 16th issue of the Times. The areas experiencing the largest percentage growth were not clustered along the QB transit corridor. They were in the Hispanic and Black areas - look at the map on page B7. This makes me wonder, if the census figures are a good statistical predictor of transit demand because the "growth" appears to be a result of better counting.
BTW the actual Queens growth rate for the decade was 11% not the 14% that I had stated. This reduces the compound annual growth rate to 1.03%. It also extends the year at which additional tracks will be required to 2038.
Yes and no. If we need to increase density it will happen...
There is very little vacant land left. Most rental apartments have been co-op'd. The share holders can't be removed. There are small housing units that are owner occupied. They are expensive to move. The only option is converting factory/commercial zoning to residential. Most of that property is in LIC and along Newtown Creek. It's not along the QB corridor.
[terminal. But now we return to a typical Baumism ]
Correct word would be Baumanism.
Arti
Yes, thank you.
That would work except for the fact the Queens bound R uses that track also. It is not as simple as going "in & out" with the G's. If an arival is late, with no layover time, it is late going toward Brooklyn. Also, lots of passenger confusion as the public won't know which way the train is going. They don't read signs and will hold doors. During times of headway adjustment in the evening, hard to hold them at the plaza becasue of the R trains. No time to sweep and mop the floors. Sometimes, a reporting crew members job is not covered by the crew office in error or an extra board guy who has to travel from another location didn't arrive yet and the next guy is off the property eating lunch. Here the train is sitting there tieing up the railroad. Terminating the G to Queens Plaza under the current set up would create lots of problems. Stand at the Plaza for about an hour during the rush and you'll see that the trains have to get thru in a hurry, no time to turn around. But no matter what I say, I guess I will be reBUFFed.
You'll have to excuse Steve; he and the real world don't get along too well. But he can play safely on Subtalk, without getting himself or others into real trouble.
I actually mistakenly gave him credit for suggesting that an additional single track be provided the G to QP in his new idea. I was wrong, as evidenced by his post.
What if none of that (layover time, mopping, crew related stuff) is done at the Plaza? In and out, and court sq has all the duties of the terminal. The next crew boards at court sq northbound. If something screws up and there is no crew, hold the G there until it gets sorted out. At court sq downtown, do the layover time thing and car cleaning.
Now the public has to wait for the train at Queens Plaza AND Court Sq. And it is not too productive to have a drop back crew at the plaza for one station and drop back again at Court Sq. If you want the same crew to change ends at the plaza, that wastes time as the t/o is delayed answering question after question in addition to walking the platform.
Yes, people would have to wait. Then, they'd start to figure "might as well go to court sq and walk." Then, the TA proposes again the cutback. Who will complain?
And it is not too productive to have a drop back crew at the plaza for one station and drop back again at Court Sq. If you want the same crew to change ends at the plaza, that wastes time as the t/o is delayed answering question after question in addition to walking the platform.
The G will be OPTO, so we're talking about 1 motorman.
For morning rush hour: next motorman enters rear of train at Court Sq; train heads to QP without delay; changes direction at QP - no motorman movement; train enters Court Sq for schedule adjustment; old motorman leaves train. Two stations and 4 minutes have been added to the run for the motorman.
For evening rush hour: train arrives at Court Sq; motorman leaves train; schedule adjustment at Court Sq; next motorman enters rear of train; special motorman enters front of train; train proceeds to QP; train changes direction at QP; train enters Court Sq; special motorman leaves; train proceeds to Van Alst Ave. Special motorman is in position for next train to QP.
Now the public has to wait for the train at Queens Plaza AND Court Sq.
This is geared to service the Greenpoint residents. They will not have any additional wait. Only 1 extra motorman is required.
You have to figure, which is worth while, running the G to Queens Plz and going through all that trouble, or sending it to Continental smudged between two other locals. I support the latter.
If an arival is late, with no layover time, it is late going toward Brooklyn.
There are other techniques for adhering to a schedule besides long layovers. These techniques would permit a fast in/out at Queens Plaza.
Also, lots of passenger confusion as the public won't know which
way the train is going.
First off, confusion would be reduced with experience. At Queens Plaza the G would be going in only 1 direction - to Brooklyn. There would be no more confusion than having two different services on the same track going to different places, e.g. the E and F at 5th Ave.
They don't read signs and will hold doors.
I'm sure there will be sufficient signs and announcements. So long as these reflect the actual state of affairs they will be followed.
No time to sweep and mop the floors.
They s..s..s..sweeep and mop the floors??????? :-)
You could have fooled me. :-)
Stand at the Plaza for about an hour during the rush and you'll see that the trains have to get thru in a hurry, no time to turn around.
This is a temporary expedient until they get enough cars to run to 71st. During this period the R will be reduced to 10 tph from its present 12 tph. I think that even the TA should be able to turn a train around in 5 or 6 minutes.
But no matter what I say, I guess I will be reBUFFed.
It's that old TA can't do attitude. :-)
But your schedule has them going in and out of the plaza quickly in the first place........I get asked the same questions day in and day out at the same stations.........people don't read signs and listen to announcements, they want personal answers.........yes, they sweep and mop, passengers are pigs........Ok let them try your scheme, and see that it won't work! You can't have 3 services turning at Continental.
I get asked the same questions day in and day out at the same stations
That definitely suggests that some communication is lacking. If they were different questions or stations, then that would suggest an insoluble problem. You should keep track of which questions are asked where. This should tell somebody what signs should be where.
people don't read signs and listen to announcements, they want personal answers.
You'll need better justification for job security, when they start to automate train operations. :-)
Ok let them try your scheme,
I guess I wore you down. :-)
...and see that it won't work!
I'm sure the TA is capable of throwing in some wrinkle to bias any results. :-)
You can't have 3 services turning at Continental.
The track configuration will permit turning 40 tph. The TA managed to turn 36 tph at Times Sq on the 7 with a lot less real estate.
The QB line is rare. It's got loads of terminal facilities. They can turn around 40 tph at 71st; 40 tph at Jamaica Center and 80 tph at 179th. That's twice the capacity that they need.
"The QB line is rare. It's got loads of terminal facilities. They can turn around 40 tph at 71st; 40 tph at Jamaica Center and 80 tph at 179th. That's twice the capacity that they need."
Then a signal goes, uh oh.
>>G arrives at Queens Plaza. Discharge passengers. Some guy sleeping is giving the crew a hard time about getting off, R behind it is delayed. Ready to relay, has towait for the train on the Queens bound express track to leave. R delayed further. It is going 10 MPH because it is a V crossing to the local. G leaves, has to go 10 MPH over switches. Coming out, E train has to wait between 36 ST and Queens Plaza for the G. The F behind it can't cross to 63rd St. because the E is over the switch. G ready to leave. Can't maybe because the V across the platform has to cross in front of the G 10MPH. Or maybe it's an R, so the G still waits and so does the E behind the G. The F moved out. so the next E is behind its' leader since they run every 5 minutes in the rush. The railroad is gone. How would the floors be mopped on the G BTW? Carry buckets of water up and down stairs? Trust me, it is operationally impossible. Case closed.<<
First off, you let the R go AHEAD of the G.
Second. True. The V crossing over is going to take time to cross. But, a G train can easily cross in front of it in a quick amount of time. A 300' train can do the crossing in 15 secs.
Southbound:
Let the E go AHEAD of the G. Then that F isn't trapped. G crosses to local track. If a V wants to get to the local track, you let the G go first. It will clear the block waaayyy before the V will.
A 300' train can do the crossing in 15 secs.
Allowing 50' on either side of the switch, that's a total of 400 feet in 15 seconds or 26.7 ft/sec. This is equivalent to 18.1 mph. That's a little too fast for the NYCT switches. At 10 mph the crossing will take 27.2 seconds, round it up to 30 seconds just to be safe.
"All this time, there has been minimal delay on other lines, especially since the G is 4 cars long and it will take no more than 15-20 second to cross from the local track to the layup and vice-versa."
That sounds modest. 45 to a minute sounds more accurate.
N Bwy
>2 T/Os though, and don't dump / recharge train. Simply run it back and forth constantly, like using a bucket to empty a bathtub.
Actually, to change ends, 1 T/O would still have to dump and the other recharge, unless you had 1 T/O, who would simply throw the reverser and back up one whole station, but this is way out of the picture. Reversing is only used for cutting cars, and then only 1 foot!
Actually, it only takes about 18 seconds to charge a train, so with 2 T/O's, it wouldn't take that much longer to be in and out than it would to make a regular station stop.
"B trains run 480' trains. They will be less useful than the C after the swap and don't deserve full length trains. Plus they are only crowded with pax going to/from stops north of 145st."
More pressure on the C, no? If you change the B to 8 60-footers which Concourse doesn't have anyway, the C has to be upped to 10, because no way are both the B and C going to be 8 cars long. The C is crowded enough.
"More pressure on the C, no? If you change the B to 8 60-footers which Concourse doesn't have anyway, the C has to be upped to 10, because no way are both the B and C going to be 8 cars long. The C is crowded enough."
The C use to be very crowded until they switch terminals. Now it's one of the most unpopular lines among passengers.
The B is very crowded. And that's why often you see more B's than even D's during rush hours. So I wouldn't cut the B to 8 cars. That will be suicide.
If cars are going to be cut, it should be the C line.
N Bwy
"The C use to be very crowded until they switch terminals. Now it's one of the most unpopular lines among passengers."
Actually, chances of getting a seat on the C anywhere between 42nd and Chambers are practically impossible. I've taken it twice at around 3PM weekdays from Port Authority, both times it took me to 14th to get to the railfan window and I tried to get to the door from the window and missed my stop at Jay b/c of the crowding and ended up doubling back at Hoyt. But the second time I started manuevering at High St and got off on time. Today too, on Saturday, no seat. The C needs 10 cars no matter what the B has. Everybody going from Manhattan to Eastern Brooklyn local stops considers it a precious line. You should see the crowd that jumps on between Chambers and Broadway-Nassau during rush hours, and you should see how it is anywhere in lower Manhattan. The conductor on Saturday had to open and close the door three times at every stop to get everybody in. No, with a shorter B, as well as the loss of direct CPW-Brighton service will put pressure on the C, as except for that, S.E. Brooklyn loads that don't like the Canarsie line rest on Brighton.
Have you ever been to the middle of a C train? Much less crowded than the first or last cars.
The E at 3 PM is pretty crowded until Roosevelt (eastbound). Westbound all seats in the first four cars are gone at Roosevelt, and only resurface briefly at Lex / 53rd. I can't get a seat, so they should make it 12 cars. So what if after Union TPK there are less than 12 people on the train, I WANT A SEAT IN THE FIRST CAR! And adding two more is going to do it!
You took the words right out of my mouth. People crowd into the first car and assume the rest of the train is like that. A tremendous problem on the WTC bound E trains during the PM rush, and the last car is a problem in the PM rush from WTC to 34th.
I think I read on Subtalk that the $1 trip quickcards will be honored for 30-60 days after the hike. If that is true everyone should pick up a quickcard before the hike at 3AM 3/25.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Per the Star Ledger- Existing PATH Quickcards will be gonroed for their original value until they expirew-- ino other words, you could buy a 40 ride card at 12 mindight on 3/25/01 and use it until 9/01 ay $1 per ride and get forty rides.
Per the Star Ledger- Existing PATH Quickcards will be honored for their original value until they expirew-- ino other words, you could buy a 40 ride card at 12 mindight on 3/25/01 and use it until 9/01 ay $1 per ride and get forty rides.
And didn’t they just! You couldn’t move in the WTC lower level on Friday evening because of the lines of people waiting to buy their 40-trips (I wonder how much extra the PA made?)
Two seconds’ thought would have told them that they probably could have bought their 40-trips back at their home stations with no lines. When I got back to New Brunswick, none of the NJT machines were busy at all.
They had just seen the fare raised sign, asked around and realized a Quickard would be good for 6 months, and figured they'd better buy it there before they forget.
My apoligies to Mr. Pirmann, but just for information, here are some message boards that may be of interest to some.
Railroad.net New York Railfan Forum (Entire State)
New York Area Railroads Board Be the first to post on this new forum!
Zdeno.com's message board
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
No apologies necessary. There's plenty of room here for posts about other sites which are on topic among all the other posts.... :-/
Now if only someone else would create a message board for all this political and racism, etc. crap.
Maybe the fact that one doesn't exist should be a hint that no webmaster wants to waste their resources and time hosting such a thing.
After this latest OT tangent on racism (which I managed to jump into), I had an idea. Why not just create a separate board where people can transfer and finish out their OT debates. Back when people used to go off on Labor tangents, someone suggested "Labor Talk", and then there were the sports tagents and others. You could have a board for all of them, and call it "TangentTalk". Or if you feel that is too much money and trouble, then anyone here with extra webspace could do it. Either case, when the thread goes off topic, the next reponse would contain a link to the new board, ( ‹a href="[URL]"› Continue here‹/a›*)and continue it there.
*Replace ASCII brackets with < and >
Cough:Off Subtalk:Cough
nelsap (new-england-lost-ski-area-program)
What if anything does that have to do with pork's post?
This A.M. 05:30. I'm sitting on the lonely park type bench at Aquduct/N. Conduit Ave.
On the opposite side, south bound, F1 , an "A" to Far Rock pulls to a halt. I scan the car numbers, as all good fans do, checking for anomalies. BINGO!
R/44s 5202,5203 is lashed to 5352,5353. the second set was a fullstraight set.
avid
Phoenix Arizona 03/22/01
Route of first 22 miles of light rail line has been finalised.
Starting In N Central Phoenix At 19 Avenue & Bethany Home Road, South On 19 Avenue, East On Camelback Road, South On Central Avenue/1 Avenue, East On Washington Street/Jefferson Street, South And Se On Union Pacific RR ROW, South On Mcallister Drive, East On Apache Blvd/Main Street To Main Street & Longmore Mesa Arizona.
Stations/Stops will be placed Approx 1/2 Mile Apart Except In Downtown Phoenix, Downtown Tempe & Arizona State University.
Construction may begin In 2002-2003 With a opening date in 2006.
More Info Available at: www.valleyconnections.com
Good for them!
I live in Tucson (former New Yorker, maybe a future New Yorker) and I find it ironic that the local news doesn't provide these updates, but that I can count on someone who posts on this board for news of something happening only 120 miles away! BTW, our county planning association recently presented its five-year transportation improvement plan, and it was sorely lacking in anything rail-related.
Besides cactus, a big ditch, and my grandchildren, what does Arizona have anyway? Certainly not enough people to support a light rail line :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
THEY JUST HAD A RIOT THERE !! becaquse thier ncaa college team lost the final four poor little babies !!
& right along the trolley route !! he he he he ... turning over cars trucks setting fire in cars & vans & motorhomes
& all because ARIZONA lost to duke in the finals GEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!! LOL.........!!
TUSCON ?? correction !!
[what does Arizona have anyway? Certainly not enough people to support a light rail line]
3,000,000+ people, or #14 or so metro area. There is more than one city in America. Get west of the Hudson once in a while!
what does Arizona have anyway? Certainly not enough people to support a light rail line
3,000,000+ people, or #14 or so metro area.
I've never been there, but from what I understand Phoenix has a low population density, having developed in the auto age. Low density might make it difficult for transit to be viable even with a large population.
[Low density might make it difficult for transit to be viable even with a large population.]
No matter the density, people still need to get around; to education, to jobs, to health care. 1/3rd of the country can't drive: too old, too young, poor, disabled. Most of them have an alternative, many do not.
Phoenix is also (finally) developing a downtown. New ballpark, convention center, museums, etc. So they will also need it increasingly for the commute market as well. To make it more affordable, they are going with a surface system over subway or elevated. It will be a success.
Get west of the Hudson once in a while!
I just got back from a week in Arizona, including an overnight stay in Phoenix (thanks to Continental's delays - I missed my connection to Kingman). Did you miss the smiley at the end of my sentence?
And, by the way, I'm essentially always west of the Hudson - I divide my time between New Jersey and North Carolina when I'm not in Kingman on Zayda duty.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Aha. So let me understand:
Phoenix is too small for light rail...but Bayonne isn't?
Phoenix is too small for light rail...but Trenton isn't?
Phoenix is too small for light rail...but Elizabeth isn't?
Not at all... I was making the statement tongue-in-cheek.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Glad to hear it. Others on this site mean it with their chauvinistic comments.
In 1985 "Val Trans" Funding Was Defeted By The Voters For Expaned Bus Service And 136 Miles Of Els. In Metro Phoenix. In 2000 Transit 2000 Passed By The Voters For Transit Improvements Including Light Rail.
By 2010 Metro Phoenix will reach a est. Population of 5 million (The first 22 miles of light rail will be operating in 2006)There are smaller metros that either have light rail in place or are planning light rail projects.
The First Line will Serve Central Phoenix, Downtown Phoenix, Phx Sky Harbor Int Airport (Airport Bulding People Mover To Meet Light Rail)Tempe, Arizona State University & Mesa. Lines Are Planned To Serve Glendale (NW Phoenix), North Phoenix (I-17 Corridor), Paradise Valley (NE), Scottsdale (NE) & Chandler (SE).
Before 2000 Transit Buses Only Operated M-F 5Am - 8Pm Some Lines Saturday 6 Am - 6pm, No Sunday Or Holliday Service
Now Buses Run Monday - Saturday 4Am - 10 Pm, Sunday & Holliday 5am To 9pm. All Buses Have A/C Mar - Oct And Heat When Required, If A/C Or Heat Dont work Buses Are Replaced ASAP.
In 1985 "Val Trans" Funding Was Defeted By The Voters For Expaned Bus Service And 136 Miles Of Els. In Metro Phoenix. In 2000 Transit 2000 Passed By The Voters For Transit Improvements Including Light Rail.
By 2010 Metro Phoenix will reach a est. Population of 5 million (The first 22 miles of light rail will be operating in 2006)There are smaller metros that either have light rail in place or are planning light rail projects.
The First Line will Serve Central Phoenix, Downtown Phoenix, Phx Sky Harbor Int Airport (Airport Bulding People Mover To Meet Light Rail)Tempe, Arizona State University & Mesa. Lines Are Planned To Serve Glendale (NW Phoenix), North Phoenix (I-17 Corridor), Paradise Valley (NE), Scottsdale (NE) & Chandler (SE).
Before 2000 Transit Buses Only Operated M-F 5Am - 8Pm Some Lines Saturday 6 Am - 6pm, No Sunday Or Holliday Service
Now Buses Run Monday - Saturday 4Am - 10 Pm, Sunday & Holliday 5am To 9pm. All Buses Have A/C Mar - Oct And Heat When Required, If A/C Or Heat Dont work Buses Are Replaced ASAP.
they say the same thing about the light rail project here in pasadena !! however the phoenix population is growing !!
what do you have to say about that subtalk folks on the east coast ?? ......!
I'd like to know how you guys in the January & February classes are doing. Any war stories to tell?
No war stories, really. Just that we sometimes drive our instructors up the wall not remembering to turn on the Control cutoff switch, or today, stopping too far behind stop signs (track crossings) in the yard.
Well there's two reasons for those things:
1) The C/C switch- There's a lot of things to remember and you're not used to the surroundings yet.
2) Stopping too soon- You're all scared to death.
Don't worry, the instructors will beat these things into ya before long.
1) The C/C switch- There's a lot of things to remember and you're not used to the surroundings yet.
2) Stopping too soon- You're all scared to death.
This is what we were trying to explain to them yesterday. But they still are encouraging us to have it all down packed. Especially when we go to the simulator at 130 Livingston Monday. I'll remeber things better when I adjust to the early schedule and get more rest.
That simulator does not give you a sense of motion and feel which helps you stop. And no matter how fast you go, those timers will clear!
I have been on the road now for two weeks. I think I turned off the C/C about four or five time during this time. Most of the time you just have time to get your handles out and get out of the train before the train has to go back out to the raod. AS for stoping short you guys will learn how to stop the train right on the mark. You will learn to release the brakes if you fell that you are stoppong to short of the mark. As for slow speed stops they are harder in my opions becouse you don't have the moters to help slow you down. I still sometime fell like I am stopping to short in station, so I just let go of the brakes and coast up to the mark. I rather do this then go out of the stop by one or more cars.
Robert
Heh. You've GOT it! You're done with school car ... soon you'll almost be able to do it in your sleep. But that's the trick. You know you're having a crappy day when you've got to bump it a point to bring it to the mark on an uphill. Strange how I still miss those days every now and then, today being one of them. Guess it's time to break out Mechanik for a few minutes. :)
Light stuff! When you get to road on your own, the reality is (I hate using a Rudy term!) that most guys don't turn the control cutout switch off (I am one of the few who do), so you won't have to worry about it! And if you get a train which I previously operated, when you wonder why the train doesn't take power, that is the first thing you check! After a couple of days, it will become second nature to check it. Turn it off on the 60 footers, leave it on in the 75 footers, speaking for the B division. As for stopping short, practice, practice, practice will remedy that.
So far, so good - from my perspective. The best part is when we take light trains on the road and practice (my group spent 3 days this week on the road). There's a lot of good-natured banter between classmates.
No "war" stories, but the most unsettling part for me to date was crossing the Culver El tracks, at the Avenue X station. One must step VERY carefully on the ties/across third rails, etc. And, I even got to stand in between the running rails on the Manhattan-bound tracks while a Coney Island-bound "F" pulled into the station. The structure barely vibrated.
Most of the employees we've come into contact with have been friendly, with a few being very helpful with advice, stories, questions, and so forth. So...after 4 weeks of training...it's all good!
Just started my yard posting. Signal test in two weeks. No real "war stories", just having trouble stopping on the mark (I'm sure it will come). Don't worry about the simulater, it's a piece of trash and has nothing to do with train operation. The people in the yards and the road have been great. I now realize it's management we have to look out for(They lie like rugs!). Any info on signal test would be greatly appreciated. Mid-term was a breeze.
How quickly they learn! Just wait till you're out on the road and are entitled to a late clear. The dispatchers are ordered to put down your arrival time when you pass the office. And then they may deduct more time to make the RR look good! Makes the lines' on time performance look better than what it really is! And you may have to key by signals to get to the proper marker, secure the train, and get off. If you hit the block or run the homeball, they already have you arrived! Your clearing time should be the time you step off that train at the terminal, but you can lose at least 5 minutes a day because of lies. The lost money in your pocket adds up. And don't fall for the crap about the 5 minutes at the end for "radio/sign out time." That is supposed to have no bearing on your clearing time.
I know there are buses. I have heard things about light rail and subway though. What exists? How many lines and what kind of cars and/or LRVs?
Thanks, in advance.
A Station by Station account of Denver's Rail System is in the Works. Steve B has consented to due this for the site and will submit it once it is completed. Please stand by!
[How many lines....?]
There is only one light rail line, officially route #101, which runs from 30th Avenue (a mile or two north of downtown) through downtown along streets, then onto its own right-of-way for several miles south of downtown.
-----
[I know there are buses.]
While you're there, be sure to ride the South Broadway bus, #0 (zero) - maybe it goes nowhere! And during rush hours, the #0-Limited goes nowhere fast! (Actually, the #0 has three branches, one of goes to Littleton and passes near Columbine High School.)
I found this website with a Google search.
A bigger display of the map is here.
For the second time in a month, I got to ride slants both to (6:16 out of JC) and from (16:40 out of Broad St.) work. Both times on the same exact train! What are the odds?
One unusual thing was that the pair numbered 4228/29 was part of the consist. I've never seen any Eastern Division slants with numbers under 4300. Usually these cars are on the Q or N.
It isn't hard. The schedule for the trains and for your work must correspond so that the slant consist is headning to Manhattan when you do and to Queens when you return.
What are the chances you see your first new WMATA Orion V (2219) at Friendship Heights and it pulls up later in the day at Farragut Square and you ride it home WITHOUT PLANNING TO TAKE THE EVEN 30S AT ALL?
There's a website that those of us who use Subtalk may or may not be familiar with. It is www.chicago-l.org., a website devoted to the history of elevated trains in Chicago. It's Site Administrator, Graham Garfield is one of the sharpest people I know. This past January he took me on a tour of the Douglas branch of the Blue line and we rode in an empty motorman's cab in the center of the train. Talk about a thrill! Let me tell you, you've never really ridden an El unless you've had a chance to sit in that cab and stick your head out of the window as you rumble above the rooftops.
Now how is this relevant to Subtalk? Very simply the Chicago system can remind us of what it was like when elevated trains roared through the heart of downtown Manhattan. Going between skyscrapers, the elevated trains let out a peculiar roar that has really been absent from New York since the Third Avenue El was closed in 1955. It seems as though the entire landscape rocks and I frankly have never encountered a similiar sensation in thirty years of riding the Els in New York. Furthermore, the urbanization sparked by the "L" in Chicago was similar to that of Greater New York, particularly Brooklyn and Queens. Graham knows a lot about New York and his insights into how they (New York and Chicago) relate to one another are worth listening to. So check out the Site. The Chicago "L" is pretty awesome.
Eric Dale Smith
Eric: That is an excellent site. Very detailed and thorough; it is very current also.
By the way, does Graham post here? He would probably be most welcome if he did.
-cordially,
turnstiles
I kind of made that suggestion. What I think would be helpful is if he and Dave got together and compared notes. I've met Graham in person and from what I've gathered in my communications with Dave is that these two are some very sharp characters. To paraphrase Train Dude, for me to match wits with either one of them, they'd have to check their brains at the door for it to be a fair fight.
Eric Dale Smith
You mean me Dave?
Yep! As I said earlier, you and Graham are two of the sharpest transit cats I know. As such, I merely suggested a meeting of the minds since you two run the best transit websites in the business.
Eric D. Smith
Well that could happen at our September Chicago field trip. Maybe we can get our two sites to co-brand the field trip :)
Dave:
I think he might be agreeable to that. His e-mail address is
ggarfield@students.uiuc.edu(Graham Garfield). Drop him a line and see how things turn out. He's really a great dude.
Eric Dale Smith
>By the way, does Graham post here? He would probably be most welcome if he did.
I do post here, actually! But only occasionally. Although I love the New York system, I very much still consider myself a "student" of it and usually just watch and read SubTalk from the sidelines. I usually only post on Chicago-related topics. I am a relatively new member of SubTalk as well, so I have only been posting for about a month. But I'm glad to be here!
Graham
http://Chicago-L.org
>>> Going between skyscrapers, the elevated trains let out a peculiar roar that has really been absent from New York since the Third Avenue El was closed in 1955. <<<
That makes a good word picture, but the Third Avenue El never went between skyscrapers. The tall buildings on 3rd Avenue were mostly four to six story walk up tenements, with the skyscrapers to the west. There was a roar underneath the el, but it was similar to the sound under the els in Brooklyn and Queens. The most memorable sounds were the wheels screeching as the trains slowly threaded their way above the narrow streets between Chatham Square and South Ferry.
The picture below at 34th Street looking north, gives you a good idea of the width of 3rd Avenue in midtown Manhattan, and the buildings near the el.
Tom
It is a very nice site.
No currently in-service train class seems to get more bad press on these boards than the R68/68A's. I'm just wondering if they really deserve that "Hippo" nickname".
In all honesty, they aren't my favorite train class. In fact, I consider them the second ugliest currently used NYC subway car (after the R44/46--OK technically that makes the R68 thrid) My complaint with all NYC's 75-footers is that 75 feet is too big to have nothing breaking up the monotonous looks. They look like enourmous breadboxes. But if the R44s and R46s are big grey breadboxes, at least the R68s are big silver breadboxes. I also think the silver interior of the R68 (and R62) is no better or worse than the "mellow" look of the R44/46. In a way it's more cheery, while the 44/46 is comfy but dreary. I do hate the seating arangements in all the 75-footers--it's fun if you're with friends on a weekend, but very cramped on rush hour, especially if you have long legs like me. The 68's also earn a few points just by keeping the rollsigns and not having those (IMHO) awful LCDs.
The prinicpal complaint here seems to be that the 68's are slow. My question, of course, is how could we possibly know that (at least as passengers.) I mean, these days nothing's doing a whole lot of speeding in this system. And most of the accounts I read here are highly unscientific "races" between an R68 and something else on a paralel track, when there are a dozen different variables in place.
Just a few comments. I actually don't think anything on today's subway is so bad.
:-) Andrew
First off, I disagree with your whole R-44/46's are the ugliest, but that's something different.
Second, R-68's aren't really that bad. They're a realiable peice of equipment. But Q7 really hates them because they don't give the 'fun' rides that a R-40s does.
Third. How you figure R-68's look better than R-44/46? Their storm doors look crappy, all sunk in like that. And Whats with this breadbox crap? They're just long, that's all. R-40's are the ugliest, they look like they're trashy. Of course, this is all a matter of opinion.
I didn't like the R40S at first (meaning when I started riding in the 1980's--I wasn't even born yet when they debuted), but I've come to like them now. Whenever I ride the N, I always hope it'll be a slant (I'm usually disapointed.) and I always hope I'll see a slant Q paralel my F on 6th Ave. I apreciate the weirness of them. And I think the look works for them.
And yes, the 75-footers are only longer than 60-footers, but all of them on the NYC subway have monotonous designs. ALl the 60-footers have courugations (is that word) or something to break it up. And the 75-footers are longer [i]and[/i] wider than the IRT R62's, which I think look good--just about the right size for the design.
:-) Andrew
The R-68 is more insulated. It's also quieter.
That's why people think it's slower. And that's also why people think the R-10 is the fastest.
Leave us not get me started here. Here are the facts for what I hope will be the last time. Here are the facts:
The R-68s are the most dependible of all B division car. They have a 12 month moving MDBF that is more than 50% higher than any other car class. Concourse R-68s are running at 229,000 mile MDBF.
Th R-68 is the heaviest B division car. At 93,000 Lbs it's 2 tons heavier than the R-46. Hence it's a little slower on accelleration but as we've proven here many times - it's just as fast in the long run.
Being the heaviest, it's also the smoothest riding car - adding to the misconeption of lack of speed.
It's also the heaviest used of all cars in either the A or B division. Each R-68 averages 6,500 miles per month. The average, system-wide is about 800 miles less.
They currently have the most up to date propulsion system in the NYCT fleet (except for the R-110s & the R-142s.
If they have any drawback it's their interiors. I still feel like I'm riding inside a tuna can. Oh yeah, and the cabs are uncomfortable.
>>>If they have any drawback it's their interiors. I still feel like I'm riding inside a tuna can. Oh yeah, and the cabs are uncomfortable.<<<
And don't forget that YA CAN'T GET THE F***ING THINGS TO STOP!!!!!
As a matter of FACT, I ride the cabs every day. The one thing the train operators agree on is that the R-68s have the best brakes in the B division.
zman179 usually comments on the braking of the R68As not R68. I've spoken to a T/O and they say "Those 2000 series, Man! You can get those things to stop on a dime!" I asked them about the R68As and "they're not as good."
Exactly. We've taken the best features of both cars and during SMS, we made two very significant changes.
First, we changed the propulsion package to the AdTranz E-Cam package. The microprocessor logic give more precise Dynamic Brake rates and much better blending of dynamic and pneumatic braking.
Second, while we retained the NYAB brake package, we replaced the NYAB brake valves with WABCO brake valves (taken from the R-62s during linking). The WABCO brake valve has better pneumatic characteristics but more significantly, the WABCO electric self lapping portion seems to be more precise and dependible than the NYAB equivalent.
Naturally, we are also very careful during inspection & repairs to insure that all brake pressures are within the acceptable tollerances (usually 2 PSI or less).
Why is braking an issue with the Hippos? After all, it doesn't take much to stop from a top speed of 5 mph!
The R68As are actually pretty equal to the 2700 counterparts as far as dynamic and brake cylinder applications. Either the magnet valve flow rates are much lower on the newer WABCO brake packages or there is a choke on the release magnet valves which needs to be removed. The R62 GE cars have this same problem, but not as bad being shorter cars. I noticed on most operating units of current and past, a choke is placed on the release vent holes on the magnet valves, I guess to keep bugs out. That might help speed up the release but not the application rates. It takes considerably longer for the straight air pipes to "lap" with the service brake requested by moving the brake handle to service braking positions. I'm curious if the TA keeps specs on flow rates for these conditions like locomotives do with flow guages.
I should have clarified the fact that it's the 68A's that don't like to stop as Mr.5200 was kind enough to point out. The 68s aren't the best either, but maybe it's due to the fact that I rarely operate that class of equipment, maybe three times a year.
>>The R-68s are the most dependible of all B division car. They have a 12 month moving MDBF that is more than 50% higher than any other car class. Concourse R-68s are running at 229,000 mile MDBF.<<
T dude: How long does it take to run 229,000 miles for an R-68?
>>Th R-68 is the heaviest B division car. At 93,000 Lbs it's 2 tons heavier than the R-46. Hence it's a little slower on accelleration but as we've proven here many times - it's just as fast in the long run.<<
It's acceleration is also worse, because of the gears. But, like you said, it would result in higher top speeds overall ('course on the Subway, there's no way to get that type of speed.)
>>It's also the heaviest used of all cars in either the A or B division. Each R-68 averages 6,500 miles per month. The average, system-wide is about 800 miles less. <<
Funny you said system wide. You didn't compare it to another individual car, such as R-46's or R-32's. Both of these cars have service 24/7, while there are other cars, like R-40's which take rests on weekends and nights, drastcially lowering the system numbers.
>>They currently have the most up to date propulsion system in the NYCT fleet (except for the R-110s & the R-142s.<<
If they didn't then the TA would have some serious explaining to do.
>>If they have any drawback it's their interiors. I still feel like I'm riding inside a tuna can. Oh yeah, and the cabs are uncomfortable.<<
True, but it makes graffiti removal a cinch.
"T dude: How long does it take to run 229,000 miles for an R-68?"
MDBF is figured fleetwise. The Concourse R-68s average 1.6 million miles per month. The 229,000 mile figure is simply the total mileage for the 12 month period divided by the number of delays charged to car equipment failure for the same period. On an individual car basis the average R-68 does 6,500 miles per month. You can do the math.
"Funny you said system wide. You didn't compare it to another individual car, such as R-46's or R-32's. Both of these cars have service 24/7, while there are other cars, like R-40's which take rests on weekends and nights, drastcially lowering the system numbers."
I didn't give specific numbers because I don't have then in front of me. The R-46s run about 6,000 to 6.200 miles per month. The R-32s rus somewhat less. The R-62s are the closest to the R-68s at about 6.300 miles.
Its True, Vandals know, "don't mess with the Shiny Ding Dongs, Permanent-marker-wise just providing some facts.
Non-subfans seem to like the R68, though obviously they don't call it by its car-class designation. My wife told me she prefers to the "newer and nicer" cars on the N to the ones on the R (either line can be used between her job in Astoria and mine near Union Square.) From talking to her (and boring her in the process) I was able to deduct that she meant the R68 over the R46. Well there is a modern-ness about the R68 (and R62).
:-) Andrew
In my opinion what takes away from the moderness of the R-68s and A division 62s is the roll signs. Anyone agree for example if they had good working clear digital displays unlike the 44/46s they'd have a more modern appearence.
Completely disagree. But then I've made my feelings on the LCDs and even LEDs known before--I hate them. Give me a rollsign any day.
:-) Andrew
I like the flexibility that electronic signs give you. You can quickly reprogram them to fit any routing of the day, more so than rollsigns; you can change all signs on a train with one command; you can re-route a train if you have to and the sign can change. But the displays need better symbology (more like the roll-signs), and better contrast so that they are easy to read from a distance.
Full color LCD screens can look just like solid signs (check out the Amtrak or NJT logos that appear next to the times/destinations on the deparures & arrivals board at Penn Sta. They may be too expensive for NYC Transit, though.
Another new emerging technology that will challenge LCD is organic LED sheets. These are paper thin, need no backlight, and are much sharper than LCD. Since they have less layers to them, they are cheaper to make, and may be sold cheaper. Article from Technology Review
The R6xx subway car orders were ordered in order to replace an aging fleet, fast. So they didn't have time to mess around with new stuff like with the current R1xx car orders.
I used to like the digital signs. But they often malfunction, I've seen alot of displays out or dark on the R46's. Plus there's no color.
Roll signs are easier to read and have colors, which perhaps is the only good thing I can think about R68's, the signs are the best.
That heavy weight of the R68 makes it slow on uphills. The Hippos strain like hell on the N coming up to Queensboro plaza from the 60th street tube. Same thing goes for the grade on Manhattan bridge. And being heavier, they are hard to stop so they need more room for braking.
The R-68 is the heaviest B division car. At 93,000 Lbs it's 2 tons heavier than the R-46. Hence it's a little slower on accelleration but as we've proven here many times - it's just as fast in the long run.
The R-68's greatest design fault is inadequate door space for quick loading/unloading. It shares this characteristic with the R44/46. There was at least a half decade's worth of running experience with the TA's 75-foot design, when the R-68 orders went out. This was an oversight with the R44; it was a blunder with the R68.
There is running time and there is running time. Maximum speed does not affect maximum track utilization (service levels). It just means that more trains are required for the same service. However, acceleration, braking rate and dwell time do affect minimum headway. Introducing a design that decreases maximum service levels, is especially poor when that system is operating near its maximum service level.
The second problem with the 75-foot design is that the some how managed to reduce service load capacity. The 60-foot designs had a service load of 145 passengers; the 75-footers rating is 175 passengers. This there is a 600 foot long train of 60-footers carries 50 more passengers or has 3.5% greater passenger capacity.
Passenger load is insignificant in my opinion. The size of people can vary greatly.
Load isn't insignificant, or Jamaica wouldn't keep assigning the R-32s to the E, where crush load is the highest.
The biggest liability of the 75-footers isn't going to come for another 15 years or so, when the oldest cars are in their mid 40s and their relibility starts to decline. Because of their inability to run on the Eastern Division, the cars are going to have to remain on the more heavily-used Southern Division and IND lines, especailly when the R-46s start showing their age. The R-44s could be stuck on the C or the G lines, if they had to, but there are just too many R-46s to hide from the most heavily-used lines, so expect to hear the same type of complaints from A, E, F or R riders you're hearing now from some people about the oldest of the Redbirds on the 2 and 5 lines.
Passenger load is insignificant in my opinion. The size of people can vary greatly.
Service and crush load figures are based on the amount of space that is available to passengers. Variability of individual passenger size does not figure into the computation.
The 60-foot designs had a service load of 145 passengers; the 75-footers rating is
175 passengers.
Which 75' cars are being quoted here? R44/46 "A" cars with
a full-width cab and blind end, "B" cars with two blind ends,
or 68's with a full-width and a corner cab?
Which 75' cars are being quoted here? R44/46 "A" cars with a full-width cab and blind end, "B" cars with two blind ends, or 68's with a full-width and a corner cab?
These are the figures used by various MTA/NYCT planning studies.
I'd assume it would be reasonable to average out any differences due to the differences you mentioned to come up with a single figure. This is the TA; reason suffers sometimes.
I suppose a more rigorous analysis would use the Equation 3-9 in the "Transit Capacity and Quality of Service Manual". It would be interesting to see this applied to the various car models past and present. It would also be intersting to calculate passengers/unit length, to see how efficiently each model uses its available space.
I bring this up because you were wondering how the shift
from 60' to 75' cars brought a decrease in service load
capacity. If that metric is based solely on square feet
per passenger, the slight difference could be explained by
the increased cab space per car of the R68s. It might also
be influenced by the use of transverse seats on the 75' cars.
Just think old-time BMT fans..the R68 is only one ton lighter than the old AB's, although it is 75 ft. vs. 67 1/2 ft for the "steels". I'm curious where the extra weight came from as IIRC the R44 weighed in at 86,000 lbs which makes the R68 7000 lbs heavier.
The R-68 suffered from poor project management from the Westinghouse Amrail consortium. Thus, it could not even deliver what was promised (whether what was promised was adequate or not).
I wonder if the added weight was due to modifications added after the MTA found out it had a lemon on its hands. This is commonly a problem with new automobiles and new aircraft. The car was rescued eventually, and the "A" model by Kawasaki was improved. I wouldn't scrap them anytime soon.
Once again, people are getting far too complicated here. The R-44s were significantly lighter because they lack the same under-car frame configuration that was incorporated on the R-46 & R-68/68A. The frame on the R-44 is prone to cracking - especially in the area of the HVAC units. Then until linking, every R-68 had a converter and a compressor where-as the R-44 and R-46 had them only on the A cars. Finally, while the R-44 &R-46 interiors are made of Marlite, the R-68 is stainless steel. I think those three inems pretty much explain the significant weight differences.
Hmmmmm. R44 frame prone to cracking in the HVAC area? Maybe the R44's, being close to 30 years old, will be disposed of after the R38/40/42? I will not miss them in the slightest when the time comes.
The second problem with the 75-foot design is that the some how managed to reduce service load capacity. The 60-foot designs had a service load of 145 passengers; the 75-footers rating is 175 passengers. This there is a 600 foot long train of 60-footers carries 50 more passengers or has 3.5% greater passenger capacity.
Maybe the longitudial seats in the 75' cars are responsible that 3.5% loss.
Maybe the longitudial seats in the 75' cars are responsible that 3.5% loss.
As I stated in my reply to Mr. Jeff H, these are the figures that are used in TA planning studies. These studies are available on the net. I also included a reference to a more rigorous and systematic method for calulating rail car passenger capacity. I have no idea what applying this equation would yield for various rolling stock. I would hazard a guess that the TA's designers did not apply this equation, when they specified the R142 and R143. :-)
The trains do not have crush loads all the time. I think the biggest factor is the station dwell time: 32 doorways vs. 40 doorways per side.
No, just slow ...
But you are taking it from the prospective of a railfan. As a MOTORMAN (the title when I got promoted and I REFUSE to give it up!), I think they are very uncomfortable to operate along with the R44's. But the TA looks at it from a performance perspective. And the cars perform quite well, thank you.
As an aside, I once read comments written by an Air Force officer saying that he didn't like cockpits which were too comfortable because he didn't want pilots encouraged to nod off. Nothing like a little irritant in your rear end to keep you awake.
Then there's the issue of lumbar support...
You know, I like the R46, but am afraid if I ever pick the F and be guaranteed them all day for long trips, I won't be as alert as I am on the E with R32's most of the day.
Here's a picture of a train made of mixed A&B division cars. This should end all doubts. ;-)
That's a modified Low V used for snow shoveling service. I sincerely beleive that A & B division equipment never operated together in passanger service.
>>That's a modified Low V used for snow shoveling service. I sincerely beleive that A & B division equipment never operated together in passanger service.<<
I know that. it was a joke.
??
There was certainly something strange going on on both SubTalk and BusTalk. When I tried to get on around 11:00 or so, both boards would load the beginnings, but apparently the databases were unavailable/gone/non-responsive as only the header and the welcome back message were present on either board. I exited nycsubway.org, closed Netscape, cleared the cache, and restarted the browser. When I went back to the bookmark I have, the site wouldn't respond (about 11:15 PM). I went to the DOS prompt and pinged the site, no response.
I visited several other rail sites and closed the connection. When I got back on line about 11:50, the site and SubTalk loaded (including what appeared to be the full index, but a nycsubway error page came up on every message link that was clicked. I exited the browser and came back about 12:15 AM. Everything loaded as normal, including the full index.
Comments, or do we chalk this up to a "system burp" :-)
I thought I was the only one who had that problem. Thanks for clearing it up.
E_DOG
My comments were in the post you replied to.
would this do any good?
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Considering the problem has been fixed? I think you could guess that I already figured out what was wrong.
It's finally working properly after getting all kinds of errors.
I had been trying to get messages since 9pm and violla at 12:20am it finally worked! :-)
Slaaam somehow posted at 9:20 I have no idea how he go through
There was a small window of opportunity when it worked. He was the only one to fit into it.
I was riding a northbound Q train when we got holding lights at W4th. The signal ahead went to red, then the line-up for the local track.
We ran express the local breezing by 14th and 23rd as bewildered people on the platform looked on.
After 34th the tunnel smelled of smoke and I noticed what appeared to be a small fire on the N/B express track. 42nd street smelled of smoke. The Q switched to the Queensbridge track (double-yellow) after 47-50.
This was around 2:20pm.
Thanks, Todd, for posting info about the MBTA flood the other day. How will the MBTA be effected by this as far as repair is concerned? I cringed when you said that the Kenmore/Fenway area was hit, since it was only like a year ago that they finished all the signal repairs from the water main break flood a few years back. I DREADED getting off at Kenmore and taking the shuttle bus to Fenway to hop another train...it was so inconvenient. -Nick
Nick,
According to the update on the T's website, all is normal this morning on the Green. Most of the signal problems were from the 1996 floods. The past few day's bus shuttles and flood precautions worked perfectly. They couldn't do this in '96 because the flood gate was rusted open.
The good news, Nick, is the Fenway/Kenmore area wasn't hit. The MBTA put up their flood fence at the Fenway portal as a preventative measure in case the Muddy River overflowed, so that the tunnel would not flood. The Muddy didn't overflow, and the flood fence was removed in time for morning service.
Excellent, Todd....the MBTA got this one right! :-) -Nick
Please be advised that 9552 9553 9542 9543 all now have had their Pelham stickers removed and Corona stickers applied including their purple diamonds. I have some rather discouraging news about 9540 and 9541. It seems as if they may not make it to the 7 line. I am Highly disappointed to hear or to report this However they were seen at 207 street by someone and are on a storage track with shop trucks on them. They are also partialy stripped. If I hear of any more news especialy about this pair I will post it.
oh. i guess the death of the Redbird is starting. its almost like the Gloucesters of the TTC. except they will not comeback as work trains.
Anyone know...
If the PCCs are running on weekends?
When the new LRVs will go into service?
Thanks to all who answer.
No weekend PCCs...
and
No (guesstimate some time in July but even then the subway will be closed on weekends. If connecting tunnel construction for the Elizabeth link starts before the signal and platform projects end, the subway may not be open on weeknds till, like, 2003!)
Sorry...
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Elizabeth link?
What about plans for the old Cedar Street line and the connection to Broad Street Station? What about the airport and new sports center south of Penn?
Just to clarify, your guesstimate for July pertaints to when the PCCs will be replaced with LRVs?
I hopse so...
-Robert A. King
http://members.nbci.com/wobit/
Are the new lrv's in service?
No.
There will be no transition period, just a single weekend change-over.
Go home on a PCC Friday; go to work on an LRV Monday.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Yes, but when will the changeover happen?
Since the Main Line R-36s move from Pelham to Flushing in December, cars 9540/9541 have evidently been missing.
As stated they have are in hard-term storage at 207 Street.
I am hesitatnt to say there ARE retired, but from what I can gather the pair MAY HAVE BEEN damaged in some kind of derailment at 68 Street during 2000. Does anyone remember such an incident, perhaps an approximate date?
The SubTalk archive could come in handy in this instance.
With new cars being delivered and the R-36s heading for NIM anyway, cars which could be repaired may not be, if expected cost is over a given threshold. THis could be the start of the elimination process.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
In the depressionary mid'80's, Norfolk Southern permanently sidelined locomotives that needed as little as headlight bulb replacement.
Hello, again. Does anyone have any info on the cancellation of the "J": Shuttle for the weekend of 3/23-26? Will it be resuming on 3/30?
Call Transit Information. They can handle all your Question about sevice changes. The number is if you forgot it is 718-330-1234, it is open 24/7.
Robert
Or he can save his time and his time by going to http://www.nyct.org/nyct/service/subsrvno.htm
For the last 8-9 years with the North side only of the Bridge open, it should've been like this:
B-Orange-same-some trains 6th Ave local?
D-Orange-same
N-Orange-6th Ave-to 21 St Queensbridge-some trains 6th Ave local?
Q-Yellow-tunnel-to Ditmars Blvd, some trains Broadway Exp? During off-hours Ditmars Blvd to somewhere decent along the Broadway line, possibly relay on the Canal St bridge tracks if they kept them in good shape
New signage isn't an issue for the N. They had to get orange "Q" signs anyway, they could've just made them "N" and left the Q alone.
Question - I've seen the track layouts and I think I understand the layouts of the structures in and around the Chrystie St connection. So theortetically couldn't the deadend tracks that used to go to the south side of the Manhattan bridge (the unused sections extending along the JMZ) be run up into Grand St (aren't there extra trackways on either side of the existing platforms)? That would seem to solve alot of problems in this bridge mess. For that matter why not just build in an crossover on the Manhattan side of the Manny B between the north and south sides (seems an obvious but unsurprising oversight by MTA planning folks). I know its not gonna happen now but is either of these even possible?
There is a significant grade difference between the north and south side's approach tracks. The old Canal st / North side tunnel (still there) can not be used for a south-north crossing (which would have helped our current situation and left the Q on Broadway for the past 10 yrs) because the grade was changed with the building of the connection. I don't know about the tail tracks, though if they were used it would require southbound trains to cross over all Nassau line tracks to get to the through track at Chambers. The whole bridge connection thing was to be tied in with a second ave project, that's why there are trackways behind Grand. If the second ave line had been planned to connect to the Nassau line back in 1967, the connection you refer to may very well have been built before the project sank (or at least partially built and completed for the 80s bridge swap).
Lots of other stupid things were done in the construction of that connector, like no double crossovers at Grand or Canal and no southbound express-local crossover at B'way-Lafayette (which would enable 8th ave trains to use the bridge).
Others have posted that there should be a connection built in Brooklyn connecting the F line to Dekalb ave, but it probably would be too difficult since DeKalb is already a giant maze of tunnels, how would they integrate without disrupting? Though it would be cool, 4 river crossings (count each side of the bridge separate) all converging at DeKalb. (Via Bridge - 6th, Bridge - Broadway, Tunnel - Broadway, Tunnel - Nassau, Tunnel - 6th, Tunnel - 8th).
For those into HO gauge, there is a set of 3 subway cars (appear to be R-15s)for sale. Non-powered and pricey but if anyone is interested, they are item #1124306767. (I have no financial interest in this sale)
The descrition and the photo below do NOT match. The description says the cars are in the blue and sliver paint scheme. The photo below shows R-17 cars in the maroon paint scheme.
In any event, the price so far isn't bad. They usually sell for $129.95 and up for three-car sets of KITS, unpainted. Even so, Images Replicas did an excellent job on producing the kits; I have done three-car sets of R-17's and R-21's. They did some planning when they did the molds for the kits; the only difference between the R-17 and R-21/22 kits is the end door. (They also planned ahead and made the solid rectangular window doors for R-26/28/29/33, as well as the blind ends for the married pairs.)
April 1 (Sunday)
Meet Sea Beach Fred on a re-creation of the Sea Beach including the Manhattan Bridge. We will go down Broadway, walk to Grand St.(including a stop for a roast pork bun), take a D to DeKalb, and change back to the N to Coney Island. Lunch will be at Nathan's. Since Fred has to get to LaGuardia we will also take an F to Smith/9th, change to the G to Court Square, and take the Queens Blvd. line to Roosevelt Ave. This will be an opportunity to see a few of the much discussed topics including the Canal St. bridge station, the Grand St. station (and the distance between the two), the new ball park in Coney Island, the entire route of the shortened G, and the transfer at Court Square. We will meet at track 1 of the shuttle at Times Square. Be sure to have a fun card (or weekly/monthly). E-mail me if you intend to join us.
Gary W,
Exavtly where do we meet and at what time ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Do you realise what kind of things traditionally go on on that day? >:)
(That's a Robert King evil grin smiley face!)
Queens Plaza. This is an F train to 179st. Next stop Roosevelt avenue. APRIL FOOLS! We will be running local as usual this weekend!
Track 1 of the shuttle in Times Square 10AM.
To my friends on this site, and I hope they are in the majority, I am looking forward to seeing you. To those few who have taken a negative view of me, I'd like you meet you, too. For you it would be a unique opportunity to see me up close and personal and see if I am really as big a son-of-a-bitch as you think I am.
Oh, I'd imagine you are. (=
Which end of the track? I don't want to walk up to the wrong group of people congregating along track 1 at 10 AM and say "Hi, I'm really looking forward to railfanning with you today," and have the crap beaten out of me.
Dan
Near the booth.
I'll be the wierd looking older guy wearing my Sea Beach shirt and looking to all the world like some kind of an out of town rube.----that is, if I don't get lost myself.
>>> For you it would be a unique opportunity to see me up close and personal and see if I am really as big a son-of-a-bitch as you think I am. <<<
Oh Fred, you know the real thing never lives up to the advance reputation. :-)
Tom
Fred,
Hopefully there will be signal work on the West End on April 1 and they will be running (B)'s down the Sea Beach via the express track. Won't that make your day !
Bill "Newkirk"
But won't he have to change his tag to "West End GO Fred" if you do that? :-)
Never. Never. When Sea Beach Fred is in town, everyone has to know this is Sea Beach Fred.
Yes it will Bill. Now use your influence and get on it. There is no time to waste.
I expect to see you in New York when you visit if I can.
BMTJeff
This morning I had the ultimate railfan's delight.I rode the Dyre Avenue line down to Bowling Green.Due to work on the 7th avenue line, The Dyre Avenue Line made the loop through to South Ferry(wasnt there more than one South Ferry station at one time?I could of sworn there was,but I havent been through here in over 30 years or so)We went through the Broadway Line South Ferry stop and skipped the stops in the village, and stopped at Chambers Street.We crossed over and ran express back to Dyre Avenue.Its great!!!To see most of the IRT through the Railfan window on a redbird!!I'm going back again later on today its a real treat if you are a redbird fan and a railfan!!!
>We crossed over and ran express back to Dyre Avenue.
...from Chambers to Dyre Ave STRAIGHT?!?!?
2good2B
The train crossed over at Chambers, to the Express track via 7th avenue we went up the westside, through East 180th street up to Dyre Avenue. There some stations closed below Chambers Street.The 3 line ran between Times Square and 148th, the 2 line only ran southbound and the up town 2 ran via Lexington Avenue, the 5 stopped at Bowling Green looped and headed back up 7th Avenue, replacing the northbound 2 service.
Now..if you could only get the stickyness off your keyboard.....lol.....
Yeah I did the same today and it sure was a blast!
I rode from Grand Central to Penn Station on the same train. Kinda funny when you think about it, everyone spending assloads of money to accomplish the same thing...
I took a "schoolbus" #5 (7873 lead car) train from 59th St all the way to Penn Station myself. There were the inevitable confused people at Bowling Green asking if that #5 goes to Brooklyn. Everybody else left the lead car and I was the only one passenger there as it rounded the loop. Got a glimpse of the abandoned inner South Ferry loop station... (at least what I think it is!)
Grand Central to Penn Station costs the same fare as the #5 ride today.... only spending more time on the latter....
I should have been clearer, I meant everyone spending money to build a connection so that one can ride the same train to Penn Station and Grand Central (Access to the Region's Core and whatnot).
be careful when u do that one touch on the wrong rail & u are in R 142 heaven !!!
how old is subtalk anyway
Older than the first post on this board.
The pantograph on my HO AEM-7 barely raises above my double stacked container cars. Which brings up something I hadn't thought of before:
Is there enought clearance on the prototype to run double-stacks under the overhead wire? Is there any need to?
Thanks for responding,
Dave
Sir:
There are no double-stack operations on the NEC.
The only location which may see some double-stacks under wire is a short piece of the CSX Trenton Line (nee SEPTA R3-West Trenton Line) from end of wire at West Trenton to Woodbourne PA.
This was used quite frequently in Conrail days to move Mail and mixed Intermodal trains from the North Jersey yards to Norristown and on west to Pennsylvania. As NS has little traffic up the Trenton Line nowadays it likely isn't used much.
As part of the double-stacking of the ex-PRR main line, SEPTA's wire was raosed on Track 1 (WB) to a height of 21 feet. If you stand near Woodbourne Jct. you can notice the height differential.
There are no orther lines equipped with catenary that have much double-stack potential...at this time.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
This article indicates that commuter rail in Albany and turboliners on the Empire corridor are hostage to larger politics.
Anybody heard subsequent news?
(Full text; internet articles only available free for a week.)
---------------------------------------
Saturday, March 17, 2001
RAIL TAX DISPUTE SLOWS CDTA
Albany Commuter rail plan joins turboliner in need for track work as companies stall until state Legislature acts
ANDREW TILGHMAN Staff writer
With $12.3 million set aside for a project to bring commuter rail service to Saratoga Springs, the Capital District Transportation Authority is struggling to work out a critical deal with the companies that own the tracks on the proposed route.
``That is really just in the beginning planning stages,'' said Anthony Esposito, chairman of the CDTA, which is charged with coordinating the federally funded project.
The rail service plan has been in the works since 1998, when former U.S. Rep. Gerald Solomon, R-Queensbury, secured money for the project. It was designed to determine whether there is enough demand for rail service in the Capital Region to warrant future projects on a larger scale.
Timing has become a key factor in recent months, after U.S. Rep. John Sweeney, R-Halfmoon, publicly criticized the CDTA's handling of the project. He suggested its federal funding would be jeopardized if the commuter link is not in service by summer 2002.
The CDTA wants permission to begin work needed to upgrade the freight lines for the speed and safety requirements needed for passenger service. A deal also would have to fit potential new trains into the rail system's complex schedule.
As spring construction season nears, Esposito said he hoped a deal could be reached by this summer between the CDTA and the tracks' owners, which include Canadian Pacific Rail and CSX Transportation.
A spokesman for CP Rail, Peter Cohen, declined to give a time frame for the negotiations.
Part of the negotiations hinge on a tax break for track owners that the state Legislature will consider this year, said John Casellini, a spokesman for CSX. Since the track owners operate only freight trains, they fear property tax increases if they permit upgrades they don't need.
In response, Gov. George Pataki has proposed a 10-year tax exemption for upgrades on rail tracks. Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, D-Manhattan, has not yet thrown his support behind the tax break.
CSX will not permit any work to its tracks until the Legislature agrees to the tax break, Casellini said. For similar reasons, CSX is withholding permission for upgrades on tracks to New York City that would allow Amtrak's new high-speed turboliner to reach maximum speeds.
In an effort to speed negotiations, the CDTA board voted Wednesday to hire the Saratoga Economic Development Corporation for a $60,000 one-year contract to assist in the planning and negotiations with CP Rail. ``SEDC has already developed a good working relationship with CP Rail,'' Esposito said.
Jack Kelley, senior vice president, with SEDC said the group has been working with the CDTA for several months. ``We basically have been in a position to introduce parties together to make sure that relationships begin and continue to exist,'' he said.
Kelley declined to discuss specifics, saying only that talks so far have been limited to ``strategic discussion.''
The CDTA has not decided whether the commuter train will run a western route through Schenectady or through the eastern part of the Capital Region through Mechanicville.
Sweeney, whose district includes Mechanicville but not Schenectady, asked the CDTA last month to provide him information such as how they plan to spend the money and ridership projections for the proposed line. He is expecting to receive them Monday, said Kevin Madden, a Sweeney spokesman.
``We just want to make sure the project is well-managed,'' he added.
Yep ... glad someone put that up - CSX's stance has hardened even further unless they are declared tax-FREE around here and it has been indicated to our "leaders" that they may completely shut down Amtrak and possibly stop subway car deliveries as well until they get their way.
But here's an argument for all those who favor the privatization of Amtrak ... Gonerail would have NEVER dared pull this kind of nonsense. CSX wants those NEC tracks BAD ... and since they're a fine Florida company, they'll get their way with the Shrub. If they do though, it's bye bye NJ Transit too. They're not nice folks and NS is even worse.
Actually the 'holding company' is in Richmond Va. And John Snow the CEO was one of the supporters of the Newt during the budget wars.-signatory of newspaper ads. These same geniuses who whine about taxes are very aggressive when it comes to gov't money for track improvements they should have done years previously--RF&P single track bottleneck for instance, being paid for by State of Virginia. CSX was the subjecr of a major FRA safety complaint a year or so back (let's get guv'm't off our backs) because the tracks were substandard ALL over the system. Disclosure I am a stockholder--because CSX includes the former Baltimore & Ohio my favorite rail line.
NYCentral here ... but yeah, these boys are truly something else.
So I get on a 7 at Flushing and take it to 74th for the F, which is going through the 63rd street connector. I should've stayed on the 7.
The platform was reasonably crowded at around 12pm and after waiting 5 minutes an R shows up. But I'm waiting for an F. So another 10 minutes goes by and no F train. Another R32 R shows up and I decided to take it instead of waiting for what will be an overcrowded F train.
The R32 R ride was great, except for the confused conductor which kept stating R trains would run through the 63rd street connector. Even at 36th he announced the next stop would be Queensbridge. WRONG! We went onto the local track for Queens Plaza. He then said that Queensbound R trains would be running through the 63rd connector as a Queensbound R train just pulls into the other side. I think the G.O. just has F trains going though 63rd street, but this C/R got it wrong and passengers looked very confused (well at least he got R replaces E!).
The ride through 60th street tube was a blaze as usual. I got off at Canal and grabbed a R142 6 train just for one stop south. The acceleration is pretty good, but the automated announcements remind me of the ones on the LIRR Bi-levels. At least they were working!
I also took a 5 from Brooklyn Bridge to 34th street! Because of a G.O. 5 trains went back uptown after Bowling Green. The T/O changed the roll sign (I had to briefly step away from the window so she could crank the sign).
After Bowling Green we switched to the inner loop track, then to the South Ferry loop track. Man did it feel weird being on a Redbird going past (not stopping) at S.Ferry, Rector, and Cortlandt! There are no redbirds on the 1/9. After Chambers it was a zippy express run to 34th.
Later on I took a lumbering D from 34th to Grand (Chinatown). Well at least it was able to get speed on the dash, but otherwise it was a Hippo of a ride.
Going back from Chinatown I just missed a B (some woman just felt like standing by the Grand st entrance causing a bottleneck. That cost me 12 minutes.
After 10 minutes a packed D comes in. I let this one go by. A B was a few minutes behind. The B was empty. And for some reason the B seems much quicker than D. I think R68A trains (which are used on the B) are faster than their cousins on the D. The train seemed smoother and faster than the Concourse R68. The interior is nicer (plus the sliding door to the cab is futuristic). I actually don't mind the R68A's that much, as they really seem almost as fast as a Q train on 6th ave exp.
Get into 34th street and get an F right across the platform. It was a real speedy ride as the T/O really raced into stations and stopped abruptly, just the kind of style I like.
The 63rd street tunnel was fast too. Those tube flourescent lights look cool going by fast. It was a fast ride, until we got to just before 36th street. This is around 3:50pm and the signal ahead is red.
After a minute an R comes by and stops at 36th. The R leaves but the interlocking signal still does not clear, although the one before us now is yellow we move up. Then another R comes in. I thought to myself, what the hell is going on? There was no announcements but I figured there's trouble somewhere on the local line ahead of us. Now if only they had the express track working we wouldn't be in this mess. I never see track workers on that express track, there's no reason it should be closed. But instead of going express like we SHOULD, we continue to wait for the R to leave 36th. Finally after 15 minutes of waiting for the R to move it finally leaves and we move into 36th. THe rest of the ride seemed normal. I didn't see any activity going on at any of the stations, but I'm sure F's were backed up in the 63rd street tunnel and R's were probably backed up till the 11th street cut.
I get off at 74th and get my trusty 7 train back to Flushing.
It seems every weekend there's a problem on the Queens IND.
I think from now on I'm sticking to the 7 train on weekends, the IND is too dicey!
The F line has always seemed screwed up. I don't know, but I prefer the E when I'm in town. That's assuming of course that I'm not on my favorite line, the J train.
Eric D. Smith
I worked the F today. The tower operator at Queensboro Master Tower was in la-la land today. On both round trips, I had to wait an extended period of time just to get the lineup.
It was VERY screwed up today with no E trains (R's ran to Jam.Ctr.) and all F and R trains running local all the way in Queens. Tomorrow will be just as bad. You've all been warned!
While taking the R Manhattan bound we had to wait for a minute for a line-up at 36th.
I also forgot to mention there was track work on the E/B local track on the 7 between Willets and Flushing.
We switched to normally non-revenue trackage (yard leads) after 111th (under the middle track) and went to the middle track to Main street.
The E/B local track had signals off right before the tunnel, and lots of track workers "tearin it up". Looked like signal work.
I have no love for Tower Operators.
Roosevelt was just as bad! I was at Roosevelt, having gotten off an F which was to run express to 71. We then get an announceemnt over station PA that due to a broken rail at cortlandt, there is a delay in Parsons Bound R Service. I was in uniform and then the "fun" starts. I whip out my scanner and keep the platform under control and suggest alternates. I actually had customers thanking me for my assistance!
PA said next F would be local to 71.I told customers that I did not know beyond 71 since it was another tower but I would guess they'd run local to 179.
I board the next F and more questions on the train- I answert the customer concerns and more compliments. I got to my next (and last) stop on time.
SOLUTION---stop wearing your uniform when off duty
Peace,
ANDEE
As for the confused c/r at the beginning of your post, there is no reason for that, and his t/o should have heard the wrong announcements and corrected him. Better yet, he was supposed to find out at the terminal what was happening.
You mean you could actually STAY ON a (5)
p-a-s-t Bowling Green and into the loop??
Wowe.
YEA, really
peace,
ANDEE
So, you've got your handles (or you're gonna get them soon) and you're ready to pound that good ol' road. The TA has given you everything that you need.........or have they? Here are a couple of things that a T/O or C/R should not be without:
1)Appointment book
Or some other kind of calendar book. You use this to jot down what you did throughout the workday. You should write down the job number (ex. D-213), your intervals, operating motors and whether you jumped ahead or left behind and those intervals as well. This is to protect yourself in the event that the TA decides to get "slick" with you. In my eight year career in transit, they tried to hang me four times for incidents that happened on trains that I wasn't even on! Here's an example of a conversation with a superintendent that happened a couple of days after the incident:
Zman-Hello?
Supt-Yes this is Supt. Blahblahblah. While operating the N train on Wednesday, did you experience anything unusual?
Zman-No sir. Why do you ask?
Supt-Well we received a report of the 1439-N-Astoria hitting a signal in the vicinity of City Hall, and at Stillwell when the RCI inspected the trip cock of the operating motor which was 2812, it had a strike mark and the snow block was missing. And according to the schedule, you were the T/O of that train.
Zman-But Mr. Blah, I'm currently looking at my records and I had jumped ahead on the 1431-N-Astoria and the operating motor was 3572.
Supt-Ok very well. Just write a report (G2) stating that you had jumped ahead on that interval.
Zman-Ok.
So you see what could happen if you don't keep a record of your duties. And this has happened four times! Two each as a C/R and a T/O. The two C/R incidents involved passenger drags. Protect yourself!!!
2)A roll of duct tape
You will experience a situation where it is raining harder inside your cab than it is outside. Or on a really cold day while you're operating a R44/46, the wind will be rushing through the plug door like the door even isn't there. Or on a R40/42 the wind will come rushing through the console directly onto your legs and mid-section. But with some duct tape, you can temporarily patch up these problems until you can write the problems down on the defect sheet. And you can operate in a better degree of comfort. Otherwise under adverse conditions, you could risk getting seriously ill. After all, you could be in that cab with the wind blowing on you for up to 1 hour and 45 minutes.
Any other T/O's wishing to add to this list?
I've seen T/O's often writing train info down in a little calender book when they start their run on the 7 at Times Square, for instance.
Something we assume: keep track of your daily pay. Don't let 'em get away with 5 minutes.
That's true, the TA won't nickle and dime you, they'll penny you too.
I remember as a C/R one time I took one sick day and was supposed to get paid $185.05 1/2. Obviously they can't pay you half a cent so the TA rounded it down to $185.05
Well, I forgot to hand in my sick lines. Fortunately I didn't get disciplined, but I did get docked. So when they took the sick pay back, when it came again to $185.05 1/2, they rounded UP and took $185.06 which goes to show you, if they're willing to get you for a measly half cent, they'll definitely get you for the bigger fish as well.
This has nothing to do with pay, but SEPTA writes their schedules in half minutes. That's why you see operators carrying pocket watches with the second hand. This allows them to set 9 1/2 minutes instead of 10 for a certain span of a run, and saves them money over a period of time. So you leave at 10:58 1/2. On your schedule cards you write
10:58' . The ' is the half minute.
Chuck Greene
Heh. Some things never change ... even thirty years later. Appreciated the advice on the notebook. I used to carry a clipboard. Then again, we didn't have consoles on R1/9's. :)
I've found that by stuffing rolled up newspaper in the space between the plug door and bulkhead on the 46's eliminates the draft and it's free. On the 68's there's not much you can do but dress warm.
I hope you remembered to put in your 1 hour OT slip after writing that G2.
Blue has always been my favorite color and so when I was a kid back in the 70s, I used to love riding the Flushing line. The blue World's Fair colors were the most attractive color schemes I ever saw. In fact I was so obssessed with it that I think I passed up a chance to ride the old Third Avenue El in the Bronx to ride in them. Talk about dumb but then again, seven year olds generally aren't very bright. Needless to say I was quite disappointed when the redbirds came into existence but as is the case with any ugly child you eventually learn to love it.
Eric Dale Smith
The Worlds Fair paint scheme was the best EVER.
Roger that, Bill.
We'll be looking at 'em all April (at least those of us who have Bill Newkirk's Y2K+1 calendar!).
...so nice, the TA decided to redo the entire R-10 fleet in roughly the same scheme, and that was the best those trains ever looked.
Needless to say I was quite disappointed when the redbirds came into existence but as is the case with any ugly child you eventually learn to love it.
Actually, IIRC the first redbirds preceeded the R-33 Worlds Fair cars by about 1 year.
Yep. The R-29s are the original `birds, having arrived in `62. The R-33s and R-36s starting showing up about a year later, with the mainline cars going into service first, if I remember right (and I never could figure out why the TA decided to paint the R-10s World Fair colors and had the Mainline R-33/36s delivered as Redbirds, albeit with the cooler-looking NYC Transit System logo compared with the current MTA design).
Why are there some photos on this site of White Redbirds?
Because for a short period of time, they wer painted white (I think this was back in 1984). Only lasted for a short time, though...red covered graffiti a lot better. -Nick
In the mid 80s the TA decided to declare war on graffiti. The white trains were a symbol of that that declaration. They didn't last too long as the white trains became a too-tempting target for graffiti vandals. Soon red became the color of choice except for the R-10s.
While the option order of R-142s is tentatively scheduled for 1/2003, I'm going out on a limb here to suggest a few WF cars will still be in revenue service come 10/2004. Would the TA put a train or two back in the blue scheme if we suggested it? -Nick
It's a nice idea but I doubt it. The TA isn't THAT smart.
Eric D. Smith
I sent in my first Employee Suggestion as a TA employee. I probably should have vetted it among the experts here first, but it was Friday, and I had the form.
You probably have heard the controversy about people, most recently a child who fell through the door, falling between cars. The TA wants the doors unlocked so train personnel can walk through quickly (without locking and unlocking) and clear the train at terminals, and for escapability in an emergency. Advocates want a cazillion dollar accordian pass through to keep people from falling between the cars.
Side doors are opened and closed remotely by the conductor. I suggested keeping the end doors locked in regular service, but allowing the conductor or T/O to release the locks througout the train automatically, just as you can remotely unlock the doors on your car. The automatic locks could be released at a terminal, or in an emergency. As a fail-safe, they could release automatically in a BIE or power-out situation, as long as the train was stopped.
This would eliminate the fall hazard in the 51 and 60 foot cars, and the escapability impediment in the 75 foot cars, which are kept locked. If they can do in on the side doors, they can do it on the end doors, I think.
I think your idea is a solution in search of a problem.
There is also a fundamental difference between the side doors and the end doors. A passenger is safe, if he is on either side of a side door. He is either in the car or on the platform. For the end doors, a passenger will either be inside the car or between the cars. The latter not being a safe position. Your mechanism will have to have permit opening from between the cars. This will effectivly destroy any value it may have. Passengers have been observed boarding a train from between the cars.
I go back to the days before air conditioned cars. Most doors were routinely held open with latches in summer. The BMT Standards were the one notable exception. People routinely rode between the cars despite the admonition against such practices posted on each door. I guess this was a throwback to the gate car days. In any case most riders prefer the ability to move between cars. Locking them will be a hard sell.
The problem with the recent accident raises some embarassing questions. I would guess that there is at least one end door per train that cannot be latched closed or will pop open. I do not thinkg that maintenance considers such doors a safety hazard, based on this empirical observation. The TA propaganda has stated that the end doors are inspected. I wish I could believe them, I doubt if a jury of subway riders would.
Passengers have been observed boarding a train from between the cars.
That's a PATCO trick Chuchubob told me about. During peak time you board the train through the end doors.
Passengers have been observed boarding a train from between the cars.
That's a PATCO trick Chuchubob told me about. During peak time you board the train through the end doors.
There was usually room for several passengers at the car ends, but the crowds near the doors prevented additional passengers from entering the cars. I was aware of the danger and exercised appropriate care, particularly on rainy days when I carried an umbrella as well as a briefcase.
That's asking for trouble. New York is still New York and those unlocked doors have provided many with an escape route for a would be psycho. Mayby I'm crying wolf but I still have vivid memories of being chased through trains by marauding wolf packs. Going from car to car invariably bought me enough time to keep out of range until we either reached a station or the motorman's cab.
Eric Dale Smith
On the 75érs they already have this feature. You need a vapor key on the R-44/46, but not on the 68(a). The keyhole / switch is in every cab. The problem is it would cost a lot of money to retrofit the older equipment, plus nobody likes a locked storm door.
If anything I would suggest 75' cars get a feature where whenever the train stops the doors unlock. But the problem is someone who enters the vestibule while doors are unlocked but the doors lock again before they can exit will not know about hitting the switch.
There is no reason why unlocked doors should be swinging open by themselves. In Philly the 67' cars on the BSS and PATCO, and 55' cars on the MFL have unlocked end doors. PATH end doors are also unlocked. The 75' SIR R-44s have unlocked storm doors. I have never seen a door with a latching problem on any of these companies.
Getting to railroads, the only time I ever see this problem on any RR is on cars where the stupid automatic door keeps reopening by itself, but I think it's an ADA requirement to have automatic storm doors now.
The real solution is to stop buying cars with sliding storm doors. Use the swing type as found on the NJT Arrows and the LIRR, those NEVER open. Even if it doesn't latch, the door is strong enough to hold itself closed while going 80 MPH.
That's an excellent point. Having ridden LIRR Huntington and Port Washington trains hundreds of times, I have never seen a swinging door come open.
Of course, you'd need to redesign and rebuild all the car ends...
I think is a better solution is to do what BART and the R142s have. Use end doors with two sliding panels. That way, one force acting on one of the panels is not enough on open the doors. The one force will try to open one panel and close the other panel at the same time. You have to have two forces acting in opposite directions (ie, opening them with both of your hands) for the doors to open. On BART, they don't even have locks on them.
Sounds like an opposite of the silly "This door automatically closes when train starts" thing that the Silverliners/Arrows have. I really don't get WHY those trains have that, or why for that matter, why they have a door that latches open (or swings). Couldn't they just do what slamtrak has, a sliding door that opens for a while, then tries to slide closed?
I think acordians between cars is a bit extreme. Though I'd love to see the T/A go to an articculated design. Oh well.
Couldn't they just do what slamtrak has, a sliding door that opens for a while, then tries to slide closed?
One, they cost more money. Two, when a mob of people are pushing onto a commuter train it's a pain when the door tries to close on the 20th person.
What is wrong with the first person (or C/R) opening the door and having it stay open while everyone else boards of gets off. Then the door shuts when the train starts moving (ie everone is IN the coach).
A sliding door is just that many more parts that can fail and that require maintainence.
Why does the door even have to close by itself? The LIRR did fine for 100 years or so with trains where you manually closed the doors....
Why does the door even have to close by itself? The LIRR did fine for 100 years or so with trains where you manually closed the doors....
What is your problem with a door that automatically closes when the train starts to move? It's safer to have a closed end door. The RR's don't want ppl riding b/t trains. How have these doors wronged you?
What is so extreme about acordians? I've been on plently of trains that use them, they aren't a big thing.
The cars doors shoud be locked while in motion and unlocked while not in service.
It's a long article by Lyndsey Layton in Sunday's paper. Several people are quoted, but I didn't see Oren mentioned (I skimmed thru the article). Part 2 on Monday.
Several people are quoted, but I didn't see Oren mentioned (I skimmed thru the article).
I printed out the article for a more careful reading and found "Oren Hirsch...always tries to claim the seat directly behind the operator so he can peer through the smoked-glass window and watch the controls and the track bed rushing under the train."
Thanks for digging up the article, Bob....quite an extensive article already, and thats only part one :-). Has the metro announced any sort of ceremony or other special events to commemorate the 25th ann. this tuesday? -Nick
I read on www.wmata.com that there are supposed to be commemorative merchandise available such as silver maps, a two car pewter train, silver smart cards, etc. I'm not sure if anything formal will be going on March 29 or not. Oh, yeah, there's also supposed to be a book on the history of Metrorail for $14.95 that's supposed to be coming out, according to the website.-
This'll probably be an updated book on Metro. There was another book, that's really old and outdated that was based on the story of Metro.
He was in the article it is under the words Moving People.
I especially note the article's comment about the inflexibility of building the system as two tracks throughout.
At the time it was built, the argument was that with ATC and switches, it would be no problem, since trains could be wrong-railed in an emergency. But they didn't count on success, and fixing the problem now would cost a mint.
At least they should have had strategicly placed bypass sidings and tail tracks.
I am mentioned and I just recieved word they ran my photo in yesterday's papers in the District.
I just recieved word they ran my photo in yesterday's (Saturday's) papers in the District. Does anyone have this edition of the paper or know where I can find one?
Thanks, in advance!
Oren
Sorry, I only get the VA version of it. You may want to try going to a DC Library, since they keep those on file for awhile.
On Friday there was a garbage collection at 2:18 PM at Queens Plaza Southbound. Consist had EP008 and EP009, with 3 specialized garbage-carrying flats sandwiched in between. I got a good look inside, they have brown bench seats with tables. Manual doors, like other work cars. An R train behind was sent express (BTW the Queens Plaza switches southbound are working again) because it was delayed and to get it around the train. However, after Queens Plaza it did not make any further collections, and disappeared into the Jamaica Yard Leads. So here're the questions:
Why was it there during the middle of a weekday? Don't they usually do this at night?
Why did it not collect at other stations?
Do the R-127/134s have field shunt? It was way fast, and even though the R was going express it still made it to Roosevelt on the local long before the R got there. Plus the rate it accellerated was faster than anything else I'd ever seen on the NYC subway, with exception to the R-142 in testing. Plus, this train was moving three flatcars full of garbage!
Where is the garbage unloaded, Willow lake?
Is there a schedule for garbage collection? If so, can anyone post it, or is the MTA afraid of someone hijacking the train and stealing its precious cargo?
>>4. Where is the garbage unloaded, Willow lake?
Hehehe. If that's true then it explains a lot. Specifically, two things:
1. Why it's so filthy.
2. Why it's inaccessible to pedestrians.
Dan
Having worked the refuse train four times(ugh), I'll try to answer the questions.
>>>Why was it there during the middle of a weekday? Don't they usually do this at night?<<<
That's true. But the TA has created special daytime refuse runs. I have no idea as to why.
>>>Why did it not collect at other stations?<<<
If that really was the case, I'm guessing that it was collecting G.O. refuse from the switch replacement.
>>>Do the R-127/134s have field shunt? It was way fast, and even though the R was going express it still made it to Roosevelt on the local long before the R got there. Plus the rate it accellerated was faster than anything else I'd ever seen on the NYC subway, with exception to the R-142 in testing. Plus, this train was moving three flatcars full of garbage!<<<
Yes they do. Shorter trains tend to accelerate faster than longer trains because they carry less weight. In regards to the refuse collector, it accelerates much slower under a heavy load on the flat cars because the flats do not have motors. Considering that the train made only one stop, the load was probably lighter than usual.
>>>Where is the garbage unloaded, Willow lake?<<<
The train is unloaded at the location where it started. In the B division:
#3 and #4 pickups start and unload at 207 St Yard.
Eastern and Southern pickups start and unload at 38 St Yard.
The bins are unloaded off the train onto a special refuse platform and remain on the platform until they are emptied onto garbage trucks.
>>>Is there a schedule for garbage collection? If so, can anyone post it, or is the MTA afraid of someone hijacking the train and stealing its precious cargo?<<<
There is a set schedule, but often the train is unable to fulfill it because the train has to bypass collection points because it's blocking a road train, a General Order prevents collection, or the train fills up before all the stops can be made. Sometimes because of this, points could not be picked up for a few days, thus the large collections of garbage bags that you often see on the platforms.
One time while starting the shift on #3 pickup, the supervisor said that the Concourse must be picked up first as it hasn't been collected in over a week (due to GO's). We started at 205 St empty, we ended at 155 St with such a full load that the cleaners had to rearrange the garbage out of the bins on the platform at 155 and stuff them onto the already stuffed bins on the train. Mind you this train was also "scheduled" to pick up the 8th Avenue line all the way to Euclid Avenue that night. So much for that.
As far as the cleaners duties:
In the beginning of the day, place the empty bins from the garbage platform onto the flat cars, lock up the flats and wait for the T/O to show up (the yard T/O's pre-inspect the train).
On the road, give the T/O one buzzer to stop the train at the specific pickup point (the train will be moving very slow at this point as the T/O's know where the pickup spots are.
Place the full bin from the platform onto the train and replace it with an empty bin.
Board the train, lock the doors and give the T/O two buzzers to proceed, or three buzzers if an additional pickup is to be made on that same platform.
After all collections are made, upon arrival at the Yard, place the full bins onto the platform for collection by the trucks. When all bins are placed onto the platform, wash up and sign out.
A normal set-up for the refuse collector (for the B division anyway) is three flat cars with one work motor on each side. During the summer, two additional road cars can be added for the cleaners to work out of (A/C) as the work motors are not equipped with air conditioning, only large old style fans like the R30's used to have. Also a cleaning crew consists of 3 cleaners and one cleaner supervisor who is in charge of the train. Cleaners need 25+ years to pick the refuse collector jobs. They are the highest seniority cleaner jobs in the system as they pay mucho OT every night (at least 14 1/2 hours total pay per night plus night differential).
I have seen it running around on the Queens IND virtually every day between the 2 rush hours for the past couple of weeks. With all the GO's it is kind of hard to get it to and from Queens,that running it during the day allows them to pick up the garbage. Also, the stations are a bit cleaner since previously you saw the bags piled up along the stations spread out along the platform (Woodhaven Blvd) or piled up at the platform ends (63rd Drive). In addition, some stations have rooms at the end of platforms to store the garbage, but these were filling up because the garbage wasn't picked up often enough. Previous to the garbage train sighting, the trash was being picked up by TRUCK. I kid you not! They are still using trucks on the Eastern Divsion! No problem at elevated stations as they throw the garbage down the stairs, but at an underground station, the guys had to throw it UP the stairs in a relay style and hope the bags didn't break! At places like Jamaica Center & Supthin/Archer, they sent the garbage up the elevator to the truck on the street. The TA finally figured out that they should go back to the garbage train since it works out better in the long run. I should clarify: the TA started to partially eliminate the garbage trains when the WillyB closed a couple of years ago and expanded the program to the Queens IND. Sometimes, the train has to make 2 or more trips to the same station if they are delaying the road trains.
Okay, so their replacing (removing?) the switch at Ditmas merging the two southbound tracks into one. The lack of crossovers along the line requires trains to run from Smith-9 to 18th ave on the express. since the express track was in use, Gs had to turn at Church and did so while OOS. The thing is, why didn't they run the F express and the G local? The G has to turn at Church anyway, and the G will switch off before getting even close to the work site! The five red lights were placed on the tracks at the Tunnel portal, well after the turnoff for the layup tracks!
True. They might have had to add a couple of G trains.
Also, I thought (maybe wrongly) that the G's were turning 'upstairs' yesterday, taking the crossover between B3 & B4 just south of Church...
The weekend G train operators are qualified on OPTO from Court Sq. to Smith/9th only. They may not have wanted the added expense of assigning conductors on overtime (running to Church), since they never have enough conductors as it is due to high turnover. Because of the "long relay", they had to add a couple of trains as it is, thereby costing the TA additional money in crew expenses. BTW: when driving along Bay Pkwy this morning, I saw a string of F trains laid up on the express track. Anybody know why? Coney Island Yard can't still be flooded!
I know that Queensboro Plaza used to be an 8 track, four platform station and that the north side was demolished. I have a few questions.
1. Why and when was it demolished?
2. What was the service pattern when it was still up?
3. I have noticed that just outside of the station on the 7 heading toward 33rd and on the N toward 39th there are provisions for up to six tracks and ramps leading to the lower level of the el. What were these used for?
4. How could so much capacity be necessary for only two lines?
5. I know there was also service over the QB Bridge. Where did this go and was it subway?
Dan
It was demolished in the 80s, last used in the 40s. The bridge line went to the second ave el and the demolished trackways. I'd figure tracks for all possible services: Bridge-Astoria, Bridge-Flushing, Tunnel-Astoria, and Tunnel-Flushing lines.
No. The north side was demolished much earlier, and the Second Avenue El used the current BMT tracks. The north side was all BMT. One would take the wider BMT cars from the tunnel and transfer to el/IRT size shuttles to Astoria and Flushing (Astoria was IRT sized).
>>> I know that Queensboro Plaza used to be an 8 track, four platform station and that the north side was demolished. I have a few questions. <<<
My eyes still fill with tears when I see pictures of the amputee that remains as the present Queensboro Plaza station. To get answers to your questions 1-4, read the histories of the IRT and BMT lines that go into QBP on this website. Until 1942, the 2nd Avenue El also went there over the bridge.
Tom
1. Why and when was it demolished?
The service pattern was changed in 1942 and 1949. The structure was demolished in 1962.
2. What was the service pattern when it was still up?
The Flushing and Astoria lines were operated jointly by the BMT and IRT. The IRT trains were further divided into Steinway Tunnel service and 2nd Ave El service. 2nd Ave El service was discontinued in 1942.
BMT El cars were used BMT service and required a change to steel subway cars at Queensboro Plaza.
The present system with BMT trains to Astoria and IRT trains to Flushing was instituted in 1949.
3. I have noticed that just outside of the station on the 7 heading toward 33rd and on the N toward 39th there are provisions for up to
six tracks and ramps leading to the lower level of the el. What were these used for?
This map shows the track layout. On the lower level from south to north: IRT trains from Flushing; IRT trains from Astoria; BMT trains from Astoria to Flushing; BMT trains to Manhattan. On the upper level from south to north: IRT trains from the Steinway Tunnel; IRT 2nd Ave El trains from Manhattan; BMT trains from Flushing to Astoria; BMT trains from City - terminal.
4. How could so much capacity be necessary for only two lines?
A passenger boarding at any platform could catch: 1 - a subway train to Times Sq via the Steinway Tunnel; 2 - an El train to City Hall; 3 - an El train to South Ferry; 4 - a BMT El train to the opposite terminal (Flushing or Astoria).
5. I know there was also service over the QB Bridge. Where did this go and was it subway?
It was a branch of the 2nd Ave El. Its downtown terminals were City Hall and South Ferry. There was also a shuttle between the 2nd and 3rd Ave Els at 34th St, until 1930. It was an "Open Air Line".
3. I have noticed that just outside of the station on the 7 heading toward 33rd and on the N toward 39th there are provisions for up to
six tracks and ramps leading to the lower level of the el. What were these used for?
This map shows the track layout. On the lower level from south to north:
IRT trains from Flushing;
IRT trains from Astoria;
BMT trains to Manhattan;
BMT trains from Astoria to Flushing.
On the upper level from south to north:
IRT trains from the Steinway Tunnel;
IRT 2nd Ave El trains from Manhattan;
BMT trains from City - terminal;
BMT trains from Flushing to Astoria.
My original post reversed the order on the north side between the BMT subway and El tracks.
They really ran trains from Flushing to Astoria? Wow. That'd be damn useful in getting to my grandmother's house.
Also, if the north side hadn't been demolished, d'you think that there might be some extra incentive to use the extra capacity to field an Astoria extension to LaGuardia?
Dan
>>> They really ran trains from Flushing to Astoria? <<<
Keep in mind, the idea was not to have a one seat ride from Flushing to Astoria. Both lines were feeders to the Manhattan bound BMT trains. The BMT Standards could no go further than QBP because the stations were made for IRT width cars. Prior to unification in 1940, these were two independent companies and the North and South sides of the QBP station had separate fare control zones and no free transfer between them. Also, until the big fare hike in July 1948, there were no free transfer points between the divisions in Manhattan at Times Square or any where else. Therefore Queens riders would choose an IRT or BMT train dependant upon where their final destination was.
The BMT track plan was logical because it provided BMT riders going to Manhattan with either a cross platform transfer or one flight down stairs. The riders coming from Manhattan to either Flushing or Astoria also had either a cross platform or one flight down stairs transfer to reach their destinations.
In 1948, since it was all one company, it was logical to make the Astoria Line BMT size and run BMT service straight through from Manhattan and discontinue the IRT service to Astoria and BMT service to Flushing, but provide an easy transfer at QBP.
Tom
They really ran trains from Flushing to Astoria?
Officially, they were 2 separate lines: the 8 - Astoria and 9 - Flushing. However, the El service ran round robin out of necessity to the track configuration. This permitted the El cars to use a diamond cross-over that would not interfere with either following IRT trains or with BMT subway trains. The BMT was fairly innovative in making full use of the facilities they were dealt.
Also, if the north side hadn't been demolished, d'you think that there might be some extra incentive to use the extra capacity to field an Astoria extension to LaGuardia?
The old Queensboro Plaza station did not provide any additional track capacity for the Astoria and Flushing branches. The El tracks over the Bridge did. If you want to increase the number of trains on either the Astoria or Flushing lines, rebuild the 2nd Ave El.
The problem with the LGA extension is that it will not generate any more traffic for LGA. LGA is running at its runway and acreage capacity. It is also the most efficiently run airport based on acreage. The only way this airport can experience growth is to expand it by filling in Flushing Bay. :-)
In addition to your excellent rundown, a further comment on the necessity of so much station "for two lines" would add that the BRT/BMT also hoped to run Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown service out of the station.
Unlike the City, they thought people on the Crosstown route might like a one-seat ride to Manhattan.
>>> On the lower level from south to north:
IRT trains from Flushing;
IRT trains from Astoria;
BMT trains to Manhattan;
BMT trains from Astoria to Flushing.
On the upper level from south to north:
IRT trains from the Steinway Tunnel;
IRT 2nd Ave El trains from Manhattan;
BMT trains from City - terminal;
BMT trains from Flushing to Astoria. <<<
Stephen;
Could you expand on two things. Did the 2nd Ave. El trains reverse direction in the upper level track and not go past QBP at all? Since IRT trains going to both Flushing and Astoria used one side of the upper platform, why did they use both sides of the platform in the other direction since they were going to the same destination?
Tom
The 2nd Ave El trains ran to Ditmars and to Willets Pt. Unlike the BMT El cars they did go to Main St.
There was a diamond crossover west of the lower level platform. The platform was extended to add the present tower. The IRT trains would cross to go the the various destinations. If a Steinway bound train from Astoria and a 2nd Ave bound train from Flushing arrived at the same time, there would be a switching conflict.
The upper level is easier to explain because the switch is still in place east of the platform. It's the switch that connects the #7 to the rest of the system. IRT subway trains from the Steinway Tunnel entered the southernmost track. They would go straight to go to Flushing and diverge to go to Astoria. IRT El trains from 2nd Ave entered the next track. They would go straight to go to Astoria and diverge to go to Willets Pt.
The BMT subway cars relayed east of Queensboro Plaza. The single relay track was south of the Flushing local track and extended to the Viaduct. The trackway is still intact and is visible.
The original plan was for the BMT to terminate at Queensboro Plaza. However, residents complained about the double fare. BMT single fare service started in 1924. The relay track dates from this time and was an add-on.
This is how I look at it: The Astoria and Flushing lines were both intrisically IRTs. The platforms were cut to IRT specs, and initially it was only the IRT (from 42 St/Steinway Tunnel and the 2nd Ave El) on both lines before the BMT's 60th St tunnel was openned.
Once the BMT did reach Queensboro Plaza, it could go no further without a transfer. So at QBP, BMT passangers transfered to BMT trains which were IRT sized. These ran together with through IRT service. I think they originally divisded each patform between IRT and BMT, and you paid for one or the other and your train only platformed on the side you paid for. But once unification began, the two divisions simply coexisted in the normal fashion.
Does that make sense?
:-) Andrew
I believe the answers to most of your questions can be found elsewhere on the NYCSubways site.
Today's cover story and the first of a series with lots of sidebars in the print edition:
It's Overcrowding Hell
For City Straphangers
Not surprising, from a paper that couldn't figure out four days ago there's more than one station in Chinatown from the two sets of tracks coming off the Manny B, though at least they're still not as bad as the Times.
Odds are one of the upper echilon editors or one of the executives was forced to ride the subway for some reason within the last few weeks and discovered that gosh, this thing is really, really crowded, and then decided the News had to do a feature series reporting on this to let the public know -- or at least let the friends of the editor and or executives who als don't ride the subways know what the conditions are.
Hopefully, the follow up stories will provide some new information.
At least some of the statictics are interesting such as the number of daily passengers being greater than the population of LA.
What EXACTLY is considered a 'ride' these days- when someone actually pays a fare, or everytime swipes their Metrocard [FunPass,weekly,monthly,etc], it is considered a 'ride'?? Also, in the 'good old days' many more fares were paid simply because there wern't as many 'free' transfers- You actually used to have to pay a separate nickel to change from the BMT to the IRT at Times Square before 1948 or so for example..... I always wonder how that impacted 'ridership' numbers....
I don't know the answer to that. I can only guess that they count each swipe as a passenger. Still, the numbers are staggering.
Before my days as a transit employee I was a Lex commuter [1962-64] and guess I could offer "so what's new"? Brian Cudahy stated in "Under The Sidewalks of NY" that the record number of passengers hauled was IIRC some 7 million , again IIRC one day in l947, and I doubt that it was that unusual a day. They did still have the 3rd Ave. el then but otherwise the lines weren't much different from today. With a few exceptions, additions, and deletions the physical plant isn't much different now.
>>> With a few exceptions, additions, and deletions the physical plant isn't much different now. <<<
Isn't the big difference increased headways. The article stated that they could only run 26 express and 23 local trains through Grand Central during the 8:00-9:00 am rush hour. Those are headways of 4.6 minutes on the express and 5.2 minutes on the locals.
Tom
No, but the way the system is RUN within the plant is WAYYYY different -more speed restrictions, the procedures when someone is hurt, etc,etc......
As a daily 1/2/3 rider, I believe the toy trains on the "A" division are a major contributor to this problem. We should have the 142's until at least 2040, based on the lifespans of other models. In that time, I really wish all the former IRT tunnels and stations could be expanded and/or reconfigured, to allow for "B" size cars to replace the 142's, by the end of their lifespan.
If they did enough of that within 20 years, the replacements to the R62's, which I assume would be needed by about 2020, could then be "B" size. The remaining "A" size lines would have the middle-aged 142's. In 2040, those cars could then be replaced with "B" size ones.
I realize that overcrowding is significant on the lines with "B" size cars also, and that the above suggestion alone will not solve the problem. However, I think it would go a long way to help, especially with the -same number- of "B" size trains replacing the "A" size trains on the numbered lines. (From someone's else's post a long time ago, I remember reading that the city actually briefly considered doing this for the Lex lines.)
I know that for NYC, even 40 years would be an aggressive schedule for such a project, given the time, expense, community disruption, and other politics involved. But those "A" cars are too darn small. Those lines should be upgraded, in terms of size.
Then of course, there's that 2nd Avenue subway...
I suspect we're going to be stuck with A division specs. The Second Ave. line may become the reality.
I fully agree with you on your assessment of IRT cars being like toys. To expand it to B division size would be prohibitively expensive and cause severe 24/7 multiple service disruptions. During the transition, you will have extremely large gaps between train & platform which passengers could not negotiate and huge risks of passenger injury.
"During the transition, you will have extremely large gaps between
train & platform which passengers could not negotiate and huge risks of passenger injury."
For stations in which "A" size cars had to stop on newly-adjusted "B" size platforms during the transition, I figured some kind of temporary measure could be used, such as wooden platform extenders. I recall them in use on the Brighton line (Avenue U station) a few years ago, when they were placed on top of the local tracks. The local "D" and express "Q" trains both stopped at this local station during this period. The tracks they stopped on are now back in use as express tracks.
Another issue that I thought of but didn't mention: Could the "A" size els handle the larger cars, in terms of weight? If not, they would have to be torn down - -after- replacement underground lines were constructed.
Widening the tunnels on Contract 1 would be prohibitavely expensive. They'd have an easier time lengthening the IRT platforms to handle 12-car trains (612 foot cars with 36 doors per train) in order to increase capacity, although that wouldn't be a walk in the park either, just going by all the fun up at Broadway and 72nd Street right now just trying to fix up the express platforms for 10-car trains.
The main advantage the IRT trains have is their ability to move in tight spaces -- just let a B division car try to run the jughandle at 149th and Grand Concourse or the inner loop at South Ferry. If a line was planned that needed to fit into a tight with a sharp turning radius, the IRT specs would work out better. But that would only affect turns outo side streets and/or winding a new line through the downtown jumble of tunnels in Manhattan and Brooklyn. As of now, there are no plans on the boards to build anything in either place, and Second Ave. is plenty wide enough for a two- or four-track line.
The only other potential advantage the A division would have would be if the MTA decided to build Second Ave. to B division tunnel width, lay down A division tracks close to one side of the tunnel or the other and rent out the remaining space for phone/data/cable fiber optic transmission lines to earn some extra $$. But as of now the MTA isn't into leasing tunnel space to other companies, so that's not likely to happen.
Hey guys I think another point you may be missing as for the overcrowding situation goes. If I'm not mistaken I beleive the size of the car fleet years ago was something like 7,000 cars. Am I correct on that figure and would that help the problem?
Well DUH! The Daily News has finally discovered what was well know since the first day of IRT operations in 1904: that the NYC Subway System is a victim of its' own success. And it is the politicians who have not doled out the money for expansion over the years, the same politicians who blame the TA for service inadequecies. The politicos deal the cards, the TA can only play with the cards dealt to them. So the TA and its' employees will remain the bad guys to the media, the politicially proper thing, especially in the editorial pages. Re: the whole 63rd St. extension controversy. No matter what the TA does, they remain the bad guys.
what every happen to septa market frankford evel car 1001.
I got a shot of it in service on February 19, 2001.
Why?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I think it's still in service, but if I had it my way, it (and the other 219) would be in the scrapyard.
This morning, Sunday, a brooklyn bound #2 (redbird) derailed just outside the fulton st. station in Manhattan. 100 people on board. No injuries.
Looked like the first car tipped up off the tracks at a slight angle; right at the reverse part of that nasty curve leading into Fulton Street. Couldnt see any damage nor could I see the unit number (this was the 10AM Eyewitness news).
wayne
Here's the story from NY1.
Get ready for the first IRT WDs (well, on revenue trackage anyway).
a) What’s a “WD?”
b) How do they get the trains back on the tracks after a derailment?
WD = Wheel detector. A method of speed control at interlocking plants.
The system used to rerail trains after a derailment is really simple depending on how far off the tracks the train has gone. For derailments like the one this morning, this is how it's done. The idea was 'borrowed' from Metro-North a few years ago. As simply as I can make it. A steel plank is places across the rails under the derailed car end. On this plank, hydraulic 2 jacks are installed, one vertically and one horizontally. Both are hooked to a gasoline powered hydraulic pump through a manifold with numerous levers on it. The vertical jack is made so that it can also slide horizontally. The truck is then secured to tne carbody via chains and winches. The vertical jack is then used to lift the car and truck over the ball of the rail. The horizontal jack is then used to move the car horizontally (by pushing the vertical jack) until the truck lines up with the rails and the car is lowered into place. Of course there are some other intermediate steps but we can rerail a car in under an hour per end.
That is very similar to how we rerail at the Seashore Trolley Museum, but we have to do it by the "Armstrong Method" of jacks rather than a gasoline powered system.
There's also the "rocks, paper scissors" method if you have power - rocks between the wheels and the rails, a couple of levers and a prayer. :)
>>>a) What’s a “WD?” <<<
WD= Wheel Detector
Sorry, but I don't know the exact answer to the 2nd querie.
Peace,
ANDEE
Anybody who takes that curve at a speed greater than 10 MPH should have their heads examined! Southbound approaching Fulton you are not only on the inside track (with the smaller radius) but you have that little reverse jog to swing outside the platform. I'm not sure if a WD is in order there, at the very least a strict GT. That is one of the tightest curves in the entire IRT, if not the entire system.
And YES THERE IS at least ONE WD in the IRT, I have seen its ugly face on the southbound Pelham Express approaching the Whitlock portal, it is revenue trackage as the Diamond 6 uses it. I guess it's there to protect the curves approaching Hunts Point station.
wayne
To all,
I was quoted in today's Washington Post although I am not in the article I
believe I was originally susposed to be in. There are still two more
articles tomorrow.
If you subscribe to the Washington Post OR you have a printed copy of the
Washington Post:
The article starts on the front page of the paper, under the picture of the
two red line trains between Rhode Island Avenue and Union Station. It
continues on page A12. My quote is at the top of the second column. There is
also a second article on page A14.
If you do not subscribe to the Washington Post OR you wish to read the
article online:
Go to "http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51175-2001Mar23.html"
(copy & paste this into your browser). The URL for the second article is
"http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51181-2001Mar23.html". There
are two very intersting videos online as well that you can get online. Links
available from the articles.
Tomorrow, there is at least one more article, maybe even two. I will post if I appear again.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com/
WHat was your exact quote? I couldn't find it.
Who put the sign in the photo that says "jack go home"?
Who is jack? and why does someone want him to go home?
Interesting variation of the headlight/tailight placement on the R143.
I think someone got carried away with putting the NYC Subway sign on the front. It sticks out like a sore thumb.
Yeah, the MTA must feel that it is more important to remind you whose railroad you are riding on rather than being able to tell if you are on the right train.
Don't know, that's how the picture was sent to me...
Dave, The photo is one of 10 off of the NYCT Website. I don't think that sign was 'as shown' in the original. I'll check in the AM. It's a cute touch though.
OK. Please explain this one and don't mention Heypaul sent you.
Reflects what people thought of those cars, particularly next to those shiny R-68s. BTW: Geocities is now blocking picture posts, go here to see it, then click back on your browser and it will appear where it should. If clicking doesn't work, copy and paste this: http://www.geocities.com/blightliner/broadwayjunk.02.jpg
Is MBTA red line car Number 01717 still in service?
Yes
As I was going back to my school via a shuttle bus last night, we always pass the amtrak/commuter rail yard by I-93 here in Boston. The AE trains were not visible from the road, but I was wondering...since now there are two sets of trains, does the AE train that arrives in south station at 9:30 friday night spend the weekend in Boston? If so, where is it kept? -Nick
I'm sure its kept under cover in the maintance facility.
Hurry up before it becomes passe'. Reach back in your memory and try to pick the best rail and transit movies of the year 2000.
The categories are:
Best Picture (for rail or transit content)
Best Railroad in a motion picture
Best Transit System in a motion picture
Best Preformance of a piece of Railroad rolling stock
Best Preformance of a piece of Subway rolling stock
Best Preformance of a piece of a Ligh Rail Vehicle
Best Visual Effects involving a rail vehicle.
Best Sound Effects involving a rail vehicle.
Most Accurate portrayal of a railroad or transit system.
To be considered the movie must have been released b/t Jan 1 2000 and Dec 31 2000.
The only one I can think of was "Unbreakable" and even though its portrayal of transit and trains SUCKED I'd have to nominate it for best visual effects with the crash and all.
I'd say Unbreakable for Best Pic, Best RR, Best RR Rolling Stock, Best Transit System, Best Subway Vehicle, but only because I can't think of any competitors. It definitely does not get Most Accurate.
Unbreakable didn't feature a Subway vehicle and it barely featured a transit system.
"State and Main" featured a duded up MTBA commuter train. No engine shots tho.
Yesterday.
I saw a R40S on B Train at 42 St. I keep thinking that B Line no longer run R40S's. What are the odds of getting a R40S on the B Line?
R40S #4210
On the WEEKENDS there is a good chance of catching one. At this moment. This may change in August.
Peace,
ANDEE
Think You for the info.
R40S #4200
With all the GOs, it was quite an interesting trip.
Took the F at 2nd Ave. It switched to the Express tracks right before 4th Ave,
where G trains normally turn back. The run from 7th Ave. to Church Ave. using
the separate express tracks was quite fast and felt longer than I expected.
Still on the express track, train bypasses Ditmas, where a work train was on the
local track. Moved to local at 18th Ave. and run regular service to Coney Island.
Walked over to the B platform. The train had only one door open in each car.
And I mean "one door" and not "a pair of doors" open.
I wonder if this is usual practice, to keep heat in the train.
Conductor announces that the train will run on the N and will
only stop at 59th St. and resume normal service at 36th St.
So, there goes the B Sea Beach Express. Time to pretend it's an NX!!
Unfortunately, track condition wasn't so great and we didn't speed much.
Still, we passed an N before reaching the tunnel.
I got off at 36th to catch a local. The fore-mentionned N comes in.
Got off at 9th St. and went upstairs to catch the action on the F platform.
I hoped G trains were extended to Church Ave. Well, they were... But,
they didn't take any passengers between Smith-9th & Church.
A Queens bound G bypasses the station on the express track.
Somehow, some people were on the CI bound platform.
When the next CI bound F slowly switches to the express tracks,
its motoman notices the people waiting and opens his window to yell out
that there won't be any trains stopping on this platform.
"No trains!!! Go to the other side!!!"
Queens bound F comes in, stayed on til Bergen St and switched to the G.
Got off at Fulton and walked to Atlantic Ave.
Atlantic Ave. (IRT) was quite a mess with both express tracks being
worked on. A shiny 4 comes in. I wanted my railfan window so I passed.
Took the next 2. Some cars showed the "2 to Brooklyn - 5 to the Bronx"
roll sign previously used during the big GO of the Harlem tunnel.
To be on the safe side, I stayed on the train until Brooklyn Bridge.
Thankfully there was no one yet at the railfan window of the next
downtown 5. A young man got on at Bowling Green to share the view.
Maybe a subtalker? I didn't ask...
I've been through this route (Bowling Green-South Ferry-Rector) before,
but this was the first time it didn't stop at South Ferry. It felt very weird
to bypass that station. Both Rector and Cortland were quite crowded and
I could see people on the platform yelling at the 5 Express.
People at Chambers and 14th St were confused too. Many chose to stay until
the T/O annouced it was the only express running on this line. She said
"The 2 is not running and the 3 runs somewhere else" Uuhh.. I think it's the other way...:-)
Got off at Times Sq., took an N downtown for the express run.
The uptown platforms didn't look finished at all, but they were open anyway.
Quite a lot to experience for a few hours of railfanning!!!
It was fun.
Passengers on the closed platform at Fourth Ave.: The TA tapes the access stairway closed. Passengers break the tape. It is cost prohibitive to put iron gates at every stairway just for an occassional G.O.
Indeed. The tape was broken there.
Also, at Atlantic Ave. IRT Manhattan bound local platform, a lady
tried to go down the old passageway at the rear end of the platform.
She came back up very quickly. In this case, the gate was open.
Just slightly: 23rd St./Ely Ave. will be closed. Instead of the Queens Blvd. transfer we can give Fred his last subway ride on this trip on a Redbird to 74th St. for the transfer to the bus to the airport.
I'm beginning to lay several different sets of plans to visit Newark before the PCCs are replaced by LRVs. However, to make things more interesting - and difficult, one of the unions at York University went on strike which completely disrupted classes earlier this year for a total of eleven weeks, mainly due to politicking between the administration and the union in question. The result: An extended year which may last longer than the PCCs in Newark, depending on when they are withdrawn from service.
First of all, what is the current estimated date for the replacement of the PCCs with LRVs? Specifically, I really need to know if the PCCs are going to be replaced before or after May 26, which is the last day of exams.
To think that everything should have finished up before the Easter weekend and that there would be plenty of time to visit Newark before the PCCs are replaced if it weren't for that strike >|:( (A very pissed off Robert King not smiley.)
Old trolleys...New trolleys
Whats the difference?
Peace,
ANDEE
Very simple - PCC's are classic post WWII streetcars, and Newark is one of 3 places where PCC's are still in daily service. The new LRV's are the same as the cars on Hudson-Bergen. Nice, but new.
When the LRV's displace the PCC's on the Newark City Subway, that leaves only two properties using classic PCC cars - Boston and San Francisco.
You forgot Madison, Wisconsin...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's not Madison, it's Kenosha. My fault. The number of PCC operators continues to dwindle.
Remember, the original 1936 design is 65 years old, and the postwar 1946 design is 55.
When Brooklyn gets things in order, we will be operating up to 15 PCC's in regular service similar to Kenosha.
I will post pics of the first of the 12 ex-Shaker cars arriving at the end of the month, along with the pics of ex-Boston 3303 finally painted, and powered up. It going to be a very exciting and exhausting time here.
What paint scheme(s) will you be useing on the restored PCCs?
-Robert King
I've just returned from a week in Lagos, and thought some of the SubTalk crowd might be interested in some observations regarding transit in Lagos, as well as some other notes.
BACKGROUND
Lagos is a city of 10 million. There are three distinct areas of Lagos -- Mainland Lagos, Lagos Island and Victoria Island.
There is not a single functioning traffic light in all of Lagos. There is sporadic traffic control by police at major intersections. A network of modern limited access highways was constructed during the 70's and remains fundamentally intact (save for serious pothole problems in some spots). Nigeria (an OPEC member) prospered during the 70's oil boom, but deteriorated after a military overthrow of the government in the early 80's. Democratic rule was restored in late 1999.
In 1952, Lagos' population was just above 100,000. It has increased 100-fold in 48 years.
GETTING AROUND
Rail transit -- Lagos has no subway or light rail, and no current plans. While cruising across the Third Mainland Bridge, I was struck by how much the water and marsh islands reminded me of the A train going toward the Rockaways. Sitting in traffic on that same Bridge later that night, I really missed that A train. Although I did not get to see it, there is an inter-city train that makes one daily round trip between Lagos and Ibadan (another major Nigerian city). The two-hour trip frequently runs 5 to 6 hours behing schedule.
Bus transit -- Lagos had city run bus service until shortly after the military takeover. Bus routes were more like our Limiteds, with stops spread about a half-mile apart and corresponding to major residential or business areas. Many open air markets have built up around bus stops.
Van service -- Sprang up to replace the missing bus service. These are run by private owners along routes specified by the government, and make stops at the old bus stops. Most vans are at least 15 or 20 years old. On at least 5 occasions during my week in Lagos, I observed a van being pushed along its route by its riders. The most common vehicle is the old VW microbus. Second most common is a similar looking vehicle manufactured by Mercedes. All are painted in a color similar to our school busses. All are also covered completely with dents and dings. Nudging your competitor out of the way is apparently a well-accepted practice.
Most vans appear to run quite full -- I counted 15 people seated inside a VW van on many occasions. An additional person or two can freqeuntly be found hanging off the side (most of the side doors have been removed) during peak times -- though those persons may actually be associated with the operation of the service (conductors / fare collectors?). Boarding and stepping off moving vehicles is frequent.
Fares appear to start at 50 Naira (about 40 cents). I don't know if there are distance based fares or not. As I place quite a value on my own life, I did not ride any of the vans during my stay.
Government oversight appears to be loose at best, though they are trying to improve. Some new regulations went into effect while I was there -- drivers found off their licensed route are subject to fines of 250 Naira.
Motor Scooters -- Supplement the van service. As mentioned earlier, the vans operate like our limited buses. As the daytime temperature year-round is generally between 90 and 100 degrees, the walk from the bus stops can be hot in addition to being lengthy. The scooters are mainly two-seaters and take you from the van stop to your destination (with little regard for rules of the road). It is not at all uncommon to see a woman in full African dress riding along on the back of a scooter. Fares are negotiated.
Traffic -- is like nothing I've seen anywhere else. The Cross Bronx is a Sunday drive across the park by comparison. Disregard for traffic law and convention is frequent, and generally serves to make congestion worse. Sidewalks are considered an excellent way of getting around gridlock.
OTHER NOTES
Electricity -- combine rampant growth with a lack of planning and you get California to the 100th power. Most homes are without power during the day (unless they have their own generators, which still require a supply of scarce diesel fuel), when power is diverted to industrial and office uses. Power is about a 50/50 proposition for a residence at night. NEPA (Nigerian Electric Power Authority, or Never Electric Power Anytime depending on who you talk to) has not built a new plant (or at least one that works) in more than 20 years. U.S. based Enron is currently working with NEPA to build a new plant as well as to modernize distribution and it is widely believed that power problems will be a thing of the past by the end of this year.
Water -- is only a problem if you need electricity to pump it. Unfortunately, most homes in Lagos require electricity to pump the water. Various water pumps are located in public areas. How does any self respecting citizen of Lagos carry their 25 liter water bucket? On their head. This has the added benefit of blocking out the hot sun.
Crime -- has died down recently. Nigeria recently led a U.N. peacekeeping force in Sierra Leone. Upon the soldiers return, the government did not have enough money to pay the soldiers. Soldiers were offered a choice between an IOU from the government or they could keep their weapon as full payment. No joke -- somebody thought this was a good idea. To the (apparent) shock of that same somebody, armed robbery skyrocketed. Most middle and upper class families in Lagos now live behind multiple barriers. A six foot high concrete wall with locking gate topped by barbed wire and/or broken glass surrounds most houses. Followed by a locking gate at the doors to the house. Bedrooms have all been moved to the second floor. Locking iron gate inside the house at the bottom of the stairs and another locking iron gate at the top of the stairs. Bars on all windows.
All in all, an interesting trip.
Chuck
Quite interesting observations. I'd long heard that Houston was the world's largest city without any sort of rail-based transit. Lagos obviously has let Houston off the hook!
They are calling for more snow tomorrow. Man this winter just won't end. Looks like 2-4 inches according to the weatherman. They claim a storm will form right over us. Not enough to mess up the subways but it will be annoying. Nothin' like trudging to the bus stop in unshoveled snow.
Man I hope they are wrong!!
Don't worry.....
THEY ARE DEAD WRONG
Peace,
ANDEE
Come on QTD7!! The average monthly snowfall for Central Park is five inches (see Central Park Climatological Averages for details). Distributions vary widely month-by-month, year-by-year -- meaning some years have less, some more. Which months/years will be on which side of average is something that is not predictable due the chaotic nature of weather patterns.
"If you don't like the weather, MOVE!"
Q Train should go to Syracuse. When we get hit, we get HIT HARD (180"+ this year so far)
Syracuse and Buffalo would seem to be the cities to live in for those people who love snow!
I H*A*T*E snow but I'm stuck here. Oh. well, winter's over got to run my friend's GE 80 tonner today :-)
II was *supposed* to have had my bike broken in by now (new top end, flowed/ported heads + hi compression pistons), but instead it had to get cold and rain and stuff :( I wanna bring this thing up to CT too this year :P Anyway, I've got 420 miles. Another weekend and I should have 1,000 or so, and be getting a new rear tire (switching to a solid disc, a tubeless, and a wider tire), and get it on the dyno. I'm gunning for 100hp at the wheel, and I had 85 this summer. Oh well.
Oh yeah, and Amtrak was %^*&%^*& 1/2 hour lated today *again*. I bumped into my friend Max though, so the trip up was entertaining and more pleasent.
$1.75
SEPTA fares will be going up another 15 cents by the end of the year, putting it on par with San Diego for the highest transit fares in the country. As well, all other fare instruements - passes and tickets, will increase as well.
$1.75 is the idiot fare. What will the "real" (ie TOKEN) fare be?
This is all speculation as to the amount, etc. There will be a fare hike at some time for some amount. When and how much remain unknown. I've heard that transfers may go up 10 cents and that tokens could go up by the same amount with no change in the 'idiot' fare. We shall see.
Of course, I have heard nothing about railroad fares, which are what really should go up, considering how low SEPTA's rail fares are (but how high their transit fares are).
I don't think RR fares will change this time around, and I have mixed feelings about that. In one sense, they are already high, but in another they should cover the cost of the service. It would be nice for our esteemed state legislature to start recognizing that transit needs more funding to help bring all fares down (instead they send us $100 real estate tax refunds - nice but not when there are needs).
SEPTA should re-examine a couple of ideas which might actually lower the fare but generate more revenue:
Allowing transfers to be used for continuations on the same route. Allegedly 'verboten' today (and we know some people cheat!), it would be helpful especially for those who need to drop off/pick up children at day care, school, etc.
Allowing transfers to be used for round trips on the same route within certain time limits.
Selling round-trip fares on RR at a discount - follow NJ Transit's lead and offer an excursion round trip that could be used in the PM peak but not in the AM.
Establishing more transfer points between transit and RR.
Make all city stations Zone 1 (including the Airport), even Forest Hills and Somerton where R3's leave the city and re-enter. This would give city residents a break, since the city is the largest funding contributor of all the local governments.
Wayne advised on this board several months ago that these two cars were among the R-42's that were no longer in service.
Would anyone happen to know what particular calamity befell these two, and when they were withdrawn from service?
It's happening again. There is a major malfunction in Subtalk insofar as there are moments when the entire index does not appear. Gremlins I presume?
Eric Dale Smith
P.S. No offense Dave. This sort of thing happens to EVERY website at one time or another.
Is perhaps your browser timing out before the database responds to the index query? Sunday nights the site is very busy. There is nothing I can do about it.
It is timing out. Thanks for the tip.
There really could be a BMT vs. IRT.: Which is quicker? Well:
The 4 could run against the D from Atlantic Av, bklyn to yankee stadium, Bronx. There's other competitions too. Like:
C vs. 1 between Coloumbus Circle and 168th st.
R vs. 6 between Canal St. and 59th.
Can anyone think of any other BMT/IND vs. IRT races? Does anyone know which of the pairings would win of above?
(7) vs. (F) between 6th Ave/42nd and 74th St/Bway/Roosevelt Ave. I give the edge to the (7), even though the one stopping at 74-Bwy is a local.
:-) Andrew
With the second installment of my series "A Tale of Ten Cities" heading for completion, I am now doing preliminary work for Volume Three. This book will be about the transit systems of Philadelphia. As such I am planning a series of trips there the moment this current book is off to the publisher. Now the last time I photographed any transportation facility in Philadelphia was in December of 1990 when I did a series of shots of the then extant #23 trolley line.
What I need to know is this: how many surface to surface trolley lines are still operating? What type of neighborhoods does the Frankford El run through and is it prudent to run through these areas with a camera (I plan to photograph the El from one end to the other, both at trackside and at street level)? Is there a museaum or archives that contains information on the history of the Philadelphia system and finally is Philadelphia large/diverse enough to warrant a literary undertaking on the scale of a New York or Chicago (I mean no disrespect to any Philadelphians who frequent this Site and if my comments have caused any offense then I apologize for that was not my intent)? Any help offered in this matter will be greatly appreciated.
Eric Dale Smith
The only trolley lines still in operation are the five subway-surface lines. There are no purely surface routes still running in the city.
The Frankford El area has deteriorated considerably over the past 10-15 years. It is still relatively safe in daylight but I would keep my wits about me while on the street with expensive camera equipment.
The Free Library main branch (19th & Vine) has lots of archives on Phila transit history. You may want to contact someone there to find out how available it is, etc. A fellow from the Phila area recently put together a short history of rail rapid transit in the city and used the resources on SubTalk, so you may want to use that link for some info also.
The Frankford El runs through some pretty tough Irish/Polish neighborhoods, but you should be safe in the daytime. The Market El runs through some pretty tough African American neighborhhods, but you should be safe in the daytime. Anywhere along the els is likely to be crowded; so long as you don't wander off into some back street, you'll be fine. The #23 and #15 trolley lines are officially "suspended," although in the past that has advanced to "abandoned" on other lines. There is, however, capital money allocated for the resumption of #15 (Girard Ave.) A short segment of the 23 runs at Christmas time in Center City. Trolley wire poles and tracks under the pavement are visible on almost every corner, if you're looking for them; most people have no idea they're there. There are three suburban light rail lines still running: two trolleys and one "pre-metro." You might want to check out the very good Atwater Kent Museum of the city's history. The only problem is their space is very limited, so they have to constantly rotate exhibits; you never know what might be on display. I read a book a while ago about New York, Philly, and Boston transit's development, but I forgot the title now. It gave a good history of the creation of the streetcar lines and later the sub and el. And although Philly's shrunken a lot in the last few decades, it has the history of a city on par with NY and Chicago. (I would say more).
The 56 (Erie-Torresdale) is also on the 'hiatus' list, which makes 3 surface lines that may return some day.