Alright Ladies and Gentlemen,
It time for another installment of Adventures From The Railfan Window. I heard the rumbling of a train coming by on Track M at Jackson Av shortly after 11 tonight. What I found was what might be consisdered a bizarre sighting at least by my interpretation.
In comes an R-62A, followed by the R-110A. The catch was that they followed each other almost too close. They were coupled together!!! It would seem that the 110A is dead and was being towed by the R-62A.
The consist was N-8010-09-08-07-8006-2335-34-33-32-2331-S. My guess is the cars were going to 207th Street Yard. Are they going on the deadline with other cars over there?
Also two other notes of interest: 1) The 62A-110A consist was trailed by another 5 car R-62A set. 2) And while the 110A was waiting in the middle, R-142s 6321-25, and 6346-50 came into Jackson Av making test stops. The 62A-110A train went ahead, as is the following 62A set, before the 142 could proceed downtown.
The only question I have is what kind of coupling did they have in place to put the R-62A and R-110A together? The 110A does not have an H2C Head, rather the type that the LIRR and Metro North use.
-Stef
I know there are several kinds of adapter sets ... might this be how?
An adaptor had to be used. But is there a type of adaptor that one can use that would convert the 110A's coupler (don't recall the classification of the coupler) to the old fashioned H2 Head? The 110A coupler is rather unique since it only exists on that 10 car train and no other in NYCT.
-Stef
You'd be amazed at what motivated car shop welders can do when they get tired of seeing something in their face day after day. After all, can you imagine how thrilled the kids were when they were handed an R-9 and told "make it a 75 footer, we don't care what it looks like when you're done?" Some folks down in Coney *LIVE* for that kinda stuff. :)
Yes, an N1-H2 adapter is needed. I guess they found it, because
last I heard from "informed sources" they had lost the only
one they had.
Another thing that's an easy thing for Coney to do in a pinch is to replace the lead truck on both ends with something "more standard" and just not wire up the motors and pipe if there's an incompatibility in that respect. When you're moving something, there are many ways to win if you've got a handy overhead crane ... if the adaptor was lost and I wanted to get something out of my shop, I wouldn't think twice about doing something like that.
Except that replacing a truck doesn't affect the coupler.
The entire coupler head itself can be replaced but often the
yoke which supports it is not of a compatible dimension to simply
do this.
Possibly that's what they did if they couldn't find the adaptor set. Never claimed to know all that much about the undercarriage, at least not on the newer trainsets. But I do know that over the years, the couplers have changed and they always did manage to retrofit most of the older cars when they needed to ... and there's a number of amazing cobjobs sitting out at Coney for all sorts of strange situations.
What is the coupler the S.E.T. trains use that allows the work engines to MU?
MCB-H2 Coupler Adapter, If I recall correctly. The Diesels look peculiar with an H2 coupler on it's end. Then again, I always thought rider cars looked odd with the MCB Coupler.
-Stef
This sounds very interesting. It sounds like the TA is bringing them down for a possible final evaluation. Make them road worthy or scrap them.
Hopefully someone up there at 370 Jay or 130 Livingston may have read some of our posts on this. You just don't scrap 10 year old subway cars that are worth about $10,000,000.00 or so that haven't been involved in a wreck or was burned to a crisp!
R-110A'S on the shuttle, and that's my final answer!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, since they seem to be able to get them on the road coupled to R-62s... in service as UNPOWERED TRAILER CARS?! :)
The R-110As are not electrically compatible with anything else, so they were being towed.
-Stef
It's been suggested that the cars be shipped up to Kawasaki's
plant in Yonkers to be re-equipped with the same gear that is
going on the 142As. Basically salvage the body shells. Otherwise
those cars will forever be oddballs with no spare parts.
"It's been suggested that the cars be shipped up to Kawasaki's
plant in Yonkers to be re-equipped with the same gear that is
going on the 142As. Basically salvage the body shells. Otherwise
those cars will forever be oddballs with no spare parts. "
Maybe Kawasaki can go easy on the cost if this is so. Since the R-142A's are already troublesome and behind schedule, Kawasaki should offer to retrofit the R-110A's into R-142A-1's. That would be 10 less cars on the future IRT car order that will wipe out the remaining Redbirds.
R-142A-1 or R-142B? Which so better ?
Bill "Newkirk"
It is rather interesting to find out that the R-110As were coupled to a 5 car set of R-62As. They must have replaced one of the couplers with an H2C type coupler.
BMTJeff
The 110A was equipped with an adapter (mounted onto the original N1 Coupler) for coupling to the 62A.
-Stef
Hello and thankyou webmaster for inducing me.. I have some questions for you people about the active layup positions throughout the system.. Any information would be much appreciated as I need to study how trains are distributed in the system when peak periods start and finish.
Where are they?? From the information gathered on this site, here are the positions of the layups, from what i can figure..
IRT:
145st-137st..is this tunnel used for storage up to 103st?
72st..there is a small side track there.. is it used??
68st-59st..is this used as off-peak storage??
Atlantic Ave.. 1 track layup??
Uticia tunnels
Sunnyside..how large is this layup??
Morris Pk-Pelham Pkway??
Baychester Ave-Dyre Ave??
Tracks near E180st and unionport yards??
BMT:
Ocean Parkway-Brighton Beach??
Prospect park??..start of the shuttle
Broad street????
Canal st-Essex st..
City hall lower level..
8th ave-6th ave (L train)
Lexington Ave??
IND:
Church Ave-Ditmas Ave..
4th ave-Smith st??
Ralph Ave-Uticia ave??
Clinton/washington ave-Lafayette Ave??
Bedford-Nostrand Aves??
21st-court square..
Queens plaza-36st..
179st,jamacia..
Outside jamacia yard?
135st-145st??
168st-175st..
Kingsbridge Rd-Bedford Pk blvd.
205st..
Any information on how many trains are stored in thes layups, or if any of these are/are not layups, would be lifesaving.. Thankyou!!!
Under BMT, you left out the center track of the Astoria line.
145st-137st..is this tunnel used for storage up to 103st?
72st..there is a small side track there.. is it used??
68st-59st..is this used as off-peak storage??
Atlantic Ave.. 1 track layup??
Uticia tunnels
Sunnyside..how large is this layup??
Morris Pk-Pelham Pkway??
Baychester Ave-Dyre Ave??
Tracks near E180st and unionport yards??
10 trains live at 137 yard - 6 #1s and 4 #3s. M Track from 103 St to 137 St is only used for storage during snow emergencies and holds six more trains.
72 St - used mostly to get the Garbage Train out of the way of Revenue trains. SB the spur is 5 cars long, NB it's three.
59 St Spur - holds one train, but mostly used for turning service due to problems.
Times Sq Spur - same as above.
Atlantic Ave - same as 59 St.
Sunnyside - this belongs to the LIRR and AmTrak not the IRT.
Two trains can be stored North of Dyre Ave
Two trains can be stored south of Times Sq (Queens), but mostly during snowstorms.
Utica Ave storage - 4 trains can be stored south of Utica Ave, mostly during GOs that limit access to Livonia Yard. If you store trains here, you lose the relay capability.
Main Line Storage - during the current New Lots El rebuilding, trains are being laid up on the Manhattan bound express track between Atlantic Ave and Franklin Ave.
In the BMT, City Hall Lower holds six trains overnight (I believe it's four N and 2 R, but don't hold me to that) and
Lexington Ave/ 63 St holds one train on each level overnight.
"New Lots El rebuilding, trains are being stored on the Manhattan bound express between Franklin and Atlantic."
Thanks Alex for giving one of the reasons why the 4 is terminating at Atlantic until at least the summer. BTW, as I type this post, there is shuttle service on the 3 between Utica and NL. The shuttles are one-tracking between Penn and NL Aves using the Manhattan bound track only.
Nights + Weekends, Queens Blvd express from 75th to 179st, both sides. Es hang out around Union TPK, Fs on Hillside ave, and depending on wether it is night or weekend Rs or Gs around Van Wyck Blvd.
In an odd change in policy, trains are stored in the stations with express platforms on Queens Blvd. Usually in areas with trains storage on express tracks they leave the station empty to deter vandalism.
The Broadway express southbound from 14th to Prince holds 3 Rs middays, which terminate at 14st after running express every morning rush hour to get to this location. In the afternoons they run lite to Whitehall and go in service on the middle track (and head Queensbound). This is a remnant of the old <N> service.
Nights + weekends the southbound Broadway express is home to Ns and some Qs.
City Hall lower, during middays, holds 4 or more Rs which go OOS at Canal in the AM, in service there in the PM (from/to Queens).
Until I believe very recently Qs were stored at 2nd Ave middle tracks on the F during middays.
The middle tracks at 200st on the 8th ave IND are used for midday and possibly night storage, as are some tracks around Brooklyn Bridge on the Lex.
The tail tracks past Euclid are used for train storage, all four, nights + weekends.
9th ave lower (Brooklyn) may be used for train storage, I know something goes down there because the rails are usually shiny.
One track at 86st and 95st on the R in BK are used for night train storage.
Prospect Pk, the "southbound local" track stores the extra shuttle train.
There is a small yard at Rockaway Park which only holds a few work trains and the five Rock Pk to Columbus Circle trains (sometimes a 6th A is there). Extra shuttles use it as well.
"The Broadway express southbound from 14th to Prince holds 3 Rs middays, which terminate at 14st after running express every morning rush hour to get to this location. In the afternoons they run lite to Whitehall and go in service on the middle track (and head Queensbound). This is a remnant of the old service."
(1). R trains don't run express to 14th. Some Southbound N and R trains terminate at Whitehall. Then they run light to Canal where they can lay-up on City Hall Lower level.
(2). Trains only use that express track right now because City Hall LL is presently Closed (trackwork). It will re-open.
Thankyou for this valuable information, you have helped me immensely.. any more info would be much appreciated!
Speaking offf lay-ups. What is or was the purpose of a lay-up track on the southbound side between 174-175 and 170 street stations on the Concourse line? It's never in use or was it?
It was built in anticipation of relays north of 161st/River which is where Junkee Stadium is located. I *have* seen a train laid up there on rare occasion when I worked the Concourse line but it has a path across all three tracks to the uptown local leading to it. I imagine at one time, they were planning to turn trains around at 167th.
For you information and interest, today, March 1 the first electric train ran in Sydney, Australia, between Sydney and Mortdale and Oatley, 75 years ago.
This Saturday, March 3, one of the cars in the first train and now preserved will join with others to re-create the first runs. The car is single-deck C 3102 preserved in operating order by operator Cityrail.
Another train with single/double deckcars, built 1955-65 will also run with two single-deck motor cars and two double-deck trailers, one T 4801 the first such car in Australia.
Just before 7th Avenue going Southbound on a D/Q, for about 5-10 feet just before the platform begins, there is a huge opening from celing to ground which shows exactly how close you are and how you are surrounded by IRT trackage. At this point, you are at the same depth as the 4/5 and if you look through that hole, you will see tunnel lighting on another tunnel, my guess is that's what that is. Now, I haven't seen a train yet, but what else could be there?
When you are standing on the 7th Ave. platform for the D train your standing above the #4 express tracks. They squeezed the two tracks of the D on top of the IRT express tracks and between the IRT local tracks. It runs this way between Grand Army Plaza and just before Atlantic Ave.
if you're riding the head car of a q, with a railfan window you can quite frequently catch sight of the irt when you are leaving 7th ave heading into atlantic... it's been like that for 45+ years that i can remember... i always found it mysterious seeing the irt go by...
years and years ago when the brighton express used the current bridge tracks, i would periodically see a train going over the bridge on the other side of the bridge, which also seemed very mysterious...
the mystery of it all is often more satisfying to me than all the info about cars and track maps....
The other side of the bridge in those days went through the Nassau Loop. I hate to say it but.....look at the track maps of the Canal St area pre- and post-Chrystie St tunnel for more info.
The mystery is probably what drove us to be railfans. Hopefully, the answers are as interesting as the questions.
the answers are interesting... but the mystery is more compelling... i used to imagine that the people on the train on the other side of the bridge were condemned and were off to another world...
it is often nice to forget all the answers and just wonder about it all...
Additionally, if you're at the front railfan window of an outbound '2' or '3', just after Bergen Street, the front end of the Manhattan-bound 7th Avenue platform can be seen on the left for a split second.
I was once on a New Lots-bound '3' stopped between Bergen and Grand Army and could clearly see a 'Q' passing by immediately on the left. Thought I was going nuts!
Good story. I think for a lot of us there is a "sanctity" about the 3 original lines being separate, particularly underground. I remember having emotional difficulty when the Chrystie St tunnel opened, thus forever blurring the IND and BMT. The KK line was particularly disturbing because it seemed to go generally south into the city and then back north once it got there. (I excused the BMT excursion onto the IND Queens line, probably because I didn't live there.) I never would have imagined seeing an IRT train from a BMT one, even though they both ran down Flatbush Av. In fact, in the 1960's, there was no free transfer between the two Atlantic Av stations, even though they were technically at the same location, and I never thought there was anything wrong or unusual about it!
The KK was also disturbing in that, after leaving 57th St it ran "south" and by the time it got over the WillyB, it was running "north". The changeover is either at Broadway-Lafayette or at Essex St. I'm not sure which.
IRT and BMT trains actually share the same platforms - at both levels of Queensborough Plaza. Before 1951 (or 1949?) the Astoria line was built to IRT platform clearances, and both IRT and BMT ran trains to both Astoria and Flushing. BMT trains from Astoria and Flushing could only run as far as Queensborough Plaza.
By the way, I knew that sooner or later someone would adopt a handle based on "Sic transit gloria mundi". It was just waiting to happen! Good luck!
Bob Sklar
Actually, thats the 2/3 trains that you see. The 4/5 are beneath the D/Q.
Here is the Flatbush set up:
Flatbush/NL bound(2/3) (D/Q) (2/3)Manhattan bound
(4/5)
3TM
I am surpised that the TA has never thought to cut a hole in the wall and put in a switch to make moving IRT cars to the B division simpler.
What's funny is that the whole is somewhat there already!
Joe,
No can do:-)
Although old IRT cars run as work trains on the B-division, they could not be used for passenger service due to the large gap between the cars and the platforms. Similarly, BMT cars cannot negotiate the IRT platforms or tunnels due to both width and length.
Bob
True. But connections between the divisions are useful for non-revenue trains.
:-) Andrew
Such a connection at that point would make it easier to switch trains between the Flushing Line and the rest of the IRT. Flushing trains could switch to the BMT at Queensboro Plaza (as they do now), continue along the Brighton line to the Flatbush Avenue tunnels, then switch over to the IRT mainline. It certainly would be easier than doing Flushing/BMT/IND/207th Street or Concourse Yard routing that has to be done now.
I have a question. Is it possible they could expand the 7th Ave station so that the 2/3 stop there too, and there's an accross-the-platform transfer between the 2/3 and D/Q? Due to a somewhat different history, there is of course already an accross-the-platform transfer between the 7 and N.
:-) Andrew
Why bother with the exisitng connections available at Atlantic Av (direct transfer) and Franklin Av (to the S which connects to the D/Q)? I tried to think offhand of similar shared trackage configurations elsewhere in the system but couldn't come up with any. The concept of isolated transfer points seems to have worked so far. Multiple connections via adjacent stations would provide minimal time savings but could be justified if other benefits are possible thru the transfer such as ADA compliance, etc.
Was in Boston yesterday and while awaiting a Red Line subway at South Station, noticed that the subway station walls had a poster of an elevated line running alongside South Station. It ran on the right side of South Station (facing the Station). A two-car train was on the el. What line was this, where were the terminuses (terminii?) and what year was the el torn down?
I transferred at Park Street to the B train. After exiting the underground and turning left onto Comm. Ave., you can see where there was a line that continued straight on Brighton Ave. (I think that was the name of street). I later drove down that street and near an auto parts store there was still some street trackage visible, complete with poles and trolley wire. My cousin thought they de-energized that line about 25 years ago - I'm surprised the MBTA left the line and poles up all these years. What year was it abandoned and where was the outbound terminus?
Thanks.
The elevated running in front of South Station was the Atlantic Avenue El, and was torn down sometime in the 1930s. As for where it went: I belive that in one direction it looped around the "hub" along Atlantic Ave, and eventually joined the Green Line El at North Station (which still exists), and from there the line went to Leachmere. In the other direction, the El snaked down to Washington St where it joined the Washington St El, which was the southern branch of the Orange Line until it was torn down in 1987 or so.
The streetcar line running along Brighton Ave was the "A" branch of the Green Line. It ran down Brighton Ave, turned off onto Cambridge St, and joined Washington St near Brighton Center. The line ran through Brighton Center, Oak Square, Newton Corner, and terminated at the trolley yards in Watertown Square. It went out of service back in 1979 or so. However, the T ran cars down it every Sunday night for at least a decade after that. Only in the last few years has the city taken out the street tracks along most of the route as part of a "neighborhood improvement" program.
The A line went out of service closer to 1972-1973.
Thanks for the information! I kinda wondered why there was B, C, D, and E trains but no A.
Why did the T run cars on the A line on Sunday evenings? To keep the wire polished in case they resumed service? It's a darn shame the service was discontinued because it sure is needed - no way to get around that part of town without a car.
I wish someone wrote a book on the history of the Boston rapid transit system, similar to Big Ed's book on the NY system.
Service was discontinued because express busses on the pike provide a faster ride to downtown than the green line did. After the pike opened there was no longer enough ridership to keep the line open.
Another interesting spot for non-revenue trolley runs is Chestnut Hill Ave. The T uses it to move cars from the B to Reservoir (a small yard). From there the cars can be routed to the C & D.
Mr t__:^)
Some histories do exist.
These two are still in print, and I just picked them up yesterday (I was in Boston myself for a conference). Forgive the capitals - that's how the search data was returned. Both by Arcadia Publishing:
Boston in Motion by FRANK CHENEY & ANTHONY MITCHELL SAMMARCO, ISBN number 0738500879, 18.99
When BOSTON RODE THE EL by FRANK CHENEY & ANTHONY MITCHELL SAMMARCO, ISBN number 0738504629, 18.99
Change at Park Street Under by Brian Cudahy. Out of print, but it does turn up from time to time at train shows.
This one is also out of print, but is being considered for a reprint ....
TROLLEYS UNDER THE HUB by FRANK CHENEY & ANTHONY SAMMARCO, ISBN number 0752409077, $16.99 (Arcadia Publishing)
--Mark
>>>This one is also out of print, but is being considered for a reprint ....
TROLLEYS UNDER THE HUB by FRANK CHENEY & ANTHONY SAMMARCO, ISBN number 0752409077, $16.99 (Arcadia Publishing) <<<
I found this book last summer at the Barnes and Nobel, adjacent to the Boston University campus at 660 Beacon St., north of Kenmore Square Station on the Green line. It was part of a B&N display of regional books. Several of the Arcadia "Images" Series were represented, as well as others, with many books about Fenway Park, etc. (BTW, I went to a BosSox game that night, which is just across the Square and down the street).
The historical pictures selected are excellent; some of the stations and areas that we visited during the "T Party" are shown, which provided a great "then" and "now" perspective.
This is a campus B&N; (#39 on map-scroll to the right), with the lower floors stocked like a regular B&N and the textbooks and supplies on the upper floors. I usually make a point to visit a bookstore such as this, which is large enough to stock transit books (in the absence of a Transit Museum in Boston). Usually bookstores on or near a university campus will stock such titles.
Of course, in Boston, this means there are LOTS of campus bookstores available :^)
Why did the T run cars on the A line on Sunday evenings? To keep the wire polished in case they resumed service? It's a darn
shame the service was discontinued because it sure is needed - no way to get around that part of town without a car.
I have heard three explanations for running cars on Sunday eves:
1. The T was asserting its right of way; if they stopped running cars altogether, then they would lose some rights to run cars there. (Don't ask me about the legalities -- I'm only reporting what I heard.)
2. The T wanted to run cars on the tracks as a test to make sure that the tracks & overhead were still functional in case they were needed.
3. The Watertown trolley barn was also a maintainence shop, and they ran cars needing maintainence down to it for repair.
As far as which explanation is correct: I don't know. However, #1 & 2 seem like conjecture, whereas #3 is pretty likely since the Watertown shop was an important maintainence center. Does anybody here know the answer?
Here is a web page discussing the watertown trolley line:
http://members.aol.com/netransit5/watertown/watertown.html
Clever handle. But it sounds like you think it glorious when illness befalls transit. I sure hope you're not saying you are happy the A line went out of service!
I'm glad you like the handle. It actually refers to the fact that people who love transit systems as much as we do can't be completely normal.
It is always sad when a line goes out of service. I lived in Boston for four years (1972-1976), one of those in Brighton, though closer to CommAv, so I can't say I would have been a regular rider. I did drive on those tracks a lot, though, on Cambridge St from Brighton Av to Washington.
What is "normal" anyway? :O)
When I lived in D.C., I used to drive on the rails embedded in O and P (maybe Q?) Streets in Georgetown all the time. Those 2 streets were still of cobblestone, so it was smoother, and I figured I saved a few minutes of wear on the suspension of my sub-compact. I could only imagine how it must have been to see and ride streetcars on those quiet, tree-canopied, residential streets. Knowing Gerogetownians, most of whome could write a book on the concept that is NIMBY, I was probably the only resident who had any nostalgia about the streetcars, and I wasn't even living there when they were running!
I haven't been there in years. I wonder if those rails are still there. IIRC, buses plied the same routes when I lived there in 1993-1994.
I used to do that on McDonald Ave in Brooklyn before it was totally redone in the '80s.
It wasn't until the mid-90s that the trolley tracks were covered up, AFTER the initial street rehab!
--Mark
The elevated running in front of South Station was the Atlantic Avenue El, and was torn down sometime in the 1930s.
The date I heard was 1940.
I belive that in one direction [Atlantic Ave El] it looped around the "hub" along Atlantic Ave, and eventually joined the Green Line El at North
Station (which still exists), and from there the line went to Leachmere.
No, it joined the El at the junction of Causeway St and Atlantic Ave and joined the El over the Charlestown Bridge and on to Everett via Sullivan Square.
The Atlantic Ave El opened 8/22/1901. Closed 10/1/1938. It was torn down in 1942 for the War effort.
(Was in Boston yesterday and while awaiting a Red Line subway at South Station, noticed that the subway station walls had a
poster of an elevated line running alongside South Station. It ran on the right side of South Station (facing the Station). A
two-car train was on the el. What line was this, where were the terminuses (terminii?) and what year was the el torn down?)
It was an alternate routing for what is now the orange line it stopped service in the late 1930's and torn down during WWII.
(I transferred at Park Street to the B train. After exiting the underground and turning left onto Comm. Ave., you can see where
there was a line that continued straight on Brighton Ave. (I think that was the name of street). I later drove down that street and
near an auto parts store there was still some street trackage visible, complete with poles and trolley wire. My cousin thought
they de-energized that line about 25 years ago - I'm surprised the MBTA left the line and poles up all these years. What year
was it abandoned and where was the outbound terminus?)
Revenue service stopped in 1969 but the line was not abandoned until 1994. The terminus was Watertown and there was a car barn there.
SOURCE: PATH document received 10/2000
82 PA -1c cars...100-181
105 PA-1a cars...600-709
14 PA-2a cars...710-723
39 PA-3A cars...724-769
95 PA 4A cars...800-894
Total cars
a........253
c........ 82
total... 335
Service requirements:
a..220
c.. 75
Allowed Out of Service
a...33
c... 7
Work PA Cars
694.754.761.765.768
K Work cars:1214,1227,1218,1241,1246,1210,1232,1237,1238,1243
Otehr K work cars..1209,1244,1215,1236,1220,1223,1226,1239
So by my calculations there are 4 unaccounted-for PA1a cars (600-709 is "110" you list 105 in service + one in the work car category), and 3 unaccounted for PA3a's (724-769 is 46 cars, you list 39 in service and 4 work cars leaving 3). My notes also show 726 in work service but that might be in error.
And what's the difference between "K Work Cars" and "Other K Work Cars"?
I just copied the info from the sheet given to me by PATH-with no editorial comments--sorry, Dave!
I'm heading to North Carolina in the morning for a quick trip home... wife permitting I'll detour through Wilmington and see if I can find that PATH car I photographed last November and ascertain its number.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have again inspected the PATH car in Wilmington... there is no trace of a number on it... whoever removed the decals did a much more thorough job of it on the number than they did on the PATH logo. As can be seen from the photo it is an A car, which narrows it down a bit, but not a whole lot... it is blue-grey in color which may further identify the series. Beyond that I have no clues.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If it's blue it's been scrapped a while.
I just recently saw a new silver-white-gray paint scheme (not a new scheme I guess, just fresh paint) on a 6xx car the other day. Looks nice. Some cars are also getting revised door switch panels (using a round notched key rather than the old type) with a light on the panel indicating door status for the train.
If it's blue it's been scrapped a while.
Anybody got a scrap list for PA cars?
That's part of what we were hoping to come up with here...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just curious - can LIRR MU's potentially run on the IND system? Are the cars too wide/long for the tunnels?
At 85 feet they are too long.
Peace,
ANDEE
And too wide IIRC !! And maybe too high !!
It's not even close. Ever see the picture of the R44s being
tested at Forest Hills? The 75' cars just barely fit in some
spots. 85' cars plus another few feet on the height....forget it.
The State Legislature's Joint Budget Oversight Committee voted yesterday to transfer $15.6 from other transit accounts to pay for extending the HBLR from Hoboken Terminal to the Port Imperial Ferry station in Weehawken, from 34th Street to 22nd Street in Bayonne and from Port Imperial to Tonnelle Avenue in North Bergen. Completion is expected within 5 years.
Story in Jersey Journal.
Hope they're not depending on the feds for any help. Did ya see Shrub's budget proposal from the Congressional address? The U.S. Transportation Dept. is losing the most funding at -11.4%. How much will the leaner USDOT spend on road-building or airline boosting versus light rail? We'll just have to wait and see, I guess.
Shrub's budget allocates nearly 1% of the transportation money to Amtrak.
And another thread says that transit funding is increasing. Are they cutting road money?
Hi. I want to purchase one of the gum machines that were prevalant in the NYC subways in the 50's & 60's. My memory is vague, but they dispensed one chiclet-like gum at a time.
Does anyone out there have one to sell, or know of a way to purchase one?
Thank you.
I used to work with someone who had one in his office. I will try and find out where he works now and see if he wants to sell it.
I was telling my children about these the other day. I believe there were two Chiclets in their own little box. You could get one of four different flavors (each with their own colored box), by sliding a lever horizontally under the appropriate flavor and then pressing the lever downward. The Chiclets would come out below. Good luck finding one.
That's absolutely right good buddy. Exactly. I really missed those gum and peanut machines. When I see those stations empty of all amenities today I really get nostalgic. My dad always treated me to some chiclets. In fact he usually bought me two so I could mix the flavors. I really enjoyed doing that. Well, you brought out some more nostalgia in me. It works every time.
...chiclet-like...
They were Chicklets, manufactured in Long Island City. That did not guarantee their freshness, when purchased for a copper penny.
There was one on eBay recently... although the seller claimed it was from NYC, I have my doubts... there were no takers (the starting bid was $500, IIRC).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm sure you all saw the news. Just to let you know the epicenter was 3.5 miles from my school! OMG! it was SOOOO COOOOL! Ceiling tiles were falling all over the place, the lights went out, it was AWESOME.
Are you useing up phone lines to post this?
i'm glad you're into the rocking and rolling... here's a little music for you...
hey your little file made my broweser shut down.
heypaul,
What ever sound clip you posted, what is it?
Netscape has no plug-in for whatever it is.
it's from the opening credits of "blackboard jungle", which i played into the phone to "pagetalk"...
Lucky it wasn't under your school. You'd have been dead.
For all practical purposes, it WAS under my school. 4 miles horizontal on an earthquake 30 miles below the surface might as well be right underneath...
Excuse Me...! People in that town were devastated by the outcome and all u do is celebrating..! R u some kind of a sick psycho!.. How would u feel if u were in the situation? What the hell is wrong with u?
["Ceiling tiles were falling all over the place, the light went out, it was AWESOME"]-That is sad to hear something like that out of ur disgusting tone.
Ignorant like u really irritate me.
expressm wrote:
"Excuse Me...! People in that town were devastated by the outcome and all u do is celebrating..! R u some kind of a sick psycho!.. How would u feel if u were in the situation? What the hell is wrong with u?"
i understand your dismay at spunky's enthusiasm for what happened... i think he was right there, in school, 4 miles from where the center, when it hit... i've never experienced an earthquake, a tornado, or flood, but there is something awesome and profound in the experience of nature's power... it is a violent reminder that our cozy lives can be disturbed by forces that are not within our control...
in a world of television, movies, controlled high schools,
and the internet, the earthquake that hit was for real...
i believe his response came from a young person's experience of a profound experience... was it a "nice" thing to say?... you can be the judge of that...
is he a psycho??... well i have observed spunky for quite some time, and i can assure you that he is as sane as i am...
spunky has some really serious problems...
I wonder how the premier American Flyer dealer of that region, Ron Leventon, fared. He's in Chehalis. I was planning on calling him in a week or so to buy a few more train items, so I'll check then.
I guess, it's like this:
In an age where no one is allowed to get hurt at all, where wooden roller coasters have five-point safety restraints and where even the XFL gets stopped every five seconds because of behavior that's "too rough", we get set in our ways about having our lives be uninterrupted.
I for one do not believe that a person's life should be continuous, positive, and decresing for all values of X. I think life has loops, asymptotes, holes, and places where it can be divided by zero.
So yeah, having just survived 30 seconds of raw power that is big enough to shake a hugh-jass concrete building up and down, I did think it was cool. It was quite exhiliarating, and a nice reminder of the fact that nature doesn't play softball...
In an age where no one is allowed to get hurt at all, where wooden roller coasters have five-point safety restraints and where even the XFL gets stopped every five seconds because of behavior that's "too rough", we get set in our ways about having our lives be uninterrupted.
Joke's on us, there'll always be "interruptions."
I for one do not believe that a person's life should be continuous, positive, and decresing for all values of X. I think life has loops, asymptotes, holes, and places where it can be divided by zero.
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say, but almost certainly I agree with it :-)
So yeah, having just survived 30 seconds of raw power that is big enough to shake a hugh-jass concrete building up and down, I did think it was cool. It was quite exhiliarating, and a nice reminder of the fact that nature doesn't play softball...
Heh heh, I'd probably think it was pretty cool too.
Sure, a powerless earthquake such as this may have been a thrill, but until you've seen a friend's arm sticking out from under his formerly 20 story apartment building like I did, show a little more tact, and gratitude.
You dare call someone ignorant and you post stuff like this...
>>>Excuse Me...!<<<
>>>People in that town were devastated by the outcome and all u do is celebrating<<<
>>>R u some kind of a sick psycho!..<<<
>>>Ignorant like u really irritate me.<<<
The irony speaks for itself. That post was an excercise(sp?) in ignorance. Each sentence dripping with bliss. Go back to school junior, but before you go, take this info with you. Someone living in Seattle said FEW (in the area of less than 10) buildings were leveled, he was driving at the time and didn't even know what happened, and he was at the gym 20 minutes later! He said the media blew it out of proportion as media types always do and it was just a monor blip on the local radar screen. So Spunky can laugh and say what he wants about it. He survived. That's the best type of attitude you should have toward harmless events like that.
How dare u to judge me!
>>>That's the best type of attitude you should have toward harmless events like that<<<
Yeah, Few buildings had leveled.
But, Thank god there were no reports of serous injuries or deaths.
And thank god that the quake in Seattle wasn't as serious as the quake Taiwan suffered last year.
If that happened, I'm sure, u and spunkly wouldn't be so happy about it.
And what is school Junior?
Checking your spelling.
Was everybody there was OK? Thank GOD that you still Alive. "Oh oh oh Staying alive, Staying alive. Oh oh oh Staying alive, AAAAAAlive."
Dominick Bermudez.
yes, one week after the quake everyone is still alive.
Thank god. You are lucky to sitll be alive.
Dominick Bermudez.
Why is he lucky? Unless you're one of those people who goes around telling people they should be thankful for their life, then what your saying is a total waste of time (it would be anyway).
Nobody died in this earthquake!
I spoke with Ron Leventon, the American Flyer dealer in Chehalis, yesterday and he said they came through the earthquake OK.
I will be on the march episode of Transit Transit. I met Mrs Nora basset, the reporter when she and the TT crew came to the opening at the Transit museum. I am a volunteer for the museum and they asked me what I was doing there. Then she asked me on TV, do I plan to work for NYCT? I was like I hope to be a Motorman.
Shouts to Pelham bay dave!. I guess alot of Railfans are on TT every now and then.
By the way U can know its me because I have my E Train shirt on and my F Train hat on. All the Railfans and people there called me the Queens boulevard express guy, and the Queens IND guy. LOL
Well I've been on Transit Tranist,well at least a picture of my backside. Closing credit shot up at Shoreline as I operated 775, some say it is my best side....
The lake shore limited is delayed when I visit south station. Could anyone give me a reason why the lake shore limited is delayed?
It's Amtrak, what did you expect?
+3 hours is common on the Late Sure Limited.
I've heard it called The Late Sore Limited
The Lake Shore Ltd. competes with freight trains and runs on their trackage, mostly CSX Transportation. CSX gives preference to their trains, which make them money. Amtrak is a nuisance, and no manner of legal mandate will ever make CSX, NS, or any freight railroad give preference to passenger trains in lieu of freight trains, unless someone figures out how passenger revenue can outweigh freight revenue. Sure, Amtrak pays CSX for the right to operate on their lines, but it's a pittance compared to their core business. After all, it is government money, no matter what it says in the leger. One off-schedule freight train throws Amtrak's schedules out-of-whack for that line, and, in fact, has a ripple effect on the whole system, similar to the airlines' hub and spoke system but not as keenly felt because, God knows, there are a helluva lot more air trips than train trips serving the travel market. And most of us know from our reading that freight railroad schedules are a suggestion at best. CSX would rejoice if Amtrak, MARC, and VRE were off its rails. They're only there by the grace of Congress and the state legislatures. I don't care how many passenger rail conferences there are, or how many pretty words are uttered by Class A CEOs, Amtrak is a pain in their ass. Imagine someone coming into your office every day at, say, 3:15 in the afternoon with a warrant in hand dictating their perogative to use your computer for a half-hour to allow those unable to afford a mainstream internet account to send email messages, without you or your company having any choice in the matter. If the feds were to try to do that at my company, they would be laughed out the door.
Until there are designated passenger-only right-of-ways, any Amtrak train running on freight railroad tracks will rarely be on time.
Exacerbating the problems with the Lake Shore is the fact that the ill-effects of the CSX takeover of Conrail are still being sorted-out. Competition with freight trains and infrastructure-based speed-restrictions are actually built into the Amtrak schedules, so, imagine, if there were dedicated passenger right-of-ways, how much better those schedules would be. You could have Acelas everywhere, and doing the 180mph they're supposed to.
The priority given to the owner of the ROW also affects commuter services. Amtrak has the ROW on the Northeast Corridor line -- guess whether Amtrak or NJT gets held up? Metro North has the ROW on to New Haven -- opposite result.
Also, on the Lake Shore Limited, the CSX track upstate is not exactly well maintained.
Also, on the Lake Shore Limited, the CSX track upstate is not exactly well maintained.
It's not? Is this a recent thing? When I rode the Late for Sure Limited upstate before CSX took it over from Conrail, we made very good speed (for freight trackage anyway).
Well at least in Conrail Days the Chicago Line was one of their premier freight routes.
It's all one big mud pump now
It's all one big mud pump now
Nothing's changed. I took the Lake Shore Limited from Chicago to NY in May 1971, right after Amtrak was born, and it was 3 hours late.
I had a fun experience on train 64 (the Maple Leaf) once, going from Utica to Poughkeepsie. It was at least an hour and a half late showing up, the cafe car was out of stock before I got on the train, we lost more than an hour running between Utica and Albany waiting for other trains to get out of our way, everything at the Albany-Rensselaer station was closed, I had to listen to two dozen people say "I'm never riding a train again; next time, I'll take the bus!" (from Buffalo???), and the train arrived in Poughkeepsie more than three hours late. More than three hours late, and the trip's only supposed to take three hours. Moral of the story: never board an Amtrak train on an empty stomach.
Or pack a lunch.
Often the trains from Florida arrive in NY from 30 minutes to 2 hours early. The announcer at NYP stresses the word early several times during the arrival announcement. I think it is because at DC, Philly, and other stations it did not take as long as expected to unload the baggage, passengers, mail, etc.; and since those stops are discharge only they don't have to wait for the appropriate time.
Often the trains from Florida arrive in NY from 30 minutes to 2 hours early.
The timetables are padded between DC and NYP to improve the on-time average.
I would think the time is made up below DC. I took a train from FL to DC once. We stopped in Jachsonville for at least an hour to link up with another train, then again in SC for about 3 hours because the baggage car caught on fire. All they said was "Technical difficulties," but if you looked out the window you could see we were surrounded by firetrucks. Anyway, we still arrived in DC on time.
As is The Crescent..I believe Amtrak has a much better relationship with NS than it does with CSX.....And,yes those schedules,especially northbound, are pretty well padded....
Delays or no delays, I wonder why there isn't more of that serivice. Buffalo and Rochester would bennefit from more connections to cities like Erie and Cleveland, which are much closer than New York City. I used to wonder that when I took the train to and from school at Buffalo.
:-) Andrew
I'm writing another story and I need some information. Can someone please give me a popular morning train from Ronkonkoma and would arrive at Penn Station around 8:15? It must be 1 seat ride. Info I need includes the train #, times, how crowded it is when people A) first get on at Ronkonkoma and B) b4 it arrives at Penn Station, what equipment it usues and what station stops it makes.
I also need the same info for a train from Penn TO Ronkonkoma that leaves c. 5:30. Also can someone describe the Ronkonkoma station and the state of parking there?
WASHINGTON, DC, February 28, 2001 – The American Public Transportation Association (APTA) applauds the Bush Administration’s proposal to increase federal transit funding by $486 million, to $6.7 billion in Fiscal Year 2002.
"The proposed increase in federal transit investment continues the upward trend that has resulted in a more than 21% increase in transit ridership over the past five years, with 9.4 billion trips taken by Americans across the country in 2000," said APTA Chair Ronald J. Tober.
"Balanced investment at the federal level will ensure that our transportation system fully supports the priorities outlined by President Bush in his address to the Nation last night, and will help the economy continue to grow," said APTA President William W. Millar.
Millar also noted, "We are pleased that the President has honored the funding guaranteed under the landmark Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century (TEA 21) and will work with Congress and the Administration to enact the fully authorized amounts."
--APTA Press Release
Well, he did approve state funds to preserve the Chicago-to-San Antonio Amtrak line in Texas four years ago, so he does have a better record on transportation as governor than some of his fellow Republicans in Texas do. They baiscally fought and killed the Austin and San Antonio light rail lines, but those battles were focused on area bond issues and never got up to the state level (since the state government in Texas meets for only five months every two years, unless a proposal is in the pipeline in Austin at that time, it has to be handled locally or it will sit on the back burner for the next 43 months)
How much does New York get? Republicans, remember, are against big government...for people who are not like themselves. Unless Bush decides to make a play for New York in 2004, having him spend more on ANYTHING is probably bad for us.
Pataki's re-election bid, and who runs against him, probably is the key to what kind of funds NYS gets, while the mayoral election will probably be the key to what kind of funding the city gets.
I'm betting the Bushies and the GOP in Washington would have more of a passion to see Pataki defeat Andrew Cuomo -- both because of his dad and because of his actions as HUD secretary under Clinton -- than Carl McCall (who most of them have never even heard of). So if it looks like Cuomo is going to be the Democrats' nominee, expect NYS to get some more transit $$ from Washington next year and expect it to be most funneled into LIRR and Metro North projects if Mark Green or someone else considered a partisan Democrat is elected mayor. Pataki will want to spend the money where it can get him the most votes, and that's in the suburbs (even Chappaqua).
If the new mayor turns out to be someone who doesn't necessarily support Pataki's re-election but tacitly agrees to keep a low profile during the gubernatorial election (easier to do if there's a nasty Cuomo-McCall primary fight), then the city could get a few more transit bucks tossed its way by the MTA board as a way of paying back hizzoner.
Well New Yorkers already have proved their political stupidity by electing that filthy lying carpetbagger to the Senate. If they are dumb enoough to put Green in the Mayor's chair and little Cuomo in the Albany seat, then you deserve whatever crap you get. Cuomo? You saw what his father did to New York. Hell the New York tourist association was headquartered in Pennsylvania because of the oppressive taxes in their own state. His son is a chip off the old block, and what needs to be said about Green that has not been already been said----that he is a dork of the first order. Well wake up New Yorkers and smell the freeking coffee. One major mistake is enough.
Well New Yorkers already have proved their political stupidity by electing that filthy lying carpetbagger to the Senate. If they are dumb enoough to put Green in the Mayor's chair and little Cuomo in the Albany seat, then you deserve whatever crap you get. Cuomo? You saw what his father did to New York. Hell the New York tourist association was headquartered in Pennsylvania because of the oppressive taxes in their own state. His son is a chip off the old block, and what needs to be said about Green that has not been already been said----that he is a dork of the first order. Well wake up New Yorkers and smell the freeking coffee. One major mistake is enough.
I can't figure it out myself. NYC voters (those from the 'burbs and Upstate are somewhat more enlightened) specialize in disgracing themselves each election. One possibility is that New Yorkers are simply below the national average in terms of intelligence. There's some evidence to support that position; for example, when states are ranked by their scores on nationwide academic tests such as the SAT, New York is usually quite low. And if you look at the ... the things being churned out by NYC schools, you'll see what I mean.
Nevertheless, I don't think the reason for NYC's political ignorance is that city residents have low I.Q. scores. No, the real problem is that way too many of them are hopelessly naive country bumpkins who are too thickheaded to realize that the world doesn't stop at the Hudson. Nowhere else can you find hordes of people who think they're oh-so-sophisticated because they can eat sushi with chopsticks, name the 25 principal players in the New York Philharmonic, and have seen at least 10 Broadway shows in the last three months, yet have never driven a car, shopped in a Wal*Mart or supermarket, paid a mortgage or sent a child to a public school. With cretins like that, you get Hillary and Mario.
yet have never...shopped in a Wal*Mart...paid a mortgage or sent a child to a public school.
Such lucky people.
Very Lucky
Peace,
ANDEE
The peanut gallery is heard from.
Snob!!
Should I take that as an insult or a compliment?
I am PROUD to say that I've never been in a Wal*Mart. I did edit Peter's sentence to exclude certain things that I don't find objectionable. Actually, I put in the schools and mortgage thing so Wal*Mart wouldn't stand alone.
My primary beef with Peter Rosa's message was that it assumes that the majority of the electorate is the 7-figure income limousine liberal Upper West Sider. I'm going to go back to that message and register my REAL displeasure with it.
Good for you, Pork.
Take it as a friendly dig Pork. No harm meant, just trying to push your buttons. If the truth be known, however, there are two guys on this site that just piss me off. I'll leave it you to guess who I mean.
yet have never...shopped in a Wal*Mart...paid a mortgage or sent a child to a public school.
Such lucky people.
Lucky? Let's see ... they get to overpay for inferior merchandise at crappy local stores, pay thousands of dollar per month in rent without getting a tax deduction or building equity, and have to sign up their children at birth for $20K/year private schools.
[...and have to sign up their children at birth for $20K/year private schools.]
What do you mean HAVE TO...there is such a thing as public schools. Believe it or not, but some public schools are indeed good places for learning.
BMTman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Like the Arcadia schools where I teach. A great district in Southern California where the teachers are excellent, the students are excellent, and the neigborhood is excellent. But such is not the case in the inner city neigborhoods of either New York or Los Angeles. So I know what Big Pete was saying. And those people he refers to would never send their kids to public schools at any rate. I know of that kind. I've seen them out here and I know they exist in your balliwick. They talk about helping less fortunate students, but they wouldn't think of sending their kids to mingle with "those kind of people". They make me sick, the rotten phonies.
Believe it or not, but some public schools are indeed good places for learning.
Some? I would say MANY.
...and have to sign up their children at birth for $20K/year private schools.
What do you mean HAVE TO...there is such a thing as public schools. Believe it or not, but some public schools are indeed good places for learning.
Right, but these snobbish Manhattan elites would sooner gargle with Liquid Drano than send their precious ankle-biters to public school.
This entire discussion started with you talking about how NY voters can elect Hillary. Why did you talk only about Manhattan elites?
This entire discussion started with you talking about how NY voters can elect Hillary. Why did you talk only about Manhattan elites?
Those Manhattan elites sure didn't vote for Lazio.
Those Manhattan elites sure didn't vote for Lazio.
So what? Were they they the only people to vote for Hillary, and thus caused her to win?
[Those Manhattan elites sure didn't vote for Lazio.]
People in the outer boroughs sure didn't vote in large numbers for Lazio either.
What was there in Lazio to vote for besides his Howdy-Dowdy grin and the fact that he represented people who hated Hillary. He didn't stand for anything. And alot of people also felt that he would be a lackey for Govenor Pataki (opps, sorry about the rythming there).
BTW, Lazio never brought up his ethnicity while he marched in most city-wide parades where most politicos mention the pride in their roots. I think if it had come out that Lazio is in fact NOT Italian he would have done FAR worse among suburbanites than originally estimated.
BMTman
What was there in Lazio to vote for besides his Howdy-Dowdy grin and the fact that he represented people who hated Hillary. He didn't stand for anything. And alot of people also felt that he would be
a lackey for Govenor Pataki (opps, sorry about the rythming there).
Lazio was a poor candidate, no argument from me there, but ANYONE would be better than Hillary. I'm hoping against hope that she gets so enmeshed in "Pardongate" that she'll have to resign. Christ Almighty, that would be one of the brightest days in New York's (and America's) history.
Pete: If you can get a copy of the New York Observer dated February 28, and read the editorial you might get a real eye opener. I don't live in New York but I'm told the NYO is about as liberal a paper as there is in liberal New York. To wit, they denounce the Clintons as low-lifers, apologize to ever supporting them, calls Hillary nothing but an enabling crook, and calls on her to resign. It is loaded with denunciatory material and that it came from a liberal paper long associated with supporting the Clintons through thick and thin, I believe it speaks volumes about that white trailor trash couple. I would recommend to anyone else who would like the lowdown.
Fred, the Clinton s are out, not get on with Subway Talk, not bashing the Clintons.
You're right Bob. I'll let the liberal New York Observer do that. Read the editorial of February 28. It's a doozy. You've been off line for a few days. Are you that budy?
Just busy and fighting the flu
You're right Bob. I'll let the liberal New York Observer do that. Read the editorial of February 28. It's a doozy. You've been off line for a few days. Are you that busy?
Lazio was a poor candidate, no argument from me there, but ANYONE would be better than Hillary.
I don't vote for somebody just to vote against someone else. Now if Giuliani ran, the only problem would be to figure out whether to risk a Mark Green mayoralty.
I say it would be worth it.
I'm hoping against hope that she gets so enmeshed in "Pardongate" that she'll have to resign.
I'd rather that she be expelled. Senators have resigned plenty of times before, expulsions are rare.
Well said Peter. I know what you mean. I'm a public school teacher, and I know some schools are not so good, but the people you refer to wouldn't send their kids to public schools even if they were good.
Beacause Toys R Us started out as a local company (Children's Bargain Town on Long Island) people in the New York area don't realize it's just the toy store version of Wal-Mart. Home Depot and Lowe's are the hardware versions of Wal-Mart and Best Buy is the electronic store version of Wal-Mart.
Outside of a few people would would'nt buy a toy not sold from FAO Schwartz, there are thousands across the region who flock to Toys R Us come the Christmas holidays. But there's a certain pseudo-snobbish attitude among certain people who disdain the idea of ever going to Wal-Mart because it's not `elite' enough.
Philosophically, if you want to boycott it because of its non-union stance fine, but when a Toys R Us, or a Barnes and Noble, arrive in an area it knocks out mom-any-pop stores the same way Wal-Mart does, because they're cheaper (though one stop at the Starbucks in B&N and you blow your retail book discount).
As far as the NYC voters go, I found the most amazing recent thing the results of a poll this week saying that after all that's gone on in the past six weeks, 47 percent of New Yorkers still want to see Bill Clinton run for mayor. He's both too smart and too egotistical to want the job -- try to imagine Clinton having to go to former underling Andrew Cuomo in 2003 asking for money for the city's budget -- it ain't happenin' dude -- but you get the feeling some people would follow Clinton as far as Jim Jones' or Marshall Applewhite's followers went with them.
If that is the case J I'm afraid that New York City voters are even dumber than I thought. Perhaps there are enough smart ones to keep that cretin Mark Green out of Gracie Mansion, and that creep Andrew little Cuomo out of Albany. We can hope.
Interesting that you're so 'hot under the collar' regarding NYC politics yet you haven't lived here in almost half a century....:-O
Fred, might I sugguest you start your own website called www.nycpoliticsbyacalifornian.org???
BMTman
As for the first part of your post regarding my feeling about NYC politics, just figure that I don;t suffer fools lightly and New Yorkers have been fools in some of the people they have elected. You can name one now and if she doesn't make you ashamed you beyond being ashamed. As for the second part, well, who knows?
Howdy guy ... this will be my one and ONLY one comment on our new Senator - if she's a shark or a *itch, well she's OUR shark or *itch and so far, she's impressing this upstate republican. Why? Well, the unemployment rate upstate continues to climb to an average of more than 8% while more and more factories and other jobs go away. Mind ya, this is after nearly 8 years of biz-friendly George Paturkey and Joey Bruno (both affiliated with the correct party as you see it) and the devastation upstate just continues to get worse than the glory days of Abe Beame down in the chitty.
We pay 13 cents a kilowatt hour (which I believe trumps the worst of California's crisis prices every day here) for electricity and I work for a computer software manufacturer that has to do business on 36k modem dialups because that's all there IS up here. Imagine that! A "high tech company" having to operate with fax modems because a T-1 line HERE costs more per month than our entire profits ...
Hillary is the first to recognize these problems (our repubs including candidate Lazy-Oh still deny these realities) and keep telling us that they're going to bring upstate a shiny new "chip plant" ... we'll forget about Intel, we can't even get FRITO-LAY to move in here ... so far the lady's got the right issues and has already introduced a bill that if passed, might actually DO something for upstate. If this is the case, then the solid upstate republican block may vote "wrong" next time as they did this time for Hillary given that Lazy-Oh was just such a clueless loser.
But if she's a shark, she's OUR shark and she does seem to know who she's working for. I'll take that over photo-op politicos any day, especially those shouting "recession" in a crowded economy. No offense bro, but Hillary needs to prove herself like any New Yorker. I suspect she will succeed and so far, I admire what I'm seeing.
Again, this is my one and ONLY one comment on this out of my desire to play by the rules here and avoid any further political nonsense.
Selkirk: Well said. I don't like her at all, as you know, but you make a compelling argument and I admire your grit and point of view of why you support her. I can live with that. I also appreciate it that you didn't flame me while about it. You were a gentleman and made a strong defense for her. What I can't understand is why industry will not go to upper NY state? The country is picturesque, the people are pretty well educated, and there is room. It seems very strange to me. Anyway, please, not little Cuomo. He loves to spend other people's money just like his eloquent, but wet behind the ears father. Have a great weekend.
Thanks! Hillary has her four years ahead of her, we'll see how she does. When Al D'Amato stopped delivering the goods and made an ass of himself, he got his as well. And so it goes. Bad politicians are like dead light bulbs or diapers. Sometimes they need changing. We'll see.
Upstate has languished because of the dynamics of New York politics where the majority of the elected are from the general downstate area. It's expensive down yonder and the assumptions are that those of us up here in the woods take home just as much money as folks downstate. The costs of doing business are the same up here and the infrastructure is non-existent. Add to that the lack of technical education (which is what attracts industrial jobs) and you have a generally undesireable work force in technology. NYS has a BOCES program intended for technical education but there's no technical courses of any significance and BOCES acts more as a facilities administrator than an educator. This is part of it, but the insane utility rates and poor service coupled with the general costs of doing business in New York is the killer.
And as to Andrew Junior, no way. I'm planning on doing whatever I can to help Carl McCall get elected. Now there's someone with a clue as to how both update and downstate work and can tell the difference. We've all had our fill up here of Paturkey doing nothing but running up our bills even further than Padre Mario ... I think the energy crisis George's (ahem) "leadership" has given us will help the voters decide next time around. Once again, we'll see. Paturkey's had his 15 minutes. :)
Carl Mc Call sold Mike Bragman down the toilet, Between McCall and Paturkey, I'll vote for Paturkey McCall's GARBAGE He Will get NO SUPPORT from Central NY
"Hillary has her four years ahead of her,"
Is that a subtle reference to the possibility that the ex-first witch will run for the Whitehouse? I doubt that she will. If she planned to return, she would have left the furniture.
When one considers all the guff you have to take in that building, can't say I'd blame her for wanting to pass on the opportunity. One of the nicer things about being a congresscritter or senator is that unlike governors or mayors, you don't have to provide SERVICES, just maneuver that magic wand and be able to say the word "impeachment" without giggling. :)
If she planned to return, she would have left the furniture.
I don't blame them for taking the furniture. I'm sure that the Bushes would want new furniture anyway, instead of furniture soiled by Slick. :-)
Why, Pork, sometimes you're wise beyond your years.
Don't give up on Pork. I've gotten mad at him two or three times, but each time I forgive him and call him a valued colleague. He is an allright guy and he's way smarter beyond his years.
Not so Dude. That witch is brazen enough to steal and then try to go back to the scene of her disgrace and pilfer some more. She can save her energy. She will never be elected President. The rest of the country is not as dumb as those New Yorkers who sent her to the Senate.
A McCall-Cuomo primary battle will create problems for Hillary, and a lot of other area Democrats, since both candidates draw from core support groups in the Deomcratic Party, and if you openly back one, you're going to tick off their supporters. The nastier the race turns out to be, the bigger the problem.
As for whether or not the missus is going to run for president, because of her core support groups in the Democratic Party, Terry McAuluffe's place at the head of the DNC, the absence of any strong candidate on the left of the party right now and the fact that both the Democratic and Republican primary elections tends to draw out the ideologues in higher numbers, Hillary really won't have to decide until sometime in mid-2003, which will give her a longer time than other Democrats to see how Bush's numbers look before deciding.
And as for all the negative publicity she's stuck with right now, just let one Supreme Court judge retire or die, and the slate will be wiped clean, because that will be a far more polarizing battle than the current tax cut fight is and all the pardon stuff will go out the window if she emerges as one of the leaders of the "Stop (insert anti-abortion judge's name here)" movement.
And Hillary would still beat Lazio if the election were held tomorrow. New Yorkers(and I am one) are either dumb or just plain "asleep at the switch."
Carl M.
Not really. The Republicans shot themselves in the foot by putting a "Howdy Dowdy" candidate up against Hillary -- who despite what you might feel about her personally -- is a formidable debater and at least had a grasp of the issues, something that was sorely lacking with Mr. Geez-Whiz Lazio.
BMTman
At least your republican candidates get more than 15% of the vote.
Beacause Toys R Us started out as a local company (Children's Bargain Town on Long Island) people in the New York area don't realize it's just the toy store version of Wal-Mart. Home Depot and Lowe's are the hardware versions of Wal-Mart and Best Buy is the electronic store version of Wal-Mart.
Interesting way to put it. But you're right. Superstores like that aren't known as "category killers" for nothing.
Outside of a few people would would'nt buy a toy not sold from FAO Schwartz, there are thousands across the region who flock to Toys R Us come the Christmas holidays. But there's a certain pseudo-snobbish attitude among certain people who disdain the idea of ever going to Wal-Mart because it's not `elite' enough.
Give Wally World's management some credit. They've figured out that the company's aw-shucks-we're-just-plain-folks atmosphere probably attracts more shoppers than it drives away. Personally, I could care less about atmosphere; if a store has what I want at the best price, I'm satisfied. But apparently many people think differently. My only complaint with Wal*Mart's corporate philosophy is their refusal to sell CD's with those ridiculous "parental advisory" stickers. But that's a minor point.
Keeping things a bit more on-topic, I suppose one of the reasons why Toys R Us is more accepted in the NYC area is the fact that they've got many stores located in transit-friendly locations. Wal*Mart, it should go without saying, does not, though as I've said before that's likely an outgrowth of their store design and siting standards rather than reflective of any deliberate anti-transit bias.
Philosophically, if you want to boycott it because of its non-union stance fine, but when a Toys R Us, or a Barnes and Noble, arrive in an area it knocks out mom-any-pop stores the same way Wal-Mart does, because they're cheaper (though one stop at the Starbucks in B&N and you blow your retail book discount).
Barnes & Noble has gotten some criticism for driving small independent bookstores out of business, criticism which I believe is largely unjustified. You're right, however, about Toys R Us - who laments the loss of the neighborhood toy stores?
As far as the NYC voters go, I found the most amazing recent thing the results of a poll this week saying that after all that's gone on in the past six weeks, 47 percent of New Yorkers still want to see Bill Clinton run for mayor. He's both too smart and too egotistical to want the job -- try to imagine Clinton having to go to former underling Andrew Cuomo in 2003 asking for money for the city's budget -- it ain't happenin' dude -- but you get the feeling some people would follow Clinton as far as Jim Jones' or Marshall Applewhite's followers went with them.
I rest my case.
My point about the other box stores was that New Yorkers are more comfortable with mega-retailers like Toys R Us and Barnes and Noble because they're local, long-time businesses. But to people in Chicago, Los Angeles, Dallas, etc., they're the `dread' foreign invaders that took away business from their local stores beginning in the 1980s.
I think the CD policy is pretty stupid also, and there's no question that there are legitimate concerns about things like zoning and community disruption if a 195,000 square foot Supercenter parks its carcas in your neighborhood. If that's a problem, or if you don't like Wal-Mart because of it's union stance, or if you don't like it because of it's lack of community involvement, fine, don't go there. But if you don't go there because of the fact that it's one of those tacky `discount' places only the hoi polloi frequent, then don't go to B&N, don't go to Toys R Us, don't even think of going to that K-Mart on Eighth Street, and don't shop at Best Buy or Circuit City either if you want to be intellectually consistant.
A lot of people in New York recoil from Wal-Mart mainly because of its roots -- a discount store coming out of flyover hick country in Arkansas -- but the same people elected a Senator from flyover hick country and are apparently enraptured with the idea of a electing mayor from flyover hick country. Go figure...
Wal*Mart is different from all of those stores because it has urban locations and mall locations. ALL Wal*Marts are homogenous boxes in the middle of a huge parking lot.
All of those stores even have urban boxes, box stores with parking lots in otherwise urban locations.
"But the same people elected a Senator from flyover hick country"
she's from Chicago she just lived in Arkansans for 20 years.
And she also spent a long spell on the board of directors of the anti-union Wal-Mart, which I doubt a Chicago pol would have done, let alone one from New York State.
She may not have been born in Arkansas, but her actions definitely make her an honorary native daughter.
Barnes & Noble has gotten some criticism for driving small independent bookstores out of business, criticism which I believe is largely unjustified.
I'll have to disagree with you on this one, Peter. B&N has engaged in predatory practices at the wholesale distribution level that rival those of GM, Firestone, et al under the guise of National City Lines. The late Charles Kuralt's brother Wallace, owner of The Intimate Book Shop (a small chain that was based in Chapel Hill, NC) was one of their victims. They would delay shipments to him and other independent booksellers until after the books had been on sale in their own stores for a week or two, and charged wholesale prices that were higher than the retail prices in their own stores.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm not flaming anyone or responding to anyone in particular, just stating something...
This isn't PoliticoTalk. I know there are those with good political commentary and those with 3rd grade level comprehension of politics. As much as I enjoy a good political debate, the smart always seem to rile up the idiots, and vice-versa and that's how we get flame wars. So please, PLEASE! No more politics on the board. I like this place. There's nothing else like it on the net. There are thousands of places where you can bash Clinto are call NY voters dumb. This IS NOT one of them! THIS IS SUBTALK! So please everyone, let's get back on track (pun intended).
Well, since the threat began with Paul's post about the APTA press release on Bush's transportation budget, it was a thread that began in politics, and has since also mutated into a disussion about box store retailers -- which is actually even more off-topic than the political debate.
Politics is always going to work it's way into the board, probably even moreso with the mayoral election coming up. So long as the politicians control the MTA's pursestrings it's ineveitable the threads will end up on the board. But I understand where you're coming from about the threads degenerating into "you're one" "your another" type posts.
I agree. BUT, I resent the fact that someone can come on this board and attack via namecalling a friend and fellow SubTalker. THAT's totally uncalled for whether the subject is on topic or not.
Civility is not the strongest suit for one particular SubTalker who lives on the 'left coast'. He almost always gets riled up and name calls at the drop of a hat. Maybe he should be ignored? I might have to try that angle in the future. But he has got to 'grow up' and handle himself in a more civil and temporate manner if he does not want to get 'flamed' by others at this board. What goes around comes around, as the old saying goes...
BMTman
It depends who you're talking about concerning civility. I have no problems with Dude, Pete, Brighton Beach Bob, Big Ed, BMT Jeff, Hot Lunch, or a host of others. But you have a friend who likes to make snooty remarks and as long as he does I'm going to respond to his assinine posts. The Bronx as one whole city, and the other boroughs tossed out into the ocean. You call that anything but nonsense? He suggested that and I didn't want to let it go, ok? You read my posts to others and you'll find nothing of the sort of incivility you accuse me of. Just that one off the wall friends of yours with that silly and stupid peace signature======after he lampoons everyone. I'll tell you what. If my posts bother you so much, kill file them. Chances are you'd get bored and would be tempted to find out what this left coast animal is up to. Tell your buddy to cool his sarcastic answers and I'll cool mine.
The Bronx as one whole city, and the other boroughs tossed out into the ocean
I think that was a joke.
since when was jersey on the left coast
>>> people in the New York area don't realize [Toys R Us]'s just the toy store version of Wal-Mart <<<
That is not really true. Prior to Toys R Us there were no local toy stores. There were toy departments in department stores. What Toys R Us did was to provide a wider selection of one type of item, toys and games. As such it became a specialty store more than a discounter. I have not been a toy buyer for several years, but price was not what brought me to Toys R Us when I did shop for toys, and I was not even aware that prices there were lower than at department stores (if they were). I went there for convenience because I thought I would find all the toys I needed at one place and one time.
With WalMart, the problem is that price seems to be the only thing that is important. My perception is that better quality merchandise which can be found at main stream department stores such as Macy's is not there at WalMart. The real complaint about WalMart is when they come to town, they drive out of business the stores which have the full selection from cheap to expensive and leave only the possibility of purchasing cheap goods. The other problem is their tendency to censor the content of tapes and CDs they sell. (Same with Blockbuster.)
Although Barns & Noble (and Borders) are driving out independent booksellers, they seem to keep a good selection of books, and there is not a question of quality of the product. Crown Books, an earlier discounter was more of a problem because it had only a relatively small selection of best sellers sold at discount prices, taking away the bread and butter of independent book sellers without providing a wide selection.
The Home Depot and other big home improvement stores are doing to hardware stores what supermarkets did to mom & pop grocery stores. It may be sad to see the little guys go, but that is progress.
Tom
Whaddya mean "prior to Toys-R-Us there were no local toy stores???
I remember all sorts of local toy stores around New York City when I grew up there in the 1960's. And all sorts of local ones out here in California since then.
What about FAO Schwarz? I know, that's just for rich yuppies, and now they, too, have spread out across the country (they have units in San Francisco, Los Angeles, etc.)
I will agree with what you said about Wal-Mart and pricing. Problem is, they sell a lot of pure JUNK. Stuff that wears out or breaks rapidly. Sure they have a bigger quantity of selection, but the quality is NOT there. I try to avoid shopping in Wal-Mart just because of this -- though some name-brand stuff I buy regularly I will go there for (household cleaning supplies, etc.)
Crown Books seems to be fading out, out here in California. As you mentioned, they'd have a rather small selection of bestsellers, but most of the rest of the stuff in a Crown Book outlet was the "club book" variety -- simply generic material, the same stuff you'd see on the tables at Sam's Club or Costco (do you even have those in the NYC area?) I could never find anything of interest in a Crown stores, so now I have resorted to Barnes & Noble who seem to have a good selection in their outlets out here. The little one-of-a-kind bookstores seem to sell only stuff that wouldn't move anywhere else.
>>> I remember all sorts of local toy stores around New York City when I grew up there in the 1960's. And all sorts of local ones out here in California since then. <<<
I stand corrected. I was not aware of any toy stores. I guess my parents kept their existence a secret when I was a kid. I always got socks and underwear for Xmas.
Tom
I always got socks and underwear for Xmas.
Hey me, too. I look forward to Xmas because it allows me to change the only pair of underwear I have :)
That is really more than i needed to know
>>>Whaddya mean "prior to Toys-R-Us there were no local toy stores???
>>>I remember all sorts of local toy stores around New York City when I grew up there in the 1960's
The first Toys R Us opened in 1957.
With WalMart, the problem is that price seems to be the only thing that is important. My perception is that better quality merchandise which can be found at main stream department stores such as Macy's is not there at WalMart. The real complaint about WalMart is when they come to town, they drive out of business the stores which have the full selection from cheap to expensive and leave only the possibility of purchasing cheap goods. The other problem is their tendency to censor the content of tapes and CDs they sell. (Same with Blockbuster.)
It's not as if people have no alternatives. Target seems to offer higher-quality merchandise than Wal*Mart at only slightly higher prices. Granted, there aren't as many Target stores, but in most areas people have alternatives. K-Mart seems to be slightly higher in quality than Wal*Mart, although the difference isn't as significant as with Target.
I agree, I don't like Wal*Mart's censorship policy. One would think that sheer business sense would overcome any prudishness on the part of the company's management. Then again, the policy might be intended as a way of avoiding offending customers. Wal*Mart appeals to (a term I hate but can't avoid using here) Middle America, and many people in that population segment have no tolerance for vulgarity.
Actually, the Wal*Mart policy I disagree with most is the way in which they avoid building in urban, transit-friendly locations. No doubt there are significant economies to be realized through having a few store and location models. Even so, they might be pleasantly surprised if they went into urban areas. Surely the company is wealthy enough to be able to take a few risks.
One last thing, Blockbuster does not censor in the same manner as Wal*Mart. They will not carry any NC-17 rated videos or DVD's. While there are a very few "legitimate" NC-17 movies ("Henry and June" is the only one I can think of offhand), in practice the rating means pornography. I can understand why Blockbuster won't carry that stuff.
>>> it's not as if people have no alternatives. Target seems to offer higher-quality merchandise than Wal*Mart at only slightly higher prices. <<<
Actually I include Target and K-Mart in the same category as WalMart, but not as extreme. The full line department stores can only exist and provide better goods by relying on the large volume of sales in their lower priced merchandise. When discounters drain off the sales that used be made in the "bargain basement" of the full line department store, there is not enough business left for the higher priced, higher quality merchandise to cover the overhead. The logical result is that the main line department stores disappear and you are left with a choice of shopping for cheap stuff in discount stores, or expensive stuff in boutiques. Maybe this is just mirroring the increasing gap between the working class and the rich in this country.
>>> One last thing, Blockbuster does not censor in the same manner as Wal*Mart. They will not carry any NC-17 rated videos or DVD's <<<
This does become de facto censorship when movie makers know that if they make a film rated NC-17 it will not be shown in many theaters and the tape will not be carried by Blockbuster. Remember "Midnight Cowboy" began its life and won the Oscar as an X rated film.
Tom
But today,with the same content, "Midnight Cowboy" would probably be an 'R' rated movie.....
Midnight Cowboy was downgraded to R eventually.
Yeah, because of this pervasive mentality that there's eomthing "horrible" about NC-17 movies. A funny thing about blockbuster, though, is thye DO sell pornos that are the equivalent of an NC-17 flick, only they are unrated.
I've been wondering if the censorship [and I beleive a management has a right to follow conscience if such is the case] isn't thoughts of lawsuits if some merchandise is sold to "minors" depending on what and whom some people class as minors, and some rare parent sues them.
This is basically a pretty wide open society anymore but there are exceptions and the firm could be liable?? Or are they?
To cover another post on this thread I'll say for middle America and tolerance for vulgarity that IMHO is history, of course there are exceptions. I've lived in so-called middle America and have found to one degree or another that a
some places have no more "morality" then places people think of as being "sinful" such as PARDON my saying this.."ghettoes" and I mean the "" "". Listen to some country and western..but then again not all.
Of course, all of these "Parental Advisory" labels, and movie ratings aren't enforced by the governement. No recording studio has to label the CDs, no store has to do anything about them.
If my parents sued for something like this (they wouldn't, they're liberal about youth rights), I would sue them in response.
You are WRONG. Stores are coerced into restricting sales of those labeled products by boycotts and overly-conservative idiot moms in long gray skirts calling up and complaining "HOW could you let my teenager BUY something that someone somewhere might deem inappropriate, HOW IN THE WORLD would you give them any FREEDOM to do such a HORRIBLE thing?" The label has caused more harm than good. Before Parental Advisory, rappers and rockers walked around saying "bitch" and everyone thought it was edgy. Now, thanks to parental advisory, no rap or rock album can make the charts unless it has that sticker on it, which means seven million fucks. Tipper has worsened the language of the world. Whereby "fuck this fuck that" was the language of only some rappers, now the middle-class white trash rock bands who got whooped for saying "crap" in front of their moms talk like they grew up near the Stillwell terminal. Tipper IS the problem.
Before 1998, nobody was ever carded in a movie theater. Now, even though the MPAA ratings work on no government mandate whatsoever, most movie theaters card.
If I was waiting in line to buy a ticket and saw that underage people were turned away by the labor inefficiency (ticket seller), I'd offer to buy them the tickets.
Of course, I wouldn't be caught dead in a movie theater since the development of the digital video disc, since not only is it much more convenient to watch a movie at home, I don't feel like going some place where ticket collection is more inefficient and labor-intensive than on the MTA (and that says a lot). I don't feel like paying $8-$10 to support the salary of the young ticket seller and the old ticket taker.
Pork, you must have a really big-screen television, in order to be able to find watching ALL your movies on DVD "much more convenient" than the movie theater. While I don't know your preferences, I, and a lot of people I know, feel that certain movies were made for the big screen and lose some - or even a lot - of their interest when shrunk to the television screen, even a "big" television screen. Of course, there are plenty of movies that translate to the small screen just fine, too.
The only problem is resolution. All you have to do to get the big screen effect is SIT CLOSER TO THE TV. Not such a difficult thing to do.
Of course, I wouldn't be caught dead in a movie theater since the development of the digital video disc, since not only is it much more convenient to watch a movie at home, I don't feel like going some
place where ticket collection is more inefficient and labor-intensive than on the MTA (and that says a lot). I don't feel like paying $8-$10 to support the salary of the young ticket seller and the old ticket
taker.
I don't quite see how you can compare the labor efficiency of movie theaters and the MTA. Most theaters, especially the larger multiplexes, operate with what seems to be pretty decent efficiency. Eliminating the ticket sellers in favor of TVM's probably would cause unacceptably long lines. See how quickly the ticket sales take place, human element notwithstanding. Remember that one or two ticket sellers can cover several theaters within a multiplex - the nine-screen multiplex we most often go to generally has just one seller on duty, two during the very busiest times. And the ticket takers serve bascially a security purpose, keeping people from sneaking in without paying. Finally, in most multiplexes there is just one projectionist - usually by far the highest paid employee - to cover all the theaters.
I'm not saying that there's no room for further improvement with movie theater efficiency. The financial troubles besetting many chains, which for the record are caused by overcapacity rather than labor inefficiency, probably will lead to further progress. But clearly, the movie theater industry, indeed like most private sector companies, has made far more efficiency gains than the MTA ever will.
I don't quite see how you can compare the labor efficiency of movie theaters and the MTA. Most theaters, especially the larger multiplexes, operate with what seems to be pretty decent efficiency. Eliminating the ticket sellers in favor of TVM's probably would cause unacceptably long lines.
Not if they have a TVM only for prepurchased tickets on Moviefone, and a card that can be refilled online.
See how quickly the ticket sales take place, human element notwithstanding.
There is one disadvantage to them. The ticket sellers can enforce age restrictions. Of course, they can do it just like on the subway. The turnstile lights up with a particular aspect so the security guard can enforce.
Remember that one or two ticket sellers can cover several theaters within a multiplex - the nine-screen multiplex we most often go to generally has just one seller on duty, two during the very busiest times.
There can be less than one.
And the ticket takers serve bascially a security purpose, keeping people from sneaking in without paying.
That's what turnstiles do.
Finally, in most multiplexes there is just one projectionist - usually by far the highest paid employee - to cover all the theaters.
Well, I wasn't complaining about projectionists. I don't see anything wrong with that.
I'm not saying that there's no room for further improvement with movie theater efficiency. The financial troubles besetting many chains, which for the record are caused by overcapacity rather than labor inefficiency, probably will lead to further progress. But clearly, the movie theater industry, indeed like most private sector companies, has made far more efficiency gains than the MTA ever will.
The predecessors to the MTA have eliminated the ticket chopper and replaced the multiple conductors with just one. And they will DEFINITELY go 100% OPTO and eliminate all station agents in time.
I think all movie patrons should be required to have EZPass.
This will eliminate all labor costs associated with ticket
sales and collection. I like the idea of turnstiles but they
should be of the high (iron maiden) style only. The snack
counter should be replaced with an Automat. The upholstered
seats should be replaced with hard plastic and the bathrooms
must be re-tiled in the IND scheme and lit with bare incandescent
bulbs.
The upholstered
seats should be replaced with hard plastic and the bathrooms
must be re-tiled in the IND scheme and lit with bare incandescent
bulbs.
There's no need to be sarcastic. Up until that you were making sense!
Tipper has worsened the language of the world. Whereby "[deleted] this [deleted] that" was the language of only some rappers, now the middle-class white trash rock bands who got whooped for saying "crap" in front of their moms talk like they grew up near the Stillwell terminal.
Er, why is an upbringing near Stillwell Avenue associated with the use of obscene language? Inquiring minds want to know.
Stillwell TERMINAL
Coney Island isn't the peachiest of communities.
Actually, I think the increase in X-rated language falls into the same category as tounge piercing -- it's just getting harder and harder to piss off your parents nowadays. All Elvis had to do was thrust his hips out in 1956, while the Beatles just had to wear long hair to set people off in 1964. Now that the kids who supported those "radical" moves are parents and grandparents, it's tougher for today's kids to do something non-conformist that doesn't elicit a "been there, done that" attitude from mom and dad.
Ratcheting up the language on CDs, as well as some of the non-politically correct attitudes on some song lyrics are a way to piss off the 40- to 60-year-olds today, the same way they pissed off their parents back in the 50s, 60s and 70s.
I like it.
I think that the current decade shouldn't be called "the zeroes," that conveys a statement of emptiness and worthlessness, as if we are prepared to throw this decade on the ash heap of history come 2010. It should instead be called the "naughties." In additon to a play on the word naught, it shows a complete collapse of conservative moral values, something this country, and this planet desperately needs.
No, actually, the collapse happened in the 90s. We're just following on the heels of that. BTW, don't dis on anti-establishment rock bands, Rage Against The Machine is one of the few current rock bands I can actually enjoy (my musical styles are rap, 70s-80s rock, and swing)
I know. The 90s have been bad for morality and decency (which is good), but we need to go further, and throw off the chains of zero tolerance (except for zero tolerance against the religious wrong).
And I'm the last person to dis any kind of music that's either against the establishment, or is worthy of a parental advisory label (I'd replace the parental advisory with something that doesn't promote enslavement as much).
I think we need to differentiate between good censorship and bad censorship. Here's an example:
BAD CENSORSHIP:
I go to Fred Meyer to buy Outkast's new CD, Stankonia. Due to explicit lyrics, they require me to show my driver's license and prove that I am 17 or over in order to buy it.
GOOD CENSORSHIP: One store, WalMart, decides to only sell edited versions of CDs.
What's the difference? Let me start by saying that I DETEST Wal-mart. I HATE WALMART! WALMART SUCKS! With that out of the way, they have the right to sell what they want. If I want the real CD, I can go to almost any other store and get it for basically the same price. Besides, why would I want to go to Walmart anyway? BUT, i I want the edited version then Wal-Mart is usually the only place that sells it.
My friend and fellow child of the upper-middle-class, Liane, wanted Limp Bizkit's "Chocolate Starfish" CD for Christmas, but her parents would not approve of the 137 times that Fred Durst uses the word "fuck." So I went to Wal-Mart and got her the edited version. You know what? It was HORRIBLE. I walked into a crowded store full of crying children and moms with trailer park haircuts, merchandise on the floor, and believe me I was out of there in a jiffy. At Liane's party I said "you know I had to go to Wal-Mart to get this" to which she responded "Wow, you're braver than I thought."
I detest Wal-Mart. But I don't mind if they want to sell the edited versions of CDs. What makes me ABSOLUTELY SICK is the idea that we are IDing kids when they buy CDs - that my brother or my girlfriend, or even Liane herself (who doesn't turn 17 until this Wednesday) would not be allowed to buy the same CD that I am bumping. When any government censors, that's bad censorship. But if an individual retailer wants to be prudish, I say, more power to them.
one last note; WALMARTSUCKS!
My friend and fellow child of the upper-middle-class, Liane, wanted Limp Bizkit's "Chocolate Starfish" CD for Christmas, but her parents would not approve of the 137 times that Fred Durst uses the word [deleted]. So I went to Wal-Mart and got her the edited version. You know what? It was HORRIBLE. I walked into a crowded store full of crying children and moms with trailer park haircuts, merchandise on the floor, and believe me I was out of there in a jiffy. At Liane's party I said "you know I had to go to Wal-Mart to get this" to which she responded "Wow, you're braver than I thought."
Just curious ... did you actually count the number of times he used it?
"Trailer park haircuts" - now that's an interesting term!
Oh, to keep things on-topic, everyone says that Amtrak trains often are full of screaming ankle-biters. If you've ridden Amtrak, how would it compare in that respect to Wally World?
Oh, to keep things on-topic, everyone says that Amtrak trains often are full of screaming ankle-biters. If you've ridden Amtrak, how would it compare in that respect to Wally World?
Perhaps that's why Amtrak now has "Quiet Cars" on NE Corridor trains. No Cell Phone Yakkers, Screaming kids, or other disturbing things.
There were no obnoxious children on the Maple Leaf last summer, but there was one on the Adirondack who should have been on the receiving end of a roll of duct tape. In all fairness to the child, however, the parent's approach to discipline, such as it was, was far more obnoxious than the child's behavior.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, I did not count the number of times myself...I read that number in two different reviews of the CD, and it seems to match with what songs I've heard off that CD (namely, the songs that I've downloaded off of Napster)
"When any government censors, that's bad censorship."
For the record CD censorship is not informed by the government it is voluntary Tipper was in no official position when she pushed for the ratings.
I have my problem with Crown Books, because the Haft family nearly killed off Safeway back in the 1980s with their hostile takeover effort. The fact that the father turned against his wife and son over control of the company a few years later is part of the reason for Crown's problems.
As for Wal-Mart and its level of quality, the answer is it depends on what you want -- a 64 ounce bottle of Wisk is a 64 ounce bottle of Wisk, a quart of Pennzoil 10W-40 is a quart of Pennzoil 10W-40 and a package of 100 watt GE lightbulbs is a package of 100 watt GE lightbulbs whether you buy it at Wal-Mart or some other retailer, which usually charges higher prices. On the other hand, when I was in San Antonio before Chirstmas, I bought a pair of Wrangler jeans for a pretty low price, but they have to be made of the thinnest denim material I've ever seen. They'll probably either wear out or fade faster than a normal set of jeans, but the price-per-use may end up being the same as a costlier pair.
So long as there are cities with upper scale neighborhoods, there will be a place for stores like Macy's, Bloomingdales, Nordstrom, Dillards, etc., but Sears and J.C. Penney are the ones really getting hit by Wal-Mart, Target and K-Mart (which if they had kept their stores cleaner and developed an on-time inventory plan, wouldn't have gotten hammered by Wal-Mart the way they did in the 1980s and early 1990s).
You can tell people that the big stores like Wal-Mart ship their profits out of town and give little back to their communities, and that letting small stores fail will cost them in the long run, but that's a long-term argument to make, and for peoploe trying to save a buck or two right now, its hard for them to justify paying more, evne if the quality is a little better.
I can't figure it out myself. NYC voters (those from the 'burbs and Upstate are somewhat more enlightened) specialize in disgracing themselves each election. One possibility is that New Yorkers are simply below the national average in terms of intelligence. There's some evidence to support that position; for example, when states are ranked by their scores on nationwide academic tests such as the SAT, New York is usually quite low.
Even the Educational Testing Service (ETS) says that SAT scores aren't an adequate measure of average intelligence, since the sample is self-selected. More people in New York want to go to College, whereas elsewhere one can get by on one's toilet paper (HS diploma). Not to mention the fact that SAT scores are affected by one's preparation for them, socioeconomic status affecting that.
However if you look at other lists, you'll find other conclusions. New York always leads in the number of finalists in the Intel (formerly Westinghouse) Science Talent Search.
And if you look at the ... the things being churned out by NYC schools, you'll see what I mean.
No, I won't. You just take your stupid prejudice against all New York City public schools and shove it. I'm sure that it's oh so much better in all of those suburbs where the students massacre other students.
At least when students brought guns into urban schools, it was because of specific grudges against someone else, and not for random massacring.
Nevertheless, I don't think the reason for NYC's political ignorance is that city residents have low I.Q. scores.
So why mention it? The immaturish need to show how much better you suburbanites are better than urbanites? I don't think that people who choose to live in a WASTELAND are better. Throughout all history, when people vacated the cities, it was a sign of civilization ending.
No, the real problem is that way too many of them are hopelessly naive country bumpkins who are too thickheaded to realize that the world doesn't stop at the Hudson.
These people don't think the world ends at the Hudson. They travel to other cities, and are certainly familiar with other cultures. As opposed to the people in the concentric wasteland who believe that exposure to other cultures is achieved at the local Chinese restaurant (a chain run by white people who've never been to China).
Nowhere else can you find hordes of people who think they're oh-so-sophisticated because they can eat sushi with chopsticks
Not that eating sushi with chopsticks is a product of sophistication, but those in the concentric wasteland (subhumanites) can't claim any kind of sophistication.
name the 25 principal players in the New York Philharmonic
How many people can actually do that? Are you just yearning to be able to understand good music, or do you really think that most New Yorkers actually give a damn about what goes on at Lincoln Center?
and have seen at least 10 Broadway shows in the last three months
Considering how much they cost, nobody attends that many shows. But subhumanites can attend that many movies at the movie theater (the only private industry more labor-inefficient than the MTA).
yet have never driven a car
These Manhattanites you so disdain can afford to live in a place where primary transportation is many times more efficient (workable subways).
shopped in a Wal*Mart
Lucky people. That's all I have to say.
or supermarket
I guess you've never heard of Gristedes or D'Agostino. Small and overpriced but clean and well appointed supermarkets available only in Manhattan.
paid a mortgage
Never heard of condominiums or coops? And never heard of the high rents that people pay (much more than the mortgage on a pod in the concentric wasteland) just to live in Manhattan.
or sent a child to a public school.
Are you British or retarded? Didn't you just show talk about your mythical knowledge of public schools? If what you said was true, how could anybody in New York send their kids to public school?
With cretins like that, you get Hillary and Mario
That doesn't explain the cretins that elected Dumbya.
I can't figure it out myself. NYC voters (those from the 'burbs and Upstate are somewhat more enlightened) specialize in disgracing themselves each election. One possibility is that New Yorkers are simply below the national average in terms of intelligence. There's some evidence to support that position; for example, when states are ranked by their scores on nationwide academic tests such as the SAT, New York is usually quite low.
Even the Educational Testing Service (ETS) says that SAT scores aren't an adequate measure of average intelligence, since the sample is self-selected. More people in New York want to go to College, whereas elsewhere one can get by on one's toilet paper (HS diploma). Not to mention the fact that SAT scores are affected by one's preparation for them, socioeconomic status affecting that.
College attendance rates don't differ all that much between New York and most other states. Surely not enough to account for New York's mediocre performance. And if test preparation and socioeconomic status are important, then New York - a state with higher than average incomes - should do well.
However if you look at other lists, you'll find other conclusions. New York always leads in the number of finalists in the Intel (formerly Westinghouse) Science Talent Search.
Much too small a group to allow any conclusions to be drawn.
And if you look at the ... the things being churned out by NYC schools, you'll see what I mean.
No, I won't. You just take your stupid prejudice against all New York City public schools and shove it. I'm sure that it's oh so much better in all of those suburbs where the students massacre other
students.
At least when students brought guns into urban schools, it was because of specific grudges against someone else, and not for random massacring.
You're going to deny that NYC public schools aren't poor? Sure, there are schools like Stuyvesant and Brooklyn Tech, but they're very much the exception. Oh, and as far as prejudices are concerned, aren't you displaying the same thing by referring to the "massacres" in suburban schools?
No, the real problem is that way too many of them are hopelessly naive country bumpkins who are too thickheaded to realize that the world doesn't stop at the Hudson.
These people don't think the world ends at the Hudson. They travel to other cities, and are certainly familiar with other cultures. As opposed to the people in the concentric wasteland who believe that
exposure to other cultures is achieved at the local Chinese restaurant (a chain run by white people who've never been to China).
Are you saying that suburbanites never travel and are hopelessly unsophisticated? Bzzzt! You're wrong, that just isn't true anymore.
or supermarket
I guess you've never heard of Gristedes or D'Agostino. Small and overpriced but clean and well appointed supermarkets available only in Manhattan.
Those places wouldn't last a minute if they faced any competition.
paid a mortgage
Never heard of condominiums or coops? And never heard of the high rents that people pay (much more than the mortgage on a pod in the concentric wasteland) just to live in Manhattan.
Even with condos and coops, home-ownership rates in NYC are far below the national average. And I think paying thousands a month in rent is crazy - it's money down the toilet.
Are you saying that suburbanites never travel and are hopelessly unsophisticated? Bzzzt! You're wrong, that just isn't true anymore.
I'm not saying that suburbanites don't travel. I'm saying that unlike as you believe, New Yorkers are not sheltered.
And I think paying thousands a month in rent is crazy - it's money down the toilet.
There are people willing to pay that. If pod colonies in the concentric wasteland costed that much, nobody would bother with them.
The only disadvantage of living in Manhattan is the inability to practically keep a car. Mass transit might be more efficient, but there are lots of places where it isn't, and I don't want to be isolated from them.
Hey, don't call me a cretin. I voted for Bush and I'm proud of it. He is going to surprise a lot of people just as he did in Texas. He has his father's basic goodness, but he has his mother's iron. He will get things done, not like your boy Bill who talked a good game but got absolutely nothing done in Medicare, Social Security, education, or military improvement.
If he can tell the rest of the republicans where to stick it, W. will do alright Daddy's personal philosophy was far more LIBERAL than he was allowed to govern and Mommy was really a class act Who knows, maybe W. can save the Republican party. No, Bush voters are not cretins, they are just a little less nauseated by the republicans than the democrats BUT AT LEAST THEY MADE A STATEMENT FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE even if I happen to vehemently disagree with that statement, Be respectful and work to see that more people participate and vote. This is my only response to this thread
Thanks John. But don't get the impression the work is done for GWB. I happen to believe very strongly he has to reach out to Hispanics and African-Americans as he did in Texas, and I believe that next time he will get much more than 38% of the Hispanic vote since he very pro=Hispanic. Blacks might be a tougher sell for him since they seem wedded to the Democrat Party, but he will get more than 9%. He will have to show AA's that he really gives a damn about them.
This implies to me that the funding increase is due to a law already on the books. The APTA prez praising Bush is understandable- gotta play ball with whoever is on the field. He's an oilman, oilmen like cars.
But the point is he could easily have blocked the increase.
Nixon blocked mass transit funding very effectively by simply having Cap Weinberger in the OMB refuse to spend the money.
By making this announcement, he's saying he will support rather than oppose it. He also announced increased funding for Amtrak infrastructure.
Since the conventional wisdom now is that presidental elections are decided in the suburbs (inner cities vote Democrat, rural areas vote Republican), an increase in mass transit funds makes good political sense for Bush, as more cities look at light and heavy rail systems to get away from the highway gridlock suburban commuters have come to dread over the past 30 years.
Overall there are still more trogladite it's-my-right-to-drive-my-car-anytime-and-anywhere-I-want pols on the Republican side of the aisle who think only poor Democrats use mass transit (hello Tom DeLay), but when an ultra-conservative like Richard Vigurre is a major rail backer, that perception is not as accurate as 30 years ago.
Tom DeLay, I despise that man.
I'm glad he didn't become speaker there a case where the reps got it right.
Agreed, DeLay, the name says it all
Peace,
ANDEE
You get more ridiculous by the hour. You sure you didn't get hit with some missile in the head while traversing in your beloved South Bronx?
He has the barest of majorities in Congress. Blocking a mandated increase would have cost him precious politcal capital, and isn't the spin he needs in his first weeks in office. What he isn't doing is pushing for an increase like Gore likely would have.
Further I didn't see anything to say that HE made an announcement, so it's more like some low priority thing a deputy press aide typed up and faxed out. The APTA folks were trying to reconcile transit with his outline for America, implying he said NOTHING about mass transit in his televised speech:
"Balanced investment at the federal level will ensure that our transportation system fully supports the priorities outlined by President Bush "
Which means he probably said some such and such about the need to keep goods and people moving.
Doesn't surprise me. Transit is not necessarily a Democratic thing, no matter what's often said.
The reason republicans tend to be in favor of transit it they come from states that don't need it. How many of the republican states have transit. Georgia Texas Florida Utah no matter how little money you have if you live in Kansas a subway will do you no good.
Dumbya must have offered the President of APTA a ride on a submarine. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
For the first time in my life, I actually got to ride R40 slants on the J train this morning on my usual train (6:16 out of JC), and to my suprise, I got the same set of slants on the trip home (16:30out of Broad)! #4424 and #4408 were the only 2 cars #'s I can remember.
That is HIGHLY unusual.
Yup, one in a million. Watch, I'll never get to ride slants on the J ever again....LOL.
I got to ride an R62A up White Plains Road in August of 1999 (#5 Thru Express). That ain't never gonna happen again either.
Chris R27-R30.
That posting of yours about the Slant R40's on J train. Is the #201,000 posting on subtalk. So lets say.
Hiphip Horway to Chris R27-R30 for his 201,000 posting on subtalk.
Dominick Bermudez.
no one cares about post #201000. there are 1000 every 2 or 3 days.
No it is NOT 201,000 -- it is 201,007. You missed by SEVEN.
Why don't we all just cut this out now before it gets out of control.
I tell ya, Uncle Dave ... it's them damned reality teevee shows that has everyone thinking that if they eat an insect, then you owe 'em a prize. (grin) So ... like ... whaddoo I win for posting the 200,000th message? A free visit from the loogiehawk? :)
And you posted post number 201163!!!
JK.
I must say, it is nice to hear the big numbers, (100,000, 200,000) but I will always want to know the webmaster posted post 201163 on Fri Mar 2 09:23:36 2001.
Big fing deal. Whay do people see the need to waste posts announcing the number of posts there are?
-Hank
The Slant R40's that you got on must came from the L Train. You went on the Slants 2 Times on the J Train. You are lucky baby.
Today must be your lucky day.
Dominick Bermudez.
That is very strange, though I have an even stranger situation every day.
If I go for the F that gets me to school with 20 minutes to spare in the AM and the third F after school I will see the same exact E northbound in the AM at Continental and southbound in the PM pass Van Wyck Blvd. What's so strange? This formula works every day, despite my school schedule being 8:46A-2:00P on some days and 8:05A-1:15P on others.
I saw slants on the "L" in 1993 and have seens them on the "L" since then. Usually you see R-40Ms on the "J" rather than the slant R-40s. Sometimes you might see the R-42s on the "J". Recently they transferred some more Slant R-40s to the Eastern division so you might see Slant R-40s on the "J" more often. BTW congratulations on posting the 201,000th message.
BMTJeff
We rode on a slant R-40 L train last October through the 14th St. tunnel. First time in 30 years for me. I was still picturing BMT standards and R-7/9s as we rolled along.
It is unusual to see the J using the slants car. In fact, I do no that they're from the L. I guess this means that R143 has finally taking over the L lines.
I guess this means that R143 has finally taking over the L lines.
Since the R143 hasn't been delivered yet, I guess you're wrong.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I say that the Slants will be running the J Line when the R-143's come to the L Line.
Dominick Bermudez.
(R-143 has finally taking over the L line)
R-143's is not at MTA right now. There's a photo of one when it's being Bulid in Japan on www.nycsubway.org. About some R-143's are comming sometime by the End of this year.
Dominick Bermudez.
Was just coming down from the crew rooms through the tunnel beyond the station with my class group around 11 or so. Typical 42/40M consists were laid up,and some people were being shown the differences. Right as we reach the platform, the slant pulls up on J1. Both me and he instructor were shocked, but I had ridden one on the Z a few weeks earlier to my old job, so I knew they were surfacing there occasionally. It was only going to Eastern Pkwy for the G.O., so I figured they just yanked an L out of the yard for it (they will often do this). 4442-3 were in the consist also. (By the time it pulled out we were watching it on the control board on the other end of the station.
I'm not surprised slants were on the J. They share a yard with the slants. What's even stranger is seeing R-32 units on the A. A's don't really op outta Pitkin.
Yeah they do. After the PM rush one can see many trains run light from Far Rockaway into Pitkin. In the AM several sets are pulled out and and go into service. I assume some Lefferts trains start/end at Pitking since there aren't any at night.
If you had told me that in 1968-69, I would have agreed with you. Imagine my surprise one Saturday when a northbound A train of R-32s pulled into 14th St. They must have been short on R-10s.
When i got to 1250 Broadway & there were alot of people line up getting ready to get into office. When this lady came out & start calling out for B/O, Condutor, Traffic Checker & STATION AGENT? U say before u got hired for Station Agent & they are not hiring after than but they still hiring Station Agent. I ask the guy who work there & he say MTA still hiring Station Agent. I was suprise that i thought they are not hiring station agent anymore until furture notice. Any way i spent 2 half hour there today talking about what is traffic checker is about & i will get a letter soon to go back 1250 Broadway.
Peace
David Justiniano
www.geocities.com/justin2669/NYCTransiTrans.html UPDATED!!!
Well that's surprising. I was given the impression by those folks that my class was the last one for a while. Perhaps they changed their minds. Surprise, surprise. In a time when Transit wants to put the S/A's outside of the booth as Customer Service Reps and assisting the passengers, they're still hiring. As is, there was supposed to be S/A cuts. What gives?
-Stef
Well that's surprising. I was given the impression by those folks that my class was the last one for a while. Perhaps they changed their minds. Surprise, surprise. In a time when Transit wants to put the S/A's outside of the booth as Customer Service Reps and assisting the passengers, they're still hiring. As is, there was supposed to be S/A cuts. What gives?
-Stef
Well that's surprising. I was given the impression by those folks that my class was the last one for a while. Perhaps they changed their minds. Surprise, surprise. In a time when Transit wants to put the S/A's outside of the booth as Customer Service Reps and assisting the passengers, they're still hiring. As is, there was supposed to be S/A cuts. What gives?
-Stef
Sorry to hear that you won't be a footnote in the history books my friend :-(
Mr t
Is it true that under present routing Q trains sometimes Run up broadway as expresses? I've never seen this done (aside from Manhattan Bridge Re-route, mid 90's)
Very, very rarely I've seen a Q on Broadway. I'm not sure how they get there with the southside MannyB tracks closed. Must be the Montague Tunnel. But the Q is finally coming home to the Broadway Express, hopefully for good, with the bridge-flip this July.
:-) Andrew
OK: As you know, Q trains start at Queensbridge, normal routing is 6th Ave/Bridge/Brighton, however, 4-5 scheduled trains {I believe the schedule is always the same and they go every hour or 90 minutes} start from Queensbridge, and instead use Broadway and Montague. I believe they're trying to rev up the Bway Exp tracks and wash the cobwebs off {not that there are any} so that when they get bombarded by both local and exp Qs as well as Ws in June, they will not show flaws.
This was done when they were working on the interlocking north of 50th St. on the southbound tracks. With the slow order for both Q's and D/B's it held up service so they sent a few Q's down Broadway.
Now there is no more slow order, all Q's go via 6th Ave.
I rode on a rerouted Q up Broadway last October. It was quite a surprise to see it sitting on the express track at Union Square. I jumped on board as fast as I could. It was the good old days all over again, zipping past 23rd and 28th.
There are switches south of DeKalb Ave. from the Brighton line which allow access to the tunnel tracks.
In addition to connecting the 6th Av. local tracks to the Williamsburg Bridge, the TA should have done the following:
The 6th Av express tracks should have been connected to the outermost tracks on the Nassau St. line after Bowery. The connection could be useful in a number of ways: 1. that pesky Manhattan Bridge thing.
2. get more use out of the Nassau Line. 3. Eliminate the M running to Bk., as few people ride it (rush hours it sees some crowds)
Anyway, Canal St. express tracks could be used as a turnaround for the J/M/Z if the B&D were run down that way. Build a scissor (X) switch and use the southbound express platform for M, northbound for express. This link would certainly be more profitable than the present 6th av/Nassau connection.
By "M" to Brooklyn, I take it you mean SOUTH of Manhattan. North of the Willy B Brooklyn-Queens serivice is, of course, the whole point of the "M".
Just busting chops!
:-) Andrew
"North" of the Willy B? I didn't think the Willy B ran like that.
Just busting chops.
Yeah well....Uh you're right. I love how a "northbound" E or F train is going almost due south at Van Wyck Blvd. (and is going southeast along with the "nothbound" G and R for four or five miles.) In fact, the E's "north" terminal isn't much more north than its "south" terminal, if at all.
:-) Andrew
My 8:29am N21 was running late as usual, but managed to make it to Flushing by 9:35am. Got the 7 express, with mainline R36's. 9555 was the lead car number. I notice mainline R36's have square windows that are different than Corona.
Got the 11AM train out of Grand Central.
It was an M-1. The first car was closed, so I got in the 2nd car. The train was in much better shape than the LIRR electrics. It was clean, and had better lighting and clear windows. Also the train looked shinier too.
After a crawl through the many switches at GCT, we entered the Park ave tunnel. It was one fast ride through there, and right on through Harlem on the el, everything was flying by.
Even over the bridges, we flew. In the Bronx the fastest speeds were reached while we in the open cut, it looked like 80mph or more.
We made one stop at Fordham in the the Bronx, the rest were skipped. The New Haven line branches off to the east after Woodlawn. Still no catenary visible (where does the Conn trains switch to Overhead?)
Once we got to Westchester it was all stops. But the speed was pretty good. Got to White PLains in about 40 minutes.
Both malls were in good walking distance. White Plains is a city, so sidewalks and pedestrian friendly crossings are everywhere.
The Galleria was on the low-end style, though the food court was nice.
I liked the Westchester much better. Even though it has only two anchors (Neimans and Nordstrom) the mall is quite large. There's like 3 floors, and 2 of them are carpeted!! The food court was nice as well. The Westchester was reasonably busy, the Galleria was pretty empty.
I got 4:23pm express back to Grand Central. It was another M-1, fortunately this time the front was open.
Very good speed through Westchester, everything just flew by, even with the curves, there doesn't seem to be much speed restriction.
Once we got to the Bronx things slowed down noticably, there was a train in front of us. Still we managed to geta t least 60mph in some parts of Harlem, right before the tunnel.
There was a train visible right in front of us in the tunnel, so it slow, but it still felt like we got to Grand Central pretty quickly.
Several observations about Metro North cars and road. Signals are only at switches and look like subway signals, but flash. The four trackways in the Park ave tunnels aren't seperated. You see trains going in the other direction whizzing by to your left. Pretty cool. The tunnel is in much better shape than the LIRR/Amtrak E.River tunnels. No major leaks, good lighting,etc.
The ASC in the trains is different than LIRR. THe speedometer is analog, and the overspeed warning is a beeping, not a bell.
In Westshester there are cast iron electric poles, but they appear unused (substations are full of weeds). I also observed older electric cars (pre M-1) running out of service going through White Plains. The seating looked totally different.
Also went through Mott Haven (all MNRR trains go through there) and saw an old engine. Trains seem to go through that main junction pretty quickly. Too bad LIRR trains crawl at their main junction (Jamaica).
Saw a diesel set going northbound at White Plains. Stopped on a dime. Those Genesis sets are awesome. Maybe when I return I'll try out a diesel and see what they're like (they run those trains non stop between GCT and White Plains).
All in all Metro North is a much better operation than the LIRR. Even the tickets are different. They are strips.
On the way back I got in a rear car of the 7 train to Times Square at GCT, and it became at 7X so I got the window. Now i've never seen anybody do that with the railfan window, but quite a few people remained seated at Times Square, obviosly the board the train at GCT, ride back to TSQ just for a seat.
Had a real gutsy T/O. She pushed the timers, often within seconds of clearing. It was a fun ride.
Got off in Flushing and went straight to the bus stop. 5:43pm, probably missed the 5:40pm N21.I just wanted to get outta there (you'all know I hate Flushing) and got an N20 to Great Neck.
Then an N21 passes us on Northern Blvd. I do a gutsy move. I get off at Northern and Middle Neck road, cross over to the eastbound side of N.Blvd, and sucessfully catch the N21. That whole Great Neck LIRR diversion can really be a blessing sometimes.
Happy to report there were no Cummins today! :-)
Or any Bee Line buses. :-(
We made one stop at Fordham in the the Bronx, the rest were skipped. The New Haven line branches off to the east after Woodlawn. Still no catenary visible (where does the Conn trains switch to Overhead?)
Between Pelham and New Rochelle.
The Galleria was on the low-end style, though the food court was nice. I liked the Westchester much better. Even though it has only two anchors (Neimans and Nordstrom) the mall is quite large. There's like 3 floors, and 2 of them are carpeted!! The food court was nice as well. The Westchester was reasonably busy, the Galleria was pretty empty.
Did the Penney's in the Galleria have "going out of business" signs up yet?
I'm not surprised that the Galleria was pretty empty. Not only is it low-end, as you noted, but it's been hit hard by competition from the Palisades Mall in Rockland County.
I also observed older electric cars (pre M-1) running out of service going through White Plains. The seating looked totally different.
Those cars - I can't remember their number designation - date all the way back to the New York Central days in the early 1960's. Their seatbacks can be flipped, as is the case on some New Jersey Transit cars. They'll probably be gone in a couple of years, but are still in reasonably good shape.
MNRR flashing Green signal means follow cab signaling. You only get signals at interlocking everything else is cab signal.
The older MNRR electric cars are called the 1100 series.
So what runs are the 1100 series on? Would be interesting to see what an older electric commuter train set is like. Only commuter electrics I've been on are M-1/M-3.
So what runs are the 1100 series on? Would be interesting to see what an older electric commuter train set is like. Only commuter electrics I've been on are M-1/M-3.
They're run on some of the Harlem line locals that terminate at North White Plains. They might also be used on some Hudson line locals to Croton Harmon, I'm not sure.
You'll love this:
Last year, the very train you took back used to be an ACMU-1100 run. Now, that train deadheads back directly in front of the in-service M1 you were on. Train #558 (1:27 PM out of N White Plains) was the first ACMU trip I was ever on, and also my first inbound Metro-North trip. That train has also been replaced with an M1.
Somewhere on this page is a list of all the runs I could count. There is also one on the 6:35 PM to North White Plains, I'll add that to the page sometime. Inbound I've no idea what they are.
Penney's did have going out of business signs up and was quite dingy.
So does anyone know what runs they use those older electric cars that I saw on MNRR? I didn't see any "in service", just out of service.
>>>So does anyone know what runs they use those older electric cars that I saw on MNRR? <<
Are THESEthe type you are talking about? If so they are dual modes, I think.
Also, they are newer than the M-1s, much newer, fyi
Peace,
ANDEE
Are THESEthe type you are talking about? If so they are dual modes, I think.
The picture shows some of the newer Bombardier diesel coaches. The 1100's are very boxy looking, something like a R32 or R38 without the corrugations.
He's talkin about these boys:
The doors are hinged and are manually operated. Turn the knob and pull to get out. You must have an IQ greater than that of a subway rider to use these cars.
Some cars still have the old NYCentral No Spitting (etc) signs on the inside. Once, every car had a bathroom. These are the only single unit MUs anywhere in the MTA railroads.
Here is a picture of the 1100s back in the day of the PCRR. Note the low platform station with third rail. This is Marble Hill, used to have two low side platforms, and that is the 1/9 directly above. Station is today a block further away with one island platform, requiring fancy switching operations around Sputen-Duyville for trains to platform.
Another current pic:
Yes, those were the ones. It looks similar to the diesel cars, but they do seem more "boxy".
Yup, I think those were the ones.
Actually a correction to my earlier reply, I saw the pics Henry posted and those were the cars. They were going by White Plains fast so I couldn't get that great a view of them.
Part 2 of this installment concluded tonight with the movement of Cars 8001-05 from 239th Street Yard, with an R-62A used as a tow motor again. Consist was N-8005-04-03-02-01-2360-59-58-57-56-S. For this movement, there were three persons on board as was the case last night. Two of which were train operators, while the third guy was to act as a flagger in the front of the disabled R-110A set.
The transfer was trailed by R-62As 2301-05.
Notes of interest: 8006-10 were still lighted on the interior with the side destination signs still lit, but not displaying anything. Tail lights were also illuminated. 8001-05 on the other hand, were completely dark, and a flashing red lantern was used at the end of 8005.
I start to wonder now what will become of the Museum R-12/14 Set at 239th Street Yard. They aren't going off to scrap or anything like that, but with space for cars now in demand, they'll have to find a new home. Anyone has any details on this or any other related items, share it with us.
-Stef
Something's going on with these R-110A's. Does anybody connected with 207th St shops know anything ?
Bill "Newkirk"
That was the second half of the delivery to 207th Street Shop. The first half was transfered on Wednesday night. Though nobody knows what there doing with it. I had originally posted that they were gonna be scrapped. This is what I heard from a TSS that works with the R-142. But, it is definate that the R-110A will not see another day of passenger service. The TA was offered to have the trainset rebuilt, but the quickly declined. This is from a VERY reliable source. I do know the head technician from Kawasaki, if I see him, I'll get more info for you all. I'm not one who likes to post ludicrous rumors.
I would bet the TA hasn't decided. They'll probably put them in the main shop, play with them, and after awhile a few suits will make the ultimate decision.
I can confirm for sure that they are here and were spotted rolling downtown tonight. These cars arrived on 2/16/01, the day before 6401-05 were brought up to the East. I wonder where they were going?
On a related note, 6446-50 also travelled to an unknown location although a good guess is the shop forces at 207th Street were going to look at them.
-Stef
Now that the fourth deadline for resuming monorail service has been missed, PA officials stated that they will no longer predict when service will resume.
Electrical problems surfaced during test runs and Adtranz people are trying to figure out what the problem is.
Story in Friday's Star-Ledger.
Forshadowing for AirTrain?
AirTrain is not a monorail.
Where are the monorail apologists now?
>>AirTrain is not a monorail.
But the installation is being overseen by the same people!!
PORT AUTHORITY, the same problems will plague Airtrain as the installation of the Monorail. THEY DON'T LEARN FROM MISTAKES.
Perhaps the contractor doesn't learn either. One of the big problems with the monorail was that it apparently never occurred to the contractor (or the PA, for that matter) that there might be heavy snow and ice conditions in the northeast. That created the original design flaw.
The lack of planning for weather is just too common. The B-2 stealth bomber cannot operate in rain or fog -- the water on the skin makes it stand out like it had lights on!
These weather issues affect monorail much more than steel rail
Would it have been possible or practical to extend either the
- Newark City Subway/NERL/HBLR or similar technology
- PATH
to Newark Airport and have it serve the parking lots and the terminals?
I noticed that on a drawing of the DOCK interlocking that the signals might be connected to the mileage. For example, signal 780Z is near the 8 mile marker. Where are the zeroes on PATH, and what do the information on PATH signals mean?
I can help a little:
PATH has two types of signals:
Z and X. A Z singal corresponds to NYCT automatic signal while an X signal controls a crossover or diverging/converging route.
Z signals also have a double yellow which serves as a speed control/timer.
X signals are similar to old IRT--one aspect will be red. A signal or red over green means green for ther diverging route. The L or R after the name such as LA12X/LA12B indicatesd the diverging route is Left or Right.
I've often wondered why I never see R-62's on the 2 or 5 IRT lines, but only on the 1,3,4 and TS shuttle lines. I'm sure it has something to do with the yards where they are serviced, but that would be guessing.
Anyone know?
Thanks.
R62A cars run on the 5 line. The Dyre Shuttle runs OPTO, thus requiring the R62 cars. Sometimes they run on the 5 line. A strange thing about the R62 cars on the 5 line. Even though the train terminates at Bowling Green between rush hours, the sign still says:
Dyre Avenue
<5>
Flatbush Avenue
It's strange that they change the signs on the redbirds, but not on the R62 cars.
But below Dyre Avenue they don't run on the 5? And what about the 2?
When the cars were ordered they were divided between GE (R-62) and WH (R-62A) control, as part of the negotiation process. Actually, the R-62As and R-68s were almost single-handedly responsible for WH decision to remain in the traction equipment field at the time. GE was then supplying just about everything.
There were just about enough R-62s on order to provide for the #4, which at the time was considered to be the WORST of the GE lines (2, 4, 5). In fact, before 1976, these three lines had a common fleet. The greater number of WH cars under R-62A was enough to replace all but the WH R-29s (8570-8687) and R-36s assigned to the 6. 240 (1), Livonia (3) and Westchester (6) have historically been "Westinghouse" facilities. 239 (2), Mosholu (4) and East 180 (5) are GE facilities. Thus, the conversion of all former WH R-26, 28 and 33 cars (except WF) from WH to GE during the GOH process.
As well, the use of R-62s on the 4 and 62As on the 1, 3 and 6 assured two lines on each side of Manhattan with at least a majority of new cars. Use on the Grand Central Shuttle was dictated by a requirement for single cars and standardization. Further, the 5 is basically a "part-time" operation, so the older cars build up mileage at a slower rate.
With all these new cars having identical control systems made by Alstom, the traditional IRT practice of separating assignments based on control type, will likely fade away, and as we may see in the future, there will probably be at least one instance of mixed GE R-62s and WH R-62As (possibly on the 4). I doubt they'll actually be run together in train sets, but they can MU.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
WOW! So interesting! I had no idea that WH/GE helped determine car assignments. I wonder if this is done on the B div as well.
This isn't done on the B division. Coney and 207th are the great yards that can handle anything. so both WH and GE go there. And, r-32's are the greatest example: they were re-built with some WH's and GEs in Phase I and some WH's and GE's in phase II.
Just as a response to this post, there are a scant few # of R-62's on the 5 line. Once, during a problem, a 5 was routed up 7th Av., and an R-62 ran on the 2 line.
I've seen 1 R-62 #5. It was at Borough Hall heading for Flatbush at the PM rush. While standing at Borough Hall watching, I saw five straight #4s, 3 of them redbirds heading out to Utica, before I finally saw a surprising R62 on a 5 heading for Flatbush. Something was probably wrong at the time. This was well over a year ago.
Nothing wrong. The 4 has some R33s and the 5 has a few R62As.
If you pay attention on the 6, you will see some cars carry black Unionport/E 180th Street Yard stickers. These cars were sent to the 6 in exchange for the R62As for OPTO. The R62As on the 5 have the yellow Pelham stickers. I saw one of these trains at Bowling Green in June but didn't catch the unit number. All that I noticed was the yellow Pelham stickers.
Today of all days Saturday they where running a R62A to Bowling Green but only for one trip. I felt very lucky to have gotten that train for one of my trips.
The Next Conductor was looking foward to take the R62 back down the road but the Dispatcher layed up the R 62 and put in a R 26.
Well what about the #2 line? My home line got no R62s and it was and still is a full time line. It deserved R62s just as much as the #4 line. Trains broke down often on the 2 line back in the pre-R62 days and my dad came home from work just about every other day complaining about his horrible ride on the "old stinky #2 train."
I did see R62s operate on the 2 for a brief period in 1984. My dad was fortunate enough to have caught R62s on the 2 a couple of times during that period and except for the little kid-sized orange seats, he liked them. I wished I could have ridden them at the time and thought the 2 should have had them on a permanent basis. But no, the TA had to go and shaft the 2 line. They just had to stick us with those awful R26, 28 and 29 cars.
Why???
Why? Because the're stupid! Just kidding. I guess the TA decided that the 1/9 and the 4 and 6 deserved them because the cars on those lines were in a very bad state of disrepair, even worse than those R26/28/29 cars. Or maybe because they thought that the 1/9 or the 3 would be better off with better cars than the 2. Then again, they have their own little reasons.
As for R62A's on the 2? I saw that before, just last year. The R62A's that were on the 5 (which came from the 6 line) came to the 2 for a brief trip from 241 St to Flatbush before they were returned to the 5 line. Anyway, the TA has better plans for us "old stinky 2 train" riders in the next two years. We'll be seeing a change when we get those R142's running on a regular schedule.
We'll see, we'll see...
CWalNYC (8^)
Yeah, now the 2 and 5 are getting new cars. Now that I'm away in college and can't ride them on a regular basis. Now that I'm planning to leave NYC because affordable NYC housing is something that does not exist. And it seems like every time I do go home, they're not in service. They're all sitting in Unionport Yard. I can find as many as ten sets of new cars sitting in the yard while nothing but Rustbirds on the 2. The subway gods seem to love screwing the 2 line and the many people who depend on it.
So as far as I'm concered, the subway gods can go on screwing the 2 line and its riders. But I for one am not gonna take it anymore.
After 10 years on lobbying, the LIRR announced that beginning March
19th 2001, there will be train leaving Far Rock at 5:54 am, bridging
a 70 minute gap in service between 5:18 and 6:28.
I have been asking for this periodically for over 10 years.
Halleluyah!!!
Next project: Eastbound early morning service to Mineola from NYP.
I noticed that too. Also, there is no westbound service between 5:40 PM and 6:40 PM. For the "Main Line" service is certainly poor.
How'bout that Greenport branch though? The only train usable by AM peak riders requires a change at Ronkonkoma and Jamaica. They couldn't schedule it to connect to a Penn station train?
How'bout that Greenport branch though? The only train usable by AM peak riders requires a change at Ronkonkoma and Jamaica. They couldn't schedule it to connect to a Penn station train?
Greenport trains arrive in Ronkonkoma about 6:50. The next train out, at 6:57, indeed is a Brooklyn train, but there's an express to Penn just a few minutes later. I usually take the Brooklyn train and change at Jamaica - the ride's a lot less crowded, and you actually arrive at Penn a couple of minutes before the express.
This suddenly occurred to me this morning while riding the bus, as there are always people who don't know their metrocard balances, and wind up looking for change.
We know that if you swipe a metrocard and there is only $1.00 remaining, for instance, you can insert $0.50 in coins and receive a transfer good only for the local buses. The question is: If you leave the house knowing that there is only $1.00 on the metrocard, and you first insert $0.50 in coins and then swipe the metrocard, what happens then? Is a transfer encoded on the metrocard, or do the fareboxes perceive this as two separate short fares?
Bob Sklar
Hi; I believe that the latter, the short fare pick-up is what happens. This was put in by Transit, to prevent a train transfer from being issued w/ a "short" drop.
Here is the official answer provided by Stations AFC training material:
If a customer combines payment for a fare on the bus with cash and MetroCard no transfer to subway is issued. Since cash fares do get s bus transfer, the customer would get a bus-to-bus transfer. It does not matter if cash or card came first.
Suggestion: always make sure your card has at least $2 on the card. Officially, a card with just 1.50 will give a subway-bus transfer but in practice soemtimes there is no transfer placed on the card.
I never know of a problem with cards the only had a $1.50 on them getting a transfers on them. If this every dose happen take the bus number and F/B numbers and call Metrocards serivec. and they will fix the problem.
Robert
I've been told that you don't get the last MetroCard Transfer, so if you have 1.50 or 2.00 left on the MC ... suprise.
Anyone care to deny this ?
Mr t__:^)
I can only speak from my own personal experience -- which dates back to the dark ages when all Metrocards were pay-per-ride. (I've been using unlimited cards since they were introduced.)
While I didn't always make qualifying use of the card within the 2 hour period after running the balance to zero, I did so many, many times. The transfer was always there and usable whenever I did. Maybe there is an intermittent problem to which the technology is prone. Maybe I was just lucky. All I can say with certainty is that my experience proves that the final transfer is not always lost and suggests that it is not lost in the large majority of cases.
Thanks, for the input, it is greatly appreciated.
Mr t__:^)
This question came up sometime last year, and since Rosanne and I had the opportunity to try it we did. As I recall we took an L from Bedford Ave. to Union Square. Our MetroCard balance after entering fare control at Bedford was zero. We then transfered to an M-14 and the transfer did work.
Thanks to you too Gary. I appreciate your reply.
Mr t__:^)
With NYC Subways and NYC Buses going for $1.50
a swipe... how is it even possible to be left with
$1.00 on a basic, any-level, yadda yadda MetroCard?
Does it subtract .50 for each day it is left sitting
on top of a Meat Loaf CD??
Ever add $20 to the card (get $22.00)? You know you can refill those things, right?
Ah well, FUN PASS saves me that worry...
After all... I WAS quoted in that "Fans Of Tokens"
article in NYT not so long ago..
Thanx for clarity, Henry!
I thought you didn't use Metrocards.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have a card with $20.02 on it, guess the Station Agent wanted to give me my two cents worth
Mr t
Or put in his/her 2 cents worth
Peace,
ANDEE
Hi,
Can anyone please help. Our drama society (in Hertfordshire, England) are putting on a production of Little Shop Of Horrors which is a 1960's play based in Downtown New York.
As a major piece of set we need a subway entrance - for which I need to find out what such entrances were like in the 40's/50's. If anyone knows of a web site where I can see a picture of any signs, or entrances/exits, then I'd be very grateful.
Similarly, if anyone can tell me what they looked like (mosaics generally I believe) then that would be great too.
All help much appreciated.
Kat.
Here's what your carpenters will want to do for a Bowery station of the period - models in HO scale are available from:
imagesreplicas.com
and here's an image of what you require:
That's a great model site, Selkirk!
One question, though: the lettering shown in the models dates from the 70's, no? Also, the use of color-coded circles started in 1979, I believe.
What was used before that?
Usually it was a large porcelain sign that would say things like "BMT Subway, UPTOWN-DOWNTOWN" and a list of places it went ... things like "To Manhattan" or "To Bronx and Queens" and things of that sort. The name of the line was usually shown and the globes on top were different colors to indicate the division. The circles and colors came in the late 1960's when the 32's and later started appearing.
If I recall the lettering was white on a green background for the BMT and white on a blue background for the IRT. Believe or not I'm not sureof the IND. think colors were the same as the BMT. It was nice seeing the name Interborough Rapid Transit Company on those signs right thru the 50's, maybe later in some cases.
Each division had its own globes not only in colors.The IRT was like a round ball IIRC, blue in color..maybe in some places different. I"m not sure now. The BMT had a distinctive light fixture with green and white glass IIRC, with a metal top; The IND had cube shaped light globes..green if I remember, or white, or some of each. I'm sorry if I don't remember the colors perfectly.
Surprise on the Jamaica el..as late as l977 as I remember the sign over the stairs at a Sutphin Blvd-Jamaica el entrance still said MUNICIPAL RAILWAY in white letters on blue. At one time a BRT or BMT subsidiary was NYRM. The BMT paintover must have flaked away.
Yep - you've got it ... and you thought the mind was the first thing to go as you got up in years. (grin>
One of those lasted at 59th Street-Columbus Circle (at one of the IRT entrances in the Broadway island) until about ten years ago, probably a bit less.
I can remember a plain "SUBWAY" sign, with nothing else, at the Bowery station entrance in the late 60s.
IND signs at entrances were green with white lettering. You'd see "8th Ave./Independent Subway System" at stations along 8th Ave. while the "8th Ave." portion was omitted along 6th Ave. Entrances along the Queens line had, "Queensboro-8th Ave." at their entrances. Since the 8th Ave. line was the first IND segment to open, that moniker stuck. People referred to any IND portion as the 8th Ave. subway.
IRT entrances at Times Square had "NYC Transit System/IRT" signs in the late 60s. The 34th St. entrance to the 7th Ave. line had "Interborough Subway" as late as 1979.
If you're referring to INTERIOR sites of underground stations, if time permits, have someone check out the main site here at www.nycsubway.org. Little Shop was "set" on the "Bowery" in Manhattan. You will find some station shots here of the "Bowery" station if you're looking for platform shots where the trains were. The "BMT standards" were the cars in use at the time as were some "Triplexes."
However I doubt for a theatrical purpose, you would want to bother with the subway cars. My other post does show what the sidewalk entrances generally looked like at the time. I lived it.
I have a photography trip planned to visit the NYC subway. I will be filming and documenting train movements throughout the system, alot of the time at night and would appreciate information on areas that a tourist should stay away from late at night in all buroughs. Especially I need to know which train yard areas are considered dangerous for one or two people to be hanging around waiting at, with expensive equipment in hand etc.. Which lines should I stter clear of?? Any information is handy, thankyou..
This question comes up all the time and is typically fueled by tourist timidity and the reputation New York City gained in its early 80s low period. It doesn't help that every single tourist going to a city (doesn't matter which city) is constantly asking, "is it safe", as if every single tourist is going to find themselves in East New York or South Central L.A. at 3 am. It's almost as if people seriously think they're going to get robbed, raped and shot after their Saturday matinee of "The Lion King"... New York, London, Paris, it's all the same and the "is it safe" attitude constantly bothers me for reasons I can't quite put my finger on. Okay, end rant, mostly.
The rule of thumb though is this: if you look like a target, if you act like a target, you ARE a target no matter where you are or what time of day it is. You could be standing on the steps of St. Patrick's fumbling with your camera equipment in broad daylight and still get robbed. Seen it happen.
I highly suggest scouting out your locations ahead of time. Maybe rent a car and drive to your off-subway-system locations when you go back at night. If you think an area looks dicey at night when you get there you can move along without having to carry your expensive stuff back to the station.
The areas around the yards are typically desolate. Coney Island and Concourse come to mind immediately. You may not have a problem, but if you do, no one is coming to your rescue. Good yard views, however, are hard to come by from outside the razor wire and double dog-run fences.
You shouldn't have a problem at night at nearly any of the stations themselves. You should probably not go alone, not because I think you're going to get attacked, but a second set of hands and eyes is always good protection. If you can get your hands on them wear orange reflective "transit worker" style vests. Also can't hurt to have a radio scanner tuned to the transit frequencies. People will think you are an employee with direct contact to police.
By the way if you are intending to use anything more than a handheld camera without lights you need to get a permit. If you're setting up tripod type equipment on platforms I'd check in at a token booth with the agent, display your permit, and tell them where you're going to be. Don't even think of trying to get into restricted areas to get that "good shot". You're in more danger of being hit by a train or arrested than being mugged.
What exactly do you mean by a double dog run fence?
Is this where two fences are constructed parallel to eachother and the space between them is patrolled by dogs?
-Robert King
Yes. Although in the case of the NYCT yards I'm not sure if they actually have dogs.
Although in the case of the NYCT yards I'm not sure if they actually have dogs.
That was tried back in the 1970's, but the idea was soon dropped. Ed Koch actually proposed using wolves to patrol subway yards. It's hard to say exactly how serious he was ...
Dogs would get fried if they were in the yards??
Wolves, hahaha that's great :-)
..Speaking of restricted areas, are there any yards or any train storage areas that are not hard to access?? I see on here alot of photos taken from within the yards, i guess in my case, taking the photos of trains in the yards after dark may be a problem.. Which yards and layups should i try, even if i have to enter restricted areas to get the shots?? Thanx for the information..
You see the pictures within the yards because of several fan trips to subway yards. These trips got permission from the TA so that we can take pictures within the yard.
You have to get permission to enter the yards. Or if there is a fantrip to subway yards, be sure to take part in this activity.
Chaohwa
thats Bull, what about graffiti writers, yo man just scout the area, bring a Police scanner, and a flash light dont get snobby with the light watch for clearence and dont step near third rail. have fun
You won't find many of us advocating that kind of attitude ... tends to spoil it for the rest of us, i.e. the TA gets the attitude why should we bend the rules to let anyone in for any reason.
The other good point is that's it's very easy to get hurt in and around those yards.
My suggestion: do it in day light, week-day non-rush hours or week-ends. Go with a friend or two & as Dave P. said try NOT to look like a tourist ... you'll have fun.
You may not get the best photos this way, but you will be able to see a lot of the system & at least have good memories. Why not down load one of the photos from this site to go with you memories ? When I go away I buy post cards ... the pictures are better them mine.
Mr t__:^)
I don't think anyone here is going to encourage you or direct you how to trespass. Doing it at night and you're likely to get fried. (Sure, graffiti miscreants manage to do it but you don't strike me as the urban youth type.) Typically, the yard photos on here are from three circumstances:
A) "older" photos from when security was a little more lax
B) escorted tours
C) contributed by employees
Whats going to fry me if i enter a yard?? Doesnt the 3rd rails get turned off at all?? I cant beleive you still get graffiti on trains.. Isnt two fences and dogs patrolling enough?? I would have thought security in yards would be tight.. with cameras and all sorts?? what other security measures do they have??
Whats going to fry me if i enter a yard?? Doesnt the 3rd rails get turned off at all?? I cant beleive you still get graffiti on trains..
Isnt two fences and dogs patrolling enough?? I would have thought security in yards would be tight.. with cameras and all sorts?? what other security measures do they have??
You can be assured that the third rails are most definitely alive. Not to mention the old adage that any train can move on any track at any time. Yards definitely aren't safe places.
The best advice is Stay out if you are not allowed there. Those who work there know the place and what to avoid. Some years ago, a teenager was playing around the Bush Terminal yard of the NY Connecting Railroad, which at the time was electrified and under catenary. He got on top of a boxcar, made contact with the overhead, and got an instant meeting with St. Peter. His family cried and the railroad eventually remove the catenary. You do not know what hazards lurk in rail yards, and you do not want to find out at the worst possible moment, so stay safe and stay out. Most of us would prefer to die of something called old age, not of utter stupidity.
People who die of electrecution and other transit mishaps dont scout the place well enough, I could safely get in and out of almost any (especially the Bush Terminal Scrap Yard) easily but only from experience. Except for Ghost yard(207th st. Yard) that place is a fortress. The single biggest security measure the MTA has is NYPD Transit Police Vandal Squad. Now those guys are the REAL watch dogs. I even give 'em credit, not too many people know of Tom and Jerry of Vandal Squad
The Ghost Yard is the Lenox Terminal yard because of the spooky noise caused by the wind under Esplanade Gardens.
OK, you get out today, but one slip and you are explaining yourself to an old guy in front of the Pearly Gates- at least, that is how the afterlife was explained to me. I say again, if you do not belong there, stay out. Those who get paid to be there are well drilled about the dangers of the place, so please do not fall to temptation and go to any rail yard or track or right-of-way otherwise that could be your last trip to anyplace. Getting pictures is really cool, but getting injured or killed is no fun for family members, employees, managers and investigative agencies. Someone has to explain what you were doing there and why, and how to prevent you or someone else from going there again. Not everyone gets to see the headaches caused by someone getting injured while being in a place where he does not belong. I hadd the unfortunate experience of seeing the problems caused by situations like that, and believe me, it is hellish. It is also expensive, as tax dollars which could be spent on better things are taken up with the investigation, police, medical examiner, and on and on.
Having worked both rapid transit and freight rails I'd like to offer my two cents worth. The lack of 3rd rails in most freight yards is balanced in freight yards by cars and cuts of cars being allowed to move on their own momentum, sometimes with nobody "on the point" to warn you, no horn, nothing. Cars roll silently on cushioned [ballast or cinder roadbed]. Sometimes even a move pulled by a loco. the engineer cannot see you around a hood, or is watching his foreman for signals. And automated switching is coming in. [Remote control loco's]Just sharing a few thoughts. Doc is right.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. You know the territory, and the dangers that lurk therein, so please continue to inform the rest of us that safety comes first, last and always. Trying to comfort a family who just lost a loved one to something really dumb, like someone being in a place where they had no business being and getting hurt or killed because of it, is one of the aspects of my profession that I really did not like, but I had to do it. I wonder how some poor T/O who was involved in an accident in which someone fell or was pushed in front of him or her could deal with the sight of the victim being hit, then the aftermath of the investigation, the testing for alcohol and other substances, the questions, and the final reporting. Say safe out there, guys.
He could just get a really powerful camera lense and stake out the roof on an adjacent building.
Or poke the lens through the centre of a square in a chain link fence which works reasonably well as long as the lens is centred fairly accurately.
You can stand on the roof of your car or better yet, SUV/Van.
I actually know of a person who saw something interesting in a subway yard and made a point of returning later with a tall step ladder and a small "table tripod" for the camera to be able to photograph it with longer exposure times as it was a dark cloudy day.
There is one public area with a decent winter (no tree leaves) view of Jamaica Yard. Go to Union Turnpike station and walk north from the RED exit up 78th to where you see the employee entrance to the yard. There is a small area w/benches to the left of the yard, and a small path which dead ends at a low metal barricade, with a new looking chain link fence further beyond. Go around the barricade and up to the chain link fence and you get a perfect view of the Jamaica Yard tunnel portals in one direction, and the easternmost yard tracks in the other, while standing next to the leads themselves. Please note: the chain link fence was put up in 1999, when I believe the MTA bought the entire bridge there. Before, the walkway beyond the fence belonged to the parks department and you could walk across the bridge mere inches from the trains (though people rarely did, there's nothing on the other side). The path turns left after the bridge and goes down to the Grand Central parkway.
Dave,
Could you put your remarks into the FAQ section? I cannot describe how good your remarks are.
Chaohwa
Can you please help me out with my Active layups post??
I permit therefore I am.
Any place late at night in the city can be dangerous it if it's not busy. I would particularly be careful in areas in the Bronx or Brooklyn, even Queens if photographing at off hours, or when school lets out*
*Weekday Afternoons on the Flushing and Queens Blvd lines can have lots of rowdy kids
The Corona yards are easy to photograph, you can get nice pictures from the overpass there (between the 7 and LIRR station). But really don't go there at night, because it can get unsafe. Downtown Flushing at night isn't any safer either.
Has anyone here ever been at Flushing late at night (say after 10pm or so)? What is it really like?
Thankyou, John.. can you pinpoint areas in the Bronx and Brooklyn.. I know areas on the A,C ang G lines can be hazzardous. Thankyou
Sorry I don't know Bronx and Brooklyn that well, but I wouldn't hang out in those areas at night that's what I can say.
Flushing after 10pm you will find a few people waiting at each bus stop and virtually nobody elsewhere. I think downtown Flushing area is generally safe. Yes I have seen groups of Asian (and even hispanic and black) youths walking here and there but they haven't bothered me too much yet.
Young people will always collect in groups, it's their nature. And people like John will always think of groups of young people as dangerous gangs. It's their prejudice nature.
Someone tell me how long this will all take...
PATH TO 34th. Arrive 34th at 9:30am
63rd St tunnels, to 21st and back to 42
D from 42 to 161st/Yankee
4 to Woodlawn then back down the lex to Franklin
Franklin shuttle from Botanic Garden to the jct with the Fulton IND, then back to Prospect
Q to Stillwell
N back to downtown
Anyone interested in meetin' me somewhere alnog the line?
>>>PATH TO 34th. Arrive 34th at 9:30am <<<
From where?
>>>63rd St tunnels, to 21st and back to 42 <<<
30 minutes.
>>>D from 42 to 161st/Yankee<<<
35-40 minutes
>>>4 to Woodlawn then back down the lex to Franklin<<<
90-100 minutes
>>>Franklin shuttle from Botanic Garden to the jct with the Fulton IND, then back to Prospect<<<
not sure, ask BMTman
>>>Q to Stillwell<<<
45 min
>>>N back to downtown<<<
FOREVER 8-) about, 90 min
>>>Anyone interested in meetin' me somewhere alnog the line?<<<
Sure, I live near Woodlawn I'll E-mail as the day gets closer.
Peace,
ANDEE
Q to stillwell takes 45 minutes???? It would make it to Brighton Beach in 12 easily, and you wait 10 minutes at the ultimate most for the D which gets you to stillwell in like 6-7 minutes. 45 minutes-where'd you get that from?
OOPS!
Peace,
ANDEE
In honor of WMATA's 25th Anniversary?
Hard to believe, but I won't be in town for it (but I would if they used the REAL anniversary).
The Franklin shuttle runs 10 minute headways, departing Prospect Park on the 2s (:02, :22, etc) from 7AM to 6PM (other times less frequent). From Park Pl (04, 24, etc) to Franklin takes 5 minutes. From Franklin (00, 10, etc) to Prospect takes 6 minutes. So if you just miss one it will still take you max 20 minutes.
HI all, Baseball season is just around the corner and that means Fantasy Baseball time. If you into fantasy sports I just started up a league at the SANDBOX.com web site. It's free to play and lots of fun. The name of my league is
NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT LEAGUE
It's a private league that requires a password which is
MTA
This league has 4 spaces left so join quickly, if you know of someone you likes Fantasy Baseball please e-mail this posting to them.
Fellow SubTalkers,
I'm just back from two weeks in Sydney, Singapore, and Bangkok. The rail riding was terrific! On the very turbulent eleven hour Tokyo to Chicago leg, I did a new write-up for SYD, and an update of my BKK page (Mark F. previously prepared a great write-up of SIN). Plus, I have dozens of images for all three cities. Everything will be sent along to our Webmaster this weekend for posting. (Thanks to United Airlines for installing laptop power ports so I could work on their international flights!)
The weather was HOT and HUMID in all three cities of course, so it's nice to come home to winter weather.
welcome back! Todd, look foward to your writeups
Peace,
ANDEE
Todd, you should have given the flight crew an aviation forecast for that Tokyo-to-Chicago leg so they could have picked a better route (sudden turbulence and laptops -- not a match made it heaven) :-)
It's a nasty trade-off. Plunking your jet in the middle of the jet stream heading eastbound gives you a 150mph+ tail wind, which saves gobs of fuel and shortens the travel time by hours. But that's where the nasty bumps are. Avoiding that will add many hours and thousands of dollars to the flight. Westbound flights avoid this, to avoid the headwinds.
By the way, the routes that jets take across the ocean are called "tracks," as they are fixed routes that the jets can't steer off of without significant and difficult to accomplish coordination. (See, on topic!)
[By the way, the routes that jets take across the ocean are called "tracks," as they are fixed routes that the jets can't steer off of without significant and difficult to accomplish coordination.]
Sounds like they need to do some MOW work on those TRACKS. Guess the pilots were watching their radar closely to see if some of the switches were thrown against them :-)
BTW, Welcome back.
Mr t
Now the Northeast is in for a whale of a blizzard. Is it time to cue up the Welcome Back, Kotter theme yet?:-)
You're not kidding about the air "tracks". Check this out:
From the window of a Continental Boeing 777 en route from Manchester, U.K. to Newark, September 9, 2000. We paralleled those two planes the whole way back to North America.
Yup, that's right! Somewhere I've seen the track naming scheme... I'll try to find it. They're called "NAT" for North Atlantic Tracks. Getting "switched" off a track (either laterally or vertically) once on is really tough, since coordination via RF radio with land-based control and other aircraft must take place. There's a new scheme being tested over the Pacific where specially-outfitted airplanes with advanced TCAS (an I-see-you--you-see-me system) can talk to each other to obtain "passing" permission.
I wish we could trade. I think anyone would be crazy not to be someplace with beautiful, mystical girls and hot weather and rather be in snow. Needless to say I'd much rather be with a mystical girl in a nice summer outfit, than trudging through foot high snow in "what's a shovel" Sea Cliff.
"... so it's nice to come home to winter weather".
You SURE about that, now?? :) I much prefer the hot and humid weather myself.
Were you able to get a cab ride on the Singapore MRT? Has much changed since my writeup?
It seems that, usually, there's a story to tell about flights to the Far East. When I flew to Singapore, the plane made an "unscheduled fuel stop" in Fairbanks, Alaska. (I guess that's better than taking an unscheduled swim :) Between the headwinds we flew through, and the weight of the plane being more that expected, we needed additional fuel to complete the trip. I missed my connections and stayed overnight in Bangkok. No turbulence, though.
--Mark
Nope, didn't get a cab ride. I was traveling with a non-railfan friend. But your write-up is still pretty up-to-date. One addition, though: The entire system is now wired for wireless phone communications. EVERYONE, old and young alike, was on the phone. Phones rang continuously - in stations and on moving trains - even in the tunnels. In Bangkok too, EVERYONE it seems was on the phone. We still have it relatively quiet here in the US!
Europe and Asia are approximately 2 years ahead of us when it comes to (the use of) wireless technology. Wonder if they have any "no phone use while driving" laws.
--Mark
On the January 2001 subway map, they have the 63rd Steet connector drawn in. I picked up the map at the library today.
I looked at "the map" on mta.nyc.ny.us and I didn't see the 63rd street connector.
I posted about this when they first started appearing in stations (on the wall). I didn't know they were even making customer versions until someone else mentioned it. I've had it hanging on my wall for the past month. They're on most trains now and in most stations as well.
Congrats, you're the first person to have a computer image of an official map showing the connector (unless someone else scanned it and didn't tell us). As Ry-trans-it said, not even the MTA site has it.
I got that MAP.
I fround that MAP in Grand Central Station.
But why the R Line will skip 53 and 45 St's heading to 36 St doing Late Nights?
Dominick Bermudez.
Already discussed in a previous thread.
Now that's how you disorient people. People looking at that map would now think, "Oh, the E/F/G/R isn't changing. Its only the Q that will be extended. Nothing to worry about."
I believe the TA should've put the plan into it, and showed what service will be like instead of drawing an orange line to connect with the Q, even though that's what the plan should've been all along.
Riding the C train from Jay St to Columbus Circle, I noticed a WD sign at the Canal St. station as well as flashing white lights in the station, itself. The train literally crept from WTC through Canal and then resumed normal speed. Does WD mean Work Detail? If it does, I saw no workers on the tracks nor any sign of flags or equipment and I was looking out the front window.
Carl M.
WDs are wheel detectors. Kinda like timer signals, except they can trip a train even after it passes the WD (thus the WD END sign). They are being installed at various crossings to keep trains slow. The ones around Canal which aren't close to the switch yet are pretty lenient (25) but many T/Os are terrified of these things so they often crawl through as if it were skeletonized track. If anything gets tripped by a WD, the appropriate tower is immediately alerted and the T/O is screwed. They flash while the train is not adhering to the speed restriction, and are steady when the train is compliant. When the light is not on at all, it is inactive. What I don't understand about the Canal st northbound ones is why they are active even if the A is the next train. It won't be crossing the switch! Southbound, they are inactive if an E is there but on when a C is entering.
I sometimes think it is more a sign of protest than fear that trains crawl through those areas. Even though the switch is after the station, southbound As and northbound Es must wait in the tunnel before Canal until the C has crossed the switch and a line up is given. Plus of course there is probably a train behind those Cs waiting to enter anyway. Some T/Os may be deliberately holding up the railroad and thousands of riders to perhaps annoy the management into removing those stupid things.
If WDs didn't alert the tower or have the ability to trip mid-train, I'd probably like them. They are better than timers in some sense, with timers you have to kinda guess when they will clear (which leads to T/Os driving erratically, ie: slowing from 45 to 10 after going to fast in an area timed for 30). With WDs one can tell from a short distance away wether speed should be reduced. They're kinda like those signs on the highway telling you how fast you're going.
When did the lords of the MTA come up with those things? My guess is that they want to keep a C train from de-railing while crossing the interlocking north of Canal Street, and probably after seeing what happened during that crash and derailing that happened on the IRT #4 going southbound just before 14th Street some years ago. Was there supposed to be a subway connection built as part of the second system in the tunnel connecting the World Trade Center station and Canal Street? I see evidence of a tunnel portal which has no tracks, branching off the route in that aforementioned tunnel section. Could some use be made of that proposed tunnel at some point in time?
We were told in school that new regulations and features like this are mandated after major accidents. (Forgot offhand which one they said caused the WD detectors. Willy B crash perhaps? Or maybe one of the IRT collisions in the Bronx not too long ago.) The federal govt. requires that an agency "does something" to remedy a problem after each accident like those.
There was a proposed Worth St line as part of the IND second system that would have branched off there.
We can all thank our good buddy Robert Ray for these wheel detectors. For those unaware, he was the motorman that wrapped that #4 train around the wall at Union Square back in August of 1991. Lucky for him he's in jail, because plenty of TA employees, myself included, would probably choke this guy to death given the chance. You would not believe the impact that incident had on this job. As for the wheel detectors themselves, I vote for the one north of Pacific St. crossing from F1 to F3 as biggest pain in the a**. Every morning on my first trip southbound, it takes us 20 minutes to get form Whitehall St. to DeKalb Ave. because of N trains crossing over that thing.
Those wheel detectors at Pacific are a real pain in the a**! Sometimes I think one could walk from Dekalb to Pacific faster than a train moves through there.
What run do you have on the N. I will be posting with N206 on this comming up Thusday to make up for the day I missed in line training. Then on Friday I am on my own. Let me know if this is you.
Robert
Actually I'm the conductor on N215, starting out of City Hall. However, I do come across 206 when I get to Astoria before my first trip. I'll probably see you there. The regular 206 motorman is a pretty decent guy. You should be OK.
Thanks for the 411.
Robert
exacly what wd do .
Thanks for that info on WD's. I never knew any of that stuff!
You're right, The WD should be off for A trains, but it isn't. There shouldn't even be a WD before canal, only after it. There should be a light always set to red at the end of Canal, forcing even trains oos to stop and adheed the WD.
The northbound A is only affected coming in to the station. If he receives an express lineup leaving Canal St, the WD is not on and he can proceed at the regular speed. If the lineup is for the local, the WD remains in effect until the train has crossed the switch and has passed the WD END sign.
Train operators are deathly afraid of WDs because once the train is tripped by them, they cannot be reset by the tower. The Control Center must be called; they are the only ones who can reset the WD. What does that mean? A visit from a TSS, writing a G2, or possibly being taken out of service.
That WD was there at Canal St for a while, but was not made functional until the incident happened with the small child falling outside the Q train as it was either crossing a switch or rounding a curve.
Basically, the only train this WD affects is the C (and late at night, the A) because it is the only train that diverges from one track to another.
Indirectly it affects all 8th ave, the trains waiting for the C to finish crossing (all tracks). Also, the A T/Os still must slow down on entering, despite the fact there is no reason to. Maybe there should be a punch at Chambers, WD off if express line-up.
The WTC bound E train also has to contend with those #%*#%* wheel detectors even though it does not cross over. I fail to see the link between the WD's entering Canal on straight rail and the Q train incident. In addition, if a WD is activated by overspeed, the respective tower, bangs in the train operator if he/she hasn't already done so. The respective tower, not Control Center resets the WD under the orders of the Control Center.
Thanks for clarifying that, Bill.
It may have just been coincidence, but that WD at Canal was activated the day after that terrible incident happened on the Q train. I, too, fail to see why it was done if it indeed was as a result of that incident.
Wheel Detectors. Any T/O that goes through a flashing white will send the train into emergency (they have trips) and the T/O in big trouble.
I believe they can record certain information regular signals can't.
Wheel Detectors sense how fast a train is moving by the passage of wheels I guess.
This evening on my way home from work, I was sitting on my Red Line train fairly close to a set of doors as it made its way through the downtown stops on the State Street Subway. Naturally, the train was packed with the usual rush hour mob.
I watched as some guy carrying a large duffel bag over his shoulder got on the train at Washington, stood in the train for a few seconds, and then for some reason, decided he didn't want to be on the train after all and attempted to step back off. At this same moment, the doors had begun closing.
The guy made it off the train okay, but the strap of the duffel bag got caught in the closing doors. To everybody's horror, and especially to the horror of the guy standing on the platform while strapped to the exterior of a subway train, the doors never re-opened and the train began to pull out of the station.
I was sitting on the other side of the train watching this unfold before my eyes, but I wasn't close enough to reach the emergency release knob above the door and pull it. So I shouted "Pull the red ball!" to the people standing next to the door, but they merely stood there with confused, blank stares on their faces. "PULL THE FUCKING RED BALL!!!" I shouted once again, but to no avail. One guy sort of looked at the ball for a second and even gave it a very timid tug, but then gave up.
Meanwhile, the guy outside the train was at least smart enough to realize it would be in his best interest to immediately free himself from his bag, and did so.
By now the train is moving at a decent clip with this guy's bag still stuck in the door. One of the passengers next to the door who did absolutely nothing to help this guy free himself was now publicly berating me for yelling profanity at her.
Luckily, the train was now pulling into the stop at Lake Street, which is really only about a hundred yards from Washington and shares the same platform thanks to Chicago's continuous-platform design on the downtown subways. So I got up and shoved my way past the crowd and pulled the door-release ball as the train is coming to a stop. I grabbed the guy's bag and jump off the train, and ran back towards Washington. I soon found the guy (he had been chasing after the train, hoping to catch up with it at Lake) and gave him his bag back.
The train was still standing at the station now, so I got back on and continued my journey home. As the train continued northward, the crowd thined out a bit and I walked through the train back up to the head car. I got off at my regular stop and confronted the T/O about the incident back at Washington.
Me: "Excuse me, what's your run number?"
T/O: "833"
Me: "You almost dragged a guy back at Washington. He was stuck in the doors and you started pulling out."
T/O: "I didn't see anything like that."
Me: "Well, it's your job to see it."
T/O: "Have a nice day," sarcastically.
A couple observations come to mind:
Yeah, the duffel bag guy was an idiot for making a last-minute decision to get off the train as the doors were closing, but that doesn't mean he would have deserved to have been dragged to death if he hadn't been able to free himself from the strap. This incident is almost identical to the Rachel Barton incident on Metra a few years ago, in which the strap of a young lady's violin case got caught in the closing doors. She was unable to free herself, and when the train began pulling out of the station, she was dragged under the wheels of the train and lost her left leg and right foot. The amount of damages she was awarded in her subsequent lawsuit probably would have sent many smaller transit agencies into bankruptcy.
The doors-closing chime on the CTA is utterly worthless as a safety device. Unlike in New York where the chime is actived by the door control itself, the chime on CTA trains is a seperate button the T/O has to push. Therefore, there is no direct correlation between the time you hear the warning and the time the doors begin closing; you often hear the doors-closing warning two or three times while the train is standing in a station, and then several more seconds pass before the doors actually close. It's not unusual to even hear the warning after the doors have already closed and the train has already started moving. The result? People see it for the joke it is and completely disregard it. The chime should be set up like NYC's and Boston's where the chime means the doors really are closing.
OPTO here in Chicago is a disaster waiting to happen. (Take heed, NYCTA!) I've observed that most CTA operators merely take a quick glance down the platform, push the lever to close the doors, and then quickly duck back over to their console before the doors are even fully closed. This is especially true at stations with island platforms (such as the downtown subways where today's incident took place), where the doors are opening on the opposite side of the train from the driving position. This creates a few critical seconds where there are no eyes watching the platform at the exact time they are most needed. Some stations have video monitors, but these are only at stations with obstructed visibility, and a video monitor is still a poor substitute for a real conductor.
Comments? Observations? Questions?
I'm debating whether or not to contact the CTA and report this T/O, as I did write down his run number. On one hand I don't want to get the guy fired, but on the other hand I have a hard time looking the other way when stuff like this happens. Any thoughts about this would also be appreciated, especially from those of you who are T/O's.
Thanks in advance,
-- David
Chicago, IL
OPTO in NY isn't as bad an idea as u would think. First of all, it is on off-peak hours trains (unlike your ordeal), and not even on weekdays any longer. Further, the trains used to opto have this wierd light orientation where some type of instrumentation in front of the operator doesn't light up until all doors have closed (not saying this won't fail).
Failing to pull the emergency brake is something that wouldn't happen in NY. Matter-of-fact, some people are all too willing to pull it....
What happened there today was tragic, and could have resulted in that guy's death. And the T/O seemed so non-chalant about as if it were some casual thing. Now i'm no T/O (i'm 16) but my dad is a Transit Authority Employee, and although he has never worked on the operation of trains (maintainer, foreman, supervisor), he now teaches crane and rail safety. As a rail safety instructor, and as a foreman/supervisor, he's 'written up' people for endangering themselves. Although the worker maybe someone with a family, and rent to pay, they get suspended without pay because a life is more important than a paycheck. You should report that T/O because he's an incompetent jackass.
CTA trains also have a light that indicates all doors are closed, but the doors aren't sensitive enough to detect something as small and flexible as a strap on a bag.
This brings up another issue I should have mentioned:
Door edges on NYCTA and MBTA trains also have a better design than Chicago's. In NYC and Boston, the rubber edges at the door fit together in sort of a tongue-and-groove arrangement, while Chicago's door edges are merely two rounded pieces of rubber that bump against each other. Sometimes they don't even touch and there's a visible gap of up to 1/4" between the leaves of the door. These door edges are supposedly pressure-sensitive, causing the door to reopen if they detect pressure, but you have to give them a pretty hard squeeze to be very effective. Again, they're not nearly sensitive enough to detect something like a leather strap. (Safety issues aside, the tongue-and-groove door edges are also much more effective at keeping out winter drafts.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
A leather strap would be detected on an NYC train because of it's thickness. R-46 doors are so sensitive, that if you push outward on them as their closing, the rubber will push against itself, and the door will stay open. However, if say a small string with a knot at the end were to get caught in the door, that would pose a problem.
Sounds like the rubber on NYCTA cars before they were GOH'd and A/C was added. Actually, a couple of years back, while working up at Pelham Bay in the Bronx, when the tounge-and-groove style rubber was in the process of being installed on the R-62A's, one night a few of us had nothing better to do, there was a layup in the station that wasn't leaving for awhile. So we decided to start 'testing' the new rubber by keying open a door panel, and putting various objects in its way. We found that rigid items (leather belts, handbag straps, Etc.) caused the door not to close and the guard light ot hang. However, thin items like ties, shoelaces, pants legs, shirtsleeves, still enabled the rubber to mate and cleared the guard light. OK if you're inside the train, not so good if you're outside. Moral of the story: when we say 'stand clear of the closing doors' we're not saying it for our health. Be aware at all times. That motorman was a putz. Those people who were right near the door were bigger putzes. The woman who became 'offended' by your yelling probably would have voted for Hillary if she lived in NY. Your efforts were noble. You should be proud of what you did.
Usually, u can pull your clothes out of the door anyway, so it really isn't that bad.
Redbirds don't have that 'interlocking system.
That's because top brass figured the Redbirds were slated for retirement anyway, and it wasn't worth the expense. Now it looks as if those same Redbirds may be around a bit longer than initially anticipated. Time for more Bondo...
On anything in NYC made before 1990 you can force open the door up to 1/4 inch and the guard light stays off. However, if the door hasn't fully closed yet something 1/4" wide will still cause a hung guard light.
On newer stuff the doors cannot be forced open at all. The problem:
At 34th/7th I get on the R-142 2. Part of my coat gets caught between the doors, but it is a very thin part and the guard light goes out. Thanks to the 'recycle' feature the door holders in other parts of the train do not cause the C/R to reopen the doors. The next stop with doors opening on the left side is at 110 st, but I just heard over the scanner we were to go express 96th to 135. So the next stop is E180, but we end up in the express track there so the doors open on the right. The stop I get off at? Gun Hill Road. All for a one stop ride from 34th to 42nd. If we had gone express after there and pulled in on the left track at White Plains Rd I would have had to wait until 238st downtown to get separated from the door, and have to stay on the same train all the way to 42nd.
Perhaps next time that happens just get someone to pull the brake.
Alot of people in the train may be upset because of the delay, but they are just a bunch of inconsiderate idiots. I know if it were me I would've gotten that cord pulled, while the train was in the station.
I really find it hard to believe that you couldn't pull the thin part of your coat out from between the closed door panels (unles you have some major upper body disability, in which case I apologize) on the trip from 34 St to Gun Hill Rd (that's about 40 minutes, folks). Even working on the condition that you couldn't free your coat from the door, did it ever occur to you to get out of your coat and either use the Passenger Emergency Intercom, pull the Passenger Emergency Handle Unit or wander down to the CR or TO and tell them (since you couldn't free your coat, I doubt anyone else could either, so theft shouldn't have been a problem). Or, barring that option, make enough noise so that one of your fellow passengers would do it?
On a completely different issue, I find it very unlikely that a 2 came into E.180 St on M Track and then proceeded to make local stops from there to Gun Hill Rd. It just ain't done, unless a GO is running and that one hasn't run in a long while.
I pulled, it didn't come out, so rather than look like a dick I figured I'd just wait until the doors on that side would open again. I was in no hurry anyway. As for why we came in on M track there was a not-in-service train on the local at E180.
I've seen small visible gaps on Redbird doors.
I don't know if the lack of a conductor can be blamed. There is about one such incident every other month in NYC that results in serious injury. Our door design and conductors are adept at trapping backpacks, handbags, baby stroller wheels and childrens' feet. The general reaction on this board has been to blame the victim or his parent for inattention and worse.
A casual review of some case law revealed that such incidents are not limited to MUDC cars. A surprising number of law suits were brought in the gate car days.
As a former CR for NYCTransit (now a TO), I can only wish that there were someway for some of you to ride with us as we go down the road just to see what really happens. In three years with Transit, I've watched people try to hold doors open with: their baby's heads, full coffe cups, wallets, backpacks and other assorted paraphenalia. I have to say it would be their fault if something happened, because the doors were so close to being closed that only these small items would stand a chance of working. I have also watched people get on a train with a carriage and leave it onboard while they ran upstairs to fetch their other child (If I didn't happen to see her on the stairs, would I have been charged with kidnapping?); get on a train not knowing their child wasn't 'right behind them' on the stairs; send a five-year old to hold the doors while they take their time; all thw hile trying to avoid the gobs of spit and the insults.
When I was offered the chance to move up front, I fairly leapt at it. No more dealing with the idiots face-to-face on a continuous basis. Now I only have to worry about the fools who play 'chicken' with the train; who need that 'great shot' for a student film, so take a black videocam, mount it on a black tripod and put it on the roadbed in the shadows. If I hit one of these people with the train, it ain't gonna bother me one little bit. And before anyone jumps at me, saying I'm like David's TO example, think again. I've received written compliments from passengers commending me on how I dealt with some situations; my co-workers know me as a nice quiet guy who will not put up with S*** from anyone; I know my job and do it well; after work, I come home and come visit here or at the Straphanger's Campaign where I can get picked on for fun instead of profit.
OK, enough of that. David, in your conversation with the TO, was there anything in your actions that might have made him think you were another over-reacting customer looking to make scene instead of someone with a legitimate concern? Other than that, I would be forced to agree with most of the rest here - he was an idiot, who should be reported for, if nothing else, his attitude. The customer, also, was an idiot - if the stations are one continuous platform, he would have better served himself waiting for the next station and walking back (much as he did anyway). The woman who yelled back - at least she had some guts; the rest of the mindless sheep probably still don't know what happened.
David, in your conversation with the TO, was there anything in your actions that might have made him think you were another over-reacting customer looking to make scene instead of someone with a legitimate concern?
I doubt it, but then with CTA employees you never really know. I think most CTA employees are decent folks, but there's a few who would consider mere eye contact an overreaction.
If I had confronted the T/O immediately after the incident, with my adrenalin rush still going in full swing, he would have legitimately seen me as somebody just trying to be an ass an cause a scene. Luckily, by the time I finally got to my stop and confronted him, I had been on the train about 40 minutes and had calmed down a bit. I thought I was firm, but level-headed and in control while confronting him, which I think is the most effective way to make a point. If I had gone up there cursing and screaming at him, he would have easily written me off as just another overly emotional, ill-tempered wacko. Besides, I was exhausted from a long week at work and was in no mood to start my weekend by getting into a pissing contest with this guy. I wanted to make him aware of what had happened, but while keeping the conversation as short and sweet as possible.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>> by the time I finally got to my stop and confronted him, I had been on the train about 40 minutes and had calmed down a bit. I thought I was firm, but level-headed and in control while confronting him <<<
With the added information that you did not talk to the T/O until forty minutes and many miles after the incident, his response is not so surprising. If you had said something before the train pulled out of the Lake Station, he could have gone back and investigated exactly what had happened.
When you said "You almost dragged a guy back at Washington. He was stuck in the doors and you started pulling out." and he said "I didn't see anything like that." What were you expecting? Unless he was deliberately trying to drag a passenger, he obviously did not see anything. Once you come back with "Well, it's your job to see it." you are accusing him of not doing his job. What did you expect him to reply? It is understandable why he would not want to continue the conversation no matter what your demeanor was. Since he knew nothing about the incident, nothing further he could say would be helpful to him if you were going to file a complaint about the incident, and at that point there was no practical way for the T/O to investigate the facts that you were alleging.
Therefore I would expect any T/O to react in a similar way to that situation, and I challenge the various T/Os and C/Rs who post here to tell how they would have handled the situation (passenger saying you did something which endangered another passenger 40 minutes ago) differently.
Tom
I wasn't able to get to the head of the train until it had gotten some distance away from downtown, as the train was packed with the evening rush hour crowd and it would have been impossible to walk through the train. It was difficult enough to walk through the train even as far north as Argyle, which is the stop before mine.
And I wasn't expecting him to investigate, since there was nothing on the train to investigate. I wouldn't have even remembered which set of doors were involved. I simply wanted him to know that he almost dragged somebody so that maybe he'll be more careful the next time he's closing the doors. (And no, he wasn't doing his job, because this incident wouldn't have happened if he was.)
To be honest, I really couldn't have cared less what sort of sarcastic comeback he had or anything else he might have said to me, since my only objective was to let him know what happened. I wasn't really interested in carrying on a conversation with the guy while an entire trainload of commuters sat there and waited.
It's easy to look back two days later and second-guess the whole thing, but I think I handled the situation as well as I could have under the circumstances, and without having the benefit of discussing my actions in committee beforehand.
-- David
Chicago, IL
After the 1991 accident on The Market-Frankford Line that resulted in a death of an elderly lady caught between the doors and being dragged off of The Girard Avenue platform, they have started to replace the flimsy rubber on the door edges of The Almond Joys with the hard rubber "tongue-and-groove" with a 2" stainless steel adapter and retrofitted with safety door interlocks. This should have been done during the '80s.
This doesn't happen to every car. Even though NYC has the 'tounge and groove', some redbirds still have the crappy rubber edge mating.
The same thing almost happened to my mother back in '86 at the 13th street station. She had my brothers and me board the train before her, and the second the conductor blew the whistle the T/O closed the doors, leaving her hand stuck in the door, the train actually took off and pulled her down the platform, thank god the station was packed full of people who punched and kicked on the train until it stopped. After we got off the conductor was rude about it, and my mother just cussed him out. She considered legal action but didn't take any.
I would guess the CTA won't thank you for pulling the emergancy stop, and will probally make more of that then what caused you top do it, so maybe the best course of action is to let it go.
Mr t__:^)
OPTO is an awful idea, but it is an idea that is extremely popular on systems world wide as it has created sizeable labor cost savings.
I worked OPTO for two picks(about 10 months) and I can say with total confidence that I will never work OPTO again. It's bad enough that one person is performing two jobs, but when you do it and you're tired as most T/O's do, it's a recipe for disaster.
One Sunday I was working OPTO on the G line. The crew office called me up to ask me to come in early, which I had agreed to considering the preferential treatment that I had been receiving. It's hard to say no when they do favors for you.
Anyway I was quite tired as I went to sleep at 4:30 am and reported to work at 11:15 am after the phone call. On the first trip down to Smith-9 Sts, I had arrived at Bedford-Nostrand and prepared to open the doors. At this stop, you open up on the left side of the train. I was so tired that I didn't notice that I was about to open up on the right side of the train with nothing but a wall. I turned the key to ON and hit the open button. At this time I immediately woke up with horror and realized what I had just done! Fortunately I had pressed the wrong open button. Instead of pressing the button on the right, I pressed the one on the left. Mind you that I had no problem staying awake after that down to Smith-9th and back again to Court Square. When I arrived at Court Square, I immediately booked off sick. I barely completed one round trip without risking unemployment, I wasn't about to risk doing four more round trips.
I am vehemently opposed to OPTO in any way, shape or form. And I'll never work a pick on it again.
I know that stop real well; i go there a lot. Motormen seem to have problems with that stop all the time. The G has all of it's other platforms on the motorman side, but not Bedford-Nostrand.
Frequently, T/O's take 10 seconds to open the doors, and then even longer to get the train moving after closing. OPTO isn't necessarily a bad idea, but if you're going to save money by not having conductors, then you can hire an extra operator or 2 with that extra money. Selfishness is what results in disaster, especially when you play with soemone's sleep hours.
I say you're a hero and should definitely report the incident. Don't feel guilty about the operator getting fired. Whatever punishment is merited in the system is not up to you. But if management doesn't know that incidents like this occur, they're not going to do anything to deter future reoccurences.
Knowing NOTHING about the windy city, what does this "red ball" do?
Does it open the door? Will the T/O lose indication? Will the train dump? Hate to see the train still move with the door open >G<.
In NYC you would have to pull the brake cord at one of the ends of the car and HOPE your not on a R142 that is more than 1/2 way out of the station or you ain't stopping nuttin.
CTA trains actually have two types of safety mechanisms that passengers can pull, both of which involve a small red ball:
1) The emergency brake, which works the same way as the cord on NYC subway trains. (Except that in Chicago it's impossible to "dump" the train, as CTA trains do not use air brakes.) However, the principle is the same; you pull the cord and the train comes to a very abrupt stop. The cord on CTA trains is located above and to the side of the storm door at the opposite end of the car from the operator's cab. However, the cords on CTA trains have no markings or signage indicating their function, so it's rather unlikely the average commuter would know to use it. (I only know because I watched Harrison Ford make use of it in The Fugitive.)
2) The second safety device is the one I used, and is one that I believe is fairly unique to Chicago, mounted in a small cove above each set of doors. It looks just like the regular cord, a red ball about 1.5" in diameter attached to the end of a small metal shaft. You yank on this red ball (or "pull the cherry" according to CTA slang), which has some sort of mechanical interface with the door mechanism. The doors unlock and pop open about four inches, allowing you to then slide the doors fully open by hand. This process doesn't dump the train, but it does set off an alarm in the operator's cab and prompts the operator to immediately stop the train. The door can then be closed again via the normal door controls. (It is also possible to close the doors by reaching into the little cove and activating some sort of switch or button, but so far I have yet to master that trick.) This door-release feature was incorporated onto all CTA rolling stock many years ago (I forget the exact year) after a streetcar collided with a gasoline truck on the South Side and caught fire. Scores of passengers were killed because they were unable to open the doors to escape the burning streetcar. Somebody with a better knowledge of Chicago transit history could probably say a lot more about that accident.
This evening was actually the first time I've ever seen the door-release mechanism used in an actual emergency. However, I've seen it used many other times and have even used it myself a few times in the past. The most common uses include: 1) CTA track workers being dropped off at a work site between stations, 2) People using it to exit a train when they couldn't get to the doors in time for their stop, 3) People using it to leave the train when the T/O takes too long to open the doors at a station, and 4) Skells using to exit a train after waking up and realizing they're on an empty train sitting in a station at the end of the line. I guess the biggest danger, aside from some drunk skell opening the doors and jumping off a fast-moving train, would be a drunk skell opening the doors and leaving the train while it's high up on an el. But so far I've never heard of any cases like this happening.
BTW, what is it about the R142's that would make stopping the train so difficult?
-- David
Chicago, IL
The R142s do not have the usual Emergency Brake Cord, which dumps the train when pulled. The PEHU (Passenger Emergency Handle Unit) will only dump the train if it (the train) is stopped in a station or within 600' of the leaving end of the station. At other times it will sound an alert in both the TO and CR positions. Unless it is reset beforehand, the emergency brakes will activate the next time the doors are opened. This is probably one of the smarter features on this train, since most of the reasons the cord usually gets pulled for really need the train to be in astation for aid to arrive.
What happens if someone is passing between cars that eh/she slips and is holding on for dear life and they try to stop the train, but the T/O desides to continue onto the next station and in the meanwhile the person slips and dies. There are many cases when a passenger needs to stop the train NOW!
See David's original post for what happens when you try to get someone to stop the train. Your scenario requires a caring New Yorker to actaully notice that someone crossing between cars has fallen down and is hanging on for his life. Plainly put - fat chance. As for crossing between the cars, Transit asks that you DON'T. If you still feel the need to, there are chains, hand holds and door handles to hold onto. USE them.
The streetcar accident you speak of happened on May 25, 1950 at 63rd and State Streets. Green Hornet 7078 hit a gasoline truck and was destroyed in the ensuing blaze which killed 33 people. It served as an organ donor of sorts, as its parts were used to rebuilt 7205. That car split a switch at State and Root on July 17, 1949 and wrapped itself around a lamppost. The door release feature came in the aftermath of that tragic accident. Our LRVs in Denver have emergency release levers for each individual folding door.
The actual cause of the accident was that 7078 split the switch at 63rd and State, hitting the gasoline truck. Since all Chicago PCC's had blinker doors, which have to be pulled in and pushed to the side to open, the passengers did not know how to open them. They tried to push outward, which failed.
Many other companies that had PCC's with blinker doors did nothing, but Capital Transit retrofitted all their PCC's that had blinker doors with outward folding doors.
Toronto's original PCC's came with outward folding doors, as did all new PCC's bought, but several groups of secondand cars came with binker doors, which were replaced as the cars were prepared for sevice in Toronto.
Some of the used PCCs the TTC bought that had blinker doors actually made it into service with them intact. They quickly were replaced due to concerns arising from the Chicago fire and the fact that they were apparantly quite drafty in wintertime.
Another interesting thing about the Toronto PCCs is that none of them had the horizontal bars blocking the area where the windows opened. I'm not sure if any of the used PCCs had them in their original cities, but if they did the TTC made sure to remove them when they were prepared for service in Toronto.
I had seen a picture somwhere of a ex-Louisville/Cleveland car in TTC Colors with blinker doors, minus couplers. The story I got was that the cars were rushed into service without a door retrofit because of a rush to get rid of the last 1300 ex-TRC cars. I didn't download it, don't remember where I saw it, or when it was taken. It had to be middle 1953, as Cleveland sold them to TCC in late 1952.
According to Lou Pursley's The Toronto Trolley Car Story, the A-11 and A-12 class were acquired in 1952. There is a picture on Page 116 of one of the A-12's with blinkers on the front and outward folding centers. The shot is very early, as the car bears the old TTC emblem. There are no couplers, but the front skirt is cut for the coupler. The Cleveland Pullmans (TTC A-11) came to Cleveland with the front and rear skirts cut for couplers, there are stories that the cars were originally ordered by Baltimore and the order was cancelled with 75 cars roughly complete (the Baltimore order was supposed to be for 90 cars) and Pullman was able to unload them on Cleveland and Boston.
The A-9 and A-10 cars came from Cincinatti in 1950 and appear to have had the doors replaced on delivery to TTC. They had blinkers in Cincinatti.
>>They had blinkers in Cincinatti.<<
You're half-right. The Cincinatti PCC's had blinker doors in the front, but had push-open "Fishbowl" type center doors.
There are two on Transit Toronto at the moment; this is the best one:
I gave James Bow's galleries a thorough going through and supplied him with some additional commentary for some of the pictures including this one where I gave him the information I knew about the blinker doors and absence of couplers.
I don't think there was such a huge rush to get the used PCCs out and running to displace TRC cars because the Yonge subway was going to open in 1954 and that would have finished them off for sure. However, the last TRC car was retired before then, and getting them retired probably was a factor to an extent.
All A12s and all A11s except for two that were done for testing purposes were not equipped with multiple unit couplers because the arrival of couplers was delayed. I don't know why the blinker doors weren't removed right away though, but my best guess is that they removed them at the time the couplers were installed.
With respect to Boston, I've heard that the streetcar drivers and the maintainance staff didn't like the all electric PCCs that they purchased from Pullman; the PCCs that they still use on the Ashmont-Mattapan line are wartime air PCCs which predate the all electric Pullmans. I don't know why they disliked the all electric PCCs that much although I am aware of a general complaint about the braking on the all electric PCCs not being as good as the braking on air PCCs.
-Robert King
That is a better picture, and certainly shows what I was talking about. The picture in Lou's book shows blinkers in front and folding at the center. He gives no mention in the 1961 book about the doors, either. The arrival date is early 1953 and that post-dates the removal of the ex-TRC cars. The Cleveland cars were bought because the TCC decided that it was better to buy PCC cars than convert Large Witts to one-man.
The shortage of couplers might have been the reason for the non-conversion of the doors. The cars might have been rushed into service before the instalation of MU controls, which differ from standard PCC controls. The cars had full front and rear skirts in Louisville (5 or 6 were actually delivered there, and a picture of a car running in Louisville has been posted on one of the web sites. TTC did cut the skirts, the pictures I've seen confirm that. The Pullman's skirts were cut for couplers, reportedly they had everything for MU excecpt couplers and drum switches when they arrived in Cleveland. CTS never ran them in trains. Baltimore would have, and Toronto certainly did.
The Boston all-electrics were the only all-electrics in Boston. Braking an all-electric is different than an air car. On a air car the brake is slightly released as the car stops to kill the "stonewall" effect. The shaft braking on an all-electric is very smooth and the brake pedal is held until the car stops. If you release the brake pedal on an all-electric, the brakes release. When SEPTA put all-electrics on the Woodland lines after the 1975 fire, they had had a number of roll-back accidents with all-electrics, as the operators, used to the lag an air car has when the brakes are released, forgot about the fast release of an all-electric.
The Boston cars weren't liked when they were singles, there was less love when the cars were equipped for MU. They spent most of their time on Huntington Avenue, where our President of BSM ran them during his Boston College days. He never had any problem running them, but then, being a fan knew that all-electrics are different than air cars.
I've never had problems with the all electric PCC braking, so I wasn't sure what other people were complaining about. Similarly, I've never had problems bringing a train of Gloucsters to a smooth stop, and Gloucsters only have air applied friction brakes (like an air PCC does after the dynamic falls off if the track brake isn't being used). You just have to keep in mind what type of brakes the vehicle you're operating has and how they should be used for best results.
On Peter Witts, 2766 is going to be rebuilt sooner rather than later as there is pressure from some politicians and the TTC's marketing department to have it out running in September for the TTC's 80th birthday. The lady from marketing I spoke with last week didn't appear too keen on the idea that it be only on static display when it could be running especially its restoration has been approved by the Commission and money budgeted for it a while ago.
Our three ex-Boston air cars have an emergency valve in a glass faced box aft of the RH center doors to dump the air in the doors only, but will also set off systems to brake the car. When the air is dumped, the outward folding doors are fairly easy to pull open. You can operate the car with the doors cutout, in case of faults in the system, but you'd never operate a car like that in service.
Next time I go up to Buffalo to visit our ex-Shaker Hts. cars, I'll have to see how they worked it out on emergency escape vs doors. These cars are all-electric with outward folding doors, the same as their sisters in Newark.
All-electrics also have a door balance in emergency. I'm not
sure exactly how it works as I'm more familiar with air cars,
but the idea is when the car is in emergency (via the foot pedals
on a single car or the Emergency Relay on MU cars) an electrical
signal is sent to the doors which causes them to balance, allowing
evacuating passengers to push them open.
The Kansas City PCC's (world famous despite there were 160 all-electrics) originally had the "jailbars". Toronto removed them from theirs, but Philly kept them on theirs. I think Cincinatti had them as well.
I didn't know there was a switch at 63rd and State. OTOH, if the 63rd St. line went that far, it's understandable. I drove through that intersection in 1991, and back in the 60s we used to enter the Skyway at State St. IIRC State St. dips down somewhat, as it ducks beneath that massive railroad viaduct cutting diagonally over both it and 63rd St. I immediately thought about that accident, realizing that was where it happened.
Even after that tragedy, Chicago's PCCs kept their blinker doors. Not long after that, CTA began sending the Green Hornets to St. Louis Car Co. for conversion to L cars. The only reason they accepted the Green Hornets in the first place was because the contract could not be canceled. CSL placed the order, and CTA came into being afterwards.
Say what you want, but a gasoline truck is about the worst thing for a streetcar to hit.
>>> Say what you want, but a gasoline truck is about the worst thing for a streetcar to hit. <<<
Not quite! In Munich, in 1962 a C-47 aircraft crashed onto a street hitting a streetcar. No survivors from the streetcar. Nothing but a charred and twisted skeleton of the frame of the streetcar on the evening newscast.
Tom
Yes, that would be worse.
Actually, the R142 cars have an emergency brake cord behind a small door located at each end of the car. It is clearly marked as an emergency brake. The principle behind this is the same as the covers covering the brake cord in other IRT cars. Open the door, the alarm sounds, pull the cord.
But the passenger brake is almost useless. An alarm goes off in the cab, and the train dumps next time the doors open, unless part of the train is still in the station.
PATCO and the SEPTA MFL do a good job with OPTO. PATCO has all isnald platforms and short trains. The operator sticks his head out the window and dosen't come back inside until all the doors and closed and the platform is clear. The MFL has the closed circut TV cameras that have an RF feed into the cab.
Likewise in Baltimore. At places where the train is "wrong railed", the T/O is required to get out of the seat (we have full width cabs on the operating ends, non-operating ends the door folds to close the operating position off.) and make sure that the doors close properly and nothing is caught before taking power, or if in full ATO, pushing the green lighted button to start.
All platforms are center, with the operating position on the left. The only place we "wrong rail" is at Johns Hopkins or Owings Mills, where the trains are crossed over to the inbound track before the platforms.
Sometimes it seems people care more about being on-time than helping a fellow man. Shame on the T/O, but blame can also be pointed to people who did not pull the red ball. Until people actually realize they should look out for their fellow man, conductors are needed for operation of the doors, as well as dealing with passengers. OPTO is just another way for agencies to cut back safety, so some wealthy people can buy another Mercedes.
I assume the T/O's in Chitown have a union - this is a CLASSIC example of why the rulebook should be followed and the T/O should wait for a complete closeup before moving the train regardless of the time table. But of course, the T/O will go down in flames while the policy continues in effect. Sometimes it just don't pay to get up.
1. Absolutely report the T/O to CTA. His attitude alone is unacceptable in such an occupation.
2. As to OPTO, I was once nearly dragged by R1/9's on the BB @ 135th when the C/R "buzzed" the T/O to go even though the doors were closed over my arm. So much for two employees.
3. as we all know, DC, BART, etc have been OPTO from the get-go. The newer systems have "smarter" doors which sense blockage.
4. You were right the woman was a fool.
DC was designed to be NOPTO. We have an operator for this exact type of instance and had a similar instance sometime in the past year.
A lady, somehow, got her foot stuck in between the platform and the train car at Silver Spring. This was during the time that the trains were all in manual operation. The T/O closed the doors, and since Silver Spring is an island platform, went back to the console on the right side of the train without making sure there were no people in the way. Train left, woman fell (I think she was killed but I can't tell you for certain), operator didn't know until she got to Union Station or Metro Center.
I am not saying OPTO is bad. It sounds like an instance of human failure.
I think OPTO should only be used if the train is ATO. That way, the T/O can look out the window and not worry about getting the train to move.
>>> OPTO here in Chicago is a disaster waiting to happen.... I've observed that most CTA operators merely take a quick glance down the platform, push the lever to close the doors, and then quickly duck back over to their console before the doors are even fully closed <<<
I think blaming OPTO for the negligence or poor training of the operators is misplaced. After all, if you had a C/R who took just a quick glance and pushed the door closing buttons without assuring himself that no one was caught in the doors you would have the same result.
Is Chicago converting to OPTO from having conductors? If so, it is possible that the T/Os who previously did not have to look out for passengers see their job as just moving the train, and do not realize the importance of checking the doors. It is also possible that the CTA has not adjusted schedules to allow the extra time needed for the T/O to make the proper checks. Here in Los Angeles, where the transit has always been OPTO, the T/Os are very conciencious about checking the doors after they have closed them.
Ideally, there should be monitors in the cab which would receive pictures from a station mounted camera which would show the side of the train as it pulled out of the station to check for anyone being dragged.
Tom
Chicago had conductors on all lines up until a couple years ago. When the system first went to OPTO, I noticed that T/O's were much more conscious about going "by the book" and keeping a close eye on the platforms before pulling out. However, this also had the effect of greatly increasing the dwell time at each station and had very many people upset. It's a bit of a trade-off. Now they seem to have gotten comfortable in their new roles as T/O's, and slipped into some rather bad habits in order to speed up the dwell time.
OPTO may work fine in places like Atltanta and Washington, but these are cities with much newer and larger stations with (usually) shorter trains that were designed specifically for OPTO. Also, I'd surmise that these stations don't have nearly the rush-hour crush crowds that places like NYC and Chicago have on their transit systems, and they're not dealing with old, crowded stations with numerous visibility obstructions such as curved platforms or columns along the platform edges.
Conductors would certainly be no cure-all, but I still think the CTA should have conductors on all trains at least during rush hours, as well as give T/O's some reminders on how to do their jobs.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The T/O is at fault here and should be reported.
Now, exactly why could you push through the crowd to get off the train at Lake but not get to the red ball at Washington? Not to say your not doing so was a bad thing but despite that announcement "Please take not of the evacuation procedure, located throughout the car," the average commuter doesn't know you are a railfan who knows how the train works to some extent.
Also, doesn't the train automatically announce the run number at some point along the route? When I took the Orange line back from the Loop to Midway, it said "Welcome aboard Orange Line run 705 to Midway. The next stop is..." as we left the State/Lake stop.
Now, exactly why could you push through the crowd to get off the train at Lake but not get to the red ball at Washington?
I got up from my seat when I finally realized the idiots near the door weren't going to be of any help, and by the time I got to the ball and pulled it, the train was almost at Lake. The two stops are very close together, so we're only talking about a few seconds here. If I had known the people next to the door were idiots, I would have jumped up immediately.
Not to say your not doing so was a bad thing but despite that announcement "Please take not of the evacuation procedure, located throughout the car," the average commuter doesn't know you are a railfan who knows how the train works to some extent.
The door-release handles are plainly visible and are clearly marked as such, and anybody who has ridden the CTA on a regular basis will have seen these door-release handles being used at some point. It's not uncommon for them to be used by CTA staff and even some passengers.
Also, doesn't the train automatically announce the run number at some point along the route?
Yes, but only a couple times during the course of the route. I was listening for it, but it may have been annouced while I was passing between cars or otherwise unable to hear it. Also, it was my subtle way of letting the T/O know that his bosses would know exactly whose watch this incident occurred under when I reported it. (Notice that I asked for the run number and wrote it down before I told him about the incident.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I can't remember the door releases. I rode in June of 2000 and was paying more attention to the train operation, automated announcements, station names, and right of way, among other things. I only glanced at the evacuation procedure and did not take notice of the red balls, mainly because it didn't mean anything to me.
My Orange Line train did announced the run number after leaving State/Lake IIRC. It would make sense for such an announcement to be made after either Lake or Grand or maybe near Addison. Unfortunately, I can only look at a map and speculate the point at which people stop getting on in large numbers and start detraining in large numbers. On the orange line, it would make sense to make this announcment as the train leaves Roosvelt and the last stop along Wabash Avenue (I can't remember the name now).
And while I didn't say this earlier, I agree the doors closing announcement on the CTA is pointless. When I first rode from Midway to the loop, I noticed the annnouncement wasn't linked to the doors by about Western. I believed I asked the T/O this on the train back to Midway and she explained why it is that way but it was such a stupid reason, I can't remember it.
The other thing I noticed that was odd about the CTA chime is that the chime is before the man says "Doors are closing." I have never seen that anywhere else.
The only problem with the operator I can see is attitude. There is a matter of trying to stay on time which I can from 12 years of rail transit experience say isn't always easy. Schedules are close and minor delays add up. BUT this is not to say safety should be compromised. OPTO on trains as big as CTA's especially during busy hours stinks. At night with 2 or 4 cars OK if schedules allow but I still feel somebody should be there for doors and passenger assistances and the other person to run the train. That should be his/her only responsibility.
OPTO works fine on the MBTA Blue Line and there should be a $50 fine for try to get on or off a train after the door chims ring.
A very cheap and effective safety measure to reduce the probability of such accidents would be to install a mirror at the front of the platform, so the T/O can see the back of the train without having to get up. He would have no excuse not to check the doors.
This would help quite a bit, but the mirrors loose quite a bit of effectiveness in stations where the platform is not on the driver's cab side of the train. Otherwise, it's a good idea that's been used for years in Toronto, and London, England, who use closed circuit TV monitors in place of mirrors.
I think chimes are stupid, everyone should go with a little voice that says "The Doors Are Closing" like Portland's MAX.
Two items have been in the news lately: Brooklynites ranting about the G, and the Jets and NY 2012 trying to get a stadium in Manhattan. Putting the two together, I had an outside the box idea.
New York has a great stadium site on Randalls Island, where Downing Stadium now stands. The problem is you can't get there by transit, and the road capacity is insufficient to say the least (not that anyplace can clear an 80,000 seat stadium in less than an hour).
Perhaps one could put third rails on the New York Connecting Railroad, punch a connection into the Sunnyside Yard, and run the R over the Hell Gate Bridge. Plenty of capacity there. You'd cut it off on Randall's island, run in over a new short bridge into the Harlem Yards in the Bronx, then elevated to a spot where you could build a terminal connecting to the subways and MetroNorth. And you'd add an inter-modal station, with LIRR and AMTRACK service, at Sunnyside.
With the other G subway connections, plus connections to all the commuter railroads, millions would be just one short transfer and a quick ride from the stadium. Normal G service is just half trains once every 10 minutes, of course, but off peak during major events you could put "G" signs on some of those full length "F" trains and run 25 tph to the stadium. The G could thus move 30,000 per hour to Randalls Island FROM EACH DIRECTION. With the ferry industry growing, there would be plenty of opportunity for boat service to and RI Stadium as well. When there is no event, normal G service would make the park on RI accessible.
Of course many people would drive. But signs mounted on all major roadways could warn people to stay away from the Upper FDR, Harlem River, Lower Deegan, Upper BQE, and Grand Central west of LGA, as well as the Triboro, when the beginning or end of an event is likely to cause a traffic jam. Just to keep people away, the toll could rise to $10 for 90 minutes before an event begins and 30 minutes before and 60 minutes after it ends -- double without EZ-Pass. The high toll would be collected in lieu of a parking fee, eliminating the parking lot traffic jam so common in stadia.
A stadium on level ground has got to be cheaper than one in an active rail yard. The added tolls/parking fee during events could be used to defray the cost of the G extension and stadium. And if the City really does extend the Flushing Line, the new convention center on the west side could be topped by massively taxpaying hotels rather than a tax eating stadium. We need the hotels.
Just a thought.
The MTA is very smart. If even one station served by the G only was ADA compliant the cutback to Court Square could have been thwarted on that basis (disabled pax could no longer get from the G to the Archer Ave stations). But since the MTA never made any G stations (even Metropolitan/Lorimer with the recent rehab) ADA compliant they don't have to worry about this. I always wondered why no elevators were put in there...
Since a lot of people here seem to have questions about short turn trains and lay-ups, I'm gonna write here all the short-turns I know (not off hour-service).
1-137 st? I'm not sure if they still run this
2-No short turns
3-No short turns, though during Lennox Const., 3's went express from 96th to 137th
4-no short turns
5-they don't really have any short turns, but then again, they never seem to know if they're going to Flatbush, New Lots Av., Utica or Atlantic.
6-E-177th St. Parkchester. Local 6 trains terminate here while 'thru exp trains go all the ay to the end of the line (Pelham)
7-111th St. I don't know if anyone here has seen this, but on Game nights for the Mets, some stop at Shea (they should just run 'em all the way)
9- no short turns
A-Some morning rush hour A trains terminate at Dyckman and then run again during the evening rush. This is mostly the Rockaway Pk. trains, but a couple others do this also. Stops along the Rockaway Shuttle Admonish riders that rush hours A trains from rockaway pk. only run to 59th. st., Manhattan. I've never seen this, can anyone confirm?
B-no short turns
C-" " "
D-" " "
E-" " "
F- Sometimes, peak direction express service is used, and F trains terminate at Kings Hwy.
G-No short turns
J-" " "
L- B'way east NY used to be atlantic.
M-No Short Turns
N- Shoutbound trains turn at Whitehall
Q-No Short Turns (rumored some run up broadway to 57/7, not really a short turn)
R-Southbound trains go to Whitehall
Z-no short turns
Anyone who has more info, please add it.
The 4 and 5 in the AM rush: some end at Bowling Green.
7 has daily short turns at Shea.
The 'R to Whitehall' often ends up terminating at 14th after running express down B'way.
Put Ins:
R at Canal and Whitehall.
F at Kings Highway and somewhere north of 4th ave (I see trains run lite from KH to 4th ave on the express track).
A at 59th to Rockaway Park.
5 at Bowling Green in the PM rush. First few to Dyre, rest to 238.
7 at 111.
All F NB putins that run express from Coney switch to the local track at 4th ave interlocking. I'm not sure where they beging making local stops. I always assumed Smith-9th
[I'm not sure where they begin making local stops.]
Generally, those "F" put-ins begin service at Jay Street.
I've never heard in years of an F express that wasn't due to a disruption.
Not in service. During the PM rush, half of the Queens bound F trains don't go into service until they get to Jay St. They use the center express track and the unused express tracks north of Church all the way to Jay St, non stop, coming out of the yard at Ave. X.
<<< During the PM rush, half of the Queens bound F trains don't go into service until they get to Jay St. They use the center express track and the unused express tracks north of Church all the way to Jay St, non stop, coming out of the yard at Ave. X. >>>
What time would one see these trains running down the unused express tracks in Brooklyn?
Appreciate any info. Thanks!
Jim (RailBus)
1:30 PM onwards
I've seen some as late as 4:30 PM. They must have a lot.
I thought they laid up about 12 sets in the Ave X yard during the day...
Well, not that early.
They start around 3:20 and continue for a few hours.
...Running 'express' on the local track north of 4th ave...
True, but only because of the Bergen St. fire. Normally, they'd stay on the express track all the way to Jay St.
Nope, Jay St.
<>
No. I ride up b'way everyday, and everyday i see R: Broadway local to Whitehall St.
Coming back from Broad St. after the AM rush, most Z trains drop out at Eastern Pkwy. and layup to ENYD.
1 runs out of 137 St only during GOs that close down upper B'way.
3 - During the Invert Rehab, 3s ran LOCAL from 72 St to 137/B'way during the AM rush when 2 trains were laying up north of 96 St. At other times, it ran express to 96 St, then local to 137.
During current Livonia Ave el reconstruction, midday 3 service terminates at Utica Ave. There are also four 3 trains that come out of 137 St on the AMs and return there on the PMs.
4 - During middays, 4 Service terminates at Atlantic Ave.
7 - There are two or three PM trips that terminate at Shea every weekday, as well as AM and PM trips that terminate at 111 St and relay to the southbound or lay-up to Corona.
5 - Somewhere between 1000 and 1100, there should be two 5 trains that terminate at Atlantic Ave (sometimes they will terminate at Utica) and lay-up on the Manhattan-bound express track. During the AM rush, there are two that relay at Utica Ave as well as one 2 train that relays and becomes a 5 for the trip uptown. Towards the end of the AM rush, there should be five or six 5 trains that will either terminate at Utica or at New Lots (depending on how the road has been that morning) and lay-up at Livonia Yard
E - trains sometimes ends at Union Turnpike at the ends of rush hours
N - even though the signs on the express track say N (and R) trains go to Queens from this platform (those that turn at Whitehall), the short N runs only go to Canal.
Hi,
Over the years I've used different airport mass transit options including:
*the NY JFK Train to The Plane,
*MARTA in Atlanta,
*the Airlink Train/Bus NJ Transit service for Newark Airport
* Harbor Ferry from Boston/Logan over to the Aquarium area of downtown Boston.
But my vote for best rail line linking the city to the airport goes to Philadelphia's Septa (R-1) Airport Line. For those that have never experienced this service here are my reasons for endorsing it so strongly:
1) Track runs parallel to the auto roadway for departure area. The train stops at all major terminals with minimal walking distance to an escaltor up to terminal/ticketing area, especially helpful with luggage.
2) Catching the train after a flight is equally easy. Follow the signs for Septa, electronic signs tell you how many minutes to the next train (typically 20-30 minute intervals) and you're on your way.
2) Runs virtually express (one stop in between) from the airport to the major center city stations connecting to virtually every other Septa line to suburban Philadelphia, West Trenton and Trenton stations.
3) The airport train fare is $6 and if you are coming from the Langhorne area for instance (where Reedman Chevrolet and Sesame Place is) it's cheaper than the gas, the hassle of passing thru downtown Philly on the way to the airport as Phila. Int'l is 10 miles south of downtown.
4) Now here's the pay off for northern New Jersey and even NYC residents. Sometimes you can get a significantly lower fare from Philadelphia than the NY airports in certain markets.
If the savings is say $250 or more on a ticket, you can spend at most $20 each way to get from Penn Station in NY or Newark to Philly airport. Take the NJ Transit Northeast Corridor line to Trenton (about $16 RT off peak)and change for the Septa line. Pay the conductor the fare onboard, and ask how and where to get to the airport line changing at a downtown Philly station. From Penn Station NY to Philly airport, approximately 3-3.5 hours with good connections. Again, maybe worth it if you can snag a significantly lower airfare, especially given Philly is a hub for US Air overseas. This may also be helpful with last minute e-saver fares if you subscribe to this practice or bid on fares on Priceline.com and they ask for alternate airports.
Anyone else share my enthusiasm for Septa's airport rail line? If only NY could have planned such a wonderful system for LaGuardia or JFK......
West End
The fare is only $5 to ride the R1 to Centre City from the Airport and $6 from some of the outlying zones. You can buy Zone 6+ tickets for through CC travel. I don't know how they work, but the TVM's have options up to Zone 12. Whenever my dad would fly into or out of PHL, he would take the R1 and then PATCO. Then one time I flew out of PHL I took the R1. Very fast, very plesant. The best part is you don't have to deal with I-95, but it's probably more expensive than driving, unless you plan to park.
Not sure about the cheaper than driving arguement: Here's why...
Suppose you live 40 miles north of Philly International in Bucks County. If someone drives you, that's 80 miles round trip or 4 gallons of gas worth $6 alone at 1.50 a gallon. Let's face it, if you are catching a flight that requires you to travel through downtown on I-95 during either the morning or evening rush hour, it can take well over an hour to travel that 40 mile distance.
Best bet, have a friend drop you at any Septa station, if you are in NJ, have them drop you at West Trenton or Trenton and spend the $5 or $6.
In comparison, if you try to get to Newark Airport on NJ Transit, you pay the regular one way fare to Newark/Penn Station, then you have to buy a separate ticket for $4 for the AIRLINK express bus which requires you to haul your luggage up the stairs and outside to a exhaust fume ridden waiting area. Then the bus is at the mercy of traffic approaching the airport and drops you at those bus lane holding areas by each terminal.
It's still a deal to pay $15 to do this from Princeton/Trenton as opposed to a $55 shuttle van service, but NJ Transit needs to simplify the process. What's the latest on the rail connection to Newark Airport? When is it due to open, will it simply connect to Newark Penn and what will the cost be?
Septa's airport service is a pleasure, especially once you get to the airport. It's better than Atlanta's Marta, in that Marta's entrance to the station is at the furthest end from one baggage claim area, you have to buy a token ahead of time to board which is not fun if you are juggling luggage and it's pretty much a local service stopping at many stops before reaching the downtown stations (Peachtree Center, etc.)
But it does win on the frugal side, tokens are what, $2 tops to downtown Atlanta?
Excellent mass transit to a major airport is a major plus.
Oh yes, there's still talk of making Trenton/Mercer Airport a medium size airport with a major carrier. The latest airline mentioned to serve them is AirTran (the old Value Jet), Southwest Airlines pulled out of negotiations and there is a ton of local community opposition due to noise and traffic. However, the airport is only 2 miles or so from the West Trenton station, so a good candidate for decent mass transit connections if it ever becomes a secondary airport like an Islip in Long Island.
Please return your seats to their upright and locked positions as we land at Bangor International (Steven King's Langolier Airport, great movie, catch it sometime!)
West Trenton West End Express
What about WMATA?
The yellow line is only a 10 minute ride to the airport from L'Enfant Plaza and 15 to Gallery Place. From those two stations, its only a matter of minutes to any other station on the system. The blue line also serves the airport but the trip to DC is about 3-5 minutes longer.
but that's only the national airport, not the international airport, and you have to go to union station and take the MARC to the BWI station. Then you've got to take the shuttle which doesn't really run very well in my opinion.
BWI is Baltimore's airport, not Washington's.
Dulles is on the other hand and now has express MetroBus service directly from downtown on the 5A. I have yet to ride this route. It runs approximately once an hour 7 days a week stopping only at L'Enfant Plaza, Rosslyn, Herndon P&R, and Dulles.
Are there plans to add any new stations when the International and Commuter terminals open?
There will be a new stop for the new Terminal 1 (international) but I do not believe there are any plans to extend service to the new domestic terminal (Terminal F). Part of the difficulty is the way the roadways are configured past Terminal E - arrival and departure roads converge at this point, thus the available R/W isn't there unless the roadways move.
I agree that SEPTAs airport service is of a very high calibre.
It is a great deal for $5 and better if you consider that a SEPTA day pass gives you one regional rail ride to or from Center City. That pass only costs $5. Essentially you pay for the airport ride and the trolleys, subways and buses are free for the rest of the day!
I do share your enthusiasm for the SEPTA Airport Service and have used it several times since it started.
Other noteworthy existing train to plane connections that I have tried are in:
Chicago O'Hare (not bad),
Chicago-Midway (walk is a little bit long with bags and the trip downtown gets a little long with all the intermediate stops),
Cleveland (been there a long time)
Washington-NATIONAL (Reagan as it is called now WHICH in my opinion is probably the best when all things are considered)
Baltimore - BWI (not great with the long wait for some cramped little bus shuttle). and
Altanta (Right up there behing National, works great except when the crowds get heavy as they usually do, but as a mass transit supporter I suppose I shouldn't whine about this point)
There is also a very convenient one at South Bend to the electrified CSS&SB line which is actually closer than the rental cars to the terminal, but it doesn't really serve much unless you happen to use this route to get to Chicago, for some strange reason.
The planned stop at Harrisburg Airport may eventually become noteworthy train to plane, if the Harrisburg Commuter Rail service that is being talked about a little bit seriously comes to fruiting. Otherwise the six or seven Amtrak trains that would stop there each day in each direction won't really be worth that much.
And the Amtrak (MBTA?/RIDOT) Providence Airport Station might really become high on this list as well.
For BWI (and the train), take the Light Rail from BWI to Penn Station for Amtrak and MARC. Conversly, take MARC/ATK from DC to Baltimore, then Light Rail from Penn Station to BWI.
or take the FREE shuttle bus from BWI to the BWI/ATK, MARC station
I agree that the Airport line is one of SEPTA's best offerings but the $5 price could be lower (it was intentionally set at the highest zone fare). With the new jobs available both at the Marketplace within the airport and new office buildings out on Bartram Ave (just across I-95) the line has gained many daily commuters. Of course, the better option for the office buildings is to jump off at the 'temporary' Eastwick station and catch a bus from there.
The signs advising the next train time is a bit amusing. The last time I arrived at our airport, my flight came in at 1:15 AM (and, yes, it was scheduled that way). It was a bit of a chuckle to see the sign display a 'next train 6:09 AM' message at that ungodly hour!
Five dollars isn't bad compared to how much it would cost to park a car at the airport for a week. I think airport employees should get a really big discount, though.
Mark
Five dollars isn't bad compared to how much it would cost to park a car at the airport for a day. When I've used the airport train, my wife and I were the only airline passengers using the service; all the other passengers looked like airport employees.
A reverse commuting success, and as an afterthought!
The price is cheap compared to the parking fees, but it's still amazing how many cabs still carry fares between 30th St and the Airport. Not having taken a cab for some time, I believe this fare is somewhere in the neighborhood of $20, so $5 still looks good to me!
The comparison is to couples or families who fly, which is often the case. The train fare increases directly with the number of passengers, while the cab fare or parking price starts to effectively decrease as the number of passengers increases. This is why I think the revision in fare to a Zone 2 or Zone 3 would make more sense.
It is really a great line. And what's even better is that it's supposedly almost always on time about 99% or so, and if it's more than 15 minutes late, the ride is free. What I like about the R1 schedules is that they have a layout of the zone system, quite helpful if you are using any other regional rail line.
For the tourists and this is my first time on SEPTA types. No other regional rail line goes to the airport, any other major airport, or any place of interest unless you can't walk thru the CBD.
Well, there aren't any other airports in the area, except for the northeast airport. Also, I don't really think the Regional Rail was meant for tourism, just as commuter rail for commuters. In Center City you can connect to other division rail lines to go to some points of interest, and there are many routes like the 76 that take you to places like the Zoo and art museum. Also, don't forget about Phlash, the route that was created for tourists.
>>> But my vote for best rail line linking the city to the airport goes to Philadelphia's Septa (R-1) Airport Line <<<
It has been quite awhile since I have been there, but my vote would go to the Frankfurt Main airport where you can go directly from the terminal to catch not only commuter trains to the city, but mainline trains to anywhere in the country, and beyond.
Tom
Guess we should sub divide this into Domestic versus International travel.
Speaking of International, that will still be a limitation of the new JFK Airtrain service. If all it's going to do is connect you to Howard Beach station or whatever it is and then you have to venture on the A train to make it to midtown Manhattan where most tourists are headed, it diminishes the user friendly component.
A rail link that allows a person that has never been to that city to go directly to the downtown area from the airport without having to stress out over the newness of a strange place is the answer.
This is where Philly, Atlanta, Washington, etc. will always have a leg up on New York.
At that was at least one advantage of the old train to the plane JFK express in that although you had to transfer to a bus, you knew that it was all one line designed to get you from the CBD to the airport.
Bye!
It looks like we may see a heavy coastal snowstorm ride up the coast.
Models and patterns point to the storm staying offshore enough that precip stays all snow, even along the coast.
Heavy blinding snow with strong winds is likely Sunday night and Monday, with a foot of snow looking likely.
I'm sure the folks at NYCTA will issue their plan. Probably the highest weather alert, all trains will be stored underground and surface or elevated lines suspended. I doubt the LIRR or LI Bus will have service either. It looks like a real mess.
This time I'm distributing notices in ADVANCE of the snowfall to my north shore neighboors, making sure sidewalks are shoveled.
With some people saying this storm may be as severe as the infamous '96 blizzard, it's gonna be hell to get around without a car. Especially in "what's a shovel" Sea Cliff.
I just hope subways and buses aren't affected for days. It's gonna be a mess. :-(
Yep. The pieces are coming together. A strong disturbance over mexico and a stationary low over canada will come together with the low over the south to form a big storm. The big question right now, is how far north is gets. Philly looks like ground zero right now. The coastal low will stall (looks like off of NJ) because the canadian one, that retrograded, will hand off it's energy to it, and the coastal will have to wait for it. Pressure in the coastal could drop to 960mb's which would mean extreme wind. Coastal flooding and beach arrosion will be a major factor. We could see 2 feet from this, sunday night into Monday and Tuesday.
NWS has issued a Winter Storm Watch for our area, and that will most likely be upgraded to a Winter Storm Warning, tonite or tomorrow, and probably a Blizzard warning in the storm. This shouldn';t be taken lightly.
BTW, some models have us slammed. I think the hpc has over 3 inches of qpf, with a ratio of 1:10 that would mean over 2 feet.
we gotta watch this. This could be snowier tahn 96 and stronger than 93 (I think the pressure there dropped to 960mb's)
Looks like a humdinger. In my first month at the TA, I read through the "Winter Operations" policy instruction and, more recently, read a piece on snow in the recent TA Newsletter. The Department of Subways is very proud that it didn't get shut down in the 12 inch snow. There was an article on the TAs new anti-winter equipment. Let's see how they handle a mega-blizzard. Go Team!
The timing is just like 1996 -- start mid-day Sunday, snow through Monday. As I recall, no one went to work on Monday, everyone just shoveled.
On Tuesday we thought about going to work, but decided against it. The city was still shut down, though the TA was running some service on underground lines. The F was a one train shuttle from Church to 4th, with a connection to the underground 4th Avenue line. You couldn't even get on a train, they were so crowded and infrequent.
On Wednesday we walked down to 4th Avenue and took a packed train to work. The Brighton and Sea Beach were still knocked out, and the F was still limited to a shuttle. Things didn't get back to normal on the subway until Thursday. Local streets in Brooklyn didn't get plowed until a January thaw melted much of the snow two weeks later.
Oh well, it might just be another foot. The TA can handle that fine.
As of noon Sunday, the TA will move to a Plan IV. Everything will be moved underground and the Emergency Command Center will be activated.
On my way home from work this morning, along the Eastern Pkwy express tracks there was:
Two: #3 trains
One: #4 train
One: #2 train
Im sure there are more to follow.
Under plan IV, will the F run through, or just as a shuttle?
The good news is the forecasters say the storm is heading straight for NYC. That will make it stronger, but will turn some of the snow to sleet and rain, then back to snow. Now they are saying 6 to 12 inches, not 24 to 30 inches,in the city, with the northern sububs getting socked.
If that holds, school will be cancelled, but I gotta go to work.
All lines will run normally, weather permitting of course. The F should be ok between 179st and Church ave at the very least.
THEY are now saying no more than 3-5 inches by tuesday mostly rain, mostly hype.
Peace,
ANDEE
Who is they? I'm still hearing anywhere between 1 and 2 feet.
NY1 reporting it live right now
Peace,
ANDEE
But NOAA Radio is not saying the same thing, nor is accu-weather.
-Hank
I've been listening to News Radio 88 all morning and they are not reporting a downgrade, at least not yet. It may have to do with the fact that Todd Glickman isn't on this weekend.
The only good thing about SNOOZERADIO 88 is Todd. When he's not on it's not worth listening to for anything, IMO. This is what happens with deregulation, the same company owning both news stations in NY, disgusting.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yup, I'm not working (at least on the radio). I'm at my office at MIT catching up on the 500+ emails that have accumlated during my two-week trip to Asia!
Since this is SubTalk and not WeatherTalk (there is one!), I won't dwell on this: Just remember that it ain't over until it's over. This will be a very close call between a very nasty blizzard and a run-of-the-mill winter mess. A few miles will make a BIG difference in this one. Be prepared for the worst and hope for the best. And may all your subway trips be at the STORMFAN WINDOW.
Here in Boston, we're much more likely to have a nasty storm. I'll be coming into the city on my usual MBTA commuter train tomorrow morning, and will report on how the MBTA is handling the storm.
Hell, the Catholic Schools in Brooklyn and Queens have already decided to shut down for Monday AND Tuesday. If the storm passes, I hope they can re-boot for Tuesday.
All very iffy. In 1996, Brooklyn was hit the hardest, with less snow further in land. This time, our location by the ocean might spare us.
Which,of course means us poor sops up here in Orange County better start hitchin' up the sleds and dogs...lol EVERY storm this year has hit US hard.....
"Which,of course means us poor sops up here in Orange County better start hitchin' up the sleds and dogs...lol EVERY storm this year has hit US hard"
The furthur upstate you are, the less you will get according to the local weather here. This is a coastal thing, the closer you are to the coast, whether it be New Jersey or Long Island, the worse it will get.
Bill "Newkirk"
Todd, how will Long Island fare? Will we get dumped on here in Sea Cliff while Wantagh just has a little mess?
Yo Todd.
Just 2 questions. What MBTA Commuter Train line you have to take to get to Boston? Do you ever been on the Bi-Level cars everytime you go to Boston?
Dominick Bermudez.
My regular line is the Lowell line into North Station. Bi-levels do not run on this side. All of the bi-levels are on the south side (into South Station), as that's where the larger crowds are. Occasionally I take the Attleboro/Providence line in, and get to ride the bi-levels.
My regular line is the Lowell line into North Station. Bi-levels do not run on this side. All of the bi-levels are on the south side (into South Station), as that's where the larger crowds are.
Are there clearance problems with using bi-levels into North Station, or is it just because of lower ridership?
There are no clearance problems on the north side. In fact, for a brief period two years ago, we had a few bi-levels on this side, when North Station platforms were cut short for construction. It's just a ridership issue.
Max train length on the north side is seven single level cars. On the south side, max train length is eight cars, seven of which are bi-levels (one single level 500-series car is required per trainset to provide lav service).
I live on the Fitchburg line and I have NOT seen ANY KAWASAWKI BI LEVELS. BUT the franklin line and the Framingham/Worcester line have bi levels. I guess A kawasawki bi level can't fit into North Station.
Kawasaki bi-levels can fit in North Station. About three years ago, the platforms were shortened due to Big Dig work, and there were two trainsets of four cars (single=bilevel=bilevel=single=engine) to make up for usual six-car trains that couldn't fit.
And when I began commuting on the Lowell line about seven years ago, bi-levels were occasionally in service.
It's just demand that keeps them on the south side.
Why no Bi-Levels into North Station? Since you do get a chance to ride the Bi-Levels on the Attleboro/Providence Line. Do you like the Bi-Levels?
Dominick Bermudez.
The nicest feature of the Kawasaki bi-levels is the airbag suspension. They're much smoother and quieter than the MBB and Bombardier singles.
It seem's that you preety munch like it. Do you?
Dominick Bermudez.
"Here in Boston, we're much more likely to have a nasty storm. I'll be coming into the city on my usual MBTA commuter train tomorrow morning, and will report on how the MBTA is handling the storm"
I'll be right with you, Todd...I'll see if I need to go to my internship at WHDH-TV a bit early, since even Tuesdays commute could be rough too! Welcome back :-) -Nick
*A sigh of relief*
I have a lot of computer simulations to do these days.
Chaohwa
WTOP Radio (Washington) is saying that it will only be later than originally predicted and where you are affects you but I'm still expecting at least 6 inches AND a school closure (more time to sleep and SubTalk).
Todd, I read your bio online and it said you used to broadcast on WTOP? Is that true and when did you do that? Now all of our forecasts are from the Weather Channel which I believe broadcasts from Atlanta. I can not confirm that though since when I rode MARTA, I never heard an announcement for the Weather Channel (they had virtually everything else).
REVISED Washington Forecast:
Now WTOPNews.com sasy 4 inches.
I still don't want to go to school tomorrow.
I was on WTOP back in the late 70s through the mid 80s. At that time, I worked for a private weather company in suburban Boston; every weekend I was on 50+ radio stations all over the country.
Too young to be listening to WTOP back then. Most of the current anchors and staff is relatively new, most came the day the blizzard of '96 hit. I remember that because that day, it was mostly new anchors and I made the assumtion those were the closest to WTOP's studios in Northwest. Well, I guess I am wrong because Mike Moss and Richard Day are still on the morning drive. Bob Madigan is still with WTOP but not as an anchor and Debbie Feinstien is long gone.
It is too bad WTOP won't do the Orioles anymore. Now I will have to listen to WTEM for the ball games and WTOP for traffic and weather together. WTOP only does transit during rush hours and they don't even do it during all the traffic reports. Once, they just said too many delays to tell you about although then, about a minute later, the anchors let us know what was going on.
Of course the north shore of LI will probably get hit hard.
My guess is
Eastern Suffolk-around 6 inches
Western Suffolk and southeastern Nassau 6-10 inches
Most of Nassau and NYC-Around 12 inches
North shore of Nassau county and NW Suffolk 12-15 inches
For Westchester,Bergen, and northern suburbans 15-20 inches
Up to 2 feet possible northwest of there.
Still a messy storm, but fortunately not a disasterous one.
Here--try a real one:
weather.com
Now that you work for the TA, you know there is no such thing as "taking a snow day!"
(Now that you work for the TA, you know there is no such thing as "taking a snow day!")
Here's an interesting point. At City Planning, a large share of the people I worked with lived in Brooklyn, and many of the older staff lived in Manhattan. In my unit at the NYCT, we've got three Nassau County residents, one New Jersey resident, and a resident of Little Neck, Queens, right on the Nassau border. One takes a bus from Valley Stream to Jamaica. Another drives into Queens and park-n-rides on the A. Two take the Long Island Railroad, another a New Jersey commuter bus.
I'm not sure if any of these folks will TRY to go to work tomarrow, but what are the odds that any will GET THERE? I plan to walk down to the all-underground R if the F isn't running. The kids will be with me -- no Catholic School for two days. What's are the advantages of living in Brooklyn? Walking and the subway.
How are all those train operators going to get to work?
The TA prefers that their workers live in the city but of course cannot mandate it. The TA expects their workers to find a way to get in. How? Frankly I don't think the TA cares how! The railraod has to run! As a practical matter, even a T/O or C/R who lives in eastern Queens or Nassau Co. (and most need do and need a bus or LIRR to get in) and works on the E/F/J/Z may have a big problem getting in if the buses stop running since you can't put chains on todays buses because they destroy the fibergalss wheel-wells. I don't know what happened out there in 1996 with the personel because I was on the M at the time. I trudged thru the snow to Metropolitan Ave. although I sat around for almost 2 workdays because service was suspended. Since I work an all underground line (E) it is not affected by weather conditions. I have a 3 to 4 mile tredge to Queens Blvd/Grand Ave. Since the severity of the storm is downgraded, I'll bite the bullet: this time!
Perhaps a motel room somewhere in NYC would solve the problem of subway motormen and conductors getting to work from the suburbs or outer areas of the city.
Of course this costs money, and some probably can't afford it.
But if the TA put up the motormen and conductors somehwere (as well as other staff) than it would be easier on the worker. But that's just a weird fantasy isn't it?
(The TA prefers that their workers live in the city but of course cannot mandate it.)
Acutally, the TA does mandate it. It's a New York City law, and has been for decades. I signed the agreement to live within the city twice, once in 1986, once a month ago when I rejoined the TA. City workers are required to live in the city, unless exempted by state law or a NYC decision.
Somehow transit workers were not part of the "let the influential NYC employees flee to suburbs where taxes are lower and public services are better" law, which passed in the Wagner Administration. Police, teachers, sanitation workers, and fireman were allowed to go -- all the high-paid civil service trades other than transit. Low paid civil servants (ie DC37) where kept in the city, rather than being allowed in the suburbs.
For that reason, perhaps, all the high-paid civil service titles remained predominantly white through 1990, according to the census of population that year, while the low paid civil service titles became predominantly Black and Latino. Again, transit was the exception, with high paid minority workers. I've noticed the growing predominance of minorities and immigrants in TA management, 30 years after they began moving into the rank and file. Hasn't hurt MDBF much.
But guess what? All the minority "suits" in my unit live out in the 'burbs! I asked about that, and was told that the residency requirement is not really enforced.
Figures, because while the NYCT has a historical legacy as a city agency, it is actually run by New York State, and has been since 1968. The state has no incentive to keep well paid taxpayers living in its least favorite municipality.
They could give up the ghost and pass a law allowing all New York public employees to live anywhere in the state, but in that case NYC residents would be allowed to compete for government jobs in the suburbs. Can't have that.
Sorry, Larry, but us poor peon RTO employees do not have to live inside the City limits. Maybe you folks downtown do... As for getting in, I did what I do every Sunday night - get up at 10:30, shower, get dressed, get in my car and drive from Staten Island to 241 St/White Plains Rd so that I can make an 0043. Of course, if there REALLY had been a severe snow storm, I would first see if NYCT buses on Staten Island were running; if not, I have a legitimate excuse for not showing up - no NYCT service (note that while I usually drive (I get an extra hour and a half of sleep) they cannot require me to, especially since they provide service where I live).
(Sorry, Larry, but us poor peon RTO employees do not have to live inside the City limits. Maybe you folks downtown do.)
So perhaps its by title? They certainly expect me to live in the city, or at least I had to sign to that effect. Not that I regret living in Brooklyn in the least!
I was on the No.2 myself early Monday morning. My 6:15 report at 239 YD turned into a 3:45 Report at 96 Street. Lucky when I got to 96 St. the SUPT. said there was no train for me and to deadhead to 239 Yd and pick up a train in the Yard after 6:30.
CSX up here in Albany county is trying to roll through everything they can to the north and west. Latest projections say we're going to get two MORE feet of snow (and just when we were starting to see the tops of dead shrubs here and only about 20 inches on the ground). NYC is going to definitely cover the schmutz with something white and pretty ... that was one of the things I loved when I lived in the city - the white snow making everything look clean and pretty ... for about ten hours or so when it started turning black. Heh.
Up here, we got hit with snow in December and it never really did melt in all this time ... it's pretty even without it. I just measured out here now and we've still got about 20 inches here in Voorheesville, NY on the grass and about 5 on the driveway. We had "lake effect snow" wherein it snowed for about 60 hours until about 12 hours ago here.
So enjoy, take comfort in the fact that Rudy is locked up in the Reichsbunker with his honey and his whips ... at least he ain't wandering the streets. :)
>>>So enjoy, take comfort in the fact that Rudy is locked up in the Reichsbunker with his honey and his whips ... at least he ain't wandering the streets. :) <<<
Which one is wielding the whips? Judi, I bet.
Peace,
ANDEE
In the most formal legal latin, "No lo contendre" ... masks and gags optional of course, void where prohibited by law. Question is, DID he make the trains run ... ON TIME? ...
LOL!!
15 to 20 inches look likely as storm moves slow and has rapid bombogenesis. Coastal areas won't be spared, they may even get it the hardest. 2 feet, or even more is possible, especially in the southern half of New Jersey.
It's gonna be a real mess alright, and those mounds of snow will probably block everything.
Hopefully NY State will issue a snow emergency, which will only allow emergency vehicles on the roads. Hopefully this state of emergency
will continue 24 hours after the snow stops so streets are cleared.
I have distrubuted shoveling notices to most residences along my walk to the bus stop, but if we get 20 inches or more, they'll have no place to put the snow but on the sidewalk. That's the way it was in 1996.
Cars better drive carefully once this thing is over, because there will be people walking in the street.
Well look on the bright side, I don't have a car to shovel out!!
Metro North will probably be affected by this storm significantly if it pans out to be as bad as 1996. Meanwhile like everybody else they're preparing for the worst. Most forecasters are calling for up to 1 to 2 feet of snow with a few spots getting more. Exactly how much we wind up getting all depends upon the track of the storm. There are quite a number of variables involved but I think it is best to expect a doozy.
BMTJeff
If this snowstorm you guys are getting is the rain we had out here in California last week, lotsa luck!!!!
It rained for seven days straight here, most of it the good, heavy stuff. We got more rain last week than we normally average in TWO years!!! It was like "El Nino" was coming back for a second visit.
Latest computer model is showing NYC in rain for a good part of the storm. The line is progged to be northwest of NYC. Of course this could just be a bad run. And coastal mixing or changeover doesn't help us much on the north shore, we'll still get slammed.
Steve Hoskins:
The NOAA is expecting a return of El Nino during the Winter of 2001-2002 and next winter might be rather mild with little snowfall.
BMTJeff
El Nino can sometimes mean MORE storms.
That XFL game at the Coliseum last week was a splashfest. Mind you, I only watched the very end of it; I don't particularly care for the XFL. Not a whole lot of mud, though. Did they redo the field drainage when the Coliseum was remodeled?
thank god we got the subways, i highly doubt it they'll get affected
The elevated lines and the open cuts will! On the open cuts, and on the "thru spans", which are the areas on the elevated structure above the token booths, the accluminating snow acts like the stop arm on a signal, and the third rail freezes up. 600 volts does not generate heat!
Well ... it's official ... we're declaring a "neener level nine" emergency for the coming storm. This will mean that security officers are now on their way to Heypaul's apartment to confiscate the R9 cab since it appears to have a working windshield wiper and is therefore necessary to the city's emergency transit plan. Rudy's already shovelled himself into the bunker with a fresh set of whips in case the Port Authority gets "uppity" again. :)
JUST BRING IT!!!!
Having been to an academic institution which
closes at the mere sprinkle of salt on the ground,
Meteorologists have proven more often than not
to be mostly hype and low on truth speak.
-AMEN
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm in Hastings-on-Hudson, New York and there is only a coating of snow on the ground and the snow has generally been on the light side. All the schools in Westchester County are going to be CLOSED tomorrow because of the expected inclement weather which will only amount to 1 to 3 inches of snow by morning. I think that this storm will be the big fizzle of 2001 since they have downgraded it further. New York City and the nearby suburbs are expected to get only 6 to 12 inches of snow at the most when it is all said and done. I looked at the latest radar image at AccuWeather and it show an area of NO precipitation in extreme Eastern Pennsylvania. We'll probably be in that pocket for a while tonight. I'm going to keep posted on this storm and of any changes in the forecast. I thought that this was going to be a doozy but it might turn out not to be quite as big of storm as was originally thought.
BMTJeff
Once the coastal low gets going later Monday things will get hairy. It's one of those "tricky" storms that's for sure.
It certainly was a tricky storm to forecast. This morning we had very little snow and most if it was ice anyway. It rained up here in Westchester County for part of the day before it changed back to snow and sleet. It is snowing right now and right where I am about 6 inches are expected.
BMTJeff
19 inches just west of Albany and just like that pink bunny ...
Followup on the storm you guys missed down yonder ... total here in Voorheesville, NY (located about 10 miles west of Albany on the northern fringe of the Catskills where it flattens for a few miles and becomes Adirondacks (in other words close to Schenectady and Saratoga as well as Smallbany), we topped out at 27.75 inches ... needless to say, trapped in house until we can get a frontloader in here (my personal "road" is a little over a quarter mile from the nearest village "street" since we're up on top of a hill, this ain't a snowblower/shovel kinda place) ...
CSX and CP continue to operate though both took a breather for a few hours during the 2-3 inch per hour portion of our pixmission ... a little more than a "dusting" by upstate standards but we all survived up here ... just in case anybody thinks the dire forecasts were bogus, it all happened to move about 150 miles north of where you are. Up here, it was completely "as seen on TV" ... heh.
Well down here in Hastings-on-Hudson I got 7 inches of snow from this storm. It wasn't as bad here as they had expected. I heard that Lake Placid got 3 feet of snow from this storm.
BMTJeff
Yeah, from Saratoga on north, it was 30 inches to 42 inches. Quite an impressive storm ... first time I've ever had to bring in a payloader to do my driveway. :)
42 inches is a lot of snow!!
BMTJeff
Up here, we consider 20 inches to be "a moderate dusting" and the trains continue to move. 42 inches means they've got to bring in a snowblower train so they can keep moving. Down in the city, Rudy heads for the reichsbunker for a mere 3 inches. We laugh our asses off about that up here. Three inches means that you need to turn on your wipers and that's about it. :)
But yeah, we were impressed by this last one. It's already snowing AGAIN but they say 8-12 inches this time so we're gonna go out for snowcones. Heh.
All we need in Denver is a quarter-inch of snow and CDOT breaks out in a cold sweat. They hit the panic button and send out the plows and dump trucks to dump gravel, gravel everywhere. It kills me. Well, at least they use magnesium chloride on the freeways instead of gravel. And light rail keeps running when buses are stuck in traffic.
When I got 15 inches in Hastings-on-Hudson back on December 30, 2000 that was the greatest amount of snow I had seen here since the Blizzard of 1996 when I got almost 2 feet of snow. I was able to clear the driveway with a snow shovel after the storm in December but it took a long time. Up where you are 15 inches of snow is nothing.
BMTJeff
You betcha ... we got another 6 on top of it today. Only downside is I live on 7 acres up on top of a hill and the road down it is about a third of a mile. Not exactly something a shovel could tackle before August. :)
We had to bring in a payloader since our plow guy's truck ended up lost in a snowbank up here. Hopefully in a few weeks, I'll find some of the yardsticks I lost out there trying to measure the #@%^&!@ stuff. I figure we've got about 55 inches total out there from all the schmutz the last few weeks. Maybe more.
I wonder how much snow has fallen where you are this season. Also give me the snowfall totals of nearby communities if possible.
BMTJeff
Here ya go ... since it's an offsite link, I'll just pop it up for you ... anyone who isn't interested can just hit the stop button on their browser ... Just bear in mind that the map attached is *UN*melted snow STILL on the ground. If you look to the small 20-30 inch zone near Albany, that's us. Below the map which will appear, is the text statistics for Albany which is down in the valley so they have much less than we have up here, but it'll give you some numbers, in particular the winter totals you are looking for and deveiations from normal. Do feel free to roam the site at http://web.nws.cestm.albany.edu/ if you'd like to do some digging on your own ... here in upstate, we have to do our own weather research because the (ahem) "weather channel" doesn't do squat if you don't live in Hotlanta. Heh.
And you can click below for the stats for Smallbany:
http://web.nws.cestm.albany.edu/Data/ALBPNSALB.txt
Whoopsies! Forgot to include the SEASON accumulation figures you were looking for ... they're here, do feel free to browse the whole site - just try to avoid it around news time (4-7pm weekdays, 6-7pm weekends and 11am-12:30pm and 10pm to 11:30 any day) as the local breadcasters depend on this stuff to do their "computer models" ...
http://web.nws.cestm.albany.edu/Data/ALBCLIALB.TXT
And if you want to take in the whole site and see who actually does all those "computer models" you hear so much about from those lasy-assed weather-geeks on TV, here's where THEY get it all from:
http://web.nws.cestm.albany.edu/
It is sorta on topic for here since weather forecasts cause all sorts of angst for railroads and subways ... only difference is most of your weather geeks are LAZY. :)
You have gotten plenty of snow up there in Albany. Whcih town do you live in so I'll know.
BMTJeff
Voorheesville ... north end of the Selkirk yards of CSX (former Gonerail)
You have gotten plenty of snow up there in Albany. Which town do you live in so I'll know.
BMTJeff
I saw something very wierd while going across the bridge on MNRR between Bronx and Manhattan. On the Bronx side, it looked like there was a railroad right over the water, on an El. What is that used for?
If you saw a bridge almost immediately overhead, that's the Henry Hudson parkway, a doubledecker ... to the east is the IRT broadway local (1/9) 225th street station on the north end of the bridge to the east ...
That is the Oak Point Connector, which takes freight trins from the Hudson Line tracks to the Oak Point yard. It branches off from the Metro-North Hudson line a little north of Yankee Stadium and loops around the Bronx shoreline (although since it is over the water, I guess it is technically in Manhattan). After a long delay, it went into service a few years ago, shortly after a freight hit an overpass in the Bronx while using the previous route, which involved looping from the southbound Hudson line to the northbound Harlem line, then switching to the old Port Morris line under St. Mary's Park.
Among other things, the Bombadier R-142s get delivered over this track (unless they use the old route described above, which seems unlikely). It would be nice to get a picture of that. How about a shot taken west of Yankee Stadium showing the IRT's past and future: the abandoned Sedgwick Ave. station platforms of the old Polo Grounds shuttle, with R-142s being delivered on flatcars shown on the freight track in the background?
Whoop! I thought the person was describing the Marble Hill/Spuyten Duyvil area. My bad. :)
I imagine the freights must go REALLY slow on there since it's right over the water.
I imagine the freights must go REALLY slow on there since it's right over the water.
Why would they go slow?
The track is not straight, there appeared to be alot of curves. And since it's over the water, they would go slow. It's a wise thing not to risk a derailment, don't ya think?
It's a wise thing not to risk a derailment, don't ya think?
It's a wise thing not to risk a derailment anywhere, and going fast doesn't increase a chance of derailment all that much anyway.
And I can't imagine that there would be so many curves. The river is straight.
A friend of mine, a C/R onthe LIRR, is looking for information on an accident that reportedly took place in the mid 1930s at Vanderveer Park. It allegedly involved a collision between a LIRR train and a Hew Haven train. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Pardon my ignorance. Where is Vanderveer Park?
My guess, although I could be totllly wrong would be somewhere near Sunnyside, since that's where the Hell Gate connection and LIRR meet. Where else would those two systems come together?
I know years ago there was Tower Win just east of the Woodside station that controlled the switches between the main line and Port Wash. line. It was named "Win" because at one time the area was known as the "Winfield" Section of Queens.
Vanderveer Park is a couple miles south of Broadway Junction area on the LIRR freight line to Bay Ridge. It's about where the B8 bus wound up; there was an industrial area there with a lot of freight sidings (then).
The New Haven Railroad had trackage rights (from Fresh Pond south)over the LIRR line so they could access Bay Ridge. North of Fresh Pond, it was the New York Connecting Railroad, which was jointly owned by the New Haven.
On Friday, I took the 3:00PM train from Jamaica to Patchogue. Typical of most early afternoon LIRR trains, this one was packed with a large number of tradesmen, most toting bags with multiple cans of beer. The LIRR must have planned for this because the train, a DE30AC and 6 cars, had exactly two odd numbered cars (odd cars have the bathrooms). One of those cars was the first (behind the locomotive) and the other was the cab-car. Unfortunately, the cab-car was locked, leaving just one bathroom for the five cars with hundreds of overtaxed bladders. Now that's what i call planning.
The other bathroom is obviously for the crew.
I used to ride the 4:15 out of Jamaica to Patchogue) back in the 1960's, and in those days there were a lot of P54's that were originally m.u. trailers -- and no restrooms. It would be the same sort of situation on that train then -- the rear car looked and smelled more like a beer warehouse than a railroad car. And with no restrooms and open vestibules, guess where.......never mind.
Once the train got to Babylon, a good number of the rear-car inhabitants would get off. The regular conductor had a broom, and used to sweep all those empty beer cans right out the back door onto the tracks just east of the end of third rail in West Islip!! Yet you'd never see cans all over the tracks, so someone must have picked them all up.
Interesting, one of the Port Jefferson trains on Friday had all bathroom cars.
I had a slow ride on a DE30 OB train today. We did no better than 50mph the whole way to Jamaica.
Fortunately the M-1 ride into Penn was very fast, up to 73mph on the express between Jamaica and Woodside. They crossed a E/B LIRR train in front of us around Sunnyside, but after that it was smooth sailing into Penn. The bathrooms at Penn are far from adequate also.
The bathrooms at Penn Station are state of the art compared to the passenger rest rooms at Parsons/Archer E/J/Z.
Well yeah subway bathrooms are gross. I never have been in one and I never plan to.
When you gotta go... you gotta go :)
Shawn.
Well I guess that's why some men urinate on the side of the platform. Maybe more adequate subway bathrooms would solve the problem.
Maybe they should just hang a plastic bottle w/spout in front of each seat...:0)
My fears have been realized. Two buildings are proposed for either side of Jay Street north of Flatbush Avenue, in the former wasteland right where an inexpensive DeKalb to Rutgers connection would have to go. Forget the idea that we'll build it later. Those two buildings will probably be filled with environmental lawywers and consultants. Triple the price, or better yet, forget the whole thing.
I made a big stink about this at City Planning. I was told realistically and given other priorities, nothing can be built until 2025, and we should push for that. If City Planning isn't going to think about the interaction between land use and infrastructure, who is? Having been beaten down every time it tried to do something, DCP is now left to cut shortsighted deals. Thank God I wasn't the last rat off the sinking ship.
E-mail your congratulations on the long term loss of subway service for Brooklyn to our "representatives" in Albany and on the City Council. At least the latter are term-limited, we hope.
Thank God I wasn't the last rat off the sinking ship.
You've left town?
(Thank God I wasn't the last rat off the sinking ship.
You've left town? )
Nope, just the Department of City Planning. My home train (F) doesn't go over the Manhattan Bridge, so I don't have to leave town.
I can see by your note that you have your idiotic bureaucracy to deal with. Believe me, we have the same thing out here, different occupations, but idiotic nevertheless. I have to deal with the morons in the educational heirarchy who pretend to know what's best for the kids, but they themselves taught an average of four years and then beat it into administration where they can get paid more for f%^&*(#@$ things up. My empathy is with you. All I can say is keep fighting the good fight and don;t get discouraged.
[Having been beaten down every time it tried to do something]
By the state or the mayor?
([Having been beaten down every time it tried to do something]
By the state or the mayor?)
By the Mayor, the Council, various NIMBY groups, and the development industry, depending on what it is they are trying to do.
I can imagine how frustrating that is. I get upset just talking about this stuff . . . thinking or reading about good ideas, knowing that they'll never get done or will be badly botched.
(I can imagine how frustrating that is. I get upset just talking about this stuff . . . thinking or reading about good ideas, knowing that they'll never get done or will be badly botched.)
At least we're not Larry Reuter and Peter Cafiero. Here they are going to meetings on Grand Street, getting harassed by activists, pilloried by City and State politicians, and criticized in the press for closing the station, something we and they know there is no choice but to do.
Meanwhile, what we and they also know is that the MTA recommended building a Rutgers-DeKalb connection many years ago, but the MTA board and/or those same politicians cut it out of the capital plan. I was told there was no interest in, and no support from, Brooklyn politicians on the issue. The actual statement, in a meeting on the subject at City Planning, was the only person in the city who gave a damn was ME!
I'll bet Reuter and Cafiero were DYING to throw in back in their faces, but they work for the board and the politicians, so they can't. And now that I'm on the team, I guess I really can't either, though I did fire off one last letter of complaint a week before joining the TA.
Meanwhile, what we and they also know is that the MTA recommended building a Rutgers-DeKalb connection many years ago, but the MTA board and/or those same politicians cut it out of the capital plan. I was told there was no interest in, and no support from, Brooklyn politicians on the issue. The actual statement, in a meeting on the subject at City Planning, was the only person in the city who gave a damn was ME!
Which reinforces my belief, as stated here before, that part of the reason why the Second Avenue line hasn't been built (and never will be built) is the curious silence on the part of the Upper East Side's residents. If they had campaigned hard and loud for the line, which will of course be a huge boon to the area, I have no doubt whatsoever that it would've been built ... not least because of the fact that the people in the area tend to have a lot of influence.
Upper East Side residents have not been silent on the issue. They've been very vocal - but people only hear what they want.
(Which reinforces my belief, as stated here before, that part of the reason why the Second Avenue line hasn't been built (and never will be built) is the curious silence on the part of the Upper East Side's residents.)
(Upper East Side residents have not been silent on the issue. They've been very vocal - but people only hear what they want. )
Some people matter, and some people don't. Long time NYC residents who are connected to and know how to work the political process don't ride subways. They drive, and get some kind of parking deal.
Meanwhile, the subways are loaded with immigrants, who can't vote, and (for lack of a better word) yuppies, who moved in and (the pols expect) will be moving on some day. Yes these people want subway improvements, but other people matter more. And the politicians have figured out they can buy them off with studies.
I say let's change the state motto from "Excelsior" (ever upward) to "Tondere et Aufugere" (fleece and flee). Truth in advertizing.
When I get the new plates I intend to put a VA sticker over the E in EMPIRE.
[Which reinforces my belief, as stated here before, that part of the reason why the Second Avenue line hasn't been built (and never will be built) is the curious silence on the part of the Upper East Side's residents. If they had campaigned hard and loud for the line, which will of course be a huge boon to the area, I have no doubt whatsoever that it would've been built ... not least because of the fact that the people in the area tend to have a lot of influence.]
I had the impression that that's why the stubway was being built. Rich and vocal campaign contributors, many of them Republicans, so let's built a subway from 86th Street to Midtown and make noises about extending it to 125th Street and the lower east side so no one can accuse us of neglecting the poor . . . (I have no inside information, I'm just trying to read between the lines.)
Saturday's Times
>>> Some, for instance, said they would have to spend $50 or more a week for parking.<<<
I guess they're subway snobs.
Peace,
ANDEE
QSC provided a free bus to the ferry ... it was empty most of the time.
Mr t__:^)
Well, those of you who missed riding the ferry also missed an unusual opportunity--the ability to ride the LIRR as people could before Penn Station opened.
1--Ferry from 34th Street to L.I.C.
1a--(Bus or walk to LIC LIRR)
2--LIRR train via OLD Montauk Line through Jamaica and out east.
That bus ride, while fairly fast, made the whole journey seen a lot less convenient than if the train still ran right to the ferry terminal.
Realisticly, the ferry could have provided an alternative way to deliver LIRR riders to Manhattan and relieve, in some small way, pressure on the LIRR East River tunnels and the 7 Line, but how many people do you suppose would pay $6 MORE to take the ferry than to be delievered right to Penn Station?
The Amtrak reservation system has been updated to include the new BOS-NYP-BOS Acela Express Train, which is effective this Monday. I hope it likes to run in the snow...
Does the current Acela Express like running in the snow? Or has it been yarded in favor of Amfleet consists?
It has been on the web site for awhile now. I saw it on there sometime in the past week.
They have yet to update the schedule on acela.com though. I have the schedule displayed on my website but it still shows the December 11 schedule.
And I don't think it will be going very far on Monday. I hope it likes staying in Sunnyside since it seems now the forecast can have it make it to New York but not back.
What are the odds-on favorites for what our favorite NYC Subway System look like in 24 years? Additions and deletions (heaven forbid)?
I really wouldn't bet on much beyond the 2nd Avenue Stubway and I don't even think we will get that.
I'll bite,
No second avenue subway (still being studied)
R142s still being tested/redbirds held together with bailing wire and bondo
Manny B still screwed up
R32s stil going strong
Peace,
ANDEE
Cheers to that. Don't forget the R-44s though--they'll be fine except for the big hole all the way around the car where the non-stainless steel has rusted away.
Dan
My guess is that the whole IRT will be R-142s except for possibly the 7 line, which will have the remaining R-62s, and they would be in the same situation as the R-26-28-29-33-36s are now.
Meanwhile, the BMT would have R-143 and whatever comes next, all current cars on the BMT except for strong R-68s will be gone.
One of these will happen:
1) The Manhattan Bridge will be perfect
2) The Rutgers connection to Dekalb will be made
3) There will be a four-track tunnel to replace trains on the Manhattan Bridge.
The second ave subway will be running from 63rd to 125th only.
New York will be a quite significant part of Greater Philadelphia, consisting of 25% of its population and contributing at least a third of its GDP. Philadelphia's new subway lines along Ridge Avenue, Roosevelt Blvd., South Front Street, Baltimore Ave., Rte. 42, 18th St., and Germantown Ave., and new commuter lines to Bethlehem, Allentown/Wilkes-Barre, Reading, Lancaster/Harrisburg, Vineland/Millville/Cape May, Dover/Salisbury, Princeton, and Baltimore, however, make it the transit epicenter of the Northeast. Conveniently located between the nation's financial and political capitals, it quickly surpasses NY in population and prestige, regaining its former status as second English-speaking city in the world. With its new-found wealth from Silicon Valley Forge and the Pharmaceutical and (thanks to GWBush) Petrochemical industries, it become the richest region in America. I wish.
Exactly, except where you said "Philadelphia," you meant "New York," and when you mentioned Philly landmarks you meant New York landmarks.
Isn't ego great?
Dan
NY has landmarks? I thought they had all been bulldozed. (I mean historical)...
In the Year 2525, the NYC subway will be run by the private firm of Zager and Evans.
(hint: It was a one-hit-wonder.)
The Montréal Métro has lines 1, 2, 4, and 5. Does anyone know what the line 3 would have been? Are there any plans to build it?
In the 1960's, they expected to convert one of the commuter rail lines to rapid transit and call it 3.
It was planned but never built. I think line 5 took its place in a way.
Line 3 would have been a conversion of the existing STCUM Deux-Montagnes commuter rail line.
Another route proposed along Blvd. Pie-IX would have been Line 7.
Don't know what Line 6 was supposed to be, but there was a long-ago proposal for some type of connecting route off Line 1 at the east end...
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
What format? time? topic?
I came home from the museum a while ago. I was supposed to be in the march episode, but I wasn't in it! They made it so short, practically no one was interviewed! oh well. All Mrs Basset asked me was what was I doing there, answer was I am a Volunteer tour guide. 2nd question, do u wanna work for NYCT? Answer, Yes. However, I am unsure if I wanna work for LIRR instead of NYCT though.
On my way home from the museum, I took the 2 to 42nd. I then changed for the E. When The Queens bound R32(3784), arrived at union turnpike, I noticed that there was a series of R32s as usual. But I saw ur car 3730 as the 3rd or 4th car. The lead car is 3788. It was sleeping, and I believe it will move from there on Monday at 5 right?
Thanx. By the way, has any one seen R46 5656? Thats my Favorite R46 that inspired the E to JAMAICA CENTER handle. I kept staring at the luminator on that car.
3784/85, just a few weeks ago, returned to active duty. For the almost 2 years I have worked the E line, this pair was laid up in JamYd cannibalized for parts. They received their new black floors and received an SMS. Other Phase I's are being taken o/s and are now receiving an SMS and new black flooring at the same time. Previously, like 3900/01, they went in for floor replacement, then returned to CI Main Shop later for SMS. Now all this is being done at the same time. Wonder why those black floors look so dull? They actually come back shiny, but the strong caustic chemicals in the floor detergent takes away the shine. And I hope I am not opening a can of worms here, but I can see the floor seams in the black floor cars already done. I hope the chemicals aren't somehow shrinking the black floor covering. Only time will tell!
What does SMS stand for ?
Scheduled maintance where the cars get a mini overhaul. Some parts are replaced due to their age. The trucks are overhauled for example.
On Feb.24 we found The Eastern Division Mushy Floor Champ, #4902-4903, back in service on the "M", with new floors, but they are not black, they're sort of light beige. I could tell - they have that little square plate with the ridges embedded in the floor, and they were in good shape too. I guess this is one of the R40M/R42 that got its SMS. Some of the 4300-series Slants are still hanging around the "L" too, i.e. 4388-89, 4392-93 etc.
Bill - here's a question for you - since when did they start running eight cars on the "M" Shuttle? I remember the "M" Shuttle being 4-cars, even back in the days of the R-7a/R-9 cars. Do they really need eight cars for the Shuttle?
wayne
They do not need 8 cars on the M shuttle at all, except for times like today when you have cold & snow so that you'll have fewer cars to be concerned about with freezing up in the yards (everything can't fit underground) and to have more cars on the train making contact with the third rail. Since the WillyB reopened they haven't ran 4 cars out there, and even before the bridge structure was rebuilt they ran 8 cars with rare times of 4 cars for a spell. Why stop cutting? I really don't know! Certainly, 4 cars are better for customer security and to keep vandalism down. They can certainly fit another 16 cars into FP Yard! Maybe they don't want to hire another train operator (don't want to pay?), maybe they are afraid the T/O's will forget how many cars they have, maybe they are afraid of mechanical failures because you are adding & cutting and putting "stress" on the electrical portions. Poor excuses as far as I'm concerned, but the TA has a reason for everything. I hope some passenger isn't a victim of a serious crime because the passengers are spread out too much. A letter to the TA by some non employee may give them a chance to explain their logic or lack thereof.
What is the J on nights/weekends nowadays - 4 or 8 cars ?
The J is 8 cars 24/7. In fact, the only time trains are cut is for OPTO services on the midnite B, midnite 5 and weekend G. I may be wrong, but the midnite R is 4 cars but with a 2 person operation.
You are right. It was discussed relatively recently.
Thank's for the heads-up, I saw it today. I'll keep an eye out for 5656 for ya.
Hi,
Wondering if anyone knew the specific power plants that are used by the MTA to power the subway. I am looking for information on the type of fuel that is used and the locations of the particular plants. Also, what is the difference between a solid state and rotary converter. i'm no engineering genius.
thanks
eugene
The MTA buys its power from Con-Ed so it's coming out of the grid. Who knows where it's actually generated.
If you're interested in "how it used to be", see the IRT section, look at the New York Subway: Its Construction and Equipment book, chapter on the Power House, and in the Historic American Engineering Record, the paper on Electrical Engineering.
The MTA buys its power from Con-Ed so it's coming out of the grid. Who knows where it's actually generated.
I thought the MTA got its power from the NYS Power Authority.
Okay you might be right but doesn't that mean it still comes from the power grid?
Either way, whoever they buy their electricity from it probably is comeing from the grid and the company that's selling the power to the MTA is likely just acting as a retailer selling power from the grid to the MTA. The company selling power to the MTA probably also sells power from their generating plants into the grid as well. That way, no direct connection between any given power company's generating plants and the MTA's substations is required.
Solid state converters are basically gigantic sillicon bridge rectifiers. Same thing you can buy at radio shack for $1, only they're made for like 10,000 amps at 1kv or so. Probbably air cooled. And almost 100% efficient. A rotary converter is effectively a motor generator set, and is considerably less efficient. I think more like 60% or so, which means the remaineder is let out as heat. And they wear out too. The NYCTA doesn't use 25hz ones in regular service, but Amtrak still uses rotary frequency changers. So like 30% of the electricity Amtrak uses is effectively wasted. I'd be curious as to if the TA's electric bill has changed any with the conversion to solid state.
Oh yeah, solid state converters also are about as maintenance free as you get.
The LIRR used to use ignitrons at one time, and they're efficient too, but not as much as solid state conveters, and they have a few interesting problems/failure modes. I think all of the LRR's substations are solid state today. Anyone know for sure?
For those of you who do not check the "upcoming events" list, here is an update on the plans for the WMATA Field Trip. The status of the plans has been changed from TENTATIVE to PROBABLE.
The trip will be held on Saturday, April 21, 2001
To meet us, take Amtrak Train 79 (departing New York at 6:05 AM and Philadelphia at 7:43) to Washington, DC, arriving at 9:50 AM. Meet at that time at Gate G in Union Station (outside the Ladies' Room). We will leave Union Station at about 10:05 and take the Red Line to Fort Totten. From there, we will take the Green Line through the two newest segments of the MetroRail system (Columbia Heights and Branch Avenue) before returning to downtown for a lunch break. After lunch, we will take the Yellow Line over the Potomac into Virginia and go out either to Huntington, Franconia-Springfield, or Vienna. We will then head back through downtown, making a stop at Metro Center and then head out on the Orange Line to New Carrolton, arriving there in time for train 148, leaving New Carrolton at 5:51 PM, back to New York and Philadelphia.
By joining us on this fun and exciting day, you will see at least 39 out of the 83 stations (almost half of them). It is also a perfect chance to meet fellow SubTalkers while riding one of the premiere subway systems in America and the world!
NOTE: This is all subject to change! This is not the final plan for the day! Do not make your train reservations yet, especially for the return trip home!
For more information including what Amtrak trains to take down and back, e-mail Oren H. (WMATAGMOAGH) at oren@orenstransitpage or Brighton Bob at bob@diplomattravel.com to recieve e-mail updates. Please do so even if there is the slightest possibility you may join us! We are looking foward to seeing you!
Of all days, I was thinking that day is all clear for me, but my girlfriend is invited to two weddings, one of which she's in, then we have another one later that evening!! If I told her I was going to do this instead, I'd be dead! THe only good thing is I'm going to feeload big time on the food and alcohol!!! Have a great time on your Subtalk trip!
Congratulations!
We will miss you.
Actually, we aren't the ones getting married, but she's a bridesmaid and I get to tag along to them.
Hopefully, there will be another fantrip down here if this one is a success.
April 21 is the date of a CMSL charter sponsored by the NJ division of NMRA. Quote from their website (click on "timetable"):
"April 21, 2001 - Division Trip on Cape May Seashore Lines
Location: CMSL in Cape May County
Train ride and tour of CMSL property starting at 10AM
Stopover in Cape May for lunch, sightseeing, etc.
Tickets to be sold at Division Meets ($10 per person)"
I'm not an NMRA member, but the West Jersey Chapter NRHS, of which I am a member, is assisting the NMRA in selling tickets, and I'll probably do the CMSL trip.
BTW, part 2 of the 50th anniversary celebration of the Budd RDC delivery to the PRSL still doesn't have a date; it keeps getting bumped by other promotions and charters.
I was aware of the G.O. having all downtown trains between 14th and BB going express.
I was waiting for an UPTOWN 6 train at Canal street. One bewildered man standing on the downtown platform. I just miss a 6 train upon getting to the uptown platform at Canal.
About a few minutes later a packed Redbird 4 came. It was way too packed to get on. And on the downtown side was a 6 train, making local stops! I saw it stop on the downtown side (Lucky for that guy).
So for 10 minutes no uptown train for me. Then a 5 rolls through, blowing it's horn and skipping our stop. One roll sign said "not in service" but there were passengers on the train. Another 8 minutes goes by and finally a 6 train comes. There were track workers around the next two stations.
So I stay on the 6 till 51st street, then figure I'd take the E or F to 74th and get the 7. Well once I got down to the platform (this is around 2:15pm) the Queens bound side was packed. I waited for almost 20 minutes and there was no train. By the time the 2nd Manhattan bound F came in on the other side, I got on and took it to 42nd.
At 47-50 I saw a Queens bound F standing in the station. There were no announcements but I guess something went wrong.
Got off at 42nd got the 7 train to Flushing. It was like the train to Mexico. There was a guy with terrible B/O on there. And a Mexican Ranchera band (it seems everytime I take the 7 on weekends there's a Ranchera band playing while we go though the Steinway tubes). And while looking out the rear window I saw a hispanic male pee onto the tracks after he got off the train and we pulled away. Peeing right in front of other people at the far rear of the platform. Absolutely disgusting.
The 7 train is definately the train to Mexico. Yeah I know it's nicknamed the "International Express" but clearly a majority of riders
are spanish speaking. I think the Tijuana express may be more appropriate.
If someone asked me what train smelled the worst I'd have to say the 7. Nothing beats the smell of heating oil, B/O, and tacos.
Now if someone asked me what train has the least homeless, I'd also say the 7. Even with all it's troubles, it's still one of my favorite subway lines. And the most reliable.
That is disgusting.
I was at 51/Lex this winter going to Penn and there was all this wateron the platform on the southbound 6. I was most unamused.
Also, that elevator at 51st and Lex smells really bad! It was being worked on in December but I've used in in the past and it is BAD!
[The 7 train is definitely the train to Mexico. Yeah, I know it*s nicknamed "The International Express" but clearly a majority of riders are Spanish-speaking.]
And all Spanish-speakers are from Mexico, right? Actually, most of those roving bands are (or claim to be) from Peru or Ecuador.
The reason for the nickname "International Express" is the large number of ethnicities represented both in Queens as a whole and along the #7 in particular. (The Queens Tribune*s reading of the 1990 census lists 157 nationalities for the borough, ranging from 187,000 Chinese all the way down to 7 Estonians. National Geographic, also citing the 1990 census, lists 123 nationalities for Elmhurst alone, making 11373 the most diverse zip code in the US.)
Well I guess there's a difference between Mexican and South American music, it's hard to tell the difference though.
BTW, sorta O/T but there was a nightclub stabbing in Flushing last night. The club is near Main & Northern.
The northern and eastern sections of Flushing seem to be the worst.
It's interesting to follow pdestrian patterns in Flushing. While I was there today (briefly) I noticed most people use the exit at Main & Roosevelt, and exit walking south. When a train lets out the western side of Main street going south (especially around the LIRR overpass) is gridlock. Alot of riders pick up stuff at fruit stands on their way home.
The eastern 7 entrance on Roosevelt ave is used, but most people exit and then walk back west. Weekdays see some more people walking north and east but in general most people just don't hang out in that part of town.
In general I feel the safest in the busy areas around Main and Roosevelt, up to around the HK supermarket, and south till about Maple. The busy areas with the stores are in this area, especially those extremely busy fruit markets (where lots of mystical girls shop).
It would be nice if they had more subway entrances on Main, since this area gets busier than by the new entrance on Roosevelt. Often there can be delays getting up and down stairs, and severe bottlenecks of people on street corners. Well I don't think it's gonna happen, remember how long it took to build the Roosevelt ave entrance?
The Fox 5 story about brothels in Queens is on again. I wonder if this brothel activity is in Flushing. I sure hope not!
yup, i've heard of the tense conjestion of the main street station. maybe if they build additional exits a little up north, it should relieve some of the preassure. but what gets me is the escalators. sometimes they work fine, one goes up, the other goes down. but then there are days in which both go up or down or none of them run period. maybe this contributes to the extensive conjestion on the station.
--jonathan c.
[It would be nice if they had more entrances on Main, since that area gets busier than by the new entrance on Roosevelt.]
Some comments:
1. The tracks and station envelope are aligned under Roosevelt Avenue, not under Main Street.
2. While additional access/egress capacity is always nice, keep in mind that there isn't much spare sidewalk space in central Flushing (which is why the east end entrance had to invade the roadway), and those sidewalks probably have undergound utilities right where the stairs would need to go.
3. The east end entrance serves its primary purpose during peak hours, when most station users arrive or leave on buses. (Yes, it's less than perfect, but it works as well as one could ask given the realities of general traffic and truck deliveries.)
----
In my ideal world (hah!), BOTH entrances would have been reconstructed as follows:
Western end: fare control at street level, in the former Woolworth storefront.
Eastern end: from the existing platform-level fare control area, a new passageway (wide enough for retail space) under Lippmann Plaza and 39th Avenue to a new off-street bus terminal on the site of the existing municipal parking lot. (That whole parcel could have been totally redeveloped to incorporate said bus terminal plus a garage and an office building or department store.)
Yeah I know that there will probably be no new entrances for Main street in the near future. But some of the crowding is really bad right under the RR trestle on the west side of Main street.
Too many people, not enough real estate!
Bill: Is Maspeth still a nice area of middle class people. I was impressed the last time I was there in 1991. I didn't get there in 1999 and am curious about your area. I was especially impressed with a memorial I saw honoring the young men from your neighborhood that gave their lives for their country in World War II. There was also a bakery there that served the most delicious and freshment crumb buns I ever tasted.
Yes, I feel that Maspeth is a good middle working class area. Of course it has its conflicting opinions, but I feel I live on a decent block. Our house is surrounded by 3 Catholic Churches. We are split in half by the Long Island Expwy., have many bus routes in the area. Truck traffic in the area, especially on the local streets is a major problem, community leaders moan justifiably about poor police response time as the only way to/from the station house is the other side of always traffic congested Fresh Pond Road. The owner of the bakery (a block and a half from where I live) you speak of recently retired and while the place is still a bakery, it has Polish "cuisine". I miss those crumb and cheese buns!
By any chance, is one of those churches Transfiguration Church?
Yes, one is Transfiguration. The others: Holy Cross and St. Stanislaus Kostka. There is another St. Stans in nearby Greenpoint (Brooklyn)
Prediction. One will be forced to close its doors due to the severe clergy shortage!
I've been to Transfiguration several times, although it's been 30 years since I've seen it. It's one of five Lithuanian parishes in New York, assuming it still is. There used to be five, anyway. The oldest, Queen of Angels in Williamsburg, closed in 1981. The others are St. George's, Annunciation, and Gates of Dawn (Our Lady of Vilnius), right at the Holland Tunnel.
By any chance, is one of those churches Transfiguration Church?
>>>Our house is surrounded by 3 Catholic Churches.
Bill: Three Catholic churches? Wow! Which ones are these?
cordially,
turnstiles
Obviously, you have NO education in diversity.
Just because a person speaks Spanish, does NOT make them a Mexican. Spanish is also spoken in ALL the South American countries except Brazil (which uses Portuguese as its primary language as it was once a colony of Portugal). Many of the Caribbean islands are Spanish-speaking. And all the other countries in Central America also speak Spanish.
And guess what? People from Spain also speak Spanish!!!
So learn something about other cultures, before you lump all Spanish-speakers as "Mexicans".
(And *I* also speak Spanish....though I come from a family with Irish, German, and Scottish background in the Bronx. Does that make ME a Mexican because I speak Spanish?)
amen hermano!
Aren't there two dialects of spanish??
Aren't there two dialects of spanish??
No. There are many, many more.
Like English. Do people in Australia and England talk the same? Or in the US and Canada?
...Or in the US and Canada?
Or even in the US, the US, and other parts of the US.
...Or in the US and Canada?
Or even in the US, the US, and other parts of the US.
Exactly. You speak Yankee, I speak y'all, Fred speaks Californian (despite his New York roots), and others speak differently still.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Dear obviously ignorant, uneducated, and untravelled idiot John: There are in fact many, many dozens of various dialects of Spanish, which, probably contrary to your obviously narrowed and sterotypical view of the hispanic people, only goes to show that not all latin people are all the same, should be all lumped together, or collectively chastized for the mistakes of just one or two, such as the man you claim to have seen urinating. The question is, why is this what you've apparently done in your other post? There are literally dozens of spanish, with proper Castillian Spanish (textbook spanish) being the best, while various other major and minor variations and ideosyncractic dialects being indicative of one's particular social class and geographic orgin. I say this because I just read your other posting regarding your trip on the "International Express", (funny, I thought NYC had always been an "international" kind of city and that this was actually one of its strengths) and was quite literally DISGUSTED by the obviously RACIST and INFLAMMATORY remarks you made about hispanic people, and "Mexicans" in particular. Check out my response I will shortly post for all to see, if you dare. BTW, is this a gag posting or are you in fact really trying to impress all other SubTalker as to how ignorant and bigoted you really are?
>:-<
ThomasTheHALFMEXICAN-AMERICAN SubwayEngine!!!
You know what disgusts me? That Mexican work their asses off, have tremendous pride, are great family people, and when you get to know them are about the warmest people in the land. And they seldom receive the credit they deserve for the real down to earth people they are. If you read my other post you know that not only to I admire those people tremendously but I have considred them my good luck charm for as long as I can remember. I hope John has taken stock of what he said. It could be his diatribe was just out of frustration.
>>>You know what disgusts me? That Mexican work their asses off, have tremendous pride, are great family people, and when
you get to know them are about the warmest people in the land. And they seldom receive the credit they deserve for the real
down to earth people they are
Fred: I could not agree more. I have met a large number of Spanish-speaking people that exhibit a sense of family and culture (and religion) that few people remark upon.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Whoa, I can't believe it-one of the most commonly underappreciated and put down ehtnic minorities finally get their due. You've brought a smile to my face, paesano. Thanx a million. Peace, Thomas:)
I gotta agree. Many Hispanic people are willing to do the dirty, stinky jobs that whites turn up their noses at. And they have a lot better work ethic than a lot of my fellow caucasian people. Of course this is not unilateral, but if you took your average immigrant from Mexico and your average European-American and gave them some hard work, the Mexican would get the job done faster. I think it's great. And I think that other languages are a wonderful addition to the culture. Does it freak John out that he can't understand people? I don't know. One of the little quirks of Portland's MAX that I like it eh bilingual announcements. "Sunset Transit Center, Doors to my right. Sunset Transit Center. Puertas a mi derecha." Longtime MAX riders have the spanish announcements for things like "transfer here for bus service to NW Portland" memorized.
Many immigrants are good workers, and aren't paid enough or recognized for their work. Mexicans, chinese, and many other immigrants are what makes the 7 train a busy route even at night.
These people work hard, I see it every day in my neighborhood. They ride LI Bus, work hard as housekeepers and landscapers, and get paid little by their wealthy snob employers.
I feel for these people, alot of the women have to stand in the middle of a snow covered bus stop after a night of housekeeping. Their employers can't even give them a ride home.
I can't help it, but I just get so mad that these rich snobs in East Hills take advantage of those who are vulnerable and without a voice.
That's all I have to say on the subject, I'm just trying to set things straight.
A lot of employers don't give their employees 'a ride home' They don't have to. How do you know what their jobs are? Can you look at me and tell me what I do? Pork? Thomas? Steve?
Jackass.
-Hank
Well, Hank, I have to take a pass on this one. My employer not only gives me a ride home, I also get a ride to work.
Your employer, who is in the transportation business, gives you the benefit of using their system for free. It's not an added expense to them.
-Hank
Their employers can't even give them a ride home.
What about all those rich snobs who drive their luxury SUVs to the railroad station and take the train to their jobs in the financial district? I don't see you complaining when they have to wait in the snow for their train to arrive. And guess what? Their employers don't give them a ride home either.
Their employers can't even give them a ride home.
At least they have employers. When are you planning to get a job?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"At least they have employers. When are you planning to get a job?"
Hmm well lets see. I live in Sea Cliff where I have a bus that runs once an hour and very undependable, I'm far away from employment. It's not as easy as you may think.
Alot of people seem to be ignorant about how hard it is to get around and have a steady job without a car coming from an area like this.
Buses are so undependable you have to allow extra time. OK, let say I have a 9 to 5 job in Mineola. I have to take the N21 to Roslyn, then a
N23 to Mineola. I have to catch a 7:30am bus so I can make an 8:07am to Mineola that gets there 8:30am. Next bus is too risky.
I get out at 5pm. I just miss the 5:05pm to Manorhaven, so now I have to get the 5:25pm. I get off at Roslyn but because of traffic I have to wait for the next N21 to Glen Cove at 6:32pm. That bus is late as usual and I don't get home till 7pm. I'd spend 4 hours just taking buses each day. Now try doing this in the rain, or what about snow?
Then you gotta worry about errands like laundry and groceries. Yeah I can do them on the weekend but wait, I wouldn't get any assistance than from my agency since they're closed.
And what time do I have any fun or railfanning? And add anxiety disorder and depression to the mix.
So how do I help myself out? Either I move or find enough money to pay the car costs? And any job I get needs to pay enough so I get more than my benefits, otherwise I'd be working for less money. So I need some tech training first so I can land a better job.
Maybe all you people who don't understand would love to be in my shoes and see what it's really like. And having to grieve after the loss of
their mother and having little support from family or friends on improving your situation.
I know it's a personal rant but I have to admit comments like that really hurt, and I want them to stop. I have a mental illness alright.
My feelings are so hurt maybe I'll just avoid hanging out here. It's such a shame that this board has become full of mudslinging and personal attacks, mainly against me. I thought I finally found a group of people who I could talk to, but I guess I was wrong.
Sticks and stones may break my bones but boy do WORDS HURT!
John, you should've thought of that before you started bashing "Mexicans" and called the 7 the "Train to Tijuana"
>>> and called the 7 the "Train to Tijuana" <<<
Which as we all know is really in San Diego.
Tom
John, you seem to spend most of your time whining and complaining about how horrible life is - you even did that on the field trip a few weeks ago - but you don't seem to be trying to do anything about it. When I was your age I had a forty mile commute in heavy traffic, which meant that I left our apartment before 0700 and didn't get back home until about 1830, unless I was going to my second job, in which case I didn't get home until after 2300. I didn't much care for either job, but they put food on the table for my wife and I and our young daughter. I didn't have time for railfanning or any other form of recreation; when I wasn't working I was taking care of my family or studying. When the deck was stacked against us, like it seemed to be much of the time back then, we didn't have time to feel sorry for ourselves, and we didn't whine or complain or ask the government (or anyone else) for a handout - we simply dug in and worked harder. I suggest you do the same, and remember: when life gives you lemons, make lemonade.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
AMEN, e_mouse!
>>> I'm far away from employment. It's not as easy as you may think <<<
The solution is simple. Move to Flushing.
Seriously, you have stated that you do not have family support where you are. Why stay there? Sooner or later you will come to realize that YOU are the one who must make changes to improve your life.
Tom
Hmm well lets see. I live in Sea Cliff where I have a bus that runs once an hour and very undependable, I'm far away from employment. It's not as easy as you may think. Alot of people seem to be ignorant about how hard it is to get around and have a steady job without a car coming from an area like this.
Buses are so undependable you have to allow extra time. OK, let say I have a 9 to 5 job in Mineola. I have to take the N21 to Roslyn, then a
N23 to Mineola. I have to catch a 7:30am bus so I can make an 8:07am to Mineola that gets there 8:30am. Next bus is too risky.
I get out at 5pm. I just miss the 5:05pm to Manorhaven, so now I have to get the 5:25pm. I get off at Roslyn but because of traffic I have to wait for the next N21 to Glen Cove at 6:32pm. That bus is late as usual and I don't get home till 7pm. I'd spend 4 hours just taking buses each day. Now try doing this in the rain, or what about snow?
Then you gotta worry about errands like laundry and groceries. Yeah I can do them on the weekend but wait, I wouldn't get any assistance than from my agency since they're closed.
And what time do I have any fun or railfanning? And add anxiety disorder and depression to the mix.
You can manage. Between the LIRR and the subway, I spend close to five hours a day commuting - and about $275 per month. It's not easy, but I manage. So do a lot of people. You just have to make more efficient use of your time when faced with a schedule like that.
Any resemblance that this most recent statement bears to George W. bush's actions of putting some very "white" african-americans in high office positions to look good to blacks is purely a figment of your imagination.
DAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-AMEN there, Fred!
Two major ones (American and Spain) and then obviously many more.
Guess what? There are a lot more than two dialects of Spanish. Just like there is the "King's English" that those in the U.K. consider to be the ONLY English, then there's the Canadian version, and then the Austrailian version, and the South African version (whaddya think, they spoke South African down there???) and the English that Americans speak (and the folks back in Mother England claim that we have "abominated") -- and then there are many different dialects in different parts of the United States alone.
>>> Just like there is the "King's English" that those in the U.K. consider to be the ONLY English <<<
Not hardly! Cockney is a dialect used in London, the heart of the U.K. I remember a time when I took a wrong turn driving in Berlin in 1962 and was stopped by British sentry of the Scots Guards. After trying to understand what he was saying to me in his heavily accented English for a couple of minutes, I suggested that we both speak German so I could understand him.
Tom
Well I guess chinese isn't the only language with many different dialects. Mandarin is spoken by most in China, so that's the dialect of chinese I have chosen to learn.
I think I have heard the MTR trains in Hong Kong have announcements in English and the Cantonese dialect of Chinese. Mandarin has become more popular in HK, so I wonder if announcements will ever be in Mandarin.
John, you really excoriated John by your anti-Mexican diatribe. It might be a good time to try and mend some fences now. Just a suggestion. BTW, there are two people on this site who I am at loggerheads with right now. We all have our problems, but if I may say so, your long post did seem a little prejudicial to me.
Well I made a mistake. I shouldn't post negative biases like that.
I really respect immigrants of all kinds, Mexicans, Chinese, and many others. They work hard and earn little, and get alot of abuse.
Now with sleet pelting at my window, I think of those that actually have to work as maids. I remember going for a walk in a snowstorm and saw an older hispanic woman waiting for a bus. When I ride LI Bus, I see the poor working class, often coming back or going to gardening or
housekeeping, for wealthy people in East Hills.
Alot of us can get off of work tomorrow for the storm, but since these immigrants can't afford a day off, they have to walk in a blizzard to work for their luxury SUV toting snob who couldn't give them a ride.
I have the respect for any honest and hard working person, as well as those who are mentally or physically disabled. It's the rich SUV driving snobs in places like East Hills I can't stand!
Now please, lets get off this, I'm sorry I made an error in judgement now please, let's move on!
Awright, you've made you apparently obligatory attempts at resolution, so yeah, " LETS MOVE ON AS THOUGH NOTHING EVER HAPPENED". (Yeah, Right) -Thomas
Class Envy might not be as bad as racism, but apologizing for racist comments with some classist ones will not make you better in everybody's eyes.
And not all people who employ domestic workers are cruel bastards, they probably won't get into work on a big snow day, why do you think they expect their domestic workers to do so?
And not all people who employ domestic workers are cruel bastards, they probably won't get into work on a big snow day, why do you think they expect their domestic workers to do so?
John may have a point here. The Citibank executive from Old Westbury who can't make it into work because the LIRR shuts down will end up using a vacation or personal day - if it's really bad, his absence will be excused without his having to use any days off. But the domestic worker from Hempstead who can't make it to work because LI Bus shuts down will lose a day's pay.
It's not the same. Mandarin and Cantonese, along with other "dialects" of Chinese are completely different languages.
So much so that Chinese programs are subtitled so non-Mandarin speakers can understand.
The writing is the same because it's hieroglyphic.
>>>It's not the same. Mandarin and Cantonese, along with other "dialects" of Chinese are completely different languages.
So much so that Chinese programs are subtitled so non-Mandarin speakers can understand.
The writing is the same because it's hieroglyphic.
Pork: You're right that at least some of the dialects of Chinese
were completely separate languages originally. (Not all were: Fukien and Taiwanese, for example, are very similiar - and many Taiwanese people came from Fukien and nearby parts of China).
The written language was standardized by the monarchy for state-building purposes, several dynasties ago (I'm not familiar with which one). I cannot remember anyone else referring to the written language as hieroglyphic, although it is based on characters that each represent a syllable/sound and may have been originally derived (millenia ago) from picture writing.
-cordially,
turnstiles
>>> although it is based on characters that each represent a syllable/sound <<<
I think you have it backward. If each character represented a syllable/sound, it would be a phonetic character set, and the same written language could not support two entirely different spoken languages. The characters are ideograms, each representing an idea.
Tom
>>>I think you have it backward. If each character represented a syllable/sound, it would be a phonetic character set, and the
same written language could not support two entirely different spoken languages.
Tom: Sorry, I forgot to mention that the same character is often pronounced differently by different dialects. I have a somewhat limited knowledge of Chinese language, but this is true.
-crodially,
turnstiles
Chinese writing is completely hieroglyphic, in that each symbol refers to a word, or idea, regardless of each pronunciation in a given language. It's kinda like a picture of a cigarette with a red circle and diagonal slash ala Ghostbusters. For this reason Japanese people can read Chinese, but not vice versa. Vietnamese and Korean used the same character set, while speaking different languages, until a few centuries ago. And Taiwan speaks Mandarin Chinese, as the majority of the population are Mandarin Han, having fled there during the Civil War. There are, however, "indigenous" Taiwanese, who speak "tai wan hua", but are regarded as Australian Aborigines or Quebecois Inuits by most Taiwanese. They are further untrusted as outsiders as Taiwan was a colony of Japan (as was Korea) for over a century until the end of WWII. A further complication is that the Communist mainland Chinese greatly simplified their characters in the hope of increasing literacy, while Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore retained the traditional characters. I may be mistaken on some accounts, but perhaps Chao Hwa can correct me, as I believe he is Taiwanese.
>>>And Taiwan speaks Mandarin Chinese, as the majority of the population are Mandarin Han, having fled there during the Civil War. There are, however, "indigenous" Taiwanese, who speak "tai wan
hua", but are regarded as Australian Aborigines or Quebecois Inuits by most Taiwanese.
phillyguy: First off, thanks for your insightful post. My understanding, including from two visits (one extended) to Taiwan years ago, was that the majority of people in Taiwan (indigenous Taiwanese are not a majority on the island) speak both Taiwanese and Mandarin. Of course, I am very open to further input from all on this one.
Yes, Taiwan was most definitely occupied by the Japanese from some time, even before WWII. At least one relative living in Taiwan when it was occupied was actually sent to school as a girl in Japan (these were fairly wealthy relatives) and educated (at least in part) in Japan.
I found it most interesting when you noted that Japanese can read Chinese but not vice versa. Needless to say, I have never heard of this before. Could you tell us a bit more about this, if you'd like. Thanks.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Japanese uses 3 writing systems: Kana (which are Chinese characters, used for nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc.), Hiragana, a syllabary (which are used for the very few truly Japanese words, as well as particles [i.e. -ing, -ed, -ly, will -, although much more extensive than these examples, such as indicating subject, direct object, indirect object, etc.]), and Katakana (used for the quite extensive foreign loan-words, such as Aisu-kuurimu [ice cream], or your own name). Thus a Japanese sentence may use all three, but a Chinese person would only be able to read the Kana (thus making the sentence unintelligible). I went to Chinatown here in Philly with a Japanese friend of mine, and he could tell me exactly what all the signs meant (e.g. Small Mountain, Lucky Family) but not know how to pronounce them. A Chinese person could not do this, because of the several alphabets used by the Japanese.
I forgot to mention: Kana (Chinese characters) are hieroglyphic: each character refers to an idea. Hiragana and Katakana are syllabaries, and each refers to a syllable. They are very similar, but Hiraga is more cursive, while Katakana is more angular. They both have a finite number of characters depicting the sounds: a, e, i, o, u, ka, ke, ki, ko, ku, and so on throughout the consonant-vowel combos. There are exceptions of course, but you can see from this that both hiragana and katakana each have about 100 symbols. It is this which Chinese speakers cannot read.
I think you mean "Kanji" which are Chinese characters used in Japanese. "Kana" is a generic term referring to the two syllabic alphabets, Hiragana or Hirakana and Katakana. Hiragana is used to write native Japanese words and to inflect verbs etc. Katakana is used to write foreign words and phrases, or to provide emphasis for native Japanese words. Kanji is not hieroglyphic, but are ideograms.
That is, their meaning is constant, expressing an idea. The "readings", or pronounciation of Kanji can change depending on thier usage, but they always express the SAME idea. Most Kanji are similar to the original Chinese characters, and would be recognized by a person who reads Chinese, regardless of dialect, although they would not necessarily be able to pronounce the correct Japanese reading of the Kanji. There are some Japanese only Kanji, that are not known in Chinese, and of course, there are many Chinese characters not used in Japanese.
Oh, I meant Kanji for Kana, which refers to the other two collectively.
>>> For this reason Japanese people can read Chinese, but not vice versa. <<<
Why can the Japanese read the Chinese characters, but the Chinese can not read the Japanese characters? When I was last in Japan (1970), I noticed that there was both a traditional ideograph written language and a phonetic written language. The signs, particularly in Tokyo were largely phonetic, but in the countryside seemed to be ideographs? Although Chinese would not be able to read the phonetics, what prevents them from understanding the ideographs?
Tom
Japan dropped Traditional Chinese characters after WWII.
It has its own simplified Chinese characters set which is also quite
different from the one used in Mainland China.
Which also means that most Japanese born after WWII
don't read Traditional chinese and even fewer people
can read Simplified Chinese used in Mainland.
Characters that originally had simpler design like "one" or center"
remained the same in all currently used character sets.
They didn't need to be simplified. So Chinese people shouldn't
have trouble reading them. But then again words do not necessarily
means the same things, even if they are written exactly the same.
A good example is the two-character word written using the
character "hand" and "paper". In Japanese, it means "letter"
(that you write, send and receive), in Mandarin (and maybe other dialects),
it means "toilet paper"!!
I am simplifying a long story that could make a whole chapter,
but I hope you get the idea.:-)
Well they are referred to as dialects, but unintellegible from one another. Cantonese sounds totally different from Mandarin, and has many more tones (Mandarin is a fairly new language compared to Cantonese).
Subtitles do help bridge the gap between Mandarin and Cantonese speakers, but "simplified" written chinese is used in the Mainland to further complicate matters.
Most chinese characters I see are Traditional though, as most Chinese music CD's and magazines come from HK or Taiwan where the traditional set is used.
Of course therea re other "dialects" of Chinese, such fujianese, which is spoken in Fujian province as well many parts of Taiwan.
I'm curious as to what dialects subway announcements are in China. I assume it is in Mandarin. So hopefully Mandarin is widely understood in mainland China so when I learn, I'll be able to communicate properly when I visit someday.
As a historian, I never intended to learn a spoken Chinese language, as they vary so much over both time and space. One of its greatest advantages is its uniformity (in the written form). So far I've learned about 200 characters (by meaning alone; I couldn't tell you how to pronounce them), but it seems much easier than I originally thought. (although, I'm pretty good at languages, and it's easy to seem like you know something when you needn't actually speak to anyone.) 10 more years and I'll be reading Mao's Little Red Book. I can't wait to get to his feelings on mass transit, although I'm sure they're positive.
Mandarin is the dialect used in subways in Beijing IIRC when I was in China in July 1990 for only a month. Mandarin is also used in train announcements when I rode one from Shanghai to Tianjin and Beijing. Being the government the way it is and was, the announcements on the trains included the (recorded) Chinese national anthem and CCP propaganda. Don't remember the same thing with the subways though. It's also been almost 11 years so my memory is very faint. I was still a kid then and didn't paid too much attention to trains and subways.
I gather not much english is used on Chinese subway trains, so visiters should have a basic knowledge of Mandarin chinese.
If they're playing the National Anthem and Communist Party propaganda on the speakers, perhaps the MTA should have shipped them the R-16s when they got rid of them from the Eastern Division. The speakers on those babies worked worse than the rest of the car did, so the riders in Beijing would never have to be bothered with those annoying announcements :-)
John;
You and other Sub Talkers might find this site interesting regarding Chinese language.
http://zhongwen.com/
Tom
Thanks!
Tom: Thanks. I'll be browsing through that site.
-cordially,
turnstiles
and then there are many different dialects in different parts of the United States alone.
Not even as many as in England!
Many of the Caribbean islands are Spanish-speaking. And all the other countries in Central America also speak Spanish.
I only know of Puerto Rico, Cuba and the Dominican Republic. In fact, when I was in the ninth grade, my friend (who went to elementary school with me) had called me with help for his Spanish homework in finding three countries in the Carribean and Central and South America (three each) that spoke Spanish. In his class, one example given was Puerto Rico. I even took out an atlas to find a third country that spoke Spanish that WASN'T Puerto Rico.
Eventually, I told him to put US in parentheses next to Puerto Rico.
Dear John: BASTA, Bastard! I thought SubTalk unspoken etiquette was to avoid religion, race, and politics! It is obvious that you need to be schooled in this,as well as re-educated in certain misconceptions you hold so allow me the "honor". . .
Your posting was by far the most racist and inflammatory one I've ever seen on this bulletin board and there really is no place on it. So speaking spanish makes one a "Mexican"? Well obviously some are, including the SubTalker whose response you are reading right now. That's right, even the ethnic group you've so very callously denigrated here is represented here at SubTalk, where as I understand it all ethnic and racial groups are represented here and considered as equals in subway and mass-transit camradderie and fellowship. Although I'm equally glad to celebrate upcoming St.Patrick's Day as my father's side is evenly Irish and English, I am especially proud of my Mother's third generation Mexican-American heritage. Yes, that's right, third generation- and you though we all SWAM the RIO GRANDE just barely yesterday and only illegally entered this country!
My Mother's ancestral family lived in Texas when it still BELONGED TO MEXICO, as did what is now called Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada. (Did you think nearly half of all US cities and State names are Spanish Names merely by coincidence?)After it parts were sold by General Santa Anna to the US while others basically stolen by the US, they were already long settled and accepted the US unconditional offer to stay. So you see, contrary to popular belief, we didn't all cross the boder, for many of us, the border simply crossed us as it receded. Three generations later, my Mom's family wisely decided that they weren't really ever going to get anywhere working in some already rich white man's farm, ranch, or factory and helping him to get even richer, and decided to move from Texas to New York in search of better work and education, as well as the chance to own a house and prosper amongst our own people. Isn't this the reason why anyone immigrates to America and then NY in particular?!
The worst part of being what I am is probably sitting next to someone like you on a train and having him thinking I just barely got here, refuse to learn and don't speak english, am recieveing welfare or am employed through affirmative action, staunchly roman-catholic, etc., when in fact I am a native born US Army veteran, Hell's Kitchen produced, fluently monolingual, 2nd generation railroader who roots for the Mets, Knicks, and Yanks, and thinks the NYC mass transit system and the city itself are the greatest in the entire world and ever so close to my heart.
Ignorant racist a**holes like you are the reason had such a hard time growing up in NYC and Jersey City, (and you probably though we all moved immediately to LA and Chicago the second our green cards were finalized)and feel such a deep moral responsibility to educate people like you that not ALL of us Hispanics are "Mexican" and those of us WHO ARE, whether recently arrived or here for the past hundred years, obviously have just as much right to be here as any other immigrant ethnic group does!!!
So sarapes (pronounced za-ra-pay) Mexican blankets, the smell of tacos, and (what you've probably mistakenly believed to be) Ranchero bands upset you? Then simply don't ride the Subway, MFer!! A fellow like you in Germany in the late 1930s like you believed also alot in eliminating ethnic undesireables and immigrants and took his little "message" of wholesale hatred and racial purity nearly all the way, and by the time could finally be put in his place, as indeed I am doing to you now and right here, his come-uppance, nearly 6 million ethnics, handicapped and infirm, religious minorities, etc., were dead.
I just find it very impractical and unreasonable for you to expect only certain ethic groups that you of course judge to be desireable should be live in NYC and ride NYCT MTA, given the cities history as a great melting pot. Exactly what Native American Indian tribe are you full-bloodedly descended from, anyway? I was just wondering because you sure do seem to dislike the idea of anyone except you and your own kind to ride the #7 or live in NYC, and as far as I'm concerned, these are the ONLY people who truly have the right to say: "This is MY land, why don't you go back to where you came from?"
You had better pray I never find out who you are or if you work for NYCTA. The MTA simply doesn't need narrow-minded bigoted a**holes like you, especially when they'll invariably come into contact with racial groups they openly dislike. I have "suit"ed family who work at JAY and I will quite simply see you either drummed out or made to be so misearable you'll quit on your own. Additionally, let me say I'm actually not surprised you don't list your e-mail address or anything else indentifiable about yourself. This is because all of you bigots and racists are, when all outer layers are stripped away as with an artichoke, merely SCARED IGNORANT COWARDS deep down in their cores.
Do me, yourself, and this entire board a huge favor and disassociate yourself immediately and take your stereotyping and racist hate-mongering elsewhere, like perhaps a good KKK bulletin board. And get a doctor soon for that athlete's mouth you are undoubtedly by now afflicted with, and get to steppin'. CLASS OVER. >:-(
Thomas the "Mexican-American" Subway Engine (Orale, RAZA!!!!)
Thomas, while a agree with the general direction of your posting, it surely did not make you look like a shining star. I think you could have conveyed your appropriately strong message without the repeated profanity. Only weak arguments need profanity to make them seem stronger. I don't think that John works for the MTA but as for your 'suited' relatives at jay making anyone so miserable that they would quit, are you sure they (your relatives) would appreciate being used to threaten others? Are you next going to tell John that your daddy is a policeman? That's a childish ploy, Thomas. I'm quite sure that John realizes that he's seriously erred and will attempt to set things right, without your threats and without your profanity.
I really don't think what I said was racist at all. It seems everytime I make an honest observation I get flamed for it. So the number 7 train has alot of hispanic riders. Every train has it's own culture and flavor, that's what makes NYC the wonderful place that it is.
You can experience a world of culture just by riding the subway.
Most people from Mexico, central America, and South America do speak spanish but I guess there are regional differences. There are several spanish langauge radio stations in NYC because there is a large spanish speaking audience.
That was not what you communicated in your first post. Its tone was negative and the context of your language was derogatory.
I had a feeling it was abit derogatory after thinking about it, but that was clearly not my intention.
From now on to avoid these mis-understandings I will no longer post any subjects about cultures that ride the subway. Since subways carry such a diverse group of people it is wrong to generalize, and I won't do it again.
You are smoking some really good mary-jane if you think a simple and insincere band-aid like this one is enough to get you off the hook on this. BTW-if you ever have to question yourself whether or not something is derogotory or not, chances are it probably is and doesn't deserve to be posted, you ignorant miscreant. to avoid mistunderstandings like this, MFer, simply stop posting anything at all!
>:-( -ThomasTheSubwayEngine
Thomas: As my hero Abraham Lincoln said to General Grant about the South at the end of the American Civil War, "let them down easy, let them down easy." John made a mistake and I think he's sorry. Actions speak louder than words, and maybe you should keep on the hunt for what he says in the future. He may just have gotten carried away. Give it a little time.
Allright, allright, allright! It takes a big man to admit being wrong, and to try to correct himself. Peace, and look whut we done started, everone at Subtalk hating and flaming on eachother!!! Are you proud of this? Becasue I sure as hell am not, and feel partially responsible for this. Any stated plans for retribution, ad hominem barbs, cusswords, etc., were said purely in the heat of the moment and are obviously not intended. Boys and Girls, don't try this at home!!!! Peace and Love Thomas:/
HELLO!!!! EARTH to TRAIN DUDE!!!!! The guy's heritage was basically trashed and streotyped and you're jumping all over his case!? Give me a damn break! How would you like it if someone trashed your heritage, talked about your family!? I think you'd get a little pissed off too! God, people!
So in other words, if it wasn't his herritage, it would be allright? If it's not your herritage, it isn't racism? Racism is racism whether it's my race, your race or anyone elses race. When we see it we should all be offended. Besides, I didn't say thomas was wrong to be upset. I said he was wrong to answer with profanity. I also said that the way he suggested he'd get retribution was inappropriate and childish. DID YOU MISS THAT? You obviously are not the brightest bulb in the box.
BTW: My final comment is not racism unless you are a Sylvania
What about GE, Westinghouse, and the Pathmark generic brand, huh?
Peace and God Bless, Thomas:)
What you just posted was the oldest trick in the book on how to bypass the point. My point was that why are you jumping all over him when he has the right to be upset after his heritage was trashed! YOU came up with the ass backwards idea that I thought it was only racism if it was his heritage! While you're at it, learn how to spell heritage before you call anyone a dim bulb you illiterate asshole! And NO I did not miss you being the "Morality Police" and giving him a scolding! THAT'S THE REASON I POSTED IN THE FIRST PLACE YOU DULL RUSTY KINFE!!!!!! Stop trying to tuck tail and be evasive you idiot and respond to the damn argument without coming up with some lame-ass sarcasm you MF!
>>>BTW: My final comment is not racism unless you are a Sylvania<<<
BTW: My final comment is learn some damn grammar!
Jason, buddy, I don't think I was jumping on Thomas and I don't think Thomas thought I was jumping on him. The thrust of my post (mis-spellings and all) was that he had a right to be angry but he expressed it in an inappropriate way. He accepted my comment - I assume, in the spirit that it was presented.
Now as for you, I couldn't care what your point is or was. Nor do I care that you think that I'm an illiterate asshole. I also won't respond in kind to your other rantings. Instead, keep this in mind: I get paid a lot of money to do a job that you go to bed each night, spanking your monkey, wishing you could do for free. Life is great, Jason.
>>>Instead, keep this in mind: I get paid a lot of money to do a job that you go to bed each night, spanking your monkey, wishing you could do for free<<
You have sex with 15 yr. old girls? You my friend are sick and I want nothing to do with you.
OK guys, time to put an end to this. Dude is one of my closest friends on this site, and you and I have butted heads before. But I know you are an enthusiatic advocate for what you believe, and I have come to admire you for that, despite our barbs in the past. Let's see if we can put this to rest and not get ourselves in a stew that might lead to permanent hard feelings. I know. I have two guys on this site that are not on pleasant speaking terms with me, and that is no victory for any of us.
I for one could not agree more if my life depended on it. Please see my other umpteen postings on this issue where I basically paraphrase this. Gotta go now, as my wife has just announced she has a REAL $125 dollar Cuban (no rcial reference intended) cigar. Peace to All and please STOP THE HATING AND FLAMING!!!! Sincerely, Thomas :)
Remember when we used to talk about trains and leave out anything that would sully this board by going way off topic?
ALSO....................
Remember when Dave Pirmann shut down BusTalk a while back because the BusTalkers were getting out of hand by slinging cyber mud at each other? BusTalk seems well behaved by comparison.
BALL'S IN YOUR COURT FELLAS'S !
Bill "Newkirk"
Please, pretty please, both Jason, RTS 2150, and anyone else involved, there has been way too many flaming and ad-hominem attacks as of late that really need to end. Please, I thank you all for you genuine concern and opinions, but must ask that you all PLAY NICE!!! As I've already stated in another similar post, if I'd known that my response to Johns posting would've caused this much dissention and debate, I'd of just suffered in silence. I honestly love, respect, and admire you all, even those of you I may consistently disagree with, as I know the man on the cross did, too. (no disrespect to any other religions, big proactive apologies to Dave for touching upon religion but this was very necessary). But if I am to continue to truly value and consider your opinions, then we all really need to get away from all this hating! I've already made my peace with my tomentor, and advise you all to do the same ASAP!!
BTW: The concept and availability of all of us even having a fine forum such as SubTalk is I feel far, far BIGGER than merely any one SubTalker's hurt feelings, so lets preserve what we have!
Peace and Inclusion to all, Thomas :)
RTS: I think Train Dude was just trying to defuse a very inflammed situation, and I don't think you should cable him from outer space, or he saying you're not the brightest bulb in the box. This was obviously a racial slander that came from John whether he realized it or not. What makes this bad is that it is not something like politics, trains, bridges, or sports teams where can argue, get hot and then cool off. Racial matters can fester a long time and cause irreparable harm to relationshiops. It is time for all this to simmer down, so I will act as peacemaker and implore all of you to let it all down easy, let it all down easy.
Fred the mediator.....hmmmm. Now that's different.....;-)
Just don't diss the Sea Beach line and you'll be OK
There you go Mr. MP. That's exactly right. And I would hope that is how you feel, too. I'm outnumbered on this site by the Brighton and West End boys and I need all the backup I can get. Thanks for the plug. I can use it.
Actually, Fred, I'm a (blasphemy of all blasphemies) an IRT fan!! But when I wrote that, I was in a touchy-feely-Alan Alda mood, and I know how sensitive you are about the Sea Beach, so I thought I'd make a pre-emptive strike at any misguided soul who dared to disparage the mighty Sea Beach line.
:)
Elliot
You're still an ok guy in my book, and I'll overlook your loyalty to the IRT. Actually I like the #7 line. I find it an exciting ride, especially when you see so many different types of people on board. I find that stimulating, and, besides, that's the train that goes to Shea Stadium and it is always a treat when I can get to see the Mets in person.
Here's hoping somebody spots John Rocker so we can chain him to the storm door and take him for a ride on the seven. ESPECIALLY on a day like today. :)
It wouldn't do a bit of good Selkirk my man. He's do dumb to see the forest from the trees. It would be a complete waste of time.
Yeah, you're right ... if we were to chain him to the storm door of a #7 train, I'm afraid he'd LIKE it. :)
Can you also overlook that I'm a Yankee fan?
If you put a blindfold on me, perhaps. I have been a Yankee hater since 1947 when I first became a seven year old Brooklyn Dodger fanatic.
You were seeing my real side-----my warm and compassionate side, and, if you will believe it, my authentic side.
Right you are, Fred, simply look at the ethnic cleansing in the former Yogoslavia- that's ethnic tension that has been simmering for more than 400 years! I, too, implore any and all involved to "let it down easy", but I quite seriously doubt anyone and then especially myself will ever be able to dissacociate John from his comments, EVER.
Peace, Thomas ;-)
Dear Train Dude, no, it probably didn't make me look like a shining star, but then again I'm not running for political office or am a major sports celebrity role-model, either. The purose of that posting, I think, was to convey extremely impassioned and angry sentiment, and I think I've done that very well, although you are once
again correct this time about the profanity issue, though. Geez, I thought ANYONE had enough common sense to staw away from the race, religion, or politics issue; and clearly some don't. I really, really hope and pray I don't ever personally meet this guy.If somehow I do, believe me when I say he will rue that day for all time.
BTW:Friends and family at Jay, having already been apprised and even seen the offending post themselves, havnt indicated any kind of reluctance whatsover to go forward. . . Peace and God Bless, Thomas:)
"BTW:Friends and family at Jay, having already been apprised and even seen the offending post themselves, havnt indicated any kind of reluctance whatsover to go forward. ."
As I said previously, I don't condone racism. I also don't think John is an employee. TA rule #10 prohibits conduct by employees (on or off duty)
I also don't think John is an employee.
No, he's not... he doesn't have a job at all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"BTW:Friends and family at Jay, having already been apprised and even seen the offending post themselves, havnt indicated any kind of reluctance whatsover to go forward. ."
As I said previously, I don't condone racism in any form. I also don't think John is a TA employee. TA rule #10 prohibits conduct by employees (on or off duty) that would lead to criticism of the TA. Racist activities would seem to be covered under that rule. However, John's comments were (racist) observations but not directed at any particular person. I'm by no means an expert but as unfortunate as those remarks were, I believe that they would, therefore, fall into the catagory of free speech and not subject to TA scrutiny. Besides, Thomas, I learned a long time ago not to use gunpowder when flee powder will do.
My response was posted to the wrong place Here it is.
Tom
Please see my other umpteen postings and responses to this matter which has already gotten way out of hand. Again, your points are well taken, "Dude", but PLEEEEZE apologize to RTS2150 for some pretty vengeful rebuttals that even make MY response pale in comparison!!
Peace and Good Will to All, Thomas :)
Amen. I totally agree. I'm an African-American but I see the racist undertones come shining through from that post. There are always differences made and I'm surprised this one went on so long. Had he said they should've called that train the African Express, and it smelled like stinky babies, B/O, hair grease, chitlins, and had rap crap playing all the time he would've been flamed out of here. I can't stand racist or people who use streotypes like that. Just like when my friends at school said George Bush is a racist becuase he let Gary Grahm die. HELLO! The guy was a convicted murderer! Well just like that ignorance, I can't stand this either. You stated your point greatly.
Well maybe calling the 7 train "The International Express" has racist undertones as well, since it clearly refers to immigrants.
I made the mistake of posting a subject about cultural observations while riding the 7 train, and I will never do that again. I am not a racist, I appreciate the culture of NYC and enjoy it. NYC would be a boring city without the many different immigrants that come. In fact, NYC wouldn't exist as it is today without immigrants from Asia, Central and South America, Africa, as well as many other places.
Now please, lets get back to the most important part of the thread, which are SUBWAY PROBLEMS.
There was no Queens bound E or F for at least 20 minutes around 2pm yesterday, does anybody know what happened?
Yes, the T/Os, C/Rs, and riders alike all heard you were waiting at that station and purposefully had the tower switch track to bypass it altogether. >:-( -Thomas
I think you're getting too upset over John's posting. He's posted a lot on Subtalk over the past year or so, and I wouldn't characterize his opinions as racist or xenophobic - though admittedly there's a fine line being drawn. He seems to be rather timid when it comes to urban society. Witness all his Sodom-and-Gomorrah postings about Flushing and its "gangs of thugs." But that doesn't translate into a hatred of foreigners and foreign culture; as he's pointed out ad nauseum, he's fascinated with Chinatown and attracted to Chinese women. If I had to guess, I'd say that John has no problem with a different culture if he's familiar with it (Chinatown), but reacts timidly if it's something new to him (the Mexicans or other Hispanics on the 7).
As grand as that proposal may be, that won't get him anywhere in life. He has to remember where he lives and that if he's to go past his front door there're a few thing he's going to have to get used to and if he can't get used to them, he needs to move to an ignorant all white suburb where foolish stereotypes are readily accepted as scripture.
Note to Idiots: Don't try to like turn this post around so I can appear racist and harsh because anyone with half a brain knows what I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to say all white suburbs are idiots and have ignorant racist views. But we do know there are those that do. Now, you may go back to your lives of planning another clever (note the sarcasm) flame about masturbation or other non-sense directed towards me.
>>> he needs to move to an ignorant all white suburb where foolish stereotypes are readily accepted as scripture <<<
And where did you think he lives now?
Tom
Thanks a million not just for the posting, but also for some months ago clearing up a misunderstanding between Pork and myself regarding the proleteriat. A few days later, Dave P. announced that Porky would no longer be contributing here at SubTalk, and I was afraid my hot-tempered response to him had had something to do with it. I apologized to him and posted that I was hoping he'd decide to stay, and he did. Believe it or not, greater than my dislike of racial hatred or careless ignorance is my love of inclusion for all(vs. exclusion) and freedom of speech. The person who made that initial posting I think has by all appearances learned his lesson and won't be a recuriing problem anymore. Again, kudos to RTS2150, Train-Dude, and yourself for taking up for me.
:) Peace and God Bless, Thomas.
You amplified your remark to make it very clear. Anyone who cannot understand it is a moron. It was well said, and, as you intimated before, there are racist comments coming from all races now, and we have to be on guard for them and give whoever comes out with them the you know what. It seems so simple to me to judge people one at a time and not in groups. Sometimes I wonder why some people cannot do that.
I enjoyed reading your post, and almost compltely agree save for minor exceptions. Youv'e responded to some of my other posts in the past in fine style and content, and based upon your vouching for John as being merely xenophobic and misguided, I am prepared to leave it at that. I try and to refrain from Ad Hominem responses even when I am the one initially being flamed, but just couldn't and wouldn't in a million years let this one go. Big apologies to any and all who feel I may have gone a tad bit overboard. I guess the moral of this whole dabacle of a story is essentially THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK. (!)
Peace, Love, Tolerance, and Acceptance to all, Thomas:)
OK!!!!!! So the worst is over now and we can get back to our usual arguments about which train is the best, and why everything still stinks on the Manny B. Of course, we all know the Sea Beach is No 1 of the trains, and the Mets are going all the way this year.
If the Sea Beach is number 1, why was it given the number 4?
How many times do I have to tell you Dullton Beach Bob. Since the Sea Beach was so stupendous, a silly number one would never do. But to keep the Brighton from getting completely embarrassed and humiliated Sea Beach settled for #4, just to "stay in the neighborhood". so to speak. But four is four times more than one, so the message was clear. Got it now?
By your reasoning, the 14th Street-Canarsie Line (modern day L) was the greatest train of all, sixteen times better than the Brighton and four times better than the Sea Beach.
Touche!!!
Leave it to Bob and Fred to steer the ship back to a nice, friendly Brighton vs Sea Beach debate.
Unfortunately, the folks who developed the BMT number code are deceased by now. Maybe they were all Brighton fans.:-) Sorry, Fred.
I just had to laugh at this remark and Porks 16 times better. thought the L(16) was 16 times slower
I just had to laugh at this remark and Porks 16 times better. thought the L(16) was 16 times slower
I'm not sure how that (slowness) argument works with the Canarsie line, but it definitely works when comparing the Sea Beach and Brighton line.
Stay out of this argument you young whippersnapper. This is between Bob and me. The Sea Beach could have taken that number but it didn't want to humiliate the Brighton.
No the reason why the Sea Beach got 4, was that there was always 2 Brightons, and only 1 Slow Bunch edven in the olden days./ Beside OLD Fred, you admitted that the Brighton was your second favorite Line. Mine was the IRT Flushing line
>>>Mine was the IRT Flushing line
Bob: Good choice!:) I think it's a really fascinating elevated with frequent service, high speeds on the express, many different kinds of people, and many destinations along the route.
-cordially,
turnstiles
With the understanding that I am not an impartial observer in this continuing controversy, I'd like to propose a solution. With the cooperation of Vince McMahon and the WWF, I'm proposing a good old fashion Brooklyn "Hot Fudge Sunday" Wrestling Match between Brighton Beach Bob and Seabeach Fred.
Now, although Fred and I share a certain comradery, I'd really have to be Bob's manager (considering my love of the Brighton line). I'm sure Doug will gradly stand up for Fred. I think heypaul could step in as the referee (he looks great in stripes) and porky can be the timekeeper. I propose that all proceeds go to two worthy causes.
1) Send John for sensativity training.
2) Send our friens, Saalam a storm door.
Don King eat your heart out!!!!!!!!!
1) Send John for sensativity training.
2) Send our friens, Saalam a storm door.
3) New clock fund.
[I'm sure Doug will gradly stand up for Fred.]
Upon reading this I gagged on my own three-hour old White Castle burgers!
Yeah, I'd stand up for Fred -- and show him the door!
NO WAY, Steve, I'm a die-hard, born-in-the-wool Brighton Beach Bum. The Brighton is much too scenic to be second to the Sea Breech Line.
I have Bill "Newkirk" as backup on this one.
BMTman
Doug, we certainly don't need you to be siding with the enemy:)
Yeah, I too prefer the D to the N. At least there's hope for getting down to Stillwell at a certain time.....
-Stef
Yeah, and with the Brighton Line service doesn't get held up because some kid decided to 'subway surf' and literally 'lose his head' in the process making for serious train delays.
BMTman
Hey Stef: I didn't know you south Bronxites took much interest in our BMT battles. The IRT is more in your balliwick so why not stay there? On second thought, why not. Get involved. There's always room for one more, and besides, this is real fun, isn't it. I wouldn't to deprive anyone from having a little fun.
How about a race from Stillwell to 34 st thru seabeach & brighton to see who gets there 1st.
Why, the slants on the Q, of course.:-)
Of course the Brighton. I times them last year. The Slow Beach 55 minutes, The D 47 minutes,and the slow beach was supposed to be Exp on 4th Ave.
From 34th st, which will get there (Coney) first?
D, B, F or N?
B-D-N-F In that Order, Remember the D is a Local South Of West 4th, The B is Express in Bklyn
You bet. Put the Sea Beach on the express tracks and we'd beat the Brighton all to hell.
NEVER HAPPENED NEVER WILL. Take a Brighton Exp to Kings Hwy or Sheapshead by, cross the platform to a waitin Local, and still will beat you 2 Brightons to 1 Slop Bunch. By the way are we still on for the 20th?
We are definately still on on the 20th. Looking forward to it. Buzz me as soon as you can and we'll get together to eat, laugh, and argue like hell.
I hope this rendezvous is taped for posterity.:-)
Fred, I like a good fight. And I shall go where I please. Why don't I just stay in the IRT? And miss out on the fun? Oh noooooooo.
Chao.
You noticed I changed my tune and said why not? You're right. This Brighton-Sea Beach battle is real fun. BTW, Brighton Beach Bob and I are having dinner together March 20th when he's in California, so the rivalry is friendly but fierce. Does the IRT have any rivalries like the BMT buddies do? If not, then join in on the fun. Don't worry this argument will continue on indefinately. But this is not a rivalry that will end up with flamage. This is good fun and we want all of the guys to enjoy it. So enjoy.
Yeh about the Lex Lines vs the 7th Ave lines and the 7 as the umpire. I ll take the Lex since it goes to Yankee Stadium home of THE WORLD CHAMPION 3 in a row, 4 of 5 YANKEES
Enjoy is now because the time is coming when even George's money is not going to keep your boys from going the way of the 65-75, and 82-95 Yankees, the Yankees I remember most fondly. I even rooted for the Dodgers over your boys when the LA Bums swept them three in a row at Dodger Stadium in the '81 World Series. Was there for all three games. If left a bad taste in my mouth but was worth it so long as it meant the Yankees lost.
You noticed I changed my tune and said why not? You're right. This Brighton-Sea Beach battle is real fun. BTW, Brighton Beach Bob and I are having dinner together March 20th when he's in California, so the rivalry is friendly but fierce. Does the IRT have any rivalries like the BMT buddies do? If not, then join in on the fun. Don't worry this argument will continue on indefinately. But this is not a rivalry that will end up with flamage. This is good fun and we want all of the guys to enjoy it. So enjoy.
I just posted a "rivalry" of sorts which crosses divisions in Queens, "Flushing IRT vs. Queens Blvd. IND". Gotta go with what he have. Check it out.
:-) Andrew
Put me down for the IRT in this one. The #7 train goes to magnificent Shea Stadium, home of the magnificent Mets. The IND train doesn't seem to go nowhere. In fact, it never sees the light of day.
Both are great. But, the Brighton has an express, elevated, open cut, underground, everything. As far as I'm concerned, the Brighton is the best subway line in NY. LONG LIVE THE Q TRAIN! And, the Seabeach recently had its Brooklyn-bound express track removed. Any TA employee that removes any piece of BMT track should get the electric chair. Why don't they tear up some of those digusting, polluting highways? Also, lets melt down some of those buses and put trolley tracks back in the streets. Cudos to NJ for building new trolley lines!
Q train sucks. It seems to keep evading that doom known as Montague St. tunnel by picking up odd jobs as the Slaves of the IND D and B.
And, that express track should remain (unless they wanna put platforms at key stops and make it a peak direction express)
A great explanation of why the Brighton is winning the Southern Division debate.
Well Tony the Tiger, I take back what I said previously. You're ok in my book. At least you are a big BMT man. That was the best system and I don't know why in hell the MTA or the TA or whoever put the IND with our BMT. What a crappy system the molelike IND was, never seeing the light of day except for two stops. Just dullsville.
Hey! (grin) At least those of us on the IND didn't get WET waiting for our trains. And when there was a blizzard, our trains still ran. :)
Oh, I wouldn't call the CPW express dash dull. Certainly not in the good old days. However, if you take a D train nowadays, No Doz would be highly recommended.
Right On, Tony! You're THE MAN!
BMTman
>I didn't know you south Bronxites took much interest in our BMT battles. The IRT is more in your balliwick so why not stay there?
Yeah, he should pitch the Dyre Av line, which is like the Brighton or sea Beach line of the Bronx.
(In the far off down the line 2nd Av plans, Brighton and/or Sea Beach trains might run on the Dyre line!)
(In the far off down the line 2nd Av plans, Brighton and/or Sea Beach trains might run on the Dyre line!)
What are you talking about?!?! Evidently you're living in the past.
What past? If this is a possible plan for the FUTURE?
Realistically. Is this going to happen? No. Hell, even a second av. line in Manhttan that will be completed just between uptown Manhattan and 63rd st. won't be done until what 2020? And what would be the purpose of re-working that whole area? Totally pointless. Hooking all that up. I don't think that in our lives we'll see that connection made. (NOTE: I was mistaken when I mentioned that whole past thing, Sorry)
BTW: Culver is better than Dyre too.
As far as connecting the Dyre Avenue to the Second Avenue Subway, that ain't happening unless the TA cancels construction of the bus garage they're building on the site of the old Colosseum Depot and in the path of the old Westchester route. Don't expect that to happen.
What about an extension straight to downtown MOUNT VERNON?
What about Yonkers service? Extend the A or 1/9? Or reclaim the 1/9 as an IND line and extend that to Yonkers?
They should run the IRT broadway line (1/9) to Getty Square in Yonkers. There was actually a plan to extend the IRT White Plains Poad line (2/5) to downtown Mt. Vernon at one time. If you look carefully at the 241st Street station on the IRT White Plains road line you can see that they had set it up with the intention of extending it to Mt. Vernon
BMTJeff
They should run the IRT broadway line (1/9) to Getty Square in Yonkers. There was actually a plan to extend the IRT White Plains Road line (2/5) to downtown Mt. Vernon at one time. If you look carefully at the 241st Street station on the IRT White Plains Road line you can see that they had set it up with the intention of extending it to Mt. Vernon
BMTJeff
The only way the IRT's Dyre Avenue line could really be like the Brighton or the Sea Beach lines in Brooklyn, is for it to have been a longer route. With only five stops and the 5 train often being reduced to shuttle service on the weekends, the Dyre Avenue can not really be in the same league with the Sea Beach or the Brighton. It's definitely better than the elevated IRT lines in the Bronx (2, 4, 6, 1) and Brooklyn (3), but it's just not in the same league with the Brighton and the Sea Beach. Had the Dyre Avenue been made into the Bronx portion of the Second Avenue Subway (making it a BMT/IND line), it would have had more extensive railroad running alongside Amtrak's Northeast Corridor line. Then it could be in the same league with the Brighton and the Sea Beach. But since the TA in its infinte way of short-sightedness, decided to build a bus garage in the the path of the old Westchester line south of 177th Street and we all know what the fate of the Second Avenue Subway is, the Dyre Avenue will not really be like the Sea Beach or the Brighton.
I think the best of all the lines that you mention is the BMT Brighton line in Brooklyn. The Brighton line is one of the best lines in the entire system in my own opinion. Now if they could restore the express tracks on the Sea Beach Line to use that would also be a great run.
BMTJeff
I 100% agree. The TA decided to completely remove the Coney Island-bound express track from service. But they should be offering some kind of express service on the remaining express track. But I do like the Brighton for its intersting stations, especially the local stations below Newkirk.
Attaway guys, keep plugging my Sea Beach. It's music to my ears. I wonder if it's a pipe dream that they may someday refurbish the express tracks on my favorite line. I don't think so. For now I'm hoping to someday see it back as the Broadway Express and zooming over the Manny B. Who knows, maybe someday soon.
If they had a Sea Beach train that was express from Coney Island to 57th Street in Manhattan that would be a great ride. Maybe the best ride in the entire subway system.
BMTJeff
Jeff: Unfortunately the don't, and that's the rub. It bugs me no end that they don't. It also bugs me no end that the Sea Beach has been thrown off the Manny B, and is a local instead of an express. Other than that everything is copasetic.
It would certainly be a great run.
A great run in wastefulness.
The problem with the Sea Beach express is the same one shared by the unused express at the other (Astoria) end of the N route: No intermediate stops. It serves noone except those at the very end. Still, that's something. The folks at the end of the line are the ones who need express service the most.
:-) Andrew
>>>The problem with the Sea Beach express is the same one shared by the unused express at the other (Astoria) end of the N
route: No intermediate stops. It serves noone except those at the very end.
MisterK: Yes, that's absolutely right! - and I'm surprised that noone has made this comparison explicitly before. THe Astoria express track only allows two stops after QB Plaza: AStoria Blvd and Ditmas Blvd; as previous threads here have established, an express stop at BWAy Station (due to high patronage there) would be much more appropriate. The NX was express all the way from 59th/4th AVe. to Coney Island IIRC; thus, all local Sea Beachers are actually unable to use this express.
-cordially,
turnstiles
An Astoria express would make more sense than Sea Beach express, though. Ditmars to QBP is a fairly short line with high ridership, especially at Ditmars & Astoria Blvds where buses unload from the Outer Reaches. Loads would be spread out more evenly, because few would ride the local from Ditmars & Astoria Blvds, and riders getting on between Astoria Blvd and QBP would have less crowded trains to get on.
The NX, on the other hand, served only Sheepshead Bay & Coney Island, which has far more services for its ridership, including the Brighton express, in comparison to Astoria's N or Nothing, and it went a long way before picking up anyone else.
The NX was discontinued due to lack of ridership. This is because of the long stretch without stopping. I believe that today an NX would be appealing if it made all stops between Brighton Beach and Kings Highway, then using the switch to run express to 59th St. But I don't know about track space on 4th Ave, car shortage, etc.
An express stop or two along the Sea Beach line would have made express service much more useful. The whole business of a nonstop run was a good idea in 1915, when the masses used public transit to get to Coney Island, but it's obsolete now.
30 Ave and Broadway serve more customers than Astoria Blvd. Busses also unload many customers at those stations as well. Also from riding it many times during rush hour, the 30 Ave and Bway folks gather more towards the center of the train while the Astoria and Ditmars folk use the ends of the train. But since this is an Astoria vs. Sea Beach express debate, I won't go more into the just Astoria thing.
Can't let Queens be left out of this!
The Flushing line is the most prideful line we have. And it really is something to be proud of! Now if only it were connected to something.
:-) Andrew
I do like the Flushing line since it is elevated for most of the distance.
BMTJeff
>Hey Stef: I didn't know you south Bronxites took much interest in our BMT battles. The IRT is more in your balliwick so why not stay there?<
Because, Fred, the IRT is BORING! It has no variety in its routes (only tunnels and els), too many stops that are too close together (the 2 train is the worst offender - 20 stops in the Bonx alone!), and its subway cars were UGLY and boring, unlike the variety you got in the nice imaginative BMT cars. Even the TA cars that ran on the IRT were cursed with those ugly, boring, black and white route signs in the 70s and into the early 80s, while their BMT/IND counterparts had those nice multi-colored route signs. TA rolling stock on the IRT lines from the R15s to the R36s looked almost exactly the same, while there was so much variety in TA rolling stock on the BMT/IND lines from the R32 on. It was said that the R12 and R14 were the IRT versions of the R10 and that the R17 was the IRT version of the R16. Well, where was the IRT version of the R32, R38, R40 (Slant or Modified) or R42? Why no IRT version of the R44 or 46? Now that would have been cool!
That's why I always liked the BMT and IND lines better, especially the Southern Division. In fact I spent many times riding the Sea Beach and Brighton lines after school at Brooklyn Tech. Had I gone to Bronx Science, my trip there would have been on the bus and I probably never would have explored the subway to the extent that I did while at Tech. And on the way to Science, all I would have seen were boring IRT elevated lines (the 2 and the 4) and C and D trains laying over at Concourse Yard. But while at Tech, I rode everything except the Eastern Division (though I did ride the J, L and Z in Manhattan). I must say that the Sea Beach and the Brighton were the ones I liked the most. Both feel more like riding on a regular railroad because they're not on els above a street, except for the Brighton after Brighton beach. The Brighton has express service both directions on weekdays, which is a definite plus. On the other hand, you get to ride through the Coney Island Yards when you ride the Sea Beach. Too bad, there's no express, though. Although with one express track completely removed from service, maybe some kind of part time express could be provided on the Sea Beach.
As for the one IRT line that does run a railroad ROW, the Dyre Avenue line is a nice run thanks to its widely-spaced stops (definitely the exception on the IRT). Unfortunately, it is too short with only five stops. Maybe if the city could have purchased more of the old Westchester line (maybe up to Mount Vernon or New Rochelle), this line could have had some kind of express service and maybe been the IRT Division's version of the Brighton or Sea Beach.
Hands down, the Brighton is far superior to the Sea Beach.
The Brighton has an express and a local where the Slow Bunch has well, a slow local.
ScottinSF
Doug: I knew you had a serious problem but I couldn't figure out what it was. Eating all those hamburgers with all that marbled fat and cholestoral can certainly account for that seemingly stopped up feeling of yours. Anyone ever tell you you need more bran in your diet? Well I'm telling you, you need it. Hint Hint. Now you can show me the door.
Eating lean adds more years to one's life.
I don't want extra years in my life, if I can't have life in my years.
Therefore I will eat as my tongue dictates, and not the nutritional chart. If necessary, I can exercise, but I will not rob my taste buds of pleasure.
That's what you say now Pork, but let me tell you something---and listen good. YOU WON'T BE TALKING LIKE THAT TWENTY OR THIRTY YEARS FROM NO. I GUARANTEE YOU. If you do you will be in very bad shape. Diet and excercise are no absolute guarantees of good health, but they certainly help a lot. Bad diet and no exercise is a one way ticket to health problems, illnesses, and possibly premature death. I hope you heed what I've just said. It could be the best thing I've ever said on this site. Please pay heed.
That's what you say now Pork, but let me tell you something---and listen good. YOU WON'T BE TALKING LIKE THAT TWENTY OR THIRTY YEARS FROM NO. I GUARANTEE YOU. If you do you will be in very bad shape. Diet and excercise are no absolute guarantees of good health, but they certainly help a lot. Bad diet and no exercise is a one way ticket to health problems, illnesses, and possibly premature death. I hope you heed what I've just said. It could be the best thing I've ever said on this site. Please pay heed.
"With the understanding that I am not an impartial observer in this continuing controversy, I'd like to propose a solution. With the cooperation of Vince McMahon and the WWF, I'm proposing a good old fashion Brooklyn "Hot Fudge Sunday" Wrestling Match between Brighton Beach Bob and Seabeach Fred.'
The match must be a 2 out of 3 fall "cage match". No disqualifications which means bringing third rail protection board brackets, signal heads, R-68 rollsigns, and turnstiles are OK.
If Sea Beach Fred loses, he must denounce the Sea Beach line for a year and must appear in NYC to ride the Brighton Line for a week. He mustn't fly but take a Grayhound bus from the Left Coast too. Last stipulation is he must lecture an auditorium of students at Brooklyn College as to why the the BMT route numbers are 1-Brighton and 4-Sea Beach. That's two route numbers behind the Fourth Ave. local and West End !!
And if BrightonExp Bob loses..............won't happen, because the Brighton is still #1 (numero uno,capice paison !)
Bill "Newkirk"
Brighton line rules
NUFF SAID !
Can't we all just get along? Heh. The Brighton was the line I worked but I've done the Sea Beach too and it's not a bad railroad either. So what if it goes through Bensonhurst? All is forgiven. :)
just the outskirts of Bensonhurst As I stated Fred and I are meeting at his place March 20, and the the match will be a Jewish/Italian Food Fight, best 2 of 3 falls
Who's going to yell "FOOD FIGHT!!!!"?
His dogs will bark twice
Honestly, you two leave me in stitches.
You two would make a great comedy duo. I can see a Brighton vs Sea Beach routine which culminates in either a shouting match or food fight. Kind of what Bob Hope and Bing Crosby used to do in their movies.
What the hell Steve. Maybe Dullton Beach Bob and I get together we can start working on some kind of routine. Good to know we are keeping you happy, and not to mention many others, too. Well we have to liven up the place don't we? So here we go again and again and again and again.
Heh. I have old friends in Bensonhurst ... that's the reason I rode the N in the first place. Getting to Stillwell or Brighton on the D was always much faster. Whoops, I just dissed the SeaBeach. Mea culpa. (grin)
...the match will be a Jewish/Italian Food Fight...
Matzo ball soup, brisket, and noodle pudding will beat minestrone, mussels marinara, and cannolli any day of the week :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But not fusilli, ravioli and lasagna. No way. Sorry, but our food is better. Just ask around. BTW, I thought your type of food fell more in the line of salt pork, mustard greens, grits, and chitlins.
whose food, you are not talking Jewish food, we don t eat pork, you should know better
Allright then, chicken fried steak, turnup greens, grits, chitlins and pecan pie. Is that better? Anon is from the South, you know, Jeff Davis country, and I was just bantering with a real nice guy. Sorry about the pork. I should no better since my daughter is going with a Jewish boy, and we eat over there often. No pork.
You see, that's why Jews and Muslims are my favorite people. They (we in the case of Jews) don't eat me!
Very strange person, indeed!!!
Hindus won t eat you either. But a Good Filipino would serve Pork 500 different ways
I'm a Southern Jew, Fred... no pork for me... I do think the best possible breakfast is three eggs scrambled in butter, grits with more butter, and a basket of fresh hot biscuits with a jar of homemade blackberry jam...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I stand corrected Anon, and I told Brighton Beach Bob that. But your breakfast sounds a lot like a reservation with a heart attack. Wow! Do you really eat that stuff every day? Yikes!!! I now eat oatmeal every morning, along with a garlic pill and a beta glucin vitamin. Smetimes I have yogurt. Surprise surprise. I'm Catholic and I don't eat pork either, that is very very seldom. Don't like it or red meat very much.
Do you really eat that stuff every day?
Only when I'm down home in North Carolina... up in Jersey I don't have time during the week. Breakfast in NJ is usually a couple of Cokes, topped off with a buttered hard roll. On Sunday though, if I feel like baking, I'll do it. I buy enough jam at the fire department fundraiser to last the year... my older son will pick up my annual supply this Saturday since I won't be home. Not sure if there will be enough blackberry this year since the premier producer, Ola V. Perdue, had another mild stroke and moved in with her daughter last fall, but Judy Jeffries makes wonderful muscadine preserves and Ruth Winstead's strawberry preserves are out of this world... (why am I getting the urge to make a batch of biscuits at this hour of the night?)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon: The biscuits and the jam do sound good. I could dive into a pile of them but it's that other stuff that scares the hell out of me. Have a great weekend but don't overdo it.
The biscuits and the jam do sound good.
They are. My younger daughter (home from law school on spring break) got inspired a few minutes ago and is out in the kitchen right now making some... water's almost boiling for the grits, I'll cook the eggs once she gets the biscuits in the oven... we'll have some fig preserves from Ola V. Perdue's own fig trees... wish I could afford to buy her house, it's on the market now, she and her late husband operated a country store so it has a couple of huge rooms that would make a wonderful space for a layout and workshop, plus it's got those fig trees...
Gotta run, the grits are on and the biscuits just went into the oven, my turn in the kitchen :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How does one really eat grits? During my motorcycle trip down to Florida, we would stop for breakfast below the Mason Dixon line and couldn't believe people could punish themselves like that. Yeah, I know - the south lost but that was years ago. Punishment is over. BTW: what's the name of the chain of eateries along I-95 that specialize in breakfast fare (waffle house or something like that)? I can't seem to remember it.
Grits are wonderful, Steve, as long as they're prepared right. I've had a lot that were too watery though - you want them smooth, not soupy. And you can add all sorts of things to them - butter or cheese is common in our household, non-Jewish households often serve them with red-eye gravy and ham or bacon on the side.
And the Waffle House is a common sight along I-95 - you do remember correctly. They're not too bad, and most of them are open 24 hours. We rarely stop to eat on our travels between NJ and NC nowadays - we pack a cooler in the car instead - but there is one in Colonial Heights (VA) where I've stopped a few times when I used to drive at night that was especially good.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Grits ... the tofu of southern dining. For anyone who is not familiar with the customs of Jesse Helms country, Noo Yawkers might want to observe the following protocols:
Issued by the Southern Tourism Bureau to ALL visiting
Northerners And Northeastern Urbanites:
1) Don't order filet mignon or pasta primavera at Waffle House.
It's just a diner. They serve breakfast 24 hours a day. Let
them cook something they know. If you confuse them, they'll
kick your ass.
2) Don't laugh at our Southern names (Merleen, Bodie,
Ovine, Luther Ray,Tammy Lynn, Darla Beth, Inez, Billy Joe,
Sissy, Clovis, etc.). Or we will just HAVE to kick your ass.
3) Don't order a bottle of pop or a can of soda down here.
Down here it's called Coke. Nobody gives a damn whether
it's Pepsi, RC, Dr.Pepper, 7-Up or whatever - it's still a
Coke. Accept it. Doing otherwise can lead to an ass kicking.
4) We know our heritage. Most of us are more literate than
you (e.g.,Welty, Williams, Dickey, Faulkner, O'Henry,
Wolfe, etc.). We are also better educated and generally a
lot nicer. Don't refer to us as a bunch of hillbillies, or
we'll kick your ass.
5) We have plenty of business sense (e.g., Fred Smith of
Fed Ex, Turner Broadcasting, MCI WorldCom, MTV, Netscape).
Naturally, we do sometimes, have small lapses in judgment
(e.g., Carter, Edwards, Duke, Barnes,Clinton). We don't care
if you think we are dumb. We are not dumb enough to let
someone move to our state in order to run for the Senate.
If someone tried to do that, we would kick their ass.
6) Don't laugh at our Civil War monuments. If Lee had
listened to Longstreet and flanked Meade at Gettysburg
instead of sending Pickett up the middle, you'd be paying
taxes to Richmond instead of Washington. If you visit
Stone Mountain and complain about the carving, we'll kick
your ass.
7) We are fully aware of how high the humidity is, so shut
the hell up. Just spend your money and get the hell out of
here, or we'll kick your ass.
8) Don't order wheat toast at Cracker Barrel. Everyone will
instantly know that you're a Yankee. Eat your biscuits
like God intended-with gravy. And don't put sugar on your
grits, or we'll kick your ass.
9) Don't talk about how much better things are at home
because we know better. Many of us have visited Northern
hell-holes like Detroit, Chicago, and DC, and we have the
scars to prove it. If you don't like it here, Delta is ready
when you are. Move your ass on home before it gets kicked.
10) Yes, we know how to speak proper English. We talk
this way because we don't want to sound like you. We don't
care if you don't understand what we are saying. All other
Southerners understand what we are saying, and that's all
that matters. Now, go away and leave us alone, or we'll
kick your ass.
11) Don't complain that the South is dirty and polluted.
None of OUR lakes or rivers have caught fire recently. If
you whine about OUR scenic beauty, we'll kick your ass all
the way back to Boston Harbor.
12) Don't ridicule our Southern manners. We say sir and ma'am.
We hold doors open for others. We offer our seats to old
folks because such things are expected of civilized people.
Behave yourselves around our sweet little grey-haired
grandmothers or they'll kick some manners into your ass just
like they did ours.
13) So you think we're quaint or losers because most of us
live in the countryside? That's because we have enough
sense to not live in filthy, smelly, crime-infested cesspools
like New York or Baltimore. Make fun of our fresh air, and
we'll kick your sorry ass.
14) Last, but not least, DO NOT DARE to come down here and
tell us how to barbecue. This will get your ass shot
(right after it is kicked). You're lucky we let you come down
here at all. Criticize our barbeque, and you will go home in
a pine box.
Minus your ass.
Last, but not least, DO NOT DARE to come down here and tell us how to barbecue. This will get your ass shot (right after it is kicked).
Heck, we have barbecue wars between eastern and western North Carolina. I don't partake of the pig variety, but I like my chicken eastern-style. What they serve in the western part of the state ain't fit for human consumption :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here in upstate, if it ain't cow, sausage or mystery bird, it ain't worth turning on the GAS ... now that oughta qualify me for a traditional whoopin' just for saying "gas" ... heh. No half-55 gallon drums up here, only those yuppie barbies ... and we're supposed to be impressed and "kiss the chef" ... yipe! :)
Selkirk: I',m laughing my ass off. Well done. Hilarious. I hope Anon and other Southerners don't get upset over this. I know it's in fun, but it is really funny. Terrific, and when appropriate keep them coming.
Sounds like most of my new Neighbors in the Northern Shenandoah Valley, real friendly and always say hi.
Ha ha Bob. Think of the irony of it all. You're now a Southerner, and I'm a Yankee.
Yeh, but I go 20 miles North and I am Yankee Country(A Northern State)
Got family in Mauldin and Greenville ... needless to say, we pack our own lunch. Pizza the Hut is about as good as it gets down yonder. :)
I promise not to tell you how to barbecue if you promise not to tell me how to make a cheesesteak.
I wouldn't DARE do that. Been to downtown Philly several times - did a stint at WMMR many many years ago ... about as close as we can get up here is steak-ums on Italian bread with onions and melted cheese (I don't do cheese that comes in a can) ... would love to be able to do the real thing though I was never big on the peppers part. Sure would love to know the secret of the sauce though. But there ya are, proof that I'm completely unqualified to do any whining. :)
Trust me, A-1 is the secret of the sauce (unless you're talking about a pizza steak, in which it's Marinara sauce).
Aw that's too easy. Heh. Thanks for the tip! You can't get the real thing up here ... the little 'burg of 2000 that I live in has some decent pizza that puts most of NYC's pizza places to shame but that's about as good as it gets. You can even get kishka knishes up here and latke (even the REAL knishes, round - not those square things) and Sabrett's ... but Phillyfood, nah ... gotta roll yer own here.
This was the Funniest post I have ever read.
But, Northern people have their own code.
Issued by the Northern 'Terrorism' bureau to all southerners and people who generally talk funny
1. We like living in cramped places up here. Don't insult us for that or the NYPD will be forced to place a bullet in your ass.
2. Don't laugh at our Ghetto names (Laquinta, Jamiqua, Raquan, etc.) If you do, we will not kick your ass, we'll throw it off a project roof.
3. We know OUR heritage. We never was literate. Thus the amount of high school drop-outs. Pointing this out will result in a whipping of your ass
4. We know we let someone else move here to run for senate. Telling us about this will result in a prompt removal of your ass from the state.
5. Don't complain about our dirty streets, or our filthy neighboords. Doing so will land you with an ass whipping.
6. We know it's cold. Yes, that's ice on the ground. Either shut up and deal with it or risk having your ass kicked all the way home
7. Don't order biscuits at an italian reataurant. If you do everyone will know you're a hick, At which time You will be escorted outside for an ass whipping.
8. Don't say things are much better down south, cuz we've been there, and we have the animal bites to prove it. Oddly enough, this does not result in having your ass kicked, shot or whipped, but expect to have your ass held up.
9. No, we do not know how to speak english properly. Any attempt at trying to teach us English will result in a simultaneous ass kicking from the UFT, for being a "non-unionized worker" and from the Board of Ed., for teaching without a liscense.
10. Don't even think about saying that only 'the country' has a music genre named after it. Doing this will result in an ass whipping.
11. Do Not say that 'dogs belong outside'. Doing this will land your ass doing community work for the ASPCA, beginning immeadiately after the ending of your ass whipping.
12. Do not ridicule our lack of manners. We say things like 'Move b*tch' and 'get the hell away from me' on purpose. We don't offer seats to old people or pregnant women. Any attempt to change this will result in Having your ass kicked.
13. Finally, do not insult the way we dress. Whether it's baggy jeans, or a finely made Italian Suit, you do not 'disrespect' the way we dress. Doing so will not result in an ass whipping, kicking, beating or etc.
We will barbaque your ass.
The first time I went to the South in 1973 I was amazed when I ordered breakfast and they gave me grits with my sausage and eggs. ( I ate that kind of food back then). Good God Steve, when I tasted those grits I wanted to heave. They tasted like #$^&#. Like little soft pebbles. I asked for hashed browns and they reacted to me like I was General Sherman returning for another March through Georgia. I told them I was from another part of the country and didn't cotton to grits. They called me a Yankee and I said I ought to learn how to really eat. I said something under my breath. No, I never got those hash browns.
I TOLD YOU WERE A YANKEE
NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING A YANKEE!!!
Then again:
NOTHING WRONG WITH SOUTHERN-STYLE GRITS.
Or southern rural living, where all my relatives who visit from down there are scared of the subway, but not of wild animals.
You should have told them about the Sea Beach.:-)
This can happen on the 20th of March, since Fred and I are having dinner together at his place that evening. But I out weigh him by at least 50 lbs
I would have to depend on quickness. By the way how much are we charging the public to watch this spectacle?
Fred we have to get themout there. The chjeapist air fare between NYC and LAX is 298.00 via Chicago, and they would have to book with me by Friday.
Route numbers or otherwise, the #4 or the N, is the Slow Beach, anyway you look at it. The D Brighton local gets you there faster. The Slow Beach is not even in the same class as the Q, no matter whether Brightliners, Slants, or R68/As are running on it.
Thanks for all the support I received from all of you guys out there. I really appreciated it. I'm being sarcastic. No Sea Beach people came to my aid. Tsk tsk tsk.
Fred, to paraphrase the old joke, "The seabeach is better than the West End".
Well I guess it's some consolation.
"No Sea Beach people came to my aid. Tsk tsk tsk."
Well Fred................there aren't many !
The Brighton Line Boys:
Bill "Newkirk"
Lou from Brooklyn
Paul Matus
heypaul
DougBMTman
ScottinSF
#1BrightonExpBob
Q Brightliner
Jorge Q 6th Ave
others not mentioned
When this gang gets together, they don't ride motorcycles and rumble with chains and baseball bats. They arm themselves with cameras and are seen at any local Brighton station shooting R-40 slants zooming by on the express track. Next week they will invade foreign turf and ride the Sea Beach from Stillwell to Times square and fight to stay awake !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Wish i can make it,
Well if they would put that off until Saturday March 31 when I'm in town, I guarantee you with me aboard they'd have no trouble staying awake. Maybe some of you guys will be around then and I can railfan with a couple of you. OK, I'll also ride the Brighton.
Wow: What a plan. I'd rather have you on my side Dude, but considering your bias towards the Brighton I'll overlook it. But having Doug in my corner? You think he'd go for that? I don't know. How about instead of a wrestling match, a kick boxing match? That would be more exciting. I saw one on Walker-Texas Ranger last night and it was cool. Dude, you're one cool speciman.
ROTFLMAO You really outdid yourself, Steve. You da man!
How about a tug-of-war? You'd need a couple of cheering sections regardless of the type of contest, yelling "Brighton!" and "Sea Beach!" back and forth.
Or a pie-eating contest?
Or a White Castle burger-eating contest?:-)
>>>Re: Seabeach vs Brighton - which one is best.<<<
AHH, they both SUCK. The CULVER RULES!
Peace,
ANDEE
The Culver, it is local all the way no express service anywhere
That's not true. There is occasionally peak direction express service from Kings Hwy.
Bob: Consider the source.
I do and did
From 1985 - 1994 I worked out of Jamaica - the F line
From 1994 - 1996 I worked out of the Concourse - the D line
From 1996 - 1997 I worked out of jamaica - the F line
From 1997 - 1998 I worked out of the Concourse - the D line
From 1998 - 1999 I worked out of Jamaica - The F line
From 1999 - the present I work out of the Concourse, the D line
Next year I may have to agree with you but for now the D rules.
Culver line is the line Salaam hates. No railfan window, no justice.
Chaohwa
No railfan window? Well then, it just cannot rate. How can you have a subway train worth its salt without a railfan window. That's ridiculous.
That's one of a few things that make the R44 and R46 undesirable in my opinion. The huge, ugly, grey exterior and the digital LCD side signs also contribute.
:-) Andrew
They have the best looking interior and (with the R-68) the best seat layout.
Those things are important. While external appearance is important (the R-68A is king of that), I don't give a flying f--- about a railfan window.
"How can you have a subway train worth its salt without a railfan window?"
Sounds like Fred is practicing "Salaamism".
By my count the latest Subtalk poll shows:
West End: 2
Culver: 1
Sea Beach: 2
Brighton: everybody else
Of course, there will most likely be a recount, chads included.:-)
Well I'm surprised I got two votes. Who backed me up? Wow. That was a surprise. Hey, I'm no longer alone.
They just feel sorry for you, all alone in Arcadia no subway for 20 miles
I think it was that Astoria guy with the double-lettered routes like QB/TT or something.
No, I figured he was a West End fan. Someone else who posts from time to time has expressed an affinity for the Sea Beach.
As I said, recounts are a sure bet.
Hey Steve:
Who was that culver supporter? (I guess me, but i think this was taken before my whole 'Culver is best' rant.)
They do not have White Castle in LA, I could go for a In and Out Burger though
"In and out" eh? Sure says "fast food" to me ... you mean they don't even have White Castle in the white box in the supermarkets out there? Those individually wrapped pucks are nothing like chowing down in an actual White Castle, but at least you can get them in most areas of the country - they're in all the stores up here ...
They have them Frozen In LA, they even have them in Hawaii and Hong Kong
Then they DO have them in LA then ... my comment was based on the phrase, "They do not have White Castle in LA, I could go for a In and Out Burger though"
So now the question for us here on the right coast would be, what is the old "in and out?" and does it qualify as "fast" food like a good sack of White Castles can be counted on? Inquiring mimes knead to no ya know ... :)
>>> what is the old "in and out?" and does it qualify as "fast" food <<<
In N Out Burger is a privately owned West Coast very limited menu chain. They don't have much, but what they have is tasty. Here are the official and unofficial websites.
You frequently see their bumper stickers which say "In N Out" centered on the first line over "BurgeR" on the second line, with the ends trimmed so the "B" and "R" on the second line are missing.
Tom
Got it ... checked out the sites ... well, ya see ... in Noo Yawk City, there's White Castle (and there used to be a knockoff called "White TOWER" as well) ... both specialized in "fast food" (which meant it ripped through you real fast like an A train on CPW) ... you'd grab a sackful of the burgers (real masochists would actually "eat in" and then try to waddle home in time) ... our burgers would really clean your clock if you didn't have an iron stomach. That's how we could easily spot out of towners since you eventually became immune to them. :)
>>> Noo Yawk City, there's White Castle <<<
I remember the White Castles with their 15 cent hamburgers that I could not stand when I was in New York. I can't imagine why anyone would want to buy their frozen hamburgers in supermarkets.
Tom
Heh. Sometimes when you gotta go and you can't, ain't nothing like those mystery onions in the "holy burger" to make things alright without the "gentle relief only Metamucil provides." And say what you will about those things, a Saturday night out just wasn't the same without grabbing a sack. Sure they were awful, but a bag of ten was priced just right and your face was stuffed. Sometimes, that's everything. Be grateful you never ate at a Wetsons or a "Goody's" Now THAT was awful ...
White Castles are great. Of course, I don't eat them all that often (who does?), and I never got more than five. Getting ten requires a bit too strong of a constitution. When I used to drive to White Castle and bring it home, maybe I could have taken ten and had direct access to a toilet, but I can't take more than five.
I liked getting the mozzarella sticks and chicken rings, at least until Burger King (WCs are fairly rare, Burger Kings proliferate like weeds) put mozzarella sticks in their 99¢ Great Tastes Menu.
Yeah, bugger kinks are everywhere, even here in the woods ... no WC's at all though, that seems strictly a city thang. Maybe if we can convince our politicians to build us a subway up here, we'll get one. :)
Thanks Old Tom. They buy them and eat them because they are nutritionally stupid. That's crap food. It may taste good but it is no good for you. However, let me be honest. There are times I can really go for a nice bag of French fries. They're no good for you either, but they taste real good and, well, I don;t have complete food discipline.
They buy them and eat them because they are nutritionally stupid.
What the hell does that mean? I know exactly what's in that food. I even know that nutritional calories are really kilocalories.
But I don't care. I'm not going to live my life eating salad.
But I don't care. I'm not going to live my life eating salad.
If you did, you wouldn't be the Other White Meat, you be a rabbit.
"Turtle shurtel, I'm the Rabbit!!!"
I like that analogy to the A train. Of course, they ripped along CPW in the good old days.
I had one White Castle burger in Chicago as a kid. Nothing happened.
White Castle had a twin in thelate 60s in Miami called Royalm Castle, At least they had fresh squeezed OJ there
Be grateful ... heh. Seriously, they weren't bad at all ... tiny little suckers, that's why you bought them by the bag. And no, the ones done up in the frozen food section ain't the same as fresh off the grill ... I'd do the one on Fordham Road regularly.
Believe or not the worse Hamburger I ever had was in a Major Railroad Staion. You would never guess. HAMBURG GERMANY, they even grilled the lettuce. The worse one in the USA was 20 years ago in Woolworth in Keene NH, I found out later nit was a HAMburger
The frozen ones (with onions and either and without cheese) are fairly common nowadays in supermarkets all across the country, though in some areas people probably have no idea there's actually a White Castle fast food restaurant chain.
Hamburgers????? Yuk! They are no good for you. Bad food. Full of caqlories and fat. It's bad enough that as you get older it is harder to stay in shape and keep your weight down. Do you have to make it worse by eating that crap? How about a nice piece of broiled halibut or chicken breast? That is real good food. Of course, there is always Pasta. But since I run I can eat it if I don't over indulge.
Fish and chicken with pasta. That is great. Much better than that greasy burger crap with all the dripping oil.
Beware - most burgers are lower in bad fat than the chicken from Boston Market with the salad ... what doesn't kill ya only makes ya stronger ...
Check out the nutritional info on the boston market frozen foods at the supermarket. Creamed Spinach, for example, has 4 X the calories from fat as Birds Eye has. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?
Must be me - at 50, I'm determined to go out with a smile on my face and thus I always make sure to get my minimum adult daily requirement of vitamin F and vitamin S (fat and sugar) ... when you live out in the sticks and don't have to live in the rat race, why you can even smoke cigarettes and still run like a 20 year old. Well, maybe not everybody but life's a whole lot healthier where there's some oxygen. :)
Most of the local dairy farmers prefer their moomeat wet and greasy too.
I don't think Popeye cared.:-)
He ate it right out of the can
How about a contest-worthy Nathan's face-stuffing? Whoever loses has to empty the stand. :)
Or a White Castle burger-eating contest?:-)
I've been sittin' on the toilet, all the livelong day!
Can't you hear the wind a-breakin'?:-)
There they sit broken hearted, came to shit but only farted.
Is Fred talking about Georgie W Again?
No Bob, I'm talking about your lady Hillary.
She ain t my Lady I like the 2 Lady Senators from Calif Boxer and Feinstein. Yuk can you imagine ARNOLD running for Gov in Calif. Hope he takes diction lessons, he talks like he has marbles in his mouth
Now don't fall off your seat Bob, but I will vote for my first Democrat since 1986 when Davis runs for re-election next year. What he has done for teachers is astounding. Hell my retirement package has been upped by about eight thousand dollars a year. That's a lot of cabbage. I will be a Republican for Davis next year. You have to pay back that kind of generosity. Besides, I do like Davis. I think he has been a good governor.
No White Castle burger eating contest please. Poor BMT Doug is stopped enough with that marbled fat red meat. Let's get him well and not have to worry about others getting goofed up with that rotten food.
thanks for the storm door !!!!... when will you send it ?? much appreciated !!
Once we have the wrestling match between Fred and Bob and raise money for the shipping.
TD, you forgot to tell Salaam that the storm-door will come with a certificate of authenticity from heypaul.
BMTmon (just using a little Jamaician accent on my handle, mon)
Not only the certificate but I'll also send salaam a key so he can lock and unlock his door PLUS it will also have authentic railfan drool stains on the storm door glass.
How much would you NOW expect to pay? But don't answer yet, for a limited time only, we'll also throw in the fabulous Low_V WIND CHIMES!
What, a Scratchitti-free door? I suppose Salaam is getting a pre-rebuild storm-door?
BMTman
Actually, it will be a freshly shopped storm door from the first Redbird that gets scrapped. (the fish don't need storm doors)
It will be sent to Shore Line, Seashore and IRM for that railfan drool, then Fed-ex'd to Salaam.
Yeah, now you're talking! There's nothing like the drool of a railfan!
-Stef
"By your reasoning, the 14th Street-Canarsie Line (modern day L) was the greatest train of all, sixteen times better than the Brighton and four times better than the Sea Beach."
You must be joking........................are you ?
Bill "Newkirk"
John: Sea Beach Fred writing here from California. I have an entirely different impression of Mexicans. My gardener is Mexican, my barber is Mexican, my doctor is Mexican, my first friend I made in California is Mexican, my favorite baseball coach I ever played for is Mexican, the person who the most for me during the unhappiest year of my life in 1958 is Mexican, my best pitcher of the Stan Musial Teams is Mexican, the MVP of the last team I coached is Mexican, and, simply put, I consider Mexican-Americans to be my good luck charm. Pay no heed to what that guy said. He was either frustrated, mad, or just slipped and in anger said some stupid things. I know for me that without Mexican-American people in my life it would have been very different for me in a very negative way, and to have matured in California with Mexican-Americans helping to shape my maturity, it would have been intolerable. Hang in there amigo.
You've probably said better things than that, but I wasn't here to see them, so that's the best post I've ever read from you. And that's a compliment by the way.
Yeah, I agree too, RTS, but his concern should really be for the injured party, not the injurer. Peace To All, Thomas ;)
DITTO! I hate racists, man...that guy should pack up his bags and move to Missouri where he can clean up litter on Interstate 55 - I'm sure they'd love him there.
Ole Ole.... Ole... Ole!!
::clap clap::
So it's OK to go and call me B**rd. I'm not a racist and I don't care if you, Thomas, or the other people who dislike me use it or applaued it.
The truth is it's not a disagreement, it's the same teasing garbage I had to put up with in school.
I don't need this type of behavior, and if I were David P. I would close Subtalk so everybody can just cool their flames down.
There are so many flames around here (directed toward me) that it could melt all the snow in upstate NY right now.
You clearly applauded "Ole Ole.... Ole... Ole!!
::clap clap:: " to this nasty inflammatory post
"Dear John: BASTA, Bastard! I thought SubTalk unspoken etiquette was to avoid religion, race, and politics! It is obvious that you
need to be schooled in this,as well as re-educated in certain misconceptions you hold so allow me the "honor". . . "
" and take your stereotyping and racist
hate-mongering elsewhere, like perhaps a good KKK bulletin board. And get a doctor soon for that athlete's mouth you are
undoubtedly by now afflicted with, and get to steppin'. CLASS OVER. >:-( "
All this just for saying the 7 train felt like Mexico. I was half joking. Many other people here have used cultural references in the past, but have not gotten the harsh and cruel treatment from this group.
I don't need this. In fact, I'm not wasting my time here anymore. This group is more interested in flaming me because they think they can get away with it. Well you can't. I'm not a robot, I have feelings and words hurt.
And trying to clear my name in vain just don't pay, since you people just don't believe I have respect for all cultures and NOT A RACIST. I guess Jerry Seinfeld is a racist too. Anyone who makes any statements such as "train to Tijuana" or "slow boat to china" is called a racist.
You people, especially Thomas the Subway Engine need to grow up and lose the attitude.
I've had fun here, and I'm sorry I have to leave. But when talk of trains and rails goes to hatred just because of a few sentances, Something is wrong here. It wasn't racism. It wasn't bigotry. It was a an observation. I don't care if someone is Hipanic, Asian, Black, or white, I care about their conduct and personality.
So that's just about it. On this stormy night I leave you. I will read occasionally but not post here anymore or be involved with anything here. I can only take so much abuse before I throw in the towel, and I have. Use this an example not to endlessly pick on someone for making a small mistake, or they too will leave.
David P. has tolerated more than he should have from most of you, and if I were in his shoes I would've shut things down already.
Well my train is leaving now, I must go. Good luck to all, and may there be peace and harmony to come....
I agree with your post.
Some people here seem to have animosity either previously from this board or from elsewhere, and just need to find a scapegoat to lash out at. Personally, I think some folks here WAY OVERREACTED to one guy's opinions. Geez, if you folks disagree, then just say you disagree! This doesn't need to go ON and ON. For the folks who decide to resort to name calling (i.e. "Jack***", "Interstate 55" etc.) is this really necessary?? Personally I am very disappointed at the behaviors some folks here have.
And then, there's the stupid pointless posts like the one from 1SF9 ("Ole Ole" etc). Most of his posts are pointless and stupid and doesn't really have any intellectual meaning. That's why I try not to read his posts because I know when I do, it will be something IDIOTIC. I hope you're not taking that idiot's words for real.
I try not to use KILLFILE. But right now 1SF9 is my primary candidate for that honor.
THAT really helped the situation. Does that make you any better than the other "Over-ractors" on this site?
John may have posted mainly his complaints about various things, but at least his posts had substance. (1) South Ferry (9) hasn't posted anything useful that wasn't cryptic ever. I would actually be happy to see him go, and I'm not afraid to say that.
Yeah, but it was kind of odd to see someone post about this board's reaction to obvious racial comments, then post a flame themselves. That's my only problem. I don't care much for the Ferry myself either. His love of Redbirds is a thing of hilarity.
My "flame" has NOTHING to do with RACE. I do not have any idea what his race is. Please do not compare my "flaming" to racial issues.
And I'm not overreacting here. I think those guys are overreacting because it's been going on for a couple of days (?). My "flame" is only that one post. I posted that because I was disgusted his silly message made another quit the board. Yes, some of John's views may be derogatory, but it doesn't call for a deluge of bad-mouthing and tauntings to the extent of the past few days. Besides, John's tone in his posts doesn't even come close to as harsh as some of the reactions so why respond that way? That, my friend, is overreacting. And to go ahead and then post a message like "Ole Ole, clap clap" makes me sick. I hope I cleared things up.
I never said your flame had anything to do with race. I stated that I found it funny that you jump all over us for going overboard and flaming John and that we should quit, and then you go and flame someone in the EXACT SAME POST! Get your mind right player.
Dude, to refrain from going any further on this board, I have sent you an email. Perhaps you will finally understand my reasoning once and for all.
That's all I have to say. No more postings on this will be made by me. Have a good night.
That should be "Over-reactors."
You know John, as much as I don't want to see anybody leave, what can I do? You and I both know had you been on a train or bus full of black people acting loud and obnoxious or being rude, you would've described their idiotic and inconsiderate behavior, BUT, you would have not made all of those analogies as you did about Hispanic people or "Mexicans." In fact, I find the word "Mexican" deragotory(sp?). I've had a problem with some of your post before, but I never said anything being the passive person than I am, but in hindsight, I should have.
The point is is that you can't just avoid stepping on black people's toes as sensitive as they are, you have to avoid stepping over everyone's toes because they could be even more fragile. If that means keeping opinions that you know some people may find offensive, so be it. Especially if it has to do with race. Come on, you seem to be a man of intelligence John, you should have known better.
And honestly, if I was in David's shoes, I would've suspened you for the weekend or something like that. YOU caused the uproar with those comments. Whether they were meant to be or not, they were racial and anyone with a brain stem knows that race is a sensitive issue. Did you actually thin that no one would be offeneded by that?!
But if you're going to go, you may go. You should reconsider because eventualy everything dies down. But next time if you do continue to post here, you will think about what you post a tad more carefully.
Best of luck and blessings...
RTS: Well said. You spoke to him like a Dutch uncle and I'm sure John is smart enough to know good advice when he hears it. The uproar will die down with time and he will learn from his error, I'm sure. Most of us have said things on this site that we wish we could take back, but, fortunately, very few racist remarks have made their way on this site. If we all learn from what John has experienced, then we'll all be better people for it. Take care.
>>> In fact, I find the word "Mexican" deragotory <<<
Huh? Mexican is the appropriate term to describe someone from the country named "The United States of Mexico" just south of the United States of America. The overwhelming majority of the Mexicans I have known both here and in Mexico are proud of their country and the title "Mexican."
Tom
Here in California we have a term called Chicano which some Mexican-Americans prefer, but not all. Sergio, the man who coached with me for 12 years, hated that term, yet I knew many who liked it. For some reason the term never made past California. It became popular around 1970 or so and I kind of liked the term, but not being of Mexican origin myself I cater to what term an individual might prefer.
Chicano is a US born Mexican to differient the difference
>>> Here in California we have a term called Chicano which some Mexican-Americans prefer <<<
Chicano is a self identifying term for Americans of Mexican ancestry. It was developed during a period of ethnic pride to replace the word "Cholo" which is a derogatory term used by Mexicans to describe Americans of Mexican ancestry who do not write and speak proper Spanish or English, but communicate with an Americanized barrio Spanish which is a mixture of the two languages.
Tom
Do you also find the words 'American', 'Russian', and 'English' derogatory? Because that's what we call persons from the United States, Russia, and England. Just like people from Mexico are 'Mexicans', people from New York are 'New Yorkers', and people from Tampa are 'Tampons' :)
-Hank
I noly find it derogatory becuase of the things it's associated with; Dirty Mexican, Greay Mexican, Lazy Mexican, Damn Mexicans, etc. etc. I've never heard those terms used in conjunction with Hispanic.
Don't worry...my Irish ancestors put up with the very same word before Irish.....but, it never stopped them from calling themselves Irish...IYKWIM
Peace,
ANDEE
So what's the point here? We've all heard those same comments about each of our nationalities and in some cases religeons. I may be wrong but I don't recall John using those terms. Why don't we all give this a rest already. It seems that it's been beaten to death.
BTW: I won't do to you what you did to me when you called me an illiterate jackass. I won't call attention to your multiple mis-spellings. Peace :)
Ha. Ha. I was at school during that posting and I wasn't supposed to be on the net so I had to a rush job.
Under those circumstances you'll definately find ALT+TAB a very useful key combination, useful when a teacher comes nearby and you need to quickly flip to something else. The other good trick is to resize the task bar in Windows 95/98 so that it is not visible so teachers can't look at it and see what may be running in the background. I've been there, done that...
Also, a good Windows 3.x trick is to take a screen capture of the Program Manager window while its active and save the screen capture as a bitmap file and set it to the background image for the desktop. Then, in the real Program Manager window turn on the option so that it saves the settings on exit. Then move the real Program Manager into the bottom right corner of the desktop so that most of the window is off the screen. Then grab the top left corner of the Program Manager window with the mouse and resize it right into that corner - only the top left pixel of the edge of the border of the Program Manager window will be visible. Then ALT-F4 out of Windows and Program Manger's location will be saved. It will appear in that location when Windows is started next. Only the background image will be visible on the screen. Remember that the background image is set to the Program Manager screen capture...
You can do all that with Windows 95 and 98 too, although it's easier with Windows 2000/ME.
95:
Install System Policy Editor from the Windows CD. Use Find to find the POLEDIT folder. Inside will be two INF files, right click on the correct one (One is policy editor, the other is group policy, you can do both) and select Install.
System Policy Editor is added to Start Menu Programs under Accessories/System Tools. Somewhere there will be an option to hide desktop icons.
Then do what you said above, hide the taskbar as you said. You can use the Windows key or CTRL+ESC to open the start menu. You can also shut down by clicking CTRL+ALT+DEL and clicking Shut Down. It will shut down properly (contrary to what that set of keys suggests).
Of course, you can't do that on a workstation in a library.
98:
Can't install policy editor, so figure out which registry key to fix.
Me/2000:
Right Click on the desktop, and point to Active Desktop
Make sure that Show Web Content is checked, if not, select it. Then go back (if necessary) and select Show Desktop Icons to uncheck it.
And finally: If someone's coming and you need to hide what you're doing, press Windows+M to minimize all windows.
And finally: If someone's coming and you need to hide what you're doing, press Windows+M to minimize all windows.
I prefer to use Windows+D... it toggles between "Restore" and "Minimize". On my Win98 at home here Windows+M simply minimizes.....
Windows+shift+M is undo minimize.
Is policy editor included in Windows 2000? If so, where? At school they disabled in my profile the Run, Find, lock workstation, and most importantly Explorer's File Menu. Not in everyone's profile, just mine, at least for Run and Find. They also hid all drives except my particular section of the U drive (though it's dumb easy to get to the hidden ones, it's nice not to have to type it in).
No, it's features are duplicated in the Microsoft Management Console, making it a superfluous feature.
I'd appreciate all of you guys changing the subject banner to something different so that this dead horse of an issue can finally die. Thanks in advance, Porkster!!!
Cordially, Thomas :-)
I'll be sure to remember it next time.
Yes, I'd appreciate it, and stero is find only if we're discussing audio high-fidelity topics. Thanks again. Peace, Thomas :-)
On that note, I found that the PA system in most of the Buffalo Metrorail cars that I rode on on Friday badly distorted the sound of the driver calling the stops with the chopper control's buzzing.
Yes, I'm sure it has something to do with either some kinda feedback or interference or something. -Peace, Thomas :-/
As I've already asked several others posting under this subject heading, I'd very much appreciate you all useing a different one from here on out so that this issue can finally die. I thank you in advance! -Sincerely Thomas :-)
>>> I noly find it derogatory becuase of the things it's associated with; Dirty Mexican, Greay Mexican, Lazy Mexican, Damn Mexicans, <<<
Another stereotype hammered into the American popular culture by the movie westerns. If the outside group who could be killed without any qualms of conscience weren't Indians, they were Mexicans.
Tom
Funny, you say Mexican to me, I only think of people from Mexico. If you see all those other things in the description of a nationality, you've got some serious personal issues.
-Hank
God, stop being such an ass! Do you live in Texas?! Do you know anything about what goes on down in this boring ass state?! NO!
Those derogatory words are what I hear in conjunction with the term "Mexican." I don't know what the hell your rude ass hears up there in NYC!
You my friend have serious personal issues! Are you such a weak person in real life that you must get on a Subway Related Message Board and try to impose an air of superiority you do not possess!? Are you that much of sad human being!? Does this make your life well meaning!? If it does then you need to get your mind right player.
>>> I've never heard those terms used in conjunction with Hispanic. <<<
That's because the same people who use those terms tend to abbreviate the word "Hispanic."
Tom
I'd appreciate you posting under a different subject heading so that this matter can finally die a long overdue death.
Sincerely, Thomas :-)
>>> I'd appreciate you posting under a different subject heading
Why didn't you change the heading when you made the request?
Tom
hank ! do not go to atlanta & tell them you are from new york !! THEY WILL CALL YOU A
"""""""" YANKEE """""""" in a hot NEW YORK minute !!! ( peace )
I'd very much appreciate it if you'd post under a different subject heading banner, so that this issue can finally die and we can all move on. Peace, Thomas :-)
John: Please do not dis on 1SF9 or myself if you disagree with our disagreeing with your post- Have you not seen the umpteen posts I've left on this board where I basically apologize to anyone even to include you who may feel I went a bit overboard in my retalli-um, er- response? The true spirit of SubTalk is one of INCLUSION and not EXCLUSION!!!! I believe very firmly in freedom of speech, but within certain mutually agreeable limits, such as not shouting "FIRE" in a crowded theatre or posting obviously xenophobic or stereotypical posts. . .
I SPECIFICALLY REQUEST THAT YOU DO NOT LEAVE THIS BOARD, ONLT THAT YOU PLEEEZE SCRUTINIZE YOUR SUBMISSIONS FOR POSSIBLE RACE AND CLASS SENSITIVITY. I am affording you the very same forgiveness and acceptance that I would want had I been the one to piss off who knows how many differnt people. Not unlike Gore in his concession speech, I really can't stress UNITY AND ACCEPTANCE enough, as I've said in previous posts, this BOARD is bigger than any one mere person's ego or hurt feelings!!! Yes, I'm glad and surprised Dave P. has kept it up this long, too!!! And I want to keep it that way, too, so this stupid petty misunderstanding really needs to be shelved for all time.
If I watch you leave, your feelings toward all afftected people will not have changed, probably only been made worse, and my hatred and grief will instead fester and become deep-seeded, which helps no one.
Only love can conquer hate, only enlightenment can conquer ignorance, and only acceptance and tolerance can conquer division and exclusion. So to this end, I formally extend to you an olive branch, in an effort to make you, this board, and I, trully WHOLE AGAIN and a cyber-family once more. I simply cannot and will not carry around the guilt or ill-feelings of knowing I took another fellow man and child of God and drove him away, even if it is only from a bulletin board. But if I were you, I'd definitely cool it for a while and post only low-key non-controversial issues and topics.
To all those other SubTalkers who have e-mailed me privately in concern and support, and posted public fames toward John,I thank you, but feel the time has come for me to squash all this hating and feuding once and for all. To err is human, but to forgive is divine, and it is time to rebuild, learn, and move on INTACT.
-Cordially, Thomas :-)
Well put.
I ::clap clap:: to that.
Terrific Tom. I hope John stays online, too. Maybe everyone learned a valuable lesson here. I think of Subtalk as my extended family, and though I have met only one person face to face, I consider just about all of you my comrades in arms. You have shown great class and courage in your last post and I think it shows just what a great bunch of guys we have here on Subtalk. And John, if you're listening, take the advice given you to heart. You will be a better man for it.
As if you've all never heard that song that
goes "Ole Ole... Ole.. Ole!! ::clap clap::"
I just happened to be listening to that song
while reading Thomas' original debuff to this
topic.. and his words stirred my approval.
So, the ::clap clap:: was legit from raza to raza.
John, on the other hand, we're talking the same
SubTALKer who posts "bi-daily" "Subway Troubles"
about "this bad car" and "this wet seat" and about
"2 floors are carpeted in the Westchester Mall"
and this "bad patron pushing by him on the 7"..
..same disgruntled growls, different day.. it gets
OLD......and he sought OUR sympathy over the
Xmas Holidaze?!!?
Cast the NYC Subways in a "positive" light.. leave
your (personal) baggage at the turnstile, Jack.
I think the particularly irritating passage was the reference to it smelling like tacos.
-Hank
"I think the particularly irritating passage was the reference to it smelling like tacos."
Hank, I guess that was more of an irritating statement that it appeared to me. I told my wife that the dog's feet smelled like tacos and she started screaming at me.
Steve
It's a shame that it's come to this. Subtalkers are such a diverse group that there are bound to be disagreements and differences in opinon.
We might post something that could be conceived as inflammatory or offensive in the heat of the moment, and that might be regretted as soon as the POST MESSAGE button is clicked- I certainly have- but we've been drawn to this board out of a common interest. Most of the arguing here is basically good-natured, although this latest thread about racism and ethnic stereotyping is getting kind of old.
I've met John a couple of times on Subtalk trips. He seems basically like a nice guy who's been subjected to an extremely large amount of hard knocks. This site seems to have been a good outlet for him. Yes, some of his posts may be repetitive, but I've been just as guilty. We all have our pet peeves, theories and themes that might be run into the ground.
Dave's been remarkably patient and tolerant of a lot of what's been going on lately. We should all be careful if we don't want to lose this valuable resource.
Agreed Howard, and it's about time to put this to rest once and for all. I will not comment on this particular subject again. Can a few of us second this motion? Please, let's move on.
move on
You've got my vote.
Thank you Steve. I need all the backup and support I can get. As you could plainly read, I was very much outnumbered. But it's quality that counts, not quantity. Right?
I don't know what made you post your message, but you have certainly succeeded in displaying a lot of ignorance and insensitivity. I suggest you read all the replies carefully, consider what happened, and then consider writing an apology and posting it here. Then, move on to other subjects.
>>> Thomas, I learned a long time ago not to use gunpowder when flee powder will do. <<<
I'll second that! Thomas's response far exceeded what was necessary for John's stupid comments.
John's bigoted stereotypes of Mexican or Hispanic people is hardly at the level of what Hitler tried to do in Europe, and does not even rise to the level that was reached by the California voters who approved the anti-immigrant Proposition 187 a few years ago.
I question whether Thomas's righteous indignation applies to all bigots or just those prejudiced against Mexicans. Has he tried to get any TA employees fired who made derogatory comments (including jokes) about Jews, Blacks, Italians, Chinese, Japanese, Arabs. or Whites? If so, he has probably had a significant effect on the turnover rate at the TA.
The idea that he would use his political influence in the TA to try to have an employee fired because of his personal dislike of what he said is repugnant to me.
Tom
The previous message is out of place and should be in response to this post .
Tom
Points well taken, please know that I consider racism and intolerance to be unacceptable regardless of who the particular targets. I apologize to all who may think I used a blowtorch to heat up a baby bottle. I was acting out righteous indignation at the time as I still am now, but have my temper and mouth firmly under control, at least until the next malcontent comes along bitching about some stupid percieved ethnic group dilemma. And no, I'd never use any influence I had at any place for personal gain save maybe for getting myself hired on in some cushy $50K/yr. job!!! (J.K.) I'm very sensitive and wound easily, something I just don't think I need to apologize for or excuse. It certainly doesn't help things either I've already had to put up with this very same kind of @#*! for all of my 30 years in NYC and JC. Eventually any boiler reaches explosion pressure.
The tunover rate and stress leevl at MTA is probably already high enough without the added stress of having some politically oriented hatchet vendetta job being focused on someone, so no SubTalker EVER has to worry about one originating from me. Honestly, had I known my response wouldve caused this much discord and debate on this board, I think I would've just as soon suffered in silence and never posted.
"CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALL ALONG"? -Peace, Thomas:)
¡Dios mio, no puedo creer que alguien como Ud. queda en Nueva York!
wow ! i cannot believe how LONG this series of threads is starting with this post !! I am still looking for some shots of the
Mexico City Mexico ( subway-cars ) & how they look the Los Angeles RED LINE subway cars are soooooo.... dull & boring !!!
Geeeeeeeezzzzzz!!!
Love that # 7 flushing line !! its the BOMB !! ......the #2 is my next choice !!! ( all redbirds ) !!!!!!!!
Howdy! Missed ya! I was afraid you had gone away as well ... sure hope you got to enjoy some of the ball-busting we've been doing on ya throughout the others about somehow shipping a redbird storm door off to you under many a feeble excuse. :)
my sincere thanks for the redbird storm door ( hopefully a transplanted r 21-22 ) on a good old redbird!
sometimes i hear you see them on the # 5 line / dyre avenue. my entire transit video collection to those who do this as well. ! ( send me that door )
I have been busy shooting videos of this marching drum section i work with out here &
Before this drifts too far " off topic " you can see my site under { jmada1970@yahoo.com}.. go to my drum & bugle corps. section JMADA etc..
{ http://photos.yahoo.com/jmada1970 }
my electric transit photos are still on
{http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications }
I have been checking out the site to give my thanks to webmaster Mr. David Pirmann of which again & again I wish to THANK HIM 100% !! & thank those of you who enjoy the rail transit videos & I have recieved a lot of orders & good reviews & I thank you good folks for that!
Also I have joined the rail transit co. building the PASADENA BLUE LINE & the other organization called BLAG ( no blue line at grade in pasadena ca. ) when there is some time left then we march off to meetings etc.. continue to finish building the long beach 710 freeway extension & i run a yahoo club under that name as well !
guess when you are BUSY you dont have a lot of time to sit at your computer and do a lot of posting on Subtalk, but I hope I will not let you down somehow I am still around alive & strong, and still kicking !! ( thanks ) ...SalaamAllah
OK guys, we gotta get this kid a storm door ... I'll help pay for the trucking for it out there. :)
For just the cost of one hot meal, you can help the unfortunate folks in California to get their piece of a subway car and it costs a whole lot less than trucking an entire redbird. Reach deep in your pockets, for only you can help make this dream real. Heh.
I have a friend up in Saratoga who is really big into drum and bugle corps stuff ... I'll send him to your site.
right on ( thanks ) send me a link to my E mail !!!
Love that # 7 flushing line !! its the BOMB !! ......the #2 is my next choice !!! ( all redbirds ) !!!!!!!!
NO! The #2 has R-142s MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
ok wise guy send me some pictures of this Mr Oink !! or e mail me with the url & or pictures
PROVE THAT THE # 2 LINE IS ALL 142 s ALL OF THE TIME !!! ( thats all you have to do ) !!!!
fair enough sir ?????
I didn't say it was all R-142s. I just said it has some R-142s. You said it was all Redbirds. This is untrue.
i guess i am going to have to reccomend to you a nice cold beer !!! you did not post something like the # 2 is all 142s ??
last november when i shot the # 2 day & nignt from flatbush to the end of the line it was ALL REDBIRDS back then !!!
So!! this is march 2001 & now a FEW 142s show up !! All you had to do sir was say that SOME R-142s run on the #2 !!!
after all you live in new york city dont you ??
no salaam your wrong want proff see the post below.
salaam's post
Re: Some subway problems today (202535)
Re: Some subway problems today (202535)
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Re: Some subway problems today
Posted by los angeles rail system (salaamallah) on Wed Mar 7 03:52:35 2001, in response to Some subway problems today, posted by John on Sat Mar 3 21:26:58 2001.
wow ! i cannot believe how LONG this series of threads is starting with this post !! I am still looking for some shots of the
Mexico City Mexico ( subway-cars ) & how they look the Los Angeles RED LINE subway cars are soooooo.... dull & boring !!!
Geeeeeeeezzzzzz!!!
Love that # 7 flushing line !! its the BOMB !! ......the #2 is my next choice !!! ( all redbirds ) !!!!!!!!
Responses
Re: Some subway problems today - SelkirkTMO - Wed Mar 7 04:04:07 2001
Re: Some subway problems today- SelkirkTMO - los angeles rail system (salaamallah) - Wed Mar 7 08:52:28 2001
Re: Some subway problems today- SelkirkTMO - SelkirkTMO - Wed Mar 7 17:48:54 2001
Re: Some subway problems today- SelkirkTMO - los angeles rail system (salaamallah) - Thu Mar 8 00:39:28 2001
Re: Some subway problems today - Pork: The Other White Meat - Wed Mar 7 12:51:49 2001
Re: Some subway problems today PORK THE OTHER WHITE MEAT - los angeles rail system (salaamallah) - Thu Mar 8 08:18:03 2001
Re: Some subway problems today LA RAIL SYSTEM (salaamallah) - Pork: The Other White Meat - Thu Mar 8 20:58:25 2001
Re: Some subway problems today PORK THE OTHER WHITE MEAT... - los angeles rail system (salaamallah) - Fri Mar 9 02:46:18 2001
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pork's post
Re: Some subway problems today (202655)
Re: Some subway problems today (202655)
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Re: Some subway problems today
Posted by Pork: The Other White Meat on Wed Mar 7 12:51:49 2001, in response to Re: Some subway problems today, posted by los angeles rail system (salaamallah) on Wed Mar 7 03:52:35 2001.
Love that # 7 flushing line !! its the BOMB !! ......the #2 is my next choice !!! ( all redbirds ) !!!!!!!!
NO! The #2 has R-142s MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Responses
Re: Some subway problems today PORK THE OTHER WHITE MEAT - los angeles rail system (salaamallah) - Thu Mar 8 08:18:03 2001
Re: Some subway problems today LA RAIL SYSTEM (salaamallah) - Pork: The Other White Meat - Thu Mar 8 20:58:25 2001
Re: Some subway problems today PORK THE OTHER WHITE MEAT... - los angeles rail system (salaamallah) - Fri Mar 9 02:46:18 2001
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salaam's other post
Re: Some subway problems today PORK THE OTHER WHITE MEAT (202974)
Re: Some subway problems today PORK THE OTHER WHITE MEAT (202974)
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Re: Some subway problems today PORK THE OTHER WHITE MEAT
Posted by los angeles rail system (salaamallah) on Thu Mar 8 08:18:03 2001, in response to Re: Some subway problems today, posted by Pork: The Other White Meat on Wed Mar 7 12:51:49 2001.
ok wise guy send me some pictures of this Mr Oink !! or e mail me with the url & or pictures
PROVE THAT THE # 2 LINE IS ALL 142 s ALL OF THE TIME !!! ( thats all you have to do ) !!!!
fair enough sir ?????
Responses
Re: Some subway problems today LA RAIL SYSTEM (salaamallah) - Pork: The Other White Meat - Thu Mar 8 20:58:25 2001
Re: Some subway problems today PORK THE OTHER WHITE MEAT... - los angeles rail system (salaamallah) - Fri Mar 9 02:46:18 2001
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YOU POSTED YOUR PASSWORD!!!!
Yep ... you need to change it ...
opps thanks pork
>>> YOU POSTED YOUR PASSWORD!!!! <<<
It seems like a private e-mail would have been a better way of providing this information. This just alerts the whole board that the password is available.
Tom
It makes it more pressing for him to change it.
And I don't use that password for anything but subtalk any way due to the fact that I can't turn off it being saved and post from shared computers. There is not much harm anyone can due with a subtalk password anyway.
>>> There is not much harm anyone can due with a subtalk password anyway. <<<
Except post inflammatory and salacious material in your name, giving other Sub Talkers an incorrect opinion of the type of person you are.
Tom
Then I can state that it was not and the post will be deleted with hours compared to other sites that I use that is more or less harmless.
There is not much harm anyone can due with a subtalk password anyway.
Actually, back before SubTalk used passwords there were several cases where people posted using someone else's handle... I was not one of the victims but there were several people who had a great deal of trouble from these malicious posts... that's one reason the passwords were implemented.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, with your password, they can change your password into something else so you can't even access the change password page and get it changed. If that happenes, you'll have to wait for Mr. Pirmann to get to you and you'll need some ID.
If you haven't changed your e-mail address since you signed up, you can request the password.
The only way to change the registered e-mail is to contact Dave.
I have the plan describing the following plans WMATA has in the event of a major snowfall. It has the following information:
Definition of the "service levels"
Preparations for getting ready
Where trains will operate
Where icing/scraping will occur
Train Frequencies
Restoration Activites
"Early Out" Service Plan
Identified Problem Areas/Bus Diversions
MetroBus routes serving MetroRail Stations
If you wish to view it, please e-mail me at oren@orenstransitpage.com or post a reply (preferibly e-mail).
Once you have it, in order to know what service level they are operating under, you need to check Metro's website at http://www.wmata.com.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
http://www.orenstransitpage.com
Around 1956 or 1957 when I was living in Brownsville,I recall a work train plunging to the street where the layup track ended on the el structure approaching Sutter Avenue from the tunnel portal.One car fell nose first onto E.98th Street and remained there for a few days.I believe one crewman was killed.I have never seen this accident referred to in print and I wonder if anyone can enlighten me on this.Needless to say it was a bizarre scene to pass on the way to school at PS189.
It probably never got mentioned simply because it was a work train.
There was another very similar one on the Pelham line around Zerega Avenue, about the same time (August 29, 1957). I don't know the exact circumstances, but one train hit another, and a couple R-17's went over the side into the street. The cars involved were 6673 and 6786. They were actually damaged enough to be scrapped!
How was the IRT car assignment between 1982-1991 while the R26,28,29,33ML,33S,36ML,36WF were all being rebuilt?
That's a BIG Question!
The best thing to remember about IRT car assignments in the pre R-62/62A era is 1) they were for the most part brokrn down by type of electrical equipment, and 2) there was no effort to keep the different types of cars separate in train consists.
As a start, let me give you the outline of assignments for January 10, 1983:
#1: WH R-15, WH R-21, WH R-22, WH R-29
#2: GE R-15, WH R-15, GE R-22, GE R-26, GE R-28, GE R-29
#3: GE R-14, WH R-14, WH R-22, WH WF R-36, WH R-36
#4: GE R-17, WH R-17, GE R-21, WH R-21, GE R-33
#5: GE R-21, GE R-22, GE R-33
#6: WH R-17, WH R-26, WH R-28, WH R-29, WH R-33
#7: WH WF R-33, WH WF R-36, GE WF R-36
S: GE R-17
There were many, many changes in subsequent years, far too many to list in one posting. But this should give you an IDEA how things were in the "old days".
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
For what it's worth, the IRT was pretty standardized in "detailed technical specifications" as far as bids went. Wasn't so hard mixing and matching cars compared to the "shotgun wedding" of BMT/IND ... that comment oughta be worth a few points from the southBK crowd here given that I was an IND homey ... But I still want to see someone hook up a 33 and a gate car and get anything beyond whining. :)
If you ever want to enjoy a turdhunt, checkout the variations in car couplers over the years. Given the depth that Webmaster Dave goes through with this WONDERFUL site ... there's an angle nobody's had fun with ... it'd make for "reality teevee" for us old-timers ... "Make the consist" with all original equipment, no adaptors, that'd be cheating. Heh.
Sounds like you might be part of that old splinter group that thought the R-10 might have turned out to be a half decent car if they had used Van Dorn's!
Heh. Ya never know. I'm just surprised that the Coney Island boys never mounted a jet engine on the roof to see how fast they could go. The car shop guys are known for their enjoyment of doing weird things to cars just to see "what if?"
Man, I would have loved to see just how fast an R-10 with a jet engine could go up CPW! Not that they needed much help.:-)
And I'm sure everyone would have been complaining about all the noise it would have made blasting past 81st Street :)
As if those cars didn't make enough noise already.:-)
True, but at likely speeds in excess of 125 MPH, it'd be over in a flash and chances are the wheels would have been above the rails resulting in a quieter blastby ... but that run was the next best thing to having a rocket mounted on top.
Funny though over all those years the continuing (and failed) attempts at noise abatements for the local platforms. I'm actually surprised they didn't consider just putting up cinder block between the pillars at the stations to kill the noise there. An evacuation of a stranded express could still be done since you make the geese walk the plank to the platforms at the ends where the tunnel steps are anyway - a wall wouldn't have precluded an evacuation if it only extended a pillar or two past the ends of the platforms.
Well, the 7 was treated with respect. They had the newest material. Is there a site that leads to past car assignments and changes?
By the time I became a regular rider in late 1985/early 1986, the R21, R22 and R17's were almost all relegated to the #3 and #5 lines. I never had the opportunity to ride R14's or the R15. I absolutley hated these cars, because (unknown to me at the time) they were neglected because they were soon to be scrapped.
The R-12s and R-14s were scaled-down R-10s, basically. Unlike the R-10s, they were much quieter (go figure) and had electric door engines while retaining the exterior trigger boxes. They also never ran in solid trains on the mainlines.
How was the IND/BMT car assignment between 1985-1995 when the R30,32,38,40M,40S,44,46, were being rebuilt?
R-30???
During the early part, 85-89, lots of R-10s. It was their swan song.
Peace,
ANDEE
After the R46's truck problems were fixed (around 1982), the R10 was relegated to the C line almost exclusively.
On the B-Division there have been all kinds of variations and it's even more complicated. Assignments were generally not determined by type of equipment, but there WAS a concerted effort to keep the various types of cars together in one train consist. There are also far fewer maintenance bases than routes, resulting in a lot of fleet sharing. This practice probably continues unchanged, but again for an EXAMPLE, let's examine the car assignments of May 16, 1985:
A (207/Pitkin): R-38, R-44
AA/B (Coney Island/174): R-40, R-42
CC (Concourse/Pitkin/Rock Pk): R-10, R-38
D (Concourse/Coney Island/Brighton Bch): R-32, R-40M/42
E (Jamaica): R-46
F (Jamaica): R-46
GG (Jamaica): R-32
JFK (Jamaica/Howard Bch): R-46
J (E NY): R-16, R-27/30, R-42
LL (E NY, Rockaway Pkwy): R-27/30, R-42
M/QB (Coney Island/Metro Ave): R-27/30, R-42
N (Coney Island/Jamaica): R-32, R-46
RR (36 St./Coney Island): R-27/30, R-32, R-42
SS (Prospect Pk): R-27/30
A few ground rules:
R-27s and R-30s were mixed at random and indiscriminately, being arranged in "semi-permanent" pairs.
R-40Mod and R-42s were mixed in consists on the D line.
At this time the Car Appearance Program was in its beginning stages, so certain cars were in the process of being broken out of the general fleet to be "clean" while car cleaners were phased in at various terminals. As such, there were by this time several trains of "Green" R-10s running on the CC, and there was some segmentation with the R-46s: cab cars 500-722 were being used on the E. Also R-46s 1201-1246 (basically) were dedicated to the JFK Express (aka "The Bird").
The B-Division, at least since the Chrystie St. opening in 1967, has been rife with equipment swapping as well, so it has always been possible to find other lines' cars on any given route at any given time. Some exceptions on May 16, 1985:
R-27/30s or R-40M mixed with 42s on the AA/B.
R-27/30s on the D.
R-32s on the J.
R-16s, R-40M/42 or R-32 on the LL.
R-32 or R-40M/42 on the M/QB.
R-27/30 on the N.
Don't know if this muddies or clarifies things.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Just to clarify the earlier posting a little, the locations shown were not all operating carbarns, some lay-up yards are shown as well.
Maintenance bases were 207 Street, Coney Island, Concourse, Jamaica, East New York and Pitkin. The remaining locations (174, Rockaway Park, Brighton Beach, Rockaway Pkwy, Metropolitan Ave., 36th Street, Prospect Park) were lay-up facilities only, though there could be some light corrective work performed if necessary.
In earlier times, trains were also laid up in off-peak hours on various express tracks and anywhere else there was room. This practice was discontinued around 1983.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Again, any website that shows this and more?
The practice of laying up trains on unused center express tracks continued long after 1983. J trains were stored east of Queens Blvd until 4/85 on the remaining tracks that were left east of the old Supthin Blvd. station. The Astoria express track stored R and B trains almost for it's entire length during the north Manny B closure of 86-88. The middle track at 111th St. is still used today to store J trains.
The practice of express track lay ups continued past 1983. The West End Line laid up R16 and R27 MUs signaled for the "M" line as late as 1988 on the center track.
The cars that were overhauled in the 1980's were not done all at once. It took 8 years to completely overhaul every car from the R30 to the R46.
The first overhauled cars that showed up were the R30 "redbirds" in 1985, on the J. These replaced the R16's, which went to the M. Most of the R32/40/42 cars went through a mini-overhaul in 1987, which basically meant that the grafitti was removed and the broken components (lights/doors/signs) were fixed.
The first of what we see today as the totally overhauled (GOH) cars were the R38's on the A, in 1987. I can still remember seeing a set of them pull into 42nd St. in the spring of 1987, and my utter shock at their almost new appearance (I fitst thought they "were" new cars). The GOH R40 slants first appeared on the B line in September 1987, the GOH R32's first appearing on the R in October of the same year. The GOH R42 first appeared on the J in March of 1988.
The first 10 car MU set of slant R40s from Sumitomo was in 12/87. I was at the ceremony at Whitehall Street BMT with David L. Gunn.
One point of note is that the slant R-40's were dispersed around the southern div at this time, appearing on the and eventually and .
Since he asked for 1985-1995, I can bring it up to then.
Shortly afterwards, the 6 Av. side of the bridge closed, and the R-68's started coming in. The BMT Southern kept the 32's and slant 40's, (which began being rebuilt) while the IND and the BMT eastern Div. kept the 40m/42's. The Concourse yard also kept 3 R-32 trains for some reason. 30's were on both BMT and the 6th Av. (and later spread to the )
When the 68's came in they went to the and eventually and (when it switched north terminals and yard assignments/equipment with the )
The 16's were retired. The first R-68A went into service on the to 34th.
When the bridge switched sides into the present arrangement, the 42's returned to the BMT southern briefly until they went out to be rebuilt, and then returned completely to the eastern div. The got all 200 68A's, and the lowest 68's and the was eventually all 68's, as the remaining 32's were pushed off the Brighton. The had all the rebuilt R-40's, but some would appear on the and
Eventually, the 10's and 30's were retired, and 32's, now rebuilt also, went to the and a group of slant 40's to the . Somewhere along the line, 46's filled the and, and the 32's on those lines went to the . During all this time, the Franklin shuttle had gotten 32's, then the 2 car R-68 arrangement.
This is the way it was until 1995, when the 68A's were pulled off the, which became all 68's, and bounced around between the and
I just checked the MTA website. Since the plans are all set, you'd think the MTA would have all kinds of information sitting offline, then get it up on the website when trouble looms. Nothing there.
That picture on the home page should be replaced with a winter emergency statement. You should be able to find out what will be running under the current forecast conditions, and other advisories.
Look for something somewhere after 12 noon today ... Rudy gets a bit cranky when agencies upstage him ... just look at the tantrum he threw when the Pork Authority dared to dis the boy by plowing their own territory before submitting to his majesty for further instructions. :)
Winter operations plan for the NYCT Dept. of Subways is about 200 pages of text. Most of it is 'zone specific', indicating what trains lay up where and what crews report to them. About 50 - 60 pages do contain the actual storm fighting plan including the deployment of trains with scraper shoes, de-icer cars, rail polisher trains and jet snow blowers. It also describes the establishment & manning of the emergency command center. Most of the plan would be of little interest to railfans and the PDF file that would contain the plan would be enormous. Those who are directly concerned with the 'Cold Weather plan have hard copies on their desks - relevent sections are highlighted.
WMATA put theirs on line during the last storm and I have it. While the actual plan is probably longer, the one I have is 35 pages (but the last 15 are virtually meaningless to me).
E-mail me if you want me to send it to you.
Winter operations plan for the NYCT Dept. of Subways is about 200 pages of text. Most of it is 'zone specific', indicating what trains lay up where and what crews report to them. About 50 - 60 pages do contain the actual storm fighting plan including the deployment of trains with scraper shoes, de-icer cars, rail polisher trains and jet snow blowers. It also describes the establishment & manning of the emergency command center. Most of the plan would be of little interest to railfans and the PDF file that would contain the plan would be enormous. Those who are directly concerned with the 'Cold Weather plan have hard copies on their desks - relevent sections are highlighted.
Posting the actual plan would be overkill, but what about a short statement assuring the public that there IS a snow emergency plan?
Like someone for example who commutes from Flushing to Sunset Park, Brooklyn for example. How do they find out the 7 and N trains are running? I know I'd be annoyed if I had to walk 10 blocks in the snow to Main street and find out there's no train and head back.
Usually, when an entire line goes down, radio stations are informed quickly and get the word out.
So far newsradio has failed to inform me of subway disruptions when I've experienced them. Since this is a major storm hopefully they're coverage will be more accurate.
THERE IS A COLD WEATHER PLAN
PLAN IV IS IN EFFECT
For those who really need to know: Hang out by a CR or TO at 1100 and listen to their radio. This is the time that Control Center announces what plan will be ineffect for the following day.
(Winter operations plan for the NYCT Dept. of Subways is about 200 pages of text. Most of it is 'zone specific', indicating what trains lay up where and what crews report to them. About 50 - 60 pages do contain the actual storm fighting plan including the deployment of trains with scraper shoes, de-icer cars, rail polisher trains and jet snow blowers.)
That's the plan for keeping all trains running on a regular schedule. All I want to know is if the "F" will be running normally, will be a shuttle between Church and 4th Avenue, or will not be running at all.
THAT is the sort of information I want to see posted. Revised subway and bus schedules. The Brooklyn and Queens Catholic Schools have already cancelled for Monday and Tuesday. The Westchester Buses will shut down. Nothing yet from the TA on the radio, and in 1996 I heard nothing during the entire situation. If Newsradio88 is to blame, I'd at least like to be able to find out on the website.
Whether any 'outdoor' line operates will be dependent on the severity of the storm. I'd say that of the 5 major B division lines in Brooklyn (excluding the A/C lines), the F is most likely to remain in operation, second only to the R.
Snow emergency plan or real-time emergency updates aside... when is the MTA website going to:
1) mention the summer service changes; i.e. post a copy of or summarize the V and Q/W printed brochures?
2) have an updated map that acknowledges the presence of trains under 41 Ave between 21 St and Queens Plaza?
the much delayed spring all boro bike ride will begin tonight in front of my apartment house in sheepshead bay... at 10pm, i will distribute a waterproof copy of the itinerary to all participants... here is a general outline... from sheepshead bay, head into brighton beach, ride the boardwalk to seagate, ride back on mermaid ave to prove that coney island is safe, head back to sheepshead bay and pick up the belt parkway bike path at knapp street to flatbush ave, head south to the marine parkway bridge, wait a couple of hours for a van to take you over the bridge, head west to breezy point, return to 116th street where any surviving members of the group will decide what to do next...
again the meeting time is 10pm in front of my apartment house... at 10:15, the latest, i will give all the hardy souls taking the ride my best wishes for a safe trip, after which i will retire to my warm apartment, where i will laugh myself to sleep....
I'll be there....NOT
lol
Peace,
ANDEE
I was about to sign.......... till I realized
heypaul would not be a participant... which
defeated the purchase price of a ticket.
LOL
Do they still plow the bike paths on the Belt?
LOL.
Paul, why didn't you hold the trip YESTERDAY?!?!
I did 14.4 miles yesterday (with most of the trip home being UPHILL).
I propose the spring all boro bike ride be cancelled and we hold a R142 bashing at the Pelham and 239th Street Yards. We will peg snowballs at the R142s and R142As until the operator console's controls freeze.
Unfortunately, I can't attend. So I say Paul leads the 239th group and someone voluneteers to go to Pelham.
Anyone who hits a Redbird is sent home immediately.
The obvious intended meaning of this post escapes me, but then again I'm new here.
Speaking of bashing the R142's, I saw a set of them in the Flatbush Ave terminal when I walked in around 10:50am this morning, but they were "not in service" and promptly took off.
hey welcome aboard... glad to hear you speak of bashing the 142's... the train you saw was part of the mta's 7 year testing program of the 142's that was started about 6 months ago... it is hoped that in about 7 years they will gather enough information about the cars, so that they can properly rebuild the r110a's... once the r110 set it rebuilt, it will undergo a rigorous testing program of at least 10 years, during which time it is hoped that they will be able to figure out what to do with the current 142's...
I recall heypaul last fall gesturing towards
his bike parked (& quintuple padlocked) to a
tree & telling me he had "ridden his bike
all the way from sheepshead bay...to
Shore Line Trolley Museum in East Haven, CT"
for a moment there... I ACTUALLY BELIEVED HIM!!
carlos... i rode it all the way from the metronorth station in new haven...
hey guys, in another couple of minutes, bmtman will be heading for the boardwalk alone, as no one else has showed up for the bike ride tonight... i was hoping there would be at least one or two other people to ride with them... if i had any compassion for him, i would go along... however my total self absorption prevents me from doing that...
Biking up to Shore Line is nothing... I have an ex-girlfriend who does the AIDS Ride from Boston to New York. Of course, I personally haven't touched a bicycle in a decade or two...
Are you sure BMTman was headed for the Boardwalk? If he's left unsupervised, he's probably gravitating toward Franklin Avenue...
Even Worst.
Might have ended up at Flatbush Ave Subway Station. And I think BMTman might just take the 2 Train to Fulton St then take the A Train to Broad Channel then take the Rockaway Park Shuttle to B 116ST. To just cheat the Bike tour.
Dominick Bermudez.
Hey, stop giving me ideas.
:-)
I turned back when a mini-tidal wave almost threw me off the bike...;-)
It was all heypaul's idea in the first place.
BMTman
Is there a track connection between the two branches of the Red Line? (In other words, can a train from Wilshire/Western operate directly to North Hollywood without changing directions at Wilshire/Vermont?)
No. It is simply diverging route just west of the Vermont Avenue station. No third leg of the wye there. Never will be either because of the buildings in the area.
The 7:05 to Penn Station
(c) 2001 Mike Brotzman
Please Comment and Enjoy
Fred Jensen had achieved the perfect life. When he was a kid he had studied hard in school, was accepted to and worked his way through a top liberal arts college and then went to work for a large Fortune 500 company as something little better than an intern. The work was hard and the pay was low, but he made the right moves and kissed the right asses so by the time he was 29 he was well on his way up the corporate ladder. By the time he was 33 had moved out of his two room, forth floor walkup apartment in Brooklyn, married the girl of dreams and taken up residence in the picturesque Long Island suburb of Selden. Now he was 39, he had 2 wonderful kids, a dog, a Lincoln sedan and big Ford SUV, a grass covered back yard complete with a pool and everyday Fred would take the Long Island Rail Road to commute to his job in downtown Manhattan.
Fred loved to take the train. Every morning he would catch the 7:05 train to Penn Station and it would whisk him on a one-seat journey all the way to Midtown. He preferred to catch the train at Ronkonkoma where it originated so that he could find a comfortable and enjoy a one seat ride as the electric cars glided through the green Long Island landscape towards the towering city, Fred would use the down time to review the day's work, read the "Times" or just catch up on some much needed sleep.
The day downed much like any typical Tuesday would. Fred got up and hurried about his early morning activities. Everything in Fred's life was scheduled down to the minute and there would be hell to pay if he was ever forced to deviate from his self-assigned list of tasks. Fred didn't feel like he had become a robot or that he had a rod up his ass. Careful planning and timing was just being smart. If he arrived at the train station too late all the good parking spaces would be filled by all the other commuters who couldn't go without a one-seat ride. If he missed his parking spot he'd have to walk farther, then he might miss the train, then he might have to push back meetings, then he might miss lunch, then he might miss his train home and finally he'd miss out on some much loved quality time with the kids and wife.
Today Fred was on time and he got his usual parking spot. He caught the train as it stood at the platform C and took his "assigned" window seat in the last car. Fred wasn't the only person on Long Island with a routine. Every day the same people would catch the same train and take the same seats. They never talked or spoke to each other, they never made eye contact and they always made sure never to notice what any other passenger was doing. Even if a passenger were crammed in the middle of a three seater, he would wrap his newspaper around his head like a protective shell and achieve utter indifference.
As the train rocketed through Mineola, Fred saw a strange movement in the reflection on the window. Fighting his urge just to ignore it, Fred put down his newspaper and looked across the car. There, perched on the little rack for carry on luggage and small parcels was a pigeon. Fred stared at it for a moment wondering how on Earth it had managed to get on the train and for that matter, why? This would definitely require him to write a letter of complaint to the MTA. Pigeons were unsanitary vermin and had no place on a commuter train. Sure he would expect this kind of filth on the Subway, and he seen many pigeons on subway trains when he had resided in the city, but now he lived in Long Island, things were supposed to be better. Forgetting about the bird Fred began to wonder why he had paid so much money for his new house, why the Rangers were tanking and why the PA had to raise bridge tolls.
Fred was only brought back to reality when he noticed that his train was pulling into track 18 at Penn Station on time at 8:19. Making sure to avoid eye contact he gathered his things and waited as the mob of people pushed slowly towards the exit. Being one of the last people out as he happened to turn back for a second he saw that same pigeon fly out of the train and off somewhere into the cavernous depth of Penn Station. This struck Fred as mildly amusing and he filed the incident under "Anecdotes to Tell Co-Workers at Lunch".
Fifteen minutes later Fred was flabbergasted again when a saw a mouse boarding his (2) train just after he had gotten on at 34th St. He wondered if this was like "Try Transit" day or something. He tried to decide if animals using public transportation was a good thing, but reached the conclusion that it probably wasn't because they didn't have to pay a fare, thus forcing the cost burden to human riders like himself. Oh, and then of course there was the whole public health issue.
Fred was not very surprised when he saw the mouse get off at Chambers St. He secretly hoped the mouse was transferring to a (1) or (9) to South Ferry so it could then jump into the Hudson or at least take the ferry to Staten Island. A few minutes later Fred was walking out of the Wall St. station, now armed with two funny anecdotes to tell his co-workers.
The workday passed quickly, his co-workers laughed at both of his stories, his subway ride back to Penn Station was rodent free and he caught his 5:22 train to Ronkonkoma and best of all it arrived on time. He arrived home to a nice hot meal, retold his stories to his family, played Quake with the kids over his household LAN, but was surprised when he found he barely had the energy to watch NYPD Blue with his wife. His average day must have taken more out of him than he thought. He kissed his lovely wife goodnight and turned in early.
Fred awoke the next morning still groggy and tired, but he was startled wide-awake when he discovered he had lost another 10 pounds over the course of the week. Fred was very impressed with how well his new diet was working. At this rate he figured he'd be able to start eating all his favourite foods again by the next Friday. The next discovery didn't go over quite as well. As Fred began to shave he noticed that his hair was beginning to take on a shade gray. It wasn't just the hair on his head, but all over his body. Even more strange were the bits of fuzz he pulled off the back of his neck. They looked a bit like something that would come out of a pillow. Fred made a note in his Palm Pilot to see a dermatologist and then realized that his bodily inspection had made him 3 minutes late. He rushed out of the house and drove to the train station only to find his usual spot taken and the next available option some quarter mile away. Fred would have missed his train had it not been for the fact that he was a pretty quick runner and he was able to jam his hand in the door before the closed all the way. Once aboard he sunk into his window seat and fell asleep, completely exausted.
He awoke to find the conductor poking him with a short yellow stick. Grabbing his things he rushed out of the coach, not wanting to be late for work. Once on the Subway he felt increasingly uncomfortable, he itched all over and he felt rather hot. After he got up to his office Frank dumped his stiff in his office and, passing up an urge to stop it at the water cooler, ran into the bathroom. His face looked rather gray despite the fact he was overheating and upon opening his shirt he found that the odd fuzz was covering his whole chest and though he felt like he was burning up, but there was no sweat anywhere on his body. Suddenly Fred was gripped by an acute pain in his gut and he lurched to the toilet to forcibly expel what had been his breakfast.
As he washed his mouth out in the sink Fred realized that this was obviously something much more serious than a simple skin condition and he was definitely going to have to see his doctor as soon as possible. When Fred got back to his office he put off an important conference call in order to set up a late appointment. Now that his crisis had been sufficiently dealt with Fred dove right back into his work. After all, they had just gotten 5 new accounts and this wasn't the time to be a lazybones.
Two conference calls, five e-mails, three meetings and four reports later Fred pulled himself away from his work. His stomach was angry that it had been so suddenly evacuated and it was demanding that Fred consume the lunch his wonderful wife had packed. As Fred reached for his briefcase to retrieve the lunch, he was shocked to see that his shirtsleeves now flopped down over his hand. He stood up and saw that none of his clothes fit right, they just hung off him like he had just come in from fasting. He found it hard to believe that any diet could be this effective.
Fred needed a drink and as he walked to the water cooler several co-workers noticed his rumpled appearance and gray complexion and suggested that he take the rest of the day off sick. Fred had never taken a sick day and he didn't feel like starting now. He filled his mug with cool, refreshing water and steadfastly walked back to his office. It was only after he his rolled up his sleeve for the umpteenth time that he noticed what was not growing on his forearm. He clenched his teeth and pulled, that had been just gray fuzz, out of his arm and held it up to the light. There was no mistaking it; in his hand was most definitely a small gray feather. He bent over the pulled up his pant leg and there he found not gray fuzz, but hard black and pink scales.
Model employee, hard worker, 5 new accounts or not this sent Fred into a panic. He grabbed his stuff, held his calls and canceled his remaining appointments. Three minutes later he was out the door and heading toward the subway station. It was just past three o'clock and things weren't very crowded yet, but as he ran down the stairway one of his shoes came off. As Fred fumbled to get it back on he saw three little claws poking out of his socks. Fred, his shoes not much better than slippers now, swiped his MetroCard and ran to catch the big red train that had just pulled into the station. He got on and plopped down on one of the hard bench seats hoping that nobody would notice him. Since New Yorkers generally couldn't care less about their fellow man, the only people who did see him were two children who had just gotten off from school. One look was all it took to persuade them to move to another car.
Fred staggered into Penn Station and almost fell down the stairs to the LIRR level. He was in luck, the 3:55 train to Ronkonkoma left in just a few minutes. Holding onto the handrail for dear life he fumbled down to the platform and into the train, falling headlong into his seat. Fred looked so bad that nobody would even sit near him and so he sat alone, face to the window, as wave after wave of pain coursed through his body.
It was right after the station stop at Hicksville that, one again Fred looked up at to the baggage rack in the coach. Once again he beheld a pigeon riding the rails to god knows where. It was in that instant that Fred realized what was happening to him and this realization only accelerated the changes that were already taking place.
Fred began to shrink rapidly. His legs began to suck into his torso and his shoes fell off. He tried to yell, to call for help, but he found himself unable to make any sounds. His arms retreated inside his shirt, his fingers melding into large feathers. His lips receded and his teeth pushed out and fused into a small beak and as he shrank, his body was fully engulfed in gray feathers. As his head shrank it pushed the human thoughts out if his mind, his memories, his personality. Wife, kids, house, car, commute, work all disappeared into nothingness. Finally, a small pigeon poked its head out of what had been Fred's sport jacket. It struggled free itself of the man made confines and winged its way up to the baggage rack. Nobody else in the car gave the slightest hint of noticing. As the pigeon perched on the rack one last bit of awareness passed through it as it saw the 15 or 20 other pigeons huddling in the rack, waiting for their stops. What had been Frank might have wondered where those other birds had come from, but he had lost the ability to wonder.
The announcement came over the PA for Ronkonkoma and the pigeon that had been Fred had a burning desire to get out of the train. Once the path was clear it flapped down and out of the doorway and into the early evening. For all intents and purposes, what came out of that train on that fateful winter evening was a pigeon. It felt it had to do what most other birds do, find something to eat, find a place to roost, find a mate, but it had one burning need that overrode all other concerns. That pigeon just HAD to be on the 7:05 train to Penn Station.
***********************************************************
A homeless, minority, immigrant awoke from his slumber in the last car and began making his way forward, looking for items that might have been left behind. He tried to ride the LIRR, it always provided him with a good haul and he enjoyed bringing down the property values in all the surrounding communities(*). Suddenly he looked down, unable to believe his eyes. For the second time that week someone had left all their things and a complete set of cloths behind on one of the seats. Carefully looking around to make sure the conductor wasn't lurking nearby, the man dumped all the items in his bag, smiling as he pulled the wallet from the still buttoned pants. He quickly left the train and headed towards the nearest bar as he perused the contents of the wallet. Tonite it looked as if a Mister Fred Jensen would be buying the drinks.
***********************************************************
WWW.NYTIMES.COM
METRO SECTION HEADLINES FOR MARCH 1, 2000 10:30PM
Mayor Calls for New Initiative to Deal with Growing Rat and Pigeon Problem.
Police Department Still Without Comment Regarding Rash of Disappearances.
Great story! Needed a good laugh before bed...
That's a VERRY FUNNY stroy you have there. Now only if that person just have a Gun just to shout that Pigeon and that Rat.
I HATE Rats and Pigeons.
Dominick Bermudez.
BRAVO, MORE, BRAVO!
avid
That pigeon just HAD to be on the 7:05 train to Penn Station.
Impossible. Even the most tolerant pigeon couldn't stand the 7:05 from Ronkonkoma to Penn, jammed full with all the suit-covered anuses.
For anyone in the NYC Metro area, New Jersey, and Long Island please update on the current conditions outside through the stormy next 48 hours.
Updates on what subway lines are running, bus lines, etc is also needed.
This storm is gonna be a doozy for the system to handle, especially on above ground lines.
So far it's taking awhile to get things started, with just some very light snow flurry activity so far in "what's a shovel" Sea Cliff.
Get out those R-40 snow plows.
I'm counting on those R-40's to clear out the Q line for me tomorrow morning.
Almost 11pm here in Sea Cliff. There was some sleet and rain earlier but now it's light snow and a coating.
Those el's must look pretty now, but by this time tomorrow it won't be too much fun at all.
Now it's freezing rain as of midnight. The phenomenal "blizzard" that was so hyped on Saturday has not arrived yet. They were scaring me so much Flushing seemed like a nice place to stay during the storm. At least there's stores, a subway, and people around. That's a lot better place to stay than "what's a shovel" Sea Cliff in the middle of a severe blizzard.
Of course I don't have the cash for a stay at the Sheraton there (probably expensive). It sure would've been cool to see the 7 line in the middle of a blizzard. And at least I would've been able to get some chinese food (last time I walked 15 minutes to get some chinese food some village official scalded me for walking in a snowstorm).
Well I can't afford a stay at Sheraton during the blizzard so forget about this fantasy. :-(
But at least it won't pack a severe punch, but things could still get nasty around here later Monday into Tuesday.
>>> Of course I don't have the cash for a stay at the Sheraton there (probably expensive). It sure would've been cool to see the 7 line in the middle of a blizzard <<<
But you could afford to railfan through the night on the #7 train (and others), and possibly get an appreciation of why you see homeless people on the subway. :-)
Tom
As long as the 7 runs. Anyways it is very icy out there now, the road and sidewalks are a sheet of ice. As usual there is no salt or sand on the street here in Sea Cliff. They really do a lousy job with road sanding here.
We've been getting alot of sleet and freezing rain with a biting east wind. It's so slippery out there when I went to put the garbage out I had to hold onto anything I could.
Well time to get some sleep now, I'm afraid what I'll wake up to tomorrow. :-(
Well so far it's been a "dud". It is icy and slushy out there with less than an inch of snow on the ground. Schools are closed, but roads appear OK. We are still getting sleet and freezing rain.
I do plan on attempting to catch the bus to the store to get some things at around noontime.
Once the coastal low really gets going by later today, heavy snow and blizzard conditions should develop. All transit looks fine right about now. Fox 5 was at Hempstead and showed LIRR and LI Bus running properly.
Well, up here in Albany we've already collected 6 of our expected 42 inches ... that's right, they're forecasting 42 inches by tomorrow night around here. And that's on top of the ten or so that was already there from 36 hours of lake effect snow preceding this. Bottom line, ain't seen our lawn since early December.
Don't let the calm before the storm fool ya though, this puppy hasn't even started to wind up yet. The first low is off the DelMarVa now, the power center low is now moving across the great lakes and the wind has already started to turn up here. Let's see how wimpy this thing is at dinnertime when it finally starts to crank up. I'd say the five boroughs could still do about 15 when all is said and done.
WCBS is still calling for a foot or more for Connecticut and the north shore of LI.
Saw the latest ETA, it looks NJ may get less than expected, with probably around a foot. Interior parts of Connecticut and the eastern Hudson valley looks like ground zero for 1-2 feet of snow. The city and LI may luck out with less than a foot, but near the end of the storm on Tuesday LI could see a good dose of heavy snow which could heighten accumulations out east.
Tomorrow's commute will probably make today's look like a piece of cake. With R/S line way offshore, all precip will be heavy snow late tonight and Tuesday.
Especially east and northeast of NYC.
Wonder how the MNRR New Haven line will fare. Service might get interrupted as things get really bad there tonight.
It is still raining this afternoon. As I went out to Great Neck, all buses were running fine and had their usual ridership.
From what I saw in Great Neck LIRR was running ontime.
Some spots on hills and bridges are icy, and once the cold air comes in later it will get dicey.
Also there is some glazing on trees, so this rain is freezing into a layer of ice. BTW, what does LIRR and NYCT use to de-ice the tracks and switches.
When I was out side this Morning in Kew Gardens. Everything is running on time. Everybody have no school today. Last night. My teacher call me last night and she say that there is no school for Monday. Because I live in Queens and I go to Middle School in Westchester. The school is near by Metro North New Haven Line. Now on to the Public Transportion. Buses are Running on time when I took the Q10 and Q74 this morning. The Subway I am not shure because I did not took the Subway Today. Now Let's see how about Tommorow. That's when the MTA will come to the Channlenge with the snow storm 2001!!
Dominick Bermudez.
Maybe you should transfer to a better school, and maybe not have such a long commute.
That school is better for me. Those schools in NYC have Stupid teachers.
Dominick Bermudez.
That school is better for me.
But not for your writing skills.
Those schools in NYC have Stupid teachers.
As opposed to stupid students?
The school I go to is a Good school. The Teachers there are Nice and the Teachers there teach to inprove in everything also in Writing. Here's the adress.
97 Centre AVE
New Rochelle,NY 10801
OK.
Dominick Bermudez.
Last I checked, I'll be doing a few hours on WCBS Newsradio this evening.... probably 6-8pm. Through the magic of digital communications, I'll be doing so from my home in Boston. You can bet I'm not travelling to NYC in this mess! Chances are I'll be on tomorrow too, though I'm not sure exactly when.
Until then, no comments from me on the weather -- Craig Allen's doing a great job. All I can say is that tomorrow is the bigger problem day, as we've suspected all along.
Does WCBS have a live internet feed? Maybe I can tune in while waiting to hear WTOP announce "School is closed."
No. There are no stations owned by CBS/Infinity that have live Internet feeds. The CEO of the organization, Mel Karmazin, forbids it. (Let's not get into a discussion of why here... it's way off-topic!)
Then what exactly is WTOP? Are they merely an affiliate of CBS? I know we get their broadcasts at the top of the hour.
Yes, WTOP is an affiliate, but not owned by CBS/Infinity.
But their studios are near the Tenleytown Station (there! on topic!)
Not really. Last time I checked, they were at 3800 Idaho Avenue meaning either you walk a considerable distance from Tenleytown or you take the bus.
I don't think that makes any sense. Since by broadcasting on the internet one can only increase your listening base, which of course lets the station charge more for advertising, and make more money, while it costs a lot less to do a webcast than a regular broadcast.
light snow in my area
Now there is light snow, expect snow to become heavy as convection moves in off the ocean. The low is winding now, things should start getting messy in a few hours.
The city may not see a foot, more like 8-10 inches, as well as Nassau county. Suffolk will see around 6 - 8 inches.
But Connectucut could get a foot or more.
Also the north shore of LI may still get close to a foot. This one is so unpredictable, so we'll just have to wait and see what happens.
There were no Bee-Line buses running today Monday March 5, 2001 because of the so called bad weather. All of the schools in Westchester County were closed today. I was out driving in my car today at midday and the roads weren't all that bad. The roads finally got bad during the evening hours. Now many of the roads are treacherous.
BMTJeff
HI all, Baseball season is just around the corner and that means Fantasy Baseball time. If you into fantasy sports I just started up a league at the SANDBOX.com web site. It's free to play and lots of fun. The name of my league is
NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT LEAGUE
It's a private league that requires a password which is
MTA
This league has 2 spaces left so join quickly, if you know of someone you likes Fantasy Baseball please e-mail this posting to them.
While i was out of town for few days & i have received few email about what is Traffic Checker do? So here is the information about NYCT Traffic Checker
DUTIES OF THE JOB:
Work throughout the five boroughs of NYC
Picked shift (3 times a year) by Seniority
7 Days/week, 24 hours/day
2 consecutive RDOs
No guarantee of hours
All types of weather
Strict accounitability for the data
Travel via public transportation
Having to stand for 6 hours
Reporting to location on time
Communication with the Control Desk
Weekly assignment pick-up every wed & friday at 3pm & 5pm
MUST HAVE A DIGITAL WATCH THAT DISPLAYS HOURS, MINUTES AND SECONDS
TYPES OF WORK:
Count passengers that enter/exit the subway system
Count passengers on/off the bus/train
Count anything that moves passengers
TRAINING PROGRAM:
Three week training class (AM only)
First week of training paid at $5:15 per hour
Second and third weeks paid at full rate of $11.4875
Bus/Subway pass issued after 30 days of employment
Identification card issued for identification only
SHIFTS
OVERNIGHT/AM 2200-1200
AM/MID DAY 0400-1700
MID DAY/PM 1000-2300
PM/OVERNIGHT 1400-0600
PROBATIONARY PERIOD
6 months
Counseling
TWU Dues start immediately
Medical coverage begins after 6 months
BENEFITS
Paid Bi-weekly
5 sick days Beginning May 1
Paid Holidays 9 days after 30 days employed. Birthday after 1 year. Personal Day after 1 year. January to January
Death in family 1 day immediate family
Jury Duty 3 days $40.00 per day
Military Leave 4 hours per day for 22 days, per year
Paid vacation one day per month, maximum 10 days per year for first 3 years. After 3 years 4 weeks 20 days Effective January
BTW: I will receive a letter from NYCT to go back again in 2 or 3 weeks
Peace
David Justiniano
Thanx a million, David!!! -Peace Out, Thomas :)
It looks like this storm will not turn out to be the "Blizzard" that the forecasters were calling for earlier today and last night. The latest doppler radar shows that the precipitation is generally on the light side. There is a pocket which covers extreme eastern Pennsylvania where there is no precipitation and it looks like it is headed our way. The big storm that everyone was talking about is probably not going to happen. We will get snow but, it will be much less than they had originally thought. It probably won't be the on the scale of the crippling snowstorm that occured on December 30, 2000 but, it will cause some problems nonetheless. Keep posted and go to
or any other weather website for the latest information on this storm.
BMTJeff
>>>It looks like this storm will not turn out to be the "Blizzard" that the forecasters were calling for earlier today and last night.
BMT Jeff: I feel the same way - and thank goodness, too. I got an unusual call from relatives in the city last night sternly warning about a full two feet of snow due to hit NYC any hour. Since I'm upstate so you know what I was thinking (Say your prayers!!). But, so far, all I see are a few scattered flurries. But you never know how tomorrow will be...
-cordially,
turnstiles
turnstiles:
Where are you located just so I'll have an idea where you are?
BMTJeff
I just received this month's DVARP newsletter. The main story is NE Philadelphia's Roosevelt Boulevard Subway study results. It has the highest ridership projections of any mass transit line proposed in the country, after NY's 2nd Ave. full subway. There's a lot of info here. While DVARP's website doesn't release their newsletter to non-members on their website until 2 months after the issue has come out, I think it is only fair to share this info with people who don't live in the Philly area, and could not be expected to join. E-mail me if you would like the entire newsletter and I know that you don't live in the Philly area. If you do live near Philly, please join. The info in the newsletter more than makes up for the membership fee, which, of course, helps us all. Otherwise, sorry Isaac, or any other DVARP board member.
Wow, this must be interesting. Having been up to NE Philly several times while going to Drexel University, I think having a new line up there is a good idea. Expect an e-mail from me today.
I'm a DVARP member, but my newsletter hasn't shown up in my mailbox yet. Were their any highpoints that could be summed up in a few sentences, so I can have something to gnaw on while I eagerly await my own copy?
Mark
Before you get your hopes up, the line makes a lot of sense, but it is in dire need of political support. Unfortunately, it doesn't have any. SEPTA is putting its weight behind the Schuylkill Valley Metro, and is ready to spend up to $2 billion to make this happen. The most sensible option for the Blvd is a depressed center roadway with a subway in the median (a win-win for transit users, pedestrians and motorists - keep in mind the Blvd is the worst roadway for ped accidents in Phila these days). While costs haven't been established formally yet, this is sure to be a $1 billion project at least.
I would certainly like to see this happen, but the political realities are lined up against it. We have a Democratic mayor who didn't get a lot of voter support from the Northeast. His goal is blight elimination, not a big problem in the Northeast. Our governor is a Republican from Erie, about as far as one can get in Pennsylvania from Phila. Our state legislature is openly anti-Phila. The Blvd is a State highway. Who will run interference for this project?
The unfortunate part of all of this is that the potential for ridership is VERY high and the potential for the capture of new riders is also VERY high, if you believe the consultant's numbers (and there's no reason not to). This is a project which is crying out to be built. If we could only find an apostle...
I suppose we should do what we can then, contacting our elected officials. I was told by a DVARP boardmember that contacting our State representatives and senators is the most important thing. For those of you reading who are northeast Philadelphia residents, that means writing to:
Senator Christine Tartaglione
Senate Box 203002
Harrisburg, PA 17120-3002
and for my neighborhood:
Representative Mark B. Cohen
House Democratic Caucus
417 Main Capitol
Harrisburg, PA 17120-2020
I plan to write to city officials as well. If anyone out there is interested, email me, and I will send you a Microsoft Word document of my letter to which you can attach your own name and send in.
Any other suggestions?
By the way, why do you feel the trench railroad is the best option? Just curious.
Mark
The express bus option really doesn't do much to attract riders out of cars, and the 'express' buses won't really move very quickly if traffic is bogged down. Also, the bus patrons have to walk out to the center of the Blvd. Keep in mind the large number of ped accidents on this 12-lane monstrosity, which is as wide as 300 feet from outer curb to outer curb in some places. It isn't very ped friendly (and that's an understatement).
Light rail is much of the same. If it operates in the median, then riders must cross at least 6 lanes to get to a sidewalk or to transfer to a crossing route. If it must compete with traffic, imagine plopping it into the existing mix. Conventional traffic signals don't work so well today on the Blvd since clear-out phases, etc must be utilized, and long signal cycles (2 minutes plus) must be used (as opposed to most other intersections in Phila where 60 second cycles are in place). Again, the ped friendliness is gone, and the long cycles will disfavor anyone on foot.
The 'hybrid' light rail is also problematic. Where it isn't in the median, it uses the left-most outer drive lane, which is bound to cause problems with traffic as motorists will not respect trains. The restrictions on train length will cause the line to not work in the North Broad subway, since there is no real way to keep North Broad riders off the trains in favor of thru Blvd riders. This scheme is, to me, the most hairbrained and non-thought-through one. There is no real reason to propose this one!
Use of the New York Short Line (now CSX) R/W presumes that CSX is willing to give up some space for it, which is a fairly generous and unrealistic assumption. The line also moves out of the Blvd 'spine' corridor onto a less important location. Many of the non-commuting generators (stores, shopping centers, etc) get missed by this alignment (where a Blvd alignment gets one to the front doors of many of these). Also, the line runs through several residential areas, garnering more potential opposition and less opportunity for park/ride (and more objections to traffic increases, more bus intrusion, etc).
The 'ditch' solves several problems. The Blvd's often wide median is a natural for a depressed road/rail line, which will be buffered from residential areas (even those homes directly on the Blvd). The unnatural 12-lane setup goes away and with it the many ped and accident problems also disappear. Where the rail line has stations, cross street bus lines could pull up literally right to the doors of the station (or at least at the top of the stairways) and interchange riders, who would not have to cross even a single Blvd lane. And, perhaps most importantly, political support becomes easier - there is something for the long-suffering transit rider, the driver, the vulnerable pedestrian and the NIMBY's can't complain too much about something better than the existing situation being built too close to them.
I have heard that some rapid transit supporters hate the 'ditch' because of the depressed highway. While I don't personally advocate building new roadways, the need here is crying out for something. The Blvd is carrying higher volumes than some interstate highways and it's little more than a too-wide surface street. Besides, support for a transit-only solution will not win the day here. The 'ditch' makes the Northeast a more livable place and takes thousands of bus movements now heading from and to Frankford Terminal every day out of the mix. It will also, finally, help the Northeast connect with the rest of the city much more efficiently.
I'm sure this has been brought up before, but I can't find it on any of the archives to see if it has, so forgive me if I'm bringing up something that has been discussed before. But, what are those two lights on the sides of the Rohr cars? There is a blue light and an orange light. The blue light used to be on all the time, even when the train would sit in the station, but now there is this blinking orange light that goes on when the train is slowing down and stops when the doors have opened, and the blue light is off altogether. Between the lights in the middle of the car that change from green to orange when the train stops, the red light when the door is opening and these blue and orange lights on the sides of the train, it looks like a Christmas tree when it comes in.
Thanks
Someone asked about the orange lights and no one responded. I think they have to do with the braking.
The green and orange lights between the cars indicate if the braking is on (orange) or off (green). This is also shown on the operator's console.
The red lights on the side simply show if a door is open in a paticular car. The Rohrs used to have them above each doorway many years ago.
I asked about that when I was there on February 18 and was advised they are regenerative indicator lights.
This feature was added when the 1000s received AC propulsion.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
if the storm proves to be as bad as predicted there will a #7 railfan trip tomorrow... at sundown we will meet at times square and take the #7 express to flushing to observe the arcing contact shoes of the trusty redbird fleet... see the shoes light up long island city as the trains make their way across queens... if we are lucky, a particularly hot piece of contact shoe metal may fall down to the amtrak tracks right at the spot where the entire r142 fleet is being stored as they await conversion into staples at the former swingline staple factory... it will also be interesting to check with police department records to see if the falling pieces of hot metal put a crimp in the alleged increase in illicit activities under the #7 line...
as an added treat, i am working on getting jeff h and stephen bauman to participate in a symposium on board the train on some of the finer points of electromagnetic theory as well as an explanation of how relativistic quantum mechanics can be used to explain the lower than expected acceleration rates of recently purchased subway cars...
it will also be interesting to check with police department records to see if the falling pieces of hot metal put a crimp in the alleged increase in illicit activities under the #7 line...
Hot metal?? Couldn't that actually encourage such behavior?
I took my own fantrip on the Sea Beach tonight, hoping the cut would fill completely with snow, necessitating a Slant to go through and dig a tunnel for my R-32. Needless to say, I was disappointed.
It's quite icy out there right now, we seem to be getting alot of sleet.
You'd need a BMT standard for that. Oops, make that a Triplex.:-)
I wonder who opened the Fresca bottle - remember those 1967 Fresca commercials with the closing line: "Introducing the ice-cold frosty taste of Fresca. It's a blizzard."?
Oh no, another of my acquaintances has caught HPS :-( It's spreading faster then the swine flue
Mr t
Sounds like fun. Man, I wish I could get a room at the Sheraton LGA tonight. Because I have a feeling that once the snow comes, there will be no way to Flushing from "What's a shovel" Sea Cliff.
And if there was, once things got nasty in the evening I'd be stranded in Flushing. Any place in Flushing open all night?
Of course getting stranded with a few mystical girls might be just what I need right now. :-)
Some good Korean restaurants are 24 hours, but I'd assume they expect you to keep eating while you're there... then there are always the fine establishments under the 7 train where activities happen at night ;)
heypaul, do you plan to bring your gas grille along?
They'll be hungry mouths to feed with the storm circling like a vulture.
BMTman
This may have been discussed here before, so please clear up my memory.
T.S.S........stands for transportation station supervisor ??
ALSO.......
If a conductor, expierencing a very bad day points to the striped conductors position board with his or her middle finger, can they be written up by a supervisor? Technically they are still "pointing" to the board !!
Bill "Newkirk"
>>> If a conductor, expierencing a very bad day points to the striped conductors position board with his or her middle finger, can they be written up by a supervisor? <<<
It probably depends upon how high on the board the C/R is pointing, and whether the supervisor is standing in front of the board at the time. :-)
Tom
>>>T.S.S........stands for transportation station supervisor ?? <<<
No, TSS= Train Service Supervisor
Peace,
ANDEE
y'know, I am not very interested in arguing immigration, linguistic preferences, or much of the rest of that stuff. I am interested in talking rail based electrified transit.
Well currently the only problem transit is facing is this snow and ice. It's brutal out there (at least where I am). The road is like an ice skating rink.
I sure hope the T/O's and B/O's out there take it slow and steady.
Ice can sometimes be worse than snow, especially for buses.
I've made the decision, and there's no turning back. There's nothing you people can do to stop me. I'm a hypocrite and a sell-out.
I've been happily using public transportation as my sole means of transit for the past eight years, but I've made the decision to (gasp!) purchase an automobile sometime this spring.
Please, calm yourselves. I have my reasons, and I did not reach this decision lightly.
Starting in June I'll be taking some classes out in the plastic wastelands of DuPage County, and as much as I would like to be able to take public transit out there, it simply ain't happening. Taking public transit to get from here to College of DuPage would involve all three of Chicago's transit agencies, and the schedule would require me to take two full days off from work each week to take two classes. The money I'd be losing from each paycheck by doing that is over double what I'd be paying to own a car. Having a car will allow me to take night classes and still keep somewhat of a full-time work schedule. (But believe me, I'd much rather be using the money to continue my plans for world domination or even move into a larger apartment.)
I won't be ready to buy until around the first of June, and I'm looking to get a used, late-model sedan such as a Saturn SL or Toyota Corolla or possibly something a little larger.
As much as I rant and rave about this country's over-dependency upon automobiles, sometimes the car is still the only practical option for getting from Point A to Point B. Besides, if I end up moving to Philly next year to go to Drexel, a car will probably be a necessity. SEPTA is okay, but from what I know about Philly, having a car is the way to go. I guess this probably speaks more about the sad state of public transportation and urban planning in the US than anything else.
At least I won't be getting an SUV (as if I could afford one), and I still have no plans to set one foot inside the Naperville Wal-Mart store. Maybe I'll even be able to make it out to IRM and to my hometown of Cincinnati once in a while, now that I'll have a way to get there.
Stay tuned for further developments...
-- David
Chicago, IL
David: I know how you feel, buddy. I've been there...
In my case, I moved to Los Angeles and held out for about four years before I bought a car. I'm still a New Yorker at heart and absolutely HATE to drive. Each time I changed jobs, I had to move close to where I worked to avoid driving as much as possible. I bought a 995 Honda Civic, brand new, and have only logged 35,000 miles on it.
Unfortunately, Los Angeles is a city where having a car is a must. Los Angeles DEFINES urban sprawl. Furthmore, the hosility towards rapid transit, and the extreme NIMBY-ism of this city have more or less doomed any future transit projects.
I'd GLADLY take a subway to work if there was a line between my and my place of employment.
LA actually, according to some group, isn't even in the top 10 in urban sprawl. Jacksonville ranks first. I don't know where DC comes in but it was in the top 5.
You may be thinking about the Sierra Club's 1998 report, The Dark Side of the American Dream: The Costs and Consequences of Suburban Sprawl in which the top 30 cities with the worst sprawl problems are divided into categories based on size and ranked in order. A summary page is given for each location. In large cities with over 1 million on population, Atlanta ranked worst. (Chicago was #10.) Orlando was the worst of medium-sized cities, and McAllen, Texas was worst for small cities. Los Angeles gets a dishonorable mention, although the report acknowledges that LA pretty much invented sprawl. However, the report is dated 1998, so the information may have changed.
There's more up-to-date information about sprawl on the Sierra Club's main Challenge to Sprawl Campaign site.
-- David
Chicago, IL
How come Philadelphia is not on the list? Is it because that the suburban areas have mass transit well integrated into the area?
Well, with the work on 202, SEPTA has added quite a few rotues and extended the R5 to Thorndale. Philadelphia is one of the most transit dependent cities in the nation. Also, the regional rail system is pretty decent as well, and it's really fast to take it into the city than deal with teh traffic of the city and the Schulykill Expressway. Anyway, although I would love to have more bus routes in Bryn Mawr, the suburban transit it pretty decent. At least, it is in Deleware County.
Philadelphia has the highest number of people who walk to work of any city, including me, unless it's raining :)
L.A. may not have the worst urban sprawl, but they certainly are the most rapid-transit-phobic people immaginable. People will get that deer-in-the-headlights look if you so much as suggest they take a bus or the Metro Red Line or Blue Line. Many gloat that they have never been on a train or bus in their life. This is a city where people take their cars out to drive to the 7-11 a block away, and freak out when it rains.
MP: I know exactly what you mean. I've lived in California for going on 47 years and I love it out here. But I am perplexed and irritated that so many of my friends and neighbors abhor public transportation and cling to their cars like barnicles on a ship. Fortunately for me, I live only two miles from where I teach so a car is not a matter of life and death to me. But I will tell you this. Even at two miles, if I could catch a subway and ride four or five stations to work I would do it just for the thrill of it. Notice I didn't say convenience. That's because convenience goes without saying. We do have a green and blue line from the burbs to LA so it is a start but old habits die hard. Even with urban sprawl a good public rail system could work out here but people love their cars.
The Red and Blue Line goes to downtow, remember we rode it 2 1/2 months ago. The Green goes along the 105 from Norwalk to Redondo beach
If you're a sell-out, I wonder what I am.
I got my driver's license at 17, the earliest I could get it (I could have gotten it at 16, but I wouldn't have been able to use it) just like a typical suburban person.
I have had a car since day one (again, typical suburban person) even though I was always a railfan. Although this one isn't my fault. My father had purchased a new car, didn't get rid of the old car, and my mother doesn't drive, so I ended up getting the old car.
And the worst one of all:
I actually ENJOY driving the car.
Believe it or not, I actually enjoy driving, too, as long as I'm not: 1) Looking for a parking spot, 2) Stuck in traffic, or 3) Filling up at the gas pump. Unfortunately, being the city-dweller that I am, I'll probably end up spending considerable time doing each.
Hopefully I'll be able to make it outside the city every so often and do some driving out on the open road. That's probably the one thing I really do miss about having a car. Short-distance road trip options in this area are fairly scarce (unlike Boston or NYC, we don't have the beach or mountains nearby), but there's places like Lake Geneva, Madison, Milwaukee, the Fox River Valley, the Indiana Dunes, and of course IRM that each make for good day trips.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I couldn't enjoy driving in your area or any city, and the freeways or expressways are the worst.Too fast for the crowded conditions. I rented a car to get to IRM some time back, the only way I could really get there which sadly is exactly the situation you describe for yourself which does apply to a lot of people. So you have a lot of company even in the railfan community.
I rented and drove the car in and out of O'Hare , Edens Expwy. bad enough but around the airport..too much for this old man who's nervous anyway.
I hate to say most of even transit workers I knew in NYCity that could have taken a train or bus on their pass still drove; in a lot of cases because where they lived just didn't fit public transit to where they had to work. But some indeed still drove even when their home was on the same line they worked on.
""(unlike Boston or NYC, we don't have the beach""
Isn't Chicago off lake Michigan? Hence beach!
While there's little on this earth that compares to the pleasure of driving down Lake Shore Drive on a hot summer day with the windows down, I was thinking more in terms of a real beach on an actual ocean, such as Daytona, Coney Island, or the Outer Banks of North Carolina.
Besides, I can walk to Chicago's beaches anytime I want, since I only live two blocks from the lakefront. No need for a car to do that.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Don't consider yourself a sell-out or a failed railfan just because you're getting a car. As long as you avoid using the car for trips on which transit would be just as convenient, you can maintain your honor.
I too bought a car after a little over a year in Philadelphia. You're right about SEPTA. It has a lot of holes that need to be filled in, and I try to use the car for filling in those holes.
Don't feel like a sell-out. That's why Park n' Ride lots were invented. And if you do go to Drexel, it is one of the best transit-served place in the city.
Personally, I like driving and automobiles, but to take a machine that was born to fly free across Nevada highways and force it to endure the terror of city driving feels cruel to me.
Mark
I like what they call these lots in Washington, DC: "Kiss and Ride" lots.
People who use park-and ride lots should be commended. They COULD use their cars to drive all the way to their eventual destination, but they chose to use mass transit for the bulk of their trips.
"I like what they call these lots in Washington, DC: 'Kiss and Ride' lots."
Unless the usage is *totally* different in D.C. than the rest of the country, "kiss and ride" is not just a synonym for park-and-ride. It refers to a driveway or lot at a station where people can be picked up or dropped off by someone else but NOT park themselves; that is, someone has to be sitting in a car for it to legally be in the "kiss and ride" area. Presumably, the person doing the dropping-off and picking-up is the transit rider's spouse, S.O., or parent, hence the name. Kiss-and-ride can be in addition to or instead of park-and-ride.
There are some metered spaces in kiss-and-ride so that the person get get out and wait at the faregate bank.
This may stun you, but it IS possible to be a motorist AND a transit buff at the same time! A lot of NYC Subtalkers live in an outer borough or the 'burbs, so a car is needed to get to many places other than Manhattan.
When I attend transit forums and hearings, there's auto and motorist-bashing to the sky. I offered someone a lift to the Jamaica LIRR when one let out long after dark, and was immediately group-ostracized for even HAVING a car, let alone taking one to anything transit-related.
Conversely, CAR & TRAVEL, the AAA newsletter, uniformly pans any idea or suggestion that using public transportation might be preferable to private auto in some situations- especially whenever the issue of a portion of MTA Bridge & Tunnel tolls subsidizing mass transit comes up.
Too many people think strictly in black and white.
I aggree. We need BOTH our roads AND our public transit in this city. I'm both a subfan and a roadgeek myself, and I don't believe one invalidates the other. It is frustrating to see "Car and Travel" rip on anything favoring transit (or even SUGGESTING that a new stretch of rail be built when the money could be diverted to roads.) Apparently they weren't on the Long Island roads durring the LIRR strike! And public transit types can sometimes be just as bad.
Andrew
Actually, in the less densely populated areas of the suburbs and of newer sunbelt cities, integrating cars and transit makes a lot of sense. Lots of residential areas aren't densely populated to warrant transit lines running within a half-mile of everyone's house. But a few lines within a mile or two reachable by car from most anywhere in a metro area could cut a lot of thirty-mile commute drives into two mile drives, greatly reducing car use and pollution. Used this ways, cars can greatly expand the capabilities of tranist.
Like I said, that's why they invented park n' ride lots.
Mark
Based on the experience that my son has had, I highly reccomend the Toyota Corolla. He has a 5-spd. LE model that he bought in '98 and
has'nt had 1 problem with it!
Chuck Greene
I recommend an R-32.
Hey, I own a '72 VW Bug myself, but I find it more convenient to use SEPTA because of the congestion. I am planing to move to the suburbs myself. There is only one place I have in mind: Lindenwold, New Jersey. I have chosen that because (a), it has access to public transportation (PATCO, N.J. Transit's A.C. Line and N.J. Transit buses) and (b), how many suburban areas have subways? That is why The "Park-And-Ride" was invented.
Mh, mh, mh, and to think I really respected you. Why'd you pick a college in the boonies? Just kidding, I understand it's not you, it's the Man who made you do it.
[At least I won't be getting an SUV ....
Stay tuned for further developments.]
So, you'll be able to ride the rails just for fun .... and in the not too distant future you'll be a wagon master (station wagon) or driving that SUV with 6 screeming kids in the back ;-) You are on your way all right, definitely no turning back.
Mr t__:^)
I've been trying to improve my homepage with quicker download times and more photographs. It's still just a collection of images at the moment, but I hope to add text and other content later. New photos are from the Newark City Subway and Seashore Trolley Museum. I plan to research more about the cars there as soon as I get the time. If anyone hasn't seen it, I've got a photo of the SOAC train and (what I think is) an R-4. Check it out:
Keystone Pete's Trolley Photos
Very nice Newark shots, especially considering they were taken in February.
I'm still hoping for one last ride before the PCCs are pulled.
Very nice layout, I enjoyed them. Thanks for the link.
BTW, I had the privlidge of operating the Boston El car #5821 last year, and their "A train" did a trip that day too. Your shot of #5223 at Newark was the first I had seen of what the "Flat Car" looks like.
Guess the article & roster in Aporil '99 Railpace must have been wrong, as it's much more then a Flat Car. I attached a copy of your shot to my copy of the article.
Mr t__:^)
Friday evening I sent an e-mail to CTA's customer serive department about the incident on the Red Line. (The e-mail I sent was a slightly-edited carbon copy of my original SubTalk posting.) Here's the response I just recieved:
Thank you for your e-mail.
I appreciate you reporting this incident to us. The safety of CTA riders is of the utmost importance to us. I have forwarded your e-mail to Robert Takagi, General Manager of the Redline. In regards to our one- man service they are not new to Chicago's public transit system. The CTA has a long history of single person train operations. The Skokie Swift Yellow Line has operated one-man trains since the line went into service in 1964. The Midway Orange Line began servicing the Loop and Midway Airport in October of 1993. Since the line's inception, running single-person operated trains was
the standard procedure.
The Ravenswood Brown Line was converted to a one-man operation in February 1995. Years ago, in the early 1960s through 1985, the Evanston Purple Line trains were one-man operations.
In addition, most major North American and European rail transit systems function in all or part under this procedure. However, with the recent switch to one-man operations on the Green, Red and Purple Lines, there have been several concerns expressed about one-man train operations that we would like to address.
"One-man operations tend to be slower than traditional two-man operations." This is only temporary. Experience shows us that it takes rail operators a few weeks to adjust to the new procedures. This sometimes results in delays. These minor delays disappear after a few weeks. However, the total running time of the train trip may increase by about three minutes. (Riders of the Purple Line should keep in mind that since the Purple Line added four additional stops, their commutes may have been increased by about three minutes because of these new stops.)
"One-man operations have more accidents than two-man operations." A major study of one-man operations shows this procedure to be substantially safer than the traditional two-man mode. The CTA's public accident rate is one of the lowest in the country.
"One-man is less secure." With the switch to one-man operations, customers have voiced concerns over the perception of decreased security. To address those concerns, the CTA is implementing a new security initiative. A private security firm will be providing overnight customer and facility security at 122 CTA rail stations
that remain in operation between the hours of 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. Stationary security officers will be assigned at each of these 122 rail stations. Presently, there are other existing CTA security forces in place that monitor the rail lines, bus routes and non-passenger CTA facilities with roving security teams. The customer assistants will be equipped with two-way radios and will be dressed in uniforms so CTA customers can easily identify them as security officers. These officers will also provide some limited customer service responsibilities in connection with the new Transit Card system.
In addition, all rail cars that were formerly used in a two-man train operation will be fitted with an intercom system. With the intercom system in place, customers requiring assistance will be able to communicate with the rail operator immediately in case of an emergency.
Finally, the CTA has committed $40 million this year to improve our stations. All of these improvements are aimed at providing a cleaner, safer environment for our customers as they wait for their trains. Station improvements include painting, brighter lighting fixtures, benches, new garbage cans and customer attendant call buttons.
The CTA is committed to providing you with on-time, clean, safe and customer-friendly service. The adoption of one-man operations will improve our labor efficiency and save us approximately $13.8 million annually. These savings will then be reinvested into the system to improve our service.Thank you again for reporting this matter.
Sincerely,
Customer Service
The response to my OPTO concerns is basically a rehash of their press release from when conductors were first eliminated, but at least they're forwarding the incident in question to the general manager of the Red Line, which was my primary objective for writing.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Dave,
You got a form letter copy and paste, period. Nice try though.
So sincere.
I should go complain about the experience I had on the #10 bus but I am sure they will love to hear about something that happened 7 months ago and I will just get a letter from a template anyway.
Customer Service is so sincerce he can't sign his name, or even work ID # LOL
I'm 99% sure that the "forwarded to Mr. Takagi " bit is just the old fashioned customer service trick known as "passing the buck".
Keep a copy of the email and reply, if a Rachel Barton type incident occurs, you can give (or sell?) it as evidence to the plaintiff.
I've taken alot of flack for the "subway problems today" post and my feelings have taken a beating.
This is a forum where we should let people have freedom of speech, and those with different beliefs should not be personally attacked and called hurtful things like I have.
If this doesn't stop we all know where this will end, a possible suspension of Subtalk.
Lets keep the peace, otherwise I won't be involved here anymore as no one chooses their feelings to be hurt.
Peace...please :-)
There's a difference between 'different beliefs' and racists/bigots.
-Hank
Hopefully you will notice the two standards here. Your comments reflect freedom of speach and should be allowed. Others' comments to your comments are hurtful and shouldn't be.
Your best bet is to keep your thoughts about racial or ethnic groups to yourself, and spare the site what it went through over the weekend.
As the standard that yelling "FIRE" in a theater is not covered by the Freedom of Speech admenment to the Consititution, personal attacks on use of bigotry and slander are not covered as well.
Second this is a PRIVATE site so your freedom of speech does not apply.
Here's what's going onat Transfer Point, my web site.
First, all unanimated GIFs have been replaced with PNG files.
COURT ST. SHUTTLE
TRANSIT SOUNDS MILLENNIUM has replaced all WAV and MP3 files with OGG Vorbis files. The latest versions of Winamp and Sonique have support for this new format.
Also, there are some new sounds at TSM, including a trip on a train of R142A cars around the City Hall Loop, and some sounds of buses in the JFK Airport area.
Click here to go there.
R36 #9346
> has replaced all WAV and MP3 files with OGG Vorbis files.
What the hell is this proprietary crap? Is there some reason that a format like wav or mp3 which is nearly universally supported across operating systems (Win, Mac, Unix variants) needs to be replaced with something like this? Not OGG, UGH! Just say no.
-Dave
AMEN
Here's a link for those not already in the know about OGG.
Here's one for PNG
Here's one for MNG, a subset of PNG.
There are some sites that are getting rid of their GIFs in place of PNGs.
Remember, Transfer Point is my site, to do with however I wish. If I want to replace all animated GIFs with MNGs, I will. OGG is considered to be MP3's replacement.
The primary purpose for your web page is to bring information to people. If it wasn't, it would be on your hard drive instead of a web server.
I can create a webpage in Swahili if I want, but as long as I want to cater to English-speaking clientele, I wouldn't.
There is no reason for you to change the "language" of your files because you find them to be superior. You want your page available to most people.
I can write a web page in Esperanto. It's a superior language, but who knows it? Even if it is easier to learn and understand.
It would seem like yellow would more or less be the standard color for elevated structures in NYC. But I've noticed a handful of places where they're in other colors. The Flushing IRT is a unique concrete structure for its Queens Blvd section, then green when in turns onto Roosevelt Ave, then grey after arround Junction Blvd. Also, some of the IRTs in the Bronx are in grey, and the Broadway el is green in East New York. Do these colors mean anything? Did they distinguish IRT from BMT somehow or something? What colors are the other structures, specifically the Livonia IRT? The Bronx IRTs? The southern division BMTs?
:-) Andrew
Oh! And there's an odd red color for the IRT Flushing and BMT Corona line where they meet at Queensboro Plaza. North and south of there (north until Rawson on the 7) the structures are yellow.
:-) Andrew
The majority of the Bronx Els are grey, although the White Plains Road El, the A train El @ Rockaway Blvd, the Broadway (1/9) El (except at the 125th Street Station, where it is grey), the West End (B/M) Els and I think parts of the Jerome Av (4) El are brown. You have to ask someone else about the Livonia El. I think the Broadway (J/Z) El is green at ENY but brown the rest of the way. I rode there just last year. The Canarise Line (L) is mainly grey, except at ENY, I think.
(You know, the Atlantic Avenue (L) Station is very peculiar in that the two current platforms are so far apart that it seems like they are 1 block apart. I just wanna mention that.)
Anyway, the Els are mostly grey except for the White Plains (2) north of Bronx Park East, the West End (B/M), the Broadway (J/Z), the Jerome (4), The Brighton (D/Q), and the Broadway (1/9) Els. That is according to my knowledge.
CWalNYC (8^)
P.s. I know this because I ride most of them often enough to talk about them.
Wrong. The West End El was originally Brown and Black, within the last two years it has been repainted to green as part of the abatement of lead paint.
The Culver El is Green, originally Brown and Black
The Broadway BMT el is Green, originally Brown and Black.
The portion of the Liberty Avenue El structure (A train) that descends down then turns south towards the Rockaways is painted green.
Also, the Livonia Avenue El structure is kind of a brown/olive green paint job. Its definately in need of a paint job. There are rust spots all over it.
As far as the Broadway BMT El, I know back in the 1970s, it used to be painted green, along with the portion of the el over Jamaica Avenue.
Livonia El have "sections" that are painted, but for the most part it needs a paint job. The platforms at Atlantic Ave on the L are a block apart.
3TM
Is there a reason for the choice? In Philadelphia our el structure is a depressing pale blue. For my tastes, the best color to paint a stark steel strucutre is that orange-red that is used on the Golden Gate Bridge. It's about the only shade that really makes that kind of steel look cheerful. The big steel "stabile" sculptures of Alexander Calder (we have one in front of our art museum) also used that color, and they're always happy looking. I wish they'd repaint our els and the Ben Franklin Bridge in it.
Mark
The elevated structure pertaining to the 1/9 that runs over Broadway in Manhattan and the Bronx is dirt-colored. I don't know off-hand what the specific colors of the other elevated structures are.
Actually, you raise a good question about the origin of the colors. My initial guess is that was what they were painted before, and the previous color didn't cause complaints, so let's repaint it the same color.
The initial choice of color was probably not a very thoroughly researched decision. With bridges and overpasses, the paint scheme usually serves more to protect the steel and not cause a distraction to motorists, pedestrians, and residents, and less to be artistic.
But this is all speculation, and I pose the question if there really is a color scheme to the elevated structures, initially or now?
Matt-2Av
Back when I worked for the TA, I asked a supervisor why the el near where I lived was being painted Navy blue ... the answer? SURPLUS PAINT from the feds in insane lot sizes for cheap. I suspect the same policy still applies. Whatever paint they can get in boatloads as cheap as possible is what gets slapped up by the contractors when it's hide the rust time again ... betcha ...
This might be because Philly's els are the "Blue Line" in official lingo.
I like that The Frankford el is painted blue. It's much better than the old green paint and that god-awful red paint that is on The Market Street El (IMO, The Market Street El should have been painted blue).
Okay, maybe we should leave the el blue for line color code reasons. I think they could use a happier blue, though. But the Ben Franklin Bridge would sure look nice in orange-red. Since everyone's been asking how color decisions were made, the Goldern Gate actually got its color because the steel originally had a red protective coating. During construction, people came to like the color. I think the final color was actually put to a vote, and red won.
Mark
The Astoria el sub-structure is rust-brown. The stations are beige-painted aluminum screens with pink roofs (rooves?) on the canopies and light blue-painted railings (similar to the color of the Ben Franklin Br. in Philly), except where they used a darker blue to paint over graffiti.
Where the Astoria el meets the Flushing el, close to Queensboro plaza, the main horizontal girders are marshmallow-peep-pink (yuck), the vertical supports and cross-bracing a light gray. The QBP Station's superstructure (the part above the tracks) has just been repainted in a lovely hunter green and the windows replaced during the recent remodelling.
Your els are yellow?
The only elevated section of el I've seen from ground level was the 7 at Willets Point, and it was blue, IIRC.
We have fli[-flopping colors in Philly, too. The Market St. El is rusty, rusty, chipping red. Most of the Frankford El is blue until the section around Frankford Terminal which looks just as bad as the Market St side except it's green.
But yellow? That seems like it would be tough on the eyes of pedestrians and passing motorists. Oh well.
125th Street on the 1/9 showing a kaleidoscope
of paint-over colors on the el... just look
under the tracks (from within a stopped train)..
and along the (back supports) on the open-air
portions of the platform..
Around 1984, I remember that the TA began painting the White Plains Road el red. It looked nice that way. A lot better than the brownish-yellow that began rusting away. But then they replaced the red with a grayish-silver. Now that's starting to rust.
The MTA had decided in their infinite wisdom to junk the original IND lighting which has been in my station's mezzanine for 60 years in favor of new fluorescent junk. They had just replaced the bulbs too, probably so the workers could have something to see with. I better get some pictures, currently only the brackets have been placed into the ceiling, no fixtures yet.
You don't mean platform lighting, perhaps mezzanine and fare control areas ?
Bill "Newkirk"
That is a shame.
Presumably they could leave the old fixtures in place and maintain them with working bulbs while installing the flourescent tube lighting to bring the station up to code for illumination without removing the original lighting.
On a similar note, only one station on the original Yonge subway in Toronto has its original wall tiles; all the others have been renovated and lost their original wall tiles and signs in the process and this last station, Eglinton, is due for renovation soon so I'd probably better get my camera out and take pictures sooner rather than later. When they renovate stations they visually bear almost no resemblance to the original station except the layout may remain somewhat the same.
Shame. The TA doesn't seem to realize that when you 'upgrade' you should also retain some flavor of the original station.
Example: the original IND style station signage. Replaced with ho-hum ADA signage.
Example: renovation of Broad and Fulton Street BMT into a BMT style tile that was never there when the stations were completed in 1931 (they were finished off in IND-style tiling).
Example: 8th Avenue BMT, same reasons as above.
The ORIGINAL sketches for Broad and Fulton BMT stations indicated that a Grecian design was to be installed. They cut corners and put up IND style tile, that was what they were using at the time (1931). I am not sure if they had this in mind for 8th Avenue-14th Street, but I am glad to see that they attempted to recreate the Canarsie style tile; the only beef I have with it is: a) the colors are kind of dull, not enough brights; b) they cheated! they didn't cut it randomly, they used a pattern.
wayne
It seems that I am the only person here who COMMENDS this action.
The IND is boring, its lighting is just as boring and are just bare light bulbs hanging from the ceiling. It's not like those lights do a good job either. This is a GREAT development, and a sign of progress.
Bare light bulbs from the ceiling are part of what gives the IND it's unique charm. The IND is anything but boring, most examples of the construction are a master of Art Deco design and form. Some examples are the graceful arch bridge over 4th Avenue, and the substations designed to fit with and grace the community.
Progress is important, but not at the cost of the original aspects of the handiwork. You can incorporate new illumination whilst retaining the original features.
The BMT and IRT also have unique style. The IRT has it's bas reliefs and murals and the BMT had it's unique rolling stock.
Shame some examples of BMT rolling stock could not be saved.
Built in the era of art-deco, the IND brought the subway to new heights of bathroomlikeness. It's plain white tile and colored stripe stations were horribly bland and did not fit into this era of design.
Bare light bulbs are not at all charming. I can see light bulbs at home. Meanwhile, Even if it isn't great and unique like some of the IRT designs, BMT tile is much better. The loss of the IND tile at the three BMT stations where it was installed is nothing. There are hundreds of lookalike IND tiled stations remaining that make the DC Metro look diverse in station design.
Not that there's anything wrong with the DC Metro, at least there they picked a uniform design that's unique and appealing and also practical. It's too bad I can't say the same for the IND.
The key word for the IND was PRACTICAL. What could be done to better service, what could be done to make it easier to locate a station, etc., etc.
I can't agree with your ideas of what is 'bland', certainly not the structures of IND that I had mentioned in my prior posts. In addition, I would not call the vaulted ceiling at 4th Avenue 'bland', nor the shape and scope of the 190th Street IND station, with it's rock motif built into the outer station structure. There are more examples.
I acknowledge that since the IND was constructed in the depression years, the stations are of similiar design to one another, but what separates the IND from the BMT and IRT is the physical infastructure of the system: flying junctions, wider turns, longer stations, etc. etc. These improvements gave (and STILL give) the IND a FUNCTIONAL improvement over the BMT and IRT. So what if the tiles may appear similar? You'll get home faster. So what if the color is drab? You wont be delayed waiting for a train to cut across your track, since we have flying junctions. So what if you see bare bulbs? You wont have to see your train crawl to 5 miles an hour due to a sharp turn with tons of timers on it.
You seem to be missing the point with regard to the three BMT stations, the point of renovation (of TA stations) is to restore the station to what was, or at least close to how it appeared at opening. Even though as you say IND tile is 'bland', that IND-style tile was original equipment at those BMT stations. It was a concerned effort at bringing together at least two systems, even though it would take many more decades until that became a reality. To replace the tile with a fake copy of BMT tile is defacing the original intention of the designers, architects and planners.
Washington's Metro style is unique, but certainly impratical. At Metro Center, you have tiles that are always being repaired (floor), leaks abound, and on the elevated sections, those lights encased in glass bulbs do zero for lighting the station areas, which was it's intent.
Bare bulbs? Practical. A similar station design? Practical. Flying Junctions? Practical. Longer stations? Practical. Wider Curves? Practical.
There's no question, though, that while the IND's engineering in relation to the tracks and platforms themselves was a step forward over the BMT and IRT, they went way, way overboard on their extra space on the mezzanine levels, and the Eighth Ave. express/local design along CPW was a 40-year nightmare for people without earplugs waiting at the local stations (though a joy to ride past on one of the R-10 cars).
As far as the tiles go, they are bland, and also tended to get worse as the years went on. The Post-WWII East New York-Euclid section on the A/C is a slight update of the original IND tile design and not much different from the 1930s efforts, but then we arrive at Grant Ave., the Great Satan of NYC subway station design. Its tile scheme was the template for the next 15 years of station design within the system, including the IND Grand Street and 57th Street stops and those gawdaful platform extensions on the IRT that are only now being eliminated.
I suppose since they were using depression-era tax dollars to build the IND, cheap station design shouldn't be considered a big minus, but the color coding plan never caught on with the general public and a little more individuality at each station would have been a good thing.
Did someone say something about the joy of riding along CPW on a thundering express of R-10s?:-) Been there, done that many times. I just hope they don't resort to putting any more timers or WDs on that stretch.
I agree with you that the IND built practically, but the practical stuff has been built. There is no reason for the TA to maintain that.
In fact, your advocacy for keeping the lights is in contradiction to your call for more practicality. Today, fluorescent lights are more practical. Keeping the old bare bulbs for nostalgia's sake would not make any sense.
Today we live in a wealthier time and we can afford to spend more on station renovations. While not the most important goal, design and aesthetics are still very important and should not be ignored. The current MTA's plan to rebuild stations to look like they did as they were built is only because there original plan (destroy the old stuff) made everything uglier. It just so happens that the older stuff is nicer. Except for those exceptions you mentioned, the IND is not nicer than anything modern, except for the stuff that followed it in the 50s, 60s and 70s, that's much worse.
We should not do anything just because it was done in a certain way in the past. The original architects, designers and planners are dead, and we should let the architects, planners and designers of this generation have a chance.
Tradition serves only as a barrier to progress.
Not to mention that those bulbs are custom manufactured for the TA at odd wattages and left-hand threads.
-Hank
Those incandescent bulbs made for a dim, dingy atmosphere. Not only in mezzanines, but platforms as well. I still remember incandescent lighting on platforms on the Concourse, Fulton St., and Queens lines into the late 70s. Fluorescent lighting is a big, big improvement.
>>>...but platforms as well. I still remember incandescent lighting on platforms on the Concourse...<<<
Many mezzanines on the Concourse STILL have incandescaents, Fordham comes to mind, It looks like a dungeon.
Peace,
ANDEE
Fordham Road merely LOOKS like a dungeon; At Bedford Park, you actually HAVE a dungeon.
I sez: Leave da bulbz alone!
wayne
I've noticed also that 71/Continental as well as 63rd drive has had every single light bulb replaced (on the mezzanine), including ones directly above / next to existing fluorescents. Everything looks unnaturally bright.
You'd half expect Vincent Price to appear and say, "Good evening".:-)
And I expect John Madden to say that that doesn't make a lick of sense!
Not exactly. I maintain that the bare lamps (subject matter of this post) in some of the IND concourses can be maintained, while augmented with the newer, floursecent lamps.
Let me make one thing clear, I am not one of these zealots, crazed and determined not to allow progress! Far from it! Example: Signal replacement on the West End Line: About time, long overdue. Painting of el structures: Welcomed! I can give more examples.
However, I firmly believe that progress can be intertwined with maintaining the flavor and scope of the original work, which gets me back to the bare bulbs. I hate floursecent light, it's an artifical shade, it's too bright, doesn't have a warm glow, etc. But, I realize that it is the only type of lamp to illuminate a large section of subway.
Why can't we simply COMBINE the old with the new?
Agreed, let today's desginers, engineers, crafters, etc. have a chance. But not at the total expense of destrying everything that was simply because of progress. Compromise.
Not exactly. I maintain that the bare lamps (subject matter of this post) in some of the IND concourses can be maintained, while augmented with the newer, floursecent lamps.
Then you would have to maintain two things. It makes much more economic sense to settle on one system. Not to mention that one of the reasons of the fluorescent lights was to save costs. Not removing them means they still have to be maintained, nothing is saved.
Let me make one thing clear, I am not one of these zealots, crazed and determined not to allow progress! Far from it! Example: Signal replacement on the West End Line: About time, long overdue. Painting of el structures: Welcomed! I can give more examples.
Well, all of those things aren't big changes. The West End line uses the same signals as it did before, just newer. The els were painted before, new paint is just something that is done on and on.
However I'm not saying that you are a total luddite for wanting to keep those lights.
[Bad things about fluorescent lights]
Why can't we simply COMBINE the old with the new?
However by putting in the fluorescent lights, they would cause the same problems. They would overshadow the incandescents and would not save the money that could be used in the most important function of the subway: Moving People Rapidly Through New York.
Agreed, let today's desginers, engineers, crafters, etc. have a chance. But not at the total expense of destrying everything that was simply because of progress. Compromise.
There is compromise. We still use the letter system, we still keep the same tile in most stations, often even replacing it with lookalike tile. The light bulbs were not an interesting aspect of the IND.
Wherever you go, you'll find people with an adoration of everything that there is, simple or complex. There is no reason we have to keep everything from the past just to satisfy those people.
Those incandescent bulbs are usually retained for backup lighting,
at least on the platforms, in strings-o-five off the third rail
with a transfer relay.
Of course, how often are they tested?
They don't fail if they're not used, barring outside factors such as moisture.
-Hank
and vandalism. When one breaks, four more go dark.
Newer installations have these emergency lights as part of the main light fixture. In transverse mount installations you will notice a small section with a diffuser cover- these hold the incandescent bulbs for the emergency lighting. In stations with longitudinal layout, they are located in between sections of fluorescent lighting but some bulbs have been stolen, borken or diffuse covers missign or all three.
Monday night i was at WTC and the emergency lights were on-- the main lights were partially out (yes- it was reported)
Well, they ARE tearing down the 1970s tile and recreating/rehabilitating the original stuff at the Broadway BMT local stations....the old is new again.
Why don't we put up some faux original IND panel tile at 34th Street-6th Avenue? When they tore the two-told yellow/gold tile down it broke my heart! The person in charge of it today would not have allowed it; that is why you have rehabs like Chambers, 14th/8th, 207th and 7th Avenue.
wayne
You have IND-style tile at every other station on the 6th Avenue line.
Nearly everyone you would speak to would tell you that Herald Square is one of the nicest stations in the city. They took something humdrum and common and made it beautiful and unique.
Agreed. It's nice to see the nothing-but-IND thing broken every so often. 34th is one station that was probably improved. In fact, today's Herald Square IND level kind of has a style that is comparable to the BMT level.
By contrast the 5th Ave/53rd St. station is uglier than its original tile, though it wouldn't be so bad if there were better care taken of it. 179th St, however, is beyond help. Whoever thought of that blue and orange chain-link tile must have been blind! THAT one I'd replace with the original (must have been purple) IND tile. However, I would keep the superhero cutouts on the mezanine, for their sheer originality.
:-) Andrew
The stripes at 179th made sense until 1988, then they should have changed it to orange and yellow, and in 1992, just orange.
But I must agree that the original IND tile is better here. But that doesn't mean that that's what should be done. If the tile is ever replaced, something a lot nicer should be done.
And while were talking about Hillside Avenue, why is it that in the 1960 proposed expansion, they wanted to extend the J (or QJ as it was) under Archer and Jamaica Avenues to Hollis? Isn't the Hillside Avenue line a far superior choice? The J/Z should be extended to Merrick Blvd to create a full replacement for the old Jamaica El.
>>Built in the era of art-deco, the IND brought the subway to new heights of bathroomlikeness<<
Is it any wonder people use the stations for just that purpose!
Anyway, I aggree that better lighting is a good thing. I'm all for preservation, but really there's no reason to keep doing something just because they did it to cut corners sixty-five years ago during the Great Depression.
:-) Andrew
Sorry, style takes a back seat to safety. And the dimly lit subway stations most definately need a lighting upgrade. And those fixtures are just sockets. There's nothing special about them.
-Hank
Exactly why I indicated to upgrade while maintaining the current form.
"Bare Light bulbs"
I think there also dead light bulbs too in the Subway. And It's not to blame by the Sorpanos. The people that changes light bulbs are the one's to blame when putting dead light bulbs.
Dominick Bermudez.
??? What does a fictional cable series have to do with burnt out light bulbs?
What the hell are you talkiing about, and what does a TV series have to do with it?
-Hank
Curiosity moment ... are the sockets on those IND bare bulbs STILL threaded the wrong way? Back during the depression, the light bulbs had threaded sockets that you had to UNscrew clockwise and install counterclockwise - the logic being that if you couldn't use them at home, there'd be no point in stealing them ...
Inquiring mimes knead to no ...
Not sure about station lights. IIRC the emergency lights on the R-1/9s had left-handed threads.
Even the IRT had the wrong-threaded lamps - theft of light bulbs was quite a problem way back when. But they were everywhere.
I also like the new flourescent lighting as well. It also looks better in the tunnels. The white light emitted by older style tube flourescents may seem more natural, but it's kinda cold and sterile.
And the new flourescents seem to last longer. I bought a few over a year ago and they still work wonderfully, without the darkening at the
ends like on the tubes.
With flourescents, ballasts also wear out. Light bulbs don't need ballasts.
While it’s true that eventually ballasts wear out, these days, they’re mostly solid-state, rather than the big humming transformers. (Fluorescent lighting control has improved enormously).
Reasons to prefer fluorescent lighting:
1. You get a lot more light for the buck and a lot less heat. This translates into lower power bills and less AC (or cooler on the platforms in stations that don’t have AC.
2. Bulbs last a lot longer, so that they’re much more likely to be working.
The only reason not to like fluoresscent lighting is that the color rendition is still terrible, though better than it used to be.
The other complaint about flourescent lighting is that the 60 cps flicker can be annoying sometimes.
True, but that’s the beauty of the new electronic ballasts: they actually are static invertors, generating high frequency AC, which makes the tubes strike more easily and removes the flicker (as I have been told).
Only dying tubes flicker.
-Hank
Ballasts for dry locations last years in constant use. Heavy-duty ballasts (for wet/cold locations) will last 3-5 years in normal use. But most of what causes a ballast to fail is being turned on and off; the constant heating and cooling cycles are what causes the breakdown of the tar in the ballast. Rest assured, the ballasts the TA is using are both heavy duty and will last quite some time, and will ultimately cost less in the long run.
-Hank
I disagree. The cost to replace one ballast is many times the cost to replace one light bulb. Especially a hi-voltage heavy duty ballast as you state.
However more bulbs are needed to provide the same light that the lights attached to one ballast provide.
And the bulbs may be cheaper, but they have to be changed more often.
But you replace them significatly less often, barring outside influences. I've replaced ballasts, I've installed flourenscent fixtures, and I know what the signs of failure are when it comes to such things, and their lifespan. In the time you replace all the incandescent bulbs in a station, you'll have to replace MAYBE one ballast, and unless broken, no flourescent bulbs.
-Hank
I always wondered why they didn't go with flourecent right from the start on the IND. Weren't flourescent lights around in the 30s ??
Peace,
ANDEE
They DID have them, they were expensive as all getout at the time but I suspect the primary reason why they weren't used was the 25 cycle AC power in use at the time. Back then even the incandescents flickered plenty on the platforms and passageways, it'd probably have been epileptic torture if they used fluorescents at the time.
Yeah, I also did a little research my self and came up with this tidbit:
>>>
Flourescent lamps:
The low pressure mercury arc lamp of Peter Cooper Hewitt is the very direct parent of today's modern flourescent lights. It was found that these low pressure arc lamps would put out large amounts of ultra-violet light. Folks then figured that if they coated the inside of the light bulb with a flourescent chemical (one that absorbed UV light and re-radiated that energy as visible light) they could make an efficient light source. Early flourescent lamps used beryllium in their flourescent material, creating a horrible toxic waste situation (beryllium is hideiously toxic to the lungs when inhaled). But later this was replaced with safter flourescent chemicals. Combined with modern electronic technology, the latest flourescent lamps are as much as 40% efficient in turning electrical energy into light. However, they can't be made to produce a bright point source of light that can be focused into a nice beam.<<<
Maybe they were concerned about the beryllium in the event of breakage.
Peace,
ANDEE
There are some early flourescent lamps still in use at one of my friends house in a basement stairwell which have a little recessed screw that you turn to face the correct engraved 60 or 25 mark for the line frequency power that is being used. Those lamps have been set to 60 since the mid 1950s.
Wowsers ... wonder where he got that? :)
I mean considering that only electric traction used 25 Hz as its primary source before rectifying it ...
I hope you're up for a bit of a history lesson. These kinds of fixtures with a selector for 25/60 cps operation lasted for quite a long time but there aren't many left in useany more due to age, but there was a very valid reason for having them.
As you noted, companies useing electrical traction equipment that ran off of direct current often used 25 cps AC line power on the "in" side of substations before it got rectified.
In the last two decades of 19th century electricity's main uses in Toronto (since this is where those flourescent lamp fixtures are located): Street lighting by means of carbon arc lamps, incadescent lighting in general and, of course, streetcars hence the traction use for 25 cps AC.
The earliest generating plants in Toronto that supplied the street lights and private customers were outfitted with equipment to produce electricity at 25 cycless per second as that was more or less the standard at the time. The Toronto Electric Light Company built its later plants to conform to that standard, including their huge plant at Niagra Falls which supplied electricity to Toronto for the Toronto Electric Light Company's retail use and for the Toronto Railway Company's streetcar substations (both the TRC and the Tor. Elect. Light Co. both owned by the same bunch of people including Sir Henry Pellat).
This early start at an electricity network in southern Ontario arising from the construction of the Niagra Falls plant and the transmission network to bring its electricity to Toronto was the forrunner of the grid in southern Ontario and set the 25 cps standad for it. However, most of the remainder of the province not included in the southern Ontario network was built on a patchwork of small 60 and 25 cps networks and plants that weren't connected.
When the private utilities were consolidated into a public utility that eventually became Ontario Hydro, everything up north was that didn't already was converted to operate on 60 cps. Toronto was the last place to be converted to 60 cps in the late 1950s in the gradual conversion program that was started in the late 1940s to make all of Ontario conform with one standard for electricity. I'd love to know how they retrofitted all the existing power plants with 25 cps equipment, especially the gigantic ones that were built at Niagra Falls...
For a long time, untill the very late 1950s, most appliances destined for the Ontario market that were sensitive to the AC line frequency, including those floursecent light fixtures, had some form of adjustment like the screw on those fixtures to select between 60 cps for everywhere else and 25 cps for what at one time was most of southern Ontario. I actually have several antique fans from the 1920s that probably wouldn't run now because there's no selection for 60 cps and the specifications on the back call for 120v at 25 cps.
-Robert King
Wowsers ... thanks for all that. I had never heard of 25 Hz being distributed beyond electric traction, usually from plants designed specifically to service this and only this. But it would make sense to try to sell the excess current as well in earlier times for a better economy of scale.
And I would imagine that it might be possible to get the old fans to run *IF* the proper value of capacitor were determined and available to do so for the "start" and "run" windings. The lower frequencies were used in the early days because it was safer and more reliable to spin at a lower speed. At the 3600 RPM required for 60 Hz, vibration and flying chunks of metal were far more significant a problem than at the lower speeds.
And don't feel bad - a lot of folks here don't realize that Edison generated DC ... now there's something that would roast and toast most appliances. In fact up until the 1960's in NYC, there were a number of locations on the lower east side of Manhattan that were served by DC service only. I remember having to turn the plug around on radios to make them work.
I'm not sure what the reason for 25cy was, other than an
arbitrary choice. At higher frequencies, skin effect loss
is more, but the transformers can be made a little lighter.
The rotation of an induction motor, synchronous motor or
alternator is f*60/p, where f is the line frequency and p
is the number of pole pairs. For the common household 2-pole
induction motor it's 3600 rpm for a 60cy line. Perhaps
one advantage of raising the line frequency was increased
rpms of these small motors. AC generators (alternators) typically
spin much slower and are simply wound with a lot of pole pairs.
Manhattan still has a handful of DC customers!
The lower frequency was a lot easier on rotating metal in generators and that was the reason back then since Tesla was quite happy with 25 Hz as being a lot easier on the bearings and lower in vibration and wear. As the art of cutting round metal improved with time, 60 Hertz became as easy to do as 25 ... this is also one of the reasons why Europe quit while they were ahead and adopted 50 Hz ... but yes, as you go higher in frequency, the transformers got easier to handle but the real limiting factor back then was the huge rotating metal and trying to keep it from shaking itself apart. On the powerhouse side of the equation, the lower speeds were easier on the big chunks of iron and that was the reason. I've been told this repeatedly by the turbine guys up in Schenectady and at 60 Hz operation, there are several speeds on the way to 60 Hz generation where the bearings get a good workout as the generator comes up to "speed" ...
But old Nikolai had the right answer all along. DC distribution was murder on I2R (square of current * resistance) and got prohibitively expensive as distance from the rotating slab to the customer increased. Of course Edison would have none of that and insisted for years until Westinghouse whooped his arse that DC was better. :)
Certainly for the same winding (number of poles in the stator)
the 25cy requires fewer rpms. But the same rpms can be
used for 60cy by having more poles in the winding.
For example, according to the "IRT book", the text of which
I believe is available on this site, the original IRT powerhouse employed 25cy 11kV alternators which rotated at 75 rpm and
had 40 poles, or 20 pole pairs:
rpm=60*f/p
To make this output 60cy at the same rpms would require a
rewind for 48 pole pairs. Perhaps this was a little too much.
Of course the Tesla / Westinghouse system was light years ahead
of Edison and his primitive 3-wire DC system. Edison, it seems,
did not understand AC or electromagnetism very well and he launched
a FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) campaign to stall its
introduction. Ironically, now in the solid-state age, it is
becoming possible to do high-voltage DC distribution and use
solid-state power converters instead of simple transformers.
The effective resistance of distribution wire is less at DC than
at 25 or 60 Hz because of skin effect. Perhaps DC will make a
comeback?
Heh. You must work at GE power systems. Bustini bustini! The big issue of course with distance distribution is getting up to enough voltage so that the "eye-square-are" losses are at a minimum and that's what blew Edison's (ahem) theories to crap in a shopping cart. You needed very high voltages to be efficient over distance with resistance losses in the transmission lines and Tesla had him by the short hairs there. :)
Of course, with enough commutator segments, the phasing problems had an advantage towards Edison but Edison (as proved by his progeny GE) was a bunch of cheap "baskets" (to avoid an expletive deleted) and probably had only two commutator segments and thus the smoke when he tried to demo to the adminiswigs when he lit up a portion of lower Manhattan that fateful night) ...
But yeah, DC works just fine on my little desktop railroad here, but I'd hate to think of what wheeling it to NYC would do to my profitability. Heh.
Ironically, now in the solid-state age, it is becoming possible to do high-voltage DC distribution and use solid-state power converters instead of simple transformers. The effective resistance of distribution wire is less at DC than at 25 or 60 Hz because of skin effect. Perhaps DC will make a comeback?
There have been demonstrations of 750KV DC distribution in Europe for more than 30 years. Is it skin effect losses or inductive losses?
Believe it or not, the greatest losses are earth return ... when the soil conditions are just right, you have what is called "neutral to earth voltage" (otherwise known as "stray voltage") which can make life unhappy for farm animals ... but skin effect loses some as does plain air leakage when it gets a bit moist. Funny things happen at those voltages ...
Inductance is important too, but at line frequencies of 25 or 60
cy, the inductive reactance per foot (of a single non-ferrous
conductor in open air) is pretty small compared with the resistance.
Inductance doesn't cause real power loss, as you know, but it does
cause voltage drop.
Skin effect is important even at low frequencies. I'll see if
I have a reference somewhere as to what by what % the effective
cross-sectional area of a copper conductor is reduced at 60 Hz.
Skin effect raises the effective R, real resistance, per foot
and thus contributes to real power loss.
The skin depth for copper at 20oC is
6.62/f½ cm, where f is the frequency in Hz.
This reduces to 0.85 cm or 0.34 in at 60 Hz.
The ratio of the current density at depth z to the current density at the skin is given by: exp(-z/d), where d is the skin depth.
This number is much larger than the diamaters of the individual strands for a power cable. This means that while the skin effect is measurable, it is not the major problem it is at radio frequencies.
This number is much larger than the diamaters of the individual strands for a power cable. This means that while
the skin effect is measurable, it is not the major problem it is at radio frequencies.
Skin effect worsens with increasing wire diameter. For 500MCM
cable, the effective resistance at 60cy is only 2% greater than
at DC, but for 1000MCM, that rises to 13%, hardly insignificant.
Modern high-tension lines are hollow, minimizing skin effect,
but I suspect that before the development of such cable, skin
effect was one deterrent to operating at higher line frequencies.
[These data from the Westinghouse Transmission Systems Reference
Book]
[P.S. The data given are for stranded hard-drawn copper cable.
When considering stranded cable, it is not correct to consider
the skin effect of each strand alone. That method would only
work if the strands were not touching each other and in fact
were separated from each other]
What's skin effect?
As for Selkirk: You use the ^ (caret, shift+6) symbol for exponents, so you would type I^2R and wouldn't have to explain yourself.
Or you can use HTML I2R.
Thanks for the tip on the 2 trick ... I was more concerned that "eye square R" would have blown past a lot of folks ... skin effect happens in wire with alternating current (DC will tend to flow through the center of the wire by comparison) where the alternating current tends to have a higher current flow on the outer portion of the wire than the center and this increases with frequency. For radio frequencies, you might as well use tubular conductors since there's next to zero current flow in the center of the wire. At 60 Hz, this effect is relatively negligable but a definite factor when you're trying to push a lot of electrons ...
I'm sure some of the turbine-heads around here can go into more details than I have time for but that's the gyst of the sitch-e-ation.
it'd probably have been epileptic torture if they used fluorescents at the time.
Nah, it would have been like a strobe light.
INDisco!
INDisco Stu doesn't advertise.
Safety and economy are the two reasons the station lighting is being converted to discharge type lighting (Fluorescent, mercury Vapor, Sodium Vapor).
the old incadescent lights were wired in series and if one bulb burned out (or today they steal or break the bulbs) then a whole set of lights would be out. Modern lighting design is done in Parallel.
Fluorescent lights also run cooler and are cheaper to operate and give off more light. I have seen various numbers but a 40 watt tube gives off as much light as a 150-200 watt incandescent bulb and lasts much longer. Of course you only pay for 40 watts x time of usage instead of 150 watts x time of usage.
I am sure our engineering people will elaborate on my comments and I ask them to jump right in!
I noticed on the uptown F platform at 23 St, the ceiling retains its incandescent lighting in addition to flourescent lights; however, only every second bulb was lit. Strange coincidence, or would that be how they are wired: two sets of lights, wired in series, and alternating; i.e., if one goes out, you still have half your light, and it's distributed evenly?
If those lights are on at the same time as the regular
lights, then the power failure relay or fuse has failed.
Did you ever notice a box about 2'x1'x6" hanging from the
protection board of the third rail in the station? A wire
is clamped to the base of the third rail and runs into the
box. The box contains a fuse, then another wire comes out and
enters a rigid conduit junction box. Usually another wire enters
the junction box and is clamped to the negative return rail.
Those two wires run to the lighting distribution room, some nice
a*****os filled closet in the station somewhere, and there is
a relay powered by the same AC power source as the station lights.
If that power goes off, the relay drops out and connects the 600VDC
to the emergency lights. These lights are wired "skip-stop"
so that if one blows or breaks, it doesn't take out all the
lighting in the small area. It's just like the light wiring on
a trolley car or a Lo-V.
So in the example given, not only is the relay bad; so is one of the bulbs (or some other part) in one of the two emergency light circuits. Wonderful maintenance.
[It seems that I am the only person here who COMMENDS this action.
The IND is boring, its lighting is just as boring and are just bare light bulbs hanging from the ceiling. It's not like those lights do a good job either. This is a GREAT development, and a sign of progress.]
Not to mention of inefficiency!
Pedro the super would have replaced those bulbs with fluorescents 40 years ago, because he knows it lowers costs.
But the MTA? (sigh)
I am curious, are you stereotyping an ethnic group by calling a Super "Pedro"?
[I am curious, are you stereotyping an ethnic group by calling a Super "Pedro"?]
I hope not -- gave it some thought before I posted this, because I was concerned that some people might have that impression. But Pedro was the name of an actual super of mine.
My supers from late boyhood run, IIRC, Hispanic, African-American, Russian (a music teacher by profession), "White," Hispanic, Asian, and now Russian again. And I'm part Hispanic myself.
It's possible to be too sensitive about these things . . .
I have noticed that some tunnel lights have gone to the new screw-in flurescent bulbs. They come in a large variety. They also claim to give the same light at a fraction of the wattage.
Could not the globe type bulb with the "Warm" light be used?
I feel both factions could be appeased while maintaining the original fixtures but increasing the candle power!
Perhaps there are other stations that could benifit from this compromise? The softer light of the "warm" light would maintain the original beauty of the incandesant lamp.
avid
The stations of Playland and Holland have had the LIRR lights deactivated (but the socket w/reflector are still there) and new fluorescent ones have been put in their place for the under-canopy sections. For the open air sections they put up new lampposts which have an updated LIRR station feeling to them, and they did not remove the LIRR original lampposts.
In this case I support the change because those stops saw new bulbs about once a year, and the newer lighting preserves that not-a-subway feeling while improving safety. Plus, they left the old posts there, I know I would have been outraged had they removed them (then again they are part of the fence). Other than the A/S stations the only place to find this style of lamppost is at the abandoned Woodhaven station, and only one post still looks decent.
Were these the last stations to get fluorescent platform lighting?
No. You might want to take a trip on the 2 to that station between Bx Pk E. and Allerton Ave. Also Atlantic on the L.
Atlantic on the L is getting sodium lights on the Canarise bound platform. All L line stations without discharge lights( ie- incandescent lights)will get fluorescent, and/or sodium.
Here is a list of all stations with incandescent lights on the platform:
Pelham parkway (White Plains Line)
Buhre and Middletown (Pelham Line)
Before you mention Eaatern Parkway/Broadway Junction- they are getting fluorescent and SOdium at this time.
Oh, POOH; I like my IND mezzanines Incandescent. Doesn't have to be dim; just incandescent. Why don't they use light capsules or compact flourescents instead? They won't have to change them very often.
wayne
An interesting tidbit from Washington ... today the Supreme Court ruled that a Ku Klux Klan chapter can erect a "adopt-a-highway" sign along I-55 in Missouri. It may be freedom of speech, but somehow I suspect that the Founding Fathers didn't quite have this sort of thing in mind when they drew up the Bill of Rights.
Anyway, the sign's obviously going to be trashed soon after it's erected. Now if the person doing the trashing gets caught in the act, no doubt we'll have another interesting freedom of speech case.
Before this thread gets out of control, keep in mind that it is totally off topic for this forum since I do not see anything that would be "rail or rapid transit" related in its content. I'm not going to delete it but I expect that those who follow up will read their words two or four or ten times before they click Post...
Before this thread gets out of control, keep in mind that it is totally off topic for this forum since I do not see anything that would be "rail or rapid transit" related in its content. I'm not going to delete it but I expect that those who follow up will read their words two or four or ten times before they click Post...
I see what you mean, but I figured that something road-related was close enough. Anyway, I doubt there'll be much flaming over this issue. People may disagree on the extent of free speech, but certainly no one would think that the sign is anything but ridiculous.
Well normally it is close enough that I wouldn't say anything but based on prior experience on such matters--- plus, the subject line didn't try very hard to remain subtle--- I thought it best to just remind people what proper etiquette is....
Normally I wouldn't have even "answered the phone" but with Peter & Dave on the thread I thought I would take a peek.
Mr t__:^)
"but certainly no one would think that the sign is anything but ridiculous."
The content of the sign is ridiculous but the KKK's right to put it up isn't. I find the KKK to be offensive but if you infringe upon their right to free speech it is the start of a slippery slope.
Even if infringing on their right to put up a sign weren't a slippery slope it would still be wrong.
It is a slippery slope anyway, have you noticed how "I find that offensive" is subtly becoming code for "end discussion now"? People should be able to talk about things that offend them.
The Klan is a pretty sensitive subject due to their horrific history. But the case Peter mentions is definitely not off topic. Political speech in connection with transportation or transit is extremely important. The issue comes up when someone wants to place a controversial advertisement on the subway or the side of a bus (remember New York magazine's Giuliani ad?). I think there might have been litigation early in the 1990's claiming the right to beg on public transit as a form of political speech.
Anywho, this area of discussion may be "too hot to handle" but it most definitely is not off topic.
Stop talking about the KKK!! This is Subtalk not Gossip Talk!! LOL!!
Dominick Bermudez.
Actually it's relevant, it relates to highways which are a transportation topic...don't be afraid of racial issues
Uh, well, the board header refers specifically to rail and rapid transit. It doesn't say anything about roads or transportation in general although for the most part, lots of things slide by. The KKK -and- roads is most definitely off topic.
Bravo.
A. Transit issues seem to be able to generate all the discussion we could want. With NY perhaps passing 8 million in the new census, transit will no doubt get even hotter locally (and in booming cities nationally).
B. There hasn't been a demonstrated ability here to discuss racial and ethnic issues with sensitivity and intelligence.
so true, so true...
Except for this post I'm staying off this topic like it was a hot poker. The KKK? Are we serious?
What does the KKK have to do with gossip?
I say, as long as they mind their own business and just go there to clean up the highway, I think they should be left alone. After all, if they're on the side of a highway cleaning up garbage, they are making themselves usefull rather than making spectacles of themselves in front of government buildings.
"It may be freedom of speech, but somehow I suspect that the Founding Fathers didn't quite have this sort of thing in mind when they drew up the Bill of Rights."
I don't think the founding father thought that leaders would destroy America by funneling billions of dollars of income tax dollars into a gift to the oil and car companies if the federal government thought it was needed to build an interstate highway system it should have been funded 100% by tolls. Highway are far more subsidized than transit systems. And it was the building of the interstate highway system combined with forced bussing 20 years later that destroyed the cites by forcing the middle class out.
I agree with everything you said except for your last comment. How did the highway system force the middle class out of the cities? If anything, it was the voluntary movement of the middle class that forced the government to build highways. For example, the LIE followed the middle class out to Nassau and then to Suffolk.
The Northern and Southern State brought in the first wave. Had those highways not been free, they would have thought twice.
I'm not sure but I think that Levittown preceded the Southern State parkway. In any event, the SSP & the NSP were built by Robert Moses and were not part of the federal interstate highway program.
That's highly unlikely, since the parkways were built in the 1920s. There is no way Levittown was built in the 1920s.
Levittown was built after World War II - construction started in 1947. Here are a couple of sites on the subject:
Levittown: Documents of an Ideal American Suburb
Levittown at Fifty
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ah! Levittown, New York. My hometown. I live in Queens now, and probably always will, but my heart belongs to the place where Igrew up. But in terms of public transit, not so good. Well, I wasn't too far from the N49 and N50 busses, which take you to the Hicksville LIRR (one of the best LIRR stations there is.) and the JB50 to Jones Beach. I just hope MTA-LI Bus survives Nassau's budget crisis.
I know Levittown ain't perfect, but it's where I grew up. Can't help it.
:-) Andrew
Is Levittown a separate city or is it part of another community? I've never known for sure. I spent a few weeks in the summer of 1950, including the July 4th holiday, there with my uncle George and aunt Millie. We used to barbeque all the time and the evenings were lovely. There was a community center where my younger brother learned to swim that summer. I didn't until years later. We used to shop at the Sunrise Food Exchange (what a memory eh?) I remember listening to the Giants-Dodgers doubleheader that day in the patio. The Bums blew a 4-1 lead and lost the first game 5-4, but came back to win the second 5-3. That summer was a fond memory for me.
Levittown is a "hamlet", which is what New York State calls an unincorporated community. It is part of the Town of Hempstead (in NYS, townships are called "towns"), but it has its own zip code (11756), and two school districts, and certainly has its own community identity.
:-) Andrew
You're right about hamlets. They have no legal existence. Imagine my surprise on learning that New City, the county seat of Rockland County, was not only not a city in the legal sense but was not even an incorporated Village or a Town. BTW, IIRC, there are both towns and townships in NYS. For example, IIRC, all of Nassau County consists of three townships; but there are several towns in the County. Or do I have that backwards.
No. Townships in New York State are called "Towns". Thus Hempstead, North Hempstead, and Oyster Bay are Towns, depsite the fact that all of them are far too big to be called such in practical definitions.
The communities in Nassau County (and elsewhere in New York State) which are popularly called twons are either unincorporated Hamlets (Levittown, East Meadow, Hicksville) incoroprated Villages (Rockville Centre, Hempstead village, Brookville) which are local municipalities with some autonomy from the towns they are located in (some, such as Old Westbury, straddle the border between two or more towns) but are still part of the town and depend on them for some services, and Cities (Glen Cove, Long Beach), which are not part of any town at all, though they may be geographically surrounded by towns.
What is odd is that all of the towns in Nassau and some in Suffolk are much, much larger than the state average. Brookhaven is easily large enough to be a county---in fact it is larger than several of NYS counties, including Nassau and also larger than all five boroughs of NYC put together.
:-) Andrew
Is there a map anywhere that shows the boundaries of these towns?
"Is there a map anywhere that shows the boundaries of these towns? "
For the townships, yes. Just about any detailed map will do. For the unincorporated villages and hamlets, I've never seen one. I grew up in Oceanside, and I have never once seen a map which could accurately denote the boundary between Baldwin and Oceanside (two unincorporated villages). It's pretty much something which is known only to those who live right along it.
Hagstrom's will have zip code and school district boundaries -- but you can live in Lakeview (unincorporated) and get your mail delivered from either the Rockville Centre (incorporated) or West Hempstead unincorporated) post offices depending where in Lakeview you live.
Students from Baldwin attend either Baldwin or Oceanside schools. Baldwin schools include not only students from Baldwin, but also Freeport (incorporated) and Roosevelt (unincorporated) -- each of which have their own school districts as well. Part of the campus of Baldwin High School is in Freeport. Part of the campus of Freeport High School is in (you guessed it) Baldwin.
Election districts don't help either. I now live in Rockville Centre. My neighbors across the street are in one state assembly district, I'm in another and 3 doors down on my side of the street starts a third.
Just to make this transit related, the East Rockaway LIRR station is in Oceanside. The Island Park station is in Barnum Island. The Stewart Manor station is in Garden City.
If you're really looking for a challenge, get copies of the maps for the local Schoool, Post Office, Sanitation, Fire, Sewer and Water districts and put something together from all those sources combined.
There may be census maps which sort out this mess. Prior to the 1980 census, the population was never broken out for the unincorporated villages. Starting with the '80 census, official totals were posted for the unincorporateds (at least some of the bigger ones). Whether or not their boundaries had pinpoint accuracy, I don't know.
CG
Yes, the Southern State and Wantagh Parkways did predate Levittown; they were built through the area in the twenties and thirties. The original blackboard-style exit signs naturally did not mention it; the exit off the Wantagh for eastbound Hempstead Turnpike, which puts you right through what passes for the heart of Levittown, designated Farmingdale, several miles east, as the control city.
In the eighties, the parkways got the standard green NYSDOT exit signs, so Levittown got star billing for Exit 28N, Wantagh Avenue north, of the Southern State, and played second fiddle to Farmingdale("LEVITTOWN EXIT 4E") at the aforementioned Wantagh Parkway exit.
In the past decade, housing values in Levittown are said to have sharply declined. One reason often sited is thatn people don't want to move there because there's no LIRR station This forces people to make long drives or bus rides to the heavily overcrowded Hicksville and Wantagh stations.
What's sad is that if the LIRR Central Branch trackage hadn't been torn up right around the time Levittown was starting (unsure of dates; Bob Anderson's excellent LIRR history site will provide much more detail), there would have been service right through the northern part. The ROW is very visible in the street pattern.
This would have provided an extra east-west branch through eastern Nassau, relieving congestion of the Main and Babylon branches. Trains to Ronkonkoma could have been routed over the Hempstead branch from Floral Park to Garden City and continued due east through northern East Meadow and Levittown directly into the split between Bethpage and Farmingdale stations.
There would have been less traffic on the main line from New Hyde Park to Hicksville, which would benefit Port Jeff and Oyster Bay riders- not to mention motorists in NHP and Mineola, where the gates would have been going down somewhat less. Plus, the horrible parking and platform congestion at Hicksville and Wantagh might be relieved.
As to whether the LIRR would have made ultimately the area better or worse is open to conjecture. You've got areas considered wealthy (Great Neck, Plandome, Garden City, Cedarhurst, Syosset, Cold Spring Harbor) and impoverished (Hempstead, Freeport, Bay Shore, Wyandanch, Brentwood, Bellport, Mastic) that have service. Most communities without LIRR service are considered middle-class (Franklin Square, East Meadow, Plainview, Commack, Hauppauge), but then you've got Elmont, Uniondale, Roosevelt and (of late) Deer Park and Selden, which are now regarded as heavily downscale.
It's hard to really draw any conclusion as to what effect LIRR service has on a community.
The LIRR ROW is walking distance from from my parents' house (where I grew up.) It's where the power lines go.
:-) Andrew
In the past decade, housing values in Levittown are said to have sharply declined. One reason often sited is thatn people don't want to move there because there's no LIRR station This forces people to make long drives or bus rides to the heavily overcrowded Hicksville and Wantagh stations.
Property values in Levittown have held up quite well. While commuting on the LIRR isn't easy, Levittown attracts a large number of tradesmen, who work locally or at least not in Manhattan and hence aren't concerned with the LIRR.
What's sad is that if the LIRR Central Branch trackage hadn't been torn up right around the time Levittown was starting (unsure of dates; Bob Anderson's excellent LIRR history site will provide much more detail), there would have been service right through the northern part. The ROW is very visible in the street pattern.
The last use of the trackage through what's now Levittown was for the delivery of construction materials during the town's development. I am surprised that the line wasn't kept in passenger service. At the time, Long Island's job base was a lot smaller than it is today, even with the aircraft factories in full operation, and therefore a higher percentage of residents in Levittown (and elsewhere) commuted to Manhattan than is the case today. Of course, it surely was a lot easier to park at Hicksville or Wantagh back then.
Most communities without LIRR service are considered middle-class (Franklin Square, East Meadow, Plainview, Commack, Hauppauge), but then you've got Elmont, Uniondale, Roosevelt and (of late) Deer Park and Selden, which are now regarded as heavily downscale.
I wouldn't characterize Selden as downscale. It seems to be a solidly middle-class community. Coram, just to its east (and similarly without LIRR service), is rather run-down, however.
I also had thought that Deer Park was a stable place too.
I remember Farmingville and Medford (112 and north of the LIE) being nice areas, I think I went to a small minuture golf course there back in the late 80s.
When I was there last year, it looked kinda run down. Lots of closed stores. Even the WBLI studios on route 112 are gone, now they are located in Babylon (TX is still on Bald Hill).
I think electrification of the Ronkonkoma line east of Ronkonkoma, to Medford would have helped the area. I don't think the area is too hot because it is too long of a commute.
I remember Farmingville and Medford (112 and north of the LIE) being nice areas, I think I went to a small minuture golf course there back in the late 80s.
When I was there last year, it looked kinda run down. Lots of closed stores. Even the WBLI studios on route 112 are gone, now they are located in Babylon (TX is still on Bald Hill).
I think electrification of the Ronkonkoma line east of Ronkonkoma, to Medford would have helped the area. I don't think the area is too hot because it is too long of a commute.
I live in Medford not too far from 112. The area is definitely on the upswing with new commercial construction. A huge site has been cleared on the SW corner of 112 and Horseblock Road, just north of the Expressway, for a Lowe's home center (the first one on Long Island, IIRC). The foundation has been staked out and I believe some concrete has been poured, although the weather has interrupted the pour. Farther north on 112, a big recreational site (minigolf, driving range, race track and batting cages) is being developed. Part of it opened last summer and the rest should be completed in a few months. A medium-sized commercial building is under construction just north of there, I don't know what exactly it'll be, and some site clearance has just begun on some land adjoining the Brookhaven town offices. Finally, a couple of long-vacant rundown buildings have been removed.
As far as commuting from Medford is concerned, it's a bit of a drag, but not impossible. I usually get the Greenport train to Ronkonkoma. Medford to Ronkonkoma is less than a ten-minute run. The main disadvantage with that arrangement is the fact that there's only one train in the morning, and the last train from Penn leaves at 5:41 pm. I suppose many people from the area simply drive to Ronkonkoma, but I just cannot deal with that Hell-hole. Another alternative is to drive to Patchogue. It's only about a ten-minute drive from the center of Medford and the diesel trains on the Montauk line are vastly better than the electric junk at Ronkonkoma - and far less crowded. Whatever the situation, Medford's relative remoteness from the city hasn't been much of a disadvantage, as there's quite a bit of residential construction in progress.
I'm glad to see it's doing better. I'd like to get out to that area on my own, but it would be hard with mass transit.
One day when spring finally comes I'll probably take the LIRR Port Jeff branch to St.James. I miss the Smith Haven mall (it's one of my favorite malls). How much of a walk from St.James station to Smith Haven? Doesn't look much more than a mile on my map, so it's probably doable.
It's too bad the Greenport line has such poor service. One thing I never figured out is why the LIRR didn't expand service and put a stop by Tanger Outlet center (doesn't it run right by there?).
Instead of city residents and those from Nassau driving, they could simply take the train.
Last time I was at Tanger was awhile ago. Back when I lived in N.Wantagh. We went with Sunrise Highway to route 51 through Riverhead. Liked it alot better than taking the LIE, and man does it get DARK out there at night. Route 51 was pitch black.
An LIRR trip out east would be nice, but with so few trains it's kinda difficult. :-(
<< How much of a walk from St.James station to Smith Haven? Doesn't look much more than a mile on my map, so it's probably doable. >>
It's longer than a mile, probably 2 - 3 miles.
I've been on most eastern sections of the LIRR at one time or another. The Port Jefferson line is actually very pleasant as far west as Cold Spring Harbor, and is an attractive ride all the way to Port Jefferson. The Greenport route is gorgeous, though certainly sparse. Those tracks look like they they don't get more than three trains a day, and in fact they don't. It's one the MTA's few genuinely rural stretches of railroad. The Montauk line also qualifies, though it has a lot more service. But I remember it being very pleasant after Eastport or so, ESPECIALLY going into Montauk.
:-) Andrew
Just don't ride the Montauk line on a hot, humid summer day -- those duck farms are awful!!!!!
Now Coram, NY is where my wife grew up. I see it pretty frequently. It seems moderately run down. Some of the rural areas to the southeast are OK, but some of the smaller residential areas remind me of my image of the deep south.
:-) Andrew
Now Coram, NY is where my wife grew up. I see it pretty frequently. It seems moderately run down. Some of the rural areas to the southeast are OK, but some of the smaller residential areas remind me of my image of the deep south.
One of the things that contributed to Coram's semi-blighted image was that largely abandoned shopping plaza at the intersection of 25 and 112. Finally, after a couple years of talk, something's being done. At least half of the plaza has been demolished and a new Home Depot is being built in its place. Several of the long-vacant stores in the remainder of the plaza now have been rented. No one's ever going to mistake Coram for Old Westbury; as you correctly point out, some of the residential areas basically amount to exurban slums. Even so, the town should start to look better with the new Home Depot and the revitalized plaza.
The South Fork is incredibly wealthy and the town centers look like the downtowns of wealthy villages (which they are). Montauk looks like a nice seafaring place.
The North Fork looks more of the rural "general store" variety. Absolutely nothing Long Island about it. That would change if a bridge was built to New London and Rhode Island, but I don't think I want it to. A bridge to New Haven would be less environmentally sensitive anyway, and the people on Fishers Island don't want a bridge (and we don't want a bridge to Plum Island).
Did I manage to steer the conversation to bridges?
and we don't want a bridge to Plum Island
It would be too easy for those three-headed sheep to wander off.
I don't care about the Octoparrots escaping, but some of the diseases they study there are contagious diseases in swine!
Oh, and here's a picture of three of my compatriots from Plum Island:
As seen in the New York Times!
by "the rural areas to the southeast", I meant the open areas to the immediate southeast of Coram, say going down Mill Rd, NOT the Hamptons.
:-) Andrew
I didn't think you were talking about the Hamptons. I was adding the Hamptons to the discussion.
As to whether the LIRR would have made ultimately the area better or worse is open to conjecture. You've got areas considered wealthy (Great Neck, Plandome, Garden City, Cedarhurst, Syosset, Cold Spring Harbor) and impoverished (Hempstead, Freeport, Bay Shore, Wyandanch, Brentwood, Bellport, Mastic) that have service.
It's been said that one of the reasons behind the LIRR's decision to electrify the Ronkonkoma line in the 1980's was the hope that better train service would give an economic lift to the poorer communities along the line - Wyandanch, Brentwood and Central Islip. Whether electrification actually helped these areas is an open question.
Well Glen Cove seems to be in a contuing decline, electrification of the LIRR may have helped. But maybe not as much as one might think, since it's kinda roundabout. We have to go down to Mineola, then head west.
Crazy idea: extend the Port Washington branch to Glen Cove. I guess they'd have to build a bridge (and a huge one) over Hempstead Harbor and bring it into Glen Cove. That would be alot more direct, but it
like the cross LI Sound bridge it will never happen.
I used to live in Levittown and I still think it's a nice area. It is truly blue collar, and hasn't become upscale and overpriced like many other parts of Nassau county. There have been some store closings, and commuting to NYC is a problem without the LIRR. If the LIRR Central line did run through Levittown (I believe it is clearly marked by high voltage lines)it would be very different. There'd probably be more of a concentration of stores around there, and traffic patterns would be way different. I really do not know if the central line would have benefitted Levittown. Property values might have been higher, but then it wouldn't be an affordable blue collar neighborhood, probably be more expensive like Wantagh.
The Central Branch would also be able to serve the Roosevelt Field Mall and surrounding shopping area between Old Country Road, Hempstead, Garden City and Eisenhower Park.
AND a big obstacle to the line is that Eisenhower Park is in its path.
AND a big obstacle to the line is that Eisenhower Park is in its path.
The world's widest rail trail.
Levittown Could've Had the LIRR
How, it's in Pennsylvania.
Presumably you're being a weisenheimer, but we mean Levittown, NEW YORK!
:-) Andrew
Ha, ha, very funny. Interestingly, some say the Levittown in Bucks County, PA was William Levitt's sequel due to the success of his 'original' Levittown in Nassau County, NY.
PLEASE, let's not start another thread about duplicate town names.
There was also a Levittown in New Jersey, but it's now called Willingboro.
:-) Andrew
...some say the Levittown in Bucks County, PA was William Levitt's sequel due to the success of his 'original' Levittown in Nassau County, NY.
They are correct. Also Levitown, Burlington County, NJ, which subsequently changed its name to Willingboro.
..some say the Levittown in Bucks County, PA was William Levitt's sequel due to the success of his 'original' Levittown in Nassau County, NY.
They are correct. Also Levitown, Burlington County, NJ, which subsequently changed its name to Willingboro.
Isn't there also a Levittown in Puerto Rico?
Isn't there also a Levittown in Puerto Rico?
Hooda thunkit?
Yes, there is a Levittown in Puerto Rico, just west of San Juan.
Yes, there is a Levittown in Puerto Rico, just west of San Juan.
I wonder if the Tren Urbano will serve it.
The GI Bill fueled the exodus to the suburbs. To "protect" the returning (from WW II), a minimum lot size was mandated for properties whose mortgages would be backed by the GI bill. This ruled out row houses and urban residences and was a (or THE) major factor in the move to the suburbs that began in earnest in the late '40's and built up in the '50's.
The current issue of Preservation magazine (the bi-monthly journal of the National Trust for Historic Preservation has a rather lengthy cover story and some good photos dealing with Chicago's Ravenswood L and the neighborhoods it passes through. I checked the National Trust's website for an online version of the article, but had no luck. Preservation isn't a magazine you'll likely find in most newstands, but I'd still recommend getting a copy somewhere if you are able to find it. The same issue also has a two-page article about the future of Wrigley Field.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Or join the National Trust, and get the magazine every couple of months. I've been a member for nearly 25 years now (and before that borrowed my father's copy).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's a scan of the new MBTA Service Guarantee refund request card. I'm sure I'll get a chance to try it out one of these days!
And, hopefully the idea of a service guarentee will spread to the rest of the transit industry.
Wow! Imagine the LIRR trying this?
Our most excellent Web Host has just posted my Sydney, Australia overview and images. I hope you enjoy...
gmarly, or perhaps good on you.
Todd,
As a resident of Sydney, I certainly did 'enjoy' seeing our system on nycsubway.org - also see my short reference in Subtalk a few days ago (3/1) about the 75th anniversary of our electric system.
I will email you direct about a few changes to captions.
Our first tri-level car was delivered in 1964, T 4801 (now presrved). It was in the consist of some special trips for the 75th anniversary on 3/3. Perhaps we pioneered the design now in use by LIRR? I believe our contractor ComEng sold the plans to Kawasaki after a takeover and they pulled out of the LIRR contract.
Ian
Ian,
It was great fun visiting your country and rail system for a few days! Hopefully other SubTalkers will have a chance to visit as well.
Thanks for sending any corrections ... I'll forward them to our Web Site Host to incorporate.
> I will email you direct about a few changes to captions.
Email them to me not Todd (or at least, in addition to, since I'll need to make the changes)
Nice work, I should add to this archive with an Adelaide and Melbourne write up, how do i do so??
Easy... write it up however you like, take some photos, attach 'em to an email to me, and depending on the complexity, I'll get it up on the site as fast as I can...
Todd, love the pictures Reminds me of my trip down under last July. Have to dig up my videos. Too bad you did not get any from Melbourne and their trains and trams
Todd ...
Very well done! In this picture below ...
... what's above the station? Another transit line or a highway?
--Mark
I know it looks like there's something up above, but it's just a roof over the platform.
My countryman IAB will know more about this than me, but I think it's the Bradfield Freeway which runs off the Sydney Harbour Bridge, over the top of Circular Quay station and takes road traffic from the bridge to eastern Sydney and the eastern suburbs.
Thanks for the update on that! I didn't get good look at that, since I didn't have a car.
No worries!
What is interesting about Circular Quay is that until 1956 there was no station (and no Bradfield Freeway) and no rail connection between Wynyand and St James. Trains used to terminate at St James and were marshalled in a small section of tunnel beyond the platform.
Todd, Very nice group of photos thanks to you & Dave for sharing with us. I see you had a friend with you (the best way to railfan). Is he a weather man or railbuff internet acquaintance.
Mr t__:^)
Re this picture -- http://www.nycsubway.org/asia/sydney/syd186.jpg
1) The old Chicago L station now located at the Illinois Railway Museum (nee 50th Avenue from the Metropolitan L's Douglas Park Branch) has original ads on the face of each step for "Portola," some medicine purported by the ad to taste like candy. IIRC, like the indecipherable drug ads of today, the ads don't say what Portola was actually for.
2) Grace Brothers? Is that by any chance a department store? And if it is, are you being served? :^)
Well, John, I'll leave it to our Australian colleagues to answer your questions! All I can say is that I thought I had seen everything when it came to selling ad space. (Yes, I've seen ads on the inside of rest room stall doors! Talk of being a captive audience!)
Yes, Grace Brothers is a department store which was originally established in Sydney in 1895 and has since spread to other parts of Australia and is now part of the Coles Myer chain. So far as I am aware, any link between Grace Brothers here and "Are you being served" is a coincidence.
I took the E train southbound from West 4th to WTC the other day, and got the pleasure of seeing a couple of things that I had never observed before from the front car window. The first was the untracked turnoff to the future (I'm still holding out hope) Worth Street line, which I knew about, but the following puzzled me:
A couple of times along the ride, we were faced with a bright white light along the right side of the tunnel, like a signal of some sort. It was quite bright. At Canal Street, the motorman stopped the train, got out and said something to the tower about it, and it promptly turned off. Anybody know what this was about?
PPS
Probably a WD (Wheel Detector) signal
What does a WD signal do? I betray my obvious ignorance of the signalling system, perhaps....
I seem to remember the letters "WD" on the sign...
PPS
It's a special timer designed to limit speed over switches.
I think it is explained in the signal section of this
(nycsubway.org) web site
Nope. There's nothing about WD signals on this site, except in the glossary. There's nothing on them in the signals page.
Unlike Grade Timers or Station Timers that measure speed buy timing the time the train passes pervious signals, WD phyiscaly measure the turning of the wheels and will stop the train if the speed exceeds what is posted.
They are used at interlockings, a white light and flashing white light tells the operator if he is exceeding the speed. I also believe WD violations are automagicly reported to the tower and command (like they willy-b signals).
Just to elaborate a little bit:
A flashing lunar white light indicates that the train operator is operating above the posted speed limit for the WD; if he doesn't slow down, the WD will trip the train into emergency.
A solid lunar white light indicates that the train operator is complying with the posted speed limit for the WD.
Would you be willing to write up your details and send it to Dave Pirmann in an-email so that he can update the glossary and the FAQ section of thec site?
Unless your at Parkchester where they are always solid white whether you are speeding or not (unless they finally fixed them).
It was a WD (Wheel Dectector). They were just discussed a few days ago because someone asked about the same WD you did.
If the Second system were built today to the exact specs from the 20s, how useful would the new lines be? In other words, would areas that needed the subway then not need them today, and vice versa?
The most obvious line would be the 2nd. av subway, which would be a great impact on the lex, queens boulevard 6th and broadway lines. I would definately say that it would be a great help.
That other crosstown line between bk. and queens would just be another G train: Not enough ridership.
As for the rest of the lines, i don't really know what they'd be like: I don't even really know what they are.
From my 1929 map, there are the following proposed lines:
2nd Ave from Pine St. to the Bronx (Alexander Ave), splitting off at 163rd Street out to East Tremont Ave. Main line going up Boston Road to Morris Park Ave, left on Wilson Ave, conntecting with a "crosstown" stub to the Grand Concourse line, with a terminus at Boston Rd and Baychester Ave.
Worth Street - East Broadway - Grand Street crosstown line, connecting with an extended Houston Street line in Brooklyn, heading east on S. 4th St. (Two tunnels under the East river) This line would split off at Myrtle Ave.
Myrtle Ave Branch would continue alond Central ave (with a connecting line to the Queens Boulevard line along Fresh Pond Rd), then heading east on 98th-99th Street to connect with what was then thought to be a new subway to the Rockaways (eventually just converted LIRR tracks).
A branch would head out towards Montefiore Cemetary via 120th Ave.
The other branch was to go down Stuvesant Ave, continuing down Utica Ave, connecting with an extended IRT Nostrand Ave line via Ave S, with a terminus at Voorhies Ave.
An etension of the 7 line to two terminals, one by Little Neck bay at 38th Ave and 221st St, the other at 11th Ave and 122nd St. I can't imagine what neighborhoods these are, being a Brooklyn boy.
The plan called for an extension of what I guess was the Fulton St line along Liberty Ave out to Van Wyck Blvd, crossing a line that would have gone from the Queens Blvd Line to the 120th Ave line (see above), then up Brinerhoff Ave to Hollis Ave and terminating at Springfield Blvd. A connector to the Jamaica El would be made at 180th Street.
Finally, an extension of the Astoria line would make a 90-degree turn at Ditmars and head along Astoria Ave right on 112th St, left at Nassau Blvd and terminating at Cross Island Blvd.
Am I missing anything here?
PPS
Finally, an extension of the Astoria line would make a 90-degree turn at Ditmars and head along Astoria Ave right on 112th St, left at Nassau Blvd and terminating at Cross Island Blvd.
AKA Astoria Boulevard, Long Island Expressway and Francis Lewis Boulevard.
Ahh....
Those 1929 maps... sheesh, can't they get the names right?
PPS
This is subject to debate, but there was also a planned extension along Lafayette Ave. (the middle track at Bedford-Nostrand on the G splits into two tracks before deadending) which would have turned slightly at Stanhope St. and joined the Myrtle-Central Ave. line.
There were also plans to extend the Queens Line out to the city limits, as well as the Fulton St. subway along Pitkin Ave.
It's safe to assume the city would have developed quite differently had the entire Second System been built.
Your 1929 map shows the Second Sytem on it!?? I've never seen a map with the Second system on it. Where did you get it? Is there any place I can look for one? Since I'm not too familiar with NYC geography, I have a hard time picturing where the second system goes.
What I did was look at the Second System description on this site, and drew the lines in an old Hagstrom map.
The 1929 map is part of the "Twelve Historical New York City Street and Transit Maps", which I believe is available from the transit Museum. It has a plastic ring binding and pouches for all the maps. It rocks big time.
PPS
As for the rest of the lines, i don't really know what they'd be like: I don't even really know what they are.
You need to look here for the complete lowdown on the IND Second System.
--Mark
(The most obvious line would be the 2nd. av subway, which would be a great impact on the lex, queens boulevard 6th and broadway lines. I would definately say that it would be a great help.
That other crosstown line between bk. and queens would just be another G train: Not enough ridership.)
Unfortunately, what isn't useful is the 6th Avenue Line (or the Broadway Line, take your pick). NYC doesn't need more subways, it just needs them in different places. You've got 16 tracks between 6th and 8th Avenue in Midtown, and just four east to the river.
I'd say you'd build the 2nd Avenue through to the Bronx, extend the IND lines in Queens, and build the Utica Avenue line, hooking it up to the L train.
Remember, when the Second System was planned, you had an industrial center on the West Side, a commercial center Downtown, and just residences on the East Side. Midtown was not what it is, neither was Queens, and neither was the auto (for travel within the outer boroughs). So you'd ditch the outer-borough crosstown lines, but you'd probably add crosstown service in Manhattan.
I rather like the idea of the Worth Street - East Bway line to S 4th Street in Brooklyn, joining an extended Houston Street line.
This line also was going to extend out and southeast down Stuyvesant Avenue and Utica Avenue, connecting with the Fulton Street line at Utica. From there it would join up with an extended Nostrand Ave IRT line out to such underserved communities such as Marine Park.
The La Guardia line often spoken about these days was originally proposed in the Second System plan too.
It seems to me that these would work today with some sort of infusion of capital and will. We need a mayor who doesn't dress in drag and try to close down museums, maybe.
PPS
IMHO most of it would be heavily used. Part of the 'defecit' of the G today is thar many of the lines it was designed to link never happened. At a minimum, extra tunnels under the East River would be magical--Manhattan Bridge problems--who cares! Second Ave--this is not a question unless you are from Mars. Extensions/more comprehensive services in outer Bklyn, Queens=faster commuting for thousands of workers. While I "understand" the sequence of 'causes' for what we now call the "no-build" alternative, it was a disaster nonetheless. Despite cyclical downturns in transit ridership, the ultimate utility is clear if we want something to breathe for our children.
After observing the 1929 proposal, some of the lines looked very inessential, such as the entire S 4-Myrtle Ave line.
First of all, that line runs for a stretch parallel to and about one-two blocks away from the J/M/Z line. I believe this was only proposed because of the competition between IND and BMT. Now that the system is unified, and the fact that the J/M/Z show no signs of overcrowding {the line runs fine with 8 car trains} this S 4 St junction is disposable. The only thing I'd like to see is a connection from the G to the J/M/Z where they meet. That'd give some future G riders easier access to Manhattan when they cut off.
Also, I'm not that frequent a Bronx rider but I don't believe that the 2nd Ave subway is being needed north of 125th St, unless the 2/5/6 IRT trains are overcrowding. I believe they wanted to connect the White Plains/Pelham Bay line to B-division because of a proposed extention to the Concourse line making more transfers. I don't know how in need the Concourse line is in an extention either.
I think there should be extensions to YONKERS and MOUNT VERNON. These are very urban areas, which aren't doing all that well. A subway would be a great shot of life. I'm sure though that the city wouldn't want to fund this, it would have to come from the state, from Westchester or from those cities.
Well, the 2Av line, the Utica Ave line, and Nostrand Ave IRT extension would definitely would have been useful today.
3TM
Besides 2nd Ave, the extensions throughout Queens, especially Eastern Queens, would be extrememly useful today. What I'd really want to see now is a few lines completelym seperaye from Queens Blvd. going all the way to end of Queens.
:-) Andrew
Some of The Bronx portions were [sort of] realized/fulfilled when the city took title to the now-Dyre Ave line..in fact, suppposedly LaGuardia was just about to start negotiating construction contracts to extend the Concourse line when that right-of-way became available when the NYW&B went belly up. Obviously all the Queens/Brooklyn extensions/additions would be heaven sent today.....
The 1929 plan was deemed so valuable, most of it was resurrected in the Board of Transportation's 1939 plan, and a majority of it even resurfaced in the MTA's 1968 "Plan for Action".
What made the IND Second System so unique was that a good deal of the lines planned were not in direct competition with previously built lines. Most of these routes were planned for eastern Queens and would have greatly reduced the need for passengers to rely on bus service. An interesting side effect, I think, is that if these routes had been built, the extensive private bus network in Queens might not exist today.
--Mark
If they put a stop in the right place, I could have taken the subway to my junior high school in Glendale. Instead, I had to take the subway or the Q60 bus to the Q29 bus.
I agree with Mark. The question really isn't how useful the IND second system would be today. A lot (if not all) of the areas that would have been serviced by the second system are presently in desperate need of some, additional, or modified subway service.
The question is more about how different would those areas be today if the IND second system had been built. Does the subway bring development, or does development bring the subway?
Matt-2AV
Does the subway bring development, or does development bring the subway?
The answer is yes, the subway brings development and development brings the subway - or more precisely, development brings the need for the subway. The history of New York's outer boroughs - and even that of upper Manhattan - clearly demonstrates the effects that the construction of the Els had on the City's growth. The subway has the same effect.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>The question is more about how different would those areas be today if the IND second system had been built. Does the subway
bring development, or does development bring the subway?
Matt: Both. Development creates a market for transportation , and in NYC the subway is usually a very strong choice for mode of transportation.
The subway itself has historically aided greatly in the expansion of NYC. This is perhaps most prominent in Manhattan and the Bronx (south to north - much of northern Manhattan was suburban or even farmland at the turn of the century. Just one note: the famed "Dakota" apartments adjacent to Central Park (at about 60th St.? - my memory fails me here) described by early 20th Century author Jack Finney (Time and Again), were supposedly named because they were so far from the NYC of their time that they may as well have been in the Dakotas (meaning, the midwestern states)! Now, they are still standing - in the middle of the largest city in the U.S! Brooklyn also expanded with its transit lines, from its own "downtown Brooklyn" out to Coney Island, with its Sea Beach, Brighton Beach (and its well-known Brigton hotel), and other (originally) steam RR's being converted to electric rail lines carrying every more people. Even in Queens the subway is known to have had a marked role in dvelopment. The (now #7) Corona line was touted by local newspapers of the period as rapid transport to work and home for new inhabitants of new upscale (and, many claim, WASPish and ethnically exclusive) apartments and houses in Jackson Heights and other neigborhoods. IIRC, Jackson Heights at that time carried the name of "Trains Meadow" - much of Queens was indeed almost rural in chracter then.
My question is this: Can it be shown that NYC's subways still have an effect on neigborhood development now, in today's world with modern automobile transportation and federally-funded highway development ? I am inclined to believe that it does, but fewer folks make this case. Any comments are very welcome. :)
-cordially,
turnstiles
My question is this: Can it be shown that NYC's subways still have an effect on neigborhood development now, in today's world with modern automobile transportation and federally-funded highway development?
Of course it does; look at Archer Avenue (though I'm not saying the subway alone is a factor, just a biggie). The Queens waterfront will spring up once F trains are running through there full time.
Now the 7 extension to the west side is an example of development bringing the subway.
Most land that was vacant back then is now in use. It is either residential or industrial or park land.
For the New York Metro region to prepare for the future and for growth (population) ZONING will have to be changed.
This is necessary to increase the density of these underserved areas.
Nimby will rear her head and howl.
The best chance for growth is and extension is the take-over or shared ROW i.e. the Westside line, the rockaway branch, the Bay Ridge branch, the Montauk branch, the Douglason branch, and the Hempstead branches!
avid
For the New York Metro region to prepare for the future and for growth (population) ZONING will have to be changed.
Replace "changed" with "abolished" and you would be correct.
You don't like zoning? While I'm sure that there are things in the current NYC zoning ordinance with which I disagree. I grew up in a New England mill town of c. 50K people that came late to zoning and have seen the consequences of unregulated land use. IMHO, getting rid of zoning is not the best idea I've heard today.
[. I grew up in a New England mill town of c. 50K people that came late to zoning and have seen the consequences of unregulated land use. ]
What were the consequences?
Arti
Incompatible uses side by side.
Well, Southeast Queens, the northeast Bronx and the East side would see the greatest benefits, as would the areas around the Flatlands in Brooklyn. Most ofd the other 2nd system lines were merely replacements for existing els.
DART has announced plans for a Wilmington-Dover-Beaches bus on summer weekends. A college friend of mine from Fenwick Island, DE, suggested I go to the Delaware shore rather than the Jersey shore. I investigated getting there without a car, and found that the Cape May bus from Philly, combined with the Cape May-Lewes ferry was the only option, and not very attractive at that. Now there is a direct bus from the first capital to the summer capital.
Carolina Trailways runs daily service from Philadelphia and Wilmington to Delaware beaches via connection at Harrington Delaware. They run additional service in the summer.
The DART/DAST service to the beaches has been around for about the past 8 years. In addition, there is a fairly comprehensive service within the beach communities in the summer months (Rehoboth, Dewey Beach, etc). Given the brutal traffic on Route 1 in this area in the summer, the buses provide an attractive alternative.
Everyone on this site has put in just about every possible plan there could be about routing of subway lines during the manhattan br. re-routes. But no one here has really thought about what will happen after the bridge is fully open.
I imagine that the B will return to being the west end express. However, what about the D/Q lines? 6th av. sees more traffic than broadway does (due to the connection to upper west, and the fact that people from queens to bk would rather take the F or G than the R). So, will the D or Q be the brighton express service?
The biggest question is the N train. Having been cut out of the bridge express service AGAIN, will it return after 2004? Assuming that it does, what about local service on broadway nights?
Finally, the W. In the event that the N runs express after the re-routes, will the W peak direction service be enacted? Maybe it won't be peak direction? If it is made, It will be stupid to run it local after running express on west end/broadway (Which is why it should be LOCAL!).
What does everybody here think about these topics (or any i missed)
J: I was on my best behavior until I read your post. Then my blood started to boil. Not at you but rather the info you dispensed. What the hell is going on with my train? If it is true the Sea Beach has again been ordered off the Manny B, then I will be getting pissed off again. Why can't there be a Brighton, West End and Sea Beach each having access across the bridge. It is equitable, it is fair, and it is not going to happen, damn it. Well I'd better take a deep breath and try to cool it but you can tell I'm not very happy about this turn of events.
What do mean "again"? The N hasn't been on the Manhattan Bridge in years. When both sides are open, it probably will come back.
Andrew
I imagine that when (hopefully not IF) both sides of the bridge open, the W sevice will be terminated and B/6th Ave. service will return. The N should then become a Manhattan Bridge express. What happens when the R doesn't operate? Maybe then the N will operate through the tunnel. Or the R will be pressed into service as a 24 hour operation through the tunnel.
The thought of a Broadway W is intruiging, a bit. Could it become a peak hour operation along the West End line, replacing the M, so there could be peak direction express service between Bay Parkway and 9th Ave. (or 36th St.) as has occasionally been suggested on this board, over the years (I've supported it). If the West End Line could support 2 peak hour local services (M and B) over many years, going back to the 1950's and maybe even earlier, then would peak express service be considered an improvement, or would some people feel that only local is the right way to go?
Mike Rothenberg
The problem is even after surgery, the Manny B's condition will probably still be considered "fragile" (making it the Dick Cheney of East River bridges, so to speak). Because of that, I doubt the MTA would want five lines running over the bridge during AM/PM rush -- the N/Q/W on the Broadway tracks and the B/D on the Sixth Ave. side. Plus that would also mean the Montague Street tunnel would be under-used, since it would only be handling the R.
I don't doubt that West End riders would like two services to midtown Manhattan instead of the downtown-only service the M offers now. But if the W remains after the Manny B fix is finished, it would probably run via tunnel as a Broadway local to Astoria, while the N and Q provide the express service.
The W is just temporary b/c there is no Brooklyn B. When the B returns to its regular route, the W will be deemed disposable.
The W is disposable as a Coney Island to Astoria 5 a.m. to 11 p.m. line when the B returns to full service. But as a rush hour line running from Bay Parkway to Astoria replacing the M service in Brooklyn and the N local service in Manhattan when the Sea Beack goes back to Broadway express over the Manny B the W trsin has some viability -- provided the MTA keeps enough R-40/40M/42s around to augment service after the first of the R-160s arrive (the first additional cars with the R-143 arrivals will go to the V train).
The West End has been re-signaled recently, and part of the change is that skip-stop will become possible.
Most of the TA is still on 80 year old signals. They resignaled the IRT, then put in the 1/9 skip stop. They resignaled the Jamaica line, then put in the J/Z.
They're just wrapping up the West End and Sea Beach. One possibility is M/B skip stop on the West End. Waste of an express stop, though.
A much more sensible idea: using the center express track on West end for express service. B/M trains will not run skip /stop. I guarantee that. It would result in headaches galore, as people at "M stations" watch B trains go by. The TA is replacing ALL signals in the system. This work should be completed by 2017 (or some where near that)
Terrific. Maybe by then, they'll actually decide to speed up the trains ever so slightly.
The West End has been re-signaled recently, and part of the change is that skip-stop will become possible.
What does one thing have to do with the other?
Skip-stop works because the headway between trains less the time saved by the skipping train is less than the minimum headway for the system. This minimum headway is 90 seconds. The West End headway is approximately 180 seconds for 20 tph (B & M combined). The amount of time saved at each skipped station is around 30 seconds. This means there is already is a 30 second cushion for two stops being skipped consecutively and a 60 second chushion for a strict skip-stop service.
They resignaled the Jamaica line, then put in the J/Z.
Skip-stop has been around on the Jamaica Ave Line since the late 1950's. I believe they used the existing 1918 signals, when it was implemented.
There was a recent press release that the MUNI has started running at under 60 second headways under automatic control, as per the performance specs for their new signal system's RFP. Does NYCT have any similar performance specs for the Canary Sea Line?
Which is why a much better idea is to run a peak dir exp (although the M as the local is a really bad idea. ) If by chance whoever plans the routes manages to keep the W west end line around after 2004, then the B could run exp. to that.
Does the L line have those 1918 signals? Are they the oldest ones in the system?
Does the L line have those 1918 signals? Are they the oldest ones in the system?
I mentioned 1918 with respect to the Jamaica Ave Line. The 1918 date refers to when the line was placed in service. Most of the Dual Contract lines were placed in service in the 1918-1920 period, including the Jamaica Ave and West End Lines. Their signal systems date from that time, although with maitenance over the intervening 80 years, there is probably very little original equipment that is is still in place.
The Canarsie Line was built in various stages. The last part wasn't completed until 1928. So, I would not expect to see 1918 signals throughout the line.
What's wrong w/ the third track, it seems any detoured train runs it without a problem, same with the two tracks, {well one track now} extra on the Sea Beach.
For the last time: R-40S/M and 42's will not survive the r-160's!!!!!
The MTA always has the option of altering its plans, and could decide to keep X number of trains that are in the best condtion around if they decided the extra cars were needed to handle higher-than-expected ridership, or in the case of a rush-hour W train, if they needed a few extra put-ins to augment service.
Obviously, the MTA is not going to keep 1,000 old trains around when 1,000 new ones arrive, but 100-200 of the R-40/40M/42s could survive if the situation requires it, and we won't know for sure what they're going to do until the middle of this decade at the earliest.
They'll probably go back to the regular early 80s layout:
B-same {6th Ave,Bridge, 4th, West End, cut back late nights}
D-6th Ave-Bridge-Brighton-C.I.
M-same
N-Broadway-Bridge {except nights}-4th Ave-C.I.
Q-Broadway-Bridge-Brighton. {Weekdays}
R-same {cut back to 36th St overnight}. . .
Now about this W: what used to happen was there used to be a diamond N which ran from Whitehall local to Astoria in order to provide more Bway Local service, and also to provide more service to the Financial District so the R wouldn't be alone in the Financial District for the rush hour. Maybe this could be the new W when "the dust settles." But don't hold your breath.
I think that the TA will reassess all subway service when the bridge is fully available. As to the restoration of the old "regular" service, there have been several other changes that will make that difficult and impractical. The N and R have switched terminals. CPW and Concourse local service is different. The 63rd Street connector will be in service. It seems unlikely the old Brighton Line arrangement (D rush hour express to 6th Avenue, Q rush hour Express to Broadway via the bridge, M rush hour local ) will be restored.
I think that it is more likely that the Q and the V will be merged, the D and the B restored, and the Q local and the W eliminated. The TA promised the community in the 1980s that the N will be restored to the bridge and the Broadway express. There may we some other service using the bridge and the Broadway express. If it is on the West End, then the M would probably be cut back to Chambers or Broad. As for late nights, I think that the N would probably replace the R in the tunnel and the Broadway local. Of course, ridership demands may alter service.
I would recommend something different. I would run the N to Astoria and the Q to 57th/7th on the bridge and the Broadway express. The D and Q both run to the 6th Avenue Express, leading to uneven loading with the Q overcrowded. Shifting the Q to Broadway should lead to more even loading. We can debate which train should run local and which express in Brooklyn. I would run the B train to Continental Avenue except for late nights, replacing the V. I would replace the CPW B local with a K train from Canarsie via Broadway Brooklyn and the Christie Connection to 6th Avenue local and then to Bedford Park during rush hours. Non rush hours, I would run it from 2nd Avenue to 145 Street. I would also run 10 car C trains, so that there would only be one short IND service in Manhattan. (An alternative is 24/7 V train service via 63rd Street with it extended except nights and weekends to Church Avenue (McDonald); that would necessitate sending the B train somewhere else, probably Bedford Park Blvd and 145 Street, depending upon the time, and no K train.)
I realize that I cannot accomplish all of my objectives, and the final service should be based on ridership needs.
I say the Q is needed on Broadway, and not so badly needed on 6th Ave. So definitely B,D,F on 6th and N,Q,R on Broadway. As to who goes local and who goes express on Brighton, I don't know. Does the N have to be express? I don't know, but the Broadway local stations are underserved as it is. Maybe if we keep the W as a local via Montague. So here's a plan:
6th Ave
B-Bedford Pk Blvd. or 145th St to Stillwell Ave via West End
D-205th St. to Stillwell or Brighton Beach via Brighton (local or express?)
F-179th St to Stillwell via 63rd., etc.
V-179th St (so F can run express) to 2nd Ave
Broadway
N-Ditmars Blvd. to Stillwell via Bwy express
Q-57th St./7th Ave to Stillwell or Brighton Beach via Bwy express and Brighton (local or express?)
R-179th St. (so F can run express) to 95/Bay Ridge Bwy local
W-Ditmars Blvd to Stillwell Ave via Bwy local/West End
Not too radical. What do you think?
:-) Andrew
I like it. Then again I'm very biased about it. I want the Sea Beach to run as the Broadway Express over the Manhattan Bridge, and haven't budged from that stance since I've been online. A good idea.
I'm not sure about 5 trains on the bridge. Coming off repairs, that may not be such a good idea. Why do you need a W? One West end-Bway service isn't enough? Make the South terminal of the W at Whitehall, so no stop will go w/o two services in lower Manhattan. Also, what about the M? You'd have 3 west end services. I could hear Bay Ridge and Sea Beach shouting now.
My plan has the W running as a local through the Montague tunnel, not the bridge. The bridge would have the B,D,N, and Q, just like the old days.
:-) Andrew
...and the purpose is to suplement the R as the Broadway local if the N and Q are running express.
:-) Andrew
ok, I misread somewhere
Here's my Plan:
B- Bedford Pk/145 to CI via Bridge/WestEnd
- 205th to Brighton Bch (Exp all the way) via Bridge/Brighton
D- 205th to CI (Brighton LcL) via Bridge/Brighton
F- Same
M- Same
- Same
N- 57/7 to CI via Bridge/Sea Beach EXP
- Ditmars to CI via Bridge/Sea Beach EXP
Q- 57/7 to Brighton Bch via B'way/Bridge/Brighton (EXP all the way)
179th/Hillside to Brighton Bch (Hillside/QB/B'way/Brighton EXP)
R- Same
V- Same
W (I prefer T)- Ditmars to CI LCL (B'way/Brighton LCL)
Explanation-
B and D will be restored as 6 AV expresses and going to B'klyn as it has since the Chrystie opening.
Added a to Brighton Bch as a second Brighton Exp during peak since will be extended to 179th/Hillside. (See Below)
No changes to F and V service. G will end at Court Sq.
M will remain because there will be Nassau St. service from B'klyn.
N and Q will go back as B'way expresses terminating at 57/7 during off-peak hours.
Diamond N will go to Astoria as EXP during peak.
Diamond Q will be a third QB express during peak making use of 63rd ST tunnel and run exp all the way to 179th.
57/7 on B'way line is not a terminal during peak hours.
R will be the same with some short turns at Whitehall.
W (I prefer T) will be the second B'way LCL to CI via Tunnel/Brighton.
What are your comments?
Jose
Dallas, TX
I posted befored I was done.
Here's my Plan:
B- Bedford Pk/145 to CI via Bridge/WestEnd
Diamond D- 205th to Brighton Bch (Exp all the way) via Bridge/Brighton
D- 205th to CI (Brighton LcL) via Bridge/Brighton
F- Same
M- Same
Diamond M- Same
N- 57/7 to CI via Bridge/Sea Beach EXP
Diamond N- Ditmars to CI via Bridge/Sea Beach EXP
Q- 57/7 to Brighton Bch via B'way/Bridge/Brighton (EXP all the way)
Diamond Q179th/Hillside to Brighton Bch (Hillside/QB/B'way/Brighton EXP)
R- Same
V- Same
W (I prefer T)- Ditmars to CI LCL (B'way/Brighton LCL)
Explanation-
B and D will be restored as 6 AV expresses and going to B'klyn as it has since the Chrystie opening.
Added a Diamond D to Brighton Bch as a second Brighton Exp during peak since will be extended to 179th/Hillside. (See Below)
No changes to F and V service. G will end at Court Sq.
M will remain because there will be Nassau St. service from B'klyn.
N and Q will go back as B'way expresses terminating at 57/7 during off-peak hours.
Diamond N will go to Astoria as EXP during peak.
Diamond Q will be a third QB express during peak making use of 63rd ST tunnel and run exp all the way to 179th.
57/7 on B'way line is not a terminal during peak hours.
R will be the same with some short turns at Whitehall.
W (I prefer T) will be the second B'way LCL to CI via Tunnel/Brighton.
What are your comments?
Jose
Dallas, TX
Jose: My comments are get your ass back to New York, get a job with the TA and try to implement your plan. If you can't, do you know anyone on the TA who could being this off? Any plan that has the Sea Beach going express and over the Manny B has my full and enthusiasti support. Go for it.
Right now Fred, your precious N line will not run exp. over the bridge. But, maybe in 2004, it will return to bridge service.
Can you put that in writing and guarantee it? No you can't I wonder what excuse the TA will use in 2004 to shaft the Sea Beach again. BTW is the schedule for this year set in stone, in other words, has it been finalized?
I can't guarantee that the N won't get "shafted" again, but think about it. Q bridge service will get bombarded with riders while N and R trains run happily light. You only need one service to bklyn via tunnel, the bridge is MUCH quicker, and you can bet N will go there. It's only logical.
As for this year, it ain't final, but might as well be. Only god could stop those TA bastards from running the W over Manny B
Which is why running both Qs over the bridge at the same time is beyond me. 4th Ave deserves two bridge lines.
I think the reason is to avoid mass confusion on the public's part. If they went back to QB and QT, maybe, or if they pulled yet another letter out of thin air for the Brighton local (W-Brighton and T-West End would make sense to me :)), then it could happen. They won't go back to the yellow B & D because of complaints ten years ago, and supposedly "W" is the only other letter on the rollsigns (but isn't it only <W>, necessitating replacement anyway?), so that only leaves Q and <Q> for the Brighton. People are already complaining about having to differentiate between the two Qs (as the chief of staff of one city councilwoman asked Lawrence Reuter, "How am I supposed to tell the difference between a circle and a triangle?"); if the two Qs then took separate routes between DeKalb & Flatbush, the negative public reaction would be orders of magnitude greater.
I'm not saying I agree with it; I'm just trying to decipher the logic.
You are think along the same lines I do. I prefer the QB and QT to be brought back but it goes against the single letter/number policy for the lines. And yes, the T should be brought back for the West End. I'm partial to that. However, reality dictates that two bridge lines will come from 6 AV (B & D) and two for B'way (N and Q). Two B'way locals are needed through the tunnel because the R does not operate at all times between 71 AV and 95 ST. So that leaves a W or a T as the second B'way local between Astoria and CI via which ever route could handle an additional local.
Jose
The last time the N went over the bridge, the N was the shuttle, the R went 24/7. When the bridge is fully reopened, the W will go from Whitehall to Astoria, replacing the old diamond N, except to Astoria. The R and W on Broadway would work.
No, there will not be another broadway local to bklyn. Either the R will run nights while the N operates as a shuttle, or the N will make local stops nights. W will replace the old N diamond service, which was one of the craziest service plans ever (N diamond trains ran local peak direction. Because of this, N expresses also ran local peak direction).
As for QT/QB arrangement, that wouldn't work, even if they were re-lettered. A 6th av. line needs to run on brighton, as well as a broadway line. There is no need for a tunnel and bridge service down brighton.
"Either the R will run nights while the N operates as a shuttle, or the N will make local stops nights."
The N always has to be all 24/7. Otherwise, there's no service to Astoria. The line that goes to Astoria automatically gets 24/7 Bway Local/tunnel service.
"The N always has to be all 24/7. Otherwise, there's no service to Astoria. The line that goes to Astoria automatically gets 24/7 Bway Local/tunnel service."
The N could run as a shuttle between Astoria and 57th st, OR run local nights. R trains should not run express, and the Q can't handle all that service by itself.
"The N could run as a shuttle between Astoria and 57th st, OR run local nights. R trains should not run express, and the Q can't handle all that service by itself."
Then the N would have two shuttles, Astoria-57/7 and 36/4 to Coney Island. Why should that happen just to run the R into Manhattan. Also, is there a problem with changing the N from express to local at one point? The R doesn't need to run express. Finally, if you ran the R through, it should end in Manhattan, because Queens Blvd doesn't need a third train overnight. If you end the R at 57/7 and start the N at 57/7, then everybody'll really go crazy b/c they'll be forced to make a meaningless transfer.
I would say no changes should be made within the NR at night because obviously, the N has no partner or a friend that can help do its job in Queens and Brooklyn. And the R has a sibling (N) do to take over in Manhattan and its long time friends E and F to take over in Queen during night. One problem, if Q is able to help N in Manahattan, while N is responsible for its destination between 57/7 and Astoria; and 36/4 and stillwell. Whose gonna help Q to do the job in Brookly between Atlantic Av and Stillwell (Brighton line)? If N shuttle between 36/4 and stillwell and 57/7 and Astoria, then Q must run on the N between 57/7, and 36/6 in order to make a full connection and Brighton rider will be left with no service.
Lets just stick with TA's plan from now to 2004 and see how success the plan was.
"Whose gonna help Q to do the job in Brookly between Atlantic Av and Stillwell (Brighton line)?"
The Q will represent Brighton express as well as local. It will be designated by circle Q and diamond Q, the local will be orange, the express will be yellow, though they both go up Broadway. It doesn't need help on its line. But one thing I was thinking about, if the TA can get the cars together at one point, my idea was to run the Franklin Shuttle as a 4-6 car train down Brighton local during rush hours and have all Qs go express. That way, nobody would care about circle or diamond. During off-hours then, it doesn't matter which train the TA eliminates, because it would all now just be considered Brighton local.
Because you would piss off everybody on the Brighton local stations who don't get a train that goes anywhere useful (Manhattan, or even downtown Brooklyn).
To think nothing of the Sea Beach fans who are already pissed off that the Brighton will have two trains over the bridge while the N gets to serve another stretch in that damn lower Manhattan tunnel.
At least their train goes into Manhattan.
True, but you once the local train hits the express stop, the wait for a train shouldn't be any more than 2-3 minutes, and then it's full express.
Many people want a one-seat ride. Railfan fantasies are not a good enough reason to eliminate one.
There's also another reason for a one-seat ride: The seat. Somebody coming on at a local stop might want to keep their seat instead of losing it an Newkirk Avenue (where transferring, if you are already on the local is mostly useless, but the local is still empty enough at H).
Yes, but you don't think the frequency of the expresses will grant seats? Remember, these are two lines on the express.
How is that possible if the train is already SRO at SHEEPSHEAD BAY?
It will only grant seats to people at Kings Highway.
You have a good point there, especially based on the 63rd St issue whereas the G is being cut back because it doesn't go to Manhattan, and nobody on QB wants it.
The "G" cutback is not set in stone. Stay tuned.
I know. Any thread that comes up about Queens Blvd or 63rd St I follow.
Why not do the following:
Run the M on Brighton
Put cars from the Q local (R-40's) on the M/Qexp./W lines.
This will allow the N/W/Q to all run the bridge at once.
Then West End will be getting angry at losing service to lower Manhattan, and 4th Ave will only have one local, which isn't enough during rush hour. The M has to stay on 4th. The Q local should just be given another letter and run through the tunnel, and put the N on the bridge. So bridge routes are: N, Q express, {Q local off hours}, W, and tunnel routes are: M, Q local {except off hours}, R
Very imaginative. Can't find any faults in the plan. Hopefully there is someone on the TA team of operations planning that will see your post and take it seriously for 2004.
Yes it's true: your N train is being screwed again. The TA exec's seem to like screwing the N line. like back in '94 when they made it a 4th av. local and ran the M express on 4th av. (Horrible idea).
The N is once AGAIN cut out of the Manhattan Bridge merry-go-round. This time it was the victim of 2 brighton services and a west end service. Logical thing to do is rid that damned W of it's bridge privliges and put the N there. Or, you could make the M the brighton local, slap a few r-40's on it and the W for extra service and run the N across in place of the brighton local (Q).
Note: All you people hoping for a W to brooklyn after bridge construction: FORGET IT!!!! There will never be enough cars for that. If the W does run, it will be as a rush hours local (maybe peak dir, laying-up at City hall LL) to WHITEHALL!!! Present montague riders will take the much faster Q and N expresses across the bridge. Not only aren't there enough cars, but that would be overserving west end, and it would be pointless to run 2 broadway lines down those lines, as they are so close to each other.
I now have to go home unhappy and take it out on my wife and dogs.
Well, in 2004 after your wife and dogs are maimed, you'll have N service across the bridge!
Good, then I will have quick service out of town in order to beat the police to where I'm going. Just between you and me, I'm heading to Coney where I'll take a boat to the Bremuda Triangle. I have a secret hideout there no one knows about.
Poor dogs
You're assuming that the bridge will be fully open again in the future. I have a feeling that it will never see full service again.
-Hank
Ditto here.
The TA has said that nothing is set in stone for the bridge full-open scenario, and public hearings will be held during the several months prior to the bridge's complete reopening. The N's triumphant return is a distinct possibility.
My opinion: eliminate the M, and replace it with the W on the West End. Send the W through the tunnel, Broadway local, and up to Astoria. Send the N over the bridge and Broadway express, so you have an option at 59 St. Keep the Brighton local the way it is now, 6 Ave express, and the express the way it will be this summer, Broadway express.
I was just thinking of something, I'm not sure how practical it would be. If both sides of the bridge are open, and the N train moves to the bridge, then there would be some extra capacity in the Montague Street tubes. In this case, can we have full time J service to Coney Island? I know there's already a transfer from the J to the F at Essex, but I think this would be a way to increase J ridership, possibly. I know someone will complain that there's not enough cars for all of this, but the R143s will displace 200 or so R40/R40M/R42 cars. The next thing someone will complain about it lack of ridership, although the J train seems to have many riders even on nights and weekends.
Just an idea :)
Shawn.
If it went by Brighton, it would essentially be the old "QJ".
I don't know that it's nessesary, though.
:-) Andrew
What's necessary and what's desired are always two totally different things. I wonder how many people out there would like to see this kind of service. Maybe Straphangers could take a poll or something, they always seem to have more than enough time on their hands :)
Shawn.
The r-143 will displace 200 R-40S/40m/42 cars. But, there's this new line in queens. You may have heard of it, the V train. Plus, N trains will not go back to the bridge until 2004, not this August. That's quite a long time.
Today I saw these 2 cars with graffiti on the exterior @ Unionport Yard why is this happening again its begging to fill like the 1970's & 1980's era I thought none of the stainless steel subway cars could take graffiti why it happen to these brand 2 new subway cars?
they can take but it is easier to clean off graffitti
I actually saw a couple of R62s on the 4 in 1997 with graffiti. And don't forget, stainless steel cars like the R32s and 46s didn't escape the evil scourge of graffiti. I even saw a Metro-North M1 car in dead storage in Stamford completely covered in graffiti. It can show up on stainless steel too. It's just easier to clean it off on stainless steel.
Particularly hard hit by the graffitti scourge were the R40s, which, while laid up along the Queens IND express tracks, sufferered badly at the painters' hands. And the R44s got hit regularly too. In the bad old days, EVERY subway car had graffitti at one time or another, stainless or LAHT, R6 all the way up to R46.
The LIRR has four cars currently at HolBan yard (#9048, #9365?, #9717, #9748) which suffered fire/accident damage and each one is covered with florid, spectacular murals. AND in the same yard, some antique coaches sit splattered with spray paint.
wayne
The stainless steel cars were able to take advantage of the car washers better than the carbon steel cars back in the 1970s, since the spray paint adhered to the metal less than it did to the cars that had to be painted (and, unfortunately, to the blue doors on the R-32s). That's why the exteriors of the IRT and the R-30 and below BMT/IND cars suffered worse from the graffiti plague, while the interiors of all the cars were hit about the same.
Interesting, 6304 was hit with graffiti when it first arrived. Coincidence?
Maybe it's part of "Arts for Transit?" :)
When I saw and rode R142 #6304 it was clean and free of graffitti.
The original #6304 (the R16) escaped the graffitti scourge.
wayne
I have been working at Unionport There is more than 2 cars Hit Its more like 8 or 9 . They havent even moved those cars in 3 weeks so the artists realized the timing was right. On one 142 car ,which was moved really fast ,there was a top to bottom Piece.(covered in graffiti)
There was one Redbird consist that ran the #1 and the #2 for QUITE a while which had the entire consist spray-painted in a WONDERFUL African Jungle motif (the entire train was hit) and it was beyond beautiful, it was STUNNINGLY artful. While I was angered by the personal ego-boosting "Kilroy wuz here" of most grafitti, this one number was absolutely art on wheels. Lions, tigers, elephants, all sorts of greenery and non-urban art throughout the whole consist. And that train seemed to make the rounds throughout the IRT system as though the TA actually APPROVED of it ...
Anyone else out there ever see the "Jungle train" before it was repainted? Even the yuppie art magazines had pictures of it ...
For some reaons I'm not suprised about this. There has been a rash of 1970-1980s style graffiti making its way back in the subway system especially on the interior of cars. I have a real bad feeling that history is about to repeat itself.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
its a fact that today's juveniles are 10 times worse than back in the late 70's early 80's. history is repeating itself but don't forget that the MTA ain't havin' dat !@#%$. eventually (or until the last minute) the mta will take more drastick measures to keep it graffitti clean.
its a fact that today's juveniles are 10 times worse than back in the late 70's early 80's.
Todays adults are ten times worse with zero tolerance and other HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS. Much bigger than in the 70s and 80s.
Remember, it was in the beginning of the 70s that the voting age was lowered to eighteen, then it was in the mid-to-late 80s (1986 to be exact) that the tides had turned and the Feds blackmailed the states into raising the drinking age to 21 (now if there was no sixteenth amendment, it never would have happened).
history is repeating itself
If you're right, then hopefully the liberal movement of the 60s (hippies) is coming back. I saw a VW bus painted in psychedelic colors with stickers like GO SOLAR on it going down Fifth Avenue near 33rd the other day.
but don't forget that the MTA ain't havin' dat !@#%$. eventually (or until the last minute) the mta will take more drastick measures to keep it graffitti clean.
i think the hippie 60's is coming back in retro mode. Volkswagen is making plans to produce its microbus. you will get to see it at the New York Auto show in april at Javits center. i do agree with you that the adults are getting worse with human rights violations. look at giuliani(da dumb @$#%!). hes trying so hard to get rid of art that seems offensive of the catholic religion and fighting words with Renee Cox over "Yo Mama's Last Suppa" right there he is violating the first amendment and he's lookin' to get an ass whippin' from the federal government.
right there he is violating the first amendment and he's lookin' to get an ass whippin' from the federal government.
No, he's not. The government cannot interfere with that "art" but it is under no obligation to financially support it. He is well within his rights to terminate government funding for the sponsoring organization, although he cannot prevent the sponsoring organization from displaying it using private funds.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But he is singling them out just because of their art.
Government should stop sponsoring all the art period. This way there won't be the sticky situation of approved art and unapproved art.
oh yes he is. when he tried to stop them from coming into the museums. and also his stopping his funds to the art is a form of violation. the art is like freedom of speech and he is acting against it because he and the catholic body don't like it. he tried the same act a year ago and the higher gov't acted against him.
I was thinking more about violations against youth.
Of course, I don't think that the museum should be subsidized at all, regardless of the type of art displayed inside.
That's really Giuliani's beef, he doesn't want city funds for that art.
This may be off topic, but I have a comment about the whole issue of art as a freedom of expression.
So if depicting Christ as a naked woman or painting a picture of the Virgin Mary with elephant dung is well within the rights of the first ammendment, then I guess those rights could apply to almost anything.
What if someone was to paint a picture of Malcolm X or Martin Luther King in a similar fashion with elephant dung? Would the NAACP and Al Sharpton just accept it as 1st ammendment also? I highly DOUBT it.
What if someone was to paint a picture of Hitler or Stalin or General Mao with angel's wing's? Isn't that also accepted as freedom of speech and expression? And the anti-defamation groups would not say anything in protest? I highly DOUBT it.
I am not looking for a fight. I am simply stating a point. If the museum should get funding, it would and should also get funding no matter WHICH paintings are displayed. After all, we don't want to have a double standard, do we? Obviously many people would be offended by the paintings I described above. But in turn I as a Christian am offended by those pictures the museum has chosen to display.
If those pictures were displayed (the ones you mentioned). They should still be protected through free speech.
if they were to do such a thing as make malcom x and martin king out of elephant dung, then so be it. its art. if they were to put wings on hitler or stalin, then so be it. its art. like what renee cox did its art. its offensive,but intriguing and eye catching to the public. art is supposed to spark controversy and ideas and other thoughts. that is its nature. as for me being born into christian(moravian)it doesn't bother me at all. i know the meaning of the last supper and the virging mary. but just because they are put into altered positions or made with poop doesn't mean its defaming, for i and a majority of other people don't understand the fuss. anybody can say anything they want against anybody. as long they don't committ a crime of hate to anyone. skin heads and arian nation members condemn and slur the other races on the earth, but as long as they don't act out crimes of hate, let them keep talking. the catholic priest always condemn gays and lesbians. but aslong as they don't violate them in any way, then they can talk all they want. guliani did wrong in trying to control the art. its considered freedom of speech and he broke the law by trying to start a "decency party" and he is lookin for a fine ass whippin'
Does anybody have any details about this so-called railway somewhere down the Jersey Shore? I have heard about it, but never found any details about it.
Thanks.
It was abandoned ca 1945.
The Five Mile Beach Electric Railway was the local transit company in the Wildwood area, operating rail service from 1902 to 1945 (and continuing to operate open cars until the end, surely one of the last operators of such equipment in the U.S.)
The local operator of "trolleys" (e.g., motor-buses tarted up as old-fashioned streetcars) in Wildwood still uses this name, though I don't know if they're actually a direct descendant of the railway company.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Five Mile Beach Bus is a direct descendant of the electric railway, although I don't know if it's still in business. The last time I was in Wildwood (1993) the service was no longer operating on Pacific Ave as it had for years. Some of the last equipment on the roster were a few NJ Transit Flxible Metros which were assigned through the private operator program. Five Mile Beach also operated (and may still run)the famous 'tram cars' on the Wildwood Boardwalk.
There is a book which outlines the history of Five Mile Beach called 'The Story of Cape May County Trains and Trolleys' by Nathan Cope, printed in 1993. I bought a copy from the New Jersey NRHS a few years back (I think it was $20 or so). Fairly informative on the operations.
Hey Guys,
Taking a 1 week trip to Italy in 2 weeks. Any train related suggestions? I read Rome has a small subway system....
Rome: Couple of lines of Metro (41 km total; about 45 stations); a light rail line; suburban electric railroads; a few pictures in our section on Italy;
Naples: Two metro lines; three or four funiculars; I think also a light rail line? Some pictures in the Italy section.
Genoa: Small metro line
Milan: Large (relatively speaking) metro network (69 km; 84 stations; 71 underground) - 4 lines; Tram network still using some Peter Witt cars. Some pictures in the Italy section.
Intercity high speed rail (which they call the "Eurostar" but I'm not sure if the trains are the same as the UK-France Eurostar)
If the Peter Witts are still in near as many numbers and you'd like to experience the feel of the early days of trolleys Milan is a must.Standing outside my hotel at night hearing the sounds of those cars running in the street, the incandescent lighting in the cars, not to mention seeing the style of another age was great. Not to mention standing in the street opposite the central station and seeing these cars going by on perhaps four routes. Great.
GO VISIT THE BREDA PLANT IN ITALY AND TAKE A LOOK AT THE NEW MBTA type 8's
Thanks for the info Dave. I'm taking my digital camera and will send you some transit photos when I get back.
Doesn't Rome still have streetcars? I rode on the #12 and #14 lines when I was there in 1977 - the first time I had ever ridden on a streetcar in my life. A ride cost 50 lire back then. To top it off, the motorman on the car we took back to out hotel after dinner one night staged a half-hour strike.
Yes, Rome still has streetcars (trams).
Is one of the Naples lines the one in the McNapoli Mechanik Simulation?
Catania, which is in Sicily also boasts a tiny metro, which was opened in 1999. It is operated by FCE railway (which runs around Mt. Etna). The webpage is with a picture and brief description is
www.trainweb.org/subwaymark/transit/italy.htm
Naples has three different metro lines. The first is run by F.S. national railways to Pozzuoli with 4 underground stations. The second is a full metro line. The final is a line completed around 1991? with a fleet of LRT vehicles. It never opened to the public, but I believe the line will open soon.
I'm heading to New Orleans this week. I haven't had much of a chance to research the streetcars and other transit there, besides on this site. What should I absolutley, positively not miss, transit-wise? Any thoughts from anyone?
Obviously, ride the streetcar lines from end to end. The Riverfront line is short. The St Charles line is very picturesque.
Time permitting, a steamboat ride (with engine room visit) is worthwhile if you're a steam fan.
Enjoy.
BTW, thanks for posting your photos.
Bob
I've heard one of the streetcars goes through "the garden district." That must be the St. Charles Line. Unfortunately, rain is expected, but I hope to get some decent photographs. If I keep this up, I'll have to invest in a slide scanner and some decent scanning and photo-editing software. :O) Expect some pix and a (short, I promise) trip report next week!
There's a very nice photo of the green (PTC livery?) PCC rounding a corner from a fantrip in West Philadelphia in this months Railpace. Wish mine turned out like that. I think the museum (RTM) has scheduled a PCC charter for this Spring, which I have yet to sign up for. I've only fantripped on the Peter Witt.
KP
"A 'hobby' is an 'interest' which costs money!"
Yes, that's the St. Charles Line that runs through the Garden District. Also keep your eyes open along Canal Street. There's no revenue service on that route as of yet, but there are sometimes old trolleys doing test runs up and down the middle of the street.
Mark
If you're lucky, you might get a motorman on the St. Charles line who will give a description of the many large houses on either side of that thoroughfare. The one I had during my visit in 1994 kept emphasizing over and over that these were all single family residences. He even pointed out where Tulane Stadium, the old Sugar Bowl, once stood.
Thanks, fellas. My better half is willing to let me railfan at least part of our trip. I'll try to make it worthwhile. I figure, since one of the lines goes through the Garden District, and there are potentially chatty motormen, she might actually enjoy herself!
Question: Are these lines mainly for tourists, like the San Francisco Cable Cars, or do they actually serve public transit?
The trolleys in New Orleans are pretty touristy, but this isn't to say that local folk don't use them as well. Both lines run through areas that are big tourist draws, namely the riverfront and the Garden district. They're not how most New Orleans reisdents get to work, though.
If you want a really non-tourist New Orleans transit adventure, you can do what I did and take the bus from the airport to downtown. I was the only person on the bus who didn't work at the airport, I think. It was cool because the passengers would open the windows to talk to their friends as the bus passed them on the sidewalk. You might not want to do this at night, though, because the bus runs a truncated route after dark. This meant I had to change buses in a rather seedy part of town, far from the Spanish Moss and mansions that St. Charles trolley riders see.
Mark
The St. Charles Line was heavily utilized by locals at rush hour when I rode it 1.5 years ago.
My better half enjoyed the St. Charles line; at least she didn't complain.
Pete,
You CANNOT miss the carbarn, and I cannot emphasise this enough! When I went to New Orleans about a hear ago, David Pirman suggested it on this board. I followed his advice, and it was great!
Here's what you do: take the St. Charles Line streetcar all the way to the end of the line. About a block from the terminus, you will see a set of tracks branch off the mainline and travel down a sidestreet. Simply disembark the streetcar and follow the tracks to the transit authority's streetcar maintenance facility.
Simply the sight of this structure, and the numerous streetcars inside, was breathtaking for me and my party. We slowly ventured inside until someone asked if they could help us. We said we heard that tours were given of the facility, and the person directed us to the manager of the building.
This man was extremely friendly, and gave us a PERSONAL tour of the entire building! He showed us where they build new streetcars from scratch, the huge woodshop, a painting facility and other areas. Also, he gave us several free posters and brochures from when the Riverfront line opened.
Wanna know the best part? It's FREE! That's right, no charge at all for this tour.
It was my favorite part of the trip to New Orleans. Be sure to check it out.
--Brandon Bostian
Go to the French Quarter, find a place that serves Aligator Sausage.
I has a cajun name, it's made with gator,rice and seasonings...
GOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooD.
avid
What year was the Simpson Station rebuilt? What was the cause of the fire? I've heard many diferent stories including arson.
It's actually Intervale that was rebuilt. In 1989, some yahoos firebombed Intervale and 2 and 5 trains skipped it for about three years until it was finally reopened and completely rebuilt. All Simpson got were elevators for handicapped accessibility but was never set on fire and retains most of its original look.
IIRC Intervale station burned as the aftermath of a robbery attempt. The yahoos tried to rob the clerk, with the modern booths almost an impossibility. So they firebombed the booth. Even if non-combustible the heat from the fire [bomb] caused the door to stick shut and she almost didn't escape. How some good Samaritan was able to break in and save her I don't know.Exactly why so much of the station was burned I don't know. The perpetrators must have been well "armed" or should I say fueled?
Stop putting re: in the beginning of the subjects on your messages, it just doubles up the re.
What does Flanders Street and Simpson Sts have in common?
One is at 742 Evergreen Terrace, the other is next door.
Is there a flanders station in portland Or. from what I understand flanders street is a major road.
I guess Portland is a lot more religious than The Bronx.
Flanders Street Station is the Main Railroad/Subway Station in Melbourne Australia. BTW, That is where you catch the train to Brighton Beach
"Is there a flanders station in portland Or. from what I understand flanders street is a major road."
There is a Flanders way out east on Long Island by Riverhead. But alas, no subway or "el" there !
Bill "Newkirk"
take a look at some of the street names that intersect NW 23rd street in portland: BURNSide, flanders, lovejoy, quimby. apparently, matt groening grew up or spent some time in portland and named some of his characters after the streets there.
On topic, please....
OK. The Simpsons once had an episode where they knocked on monorails.
:-) Andrew
They also had a couch gag with a subway station: EVERGREEN TERRACE and one in which a car drove down into the stairs for the THIRD STREET STATION.
It was a street sweeper amd two non-consecutive referances to a Springfield Subway verifies its existance.
You are correct, Matt Groening is from Portland, Or.
Peace,
ANDEE
Back on topic, has anyone ever seen this Simpsons episode? In the opening segment, they all run into their living room, only it's not a living room, but a subway station. It's done in elaborate old-NYC style tile reading "EVERGREEN TERRACE". I've only seen it once.
Mark
Back on topic, has anyone ever seen this Simpsons episode? In the opening segment, they all run into their living room, only it's not a living room, but a subway station. It's done in elaborate old-NYC style tile reading "EVERGREEN TERRACE". I've only seen it once.
I recall it too, some years ago.
While on the subject of the Simpsons, it's interesting to note how the writers are careful not to place Springfield in any particular part of the country. It's everywhere and nowhere, so to speak.
Here are a few examples of Springfield's location:
In one episode, Homer points to Chicago as the location of Springfield, the Lisa goes "No, Springfield is here" just when Bart blocks the map with his head.
Marge calls a number and gives her address just as Mrs. Flanders walks in towards the end: "742 Evergreen Terrace, Springfield, Oh hiya Maude!"
When Homer and Bart go to the Edison museum in New Jersey, the exit from the highway they use points to a number of states all over the country (incl Texas and New Jersey).
In the "Behind the Laughs" episode, they're called a Southern Missouri family.
Also, the school was ranked the the Wost in Missuori...before it was moved to Springfield.
Anyway Springfield is in Ohio.
"Anyway Springfield is in Ohio. "
Let's not go there I have seen threds on this topic get hundreds of post with nothing said.
>>>Anyway Springfield is in Ohio. <<<
There is a Springfield in every one of the 48 contiguous United States. That's the joke.
Peace,
ANDEE
I've done research and Springfield Ohio most closely matches the evidence.
Actually, no. In a recent episode, they actually revealed that it was Springfield, Kentucky. Plus, there is a Shelbyville, KY right down the road from Springfield, KY. Transit angle -- Monorail! Monorail!Monorail!
What episode was this?
I'll have to ask my son when I get home. It was this season.
That would explain the presence of Cletus the slack jawed yockel!!
Actually, no. In a recent episode, they actually revealed that it was Springfield, Kentucky. Plus, there is a Shelbyville, KY right down the road from Springfield, KY. Transit angle -- Monorail! Monorail!Monorail!
Isn't it near the Wiggums Interlocking?
Peace,
ANDEE
D'oh! Another "The Simpsons" joke! There's enough of those on the WPR line in the Bronx (guess where? of course, @ Simpson St.)
That would be the West Farms line.
i am saddened to have observed john's experience here on subtalk radio... john's posts frequently reflected one individual's experience with the transit system put in a very personal context of what was going on in his life... perhaps in innocence or need, he let too much of his personal life hang out... in innocence, he didn't realize that here at subtalk radio, it's issues and people's opinions that are in the forefront...
i write this not to condemn anyone... i write this out of my own concern for what the internet means in my own life, and how the internet's shallowness and my own shallowness distress me... i bring a very personal connection to subways, buses, elevators and the internet... i dwell in my own chilly isolated world...
i honor the moments on subtalk when someone has opened up and i've gotten a glimpse of the soul of the person posting... i remember clearly sea beach fred once describing his feelings riding a fast moving sea beach express... he wasn't afraid because the train was a friend... that touched me and i felt that fred is a kindred spirit...
john... i have witnessed some of your pain and seeking that you have expressed here... i have left subtalk myself in anger several times... putting all the issues aside, i hope that you and i and everyone else here can find places of safety and meaning in our lives...
The storm here in the greater Boston area is having an effect on MBTA operations. Downtown Boston has about 3-6" of snow, but that increases markedly in the northerns, western, and southwestern suburbs. About 15 miles away in the Route 128 corridor (where I live), we have about 15" now. And 15 miles further northwest, it's well over two feet. Here's the 8:19am MBTA operations summary from their Web site:
Blue:
All service trains are running on or near schedule.
Red:
All service trains are running on or near schedule.
Orange:
All service trains are running on or near schedule.
Green:
Due to fallen trees (weather related) the D Line between Riverside and Reservior, expect some delays. Emergency Personnel in area
clearing trees.
Bus:
The following buses are running on snow routes-24-50-62-67-78-84-93-110-111-112-120-411-429-433-441-442 Please be advised that private carriers are curtailing their service due to adverse weather conditions. Please check with your service provider.
Commuter:
Lowell and Needham Commuter Rail lines will experience approximately 30-45 minute delays getting into Boston due to weather
related operational problems.There are 20 minute delays on Franklin Lines due to crossing gates down. Haverhill commuter rail trains
are experiencing 45-60 minute delays. Haverhill line train #253 and 258 will not run but the 205 outbound will make all stops. Haverhill
line 206 will be 30 - 45 mins delayed. Framingham 30 - 40 mins late, due to weather. Fitchburg trains are running 15-20 minutes
behind schedule, and Gloucester service is delayed 30-45 minutes.Attleboro and Stoughton service is running 15-20 minutes behind schedule.
Water:
All water transportation for Tuesday, March 6th has been cancelled. Commuters should seek alternate transportation. MBTA will
provide notification of the resumption of services.
The weekly mass transit newsletter I receive reported:
Schumer said at a February press conference in Mineola. "My proposal rewards commuters who choose mass transit and makes drivers think twice about getting in their cars.
Hmmm sounds good to me. Anyone think he has a alternate adgenda ?
Mr t__:^)
What exactly was the proposal?
What follows is some lifted text from the "Tri-State Transportation Campain's" Issue #307, of 3/5/01, by Kristen Fountain and others.
[A bill introduced by NY Senator Charles Schumer would
increase the amount of pre-tax income employees could
set-aside for mass transit and van-pooling fares. The bill,
"the Commuter Benefits Equity Act" which Schumer
introduced with Sen. John Warner of Virginia, a senior
Republican on the Environment and Public Works
Committee, would hike the monthly pre-tax transit
spending ceiling to $175 per month starting in 2002.]
Copyright Disclaimer: I have lifted less then 400 words & identified the publication and author.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, since Schumer lives and grew up in Brooklyn, I'm sure he values the need for mass transit issues.
I met him on a few occassions years ago, and while I felt he comes off as a career politican -- more than others of his ilk -- has a genuine interest in doing the right thing for commuters.
BMTman
Isn't his wife head of NYC DOT?
Peace,
ANDEE
Me thinks you're on zee money...
BMTman
Me thinks she's my boss, or at least pays the bills since I work for a private company.
Mr t__:^)
Chuckie is a politician! He'd sound like "A Mass Transit Advocate" if he found the MTA was serving free balogna sanwiches & milk at a luncheon for transit advocates.
Chuckie is a politician! He'd sound like "A Mass Transit Advocate" if he found the MTA was serving free balogna sanwiches & milk at a luncheon for transit advocates.
I wouldn't. I'd wait for them to offer free pastrami sandwiches and Coke. At least salami and apple juice.
That's tomorrow at PS 248 - The 2nd annual manager's conference.....
LOL!!!
You guys are a riot!
BMT(sandwich)man
I was expecting the managers to get filet mignon and champagne.
And I think we deserve it too.....
...you guys deserve week-old White Castle Burgers...;-)
Just Kidding, TD.
BMTman
I'd take the white castle - (extra pickel and ketchup, thanks) if I didn't have to listen to the speeches.
Several years ago I bought my boss at the time a White Castle Burger paper weight for a Christmas gag (he's Jewish ... it comes in one of those boxes & looks like the real thing). Anyhow, I knew he liked the real thing ... it is still on his desk.
Mr t__:^)
Does anybody know why Newark PCC #16, the work car, has 2 pantographs? Is there some equipment on board which must draw power for some purpose, necessitating another pick-up besides the pan used to power the car itself? Or is it simply a back-up? I remember seeing work cars on my Coney Island shop tour which had extra 3rd rail shoes. Same concept?
How is this for a guess, they was the test car and they tested the placement of where the Pan would go??
(Is that the number one answer?)
The extra pan may be a sleet cutter. Here in Baltimore, two of our LRVs have 2 pans, one (the regular on the number one end) is the pickup and the other (on the number two end) is a sleet cutter.
I can hear Richard Dawson now: "Survey said!!!"
Just as long as nobody wants to phone a friend I s'pose ...
I noticed the "Special" sign on the front. My guess is this the work PCC? Maybe the two pans for back up moves?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, it's the work car. It was running back and forth on the line all day that day, but I didn't notice it backing up. If I'd thought about it, I'd have paid more attention. Notice the metal gaskets on the front windshield. Compare to the rubber ones on the revenue PCCs in (the) other photos of the NCS PCCs.
Why would it need 2 pantographs for backup moves? Isn't a pantograph "omnidirectional"? Our Regional rail MU single Units have only one pantograph, on the married pairs there is only one pantograph, and it is on the "A" car. SEPTA's Suburban Kawasaki double-ended cars only have one pantograph. IMO, having more than one Pantograph is just a waste of roof space.
Like I said, could the second pan be a sleet cutter?
On Monday, March 05, the three car train of PCC "L" cars made a successful round trip out onto the "L" structure. Officially referred to over the radio as "the training train", cars 22, 6655/ 6656 journeyed from Skokie Shops to Howard to Clark JCT and then downtown to the Loop. Feeling their "oats" the train travelled north to Clark JCT and then turned, going all the way to Kimball. Since the Kimball layup pocket was occupied, the training train immdiately departed for a return to Skokie, turning from SB to NB at Clark JCT. The cars now await their debut in the filming scenes of the movie "Ali."
And at least for these three cars, among the dozens of similar museum residents, they got to once more again "rattle the steel columns and beams of the "L". It was a long long way from the cornfields.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
Have these cars been repainted in their original colors, of merucury green and cream?
From what I heard they're in town for a movie shoot, repainted green and WHITE!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
That would be appropriate for the late 60s. Most of the 6000s had been repainted green and white by then.
COOL my favorite 'subway' cars!
The cars remain painted as they were received from Illinois Railway Museum, in the charcoal, silver, scheme from the late 80's. There is no plan to repaint them for the filming, whatsoever. Now if you really, really, want the cars repainted, I am sure IRM will accept cash contributions to that end. Graham Garfield's Chicago "L" site should be putting up some video captures.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
And even if they were repainted for the filming of Ali, it wouldn't be in the original 1950s mercury green, croydon cream, and swamp holly orange. The scenes in Ali take place in the late 1960s, so they would be in the mint green and alpine white scheme. But as Dave Harrison said, they have not been repainted and it looks unlikely right now...
Also as Dave said, I will post posting pics of the training run yesterday on my site tonight or tomorrow morning, at the latest.
Graham Garfield
http://Chicago-L.org
And I'm sure Hollyweird won't much care and many people won't notice the improper paint scheme - if I had a nickel for every Toronto or LA subway train I see claiming to be NYCTA ... well ... I'd have a lot of nickels. :)
You can say that again!
Wonder if it'll be possible for a CERA fantrip aboard them on CTA territory before they go back ....
It would be cool!
--Mark
Maybe CTA might consider a San Fran. F line type thing, if nothing else like a saturday shopper or shuttle service where these 6000's could do a weekly stint in a part time service. Wouldn't expect a daily like the Frisco F line. Never hurts to keep cars active to a degree? Not that I've ever been a big fan of them. 4000's yes!
Speaking of the 4000s, I had a dream about them the other night. I was actually riding on them, and they got up to 50 mph along that nice straight stretch between, oh, Grandville and Wilson. They even had speedometers! Their bull and pinion gears were wailing away; IIRC they had spur-cut gears.
Too bad I never got to ride on them when they were still on the Evanston Express.
There are photos (video captures, actually) of the crew training run of the IRM PCCs on the "L" at http://Chicago-L.org/news.html. Enjoy!
Graham Garfield
http://Chicago-L.org
Indeed they had the spur cut gears and sounded like R1-9, Low-V etc. To my knowledge all the original traction equipment had them New York except for some locomotives. Like New York Centrals T1,2,3 which were bipolars like Milwaukee bipolars,,the armatures were mounted on the axles and on each side was a field pole, hence bi-polar.
Another nice stretch was when they had the skip stops on lake, 4000's and lots of straight iron. Cool man. BTW the 4000's live at IRM and are alive and running.
I know IRM has at least four 4000s in the yellow and green livery I remember. There is a photo of all four lashed up as a train on the mainline, trolley poles raised. Hopefully, someday I'll make it out to Union when they're out on the mainline. And if Green Hornet 4391 happened to be running on the loop track, it would be icing on the cake. Now, if the Electroliner happened to be running that day...
Implementation of Winter Operations Plans is based on forecasts prepared by the National Weather Service.
Plan 1 - Temperatures forecast between 30 degrees and 11 degrees F.
RTO will continue normal schedules.
Train cutting will be discontinued.
Trains stored in the open will be 'cut-in' (top-side charged) .
Plan 2 - Temperatures forecast at 10 degrees F and lower.
GOs and work trains will be cancelled where needed.
Operate maximum lenght trains on all lines except OPTO lines.
Trains will be relocated to underground storage locations.
Express trains will make all Local stops underground.
Plan 3 - Forecast of ice storm, sleet and freezing rain.
GOs and work trains will be cancelled where needed.
Operate maximum lenght trains on all lines except OPTO lines.
Trains will be relocated to underground storage locations.
Express trains will make all Local stops underground.
Department of Subways Storm Control Center activated.
Local Storm Fighting Centers activated.
All Ice Storm fighting equipment prepared for activation.
Plan 4 - Forecast of snow -5 inches or more.
GOs and work trains will be cancelled where needed.
Operate maximum lenght trains on all lines except OPTO lines.
Trains will be relocated to underground storage locations.
Express trains will make all Local stops underground.
Express service may be discontinued in open areas.
Department of Subways Storm Control Center activated.
Local Storm Fighting Centers activated.
All Ice Storm fighting equipment prepared for activation.
I disagree with the cold weather plans. Because why put Express Trains Local when doing a bad strom? MTA don't do that.
Dominick Bermudez.
The express trains are put on the local track because the equipment normally stored in the yards is stored underground on the express tracks.
-Stef
This was the case last night:
1) M lay ups backed up the West End until 71st Street, must have been 6 8 car sets, all waiting to line up to get into the 4th Avenue Express Track
2) B lay ups already on the express track between 36th and 59th Sts.
3) Several more "B" lay ups going North on the IND subway at Bergen and Carroll Streets.
Anyone know where specific lay ups are u