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People are upset about a Local 100 MOVE
Peace,
ANDEE
Roger is also trying to take the bus folks at the "privates" in a new direction (pun intended). I haven't heard any remarks attributed to Gil, who lost the recent election, on the side of the "private" group, but there has been some heated exchanges within local 100.
As an old Teamster I say, Roger may be just flexing his muscles so that everone knows a new guy is in town. I've also heard that he's been giving the "suits" at the TA some grief too ... good for him, but as everyone knows a new broom wears out quickly.
Mr t__:^)
Sounds like what you'd expect of a radical organization.
-Hank
Most of the leadership is sensible (including one former
regular subtalk poster), but study the history of the
French and Russian revolutions.
We have a official of local 100 here who says Roger seems to be a reasonable guy & hopes, as I do, that he gets tired of flexing his muscles.
Mr t__:^)
"Ortiz denied making the statements. He said he was not a bigot and that he worked his way through college at Jewish delis in Crown Heights, Brooklyn."
Yeah and some of his best friends are jews, too. Recently, mr. ortiz reportedly appeared at one maintenance facility on an off tour with a gang of thugs. Their mission, to intimidate a supervisor who was slated to testify at a disciplinary hearing for a new directions member. This is just one of many instances where organizers have reportedly tried to muscle supervisors and managers. One new directions vice president is already considering resigning because he can not control his organizers.
BTW: in the case that led to mr ortiz's firing, his partner had requested a pair of gloves. The supervisor got the gloves and gave them to mr. ortiz to give to his partner. Mr. ortiz demanded gloves stating, "what am I, gefilte fish?" Later when the supervisor gave mr. ortiz gloves, he (mr ortiz) made a comment about another FUc%$#@ jew with guilt, or words to that effect. However, he was not fired for making the remark as much as after the incident and during the hearing, he showed no remorse for saying it.
If the new direction that Local 100 is going isn't done in a prossesional manner and includes respect for the other side, then the "suits" at the TA will have every right to come down on them hard AND the membership will probally respect the management position.
As a old Teaster I had a lot of managers who didn't like me because I was good, but they still respected me for the way I beat them.
Mr t__:^)
I don't see 'What am I, Gefilte Fish?' as a slur any more than I see 'What am I, Chopped Liver?' a slur.
-Hank
Neither did the supervisor involved. it was the second comment that the supervisor took offense to. However, keep in mind how the courts interpret Title VII cases. It is not necessarilly the intent of the speaker. It is the perception of the recipient (or in some cases a third party) that determines what is offensive and what isn't.
I thought a number of folks here might find this amusing - got a cab tour (rules prohibit geese on pointless arrow motors while in service) from a buddy one of the locomotive shops and was just aghast at how much like the other 40's these things are.
So if you're planning to steal one in the middle of the night or want to throw together a cab in your living room, here's everything you need to know about the beasties, straight from the EMD manual. :)
http://gelwood.railfan.net/manual/f40-manual.html
Amazing the things you can find out there in the dead of night.
Fellow SubTalkers,
I am posting the following note at the request of a friend, George Chaisson, Jr. I think you'll find his note of great interest. If you have any comments or questions, please email him directly at widecab5@aol.com
-Todd
==============================================================================================
Hello Everyone:
For those who may not know me, my name is George Chiasson Jr. (ERA #6400).
My address is 21 Warren Ave. in Rockland, Mass. Phone is 781-878-4778. I
visited New York City, occasionally for extended periods, on a regular basis
from 1979 to 1991. Starting in 1982, I worked with Ed Crew of the Transit
Authority and many other individuals to formulate subway fleet updates,
approximately every quarter or as events dictated. These reports were
largely hand-written at first, then typed and finally entered through a Word
Processor as this was the era before PC's were common, and certainly before
the Internet was prevalent.
The IRT was done first, the B-Division followed in 1985. As new cars were
delivered, older ones retired and rebuilt, and different groups assigned
around the system to combat graffiti, every move was tracked as much as
possible, often using information made available from TA sources, and of
course the New York Division "Bulletin." As these initiatives wound down the
reports did as well, and in the Spring of 1991, if not actually a little
before, I moved on to other venues of interest.
My hope was that someone in New York would pick up the "baton" and keep the
roster updates moving along. In the years since I've noted that while there
is meticulous tracking of bus assignments and rostrer changes by a number of
parties, there seems to be no concerted effort to match this activity on the
NYC Transit subway system, at least not to the degree achieved in times past.
As such, I have felt compelled to step into the breach once again and "go
back to work". As we all know, this is a critical time for such information
on the IRT in particular, as the first few trains of new R-142 and R-142A
cars have already entered passenger service with the aim of replacing the
remaining SMEE fleet in its entirety. As previous, and in a purely New York
kind of way, this task will rarely be accomplished in a direct manner, there
are further reassignments and transfers which add an extra dimension to the
proceedings, and increase the challenge of keeping track of what is where.
I hope to interest each and every one of you in making this a participatory
undertaking, which should foster timely and accurate updates from around the
system. Please feel free to share this concept with others whom you feel
could add something as well. As conceived, the process would be thus:
Roster updates would be distributed monthly, or as required if events
dictated. They will be archived and the most recent posted to the Urban
Transit Club web site. The files will also be made available to the New York
Division "Bulletin" (via Randy Glucksman) for them to do as seen fit. Credit
to contributors will be given at the end of each update.
For incoming e-mail, specifically relating to NYC car assignments and
updates, I have established the screen name Widecab5@aol.com. It is
requested that return e-mail be sent to this area as it otherwise would get
lost in the hundreds of messages received daily.
Attached is a DRAFT of the IRT car assignment for January 27, 2001, as best
as I am able to determine. Please get back to me with comments and
corrections as soon as possible. It would be nice to have this posted at the
UTC web site for February 1, 2001. The information will also be forwarded to
ERA "Bulletin" for use as seen fit.
As I am not yet up to speed on the changes which have transpired in the past
decade, I also have included the "last" assignment from May 23, 1991. That
was the date the final four R-33 cars were released from the GOH program at
207 Street, after which assignments (or at least fleet sizes) were to be
"permanent". You can be sure I will scour back issues of the Bulletin to
recoup long-forgotten or ignored update information, but those of you who
wish to chime in with remembrances of your own are also welcome, as the
Bulletin likely didn't have it all (if anything).
Finally is a general roster of present-day IRT rolling stock, with revisions
for the "Redbird" groups as derived from TA records. There are a lot of
technical unknowns on the Redbirds as well, but that's another issue for
another time.
As Ed Crew is not on-line, he and I will be exchanging phone calls and snail
mails with him frequently. Some of you might wish to do the same with other
persons who do not have access to e-mail. If you wish to share such names
and addresses, I will keep them on file, but the resulting rosters will NOT
be distributed by regular mail (as was the case last time around).
B-Division car assignments in my files have a "Graduation" date of January
29, 1993 (completion of R-44 GOH program). However, as on the IRT I
discontinued the roster updates sometime in 1991. In time I will work to get
a B-Division page as well but I'd like to get the IRT side up and running
before branching into another time-consuming project.
Thanks for your time and consideration, any and all input would be greatly
appreciated, and hopefully this can become a strong representation of history
and reality on the New York subway system.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------
IRT Car Assignments-January 27, 2001
1/9 (Red)-320 cars
320 WH R-62A 2156-2475
2 (Black)-452 cars
256 GE R-33 8806-8835, 8846-8883, 8886-8967, 8970-9075
136 GE R-33M 9076-9113, 9115/9212, 9116-9129, 9130/9225, 9132-
9151, 9154-9215
60 Am R-142 6301-6360
3 and S (Blue)-259 cars
259 WH R-62A 1896-1908, 1910-2155
4 (Orange)-413 cars
10 GE R-33 8836-8845
88 GE R-33M 9216-9223, 9226-9305
315 GE R-62 1301-1365, 1371-1435, 1441-1625
5 (Green)-328 cars
54 GE R-26 7750-7803
56 GE R-26M 7804-7859
50 GE R-28M 7860-7909
50 GE R-28 7910-7959
118 GE R-29 8688-8805
6 (Yellow)-521 cars
118 WH R-29 8570-8687
46 WH WF R-36 9478-9523
12 WH R-36 9524-9535
245 WH R-62A 1651-1895
100 Am R-142A 7211-7310
7 (WH-Black, GE-Yellow)-405 cars
39 WH WF R-33 9307-9345
132 WH WF R-36 9346-9477
22 WH R-36 9536-9557
212 GE WF R-36 9558-9769
------------------------------------------------------------------
5/23/91-IRT Car Assignments
1/9 (Red)-336 cars
336 WH R-62A 2140-2475
2 (Green)-362 cars
54 GE R-26 7750-7803
56 GE R-26M 7804-7859
50 GE R-28M 7860-7909
50 GE R-28 7910-7959
118 GE R-29 8688-8805
34 GE R-33M 9096/9097, 9102/9103, 9124/9125, 9140/9141,
9158/9159, 9172/9173, 9206/9207, 9216/9217,
9232/9233, 9242/9243, 9246-9249, 9274/9275, 9292-
9297, 9300/9301
3 (Blue)-230 cars
230 WH R-62A 1910-2139
4 and S (Orange)-369 cars
54 GE R-33M 9076/9077, 9086/9087, 9090/9091, 9098/9099,
9112/9113, 9120/9121, 9128/9129, 9174/9175,
9180/9181, 9194/9195, 9198/9199, 9202-9205,
9208/9209, 9214/9215, 9222/9223, 9256-9259,
9262/9263, 9266/9267, 9272/9273, 9278/9279, 9282-
9287, 9290/9291, 9298/9299
315 GE R-62 1301-1625
5 (Black)-406 cars
268 GE R-33 8806-8967, 8970-9075
138 GE R-33M 9078-9085, 9088/9089, 9092-9095, 9100/9101, 9104-
9111, 9115/9212, 9116-9119, 9122/9123, 9126/9127,
9130/9225, 9132-9139, 9142-9157, 9160-9171, 9176-
9179, 9182-9193, 9196/9197, 9200/9201, 9210/9211,
9218-9221, 9226-9231, 9234-9241, 9244/9245, 9250-
9255, 9260/9261, 9264/9265, 9268-9271, 9276/9277,
9280/9281, 9288/9289, 9302-9305
6 (Yellow)-441 cars
118 WH R-29 8570-8687
30 WH WF R-36 9494-9523
34 WH R-36 9524-9557
259 WH R-62A 1651-1909
7 (WH-Black, GE-Yellow)-399 cars
39 WH WF R-33 9307-9345
148 WH WF R-36 9346-9493
212 GE WF R-36 9558-9769
An overall roster:
1301-1625 GE R-62 KHI 1983-85
1651-2475 WH R-62A Bomb. 1984-87
6301-6980 Am R-142 Bomb. 2000-?
(6981-7210 Am R-142 Bomb. Option)
7211-7610 Am R-142A Kawasaki 2000-?
(7611-7730 Am R-142 Bomb. Option)
7750-7803 GE R-26 ACF 1960 M-K
1986
7804-7859 GE R-26M ACF 1959-60 M-K
1986-87
7860-7909 GE R-28M ACF 1960-61 M-K
1986-87
7910-7959 GE R-28 ACF 1960 M-K
1986-87
8570-8687 WH R-29 St. Louis 1962 M-K
1986-87
8688-8805 GE R-29 St. Louis 1962 M-K
1985-87
8806-9075 GE R-33 St. Louis 1962-63 NYCTA 1989-91
9076-9305 GE R-33M St. Louis 1962-63 NYCTA 1986-89
9306-9345 WH WF R-33 St. Louis 1963 NYCTA 1984-85
9346-9523 WH WF R-36 St. Louis 1963-64 Various 1982-85
9524-9557 WH R-36 St. Louis 1964 M-K
1984-85
9558-9769 GE WF R-36 St. Louis 1963-64 Various 1983-84
PBS (Public Broadcasting) had an ad in US NEWS about the upcoming show which is scheduled for Feb 5th at 9PM. (check local listings)
The ad subtitle (if that's what it is called) stating.
Sleek... Modern... Fast...
They were the ultimate in travel
Why did they disappear?
Is it a rule that Conductor's must point to the car position boards
before they open the doors in a station?
Yes, silly and chidish, but a rule nonetheless.
Peace,
ANDEE
It is modeled after the "Japanese symbol of safety." Transport employees in Japan do it as a matter of course. It is an acknowledgement that they have determined it is safe to proceed. For example, on the Tokyo subway, the conductor will point AFTER closing the doors, but BEFORE giving indication to the operator to proceed. Then the operator will point AFTER receiving indication, but BEFORE releasing the brake.
Positively! *AND* the Nihonjin are required to point in both directions prior to crossing a track. And the requirement is a point in both extreme directions FIRST (forward and aft) while "out the window" before pointing straight ahead. It's a three point salute. "JR" would have nothing less.
It is humorous to watch though. Meanwhile, whilst saluting oxygen, there may be a nissei caught in the doors that they miss. Whoops. :)
In Japan, before crossing the tracks you must point each way.
Not so silly and childish Andee. There was a RASH of door opening on the wrong side of the train. Yah we can all say those C/R's are stupid or how can you even think of doing that. This rule is simple and quick fix.
I feel though that after a point the C/R is going through the motions. I've seen some flick a finger in the general direction of the board.
I had a friend C/R on the 7 that "they" ran a test on. Pulled in and he was about to point (this is his words) but noticed no board. Just when he was about to go on the PA and ask the T/O if he was at the marker a TSS came up and said "Good Job, this was a test you can open up now". Seems the TSS jumped the gun and would have caught my friend not following the rules for missing the marker board.
He is no longer a C/R didn't like it the job and left.
That's what the TSS was there for. It was his/her job to catch a c/r breaking the rule.
What had the TSS done? removed the board?
BTW in it's original Japanese incarnation (which I was aware of) this works. But the way nyct has watered it down it becomes another meaninglesss rule, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yah they removed the board.
I'm not so sure I agree with this practice. Removing the conductor's indication board sets the stage for disaster to occur. Passengers become potentially endangered.
Leave the boards alone and just have the TSS stand by checking to see if conductors are pointing at them.
This is a typical example of American Management by Mantra
techniques. Problem: your conductors are doing something
bone-headed (opening doors into the abyss). Solution: adopt
one small ritual from an entire system of safety consciousness.
Result: boneheads continue to open on the wrong side, but point
first. You could have told them that they have to say three
hail Mary's before opening, or that they had to hum 4 bars
of the Star Spangled Banner, or whatever. You can't just lift
one component of an entire system (which has a deep cultural
root as well) and expect it to work out of context.
Very well said!!
(Hail Mary's? hehe)
Yes, the Conductor must point at the Indication Board before putting the key into the Master Door Control to open the doors.
When did this practice begin??
About 3 or 4 years ago...
Peace,
ANDEE
At my favorite museum we have no "boards" so the customers point to their feet to get the operator to stop on their mark. Seriously, only museum employees do this.
Mr t__:^)
So I take it 8 and 10 car markers are out of the question too? :)
Well since last Autumn in New York we had a 3 Car Train with no 3 Car stop marker >G<.
Well the 6688 (work) crew has talked about marking spots were it is easy to change the pole around on her. It is hard to get the pole on the wire when going East when all of the pole is over the car body, yes you could backpole (push the pole) but then you couldn't let her RUN! Not that the experienced operators need any type of marking of where to change the pole.
Speaking of which I've seen a certain 1001 operator put the pole up "backwards" with out the asssitance of a 2nd crew person and a "come-along-pole" or whatever the offical name of that thing is.
Dang! Could you just imagine having to do that at 179th street? Yeah, I can imagine that pushing it is just asking for downed wires with a side order of spitzensparken. Almost begs for an actual pantograph, NH style (or original August Belmont "Steinway" style). I just can't picture a consist of three such radically different cars though I have to somehow find the time to get up there for that alone. What kinda speed can you get them up to on that run of yours up there? Really a shame that they can't be powered the way they were meant to be, but I do know that rules is rules. Must be a genuine pain to deal with tho'.
Become a memebr (if your not) go to the members only part of BERA.ORG web site and look at the monthly newsletter "The Tripper" online and see the pix of the HiV-LowV-R9 (not necessarly in that order) running as a train down the line (well shared air only, lead car each way and a 2nd operator in the middle car to follow through on the power) but it was fun!!
Heh. Musta been a dose of "bucky beaver" ... definitely gotta find some time to get down there for the next one. It's just quite a haul from the Albany area (and pricey on the route of the pointless arrow). And R-9's? Used to do them. Miss them. The IRT cars unfortunately I only did as a rider. Definitely gotta find me some time for that.
I'll inline that image below. And how fast did it go?
About as fast equipment today runs on the not-so-rapid transit
division.
Kewl! Now the question remains, is there anywhere on the run where we can go to the third notch and wind her up? Now THAT would be the teats. Still got the shunts? Wait ... my space suit is feeling ... err ... a bit tight. :)
Take it easy, there; if the brakes don't stop you in time, you'll go off the end of the line and "park" your rolling stock in the middle of a residential street. Heck, if we get an R-10 up there, it would take out a few houses, too! :)
Hey, we'll just tell them we're starting to reclaim the old ROW :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Guess I'll have to bring some of that five miles of abandoned rail by my house ... most of the ties are shot but the rail and braids are OK. We'll just tell them that the light rail commuter line they were promised is coming to town. :)
I've always liked the idea of a museum line being an actual live railroad. In the Kingston area, there is a short line called the Delaware and Ulster Railride and at one time, to help finance the line they had considered doing regular runs year round in hopes of enough commuters to pay for it. Needless to say, didn't work out for them, but given that New Haven has a bit more population than Pine Hills, it still ain't practical but yet a bit better of a fantasy. (grin)
Just checked out the "Beach" shot you described. Since there's no shunt rail or bumper, the question begs ... who ... whowhowhowho took one over the end? How often?
No wonder the gate cars have a steering wheel on the front porch. Heh.
That "steering wheel" as you call it really hurt when the train would lurch unexpectedly and you would get thrown against it!
I would imagine so ... I trust most folks can bring a gate car to a smooth stop though (aside from Luciano) ... I remember mention of the brakes being "complicated" in Fischler's "Uptown Downtown" book. What's the deal with those? Manual adjustment from the high side tank to the brake pipe before applying pipe to the plungers? Mention was made of it being some kind of dual braking controls that confused Luciano supposedly and was responsible to some degree for the Malbone wreck (not that speed on a curve had anything to do with it of course).
I've always been morbidly fascinated by what happened at Malbone.
Well, Kevin, come on up to Branford for 'Member's Day'. I'm going to attempt to 'pull a Luciano' with Gate car 1227....;-)
That really gets Karl unnerved!
Hey, has anyone 'popped a wheelie' with an R/T car before...:-)
BMTman
Don't forget Doug, you promised to get me a good picture of 1227 before you pulled a "Luciano" with it!
I really don't believe that you would hurt 1227, especially since it is the only operable "true" gate car anywhere!
Off Topic...Do you have the MTH R-42 D Train, and if so, what have you done to prevent roof distortion from the light bulb heat?
[I really don't believe that you would hurt 1227, especially since it is the only operable "true" gate car anywhere!]
You may have noticed that the 3/4 Ton Crew makes these kinds of remarks from time to time, BUT we wouldn't realy do anything to "hurt" the cars OR the track. BTW, Doug, Lou, Stef & I were part of the Gandy Dancers that changed a lot of ties on a Sunday. Anyhow, if we break it we can't play any more :-(
As trolley operators with a bunch of time under our belts we know the twists & turns of the line well enough to know where we can let the BU have all she'll take AND know when to take the power off so we don't throw anyone off the seats trying to stop at the end of track.
P.S. as a group we're still RT operators in training, so there's always a qualified operator by our side. That's part of the fun too, i.e. pushing the envelope until the "pilot" says OK, that's enough.
You know you have done it just right when the pilot remains seated the whole trip.
Mr t__:^)
You should see us fight on who will get to operate 6688 towards Short Beach, you can run a lot faster outbound then inbound (I think power related). We normaly split each round trip so we all get handle time.
I wonder just how high 1689's bull and pinion gears get up to on a straightaway run.:-)
As for the light bulb heat distortion, one thing I've done with all of my Flyer Alco diesels is replace the 14-volt bulbs with 18-volt bulbs. They're not as bright, but they're not as hot, either.
I've gotten R4's up to just a hair over 60 on CPW ... when the R1/9's ran local against R10's on the express, the only reason why we didn't leave the R10's in the dust was because we had to stop at the next station. But anyone doing an R1/9 race against an R10 would see the R10 lose ground to the R1/9 until you had to put some air into the pipe on the R1/9 ... those puppies could wail with the shunts in place and nothing else could beat them. 1.5 miles of track though just ain't enough to get one up to speed. :)
Got 7 miles of dead straight abandoned track here if anyone wants to string some wire and grab a flatbed ... but we will need the rail polishing car and some braid first.
You mean to tell me the R-1/9s could outrun the R-10s? Say it ain't so!:-) I mean, I used to see prewar E trains gain an edge on R-10 A trains on the southbound run between 34th and 23rd, but since the A kept right on going while the E slowed down, it wasn't much of a basis for comparison.
Let's see - 60 mph would be the equivalent of Bb above middle C (middle line on the treble staff), if not B, in terms of bull and pinion gear pitch. Where exactly did you achieve that sort of speed? The downhill run between 103rd and 110th northbound comes to mind.
Heh. It's so ... if the train had motors. And most of them did. The fastest run was 72nd to 59th though the timers would get you just north of there, 81st to 72 southbound was a goodie as well. Down 8th Avenue as well. The NB on the downgrade was timered so you had to put a bit of sponge on the wheels there but in general, no matter where you were, the original stock always outran the kids by 3-5 MPH at worst. And with the 32's and 4x's it wasn't a fair drop at all. *IF* you had motors.
But yeah, it's true ... and the early R's *loved* it when you'd let them gallop. :)
I know the R-1/9s could move. It's just that my express runs on them were so infrequent I didn't get to savor the sensation as much as I would have liked. There was a grand total of maybe 6 express on them for me, three apiece on the D (CPW) and the E (2 in Queens, one along Fulton St.). I never rode on a prewar A along CPW. The R-10s more than made up for that.
I don't know about the R-32s. They made it look so easy once they got going. You'd think they could outrun the oldtimers, given their lighter weight and all.
Back when I did it, the A was almost uniformly nothing but R10's - you didn't see them anywhere else on the railroad. AA and B were all 32's, CC and D were all R1/9's until there were enough 32's to start replacing the R1/9's for the D but the CC remained R1/9's until they all started to vanish. There were a good number of 42's and 44's for the D since it went to Brooklyn. That seemed to be the rule - if it ran to Brooklyn, it got new cars as quickly as they became available but if it only ran in the Bronx and Manhattan, the tankers did the runs.
The 32's ran pretty fast but we'd usually dust those with the R1/9's. Some of the consists were dogs with bad motors but when you had 9 cars or 10 with real motors, the oldies would wail on the newer cars once they got up to speed. The most noticeable things about the newer cars is that they accelerated much faster than the older cars but settled into a lower running speed. Once the R1-10's caught up with you, you'd eat their dust in the tunnels. But the 32's were much faster on the takeoff.
The way I remember, the R-32s took over base service on the AA, B, and D lines when the Chrystie St. connection opened. I can't really say they "took over" on the B, since that was a new route - unless you take the BB into consideration. I still find it strange that neither the R-32s nor the R-38s had B signs on their original roller curtains. They had B overlays pasted on top of the BB signs. I saw exactly one prewar B train, and it was deadheading past 34th St., bull and pinion gears moaning away at F# below middle C.
As for speed, I once saw a northbound D train of R-32s streak past 81st St., and it appeared to be going just as fast as any other express train of the good old days. You're right about their acceleration rate. I got off a D train at 59th St. one Saturday (after hearing the conductor announce "The next stop on this train will be 125th St."), and by the time the last car whipped past, it was flying.
Bottom line: I just didn't ride the oldtimers on express runs often enough. I envy Wayne (Mr. Slant R-40) in that regard. He says he's been on some R-6/7 F trains in Queens which he thought would become airborne.
IIRC another rule of thumb was to trot out the oldest equipment during rush hours, which was the main reason the oldtimers ran on the CC and E lines in the twilight of their careers (those which remained on the IND, anyway).
Yep, the prewar cars had plenty of pep after a running start. At the time I was split-shifting rush hours so I could always count on getting an armored car at both ends. And yes, where there were enough 32's in the middle of the day that's all you saw pretty much other than rush hours. And they could hold their own as far as the schedules went as long as an air valve didn't decide to go flaky on one of the door panels. If I had a nickel for every time I had to walk the cars at 5:15 somewhere. :)
I don't believe that is the case. Perhaps the R-10s were
simply in a poor state of maintenance and had a higher
rate of motor problems. According to the specs, an R-10
out-accelerates, out-brakes AND out-top-ends and R1-9.
[Got 7 miles of dead straight abandoned track here if anyone wants to string some wire and grab a flatbed ... but we will need the rail polishing car and some braid first.]
Hey, Sel K, if any of those ties need replacing, you can always give me, Lou, or Thurston a holler as we're experienced 'Gandy Dancers'...;-)
BMTman
Oh I'd say most of them need replacing. There was a 7MPH restriction on it last time a loco passed over it ... that's why CP abandoned it in favor of building a replacement that didn't cross CSX. What you see in the picture on the left is the section of track right where it used to cross the CSX mainline north of Selkirk. They cut the rails right where the camera is standing, bent them up into an X and then welded a shunt across them. If you take a look at the ties in the foreground, it's typical of the rest of the 7 miles behind D&H 7307 ... but it's as straight as can be.
And we COULD do a third rail here - there's a substation about 600 feet down the line on the left side with plenty of space to drop a rectifier box. They haven't torn any of it up yet after "tailing" the track so if someone has oodles of excess "dot com cash" burning a hole in their wallet, it would make a WONDERFUL mass transit museum facility where an R9 could gallop ... and level as all getout too.
Great picture!
Yeah, if/when I get the chance to head up there, I'll notifiy the "3/4 Ton Crew" about some serious back-breaking work upstate...
I notice that the ties are SCREAMING for replacements!
BMTman
Heh. They stopped screaming a few years ago. Now they're strangely silent, cold and smelling a bit funny. But it's a lovely line looking for something, anything to traverse it again. Not that there's much of anything on either end of it anymore. It begs for a third rail though.
Who exactly owns this r-o-w?
CPRail, former D&H. It's known as the New Scotland branch and runs from the Kenwood yards in Albany at the Hudson River through Delmar, New Scotland, Voorheesville and into Delanson. It was a two track line until about three years ago and they removed one track then. It's anybody's guess as to when the remaining track goes since there's property taxes on it now as long as the iron remains.
Don't worry Karl....I'm just kidding about "pulling a Luciano" with 1227. She's too fine a lady to "manhandle" her...;-)
Yes, I have the MTH R-42's in D Train markings. How do I prevent roof distortion from the light bulb heat? Simple, I have the two-car add ons and they are currently static display models on my Rapid Transit bookself :-). Hopefully, in the near future, I will get the R-21's, 32's and whatever else MTH releases in regard to NYCT equipment and create an O gauge layout. The bulk of my model railroad stuff is in HO and I used to have a small layout of sorts.
BMTman
Heh. And my motivation to get killed in a wrecked wooden el car would be? (grin) I'm hoping to get the time together IN time to make it on down. But really ... is there some special technique that caused the description of the braking arrangement to be "complex?" Two handles? That's the impression I have from the book having never been in the "cab" of a gate car. While I had ridden on one or two when I was real small on the Myrtle, by the time I became aware of the presence of cabs on subway cars, the Q's had already replaced them.
Since the Q's were former gate cars, wouldn't the braking be the same?
I would have expected so but Fischler's book and other comments seem to suggest that the BU cars involved in the Malbone wreck were somehow "difficult to control" for reasons I don't know ... that was why my question as to whether there were two brake handles involved or just a strange design that required more effort and cognitive capabilities than a standard brake handle ... Big Ed might know the answer when we see him next ...
Ed actually operated "Q's" on the Myrt, so he should know if anybody would.
Another thought might be the fact that the second and third cars of the Malbone train were blind trailers, as Jeff H calls them. IIRC the trailers had hand brakes, but I don't know for sure if they had air brakes.
I'm hoping Ed will know. That question has me most curious. The accounts of the ride along the Fulton El and into the turnoff at Franklin prior to the wreck repeatedly mentioned that Luciano was having all sorts of difficulty properly operating the "complex braking system" and I'm just trying to get a feel of what would cause the "complexity" ... I can understand someone having difficulty with a standard handle if they pull it all the way back out of lapping and into the netherworld just before BIE resulting in a rough ride but in Fischler's book (which has a number of items in it that seemingly defy logic to anyone who has ever actually operated trains) there was this indication that there was two handles involved in operating the brakes and a suggestion that perhaps one hung from the ceiling and the other one on a pedestal or something truly strange about the braking system on those gate cars.
Since the museum has one, if there was something so truly bizarre about it, I would expect someone familiar with them might have an answer to what was so incredibly complicated that Luciano kept overshooting and undershooting the platforms according to the reports. Even dead trailers with no cylinders at all shouldn't have been that big a deal if you have a feel for your train. At least on level el ... I can understand on a downgrade, you'd have to have more of a clue with packed cars. But it's this "complex dual braking" thing that Fischler mentioned that still sticks in the back of my mind as a big "huh?" since I've never encountered anything like that outside of diesels where you'll have a separate dynamic brake handle and an air brake handle near each other on the stand. But I don't believe they had anything like that back in the gate car days. Or did they?
Well it kind of like operating a elevator & a trolley, i.e. Controller is like a elevator & brake handle like a trolley ... brakes come on slow, so you have understand that. She's real easy to operate once you know where to put your finger :-) i.e. to prevent the Controler position from going into emergancy.
Mr t__:^)
Let me clear something up. Fischler is a good writer and
Uptown Downtown is enjoyable, but the technical details are
between muddy and just plain incorrect. Read Cudahy's
Malbone Street Wreck for a better account.
There is nothing at all complicated about the brakes on BU
cars (or Q cars, which are the same). It is a standard
"automatic" air brake, no electric assist. As such, sometimes
an appointment is required to stop. I would say BUs are harder
to brake than AMUE (e.g. R9, Lo-V) but easier than a freight train.
THANK YOU! Yeah, I got the impression from Fischler's book (a wonderful read, but irritating in what I knew to be "not quite right" coming up again and again) that there were two handles from the way he described the gate cars and having never been in the cab of one, had no way of knowing "true or BS" as far as that went. Standard vintage Westinghouse it sounds like - are they all air or is it electric and air like AMUE's? If so, it's probably nothing more than knowing when to apply. If this is the case then, Luciano definitely should have had more handle time before hauling geese - which is pretty much the only thing everybody seems to agree on.
As much as 6688 seems like a nice lady and all, she's still a bit too recent a vintage for me to get the personal hots for. Sorta like going out with a teenybopper for someone of my own advanced decrepidation. :)
There are two handles: the controller and the brake :)
No electric. Schedule AML braking with quick-action and
graduated release.
Read Cudahy's book. It dispels a lot of myths that have been
circulated about the wreck. Mostly, it shows that Luciano was
a competent motorman who lacked road experience, was distracted
by personal matters, and, not being a regular road guy, was
unaware of that new S-curve at the bottom of the hill.
Will definitely grab a copy of that book. That's what I had wanted to know - obviously a controller - I don't go for the idea of the gladstick (since it's forward and back only without side to side, can't quite call it a joystick) with brake and motor on the same handle - the impression I got was that there were two brake handles though I just couldn't see an MU built to operate that way. That's what threw me. And not knowing the territory - any of us who ran trains have been there at least once ... but that answers my main question - how many brake handles on those puppies and what was it that made it so "complex" ... answer, NOTHING. That suffices. :)
Before investing in a copy of that book I would suggest you read the reviews here. Not all of us share Jeff's enthusiasm for the book.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
6688 can easily get up to the third notch. Fortunately, it has the brakes to slow up before the end of the line. There was only one trip where there was a question of whether the car would stop, but it did by a few inches. So, come up and hang on.
Yes, I can vouch for that. Having piloted 6688 under the excellent guidance of Mr. Shavell at the last AUTUMN IN NY festival at Branford.
Peace,
ANDEE
I can also vouch for Mr. Shavell and when he operates 6688, he thinks he is on the through express. For those vistors that have never been on the Lex, Mr. Shavell gives a great experience (you can't do that with no trolley car!).
I'd expect 6688 to be able to - I was actually wondering about 1689. I ran those while with NYCTA and if the motors are there, we're talking serious geese haulage if it's still got the stones. Those things could beat an R-10 if they were working. R9's and LoV's are more my speed. :)
We have to be a little more consertive with the R-9 because of her size & weight. In addition she normally gets paired up with one of the other cars. When car "G" comes back from the TA Museum she'll team up with the BU 1227 ... our RT customers like multi section trains & we try to accomidate them, i.e. the 3 car train that Jeff & company was able to pull off last Fall.
Mr t__:^)
That was pretty much what I had been expecting. 1.5 miles doesn't let you do very much with them (please, no insults intended here) because by the time she's up to speed, she's off the rails at the other end. :)
Sometimes you don't need a lot of speed to realy get a thrill, e.g.
last Summer at Sea Shore when we took turns "assuming the position" on their "A train". Then riding in the two car set ... it was too bad we had a mechanical problem which ment we had to break them apart just outside of the yard limit.
Mr t__:^)
I'd be plenty thrilled just pulling down the bench, having a seat and charging the puppy ... but ya gotta admit, wrapping it and leaving it there for a while until it's up to speed WOULD be a thrill if ya could have it. Those babies could wail ...
1689, when running by itself, can move very well. However, while the line is a total of a mile and a half, the RT cars do not utilize the entire length of the line. We lose about 1000 feet, because the high level platform is in our yard area. By the time we get beyond the yard limit, where we can accelerate, the straightaway runs for approximately ½ mile (Jeff H can give you an exact measurement). However, 6688 has far superior braking. Therefore, we can take it further into the straightaway before we have to begin braking. So, it can attain a higher speed, almost to the full top end when the power is good.
In answer to the question about flat spots: When the car arrived, the trucks were from an R-17 and an R-22. After a couple of years, we did notice flat spots on the R-17 truck. In December of 1992, we had a major flood. As luck would have it, the R-17 truck was the one saturated with salt water in the motors. I worked for most of the summer of 1993 to clean and paint a spare truck, and we placed this under the car. This truck was from an R-15. It has one Westinghouse motor, and one GE motor. The truck we removed also had mixed motors. At the present time, there are no flats.
It's a pity in a way that there isn't enough land or money to acquire land and track it. Granted we should be very grateful to even have that much. But 1689 would be a thrill and a half if it could get up to the speeds they ran at in service just for the thrill of the ride for anyone who never did them when they were on the system. I grew up in the Bronx and thus the IRT was the local railroad but the IND cars made the redbirds and the lines themselves seem dinky by comparison.
[However, 6688 has far superior braking. Therefore, we can take it further into the straightaway before we have to begin braking. So, it can attain a higher speed, almost to the full top end when the power is good.]
Good point Lou. Same reason we can't get 1227 (our prized Gate Car) up to serious speeds -- she does have great acceleration -- because of her lack of quality braking.
BMTman
So the motors match the fans we found installed (GE/Westinghouse) >G
One of the great things that this site has done for me is make me aware of a lot of mass transit related Web sites. I have almost 50 Bookmarked.
The most recent I found should be valuable to the BMTman, heypaul & SubBus Mike ... Bay Ridge Model RxR Club many shots of our favorite cars, e.g. D Types, Standards, Lo-Vs ... enjoy
Mr t__:^)
Opps lets try that again
Bay Ridge Model RxR Club
Mr t__:-(
We all know that misery loves company. Well, if idiocy loves company, the anencephalics on the New York City Council will be positively estatic! Today's Slimes reports that IKEA has decided to scrap its plans for a new store in New Rochelle on account of heavy "community opposition." Congratuations, Westchester County residents, you have just proved your schmuck-iness.
IKEA stores are a sight to be seen. They attract huge levels of business, way beyond what you'll see anywhere else, generating hundreds of jobs and massive tax revenues. Shopping at one is quite an experience, almost as much entertainment as anything else.
IKEA stores provide quite an economic boost to the areas in which they are located. And if there's any place in need of an economic - and moral - boost, it's Westchester. JC Penney's recently announced that it's closing the store at the Galleria Mall in White Plains. While the company is closing about 75 stores throughout the country, many of them are tiny outlets in small towns. At 218,000 square feet, the Galleria store is by a considerable margin the largest one being closed. In another blow to the county's fortunes, Texaco announced that it will close its headquarters in Harrison if the merger with Chevron goes through, eliminating over 1,000 well-paid jobs and dumping 750,000 square feet of office space on a market that's long been struggling with a high vacancy rate.
Going beyond these recent events, Westchester shows other symptoms of decline. Retail sales throughout the county - which is "under-stored" to begin with - have suffered since the Palisades Mall opened across the Tappan Zee Bridge in Rockland County. The GM plant in Tarrytown that closed a few years ago has been demolished and replaced with a park - needless to say, the handful of maintenance jobs at the park are virtually nothing compared to the thousands of high-paid UAW jobs at the auto plant. Urban decay is evident in some parts of the county, most notably Yonkers, Mount Vernon and Peekskill.
All in all, an IKEA store would have provided a nice lift for a troubled county. But don't look for one anytime soon, thanks to a bunch of narrow-minded schmucks.
Peter,
The suburbanites you don't consider "schmucks" were responsible for encouraging over-building and suburban sprawl-style development without any consideration for transportation, water, streets and other infrastructure. Some of this obviously was not sustainable in the long run. A slower, more sustainable growth strategy would have been better, instead of the chaos that ensued as people fooolishly tried to abandon the city, thinking it irrelevant, and now Westchester is paying for its mistakes.
I have a good deal of sympathy for the average joe or josephine who lost his or her job at the auto plant. But economic expansion and contraction is a fact of life. A healthy city core with a less industrialized suburb offers a better model for sustained employment and a good quality of life, and hopefully this is where Westchester is headed. No pain, no gain.
Yeah, but IKEA stores look like friggin' giant boxes. If they did something estetically pleasing about their exteriors maybe there would be less opposition to their expansion.
BMTman
Urban revival? Sure. Let's tear down *your* home, give you 10,000 dollars and tell *you* to go get lost, so we can build an Ikea there. Oh wait, you've lived there all your life, don't want to move, and can't find a new home in the area for 10 grand? Tough shit, we need urban revival. Get lost.
That's what the fight was about. Government tearing down homes so a private company could move in to that location.
Of course, maybe if they'd actually pay the real value of the property, as opposed to less than 1/3 it's value, people wouldn't be so annoyed.
In any case, if Westchester is in such desperate need of department stores and malls, why is the Penny's closeing?
Urban revival? Sure. Let's tear down *your* home, give you 10,000 dollars and tell *you* to go get lost, so we can build an Ikea there. Oh wait, you've lived there all your life, don't want to move, and can't find a new home in the area for 10 grand? Tough shit, we need urban revival. Get lost.
That's what the fight was about. Government tearing down homes so a private company could move in to that location.
Of course, maybe if they'd actually pay the real value of the property, as opposed to less than 1/3 it's value, people wouldn't be
so annoyed.
I suspect you'll have a hard time substantiating the 1/3 figure. As a general rule, government agencies tend to pay slightly above fair market value when condemnimg private property for public purposes, finding that cheaper in the long run than spending prolonged periods haggling about prices. It's unlikely that governments would offer less when condemning property for a private company's benefit; in fact, they might tend to be more generous, as time pressures may be greater.
My guess is that the people whose property was involved had inflated notions of what their property was worth. Westchester's troubled economy can't be good for property values.
In any case, if Westchester is in such desperate need of department stores and malls, why is the Penny's closeing?
Competition from the Palisades Mall. In addition, while I haven't been there in a few years, it was my impression that the Galleria Mall was a bit run-down. And don't forget that Penney's has been going through some tough times nationwide.
"In any case, if Westchester is in such desperate need of department stores and malls, why is the Penny's closeing?
Competition from the Palisades Mall. In addition, while I haven't been there in a few years, it was my impression that the Galleria Mall was a bit run-down. And don't forget that Penney's has been going through some tough times nationwide."
You've just put your finger on one of the symptoms of classic suburban sprawl - malls which cannibalize each other because there was not necessarily long-lasting value in building either one.
As to your belief that developers always pay fair maret value for condemned property, well, don't you think that's a little naive? Esp. in places like Westchester, where some officials can be bought and paid for...
Competition from the Palisades Mall. In addition, while I haven't been there in a few years, it was my impression that the Galleria Mall was a bit run-down. And don't forget that Penney's has been going through some tough times nationwide."
You've just put your finger on one of the symptoms of classic suburban sprawl - malls which cannibalize each other because there was not necessarily long-lasting value in building either one.
The Galleria used to be the big-time mall in the area, back when the White Plains Mall was the run-down mall. I believe the White Plains Mall closed (what's there now?), and then the discount stores at the Westchester Pavilion (I think) opened, as well as the new upscale mall called The Westchester(*). I guess that leaves the Galleria in a shaky niche with a crowd somewhat less affluent than The Westchester.
(* Not to be confused with The Westchester Mall, which was a struggling mall way up by the Putnam County border, now expanded, revived, and called Cortlandt Town Center.)
All shopping centers and malls in Westchester compete against malls outside Westchester that are larger/better, like Stamford Town Center, Danbury Fair, and the new Palisades, as well as Manhattan itself.
The Galleria used to be the big-time mall in the area, back when the White Plains Mall was the run-down mall. I believe the White Plains Mall closed (what's there now?), and then the discount stores at the Westchester Pavilion (I think) opened, as well as the new upscale mall called The Westchester(*). I guess that leaves the Galleria in a shaky niche with a crowd somewhat less affluent than The Westchester.
Another thing about the Galleria is that it isn't a true suburban-style mall with free parking lots. It has a paid parking garage and, if I recall correctly, is on several levels as opposed to the one or two levels of the suburban mall. County residents who want the suburban mall experience can make the relatively quick trip to the Palisades Mall. Those who are happy with the urban mall experience can go to The Westchester. Doesn't leave the Galleria with much of a raison d'etre.
Paid Parking That's what killed Galleria. Here in Syracuse we have the Carousel Center, It's developer, Robert Congel recently CONvinced the county legislature to give his mall an additional 30 year PILOT agreement in return for an UNENFORCEABLE promise to quadruple the size of the current mall Increased sales tax would supposedly result in a "profit" to local government. OK, S*U*C*K*E*R*S, now Syracuse area residents will get no sales tax relief, while surrounding counties will ride the wave of sales tax reduction. This will have the effect of destroying Syracuse's retail economy and Congel will only build a small "Phase 1" expansion which is required by the PILOT, then sell the mall and move his family out of town AND WE"RE SCREWED Never trust a businessman! oh, yes the FOOLS who voted for this thing are TOAST next election day, but that's little comfort to our area which will never recover from the QUARTER BILLION DOLLAR GIFT CONGEL GOT.
(OK, S*U*C*K*E*R*S, now Syracuse area residents will get no sales tax relief, while surrounding counties will ride the wave of sales tax reduction.)
When it comes to county taxes, predators, not suckers, is more like it. New York, like a handful of other Northeastern states and unlike virtually any others, shifts a large part of the cost of social services and Medicaid to the local level. The result is below average state taxes, but sky high local taxes, since the state legislature has no incentive to restrain spending since they foot only one-quarter of the bill. The setup was designed to destroy NYC, when it had all the poor and all the social service bills. Those who fleeced the city and fled to the suburbs didn't want to support those they left behind.
Well guess what! Most of that social service money goes not to the poor but to the formerly middle-class elderly, who give their money ot their kids and then declare themselves poor to qualify for a wide range of benefits -- wider, and far more costly, than anyplace else in the U.S. And the suburbs and certain upstate counties such as Onondaga are aging very rapidly. Up in Onondaga County, $5 of every $1,000 everyone earns is collected in local taxes for aid TO New York State -- a bargain compared with NYC's $13, but a burden nonetheless. Outside NY State, local to state aid is virtually non-existent.
The solution -- COSTAR, with the state reimbursing residents for county taxes that the state itself caused to be collected, but with NYC getting back a lot less than it gis forced to put in (just NYC's luck, it doesn't have a county, but we'll give it a little something if it doesn't complain) and the elderly (who are getting the benefits which cost 85 percent more in NY than the national average) not having to pay at all. Just like STAR, which NYC gets 27 percent of after paying 40 percent of state taxes in lieu of getting its pro-rata share of school aid. Arrrgh!
Well, Larry, we, the taxpayers will get our wallets sucked by this bad deal while our neighboring counties will get the clothing exemption on sales tax. BTW, aren't the bouroughs considered counties?
BTW, aren't the bouroughs considered counties?
Judicial only.
Thanks,Pork
Up here in Mass. counties are always Judicial only. We got rid of county government a few years ago after they started going bankrupt. There is still a county road line in state budget even though we have 0 miles of county roads.
(Up here in Mass. counties are always Judicial only. We got rid of county government a few years ago after they started going bankrupt. There is still a county road line in state budget even though we
have 0 miles of county roads.)
I guess that's the second New England state with no counties, after Connecticut. Here in New York it's gone the other way: outside NYC (which has a combined city-county-school district-etc) government, counties have been taking on more local government jobs for better or (Nassau) worse.
(Well, Larry, we, the taxpayers will get our wallets sucked by this bad deal while our neighboring counties will get the clothing exemption on sales tax. BTW, aren't the bouroughs considered counties? )
They are counties, but no longer have any governmental functions.
As for Onondagas shopping center deal, Upstate politicians, like Downstate politicians, ignore the fact that NEW businesses are the key to regional economic success. They subsidize large, influential existing corporations while taxing and regulating new businesses to death. Heck, the City and State are each kicking in hundreds of millions for a new NY Stock Exchange, just as electronic trading makes trading floors obsolete. Meanwhile, if you open your own new business in NYC you have to pay NOT one but TWO local income taxes.
Somehow, enough people have opened new businesses in NYC despite the burdens for it to survive. Upstate, on the other hand, continues to experience the same losses of older firms everyone does -- Xerox may bite the dust now -- with no entreprenuers to take their place. I can see why Syracuse cut that deal -- it is desperate. The Upstate cities are ceasing to be cities in any real sense of the word, and it's a damn shame. The Vampire State deserves lots of the blame. They ain't killed us yet, but they are trying.
As for Onondagas shopping center deal, Upstate politicians, like Downstate politicians, ignore the fact that NEW businesses are the key to regional economic success. They subsidize large, influential
existing corporations while taxing and regulating new businesses to death. Heck, the City and State are each kicking in hundreds of millions for a new NY Stock Exchange, just as electronic trading
makes trading floors obsolete. Meanwhile, if you open your own new business in NYC you have to pay NOT one but TWO local income taxes.
It's much easier for existing businesses to play the blackmail card. When the CEO of a company that's been around for decades says, in effect, Give me huge tax breaks or I'll take my ball and go play in someone else's yard, there's an immediate threat. People take notice and the politicians are quick to act. Compare that to a company that's announced its intention to open a new facility in whatever state makes the best offer. There's much less of a sense of urgency, because (1) if your state loses, you'll be no worse off than before (not the case if you lose an existing company, of course), and (2) there's so much competition that you'll probably lose in any event.
(Compare that to a company that's announced its intention to open a new facility in whatever state makes the best offer. There's much less of a sense of urgency.)
Then compare that with a new company altogether. The fact is, that one out of every eight business establishments closes or moves out (beyond a county border) every eight years, in good and bad years, in growing and declining industies, in growing and declining areas. It's pretty consistent. The question is, how many new businesses do you attract? That depends on the general tax rate, and the quality of services. NY politicians, however, prefer special deals.
Malls around the country are being hurt by the "big box" stores -- Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Toys R' Us, Barnes and Nobel, etc. They're all stand-alone stores, but with big parking lots and usually, lower prices and a bigger selection than what nall stores can offer.
Even the box store concept has gone a little too far -- Builder's Square went under a couple of years ago, and Office Max is retrenching right now. But unless your mall is in an upscale suburb and can afford to have stores catering to customers who can both afford to shop there and/or are too snobbish to ever get caught in a mere box store, you are seeing customers sucked away to the discount places that in many cases are only a few blocks away from the malls they're competing against.
Malls around the country are being hurt by the "big box" stores -- Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Toys R'Us, Barnes and Noble, etc. They're all stand-alone stores, but with big parking lots and usually, lower prices and a bigger selection than what mall stores can offer.
Big-box stores indeed give malls strong competition in the race for shoppers' money. Even so, if a mall owner is reaching for the Maalox at 3 am, he's probably not worrying about Wally World or Home Depot. No, it's JC Penney's that's giving him a tummy ache. As has been reported in the financial press, Penney's is in fairly rough financial shape. Among other things, they've been hit hard by competition from Kohl's (another one of the big-box stores, of course). The recently announced closure of about 75 stores, including the one in the White Plains Galleria, almost certainly is just the tip of the iceberg. If Penney's ends up going out of business entirely, which is by no means a certainty but is not beyond the realm of possibility, a lot of malls are going to be left with big vacant spaces - Penneys is an anchor in more malls than any other chain, with Sears a quite distant second. With no other department store chains in a major expansion mode, filling the gaps left by Penney's departure, if indeed that comes to pass, would be very difficult.
It's stores like Penney's, Sears and some of the other regional mall-anchoring department stores that have been hit the hardest by the invasion of the box stores, and of course GE just threw in the towel on Montgomery Ward's, but it's past owners were too stupid to jump into the mall trend in the first place and ended up with too many "Big Box" locations in the wrong areas around the U.S.
Stores like Macy's, Nordstrom's and Neiman Marcus around the country still project an upscale enough image, and are able to choose their mall locations selectively enough, to have avoided the problems that Penney's and Ward's have suffered at the hands of Wal-Mart and the other big box retailers.
Yes, but some of this is just stupid mngt. of the store ... take Woolworth, they would still be around today if only they added a drug department ... can you say CVS. Or Caldor, mngt wasn't paying attention to the business, so they are gone now.
BTW, what does this have to do with Mass Transit ?
Mr t__:^)
Mass Transit is tied to urban planning. Therefore urban planning is on topic.
I'll second you on that, Pork. The two are closely linked. Right on!
Stores like Macy's, Nordstrom's and Neiman Marcus around the country still project an upscale enough image, and are able to choose their mall locations selectively enough, to have avoided the problems that Penney's and Ward's have suffered at the hands of Wal-Mart and the other big box retailers.
Upscale or not, Nordstrom's recently went through some rough financial times, severe enough so that it had to curtail expansion plans. As far as I know, the problems were related to poor management rather than competition or defects in the basic business plan. New management is now in place and the recent financial result have been better.
Nordstroms seems to be looking alot better lately.
Arkansas-based Dillard's is going through the same thing right now. They're more upscale than Sears or Penneys, but don't have the same cache that Nieman's or even Macy's does in the larger cities of their target markets in the south and southwest.
Changes should keep them going, since they're not in as much danger from the box stores as Sears of Penneys, but they've curtailed their more ambitious expansion plans for now and are probably going to be more concerned about getting the ledgers back in order for at least the next year or so.
Stores like Macy's, Nordstrom's and Neiman Marcus around the country still project an upscale enough image, and are able to choose their mall locations selectively enough, to have avoided the problems that Penney's and Ward's have suffered at the hands of Wal-Mart and the other big box retailers.
Upscale or not, Nordstrom's recently went through some rough financial times, severe enough so that it had to curtail expansion plans (though no store closures were contemplated). As far as I know, the problems were related to poor management rather than competition or defects in the basic business plan. New management is now in place and the recent financial result have been better.
JCPenney don't seem to do that well. And the products I have bought from there have been of poor quality. It is not if but when Penneys goes out of business. And this if gonna really hurt malls that do poorly already. On LI, that's Broadway Mall and Sunrise Mall that will particularly hurt by the vacant dept. store.
Roosevelt Field, Smith Haven, and South Shore Mall also have JC Penney, but they have a large enough compliment of stores to avoid being hurt too much.
I think that Broadway Mall in Hicksville is destined to close. JCPenney and Stern's are very weak anchors. I think Broadway Mall will be demolished and replaced by a strip mall to surround the Movie theater and Ikea.
A similar small mall, the Bay Shore Mall, which had Stern's and Sears as anchors, closed and was replaced by big box retailers.
JCPenney don't seem to do that well. And the products I have bought from there have been of poor quality.
They may not be doing well, but I've never had quality problems with the clothing I purchase there - some is store brand, but they've also got the best price on Levi's jeans (their regular price is cheaper than Sears' sale price) and a number of other name-brand items. We have also purchased almost all of our linens there - again, better quality than what Macy's or Stern's has to offer at a lower price.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is not if but when Penneys goes out of business.
It seems to be the consensus opinion in the financial press that Penney's will go through some further retrenchment but probably will manage to survive in somewhat diminished form. Penney's operates some very small stores - some less than 20K square feet - in smaller towns mostly in the South and Midwest. A number of these stores were on the recent hit list, and no doubt most and possibly all of the remainder will follow. With some skillful management, the mall stores might be able to make it. Remember that customer preferences change very rapidly. Twenty years ago malls were all the rage. Then big-box superstores became trendy and malls were a bit passe. It's not impossible that the pendulum might swing back toward malls, and Penney's would benefit.
I think that Broadway Mall in Hicksville is destined to close. JCPenney and Stern's are very weak anchors. I think Broadway Mall will be demolished and replaced by a strip mall to surround the Movie theater and Ikea.
You may be right, and in fact that probably would be the best solution. Speaking of Stern's, some people are saying that its days may be numbered. There is too little to differentiate Stern's from Macy's for Federated (their owner) to keep running it as a separate chain. Most likely, some Stern's stores would close, while others would be rebranded as Macy's.
I think Broadway Mall will be demolished and replaced by a strip mall to surround the Movie theater and Ikea.
They're doing something similar to that with the Seaview Square Mall in Ocean Twp., just south of Eatontown, New Jersey. Interestingly enough, MM started out as a strip mall and was enclosed back in the '70s; major anchors are Macy's, Stern's (formerly A&S), JCPenney, and Lord & Taylor, plus a Sony multiplex and The Wiz. Seaview Square was built as a mall at about the same time but - perhaps because it was close to Asbury Park and all its problems, and somewhat farther away from Fort Monmouth - it never really caught on. JCP was an anchor store there for years, as well as Stern's and Sears; at the end only Sears was still open, plus a Value City in the old JCP location. Sears and VC are remaining open while the rest of the mall is demolished; a Target (which will probably put VC out of business) and a Lowe's will be built as separate structures on the premises. There had also been a movie theatre and a grocery store on outlying parcels but those have been closed for at least five years. The theatre will be demolished; rumor has it that a chain drugstore (possibly a PharMor) is interested in the former grocery building.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I do think the owners will eventually do something like that to Broadway Mall. They will probably get big box stores, like Target, Costco, and Barnes and Noble. I think the Broadway mall owners will find that they will make a bigger profit that way. And especially if the Mall at Oyster Bay is built in nearby Syosset, the Broadway Mall as it is will not remain profitable to remain open as it is.
(Speaking of Stern's, some people are saying that its days may be numbered. There is too little to differentiate Stern's from Macy's for Federated (their owner) to keep running it as a separate chain. Most likely, some Stern's stores would close, while others would be rebranded as Macy's.)
Sterns is an awful store: KMART merchandise at Macy's prices. Let's face it, the market for department stores is getting smaller all the time, as stores specializing on one type of good pick off one item after another and stuff in general gets too cheap to sell in something other than a warehouse. In the 1970s, shopping was a form of recreation for bored housewives. Now everyone is busier, and/or has more fun things to do.
The only model is a lot of consumables (food, paper towels) and semi-non-durables (ie. underwear) sold cheap (KMART, WALMART, TARGET, Warehouse Clubs); or lots of services and snob appeal. The only time I ever hear of shopping at a Department store is for presents. It's a good place to figure out what to buy someone else; when you know what YOU want, you go to a store tha sells it, not a store that sells everything.
The intellegent endgame is to either provide for weekly food shopping with a few convenience items thrown in, to drift somewhat upscale, but not too upscale, with less debt, and try to be the last one standing. Any department store thinking expansion is doomed.
The only time I ever hear of shopping at a Department store is for presents. It's a good place to figure out what to buy someone else; when you know what YOU want, you go to a store tha sells it, not a store that sells everything.
Pretty much true, with some exceptions. Department stores do have an advantage for clothes shopping, as the stuff sold in places like Target and even Kohl's isn't quite of the same quality. I suspect that this "quality gap" is more true with women's clothing than with men's. And for any type of hardware or appliances, Sears is the best.
>>>It is not if but when Penneys goes out of business. <<<
That statement is way off base. Penneys recently got a new CEO in the form of one Allan Questrom. He saved Federated Department Stores and Barneys and will do the same for Penneys. He is a brilliant retailer whom I have a great deal of respect for.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well I guess if this new CEO can fix JCPenney's image, and carry more name brands like Macy's than the company can be saved.
Why do you keeping posting threads that have nothing to do with subways or railroads?
We're talking about shopping here, and actually stores and how people shop is an urban planning topic.
I'm not the only one here who posts O/T threads. Besides, I did not start this thread.
John, Don't be defensive with this guy
Dave, Cool it this board is not your personal club unless your last name is Pirmann and if it is then I apologize.
I always liked the quality of Penney's mens' Clothing but as for Jewelry, they aren't up to par. I like Reed's Jewelers (a regional chain that may not be in N.Y.C.)
"As to your belief that developers always pay fair maret value for condemned property, well, don't you think that's a little naive? Esp. in places like Westchester, where some officials can be bought and paid for..."
It's not so naive when you realize that, in every state, landowners have the right to have the valuation of their property decided by a trial. (Although it seems New York State has completely eliminated valuation by jury, while by comparison most states specifically state that landowners have the right to a jury valuation.) With that right in the background, there's a strong incentive to pay full value to avoid going to court and watch a round or two of dueling appraisers.
As to your belief that developers always pay fair maret value for condemned property, well, don't you think that's a little naive? Esp. in places like Westchester, where some officials can be bought and paid for..."
It's not so naive when you realize that, in every state, landowners have the right to have the valuation of their property decided by a trial. (Although it seems New York State has completely eliminated valuation by jury, while by comparison most states specifically state that landowners have the right to a jury valuation.) With that right in the background, there's a strong incentive to pay full value to avoid going to court and watch a round or two of dueling appraisers.
I worked for a major mortgage lender in Connecticut during the middle and late 1980's. Not infrequently, we received notice of government condemnation actions involving our borrowers. Very, very rarely did any of them appeal for higher valuations. Almost all of them were quite pleased with the government offers, and took the money and ran.
They get their money off the top THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE individual homeowner , besides they are usually in cahoots with the developer, I mean, we're talking about Bankers, here. Furthermore who do you think finances these malls In business, STP is the racer's edge SCREW THE (LITTLE)PEOPLE.
Don't dig Westchester's grave yet. It's taxes are a lot lower than Nassau or Suffolk, and its services are just as good (except in the aforementioned cities). It can afford to be snobby about new businesses that employ unemployed low wage workers, because it doesn't have any. NYC has plenty.
I doubt that IKEA would consider a Bronx location, for similar snobby reasons.
Don't dig Westchester's grave yet. It's taxes are a lot lower than Nassau or Suffolk, and its services are just as good (except in the aforementioned cities). It can afford to be snobby about new businesses that employ unemployed low wage workers, because it doesn't have any. NYC has plenty.
Westchester's taxes are a lot lower than Nassau's or Suffolk's. Ten percent, maybe, but that's about it. And it definitely isn't true that Westchester has no "unemployed low wage workers." Just in the lower part of the county, you'll find plenty of them in Yonkers, Mt. Vernon, New Rochelle, Port Chester, and probably some other towns. Besides, IKEA is sort of like Starbucks when it comes to jobs - the pay may not be terrific, but it's a trendy place for young, Gen-X types.
I doubt that IKEA would consider a Bronx location, for similar snobby reasons.
I don't believe that any of IKEA's stores, not that there are a lot of them, are in urban areas. They're strictly suburban.
I don't believe that any of IKEA's stores, not that there are a lot of them, are in urban areas. They're strictly suburban.
Elizabeth, NJ isn't all that Suburban. They'll build where there's room, like an industrial area, and they can build in the Bronx. Cheap land, great highway access. Bronx probably has the most highways of any other borough (with Brooklyn being the loser).
Don't dig Westchester's grave yet. It's taxes are a lot lower than Nassau or Suffolk, and its services are just as good (except in the aforementioned cities). It can afford to be snobby about new businesses that employ unemployed low wage workers, because it doesn't have any. NYC has plenty.
Westchester's taxes aren't a lot lower than Nassau's or Suffolk's. Ten percent, maybe, but that's about it. And it definitely isn't true that Westchester has no "unemployed low wage workers." Just in the lower part of the county, you'll find plenty of them in Yonkers, Mt. Vernon, New Rochelle, Port Chester, and probably some other towns. Besides, IKEA is sort of like Starbucks when it comes to jobs - the pay may not be terrific, but it's a trendy place for young, Gen-X types.
I doubt that IKEA would consider a Bronx location, for similar snobby reasons.
I don't believe that any of IKEA's stores, not that there are a lot of them, are in urban areas. They're strictly suburban.
Ikea's in the heart of Burbank out in Los Angeles, which is sort of in the Twilight Zone between self-standing city and L.A. suburb (which takes in most of the places north and west of the L.A. city limites itself, like Santa Monica and Pasedena)
I don't believe that any of IKEA's stores, not that there are a lot of them, are in urban areas. They're strictly suburban.
I wouldn't consider Elizabeth to be Suburban. Bronx has everything necessary for an IKEA: Cheap available brownfields and numerous highways. The only problem is the Municipal Hall of Idiots has continually rejected Superstore in M zone legislation that would BRING MONEY TO THE CITY AND KEEP RESIDENTS SHOPPING IN THE CITY! Not to mention that some Westchesterites would go to the Bronx.
From what I've seen in pictures and read, Westchester sure sounds alot like the north shore of Nassau county. They don't really have any nice
suburban style malls, and alot of the villages and cities (such as Yonkers and New Rochelle) are in run down shape.
I remember how lousy it was when I went through Yonkers years ago. Glen Cove is a smaller version of Yonkers. It's run down, has little to offer, and seems to have strong opposition to any improvement.
What happened with IKEA is just the kind of thing that would happen in Glen Cove. Sounds like people in New Rochelle are just as bad as in my area. And I remember seeing a story on the news about how a major city (it may be White Plains) in Westchester has no supermarket. It sure sounds alot like the Sea Cliff/Glen Cove area to me. There is a major difference, and that is electrified rail service though. I can see Westchester right across the Sound from Sea Cliff, which is more like Westchester, than Long Island.
I was thinking of visiting Westchester, but forget about it now.
[I was thinking of visiting Westchester, but forget about it now.]
John, I really don't think Westchester is going to miss you. ;-)
But his friends at LI Bus would give him a free Transfer.
John, don't take it personal, we love you ;-)
Mr t
From what I've seen in pictures and read, Westchester sure sounds alot like the north shore of Nassau county. They don't really have any nice suburban style malls, and alot of the villages and cities (such as Yonkers and New Rochelle) are in run down shape.
To a considerable extent, you're correct.
Your North Shore bashing is the ultimate in idiocty. The North Shore is the most beautiful and picturesque part of Nassau County and one of the best on Long Island. In fact, it's the only part of NC other than the barrier islands and the waterfront communities (perhaps some areas near the Suffolk border with which I am less familiar) across the bay from them that isn't skanky, ugly SPRAWL.
People live in on the GOLD COAST because they can afford it (ever wondered why it costs more than Hempstead? People who have a choice actually want to live there). I'm sure that those people in the Coalition to Save Hempstead Harbor understand the lack of public services, but that's why people live in a ruralesque environment. If you hate it so much, THEN MOVE! But stop bitching about it to us.
Glen Cove is skanky too, I still don't get why it isn't more like Locust Valley or Oyster Bay. Or hell, even Great Neck and Manhasset Neck.
There's nothing nice about Glen Cove. LIRR ridership is very poor at Sea Cliff and Glen St. stations, no wonder they tried to close them years back.
Glen Head and Greenvale get more riders. Perhaps those are nicer areas , and there are more commuters.
Kids were play fighting on the Sea Cliff platform today. With no one else around I felt a bit unsafe.
I can understand why someone would want to live in Roslyn, Greenvale, or Great Neck, they are picturesque areas. But Glen Cove and Sea Cliff, yuck!
Kids were play fighting on the Sea Cliff platform today. With no one else around I felt a bit unsafe.
If they were "play fighting" as you say, why were you scared? Are you so antisocial that you are scared of any people alone with you, or any people younger than you?
When one of the kids fell off that platform and on to the tracks, things were getting a bit out of hand don't you think?
They didn't even get on the train when it came. Just imagine if the kid fell in front of the train. We would've had a 12-9 on our hands.
A train platform is not a place for fooling around, period!
When one of the kids [play fighting on the Sea Cliff platform] fell off that platform and on to the tracks, things were getting a bit out of hand don't you think?
They didn't even get on the train when it came. Just imagine if the kid fell in front of the train. We would've had a 12-9 on our hands.
Hey, you would have been able to make a submission to the Darwin Awards!
Note: "A Tale of Ten Cities", Volume One, "Rolling Thunder: The Elevated Railroad and the Urbanization of New York" is a social history of the El which examines the role it played in expanding the urban boundaries of Greater New York. Below is an excerpt from one of the opening chapters.
Eric Dale Smith
"From the moment I first saw King Kong tie knots in a Third Avenue local I was fascinated by the El's size, and by the type of people who rode and built it. I was born ten years after the last of the Manhattan elevateds, the Third Avenue El was torn down in 1955. When Brooklyn's Myrtle Avenue line was shut down fourteen years later I was only four, my interest in the Els still embryonic.
"Now, some twenty-five years later and countless rides on elevated trains in New York and Chicago I had come here again, here beneath the shadows of the Broadway El. For years it had been speaking to me, urging me to tell its story. The last of the lines built in the Nineteenth Century still standing, I was sure that it had much to say, not the least of which was that the more things changed, the more some things remained the same".
By Eric Dale Smith
AmErica House
Frederick, Maryland
Copyright 2000
I have started to see (at least on the N/R line) the new maps with a carveout explaining the 63rd Street Connector. Two problems to point out:
1) Why hasn't the MTA website been updated with this valuable material?
2) The maps show the correct connection for the E/F detour, i.e. there is an extention of the "orange" line beyond the B/Q terminus that is connected to the E/F line. The only problem is that there is no acknowledgement at all of the R detour. The R reroute also flows through the B/Q terminus, but is not properly represented on the maps. In fact, the extention connects beyond the 36th St stop.
Anybody else see this one?
-s
I picked up the Jan 2001 edition of "The Map" at the TM store in GCT yesterday. The connector is represented by a dotted orange line between 21st/Queensbrige and the Northern Blvd. express tracks, and there's a box explaining the off-hour service through it. From this map, the connector does appear to merge-in beyond 36th Street as opposed to before that station. Perhaps once the light green 'G' stripe has been omitted from the Queens IND beyond Ct. Sq., it will be easier to more accurately represent the connector. Once the connector service is official, the new map will be noticably altered with the omission of the 4th line-stripe on the Queens IND. Instead of Green/Yellow/Orange/Blue between QP and 71st, it will be simply Yellow/Orange/Blue. That map will be a keeper, for those of you who like to keep maps, like me.
Another set of maps for the nycubway.org map index!
With only one orange line it will be way confusing around 36th, since the express would have to be shown with a separate orange line after 65th, when it gets to 36 the two lines would have to cross (think DeKalb).
They should use 2 separate orange lines throughout (think Concourse, and 80s Hillside ave line). Using one line, people would think the F was making all the stops.
>>>Using one line, people would think the F was making all the stops.<<<
When I first moved to New York, looking at the transit map, I thought the '4', '5', and '6' served every stop on Lexington Avenue / Park Avenue South. So I got on the '4' at 86th Street heading downtown expecting to get off at Astor Place. That mistake, and a native explaining how I had to look at the small numbers/letters beneath the stop name to see whether and what time of day a particular train stopped there, was the beginning of enlightenment for me about the map's and system's design.
Therefore, we'll have to see whether the orange stripe on the map in Queens depicts Queens IND-6th Avenue service using this method, one stripe, or some kind of 2 orange stripe arrangement.
There will have to be two orange stripes if they want to keep the Northern Blvd express tracks separate from the Steinway/Broadway local tracks. My guess is that the orange V stripe will be below the yellow R stripe and merge with the orange F stripe near Northern Blvd; east of Northern Blvd, the black dot indicating a local stop will be moved down to cover the yellow & single orange stripes.
I crudely edited the MTA map in Paintbrush for a vague idea of what it might look like; I posted it here. It isn't entirely accurate; pay no attention to the 21 St Shuttle or the Stillwell Ave area :).
Pretty cool map, I especially like how the Broadway line seems so busy. Is it true that none of the Bway trains will run express in Manh? If so, it seems like a prelude to a parking lot. The G train looks so truncated though. Sad fate for the Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown oddity (with my favorite line color), but what can ya do?....
Both Q services wil run express in Manhattan.
And the W
What about the poor little N line (me)? Can I have some fun too?
N Broadway Line ---> Express?
Astoria
Hey, you're having your fun now during the station renovations; enjoy it while it lasts ;).
Hahahahaaa.
N Bwy
You Have A Very Nice Map that You Made There. But You Did Just 1 Error On the map. Witch Is.
The N Train go's to coney Island not 86 ST In Brooklyn.
So I Hope You Fix That Error right of way. Ok.
I said not to look at the Stillwell Avenue area! The N cutback was in anticipation of the Stillwell reconstruction, which should also include the F and Q being cut back and only the W going to Stillwell. It wasn't something I intended on maintaining, anyway, just something I threw together for my own purposes when the rumors started flying a couple months ago.
The N Train go's to coney Island not 86 ST In Brooklyn.
So I Hope You Fix That Error right of way. Ok.
YEAH!!!!!!!!!
N Broadway Line
Astoria
I wish they will go back to using blocks as stops and circles as express stops. The blocks are better because they are easier to identify if you're a local passenger. And since both 6th Avenue lines traveling on Queens Blvd (one express and the other local), wouldn't it be easier to use blocks over dark circle to indicate local stops.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
I have seen 9558-9559 numerous times on the 6 and 7 lines. I had noticed that some of the fonts on the number plates of these cars are different from the standard font used by the rest of the R36 cars. Why is this? Was this on any other car, or are these the only two that have them?
I had seen 9550 and 9551. I have a picture of these two cars with the yellow stripe. Upon further inspection of the cars now, the black stripes covers the yellow ones.
I had also seen another R36M car with a black stripe beneath the number plate, but it's of regular width. I think it's 9545, but I'm not 100% sure of that.
Have you at least seen pictures of the R36 cars with th names of states on the side? I was thinking that they should start a car naming program on NYCT. PATH has such a program. For example, PATH car #755 is also known as the City of Hoboken. R36 #9440 is also known as the "State of Rhode Island." The name would be placed in the stripe below the number plate. If the text of the name is too awkward for that, it would be placed below the stripe on another level.
Examples
9440, with "State of Rhode Island" addition.
9658, with "Neighborhood Youth Corps" addition.
9748, with "Commonwealth of Massachusetts" addition.
The original number plates are all the same font. These plates were removed during the graffiti craze of the '70s and were replaced with "stick-on" type numbers. These numbers were not made nearly as well as the originals, became rusty, and in many cases, peeled off. So, some were redone, some were painted on, etc. If you look at the redbirds on the number 5, for example, you'll see what I mean.
I've seen R-36 Nos. 9558-9559 a number of times and have noticed that the font for the numbers is sifferent than most of the rest of the cars. I also think that several other R-36s have a different font for the numbers on the number plates.
BMTJeff
There are only 2 ML R 36 cars that have the Corona stickers on them they are 9554 and 9555 1 side of 9555 still has Pelham stickers while 1 side has corona stickers. 9550 and 9551 have black stickers some one spay painted them black. Those are really Pelham stickers. If you get a close look you can see how big they are. Missing mainline cars on the 7 line are as follows: 9540 9541 9542 9543 9546 9547 9552 9553 9556 9557. I would assume they are getting their stickers changed. 9558 and 9559 were never on the 6 line those 2 are GEs the 6 line only uses Westinghouse cars however back in 1996 9558-9569 (12 cars) did leave the 7 line to go to the 4 line. They are back from the 4 line where they belong on the 7 line.
That was a typo. I meant to say "9548 and 9549," like it says on the subject line.
The numbers on 9548 and 9549 are almost handwritten.
#9314 also has a "stick on decal" number that is falling off - or is melting from the heat.
flx7595
They tracked down a murderer by checking SEPTA's computer records of where and when he swiped his Transpass.
Inky Article
I've never seen the real use behind having the male/female distinctions. Until '95, you were able to cover that sticker over with your finger when you swipe it. But still, in a pinch, I've used my mom's Transpass and never got stopped for it.
"I've never seen the real use behind having the male/female distinctions."
Old commuter trick: cut your monthly commutation ticket in half vertically, keep one half and give the other half to your wife for shopping trips into town. Always keep the ticket in a wallet so that the half sticking out of the pocket looks like an intact ticket. When the conductor is checking tickets, just flash your wallet. Unless he asks you to pull the ticket out, you're home free and have two tickets for the price of one.
The solution was the Male/Female thing. That's why the male & female are in the two top corners of the ticket: if you cut the ticket down the middle, only one half will have male or female properly marked.
You can still cover the sticker with a finger and swipe it. The vendors are still putting the sticker on such that this can be done.
I have to confess that I infrequently misuse transfers (same route, expired time, double-punched, etc). The level of operator observation of this is very low. I have yet to be challenged when I do this (and I usually am ready for the challenge - I'll pay the fare without argument and play dumb). I've advised SEPTA about how transfers are misused this way. It still happens. I think that most operators don't know and don't care, unfortunately.
Maybe you told SEPTA shortly before this incident:
At my old job, one of my duties was to pick kids up from school and bring them to an afterschool program in Center City.
I had to pick up from 2 schools, one in North Philadelphia and one in Univeristy City.
Once I picked up the North Philly kids, we got on the BSS to connect to the trolley to get to the University City school.
Making a long story short, once I picked up the UC kid and tried to get the trolley back into CC, I was told I could not because I had a transfer from the BSS and I was getting on at a stop nowhere near that line. Fortunately, the operator took pity on me and the 3 little ones and let the two North Philly kids on gratis.
Guess there are a few sparks of humanity in SEPTA employees.(BTW, this incident is not the reason I no longer work there:)
There are some sparks of humanity, but there are still the 'raging fires' of the same old 'who cares about the riders' attitude. Witness the snow problems on Tue morning this week - TV says service is running normally with some short turns. Unfortunately the street supervisor in Roxborough decides to ignore the snow routing and sends all 27's on Ridge Ave instead of Henry, even though Henry was clear and passable. Result - many, many stranded (and pissed) riders who were told that the bus service was normal. This isn't the first time this has happened, again despite SEPTA's well-publicized snow emergency routing network. I was later told the operators didn't want to 'risk' Henry, even though almost all of them deadheaded outbound along it to reach the Cathedral turnaround, where they were cut back and stacked until the supervisor could make his decision.
Suddenly I don't feel so bad about 'passing bad transfers'...
Just received my monthly newsletter. SATURDAY APRIL 28 is members day. As a new member I'm looking forward to going up and seeing some of the ST/BT guys and piloting 6688. For those of you who aren't members I urge you to sign up, come up and have a great time. The museum is not open to the public on members day.
[The museum is not open to the public on members day.]
But, it's family day ... bring the kids for hot dogs & such ... look over old photos, reminisce ... and get there early for a ticket that will let you get a little handle time on your favorite car.
Last year a group of tin lisleys stopped by ... they fit right in with the trolleys.
The R-17 didn't get her new coat (of paint) yet, but loyal fans won't mind because she glides down the road just the same. There was a nice photo in our newsletter from Autumn in NY days inside the R-17. It looked like a average day on the system in NYC (folks with their kids sitting on the seats), except there was this big group of folks at the front window. The caption said "guess which way the train is going"
P.S. That same issue of our newsletter invites folks to attend the trolley operator training classes in March. This operator put in 100 hours last year taking happy folks for a ride, plus about the same with the R-17 or on the line doing track work ... it was a labor of love.
Mr t__:^)
I can't wait, I know what two cars I'm signing up for (if they don't change the process from last year). 6688 and 2001 and I pray I can drive 2001 FOWARD, it seems I'm always moving it backwards and I think I've actually moved it foward a total of 100 feet.
Now that the wife's a member, we have to work on her getting handle time!!
Well, it's kind of fun driving a PCC backwards, especially in the dark where if it wasn't for the BMTman in shot gun position I would have had absolutely no idea where I was going. I can see it now ... Dee slow down, no no the other peddle quick because we're running out of track.
Mr t__:^)
Well, I'd just be happy getting a FULL-RUN this time on 1227...the prettiest gal in the R/T fleet at Branford!
Also wouldn't mind getting to take 1689 down the line.
(Ouch! I expect flamage from Stef any second now...:-)
BMTman
We'll only let BMTman drive 1227 if he promises to change his name to Edward Luciano and promises to proclaim "Look ma, No hands!"
What?!?! Holy @#$@!!! Shame on you. The prettiest gal in the fleet still remains 6688. She gives those old ladies (1227 and 1689) a run for their money....
-Stef
...but until 6688 gets a fresh coat of paint...I'm sorry but 1227 takes first prize -- hands down...
BMTman
You see it happened again, now both the BMTman & I have fallen in love with this old wooden Brooklyn elevated car. I particularly like her back porch & they way she glides down the line so effortlessly.
Mr t__:^)
This sounds like a new variation on the Brighton/Sea Beach debate.:-)
You'll just have to give my regards to good old 1689. And 6688, too.
If we had dual tracks we could have a race, however the the 3 car subway train that they made up for Autumn in NY was almost as much fun. Seriously we've come to enjoy all the stuff up there, even the trolleys ... ding ding.
Mr t__:^)
6688 would probably blow anything else off the track in a race. You'd have to pit it against another SMEE car to be fair.
At Shoreline, doesn't a former North Shore interurban cars have HT couplers ? What type of braking ?
At Shoreline, doesn't a former North Shore interurban cars have H2 couplers ? What type of braking ?
It has AMU braking with, I think, an M-19 brake valve.
I don't know what the coupler designation is. It is not
H2. More like a radial knuckle coupler.
Now, if B&QT had been smart, like Baltimore Transit, they would have insisted that a backup control had been installed. BTC, one the first 3 PCC operators in 1936, refused to buy the PCC unless it was equipped with a backup control. The ERPCC modified the PCC wiring harness and control specs to allow the instalation of a backup control. Every single end streetcar operated in Baltimore had a backup controller, from the semi-convertable rebuilds of 1929 to the Peter Witts of 1930 to every PCC. Putting the operator of a car that is being backed up on the end that the car is moving to is one of the greatest safety features on a streetcar ever invented.
Other cities also had backup controllers on their PCCs. Chicago did.
Yes, but Baltimore was the pioneer. A.T. Clark, the BTC's Superintendant of Rolling Stock & Shops and John B. Duvall, Supt. of Transportation were opposed to having ANY single end cars without a backup control. So, BTC, while interested in the PCC, and wanting to modernize a system, got the ERPCC to modify the wiring harness and the control equipment to allow the introduction of a backup controller on the PCC.
Baltimore, Chicago, Cleveland, Washington, Los Angeles, Kansas City Minneapolis and San Deigo all specified the backup control.
Boston, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Brooklyn, St. Louis, Cincinatti and Toronto did not. Philadelphia also disabled the backup controllers on their ex-Kansas City cars.
Try to back up a PCC while looking through the back window of an Air-Electric PCC is about as difficult as it comes. An All-Electric isn't much better. I've done both, and it ain't fun. Give me a backup controller every time for a backup move.
We use "arm strong" back up Controllers, i.e. someBODY we trust in the back seat, as we have no turn around, so it's always a 2 man crew ;-)
Since it only comes out on special days there is extra crew available.
If we want to offer this "modern" trolley to the public on a regular basis, then we would probally get our Brillinner PCC, #8 from SEPTA fixed up ... mostly mechanical ... she's in pritty good shape inside. It's like the "Dallas Car" double enders. I think we still have one Dallas Car left (one was traded).
Mr t
Sorry Thurston, no more Dallas cars. Try Seashore or Warehouse
Point for some Dallas car displays. Our one and only
was traded to the, um, Hummelston & Middletown, I think is
the name, railway / preservation group. This was back in the
early 1990s. We indirectly received SEPTA Master Unit 84 in
trade.
Brilliner #8 is not considered a PCC as it was not built under
license from TRC. It shares many components with a PCC, such
as lighting and controls, and has a PCC-like body style, but
the trucks are a unique Red Arrow / Brill design. This has made
it very challenging to re-gauge.
Although the body is pretty, it's another story when you look
beneath the paint. There is a lot of hidden damage from years of
service with water seepage along the letterboard, beltrail and
post caps. A fair weather car.
I think you mean 1001.
Jeff, I think Lou was right.
2001 will be the new number designation after 3/4 Ton Crew makes some modifications to 1001. We're going to add a shirt to her, and add a lightning-bolt style racing stripe down the side....just kidding....I think....;-). And to keep the PCC true to it's name, we'll add a PA-voice announcement that will based on the voice of 'HAL 9000'.
BMTman
Yah Yah, I did another type-O, I get one once a year. You guys still didn't let me live down 4373 or was it 4375 or 437??....
I can see when I'm 104 and we have an R142 I'll derail it because I typed the wrong thing into the computer...
Yeah! And I might miss it (unless I can get a day off) since I now work on weekends effective 2/17/01. But in my absence, I expect the rest of you to have a great time. 6688 really rocks. Oh well! I'll have to give myself some handle time on the car these last two weekends that I'll be there before starting work.
-Stef
Looking forward to joining you... can't believe that I haven't made it up since LAST member's day... 629, here I come!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Looking foward to it also. I'm making sure I don't work that weekend.
Paul
How about 316 ... velvet seats, 4 vs. 8 wheels & a great big brake handle (no air assist) ... now I would pay to see you doing that !
Well even put Mouse Jr on the back porch just to adjitate the car a little ... just a little for the fun of it.
Mr t__:^)
I operated that one last spring too... loved the brake handle (it wasn't hard at all), hated the bouncy ride. My hat's off to the true craftsmen who restored that beauty.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here is your chance to see your name on the web! We need one or more volunteers to do a station-by-station of the Shore Line East from New Haven. We already have New Haven so all we need is a description of the other stations." EX: Station red has two high wall platforms, four tracks and a crossover. the remains of a low island platform were seen between the inner pair of tracks. Of course, you'd fill int eh name of your station and what is actually there. Send it to me to review and I'll forward to Dave.
A station-by-station for NJT's MidTOWN Direct,Northeast Corridor and North Jersey Coast ahs been submitted to Dave as has the New Haven line (including New Canaan, Danbury and Waterbury branches). Pictures have also been submitted for Stamford, New Canaan, Danubry, Waterbury, South Norwalk, Bridgeport,Fordham, New Haven and University heights.
I can not do the Shore Line due to limited service and problems getting to Grand Central from NJ without leaving the night before. Help us finish the CT COmmuter Rail pages.
Good article on the effect jumpers have on Train Operators
Peace,
ANDEE
There is a NY Times article today, I've lifted a few comments for us to talk about:
"When Mr. Conway was appointed M.T.A. chairman in 1995, he was seen as the consummate loyalist to Gov. George E. Pataki. Nothing has changed that view. Even as Mr. Conway's critics note his courtly, polite manner, they assail policies on his watch, like allowing the state to stop its longstanding practice of contributing to the authority's huge capital programs and leaving the agency in a mountain of debt, so much so that a major fare increase may eventually be necessary."
"Mr. Conway, however, is satisfied with his work, forcing the agency to try to do more with less money. I am carrying out the governor's transportation policy," he said, leaning back in his chair. "He has a great vision that I share."
Leaving the agency with a mountain of debt is Pataki's great vision ?
I think Virgal did a respectible job, which would have been much better had Governer Pataki not withheld the money he needed to do it.
So, I blane George more then Virgal or Larry for the debt legacy.
Mr t__:^)
You're absolutely on the money, Thurston. Conway did what he could while doing his boss' bidding. For anything to change fundamentally, the Governor would have to OK it.
From the start of the MTA under Rockefeller, the city and the suburbs have been forced to fight for their shares of inadequate funding. I haven't checked recently, but in the late 80's and early 90's, the funding favored the suburbs.
The other problem (which probably will never be resolved) is that the costs in the NY area are so high that federal funding will never make a real contribution.
Right on the first; not necessarily so on the second (all depends on the skill in obtaining Part 21 dollars).
That's why the Guv. hired a banker to do the nasty...DUH
Peace,
ANDEE
That's why the Guv. hired a banker to do the nasty.....DUH
Peace,
ANDEE
Additionally, as I have said before, Virgil built all of his success on groundwork that had been laid by Peter Stangl, a TRUE transit professional. Virgil won't be missed. Chris Boylan is the person that REALLY runs the MTA anyway.
Peace,
ANDEE
Repeat after me, "Because of the Conway-Pataki Debt."
The statement to used in answer to any of the following questions for the next 30 years.
Why are fares going up?
Why are wages falling behind inflation?
Why is service being cut (not increased)?
Why aren't new lines being built?
Why aren't spare parts being ordered?
Why isn't the trash being cleaned up?
Why isn't the graffiti being cleaned up?
At least we voted down the damn bond issue.
The bond issue might have been one of the few components that was actually equitable (spread costs more fairly among city/non city dwellers)..
(The bond issue might have been one of the few components that was actually equitable (spread costs more fairly among city/non city dwellers)..)
The non-city portion was for construction. The city portion was for a study. We didn't get the Second Avenue Subway when actual bond issues were passed for its construction, in 1951 and 1967. Do you actually think we would get a subway after passing a bond issue to fund a study?
They're borrowing $20 billion over five years (including the refinancing) for the kind of routine stuff (buying cars, replacing X amount of track, etc.) that in a community that cared about the future would be considered operating expenses, and funded pay as you go. Were it not for this fleece and flee policy, that same $20 billion could have built Second Avenue and the LIRR to GCT, completing the original MTA plan, and (if we weren't so ripped off by contractors) much else besides.
Larry, you possess the same good sense that led everyone from the Conservative party to this liberal to oppose the bond issue last November. Don't bond for studies,bond for concrete and steel.
Carlos Diaz, who killed 4 people when he pushed his ex girlfriend's car into the path of a freight train near Reading (PA) last April was sentenced to 20 to 40 years for each conviction, to run consecutively. No chance of parole for 80 years. Story in Thursday's Inkie.
Thats it he should get life.
80 years no parole is life.
He'll almost suely be in jail for the rest of his life. He should have received for consecutive life sentences for the crime.
BMTJeff
If he has four consecutive 20 to 40 year sentences (since he has an 80 year minimum), he will serve, if he is never parolled, 160 years! Nobody lives that long!
He'll almost suely be in jail for the rest of his life. He should have received four consecutive life sentences for the crime.
BMTJeff
(Reading from the title of this thread)
Well. That's what he gets for murdering a train! We don't take kindly to that here!
(Sorry. Couldn't resist!)
;-D Andrew
"Well. That's what he gets for murdering a train! We don't take kindly to that here!"
murdering a train? What a cold blooded comment. That frieght train probably received a couple of scratches compare to the vehicle that was involved.
Let say the train was heavily damaged in the accident. At least the train could be replaced. What about those 4 people who was in the car? Can their lives be replaced? The answer is an absolutely no.
So the hell with the TRAIN. Sorry subwaytalk, but I had to say this.
N Bwy
It was a pun made on the ambiguously-worded subject heading ("Train murderer;" i.e., one who has murdred a train)...
Uh..Sorry. That was just a REALLY bad pun. It was late and I was in a silly mood. I appologize to everyone on Earth for that.
Andrew
Don't apologize. It was a humorous spin on an otherwise bad situation.
Hahahaahahaaahahaaa.
This is why he should be called The Grade Crossing Killer.
Can someone tell me what the origins of Candace Wertz's. And, what in the nerve is a 8,000-ton freight train traveling at 57 m.p.h.?!!! I thought the most these train can go is 30/40 miles an hour?
N Broadway Line
Astoria
"And, what in the nerve is a 8,000-ton freight train traveling at 57 m.p.h.?!!! I thought the most these train can go is 30/40 miles an hour?"
The idea that all freight trains are slow is a common misperception that arises when people see trains going relatively slowly through street crossings in urban & denser suburban areas. Intermodals -- LONG trains carrying shipping containers ("stack trains" because the containers are usually stacked one atop another) or truck trailers ("pig trains" because the trailers are riding piggyback) on flatcars -- are high priority trains for the railways. They are assigned several powerful engines and can routinely reach 70mph on long, straight stretches of track as in the West.
Here in Chicago, many of the rail lines heading out of the city, especially to the north and west, are straight and relatively flat. It's common to see intermodals flying along at the speed of commuter trains on the UP-West and BNSF lines.
Plus they don't have any field shunt modifications.:-)
"They are assigned several powerful engines and can routinely reach 70mph on long"
OH MY GOD!!! HOW DO THEY MANAGE TO STOP THOSE TRAINS WHEN THEY TRAVEL AT THOSE HIGH SPEEDS?!
N Broadway Line
Astoria
>>> OH MY GOD!!! HOW DO THEY MANAGE TO STOP THOSE TRAINS
WHEN THEY TRAVEL AT THOSE HIGH SPEEDS?! <<<
By applying the brakes constantly for about five miles.
Tom
This train was not an intermodal. If you look at the accident pics you'll see tank cars so it was either a general freight or a unit train of some type (oil or sulfer). The line where the accident occured was the NS Harrisburg Line (former Reading Lebanon Valley branch) and is the key NS east west route seeing 50-60 freight trains a day. The line is being upgraded to Rule 261 signaling and many parts are flat and straight. As a rule of thumb the typical linespeed for freight trains is 50-60 mph on signaled lines w/ 140 pound welded rail.
Maybe I'm too western but then I felt the same when I was an easterner. After a quadruple murder which obviously took some thinking to execute..oh..that word..execute was the only proper punishment for the crime.
I know some say life in prison is worse,I think such people should get exactly what they perpetrate. The PA taxpayers will be supporting this clown for 80 years unless the jailbirds get him first.
Sorry if I rub some people the wrong way. I always think of the victims and their loved ones.
Bubba will deal with this lowlife soon enough, I'm sure. Does PA have the death penalty? If so, it should have been pursued.
Bubba will deal with this lowlife soon enough
WHO?
Too bad the scum didn't do a federal crime, DUBYA, not BUBBA would would take care of him. Yo, Bu$h, this piece of dirt delayed a train (Interstate commerce) so would you send Ashcroft and your supremes over to hook him to the catenary. Actually, conservatives are right about a lot of things, this is one of them.
I have seen several individuals who would qualify for the title of BUBBA, and they would scare Hulk Hogan to death - no kidding!
Moral of story - do not go to jail.
Does PA have the death penalty? If so, it should have been pursued.
It does and it was. The jury found him NOT GUILTY of first degree murder. They only found him GUILTY of 4 counts of 3rd degree murder each with a sentence of 20-40 years. Unlike Texas PA has a fair legal system where defendants have to be PROVED guilty. Perrish the thought.
The death sentence became inappropriate when a "witness" testified that she was at the scene waiting for the train, saw the whole thing happen, and didn't see the defendant push the car into the path of the train. This introduced enough "reasonable doubt" that it made first degree convictions difficult. PA has the death penalty, but PA isn't Texas. When the guy gets out in 80 to 160 years he'll be too old to drive, so he shouldn't be a risk to repeat the offense.
>>> This introduced enough "reasonable doubt" that it made first degree convictions
difficult. <<<
If the above is true, it is a perversion of the legal system. If there was really any reasonable doubt that the defendant caused the deaths, he should have been acquitted. A reduced sentence indicates the jury was not able to determine if it was planned or a spur of the moment thing.
Tom
The Jury had reasonable doubt of 1st degree murder. They aquitted on that and found him guilty on 4 counts of 3rd degree murder. Basically the procution proved he had been chasing her around and intending to do harm. He was why she got hit by the train weather he pushed her car or not.
He is now set for the rest of his life - a bed, three meals, free clothing, a gym, free schooling, no need to worry about income taxes, all bils paid, cable television, a job if he wants it, library, free legal advice, free medical and dental care, no need to worry about burial expenses.
Except that he gets to see 3 walls and a set of bars for the rest of his life, plus somebody's going to run every little aspect of it from now on. He can't get up when he feels like it, can't ever have a private phone any more, gets to see anyone who visits him from behind a bulletproof glass wall and talk to them through a telephone.
His life is not has own from now on. All because he couldn't let go of somebody who was through with him.
You forgot to mention that his sex life will be drastically changed for the rest of his life, and he had better not complain of a headache, because there are no excuses from now on, period.
he had better not complain of a headache, because there are no excuses from now on, period.
"Period," hah hah!
You got it, didn't you? But it serves him right. And referring to another post, BUBBA will be waiting for him - EAGERLY.
You got it, didn't you? But it serves him right. And referring to another post, BUBBA will be waiting for him - EAGERLY.
>>> He is now set for the rest of his life - a bed, three meals, free clothing, a gym, free schooling, no need to worry about income taxes, all bils paid, cable television, a job if he wants it, library, free legal advice, free medical and dental care, no need to worry about burial expenses. <<<
Gee Doc, you make it sound so good. Where do I sign up. Is this why our prisons are so overcrowded?
Tom
I know one thing. I'm not worrying about MY burial expenses, I won't care. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I intend to have my head cryopreserved, and the rest of my body donated to science (by late this century, organ transplantation will surely be obsolete).
That is to assume that people aren't immortal by the time I would otherwise die of something.
I'm asking which trains run through the 63rd Street connector because I want to ride through the 63rd Street connector one of these days just for fun. I don't have the latest edition of "The Map" at this time so I don't know which trains serve the 63rd Street connector at this time.
BMTJeff
Nothing on weekdays. Right now it's the F on weeknights after 10PM and on weekends. But the E and/or R might run there instead of or in addition to the F in future nights and weekends. Starting in August, the F will run that way at all times.
:-) Andrew
MisterK and everybody else:
Thank you for the information.
BMTJeff
There is no "regular" service through the connector at this time. Only GOs and the like.
Peace,
ANDEE
However, there are a lot of GOs currently. Check the MTA Diversions and you will see that the R and F are running a regularly scheduled set of runs through the new 63 St. connection to the Queens Blvd Line.
I hope you do. The stations are quite handsome.
Yeah! They may not be wonderful for style, but they're CLEAN! Looks like another subway! Or a New York from Superman's BIZZARO WORLD!
;-D Andrew
They're great for design too. The curves at Lexington, arch at Roosevelt and high ceilinged 21st Queensbridge. Each of these have presentable ceilings, full elevator access and one flight escalators.
The tiles and walls are pretty clean and sleek, especially at Roosevelt (my favorite designed stop). It looks like the subway of the 21st Century. Even those R-40s look like the most sleek and futuristic of the NYC subway cars from the outside. From the inside, dull and utilitarian.
It's like somebody took an R-38 and gave it a brand new exterior...
Because the train design was young, and without an aged interior, it wouldn't have the maturity and perspective necessary to be a train.
At the present, the B and Q still serve the 63rd st. line. Soon, the F will run through there, although those red and white service notices have pointed out that some nights E and F trains are going through there
FYI, as of November 2000, all normal "B" service (NOT shuttle) is via Central Park West to either 145 or Bedford Park.
There is still a shuttle, but with the G.O.'s lately, I am unsure how that affects shuttle service.
New schedules reflecting this are here:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf/tbcur.pdf
On the weekends, B trains still go to 21st. or at least that's what the site said
That's not true. B trains on weekends go to 145th st or sometimes to Bedford Park. It went to Bedford last weekend due to construction.
I didn't know this, the website doesn't mention this. I wonder: will central pk. west get this service all the time now? that'd be great, as it would increase service on weekends.
Once the bridge swap occurs the northern half of the B will be weekdays only to 145, rush hours to Bedford Pk. It will be 8 60' cars long, I think.
The B consists will be 8 R-68s.
Peace,
ANDEE
"I wonder: will central pk. west get this service all the time now? that'd be great, as it would increase service on weekends."
My point in the earlier post, Central Park doesn't need that type of service. In other words, too much service for too few people. My belief is the B should replace the C since the A duplicates the C entirely.
And what would you do about Brooklyn local service? There's no place to turn the train past Jay St, and you can't turn it there because of the problems it would cause. The B will eventually wind up going to 145st mid days and when it is not a shuttle.
-Hank
It can be the way it was before they switch the B and C. This also could include making the A making local during the Weekends. The only change would be the B going to West 4th Street on the upper level. Another alternative would be to Run the A local on the weekends (I know most folks won't go for that), or just run the B to 168 using the 6th Avenue route. The E already serves the 50th Street Station. The only problem is, if someone using the 50th Street station wants to go uptown, there will be no C "uptown service. But there is a way out of that. Take the E from downstairs one stop, and then take the B.
But still, I don't think Central Park West warrants (B and C) that type of service.
N Broadway Local
Astoria
"FYI, as of November 2000, all normal "B" service (NOT shuttle) is via Central Park West to either 145 or Bedford Park."
To reserve subway resources for other projects, I propose to have the B service replace the C on the Weekends to 168th Street. It makes no sense to run both trains through Central Park (indeed a waste of public resources).
The new B line could become an 8th Avenue line. It would switch onto the local track from Broadway Lafayette to West 4th Street going on the upper level. Then making C stops all the way to 168th Street.
N Broadway Line.
What other projects? What would you do to all the Brooklyn C riders?
In any case, it's a moot point until the Manhattan Bridge construction is completed in 3 years.
-Hank
The can take the A which will serve those stations.
N Bwy
There's a reason they implemented the express service.
-Hank
Heading southbound it is impossible for an 8th ave line to use the Manny B. Northbound it is possible.
It is certainly possible.
Just look at This map
No it isn't. There's no crossover from the southbound 6th Ave local track (the only track accessable from 8th Ave) to the southbound express track (the one that goes to the Manny B) between W 4 St and Broadway Lafayette. Check the Downtown Manhattan track map.
"No it isn't. There's no crossover from the southbound 6th Ave local track (the only track accessable from 8th Ave) to the southbound express track (the one that goes to the Manny B) between W 4 St and Broadway Lafayette. Check the Downtown Manhattan track map."
I got it. The connection can only be made to the F, not the F and than the express tracks to the bridge. Strange, the E was doing this diversion some weeks ago with no problem. But this isn't the Manhattan Bridge. I still think the C isn't needed on the Weekends. They can be two different A's. One express (Far Rockaway Branch) and the other local (Lefferts Blvd) in Brooklyn. But my real point is that Central Park West doesn't need that type of service on the Weekends.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Basically, that would slash A service in half, making it even worse than C service. C trains may not be needed on CPW with the B, but then the B, not the C should get the cutback. Even on weekends, A express service Is needed, and the idea of putting some A trains express, some local would seriously confuse people. Look at the R-44 signs. A southbound train sign on the A: Fulton Local/8th ave express to Dyckman St.
I started a thread not too long ago about NH Electrics ... during it's course it wandered to a discussion about the light weight experments.
This month my NHRHTA calandar has a lovely color shot of John Quincy Adams, the F-M entry ... #3100 poses at New Haven.
Mr t__:^)
And if you have OSH (Orchard Supply Hardware) in your area (they are owned by Sears), they were giving out free 2001 calendars of vintage EMD diesels, all paintings by Mike Danneman. this month is a beautiful shot of NH FL9 2055 and a mate overtaking a pair of EF-4 electrics int he snow.
I've got room on my wall for another calendar (have four now). Thanks for the tip.
Mr t__:^)
None listed in mu Nassau ma bell book :-(
Mr t
Since this weekend R replaces E to Jamaica Center, does this mean more than half of R trains will be R32s?
If the answer is yes, I will come to NYC this weekend. If not, I will stay at home.
Thanks for the info.
Chaohwa
The answer is probably yes. Last weekend, most of the Rs I saw were 32s (and I finally got to see the 63rd St connector!)
:-) Andrew
Yup, last weekend it was R32's on the R, I rode it a couple of times and all I saw were 32's.
Both Andrew and Lou, thanks a lot for the information! :-)
Chaohwa
Keep in mind the R-32 Rs will be running in one large bunch, since the only reason they're there is that when the GO starts, Es become Rs as they hit Jamaica CTR.
Well I'll try to look for some R32's R this weekend, hopefully this time I'll have good luck. There's nothing like an R32 in the 60th street tube. The speed is awesome.
Really, I didn't see too many last weekend. Must've just been my luck!
I didn't see too many R32 R trains last weekend,so I wouldn't expect too much. Probably like 1 in 5 R trains is an R32.
I'm telling ya I got 3 in a row, TRUTH!!
That's 'cause they hide all the R32s from John. They say here comes John let's ruin his day. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe I am stubborn. When I see an R32 train on the R line, I will wait until an R32 R train comes.
Chaohwa
The R will still run via 60th St tube.
That's good. This is exactly what I want.
Chaohwa
I just saw on the news that there was some sort of cable car crash in L A it was just small scroll at the bottom of the screen does anyone else know any more.
L.A. has cable cars?
Peace,
ANDEE
It must be Angels' Flight.
Oh yeah, forgot about the funicular railway.
Peace,
ANDEE
Looks like you hit the nail on the head, Steve.
Peace,
ANDEE
i found a link to the story
http://www.channel2000.com/news/stories/news-234820010201-140217.html
you can see photos of this ANGELS FLIGHT back in setember 2000 in the new images section here !! ( near whats new ? )....
also ..
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
click on ANGELS FLIGHT..
I don't know msnbc might nt know much about Transit thats what they said.
The two cars of the Angels Flight funicular railway in downtown Los Angeles, Olivet and Sinai, collided at lunchtime today, injuring 16 people. I witnessed the accident scene after leaving the Red Line subway on my way back to work. In fact, I had ridden Angels Flight just this morning. The two wooden cars suffered damage, but they appear repairable. A picture and an article are on the Los Angeles Times site: http://www.latimes.com/news/state/updates/ap_angels010201.htm
I am not aware of any accident on this railway in its history.
When built, the two cars counter-balanced each other on one cable. When it was reinstalled in 1996, I understand that each car now has its own cable.
So how could they hit each other??
Same track, they pass each other in the middle if I recall correctly.
we are watching this LIVE on all the "TV" news here. We are not happy to see this !!
This really makes me sad I really liked ANGELS FLIGHT!! you can see the photos I took september 2000 loaded on the whats new? & new images section you can see some of what i took there! Also you can see ALL the photos of ANGELS FLIGHT on
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
click on ANGELS FLIGHT ...
Lou,
You are correct. No switches needed - the wheel flanges do the work. Sallamallah's picture shows it perfectly.
http://i8.yimg.com/8/42d34864/h/4/aa8525ee/AngelsFlight84.jpg
Dang, I had been looking forward to riding Angels Flight on our upcoming trip to Los Angeles (2-19 to 2-26). Scratch those plans.
Yep. Don't plan on riding it ever again from the talk today. Apparently one of those injured in the crash DIED afterwards, from the story in this morning's L.A. Times. Now that there's been a fatality, chances of it returning to service are VERY slim.
"Now that there's been a fatality, chances of it returning to service are VERY slim."
Why people have died in other amsment park rides more than once and they haven't been closed. and how many people have been killed in the New York subway.
Yeah, as long as no animals were harmed, it'll probably reopen. :)
But.....
Angel's Flight is owned by ?City of Los Angeles?
It does NOT bring in anything near a profit as amusement park rides do.
It is NOT a necessary service as a subway system is. It's there basically for historical reasons only.
>>> It's there basically for historical reasons only. <<<
Although Angels Flight does have regular users, and could be replaced by an escalator, it is principly a tourist attraction, and as such it will be rebuilt with additional safety features. See the Los Angeles Times article which indicates that an elevator company withdrew its maintenance bid because of safety considerations.
Tom
MLB.com is reporting today that maybe the former NY Giants (now they are in SF) really did steal the pennant in 1951. The report says that the Giants were stealing the other teams signs, which is a common thing to have happen. -Nick
No maybe about it, they've admitted it. Apparently, it was known since then, but no one talked about it. MLB banned using mechanical means to steal signals in 1961. But if you can do it without violating the mechanical rule, it is not illegal.
-Hank
In response to a previous post. B trains go to 145th on weekeends due to construction. However it went all the way to Bedford Park last weekend
Hey, that's kind of weird: B trains going to Bedford pk. on weekends. Speaking of B trains and bedford park, I've noticed that B trains going to bedford park often have 1/2 of their signs marked 145th. One day i even saw a sign that said: B Euclid Av, Bklyn 42nd st, Times Square. How'd that happen.
The right screwdriver can scroll a rollsign. I'd imagine someone was alone in the car and had such a screwdriver, and decided to have a little fun.
I have just finished rereading the subject book. It had been over a year since I last read it.
This book has some great pictures of, and text about the old IRT equipment for those who are interested. I really enjoyed reading it again.
The best part is that this book is apparently still in print. I would not have even known this book existed if I hadn't heard about it here on SubTalk!
Yes Karl this site is full of all sorts of wonders ... Thanks Dave.
Mr t__:^)
Any time :-)
You got that right.:-) At times, it has evolved into Foodtalk, Planetalk, TVrepairtalk, and most recently, Elevatortalk.
How right you are! If Subtalk had been around seven to ten years ago, a lot of these great books would still be in print; I'm thinking of the "Brooklyn Elevateds" in particular.
Eric
I've had my copy of "Interborough Fleet for over two years and I was just looking at it for a little while this morning.
BMTJeff
Enough talk....who has the book and how much is it? i love the old introborough cars....thanks.
I think the book retails for either $36. or $37.
I got mine mail order from Rails 'N' Shafts in Laurys Station PA.
Ron's Books In Harrison NY also offers the book for sale.
Both of these dealers have full page ads in railfan magazines.
Hope this helps! :->
Willis Hobbies had one left at 36.95 ... don't know if they are re-ordering, but there's a senior guy at the front of the store who you could talk to about it ... sorry don't have his name. He wasn't their this Sunday either.
It and my copy of "They Moved Millions" by Ed Davis, Sr. and Gotham Turnstiles by John Henderson form a good historical background.
BTW, Willis has two copies of latter.
I didn't realy appreciate what the Composite or Flivvers were in relation to IRT, but thanks to Interborough Fleet I do now.
The story I like to tell is two years ago I had no clue what a Lo-V, Hi-V, etc. were, then there I was driving them at Branford (Hi-V & Lo-V). This Fall I got my first ride in a D type ... another car type I only now know what it was/is. Thanks Dave !
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, If you don't already have them, you might want to look for
Subway Cars of the BMT by James Greller
The Brooklyn Elevated by James Greller & Ed Watson
These both may be out of print now but they are great books!
I'm pritty sure that BMT book was sitting right next to Interborough Fleet. It does look a book as good as the one I just bought on the IRT syatem. A friend is going to price it at the TA Museum.
But thanks for the tips just the same.
Mr t__:^)
Subway Cars of the BMT is also available at TMNY.
That's the one ... looks like a realy nice book. As long as it doesn't have any Hippos in it I might get one ;-)
Mr t
I have it. Its OK. I think that the book about the IND & post-unification cars is the best one out there.
Another good book is Gotham Turnstiles,it does have a lot of good color photos including subway stations showing the gum machines and the peanut machines,the days before the grafitti crap was born,one photo shows the ad for the automobile show in new york,which i used to attend with my dad.i wish more of this type of book was available as i have Gellers books.
Oh yes, that was one of my purchases last year. The color is a nice treat and if you like H&M Black Cars & SIRT this is the book for you.
There was enough on the early steel cars (IRT/BMT/IND) that I was glad I added it to my collection.
Mr t__:^)
I wonder how many color photographs exist of that time taken by railfans of the subway that have never been seen ? it would be nice to have a collection today.
Thanks, i'll try them.
The Trolley Museum of New York's web store has it for $36.95.
tmny.safeshopper.com
I just received it Monday from Amazon.com. It took them 2 months to send it, but it was worth it. I also have the "Cars of the BMT" book by Clifford Greller. Both are excellent. However, I cannot find an equilevent book for IND pre-unification cars. Can anyone help?
BTW, I also bought a smaller book about the IND Wortld's Fair line, by Frederick Kramer. Fascinating book, with plenty of pictures. I cannot fathom why this line, built as well as it was, was not retained after the fair ended, and how it's usefullness today could be measured.
At approximately 8:00 pm, I was walking underneath the White Plains Road el in the Bronx Park East vicinity.
As I heard a train approaching I instinctively looked up to see what type of cars are passing. What I saw surprised me. I first thought I was seeing a Redbird set. But I then saw that a Redbird two car set was pulling a 10 car set of R62's! They may have been R-62A's, I'm not sure. The set was passing rather quickly, so I didn't get a look at the car numbers.
I guess the Redbirds still have it in them. There is something to be said about a set of cars almost 40 yr old pulling a set of cars less than half their age.
I doubt that very much. Either the train was operating
other-than-head-car or those redbirds were cut-in and
it was a 12-car train. There is no way that 2 cars could
or would be pulling 10.
Maybe 10 cars were pulling 2
Peace,
ANDEE
That maybe the case. I did see a man in the operator's booth in the lead car, which was a redbird.
They may have been pushing the redbirds back to East 180th Street. The man may have been acting as the "eyes" of the consist.
I wonder why they chose to do this? Wouldn't it be easier and safer to pull the cars instead of push them? Or why not send a diesel to the rescue? That would not put a strain on the silverbirds and also it would save on the juice required to shove the cars back to the yard. I would only guess this is the case. If anyone has any thoughts about this I would want to hear them.
Is a diesel always available on a moment's notice?
When SEPTA experienced the tragic crash of the old Budd cars on the Market-Frankford line, I remember the papers photographing the disabled train being hauled back to the service yard on the power of other subway cars.
I'm not picturing exactly where this move was taking place
or in what direction, but consider this in answer to why push
instead of pull: At some point, you're gonna have to be pushing,
because if indeed those 2 cars were being transferred to the shop,
they'd be pushed in to the building (or up to the block, or
wherever), and then the pusher train gets cut off and goes home.
If proper flagging procedures are followed, the move is
perfectly safe.
That was a main shop transfer out of 207 St yard. Many times, a transfer crew will get cars out of the main shop destined for multiple barns. I took transfers with cars to be dropped at 239, 180, Mosholu, then the horses to Pelham all in a night. If the cars are assembled in order, making a quick drop is easy. Corona garbage is an all night affair if it involves the IRT mainline, it utilizes 8 hours plus an A/B man for the move. Before the lead off of 207 Street was installed, the moves further required a couple of R10s to provide signal protection to allow IRT cars to travel from the IRT entrance at Concourse to the 207 Stret yard by way of the IND.
Doubtful... REDBIRDS pulling a consist of 62/a's??
...consider there aren't any r62/a's on the 2 line..
Sounds more like a 142 delivery.. hack.
No the train was definitely not R142's. I saw the whole thing pass and the tail end indicated to me that it was in fact an R62/A consist.
The back car had a bullet sign that read NOT IN SERVICE.
Once in a while you will see R62's on the el. When they are short some train sets they will send one every blue moon. Also, the silverbirds pass through on their way up to the car wash at the 238th street yard.
You'd need a coupler adaptor in that case. The Redbirds and R-62/62As have H2C couplers while the R-142s have couplers like the Ohio Brass ones on the R-44s and R-46s.
do the 142's carry them like the 44,46's do?
There is a coupler adapter under one of the seats in the cab cars.
Welcome to www.nycsubway.org
bgcolor="#add8ee">src="/gif/1pixel.gif">border=0 width=312 height=25 SRC="/gif/nycsublogo.gif">border=0 width=44 height=25 src="/gif/1pixel.gif">
Welcome to the premiere color=red>unofficial site about the history of New York City's
subway system-- and other transit systems around the world. Now in our
sixth year! Feel free to browse and let us know what you
think!
WHAT'S Nsize=-1>EW
T
sorry about that i hit the preview botton but it somehow posted.
I think you mean "Somehow, I meant to hit preview but somehow hit post". The preview function doesn't record your post anywhere in the database, or even in a temporary file...
I noticed that now there's a copy of the message in a hidden input tag, in addition to the body of the message.
This means no more number waste?
Right, that's how when you click "Post" from the Preview screen it has some fields to submit for processing. The older method created a temporary post holding the message. I see no reason to commit the message to disk or database until you decide you're ready...
It is no big secret that negotiations are in their final stage to return three PCC type "L" cars to the tracks of the CTA for the filming of a movie in March. The cars would come from the Illinois Railway Museum and be worked on by the Skokie Shops to be brought up to operating specs. No fan trips yet! Car 22, part of my defunct Historical "L" Cars Preservation is included. How ironic.
Maybe too, we can get sequels to Blues Bros. and Cooley High going, not to overlook that action movie with the car chase on the "L". It should be fun.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
My first trolley ride, in the 60s, was on a PCC in Boston. I still love them.
Mr t__:^)
It's too bad they're not returning to the streets. They'd be a great tourist attraction at Riverwalk on in the park alongside Lakeside Drive.
Eric
Too bad they won't be using any 4000s. I remember seeing them on the Evanston Express, but never rode on them.
that action movie with the car chase on the "L"
"Running Scared" with Gregory Hines and Billy Crystal.
Realistic or not, that was one great chase scene.
--Mark
It would probably be a reasonably safe bet that if any PCC based L cars are put back on the CTA's rails for filming that Mr. Doyle will be doing everything in his power to have a fan trip run.
-Robert King
David
Try contacting Webmaster Graham Garfield of www.chicago-l.org. If anybody knows what's going on out there, he does.
Eric
The only question I had was about the car chase movie and Mark answered that. I did forget the fight on the roof of a PCC "L" and the dive into the Chicago River, our river that "leaks." With 6000's running they can remake all those old flicks.
David Harrison
I did plan on shooting the ANGELS FLIGHT during the day / then at night on a 2 hour video!
Now I am hartbroken at what happened yesterday!
I guess when it runs again & has been repaired & go back into operation it will not be the same as it once was .
What a sad day here in los angeles!! ( thats my comment thank you ) ..........
I think it might be. From what I understand it was in a box for 25 years. after that carsh might not be so bad.
A short while ago CP Rail delivered R142's numbered 6381-6385 and also 6451-6455. I was just about to give up when I heard the familiar rumble of the locos.
Oddly the R142's were at the end of the consist. Usually they're right behind the locos. CP Rail usually cuts loose any freight except for the R142's before switching over to the track that leads into Fresh Pond. The only thing they usually ever haul all the way into Fresh Pond Yard are the R142's. This means that they had to uncouple the rest of the freight from the locos and the R142's and hook up with the R142's again to bring them into Fresh Pond. Seems like a little more extra work.
Does anyone know if brake tests are still required after coupling/uncoupling even if you have a FRED that does telemetry? Does CP even use a FRED?
Shawn.
The difficulty of crossing Queens Boulevard, and the large number of pedestrian deaths, is a big topic right now. I was just glancing through "line by line," but didn't get a definative answer to this question.
Can you cross Queens Boulevard in the subway, outside the fare paid area, at some/most/all stations on the QB and Flushing lines?
I believe you have to cross the traffic just to get to the subway on the Flushing line, since it is on an island between vehicular lanes. Or do they have stairs and over-walkways?
If I were the MTA, I'd look at this as a chance to grab some station rehab money.
[Can you cross Queens Boulevard in the subway, outside the fare paid area, at some/most/all stations on the QB and Flushing lines?]
Yes, there are stations that allow you to cross Queens Boulevard bu using the subway. The following is a list of a few of them I've used:
Grand Avenue
Woodhaven Boulevard
71-Continental
Union Turnpike
I think all stops along Queens Boulevard have this feature.\
[I believe you have to cross the traffic just to get to the subway on the Flushing line, since it is on an island between vehicular lanes. Or do they have stairs and over-walkways?]
Nope, you have to cross four lanes of traffic to get to the island which has the el that carries the 7 line along Queens Boulevard.
[If I were the MTA, I'd look at this as a chance to grab some station rehab money.]
And it would be difficult to find places to put those crossings. There isn't a lot of space on the sidewalks of Queens Boulevard.
An entire statiopn mezzanine has to be reconfigured in order to get an overpass installed over Queens Blvd. The way the mezzanines are set up now is that you have the stairs leading to the platforms right against the walls parallel to the Blvd, with fare control gates also parallel to the Blvd.
Each station would have to be reconfigured so that not ounly would an entrance be allowed, but it would require the closing of one stairway on each platform. I don't know about the others on this board, but I think a lot of people wouldn't be happy if the number of usable stairways was cut in half.
63rd Dr doesn't have a crossover.
-Hank
at least one end of the station does have it is outside of fare control.
Union Turnpike has two separate crossovers on opposite sides of the Interboro Parkway.
Yes it does. The southernmost "EXIT ONLY" area does not, stairs go right to street. The middle green-globed entrance has a Queens Blvd crossing, as does the northern red entrance. As for the within fare control crossover, it is in the green section.
You can cross Queens Blvd (+ Hillside ave where applicable) in all stations. At Grand ave and Van Wyck Blvd, you can go in any one entrance and come out any other without entering the fare zone. At 63 drive you can do this with 4 of the 6 exits, at Woodhaven with 3 of the 4, at Continental with 4 of the 5. Those underground connections get surprisingly crowded when it's raining hard. Why walk along outside along QB when you can walk under it?
Why walk along outside along QB when you can walk under it?
Many of the pedestrians who've been run over have been elderly. Some of them may have preferred to take their chances crossing QB rather than struggling with station stairs.
Excellent point. The Roosevelt-Jackson Heights station complex is scheduled for a renovation to make everything fully ADA-compliant (I don't know if that means the elevators will be in or out of fare-control). I hope at least 71rst-Continental and Union Turnpike will be scheduled for that too.
Of course, the rest of the subway needs it. I meant no disrespect to those of you in other boroughs...
Oh, and I forgot - Queens Plaza and Court St need it (ADA, that is, with the looming G cutback).
I believe you have to cross the traffic just to get to the subway on the Flushing line, since it is on an island between vehicular lanes.Or do they have stairs and over-walkways?
No, there are no over-walkways (or under walkways).
If I were the MTA, I'd look at this as a chance to grab somesstation rehab money.
Really? They rebuilt these stations twice over a twelve year period. First they gut rehabbed all the elevated stations between 103rd and 33rd. This caused cessation of express service for a 48 month period.
About a year after this project was completed, NYCT "noticed" that the viaduct section over Queens Blvd was rotting away. So lo and behold they rebuilt the entire viaduct in place - including the recently rehabbed stations. This caused cessation of express service for another 48 month period.
Of course, there were never any changes to the stations geometry. No new entrances - only the added ability to close some at night. Now, it is discovered that the surface traffic patterns on Queens Blvd may have changed substantially since 1916. Perhaps, it was not such a good idea to undergo two complete within the last 15 years without re-examining the basic station architecture. So, you are proposing to rebuild the stations a third time because the NYCT planners got it wrong twice. Ever visit the Tweed Courthouse, while you were at City Planning?
I don't think the express service was out as long as you indicate for the viaduct rehab.
-Hank
Along the area of Queens Blvd where the #7 runs, isn't there a light at every block, and too much traffic congestion for speeding to be a problem?
It's where the IND runs UNDER Queens Blvd, east of that point, where Larry is suggesting the overpass/underpass example and where QUeens Blvd has main & service roads. It's the main roads with the limited traffic lights, I think, that are the problem, but I don't live there, so I can only speculate.
--Mark
Along the area of Queens Blvd where the #7 runs, isn't there a light at every block, and too much traffic congestion for speeding to be a problem?
No, people have been killed between Roosevelt/Greenpoint and Thompson Aves. There's just more dodge 'em room because the roadway has more lanes.
No, there are FEWER lanes on the section west of Roosevelt Ave. THe problem there is the left lane, and people stepping off the curb no matter what.
-Hank
Each of the 4 roadways east of Roosevelt have only 3 lanes of traffic with traffic island dividers. The 2 roadways west of Roosevelt have 4 or 5 traffic lanes each and are wider. Just to make things interesting, the pedestrian also faces the prospect of being hit by an car looking for a parking space under the viaduct.
Bring back the M&Q - PRW and 2 man cars! :-)
(Ever visit the Tweed Courthouse, while you were at City Planning?)
Yep. Blame the historic preservation crazies for that debacle. It should have just been torn down and replaced.
Hey, I just got to the Transit Authority. Don't blame me for the failure to plan ahead 15 years ago. Anyway, after a week on the job, I'd say the TA is STILL better run than most of the city agencies I dealt with at DCP.
Hey, I just got to the Transit Authority. Don't blame me for the failure to plan ahead 15 years ago. Anyway, after a week on the job, I'd say the TA is STILL better run than most of the city agencies I dealt with at DCP.
Glad to hear it's going well; good luck, and congratulations on getting out of DCP! :) I guess this means you aren't going to have a hand in rewriting the zoning resolution :(.
(Glad to hear it's going well; good luck, and congratulations on getting out of DCP! :) I guess this means you aren't going to have a hand in rewriting the zoning resolution).
Unless you get a new Mayor actually interested in fixing things (ie. none of the four contenders) instead of cutting a few deals and avoiding controversy, those remaining at DCP aren't going to rewriting the zoning resolution either.
Morale is at an all time low. Since I was pretty much the economist there, a former co-worker e-mailed and asked what they would do without me. I replied that they would do the same thing they did with me -- nothing. I got fed up and left because Rose wouldn't be bothered trying to fix the business regulations. Now the residential bulk regulations are going down the tubes, alienating a different group of staff.
If Joe Rose was the Captain of a 19th Century sailing ship, he'd be walking the plank.
Can you cross Queens Boulevard in the subway, outside the fare paid area, at some/most/all stations on the QB [line]..
A local community paper reported that the Briarwood community is upset because NYCT recently remodeled the VanWyck (F) station and eliminated such a crossing. Moreover, this crossing had been used by school children going to school. Adult passengers are equally upset because they are now forced to cross Queens Blvd on their return journey home.
The TA remodelled the Herald Square station a couple of decades ago. It was possible to cross Herald Square underground, prior to this improvement. The new arrangement requires two token booths, instead of the single one for the old arrangement.
A local community paper reported that the Briarwood community is upset because NYCT recently remodeled the VanWyck (F) station and eliminated such a crossing. Moreover, this crossing had been used by school children going to school. Adult passengers are equally upset because they are now forced to cross Queens Blvd on their return journey home.
They did? Not as of yesterday morning. The passageway under Queens Blvd was temporarily closed off with a couple of 2x4s for a week or two for some inexplicable reason, but it was hardly a remodeling, and it's open again.
I stand corrected. I don't use that station very much and I was giving details from an article I'd read, without the source in front of me. Either I or the author neglected to remember the temporary nature of the closure.
They may have been planning on closing it, and to try it out they blocked it temporarily for a few days to see if anyone would notice. The sign saying it would reopen in X days did not appear until 2 days after the boards were put up.
Oh good! :-)
I find what they did at Briarwood-Van Wyck very annoying. I used to use the north side exit to get the Q20/44 to Flushing. What were they thinking?
Now if I don't want to take the 7 I get off at Forest Hills and take two buses to Flushing, the Q65A and Q20/44.
I always use the subways to cross (using my unlimited card if the fare array doesn't permit it), and I've written a couple of letters on the subject. I strongly feel that use of the subways should be encouraged for pedestrians, rather than installing signalized crosswalks that most pedestrians ignore anyway. Looking at the map in the Daily News "Boulevard of Death" feature, it amazed me to see how many casualties were around Yellowstone Blvd and 71 Ave, where there's subterranean alternative that generally has a good police presence.
I don't remember offhand which stations do not allow a free crossing (I think 67 & 75 Aves do not), but all stations have mezzanines, and the fare arrays could be rearranged to accommodate this. DOT could put up signage, run an ad campaign, and give the MTA a grant to do the reconfigurations, and it would be far less expensive than the useless "improvements" they are making.
Someone was hit by a Q10 last night, see Daily News story.
75th Ave does, I'm not sure about 67th
That way, "subway" would have the same meaning it has in England.
From the description of the accident, it doesn't sound like the 'Boulevard of Death' issue. The bus was making a right turn, and trhe driver failed to see the pedestrian. This happens dozens of times daily in the city.
-Hank
There may be a lot of accidents on Queens Blvd., but considering how really long that street is, is it really more than would be expected?
(There may be a lot of accidents on Queens Blvd., but considering how really long that street is, is it really more than would be expected?)
That's a good point. Awhile ago they were going off on Grand Army Plaza, the "Intersection of Death." But GAP is the intersection of SEVERAL major streets, not just two. If you divided GAPs accidents and deaths in half to account for the additional streets, would it really by that dangerous? How about if you adjusted for the volume of traffic?
The real "intersection of death" is the intersection of two narrow one way streets near my house. You've got parked cars at the corner and buildings up to the lot line, and you just can't see. But volume is low, so it doesn't show up in any statistics.
Sheer numbers are meaningless; in "rating" a location for how dangerous it is, it should always be done as reportable accidents as a fraction of total volume. But hard numbers look impressive in headlines.
There may be a lot of accidents on Queens Blvd., but considering how really long that street is, is it really more than would be expected?
Using that logic it is far safer to cross midblock. Proportionately more accidents occur in intersections than their linear dimension would indicate compared to the rest of the street.
Drivers in France have applied the same logic for years. They speed up when approaching an intersection so as to minimize the time spent in such a dangerous place.
>>>This happens dozens of times daily in the city. <<<
Dozens of busses hitting pedestrians daily, I don't think so.
If it happens that much, they're keeping secrets.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think the best solution is to build pedestrian overpasses at the most dangerous locations so this way no vehicle can hit a pedestrian on an overpass. This would quickly reduce the number of pedestrian accident on Queens Boulevard.
BMTJeff
But look at where the deaths occurred (sorry, the link doesn't have the graphic that appreared in the paper).
13: Yellowstone Blvd to 71 Rd - 71-Continental Ave subway station
12: 51 Ave to Broadway - Grand Ave subway station
5: 66 Ave to 67 Ave - 67 Ave subway station
4: Ascan Ave to 75 Ave - 75 Ave subway station
4: Hoffman Dr to 62 Ave - Woodhaven Blvd subway station
2: 63 Dr to 64 Rd - 63 Dr subway station
1 (yesterday): 80 Rd - Union Tpke subway station
The three at Hoover Ave, one at 86 Rd, and 11 west of Broadway: no subway stations,
A location is not available for 14 deaths in 1993
41 out of 56 accidents since 1993 occurred at locations where there already is a pedestrian underpass.
This suggests --
1. People are not aware they can use the subway without paying;
2. People are afraid to do so;
3. People don't want to climb stairs, or walk a block over to the entrance; or
4. People don't care.
People might care if the police start issuing jaywalking summonses.
BMTJeff
People won't go for a stand-alone overpass, because they'll be afraid of getting raped/mugged in an isolated spot.
In Arlington VA (Rosslyn), a "forward looking" 1960s plan had elevated pedestrian walkways, and office buildings were built with entrances and stores on the SECOND story. The ground floor was a wasteland of garage entrances, and the streets were built as speedways. Well, after an incident of two, people became afraid of the walkways, which were abandoned, and all the stores closed, leaving the place a service desert.
The SUBWAY, however, is active. I think people just don't think to use the subway to cross under. Perhaps the TA should make some sort of announcement. After all, even more people passing through the station will make it even more secure.
I plan to teach my kids to use the subway to walk under Prospect Park West, Prospect Park Southwest, and 9th Street once they are old enough to walk to school by themselves.
I plan to teach my kids to use the subway to walk under Prospect Park West, Prospect Park Southwest, and 9th Street once they are old enough to walk to school by themselves.
Excellent plan! Suggest it to your neighbors, too.
The police did that just last week; it apparently didn't do a damned thing.
>>>People might care if the police start issuing jaywalking summonses. <<<
Is the fine for jaywalking STILL that ridiculously low $2? If so they won't have much success.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's amazing how anyone would be silly enough to take a gamble jaywalking across Queens Blvd. It's like crossing a freeway!
Depends. If you're reasonably intelligent, you WAIT for the traffic to stop. The idiots getting themselves naturally selected don't wait for the traffic.
I almost hit someone a few days ago.
-Hank
maybe the new signs will help..
"A person was killed crossing here,
Use caution when crossing"
They need some of these signs at grade crossings :)
shawn.
I think the statistics and conclusion are misleading.
How far should we expect a pedestrian to go out of his way in order to have a vehicle-free crossing? Consider the Yellowstone Blv to 71st Rd sector. There are 3 entrances on each side of QB, centered at 71st Ave. A person wishing to cross at Yellowstone would be required to make almost a 1/4 mile (1162 ft according to DeLorme) detour for each crossing.
You must first establish a criterion regarding how long a detour must be in order to be a viable alternative. Then you must identify the individual entrances to discover which accidents occurred within their viable range. The statistics that you cited are not sufficiently precise as to location.
Manhattan's mid block crosswalks establish a 1 block detour or 1/20 mile. That might be a reasonable starting point for determining which accidents could be avoided by using the subway as a pedestrian underpass.
(Manhattan's mid block crosswalks establish a 1 block detour or 1/20 mile. That might be a reasonable starting point for determining which accidents could be avoided by using the subway as a pedestrian underpass.)
For Queens Blvd, perhaps a little longer detour is justified. After all, in addition to the danger crossing against the signal timing can take a while, especially if QB is so favored that you have to wait twice (once at an island) to get across. Some accidents may be caused by vehicles trying to beat the light. Others may be caused by pedestrians crossing against the light after having waited once already.
The linked article is precise on the locations. I wasn't conducting a precise study, only indicating that crossing by the subway could be an effective alternative if publicized, using a Daily News graphic and my own recollection of where stairways are located. I paid no attention to the arrangement of fare arrays, which may have prevented the use of the subway at certain locations.
You're assuming that one would walk to the center of the station to cross. The 71 Ave station has a stairway at 70 Rd, two blocks from Yellowstone Blvd; I believe 71 Ave itself is toward the eastern end of the station. Keep in mind that the IND tends to be overbuilt and the stations can extend for nearly a quarter mile themselves.
You're assuming that one would walk to the center of the station to cross. The 71 Ave station has a stairway at 70 Rd, two blocks from Yellowstone Blvd;
No I was using 70th Rd. I used to live in the area and am quite familiar with the terrain.
Keep in mind that the IND tends to be overbuilt and the stations can extend for nearly a quarter mile themselves.
There's a 9 foot drop in elevation between 71st Ave and Yellowstone (again thanks to DeLorme). So my guess is that the mezzanine level does not extend to Yellowstone.
An expensive proposition nowadays -- each overpass would have to have either elevators at each end or extremely long ramps with a minimal grade in order to comply with ADA requirements.
The NIMBYs would never allow that much concrete to take up space for the ramps on the sidewalks, so if they had to be build with dual elevators, I would probably put up a test overpass first to see what kind of usage it gets, before committing to a series of them along QB.
You're taking the statement too literally. That TYPE of accident, a vehicle turning into a crosswalk and striking a pedestrian, occurs frequently. Most of these type of accidents involve large vehicles such as buses and trucks, which have limited visibility from the drivers seat.
-Hank
No, but it's riding on the coattails of the Snews' "Boulevard of Death" hysteria (case in point: "An 83-year-old man was...mowed down by a bus"), even if the bus was going ~8mph at the time. It's one more statistic the advocacy groups can use to demand the installation of speed humps on Queens Blvd.
80 Rd is at the Union Turnpike station, and Queens Blvd is nearly impossible to cross there because someone has a green light. Granted, in this case, Mr. Eisenberg may have trouble with stairs, but by publicizing the use of subways "in the British sense," other accidents could certainly be prevented.
One interesting sidelight is that the Q10 route never touched Queens Blvd until quite recently. The terminal was moved from the Kew Gardens Rd to Queens Blvd. The route change lenthened the route slightly and meant the bus had to stop for at least two more traffic lights. Perhaps the NYCDOT traffic engineers will have a good explanation as to how this change promoted safety.
Please explain what this has to do with anything at all.
-Hank
Please explain what this has to do with anything at all.
One way of avoiding pedestrian deaths is to remove the possibility of vehicle/pedestrian interaction. Pedestrian overpasses, underpasses, etc. are one means to avoid such interaction. Not many are likely to be built at $1 to $2 million a pop.
Traffic patterns can also be designed to minimize such risk. The previous Q10 routing reduced traffic on heavily used Queens Blvd by keeping the bus off it. The Union Tpk station was designed to handle the Q10 bus at the Kew Gardens /80th Rd entrances. I'm wondering what the rationale of the NYCTDOT traffic engineers was in moving the stop. Anyone familiar with the area knows that the new terminal by Civic Virtue entrance is further away from the turnstiles than the old 80th Rd entrance. It also increased the bus trip by 2 or 3 minutes.
The people most at risk getting hit crossing Queens Blvd are the elderly, and the elderly have the most problems climbing steps and I doubt alot of them would (or could) go down and up a flight of steps just to cross the street.
and some are just afraid to go into the subway still..
I'm not suggesting that pedestrians should be prohibited from crossing Queens Blvd except by subway, and it is true that more than half of the fatalities since 1993 (not including the 14 with no information available) did involve a pedestrian over 60. Not that 8 out of 33 is statistically significant, but of the eight victims profiled in the Daily News article, four were crossing against the light, and two crossed midblock. The other two were stricken by drivers running red lights. Instead of punishing the drivers, publicizing the subterranean route and educating those who are unable or refuse to use the subway that crossing a 200' wide arterial against the light or midblock isn't wise would make the situation much safer.
Yeah I agree, I use the subway to cross a busy road or street. Even at Main street-Flushing I use it to get across Main street.
I think there should be more underpasses in the subway, it would serve a dual purpose.
I do the same at Friendship Heights here in DC. Other people do it too and it should be encouraged!
Rode Paris Metro in December. Seemed very clean and efficient. However, we noticed "scratchitti." What's with this? Is the RATP turning their backs on this a la the MTA?
It was also nice to see vending machines on the platforms. Who is old enough to remember gum machines that were on the station pillars?
Test/quiz:
There are three stations called Villejuif. Who else out there knows the translation, and if so, what is the origin of this and why does it exist today?
Just what is the standard method of treating scratchfitti? Is the window replaced, or can it be removed, annealed, and re-installed?
Mark Michalovic
Replacement.
Peace,
ANDEE
Once a window has been scratched, there's not much that can be done to get rid of the scratchfitti except to replace it. However, at least here in Chicago, the CTA has begun applying a clear, heavy-duty mylar coating to all the interior glass surfaces of its busses and trains. Once the mylar gets "tagged" by vandals, it is simply peeled off and replaced.
It's not a completely fail-safe option -- I've seen a few cases where a corner of the mylar was sticking out and somebody decides to peel it further -- but CTA windows do seem much cleaner now than they were a few years ago.
Another type of graffiti problem are so-called "throw-ups", little white nametag stickers with some illegible black markings stuck onto various surfaces. Maybe the CTA should go around with lit candles and apply a generous layer of wax to all exposed surfaces in order to keep anything from sticking.
I read an interesting book called Bomb the Suburbs by Upski which explores hip-hop and graffiti culture, particularly in Chicago. (The same author went on to publish another book called No More Prisons which has become an undergroud hit in many major cities. I just picked it up but haven't had a chance to read it yet.) Believe it or not, there actually is a certain "code of ethics" among the tagger community which considers scratchfitti, gang-symbol scrawls and throw-ups the lowest possible forms of graffiti, usually created by adolescent gangbanger wannabes as opposed to the people who are actually interested in graffiti as a true underground art form.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Speaking of this, is there any possibilty of using a harder plastic for train windows to prevent scratchitti?
"Jew-ville?" I assume these were the ghettoes?
According to the web site of Villejuif:
http://www.orbes.com/villejuif/villejuif-online-2000/historique/index.htm
L'origine du nom de Villejuif a soulevé des hypothèses toutes
controversées. Villa Judea, Villa Jude, Ville Judee, selon les cas ou la
graphie, Villa Julite en 1205, Villa Judoea ou Villa Julittoe, selon les
auteurs, sans oublier un Villa Gesedum proposé par l'abbé Lebeuf, le nom de
notre ville est finalement au XIIème siècle francisé en Villegie.
L'origine la plus probable est Villa Judea, qui ne signifierait nullement
Ville-aux-Juifs, mais plutôt Villa d'un gallo-romain nommé Juvius ou Juveus.
So, it comes from a Gallo-Roman named Juvius or Juveus
Maybe he had to do with another town nearby called "Juvisy"
Yahoo France somehow tells you otherwise:
Villejuif: Anciennement "Villa Judeae", terre des Juifs. (land of Jews)
The Paris Metro has had a graffiti problem over the past 5 years. A lot of scratchitti and marker shadows all over the equipment. Also the RER trains get hit even worse. Some rolling stock there actually have large exterior pieces of graffiti. Funny thing is that the first class cars get way more interior marker vandalism than the second class cars. Vandals ride in style eh? Though I believe the first/second class system was abandoned last year.
To make things worse, I've noticed that there are a lot of NYC graffiti vandals doing their work in Paris. Shows the world what a scumbucket city New York really is.
I was on the Q train yesterday, and I caught a train of R-32s on the Q line. Which line did those R-32s come from? What kind of cars will be used on the BMT Southern Division when the Manhattan Bridge switch sides in July 2001? How would you tell which Q is local and express?
The R32 train you saw comes from the Coney Island Yard. Usually it runs on the N line. Because of yard dispatchment or car maintenance, sometimes you may see some R32 trains on the Q. It is like seeing an R32 train on G line sometimes.
As for the Manny B switch this summer, Brighton local Q will be designated as circle Q; whereas Brighton express Q will be designated as diamond Q. As for car assignment, R40 and R68 are the possibilities. Let's wait and see as the things turn out.
Chaohwa
The fact that the front flip-dot signs of the R-32s cannot show squares or diamonds probably precludes them from being used on the Q when it moves to the BMT Broadway Line this summer.
--Mark
R32 on the Q, this should be added to the FAQ >G<
For the R-32s, it's like going home again. That's where they made their debut in 1964, much to the consternation of Brighton riders who loved their Triplexes and their crowd-swallowing capability.
Hey Steve,
We loved our Triplexes, and don't forget that other crowd swallower, the ABs, on the Brighton and other Southern Division lines!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Since the side signs have the round bullet, they can be used on the local.
That's Rare to see a R-32 On The Q Line. Just as rare to see a R-32 Running The F Line. Maybe R-32's Might take over The Q Line One Day.
I've seen R32's on the Q, and also on the G. I have never, ever seen anything but R46s running on the F since I've been commuting on it. I think if anything else is caught running on the F, it is shot on sight.
:-) Andrew
R-32's used to run most of the time on the F Line Until 1995.
After 1995 R-32's Became Very Rare On The F Line. So It's very hard to find it on the F Line now in days.
The F is only R-46. Nothing else is EVER on the F (in recent years). The only other non-shuttle lines I can think of with a completely homogenous car allotment are the 1/9(which can only have 62/62as, nothing else can run there) and the D, and even the D will sometimes get R-68as (not much of a difference).
In my time here I've only seen one report of an R-32 on the F, and only one person saw it so it probably wasn't out for long (perhaps an emergency turned an E to an F).
Rare and incredibly hard to find are massive overstatements.
Can't redbirds run on the 1/9 if necessary? Or are they afraid they'll leave rust?
:) Andrew
Yes they can,but it doesnt matter because the redbirds will be phased out in a couple of years.
Yes, its possible. Even TA uses redbird on the #2, #4, #5, #6 and #7 lines. I pretty sure the TA did the same on the #1/9 line once in a while!
NOT ANY MORE. WHEN THE R-62A CARS WENT INTO SERVICE THEY HAD TO REILINE THE MOVING PLATFORMS AT SOUTH FERRY, BECAUSE THE DOORS ARE IN A DIFFERENT POSITION ON THE SIDE OF THE CAR. NOW ONLY THE R-62A CARS CAN MAKE A STOP AT SOUTH FERRY. ANY OTHER EQUIPTMENT CAN NO LONGER STOP AT SOUTH FERRY.
Wow ... I sit corrected, bro ... gotta hand it to the adminiswigs, ordering cars in a config that required so many changes. Did they have to do the same at 14th for the gap fillers there as well?
Myth. Any equipment can stop there. The positioning of the gap fillers, which are signifcantly larger than the door openings, depends on where the operator stops the train. I've posted previously that the doors are off by very little.
I've also been on a 1 train of Redbirds, when Conrail derailed that stack train on the Hudson line.
-Hank
I don't get that. There is mixed equippment on the 4/5 and they both stop at Union Square, and unless they have guys there realigning the gap fillers every 2 minutes, I think the 1/9 can go to South Ferry.
The Redbirds can run on the 1/9 line, but they can't stop at South Ferry because the doors don't align with the gap fillers there.
- Lyle Goldman
>>>The Redbirds can run on the 1/9 line, but they can't stop at South Ferry because the doors don't align with the gap fillers there.<<<
This is urban myth. The rust birds have no problem with the gap fillers at SF.
Peace,
ANDEE
The only difference between the Redbirds and the R-62s should be that the doors on each side of the car are off center alingment -- depending on what side of the car you're looking at, the other side would be front- or back-shifted slghtly, two allow two seats between the TOs cab and the door. But in terms of spacing between the doors, the distance between each door should be the same on the `Birds and on the R-62s.
A better comparison would be to go back to when the R-12, R-14 and R-15 cars were running on the main line, including the No. 1. Those doors are like the R-62s -- exactly opposite the ones on the other side of the car, but there was never and ban on running those cars through the South Ferry loop because their doors didn't align right.
It's the same reason why the `Birds, the R-62s and the R-142s can all live in harmony with the gap fillers on the local platform for the No. 4, 5 and 6 at Union Square downtown, since the gap fillers on the two platforms serve two different purposes -- the fillers on the No. 6 are for the cars' end doors, since the center of the cars tilt in on the curve with the ends further away, while the express platform's gap fillers at Union Square are for the center doors, because the car tilts away from the platform at its middle.
If you had a station where there was a station with moving platforms on both sides of the car and you had to open both sides, then you'd have a problem with the Redbirds and R-62s coexisting.
The door spacing isn't the same, but it's not significant enough that the cars can't use the same platform.
-Hank
You're right. Diagraming it out again, I come out with the difference being one seat length narrower between the end doors and the center door per car compared with the R-12/14/15s, since those cars only had one seat behind the TOs cab while the R-62s have two. The same would hold true with the current R-26 through 36 Redbirds, except the difference would be at the blind end, where there would be three seats on the R-62s instead of two.
And since that comes out (especially on the narrow-seated Kawasakis) to be about an 18-inch difference, there would be no problem between the two car classes.
maybe they don't like having screeching all over the place on the u-turn, like they do with the 5, on the inner loop, which seems to be enough for them
Huh? The redbirds PREMIERED on the broadway local and did BOTH sides of South Ferry, though the ones on the inner loop had all but the center doors cut out on the shuttle from Bowling Green. The redbirds went everywhere on the system though except for the third avenue el.
Four R-12s were modified for use on the Bowling Green shuttle, although they could have kept a museum train or two of Gibbs Hi-Vs running there.
That woulda been truly neat ... only problem is that while we love our antiques, the geese dis them as "garbage" ... as much as we love our V's, the geese thought them to be worse than plunging a toilet owing to their age. Gotta admit, there must be something fundamentally wrong with all of us ... but I for one revel in it. :)
Well, I guess I was wrong. I thought I remembered hearing on this very message board that there were incompatibilities. I could have sworn I read somewhere here that the two different classes of cars were incompatible at South Ferry Station, and they had to modify the gap fillers there so that the R-62A cars could run, and now Redbirds couldn't operate there any more. I don't know what I could have been thinking.
- Lyle Goldman
Since this question has been brought up, I thought it would be appropriate to bring this subject up again. Instead of immediatly scrapping all the rebirds, why not put them on the lines that are running the R62 fleet.
I understand that the R-62s may not need a big upgrade like the redbirds got in the 1980s, and that there have been small upgrades already. In addition, I know that eventually the buckling floors will contiunue to be replaced.
But more work can be done on these cars. With all the customer complaints about not hearing the t/o's announcements, why not upgrade the cars to have automated announcements and electronic destination signs? I realize this costs lots of money, but there cars are only just reaching their halfway point...they might as well be given some new technology.
Now would be the best time to do this, since all the redbirds are still around. Obviously, the redbirds life is limited....but an upgrade like this would certainly not take forever....the cars can hold up another year or two if necessary. So, in other words....do an important upgrade while extra equipment is around! -Nick
I REALLY don't want any more electronic destination signs. IMHO they would ruin one of my favorite car-types. If you're gonna put 'em somewhere, put 'em on the 68's.
:-) Andrew
We don't need electronic display signs. The only compromise I would make is a rolled route sign and a electronic destination. We need colored circles on the destination signs!
and get rid of the mirror like walls. they look horrible. put something in like on the R-142 but way more tasteful.
Woah, getting new walls would be very expensive, and not quite a s necessary. Electronic signs and automated announcements are at a high cost too, but they are eliminating the t/o's that mumble, plus all the signs will be in uniform with the destination, whcih the roll signs are not always. -Nick
true. it is more important. lately i have seen R-62's with missing or not working roll signs on the cars.
Want CORN with that, Andrew?
Above all, look into the overhead
beams in place north of 96th Street
which will explain why the redbird
foreheads can't make it by..
And yes, Virginia, Redbirds DID RUN
and STOP cleanly at South Ferry during
the September 2000 G/O which
sent the 2 down the Outer & Inner Loop.
The 2 didn't stop at South Ferry during the GO. And the redbirds CAN go north of 96th on the Broadway. Again, when the Hudson line was closed for a derailment, they ran additional 1/9 trains of redbirds. Additionally, all the yellowbirds are the same size.
-Hank
>> The 2 didn't stop at South Ferry during the GO.
Mine did.. at 12:45am.
The ban on redbirds on the #1 was lifted about 10 days ago. The ban only concerned the section between 145 St and Dyckman St.
That's a fine howdyadoo ... what happened to the cars? Did they raise the roof level? They used to run all the way from SF to 242 ...
Ya know, I have no idea. They created the ban on the redbirds on this section only about 6 months ago. Since I do not work the IRT (and never will again), I cannot get into specifics as to why the ban took place in the first place because I don't have a clue 'bout nuttin ova dere.
Heh. From the various comments about 96th, 145th and SF, I'm beginning to wonder if there's some vast right wing conspiracy against the rustbirds ... some kinda cosmic ferrous wheel ...
BOOOO!!!! HISSSSS!!!!
-Hank :)
Me sorry ... from now on, will include digital "barum-pum" ...
Propably clearence-checking the new tunnel lighting equipment.
-Hank
As I recall there was a clearence problem on one stretch of the 1/9 lines which prevented them from running the redbirds. I think it had something to do with the tunnel lights getting in the way of something but I think that problem may have been taken care of.
BMTJeff
The E has been running with a mix of R32 trains and R-46 trains (more of the former). I guess it owed the F a favor! :0)
"The F is only R-46. Nothing else is EVER on the F (in recent years)"
You're right about recent years. On Sept.18,1987, I photographed R-68's on the (F). Not a shop move or reroute, they were correctly signed. #2610 was the south motor in my photos. Maybe someone could explain why they ran there, although briefly.
Bill "Newkirk"
I gotta see this!!
Its Possible. Q line uses the all R68A and B uses R40 in 1995
The is also homogeneously R-62A because of the need to run 9 cars because of the lack of capacity in most of 148th St yard's tracks to hold 10 car trains. (married pair cars would have to be 8 cars or less)
Just before the last major northside manhattan bridge work(1995-6)i saw 3 or 4 R32 Fs
What about the N and R
Since there is one R32 on the Q Line, have you noticed that it's been easier to find R40s on the N Line. I also noticed that R40s are all broken up at Coney Island Yard. They have they trucks nice and shiny in black. I believe it's the R40s 12-Year SMS time.
E I think
...that train of R32's was still on the Q today - I rode it from b'way and layfette(SP?) up to 34th around 4:30ish/5... it was a very smooth ride between 4th & 34th.
-Joe
Any R32 found on the "Q" would have had to have come from the "N".
wayne
Yesterday the BMTman asked if I had received my copy of Mass Transit, a bi-monthly trade publication. This AM there was my copy.
Transit Transit's own Charles Seaton has written a nice article with some great shots of the two train sets. The intro parr states that the players had six months to do what the TA had to do in 4 days, i.e. get ready for the series. He means wrapping the cars.
This publication has gotten much better at minimizing the articles that are all fluff & pats on the back ... Mr. Seaton's article is a enjoyable read, so here's a big SHOUT OUT to him.
Mr t__:^)
Today's Times (p. B8) states a tenant group at 10 Stanton St. (lower e. side), a 300 tenant apt. bldg., is challenging the TA's plan to modernize a huge subway tunnel fan east of the bldg.
1. Which fan would this be? What line?
2. It really frosts me when people move into an area that has some arguably objectionable facility that has been there long before any of them were around, and protests its existence. That fan has been there 50 years, the article states. None of the tenants were there 50 years ago. They moved in with full knowledge of the fan. Not to mention the safety need to fan out smoke in case of a fire. Sheesh!
But they're not objecting to it in it's current state.
Peace,
ANDEE
These people have the NIMBY attitude. If the T/A is going to place a fan there the people will try to find a way to object to it. People would find a way to object to anything if they could just because they don't want it there.
BMTJeff
It is certainly possible that some people aren't even aware of its existence. Some ventilation shafts are disguised as brownstones or other things that blend in with the neighborhood. Perhaps this is the case here?
--Mark
The case here is that it's the same area where a similar project caused a building collapse.
They don't object to the project itself, just the part that MAY encroach on the foundation of their building, causing a structural issue.
-Hank
I think their objection is not to the fan's current operation or location, but to the TA's plan to raze their building in order to upgrade. Essentially, the TA had to choose between a project that would encroach on the park across the street or a project that would require demolishing an apartment building--thus putting a couple hundred people out of their homes. The park won.
The MTA wants to use it's eminent domain powers to seize a nine-story apartment building. Now here's the best part. The MTA claims it can't use Sara Roosevelt Park across the street because a federal law prevents from cutting down the "mature trees" in the park. Can this insanity be true?
Smells like political sausage crafting to me ... and without a peddler license.
Funny that I haven't seen any info on this. The stories I've read all suggest that the objection is over digging near the foundation of a building. The building dwellers are afraid (and rightfully so) of structural damage to their building.
-Hank
Your observations lead me to believe that the original dispute has been blown out of proportion (as usual) by people who weren't there, don't know what they're talking about, and may or may not have an axe to grind.
Still, I hope the dispute is resolved equitably. The property owners probably have legitimate concerns, and the MTA needs to address them appropriately when it plans and implements this project. Unfortunately, communication has not always been the TA's strong suite.
The MTA claims it can't use Sara Roosevelt Park across the street because a federal law prevents them from cutting down the "mature trees" in the park. Can this insanity be true?
Yes, it is... passed, IIRC, during the first year of the Clinton administration... championed by Al Gore.
There are two sides to this discussion. One is that we have a need to preserve trees and open space in an urban environment. Imagine a city with no parks, no flowers, no trees, just block after block after block of buildings. Depressing, to say the least - you'd go crazy in a hurry. Parks and the like are essential to the mental health of the citizens.
The other side is the need to replace or improve the ventilation system in the subway tunnel at that location. Regardless of where or how it is done, there will be disruption. I think it would be a safe bet to say that some of the residents who are upset about their building being affected (and I don't know how it is being affected - I haven't seen the article and this thread conflicts on the actual impact) would be just as upset about the park being torn up, even if it is only temporary.
I don't know what the proper solution to the problem is. If the ventilation system can be upgraded without a direct effect on the apartment building (and that presumes the city will do a proper engineering job so that no foundation damage occurs) or the park then that is the approach that should be taken. Otherwise, my opinion in this case, based on the facts available to me, is that preserving the park should take priority. Taking down the apartment building isn't a wonderful choice either, but I think it's the better one.
And, by the way, that doesn't change my opinion of the "mature tree" law - I still think it's stupid.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Whether or not I agree with your specific conclusions or your opinions, I like your analysis! Very thoughtful and well-written.
I hope this gets settled constructively (oops, there's a pun).
FDNY Manhattan is reporting a 'man under' incident at the 14th St/8th Ave local station (southbound).
-Hank
Saw a C going S/B on the local at the 34th street station at around 1:30pm.
Saw a C going S/B on the 6th ave local at the 34th street station at around 1:30pm.
FDNY Manhattan is reporting a 'man under' incident at the 14th St/8th Ave local station (southbound).
New report (from EMS) has it as a southbound E train, midway down the platform.
-Hank
Final report says DOA.
-Hank
EMS talk I think it is a 10-83 or 10-90/3? Don't have my cheat sheet.
I don't have the frequencies, nor do I have the new FDNY or NYPD ones...
-Hank
Around 1966 or 67 there was a water main break somewhere in the vicinity of Pacific Street which flooded the station and caused service distruptions and a horrible stench in the station for what seemed like years to come.
Anyone out there recall this event and more details? Thanks!
I heard about it a while ago, and I am interested in knowing about it. What is the plan? When, if confirmed or accepted, will it happen? I feel that it is great due to the fact that the famous 42nd Street is also the often-congested 42nd Street. The flocks of M42's and M104's that chug along with the taxis and coach buses contribute to the degrading air quality in the region. In other words, there is too much diesel exhaust from dragging buses and cars. Light Rail may be the only clean-air solution for the long run. Well, that's my opinion, anyway. Talk with me at carlwal@hotmail.com. I'd always like to hear your comments.
See this thread, started 1/9/01 and still going.
If you want clean air, use a trolleybus which can change lanes, light rail is too inflexible.
Then again, so is a trolleybus. Most pollution isn't caused by busses, but if you feel that busses must be persecuted, then fine, use diesel hybrids and to a more limited extent, Compressed natural gas.
BTW, I heard that a CNG engine works just like a diesel engine. Is the intake valve in each cylinder the same too? What about the air jet(or whatever it's called that adds air to the cylinder to stimulate combustion)?
Depends on if it's 2 stroke, 4 stroike, spark ignition, or compression ignition.
The old EMDs use 2 stroke compression ignition. No inteake valves, just a port at the bottom of the cylinder. My Harley, like most cars, is 4 stroke, spark ignition. Buses are most likely compression ignition if diesel, and could be either 2 or 4 stroke. I don't know about CNG, but I'm guessing it's 4 stroke, spark ignition.
This is all really complicated when you start getting into the nitty gritty. Try a local library that has a good engineering section. It gets real interesting REAL fast. Some of it (combustion chamber design), is barely a science, more like and art...
Here are some things people should know about "trolley buses".
First, an electric bus has only a fraction of the passenger carrying capacity of a comparable light rail car.
Second, an electric bus has the same poor acceleration and braking characteristics of a conventional bus. Neither compares to even a humble PCC trolley car.
Third, contrary to popular belief, an electric bus cannot swing out far enough from its wires to do a lane change.
Fourth, if you have ever seen an electric bus installation, the wires are amazingly visually obtrusive. Light rail trolley wires are a godsend compared to electric bus wires.
Fifth, an electric bus has the a life span almost as short as a conventional bus, under 15 years. A light rail car lasts from 40 to 100 years, such as 50 year old PCC's now overhauled and running in San Franciso and Kenosha.
Sixth, an electric bus uses up more electric power than a light rail car. In fact, an electric bus costs much more to operate than any other type of street running transit vehicle (except for natural gas buses), and requires many more support personnel, as they are breakdown prone. In other words, an electric bus combines all of the weak points of a light rail car and a conventional bus, but has none of the clear cut advantages of either.
Seventh, people dont like to ride electric buses. When Muni replaced the electric buses on the "F" line with PCC trolleys not too long ago, the ridership of the line doubled immediately.
As for natural gas powered buses, it should be noted that while they may burn fuel somewhat cleaner than a diesel power bus, they produce just as much Carbon Dioxide as a diesel bus. Carbon Dioxide is one of the most offensive of all the Greehouse Effect Gasses. Natural gas buses actually use more fuel than a diesel bus, because they weigh much more.
And we're blessed with mostly CNG buses here in Nassau county.
Tell your elected officials about the Carbon Dioxide, and that you want light rail instead ! The CNG buses are a hoax on the public.
Tell your elected officials about the Carbon Dioxide, and that you want light rail instead ! The CNG buses are a hoax on the public.
Maybe they should save some money and build a giant toilet to flush all of the rest of their money. All of the rest of their NEAR-BANKRUPCY money.
"The CNG buses are a hoax on the public."
Well, let's not get irrational about this. They are not a hoax, but also not a panacea.
CNG-powered buses get slightly less gas mileage than buses powered with #2 diesel. They emit no particulate matter (soot) nor nitrous oxides, nor sulfur. So they do not contribute to respiratory problems, a significant benefit anywhere that you have large numbers of people with obstructive lung disease, asthma, etc. They do emit CO2, a greenhouse gas. Also, lines requiring large coaches will not employ a CNG bus because of capacity (for example, the articulated buses are all diesel powered).
I am a bit skeptical about the benefits of light rail in Manhattan. And if anything should be built, it should be built on an important street with no current east-west subway service (for example, 34th St). There is more than enough transit capacity under 42nd St right now.
Bus lines operating normal-size passenger coaches, like Orions, would benefit from a switchover to CG buses, assuming the depots can be arranged. MTA will have to consider its cost-effectiveness...
Last week, I happened to see a presentation on the revived plan for light rail on 42nd Street. They have modified the route to a "loop" that would inlcude 42nd Street, go down the west side to service the convention center, then across 34th street to the east side, and then back to 42nd street via the east side.
That sounds a lot better.
[They emit no particulate matter ]
What I've read they emit smaller particles allegedly considered more carcinogenic than that emitted by diesel powered vechicles.
Arti
{smaller particular matter}
Can you recall where you read the thing about the smaller paricular matter?
Thanks,
bob d.
I don't remember exactly but probably either News or Post. Did some Google search and found this:
http://www.pcac.org/reports/press/press313.htm
I bet the newspaper article was inspired by that.
Arti
That link you gave doesn't sound very credible. It doesn't give any specific numbers or how the results were obtained.
That was what I was able to quickly find searching the Web. There's probably some more detailed information out there.
Arti
I understand. You could be right, I just never heard anything like this before.
What particles are we talking about - and who wrote the article?
I don't remember, see my response to Bob D.
Arti
I am a bit skeptical about the benefits of light rail in Manhattan. And if anything should be built, it should be built on an important street with no current east-west subway service (for example, 34th
St). There is more than enough transit capacity under 42nd St right now.
That's really the only issue. No matter how advanced the vehicles may be, any sort of surface-running, non-grade-separated transit on 42nd Street, or indeed almost any street in Midtown, is going to be hopelessly slow.
Altanta has the country's 3rd largest fleet of CNG buses. When I wait at a bus station and a diesel bus leaves, the whole station is filled with exhust and it's hard to breathe. When a CNG bus leaves, I can still breathe normally. While I don't know anything about mircoparticles that are more dangerous than diesel soot, based on my experince, CNG is cleaner. Natural gas reacts with oxygen to form only water and CO2. I would rather have an engine that emits more CO2 than CO or NOx, plants can absorb CO2. The other two are the ones to worry about.
Natural gas reacts with oxygen to form only water and CO2.
Do CNG buses carry their own oxygen or do the use air. If the latter, then various nitrogen oxides are also possible. Also, what about incomplete combustion - especially with a diesel. There will be carbon particles released.
CNG buses oxidize their fuel in air, which all of us know is mostly nitrogen. Refresh my memory: any nitrogen in gasoline or diesel fuel?
Refresh my memory: any nitrogen in gasoline or diesel fuel?
No
If there is no nitrogen in any of the common petro-based fuels, how do you control NOx emissions?
Pump the nitrous into the bus? You won't have passengers complaining at least.
Then you could call your rolling stock "laughing-stock" - hah!
The Nitrogen comes from the air, which is mostly nitrogen.
That's why I asked how you control NOx emissions?
[Bus lines operating normal-size passenger coaches, like Orions, would benefit from a switchover to CG buses, assuming the depots can be arranged. MTA will have to consider its cost-effectiveness...]
Asked and answered ... the TA decided NOT to invest in any more CNG technology, the two (I think) depots they have is all there is going to be ... cost of building a new depot & pumping station.
They are hot on "clean diesel" right now.
Mr t__:^)
And the hy-bred bus that runs a small diesel engine at a constant rate to charge batteries. I though they were going to push that program instead of the CNG.
(Tell your elected officials about the Carbon Dioxide, and that you want light rail instead ! The CNG buses are a hoax on the public.)
Bob, this is an electric rail board, but let's not exaggerate. Most of the growth in electricity production is based on burning natural gas as well. Nuclear is out. Environmentalists don't want more dams. There is no way that wind and solar can produce all the power we now consume, under current technology.
The question is, which throws more gas into the atnosphere, burning to produce electricity and using the electricity to run a trolley, or burning it in a bus? Carbon dioxide is a global problem. It doesn't hurt people locally the way diesel does. It also causes the same global problem if produced in a power plant far away as it does when burned in a bus close by.
Light rail only works in lightly traveled areas, on its own grade-separated ROW, or when given absolute signal priority. I'd rather see the Flushing Line extended west, and the Shuttle extended east. The cost would be higher, but the return -- how long it would take to move crosstown -- would be much, much greater.
If you gave 42nd St. 2 to 1 signal priority over the avenues to make light rail move, you'd lock the grid, trapping north-south buses, delivery vehicles, and ambulances as well as SOVs. Or is that the idea?
Nuclear is currently politically incorrect. Change political conditions and it can be in again (not easy to do, granted).
NO! storage of spent fuel is not an issue of PC. Sometimes physics trumps dreams. The fission products are WAY beyond current technology's ability to mitigate. AND even dreaming of non-corrupt construction (not bloody likely) the operating entities have shown time and again a 'corporate cultural incompetence' which I for one do not wish to see in charge of something so massively more dangerous.
As to other generation means, it is inherebtly easier to police ten large generating plants than several thousand buses, trucks, or small generators useing thesame fuel. We do have major untapped wind power available, AND we are going to need to be lest profligate--got to go cycle the solar hot water heater.
I'm sorry, Dave, but somebody's been hoodwinking you. Out of 94 quads of power produced in the US today, only 1 is generated by wind/solar. If anybody tells you that wind solar can be scaled up to handle a lot more than that, ask them if they're running a two-for-one special on the Brooklyn Bridge too (or the lower deck of the George Washington, if somebody already bought the Brooklyn Bridge).
Wind and solar are great, and we are using them.
Nuclear waste is being handled successfully in Europe and Asia, and we have reasonable, workable methods now - methods which will only get better with time, so it really is a political question, not a technical one. There is very little true scientific controversy over the issue, except for a few discredited individuals...
By the way, there are recycling methods available now for spent waste which involve no plutonium generation - that wasn't available 10 or 15 years ago...
As for reactor technology, in the US and France, nuclear units perform better, more safely, more reliably than any fossil fuel plant or cogeneration plant. Average availability, power factors and occupational safety records are higher at plants opened in the 1980's than any other form of electricity generation.
This does not mean that we have a panacea here. Everything in its place, and a healthy respect for it are in order.
Toss out the political advertisement jingos in your last posting, and let's get on to serious discussion on the topic - electricity is clean and vital and versatile, and we need to generate it in ways that are economically and environmentally viable. Lots of different technologies have something to offer...
By the way, there are recycling methods available now for spent waste which involve no plutonium generation - that wasn't available 10 or 15 years ago...
Could you re-state this please? Plutonium is not generated by recycling methods; it's a fission product.
Breeder reactors were experimented with to increase the efficiency of the use of uranium ore. These burned plutonium. Reprocessing of nuclear fuel in older metods involved the use and or production of plutonium. Newer methods now being demonstrated do not.
The NRC website may have some links to this, also the DOE website. I'll see what I can dig up in recent research publications from ANS.
I found a rather non-technical description of the formation of plutonium as a by-product of uranium fission on a Google search of "uranium plutonium reactor". U-238 becomes Pu-239 by neutron capture and double beta elimination. The Pu-239 is also fissile and produces a lot of the energy, but some becomes Pu-240 by neutron capture, and this hangs around.
Unfortunately, nuclear power is not economically viable without a de-facto subsidy. The reason can be summed up in one word -- Chernobyl.
All business activity entails a risk of harming others, a risk that can be insured against. That risk doesn't just include the probability of an accident, it includes the consequences of that accident. The odds of another Chernobyl are very low, especially in the U.S. But the consequences are so severe that no one private party would ever agree to insure against the harm caused by a meltdown.
Therefore, nuclear power is only viable if the population of a wide area around a plant agrees to bear the risk with no possibility of compensation, of the legal system provides blanket absolution or limits on compensation.
In fairness, there are legal limits on compensation in the event of a airplane crash. One could argue that the airline industry wouldn't be viable either if it weren't for those limits.
Using Chernobyl as a guide, now that we know the consequences, would any community in the potentially affected area agree to host a plant? If not, we are talking about ramming one down their throat.
As for solar and wind, who knows? Perhaps they could rise from one percent to 50 percent, with solar panels on every roof. But it aint 100 percent.
Using Chernobyl as a guide, now that we know the consequences, would any community in the potentially affected area agree to host a plant? If not, we are talking about ramming one down their throat.
Because they're IDIOTS.
Chernobyl cannot and should not be used as a guide for any nuclear accidents in the United States. There are a lot of dumb things the Soviets did that would never be done in the United States. First, nobody in the US, at least at this point would DELIBERATELY turn off all of the safety features as a test without turning off the reactor. At least Three Mile Island was just caused by a lack of training.
And there's always the biggest part of the Chernobyl accident, the reactor wasn't enclosed in concrete. Even if a Chernobyl scale accident occured in the United States, the concrete would prevent much of the radiation from escaping.
There are obviously concerns for nuclear power, but anybody who bases their concerns on Nuclear safety in the US on Chernobyl needs to have their head examined.
Pork,
Your technical points are absolutely correct. In fact, the accident at Chernobyl happened because the crew was running an unauthorized experiment and purposely shut down all the safety systems to do it. This was a criminal act with no parallel in the US. If they had not disables the "safety," some of the damage and loss of life might have been prevented. I agree with your general conclusions.
Having said that, don't you think it might be better to be more respectful in tone to people who voice opposing opinions? They'll tend to listen to you more...
Ron, please don't try to get Pork to tone it down. I'm sure you're right about more people listening when one stops yelling, but reading his diatribes is almost as much fun as watching Peter and Larry go at it. He's obviously smart and knows his stuff. If he's a little rough around the edges, it's probably because he's still -- dare I say it -- YOUNG. If he doesn't provoke someone into coming at him with an axe, he'll grow out of it.
OK, OK, I see your point. :0)
If he's a little rough around the edges, it's probably because he's still -- dare I say it -- YOUNG.
I don't find that offending, so I won't yell at you.
If he doesn't provoke someone into coming at him with an axe, he'll grow out of it.
I intend to get around in a pope mobile for the rest of my life. :-)
Pork,
Whatever you do, be true to yourself. Being Pork (and whatever your real name is) is pretty good. I'm impressed with a lot of your posts here, actually. It's obvious you have a lot between the ears.
A lot of things get rammed down society's throat Larry, and this is very far down the list of things I would worry about. Much worse things are being jammed up our other orifice, and we choose not to notice...
In your new job yet (and off the antacids)?
The problem with nuclear power in the U.S. right now is because of Three Mile Island (more than Chernobyl) safety standards, insurance costs, etc., were raised to the point that the consturction related costs outweighed whatever profits the electric companies could hope to gain from the plant over its 30-40 year life span.
Palo Verde, in the desert 40 miles west of Phoenix, was the last U.S. nuclear plant to come on line about a decade ago. Its planning started before Three-Mile, and thanks to the safety adjustement and corresponding delays associated with the changes, the plant managed to bankrupt one of its backers (El Paso Electric) and put a crimp in the finncial ratings of most of the others.
Right now, nuclear power is in the same boat, only worse, as drilling for oil and gas in the Alaska Wildlife Refuge -- most of the public is against it and will continue that way until the cost of power gets high enough, or the inconvienence of possibly doing without electricity or gasoline at times, causes enough people to chnage their minds. (Higher future power costs would also make it more likely the utilites would see returns on new plants, though even if people do change their minds, places like Palo Verde would still be the only areas they could probably be located)
Your financial analysis, is , unfortunately for us, reasonable. I for one would not mind living near a nuclear plant, esp. if I know I can breathe clean air and enjoy the electricity therefrom.
We live with an innumerate public - and the consequences therefrom...
We live with an innumerate public - and the consequences therefrom...
Once upon a time, there were textile mills on the banks of the Blackstone River. Accordingly, the river stank. I asked my father why "they" let the mills dump their chemical waste into the river. He said that it would cost too much to run the mills if they couldn't dump their waste into the river.
The problem is not merely that the public is innumerate. It's much worse than that. The public is also more than slightly distrustful of all forms of authority -- including business owners who claim that their products are safe and that their facilities don't endanger the environment. If one lacks the ability to deal with scientific concepts and has no faith in those who are capable, is not the Luddite approach the most prudent?
Not really. Luddites are just as likely (if not more so) to shorten their own lives by resisting scientific advances...
It's a tough world out there. Knowledge is power, and lots of homework is the only way to obtain it.
We live with an innumerate public - and the consequences therefrom.
Knowledge is power, and lots of homework is the only way to obtain it.
As you have pointed out, knowledge is one of the ways to power but an ignorant majority rules. They would rather take astrology 101 and poison themselves with the "food supplements" to which a corrupt Congress has exposed a credulous public.
Funny how two statements can be mutually inconsistent although each is true.
Unfortunately, you're dead right about food supplements. You can thank Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) for that.
That sounds about right...
>>>Nuclear waste is being handled successfully in Europe and Asia, and we have reasonable, workable methods now - methods
which will only get better with time, so it really is a political question, not a technical one. There is very little true scientific
controversy over the issue, except for a few discredited individuals...
Ron: How about Yucca (?) Mountain, a very large waste site proposal that was vastly controversial for a number of reasons, including a water table that (despite being in the deserts) was still considered too high? Ron, I could be wrong about the name of this site, as the site I am mentioning is a very long-standing and controversial waste site.
Ron, could you describe these "reasonable, workable methods" that are present "now". I am not aware of any current method that can ensure security for the literally millions of years that fission waste materials remain radioactive. I am willing to listen to reasonable argumentation, though.
-cordially,
turnstiles
We don't have perfect methods. We have workable methods. In fact, methods that involve monitoring and other somewhat reversible (like the pilot plants DOE wanted) are good because in 100 years, technology will be advanced again over now and we can apply it. Yucca Mountain is such an incredible political football that a reasoned discussion of it in Congress has been difficult. It is more about a Western state feeling put upon by the feds than anything else. Much of Nevada is claimed by the feds as a military training area (Top Gun at Nellis, for example)and if you subtract those, the national parks and other places, you have proportionally less for the state and influential private landowners. The Yucca Mountain dispute was a chance for Nevada to screw the feds back, and they took it!
We have workable methods.
Are you talking about entombing waste in salt formations? Like the one that some utility was using as a natural gas tank until it developed a leak, causing certain difficulties in the local area? If so, that's not very reassuring.
You're not creating a valid comparison here. Vitrification of waste (creation of glass beads) and entombment in geologically stable formation has been proposed, yes.
Spent nuclear fuel from commercial reactors is stored in casks which have been proven to take enormous abuse. Sandia Labs' casks, for instance, can withstand a collision at greater than 70 mph, a drop from 100 feet in the air, a collision with a locomotive at 80 mph, and (in addition) engulfment in a jet fuel fire for 90 minutes with no leak whatsoever.
Permanent disposal (which the feds have actually contracted to do) needs to begin with a pilot plant to demonstrate the monitoring ability as well as the behavior of the site over several years.
We need to do this anyway because the largest contributor of nuclear waste is medicine, and without committing to working out the waste disposal plans you can kiss a lot of cancer treatments, life-saving diagnostic procedures, and bench research goodbye.
The objections which center around what happens to the waste in 10,000 years are nonsensical, because we can fully expect newer disposal methods in 5, 10, 20 years and a workable plan (like apilot plant) should allow us to apply these methods.
I was under the impression that nuclear medicine produces waste with much lower levels of radioactivity than do nuclear power and nuclear weapons. Am I wrong?
Either way, the existence of a need to find a satisfactory way to "dispose" of medical waste does not imply that we already have one, much less a satisfactory way to "dispose" of spent nuclear power fuel rods, not to mention everything else in a nuclear power plant that becomes radioactive due to irradiation over the useful life of such a plant. What is appropriate for one kind of waste may not be for another. Nor, for that matter, is it universally true that we find everything we need. (I agree that it is usually true, and we certainly should look very hard.)
I take it that the casks you mention are the "disposal" method you referenced a few posts ago. Given the bad experiences we have had in this country in the area of nuclear materials storage, I am skeptical of all claims of the long-term safety of any storage method. It is too easy to imagine a businessman cutting corners to save a few (million) bucks today when he knows that his grandchildren will be in their graves long before the s*** hits the fan. The same goes for politicians and bureaucrats. It's happened before and will happen again. All things considered, I would be much happier with a program of reprocessing and reusing nuclear fuel and warhead fissionables, if one could be developed which was both secure and did not involve the creation/concentration of weapons grade fissionables.
While I am not unalterably opposed to nuclear power and do recognize that the alternatives also have negative impacts, given the history of dishonesty on the part of both the government and industry with regard to nuclear matters (and a few other things), the question remains: "They lied before; why should we believe them now?"
It sounds like you are getting information from people who specialize in telling you about how the nuclear industry is lying to everyone. There are folks who have based their entire careers on doing that.
1. We have not had any bad experiences with commercial nuclear waste in this country. It's convenient for people to lie about that. The government's nuclear weapons program (e.g. Hanford, WA)has been a mess in terms of environmental protection, but the same is not true of the commercial reactor program, nor of the Navy's reactor propulsion program.
2. Nuclear waste is classified largely by the half-lives of the radionuclides and the kinds of radiation given off. Thus, completely separating medical/scientific nuclear waste from reactor waste misses the point, and often feeds into the political antinuke BS offered by politicians and activists who put bread and butter on the table doing this.
II am an MD who took a reactor operations course in college (ran a small research reactor used to train physicists, engineers and chemists). It was the hardest class I ever took in college. The demands on me were high, expectations were high and the amount of homework was enormous. I also witnessed an NRC inspection. I have a healthy respect for anyone who pursues a technical career in this field, adheres to the pursuit of science and strives to make the world a little better with it.
The "businessmen, bureaucrats" and others you so cavalierly dismiss have made enormous contributions to society and to our standard of living and our options to succeed economically and protect the environment. Why don't you read up on a few of them: Start with Shirley Ann Jackson, for example (you won't find her in biography.com); Hyman Rickover; George Apostolakis. Then re-examine some of your attitudes.
>>> The "businessmen, bureaucrats" and others you so cavalierly dismiss have made enormous contributions to society and to our standard of living and our options to succeed economically and protect the environment. Why don't you read up on a few of them: Start with Shirley Ann Jackson, for example (you won't find her in biography.com); Hyman Rickover; George Apostolakis. Then re-examine some of your attitudes. <<<
Pointing out examples of highly ethical people does not protect us from the others. Consider the Ford executives who were aware of the problems with Pinto fuel tanks but made the decision that paying for a few deaths would be cheaper than correcting the problem. The Firestone Tire executives who made no effort to recall defective tires until bad publicity forced them to. Cigarette manufacturers in general.
Even is 99.9% of all those dealing with nuclear power are excellent cautious individuals, we still have to fear that Homer Simpson, or worse yet his boss, is out there somewhere.
Tom
I don't share your attitude, primarily because there's litle documented evidence to support it, beyond a few poorly researched stories in newspapers (oh yeah and Homer Simpson, which in part reflected the artist's profound ignorance- not something to be proud of).. And if I did, I would be far more worried about those kinds of people in other industries - industries which statistically pose hazards far beyond what this industry does and do not face unethical fear-mongers which encourage the molehill-to-mountain misunderstanding that becomes all too common here.
Is it your opinion, then, that Shoreham should have been completed and brought on line?
Frankly, yes. Stone and Webster Engineering Corp. did a really outstanding job building the plant, and they applied lessons learned at other sites.
Shoreham, though, was convenient political fodder (and very easy to use to divert from other issues) for county executives who needed to look like they were protecting the public from something and make sure very vocal activists didn't oppose their reelection. I mean, budgets and crime and health care for poor people and abortion are tough issues where you can really slip up no matter what you say. This was easy.
Great trick - Leopoldo Galtieri faced down a poor economy in Argentina by rallying his people against the Brits and invading the Falklands Islands in 1981. It took people's minds off real problems for a while and made him popular (but then compounded his problems when the British army kicked his troops out of the Falklands).
Have you seen how many hillsides in CA have to be used to produce any significant power from wind? Nuclear fission isn't bad, RoninBayside pointed out some things about them. What we really need is nuclear fusion. They've been working on that for awhile, anyone know how close we are from having fusion commercially availible?
Nuclear fusion is not yet a net power generator, but they're getting close. I believe Caltech and the University of California have demonstrated events pretty close to energy-neutral (ie breakeven point). A lot of issues remain, including the demonstration of a sustauined reaction in a context that is commercially feasible. Recent govt. cutbacks in research facilities has hurt the effort.
Check out the US Dept. of Energy website for more info.
Nuclear fusion is not yet a net power generator, but they're getting close. I believe Caltech and the University of California have demonstrated events pretty close to energy-neutral (ie breakeven point).
Princeton has, too.
Yes, thank you.
Would you care to give odds on the construction and operation of a commercial fusion-powered electrical generating facility within the next 20 years?
Assuming that the technology to create such a device becomes available, do you have any idea what the most likely failure modes of such a device would be?
Relatively low, because the energy-neutral point has not been consistently crossed yet, because commercially viable technologies are not here yet, and because the govt. has cut funding recently for this (we'll see what the Bush Admin. does). But I could be wrong. A breakthrough in material science could provide the answer.
As you are no doubt aware, the fact that something can be done in a govt or university lab does not make it economically feasible - yet.
As to failure modes - well you need to be able to sustain a fusion reaction. We know how to do that in an uncontrolled (by us, that is) manner. That's called a hydrogen bomb. We don't know yet how to consistently do it in a controlled manner. I believe one of the failure modes will be related to the means of reaching sustaining energy levels...
Since I don't do this professionally, I encourage you to go to the Univ. of Calif. website to check out their presentations. Also, specifically look up Tokamaks (one method of controlled fusion).
Thanks for the lead.
Thanks for the lead.
fusion when it becomes reliable maybe quite wonderful. MEANWHILE, the wind is relatively free, and ads I have posted other times studies indicate that solely along the UP in Wtoming enough wind potential exists to power most freight on the entire UP. Imagine that hole in the oil market, and that is just along their ROW. Ultimately the point is that we need to do more on many fronts regen on the subways, LRV's, ETB's and EMU's as well as the ATK motors, solar heaters on our roof, and much more.
The question is, how do you capture it - that's where the problems (NIMBY, acreas of land use, efficiency, line transmission, death to rare birds ("Condor Cuisinart") come in.
Not insurmountable - windmills are coming into service. But total potential vs. useable potential is the relevant issue.
I saw an item on TV (PBS, IIRC) recently to the effect that farmers are beginning to put wind-powered generators in their fields to supplement the earnings from their crops. I like the idea of wind-powered generation of electricity alongside railroad ROWs being used to power the trains. Transmission costs and losses would be negligible since the power would be used virtually on site.
You'd never generate enough, and your savings would be negligible.
-Hank
Generating power "on site" may save the power lost due to long-distance transmission. But tying windmills to the railroad is no piece of cake. You need to ensure voltages and power supplies are stable, reliable and predictable, you need the equipment necessary to convert the electricity to voltages acceptable to the railroad, etc. etc. Far better to sell the power to a utility, and then leave the responsibilities and liabilities of supplying power to the railroad (and other customers) to them.
YOU emit CO2. Perhaps you should be replaced with a light-rail line. Of course, where is the electricity going to come from, midwestern power plants that further increase local pollution?
-Hank
Third, contrary to popular belief, an electric bus cannot swing out far enough from its wires to do a lane change.
Doesn't that depend on the installation and the length of the poles? I know I've seen a Philadelphia ETB go out around a double-parked car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think it actually depends on where the double parked car is situated in the roadway, and the size of the car.
bob d.
According to everything I've read on ETB (Trolley Coach, Trackless Trolley) ability to change lanes is that the vehicle should be able to move 11 feet in either direction from the center line of the trolley wires without loosing the poles.
As to the "ugliness" of the double wires, try the visual pollution of single suspension catenary over a city street (like Baltimore's Light Rail line on Howard Street).
Vehicle life of a diesel transit bus is about 15 years, give or take.
Vehicle life of an ETB is on the same time frame as a streetcar or LRV.
Moving 11 feet from the center line of a lane does not allow a trolley bus to make a full lane change. A lane is at a minimum 10 feet wide and in many cases 12 feet wide. This means a trolley bus can only get half way into the other lane.
As for cantenary wire, I never was a fan for its use over city streets. I think direct suspension trolley wire is the best for urbanized areas, as its the least visually obtrusive.
I think that US light rail systems are way too reliant on these european catenary "kits" that are being sent over, such as the one used on the Hudson-Bergen light rail. But then again, the Hudson Bergen light rail is owned and operated by a subsidiary ("the consortium")of SNCF (French National Railway), so what else would they buy with our tax dollars?
As for the lifespan of a trolley bus, according to a memo issued last year by the Vancouver, B.C. transit authority, they only last about 15 years, or 18 years at the most. That memo also points out that spare parts for trolley buses are no longer available.
1, the F line tripled ridership ovwe the ETB--but that is precisely because it is not merely a transit service, but like the cable cars is a entertainment in itself. Secondly the F line benefits from volunteer cleaners from Market Street Railwat(a fan org--site indexed on this site.
2. As to lane changes the ETB's in SF do quite well, and the new order includes batteries for off the wire emergency reroutes. AND they can take hills the diesels can't.
3 ETB's in SF currently in service are over 21 years old--gorgeous no, but QUIET. As to visual aesthetics, maybe if enoughdiesel soot is present the wires will be less obvious, 'course SOME of us like catenary!
Thanks for point # 1 in your last post, thats a really good one! Of course, some community folks would rather choke on diesel fumes than look at the "ugly" wires.
The E902's that BC transit got in 1981 were lemons and are pretty much spent after 20 years.
But hey so are the Boeing Light Rail Car in Boston and SF.
The Toronto Can Car Brill ETBs were delivered during the late 40s and lasted, with a face lift and rebuild until 1993. That's as good as the PCCs.
Bob,
You misread my comment. I said 11 feet from the center line of the trolley wires. On a four-lane street, the wires are usually placed 3 feet from the center between the lanes. That usually means the coach can pull to the curb to load, or pull into the inside lane to pass a slower vehicle or a double parked one.
Hi Dan- Thanks for the information. What I've been mainly doing is gathering up comments and technical information.
I think the folks on SUBTALK have alot more technical information at their fingertips, and in their heads, and relevant points of view than do the so called "experts" of the consulting world, who wont give anyone a straight answer about anything anyway.
Everyone on Subtalk has been extremely helpful and forthcoming with information, ideas and viewpoints.
[Passenger capacity vs. light rail] - True
[Same acceleration as conventional bus] - Not on any of the ETB's I've been on, in San Francisco, Boston, and Vancouver.
[Electric bus cannot swing out far enough to change lanes] - There exist dual-mode buses with trolley poles AND diesel engines - seem em with my very eyes in Seattle.
[Wires obtrusive] - Maybe, but how would streetcar wires be any different?
[Short life span] - Those ETBs in Boston, SF, Vancouver, etc., are pushing 25. Yes, many are ready to be hacked, but they have made it thus far.
[Uses more power than light rail] - Can't imagine how, but I'm no expert on the subject so I won't argue about something I don't know much about.
[People don't like to ride them] - Yeah well, I AIN'T ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE!
[Natural Gas bus comparable to diesel] - I was never a fan of CNG buses and I always felt they were more dangerous than diesel buses - diesel is not as explosive as natural gas.
Dont get me wrong, I think trolley buses have a place in the urban transit scene, as does light rail.
Direct suspension trolley wire has a bare minimum number of components, so its less visually obtrusive.
Trolleys run on rails, so friction is reduced to a minimum. This allows trolleys to spend most of their time coasting (except on steep hills or around sharp curves). Rubber tired vehicles cant do that.
I'm trying to get together some working points, keep the comments coming !
Bob D.
The following is the TTC's sense on Natural Gas Buses and Trolleybuses
The full Report can be found here
CNG Buses
Natural gas engines are an acceptable alternative to diesel in the transit industry. However, CNG poses greater safety risks than diesel fuel in transportation, storage, fuelling and maintenance and, hence, requires greater capital investment for fuelling station construction and facility modifications.
The TTC owns 125 CNG buses, and has one CNG fuelling station, located at Wilson garage, which is operating at its maximum daily fuelling capacity. The purchase of additional CNG buses would require additional CNG fuelling stations at a cost of $6 to $7 million per station, and approximately $5 to $10 million for facility modifications for each new CNG garage. Expanding CNG bus operations would also require some facility modifications to the TTC’s indoor bus transfer and parking areas. There are nine TTC subway stations where the bus transfer facilities are underground or partially enclosed, and CNG modifications at these facilities would be in the order of $15 to $20 million.
There is currently no capital funding available for the construction of additional CNG fuelling facilities or CNG facility modifications.
Electric Trolley Bus
The TTC’s Bus Technology Study, completed in 1995, provided a comprehensive comparative evaluation of the environmental benefits and life-cycle costs of diesel and trolley buses. An optimal trolley scenario was developed to achieve the highest farebox recovery to offset the cost of the trolley infrastructure. The economic analysis demonstrated that, in equivalent service scenarios, replacing 178 diesel buses with 178 trolley buses, required $120 million more in capital costs, and 10 percent higher operating costs, with total annualised life-cycle costs increasing by 51%.
Due to the high cost premium associated with trolley bus operation, the TTC has no plans to re-instate trolley bus service.
Hybrid-Electric and Hydrogen Fuel Cell Buses
Hybrid-electric buses use an internal combustion engine and one of a variety of fossil fuels to generate electricity for electric drive motors. They are being evaluated in several cities in North America on a trial basis. The technology is too recent to have any reliable operating or cost data. Similarly, buses powered by hydrogen fuel cells are now being developed and demonstrated. All fuel cells use highly-purified hydrogen and oxygen to produce electric power – and that is difficult to provide,. A relatively small number of transit properties are currently demonstrating fuel cell-powered buses. These programs are active in Chicago and Vancouver.
TTC staff are monitoring the progress and testing of emerging power systems and will bring forward recommendations when the technologies have been refined to the point of being practical for day-to-day operations.
Thanks for the TTC report, very informative.
Is anyone familiar with Magneto Hydrodynamics (dont know if its spelled right), and if any further research is being done ?
This was a theory in which electrical power can be extracted directly from a nuclear reactor, without the need for steam driven turbines.
Ionized plasma is used instead of wires or steam. The plasma would be controlled and directed to accumulator electrodes by a system of electromagnetic field coils.
I am sending your question to a friend of mine at Raytheon in Colorado - he knows something about related technologies and may be able to answer...
The basic experimental problem is how to contain and control plasma flow. It has not been solved in a size that is practical for power generation. If it were, then the same technology could probably be used for fusion. So, MHD is a heads - you win; tails I loose proposition. Large funding started drying up in the mid 1960's.
Light rail cannot move sideways at all, making operation in street running situations to be horrible and impassable.
a good light rail installation requires its own ROW, which costs money and is impossible in built up areas, the exact same areas that need light rail.
A bus can travel in any lane, on any road an make detours easily. Busses do not require any Maintenance of Way or huge start up expenses.
Hybrid busses pollute a lot less than standard busses, making investment in electric traction useless.
??.........!
You're right. I guess the only argument for lr, which is so popular now in new systems in the US, particularly the West, is that people who have never used transit before are more likely to try lr than to get on a bus, which might have poor people, or worse, negroes, on board. 'Member Rosa Parks?
Judging from experience I'd have to say some of what you're thinking exists in the east too. Although even my kids hate riding a Greyhound and a lot of Montana people never use it.I personally have no problems in that area.
I have people in my family who wouldn't ride the subway if they had a choice, had neighbors back then who felt the same way. Likewise avoided going to NYCity beaches, etc. The worst offenders are probably the Limousine Liberals.
If 90% of people of any race are good, some have more problems than others true, and I do have my feelings about the bad of some groups but then hate bad whites equally...but why should I or anybody object to riding with people are just have to get someplace?
Light rail is something new to most of these people and roomier than a bus; likewise in most areas light rail can MOVE where even on freeways busses can't in rush hour. At one time the raggedy [in some people's minds] trolleys were in disfavor for busses.Many New Yorkers pay a premium fare for an express bus and don't ride rails.
All in the eyes of those involved I guess.
Actually, three things:
A - LRT doens't get stuck in TRAFFIC. Any new system will run in seperate lanes, but fixed-guideway systems are the only dependable transit in existence, be they light rail, heavy rail, or monorail.
B - LRT is SMOOTH. Modern LRVs are almost eerily quiet when compared to even the smoothest buses.
C - Rail Bias. People have a prejudice against buses that is less racial and more classist. Buses are seen as a "low-income" ride, only for people "who can't afford cars."
So light rail wins for the needs of inter-regional
In regard to...
"than to get on a bus, which might have poor people, or worse, negroes, on board. 'Member Rosa Parks?"
I assume (and I could be wrong) that you are just an immature high school or college student who still uses liberal cliches to explain everything. When you grow up, you will realize that spouting liberal dismissive buzz words shows a lack of knowledge of the real world, and that most adults in this world do not actually fulfill your wishful thinking that you can dismiss their actions as "racist", "middle-class", etc.
Contrary to what you believe, most people avoid city busses because they are slow, infrequent, and unreliable, and compared to auto driving in MOST parts of the country, a second-best solution to getting anywhere. Most people, including most poor people, own cars, hard as that may be to believe. Light rail runs more frequently on a more predictable ROW, has a greater capacity because it is a main line into town from feeder bus routes and parking lots, and moves more smoothly, and for that reason is more popular.
When a city is really densely populated, like San Francisco, NYC, Boston, or Philadelphia, public transit it quite popular. The more of it that is on rails, the more popular it is.
Although my original comment was sarcasm, I grew up in parts of the country where racism is alive and well, and quite blatant. I am impressed though, how you were able to "assume" from one unserious comment an entire paragraph's worth about who I am and what I believe.
"Contrary to what you believe, most people avoid city busses because they are slow, infrequent, and unreliable, and compared to auto driving in MOST parts of the country, a second-best solution to getting anywhere."
Exactly. I use the rails to go downtown, weekday or weekend, for work or pleasure. Rail is faster than driving during the week and cheaper than parking all the time. But I only ride buses when I'm downtown or in other densely-populated neighborhoods of the city because driving is inherently faster than the buses. My decision has nothing to do with the class of people I expect to encounter on either mode of transport.
("Contrary to what you believe, most people avoid city busses because they are slow, infrequent, and unreliable, and compared to auto driving in MOST parts of the country, a second-best solution to
getting anywhere." ) (Exactly. I use the rails to go downtown, weekday or weekend, for work or pleasure. Rail is faster than driving during the week and cheaper than parking all the time.)
I think its the lack of a private, grade separated ROW that dooms the buses, not the vehicles themselves (now that there are fewer fumes). If you are on the street hitting lights AND making stops, you are going to be slow. If you are slow, you will only draw people with no choice. And to have low ridership without staggering subsidies, you have to be infrequent, which just makes things worse.
Hence, I believe the 42nd St Light Rail is a bad idea, but I believe buses (and light rail) can work on their own ROW. For example, lots of people in NJ ride the buses on the highways into the counterflow lane at the Lincoln Tunnel, because it's quick.
Transit has to overcome the fact that it doesn't leave right from where you are, doesn't go right to where you're going, doesn't go non-stop between the two, and doesn't leave right when you want it to. If you have a private ROW, that plus the lack of need to park, might make it competitive in places where congestion is high. If you're just on the street, it ain't so hot.
"I think its the lack of a private, grade separated ROW that dooms the buses, not the vehicles themselves (now that there are fewer fumes)."
That's exactly what I meant when I said buses are inherently slower than driving. A bus has to drive in the same traffic as an automobile so it can't be faster, and every stop it makes renders it slower than a car on the same street. Fewer stops speed up a bus but also make it less useful to people along the way.
And that's why for 11 years I only needed a "station car". My new job requires a real car, which I bought with 24K and now has 108K.
In my driving life time the cost of new autos has gone from a couple thousand to 30 or 40. Doesn't that mean that more folks are taking buses and other forms of mass transit because they have no choice, i.e. can't afford a new car every 3 or 4 years ?
I also remember my days at Pan AM where a group of union guys car pooled from Suffolk & had a fit if there wasn't enough OT for ALL of them on the night it was offered. My point here is that car pooling hasn't caught on for various reasons to streach out the time between new car purchases.
Mr t__:^)
New cars can still be bought for under $20,000; even Buicks at end of year clearnce. I don't depend on a car, even in Montana...if it don't go the mission can wait. So I drive junk. Sometimes lucky, sometimes wasted money.
You must be somewhere near my 57 years? I can remember the $2000-3000 for new cars, even less when I was little. Going by Motorman wages...from reading the papers, about 1957 annual wage was about $5200, meaning about $2.50 per hour...rough est. Now 10 times that; so don't know who got the better deal on cars. For low income people another story.Big time. Still in terms of inflation the new cars are still terribly high. A lot of that due to federal mandates.
People don't need Caddy's BMW's, SUV's etc...must be a lot of money to burn..or borrow.
Your final point is the tip of the iceberg, i.e. borrow.
Folks lease because they can't afford to buy others now regularly use mass transit for the same reason.
BTW, my first NEW car was a 1968 Dodge Charger ... bought it right off the showroom floor.
Mr t__:^)
That's only true if you let private cars on the public streets.
Light rail is just a heavy ass bus that can't move around obstructions. If you've ever been to Monorails.org they give a very convincing arguement (it won me over) for monrails instead of light rail. A few points described in their site:
The "light" in light rail only refers to passenger load. They're heavier than subways
The construction of light rail will disrupt traffic along a road for a while.
The frequent accidents light rail has when it's not grade seperated
The "light" in light rail only refers to passenger load. They're heavier than subways
Of course you realize that's a joke. "Light rail" refers to the comparison with "heavy rail", such as commuter trains.
Isn't subway considered "heavy rail?"
Yes, at the APTA web site, heavy rail is synonmous with subway. Commuter rail is its own category.
the actual tare weight of cars is often similar to "rapid transit" cars--remember the CTA 6000's were essentially PCC's on third rail structures. This modern euphemism for trolley cars is just so much BS designed to be 'moderne'. PROW grade separated or reserved by midian curbs is of course preferable. But before condmning "classic" streetcar trackage note that in the rankings of warm bodies per route mile several US "light rail" systems outperform so-called heavy rail. and at far lower installed cost.
>>http://www.publicpurpose.com/ut-wrail.htm<<
Denver's LRVs weigh in at about 44 tons apiece. They are so quiet they can sneak up on you if you're not careful.
Light rail has proven to be enormously popular in the Mile High City. RTD recently put in an order for 12 more vehicles because ridership has been so heavy. This is on top of a 6-car order placed a year ago for use on the Central Platte Valley Spur.
I'll say this: even in snowy weather, light rail keeps going when buses get snarled.
Light rail, I believe refers to the density of the rails themselves. Some LRT cars are heavier than subways, but that is because they are double length cars.
Also, commuter rail lines are under the jurisdiction of the FRA, so if you can claim you've got a subway or LRT, you can avoid a lot of unnecessary rules. (That's probably the real reason Washington's Metro is the way it is since, let's face it, outside the District it is a very frequent commuter train on its own separate ROW. I am not complaining, I bet those people in Boston or Philadelphia or even on the LIRR who get one commuter train per hour would love to have a subway roll along the same tracks every 10 minutes.)
Light rail, because it is made to go slower and to use shorter trains and less powerful motors, can be built to run anywhere, so it can be put in place for less money, and again not have to worry about FRA jurisdiction.
The following is from 49 CFR Part 213, which contains FRA regulations concerning Track Safety Standards:
"Sec. 213.3 Application.
"(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, this part
applies to all standard gage track in the general railroad system of
transportation.
"(b) This part does not apply to track--
(1) Located inside an installation which is not part of the general
railroad system of transportation; or
(2) Used exclusively for rapid transit operations in an urban area
that are not connected with the general railroad system of
transportation."
If that doesn't give you a severe case of mental indigestion, click here.
Yes well if you like monorail (I am a monorail convert too, although i still believe there are cases where LRT is better suited to the task at hand) you should move out by me - Seattle! Seattleites voted YES on our second monorail initiative with a higher percentage than any mayor EVER won by. WHen the real proposal comes out in 2002, the answer will be a resounding "yes" and you will soon see a large monorail system serving the entire city. Seattlites are fed up with waiting 'til 2009 for a so-called light rail "starter system" that is over a billion dollars over budget when construction hasn't even started yet. SoundTransit has gotten approved for 500 mil to bui the tunnel and if they're as dumb as they look (likely) then they might try to build it. But they don't even have the money for the south line (Rainier Valley, SeaTac airport) and the monorail is going to go there instead. Just you watch.
I was out there, and riding the monorail was pretty fun. I still like subways better, though. How would the monorail be extended? They really can't extend it from Seattle Center. The only choice they have is to rebuild the other end so that the rails aren't so close to together and make it a regular stop.
To the south, extending it is no sweat, although the Westlake station would have to be rebuilt. To the north, the existing Seattle Center terminal would either be disconnected and relegated to a monorail museum, or else served by a switch. There will actually be two lines through downtown (two tracks won't be enough to carry all the trains) and the other one will probably be on 2nd Ave. What will become of the Seattle Center terminal is uncertain. STill wanna know the routes? Based on my *ahem* "off the record *ahem* emails with prominent transit dudes, may I offer this map I made. The blue, green, and yellow lines are the system that will be put to the voters in 2002. The dashed red is a future express line that will be provided for (switches in place) but not built. keep in mind this is all subject to change, as there are 21 months remaining to study the routes before it's put to the voters. But here's what it looks like now:
http://www.geocities.com/talgo79/monorailmap.jpg
---Abe
That's a cool map, and your confidence is refreshing, however I'm a little more cynical/skeptical. Who's gonna pay for it? Also, what are the little haloes near the stations? Have you ever seen Jacksonville's monorail? It's quite a nice start, but the capacity is very low and the current system doesn't really go anywhere. I was very impressed that it was built at all. But then in FL there really is no density to make transit worthwhile. If people want to sprawl, I say let them.
I'd love to take credit for the whole thing, but I just stole that map of the Elevated Transit Company's website. The map is at http://www.elevated.org/stations.htm. The halos represent station locations as specified in the now-defunct initiative 41. Now as for the Seattle monorail....
Your comments seem a little shortsighted to me. Looking at Jacksonville's people-mover and concluding that monorails have low capacity is like looking at a 5 bench open-air Brill trolley car and concluding that 8-car LRV consists (like in Sacramento) don't exist. The truth is monorails can be as teeny as an amusement park ride, or they can be as long and as fast as a New York Subway train. The difference is no one in the USA has gotten off their asses and built one. It may not be the prettiest monorail in existence, but check out this photo of the Tokyo-Haneda monorail in Japan: http://monorails.org/tMspages/TokyoH.html. Looks like pretty high capacity to me! Likewise, the two 1961 monorail trains are short, but seat 5 across. You see, you can make a monorail very wide because it's not running on teeny flanges on a couple of rails that aren't even 5 feet apart.
As for finances, it'll happen. Who'll pay for it? Seattle. The monorail measure, when put on the ballot in 2002, will be a city-wide measure. So none of the car-driving suburbanites who think more roads are the only solution will have a say in it. It'll be citywide taxes in a city that realizes its traffic is bad. Most of the anti-light rail people realize that the monorail will also effectively kill SoundTransit's light rail project so they'll vote for it, too. People don't have to ride monorails to like one - they carry with them a "futuristic" feel and as such have immense curb appeal. Don't believe me? An independent survey found that 52% of L.A. residents thought that a "monorail" was the best solution to their traffic problems, wiht light rail trailing distantly at 18%. The remaining 31% was all the other modes (expanding the subway, better bus service, more freeway lanes, etc). In short, Seattle's monorail is coming down the tracks. And it's going to KICK @$$.
Is Seattle very dense? (Pardon my ignorance, but I've never been to the left coast). According to my almanac, Seattle is roughly half the density of Philadelphia, but Philadelphia includes some very suburban portions, and I don't know if this is also the case for Seattle.
Seattle is about as dense as most other older western cities - most of the older neighborhoods (where the monorail would serve) are two-stoory single-family homes on small lots. Then there are the apartment buildings that exist already and will inevitably spring up along the monorail line. In short, it's not DENSE< but it's still heavy enough to support good ridership....
I believe that Monorails are not a good transit alternative. THey're an oddball technology, and will cost significantly more in the long run.
-Hank
Light rail can be a good alternative to heavy rail for a few reasons.
1. Station access and construction is easier fare control can be on bord and you can have walkways across the tracks.
2. You can have grade level crossing without having to deal with third rail on the streets.
3. You can reach high speeds in exclusive right of way that cannot be turned into car pool lanes by pols.
Station access and construction is easier fare control can be on bord and you can have walkways across the tracks.
Check out LA, heavy rail with on board fare control. Heavy rail can also have track crossings, just check out commuter rail.
You can have grade level crossing without having to deal with third rail on the streets.
You can have heavy rail with overhead wire, and commuter rail, even third rail based systems like the LIRR and MNRR have plenty of grade crossing.
You can reach high speeds in exclusive right of way that cannot be turned into car pool lanes by pols.
And heavy rail can't do this?
"Check out LA, heavy rail with on board fare control. Heavy rail can also have track crossings, just check out commuter rail."
Commuter rail is slow and pedestrian track crossings only work with low platform and overhead power.
You can reach high speeds in exclusive right of way that cannot be turned into car pool lanes by pols.
"You can have heavy rail with overhead wire, and commuter rail, even third rail based systems like the LIRR and MNRR have plenty of grade crossing."
But light rail lines are safer and more convenient for drivers on major roads. Also is third rail and grade crossings a safe mix?
You can reach high speeds in exclusive right of way that cannot be turned into car pool lanes by pols.
And heavy rail can't do this?
I have yet so see heavy rail that can run like the B C E lines in Boston.
Commuter rail is slow and pedestrian track crossings only work with low platform and overhead power.
Untrue and untrue!
But light rail lines are safer and more convenient for drivers on major roads. Also is third rail and grade crossings a safe mix?
Only idiots walk down the tracks to touch the third rail.
And running trains in the streets is a recipe for disaster.
"Only idiots walk down the tracks to touch the third rail."
True but those idiots might wind up costing transit lots of money.
"And running trains in the streets is a recipe for disaster."
how so Boston has some and saftey is not an issue.
As to commuter rail from what a know diesel is much slower than electric.
True but those idiots might wind up costing transit lots of money.
Only because transit agencies don't have the PR balls to take on the cripple in court, win and show an example to other idiots that the tracks are no place to play.
how so Boston has some and saftey is not an issue.
The Green Line is more crowded and slow than the red, orange or blue lines.
As to commuter rail from what a know diesel is much slower than electric.
We're not talking about diesel here, don't bring it up.
I have yet so see heavy rail that can run like the B C E lines in Boston.
If you are refering to really fast speeds, ride BART, MARTA, WMATA or Monreal Metro.
Light rail is the best way to go buses suck. the accidents between cars and light rail is 99% the fault of the car's driver not keeping aware of the conditions of the traffic,light rail on Portland is very popular and is gtrowingthe roads are being ruined by the large amount of traffic which must be closed to have repair work done so don't complain about light rail construction when it gets done people are happy and use the light rail.buses stink the air to high heaven,just get stuck in traffic behind one,try pushing a broken down bus when it's blocking a narrow street.
The exhaust of a bus is nothing compared to the 50 cars it replaces.
But a light rail train carries three times that a single bus does.....with no stink,and less cost and a savings in diesel fuel,buses are not fuel efficent not by a long shot.
except in California brown outs
Ya got me................8-(
i do not know but the los angeles BLUE LINE is a succes ( the only good story here ) & it runs where the rightaway of the
good old PE red cars used to run !! the green / red lines, incompatible with each other is another sad story !! that does sux!!
Just an afterthought, about ETB's not being able to go around obstacles - a streetcar would be pretty screwed if there was an obstruction of some sort on the tracks. At least an ETB would have a shot at going around it.
Just a few technical points:
Acceleration and braking should be comparable to a PCC.
The big limiting factor for a diesel bus is that diesel
engine.
The CO2 issue is even bigger than this debate. Basically,
any time a kWh of energy is produced by the reaction
C+O2 - > CO2, the same amount of CO2 will be produced for
that energy. That's for any fossil fuel, in a stationary
power plant or in a gasoline, diesel, CNG, Alchohol or LNP
engine. Certainly there are some efficiency differences between
systems that are significant, but unless the electricity is
being generated by a non-fossil plant, it doesn't matter if it
is a trolley, trolleybus or internal combustion bus.
That's true, and that's why the benefits of CNG lie in lack of particulate emissions, lack of sulfur in emissions; its drawbacks in the slightly lower fuel efficiency and the lack of CNG applications in higher-capacity buses (such as articulated models, which MTA has stated are not available in CNG). And yes, depot considerations are part of this debate - CNG handling hazards vs. heavy diesel fumes from a diesel depot.
Thanks to everyone for taking such an interest in this. I have a really good handle now as to what the central issues are. This is the first time I ever saw an interesting exchange of ideas on urban surface transit.
If there are anymore comments or observations, please keep them coming.
Thanks,
bob d.
Bob, you might try posting some questions/comments on the BusTalk side.
Mr t__:^)
May I also mention that a CNG-equipped bus has MUCH SLOWER acceleration than the same bus equipped with a diesel engine? Over the course of a scheduled half-hour route the CNG/Diesel difference can be 5-7 minutes.
Well I may beg to differ. The Cummins L10G may be slower than Cummins diesel engines, but the Detroit diesel Series 50G is just as fast as the diesel version, maybe even a tad faster.
To add to John's point ... a engine designed for diesel won't be as good as one designed for CNG. Case in point we have two John Deer's that run much cooler then our Detroit's. The slugishness of the Cummings CNGs' is well known.
Mr t__:^)
Think I saw a Deere bus (with the sticker) near Queensboro plaza from the 7 train. Too bad I was too far away to hear it!
Look for 404 & 437 that's them.
Mr t__:^)
The bus I saw was 404.
...same amount of CO2 will be produced for
that energy. That's for any fossil fuel, in a stationary
power plant or in a gasoline, diesel, CNG, Alchohol or LNP
engine.
The CO2 emitted by burning alcohol is CO2 that was recently removed from the atmosphere by the biomass from which the alcohol was derived. The CO2 released by burning fossil fuels was removed from the atmosphere millions of years ago. The CO2 situation regarding burning alcohol is nearly a steady-state, except for the additional energy expended processing the alcohol. Of course, additional energy is also expended processing fossil fuels.
And how do you tink the additional energy to process the alcohol was derived? Nothing is a "steady state."
Your comparison is technically or semantically correct, but irrelevant to a decision maker.
Thank you for your irrelevant response.
Here are some things people should know about "trolley buses".
Almost all the points you listed are wrong. Let's go through them one by one. I'll even add a real disadvantage that you missed.
First, an electric bus has only a fraction of the passenger carrying capacity of a comparable light rail car.
An electric bus is a bus. It has the same dimensions as a bus - not the dimensions of a light rail car. It has the same capacity as a bus of similar size - or a LRV of similar size. The capacity of a 60' articulated trolleybus is greater than that for a PCC - again it's apples and oranges. Try comparing a double-decked trolleybus from England to a Birney.
Second, an electric bus has the same poor acceleration and braking characteristics of a conventional bus. Neither compares to even a humble PCC trolley car.
Completely false. Trolleybuses - as opposed to battery powered electric buses - have far greater acceleration than diesels. They use DC motors that provide max torque at 0 rpm as opposed to a diesel. The acceleration can knock down an unsuspecting passenger used to diesels. Regarding acceleration versus a PCC - the trolleybus has slightly better maximum acceleration due to the better adhesion of the rubber tire to asphalt than steel wheel to rail adhesion.
Third, contrary to popular belief, an electric bus cannot swing out far enough from its wires to do a lane change.
They can do a single lane change in either direction from the wires. I've ridden many many trolley busses that will pick up at curbside and move into one of two travel lanes on a 3 lane roadway.
Fourth, if you have ever seen an electric bus installation, the wires are amazingly visually obtrusive. Light rail trolley wires are a godsend compared to electric bus wires.
The wires are certainly visible. Whether they are obtrusive is a question for esthetics. They do provide one benefit at no cost. They tell the waiting passenger that a bus is coming. The first indication for a bus is the vertical swaying of the wires. This no cost feature provides just as much warning as a fancy GPS based system.
Fifth, an electric bus has the a life span almost as short as a conventional bus, under 15 years. A light rail car lasts from 40 to 100 years, such as 50 year old PCC's now overhauled and running in San Franciso and Kenosha.
Trolleybuses require less maintenance than conventional buses. They do not last as long as trolleys because they do not control their right of way. Two generations of trolleybuses running out of Harvard Sq point to a life span of 20 to 30 years.
Sixth, an electric bus uses up more electric power than a light rail car. In fact, an electric bus costs much more to operate than any other type of street running transit vehicle (except for natural gas buses), and requires many more support personnel, as they are breakdown prone. In other words, an electric bus combines all of the weak points of a light rail car and a conventional bus, but has none of the clear cut advantages of either.
The NYCBOT published their monthly expenses minutely broken down into categories, routes, depots, etc. The trolleybus fleet was the least expensive to operate. The trolleys were the most expensive due to right of way maintenance. The diesels had higher maintenance and fuel costs.
Seventh, people dont like to ride electric buses. When Muni replaced the electric buses on the "F" line with PCC trolleys not too long ago,the ridership of the line doubled immediately.
Generally speaking, people prefer any conveyance that provides frequent, fast transportation with a pleasant ambiance. The propulsion method is of secondary concern. So far as any rider preference survey - there was one undertaken by the PTC in the late 1940's. The survey results showed riders perferred trolleybuses to trolleys or diesel buses. Of course, that was before the National City takeover.
As for natural gas powered buses, it should be noted that while they may burn fuel somewhat cleaner than a diesel power bus, they produce just as much Carbon Dioxide as a diesel bus. Carbon Dioxide is one of the most offensive of all the Greehouse Effect Gasses. Natural gas buses actually use more fuel than a diesel bus, because they weigh much more.
There will not be much difference for CO2 emission. Trolleybuses do provide the possibility for using non fossil fuel generation, as does LRV. The energy conversion for electric vehicles is far more efficent than for diesels - so one would expect less CO2 emission even for fossil fuel electric generation.
Trolleybuses do have one disadvantage - SNOW. You can't put chains on them and the sand blown under the wheels doesn't work.
just out of curiosity... why can't trolley buses have chains on them??
Does any one know why snow chains cant be put on trolleybuses, or what they do instead?
I can't think of any instance where chains etc. have been needed on an electric bus because the roads on which they ran had more than adequate snow clearing.
Also, I do not see any reason why snow chains can't be put on an electric bus anyways.
-Robert King
I don't have a definite answer, but I thought up a reason this afternoon that could in fact be true. First off, light rail uses one wire overhead because the negative is returned thru the rails. Trolley buses have two because they have rubber tires, so the negative has to go thru another overhead wire to complete the circuit. Maybe if chains are put on, it will create another circuit to the ground and cause a lot of arcing when the wheels turn. Also, someone might brush up aganist the chains and get shocked.
I think youve hit the nail on the head. The entire body of the electric bus must be part of the "ground circuit", or negative trolley lead.
Earth ground is a quite a different thing from the negative lead of the trolley bus wire, and you would get lots of sparks whenever the bus with chains travelled over a manhole casting, or any other metallic object.
A shock hazard would certainly be created too.
[The entire body of the electric bus must be part of the "ground circuit", or negative trolley lead. ]
I don't see why? Your toaster's case is probably not connected to electrical ground.
Arti
If the toaster case is metal, it's connected to the third prong, which goes to ground just like neutral (the bigger of the two main prongs).
[If the toaster case is metal, it's connected to the third prong, which goes to ground just like neutral (the bigger of the two main prongs). ]
Most consumer appliances (like my toaster) don't have a "third prong"
The case is isolated from the power supply.
Arti
The case is made out of plastic or a poorly conducting metal.
Otherwise a bad wire could make contact with the case.
[The case is made out of plastic or a poorly conducting metal. ]
Mine is made out of metal. What kind of poorly conducting metal would you sugest?
Arti
OB OT Subject change
The ground prong can be dispensed with if the power wiring
is double-isolated from any exposed metal surfaces. Most
modern 2-prong toasters are made of plastic with some sheet
metal for decorative purposes.
So if a person with wet shoes standing on a wet street touched the metal body of a trplley bus, he'd get a shock? I'm skeptical.
Yeah, that's probably the only thing that prevents me from thinking my theory is entirely correct.
Why can't the body of the trolleybus be insulated from both sides of the power circuit?
Well said Stephen.
I wonder about the last point though... ETBs having trouble with snow. I cannot recall the trolleybuses here in Toronto having any more problems than the streetcars.
ETBs are in Boston, Edmonton and were in Calgary and Montreal. Surely snow was not a great problem...
See my previous note above...
I used electric buses extensively for several years and they never had any problems in wintertime. The only remarkable effect of winter on the electric buses were that there could be some nice arcs and flashes as the shoes moved along the wires while the bus was pulling traction power.
ETBs are in Boston,...
Actually, it was while I was living in Boston during the late 1950's, that I found out about the trackless trolley/snow problem. Back then about 1/3 the surface fleet was trackless trolley. They all went except for a few lines that used the subway in Harvard Sq around 1961 or '62. Even the Harvard-Lechemere Line - the first Boston's first trackless trolley went and the line had to terminate upstairs.
The snow problem with trolleybuses or trackless trolleys, as they say in Boston, does not exist, if the streets are well plowed. Trolleybuses can't use chains because of what might happen should a chain break. There is a very good possibility that the chain could come in contact with the hot wire and with the a salt snow brine on the ground electrocute some passersby.
The problem is not limited to the hot wire. In Boston, the return wire was not quite at ground potential. They had to replace the metal poles in the middle of the doorway with non-conducting bakelite. Passengers would get a noticeable jolt when the simultaneously touched the real ground and the trolley bus return.
I'm electrically confused. What doorway? Are you saying the
replacement poles caused the problem or were its solution>
The negative wire in a 2-wire system is not supposed to be
grounded at each pole. The span wires that support the overhead
should be insulated from the line poles.
I also don't understand the concern about chains. Why would
a broken chain be likely to contact a hot conductor on the bus?
It would just thrash about in the wheel well. Besides, any
wiring under the floor is in conduit.
I'm electrically confused. What doorway? Are you saying the replacement poles caused the problem or were its solution>
The front doors on the trackless trolleys were wide enough for passengers to enter and leave simultaneously. They were outward moving accordian type doors just like the doors on Boston's PCC cars. A vertical pole,in the center of the doorway and anchored to the body frame was used to assist passengers getting on and off. These poles were originally chrome plated and conducting. They tried wrapping them with electrical tape and finally replaced them with non-conducting poles.
The negative wire in a 2-wire system is not supposed to be grounded at each pole. The span wires that support the overhead should be insulated from the line poles.
The "negative" or more accurately return wire was connected to the bus frame. There was a potential difference between this return wire and actual earth ground. Passengers were able to feel this potential difference, when they provided a conducting path with their bodies. The use of non-conducting poles eliminated the problem and gave the passengers a nice ride in a Faraday shield.
I also don't understand the concern about chains. Why would a broken chain be likely to contact a hot conductor on the bus? It would just thrash about in the wheel well.
I posed a similar question regarding why buses did not use chains during the last snowstorm. There were two buses stuck in 3 or 4 inches of snow near my house. One respondant stated that the wheel wells are not as strong as they once were.
Besides, any wiring under the floor is in conduit.
I don't know what the wiring arrangement was. I'm sure they did not use or at least did not maintain NEMA-4 packaging. There may have been a greater chance for snow and salt getting into any conduit and corroding the wiring. This would be a problem with any electric vehicle. Perhaps, the chains would provide an additional means for starting an opening.
In any case, Boston Elevated and the MTA did not use chains on the trackless fleet. It certainly did limit its usefullness considering the sloth with which streets were plowed. None of the other posters has yet given instances where chains are definitely used with ETB's. They certainly are used in many snow belt cities from Toronto to Moscow.
Chains are not used in Seattle. Instead, virtually every trolleybus line in Seattle has a "snow route" which avoids major hills. The worst problem in Seattle is ice, not deep snow. Winters here are very mild, and so a freeze-thaw-freeze-thaw cycle can be repeated many times over the course of a week (as opposed to cities like Toronto, which never go above 32F for months at a time). This leaves a nice coat of ice on the roadway, and also causes some spectacular accidents on the freeways. Some of Seattle's trolleybus lines climb grades of more than 20% (I'd like to see an LRV do that) and even a trolley can't make it up those with ice.
Some of Seattle's trolleybus lines climb grades of more than 20% (I'd like to see an LRV do that)
I think that's a bit of an exageration. I'll be happy to get a accurate estimate using the DeLorme TopoUSA to settle the argument. Where is this 20% grade located?
I think the chains thing is peculiar to Boston.
I will double check next time I'm near a wiring diagram for one,
but I'm pretty sure that on a TT the body is supposed to be
floating. Connecting the negative wire to the body is very
dangerous: should the negative pole dewire the vehicle would
be at a healthy 600V potential to ground.....same sort of fun
as when you've run your trolley car onto a very rusty or icy
stretch of track.
A follow-up. I checked a few sources. On a trolley bus,
the body is floating. The negative pole lead is not connected
to the body. The reason is exactly as I had earlier stated:
if the negative pole were connected to the body, and the pole
dewired or there was some other interruption in the negative
line, then the body would be hot.
I have no explanation as to why these passengers were getting
zinged on Boston tts, but perhaps there were wiring faults
between the traction power harness and the body. Even 50K
or so of leakage can make for an interesting, but probably
not lethal experience.
I stand corrected on the trackless trolley body grounding.
A 50K leakage would be a potential disaster. A human body is about 500K (hand to toe). As a leg in a voltage divider circuit, the human body would get 90% of the open circuit voltage. That would be 540 volts, assuming that the person were barefoot and standing on a ground rod. I would think that a 50 Meg leakage would provide the needed safety margin.
Voltage doesn't kill, current does, if I remember correctly 50mA is lethal. Of course "50K leakage" @ 600V would kill, as the current would be around 1A.
Arti
First off, we're talking about getting an uncomfortable tingle, not electrocuting potential paying passengers. Second, 600 v with a 50K resistor produces 12 ma not 1 A. Third, if we include the resistance of the human body, it becomes 600 v across 550K or 1.1 ma.
"Second, 600 v with a 50K resistor produces 12 ma "
Must be too early, forgot that 1000
"it becomes 600 v across 550K or 1.1 ma"
That would cause uncomfortable tingle, probably.
Arti
So, the coach body is "floating". I think I can see where the current leakage problems come from.
As we know, the dielectric capacity of insulation naturally decreases with age, this can be greatly accelerated by the environment as well. The insulation in the traction motors, and the wiring in the vehicle itself looses some of its properties.
The positive and negative leads in trolley bus motors may not be directly connected to the coach body, but the motor frames themselves most likely are. As motor insulation weakens, even just a little, the current will leak into the coach body. If a motor flashes over, or partially shorts out, current will leak into the body.
Currents seeking any insulation defect, or short in any of the 600 volt auxiliary circuits can also find their way into the coach body, such as through defects in the lighting, heating, MG or static converter, etc.
In a rail car, these problems would simply blow a fuse or a circuit breaker. In a vehicle with "floating ground", such as an electric bus, it can be a real problem to alighting passengers, as they become the easiest path to the earth.
An old timer recently related a story to me, about how in the early 1960's, a passenger boarding an electric bus in Brooklyn was burned, due to a motor or wiring fault, and this incident played a mojor role in the removal of electric buses in NYC.
Folks who operate electric buses may want to think about meggering them on a regular basis.
An old timer recently related a story to me, about how in the early 1960's, a passenger boarding an electric bus in Brooklyn was burned, due to a motor or wiring fault, and this incident played a mojor role in the removal of electric buses in NYC
Just when in the early 1960's did this occur?
Was told verbally that it occured ca '60 or '61. Might make an interesting research project for someone into microfilmed newspapers.
Was told verbally that it occured ca '60 or '61.
Let me narrow it down further. Last day of operation was July 27, 1960.
On the second point.....
They have one helluva lot more acceleration and braking rate than disel buses. Obviously you have never ridden one.
On the third point.....
Obviously you have never SEEN one in operation either. Theymost certainly can do lane changes without losing contact with the wire. That's about the only way they can run the 30 line in San Francisco with all the double parked delivery trucks on Stockton Street in Chinatown....and many other locations around San Francisco.
Fourth point.....
The wires aren't any more "obtrusive" than those of a rail system. There's just two wires instead of one.
Fifth point.....
You're totally wrong here. Their lifespan is a helluva lot longer than 15 years that you quote. The Flyers in San Francisco, Vancouver, and Dayton are well over 20 years old. And as much as San Francisco's are a little beat up, they run quite well.
Sixth point.....
I won't argue about power consumption, as I don't know the facts. But more breakdown prone?????? I don't think so. Go up to San Francisco and see what breaks down the most. Their "light rail" cars. The worst thing I have seen happen with an ETB is a dewiring which takes maybe a minute or so to correct. And if an ETB does break down, the rest of the vehicles on the line CAN continute service by just going around the broken down vehicle. They're not waiting in line on the rails behind it.
Seventh point.....
Yeah right. Is that why the electric bus routes are the most heavily patronized in San Francisco??? Wake up. People don't give a flying rat's ass what kind of bus they ride as long as it gets their fat asses across town. Oh sure, ridership on the F line doubled. But had they stuck the trouble-prone Bredas out there, they'd avoid it like the bubonic plague. It was a novelty thing and still is.
That's such a load of crap. Electric buses are cheaper to produce than light rail cars, a system is cheaper to build, and it can be up and running in a much faster time frame.
The visual impact of the wires is identical between light rail and ETBs.
ANd an ETB has a LONGER lifespan than a similar diesel bus, simply due to the reduced weight and moving parts. The only reason those PCC cars are still going 50 years later is neccisity. Until recently, no one wanted to upgrade their systems, and they were perfectly willing to let the infrastructure rot until they could install diesel bus lines.
-Hank
Randy Kennedy from the Times is doing a small column about people who refuse to use Metrocards for any reason. If you're one of these people give him a call, 212-556-3749, or email him at kennedyr@nytimes.com
Thanks,
Dave
My Grandmother refused to even buy more than one token at a time. "Why should I let THEM hold on to my money" was her attitude. Too bad she is no longer with us >G<.
Because some people are crazy and just hold on to the cards too hard. When they do, it bends the card and they swipe faster and faster so it *may* work. It doesn't. So they get all angry, refuse to learn how to use it properly and use the classic token. I'm not one of those people. The original Blue cards seemed thinner than today's Gold ones.
I'm bad - I'm just lazy. I misplace or lose pieces of paper (not just Metrocards), while loose change (tokens, coins) hangs on to me. Of course, I end up paying the two-zone penalty sometimes for that.
I like Metrocards, and encourage people to use them. The fact that I don't use them often is my own fault (I do use them sometimes).
You should certainly send that over to Mr. Kennedy.
I already have.
The Gold card I just got is much thinner than the ones from a few months ago but it's still that plastic-tyvek material..
I just got a card from a Chase ATM in a bank on Fort Washington Avenue, and $15 Metrocard. It's paper, but it seems like a hybrid of sorts, definitely more plasticy than SingleRide tickets or transfers. It still looks the same otherwise.
BTW, this is an older style ATM that sucks up your ATM card at the beginning of the transfer, but it spits it out right away (new ATMs have you dip the card and pull it out, reading on the pull stroke).
What the ATM does with the card is dependant upon the bank.
-Hank
Chase has been using that speical card for years. Collectors have all three versions of it.
Mr t__:^)
"You've Got Mail" Mr. Kennedy!!
Why don't you share with us?
Read what he said in the Times !
Mr t__:^)
I posted that message well before the article was published.
You just HAVE to laugh when you walk into a crowded station, the lines at the token booth are a mile long and the MVM have no lines.
I always use them vending machines... except for that one day when they couldn't handle the time change and died, displaying a "microsoft windows" screen. (Being a tecky I still get a huge laugh out of that.).
Joe
>>>You just HAVE to laugh when you walk into a crowded station, the lines at the token booth are a mile long and the MVM have no lines<<<
I actually saw the reverse today at 34th/7th IRT station. Booth had no lines. MVMs did. I had to wait a few minutes. I don't deal with booths (haven't used one for over a year) and I've come to like the Gold Dollars.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't use booths because I never buy a Metrocard with cash anymore.
I choose to eliminate the middleman (cash gotten from an ATM).
Randy Kennedy from the Times is doing a small column about people who refuse to use Metrocards for any reason. If you're one of these people give him a call, 212-556-3749, or email him at kennedyr@nytimes.com
He won't be getting many e-mails ... people who refuse to use Metrocards probably also refuse to use computers :-)
1
Somehow that doesn't surprise me.
Peace,
ANDEE
He's an idiot who can't ride more than 47 times a month without losing a lot of money, and obviously loses 13.34 cents for every charge, not to mention the inability of continuing a trip by bus.
I'm sure he's also one of those DAMN FOOLS who cashes his paycheck or welfare check at a check cashers instead of opening a savings account, cashing checks for free and collecting interest.
Agreed and I have met him. As I said in a previous post, with his line of thinking, he should turn in his camcorder for a Suoer 8.
Peace,
ANDEE
he should turn in his camcorder for a Suoer 8
What's a Super 8?
A 12mm movie camera popular in the 70s
Peace,
ANDEE
Why was it called Super 8 if it was 12 mm?
Because 8mm was popular at the time and calling the 12mm "super8" was a marketing ploy.
Peace,
ANDEE
The Super8 (I still have a few reels of film shot when I was a kid) did not have a sound-track. Do you sometimes see the jerky home movies with the slightly faded, off-color look in commercials (when the actor or actress is talking about how "momma used to make it")? That's what Super-8 used to look like esp after years in the can.
Still, it was a nice, affordable camera. Each film cartridge had three minutes worth of film in it, and some cameras had two filming speeds.
Both Super 8 and regular 8 had the same film width, extra area was achieved by narrowing the perforation.
Arti
Pork,
I posted a response to you under Subway Surf's posting instead.
A 12mm movie camera popular in the 70s.
Peace,
ANDEE
he should turn in his camcorder for a Super 8
What's a Super 8?
Oh, GAWD I'm getting old!
pjd
LOL
ME too as my honeymoon pictures are super 8 ... no none inside the room.
Mr t__:^)
I go to NYC about 8 times a year, and I always buy more metrocard than I use. And I always forget to bring old ones when I return. Consequently I probably have 4 or 5 laying around my apt. somewhere. I'd be smarter to use tokens.
Or by Metrocards for the absolute minimum possible, then refilling as you go.
No, he's right. People who make only 1 or 2 rides a year should use token or those swipe guys.
Make sure to use the swipe guys at least a few times. Even delinquents need to eat.
It beats welfare or panhandling. Instead of being a nuissance he's a help.
Petty theft and criminal trespass are better than panhandling? Great, I'll remember that next time I go shopping. I'll pay the shoplifter instead of the cash register - and buy at a great discount. Who needs Cosco?
I'll pay the shoplifter instead of the cash register - and buy at a great discount. Who needs Cosco?
Shoplifters have almost no selection and the quality/age of the food is always a question. However with things like batteries, I have heard that those kids who sell them on the subways for $1 a package really have good merchandice and you can generally trust them.
They're not kids, they're illegal aliens.
Even better!
"...the quality/age of the food is always a question. However with things like batteries..."
I would worry about the quality and age of batteries, too. Unless you're using the batteries as little paperweights, you don't want a "stale" or used (possibly almost used up) battery that has little charge left in it. It would be easy to sell a battery with one or two days usage left in it, knowing the buyer won't find that out until the vendor is long gone and working another line.
No no, they sell them in the packages. Food, unlike batteries, can go bad in the package.
Food, unlike batteries, can go bad in the package.
Batteries can lose power over time even if they're not being used in a device.
That's why they are dated.
So it's ok to buy stolen goods, it's ok to farebeat, it's ok to pick through other folks garbage, and it's ok to support those who commit said criminal acts.
Get some therapy.
-Hank
People who make only 1 or 2 rides a year should use token or those swipe guys.
It may be hard actually to use one of those "swipe guys." For all the talk about them, I've never seen anyone selling swipes.
I have used the SubWay 3 times and I used a swipe guy for one of those trips. That's 33%.
Three times is hardly a representative sample.
Look at the MetroCards you have. There is a date printed on them. You have a YEAR after the date has expired to turn them into a Token Booth where the clerk will MOVE the remaining value to a new card.
Mr t__:^)
I recently took a quick road trip with a friend of mine from NJ, and she steadfastly does not want to get an EZ Pass. Her reason is actually a rather scary (yet mildly paranoid) one:
Her theory is that sometime in the future, the police will use the EZ pass system to fine speeders. Here's an example: say one toll plaza clokcs you going through it at 12:00, and the next one clocks you going through it at 12:20, when if you were not speeding it would have taken you 5 more minutes to arrive there.... BUSTED!
So how's that for Big Brother paranoia/potiental reality coming to a highway near you??
One more reason to take the train, I guess!
Count me as another one of those... I don't run over the limit unless it would be more dangerous not to (due to the majority of traffic running well above) but I still don't like the idea of Big Brother watching. On the GSP I use tokens, elsewhere I use cash. Heck, I rarely even use a credit card - web and phone purchases, the vet's office (I never have THAT much money in my pocket) - that's about it, otherwise I pay cash.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I use tokens to cross the bridges of NYC. My company still has some rolls of TBTA tokens that were used by Dispatchers before E-Z-Pass.
$30 for a roll of 9 ... 3.33 vs. 3.50 and TA isn't making any money on the "float" from the mim they make you keep in your account.
I also sell rolls to members of the 3/4 Ton Crew ... wouldn't make much since to other SubTalkers due to the cost of shipping.
The best part is the dirty looks I get when I hand the booth the token & ask for a receipt.
Mr t__:^)
[TA isn't making any money on the "float" from the mim they make you keep in your account. ]
They sure are, can you use those tokens for anything but toll?
Arti
The tokens are MTA Bridges and Tunnel tokens valued at $3.50 each (you need two for the V/Z Bridge). My job has two unopen cases of the still. Bridge and Tunnels won't give a refund for them until they change the price of the toll, then we can turn them in and it will be for a limited time only I'm sure.
That's my point, you are no more in control of your money than with E-Z Pass.
Arti
What about the electronic toll highways where the people who use them have dashboard mounted transponders so that a computer can track each vehicle's highway useage and issue a bill at the end of the month? Since the computer is already useing information taken from the transponder recievers at the entry and exit points on the highway the computer already has the necessary information to compute average speed and add a speeding fine to the bill...
-Robert King
I don't use EZ Pass for many of the same reasons. Its a government tracking tool that can be used to limit your freedoms in many ways. Untill they find a way to make EZ Pass completely anonemouse w/o it being a hassle (ie not sending in MO's) I might consider getting one. They should be sold from vending machines and you should be able to fill up a numbered account with cash from a kiosk. There sould also be clear and effective ways for you to shield your EZ Pass from government survailence.
Better yet EZ Pass should have an overseas compedator that dosen't have to answer to US search warrents.
Well, I can tell you one way my ass will be busted - when my father gets his EZPass statement at the end of this month and sees a toll collected at the George Washington Bridge - the last time he used the GWB going east was before he got EZP . . .
I was driving down the Palisades Parkway with my friends yesterday and got a little confused when we reached Fort Lee - and I wound up missing the "Last Exit in NJ" and found myself approaching the tollboth for the GWB. Well I had no choice but to keep going, as there was no way to bail out. So I went across, got off at 178th St and went around the bus terminal to get back on going west.
And my father specifically ordered me not to drive to, in, or around the five boroughs . . . anyway he is understanding about things like missing exits or getting on the wrong highway and stuff - it can be confusing.
Just as long as I don't do it again ;-)
There's a simple way to prevent these things:
Call EZ-Pass, add an e-mail to your account, and choose e-mail delivery of statement. I did it, so now my father doesn't get to see my tolls for the many bridges I use.
Or he could have just paid in cash. Don't tell me you don't have 44 somewhere in your car.
I did that once, I ended up paying 40 cents more for the Bayonne and $1 more for the Verazanno. With the new off peak discounts for EZ-Pass customers only, it'd be stupid not to use EZPass.
Especially if you live on Staten Island and ever have a need to go to Brooklyn.
$3.20 vs $6 does it for me.
As to the 'speeding ticket theory', EZPass, by LAW, can't be used for that. Any toll road that uses a ticket system can already do that, and they don't. And likely never will. In fact, Car and Driver printed a column last year about a guy who allegedly got one of those imaginary tickets. The following month they retracted it, and included a letter from the director of the NYS Thruway (or EZPass), which included the point about it being forbidden by law (politicians and their family members don't speed?) and also said it was impossible because the clocks at the booth computers "aren't sychronized".
And the big brother thing is crap. It's more paranoia than anything significant. Other than movies, NO ONE can ever say they've been tracked unconventialally without a court order or secondary device.
And as long as you want to throw bullshit about privacy, everyone has credit cards. And what about those wonderful supermarket discount cards?
-Hank
The government can't track you track you, but they can use EZ Pass to like help prove you committed a crime, lied, saw the assination etc. What if one day I need to commit a crime? I'd want to be able to get away with it. Things like EZ Pass give the government an unfair advantage. I believe that every American has a right to commit crimes and then try to get away with them.
You're only looking increasingly idiotic.
-Hank
Should have got off the road there or a little further south, i.e. 125th ... then you would have had a realy interting story to tell.
My first trip to NYC from CT, I got as far as Westchester. Turned around & went home ... remember old route 15 when it just had a piece of concrete down the middle ? I was driving a 1940 Nash.
Mr t__:^)
I have been a happy E-Z Pass user now for over five years, and it has been both a time AND money saver. As far as it issuing speeding tickets, most states (i.e. NY, NJ, PA for sure) must ticket a driver for speeding, not a car. The only exception is if you blow through a toll booth at 5, and I have seen people go much, much faster without recourse.
As far as hiding from crimes (ahem, Mike), as someone who has been robbed twice in the last year; if it could get my stereo and my $1,000s worth of other stuff back, three cheers for E-Z Pass. Besides, the automated toll booths may have cameras, that could capture you or the car; and a toll agent might place you at the scene too. The computer is just another tool.
This is a free country; and you are not required to sign up for it. So don't. But please, stay out of the clearly signed lanes so those of us that are secure enough to use the system may do so.
The violation speed for the EZPass toll booths is 22mph. Faster then that, you risk a fine from EZPass. But just like red-light cameras, they can't tell who was driving. So your EZPass account takes a hit. You can't fight it, since the technology used to clock you in this instance is nearly infallable. A laser measures the length of your car, and a tredle counts your axles. If the time between axles is too short, you get a violation letter. You also get a violation for an out-of-class vehicle, such as a van or a 3-axle vehicle with a car 2-axle tag.
-Hank
22? Seems like a funny speed, but kind of makes sense. Is that method used at all EZPass installs, or just the PA's/etc?
(If you don't mind me asking; was this discovery trial and error, or documented somewhere?)
I've got a freind who used to work in the imaging department at EZPass. He spent his days looking at data on vehicles and their plates, and determining if a violation should be issued, or if it was a non-payer.
-Hank
The article was published yesterday & I found one of our SubTalk friends mentioned by name. Is someone keeping a list of Sub/Bus Talkers that make it in print or on film ?
Sounds like another job for heypaul ? Or at the very least he'll have something witty to say about it.
Mr t__:^)
Add radio to that list too as some of us have been on radio.
On Thursday, September 23, 1999 I was written about in the Globe & Mail and interviewed on CBC radio's Here & Now programme hosted by Avril Benoit concerning my presentation at a TTC commission meeting the previous day where I gave a speech urging the TTC to keep their three historic streetcars and return the PCCs to good working condition and consider eventually restoring the Peter Witt ($100,000 has subsequently been budgeted to get started on it) rather than dispose of them as recommended in a staff report.
On Thursday, July 22, 2000 I was mentioned in an article about the opening of the 509 Harbourfront streetcar line, along with several other local streetcar fans. The next day, Friday, the day the actual opening ceremonies were held, Rob Lubinski and I were interviewed on CBC radio's Metro Morning programme by Andy Barrie about the opening of the new streetcar line. Having two Robs on the air talking about streetcars with Andy Barrie who is also a "Streetcar Freak" was really fun. My mother had the car radio tuned to CBC while she was driving me down to their studios that morning and we had a good laugh when Andy Barrie said on air that he was going to "talk with some streetcar freaks in the studio about the TTC's new streetcar line" later in the programme.
-Robert King
Good for you Robert, every little bit help with the public conscience.
heypaul eat you hart out.
Mr t__:^)
When i was heading home from work & getting ready to get off at Whitlock Av where i live & i saw R33 92??-92??-92??-92??-9245-9244-9279-9278-9226-9227 heading to Hunt Point Av. Last time R33 92xx ran on #6 line was back in 1986 before they went to though GOH. BTW: i haven't not seen R142a running for last 2 days & did the pull off the road??
Peace Out
David Justiniano
That's very unusual to see the R-33 redbirds running on the No. 6 line. When I've seen redbirds on that line they are usually the R-29s or the R-36s (both World's Fair and Mainline) on the No. 6 line.
BMTJeff
Yes Redbirds from Woodlawn are running on the No.6 Line. Also the R142A'S on the No.6 line have been pulled off the road as of 12AM Thursday because of increasing door problems. Some doors open when they feel like it and some doors have not been closing like what happened on my train at 68 Street. It seems like most of the door problems have happened on crowded trains. I do not know when the R142A's will be back on the road but the Redbirds from Woodlawn will be taken there place until there back on the road.
okay... so there's a problem with the new cars and crowds... so run the new cars during the midnight to 5 am hour when ridership is lowest ( or whenever ridership is lowest ) on express lines only... this way: no crowds and less station stops to have the doors open--- problem solved...
by any chance did they tie the door opening motors in with the regenerative power system, in an attempt to recover energy?
That'd be swell for my eyes.. if only there
WAS an Express Route which ran exp. Overnight
Are you saying there was a DOE or the opposite, that some
doors failed to open?
The door system was one of those areas where the TA did not
go over to complete microprocessor / network control. The
cars retain "DC1/5", 22, 24 etc. trainlines, but there is
a digital overlay system to allow real-time status display
and the recycle function. Also, the slimline overhead operators
are new (to the TA).
I vaguely recall the R-68s having door problems when they were new. Can anyone add to this?
Peace,
ANDEE
I think causes of that particular problem was that some careless commuter hold the door when the conductor closes it. They simply don't understand this phase "Stand clear of a closing door"
>>I vaguely recall the R-68s having door problems when they were new. Can anyone add to this?
Yes, I do too. IIRC, a number of R-68's were found to have started rolling out of stations spontaneously with the doors still open at the platform. I also believe this is mentioned briefly in Jim Dwyer's Subway Lives in one of the later chapter's introductory paragraphs; I do not have this book with me right now so I cannot check. Hope this helps:)
The real problem with the R-68 Doors was a production problem. More specifically, the upper door tracks, where the doors 'hang' from, caused the problems. During production, the Mfgr. three different models (Morton, Edwards & Faiveley) Only the morton track seemed to stand up tot he daily wear & tear of NY life. However, during the 12 year SMS, a new type of upper door track was installed on all 425 cars. After a short period of tweeking, no more door problems.
Thank you to James, a new contributor, who has agreed to help with thew LIRR station-by-station pages.
Now all we need is:
Shore Line East
Port Jervis NJT
Pascack Valley NJT
Main and Bergen NJT
Bob Wright is working on the rest of the regional rail lines for SEPTA. Thanks to all who have volunteered so far.
You dont have to be a great author. I can flesh out any comments and I can enhance any photos.(Please- if you have photos send me a set to keep and enclose a sheet of paper referencing the photos and the description EX: 1 on photo back. 1 on sheet of - LIRR Woodhaven Station 1956.
Please send it to me off-site via private e-mail. If You do not want to use your real name then tell me what name (if any) you want used. Also include an e-mail address so others can contact you if they have any comments/questions/feedback.
Unofficially, I am coordinating these projects(With Dave's approval) to avoid duplication.
Can you, as well, make an LIRR signal guide. Or, if it is simple enough, would someone explain it by either email or subtalk? I know, it is just a matter of dots in a pattern, but I don't ride it enough to get what the pattern is.
Any one out there that can help out with this!
While visiting Coney Island Yard today for training at my new job, I found some surprises (things I knew nothing about) that I would like to share with you and in turn add some info to the Museum Page.
I also have a scrap note to add that will be addressed separately.
Here's what I found: 1) Signal Dolly S-02 could be found sitting besides an older Dolly Work Motor on the tracks where Museum Cars are located. The older Dolly Work Motor is a Museum Car. My question is what is the the status of S-02? It no longer sees regular service with the R-22 work motors from 207th Street Yard?
2) World's Fair Motor 5655 is showing evidence of work on the body as it is getting fresh coats of olive green paint.
3) R-16s Really Rock! 6305 has had some olive green paint applied to it's body, which will improve the car's appearance.
4) Does olive green paint rule the roost? I think so! While passing the paint booth, I observed yet another Museum Car. It was none other that R-4, Car 491 (ex 401) looking better than ever. Is this the same car that came out of Jamaica Yard some time ago? Looks good, I wander about how the car is mechanically. Inquiring minds want to know.
5) On the Museum Roster, R-30 8392 is on the list. 8392 and another R-30 8401 are cars used for the Fire Training School. Somewhere on this site is a picture of a pair of R-30s sitting in the yard beside each other with the blind ends showing. The picture shows 8392 and 8401.
That's all for now! May the webmaster take notice of this and update the roster accordingly.
-Stef
Ripta42HopeTunnel and Doug BMTman reported sometime ago, on what they found down on the piers after a visit to the South Brooklyn Railway and NY Cross Harbor. There was a mention of some Blue Rail Handling Cars (more or less older Continuous Welded Rail Cars) which were on the Scrap Line in the SBK Yard were no where to be found when Doug and Company visited the area yet again and didn't see them on NY Cross Harbor Property.
I found them! They weren't scrapped much to my surprise, the blue rail handlers have received a reprieve, and returned to TA property at CI Yard. Just to tell you how much of a reprieve, the blue cars are no longer blue, they're now yellow! While in training today, I heard the rumbling of a diesel locomotive, passing the training facility. As I passed the paint booth on my way out there was additional equipment inside with 491, which I hadn't seen earlier in the day. The rail handler cars were brought in for paint work. They look like new with the yellow paint. The only question I have is why the reprieve? NYCT was ready to dispose of them.
-Stef
Yes, Stef, you're right! A friend of mine in NYCT told me the same thing yesterday. He said that the cars were "rescued" and returned to service -- without an explanation.
BTW, they are NOT continuous rail cars, but rather rail-weilding cars (they have their own on-oboard power generators). My guess is that someone in NYCT made a 'boo-boo' or otherwise the powers-that-be saw that the cars still had potential in the MOW department.
Good News all around!
Thanks for the report, Stef!
Oh? I thought that these were considered to be CWR's. Perhaps not! One thing's for sure, it's not impossible to bring equipment back from the dead.
-Stef
Cool!
Railpace Hot News has the following item:
"AMTRAK ANNOUNCES QUIET CARS: Amtrak is adding "quiet cars" to some of its Northeast trains after protests by passengers that beeper and cellphone-using travelers were preventing them from taking naps. The national passenger rail service said a quiet car had been added on the 9 a.m. Metroliners out of Washington, D.C. and New York, for those wanting to get away from constant ringing and beeping. The quiet cars are provided for people hoping to catch up on their sleep but the railroad had no plans to add quiet cars during peak hours. (Steve Benkovitz - posted 2/02)"
Will other forms of noise be limited as well (no babies or young children, must whisper)? I've always thought commuter rail should do this (charge a little extra and disallow admittance after all window seats are filled on off-peak trains, all seats on peak trains).
Will other forms of noise be limited as well (no babies or young children, must whisper)? I've always thought commuter rail should do this
That would be the RIGHT way of doing it, but you know the irrational backlash against cell phones.
I just can't understand it.
Speaking of a back-lash against cell-phones........
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/saudi_cellphone010203.html
John will LOVE that story
Peace,
ANDEE
AMEN. Relief from the users of "microwave brain warmers"
Peace,
ANDEE
I disagree.
It's total hypocrisy that cellular phones are banned and not other types of noise.
And the whole waves cause cancer thing has been debunked, although, everybody who has died from cancer in the United States in the last century has been exposed to electromagnetic radiation (you know those wires in your walls that power those magic lights?).
>>>It's total hypocrisy that cellular phones are banned and not other types of noise. <<<
ALL types of extraneous noise should be banned. I shoud've made that clearer>
>>>And the whole waves cause cancer thing has been debunked<<
Not to my satisfaction.
>>>(you know those wires in your walls that power those magic lights?). <<<
But they aren't up against my head.
Peace,
ANDEE
But they aren't up against my head.
Many more wires produce more radiation than a cell phone antenna.
A home microwave, for instance. And if you can see a microwave antenna (it looks like a drum on a tower, usually) from where you are, you're being bombarded with many times the radiation of a cell phone.
The biggest hypocrisy of the ban-cell-phones types is that they don't admit they do everything they hate others doing.
-Hank
About two weeks ago I bought myself one of the number plates from car 7768 at the Transit Museum shop in Grand Central. I brought it home and started looking through all the R-26 pictures on the website, and that's when I noticed that the tail on the number 6 looked different in the pictures than it did on the plate. Mine looks sort of blocky, like the one in this picture, but the pictures of 7768 show a different kind of 6.
So here are my questions:
1 - Has 7768 been scrapped, or did they just change the plates?
2 - Why are the number fonts different?
3 - How long do these plates usually last?
They got NUMBER PLATES in Grand Central!??!
I was told we had to go to NYTM to get that!
Where in the Grand Central Store are they located?
NYTM is located near Rita Aid Store or ask someone who work in Grand Central know where is NYTM. Buddy i alway go there once a month & sometimes they have number plates. Last time i was there was last month & the numbers they have was 75xx, 77xx & few 49xx. BTW it cost only $5 each number plates
Peace Out
David Justiniano
>>>NYTM is located near Rita Aid Store
I'm sure Rita is happy about that! 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
The NYTM store at GCT is right by the west escalators. It is situatted between the Station Master's Office and the Discovery Channel store. The nearest street access is at 42nd Street and Vanderbilt Avenue. The nearest subway entrance is the one nearest the Grand Central Shuttle. The nearest track is number 36.
In answer to your questions:
1 - Most of these plates were changed during the graffiti craze of the '70s. Almost all of the plates that the museum has been/is selling are from Redbirds (R21 thru R36). I have seen a few R42 plates as well as some R44 plates. The R44 plates were from the 1991 overhaul when they also changed the numbering from 100-387 to 5000 numbers.
2 - Some of the plates were from cars made at different times, by different car companies (ACF, SLC, etc).
3 - The original plates were baked enamel over steel and were very durable. They could be affected by rust, but since they were taken out of service, look pretty good for their age. It's good that they were removed, since they can now be sold. I have about 25 in my collection. The replacements are a hodge-podge of stick-on numbers, and painted steel plates which have some different styles of numbers depending on when and how they were painted. The TA has functionality in mind, not looks.
My trip started on NJT Atlantic City to Philly train 4608, which left Lindenwold at 7:37, one minute late. Passed PATCO’s Woodcrest station at 7:40 and estimated the free parking lots to be ¾ full and the dollar lot ¼ full (Pork had posted his intention to park there around 9:30). After crossing the Delaware on the Delair bridge, we arrived at Frankford Junction as an HHP-8 led train headed eastbound at 8:00. We stopped prior to entering the Corridor. At 8:02 it was announced that we were waiting for “some” Amtrak trains to clear. One passed westbound at 8:03 and another eastbound at 8:04. We entered the corridor at 8:05 and arrived at 30th Street on time. Several Acela trainsets and several HHP-8’s were seen in the storage yard as our train approached the station.
I went out to the parking lot overlooking the yard and approach tracks north of the station to take pictures, and while out there the paper on which I was taking notes blew away down onto the tracks).
A highlight was seeing a short CSX business train (one Geep and two cars) on the former B&O track on the east bank of the Schuylkill River. It departed before I could get to a decent photo location.
I met up with Keystone Pete, who came in on train 181 at 9:30 and we planned our day. He said that a Philly based SubTalker had emailed him asking for a rendesvous suggestion if our itinerary was established, but alas it wasn’t. Both of us would have liked to meet him, as we both agreed that his posts are very informative and exhibit extensive knowledge of the Philly transit scene. I introduced Pete to the aforementioned parking lot, and he shot off several pictures until his camera batteries died. Fortunately, the camera shop across the aisle from the SEPTA ticket office had his batteries. We bought day passes and took the R6 to Norristown, then the P&W to 69th Street. After lunch at Mickey Deez in Upper Darby, we photographed the Media and Sharon Hill trolleys, then took the Market Street el/subway to 15th Street, the BSS to Walnut/Locust, and PATCO to Lindenwold (Pete’s original post said he wanted to ride PATCO, BSS and P&W). Returning from Lindenwold to 8th & Market, we then took the Ridge Ave/Broad Street Subway to Olney, where we got off at 3:30 on the chance that we might see the Philly SubTalker mentioned earlier. We walked the southbound platform from one end to the other and back, but didn’t find him (we don’t know what he looks like, but he could have recognized us [an aging foamer and a normal guy with a camera]). We continued on to Fern Rock and got a ride around the loop. A Regional Rail train was in the station as we went past. We rode to Pattison Ave, so Pete could ride the entire line. We exited and took some pix of the soon-to-be-late Veterans Stadium, then headed north again. Pete said he was ready to take the next train to Harrisburg, so I left him at Walnut-Locust and took PATCO back to Lindenwold. A good time was had by both.
Did you notice that some of the Amtrak high speed trains and locos are now coming 'wrapped'? I've seen a couple at 30th with blue plastic 'wrappers'. Don't know why.
When our P&W car went under the Trenton Cutoff, we saw a freight train with a NS Operation Lifesaver engine.
Our PATCO train to Lindenwold was a 2-car train of original Budd equipment: 213 and 214. The trip back to Philly was a 4-car train with 214 and 213 leading two Bombardiers.
They aren't Bombardier cars, they were built by Vickers Canada.
Thanks. I knew that.
This little gem has being the rounds lately, and is too good to pass up:
*********************
CHICAGO (AP) -- Two Amtrak engineers were arrested last week after an altercation in the cab of a Los Angeles-to-Chicago train, railroad officials said Friday.
No passengers were endangered, but the engineers ''compromised service and an investigation and a disciplinary procedure are under way,'' Amtrak said in a statement.
The men were arrested by police after stopping in Needles, Calif., on Jan. 24, officials said.
The train's engineer called Needles police before the train reached the town's station, asking police to meet the train and arrest his assistant engineer, The Washington Post reported Friday.
The men might have been involved in a fist fight that involved a dispute over smoking in the train's cab, the newspaper reported, citing railroad sources it did not identify.
Neither engineer was identified.
Sources told the Post that police officers did not want to arrest either man, but each insisted on a ''citizen arrest'' of the other, so both were taken to jail.
The train was delayed for an hour and 38 minutes until another engineer arrived.
*********************
This begs the obvious question - who was driving the train while they were beating each other up?
Is it me, or is Amtrak starting to get really sucky again?
That's exactly what Amtrak needs, doesn't it? At least one more, so as to have a matching set of black eyes.
Sigh...
What are the duties of an "assistant engineer"?
You mean, besides beating up the chief engineer?
and providing tobacco products
Forgot about that one!
I don't know who had "assistant engineers" first. It was a big idea brought up in the BLE paper..of course would take the UTU man out of the cab, the head brakeman or conductor . Montana Rail Link, my last employer, started business with this concept at the end of Oct. 1987.
Both men in the cab are normally engineers (although in the beginning there weren't enough so the assistant was usually an ex-BN brakeman or conductor.).The duties of an assistant engineer are, if both are engineers: to do all the jobs that the fireman and/or head brakeman would have done in the best. Checking on the units, restarting them, shutting down as necessary, sharing responsibilities for safe operation and rules compliance in addition [on MRL anyway]any work on the cars like re-hooking hoses, cutting out brakes, checking hotboxes,setting out cars if necessary, etc. Hand lining switches as necessary, copying written instructions via radio. Many more items; if both men are engineers and have a good relationship usually they split the running and the ground work., etc.
Smoking in the cab: Some RR's forbid it completely; policy on Montana Rail link was if any crew member objected it wasn't to be done. If it were then a rules violation could be reported rsulting in usually just a verbal warning with further action bringing discipline. I'll keep my opinions to myself for now; usually the simple way was to go to another cab if one wanted to smoke; a fight wasn't necessary.True both crew persons are supposed to be in the lead cab, but normally safety isn't compromised and other units can be checked on.
Back to the first part: I'm referring to MRL as a two-person on the train operation, hence one engineer does the "trainman" work when he isn't running, or all of it if he doesn't run.
So, it comes down to a jurisdictional thing between unions, whether you have an assistant engineer or a brakeman or fireman or conductor?
It was originally; when the BLE proposed the 2-engineer, nobody else on the train concept. The UTU went thru the roof about it, of course knowing what it meant. Not every railroad went for it.
Montana Rail Link has no UTU; even the switchmen, meaning in other words all operating employees, are BLE. I was familiar with the concept of course having been in NYCT-TWU, but then TWU represented almost all system employees. [BLE doesn't on MRL]
At one point you could have 4 unions on one train, depending on the property. Engineer: BLE[engineers only], Fireman:Bro.of Loco Firemen and enginemen..notice it didn't say engineers; Conductor: Order of Railway Conductors, Brakemen: Bro. of Rwy. Trainmen.IIRC all three of the latter and the Switchmen's Union of North America, became UTU in the late 60's or early 70's.
Well, since Amtrak is owned by the feds, and smoking is banned on fed property...
-Hank
Amtrak trains usually only have one person in the Cab. An assistant engineer would be someone who is trying to qualify on a particular route and needs to ride up front w/ the real engineer. As to the question of who was driving the train, most RR locos don't have a constant pressure deadman handle/pedal. If they are on a piece of track where human input isn't needed much engineers can get up and dance around (as stated in Hot Times) or engage in fistacuffs.
As to the question of who was driving the train, most RR locos don't have a constant pressure deadman handle/pedal.
Another myth explodes.
The D is using the Brighton express southbound, the B is using the Sea Beach / 4th ave express northbound.
when i was leaving the dekalb avenue station in brooklyn, i stopped to read a flashing display with changing messages which promoted escalator safety... i stopped to copy them down, so that i could post them here as a public service... there were about 10 different messages...unfortunately, they changed quicker than i could copy, so it took several cycles of the announcements to copy them all down... i had my bike with me, and i suppose i was blocking the entrance to the escalator... that didn't give people the right to push past me, nor was it my fault that several people tripped over my bike...
nevertheless here are the safety suggestions for escalator usage...
1. escalators are for passengers only
2. face forward... adults, hold handrail
3. children should hold grown-ups hand not hand rail
4. step on or off quickly... do not ride off
5. never run up np(???) or down on escalator
6. never sit on steps or handrails
7. attend your children... hold your child...fold your stroller
8. never push strollers on escalators while riding
9. never rest umbrellas on escalator steps
10. avoid the sides of the escalator
11. no large package or objects should be carried on escalators
have a great day
ride safe
after about 10 minutes i finally copied all the suggestions down... i got kind of dizzy from reading the message board, so i did not ride my bike up the escalator as i normally do... that was very fortunate as there was an escalator safety compliance officer standing at the top of the escalator ready to write a summons for anyone who disobeyed the 11 rules of safe escalator conduct...
Did he at least offer you a little oxygen after your ten trips on the escalator (you must have been a bit woozy)?
no actually, i was copying the instructions while i was standing on the platform right before the escalator started...
i did get woozy in macys where i was riding the wooden escalators between the 3rd and 9th floors for about 45 minutes...
by the way, do you think that there is any danger in picking up germs from the escalator handrails?... just to be safe, i stopped off at the men's room after each complete trip on the escalator... although, i am worried about the door handles leading into and out of the restrooms... i spoke to my psychiatrist and he recommended that i wear the same type of latex gloves that he puts on when he shakes my hand...
Restroom door handles, toilet seats etc. are "fomites," places where germs can be left. Mostly viruses which can cause colds, but also other bugs which give you diarrhea. Wash your hands after you use a bathroom, before you eat, and otherwise try not to worry about it...
Arrgh! Like a bad jingle that keeps repeating and repeating
in my head! Thanks a lot, Paul. Maybe you can do the Union
Square gap filler announcement next.
Hey Jeff, I though that was my job ?!?
Thank your lucky stars that they don't talk. Like the escalators at 34th/6th/IND, Penn and 5th AVE/IND.
Peace,
ANDEE
Trains run every 24 minutes (the magic single-track number)bet. QP and TS, according to the site. There was no advanced warning, so this is probably why they didn't close it altogether. They say "avoid the 7, stay on the F N R." They mention the F via 63rd, use the N at QP or R at Roos for TS, the F at Roos for 5th, N/R to 59 to 456 for GCT.
I think it's only in effect from 10:00 p.m. until 8:00 a.m. Friday and Saturday nights.
Was just sworn in today, and begin with the Feb. 26th class. A Newsday was laying around, and I saw this article on toy trains http://www.newsday.com/coverage/current/business/friday/nd5802.htm
During a break for lunch, I ran over to Manhattan Mall and ate at Arthur Treachers. I asked a security guard what was going on with the Food court and he said it was being moved down to the 3rd floor.
After finishing up last at 6pm, I went over to K-Mart, and saw that there are a couple of those full color LED signs on the 7th Av. corner of Macy's (advertises perfume and jewelery)
Congratulations and welcome to the world of the tenuous indication lamp and the missing board of finger pointing! :)
>>>and saw that there are a couple of those full color LED signs on the 7th Av. corner of Macy's <<<
Those full color, 2 story, Spectracolor boards are state of the art and cost Million$. BTW thanks for noticing, I am one of the people that program them.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh yeah? I'm fascinated by them, and how the colors are mixed. I just stand and glance at them in Times Sq., and now it is finally spreading beyond there. (Still wonder why MSG hasn't upgraded from those pale incandescent boards yet.) Well, I guess it's too late for the R-143, but I wish you could convince the TA to start getting full color LED signs.
I sent you an e-mail per your posting, be sure to read it and reponsd to it!! Thanks and Peace, Thomas :>
So where are the cops at the 34th street IND/BMT Path station? I must have seen about 10 homeless people sleeping there, right around PATH and Manhattan mall.
I've seen them hauling off homeless people routinely; the homeless come back. Once, I even saw an officer bantering with one of the "regulars" before taking him away.
Maybe they should make the Manhattan Mall a homeless hotel!!! :-0
Unfortunately that is right! One time I ahd the same homeless guy removed THREE times in two hours. They finally forced him to go to a shelter but he came back the next night. They come back as soon as the cops leave! Many cops finally stop coming unless the person is an EDP (Emotionally Disturbed Person), Intoxicated, anti-social behavior(undressing, defecating, etc.). Even then, they'll be back.
One time I ahd the same homeless guy removed THREE times in two hours. They finally forced him to go to a shelter but he came back the next night. They come back as soon as the cops leave! Many cops finally stop coming unless the person is an EDP (Emotionally Disturbed Person), Intoxicated, anti-social behavior(undressing, defecating, etc.). Even then, they'll be back.
About a year and a half ago, I saw a skell do numero uno near the PATH entrance, with many people around AND right in front of a PA police officer. The cop spun him around and body-slammed him into a wall, so people couldn't see what was happening, but did not arrest him - just hauled him up the stairs and let him go. The skell, by the way, was one of the skell-iest I've ever seen. His clothes were literal rags and he was missing one eye - he had a hollow eye socket.
I remember a guy used to beg in front of Macy's with two hollow eye sockets, but that was 25 years ago. Doubtful its the same guy with one eye grown back...
The little park above 32nd Street has been a longtime home for the homeless, though the construction project begun last year disrupted that arrangement. They many have just decided to take their business below ground, and decided to stay there when winter rolled around.
>>>I remember a guy used to beg in front of Macy's with two hollow eye sockets, but that was 25 years ago. <<<
That man died about 8 years ago. He was never threatning, always polite and developed freindships with quite a few of the people in the area.
Peace,
ANDEE
I remember him! From when I worked messenger service back in 1972.
Does anyone remember "Aqualung", the guy who used to live in Madison Square Park, and talk to himself - he looked just like the guy on the record album. This was around 1972 through 1974, I would guess he's long dead by now; he was old even then. AND also - Old Mary, the bane of the "F" train - If she was camped out at 179th Street, you could smell her at Parsons Bvld. One of her favourite spots was dead center in Queens Plaza, city bound platform, she would set up house on the benches and NOBODY would go near her. She liked the R44's. You would also see her in an A/C'd Slant if there was one. Always the "F", never the "E", never on a R-6 or R-7 either. I felt very sorry for her, she needed medical attention but never got any.
wayne
[About a year and a half ago, I saw a skell do numero uno near the PATH entrance, with many people around AND right in front of a PA police officer.]
What's with the use of this term 'skell'. Seems like you watch waaaay too much 'NYPD Blue'.
BMTman
The term was around long before NYPD blue and is a fairly accurate euphenism for "bum", etc.
We saw an "L Skell" heading out to Canarsee, who made his bed in Car #4448, absolutely filthy, and putrid to the max. You'd think they'd bother to take a simple bath - That's part of the problem - there aren't enough places available to do just that! And on another occasion another "L Skell" was enjoying his chicken lunch in Car #4411 - he was dropping his bones all over the place and making a mess, THEN he did something ELSE - he lit up a smoke! They had his mangy butt hauled off at Bway Jct and we tossed his trash out the train door after him.
wayne
Maybe he is keeping an eye out for a good place to wiz?
avid
Seems like the homeless problems in the city just haven't impoved much. They really need to clean the place up, these homeless cause crime, can spread disease, and create a bad image for the city.
They should lock them up for their own good if they refuse to go to a shelter. Yeah, what ever happened to that policy?
>>>They should lock them up ...<<<
It is not a crime to be homeless. Although, many think it is.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well adequate shelters for homeless would also help. I don't favor locking up homeless people either, but they really should be off thes treets.
There ARE shelters for them. They don't like them, they go back to the streets.
Even a NYC railfan, ERA official, etc became homeless about a year ago. Retired, shared an apartment , roommates moved out and he just couldn't afford the rent by himself.
Police turned him over to welfare, he was hospitalized then placed in a nursing home ironically right across the hall from my dying mother (last March). Nurse mentioned my name and Arnold Joseph to him, he didn't remember me but did know Arnold. So I called Arnold and told him "Al" had been found. I don't know what became of him later.
There are a lot of people I don't feel sorry for but then have to remember it could be me some day..I hope not.
Why not redistribute your wealth?
-Hank
Well wealth can be re-distributed so adequate shelters can be built to house the homeless.
Well wealth can be re-distributed so adequate shelters can be built to house the homeless
Just providing housing won't work. As I've said before, the only effective way to rid the subways and streets of skells (or the homeless, if you want to be p.c.) is to (1) re-criminalize vagrancy (thereby allowing the police to arrest someone having "no visible means of support," as in the olden days) and (2) make it much easier for the government to commit people involuntarily to mental hospitals. And I also believe that most people, however much they recoil at the sight and odor of skells, would be very reluctant to give the government those powers, as the potential for abuse is enormous.
You might say that occasional skells are an unavoidable price for living in a free society.
That's a nice closing statement.
The vagrancy laws are horribly flawed since you can have a frenchman person who hasn't bathed in a few days and wearing dirty clothes mistaken for a skell, even though he has a home and just was incredibly busy or away from that home for awhile.
Involuntarily committing people to mental hospitals is a horrible infringement upon freedom. People should not be convicted of anything unless they have committed a crime. Then they can be sent to an asylum.
I don't appreciate aggressive panhandlers, but I do have sympathy. I have heard, but I don't know if it's true, since it was well before my time, that Nixon abolished federally funded mental hospitals and sent them all into the streets. I do know that Europe, with its abundant social safety net, has almost no homeless people. I think it is a shameful chapter on our society. Our shelters require that men be separated from women and children, which in many cases seems to make sense, but it also especially hurts families who "have legitimate morals," but are down on their luck. Another condition on the homeless to enter shelters is that they give up alcohol or drugs, however, they are offered no treatment. This seems like a legitimate condition, but if they slip up; or more often, if they refuse to go along with the difficult conditions; they prefer to chance it on the street. What are we to do? If I were my age, homeless, and addicted to heroin, I would probably choose a warm subway station to a fascist boarding-home. But then the policy makers know nothing of the reality of these people (not that I claim to either). But I am constantly reminded of my Romanian friend's aunt who visited Philly (and the US) for the first time this summer. She spoke no English, but he, his mother/her sister, and I could get by with her in Romanian/Italian/French. When she first saw a homeless person on the street, despite coming from a very poor country in the former Soviet Block, this quiet doctor (who had lived as well in Bahrain and Bangladesh) vomited in disgust, and demanded to return to Europe immediately. How were we to argue? Yes, we are an insensitive, heartless, capitalist country. But we're (monetarily) richer, right, so we must be right. Sorry for the tirade, but on transit issues, she was impressed by the MFL, but was dissaponted that it only served Afican-Americans on one end and poor white Catholics on the other, without extending to the "power-people" suburbs.
God, were they bothering you? No? Then what is your problem?
Peace,
ANDEE
They stink
Not all the time.
Peace,
ANDEE
It gives the area a bad image.
Homeless people are a fact of life. I can tell you one thing, having worked in that area for 15 years, the problem is much better now than it used to be. But a least you see them. Most people don't.
Peace,
ANDEE
Got out of the F and walked upstairs to the 7 around 4pm. The platform was dangerously crowded, you couldn't get through and there was a large group of at least 50 Korean kids making noise and blocking access to the more empty front of the platform. I had to fight my way through. After a 10 minute wait a train finally came.
Sure would be nice if they had a Queens bypass subway right to the city line!
Next time go back to the booth and tell the station agent to call the police because there is a crowd condition on the platform with a group of (insert description of group) blocking the platform. The police will respond to a "crowd condition" and keep /restore order.I have almost had to call the riot police several times but I kept the station orderly by taking pre-emptive initiative.
One time I was doing a gate job at Hoyt IRT Brooklyn and no trains were running. I asked the s/a to opent he block tickets and to give me a vook of tickets and I'd hand them out. A police officer happened to come by and asked what was happening. They agreeded to help. I gave them the tickets and got more. I was then asked to close the wheels and I asked the booth to close the wheels and give me the barricade tape. I then took an audio hailer (megaphone) and cleared the other side. Supervisor shows up and comments on how orsderly my station was. Every other Brooklyn IRT station was bedlam and chaos with police trying to keep order. I got a compliment from the Line Superintendent and supervisor changed my hours to pay me for the emergency. All in a day's work! I have done such actions quite a few times, eaxch time getting thanks from the s/a in the booth and supervision.
It is easier to keep order by not letting it get out of hand to begin with.
I regret you had problems. Next time go back to the booth and ask for police.
The thing is at the 74th-Broadway station you have to venture downstairs to the booth, and don't forget if these kids find out who called the cops on them, you may be in for a beating.
Many people in the know, know that Flushing is a bad area and the kids (who got off at Main street) are some of the worst in Queens.
The 74th-Broadway station is always a mess between 3 and 4pm when the "Flushing menaces" get loose. I should just avoid that station at that time.
And Im sure they avoid YOU. What a loser.
"Many people in the know, know that Flushing is a bad area and the kids (who got off at Main street) are some of the worst in Queens."
All of them are bad!? I sure thats not true. The area is bad after school like so many other areas where school kids are. If its so bad STOP GOING THERE. Take the LIRR. Stop complaining already. Were sick of it.
Many people in the know, know that Flushing is a bad area and the kids (who got off at Main street) are some of the worst in Queens.
BULLSHIT. Any place where you go is a bad area, not because you cause it, but because every place that's not a utopia to you is bad.
Hmmm, every place? There are good areas in the city. Chinatown, Union Square, Upper East Side, and lower Manhattan, as well as the southern half of Staten Island.
You just seem to only be listening to the negative things I say.
True, I don't care for Queens, Brooklyn, or the Bronx. In general I just don't feel as safe in those areas. And I think statistics may prove that.
>>>You just seem to only be listening to the negative things I say. <<<
You ONLY say negative things
Peace,
ANDEE
> One time I was doing a gate job at Hoyt IRT Brooklyn and no trains were running.
Why were no trains running?
- Lyle Goldman
water main break in lower Manhattan ahd the 2 and 3 out from CHambersd to Atlantic.
>>>Sure would be nice if they had a Queens bypass subway right to the city line! <<<
UUUUM, the Queens/Nassau border IS the city line.
Peace,
ANDEE
So? Why does that contradict anything he's saying?
Because of his obvious Queens bias.
Peace,
ANDEE
Because of his obvious Queens bias.
He has an obvious bias against Nassau and Manhattan too. Against Sun III too.
>>>He has an obvious bias against Nassau and Manhattan too. Against Sun III too. <<<
He seems to have a bias against everything.
He reminds me of the comic book character Sad Sack with his grey cloud following him everywhere.
What's the Sun III reference about?
Peace,
ANDEE
You know the method in science fiction of referring to planets in foreign star systems by naming the star followed by the order of the planet from the star?
Earth is the third planet from the star known as Sun (no other name for it that isn't so terracentric: Earth-centric).
I guess I didn't want to say Earth for some reason.
THX
>>>Got out of the F and walked upstairs to the 7 around 4pm. The platform was dangerously crowded, ...<<<
4pm...we call that rush hour...it's what people who work for a living put up with daily.
Peace,
ANDEE
I've used that station numerous times at rush hour, I never saw it quite that bad.
7 line wasn't the only victim who faces problem in the city of NY. The Lexington Line is the worst when it come to overcrowded trains and platforms on the 4,5,6 line during rush hour. Speaking of daily commuting crisis!
7 line wasn't the only victim who faces problem in the city of NY. The Lexington Line is the worst when it come to overcrowded trains and platforms on the 4,5,6 line during rush hour.
Actually, if you go by the published load factors, the Queens Blvd "E" and "F" trains are the most overcrowded.
I gotta agree with you, nothing beats the crowding on the Lex. The trains are really packed, and the platforms (esp at 42nd and 14th) are dangerously overcrowded.
So what is it gonna take to get the 2nd ave subway?
Sure would be nice if they had a Queens bypass subway right to the city line!
I think it's called the LIRR.
Now if only LIRR would take Metrocards.....
I have an idea. I think LIRR should have a $2 fare when riding within city limits, $3 at peak hours.
The E and F lines are overcrowded, so let them have people board at Jamaica,Forest Hills,Kew Gardens, or Woodside and pay a $2 fare, which could ease congestion on the Queens Blvd line for example.
Especially at Woodside, seems like that station is under-utilized.
On the Port Washington line, $2 fares could ease congestion on the 7 line. And I think LIRR would gain money in the end from increased city ridership. I know LIRR is a suburban railroad but they should have a better deal for people in Queens.
However what would you do with the already crowded cars as they enter the city?
Well hopefully the GCT connection would ease that, but it's still years away.
And then you gotta have a 2nd ave subway built by then.
On the property tonight heading up to the East as of 2100 hours, with locomotives OL903 and OL909, RD329 (ex R-14), and Loco 76 taking up the end. 6381-85 will be here tomorrow night. Yes, they are being delivered to my house....
On a side note, 6411-15 are out of service as of this evening. They should be at 207th Street getting their trucks examined and worked on if necessary.
-Stef
What is the problem with the trucks?
How is training. e-mail me off-site.
It seems that the trip cock assemblies on the trucks are defective, according to one of our SubTalk Posters. They're defective. Shop personnel are looking at the trucks for defects.
I'll send you some mail.
-Stef
Hey Stef i saw #6411-#6420 this morning heading north while i was heading to work going south. Also what wrong with R142 truck??
Peace Out
David Justiniano
As I was explaining to Subway Buff, the trucks are being examined by shop personnel for defects. It seems that the trip cock assemblies are not working, rather they are breaking off, or so one of our SubTalk Posters explains to me. They need to take a good look at the truck and make any repairs or modifications necessary, and get them back on the road.
-Stef
Thanks, Stef. I forgot to give you a "head's up" about the delivery. Canarsie Shawn tipped me off this morning about CP's drop off at Fresh Pond early Friday a.m.
BTW, my NY&A source was correct about the delivery schedule of the R-142's (Fridays look like the day of choice).
BMTman
I shoud be seeing 6381-6385 heading to Linden this afternoon, if they following the same schedule. It's pretty interesting seeing the NY&A push them on their own wheels after seeing CP bring them down on the flatcars.
About two weeks ago I caught half of Friday's delivery heading over there. The first thing I saw was an NY&A switcher pulling the empty flatcars away from the yard. Then about a half hour later, here came the R142's.
Shawn.
Flatcars leaving now!
Shawn
Thanks for the tip, Shawn!
I'm heading over to Livonia & Junius around 2:00...report what I see later today.
BMTman
See my other post somewhere at the top of the index. I posted right after the R142's left Fresh Pond Yard.
Shawn.
its probably just the t.p. that is defective and then could've more problems towards the truck. thats what i feel.
Tonight/Sat. morning the History Channel program, "This Week in History", will cover the opening of Grand Central Terminal, one of four stories on the program.
1:00 am ET - Sat., Feb 3rd (Friday night/Saturday morning),
This Week in History: Noriega; Grand Central Terminal Opens; Yalta Conference
This week's stories include:
February 5, 1988, the U.S. indicts Panamanian strongman and dictator Manuel Noriega on drug trafficking and racketeering charges;
New York City's Grand Central Terminal opens on February 3, 1913;
February 4-11, 1945, the three chief Allied leaders--Churchill, Stalin, and an ailing Roosevelt--meet at Yalta to define a new world order;
February 2, 1892, a patent for a "bottle sealing device" is awarded to William Painter
I want to know which is better to use MVM or Station Booth to get a metrocard? Give us your option about MVM or Station Booth.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
c) Tokens!!
Not surprising. Maybe you should get a Super 8 camera to replace your camcorder too!
Peace,
ANDEE
MVMs all the way. I haven't dealt with a booth for over a year!
Peace,
ANDEE
I go to the newsstand next to the MVM and get a Metrocard in about 10 seconds, instead of waiting on line at either the Token booth or the MVM. At Penn Station recently, I saw a line of about 8 people waiting to use that Metrocard dispensing machine with the ridiculous video screen. I went to Hudson News two feet away and bought 8 one-day passes for the 4 of us for 2 days in about the time it has taken me to write about it. And they were wrapped up in plastic wrap so we couldn't accidentally use tomorrow's passes prematurely.
I favor the human (Booth):
1- a human can give you a $6 card with a $20 bill--the machine can not
2- a human can (if caught within six minutes) void a card and issue a new card (unless the card was an unlimited.)
3- a human does not malfunction.
4- a human can give you two or three cards with a single payment: IE you give me two $20 bills and want a $17, $15 and $8 cards- we can do that!
5- a human takes transit checks while the machine does not
6- if we make a mistake we can count the booth funds and if we are wrong (yes- we do make mistakes), we can correct the problem on the spot (EX: You wanted a $17 card and we thought you wanted a $15 card.)
7- You ae not sure what the best option is (Regular on unlimited). We can explain the good and bad of each kind asnd help you decide.
Long live Station Agents!
I favor the human (Booth):
It's your job, you're biased.
a human can give you a $6 card with a $20 bill--the machine can not
No big deal. Use a credit/debit card or buy a more expensive card. Everybody should have a debit card, if not, they're dirt poor (and thus have no money for the subway) or just plain idiots who either use check cashing for their welfare checks or stubbornly hang on to those bank books.
a human can (if caught within six minutes) void a card and issue a new card (unless the card was an unlimited.)
X-plain.
a human does not malfunction.
I guess you never heard of diseases, nervous breakdowns, injuries etc, or are somehow immune to them.
a human can give you two or three cards with a single payment: IE you give me two $20 bills and want a $17, $15 and $8 cards- we can do that!
You can buy as many cards with a machine too, use credit/debit cards, get a receipt and buy a FUN PASS
a human takes transit checks while the machine does not
Irrelevant since TransitCheks come in card form now
if we make a mistake we can count the booth funds and if we are wrong (yes- we do make mistakes), we can correct the problem on the spot (EX: You wanted a $17 card and we thought you wanted a $15 card.)
If a station agent makes a mistake, it is the STATION AGENT'S FAULT! If the machine makes a mistake, it is the user's fault. Machines malfunction less often than machines.
You ae not sure what the best option is (Regular on unlimited). We can explain the good and bad of each kind asnd help you decide.
And hold up the line in the process. There are brochures, the internet, various other literature and even a telephone hotline to help people decide. I would sure be pissed off if a station agent was yakking with an idiot customer instead of helping people who use the booth for its primary purpose.
Long live Station Agents!
I hope for the nice people to have long, healthy lives, but not the position.
>>>2- a human can (if caught within six minutes) void a card and issue a new card (unless the card was an unlimited.) <<<
You have stated yourself, in past posts, that you cannot help aperson once they leave the booth.
You are disqualified from answering this question as you are a S/A and therefore biased.
Peace,
ANDEE
I want to know which is better to use MVM or Station Booth to get a metrocard? Give us your option about MVM or Station Booth.
Well, let's see:
An MVM lets you buy a fun pass, the booth does not.
In an MVM, you can use a credit/debit card to buy Metrocards. No more trip to the ATM before getting your card.
An MVM lets you get a receipt, an agent does not.
An MVM is fast and easy to use, there are many more of them in a station than staffed windows and such you will wait in line less.
The self serve quality appeals to me. It's not like gasoline where you have to leave you car for self-serve, you're out there passing money and getting cards anyway.
Those dollar coins are great. Dollar bills should be eliminated, and $2 bills implemented (eventually $2 coins should replace them, with a $15 MVM change limit using $2 coins).
Maintaining machines costs less than staffing booths, that money is better spent on renovating stations, posting more cops in seedier stations, buying new cars and improving service.
It pains me to agree with you :-) but...
I use the MVMs too, mainly because I only come to the City on occasion and consequently usually need a FunPass. The machine is a pain in the finger - I've lost track of how many times I have to poke that stupid screen to get a FunPass, the decision tree is too long - but it serves the purpose. But I invariably end up at the booth too since I want to get a current map.
And I too am a big fan of the dollar coins. Given the popularity of the $2 bill I'd favor simply bypassing that stage and going directly to a coin. Indeed, I've heard that our neighbors to the north are introducing a $5 coin this year... can one of our Canadian posters confirm (or refute) that?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And I too am a big fan of the dollar coins. Given the popularity of the $2 bill I'd favor simply bypassing that stage and going directly to a coin. Indeed, I've heard that our neighbors to the north are introducing a $5 coin this year... can one of our Canadian posters confirm (or refute) that?
Last I heard was the idea got shot down sometime last year. I love (and dearly miss) the Loonie and the Twonie (one and two dollar Canadian coins). Only way coins will ever work down here is if the banknotes are withdrawn from service. Never happen, IMHO...too manmy folks love Ol' George!
For a $5 coin to work, you would probably have to do away with at least the penny if not also the nickel. Too many coin denominations is a real problem. Right now there's the .01,.05,.10, .25, .50, $1 and $2.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Thanks, Peter... interestingly enough, in all my travels to Canada, I've never seen a 50¢ piece - I just assumed there wasn't one. Guess it circulates about as often as our do.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maintaining machines costs less than staffing booths, that money is better spent on renovating stations, posting more cops in seedier stations, buying new cars and improving service.
Even if it weren't for the several other advantages you cited, this one alone is sufficient to justify installation of MVMs.
I almost always use the MVMs.
MVM. No lines, no interaction w/ people necessary, alot faster.
A mix of both. Not every situation requires a definite one or the other. Some high volume locations could require both. Some extremely isolated locations may require both.
Most of all a THANK YOU would be nice.
I understand civil service positions mean impersonal ( not favoring any one or group over or below another) but it doesn't mean RUDE.
The NYCTA has become a Thankless work place. How sad.
avid
My question is now after it seems lke the NEGLECT of the angels flight & what happened etc..
I have one question to ask....how neglected are the rest of the rolling stock in los angeles is & is riding the rails of los angeles done at ones own risk??..........hmmm..........!!!
Does anybody know if R68/68A ever ran on the Fulton St.Line, Rockaway Line & 8th Ave Line on the A,C,E, lines? Had it also made it north of 168 St?
I know they ran to 207th in 1989 when the was extended there due to an asbestos flood on 8th Av. (I had just gotten off a Greyhound from California, getting out of the Air Force, to find the system in such disarray).
In the snow emergency plan, R-68 sets are to be brought out on the Fulton line to be pulled in passenger service by diesel power. Otherwise, I don't know if they ever ran out there, even out of service.
R68/68A equipment never ran on the A/C/E, but it has run on the 8th Ave and Fulton St lines due to reroutes. And yes the R68/68A equipment has made it to 207 Street. B service would be extended to 207 St (when the B's went to 168) in the event of a major A line service disruption. Also the 68's would have to go past Dyckman St in order to make it into 207 St Yard.
about a year ago, there was a thread here about an emd experimental diesel electric train, that had a real strange looking front engine, and had either passenger cars with the styling of an intercity bus... some of my description may be screwed up, but i think it ran on several different railroads... the pennsy included.....
It was on the Pennsy, NYC, UP, and Rock Island...
Pennsy Aerotrain brochure
Eastbound at Paoli, 1956
Another color shot
from the side
Rock Island
NYC
As the UP City of Las Vegas
PRR color
PRR front view B&W
PRR rear view B&W
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And all these years, I had thought that FORD made the Edsel. Sure did look like an Edsel ... there's a shot of it moving on one of those "Trains unlimited - the locomotive" shows that runs now on the "History channel" ... the show airs somewhere around 5am on Sunday night. Since that one ran last week, it'll be a few weeks before it shows up again, but it is an amusing looking thing.
Given how short its life on the railroad was, musta been a humongous turd. Sorta like the blasphemy now about the 142's. :)
I always thought it looked like a Cadillac with a glandualr conditon.
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh. Well from what I've read here and checked out on my own, they truly seem to be Edsels on wheels. But an absolutely silly design, at least in retrospect. The "observation car" was even weirder looking than the loco ... looking like the butt of a Pontiac station wagon. I finally know where Freddie Silverman got the idea for "Soopertrain."
>>>I finally know where Freddie Silverman got the idea for "Soopertrain." <<<
Believe it or not I actually have a tape of that HORRIBLE movie. Repackaged as "EXPRESS TO TERROR" but it is indeed "STUPIDTRAIN"
Peace,
ANDEE
That "Love Boat on steel wheels" knockoff was an NBC *series* ... I forget if they made 8 or 16 of them but they were HORRIBLE ... and the Lionel model they used for the train shots was as poorly done as the rest of the shows. But it was the epitome of NBC's popularity for a brief while under Freddy Silverman's control.
One of the Aerotrain's is on display at the Museum of Transport in St. Louis, MO.
"One of the Aerotrain's is on display at the Museum of Transport in St. Louis, MO."
What became of the other set? Preserved or scrapped ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Right. I remember that TV Guide did a special photo-feature on the "Supertrain" model and it was something close to G scale, but the miniature towns, cars and other passing railroads were O gauge. It ran on a unrealistic "super-wide ROW" and they took serious liberty with the scale ratios, obviously.
The entire show was probably created by Silverman & Co. on a drinking binge.
BMTman
Heh. Let's hope it was something legal they were smoking ... like beer as Wolfman Jack used to say, "smoke BEER" ... but yeah, "S00pertrain" is something TV Land ought to bring back ONCE and then do a half hour special as they feed the film into an incinerator. :)
Well, all this talk of Supertrain made me drag out my copy and watch ir yesterday. GOD IS IT AWFUL, after it was over I took it out of the VCR and threw it in the trash.
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh. Warned yew ... "Love Boat on steel wheels" and THAT'S being kind. :)
VERY kind
Peace,
ANDEE
Even worse than the show was the theme song.
Click here to play the lovely theme song in RealAudio
Obviously Fred Silverman got locked in an Aerotrain laid up in the yard somewhere overnight and broke into the liquor cabinet. Maybe that would explain it. Still no excuse tho'.
Fortunately for the American TV audience, it was mercifully cancelled.
Fortunately for all of us, TV Land has ignored it.
We can only hope that some wise soul trashed the tapes and masters, thus preserving the "sanity" that is American television.
Heh. Agreed ... except for those shows where people are eating rats and bugs ... one really has to wonder about the folks on such shows when they could go over to the other network and only have to phone a friend for the same amount of prize winnin's ...
And yes, Regis was on at least one episode of that too. Woo-woo! :)
[barum-pum]
thanks chris... do you remember if the styling of the coaches was described as bus-like in appearance?
i found some information on the bowser train website.. they sell some models, but at the end of the page they have some shots of the train provided by one of the gm designers of the cars...
bowser model aero train page
i just spoke with bmtman and doug said that mth has also done an aero train model...
again... thanks for posting the pictures....
doug was right... mth has an aerotrain in their new catalog, and they mention that gm used intercity bus carbodies...
mth aero train
some memories,
a paraphrase of a Rock Island exec over lunch, --so we put it on the Peoria Rocket and the good people drove 20 miles away to ride the Santa Fe. Now we use the equipment in commute service. The problems had incleded couplers "bouncing far ebough to disengage--the suspension system was not good enough.
Indeed the cars resembled the concurrent GM truck and Coach division "hounds" and similar body work for transiy buses. look at pix of "fishbowls"
None of the "lightweights" (unintended? foublr entendre) of the 50's had a decent track record. I believe there is a book devoted to this history, buy no recollection of author.
As to models--indeed the Bowser is done from the Varney models of the era. Mantua/Tyco did a Talgo at the same time.
It was an era of experumentation--Budd fielded the "rubular train" PRR bought the unique demo set. These cars had normal height entry then down slopes to a lowered floor one assumes for better tracking--achieved by an early example of moving the HEP equipment to a separate car . PRR did a display at Union Staion DC to introduce the train, which was dubbed the Keystone.
These cars had normal height entry then down slopes to a lowered floor one assumes for better tracking--achieved by an early example of moving the HEP equipment to a separate car . PRR did a display at Union Staion DC to introduce the train, which was dubbed the Keystone.
I rode the Keystone in the summer of 1961 from North Philly to Newark for my pre-induction physical. From the recruiting office in Camden, I was given a DRPA token, a PTC token, a PRR ticket, and a bus voucher, which I used to ride the bridge train from Camden City Hall to 8th & Market in Philly, the Ridge Ave subway to Lehigh (I don't remember whether I had to transfer at Girard), PRR to Newark Penn Station, and a bus to the induction center. When I boarded the train I was surprised to descend to the seats from the end-of-car entrance. When I settled into my right side window seat, I was quite startled to look out the window and realize that I was looking up skirts and dresses!
I remember the Keystone, it was unusual to say the least. That low level was a real kicker, and in the middle 60's the views of women were very interesting to a young man. To the railfan, the Keystone was, by that time usually at the end of a B-60-B baggage car, a couple of P-70's and the low level Budd cars. Once in a while, WT or Sunnyside would reverse the consist, putting the low-level stuff right behind the G. Talk about a strange sight. Here's this monster of a locomotive (remember, the GG-1 could handle prodigous loads. We used to watch the Pennsy take the sleepers and coaches of two southern trains (that usually arrived headed by 2 E units), add 10 or 12 PRR cars and 1 G would haul the whole train, 19 or 20 cars, at 85 MPH to New York. What a show!!) coupled to these half-height coaches (so low that on the high-level platforms you could actually look at the TOP of the letterboard), followed by coaches that almost towered over them.
A very strange train, indeed.
The coaches were derived, both stylistically and structurally, from the GM buses of the day. To say that they were less than successful is an understatement.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The cars *were* bus bodies, i believe. it was an attempt by GM to make a "lightweight" design, but of course, with truck technology stuck in the 1800's, it wasn't going to work at all.
Guess what guys?
I got on both R142/A's today! Both 2 and 6 R142/a's were running properly. It Is True.....Kawasaki R142A are the only cars that make the whirring noise. Bombardier cars are silent and smooth.
i rode 6301-10 Bom R-142 and half of the set had lights periodically turning off and on. it was on set 6310-6305. however it was hauling buttocks. btw did you hear the noise when the r-142 on the 2 was leaving the station? it's so sweet! you hear it best when the hvac isn't so loud.
I also rode the 6301-6310 set yesterday. I too noticed the lights going on and off. Each car did it independently.
Shawn
I also rode the 6301-6310 set yesterday. I too noticed the lights going on and off. Each car did it independently.
Shawn.
i know it is awkward. could it be an electrical short?
Could it be a third rail gap and no "run-through" powering? In the old days, when a car went through a third rail gap, it'd blink out until a shoe contacted the next segment and it behaved just as described. Over the years, folks may have just gotten used to Motor-generator sets keeping the lights on during gaps.
i assume so, but it kept on leaving the rail and not generating desired power. the new orders that will come to the 7 line will be customed for that line.
Maybe for the SMS, they'll install those whizzer blow rings into the brake pipes on the Bombardiers as well. After all, standardization is a "good thing."
but lets be honest, i'd rather see the r142a's on the 7 line instead of the 6. i mean both lines are heavily traveled, but shouldn't the 7 recieve a bit of the pot 'o gold that the 6'a are recieving? nothing against the r62a's though
The 7's pot-o-gold is that Corona Yard only has to deal with one kind of subway car. That's a nice operating advantage.
Personally, I'd be happy to see an upgrade to a new car (either R-62 or R-142). But it should be one type only, so that Corona Yard can keep the fleet in tip-top shape with a minimum of hassle.
dont take me wrong, i love the redbirds, i grew up with 'em. but i would like to see a change in the fleet without completely obliterating the redbirds EX: 50% redbirds, 50% r62/142a's. it has been and is still bieng done on the 2 and 6 lines
Do you not get it? They're not sending them there because it's unproven equipment. The same thing that happened to the R44 truck cracking fiasco can happen to the R142/R142As. To be safe, they're sending the R62A there as they are very reliable.
Nooo...they are not sending them there because Corona cannot handle the A/C units. They don't have the cranes. 180th St yard has been upgraded to SPECIFICALLY handle the R-142 series.
Peace,
ANDEE
they are not sending them there because the yard is outdated and because the R-142's will not pick up electricity for the electric shoes keeps leaving the rail.
Actually, while I really do love the R-142s, I appreciate the nostolgic value of the redbirds. While the time of all redbirds, even the few that remain on the #7 or somewhere else thru Jan 2003 are limited, remember that the #7 is an elevated line....it even goes over some expressways. Frankly, I find the redbirds to be more nostolgic on an elevated line then stainless steel. -Nick
today i was driving my brother's Old's Intrigue to the junk yard behind shea stadium to change the front end windsheild because of a 13" crack in it starting from the lower right corner. i accidently bumped into a jackass in front of me looking for the adress. i was at fault of course but the guy was so un professional that i just wanted to land every curse word in the book including in spanish because the guy urcked my nerves. i tried to say sorry but he was slamming me. i just shut my mouth put the car in reverse and went to the other side of the street. i could had it out with him. i wish i did.
now driving to school double parked to go inside the school and have my mother take over, some miserable putrid man comes over to me while my door is open taking my books out yells slurs at me and then honks his horn then i let somes slurs at him and gave him the middle finger. one more incident today then i would have been behind jail.
i'm gonna have to give driving a could two weeks or more off because i'm gonna get in trouble with these ignorant people.
That is also a pretty bad area, that whole Willets Point yard area looks like Tijuana. It's so bad it makes Flushing look like paradise.
I wouldn't dare venture there.
That is also a pretty bad area, that whole Willets Point yard area looks like Tijuana.
And I'm sure you've been to Tijuana many times and have a lot of experience with it.
And that yard is NOWHERE NEAR Willet's Point.
Well I just figured it's Willets point because it is near the Willets Point subway station. So what neighborhood is the junk yard in?
It's the Willets Point BOULEVARD Station. It's Flushing Meadows.
OK, my mistake.
move out here to southern california & experence the REAL DEAL...........PE & LARy rail system gone driving / bus only & ..
Hell yes driving does suck!!
oh hell no i wouldn't go out there. with the road rage out there i would end killing someone or be killed.
well then stay away from DETROIT. Lost Angeles cali. etc..... is not the only place where Road Rage runs amuck!!
this evil stuff is nationwide ( like the last time i drove around Atlanta!) ...
oohh! i forgot to mention atlanta! they are serious! i will never drive around there again! if i go there again i will try to use MARTA for the first time or have my cousin drive me around.
Even right here in Sea Cliff. I cross the street and get yelled by a driver. And this was a village official!!!
It's bad enough we got 5 inches of snow on the ground!
At least you never have to see snow. We are getting more of it tomorrow. And it sure is a pain in the *%*%$*#@^ ass when people don't shovel their snow (if anyone out there hasn't shoveled your sidewalk, look out I'm comin'!)
You got better radio stations in southern California and it's more scenic. But I could never move there. From what I hear the mass transit there is pretty sporadic and unreliable. From a railfan's perspective, SoCal must be pretty boring.
From a railfan's perspective, SoCal must be pretty boring.
Most railfans have other interests, and would certainly remain amused in other parts of the world.
i lived in DETROIT home of the DPM DETROIT PEOPLE MOVER !!!!!!
in centerline michigan about 1 mile north of downtown Detroit!! beleive me we had our many bouts of snow there! The people seemed to be a little more "down to earth" though....
As for " los angeles" it is too crowded with too many cars and its rail system ripped out & the chickens here coming home to roost big time !!
( i do like the mountains above pasadena they are very nice to look at & are very beautiful )
some parts of utah arizona new mexico nevada colorado look scenic & beautiful..
took many photos of this as well !!
my rail & bus transit photos is not the only thing i have shot photos / videos of etc..
( if you know what i mean ) ...oh well.....!!
going out to the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM and all of the collections of the los angeles rail collections / PE cars LARy cars PCC cars etc..
We will be members next month for sure !!
Yeah I agree. It's a 23-mile commute to my school every morning. Traffic is usually good but jamups spring out of nowhere out here. You're just driving along, doin' 65-67, and then BOOM traffic is at a dead stop in front of you. It'd be nice if there was some LRT or monorail or something I could take.
BTW, why was i locked out of subtalk? It gave me "cannot find server" errors whenever i tried to post. I could read messages but I couldn't post. This happened at my home AND my school. What was up with that?
I was getting off the E Train last week. When I got on the Q84 at Bay F, I got on the bus, and I read a notice. Starting tomorrow, the Q84 and the Q42 headed towards Laurelton and Sayres avenue and Addesleigh park will be changed to the northbound side of Archer Avenue. The reason this is so unfair is because they built 2 shelters on the other side of archer by the 153rd street entrance. those shelters WILL NOT hold all the Q42 and Q84 riders. If any MTA officials read this, please note that the Q42 and Q84 riders are not happy about this and are banding together to try and protest and complain about this change. If any Railfan or Busfan has anything to say about this, please respond.
Complaining about this kind of problem here will not solve anything. You have to get your politicains and community boards involved. Writ letters to the TA. Call them at 718-330-3322. But I will say this: as far as I know, there is so much bus congestion on the south side during the PM rush, some changes had to be made. Is this a NIMBY?: not my line, do it to someone elses!
Please read my messages on bustalk about what I think of these changes.
BIG AL
An NY&A switcher along with R142's 6381-6385 just left NY&A Fresh Pond Yard for NYCT Linden Yard. I got some pictures I'm going to try to develop today.
Shawn.
The NY&A Switcher just returned to Fresh Pond Yard.
Shawn.
Shawn,
6381-85 made it into the system and passed my way as of 2125 hours (9:25PM). Same locomotives as yesterday except that Loco 888 brought up the rear.
So far all cars are accounted for from 6301-6455 except 6356-60, 6386-90, and 6401-05. I'll take a guess and say 6386-90 are on the way during the week. We shall see!!!
-Stef
anybody know whats up with 6411-20? i heard that the T.P.'s are defective on one of the cars.
Does any one know: what part of a parked car should a cinder block be dropped on from 4 stories in order to disable the alarm? Thanks in advance.
The hood.. right on the driver's side horizon
between hood and windshield...
You could use a sofa, like in that new commercial. That way you can cover the hood, windshield and roof, doing the most possible damage. But, don't get caught. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
In one of my cars the alarm shuts off after one minute if the doors are closed.
Hehehe....
I've noticed that old, rusty cars have the most sensitive alarms. BMWs and snob appeal-based cars are next. I've found this out using the ever-reliable Harley-Davidson method of testing car alarm sensitivity >:) My personal favorite are cars that tell you to move away. If you're THAT paranoid about your car, lock it up in a little box or something.
I find car alarms more of a bother than anything else. I had one on my bike that was useless (besides, the ultimate anti-theft system for a Harley is a kick starter ;) They go off, everyone ignores them. They all sound the same. They go off for no reason at all. What's the big point of them?
You're 100% right. Car alarms ARE useless. No one pays any attention to them. They only make noise and annoy people. When was the last time you called the cops to report a car alarm going off. They only benefit the people who make them.
Peace,
ANDEE
They have one use, the car locks automatically.
Yeah, if you have a car with keyless access...
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, if you have a car with keyless access...
Don't all car alarms have the remote?
No. Many, especially the older ones, are tied into the driver's door key; opening the door with the key gives you several seconds to then hit a button mounted somewhere in the interior.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I too agree with you that car alarms are useless. All they are good for is to make noise in the neighborhood when they go off. They don't do one bit of good. If you want to protect your car you're probably better off getting "The Club" and some cut off switches if necessary.
BMTJeff
Unfortunately, I had a car stolen WITH the club and cut-off switches. It was sometime during the day while parked near the Kew Gardens subway. Why anyone would want to steal a nine-year old Chevy Celebrity is still beyond me.
I refuse to purchase a car alarm because of all the sleep they've cost me, and the fact that they're the classic case of crying wolf. Most thieves aren't the least bit afraid of them because of the fact that no one takes them seriously anymore.
A couple of my cop friends say that they have the ability to disable the alarm from the outside, but whenever one calls the police about a runaway alarm, they couldn't care less. The usual response is "It's part of living in the city; just accept it."
I've seem some very threatening, profane notes left on windshields of such cars. Once a group of neighbors were planning to lay in wait till the owner came out and take baseball bats to him.
I doubt any jury would convict them.
I've actually seen someone beating a car with a baseball bat as the alarm went off. A cop walked right by him and said nothing.
One minute is too long for people trying to sleep.
Once you've woken me up the damage is done. I really cannot stand people (not you) with cheap-o alarms that are set off by a rat farting. Like some of them are.
Peace,
ANDEE
OK, I've never had the alarm go off for vibration. Although, when pushing the car, the alarm pulses a couple of times, but I don't recall it ever going off after being jarred.
In my neighborhood a bus going by sets off car alarms. Does anyone actually think the car is being stolen? How are the owners not annoyed? I guess they don't live near where they park their cars. So, it's the hood on the driver's side just in front of the windshield? I'll let you know how it goes. Oh, and it'll be from my roof, so as not to implicate an open window in February.
Most people ignore car alarms when they go off since most of the time they are set off by the slightest thing that disturbs them. You're probably better off not getting a car alarm since they usually don't do a bit of good.
BMTJeff
Even though a car alarm will not prevent a car from being stolen the insurance companies give discounts if you have one. So I don't see them going away anytime soon.
Peace,
ANDEE
There are other anti-theft devices that insurance companies will give you discounts on besides car alarms.
BMTJeff
Yeah, like the equally useless "club"
Peace,
ANDEE
hey, besides www.transitworld.com and www.transitalk.com do any of you people knowm any other sites with subway video or sound clips?
yes- my site has several video clips of the R142a (including one from inside the cab) on it's opening day.
Go to www.zdeno.com then click on "rolling stock" then "r142" and then "142a"
-Harry
thanx! :)
My Home Office.
Salaam's Video Bazaar.
...others.
It took a little time for it to register but from what I've been reading is the new configuration for the various lines mean that the B is no longer going to be the West End, and the D no longer going to be the Brighton Local? If so, when is this change going to take place and has any decision been made about who's going to use the Manhattan Bridge when that long drawn out affair is finally finished?
Being three thousand miles away is not the easiest to keep up with the rapidly changing events.
There are so many posts constantly about the matter, pay attention.
I'm not always able to get on this site like you, so I'm a little behind in the info. Thanks for the non-information you little squirt. You owe me one.
You come here every few days.
That's frequently enought to check information.
Pork: I'm happy to know that you are such an authority of what we should know. Somewhere I missed the changes concerning the West End and Brighton. Since you are reluctant to share what you know, perhaps some other person will be willing to tell me what is going to happen to the B and D trains.
Sea Beach, what is going on is the Manhattan Bridge, the State wants to re hab the north end of the Bridge, cutting out the IND connection to 6th Avenue from BMT in Brooklyn. We went thru this ten years ago.
Because of this, all BMT service from Brooklyn is going back up (the soon to be re-opened) South side of the bridge.
B and D trains will run from 145th (Bedford Park rush hrs.) and 205th St. to 34th Street/6th Avenue IND and be turned there.
To replace B service in Brooklyn, a W train will be created, running from Coney Island to Astoria via BMT Broadway Express. During off peak hours, it will turn at 57th and 7th.
To replace D service in Brooklyn, a Q train will run, via BMT Broadway Express in Manhattan, making all stops to Coney Island once in Brooklyn. Again this is from 57/7th. This will be a 24/7 operation.
To replace Q express service in Brooklyn, a Q Express will run, making express stops in Brooklyn and Manhattan. This will be a M-F operation.
Take care.
Thank you Piasan. You gave me just about all I need to know, especially the part of the B and D reverting back to their independent lines, and disassociation from the BMT in Brooklyn. All someone needs to tell me is what happens to the N, my favorite train. Will it also go over the Manny B or will it still stay on the same route. Pork got my Italian blood up when he gave me some smart aleck remark about not paying attention, but that's just Pork, and, besides, I must have been off line those three days when the changes first hit the website. Thanks for your help.
No one here knows what is going to happen to the N. I'm really hoping that it will go express. However, i think that the W and Q will be expresses, while the N,R,and Q local will be local. I could be wrong, as this will force the M out of court st., so maybe the N will go exp.?
I sure as hell hope so. To me the Sea Beach will always be an express, even though the TA has screwed that line royally.
N SLOW BOAT LOCAL
We may be the slow boat local but at least that could change. Your Ddtrain is going the way of the five cents cigar. No longer a Brighton Line, but back to its Ind System status. The D will no longer run your favorite route. Ha! Laugh that one off. The Sea Beach lives forever.
Those of us who proudly served the concourse line didn't think all that much of Stillwell either. We always considered Brighton Beach/Coney as a hijacked train anyhoo. Neener-neener. Heh.
Selkirk: Touche! I can live with that. I always considered the Brighton the #1 train which you guys hijacked. And speaking of hijacked I still don;t why the hell my Sea Beach lost its number 4 to that cheap fraud that runs in the Bronx. You see, we just got hijacked, too. I would say that N is my favorite number, but if the TA found out about it the next thing you would know would be that the Sea Beach was renamed the K train or the V train or some other crappy letter.
Well actually, the number system worked out just fine until some *IDIOT* decided that the IRT and the BMT should be merged into some silly unified "transit SYSTEM" ... prior to that, everyone knew that the BMT was not the IRT and could sorta keep it separate. Though a number 14 train musta confused the bejeepers out of many. Then again, prior to the triplexes, it wasn't like there was a route sign.
Now as a former employee, I find this circle and diamond stuff to be the HEIGHT of insanity. I still don't know which is which ... when I worked the railroad, it was colorful as all getout with cyans, magentas and light and dark blues, more electric pinks ... now it looks like they've gone back to red for IRT, black for IND and green for BMT ... did they resurrect the Bored of Transportation again? How *retro* ...
But you've certainly got my vote for having the numbers back on the BMT again ... so long as they stop with those silly circles and diamonds and stop confusing the crap out of the touristas ... heh.
Well there is no argument there on my part. We are in full agreement. But you won't mind if I don;t hold my breath while the TA decides to use the number system on the BMT again. It sure would be nice but those boobs only make things worse, not better. I think damage control is the best thing we can hope for from them.
Well, considering that the "M" has now got the conductors doing the Japanese traffic cop finger exercise, then they might as well go whole hog Nihonjin and paint the cars a different color for each line. If the car bodies are yellow, it's a West End ... Pea Soup Green, 95 St, Dark Green - Sea Beach, Blue - Culver, Red - Canarsie. They wanna change car assignments, it's off to Heypaul's house to have Joe Franklin put in a good word with Martian Paint for a repaint. No route signs, no confusion and the same colors could be on the maps and thus they could paint over the route sign window on the R-4x's just like they painted in the railfan window on the BMT standards (I have pictures of when the side window on the car ends was plain glass just like the motorman's side ... strangely they all got painted over somewhere in history for reasons only the BoT can explain.
After all, if some hapless schmuck can actually figure out where the train is going just by glancing at it, something's incredibly wrong with said picture. :)
That's it---bring heypaul into this mess. I'll bet with his usual easy grasp of things he could bring order from chaos. Maybe he could talk to the TA like a Dutch uncle and show them what's what. Then again, we would probably just be wating heypaul's time on a "mission impossible."
Forget the numbers and letters. How about a color for each line. This is the Broadway Sea Beach chartrusse Local to Astoria
They tried that once already. The maps from that era looked like a maze of colored spaghetti.
And baby pink for the Brighton, with dull gray trim for some brightness.
Which Brighton
Any and all of them, take your pick. When you've seen one Brighton, you've seen them all. Brighton? The D? No!. Brighton? the #1 No! My God where did the Brighton go? Oh, it's the Q as in quince, quit, queer (that's weird not gay), quack, and quasi. Some letter. Mediocre and second rate, hardly used, never praised. A perfect letter for the Brighton..
The Brighton will Be Red or Green for a Major TRUNK LINE
Why? Are they trying to win over us Italians? It will never work.
I certainly would go back to the number system for the BMT. I would figure it out in no time. Just make sure that people realize that the same number is used for two different trains. Red numbers can be used to denote the IRT and green numbers can be used to denote the BMT. You can have the #1 Brighton Beach Exp. once again. Then #4 Sea Beach Fred's favorite #4 Sea Beach Exp. You can also have the #16 Canarsie local.
BMTJeff
I ranted about this on a different thread yesterday -- with all the lines and combinations the BMT and IND had once the merger was finalized, they should have been given the number designations while the IRT -- which has barely changed routes at all in the last 40 years -- should have gotten the letter designations -- A, B and C on the West Side, D, E and F on the East Side and the G train to Flushing.
Assuming the MTA would want to try and group the B Division numbers along the Manhattan trunk lines as much as possible, while trying to stay close to the old BMT designations, you would have had a post-1968 set-up something like this (with the current route letters in parenthesis):
Broadway
1 (Q) -- Brighton/Broadway Express
2 (R) -- Fourth Ave./Broadway Local
3 (B) -- West End/Sixth Ave. Express
4 (N) -- Sea Beach/Broadway Express
5 (D) -- Brighton Local/Sixth Ave. Express
6 (F) -- Queens Blvd.Exp./Sixth Ave./Culver Local
7 (E) -- Queens Blvd. Exp./Eighth Ave. Local
8 (A) -- Eighth Ave./Fulton Express
9 (C) -- Eighth Ave./Fulton Local
10 (G) -- Bklyn./Queens Local
11 (H) -- Rockaway Shuttle
Of course some lines have changed letters over the years -- the C from the K and the AA being the most noticable -- and the arrival of the V on the scene would force the creation of a new No. 12 train on the Sixth Ave. line, which would blow the number pattern apart. But the Southern and Eastern Divisions could have pretty much kept their original BMT number designations, and the double numbers would have been far less perplexing than the myriad of letter combos the MTA has thought up over the years.
And as far as the IND goes, people could have gotten use to taking the No. 5 train on the Grand Concourse or the No. 11 train out in the Rockaways, and to be honest, changing the song "Take the A Train" to "Take the 8 Train" wouldn't have been that much of a stretch :-)
You forgot the 15-(J) Jamaica Line, also 14(Z) 16(L) 7 Was the Franklin and since it still runs it should go back to the Franklin.
I think that the No. 14 train ran on the Broadway elevated in Brooklyn but turned onto the Canarsie line after East New York if I'm not mistaken.
BMTJeff
It did, but most terminated at Eastern PKY(Broadway Junction) They were Rush Hour Only trains
The old 14 had multiple personalities. It did run in skip-stop with the 15 at one time, but it always terminated at Canal St. Its other terminals could be Crescent St., Atlantic Ave., or Rockaway Parkway.
I didn't put the Eastern Division numbers down, because as I said, those lines could have kept their original numbers if the BMT system had been kept, while the Southern Division would have had to go through some changes, including redesignating the 7 - Franklin Shuttle as the S, which would have made it the B Division equivalent of what the 42nd Street shuttle is to the IRT today.
J Lee:
The route number setup that you posted makes the most sense and would eliminate those confusing letters that they're still using on the B division lines. I'd definitely go for your numbering system for the B division trains.
BMTJeff
Sounds great to me, but where the hell were you when we needed you. What they've done to the BMT is criminal. I know all about the IRT being the first, and the fact that it opened on an October 27, my birthday. That cuts no ice whatsoever. Brooklyites and most Manhattanites were BMT people, despite the long time rivalry between the two boroughs. The IRT was the Bronx. Give the BMT the numbers and let the IRT use the letters since they never had numbers on their trains prior to Chyrstie.
While Jay Street may be run by one-year-olds, odds are they wouldn't have listened to one back when the number-letter decision was made in 1958.
As I said in the other thread, if it hadn't been for the fact the IND supporters were pretty much calling the shots for the 30 years after unification, logic would have said double-digit numbers are easier to decipher than double letters and since the IND/BMT unification was already in the works and the IRT was still made up mostly of non-R series cars, it would have been far better to keep the BMT system 43 years ago.
Double numbers? Wow? That would have been really downtown, to use a phrase from the 50's. I could see it now. The Sea Beach. #44. Boy that would be all time. My favorite number on my favorite line. Maybe I'll call by pal George W and ask him to issue an Executive Order to that effect. What the hell, it's worth a try.
Maybe I'll call by pal George W and ask him to issue an Executive Order to that effect.
You're actually acquainted with the President?
No Pork, I was just being facetious. But perhaps someone who knows him could do it. I wish it were me because I would like that change to come with our subway. But as far as goes, it will probably never happen.
Don't think they'd need that many numbers, unless they revive the IND second system plan. But the 10, 11, 12, 14, 15 and 16 trains (and what the heck, throw in a revived KK 6th Ave.-Broadway Bklyn. local and call it the 13) would have been a lot easier to figure out than the NX, QB, QJ, RJ, JJ, AA, BB, CC, HH and, yes, even the KK train when Chrystie Street was opened.
The first numbers were in 1948-49 on the Flushing Line, and then on the Bdway-7th Ave in 54/55
I think the 6 was the first mainline route to marked as such, as the R-17s were initially assigned there in 1955. Prior to that, the R-12s, R-14s, and R-15s were all assigned to the Astoria and Flushing lines.
Did an R12 ever see Astoria. ? It was converted to BMT-only in 1949.
The thing is, the BMT numbering system was Brooklyn-centered while the IND letter-code is Manhattan-centered, with a secondary emphasis on the Bronx and Queens terminals. With the BMTs on the letter code, they did prioritize the Brooklyn terminal over the Manhattan or Queens terminal. Otherwize how do we get the Q on Sixth Ave?
Anyway, considering that Manhattan gets the most out-of-town ridership, I sort of think it makes sense to prioritze accordingly. The modern subway map and letter/number/color code is one of the smartest thing the MTA ever came up with. It's so easily recognizable. You know your train is on Sixth Ave (for instance) by the orange circle, and from there the letter (or number) tells you where the train goes after it leaves the trunk line.
The BMT number code went out well before I was born, but it is my impression that it never had that same recognizabilty. Many trains never even carried it. And numbers reaching into the teens just aren't as easy to remember as letters.
:-) Andrew
Color coding by trunk line came well after the arrival of the B Division letter codes, and while numbers like 10, 11, 12, etc. may be harder to remember than A, B or C, when the consolidation began it created a smorgasbord of two-letter lines that were impossible for anyone but a railfan to get down pat in their minds. Using numbers there definitely would have been better.
"Color coding by trunk line came well after the arrival of the B Division letter codes"
I know that. All I'm saying is that that the current system of identification is excellent, and I'd say superior to what was in place before. I know that it was arrived at gradually. But even before the color coding, the IND letters were grouped logically. A, C, and E (odd letters) on eigth. B, D and F (even letters) on Sixth. Then the A, B, C, and D join on CPW while the E and F join with the G. The N, Q, and R are on Broadway (just ignore the Q on Sixth. Ignore it.)
Of course the system used double letters for locals for the first 50-odd years. That never really made sense. Good riddance to all that.
:-) Andrew
Actually the double-letter scheme served very well on the IND at least at letting you know it was definitely a local, especially on 2 and 3 tracked pieces of the line where the local and express shared the track. Easy at a glance "crawler" or "speeder" for the uninitiated. It's when they went to oddballs like QJ, NX and QT that the eyes would start to glaze over. :)
I would use double-letters, always prefixed with S, to indiviualize the shuttles: SF (Frankin), SR (Rockaway), but call the 42nd street shuttle 42. I',m surprized the TA doesn't rename the G train S as well to signify the Court Square truncation.
I still can't believe that they'd cut the GG ... at LEAST bring it to a platform where it met the other trains. Hell, they even did this for the Franklin shuttle ... the recommended "G" is just silly. For all the trackwork they're doing at QBP, they couldn't just bring it to a single new platform off to the side? If I lived on that line, I'd have gone completely volcanic ...
I do live on that line! here's what they should do: take the G to Queens Blvd. Platform. local. Have the V come in the station on the express track. After the stop, G trains can go to the lay-up track, while V trains switch onto the local.
I'll drink to that. Wait. Let me get my Gatorade.
What No VINO ????
Believe it or not Brighton Beach Bob I do not drink wine. Haven't for 30 years. Why? Don't know. I just got out of the habit just before I got married and never went back into it. Maybe someday.
Like scotch then? :)
Glenfiddich or Chivas Regal?
UUUUUUUUUUU! Do you want to make me sick? Believe me, I cannot take liquor. One drink and I get real tipsy and silly. I'll stick to cranberry and orange juice.
Jesus, OJ and cranberry....so much for the 'ol timers...I thought you'd be able to drink me under the table! lolol
Piasan, when it comes to pasta, ravioli and pizza, I'm as Italian as you could possibly be, but one day I just stopped drinking wine. No reason, I just got out of the habit and never went back to it. Tell you what, the next time my wife and I go out to dinner I will order a glass of wine. Then, who knows? Your inspiration might get back to drinking vino after a 30 year hiatus. I do take a sip of wine when I receive communion every Sunday, so I have dabbled a taste or two.
My grandfather saw 96, and drinks two glasses of Red a day.
On top of the Macanundo, Brascole and baccala.
Go figure, hope I've got his genes!
If you do I'd get to the nearest place of worship and say a prayer of thanks for your good fortune. Maybe there's something to this wine stuff. I've been told by others that wine is a great elixir, but grape juice is a poor substitute. Well drink up.
Jesus, OJ and cranberry....so much for the 'ol timers...I thought you'd be able to drink me under the table! lolol
I don't drink liquor either like you. I did have some champagne on New
Years' but, I did get somewhat tipsy after only about one drink so I didn't have anymore. Like you I'll stick to non-alcoholic beverages.
BMTJeff
I also like the fact the it looks like the IND will no longer be invading the Brighton line with the elimiation of the "D" train from that line. I think that they should get the "B" train the hell off the West End line and go back to the "T" train or even better yet the No. 3 West End line. Get rid of the letters from the BMT and go back to the numbers.
BMTJeff
You are lucky that the Slow Beach hasn t not been changed to a shuttle, and is still a 24/7 train.
Hey Mister D man, or should I say Mr. extinct D man, keep the tears flowing for your soon to be dead and gone D Brighton. Gone the way of the five cents cigar. You're breaking my heart with your piteous cries.
The D is not gone, we still have EXPRESS SERVICE ON THE Q, for quick, not local on the N for Never comes.
Bob, I love you. You're one of a kind. Keep 'em coming.
Fred may have a stroke reading this, but for a time in the late 70s and early 80s, the N did operate as a shuttle between 36th or 59th St. and Stillwell Ave. during the late hours. The RR, as it was known then, ran 24/7.
That s the way it should be now, with the W as a 24/7 b Stillwell to Astoria
No stroke yet, but it isn't the kind of news I like to hear. So maybe things aren't as bad today as I might think. Nevertheless, get that train to go express on Broadway, and get it over the Mann B instead of the lower bowels of Manhattan. To hell with Whitehall Street and those other crappy sports.
The D did not run on the Brighton Line, until I moved to LA, it stillwas the 1 then all the Q s. The reason I wanted a D T shirt was theyd do not make a Q, plus the D goes to Yankee Stadium, The N to Nowhere. Maybe that is why they named it the N for Nowhere line, or Nobody rides it from Manhatten
Bob, you are a work of art. And I found this piece of yours to be actually funny. N to nowhere. Coney Island is not nowhere, but I get your point. Too bad about the D. Maybe we can get the numbers back, and you will realize my #4 is four times better than your #1.
You two have me ROTFLMAO. People refer to the N as Never nowadays. Not to be outdone, the R is known as Rarely.
I forgot Fred you used to Live in Astoria, so let us make the N to Never runs fast
Steve: If you could tell me what the hell ROTFLMAO stands for, maybe I can laugh along with you. But Bob and Fred's barbs are pretty good, eh? Kind of livens up the site a little.
No. The N and R will be local the same as now. The W and both Qs will be Express.
Will both of the Q's run express?
Both Q services in Manhattan (BMT Broadway) will be Express.
I just said that.
Anytime. The N so far is unchanged, going by Montague. However, I can't see why the "N" travels via Manhattan Bridge during off peak when 1 set of ! trains sleeps for the weekend :)
Anytime. The N so far is unchanged, going by Montague. However, I can't see why the "N" would not be able to travel via Manhattan Bridge during off peak when the Q Express train sleeps for the weekend :)
Sometimes I ride the B train but since that a new letter, the "W" train will replace the "B" train as a replacement until 2004 & since there are "W" signs with diamond.
I was just wonderning, does NYCT plan to keep the corrent "W" signs with the diamond or will NYCT buy new rollsigns that will include the "W" with a circle, if the rollsigns are changed, when will they be updated & what subway car equipment will be used on the "W" train.
Finally, will the "W" train in Queens operate express or local.
I heard that they will buy new signs for the R-68's (which have needed them since they were first delivered), and I'm sure these will have the new circle designations, and if another car class is used they will just substitute the diamond. All the plans I have heard have it running express in Queens; this will be the first to do this, unlike the and before.
After all the rumors about The new "W" train. Does anyone have an idea when will the "W" service begin?
August
August 1, 2001 to be exact, I think.
What time? Will there be a Ribbon cutting ceremony? Refreshments?
Cheerleaders? Fireworks? Will the Mayor delivery a speech? Will the press be there? Will there be interviews with the TODAY SHOW? Will the mayor get amnesty or a pardon?
avid
"I heard that they will buy new signs for the R-68's (which have needed them since they were first delivered)"
I bet these signs will be digital...hopefully more like the 142s instead of the crappy ones on the 46s. -Nick
I predict the W will run express in Astoria for about one week. Then the MTA will realize that there just aren't enough passengers at the 2 express stops on the Astoria line (Astoria Blvd. & Ditmars) to justify it.
I think it's because they had problems turning trains at Queensboro Plaza last time around. Guess they figured to augment Astoria Line service with a peak direction express.
They can also augment it with a second local.
No. Demand on the Astoria line doesn't require an additional local service. The only reason the "W" will turn at Ditmars is due to the fact that it would be an operational basket case to turn three lines at 57th Street BMT.
My prediction stands.
The W will not run in Queens. 57/7 is the last stop.
-Hank
I thought the W was going to Astoria.
:-) Andrew
M-F 5AM-10PM, the "W" will run to Astoria.
METROCARD & CARDHOLDERS COLLECTOR¹S CATALOG
This is an 8.5 inch x 11inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A beautiful collectors MUST HAVE. The supply is limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea. plus $2. P & H in check or Money Order.
Made out to: Mike Makman, To: Prof. Putter, Po Box 755
Planet Station, NYC NY 10024
Looking for a diagram or map of the 63 St connector, especially the Sunnyside section including bellmouths, TA, LIRR facilities, links to Sunnyside Yard, etc.
Thanks
You should try looking harder. There's a diagram right on the NYC Subway site here.
http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/63rdconn.jpg
Shawn.
Thanks for the tip. Wish I had the time to know the site better.
All I had to do to find it was to search for "63rd Street."
Shawn.
Transit Tech High School, which is near Euclid Avenue, is WAAAAY far from My House, which is near 149th Grand Concourse.
12.07- Begin Trip by taking an R142#2 train
2.40- at Fulton st- Transfer for an A
2.50- A train arrives and I get on it
3.30- Arrive at Euclid ave.
3.50 Walk towards the school.
3-56- Take about 5 minutes looking at the school, front and back, side to side.
4.00- walk back towards Euclid Ave.
4.15- Caught a C train. Stupid Idea.....
4.35- Arrive at Fulton St. again.
4.40- See many people get on a 4 train.
4.45- Decide to take a 2 train. another stupid idea....
4.50- Caught a redbird, with the world's squeakiest brakes (they can shatter windows....just joking).
5.00- Train goes LOCAL....oh god......
5.40- at 135th ST.....geez....
5.43- arrive at 149th GC.
wow, that was kinda fun...but I took a lot of silly and stupid detours.
>>>12.07- Begin Trip by taking an R142#2 train
2.40- at Fulton st- Transfer for an A <<<
It took you 2 HOURS and 33 MINUTES to get from 149GC to Fulton????
Peace,
ANDEE
andee asked :
"It took you 2 HOURS and 33 MINUTES to get from 149GC to Fulton????"
andee... why are you surprised???... the young man was on an r142...
|r142|--|r142|--|r142|--|r142|--|r142|--|r142|--|r142|--|r142|--|r142|--|r142|
when you take that into consideration, i think he made pretty good time... after all, the new equipment is taking a little extra time to break in...
|r62|--|r62|--|r62|--|r62|--|r62|--|r62|--|r62|--|r62|--|r62|--|r62|
LOL.
Heypaul, what is your favorite A-Division car? Do you dislike the R143 the same way?
But the R-143 is a B division car...
Peace,
ANDEE
I know. They are separate questions.
i really don't have any favorite a division car... i suppose of the existing cars, anything without a full width cab that you can look out of, is preferable...
i haven't really paid attention to the r143's, as i have been busy putting pin striping on my r9 cab...
Gotta say mine is the R-15s with the highly unique porthole windows in the doors-Say, is it my imagination or where they the ONLY IRT cars to employ three-axle trucks? I remember vaguely riding them on the #2 and #3 lines as a kid that they did, although I cannot be sure!! If any knows, please post!!! Peace :> Thomas
I meant existing.
BTW, nice handle. I loved Thomas the TANK Engine and its too bad PBS took him off the air.
The Shining Time Station TV show? they were taken off because their star of the show took her own ways and so did the entire cast.
Shining Time Station was a great show...
I hate to admit this: When Barney the purple dinosaur became a big hit I was doing Pediatric ICU rotations in a hospital. Doing a 24-hour shift in intensive care, and having to listen to Barney over and over and over again on the kids' TV's gave me fantasies about an episode where Barney gets kidnapped and tied up on railroad tracks and then NO ONE saves him when Thomas the Tank Engine runs him over...
I apologize to all (except Barney).
I would mainly appologize to Thomas for that!
;-D Andrew
Well the R15's still exist. On work trains anyway.
totally agree...thomas the tank engine KICKS ASS. Better than all these other P.O.S. kids shows (Arthur, Barney, Teletubbies....PUH-LEEESE!). All I can say is, the hayul with those troublesome trucks.
I must agree. Maybe we can send one of those R142 cars to deal with them. It seems some people think they are so incredlibly great...
I MUST AGREE, I TRULY DO KICK ASS!!! GLAD Y'ALL LOVED MY SHOW, I HAD TO HAVE IT TAKEN OFF OF PBS DUE TO CREATIVE DIFFERENCES AND SALARY DISPUTE. AT LEAST THOUGH, I FOUND ANOTHER HOME HERE AT SUBTALK!!! p.s.: HOW COME NO ONE HAS ANSWERED MY QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT R-15s/16s USED THREE AXELED BOGEYS OR NOT?
PEACE, THOMAS THE SUBWAY ENGINE :>
Not that I was asked, but my favorite A-division car is the R62. Can't wait to see them on the 7!
:-) Andrew
Beofer someone corrects me, I think the 7 is getting R62A's. Same difference.
:-) Andrew
|red|--|bird|--|red|--|bird|--|red|--|bird|--|red|--|bird|--|red|--|bird|
LOL
K'..Andee beat me to it.. but Heypaul just hit
with the POST OF THE MONTH!!
i second the nomination !!
>12.07- Begin Trip by taking an R142#2 train
>2.40- at Fulton st- Transfer for an A
Serves you right!
r142 takes 2hours and 33 minutes to make a trip
which a redbird can make in 48 minutes... tops!
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Why don't you people just get over the Rust Vultures? Geez, it makes me want to strangle some of you people who hate the R142s just because they're better than the Rust Vultures and newer and are replacing them. It's not like the R142s are replacing a superior car as is the case with the current crop of buses replacing the RTS nationwide. I wish some of you would drag yourselves out of the 1950s and 60s and join us reality based people in 2001. You all should be happy that the Reds lasted this long, enjoy the little time you have left with them, move on with your lives, and stop bashing the R142s, many of which will outlive you. God, I've never seen so many rabidly, delirious, and unreality based people on one board.
I know there are SOME people on this board that are tired of seeing some Red fanatic bash the R142 for every little thing. It seems like I'm the minority here in being tired of hearing all the moaning and groaning. You people are supposed to be SO mature, but you sound like a class of five year olds. Many of you whine about the R142s because they are the Hitler of subway cars, but yet you all never give any reason your crappy, whining braked, frame collapsing, Rusted Vultures are any better. You state they're old and have lasted long, but that doesn't make them any better. With that logic, you can say an 80 year old man who used to play basketball can beat Kobe Bryant just because he's been around longer.
Is there ANYONE out there who agrees with me on this unnessecary R142 hating?
some of my bashing of the 142's comes from an amusement at seeing what jumps in technology can do to reliability...
some of my bashing of the 142's comes from an amusement of seeing some reality based people like yourself becoming unhinged at someone else's feelings...
stay tuned... later today i will post a heypaul "2001
i'm sorry dave" tribute to the r142's...
I don't have anything against the R142's, just letting y'all know.
Well, judging by your name I didn't think you did.
"I don't have anything against the R142's, just letting y'all know."
Neither do I, but I wouldn't mind riding one. Where are they ? Deliveries of new cars are being posted here daily, it's not nice to hide from Bill "Newkirk".
Bill "Newkirk"
When was the last time that you've been to NYC?
That has to be the most ridiculous thing you've posted to me since you tried to tell me the 132-Harwin Express wasn't an express bus becuase it didn't apply by NYCs expensive rip-you-off standards even though the bus is clearly marked express.
Anyway, posting that made no sense at all because I never mentioned anything about NYC. Posting about Redbirds and R142s really has nothing to do with NYC except the fact that they run there but technically any city with a subway can have them. So what does it matter if I've been to NYC? I've been reading this board and I've been hearing about the R142s so called problems of which many were minor and the Redbirds being hailed higher than God. I'm sure if many of the people here looked hard enough, they could find numerous problems on the Redbirds they could post about seeing as they're 40 or pushing 40 and all.
If I understand correctly you work for the subway department. Had you posted something insightful from your experiences with these cars instead of a stupid and idiotic question, perhaps you would've shared something with me I didn't know about the old cars and the newer 142s. Alas, you did not, instead you posted a question to try and make me look unqualified to comment. You'll find that the hardest task of your life my friend, so good luck.
Now, you can ignore all of that post if you were actually going somewhere with that question besides "Well, if you've never been to NYC, what makes you an expert on subways?" If you weren't, then all of that post applies.
BTW, I've never been to NYC.
Thanks a lot. I was asking because you said that you were coming to New York for the first time a few months ago and I wanted to ask you what your opinion was about NY and our system. But NOOOOO, I've got to get lambasted by you because you think that I am going to undermine your credibility. Far from the truth. And as far as that Houston Express bus post goes, that's yesterday's news. Forgotten.
And you said:
>>>If I understand correctly you work for the subway department. Had you posted something insightful from your experiences with these cars instead of a stupid and idiotic question, perhaps you would've shared something with me I didn't know about the old cars and the newer 142s.<<<
I cannot do that as those cars are in the A division and I work in the B division.
I would appreciate it if next time I ask a question that you would give me the benefit of the doubt. If I'm going to disagree with you, I'll do it without asking a two-part question and I will do it respectfully. I'm not your enemy.
Sorry. But I thought you were doing something similar to this.....
Person A (Me): I've heard from a message board I've been reading that girls from Queens are better than girls from Staten Island even though the Queens girls are gold-diggers looking for a way out of the ghetto and a free ride, while the girls from SI still have their faults, but are easier to get along with, look better, aren't as loud, and don't have bad attitudes. So what's up with all this SI girl hating?
Person B (You): Have you ever been to New York?
Person A: ...No
Person B: Well, who are you to judge what we have going on down here? You've never been to New York. You all probably don't have any girls worth looking at down there in Houston. Furthermore, our worst girls are 10x better than your best girls. What do you have to say about that?! Besides, at least we have...
I think you get the picture. Sorry, about going off, but I'm used to getting that type of response in a debate.
No problem RTS. On my part though, I could've worded the question a little better.
New technology always needs a little shakeout. The military knows that well enough..
When Chrysler was working on the original prototypes of the M-1battle tank for the Army, the press went to town publicizing the comical, embarrassing and even shocking problems encountered on the proving grounds. There was even speculation that the only thing the tank could do well was fire a white flag out of the cannon tube with I SURRENDER written on it after it threw a track and got stuck in the mud.
But most people were not paying attention as the bugs on a superb concept got worked out, one by one, by dedicated engineers and technicians who clearly strived for excellence. Years later, this "screwed up, overpriced white elephant" showed up in the Gulf and showed that there was nothing in the world that could even come close to matching it.
The R-142 (and R-143) are needed to help bring MTA up to 2001 standards for comfort, efficiency and ADA access. If MTA people and the car builders show the same kind of dedication and tenacity, then the R-142 will develop into a superb, world class railcar.
Well, no one seems to want to believe that the R142s will some day (a few months) have the few minor bugs that plague them worked out. Instead they use their biased opinions of them to make them seem WAY worse than they really are. When an R142 explodes or something drastic like that, maybe I'll let up, but not until then. The Redbirds had their share of problems too when they were first introduced and they definately have their problems now. I can understand nostalgia, but this is getting a tad ridiculous.
Well, no one seems to want to believe that the R142s will some day (a few months) have the few minor bugs that plague them worked out.
You obviously do, and I DO (I hate the Repulsive Rustbirds).
Is there ANYONE out there who agrees with me on this unnessecary R142 hating?
Right here.
DOWN WITH THE REPULSIVE RUSTBIRDS
When I was younger I whined forever about the present so-called redbirds and their predecessors replacing the old High-V and Low-V that I loved so much Likewise seeing old steam vessels in the harbor being replaced by modern ones or just plain removed from service; the GMC busses of the 1946-53 or so period biting the dust, etc.
Later, in the 70's it was watching the beloved R1-9 die a slow death and hearing so many train personnel calling them rotten names. Well, the time has come, the walrus said.We all reach a point in life where we accept the fact that we can't stop moving on and nothing can be forever as much as we'd like it. Yes, I wish I could ride the IRT as I knew it in the 50's but it's gone so I enjoy, for now, the redbirds.Which will be gone too.
Will I like the R142? No. The ambience is awful. I do like modern CTA, Amtrak superliners, the R44/46, etc. I can't stand the R62 interiors...on and on.
I detested having a computer screen replace gages and cut out cocks on the controls of a diesel loco, but had to live with it.
If the R142 doesn't work it is that KISS was forgotten and as too often is done they're paying for trying to re=invent the wheel.It has happened before. But modern technology has worked elsewhere..even if I'd rather be riding classics.But live the memories and enjoy what you have.
Has the bashing gone on too long? Even this dinosaur thinks it has.
||///|_|//////|_|//////|_|//////|_|///||
||\\\|=|\\\\\\|=|\\\\\\|=|\\\\\\|=|\\\||
secret seating design for R/143 reveals angle seating to allow all seat passengers to view LED tv screens that will display view of track ahead. This is an effort to use hi-tech to appease railfans that will lose there beloved "storm doors" .
The seating has an appealing Herringbone design from its creator
"heypaul herringbone seating corporation"
The system is having problems adjusting to sudden changes in light levels when entering or exiting stations or portals.
avid
just LOOKS uncomfortable.
Probably worser.
right on south ferry !!
those new STYROFOAM scrap junkers will
not last 1/2 as long as the redbirds did !!
right on south ferry !!
those new STYROFOAM scrap junkers will
not last 1/2 as long as the redbirds did !!
Of course they wont last half as long. They'll last LONGER than the REPULSIVE RUSTBIRDS!!!
any MTA affiliated schools in NYC that are not far from 149th GC?
The new WMATA cars WILL NOT enter service tomorrow. Instead, their first revenue runs will be later this month. I have been e-mailing a WMATA employee lately and hopefully, he will tell me an exact date as to when they will enter service.
I finally looked at the pictures of the L.A. Rail lines in the photos section here. The Red line looks quite nice.
I like the style of the cars they use, they are modern yet the sides have the classic look of an R32 in some ways.
What are the speeds like on the Red line? What about the green and blue lines? How are fares paid? And what kind of signal system do they use?
Sorry so many questions, I just didn't find the information there.
The cars on the LACMTA Red Line are basically the same design as those in Baltimore and Miami. The LA cars were built by Breda.
The top speed is 70 miles an hour on the Red Line,usually achieved between Hollywood and Universal City as that's quite a long stretch.
Presently on the Green and Blue Lines the top speed is 55 miles an hour. Supposedly it will be boosted to 65 miles per hour when all the Siemens P2000 cars are in service there.
Fare collection is "honor system" or "Proof Of Payment" [POP]. You buy your fare at TVM's at the stations before boarding the train. Passengers are checked by transit police officers at random. If one does NOT have a valid proof of faare payment, they are issued a citation that could cost quite a few bucks (a LOT more than paying the fare would have been).
I'm sorry I cannot answer questions regarding the signal systems though. I haven't the foggiest. I'm gonna guess that it is all cab signals, as I don't recall ever seeing line signals other than around switches (interlockings).
The L.A. M.T.A. "RED LINE" junk subway cars are being scrapped to keep others alive!
many " operators" have told me here!!
Too many of those UGLY italian / breda built cars were " over ordered" & overstocked then the entire "RED LINE" will never need !! It would be a joke except we had to pay for this junk!!
also NO COMPATIBILITY with the green & blue lines at all A BIG MISTAKE made by the same folks who built the " Towering Inferno" TAJ MAHAL ( the los angeles m.t.a. hdq ) !!
the RED LINE might as well be an AUTOMATED PEOPLE MOVER !! it sucks!!
AC dosent work either except in the WINTER TIME !!! geeeeeeeezzzzz!!!!!!
thats my comment folks, thank you!!
salaamallah
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
check out these ugly subway cars for yourself!!
this post is NOT directed at any poster just the subject of the post ..............................!!!
All Los Angeles Mass Transit IS THE DEVIL.\\/
@ you must have been here..!!! right ??
your post sounds good to me !!
All Los Angeles Mass Transit IS THE DEVIL.\\
right for the 2nd time .....agreed ...
by the way " driving sucks" ...!!!
Wow ... could you imagine such a fare control system in NEW YORK?!?! Heh.
Still sounds faster than anything in the NYC subway system though.
Are there any systems slower than NYC??
Never fear, the L.A. system isn't terribly useful to most people living in L.A. I know several people/families living in the area, and when I ask about the subway they look at me funny, like I'm asking about a foreign country. "The subway... that's downtown! Why would I go downtown?"
LA is just one big parking lot.
Yeah that's a problem with L.A., most of the stuff is in the suburbs, so most people don't even go to the city. L.A. is like one big suburb.
Their city is nothing compared to NYC. Of course this is biased, coming from a NY area person.
L.A. may have warmer weather, no snow, and better radio but I'm staying put right here in the NY Metro!
"Never fear, the L.A. system isn't terribly useful to most people living in L.A."
And yet LA's Blue Line and Red Line both have respectable ridership numbers similar to lines on the Chicago, Philadelphia, or Boston rail systems. Neither has crossed the 100,000/day figure yet, but then the CTA's Orange or Green Lines don't either.
Well if it's any consolation, I got the N train in the 60 St tube to do 63 mph going to the city.
i just received this months era bulletin, and enclosed was a notice of a tour of grand central station on sat feb 24 at 9:45 am...the trip costs $10 and will include the architectural and structural features of the terminal... various kinds of equipment, hidden passageways, platforms, and other unusual places will be visited... who knows if you're really lucky they'll show you where the national headquarters of the era are located inside the terminal...
i don't know how many years ago it was, but i was on the first era sponsored tour of grand central and we walked along the steam tunnels that go under park avenue... that was the highlight of the tour for me, as the steam tunnels had always captured my imagination... i think the metro north police had cleared out the tunnels of its occupants before the tour... the heat from the steam pipes was quite noticeable... i don't know if they have gone back into the steam tunnels in later years....
the tour will meet at 9:45am at 42nd street and park avenue, where you will told how to find grand central terminal...
you can call 212-986-4482 for info on mondays 6-7 pm
I am creating an experiment to try to have a universal rail/bus website update page. In this way, one will be able to get update messages from all participating sites by joining the single Yahoo Club I have created. For instance, provided that TransiTalk, NYC Subway Resources, and Oren's Transit Page all join, you can get all their update messages provided you sign up! Both webmasters and web browsers are welcome and needed! The club isn't worthwhile without both!
The URL for the club is http://clubs.yahoo.com/transitsiteupdates.
I will update on the sucess of this experiment as time goes on.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com
I got this when I tried to access,
The requested URL /transitsiteupdates was not found on this server.
Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry, Andee. I made a mistake.
The correct URL is: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/transitsiteupdates.
Sorry for the confusion!
My bad!
The correct URL is: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/transitsiteupdates.
Sorry for the confusion!
My bad!
The correct URL is: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/transitsiteupdates.
Sorry for the confusion!!!
I already maintain lists of pages by date and newest images. If you want to use that data somehow please feel free but I don't have the time to update a third party site when I make updates...
I know. Fair enough. I was just using NYCSR as an example.
Andee, the pic you posted to the yahoo site (train rex) didn't come up.
According to the February, 2001 issue of "The Bulletin" which is published by the New York Division of the Electric Railroaders' Association there are R-33s running on the No. 6 line. The numbers of the cars are unknown at this time but if anyone should spot any of the R-33s on the No.6 line please tell everyone about them and which (car nos.) they are.
BMTJeff
20 239th St Yard R-33s are assigned to the Pelham Line in exchange for 20 R-62As from Westchester Yard which operate the Dyre Av Line OPTO Service. There are NO specific set of cars assigned to either line; R-33 and R-62A assignments on the 5 and 6 change regularly.
In addition to the R-26/28/29 assignments, R-33s 8806-35 are also assigned to the 5, with 8836-55 assigned to the 4, 8856-9215 go to the 2, minus 20 cars which go to Pelham. You will see an occasional R-26/28/29 on the 2 if needed.
And let us not forget that R-33s 9216-9305 are assigned to the 4.
-Stef
Two questions:
1) Which r62's are on the OPTO Dyre Avenue Line, or does it vary?
2) Is their a "train roster" posted anywhere, detailing which trains run on which lines? (It probably would be easiar to maintain than the bus lists, since trains don't change routes all too often - except on the E, F, and R lines.
Thanks
flx7595
1) As I was saying, Pelham R-62As that go to Dyre Av vary. For instance, one week you might see 1651-55 and 1706-10. Another week, you might see, 1806-1810 and 1866-70. You just never know what you might get. This week was a little more unusual. 1691-1700 were together. The yard is usually in the habit of mixing everything up. I for one would prefer to see cars coupled in an orderly manner. It should be easier to drill cars out with defects, or so it may seem.
2) You can find material here on the site for rosters, check it out.
-Stef
Didn't someone earlier say that they'd seen 9XXX on the 6, that was outta Woodlawn or something?
BMTman i saw 92xx running on #6 yesterday & the number was 9226-9227, 9249-9248, 9278-9279 & other i couldn't see it because the frist 4 cars were inside the tunnel & other 6 was outside before entering Hunt Point Ave
Peace Out
David Justiniano
BTW: I will find out the numbers because i take #6 train home after work.
BTW it #9245-44 not #9248-49. The last 6 cars i saw is 9245-9244, 9278-9279, 9226-9227 on #6 line.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Subtalkers, does anyone know of any model train manufacturers BESIDES MTH that are making model SUBWAY cars? I'd sure like to know cause MTH is taking FOREVER to distribut theirs, is charging $$$$$ for theirs, and in my opinion could've done a better job on the realism and the range of models offered! Thanks in Advance, Thomas :>
Yes. Images Replicas produces in both HO and N scales - and they aren't toys, they're excellent models. Not cheap, but...
And I wouldn't complain about MTH too loudly - they might hear you and stop production altogether. I'm not into O scale myself but be thankful they're doing anything at all; the interest level is barely there to sustain subway products.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A friend and I will be trying to assemble a four-car HO R-68 set (easier to adapt existing model rolling stock when modelling a 75' car and not worrying about A and B car types). It will probably take a few months to get it right. Image replica's cars and unpowered. We'll try to give at least one car a power unit, and see about creating a reasonable interior...
Seconded ... be grateful despite the rough ride. I have N gauge and after years of looking for ANYTHING subway like and seeing that O gauge seemed to be all there was, ended up buying four four car sets of Kato JR cars that look vaguely like a cross between redbirds and R-32s with full width cabs (traditional Japanese jobbies) ... every time I went to a shop or looked through catalogs, couldn't find diddle out there. All I ever heard was "why don't you model your own?"
Now ... if someone made N gauge EL STRUCTURES in sections, that'd be neat. All I've seen do far is the Kato "viaduct" kit and it just doesn't do it for me. So it's all grade level. I think my wigs would think I completely lost it if my desktop subway system became elevated. Heh.
Well, I've managed to combine Kato viaduct sections and Micro-Engineering bridge kits to come up with a believeable West Side line - not an exact replica but it captures the feel. Now if I ever get it painted and weathered...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I do have a misearble sort of el as the two track mainline (with full four way interlocking at each end at the two terminals) leaves my desk to go across filing cabinets to the bookcase in the back of the room - the file cabinets were about two inches lower than the ends so I ended up using a bunch of Atlas deck truss bridges and flexrail for the sorta elevated sections there. But it sure don't look right. Keeps the line flat at least. One of these days, have to build the extension to the other desk in the back of the office where "Tree-ler Park" station awaits construction ... maybe I'll build it when the 2nd Avenue line opens down yonder. Heh.
I saw the Kato viaduct and it's pretty and all - but reminds me more of LIRR than NYCTA ... have had many fantasies of spare time sufficent to go nuts with plastruct but then again if I had *that* much time, I'd rather spend it in Branford. :)
Chris there are a few that I know of, but most produce stuff only spuradically.
(1) Model Traction Supply Co. (aka MTS NOT to be confused with MTH, or Mike's Train House): produces a line of brass subway and trolley cars in HO scale. There may be an O gauge among the lot, but that's a rarity. Brass is pricey, but the detailing is spectacular. In the past they produced the R-21 and all variants thereof; a three-car R-10 set; and a beautiful Nickel-plated brass 2-car set of the R-38 cars. MTS should have an active website.
(2) Allied Transit Services (O gauge only). They imported the beautiful O scale model of the BMT Bluebirds. These had FULL interior detailing, but were unpowered units. This were a bit expensive ($600 for a two-car unit), mostly due to their having been manufactured in Russia. ATS is an IMPORTER only. They do not produce their own models -- at least not yet. I believe they are involved with the pre-production work to have the Russian maufacturer produce an accurate O scale R-1/9 series car. Stay tuned for more details on that!
(3) Q-Car Co. This is a long-time manufacturer of R/T and subway car accessories and epoxy-resin cast car bodies. Back in the 70's Q-Car produced some fairly decent HO scale models of the BMT Standards and R-1/4 cars. They no longer produce these, and now seem to have concentrated on O-gauge trolley equipment. They may still carry their line of die-cast metal HO scale subway underbody detailing and trucks. There O scale subway trucks are a sight to behold! There is a website for this company.
(4) Image Replicas. They carry a line of plastic and/or resin subway cars and accessories. These are available in kit form only (build it and paint it yourself) but because of this are less expensive overall. I believe they have the full-range of IRT R-21 types (earlier porthole types and 1964 WF configurations). The newer R-62's are part of the line as are the just released R-1/9 cars that are even better in detail than the old Q-Car versions.
Thought that would help you out (sorry about the long-winded review, but it's good for those who are not yet into the modelling end of the hobby).
BTW, check the 'Transfer Station' site here at nyc.subway.org for the actual links for some of the above.
BMTman
There are several and those I know of are listed on this page.
-Dave
I think that the price asked for the R-42s was reasonable as is the price asked for the R-21's but it would be nice to have them in dealer stock in a timely manner but I think they will be worth the wait. I have built model railroads in all scales from N to Lionel Standard over the last 35 years and have operated real locomotives as well and feel that "O" tinplate has the most realistic "feel" of any model trains. GO, MTH
According to the MTH website, the long-awaited R-21s (both proto sound and locosound) are once again being delayed. The delivery is now scheduled for 6/15/2001. Live in hope - Die in dispair.
Oh well....they also pushed back the date of their DCS (command control) system. Many of the advanced features of the Protosound-2 trains can't be accessed without DCS (although they'll still run fine in "Conventional Mode", a la the R42 sets).
Some time this month, a company called Digital Dynamics is introducing a new circuit board called "The Equalizer" that will convert Protosound-1 trains to Lionel TMCC Command Control. Unlike the existing TrainAmerica board, these boards will supposedly let you retain your "sounds-in-neutral" sequences, which in the case of the R-42 sets, means you'll still be able to run the automatic station stop. TrainAmerica is also working with QSI (the manufacturer of Protosound-1 boards) to produce a similar board, although I believe it will cost more.
Does anyone know MTH's tentative priceing for its to be issued evtually NYCT subway cars? Whatever it is I'm SURE its still way cheaper than Model Replicas, which is $$$$$ish. Thanks. Thomas:>
30-2198-0 MTA R-21 4-car Subway Set w/Loco Sound $200.00
30-2198-1 MTA R-21 4-car Subway Set w/Proto-Sound $300.00
Original Delivery Date was Nov, 2000
Current Tentative Delivery is now Jun 15, 2001
Some dealers may offer a small discount on these prices.
I am unaware of add-on cars being catalogued as yet.
OH MY GAWD!!! *gasp* this puts them in the price range of Replica Image, what we clearly need is more suppliers to help bring the price down, as the demand is clearly there!! Thanks 4 the info, Peace,Tom:>
What is there Friggin' problem???!!
It's getting annoying how every couple of months their delivery date gets pushed back.
BMTman
They may be trying to avoid the problem that turned up with the R-42 D Train!
At this point, with roughly 60 feet of track remaining to complete my subway system, I am not hard pressed yet for the set. However, it is getting frustrating and I really am getting somewhat impatient too.
I have never seen the MTH R-42 E train in operation. Is the interior lighting on the original E train dimmer than on the earlier MTH R-42 D train?
Karl, so far I've only run my R-42 D's. I'm very impressed the way they can pull a 6 car train over some of my prototypical grades with little trouble or wheel slip. I can't say the same for my K-Line locos that pull my work train (ok, so I play while I work). However, I assume that you are referring to the difference in the lighting intensity between the original cars and the add-ons. It is quite noticeable although I like the looks of the add-ons better.
Steve, I guess I was wondering if the original R-42 E train had the same bright illumination as the original R-42 D. Since the E came out at the same time as the D add-ons I was thinking that it might have the same dimmer bulbs, and not have the bright illumination that the original four car D had!
I had also heard that the bulb locatons in the E power unit were different from where they were in the D.
Train Dude:
Just out of curiosity, what type of track are you using?
I'm using Gargraves Phantom flex track for most of the layout. I've used some Ross & Gargraves curves where I wanted really parallel curves, especially since I have some segments where I have 4 parallel tracks. Gargraves 042 switches look great on my Wye (9 switches, 1 30 degree and 1 45 degree crossing make up the whole junction) leading to the Hellsgate bridge. I also used a few Ross custom switches - the yard is made of the ross 4 track yard switch. Subway uses 1/2 plywood roadbed as I wanted a prototypical rumble. By my estimation, my subway will have roughly 4 scale miles of track. The class I will be a huge oval with a yard that goes around the subway.
With all that model RR stuff, where do you find room to
store the lane resurfacing and drain unclogging equipment>
[(my) Subway uses 1/2 plywood roadbed as I wanted a prototypical rumble.]
Hmmm, hadn't thought of that before, have to keep it in mind.
How about the squeal on the curves, what can be done for that ? Play a tape I guess.
Mr t__:^)
Please see my post in an earlier thread for the complete answer to this. Basically the issue is that MTH had gotten some erroneous information regarding the scale details of these cars, which was subsequently corrected through the efforts of the New York City Model Transit Association. Corrections to the cars were made, but the delays put these further back in the schedule, as other models had to fill the slot during the reiterative design process. The cars are currently in production in Korea, and are expected to ship to MTH in March, 2001. Expect them at dealers about a month to two months later. MTH is still waiting for the Protosounds 2 software to be completed for these, so that may delay things slightly beyond these dates.
It never ceasese to amaze me how fickle railfans can be! They are worse than sports fans! For years, we waited in vain for anyone to produce an affordable subway model, bemoaning the limited availability and high costs of the limited run models produced by the cottage industry suppliers (BTW - have you tried to order a Q-Car Co. R-17? Don't expect Quentin to make any more in this lifetime!). We hoped beyond hope for someone to hear our futile cries. Now a MAJOR MANUFACTURER has heard us, and is COMMITTED to producing models of NYCTA equipment, not only a one-off deal, but future models as well. And what do we do? Cry like a five year old when we can't get the toys when we want them! PATIENCE PLEASE! Good things come to those who wait! I'm sure these models (and the future releases) will be worth waiting for!
The first run was a little late. Okay. Afterward a few more products were later.
When you start to see bigger Gaps in your delivery date, you better not promise or announce a delivery date unless you can come relatvely close. Perhaps MyTH should have set a 2002 date. Then delivered before and been a hero.
Most user/collectors feel they have been duped to pre order with a deposit and have only talk to show for it.
Other producers take heed. There is a market! And MyTH is slow to meet more then one delivery date. He , Mike, is using the pre-rollouts to test the waters. Well the demand is there! I'd love to see Lionel produce Standards,D-types and R 1/9s with the detail of the MU's . The info is out there . I'm sure NYCTA would issue a license or two to the various makers.
Hello K-Line, Williams , Weaver. Theres a new market out here.
avid
Excellent, avid. That's exactly the point...MTH should stop making annoucements about dates that they know they can't keep and stop jerking those who pre-ordered around.
BMTman
Remember, no one is holding a gun to your head to buy these models! If you don't like the service that a manufacturer is providing, don't buy their product. Simple as that. As far as Lionel producing Standards, R1-9's and D Types, don't hold your breath! A few years ago, I would have said Lionel would NEVER produce a model subway train. With the new management, that may change. BUT, and it's a big but, you have to remember that even with all the rabid subway fans out there, we represent a VERY SMALL percentage of the model train market. These models may still be too specialized for a major manufacturer to produce. How many people out in Nebraska do you know of that have any idea what a "D Type" was? Even MTH, in selecting the models that they have chosen to produce, were careful enough to select a prototype that is either generic enough or that is still running so that it is familiar to todays market. After all, people in Nebraska can watch "NYPD Blue" or "King of Queens" on the tube. That said, I'd love to see a reasonable priced set of pre-war equipment, but I just don't see it happening from the "big guys". Allied Model Transit has announced they will produce O SCALE R-1/9's, made in the former Soviet Union as fully finished, detailed and painted static models that can be powered by Q-Car Co. power trucks. Check out the "Modeling the New York City Subway" at www.monmouth.com/~patv for more info. Being scale models though, these will not be cheap. BTW, I don't work for MTH and have no affiliation with them. My involvement in the R-21 project was as a member of the New York City Model Transit Association only.
Frank
I am touched by your loyalty.
However, I have, over the years called many dealers. The Transit products do just fine. Most Railfans preorder because DEMAND is that high. If you don't , you miss advertised MSRP or prebuy discounts. So please no B.S. about Scratchback Ohideiho. Railfans and modelers WILL have an idea or know where to go to find out. I believe a lot of "City kids wpould have preferred and could identify with Transit as apposed to "Santa Fe" I, and other train fans would fantasize that Budd RDC were Subways.
The Model and toy industry has been kind of static until about the time MYH came along. He gave the industry a needed burst of diversity.
I don't fear the market will be glutted to soon if others got into the rapid transit scene. I like interurbans as well. I have K-Line as well as Lionel. So I do go to others if they match my wants with their products. Lionel was late too. Just so they don't crank out disinformation with a bigger hollow promise.
avid
Modelers all over the country buy RAILROAD models while Subway/rapid transit cars mainly appeal to those who live in or near the city those cars operate in. I THINK THOSE WHO CRITICIZE MTH ARE DEFINITELY IN THE MINORITY but it would be nice to get those 'birds on my layout soon. BE PATIENT, BE GRATEFUL, NO WHINING
Well said John!
Yes but think of the numbers of people in the cities compared to other places. The Bronx alone double the population of the whole state of Montana which is 3 times the area of NYState!. Good; I like it this way.Therefore so many more rail hobbyists in areas where buyers seek urban rail transit models.[also buy mainline RR stuff]
Next: an ad in Classic Toy Trains, from Ready to Roll Trains in Miami.Judging from subtalk the things are Not ready to roll but then why advertize? Advertised are Premier MTA R32 Subway set; Railking R21's, and Chicago Subway.
E mail address: www.ReadyToRollTrains.com
Phone 305-688-8868; order line 877-RTR-TRNS
Maybe I've been of some help but sounds unlikely.
are there any MTA affiliated high schools other than Transit Tech?
What is the Transit Authority's policy on heat on subway cars ?
OK, stop laughing! Is there the temperature set very low or is the heat off alltogther?
I believe the lack of heat is to thwart the homeless to "camp out' on the subways. Last year, I rode a #6 to 51st St. to transfer to the (E). The Redbird I rode must have had a defective thermostat. The interior temperature had to be about 80o or better. all windows were open too. So I know the climate system can provide.
Train Dude, Zman, Jeff H. or anyone else. Know anything about this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Each car has an exterior thermometer which is supposed to provide interior climate control. However sometimes these units aren't working properly.
Sometimes you enter a car which has no heat which can be attributed to a bad thermometer, a tripped 600 volt circuit breaker (either floor heat or overhead heat), or a circuit breaker turned off by a crew member (a no no) to deter the homeless.
On the other hand a car's heating system can be working overtime causing a car to become very hot. Just like, but not as bad as the IRT cars in the 80's. If you've ever sat in the "hot seat" before you'll know what I mean. YEEOWCH! The hot seats were always marked by a huge burn mark.
Most times the car thermometer is the fault for any heat problems.
Some cars seem to have worse heat than others. Some of the worst, the R46's that run on Queens Blvd. It feels as if there's little or no heat in them. R44's don't fare much better. Some of the best heat is on the R68's on the B division, and the Redbirds on the Flushing line.
All the other cars have mediocre heat.
The temperature ranges are as follows:
59 degrees farenheit and below - heat is called for.
60 degrees farenheit to 70 degrees farenheit - fans only, no heat or cooling.
71 degrees farenheit & higher. AC comes in. It varies over a few degrees but usually in this pattern.
71 degrees = #1 end low cool
72 degrees = both ends low cool
73 degrees = #1 end high cool + #2 end low cool
74 degrees = both ends high cool
The reason there is no heat called for until the car temp is below 60 degrees is because most people are fully dressed for cold weather, including coats and hats. Having heat on above 60 degrees could be uncomfortable.
BTW, John's assessment of the heat is directly backwards from how the train crews feel. R-44 & R-46 have cab heaters on both sides of the cab so the cabs are nicely warm. On the R-68 & R-68A, only one side of the cab is heated and is insufficiently so.
5049running on the
145th St, Manhattan Coney Island
I noticed that one today too. It joins the ranks of 5116 and a few others. This may be a sign of their planning on purchasing digital signs for the 68as, otherwise they'd have replaced them by now.
Since R is extended to Jamaica Center this weekend, there is good chance that I will see a lot of R32 R trains; therefore, I decided to go to NYC by Amtrak yesterday to see these R32 R trains and take this great opportunity to videotape along the R line because most of the time R trains are mostly R46s.
After arriving at Penn Station, I went to Grand Central to get the January 2001 version of the Map. I was disappointed to see these maps are multi-lingual versions. I thought the original version of the Map would come first.
Then I board an #6 train to 59th Street to transfer to a Queens-bound R train. I was somewhat disappointed to see it was an R46 train. However, when I looked outside, there were indeed a lot of R32 R trains. I was surprised that R46 R trains are more than I thought. I estimated that ratio between R46 R trains and R32 R trains is nearly 4:5.
Since I have already videotaped E train, there was no need for me to start from Jamaica Center. Therefore, I hopped to an R32 R train at Sutphin Blvd and began my roundtrip of videotaping.
It took three hours to finish an R train roundtrip. It was very tiring. However, without the G.O., I have much less chance to board an R32 R train, let alone videotaping along the R line.
But my return trip back to Maryland is a painful one. My train--Acela Regional Train #167, had mechanical problems at Pelham Bay. This train is supposed to leave NY Penn at 8:30 PM. My train did not leave Penn Station until 11:22 PM. I arrived at New Carrollton at 2:30 AM. Three hours late! I have to write a letter to Amtrak to request for Service Guarantee Certificate to get part of my money back.
Chaohwa
I didn't even get the chance to go railfanning this weekend. Looks like you had pretty much the luck I had last weekend, there were alot of R46 R trains around.
I was really scared that there were a lot of R46 R trains yesterday. That is part of the reason that when I saw an R32 R train at Sutphin Blvd, I hopped on that train to begin my camcording.
Chaohwa
I picked up a non-multilingual Jan. 2001 map last week at Grand Central. They must have run out.
Witch Part Of Grand Central you got the Map From?
Now that is a dedicated fan. Traveling from Maryland to NYC to go railfanning? God Bless!
aeticle in L A Times Richard Kiley in London
>>http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/20010204/t000010489.html<<
After reading some of the Dual Contracts, the proposed lines from those times in the past look like they could be useful to the rest of us out here. Guys, is there any flicker of hope that some consideration would be given to any of the poposed lines mentioned in the contracts, besides the Second Ave. line, which is still being talked about ad nauseaum? I get that old funny feeling that some day after the rest of us are just distant memories, some political whiz would discover the contracts and make a name for himself. If any of them are viable, which ones show the most promise?
The Dual Contracts were completed, there is nothing left to be built.
The Second Avenue Subway was not part of the Dual Contracts System.
He must be talking about the IND second system. Dual contracts. Second system. He's slightly confused.
You are right, the second system. Are there any viable proposals in the second system which may eventually see reality?
Only the Second Avenue Subway survives.
Maybe a long time down the line, some of those Queens and Brooklyn lines will see the light of day, like a Utica Avenue Subway and Nostrand Avenue Subway extension, and an extension of the Queens Boulevard Line along Hillside Avenue
Well, I can dream, I guess. Maybe my great grandkids will see that, but I doubt I ever will. An extension of the Queens Blvd. line to Springfield Blvd - was that actually proposed? There is a large plaza in that area which almost screams for that kind of development.
What about any proposed lines to the Nassau County line? I believe that it would compete with the LIRR, but both the subways and the LIRR are run by the same agency, so where is the conflict? The main objective should be to move commuters to and from work as quickly as possible to alleviate traffic on the roads. Hope the decision makers get the point of that.
An extension of the Queens Blvd. line to Springfield Blvd - was that actually proposed?
Not via Queens Blvd, but via Liberty Avenue. From my History of the IND:
The Liberty Avenue Line: Extension of the Fulton Street line, then under construction, from Eastern Pkwy/Broadway Junction along Liberty Avenue to about Wyona Avenue, then along the BMT Liberty Avenue El from Grant Avenue to Lefferts Blvd (which would have been "recaptured"). It would continue via Brinckerhoff Avenue and Hollis Avenues all the way to Springfield Blvd., a distance of 8.5 miles. The line would have run as a 4 track subway to Grant Ave, 3 track elevated to 180th St., and 2 track elevated to Springfield Blvd. There would have been a short 2-track spur running along 180th St. and then Jamaica Avenue to connect to the end of the Jamaica El at 168th St. In addition, there would also be a connection to the proposed Hulban storage yard.
In 1939, a proposal had the IND Queens Blvd line extended eastward, first to 184th Street, then to 212th Street as a 4-track subway, finally to Hillside Avenue and Little Neck Parkway as a 2-track subway.
--Mark
Great re-cap. I was salivating as I read through the could have beens.
You saw some of the BMT ones, too?
--Mark
I still have hope for the Local tracks heading north out of 57th and 7th under Central Park. I beleive they were to go to Morningside Heights.
I'd be satisfied if they went as far as the layup track on CPW between 76nd and 81st. Coming up from a fly under, then having the option to serve the Express of Local tracks. It would give the 6th, B'way and 8th a pot full of flexibility .
avid
I take it that there is not even a snowball's chances in hell for those plans to ever become reality.
They'll get built right after NYC becomes part of New Jersey.
Actually, it is not a confusing question at all.
There were routes planned and never built, or provisions for same, during the era of the Dual Contracts, both before and after, and these completely preceded the IND. For example:
the L line, elevated under Brooklyn from Montrose Ave until Bushwick - Aberdeen (not counting the area around Wilson Ave) was originally intended to be elevated. It took years to decide on the actual route. In fact there is a small area along the L line that curves in anticipation of this elevated link that was never built, but was mostly obscured by then-current construction of today's route.
The bellmouths south of Whitehall Street that people constantly mistake for a planned route to Staten Island, were built in anticipation of a line to Atlantic Ave in Brooklyn.
There are very short instances of tunnel just north of the closed Myrtle Ave station in Brooklyn for an anticipated loop to reverse trains not heading to Manhattan.
There was a plan to have a BMT Crosstown Line that would have continued north of today's Franklin Ave shuttle to the elevated Queensboro Plaza station, which was originally built to accommodate this connection. Any such evidence was removed when the northern portion of this originally 8 track structure was torn down.
The 4th Avenue subway south of 59th Street was built to allow expansion to 4 tracks.
The bellmouths just west of the Canal St bridge station (Sea Beach) were built in an anticipation of a crosstown route under Canal Street.
Chambers Street's westernmost tracks (the ones nearest to the Lexington Ave line) were originally built to connect to the Brooklyn Bridge. (Imagine if that really happened .... we might have been able to railfan an R-40 slant across the Brooklyn Bridge!!)
Finally, there was also a proposal for a crosstown Queens route, sometimes called the Queens Parkway Line, where most of the line would have been in an open cut surrounded by parklands on each side, and it would have run nearly all the way to the Nassau county border. If memory serves me right, this was dated approximately 1922.
(As an aside, I'm nearly done with the first installment of the BRT/BMT's history before 1913 for this site; this is info I learned while focusing on this first installment, which will cover 1878 (the Brooklyn, Bath & Coney Island Railroad) to just before the Dual Contracts in 1913.)
It would seem that there were some forward thinking engineers at that time, too. The IND wasn't so unique, after all, in their planning for later construction, though they DID do it to a much more considerable extent than the other companies.
--Mark
I have a 1947 subway map ... more has gone away then has been added in the big city :-(
Mr t
All,
I would like to send out the letter early in the week. If you want to sign it please let me know by Monday 5pm at the latest because I will print it out at work.
To read it, go here: Message 190923
-Dave
Is it true that electric buses cant use snow chains, and have problems in the snow? If so, what do they do instead?
I don't know but I'd bet you that if they can't use snow chains on electric buses they would have to use diesel powered buses instead.
BMTJeff
Having never seen an electric bus, I can't say. But they have them in some cities that get nasty weather, so I think we can assume they have no greater problems than diesel buses.
-Hank
I also wish to add that electric buses don't produce nasty fumes unlike diesel buses. As a matter of fact they don't produce any fumes. However the power plants that produce the energy cause their own problems such as diesel fumes in some cases but at least they're not going into peoples faces.
BMTJeff
Having never seen an electric bus
You're less likely to hear one than see one. They're almost silent.
I've decided to make the move from Philly to NY some time this summer. Any suggestions on affordable, transit-friendly neighborhoods? I was thinking Sunnyside, Greenpoint, etc.
Investigate:
College Point, Astoria, Roosevelt Island (esp. with the new 63rd St service coming on-line), Forest Hills/Kew Gardens. Also, parts of Manhattan above Central Park have started gentrifying and there are some great deals available with good safety in the 110's, 120's even 130's and 140's (streetwise) in Manhattan.
If you don't mind riding LIRR, then Bayside/Oakland Gardens offers 800 acres of parkland, access to a jogging trail going along the Bay, a wetlands preserve, a lake with fish, turtles, cormorants, nesting swans and Mallards, and LIRR and very good bus service going anywhere you want.
Also: Jersey City - the Newport Center area has very nice high-rise housing around the corner from Pavonia PATH station and NJ Transit's new light rail.
I have not included an exhaustive list. There are many other places.
I actually plan on coming to NYC to live there in about 2 and 1/2 years. I want to attend NYU and I will most likely be living on campus. But it's after college that I'm worried about as I know that NYC's cost of living is VERY high. I've heard one bedrooms in a decent area can go for 900 dollars a month, while in Houston that much will get you a three bedroom in some of our best areas with all the good amenities. So I want to know if there are any affordable places preferably in Manhattan where I can go?
For $900 you'd hardly find anything decent.
Arti
First of all, if you are talking about your own apartment as a single person, you're talking about living large. I moved to Kingsbridge/Bronx with three roomate/friends in 1984, and you'll have to consider doing the same. When I was in graduate school, I lived in an apartment with three foreigners, in New Jersey.
Second, you are trading off commute time, price, and crime rate. Crime is down, so if you are (or don't mind living with) Afro-Americans and Latinos, there are some places to go. I'd suggest apartment buildings in Midwood (D, Q) and Bay Ridge (R), and two-families in Sunset Park (N/R) in Brooklyn, the big apartment buildings on (but not off) the Grand Concourse (B/D), Mosholu Parkway (4), and Pelham Parkway (2/5), along with a variety of buildings in Kingsbridge (1/9) and Kingsbridge Heights/Norwood (4/D), in the Bronx. The Stuyvesant Heights Section of Bed-Stuy (A/C) is absolutely beautiful, though the commercial street is not great. In Queens, I'd try Ridgewood (M) and Woodhaven (J/Z).
None of these are Greenwich Village, but if you have to ask, you can't afford it. I'd recommend my own neighborhood (Windsor Terrace) in Brooklyn or Washington Heights (up on the hill near the A/C) and Inwood in northern Manhattan, but it might be too late.
Larry, you left out the fact that Prospect Heights (the other side of Grand Army Plaza) is getting a serious make-over, particularly Washington Ave. There might be some affordable apartments still available there. And of course, Williamsburg might have some things in the 'student price range'.
BMTman
[. I moved to Kingsbridge/Bronx with three roomate/friends in 1984, and you'll have to consider doing the same]
Absolutely not! You probably wanted to respond to the poster I responded to. I have no plans of moving and would not consider moving out of Manhattan and I enjoy not sharing my apartment.
Arti
When I was in the Bronx last year I took a shine to the area around Middletown Road on Pelham line, or Buhre, etc. Middletown isn't far from an area of 2 and 3 family homes and from the ads my sister has sent me the rents aren't out of line with NYC pricing. Not too congested, etc.
I've heard one bedrooms in a decent area can go for 900 dollars a month
Try $2000.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think its fairly obvious we have allowed our bought-and-paid for elected officials to effectively sell out what progress we had made in the Rent-Control area, lock stock and barrel to the rich landlord interests. Desperate times call for desperate measures, is it maybe time for us to basically nationalize NYC moderate income housing via emminent domain seizures or to at the very least, pass rent rate cap laws in an effort to make NYC and then esp. Manhattan Housing affordable to ALL of the masses once again?!! I think the time is now! Peace, and power to the people, Thomas:/
P.S.BTW- Before voting for ANYONE in November, be sure to check out their actual VOTING RECORD on rent control/housing issues, and not merely listen to the lip-service they all seem to invariably pay to tenants immediately prior to election time.
Man I agree! Well said! (applause)
Even as a conservative I find nothing wrong in what has been said. In fact, I think some of those landlords are nothing but bloodsuckers to begin with. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't rent a lot cheaper in some of the better neighborhood apartment houses in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx? It seems most people want to live in Manhattan because of its proximity to employment and entertainment, but with such great public transportation in New York, wouldn't it be better if they tried to housing in one of the outer boroughs where rent is much lower?
(However, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't rent a lot cheaper in some of the better neighborhood apartment houses in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx? It seems most people want to live in Manhattan because of its proximity to employment and entertainment, but with such great public transportation in New York, wouldn't it be better if they tried to housing in one of the outer boroughs where rent is much lower?)
New York is expensive for bigots and snobs. The bigots want to live in areas that are predominatly, if not exclusively, native-born White. The snobs want to live in areas that are predominantly, if not exclusively, college-educated. Those places are expensive. Others are not.
The bigots have been moving out. The snobs suck it up and pay, because what are they going to do, move to Tulsa?
That's a unique take on it, but if you're correct, then well said.
Shhhh! Don't let the secret out. Let the newcomers to NY pay through the nose for Manhattan. We wouldn't want them flowing into Brooklyn, would we?
No, we wouldn't. But only because they are stupid and lazy in the first place. I'm glad you've seen the big picture. You mean to tell me that saving three to five hundred dollars a month isn't worth riding the subway to your place of employment or your chosen place of entertainment? Believe me Philly Guy, if I had to move to the Big Apple, there is no way in hell I'd pay those exhorbitant rents just to live in Manhattan. Besides, it would give me the pleasure of riding the subway. Save money and ride the rails. What more can you ask?
It seems most people want to live in Manhattan because of its proximity to employment and entertainment, but with such great public transportation in New York, wouldn't it be better if they tried to housing in one of the outer boroughs where rent is much lower?
It's all a matter of one's priorities. Some people have to live in Manhattan, the outer boroughs being totally out of the question, and therefore they'll end up paying a lot. Other people will accept the outer borough, and will pay less. Which is no different than the sort of trade-offs people make all the time. If you simply have to have a Playstation 2, you'll pay a premium, both for the system (assuming you can find one) and the games. But if a regular Playstation, or a N64, suits your needs, you'll find some terrific bargains. Housing in NYC is really no different, nor should it be.
Well, except for the market-externalities of rent-controlled housing, which I don't understand other than "you need to know somebody."
Not to mention the fact that some people would cross the River Styx before crossing the River East (or Hudson or :::gasp::: Harlem).
I'd rather cross the River Harlem than cross the city limits into (gasp) Suburbia!
I guess this is already off topic, so I needn't mention it, but:
Before they blasted the boulder between Spuytin Duivil Creek and the Harlem River, did one enter the Hudson and the other enter the East River? I.e. was Manhattan not really an island? Or was there always a waterway from the Hudson to LI Sound along the Harlem River?
I guess this is already off topic, so I needn't mention it, but:
Before they blasted the boulder between Spuytin Duivil Creek and the Harlem River, did one enter the Hudson and the other enter the East River? I.e. was Manhattan not really an island? Or was there always a waterway from the Hudson to LI Sound along the Harlem River?
Manhattan's always been an island. Years ago, however, the Harlem River was barely a river at all in spots, more like a narrow creek.
There is a map available of the original Spuyten Duyvil Creek at brorson.org. The person who runs that site sometimes posts here as Upper Manhattanite.
The site is currently unavailable., but check later (the 1902 Manhattan map).
I just checked in the book "Metropolis" which said that the Philly actor Edwin Forrest (of Walnut St.'s Forrest Theatre, oldest in the nation) established a villa in Riverdale.
Hi --
Since I was mentioned here, I might as well say "hello"!
About the web site: My buddy used to host it for free on a Red Hat machine which he also used to run his business. Unfortunately, a hacker broke into his system and used to to launch attacks on other machines. Because of this, his ISP cut his machine off the net. AAAAARRGH!!
My buddy moved his web pages over to a commercial web hosting service. Since the brorson.org site is a hobby for me, I don't want to shell out big-time money to host it. Therefore, I haven't put the pages on a commercial server. Instead, I continue to bug my buddy to get his machine back onto the web so I can use it for free. As soon as he is back on-line, the maps & neighborhood photos will reappear, and I will post a message here about their return. Meanwhile, I have a new set of photos of Art Deco apartment buildings on the Grand Concourse, as well as an 1865 map of Upper Manhattan, which will also appear on the site when it comes up.
On the subject of NY maps, there is a cool site of old NY maps at:
http://docs.unh.edu/nhtopos/NewYorkList.htm
One of the maps there shows the Manhattan ship canal in 1895, after it was dredged out, but before Marble Hill was attached to the mainland. It is at:
http://docs.unh.edu/NY/harl24sw.jpg
It's kinda big, but is high-res, so it's worth it. The original water between Manhattan and the Bronx is shown clearly running around Marble Hill to the north.
Finally, here is a link to an article about Marble Hill & the construction of the ship canal:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bb/oldstuff/bb0313.15.html
Thanks to David Chesler for pointing me to these references.
Stuart
I know what it's like to lose access to a web host, and I know that the free services are a shoddy alternative.
That's why the chat website is no longer available. Nobody ever took up my offer to schedule an IRC ONLY chat.
I'm sure that at some point somebody will notice that the link on top of the Subtalk index leads nowhere.
Why not use an affiliate such as clubs.yahoo.com for chats? Just a suggestion.
Because I want a chat interface that supports IRC. JPilot did that.
I never used it myself, and whenever I tried to convince people to come to chat using an IRC client, they just said "I'll download it later."
I downloaded it, installed it, etc., but come 8 o'clock on Saturday, no one was there.
It's not advertised, I tried.
If I can get at least three other people to agree to be there tonight at 8, then we can get somewhere.
$900? Why would you want to live in a pothole?
Spend a few thousand and get yourself a nice telephone booth.
One of my father's friends lives in a 1-bedroom on Perry St. in Greenwich Village. After a wind-knocking climb up seven flights of stairs, you walk in the door sideways. Once you're in, take 2 steps and you're in the bedroom. One step to the left and you're at the other end of the kitchen. 2 steps and you've just walked thru the wall. One step back and one to the left will take you to the bathroom. Toilet is a half-step to the right, the tub is a half-step to the left.
Unless you plan on getting some room mates or you have alot of money, you might want to reconsider moving to NY. First you will have to have a good paying job BEFORE you move here. You had mentioned $900. Is that your price range? You forget, besides rent, you need to pay for some utilities and food. Also, you want some spending money to go out once in a while. And school supplies is another expense. Bottom line. You will need at least $1500 a month just to survive. More to be comfortable.
BIG AL
PS: See, I monitor subtalk posts also.
IDK where your heard about a $900 apartment in the city but that is impossible unless it is a OOS Token Booth. The only place your getting an apartment is in Coney Island! What a great place to live 4 main trains run to Stillwell Ave (B/D/F/N), be in the city in an hour, one seat/train ride. And you can always go to Nathan's and ride the roller coaster till you throw up your dogs! Sounds so fun I might move there with ya!
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" Bensonhurst is the place but only if your Italian!
Coney Island huh. well id ont think ugonna get anything there unless u apply for subsidized housing (Projects) its 30% of ur annual income for rent and the average wait is 3 yrs. I on the other hand live in kensington on Ocean Parkway in a one bedroom in a recently remodeled building and it has large rooms and even a smaller half bedroom. Great shopping F train a block away and D/Q train a 10 minute walk, and 2 bus routes. Pay $780 a month. clean building good neighbors
Say, Mike "Mr.Mass Transit,", wasn't SPIKE from Bensonhurst? :> Thomas
For $900, you could get a large two-bedroom apartment in Chicago in a nice neighborhood. (Or you could live like a god in a crappy neighborhood.) Hell, nice one-bedroom apartments in my own building in Edgewater are only $750 a month. And we're talking corner units on upper floors, with a view of the lake and a 24-hour doorman downstairs, four bus routes outside the door, and the Red Line "L" only two blocks away. I may even upgrade to a one-bedroom myself in a few months after I get some debts paid off.
There is more to life than a 212 area code on your phone number... New York is a great city, but no city is worth paying $2000 a month for some tiny, rat-infested hovel.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Sounds as if you're describing Edgewater Beach Plaza, if you say you board the el at Berwyn.
Well RTS, an average one bedroom apartment in a walk-up building will run you around $1800 to $2000 a month. Outrageous.
If you're looking to spend between $900 to $1000 a month on a one bedroom apartment, decent areas near subways include:
Bronx--Riverdale, Pelham Pkwy in Williamsbridge and Pelham Bay Park.
Brooklyn--Bensonhurst, Bay Ridge, Brighton Beach, Midwood
Queens--Kew Gardens, Rego Park, Astoria, Forest Hills ($1100 a month avg in FH. I should know as I apt. hunted a few mos. ago)
Manhattan--Nowhere decent.
Anything less than $900 in a decent area is not realistic unless you're willing to look for studio apartments. Even with that reduction you're looking at $1400+ in Manhattan.
Gee and I complained that my rent just went over $600 for three rooms but that is rent stableized. GR&D
Good Lord, that's alot of money! Since I plan to major in finance, and I hope to land a nice 55,000 dollar a year (it's possible) job, what can I get?
Well lets see, $55,000 minus 1/3rd for taxes leaves $36,850. An apartment costing $1500 a month would eat up half of your take home pay.
It all depends if you are steadfast in residing by yourself (girlfriend included), or you're willing to live with a roommate(s) to share the costs. By living with a roommate(s), you can live in the middle of Manhattan in the trendiest areas, but your privacy goes to pot and you risk having to live with the "roommate from hell".
I strongly suggest Queens. The rents are reasonable and there are some very nice neighborhoods here (I live in Queens as well). Forest Hills is a very trendy area with rents that aren't too bad ($1100 a month for a 1 bedroom apt), many stores and excellent movie theaters and excellent public transportation with the E,F express trains and the G,R local trains serving the area. FH over the past few years has turned into a mini-Manhattan. And Kew Gardens which is right next to FH is very nice as well. And a car in FH/KG is not necessary.
When you go to NYU, you'll have plenty of time to "case the joint". Most people that go to NYU usually want to stay in Greenwich Village where the school is located, only problem is that it's extremely expensive there with one bedroom apartments averaging about $2200 a month.
Click on the link below to connect you with the NY Times real estate section to give you a faint idea as to what you'll be up against.
NY Times apartment listings
you can live in the middle of Manhattan in the trendiest areas, but your privacy goes to pot and you risk having to live with the "roommate from hell".
Or that roommate could be your wife/live-in girlfriend, and you have a nice DINK family.
DINK=Double Income, No Kids, The American Dream.
Well I'm currently a DINK. At least for the next two years anyway.
Or that roommate could be your wife/live-in girlfriend, and you have a nice DINK family.
DINK=Double Income, No Kids, The American Dream.
In your case, Pork, wouldn't it be DINP (Double Income, No Piglets)?
Hey stud, I hates ta bust ya bubble, but many TOs in NYCTA make more than that, and their job did not even require 4+ years of College pulling all nighters and whatnot. BTW- $55K/yr.MIGHT just barely buy you modest shelter and groceries-hope you plans to move to a nudist colony in NYC!!! :>Peace and Free Love For All,Thomas the Bubble Busta
I just threw out 55,000 because I didn't want to sound ridiculous. I did anyway. Let's say 85,000 dollars. I know that's possible for a 23 yr old male.
At least 6 figures would be more like it for finance and if you're from a top school.
At least 6 figures would be more like it for finance and if you're from a top school.
The school means nothing once you have a few years of experience.
Investigate:
College Point
????
College Point may be a decent enough 'hood, but it's pretty remote from transit.
Decent bus service, though. OK, not at the top of the list.
I don't think Sunnyside and Greenpoint are that great in the safety and accesibility department.
Anywhere in the Queens Blvd corridor east of Woodside is good. In Queens I'd have to say Elmhurst and Rego Park have great subway/bus access, especially with the 63rd street line coming on.
Also there's plenty of shopping close by, as well as nice Chinese business district in Elmhurst.
Bayside and College point are further away from the subway, and you have to go through Flushing, which is not the best of neighborhoods.
Manhattan is probably expensive in most parts. I think Elmhurst and Rego Park are nice areas, well they are the only part of Queens I like. Bayside is good too, but I think it's a bit pricey.
Flushing is actually not bad. Of course "bad" is in the eye of the beholder. It's a combination of neighborhood realities and your own social skills.
Well, my Mandarin isn't that good, and I don't know any Cantonese, but I can get by in Turkish and Kweyol, and I speak Spanish.
That's pretty good! I'm tri-lingual myself. My parents speak and write 6 languages between them.
My grandfather spoke 6 languages fluently and knew smatterings of several others.
Let me guess:
Lithuanian, Polish, Russian, German, English, Yiddish.
Was I close?
Arti
I can get by in Turkish and Kweyol, and I speak Spanish.
Kweyol?
What they speak in Haiti.
Bayside and College point are further away from the subway, and you have to go through Flushing, which is not the best of neighborhoods.
Heh heh, I just knew you'd have to mention Sodom and Gomorrah, aka Flushing.
Get a life!
I just made a contradiction. Actually Bayside is nice too, you have good express bus service to NYC, as well as the LIRR so you don't have to bother with Flushing. Sorry.
But Bayside has nowhere near the great Chinese and Indian food you can get in Flushing.
phillyguy, you might want to try Brooklyn's next "trendy" neighborhood, Prospect Heights, before it gets "too pricey". Prospect Heights is adjacent to the "cultural hub" of Brooklyn -- Grand Army Plaza. Within walking distance is the Brooklyn Museum of Art, Botanic Gardens, and the Brooklyn Public Library (main branch with LOTS of old books on Brooklyn rapid transit).
Rail transportation in the neighborhood is provided by the Franklin Avenue Shuttle (which connects both the A/C with the Brighton Line D/Q trains), and the IRT 2/3/4 and 5 trains. Actually, it's a very transit-friendly neighborhood, that is also served by a number of bus lines as well.
Good luck in apartment hunting!
BMTman
I made that point in a previous post. It seems there are areas that charge a lot less rent that are in nice neighborhoods and very close to transportation facilities. Why is such a demand to live in Manhattan when prices for a decent apartment are going through the roof. It would seem to be a little commute by subway would be worth the time and effort for the amount of money one could save on renting an apartment. I know if I moved to New York I would certainly live in one of the outer boroughs. Besides, it would give me a good reason to ride the rails. That's part of the fun of living in New York anyway.
Ok Fred, there are plenty of Vacent Apts around 3rd Ave between 138-161st Sts in the Bronx.
Right Bob, just my type of place. You can also tell me where I can get a gun real cheap, too, I suppose. When was the last time you were in the South Bronx? What a hellhole! How can people live in such an environment. Oh Oh, here come the thought police getting on my case about me bagging about the Bronx, even though it's the South Bronx and I'm on target about it. See pal, if all hell breaks loose now, it's your fault because you brought it up first.
Well people do manage even though it's really rough there.
Besides there aren't too many light complexioned individuals residing in that particular area.
Whether they are light or dark, it makes no difference. The place is rat infested and that is no way to live. I'm amazed the city has not undertaken a real rat abatement program. You can live in housing that is not toop notch, but there is no rhyme or reason to have to put up with vermin. Yuk!!!!!!
The last time I was in the South Bronx was Nov 2, 2000, drove thru to Yankee Stadium to pick up World Series Stuff, you ought to know, you have a few items. That was the day I finally visited all 5 boros in 1 hour., came across the 1st Ave Bridge from Harlem, or was it the 3rd Ave Bridge.
Willis Avenue Bridge goes northbound, Third Avenue Bridge goes southbound.
So you used the Willis Avenue Bridge.
The answer man answerith. Pork, you a wealth of information. I hope you don't have a "know it all personallity."
Yes sir, and you can be assured that World Series shirt is getting plenty of action in our salubrious climate. It is a beautiful shirt and I love it. You stand tall with me even though you're a Yankee fan. But in all seriousness, how can anyone cope with living in such an environment. I don't think I could.
Aren't we lucky we don't have to!
You can cross over, see how the other side of the track lives, then come back to your posh place and live to talk about it.
I sure find myself lucky and appreciate what I have.
Ahhhhhh nothing like the greater NYC area!!!
Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, nothing like sunny Southern California either.
true, like South Central. Yesssssir!!!
Ok, we have South Central. Any others? Well, you have Bed-Sty, the South Bronx, Harlem, East Harlem, East NY, Williamsburg, etc. Shall I go on. Come on, why didn't you mention Coronado, Laguna Beach, Malibu, Santa Barbara, Venice, Santa Monica, Dana Point, and my beautiful Arcadia? Anyway, you have a great day.
Why not you live in LA, birth place of the drive by shooting
South Bronx? What a hellhole!
HAHA!
Like anything else in life, it's all in perspective!
If you think it's a hellhole in today's standars, You didn't see it 20 years ago. Today's Bronx is the Donald Trump, Disneyfied Bronx. Thank God for community organizations like "SEBCO and BANANA KELLY" who put their blood sweat and tears in local Bronx communities.If you want to see what you missed back then and realise how "beautifull" eye of the beholder" the Bronx is today, get a movie called Wild Styles. Vintage subway shots with an urban landscape of unimaginable destruction and blight. That described "HELLHOLE"!! Not what we are seeing today.
Like Harlem, the South Bronx is gentrifying itself. Great spots for cheap rents, subway ride to midtown. Don't wait too long Mickey Mouse is taking over, then it's going to cost a shit load to rent.
Where exactly in the South Bronx is this? I plan on visiting the Bronx when I get into New York on March 30, and try one of those Italian restaurants they say they have around Morris Avenue or thereabouts. I would love to see the "new and improved" SB. What I saw last summer on my short visit there was not what I would call very improved. And where the hell are those good Italian restaurants I heard of located anyway?
The good Italian restaurants are on Arthur Av in the Belmont section.
Thank you zman 179, but your job is only half finished. Tell how to get there and I'll write it down and know where the hell I'm going when I get into town.
Well again if you compare to last summer and this was your first visit, you have no barometer of how bad the Bronx was and how far it has come.
Before you come down, rent the movie Fort Apache the Bronx with Paul Newman.
Wild Styles is another movie set on the Bronx landscape from 17 years ago. Bonefire of the Vanity has some shots of what the Bronx looked like when it was down and out. Compared to these settings, today's gentrified Bronx sure is looking up.
Keep in perspective we are talking about the South Bronx and not the Upper West side here. It has a long way to go, it does look pretty rough but as aforementioned it was much worst. Check those movies out and let me know what you think.
Later Marty.
BTW enjoy you visit when you come out East.
Thanks Marty. But I can tell you I'm going to explore the South Bronx for myself and try to see the improvement. I was there in 1974 and 1991 and 1999, and, so help me, I saw nothing different any of those times. It looked like a hovel each time.
Gee and I wonder WHY they're so many vacant apartments there???
Try Jersey City, NJ, specifically the area right around Grove Street Station. 24 hour train service to 33rd St. & World Trade Center. The neighborhood isn't "trendy" (like, for instance, Hoboken) so it should be affordable- $900 for a nice apt. isn't out of the question.
I think it all depends on where you end up working, e.g. I know a woman who works for the TA at 130 Livingston Plaza (downtown Brooklyn). She commutes from Forrest Hills & it take 1 1/2 hours, yuck. I work in Harlem for 11 years & took LIRR & 1/9, it took a little over an hour ... the good part was the 45 minutes on the LIRR where I got a lot of reading done ... but it was still a long day.
I also lived in Sunnyside at 40th Street on the #7 and went to 90 Church Street (across from City Hall). Trains were packed, but the commute was less then 45 minutes. Going to Harlem was better then City Hall because I was reverse commuting. I actually could do some railfaning because all my time wasn't spent trying to find a place to stand. If you can find a place convient to PATH, that's a nice trip in from NJ.
Also think of a Express Bus ride in from City border (Queens/Nassau). A nice trip and with the $120 Unlimited MC it brings the cost down.
Well, just a few ideas ....
Mr t__:^)
Once again the Oaks Model RR club has posted railfan video clips on their website. This update inclouded 4 DIVIX format movies of SEPTA PCC cars. You can find them here: http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Septa_movies.html
FYI a Divix movie has a .avi extention and used Mp4 compression and works with Windows Media player. However you have to download the codecs for it somewhere on the web.
Actually, its DivX, and its MPEG4 not MP4. MP3 is actually MPEG 1 Layer 3 audio.
DivX is not a pronouncable word and stop nitpicking.
Im not nitpicking. Its what its called. There is no such thing as DIVIX. Im sure if someone incorrectly said that they saw a R-68 running on the 3 line, someone would point out that R-68 do not run on IRT lines. Its Pronounced "div-ix", but it is spelt DivX (The older version was DivX ;-), but the newer version is OpenDivX).
And then three years ago there was Circuit City's DivX.
Thank god that failed.
-Hank
Im sure if someone incorrectly said that they saw a R-68 running on the 3 line, someone would point out that R-68 do not run on IRT lines.
Only in the movies :)
--Mark
I just got another roll of film back. This one is dated from the day before Thanksgiving to Jan 6th. I have posted the better photos online for you all to see. After all, even a blind man can hit fish in a barrel if he shoots enough. FYI I have posted a picture of my CAR!
These first 2 photos are from Jan 6th and are of the PRR position light signals at CP-WOODBURY set in a wonderful snowscape. One signal has been recently painted, the other could use a fresh coat.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/Woodbury-SnowPL-1.jpg
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/Woodbury-SnowPL-2.jpg
The next shot was taken on the day before Thanksgiving when I was out documenting the PRR PL signals guarding the former Delanco Movable Bridge which is being replaced for a useless Light Rail line (Dam you "progress"!) The home signals were gone but the distants Y110 and Y131 were not so I drove out there and managed to work in a shot of my wonderful 1969 Ford Mustang Convertable w/ a 302 V-8
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/sm-Y131+mustang.jpg
These next two photos were taken on my Amtrak trip home on Decembre 20 at the New Haven station. The first one was the best photo in the lot and its of a snow covered F40, sitting next to a Phaze I AEM-7 at the new engine terminal with a CDoT GP-40 peeking out behind the AEM. The other pic is just your typical Metro North MU train.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/NH50.jpg
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/NH52.jpg
Finally I have a pic taken during my thrilling rear vestabule ride on an Amtrak Keystone train. Its a pic of the former NASSAU interlocking w/ a signal bridge and part of the P Jct. platform.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/NASSAU-2.jpg
a shot of my wonderful 1969 Ford Mustang Convertable w/ a 302 V-8
Makes me miss mine that much more (sniff!) - mine was a very bright medium green, white top and interior, regular hubcaps on green wheels, 302, automatic - I drove it through a cement retaining wall and into a power pole trying (successfully) to avoid an elderly pedestrian back in February 1975.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mike, Saved a copy of the M-N Cosmopolitian for my own use, thanks for sharing.
Mr t__:^)
it had been a tense day, this first day that the #6 line had all service provided by the new r142a's...
mta officials were all over the place, breathing down everyone's neck...
by 9pm, things had quieted down in the grand central tower... caz dolowicz and frank correll finally got a chance to relax and talk about the good old days, when their biggest problem was thwarting train hijackers...
one of the tower operators noted that pelham 1954 had been sitting in the 28th street station for a couple of minutes...
caz got on the radio and yelled:
"PELHAM 1954... WHY ARE YOU SITTING IN 28TH STREET???"
a moment later, a voice came over the radio
"grand central... this is pelham 1954... my conductor is having trouble closing up... some of the doors won't close...he's checking to see which cars are affected"
when frank heard the report, he exploded... he said to caz:
" i wish they never bought those ******* cars... or if they had to buy them, they should have put them over on the west side, so that we wouldn't have to suffer with them. let those west side limousine liberals ride in them"
as he spoke, pelham 2001 came into grand central...
caz said to frank:
"i'm going to send pelham 2001 down the express track... there's no telling how long things will be ****** up at 28th street..."
caz got back on the radio as said:
"PELHAM 2001... THIS IS GRAND CENTRAL TOWER... BECAUSE OF A STALLED TRAIN AT 28TH STREET, WE'RE GOING TO RUN YOU DOWN THE EXPRESS TRACK... PLEASE MAKE AN ANNOUCEMENT TO THE CUSTOMERS ON YOUR TRAIN, THAT YOU WILL BE RUNNING EXPRESS TO 14TH STREET... ACKNOWLEDGE 2001"
dave arnold was the motorman on pelham 2001... he wasn't happy to hear of the change... he would have to screw around with the computer to get the annoucements right...
dave got on the radio and said:
"roger grand central... it'll just take me about 10 minutes to reprogram the computer so that the proper automatic announcements are made throughtout the train... do you copy??"
frank blew up when he heard that it would take 10 minutes to reprogram the computer... he grabbed the mike from caz and screamed:
"LISTEN PELHAM 2001... WE DON'T HAVE 10 MINUTES TO SCREW AROUND, WHILE YOU ADJUST THE COMPUTER... JUST SHUT THE COMPUTER DOWN, AND LET ME KNOW WHEN YOUR WHEELS ARE ROLLING..."
dave acknowledged grand central and was just about to shut the computer, when a voice came out of the console
dave was shocked at what he had heard... there had been all kinds of the problems with the 142a's, but nobody ever reported that the computer started talking to them... dave was about to report this to grand central tower, but realized that they would send him down for a psychiatric consult if he told them what happened...
instead dave said:
"i'm sorry hal, but if i don't shut you down, i won't be able to sit down for a month after they get through with me..."
just as he was about to switch off the computer, he heard:
time prohibits me from going on for another 2 hours...
clips from 2001 were obtained from the 2001 internet resource archive, which is loaded with great stuff... it's at
2001
LOL! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! YOU ARE THE KING OF CLEVER HEYPAUL!
Oy. Do you think shock therapy would help?
So, the next time I walk into the 23rd St. station at Park Ave. and I see an R-142 in the station with its PA on and a voice going "Daisy, Daisy give me your answer true..." as all the lights shut down, I'll know to expect a long delay and walk over to the Broadway line instead.
You guys have entirely too much time on you hands on the week-ends.
LOL Mr t__:^)
Great story! I liked the added sounds! Great job! :-)
While I almost never find myself on the G, I was in Greenpoint today and so thought I'd take the G to Court Square and switch to the F, forgetting this was a 63rd Street Tunnel Weekend. We had to get transfers (which closely resembled bus transfers of old) take the shuttle bus and then get on the R at Queens Plaza or F at 21st Street. To my surprise everything ran smoothly, with the shuttle bus pulling up just as I emerged on 23rd Street. But my question...
Why bother with transfer or a shuttle bus at all? Why not simply run the G to Queens Plaza, or any subsequent station where it could be turned around?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The whole reroute is necessary to replace the x crossover between the northbound express and local tracks just north of Queens Plaza. No incoming northbound train could use Queens Plaza if those 2 tracks are not in service.
I thought about this too. The R was running through at QP, so could the G right?
The trains cannot turn at the Plaza because the switches are out. You say: Why not 71st?
Well, 71/Continental tower is getting enlarged. During the weekends, with the R going to Parsons/Archer, this is a golden opportunity for them to do work because the tower need not be functional (no trains have to turn). Didn't you wonder why this weekend Fs were switching to/from express at Union Turnpike in both directions?
The G would have to turn at 179st or Parsons/Archer. That would require more crews (plus the G would need conductors).
I took the #2 to Flatbush Avenue yesterday to capture the parrots at Brooklyn College on film for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Why is President Street configured like an express station, with a center platform?
Kevin, those parrots are thriving out in Canarsie as well! (I believe it's the same species -- small green parrots that chirp constantly).
Apparently, they are able to survive the harsh climate changes of NYC by building their nests under and literally around ConEd power-pole transformers. These transformers create enough heat to allow the once former tropical birds to live through the cold winter months.
BTW, anyone know the story how they got to be in Brooklyn????
BMTman
These transformers create enough heat to allow the once former tropical birds to live through the cold winter months.
C'mon, Doug. The electromagnetic radiation from the transformers has mutated the former tropical birds into little green pigeons.
Thanks, chuchubob. No wonder they've conformed so easily to "city living"....;-)
BMTman
I believe the small green parrots we're referring to here are Quaker Parakeets. They are the only parrot species who build nests. Quakers are small parrots similar to Cockatiels but have heavier bodies. They're generally green with a pale gray on the forehead, cheeks, throat and extending down to the chest. Its native territory is extreme south eastern Brazil through Uruguay to north eastern Argentina. Most of the Quaker parrots you find around here in the "wild" are escaped pets. The find eachother somehow and form social groups.
If anyone has pictures of these parrots in the wild, so to speak from this area, I would like to see some :)
I study birds especially parrots as a side job :)
Shawn.
Shawn, contact me offline. I'll have to take you on a tour here in Canarsie... there are a few nests that aren't too hard to find.
There are a number of "urban myths" about these parrots coming to Brooklyn. The most common one is that they were being transported by jet to the US (I would suppose to a pet store) when the cage holding them broke open and they escaped. Another variation has a similar thing happening on a tracker trailer after an accident. Yet another scenerio has them making their way north from the tropics on their own because of our rather tame recent winters (not this one of course!).
A side effect of all this is that some local scientists are concerned that any native birds to our region could get chased out of the area from competition for food by these "newcomers". These parrots have infact become "native" to our region as they've been thriving here for close to two decades. Now that their population has grown significantly, they're being noticed.
I'm sure we'll hear more about this in the near future.
BMTman
Being a Quaker myself, I can attest that I have never seen a parrot attend with the Brooklyn Friends Meeting on Boerum & Schermerhorn or the 15th St meetinghouse on Rutherford Place.
They simply would not be able to stay quiet during meeting, and they would have to be eldered by some older, wiser Quakers.
PPS
Most likely to allow those who took the wrong train an easy way to cross over to the opposite side to get back to Franklin Ave. for trains to Utica and New Lots. No other Nostrand Ave. station has a free crossover between both directions.
I hardly think that station was designed with that intent in mind.
Maybe it has something to do with the weirdness with the tracks going back toward Franklin, how both manhattan-bound and Flatbush-bound trains share one track to merge into the main line?
PPS
The Manhattan- and Flatbush-bound trains don't share a track; the weird track-sharing around that area relates to the fact that all trains from to or from Flatbush need to pass over the local track just south of Franklin Ave., even if going express between Atlantic and Franklin.
subfan
Chris, there is a crossover at the station after President Street, which is Sterling Street. After Sterling, there are no crossovers until Flatbush Avenue.
Isn't there a crossover S. of Church Ave. Station?
Carl M.
Yup. Hence the timers entering Church on the southbound.
In terms of there being a switch on the roadbed, yes, as Alex stated.
In terms of crossing over to the northbound platform, no. After Sterling Street, all southbound platforms have exits only (except for those with MetroCard only entrances).
They all have entrances on the southbound side - during the AM rush, there are always people waiting for trains there. They ride to Flatbush and stay on the train, thereby guaranteeing themselves a seat for the ride into Manhattan.
I didn't know that. There goes that idea. Perhaps the location dictated an island platform, buildings in the way, yadda yadda yadda ...
Philadelphia Mayor Street was once IRT President?
Isn't he a bit too young for that? Isn't everybody a bit too young for that?
"Philadelphia Mayor Street was once IRT President?
Isn't he a bit too young for that? Isn't everybody a bit too young for that? "
What's worse is that apparently the poor man is configured like an express station. This Street fellow certainly has a number of problems to deal with.
B"H
why not?
Originall the Nostrand Ave. line wasn't connected to Eastern Parkway line ? Don't actually know the history, just the way an old map seem to look.
Mr t__:^)
If it wasn't connected to the Eastern Parkway line, where did it go?
[Originall the Nostrand Ave. line wasn't connected to Eastern Parkway line ? Don't actually know the history, just the way an old map seem to look.]
Thurston, seems you were looking at the map upside down -- that could explain how the Nostrand Ave. Line doesn't look connected to Eastern Parkway...;-)
BMTman
This weekend I went home via Amtrak to go Sking at Camelback Mt. in Tannersville PA. On the drive back to Middeltown CT I made a railfan stop at Port Morris NJ.
On Friday I had reservations on Amtrak Train #99, 12:11 out of New Haven, arriving 30th St. 3:27. I got to New Haven around 11:15 and bought a meatball sub at the Subway then headded out on to the S/B platform. As I finished my Sub I heard an odd diesel air horn blast and the sound of an old EMD 567 engine trying to rev up*. I looked through the windows of a MNRR commuter train and saw a New Haven 'NH' on a rounded nose. SCORE!! FL-9! I grabbed my stuff and ran to the far N/B platform (like track 8). I got up the stairs and saw 2 ConnDoT Fl-9's painted in New Haven colours pulling what looked like MNRR office cars. Well I noticed a crew person heading to the head end and ppl boarding the card and so I grabbed my camera and ran up the paltform. As I got there it revved up and began to pull away. I was taking pics as fast as my camera would take them. I got about 10-12 good ones.
My train arrived on time. There was an odd car on the end. It looked like a regular Amfleet, it had a pantograph, it had windows on the end blukhead and a windowed rear door. I was not sure if it had a control cab. It was named "Corridor Cruiser" or something like that. I took a pic, but can anyone ID it?
There was a TSR at catenary pole 785 on 25mph and the mispatcher was having to give every train a clearance form over the radio. I heard the dispatch giving the local before us the same form. I couldn;t hear that engineer, but I did hear the dispatcher say "Yes, you have to repeat back the whole thing." Who did that engineer think he was, a motorman?
Because track 3 was out of service b/t Bridgeport and Norwalk (MNRR needs a new crossover there) we were stuck behind the local and lost a few minutes. But due to schedual padding we were able to depart Penn on time. I also saw some LIRR trains w/ the blue side panneling.
The secaucas connection is comming along and I figured out what that new station between HUNTER and LANE on the NEC is for. Its the connection to the Newark Airport Mono-rail. That station is also coming along. My train arrived on time at 30th St. During the enitre trip they said the train was sold out, but nobody ever sat next to me or several other people in my car (lead car).
After my ski trip I wanted to stop by Port Morris NJ. I had been there about 5 years back and the former Jct. was a lazy MofW yard. I wanted a pic of the Port Morris tower. Well we get there and we find that NJT has like built a shop/yard complex there. There is an access road w/ like Employees Only signs, but my dad cited that it was 8 AM on a Sunday and nobody would care. We drove up and found a 6-7 track yard filled w/ diesel Push Pull sets. There was a shop complex, but the tower was away from that at the east end. We pull on to a dirt road that runs next to the yard where they store all the ties and run to where I can get out to run over to the tower (which ironically is off NJT property). I unloaded my camera at the tower and the yard and we then left. My dad was right, if anybdy had been there they didn't care.
There is nothing like the sound of the EMD 567 diesel, is there?
I wish there were more of them still around!
It reminds me of a lawnmower. I forgot to continue the * I put after the sentence.
* Inquire about my great immitation of an EMD 567 engine.
Oh-Oh, I take it that you don't have the same fond feelng for the 567 that I do!
Thirty years ago we had nothing but F's, GP-7's and GP-9's from Western Maryland around here, and the sound was music to my ears.
Well I haven't been around many running Geeps, but I think that the F's have a special sound due to the carbody.
GP7's are the sound of heaven alcojunk is fashionable to foamers and sounds like it is ready to fall apart The marketplace spoke over 30 years ago NO MORE ALCOS. EMD RULES POUR TOUJOURS!
You can get a bus (#12 or #24) on Broad Street in Newark that will drop you off a short block from WAVE, where the new station is located. The street dead ends at the tracks without a fence or other barrier. If you were that stupid, you could actually walk right out onto the tracks. A great spot for track-side fotos from a public street.
I've heard you can get off the J at Norwood and walk south.
I've also heard that you can get off the A at Euclid and walk east.
That sounds like two different locations to me.
From previous posts I had formed the impression that it was located somewhere on Milford St, south of Atlantic Ave.
Just where the devil is it located?
WHAT exactly is this "transit tech"? And does anyone having attended it give one preference with or make one more competitive to being hired on at NYCT? Do tell! Peace, Thomas:>
I think it is a transit oriented technical high school, but I'm not sure. I haven't lived in the city for years, and I am having problems finding out exactly where it is located.
Transit Tech, otherwise known as East New York High School of Transit Technmology, specializes in how trains and buses operate, computer design, computer programming, and computer repair. I guess it's the only school in NYC affiliated with the MTA....
Are there any schools that specialize in transportation?
I heard Jane Addams does....
http://home.con2.com/transit is transit tech's webpage.
Thanks guys, for the info! Thomas:>
umm the way I got there was by taking the A up to Euclid Ave. so you DO have to walk east 2 blocks off of Euclid ave then walk up this hill, full of traffic. ( I wonder how the students deal with so much traffic....) You'll see the words EAST NEW YORK HIGH SCHOOL OF TRANSIT TECHNOLOGY on top of this big building to the right of this hill.
If you walked two blocks east of Euclid, you should have been at Crescent St and Pitkin Ave.
I'm more confused now than before. Could you have possibly walked west toward Chestnut or Crystal?
let's see.....Wells st. is where Transit Tech resides...
walk up towards crystal street, hang a right. check out mapquest...
1 wells st
brooklyn, NY 11208
Thank You! I know exactly where it is now. I can't believe that I came within three blocks of the school, and didn't know it was there. Of course, that was fifty years ago and maybe the school or Wells St were not there back then.
Mapquest is a neat site. I did not know about it and had never used it before, but will be using it in the future!
Thanks!
I don't think Joe Korman posts here regularly, so you might want to follow this link for a rundown of the post Manhattan switcheroo and 63rd car assignments. Joe said on the news group nyc.transit:
"I came across a proposal dated 8/2000 for the summer 2001 service
changes. I converted it to HTML and posted it[...]"
Looks like the G and the N get the biggest changes, with the R-42s making their triumphant (?) return to the Sea Beach line while the V gets the R-46s, the G runs the R-68s out of CI and the W takes over the B's Southern Division fleet.
One Time In The Summer Of 2000. I Went On A R-42 N Line. So That Means That I Will See R-42 On The N Line Again. The R-68's that was going to run the G Line Might Be Sent To Jamaica train yard
In Kew Gardens. That's Near By My House.
Not going to happen. The V will base its fleet out of Jamacia so the G will move to CI.
Some of the R68 cars to be used on the G could be stored at Jamaica Yard and at Continental Av. It all depends on how the work programs are set up. If the R68's are stored at JYD, they won't be touched for maintenance purposes unless it's a quickie like changing a window, etc.
I like the R42s. It will be nice to see them in Northern Queens
:-) Andrew
Where are they coming from? The R143 is far away from being delivered in numbers, and certainly not in time for the V line innauguration in August.
One train of R42s from the M, one from the J...and I am taking a shot at thinking a lot of spares from ENY will be given over to Coney Island.
Why don't they take the slant 40's from the ?
Cause Wayne won't let them go. lol
Why? Confinement to the eastern division keeps these speed demons from showing their stuff ....
Well you only have 40 or so Slants out of ENY anyway. The rest are out of Coney.
This list isn't written in stone you know. The list says that the entire R40M fleet will work the J/M. These cars will continue to see service on the L and M since all those lines come under the auspices of East New York Yard.
Interesting things on the list:
The Grand St Shuttle will use R46's.
The Franklin Shuttle will actually use 6 R68's. A two car spare train is always kept south of Prospect Park but only 4 of them will be in use at one time.
The Q line gets some R68's back.
The W line will be exclusively R68A's. Hmmmmmmmm, guess which line I won't be working on anytime soon?
1) Looks like 60 cars are removed from the Eastern Division (R42's).
2) I think the R68 on the G is a waste of a good car. They should run
the R40S over there.
3) Is there a typo on the Rockaway Park shuttle ? I think it means to
say 12 R44, not R46.
4) Why only 72% of the R40M is deployed ?
5) I still think they should put skirts on about 150 Redbirds and put
them on the J/Z.
1)R68 on G is not a waste of a good car. They would rather run 4 car 75' trains than 6 car 60' trains, and the r-46's are going to be on the V, so the r-68's is a good idea.
2)yes, rkwy. pk. is a typo.
3)Only 72% of r-40m is deployed: this isn't a big deal, maybe the cars aren't needed.
4)If they ever put IRT cars on the B div. i'll go crazy. Why put LOUD SQUEALING cars on an elevated line with sharp turns!?!?
3)Only 72% of r-40m is deployed: this isn't a big deal, maybe the cars aren't needed.
I think they have a hell of an equipment shortage. The R143 aren't to replace anything.
4)If they ever put IRT cars on the B div. i'll go crazy. Why put LOUD SQUEALING cars on an elevated line with
sharp turns!?!?
Are R40/R42 any quieter ? They are low priority lines.
If they are low priority lines, then they won't need the redbirds.
WHY would anyone put the redbirds on another division. And at that, they'd require an overhaul! Seems wasteful, especially since the car shortage isn't 'critical' yet, and the redbirds would be retired in 2 years at the longest
Th point is low priority lines should get low priority equipment, cascading better equipment to where there are customers in crush loads. I am not convinced that they can't cherry-pick 150 Redbirds out of 1400 that can run another 2-3 years without an overhaul.
Actually, the squeal would probably be less severe for an IRT car turning on a BMT Eastern Division el than on an IRT one -- say, the Flushing line bewtween Hunters Point and QP. The IRT cars would handle the turning radius better, because the BMT els were built to handle 67-foot cars, while the IRT cars are 25 percent shorter. Running a BMT car on the No. 7 between QP and Hunters Point the train would not only squeal like a stalked co-ed in a Friday the 13th movie, odds are it would try and transfer itself vertically to the G line at Court House Square.
That said, the MTA apparently thinks running eight car Redbirds as rush hour-only put-ins on the BMT/IND until the R-143s arrive is not good for safety reasons -- which probably means they think the general population is either dumber, more likely to get hurt and more litigious than 42 years ago, when the Low Vs ran with skirts on the Culver shuttle. So'll they'll stick with overcrowded trains for a year or two.
"Running a BMT car on the No. 7 between QP and Hunters Point the train would not only squeal like a stalked co-ed in a Friday the 13th movie, odds are it would try and transfer itself vertically to the G line at Court House Square."
LOL! That's the kind of humor only we subfans can appreciate!
I can think of one person who just might appreciate a train of squealing Redbirds on the Eastern Division.:-)
Let's all sing like the (Red)birdies sing,
Squeak, squeak-squeak, squeak-sqee-eeak....
What exactly is the nature of these "skirts"?
Skirts are extenders on the outside of the IRT cars that allow them to operate on the BMT and IND lines. In the late 1950s, a number of extra IRT Low Vs were shifted over to run on the BMT Culver and Franklin shuttles to deal with a car shortage at the time.
Here's one of the photos from Dave's IRT Low V page that shows the skirts, which are flat at the doors and slanted under the windows.
IRT Low V with skirt adapter for BMT
(1) All yards have to utilize their cars better and have fewer spares. This is why ENY will give up 60 cars to CI. Notice no more R68's on the N! The passengers may not be happy because they'll lose their "new" trains, but I can live with R32's & R42's there. Maybe I'll work the N again? (2) The G riders are pissed off enough that the line is being shortened. Now you want to add fuel to the fire by giving them old 60' cars? As it is, they'll think they are getting screwed twice since the R68's look older than the R46's because of all the car body scratches! (4) You say only 72% of the R40M' are deployed. Work out the math on the others. You may find a similar percentage. There is a spare factor for all classes due to bad ordered cars, inspections, SMS overhauls, new floors installed (Jamaica R32's currently), cars held by orders of any number of TA departments, etc. and (5) In this era of awareness of accidents and lawsuits, I have discussed earlier on SUBTALK why IRT cars will never be used on the B division: putting skirts is an open invitation to school kids and others who think they are immortal to ride side saddle on the cars as they leave a station. And don't tell me if they get hurt it is their fault. Even if that happens or not, the conductor has to pull the cord and gets taken out of service if the idiot gets injured.
I aggree that rather than the TA being "right", and not liable when said teenagers break their necks on the skirts, we'd rather not have the accidents in the first place. Shame though. We really could use those cars.
:-) Andrew
Don't put IRT cars on the B division. The TA shouldn't have retired the R-30's without a replacement to begin with! And, it isn't at the critical point yet, where numerous trains don't run because they don't have enough cars.
Right, retiring the GOH R30's was a mistake. They are not scheduling enough trains as it is, even if they are making the current schedules reality, and would be able to do things like send the V to Church Avenue, V or R to 179th.
For the time being, the V will simply have to operate between 71st and 2av. But, you can't overhaul the redbirds just to scrap them in 2 years.
who think they are immortal to ride side saddle on the cars as they leave a station.
What if the side saddles were retractable; that is, they opened up when the doors opened, and closed (or folded up) when the doors closed? There could be a seperate indication for the status of the door saddle, to tell the T/O that a saddle is still open.
--Mark
They could probably do that, but not at a cost that would be rational if the Redbirds were only going to spend between 18 and 24 months on the B Division.
That would also be bad because the TA doesn't want moving platforms. Why would they wantmoving skirts?
"That would also be bad because the TA doesn't want moving platforms. Why would they wantmoving skirts? "
The T.A. doesn't want me?
:-)
I did do work out the math, which is how I got 72% for the R40M. All others Available/Total are between 83% and 92.
As for the skirts, if they were sloped at a 45-degree angle, they would be hard to hitch a ride on.
>>>2) I think the R68 on the G is a waste of a good car. They should run the R40S over there.<<<
Can't run OPTO with an R40S
Peace,
ANDEE
In other words, the R40S isn't a good car???
Wayne didja hear this??!?
Yep, he doesn't like the shovelnoses, does he. We knows better, they're just fine where they are; the "L", the "Q" and I think they should take them off the "N" and put them on the "B".
wayne
Been waiting for slants since 1995-96 on the West End :(
However, once in a while ENY does send a 480' slant doing yeoman work for the "M" :)
I wouldn't mind keeping a few slants on the N if it were to ever run express in Manhattan again.
I know another line I'd like to see the slants on: the A.
The slants on the A were forever imortalized by the opening credits on "Night Court".
:-) Andrew
And I rode on them once on the A on Easter Sunday in 1978. That train positively ripped along CPW; those local stations were blurs. The slants were a worthy successor to the R-10s.
"2) I think the R68 on the G is a waste of a good car. They should run the R40S over there."
Agree! The R40's will be better served on a line that isn't hardly used.
"3) Is there a typo on the Rockaway Park shuttle ? I think it means to say 12 R44, not R46."
RIGHT! It's just doesn't make sense to have R46's serving the Rockaway Line when the R44's serve the A.
"5) I still think they should put skirts on about 150 Redbirds and put them on the J/Z."
FUNNY! FUNNY! AND MORE FUNNY!!!! HAAHAH AHAHAAHAHAHA AHAHAHA. Seems like you HATE the J line!
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Here's What These People Should Have Done.
1. Cut the 360 R-46's on the F Line and put some on the N Line and make the F Line run with 260 R-46's And the N Line with 100 R-46's.
2. G Never Ran R-68's. Should Put R-68's on the E And Make The G Run With R-32's Instead.
3. Instead of running R-46's on the Rockaway Park Shuttle. The Rockaway Park Shuttle should run R40S's Instead.
That's All I Have To Say.
>>>And Make The G Run With R-32's Instead. <<<
Can't run OPTO with R-32s either.
Peace,
ANDEE
Plus with the way the boards are set up on the G, you'd have to run 10-car trains of R-32s, which is wasteful.
Rockaway Shuttle Runs R44-type MU cars. Must have full width cab for OPTO operations.
R68 MUs are shopped out of Concourse and Coney, E trains are out of Jamaica and are assigned as such.
What happens with the other 100 cars on the F? R42s? I'd like that.
:-) Andrew
NO MORE R68's on the N LINE? Aren't those R40M cars are from the J line? hmmmmmm. I don't like how this sounds.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
The new W line will have all the R68As there instead.
The R-68's On the G Line Is A Good Replacement for the R-46's that run's the G Line Today will be going on the V Line Instead.
Putting R-40S's Is A Bad Idea Because Sometimes the G Line Uses the OPTO on the G Line.
Dominick Bermudez
Please don't take this the wrong way, but you don't need to capitalize every single word.
> Putting R-40S's Is A Bad Idea Because Sometimes the G Line Uses the OPTO on the G Line.
Actually, when the proposed changes take effect, the G Train will be OPTO all the time. Unless, of course, by some miracle we get lucky and the MTA bans conductorless trains from passenger service!
- Lyle Goldman
How come the R110B are idle?
But them on the Rock Park Shuttle.
avid
AFAIK, two of the three sets are in service on the C line as a 6-car train. The third set has been cannibalized for parts to keep the other two running.
I know ,that is the current status. The proposed line up doesn't show any usage. Does this forebode ill tidings for the 110B?
avid
The assignments shows all goose eggs for 67ft cars.
avid
Does anyone have specific information about the date of the last R16 revenue run in 1987? I'm assuming it was an M train, and I'll bet no "farewell fantrip" ever took place.
I've installed my favorite car as the background for my new PC. Looks great, covered in grafitti.....
I have no idea, but I think the J was more likely. The R27/30 and R42
ran on the M at the time, and I don't think they would have trusted such a troublesome car like the R16 on the Southern Division thru Dekalb Avenue at that point in their history.
YES JOE V! In 1985 the J ran the R16. They were loud and broke down often. I would regularly hear, "NO J train service" after I got off the M Local. Now I can see why the M line wasn't running these cars. On top of that, they were one of the ugliest cars I ever seen on the inside. Making the IRT look beautiful in comparison.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Awwww, you didn't like those slanted door-motor panels? The pistachio green interior paint did NOT go too well with the charcoal grey seats, and the white ceiling paint peeled constantly, sprinkling bits of enamel on the passengers. The curved stanchions (the ones that connected to the transverse seats) and the R-10-style handholds were nice touches. I saw one many years ago (on the #14) with the red seats (I was just a little kid). That's one of the few times I went from Eastern Pkwy to Atlantic Avenue on the "L".
wayne
The R16 did indeed run it's last days on the M. In fact, all R16's were assigned to the M at the end, and I remember them running there as late as March 1987. The M line was abused considerably at this time. Until the summer of 1987, none of the rebuilt redbird R30's or overhauled R42's (pre-GOH) thet ran on the J appeared on the M, after the R16 disappeared.
I remember the Eastern Divison in January 1987 (during the LIRR strike). Every J I saw was R16 (although only 72 or so were running), the M R27/30/42.
You're mistaken. An odd R16 J train was possible, but almost every R16 trip during this period was on the M. The J at this time was almost completely R27/30, both pre and post (red) GOH.
I believe the date to be Monday, June 15th. I was working the M line that day (I'm a motorman) and we had R-16 equipment stored in Fresh Pond Yard, waiting to be sent to the scrapper. Due to a very late railroad, we didn't have a train leave Metropolitan Av. for quite sometime. The dispatcher had one of the R-16s brought up to make the 7:30 PM interval. I operated that train to Broadway-Myrtle, and brought it back "lite" to Met. Seats were missing, side signs were missing, people were already grabbing momentos! I don't have the entire consist, but 6337 was on the south, and 6328 on the north. I never heard of another R-16 operating in passenger service after that. Believe me, by that time they were in such sorry shape, we were glad to see them go.
Say, aren't those the ones that featuredt the round porthole-type windows? And wasn't the R-15/16 the only type to employ a three axel bogey truck? Someone settle this for me, as the suspense is killing me. Peace, Thomas:>
Yes, the R-15, R-16 and R-17 all had porthole storm door windows.The R-16 was a 60' car whereas the other two were 50'.
I don't think any subway car had a three axle truck!
Think about it and look at the msg board re the Red Birds.If the R 16,s just finished out there careers that's a good 45 to 46 year run for an order of cars that were only 200 in total. They started on the 15/J with a great deal of stop and go until the advent of skip stop. They did get to stretch between ENY and Marcy during AM PM rush hours. With dyanimac breaking they speeded up the trip over the ole standards they replace. After going in the service 7/62 to drive a tank I lost track of all the other assignments they drew. Iv'e seen pics of them on the R/and other lines.
I do remember the first run over the Rockaway line that used the R-16's moveing along at 15 mph. I'm glad it was a cool day.
So lets give a cheer for the Ole R-16's I hope one or two are saved. Three would be better as that's the way they ran in the late nights.
I think you misunderstood something somewhere.
The R-16's careers ended back in 1987. They're long gone!
The way I read the message I didn't catch the year of the msg. Sorry for the mistake. But the R-16's did the job better than some later models.
Actually, the R16's lifespan was 32 years, max. Many were scrapped in the early-mid 80's, so they didn't make the 35 year mark, which would qualify them as "disappointing".
That's also true of the R17-R22 (1955-1987 at best), R27-30 (1959-1991 at best). They were considered to be better cars.
Being single car units (hence no air-conditioning retrofitting possible) and already into middle age when the worst of the graffiti scourge/lack of preventive maintenance occured during the 1970s probably hurt the R-21/22's longevity.
The R-30s, of course, were done in by the MTA's fixation with a fully ACed B Division (minus the R-32 GEs) and the lack of vision that the Metrocard transfer would bump up the passenger load in the late 1990s to the point that those trains would be needed again.
The GE R32, you mean the 10 rebuilt with the R38's, and they are not AC'd ?
The R-32 GEs were air conditioned, but the system (compressors?) broke down and the MTA had no replacement parts. So now, like the R-110B, they hold out a couple of cars to canabalize for other parts, and run the surviving eight sans air conditioning, making them the only B Division cars currently going without. No problem this time of year, but they reportedly were kept out of revenue service last summer.
More specifically, the cradles which hold the compressors in place fractured after having been installed - to correct the problem would involve removing all the piping and tubing - a true monument to poor engineering.
wayne
There is #6387 (NYCT museum, VG), #6398 (Kingston museum, NM), #6305 (NYCT Coney Island, FAIR), AND the schoolyard car, not sure of the number, not operational.
Does anyone know what happened to the R16 GOH prototype - #6429 - that they converted in 1980? I assume it's been scrapped, but would like to know when that happened.
wayne
GOH prototype? Any more info about this?
Look at page 67 of Greller's book NYC Subway Cars if you have it. 6429 got R42 windows and doors and a R44 front door on its steel end. That page also shows R16's on the F, and GE ones in Rockaway Park yard displaying both numeric and letter route signs simultaneosly. The letter signs were in the former desination roller. One has 10 and M, another has 14 and KK. They must have posed them for this.
Yes, numbered roll destination signs go all the way up to 13 as I understand it, and the MTAs experiment with double-lettered routes was discontinued sometime in the early to mid 1980s. But with them assigning so many new route letters, I think they'll need to eventually go back to this at some point. Does anyone know the ISBN# of the Geller book so that I can mail order it? Please post it if you do!! BTW- STILL no one has been able to answer my question whether or not the R-15/16/17 series cars used triple-axeled bogey trucks or not. As a young boy occasionally being able to ride the #2 and #3 lines these were run on, I couldve sworn that they did!! Does no one out there in SubTalk land know?! Peace, Thomas :>
The route signs went to 16. Jamaica Bway was the 15. If one looks at the outstanding photo gallery of retired cars on the BMT you will see the higher numbers.
Never any triple axle trucks under pass equip. Maybe confused with the Triplex type equipment.
The Triplexes did NOT have three axles per truck, although with their tremendous weight, it might have helped.
Thanx 4 the info, although riding them as a child I coulda SWORN I always saw three sets of wheels per bogey, why exactly are the Called "Triplexes" , anyway? What then, if not axels, are there 3 of?! Inquiring minds wanna know. Peace, Thomas:>
Three units of car articulated together, each sharing a common truck.
Naw, ALL of you to respond to my question have gotten it wrong, I was speaking simply of an ordinary IRT spec train car with a truck at each end, but with 3 instead of the usual 2 axels in each truck. Those who like the idea of a multiply-articulated car sgaring common trucks should check out the State of the Art train on this very site!!
Peace and Free Love for all who cannot otherwise afford to buy it, Thomas:>
I don't know what you're talking about, as I've never seen it, but I hope that you finally get the correct answer.
I was only answering which car is commonly referred to as the Triplex.
Three articulated cars sharing common trucks? I guess this is why they named it the TRIPLEX!!! Thanks for the info. Peace, Thomas:>
BTW: On your triple axle question, I was suspecting you might have seen a work car perhaps that might have had one but all my looking turns up nothing that was triple-axle, not even the locos. Certainly not any of the R cars ... I guess the only place you're going to see them is in the skating rink at Rocky Center ...
New York City Subway Cars (James Clifford Greller) by Xplorer Press has an LC No. 94-060874. Can't find an ISBN#.
ISBN 0964576503
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can thank the R-46s for the "longevity" of the R-16s. Had it not been for the cracked Rockwell trucks on the R-46s, the R-16s would have retired much sooner!
--Mark
Actually, they all got mothballed around 1979-80. The R46 debacle put the Westinghouse (6300's) cars back in service, not the hated GE cars (6400's). The GE ones only saw 25 years of service. For a car that was technologically similar to an R10 thru R30, I don't understand why they were so lousy. I remember riding them on the 15-Jamaica Express, and they ran pretty well down Broadway, although, it was mostly downhill.
The only explanation I can contemplate to describe why the R16 was such a headache was their assignment to the low priority eastern division, thus they didn't get any of the scant "maintenance" that was done in the late 50's/60's. It's IRT counterpart ran with a much better track record.
Could be, although the last 400 rebuilt Standards lived to be 45 or so out there until 1970.
The BMT standard was a superior car all around. Well-designed and built, it was durable and damn near indestructible. The R-16s rode well, but didn't care for snow. Whenever a snowstorm bore down on Brooklyn and Queens, the R-16s were sent to the Canarsie line while the unstoppable BMT standards took over on the Broadway, Myrtle Ave., and Jamaica lines.
Anyone from car shop here? Open frame motors, eh?
The trouble with that was the Jamaica Express was down to 6 Standards, rather then 8 R-16's, making for some overcrowding. Although, in the pre-Chrystie '60's, there was only a 1 hour or so window per rush hour that 15 train was 8 cars, as opposed to 6 and 3 cars at nite. I never even saw a picture of an 8-car Standard, and there were enough single units and 2 car sets to make it happen. There were also big 8 signs (further out than 8/R) all over to reflect the possibility.
There were eight car "standards" running on lines such as the Brighton Baech and I think the West End line. Occasionally there would be "standards" on the Sea Beach line but that was generally served by the "Triplexs".
BMTJeff
I've heard that the Triplexes were no longer on the Sea Beach by the early 60s; except for weekends when the R-27/30s covered all Southern Division service, BMT standards were the norm.
I've heard that the Triplexes were no longer on the Sea Beach by the early 60s; except for weekends when the R-27/30s covered all Southern Division service, BMT standards were the norm.
Chris,
The R16s were problems from the get-go. They were first assigned to the Jamaica Line, but when it looked like there was going to be inclement weather, the ABs of the Canarsie Line and the R16s of the Jamaica Line were swapped. I understand that the reason for this was that the Canarsie line is primarily underground, where the R16s doors,motors, brakes, etc were less affected.
I believe that while less frequent and deferred maintenance on the Eastern Division certainly accelerated the problems of the R16s, they were destined to be poor performers.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
This going back a ways, but in all my trips on the Jamaica line with the R 16's until May of 62 and from the beginning of their service I never had a train of R 16's fail. They were cold in the winter most probably due to frequent stops and slow recovery of heaters. True they should have just used the same techonology as the standards and just polished the wheel and not brought into alot of new tech hype. Look what has happened over the years. The TA gets a good trouble free design and they should stay with it. Only buy large orders of cars on proven design tech. Less breakdowns reliable service and the people will ride. The operators (Motorman and Conductors) will be less frustrated and in the long haul the TA will at least break even.
What about the R16 made it more troublesome than the R17? Weren't both cars essentially the same, mechanically? I can understand that the R17 had a better performance simply because it was used mainly on the Lexington Ave. and Flushing, which were very "high-priority".
For one thing, they were a lot heavier than an R17, and for that matter, an R10. Their underpowering could have contributed to their slowness, eventual strain, and unreliability. The GE cars were particularly bad, but the book "They Moved Millions" acknowledged that a similar car in different parts of the system could behave diffrently. It is no exaggeration that the 50 R16 originally assigned to the A had a very hard time with the salt air on the Rockaways even when new.
Flip back to September 2000 on the Subway Calendar for a look at a set of R-16s on the Myrtle.
Mr t__:^)
In their original olive drab and #10 route signs to boot.
Its true that I heard some R16 survived onto 1988 when they were scrapped later that same year?
whats the point of the new lines? they say that they are there to reduce crowding on the e/f lines but it doesn't make no sense. just like there detour notices don't make any sense when the train can run through the line. anyway, instead of eliminating the q line. run it to 179th st. and do local stops to forest hills instead of the f making those stops. run it local with the g and r trains down to 36th st. and then through the 63rd st. tunnel. and the g should keep running to forest hills. everyone says that the g is useless but it is obvious that nobody knows how useful it is. especially to the people who live in greenpoint brooklyn who come into queens. that line had a big increase in ridership and it is getting bigger. everytime i ride it going home from work, it is lightly jam packes half the time. more crowded in its midline.
You may not be aware of the true purpose of the 63rd St. tunnel when it was conceived: to provide a completely NEW route thru Queens. They ran out of money and terminated it at 21st St., with the hope of sending it farther "some day". Don't blame this on the TA. The politicins provide the money so the routes can be built and the TA uses the "cards" it is dealt! "Some day" never came and so it wouldn't be completely useless, it was decided to hook it up at 36th St./ Northern Blvd. Everybody has his own ideas for a service plan, some good, some bad. The TA only has so many cars to work with since the R143's are late.
The TA only has so many cars to work with since the R143's are late.
How late are they? When were they ordered? Before or after the TA discovered that you can increase revenue by lowering prices?
Here are all the problems with your plan, from least to most obvious.
G+R turn at 71st and Q goes through, highly difficult to turn trains and provide through service on the same track even with a relay.
10TPH R + 10TPH Q + 8TPH G = Overload. Montague st tunnel has 28 TPH, massive delays if even one extra train (rerouted Q) gets thrown in. It works only because all trains share tracks only for 3 stops. On QB it would be 12 stops, one of which is a terminal.
Q makes local stops instead of F past Forest Hills: Nice idea, except those bastards at 169 st would bitch and moan about having a fully local ride to Manhattan (same reason why the R doesn't run there with the F express as was intended). Van Wyck Blvd and 75th ave could be dealt with by sending the E local, Sutphin people could take the E a few blocks away.
The Q would be on Broadway and doubled into express and local. You cannot turn one Q at 57th and send the other through, and sending both through would mean instead of 10 TPH, 20. Don't forget car shortage, extending 20 TPH several miles with our fleet would require an act of God.
Nothing serves 57/6th, unless you extend the Grand st shuttle (like the 80s).
Your argument for the G is rather weak. No one said it was useless, but obviously less useful than another line to Manhattan. Complaining about having to transfer at Court sq / 23 ely gives you the same attitude as those 169ers who can't even ride a train one stop and haul their ass across the platform.
As for your comment on the detours, it's easier to handle customers if no regular service is supposed to go through, it would have to be cancelled for the reroutes (which are necessary for the switch/signal/track replacement which had been pushed back until this thing opened). Plus, the Queens Plaza area is undergoing a transition and right now is under the control of several towers. Until QBP Master tower controls everything, it would be stupid to try and run simultaneous regular and connector service.
Don't forget, if the line is now running 20 miles instead of 10, you need to add more trains to the line (which they don't have) or decrease service frequency signifcantly on the central part of the line.
-Hank
i see i stand corrected. i need learn alot more. however, people can still tranfer to an express train at Parsons blvd. one stop away from 169th st. it would be best to then terminate the g at court square. you have clarified many things for me.
"especially to the people who live in greenpoint brooklyn who come into queens. that line had a big increase in ridership and it is getting bigger. everytime i ride it going home from work, it is lightly jam packes half the time. more crowded in its midline."
It depends on the DAY, KHI. For some apparent reason, usually after 10AM the line seem to have a larger ridership, than during rush hours.
What they (MTA) can do is run the line as a midday service when it's most popular instead of inconviencing most of the people heading to Manhattan.
One more thing, maybe the MTA can advertise the line as a faster way to downtown Brooklyn. I'm very sure they are a lot of workers who use the G line into downtown Brooklyn.
Question? How many people work in downtown Bklyn? And what can be done to the G line to make it attractive for persons heading for downtown Bklyn? Thank you all for your response!
N Broadway Line
Astoria
well downtown bklyn. does have alot of commerce down there. btw many already know that it is an easy way to bklyn.
A West Virginia driver drove into the side of a slow-moving NS freight train at 2:25 AM at a rural grade crossing protected by lights but not gates. The car was dragged, then hit by a train going in the other direction. The driver's wife, twin brother, and brother's girl friend were also killed. Story in Cleveland Plain Dealer.
What can you say about that that hasn't already been said somewhere on this site?
How do you drive into the side of a train? I'd hate to be crossing the street in front of that guy.
I have some theories about that, but I wasn't there, so I probably should keep them to myself. It's a terrible tragedy, and their loved ones are suffering.
Since it happened at 2:45 AM the first possibility that comes to mind is that he was asleep.
>>>Since it happened at 2:45 AM the first possibility that comes to mind is that he was asleep. <<<
And the second possibilty is that they had been out partying and the driver shouldn't have been driving,
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, I suppose that is one reason for a West Virginian to go to Ohio.
amen
>>> I'd hate to be crossing the street in front of that guy <<<
That's something you no longer need to worry about.
Tom
That's no accident, that's plain old stupity in action. Forget crossing the street in front of the guy, I wonder how many times he went through his garage door.
Unless there was a second car involved. It's been known to happen.
-Hank
Unless there was a second car involved. It's been known to happen.
So true. The driver of the "second car" in another case was just sentenced to 80 years. If no witnesses come forward, I doubt that the forensic team will be able to tell from the debris whether there was another car this time.
Well, that particular case should be seperated, since it most definately doen't fall into the catagory of accident. There was every intention on the part of the second driver. As opposed to what happened to that girl in Iowa, whose car was dragged about a mile after she was rear-ended accidently at a crossing.
-Hank
Another case for the continuation of Operation Lifesaver by the nation's railroads. The message cannot be delivered enough times. Someone out there will always need to hear it.
MTA hasn't included weekend 63rd St service on its Website map...
Has Illinois Railway Musuem or Seashore Trolley Museum expressed any interest in obtaining any of these cars ?
About a year ago I saw a flyer that the Illinios Railraod museum were interested in aquiring a pair of R26/28 cars. The TA would donate a pair, but the museum would be responsible for funding to get them there.
[The TA would donate a pair, but the museum would be responsible for funding to get them there.]
That's usually aways the case. The cars are donated, but the transportation costs to flatbed a subway car off NYCT property are around $5,000. So, even a getting a subway car for "free" ain't cheap...:-(
BMTman
If IRM gets any, they might possibly get loaded on 2 TTX flats at the SBK yard and shipped by rail. IRM has an interchange with UP (ex-CNW).
Time will tell. They have shipped steam locomotives on their own wheels, so a couple of Redbirds should be no problem for IRM.
A couple of members from IRM came up to Shoreline Trolley Museum (aka BERA) last Spring and were interested in getting a set of Redbirds for organization.
I don't know if any Redbirds are being held aside for sale, but the MTA/NYCT Procurement Dept. would be one way to find out if any cars will be made available for purchase by private individuals or non-profit groups.
BMTman
IRM's board approved acquiring a pair of ACF cars and
some funding has been solicited and received. As for
Seashore I'd have to let T.G. comment on that.
"IRM's board approved acquiring a pair of ACF cars and
some funding has been solicited and received. "
Jeff H,
I heard there may be a problem with IRM acquiring the Redbirds. This has to do with asbestos and that any rail car leaving the TA for scrap must have asbestos removed. Will the TA waive this and IRM acquire the cars by signing a release ?
Bill "Newkirk"
That is the 2nd time I've heard the Asbestos problem. I heard from a TA source that they would not let ANY cars go without the abatement of the Asbestos and the TA wouldn't pay for that >G< sooooo no cars to to anyone except the fishieees.
The trains have asbestos? Is this any danger to the passengers?
Andrew
The trains have asbestos? Is this any danger to the passengers?
Only if they get run over.
The redbirds have Asbestos, no danger since it is fully encapsulated (pardon spelling). Asbestos is dangerous if it is flaking or in particle form where you can breath it in. Sinking the Redbirds gets the TA out of the very expansive removal of the asbestos since the cars will be sunk so no airborne particulate matter.
I remember opening a door access panel some 30 years ago and it looked like it was the usual "blown-in" onto the metal where they then sprayed plastic over it. While this encapsulation method (spelling was correct) does keep it from flaking, over time the encapsulant DOES crack and fall off which can result in "friable asbestos" (that's what flakies are called) occurring.
If a museum DOES manage to acquire some and if the TA is willing to make some available, I would expect that the museum folks would be required to send in a contractor to touch up the encapsulation before the cars could leave the property or the TA would use this reality as the reason for not allowing them to be acquired. Just so folks from the museums have an idea of what would be involved.
I've been involved in asbestos removal requirements in situations in office buildings where we had to open up the ceilings for bringing in new wiring for television facilities and things of that nature and as long as things aren't disturbed where the asbestos is, no biggie. But I would imagine the vibration and shock of riding the rails for 50 years has clearly created an asebestos problem inside the car walls.
I assume the asbestos never got removed in that strip down rebuilding all the conventional R units got ?
Why would the TA worry about asbestos after the cars no longer belong to them ? Put a clause in the contract that there are the risks, they are not repsonsible - take it or leave it, as is, where is. Asbestos didn't stop the LIRR from selling their P72/PT72/PT75 fleet to Ken Bitten, and they had corrosion problems far worse than the Redbirds.
Dunno ... perhaps the federal rules have changed on that stuff. While asbestos is clearly a risk, I think the extent of the risk has been blown way out of proportion ... but that's my own opinion. All I can tell you is when we wanted to pull in wires for a television facility in the Erastus Corning Tower Building in the Empire State Plaza in Albany, NY they went BOZO on us and we ended up having to close off half of a floor on the 21st floor of the building to have asbestos removed and the remainer sealed in before we could pull wires into the drop ceiling. This was in 1986 ...
It can be $5-10K for acquisition costs (including transportation, insurance, etc). Plus, at Seashore, we have a strict accession policy which requires a well though-out plan on how the car(s) will be stored, restored, etc. Finally, we have a severe lack of track space (not to mention barn space).
All that being said, I'd love to have a pair of 'birds at Seashore, if we can raise the money and get a project sponsor with the time to make it happen.
Are there still any MVMs with the Trade-in feature?
Does the MTA plan to restore it, or do they choose to remove it for all law-abiding citizens because of a few troublemakers and not fix the bugs to prevent the troublemaking
It'll take me forever to use up that Earth Day Metrocard and the paper Metrocard from the ATM.
Pork:
The few MVM's I tried as of late do not offer the trade in feature. So it looks like all the MVM's are possibly that way.
Saturday I had to combine two cards' value into one, did that via a station agent. They have to figure a way so the law abiding people who want to trade in or combine cards can do so without accessing the station agent. It's got to be a matter of reproggaming the computers within each MVM.
Bill "Newkirk"
the paper Metrocard from the ATM
Paper Metrocards? Really? How durable are they? I've seen Metrocards on ATM menus but have never bought one from an ATM. If they're paper, I may never buy one.
If they're paper, I may never buy one.
They're a hybrid type of paper, more durable than the transfer, and they look exactly like a regular Metrocard.
They are called "Triplex" MetroCards. They are made of plastic impregnated paper in three layers. We can not refill these at the booth. They are designed for one life cycle only--meaning when you use up the money on the card you pitch the card.
We do trade-ins at the booth. You can trade in up to 3 at one time, 5 if there is no line with an option (left up to us) to add 5 more. The only ctahc is the combined card can not be more than $100.00
They are called "Triplex" MetroCards. They are made of plastic impregnated paper in three layers. We can not refill these at the booth. They are designed for one life cycle only--meaning when you use up the money on the card you pitch the card.
We do trade-ins at the booth. You can trade in up to 3 at one time, 5 if there is no line with an option (left up to us) to add 5 more. The only catch is the combined card can not be more than $100.00
Thanks to everyone who answered my previous query about those abandoned trackways just west of the abandoned underground Woodhaven LIRR station. According to "Change at Ozone Park," (a GREAT LIRR book, for anyone who hasn't read it), turns out that those trackways once carried tracks to/from the north/south Rockaway Beach-Jamaica Bay route to/from the underground Atlantic Avenue line. These tracks were apparently removed in or about 1958-1962, as was the switch over the Atlantic tracks.
I wonder if those school buses have been parked "upstairs" all that time.
ther is a lot of old krylon cans remaining there and some are filled. I scouted those tracks before and recovered many cans dating from the 70s. kinda cool
in yesterday's times, in section 14, which is not archived on the web, peter marks described seeing a mouse get on a c train at 42nd street, scurry around the car for a while, and get off at 34th street ( perhaps to make connections for an express )... this was on the first page of section 14 in the "coping" column and was entitled "so it's come to this: rats riding the rails...
his prose matches our avid readers...
i will quote a sentence or two:
"As he boarded the C train at 42nd Street, every head in the car turned He was sleek and mysterious, lithe and enigmatic, a presence at once galvanizing and repellent."
when i initially read the first paragraphs, i thought i was about to read an adventure of heypaul and the kingfish...
i am sorry to report that no mention was made in the article of type of equipment, car number, or date and time of day...
I'm assuming that since he easily fit under the turnstile
(and probably less than three years old) he was exempt from paying a fare.
But he was not with a fare paying adult. So he should go jail, or instead, to the Cheese Wheel while somebody turns the crank. :-)
It's actually a new Jersey Mike plot to avoid paying fare. Morph into a rat, ride,then morph back into a person :^>
In his case I didn't think any morphing was required :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Excuse me, but I like to think of myself as a crow or raven.
That's cute and all, but really the city's rodent problem is pretty bad these days. I'm not even using the 14thSt/6th Ave station because last week, I saw a giant rat ON THE MEZZANINE LEVEL! I hope the city's doing something real about this (apart from the ad campaign.)
Anyway, I hope the mouse was headed for Penn Station--specifically Amtrak. Maybe it caught an express to California.
Andrew
The rats at 53rd and Lex (on the lower level E,F platform) are all over, and they are huge.
IND stations seem to have the worst rat problems.
Could that be because that IND stations are [generally] deeper than BMT or IRT stations??
It does seem like the deep stations such as 53rd and Lex seem to have the worst rodent problems. The IND has the most deep stations, doesn't it?
Some of the IRT stations are no bargains either. I remember the summer of '99 when I was waiting for the #3 train in I believe the Boro Hall station. A big ugly dark rat scurried right by me with no fear whatsoever. He passed me like I wasn't even there. If I had had quick reflexes I would have jumped sky high. Can something be done to eradicate the rodent problem in the subways?
Perhaps we can get PeTA involved in saving them ... after all, the poor little darlings might get electrocuted down there and that would be a bad thing. :)
Yummmm!!! French Fried Rat!!!
Quick, call the producers of Survivor!!!!
I actually saw mice/rats running around stations on the London Underground. Interestingly, it was the deep level tube statios that had the most rodents which would agree with the observations all of you have made in New York regarding the station depth and rodent population. Anyways, these mice/rats were able to squish beneath the positive conductor rail (the one outside as opposed to the negative one located between the running rails) and not be electrocuted because the tiles on the curved wall of the station and the concrete track foundation don't conduct electricity.
might get electrocuted down there and that would be a bad thing. :)
It probably would be a bad thing because chances are Roasted Rodents smell bad.
-Robert King
New Yorkers would take that in stride too ... "what's that smell?" is a community game here and there are some who would offer that some of the fast food easteries have the "inside track" on roasted rodents. Just ask those Dunkin' Donuts customers uptown. :)
As I understand it, some homeless people refer to rats as "Track Rabbits".
an something be done to eradicate the rodent problem in the subways?
Yes, but then most of them would just drive to Manhattan :-)
They seem to be immune to rodent poison.
FEED THEM
FEED THEM BEEF
FEED THEM MAD COW BEEF
MAD RAT
avid
Aw, just go and get them a Sabrett's ... sheesh. :)
Thats funny, I always understood the rumor/urban legend was that they were IN sabrett's franks! Peace, and Kosher Franks Only, Thomas:>
Watch it ... Hebrew National isn't exactly Glatt anymore either. I forget which huge multinational conglomerate owns them now but they're not made in Crown Heights either. Damn, I miss street dogs ...
I wonder if they're in Shofar's Franks?
BMTJeff
THOSE might be Kosher ... when I left "fun city" it was Sabrett's or House'O'Weenies (and of course some mystery meat called "GO" but since I worked on the subway, wasn't going to eat any more of THOSE) ... heh.
Enough already, you're making me lose my appetite talking about those bastard creatures.
We're sorry about what we're discussing. It is rather disgusting to think about what might be in your frankfurters. Hopefully only the good stuff is in Nathan's frankfurters.
BMTJeff
Woof. :)
If the truth must be known, here it is: there are rodent hairs, insect parts and the like in ALL the food you eat. The department of health has set "acceptable" limits on all of these.
Peace,
ANDEE
Isn't that swell! I'm not going to ask you how you know this, but you'd be great for the diet industry. A few more pearls like that and we'd all lose our appetites.
Sorry about that. I guess I got a little carried away. Let's hope this settles the issue before anyone has to reach for the Maalox
BMTJeff
I think that you're right that Shofar's franks are kosher.
BMTJeff
Hebrew National isn't exactly Glatt anymore either.
The ones I bought at the grocery this Sunday are...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wow ... I remember being some kind of magilla over them locally on the news for not being Glatt a couple of years ago, citing the "new" company that was manufacturing them. Will have to go check it out since I don't really care for the Mogen David brand they sell up here in these parts.
Oy! So if a rat eats a hotbog, it might be canibalism!
DOUBLE OY!!!
:O Andrew
oh hell !! after reading all of these threads etc...........there goes my KOSHER DOGS at PENN STATION adventure in newark !!!
my experence there is ruined forever !!!!
the most funny bunch of posts i have ever seen on subtalk in a long time !! i enjoyed them all !!! LOL !!!!!
On May 22, 1993 I was riding a No.6 train and I was standing in front of the "railfan" window and I saw a good sized rat down on the tracks at the 103rd St. station. I don't think that any subway station is free from rats.
BMTJeff
I don't know about 53rd/Lex. But, not that there's any excuse, but the 6th Ave/14th St station (among other INDs) might have some reasons why it seems to be one of the worst ones:
--It's relatively quiet. At least the F platforms are. When there isn't a train around, the mezzanine area is a ghost town--even at ush hours.
--It's a labarrinth! The F platforms are connected indirectly to PATH, to the L, to the long passageway to the 1,2,3,9, and to an abandonned passageway from 7th to 8th. At off-hours, there are a lot of places for rats to hide, and to run arround between sections.
But most of all, the subway is filthy! There's really no excuse for it!
Andrew
Sorry Mr. K, we don't want any of your rodents in our fair state. We have enough of them alreay, especially of the human kind. Besides, we have our own energy problems to worry about without the added burden of having to take on some of New York's problems.
Was this rodent of the 4-legged or 2-legged variety? There are plenty of both in the subways, y'know.
mitch... it's a shame this isn't on the web... there's a little color cartoon drawing in the middle of the article showing several standing passengers holding on to handrails... there's a man dressed in blue wearing a pin wheel cap... a woman dressed in red looking like she needs a shave with a cigar in her mouth... a tall rodent faced person with a hat on, with a rodent like nose and buck teeth... and the real kicker, behind him stands a green faced giant with the look of the frankenstein monster...
the cartoon is attributed to mark matcho... it is really funny...
oh yes... to my eyes, they look like they are standing in an r142...
Sounds fairly believable, but how did the mouse negotiate the 3" to 4" gap between the doorsill and the station platform edge? -Thom:>
If The Cops Saw That Rodent On The C Train. The Cops Just Shoot The Gun At the Rodent and the rodent is dead.
Then The Bullet Ricochets Off The Floor And Hits A Passenger And The Passenger's Lawyer Sues The City's @$$ Off
Car equipment on the C is a no-brainer: R-32s or R-38s or a mixed consist of both.
Late Friday morning, I spotted a train of MARC cars in the Sunnyside Yard, among the Amtrak and NJT cars. I couldn't get any car numbers since I was on a 7 train when I spotted them. Seeing NJT cars in Sunnyside is no big deal, but seeing cars that regularly don't go out of Maryland, DC, and West Virginia? That's something!
During SEPTA's last city division strike, I rode VRE and MARC cars regularly on the R3 as SEPTA tried to deal with the crunch of extra city riders using regional rail.
Because of the new Kawasaki bi-level cars, the old heritage cars become redundant. Some cars are usually leased to other commuter railroads. Maybe SEPTA borrows some of the MARC cars for assistance.
Chaohwa
It Could Be The Brand New Kawasaki Bi-Level Cars. When These Cars Where On The Way Down To MARC At That Time. Some Bi-Level Cars Are At MARC Right now.
I was getting on the 4:16 to Baldwin and spotted the same MARC train, left Penn on track 13 with passengers. A long cmmute from Maryland area.
I commute down to New Brunswick on NJT and have been seeing MARC cars regularly attached to the ends of Amtrak trains on the NEC for the past few weeks. Don't know if this helps anyone figure out what they're doing or why!
They weren't bilevels by any chance? I know NJT is in the market for a Bilevel car, and I'm sure they'd like to not have a repeat of the LIRR's brickliners...
If You Want To See Photos Of What MARC Runs.
Click here: TransiTALK International
Enjoy.
If You Want To See Photos Of What MARC Runs.
www.transitalk.com
Enjoy.
If You Want To See Photos Of What MARC Runs.
www.transitalk.com
Enjoy.
Dominick Bermudez.
Saw the train laid up yesterday am in Sunnyside Yard. Consisted of
old Metroliner MUs that were refurbished and called Capitoliners.
Stopped running as MUs in the mid 80s. You can still see where the
pantographs were placed on the roofs...
A posting about a public meeting makes reference to a proposed "walking transfer" between the (7) at 45th Rd. to the (E)(F) at 23rd St and the (G) at Court Sq. Any more details? Is this for MetroCard users only?
Bob Sklar
Yes, this is a Metrocard based transfer. Anybody out there know exactly how it works?
I have a theory. I remember when there was a temporary walking transfer between the IRT at 51st Street and the IND at 53rd Street and Lex (during escalator replacement that closed the direct connection, IIRC). Since no exit swipe is involved, it must be that the re-entry turnstile is programmed to accept the transfer on the Metrocard created at another subway turnstile and to leave the turnstile-created transfer in place instead of erasing it on use. Presumably, transfers created by bus fareboxes continue to be processed in the usual way.
I imagine Thurston knows for sure.
It could work like the free transfer from/to SIRT St. George and the Subway stops near South Ferry.
I can take a bus (pay fare) to the SIRT, swipe out at St. George (transfer) and then at tranfer (2nd time) at Whitehall for the N/R.
What PBS tonight at 9pm.
Click here for details
I watched that last night!
Question: Was Edward Budd (originally a carmaker in Philly) the founder of the Budd Company of Penn Central Metroliner MU and R-32 Brightliner fame? That was the Budd Co's original home, wasn't it?
Yes. Yes.
Additional background information, including a "Stramliners Timeline", is available from the PBS website:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/streamliners/index.html
Great show! I second the recommendation.
You did mean "tonight," right? Out of my 3 local PBS channels, none are showing it (WYBE, WHYY, NJN)
PBS is not on a national schedule all the time local stations have leeway in what the show and when they show it.
I second the nomination ! it was a great show to watch with a very sad ending !!!!!
get the video if you missed it, it is part of the AMERICAN EXPERENCE series on PBS !!
Article on subway bathrooms from the Post
Peace,
ANDEE
Bottom line: Some of us public are scumbags.
And with a cop attendant there any scumbag making a mess in there should be arrested (and if it were up to me, they'd be flogged).
And there needs to be more public restrooms that are monitored, and not the kind you pay for. Pay toilets should be outlawed.
You need to get some illegal aliens, or other desperate-for-a-job type. Cops won't play bathroom attendant, even if you give them a raise.
And I wouldn't blame them. Pay toilets are much better, because people treat things they pay for better then they treat things they get for free.
-Hank
That's right, you can get something for nothing for a while, but in the end you get nothing. What are you going to do? Raise the already high taxes, cut the already underfunded schools, or raise the fare to pay for toilet attendents? Nonsense, but you won't have decent services without them.
If there was a charge, you could have private franchisees upgrading and operating the bathrooms, with attendents and other amenities.
Pay toilets are a way of life in Europe; intercity rail stations, some stores, parks, etc. I hate having to pay for it but with my crummy bladder it's handy. Railfanning/sightseeing NYC by rail eventually has me feeling desperate, and I'm sure I have a lot of company.
Just as a side story I haven't seen that there are now or ever were public toilets on the Chicago el, Stockholm system, and likely other places. NYC is not an exception. Better to keep a bathroom clean, better to have to pay a small fee than risk a fine, better than having hidden parts of stations stink.
BTW highest price of a pay toilet I"ve seen? Train station Geneva Switzerland : 1 swiss franc..a US dollar more or less, just to pee. Full facility about 1 1/2 swiss francs. That's way too much.
Here's the solution. Intergrate a MetroCard farebox into the bathroom door. Uses of the bathroom are $1.50, just like a regular fare. You get as much time as you need. Unlimited ride cards would not be accepted. Of course you wouldn't be able to control more than one person entering the bathroom on one fare payment. You could setup Metrocard maidens to discourage that of course, but you would still on occasion get people doubling through the gate.
Anyway, it would keep the bathrooms in order I think if atleast one person had to pay a fare to use them despite how many actually enter.
By the way, I'm wonder if it's legal to put video cameras in areas of the bathroom where you can get a general idea of what's going on. They don't have to be positioned where you can see people doing there business, just so you can see for example, how many guys enter one stall :)
Would it be illegal to put up fake video cameras. I'm sure people would be scared to do anything if they thought they were being watched but really aren't. I mean does the lay say that no devices can be present at all even if they are fake? We may have something here.
Shawn.
The problem with bathrooms in the subway system is that some enterprising creatures will find them a convenient place to either sell drugs, engage in prostitution, commit robbery, or other offensive activity. Face the facts, opportunity presents in negative as well as positive ways. How to keep the bad guys from making things bad for the rest of us is a hard nut to crack.
By the way, I'm wonder if it's legal to put video cameras in areas of the bathroom where you can get a general idea of what's going on. They don't have to be positioned where you can see people doing there business, just so you can see for example, how many guys enter one stall :)
If the 'net can have old and honorable traditions, toilet cams are one of them!
And there needs to be more public restrooms that are monitored, and not the kind you pay for. Pay toilets should be outlawed.
We should also have a 100% tax rate, and all food, clothing, shelter, transportation, health care, right on down to funeral arrangements should be free and funded by the government.
Maybe in your horrible Utopia, but not in the real world.
Not much has changed. You may recall that Prime Minister Khruschev tried to use the Columbus Circle bathroom during his official visit in 1959. I guess the TA cannot be shamed into action.
It was probably an improvement over what they had in the former Soviet Union. Many bathrooms there had holes in the floor for doing your business, and not much else.
I hear they still have those bathrooms with a hole in the floor in China, even modern cities like Hong Kong have them. And you have to pay for a regular style restroom in those places. That really sux.
I hear they still have those bathrooms with a hole in the floor in China,
They had outhouses (no plumbing), when I was there 20 years ago.
even modern cities like Hong Kong have them.
So do Tokyo and Paris but they come with plumbing.
And you have to pay for a regular style restroom in those places
Actually, I had to pay to use a crouch, the last time I was in Tokyo. It was very clean and I was grateful it was available.
I think it is more sporting to try to use a crouch on a moving train. :-)
That really sux.
You mean America has seduced you with indoor plumbing? :-)
It was probably an improvement over what they had in the former Soviet Union
I have no first hand experience, but I'd would have expected that at that time the bathrooms would have been designed and maintained to the same standards as the rest of the Moscow subway. After all, Khrushchev was the commissar who built it in the 1930's.
Many bathrooms there had holes in the floor for doing your business, and not much else.
I don't know the technical term for such appliances. I know it is called a "crouch" in french. It is used in most of the world, including Western Europe. The question is whether or not it has working plumbing. The plumbing maintained by the NYCT tends to be non-functional.
andee...great article... thanks for linking it...
what was really interesting was the condition of the west 4th street station being attributed to the attention given by the transit authority police officer... the ta spokesman who shot down toilets because they would require 6 full time attendants was full of it... if it were known that the restrooms were being given regular attention by the police, then that would probably cut down a lot of the abuse of these facilities...
hey... new york is pretty low on the list of world class cities in providing amenities to people... i grew up with "make sure you go, before you leave the house", and it helped turn me into a full fledged neurotic... the story of the women going into the ladies room in the subway, and being repelled by the conditions speaks poorly of our concern for people.. if this is a city which is gallant and respectful of women, a clean and safe ladies bathroom should be a given... the mta is pissing away millions and millions of dollars to provide a clean, antiseptic, and hopefully safe new subway car or in fancy tiled floors... would they not do as much to provide for a basic human necessity for the millions of people who use the system everyday?
i grew up with "make sure you go, before you leave the house", and it helped turn me into a full fledged neurotic...
As Paul Harvey would say, now you know the REST of the story :)
--Mark
Must be that cheap birthday cake.:-)
Well said!
There should definately be decent subway bathrooms, if an attendant is all it takes then what's the holdup? These bathrooms should be contantly monitored by security. And any homeless/or mentally ill person making a mess in there should be arrested.
On another related note, the city is installing pay toilets around midtown. No one should have to pay to use a restroom. That is a new low.
On another related note, the city is installing pay toilets around midtown. No one should have to pay to use a restroom. That is a new
low.
Actually, the Paris Metro used a variation on the theme. The toilets were free. It cost to use toilet paper. However, the attendant supplemented her (usually a she - even for the men's loo) income by giving excellent shoe shines.
The inability for three successive city administrations to build a single "public convenience" in nearly a quarter century points to the shortcomings of their administrations. The conditions of the subway toilet facilities is a realistic measure of their maintenance practices in most other areas. Why the surprise?
Actually, the Paris Metro used a variation on the theme. The toilets were free. It cost to use toilet paper.
Couldn't do that in the good ol' U.S. of A. If NYCT (or anyone else) started charging for toilet paper, women's rights advocates would file sex discrimination lawsuits, on the grounds that women have to use t.p more often. No joke, I'm sure this would happen, and quickly.
Taking a glance back at the history of water closets in the subways we find :
At one time alternate life styles were against the law. Sometimes this life style was found to flourish in the waterclosets of the subways. This could not be allowed! After arrest and bashings failed to ammend these criminal ways coin operated locks were used. Now low rent rendezvous replaced water closets. Until most were locked for employees only use.
Go before you leave home, or leave work for home. Some of the transient tennents just use a shadowey stair or corridor or far end of a platform.
Some locations seem to get repeat visits. On the elavated stations the choice spot seems to be behind the stair to the lower mezz. Or the sand boxes seem to smell of urine. Low traffic volumn areas.
Where have you seen evidence of a bodily function discharge?
avid
>>>Where have you seen evidence of a bodily function discharge? <<<
Human or animal?
Peace,
ANDEE
Aquaduct station, northbound far end of platform. Stairs to north bound platform. Both occasions a few years back. Bothsightings on a Monday a.m. So I guess the culprets were weekenders. This station also gets a large number of beverage container collectors. The take them to a local Waldbaums for the deposit. They do leave the few cans that are not refunded at or near the station. So maybe????? they leave other deposits.
avid
No one should have to pay to use a restroom. That is a new low.
If you have a bathroom in your house, you have to pay to clean it (buy utensils, cleaning agents, do work), buy toilet paper, and pay for the water in the sink and toilet. You also have to maintain the piping leading into and out of the room. If you use any hot water you also have to maintain a water heater and buy the oil/gas/electricity for it. If you live in an apartment the water bill, oil/gas/electricity bill for the water heater and maintenance of the piping and water heater is factored into your rent.
Why should public toilets cost less than private toilets?
You get charged twice for eating. Once for consuming the food, then again for getting rid of the leftover by-product. My opinion, it's just plain wrong.
You're starting to cross the line from absurd to wackjob.
-Hank
I wonder if the writer of that Post article visited the "head" at Stillwell Terminal ?
Bill "Newkirk"
This Friday.
I Am Takeing Metro North. I Might Take Photos of the trains.
Also I Be Takeing Photos of Bee-Line Buses.Too.
Also I AM Trying Hard To Open A Webpage where I Will Put Photos on the web. But I Don't Have A Scanner Yet. I Getting One Sometime Soon.
This Friday.
I Am Takeing Metro North. I Might Take Photos of the trains.
Also I Be Takeing Photos of Bee-Line Buses.Too.
Also I AM Trying Hard To Open A Webpage where I Will Put Photos on the web. But I Don't Have A Scanner Yet. I Getting One Sometime Soon.
Dominick Bermudez.
be sure to take some pix!
If you dont have a scanner or digital camera, please send a set to Dave or to Peggy so we can scan the photos. You will be shown as the photographer. E-mail Dave orPeggy off-site if you want a snail-mail address.
Does anyone have any details on the Piermont Branch in Rockland County?...What railroad ran it, where it begins and ends, when was the last date of passenger/freight service and if there is local support for establishment of the line.
Does anyone have any details on the Piermont Branch in Rockland County?...What railroad ran it, where it begins and ends, when was the last date of passenger/freight service and if there is local support for establishment of the line.
Click here for a thread on this topic on another board.
The program is on PBS tonight at 9PM.
So Boys & Girls (mostly Boys anyway), you either want to be or already are a Train Operator. When you come to the B division (IND/BMT), you're gonna come to the dreaded Canarsie Line eventually. The T/O's say dreaded because of all the timers. But that's because they're all rookie stiffs :) . If you know how to operate the line, it can actually be one of the most fun lines to operate on! It's the only line in the system where you can manipulate the timers to clear within inches of your train! So if you're planning to operate, make fun of the T/O's wussiness when you're at the railfan window, or just wanna update your personal train simulator, heeeeeeeere's how to do it. BTW, when I say "wrap it", that means put the controller in parallel (max. speed). Also (bs) means........well.......you've heard of the train in the movie called "Silver Streak"? Well, operate at this speed and you'll be driving the "Brown Streak". Cause that's what you'll have on your underpants when the timers clear without you even seeing a yellow (though you may have that downstairs too).
Northbound to 8th Avenue:
Rockaway Pkwy to Sutter Av--wrap it.
Sutter to Atlantic Av--two points leaving Sutter, coast at 12 mph, begin braking as you reach the first timer at the end of the curve, two points to 12 mph after clear to the second timer, coast until second timer clears, two points to the yellow R resume sign (only yellow one that I know of), wrap at the R.
Atlantic to Bway Jct--two points over the switch, wrap it at the automatic at the edge of Bway Jct.
Bway Jct to Bushwick/Aberdeen--two points leaving Bway, coast at 15 mph, entering tunnel regulate brake to maintain 15 mph, last timer by Bushwick will clear at that speed, then wrap it.
Bushwick to Wilson Av--two points leaving Bushwick to 12 mph, coast at 12, train will pick up speed on it's own, first timer will clear way ahead, when you see the stop arm of the second timer, wrap it, timer will clear within 1/4 of a car length.
Wilson to Halsey St--wrap it.
Halsey to Myrtle Av--wrap it to 23 mph, can go as high as 26 (bs), coast, timer at 23 will clear within 1 car length, wrap it after clear.
Myrtle to DeKalb Av--wrap it to 31 mph, timer at the edge of DeKalb will clear within 1/4 of a car length. Or keep the train wrapped all the way (bs).
DeKalb to Jefferson St--wrap it to 15 mph, coast, all timers will clear with room to spare, wrap it.
Jefferson to Grand St--wrap it
Grand to Graham Av--two points leaving Grand, when approaching the timer prepare to stop the train at the timer as it is very slow to clear. No more than 10 mph into Graham.
Graham to Lorimer St--two points to 16 mph, coast, first timer will clear with room to spare, halfway to second timer give two points, second timer will clear within 1 car length, wrap it.
Lorimer to Bedford Av--wrap it.
Bedford to 1 Av (tube)--wrap it to 24 mph, can go as high as 27 mph (bs), at 39 mph (41 for bs) wrap it, third timer will clear within 1 car length, fourth timer will clear within 1/4 of a car length. Average speed-48 mph.
1 Av to 3 Av--wrap it.
3 Av to Union Sq--wrap it to 20 mph, coast, timer at Union Sq will clear within 1/2 of a car length, wrap it into station.
Union Sq to 8 Av--wrap it. Entering 8 Av, go through station timers at 7 mph.
Southbound to Canarsie:
8 Av to 1 Av--wrap it.
1 Av to Bedford Av (tube)--wrap it to the green signal before the timer area, coast, when first timer clears within 1/2 of a car length, wrap it the rest of the way. Timers will clear within 1/2 of a car length. Average speed-52 mph. Or for (bs), instead of coasting at the first green, keep it wrapped to the yellow then coast. You won't see the timers clear but they will. Average speed (bs)-56 mph.
Bedford to Lorimer St--wrap it to 20 mph, coast, timer will clear within 1 car length, maintain 20 mph speed limit into station.
Lorimer to Graham Av--wrap it.
Graham to Grand St--leave station at 1 point until timer at edge of station clears, two points after clear to 10 mph, blind timer on curve parallel to the R in "Revs" painted on wall. For the blind timer and the timer after that, maintain 8-9 mph. For the final timer keep your train under control and be prepared to stop. When final timer clears, enter Grand at 18 mph.
Grand to Montrose Av--wrap it to 24 mph, coast, timer will clear within 1/2 of a car length.
Montrose to Morgan Av--wrap it to 20 mph speed limit, coast, resume at the R.
Morgan to Jefferson St--wrap it to the top of the hill. Reduce speed to 20 mph then coast, timer will clear within 1/2 of a car length, wrap it after clear.
Jefferson to Bushwick/Aberdeen--wrap it.
Bushwick to Bway Jct--wrap it to the signal box one car length short of Bway Jct, coast to timer while train loses speed on hill, timer will clear within 1/2 of a car length. Warning: be very aware leaving Bushwick. If the first elevated automatic is yellow, the home signal one car length past the automatic will be red. Hit the home ball and you're toast.
Bway Jct to Atlantic Av--two points to 14 mph. maintain speed down hill for timers to clear.
Atlantic to Sutter Av--wrap it, approaching timer area reduce speed to 15 mph and maintain that speed for timers to clear.
Sutter to Livonia Av--wrap it to 18 mph, coast, home ball timer will clear after you pass the yellow automatic, wrap it after clear. If you do any more than 18 mph, the home ball will not clear.
Livonia to New Lots Av--wrap it.
New Lots to E 105 St--wrap it to 17 mph, coast, when approaching timer keep train under control, wrap it after clear. Warning: make sure that both the automatic timer and the home ball are both clear. These two signals are very erratic to the point where the automatic will be green while the home ball stays red! Also don't trust that timer, always keep your train under control until the timer clears ahead.
E 105 to Rockaway Pkwy--normal speed to station timers, pass timers at 7 mph.
So that's it. Time to go to work now. Next time I'll go over how to work the 60th Street tube timers.
Thanks Zman!
As always, I look forward to the next installment...
We COULD make this into a video installment..
Thanx! My next installment has already been posted.
Thanks for the fascinating info! I'm sure glad I'm only a railfan looking out the front window! I've been riding the 14th St Canarsie off and on since the Multi days (c. 1946).
Your welcome Victor. Next time you're on the L, go to the window and see for yourself. You'll know if you have a "regular" T/O within the first couple of timers.
After working 4 round trips on the L today, I clenched my cheeks more than the people using the "Buns of Steel" video!
Hahahaha ...
Say, what were those Multis like, anyway? Did you really have to "hang on", as the signs suggested?
Thanks for that treat, bro! Been a long time since I've had throttle time and that reminded me of why my hair turned color at such an early age. :)
Oh really? I thought that you were using "Reverse Grecian Formula"! :)
Anything to help Sel. I still remember when you posted your first messages regarding your old operating days. It was like reading a book that you couldn't put down. By far those were the best messages I've ever read on this forum!
Thank ya! Heh. That's all she wrote though - I've shot my wad here. Wouldn't want to get redundant after all. I've been pestering my wife to find this picture of me from back then when I was a conductor to post here - the old 70's "ta bloo soot" uniform with handy tie, asleep on the snow covered tracks at Coney waiting for my ride, fast asleep, head on the third rail board and all dreaming good thoughts of getting a consist that wouldn't lay down before leaving the terminal. We'll find it yet and post it ... "things NOT to do at Stillwell" ... heh.
Find it! I'm sure some of my co-workers will get a kick out of it!
Will pester the wife again in the morning ... I *know* we still have it but it's packed away somewhere. We've been in this house for three years now - well, you know how it is ... it's a sickie ... dispatch had a canary when I showed it around and of course the obligatory lecture of "you know there's 600 DC right next to your head, don't you?" Of course, in my own inimitable style, reminded him that it was the only way I was allowed to get a good buzz on. He didn't get the joke. Some folks just don't have a sense of humor. :)
That's definitely worth a rim shot.
Ya know what's funny about it all? Jay St actually believed they were running the railroad ... which was news to Stillwell. Boy did I get my butt chewed for what's in that picture, especially after showing it around down there. The TMO rose four feet in the air when he saw it and started pouring smoke like an electrical closet on the IRT. Will see about digging out the picture and posting it. I'm sure it will amuse many here. I mean what else are ya gonna do at 4:30am when you're still waiting for your car assignment?
1971 was an amusing time at the "ta" ... so little functioned and so many had absolutely no sense of humor and I had packed with a genuine bunch of cutups including a conductor that would read the newspaper on the PA whenever he got a 32 or 44 to the geese. And would tell you more than you ever wanted to know about the next stop ... despite the hassles, the railroad was actually FUN at the time ... it was the only way to get through a day there.
Here ya go, as promised ... sorry the quality of the image has gone to hell in precisely 30 years from the time it was taken but here's what I looked like when I was on the railroad ... waiting for my ride. Got my rump chewed "bigtime" for doing this ...
Kids! Do NOT try this at home! Only TRAINS should be laid up in the yard. :)
the pic is a hoot! you are one brave S.O.B...
Well ... before anyone gets stupid and tries to reproduce it with their mug in the shot ... I was born and raised in the Bronx and learned very young not to do truly stupid things (I'm still here after all) ... if you take a good look at the picture, it's actually an optical trick combining a low camera angle from the next track.
If you note, my shoulders are NOT on the rail and folks on the railroad know it would have to be to actually have rested my head on the cover. I was actually 24 inches away from the third rail but the angle makes it LOOK like my head's on it. It ain't. You never know when a jacob's ladder's gonna shoot across and I wasn't taking any chances. But it sure does LOOK that way, enough to fool the folks I was working for at the time. Made a lot of hairs stand on end but not mine. :)
Does Sallam's new video show this ? i havent checked this far into the video yet.
Have you got any photos of yourself assuming the position?
Sadly no, and no cab shots either. That one was taken by a coworker and he gave me a copy of it. You don't think of taking pictures of yourself at work usually ... at least I didn't. But had it not been for a wisea$$ bud of mine, that one wouldn't exist either. He wanted me to do something stupid for the camera and well ... that's what I did. :)
[Warning: make sure that both the automatic timer and the home ball are both clear. These two signals are very erratic to the point where the automatic will be green while the home ball stays red! Also don't trust that timer, always keep your train under control until the timer clears ahead.]
Additional info to add: track and/or signal workers were working over by that home ball (P1-65 I think) right past the timer on Thursday. I believe the trackage over there was recently re-tamped and more ballast was added because trains no longer "bottom out" when they touch ground from the New Lots El structure. It's a nice smooth ride now (no more bouncing) as the train roars into E.105th Street.
Nice post zman!
BMTman
Funny you should mention that, the signal maintainers forgot to remove their orange warning flag when they left. Trains kept whistling (including mine) until dark.
Gee, zman, I was going to tease you for having to work the L Canarsie Line this week instead of being on your beloved Queens Boulevard Line. But I see you're having too much fun. So much for that.
Why you got to be such a spoilsport? :-)
Sorry bout that Dogg. To make it better for ya, I had to go PM's for two weeks after having AM's for 10 weeks. You can tease me on that!
BTW, hope the C is treating you iiiiight!
For the last couple of weekends, the C has been great! There have been no E trains to get in my way. Been getting up to the terminals on time, even a few minutes hot! And because I didn't have to worry about the E, I was able to get in front of the B at 59th.
But alas, all good things come to an end sooner or later. The E will be back, and I'll be miserable again.
Story of my life. :-(
Consider the A or a two tripper on the C next pick.
But if I were you I'd go VR next pick. You'll have nothing but weekends off all summer (I don't know how much time you have Dogg, but if you've got 3+ years as a C/R, you'll have weekends for the whole pick). Also you'll get Memorial Day, July 4th and Labor Day off. Guaranteed! And you could hook up one week FS rdo's and the next week SM rdo's and get AVA's for TW and voila! A week off in July/August!!
If you don't need an absolute fixed schedule, GO VR!! I wouldn't steer ya wrong. I'm VR and I'll be staying VR for a long time to come.
I did work VR for one pick, zman. It was in the winter when all the rookies go on vacation so I got alot of T/W, W/T and T/F off. The only time I got weekends off was when no one wanted to work the four trippers on the E for 11 hours pay. Most of the time they put me extra, which I hate with a passion.
I guess it's worth considering. I do like the C, but I'm tired of the hassles that come with it. If I can get a decent file number on the VR list, I'll definitely consider it. Thanks, buddy.
Trust me. The winter VR and summer VR are two totally different things.
I was #70 out of 70 on the winter VR list as a C/R in 1985. I did pretty well even though some weeks I was extra.
There will be no worrying about being extra in the summer that's for sure. I'll lay $20 to a donut on that.
Make that 1995.
I was gonna say, zman, you got all of that time under your belt and you went VR instead getting a pick job? LOL
I don't know about the C line now. They done went crazy this week. Zero tolerance. They've taken several conductors out of service for improper announcements, and being in the cab between stations with the cab door closed. No warnings issued. Just out of service and to Labor Relations.
Ah, yes. There's nothing quite like the feeling of a noose being tightened around one's neck, now is there?
Queens Blvd would be a good line to have one of these "Zman descriptions."
Beat you to it. See part 3 which has been already posted.
I'll give you my take on how I go through the 60th St tubes northbound. After I get to the GT 50 sign, I let it coast to signal G272 then wrap it up. I should warn you if you are operating the N southbound, beware of that last timer. You cannot see it until the last second. If there is some moisture on the roadbed, you can see the reflection of the signal aspect. I haven't worked the L for about 4 years. I operated through the timers basically the same way you do except I'm a little slower in the tubes. That timer southbound at the junction must be new. I don't recall it being there the last time I was on the line.
>>>That timer southbound at the junction must be new. I don't recall it being there the last time I was on the line.<<<
You're right. It was installed over the past year and serves absolutely no purpose except to be a pain in the a** as it's in the vicinity of the 4 car marker after going up hill.
Hint.
If you don't already, use some windex or other cleaner on your head lights. Get every bit of candlepower out of them. Some come with crud that deminishes the available light.
avid
???
Do you even realize the severity of the penalties today for running red signals to the point one can lose their handles for 6 months for passing one? What happens to you during an efficiency test if you pass one? A demotion that the union can't do squat about. Newer signal systems in the IRT and BMT will record infractions of key-bys and over runs, and while RTO is going to have to explain the lateness, signal department has them under lock and key. If you aren't banged in, it could come back to haunt the TW/O. No T/O should be encouraging anyone with calculated formulas as how to cheat signal timing. Furthermore, the Canarsie Line used to be 3 trips before equipment overhauls. By arbitrarily cutting running time, you are encouraging the TA to cut the time altogether. They did it at Woodlawn when the R62s came out replacing slower equipment and we couldn't put it in coast. The speedometers can be misleading and if you are only allowing half a car for a signal to clear, you do not have the desire to retain the job that used to be the best in the city. We are going to have our hands full with these off the street personnel, don't demoralize the little we have. If you can't slow it down, don't encourage others to speed up. This place is going to hell and discipline is going up even with ND in place, we can't represent those who just act foolishly.
>>>What happens to you during an efficiency test if you pass one?<<<
All the L ine TSS's have said than when an efficiency test is conducted, it will not be on one of the timers.
>>>Newer signal systems in the IRT and BMT will record infractions of key-bys and over runs<<<
Don't have to worry about that here! The signal system is so old that most of the "red with lunar white" timers don't have lunar white aspects!
>>>By arbitrarily cutting running time, you are encouraging the TA to cut the time altogether<<<
It's extremely difficult to run early on the L as the running times are already cut to the bone. It's been 37 minutes from end to end ever since I entered the B division in 1994. With a fast T/O and C/R, you MAY be 2 minutes early.
BTW, you know who teaches the personnel how to operate this way? The L line TSS's themselves! That's how I learned and any new T/O will be schooled on their first day on the L by the line TSS as to how to work the timers as well. It is encouraged as there is no room for error on the schedule. Lose two minutes and it's gone forever.
I strongly suggest that you take a ride on the L to see for yourself.
BTW, you know who teaches the personnel how to operate this way? The L line TSS's themselves! That's how I learned and any new T/O will be
schooled on their first day on the L by the line TSS as to how to work the timers as well. It is encouraged as there is no room for error on the schedule. Lose two minutes and it's gone forever.
That's great. But if they want me to operate that way - charging up to timers that clear half a car lenght ahead of me - I want it in writing over their names! That way, on the day when Signals does something to the timer and I hit it, I can prove I was operating according to written directives. Too many times since coming out, I've had TSSes tell me to wrap it up in places where the speed restrictions won't let me. If something happens when I follow their suggestions, but they are not there with me, I hang for it! The TA won't care if TSS ???? said I could wrap it leaving South Ferry - the signs say 10 mph leaving and then a 15 mph into Rector St. When I was in School Car for the R142 training, we were going south from Union Sq to Bklyn Bridge - through a '25 Miles' area, when the TSS pushed my controller to max (with a Supt watching) and told me I was going to slow. I pointed out the sign and was told it was wrong. Asked for it in writing and was given a blank stare. So we went back to 25.
As for schedules, most of them are too tight. When I came out in '97 as a CR, running time on the 2 between rush hours was 90 minutes (some runs during rush hrs were up to 96 min). Now they are down to 86 minutes. To compensate for the reduced run time, MORE timers have been added and we have been given trains that NEED more dwell time in each station. Schedules be damned! I'll get to White Plains when I get there, and not one minute sooner! Yesterday, my 0704 Flatbush left at 0700. By the time we left Nevins St, we were on time for our regular leaving time; by the time we left Manhattan, we had lost another five minutes and then we had a sick passenger at Mott. I dumped the train at White Plains at 0843 - 10 minutes late from normal, 14 for this trip. The TD, ATD And Line Supt didn't even ask what happened, because it is such a regular thing.
Alex, you sound like a good candidate for a steward. If your interested I can get you contacts. We are looking for 300 to make the place safer not faster. If the TA wanted trains to go faster, they would have left the field shunting alone. Zman, to have a TSS tell you how to operate and to encourage anyone to break the rules is one who should be monitored closely, not obeyed in the same of the TA's idea of efficiency. T/Os break in students, not TSSs. I brought this up in a posting 188915 for off the street T/Os that I prefer the one to break in new employees to be one who runs the road 5 days a week, not one who thinks he/she knows it because he/she is a supervisor. You seem to have more excuses for management. If the lunar white isn't there on the L line, why are you expecting it to clear? If the running time is inefficient, tell the Supt in a G2 but by now, I'm sure it is too late if you are a regular. This isn't your fault you weren't properly broken in but do you think for a minute if the TSS told you they won't be efficiency tested at a timer that they won't write you up if you pass one anyway? The TSS will deny everything you state he/she said. I was at arbitration while an RTO Superintendant blatently LIED about car movement consists in his yard during the attempted termination of a T/O allegedly involved in a collision that occured in his yard. Understand the TSSs are on the company side, which is to move trains safely and "efficiently" from one point to another. If you pass a red signal, you aren't safe and you aren't efficient. Effiency can be dabated at the step hearings, the safety violations usually can not. They can and will write you up for unsafe actions because you can cost supervisors their jobs if they "know" and fail to act. If you are late at the terminal, you usually have an excuse, and even if you don't, it should get tossed out anyway. You are in violation for running early, you have the excuses to run behind. Otherwise, Zman, I will meet your aquaintance at the step 1 hearing in the future.
As a customer & TO wanabee I recently have enjoyed just such a ride on the L with a female TO (who was pushing the red lights all the way under the East River) and, who gave me a big smile at Carnarsie as we exited & I said "nice ride, thanks", BUT it sounds like the Zman is playing with fire and getting some good advice from his colleague.
Mr t__:^)
I fully understand where Mr. Engine Brake is coming from.
But schedule wise I'm now off the Canarsie Line and have no immediate plans to go there for a while. I'd rather work out of Jamaica or Forest Hills as they are much closer to home. Heck, I actually walk 15 minutes to Jamaica Center.
Though you've got to admit, it's kinda fun to watch the L via the railfan window isn't it?
My recent ride was in a Slant 40 ... plunty of room for my grandson to stand in front of me & the BMTman to see too.
Mr t__:^)
Best part of the whole ride next to the tunnel are those two 90 degree curves somewhere in the Graham/Montrose area.
It really is a shame that morale has gone so low down here. I enjoyed my time going through what Zman enjoys even when grade timers were a lot slower then. Central Park West on an R10 was not only fun as a passenger but even more so in the pilots chair. Yesterday, the ACTO directed all field supervision to write up anything. They took three of my guys O/S on the B and D for improper announcements. Utter BULLS**T cost 3 conductors discipline and a day's pay. I used to like traveling but now I endorse otherwise. Keep it in mind if your operator seems a little slower then usual.
Our recent ride on the "B" speaks to that, i.e. the operator wanted to talk & give us a railfan kind of ride ... in a Hippo no less. He knew where all the "suits" and cameras were AND knew of one curve without timers where he could make the Hippo lean over as she spead thru it.
I've been very fortunate to meet a lot of very nice operators. My secret is: bring my grandson, show respect & be polite. Once they see you're not a foamer they usually open up. Each operator is different though, e.g. I'm remembering the one on the 1/9 who didn't open the door or talk to us the whole run, but while we were waiting for a signal just before 242nd Street he was playing peek-a-boo with my grandson.
Mr t__:^)
It's nice to know there are T/Os who enjoyed the R-10 joyride up CPW as much as railfans like myself. Those were the good old days, all right...
So it was YOU at the helm of #4399! What a rocket ride!
Simon and I thank you from the bottom of our hearts (and stomachs).
wayne
Sorry Wayne, but I had #4389 leaving 8th Avenue at 5:47 pm on Monday. You probably had one of the other "regulars".
You gotta love the combination of Slants and the Canarsie line. These two were made for each other. I've had some T/O's play it conservatively going through the 14th Street tube, others like to let it all hang out, charging the timers at 50MPH. I prefer the latter, especially if it's a Slant or an R40M.
wayne
I agree, Wayne!
BMTman
That ride we had last October was pretty good, too. Of course, we ended up doing BMT standard impressions as we started the uphill climb. Imitating the descending bull and pinion gear pitch the standards used to exhibit as they labored up that grade.
Say what you want, but I still associate the BMT standards with the L.
Great write up..kinda gives you the feel of the motorman..I've always just been a railfan (formerly known as buff) looking out of the front window..now I'll think twice about the motorman's experience..anyway I'll be checking for future postings..
FASCINATING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would strongly encourage continuing on!!!!
Thanx.
Numbers 2 and 3 have already been posted.
Just click on "change display style/killfile" in the SubTalk lobby and ask for the prior few days posts and you'll get them.
Does anyone know of a web site with maps of NYC trolley routes ofr the period prior to WWII. I am more interested in outer-borough maps than Manhattan maps. Thanks.
I know a few exist, but I don't remember the addresses...mpk0, maybe this heading will attract more replies.
Try: for the BQT lines.
Was doing some railfanning with that BMTman from Brooklyn on Sunday.
Saw lots of tie/continous rail cars on Central Branch at Garden City. Bet those NIMBYs are upset about LIRR using that track for anything. Also saw that freight yard at the end, at Mitchel Field, is being taken up. Wonder where the circus will park next year ?
Also saw Engine 35 & other cars that they have parked across from LI Bus depot (two LIRR coaches, two hacks).
Mr t__:^)
On some discussion on reviving old ROWS, I have said that this one should be used fo passenger service as it was along time ago. I thought of using it as a way to get to Roosevelt Field, thus relieving car usage, or even extending to Nassau Community College area and making a station there for commuters at the school and the surrounding offices.
Was anything ever done with the old Roosevelt Raceway. I donn't get by there very often. The last time I was near there I think it showed partial demolition.
I've always considered that , Aquduct or Belmont Prime Domed Statium sites.
Highways , trains and transit.
Bring the Superbowl to Nu Yawk!
avid
Was anything ever done with the old Roosevelt Raceway. I donn't get by there very often. The last time I was near there I think it showed partial demolition.
Most of the area has been redeveloped for big-box retail. Target and Wally World are there, some others too. Part of the old grandstand structure still remains.
I would guess that the Engine #35 folks thought it would be a grand spot to run their steamer back & forth ... that is until the NIMBYs told them where to go ... I don't think THEY said Oyster Bay though.
Even where #35 is now, by the hangers, they had the potential to run it back & forth.
BTW, have you seen the RxR station that's a fire house now on the Central Branch ... the nice part is that they saved it as a RxR station, just added a big roll up door in the back to get the trucks in & out.
Mr t__:^)
There's a few industrial buildings behind the LIRR Central Branch in Garden City and was curious if anyone knew whether or not New York & Atlantic Railway made any regular/irregular deliveries to any of the businesses back there?
BMTman
So how are things with the subways and commuter rail with the snow?
Around 11am the snow really picked up here, with heavy, huge flakes.
It's been snowing quite briskly now, sticking to the roads and surfaces. About at least 2 inches in Sea Cliff so far.
3.5 inches on the ground as of 5:30pm in Sea Cliff. The roads are quite slushy. The sidewalks, forgettaboutit!!! Apparently most people in Sea Cliff don't know what a shovel is.
I'm sure gonna wish they never tore up those trolley tracks when I walk to get some chinese food later!
Greetings fellow railfans!! Now that they are in regular service does anyone know where I can get or view an updated service schedule for the R142/R142A trains?
There is no schedule since the testing is over and the cars are accepted for delivery. The schedule was for each of the test trains.
They do run on schedules but they can change. The pinstrip 142 can be seen M-F at Gun Hill Road at 13:28 going SB.
I have talked to several engineers and they say some trains relay at Jamaica and go to NY-Penn. These are the EMU's sitting at Hall tower outside Jamaica's track 8. They relay and then go to track 1 or 2, and then head into the main line to Penn. What was interesting was I stood at 153rd and archer to catch the Q84 bus today when I saw a Train relay. The eastbound end had its headlights on, along with the 2 head lights on top(what engineers call foglights). what was interesting was I saw the headlights and foglights on on the westbound end, but the engineer had them on still on the eastbound end as well! The Train had its headlights on at the same time on both ends!
Are those trains "in service" going to Penn, for connections from diesel lines like the Oyster Bay?
Just sa this on the Times websiteSYRACUSE, N.Y. (AP) -- An Amtrak passenger train ran into a freight train Monday, injuring 68 people, four critically.
In addition to those critically injured, an additional 11 of the injuries were considered serious, said Phil Politano, spokesman for Rural Metro Ambulance. And 53 people were ``walking wounded with bumps and bruises,'' said Tim Hall, the fire chief from the Syracuse suburb of Lyncourt.
Some of the victims were lying on stretchers near the tracks after the 11:50 a.m. crash. Politano said 31 people were taken to hospitals.
No cars derailed when the trains crashed in an industrial area north of the city, said Robert Sullivan, a spokesman for CSX Corp.
The eastbound Amtrak train had just left the Syracuse station when it hit the back end of the CSX train, which was on the same set of tracks heading east, Sullivan said.
The 92-car CSX train was apparently moving slowly when it was struck, Sullivan said. Light snow was falling at the time of the accident.
There was no immediate comment from Amtrak.
Gotta love Amtrak. How on earth does an Amtrak train manage to do this.
Oh yeah, that's right, no cab signals.
68 injuries - pretty much the whole train? So much for FRA safety standards.
Funny thing is, the LIRR's been cab signaled for half a century or so and hasn't had a major rear ender in about as long.
But we all know cab signalling is an expensive, uneeded, worthless thing.
Even still, how on earth does an Amtrak tran manage to rear end a freight train. They don't just pop up out of nowhere...
Cab signals might not have have made much of a differance. The collission occured at 5-10 mph which is well with in the 20 mph limit imposed by a Restricting cab signal aspect. There were 98 passengers and 4 crew on board. This accident is too bizzare for me to make further comment at this time, but I am sure that I'll disagree with whatever conclusions Phil makes.
Restricting is 15mph, I thought?
Anyway, 68 injured for a 10mph collision is pathetic. But then, the energy's gotta go *somewhere*. If it's not going into deforming the structure, it's going somewhere lse.
Restricted speed is 15 mph inside interlocking limits, 20 mph outside and you must be able to stop short of obstructions.
Also there weren't really 68 people injured. 54 of those didn't even need medical attention.
>Restricted speed is 15 mph inside interlocking limits, 20 mph outside and
> you must be able to stop short of obstructions.
Which, for whatever reason, this crew wasn't able to. I'm still at a loss as to how a train gets in the way of another like that, but it's not Slamtrak and Chemical Spill eXperts for nothing....
>Also there weren't really 68 people injured. 54 of those didn't even need
> medical attention.
And, 12 that did? On an Amtrak train? This isn't like the LIRR where there's 1,000 or so over 12 cars.
It'd be interesting to see how an M-series would do under the same conditions, but I bet you $5 that it a)wouldn't have hit the rear of the freight at the same speed, due to their superior braking ability (guess why...) and b) assuming the same passenger load, there would be less injury, assuming same interior layout, people standing / sitting, etc. Guess why, again.
You'd have more dammage to the cars though. But that's not really a Bad thing, as in an accident, it's better to dammage the equipment than people. That's why automobiles have "crumple zones" , and even relatively high speed accidents are surviveable today...
>Restricted speed is 15 mph inside interlocking limits, 20 mph outside and
> you must be able to stop short of obstructions.
Which, for whatever reason, this crew wasn't able to. I'm still at a loss as to how a train gets in the way of another like that, but it's not Slamtrak and Chemical Spill eXperts for nothing....
>Also there weren't really 68 people injured. 54 of those didn't even need
> medical attention.
And, 12 that did? On an Amtrak train? This isn't like the LIRR where there's 1,000 or so over 12 cars.
It'd be interesting to see how an M-series would do under the same conditions, but I bet you $5 that it a)wouldn't have hit the rear of the freight at the same speed, due to their superior braking ability (guess why...) and b) assuming the same passenger load, there would be less injury, assuming same interior layout, people standing / sitting, etc. Guess why, again.
You'd have more dammage to the cars though. But that's not really a Bad Thing (tm), as in an accident, it's better to dammage the equipment than people. That's why automobiles have "crumple zones" , and even relatively high speed accidents are surviveable today...
Next, you'll be asking for seat belts. Should Amtrak be required to install seat belts? Maybe little lights that go on above the seats whenever the engineer decides to take a nap?
Opinions?
It does seem rather unbelievable that a freight train would just appear out of nowhere. The National Weather Service did report that light snow was falling in the Syracuse area at the time of the crash, and those familiar with that area know that there can be patches of intense snowfall in certain areas. Still...
As far as the injury count goes, there were apparently 4 critical. As for the other 64, I'd imagine that some percentage of them are truly injured and that some percentage has realized that if you spring up, dust yourself off and pronounce "I'm OK!!!" you don't stand much of a chance of earning yourself a settlement check.
Didn't the LIRR have a rear-end collision at Lynbrook about 20 years ago (on the eastbound Long Beach track if I remember correctly -- both trains were empty). I don't know that it would be classified as major, though.
CG
I believe the LIRR had some sort of collision/bumper hit on the long beach branch, around the time the M-1s came on line. I think the cause was sliding due to a weed control agent on the tracks. In any case, it was a very low speed one. last major collision on the LIRR or MN I can recall was the early 80's one on the New Haven line where one empty train rear ended another at speed. I've never seen pics, but I hear it was messy, resulting in 1 or 2 deaths. Fortunately, it's the only data point on how the M series does in a major accident. If I'm lazy one of these days, I'll see if i can get the NTSB's report on it from them...
Just what Amtrak needs: another accident.
Another accident? When was the last big one? I don't think anyone has died on an Amtrak train due to a crash since 1997.
"I don't think anyone has died on an Amtrak train due to a crash since 1997."
1999 crash of the "City of New Orleans" at Bourbonnais, IL. Of course, that wasn't Amtrak's fault (damned impatient truck driver), but 11 Amtrak passengers died nonetheless.
That's the crash I was refering to. I thought that was in 1997. My bad.
Right now, I would rather Amtrak have no new negative publicity whatsoever, with its budget on the rocks and its flagship Acela's recent service entry late and well-publicized as such.
If Amtrak is squished, what's the alternative? Gray running mutt? They crash FAR more often with higher casualties ... and of course that great "bus game" ... "guess the psychosis of your seatmate." As long as there's Greyhound, Amtrak still has a shot at survival.
I saw video of the rear-ender and while the toilet in the cab will need adjusting, it looks like the collision was well under 5 MPH. The F-40 definitely needs a nose job though.
well under 5 MPH. The F-40 definitely needs a nose job though.
The F-40's itsn't going to get it. That locomotive just opted for early retirement. The F40 replacements are already being delivered so this just makes the retirement selection process that much easier.
Heh. Wonder if Branford or TMNY needs a loco ... talked to one of my buddies over in Rensselaer and word is there was no frame damage at all, impact speed WAS under 5MPH ... CSX apparently did NOT have a flasher on the end of the freight and for reasons unknown, the signals indicated that that particular block was NOT occupied. NTSB is already there. I'd say CSX has some 'splaining to do, Lucy ...
You're telling me there was a FALSE CLEAR?!?!?!
That's the chatter on the pipe at the moment. Not a false clear - that's the land of the dwarfs out there - but it was allegedly YELLOW and not RED or may have been entirely absent. I've seen situations where a red ball has appeared to be yellow owing to sunlight hitting it the wrong way but the sun wasn't out in Syracuse. And only light snow. I assume there will be more on this but the guys in the Rensselaer barn are wondering how it could have happened as well. A good argument for cab signalling if the signal problem was a visual rather than electrical one. It's not like the dwarf was buried in snow though.
Well a single Yellow light on a dwarf means a RESTRICTING aspect. If the CSX didn't have a flasher and with the falling snow the Amtrak train might have simply missed the tail end untill it was to late.
Yep ... agreed ... but all I'm hearing is the usual chatter, certainly nothing I would take as FACT ... that's what NTSB is for and that'll take a while. Restricting is the maximum aspect displayed there until you hit the homeball east of there ... it was just outside the SYR station where it happened right along the thruway ... but ya gotta wonder how the eastbound got into the block in the first place just the same. And also why they didn't just switch the Amtrak onto the adjacent track to run around the freight ... plenty of interlocking there, no waiting ...
Actually, 18 F40's (numbered 350 and up) belonging to the Intercity CBU are being/to be cherry-picked and rebuilt for continued service. That 18 number was scaled back from 23 when they expanded the current Genesis order. They all run out of Chicago. The ones now in the Empire Corridor and north of New Haven aren't among them.
I am surprised an F40 was on that train. Normally the Maple Leaf is the only F40 assigned out of Albany as the VIA Rail crews aren't qualified on the Genesis, although they are on the Dash-8's, which run out of Chicago on the International.
This is the Chicago line where it occurred and definitely an F-40 - I'd know that nose anywhere and we had pictures of the wreck here on the local Albany stations since the Syracuse stations have a cooperative news coverage arrangement with their own network affils here in Smallbany ... I guess the toilet's gone on that one. :)
Absolutely! I prefer Amtrak to Greyhound wherever their lines coincide. Even the tightest of Amfleet I coach seats are much preferable what Greyhound offers. I was just stating the not very favorable press AMtrak has received in recent months.
>If Amtrak is squished, what's the alternative? Gray running mutt?
How about the free market running rail, where it makes sense?
Back in 1972 the free market determined that rail didn't make sence anywhere. It's still true today unless I am mistaken that all passenger services require a subsudy.
"Back in 1972 the free market determined that rail didn't make sence anywhere. It's still true today unless I am mistaken that all passenger services require a subsudy."
not as much of a subsudy as roads have
Hell ... the roads are nothing compared to the airline subsidies these days and THEY can't turn much of a profit. If the feds were willing to give ME equivalency for route miles as they do for the airlines, I'd be happy to take NEC and run Shinsanken on there, laughing all the way to the bank.
But alas, without $45 per trip per carried passenger, nobody's going to be breaking down the door to run a railroad. That's why the whole world over, they're either run by government or contracted out to others by government. Ain't no money in an obsolete form of transportation - that's why this is.
And in relating this to the airline situation, make all railroad right of ways absolutely tax exempt everywhere, and then you might see some private industry take up NEC service while all other lines were abandoned outright. Many studies have been done on this and the conclusions are all the same - the NEC might break even, all other lines would die within weeks.
NTSB spokesman says the engineer misread the signal. AP story in Wednesday's Times.
I am looking to put together a regional transit information site. Any ideas on special features that I should consider?
What region?
My last few posts in response to the "Electric Buses are Junk" thread might seem to contradict each other, so before you start putting too much faith in my opinion (since all great books contradict each other - look at the Bible) let me dispell any myths that I might be smarter than I look by expressing my opinion on each of the modes and what they're good for.
BUS, DIESEL/CNG: Diesel has better acceleration, while CNG isn't nearly as stinky. As far as I'm concerned, it's a toss of the dice. The diesel or CNG bus can be adapted to virtually anywhere and as such should be the mode of choice in Suburban areas. Routing will change frequently in suburban areas as new shopping centers, employment centers, etc spring up and the kind of transport that is needed is one which can adapt to these changes easily. It is also the best choice for low-ridership corridors in cities - as maintaining the trolley infrastructure is not worth the ridership. Seattle uses this approach. Up on the top of Captiol hill, the packed 7/9 route uses Trolley wire. At the foot of the hill, the 70, 72, 73, etc routes use Trolley wire. ANd halfway up the hill is the #25, a little-used route that runs on Diesel every 30-60 minutes. Why? No one rides it, so it's not worht the wire.
BUS, ELECTRIC: Electric buses are a reliable and speedy option to diesel on established corridors in cities, and they're the ONLY way to go when you've got hills thrown into the mix. Forget anything that runs on rails - if you're dealing with grades over 5% it's not a good idea and over 9% is impossible. Diesel and CNG buses have to gear way down to head up steep grades. You crawl up the hill at 10-15mph watching cars pass you - it's not a fun experience. Trolleybuses are way overpowered, which makes them EXCELLENT for hills. In Seattle you best be sitting down, because it's gonna be a tough time holding onto the handrail while bouncing and swaying as you zoom up the 20% grade on Queen Anne hill at over 40mph. Don't worry about lane-changing. Seattle-style trolley wires (the best there are) are installed directly over the stripes BETWEEN lanes making either one usable. Six-lane and up streets are virtually nonexistent anywhere around here so that's no big deal. If you've got hills then you need trolleys. Those little electric buses HAUL @$$ and I've never been able to be a standee without holding the rails with both hands.
STREETCAR: Established corridors, flat terrain. What do I mean by streetcar? I mean a LRV that operates primarily in mixed traffic, perhaps with seperate lanes in congested areas. Stops are around every 1/4 mile. Portland Streetcar is a prime example of what I mean. It's simply the nicest and best option for a flat corridor, and it looks cool too. Streetcar really isn't adapted to suburban life but for in-city routes it's the only way to go (assuming, of course, you don't have hills).
COMMUTER RAIL: When there's a freight line, that's it. Trying to build even a short new segment of commuter line is prohibitively expensive and disruptive, and there's no more obtrusive form of transport than a smelly, loud throbbing diesel-pulled commuter train rumbling along. BUT where there's a track, there's a way - and widening existing mains to accomodate more trains is perfectly acceptable.
HEAVY RAIL: As far as I'm concerned, the only practical use for heavy rail in this day and age is for expansion of existing systems. Cities that already have heavy rail systems (like NYC or SF with the BART) should keep on building it because they already have such a significant investment in it.
LIGHT RAIL: Light Rail is appropriate in the few cases where it is less expensive than monorail, or where monorail's elevated guideway would negatively affect the atmosphere of an area. Portland is a great example. The Westside line had an old railroad grade for almost its entire length, and converting this to light rail was the obvious and easy choice. Even with the West Hills tunnel (pret-E expensive) AND the freeway running, the Westside MAX still emerged with an average cost of 48 million a mile. In honest terms, this is about equal to a bare-bones monorail system - the tunnel would have cost the same if it was a monorail tunnel, thus making light rail cheaper than monoaril. Likewise, Portland's downtown plans call for all interaction to occur at street-level and thus anything that's elevated or underground would not be condusive to this goal.
MONORAIL: Just about EVERY urban-suburban medium and long haul route in existence. Monorail is incredibly versatile. Forget property aquisition - if you have to make a long curve monorail guideway just goes right over the top of buildings (the German auto repair shop is under a curve on our Seattle monorail and it works just great). Monorail's relatively narrow surface space (concrete piers that are 4-6 feet wide at the bottom) means it can drop into the median of most any existing freeway without having to rebuild any overpasses, interchanges, or anything else. Of course monorail can use subway tunnels too. Monorail is infinitely cheaper than elevated heavy rail and in many cases is cheaper than light rail, due to the high property aquisition costs associated with adding a 28-foot-wide swath of ROW (plus platforms) to an existing urban system. Monorail beams are unobstrusive compared to elevated heavy rail or elevated light rail. And last of all? Monorail is COOL. Light Rail bears more resemblance to Mr. Rogers' Trolley than anything else, while Monorail is straight out of the Jetsons. I'd say, until we invent cars that fold up into suitcases, I'll go with monorail.
-----------------------------------------------
THE MORAL OF THE STORY
-----------------------------------------------
All modes of transport have their place, but...
MONORAIL KICKS @$$
besides Monorails.org, there's also the Elevated Transportation Company's website. They're the people who are going to give Seattle our monorail. Elevated.org. Go check it out. Also try monorail.org, the citizen's advocacy group that calls for more monorails in SEattle.
Monorails are ugly and they're not real trains. They're good for Disney World.
They're good for Disney World.
Unfortunately, Walt Disney thought he was doing a GOOD thing by installing monorails at his parks. Instead, he gave them a connotation of being amusement-park-only, at least in the U.S. Transit monorails are in operation all over the world. I have nothing against LRT or heavy rail where appropriate, but you tell me: In a given corridor (not overall), if a monorail would be cheaper and faster than why not?
"In a given corridor (not overall), if a monorail would be cheaper and faster than why not?"
NIMBYs what is the difference between a monorail and an el anyway?
That's a good question. Is a monorail necessarily rubber-wheeled like the MTL metro? Is that what makes it quieter than an el? Or is it the single concrete column as oppeosed to a steel cage over the street?
It's both. Monorail is just a whoosh. Most residents along 5th avenue (several apartment buildings) say they can hear it with their windows open, they can't with them closed. Another big pro of monorail is that it doesn't cast a dark shadow on the earth below. You're looking at two relatively low-profile concrete beams supported by a single pier as opposed to a huge "steel cage" as you described it. Not to dis an els - I think they're hella fun to ride and most have historic value, but in terms of new construction...
I can attest that monorails are quiet. At Disney, we stayed in the Contemporary (the hotel with the Monorail in it). If you weren't looking, they'd sneak up on you.
Forget property aquisition - if you have to make a long curve monorail guideway just goes right over the top of buildings (the German auto repair shop is under a curve on our Seattle monorail and it works just great).
But you still have to compensate property owners for their lost airspace, which is not free for the taking. And in a large city, the buildings are likely to be taller than the monorail, so it can't make huge-radius turns over the buildings themselves, unless maybe it went through them, like in DisneyWorld.
If monorails are so great, and the technology isn't that new, why is there only one system in the U.S.?
Because since they are cheaper and require less maintenance, companies won't make any money off of them. So they lobby the politicans to block them from being built. Houston's citizens voted 5 to 1 for a monorail, but the politicans there decided aganist it. What kind of bullshit is that?
I thought Houstonians liked living in one of the largest cities on Earth with no rail. So it's a big conspiracy then?
>>>I thought Houstonians liked living in one of the largest cities on Earth with no rail. So it's a big conspiracy then?<<<
No, that's just the politicians. We were this close to getting a small light rail line, but that was too much for Rob Todd of the Brat Pack fame. He and his army of lawyers got a judge to file an injunction and block the building of the rail line! We had the permission of the FREAKIN' city council and one prettyboy councilman can derail all of that! I hate this city!
(We had the permission of the FREAKIN' city council and one prettyboy councilman can derail all of that! I hate this city!)
Gee, that's exactly the sort of thing that happens in NYC, where one LAWYER can derail almost ANYTHING.
Lawyers only represent their clients.
Actually there is some conspiracy involved.
ALWEG, the company that invented the straddle-beam monorail in the 50s (all monorails before that were suspended), offered to build a monorail system for L.A. on a DBOM basis. Alweg would build it with their money, operate it, and once they had made a handsome profit they'd turn it over to Los Angeles. The L.A. politicians were hip to the idea until Standard Oil (everyone's favorite transit advocate) persauded them against it.
The reason there's no monorail in the US is because the technology came around in the 50s and 60s, when the automakers and oil companies practically had a monopoly on the transportation system in this country. Notice that with a couple of exceptions, NO new transit was built in this period. Futuristic monorail fell victim to the same forces that killed the old-fashioned streetcar. By the time transit ideas started to resurface in the 1970s, ALWEG had gone out of business and there simply wasn't anybody left to promote monorails in this country.
I understand there is monorail in Bangkok. Perhaps the rolemodel of America's West.
Kinda simple. Monorails might be quiet, non-intrusive, and all the other plaudits, but.....They are hell to switch.
You have to shift the whole beam. Even powered (which few are), they take 3-4 seconds to shift position. That kind of slowness kills them for more than a single route line.
Monorail-After riding the Seattle monorail, I was thoroghly pleased with it. I went to monorails.org and it convinced me that they are way better than light rail.
Heavy rail-It would be practical for more cities to build subways, but all the cities without them aren't really big enough for them. That brings up the point that you should get 'em while they are young. If subways were built in cities like Denver or Houston now, they would have a head start on the ridership base for when those cities really start to get big enough for them.
Light rail-After I converted to monorails, light rail really sucks. It might be good to have for travel between sort of dense nieghborhoods, but then again monorails could do the same thing.
Monorails don't have the capacity of heavy rail, so they aren't the best in really big, really dense cities. Then again we aren't building too many of those.
I'm also not sure how well they'd handle winter storms.
And the stations and their access are difficult to build and site.
On the other hand, if you have a rapidly-growing sunbelt metropolis, with lots of new commercial buildings going up that could be intergrated into Monorail stations, then I agree it is a good solution.
Monorails don't have the capacity of heavy rail, so they aren't the best in really big, really dense cities. Then again we aren't building too many of those.
Actually, monorails could be as big and as long as you like - it's just no one has built any in the U.S. with that capacity. But there's no reason why you couldn't make a monorail train 10+ cars long, and since the monorail guideway is more stable then conventional rail (please don't try to tell me that two teeny flanges are more secure than a huge-ass concrete beam) they can seat 5 or even 6 people across. In other words, if you REALLY wanted to carry a TON of people than monorail is the only technology that could. You're only looking at what's already been done in the U.S...look at Japan, and then INNOVATE. There's no reason we can't build bigger and better monorails than previously were built.
I'm also not sure how well they'd handle winter storms.
Well, for an Alweg-style straddle beam monorail (the kind used by Disney and Seattle), you have to heat the concrete. But if you have a climate with really horrendous winter storms (like NYC) then you might try the Safege system. It's a suspended monorail, with the bogies (you would call them trucks on a conventional train) running inside the beam. The first monorail to use this technology was in Shonan, Japan. Go here: http://monorails.org/tMspages/Shonan.html
You're very convincing, and I'm cautiously optimistic, however I find that overallegiance to any one particular mode of transit can be detrimental to the cause as a whole. Don't get me wrong, I loved Disney's monorail growing up, but never having ridden a succesful monorail transit system, I still have my doubts. But then every city is different, and I've never been to Seattle. I was living in Istnabul as they constructed their first heavy rail subway, which everyone had always said could never be done: both for the severe earthquakes, and for the archeological Pandora's Box of tunnelling through a city founded BC, and the capital of three empires. It took forever, but the first segment finally opened. Now they're entering the really old downtown, so I expect it could take a decade or more. Perhaps a monorail... but then it's way too dense for a monorail.
I actually like the other modes too - remember that my handle is spunky of LIGHT RAIL fame. It's just most people here already have seen heavy rail and light rail and know they work. I think that every mode has it's place, but it seems like most people are very unwilling to give monorail a try.
Monorail is basicslly a futuristic "el". It won't fit where people don't want to have an elevated structure darkening the sky.
IMHO electric buses are the way to go in most areas. For shorter routes with frequent trips a wire based system would do nicely. For more remote areas and less frequent trips battery powered buses would be ideal. These can be charged up using high powered chargers at the end of each route while the driver takes a break. A good charge could be done in a matter of minutes.
I would be in favor of monorails in densely traveled corridors. They don't have as much of a footprint on the land. I have not ridden one in many years but when I did I enjoyed it very much. I think it would do well on routes that don't get enough traffic to justify heavy rail.
I believe that most modes of public transportation should be electrified. I won't go into all the reasons here. In my own personal experience riding in electrified equipment was much more enjoyable. There's much better acceleration and no smoke.
As for something with high speed, conventional steel wheels on rails is best, electrically powered of course. The French and Japanese are experts at this. The ideal route is Los Angeles to Las Vegas, lots of open desert. It would take a lot of airplanes out of the sky. Los Angeles to San Francisco would be ideal too. Build at least a 1000MW powerplant dedicated to them.
As for here in Memphis, build the trolley line down Union Avenue, but past the medical center out to Cooper street. A monorail line down Poplar from Downtown to East Memphis (ridgeway and I-240) and possibly to Collierville would be ideal. I would want a monorail to the airport also. As for the buses, trolley wires on main roads such as Lamar Avenue, Jackson Ave, and Elvis Presley, and battery powered buses everywhere else.
Regards from my all electric powered and heated apartment in Memphis, A.K. Howard.
Because they use the engine more efficiently, they burn a LOT less fuel and are therefore not as "smelly" (besides, new busses have better emmissions control). Because they use electric motors, they accelerate like trolley busses, but no wire, and no lack of versatility.
ALL diesel busses should be replaced with hybrids.
Hybrids are not new. The last fleet of Fifth Avenue Coach double deckers were gas-electric hybrids. Their acceleration was not remarkable.
And many of the 1930s buses were gasoline engines, generators
and electric motors too. But, they lacked the battery technology
of modern hybrid vehicles. The little combustion engine isn't
required to supply the _peak_ power demand, just the average (or
less than that if the vehicle is also being recharged wayside).
Acceleration can be made better than a straight diesel, but
probably not as good as a streetcar without a lot of wasteful
battery overcapacity.
Correct me, if I'm wrong.
Weren't battery powered buses and streetcars also tried and found lacking in acceleration performance?
Aren't batteries not particularly efficient at quick charge/discharge cycles?
The minimum charge time for a secondary battery that I've come across is 20 minutes and a charge rate of 4C, where C is the battery capacity in ampere-hours. They also have a lot of safety interlocks to prevent explosion on the charger and battery. Trickle charge rates are C/16 and C/4.
Exactly is this scheme supposed to work? At what rate will the diesel charge the battery - there's a 64x range. How long is the battery supposed to last without a charge in normal traffic. How many charge/discharge cycles are planned?
The hybrid seems too good to be true. Taking two technological lemons - diesel and battery power and coming up with with a winner. Of course, NYCT had to come up with some story for continuing to buy polluting diesel buses.
Exactly is this scheme supposed to work? At what rate will the diesel charge the battery - there's a 64x
range. How long is the battery supposed to last without a charge in normal traffic. How many
charge/discharge cycles are planned?
Why are you asking me as if I designed, specified, recommended,
approved or purchased this? ( I think that covers all the
categories that would entitle me to a free subscription to
Hybrid Transit Today)
Battery technology has come a long way since the 1920s, which was
the last time these things were seriously tried. I believe it was
NY railways that ran battery cars on some crosstown routes, but
the batteries were swapped out with a fresh set at the end of
the run and charged offline.
A hybrid bus does not have to use diesel.
Not really. A young RTS bus was scrapped because it's Hybrid Drive System was shit. Does 1991 TMC RTS 8397 ring a bell?
One bus pollutes more than one car does of course, but the multitude of cars that are in the NYC area pollute more than the 5,000 or so buses. It'd actually make more sense to get rid of all the cars before you replace diesel buses. It wouldn't make sense finacially, but it would pollution wise. Besides, Hybrid, CNG, and LNG technology are nowhere near as reliable as good old diesel technology.
Besides, Hybrid, CNG, and LNG technology are nowhere near as reliable as good old diesel technology.
How so?
The main problem I've noticed with the crop of hybrids currently in use by the TA is the low capacity caused by the low floor design. However, that is a function of the vehicle design, not the propulsion system.
Does anyone know how hybrid bus propulsion is different from the diesel-electric RR loco, apart from the size of the components?
Does the locomotive have a battery to store power, and then drain it when it needs extra power (such that the engine runs at constant speed)?
A long response to a long post.
There are two issues:
The first issue is monorail vs. elevated rail. Monorail advocates seem to be responding to the modern sleekness and great views from monorails. But both can be had with modern elevated rail. The Airtrain, for example. Monorail advocates rightfully dismiss bulky el design, but that style is out of date. One of the most influential new transit system in the world is the Vancouver Skytrain in Canada. This terrific new aerial line has the sleekness and the views, and is also automated. Frequencies can be increased without increasing labor costs; as a result, the system runs about every 5 minutes with short trainsets. But because it is on rail instead of a beam, monorail advocates ignore it.
While there isn’t a unique advantage to monorail over elevated rail, there are unique disadvantages. One is switching. Rail systems can move from one track to another relatively easily by quickly moving a piece of metal. Monorails require an entire concrete beam section to be moved. It can be done, but with difficulty, and usually at the end of the line. As a result, most monorails are single lines, instead of networks. Another disadvantage is speed. I’ve been on several monorails in Japan and elsewhere, and they all seem to peak at about 35mph. It is difficult to keep a slab of concrete smooth and even. Rail, on the other hand, can handle higher speeds, as bullet trains ultimately demonstrate.
The second issue is elevated vs. surface or subway. The basic rule of thumb is that elevated lines cost 3x more than a surface line. Monorail advocates say that the beams are not that much more than rails at grade, maybe cheaper where there are utility relocations required for the surface line. True, but it is the stations that rack up the costs. Instead of using the sidewalk as a station, elevated lines need large platforms built above the ground with escalators and elevators etc. for each elevated station.
Often there are unacceptable visual conflicts for elevated systems as well. In Japan for example, many stations extend from building face to building face, completely dominating a street. In Chicago, the L stations are also dominating. But that city grew around the system and the loop is part of the city’s character. It is unlikely Chicago or any other city will build els, historic or modern style, in their downtown again. Chicago’s two more recent downtown lines are subways. Vancouver’s Skytrain goes into a short subway section downtown.
The other rule of thumb is subways cost 3x more than an elevated line. This is where elevated lines make sense: where surface lines have unacceptable conflicts. Car lovin Orange County appears to be ready to build a rail transit system, one that won’t interfere with their beloved roads. Finally, transit comes to Disneyland! But instead of a monorail, the plan is to build a surface and elevated light rail. Monorail is less flexible (running it at grade with traffic for any stretch isn’t possible) and much more expensive. There is no “downtown” for the elevated sections to clutter up.
Having said all that, there is a place for monorail. In Las Vegas for example. There, several adjacent hotels got a deal on surplus Disney equipment and built a short monorail. They are now doing a major expansion of the line to other hotels and the convention center. It makes sense to be elevated because of the land costs and road conflicts. Elevated is visually ok because it won’t run down the Strip, but behind the casinos. And monorail fits because it is the technology of the starter line.
The problem is that most monorail advocates are passionate and dismiss all other technologies. It is like insisting on using just a 5 wood to go golfing. It is great to use in unique circumstances, but you really don’t want to chip or putt or do much else with it.
Excellent response.
I just returned to New York from a visit to Los Angeles. Both the extended Metro Red Line and the two new "Metro Rapid" bus routes (720-Wilshire/Whittier Blvds and 750-Ventura Blvd) seemed to be doing a very brisk business, even on weekends.
The "Rapids" were implemented as a way to achieve (or try to achieve) some form of rapid transit with buses, in this case low-floor CNG buses. The "Rapid" buses have transponders that can tinker with traffic signals, thus giving them a distinct running time advantage over the local routes serving the same corridors (18-Whittier Blvd/6th St, 20/21-Wilshire Blvd, 150-Ventura Blvd, and 240-Ventura/Reseda Blvds).
I would love to see these CNG buses try to use the San Bernadino Freeway or the 405 going North to the Valley anytime after 2pm Weekdays.
Also, would be fun to see it crawl on Santa Monica between Bundy and Sepulveda. :)
Interesting concept. LA did have some success with the El Monte Busway (dedicated mass transit lane). Pitttsburgh has a dedicated busway which opened recently (I was on it riding the Port Authority airport express bus); ridership didn't look very high.
>>> the El Monte Busway (dedicated mass transit lane) <<<
You got the wrong information. There is no dedicated busway. This is a HOV (High Occupancy Vehicle) lane open to both busses and autos with multiple occupants (car pools) running along a freeway. This was the only HOV in the Los Angeles area that required a minimum of three occupants in a vehicle (except motorcycles). All the others require only two occupants.
Recently due to political pressure, the occupancy requirement was lowered to two, and the HOV became as clogged up during rush hours as the rest of the freeway just as the traffic engineers predicted.
Tom
Thanks for the correction. Truthfully, RTD should have bought and paid for it, so they wouldn't have had to share it with anybody.
>>> The "Rapid" buses have transponders that can tinker with traffic signals, thus giving them a distinct running time advantage over the local routes serving the same corridors. <<<
It is not just the transponders that give the advantage. The bus stops are at least a mile apart, and on the far side of intersections so the transponders which can extend a green signal up to ten seconds will do the most good.
The rapid bus routes are exactly where the Los Angeles subway should have run, if it hadn't been stopped by cost overruns and politics. Although the rapid bus is better than nothing, it is far behind a subway.
Tom
Maybe they learned something from the cost overruns of the LA subway.
Damn the expense, bring back the Pacific Electric in modern form. Considering the traffic problems and population in the long run it will pay off [if people will leave their cars home...had enough of driving yet?]
Is this one of these BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) variations on a local/express bus route ? Some of these BRT systems even have buses that look like LRVs, e.g. Eugene, OR
Mr t__:^)
5 people dead so far after a former employee opens fire at a Navistar plant in the Chicago suburb of Melrose Park. Chicago Tribune article.
How many more of these incidents will it take before we as a society finally pull our collective head out of our ass and realize how much evil and sickness lurks just under the surface of our happy little fantasy worlds? Now we'll get to listen to another month of knee-jerk responses from all the experts who pretend to have all the answers before they even know what questions they should be asking.
Sorry to sound so cynical, but if our society keeps heading down this track, somebody let me off at the next stop.
Happy New Millennium,
-- David
Chicago, IL
Dave, let's emigrate to Canada.
The "suburban" part is really beside the point. A nut is a nut, and I doubt that one's residency has much to do with propensity for violence.
I have a lot of my own ideas but can't say for a fact I now why the USA leads the Western world in homicides, by a huge margin. The last time I looked at a chart of comparisons. First was IIRC the Phillipines, second some African Country, the US was 3rd on a worldwide basis with double the rate of the next in line. Scandinavian countries didn't even make the list.And the list showed last in line only a small number.
Our murder statistics are nothing to be proud of.
"How many more of these incidents will it take before we as a society finally pull our collective head out of our ass and realize how much evil and sickness lurks just under the surface of our happy little fantasy worlds? ... Sorry to sound so cynical, but if our society keeps heading down this track, somebody let me off at the next stop."
People going nuts and killing those around them isn't NEW, it's as old as humankind. Somebody got it right when they said "there is nothing new under the sun." It SEEMS more prevalent now because it's brought to us instantaneously at our desk or living room chair by a dozen different media outlets.
For those who think this is some phenomenon of the "modern age,"
1) Just WHEN was this golden age when nobody was murderous or violent, nobody was insane, and every person respected his fellow man?
2) What makes the present society SO much worse than any time in the past? Compared to the depths of the Great Depression?! The "Wild West" era on the frontier?!
My favorite example of something that bursts this "good old days" mythos is a study that came out a couple of years ago where someone (grad school thesis?) analyzed the ledger books from the 1910s and '20s in which the Chicago Police Department recorded all death incidents, accident and homicide, that were reported to the police. The frequency and variety of incidents -- mothers killing their babies, stabbings over a few dollars, "road rage" shootings at the scene of car accidents, pushings by homeless people in front of L trains (to keep this on topic), etc. -- could be dropped wholesale into today's newspaper and nobody could tell the difference.
>> somebody let me off at the
next stop. <<
Willoughby, Next Stop, Willougnby
Twilight Zone episode in whivh stressed out ad exec "exits" train at station in his mind.
the COnn. Post and the Stamford Advocate printed an article where the state of Conn. wants to extend Shore Line East sewrvice to Stamford. Any one have any thoughts on this?
Also- MN wants more money from Conn. to buy more cars.
(the COnn. Post and the Stamford Advocate printed an article where the state of Conn. wants to extend Shore Line East sewrvice to Stamford. Any one have any thoughts on this?)
Connecticut's problem is that it has attracted a bunch of jobs, but zoned out housing for non-millionaires, in the Southwest Coast. So service employees have to commute in from miles away, and the only way to do it is jam-packed I-95. With dense development on both sides, the cost of expanding the road is inconceivable.
But there are some pockets of modestly-priced housing and normal people, up north near Waterbury, and out east near New London. The idea is to provide a decent commute to get them to work in Stamford, Westport, Norwalk and Greenwich, without having them actually move there. The can't think of any other way, so they created Shoreline East.
I guess the change in New Haven did not attract enough people.
But there are some pockets of modestly-priced housing and normal people, up north near Waterbury, and out east near New London. The idea is to provide a decent commute to get them to work in Stamford, Westport, Norwalk and Greenwich, without having them actually move there. The can't think of any other way, so they created Shoreline East.
I guess the change in New Haven did not attract enough people.
I fail to see that through service to Stamford will make any difference. LIRR commuters are famous for their refusal to change trains under any circumstances. Somehow, I doubt that the Shore Line East commuters would have quite the same objections.
As long as CT is paying for Shore Line East, why not extend Metro North trains to the RI border at CT's expense? I hate to see transfers necessitated only by political juristictions, such as SEPAT/NJT at Trenton.
It doesn't have to work like that. NJ Transit operates Metro-North service out of Hoboken. It's a matter of getting two agencies to sign a contract (and two governors to agree).
It dosen't become Metro North service until the train crosses the border. Trenton is a logical termination point with its yard facilities and traffic flows. SLE runs into New Haven because the diesel service facilities are there and not at Stamford.
Because that's outside of MNCR's obligations, which are to run the former commuter service from the Connecticut suburbs to NYC. Rhode Island is to much territory for a road that is meant to bring workers to New York.
-Hank
I believe that you are overly concerned with the history of MNCRR's origins. NJT goes to Port Jervis. It does that because it made more sense to set up a cooperative arrangement where it does the work and someone else pays than to have two different companies running trains on the same tracks and getting in each other's way.
As for service to Westerly, if there is enough demand for it, the responsible officials will have to decide how to meet that demand. If they agree that it makes more sense to expand the scope of MNCRR's mandate than to have CONNDOT run its own trains from Greenwich to Westerly, history won't get in the way.
THing is, what demand is there for cummters to go from Rhode Island to NYC? Non-existant would be my guess. It's usally more than 2 hours to New Haven. Nothing wrong with the existing setup. People east of New Haven aren't working in New York in great enough numbers to warrant such service. West-of-Hudson MNCR service is a different story altogether; once the Erie was put into Conrail, they ran the service. At the time Conrail left the commuter business, NY paid NJT to provide the service, just as ConnDOT pays MNCR. In both instances, the payer provides funds and equipment.
It's time to stop with the absurd plans. There's simply no reason for the pipe-dream service. If you want to have fantasies about new services, why make them where there is existing need, but no options, like SE Queens and Staten Island, instead of 'Extend MNCR to Rhode Island'
-Hank
[But there are some pockets of modestly-priced housing and normal people, up north near Waterbury, and out east near New London. The idea is to provide a decent commute to get them to work in Stamford, Westport, Norwalk and Greenwich, without having them actually move there. They can't think of any other way, so they created Shoreline East.]
If so, then why is there no through service from Waterbury to Norwalk or Stamford? Waterbury is much closer to Norwalk and Stamford. New London is nowhere near Norwalk or Stamford and would make for a very long commute if SLE were to be extended to western Fairfield County. I would think that SLE is more aimed at New Haven-bound commuters than those headed for Fairfield, Westchester or NYC.
On the other hand, service from Waterbury currently goes no further than Bridgeport and trains only run with two cars. It might be beneficial to commuters coming from the Naugatuck River Valley to have through service to Fairfield County. Westchester or NYC, well that might be pushing it.
"Any one have any thoughts on this?"
It's fine with me, as long as the trains don't clog up the lines, and I can still get a direct train from Westport to Grand Central (which should not be a problem).
"Also- MN wants more money from Conn. to buy more cars."
This would be a good idea....but the next order of trains should have a different design, unlike the M6s that were delivered in 1994. I realize that double-decker trains are out of the question due to low bridges, but perhaps a longer car with less side doors and more seats. I like one of the newer model trains on the harlem/hudson line that only has one set of doors in the middle, and doors on the ends of the cabs where passengers can safetly change cars. -Nick
85' is about the limit for car length. Longer than that, you run into more serious engineering issues.
And how many fewer doors would you want? Aren't two per car side enough?
-Hank
I understand that the new car designs, to be compliant with the Americans with Disabilities Act, will need somewhat wider doors, fewer seats (to allow wheelchair access), and larger toilets.
"I understand that the new car designs, to be compliant with the Americans with Disabilities Act, will need somewhat wider doors, fewer seats (to allow wheelchair access), and larger toilets."
The M6's from 1994 already were wheelchair accessable, including the bathrooms. All new haven line trains have a few handicap seats that pop up to make room for wheelchairs already. As for wider doors, thats a possibility...looks like I'll be standing again in the future! -Nick
"And how many fewer doors would you want? Aren't two per car side enough?"
I know it sounds strange, Hank...but when you have had to stand up on metro north on a crowded train those extra seats make a difference. And actually, with the trains that have one set of doors in the middle, they really have 3 sets of doors in total; a set on both ends of the train. More doors, more open space with no seats...I don't like that. -Nick
Actually, the middle door concept is a winner and could obviate the end side doors if wider than what we're used to now. The old Westchester did that trick and it was extremely efficient for getting geese on and off and winning four extra seat pairs. Nobody has to walk more than half the car length - trick is making the doors about 6 to 10 inches per panel wider than what we're used to now. But it would work nicely and has historically - that's why subway cars have center doors. They didn't always. :)
Thing is, the end doors are the vestibule doors, and there are no seats there to begin with. THe vestibule helps with the climate control, and the vestibule doors have the low-platform steps, unlike the center doors. And you most definately need the doors you have now on the MUs. Fewer doors isn't an option, because you have prolems with emergency egress for the panicked geese.
-Hank
Point taken ... but if you want a higher seat count, that'd be the only practical way to do it.
"Point taken ... but if you want a higher seat count, that'd be the only practical way to do it."
Agreed!! -Nick
Can they do it without disrupting Metro-North's schedule from G.C.T. to New Haven, or delaying Amtrak trains?
They won't add back the 4th track to New Haven that is for sure.
Fourth track? Are you referring to the track and catenary replacement project which temporarily put one track out of service to New Haven from NY (MTA staff tell me that's temporary).
Yes the TEMPORARY cat replacement (cough cough, weez, weez, weez). All last summer I never saw at Cat train working there. Some work on the Catenary I saw ONCE at the lead to New Haven (first interlocking by the Fire Department training center).
Note that it takes far longer to replace / rebuild the New Haven line than it did to build it in the first place -- without modern equipment. Anyone know when (if ever) the complete replacement of the cat lines east of Stamford is projected?
Running Shore Line East trains to Stamford sounds like a good idea if it picks up intrastate traffic, so that more cars can be assigned to trains going to New York. The railroad president said that people stand because the do not like to use the middle seats. On most express trains in rush hour, there are no empty seats, middle or otherwise.
I was just on the Mta website. According to them, there will be a new order of cars to replace the Redbirds on the 7, and another 150 to expand service. Further, supplementing the r-143 order will be 660 cars to replace old 60ft. cars, with 67 cars not replacing anything. But here's the odd thing. The site says thar the R-40, R-42, R-38 and R-32ge will be the only ones replaced. Meaning that the R-32's will be in service.
And why not? The 32's seem to still be in great shape. Kinda strange though thinking of those becoming the R9's of the fleet as "vintage" cars. :)
True, the r-32's are in excellent shape. But I would have thought that the TA would have replaced the r-32's. They're older than some redbirds.
I would imagine the prime directive is "if it moves, we will fill it." A lot of the other cars probably were up on maintenance and long on downtime. Generally what makes something a candidate for sleeping with the fishes is structural damage that costs more to fix than replace and apparently the 32's haven't hit the knee of that curve as yet. I remember when they came on the railroad as B and D trains and while I preferred the R9's myself, they were snazzy and pretty well built. Budd cars were like that.
I liked the 44's and 46's ONLY because they were air conditioned. But if it wasn't the dead of summer, I preferred the older cars just the same. But age isn't the deciding factor for the scrap heap - it's the law of diminishing returns. Apparently the 32's are still carrying their weight ...
Spongy floors and all.
Heh. Go ahead and whine ...
After the PBS special last night, if Budd made it, folks here are going to bow down and kiss the floor anyway. And since the old subway rule was "be the craziest bastard on the car and you get a seat - sometimes as many of them as you want" then we've got added inducement for subtalkers to do that when boarding. :)
Please note that R-32's were completely rebuilt starting in 1989 by Morrrison-Knudson. They probably have at least another 10-15 years of service life left.
I would bet the bank that you will not see R32's plying the rails in 15 years, let alone 10. Just so many times you can SMS and re-build, even if it is a stainless MU.
Watch the R-143 order jump. Maybe even past the option cars.
Only time will tell. It helps that the R-32's were well-built to begin with.
Too bad they can't all be built that well.
The R-44's and R-46's weren't bad either. The experimental lightweight trucks from Rockwell were a failure, but once conventional trucks replaced them, the cars performed pretty well (and they have been rebuilt).
The R-44's and R-46's are actually one of the worst MBDF performers, and they are young compared to the 60 footers outperforming them. Lets face it: The fact that the cars were built to run on an automated 2nd. av. line didn't exactly help them. R-32's are the best cars out there, they ride real well, and their getting old. R-32's on the rails in 2011? I think they just might be in service that long. Especially since the TA learned it's lesson in retiring cars prematurely (R-30).
Allow me to offer support for ny previous statement:
Gene Sansome (ex-MTA transit engineer, author of the Evolution of Subway Cars book) writes:
"(the R-46 was much improved over the R-44) many transit officials rate the R-46s as the worst lemon ever in the history of...the transit fleet. Why? Simply, because everyone remembers the R-46 Rockwell truck. The Rockwell articlated truck, an unproven design...was selected by top management in spite of many technical reservations." Sansome continues to write that the trucks' lousy performance continued to plague the R-46 until they were completely replaced by conventional trucks in 1983. (pages 267-68).
Sansome's opinion is that the poor MTBF was largely due to the truck, and once that was resolved, performance improved.
Still, I don't know what the consensus opinion at MTA's engineering offices would be.
Just like I had my own opinions of one type of car over another in my book I suppose a lot is author's license to quote what appeals.
IMHO: The R44 was the biggest lemon [production run as compared to the R11]and they had plenty of trials beforehand to know it wouldn't work out.At much expense they eventually did work out. Did I like them? As a rider, yes, as a railfan, yes, as a motorman...NO.
The R46 was a big improvement yet cashed in some good things by having some dumb items built in, the truck for one.
To look at an R46 next to a 44 the bodies looked so much better made, at least externally. The control systems were livelier...the R46 would step out way better than a 44 that seemed to dog it from start to stop. Of course in regulated mode the R44 was just as lively but in my days we never used it and were instructed not to.
I can go into a lot of petty stuff but at least comparisons of both types when they were new I'd rate the R46 the better of the two.
Fair enough. And you certainly speak from experience.
How does the MTA conduct trials? What criteria do they use? How much "bugginess" is tolerable (eg "this car's very good, well worth working the bugs out" vs. "piece of trash which will never run right no matter what we do")?
Criteria? [???????] I wish I knew. The R44 was tested to death and it still turned out to be a pain.Kind of like what we're hearing about another major change in technology presently moving in on the A Division. You'd think after trials and even after having an experimental set in service that all the bugs would be out and a good production item produced.
Sorry, I thought this would be a post about Albany or DC.
-Hank
For the any type of mass transit system (air, rail, mail, etc.) to be successful, they are organized into a hubs where routes converge into one place and everyone is distributed to the route that will take them where they want to go. This system only works with mass transit. The whole philosophy behind cars is for the independence to go from A to B without stopping through C. However, when a suburb is designed, they are neighborhoods with one entrance and lots of cul-du-sacs. The neighborhoods feed into a secondary road, which in turn feeds into a primary road. Guess what type of system that sounds like? A hub and spoke. And guess where all the traffic is? At the hubs of the road system. This type of road network goes aganist everything a car is for, so that's why you have gridlock. Of cousre, stupid suburbanites (isn't that redundant?) think that they still have their independence because they think they choose to take the primary road. But in fact, their traffic route was predetermined way before they moved into their cookie-cutter house. The fact that suburbanuts think that the are still independent with their cars is the reason transit has a hard time gaining ridership with them. It's more obvious to them that a subway route is predetermined than their car route.
The solution for suburbs? Use an old, simple, proven idea. Build them where the streets are in a grid pattern. Cars can then go where they please and it's easier to determine where a transit route should go.
And in my area those hubs in the road system are at Northern Blvd and Glen Cove road.
Nassau county's roads are some of the most clogged suburban roads in NYC Metro area, especially in central and northern sections.
Have you ever been at Newark during a Continental PUSH??
CO does a hub and spoke thing with EWR, they schedule planes all to arrive within a certain hour and then they all PUSH or leave around the same time. What happens, TRAFFIC JAM, number 22 for takeoff. Yes CO accounts for this in their schedule but it is NO FUN sitting and waiting in the tin can.
If airlines didn't have centralized hubs, there would be no way they could make a profit. Without hubs cities like Bumblefuck wouldn't have an airport because only one or two people from any other city wants to go there. The hubs pool them together and now they have a full plane en route to Bumblefuck.
Have you been to Hartsfield during a push? It's still busy even between pushes. With only four runways, I still never managed to be higher than around 7 to takeoff.
I personally like buses becuase they have more personality. Of course that's just this young teen's opinion. What's yours?
This question really doesn't merit an answer, but as far as personality goes, I'd take a Slant R40 down an express run to any diesel bus bleching fumes on a clogged avenue.
BTW, the new CNG buses have no fumes, no style, and no personality.
The airtrain is really taking shape over the Van Wyck Expressway. Is it supposed to connect directly with the LIRR at Jamaica, or will it have its own, separate right of way? The speed of construction points to one fact - if you have th right interested parties behind your project, it will be finished in record time. The Second Ave. subway is still in the planning stages, just like it was when I was born 49 years ago. Figure that.
How about proposing a Second Avenue El, but rather than pay adjacent property owners for loss of value caused by an el, giving them the option of paying the difference for the option of placing it in a subway in front of their property alone. I guarantee the entire line would be underground. But then, that wouldn't exactly be legal...
But that brings up another question: if a transit agency would be responsible for lost property values by an el, shouldn't the property owners be liable for part of the increase in value they would realize by the advent of a subway?
(Okay, but then this isn't a pure market economy, and the roads are free, so why should they pay for a subway?)
I think something like that was done with BART But the people would not allow skylights into the stations
I believe that the Second Ave. subway was supposed to replace the Third Ave. EL, which ran from the Bronx to Lower Manhattan. The old El was torn down, but then the city fathers got car crazy and forgot all about the needs of the mass transit riding public.
I am skeptical of claims of lost property value next to modern elevated lines. Areas near stations can as much as double property values. Houses along the Van Wyck will be unaffected by the elevated line, but will increase in value because of development pressure from the new business, hotels, shopping malls (like One Jamaica Center)and govt. agencies locating to the area.
Now that is one thing I did not think about. Still, will the new line connect to the LIRr t Jamaica, or will it have its own right of way? By that I mean, willit be able to run on the LIRR tacks,or will it be a monorail like operation with no compatibility with existing lines?
The Air Train station will be alongside the LIRR station, but not have a direct rail connection, although the Air Train cars run on standard guage track with 3rd rail power similar to the LIRR. The following web site has excellent images of the new station:
http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/Jamaica_Station_Images.htm
Now what brain surgeon came up with that idea? Without a direct connection, maintenance would be a little more difficult, no?
I'm not sure of the reasoning behind it, but it could be because the Light Rail cars on the Air Train may not have the same floor height and other dimensions as the LIRR trains. The "official" JFK web site may have more info, but I havn't checked it out completely. That site is: www.jfkairtrain.com
Please note that the contractor (Bombardier) is assuming all responsibility for operating the system on behalf of the PA, on a periodically renewable contract
Ron, do you know if the plan is still for linear induction motors?
Don't know. But you can email the PA (see the website) and ask.
No. The system will have it's own maintainence facility, and equipment will be delivered by truck.
-Hank
The PA website states that the system was built to be compatible with other NYC regional rail. This implies that at some point in the future, it could be connected to LIRR for a one-seat ride.
No, it can't. Not without significant modification. Airtrain will be using linear induction technology. There will be a center 'reaction rail' that will propel the train along with the electrical portion on the truck of the car. Basically, if you unroll a conventional brushless electric motor, and put the rotor part on the floor, and the stator part on the train. The stator changes polarity at high frequency, and this is what propels the train. I've seriously over-simplified it, but the technologies are not compatible. Look up the Vancouver Sky Train, which uses the same propulsion system.
-Hank
So we're not talking about subway-style third rail DC power
The power would still be attained in similar methods. I think the system might have a fourth rail, for AC power, instead of third rail, DC.
Even with a linear induction system, you still have to power the half of the motor that is carried on the vehicle. How you get the power to the vehicle isn't dictated by the choice of linear induction over more conventional electric motors, so long as you don't pick an arrangement that interferes with the half of the motor that is in the bed of the ROW.
I, personally, would hate to have an el running by my 3rd floor apartment window. Although putting my blinds down all the time while I change wouldn't bother me, the noise would. I think those that would truly enefit would be those on a side street or very nearby. A subway, however, I would welcome with open arms to my front door.
AirTrain is built such that it runs by nobody's bedroom window. Too high up, too far away, and with noise baffles to boot. It's not going to be an issue.
Hey, not that I'm arguing against Airtran, even if it isn't a one seat ride. It will be nice to see NY join those truly transit oriented cities such as Atlanta, Philly, Chicago, and every European capital which provide rail access to downtown.
I didn't say you were arguing against it. My post probably sounded defensive, and if so I apologize.
I was disappointed that the entire original concept (through Sunnyside yard, across 59th St to Manhattan) wasn't done. The biggest obstacle by far was the $5.6 billion price tag.
Still, the PA is mulling over running their cars on LIRR rails (they'll need new hybrid cars to do it). That proposal will not be very practical, though, until LIRR finishes East Side Access (63rd St commuter rail tunnel connected to GCT/42nd St). The tunnel under the river (lower level of the subway tunnel) is done, but no tracks installed; the connection to Sunnyside and to GCT needs to be dug. There isn't enough East River tunnel capacity yet for all the trains we want to pack into it. It's one of the big reasons (biggest, actually) why a Rockaway LIRR line to Kennedy from Manhattan won't work (until East Side Access is finished - then it could possibly work).
It will be 2010 (at least) before they're done. Draft EIS already filed, and some engineering done, but no construction work started yet.
True. And daunting obstacle #2 was the source of funding.
This section of Van Wyck is now officially part of JFK (!). That allows the PA to use their airport PFC funds to build Airtrain. Very aggressive, but the courts have upheld so far.
Without this funding source, Airtrain would be in the same funding gridlock as ESA, 2nd Ave, N to LGA, 7 to Javits, ARC, etc. etc. With this funding source, Airtrain is under construction.
When ESA opens, then MTA can come back with a single seat ride.
I seriously doubt that houses along the Van Wyck service road will increase in value due to Airtrain. There are no stops between Jamaica and the airport. Would areas such as Rego Park and Elmhurst have benefited if there were no local stops on the Queens IND between Roosevelt Avenue and Forest Hills? I don't think so.
Also, my understanding is the Airtrain will only be available for those with valid airline tickets and airport employees, so there will not be a large amount of people who are interested in shopping along the way.
Whoa, how can they limit use to those with plane tickets? What if you want to meet an incoming passenger? Or escort an outgoing one? Or just visit the airport?
This restriction is news to me. I'll believe it when I see it. I'm betting that the fare is going to be the only means of restricting use.
"I seriously doubt that houses along the Van Wyck service road will increase in value due to Airtrain. There are no stops between Jamaica and the airport. Would areas such as Rego Park and Elmhurst have benefited if there were no local stops on the Queens IND between Roosevelt Avenue and Forest Hills? I don't think so."
Wrong. Stop focusing on the trees and look at the whole forest.You didn't read my posts closely. There are hundreds of millions of dollars of public and private investments completed or going on in Jamaica now: additions to York College, Jamaica Hospital, the shopping center at One Jamaica Center, the planned hotels/conference center, the FAA's new headquarters, the FDA's new building etc. etc. People working and shopping there are going to have to live someplace.
The elevated line itself will not affect house values alone - but the reconstruction of Roackaway Blvd. and other improvements will. And any property near Jamaica Station will be (correction - is already rising!) increasing in value.
"Also, my understanding is the Airtrain will only be available for those with valid airline tickets and airport employees"
Neither the Port Authority nor the airlines nor the MTA has said they would restrict travel that way. That's a cock and bull story promulgated by the airlines early on when they tried to stop the project.
I agree the Jamaica area near the station is thriving, however much of that began before there was a thought of Airtrain. I still don't see how it is going to help anyone south of Atlantic Avenue. Having that ugly concrete structure outside wouldn't do much for anyones view or privacy.
As far as who will be allowed to ride it, we just have to wait and see. If Airtrain is available for the general public, then I'll be happy to admit I was wrong. Other people I have spoken with are not so sure it will be available to anyone who wishes to ride.
The truth of the matter is that Airtran provides Jamaica with a chance to become a business center. Other cities have major office clusters near airports. Chicago has a mini downtown near O'Hare (in the suburban community of Rosemont). If the city of New York had the vision and the will, Jamaica could see that sort of investment.
It's already seeing that investment:
$500,000 addition to York College
New internship programs
New FAA and FDA headquarters
$387 million Jamaica Station overhaul
$1 million flower market
One Jamaica Center (dept. stores, restauurant, movie theatre) in progress
Much blight removed.
I circulated through the area before Archer Av opened, and have watched it blossom over the last twelve years. It's about time!
And I forgot to mention the reconstruction of Rockaway Blvd, the new ADA Howard Beach station MTA committed to as a result of AirTrain's start, and the nearly $100 million in contracts let to local, minority-owned businesses.
I myself used AirTrain's rodent exterminator contractor to get rid of a mouse problem at my house! Did a good job, too.
"I myself used AirTrain's rodent exterminator contractor to get rid of a mouse problem at my house! Did a good job, too."
THANKS! PORT AUTHORITY!!!
for nothing!
N Broadway Line --Astoria
to LaGuardia Airport
I hope one day you get av subway to La Guardia (I'll happily ride it.)
DO NOT GIVE UP!
I won't.
N Bwy
Where is One Jamaica Center? Cross streets, please, if you know?
One Jamaica Center is now a construction site across from the big govt office Bldg at Parsons Blvd/Archer Av. One of the entrances to the subway terminal is flanked by the construction fence.
No wonder I've never seen it. Haven't been past Sutphin Blvd in a while.
($500,000 addition to York College. New internship programs.
New FAA and FDA headquarters. $387 million Jamaica Station overhaul
$1 million flower market. One Jamaica Center (dept. stores, restauurant, movie theatre) in progress. Much blight removed.)
Unfortunately, people didn't make these investments willingly. The government took their tax dollars, on threat of imprisonment, and then invested it. The real payoff will come if and when people start investing on their own, without subsidy (or at least without the subsidy that if you put up a new commercial bldg in Jamaica you won't be paying ANY property tax for a long, long time).
WRONG LARRY!
Yes, there was appropriate public investment (and yes, Larry, if you don't pay your taxes, people with guns come to take them!)
But the private investments in Jamaica were in anticipation of tapping a market begging for business - and ready to yield a nice profit. Sometimes govt has to prepare the ground. That's appropriate.
Yes. Remember Times Sq.!
Go back and look at newspaper archives; The area that is thriving owes much of its life to the Archer Avenue subway's opening, and commitments by govt and business to revitalize the area. Without the Port Authority's commitment to AirTrain, some developers would not have "come aboard."
as to "ugly" structures, well, not many people in Jamaica have expressed that sentiment (but it's perfectly OK to - beauty is a very personal thing).
I must say that it looks a lot better to me than that monster squatting over Queensboro Plaza. I just wonder what the height limits on the streets crossing under it are going to be. If it's under 15 feet, will it take two years to repair it the first time some truck with a tall trailer slams into the side of it at 40 MPH?
I daresay the truck will get the worst of it!
I find it hard to believe you'd need an airplane ticket to ride Airtrain. What if you are meeting an incoming family member at the airport and want to take public transportation? Also, how would they enforce it on riders leaving the airport? Anyone could arrive at the airport by bus, taxi, etc., then leave by Airtrain.
I admit it would be hard to enforce, but that is what they said. We will have to wait and see until it opens if that is what they do.
That is emphatically not the plan. It was proposed at an early stage in the process and laughed out in a hurry.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Good Idea Philly! But most New Yorkers don't like El's. Anyway, I think an El would be better served on 1st Avenue (or close to the FDR)than 2nd Avenue. It would affect less people.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
If you look closely you'll see the structure goes right up to Jamaica by now. They are going to run two routes: One to the Long Term Parking lot, near the A train in Howard Beach, and the second route on that new ROW up to Jamaica.
BTW, notice I'm the only one NOT talking about the 2nd Ave STUBway.
Mr t__:^)
Any problems with the subways or commuter trains with the snow?
Got about 5 inches here, roads are still a slushy, slippery mess. And it's covered all the tree branches and powerlines.
How do they keep the catenary wires clear on the New Haven line?
Here in Philly RR lines were running 30 minutes late ("they" say, although I didn't ride any), and I didn't hear anything about the el, but I don't imagine the sub was effected.
Oh, and I just talked to my friend in Roxborough: she said the usual Manayayunk/Roxborough busses were either cancelled or diverted because of the hill.
I just heard that a falling tree knocked down catenary wires on the New Canaan branch. They're trying to find substitute diesel or bus service. Except for falling trees, the wires "take care of themselves" because the high voltage (11,000 volts) usually cuts through and melts any ice or snow as the pantographs slide along the wire, so the wires are to a large extent self cleaning.
Six inches in downtown Boston; 12 at my house in suburbia. The MBTA commuter rail service was on time... my commute was right on schedule (one hour, door-to-door, including Red Line, Green Line, Purple Line, and drive home from the station). Those who were fortunate enough to drive all the way had double, triple, and even quadruple trip times.
have you seen them lately? they are not pleasant to look at! some are so dirty that the steal is corroding. (stainless steel does corrode but it can be washed off) they looked like they have never seen the car wash. why are the exteriors of these cars being neglected?
I second this observation..
..and the 4-line redbirds run back to back to back!
all of the r-62s did not look too hot last october-november!! whatever became of the subway car wash ?? maybe somebody knows !!
i just came to think that maybe those cars were out for changing the linoleum flooring due to those grimey cars have new floors and didn't have time to wash them?
#4 line cars are washed at Concourse yard. However, #4s are usually washed at night while B's & D's are washed during the day. Unfortunately, cars can't be washed when the temp is below 32 degrees and it's been a very cold winter.
However, #4s are usually washed at night while B's & D's are washed during the day. Unfortunately, cars can't be washed when the temp is below 32 degrees.
Might one assume that it is generally colder at night than during the day? It would appear to be a systematic bias. Perhaps this explains why the #4 trains were reported to be significantly dirtier than the B and D.
and it's been a very cold winter.
Not really. You may be mistaking your heating bill for the outside temperature. We've not had any sustained cold snaps. No cold weather delays - yet.
It is generally colder at night than during the day. At least that's what I was taught in WeatherSchool :-)
In fact, this season-to-date it has been slightly colder than average, based upon the following statistic from Central Park:
Heating Degree Days have totaled 3103 since July 1, with the long-term average being 2926. That's a surplus of 177, or about 6%. Here is the definition of "Heating Degree Day," from the Glossary of Meteorology, Second Edition, published by the American Meteorological Society (Todd Glickman, Managing Editor [really!]):
A form of degree-day used as an indication of fuel consumption; in U.S. usage, one heating degree-day is given for each degree that the daily mean temperature departs below the base of 65*F (where degrees Celsius are used, the base is usually 19*C). In accumulating degree-days over a "heating season," days on which the mean temperature exceeds 65*F are ignored.
My Father would disagree with you, he wouldn't turn the heat on until "mean temperature departs below the base of 58*F"!!
In fact, this season-to-date it has been slightly colder than average, based upon the following statistic from Central Park:
Heating Degree Days have totaled 3103 since July 1, with the long-term average being 2926.
A slightly irrelevant statistic vis-a-vis whether or not #4 cars get washed nightly at the Concourse Yard.
A more accurate measure might be: the number of days that the low temperature were below freezing and the number of days that the high temperature were above freezing. One might reasonably assume that low occurred at night and the high temperature during the day. This would give some measure of how much more preferential treatment the B and D got compared to the 4. I'm sure the Central Park readings must be available on some sort of spreadsheet. Perhaps, you'll enlighten us - otherwise, I'll have to go by the feeling in my bones. :-)
All of the data are available here. Just click on "CPK" for the month of interest.
I thought at one time, the TA sent the 4 trains to the 239th street yard to be washed, it has been above freezing in recent days,maybe the TA can do it now,before the temps drop below the freezing mark again.
Might one assume that it is generally colder at night than during the day? It would appear to be a systematic bias. Perhaps this explains why the #4 trains were reported to be significantly dirtier than the B and D.
One might assume whatever one wants to assume. However, one might also realize that the #4 lays up very few trains during the day and those that do lay up usually have some mechnical needs. Those needs take preference over exterior washing. Hence, very few #4 trains are available for washing during the day when the temp. might occassionally climb above freezing. Then again, the car wash is in Concourse yard where the D's are based.
However, one might also realize that the #4 lays up very few trains during the day and those that do lay up usually have some mechnical needs. Those needs take preference over exterior washing.
Triage?
Why was the car assignment very odd in fall 1987 on the BMT/IND?
This was the assignment:
1.Some R10 GOH greenbird green on the "K" line & northern "B" line.
2.Some R30 GOH redbird red on the "R" line to Forest Hill (that's strange I thought R46 were running on the "R" line at that time)
3.Some R46 on the "N" line to Astoria (another strange thing, where were the R68's I thought they were on the "N" line by that time)
4.Some Pre GOH R27 on the "A" line filling in for the GOH R38's
5.I have this postcard at home showing ENY Yard dating from 1987 and it shows a graffitied R32 sporting "M". Were R32 running on the "M" line at that time?
Please correct me if I have mistakes and add stuff that I am misssing?
Sttuff was being shuffled around due to the pulling of many cars for the extensive GOH program at the time.
The and had just switched terminals, so the would still have R-46's, and it took time for the R-68's to begin appearing on the line, as they were still being delivered. (The got te last batch, shortly after that)
Hey, I hate cars in urban areas, but I can appreciate driving along the Agaean Sea or the Alps, or better yet on a camping trip in the US. Since I don't drive now, anyone interested in a car-based camping trip in PA or NY? It'd be be great non-transit fun in the mountains. Let me know as it gets warm.
Great idea. Let's go camping in the woods with someone we've just met. Ever see Deliverence?
-Hank
Great idea. Let's go camping in the woods with someone we've just met. Ever see Deliverence?
Squeal like a pig, boy!
Oh, wow. The snow just stopped here in Middletown, CT and he have c. 18 inches on the grould and everything is just covered in beautyful white. Its simply amazing. I was wonder how all the transit systems are coping and what the driving conditions are? Are the planes flying? Is Amtrak handling things? Make sure you all get out tomorrow and get some snow shots. ENJOY!
I just heard a train whistle here in western mass we have 21 inches of snow so rails can't be to bad.
Damn, 18" is more than we've gotten all year; and I had to really psyche myself up for the move from FL to Philly. Good thing I ruled out Northwestern and Yale right away!
Went out today..
..saw nothing but a track-crosser
at 72nd Street hurling himself onto the
Southbound Platform a mere *2 seconds*
before a redbird bounded in...
..and the "Grand Central Shuttle Monkey"
was seen hanging off the rear of an r32
car on the C line at WTC..
No Tapes for Bob Saget today..
CSX Selkirk has shut down for now ... nothing's moved in the last five hours. And there's only about 6 inches of snow here. About 100 miles to the east in Springfield, MA there's 26 inches however. As snowstorms go, this was a dusting here. :)
reminds me when i lived in detroit 1988-1991
EWR, LGA and JFK are toast. 70 flights alone cancelled by CO at EWR.
3 hours to get home. I'll bet the busses weren't running too well, either. Everybody left work early, so the snowplows couldn't do there
thing. Then my power went out for 7 hrs. Couldn't get on SubTalk!
Chuck Greene
They said northwest NJ had alot of power outages due to lines down from heavy, wet snow.
A friend of mine took Acela Express from Boston to NY last night. Arrived in NY on time at 8:40pm, no problems enroute. There was much less snow along the coast, I think. She said the train was full of people bumped off the air shuttles from Logan.
I believe other Amtrak trains ran, but with delays (the Amfleets don't hold up well in winter weather).
I got to Uha just in time to watch it start *snowing* My 1:30 class was cancelled, but we had it anyway for a few min. My Senior Design project group is formed and ready to take on the exciting world of bottling! I got a lift home, as I didn't really want to deal with the bus. People in the Hartford area just flat out ignore all traffic laws once it starts snowing. I guess their logic is since you can't see the road, you're not on a road, therefore the rules of the road don't apply? Anyway, by the old State House was more than it's usual mess, but the busses were magically still running. Some doof in the CT state senate took 8 hours to go 10 miles on I-84 last night, so I guess the highways aren't too affected up here ;)
>>> Some doof in the CT state senate took 8 hours to go 10 miles on I-84 last night, so I guess the highways aren't too affected up here ;) <<<
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
I wonder if he was driving that mobile launch pad they have at Cape Canaveral. It moves along at about 1 mph.:-)
This storm brings back memories of Winter Storm Larry in February of 1978. That was a doozy; they even canceled classes at UConn for a few days.
Well, a lot of routes in Philadelphia were detoured or delayed, and the suburban routes (except for the rt 100) were really late. There was so much snow on the platforms, and they were shoveling the snow on the platforms when I rode it. However, when I got off, they didn't shovel that platform yet, so it wasn't easy getting off the car.
Well, a lot of routes in Philadelphia were detoured or delayed, and the suburban routes (except for the rt 100) were really late. There was so much snow on the platforms, and they were shoveling the snow on the platforms when I rode it. However, when I got off, they didn't shovel that platform yet, so it wasn't easy getting off the car.
A bomb, apparently the work of Chechneyen terrorists, damaged one of Moscow's busiest subway stations during the Monday evening (Moscow time) rush hour. Here's the link to the CNN story.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Okay. After working the L line you've come back to work for more (hopefully you've changed your underwear). So now here's how to work the tubes and bridges.
Firstly the Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges are easy. When you're going uphill, wrap it. When you're going downhill, maintain 15 mph.
Okay, now the Brooklyn tubes (Southbound is toward Bklyn):
M between Broad St and Court St--Southbound leaving Broad wrap it to 15 mph then coast, at downhill timers keep speed around 12 mph. After the timers are past (around 6 of them), watch your speed as you're coming up on a switch going downhill! When you're clear of the switch, wrap it. As you are going uphill after you wrap it you'll only get to around 33 mph.-------------------Northbound see N,R.
N,R between Whitehall St and Court St--Southbound wrap it to 20 mph, at first timer take a mini-brake (about 20 lbs) and hold it until the automatic timer and the home ball timer both clear. When they do, wrap it. 33 mph speed (same as the M)----------------Northbound wrap it to 20 mph then coast. First four timers will clear while at 39 mph. After straightening out of the curve reduce speed to 30 mph. At the GT 30 sign reduce speed to 25 mph. At the final automatic timer reduce speed to 22 mph and let the home ball timer clear way ahead of you. Wrap it after clear. If an M train, operate at 10 mph on switch after home ball. Remember, NEVER challenge a home ball timer!!!
A,C between Broadway-Nassau and High St--Southbound wrap it and keep it wrapped. Both the yellow S and the red timers will change to green when you reach the yellow signal. Remember to look for the S! Average speed-51 mph.----------Northbound wrap it to 25 mph and coast. When passing both timers have train at 30 mph. Wrap it when you see the following green signal. Average speed-39 mph.
F between E Broadway and York St--Southbound wrap it to 25 mph then coast. When passing both timers have the train at 30 mph. Wrap it when you see the second timer clear to green. Average speed-40 mph.-----------Northbound wrap it to 27 mph then coast. As you approach the first yellow, place the controller in two points. When that first yellow clears to green, wrap it. Second yellow will change to green in your cab window! Average speed-47 mph.
L-see the prior post for all the L line info
Now the Queens timers (Northbound is toward Queens):
E,F between Lexington Av and 23/Ely--Northbound wrap it to 25 mph then coast. When approaching the yellow timer place the controller in two points. Yellow will clear within 1/2 of a car length then wrap it. Average speed-42 mph.--------Southbound wrap it to 25 mph then coast through first yellow. Pass second yellow at 32 mph. When approaching final yellow reduce speed to 31 mph then wrap it when red signal way ahead clears. Average speed-40 to 41 mph.
N,R between Lexington Av and the 11th St Cut(Queens)--Southbound on the N line after doing 15 mph speed limit over the curve at Queensboro Plaza, wrap it when you reach the billboard over Vernon Blvd. After you enter the portal apply a mini-brake to maintain your current speed from just before the R line switch by the first yellow until the instant you see the second yellow. When you see the second yellow, immediately wrap it the rest of the way. Average speed-62 mph! On the R you can't go this fast as you have to maintain a 10 mph speed while the rest of your train clears the switch. 100 feet after passing signal G1-97 wrap it. You'll hit 50 mph this way.-----------Northbound wrap it to 30 mph then coast. While going downhill you'll see a bunch of reds. As all the reds gradually clear, that last red that you originally saw, well when it goes green (you'll have another yellow S signal beyond it), wrap it. Average speed-54 to 56 mph.
G between Van Alst and Greenpoint Av--Southbound wrap it to 25 mph then coast. Pass yellow S at 30 mph then wrap it. Average speed-40 mph.------------Northbound do the exact same thing except you'll have a second yellow S. Continue to coast and pass the second yellow S at around 32 mph then wrap it. Average speed-41 mph.
In The Bronx:
B,D between 155 St and 161 St--Southbound wrap it to 25 mph then coast. Pass lone yellow S after the GT sign at 30 mph then wrap it the rest of the way. Average speed-44 mph.
I haven't posted the Northbound on the D nor have I posted the 63rd Street Connector as I haven't gone over those sections in a while and I don't remember them. That, and I'm posting this at almost 2 AM. Don't be disappointed though, the 63rd Street Connector timers are very ordinary and non-descript. If I remember them I'll immediately post it.
If anyone has a better way to work the respective timers, by all means post it! Maybe you know a better way than I do!
Also if any of you want to know how to work any specific timer area in the entire B division, post your query and either I or one of our other knowledgeable Train Operator SubTalkers will be glad to answer it!
L#4389-Zman
Thank you for sharing...very informative. The MPH you state in your posts - are those readings from the cab speedometer (which I've read are not accurate), or are the speeds mentioned based upon your experience/knowhow?
They're readings from the cab speedometer. They usually estimate the proper speed to within 3 mph +/-.
One last thing about the Williamsburg Bridge timers. DON'T HIT THEM!
If you do an alarm goes off at Control Center to which there is no escape. The line supt. hands out 30 day suspensions for this like rolaids.
Hell ... there's good reason for THAT one ... I'm surprised that the TA doesn't have snipers positioned to take out anyone who tries to hit a ball on any of the bridges ... it was an incident in 1995 that happened there that is responsible I'm sure for all of those silly timers that have made the rats super-expresses in their own right these days compared to the rolling stock.
Well the main thing that came out of that accident was that the field shunting was reduced on all equipment due to the inadequacies of the signal system.
By gum ... there's yer engineering logic, sausage crafter style. That train was going way too fast ... didn't matter if we couldn't pop up a tee to say "good morning" to Mr. Trippy Cock ... I guess command was giggling too hard to write that into the report. Yeah, that's where I meant to go with it but in addition to the cutting of ONE wire (hint, hint all you 'lectical boyz' who aren't afraid to pull a main fuse and make magic) they also started planting timers on the system like weeds. And I heard from one of my other buddies who lurks here but doesn't post that there's a whole sheetload MORE timers coming online soon all across the railroad - anywhere where the grade exceeds 2% he heard ...
By the way, I worked the concourse line. There's GT's on the center and local southbounds at 161st as you had mentioned and there were ST's at Tremont and into 205th as well as ST's northbound at the bendy leg for Bedford when the D approaches express on the center track and bends around to go to the outer platform to 205th ... that's all there was, to Tremont it was a "wrap it" party until you sat waiting to get into 205th because they only had one relay guy and there was always a southbound or layup sitting there blocking the relay. 205th was NOT a picnic to turn a train around in at rush ...
By the bye, I know absolutely nothing about that rear-ender but having done MannyB rules, nobody in their right mind would have coasted there without at least 15 pounds all the way down if not 30. I suspect that whatever happened there was a medical since all of us who ran heavy metal over that bridge were shaking all the way down. I suspect that the motor on the tail train wasn't conscious when they hit. Only explanation I can imagine since you keep your distance in the rare event that you actually see something in front of you.
I loved the concourse run - the run into Prospect Park and especially into Dekalb was a constant rattler to me - once I got my train into Columbus Circle northbound, I was ready to kick back and smoke a ceegar. :)
The reason you probably don't remember the Concourse part of your runs was that it was literally a cakewalk ... very little in your face other than greens all the way to Tremont. And aside from the pack zone, even that was highball all the way to the final curve into 205th. And it was genuine bonus if you were highballed all the way into 205th. It'd happen after 18:00 ...
After reading all of the notes Re timers I am wondering if they have installed timers on the Queens Blvd line. I remember leaving Contential Ave heading west to QP and really rolling. Probably had max speed going through first local stop and then going down grade on the express cutoff. I stood up front and don't recall the Motorman going to the power off position with the controller. It was a quick trip to the city. This was riding on the R1-9's in the 50's and early 60's
Last trip was in 96 on a D going south from Yankee Stadium to get the LIRR to the island. I always thought the 8th Ave EXp was a fast run down Central Park to 59th St. It was like a slow boat to China. But was impressed with the high number of what seemed to be Transit Police working the train and platforms to 34th Street.
I guess times have changed.
The above ride on the D was after the Good Friday opening game that lasted to almost 6 PM My son and I probably didn't catch the train until about 7 PM after looking at the local sport shops.
Got to get the tractor cranked as is is snowing like a cow pissing on a flat rock. But that's northern MI
Don't worry pals, this isn't the Canarsie Line that we're talking about here. BTW if the area isn't mentioned then it means that there are no timers in the area and you should wrap it (obey any posted speed signs).
Southbound towards Manhattan
F leaving Sutphin Blvd: wrap it to 23 mph and coast the rest of the way. When second timer clears at 19 mph resume regular speed.
E leaving Sutphin Blvd: wrap it to 28 mph then coast, regulate speed approaching second timer, wrap it when you visualize the third yellow (not a timer).
E/F leaving Continental Av: wrap it to past 67 Av (around 30 mph), coast, at second "Revs Espo" painted on the column 200 feet north of the first timer immediatelt hit mini-brake/20 lbs and pass the timer at 25 mph, second timer will clear slowly, coast down hill to 30 mph and maintain speed past the next three yellow S signals, wrap it when you visualize the green repeater around the curve, 200 feet past the T 35 sign south of Woodhaven Blvd slow the train down and pass the yellow S at 23 mph (you'll never see this signal clear to green unless you operate like a snail), as you round the curve (this is where it gets tricky) you glance towards the local tracks to try to get a look at the next signal at the edge of Grand Av. You're not looking for the automatic on 1 track which stays in perfect view, instead you're looking to get a glimpse at the 3 track automatic which pops into view for maybe a second behind the columns.
If you see it at yellow S hold two points and the timer will clear in your window then wrap it.
If you see it at red begin gradually braking, it'll clear at around 13 mph but DO NOT treat it like a timer, wrap it after clear.
If you're not able to glimpse the timer on the curve hold a mini-brake/20 lbs and be prepared to stop should it be red (if it is you'll have plenty of room to stop), if it's yellow immediately wrap it.
E/F approaching 36 St on 3 track: when you pass the T35 sign, over the little incline slow the train down from 36 mph (wrapped) down to 30 mph and hold this speed through the 3 yellow S timers, wrap it after third signal clears. Two things: always look for the S to be lit on all yellow timers otherwise the next signal will not clear, and make sure after the third timer that you have the correct line-up. Green over Green puts you into Queens Plaza, Green over Yellow puts you into 21 St-Queensbridge.
Fastest speed acheived on the QB line southbound: 44 mph
Northbound towards Jamaica
E/F approaching 65 St on 4 track: from top speed (39 mph) after you pass the T35 sign begin braking as you hit the left hand curve down to 29 mph, both timers will clear at this speed, wrap it after second timer turns to green in your window.
E/F at Elmhurst Av on 4 track: from top speed (41 mph) immediately when reaching T35 sign at the north end of Elmhurst mini-brake/20 lbs down to 33 mph, both timers will clear within 1/4 of a car length to green, wrap it when second timer clears.
E express (4 tk) at Van Wyck Blvd: approaching south end of Van Wyck Blvd reduce speed to 25 mph, second timer (homeball) will clear to yellow over yellow (YOU MUST HAVE A BOTTOM YELLOW-BOTTOM GREEN WILL TAKE YOU TO 179 ST), reduce speed further to 10 mph over switch on the north end of Van Wyck Blvd and hold speed until whole train clears switch, gain speed to 19 mph for final two timers to clear then wrap it to Jamaica-Van Wyck.
E local (2 tk) leaving Van Wyck Blvd: after getting a bottom yellow home ball wrap it to 19 mph and coast, approaching timer hold a mini-brake and lose some speed to about 14 mph until timer turns green (reason being that the second timer is a home ball on a curve with no repeater signal-you NEVER challenge any home ball unless you don't feel like staying a T/O), then coast down hill gaining speed back to and maintaining 19 mph, wrap it when final timer clears.
F leaving 169 St and staying on 2 track to 179 St: approaching lone timer halfway to 179 St reduce speed to 15 mph, wrap after clear.
There are no timers on the local tracks between Continental Av and Queens Plaza on the G/R lines in both directions.
It's interesting to note that there are some refrences (on your L and Queens Blvd posts) to grafitti tags ("REVS" and "REFS ESPO"). I wonder what would happen if they disappear for some reason.
Then one would have to use another form of landmarking. In the case of the L line, the left hand tunnel light is also parallel to the blind timer. In the event of the 63rd Drive timer, you'd just have to time it yourself which isn't too hard, it's just that the Revs markings make it less difficult.
As far as these somehow disappearing.......well they've both been there for at least the past 4 years so I guess that I'd worry about it whenever they finally do decide to remove them.
Heh. Y&eah, we're getting some more ourselves here around Albany. Anybody need some extra snow? Back a truck in, it's free. :)
Your impressions of the CPW line WERE true once upon a time. From what I hear on this place, looks like they put one huge resistor in series with the substations down yonder. They used to call it "RAPID transit" and once upon a time, they MEANT it.
Story on extending the 7 train westward.
Peace,
ANDEE
Gee ... and from that shiny new "Steingrabber Stadium" it'll be a short hop, leap and bound up the abandoned west side high line to TRUMP Stadium on the upper west side. Herr Mayor can probably get NYC a major league XFL football team even if the neighbors complain about all the noise from the artillery that NBC will need to get ratings.
Meanwhile, straphangers on the east side can look forward to horse drawn cars ... yeah, that's the ticket. President Shrub says the economy's in the toilet (and by his own words, made it so) so we're all going to be rolling in debt - why not? Gotta kill the former budget surplus somehow to keep the banks rolling that money into the elephant party's coffers ...
Don't mind me - I'm all for expanding the subway, but wouldn't it be smarter to finish old projects before creating new ones? Aggggh.
And by the way ... speaking of Trump, adding a dash of Disney and wondering ... "are there still any Ho!'s on the west side?" I though all the Ho's got driven out of town and now if you wanna go to a tiddy bar, you gotta hope the Montrealer for Rue Ste Catherine avec le Quebecois ... are there any "westward Ho's?"
Don't bother - it was merely a rhetorical question which shows you what being up all night writing code can do to you - it's like the glorious daze of the old split shifts on the TA except if I hit a signal here, the support toll rises exponentially owing to booboos in the code. So when I feel the toast coming on, guess where I head for? Uh-huh ... heh. I go sleepies ... see yez later ...
Maybe now we'll find out for sure if the Eighth Ave. lower level blocks the expansion.
Place your wagers ... place your wagers ... at grade crossing! :)
Maybe now we'll find out for sure if the Eighth Ave. lower level blocks the expansion (of the 7)
Just cut right through the lower level. It's probably safe to assume that NYCT has no plans whatsoever to resume using the lower level, now that the last remaining stairway to the active upper level has been walled off.
The question is whether or not that will be necessary.
Thanks to "75 years ago in Railway age (magazine)" I read that sometime about 1920 there was a plan to extend the IRT to New Jersey as the H&M was so overcrowded and no prospect of expansion. IIRC the extension would have been from the Lower "Lex". I don't know if I still have the clipping, shame on me if I don't.
Someday extend the 7 line to NJ. Very slim chance but an idea.
Perhaps the subway gods will be kind to NY this year...
There was a plan to have service by the LIRR, from Atlantic/Flatbush into downtown. There were also plans to have a loop service into NJ, too.
Ahh, plans.
--Mark
I find it amusing how journalism works. In "The New York Elevated" by Robert Reed there's a line that says that service on the Manhattan elevated became moribound with no expansions. Being mildly derogatory, but the truth was the West Side and East Side els both expanded considerably with connections to the subway-el routes that came with the dual contracts.
To bring things up to the present and for that matter the last 40 years the "moribound" thought would apply, sadly, considering what could/should have been built.
But then we need to be glad for what IS there.Even if other cities have shown what could be done.
In "The New York Elevated" by Robert Reed ...
Now THAT'S one book I'd like to get my hands on ....
--Mark
I thought Giuliani cleaned it up.
See title.
Ocaasional SUBtalk poster "The NX Lives" Appears in Daily News Article
Peace,
ANDEE
hey andee... for a minute, i was afraid there was some competition in "the twisted post" category...
you just meant that someone else is getting publicity...
well, i am very happy to report, because of the annoyance it will cause my detractors, that i was interviewed by a producer from a show seen on cablevision for possible inclusion as a 5 minute segment on a program about people with unusual interests... i am not sure if my interview will be included, and i hesistate to mention the show because i fear an avalanche of negative letters to the producers of the program... honestly, if they do it, they do it... what was important to me was that it was fun to have them take some pictures of me and the r9 cab, and it was nice to be able to be honest and playful about myself...
Actually, bro ... I'd like to SEE that. Up here in the smallbany area, we used to have CableVision systems of Rensselaer which was ChuckieVision through and through with IFC, Bravo, Rainbow and all the good stuff. The system was clean, the pictures looked great and I was quite the happy camper. Then the @!$^%#!@ sold it to AOL/TimeWeenie, the pictures immediately went to shirt, IFC and Rainbow got dumped and it was more Turner twaddle than you could shake a trailer at, right on down to that stupid talking bass and Miss Cleo. Yak.
So we ditched TimeWeenie (and now with AOL, you get a busy signal every time you change channels) and slapped up DirecTV. No way am I going back, even to ChuckieVision. If they DO come with cameras and lights, ask for a "dub of the master" when they're done editing. I'd be happy to pay for a dub as I'm sure are many others intrigued by your R9 cab. I snatched the two pictures from your site for posterior (front and angle shot missing the butt plug on the brake box) and would LOVE to see more even if your mug isn't in it which we all know it will be. (grin)
Granted, all of us here are rail nuts but what you've got is downright kinky. In a time of bread and circuses, I just *know* that if the producer actually saw it, you're going to be chosen since you have more elephants in your show than they do and the loose screw always gets airtime even if they don't get it. I'd even bet you'd make the station's Christmas reel (a TV tradition where the station throws a party at Christmas and the editors make up a reel of all the dumb shit they've done in the past year to amuse staff) ... no insults intended here - I'm absolutely amused by the fact that you rescued the hardware and have your own in-house museum. I probably woulda done similar if I had gotten my mitts on pieces of my "spanish lover." :)
AMEN about DirecTv/Slime Warner Cable Selkirk! Amazing how you don't have to BEG whenever a new service starts up-Direct starts it up almost IMMEDIATELY! And now that they offer the local NYC channels around here....ALL of them.....Whats truly amazing is the number of folks stil clinging onto cable!
Yeah, 250 channels for about the same price as "family" and a "movie" with AOL Cable is terrific ... but what I particularly enjoy is the lack of OUTAGES and pictures you can actually SEE. And of course, the lack of talking bass and all those nifty TimeWeenie Ceedee sets. Don't miss it at all. Then of course, there's both the east coast and west coast feeds of everything so if you miss a show, you can go get it again three hours later. Since I work the night shaft, this is truly bonus. :)
In the "twisted post" category - heypaul is w/o peer (thankfully - I don't think we could handle more than one).
Yes, until someone else has a rapid transit T/O's cab in their residence, there can be no "competition" to heypaul...
BMTman
Just wait until he finishes his Greyhound Bus front end in his bathroom.
not a bad idea, lou...
it certainly would have a great seat to watch the road from...
What kind heypaul? 4506? 4104?? Although I guess the front ends of the 4506 and 4104 are pretty identical! {If you SubTalkers hadn't noticed....the Yahoo Clubs site is down today, and us Greyhound Bus nuts need an outlet! SORRY!}
hey lou... actually the front is from a c-49 greyhound mack bus... i have it signed brooklyn...
yahoo is back up on line...
Complete with scrolling destination sign.:-)
[Complete with scrolling destination sign.:-)]
Now boarding Greyhound to Neversink .... that's in NJ
Mr t
actually i find scrolling destination signs on greyhound buses to be very unromantic... i find an incandescent lit roll side to have much mystery and charm... a scrolling or digital sign is very cold...
Wrong mr t! Neversink is/was a town up here in the Catskills..Short Line territory...
[Wrong mr t! Neversink is/was a town up here in the Catskills..Short Line territory...]
Must have been two of them as my great grandfather had swamp property their & it was NJ ... yes I am a real Swamp Yankee & WASP, but married to a Catholic, so a WASP in origin only, except for the Skunk Cabbage on my property in CT ... it only grows a swamp ;-)
Mr t
The area in New Jersey is Navesink... the Navesink River runs past Red Bank, Fair Haven, Rumson, etc.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
See that, I knew CT wasn't the only place to have SWAMP Yankees.
Mr t__:^)
Don't encourage him, Lou.
;-)
BMTman
A Greyhound Bus front end? With an Asphalt Fan Window? I cann see it all. Next time he's in town, salaam will be shooting a whole new series of videos like, "The Road to Hoboken" or "Heypaul Does Keeokuk"
I saw this morning a short highlights of Diana Williams report of her 24 hrs. on the subways, I belive it will be on the News tonight, on ABC 7
Well ... since it's "sweeps week" (in case you were wondering why NBC was willing to pay for an extra 10 minutes of FRENZ and the SNL kids doing "live air" with a bonus ... I can only expect that ABC expected her to get robbed, raped, beaten, hosed and sent home. New operations tend to run their "let's see what a 55 year old housewife looks like in a Latex skirt and then we'll show you (insert female generic pop rocker name here) side by side ... and near-scandals and such. 24 hours on a subway sounds like the news director was disappointed by the outcome. Too late though, the assignment desk guessed at a story for the ratings scandal sheet and blew it.
Dish for those of us outta town ... did she get any rail grease on her? Or did she find the Ho's on the westward? (that'd make the newscast too since this is sweeps week)
Sweeps is a MONTH. Freinds and SNL running in that hour are a defensive posture taken against Survivor on CBS.
But you're right-during sweeps, newscasts like to go for the hard scare. Remember John Stossel and the organic fruit?
-Hank
Heh. ABC is still eating crow for that one and Stossel, true to form blamed some teenage intern for his lack of journalistic integrity in checking the story himself before proceeding. There's actually two "sweeps" at foot here - one week for "national" followed by one week for "local" ... the additional two weeks planned by the National Biscuit Company (a TV industry inside joke that name) is to supposedly solidify their position for the May sweeps ... somehow it isn't working though. I don't want to say much more since there's no way I can put this topic on track ... ah! Just made it on topic. Yay! :)
Having been in the TV research biz, I can tell you "sweeps" is a month-long period. There are 4 of them a year, - Feb., May, July, Nov.
Forgot about Neilsen - that's the national - the diaries from Arbitron are one week only. You're right though - local stations really only care about the Arbs ... my bad. :)
Arbitron is radio.
-Hank
They do local teevee also. Here in zip 12186, I've done the diaries twice now. And it's indeed ARB ... Neilsen plops the meters and leaves them for a month. ARB still does the diary thing and they didn't care about radio - Trendex did that as does ARB but both use phone surveys for radio. Now if they only asked for favorite color and favorite train, we wouldn't be veering off topic. :)
You're about 9 hours late.. twas on last night at 11.
It's going on all week, I think. There is defnitely a second part tonight, about the homeless on the subway.
:-) Andrew
I'll probably watch the entire Eyewitness News Special all week. Last night's was honest and didn't "pull any punches".
Diana Williams should include a ride on the Brighton Line to Sheepshead Bay and then do a detour to heypaul's apartment to check out the R-9 cab. That would be a real railstory.
BMTman
As long as she has an armed escort with her when she visits heypaul...and that they make sure that heypaul has taken his meds.. :>)
What?!?! And she didn't ask any of US to join??
--Mark
The Metro managed to build the entire system according to their original plan. How did they overcome the NIMBYs and other political obstacles? MARTA hasn't stuck to their original plan, there are three spurs and a total of seven stations that aren't built and probably won't be anytime soon, if ever. The north line from Buckhead to North Springs wasn't even supposed to be built, it was supposed to be a busway. What about BART? Have they stuck to their plan? What was their plan, anyway?
There are probably a number of reasons why WMATA did what it did. I know one of the reasons, and invite others to contribute the rest.
Washington is the nation's capitol - the subway was part prestige, and that's why it had a grand design and fancy stations. Please note, though that there were significant limitations - no four track lines with local vs. express trains. But the fact that members of Congress, lobbyists and staff were to use it made it a priority.
Also, note that developers in Virginia and Maryland understood that property values (and profit from real-estate development) would skyrocket - so they were behind it too. And they were justified in thinking so, because that's what happened. Look what happened to Bethesda after the Red Line opened.
There was some Nimby - but within the Beltway, that NIMBY was isolated and neutralized. Of course, areas like Georgetown succeeded in keeping the subway out of the neighborhood. There was also protest by poor people in places like Anacostia, who complained that WMATA intended to abandon plans for subways (like Green Line) through poor areas. The Green Line did finally open; much of the delay was due to the need to blast through miles of solid rock to get the line built.
Also, note that WMATA works on distance-based tolls. The public perception is that fares of over $2.00 or even $3.00 helps keep the riffraff off the trains. Still, ridership has been good (and climbing).
OK, I stated more than one reason. I'll shut up now and let somebody else talk.
Also, note that WMATA works on distance-based tolls. The public perception is that fares of over $2.00 or even $3.00 helps keep the riffraff off the trains. Still, ridership has been good (and climbing).
I think that the best way to deal w/ riffraff is to have local and transit police arrest them for something like "panhandling" and throw their ass in jail for a few days. The NIMBY's need to learn that an agressive police force can keep the down side to transit out of their towns. After attending some sessions of municipal court I have learned that my town follows this method.
I bet it didn't hurt that DC isn't really self-governing.
BART's "original" plans depend on when you speak. Three counties opted out during the planning, lobbying period. Ultimately a marginally legal referndum scraped by in only three counties(the results were 'averaged' accross the counties to claim 60.1 meeting the 60% required at the time for bonded debt) So the "original plan" was what was open in the mid 70's. Extensions since then have been ad hoc. There is major agitation for tracks into the one story-single family dwelling areas of Eastern Alameda and Contra Costa. Of course that is where the stations are far apart and ridership slim. At present BART has roughly the same route mileage as WMATA and 300 k fewer riders per day.
Counties opting out sounds like the time when MARTA was first concieved. Five counties were in the intial plan, but only two ended up approving it. The original plan I talked about was from 1979, when the first segment opened. If all five counties approved it, MARTA would be a lot bigger than it is now.
Reason #1: a standing appropriation of $200 million from Congress. Each year. Every year.
That's why I wish Philly were still the capital.
Too bad SEPTA wasn't in the planning stages 200 years ago.
I think someone mentioned the green line was debated though.
The Green line had some problems with the allignment of the inner-city section. It was originally supposed to go beneath Kansas Avenue NW but IIRC the folks up there didn't want the street torn up - it was primarily residential - there would also have been some building condemnation as well, all opposed. They wound up routing the Green Line up Park Road NW and THEN up New Hampshire Avenue NW (this created that neat reverse curve north of Columbia Heights AND resulted in the tubes being stacked beneath narrow Park Road NW).
On the other end, they ran into groundwater and ashfill problems in various places south of Anacostia.
I will be visiting DC later in the year, and Dad and I will check out the new Green Line stations.
wayne
How were the Broadway, Eighth and Sixth Ave. lines built? Cut and Cover? Bore? I don't think it was cut and cover, because I never seen pictures of streets being torn up like the consturction of the IRT. What about IND tunnels in Brookyn and Queens?
The IND tunnels along Queens Boulevard in Queens were cut and cover. The others I'm not sure about.
my late father (lived in NYC 23-40) describrd CPW being torn up for the construction in terms that imply cut and cover.
Independent construction was cut and cover, except for some areas in upper manhattan in the 170s to 190s that required bore tubing, and in Windsor Terrace in Brooklyn.
Also of course, the massive concrete elevated structure over the Gowanus Canal.
The article about Token users vs. Metrocard users ran today...
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/06/nyregion/06TUNN.html
-dave
Our very own (1) South Ferry (9) in the Times, congrats!
>>>Many of the true token people feel the same way, except they will not be dissuaded by discounts.
Carlos Fernandez, 23, a senior at the State University of New York in Purchase, reported by e-mail that when he tried out the MetroCard, he felt as if he were entering a kind of government-controlled "Area 51, where every little bit of information and detail is scrutinized."
In his message, he added: "Who will be there to open the gate manually when the M.T.A. computers befall a belated Y2K? In the era of online hackers, one can never be too certain."<<<
Notice he reported it by E-Mail, uh huh
Peace,
ANDEE
SUNY Purchase?!?!
Hey! I know that guy...
:>
I'll be leaving New York on February 26th. I'll be visiting London, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Zurich and possibly Milan for 3 weeks.
I will be taking pictures of the Glasgow Metro, the special London Underground Museum open house at the Acton Town Depot(Yard) where all of it's nostalgic heavy rail equipment is stored as well as the transport systems of the other cities on the itinerary.
If anyone has any special requests, please let me know and I'll try to fulfill them.
If you wish to contribute photos to Oren's Transit Page, I will gladly accept them. Please contact me via e-mail (oren@orenstransitpage.com).
Try and get some pics of those wooden escalators...Thanks...and enjoy your trip!
Peace,
ANDEE
Will do! However if you know of any stations that have them please let me know. That way I won't have to search for them. One way or another I'll do it.
I'm afraid that you can't find them, because after the Charing Cross Station fire, all of the escalator have been changed to steel ones. But you may find it in the transport musuem.
Confirms what my British friend told me. Don't miss the Docklands Light Railway. Mostly elevated even if the neighborhoods look like something out of a futuristic comic strip of 50 years ago.
Unfortunately the DLR is so incredibly slow...
-Robert King
P.S. Start checking for mail from me about this time next week (Canada Post are like the DLR...).
Go to Southgate Station, no wooden escalators, but they have been restored to look as much like they did in the 1930s as possible. No flash photography permitted unfortunately, so take a fast film.
Take commuter rail between Glasgow and Edinburgh. Somewhere around Shotts (where my 20 year old uncle lives), the outbound trains become inbound trains. Edinburgh's train station is cool, because it's built in this manmade canyon-like structure. The Firth of Forth rail bridge is an engineering marvel, try to see it from the beach.
Thanx for the tip. My wife and I were planning on staying in Edinburgh and commuting to Glasgow since the ride is less than an hour. That way we get the best of both cities.
I have a Railfan friend living in Edinburgh. He works for ScotRail as an assistant train director. He commutes from Edinburgh to Glascow every day, but watch out the trains are shitte DMU's. Hardly anything is loco hauled any more.
For an hour I'm sure I could deal. If I can handle 4 trips on the E, riding that train should be a breeze (that is if it doesn't fall off the rails).
The Scottish spelling is "shite", not "shitte". I heard, but I don't know if it's true, that at one point there was a law that every town in Britain with more than 1000 (or was it 10000) people had to have at least daily rail service, no matter the condition. But then even Highlands is denser than most of America, so it probably wasn't that outlandish.
But then even Highlands is denser than most of America, so it probably wasn't that outlandish.
The Highlands pop density approaches that of Maine. Nobody lives there.
What is the population density of the Highlands? There is the political district of "Highlands and Islands", but I don't know what the density of the mainland Highlands are.
Great! If this is your first trip to Europe, be ready for a real treat.
I'll be traveling with a friend to London over the President's Day weekend to ride Croydon Tramlink and Midland Metro in Birmingham.
Then again leaving 8 March for Wien (Vienna), visiting Bratislava and Graz, then on to Budapest, returning to the states 19 March.
The tram system in Vienna is one of the best.
Zurich has a very good system. They have approximately 14 meter-gauge tram lines. They do, run as they say, like a Swiss Watch. Also, get over to Basel, there is a very interesting system there also.
Of course, going from Zurich to Milan, go either via the Gotthard pass, or on the BLS via Bern - Brig - Simplon tunnel. Either route is a treat; however, the BLS is my favorite.
And then, Milan, well there are still Peter Witts there!
After a trip to Europe, as good as the CTA has become, they still have plenty of room for improvement.
Gut Reisen!
Jim K.
Chicago
You know, I was always curious about the track gauge on Zurich's trams. I was there in 1977 and noticed it was rather narrow. From there we continued on to Italy via St. Gottard's Pass. The thing I remember most was seeing, of all things, an AMC Pacer on the side of the road.
You shouldn't forget to visit Germany if you like trams. Kassel has new lowfloor trams from Bombardier that look very nice. Hannover's tram-subway has some cool new LRVs from Alstom.
Scratch Milan and add Paris. The better half (wife) injected her opinion :)
Then will you be taking the Chunnel?
BUT OF COURSE!
Have done it twice via first class. Also once to Brussels.
The EuroStar is sooooooo cool. There's nothing like riding a TGV style train at nearly 200 mph. And to think that some people here in SubTalk get a woody when a TA train goes 45! :)
Let me know what good pubs you find in London; I'm planning on spending a week or so in London sometime this year. I'm already looking forward to it, as this will be my first-ever trip overseas. Hopefully this will be a good way to re-connect with my family roots (my grandfather grew up in a rural town near London before coming to the US after World War II), and hopefully get inspired by some of the incredible modernist architecture that's going up over there right now. My biggest worry is that I may like it so much that I'll do something really crazy like actually move there.
Finances permitting, I may also grab Eurostar for a side trip over to Paris. Paris would ideally justify its own week-long stay, but a day or two would be enough to wet my appetite for some future trip.
Have a great trip... Hopefully I won't be too far behind you.
-- David
Chicago, IL
My "favourite" pub is the White Lion Pub in Covent Garden. It's one block south of the Covent Garden tube station (Piccadilly Line).
>>>My biggest worry is that I may like it so much that I'll do something really crazy like actually move there.<<<
I'm fighting the same urges myself! The London Underground is currently looking for train drivers as they have a severe staff shortage. They're paying the equivalent of $40,000 a year (27,000 pounds). A little low but when you consider that it's only a 35 hour work week and you get EIGHT weeks paid vacation, it makes you think!
>>>Finances permitting, I may also grab Eurostar for a side trip over to Paris. Paris would ideally justify its own week-long stay, but a day or two would be enough to wet my appetite for some future trip.<<<
Two words: DO IT!!!! The Eurostar is a MUST RIDE at nearly 200 mph!!! And the Paris Metro is pretty cool as well, though the vandals hit the Paris trains kind of hard there.
But don't miss the Eurostar and Paris! But bypass Brussels. It's like being in The Bronx. The cheapest round trip ticket is $100 (70 pounds).
Click here for the Eurostar website
>>> >>>Finances permitting, I may also grab Eurostar for a side trip over to Paris. Paris would ideally justify its own week-long stay, but a day or two would be enough to wet my appetite for some future trip.<<<
Two words: DO IT!!!! <<<
David;
Unless this will be your only chance to see Paris, I would suggest not diluting your London trip. One week is too short to properly see London and the surrounding area, and a day or two in Paris is also not enough. On your next trip, fly into London and immediately take the Eurostar to Paris to enjoy the ride. Avoid the "If it's Tuesday, this must be Belgium" syndrome. It's much better to get to know one place well rather than two superficially.
Tom
Brussels is a great place. Plenty for railfans, and some of the best Art Nouveau architecture in Europe. Finding the best spots takes some work, but is worth it.
If any of you who are planning a trip over here and want to join me for a days railfanning send me a mail. Your most welcome.
Simon
Swindon UK
I was in Brussels in 1978, and my impression was so-so. Our hotel was a dump, right across the street from a brand new Sheraton, and I didn't get to see one of its more famous attractions, the fountain Mannekin Pis.
Hahahaha! Please don't tell me that your hotel was the "Hotel Le Dome" which we've since nicknamed "Hotel Of Doom"!
We arrived in Brussels at 3 PM and left at 9 AM the next morning. The only reason that we stayed that long was because the 9 pm Thalys train to Amsterdam was sold out. What a dump!
Very good accomodation is available around the Avenue Louise to the south of the famous tourist attractions. It's expensive during the week, but there are bargains to be had Friday to Sunday night, especially as hotels charge by the room and not by the person. Extensive trams and the metro system make getting around the city easy.
I was in Brussels in 1978, and my impression was so-so. Our hotel was a dump, right across the street from a brand new Sheraton, and I didn't get to see one of its more famous attractions, the fountain Mannekin Pis.
I was there in 1985, and it seemed like a decent enough place. Took a couple of short train rides to explore nearby cities (Louvain and Charleroi), they were nice too and the trains were cool.
I'm fighting the same urges myself! The London Underground is currently looking for train drivers as they have a severe staff shortage. They're paying the equivalent of $40,000 a year (27,000 pounds). A little low but when you consider that it's only a 35 hour work week and you get EIGHT weeks paid vacation, it makes you think!
Watch out, the cost of living in the UK will really eat into that. Basically taxes pay for your 8 weeks of vacation. Its odd, my Scotrail friend is desperately trying to find some way to move to the US and get a job with an American railroad. He can't stand the UK rail system any more.
Two words: DO IT!!!! The Eurostar is a MUST RIDE at nearly 200 mph!!! And the Paris Metro is pretty cool as well, though the vandals hit the Paris trains kind of hard there.
But don't miss the Eurostar and Paris! But bypass Brussels. It's like being in The Bronx. The cheapest round trip ticket is $100 (70 pounds).
The EuroStar was just as exciting as any other TGV line the only dofferance being they didn't accpet our rail pass and charged us 99L each for a round trip. I wasn't really turned on much by the TGV's. They were clearly built for transport, not railfans. The view was limited. Those dedicated RoW's are extremely boring and the ride was so smooth that is less exciting than a 90mph Amtrak ride. Aside from the dull farms and fields whizzing by there is nothing that lets you know that you're moving at 186 mph. Those routes seriously need some open vestabules, jointed rail and some lateral motion.
Mike,you get plenty of that when you cross the Channel and then slog the last eighty miles or so to London :) But help is at hand. The new rail link is coming on fine and will be open in a couple of years.
Simon
Swindon UK
Mike,you get plenty of that when you cross the Channel and then slog the last eighty miles or so to London :) But help is at hand. The new rail link is coming on fine and will be open in a couple of years.
On the UK side we were going to slow for it to be exciting. God, it was like being on the Amtrak Three Rivers while its riding Approach signals on CSX. Our speed varied from 30-60mph as we trundled along a little 2 track suburban commuter line. Hey, did I really see what looked like farm raised Deer?
I didn't see any deer but I did see cows, horses..............oh and a few sheep (dripping of sarcasm).
Up to Bromley South (about ten miles frmm central London most of the line is cleared for 80 -90mph. From Bromley it it 50 - 60 mph through suburbia. You may well have seen farmed Deer. Check out www.ctrl.co.uk for up to date progress of the new line. When I was down there last it was a huge linear building site. When it is built there are loads of places to see trains racing along at 186 mph (we hope).
Simon
Swindon UK
Isn't that exactly what one would want out of high-speed rail? The passengers (customers) are supposed to get there as fast as possible, feeling as comfortable as possible.
I paid for a exciting ride. I was expecting something like what Majour Kong got. My 100mph Amtrak ride in the rear vestabule was a much more thrilling. AaaaaaaaaaHooooo!
Was it not you in Mission Impossible ?
Simon
Swindon UK
More like, "Mission Ridiculous".
Peace,
ANDEE
I wasn't really turned on much by the TGV's. They were clearly built for transport, not railfans.
As they should be. Most riders aren't railfans.
Who's fault is that?
Can I suggest saving some money and riding the old MU's to Dover and then the ferry? The old MU's sound something like our old electrics and the ferry is a nice little sea cruise. Takes time sure, but get a chance to see the fabled White Cliffs of Dover.
My preferred port on the continent side? Ostend is quite nice. But then the Calais ferry has ships where the Ostend one has faster catamarans which are sverely prone to heavy weather. There were a lot of sick passengers on the sail out of Ostende, but then it was quite windy. Ostende, however is a treasure (also has a light rail line)
Is there any way to cross the channel on a Higgan's Boat?
[But bypass Brussels. It's like being in The Bronx.]
Well now let's not get too extreme. Perhaps Brussels is not as nice as London or Paris, but it couldn't be like the Bronx.
Oh really?!? It was nothing but abandoned buildings and depression.
And the rail terminals including Bruxelles-Midi where the Eurostar and Thalys trains stop were one word: SEEDY.
Never again. My wife shudders at having to pass through Midi even to make a connection. Oh and ATM's there are out of the question.
You want seedy? Go to London and take a quick stroll round the outside of Kings Cross or Paddington station at night. All cities have their unpleasant spots, and all too often they are near major railway stations. Alternatively, take the Underground to New Cross Gate, and then a 171 bus to Elephant & Castle. I know where I would rather spend a holiday.
Ride report on the TGV and ICE, etc.
When you visit the LU Museum's Acton Town depot, make absolutely sure to take pictures of the restored four car unit of 1938 tube stock; the 1938 tube stock was the most groundbreaking type of tube train ever built.
-Robert King
I will take pictures of absolutely everything when I'm at Acton Town. Even the friggin' litterbins!
Don't forget Croydon's new light-rail system while you're in London.
What station or station have the extremest weather conditions.
We have of course two catagories. Above ground and below ground.
Where do you nominate for most snow accumulation, least accumulation.?
Coldest in winter or coolest in summer?
Hottest in summer and warmest in winter?
Windiest above and below ground?
Noisest above and below?
Most or least rain , Above only?
Most constant flowing stream of water in center of tracks?
Longest standing pool of water?
Most sighting of wildlife.
Greatest flock of pigeons?
Please feel free to add to the extremes.
avid
Hoo-boy. I thought my role as "SubTalk Meteorologist" was in jeopardy!
I'll just hang out at the STORMFAN WINDOW and wait to hear others' thoughts on this!
Hey Todd: If you ever lose your job as Sub-Talk Meterologist, don't sweat it. Just migrate over to Bus-Talk and assume the job. After your performance in driving 6169 at Sea Shore, you're in the running for the job as Bus-Talk's answer to Ralph Kramden.
Hehe, thanks. I'm an equal opportunity "driver." Rail and buses have both been my passion (I got my bus driver's license on my 18th birthday!). But I had to wait until my 30s until I got the chance to operate a trolley and subway car. DON'T LET THAT HAPPEN TO YOU! JOIN A TROLLEY MUSEUM THIS SPRING!
14th Street-Union Square, the IRT platform in particular, has long been noted as being a real furnace in the summer.
In the past, Grand Central IRT has roasted it share of Turkeys in the summer as well.
This year(winter 2000-2001) I think the Rockaway stations had less snow pile up as compared to the El stattions in the Bronx.
Now to find the highs and lows. I beleive the Rockaways will take coolest during the summer.
Perhaps stations of the LIRR and Metronorth should be included as well.
Then I beleive snow records will shift north and west.
avid
As an addition to chuchubob's post, here are my reflections on our Friday Philly Fun:
My trip started on Amtrak's Train # 181 from NYP to 30th Street Station. This was not an unusual trip, aside from the fact that my seat-check disappeared somewhere after Trenton. The conductor (or assistant) didn't press me after told him I had already given his colleague my ticket and showed him my receipt, but he did call out to a fellow crew-member that mine was the third instance of a missing seat-check. ("There must be a ghost on this train…") I suppose being the third "victim" helped, but I wonder what I would have done had he insisted I pay again! We arrived on time at PHL, and I walked up to the main concourse to meet chuchubob.
He soon arrived, and we planned our day. We decided to kill time out on the parking lot overlooking the station leads and lay-up yard north of the station, while waiting for the next R6 to Norristown. I (hopefully) got some good pix of one of the Acela Express trainsets, several other locomotives (including some HHP-8s) and approaching / departing trains. This is a great spot!
Next it was on to SEPTA's Regional Rail Line R6, but not before I picked up some new batteries for my camera. Thankfully, there was a store right on the SEPTA concourse, which had 2 or 3 packages of my type of battery left. Lucky me. Day passes were then purchased, and we made our way up onto the platform to immediately board a 2-car Silverliner(?). Then it was on through Suburban and Market East (Reading Terminal) before the conductor came through collecting tickets.
The R6 trip was a nice ride. The interior of the train seems recently refurbished, and the seats were comfortable. The scenery, travelling along the Schuylkill River, was quite lovely, even in the dead of winter (the fact that we managed to benefit from a sunshiny day might have helped). I was fascinated by an abandoned (why?!) Pennsy branch, which traverses the river on a great, latticed, stone arch bridge, still supplied with catenary poles. What a great structure! (Bob or someone will have to help me out with the name of the line and the exact location of the bridge.) This reminded me of the West Shore line and abandoned Cumberland Valley RR Bridge at Harrisburg. It was about this time that we discussed our preference for electric railroads, though still professing our appreciation for all things rail. Bob told me a tale of a trip he took on the Susquehanna branch from D.C. to Harrisburg (at 25mph or so!) shortly before its abandonment. This was fascinating to me, since you can no longer do this as a railroad passenger. I wish I had had this option when I lived in Washington, but, alas, at that time it was Greyhound or nothing from our nation's capital to Pennsylvania's. Hearing about Bob's experience riding behind GG-1s made me envious, since I will never be able to do this either. Perhaps he'll post a bit about those trips someday, should the subject arise.
Soon we arrived in Norristown. After snapping some pix of the route 100 Kawasakis(?) from street-level, up we went for the ride to 69th St. Terminal. There we witnessed a guy trying to sweet-talk the operator into letting him slide on the fare (no dice) and asking us for a little help (craps again). We paid our fares and were soon on our way. On this leg, Bob and I discussed, among other things, the P&W Bullet Cars, which he used to ride to work. It would be the next day when I would ride one such car (#205) at the Rockhill Trolley Museum. [While there, I told #205 that the Line and chuchubob said hello. :o) ]
Our arrival at 69th Street Terminal afforded us the opportunity to snap some pix from the P&W platform. Here, the winter season helped, as some of Bob's video and my photography would have been impossible with leaves in full-bloom on the surrounding trees. Soon we were off to find a bite to eat and to photograph the Sharon Hill / Media LRVs. [BTW, as soon as the photos are processed, I'll send any that are significantly different from the current crop to Dave for posting. I am still trying to find time to (learn how to and) build my own site!]
After walking a bit down (beside, of course) the route 102 right-of-way to a pretty good curve in the line for photos, we hoofed-it back to the terminal and hopped aboard an MFL train of brand new M-4s. A (very friendly) woman beat us to the railfan seat (there's actually a seat facing out the scratchitti-free front window - excellent!), so Bob copped the 2nd seat, where he was able to shoot to the side of and over her head. I, being a New York citizen, took a familiar position standing at the storm door with my camera, snapping photos along the way as we tooled down the el. From this el, there is a great view of the center city skyline, perhaps unparalleled in New York. A comparable vista might be the short snippet of skyline viewing leaving Smith/9th Sts., if you're lucky enough to be on a Queens-bound 'G' train consisting of R-32s. The structures along the el, however, seemed rather slummish - quite sad.
Next we transferred to the BSL at 15th / City Hall, walking through a rather complex concourse, which reminded me somewhat of the 6th Avenue Subway concourses here in New York. After a short trip to Walnut-Locust, we transferred to PATCO. Of interest on PATCO was:
1) Yet another seat actually facing out the front window (we only managed the 2nd seat again, but the front-seat-occupant was slumped-down enough for us to enjoy the view.
2) The motorman's "cab" is actually not a cab at all, but a curtained "coral" (complete with a keyhole!!?!). Unfortunately, the motorman closed the aforementioned drape, barring our view of his "operations."
3) Franklin Square Station, abandoned, but in incredibly pristine condition. According to Bob, used to be filled with stacks upon stacks of Cold War fallout provisions.
4) The ride over the bridge - the view is not as obstructed as the one from the Manny-B or Willy-B. Unfortunately, you have to look at Camden! Next time, I'll sit looking out the back.
5) NJT's Atlantic City Line. Close to the river, it's in a deep cut, built for stack-freight trains. Sadly, we just missed coinciding with an NJT train because I had to get that one last shot of a Route 102 car!
We rode back to ride the BSL, transferring to the spur at 8th. There's another abandoned station on this line, after Chinatown, which looks much more like the vandalized Worth, 18th, and 91st Street stations I'm used to from the IRT. There's only a faux (tinted) railfan window to the left on these trains, which we had part of the time, including going around the loop at Fern Rock. After alighting the platform there, a SEPTA towerman approached us before too long, asking me if we "had permission to film there." After acting confused and saying "I was only taking pictures," and "Do you need permission? Sorry, I didn't know," and "No, we don't," he gave a nod of his head, went back into the tower and picked up the phone, at which time we "casually" walked down the platform a bit before re-boarding the first car as it was about to head southbound. I have no idea how close a call that was, but I wouldn't want it to happen again.
On our way to Pattison, we decided at one point to transfer to the express, only to watch the T/O overshoot the platform and back up! The T/O chuckled and made some noise about bad brakes directed at SEPTA employees milling about the platform. I was chuckling too, but, to tell you the truth, I was not really laughing with him.
After revisiting some old memories at The Vet, it was time to head westward to meet Mom and Dad at a reasonable hour. Bob and I hopped back aboard the Broad Street subway at Pattison, which is an exceptionally long station, owing to its allotment for the parking of numerous sporting event "special" trains. We parted company at Walnut-Locust so Bob could catch PATCO back to New Jersey. I continued on to City Hall, where I transferred to a Subway trolley to 30th Street. After all, variety is the spice of life, and I had already ridden the Market Street subway that day!
After walking about a mile down the platform, I was finally on board the Keystone train and on my way "home." Saturday was spent at the Rockhill Trolley Museum members' and friends' Winter Trolleyfest with Dad. Far too quickly, it was Sunday and time for my return trip. Dad dropped me off at the train station about an hour early, which afforded me the chance to take a roll of photos, which I will try to post as soon as they're processed. I think I got some good shots of the GG-1. I noticed that the NS freight lines at Harrisburg are very busy on Sunday mornings. I saw at least six running on the lines beside the passenger station, and one on the old Reading RR overpass. (Jersey Mike might know the branch names.) Unfortunately, Amtrak decided to obstruct my shots of these freights by pulling onto their maintenance track just as 2 NS trains bread-and-buttered at what would have been a beautiful, unobstructed spot beside the Amtrak platform on which I stood. Much whispered cursing ensued as I stood there fuming within sight of 3 or 4 of the ubiquitous "No Trespassing" signs! I suppose the 4 or 5 Amtrak employees who saw me figured I was harmless and left me alone.
This good luck continued all the way through my subway ride home in New York, where a good samaritan (a kid!) warned me that my backpack was open sometime after emerging from the Queens Connector. I must have narrowly avoided the theft of my camera, which it turns out was hanging halfway out of my bag.
Some days, God smiles on railfans. Praise be.
Well, the Route 100 cars aren't Kawasakis, but the not well liked Adtranz cars. The M-4s are from teh same company. The Kawasakis are the 101/102 cars and the trolley cars in the city.
>>>Well, the Route 100 cars aren't Kawasakis, but the not well liked Adtranz cars. The M-4s are from the same company. The Kawasakis are the 101/102 cars and the trolley cars in the city. <<<
Oh, yeah. Thanks. I'm still green when it comes to Philly. I've heard the Adtranz cars run into problems because they can't be overstressed when the need arises, like the Bullets could be.
>>>Well, the Route 100 cars aren't Kawasakis, but the not well liked Adtranz cars. The M-4s are from the same company. The Kawasakis are the 101/102 cars and the trolley cars in the city. <<<
>>>Oh, yeah. Thanks. I'm still green when it comes to Philly. I've heard the Adtranz cars run into problems because they can't be overstressed when the need arises, like the Bullets could be. <<<
...because the fancy computer programming does not allow it.
The Kawasakis are the 101/102 cars and the trolley cars in the city.
And the BSS trains.
The currently unused bridge over the Schuylkill carried the Pennsy's Manayunk Local to Manayunk after leaving the Main Line at the now defunct 52nd Street station and pasing through Bala Cynwyd, where the line (the other end of the R6)now terminates.
Great post, Pete.
The lines you saw around Harrisburg were the Lurgan Branch (the route on the Reading Bridge), the Royalton Branch (the line that runs on the Amtrak RoW w/o any catenary) and the Harrisburg Line (it makes a why jct. w/ the Lurgan Branch and then turns east.)
Bob told me a tale of a trip he took on the Susquehanna branch from D.C. to Harrisburg (at 25mph or so!) shortly before its abandonment.
Is not the Susquehanna branch, its the Port Road Line* and it was never abandonned. NS freight trains use it every night and its still Cab Signaled.
NJT's Atlantic City Line. Close to the river, it's in a deep cut, built for stack-freight trains. Sadly, we just missed coinciding with an NJT train because I had to get that one last shot of a Route 102 car!
The Atlantic City Line has never seen an intermodal train in its life. Before PATCO the line through Haddonfield was at grade level. The Delair Bridge Branch joined the main PRSL line just west of the Haddonfield station at VERNON interlocking. The Bridge Branch was at a lower level than the PRSL main and train would have to struggle out of what was called "The Hole" (I have a pic, the grade was very steep). Anyway there was another, opposite grade east of town. Basically the trench alignment keeps the Atlantic City Line on a level surface and eliminated 2 grades.
2) The motorman's "cab" is actually not a cab at all, but a curtained "coral" (complete with a keyhole!!?!). Unfortunately, the motorman closed the aforementioned drape, barring our view of his "operations."
Yeah, the keyhole is a stitch. When the PATCO trains get SRO people will open the little door and sit in the operators position in each car. This can provide seating for up to 11 extra people.
Hearing about Bob's experience riding behind GG-1s made me envious, since I will never be able to do this either. Perhaps he'll post a bit about those trips someday, should the subject arise.
You're lucky. My dad goes on and on about how he got a job in 1966 working at Prudential in Newark and he bought monthly PRR commuter passes and would drive to Trenton to catch the train. His pass was good on all trains and he would usually catch a GG-1 hauled train every day on the way up and the way back. He has another story where he got out late and had to settle for an MP-54 train that terminated at Princeton Jct. While waiting for something to take him back to Trenton he saw a light down the track. He thought it was going to stop so he hustled up to the track. It then became clear that this train was NOT going to stop and he only had time to take 1 step back before a GG-1 blazed through at 100 mph not 2 feet from his face. Talk about an exteriance to remember.
>>>Is not the Susquehanna branch, its the Port Road Line* and it was never abandonned. NS freight trains use it every night and its still Cab Signaled. <<<
Of course, I meant "abandoned" as far as Amtrak. I should have used a different word. I've watched many a freight running on the West Shore.
>>>The Atlantic City Line has never seen an intermodal train in its life. <<<
This I knew, but I thought the cut was to accomodate the increase height of potential freights, even if only a few or none ever graced the line. The grade issue makes sense too.
>>>He has another story where he got out late and had to settle for an MP-54 train that terminated at Princeton Jct. While waiting for something to take him back to Trenton he saw a light down the track. He thought it was going to stop so he hustled up to the track. It then became clear that this train was NOT going to stop and he only had time to take 1 step back before a GG-1 blazed through at 100 mph not 2 feet from his face. Talk about an exteriance to remember. <<<
Wish I could have seen that G! :o)
OK,
Someone out there probably knows the specifics on the TA's half fare program of the mid 70's designed to encourage people to use the subways on weekends (and holidays?).
When you purchased a token or paid a bus fare you got a transfer for your return trip home, getting to walk through the exit door to enter the station platform stairs area.
I believe the genesis of this was the budget crunch/high crime combo of the 1970's. They were trying to generate more fare revenue and by having more riders, hopefully cut down on crime.
Anyone out there have more on this program? The start and finish dates, hours and days it was 1/2 price. Almost postive it started when the fare was 35 cents and continued when it increased to 50 cents.
Please add your two cents on this post.
Thanks.
I vaguely remember the half fare program when the fare was 50 cents. It lasted all day on Sundays when the fare was a quarter. When you boarded the subway, you received a white & orange dated transfer good for one fare anytime that day. When you boarded the bus, you just paid 25 cents. If you paid with a token on the bus, you lost the difference providing that you rode by yourself. One token however would pay for two people riding together.
OK,
Someone out there probably knows the specifics on the TA's half fare program of the mid 70's designed to encourage people to use the subways on weekends (and holidays?).
When you purchased a token or paid a bus fare you got a transfer for your return trip home, getting to walk through the exit door to enter the station platform stairs area.
I believe the genesis of this was the budget crunch/high crime combo of the 1970's. They were trying to generate more fare revenue and by having more riders, hopefully cut down on crime.
Anyone out there have more on this program? The start and finish dates, hours and days it was 1/2 price. Almost positive it started when the fare was 35 cents and continued when it increased to 50 cents.
Please add your two cents on this post.
Thanks.
You're right. It started at 35 cents and continued when it was 50 cents. This led to four fares in four days when the changeover occurred as mentioned on this page this rapidtransit.net.
I don't recall an anti-crime component to the fare experiment. They were trying to see what would happen to riding if half-fares were tried and riding increased substantially.
The commuter lines were included. The LIRR actually made more money on the half-fare--i.e., weekend ridership more than doubled, but they were the only unit of the MTA that did so.
This time, they're complaining that Transit has hired too many car cleaners, and thus the annual Straphangers cleanliness survey found fewer dirty cars than it did a year ago.
Ain't that just too bad...
Here's a link Make up your own mind
Peace,
ANDEE
What was the title, author, publisher, and ISBN of that $60 book the transit museum was selling that was sort of an imitation of Jim Greller's NYC Subway Car book ? Will it ever be reprinted and was it worth the money ?
The book is called "Evolution of New York City Subways, 1867-1997, by Gene Sansome (retired transit engineer). Its a beautiful hard-cover book, worth every penny in my opinion. Color photos, schematics, diagrams, history for each transit and subway car. A very nice job. I've looked through it many times. A great "coffee table book" too.
It also has blueprint-style drawings ove every type of subway car, with measurements on the modern ones.
-Hank
Yes indeed. I will be using those to help my friend build the R-68 molds.
IMHO, the NYC subway car book by Gene Sansone (published in conjunction with the Transit Museum), makes a nice companion book to James Greller's "New York City Subway Cars".
The Sansone book covers more history than Greller's since Sansone goes back to the days of rapid transit in its infancy (converted steam coaches), whereas Greller's book only covers the R type. While the Sansone book is primarily b&w photographs, it does provide much better reproductions of subway car schematic diagrams than Greller's. Of course if you are looking for sharp color shots of subway cars for hobby purposes, the Greller book makes an excellent reference.
I recommend them both. Look for the re-issue of the Sansone book sometime later this year. The Greller one is fairly easy to find.
BMTman
Did I say "color photos" in a prev. post? Sorry. Only on the jacket..
Actually, I think the Sansone books has a color spread somewhere at the center of back of the book, but nothing to compete with Greller's shots.
BMTman
What year was James Greller's book published?
This afternoon about 3:30 PM while railfanning at Grand Central, I happen to see an Uptown 6 train full of WF R 36s all 10 cars. The car #s are in this configuration. North Bound: 9420 9421 9405 9404 9429 9428 9427 9426 9457 9456. I thought it was the usual Pelham batch. However when 9420 came into the station, I was like HUH???????? I just saw this consist on the 7 this past Sat. I believe the reason for these cars temporarily on the 6 is due to the R 142As O/O/S till further notice. ( I did see 1 R 142A consist with the lights off 7281-7290.I think they are/were doing simulated stops.)
The 6 did already have a 10-car consist of r36WF's..
..or atleast Union Square showed it.
I remeber that when OPTO trains just began, That the C on weekends ran between 168 and WTC. The news reports said that the C, G and 6 were going to be OPTO lines on weekends. Now, the 6 had R-62's, and the G had r-46's, but, r-32's can't be OPTOed, so what cars did they use? Does anyone know?
OPTO was never implemented due to the extension to Euclid Avenue on the weekends. As of now the current OPTO lines are the:
5 Shuttle- Dyre Av to E 180 St (late nights)
Grand Central-Times Sq Shuttle (24 hours). This line is unique in the fact that the line actually uses two T/O's and no C/R.
Franklin Shuttle (24 hours)
Rockaway Park Shuttle (24 hours)
G- Court Sq to Smith-9 Sts (weekends)
B Shuttle- 36 St to Stillwell Av (late nights)
So why not the R??
Is it because of how the R has to be relayed and/or breaking up an 8 car train and storeing causes more man hours then would be saved without the C/R?
Rock Park shuttle, does it run during rush? So it is true 24hr shuttle?
I know the 2nd one is just symantics (sp?).
Cutting a train is a one man operation that can be easily performed by the Station Switchman. I believe the R Shuttle uses 4 cars as it is. It certainly is a candidate for OPTO.
And yes the Rock Pk S runs 24 hours including rush hours.
Last two times I was on the R shuttle it was a full train of 46's but it was still early 11pm.
Yup. Too early.
That shuttle that you were operating layed up on 3 track in the 45th to 53rd Street area.
The two all night shuttles use four cars each and couple back together for the early AM rush.
Also an interesting tidbit on the R shuttle. At night 2 track between 86 St and 95 St is used for layups. So 1 track in this area is used for service in both directions. Wrong railed shuttles go over the switch north of 86 St to get back on 2 track.
The Jan. 2001 subway map sez that northbound R shuttles skip 45th and 53rd Sts. Why is this?
I have a lunch relief on the R overnight. This week at least, it used one four car set of R46 cars-the C/R was in the rear car
Why does the R shuttle skip 53 and 45 Sts. northbound, as stated in the MAP?
It does?
In the newest version, at least, in the "Special Night Service" section.
I think it's either to maintain a decent headway, or to reduce the amount of switching required. If the R uses the express track from 59th to 36th, it does not have to merge with the N at all. And, the B Shuttle and the R shuttle would both arrive on the express at 36, so they can be turned in an identical manner.
The northbound R shuttle actually discharges all passengers at 59 St and then runs light to the relay position north of 36 St on 4 track (N/B exp). It is done this way to avoid a conflict with the B shuttle which relays in the same position. Also to avoid a situation where a person refuses to disembark the R at 36 St thus causing a delay to B service. Northbound service runs in service to 36 St via the local track only in the event of a G.O.
Southbound service always starts at 36 St.
Thanks. Ignore the same question that I just posted again before I read this repsonse.
zman gave the answer in another post. Going northbound, the last stop on the R shuttle is 59th St/4 Av.The shuttle then relays, via the express track, to just north of 36th St/4 Av where it is turned to go back to 95th St. The shuttle goes back into service at 36th St going southbound.
Why can't OPTO be done on the R-32 cars?
Primarily because of the corner cabs - the motorman would have to walk up to the other end of the car or through the storm door to the car ahead, open up the cab, cut in the door controls, do the gyrations, then close up and return to the normal cab. The geese would be MIGHTY unhappy with the wait ... MIGHTY unhappy. OPTO is a cinch with a full width cab where you just have to go to the other side of it ... but that's the deal there.
And the extra money the T/O gets for OPTO!! Hahahaha
Woohoo! :)
i got two questions:
when will the new WMATA metrorail cars be introduced and put into service?
what kind of buses does metro plan to buy in the near future? plus why does metro bother to refurbish the old flxibles and not go out and buy some new ones?
Some of the new CAF cars are supposed to go into service this month. THey need them bad for the Green Line. It sounds like they need about 20 or 30 more cars period to help the overcrowding.
WMATA seems to be buying lots of Orions. A batch of CNG's by New Flyer are supposed to be purchased as well.
As for refurbishing buses, it costs over $300,000 to buy a new bus, compared to under $100,000 to refurbish one. Economics is the main reason. Why spend all this money on a new bus, when they can fix one up to run as good or better than the new ones.
26 is the exact number. They go into service later this month.
As for the buses, you are also correct about that. It costs less money to refurbish them.
If I recall correctly, in Los Angeles the old Southern Calif. Rapid Transit District (RTD, now called MTA) had a requirement where every bus had to have its diesel engine pulled out and completely rebuilt periodically to maintain emission standards (every 30,000 miles??)
Would anyone like to comment on this? Is my figure correct? What do other agencies do?
Does anyone know what the status of the 296 Rohr cars is? Last time I was in DC, they were rather scarce; I only saw them on the Red line, some in mixed consists with 2000-series Bredas, others in solid trains.
thanks in advance
wayne
The Rohr's are still running strong every day of the week. Its possible you may have been here when they were being rehabbed, but they are on every line, especially the Red and Orange. I'm not so sure if they run much on the Green, but come to DC now and you'll most likely be on one.
How did Rohr not fulfill ny other orders? Did they lose subsequent bids? Did they exit the railcar business (joining Pullman and Budd)?
Rohr, headquartered in Chula Vista, California, has been out of the rail car business for a number of years; I'm not sure of the exact number.
The Passenger railcar business is a b***h, isn't it?
Who's doing it now? Bombardier (which includes the ANF carbody builder in France), Kawasaki, Breda in Italy, and a Spanish firm(CAF, right?). Morrison-Knudson tried to get into it (and did a good job rebuilding cars, but couldn't make a profit at it), Budd's out, Pullman-Standard's out. Adtranz is now part of Bombardier, so they don't count as a separate competitor.
Does Vickers (made subway cars for PATCO line in Philly) still do it?
I remember when Boeing-Vertol tried to do it, and failed because while the lightweight designs were progressive, they didn't understand how to build something that could take a steady pounding day to day for years.
There's also Siemens in Germany and Alstom in France. CAF is the Spanish firm making the new DC cars as well as new LRVs for Sacramento, Cal.
What about Franco-Belge(France) and Hitachi(Japan)? They built cars for MARTA.
Thanks, didn't think of them. Do they do any US-based assembly work or use US components (motors, brakes etc.)?
I don't think any Rohrs operate out of Greenbelt or Branch, limiting them to the other lines. Yellow only gets a Rohr train on occasion.
I did ride a Rohr train on Green line just before it was extended to Branch Avenue. I was very surprised.
Chaohwa
I have seen/ridden Green Line Rohrs once or twice, too. Even rarer, I got a 6 car green line train last spring with 4 Rohrs (R) and 2 Bredas (B) like this:
R-R-B-B-R-R
That kind of consist is even rarer than something like this:
R-R-B-B-B-B or R-R-R-R-B-B!
The Green line's lack of car diversity should end by the end of the month with the introduction of the CAF cars.
I didn't think they had any or that many on the Green Line. I do remember one occasion a few years ago when the Green Line ran from Greenbelt to Farragut North, a couple slipped through. Its possible they were using some Brentwood trains since they went right past there while they used the Red Line tracks.
It would be more likely then than now but even so, all green line shortcut trains I ever saw were Bredas. If you remember, the shortcut ran every 9 minutes (normal frequency is 6) so very few additional cars were needed, if any.
That's true. I used to have a laugh when people at Metro Center would get on the Green Line to Farragut North without realizing it wasn't a Red Line and you'd see them scurry off of it like it was going to blow up if they didn't just get off at the next stop.
That was a strange consist your train had with the Breda sandwich. Its odd hearing a train with a Rohr and a Breda on it as the Rohr has the whining sound and the Breda's make more of a buzzing sound, except for the 2000's which don't really sound like anything.
Well, it's not exactly over $300,000 to buy all new buses, you know. SEPTA's NABIs were only about $250,000 dollars. Also, people like riding new buses, rather than having to ride the same old ones forever. And you can only do so much with a bus. Also, on SEPTA's regional rail trains, they really did a great job refurbishing them. At first, I had thought they were brand new. In addition to that, I was surprised to learn that the Silverliner IVs were from 1974-1976. I thought they were at least from the 80's.
Although I have lived all my years in Chicago and love our "L", there are those other yearnings that must be satisfied so I'm building a portable Northeast Corridor layout to run my Acela Express trains at 130 plus. Spectrum really turned a corner with their Acela. I need news of the real Acela to add to my website which combines both Amtrak and the model. I invite SubTalkers to visit and help out with info.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/acelatrains
Today, we have a bag of goodies for your reading pleasure.
I have a number of topics that do not render enough material for a
full column, so we'll assemble them all into one big column.
Lots of strange and weird things happen daily on the railroad.
Having been a part of this lifestyle for well over 22 years
now, I have had the opportunity to see many of them, or at
least observe the aftermath of some of them.
We'll start out by going way back to 1979. I got called to work a
night job at the old 26th Street Yard while at the MoPac. In
my travels to work, I observed that the police had the 23rd
Street road crossing closed. I also noticed what appeared to
be rail cars sitting on the street itself. Upon arriving at the
yard office, I inquired to Yardmaster Tommy Seehausen as
to what was going on. He told me the story.
The EJ&E had delivered a large cut to us earlier in the evening.
Apparently, they applied insufficient hand brakes to the cut.
Being that this yard sits on the downward side of a hill that
rolls north, sufficient hand brakes are vital. And being the J
delivered lots of loads of steel to us daily here, all those
hand brakes were absolutely necessary. As the Heights Car
Inspector began to inspect the cars and bleed the air off
them to allow the yard job to switch them, the air brakes
were being released on this cut. This is why you apply hand
brakes. The cut began to roll northward down the hill.
The cut rolled across 26th Street road crossing (protected by gates
but with a very short approach) and missed colliding with
any vehicular traffic. The cut continued to roll until they
started around the connection to the J where they
encountered a derail. The cars derailed but continued to roll.
All that steel and the momentum. The derail was right near
the 23rd Street road crossing. As the cars reached the road,
they managed to start to turn left and head west down 23rd
Street. As they did so, the began to carve into the pavement
of the street itself and slowed to a stop. Three loads of steel
were heading down the street when the cut finally came to a
stop. Fortunately, no vehicular traffic was struck here either.
I should mention that this is the very same wye that just a few years
later, I would turn that half load of lumber on its side.
In my very early days as a Trainman, I was coupling up a track at
Yard Center while working a night switcher in Eight Yard. As
I walked along the track, I was encountering some box cars
with open doors. An open door is an open invitation to look
inside. Several of the old heads always told me to look
inside to make sure nobody was in there.
So here I am walking and looking. I looked into the door if one
particular car and saw nobody or nothing on the one side.
As I looked to the other side, I see a face looking back at
me. I jumped and screamed, he jumped and screamed and
we both took off in different directions. I ran about half a car
and turned around and saw him heading the other direction.
Hmm, not a psychopath trying to kill me, probably just a
hobo. So I went back and checked the car again. Sure
enough, he had all the fixings of a home on wheels; sleeping
bag unrolled, a duffel bag with his worldly possessions, a
flashlight and some food. I left it all and figured he would be
back as soon as he realized that I too, was not some nut
case looking to kill anybody.
From that time on though, I always found a piece of tie butt or
something to carry with me when walking a track. One just
never knows.
One afternoon in March of 1979, I caught an assignment that was
going to take a delivery of cars over to the IHB at Blue
Island. It had been raining for several days and today was
no exception. The yard at Blue was in terrible shape; tracks
were very rough and looked like wet spaghetti. Ties were
rotted and in some places, disintegrated all together.
We pull into the assigned track (I believe it was what was back
then, two in the south) and proceed to the west end of the
yard. When we got the train in the clear (we managed to fit
the entire train in this track without having to double over), I
went and cut the engines away from the train. As the cut
went into emergency, I started hearing this loud creaking
sound, the same sound an old door would make in a horror
movie. I looked back to the direction it was coming from. It
got louder and faster. I then observed a loaded multilevel of
automobiles in our train starting to lean way over towards
the south. It hesitated a moment and then just went over like
a large California Redwood. Made me want to yell
"TIMBER!" It rolled right over onto the cut of cars in the track
next to us. You should have heard the racket it made.
I got back on the engine and told the Engineer about it. He made
some comment as to how bad the rail is in this yard and
otherwise, didn't seem too concerned. He simply told me to
go to the speaker and call the hump and tell them about it
when we get permission to come out and go back to the
other end. So I did. When I mentioned this to the Hump
Yardmaster, he didn't seem too put out. He asked if anybody
was hurt and I told him no. He then just gave us permission
to come out and go back to the east end. And that was all
there was to that.
While a Student Engineer in 1980, I had to fire two nights a week
on one particular assignment that had an Engineer with a
serious drinking problem. This worked out because I had
Saturdays off, but the assignment had Tuesdays and
Wednesdays off and a relief job covered those two days.
Anyway, the Engineer tells me his is quitting drinking. He
brought a six pack of ginger ale to work instead of his usual
six pack of beer.
We head off to work and make a run to the Belt Railway of
Chicago's Clearing Yard. I recall that it was a very hot day.
This guy keeps feeding me the ginger ale he brought along
instead of drinking it himself. When we arrive at the Clearing
and yard the train, he announces that he is going over to a
nearby gin mill to get a sandwich. The place was well known
to all of us and frequently we went there to eat. I had packed
my own lunch, so I stayed in the air conditioned East Sub
office while we waited for our outbound train to be made
ready.
After about an hour or so, they call us and tell us to go ahead and
tie onto our train and get ready to double it up. I go with the
head man, tie onto the first track and pull it back up to the
office and wait. By now, the Engineer shows back up from
his lunch break. He is a little juiced and has a bag under his
arm. He climbs on board and says "Kid, you wanna run 'em
back?"
"Sure, no problem."
He proceeds to begin attacking what was in his bag, a six pack of
cheap beer. He tells me "Since you drank all of my ginger
ale, I needed something cold to drink. And since Cuff Links
doesn't sell ginger ale, I had to get this. He tore through that
six pack like a chain saw carving through butter.
By the time we got back to Yard Center, he had passed out. We
yarded the train and went back up to the roundhouse to put
the power away. I attempted to wake him up including
throwing water on him. He just mumbled incoherently and
closed his eyes again. So I left him there and went back into
the office to tie up and went home.
The next afternoon, he comes to work and jumps all over me for
not waking him up when we got in. I told him that I had
attempted for several minutes and that he wasn't budging. I
even mentioned throwing water on him. He commented that
this explains how he got wet. He didn't know what had
happened, but that when he awoke, his shirt was all wet. He
went on to say that he was rudely awakened when the
Hostler got on the power to pull it down for servicing. He
said all of a sudden the light in the cab went on and both he
and the Hostler screamed when they saw each other as
neither was expecting to see anybody up there. He
managed to find his way off the engine and went home.
While with the South Shore, I caught a job as the rear Brakeman
on a freight assignment. This evening, we were going to
deliver a cut of cars to the B&O at Miller. As the rear Brakey,
it was my job to drop off the caboose, climb down the
embankment, line the switches at the east end of the
interchange yard, and then protect the shove into the yard.
There was a junk yard right next to the east end of the
interchange yard with several large and obviously, unhappy
dogs protecting the grounds. They used to always yell their
heads off at me while I was down there. They would also dig
at the bottom of the fence there as if trying to get out to
come after me.
On this particular evening, it was no exception. I'm standing down
there awaiting the cut and the dogs are yelling like mad.
Then, they stopped. A moment later, I hear the deep panting
of a dog charging. I turn and look to see one of them has
successfully dig his way under the fence, escaped from his
confines and is making the mad dash towards me. From the
look of his charge, I don't believe he was looking to play or
get love either. I had nowhere to run to and no cars to climb
as the cut had not reached me yet. So I quickly grabbed a
fussee out of my pocket and attempted to light it. For once, it
lit on the first try. As it fired up, the dog reached me with its
mouth wide open. I just shoved the lit fussee in the dog's
face. He let out a blood curdling scream and turn and ran
back towards the junkyard.
Ever since that day, I always tell new hires to always carry a fussee
or two with them at all times. You just never know what kind
of "things may go bump in the night."
And so it goes.
Tuch
I got a SECOND letter from NYCT calling me down to 1250 Broadway on February 16th to go through the pre-interview process for the C/R position. I went through this on December 12th, 2000, at which time (I thought) I declined the position and they told me that my name was off the list and to put it back I would have to go to Centre Street etc. Now I get the same letter - I find this kind of unusual. I am thinking of going down there again, going through the whole motions (the medical, the drug test etc ) to see what happens. I wonder what caused this to happen...
wayne
Question to Wayne. Does the letter mention anything about a $51 money order for a fingerprint test?
Is this S.O.P. for transit? And how come they've never called me in for this yet? And exactly what do they consider disqualifying? Several different inquiring minds want to know. Peace :>
Well the TA's standard procedure is this:
Your first visit is a full day physical and a pee test as you are fully aware.
You will receive a letter about four days before the appointment to show up at 8 AM at 1250 Bway for a second time. This time you will be required to bring a $51 money order (waived for those on public assistance) and 15 cents. You will take another pee test (that's the reason for the short notice). Also the money order is for a fingerprint test. After all this you will immediately take a state oath and you will be hired on the spot. The cost to take the oath is 15 cents. Everyone, even the mayor when he's sworn in has to pay it.
That's it.
After all this you will immediately take a state oath and you will be hired on the spot. The cost to take the oath is 15 cents. Everyone, even the mayor when he's sworn in has to pay it.
Undoubtedly, the costs associated with processing the 15-cent payments exceed the revenues generated.
Hey thanks "Z", you are in danger of becoming a nice, liked guy, and if your'e not very careful you could be in danger of becoming a gentlemen(!) Thanx a million for the timely info, and again all of it in antique NYCTA subway tokens. Peace and free love for all, Thomas the Subway R-16/17 Engine Traction Motor. :>
P.S.: if one does not have the whole fifteen cents, will they spot you or simply do a payroll deduction? (*wink*)
P.P.S. Oh, and is your real surname "Zimmerman" by any chance, and is 179 your CR or TO badge number? Do tell, perhaps you know my friends Matchbox 20 and Blink 182. "Peace Out"
>>>Hey thanks "Z", you are in danger of becoming a nice, liked guy, and if your'e not very careful you could be in danger of becoming a gentlemen(!)<<<
OH LORD NO!! I've got a reputation to uphold here!! That's what happens when you let down your "prick-age".
As far as the old tokens go, I accept all forms of payment, even if I'm not entitled to it!
Also from what I've heard they've discontinued the 15 cent deduction from one's net worth. And no I'm not Zimmerman, but keep trying, there aren't too many Z's driving trains out there! Finally 179 is the second closest terminal to my house. zmanparsonsandarcher doesn't have the same ring to it eh?
LMAO!!!-- Thomas :< :I :>
P.S. "All forms of payment? does this include food stamps and personal IOUs?"
Well the IOU's I'm not too crazy about. But the food stamps are most certainly welcome. I have a friend who has a friend who has a friend who has a friend who's second cousin buys them for 50% of 50% off half the face value.
lol
Howza bout some confederate money, and former USSR ruble notes? We'll throw in some pre-devaluation Mexican Pesos, also. . .Thomas:>
Normal rules you refuse employment when called by an agency you go to the bottom of the but have to notify Center St. that you that you still want to be called. But since this list is just for one agency I don't know if they have different rules. Only HHC has their OWN TEST and LIST for every city title. Maybe the TA follows the HHC rules, I don't know.
I believe the letter is the same (or close) to what I got the first time around. I will look at it more closely when I get home.
wayne
My personal experience: I was called to 1250 Broadway on January 11th. I was done for the day at 11:30 AM (urine test done). I was called back on the 17th: that was an all-day stay, even though I was medically certified fit for duty by 11 AM. I did not take another urine test. The fingerprint fee was $50. I was sworn in as a T/O that day (I did not have to pay 15 cents to take the oath).
Tony Reid
Vice Chairman
New York Division, Electric Railroaders' Association
Maybe they had you down twice. :-)
Tonight on my way home from schoolcar, at the Pacific street staion
going southbound On the express track there was a N train of slants,
and on the Local track an N train of 68's both saying 36 st. next express stops . I found that very weird .
Boy Sea Beach Fred would have loved that, because he is Weird.
Bob's right, I'm kind of weird. Would have loved to have been there directing traffic. I would have said: Express Sea Beach, go right ahead and may the wind be at your back. To the local I would have said, get the hell out of here and take Brighton Beach Bob with you. Poor Bob, he has to find a new train now that his D is a non Brooklyn train. The eyes overflow with sadness.
I wonder which train is taking place of the D train which apparently is no longer a Brooklyn train at the moment?
BMTJeff
Jeff: Who cares?
"Boy Sea Beach Fred would have loved that, because he is Weird."
HAR HAR HAR DE HAR HAR !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
That is weird that both a local and express train said the 36th St. was the next express stop.
BMTJeff
I wonder which train won.:-)
There was a post a while back about two A trains which went neck-and-neck down 8th Ave. You had to be there.
I wonder which got to 36th first...
Probably the R
That's worth a rim shot.
"I wonder which got to 36th first... "
Most likely the R-40 slants on the express tracks. The R-68's on the local track has to slow down a bit when bypassing local stations. This ain't the good ole daze !!
Bill "Newkirk"
This evening on my way home from some shopping and dinner in Streeterville, I was waiting for the northbound Red Line at Clark/Division.
Seeing a lot of trash, and possibly a rat or two, down on the track bed is nothing particularly unusual for me. This time, however, one of the items down there was a pair of blue jeans.
Upon seeing a pair of pants down on the track bed, one immediately begins to wonder exactly how they got down there. (The area around Clark/Division is a very weird part of town, so I guess nothing would really surprise me.)
This leads me to a question I thought I'd throw against the wall and see if it sticks: What are the most bizzare items you have seen on the track bed at a subway station, and what do you suppose is the story about how said items ended up down there?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Umm, I saw a drunk guy laying between the tracks on the BSS around 4:50pm one weekday afternoon. People were screaming at him to get up because a train was coming. He finally got up and cursed at everyone saying he just went down there to get his hat. Which he had still forgotten; it was laying on the third rail just before the train pulled up.
That would have to be the water cooler that suddenly appeared on M Track at 103/ Bway in the middle of the AM rush hour about two and a half years ago. the thing was called in as a bomb, service was disrupted for an hour or so. I still can't figure how it got there.
Betcha someone dropped it on TOP of a train before it went into the tunnel north of 116th....and it finally worked its way between two cars and down to the rails by the time it got to 103rd.
I once saw someone, probably a vagrant, crossing the tracks on foot on the uptown Lexington IRT between Spring and Bleecker. I was standing at the railfan window of a 4 redbird, and we were really moving, about 35-40 miles per hour. The headlights suddenly picked up this guy moving slowly across the uptown track. The motorman hit the brakes and honked the horn, but that guy would have been toast for sure if he hadn't jumped out of the way. Really scary!!
What was the car number? So we can find the imprint of your face on the window :)
Back in the late 70's I saw an "MTA" rat on the track bed. This rat was painted platinum mist with a horizontal blue stripe on his body.
I then broke into my best Cagney impression.........YOOOO DIRTY RAT !!!
The rat was impressed but the people on the platform weren't. I guess you can't impress psychos and subway passengers, unless they're one in the same !
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, have you been hanging out with heypaul lately???
BMTman
>>>This rat was painted platinum mist with a horizontal blue stripe on his body.<<<
Damn, even the rats had graffiti.
Not on the subway, but the LIRR Atlantic branch between Jamaica and Locust Manor has about 5 or 6 dead dogs laying between the rails, they were evenly spaced at about 600' (estimation). This was as of today, 2-8-1.
Exactly how would I go about posting a picture within a message like some of you here have done? I actually have a funny transit photo that I'd like to post.
Thanx.
You type in the message body:
(img src=" - type URL of photo here - ")
The ('s and )'s are <'s and >'s.
I'm confused. I just have a photo, it's not on any website. I know that I can scan on an e-mail, will I be able to do the same with these posts?
There's no provision here to "attach" an image and it would REALLY eat up bandwidth and server space here ... the trick they mentioned is the only way to do it unfortunately - when I post pictures (I *have* that picture I mentioned yesterday and am going to scan it in later and put it up) I do so through my personal account at wizvax.net and refer to it here using that img= set of tags. It's the only way that works owing to the generosity of Dave in allowing HTML tags to be buried in the text when we post here (THANKS, DAVE!) ...
But you have to refer to the picture already posted somewhere else on the net before you can make any graphics show up in the message here. Find a site that will let you upload the pictures you want to (using FTP) and then you can link to them in the body of your message here. (Be SURE to use the "preview" feature to make sure you get the tags and layout correct before you post - you'll want to use something like img=http://whereveritis ALIGN=LEFT or ALIGN=RIGHT to place the image so you can float the text around it newspaper style like I and others have done ... it's pretty easy once you have some web site out there to actually store the images on, then you refer to them here. Voila!
&
<>
<
The board no longer allows you to use escape sequences to display the < and > symbols.
It needs to be stored on a webserver. Anyone who has their own website could save it there, and then you would need only provide the web address in your post. I.e. < img src="http://www.mywebsite.com/myaccountname/mypicture.jpg"> I would volunteer, but I didn't pay my webhosting bill recently... There are also free sites where you can upload pictures to share them, such as those used on ebay (I think some are honesty.com, auctionimages.com, or something like that.) You could also set up your own webpage at AOL or geocities, etc. They walk you through a very easy process, and since the webpage isn't important to you, all you have to do is upload your photos, then remember their web addresses.
Due to an overwhelming amount of homework, and a History test that's worth 50% of my grade, I will not be posting on Subtalk in the near future. Actually probably not til like Friday or Saturday. But I trust that the "battle of the modes" thread will go on in lieu of my holy presence.
Sincerely,
Spunky of Light Rail Fame
P.S. MONORAIL KICKS @$$
P.P.S. Look what SEATTLE is getting. Jealous?
No.
Heard on the WKJY-FM (98.3) news at 6:30 AM that an E train conductor was arrested for exposing himself to a passenger while on duty.
The conductor was a resident of Hempstead, that is why it was noted on a Nassau county radio station.
Anyone got details ?????
If we can't get a 2nd Avenue subway built and the light rail/trolley proposals will never see the light of day, how about realigning the traffic lanes on 2nd Avenue so that buses will have dedicated lanes where only they can run? I suggest that the two innermost lanes be dedicated for buses, one for uptown and one for downtown. They could be separated from the other lanes by concrete dividers or such. Standing room for passengers could be also provided.
Okay, this would create traffic problems on 2nd Avenue, but something has to be done about east side access. Using the buses the way they are now doesn't work. It recently took over an hour to get from East 116th Street to 42nd Street on a downtown 2nd Avenue bus!
Could this work?
It is done in Brazil - buses have dedicated lanes with fare-gated bus stations on the boulevards. See Scientific American from a couple of years ago for the article. It's not nearly as good as a subway, but if we're really convinced the subway won't happen (I'm not convinced) then it could be an alternative(?????)
In the southern part of Sao Paulo, there is a bus company, EMTU, that operates tolleybuses on a dedicated ROW in the medians of boulvards. They have stops every two or three blocks and (I think) 6 terminals along the routes. The whole system is shaped like a "Y" and routes can begin and end at any of the terminals (the routes are clearly marked on buses). The stops aren't fare gated, but the buses have turnstiles, which is pretty cool. All the buses have three doors, the back two are exits and the front is entry.
how about realigning the traffic lanes on 2nd Avenue so that buses will have dedicated lanes where only they can run?
There already is a bus-only lane on 2nd Ave.
I suggest that the two innermost lanes be dedicated for buses, one for uptown and one for downtown.
2nd Ave is a one-way street. It would be difficult to make it 2-way (all the traffic lights would have to be replaced).
(how about realigning the traffic lanes on 2nd Avenue so that buses will have dedicated lanes where only they can run?)
(There already is a bus-only lane on 2nd Ave. )
Correction, there is a lane for buses and people who believe that rules apply to the inferior but not to them. There are a lot of those around here.
In any event, the bus lane won't solve the problem of intesections. In fact, other vehicles have to turn across the bus lane.
You want a more radical idea? How about some kind of restrictions
to limit the number of cabs and limos?
That's not very radical. You want radical, restrict private cars.
Doesn't Madison Ave already have the 2 rightmost lanes dedicated to buses during weekday rush hours?
--Mark
Yes, and it works fairly well except for the congestion around 57th St. While 2nd already has a bus-only lane (as do other avenues), one such lane alone won't cut it -- there's too much intyerference from double-parkers, right-turners, etc. The 2 Madison lanes work, but two lanes really cause tie-ups for the other traffic.
Shouldn't this thread be on BusTalk?
As you mention, there are a lot of options for 2nd Avenue. Dedicated bus lanes, however, would be one of the least effective (yet cheapest!) for reducing both forms of congestion that the 2nd Avenue subway intedns to target: 1) east side motor traffic and 2) crowding on the lexington avenue IRT.
A subway only adds ROW. When you start dedicating lanes, you trade one form of ROW for another. Dedicated bus lanes would certainly help crowding on the East side IRT to some degree. However, you'd be compressing the remaining percentage of 2nd Avenue vehicle traffic not alleviated by the busses into two fewer lanes. If you ride the bus down 2nd Ave, then you know what happens to vehicle traffic by the high-rise construction condo between East 91&92 (where two lanes are reserved for construction staging).
Also, you will want to put the dedicated lanes on the outside. You never want to put a barrier between unidirectional vehicle traffic. Just think of all the people in the right lanes who realize they need to make a left, and start cutting in front of the bus lanes.
I'm not sure, but I think divided unidirectional traffic flow is a non-standard condition anyways. You'd have to check the appropriate Manual of Practice. Putting the dedicated lanes on the outside also makes signage easier, and can allow the busses to loop around a block much easier.
I don't believe that subways are always the only answer, but I feel that additional ROW is a better solution than making a tradeoff. It might be more expensive, but I think it is also far more likely to solve both problems.
Matt-2av
Very thoughtful analysis.
Does anyone have any photos of the abandoned underground Woodhaven station on the LIRR Atlantic Line? Have any tours ever been conducted at this station? It seems like its still in very good shape.
Thanks.
in returning from the city yesterday from an adventure, i took the lex back into brooklyn, curious to see if the r142a's had returned from the latest fine tuning...
on several occasions on the way out of manhattan, i observed redbirds providing service on all 4 tracks... i must admit that i've never been into the redbirds, but it brought back pleasant memories of the r9's coming and going all over the place on the ind...
for those who seem distressed by some people's amusement
here over the difficulties of the r142's, i wonder if
maybe they should have tested the r110's for a couple of more years, before ordering the 142's
according to the 10 am news on wnyc am, the newark subway extension to bloomfield will be tested today, and is expected to be in operation this summer...
Hooray for Newark!
Great! I've always liked the Newark City Subway. For those of us not terribly familiar with north Jersey, which direction is that? Does that bring it closer to the Hudson-Bergen light rail line? Aren't there plans to connect the two in some far off eschatological time?
Mark
North, no, and no...
Both lines will have the same equipment, but they'll need a sky hook to get the Newark fleet to the HBLR for O/H.
Mr t__:^)
Or they could get a diesel loco to haul them down the Boonton line to the freight yards west of Hoboken, where, IIRC, there is a connection to the freight line to Bayonne. If there is no longer a direct connection between the HBLR tracks and the freight tracks in Jersey City or Bayoone, it wouldn't take much to pick a spot where they share ROW, put a gate in the fence, and install a couple of track switches.
Obviously, not a revenue route.
Are they still using the PCC cars or have they already switched to the new ones yet???
PCC's still. Not for too much longer though.
And still no subway service on weekends, only the evil #347 bus.
When the display style is "Compressed," the threads show up, and the number of responses is always "1," no matter how many responses there are.
today's times reported the results of the straphanger's ratings of car cleanliness... the q line, which is my line of choice, had the lowest ranking in the survey... only 18% of the q train cars surveyed were rated clean... i feel that this is conscious attempt of the straphangers to smear me and the subway line that i ride... while i must admit that my own measure of my overall personal cleanliness hovers around 8%, i feel it is in very bad taste to single me out... i hope to bathe more frequently, once the weather warms up and it will no longer be necessary for me to dress in so many layers of clothing...
heypaul smear
heypaul smear
Is the reason the M is so clean is the fact it hardly ever comes?
Exactky! The M stations aren't infested with trains!
;-D Andrew
Exactly! The M stations aren't infested with trains!
;-D Andrew
..not to mention it irks of inconsideration
by the Straphangers Committee to choose
"this time of year"-- of all 12 months--
to do their researching.. just when the
trains are COMMON SENSEDLY bound to be
marred with snow boot tracings and other
"sludge" forms.. after all.. we DID just
get done with two bouts against Al (SNOW)..
...want neatness?--dare ye to try in July..
My Sympathies heypaul...
look who got maimed with the
"gritty & dirty" title over on the
West...
C'Mon ... any train that crawls across the 225 bridge like some thief slithering through the night DESERVES it. Heh. Hey, don't shoot, I lived at 225 W 230th once in my life - guess what train my homey was? Why, none other than the mighty ... (drum roll, please) ...
(image position shifted to obtain new copyright)
also in today's times is an article on joe franklin... aside from having an office more disorganized than my own personal living space, joe franklin represents my ultimate dream in obtaining media exposure... i've been having trouble getting him to commit to a time when i can come on his radio program and made a fool out of myself...
for more about joe, the restauranteur see
gracious midtown eatery host
heypaul, I heard that Howard Stern wanted you to do a guest spot next week.
Any chance you'll do a segment???
BMTman
Uh oh ... sounds like it's rubber french maid costume week ...
"heypaul, I heard that Howard Stern wanted you to do a guest spot next week.
Any chance you'll do a segment???"
doug... there's no chance in hell, i'd go on howard stern...
speaking of hell, i've long felt that howard stern's just punishment along with his faithful companion robin, as well as his devoted production crew, and his loyal listeners, would be to have to spend all eternity together doing their program... they would have to keep up their whole shtick, in full awareness of how they have all degraded their own lives and everyone around them...
I was talking to a Motorman who goes to my Church. I asked him what he is picking for the next pick. He currently runs the R. He said "If it is nice enough, I'll pick a V run". Question, how does the MTA plan on having Motormen pick the V when the next pick starts in april and ends in october?. How will the TA choose? What will happen when the V and W hit in the summer?
The selection only begins Mar 5 so the pick can't go into effect until at least May as it takes two months for all the motormen to go through the process plus 5 days in the contract before the start date. Also the V is not exactly a done deal. Mr. R46 who is reviewing the books for the union told me they removed it from the work programs. The proposed work programs do not give enough relay time at Continental Avenue for relays and the E line's work programs may be easier to swallow in cab time. We will see March 5 what will happen with this V line.
In my days if we had a service change between picks those that were on a line would get a line pick. Whether this would have applied to a major change such as this I couldn't say. If it were simply a matter of the B/6th Ave becoming a Broadway route I'm sure a line pick would do. But there are other changes involved here.
It isn't a matter of a line pick in this case. I'm told the residents of Forest Hills complained of the shortlined G route that will not go to Continental for the new pick. The TA simply replaced the G with the new V because they can't handle 5 lines north of Roosevelt Av. The G was scheduled to be cut back permanantly to Court Square, therefore explaining why R68 cars would have been utilized there. For now, no V until the G is rescheduled to accomodate stops North of LIC.
Good. Personally I think the many regular people along the G should have a voice and the thru service. The 63rd st. tunnel in my book still has NOT solved the problem of Queens overcrowding...but it did get a 4th Manhattan service on QBlvd. An expensive Band-aid that has been 30 years in the making.
Pre- planning is such a great idea!
Lets learn from history, and not repeat the mistakes of the past. Lets learn from history and repeat the successes of the past.
In time, this chaotic situation of the coming Manhattan Bridge switch and 63rd Street tunnel opening will be behind us.
The Queens Blvd. lines may grow in usage to a point where both local and express service will reach their saturation points. Thirty trains per hour. The consists will be full 10 60ft. or 8 75ft. car sets.
The riding public and their elected representitives will demand more!
Okay, give them what they want.
We could make the trains longer. 660ft. trains once proudly carried the "E" and "F" banner high. That was when the R/9s could be multipled into 11 car consists.
Now the marrige vows prevent this. So how do we change this?
You mirror life! Alternate life styles. Gene trans-plants and splicing.
In the future as the fabled R/143s roll in and the R/40s and R/42s get "altered or fixed" instead of rolling out. Some become singles, compatible with R/68s and others with R/46s and still more with R/44s.
Some keep there marriage vows , but chnage their Creed. Some to that of the R/68s, some to the R/46s belief and others to the R/44 credo.
Now we can all get along together! (Where have I heard that before?)
Congregations of 360ft., 300ft, 270ft, 210ft , all beleiving in the supreme OPTO can serve the needs of their devotees.
75+75+60+75+75 or 75+75+75+75 or 75+60+60+75 or 75+60+75.
Similarly the larger denominations can grow to 615ft, 630ft, 645ft, and 660ft.
Isn't diversity beautiful in the eye of the beholder? All of this without massive construction and delays and GOs .
Esthetics is the driving force for the choices here . To combine as similar car types as possible. Systems would have to be changed or modified.
The 10%,7.5% , 5% and 2.5% are ther for the taking . Some lines will only allow a little improvement.
Lets take whats offered. If this is requires to much from the local talent, I,m sure the vendors of the last G.O.H. would aim to please.
Picture a Slant R/40 at each end of seven 75fters. What a sight seeing it haul across Jamaica Bay!
Any thoughts out there?
avid
"Any thoughts out there?"
avid... you've been around subtalk long enough to know the answer to that question...
i'm afraid that the innovative and outtovative spirit is in short supply here... we rely on you to dream of a future...
avid... could you supply some pictures of what a consist might look like with slants on either end of 7 75 footers...
and bravo on your innovative idea for seating in the cars...
I was wondering what MP54's were better interms of preformance. The AC powered MP54's used by the PRR or the DC powered MP54's used by the LIAR. Also were the DC MP54's used by the PRSL any different than the DC MP54's used my the LIAR?
Check your E-Mail
avid
Having ridden both roads' MP54's, I'd say the PRR ones were the more powerful. They seemed to run with more unpowered trailers in a train and still had the get-up-and-go that LIRR cars had. I think PRR used a 1:1 power:trailer ratio while LIRR was 8:2 The thing I liked about PRR's was that if you wanted to sit up in the front car, you didn't always have to listen to the coffee-grinder traction motors as in many cases, an unmotorized trailer would be the lead car. (Same on NH's old Osgood-Bradley cars.) LIRR's control cars were all motorized except for #1677, the "Rockaway" club car which was a control motor (class CT54c).
Never had any experience with PRSL though.
The last batch of LIRR MP54's you might remember (the 1100's) went back to clerestory roofs, but had 12 inch collision posts like the immediately preceding arch roof cars (unique to the LIRR), while ALL other clerestory roof P54 and MP54 for the LIRR, PRR, PRSL, and N&W had 7 inch collision posts. The reason they went back to clerestory was that Altoona was building a concurrent order for PRSL. PRSL cars were also customized with trolley poles and accessories like exposed number boards, and manual doors.
But the MP54A1c cars (1135-1179, some later 4135-4179) on LIRR were NOT built by Altoona. All roster info I have seen shows them to be built by American Car & Foundry....and I remember riding in them, and theyhad AC&F builder plates in the ones that were NOT rebuilt int he 1950's by LIRR.
My roster, published by the LIST Chapter NRHS in 1971, says PRR. Mar-Apr issue of Electriclines says PRR-Altoona. Maybe ACF set up shop there.
My roster, published by the LIST Chapter NRHS in 1971, says PRR. Mar-Apr 1991 issue of Electriclines says PRR-Altoona. Maybe ACF set up shop there.
A writeup in the Albany Times Union indicates that NTSB is homing in on the cause and it's not looking good for the engineer.
http://www.timesunion.com/lede/wednesday/0207syrtrainlede.asp
How forgiving is Amtrak when it comes to human error? If indeed it's found that the engineer went past a signa, will be he given a second chance or will he be, er, re-engineered?
Depending on seniority, he might be allowed to place the stools on the platform when a train comes in ... otherwise, it's the street. Hitting signals anywhere is not generally an acceptable thing. I'll be keeping an eye on it since I know most everybody on the Empire Corridor either personally or in groups of folks I've sat and shot the shirt with ... prior to the changes in federal rules, when I'd go somewhere I'd go by cab instead of being herded with the geese. Now I'm just another honker ...
Home Signals display an asepct called "Fire You Ass Red". If an engineer goes past a red home signal he will usually be fired and I believe that the FRA will de-certify him to be an engineer. Poor/Zero visibility are not usually accepted as excuces although phantom aspects are if you can prove it. They are also let off if there is a signaling failure or the signal is dropped on them (ie the Home signal is changed from not stop to stop w/o any warning.). Also, engineers will also be fired and loose their certifacation if they fail to abide by the rules of restricted speed.
I know a guy that got off on that on Conrail - he blew past a yellow and started shutting down in anticipation when he rounded a curve, had to drop stick and pray. He stopped with inches to spare. As it turns out, water had intruded into the lens of the signal he blew and though it was red, the water and rust inside the lens made it look whiz yellow at the right time in the afternoon. The NTSB boys were amazed as well when they checked it out for themselves. He got off, though he was watched for a year.
I've heard that Conrail in Pennsylvania had a number of signals out there that had similar problems. They were required to repair and reseal the lenses to keep water out of them as a result.
This is what caused the CP-Terra collission on the Harrisburg Line back in 1997. It made Red/red look like Yellow/Green.
My buddy was a regular on the SE-EL /EL-SE run between Selkirk and Elkhart and it happened somewhere out in Indiana. I think it was in '96 though it could have been early '97. I know the signalling is different on the former Pennsy - he hit an automatic rather than a homeball. Same deal though - not good to have bad seals on the lenses when they face the sun. :)
This guy blew through a distant signal that had the standard NYC style signals (or possibly US&S H-8's). Yes it is harder to get a phantom aspect on a PRR PL signal, but its also hard to see any aspect.
LETS HEAR IT FOR CAB SIGNALS
A cab signal can be dropped on ya, you still got to but the train in the hole.
perfection is not achieved. but any reasonable step along the road. sort of like 'limit' functions.
All the more reason that 3-aspect position is best. There's built in redundancy and confusion about color is a non-issue.
Isn't that partly why the PRR has Position lights? It's actually quite a good system*
*Though color position is probbably better for wayside signals.
Ok, here's an interesting one - why are train signals so gosh darn complicated and dim, and traffic lights are cheap, simple, and *bright*? I can never really figure out why railroads don't just use (modified somewhat to detect dead bulbs, etc) traffic lights...
Traffic lights are meant to be seen at most maybe 1000 ft away.
On the high iron you may need to see a signal aspect a mile or more
away. They look pretty dim when you are standing on the ground,
but the engineer isn't down there (we hope).
As for complexity, part of the problem is the diversity of signal
aspect systems out there which is based on RR history. The other
part is the need to have safety and good track capacity utilization.
You need a lot more than 3 aspects. Of course, with modern cab
signal systems giving 7+ codes all of this wayside complexity
is not needed.
Traffic lights are meant to be seen at most maybe 1000 ft away.
On the high iron you may need to see a signal aspect a mile or more
away. They look pretty dim when you are standing on the ground,
but the engineer isn't down there (we hope).
You are exactly right. A 15 watt bulb in a US&S H-8 searchlight can be seen 2 miles distant if your w/in the arc of its focus. I have always been impressed by the see-ability of RR signals even in daylight. Howeven, then PRR Amber PL signals get dirty they can be tough to see in the daytime, but they really glow at night.
Of course, with modern cab signal systems giving 7+ codes all of this wayside complexity is not needed.
Block signals only give 3-4 aspects and distants typically only give 4-6. The complexity comes at interlockings where the engineer must know block occupancy, speed through the interlocking and what to do at the next interlocking signal if any. The current 4 speed cab signal system has worked very well. I thought that ACELA used a 6 speed system, but with lets say 7 I feel there is a need for lower speed aspects, not super speed aspects. Idealy a cab signal could show RESTRICTING (no code, 20 mph, but Restricting rules apply), SLOW (15 mph, block is guarenteed clear), MEDIUM (30 mph), LIMITED (45 mph), LIMITED 60 (for use with Approach Limited and Advance Approach and 60mph turnouts), CLEAR (80 mph), SUPER CLEAR (3 block protection, since any train can stop w/in 3-6 miles SUPER CLEAR would mean any 80+ Linespeed.
Was this area cab signaled?
No, the Chicago Line is not Cab Signaled. The NYC used to have an inductive ATS, but that was ripped out in the 70's.
It sounds incorrect that the engineer had been running passenger trains for "15 years" and was "unfamiliar" with the F40. I only drive may parents car about twice a year, but I remember where the wipers are....
Dave
That struck me as odd to, especially considering that all of the "40's" are pretty much the same as far as the stand goes. For anyone interested in the cab of an F-40, I posted a link to a site where you can read the actual "operators manual" a few days ago - it's here:
http://gelwood.railfan.net/manual/f40-manual.html
... if anyone wants to have a look at the control stand. Knowing how it is though, the "fumbling with train orders" bit sounds very possible. The switch control operation out there is actually done here, south of Albany, probably Selkirk tower too. Originally the scuttlebutt was that the freight had been held to allow the Amtrak train to run around it and the train ended up behind the freight, something nobody had planned on.
But the guy ran that specific territory between there and ALB so there has to be some question why he wouldn't have EXPECTED there to be a possible setout in the vicinity since he was on the track with the yard turnout whether the yellow was flashing (30MPH) or NOT flashing (15). Even if y our color perception is shot, you shouldn't have much difficulty with flashing or not flashing unless you're in the midst of a stroke or a seriously high quality marijuana roach ... I still don't know who it was or if I know the guy and the whole story is a bit unsettling personally since the Route of the pointless arrow guys are a pretty small community around here, and straight arrows all.
The Blood Sugar level in the Engineer was found to be quite high. This is a possible indicator of Diabetes, one of the side effects of this condition is blurred/degraded vision. Another test, for Hemoglobin a1c (Hba1c) will give a 3 month snapshot of his average blood glucose over the past 4 months>
A high glucose level will make your vision blurred, and I should know, because not only am I a doctor, but I am also diabetic. That engineer might get off if his diabetes went out of control that day.
The Blood Sugar level in the Engineer was found to be quite high. This is a possible indicator of Diabetes, one of the side effects of this condition is blurred/degraded vision. Another test, for Hemoglobin a1c (Hba1c) will give a 3 month snapshot of his average blood glucose over the past 4 months. This test will determine if he is diabetic.
A high glucose level will make your vision blurred, and I know this because not only am I a doctor, but I am also diabetic. That engineer might get off if it is found that his diabetes was out of control. He might have found out that he has the disease for the first time in his life - many of the people I run into with it DID NOT KNOW that they had it. Guys, the older you get, expect something like this to sneak up on you.
I'll second that. In fact, there are a number of symptoms that you can get, some of which you blow off because you attribute them to other innocent causes. I've seen a lot of people in the ER whose first real cry for help was when they were wheeled in comatose by paramedics with blood sugars in the four digits.
Glucose>1,000 mg/dl !?!?!? That guy's blood was sweeter than Karo Syrup Do they live?
It varies from person to person - some people just feel out of sorts, while others are in a coma with a fruity odor on their breath and breathing very heavily. Medical care has to be tailor made to the individual - no two people are alike, and what works for one might kill another. That engineer would do well to get a complete checkup - diabetes is not a forgiving illness. Let it go wild and you can go blind, lose a leg or a foot, wind up on a dialysis machine, get a heart attack, or sroke, or die relatively young. Control it, and you can live a reasonably good life. Eventually it does damage, but that damage is minmized if you control it. Pills do not work for everybody, and insulin can be difficult to take with you - needs refrigeration, clean needles, problem of how to dispose of used needles, that sort of thing. Folks, now do you see what one man's illness can cause? I bet he did not have a clue, except maybe he felt a little tired and thirsty lately.
My father-in-law has diabetes, and has ben treating it with very tight control measures (at least five shots a day, now on a pump) frequent monitoring and close attention to diet. He's 72. Result: No vision problems, no kidney problems, no loss of feeling in extremities, no nothing. And he has been able to participate in whatever life activities he wants (except when he's feeling lazy, and, according to Harrison's Internal Medicine textbook, laziness is not caused by diabetes. Too bad, because then we'd know how to treat laziness...)
If he has it, your wife had better watch herself ery carefully. It sneaks up on you,especially in your mid forties, so beware.
>>>many of the people I run into with it DID NOT KNOW that they had it.
I agree with you absolutely. Many physicians I know estimate that a typical (Type II since you are a doc:)) diabetic lives 8-10 years with the disease before they are diagnosed.
-cordially,
turnstiles
But the guy ran that specific territory between there and ALB
Don't you mean between there [CP-291] and LAB?
Actually, it's between CP-291 and CP-143 - Amtrak calls the stop "Renssala" or "Rensselaer/Albany" since it's actually across the river from city of Albany. But for all intents and purposes, it's called ALB locally ... you can check the maps (though they're pretty poorly done in my opinion with breaks in lines and many lines missing at:
http://204.210.129.48/rochesterrailf/images/Maps/!CSX_ROUTE/ChicagoLine173Rennselaer.jpg ... this at least shows the mileposts around here. I also find it amusing how it appears as though Selkirk doesn't have any through trackage but what the hey. :)
That's kind of a useful map. Is it from a book?
Most of the maps on the Rochester railfan site are original copies of actual "company maps" as was the CSX map I pointed you to. You can examine other maps on their page at http://204.210.129.48/rochesterrailf/maps.htm
Look
http://www.lexcie.zetnet.co.uk/snowytrain.htm
Have you seen the four arrows for Amtrak California?
"One step forward, three steps back"
Maybe he's run electrics (i.e. AEM7's) all his career and the control stands ARE definitely different.
Or maybe it was one of those rebuilt F40's in the Northeast Direct scheme -- didn't they have the desktop controls installed in place of the normal F40 type controls????
Blurry picture in the paper looked like 415. Was that one of the newer ones from GO Transit ? Maybe they're different.
It was 414
I took a hike over to the Van W. yesterday to see if anything had changed since the last time I looked at the Airtrain construction.
Last I looked (60-90 days ago, IIRC), the pillars were almost all in place, and the superstructure was in place just north of the belt.
Now, the pillars are all in place, and the superstructure is in place up to Rockaway Blvd.
There has been a lot of activity in the LIRR's Johnson Yard (some piledriving had to be finished, etc.) PA staff tell me that MTA contracts for the new $75 million Howard Beach A train rebuild and Jamaica Station rebuild will happen soon.
Is anyone interested in having a Rail Fan Trip here in DC for the WAMTA, either a Saturday or Sunday in the Spring, and who would come?
I might come.
Possible itinerary, dates?
I've done the whole system but haven't gone to Greenbelt, Addison Road, New Carrolton, or Glenmont in awhile.
Mr. GMOAGH,
Were you able to receive my pictures ok?
No.
Send them to my AOL e-mail address. I sent it to you.
I'd definitely consider going. I finally went to the Glenmont station a couple of weeks ago when I had to run an errand up in Wheaton, finsihing the whole system for me. I did it purposely so that I could also ride the new portion of the C8 between Glenmont and White Flint. Whatever brain has the C8 take Nicholson to 355 and then a have it make a right on Marinelli was high on something. They should have it go across 355,make a right on Executive, a right on Marinelli and a left into the station. We were at Nicholson and 355 forever trying to get a break to get into the left lane.
How about the 2nd Saturday in April. I am still in the middle of unpacking, and have to go back to hawaii the End of March to bring my family over
Is that Passover?
I think the Jewish population on this board is high enough to effect the turnout.
I am not sure, but but I was thinking of Sat Apr 14, if that is okay with everyone. Maybe meet at Union Station for brunch, bathroom etc. One day pass $5.00.
You could also never leave fare control and pay 1.10 assuming you exit once every four hours. You could do the whole system in 8 hours for only 2.20 that way.
First Seder is Saturday, April 7th.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was aware it was a Saturday. So we are dealing with the eighth (last) day.
For those who observe for eight days, yes. (Reform only observes for seven - one case in which we are actually follow the Torah more literally than the other movements.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess it doesn't pose a problem for you then.
Do you plan on coming?
Unfortunately, I doubt that I will be able to do so... although my younger daughter (a first-year student at Georgetown Law) would be delighted to see me. I'll have to play it by ear.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would pretty much come. Just let me know what weekend! I haven't been in DC since I lived in Langley Park,MD back in 1996. Back then, the green line in PG County just opened and the red line only went up to Wheaton, the C2 and C4 went to operating on Sundays and the C8 turned into Route 26 for Ride-On. BTW, does Metro still turn trains around at White Flint, or was it Grosvenor, I don;t remember.
B61 Leonard
They still turn back at Grosvenor-Strathmore (yes, Grosvenor got hit by the renaming thing), once all the CAF cars enter service, they won't though (or at least that was the plan).
Sounds good to me. I'm definitely interested.
Wayne
After recently pouring over my copy of the 12 Historical Maps...Volume II, I read in the commentary for the Worlds Fair map that the abandoned LIRR Rockaway Branch is hikeable and that the track and pieces of the 3rd rail are weeded but visible. Can anyone tell me if that's still true? I know there was a recent fantrip hike, which I missed.
Incidentally, my #11 and #12 maps were each labeled the other. And I wish the Rand McNally maps were a tad bigger for better resolution (yes, I know they're actual-size, but the resolution suffers a bit in reprinted form). I was fascinated by the street names in Long Island City, some of which, according to the map, have gone through at least 2 names since they were laid out! For example, the now numbered "streets" (29th Street, 35th Street, etc.), used to have lettered names ("Academy," "Bartow") before they were avenues ("2nd Avenue," "6th Avenue"). Intriguing, Captain!
When can we expect Volume III? :o)
Take the photo tour of the abandoned Rockaway Branch at oldnyc.com.
Thanks. Enjoyed the photo tour. Hopefully, I can go on the hike next time it happens.
Also, have you checked with forgotten-ny.com or the webmaster thereof?
Re: street names
That's why 33rd, 40th, 46th (and others) used to be subtitled Rawson, Lowery, Bliss, etc.
Oldtimers still use these names rather than the numbers for the stations. This is also depicted on some of the diagrams shown in the "Tracks of New York" series books.
I've never seen the "Tracks of New York" series. Is it still in print?
Volume I was recently reprinted by the Electric Railroaders Association. Contact that organization for more information. It was being sold for $8, I think.
Volumes II and III have not been reprinted as far as I know. You might want to contact Ron's Books or Kevin T Farrell books to see if they have any copies of them. They're usually hard to get.
--Mark
It is hikable, but you must be VERY careful on the overpasses. There are no guardrails and the thick brush is tough to get around.
I haven't been through there in a while, but warped portions of the 3rd rail should still be visible from A trains going to and from Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park.
From Peter Dougherty's track maps, it appears that the northernmost track on the shuttle is connected to the West Side IRT, while the 2 southernmost tracks are connected to the Lex, but that there is no connection between the most northern track and the southern tracks. Is this true? If so, doesn't that create havoc with moving trains in and out of the shuttle?
That's what the arangement is.
They don't move the train in/out all that often.
Mr t__:^)
This is a legacy of the change from the original single IRT line (City Hall - Grand Central - Times Square - 96th Street) to the current "H" system.
It simply was easiest to continue the connection of track 4 on the shuttle to the same track on the West Side line (no grade crossings of other tracks), and to continue the connection of track 1 of the shuttle to the East Side.
The question is why track 3 on the shuttle is cross-connected to track 1, rather than to track 4.
To take your question one step farther, why wasn't track 3 cross-connected to track 1 IN ADDITION TO track 4?
Any possibility that this was the case before the big fire (1964?)?
Track layout did not change with the big fire.
The fire is an interesting story about "temporary" construction. When the shuttle was first created, the idea was to run to 2 and 3 tracks to Grand Central (through the pedestrian passage that now exists). That was not done because they recognized that three tracks were minimally adequate at rush hour, and two would not do.
In any event, they covered track 2 at Grand Central with a wooden platform . . . and that remained until it was incinerated in the fire.
The platform on track 1 is shorter AND most folks go towards the 1/9/2/3, i.e. track one is the wrong way.
Mr t__:^)
From Peter Dougherty's track maps, it appears that the northernmost track on the shuttle is connected to the West Side IRT, while the 2 southernmost tracks are connected to the Lex, but that there is no connection between the most northern track and the southern tracks. Is this true? If so, doesn't that create havoc with moving trains in and out of the shuttle?
Not necessarily. If they want to move a shuttle from the east side IRT to the west side, they can move the train down the Lex to Bowling Green, take the South Ferry switch (where the 5 turns around during off-peak hours), go back up the 7th Ave line and use the northernmost track.
I think only the southernmost track connects with the east side IRT directly, by the way.
The northbound track had a "deck" covering the track back the last time I was down there so they WOULD have to arrange for the deck to be lifted off the track to move a train through there from 7th Ave.
It's like a metal walkway that can be removed. Tracks 1 and 3 connect to the east side, and track 4 connects to the west side. Track 2 is abandoned, the platform for track 3 at Times Sq is the old track 2 trackway. Notice how wide the platform is at GCT between tracks 1 and 3. Since it was an express stop, they had a platform between tracks 1 and 2, so they had to fill in the trackway, making an extra wide platform. Too bad most other subway stations don't have platforms as wide as this, 'cuz you know they need 'em.
Yep ... I've been on the "ramp" ... but it's not something that's got a punch button or will move with two yanks of the horn. You'd have to have somebody there waiting on the train to show up and then close that far platform in order to do the movement. There seemed to be a suggestion that a train could just roll up the northbound local track past 42nd and then reverse right in. It takes a bit more coordination to accomplish the movement ... that's all. :)
Not quite. The existing shuttle station at Grand Central is NOT the original station; the original station was further east, and is now part of the corridor to the Lexington line. They did, however, fill in and realign the trackways.
-Hank
I disagree. If you look at the tunnel on 1 track going east, it starts to curve right at the end of the platform. That is original construction; there is no room for the platform to extend to the east.
The passageway was designed, I believe, to extend the 2 and 3 tracks to the east, but never used.
I think there is something on this in the history of the IRT on this site.
Platform at Times Square curved as well. I don't know if they had wall and island plats at GCT (although it seems like it was a good idea NOW) but those aren't the original platforms. Joe Brennan's list says they're further east, and part of the passageway.
-Hank
On my way home, I'll take a look at 1 track at Grand Central. It sure looks like the continued tunnel is the original.
Times Square side (1 and 4 track) platforms are original -- note the round iron columns. The IRT designers used curved platforms at several locations -- the original Brooklyn Bridge, 14th, Times Square, South Ferry come to mind.
An excerpt from here reads,
The Shuttle station in use now is the original Grand Central station on the Day One IRT. However, when the shuttle reconfiguration took place in 1918, a new Shuttle station was to be built nearer to the new Lexington Avenue station's mezzanine. The two north side tracks under 42nd Street would continue east to the new station...While the station was being built, crowds using the shuttle at the old station proved to be greater than anticipated, and it was realized that two tracks and one narrow platform would never be enough. The new station idea was scrapped, and the newly built trackways were boarded over.
They were going to built a new station, but they never finished it.
They finished it, but realized it inadequate unless Times Square was lenghtened, so it became a passageway.
Any nice traction fans out there having or knowing where to obtain construction photos of the BRT WEST END EL under construction (and early period photos), from the time period 1916-1920 please contact me either here or at:
a.m.voci@verizon.net
italianguyinsi@aol.com
Thank you!
While we're about it, if someone can tell me where to get some color photos of the Triplex Sea Beach train of yore, let me know, too. I don't know if many or any exist, but I'd love to get my hands on some of them if they do..
I could be wrong but I think you might find these in Brian Cudahy's "Under the Sidewalks of New York". If not there, go to the New York City Transit Museum in Brooklyn and pick up that book (the actual title escapes me for the moment) on subway cars of the BMT.
Eric D. Smith
There is a b/w photo of the Sea Beach under construction in Cudahy's book.
"Subway Cars of the BMT" (ISBN# 0964576511) by James Greller has a few color photos of triplexes. Sometimes Barnes and Noble carries this book.
I have the book but there are no color photos of the Triplex #4 Sea Beach. But there is one of the damn Brighton. BOOOOOO HOOOOOO. Drink up Bob, next stop 20th Avenue on the Sea Beach.
Make an appointment to visit the NYC Transit Archives (in the basement of the NYC Transit Authority Headquarters in Brooklyn)and ask for the files titled "El photos". You should find something there.
Eric D. Smith
Ahhh...very good idea!! Thank You!
Are you referring to 370 Jay or 130 Livingston?
There is a book about the Dual Contracts whose title escapes me at the moment which has a nice photo of the West End when new along New Utrecht Ave.
If you should happen to remember it, please write to me either her or at
a.m.voci@verizon.net OR
italianguyinsi@aol.com
thanks!
Which of the 825 cars have been drawbarred into 5-car sets, and which will move to the Flushing line ?
The answer is: all.
R62A's will be the equipment eventually transferred to the 7. R62's are exclusively used by the 4.
Even the ones on the 3 ? Are there drawbarred 4-car sets ?
If they are drawbarred, what is the planned configuration when they have 11 cars.
Will they add a single unit at the end and remove a full width cab from a 5 car unit, or will they break up a 5 car unit with consecutive numbers and drop a single in the middle?
1. Why are the R62's drawbarred?
2. Does the TA plan to remove the operator's cabs from the middle cars of drawbarred R62's during their next overhaul?
3. Will the above also apply to most of the R62A, R68 and R68 cars?
Probably, it will be two sets (A and B) and a single car (C) coupled like this:
A-A-A-A-A-C-B-B-B-B-B
I think that they'll change the way they convert the cabs, so that the extra panel can be folded away.
BTW, the drawbar connects the coupler to the draft gear. Train Dude mentioned the differences before.
-Hank
Perhaps on future orders of IRT cars, they should consider an alternative to a full-time full-width cab. Some other cities (Chicago and Washington come to mind) have a corner cab door that swings out to shut off the entire full-width area; the non-T.O. side has foldaway seats and a partition. Of course, this would never work in New York; the open corner would be taken over by sleeping homeless people.
This arrangement would work in New York if the non-T.O. side could be enclosed with a door (that would fold away flush with the partition) when a full-width cab is in use. When no cab is being used, it would be configured, in effect, as two closed corner cabs with passenger access to the storm door. By doing this, a car with a cab at the end could be used anywhere in a train.
Why didn't the brains designing the New York cars think about that? Excellent thought.
That is how it works. THe two seats across from the cab are removed, and the panel swings out from the wall.
-Hank
Except that they have riveted metal sheets over the opening for the window and lock for the panel in the R62A's with full width cabs. They would have to remove both of those things and find some seats to throw in there in order to convert them back to corner cabs. So much for planning.
The units with full cabs that run on the shuttle do not have these covers. The is a window in place and the lock is not covered.
Shawn.
I can't determine by the track maps if any service that terminates at 145 is turned on the upper or the lower level?
168 has the terminal trackage that I can see, but with 145 I cannot tell.
B service at 145 terminates on the middle track on the lower level. Trains do not relay, the next T/O operates from the south end and departs the station.
When there is a train currently occupying the center track and it becomes necessary to bring in another B train, it is wrong railed into the 145 St station via 1 track where it terminates. The train on 1 track will then become the next departure so as to not block southbound D service.
Thank you for explaining it to me. In the way you described it:
Is the S/B service from the Grand Councouse on Track 1, meaning Track 1 is the most western track.
Thanks again.
In the B division on mainline tracks:
Four track setup
1 track is the southbound local track
2 track is the northbound local track
3 track is the southbound express track
4 track is the northbound express track
On a three track setup the middle track is known as 3/4 track. It's 3 if going south, 4 if going north.
On a two track setup 1 is north, 2 is south.
On any additional trackage, odd numbers go south, even numbers go north. Example: 135 St on the A where there is a six track layout. The south spur is 5 track, the north spur is 6 track. This system does not apply to yard trackage but does apply to yard leads.
In the A division:
1-south lcl
2-south exp
3-north exp
4-north lcl
On a three track setup, the middle track is known as M track regardless of the direction of travel. Anything further would have to be posted by an A division man as it gets a little confusing afterwards. For example:
The two terminal tracks at Van Cortlandt are 1 and 4 tracks.
The two terminal tracks at 241-White Plains are 2 and 3 tracks.
I have no idea about Brooklyn.
The 145 St Sta is a 3 track layout, so that would make Track 1 the SB local track. Meaning that a SB D would come in on the middle track if a B is waiting to turnaround. If there is no SB D then the B comes in on the middle track. During peak time when the middle track would be occupied, the B is extended to Bedford Park Blvd. Please correct me if I am wrong, thanx.
Are there any crossovers north of 145 St which would allow a southbound D to come in on the middle track? I don't think that there are.
-- Ed Sachs
There are no switches north of 145th. If a southbound D has stopped at 155th St, the train must come in on the local track.
Two spots where a southbound D can cross from 1 tk to 3 tk is at Tremont Av and 167 St. Two satellite towers are at those locations.
Ok, here's the deal. If a B train has to enter 145 St on 1 track to terminate, that train is the very next to leave going southbound (usually in & right back out) so as to avoid blocking the D. There are no southbound switches between 145 St and 167 St. The only instance in which a D train would be re-routed onto the express at 167 would be because of mechanical failure on the B on 1 track. And that scenario would not develop when 167 tower is not operating.
Um, isn't it consistant with northbound tracks being the even tracks, and southbound being the odd, IE, 1 track is always southbound? From what you posted, the track numbers would change on the CPW line past 168st when it goes from 4 tracks to 2 tracks.
-Hank
In that area of town, the local and express tracks branch off. A1 and A2 tracks end in 174 St Yard. A3 and A4 tracks continue north to 207 St. The track numbers would change when the track letter designation changes as well.
There are three A5 and A6 track designations on the 8th Av Line north of 125 St. You have A5 & A6 spurs at 135 St, A5 stub and A6 tracks in 174 St Yard and A5 and A6 in the middle at Dyckman St which lead to 207 St Yard. An A7 track also exists on the 207 St Yard lead and in 174 St Yard.
The two track designation as listed in the prior post is meant for lines that do not branch out into local & express trackage (i.e. the J/L/M lines).
Otherwise things can get a little complicated. Take for example the A line in Queens. At Rockaway Blvd you have K1 and K2 tracks adjacent to their respective platforms, and you have K3/4 track in the middle. North of Rockaway Blvd, K1 and K2 continue on to Lefferts Blvd with another K3/4 track in the middle from 104 St to north of Lefferts.
Now follow me here, the K3/4 track that we were talking about at Rockaway Blvd, well if you continue towards Euclid Av, north of the switches at 80 St, K3/4 turns into K6 track in both directions from 80 St to Pitkin Yard. Going the other way at Rock Blvd, K3/4 turns into F4 and F3 track begins. These two tracks continue to north of Aqueduct Racetrack where it goes into a four track layout. The outside tracks are now F1 and F2 with the out of service tracks in the middle being F3 and F4. As you approach the North Channel Bridge, F1 and F2 end and merge into F3 and F4 which continue on towards Hammels Wye. At the Wye, F3 and F4 continue to Rockaway Park with F3A and F4A tracks continuing on to Far Rockaway. The Wye flyover is known as F6. Rockaway Park Yard goes from F6 to F12 with an F5 spur on the opposite side of Rockaway Park station. So as you can see the track numbers can get a little complicated and cannot be identified with a standard formula.
Wow, I'm confused beyond belief....LOL
LMAO, mission accomplished! :)
My point was, thought, that all ODD numbers are the southbound, and ALL even numbers are northbound, so a train on the IND, local all the way, would be only on odd tracks southbound, and vice-versa.
-Hank
Correct.
Does anyone have any idea as to why the track designations of the J/M lines defies logic?
In the A division:
1-south lcl
2-south exp
3-north exp
4-north lcl
On a three track setup, the middle track is known as M track regardless of the direction of travel. Anything further would have to be posted by an A
division man as it gets a little confusing afterwards. For example:
The two terminal tracks at Van Cortlandt are 1 and 4 tracks.
The two terminal tracks at 241-White Plains are 2 and 3 tracks.
I have no idea about Brooklyn.
242/ Van Cortlandt - 1 & 4 Tracks
241/ White Plains - 2 & 3 Tracks
148/ Lenox Term. - 1 & 4 Tracks
Woodlawn - 1 & 4 Tracks
Dyre Ave Y1 & Y2 Tracks
Pelham Bay - 1 & 4 Tracks
Main St & Times Sq - 1 &2 Tracks (Main St also has M Track)
Flatbush Ave - 2 & 3 Tracks (2 Track is "too far from the Dispatcher", ie it's the track the 5 train uses)
New Lots Ave - 1 & 4 Tracks
Line track switching:
1/9 southbound 1 Track to A Loop to 4 Track northbound.
2 southbound on 2 Track to south of Boro Hall, then 1 Track to Nostrand Junction, then 2 Track to Flatbush.
2 northbound on 3 Track to Nostrand Junction, then 4 Track to south of Boro hall, then 3 Track to White Plains.
3 southbound on 1 Track to 142 St Junction, then 2 Track to south of Boro Hall, then 1 Track to New Lots.
3 northbound on 4 Track to south of Boro Hall, then 3 Track to 142 St Junction, then 4 track to Lenox terminal.
4 southbound on 1 Track to 125 St, then 2 Track to Utica Ave.
4 northbound on 3 Track to 125 St, then 4 Track to Woodlawn.
5 southbound Y1 Track to north of E.180 St, then M Track or 2 Track to 149/ 3rd Ave, then 2 Track to Mott Ave, then 1 Track to 125 St, then 2
Track to Bowling Green (then B Loop to 3 Track) or Flatbush.
5 northbound 3 Track to 125 St, then 4 Track to Mott Ave, then 3 Track to 149/3rd Ave then 3 Track or M Track to north of E.180 St then Y2 Track
to Dyre.
6 southbound 1 Track to Brooklyn Bridge Loop to 4 Track northbound.
7 inbound 1 Track or M track to north of Queensboro Plaza, then 1 Track to Times Sq.
7 oubound 2 Track to north of Queensboro Plaza, the 2 Track or M Track to Main Street.
South of Borough Hall on the 2 & 3 line is the only place in the IRT where the Track number changes without crossing a switch. Contrary to the rest
of the IRT, the Flushing line and the Dyre Ave line tracks are numbered as if they were in the B Division (Heck, even the radios on the 7 are set on
B1). Why anyone who works in a place where 1 Track can go both north and south at the same station as 2 Track can go north and south should be
confused by this, I'm not sure.
Perhaps the 7 is designated in B Division style because it was part of the joint service (IRT-BMT)? Dyer Ave. was added from the old New YOrk and New England - perhaps it kept the railroad numbering?
I don't know if Metro North has changed the old designations, but New York bound trains were "eastbound" on the Hudson and Harlem lines, and "westbound" on the New Haven, before the Penn Central merger. (Made sense -- GCT was the eastern terminal of the NYC and the western terminal of the NYNH&H! But having eastbound and westbound trains on the same track!!!
The only B division exception being on the J/M lines north of Broad Street where the numbers are flip-flopped. 1 track goes north while 2 track goes south. On 3/4 track 3 goes north, 4 south.
Actually isn't it that all tracks leading AWAY from Broad Street are considered to go _System_ South? -or was that Chambers. I forget.
The sad event in Syracuse again raises the issue of improving safety on the rails. The wreck this week apparently involvd a misread or misinterpreted signal in light snow. Five years ago eight people died at Georgetwon Jct (Silver Spring) on CSX, again either a misread or perhaps disobeyed signal in falling snow(the engineer died). In both instances, I believe cab signals would have prevented the accidents. Unfortunately the FRA response to the earlier wreck was to raise the impact resistance numbers for new push pull cab caes--which does nothing for anyone in a grandfathered car. I believe, expensive as it may be, it is time for all FRA administered trackage hosting a mix of freight and passenger trains, to be cab signalled as fast as practicable. Naturally I believe this should be a Federal expenditure much as the FAA air safety system is (disclosure) I am a very minor shareholder in CSX and NS.
Your disclosure is commendable, but I think your very reasonable suggestions can stand on their own merits. If we can have national air traffic control, why not railroad control? And why not have unified, standardized "hand-offs" when trains cross boundaries?
If we can have national air traffic control, why not railroad control? And why not have unified, standardized "hand-offs" when trains cross boundaries?
Because they Railroads own %100 of what they run on. They don't use publicly built terminals and they don't run in an ownership void like the nation's airspace. This makes them free from government interfereance. BTW the current air traffic control system is about 2 shakes away from a melt down and near misses (taxing planes running into active runways) at airports are reaching alarming levels.
I don't want to sound like a right winger (politically, I'm a radical fundamentalist middle of the roader [less likely to lick the third rail there]) but if there was ever an example of government destroying an industry, one need look no further than the ICC and the railroads for perhaps the best possible example. Railroads are and have always historically been micromanaged by government and pay higher taxes than any other private industry. Look at Mayor Hylan alone in NYC as but one example. That statement notwithstanding, most railroads around the world are owned and operated by government so I suppose ours felt entitled too.
So now here we are post-railroad in the smoking craters known as Gonerail and Hamtrak, trying desperately to turn sows' ears into dotcom purses ripe for the privatization. Homey don't think so. For all the government interference though, it's quite possible that railroads COULD be profitable had they received the largesse the airline industry has received out of our wallets. But bear in mind that as much as we love 'em, railroads and mass transit are albatrosses of a bygone time. That's why funding for them isn't as readily available as it is for busses (highway funds) and airports. The cost per passenger carried is way out there.
As far as I'm personally concerned, if you can't get there by rail, ain't no point in going but that's me and most of the other folks here. But as a practical matter, passenger railroads are dead - the only reason NYC has a semi-vibrant rail network is because it has no other alternatives and had pretty much built out its systems prior to the demise of the railroads in the 1930's to 1950's ... those who rode the troop trains during WWII didn't want to hear about railroads after the condition they had all deteriorated into during the war years and never recovered from. That PBS special the other day really drove that point home for anyone who saw it.
Were that there were many more people like us, this wouldn't be the case. But I really see the demise of railroads continuing in our now-a-gogo "gotta get there yesterday" mentality ... and with Gonerail now sold off to NS and CSX, the taxpayer funding that repaired and replaced damaged mainline probably has stopped and the successors to Gonerail will continue to use the ROWs until they collapse down the embankment and then quickly abandon them once this happens. And the FRA and USDOT will continue to micromanage them until the last train runs.
NYC at least is in a position where it doesn't have any real alternative to railroads ... but such is not the case in most other areas other than "light rail" which is nothing more than the return of trolley cars in an articulated fashion. Heavy rail as we know it is a dinosaur. But it's a really nice dinosaur and I love it very much. Alas, most folks don't and there's the rub. But I wouldn't look to government for solutions, not in railroading. Nor would I look to the railroads who often run on threadbare profits that will erode as they are required to take on their own maintenance of that real estate, coupled with politicos that see out of state operators as a fast cash grab when they need it. CSX in particular is not keen to pay what we call taxes here in this state and I would expect that they will start abandoning lines as quickly as they can in low traffic areas in NY and NJ ... unless government steps in once again and tells them they can't. This cycle's gone on for a very long time and I don't see it stopping any time soon. Only difference is there's no subsidies now.
(But I wouldn't look to government for solutions, not in railroading. Nor would I look to the railroads who often run on threadbare profits
that will erode as they are required to take on their own maintenance of that real estate, coupled with politicos that see out of state operators as a fast cash grab when they need it.)
If the federal government purchased the mainline tracks, making them tax-exempt, and upgraded them to "interstate" standards (ie. two trackes in each direction, no intersections, no sidings except off "exits", shallow curves and grades, capable of up to 100 miles per hour) with environmentally friendly energy tax dollars, then the playing field would be level.
I'd expect railroads to thrive in that environment -- they could go anywhere in the country, just like trucks on the federal highways. Railroads would succeed for any trip over 300 miles because they use less energy and labor to move the same amount of stuff, and both are in short supply in transportation.
If the politicos had the stones to do that, it would work. But don't hold your breath - politicos are looking to cram tax CUTS up the chute rather than asking us to dig a bit deeper for something that would benefit us all. Hell, we can't even get them to keep paying down the DEBT ... but yes, this would be wonderful. Keep breathing though.
If the federal government purchased the mainline tracks,
This is such a bad idea. What if a rail carrier wanted something upgraded. Well first it would either go to the lowest bidder and you'd get a crappy job or it would become a pork project that simply wastes most of the budget. But before they even got to spend money you'd have to have hearings on weither or not the upgrade was needed, are thei being equally fair to all the rail carriers, are they being geographically fair and spreading the money out over all the states and regions. After the decision people get to use. Basically little would get done, what would get done would cost a fortune and it probably wouldn't be helpful.
making them tax-exempt
All railroad property should be made tax exempt as is.
upgraded them to "interstate" standards (ie. two trackes in each direction,
If you built 4 track main lines everywhere you'd have a lot of wasted rails. A modern Rule 261 CTC'd, CWR rail line can probably carry just as much as an old time Rule 251 4 track line. With traffic levels down from the days of the good old 4 track lines you'd have a lot of excess capasity.
no intersections, no sidings except off "exits"
There's a lot of industry that located on freight main lines. Cutting off industrial sidings and industrial tracks won't do much to encourage rail travel. Rule 261 and CTC make interferance from local frieghts minimal.
shallow curves and grades, capable of up to 100 miles per hour
Considering for a moment you even had to room to build rail lines (mountains are hard to move out of the way) what woud the point be. The size and equipment used on freight trains basically limit their speed to 50-70 mph. Why upgrade the track for speeds the trains can't reach.
I'd expect railroads to thrive in that environment -- they could go anywhere in the country, just like trucks on the federal highways.
It would be a mess. If you think airports are bad try to imagine what would happen if 20 trains from different RR's all tried to get into a terminal by 8am to get that day delivery. It would be gridlock. Don't forget how inefficient everything would be. Instead of having one company moving a daily freight from Camden to Allentown you might have 2 or 3. But wait, they're only moving the same amount of cars. So we now have 2-3 crews and 2-3 times more yard and dispatching operations moving the same amount of cars. What little profits the RR's have would quickly drain away. If you like government screwed rail systems move to England. If you want a system that works stay here.
You've sold the railroad's potential a little short, JM. Consider:
1. Speed: The Florida East Coast Railway has operated a high-speed line for years, running nearly 100 container and piggy-back cars at 79 mph. And container cars today can carry liquids and other bulk items. Norfolk Southern has territory where that could happen, too.
2. Double tracks: I agree that four tracks is often wasteful. But a single track line with sidings is often upgradeable to two tracks. And if we want the railroad to move a lot of trains, then two tracks are always better than one.
The Florida East Coast Railway has operated a high-speed line for years, running nearly 100 container and piggy-back cars at 79 mph.
Unfortinitly most of the country has topography.
2. Double tracks: I agree that four tracks is often wasteful. But a single track line with sidings is often upgradeable to two tracks. And if we want the railroad to move a lot of trains, then two tracks are always better than one.
Today railroads are doing a very good job of re-double tracking (or even tripple tracking) their hi-density lines. Government interferance assistance would hinder more than it would help
You could avoid much of the drawbacks of govt involvement if you made it semi-autonomous, a la the Federal Reserve System.
You mean like Amtrak???
No. Amtrak is owned by the govt and subsidized by the govt. The Fed is owned by the banks and capitalized by them, IIRC, although some of its management is chosen by the govt.
A comparable arrangement for the railroads would be for all of the railroads which own their own tracks to give the tracks to a new corp in exchange for shares in the corp. The new corp would be exempt from all taxes and have an upper management jointly selected by the railroad operators and the govt. Each operator would pay the track company for the privilege of running trains on the tracks.
(I'd expect railroads to thrive in that environment -- they could go anywhere in the country, just like trucks on the federal highways.
It would be a mess. If you think airports are bad try to imagine what would happen if 20 trains from different RR's all tried to get into a terminal by 8am to get that day delivery. It would be gridlock.)
Just to complete the thought, I suggested that railroads bid for travel slots, with a right to trade them later, and that revenues from the bidding be used to finance the operating expenditures of the network.
Railroads are the equivalent of the old U.S. highways. The government build interstates for rubber tire traffic. If it did the same for the railroads, they, and we, would be better off.
If it did the same for the railroads, they, and we, would be better off.
If they hadn't built the roads in the first place the Railroads would be better off. At least in the 50's and 60's even the best RoW possible couldn't compete w/ roads travel. The only way for RR's to make money was to cut back to a skeleton operation.
Five years ago eight people died at Georgetwon Jct (Silver Spring) on CSX, again either a misread or perhaps disobeyed signal in falling snow(the engineer died).
The Engineer forgot he was in an approach block and thought the next signal to be something other than red.
which does nothing for anyone in a grandfathered car. I believe, expensive as it may be, it is time for all FRA administered trackage hosting a mix of freight and passenger trains, to be cab signalled as fast as practicable.
That might be a little hard because some Amtrak routes DON'T EVEN HAVE REGULAR SIGNALS. Same goes for commuter roads like ConnDoT with low density branches. The Chicago, South Shore and South Bend interurban line is the last RR in the country to still use timetable, train orders and the superiority of trains.
We would all love cab signals, but we should make the railroads install them. To do so would either mean the end of passenger travel, bankruptcy for the railroads or more cuts in service.
"We would all love cab signals, but we should make the railroads install them. To do so would either mean the end of passenger travel, bankruptcy for the railroads or more cuts in service."
Could you clarify your remarks? You want the railroads to be required to install cab signalling (as opposed to the taxpayer?) but you feel that the railroads can't afford to do so. Did I restate your opinion correctly?
Shouldn't. We shouldn't make railroads install them. The n't got lost somewhere between my brain and my fingers. Maybe that's what's causing that pain in my armpit.
Now I think I understand. It might be better if public authorities did it, but the RR's would not want the ensuing involvement and additional regs in their operations.
To be fair, however, airlines have learned to live with, ands profit from, their relationship with the FAA. Railroads could learn to do the same...
Railroads have learned to profit, period. Freight lines are now making money w/ very little government assistance. This assistance is in the forme of money to improve inforstructure, but the private railroads who know how to use it best are in charge of it.
Got off the bus at Main street to get the 7 at around 9:30 this AM. The platform was more packed than usual. An OOS train was on the south track, and an express train was pulling in the middle. All the people board the middle train and the T/O begins charging the train. They send the OOS train out on the M track, then the T/O gets told that the train is a local and not his train. Another train pulls in on the south track. Everybody rushes across the platform and out of the local in the middle, old man shoves past me. Then the T/O and everyone board the train on the south track.
Finally we able to leave, and express. It felt as if there were a 15 minute gap in express service. Was pretty packed the whole way in.
I guess somebody screwed up at the tower!!!
Also there were track workers near W4th in the 6th ave dash. Ruined any opportunity for speed. The F going back was fast though.
They also had workers near the ramp into the tunnel by HP.
Was on the Lex line today also, but did not see any R142's.
Still alot of 'birds around! That 5 train I was on flew down the express. Show me an R62 or 142 that can do that!
>>That 5 train I was on flew down the express...
Testify!! A recent vidcam expedition on 5 proved
pulsating.. that redbird was just gliiiiiiding
down the S/B tunnel entering Boro Hall...
By gliiiiiiding i mean faster than hyper-blink.
So !! the redbirds are FASTER ?? hmmmm!
keep up the good work !!
IMHO, Main Street is the most incompetent tower in the system. The dispatch gives a train the start, but the home signal is still on RR-, and it stays like that for up to 2 minutes! I was on a train there where the TO repeatedly gave four short blasts of the whistle until the train got a line-up.
I happen to have received information on the car Nos. of one trainset of R-33s that are running on the #6 line. The Nos. are (front cars 9227-26, 9238-39, 9292-93, 9223-24, 9269-68 last cars). Please let me or anyone else who is interested know if anymore R-33s are spotted on the #6 line.
BMTJeff
I've often read or heard about plans to cover the 30th St. Amtrak yards in West Philly and reimpose the street grid on top of them, hopefully developing more office or residential skyscrapers. First of all, does Amtrak own this land and its airspace? I know it's in Amtrak's best interest to make the most of its real estate assets to balance the bottom line, but I don't know if this would be cost effective in today's real estate market. I know there are plans for at least 2 or 3 office skyscrapers in Center City right now, and the extension of center city across the river would be a natural continuation of the Penn Center development over the Chinese Wall, but I tend to have my doubts. Does anyone have any inside information or opinions about the viability of this long talked about project? Thanks.
Check out the German 'Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung' English Edition this morning (08 Feb) at:
http://www.faz.com/IN/INtemplates/eFAZ/default.asp
Click on 'Culture & Society'; assuming it WAS a 'D' train, what type of car was the photo taken from?
Assuming that's the route sign in the middle left side of the photo and not a reflection, it's an R-68, which has been the mainstay of the D line since that photo was taken.
However, the D train itself is running on the wrong side of the Manny B in the photo -- it normally runs on the tracks facing away from the Brooklyn Bridge, which connect to the Sixth Ave. line. But 1988 was about the time of the last bridge construction switchover, when the D was running on the Broadway line, so the photo's title and the exterior image may not be in conflict.
Looks like an R-44 on the MannyB to me ...
That's, without a doubt, an R-68.
Peace,
ANDEE
Saw 4222,23,26,27 in service on the L on Monday. They must be on loan because maybe 4 Canarsie slants are in the main shop at CIYD.
Not a rarity. I don't think they took anything from Coney Island. Livonia/ENY keeps a few R-40 slants, and in my approximation about 1 out of every 5-6 L trains nowadays seems to be a slant.
Those 4200 cars definitely came from Coney Island.
All 4100 to low 4300 series slants belong to Coney Island. Everything higher belongs to East New York.
BTW, what's the status with "Frankenslant"? Is it nearing completion?
BMTman
I saw an R40 slant J train running light through Forest Pkway towards Jamaica this morning around 6:20. These slants on the J are quickly becoming more frequent. Perhaps these cars are from the L (one number I caught was 4409) and are being replaced by CI R40's.
Hi. Can anyone please point me to a Web page or pages containing track maps of New-York-City-area railroads, such as the Long Island Railroad, the Metro North, New Jersey Transit, and/or Amtrak?
- Lyle Goldman
www.mta.nyc.ny.us/ = This web site for LIRR, Metro North.
www.njtransit.state.nj.us/ = NJ Transit
www.amtrak.com = Amtrak
I'm not aware that these sites have track maps (as opposed to route maps).
in my opinion, a track map on any of these railroads, {maybe with the exception of NJ Transit and LIRR} would be huge, and take up multiple computer files.
If you exclude the complicated interlockings (GCT, Hoboken, Jamaica, NYP, HAROLD) and not draw to scale it wouldn't be much bigger than the route map.
Instead of www.mta.nyc.ny.us, use www.mnr.org.
What is the difference between those two sites? They look exactly the same!
The point is that mnr.org is much easier to both type and pronounce.
You can also use lirr.org, mtahq.org, nyct.org, libus.org or mtabt.org.
Its interestng to note what their expectations about profits are given their choice of domain extention.
They are the same! I am sure Dave Pirmann can elaborate, but here goes: The other sites mentioned are aliases which return the "parent" site. To some extent this is done here: When you see an e-mail such as "name@nycsubway.org" it is automatically sent to the person's e-mail account as specified such as "name@isp.com" but the heading will say it is sent to "name@nycsubway.org"
http://www.blockstation.net/
Those are 1992 Track and Signal daigrams for the NEC south of FAIR and the Harrisburg Line.
http://gateway.eeg.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/
Those are Interlocking Diagrams for the PRR. It covers the whole NEC including F and R interlockings at Sunnyside, C and KN interlockings in Penn Station, Penn Station itself and HUDSON, WALDO, DOCK, HACK, HUNTER, LANE, LINCOLN, COUNTY, MIDWAY, NASSAU, FAIR, MILLHAM, KEARNY, GRAPE, WA-6, WA-2, BAY and UNION interlockings in New Jersey.
http://raildata.railfan.net/index.html
This is a page about historical RR's in NJ and they have track diagrams of most DL&W and Erie lines in NJ and grade profiles of the CNJ and SIRR. I hope these help.
The bastard did so via a "pocket veto" meaning that he took no action on it in the 30 day period after the state Legislature reconvened.
So much for that.
And you're surprised? GE needs a welfare check ya know ... this is business as usual for him and Joey Bruno - butt buddies to the end. Just think - there'd be a second avenue subway if Paturkey had gotten off his duff and sold the bond issue to the taxpayers ... but because the money would have largely gone to the MTA, everybody up here in Smallbany wanted it to die. These be republican times. Nobody's gonna get laid. :)
And what was the nature of this bill?
All of you out there learn from this and REMEMBER this come gubernatorial election time, payback is certainly a (w)itch!! The GOP actually in office is quickly becoming a DYING breed, lets help make them a terminally ill if not altogether DOA one!!! :< Thomas.
Thanks to Willie James' TOTAL INCOMPETENCE AND/OR INEPTNESS, the Health Benefit Trust is facing a $19 million deficit this year and a $31 million deficit in 2002 according to The Chief.
To maintain current benefits, Local 100 is projecting that the members would have to pay $600 each this year so as to avoid the collapse of the HBT.
The full story is in the current Feb.9 edition of The Chief.
That is why current contract talks with the rest of the city workers just settle the Health and Wellfare issue and have yet to talk about cash. I believe only the Cops did not agree to it. Of course the members will vote on the total package once wages are covered. Just an agreement with the barganing units.
The healthcare industry will be the death of us all. Medicaid costs are soaring as well. Local 1199 and the Greater New York Hospital Assn. are the winners. Education, transit, taxpayers and all other public employees are the losers.
It isn't much better outside the NY area. Meaning non-union, etc.Costs in rural /small town areas way beyond most peoples' means. Wages remain low as a rule, so Medicaid has to pick up the difference. [Likewise those low-wage jobs offer no health benefits in most cases]. I don't like Americanizes socialism but if people are willing to work they deserve a hand. Just another way of subsidizing big business...such as the huge, wealthy national restaurant chains.
I'm am SO in agreemnt with you-Obviously a need exists for the working poor, be it healthcare or simply the cash difference between what the minimum poverty level is and the miserable trifle wage they're actually being paid. Someone has to pick up the difference, and it always seems to be the taxpayer. So you see, the difference between what business SHOULD be paying and what they actually ARE paying goes of course right back into their pockets- I've got a revoloutionary idea-howza bout we pass legislation to tax that difference at the 95% rate, since through their bottom-line tunnel vision they'd quickly figure out that it now makes more financial sense to pay a decent, living wage than not to. ALL THIS BULL@#%* ABOUT "WELFARE REFORM"- CORPORATE WELFARE HAS ALWAYS CONSISTANTLY COST THIS NATION FAR MORE THAN THE MEAGER HANDOUTS WE DOLE OUT LIKE ALMS TO THE POOR TO OUR LESS FORTUNATE CITIZENS!!!! And with "W" in office, even if illegitamately, this can and will only get worse. Remember this and learn from this come NOVEMBER!!! Peace and prosperity through union and fraternal working-class solidarity, Thomas.
Thanks to the engineer keeping his door open (again) last night, I spotted the speedometer hit 70 as the MU train tore eastbound in the tunnel between ENY and Jamaica.
All I could think was "wow, hope there isn't a broken rail up ahead..."
What a rush!
Is that stretch of track welded? Is it on a concret bed?
Your reading public have a need to know, a hunger to hear, a thirst to quench.
Tell us more, don't leave out any of the details. Was it a full boat?
How long a consist? Did the women and children cry out for mercy?
What are you waiting for man, out with it!
avid
The track is welded and there is a concrete bed. After leaving ENY, there is a mild left-hand curve, and then its a straight shot all the way to Woodhaven, where the tunnel ends and the train approaches a set of switches that are used to guide trains to various tracks in the Jamaica station. There are a few interesting sights along the way, including the abandoned trackways leading to/from the elevated Ozone Park station on the abandoned Rock Beach line, and the abandoned Woodhaven underground station (which looks to be in fine shape, might I add....). There are only 2 or 3 semaphore-type signals in the entire stretch of tunnel, and they are all usually green.
The consist was a standard 6-car MU train, heading to Far Rock. This train is never full even during rush hours, and since it was a relatively late train (8:10 p.m.), it was even emptier than usual. I didn't hear anyone cry out for mercy; in fact, most people appeared to have been either sleeping or reading. No one even looked up. I was on the verge of getting a little nervous upon seeing the walls flash by....what a rush!
Now that was a great,in depth report.
avid
Are you being facetious?
BTW,
MAS (maximum authorized speed) for the Brooklyn tunnel between East New York and Jamaica is 80mph, the el portion is 40mph. As a addded bonus of facts, the MAS for the east River tunnels is 50mph, the reason being is that any faster and the M1s would have a tendency to sway and hit the walls. In the past, sometinmes you would hear the banging of the M1s into walls as the engineer tried to make up lost time. Also, look at many of the M1s, notice the dings and dents at the widest portion of the cars, that's where they hit!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
You keep mentioning this Hot Lunch. Where would I get this Hot Lunch you have and what does your Hot Lunch consist of?
It was a dark and stormy night . Rain was beating down on the West Street Dinner. Inside
heypaul and Kingfish were fini
It was a dark and stormey night. Rain was beating down on the West Street Dinner . Inside, heypaul and the Kingfish were finishing the Poached Swamp carp over wild rice and scallions with a side order of Brusselsprouts. the waitress, Lolita, was bring the coffee pot to refill their cups and take their desert orders. They both chose the bread pudding, the dinner was famous for it. It would be a long time
before they would get a chance to have it again.
On the table, spread out before them were the various Field and stream catologs.
Kingfish was selecting the best and most expensive items he needed for the upcoming fishing trip.
As usual, heypaul frugally selected the most cost effective items that he couldn't borrow from BMTman. If BMTman didn't have, he knew were it was stored, unguarded. That usually ment a call to Jerseymike, another sportsman.
heypaul went over his list one last time, then folded ithe sheet up and put the list in his shirt pocket.
The Kingfish resorted his nine page list, put it in his three holed punch and then placed it in his binder.
heypaul looked up at Kingfish and asked how were they going to get there? How long would it take to get to Yellowstone National Park and Refuge?
"No problem!"said Kingfish. "I've got everything covered!
" A buddie of mine skipped out on his old lady."He took off with his girlfriend from El Salvadore, the banana packer. HE worked at the AL SHARPTON Memorial BUS Depot at Howard Beach."
heypaul asked how does that help them.
'He deadlined a GM RTS for faulty window latches. Then he rebuilt it before selling it for scrap. He sold it to his wife."
So, how does that help us, heypaul asked again.
Kingfish smiled benevolently at heypaul. His wife called me, She was in a bind, she needed help paying some bills her husband stuck her with. I pick it up for three bills.
WOW! said heypaul "a whole bus for $3,000.
"No." said Kingfish.
"What, $3oo." said heypaul.
"No" said Kingfish, " The phone bill, the Con Ed bill and the newspaper bill." We'll be going in style!"
The next morning , BMTman brought the things heypaul requested for the trip. When he had a chance to speak to heypaul alone, he told him "Watch your back, I don't trust this dude. He has shifty beady eyes.
heypaul insisted all would be okay, but I'll be careful.
The sportsmen boarded the rolling hunting lodge and headed for the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel.
It would be a while before BMTman saw his pal again.
The trip across country was for the most part uneventful. A side detour took them to Steamtown and Scranton. They stopped for a late breakfast at Chuckies Dinner on Moosic Street.
It seemed to bother the Kingfish, when Mona, the oldest living waitress in the world gave heypaul a hug. When she asked if he'd have the "Usual"?
heypaul just nodded his head and said "That would be just fine."
The Kingfish was itching to find out more, but heypaul was tightlipped as usual about his circle of friends and contacts. This was starting to really eat away at the Kingfishs nerves.
The kingfish orderd Cornedbeef hash and eggs.
heypaul asked him if he ever tried clamhash n eggs? he Kingfish just looked back at him with a blank look on his face.
There food came out. Three waitresses brought the trays. Kingfish got his ordered of hash and eggs , toast and a cup of coffee.
heypaul started with a bowl of fresh fruit, followed by hugh whole wheat blueberry waffels with whipped cream. Them came an assortment of Canadian bacon,homemade Polis Sausage and fresh, hot out of the oven, Kaiser rolls. A hugh glass of skimmed milk with a wedge of peach on the rim.
They ate in silence. When ever the Kingfish ask heypaul about his breakfast, heypaul mimmbled something with a full mouth of food.
The service was flawless, the waitresses were constantly at heypauls side with fresh butter, new napkins, refilling his glass, taking awat empty dishes. The motion was as smooth as poetry. At long last , heypaul pushed back from the table and folded his napkin.
Chuckie, himself, brougth the bill. he turned it face down and slid it towards the Kingfish. Chuckie looked at heypaul and said "Thanks heypaul." Please next time let us know when you'll be in town, we'll fix you something special! Chuckie didn't even look at Kingfish, he turned and went back into the kitchen area.
The Kingfish turned the the bill over. It had only the hash and egg special on it. $5.95.
The kingfish put a quarter on the table and took the check to the cashier. He gave her six bucks and told her o keep the change.
heypaul took the opportunity to stick his head in the kitchen to thank every one, just a quick hello and good bye.
Smiles and hellos and come agains went back and forth.
The Kingfish was egar to get away. They screwed up the bill, and he wanted to leave before they found about it.
As they headed for the hunting lodge on wheels, Mona came running after them across the parking lot. She was waving at them.
Kingfish was yelling, demanding that heypaul jump in the bus , so the could take off.
heypaul turned to Mona.
She ran up, gasping for breath as she handed him a large paper sack.
"A little something for the road." she said.
" Thanks babe" heypaul said with a hug.Then he humped on board.
The Kingfish gunned the motor . he looked at heypaul with his "poolshark grin, and said, " They didn't charge us for your order, we beat 'em!
They don't charge me or BMTman, ever! heypaul countered. There just old friends, good old friends.
A dark look washed over the Kingfish, he turned his face back to the road and accelerated, not mindful they were still in a speed zone.
Someone else was as The Kingfish slowrolled through a stop sign.
They headed to Steamtown.
They hadn't gonee very far when the Kingfish noticed the Flashing Red,blue and strob lights in the mirror. he pulled over at the first available spot and came to a halt.
"Just what I need." he muttered to no one in particular, as the officer pulled in front of the bus at a safe distance.
The officer dismounted and walked towards the door as he removed his gloves and reached for his citation book.
heypaul giggled at the way the officer strutted from the bike to the hunting lodge on wheels.
Kingfish opened the door.
the officer ask if he would please shut the motor down.
The kingfish complied.
The usual interpaly followed, the officer asking then stateing what happened, what laws were broken. the driver professing inocence.
heypaul just kept giggeling and making faces, mimicing both the driver,the Kingfish and the officer, Sgt. Nycz, of the Scranton Police, Motorcycle Division.
The officer looked over to heypauland said, "You find something amusing about this?'
Yup! heypaul answered. "Looks like you put on some weight. Ain't you a little chuckie to be a bike cop?"
"I got Your Chunkie right here." he answered. "Now follow ME!"
He returned to his bike. Kingfish complied and followed,all the time swearing at heypaul for making things worse. They went through town to the Vehicle Inspection station. A Deligation of officers and plainclothes were waiting for them.
A greyhaired gentleman in an expensive suit came to the door.
Kingfish open the door.
The suit instructed Kingfish to turn the motor off, then both were to get off of the bus.
As they did , an officer with a K-9 dog went on board, followed by a team of investigators. They went through the hunting lodge, taking vidios and stills from every possible angle. Another team opend the engin compartment and did the same. Officers with mirrors checked the wheel wells . then the bus was driven to a lift. The search went on by the inspection team for over an hour.
The police seperated Kingfish and heypaul. Each was questioned.
Kingfish was given the usual small town through top to bottom grilling and sermon about the sanctity of the law and streets of Scranton, Pa.
In another room, backs were being slapped , old friends were catching up on new and old times.
When at last the two sportsmen were united, the suit had a ticket issued to the Kingfish for several moving violations. He told the Kingfish he stopped short of recommending Jail time if he left the state immeadiately. He was not permitted to drive. They would be given an escort to the town limits were a State Police escort would be waiting for them.
It was. The escort changed several time before the reached the Ohio boarder. When they reach Ohio, they were greeted by more Flashing lights. An officer directed heypaul to a truck stop were the rolling hunting lodge was serviced, fueled and had the windows cleaned. Another team of inspectors searched the bus, vidios,stills and questions about the turbo charged engin, the Parrelli tires.
The were escorted to the Indiana border. The process was repeated again. Then again for the next three states, until they reached Nebraska.
Kingfish was seething, he was grinding his teeth. He was sure there was some sort of plot to challange his Manhood. Just who the hell was this heypal anyway?
They reached Omaha on the third day of their cross country trip. It was a relief to finally be free of the Escort. They headed for Phillips 76 Truck Stop. They shut down the bus, and headed for the dinning room.
As they walked across the gravel parking lot, blinding lights snapped on. A horde of T.V. and news people swarmmed around them. They were soon separated. Questions were throw at them.
The Kingfish was asked about connection to Organized crime. He answered with "Leave us alone. We just want to eat."
heypaul was asked if he was on a mission that involved "NATIONAL SECURITY" he answered "NO COMMENT".
There was a lot of pushing and shoving going on and heypaul was beginning to be concerned.
A great silence came over the rude mob of journelist.
The mayor of Omaha, leading a phalanx of S.W.A.T. and RIOT police formed a protective wall around the two sportsman. They then doubletimed into a private entrance into one of the dinning rooms few V.I.P. lounges.
The mayor apologized for being late, The aircover for the bus had to be canceled due to a faulty rotor. They had lost the position of the Hunting lodge.
heypaul assured the mayor it was okay, not to worry. If the mayor could some how detain or mislead the press that would more than make things right.
The mayors face beamed with a big toothy grin and said"My Pleasure."
heypaul asked if they could cancel the air cover too, they just wanted to do some fishing.
the mayor said "You got it, Sir."
At last when they were finally alone and eating, the Kingfish could no longer contain himself. He asked " Just what the F#*&k is F#*&king
going F#*&king here? I'd F#*&kin like to F#*&kin know!
heypaul explained how he and BMTman on a trip to Steamtown many years back met up with Sgt Nycz of the Scranton P.D. He was donating so time restoring some coal shovels for some locamotives. It seemed the Scranton P.D. S.W.A.T. people were having trouble zeroing in their new equipement. heypaul did a fast calculation in his head, wrote down the formula and instructions in time for the Presidents Visit to Scranton when Hillary Rodman Clintons fathers wake was held.
The S.W.A.T. people set the standard for other states.
Its really no big thing!
So what about the old bag Mona?
heypaul just said "She is Sgt. Nycz grandma, shes a nice lady.
Kingfish countered with "So how come the bag she gave you had those nice meals, and a peanut butter on dry toast. The note inside said for your TIGHT ASS FRIEND.
heypaul said. "I wondered about that too!
The next stop is Yellowstone.
Do I stop here?
Or do you you crave to get to the Good part?
avid
When the Kingfish finished his fourth Coors, he excused himself to head to the bots room.
A different witress approached heypaul.
She said " Hi heypaul, remember me? "
heypaul said "Refresh my Memory please."
She said " Its me, Krissie. Kristina Watanabie, from the Weather Channel. Now do you remember?"
"Oh that Krissie. "said heypaul.
Krissie said "Remember you helped me with my Heat and Mass Transport thesis." the one I needed for my grad work in Meterology."
It helped me get my job at the weather Channel at Prime time!
She asked him if he would give her an exclusive interview.
heypaul nodded his head in afermation.
She said "So whats up? Whats with the escorts across country?
heypaul, not whating to get any of his SWAT friends in trouble said
"I can only tell you it has to do with an on going NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE."
"Is the new administration envolved?" she asked.
"I'm not at liberty to answer that."
" Does it envolve any of the SURVIVORIST in the mountain areas?"
"Not at this time"' "They are not the focus of this trip."
"Is your travel companion envolved?"
"We are working and planning towards the same goal."
"What ,specifily is that goal?"
"Lets Just say this is fishing expidition."
" Of a secret nature?"
" The location will be secret of course."
Krissie thanked heypaul. "I think I have enough material to work with." " Say Hi to Todd when you get back to the big apple.
"Okay, will do"
" Now off the record, is there anything, ANYTHING! I can do for YOU, Just ask, please ask, ANYTHING!"
heypaul thought for a second, put on his famous, sheepish, devilish grin and said" Could you get me some of that foreign bottled water, Poland Springs? Please!"
Krissie ran off to get the water as the Kingfish was returning to the table.
avid
Back in Canarsie, BMTman was glued to the television. Switching back and forth between CNN National and CNN International news Tracking heypauls much touted and reported trip. Since leaving Scranton with a sizable honor guard and Escort.
The entire nation was watching.
In the nations capital, George W. was demanding answers.
"Why had Clinton withheld this information?"
"Call OUR FATHER" he'll find out from the C.I.A.
avid
The Oval Office, the members of the National Security Council were all
present.
"W" demanded all resources be used to get more information.
The F.B.I. was tasked with getting information from the Swat teams in the states involved with the police escorts.
The Secratary of State Held a report in his hands. It was from the Field officer in London. They had contacted their counter parts in MI5 and MI6.
The Secratary said" It seems both this heypaul and Kingfish are Contributers and topics on a thing called Subtalk."
"IT seemes this heypaul person is held in high esteem by all elements of the Group. Right wing conservatives, centrest, and leftwing liberals."
"IS that some sort of subversive group?"
"We're not sure, Chief."
"The MI5 people say its focus is on the Underground."
"You must mean the Underworld, those Brits slaughter the English language."
"The Department of Transportation reports that bus, that Hunting Lodge, that WAR WAGON, doesn't exist."
"WE all saw it, where did it come from?"
"There is absolutly no paper trail!"
" It seems it was some sort of payment of debt. Someone with ties to one of the Banana Republics."
"Drugs?"
"No drugs but......"
"But What?"
"Al Sharptons' name and Howard Beach seem to be involved."
" This is getting more and more complicated. were is this going?"
The head of the F.B.I. interupted.
"We have copies of the vidios the SWAT teams took of the Hunting Lodge."
"Lets have a look."
The whole room sat in silence as the tapes ran. It seemed each tape always focused of heypauls borrowed army surplus clothes and equipement.
There were obvious comparisons with the Eddie Baurer and L.L.Bean clothes of Kingfish.
The Chief spoke up. "It seems we have a team of pro-law enforcement
operatives. Operatives with no visible links to the Government."
"What about the uniforms in the bus?"
"All patches and insignias have been removed or were never on. These uniforms have seen service!"
"Then we're talkin' about EXPERIENCED operatives. Would that be a safe assumption. Wouldn't it?"
"The evidence is circumstantial, Chief. They have spotless records, zero, nada, zilch!"
"I, told you, their Professionals!"
The F.B.I. chief spoke again. "Those SWAT teams want funding for their own HUNTING LODGES , what do I tell them?"
"Stall them for as long as you can." The Boss said.
The door burst open! An aid rushed in! "Mr President, Mr. President. You must see this!" The aid quickly turned on the 47 inch screen T.V.
and flipped to the Weather Channel.
Kristina Watanabie was doing the Weather. A map of the Yellowstone Park area was on screen. Krissie did the weather for the area . Then she did a report that the Hunting lodge was heading to that area and reports for unnamed sources detailing the connection or rather NON-connection of the So called FISHING expedition by the Ultra SWAT team advisors were heading to area of alleged Surrvivalist extremest.She added she personal new one of the occupants, heypaul was exacting, calculating, demanding, and solved all of the problems presented to him. He demanded and received the same from his students."
Mean while back in Canarsie, BMTman begin to make plans.
I don't know what YOU are think of "Hot Lunch" as being....but when you hear that expression coming over the radios of San Francisco Municipal Railway, it means someone PUKED on board the trainor bus.....
"This is 18 ont he 31, gotta hot lunch on bus 7003!"
I used to hear that referred to as Eskimo Pie by the dispatchers at Command [Control] in the 70's when I was a motorman. Yuk.
Does that 40 MPH limit on the elevated portions include the stretch over Atlantic Avenue??? I think that moving a 6-car consist at 40 miles per hour over that ancient structure with no room for error (!) is highly dangerous.
I do like the 80 MPH limit in the tunnels though...would love to see it!
Ancient structure w/ no room for error or not, 40 mph is not that fast in railroad terms. Its equilivent to a 25 mph subway restriction.
What other elevated portion is there on that line?
I guess that means yes.
You're scared at 40 miles an hour on that structure? It's perfectly safe.
I bet you don't do roller coasters.....
And we all know how safe roller coasters are.
[I do like the 80 MPH limit in the tunnels though...would love to see it!]
This was not an isolated incident, as most times the trains out of Atalantic Ave go pritty good in that area, as they do elsewhere on the LIRR, e.g. Babylon (South Shore) line between Rosaedale & Lynbrook.
Mr t__:^)
I hope the 63rd St LIRR tunnel is suitable for high-speed operation...
Time to haul out the maps. ENY to Woodhaven vs. Sunnyside to Lex (where the curve into GCT will probably start). If they really move it in the East River tunnel, the G forces at the bottom will be interesting, unless the tunnel is a constant radius curve in the vertical plane.
Broken Rail? you would have lost your signal if there was a broken rail. Now a cracked rail that still alowed current through it is another story.
MAS is 80MPH and I've seen it ONCE!!
I've seen 40MPH MAS on the elevated many times, sometimes cheating to 42 before overspeed warning.
How fast do trains normally go there?
From Flatbush Avenue to a point 1000 feet west of East New York Station (approximately where the tracks descend from the elevated into the tunnel) LIRR has a speed limit of 40 miles an hour.
From that point to the tunnel mouth at Morris Park (Dunton), they are allowed 80 miles an hour top speed.
Do you remember how former LIRR Pres. Tom Prendergast was know to be seen actually riding his RxR before he moved to SI ?
Well, the new guy, Kenneth J. Bauer, is doing the same AND one better.
Saw this in the lead article in the February 1st issue of "The Record News & The Owl of Rockville Centre". Article by Wendy Myhre-Levy.
In January he sad down with a bunch of average folks for dinner, no not in his house, but at Tredwells in Rockville Centre. He hosted a RailTALK Dinner (hmmm has he been lurking on SubTALK ?) "... to discuss ways in which the rail road could improve."
"Born in Lynbrook and now living in Lido Beach, Bauer rides the rails every day."
Mr t__:^)
APTA has just complied stats for 1998 (guess they have one guy with a green visor & short pencils doing it), it show that NYC, incl. NJ has 45.67% of mass transit business in the nation. Chicago was second, LA third, then San Fran, then the nations capital and finally Boston.
Numbers for 1998 in NYC were 3,508,540,600 ... that's a lot of customers !
Jumping ahead to 2000, pliminary figures, thru Sept. only show NYC now up to 58% of the nation.
Mr t__:^)
Sounds like a good deal. Now to lay out funds for lines that are NEEDED and stop some of the stupid studies that waste taxpayer's money. Like sex lives of some 4-legged critters..mice? or bigger. who knows and it doesn't take people places. Just an example.
New York indeed #1 but then way too much auto/bus/etc traffic. Jerset end of the Lincoln tunnel and surrounding ramps, etc...ohmigosh. I couldn't drive in it.
that shows that we really depend on mass transit. the gov't should pay more attention to their of rehabilitation financially, if Bush ain't gonna be so cheap.
As Far as the previous conversations, the EMU's get a 70 code inside the tunnel. But once they go outside to stop at Nostrand Avenue, it gets a 40 code. I have ridden the LIRR over that stretch. Its a great view. The Trains do at least 35. The Engineers view is incredible!
Now as far as my latest joyride on the LIRR, I rode a Train all the way to Far Rockaway. Interesting enough, this guy got off early before the Train reached the Rockaway platform. He worked for LIRR, because he inserted his key, and one of the 2 doors opened. Interesting enough, is that the Engineer did something(like maybe press a button or something) and instantly the door closed! Does anyone know how he did that?
I think the engineer's compartment actually hangs over nothingness as the train goes over Atlantic Avenue! Must be pretty cool, or pretty scary...
The cab is still on the EL. There is no space at all between the MU and the edge of the EL. I guess thats why theres a 40 MPH limit. Don't want to go to fast and fall of. There is a change of that as you can see.
Any subway Els that narrow?
The big difference between the Altanic Ave LIRR elevated and the subway is that the "walkways" on the subway are on the outside and the one walkway for LIRR is in the middle. Hence you have no guardrails on the LIRR so people won't fall over the edge while walking on the walkway. The two signals on the LIRR jut out over traffic while on a subway elevated they are on the walkway.
Most are the same critter I'd think. The illusion of safety given by the outer catwalks. If you removed them I think they'd look the same. Not that trains fall off anyway. If a derailment happened that railing wouldn't keep it from falling.
I believe the 40 MPH restriction on the Atlantic Avenue el is more to keep noise down for the neighborhood then for any danger.
The lack of an outside catwalk does not place the train in any additional danger of plummeting to the street. This is more a function of good track and good guard rails. Trust me, if one of these babies headed over the side, a typical elevated catwalk and railing would be like throwing sticks in front of a runaway boulder.
The rails themselves are directly on top of the elevated structure's longitudinal members. The ties stick out another foot and a half, outside the rails. And the M-1 cars are yet another couple feet wider than the entire tie.
Yes, part of the cab is out there over nothing. There was a very good picture illustrating this in one of the Long Island Sunrise Trail Chapter/NRHS calenders of the LIRR a few years ago.
But, as has already been mentioned on a previous thread, some flimsy little railing wouldn't keep a derailed rail car from toppling off the structure. It either stays on the rails, or it's toast.
I get the same impression on the Chicago el.I mean L.No outer catwalks on many portions of line. Not that I've ever run them.
Now as far as my latest joyride on the LIRR, I rode a Train all the way to Far Rockaway. Interesting enough, this guy got off early before the Train reached the Rockaway platform. He worked for LIRR, because he inserted his key, and one of the 2 doors opened. Interesting enough, is that the Engineer did something(like maybe press a button or something) and instantly the door closed! Does anyone know how he did that
Could the train have stopped at Boland's Landing?
What do these codes refer to?
The different kinds of rail, some with more steel in them then others.
As you might expect they go to lighter rail on the elevated portion, so they need to keep the speed down due to the lighter rail.
May I suggest you do some poking around in Dave's FAQ section to bring you up to speed with the rest of us ? Call it some home work !
We'll be giving you a test so study hard !
Mr t__:^)
The guy probably got off to throw the switches to get onto the right track at Far Rockaway. At both Long Beach and Far Rockaway (and probably other smaller terminals, though I don't know which), the conductor has to jump out and manually position the switches. At Long Beach, there can be as many as three switches that need to be thrown to get on the right track.
I just saw the classic 1968 Steve McQueen movie "Bullitt" last night down at the campus cinema. They were actually able to get a 35mm print. The movie is set in San Francisco and there were many great short of cable cars. Now that I got the required transit bit out of the way all I can say it "OH MY GOD!" That car chase was so intense. The juiced the soundtrack and you could feel the power from the 68 Mustang and the Dodge Charger. It was just so intense to see McQueen driving along at speeds reaching 110 mph. Once you saw the bad guy put on his leather gloves and fasten his seatbets you knew you were in for a wild ride. The rest of the movie was just as good with sudden action and a final chase around the runways of the SF airport. I'm only posting these here because I want to encourage pople to go out and watch this movie and Steve McQueen in general and because I know tha a lot of older guys hang out here who might be familliar with Bullitt and can share their reactions.
In the recent History Channel show about "The French Connection", they discussed various movie car chases, and they said that the scenes in "Bullitt" were still the absolutel BEST car chase ever filmed.
Thoe only thing about that car chase, though, is that is was NOT done with much continuity. Of course, those who have never been to San Francisco would never notice. In most of the areas where the scenes for "Bullitt" were filmed, they are a couple miles from cable cars, like down around the Potrero District.
But then, it seems like eveyr movie of San Francisco, even if they are at the top of Twin Peaks, has to have cable car bells ringing. (In other words, New Yorkers, don't feel bad when they mess up the subway stuff in movies. NY is NOT alone....)
After "Bullitt" my next favorite car chase is in the movie "Seven-Ups" with Roy Scheider. My next favorite are the car chases out of the Metropark Parking Decks any evening,
Bullitt Great Movie, first time I ever heard the word Bulls*it spoken in a movie, no a days it would be mild
Yeah, the "Seven-Ups" had a nasty car chase scene where (I think) a car gets "decapitated" when it rams into the back of a truck.
One of my all-time favorite car-chase movies is "The Blues Brothers". Nothing can beat great music + great action!
BMTman
One of my all-time favorite car-chase movies is "The Blues Brothers".
While I also love that chase, it is quite clearly done for comic effect and it lacks the bone chilling suspence of Bullitt.
Yeah, but the car chase down the mall is classic...
-Hank
The whole movie is a classic!
I've been to that mall, it's on Roosevelt Road west of the city.
The mall doesn't exist any more... it was torn down after the filming of the movie (it had closed a year or so before the movie was filemed and was slated for demolition anyway). There's an office tower on the site now, IIRC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, and that was a REAL MALL that was totaled! Isn't it still standing today as some kind of vacant reminder of suburban sprall?
BMTman
No, it was torn down after the movie was filmed... IIRC there's an office tower on the site now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On the History Channel French Connection show they pointed out that the car chase scene in Bullitt was shot with traffic and pedestrians removed from the streets, but the French Connection chase, which was inspired by the Bullitt chase, was filmed on real live NY streets with people present.
Steve McQueen. What a man's man. My all time favorite actor. I have a big picture of him hanging in my bedroom. I cried the day he died in 1980, only 50 years old. I loved him best in "The Great Escape", my all time favorite movie. I have seen it 41 times now.
<< But then, it seems like eveyr movie of San Francisco, even if they are at the top of Twin Peaks, has to have cable car bells ringing. (In other words, New Yorkers, don't feel bad when they mess up the subway stuff in movies. NY is NOT alone....)>>
Ever notice how, on Law & Order, whenever the cops are out on the street you can hear in the background steel wheels screeching around a curve? It's pretty funny because 99% of the time, Briscoe and Green are nowhere near an El.
I hate to hurt your feelings, but the chase scene in Bullitt makes no geographic sense. I have lived in San Francisco for over 25 years and the chase if it were in New York would go from Little Italy with a quick right turn onto Pelham Parkway, then it would transition nicely onto the Clearview Exrpessway, then along Richmond Road in Staten Island before they made a turn through the Jamacia IND yars and finally a finsih at Floyd Bennett Field in 1:45!
The the speeds they were going (up to 110mph) I wouldn't put anything past them.
I love that movie. McQueen did his own driving during that classic scene, too.
Funny thing is that the actor who played the driver of the black 1968 Dodge Charger also appeared in "The French Connection" as an FBI man who argues with Gene Hackman, and also appeared as a criminal getaway driver in "The Seven-Ups" with Roy Scheider.
As the Beach Boys would say-----Round Round get around, I get around, get around round round round round round, I get around.
That reminds me. Does Lexus make a convertable?
How the hell should I know. I drive a Toyota Corolla, a 1986 Toyota Carolla. I'm really up to date, aren't I. My wife actually is encouraging me to buy myself a new car.
I was testing you to see if you had done something. Something that is linked to the Beach Boys song "I get around". Hopefully somebody will know the answer to this "question".
Did you count the flying hubcaps? Talk about your continuity!
Like the truck windsheild in Terminator 2.
-Hank :)
I just saw the classic 1968 Steve McQueen movie "Bullitt" last night down at the campus cinema. They were actually able to get a 35mm print. The movie is set in San Francisco and there were many great short of cable cars. Now that I got the required transit bit out of the way all I can say it "OH MY GOD!" That car chase was so intense.
Another movie with a San Francisco car-chase scene was 1996's The Rock. It would have been exciting, but for me it lost all credibility when a cable car crashed and exploded in a fireball. Since when do they have fuel tanks???
Apparently the "money train" also was gasoline powered IIRC. :)
Of course, in the amount of time THAT chase took, and the speed the cable car was going, the crash would have been in Palo Alto.....
It was actually done on Jones Street, which hasn't had cable cars in decades. The tracks were PAINTED onto the pavement!!! And the "cable car" int he chase was a rubber tired one -- so, YES,maybe it DID explode in a fireball, being driven by an internal combustion engine.
Two quick questions:
(1) Are the Amtrak Turbo trains finally in service on the Hudson line?
(2) If so, what are their scheduled departure/arrival times at Penn. Station?
They were being rebuilt, I don't know if Amtrak has accepted them, they might be out west testing at Pubelo.
If you're referring to the rebuilt Turbos, there was one southbound to NYC just after noon from Rensselaer ... so there's at least one of them running.
Looks like we'll be saying adios to Stern's. Corporate parent Federated Department Stores announced today that the Stern's name will be gone by August or thereabouts. Store fates are as follows:
Closing entirely - Roosevelt Field, Sunrise and Smith Haven malls, Valley Stream, Monmouth.
Closing for about a year for renovations, then converting to Bloomingdale's - Willowbrook, Bridgewater.
Converting to Macy's, but may close when leases expire - Atlantic Terminal, South Shore Mall, Toms River.
All remaining stores will be converted to Macy's.
Federated's announcement said nothing about the Manhattan Mall store. Presumably, the planned closure remains in effect.
It's interesting - I recently read some of the Times articles from the Gimbel's closing back in '82 (I think?). What was true then is only more true now: "full-service" department stores can't compete at the cheaper end of the market, since they're still a little more expensive than the big discounters because of a higher cost structure. In '82 it was K-mart and Bradlees, now it's Wal-mart and Costco, but the effect is the same: dead department stores.
Penney's will be next.
Sterns doesn't surprise me. In Bridgewater, I have increasingly over the last 5 years walked out in frustation repeatedly, and gone to Macy's.
JC Penney is already retrenching closing a lot of catalog stores, and a lot of catalog departments in Eckert Drug Stores.
I predict the next two mammoth failures, however, to be Home Depot and Sears. Sears is perpetually out of stock, with buyers who do not talk to retail floor people. Home Depot is growing too fast, their merchandise is increasingly tacky, and people walk out in frustartion and go to Ace to get good service and better quality merchandise.
I predict the next two mammoth failures, however, to be Home Depot and Sears. Sears is perpetually out of stock, with buyers who do not talk to retail floor people. Home Depot is growing too fast, their merchandise is increasingly tacky, and people walk out in frustartion and go to Ace to get good service and better quality merchandise.
I wouldn't worry about Sears just because they're perpetually out of stock. They've been that way for many many years :-) Besides, they are by far the nation's biggest appliance dealer, with little competition on a nationwide scale (Circuit City's stopped selling major appliances, and Best Buy has a rather limited selection).
Now Home Depot, that's an interesting prediction ... you may be onto something. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to their expansions; stores are being opened so close to one another that they almost certainly must be cannibalizing one another's sales. And the stores seem to be getting more and more disorganized and the help more and more brain dead.
They've killed Pergament and some of the smaller commercial suppliers. Home Depot will likely need to retrench in a few years, and some stores will likely be closed, but I doubt they will be holding OOB sales soon.
Speaking of retail, an Ames truck lost its roof on Queens Blvd going through the Woodhaven Blvd tunnel. Never thought I'd be able to see inside a box trailer from the top down.
-Hank
Home Depot just won a battle a couple of years ago against Builder's Square, but has Lowe's to compete against in the big-box battle of hardware stores around most of the country. In terms of specific niche battles among the big box outlets (Wal Mart-vs.-K Mart, Barnes and Noble-vs.-Border's, etc.) this is probably the most even match-up financially at this time.
Home Depot just won a battle a couple of years ago against Builder's Square, but has Lowe's to compete against in the big-box battle of hardware stores around most of the country. In terms of specific niche battles among the big box outlets (Wal Mart-vs.-K Mart, Barnes and Noble-vs.-Border's, etc.) this is probably the most even match-up financially at this time.
Lowe's is building its first metro area store at Exit 64 of the Long Island Expressway in Medford. It's only about a mile from where I live. Home Depot has four stores in the area and is building a fifth only a few miles from the Lowe's site. Needless to say, the results should be interesting.
Home Depot opened a well-patronized store on the eastern end of Bridgwater, NJ, near Bound Brook. They are now opening one up on the west end of the township. That didn't stop me a year ago from having to drive 33 miles to one in Phillipsburg to buy a couple of bathroom sinks because Bridgwater was out of stock while their computer said they had 13, and the morons would do nothing to adjust/correct/order inventory when I pointed it out. They would only ask me stupid questions like what is the SKU number. I asked the local ACE franchise if HD has hurt them, and said initially yes, but then customers came back because of disgust at the local HD.
Remember WT Grant "City" and Bohack "Village" ? The debt service from fast growth and crappy service is what put them out of business.
Lowes is constructing a store directly opposite Home Depot on US1 in West Windsor (Princeton). I would go there instead. You don't need to wash your hands after coming home from that store.
Lowes is constructing a store directly opposite Home Depot on US1 in West Windsor (Princeton). I would go there instead. You don't need to wash your hands after coming home from that store.
Heh heh, the funniest thing is that it's true. Granted, no one's going to expect a Home Depot to be as clean and esthetically pleasing as, say, Williams-Sonoma or a Brooks Brothers. But they could at least try to keep the places sorta almost semi-clean ...
Lowes is constructing a store directly opposite Home Depot on US1 in West Windsor (Princeton). I would go there instead. You don't need to wash your hands after coming home from that store.
Heh heh, the funniest thing is that it's true. Granted, no one's going to expect a Home Depot to be as clean and esthetically pleasing as, say, Williams-Sonoma or a Brooks Brothers. But they could at least try to keep the places sorta almost semi-clean ...
One more thought about Home Depot. It's possible that the, er, intellectual limitations of their employees are related to today's generally favorable economic conditions. Here's why. During the recession of the early 1990's (I don't believe the company was around during the recession of the early 1980's), Home Depot attracted many skilled tradesmen who couldn't find better work. Today, however, those men are out working construction, and Home Depot is competing with other retailers for the same employee pool even though its workers should have higher skill levels than those in most retailers.
Lowes is constructing a store directly opposite Home Depot on US1 in West Windsor (Princeton). I would go there instead. You don't need to wash your hands after coming home from that store.
My only experience with having both stores in the same market is in Raleigh, North Carolina, where Lowe's is the dominant force (they are based in western North Carolina) and Home Depot is the interloper. Lowe's prices are higher, their help is even less intelligent than Home Depot, and the only reason their store is cleaner is because it has a lot fewer customers. Their lumber seems to be of slightly higher quality, but much of their other merchandise is either exactly the same or (in the case of specialty light bulbs in particular - I have some unusual light fixtures in my home in NC) of lower quality.
We'll see what happens here in New Jersey. There's a Home Depot about three miles from my house and another one within ten, and two Lowe's scheduled to open within the next year in the same areas (the one Lowe's will be walking distance from my house if they get the zoning approved... hopefully they won't, since they plan on flooding the area with light all night... unfortunately the sheep voted in the pro-development slate on the town board this year)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do the stores pay a stock tax in the east,because here in Oregon and Washingtion,when the shlves are out of an item most times they have to wait for another shipment because of the stock tax they have to pay.it still drives me crazy and i've been here for thirty years now.
Never heard of a stock tax in NY. You mean there are taxes NY doesn't have??
Never heard of a stock tax in NY. You mean there are taxes NY doesn't have??
Yep. New York is one of the relatively few states that does not tax personal property. And that can make a big difference - for instance, Connecticut residents have to pay motor vehicle property taxes, which in some towns can be several hundred dollars a year for an ordinary family car.
By the way, the posting to which you responded cited the "stock tax" in Washington and Oregon as a reason why stores in those states can be poorly stocked. That isn't correct; while Washington and Oregon have personal property taxes, both states exempt merchants' inventories of goods held for sale.
Strange though, no coverage on the news.
Why three Macy's stores in Paramus?
Yeah Paramus has so many stores it makes the Nassau "Hub" look like a sleepy downtown. :-0
And they're all closed on Sundays because of the sybaritic "Blue Laws" passed by the municipality(?).
Yeah those Blue Laws in Bergen are stupid. Why they still have them is beyond me, just a bunch of small-time folks in the Bergen government I guess.
Good thing the Willowbrook Mall in Wayne isn't too far from Paramus, it's about 20 minutes away I guess.
I don't think they have Blue Laws in Wayne.
Yeah those Blue Laws in Bergen are stupid. Why they still have them is beyond me, just a bunch of small-time folks in the Bergen government I guess.
County voters have supported the Blue Laws on several occasions. I highly doubt that the motivations are religious; indeed, Bergen County probably has a lower percentage of Christians than most suburban counties due to its large Jewish and Asian populations. More likely, the county residents probably like having stores closed on Sundays to get a respite from the heavy traffic that plagues many parts of the county.
I suspect that increasing competition from the Palisades Mall will weaken support for the Blue Laws, however.
It has NOTHING to do with counties, it is a town thing. The town, in this case, being Paramus, NJ. If you had as many shooping centers as they do and lived in the town you would probably support "blue laws" too.
Peace,
ANDEE
Most of the people living there now came after the stores, so they shouldn't complain on their choice of residence.
And Paramus is not a town, it's a borough.
>>>And Paramus is not a town, it's a borough. <<<
Pick, pick, pick, I lived ther for 2 years, you know what I mean.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>Most of the people living there now came after the stores...<<<
You ever consider that maybe that's one of the reasons they moved there.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why would they move there for the stores, and then complain about those same stores?
NOT that they moved there for the stores but that they moved there because the stores are closed on Sunday.
Peace,
ANDEE
Blue laws are often supported by small merchants, who argue that they need a day off, while the big corporations can run all seven days with different staff. The small merchants want to make the big guys close down one day a week too.
Of course, small merchants could pay at least ONE employee on the books, at a decent wage, with benefits if they wanted to, then trust them to operate the cash register, recording ALL the sales. Somehow, however, this is a problem.
In actualality, small merchants in Paramus are allowed to be open on Sunday.
Peace,
ANDEE
Full-scale blue laws starting biting the dust around 15 years ago, when the Big Box retailing business first picked up steam aroundthe country. Many states, including those in the Bible Belt, kept their bans on Sunday sales before 12 noon, but opened afternoon and (at least) early evening hours up to retailing.
One of the main arguments was that because there were more double-income families where the wife no longer stayed home to take care of the kids, she didn't have time to go shopping Monday through Friday, and this would make things easier on her and her family. Of course, it made things easier on the big retailers, too, but that's not the way they usually lobbied for it before the various state and local governing bodies...
"Of course, small merchants could pay at least ONE employee on the books, at a decent wage, with benefits if they wanted to, then trust them to operate the cash register, recording ALL the sales. Somehow, however, this is a problem."
I don't know about down there but up here in Mass. all retail employees must get paid time and a half on Sunday.
(I don't know about down there but up here in Mass. all retail employees must get paid time and a half on Sunday.)
Not a bad law, as long as Jews get the same deal on Saturday, and Moslems on Friday. Frankly, we've all got too much stuff, and a day off from shopping is probably a good thing. Then again, Costco is crowded enough on Saturday as it is.
Sybarites.
MAYBE...but as I've stated before I lived in the town (borough) for 2 years and the relief, trafficwise, on Sunday makes it worth it.
Peace,
ANDEE
It IS kinda neat to be able to CRUISE down 17 on a Sunday,without all the jam-ups near Paramus Park and GSP.......
as I've stated before I lived in the town (borough) for 2 years and the relief, trafficwise, on Sunday makes it worth it.
Which is exactly why county voters support the closing laws.
Can you even go to a supermarket or drugstore on Sunday in Paramus? I sure hope so, otherwise that town has real problems.
Well that's kind of the NIMBY thinking. They want their cake, then when they get it they complain about it. There's just no pleasing these people. I like Paramus but I'd never want to live there, because of blue laws. There'd be nothing to do on Sunday (for a single person that must suck).
Also not having electric rail service to NYC, that is an even bigger problem.
Well then, can you say "NIMBY"?
It has NOTHING to do with counties, it is a town thing. The town, in this case, being Paramus, NJ. If you had as many shooping centers as they do and lived in the town you would probably support "blue laws" too.
The Sunday-closing law applies everywhere in Bergen County. It passed the last referendum a few years ago.
Sorry...wrong.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh my God! I knew this was going to happen. Looks like the closure of the Broadway Mall will be imminent.
This is definately a bad sign. Looks like those NJ malls will be harmed the least, LI malls are really going to suffer, especially Broadway and Smith Haven. Smith Haven could use a Bloomingdale's but I guess Federated is only interested in putting those in wealthy malls.
Smith Haven could use a Bloomingdale's but I guess Federated is only interested in putting those in wealthy malls.
Federated, like any other major corporation, is interested in profit, and profit means putting its stores where their customers are. Put a high-end department store in a low-income area and it won't make nearly the profit as it would in a high-income area, if it even makes a profit at all. And the opposite is true as well - you don't see the check-cashing services or rent-to-own stores locating in high-income areas because they wouldn't have customers there either, whereas in the low-income areas they can make a tidy profit.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Smith Haven could use a Bloomingdale's but I guess Federated is only interested in putting those in wealthy malls.
Federated, like any other major corporation, is interested in profit, and profit means putting its stores where their customers are. Put a high-end department store in a low-income area and it won't make
nearly the profit as it would in a high-income area, if it even makes a profit at all.
A high-end department store actually might be able to succeed at Smith Haven. Indeed, the Simon Corp. mentioned Neiman-Marcus and Nordstrom's as possible replacements for Stern's, although I would suspect that the Roosevelt Field mall will snag Neiman-Marcus. Smith Haven draws from a big area, both in geographic and population terms, including some fairly upscale areas. In addition, the existing store mix has been upgraded considerably in the last couple of years. One of the people at Whitehall's Jewelers told my wife and I a while back that Simon is very demanding when it comes to store appearance and quality.
Filling the Stern's space at Smith Haven might be somewhat complicated by the fact that it's in a rather out-of-the-way location. Most cars entering the mall do so at the other end.
I wouldn't call the area around Smith Haven low income. It's a blue collar middle income area. And there are the areas of Smithtown and Stony Brook which have wealthier people, and new upscale housing is being built in these areas.
I could picture a Bloomingdale's in that mall. Fortunoff has also thought of expanding to that area.
Smith Haven is loosing it's wealthy customers to Walt Whitman, a Bloomingdales could lure them back. But then again, Simon owns both malls, so it's a win-win situation no matter what happens.
Smith Haven is loosing it's wealthy customers to Walt Whitman, a Bloomingdales could lure them back. But then again, Simon owns both malls, so it's a win-win situation no matter what happens.
Walt Whitman Mall seems no more upscale than Smith Haven. It might have a Bloomingdale's, but it lacks a food court and is hard to reach thanks to Route 110 traffic.
Huh?? Walt Whitman has in addition to Bloomingdale's, Saks, Lord and Taylor, and of course Macy's. It does lack a food court, that was part of the agreement with those damn NIMBY's that halted the renovation.
The mall is upscale, they got stores like BEBE and botiques in there. Also it looks fancy, much fancier in appearance than Smith Haven.
JCPenney is going under, too. And don't ask me how or why, but the geniuses at Dayton-Hudson Corp., parent company of Target, have announced that all of its Target stores will be renamed and rebadged as "Marshall Fields" , since they claim that the MF brand name has more recongnition value. Kinda like K-Mart renaming all their stores "Macy's" or something like that; a rose by any other name. . .
P.S.: Its sayanara to Bradlees, and quite a few e-tailers as well-"a sign of the times" (no pun intended) and advance warning of the so-called "economic slowdown" to come? (read major RECESSION), the "R" word sitting politicians hate to use. God help us all, Thomas:>
JCPenney is going under, too. And don't ask me how or why, but the geniuses at Dayton-Hudson Corp., parent company of Target, have announced that all of its Target stores will be renamed and rebadged as "Marshall Fields" , since they claim that the MF brand name has more recongnition value. Kinda like K-Mart renaming all their stores "Macy's" or something like that; a rose by any other name. . .
P.S.: Its sayanara to Bradlees, and quite a few e-tailers as well-"a sign of the times" (no pun intended) and advance warning of the so-called "economic slowdown" to come? (read major RECESSION), the "R" word sitting politicians hate to use. God help us all, Thomas:>
Where in the world did you hear that about Target??? What actually happened is that the parent company changed its name to Target Corp. from Dayton-Hudson, in recognition of the fact that the Target name had become far better-known. The company's department stores will continue to operate under their present names.
I would caution against drawing any macro-economic lessons from the recent series of store closings. Retailing is a tough business regardless of overall economic conditions. Being a regional chain, Bradlees (and Caldor's, before it) simply couldn't compete with the big three nationwide discounters - K-Mart, Target and Wally World. Montgomery Ward had been struggling for years, unable to find a suitable market niche. And Federated just announced the closing of Stern's mainly because little or nothing differentiated the chain from the much-better-known Macy's.
Points well taken. It was actually my wife that told me about the supposed name change FROM target when it was actually TO Target. Please excuse me for a minute while I go bitch her out. . No, but seriously, if Macroeconomic lessons and forecasts cannot be drawn from the fickle retail industry, then they surely can from the fed's own prime lending rates being raised or lowered, as well as the other national unemployment, average real wages and otherconsumer confidence indicators, and I repeat, we are headed into RECESSION(!)
Peace, Thomas:>
"...the geniuses at Dayton-Hudson Corp., parent company of Target, have announced that all of its Target stores will be renamed and rebadged as "Marshall Fields", since they claim that the MF brand name has more recongnition value."
"What actually happened is that the parent company changed its name to Target Corp. from Dayton-Hudson, in recognition of the fact that the Target name had become far better-known. The company's department stores will continue to operate under their present names."
You're both wrong! Target isn't renaming ALL its stores to Marshall Fields, nor is it leaving its department stores under their present names. The "Target" stores will remain "Target", but all of the company's traditional department stores (Marshall Field's, Dayton's, Hudson's) ARE going to be renamed as "Marshall Field's" stores. The story was in the Chicago Sun-Times at: http://www.suntimes.com/output/business/field13.html
Is Marshall's the same as Marshall Fields ?
Is Marshall's the same as Marshall Fields ?
No.
Marshall Field is a fairly upscale department store chain. I believe it started in Chicago and was acquired by Target (nee Dayton Hudson Co.) in relatively recent years. Marshall's is and has always been a discount clothing chain centered in the northeast. It was originally owned by CVS (which was at the time called Melville Corp.) and now is owned by TJX Corp., which also operates TJ Maxx.
Believe it or not, Hills is still in business in central New York, or at least was a couple of years ago when I was there. But it is not a supermarket like we remember, but a tacky version of Target of Kmart.
(I would caution against drawing any macro-economic lessons from the recent series of store closings. Retailing is a tough business regardless of overall economic conditions.)
When we did the Citywide Industry Study at City Planning, I posited "Engels Law Revisited" as a reason for the decline of manufacturing. Engels Law said that as people become richer and more productive, they spend a lower share of their income on food, and agriculture becomes a smaller share of the economy even if it is dynamic and productive. We have a 100 year decline in agricultural employment, and agriculture as a share of GDP, to prove it.
Just as at some point people have enough food and start to spend on other things, I said, at some point people (even Americans) have enough stuff and start to spend on services. Well, since it was my idea, it was edited out of the final report. But a decade later, my boss noted that "stuff is cheap" and its hard to make a profit making OR selling it. As productivity increases prices fall, but people aren't using the income freed up to buy more stuff.
Hence, as I also predicted, the current slowdown is hitting areas that rely on manufacturing, Walmarts, and McDonalds for their economy. Did you see the article about fiscal distress in the soiuthern United States.
Another reason to hate New York. When were poor, they hate us because poverty is the wages of sin and sloth, and its all our fault, so we're on our own. When THEY'RE poor, it just shows that we're all in it together, and NYC doesn't have legitimate needs.
Just as at some point people have enough food and start to spend on other things, I said, at some point people (even Americans) have enough stuff and start to spend on services. Well, since it was my idea, it was edited out of the final report. But a decade later, my boss noted that "stuff is cheap" and its hard to make a profit making OR selling it. As productivity increases prices fall, but people
aren't using the income freed up to buy more stuff.
Hence, as I also predicted, the current slowdown is hitting areas that rely on manufacturing, Walmarts, and McDonalds for their economy. Did you see the article about fiscal distress in the southern United States.
Exactly. There's only so much "stuff" people need. Sooner or later, saturation points come into play.
We can see that right now with the reduction in the growth rate of PC sales (depsite what media reports would have us believe, there is no actual decline in sales, just a slowdown in the rate of increase). It's not hard to see why this happened. Far from being a novelty, home PC's have become almost a commodity - most households that are ever going to have them, already do. More and more sales today are upgrades rather than first-time purchases, and it's a lot harder to maintain fast sales growth under those circumstances. True, there are other new forms of "stuff" on the market, such as DVD players and PDA's, but they don't cost as much as PC's and have less impact on the overall economy.
I just can't keep up with all these changes!!!
New World Order!
avid
I'm going to miss the Stern's in Monmouth Mall... same merchandise as Macy's at the other end, prices about 20% lower. I buy most of my shirts and sweaters there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I never had luck in Stern's. I did like Stern's a few years ago, but lately I've found the selection poor, prices not much less than Macy's, and the customer service to be almost non-existant.
If anyone's interested, details can be found on the UTU site:
http://www.utu.org/News/Wash-UpD/Hi-Speed/MNPG-HI-SPD.htm
Say, while the old Bombardier/Alsthom assembly line is chugging away at full capacity anyway, why can't MTA invest in Acela Trainsets for it rather further reach destinations, thus halving the current en route transit time or even more? -Interestingly, Thomas T.S.E.:>!!
Too many intermediate stops for high speed; and, even if you skipped some of the stops, too many other, slower trains in the way.
Yes, the entire system would have to be either 100% Acela, or 100% conventional like it is now--they couldn't use faster moving trains on the same tracks as slower-moving ones, as they'd obviously overtake eachother very quickly. Could MNRR and LIRR simply build additional express trackage dedicated only to acela trainsets? I know it would cost $$$ but perhaps they could make part or most of it back in the form of higher express fares. The MNRR and LIRR lines would in effect beome "skip-stops" requiring commuters to transfer to regular trains to reach smaller, less traveled stations. Peace, Thomas:>
On MNRR (New Haven Division) there is no room for additional trackage.
Ironically, there WAS room on the west side of the line from Port Chester to about half-way between Larchmont and Mamaroneck. The old New York and New England (a remanent is the Dyre Ave. Line in the Bronx) ran there, giving a six track layout. However, some bridges have been shortened and some commercial buildings now encroach on this area.
At rush hour, all four tracks are essentially full from Stamford to GCT. Furthermore, the only stations having express track platforms are New Haven and Stamford (when completed).
There would be room on the Hudson Division (if they haven't sold it off). Except through Marble Hill, that was a four track line; now it is down to two. North of Mount Vernon West, the Harlem Division is essentially a two line track to White Plains.
Point taken about the New Haven but you're talking about the New York, Westchester, and Boston right of way.
THere a great little book in the T.A. Mueseum for about $16.95.
i forgot the Author, but it has a pale green cover.
Check it out.
avid
N.Y.W. & B. is New York, WESTCHESTER, & Boston.
Since it never reached Boston, it was also called New York, Westchester & Back.
The Hudson line is still a 4-track line from Spuyten Duyvil at least through Yonkers and maybe beyond.
It's 4 track all the way up to Croton-Harmon, with one express track with no 3rd rail. Tarrytown only has an express platform on the southbound side.
The problem of faster trains getting stuck behind slower ones is a big problem but keep in mind it's more a factor of how close the station stops are and the condition of the track. Amtrak's Acela will be sharing trackage with seven(*) "conventional" railroads between Washington and Boston and managing to still get some good improvement.
* (MARC, SEPTA, NJT, LIRR, MNRR, SLE, and MBTA)
How much of the NEC does MBTA use?
At least someone in the Senate is smarter than the rail critics who think rail should pay its own way while highways get all the free money they want.
Supporters of the rail bonds agreed they still faced tough opposition from critics who doubt passenger rail can ever pay its own way.
But Texas Republican Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison said highways and the aviation system received vastly greater amounts of public money.
"There is not a transportation mode in the United States...that isn't subsidized in some way," Hutchison said.
I haven't seen anything about this yet in the New York papers, but it was in Wednedsay's Dallas Morning News.
Amtrak may be adding the service due as much to their package express plans as to any sharp jump in the demand for cross-country rail service, but at least they are adding service.
Amtrak planning New York to Dallas route.
In addition to the new "Crescent Star" (NYC-to-Fort Worth), the current Amtrak Travel Planner indicates other proposed services:
* New service from Boston to Portland.
* New service from San Antonio south through Laredo, TX to Monterrey, Mexico (maybe a reroute of the Texas Eagle or an extension of the Heartland Flyer.)
* Revived service from Houston to Dallas (maybe a revival of the Houston leg of the Texas Eagle or an extension of the Heartland Flyer).
* New service from Fort Worth to El Paso through northern Texas. (Would this be a rerouted Sunset Limited, a rerouted Texas Eagle, an extension of the new Crescent Star, or a "Texas Crosstown" of sorts?)
* Revived service from Los Angeles to Las Vegas (idea: call it The Gambler and have Kenny Rogers advertise it).
* New service from Chicago to Des Moines. (The Cornhusker?)
* New service from Chicago to Fond du Lac, WI.
..
They've been dicking around on LA-Vega$ sevice for YEARS......why not just revive the Desert Wind section of the California Zephyr??? Give folks thru cars from Chicago at least......
'cause there is a miniscule market. That section of the Zephyr rarely booked out. conversely, short haul gamblers from LA are a real market. The problem is that the travel times are too long in current conditions.
The Desert Wind section was the weakest of the 3 west of Salt Lake City/Ogden. It did all right in the summer, but people were using it to get to LA, not Las Vegas. Amtrak HQ has end-point mentality, and to them the DW and Pioneer looked redundant to the Chief and Empire Builder.
The Cresent Star will seperate from the normal Cresent train in Missippi or Alabama and then run over the KSC route to Dallas. Its a very popular route for NS intermodal trains.
Apparently, part of the reason for doing it is because the Sunset Limited will be rerouted through Texas, going from Houston to Dallas-Fort Worth instead of to San Antonio, which will allow that area to become Amtrak's southwestern 'hub' to improve both passenger connections and rail package express service. For someone wanting to do a cross-country rail trip from New York to L.A., it will give them the option of going one way via the norther route through Chicago and the other way via the southern route, which they can do now, but have to drop all the way down to New Orleans to accomplish.
Also in Amtrak's pipe dream is EVENTUAL thru Viewliner sleepers/coaches NY-LA....
I don't think so. For one thing, there aren't enough single level cars to extend thru cars to the coast; they can barely pull Dallas off, and they will denude the Crescent consist to New Orleans to do that. Furthermore, they would have to couple single level cars ahead of the Superliner dorm car, which is a private party car for the crew, and they don't want passengers schlepping thru it. This train is motivated by mail, express, and politics (Mayor Smith, Senator Hutchinson), period.
What would the name of the KCS train that covered that portion of the route ?
Today while railfanning at Grand Central on ther 4 5 6 level, I happen to notice 1 set of R 62As #s on the 6 line car #s 1661-1670 with Red Stickers on them. I guess these are now Ex Pelham cars. 2 R33 ML sets were there on the 6 borrowed from the 4 line. 1 st consist was 9227 9226 9238 9239 9292 9293 9223 9222 9269 9268. The second consist was 9263 9262 9297 9296 9265 9264 9294 9295 9260 9261. after I left Grand Central, I decided to see what was going on with the LIRR and the 7 line. The LIRR seemed usual nothing exciting except fopr the 2 "protect engines" passing by going back to Jamaica. #s 102 & 104. Soon after they passed by, C I T (Coney Island Transfer passed by with 5 singles and 3 pairs. car #s are as follows from South to North. 9323 9343 9330 *9546 *9547 9322 9443 9442 9749 9748 9315 was the last car. *Please note that 9546 and 9547 now have corona stickers applied to them.
Well it looks like it's not my imagination, there are more homeless in the subway, and in shelters, just as many as 10 years ago.
Daily News Express had an article, and this got widespread TV coverage. One homeless person summed it up very well-
[Outside Penn Station this morning, Sheryl Matthews, who stays at
a women's shelter on 30th Street, said landlords have become too
greedy. "See all these people, they're all rich," she said.
"Poor people don't have a chance."]
I agree. I work on the M line and we have regular homeless that ride around. I've noticed a few new ones in recent weeks.
I am also seeing homeless on lines that have not had homeless such as the J line Elevated, N in Brooklyn, A in Brooklyn, 5 in the Bronx, 2 in the Bronx.
As far as "Women with children" those I have seen are males with a very low number of females (no children).
[As far as "Women with children" those I have seen are males with a very low number of females (no children).]
Probably just some dedicated railfans who don't know when to leave the system and take care of their personal hygiene...;-)
BMTman
no homeless forA train? are you serious, ? you obviopusly dont ride the line, its Mecca For the homeless, duhhhh, cause itsa long ride, damn people before you post know what the f*** you posting about.
.
that's pretty sad.
But note that the rise in homelessness is concentrated among women with children. Homeless single adults, the kind one is most likely to see on the subway, have declined as a percentage of the total homeless population.
[But note that the rise in homelessness is concentrated among women with children. Homeless single adults, the kind one is most likely to see on the subway, have declined as a percentage of the total homeless population.]
John, please see my other post in this thread...
BMTman
the 1996 ""newt gingrich / bill clinton"" ( welfare deform cut-off bill ) is slowly but sure is at the real cause in the rise in homelessness (especially with children) & you have not seen nothing yet folks! now that prez. selected by the supreme court 'BUSH' is in & with welfare cut off ...
Expect nationwide to see homeless & especially amoung CHILDREN & WOMEN to rise higher than you have ever seen ! ( not just on & in subway stations & in subway cars ) !!!
Nationwide the chickens will come home to roost high & higher under & unemployment
a big recession maybe a depression & those who need welfare & other public social services will be told to seek the private sector which will not be there at all !!!!
& i dont care how many NEGATIVE hits i will get after responding to this post!! Prez "BUSH" will make hoover look like childs play !! we will all sleep on the subway sooner than you might think!! out west we will be BLACKED OUT ( no power ) !!! cant run rail public transit without any power !! now aint that a bitch !!
OFF topic
ON TOPIC...& right on the money!!
you just cant handle the truth !!
The best way to stop homelessness is by alowing more homes to be built. this can be done by cutting through the red tape.
i agree with that !! & they have to be affordable for working classes of folk as well.....
nice post thank you !
it does not matter if the homes that are built are affordable to the working class. there is only so much demand for luxury housing if more is built then some of the older luxury housing will take a step down. if that happens some of the next level down housing will take a step down. this will lead to the indict creation of affordable housing requiring that x percent of new housing be affordable on discourages new housing and acutely leads to a lack of affordable housing.
Libertarian (Anarchist) economic theoeries sound just as "pat" as those of communism AND ARE JUST AS WRONG.
i will go for whatever WORKS food clothing shelter is a human right ! owning a car van truck driving etc may not be !
however soon the homelessnes will go up very high in the years to come, & you wont just see this in rail transit stations !
The best way to stop homelessness is by alowing more homes to be built. this can be done by cutting through the red tape.
One thing that should be done is to ABOLISH ZONING.
"One thing that should be done is to ABOLISH ZONING."
I would not say that zone should be abolished but the regulations should be substantially loosened. zoning is the only thing that stops some undesirable industries out of residential neighborhoods.
Do you expect to be taken seriously with that socialist clap-trap? Who would pay for all the new housing? Surely not the rich liberals who support idiotic ideas like that. And don't hand me the garbage about people trading up and their old homes going to the homeless. I don't intend to trade up at this stage in my life. Nor do I intend to have for a neighbor, a family who last lived in the back seat of a '64 Olds. If you want to give these peoples homes, give them yours. BUT DON'T DO IT ON MY BACK!!!
When you do this, and have both checking and savings accounts, which one is deducted from? I wanted to try and see, but I have too much Metrocard value as it is, although I think I lost a $19.50 card (now you see why I was hesitant to combine cards).
It's automatically sucked out of your checking account. Also you can only purchase one MetroCard at a time. Any subsequent immediate transactions will be denied to reduce fraud.
The brochures say two.
What if one has only a savings or money market account?
Depends on how your bank card is set up on the bank end. Generally, machines that don't give you the choice of an account default to checking. If you have only a savings account, you can't use it unless the bank computer has a dummy checking account set up as well.
-Hank
For 18 minutes?
What the official flyers say:" There is a two transaction limit per day." Of course you can use a credit card.
I've found that there is a four card/day limit on a credit card, at the same station. If you go to another station, you can get another four, etc.
All ATM cards have a default account (if there are multiple accounts linked) determined by the rules established by the card issuer.
Saw an ad on Fox. Looks like an episode in a subway tunnel. Any idea where that is.
Any idea where that is
Is that a statement or a question?
Anyway, it's a set in Los Angeles, no doubt about it.
So they didn't use a real tunnel???
Computers I guess do the work. Back in the old days they did really film in subways I guess.
There are special effects, and then there's just some metal, wood, plastic and paint. No need to reinvent the wheel to build a simple tunnel.
And back in the old days they did NOT. Back in the old days it was just as easy to build a set, but thanks to lighting and more primitive film, more difficult to film on location in a tunnel.
Not to mention the fact that trains still have to run, and tunnels can be dangerous, not the place for a film crew.
Well the tunnel I saw in the clip for Xfiles looked alot like the 63rd street line. I think it even had the old style (white bar) flourescent lights.
It reminded me of WMATA, at least the part which appeared to be from a railfan window (showing a track crossover). It could also be LA's subway. I'll be watching Sunday anyway... It's probably a mixture of their own set, footage from actual subway, and computer generation.
Anyway, it's a set in Los Angeles, no doubt about it.
I believe the X Files is filmed in Vancouver, although it's possible the tunnel scene could have used the Los Angeles set used for Money Train (if it's still in existence).
X-Files moved filming from Vancouver to Los Angeles after David Duchovny married Tea Leoni.
It was probably filmed in Los Angeles or thereabouts, but the episode takes place in the Boston subway, presumably in a tunnel that was recently built along with the "Big Dig." for more information, see http://www.thexfiles.com/main_flash.html
- Lyle Goldman
I read the press release from the web site. The good news is alot of Stern's stores are being converted to Macy's, most importantly, Flushing and Broadway Mall. This will be a big boost for Flushing, and also for the Broadway Mall.
The Stern's store at the Willowbrook mall will become Bloomingdales.
Unfortunately, for the embattled Sunrise Mall in Massapequa, that Stern's will be closing, as well Smith Haven mall. Roosevelt Field store will also be closed. This may free up space for the Island's first Neiman Marcus which has been eyeing LI for some time.
It will sure be nice having a real department store (Macy's) in Flushing. Stern's is a failure and I'm glad it's being closed.
For the full story visit http://www.federated-fds.com
Link to press release of Manhattan Mall Stern's closing
Link to closing all of Sterns
I pulled out my 1964 Midtown map again, and was wondering, what currently stands on the 42nd Street side of the old Stern's store on 42nd and 6th (NW corner). The 43rd Street side is occupied by a white "tower in a plaza" and the actual NE corner which consists of the HBO building was not part of the store, what's east of there along 42?
We're really getting far afield here, but is the Pennsylvania Hotel on the north or south side of 32nd? Was it ever called the Statler Hilton for a brief period?
We're really getting far afield here, but is the Pennsylvania Hotel on the north or south side of 32nd? Was it ever called the Statler Hilton for a brief period?
North side.
Dunno about the Statler Hilton name, but it was called the Penta for a while.
I pulled out my 1964 Midtown map again, and was wondering, what currently stands on the 42nd Street side of the old Stern's store on
42nd and 6th (NW corner).
First off, it was the between 5th & 6th (close to 6th) which would place it on the NE corner).
There's an entrance from the Flushing 5th Ave Station on the north side of 42nd St. That's where the old Sterns store stood.
This sounds close to the CUNY grad center site.
I thought Sterns was on 23rd Street, between 5th and 6th.
Yes, I confused E with W.
It will sure be nice having a real department store (Macy's) in Flushing. Stern's is a failure and I'm glad it's being closed.
I hate to be a spoil sport but they are the same store operating under different names. They have the same ownership, same supply chains and same merchandise.
The current spate of chain store closings would indicate that there might be a curse of bigness for department stores. It may well be that buyers and managers have to me more attuned to local patrons' whims than is possible through centralized backroom operations.
Unfortunately, for the embattled Sunrise Mall in Massapequa, that Stern's will be closing, as well Smith Haven mall. Roosevelt Field store will also be closed. This may free up space for the Island's first Neiman Marcus which has been eyeing LI for some time.
I wouldn't characterize the Sunrise Mall as "embattled." Last time we were there, about four or five months ago, it had very few vacant spaces. Its main deficiency is the lack of a food court - although the fish pond was pretty cool.
The Stern's site at Smith Haven is somewhat awkwardly located, being at a part of the mall through which relatively few people enter. I suspect that the closing won't have too many bad effects on the mall itself. Business at Smith Haven seems very good. A number of new stores have opened or will open soon, and there are only a couple of small vacancies remaining. And Stern's itself never seemed to do well.
I don't get to Sunrise that often, so I guess things there may have improved.
Yeah the Stern's end of the Smith Haven Mall is weak, but without Stern's there it will get weaker.
I guess the malls will be alright, as long as there aren't any other major store closings.
Oddly, they're converting the Sterns at the Woodbridge mall into a Macy's, when the Menlo Park Macy's is barely 5 miles away.
THis will be the 3rd time in recent memory that Woodbridge has had a department store depart. First was Orbachs/Steinbachs to Lord and Taylor, then A&S to Sears, and now Stern's to Macy's.
-Hank
First was Orbachs/Steinbachs to Lord and Taylor, then A&S to Sears, and now Stern's to Macy's.
Well, A&S was also a Federated store, and most of them became Stern's, so it's logical that they closed it rather than convert it... was there any kind of relationship between Orbachs/Steinbachs and Lord & Taylor?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>...and most of them became Stern's, <<<
Most became Macy*s
>>>... was there any kind of relationship between Orbachs/Steinbachs and Lord & Taylor? <<<
No
Peace,
ANDEE
The pattern seems to be, at least in NY, that the Stern's that Federated converted from A&S are the ones to close. In NJ, they will become Bloomingdales, which makes them totally useless for most of us.
In NJ, they will become Bloomingdales, which makes them totally useless for most of us.
Why?
Think of the customers of bloomingdales, and then, think of the crowd stern's serves
Think of the customers of bloomingdales, and then, think of the crowd stern's serves
Thinking of the to-be-closed Stern's in the Smith Haven mall, the very word "crowds" is wholly inappropriate. Maybe if the cashiers were handing out $100 bills, they might have gotten a few customers into the store ... nah, probably not.
They are outrageously expensive.
The pattern seems to be, at least in NY, that the Stern's that Federated converted from A&S are the ones to close. In NJ, they will become Bloomingdales, which makes them totally useless for most of us.
The Monmouth Mall Stern's was an A&S; of course, Macy's is in the same mall, at a better location although with less square footage I believe. The Stern's at Seaview Square closed about three years ago, its sales hurt by the problems with that mall in general (the mall is now undergoing a major demolition and conversion to a big-box strip) and by its proximity to Monmouth. The local rumor mill is already speculating that Sears (one of the two remaining stores on the Seaview Square property) will move up to Monmouth and take over the Stern's location; another rumor has Nordstrom's interested (there isn't one anywhere near here).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does any one know how many times the subway has played a major role in the show Law and Order? It seem like 1 or 2 a season at least.
No idea... I'm usually too busy lusting over Angie Harmon to notice. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
You know she's gone one eye bigger than the other?
-Hank
Best show on T.V. (subjective opinion of course)!
I miss Adam.
My mom really misses that bald D.A. guy. I was missing Curtis, but Greene is getting better. Law and Order SVU on the otherhand really needs less order and more law.
I liked the VERY early years of "Law & Order" when Chris Noth was in the cast with Michael Moriarity and the black dude with that funky haircut. Also, the other guy who played the "older cop" before Jerry Orbach joined the cast. THAT was an awesome show!
Most everyone probably missed that - too busy admiring parts of the anatomy the censors insist on covering up.
Don't know about that, but as I came out of the subway this morning at Jay Street, I saw the 'Law & Order' crew filming between the Supreme Court Building and Brooklyn Borough Hall.
Looks like the entire BH area today will be tied up with their vehicles and equipment.
BMTman
I constantly run into crews filming Third Watch (they of the famous M train to 125st) in Greenpoint on my way home via Kent Ave.
-Hank
HEYdoug why don't you try to get yourself ON TV
Peace,
ANDEE
[HEYdoug why don't you try to get yourself ON TV]
Andee, don't you know? I'm waiting for the return of "The Uncle Floyd Show"...;-)
That's the only way I'll go on TV (perhaps I can be talked into doing a cameo for the upcoming ABC movie-of-the-week called "The Life and Times of Heypaul")
BMTman
Beginning Friday, Feb 9, 2001 at 2300 Hours, G.O. 3210-01 will go into effect lasting a duration of over a week. This G.O. will specify removal of scrap cars in Concourse Yard.
"Beginning Friday, Feb 9, 2001 at 2300 Hours, G.O. 3210-01 will go into effect lasting a duration of over a week. This G.O. will specify removal of scrap cars in Concourse Yard."
"Removal of scrap cars"............Does this include the R-62's from the Union Square wreck ?
Bill "Newkirk"
R-12's ... the R-10 lookalikes with 3 windows per set instead of two that finished off their career on the third avenue el, replacing the loV's ... I'm surprised they didn't go sooner actually.
I think they're talking about the two R-14s which have been languishing for the last few years. The R-12s were withdrawn from service with no replacements in 1981, IIRC.
Yep ... they did the third avenue el as well.
i do not understand why they could have not been saved for SOME MUSEUM etc..
SOMEWHERE !!! geeeeeeeezzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!
OHHH..just stick it up your ass
You never saw an R10 mixed with R1-9; the brakes wre not compatible. You might have seen R7 1575 with an R10 body. While R10/R42 was rare, every permutation of R11 thru R42 happened at one time of another.
By "Redbird", I assume you mean R30, but they did not mix since the 1970's.
It was 1971 when I saw it, was working for the railroad at the time and knew how desperate they were to have anything that would roll. The term "ABD" described an awful lot of runs at the time ... couldn't believe my eyes, especially with the PRONOUNCED platform gaps the wrong cars had. But there they were just the same.
Sure I'd seem them play all kinds of consist games with the newer cars (R11 and higher were what I mean by "new") but The R1/9's and R10's I never saw with anything but their siblings. I expected that *perhaps* the R1/9's and 10's could be lashed up but never saw that.
The 70's were the final act in the TA's worst times ...
King James, Gidion or a mixed stack?
avid
Wish I could have had a vidio of that. I wonder how the passenger choice of travel effected there car prefrence? What a great psyc experiment!
Picture the manuvering on the platform as the consist pulled in to the station.
avid
I saw it myself ... the geese would just step out of the way and pass through whatever door landed in their face. No chit.
PAVLOV LIVES! :)
I must have lost my head. Your right.
I forget, most commuters are not Railfans. They just want an on-time train and a clean seat.
avid
Another conspiracy theory blown to hell, eh? Heh.
Couldn't believe it myself, but yeah ... we bad. :)
I would think at least during the summer some of the passengers would have figured out the front and rear cars on that consist were a little bit more comfortable, but I also remember back in the days of the mixed AC and non-AC Slant 40s a lot of people would just walk straight into whatever car stopped in front of them instead of taking maybe 10 steps to the right or left for a much cooler ride. And those un-ACed Slants were probably the hottest cars in the system in June, July and August.
I remember looking at the roof line for the lack of grillwork. A.C. was better.
avid
Does sorta show you why the TA's attitude towards rolling stock design has typically been "boxes that move geese" ... perhaps once the new cars come online, we can sneak aboard and replace the announcement data with various barnyward animals baaaaaa'ing, bleating and whinneying and see if anyone notices. :)
There are photos of various smorgasbord trains in the car section on this website.
The R-40Ms and R-42s blend in fairly well, as do the R-32s and R-38s. OTOH, seeing R-12s and R-14s sprinkled in with later SMEEs made them stick out like sore thumbs. Just to show how out of step I'd been, I was under the impression that those two car classes had their door controls modified so they could m. u. with later cars. BUZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!! I finally found out the R-12s and R-14s had electric, rather than pneumatic doors and that this was a non-issue.
That said, I still prefer solid trains.
No car numbers are specified.I assume the R12s are involved because of the asbestos abatement, as well as the R62 Union Square cars.
Harry,
Have you been in 207th Street Shop Recently? There is an R-62(A) at the front of the shop near the gate, on the same track as R-36 9486 and 87. The car end lacks the hardware. Sealed beams, roll signs, and pantographs are missing. If I didn't know better, I'd say the nose was transplanted onto the carbody. Could this be a survivor of the Fordham Collision?
-Stef
Could be although I haven't been there. The R62A was not involved in that collision. Naporano's Crane was parked for the G.O., which by the way starts Sunday, not tonight. Hows the railroad clerk doing these days?
I wasn't sure what carbody that is, although I'm inclined to believe that's a Kawasaki R-62 from the Fordham Collision in there. Some car must have played donor for another to receive a nose transplant.
Onto the R-12s, it's kinda surprising that they're getting scrapped from within that yard. I'll pass Concourse Yard to see what they're up to hopefully tomorrow.
The RR Clerk is fine, training is almost done so I will bid 207th St adieu shortly, and go on my way.
-Stef
CP Rail just delivered R142's numbered 6386-6390 and 6456-6460 to NY&A Fresh Pond Yard.
Shawn.
I HAVE been following the previous posts, but the numbers seem to be up and down. Does anybody have a complete list of the exact numbers of R142s are in, and also, of those numbers, which are in service right now?
i don't have a complete list, but i have uncovered the reason that so few cars are in service... they are being readied for the centennial bicentennial celebration of the opening of the irt on october 4, 2104...
LOL.
Maybe we can introduce R142/R142A Bashing as another Elevatortalk subject.
Would be like them any better if we could look out the front window ?
You can't look out the window of most R62/A's either. What's the big deal. Bashing the R142's is just childish if you ask me. I would rather ride on a train with new techonology that's telling me the wrong station with the time set wrong on the clocks than ride on a 40 year old piece of crap that's so loud inside it makes my head ache.
Shawn.
What's good in terms of looking out the front window is that almost if not all of the R46/R68 front windows have the lost the blac tint, making it a better view as you can see the motorman's cab as well as the tunnel. I believe a previous poster said this was done because of the glare the motorman was receiving. Maybe the R142s will end up that way too.
Problem is that some motormen don't want eyes peering in on them, and they put up newspaper on the winsow so you can't see at all.
"Would be like them any better if we could look out the front window ?"
As posted last week, you CAN look out the front window. It is not all black; a square was cut out so you could peer through and still get a good view. The only way you can keep complaining is if motormen are covering it up...they shouldn't do that. -Nick
they don't have to because they can't be seen if you look to the right unless they stand directly in front of the window.
Maybe. What I really hate is the front of the train. It is the ugliest thing on earth. They did a pretty bad job on the R143 as well.
The R-143 has a great front end. I've always hated the bland silver (R-42, R-44 and R-46 were good before GOH), but they go back to the stupid ASSymmetrical (deliberate mispelling) design and put the MTA logo on the left were the ROUTE SIGN BELONGS!
The R-142 is better because it's symmetrical, but I think the red is a bit much.
The R-142 is better because it's symmetrical, but I think the red is a bit much.
I sort of phrased that incorrectly. The R-142 is better for its symmetry, but the R-143 is still better overall. Best since R-46.
the red is there for a reason. when the Redbirds are all gone the red is to symbolize the legacy the redbirds left behind. and y'all will think the R-142's will put that to shame. As for the R-143, i think it would be better looking if it were to have the shape of a R-32 minus the ridges and the front end of a R-142 minus the red bloches and it would be a nice look. also ad an extra cab window. that one cab window on the R-143 looks out dated and it kills its styling.
The MTA logo on the R143 is about 20 more times noticible than the route sign. That is my only complaint. I could care less about the MTA operating the train when it is pulling in, I just want to know where the train will take me. The first time I saw this photo, it took me about 2 mintues to find the route sign. By that time in real life, the train will be long gone.
The route sign will be illuminated in operation, though, so that shouldn't be a problem.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The 143 could use a second cab window, on the inside have a window between the cab and passenger section like in DC. It would make up for the bench seating (right now anything with bench seating on the B division has a railfan window).
The LIRR, MNRR, NJT, PATH, and many other systems all have front windows on both sides of their newest equipment. And LIRR and MNRR's M-7 order will continue that trend, if the artist's rendition is true.
[they are being readied for the centennial bicentennial celebration of the opening of the irt on october 4, 2104...]
...and Paul, I know you'll be there to report the event to the alien inhabitants of earth via telepathic communication (being the Muthusala that you are... :-)
BMTman
It appears that the Sixth Avenue line (both local and express) had some major engineering issues because it was the last Manhattan line done.
Starting south of West 4th, you have the line coming north pass over three tracks of the line coming off Houston. You then have the major switching area just south of the station (is this the widest underground point in the system?), followed by the split for the two level station at West 4th.
Just north of West 4th, the Eighth Avenue line turns northwest along Greenwich Avenue, passing over the Sixth Avenue line. The PATH line comeing from Christopher Street turns north on Sixth Avenue at Ninth Street (does it pass over or under the Sixth Avenue local; it goes over the express tracks). As others have said, PATH and the local tracks dance back and forth up to 34th.
At 14th, the local and PATH go over the Canarsie line; the express goes under. The Canarsie extension to Eighth was a part of the IND construction - was it done early with the Eighth or later with the Sixth? This was a tight fit, because in building the local tracks, the City encroached on a building lot on West 13th Street. When this was discovered years later, the City apparently had to pay for a "continuing trespass" or condemn the land. (509 Sixth Ave. Corp. v. NYCTA, 15 NY2d 48 (1964) (there was no "adverse possession" because nobody knew about the underground encroachment).)
The 34th Street situation has already been discussed. At 42nd, the Sixth Avenue goes under the shuttle and over the Flushing line. It is also over the main "valve room" for the water supply system. Then at 47th-50th it splits to intersect the 53rd Street lines (the northbound extension on Sixth is an addition).
When the express lines were added, they had to sink shafts to remove the excavation debris. Of course, the neighbors were thrilled when this happened. I remember the dump trucks loading at several locations on Sixth Avenue.
It's my impression from having entered the PATH at 9th Street 2 or 3 times, that the platform there is deep enough that the PATH probably passes under the 6th Avenue local tracks when the PATH leaves 6th Avenue and turns to the right to head toward the Hudson. Note that the PATH entrance is on the East side of 6th Avenue but that the platform is south of the curve that takes the tracks away from 6th Avenue.
I'm not sure what you mean by "dance back and forth" in describing the PATH and 6th Ave local tracks. By 14th Street, all four tracks appear to be at essentially the same grade, with the TA tracks being built outside the PATH tracks.
The tracks are at the same grade at 14th and 23rd. By 33rd, the PATH tracks have separated out to their own terminal.
Re 9th Street -- I believe PATH goes under the local tracks, but remember that the local tracks as West 4th are on the lower level, which is the third level down (Eighth Avenue, mezzanine, Sixth Avenue).
PATH also goes under the West Side IRT lines at the Christopher Street-Sheridan Square station. You can see between the IRT tracks the beams that support the "bridge" over the PATH tunnel.
I think the 6th Ave tracks are on the FOURTH level down at W 4th St--mezzanine, 8th Ave, another mezanine, then 6th Ave. Or maybe I'm remembering it wrong.
:-) Andrew
It's really a very shallow upper mezzanine at West Fourth -- above the level of the Eighth Ave. tracks, but not really a full level above, which is mainly due to the "PATH Sandwich" just past the north end of the station.
The PATH tracks cut across Sixth Ave. up Christopher Street a level below the IND Eighth Ave. tracks going up Greenwich Ave. and a level above the downtown Sixth Ave. tracks. Since PATH is not a true three levels below the surface, you can't have two full levels above it before you get to the street. The A-C-E level has to be a set height, unless you want to try and squish down the trains (not advisable), so the upper mezzanine was tightened up.
The entire Sixth Ave Line that you describe was built at three distinct times.
The first part, was the Eighth Ave Subway, which included the W 4th St Station, Greenwich Ave, Houston St, et al. It was built in the 1920's and opened in 1932. One complication that you did not mention was the 6th Ave El. It shared 6th Ave with the new subway between W 3rd St and Greenwich Ave.
The second part was the 6th ave Subway, which ran between 53rd St and Greenwich Ave. It was built as a PWA project in the 1930's and was opened in 1940. The major difficulty was Hearld Square. The underground problems included: 4 PRR/LIRR tracks; the BMT Broadway tracks; the H&M (PATH) tracks; Gimbels Bargain Basement and a 200 inch water main under everything. The surface problems included maintenance of surface traffic and until 1938 the maintenance of the 6th Ave El.
The third part was the 6th Ave Express tracks between 34th and Greenwich Ave and local tracks between 53rd and 57th Sts. It was built in the 1960's and was opened in 1968. The major problem in the northern section was the remnants of the 6th Ave El 58th St spur. The major problem for southern section was maintenance of PATH and the not rupturing the water main. They were not completely successful.
The third part was the 6th Ave Express tracks between 34th and Greenwich Ave and local tracks between 53rd and 57th Sts. It was built in the 1960's and was opened in 1968. The major problem in the northern section was the remnants of the 6th Ave El 58th St spur.
What were those remnants? I had thought that the El was totally removed in the late 1930's.
What were those remnants? I had thought that the El was totally removed in the late 1930's.
It seems they never removed the pillar foundations, when the northern spur of the El was torn down in 1924. So, if you scratched the surface you would have found 6th Av El remnants.
If those in Boston are any way similar, an El foundation is an underground pyramid, on top of which rests the base of the column. The depth and footprint vary with ground conditions, but they are usually either granite blocks or poured concrete. They are a traffic hazard and very hard to dig around.
ObSubwayContent, the NPR 100 Most Important American Musical Compositions poll included Billy Strayhorn / Duke Ellington's "Take the A Train".
http://www.npr.org/programs/specials/vote/list100.html
-Dave
I was just wonderning if any of you railbuffs or transit workers that work for the subway have heard of anything in regards to the 63rd St Connector Plan & if there will be changes to the plan.
The comment period on the proposed service plan either has closed or will close shortly. We'll see how soon a decision is arrived at after that.
At the moment (pending the final comments/hearings) the service will be:
F: Existing route in Queens except it will route via the 63rd St Connector at all times. It will not stop at Queens Plaza, 23rd-Ely, Lexington Av or Fifth Avenue.
V: New Service. Local from 71st Continental via 53rd St tunnel to
2 Av-Houston St. Will operate weekdays during regular hours.
I think the E is supposed to have rush hour service to 179 as well. maybe express, maybe not. The reasoning is that Hillside ave riders will no longer have one-seat rides to the Lex lines for stations north of Bleecker. I fully support any plan to send railfan windows to 179st.
Welcome back Follo.
Your SI questions are not welcome on BusTalk and 63rd Street questions are not welcome here. The archives are available so you can find the answers to your repetitive questions.
Whoah, Horsey...I think that reply is a little rude.
I agree the archives are useful, but maybe he had a bit of trouble using them (for whatever reason).
In any case, I don't remember it being your decision what is or isn't welcome here. Please show a little courtesy and civility to a fellow poster (patience and compassion are helpful too).
I'll have to agree with Ron on this one, WMATA. The archives are useful, and yes, repetitive questions become a nuiscance....but lets let the webmasters make the decision on what is and is not welcome.
Peace,
Nick
The question was not repetitive at all, he wanted to know if any TA employees here might know of any updated news. He wasn't asking what was the 63rd. st connector service.
Very true...I am sorry that I overlooked that piece of info. Yet another reason why subtalkers should not make those kinds of decisions! -Nick
The message is still the same, the diction doesn't really change it that much.
Maybe I was a little too quick to lash out but those X21/X22 messages on SubTalk are getting annoying.
What makes you think that was Follo? Lots of people here are curious about the 63rd Street connector, and this guy's handle is different!
- Lyle Goldman
Was follo banned? if not why would he change his name?
The format of the post and the fact the same poster is posting about the SI South Shore Buses and nothing else on BusTalk. Those are the same qualities Follo had.
a suit has been filed over the kid falling bwetween cars last December. Family claims TA knew doors were faulty and wants 20 million. SOURCE: channel 2 TV news at noon.
Fox 5 News and Shadow traffic say A and C running local from Jay Street to Broadway East New York (BENY) due to "A Minor derailment."
No further info availble at this time.
Now I am guessing: since the trains are local it must have been an express train that derailed. Fox showed apartments upstairs. According to Hagstrom 5 boro atlas, this could be Weeksville Homes near the Utica Ave Station. The atlas shows these apartments as being geographically SOuth of the Fulton Street subway line.
If I get further info I will post.
NY 1 web site:
it was a C train. two wheels of a light C train jumped the tracks ate the Utica Ave Station around 930 am today." No passengers were on board, just the train crew,and no one was hurt."
"Manhattan C still out, Brooklyn C running- A is local both directions from Jay to BENY. buses are running."
Back to guesswork: The train was going to Pitkin Yard (Brooklyn Bound). Block tickets are not being issued at this time since A is running local.
If you got a block ticker earlier it is good for todat (Friday 2/9) saturday and sunday only. The block ticket is valid on any subway line(any station), any NYCT or private (ie Queens Surface) local bus
Well TA Information line says as of "1230 all trains are running on or close to schedule with the exception of the A train which is running local Jay St to BENY"
Not that they give out great info...
Well TA Information line says as of "1230 all trains are running on or close to schedule with the exception of the A train which is running local Jay St to BENY"
Not that they give out great info...
But that's all the average passenger needs to know. Why go into long-winded explanations that most folk don't care about? KISS.
AC train from 168th St. has a problem with a handbrake and was setting track fires. After the train was discharged in Brooklyn, it continued on to Pitkin Yd. Enroute, it was being crossed from A1 track to A3 track north of Utica Ave, 2 wheels jumped the tracks. No real damage, no injuries and the train was re-railed by 11:50AM
There must be something in the water.
There was a similar incident on the Boston MBTA Green Line during the aftenroon rush hour today near the Hines (Mass. Ave.) station under Boylston Street. A trolley had brake problems, so it was discharged. They brought out a work car to tow it, but somehow a brake was not properly cut out, and a small fire ensued. No derailment that I know of, but massive delays on the line while they cleared the situation.
Was it a 32 Phase I, 32 Phase II, 32 GE, 38, or a mixed bag?
wayne
The consist was all R-38s. 3967 was the problem car.
I believe only Jamaica and Coney Island have the Phase IIs. Only Pitkin and Jamaica have the Phase Is. I think only 207 Street has the GEs. R38s are only at 207 Street.
Pitkin has no Phase II R32's. I wish I could say the same about Jamaica but I can't. Jamaica has a mixed bag of I's & II's. The Jamaica Phase II's are awful because of the NY AirBrake System. They do strange intermittant things which cannot be duplicated. I wish Jamica would bury the II's and always run the I's head out, but they are busy enough in that yard without having to make extra moves. The other day Phase II 3679 south motor: train leaves Jamaica Center, motorman grabs a brake at Supthin, NOTHING! All he eventually gets is 20 pounds, put the brakes into emergency, and puts a car out of the station. Train goes out of service, of course supervision wants to hang the motorman till they find out it's a repeater!.......About 2 weeks ago, I'm operating 3832 (Phase II) and I feels the train is losing power between 65th and 36th St's. It sure was because my control cutout switch tripped out (no more power to the controller). I was able to reset it, picked up a car inspector & TSS at Queens Plaza, made it to WTC and the train was shopped when it got back to Queens. Last week, another motorman had his control cutout switch trip out as well. It was one of the pair of 3478/79, which are Phase II's as well. Perhaps this has nothing to do with NYAB, but most R32 problems which I hear about are with Phase II's. I would like to konow the MBDF of Phase I's vs. Phase II's but if it's as bad as what I suspect, I'm sure it's kept a secret!
Pitkin has no Phase II R32's.
So much for my theory of being able to tell Phase I from Phase II by the door inside trim...
I wonder if the Coney Island "N" bunch is Phase I or Phase II. I would guess Phase II.
I was on an R32 "E" not too long ago whose brakes felt kind of "grabby", I wasn't in the head car so I didn't get that car's number.
wayne
The difference is the door cut-out key hole on the seat ends. A square metal plate surrounds it on the Phase IIs, a round plastic-looking thing for the Phase Is.
You're better off with a 46, especially on the last round trip!
Steve, on this evening's ride home I saw the train of R-38's sitting pretty much not far from where the derailment occurred this morning (just past Utica on the layup track). There was a team of investigators looking over the scene with floodlights.
The number of the trailing car was 3967, and from what the T/O on my train said, it sounded like the train went into service (from the yard) with the handbrake on. Running all day with the handbrake on would certainly make for some serious fireworks on the tracks, not to mention wearing down of the wheels that could cause a derailment.
It could have been due to 'vandalism' as the older equipment has the handle on the car body instead of on the underside.
BMTman
The number of the trailing car was 3967, and from what the T/O on my train said, it sounded like the train went into service (from the yard) with the handbrake on. Running all day with the handbrake on
would certainly make for some serious fireworks on the tracks, not to mention wearing down of the wheels that could cause a derailment.
Wouldn't the crew have realized right away that something was wrong, and taken the train out of service?
Not necessarily. Sometimes I've driven my car with the parking brake on and didn't realize it until I made notice of the light on the dashboard. I did feel that the car was "dragging a bit", but didn't think anything of it. Luckily I tended to it w/o having traveled too far.
In the case of the subway incident yesterday, it could have been that the handbrake indication lamp was defective. Add that to the fact that the handbrake doesn't have to be pulled completely to activate the contacts (like my car example) and the T/O might not have "felt" much resistance to operation.
The Train Dude would be better at answering this, but I believe that's the gist of it.
BMTman
The handbrake on a subway car is a complex in that it involves a lot of linkage, pivots, chains and cables. It's operation is simple. You crank it upstairs and the chain winches up. This pulls on various rods and other devices and finally applies the brakes. On NYCT equipment, this is always on the #1 truck. On clasp brake equipment,such as the R-38, this eventually locks wheel 1-4. On cars with treadbrake unit, only wheels 2 & 3 are locked. In either case, however, the #1 & #2 axles are locked by the action of the handbrake.
The ratchetting device is located outside of the car on most older equipment and in the cab on the newer cars. On the first 'click' of the handbrake ratchet, long before the handbrake is engaged, a microswitch is activated, energizing a warning light in every cab. This light will go on in every cab if any handbrake on the train is applied.
When the handbrakes on a train are released, the lights will go out 'only' if all handbrake ratchets have moved back to their resting position and all micro switches are disengaged. If not, the train operator must locate the problem and determine that the handbrake on that car is released.
The system has one flaw, though. Since we are 'pulling' to apply the handbrake, we 'relax' to release the brake. The fact that the upper mechanism goes to it's 'relax' position upstairs does not mean that all of the linkage under the car has done so. Much like your personal cars, you can release the parking brake but (especially in freezing weather) find that the calipers or brake cylinders are locked at the wheel.
Hence, the need for a 'sensative' rolling test.
[The number of the trailing car was 3967, and from what the T/O on my train said, it sounded like the train went into service (from the yard) with the handbrake on.]
To reiterate: The T/O of my A train last night got his info from the "rumor mill" so he was just surmising about the train having gone into service w/the brake on. This is highly debatable as sparks would have been spewing from the trucks as the train moved out of the yard -- likely to have been seen by other workers. As well it is the duty of the train crew to check the position of the handbrakes before the start of their tour, so the problem -- if spotted -- would have been corrected at that point.
Don't forget that any rider could have easily have pulled the handbrake while the train was on the road. Again, if the indication lamp was malfunctioning -- then the end result could certainly lead to something like what happenned yesterday morning.
Pointing the blame on the crew is always the "easy way out", but there are more factors involved, so a thorough investigation is the only route in a case like this.
BMTman
The rumor mill is dangerous. The derailment happened before I got to work, nobody said anything, then they say on the radio: due to a stalled train at Utica Ave......you get the idea, and I work there! The rumor mill is dangerous. First I hear it's an R44 A train! NOT! And the news media didn't hype it too much because no people were injured or stranded. I am concerned: The handbrake was at the conductors position. The train was on it's first trip of the day. So the conductor would have saw a vandal apply the handbrake if that were the case. I hope that the motorman who prepared the train for service checked all 8 handbrakes in that the chain was all the way up and the ball was showing.
I'm not going to comment beyond the information that was available on the 'Train trouble' system because there is an active investigation in progress. 3967 was at the conductor's position when the train left 168th St. Apparently, the handbrake on that car locked wheels 1-4 causing the track fires to be set through Manhattan, until the condition was discovered and the train was removed for service. The four cars behind 3967 were cut away from the train and sent to the yard for inspection. As to who should have known what and the question of vandalism, I'll wait for the final disposition from the good people at "System Safety" before I comment.
A C train from 168th St. has a problem with a handbrake and was setting track fires. After the train was discharged in Brooklyn, it continued on to Pitkin Yd. Enroute, it was being crossed from A1 track to A3 track north of Utica Ave, 2 wheels jumped the tracks. No real damage, no injuries and the train was re-railed by 11:50AM
That's what caused the 'minor smoke condition'. Earlier this morning, I was listening to NY1 rail & road report, and they said that A/C trains were not running between Jay st. and Canal because of a minor smoke condidtion.
I have to laugh at the term "minor derailment". I doubt if Fox and Shadow coined that term themselves for this incident, rather I would suspect the TA did. Either you have a derailment or you don't have a derailment! A derailment is a derailment if one wheel goes off the tracks or every wheel on the train goes off the tracks!
That's like saying someone's a "little" pregnant!
Not true at all. The Union Square wreck was a "derailment".
I dare say this was easier to clean up. 2 wheels down is pretty
easy, and kudos to the alert motorman who stopped in time before
it became 4, 8 or more.
>>>...and kudos to the alert motorman who stopped in time before
it became 4, 8 or more. <<<
Unfortunately the TA will still probably try to hang him/her.
Peace,
ANDEE
To the stewards here ... if anyone makes a stink, I'll be happy to gas off at the "M" over any sanctions. Jeff H is right ... they could have dragged the whole train. That aside, I'm sure they're going to find out who switched it out ... hand brakes is part of the first walk through ritual before you charge it in the yard. Or has that changed too?
"Unfortunately the TA will still probably try to hang him/her."
I suspect that in this case, you'd be wrong. Anytime you move a bad order train with (truck) mechanical problems such as were present in this incident, there is always the possibility of the train 'going on the ground'. It was not expected here but the possibility was there. If the axe of human error is to fall, it should not fall on the train operator.
I hope you are right.
Peace,
ANDEE
Just to clear this up, it went on the ground **AFTER** it was bad ordered???
Amen ... the more jacks and levers, the longer it takes and it would seem given that only one truck went over the edge, this wasn't all so bad. You haven't lived until you've had to jack up a car and hope that the next bounce lands it true. For anyone who's ever heard of the Mount Washington Cog Railway, (New Hampshire) I was on a ride up and back down that derailed ... attack of the story monster late tonight if anybody wants to hear it. Steam loco, inclined cars ... a funicular beyond compare.
To quote the locomotive engineer on the run, "We all damn near got KILLED, and THIS guy *LIKED* it!" (and no, I was in the geese cart, I wasn't anywhere near the cab the entire trip - paid honker was I) ... but for anyone who's never enjoyed a derail, somehow this twisted soul managed to really get off on it. Happened on the ladder, 60 feet above the ground - no guard rails, just 50 pound rail. Ayup ... 50 pound rail. Nothing like the Mount Washington for a TRUE railfan ride.
Evey incident is logged into a computer which Car Equipment people have access to. Every item has a code number. In this case whatever the numerical code for "derailment main line" is used. There is no code for "minor derailment", nor is there a code for "major derailment". There is just one code for a derailment on the main line. That is all I was trying to say.
Last night after working late I wanted a head end ride on the slants so I walked over to the 21st Station (Queensbridge) now on the 63rd St. Connector route >G<.
They have covered up all the B stickers, on the two entrances and on the platform signs. Only the Q sticker is there, kninda misleading if you know the Q does not run nights/weekends.
Fun thing is on the sign over the steps down to the station you can see the covered up B and the covered up "Train to the Plane" stickers. The TTP sticker is bleeding through the coverup .
The station is plastered with the red and white service signs and the new yellow "trains running where they never ran before" signs. Most are in spanish...
>>>Most are in spanish... <<<
'splain lucy
Peace,
ANDEE
Most of the signs are printed in Spanish.
This was foretold back in December, when the TA printed out new B line schedules that had the B going up the 8th Avenue IND at all times, and never going thru 63rd Street.
No mention of 21st Street, except for the "B" shuttles via Broadway BMT.
I'm surprised the yellow ones are still there. The first day I saw them hung up in my station, I knew I just had to have one.
It's hanging over my TV right now. The handouts for the new connector as well as the posters are in almost every station in the system (at least B div, as well as a few Lex and 7th ave stops). I haven't checked the Bronx yet, but a few Brighton stops have them, and many A stations in Brooklyn and Queens.
Its along the Brooklyn IRT as well......
A report from CanarsieShawn has CP delivering #s 6386-6390 and 6456-6460 at approximately 4:35 this morning to NY&A.
I would suppose we will see the NY&A move to Linden Shops this afternoon or sometime tomorrow.
BMTman
great! when are they going into service? there are so many R142's and R142A's on the property but not running whats going on? btw I witnessed a Kawasaki R-142A without trucks being delivered to Yonkers on a flatbed. last night at around 10:00 Bailey Ave. the Bronx.
As of this moment all the R142 and R142a's are off the road.....
......at least for passenger service.
there is a car in there with an unfinished face at unionport. (there is no black paint on the face) i think it was 6387. was that the original test car at plattsburgh?
No thats not it. 6386-6390 was just delivered last night.
oh. i don't remember the stock number then, however you will see what i mean if you go past unionport and look out at the car.
Mike, wasn't that something about T/O's "hot-dogging" with the new equipment because the R-142's haven't yet been field-shunted?
BMTman
1.What part of NYC is the cab going through when he comes from the airport with his first two victims in the back. (looks very industrial)
2.What tracks is the victim buried next too when Jolie's character stops the train at the beginning of the movie??
1. I dunno.
2. Looks like the Amtrak connection from Penn Station to the former NYC West Side Line. (It appears tobe the same as in the Railroad Video in-cab video of the Amtrak Hudson River Line).
why is this happening to the American automobile industry? they have improved on their cars dramatically. They are now considered more reliable than imports (except by consumer reports on all of them. Favortists!)because they are less expensive to maintain and they can stay out on the road longer than the imports. their styling is getting more attractive every 4 years when they change them (opinionated)you get more features for your money, but they still begin to lag in sales. its so bad that the oldmobile division, GM's oldest is now departing in the next 5 years, unless they can make a come back. We all know why Chrysler is losing sales, if you go back into history (hint: daimler bought them), but Ford and GM shouldn't suffer. the only imports that i am proud that are making sales is Hyundai and Kia. they showed that they aren't crappy automakers, however the americans are doing the same thing but they are not succeeding.
(why is this happening to the American automobile industry? they have improved on their cars dramatically. They are now considered more reliable than imports)
We have an American car. But my American-first, pro-union father in law picked up a Japanese car after three straight American lemons, the last a Chevy Malibu with non-working brakes. He'll never buy another American car, nor will he recommend one to anyone else. My parents also own two Japanese cars, after buying American for years. I don't know anyone who bought a Japanese car, then went back to American cars.
For the record, we have a Saturn, built in Tennesee. So far, so good.
We have an American car. But my American-first, pro-union father in law picked up a Japanese car after three straight American lemons, the last a Chevy Malibu with non-working brakes. He'll never buy another American car, nor will he recommend one to anyone else. My parents also own two Japanese cars, after buying American for years. I don't know anyone who bought a Japanese car, then went back to American cars.
Not that it's easy to determine where cars are from anymore. My Isuzu Rodeo is from a Japanese company (albeit one 49% owned by GM), was assembled at a factory in Lafayette, Indiana, and 70% of its component parts are of non-US origin (among other things, the engine is from France, the transmission is from Japan).
I don't know anyone who bought a Japanese car, then went back to American cars.
Here's one. I made the mistake of buying a Honda once... after 65K it was ready for the junkyard... motor bad, interior shot, paint faded. I replaced it with a big Plymouth that bit the dust at 180K after a collision (while my honorary niece was driving, not me).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
lemons lie upon all the automobiles. an acquaintance of mine bought a Honda Accord EX. in 1999. mid summer, the car wouldn't start. problem? the whole engine. they had to give hime another one because it wasn't fixible. the cams were defective and so were the pistons. as far as failing breaks, it may be serious for when you are driving. but, at least the Malibu was still running. also i know people who have went back to american cars mainly for the reason of style and low maintenance required. my brother owned a 1991 toyota celica, now he trade it in for a 1999 Oldsmobile Intrigue. problem free and still going. also a friend of mine bought the Toyota sienna minnie van (how do you spell minnie? ) which he was dissatisfied because of size and versatility. he then stepped up to the Pontiac Montana, that had much more room and a sophisticated engine for maintenance purposes. still going strong with no problem. and one more thing, i've been hearing that the imports had many lemons over the two years that have passed. when i went to the toyota dealer to look at the echo, a conversation about buying the car turned into about lemons. he told me that the japanese companies have many lemons, but they hide it real well with many accomodations to the customer so their reputations will not be tarnished. i do believe so when i heard about the takeover of mitsubishi by daimler-chrysler. their take over was caused by financial trouble and hiding consumer complaints about lemons.
Don't forget, until the mid 70's, this was also the design of Ford Econolines.
And of every other van. The worst were the VW bus and the Chevy Greenbrier vans, but Dodge and Ford vans (plus the Toyota van mentioned earlier, and the first-generation Nissan van) were almost as bad. Second-generation vans from the Big Three were only slightly better.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Don't forget, until the mid 70's, this was also the design of Ford Econolines.
And of every other van. The worst were the VW bus and the Chevy Greenbrier vans, but Dodge and Ford vans (plus the Toyota van mentioned earlier, and the first-generation Nissan van) were almost as bad. Second-generation vans from the Big Three were only slightly better.
Volkswagen's Eurovan still has an almost flat front end. While that design might seem unsafe, it's good enough for the safety engineers at VW, so apparently it isn't so bad.
I saw an online video clip some time ago (naturally, I can't remember the URL) when researching vehicle safety that was quite interesting with respect to this point. Sweden's vehicle testing agency crashed a Eurovan head-on into a Volvo sedan at a substantial speed, something like 75 or 80 kph. Despite its flat front, the Eurovan's front seating area remained reasonably intact - some intrusion into the foot area, but within acceptable limits (the Swedes didn't use crash test dummies, unfortunately). The Volvo? It was obliterated,, with the engine block pushed back into the passenger compartment. Any front seat occupants would have been crushed. So much for Volvo's much-vaunted safety!
VW's current van has a truck frame of similar rigidity to that of a full-sized American pickup. I suspect that Volvo's safety reputation is predicated on a collision with a fixed object or with another passenger vehicle, not a truck (with the truck's ability to ride up and over the Volvo).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
VW's current van has a truck frame of similar rigidity to that of a full-sized American pickup. I suspect that Volvo's safety reputation is predicated on a collision with a fixed object or with another
passenger vehicle, not a truck (with the truck's ability to ride up and over the Volvo).
As a matter of fact, the site which contained the video clip in fact discussed that problem concerning Volvos, IIRC. I suppose it might be due to the fact that they are designed in Sweden, where there probably aren't that many light trucks in use, at least not compared to the United States.
I'll have to try and see if I can find the site, I'll post a link if I find it.
Here is the site showing the crash test between the VW Vanagon and a Volvo. I was mistaken, it has still pictures rather than video clips - not that it matters, the results are utterly awesome.
Can you imagine what the results would have been if they'd crashed the Volvo into a Ford Econoline rather than a Vanagon? It would have been like smashing an eggshell with a sledge hammer.
Interesting site, Peter... thanks for sharing. They mention "roll-cage" construction for the VW, which probably originated due to the inordinate tendency of the VW to roll over but has had the added benefit to the VW driver of providing additional protection in a frontal.
I still wonder what would happen if one of those met an F-150 at the same angle as it did the Volvo. Somehow I don't think the results would be in the VW's favor.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interesting site, Peter... thanks for sharing. They mention "roll-cage" construction for the VW, which probably originated due to the inordinate tendency of the VW to roll over but has had the added
benefit to the VW driver of providing additional protection in a frontal.
I still wonder what would happen if one of those met an F-150 at the same angle as it did the Volvo. Somehow I don't think the results would be in the VW's favor.
Glad you liked it. The crash-test stuff is part of a Vanagon/Eurovan enthusiats' site, it looks like it's there to settle any doubts as to whether the vans are safe.
I looked a little more into the site and was quite surprised at the pricing. While I suppose it depends on what sort of deals the dealers are making, it looks like you can get a fully equipped Eurovan for well under $30,000. That would be difficult or impossible with a Windstar or a Caravan (the latter of which, after their restyling for 2001, have gotten grossly overpriced).
I don't suppose a Vanagon or Eurovan would do quite as well tangling with a F-150, but it would do a heck of a lot better than a passenger car would!
My dad's got an older Saturn with ~200,000 miles on it, the car just keeps going like crazy, but the fit and finish on it leaves quite a bit to be desired.
Our '86 Chevy Celebrity station wagon (Eurosport!!! What's so sportty about a station wagon?) has ~170,000, but it's had numerous problems. So far, we've had the tranny fixed (blown EPA solinoid) , a new power steering rack, new ingition module, A/C repaired 3 times, blown cooling fan, nuked wiper washer pump, a few water pumps, an alternator, etc, etc, etc. Only reason we've got it is it's our workhorse and the Saturn is so freaking tiny.
Those cars replaced a '70s Buick (a real POS), an early 80's Escort (heheheh, American subcompacts SUCK), and a Vega.
I learned a bit about car engines watching my dad rebuild the Vega every month. GM's finest moment in that car (not!).
As for Foreign power, my friend had a Hyundai. Not a horrible car, but not a great one. I'd love to say it never left us by the side of the road, but it did a few times.
I learned to ride on a 350 Suzuki. The damm thing couldn't climb a hill or break 50mph. Whoopie. I beat the snot out of both of my Harleys and they both still work. My sportty burnt oil like it was going out of style and pinged even on super premium. Never let me down though. Tough little bike...
Congratulations to heypaul on yet another WINNING CLUB
Peace,
ANDEE
thanks andee for being there right from the beginning...
elevatortalk is the premiere site on the internet for talk about elevators, escalators, dumbwaiters, intelligent waiters, head waiters, parachute jumps, and garbage truck conveyor systems... we are not associated with otis elevator, steeplechase, or the department of sanitation of the city of new york...
Greetings, fellow Subway Enthusiasts,
I have for sale, on Ebay, two R-46 subway cars;
kinda expensive, but worth it. These are the recent
ones by Images Replicas........nyeman
nyeman: Could you provide the eBay Item Number?
Item Number 557915252
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=557915252
There's an interesting sign at Chambers St. on the Nassau Line, something about off-hours. The sign has/had stickers for the J and M lines. One of them has fallen or has been ripped off and reveals a black N in a yellow circle. Does anyone know if/when the N/R trains might have run/from to Chambers St. on the Nassau Line. It's at the top of the first set of stairs leading to the Queens bound platform.
Another intersing sign is on the Queens bound platform on the express track side. There is a sign that says something like H2 10.5. I don't know if that's the exact number the 10.5 but it's like the last remaining evidence that that track was connected to the south side of the Manhattan bridges, well besides left over stub tracks.
Shawn.
Well, the R ran to chambers rush hours as late as the mid 1980's, but this was a replica of N service, so it was discontinued. As for the N, before the 90's, it was a bridge service, so it couldn't have run on Nassau St. regularly, and after that, I never recall any maps showing this. That sign is probably misplaced or something.
> Well, the R ran to chambers rush hours as late as the mid 1980's,
> but this was a replica of N service, so it was discontinued.
How was it a replica of N service?
- Lyle Goldman
Sea Beach (now 'N') trains did not run into Chambers Street or on the Nassau Line in the years after letters were instituted, so the sign you are seeing was probably recycled from elsewhere on the system.
The standard design GRS signal (automatic, homeball) of different types are being replaced on the West End Line.
The original configuration has been in operation since 1918, and when something goes wrong, it must be repaired in the TA's own shops, since no more parts are available...GRS has long since departed the scene of railway signaling.
On the BMT Lines, there are two types of elevated signal, and I noticed that when the IND took over former BMT els, the IND adapted it's own model of automatic block signal.
Does anyone know when the new signal system will be put into service? I am thinking about saving a few GRS signal heads....and I know the weight already lolol
Thanks
The standard design GRS signal (automatic, homeball) of different types are being replaced on the West End Line.
Good, its about time. GRS Sux.
GRS has long since departed the scene of railway signaling.
Nope, they are now called Safetrain Inc. They are the ones who are polluting the rail lines w/ their hooded stoplight signals. Basically new packaging, same product, loosers.
On the BMT Lines, there are two types of elevated signal, and I noticed that when the IND took over former BMT els, the IND adapted it's own model of automatic block signal.
They probably got smart and used equipment from the Union Switch and Signal Co. www.switch.com
Does anyone know when the new signal system will be put into service? I am thinking about saving a few GRS signal heads....and I know the weight already lolol
Don't waste your time. Salvage a US&S head. They look nicer and are higher quality. Of course this makes fewer of them available for salvage.
Your lousy opinion
Peace,
ANDEE
Its no more lousey than any other typical railfan preferance. PRR vs. NYC, R142 vs. Redbird, Electro-Penumatic vs. Electric, Position vs. Colour Light.
Did you know that US&S manufactured .45 Cal Pistols for the Army during WWII, They are highly prized by gun collectors.
Is there anything US&S hasen't done. If they hadn't been bought out by some Italian consortium I'd say they were the world's greatest company.
Gruppo SASIB
This opinion based on your vast experience designing, installing and
servicing railway signaling equipment, no doubt?
Truth is, both GRS ans USS have had their ups and downs over
the years, and in comparing similar products sometimes the GRS
version is superior and sometimes the USS version wins.
>>>This opinion based on your vast experience designing, installing and
servicing railway signaling equipment, no doubt? <<<
Touche, Jeff, Touche.
Peace,
ANDEE
The real problem is that both these companies, their customers and the industry has ignored technological innovations of the last 60 years. What NYCT is doing is replacing a 1918 system with a 1940 system. Considering that NYCT is considering a leap into 1990 technology, why the rush at this time?
Considering that US&S invented cab signals in the 20's, the first "cab signals w/o fixed wayside signals" in the 30's or 40's, a simple and effective automatic train operation in the 40's - 60's (Times Square Shuttle/PATCO) I would think a 40's signaling system has amlost everything a modern system does except its not controled by comupters that are prone to bugs, failures and electro-magnetic pulses.
/* I would think a 40's signaling system has amlost everything a modern system does except its not controled by comupters that are prone to bugs, failures and electro-magnetic pulses. */
You mean there's an electromechanical cab signal system out there that can tell you:
What the current speed restriction is (in MPH)
What the next one is (Also in MPH)
How far you've got until the next one is effective (In any relevant unit system)
And if you think computers are lousy, relays are prone to all sorts of fun failure modes that can be equally as annoying.
And, the LIRR's cab signlling system is effectively a 40's system and it breaks all the time. So much for reliable relays...
If the means of production break down you can't build computers from materials you have laying around.
I think they may realize that the leap to 1990's technology may take so long that the GRS equipment on the West End would crumble to dust before it reached upgrade time. Can you say "stopgap?"
I have reviewed their respective catalogs, noted their accomplishments and advancements, talked w/ railroaders regarding their preferances, noted where and how their products showed up in the field and what RR's used them and read signaling related books.
The US&S M-3 series switch is widely held to to be the best switch machine ever put on the market and the company has consistantly advanced the "state of the art" in signaling technology.
1903: first AC track circuit & vane relay
1923: first inductive train control (continuous cab signaling system)
1923: first industrial application of vacuum tubes
1924: first remote controlled gravity hump yard
1926: invention of copper oxide rectifier
1934: first coded track circuit
1942: first coded carrier centralized traffic control (CTC) system
1966: first computer aided dispatching system
1970: first digital classification yard control system
1985: first microprocessor-based vital interlocking
1986: first video-projection railroad territory display
1987: first consolidation of control of all rail territory in one location
1995: first driverless-capable light rail transit (LRT) system in North America
1998: first fully consolidated transit operations control center
Finally the Standard Railroad of the World almost exclusively used US&S, while the Imposter Railroad of the World used GRS.
Isn't cut and paste an amazing tool!
Peace,
ANDEE
What does that have to do w/ the validity of my information. It shows I've done some research.
Do you work for Ansaldo Transporti ???
Do you work for Ansaldo Transporti ???
It breaks my hart that such a fine American company had to get bought out by Italians.
Union Switch and Signal Co.
Swissvale, PA
Pattent Pending
>1926: invention of copper oxide rectifier
First *rail* application of it, but probbably not the invention of it. copper oxide rectifiers were surpassed by selenium, then sillicon, and quite quickly too.
>1995: first driverless-capable light rail transit (LRT) system in North America
*in north America* i.e. some European company beat them to the punch.
>1998: first fully consolidated transit operations control center
See above.
>Finally the Standard Railroad of the World almost exclusively used US&S.
Of course, the PRR's technical leadership is unmatched. Bringing the first use of AC electrics, rectifier locos and MUs, dual use diesels, dual mode diesels, multivoltage elecxtrics, practical high speed electrics, a totally grade sepperated main line, ligtweight equipment, Talgos, RDCs, etc, etc, etc.
Oh wait, that wasn't the PRR, that was the New Haven. Whoops...
Besides, the PRR's equipment, etc was obsolete by the 50's. Some standard.
Maybe in the 1800's they innovated, but that innovation stopped by WWII.
They practically had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 1960's.
Thank you, Phil
What other trends did the mighty New Haven set? Single dimention interlockings, semaphore signals on a 4 track electrified main line, lo-level platorms at all mainline stations, no cab signaling, locomotived whose innovation superceeded their preformance, not having their own NYC terminal station, needing to use dual-mode diesels in the first place, etc, etc, etc.
Phooey on the PRR with their flying junctionsm cab signals, hi-level island platforms (at important stations), electric position light signals and superrior locomotives. I wonder how the GG-1 stacks up against the EP-3 or EP-5? MP-85 vs. washboard? E-33 vs. E-44? In 1970 the New Haven made even the Penn Central look good. It had been litterally falling appart since Pensy Days. They even wanted to de-electrify the whole system and even got away w/ it on the Danbury branch.
ligtweight equipment, Talgos, RDCs,
That's probably what did them in. As I read in one book 1960's Americans prefered to ride in something like a Buick rathen than a Beatle. That's why light weight was a flop everywhere it went. (Aerotrain, Talgo etc.) Its still ture today.
> lo-level platorms at all mainline stations.
So? The PRR had plenty of low level platforms on the NEC.
>no cab signaling.
The PRR had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into installing ATC, to supplement their worthless cab signalling system that couldn't enforce the signals. Both the LIRR (cab signaled in places since 1911), and the PRR, were basically forced into installing ATC (which the IC, and others, had) by the government, after a few REAL nasty accidents in the early 50's*.
> and superrior locomotives.
Ummmm, no.
> I wonder how the GG-1 stacks up against the EP-3 or EP-5?
Against an EP-3, they'd be the same probbably, since the GG-1 is effectively a rip off of the EP-3. Against an EP-5, the 5 would likely outaccelerate the GG-1, but the GG-1 could sustain high speed longer. The New Haven needed high acceleration locomotives, not high speed ones. Plus, the EP-5 had all weight on it's drivers, more horsepower, and rectifiers, which gave it the edge at low speeds, where 25hz direct fed motors suck, and DC motors rule.
> MP-85 vs. washboard?
Washboard, hands down. The early MP-85s were known to be slow accelerators. I'm not sure what the control technology of the Washboards were, but the later MP-85's with phase angle control might have edged out the Washboards. But they were also about 10 years newer,
>E-33 vs. E-44?
Again, you've got 10 years of development sepperating the two.
>They even wanted to de-electrify the whole system and even got away w/ it
> on the Danbury branch.
No,. Mc Gunnies (sp) did. Of course, he also drove the New Haven under practically, and then went off to kill the B&M. He eventually servedjail time for some sort of fraud at the B&M.
>That's probably what did them in.
Sure. innovation is a sure way to bankruptcy. Sitting in the 1930's while the rest of the world is in the 60's, isn't.
> As I read in one book 1960's Americans
> prefered to ride in something like a Buick rathen than a Beatle.
That's bullshit. Go thumb through any 60's vintage Popular Mechanics, and read the various car reviews. You'll note that many people back then were VERY happy with their tiny import cars. In fact, the old VW bug is still the best selling car of all time. by the late 50's, big, obnoxious, overstyled cars were on the way out - witness the flop of the Edsel.
> That's why light weight was a flop everywhere it went. (Aerotrain, Talgo etc.)
> Its still true today.
Funny, the LIRR's 92,000 lb M-1s spawned what is probbably the most sucessful line of MUs in US railroading history. Even the M-2/4/6 cars weigh less than 130,000lbs (I believe, I can dig up the numbers if I have them) - phenominal for an AC/DC unit.
The trouble with the Aerotrain was it rode on acient truck technology. Of course, American railroads never bothered keeping pace with developments overseas, which is why even the more recent Amtrak equipment rides on an obsolete truck design.
You can make a carboard box ride real well if you design the trucks properly.
And, the more recent Talgos in the northwest have proved to be rather sucessful.
*The Rockville Center collision *occured* on cab signalled trackage.
So? The PRR had plenty of low level platforms on the NEC.
The New Haven had none. Not at Stamford, or Bridgeport or even New Haven. The PRR had Hi-level platforms at all majour stations: Newark, Trenton, Rahway, North Philly, Wilmington and Lancaster to name a few.
Against an EP-3, they'd be the same probbably, since the GG-1 is effectively a rip off of the EP-3.
The only thing ripped off the EP-3 was the 4-6-6-4 configuration and that was ripped off the NYC P motors.
Washboard, hands down. The early MP-85s were known to be slow accelerators. I'm not sure what the control technology of the Washboards were, but the later MP-85's with phase angle control might have edged out the Washboards.
MP-85 Silverliners could accelerate at 1.85 m/ss. They also used silicon diodes instead of rectifiers.
Again, you've got 10 years of development sepperating the two.
Exactly, the New Haven jumped the gun and bought into AC/DC locomotives before the technology was ready. The result was locomotives that were quickly made obselete. The Silverliners are still running and the E-44 were still in use by Amtrak in 1986. The Jets and Washboards had left the scene long before that.
Sure. innovation is a sure way to bankruptcy. Sitting in the 1930's while the rest of the world is in the 60's, isn't.
If one looks at history you will see time and time again when perfectly good "traditional" systems were scrapped for new hi-tech modern jobbies with lots of innovation. Unfortunitly new ideas can in face be bad and the wholescale to dump the past led to disaster.
And, the more recent Talgos in the northwest have proved to be rather sucessful.
Unfortunitly they are still a compromise. Wouldn't you prefer Talgo speed and riding with Pullman room and comfort? We need to find a way to have our cake and eat it too. Talgo cars are freaking sardine cans. They aren't even 1/2 as tall as the F59's that pull them. The coaches should be at least as tall as the locomotives. Why should the engineer be the only one who rides in a palace.
The author of "The Malbone Street Wreck" is due for a lecture and book signing at the New York Transit Museum on February 22 at 6:00 pm. Now is the chance to ask him all those technical questions about the disaster on a one-on-one basis. I believe this is a free event.
I'll be there.
BMTman
Everyone is complaining of the Court Sq. xfer. Personally, I've never walked it. But if I had to go to 36th st., I would rather only take 2 trains instead of 3 (G to E/F to R). So here's the simple solution: Run the G to Queens Plaza.
Some people might say that that would create congestion, With the G going thru there, and the R and V stuff. But, I'm sure that everyone remebers that the G used to terminate at Queens Plaza during the times it now terminates at court sq. They began the cut back to work on the Switch between the G and R lines, and then just kept it that way. You can't have the G, V and R on the same track though, so the V should be routed through the 63rd. tunnel as a local (this would also give people between roosevelt and 36th service to the tunnel). Then, the F and the E will be on the express tracks at Queens Pl. and the R will be on the local. Or, maybe the V will pull into Queens Pl. on the exp., in which case the G can use Queens Pl. as a terminal too.
Everyone should remeber that Queens Plaza will only have 3 train lines routed through it. the G can be accomodated, as was done so in the past.
How is the G going to change direction at Queens Plaza?
As of right NOW, no. They used the relay tracks during the construction of the 63rd St. Connector for regular through service. Once the current work on the interlocking that they are doing now, I think they are putting back the relay tracks.
Instead of makeing the G Line go to Queens Plaza. Make the G Line run to 179 St. G line Used to ran to 179 ST doing late nights. And one time doing the weekend.
Dominick Bermudez.
Not enough cars, + same problem with running V G R on the same tracks and turning trains at 71 while providing through service.
(Not enough cars, + same problem with running V G R on the same tracks and turning trains at 71 while providing through service.)
In the short run there are not enough cars. I think the V/G/R could probably fit, unless the are going to run more V and R than I expect. The problem is the G would be empty until Queens Plaza, and that's a waste of cars and labor.
A weak solution would be to build a G terminal at Queens Plaza. The strong solution would be to connect the G to the 63rd St tunnel, and to the Culver tracks heading TO Manhattan in Brooklyn, so it could run as a loop as an additional 6th Avenue local.
No 'fense, but even the WEAK solution (knowing the path of least resistance mentaility) would be an improvement. There is still one standing "precedent" in that the Franklin doesn't run from either end to nowhere ... there's a line on both ends of it. Given the "rehab" which looks nice and all, I would expect that crosstown riders are entitled to a new WYE terminating in a platform at QBP at least equivalent to 148 at minimum. If they have to spur it as a single track past a switch somewhere south, I'm sure even that would be an improvement even if the relay has to be done at the platform and not cleared until the inbound leaves and hits the switch with the next waiting for it to clear. Hell, the Franklin and the old Culver used to do this action all the time. It's the LEAST they can do given the historic nature of the line. Sorry for the rabidity here, but cutting the line as they're doing it just ain't right.
I think the V/G/R could probably fit, unless the are going to run more V and R than I expect.
The unequal frequencies of the E/F/R/V/ make switching conflicts a mathematical certainty without the G. Turning around one G every 10 minutes would be minor compared to the scheduled delays proposed by the TA.
Too bad they didn't build a lay-up/turnaround track on the two track section of the Queens local line between 36th and 63rd Streets, which would have given the G a place to terminate without blocking the other tracks. As it is, the MTA is not going to allow the G to do the switch be crossing over in front of two different lines headed to Continental and then three lines headed back towards Brooklyn.
Now, if they ever do build that Sunnyside yard, and put in a pair of yard connection ramps from the QB local tracks between 36th St. and Queens Plaza, then you might have a place to turn the G around without affecting the other lines.
Nom plan which involves the G sharing any space (including Queens Plaza platform tracks) with Manhattan-bound trains is going to be feasible, given the goals set by the TA for the new line. New tracks should have been built, but unless the G can be kept off of current Queens Plaza platforms (eg bypass tracks, or a new lower level exclusively for the G, or some other plan), the construction would be pointless.
Leaders to a new Sunnyside yard from the local tracks east of Queens Plaza -- so long as they merged before the yard and was equipped with a crossover -- could serve as the G turnaround at QP in the future. The trains could be held in the new track until the Manhattan bound R train cleared.
Depending on where the bellmouth was put for the yard tracks, there could still be a problem if it was located before the swtiches between the current express and local tracks, which the V is scheduled to use. But if the G train could stop at QP, that would eliminate the need for the V to run through the 53rd St. tunnel, and it could be rerouted through 63rd, while the F went back to its traditional line. That would leave only the R on the local tracks between 36th and QP, which would certainly open up enough space for the G, as infrequent as its service is.
Judging from reports on the new 63rd St. tunnel, the yard tracks to anything built at Sunnyside will split off from it, not from the existing local tracks. But while the chances of the MTA putting in a yard connector from there are small, they're still a lot better than the chances they'll build a new G terminus beneath the existing QP station.
I do not like the idea of the G terminating at Court Square station, because that station is desolate during the late night hours, and many of the local deviants go there to perform their activities at that time. Queens Plaza station is well lit, has more staffing, has better access to policing, and is a good deal safer than Court Square. An article in Newsday a few years back highlighted these very issues, and I saw the station for myself and concluded that it was not a safe place, especially at night. If there will be a very visible police presence there at all times, then the safety issue will be put to rest, but otherwise, riders beware, and the MTA should get ready for the fallout when a major crime happens, causing negative publicity.
Walking to the transfer that connects to the E and F line is not going kill anyone. That was the main reason why it was built in the first placccce! As sorry as I am about the G not running along the Queens Blvd route, this is the best plan I see so far. Besides, Building a new underground station at Queens Blvd is a waste of public resources that could be spent for more important projects (like the second avenue line, extension of the A, F in Queens and 2/5 in Brooklyn, etc.).
I mentioned extending the G during non rush hours to 71st Street. I did not get a comment on whether this plan is a good idea.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
I really hate how the G is being treated. For your information, the G is the original line of the Queens Blvd route. Not the R. When the get more cars, I say run the G to 71st Street and the V to 179th Street.
N Bwy
I say G terminate at court square all time except night. During late night hours (12AM -6AM) G extended to Jamaica Center and E runs as a shuttle between WTC and Canal Street. Passangers bound for 7 Ave can transfer between A and D at West 4. And transfer between A and E for service to/from WTC.
I want the Q line to run to 71 AVE VIA 63 St tunnel. instead of 57 ST.
I want the R line to run to Jamaica Center. instead of 71 AVE.
I want the F line to run express after 71 AVE. instead of going local.
I want the V line to run to 179 St VIA express to 71 AVE then local after that.instead of running to 71 AVE VIA local.
I want the G line to run to Queens Plaza.instead of running to
court square.
I hope you like my idea.
Dominick Bermudez.
sounds reasonable!
The proposal to run the G to Queens Plaza can only work if additional tracks (such as a new lower level) at Queens Plaza are constructed. The 63rd St Connector by itself gave MTA additional flexibility to route trains to Manhattan, but did not increase capacity per se. The increase in capacity was effected by removing the G train from Queens Plaza and allowing only MANHATTAN-BOUND trains to use the 63, 60 and 53 St tunnels.
A new ramp to bring G trains to a new terminal below the current platforms at Queens Plaza (along with making Queens Plaza itself ADA-compliant) would be of great benefit to G riders. This ramp could be designed with crossover switches, or even a third track to help make G turnarounds easy and fast.
There are other ways of accomplishing this, but forcing the Manhattan-bound trains to share track space with the G is just not feasible.
"Make the G Line run to 179 St."
I rather see the V running to 179th Street than the G.
N Bwy
This has been discussed too many times before. To turn a train at Queens Plaza it has to cross both express tracks to get to and from the relay track. Plus it has to be cleaned out (remove the stragglers) before entering the relay, delaying R service. It works only with weekend headways.
Argument for how it could work on weekdays with the official plan:
With only the E using D3 at the Plaza, it would be pretty easy to accomodate Gs exiting the relay, even during the rush, without delaying express service. The V,G, and R would only have to share tracks for the station itself. But the E and V both would use D4, and the V would be switching from D4 to D2 while the G has to switch from D2 to D4 to get to D5. Not efficient.
With your plan: The E and F would have to be cut in front of in both directions, and their combined headways are too tight to accommodate a train switching in front of them plus the time needed to constantly change the line-ups.
And anyway, you would not have to take 3 trains once the G is cut back. That is why the V is going the 53st way, you would only have to take the G to the V at Court Sq.
The official plan is a good plan. Even though Hillside and Bk express is not addressed, it is still a great improvement.
So why don't they run the G to Queens Plaza during nights and weekends only?
- Lyle Goldman
I like that idea, but the problem is people would wonder why not on weekdays.
The TA may end up doing just that, since the times the G's transfer at Court Sq would be considered "unsafe" are the same times the V is not running and traffic through the Plaza is at a minimum. I hope this is done.
And anyway, you would not have to take 3 trains once the G is cut back. That is why the V is going the 53st way, you would only have to take the G to the V at Court Sq.
Does the V run 24/7?
The official plan is a good plan.
Good for what? :-)
Four trains, but three will be locals. Here's an idea, instead of improving the commute for the majority of passengers, let's eliminate the E and the R, make the G an express all the way to 179st. This way, none of the Brooklyn G customers will be inconvenienced. The F can be local all the way to 179st, the V will terminate at 121st, and will make skip-stops on the J line.
The hell with the G. The 1000 people who take it every hour are MINOR compared to the 10000 who go to Manhattan. That's the point. The hub of the entire system is MANHATTAN. The system is designed to get people TO and FROM the hub most effectively, not between the outlying areas. If it were designed to move peoplke between outlying areas, there would be more outer-boro lines than the G.
-Hank
They are both benefits and problems with the MTA plan.
Benefits:
Running the F line through the 63rd tunnel will reduce over crowding and provide a faster ride for passengers using this line above 71st Street if their destination is 6th Avenue.
Running the V line through the 53rd tunnel will give local passengers a one-way ride to Manhattan via the 53rd Street tunnel.
Problems:
The E line will become increasingly overcrowded. Overcrowded trains causes delays, delays, delays. The V line doesn't help this problem, but actually makes it worse for people heading to Roosevelt Avenue and beyond.
The R line which also serves as a local service along Queens blvd will not be affected directly by these changes. However, I assume passengers who normally use the R over the G (because it doesn't go anywhere), will make the V their new line. Let see...
Solution:
Plain and simple! The E line will have to run more often (I WOULD LOVE THAT! since I use this line into Jamaica alot and to connect with the J at sutphin blvd) to deal with the overcrowding problem caused by passengers (you can say the V line too) who prefer the express over the local.
This is just a sample of what type service I'm talking about. Please read the following:
E - 18 some of these trains can be sent to 179th Street on the express track.
V - 12
F - 12
R - 10
hahaahaa N - 15
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Arrived shortly after 2100 hours and heading off to the East with Loco 81, RD334 (ex R-15), Loco 66, 6390-89-88-87-86, and Loco 902 at the rear. Expect that 6456-60 will be delivered tomorrow.
Correction on the Delivery Page: 6476-80 have NOT been delivered, that was actually 6376-80.
-Stef
I saw this delivery around 9:20 last night.I was riding a northbound Dyre Avenue train, 6386-90 was on the middle track just south of East180th street.
Yes, they passed Sutter-Rutland Rd around 1930 hours last night. I spotted them on my way home from work.
That's them. One of these days I'd like to get pix of a delivery in progress....
-Stef
...hey, Stef, I'm TRYING...I'm TRYING....puff, puff, wheezzz, cough (out of breath from trying to chase them down earlier today).
BMTman
E-Z Pal. Chasing the consist weren't you? They must have known a crazed R-142 fan was coming so they headed for the hills and hid the 142s from view.
-Stef
Just delivered, right on the dot at 2100 hours. Same locomotives as yesterday, Loco 81 and RD334 (ex R-15), as well as Loco 66 lead the charge as they pulled 6460-59-58-57-56, with Loco 902 in the trailing position. Off to the barn at East 180th St they go!
A question: If the NY and A locomotive was pushing from behind the 142s as the cars were going to Linden Yard, how did they expect to get the 142s through the fence? How far can the NY and A unit travel in Linden Yard before restrictions are imposed?
-Stef
But Stef, Linden always has a loco sitting in the yard. I'd assume that once NY&A gets the cars thru the gates (most likely via a pilot walking along side the delivery to guide the engineer into the yard) the NYCT MOW diesel couples to the R-142's and takes it from there.
BMTman
What locomotive is sitting in the yard? You mean NYCT? Of course. This is an MOW facility. I was curious about the restrictions of NY and A's locos within Transit Limits...
-Stef
I would assume that NY&A don't go past the gate. As a matter of fact, I don't even think their GP-38's can FIT under the top of the fencing at the entrance.
BMTman
I don't think anything was posted about this (been real busy so I don't check msg's quite as often as I would like to), but on Tuesday morning after the snowstorm I was at Ashmont at around 9 AM. There was a double PCC trolley car....one rebuilt and one still in green. The MBTA workers outside of it where reluctant to tell me what happened, so I don't know if the train got stuck, or something else happened. But whatever it was, There were 4 green trolleys behind it, which stranded the Mattapan service for at least a little while. Anyone have more info?
I'm glad my college shuttle bus was running that morning..otherwise I would have been stranded at Mattapan! -Nick
Hadn't heard about that one, but I can't hang out at Mattapan 24/7. What most likely happened is that the first car of the pair had a propulsion or brake problem, so the following car was tacked on to push. Since a rebuild was involved it's unlikely that an attempt to use the MU control was used since only 3265 has coupler blocks and air hoses. The grades around Ashmont are the toughest on the line and without a running start things can get hairy. The rush hour schedule is every five minutes with a 10 minute run time each way, allowing for 10 minutes in delays enroute before the next trip is missed. The four cars backed up indicates at least a 25 minute delay, which is very unusual. I rode from Ashmont to Mattapan at 2 PM and there was no suggestion of any serious problem at the carhouse. A difficult issue for the line is that very few operators are adept at handling push jobs. I have seen minor breakdowns become major delays because a pushing car kept blowing its breaker.
I will ask some of my connections if anyone heard of this delay tonight at the BSRA meeting.
"I will ask some of my connections if anyone heard of this delay tonight at the BSRA meeting."
Great...thank you, Gerry! I'll also be looking foward to hear what is up with those pesky type 8s as well. -Nick
TMNY got its shipment of 2001 Guide to Tourist Railroads and Museums today. Bigger than ever at 1" thick. Get your copy and start planning your rail vacations!
On my way home from doing some overtime (left at 8:00 pm) I noticed a number of parking meters on Court Street with official police notices that parking will not be allowed on Tuesday, Feb 13th. The notes stated that the spots are being reserved for the film crew of the TV series "Third Watch".
This block of Court Street is between Schermerhorn and Livingston. This could mean that they might be using the Court Street station for some kind of subway scene, since the 'freight entrance' to the Transit Museum is right at the corner.
BMTman
Yea Brooklyn! It's about time. It gets a little sickening when you see a show about New York and it's Manhattan, Manhattan, Manhattan. I hear the borough is also getting a minor league baseball team, and some neighborhoods are making a comeback. That is very good news to hear. Just about all of my relatives are natives of Brooklyn.
According to the PA's web site, that is what the fare collection methood will be. So the PA and NYCT can get along with using the same card.
Sorry if this was posted before.
What about unlimited cards?
Peace,
ANDEE
Unlimited cards aren't accepted on express buses. Maybe they won't take them on Airtrain.
Except for the 30 day Express Bus card for $120.
And will we get the $1.50 discount for a transfer. X-Bus is only an additional $1.50 if you transfer to it and a free transfer from it.
On Second thought (not 2nd Ave) this is stupid. Airtran connects with LIRR and LIRR does not take Metrocard so you still need CASH...
DUH
You don't need cash (cash sux), you can use a credit or debit card.
Since Airtrain is a modern system, as opposed to the 19th Century Fare Collection LIRR, it will use farecards, why create a proprietary system?
And the Airtrain also goes to Howard Beach where there is ONLY THE SUBWAY and most people coming in via Jamaica will use the Subway, not the LIRR anyway.
Yes but the purpose of Airtrain was to get to JFK easy from Midtown. LIRR to Jay then Airtrain to JFK. Since LIRR does not take Metrocard you still need TWO forms of payment be it Metrocard and cash, credit or debit card. Two forms of payment for one "modern" trip. SORRY PA falls on their face once more!!
The subway still wins. It's cheaper, and connects to far more points than the LIRR ever will. And you can transfer from another line. If you need to get to Penn Station, you'd have to take the subway, why bother changing to the LIRR?
And anyway, why does the PA fall on their face? Would you prefer they come up with a proprietary fare based system? AirCard maybe?
No I would perfer that they had direct AirTrain service to Manhattan, a one seat ride. The subway connection is an after thought if you ask me. The extra fare will be charged to/from LIRR so you can still go cheap via the A to Air(train)... >G<. Maybe you'll get a $1.50 credit as a transfer.
The connection with LIRR should be able to by a ticket on LIRR that covers the cost of AirTrain. The PA is designing this so but they are one onto themselves and won't consider the riders on the LIRR from Manhattan and LI.
Does anyone out there know the name and possibly website or street address of a decent authorized uniform supplier/shop for NYCTA Subway conductor/motormen uniforms and badges? I'm an avid collector, and plus I'm 'bout to get the call anyway, and this way I'll be ready!!!
Peace and Thanx in advance, Thomas :>
If you are called, you'll get enough uniforms from the TA.
Hope so, thanks a bunch. . .thomas:>
if i had won the lottery, i would let donna Karan make 10 of mine, custom made. i would be the sexiest transit worker in the system! lol.
LMAO!! And would the winter policeman's hat be 100% real mink? But then if you won the lottery, you could conceivably open up your own mini-transit company yourself, and be prescribing uniforms for yourself instead of buying your own ones!!! Peace, Thomas:>
TA uniforms are distributed via a contracted mail order company in Tennessee.
In order to purchase uniforms from outside stores within NYC, you'd have to show TA I.D., and that's if they carry them.
Be patient Thomas, you'll be swimming in uniforms in no time!
A T/O I know that's currently in training received 10 shirts (5 shortsleeve, 5 longsleeve), and 6 pair of pants plus a "dress pair,"
amongst other items.
I've noticed last evening, that the R-142's are coming in at a fast rate, in fact the section of the Unionport Yard is getting full are they going to run out of room.and when are we going to see some of these trains in service.I was out looking for the R-142A's last night while riding the Dyre Avenue redbird to Brooklyn, didnt see any but saw a R-36WF, and an interesting mix of R-36 mainline and R-36WF.In fact the first two cars were R-36 mainline, six R-36WF and two R-36 mainline.
i've seen what you mean. unionport yard is full of R-142's. no redbirds. only one R-62A. i also wonder when they are gonna run those things. i assume that the reason they aren't running today on the 6 because of rumors that they are malfuctioning before they even leave the yard, and for the 2 line, it is a mystery. on the 2 i assume that 6301-10 was taking off the line to fix the blinking of the interior lights in the cars, that periodically turn on and off, however the train ran problem free. also 6411-20 is at 207th for inspection for a defective trip cock and to inspect the trucks for cracks. (heard from post of fellow subtalker) 6311-20 i don't know what is up with that one. hopefully they are taking off that grimey baseball decor.
Aye! Let me tell you. 6311-20 passed through 207th Street during the week, but weren't in the overhaul shop. It turns out most of what was the World Series theme is now gone. The Subway Series 2000 labels are off the train, as is nearly all of the baseball team logos. As for the ends, the pinstripes are slowly coming off. The storm doors no longer have pinstripes while the rest of the car end is still covered at least for the moment.
6411-15 were inside 207th St earlier in the week, now it's 6416-20. 6336-40 came back in for a second time one day. Oh yes, did I say in addition to the 142s piling up at Unionport, there are 3 or 4 sets at 207th Street Yard?
-Stef
yeah for the pin stripes coming off! 3 sets at 207? why? mechanical hiccups? inspections? what?
Modifications, perhaps...... If the mechanism that keeps the speed down is breaking, they'd better get to work on fixing it right away.
Give it time! The cars are buggy now, but I sincerely believe they will improve as time passes.
-Stef
In the commercial arcade at the 53rd/Fifth station, there is a coffee shop called, appropriately, the E F Coffee Shop (complete with the blue and orange route indicators).
If the F uses 63rd Street and is replaced by the V through 53rd Street, this coffee shop's name will be deceptive. Changing the name will incur unnecessary expense, and nobody's ever heard of a "covvee" shop.
Basically, this means that the V plan can never be implemented.
:)
LOL...ya think the ta cares about that...
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe they can add the word "JaVa" to the sign...
Ok, at 179 St/Hillside the wall's stripes are orange and dark blue. This was most likely meant to represent the 8th Ave AS WELL AS 6th Ave service running there. But when the Archer connection opened, the TA wasn't hesitant about removing the 8th Ave-179 St service! I don't think they care about coFFEE, and would never let something like that affect their decision!
Here is a new idea that should be considered for the 63rd St Connector plan.
Since there are two F trains that run during rush hours, one to Coney Island & the other to Kings Highway, one the F train marked Coney Island & run through the 63rd St Connector at all times. The V train marked Kings Highway will operate through the 53rd St Tunnel weekdays only but the V train will operate to Kings Highway rush hours & off peak on weekdays, the V train will terminate at 2nd Av.
Both the F & V train will continue to operate express in Queens & local east of Forest Hills.
The G train will remainas as it is today.
If any subtalk has any commens on my, plan, please post your questions.
too many trains through 53rd, and too few through 63rd.
That may be OK if you had end destination signs and side signs that would keep the destination showing constantly, but different messages being flashed such as is the case now would simply confuse passengers. And if your plan causes the need for additional cars, I'll repeat what I have said several times already: They don't have enough cars because the TA hoped to have the R143's running by the time the extension opened and that is not going to be.............All along I knew you weren't follo and everyone here should be convinced of this. All he did was ask questions and never made a contribution to the board. You do.
... and the real Follo never responded to the same thread. It was really clear it's not the same person.
Your plan sounds pretty good, though may I add a few suggestions for rush hours:
1. F express in Queens, Rs extended to 179. To silence complaints: More TPH stop at your station than before (But we don't want to transfer at Parsons) then wait for the V (but it's too infrequent) then take the R.
2. F express from Smith-9 to Church Ave both directions, G extended to Church. See above to silence complaints.
Was Houston Street widened when the IND line was placed there? On the south side of the street you can see buildings backs appearing originally not designed to face the street.
Arti
Yes.
I assume the widening goes to the FDR because they felt like extending it past Essex Street.
West of 6th, Houston Street was supposed to be reversed to go eastbound (it is currently westbound), with eastbound traffic directed onto a new Verazanno Street, that would run from Houston/6/Bedford to Varick/Clarkson/Carmine/7 South (crossing Downing along the way). Westbound traffic would then reach West Street via Clarkson (railfan relevance: the northern end of the St. John's Park Freight Terminal).
Houston Street was widened in the late 1920s, at the same time the Holland Tunnel was built, to provide an east-west crossing in Lower Manhattan for cars and trucks going to and from Manhattan and New Jersey (the idea was vehicles going between Brooklyn and New Jersey would use Canal or the Grand/Kenmare/Delancey connection to get to the Manny B or Willie B).
That's why the BMT Broadway and IRT Lex lines do not have stations at Houston Street, because it was a (relatively) minor cross street during the first two decades of the century. After Houston was widened for cars, city subway planners immediately took advantage of the newly-widened street to run the IND Sixth Ave. tracks down. The link to the No. 6 local at Bleeker was only done after the platform was lengthened in the 1950s and they just had to knock a wall down to get to the IND mezzanine.
Why was Houston widened only to 6th (which was built exclusively for the IND)?
To go uptown on the east side tunnel traffic from the Holland Tunnel was supposed to be channeled onto Sixth Ave. near Canal and head northbound to Houston, from where it would travel east. Traffic headed to New Jersey from the east side of Manhattan would continue through to Varick, and then turn south to the Holland Tunnel entrance (though of course when the Holland Tunnel was built the north-south avenues were two-way, so drivers could have headed south on Sixth Ave. from Houston, but would still have to get over to Varick to reach the tunnel entrance).
As far as why Houston Street was chosen, it was probably because it did go all the way across the island (unlike Spring or Prince which dogleg into Stanton and Rivington streets) and the fact the east side grid begins just north of Houston.
Looks like everone was confused on how to get to Queens this morning. My D train C/R said the E wasn't running 8th Ave. The N trains are terminating 42nd/Broadway (nice folding table they setup for the Dispatcher hehe). Take the 7 train transfering to the N shuttle to Astoria. 7 had a BIE at 5th Ave Flushing boud and that C/R said to take the E.
So there is no 60th Street tunnel service, only the E on 53rd St and the R is going through the 63rd St and poor old G is OPTO to Court Sq. RIGHT??
I should have arrived at work at 7:45, got in at 8:20, cutting into my time and a half pay!!!
[I should have arrived at work at 7:45, got in at 8:20, cutting into my time and a half pay!!! ]
I see that you're pretty productive at work :-)
Arti
Yo, coffee break. And now it's lunch >G<
Was the dispatchers table at TSQ a WWf model??????? The weekend G trains are not OPTO right now. This is so announcements can be made while the train is in motion of the availiable transfers at Court Sq and so that there is and extra body to answer questions.
I thought it was because the local tracks at the Plaza couldn't be used, therefore the G can't do it's train switch from 4 to 6 cars Monday morning. Better to keep the 6 car trains all weekend.
I hope it was a WWF model. The reason is that if there was a dumb dispatcher there, someone would chokeslam through it. BTW, ever notice the Spanish announcers table always gets broken first followed by Jim Ross and Lawler.
seems to be working.
>>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/02/10/MNW15153.DTL<<
I remember I was on the N line and some girl got caught with no pass and they wrote her a ticket. POP on a bus? Never heard of anything like that. Any other systems do anything like that?
The RATP buses in Paris, France use POP. Over there you can enter either on the front or back door (an exterior button is available for the rear door) and you place your ticket in the cancelling machine to validate it. If paying by cash you must enter via the front door. And yes, ticket inspectors ride the buses. The French SNCF (Banlieue) trains also use the POP system. With SNCF, you cancel your ticket at the machine on the platform before you board. In fact, inspectors ride all trains in France including the Paris Metro, even though you pass through turnstiles to enter it.
To those who sent me their names & addresses for the museum letter. You will be receiving copies of the letter sent to the address you gave me.
To clear up a point of confusion, you do not need to sign these and send them back or anything like that.
The letter I sent the museum had a list of everyone's name and address in a list, with the word "Signed," before the list.
The copies I sent to you all were just for your own reference, to see what the final printed copy looked like.
-Dave
Got it yesterday. Thanks Dave!
Got it direct from the Lehman Brahs.. >;)
Thanks, DP.
(Old envelopes. I don't work there anymore. After their divestiture from AMEX the old stationery was being tossed...)
Dave Pirmann,
Got the letter 2 days ago. Great job, I hope they take us seriously.
BTW - How many names were compiled for the petition ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Oh! Good question. There were 42 signatures on the final letter.
-Dave
the streets are much dirtier than usual, cops arrive on the seen of the crime later, houses in queens are settling because of a sewage system that is being delayed on maintenance, and the teachers are leaving. Whats the cause? mainly because he is leaving office in eleven months and because he will not give the workers a pay increase after a 2 billion dollar surplus. he is upset over the issue. SERVES HIM RIGHT!!!
I love the title to this thread. 'bout time he got it in the end for a change...:-O
BMTman
(The streets are much dirtier than usual, cops arrive on the seen of the crime later, houses in queens are settling because of a sewage system that is being delayed on maintenance, and the teachers are
leaving. Whats the cause?)
The cause is all the money goes to public employees hired before 1980, with their rich Tier 1 pensions and other perks, just enhanced. For new hire, public employment is just not competitive with the private sector. The pay stinks, and now the pension stinks too. We're still paying for the past.
Can someone post a list of the best movies with extensive subway/el
footage, besides "French Connection", "Money Train" and "Streets Of Fire", that's currently available on DVD? I prefer movies that are rated PG or PG-13, but I will settle for some good R rated movies that have minimal graphic violence. I am starting a massive collection of transit oriented movies and documentaries on DVD. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Obviously the Taking of the Pelham 123 which is available on DVD.
-Harry
www.zdeno.com
Sounds like you haven't seen the movies list.
-Dave
Hi!
I found this website and it is great. Was (I guess is) a railfan when I grew up in Brooklyn. I now live in San Francisco.
I visited NYC for the first time in many, many years a few weeks ago and what a change! Funny I still remember most of the lines and the stations!
I used to live off of the Sheepshead Bay Station. I did get the chance to go back there. I rode the "Q" express train. I remember that line as a kid. Since when have they run expresses again? I remember taking that long "D" local to Manhattan a lot.
Reading thru some of the posts, I see some changes in store for my old Brighton line. What are they? I plan to go back again sometime this summer to visit.
ScottinSF
Just what we need on this website---another Brighton Man. Ever heard of the Sea Beach? We need some more of those on this site to give me some backup. Stay tuned and watch Brighton Beach Bob and I have a go at it. We have a blast. Since you are a Californian, welcome aboard. San Francisco, eh? I hope you haven't become a Giants fan. If you were a Mets rooter and have gone over, that's heresy. But if you were a Yankee fan and changed, well-----bless you my boy.
What line serves the seabeach?
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Thanks Sea Beach Fred. But what about the future changes to the Brighton? Do you also know when it will change so this summer when I visit I can take the right line.
By the way, I was a Mets fan growing up in the 60s and early 70s in Sheepeshead Bay. Then I went out to California to college and became a Giants fans. I still am and have seasons tixs at Pac Bell. I have hated the Mets since they traded Tom Seaver in 1977.
ScottinSF
They are planning to use TWO "Q" services on the Brighton Line once they shut down the north (6th Avenue) side of the Manhattan Bridge. One will have a bullet (round) "Q" and will be populated by R68 cars; this will be the Brighton Local. The other will have a Diamond "Q" and will be populated by Slants; this will be the Brighton Express.
The "B" train will become the "W" train in Brooklyn.
"B" and "D" trains will run between their respective north terminals and the 34th St-6th avenue station. There will also be a new "V" service between Queens and the Lower East Side, via 6th Avenue.
wayne
Thanks Wayne,
The Q goes from Coney Island (I guess) to ?? if they shut down the north side of the Manhattan Bridge? My guess is Broadway Local via tunnel to 57 st - 7 Ave if that is the case.
ScottinSF
Wayne: If both of those Q trains go over the Manny B and my Sea Beach is still marooned in the lowers depths of Manhattan I must just become a terrorist. Only one of those trains should go over the Bridge, leaving room for my train to tranverse its old haunting grounds. What do you thin of that?
Hate the Mets???? That, sir, is not music to my ears. The Giants? Oh well, time for them to get back to earth. Maybe the Dodgers out here will dethrone them, but I'd rather see them bleed each other to death. I do have to take in some games at Pac Bell Park. I can see it's a tremendous baseball field.
Go to Pacific Bell Park - it's better than all the others combined.
ScottinSF
I heard they're all sold out. If I took a trip to San Francisco could you get me tickets to the game? Naturally I'd pay for them and I would like to see my Mets up there, and also see the Giants and the Dodgers play. That still is a great rivalry.
Hey Sea Beach,
Try www.sfgiants.com general public tixs go on sale Sat Feb 17.
ScottinSF
Thanks! I'll do that. I plan on visiting your fair city this summer.
When are you coming to DC? Hopefully I can put you up for a weekend. visit the old Civil War Battlefields. You are a history buff, I live near a town called Winchester that changed hands 82 times during the war, 5 times in one day.
Steve was just having a memory lapse when he did that. Ask him what was the first train he ever rode on, he'll tell you it wasn't your extinct D Brighton but my very much alive, though wounded, Sea Beach. Stuff that into your pipe and smoke it, and, please, put that other cannibas stuff away. You've been on that for too long.
Nope it was the Q, back those days the D was the Culver
All right, you two. You've got me in stitches again.
The very first train I ever rode on in NYC was an N of shiny new R-32s on July 21, 1965. I honestly don't remember if we rode on any Brighton trains on either the 21st or 22nd. The only possibility would have been a QT from 34th St. to Whitehall St. on the 21st, as we went from the Empire State Building to the Battery for a boat ride to Liberty Island. The only other train I remember for sure was a TT of possibly R-32s. No Triplexes. We took another N into Manhattan on the 22nd, this time taking the three-hour Circle Line cruise around the island. Try as I might, I don't recall skipping any stations, even though we definitely did. OTOH I vivdly remember going across the Manhattan Bridge - on the north side tracks.
Fred's going to love this: I rode on the Sea Beach portion long before I ever rode on the Brighton. My first ride on the open cut Sea Beach was in July of 1971 on an N of R-42s. It wasn't until the late 80s that I finally rode on the Brighton line itself, and have been on it during most of my recent visits to the city. This past October, I sampled both. In all fairness, I like them both.
The first train I remember was sometime in the early60s when I was a tot and lived in East Flatbush. It was the IRT 7th Avenue express from Utica Ave to Hoyt St (where my mom worked) - we call it the 2 (I think it was the 2 then also).
Then we moved to Sheepshead Bay in 1965 and my favorite was the Q - Brighton Exp.
I never took the Sea Beach in Brooklyn until my visit a month ago - was going from Coney Island (had to stop at Nathans) back to Manhattan and wanted to take something other than the D train.
By the way, the Q Express is back and I love it!
ScottinSF.
Well you rode the Sea Beach. That means you're an ok guy, even if you did desert the Mets for those soon-to-be- has been Giants.
Sorry Fred,
The Sea Beach ride in Brooklyn was very unimpressive, except for that express run in the tunnel under 4th ave I believe. All that express track capacity unused, and all those stops did not make a quick run from Coney to Midtown. The Q was better.
As for the Giants we will see. At least I don't have to put up with a poor excuse for a manager in Bobby V or those airplanes during games. Personally I don't expect the Giants to make it to the playoffs but you never know.
By the way, the Giants - Mets series here is sold out, unless you know season tickholders like me....
ScottinSF
Well how about the Giants and the Dodgers? That is still a good rivalry. Maybe I can bribe you to sell me a few tickets. Sorry to hear about Bill Rigney. I always considered to be a good guy, even though I disliked him when I was a kid because I was a Brooklyn fan.
And you guys had better re-sign Barry Bonds. You don't want to have happen what has transpired here between Gary Shefield and the Dodgers.
Sea Beach,
The Bonds situation might spill onto the field. It can get ugly.
No one expects resigning anytime soon.
The Mets tickets are in my hands unless you pay lots of $$$. :-)
I hate the Dodgers.....a reminent of Dad's dislike of them leaving Brooklyn (he was a Dodgers fan). Giants - LA is a great rivalry and all those 9 games here are sold out here too.
ScottinSF
I've salted some money away for such an occasion. So don't be surprised if I put the arm on you for a few tickets this summer.
He said he wanted to try it, just like I wanted to try the Slow Beach Last may from Boro Hall to Nathans. I made sure I rode the Brighton Back though. That is when the R beat the N between 36-59 and the N was an Exp.
Na na na na na, I don't believe you, and if you are telling the truth, I refuse to accept it. BTW, take a look at my suggestions for your new plates. You might be impressed. Have a safe trip.
For the record, I don't actually remember seeing an "N" on the front route sign of that train of R-32s all those years ago. I came to the conclusion it was an N based on the fact that the upper side destination signs said, "57th St.", backlit in green. Back then, the T went to Astoria during weekdays, but didn't operate during middays. It was approaching noon when we set out from my cousin's house overlooking the BQE to the subway and Manhattan.
My first glimpse of the Q growing up was on an R-32 I believe. It had "Broadway-Brighton" on the sign. I don't remember what cars they had on the 7th Avenue express about 1963 or 1964, the first time I remember going on the subways.
ScottinSF
Sounds good to me Steve but poor Bob is probably fulminating at the mouth at your alleged treachery. But as a man of class I knew you saw the light early. BTW Bob is coming out here for two days in March and I'm hoping we can hook up for some fun.
I'm about twice the distance you are Fred. I usually get to the Big City once a year.
--Harry
Are you in Hawaii? Or upper Canada? Twice my distance from New York really mystifies me. Just where are you Q?
ScottinSF,
What year did you depart NYC ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Hi Bill "Newkirk",
I left Brooklyn in 1978 to go to college - went some in upstate NY and some in the Bay Area. I have lived here in SF full-time since 1997. SF is great fun! By the way the "subways" here are a joke. But I love the SF Giants!
ScottinSF
You love the SF Gianta? Well that is your hard luck. Notice how my Mets kicked the hell out of your boys in the playoffs? You should have never junked the Mets. You can still root for the Mets and live in California. I do. But then, different strokes for different folks. And my wife has been unable to get me to change over to the Dodgers. I can't stand those guys, even though I once loved them when I lived in New York and they played in Brooklyn.
It looks like NY&A is getting ready to delivery them to Linden right now. They just moved the flatcars out of the way. I'd assume the R142s will be leaving Fresh Pond in about 15-30 minutes.
Shawn.
The R142s just left Fresh Pond for Linden. NY&A switcher 154 is pushing this time, as opposed to pulling them like last time.
Shawn.
Are there track maps that highlight the routes taken in the delivery of these R142s, ...up to the Brooklyn IRT??
The Fresh Pond yard, I'm assuming you're not talking about where the M R42s are kept.
And any maps of Linden Yard as well? Otherwise I guess I should go get myself a few books...
Thanks.
Ok here's how it goes. CP Rail brings the R142s down over the Hellgate Bridge and on to the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch. Right around my house here they reverse and take a switch that leads them in to New York & Atlantic Railway's Fresh Pond Yard.
The R142s are delivered on top of flatcars that have like rails on them and also stands that bolt onto the R142s so they don't fall off. At Fresh Pond Yard, they have built a ramp with rails. The rails on the ramp meet up with the rails on the flatcars. The R142s are unbolted and gently rolled off the flatcars. This takes a while and required two locos. One at the bottom of the ramp to pull the R142s forward and one at the end pushing the flatcars up to the ramp. After each one is unloaded they back up the entire consist, cut away the flatcar that was unloaded, move it out of the way then get the next R142 into position. I'm not sure how they're coupling the R142s together. They are delivered as singles. NY&A might acutally be installing their link bars.
Once this is completed, the flatcars are coupled back together. They pull the flatcars out of the yard and dump them somwhere further down on the Bay Ridge line. Then they come back for the R142s. The R142s are taken down the Bay Ridge line towards East New York. There is a track connection from the LIRR Bay Ridge line into the NYCTA Linden Shops. NY&A blows their horn, someone opens the gates and the R142s are then on NYCTA property. The NY&A loco comes back to Fresh Pond Yard. NYCTA loco pick up the consist from there. There is a wye conenction from the Linden Shops to the 3 line at Junius Street and the L line near Livonia Avenue. The wye track has no 3rd rail so diesel locos are required.
The R142s are taken along through Brooklyn and switched onto the Lexington Avenue line. I'm not sure about where they finally end up. I guess they end up in East 180th Yard.
Shawn.
Thanks Shawn... very descriptive.
I don't have any maps that I could use to show you the route they use to get to the Linden shops. I'll keep looking online for something useful.
Shawn.
Exactly! Let me add that, CP brings them out of Plattsburgh and comes down Metro North's Hudson Line, and around the Harlem River by the track conbnection that takes CP into Oak Point Freight Yard. With the CP engines now facing north after going around the river, they have to run around their consist to head south over the bridge to Fresh Pond.
You're assumption is correct, the R-142s are link barred at Fresh Pond. How else can these cars travel together on the way to Linden Yard and ultimately East 180th Street Yard in the Bronx?
-Stef
Good and clear explanation, Shawn.
I couldn't have said it any better myself.
BMTman
Yeah, Shawn, NY&A seems to do it like clockwork every Saturday around 12:30 in the afternoon.
BTW, I was hoping to position myself for some GREAT "coming-up-the-line-into-Linden Shops" pictures, but because of a friggin' GO on the Canarsie Line -- weekend shuttle service between Rock Pkwy & Atlantic Ave. wrong-railing on the northbound track -- I was unable to get their on time (1pm) to witness the move. Adding to the problem was the fact that the southbound Livonia platform (best place to get shots -- besides the walkway/crossover) was closed for construction.
If the weather behaves, I'll try again next weekend to be there around 12:30 in anticipation of the move.
BMTman
Just posted on the Associated Press wire. One again, Abe is following right behind John Lindsey.
Anyone riding the subway back in the 1970s knows the system really started to hit bottom in the last years of the Lindsey administration and the first years of Beame's term as mayor. It will be interesting to see how that and other things releated to the city's bankruptcy play out in the Sunday papers...
{{ By KATHERINE ROTH
Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK (AP) - Abraham D. Beame, the diminutive accountant who served as the 104th mayor of New York through the darkest days of the city's 1975 fiscal crisis, died Saturday, a family spokesman said. He was 94.
Beame died of complications after open heart surgery at New York University Medical Center, said Howard Rubenstein. Beame had been hospitalized there since July of last year, Rubenstein said.
Beame was the city's first Jewish mayor and the second ex-mayor to die in the last two months. His City Hall predecessor, John V. Lindsay, died in December.
Beame spent his last years defending his reputation from those who said he was a bean-counter who couldn't count - a man who, as city budget director, comptroller and finally as mayor from 1974 through 1977, failed to prevent a fiscal catastrophe.
The crisis began when banks refused to buy city notes because the city could not provide enough information about uncollected real estate taxes.
Before it was over, municipal job rolls, salaries and services were cut and a mountain of debt was made manageable by a complex partnership of union pension funds, banks and the state and federal governments.
The city was "well on the road to recovery" by the time he left office on Jan. 1, 1978, Beame insisted. "I inherited a budget gap of $1.5 billion, and when I left we had a surplus of $200 million," he said.
Beame was an unlikely politician. He was 5-foot-2, soft-spoken and utterly without charisma - everything his predecessor, Lindsay, was not.
Lindsay's movie star good looks and political savvy helped quell riots in the city during the tumultuous '60s.
Beame was born March 20, 1906. While growing up in New York City, Beame worked in the family restaurant and earned extra money by knocking on doors to wake neighbors for work. Inspired by Horatio Alger books, he worked eight hours at a factory while attending high school.
Despite his size, he was known for his toughness - his nickname was "Spunky."
Beame's administration will always be remembered as the time the bill came due for decades of profligate government.
In his own defense, Beame said he had warned for years against accounting gimmicks that hid the city's true financial condition and against using capital funds for day-to-day expenses. He said he cut 60,000 city jobs.
At crunch time in 1975, Beame raised the transit fare from 35 cents to a half dollar, closed firehouses and imposed tuition on what had been a free City University.
Beame's hopes of a second term were dashed by his third-place finish, behind Edward I. Koch and Mario Cuomo, in a six-candidate Democratic primary.}}
Geez, no disrepect to the dead, but I thought that ol' geezer would outlast us all!!!
BMTman
John Maynard Keynes, defending deficit spending against a question in the long run, argued that "in the long run we are all dead."
Well, Lindsay and Beame are dead, but the debt lives on with the rest of us. The Pataki/Giuliani borrowing will outlive them as well. Beame took the fall for Lindsay's decisions, but Lindsay's mark is still on the city, some for good but mostly for bad, three decades later.
Well, at least there haven't been any garbage or school teacher strikes lately..... remember those from the late 60s? Gheeezzz.
In yesterdays paper & on the TV news it seems that the ANGELS FLIGHT cable did not break but some unidentified "mystic mystery" caused the cable to not support the ANGELS FLIGHT car than ran down hill unattached into her sister car with no cable broken off !?? ( so said the reports ) .....
Information as to even what anybody even THINKS as to why the recent accident happened is still a GREAT MYSTERY as it was the day it happened! Will we ever get the real truth on this or continue to get the runaround on this? The all mighty NTSB does not even have a clue ??
If the rest of the Los Angeles M.T.A is run like this we are in BIG TIME serious trouble !!!!
geeeezz !!
It was reported out here that what happened was several "loops" of cable fell off the end of the spool ... for reasons unknown of course.
you got that right !! now, my BIG question is about how well maintained the rest of the rolling stock is with the
L.A. ""M.T.A."" ??? it really leaves a lot to be desired here !!
"now, my BIG question is about how well maintained the rest of the rolling stock is with the
L.A. ""M.T.A."" ??? it really leaves a lot to be desired here !! "
If the crash was caused by a bad cable then the rolling stock was not the problem. Also is angels flight run by the m.t.a.?
No Angels Flight has NOTHING to do with LACMTA.
"No Angels Flight has NOTHING to do with LACMTA."
Why do I think that somehow sallam will use the Angles flight crash a reason that the R-142s are awfull
Again, please STOP using the FOLLO name everytime I post a messege on subtalk. I told everyone on this post that I am NOT this FOLLO guy.
So please have some consideration for me.
Thank you.
Friday while trainning on a 142 they said most of the trains were
off the road. The reason is the govenor caps witch control the speed
of the train kept breaking. They had a reroute and a 142 on the
Lex express hit 60 mph between 59st and 86st.
Look like Rushbirds will stay for another few years & that is why i haven't see R142 & R142A for weeks now. So how long they going to put all the R142 cars back in services?
Peace Out
David Justiniano
www.geocities.com/justin2669/NYCTransiTrans.html
so thats why they are out of service! why can't the TA get a chip like in GM vehicles?
Are you an official spokesperson for the MTA? If not, what are you?
There must be a way to keep the trains from hitting 60 MPH without using the governor caps. Isn't there a way to install a resistor somewhere which will not allow more than a certain amount of current to go to the traction motors. Also they might be able to install some kind of "rev counter" so that the electric traction motors cannot turn beyond a certain set speed.
BMTJeff
"They had a reroute and a 142 on the
Lex express hit 60 mph between 59st and 86st."
Now that's RAPID TRANSIT !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't really think that this is a problem given that the signalling system itself prevents trains from going to fast because if they did they'd reach the next signal before it cleared and would get tripped. I'm sure that in some remote areas or on express runs where stations are far enough apart the ability to reach speeds of 60 mi/hr could be very useful.
-Robert King
If that were correct, Union Square, Williamsburg Bridge, and 53rd/5thAve (1978) wrecks would not have happened.
The problem is it takes time for a train to go BIE. If you're going 60 and get tripped, the train will still be moving and may hit the train in front before fully stopping. The signal system can't handle fast speeds.
The problem is it takes time for a train to go BIE.
Let's see - the brake signal is pneumatic - it travels at the speed of sound 1100 ft/sec. So, in 1/2 second all the brakes on an IRT train should be in emergency. Total distance travelled is 45 ft @ 60 mph as opposed to 37.5 ft @ 50 mph.
If you're going 60 and get tripped, the train will still be moving and may hit the train in front before fully stopping.
The "emergency" braking rate for NYCT is only 3.2 mph/sec as opposed to 4.0 mph/sec and higher for most of the industry. So, let's see what happens with better brakes at higher speed vs. NYCT standards.
Inital speed: 60 mph | 50 mph
Braking rate: 4 mph/s | 3.2 mph/s
Time to stop: 15 sec | 15.625 sec
Dist travelled: 661 ft | 574.22 ft
Block size varies but system is designed to keep 725 ft separation after emergency stop. So both trains would avoid a collision with current signals.
The signal system can't handle fast speeds.
The signal system is fine it's the brakes.
Let me rephrase my statement:
The signal system combined with the current breaking system cannot handle fast speeds. I'm sure back in the day when we had industry standard brakes this wasn't a problem (as I recall when the cars were GOHed they were given less powerful brakes to provide smoother stopping).
There's another BIG problem with the 142s, and another BIG problem
with the 142As right now (unrelated problems), which together
have the whole fleet sidelined.
Well, genious, don't be bashful...tell us what those problems are! -Nick
"Go train, go.. go FAST"... into obscurity.
Gentlemen, once more the redbirds prove themselves more reliable
then those modern R-142's, like everything else old.
GO,GO,GO REDBIRDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There was a G.O. on the L[ 8th ave to Atlantic and single track shuttle from Atlantic to Canarsie] so I got off at Livonia (L) and transferred to the 3 (Junius). The passageway is only an overpass and leads you to the west side of the Canarsie Line Right of Way. There is no current entrance to the 3 at this location. The only trace still visible was a closed mezzanine with no stairs to the street and no trace of dtairs to the plat. The Junius Street entrance is further West. Fromt he open entrance there is no passegway to the L (inside or outside of the paid area.) Arriving on the platform I found no trace of stairs to the former East Mezzanine and believe they must have been behind a door at the East end of both platforms.
I think that the BMT division should go back to using numbers to designate their trains. You can use #1 for the Brighton Beach line. #2 for the Broadway, 4th Ave. local. #3 For the West End line. #4 for the Sea Beach line. #10 for the Myrtle Ave. line. #15 for the Jamaica Line. #16 for the Canarsie line. Maybe you can also extend the use of the numbers to the IND as well.
BMTJeff
This would only lead to mass confusion for the hundreds of thousands of riders each day that use the BMT and IND.
-Harry
www.zdeno.com
harry claims that changing all bmt and ind routes to numbers is bad because:
"This would only lead to mass confusion for the hundreds of thousands of riders each day that use the BMT and IND."
that seems to me to be an excellent reason to make the changes... while we're at it, i would change all the irt routes to letters...
While we're at it, the A train could become #13. After all, it does follow the route of the old Fulton St. El in Brooklyn and Queens.
And the F train could be #5 (Culver).
Also, change the #7 line to #9 (the BMT route number for the Flushing line).
You think anyone in the TA will be listening to us? I doubt it.
I'll drink to that heypaul. The IRT never had numbers on any oftheir low V's when I lived in New York. Almost all the numbers were listed on BMT cars. Why they did what they did has confounded me. I say let the BMT use numbers, the IRT can do the same, or go to letters. We had the numbers first, and besides, who the hell of the BMT aficianados give a hoot in hell about the IRT anyway?
He also forgot Seventh Avenue, Central Park South, East 60th Street, Vesey Street, Church Street, Trinity Place, Whitehall Street, Centre Street and Broad Street.
There's also Fulton Street, Chambers Street, Canal Street, Bowery and Essex Street.
BMTJeff
I know about Canal Street, but Chambers Street, Fulton Street, Bowery and Essex Street? The Nassau Street line stops there, but doesn't run beneath them.
Your e-mail is unavailable.
A burial place for Dishonest Abe's stiff!
After taking an R through the 63rd street tunnel this afternoon I went up to the 7 at 74th/Roosevelt ave for a Flushing bound train.
Got there at around 3:36pm, and waited, and waited for a 7 train. No train came for almost 25 minutes, and the platform grew packed. There were no announcements, and nothing on either 1010 or 880 about 7 train delays. Finally at around 4pm a train pulls in, it is packed, like a sardine can literally. Not everyone can fit in.
I decide to wait for the next train, which was right behind it.
While waiting I realized there must've been a problem, but couldn't they send a train from Flushing (OOS) up the middle to Woodside, have it reverse, then change over to the local track and serve Flushing bound riders from Woodside on east. It would've relieved crowding.
There were plenty of westbound trains. They could've afforded putting one in at Woodside.
Another non related event, in Flushing a trash can was on fire and people just seemed to be going about their business, flames were jumping out of the sides of the can, someone who wasn't aware could've easily been burned (it was on a busy corner). Finally some chinese gentleman brought some water to douse the flames, but it still smoked.
I've seen this several times, only in Flushing. It's times I like those I wish I had a cell phone to dial 911 and call the cops (or fire dept) to put it out.
I have an idea though to notify people of subway conditions. How about using existing wiring in the system to transmit conditions via AM radio, similar to what the state uses on some of it's highways?
...similar "troubles" post.. different day...
..anybody got today's paper?
In that situation I agree some westbound trains should turn back at Woodside to serve Flushing bound riders at 74th St. I've seen this happened before and given it's still winter people can freeze to death up there (overstatement). That is one station that can really benefit from a video camera that will show the crowd conditions to the TA (if there isn't a functional one already).
I've also seen trash bins on corners get set on fire a couple of times myself. It seems like there are some morons in Flushing (repeat offenders?) who find it amusing to set trash bins on fire.
Regarding the "Send a Storm Door to Salaam" fund, to date we have received $0.00 in pledges. Thank you for your suport
What the f*&^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Holy cow! You're a riot Steve. Keep up the good work.
Any chance you'll get some pix of the R-14s getting scrapped?
-Stef
The cars will be moving to 27 track on 2/12. I'll be on vacation all next week. If they are not cut up before I return I'll get some shots. In the meantime, Peter Dougherty took some shot of the cars not so long ago. With his permission, I'll scan them for Dave to post.
Uh, Steve there's two p's in support (sorry for the Pork-like reply)
BTW, I hope to make a contribution to this very worthy fund drive once my tax returns show up...;-)
BMTman
That damn sticky 'PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP' key again.
I'll send $10.00 C'mon you cheap SubTalkers, Send $ to Train Dude. Help The Cause!!!!!!!!!
Steve, I haven't decided yet if you're being serious about this or not, but for whatever it's worth: you get that door, I'll help defray the shipping expenses!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Saw alot of rats at 34th/6th on the IND tracks. There were lots of them, and they were quite large. The rat problem seems to be getting worse, I never saw so many at that station before.
Even thought I saw one scurry across the platform. Betcha sometimes they sneak on trains to go "into the dash" and see their friends at W4th.
Time for Rodenticide!!
Regarding the "Send a Storm Door to Salaam" fund, to date we have received $0.00 in pledges. Thank you for your support
Back in 1994, my wife and I had the pleasure of taking the Mount Washington Cog Railway in New Hampshire and were fortunate enough to have had a "slight derailment" during our ride. The ride isn't for the faint of heart but certainly something museum hounds would absolutely love. At $35.00 per ticket, the price for the Mount Washington Cog Railway was steep, but then so was the way up the mountain to the summit at 6,288 feet. The Cog railway celebrated its 125th year of operation when we were there in 1994.
At first sight, the Cog Railway seemed penny-ante and dinky. A specially designed small coal-burning steam locomotive with its boiler on a pronounced downward tilt pushes a single wooden car up an incredible 37 degree inclined track all the way up the mountain to the very top. Most of the trip is along wooden trestles several feet up from the surface, clinging to the side of the tallest mountain in the northeast.
I love any kind of train, but this oddball design was especially attractive. Before boarding, I noticed the rails were lower and much thinner than standard rails, and the gauge (distance between rails) was also non-standard and even narrower than Irish-gauge.
In between the rails was a steel runner with little horizontal bars welded in place reminiscent of the old supermarket roller conveyors used by trucks to unload large numbers of boxes into the store. The bars were only about 4 inches across and formed a large rack for the Cog locomotive's pinion cog gears which are used to propel the train up and down the mountain safely since the high angle of ascent and descent would never have permitted standard flange wheels to have anything to grip on. Even dumping sand on the rails wouldn't have provided sufficient traction. The design was ingenious!
Reservations are strongly urged by the railway and the office employees were rude and threatening about arriving an hour before departure, saying that if we weren't there on time they'd put through the charges without us getting a trainride. Nice. We made it there more than an hour early. Thus, although we had reserved seats on the 11AM departure, we were seated on the 10AM train.
The train operators themselves were summer hires from MIT, RPI and other engineering colleges. They were all really into playing with this incredible train set and all were very nice folks. Two of the engineers were women which came as a surprise based upon the attitude expressed from the office folks which clearly indicated that the owners of the railway were idiots. These women must have had quite a battle to get at the controls.
Before boarding, I walked up to the cab of the locomotive and was given a quick tour of the cab. Instead of the usual lever-operated controls of an ordinary steam engine, these puppies had valve-wheels about the size of the average home water faucet on pipes on the boiler of the locomotive. A stick was attached to these exterior steam valves which ran through a hole in the front of the cab permitting the crew to rotate the faucets from inside the cab. Bear in mind these are very old locomotives that had been custom built just for this run by ancient tinkerers. It brought to mind the words "cantankerous beastie" coming from the mouth of an engineer on the British "Flying Scotsman" train. It was a delight to behold.
Promptly at 10AM, a shrill shriek eminated from the locomotive behind our single car indicating that soup was on, the boiler was boiling and we were about to be heaved skyward on a steeper angle than a jumbo jet after takeoff. Hot steam bellowed forth along with the black smoke of a roaring coal fire in the belly of the beast behind us. With a noisy lurch, we began our skyward ascent.
The locals there describe the Cog Railway as being "all the thrills of a roller coaster without the speed." Ay-yup! As the train climbs at the breakneck speed of 2 miles per hour, it makes a lot of creaking noises along with the racket of rachets under the car along with the steam locomotive going balls to the wall. For all the quick chugging, one would have expected to be travelling at 100 MPH. The locomotive has four 6 inch diameter cylinders driving each power wheel and cog separately. If one should fail, the other three would still have plenty of power. However, since they were so small, they provided an incredible amount of power to the little 8 inch cog gears that actually move the train through an incredibly high gear ratio.
Through most of the climb, live steam and lots and lots of coal soot travel upward into the coach from the stack which is right behind the car. None of the cinders were burning, and since the engine burns the coal so completely, the soot falls right off and doesn't stain at all. To my mind, it only added to the charm of the ride, though I had to shake my shirt every minute or two to leave the soot outside where I somehow thought it belonged. In the dry, cool air of Mount Washington, even the wisps of steam wafting through seemed dry and not a bother at all.
About 1/3 of the way up the mountain, there is a water tower where they refill the locomotive for the remainder of the trip. Just beyond the water tower stop is a switchback, or miniature siding where the train has to depart from the main track to let another train go past on its way back down. This time however, we were told there would be a delay of unknown amount as there was a worktrain ahead coming down and no one knew where it was or when it was actually going to pass us. We had to wait.
Normally, trains are precisely timed so that the exchange of ownership of the single track is orderly and quick. The work train had thrown a wrench in the schedule this day. For some reason, the crew was unable to raise the work crew on their walkie-talkie, so an impromptu lecture and Q&A session began.
Our guide, a student named Joe from MIT told us about how he worked in the car shop repairing brakes and cleaning out boilers but due to a shortfall of crew, he had been given the task of actually manning the platform on the train and would for the first time in his railroad career perform as brakeman on the way down.
Being a train buff, I figured this would be a great time to examine the unusual switches used by the Cog Railway and see how they were built. From the forward platform of the train, I examined the 7-piece manually operated switch. Instead of having a blade that moves back and forth between one track and the other, the Cog Railway has pieces of track and cog that fold over, push over, or drop out of the way as required, all on hinges.
Cog track and rails actually drop on top of the mainline rails and each piece has to be positioned just right and then chocked in place. Two crew members watch the wheels carefully as they pass over the various pieces of the switch to ensure the train does not derail and fall off the trestles on which the switches are built. It may be a "cob" railway, but it works!
After about 15 minutes of waiting, I was the first to see the steam plume of the descending work train and informed Joe it was coming down any second. In a matter of seconds, a locomotive and improvised flatcar came pounding by with the locomotive hissing at twice the rate ours had climbed at. This train was hauling ass downward at an astonishing 4 MPH. I mean, it was moving!
Once it had cleared the switch, Joe and Jack got back down, we pulled back downhill to the water tower and waited another minute while Joe and Jack reassembled the mainline so we could continue our trip. As soon as the pieces had been put back in place, the train lurched upward again while Joe and Jack watched the wheels as they went over the switch and then jumped on the coach while it continued ever forward and upward.
About halfway up the mountain, with trees and signposts leaning heavily forward (or so the eyes told the brain) was an old wrecked shack called "The halfway house." Joe informed the geese that the shack was there so crews could dry out after a weekend bender. Heh. As we continued to climb, the incline grew sharper and sharper until we all were convinced that our seats would eventually fall backwards into the boiler of the locomotive a mere 6 inches behind the rear windows of the car.
We then passed across a curved trestle they call "Jacob's Ladder" which is nearly 30 feet off the ground. If the train ever derailed here, there would surely be no survivors. It was scary if you actually looked down. Silly me, I did ... (shudder). Just beyond Jacob's ladder was another switchback where a train had been on the siding waiting for us to arrive. We had been delayed by the work train, so we were late. As we came up along side the other train, video cameras and flash cameras came out and we suddenly had celebrity status or something. I vaguely recall waving and mouthing "Hi mom!" as part of my on-camera performance.
After this last switchback, it was on to the summit. By now, the murky skies had cleared and it was actually cold up there. We had by now climbed a complete mile up into the sky and were above the treeline where the only things that were growing on the granite rock were mosses and amazing bonsai-like teeny-tiny pine-tree looking things that were no more than 8 inches tall and wierd little alpine flora. Since I hadn't been drinking, it was obviously a prank when we passed some rocks that had been painted to look like a green frog sticking its tongue out at the train.
Even more steam, soot and smoke was ejected as the locomotive somehow found even more power for the last couple of hundred feet as we saw the summit and observatory come into view. We were almost there as the track seemed to go nearly vertical to the summit station and the end of our ride uphill. Once we arrived (complete with more tourists taking pictures of us), we were informed that we would have only 20 minutes at the summit, so basically "je me TRES souviens" (Get your ass in there and snatch up all the souvenirs as fast as you possibly can or you will have to walk down) was the rule of thumb.
The railroad WILL allow you to stay longer, but you are warned that you are only guaranteed a ride down if you leave on the train you came up on. If you gamble and lose, tough luck. We had wanted to visit the Weather station and perhaps knock on the door of one of the TV and FM transmitter buildings, flash the trusty FCC license and ask to look at the toys up top. No such luck. To get into the weather station, you have to take out a membership in the Mount Washington Observatory and have it processed. The transmitter buildings were unattended since it was summer and the only time they are up there is during the 6-month nonstop shift during the winter when there ain't no way in hell to get up or down the mountain.
So it was back on the train after shooting off a quick postcard to two friends in a near-panic because while we were sitting there trying to get the mountaintop postmaster to get off his ass and sell us the damned stamps, the train started to leave. Apparently inventorying the coinage in front of postal customers while the train departs is a first-class postal priority on the mountain.
I suppose we screwed up by giving the postmaster genuine U.S. currency to handle in the first place. If you ever find yourself wanting to impress friends with Mail posted from the top of Mount Washington, make sure to bring your own stamps on the train. The Postmaster can be fickle and apparently the accepted postal currency up there is beaver skins and blubber, not sawbucks.
Twenty minutes on the mount is not enough time to grab lunch, take in the museum, step on the USGS summit benchmark, visit the Tip-top House (where early settlers stayed), hit the summit house, take the hike around the summit, apply for membership so you can visit the weather station, read the historical markers *and* be able to mail souvenir postcards.
Recognizing that we were train buffs, Joe quietly told us on the way up that he had only once before operated the brakes and that had been blindfolded under the supervision of someone else. This was his very first "solo" flight and he was nervous. Despite this, the threat of no ride down caused us to reluctantly serve as his "test load" along with 48 other people.
On the descent, the ride is largely unpowered. The coach is not physically attached to the engine. Instead there is a bumper on the bottom end of the coach which the engine pushes against going upward, and the coach uses its own brakes with the engine as a kind of bumper on the way down. Therefore, the brakeman's job is an important part of keeping the train under control since apparently the locomotive alone cannot do it by itself.
Braking of the coach involves two rotary wheels, one for the front brake shoes and one for the rear. It takes two people working in cooperation to work the incredibly complex braking system. With the right amount of continuously-changing force applied, the train comes down smoothly and doesn't bump the locomotive too often. The amount of braking required depended entirely on the angle of grade at any given point of the descent. I know *I* wouldn't want that job.
As we descended, the locomotive engineer was clearly nervous as we started to gain a bit too much downward speed from time to time followed by a bit too much braking followed by a clunk when the coach caught back up to the engine. Each time the coach sped up a little too much, the locomotive engineer would try to speed up a bit downhill so the clunks would not be too severe and then once the coach had caught up would apply steam to slow down.
White knuckles were apparently the order of the day as I started getting really nervous. The seats in the coach swing around so you are seated looking down the mountain on the way back down and the clouds below had started clearing out, allowing us to look down to the base of the mountain a mile or so down.
Despite so many frightening thoughts going through my mind at the unusual nature of our trip compared to the norm, I began to become confident as the train continued downward without incident. Despite all the bumps and uneven braking, the wheels hung tenaciously to the track without once suggesting that they had had enough of this. I was breathing easier and beginning to believe that we would indeed still be alive at the end of the day.
As we approached the switchback at the 2/3 level, we eased past the switch and jerked to an abrupt stop. One look at Joe and Jack as they stepped off the platform to go back and throw the switch showed the two of them looked like they had not yet finished watching their lives flash before them. They walked back and manipulated the various track pieces and we backed up onto the siding to allow the next upward bound train to pass by. Again because we were late, it was waiting there for us just below the switchback.
After it passed by, we moved off the switchback, but apparently the braking was a bit too much for the wheels as we bumped the locomotive because the unmistakable sound of railroad ties being chewed by a wheel flange along with staccato bumping from under the car confirmed our worst fears. The coach had derailed and gone off the track on a trestle about 6 feet off the ground.
One of the other passengers noted the face-whitening feeling of a derailed car thumping along the ties and quipped, "I guess we walk from here." The locomotive went into full BIE (Brakes In Emergency) instantly halting our descent without benefit of iron to steer the car and the train came to rest still on the edge of the catwalk along the switch. I hadn't realized how nearly impossible it was to fall off the trestle until I realized that the cogs were still on the cog racks the whole time even though the wheels had left the rails.
Wow! This railroad is a whole lot safer than most people will ever know! Joe told the geese that they had run over a rabbit, but the geese would have none of that story. One yelled out, "shoulda used it as grease." Others chuckled as Joe and the engine crew broke out the jacks and climbed under the car to force the wheels back onto the steel. The official announcement to all was that we were going to experience another "short delay."
Jack, who had been silent throughout the trip was pressed into service to chat with us while the car was meandering its way back onto the iron. He assured us that this doesn't happen often and we had received a special treat from the gods of iron horses. It was clear he was very uncomfortable taking on a talking role, but it sure beat the hell out of being under a derailed car on a trestle lifting it up from underneath.
Once the coach had been righted, we were now REALLY late. However, once we started moving downward again, we lurched to a sudden stop again as the brakes went into emergency a second time. In the excitement of the derailment someone forgot to reassemble the switch we had just derailed on previously and the guys had to go back to do so.
It was now clear that the crew all knew they were in serious trouble with management for slowing down the railroad and they were visibly rattled. In railroading, the clock is the imperial leadership that no mere mortal shall dare mess with, especially on a single track line. In railroad jargon, "je n'est ce pas souviens" (you ain't getting any souvenirs for this, chuckles).
We descended at a continual 4 to 6 MPH and the braking still seemed to elude Joe and Jack at times as we continued to bump the locomotive again and again. The earth below seemed to be coming up at us more noticeably than before, but after the derailment nobody seemed to care anymore as to whether or not we were all gonna die. We blew by the halfway house, bumping and hissing our way down the mountainside.
The locomotive was wheezing and hissing louder than at any point in the trip upward as it was clearly working hard to keep the coach under control at the higher than normal descent speed. The amount of soot and steam invading the coach was also more abundant as the train worked its way down.
Finally, we arrived at the 1/3 height switchback and water tower where the locomotive had to stop and refill with water. By this point, Joe and Jack had the braking down to a science and the ride was pretty smooth by now, but still faster than normal trying to make up the lost time. Once again, another train was waiting for us to arrive, so onto the siding we had to go again, complete with the manipulations to the erector set switching gear.
After the 1PM train headed up, we rolled back down to the water tower. During the refilling, Joe was discussing his resume with some potential employers who were grateful to be near the end of the trip still alive and breathing. As cops say, "First you say it, then you do it (shit)." Amazingly everyone was well-composed and realizing the fulfillment of the motto of the Mount Washington Cog Railway Company, "Take an *unforgettable* journey to the summit of 6,288 foot Mount Washington," it had become for us an actuality and not mere adver-speak.
At this point, I headed for the rear of the car where I lit up a cigarette knowing I had several minutes before we pressed downward. Little did I realize that they shaved some more precious time by only putting enough water in the engine tender to just make it to the bottom, so I was surprised by the train suddenly lurching forward before I had finished my cigarette and had returned to my seat. Since the floor of the coach was on a 30 degree downward angle and it was moving, I decided that I had better remain standing on the rear platform lest I try to walk down to my seat and end up being propelled forward through the front window and onto the locomotive boiler.
From this vantage point, I was watching the rails leaving behind my view and observed how the trestles, sleepers and rails and cog racks were built. This is a view no ordinary geese really get to see at all. I looked back down into the coach at Nancy and she was concerned that I wasn't safely seated, clinging tenaciously to the wooden roof and door frame and hanging on tight.
Joe noticed me back there and simply nodded acknowledgement that I was back where I was and obviously had enough sense not to do something stupid like trying to return to my seat. He smiled when I gave him the "high sign" of "don't worry, I won't be stupid." I enjoyed the hell out of the unique view I was presented with, especially in the knowledge that I was looking UP the mountain instead of down at the ground way below.
About ten minutes later, the grade dropped to about 5 percent and I saw an opportunity to negotiate my way down to my seat where I rejoined Nancy who was non-plussed by my precarious perch on the top of the railcar. She simply said, "I knew you were OK up there and better there than on the locomotive."
Less than five minutes later, we had arrived *ALIVE* back at the train station at the base of Mount Washington. The great trainwreck ride to the sky was over. As we departed the coach, I told Joe and Jack how much I enjoyed the thrills of a trainwreck. Joe and Jack were amused.
Once the geese had departed, the train was about to move to its layup track to be readied for a later run. Joe and Jack and Nancy and I gathered around the tired locomotive and talked with the engine crew, where I thanked them profusely for a very special ride. Jeff, the motorman quipped, "We damned near all got killed up there and this crazy son of a bitch *LIKED* it!"
So thank you, Mount Washington Cog Railway Company for the most fabulous experience of my life! What happened to us has reportedly never happened to any trainload before and isn't likely to ever happen again. If you have ever had any reservations about taking the Cog Railway to the top of Mount Washington, I can personally assure you that this ride "took a licking and kept on ticking" - SAFELY!
Even under the most severe of human error and bad luck, nobody is gonna die up there. As guests of the railway, we looked over the equipment and the original 1868 locomotives, watched the refueling, and got a complete tour of the underside of the equipment and a hell of a story to tell. We took great pleasure in telling people waiting to board the next train that we derailed and nothing bad happened - enjoy your boring trip!
We only spent four hours on the trainride, but the experience was so thrilling we spent the rest of the first full day reliving it again and again. I suffered sensory overload from the ride as well as examining and analyzing the railroad's equipment, exhibits and functions - a quiet dinner at the hotel, a dunk in the pool for Nancy, and some serious drinking topped off the evening. What a ride!
Just heard on the news that people in the Queensbridge projects and vicinity are opposing a new power plant being built by the 59th st bridge in L.I.C.
Yet aren't most people in the projects minorities?? Didn't see one minority at the protest they showed on TV. Just a bunch of white NIMBY's. They want to "CHOKE" NYC's power supply.
We gotta build these plants, or someones's gonna get stuck in the 63rd street tunnel when the power goes out. I think the whole city of New York is alot more important than a few yokels that have nothing better to do than stop progress and obstruct justice.
Hmm, we could arrest them on obstruction couldn't we?
The really infuriating thing is all the plants that are under NIMBY attack are temporaries, which will only be used for the next couple of years when power usage in the city strains the grid. After that the new plants are supposed to come on line and the ones being shipped by boat from Texas will be removed.
The people protesting apparently think city officials can fold their arms and blink and the electrcity genie will magically provide power for New York, even if there's a heat wave all over the northeast and no other utilities have any power to spare. And they're also the same people who are the first ones in court suing Con Ed, the city and the NYS Power Authority for real damages and mental suffering if a blackout hits later this year.
Apparently, these NIMBY's don't learn from the trouble going on in the west coast (rolling blackouts). They don't want the plant built there........OK, where?
But if the plants weren't built and there was a power blackout during a heat wave due to high demand, they would be crying out for an investigation of ConEd.
Bill "Newkirk"
Is it true that when the R33/36WF & R36 Mainline retire on the #7 line, the R33 Mainline from the #2 & 4 lines will show up on the #7 (once all the R142 appear) line from their on they will retire on the #7 line? is it true or false.
please don't tell me that after the R33 Mainline retire, they will send over the R26/28/29 over to Flushing!
There's an old kiosk on 2nd Avenue at the Queensboro entrance that has ornate EXIT and ENTRANCE signs on it. It shows up on old pictures of the Queensboro as well. Is it, as I suspect, a trolley stop entrance?
www.forgotten-ny.com
There used to be 3 such kiosks. The other two were demolished during the latest Queensboro Bridge renovations that started in 1982. These were indeed the entrances for underground Queensboro Bridge trolley terminal. The trolley portals are still visible from the bridge.
Maybe they kept the one remaining kisok for the 2nd Ave Subway. :-)
[... in 1948 ... the cars were sold to the Queensboro Bridge line where they operated until the end (1957)]
Just a little more history for those that are interested:
Originally the Queensboro bridge was served by Manhattan & Queens Railway. They went out on Queens Blvd. In the 20s it was cut back to just the bridge & re-named Queensboro Bridge Ry. TARS (3rd Ave) from 2nd Ave also came across the bridge & hooked up with Steinway Transit.
Then it became Queens-Nassau Transit Lines. That company still serves the line as Queens Surface Corp.
Mr t__:^)
Unfortunately, it cannot be used as a portal in any way. They covered the stair openings with concrete.
What was interesting was that during the renovations they tore up the traffic island and rebuilt it. From the Roosevelt Island tram you could actually look down and see the covered-over stairways, trolley tracks, cobblestones, etc., underneath the island. In fact you should be still able to see a bit of the trolley tracks from the portals into the terminals, if you are willing to risk life and limb.
There was an article in the Times about a recently-formed group promoting water transportation. I sent in my idea to extend the Times Square shuttle to the East River, as well as the Flushing Line to the Hudson, so both Midtown and Downtown, and both the East Side and West Side, will have quick subway connections to ferries on the waterfront.
Sometime in the afternoon an R train goes BIE at Whitehall. Several Rs are rerouted over the bridge and up 6th ave. What's so special about this case? Well, this time they couldn't go through 53rd since they would have to go express to Roosevelt. So they had to go through 63rd, despite the fact that 57th/6th is closed this weekend except nights.
I got one of these at 34th, and we went through 57th/6th at about 35 MPH and didn't even honk. Yes, the lights are kept on in closed stations.
My questions:
Did any of the crews screw up and stop there?
Are the 'Slow to 15 and honk' rules suspended when a station is fully closed (and no human being, worker or otherwise, is supposed to be there).
So in the "better late than never" dept, here's my story from riding the evening of the incident...
So I was with 3 friends heading from White Flint down to meet more friends for a late dinner (8 pm) in Dupont Circle the night this happened. When we got on the platform at White Flint at about 7:30, they were making regular announcements about the incident at Dupont Circle over the PA.
As far as trains crossing over, they were crossing over every other train at the crossing south of Van Ness, using both sides of the platform at Cleveland Park with trains dropping people off and then heading back northbound on the same track to the crossing. My guess is that they would have continued this arrangement down to Woodley Park too, except that if I remember correctly, Woodley Park would have been a much worse area to try to wrangle buses at topside.
At any rate, when we emerged from Cleveland Park station up to the street, it was absolute chaos, there were at least enough people to fill 3 or 4 buses (incl. standees) waiting to go southbound. Traffic on the street was pretty much at a standstill as well, with buses, cabs and lots of just regular traffic keeping it that way. So we popped across Conn. Ave. and grabbed a cab from folks who had been heading north, and then much to our dismay, the cabbie decided to head up Conn. to Porter (once through the standstill between Ordway and Porter), and then looped around through the gas station and BACK DOWN Conn. Ave. (twice through the mess!) We were a bit taken aback by this, since, without a meter, DC cabbies usually try to take the quickest route given the current situation, even if the distance is a bit further, as the quicker they get one fare outta their cab, the quicker they can get another one.
On the way back, at about 9:40 or so, we got onto a shuttle bus at the south side of Dupont Circle on Conn. Ave. The DC Coroner's van pulled out from its parking spot near the Dupont Circle station escalators (was the elevator out at Q St?) as we were loading the last few people on the bus (pretty much all seats filled, but only a few standing). By the time we got to Cleveland Park and down to the platform, it seems through service had just been restored, as the train we boarded came out of the tunnel from the south.
The only upside was that the faregates at Cleveland Park were just opened up (i.e. not collecting fares) during this whole mess, so we rode from White Flint to Cleveland Park and back for only $1.10. If we hadn't decided to take the cab down to Dupont, it would have been a cheap trip. :-)
(And as a further grumble, walking up the Q St. escalators at Dupont last night wasn't any fun.)
-k
There is a sign posted at the the "10-spot" punch box that says the Broad Street button is not active there
Clearly the solution here is to station someone down at the junction, once they see the oncoming trains route they can bend the iron with a rod, and secure the points with a bolt. Then they can raise a red ball on a rope. --G--
That's why I prefer human automation. With a TW/O and a T/O, two heads are better than one (-and at least one is probably not drunk or overtired) People screw up, computers screw up, other systems break down, but humans have a way more flexible "operating system" than software.
I'm guessing there have been way fewer misrouted trains at, say, 53rd, Bergen, or 4th ave, versus the automated plants. Does anyone know for sure? (yes- my examples are all simple layouts.)
Is this problem with the punches from Court Street an ongoing saga? Was the Broad button at the "10" disconnected as part of an attempt to isolate a problem? That's quite a run for a control line (from what I know) what voltage do they use for that stuff?
Dave
Ok, so really then, 75' MU cars can at least travel up to Essex Street.........
Any reason why the TA hasn't modified these areas to accomodate the cars, like they did in 1971 for the R44 MUs?
I just noticed these new little signals today. They do appear to stick out more than the regular signals. I just don't get it. Instead of working to try and make the Eastern Div. more compatible with the rest of the B Div., they go and put up new barriers where there weren't any before. (causing a much bigger inconvenience for accidental reroutes like this and the passengers whose trains it gets in the way of. Also reduces options for reroutes and special services). They must want the Eastern Div. to be as isolated as can be.
The WD's have been there for about a year. And they've been out of service for about two months.
You mean that the R142s are not actually all in the shop?
This is the sign I'm talking about
If you can't see it, go to my Transit Pictures 18 page.
Click here > EXPRESS > Court St Shuttle > Transit Pictures > 18
Wouldn't that accent mark be an apostrophe?
It's a little thinner than an apostrophe. It's the kind of mark that one would find in a dictionary. In some fonts, it would kinda look like an apostrophe. But I just used the apostrophe as a replacement for the accent mark.
And, if they really had no other way to do it and really, really wanted to (I have no idea why) I believe that there is a connecting track frm the Montauk Branch to the main line near LIC/Hunterspoint that would turn a westbound train back to the east. (Of course they would have to use a diesel to drag the electric equipment down the Montauk Branch.) Seems like an awful lot of bother. Why is it important?
Not sure if you were asking if that "Montauk Cutoff" track was important, or back to the original question about turning the equipment around.....
But....turning the equipment around is done usually to equalize wheel and truck wear.
Even the Disneyland Railroad out in California (where trains operate clockwise only around the park) have their trucks removed and turned around under the cars periodically.
I never knew that railroads had to "rotate the tires."
I too believe strongly in more electrification on the LIRR. Certainly the entire Port Jeff branch, Oyster Bay branch, and the Montauk branch as far as Speonk. The branch between Hicksville and Babylon should be electrified as well.
From my understanding the electric trains can run faster schedules than diesels. A diesel is limited by the amount of power the engine can generate. The electrics are only limited by the power available at the third rail.
There is in my opinion a greater ease of maintenance of electric equipment as opposed to diesel. In general I find electric equipment such as stoves furnaces to be easier to take care of than those using combustion. By going electric we can cut back the amount of oil consumed as well ,and reduce pollution and noise.
Rgds, A K Howard, Memphis TN.
Yes, yes, YES!
In addition, they should also electrify the entire OB branch, and eventually all the way to Greenport and Montauk.
Is it worthwhile to extend the Greenport branch to the Orient Point ferry terminal, or is that fairly useless?
That's not a bad idea!
Good plan. They could use shorter trains for the extended areas to Montauk and Greenport on weekdays.
"As for Acceleration and deceleration I have never noticed any problems. I also think that loco hauled trains have a higher top speed than MU's."
MU's have inherently better and smoother acceleration than pulled trains. Also, MU's have in the past been capable of top speeds of 110 mph (the Metroliner was originally a Budd MU consist operated by the Penn Central, then repainted in Amtrak livery). On a commuter road, this means that pulled trains do not have any speed or acceleration advantages over pulled trains - just the opposite in fact.
Your arguments regarding pulled trains' maintenance advantages are a different story. I think it's a trade-off. A railroad just introducing MU's to a previously all-pulled fleet would have trouble just because of unfamiliarity and inexperience in the maintenance shops.
The MU is good enough (and LIRR has enough experience with it) that if the LIRR were to have a hypothetical choice between a) 85-90% MU, or b) a 50-50 split electric pulled vs. diesel pulled, choice a (the MU's) would be the clear victor. (Of course, a 100% electric-pulled fleet would have advantages, as I mentioned in a previous post). Anytime you can isolate maintenance to one type of equipment, you win.
"pulled trains do not have any speed or acceleration advantages over pulled trains - just the opposite in fact"
Sorry - typo- I meant to say pulled trains have no accel. or speed advantage over MUs.
All those motors you speak of were built 70-80 years ago - they are irrelevant today. A new one would have to be invented.
Dual-mode locos do not perform well off 3rd rail and only get off diesel when they have to.
If you haven't noticed any problems with accel/decel, then you haven't experienced NJT, especially on the M&E, nor have you noticed the tons in fat they have placed in the NEC schedules over the years.
Arrows can arrive Trenton and NYP 10 minutes early, ALP trains do not, are generally late, and cannot pull over 9 cars.
Higher top speed is irrelevant if you go and stop ever 2 miles, and means nothing on the NEC for commuter trains.
Electric MUs have far superior acceleration compared to electric locomotives hauling coaches. As for speed, within the usual commuter train top-speed range (70-90 mph), there's no difference between the two. And, in fact, for high speed trains, EMUs work quite nicely (I think the Japanese bullet train and the third generation of the German ICE are MUs).
It will be sad to see the end of the NJT Arrows. Go to Newark Penn. Station one day at rush hour--it's breathtaking to see how quickly and effortlessly a *twelve* car set of Arrows can zoom out of the station while an ALP hauling a *nine* car Comet consist gingerly departs. Or take a trip on the Morris & Essex line and see how annoying it is to be in a Comet consist that jerks to a start and jerks to a stop at the closely spaced stations, while a consist of Arrows smoothly accelerates and decelerates on the same run.
All the same, I understand why NJT has moved away from the Arrows and toward loco-hauled coaches. Aside from maintenance costs, under current FRA regulations, each powered MU pair is considered a separate locomotive, subject to a raft of inspections, etc. I wish NJT had lobbied the FRA to loosen its overregulation of MUs, rather than dump the baby with the bath water.
There is also no such thing as a third-rail only engine, so electrifying and cutting back on MU's is a contradiction in terms
I'm confused. Isn't the DE30AC a "third-rail only engine"?
I'm confused. Isn't the DE30AC a "third-rail only engine"?
It's a diesel-only engine.
Thanks. I don't know what I was thinking of.
If LIRR ever gets its act together, there will be a lot of unemployed bus drivers in Suffolk County.
If LIRR ever gets its act together, there will be a lot of unemployed bus drivers in Suffolk County.
I don't see why. Few if any of Suffolk County Bus's routes "compete" with LIRR routes. Most of them run in a general north-south direction, which of course the LIRR does not, while others serve destinations not served by the LIRR (malls, hospitals, industrial parks, etc.)
But the morons at the LIRR can't even maintain reliable service ("bus service will be substituted tonight") on the few trains it does run east of Ronkonkoma.
If LIRR ever gets its act together, there will be a lot of unemployed bus drivers in Suffolk County.
I don't see why. Few if any of Suffolk County Bus's routes "compete" with LIRR routes. Most of them run in a general north-south direction, which of course the LIRR does not, while others serve destinations not served by the LIRR (malls, hospitals, industrial parks, etc.)
Because the bus companies wouldn't have to supply buses every time "bus service will be substituted tonight." (Just a small joke. OK, a very small joke.)
I really don't understand. If DM is the designation for dual mode and their is no catenary on the LIRR, how is the DE loco powered?
I really don't understand. If DM is the designation for dual mode and their is no catenary on the LIRR, how is the DE loco powered?
Diesel.
Of course. (Thanks, again. I shouldn't have gone on line before I was really awake yesterday. I even used "their" for "there." Shame on me.
A: 207 Street Manhattan To Mott Avenue Far Rockaway
: 207 Street Manhattan To Beach 116 Street Rockaway Park
C: 145 Street Manhattan To Lefferts Blvd Ozone Park
: Bainbridge Avenue/205 Street Bedford Park To World Trade Center
H: Euclid Avenue Brooklyn To Beach 116 Street Rockaway Park
S: Rockaway Round Robin Shuttle
Beach 116 Street Rockaway Park To Mott Avenue Far Rockaway
A: 207 Street Manhattan To Mott Avenue Far Rockaway
A: RH 207 Street Manhattan To Beach 116 Street Rockaway Park
C: 145 Street Manhattan To Lefferts Blvd Ozone Park
C: RH Bainbridge Avenue/205 Street Bedford Park To World Trade Center
H: Euclid Avenue Brooklyn To Beach 116 Street Rockaway Park
S: Rockaway Round Robin Shuttle
Beach 116 Street Rockaway Park To Mott Avenue Far Rockaway
RH = Rush Hour
> Go POP, like the Newark Subway and Hudson-Bergen Light Rail.
What's "POP"?
Proof
Of
Payment
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
> eliminating conductors and clerks.
What do you have against conductors and clerks? Who else is going to check tickets, announce stations, open and close doors, sell tickets, and help us get on the right train? Do you want the motorman to do all this instead of driving the train safely?
- Lyle Goldman
What do you have against conductors and clerks?
Do you know how many stations you can rebuild, cars you can buy, tracks you can electrify with the salary of all of those workers with 19th Century occupations?
Who else is going to check tickets
Random inspections by uniformed police who can also do patrolling.
announce stations
Automated announcements. They don't have to be computerized, just a tape loop.
open and close doors
The operator can do that, it only takes a trained monkey to press those buttons.
sell tickets
Never heard of vending machines?
and help us get on the right train?
Learn to read English and look at the maps and schedules.
Do you want the motorman to do all this instead of driving the train safely?
Only one thing. And opening and closing the doors is NEVER done in motion.
Do you know how many stations you can rebuild, cars you can buy, tracks you can electrify with the salary of all of those workers with 19th Century occupations?
A Federally Required 19th Century position. You need to remember that the LIRR isn't some toy train set like the subway or light rail. These big powerful locomotives and they need two crewpeople to handle them. Conductors also handle and copy train orders, align hand operated switches, fix minor train problems on the road, open and close cars, fix HEP and AC, talk with the dispatcher about customer service issues, ensure train safety, etc ,etc.
Learn to read English and look at the maps and schedules.
Transit maps are obtuse and difficult to figure out. Thy are beyond many people's mental ability. Dumb or not everybody need to get to work so that the ecomony can keep rolling along.
"Transit maps are obtuse and difficult to figure out. Thy are beyond many people's mental ability. Dumb or not everybody need to get to work so that the ecomony can keep rolling along."
Individual people will have varying abilities to read transit maps. NYC's transit maps are, I think, handsome and well-designed, overall, considering the amount of detailed info they present. NYC's transit system is far more complex than any other in the country and arguably among the top four (top 2 or 3 really) in the world.
"The Map" isn't perfect (I myself have written to MTA to request errata and addenda to be added) but it's pretty good.
A Federally Required 19th Century position. You need to remember that the LIRR isn't some toy train set like the subway or light rail. These big powerful locomotives and they need two crewpeople to handle them. Conductors also handle and copy train orders, align hand operated switches, fix minor train problems on the road, open and close cars, fix HEP and AC, talk with the dispatcher about customer service issues, ensure train safety, etc ,etc.
A prime symbol of bureaucracy run amok. The conductor is useless in a train like the LIRR which is similar to the subway only slightly longer and with grade crossings. Besides, where are the big, powerful locomotives on the MUs, and what about all those money wasters who do nothing more than collect tickets? Train orders do not need to be copied, there are screens and Xerox machines. Hand operated switches are another 19th Century technology that needs to go. Repairs are the job of the technician who does repairs. Having a jack-of-all-trades is never good for anything, unless one is in the wilderness (so only long cross-country freights need two or three crew members).
With the exception of opening and closing cars, the conductor is superfluous. And closing cars is only needed because somebody needs to escort people out of the train. Cars can be opened automatically from the cab.
Actually, unless all subway cars are equipped with doors which open automatically if there is an unexpected obstruction, the conductor is vital to passenger safety. On the LIRR, I notice conductors collecting tickets and operating the doors.
One subway conductor sticks in my mind. An older black gentleman, wearing a cap, made all the announcements on an L train. He assisted an elderly woman who had trouble negotiating the exit, kindly and courteously holding her hand and helping her on and off the train. He helped someone else with a heavy bag and found seats for passengers looking for them. The train was not delayed by these extra measures; he sped up service, actually. I managed to get his cap number and wrote the MTA a letter of commendation on his behalf (customer service responded to my letter). A real gentleman, that guy. I wish all conductors could be like him.
In order to have the engineer operate the doors, the LIRR would need to add some kind of mechanism which allows individual cars to be cut out from the engineers position. The Port Washington, West Hempstead and Long Beach lines have stations with short platforms at which frequently only the "first 4 / last 4 / first 8 / last 6" cars open.
Not impossible, but not a technology they currently have.
CG
It's not a difficult technology to implement at all.
Transit maps are obtuse and difficult to figure out. Thy are beyond many people's mental ability. Dumb or not everybody need to get to work so that the ecomony can keep rolling along.
Then make them simpler. If they are beyond some peoples mental abilities, then maybe these people need to go around with somebody smarter in order to help them out, like a helper monkey.
Main reason you didn't was because with friction bearing journals there were few places where the air had to be held on while at a station stop.The cars didn't roll easily. You'd have heard the tch-ssss just before the stop. That's the sound I meant by brake release.With one of the old type trains on a grade air might be held until ready to move, then you'd hear the brakes release.
With roller journals especially when new it is imperative to have some brake on while loading and unloading. So it is rare you won't hear a SMEE or later car release air just before they move.
Thanks for the reminder on that Ed ... I remember when I finished school car and got turned loose (there was an actual "car" back then) how I could count on dropping air (I swear I did that so I wouldn't power up with the brakes locked and pop a breaker) and you could count on the R1/9's to just SIT there until you applied power with zero air. Aside from 161st of course southbound and a few other select spots.
One of the areas where I would tend to blow it was to look at the handle position and then just wrap it with the screeching there to remind me of "whoops" ... damned if the brakes were meaningless if you had motors.
As an aside, does the TA still authorize the "standing brake test" at a terminal where you pop the controller a notch and then release to make sure the car doesn't take off? That was another thing I would tend to forget in my early zeal ... the buffs always liked the lights dimming and the loud bang when you dropped the controller back. I'd do it a few times when I could if anyone noticed. :)
Have no idea what there present rules or SOP's are. Our standing brake test was with R1-9 to make a 20 lb. pneumatic set and listen to the exhaust at the brake valve. If it didn't stop it meant you had a brake valve in release somewhere in the train (no brake valve cutouts) If it was too short an exhaust for the length of the train it meant you had an angle cock closed. On the SMEE it was release in a few graduations..if immediate exhaust and brief meant you had electric brake; if it kept blowing you didn't.
We'd held air and applied power to flash motors and see if a car was alive but this as usually walking thru in the yard.
Yep ... that's all as I remember ... good thing the memory is the FIRST thing to go and not a vital organ ... heh. At 205th, it was routine to do the flash when standing after the relay to the southbound. I remember that they insisted on you doing that when you stepped on a train before it left 205th (we was thin on working motors at the time) as a "last chance" to abandon it and lay it up before you had to do it at Brighton Beach.
But yeah, now that you mention it, I remember the rest of the drill. I'll say one thing about the railroad at the time, things were so bad as far as the equipment was concerned, we'd all be warning each other of exactly what we were stepping into and we all watched each other's backs.
I didn't realize things had gotten so bad by even 1970 or thereabouts. To this day, I've never been on a train which had to be discharged and taken OOS. IIRC they were still doing overhauls until 1974 or 1975, after which time things REALLY went downhill.
As for that brake routine, I remember it being done on the R-7/9s on the LL when leaving 8th Ave. The train would jerk, coast, then jerk again. I don't remember that being done on the BMT standards.
Heh. Well, back then it wasn't so much a question of WHEN you'd get to the other end, it was a question of IF you would get to the other end. They were so short of cars at the time that if it moved out of layup at all, it was going to run. It was policy also to have a LOT of RCI's out there, usually at least one at every major express stop. And they'd try their damnedest to fix it up on the line if they could. You'd end up dumping geese at 59th for example, roll down and see it go back into service at 34th as an example. Most of the problems were sticky door valves, bad switches that although the doors were closed and locked, the front end wouldn't get their light bulb so you'd ABD it, an RCI would rock the doors a few times, indication would occur, it'd be put BACK in service only to lay down again four more stops down the road.
It was an adventurous time. Of course now we have Looto, so no more need to play subway roulette. :)
If you've ever read the original edition of Under the Sidewalks of NY, Brian Cudahy gives an account of a ride on Fred's Sea Beach while in the motorman's cab of a train of R-32s. When they got to 57th St., the motorman gave out three short blasts, indicating he needed an RCI. When the RCI arrived, the motorman said he didn't get indication at Union Square. Not initially anyway. The conductor open and closed up several times and the problem went away. Basically, it was a matter of CYA for the motorman; if the train were to go down at Canal St. or DeKalb and tie up the bridge, he'd have some 'splainin' to do. The RCI did his thing, and the train, operated by another crew, performed without a hitch on the return trip.
How about my favorite R32 story. Leave Bedford Park on a D train, flickering indication all the way, no RCI all the way past West 4th. So run on the bypass. Smack in the middle of the Manhattan Bridge the indication goes out, needless to say I had to stop. Try to call the conductor on the PA, it didn't work. He could have verified he had [door] indication and I could have proceeded. Train packed so I go to the roadbed and nervous as hell walk the catwalk, looking thru the bridgework...a long way to the water...I am afraid of height under those circumstances.
Reach the conductor, he says indication OK, back to the head end. By the time I get there M/M/I and RCI show up [how in rush hour traffic in a cab?]Even on the bypass the GD train won't take power. So lucky help showed up [lucky also a supervisor could VERIFY my story to people at Jay St.]So we run 3rd motor, into Dekalb, M/M/I passing signals to me, forgot which method. Dump the load, run light via Sea Beach to Coney Island Yard//// at Pacific the indication comes back, train takes power from the head end everything normal the rest of the way.
Car inspectors at Coney Island shop could find nothing wrong with the train. @#$%^&*". Was I ever thankful that a M/M/I could save my butt by seeing for a fact that this happened.
Now THERE'S the D train experience *I* remember ... never laid down on the bridge but I did manage to have one bust a pipe IN DeKalb, PM rush hour southbound ... we had to cut the train and wait for a diesel to come get the rear two cars out - locked solid and had to have the brakes cranked out before they could move it.
You mention that they didn't make a rolling test on the BMT standards. Could be the rule had not been implemented then. I think it was 1970 or 71 that it was and the Ab were gone by then. Or was it the "running test" that was added...testing brakes after you got the train moving.
Things were indeed bad, and the A division was the worst for B/O equipment on the road. Mind you with all relateively recent cars. Not as many drop-outs as onthe R1-9 as they weren't as prone to steel dust fires, no hot boxes, and problems with sticking doors; but I had more slow trains and low air trouble on the A division and many other things that just didn't work.
It would have been 1969-70 that the rolling test started being done on the Canarsie. By then, I was riding in the first car on Brooklyn-bound trains and noticed the jerk-coast-jerk sequence as a train of R-7/9s would start up.
It just goes to show that even new equipment will have problems if it's not properly looked after.
One of the things with R1/9's was the braking could be ... erratic at times. You WANTED to make sure they were there before you rolled down a hill. I bumped a consist in Coney (lead to my demise as I was a probie) once where she was slowing down real nice and then suddenly, the brakes went away. I hit the train ahead of me at under 3 MPH and bent some metal. So much for the career ... damaging equipment even when it's broken is not something they appreciated at Stillwell. :)
There were so many instances though of the brakes failing on you with those trains that everyone on the railroad made SURE they were working before rolling tho'. Not that they couldn't fade on you somewhere down the line of course.
Kind of makes you wonder if they ever considered disabling the final field shunt step back then, if the brakes were so problematic.
The dynamic part of it worked just fine - what happened to me was a yard move at 5MPH ... worn shoes and probably some grease on them at that. Just at the point when they should have snatched up, they slid. I'm sure some of the other folks here who have run them could tell you similar stories at platforms. As far as operating went, you'd give yourself some extra room to stop just in case. Didn't happen often but when it did, you'd move another ten feet or so before the brakes dug in sometimes.
I can't help but think of that southbound sprint from 59th to 42nd on the A. That would be the easiest platform to overshoot with a prewar A train if the brakes didn't cooperate. 14th St. southbound ranks up there, too. The R-10s always stopped on a dime. OK, they were SMEE.
If you rode enough R1/9's back in that era, you may have noticed how motormen would almost seem to UNDERshoot platforms deliberately, bearing down and slowing down plenty and then crawling up to the 10 car marker ... that was the reason why. :)
You could also tell by the repeated venting of air as the puppies came to a final stop. At least that's the way I operated. I was warned by many of my brothers that one had best do it that way, especially on a downgrade.
You mean the "tch-ssss" magnet valve sound? On the average, I'd hear it three, maybe four times before the train would come to a full stop.
I remember the first time I heard that sound at Shoreline. They were moving 1689 on its siding when it gave off that trademark "tch-sss". It was music to my ears.
Ayup ... as they were getting long in the tooth and were out way past their bedtime, you'd feather them to make sure they stopped where you needed them to. :)
I always.like the way the R-10's handled back then. I would come into a station with the controller wrapped (if not on a downgrade). Upon entering the station, controller off, full brake application, then slowly ease off the handle bit by bit until I had just a minimum brake application. I could ease the train right to the stop marker smooth as silk. Upon leaving the station, I could then flick the brake handle with my thumb while my hand was on the controller. I really enjoyed rockin' and rollin' on those babies!
Marc
Didn't the R-10s convey a feeling of invincibility as they thundered up CPW? When they'd hit 81st St. with a full head of steam, you thought nothing could stop them. At least I felt that way.
Then there's Sutphin Blvd. on the Queens line. I'll bet those folks on the platforms got an earful when an F train of those speedsters rocketed past. That stretch was known as one the fastest express in the entire system. Rumor has it that "What was that?" was a common expression when the R-10s ran on the F.
It was also fun out on the (at the time) CC line, that stretch out in the Rockaways was great. A few times, while running light along Cross Bay Blvd. during the summer, we opened the side doors. It was like a wind tunnel! Saved the car cleaners some work...
You're right about feeling invincible--the IND has never been the same after the R1-9, 10's have been gone--Talk about your "Golden Age." I'm glad to have good memories, and some folks on this board to share them with.
Marc
I've noticed when a train is held by dispatch, that slight release of brake, a signal from the T/O to close up.
avid
Why are colors so problematic.
Some people identify their trains based on the way the car looks (D/Q for example), if you switched around cars so that those two lines used the same equipment, people would use something else to identify the cars.
Colors are unimportant. There is no need to spend a lot of money to create multicolor displays (which have lower resolution BTW).
I agree - displays on trains should be created to be simple, using high contrast (easily discernible from a distance or by someone with poor eyesight).
It would seem pretty inefficient to run 10 car Q-trains throughout the day when only for that small amount of time during the rush where there is really high demand for it.
It would be a lot of bother and labor to cut them down by 2 cars for just 2 round trips. And the TA would have to install new conductor boards to be pointed at! Some motormen may stop at the wrong car marker at some point during the day! Extra motormen would have to be hired just to handle the cuts & adds. Much more additional paper work would be needed by the dispatcher & his assistant. You would be moving 2 cars. The last thing you want to happen is a 2 car peice stalling outside a yard in the case of gapping the third rail or a weak or dead air compressor. And labor is expensive. It is cheaper just to run them 10 cars all day.
Any terminal can turn a train around quickly if you have a motorman waiting. During rush hours, I don't think you need to clean a train at the terminal unless there's really something digusting on it. In the old days, you didn't even have to charge the brakes up. The D-Types can change end IMMEDIATLY.
The Bette Midler show ... if there is a second season.
Let's hope not.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you ever happen to visit Williamsburg, Virginia, watch Williamsburg: The Story of a Patriot, starring a very young Jack Lord. In the background of one of the scenes of the Capitol building is a late '50s GM bus.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"4000 Nostrand Avenue is between Voorhies Avenue and Shore Parkway"
I haven't seen the episode since the early 70's. Maybe it was 4500 Nostrand or so, but it was in the 4000's.
Welcome back to SubTalk from brief disappearance.
Bill "Newkirk"
"There used to OUTDOOR palm trees every summer next to Kenny Rogers' Roasters at Nostrand Avenue and Emmons Avenue, near 4000 Nostrand Avenue! :"
Hmmmm!!....were those palm trees around in 1973 or so ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Hmmm, sounds like fun. Can I join the organizers for breakfast?
This may sound like a heresy, but I will be driving to either the diner or Coney Island to meet everybody. What is the parking situation around the diner? Is there free on-street parking nearby?
I specifically posted the diner info so that others could meet us there and then head off to Jay Street. Wouldn't mind having the company.
Seaview Diner has more than enough parking. It is actually right next to the Belt Parkway.
I can't speak for Coney Island, but do know that if you have a nice late model car, I suggest you meet us at the diner...;-)
BMTman
Here are G.O.s that will effect elevated lines:
7- express from 61 to Main (10am-3pm)
2- ends at Gun Hill. Bus to 241 till 5am Tues.
N/R- Uptowwn runs express- Canal to 42.
Reminder: All Queens Bound E,F,R run via 63rd St.E via 6av from W4 to 47-50th.
I regret I can not make it since I do have to work. The closest I;ll get is 370 Jay to Penn Sta.
Yeah I wish I could go too, but 9am is a bit early, I'd have to wake up before sunrise to get there.
Well at least I got a chance to do some railfanning on the E today.
I'd have to wake up before sunrise to get there.
Like people with jobs?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, in Alaska that's quite common. My wife lived there for three years (Anchorage and Fairbanks), several years before we were married, and we have a good friend who has lived there for the past twenty years now. Learning to ride a snowmobile - even for "city" kids - is a skill acquired at about the same time kids down here learn to ride a bike. And there are "junior-size" snowmobiles with narrower seats and closer-reach pedals (but the standard-size track) designed especially for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It was most likely your lack of punctuation that confused him. The "7th Ave" is supposed to go with "BROKEN RAIL" but he read it to go with "Trains." In other words, you meant "BROKEN RAIL, 7th Ave: Trains Diverted AM Rush" and not "BROKEN RAIL: 7th Ave Trains Diverted AM Rush."
- Lyle Goldman
>>punctuation
Damm, I think they covered that in school. Must have missed that day.
I wasn't trying to criticize your grammar. I was just pointing out what caused the confusion.
- Lyle Goldman
I think it's ridiculous that they "modified" the picture for the newspaper.
My thoughts exactly. But, Pigs, if you wanna see lotsa nekkid chicks (for free!) check out this site.
Ummm. I guess I should say thank you.
Unfortunately, all people who pay taxes that support the City - which means all of us in the US - are forced to patronize the "artist".
My tax dollars should be paying for the "artist's" stay in a mental institution, not for the display of this garbage.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is a link to the picture at the end of the story.
Hmmmm ... looks like they censored the picture. We won't get to see everything Renee Cox has got!
I agree now.
I'm sure that there are Brighton riders who want to go downtown, and now they have to transfer, why should they?
Then the Sea Beach can be brought over the bridge, and everybody is happy.
Well all right Pork. You have had an epiphony and I am happy to see it. This way all West End, Brighton Beach and Sea Beach fans can be happy. Now if we can only convince those yo yo people in the TA to fall in line and bring this about we can all celebrate fairness in alloting trains over the scenic Manhattan Bridge. BTW I always was excited to cross the Manny B as a kid. It meant I was heading into Brooklyn to either watch the Dodgers, go to both grandparents, or on to Coney Island. It always made be smile to do those things.
Another good thing I have been told is when both sides of the bridge are in operation, having races between the D and the Q over the bridge was common, and the Q always ended up getting stuck, because if the race happened to be in the direction of Brooklyn, since the D and Q have to merge to run down Brighton, the Q would get held up. I would love to have races like that, it is like 4-5 minutes of excitement for a railfan.
Now that would be a dream come true with one change. Put a Brighton on the South side (the Confederate side), and a Sea Beach on the Northern side (the Union side), put Brighton Beach Bob on his train, and me in mine, and let's us have at it. Let's see what would happen, but I could tell you if you want to know. I'd clean his clock and he would never call my train the Slow Beach anymore. His Brighton would be called the Dullton.
Them's fightin' words, Fred... we ain't lost the war yet!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Fightin' words yes, but friendly fightin' words. Remember my main man GWB swept the South. Without your folks we would have Gore in there now, and wouldn't that be a kick in the teeth.
Right, especially with out GW s baby brother and stopping Afro Americans at the Polls, is the only way Georgie W got in.
Without your folks we would have Gore in there now, and wouldn't that be a kick in the teeth.
No, it wouldn't.
I hope they put the "N" train over the Manhattan bridge so that it will no longer be the "Slow Beach" line train. The "N" train has been treated badly for a long time and it deserves better treatment than it has been getting. Make the "N" train express in Manhattan and Brooklyn so that it can be restored to its former glory as the "N" Sea Beach express or if they use numbers it would be called the #4 Sea Beach express.
BMTJeff
IM STILL A DAMN YANKEE, and you live further south then I do
While we're at it, let's put each of you in a Triplex and may the best man win. Nothing like a good old-fashioned demolition derby.:-)
Great idea but we need one addition to this demolition derby of yours. We have to put Bill and Hillary Clinton between the two Triplexes for added suspense and pleasure. Then watch me go at it.
Hey No Politics, this is a clash between the Brighton Exp and the Sea Beach Local. Notice how anti labor George W is, about Union and Non Union Workers.
Admittedly that does bother me a lot. You may not believe this but I am very pro labor. In fact, I refuse to join our teacher's organization because it is affiliated with NEA, which is an association. I belong to AFT because I want to be in a real union. You know Abe Lincoln thought unions could be a good thing for American worker and Teddy Roosevelt defended unions in coal and steel strikes. I do not believe that Republicans and Unions are oximorons, but many do. No, I think if Bush is going to go for permission slips for union members dues, he should shitcan all this free enterprise welfare benefits for big business as well. A fair playing field. Too bad for you. You now cannot find anything from this to pan me about, can you? Too bad, I got you there.
NO, SubTalk is NOT for "all railroads".
Look at the SubTalk title header next time you visit....up where the subway car graphic is.
I'll save you some trouble......here it is.
Welcome to the SubTalk bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only. Off-topic and harassing posts will be removed at the discretion of the management. Please note! This site is not run by MTA New York City Transit
Notice it says....."discussion of rail transit systems wordlwide".....please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only"
That does NOT mean it's open to "all railroad" discussion. Rapid transit or rail transit......notice that word TRANSIT??????????
David Pirmann Shoud DELETE These OFF-TOPIC-POST'S!
Actually, Dave has... sometime between 0030 and 1700 today. (Thanks, Dave.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Most rail systems ARE transit.
The entire point of this board is to discuss RR systems. You are the first person who I have ever seen to complain about ON TOPIC DISCUSSION OF RAILROADS. There are people who complain about politics and other things, but your narrow focus takes the cake for extremism in topic policing.
No, most railroads are NOT transit systems.
Most railroads are FREIGHT haulers. They want to make money. Hauling passengers and commuters does NOT make any money.
How many railroads ARE actually "transit"?
(I'll stick with just the USA for now, as I am NOT familiar with any overseas companies.)
Long Island
Metro-North
NJ Transit
Metra (Chicago)
MBTA (Boston)
SEPTA (Philadelphia)
Metrolink (Southern California)
Caltrain & ACE (San Francisco bay Area)
Sounder (Seattle)
Tri-Rail (Florida)
Trinity Rail (Dallas)
Amtrak could certainly be considered transit.
But stuff such as Conrail, Union Pacific, Burlington Northern Santa Fe, Soo Line, Chessie System, Guilford, Norfolk Southern, Providence & Worcester, CP Rail, etc. are NOT TRANSIT.
I don't feel my focus is narrow at all. If anyone is being focused narrowly, it is YOU. YOU don't want to read the header at the top of SubTalk and follow the guidelines.
Steve, if you haven't noticed, there are others who discuss things other than the often boring tranist lines. The Subtalk header says please stick to Rapid/Rail Transit issues only. Last time I checked, a box of donuts on a UP train could be considered in transit. Also, last time I checked UP trains still ran on rails making them RAIL TRANSIT, a topic that can and should be freely discussed here.
I rest my case...
Steve, with all due respect as a former NYCTA conductor and motorman. I do my best to respect the spirit of the place as do many others (including my begging for indulgence for doing a relay dump over Shrub politics in a few spots), I live upstate and have for nearly half my life now. I did my time on the TA and I live in a place where the only subway we have is the route of the pointless arrow.
Sure we all like our front window, but "transit" can also lose its shine on the mundane topics of transportation policy (which is thoroughly on topic and boring as hell) ... I enjoy VERY much when Jersey Mike posts his receipts of the High Rail articles since dinosaur traction (freight is all there is up here other than Hamtrak) and a train is a train is a train to many so long as it's going their way. Many of us outside the city have to live vicariously with the musings of HeyPaul and others here and I for one enjoy the hell out of the ride here no matter which Avenue it's redirected to as the result of a "Hot Lunch" ...
I have real work to do and real custoemrs to take care of ... but as a DIRECT result of the cameraderie here and the ability to gas off on all things as long as you don't let go of the throttle, I love this place just the way it is (even with the sidetrips and BIE's) I wouldn't screw with it.
The "board" is arranged in such a way (and folks do at least try to somewhat remain in the threads they landed in) that you can look at the titles, determine they have played out, and go onto whatever threads seem yummy ... sorta like a Times Square IRT dining experience at Nay-deeks ... (Nedick's, only trying to sound like a French restaurant) ... it all fits in one twirl or another.
But bottom line is, it IS all related to trains, even on its most extreme periphery, much like the turnaround loops at Coney. After all, politics has turned out to be the PENULTIMATE trainwreck and we're still waiting to see NTSB show for this one. :)
My opinion - as long as the subject is clearly marked, we can ignore the things we don't care about ... now push aside, sonny, you're ruingin my view. Tall guys to the back, please. Heh.
(no dissing intended here)
Amen.
Some of us deal in facts, others in Fancy, and still others extreme fantasy.
Witness the recent adventures of heypaul and the Narrow Guage Mountian Logging R.R.
Not a lot of posters commented, so I can conclude many bypassed my wandering thought line.
Its always your choice.
avid
Could we have a webmasters view of this issue?
The 'Dark City MTA' cars look like the old PATCO cars
Funny you mention that... Upon my first visit to Philadelphia last summer, I remember thinking that certain aspects of Philly reminded me a lot of the fictional city in "Dark City." I'm willing to bet one of the set designers took a lot of inspiration from Philly in designing the sets.
-- David
Chicago, IL
There were lots of incosistencies in the past. The R 1-9s had variation in the route and destination signs. It was not uncommon to see an AA or CC train where some cars were going to "Hudson Terminal" and others to "Chambers St"
-- Ed Sachs
That seems like a logical, intuitive answer. That would be analogous to having the engines on a twin turboprop aircraft rotate in opposite directions - to cancel torque.
Same thing for twin rotor choppers.
I think symmetry is the more important reason, although cross-mounting
the motors does result in canceling the moment arm through the
bolster. The old Brooklyn el cars used a suspension that was
not crossed. It was known as a Gibbs cradle and as a result there
were left-hand and right-hand motor cases.
Throwing my two cents in on number one. 86 and Lex is an upgrade station. Attempting to stop at the ten car marker with SCM equipped redbirds will have at least the rear car tugging back on the rear of the train, from the upgrage. If at anytime, this resistance from the rear car further reduces the speed slightly below 5, the lockout magnet valves that apply will attempt to flow B.C. air to the friction equipment. Not all cars apply the brake cylinders at the same time. If a particular car has had its wheels trued, the motors will be spinning faster and the other cars can apply the brakes sooner. Now you have a scenario where the train enters the downgrade with cars with a full group switch reset and others that will load up heavy on the dynamic circuit that never broke. That may be a hell of a ride to 59 Street with hot grids to boot :-)
LOL!
And to think just last eve, one of the
uppercard networks had a story on how
any ham & egger like us could purchase
a (--------) key at a hardware store
....which would bring access to PATH
trains.. and yes, Virginia.... 142's
38s have many light probles.
I'm going to respond to your thing POINT-BY-POINT, as I like to do.
Now, we know that I am an apologist for adding new technology to anything, but I also don't believe in superfluous technology, but I also don't think that's what's being done here.
So, here goes:
Here's a question nobody seems to want to ask: Do we really need more computer-controlled equipment? I'm talking about subway cars here, but the query could easily relate to any appliance. Now, I'm not knocking computers per se. I'm typing on one right now and enjoying myself quite nicely. But recent postings about rollsigns and the R-142 have led me to believe that most of the innovations in subway car technology since, well, let's stick to the cars on the road, the R-32, have been more or less unnecessary.
We don't NEED knew computer equipment, but man doesn't NEED to do anything much. Cavemen got along just fine wearing loin-cloths, bashing animals with wooden clubs, cooking things by just simply putting them over a fire, living in simple shelters and finding private little corners in the woods do their business. However the entire history of civilization has been that of man doing everything possible to get more with less work. First, man realized that by raising his own crops and animals, much less work could be done and a person could spend more time enjoying himself. Eventually somebody realized you can get a lot more done by focusing on one crop, and trading with somebody else to get another. Throughout time, man has come up with ideas, and put them into practice, all to save labor. That is the primary reason for the existence of civilization. Computer control of trains is no exception to that rule.
This question first posed itself in my brain after taking this week's tour of the Coney Island yard and shops sponsored by the Transit Museum.
To be clear, I certainly do not subscribe to the "If it's new it must be bad" theory. I was thoroughly impressed with the appearance, comfort and ride of the M-4s on the Market Street El/Subway in Philadelphia. I might even say that, taken as a whole, they are the best rapid transit cars I have had the pleasure of riding. Of course, they're brand new, and I only rode the "Almond Joys" once some years ago, so I can't really do justice to any comparison.
It occurs to me, however, given the problems with the R-142s, to ask this simple question: "If it ain't broke, why fix it?"
Over time I've come to take the proverb "Keep it Simple, Stupid" as much more useful then I originally thought, however, the "If it aint broke, don't fix it" (or derivative) is just as stupid as the day I first heard it. If everything was only fixed if it was broken, then we would still be living in caves. I subscribe to the theory, which has guided man throughout his existence: "It's always broken, always try to fix it."
You know, Thomas Edison tried a number of different materials for his light bulb filament before one finally worked. Would you have told him to give up and use an oil lamp because of all of those problems? There have been inventors who have even risked life and limb (and sometimes lost) just to try to get something to work. If they hadn't tried, would there even be an R-142 to complain about, or a subway?
I'm no engineer, but the mechanical technology of the older equipment works just fine.
It only works fine, right? Anything can work BETTER. We must not give up until everything is perfect, nothing will ever be perfect (translation: never give up improving).
When you put a computer in the middle of a man and the machine, the instincts which guide him, be he a T/O or mechanic, are rendered moot, diminishing his effectiveness.
Why? The man can still observe gauges, and do everything he's done before. Maybe the decreased labor will let him pay attention more to the various meters.
And is it really that difficult for the crew to turn the rollsigns and route designations?
Yes, it is. You have to crank it all around, and hurt your wrist, and do it twice a car. There are 12 signs to change per crew member, although it's 11 if you don't change the end signs facing the middle.
Is it really that difficult to stand in front of the mike to announce stops and service changes?
This is a CUSTOMER improvement. The announcements are a lot clearer when they come out of the mouth of a professional speaker. You can also make announcements while moving, and have a digital display show synchronized text announcements for the hearing impaired. Plus, it leaves the conductor to do more important things. It also makes the conductor more superfluous and easy to remove, which (if you read before) is a good thing.
Is it really that difficult for the T/O to look at the speedometer and run at the designated speed? (LEDs, LCDs, governors, etc.: Why!?)
Apparently yes, why was field shunting disconnected from all of the current trains. Safety is also another thing we can chalk up to technology. Are you against the technology improvements that would allow us to build thing without having anybody die?
Not really part of my argument, but what do Light Emitting Diodes and Liquid Crystal Displays have to do with speed control?
I love riding the R-32s, R-33s, & R-36s.
I like the first one. You know I don't like the Repulsive Rustbirds, especially the R-33S. Mainly, my disdain for them is a matter of appearance.
It takes men (or women) to run these trains, turn the signs, repair and maintain them. They get me to where I need to go, and I've never been on one where the lights have gone out either (except, of course, during 3rd rail gaps.)
That's the problem. The R-142 will require LESS men to repair and maintain them, and those that will be required to repair and maintain them will be required to spend less time on a particular problem. The computer can automatically pinpoint the root of a problem. Alternating Current motors lack brushes, which is a plus. The air conditioner is in one place, and can easily be removed and a new one swapped in (no need to keep a train out of service to fix the Air Conditioner). Computer equipment is solid state. More solid state equipment, less unreliable moving parts that wear and tear. The train also uses airbags instead of coils for suspension, which provide a smoother ride. The lighter mass, thanks to using computer equipment instead of bulky switches and relays and because of the greater use of plastics means the motors need less power to move the train, and the ride is smoother, quieter and less taxing on the rails and el structures.
That's because when the crew flips a switch, electricity goes to the light bulbs and they are illuminated. When the crew notches up the throttle, the train responds accordingly and we move forward.
A machine is required to do that, one consisting of a complex maze of relays, switches and levers. The computer makes it simpler.
When the air is applied, the train slows down or stops.
Again, a mechanism is needed for controlling the air flow.
These are the main functions of a rapid transit vehicle. If a computer is getting in the way, why are we (taxpayers) spending extra money for it?
Why is a computer getting in the way? In fact, the machine that operates current trains is getting in the way. Why have a controller when you can have the crew operate a series of switches that remove or apply resistance to the motors. Instead of air brakes, use manual brakes like in the old days.
The smoother ride, the light board stop-designator lights, the computer-voice announcements: these things are all really cool, but not really necessary.
Yes they are. Would you rather ride around on a steel plate, with simple benches on it, through the dark and noisy tunnel, or do you want a nice train?
All of the things on the train are there for comfort. There are chairs, an enclosure, automatic doors, windows, climate control, lights, a PA system, the list goes on and on. All of the trains going back to the R-26 have all of these features. Do you want them to be removed too? Because we really don't "need" them. Who needs lights, windows, auto-doors or air conditioning anyway?
I really don't mean to Ted Kazinsky you all here, but if these "improvements," which may be great ideas in and of themselves, interfere with the main function of a rapid transit car
Why are they interfering anyway? If anything, they are augmenting and enhancing the functions.
it's ridiculous to spend time and money on them. For example, just because we can create a car with AC traction doesn't mean we should.
That's a stupid little comment, so far you've made a lot of sense.
Just because we can have trains powered by electricity, doesn't mean we should. What's wrong with steam?
AC motors have a series of advantages, in fact, it's probably the single greatest innovation coming to NYC subway cars with the R-142.
A regular DC motor includes brushes, which have to "brush" against a commutator plate in order to reverse the flow of the electricity through the rotor windings so the motor can continue spinning. An AC motor is already fed by alternating current. Another BIG reason for the AC motors is the speed control. In a DC motor, current is cut to the motor to slow it down by using resistors. The power still goes somewhere and it's released as heat. So even if the motor is slower, the same amount of power is being drained. In an AC motor, an electronic chopper control adjusts the frequency of the current alternation in order to affect the way the current flows through the stator windings. The motor is sped up or slowed down, but a slower motor doesn't burn extra energy to heat, it's just not drawn.
Another advantage of the R-142 is regenerative braking. In a prior train, the dynamic brakes would allow the motors to be disconnected from a power source. The coasting motors would become generators, and the power would run through a set of resistors so the power would be dissipated as heat and slow down the motor. On the R-142, the power can be returned to the third rail so another train can pick it up, so less energy is wasted.
Have we become so lazy?
Apart from most of the R-142 improvements being in access for the disabled or energy efficiency, I would answer that with a resounding YES.
It is the fundamental nature of man to seek ways to reduce pain and increase pleasure. Work is pain, work must be reduced. This is what guided ALL of the inventions EVER made. Not one single thing was ever created because somebody wanted to save time and labor.
Have to agree, especially on the aspect of AC traction, having seen the difference in the diesel locomotives (the "MAC" series) ... one of the big problems with DC traction motors is brush wear,l and more important, low speed, high current (or "stall") operation down around 2-5 MPH ... if you're trying to get a consist moving or operating a high load at low speed, you're literally burning your motors owing to the high stall currents.
AC traction doesn't have this problem because of the absence of commutators and brushes. AC traction hasn't become very practical though until high current solid state electronics that can apply multiple phase and frequency power to the AC motors. But finally, the electronics to control them has become reliable and it is quite an advance. No more need to tear down the motors as often and not so much need for bags of grease-it ...
As to the computers though, they do add another thing to go wrong depending on how well they're designed/built. It IS more of a challenge for old timers to give up the "feel" in favor of a status display but then again, for people who never railroaded by the seat of their pants, I assume it will come naturally. When I joined the TA, the "new cars" were rapidly replacing the "old cars" but I was lucky enough to get assigned to the "old cars" because I expressed an extreme interest in doing so. Let's just say there was no opposition from the folks who were GRATEFUL to have door controls inside and nice T-lever motor controls as opposed to wrenches and valves.
But I'll continue to whine about how much I liked my sweeties (the R1/9's) because I ran them ... as long as the new technology doesn't cause more problems than they solve, then it's a good thing. And as long as the TRIACs don't short out on the phase and frequency controllers, then the AC motors will get along just fine. Only downside is with the DC motors, you could lash up the wires, take a chicken pole and rev up a truck in the car shop for a short joyride whereas the AC motors won't budge without their electronics. Ah well, last thing the TA needs is motorheads with chicken poles sending a truck with a beach chair on it down track 33, eh? :)
What about those AC motors they used on PRR electric locomotives before the days of phaze choppers. Why can't they use those? No buggy computers involved. How did those motors work anyway?
I would not want to go back to the technology of the Rustbirds. Compared to what is available now the Rustbirds are outdated and they are probably harder to maintain. True the R-142s are having their problems at this time but once the problems are worked out I bet you that they will be more reliable that any other subway car that has been operated in the New York City subway system. The air conditioning should work better than in the old cars and will be easier to repair since the A/C units are modular and interchangable so a malfunctioning A/C unit can be replaced with another unit quickly. The brakes will probably work better. There are no roll signs to change. The new cars will be more energy efficient thanks to regenerative braking that will send power back to the third rail when the cars come to a stop or slow down. The A/C motors will probably be better than the D/C motors in the long run. In the end the R-142 subway cars will be better than the cars that preceded them. Going back to the technology of the Rustbirds would be like giving up your modern automobile that has fuel injection, electronic ignition and uses unleaded gasoline, has disk brakes and replacing it with one that had a carburetor, points, used leaded gasoline and had four wheel drum brakes that often caused the car to pull to one side quite easily. Modern technology has made things much better and easier.
BMTJeff
And people seem to forget that a new car will go 200,000 miles if well cared for -- twice the life of an old car. However, CTA's philosophy of design conservatism (mentioned on another current thread) isn't a bad way to design rapid transit cars, either.
You've said it all for me. I learned long ago that the old can't be with us forever, as I'm a veteran railfan who watched the whole first generation pass. But KISS should rule. [keep it simple, stupid.]
You're right that the old can't be with us forever. New technology once it has been proven is often better than the technology it replaces. There are still people alive who remember when they first got a dial telephone how great it was that you didn't need to have the operator to connect you to the party whom you wished to call. Now dial telephones are regarded as antiquated. You might remember when the "Redbirds" first entered service how much better they were than the cars they had replaced at the time. Now the "Redbirds" are simply old worn out subway cars that have served well and are in need of replacement. When you think of it most of them were in service for 35 to 40 years which is a very long time. They went through the GOH program in the 1980s so that they could last another 10 to 15 years or more at the time and now they are at or near the end of their service life and need to be replaced with brand new cars. Believe it or not the new R-142 subway cars have a design life of 40 years and could perhaps last longer if they're well maintained. They will probably be more reliable than the cars that they replace once the bugs are worked out.
BMTJeff
There are still people alive who remember when they first got a dial telephone how great it was that you didn't need to have the operator to connect you to the party whom you wished to call. Now dial telephones are regarded as antiquated.
Yet even now, one still "dials" a number.
There are still people alive who remember when they first got a dial telephone how great it was that you didn't need to have the operator to connect you to the party whom you wished to call.
Nineteen years ago today we purchased our present home in North Carolina, moving from the small town of Garner to the countryside three plus miles east of the rural crossroads known as Bunn. One of the pleasant anachronisms was the local telephone system - you dialed four digits if you wanted another customer on the local exchange, or five digits for Nashville or Rocky Mount. Anything else required you to go through the operator. We had a private line, which had only been made available two months earlier, and we were the first customer to opt for touch tone service. In June of that year, the new central office switch was activated, full direct dial came to the Spring Hope exchange, and things haven't been the same since.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is true that a few areas even up into the 1980s had little or no direct dial telephone service. In Bryant Pond Maine they didn't have dial phone service until October of 1983. If I'm not mistaken most people had dial telephone service by the 1940s and 1950s.
BMTJeff
"" keep it simple stupid "" & easy to repair, simple to repair , interchangable parts simplex compatibility ( geeeez hope i spelled it right )
& to hell with the outdated computers automatic climate adjusters that are prone to fail useless " sensors " lcd readout panels !!!'
useless over high tech speed controls " cruse controls " & automated people mover acessories lcd panels subject to breakdown ...
& the rage to bed sold the endles promise of this over high tech overbudget crap ""goodies"" !!! ...
One question, do you think before you post?
Could you please retype that in English this time?
You're absolutely right that a most modern automobiles if properly maintained can be driven up to 200,000 miles or more before they have to be retired. Thirty years ago most cars could be driven only about 50,000 to 60,000 miles before major problems surfaced. It was possible to drive a car 100,000 miles in those days if you took care of it but that was about the limit at that time. I'm not against using new technology on subway cars as long as it has been thoroughly tested. Many of the new technologies that are being used in the R-142s will result in a subway car that won't only be more reliable but easier to maintain and repair. Once they have all the bugs worked out of the R-142s I wouldn't be surprised that the MDBF rates will be better than with any subway car that has been use in the past. Let's face it, new technology is often better as long as it is tested thoroughly before it is applied.
BMTJeff
Going back to the technology of the Rustbirds would be like giving up your modern automobile that has fuel injection, electronic ignition and uses unleaded gasoline, has disk brakes and replacing it with one that had a carburetor, points, used leaded gasoline and had four wheel drum brakes that often caused the car to pull to one side quite easily. Modern technology has made things much better and easier.
And that's why we should do it! All of the bad old technolgies you mentioned are simple and if something breaks you can fix it yourself. Do you know what fuel injection and electric ignition means? It means if your battery dies you're SOL. Old cars can be push started. BTW disk brakes are not a new technology. My '69 Mustang has them.
Why can't we just upgrade old technologies to a modern standard. Using new engineering and materials. Cars would be effifient, reliable and wasy to fix and maintain.
The thing is you CAN FIX MODERN TECHNOLOGY. You can only replace it. If something in my car breaks I could probably fashion a replacement part myself. Godforbid there's a plague or a war and these parts cease to be available.
One of the big problems with modern design is that engineers put too much faith in computers. Humans are smarter than computers. A human should be allowed to override any recomindation the computer makes. Also there should always be a manual override. At the flip of a switch you should be able to get manual anouncements, manual light control, manual train operation through analogue channels. Subway cars should have BOTH old and new technology for maxium felxibility and reliability.
YOU CAN'T FIX MODERN TECHNOLOGY. CAN'T. NOT CAN. SORRY.
BTW disk brakes are not a new technology. My '69 Mustang has them.
When were they added? The only '69 available with disc brakes - front wheels only - was the Mach I with the 429. They weren't even an option on your 302.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well I know my 72 had them, but I also though my 69 did too. Either way they work fine.
There are some old technologies that can be upgraded to modern standards but some technologies that cannot and must go the way of the dinosaur. True a lot of people have put their faith into computers nowadays but they're not perfect and they are constantly changing. Computers are better today than they were just a few years ago but they still have a ways to go yet. I'm not against using computers to help control certain functions on subway cars but at this time it is an excellent idea to provide a manual backup just in case the computer goes on the blink. As you said it is true that many old cars could be push started should the battery goes dead and in those days it came in handy since batteries weren't always that reliable. Today however batteries are much better and the ability to push start a car isn't as important. If one has any brains though they should simply REPLACE their battery after about four to five years even though it appears to be O.K. just to AVOID trouble. The old adage (An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure) still applies to this age of the computer.
BMTJeff
Today however batteries are much better and the ability to push start a car isn't as important.
Until you leave you lights on.
If one has any brains though they should simply REPLACE their battery after about four to five years even though it appears to be O.K. just to AVOID trouble.
You might like throwing money away. Others do not. I think all cars chould be equipped with a back up crank starter socket.
(An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure)
Prevention means having independant backup systems that will always work.
You might like throwing money away. Others do not. I think all cars chould be equipped with a back up crank starter socket.
Those worked fine when engines were low compression and low power. My wife's '63 Peugeot had one; her father was too cheap to replace the battery when it died (she was in nursing school at the time) and so she had to crank it for the last six months she owned it. (Of course, he put a new battery in when it came time to sell it because no one would buy it otherwise.) But modern cars - including even your Mustang - could not be started that way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think that most American made cars starting in the post-war 1940s were using higher compression engines and cannot be crank started. Although batteries are better than they use to be it is best to replace them after about 4 or 5 years since they tend to give out after that amount of time and replacements are not terribly expensive (about $60.00 +/-) and if you put the new battery in yourself it usually isn't very difficult to do. $60.00 isn't a lot of money to spend if you want to avoid trouble.
BMTJeff
My local garage keeps a fairly close check on mine. He figures that I should be good for at least five years and that I'll have plenty of warning before it completely quits. So far I'm still running on the original battery in the '96 Windstar; the '94 Mustang got a new one last fall, and the '93 Sable had its battery replaced in '98. The original one in the '92 T-bird had been replaced some time before we bought it in '98 with an el cheapo but even that one is still holding up.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And that's why we should do it! All of the bad old technolgies you mentioned are simple and if something breaks you can fix it yourself. Do you know what fuel injection and electric ignition means? It means if your battery dies you're SOL. Old cars can be push started. BTW disk brakes are not a new technology. My '69 Mustang has them.
For one thing, if something breaks I AM NOT going to fix it myself, neither will most people. If you want to be a mechanic, you can go to mechanic's school and learn all of the new technlogies too. And fuel injection has nothing to do with the battery. I was able to drive from Tottenville (SI) to Mill Island (Bk) with a disconnected battery. According to my car's manual automatic transmission models cannot be pushstarted. Manuals can, but it would damage the catalytic converter.
Why can't we just upgrade old technologies to a modern standard. Using new engineering and materials. Cars would be effifient, reliable and wasy to fix and maintain.
We are upgrading old technologies to a modern standard. The internal combustion engine has been around for over a century, we're just improving it with electronic ignition, timing and fuel injection. Cars today are more efficient, reliable and easy to fix and maintain.
The thing is you [can't] FIX MODERN TECHNOLOGY. You can only replace it. If something in my car breaks I could probably fashion a replacement part myself. Godforbid there's a plague or a war and these parts cease to be available.
You're an idiot. I'm sure you have a nice life planning for plagues and wars. And how the hell are you going to fashion these parts anyway? With your trusty home smelting kit? If there's a plague or a war that destroys the world, just face it, everything will go back to the way it was in the pre-industrial era. If you want to prepare, take a horseback riding class.
One of the big problems with modern design is that engineers put too much faith in computers. Humans are smarter than computers. A human should be allowed to override any recomindation the computer makes. Also there should always be a manual override. At the flip of a switch you should be able to get manual anouncements, manual light control, manual train operation through analogue channels. Subway cars should have BOTH old and new technology for maxium felxibility and reliability.
Analogue? Stop being so Brutish (not a typo).
Trains AREN'T human controlled anymore, and haven't been since the last century. The only difference between a computerized train and an electromechanical train is that the relays are replaced by transistors. Transistors are solid state and more reliable.
And keeping old technology around doesn't create more flexibility and reliability. It just creates one extra thing to go wrong and makes the train heavier. Maybe we should put a yoke in the front of every train so if it fails, a horse can pull it.
I don't think Tracy Charlton is a Rustbird fan. Just another reporter not impressed by compuiter technology in subway cars.
Bill "Newkirk"
...but obviously not a reporter who spent any time riding the R-42 "blackout" cars before their GOHs.
I didn't feel that Midway riders were that much interested in travelling to River North, etc. The line seemed to carry mainly rush hour travel, in bound in the am and outbound in the pm. Of course, I have no ridership figures and I have't monitored the route, so I could easily be wrong.
The station dwell time with one person operation is too long to allow 90 second headway, thats all. The automated announcement helped increase efficiency though.
Two sources have told me the super station is dead in the water, and I've always had that feeling. What is a possibility is a return to skip stop, especially on the Blue Line and the State ST subway will get a great increase in routing flexibility when the new signals are up and running with the new interlockings at the north and south portals. Only time will tell if the Midway, or the Brown or the Purple gets added to the subway.
Its easy for us to speculate about tomorrow. For instance, one of Chicago's major transit wonders was the expressway median operation which may have proved to be a biggest headache and trouble source as it forces the electric trains to operate through all that road salt environment.
David Harrison
A good deal of the cheap labor in the N. Michigan shops lives on the SW side, this is just a observation I had when I worked at Crate & Barrell. Likely the hotels too.
I know several Midway riders who check out what goes on in the N. Side- a lot cheaper to live along Archer than Lincoln for one thing. Personal experience again, obviously not hyper reliable.
I thought the median salt was only a problem with a certain train series.
Nobody pays attention to the end marker lights, they use the side signs. Not to mention the fact that the lion's share of the equipment on the 6 DOES NOT have such markers.
And the express trains do not have separate line numbers.
The version of Mechanik that you already have looks quite good. I guess that Microsoft Train Simulator will look even better.
BMTJeff
That's a screenshot from MS Train Simulator.
Anyone who's tried Mechanik knows it is nowhere near as clear (low resolution), realistic (catenary poles but no wire?!), or third dimensional (trees are basically DOOM-like wall textures). Of course, maybe Microsoft is showing their "good side" here, I noticed the switch is covered by the train, mayhaps it suffers from the same problem other train simulators (Mechanik, Railsim, etc) have, which is the impossibility to "read the iron" in determining where a switch will lead you.
Only yellow on the trip arm. I've seen green signals followed by a red defective signal. I've seen dispatcher's pull clear signals to red. If the line is going to run on schedule, occationally trains will get tripped. Charge it up, go and report the defective signal. Don't challenge the double reds!
BTW Most electricity is produced by heating water to make steam and then using the pressure to spin a turbine and generator...
So the subway does run on steam - indirectly
Long ago our planet was devoid of life. The sun is the key to life.
Now and in the past when the fossil fuels were growing living vegetation or animal life, dis so with the help of the sun. Nuclear Sun.
So in effect the subways are nuclear POWERED!
avid
But the sun is powered by fusion; the subways are fishin' powered.
Woohoo! That means we can get into the cab then and take them for a joyride after all! :)
No, the sun is THERMOnuclear, that means fusion.
But what powers the sun? The sun's first fusion reactions began when the large mass, and the gravity created by that mass forced the matter into a high density, which increased in heat.
So, the subway is powered by GRAVITY.
DOUBLE TOUCHE'
avid
And sooner or later this thread will collapse of its own weight when all the hot air escapes! :)
thats why subways run in a BLACK HOLE!
avid
Oh geez..that's great. As I type this the R-142 is just barely 1/4 across the screen. (=
This was way too cool! how do you guys program this, with HTML or what? BTW-although I am a dedicated redbird fan, even I gotta admit that R-142s don't move quite THAT slow (!) Thanks and peace. Thomas: )
I couldn't have saidit better, myself!
avid
The R-142 can go as fast as 62 Miles BUT the MBTA's Bombardier red line car go 65 Miles but trains travel as fast as 27 miles per hour thats why it feels slow.
You've made my day, Paul. YOU DA MANNNN!!!!!!
I personally substitute R-10s for the acelas.
And heaven forbid if it got sent around the loop at South Ferry - the inner loop, that is.
Thanks for the correction.
I beleive that is the same guage used in Costa Rica. They had a great network of electrified rails (Catenary) until the early "90s earthquake took out several bridges.
Now a disjointed system relies on diesel power.
The capital city of San Jose' and its surrounding suburbs had a trolly system. My last trip there showed some portions of the trolley to have been abandon.
avid
Chicago's PCC L cars have Cineston controllers. No pedals, that's for surface PCC's only, and not on Chicago's two-man PCC's.
Correct me if I'm wrong on this...
I think that the previous TTC subway rail grinding train which were two very modified A-7 (car numbers in the 4400s) class multiple unit PCCs coupled back to back and refitted with grinding equipment, used before the two units of converted Gloucster cars with the grinding trailers was constructed, still had pedals. This PCC subway rail grinding train was somewhat similar to the one used on the streetcar network that still exists, although not used anymore*, but was adapted for use in the subway.
* This piece hasn't been replaced either; the two car train of modified ex Cleveland PCCs still sits at the back of the Hillcrest complex. Whoever is in charge of these matters believes that streetcar track doesn't need to be ground and it is getting rough in some places because it hasn't been. Interestingly, the two G train grinders are used regularly on the subway which doesn't have the rail wear caused by track brakes like the streetcar tracks do. I think someone else must be in charge of the subway track maintainance on this basis.
-Robert King
You guys have got to quit it....I think Thurston is making a play on the "third rail shoes" you know, the English inspired gravity devices on CTA "L" cars that contact the third rail. The design is over 100 years old but still installed on our latest technology ridin' the "L" rails.
David Harrison LOL
[I think Thurston is making a play on the "third rail shoes" you know,
the English inspired gravity devices on CTA "L" cars that contact the third rail.]
No, actually I wasn't :-(
But, thanks to my friend Dan in Balt. I know a little more about the subject. One of these days I have to let him take me for a ride :-)
Mr t
All of Chicago's PCC streetcars were delivered for two-man operation. The entire prewar fleet of Blue Geese were converted to one-man operation in 1952 and received foot pedals. A handful of Green Hornets also wound up being converted to one-man operation. Some could be operated either way. A few were actually re-converted back to two-man operation!
When CTA converted the Blue Geese (the 1936 Air-Electrics) to one man, they added a power and brake pedal, but no deadman.
As an aside, Chicago's PCC's were the ONLY PCC's equipped with a manual (foot operated, with a standard bell tap) front gong. Since they were the only PCC's ever equipped with hand controls, the motorman's feet were free do something.
Baltimore's PCC's have a manual rear gong, for use when backing up. The tap is kept in a holder next to the backup controller.
Washington's PCC's had electric gongs both at the front and rear, controlled by the operator.
Plus they sealed off one center exit door. On IRM's Blue Goose, you can see where that door was. The space for the door engines is still there, too. I'd love to see them get that car running again. It looked pretty nifty in its original paint scheme.
Amen brother.
Not at all. A minor problem can turn into a major one if it isn't addressed early.
With the new cars comming late. That spells bad news for the people useing The green line. And what compiny bulit these new cars?
Dominick Bermudez.
CAF of Spain did the exteriors, the interiors were done by AAI of Fort Hunt, MD (outside of Baltimore).
AAI of Fort Hunt, MD ????
Where's that??
AAI is in Cockeysville, MD. That's north of Baltimore. And slightly south of Hunt Valley, MD.
I meant Hunt Valley.
I know little about clubs but I have a son and a daughter who are experts. I enjoy dance music Ministry of Sound etc. Give me a day or two to get the info and I will mail you direct *off board".
Try and get a window seat on the plane on the right hand side so that if you land to the West (75% chance)at Heathrow you will get a great view over London.
Simon
Swindon UK
>the rubber tyred metros 1,4,5,6 and 14
Just a quick correction:
they are 1, 4, 6, 11and 14.
As many of you already know, the 14 is fully automated and
you get the ultimate railfan window: full width windshield
with no train operator.
And while in Paris, don't forget to open the doors yourself!! (except for lines 1 and 14)
As I have said before I once went to France for 8 days. The funny this was I only had one of those days to explore Paris. My friend and I did the Louvre in 45 minutes. We also had a pretty hair raising adventure trying to use the RER to get back to the airport. When my friend went to Paris about a month ago the RER struck again and thei missed their flight.
Anyway have a great time in London and I dare you to hang out in one of those Mind the Gap stations. I want to know how long it takes before you overdose.
Victoria station on the District/Circle lines by his hotel is a "Mind The Gap" station. He'll OD on it rather quickly. Who knows, he might create a craving for a MTG fix!
As I said before I had about 30 seconds exposure and I'm still minding gaps 7 years later. In an MTG overdose you state minding gaps so much that your brain forgets to mind other things like breathing and your heartbeat so you die.
I know exactly what you're talking about. About every other day I hear "MIIIIIND THE GAP" in my head. Fortunately I don't have to worry about a MTG overdose as I have instructed my wife to launch her foot directly into my posterior whenever an MTG overdose occurs so as to snap me out of it. Funny though, she even does it even if there is no MTG occurrance. Hmmmmm........
You'll have a blast. I'll be there myself from February 24th to March 21st.
A few things to consider:
1) If you can, don't use British Airways, use Virgin Atlantic instead. BA is just like any regular commercial airline and offers you the same amenities. Virgin Atlantic gives you a personal TV screen that shows up to 20 channels of pre-recorded movies, British shows, news, etc. It also has a Nintendo game system built in (this feature alone should be good for a third of your flight from Chicago). And it's all free. And the service is outstanding. Fly them once and you'll never fly with anyone else (I know that I won't). Of course if you've already purchased your ticket then disregard this, but keep it in mind for next time.
2) Purchase a "Paris Visite" unlimited 1 day Paris Metro pass at the same time that you purchase your Eurostar ticket at Waterloo Station. Only get the 3 zone pass when you do. Doing all this will save you a few $$$.
3) In London, ALWAYS PURCHASE A ONE DAY TRAVELCARD WHEN YOU START YOUR DAY!!! They cost from 4.00 GBP for zones 1 & 2, up to 4.90 GBP for zones 1-6 (the city is in zone 1, Heathrow is in zone 6). Weekend travelcards cost 6.00 and 7.30 respectively and are good for travel all day Saturday AND Sunday. Travelcards are also available for zones 1-4. Don't bother with purchasing a weekly travelcard, it can actually cost you MORE than purchasing six different one day travelcards, and you need a special photo ID to use it. They're a pain in the a**.
4) In London visit the London Transport Museum located in the Covent Garden Piazza (Piccadilly Line to Covent Garden). It's a very very nice place. It even has a train driver simulator. Oh, and bring cash for the gift shop!
5) Victoria isn't a bad place in my opinion. You'll do just fine over there. Check out hoteldiscounts.com for some great London and Paris hotel deals otherwise.
6) In Paris, if you decide to go up the Eiffel Tower then DO IT EARLY!! The lines and crowds inside can get really bad with waits up to 2 hours on the weekends. And if you do go up then just go up to the second level, the third level is enclosed and was a disappointment (and it cost extra).
If you have any other questions or need specific directions to any point in London or Paris (I know them both very well), either e-mail me or leave a post on this board and I'll be glad to answer it. BTW, after riding the Eurostar you'll never look at Amtrak the same way again. Only person that I know who wasn't too thrilled with it was Jersey Mike, and that's because he's nuts! (Just kidding JM).
IIRC the subway gum machines were orange. You put your coin in a slot in front of column holding the gumn you desired. After the coin dropped, you turned a gray dial type knob to have the product drop into the bottom where you picked up it. Is this the machine you have?
I don't recall mirrors on them, but then again my memory could be playing tricks on me.
Perhaps its from another subway system, why do you think its NYC ?
40 cents for a transfer is fair given that the fare is only $1.15.
Why doesn't go the "Metrocard" route like the NYCT did. Our ridership skyrocketed. You have to give the riding public an incentive to ride and transfer. Has SEPTA been watching NYCT lately ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Your ridership skyrocketed due to the unlimited ride Metrocards, which SEPTA already had. And the fare in Philly is $1.15 only if you buy tokens ahead of time, to pay a subway cashier (in stations without token machines, or machines that aren't working, or you only have a $10 and don't want to buy $10 worth of tokens) or on a bus, the fare is $1.60. That comes to $2 with a transfer. NY is a lot cheaper.
But there is no reason you shouldn't use tokens. TVM's are all over the place and SEPTA timetables often contain lists of private retailers where one can buy tokens. I mean how hard it is to buy 2 tokens to get the big discount. The only people who pay 1.60 are the lazy (its their own damn fault) and the tourists who don't know better. Basically SEPTA is making money off of idiots. I applaud their efforts.
TVM's aren't necessarily all over the place and they often do not work. Many of the retailers who sell tokens only sell the 10-pack.
Yes, it's not the brightest thing for anyone to pay $1.60 when they can get a discount. Of course, many of them end up paying $2 since they don't have change.
It's not about laziness, it's about convenience. What reason could there be for not having vending machines in every subway station? And suppose it's night and you're taking a bus. And the "cashiers" who don't make change REALLY annoy me.
When I go in to Philly to ride SEPTA, I make darn sure I buy tokens.
It's absurd to pay $1.60 when I can ride for $1.15.
The only problem is that not everybody in Philly can buy tokens close to them, and they end up coughing up the $1.60. For this, they have my sympathy, not scorn! They are not idiots.
Chuck Greene
I thought about this for another day, and your comparison to New York is faulty. NY's base fare is $1.50, while "multiple use discounts" are available by buying metrocards, whether they be unlimited cards, or multiple rides. If I buy a card with 10 rides, I get a discounted price. This should be comparable to SEPTA's multiple token purchase price of $1.15 for two or more tokens. By comparing SEPTA's $1.15 base fare to NY's $1.50 is comparing apples and oranges. The cost for ONE ride on SEPTA is $1.60, and in NY, it is $1.50. From there down you can compare the various discount schemes, which I believe are then in Philly's favor, however one cannot say that Philly's $1.15 fare is comparable to NY's $1.50 fare. If SEPTA's Viagrafied fare increase does come about, that will be the last straw in my decision to abandon the city that I believe has "so much possibilities," but nothing in practice. Transit fares may not be such a "quality of life" issue to many suburbanites or auto-addicts, but while living in a relatively crime- and blight-free neighborhood, with decent trash pickup (what else does the city do?), transit fares become an important issue.
your "Relatively crime- and blight-free neighborhood" is a product of local government providing effective policing and working to create, hopefully through low local taxes, an environment which encourages small business to thrive in a neighborhood, driving out blight
You're all right-on except for the "low local taxes." Philadelphia, already highest in the nation, also has "special service districts" (like NY's 42nd St. Partnership) which assess a voluntary (although universally paid) tax on businesses in most districts for supplemental services not provided by the city. The Center City District (CCD) is quite successful, and their uniformed street-sweeper/tourist information spouter/security attache/generally nice people employees are loved and respected by residents and tourists alike. But this adds to the tax burden on Philly residents a little, but more importantly on businesses. Center City has finally seen a rennaissance to the point where the residential population is booming, but where many now commute to the suburbs, just like the typical "welfare to work" unskilled service worker. The business taxes strangle CC residents indirectly, in that no one would dream of starting a knowledge- (new-) economy business within the city limits. Philly has more college students than any other city in the world, but this advantage is thrown out the window with the business tax. Sure, such suburban towns as Blue Bell and Malvern have produced "Silicon Valley Forge," but single 22 year olds don't want to live in Blue Bell. They want to live in Old City. If NY can give them a high-tech job within a transit line's commute of inexpensive but hip housing, they will choose NY over suburban Chester county any day.
>>Why doesn't go the "Metrocard" route like the NYCT did. Our ridership skyrocketed.<<
SEPTA does have a Metrocard. They just call it a TransPass (or TrailPass for The Regional Rail and Suburban routes).
Why doesn't SEPTA go the "Metrocard" route like the NYCT did. Our ridership skyrocketed. You have to give the riding public an incentive to ride and transfer. Has SEPTA been watching NYCT lately ?
Bill "Newkirk"
SEPTA has decided to NOT charge people for a transfer they won't use. Some people transfer, others do not. Would you love the option of paying a $1.10 subway fare and just not getting the free transfer?
No.
The transfer in New York was a free add-on. The fare was $1.50 well before intermodal transfer priviledges were added, and no additional fare was ever charged for them.
As for busses, so many trips involve two busses, it doesn't make a lick of sense to to not give out free transfers to everyone, since the MAJORITY will be using them.
No, I'm sorry - you're wrong. SEPTA does charge for trasfers people don't use. A 1-month TransPass is much more expensive than a month's worth of tokens. I hate buying and carrying tokens, but I have no choice. It's not worth paying an extra $18 per month just to carry a card. The TransPass is designed for people who use more than just the subway and trolleys to commute. If the subway and trolleys are all you use, you're screwed.
I really agree that SEPTA needs to make their TransPass more like the MetroCard. They have the card readers system-wide already. Cards would be more convenient for riders, and probably more cost-effective for SEPTA.
You're right on the button. From my former home in South Phila, I had to take two vehicles to get to my workplace. In today's fare terms, that's base fare plus 40 cents. The ride was maybe four miles in length.
Where I live now it's a one-seat ride, for a distance of 7-8 miles. So I get twice the mileage on 40 cents less fare. That makes no sense at all.
Also, the TrailPass is no bargain. If you want to buy one, you'd better use it or lose big.
The problem that SEPTA continues to have is the combination of outmoded work rules and a totally inflexible fare system. The transit and Regional Rail fares have no commonality except if one uses the TrailPass. I could transfer between the two on many trips I take, but it involves two separate fares. Thus, a 'MetroCard' arrangement might make a lot of sense IF it were good for ALL rides (transit and RR) within the City limits. Since the City subsidizes SEPTA greatly, perhaps all rides within City limits should be at a single rate (and I realize that this could get tricky, since the upper end of R3 West Trenton slides back into the city after leaving at Melrose Park).
The transfer arrangement is also unwieldy, and it should be replaced to allow UNIVERSAL use (not just for connecting services). This could include off-peak round trips within certain time guidelines as well as same-direction (to accommodate parents who must drop off and pick up children at day care, etc, to cite one example). SEPTA is currently studying this, but we all know what happens to studies, if they ever get completed.
Personally I don't mind paying the high fare (and, again, there are ways to make it cheaper, such as tokens, but those TVM's aren't anywhere near any bus stops, just the subway/el), but I expect a much higher level of service for it. The way SEPTA is going, the service is decreasing while the fare has held at the same level, which only implies that any increase or even holding of current levels with a fare increase is negated.
Now that is unfair. SEPTA is adding a lot of routes and doing a lot of stuff to improve service. Remember how late night rt100 service was hourly. Now it every half hour, and they keep adjusting the service. They are also doing a lot of renovations and such as well. However, I still think they should be keeping the same fare, and not going NJTransit's expensive fare way, which has the most expensive fares. Plus, don't forget that the Regional Rail and Transit are TWO different divisions. Plus, for train to bus routes, I think there is a transfer option for those.
Which part is unfair? I don't see any improvements on my line despite the many problems which have been brought to SEPTA's attention. The only thing I see is continued cutbacks in service, always attributed to the operating ratio (and SEPTA itself has made this the issue by lengthening the line to the point at which it can't be a 'winner'). The drivers are not so good and many have attitudes, which for $20 plus an hour should not be the case. The equipment on my line is brand new but still has problems which only hurts service.
I will admit that improvements are more common now than they were several years ago, but I still believe that the fare structure is outmoded and despite the divisional structure should offer more connectivity between transit and RR. Yes, there are some routes which do permit such transfers, but there are none in the city and there are maybe a half-dozen of these anywhere in the system. There should be more, especially in the city where 85% of the ridership exists. If there were such a system in place, SEPTA would not have to put all the express buses onto the Schuylkill every day - riders could be shuttled to RR stations and use some of the excess capacity there.
I've been taking the bus for over 40 years, from before I could walk to now, and as long as I can remember, it hasn't gotten any better, despite what SEPTA's self-aggrandizing campaign attempts to say. I would challenge you to get to know the system a little and see the many problems that it has, which SEPTA will for whatever reasons not address.
Same ol' same ol' for SEPTA.
Baltimore went to a flat $1.35 per ride, extensive pass usage (day - also sold on vehicles/Fare machines for $3.00; weekly and monthly) an NO transfers. Tossed a 125 year old fare system in the trashcan.
Ridership - on the bus side - went up 9% the first year.
SEPTA did look at ours and drooled.
They have publicly admiited that the current system is outmoded, difficult to use and impossible to understand.
However, unless they are willing to do what Baltimore did, any revisions will only be band-aids on a gunshot wound.
What line do you ride? Also, the drivers don't get paid 20 plus an hour, at least, not from what i've seen on the site. Only up to 19 something they get paid. I've never heard of many cutbacks in service, except on a few routes, and it wasn't too much anyway. The 110 bus now has expresses on Saturdays. Also, if you have such problems with SEPTA, bring it up with them. That's what those things called "public hearings" are about. But anyway, at least they are trying to make some imporvements, and TWU Local 234 doesn't help much with their several strikes in the past several years. About maybe 4 or 5 years ago, was there any such thing as a train to bus route? No. Just have a tiny bit of faith, and I'm sure that things will get better. And I agree with you that there should be more transfer oppurtunities in the city. Besides, don't forget the fact that everyone is pressuring SEPTA to renovate so many stations, make so many new routes, build this new SVM line, and yet update and work on their lines. Maybe they do more work for the more important and popular lines, like the MFL and the route 100, but finally they are going to renovate the BSL City Hall Station. Plus, they are getting new buses, running this transit museum, and this and that. Plus, they are even giving out free newspapers and such. Also, I don't know what kind of crazy drivers you get in the city, but out here in the suburbs there are nicer drivers (Pat Greene for the rt 100 is one) and others. This one lady on the 105 would let you off anywhere on the route, even if it's not a designated bus stop. Plus, if they have attitudes, it's their fault and their personality flaw, not SEPTAs. Anyway, sometimes it really annoys me how everyone looks at the negative things about SEPTA, making it look like crap every second of the day. But it isn't entirely bad. It's hard work running such a huge transit system, especially if it also serves one of the biggest and most famous cities. Maybe it's because I haven't been alive for 40 years yet, or even 20, but I think there may be some sort of biasy in here, making SEPTA look 10 times worse than it my or may not be?
People do put a lot of pressure on SEPTA to make new lines and please everyone. It is hard for them to do so. Sure there is room for improvement, such as putting high platforms at more Regional Rail stops and bringing back streetcar service on some lines that lost it not too long ago. The strikes didn't help much either. But at least Steve Brookens was removed as TWU 234's boss. From what I've read, he was much of the problem. Now that he's gone, we should have some faith that relations between the union and SEPTA may improve.
And hopefully, we'll get to see the old Route 15 streetcar line rise up from the ashes as the Girard Avenue Light Rail line!
I think it would be nice to have streetcar service again. Maybe they took it away before because it was too problematic with people blocking the lines and creating so many delays? Anyway, they should really enforce the laws on not to block trolley tracks with fines and such. Then, I think the most logical thing to do is to bring them back. However, they should have offroad service on some of them, which makes it more useful as a lightrail line than just a streetcar service.
I would think with cars and trucks blocking the trolley lanes, that could have been a problem. Fortunately, Girard Avenue is a fairly wide street for much of its existence and could have its LRV tracks physically separated from the auto lanes by some kind of concrete or metal barrier and be given traffic priority signals.
I know that by the zoo, the trolley tracks are on it's own right of way. However, I heard somewhere that there are some parts where the road is pretty narrow.
I know that by the zoo, the trolley tracks are on it's own right of way. However, I heard somewhere that there are some parts where the road is pretty narrow.
I ride the 9 and 27. Take a look at the current schedules. The headways are awful - 10 minutes on 9 in peak, 8 on 27, but they aren't sufficient. Also, the schedules are fiction.
Five years ago the 27 had 6 minute headways in the peaks. A couple of PM outbounds started at City Hall to be there in case there were any expressway, etc delays. Now the PM peak headway is 10 minutes, the gap runs are gone, and the excuse is that the service is provided by articulated buses, thus there are more seats. So when the buses run 2 and 3 in succession after one waits for over minutes, the consolation is that there are many more seats?
I don't want to decry SEPTA. It's got a tough job and little support. However, I have been to public meetings, written letters to the GM, spoke with various folks there, and the answer is always the same - the trouble's in my set, so to speak, not SEPTA's problem. I went to a service hearing last year with a proposal to revise the routing, and was turned down because some other person - not a rider of the route, he admitted - didn't think it was a good idea!
While there are several nice and courteous drivers on the line, I have been told that assignment to 9 and 27 is often a disciplinary thing since few drivers want the routes, thus we get more of the 'head cases' than other lines get. But, as you noted, there are exceptions - the driver I get in the AM is courteous, has waited for me when I'm in sight and he gets to the corner before me, and even apologized when the route didn't operate in the snowstorm a couple of weeks ago. (There's another example of SEPTA's snafu mentality, though - the news media reported that service was normal, but one driver complained about alleged slippery conditions, so a supervisor sent buses on an alternate route, despite the TV and radio advisories that indicated otherwise.)
SEPTA is improving things in several areas, but it seems to have some biases when it comes to certain areas. The reputation that riders of 9 and 27 have is one of complainers, and there is basis to this, but it's because we see our lines getting the short shrift too often. Yes, we have new articulated buses, but they haven't been all that dependable. Yes, we have one-seat service to the Metroplex and Plymouth Meeting Mall, but who needs it (the Metroplex add-on, begun last year, adds 5 minutes to each mall run, again with no additional buses on the line). Most 27's I ride are next to empty where I leave in the PM about 2 miles shy of Barren Hill. It's hard to imagine why a 60-foot bus needs to go all the way to Plymouth Meeting when a Frontier line could meet it at Summit loop or Barren Hill to go the rest of the way.
I truly don't want to cast SEPTA in a negative light, and, as much as it seems I don't when you read what I write, I am a supporter and user of SEPTA. Unfortunately, it doesn't have its finger on the pulse of the ridership, however.
A: You would think that SEPTA would pay drivers of articulated buses more than drivers of regular buses, which would mean that they would be better.
B: The one thing I love is how SEPTA is saying they have added service to the 27, when they really haven't.
After a few recent experiences on my beloved 27, I'm beginning to wonder if (a) the drivers get a premium for getting to the end of the line ahead of time, (b) they are in training for the NASCAR circuit, or (c) they just like driving on the edge and scaring the living @*#$ out of the riders. I'm not sure they're trained all that well and they're probably not very good drivers to begin with, so this only gets magnified when they get behind the wheel of a 60-foot bus.
I was a bit amused when the publicity on the spring schedule changes highlighted the additional service on the 27, only to go on to note that it was merely the extension of a single trip from Barren Hill to Plymouth Mall. This follows the same logic that SEPTA uses that the service is better because there are more seats on the line than before. When the 'seats' show up late, in terms of buses in groups of 2 or 3, to me, the customer, the service isn't necessarily better just because there are more seats.
Also, one has to wonder who's in charge. With yesterday's snow, the news media announced this morning that the 27 was not going beyond Summit. My driver noted that he wasn't sure whether they would be operating on Henry since some drivers were complaining about slippery conditions (which weren't there), so the buses were being held. This does a great deal of good to those riders waiting on cold corners for buses that don't show because some drivers refuse to make the runs. This is what SEPTA seems to be all about these days - not service to the riders.
Do you mean Mattituck ?
If that's the correct spelling of the eastern L.I. town, I suppose that's what I mean.
New York & Atlantic did buy a bunch of 'em, but they haven't repainted them all yet.
They got some old diesel engines at the Jamaica yard. Saw them when I went by on the Flatbush line.
They still use them as switchers in LIC yard. They couple to the DE(M)30ACs and pull them from the non-platform tracks to either the Hunterspoint or Lower Montauk lines, then back to 8 and 9 at departure time.
All MP15AC's are still on Lirr property. NY&A has four of them, all but one are painted. The MP's are used on all work trains, and are used to pull the stupid DM30's when they crap out. They are not leaving any time in the future. They are quite busy behind the scenes. I know people knock them, but they can pull good. I know, I run them.
I know they have a lot of power, I remember my first trip on an Oyster Bay bilevel. A 5 car train with an MP-15 and F-7-A had to push my 4 car C-3 with a dead DE30AC from east of Glen Head to Jamaica. They transferred us off the new train and onto the old train, and at a roaring 15 MPH with the lights on the old coaches flickering like crazy (not enough power to go to the cars?), the combined train rolled into Jamaica with the DE30AC train 3 hours late, and the MP15 train 2 hours late. My respect for the MP-15s rose considerably on that day.
NY & Atl has had 4 for a while (maybe the 4 they have now aren't the same as in the May Train article ...151, 155, 156, & 159).
Are the Blue & White ones still LIRR used to move coaches/dead dual modes around ?
Would you know how many GP-38s they have ?
Mr t__:^)
What kind of logic is he using?
The kind you have when you've put away a few too many Margaritas...
Sounds like upstate NY logic. They think that if you refuse to provide infrastructure, the outsiders from the next county or two will go away.
Seems like: "If so many people like the county enough to keep moving here without such an improvement, why make the improvement?"
Seems like: "If so many people like the county enough to keep moving here without such an improvement, why make the improvement?"
Which, when you think about it, is sort of like saying "My car runs okay, why bother to change the oil?"
It's a lot easier dealing with things before they become a problem. Someday the politicians in Gwinnett County will wake up and realize that traffic IS intolerable and growth is suffering as a result. Then they'll be kicking themselves for not have built transit lines years before.
No, they'll be kicking themselves for not doing more to keep the outsiders away. Preventing growth is the name of that game.
Someday the politicians in Gwinnett County will wake up and realize that traffic IS intolerable and growth is suffering as a result. Then they'll be kicking themselves for not have built transit lines years before
That day is fast approaching. More and more people are getting fed up with traffic. The MARTA stations closest to Gwinnett are packed every morning. An express bus system is expected to start up in less than a year to feed the nearest MARTA stations and downtown. Support for the politcans in Gwinnett is dwindling, hopefully by the next election, Shackleford is out.
Glad to see that you guys down there have finally overcome what my buddy "Cump" Sherman did to your state back in 1864. Time does heal most wounds.
The hellhole that is Gwinnett County is the sole reason that Atlanta has it's traffic and sprawl reputation. The city itself is really nice with nice charming neighborhoods and skyscrapers. Your buddy Sherman didn't do nearly as much damage as f%^$ing Gwinnett is doing now.
What kind of logic is he using?
Perhaps the same logic as a David Hutzelman, who is director of Houston's Business Committee Against Rail's political action committee, who wrote this letter-to-the-editor in today's Times: The Unplanned Houston
His article makes a lot of sense. I detest zoning and it does nothing more than harm economic development and create housing shortages, while solving few problems.
Zoning was created to prevent buildings like the Equitable from towering over everything else. Now the Equitable is one of the shortest buildings downtown, and zoning has been used by idealists who know squat about the real world to screw everything else up.
That's the attitude of someone who really things the inner city denizens of Atlanta would use mass transit to go out to the suburbs, steal peoples' belongings and take them back into the city with them ("Hey buddy, if you're gonna put that sofa and refigerator in the seats next to you, you're gonna have to pay two more fares!")
The attitude usually changes after the highway commuting situation has become intolerable for enough people, which may still be a few years down the line for Gwinnett County.
Hmm. Sounds like Glendale.
join
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYCBUSBLINDS
Feb was just released as of today ,Friday
this month--Surface items only -B7
Steve
Can anyone explain why this R27, operating on the Franklin Ave. shuttle, has a BMT number 7 on it's bulkhead? The pic is of R27 8047 and it's dated in 1982!
I always thought the R27's were all given the new BMT letter markings when they first went into service in 1960 ....
It was the BMT LETTERS rollsign's turn to
drive the train..(note the open cab door)..
and the T/O's turn to ham it up at the
railfan window... and the 7 is not one bit
happy.. notice she looks a little gloomier
than "PROSPECT PARK"...
I'd betcha it came out of one of the R-11/R-34 cars......
More likely, an R16.
Yeah, but why? The numbers had ceased to be used in any capacity in 1969, except for the few R11's which lasted into the mid 70's. Since they weren't installed when the car was new, I can't think of a logical explanation for an R27 having them, especially in the 1980's.
I would guess someone in the CI yard did it just to have a little fun, if they knew those cars would be assigned to the Franklin Shuttle. Broadway local passengers in 1982 seeing a No. 2 train coming down the track -- especially if they were waiting at Times Square -- might have done a double-take to make sure they didn't go down to the IRT platform by mistake.
That reminds me of the R-11 picture I have of a Sea Beach #4 coming into the Kings Highway Station on January 24, 1970, my wife's birthday. The trouble was the Sea Beach stopped using #4 for the letter N in 1967. That must have seemed wierd to anyone waiting for a train, and I still don't why the TA did something like that. Since I married my wife later that year, I used that picture as my desktop for over a year.
It's probably a Zabel sign-up job.
Hey, Jeff. I'm with you on this one. Bet Zabel rigged it up for the shot! That sounds like something he would've done.
BTW, after I left (9:15), how much longer did the slideshow last? It certainly looked like one of the better shows.
BMTman
About another 1/2 hour. Although there were no such shots shown
at tonight's ERA meeting, Steve was known for setting up unusual
shots when he worked the shuttle.
Jeff H. and BMTman are right !!
That was a Steve Zabel sign up job. Back in 1981, Steve who was operating the Franklin Shuttle spread the word that he was going to bring his own sign box and sign up the R-27/30' with the old route numbers.
This was at the time that the TA was threatening to shut down the Franklin Avenue Shuttle for good. So we had a sign up session with Steve operating in passenger service. About a dozen or so guys showed. This went on for a couple of weekend.
I was there and even Steve walked me through the seldom used "Malbone St. Wreck" tunnel to shoot a southbound with the #7 Franklin at track level. I have a wild shot of an R-27/30 stopped and posed by Steve at Botanic Garden with the tunnel brickwork in full view. The route sign was signed up 13-FULTON ST. Prospect Park !!
Steve had another notorius sign up session at Rockaway Park at the time of the Nostalgia Special. There was some mothballed GE R-16's there. He had some signs like, 3-TT, 10-M, 14-KK etc.
Bill "Newkirk"
If and when they move the R-62s over to the Flushing Line, it would be interesting if someone "borrowed" one of the front route signs off one of those cars while it was in the Coney Island shop and "loaned" it to one of the R-68s on the Franklin shuttle, just to see if anyone was paying attention.
Will the mbta buy new blue line trains? If so will they be from Siemens or some other company?
Yes, the MBTA is planning to buy all new cars for the blue line. In addition, it plans to add more trains to the orange line as well. I believe that the design and biddings were supposed to happen last fall, but I haven't heard anything about it since the T raised fares last September. -Nick
The T has put the new Blue Line cars out to bid. They will be from the lowest bidder as prescibed by MA state law. I believe that Breda will be eliminated from the bidding if they should choose to bid due to the Green Line Type 8 fiasco.
I personnally hope they are as nice as the Bombardier's on the Red, as they have worked out well, except for soft wheels causing flat spots.
Word at the latest BSRA meeting is that the existing cars will likely not be rehabbed for Orange Line service, it seems that when they replaced the floors some years ago, the underframes were not given much attention, and are now starting to fail. The roofs are also in tough shape after only 21 years in service. 1923 cars lasted to 1980 with 28 years of salty outdoor operation and storage, though the roofs had more sealer than steel at the end.
It's time for a whole new fleet on both Orange and Blue Lines!
Now I know haw sallam feels when people talk bad about the red birds a happen to really like the Blue LIne cars. I like the orangle line cars as weel. I don't want to see ethier taken out of service.
Would you rather sit with water pouring in on a rainy day? ...or have the floor fail in a minor accident? The Orange Line cars are much less exposed to the salt spray and weather and should fulfill the usual 35 year life expectancy.and be replaced in 2015 or so.
I understand that the cars need to go but with there was a way to keep them. From what I understand the new cars will be dull stainless steel.
"From what I understand the new cars will be dull stainless steel."
Well, duh! Anyone who is going to spend a fortune on subway cars will want them to last longer this time around. But in addition to the steel, I'd imagine there would be a pretty blue stripe as well :-)
Peace,
Nick
They've known about the frame problem all along. The Orange is looking for 3 or 4 train sets for the rush. They are not ready to replace the rest of the Orange Line fleet yet, as they haven't the roof leakage caused by placing the grids and blower motors on the roof on the Blue Line cars.
If they use the Blue Line cars, they have parts already in stock. If they buy 18 or 24 cars, they will have to stock parts for them or shuttle back and forth to Orient Heights to get them. When they finally replace the existing fleet, they will still have these orphans that can't run anywhere else.
A lot of the decision depends on what the bid will be for the small order of 18 - 24 cars and how funding is at the time.
I won't pretend to be an expert on railway procurement, but intuitively it seems that MBTA will be hard-pressed to get good pricing on 24 (or fewer) subway cars unless they cooperate with another transitt agency to get part of the same rolling stock order.
In the 1980's, Bombardier charged NYCTA $900,000+ per car for a 200-something car order; today, they're charging $1.2 million (or is it 1.4 million?) per car on an order where the TA is buying over 1,000 cars (though half will come from Kawasaki, right? Again, someone correct me).
Even if we take into account the MTA's demands and specs and the hard time manufacturers have meeting them, how does MBTA expect not to pay exhorbitant prices for a production run of 24 cars?
These 24 Orange Line cars would be an option on the 100+ Blue Line order. Orange cars are longer, a little higher at the door, no pantos and would have ATO provision. I bet the T would be happy with anything under $2 mil per.
Thanks for the info. Under $2 million per order would be reasonable in today's market.
Orange and Blue cars do look like brother and sister, don't they? Most parts must be common as well, I imagine.
The economies of scale was why the Orange Line order was placed in 1978 when the existing fleet was only 20 years old. The total cars ordered went from 70 Blue Line cars (replacing 88) to 120 Orange Line Cars (replacing 100). The size of the Blue Line cars required the additional equipment on the roof, and therefore the additional roof penetrations. Sadly, the ridership on these lines went up, requiring longer trains on the Blue Line and more service on the Orange Line. The (T) also made a quick effort to dispose of the stored 01100 fleet in 1987, in the face of the public possibly forcing continued Washington Street El service in lieu of a replacement surface line (14 years and still a bus line - with no improvement in sight other than articulated CNG buses). The lack of cars then gave the (T) enough breathing time to get the El demolition contract signed, taking the option off the table permanently. The Washington Street Corridor Coalition is still fighting for light rail, but the (T) doesn't want any part of it. Now the 'Arborway Committee' is up in arms over a similar push by the (T) to permanently bus that line.
Gerry
Interesting info. There are others who have posted here stating that the T is rehabbing the Heath-Arborway service, and that its elimination is just misinformation. I am in no position to tell what is really going on (I did live in the Boston area for two years, 96-98).
Also, while the new Orange Line doesn't serve the same areas the old El did, one could make the argument that the T had promoted the new line as a replacement for an unsightly, old elevated, and so its demolition was a promise that it had to keep. How did most of the public in Boston feel about that?
I personally would like to see the T build another subway trunk under Washington Street, with branches to provide some east-west service as well.
The E line was rehabbed from Brigham Circle to Heath... and the T
had threatened to cut it back to Brigham until community pressure
made them relent. Right now there are NO plans to rebuild the
Heath to Arborway section; as Gerry said, the T does not want to
do it. But a recent law suit has led the T to reluctatly do
the study that Gerry mentions. My guess is that the T will find
a way to kill even this spark of hope. What a shame.
I know that the T pointed to the narrow ROW to Arborway as a problem for its trolley cars. But why do they object to running service to Heath Street?
Two reasons.
1. ADA compliancy on the street running portion is next to impossible. How do you get the surrounding street 8" higher and yet use the tracks as a portion of the street as well? It's only a matter of time before the T is forced to either comply or shut down the line. Luckily, the type 8's are a dismal failure and the T has this as an excuse, for now.
2. The T doesn't like street running. There are significantly more accidents. Mixing with autos plays havoc with the schedule causing gaps in service or bunching of runs. This also causes problems within the subway, most noticable at rush hour.
What does this bode for the other trolley lines (the B, C and D)? All have above ground sections.
The B and C routes run in seperate grassy medians down the middle of their respective streets, and stops have at least a minimal platform. The D branch has its own ROW. The only interaction with automobiles on the B, C, and D branches is at intersections where cars are crossing the tracks; on the street-running portion of the E branch, LRV's are actually running within the traffic lanes. I can see why the T thinks this is a problem (nevermind the fact that almost all streetcars in most cities was street-running), but I don't see any reason other measures couldn't be taken to make street running easier for the LRV's. Possible common-sense solutions would be to mandate that all automobile traffic yeild to LRV's and to give LRV's priority at traffic signals. Seems to work well for other cities that have light rail, but methinks the MBTA is simply using the street-running issue as a cop-out excuse for trimming back the Green Line.
As far as ADA issues go, I'm not sure how even the low-floor Type-8's would be wheelchair-accessible in the street-running portions. However, I'm sure a solution exisits and Boston would only have to look to other cities like Portland to see how these issues are resolved. But then, as politically liberal as Boston is, they seem even more conservative than Chicago when it comes to exploring innovative transit technology. Hell, they're just now "studying" the feasibility of stored-value transit cards as opposed to tokens and cash fares.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thanks for the info.
I rode the Green Line as far as Longwood (Boston Children's Hospital), where it runs in its own ROW except for intersections, so I never saw the trolleys actually comingle with cars.
You're right in that it would be reasoable to try to separate the trolley from traffic as much as possible. As to the stations themselves, I'd like to see raised platforms, or something like it (but all trolley stations would need that, including the underground ones, so using ADA to shut down a trolley line is purely bogus.).
"As to the stations themselves, I'd like to see raised platforms, or something like it (but all trolley stations would need that, including the underground ones, so using ADA to shut down a trolley line is purely bogus.)"
The MBTA has raised some platforms on the D line...at Riverside, Newton Center (I think), Resevoir, and Fenway. Eventually all of the D line platforms are supposed to be raised, but meanwhile they have other wooden ramps and/or other devices to let wheelchair passengers off. They have used the type 8 on the B and C lines as well, but you are right that the platforms are quite narrow...and thats just for people walking on 2 feet, not to mention wheelchaired passengers. -Nick
All of the Green Line platforms were supposed to be 8" high as of the end of 2000. The 8" height is critical for the bridge plates that would come out of the low floor doors on the Type 8's. the max distance of the bridge plates sticking out the side of the trolley is 8'. Imagine you have a wheelchair disembarking on South Huntington Ave with the bridgeplate out 8'. Yeah, sure that truck driver/soccer mom/ (insert your favorite driver here) is going to stop. Of course it's a law! It's also the only place I can think of north of Philly where there is a street running trolley.
As far as an ADA shutdown of potions of the T, they are out of compliance as of the end of 2000. All it would really take is a judge with an agenda. We'd all be walkin'.
Well, a judge with an agenda can do anything he wants. If the T were judged to be illegally out of compliance, I suppose T management would say "Screw it. We're closing down and providing ADA bus compliance instead."
Would there be a judge cranky enough and brave enough to say "No, that violates the spirit of my orders" - I guess not.
>If the T were judged to be illegally out of compliance, I suppose T >management would say "Screw it. We're closing down and providing ADA >bus compliance instead."
That's exactly what they wanted to do on the Arboway line before a judgement came down against them. So now they have ADA groups trying to make them comply and local civil groups saying restore the street running. So far, they haven't been able to do either. There is no compromising from any side of the issue. It a tough spot to be in.
Which is why the real answer is to invest in platforms and equipment to make sure it is compliant. Ah, but that costs money...
"Hell, they're just now "studying" the feasibility of stored-value transit cards as opposed to tokens and cash fares."
Thats because the unions oppose progress in any form. Heck the teachers union even is against the idea.
David,
It looks like the T will skip the value added card and go right for the smart card with the transducer. You only will have to have it somewhere on your person. Works like an EZ pass/ Fast Lane transducer. Probably draw right from your checking account. It'll probably pay for your parking, too. That's actually what they're looking at these days.
But they are all in ROWs not street running
Maybee they could be a few redbirds that aren't rusted.
"I personnally hope they are as nice as the Bombardier's on the Red, as they have worked out well, except for soft wheels causing flat spots."
I do like the Bombardier 01800 series cars myself....although I have noticed that the first coat of rust can already be seen on the cabs. That's not good for "stainless steel" that is less then a decade old. I wonder if Kawasaki will make a bid. -Nick
I was going back into Manhattan from visiting a friend at 2:00 PM & was told that there was NO F trains south of Church Av because someone got hit by a train.
Does anyone have anynews about this accident.
Might be someone not FOLLO-ing the rules.
Not FOLLO-ing the rules. LOL & LMAO at that one. Best laugh I had all day.
BIG AL
P.S. You should see the comments on bustalk about this guy.
The only info I have is that there was a 12-9 on the Manhattan bound track at Avenue X Friday afternoon. A few days ago, the 12:19 F from 179 St. had a 12-9 at Ditmas Ave.
Maybe it was that dork from Bustalk who polluted our lines two days ago. If so, I feel sorry for the train.
Actually, the guy at Ditmars on Wednesday leapt too early. The T/O said on the radio that the front coupler was right over him when the train stopped. The person then climbed up out of the roadbed and entered the train. Where else would you have to get to, if you'd just jumped in front of a train?
Which brings me to another question. Frequency wise, where does B1 end and B2 begin on the Culver? Church Ave?
I think at the point where the F train emerges into the fresh air. Underground would be the B2 and outside would be the B1.
If you're referring to B1 and B2 divisions unless they've given the Culver trackage back to B1 the whole line would be B2. When I worked on the system [and since the IND takeover in 1954 with D trains going to Coney Island] the Culver whether D or F was the only IND, later B2 line into Coney Island, and all line supervision from the B2 or IND desk. Perhaps this was changed. Let me know if the Culver is B1 once again.
South of Church Ave., the crews are required to change their radio channel to B1. Therefore, that part of the F line is under the B1 for purposes of Control Center transmissions. BTW: the #7 line also keeps their radio's on B1 for the entire run eventhough the #7 line, of course, is an IRT route.
Interesting. Wonder when they did that, but logical he whole Southern section should be on the same channel. Yes, I can remember the 7 line on B1 as well. Used to be a funny feeling knowing you were technically working A diviision and hearing "BMT" business.
A friend and I are in the preliminary stages of designing an HO-model R-68 train set. We'd like to produce a four-car set, with one car powered; if expenses work out, maybe two of these sets can be asembled into a train which can then be displayed at a local model RR club, or the Transit Museum, or whatever.
Rather than using brass, which is expensive, my friend has asked one of his friends, who does plastic molding, for help. We plan to use a stock truck from an HO flat car or boxcar for the trailers, and a locomotive (minus the body) for the power car.
I'm also trying to see if I can produce a bulb-lit front end (for the letter and color background) and, of course, red marker lights at the end. In addition, we are considering molding a reasonable interior, so that interior lighting can be provided.
I guess side doors that open and close in a plastic model is asking a bit much (esp. four sets per side). Thin plastic sheeting for windows?
Suggestions for materials, anyone? Any special concerns I need to have for the power car? "Doable" electrical hookups to light the trailers?
Also, does anyone have photos of an R-68 undercarriage, or know where I can get a hold of them?
power truck--buy a Bachmann GE 44 tonner--close wheelbase/wheel diameter. spend some bucks on the Images Replicas Irt stuff(I have no connection, but I like their kits)
as for the trailers the IR stuff may not be perfect, but its close.
lighting--use AAA nicads--hide them on the underbody.
good luck
Thanks Dave. Excellent suggestions.
My friend and I had considered doing an IRT car, but he pointed out that modelling a 75' car would be easier with existing stock than a 55' car or 60' car.
Why use a freight car truck? The normal HO streamline truck such as Athearn's which are quite reasonable have a longer wheelbase but the appearance is much more in keeping with most trucks under the NYCT postwar equipment. Would look better than a freight car truck.
For lighting there are lighting kits available for matching this truck [also Athearn] and the trucks already come with steel wheels on one side for power pickup.
For markers, etc I don't know if any LED's on the market are small enough..I'd guess you could find some. If you live in New York or nearby maybe some of the train hobby shops could advise you; if not try buying a Walther's catalog for thousands of items available for railroad modelling.
I wish I could help you on body construction. I've built from scratch probably 100 transit cars in my time but all have been the basic, boxy looking vintage cars. I tried a curved side set of Chicago stuff but never finished them as I wasn't happy with the way they looked.
Good luck, it's rewarding to see finished products that nobody else has...like S gage IRT, Manhattan el..etc , cars. [That I built]
Thank you, kind sir. It hadn't occurred to me to get a separate truck (probably because I was focusing on the convenience of using a locomotive undercarriage and figured I'd worry about the trailers later).
LED's are a good idea. And thanks for mentioning the Walthers' catalogue.
Building curved bodies is a challenge, but if we can get a mold done right once, then injecting molten plastic and allowing it to set can be done reliably over and over.
O-gauge would have been easier to work with, but tougher to display in small spaces. N gauge, to me, isn't worth the trouble.
Again, thank you for your thoughtful, and helpful post!
Glad to be of help. I built my models in S because I had [have] American Flyer, got by making almost evrything myself,; trust me, HO is the way to go...there are mountains of HO compatible items out there and it's the smallest size in my book that's got any body to it.
I did come up with another thought. I bought..only one was available so nothing much I can do with it..an S gage Chicago 6000 from a guy who home-built and marketed them, likewise I've heard that the R1-9, AB etc that were once made in HO were some epoxy or resin casting? Perhaps easier to work than plastic. I don't know but you might investigate. Maybe you can even make a run of these things for sale. Couldn't you almost use the same bodies for R44-46-68-68a perhaps with a few detail changes? Best wishes..ed
You're right again.
We chose the R-68 so as not to worry about A and B cars and married pairs, but truthfully, the front end of an R-46 is very close to an R-68 (just change the headlight and marker lights to a horizontal, rather than vertical arrangement. And the smooth end (no cab) should be easy to do.
I've heard that the R1-9, AB etc that were once made in HO were some epoxy or resin casting
Yes ... MTS Imports was making a resin R-9 and selling it with a brass underbody. While still expensive, it came no where close to what an all-brass model would be.
--Mark
If you decide to go forward with molding plastic carbodies for R-68 carbodies go with styrene if you have a friend who molds plastic Resin/epoxy plastic is used to avoid the hassle of buying an injection molding machine which your friend already has. the styrene plastic itself is a much cheaper material than epoxy and is MUCH EASIER to cement and work with. Tooling (mold) costs would be the same but there is the killer -- unless your friend has a precision milling machine and is willing to produce the molds (1 pair for each side if the sides are diffrent, 1 pair for the roof, and 1 Pair for each end if the ends are different. and all this is just for the carbody and the material for the molds alone (O-1 tool steel) isn't cheap, either. However, I may be wrong in all this but the guys in our local hobby shop (Central Hobby Supply in Syracuse) have produced styrene kits for wooden cabooses (a lot more detail work than a modern subway car) and wagon top boxcars so I'll ask them how doable this is. I fear however that brass would be a lot cheaper but if you get a set of molds sunk, you are in the model subway car business. I'll let you know
Thank you very much. I am forwarding your comments to my modelling partner (in Denver, I'm going to see him in a week).
Hey, be sure to check out our light rail line when you're here.
Thanks. I will.
two words:
GO with HO
Almost every model being released of a modern prototype is coming out in HO. Look at Bachmann's Acela or Athearn's F59PHI. They are beautiful models (click here for a ccol picture of my friend Chris's F59PHI next to its real-life counterpart). Anyone who is going to seriously buy a model hippo for anything other than running around on a club layout and "looking cool" will be someone who is modeling modern urban railroading.
Don't think only NYC people will buy this. Modelers make do with what they can. I know people who have painted IHC Boeing-Vertol light rail vehicles in Portland's MAX scheme because no model exists of the Bombardier or Siemens LRVs. I have also seen Walthers DC Metro cars painted for MARTA. Likewise, market a convincing-looking subway car and people are going to buy the undecorated version and paint it to whatever they feel like, however unprototypical that may be. And most of those modelers are in HO.
Another suggestion:
LIVE THIRD RAIL
How much harder would it be to put operating shoes on the model? Pretty much every decent electric locomotive these days has a little switch so it can draw current from either the track or the overhead. You could do the same with the R68...people could flick a switch on the underside (or inside) of the model and choose to have two-rail power or live third rail. I know when I get a permanent layout (out of college) I'm going to install live third rail on mine.
GO with HO
Now that Times Square has been cleaned up, where do you expect to achieve this?
Pigs, BE NICE :^)
You forget, Eugenius E. Train, that I go to school in Lakewood, Washington. We're conveniently situated between the gang capital of the northwest (Tacoma) and a large Air Force and Military Base (Fort Lewis and McChord). As a result, Lakewood has more adult entertainment businesses per capita than any other city in Washington, Oregon, and Idaho. And, with a bunch of strip clubs and adult bookstores on one road (Pacific HWY SW) there is no shortage of HOs. Indeed, "Pacific Railway Hobbies" is located near the same district, and I've bought much of my "rolling stock" there.
Live third rail has actually been around for years. Back in the '30s, perhaps before, many of the pioneering O scale modelers converted Lionel and other tinplate engines to something approximating scale, using two rail track and an adjacent third rail. The late John Allen, one of the greatest modelers of all time, even operated his layout this way. It always struck me as somewhat funny to see a steam locomotive with third rail shoes on either side, but that's the way it was done!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Spunky shouldlook at old model RR Mags from the '40s, lots of outside third rail stuff there, along with cardboard freight car kits and locos with boilers sand cast of solid brass. Heck, when I was a kid in the '70s, a friend gave me a bunch of those kits, unassembled They actually were more fun than shaking an Athearn box and having the thing fly together.
You want fun? Try converting the couplers on ready-to-run freight cars (IHC, Model Power, Bachmann) to Kadee #5 standards.
I'll stick with "O", thank you.
O is great if you make $200,000 a year and can build a huge barn adjacent to your suburban long island home to house your layout, but most of the rest of us need something that will look good with less than 60"-radius curves. I personally plan on having two layouts (both would fit together into the basement of a small bungalow in an older section of a west coast city - 1890s to 1930s)...one in N scale with freight operations and one in HO for traction. Traction layout would have light rail, streetcar, subway and even monorail operations (some of this would require scratchbuilding). It would also have a two-track loop of track to run modern trains on like the Talgos and the Acelas...
Here's a couple of rapid transit model club sites to check out:
NYC Subway Modeling
and NYC Rapid Transit Modeling
Mr t
Thank you very much!
While you're casting plastic, I'd love for someone to make HO cast plastic subway signal heads...
Your subject line led me to believe I had another job opportunity :(
Sorry. Maybe some photographers on the site got the same impression!
For 'o' scale there used to be plastic car sections which you could glue together and create an interuban car or city car,the windows were in diffrent styles,even the ends were available,and the cost was down to earth,Traction and models was offering them,even roof designs were available,why could'nt this be available again....i'm sure someone has the molds to continue this stuff,'o' scale traction can be very scenic and not take up a whole lot of space,Bob Hagge had a real nice around the wall layout which could be built in the same room a ho layout can be built,execpt he had extensions added to make his system larger,around the wall traction can have lots of character.prices are way,way overboard,not just for 'o' scale but for all scales.
While we wait to see if the MBTA Blue Line gets new cars and an extension (I hope so), here's a question:
Does anyone know how it happened that the Blue Line trains must switch from third rail to overhead catenary? Why was it designed that way - was it because there were RR crossings on the line at one time or a non-enclosed ROW and MBTA didn't want third rail power?
The blue line used to be a streetcar line from bowdoin to maverick(I think). the MBTA uses short trains for trains to enter the tunnel at airport the train changes fom third rail to overhead collection for more info go to the main page then click on american transit systems the click on boston then click on the blue line!
Thank you kindly.
The Blue was built on a ROW of the Boston, Revere Beach and Lynn, a three foot gauge with trolley overhead, from the Airport area to Wonderland in the 50's. The locals were familiar with this type of operation and the T was not entirely comfortable with third rail heaters along the ocean front. The logical move was to overhead. Now, however, third rail heaters have been proven along the Red Line and it is only a matter of time before the Blue is all third rail. BTW, the changeover between third rail and overhead is at Maverick, even though the third rail is energized to Airport.
There was no road crossings.
The new cars are out to bid two ways, as articulated and as married pairs a little longer than the current cars. There are enough cars to provide 6 car trains on a 4 minute headway on the existing Blue Line. The leaning is toward married pairs just long enough to do away with the Bowdoin Loop. Six cars won't fit there anyway.
Thank you.
I have watched (as of 1999, anyway) Blue Line trains extending or retracting their pantographs at Airport station.
It was moved backed to Maverick when the new Airport station construction began due to concerns about workmen around the 3rd rail. After a couple of overhead problems, the 3rd rail was energized to airport and flagmen at the site keep an extra watch on the contractors.
Thanks for the info
From what I understand the long term plan is to buid a rail link with the orange line so that there can be a one seat ride to the airport from more places
You may be thinking of a long term plan for a new line that will circle the city and connect to the Airport. The initial stage of this is the three CT bus routes.
There is no plan to connect the Orange to the Blue. There is a plan to extend the Blue through Revere, Lynn, Swampscott to Salem. There is a meeting on this Feb 26 at the Peabody City Hall to discuss some of the options and start procuring Federal money.
Ok, here's a little fictional piece I just threw together. It sorta combines my love of myths/fantasy with railfanning with a good dash of humour thrown in to boot. I'm not really trying to say anything or make any points except maybe that NS is full of dodgy gits and Conrail rules, but that is of secondary importance to the story. I hope you decide to read it and any comments would be welcome. I'm assuming I didn't get all of the railroad stuff exactly right. Anywho sit back and enjoy.
*********************************************************************
Engineer Robert Mack notched up the throttle to Run-8 as he cleared the curve at the east end of the Shocks Bridge over the Susquehanna River. The light engines quickly reached the linespeed of 50mph and Engineer Mack again reigned in his steeds to avoid speeding. He yawned. It was just another pointless day working on the railroad.
Robert had been a full fledged engineer for almost 24 years and 22 of those had been spent working for Conrail, the majour carrier in the Northeast that had resulted from a score of previous bankruptcies. What had started as a government bailout had evolved into a first rate company. It was well run, well managed and good to its employees. Then, just as it began to show some real promise the shareholders got greedy and sold out. What had once been a large and efficient system was split between two rival firms, CSX and Norfolk Southern. Almost overnight Robert had found himself working for a new employer.
It soon became evident to Robert that NS couldn't tell its ass from a hole in the ground. The Southern coal hauler wasn't equipped to handle operations in the busy, industrial North. Things quickly ground to a halt and the shit piled up so high you needed to stand on the cab roof to get above it. After almost a year and a half they had cleared up most of the problems, snags, snafu's and glitches, but the system wasn't anywhere close to its former glory.
Robert was tempted to retire, but his seniority and the prospect of lush retirement benefits had compelled him to stay on, but he wasn't going down without a fight. He was always the first one with a snide remark or joke about the new operator. He posted humourous printouts on bulletin boards and had a slew of anti-NS t-shirts and coffee mugs. The local employees and managers loved his antics and would have joined in had they not had the corporate ladder to climb. Robert was already near the top of the ladder so it didn't matter anymore.
To him, everything from the days of Conrail (now Gonrail) was good and anything new from NS was bad. Nevertheless he always toed the line and never did anything that could get him disciplined. The imported NS management had begun to take notice of his actions and sent him letters and memos asking him to rectify his behavior. For all Engineer Mack cared they could suck his dick. He knew the rules and they were going to have a tough time getting rid of him.
Robert disliked NS so much that he was paying the hostler at the Harrisburg engine house a little gratuity to make sure an old Conrail painted locomotive was always in the lead of his consist. He couldn't stand those black NS engines with that stupid rearing horse painted on the sides and front. The black wasn't even a proper black; it looked more like manure brown.
"The Thoroughbred of Transportation my ass, more like the donkey of transportation." Robert said aloud to nobody in particular, mocking the corporate motto then looking down at his T-shirt that read the same. Robert sighed. He would normally have a conductor or assistant engineer to talk and joke with, but a crew shortage at the Harrisburg Terminal had meant he'd have to run alone to Perryville, MD where he'd pick up his running mate. Amtrak wouldn't even allow such an unsafe practice as one-person operation on its rails, but because this was only a lite engine move federal regulations let NS get away with a one-man crew on their territory.
In fact this whole run was because of a fuck up. Robert's normal assignment was running priority intermodal trains from the new Rutherford yard to a hand off at Altoona, PA and then back again. However, today the trainmaster came in begging him to run some light engines south to Harrington, DE. He was the only one available who was qualified on the route and they needed those engines badly. There had been a mistake and now there was no power in Harrington to pull several hundred empty grain hoppers back to Ohio. The hoppers were clogging the yard so that they couldn't fit in the full grain train that was now waiting in Wilmington, DE. The grain was for the massive poultry farms on the Delmarva Peninsula and if they couldn't deliver there was going to be damages and lawsuits.
At this point Robert could have cared less if NS got sued, but when the trainmaster offered double time pay he couldn't refuse. In reality Robert felt like he had hit the jackpot. He was getting double pay to run lite engines (which even a baby could handle), down the Port Road Line, one of his most favourite routes. The Port Road ran along the banks of the Susquehanna River from Columbia, PA to Perryville, MD where it ran into Amtrak's Northeast Corridor. It was a picturesque route that ran between sheer cliffs on one side and a 4000-foot wide lake on the other.* It was an engineering marvel built by the Pennsylvania Railroad with slide fences, rock bore tunnels and shoo flies that carried flood prone creeks over the tracks. The line was so remote that access to most places was only possible by boat.
Robert whistled for a grade crossing as he sped through Columbia, PA and onto the Port Road, each of his two 3000hp SD40-2's barely working up a sweat. He saw a railfan standing near the old COLA tower getting ready to take a picture. Robert waved and gave a toot on the horn. He liked the train buffs as they were the only ones who would share in is NS bashing. Whenever he was stopped do to NS mishandling he would talk to them and give cab tours. NS had been trying to crack down on the buffs, which management saw merely as trespassing vandals. They wanted crews to report them to the NS police, but Robert saw it as a hobby like fishing or hiking and he gave them a free hand.
Because of Amtrak restrictions trains rarely used the Port Road during daylight hours, but this time the sky was blue, the sun was shining and Engineer Mack was enjoying some impressive scenery. It was late April and the landscape had turned from a muddy brown to a vibrant green. He had the whole line to himself and was getting clear signals all the way.
::Conrail...Safe Harbor, Pennsylvania...No Defects...Total Axle Count one-two...over::
Robert smiled as the automatic defect detector came on over the radio. The reassuring Conrail voice had not yet been defiled by the NS maintenance gangs. At a lively 35mph clip he rolled past the Safe Harbor Dam, the little village of McCall's Ferry and finally the end of the controlled siding at CP-Midway. After Midway there was about 7 miles of pure wilderness excluding the small village of Peach Bottom. It was Robert's favourite part of the line as it contained the 3 tunnels and the best views over the river.
Robert put his feet up on the control stand started to relax, just soaking up the sunny day. Then just before he exited the Williams Tunnel the calm in the cab was shattered by the piercing sound of an air whistle. Robert's cab signal had gone from Clear, all the down to Restricting. He threw the train into emergency, acknowledged the whistle and got to his feet. The line was prone to rockslides and washouts and Robert wanted to be ready to jump if necessary. What greeted Robert next was not a large rock or a broken rail, but rather pair of big red eyes and they weren't on a colourized position light signal.
There, sitting astride the tracks was a large red and gold dragon, its metallic scales shunting the track circuit. For a minute he thought he might collide with the dreadful beast, but lite engines don't have much mass and they came to a rest with some 15 feet to spare.
Robert franticly grabbed for the radio mike. He pressed the dispatcher call button and started to yell. "This is NS train 962A calling the Port Road Dispatch over!"
"NS Port Road," replied the dispatcher calmly, "Go ahead 962A."
"YOU'VE GOT TO HELP ME! THERE'S A FUCKING DRAGON ON THE TRACKS!"
"Could you say that again, I didn't quite ::scccht::"
"THERE'S A REAL LIVE DRAGON ON THE TRACKS! I'm not kidding this is real! Oh please, you gotta send help right now!"
"::buzz:: ant ::ssscht:: you ::crackle:: ing up ::scchhhhhh::"
"Hello? Hello! HELLO! Oh god please no! Somebody? Anybody? ANSWER ME!"
Then Robert heard a booming voice that shook the windows and rattled the doors. "Alright human, enough playing with the radio. Nobody can hear you and nobody is coming to help. No be a good little mammal and come out here where I can talk to you."
Robert cursed the fact that employees were not permitted to carry firearms. Unable to form words Robert shook his head "no" and balled up on the floor of the cam hoping this would all go away.
"Listen human, if you won't come out on your own, I'll rip that little tin box apart and remove you forcibly. I'm giving you 30 seconds to get out here."
Gathering all the courage he had Robert grabbed a crowbar, opened the door and climbed down onto the ground. I looked around for a place to run and hide, but his only options were a cliff on one side and a large body of water on the other. Not knowing what else to do he pointed the crow bar in the general direction of the dragon and trembled.
"Are you the human know as," the dragon looked at inside of his arm, "Engineer Robert Mack?"
Robert still couldn't form words and just stood there.
"ANSWER ME HUMAN!" The dragon roared.
Robert nodded.
"Good, for a minute I thought I had the wrong person. Now hold still, this will only take a minute." The dragon began to draw a complex pattern in the air with a talon. As the talon moved it left a glowing line hovering in midair. Soon the dragon stopped, inspected his work and upon being satisfied with it said a few unpronounceable words.
The pattern exploded in a flash of light. Robert was confused. He had expected an attack, but now the dragon was just sitting there grinning. Suddenly Robert began to feel very strange. There was an odd tingling throughout his body like he had come in contact with a large electric current. Suddenly the tingle turned into an itch, which spread over every square inch of his body.
Then something felt wrong with his hands. He looked down and saw his fingers getting shorter and his hands puffing out to look like small clubs. Unable to grasp, the crowbar fell clattering on the ballast. Robert couldn't believe his eyes. What had been his hands were now getting harder and turning into...hooves! Robert heard 2 pops as his feet underwent the same change and caused his work boots to explode. The changes didn't stop at his extremities; black fur covered everything that had once been pink skin.
"What are you doing to me?" Robert yelled.
He heard a loud crack as his backbone and pelvis reshaped themselves, forcing him over onto all fours. He felt his mid section expand like a balloon. His belt popped and his pants ripped open. His prized "Donkey of Transportation" T-shirt was reduced the shreds. He felt his neck growing longer and his full head of hair shift back into a mane.
"Oh God no! Please domp mhu mus maa."
Human words no longer fit in Robert's mouth. His depth perception faded as his eyes moved to the size of his head and his nose and mouth moved out into a horse's muzzle.
Now, in front of the dragon where Robert had been, stood a beautiful black Thoroughbred stallion. Robert felt his concerns with things like signal rules, hours of service and hazardous materials drain away. His new priorities were to eat and move. He glanced down at the weeds along the right of way and felt that this was a good place to start. There was a large creature near by, but something kept telling him that it was not a threat and to ignore everything except eating and moving. He didn't even hear the other train back in from the north.
There were footsteps. "Well Bob, it looks like you've had a busy day."
Upon hearing its name the human mind came back. Bob looked up at a blur that seemed to resemble the regional director. He knew he should be angry at this blur, but he wasn't exactly sure why.
"Well I'm sorry he had to do this Bob, but you were causing too much of a dip in employee morale. We couldn't fire you so the board decided that the best course of action would be to move your into a position where you would increase morale instead of," the official picked up the remnants of his T-Shirt, "sapping it."
There was a large bang behind as the ramp on the last car of the train hit the ground.
"Anyway from now on you're going to be the star of our special Employee Morale train. We felt the former star had learned his lesson and that brought up the need for a replacement. You name jumped to the top of the list."
A rope was slid around Robert's neck and he was led up the ramp into the specially outfitted rail car. It was the size of your typical 50' boxcar, but the superstructure consisted of thick Plexiglas panels bolted to a skeletal frame. The outside was adorned with NS horse logos. The inside was designed for the real thing.
The director turned to the dragon, who was by the lake trying to spear fish with his claws. "Well I must congratulate you on another job well done. I know that your working on salary, but I felt you deserve a little bonus for these special assignments."
"Oh, you really shouldn't have. After all your company has done for me I feel I am in your debt."
In the early 1400's the dragon decided to take his hoard and retire in the yet undiscovered North American continent in an effort to avoid the hustle and bustle of Europe. However the Native Americans took a disliking to his continental attitude. Having no tolerance for Eurotrash, several tribes in what is now West Virginia banded together and using surprisingly effective folk magic cursed the dragon's hoard causing him to fall into a deep sleep when he came back to lay on it. He would have slept there forever had it not been for a new tunnel project undertaken by none other than the Norfolk Southern Corporation.
"We hardly call rescuing an individual and respecting his property (i.e. "incredibly large hoard") something special. You are not our debtor, but our valued employee and we treat our employees well." And he handed the dragon a small sack.
This remark brought an indignant whinny from the special horse car where Robert was now angrily stamping around and snorting.
"Oh do be quiet Robert. You don't have a family, we'll cover for your friends and we'll maintain your property. The sooner you relax, the better you behave and the more you work with us the sooner this will all be over. Once we feel you have learned your lesson you'll get you old body and old job back. Besides, you're getting paid 24/7 as our new morale officer. Can you imagine how much overtime that will add up to?"
The stallion stopped stamping for a moment to ponder the last statement.
"It should be a pretty tidy amount even after we subtract room, board, vet bills and transportation."
The horse started stamping and snorting again.
"So long Bob! Yelled the director as he walked up and boarded the office car. "Have fun in "training" down on the farm."
The lite engines Bob had been driving were hooked on the front of the Morale train, itself having been push to the scene by another locomotive.
Meanwhile the dragon set his bonus down and began to concentrate. His powerful wings began to wither and finally flopped down completely limp as the bones dissolved. The skin and membranes slowly sucked into his back as he rapidly got smaller. His once hard scales turned to soft putty and flowed together to form soft, weak flesh. The long tail telescoped into his rear, as did the long neck into his torso. There was some muffled cracking as his muzzle and jar reformed into a human mouth and his razor sharp fangs melted into human teeth. His talons flattened into pathetic human nails and finally his horns lost their rigidity and were absorbed into his skull like snakes. The other railroad personnel didn't pay him and mind. It was all in a days work for the Special Operations Division.
All that was left of the dragon was a tall, muscular, well-built human male. The dragon didn't like to take on human form, but he found t necessary in found it necessary in today's climate of declining values. He retrieved the clothes he had left earlier behind a bush and quickly put them on. The dragon then picked up his bonus and peeked inside. The dragon couldn't help but let out a little yip as he gazed upon the cash, gold chains and a few loose diamonds and pearls. Carefully cradling his prize he uncovered his boat from its hiding place and took off down river to where his ride would be waiting. They needed him for a salvage operation in Lynchburg, VA. A dragon's work is never done.
*******************************************************************
A lone railfan sat in his lawn chair on the Perryville MARC platform watching the afternoon parade of trains on the Northeast Corridor. He was puzzled as to the fate of train 962A, the lite engine move he had shot at COLA. He had raced down here in his car to catch it as it entered the NEC, but it had been over two hours and nothing had shown up. Earlier he had recorded some frantic call about a Dragon on the tracks. People are always joking around on the radio and he was pissed that the signal had faded before he could get the punch line. However, with 962A having apparently disappeared the railfan began to rethink his earlier assessment of the transmission. Anyway, joke or not, it would be solid gold when he posted the audio clip on his website.
Just then his scanner began receiving another transmission. "This is NS 046A calling Amtrak CETC 3, over"
"Amtrak CETC 3, go ahead."
"Yeah, we were wondering if we could get on the NEC at PERRY, head north to DAVIS and onto the Delmarva Secondary?"
"I can fit you in right now if you hurry."
"We'll be there in about 2 minutes."
"Ok, sounds good. You've got a clear signal and I'm going to put you on the #2 track. Amtrak CETC 3 out."
"Great, NS 046A out."
"Train 046A? That was the symbol for the Employee Morale train. That finished up its tour about a month ago and no new tours had been scheduled," Though the young man.
This was all very weird, but the railfan thanked god for his good fortune and grabbed his camera. As the Morale train rounded the north leg of the wye he saw it was powered by the two SD-40's he had seen on the engine move. Now it all made sense. The lite engines were probably part of a rescue train when the previous Morale train engine had died. He took several photos of the engines, the office car on the rear and the special horse car complete with the famous NS black stallion.
"Wow, the message board is never going to believe this. I can't wait to get this film developed. Nice sunny day too. These photos should turn out great," he said to himself.
The railfan would have stayed longer, maybe explored PERRY tower a bit, had he not gotten the feeling that someone was watching him. The station building was now a restaurant serving fast food to commuters and in the parking lot was a white NS company sedan. It was the same sedan that had pulled up and yelled at him for taking pictures at COLA. He was on Amtrak property now, but he knew that fact would stop them from being ass holes. It was probably best to call it a day. He packed up his stuff and walked back to his car. As the railfan passed by the NS sedan he mumbled under his breath.
"Stupid NS, ruining everything for everybody."
Despite its extremely low tone, the tall man on the passenger's side clearly heard this remark. The dragon put down the soft taco he had been munching, took a sip of his soda and opened the door intent on following the loudmouth human and teaching him a lesson. A hand from inside the car grabbed him and held him back.
"No! Employees only."
************************************************************************
Three months later the first quarter morale reports came out. The Harrisburg division had improved by 15 points. The new programme was working.
*The Susquehanna River has numerous hydroelectric dams on it. Therefore for most of its length the river is also a lake. However, because the river runs between two sets of rather high cliffs the lake is a lake in depth only.
(c)2001 Mike Brotzman
That was an outstanding little bit of fiction, suitable for direct publishing in any of the railroad or science-fiction mags!! You should maybe look into writing as a career or second job. BTW any special reason why you use the British spelling of several words, not that anyone minds or notices?! Write and post more of these, and good luck!!!! Regards, Thomas :)
Bravo!
avid
Of course, this may be deleted by our friendly Webmaster, as it is about a off-topic as it comes.
Do not say you were not warned.
Keep it up, and you just might find yourself banned from this board.
I'm really sick of people who consider railroad talk to be off topic.
Amtrak is OUR subway upstate ... and WE'VE got FOOD while we ride! :)
What the hell are you talking about?!
Read the little statement at the top of the message index. "Stick to rapid/rail transit issues only." It's an entertaining story, and certainly worth every minute I took to read it. It is a refreshing change from the 666th "So, what's up with the Manny B" thread. It is also way better than the 666 "new shit sucks old shit rules" threads scattered about. The heypaul and avid reader posts are in a similar style to the post you're referring to, and while they are annoying to some people they certainly aren't deleteable.
And not all off-topic posts (not that this was off topic) are bad, the only ones I find truly annoying are the political and flammatory ones (ie: Salaam vs everyone) , since they often grow incredibly large and end up in incoherent babble.
There have only been 2 people ever to be banned from here, Subway_Crash_Means_Money_for_NY_Transit for being cold and heartless about passenger deaths and such (and cheering them on), and follo for being the most annoying sonofabitch ever to grace this board. It takes practically a crime against humanity to get banned from here.
Exactly, I fully agree Henry!
By the way, what's the deal with the Manhattan Bridge flip-flop and is it true that the redbirds will be used for BMT service considering the fact that the R142's really suck? It's probably because of those damn politicians eating salaami sandwiches causing all this.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH! Wait, it's 3 AM. It's only a dream. That's it, a dream.
at about 1500 the Coney Island bound F train I was riding home from school was terminated at Church avenue. It was said that there was no Coney ISland Bound service. I walked to my station from Church ave to Ditmas where I live and there were trains layed up at the station. what was initeresting the lights were on properly and the trains goin to manhattan although not stopping at any station WERE coming down, we were given bus stubs but no shuttle buses were actually provided. anyone have the story behind this? Thanks in advance
I tried a new method from Woodhaven Blvd to Lawrence St or Jay St. Took the G to Roosevelt to the E to 42nd to the C to Jay. Everything was good and going until I got on the C. IT WAS PACKED! Almost every stop the platforms were loaded and people were running from the front of the platform to the "8" sign so they can get on. At Canal, the doors reopened and closed at least 8 times, and teens/college students were pushing each other on and off the train. This was around 3PM. They need to make the C 10 cars on weekdays. It almost meets this requirement for weekends, as you can easily see a packed C all the time on weekends. The fact that it is the only Fulton St local on the rush should be considered.
Everytime I've been on a C it's packed. It's the train to avoid. If I want 8th ave local I take the E. The E runs more often too.
The C line is one of worst in the system. They always get the "short" end of the stick.
While waiting at 42nd for my downtown A to the Rockaways, I often here announcements,"the "C" is running Short." Iguess this is the closest the TA will come to solving this problem.
If only two or three sets of ten cars at peak time. Maybe that would give a little relief?
The horrifing thought of a diverse set might be too radical for those on the side of Car ethnic purity.
avid
The R-143s arrival is supposed to allow for increased service on the Queens Blvd. line, and it might free up enough cars to add a few to the C, but I doubt it. The line probably won't get any additions cars until the R-38/40 replacements arrive and that's if they decide to let a few of the Slants play around on the system for a couple of more years than scheduled.
Do you think a resolution would be to run the E out to Fulton once more, and let the C end at WTC?
It would aid the portion of the "C" from 50th St.and below.
Is there enought cars to serve the additional milage?
avid
Well, they seemed to be able to handle the service last year during the GO which caused the "C" train to be eliminated entirely while the "E" train took over the portion of the "C" from 50th Street and south and the "B" train took over the "C" from 59th Street and north.
If we had unlimited cars, the perfect service plan:
Middays + Weekends, exactly as it is now.
Rush Hour changes:
C - CPW/8 av Local, to WTC.
E - 8 av Express, Fulton st local, to Euclid.
S - Rockaway Blvd to Rockaway Park.
To be adventurous, run the E all the way to Rock Pk and put the shuttles away, or to Lefferts and send all As to the Rockaways (dodge Liberty ave riders' complaints).
Remember, this is only for rush hour and assuming unlimited cars.
Running the A and E thru Cranberry St. at current capacity is not feasible. Didn't anyone ride the E when it was extended to Brooklyn last year? SLOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWW .........
The C is adequate. Nuff said.
If we're assuming unlimited cars, then why ignore the Liberty Ave. riders?
A-8th Ave. Exp.-Fulton Exp. to Far Rockaway
E-QB Exp.-8th. Ave. Local-Fulton St. Local to Rock. Park
C-8th Ave. Local-Fulton St. Local to Ozone Park.
While we're at it, extend the R to 179, F Hillside Exp., send the Q through 63rd as the Brighton/Broadway/QB express.
Also, build the entire IND Second System. Especially the extension of the Astoria line.
I'm going to go take my meds now.
I know. Having unlimited cars certainly would spruce things up. Just for the heck of it, I'll dream up a route layout with the entire IND second system as well as the existing track to correlate. I would encourage others also to create such a layout.
No. The E ran out to Euclid last year. The trains were mostly empty and the logjam caused at Canal St. was unacceptable. The C is adequate for Fulton St. local service.
Additional cars are not availiable.
The A has no R-44s to spare???
No.
MTA should rebuld the R-40S's,R40M's,and R-42's.
The C line should used a 10 car train. Or 6 75 Foot subway cars.
Sometimes I saw a 4 Car C Train. this was when before the C line went to brooklyn on weekends.
Dominick Bermudez.
The introduction of 6 75ft. cars would be a reduction from the current 480ft consit of 8 60ft cars. The 6 75ft cars would be 450ft.
I fear the reduction by 30ft, 1/2 a car may have an adverse effect.
Maybe 7 75ft cars.
Where would these cars come from?
avid
Here's where I drag out my soap box.
We Host a party with lots and lots of licker!
We invite the Suits from MTA and SIRT.
Take photos of them in compromising positions.
Convince them to 1) shift 60 M-1 cars ready for the scrapers torch to S.I.
2) Shift the S.I. R/44s to the "B" division A line.
3) Shift 80 R/38s from A service {if they have that many} to "C" scrvice.
avid
The SIRT R44's have been altered for operaration there. They'd need to be reconfigured for subway service. Not worth it for those lemons. Might as well wait for the R143's.
Yet another example of the adverse effects upon SubTalkers of impossible questions.
Dan
I've taken the C once and it was fine. No overcrowding, no problems.
when?
Crowded C trains are a rarity. Usually when there is a delay in A service.
Part of the C's problem is the fact that each signal tower is controlled by a line superintendent; thus, the staff at each tower is loyal to the controlling superintendent's line, at the expense of whatever else also passes through.
As a result, any line (such as the C) whose superintendent doesn't control any towers always gets second-class status.
Almost all towers along the C line (207 St Master, 59 St Master, 42-8, 30-8*, Canal St, Chambers St*, Jay St, Hoyt St, Lafayette St*, Utica Av*, Broadway-ENY and Euclid Av) are under the auspices of the District 4 General Superintendent which oversees the A,C,J,L,M,Z lines. All Line Superintendents answer to the District General Superintendent. (The only tower not under Dist.4 is West 4 St).
*-part time tower
[Almost all towers along the C...are under the auspices of the District 4 General Superintendent.... All Line Superintendents answer to the District General Superintendent.]
Yes, but the towers (and any train dispatchers, etc. staffing them) answer DIRECTLY to the Line Superintendents, not the District Generals. Again, this means that the tower staff must remain loyal only to the line whose superintendent directly supervises (and can discipline) them.
Yeah, but if they don't move the C's then everything else gets screwed up in a chain reaction, and they hear about it anyway.
Maybe they could post huge yellow and black signs that say "THE C DOES NOT STOP AT THIS PART OF THE PLATFORM". That would probably create more confusion than it solves.
zman, do you know of a list of the manned towers on the system?
When Chambers is not manned, is it controlled from Canal?
Why whould you need someone at 30th/8th?
thanks,
Dave
Chambers St. IND has 2 towers. The one at the north end of the E line platform is on automatic, the dispatcher can run it manually. This machine controls the WTC terminal crossover. The one at the north end of the A/C is manned in the rush only and is used for the spur track just north of the station. If needed other times, a tower operator has to come from W4th or Canal. Canal controls itself. 30th/8th is manned during during the rush.............Don't forget these are all small towers and were put in when the IND was built and labor was cheap. Now these small towers hinder operational flexibility when needed if a man is not in the tower when needed.
So the T/O's have to punch to leave WTC?
No, when the dispatcher gives the starting lights, the lineup comes in.
Can you post the list of towers for the 6th ave Line(B,D,F,Q). Do you also have a list for Eastern Division and Brooklyn BMT
I don't have a "list", but I can rattle them off from my memory for ya:
B/D:
Stillwell Twr(B/D)
Bay Pkwy(B)
62 St(B)
8th Av Bklyn(B)
Murphy Twr(B)
D line is controlled only by DeKalb Twr and Stillwell Twr for the length of the Brighton Line.
DeKalb(B/D for the rest of the list)
W4
34-6
50-6
59 Master
207 Master
167 St Bx
Tremont Av
Bedford Pk Blvd
205 St
Q uses all D line towers up until 50-6. Tracks from 57-6 to 21 St is under control of the 21 St Twr and soon to be transferred to the new Queensboro Master Twr.
F:
Stillwell
Coney Island Yard Tower D (correct me on the letter if I'm wrong)
Kings Hwy
Church
4th Av
Bergen
Jay
Essex
W4
34-6
50-6
5th Av
Queens Plaza
Queensboro Master
Roosevelt
Continental
Kew Gardens
Archer Av
Parsons-Hillside
179 St
Eastern Division
J/M:
Bay Pkwy(M)
62 St
8th Av
Murphy Twr
DeKalb
City Hall
Essex
ENY Master
Archer Av(J)
L:
8th Av Twr
3rd Av
Bedford Av
Myrtle Av
ENY Master
Canarsie
If I missed anything I'll catch ya later. I've gotta go to bed as I have a 4 AM report tomorrow.
I've seen operators at Ditmars Ave on the Culver, was that a special case?
Which tower has control over 2nd ave/ Houston.
Its on the board at W4 and I've seen it on a picture of the Essex board...
Essex St. Tower controls Second Ave. interlocking.
So those are just "convenience" indicators at W4?
Ridership on the C doesn't require 600' trains, reguardless of your personal experience. I've ridden the C quite often, and it's never "crowded" to a point beyond capacity.
Well, I only did it once. Next time I do it, I'll let you all know how it was.
In the morning rush toward 168 Street around 7:30-8:00 in Brooklyn it's horrible. You can't even get on. And the A Train ain't gonna cut it neither.
Clinton cut a deal with City hall for the contested space for his new digs. it's official - Willy goes to Harlem. There goes the 'A' train.
> Clinton . . . goes to Harlem. There goes the 'A' train.
Remind me again how Clinton's location will affect the Subway? I know there was recently a thread regarding Clinton, but I haven't gotten a chance to look at it, and now I can't find it. Could someone please give me a message number or link to that thread so I can look at it? Thank you.
- Lyle Goldman
It was an off topic thread which was deleted by the webmaster
From a security standpoint, it's possible Clinton's daily arrivals and departures could cause the Secret Service to restrict access to 125th Street. Considering where the building is, that would main affect the 2/3 trains on Lennox and possibly Metro North at Park Ave.
That would also depend on from where he plans to travel from to Harlem -- Chappaqua? LaGuardia Airport (after flying up from Georgetown, not from London)? Some midtown Manhattan hotel? And on how much precautionary measures the Secret Service deems necessary for an ex-President. Remember, President Clinton used to get the N train shut down in Astoria when he came in from the airport to Manhattan. If that were to be an everyday occurance on 125th St., even though he's out of office, the joy at his arrival by local residents might dwindle rapidly, let alone the folks commuting into town on the Saw Mill River Parkway or across the Third Ave. Bridge.
>>> From a security standpoint, it's possible Clinton's daily arrivals and departures could cause the Secret Service to restrict access to 125th Street. <<<
That's pretty unlikely. Protecting a head of state gets that kind of routine. An ex-president is being protected from deranged individuals and in this case bitter republicans (some would say that's a subset of the universe of deranged individuals). No more motorcades and closed streets. The protection isn't any greater than that for a celebrity worried about stalkers, an extremely rich man, or a rap star.
Tom
Secret Service protection does go down after a president leaves office. But as anyone looking at this board earlier in the week can attest, this is a very controversal ex-president, who at the same time could have a wife running for his old position three or seven years from now, so the precautions might be a little higher than ususal.
Clinton staged an attack on Iraq a few months after he became president because Saddam reportedly put a hit out on Bush senior while he was visting Kuwait, so it isn't improbable that the Secret Service could pick up some sort of report of a threat against Clinton's life even though he's out of office and tighten up security (which might affect 126th Street residents the most, since Clinton apparently will use the building's back door to enter and leave each day after the novelty of glad-handing the locals on 125th Street wears off).
I have seen George H. travel in Maine and it adds up to a couple of inconspicuous SUVs. The idea is that the less attention an ex-president attracts, the easier the Secret Service's job is. Clinton's movements won't be public knowledge until they happen, and (unless he doesn't want to be) he will travel pretty much unnoticed.
I don't expect he will ride Metro-North for that reason.
Bill Clinton will never be inconspicuous. If nothing else, 'the man on the street' will constantly be stopping him to let him know that his fly is open.
How would George W. affect seashore visits in the summer?
Well, for one thing, the seashore will be mighty dirty, what with everyone throwing things at him! (:-)
In the long run, you're probably right, but just as Richard Nixon flew commercial one time on United during the Watergate crisis as a public relations move, I would expect to see Clinton and possibly the missus make at least one or two trips to the Harlem office via Metro North as part of the same type of PR gambit just about the time he officially moves into the office.
This will allow the maximum amount of press coverage of the trip down and the two block walk from Park Ave. to the building, with the images of the adoring crowds and the former president shaking hands with everyone, even though the Secret Service definitely will not be too keen on the idea.
What would really be interesting is if some reporter stays on the train to Grand Central and gets the comments of the other commuters about the media circus they've just witnessed.
Well, if those jerks in Congress succeed in impeaching Clinton, then you won't have to worry!
The way Clinton keeps shooting himself in the foot (i.e. the latest pardon defense in the Sunday Times - what the heck was that all about?) I think the Republicans are more likely to impeach Arlen Spector right now for stepping on the story than they are to go after the former president.
The thread you are referring to was deleted by the webmaster due to the fact that it contained some SERIOUS flamage that could have otherwise led to the "meltdown" of this message board.
BMTman
Does this mean that there will be increased service on the Harlem Line? What is the running time from Chappagua to 125th Street?
When were ads first placed in the Sunway?
Day One.
Take a look at the reports from the Historic American Engineering Record about the first subway. In the 5th Chapter about Architectural Design about halfway thru the report there is discussion about advertising in the subway. The author of that report cites a New York Globe article of October 29, 1904, bitching and moaning about the advertisements defacing the subway stations. (footnotes 84-87 at least, pertain to the advertising in the subway)
-Dave
The author of that report cites a New York Globe article of October 29, 1904, bitching and moaning about the advertisements defacing the subway stations.
Especially the ones featuring Dr. Zizmor ...
I haven't seen a Dr. Z ad in a long time... heh. Thanks for the laugh!
I'll be heading out to Arizona on 14 March to visit my grandchildren for a few days. They live in Kingman; I've already railfanned that immediate area, but I'm looking for suggestions as to what else to see, perhaps in the Prescott or Flagstaff area. (We'll be riding the train from Williams to the Grand Canyon and back on the 16th, and I'm saving the Verde Canyon ride for next year.) Requirements: must be interesting to me, preferably with a railroad connection, and must also be interesting to a train-crazy little boy who will turn 4 on the 20th.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Supposedly some of the coaches at Verde Canyon Railroad came from either Metro-North or Long Island Rail Road. (Of course, their FP-7 locos came from Alaska and the Geeps from Santa Fe.)
The Yuma Valley Railroad (southwest corner of Arizona) also bought one of the LIRR P-72 cars and is either in the process of, or completed, conversion of that car to a dining car.
Not sure if it is true, but someone mentioned to me that they thought they saw a trio of LIRR P-72 cars at Grand Canyon.
Not sure if it is true, but someone mentioned to me that they thought they saw a trio of LIRR P-72 cars at Grand Canyon.
Are those the "old" LIRR diesel coaches, the ones recently withdrawn from service? If so, I know exactly what those disgraceful wrecks can be used for at the Grand Canyon ....
For more Info on Arizona Freight, Passenger and Street Railroads
Go to Arizona Rail Passenger Web Site
www.psn.net/~azrail
The URL doesn't seem to be working... "unknown host" error... could you check it again? Thanks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know this was basically done as part of mayoral election year politicing, but the Daily News story today on Mark Green handing out leaflets about the upcoming Manny B releated route changes seems to be a classic case of Green's historical habit of grandstanding without offering any solution.
He wants hearings on the B/W route designation change and hits the MTA on the fact that the Grand Street station will be closed when the shift to the Broadway tracks is made. But other than asking for hearings, the story has no mention of what Green wants to do with those hearings -- make the MTA keep the B on the West End? Force the MTA to continue running trains from DeKalb via Sixth Ave? Shuttle buses between DeKalb and Grand? What?
Green comes across (as usual) as someone who knows how to work the media, but doesn't know what he wants to do after that, except that he wants to be mayor.
Daily News on Mark Green's leaflet attack on MTA
Yeah. I'm down with a lot of Green's politics, but here there is no solution to be had except to complain. The bridge's northern tracks will be closed, and there's nothing he or the MTA can do about it.
And the Grand St station will not be closed.
A hearing might have been in order for some details, like what letters they should use and stuff like that. But I think I personaly have heard enough of that here. ;>D
Andrew
Isn't it about time the position of Public Advocate is abolished.
No.
Just because the current occupant is a self-serving ass? Not. An ombudsman serves a useful purpose. Perhaps we should change the title of the office (again). How does Official Heckler grab you?
It's a useless position, the only reason it still exists is patronage, and because the the charter revision people in 1990 were too scared to make the Speaker of the Council the Acting Mayor if the mayor was to die (William Gaynor) or resign (Jimmy Walker).
So basically if the position is only to succeed the mayor, just have him elected with the mayor.
If the position had some sort of power to limit the mayor, then that would make sense, but it's useless.
I have a better solution. Why not just abolish Mark Green. We could accomplish that by giving him a going away present-----a one way ticket to Zanzibar.
What purpose would that serve?
He'd just screw with the people in Tanzania and some other bozo will replace him here.
I'm afraid you're right. I stand corrected. However, just think what would happen to New York City if that bozo got elected mayor.
We survived Dinkins (more or less); we'd survive Green, too.
We didn't survive dinkins, we overcame dinkins. We won't survive mark green - he'll never be elected.
Just like we will survive 4 years of Georgie W, and high price oil to pay his cronies back. In 2 years the demos will control Congress and do the same to him, as the Right Wingers did to Clinton. By the way how come the 3rd Bush Brother never was indited back in the 80s for Savings and Loan scandle. Was it because of Daddy.?
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who feels this way.
And he might be New York's next mayor. If so they are going to be recalling the glorious days of Rudy very quickly. What a yo yo that Green is. I see him on TV and just shake my head in disbelief. He complains about everything and offers no solutions. What kind of a public servant is that?
When the same Manny-B service pattern (with different letters) was implemented in the 1980s, no hearing was needed. Ditto now. End of story.
That makes sense to me and to the MTA, but not the current front-runner in the NYC mayoral polls. Likely he hasn't taken the time either to figure out that the exit at Canal and Center streets on the Q/W isn't all that far from Grand/Chrystie exit on the B/D/Q or that the DOT is the city agency controlling the bridge repairs, not the MTA. But hey, he got his name in the paper, and that's what really counts.
In their 2001 catalog, volume I, Lionel is offering LIRR MU Commuter Cars. The set of two cars includes a power car and a dummy, the train length would be 33 1/4 inches. The cars seem to be painted a deep maroon or burgundy color with black roofs. They appear to be gold lettered "Long Island", and are numbered 1163 & 1164. Each car has a single GG-1 type pantagraph mounted on its roof. The two car set will retail for $569.95. The exact same cars will be offered with Illinois Central markings in a different paint scheme.
Must be the year of the LIRR. K-Line 2001 catalog lists:
LIRR RDCs. 2 Pac is $499 (1 powered & 1 dummy0 also an unpowered RDC world's fair coach is offered.
LIRR F unit #'d 624 painted to look like an FL-9 ($300.00)
LIRR MP15 #104 painted to look like #104 which is usually parked outside Harold Tower. Comes with a LIRR tank car & caboose for $120.00
In the 2000 catalog was an RS-3 in LIRR colors and 6 heavyweightcoaches.
I havn't seen the K-Line catalog yet, but a friend tells me that they will be offering a special bay window caboose in LIRR colors, which will sell for $50.00, and carry the road number "69".
Bay Window #69 has been around for a while and has even shown up on eBay from time to time. The new caboose is a LIRR standard steel caboose #2.
okay, thanks for that clarification. As I'm not into the "O" scale stuff, basically the ONLY time I do see it is when something is listed at eBay when I search under "LIRR" (as I did sell off, and will be selling more, HO scale LIRR stuff there).
With regards to LIRR caboose #2, the N-5 car, in "N" scale (where I am nowadays...) Bowser came out with the N-5's recently. They painted tuscan version and the orange/black roof version, and the dummies numbered it...."3"!!! In their Ho versions, they did #1 in solid tuscan, correctly....but the #2 they did was orange with a black cupola -- not so correct.
Steve, if you're looking on eBay, 1/2 are listed as LIRR and the others are either Long Island RR or Long Island Railroad. I usually search on LIRR or Long Island
Thanks for the tip....yeah, I finally started doing it all three way a couple months ago.
And when I did LIST stuff for sale myself, I did it as "LIRR - Long Island R.R." to save people some trouble.
Trouble is at eBay, people list a lot of stuff in strange ways, as they realyl have NO idea what they are selling!!!
I am surprised to hear that LIRR #69 has been around for awhile.
I assumed that since it was pictured in K-Lines new catalog that it was a new item.
Do you know how long it has been out?
I've been seeing them for at least four or five months on eBay, as that's when I sold off a load of LIRR HO scale stuff and was surprised there was so much LIRR stuff in O scale showing up.
Karl, It's been over a year that I've been seeing that LIRR caboose. The funny thing is I've let several pass assuming that I had one. Apparently, I was wrong. I have LIRR #6119. Now I'm looking. Currently I'm also looking for:
Lionel 2421, 2422 & 2423
Lionel 6656 with the armour decal
Lionel 6656 without the decal
Lionel cop & hobo car.
I did score a great deal ona set of K-Line PRR interurbans (new).
I'll also be listing my spare set of Add-on D R-42s. 8 cars is just too long on my layout.
I am interested in one of those LIRR #69 cabooses too. I'll have to be careful that I am not bidding against you on eBay.
The Lionel 2421, 2422 and 2423 that you are looking for. Are you looking for the all silver version, or the silver version with the gray roofs?
"Are you looking for the all silver version, or the silver version with the gray roofs?"
Which is cheaper? Actually, I was unaware that there was a version with the silver roof until I checked Greenbergs guide. There is a negligable difference in price but I am looking for the grey roof version. They appear to be the ones that came with the Lionel 2150 WS set.
The all silver cars seem to be easier to find, but the gray roof version is more attractive, probably because of the contrasting colors. The really high priced ones are the original 2481, 2482 & 2483!
If you go to the big York train meet at the end of April, you should see both sets of cars available. I have a 2422 on my workbench right now that I have to rewire for a friend, but it is a rather dinged up car. The lighting in those cars always fascinated me. They use 2 GE-51 (a bayonet base 6-8 volt bulb) lightbulbs in series. There are pickup rollers on both trucks, and as a result the lights don't blink when they run over switches or uncoupling tracks. It was a nice touch. Lionel cheapened some of the later issue cars by using only one pickup roller.
Also for LIRR modelers in the new K-Line 2001 first edition Catalog on pages 18 & 19 are new 21" LIRR RDC cars.These cars are made to run on a 054 curve. Looks like K-Line is offering a 2 car set of a power and dummy car plus a extra dummy car which has the promotion of the 1964 World Fair. The power car looks like a RDC-1,the dummmy car a RDC-2 and the World fair dummmy car a RDC-3.We will need a large O gauge layout to operate these cars.
Also of interst to modelers in the Pennsylvania / South Jersey area are Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines Interurban set.These cars are 15" long and will run on a 031 curve. To the best of my knowledge,this is the first time any O gauge model has been offered in PRSL. For us in Pennsylvania & New Jersey. We can only hope more future PRSL equipment will be offered.
Have Fun
Ron J.
K-Line address: www.k-linetrains.com
Please clearify.
Are the PRSL of K-line manufacture? Are the LIRR and I.C. of Lionel
Manufacture?
Both have put out MUs . I'd like to Know more.
I haven't viewed the new cats yet. I have a weakness for Mus and Interurbans.
Thanks for the tempting Tidbits.
avid
The LIRR & IC are definately Lionel.
I don't know about the K-Line since I haven't seen a catalog.
Looks like the Age of Traction Action has arrived at a new dawn.
avid
The k-line catalog shows a two set of PRSL cars for $399.95 which runs on 031 track. The LIRR budd car set set sells for $499.95 and the extra budd car sells for $124.95. These cars run on 054 track. On page 30 k-line has a LIRR F-Unit in MTA colors for $299.95 plus a LIRR caboose for $49.95. both of these units run on 031 curves.Also k-line is making GG-1's and PRR congressional cars in 15" & 21" size.
Misc: The new MTH catalog shows no addional subway cars.
Have Fun
Ron J.
Sounds like Lionel is going to get a lot of mileage out of its MU sets.
Did the Lirr have pants?
avid
I thought the LIRR was all third rail or diesel, no overhead wire!
I concur. It seems if Lionel may have added the optional pantograph for one seat Babylon-Washington D. C. service.
avid
It is not uncommon for companies to sell models purporting to be something, but then getting it all wrong. It depends on where the model was designed. China, Eastern Europe? By somebody who has never seen what is being modelled?
In aircraft models this is common. I lost count of all the Testors and Revell models of jet fighters that came out clearly inaccurately done. (I'm not saying all of them are that way. There are some very nice, accurate models done by these companies too).
It just looks like Lionel is going for all the mileage it can out of the MU design. K-line has done the same with is "Interurban (heavyweigts). The big difference is K-line varies the offerings by using coache plus cobines or Dining cars. It'd be nice to see a "Heavyweight baggage body as a Box Motor.
Do I smell Kitbashing time? Excuse me While I cruise CTT and Ogauge for some sales.
avid
I'm not a kitbasher. I just think that when Revell advertises an F-14, I shouldn't find an F-16's canopy or an F-15's straight wing in the box (similar things have actually happened).
Similarly, if somebody offers an LIRR MU for sale, it should look like one, with authentic-style trucks and a third-rail shoe (even if it doesn't pick up third rail power.
Mercklin catenary-style train models include a real working pantograph and a catenary assembly that really does carry current in the overhead wire. Of course, Mercklin is rather pricey (if I recall correctly).
Märklin is absurdly priced, at least in N scale. But the Arnold/Rapido/Rivarossi GG-1 has pans that will work if you reconnect two wires and most brass will run from the wire as well. Ditto for the Kato streetcars, again by reconnecting a wire.
The problem is getting catenary or trolley wire that works well. The East Penn Traction Club (of which I am a member) has some N scale trolley wire modules but the wire is seriously out of scale - an unfortunate necessity for anything resembling reliable operation. N Scale magazine did a series of articles on constructing working catenary - IIRC, patterned after that used on the Virginian - that looked promising when I read them. One of these days I'm going to try building some of that for an extra-long Ntrak module and running my Niles interurban under it - modified with a pantograph, under the guise of a heritage trolley.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Catenary in "N" Scale is quite a challenge....I know people who have a heck of a time in HO.
The problem with "N" catenary and actually using it as the power source is the fact that "N" scale stuff is very light in weight, and the small size precludes having any spring strength on the pantographs.
I've only got one piece of equipment with pantographs on my "N" layout. It's a New Haven EP-5 rectifier. (Yes, body shells for them were made, but by the time you buy the pans, the end pilots and coupler mounts -- Micro-Trains FA-1 conversions -- and a decent drive, you're talking a $150.00 unit. But I HAD to have it!!!)
Fortunately, it isn't considered unprototypical to run with the pans down -- but then, I don't have third rail either!!
I remember those shells - Raintree was the manufacturer, IIRC. (I have ties to a hobby shop in Raleigh, North Carolina that I helped run for many years so I've just about got the Walthers catalogue memorized, and a few others that don't list there.) Not bad quality, either, and MicroScale obliged by producing decals.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Right, the shells were made by Raintree. The instructions that came with the shells suggested using a Con-Cor E-7 or E-8 drive. I found one, and had to do some MAJOR cutting and grinding (thank heaven for the Dremel and drill press.....) to make it fit under the shell. It ran like crap (typical Con-Cor). I did find a Kato E-8 drive that required one little corner to be ground off, and it now runs like a champ!!
The end pilots/coupler mounts are the Micro-Trains conversions, about $10.95 apiece.
The pantographs came from PE model Supply in Portland, Oregon, at 414.95 each -- but they are beautiful.
So figure $14.95 for the shell, 2x10.95 for the pilots, 2x14.95 for the pans, $4.00 for a decal sheet, and about $60 for the drive -- and you're looking at a little over $130.00 for a really great looking EP-5!!
Of course, the Micro-Scale decals worked great, on a paint job I did using SMP Accupaint (probably the nicest stuff to paint model railroad equipment with IF you can find it -- IF your dealer can get it. Supposedly the suppliers are real jerks....and ship only when the damn well feel like shipping.)
Good old Accupaint - we gave up trying to stock that stuff years ago. Back around '93 or '94 I went through our Walthers backorder list and cancelled most of it; we had Accupaint on there that had been originally ordered in 1979. (Of course, we had some Athearn that had been on the list that long too...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Forgot to include this in my last post... when Raintree brought that shell out the Kato drives weren't available, otherwise I suspect that they would have listed it. They did list the Atlas RS-3 drive as a candidate for one of their other shells that came out some time later.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The photo of the LIRR cars with pans -- was it a pre-production photo or an actual model?
Many times, manufacturers will take an existing product and do a quite repaint/relettering job just to give people some idea of what it will look like. Then when the real production models come out, they are just fine.
I don't dispute your point. I support it. The reality is Lionel seemes to be going all out to make this model in road names as is.
Their earlier model, the Lackawanna had two pans on one car and none on a trailer.
As I recall they offered the first set a coach and a combine, followed by the add-on set of two caoches. Its my beliefe the add-ons are pricie for unpowered cars. Ergo the Williams Heavyweights as add-ons. 4 for $179. they are 15.5 inches long. Close mathch but no pans.
Did I.C. have pans or a trolly pole?
K-Line was accurate in that respect. But their delivery was kind of spotty.
avid
No, LIRR didn't wear pants.
But they did wear shoes.....third rail shoes.
Pantographs on LIRR cars? Geez, they could save money and leave them off.
Better change the lettering to Pennsylvania. Then it could be somewhat authentic. Glad somebody besides me picked up the "LIRR with pantographs" error.
Lionel already had the Pennsy issue in the Early 90's.
A new, local road name is nice even if flawed. I wonder how close the I.C. version is? Weren't they Orange and Cream colored?
Speaking of color, are the LIRR, Grey or Tuscan?
avid
The LIRR cars are pictured as being a deep maroon or burgundy with black roofs.
The IC are pictured In a dark green or perhaps an olive drab, also with black roofs.
I guess that the only thing I have forgotten to post is that the IC cars are pictured with the numbers 1204 & 1205!
Avid, I have seen a picture of the LIRR cars with Pans!!I couldn't believe the picture. Only Lionel could do pans on the LIRR. I can't remember the color the cars. I was in shock over the Pans !!
The PRSL set from K-Line states authentic paint schemes and prototypical. We shall See.
Ron J.
I suspect, without having looked at the book, they are the K-line Heavyweigt bodies with four wheel traction trucks. Thats Okay, as long as they can deliver!
avid
Any HO modellers out there who'd want some cheap plastic commuter MU's and nice looking at that if generic. I did a set for NY Central. Found a closeout on some Life-Like shorty passenger cars (yes I also have HO in addition to S). Used the same motor truck (now obsolete) that I use on my S-rapid transit division..the old New Jersey made Tyco, later Mantua.
The other trucks can remain. Cut out windows on the end bulkheads and add details for your road of choice. Shoe beams, pantagraphs, headlights, lettering, etc. The motor truck a bit oversize unless you can find something better, cars scale about 60 feet. Worth a try for those who don't have the money to spend on the custom items and they look good.
A friend saw the Lionel catalog several days before I did. He was at "Toy Fair". From what he tells me the entire train collecting community is talking about Lionel's LIRR commuter cars with pantagraphs!
I guess it remains for the owner/operator to acquire an additional roof and replace the roof with the pant for the sake of authenticity.
Howerever for colletors , the screw up may be of additional value!
avid
I rode #9214-15 ont the #2 to last nights ERA meeting. This Redbird was pretty much like all the rest except the ceiling didn't have the square cutouts for ventilation back when the axiflow fans ruled. Instead the ceiling was smooth, no square air vents.
Does anyone know why this is so or are any others out there like this set?
BTW - 2 weeks ago, I spotted some Redbirds (unsure of #) at Grand Central southbound. One car had the #6 side route sign on the bottom and one on the top (north destination). Anybody catch this one ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Someone else caught it and posted the unit number a few days ago. He also found the train that has two northern rolls on the 7. Read the messages from the past week or so.
I remember back in 1993 that ML R-33s were running on the #7 Flushing Line. I do not know what the car Nos. were.
BMTJeff
I too have seen the smooth roofed redbirds on the 2, they have a friend on the 6 as well (8660). There are also several R-33 MLs with no emergency light on the blowers, either it is smooth where the light was or there is a plate bolted over that spot. There's also a WF R33 (9336) with the ML lighting (no center light track, no blinking out on third rail gaps).
Anyone know what happened on the PATH yesterday afternoon? Radio reports had service from 33rd Street suspended.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think someone got run over. I was working the booth at 14th Street abd 7th Avenue when folks started coming to the booth and asked how they could get to the WTC. Whoa! They all had the same idea. The booth clerk and myself directed folks over to the 1 so they could get down to Courtlandt St.
-Stef
I will be looking for the printed formal apology, as is customary for PATH after any disruption large or small.
We've been throwing a lot of stuff back and forth about the R142 and its problems; I often refer to "why does NYCT and Amtrak" have so much trouble yet other systems run modern equipment without all the teething and refit problems.
As the Chicago L has been my "second system" for years [hence the l meaning L at the end of my handle] I often refer to all the modern, high tech (?) CTA equipment and never hearing of major problems when they were new or ongoing failures or built in defects having to be corrected. Likewise other systems .
Have you had such problems with new equipment in Chicago such as the R142 have been going thru? Are any of the different type cars lemons that CTA has had to live with? Have any classes had to be revamped before going into service on a steady basis?
I've always wondered about Chicago (and others that get little publicity) and if they had cars like the R142 that seemed to be engineered wrong from the beginning. And it has happened before.
IIRC the Orange line debut was SERIOUSLY delayed by signalling issues involving onboard hardware. As to other properties, visit Rescue MUNI (.org) for an account of the MUNI Metro "meltdown" of August 98--they brought a new CBTC system on line after "years of testing" ad it repeatedly crashed, causing huge rider delays. "shakedown cruises" are a becessity for any new equipment, and no matter how brilliant the design and elegant the execution, there are always changes.
The 2600-series cars on the CTA (which form the backbone of the fleet) have been known to have problems with electrical fires in the motors, and the motors also had a design defect which allowed snow into the electrical components, shorting them out. However, these issues are being resolved as these cars are being rebuilt.
Ever since the 2400's were put in service, the CTA has always favored an incredibly conservative approach to the design of the new cars; each new generation of railcars has incorporated only incremental changes from the generation before it. On one hand it's nice not to have to reinvent the wheel with each new order, but on the other hand, the newest equipment (the 3200's) seems incredibly primitive compared to, say, the MBTA Bombardier 01800's which were built around the same time. It will be interesting to see what the CTA builds for the new Blue Line cars which will replace the 2200's... I suspect the new cars will be carbon copies of the 3200's except with maybe a few minor changes. But then, maybe we're in for a nice surprise. The Blue Line could concievably handle longer cars, and could certainly use the extra capacity, but I bet the CTA would be loathe to introduce a new set of specifications for the system. One of the huge advantages the CTA has over other transit systems is the huge amount of flexibility they have in terms of car assignments, since the entire system was built to the same specs.
-- David
Chicago, IL
As David No. 1 stated, CTA cars do indeed have their shortcomings and he is absolutely right about the CTA not trying to reinvent the wheel. Expect only the minimum of minimum design changes in a new series of cars, This engineering philosophy goes back decades and the people in engineering have been there a long, long time.
In short, there will be no Acela on the "L". For instance, ALL present CTA equipment has a 70 mph capability that is used no where on today's system.
And for the same philosophical reasons, there will be no cars of longer length ordered. The limiting curvarture on the Blue Line is not out on the road but the turn around loops in the terminals. And all car exchanges between lines must manuver the Loop "L" curves, so 50 ft is it!
How did this engineering history stand the test this winter? 3200's got onto just about every line because of their reliability and the rehabbed 2600 kept service on the Red Line running. There will be bonus checks in upcoming payslips this spring.
What's wrong with carbon copies of 3200's if they work and do the job??
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
How welldid the PCC L cars fare in less than ideal snowy winter conditions?
I will reply in one post and give thanks to all who have answered.[Not that I've forgotten what a mess BART was in the beginning but that was an isolated story, of course on an isolated system.]
My favorites on modern CTA have always been the 2400's, very unique styling but I have to admit the 3200's compete strongly for my feelings in that area. Very attractive cars and basic looking. If they're a success they might as well be duplicated.
Likewise a uniform car size. Thanx again. Maybe I can meet you or the other David some time ? Chicago is my adopted city so I visit once a year or two.
<< Chicago is my adopted city so I visit once a year or two. >>
Ed, maybe you can come into town Sept. 1, 2 and 3 when we do the Chicago Field Trip? David Cole has the details. Several folks from NY are taking the train to Chicago.
Does anyone know if the W train & the two Q trains are on schedule for the summer 2001 change.
No, the W and two-Qs are not on schedule, because they haven't started running yet. When they do start up, they may or may not run on schedule.
When us motormen & conductors start picking jobs, we will have an idea as to when all this stuff will occur. As of now, we have not seen these new work programs yet. This means that you can't have a schedule till one isn't made up!
Are they doing anything to prepare Dekalb ave for the swap? I see construction lights up, but I haven't seen them do anything yet. I hope they don't plan on just sending trains through, as if a 10 year cessation of service wouldn't cause any problems. I know they're working on the Canal st end, I noticed some new rail in place a few weeks ago.
I'm sure that the first trains through the flyunder to the Manhattan Bridge south side, and those tracks, too, will have many test trains running across them before the first revenue train crosses it.
--Mark
are the new blue line cars From siemens?
I don't know about where it's comming from. But I hope someone tell me how it look like?
Dominick Bermudez.
If you're asking about Boston... as Boston T Party mentioned, the
bid closing has not happened yet. That means that various
manufacturers have the opportunity to make proposals, and the
lowest qualified bidder will win. Try back in a few months...
have any designs for the new cars been made public yet? I believe this needs to happen before we can even mention the word bidding :-) -Nick
That's not how it normally works, Nick. The basic design and specs are worked out at planning. It then circulates around various departments at the T. The invitation to bid goes out. (This is the stage we're in now, I believe.) The bids come in and are opened on a particular date. Bids that don't meet the qualifications are thrown out and then the lowest bidder gets it.
An exception to this process happened recently on the 3 part bus order for the Silver Lines and replacements for the Cambridge ETB's. A somewhat radical group from Southie called the Conservation Law Foundation took exception to the hybrid Electric/Diesel Buses for the South Boston Transitway. They demanded to have input to push their adgenda of alternative fuel vehicles. Unfortunately no companies would bid anything other than diesel for the on board power plant. The CLF go ticked and walked away from the table saying they couldn't work with the T. The T went out a found their own advisory committee who, within the last few days, blessed the T's purchase. And so the the bid is awarded just the same way it was awarded a couple of months ago before the CLF objection.
Amazingly (HA), it works out with a few project delays and the buses will arrive about the time they're needed.
Very interesting...I guess we'll all see what happens in the next few months. By the way, what is the Cambridge ETBs...the experimental test low-floor busses? On another note, I wonder how much longer the trackless trolleys will last...and wheter or not they would actually be replaced. -Nick
ETB= Electric Trolley Bus or trackless trolleys.
The Silver Line bus package deal was for: 1. Hybrid Diesel/Electric for the South Boston Transit way - Logan Airport. 2. - Articulated Alternative fuel Buses for Washington St service. 3.- Low Floor ETB's to replace the fleet running out of Harvard Square.
"3.- Low Floor ETB's to replace the fleet running out of Harvard Square."
I'll be darned...I never thought they would actually replace them! -Nick
I should also add that the same catalog page offers two other two car sets, but these are two car non-powered sets.
Reading-pictured as being blue with a white stripe through the window area, silver or gray roofs, numbered 9111 & 9112.
New Haven-pictured as black, with an orange stripe above the windows, numbered 4084 & 4085
Both of these non-powered sets have a single GG-1 pantagraph on each car, and will retail for $299.95
These must be the companion sets for last years MUs.
Another cost effective choice is the NH heavyweights from Williams.They have two types, Heavyweigths and Madisons. The colors match,if not the car bodies. Alot of proto-type operaters had mixed consist.
avid
I am a postwar fan so I have not been keeping up on what has been made recently. I'm glad to hear that powered sets were previously available. I think that the New Haven cars as pictured would make a very attractive set, but I guess that is a matter of personal taste.
They do indeed, its just a matter of cost. $300. for two cars vs $200. for four cars. Just an alternative.
avid
The Williams New Haven passenger cars come in at 3 different styles.
The madison NH cars are the 15" size and are same size as Lionel madison cars.The Heavyweight cars are what Williams calls 72'cars and run on 042 curve track or greater. Both the NH madison and heavyweight cars have the same black and orange colors of the New Haven. The third Williams NH cars are the 72' Streamline Passenger cars that run again on 042 curve track or greater.These cars are silver with a orange window band.Williams also makes a New Haven Budd car set which is very similar to the Lionel Budd RDC-1 cars. So far the best New Haven cars made were the MTH Premier cars with the black roof.Very hard set to find.
Ron J.
Yup!
I received an ad from Williams in Saturdays mail. The 15" Madisons are the closest in length to the Lionel MUs. Four for $179.95, is a good deal. I'll just remove my eyeglasses to blur any outstanding differences. I've done the same in the past with K-line Green Reading MUs and a Reading Heavyweight Combine. The big differences were no pans and the combine had six wheel truck. OH, the combine lacked windows for the Engineer, so its always in the center. K-Line, in theory offers the best/economical matchup for interurban fleets. They had Pennsy and others Roads to Expand with their Heaveyweigth cars. They also had Eire-Lackawanna in Interurban and Heavyweigth, But I personally never saw either, just Catologs.
avid
I've used the same mind set in adding a coach to Doodlebugs. I realize MTH offers Dummy add-on matching Doodlebugs and I have some.
I feel the addition of a stray coach, same road name with different paint scheme adds a little realism.
After all , was it the practice to run Doodlebugs back to back?
Anyone on the history side, Please jump in.
avid
I know of NO railroad that double-headed doodlebugs. However, many did haul one or two coaches behind them. Only the Erie, AFAIK, had specific lightweight coaches that were designed to be hauled by their motor cars. Certainly the Pennsy just grabbed whatever was available when they needed to add a coach to a doodlebug run.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you Anon_e_mouse. That makes my decision a little factual and not all fanciful.
Tnen again the fanciful is what makes hobbies fun. I like fun things.
avid
In a brilliant stroke of genius, heypaul has convienced the MTA to declare a temporary change in service of the Far Rockaway branch of the "A' train.
The temporary change will last eigth years. The new service will be rerouted over the abandoned Rockaway Branch , Montauk Branch, Bushwick Branch and connecting to the 14th Street line to Manhattan. Once in Manhattan it will continue to a new terminal at the Javits Center. The Reroute will be called the JFK train to avoid confusion with the other "A' service.
Public hearings will not be necessary as the change is temporary.
Service changes will coinside with the 2012 Olympic games.
avid
LOL
BMTman
I enjoyed Avid's Story so much that I bookmarked the first post (194144), in order to let railfan friends read it when they visited. I believe this post was made on Feb 8th.
I tried to use the bookmark last night, and went into a "crash" or "freeze" before the page would completely load. This happened five times before I gave up.
Since I don't normally have many crashes, I am puzzled as to what may be wrong.
Does anyone have any suggestions?
Works fine for me... (not that I care, my personal opinion of that thread is on the same line as my opinion of the political threads that Dave has been deleting).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon, I just tried it again, and crashed again.
It loads 7k, and then freezes up. It is always a bad one too, with my only alternative to cut off power, and restart. None of the usual iMac restarts will work.
It really puzzles me because you're on a Mac product too, aren't you?
Maybe if you changed your display from chronological to Threads would help.
avid
Yes, a 350 mHz G3 with 128M of memory.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I believe it's related to your how your browser is setup, although I can't tell you how to make it work.
At home on a Power Mac 7500 , with a G3/300 upgrade card, Netscape 4.73 froze exactly as your described, at 7K.
Command-Option-Escape allowed me to do a "Force Quit", and everything sprang back to life, as it should.
Then I tried iCab, which opened the thread without a hitch.
At work on a Power Mac G4/500, no problem at all opening the thread with either Netscape 4.76. or iCab 2.2.
I tested it 5 minutes ago, and my computered also crashed. Mine is a Macintosh Performa.
Chaohwa
Thank You, At least I am not the only one.
Maybe SubTalk just does not like Macs.
I'm going to try one more time, and switch to threads as Avid suggested, try to bring it up from the thread, and forget about the bookmark.
I also noticed last night that some posts mysteriously disappeared and I was unable to find them.
BMTJeff
Were the threads that your posts were in deleted? If so, then your posts most likely went with them.
I've noticed at the bottom of the listing in the "by threads, reversed" display arrangement that older threads get broken up into segments of threads on a somewhat chronological basis. I don't know why this is but it makes hunting for things confuseing sometimes.
The messages were deleted completely and they cannot be found. They had something to do with Pork supposedly leaving SubTalk.
BMTJeff
Dave has deleted a number of off-topic and flaming threads. I haven't read the threads in question so I can only speculate that they are among the ones he pulled.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Dave pulled one of my threads that I started two days ago.
BMTJeff
I was participating in the one entitled "Forget Trains - Operate A Nuclear Sub" which got deleted because it was initially (far) off topic. Unfortunately, at the time it had just started to swing back on topic from poking fun at the local trolley museum and the serious issue of the accident where the Japanese fishing trawler was sunk to a discussion of PCC streetcars after Dan Lawrence wrote about how they don't have a traditional frame and I had written about a few technical changes that were made by the TTC in their last PCC major rebuilding programme, but much of the remainder of the thread was off topic and highly political.
-Robert King
I apologize for the thread turning political - not my original intent - it was more of a comment on how cabs on trains are insanely secured against the intrusion of railfans whereas a dangerous military vessel such as a nuclear submarine allowed geese in the cab with no problem or outcry at all by comparison. That was where that whole thing was coming from when I started it. I be good now. :)
Sorry I didn't get to read that one (or at least its good parts)... I got behind for a couple of days and was playing catch-up, I just hadn't gotten to that one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, I did make a mistake in adding a political comment in the explanation, so I won't post it again. But as it developed, there was also some Canadian Museum trashing for overly strict policies on geese playing with PCC cars. If the thread went entirely that's a pity as it did have some amusing twists and turns along the way.
But my bottom line was why they seal the doors on locomotives and airplanes where there is no nuclear weaponry in the cab and yet civvies are allowed at the helm of nuclear subs ... I remember a time when I'd routinely ride the cabs of Amtrak, MetroNorth and other lines with buddies of mine and now, under the rules, can't even knock on the door. :)
>>> I remember a time when I'd routinely ride the cabs of Amtrak, MetroNorth and other lines with buddies of mine and now, under the rules, can't even knock on the door. <<<
But you can rest assured that if the president of the railroad wanted to impress someone who was going to invest a great deal of money in the railroad, that person would get to ride in the cab, and probably be allowed to blow the horn.
Tom
Heh. I remember one MetroNorth wig who took over the cab and either got canned or locked in a back room for getting caught by the media doing it. Not too many years ago either. It is strange though how priorities manage to get set. :)
Actually, if my memory serves me correctly, that was Peter Stengle. Since then he's moved onward and upward and now heads Bombardier's heavy rail division. Just goes to show.
Heh. Shows to go ya ... and the name sounds right. Well, I'll bet he's getting his throttle time now. :)
The whole thread was erased, unfortunately. Too bad...
I should have written about an earlier part of the PCC trip while we were on our way back to the carhouse when a police cruiser suddenly started following the PCC... That was amusing...
-Robert King
Robert,
If you would repost the PCC part you started (or replyed to), I will try to repost my PCC frame stuff. Perhaps, since it is transit orientated, maybe we can get a discussion going and increase eveyone's PCC knowledge.
What say?
I'll do that after I get some lunch :)
I have no idea why he would pull my "white text" thread if he did, he even posted in it!
he also pulled the webpagesthatsuck thread that he started.
Pork:
He pulled one of my threads that I had started and I cannot find it. I hope he has the sense to archive it and not throw it out.
BMTJeff
I want to thank everyone for their suggestions on my "crash" problem. I'm back, but on a restricted basis. My problem seems to be isolated to SubTalk only. I crash when I attempt to bring up Post #194144 by bookmark, or when I attempt to find the post by switching to threads. I seem to be OK when I stay in the one day chronological format.
I've had 12 crashes now trying to solve the problem, so I won't try anymore, and hopefully get the computer to the hospital in the near future.
Thanks Again!
According to today's Asbury Park Press, New Jersey has declined the Redbirds as artificial reefs. They apparently don't believe that the expected twenty-year life span is sufficient to justify the expense of using them. "Tanks [with their 1000-year lifespan] are a much better investment."
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
While taking some pictures today at Mineola station, an unusual train pulled into the station from the Oyster Bay branch. It stopped on the eastbound track at Mineola for about 15 minutes and then headed east on the Main Line. The train consisted of one diesel LIRR engine #164 on the west end, followed by an FRA car (pictured below) then a Union Pacific gondola car and finally another diesel LIRR engine #157. The second picture shows the train heading east past Nassau tower. Talk about being at the right place at the right time. (Well it is my birthday today!)
Happy birthday! Thanks for sharing your present with us.
Is it true that the reason why the 2,3, switch Brooklyn terminals back in the 1980's was because the 3 route was too short between 148th St Lenox Terminal & Flatbush & the #2 line was too long between 241 St & New Lots. True or False.
Is it true that the reason why the N,R, lines switch Queens terminals
was because the R line was to short between Astoria & Fort Hamilton & the N line was to long between Forest Hill & Coney Isl. True or False
The answer to both questions is absolutely false.
The reason for the switchovers was because the 3 and RR lines did not have direct access to a yard for servicing. With the switchover, the 3 now has direct access to Livonia Yard (Lenox Yard is used only for storage) and the R has access to Jamaica Yard. The 2 has 239 St Yard and the N has Coney Island Yard.
That makes much more sense than the BS given for the N/R in the 1987 map. "To better serve our customers." What, Queens Blvd benefitted from loosing a Broadway Express/Bridge service? Show of hands, who uses the R to get to downtown Manhattan? (more people now use it to get from downtown since it started running express).
They were serving their customers better. Since the R now had direct access to a yard, it became a lot more reliable and less trains were wasted in deadheading.
And the N is a local just like the R. It makes no difference which one goes where. The N was a local in 1987 too.
The N is a local, correct, and was a local in the 80s, but if the plan used during 1990 suspension of work by the DOT is any indication of the future, the N will be the Broadway express/bridge service when both sides are open. Whatever comes off the bridge has the option of the bypass tracks to 4th ave express, so whatever goes over would probably be a 4th ave express (wether it stops at Dekalb or not). The Sea Beach has more stops than the R line, and would be better served by the 4th ave express. Therefore the only way Queens Blvd can get a Broadway express is if the N were running there (unless you do some fancy Q routings).
And Queens IND riders would probably WANT a local, as this would give them access to lower Manhattan, not being rerouted to Brooklyn after Canal St. I believe Astoria riders will howl about this when both sides of the Manny B open up and only the N, via the bridge operates there.
The N always ran local from Queens in the peak direction anyway. No noticable difference besides the letter change from N to R took place. And 24/7 Manhattan-bound local service was definatley an upgrade (back then, the N only ran to Queens from 6 AM to 9 PM).
The 24 hour service was cut back in 1990 (or was it 92?) anyway.
Yup, in 10/92, but still it's an improvement. Weekends before the switch the Queens IND only had G trains for local service.
To better serve our customers can be judged to mean the elimination of the dreadful cars running on the Astoria R train prior to the switch. Bay Ridge riders got the most immediate and dramatic improvements. Sea Beach riders did have to endure with grafitti covered R32's through the summer of 1987 as they were replaced with new R68's.
The reason was to give the #3 line direct access to a yard so new R62's could run on it. Like the old R/RR, the old #3 had no service facility at either end. The #2 line had one at both, as did the old N.
When stations are being built, what causes some platfroms to be built slightly offset from each other? Some are offset by just a car length or so. I'd like to know why Bleecker St is the way it is.
When Bleecker St was built in 1904, it had platforms only long enough for 5 car trains, and they were directly opposite one another. The southbound side was extended in the 1940s, but the northbound platform wasn't extended until the 1960s.
I couldn't answer why the southbound platforms at Bleecker (as well as Astor Pl, Spring St, and Canal st) were extended to the south, whereas when the time came years later to extend the northbound platforms, they extended them to the north.
-- Ed Sachs
Perhaps the most offset platforms of all are at State Station in Boston, where both are on the same side of their respective tracks. The northbound platform is centered on State St. while the southbound platform is a block and a half south between Water St. and south of Milk St. The southbound platform ends about a half block from the NORTHBOUND platform at Downtown Crossing. It is also located directly above the northbound track. A passageway extends above the northbound track to the middle of the northbound platform where it turns east and connects to the Blue Line.
The reason for all this is the width of Washington St. and the necessary interconnections to the Blue Line. The merchants along Washington St. encouraged the offset platforms to allow for a subway entrance at almost every block.
The Downtown Crossing and Chinatown stations also exhibit offset platforms, though there is an overlap at each. Chinatown's platforms are also at different levels.
The northbound and southbound platforms at Canal on the IRT Lex were extended north, while the others had the north-south split you mentioned.
Extending Bleeker to the south would have made a lot more sense in order to build an underpass to connect the Uptown 6 with the IND, but when it was done Broadway-Lafayette only connected to the Culver line going towards Brooklyn, and they probably didn't see the need for the added cost (connecting the downtown side was just a matter of knocking a hole in the wall). Chrystie Street changed all that.
With the current bridge situation an uptown link to the 6 would help a lot of people, though after the flip flop, the fairly-new transfer point between the 6 and the Q/W and Canal will be where the Brooklyn-bound traffic will go.
Canal Street does have an offset station, on the A/C/E, which also has offsets at 42nd Street and Chambers/WTC, though that one's in a slightly different category, since the express platforms are offset from the local platform terminal, instead of the uptown and downtown offsets like at the other stations.
I remember a passage leading East from the East end of the IND mezz. It was blocked off by a fence but it appeared to lead to the street East of the IRT ROW. A wall installed in one of the renovation jobs blocks any view of the passage now.
I remember the passage(s) you are talking about. There were actually 2, each of which was directly over the IND platforms. The one over the uptown platform, I believe, was the one that was visible until the renovation. The one over the downtown side, I don't remember ever seeing it open. Before the renovation, it was suffering from a fairly ugly leak, worse when it was raining, which made its way to the IND platform. If you go to the east end of the downtown platform, you can still see the corroded column along which some of the water ran. When they renovated the station they demolished both passageways and fixed the leak, which is why the platform ceilings at the east end of the IND platforms are so high. I never realized there was another passageway over the downtown platform until demolition began, and that's when I saw the big hole in the ceiling where the water leaked from. Because of the 2 passageways, the ceilings were so low you could practically reach up and touch them. These days, if you go to the east end of the IND platforms, you should still be able to make out the entranceways to these passageways.
On another note, when they were starting the renovation, they knocked down a couple of walls in the IND mezzanine which apparently had been erected during the early '80's, because it revealed a bunch of old billboards. One of them was for Twilight Zone-The Movie! Also, does anyone know where the exits were for the 2 passageways?
> and they probably didn't see the need for the added cost
Oh, come on! Would it really have been that much more expensive to have extended the uptown Bleecker Street Station platform toward the south as opposed to the north? It seems all the same to me. Plus, there's the fact that extending the platform south would be extending it toward Houston Street, which is a bigger street than any nearby street to the north. And even if Houston Street only carried one Subway line, that's still more than any easily accessible street to the north, and the very fact that there were four tracks under Houston Street should have hinted at future expansion. Thus, they should have extended it south, just like they did with the downtown platform.
- Lyle Goldman
> The southbound side was extended in the 1940s, but the
> northbound platform wasn't extended until the 1960s.
That explains the different wall designs at the station. The middle of the station has a look peculiar to the original IRT line, while the southbound extension has a design more like the IND stations, and the northbound extension has those rectangular tiles with the station name written aligned in small letters without the big mosaic name tablets, just like the Grand Street Station on the Chrystie Street line.
By the way, why did they only extend the southbound platforms in the 1940's, but not the northbound platforms?
- Lyle Goldman
By the way, why did they only extend the southbound platforms in the 1940's, but not the northbound platforms?
Because it's easier to board a train in any available car, than it is to exit the train if you happen to be in a non-platforming car.
Therefore the platforms must be lengthened first in the direction of greater alighting, then when all of the platforms are complete, in the direction of greater boarding.
It would be more sensible to extend BOTH platforms at the same time.
No it isn't.
It would make more sense to extend two platforms in the outbound direction, at different stations, than two extend both platforms in one station at the same time.
The IRT offset platforms are because when they were lengthened they were done in different directions. The IND at 42nd st was done so that the station would cover more blocks and thus attract customers from 39st to 45st (hey, there's an entrance only a block away!). I presume that's why Canal/8th was done as well. Chambers/WTC are technically 2 different stations, they have separate fare control and separate dots on the map. One of the Fulton st stops (which?) is offset as well, I've no idea why. Some stations have platforms on one side longer than the other (ie Shea Stadium and Rockaway line stations). The Rockaway line stations have this phenomenon at Playland and Aqueduct for crowd handling when the LIRR ran things (12 85' car trains).
The IND at 42nd st was done so that the station would cover more blocks and thus attract customers from 39st to 45st
The platforms were offset in anticipation of heavy crowding. The offset allows each island platform to be twice as wide as other express/local stations. The IND wanted Times Square traffic, too, and figured they'd be better able to handle the crowds that the IRT's "H" system and the BMT's Broadway subway.
--Mark
I notice I have less apprehension at 42nd ST. then say Eucild Ave.
That station has some really narrow platforms.
avid
That offset configuration at 42nd St. threw me for a loop when I first became a Saturday commuter in September of 1967. The funny thing is, we had boarded trains at that station earlier that year, and I never noticed anything.
The confusion began while waiting for a southbound train on Sept. 30. I looked at the northbound tracks and there was no platform at that point. I thought, how can that be? Then a northbound prewar AA train went by, bull and pinion gears wailing away, and I was even more confused. A local not stopping? What the...? How in the...?
It got even better that afternoon. Our A train approached 42nd St., and as we went past the southbound platform, I thought, OK, when are we stopping? A few seconds later, the northbound platform came into view, and our train slowed to a stop.
A week or so later, it all fell into place. We were at 34th St. and I was gazing out the railfan window on our northbound A train. Just as we started moving, I looked over at the local track, and that's when I realized the northbound platform at 42nd St. is simply further north, and that all trains stop there. Duh.
and also to handle the transfer traffic fron exp to lcl that couldn't be done at 34
Don't forget, the downtown E train track that comes up to meet the exp and local ducks back down to the lower level of 42nd street. From the uptown platform you can actually see the ramp going down just north of the downtown platform. The uptown side does not have this arrangement, so it can afford to be farther north.
One of the Fulton st stops (which?)
I'm not sure about Fulton Street but it's most likely that it's the one on the 4 and 5 lines. The Wall Street and Bowling Green stations on the same line are offset, too. So are some stops on the Broadway IRT line like 215th Street.
As for the Shea Stadium stop, the extention towards Main Street on the Manhattan-bound platform is the original platform.
I think he's referring to the IND Fulton St. line in Brooklyn. One of the local stops has offset platforms. IIRC it's either Franklin Ave. or Kingston-Throop Aves.
It is Kingston-Throop
Thanks!
The IRT offsets on the east side line were done in two stages. First, they lengthened the southbound platforms at Astor, Bleecker, Spring and Canal (perhaps as Worth as well), so that all doors on the longer local trains would open and passengers would not have to pass from car to car to exit. (I think I remember the old Lo-V cars in a five car train; the front and rear end doors would not open.)
At Brooklyn Bridge, heading north, only the first half of the train would open to receive passengers. Only the first half of the train fit on the platforms at Worth, Canal, Spring, Bleecker, and Astor.
Later on, they closed Worth, and expanded the northbound platforms. Question, though, why they did the offset and why they didn't go south at Bleecker so that there would be a full interchange with the B division station?
Perhaps the property line was favorible in the opposite direction. Some of these stations are on curves and may have been to close the building line and may have necessatated condemnation. Where as in the other direction, nosuch proceedings were called for. I'm guessing here.
avid
Also an underpass at Houston paralell to the hole in the wall they knocked out to connect the IND to the 6 wouldn't work, since its right under to uptown F local tracks. They would have to build a stairway or ramp back down to the lower level running north alongside the No. 6 local platform (requiring closure of the IND entrances with the iron maiden on the northwest side of Houston and Layfayette), and then tunnel under the IRT tracks before coming up on the uptown local side. The alternative would have been a new stairs and cut-back mezzanine at the far east end of the Broadway-Lafayette platform (even possibly requiring a platform extension into the tunnel) that would be on the same level and the same side as the uptown No. 6 train.
Creating the downtown transfer in 1959 just required a few strong guys with sledgehammers to knock a wall down. Building an uptown one would have been more complicated, and since B'way-Lafayette only served the Culver line going towards Brooklyn at the time, the TA probably decided the cost outweighed the benefits (even though Christye Street already was in the planning stages).
[and since B'way-Lafayette only served the Culver line going towards Brooklyn at the time, the TA probably decided the cost outweighed the benefits ]
What about the that station serving people from Brooklyn heading towards the East Side?
Arti
They probably thought Culver passengers should switch to the A at Jay Street and then switch to the 4/5 at Fulton...if they thought about it at all.
The southbound platform at Worth St. was lengthened.
It was common practice; in fact SOP, to not use the doors on the very ends of trains of vestibule rolling stock.
I believe the offset at Canal on the 8th Ave line was to allow for the bellmouth for the Thomas St cut off . Part of the Phase II plan.
avid
There could be a number of factors. One of them is that one street intesects another on a diagonal, thus the reason why the platforms on The Huntingdon station on The Market-Frenkford line is slightly offset, or the tunnel itself becomes angled from umder the street, thus the reason why The 37th Street Subway-Surface station is completely offset.
I suspect it may have to do with underground obstacles making one direction easier to expand into than another.
The parking fee at the new Green line stations will be raised to $2.00 next month. It is free now to encourage ridership but the original plan was to have it raised to $1.00 on March 1 and $1.75 in June or July. The extra money will be used to expand parking at the new stations.
I'm back in Boston after a 2-day trip to The Large Apple for a session of Transit and Weather Together.
Before leaving this morning, I went to WTC to ride this weekend's GO through the 63rd street connector: north via W. 4th and 6th Ave, then thorugh the 63rd street tube, out to Parsons Archer, and return via normal route (53rd street tube and 8th ave.). All went smoothly, despite the fact that all three of the E, F, and R are sharing the 63rd street tube; there was a two-minute wait for an R to clear the interlocking south of Lex/63rd.
Of interest was that at Spring Street northbound, there was an offical (TSS I presume) sitting on a stool at the [10] car marker. I heard him tell the T/O, "remind W. 4th who you are and wait until you have a bottom yellow. Then take the bottom yellow per the general order." So the T/O called W. 4th and said, "West 4th tower, 9:51 World at Spring requesting bottom yellow." We got it, and we went. Of course this is one of those spots where the "diverging" signal is straight ahead (heading to W 4th lower), and the "normal" route, actually a right turnout, goes to the upper level. [Bill from Maspeth or zman179 -- can you shed more light on this individual and his verbal orders at Spring?]
The C/R made MANY announcements about the GO and the revised route, but I was surprised what he did NOT say: In particular, he did not inform passengers that there was no service at 5/53, Lex/53, and 23/Ely on the northbound; he was silent on that issue and many got off hoping to catch an F. Also, he told people who needed local stations between 21/Queensbridge and Roosevelt to go to Roosevelt, cross over, and take a Manhattan-bound R. It seems to me it would have been shorter and easier for folks to get off at 21/Queensbridge and wait for an R... since they were running through there too!
The handout for the GO had a map which implied that the E & F were going local from 21/Queensbridge to Roosevelt (36th street was shown as a "dot" on the map for all three of E, F, and R. But the E&F were going express -- only the R local.
Transit and Weather Together will be on vacation for the next two weeks. When I return, photo essays of Sydney, Singapore, and Bangkok rail for www.nycsubway.org!
[The C/R (conductor) made MANY announcements about the GO and the revised route, but I was surprised what he did NOT say....]
The conductor on my E train this afternoon was also silent about getting to 53rd/Fifth and 53rd/Lex, until we were arriving at Queensbridge. Only then did she mention taking the shuttle bus to 23rd/Ely for the southbound E,F.
She even announced at 47th/50th that the next stop would be 63rd/Lex; the train opeator had to correct her.
Aren't conductors given scripts to follow?
There was some confusion on my train, alot of door holding at 47-50th street. Some guy who seemed drunk held the doors up a bit. He seemed to know about the subway though, and yelled G.O. advice at everybody in the car. Unfortunately he kinda pushed me away from the railfan window.
Yes, C/R's are given announcement sheets detailing word for word what announcement must be made and at what stop that it must be made at.
However the announcements that are written fail to cut the mustard as far as giving precise and detailed info.
Except for a low or bad order PA system, there is absolutely no excuse for a C/R to not keep his passengers properly informed, especially during reroutes.
Happy vacationing! Looking forward to your pictures!
I have to get around to riding through the tube. Have seen the Roosevelt Island station once.
That would be a TSS at Spring St. Being that the C would continue onto the upper level at W.4th and the E would need the lower level, extra added attention would be needed to make sure that the E train motormen take the proper lineup, otherwise they would be committed to go uptown. At the homesignal, bottom green keeps you on track A2, but the geography of the railroad makes you cross to the right. A bottom yellow puts you on track AB2, you technically are diverging onto a different track eventhough you are continuing "straight rail". It is a bit confusing, but remember a bottom green keeps you on the same track NUMBER and a bottom yellow brings you to a different track NUMBER. Curiously, the old JFK express took the same line-up into W4th and it was unnecessary to ID on the radio. The tower-operator at Canal St. would simply say on the line speaker: "W4th, next into Spring: JFK." But things are done a lot differently today! As for lineups and track numbers, here is something which doesn't make any sense to me. When you come up from 21 St toward 36th St., you are already on track T2 and you will wind up on D2 or D4, the tracks of the Queens IND. But here a bottom green takes you from T2 to D4 and a bottom yellow brings you from T2 to D2. To my way of thinking, this defies logic! But I must assume the engineers who decided on and blue-printed this line up designation think differently than I do!
A 75 year old woman pushed a shopping cart around gates and was killed by train 53 (Hoboken to Middletown) around 1:45 PM Friday in Fair Lawn, NJ. Story in Saturday's Bergen Record.
Ok, that story was really sad, but there is just something funny about someone trying to beat a train with a shopping cart and getting stuck on the tracks. I mean is FULL SIZED CARS can't beat a train and/or get stuck on the tracks what chance does a human propelled shopping cart have. I know that she was 75 years old, but still people really need to GET A CLUE.
WOW! That train is the same exact train I was waiting for at Suffern to come back (the 3:02 from Middletown)! The automated platform announcement said "Attention at Suffern, the 4:21 train to Hoboken is 30 minutes late due to a police investigation." I decided to let the 4:35 mainline go and wait until it arrived. At 5:04 the next Mainline is ready to leave (I am already in the vestibule), and I hear "Attention at Suffern, the 4:21 train to Hoboken will arrive on the Port Jervis bound track, please use the crossunder at the south end of the station." So I go for it, and it flies by completely empty and does not stop. I miss the 5:04 while trying to cross back, and end up on the 5:36. The conductor on that train informed me that the 3:27 Hoboken to Waldwick, which normally deadheads back, had instead made the Bergen County line stops.
There is a G.O. this weekend (incl Monday) for E,F and R trains going to Queens going through the 63rd st line.
So I figured today was a good opportunity to ride the E.
Took the 7 from Flushing, and changed to an R68 N at Queensboro Plaza for Manhattan. The N was waiting in the station, as there was a G.O. for all N trains today. No N from QBP to Astoria. Shuttle bus instead. There was also an N on the upper, I guess they reverse somewhere north of the station. The N ride through the 60th st tunnel was fast, very fast. The R68 performed well. Those GT's are pretty easy.
There was a loud buzzing from the speaker, and motor noise being amplified (other pax complained, I didn't mind at all).
Got off at Cortlandt-WTC.
After a bathroom break at Borders I headed for the E. Got down to the platforms at 12:45pm. There was a pretty crowded R32 E in the station. Headed to the front car which was fairly empty, which usually is a good sign when you want the window. But someone was already there, sitting down then getting up to the window just before I arrived. There was an announcement that there were delays in Queens-bound E service, the T/O said that there was a sick passenger at 21st.
I did not board that train, hoping another R32 would pull in as the next train. No such luck, an R46 E pulled in, and the other train being held finally left.
The E was running about every 10 minutes. So the 1pm E was the R46. At around 1:02pm an R32 E finally pulls in, and I step on to an available window, right?? Wrong! Some guy comes in (looks like a railfan) and starts making announcements to the car about the diversion. He was kinda loud, sounded abit drunk. Then when the train finally pulled out at 1:10pm, he moved in front of the window squashing me out of there. (I'm a small guy, other people just love to push me around).
So I just stood away from the window peering out when he wasn't in the way. It was a pretty fast ride, and no trains were in front of us.
The guy moved away from the window in the 63rd street tunnel, so I did get it back for a little bit, until 21st.
The guy comes back and I move away. He is visibly excited, since it was announced the E will run express.
Pretty fast, but uneventful ride. Then before Roosevelt ave, the guy moved away from the window, and bumps right into me as I'm standing near a pole. I lost my balance and fell on somebody. I got back up and the window was available again. So I move back when we get to Roosevelt ave, only to have a kid get it from me again when I had to get a tissue to wipe my face. Man that railfan window on the E is in high demand. Got off at Forest Hills and took two buses back to Flushing.
After today, it seems some other railfans just don't have much "railfan manners".
No N from QBP to Astoria?
Gee, then I wonder how the N train I was on, along with all the others [with pax], managed to get to Astoria!
Maybe the GO was in effect earlier in the day, because everything was normal when I was there between 5-7 PM.
Well at around 12 noon there were announcements all over QBP, and G.O. signs saying that shuttle buses replaced trains from QBP to Astoria. The N train I got on had a T/O board and then charge the train. There were also announcements on the train "this N train is going to Manhattan, for Astoria go downstairs to the shuttle bus".
It must've been only till afternoon or something. The MTA website does not list this G.O.
Maybe it was emergency construction work.
The stairs at the very north end of both uptown and downtown N/R Times Sq station have opened! How long did that construction work took anyway?!?
And the next stair immediately south on the uptown platform has CLOSED!!! I wonder if they are replacing that back to a ramp as it was before?!?!?
The southern stair will probably remain a stair, it will be closed until next Monday (2/26) which is not enough time to do anything useful with it. Did they only open the stairs or did they open up the whole area (the ellipse or whatever they're calling it).
I hope the music store reopens when they're done with this mess. I have vague memories of the area before the rehabs started, with the ramp and stair combo it was great. People going to the N/R would use the stairs, and people coming from it would use the ramp. A seamless arrangement, no? I'm wondering why they didn't put in an escalator.
There is still alot of construction in other areas so there are only paths to each opened stairs. The paths are surrounded by those "temporary" wooden walls.
The ramp is gone for good. It will be replacved by elevators. The ramps did not meet ADA specs.
The ramps did not meet ADA specs.
The ramps may not have met ADA specs but they did carry more people than the stairs that replaced them. This leaves the station platforms with less exit capacity than before.
It's a good thing that the MTA run facilities are not subject to local fire laws or building codes because occupancy limits are related to evacuation speed.
Why is that a good thing?
Occupancy levels could NEVER be enforced. Just imagine
occupancy is 500 people on the platform. If you let 500 on the platform (and how do you count them?), how do you stop other people from getting on the platform?. The second a train opens its doors and people start to step out you have a violation.
Who cares if they met ADA specs? Wheelchair bound people still used them. I remember seeing someone transfer from the shuttle to the N/R and only had to ask someone for help with those few steps between the S platform and the N/R mezzanine. Couldn't they have simply rehabbed them and used them in conjunction with the elevators? True, there are somemany places in Times Square where the ramps are stupid and should be replaced with stairs, like that whole N/R to the 7 thing. That winding ramp is the very reason why when I transfer I go via the 1-2-3-9 platform, stairs all the way. Maybe they'll surprise us by extending the mezzanine and either adding a third stairway or a ramp. Or, they should put in escalators.
I dont know what the specifics are but for all new construction (Such as Archer Ave Line) and renovations over a certain dollar amount(which I do not know) then ADA accesibility must be included. I do not know specificas, maybe some architect can help here, but the ADA specifies how steep a ramp can be, width of ramp,length of ramp before a landing is required etc.
Stillwell's ramps, while I have seen customers using a wheelchair on these ramps, also do not meet ADA's requirements.
Before ADA was passed many facillities (Transit or other places) had ramps but wheelchair users could not use the ramp due to excessive steepness.
True, the ramps at Times Square carried more people than the stairs. Let's remember- the station is under major renovation while serving normal traffic. There will be elevators from street to the mezzanine and from the mezzanine to the N/R Platforms. This contract addresses the N/R ADA requirements. I have not seen any info on whetehr the 1/2/3/9 will have elevators. The 7 will get elevator access in a future phase of the Times Square Complex rebuild.
Phase 1: Bmt and IRT 1/2/3/9 platforms and connecting passageways. 7 Line and IND (A/C/E) are in phase 2. I am not sure, but I believe the shuttle can be/ will be accessed from the BMT mezzanine.
As part of the BMT rebuild, a viewing area to be called " The Elipse" will allow a view of N/R trains from the mezzanine which will also have daylight streaming in through glass block sidewalks.
Who cares if they met ADA specs?
Those of us who are disabled do. Right now I'm walking fairly well, but there have been times in my life when I've been in a wheelchair or on crutches and stairs have been impossible to negotiate; even now I will use a ramp if one is available. A combination of old injuries, rheumatoid arthritis, and cardiac issues will eventually put me back in a chair, and I'd like to be able to continue to use the subway when that happens.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I mean, just because it isn't ADA doesn't mean it should have been removed before the elevator was put in. Difficult access is better than none. Anyway, wether it was ADA is irrelevant to the fact that it was much better than the stairs there now.
-- I just realized why it was removed! It was too wide, wheelchair passengers could not navigate safely around the ramp for the length of the ramp. The stairs take up less platform space and I think are narrower. Still doesn't explain why it was removed at the beginning of the project.
I hate steep ramps like the ones at Stillwell Avenue, stairs are a lot easier to navigate going up. Going down its fine.
I didn't get to use the Times Square ramps all that often to remember how it was.
I remember those ramps very well. They didn't seem to be that steep; however, a wheelchair would have had a tough time of it.
Every time I travel with more than one suitcase I think to myself, "Gee, wouldn't it be nice if I could wheel these suitcases up and down a ramp and not have to worry about lugging 50 lbs. up and down stairs or even an escalator?"
ADA compliance makes the subway more accessible to everyone - and there are situations (like the one above)where good access would mean that more people would hop on a train rather than call a cab or drive.
Aren't there any plans for hanicapped elevators at the north end of the BMT Times Square station ?
Also, the southern end of this station needs stairways for a street exit. Can this be done or are there any engineering problems ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Also, the southern end of this station needs stairways for a street exit. Can this be done or are there any engineering problems ?
There's already a stair leading to an exit at 40th Street. It seems sufficient for the traffic it gets when I use it.
There are handicapped elevators being installed. Look to the right of the newly opened staircase, there's the barricade covering the path to the elevator.
I tried the live chat at 8 on saturday but I can't get into it!
That's because there is no live chat.
Want one? Get an IRC client and go to server irc.cjb.net and channel #metrocard.
If anyone has noticed Pork didn't leave SubTalk for good. He is back for sure and I expect him to stay. I received and E-mail today from someone that he only "left" for a few hours. He's back and here to stay.
BMTJeff
Does anybody know when the R-143 subway cars will be entering service and which line they are running on. The best indication I have is that the R-143s will be running on the "L" (14th Street Canarsie line) when they enter service. If anyone has further information please let me know.
BMTJeff
I think we just touched on tis subject yesterday, Jeff....do check the archives. There is no word on when they will be here, but yes, the L line is a probable bet for where they end up; but nothing is set in stone. -Nick
I'll check the archives is I can to see when the R-143s will be entering service. BTW I believe that there has been an order placed for the R-160 subway cars which will be like the R-143s.
BMTJeff
"BTW I believe that there has been an order placed for the R-160 subway cars which will be like the R-143s."
Excellent! Is Kawasaki getting this order as an option? Any designs available yet? Thank you for this new info, Jeff :-) -Nick
I'm not 100% sure whether or not Kawasaki is going to build the R-160s but it is likely that they will. It is also possible that the order might be shared with Bomdardier.
BMTJeff
What type of seating arrangement will he R/143s have?
Will the seating be strickly longitudinal or a mix with latitudinal seating. Can I remain a latitudinarian. The R/44s, R/46s, R/68s have spoiled me.
avid
The R143 will have the same seating as the R142s/R142As. Seats along the sides.
Oh well. I had hoped for a return of the R/10 interior.
avid
The R143 will have the same seating as the R142s/R142As. Seats along the sides.
That's horrible.
Foolish!! 10 foot wide MUs demand cross seating. Goes back to the days of the AB MUs (standards) in 1915.
I can understand for the narrower IRT MUs, but not for the IND/BMT.
The cars will be able to hold more people standing that sitting. And I guess they're trying to pack as many people in per train.
They should use at least some cross seating in the R-143s otherwise they'll be like the R-32s,R-38s,R-40s and R-42 that they'll eventually replace. A smart thing to do would be to arrange the seats like the R1/9s, R-10s and R-16s in one trainset of R-143s and see how well it works in actual service. If the people like the combination cross and longitudinal better than the all longitudinal seating arrangement they should use the combination seating arrangment.
BMTJeff
Some for express and long distance service, like the "A""F""D" trains. Bench type for the shorter and local trains "C""B""R" to name only a few examples of each.
avid
I think that I would have combination cross and longitudinal seating on the "B" train in addition to the other ones that you mentioned in your post since the "B" train goes to Coney Island and that is a long ride from Midtown Manhattan.
BMTJeff
I split the difference, one side bench, the other combo. So now I,m advocating 3 seating arrangements.
avid
Please describe the seating arrangement that you propose. Would it be similiar to the R-1/9, R-10 and R-16 subway cars?
BMTJeff
It would be like the R-110. One side has the front back and side facing seats, the other side is just benches. The sides alternate after each door.
I would use a seating arrangment in the R-143s like the one used in the R-1/9, R-10 and R-16 subway cars with the alternating cross and longitudinal seats on each side of the car.
BMTJeff
will the propulsion sound like that of the r142a? (Ex: the whining of the engine)
Type 1) all bench seating
Type 2) Alternate bench one side cross seating {R/10} opposite.
Type 3) R/10 seating.
Depending on distance, passenger volumn, number of transfer points, would determine car type or mix of car types.
avid
I always prefer combo seating, since I can look out the windows that the miscreants haven't scratched while sitting down.
www.forgotten-ny.com
"Seats along the sides."
In rail terminology, this means bench instead of bucket style seating. Apparently there were lots of complaints about seating and places to stand on the R110s (both A and B), so the MTA decided to eliminate seats and add more poles....ugh! -Nick
Yes they did. They put poles along the top of the car in the center. I know I'll never be able to reach that with my 5'' 9' height. I can't even reach the top of today's cars.
I know I'll never be able to reach that with my 5'' 9' height.
With a height of five inches and nine feet, you wouldn't even fit into a car sitting down. :-)
I'm the same height as you are and I'm able to reach the poles in the top center of the cars that have them since my armspan is at least 6'1" which is greater than my height. A few of my body's proportions are slightly strange which allows me to do a few things which are a little odd.
BMTJeff
The same rules will apply to the R143's as the R142's. It is absolutely impossible to even speculate since not one car has even arrived, let alone be in the shops for personell to become familiar with the cars, operating crews trained, cars being accepted & tested, yada, yada, yada. If the R142's are any indication of what is to come, I wouldn't hold my breath! It is a good bet they'll enter service on the L line since they will be 4 car units of 60 foot cars. When they break down, the L line will be the only line affected and not the rest of the B division!
"The best indication I have is that the R-143s will be running on the "L" (14th Street Canarsie line) when they enter service. "
Although it hasn't been finalized yet, the R-143's will go totally on the (L) with the balance spilling over to the (M).
The (L) line is currently being set up for CBTC (Commuications Based Train Control). The R-143's will use CBTC on the (L) since the (L) doesn't share with other lines. The R-143's will probably have CBTC turned off when operating on tme (M).
This imformation has been reported on the board before, but it all can change, so stay tuned.
Bill "Newkirk"
The site of the Wendy's in Flushing will become a chinese take-out. The owner of the Wok & Roll chain is interested in the property.
Wendy's claims they will re-open in 18 long months to the people of Flushing in another location downtown.
A NIMBY friendly judge has temporarily halted power plant construction in Queens. These loud, vocal and rich few have made their voices louder than those of the people of NYC.
Lets black them out next time there's a power shortage.
We shouldn't have to suffer because of their selfishism.
Maybe those NIMBY's will change their mind when their train gets stuck in a river tunnel when the power goes out.
All of this in today's (Saturday's) Daily News at www.mostnewyork.com
The owner of the Wok & Roll chain is interested in the [Wendy's] property.
According to the article here he purchased the building on 2 February.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, he did purchase it. I'm not suprised, I knew Wendy's has a fear of that building, whereas Chinese people know how to move on.
I'll have to wait 18 more months till I step off the 7 and get a frostee. :-(
Then again Flushing may be so bad in 18 months I may not go there anymore. Another fashion store closed right by the NW 7 train entrance on Roosevelt/Main.
It's a wacky place. You got garbage, fire engines, and animals all around (of the 2 legged kind), then you go into some places (like the Sheraton LGA) and you see rich chinese people looking at expensive jewlery. I see alot of fancy cars like Mercedes and BMW in Flushing as well.
Flushing is liked a "jeweled" toilet! :-0
Chinatown is a much, much better place. For railfans, and "chinafans".
Chinatown-home to the B,D,Q and N,R and 6 trains. What a choice of equipment! And mystical girls as well.
It's a wacky place. You got garbage, fire engines, and animals all around
Maybe we should tell the fire engines to stop going to Flushing.
If it burns down, it won't be there for you to complain about.
Maybe you can submit your plans for a worker's (worker=people who have a job) utopia when it's time to rebuild.
I see alot of fancy cars like Mercedes and BMW in Flushing as well.
It's nice to know that there are streets in Flushing. I was surprised, I thought it was a pedestrian mall all this time.
And mystical girls as well
Have you ever actually talked or asked for any of these women's phone numbers? Or is it just something you can do with a website or a magazine?
Then again Flushing may be so bad in 18 months I may not go there anymore. Another fashion store closed right by the NW 7 train entrance on Roosevelt/Main.
It's a wacky place. You got garbage, fire engines, and animals all around (of the 2 legged kind), then you go into some places (like the Sheraton LGA) and you see rich chinese people looking at expensive jewlery. I see alot of fancy cars like Mercedes and BMW in Flushing as well.
Flushing is liked a "jeweled" toilet! :-0
It can't be too bad ... Federated is converting the Stern's to a Macy's, not closing it completely. A big company like Federated must have some faith in the 'hood.
Yeah, at least they have some sense. There is money in Flushing, alot of suburban yuppie asians shop there. Macy's will do well.
[Chinatown-home to the B,D,Q and N,R and 6 trains. ]
And the always forgotten J,M,Z
Arti
I knew I was forgetting something!!
[I'm not suprised, I knew Wendy's has a fear of that building, whereas Chinese people know how to move on.]
Did you ever stop to realize that NO CHINESE were involved in the shooting? If they hadn't been in Flusing long why would they have a fear of moving in, since they might not have a frame of reference in the shooting incident?
BMTman
Have you stopped to think that the Wendy's in Flushing was franchised? For all you know, the owner was a Chinese man who lived in Flushing. There could be any number of reasons why it was never reopened. Perhaps, by golly, it didn't make any money.
I don't know about anyone else, but I've never known anyone who missed a single fast food location as much as you do. There are thousands of Wendy's out there, surely there is another location in the NYC metro area. Frostys are good but man, get over it.
Speaking of Wendy's, my friends and I went to one this weekend, and I ordered the 99 cent 5 piece chicken nuggets and the dude gave me 7 of them! Hell Yeah!!!
Once I got 6 instead of 5 chicken nuggets, and this was at the Flushing Wendy's. Let me tell you it did very well, lines were always long, sometimes it was hard to find a table. The demand is there, just someone's own prejudice was in the way. If Wendy's was open right now, I'm sure many of you would like to share in just 2% of the money they'd make daily.
Remember, watch out though, in Manhattan and other parts of Tri-state area some Wendy's rip you off with premium prices.
We've already discussed this AD NAUSEUM.
Wendy's did not reopen because there would be too many bad memories from the shooting.
Even in the suburbs where you say that the Wendy's would have reopened, when the same thing happens, the building is DEMOLISHED and not just renovated.
You can talk and talk and talk and talk. But why don't you just get off of your welfare recipient butt and do something about it. Maybe you should actually work, make money, but the building and reopen the Wendy's.
Of course not. You'd rather be on the dole and just ride the subway all day.
i suppose this is a relatively free forum, in which john can post his feelings about things, and you can continue your personal attacks on people who say things that you disagree with... what's amusing is how poorly you respond to any perceived criticisms of yourself...
however, that is not unique to you, as many people who feel free to attack others are very sensitive to any criticism directed toward them... kind of sad, isn't it??
what's amusing is how poorly you respond to any perceived criticisms of yourself...
Unless you can point me to a specfic reference showing otherwise, I have never responded sensitively to any criticisms about me unless they involved my age.
At the same time, I responded sensitively to criticism about ANYONE, not just myself, if they were motivated by age.
Ahhh, it all makes sense now. You want it to reopen because you got hooked up with extra food. Can't blame you for that!
Powerplants should go in down around newtown creek, maybe where that old phelps dodge plant was - (ie: in the middle of nowhere). To build another power plant in a neighborhood that already has 2, on prime real estate that's suppose to be developed soon, is simply stupid. It's not about NIMBYism, there's plenty of places (not too far away) where another power plant would fit right in and be welcomed.
Maybe they should level a few of them strip clubs around queens plaza and put it there. I doubt many people would complain about that...
Build it NUCULAR!!!
Or perhaps Nuclear. Don't think "nucular" power has been invented yet.
Yes it has! It's pronounced NUCULAR dammit.
Yup, it's pronouced that way, but how many words in the English language aren't pronouced Fonetically?
While I pronouce it the way you spell it, the dictionary says that both "new-clear" and "nucular" are correct ways of pronoucing it.
You don't get it.
It's a Simpsons joke.
Oh, I dont watch The Simpsons that often.
Microsoft is coming out with a train simulator? COOL!!!!!!!! Is there a simulator out now?
There are a lot of "train" simulators out there. Look for Train Master 4.0 or even freeware Mechanik. Search for their websites.
Tomorrow the family and I are leaving for eight days in Los Angeles. Eight completely offline days, though if I'm lucky I might get to ride the Metro a bit (no Angel's Flight, alas).
This means I won't have an opportunity, for over a week, to gripe and complain about all the things I hate. So I guess I'll have to take advantage of this opportunity to get one more complaint in. I hate:
Ronkonkoma commuters with their suit-covered anuses
Upper West Side limousine liberals
Hillary
The editorial staff of the Times
The Second Avenue subway debacle
Unibody construction
Medicaid spending
Brain-dead LIRR management
New Yorkers who think the world ends at the Hudson
Hmmm ... did I forget anything or anyone?
Peter,
Have fun in LA. Are you going to railphan with subtalk's most notorious photographer who lives out there? -Nick
Hey, what about me? Pete, if you can read this message, look me up in California. I live in Arcadia and my name is in the phone book.
>>> my name is in the phone book. <<<
As "# 4 Sea Beach Fred"?
Tom
Knowing Fred, I'll bet he has "Sea Beach" vanity license plates.:-)
No Steve, not yet. But I am going to get them very soon. You sort of have me read, but, then again, you did give me my handle. So if anyone could be able to read me, it should be you.
If you do take out Sea Beach plates, see how long it takes before someone figures out what that means. It was almost nine years before anyone recognized what 8AVEXP meant, and it took a Columbia University alumnus to do it!
How many characters does California allow on license plates, BTW? I'd try to work the numeral 4 in somewhere, say 4SEABCH, for example.
It takes seven and once again you hit it on the head. Are we blood brothers or what? That is exactly what the license plate is going to have on it----4SEABCH, and if they aren't sure about it I'm going to let them know ahead of time what it means. I think that would keep the little kid in me existing for a longer period oftime. You're a good buddy Steve.
I guess you could say we're blood brothers. After all, we both have ties with the N and the Sea Beach, even though the A is #1 in my book.
Colorado plates have had 7 characters for the past several years. They're going back to 6 now that our plates have been revamped. Everybody's getting new plates over the next few years. Those of us who have vanity plates will be allowed to keep our combinations.
I have been think of new Virginia Plates either Q2AveP(There is no Ave P station though but it is the nearest ave to Kings Hwy Station) of QBWYEXP OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT
No no Bob----let it read 1BGTNEX or BGTNEXP. That would be better, or maybe 1DQEXP. How to those sound?
I used to live in Woodland Hills and Santa Monica, ex-girlfriend in San Dimas. Small world!!!!!
Small world for sure. You were a Californian and moved to New York? Isn't it supposed to be the other way around, or were you just here for a job and a better opportunity developed back East? Or were you just homesick? Giving up Woodland Hills and a girlfriend in San Dimas seems a lot to give up, especially for fellow Italian Stallion.
My company was putting up some Class "A" towers in Downtown LA, around Wilshire.
I transferred out there for about 14 months, loved it. I came back with the job, but still go back twice a year. If something comes up, I will go back for good.
I used to be on the san diego fwy everyday, and the hollywood fwy, the only thing I did NOT like about L.A. :)
I am a native New Yorker, and was a transplant Italian. Not many Italians in Woodland Hills or for that matter, most of Los Angeles! I could not get the food I wanted! My ma sent me FedEx with dry ice my cabonarna, marinana and cabonzell!!
Drive around enough and you can find some places where native New Yorkers can satisfy their food cravings, but the key word is drive, and the way the freeways can jam up even on weekend aftertoons makes you think twice before hopping in the car for a 20-mile jaunt just for dinner.
At least the commuter rail system out there has gotten better in the last decade, though things are so spread out now there's no way it can ever support more than a fraction of the commuter traffic.
That was one of the things I missed moving to Montana..ethnic foods. In 1977 there was pizza[with factorymade frozen crust] "Italian" bread that was just plain white bread in a different shape...no real crust, "Jewish"rye that was like cardboard, bagels that were too spongy to cut it. But things are improving and we're getting good pizza among other things, maybe thanks to the California invasion. See Fred, some good comes out of everything!
Racially I am "none of the above", I'm a 6 or 7 way mix of Northern European but FOOD unites a lot of us.One thing you see more of here than in NYC is Mexican food. Oh yes, we have some good Chinese too now.
On to Mr. Lee's post a possible duplication of the Old Pacific Electric or the retention thereof was what LA needed. It went a lot of places, no doubt had more ROUTE [not track?] miles than NYCT, single or two car operation was the rule. Not the density and everything spread out but it would have done the job.
Thankfully Montana freeways are normally not crowded or crawling. I couldn't drive in a lot of big cities, and wouldn't if I could help it.
Fred, you never were a stallion the closest you got was being a jack, opps that is a Democratic emblem.
And after your trip you'll hate Californians too.
You'll feel like the older Montana generation when Californians started taking over western and south central Montana? Maybe not. It takes all kinds of people to make a world as I found out the hard way.Guess one plus to remember is that the New York area does have their share of regular working people too. They just don't get the recognition. BUT I do know what you mean. Enjoy your trip.
Hey Big Ed: Have your forgotten that your blood brother Sea Beach Fred is a Californian. I sometimes wonder how we get such a bad reputation. We're really cool, laid back people. We live and let live.
No sooner had I gone to read my post and se e it there were replies I thought...omigosh..Sea Beach Fred is a Californian. And sure enough there you were. Watch your lip, Ed haha. We have enough in common besides rails from reading your posts I wouldn't worry about it.
Blood brothers of course, memories of D types on the Sea Beach Express; High V's and Low-V's on the IRT.
It's like people from an area can say the same things just like people of a race, nationality, or religion can say about some of their own kind....oh, THOSE people, you know what I mean.
That's why I said the things Pete mentioned weren't ALL Noo Yawkers.Keep well! Best wishes; Ed.
I guess that means we're blood brothers as well, what with my memories of the R-1/9s on the D and the IND in general. Naturally, the R-10s on the A go without saying.
Yeh right, like the bumper stickers on sale in Venice Beach say. CURITOSY MY ASS, THIS IS LA
That's for sure. They make New Yorkers look like saints.
zman179: Hey that's not kosher. I'm a Californian and as Brighton Beach Bob can tell you I'm a warm and fuzzy kind of guy. I ooze kindness and compassion. That was not nice of you to say that about us. Besides, Hillary and Bill don't live out here.
The transplants such as yourself I had no problems with. It's the natives that make me wanna grab a gun.
I knew of a few like you were talking about when I first moved out here. They didn't like New Yorkers and showed it. I said screw them and made friends with tranplants from other states and had a blast. You know what? Many of the natives I knew no longer live in California but have moved to Nevada, Arizona, Montana, and Oregon. The transplants now rule the state. No kidding. The governor is from the Bronx, one of the Senators is from Brooklyn, and a former governor was from upstate New York. This is a real cool place now, so you can unload your gun once and for all.
Now that I read this post from you I see the rest of the story. Geez, another Davis (the governor) a Bronx native? Unreal!
Some favor you did us in Montana...ha ha..all in fun.
You need (or do you get it) Back In The Bronx magazine. An occasional article on the rails in the Bronx too. Indeed a lot of ex-Bronxites in California as well as Florida. For me I need some winter..as long as it isn't too severe.
That's what Southern California lacks: seasons. It's either hot or hot. And the winter is called the "rainy season". Rain isn't a friggin season. Anyway they should rename it "The non-brush fire season".
>>> Southern California lacks: seasons <<<
Of course we have four seasons out here in Southern California. They are called Earthquake, Drought, Fire, and Mudslide. :-)
Tom
Folks do love to get away from upstate New York's four seasons:
Winter, Still Winter, Almost Winter, and Construction.
Back here, when the earth moves, you know it was a REALLY good date. :)
I don't know what got into Old Tom with that short diatribe about Southern California. We do have those problems but they don't occur all the often, and our climate is as good as it gets. We do sweat out the potential of earthquakes, but the other things don't happen too frequently, thank God. It still is a great place to live.
In Northern California we have earthquakes, flooding from excessive rains in the winter, Barry Bonds outbursts, and idiot ideas from ultra-progressive environmentists.
ScottinSF
Yup, eathquakes, riots wild fires, walking down Broadway in LA and feel like you are in a 3rd world country where English is the Foreign Language.
I find that statement very interesting coming from a confirmed liberal like you. It doesn't seem to bother some conservative that I know. Hmmmmm. I wonder! Those immigrants have to live someplace, and one day their children and granchildren will be middle class an very Americanized, and hopefully my party under Bush will begin the process to bring most of them into the Republican Party like we have done with the Cubans and Nicaraguans.
Yup, eathquakes, riots wild fires, walking down Broadway in LA and feel like you are in a 3rd world country where English is the Foreign Language.
As I noted in my "Greetings from California" post, we found that Broadway in Los Angeles is, in fact, a pretty bleak place. I'm not so sure that the problem is immigration as much as economic decline - the street was full of abandoned buildings, movie theaters in particular.
And to think at one time, LA's most heavily travelled streetcar route, the P line, went down Broadway.
I don't know what got into Old Tom with that short diatribe about Southern California. We do have those problems but they don't occur all the often, and our climate is as good as it gets. We do sweat out the potential of earthquakes, but the other things don't happen too frequently, thank God. It still is a great place to live.
>>>Folks do love to get away from upstate New York's four seasons:
Winter, Still Winter, Almost Winter, and Construction.
Selkirk: LOL!! Truly. I understand perfectly. :)
I used to say: I'm dreamin' of a white Christmas (rare as silence itself in NYC)
Now, I say: I'm dreadin' yet another white Christmas, and a white Easter...and Thanksgiving...and perhaps even Halloween next year!
-cordially,
turnstiles
There's always Southern California. Here you can have a white Christmas, a sunny and warm Christman, a beach Christmas, or a desert Christmas like they have in the Holy Land. We have everything out here, and, for that matter, we grow the best fruits and vegetables of any place on earth. Why McDonald's and In and Out Burgers even use California potatoes, which are the best grown and that includes Idaho, and our most popularly exported rice comes from the Sacramento Valley, and not Arkansas or Louisiana.
In and Out Burgers? Sounds like another name for White Castle, if you know what I mean. Nudge, nudge.:-)
White Castle? You have them in Colorado? I haven't seen one since I left New York over 46 years ago. We used to have White Castle and White Tower back then. I often wondered what happened to them, just as I wondered what ever happened to LaRosa macaroni products, and Reids and Horton's Ice creams.
You must remember Rheingold Beer, Pabst Blue Ribbon Beer, Ruppert Beer, Schaefer Beer (ENY's favorite beer...brewery next door), Bohack's Supermarkets, the Fox and Paramount Movie Theaters, Joe's Restaurant, Junior's, Ebbits Field, Steeplechase Park, Ebigner's Cakes, The Brooklyn Eagle, Adleman's Deli, Nathan's Coney Island....for the food/beer items, these are hard or impossible to get in California, including White Castle, which is only in the eastern half of the nation. They DO however have frozen White Castle's, which my folks sent out to me when I was in Woodland Hills :)
And don't forget Piels light beer, which was not light, nor was Thromers Pine White Label Beer. Is Ballentine, and their stupid three rings of purity, body and flavor, still around? I hated that beer because it sponsored the Yankees, along with White Owl cigars which I wouldn't touch with a l0 foot pole. You brought back some neat memories with those products, but I still don;t know what happened to LaRosa and their macaroni products.
White Owl was a Mets sponsor in the early 70s.
We don't have any White Castle restaurants in Colorado, but their frozen patties are available at grocery retailers.
Piels I myself remember, 50 cents for glass, $1 for a stein :)
Ballentine I have not heard of....I think LaRosa got bought out by another company.
Any more memories? :)
Piasan, just give me time. The old Dago war horse here is full of nostalgia. Believe me, I'll come up with some, and if you beat me to the punch, heave ho and let me know. Have a great day.
How abouts FWIL Lundy's in Sheepshead Bay?
I heard Lundy's reopened. They had the best sea food in the world, and even I enjoyed it. I used to hate fish when I was a kid, but it was different at Lundy's Those giant prawns, wow!. Today I love sea food, and if you can believe it, my mouth is starting to water for a nice big piece of cod or haddock. Ok, thenb pollack, or halibut, anything. I also miss those candy stores with the soda fountains. I don't even know if there are any in New York anymore.
There's a diner that calls itself the Lexington Candy Shop on Lexington and 83rd which has a soda fountain. When I ate there, I had a hamburger and an EGG CREAM.
And the phone number printed on the menu is the old style: BUtterfield 8 - NNNN
Pork: Listen carefully. Tell me exactly where it is, and how to exactly get there. I want to drink an egg cream and sit at a New York soda fountain again. Find out and please let me know, and if anyone knows of any others please clue me in. I got so frustrated in '99 when visited Bay Ridge. I went for blocks and blocks and couldn't fine one. There used to be dozens there in the 50's.
I just told you! It was the first three words of the sentence:
"Lexington and 83rd"
I got that message after this one you answered. I just printed it so I wouldn't forget it. You're a gentleman and a scholar.
Sea Beach,
All I know is if you want the Giants-Mets game here, you'd need lots of $$$$$ to buy them.
ScottinSF
Hey, Fred, you can even take the 4 to get there, even though it's on the Lex.:-)
Now Steve, you know that hits a raw nerve. Yes I'm nostalgic to the point of absurdity sometimes, but to me the #4 train will always be the Sea Beach and not that cheap imitation called the Lexington.
In that case, you can take the 5.:-)
Of course. We who were around "then" wouldn't have thought of that train as the "4". To us it was simply the Woodlawn train [even after the numbers]...likewise White Plains, Broadway, Pelham, etc.
With tongue in cheek..of course. Even if later a migrant to Brooklyn and then West, I remain born and raised in the Bronx.
cheers yes, the 4-Sea Beach express was fun when we went to Coney!
big ed-irt man.
The #4 train is the Lexington. Even Sea Beach knows that! :-)
ScottinSF
I know.
Sea Beach,
Lundy's did reopen. I was walking thru my old 'hood last month during my vacation. I didn't go in but it was definitely open for business.
ScottinSF
Lundy's is still very good, but how could you forget the biscuits?!? Those were 1/2 of the meal....I try to get there 1x a month and have the broiled lobster and some steamers....
We still have some candy stores with the soda fountains, I stop in to play lotto and have a malted or an egg cream, it's called Hinsch's in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, and they still give you the metal Hamilton House mixer cup to finish off :)
Oh boy. It feels like the Good old days.
Dominick Bermudez.
Oh boy. It feels like the Good old days when I read this.
Dominick Bermudez.
Good old days, your're 12, no offense but just what do you describe as "good old days"
Peace,
ANDEE
For me, the good old days are NOW.
Hopefully they won't stay the good old days, otherwise I'll wax nostalgic like those Rustbird fans (kill me now).
Re;Keep the R-142's Posted by Pork: The Other Gray Meat on Sat Feb 24 19:26:00 2041 in response to Trash the 142's posted by Train DudeIII on Sat Feb 24 17:44:40 2041
As a young porker I very much enjoyed riding the then new R142's and, as I matured, they were there, likf an old friend. and now they want to replace them with some soulless Zpto R329 with telepathic station announcements I say No, save the money and use it to build the Second Ave Subway they've been talking about for the last hundred years. NO R329's.
Telepathic station announcements? Is that to be in compliance with the 2032 ADA Amendments, so the deaf can hear them?
There won't be deaf people in 2032 if there are telepathic announcements.
Ballentine's defunct, but did get something of a name revival in the mid-1990s when the writers of "Frasier" picked it as Martin Crane's favorite beer (even though AFAIK, it never was sold on the West Coast, where the show is supposed to take place). Anyway, even that died out when they had a episode last season where Marty was mourning the impending demise of his brand.
I think Ballentine sponsored the Yankees until 1966, then for one season they were sponsored by Kreuger-Pilsner (awful name, but when they company went out of buisness they sold the formula and the beer is now known as Miller Lite), and after that, Schaefer during the late 60s and early 70s, which probably made a few Dodger fans turn over in their graves.
Ballentine became a Mets sponsor in the mid-70s after Rheingold went out of business. Remember those Rheingold commercials about the 10-minute head?
How about this:
My beer is Rheingold the dry beer
Think of Reingold whenever you buy beer.
It's not bitter, not sweet,
extra dry flavor treat,
always ask for dry Rheingold Beer.
BTW, in Chris Rock's new movie, Down to Earth, he and his friend are swiggling bottles of Rheingold. I guess you can get them if you are a celebrity.
BTW, in Chris Rock's new movie, Down to Earth, he and his friend are swiggling bottles of Rheingold. I guess you can get them if you are a celebrity.
Actually, I believe Rheingold is still being produced. It might not be the original company, but instead a new one that bought the rights to the name.
Not recently but in the last 20 years at one time or another I've seen Ballantine and Schaefer here in Montana..the same thing you describe. Unfortunately there were a low-price line and IMHO a poor beer. Not that most American beer is that good anyway, but some are.
The way I remember their commercials during Mets games, it went:
My beer is Rheingold the dry beer,
Ask for Rheingold whenever you buy beer.
Rheingold's head stays so high,
Rheingold's brewed extra dry,
Won't you try extra dry Rheingold beer?
Hal Linden used to do the voice-over for their commercials. At least it sounded like Hal Linden. A few commercials were redubbed with someone else's voice later on, but the scripts were the same. One of them was based on the theme, "Ever have a rainy day ruin your great plans?" Naturally, the first shot was an empty Shea Stadium in a downpour accompanied by, "Maybe you had tickets for that big doubleheader. Uh-huh, it's a washout."
Speaking of the Mets, if they trade for Gary Sheffield, that mal-content and team cancer par excellance, they will have made a tragic mistake. If they trade Piazza or Alfonzo for him, GM Phillips had better run for his life because I'm coming after him.
I am hoping the Mets get Sheffield....it would make a wonderful acquisition!
ScottinSF
That's all they need - another Eddie Murray.
...and if the same people who blocked any new power plant construction for the last decade get California to start tearing down its dams to restore the natural beauty of the 19th Century, you can start trying some of those Idaho potatoes and bayou rice crops again :-)
I only eat California produced food. Well, not really, but if I have a choice in the matter I do. Notice the difference between California and Florida oranges? Easy. California oranges are orange, Florida's are yellow and they have to spray them orange.
California oranges are orange, Florida's are yellow and they have to spray them orange.
But at least the Florida ones are edible :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Uh Oh, here we go. A good retort by you. This is true, however. California oranges are better for eating, while Florida oranges, they tell me, is better for juice. But our Valencia and Naval oranges makes pretty good juice, too. Well at any rate, you owed me one and got me for my bagging on the Confederacy. Good show.
Uh Oh, here we go. A good retort by you. This is true, however. California oranges are better for eating, while Florida oranges, they tell me, is better for juice. But our Valencia and Naval oranges makes pretty good juice, too. Well at any rate, you owed me one and got me for my bagging on the Confederacy. Good show.
>>>There's always Southern California. Here you can have a white Christmas, a sunny and warm Christman, a beach Christmas,
or a desert Christmas like they have in the Holy Land.
Fred: Sounds very tempting. I cannot say that I never thought about it, but I'd miss New York. Also, I'd miss the Queens subways (the beloved #7, and used to take the N regularly) almost as much as you would the Sea Beach at the other end of the N line! :)
>>>Why McDonald's and In and Out Burgers even use California potatoes, which are
the best grown and that includes Idaho,...
Fred: I'd be a little more careful about saying this one - those are fighting words to Idaho people...and you know that they have those militias out there...:)
-cordially,
turnstiles
Right Turnstiles, but if you don't tell those militia people what I said I certainly won't either. We'll let it be our dirty little secret. And you are right about the subways. If truth be told I always miss the subways, and, in fact, often have dreams of riding them, and even missing a train once in a while. Tell you what, come out and visit to your heart's content, stay as long as you can, then when you get a fill of my state, you can go back and ride those trains. This way you have the best of both worlds.
>>>There's always Southern California. Here you can have a white Christmas, a sunny and warm Christman, a beach Christmas,
or a desert Christmas like they have in the Holy Land.
Fred: Sounds very tempting. I cannot say that I never thought about it, but I'd simply miss New York. Also, I'd miss the Queens subways (the beloved #7, and used to take the N regularly) almost as much as you would the Sea Beach at the other end of the N line! :)
>>>Why McDonald's and In and Out Burgers even use California potatoes, which are the best grown and that includes Idaho,...
Fred: I would be a little more careful about saying this one - those are fighting words to Idaho people...and you know that they have those militias out there...:)
-cordially,
turnstiles
Yes California, the land of Fruits and Nuts
Land of fruits, eh? Oh oh, sounds like a little gay bashing to me, my friend. As for nuts, just remember this, your subway buddy is a little nutty himself but you claim me as your friend. But I know you didn't mean it the way it came out. We grow a lot of fruit, and we have a lot of strange people out here. To that I plead guilty.
They're not all fruits and nuts They have Sea Beach Fred and Reagan New power plants, including my favorite type, Nuclear, are on the way in California.
i agree with 2 of your complaints.......the rest, i do not think so!! BUT ,..!! what are your loves-likes ?? did not list them !!!
rush limbaugh ??? !!!
"rush limbaugh ??? !!!"
LOL...being out in LA, don't forget Dr. Laura! -Nick
The train with the rudest people is the E. It's hard to get the window on that train, and there's alot of pushing and door holding.
The F is better than the E.
So what is the general opinion on the rudest trains in the system??
The E is worse than the 7 in my opinion. Also there seems to be alot of homeless on the E. I guess because of the all underground run and bench style seats.
Too bad though, because the E is a cool run from a railfan point of view.
Well, I hear the #7 can get pretty rude when this one guy from Atlanta is in town to play the Mets, but otherwise I'll take your word for it. -Nick
Well it doesn't matter if this one guy from Atlanta is here. There's always alot of rude people on the #7 particularly those who rushes to fight for one damn seat.
Well there are lot of rude people (mostly yuppies) who seem to be on rush hour expresses. Even asian folks (which usually are kind) can be quite rude on the 7 train.
I swear it seems like the asian people in Flushing act like they come from a totally different place than those in Chinatown*.
*Actually they do. Most asian people in Flushing are professionals from Taiwan and S.Korea. In Chinatown, most are low and middle wage workers from mainland China,esp the southeast provinces.
And the 7 train is littered with Taiwan based chinese publications such as the World Journal. Sometimes you can find a whole paper intact, left on a seat.
The E is a bum magnet because there are no relays and there is no direct yard access at either end, so there is less chance of them getting kicked off at a terminal. It is also the only no-relay line with both terminals underground, so even if they do get kicked off and it's cold or raining they aren't affected. The C and R are all underground (except the R when it crosses the Bay Ridge line) but both have relays. The J has both terminals underground but it has relays at both Chambers and Broad.
Plus the R uses R46's most of the time, so no benches.
I don't like benches. They are uncomfortable and attract homeless.
All trains should have bucket seats.
I'm avoiding the E now though, the homeless problem is getting real bad on the E.
I like buckets because I can fit in them perfectly, but one size DOES NOT fit all.
I'm rather small so I fit in buckets just fine. It's those benches I can't stand, you go sliding all around. Especially on the R40s.
The R-40 benches suck. It's like trying to sit between two perpendicular slabs of stone. Almost no contouring. The other cars w/bench seating are good. I enjoy the bucket seats though since I fit into them nicely. Remember the unintended bucket seating on the old LIRR coaches? Try and sit by a window and you practically go right through. Similar problem on the shore side of unrehabbed MNRR Shoreliner Is and unrehabbed NJT Comet Is.
The Bench seats are much more comfortable than bucket, in rush hours on the 62s you can end up sitting on a divider, i always stand while riding on those cars. The longitudinal seating of the 44,46,68, and 68A are nice for the window view(it is fun to slide on those cars)
Don't the rehabbed 62s have benches?
Arti
The R-62 was never rehabbed.
What about the new black floors etc.
Arti
The trains with the benches aren't the same as the ones with the black floors.
Black floor trains were damaged for one reason or another. The only train that I know of that had its floor replaced was the one involved in the 1994 bombing where some idiot had a homemade bomb in his backpack and it blew up (while he was still wearing it!).
I've seen benches on black floor trains, the same color scheme but no bucket seats.
Arti
There are only 4 cars like that. 1587,88,89, and either 86 or 90. It started as 1586-1591 (6 cars) but slowly they've been replacing them with regular ones (plenty of those from transverse cab conversions). When I first rode the set it was exactly the same color scheme as the regular ones. Now, you can tell the benches have been moved around so you have yellow next to yellow, red with red. I liked the original arrangement better. They're replacing the floors on all the 62s, they must have just gotten this set because I never saw them with black floors.
Did that qualify for a Darwin Award?
No.
"What about the new black floors etc."
The new black flooring replaces the old tan linoleum floor that are bubbling up and creating a possible tripping hazard. Tripping hazards mean lawsuits, so redo the floors.
The R-62's are receieving new floors and that's it. The R-32's and some R-68A's are getting the new floors. On the R-32's, the floors seem spongy. It was revealed on this board that the subflooring which is plywood is being replaced by stainless steel.
Bill "Newkirk"
I wouldn't call the E rude. I think the customers are generally well behaved. I used to hear more complaints from the Middle Village M train crowd. Seldom was I extolled with: "Have a nice day" from the M line crowd upon leaving the cab, yet I do hear an occasional "Have a nice day" or a simple "Thank you" upon leaving the cabs of the E at WTC or Parsons. I freely admit that the door holding is out of control at many stations on the line and that frequently causes me to be late. I don't like the idea of having to visit the crew reporting center beyond the 24 hour booth at least twice a day because upon returning we have to use the public stairs to go to the platform and get snide remarks from the public that I am walking down the stairs too slow! But remember, the E carries a tremendous number of people and that kind of stuff has to occur. The homeless is a big problem for the workers because we have to smell them all day, and run the risk of literally getting sick. And the bleeding heart homeless advocates stifle the TA when they want to eject them. The TA is going about it all wrong. That $1.50 is an admission charge, which means the subway, beyond that turnstile, is not a public place like the street or a park. Therefore, they should be ejected from the system at WTC and Parsons by the police. I'm sorry if they have no place to go, but those of you who think otherwise, do you want them around your workplace all day?
There are so many homeless in the subway lately, I bring alchohol swabs to cleanse my face and hands when I get off. Not to mention a blast of hot air and scalding tea to drink when I get home.
It's so disgusting.
There doesn't seem to be anyone in the media noticing how bad the problem is. I've been riding the trains just for 2 years. It used to be a year ago I'd come across a homeless guy once in a while, but lately it seems every train I ride has some smelly, loud homeless person. Especially on the IND/BMT, the E takes the award for that.
Fortunately the 7 line has the least amount of homeless, even though it can be packed with migrants there's no loud homeless guy harassing everybody.
Oh, you'll LOVE the #1 line John.
"There are so many homeless in the subway lately"
Give it a few more weeks. Once spring comes, you can have your E train back.
CG
Yeah, it's yet another reason I can't stand winter in NY. The homeless, as well the rats, make the subways their home.
The homeless, as well the rats, make the subways their home.
There's a difference?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Then stop complaining and move to America's Whang or something.
Have any of you considered the possibility that they may be railfans enjoying the "Re-route" of the "E" through the 63rd St. tunnel and have exhausted themselves to the point of collapsing?
Do the right thing, Throw your arm around your brother or sisters' shoulders, carry him/her to a refreshment stand. Nurture that railfans mental and physical needs. One day it may be YOU.
avid
Path has almost no homeless people hanging around, I'm sure the PATH police (undetectable, invisible force) boot them on sight. While on the A the other day a T/O was advised that if he should see anyone panhandling or otherwise asking for donations on the train (dancing, instrument playing, etc) to call it in. What was it, zero tolerance day?
In the early AM the E is horrible, sometimes there's a homeless guy in every car. They always stay at the car ends, deterring you from attempting to switch cars.
All homeless should be removed from every area within fare control. Last weekend at Lex/63rd a naked man and woman were having a loud argument while running down the platform, and a few months ago I remember a homeless person taking a bath under a leaky pipe at 50st. We should either eject them from the system or throw them all into the lower level of 42st.
And if you guys elect Mark Green mayor the homeless will be given carte blanche to mine the subways, just as SF mayor Willie Brown has done for the homeless there. The only difference is Brown is capable and knows what he's doing for the most part, while Green is clueless. I watch this guy on tv and am amazed by his shallowness.
Yeah if Green gets in as mayor the homeless will be allowed to over-run the city.
The E is so bad I'm avoiding it altogether. It's like one rolling homeless shelter.
Dear Pork: I assume by your current postings that you didn't decide to leave SubTalk after all, and am glad for it. Because if some of us feel unwelcome or unecessary, than ALL of us actually are!! I posted a message when your resignation/leaving posting was put up several days ago and don't know if you got it. . .Basically it said don't go and I'm sorry if I 've ever gotten a little terse witcha in the past, which I still am. Thanks. sincerely, Thomas :)
You don't have to be tense with me anymore, I'm truly sorry!
And I put for a few hours in white text after my leaving message. I fulfilled my promise, I left for a few hours.
Hey Pork, I'd rather argue with you, sometimes call you a squirt, and give you a hard time (as you give me) rather than not have you on Subtalk. I think it was dumb on your part that you even considered packing it in. Glad you didn't.
Pigs and Sea Beach are two of my favorite Subtalkers. W. should give Sea Beach a job in Transportation to keep that Democrat Mineta honest.
Yo, Pigs why did you consider leaving the SubTalk family?
I never did! Just look at the message:
Re: Porky will be leaving SubTalk - Details (196448)
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Re: Porky will be leaving SubTalk - Details
Posted by Pork: The Other White Meat on Thu Feb 15 07:58:09 2001, in response to Porky will be leaving SubTalk, posted by Pork: The Other White Meat on Thu Feb 15 05:44:57 2001.
It's true. Pork, the most influential Subtalker of our time will be leaving this board, and NO NAME CHANGE. The person behind the handle will not participate in Subtalk for a few hours
Responses
Re: Porky will be leaving SubTalk - Details - David Pirmann - Web Site Host - Thu Feb 15 09:12:43 2001
Re: Porky will be leaving SubTalk - Details - Peter Rosa - Thu Feb 15 09:24:31 2001
Re: Porky will be leaving SubTalk - Details - SUBWAYSURF - Thu Feb 15 09:42:36 2001
BTW, highlight the missing text.
ain't nuttin to be "tense" about, "Pork", and BTW-the word is "terse", which means kind of abrupt, mean, hostile, etc. I is jus gla' you is back, Massa!! Peace and God Bless, Thomas the Apologetic Subway Engine :)
P.S. Hey pigster, when you finally gonna take the plunge and hire on with NYCTA?
I left SubTalk for a little while too, cause it was just a few scant minutes till last call, but then I came back like half and hour later. . . .
Peace and Good Will, Free Love, Good Sex, Big $$$ to All, etc., etc., Thomas The R-17 Subway Engine WITH 12 WHEELS AND NOT 8!!!!!
I think the rudeness rating is subjective at best. What is it based on. Keep in mind that NYC is a 'melting pot' and people from all cultures mix on our trains. Take for example these rude behaviors:
People from some countries where the use of deoderant is not part of their daily hygiene.
Pushing and shoving is universal but is expected on some asian systems.
I'm told that the groping of females is commonplace on crowded Tokyo trains
Homelessness should not be considered rude.
Nor should lines where the women generally overflow a single bucket street.
I think that if you want to identify the 'rudest subway line, you first need to identify what behaviors are truly rude. Here is my list:
1) Chaining a bicycle to a stantion pole.
2) Eating on the train - not potatoe chips but things like fried chicken & fried rice or fried fish sandwhiches.
3) Changing a baby's diaper on the train.
4) Panhandling, singing for money, or selling.
5) Not controlling your children's behavior.
6) Loud and obnoxious behavior.
Anyone want to add to the list? Once the list is compiled, then you can get an idea of what line(s) should be considered the rudest.
BTW: Based on my criteria, I find the people who ride the LIRR to be ruder than those who ride the subways. Beer drinking, cell phone use, taking up seats with personal belongings or feet. deliderately blocking empty seats, smoking in the doorways, blocking the doorways, loud talking, (and the list goes on and on.
Yesterday at the busy Grand St station, I saw a young black guy standing with his bicycle at the turnstiles, with the bike sideways so it blocked 3 turnstiles simultaneously at the busy station. He was apparently oblivious to the people around him and was waiting for something or someone. Though this was outside of a train, I felt it is rude nevertheless (and being an a__h_le) to have bikes obstructing valuable space.
One thing I find pretty rude is when people remain standing in the doorways instead of moving away on a very busy station, blocking passenger flow in and out of the train. Again for me is it worth saving that spot as it is to fight over one damn seat?
Door holding is another one. Even worse is when the perpetrator asks people where the train is going while holding the doors like as if that is the last train to heaven.
One better. Last week,during the evening rush on the "A" a bike with what appeared to be a Rickshaw attachment. The attachment had the name or logo Pioneer.
Now NYCTA is hauling freight.
Cellphones light up when the "A' reaches Grant Ave and leaves the subway for abouve ground travel.
"Hello , yeah, I on the train. Where are you? I don't Know,Yeah , Yeah, Wait, talk louder, yeah thats Better, WHAT? HUH? WHAT? CALL ME BACK?
avid
Cell phones should be banned on all public transportation.
Personally everytime I see a cell phone I want to bash it with my foot. I hate those things!!
Well, since we know your fondness for repressive régimés that ban free speech...
Cell phones can be annoying, but banning them (without a compelling reason such as safety) would violate the Constitution.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
While I find loud users of cell phone rude, I would crush them beneath my heel or ban their use. Just don't look offended when all the people near stare and listen to your end of the conversation. After all, the user invited the listeners by speaking several decibels higher. There is NO privacy promised in a public transportation.
avid
"There is NO privacy promised in a public transportation."
Agreed, and it's foolish to discuss private matters on a cellphone. But neither is "peace and quiet" promised on public transport. A NYCTA car, LIRR car, or any other transit or commuter car is NOT!! an Amtrak sleeper! There are cellphone users who don't talk loudly and who are considerate of their fellow passengers (phoning from the vestibule, etc.). And there are people conversing, live and in person, who are just as loud and inconsiderate as the stereotypical cell-phone caller. Or do the live loud-mouths not count because they aren't on a cellphone and therefore class* sentiment isn't in the equation?!
Anyhow, I'm more surprised to find that cellphones work on the subway. Mine doesn't work on the CTA subways, or when I'm on a Metra train at Union Station until we clear the portal. Or are you talking about people using their phones strictly on the elevated portions of the system?
*I know cellphones are common and dirt-cheap now and have no class distinction. But a lot of the cruder anti-cell-phone b*tching that I've heard and read seems to presume cell-phoners are rich yuppies and therefore doubly *ssh*les in the "critic's" mind.
Clearing portals.
Just loud talk, I suspect its "Look at me and my new Toy talk" from the louder users.
avid
"Cell phones can be annoying, but banning them (without a compelling reason such as safety) would violate the Constitution."
While I usually agree with you, in this case, we're on opposite sides of the issue.
First, there may not be a compelling safety issue as such but there are enough questions about cell phone radiation that we should be, at least a little, concerned. Besides, with so much steel around us, there has to be much reflected energy 'bouncing around'.
Second, while there is a 'free speech' issue here, it's been long accepted that the government can regulate free speech once it is transmitted electronicly. Besides, we accept the ban on boom boxes in some public places because of the nuiscence factor. Is this so much of an extension of that?
it's been long accepted that the government can regulate free speech once it is transmitted electronicly.
That is the height of stupidity. Why has this been "accepted" and why, even then, was the Communications Decency Act declared unconstitutional?
Piglet, have you never heard of the FCC?
While the FCC has the right to regulate the manner in which cellular phone data is transmitted, it has no right to regulate what people talk about in those conversations.
The FCC also can't regulate the information transmitted through the internet.
And why the hell can the FCC regulate television and radio? I find it totally ridiculous that words have to bleeped out, and certain things have to be blurred out (other than faces of people who wish to remain anonymous). The FCC wasn't created for censorship, it was created to allow a feasible system of allocating radio frequencies. The same thing applies to television, cellular phones and sattelite.
And why the hell can the FCC regulate television and radio? I find it totally ridiculous that words have to bleeped out, and certain things have to be blurred out (other than faces of people who wish to remain anonymous). The FCC wasn't created for censorship, it was created to allow a feasible system of allocating radio frequencies. The same thing applies to television, cellular phones and sattelite.
Piggy, here we agree, however, you're fighting the wrong war in the wrong place. As for the regulation of the use of cell phones, while the FCC may not be able to regulate where they are used, we've seen that local government can - though I hasten to add that the Suffolk County law regarding cell phone use has yet to be tested in court.
People have a habit of standing in the doorways of the R44's. This is also true of rush hour LIRR electric trains. Hint...hint (similar design?)
Well according to your list the E train is the worst. The LIRR ranks as a close 2nd.
Oh boy.
RE: 'the melting pot'. When in rome, do as the romans do... While there's not a whole lot you can do about someone not showering (except give them dirty looks =) ), anyone who wants to grope women on a subway should be beaten and tossed in jail. as for pushing, it might be expected elsewhere, but it sure shouldn't become an accepted norm here.
Loud babies, changing babies, people selling things and *playing music* is pretty damn rude, but there's far worse out there. There used to be a guy who'd ride the N train with a big blue & white sign saying 'jesus is coming, repent' (I kid you not) - and he would chant that, over and over and over as loud as he could. Ignoring him was impossible.
On the baby note though, parents with strollers can be pretty damn rude, if not pretty damn dangerous.
Tourists taking lots of photos in a subway car, anyone?
Motormen who smoke in the cab are also up there on my list. It's rare, but it happens - and my god, when you get on the front car you KNOW what is going on. The smoke combined with the AC or something produces a smell so bad you either need to get off, or take a shower when you get home since the smell sticks to you.
and to sweaten the pot there's always cell phones...
Actually I've smelled cigarette smoke near the cab on quite a few occasions lately, most notably in the R46 cabs.
I've even seen it on the 7 line.
I also saw some tourist guy on the F last week who had his son holding doors for him. Had a camera around his neck too.
I really do hate the smoking in the cab. When the window of an R46 is uncovered, and you look out the cab window boy do you smell it.
Perhaps T/O's want to deter railfans?
On R44s, 46s and 68s, people will sit in the aisle seat and use the window seat for their packages- or just leave the window seat vacant. They couldn't care less that the car is packed with standees. All three days of this past busy shopping weekend, I rode the 'D' 'F', 'N' and 'R' past 34th Street, and this phenomeon could regularly be witnessed. This also occurs on commuter railroads and buses.
Just TRY asking the offending person to move their belongings off the seat, or to move aside ever so slightly so you may sit. Usually they play deaf, give a non-English-speaking blank look (even though they might be reading a newspaper or magazine in English), or have a Walkman on. That's the best-case scenario; there's always the chance you might get cursed out.
Blocking the doorway on the inside so that it's impossible to get on the train is old news. Now people getting OFF the train will stand motionless on the platform blocking the doorway while they try to figure out if this is their stop.
I've given up on the 7. I used to take it coming home at evening rush, and trying to switch to the N at Queens plaza usually entailed me having to practically assault many people just to get off the train - as not one of them seem to under you should let someone off the train first, and then get on... For contrast, the crowding is far worse on the 6, yet people will actually let you get off the train thus making it that tiny bit more civil...
I've traded them all in for the longer run to and from work all the way on the N or R - and usually get myself a seat in the process...
-Joe
I admit while crowding on the Lexington line is severe, there seems to be a sense of "rail" rage when riding the 7 at rush hour.
How come the R10 never ran on the N & R lines because I look through the R10's photo section I did not see any R10 on the N or R lines spoted on one of those pictures. Was there a reason why R10's didn't run on the N & R lines?
Most photographs and slides of the R-10's in anyone's collection are likely to show them as to where they were likely assigned to in regular service, such as the IND Division based routes and lines (especially on the "A" route during its heyday), but also the BMT Eastern Division routes 1954-1955. There were supposedly a few rare sightings of the R-10's operating on the "N" when some of them were based from Jamaica Yard, where they held mostly base service on the "GG" line 1977-1985, but no one has yet to turn up a slide or photograph of any of the R-10's operating on the "N" and "R" lines in regular service (if in indeed they had provided service there).
The only exception to this rule is when on three separate occasions when (in October 1976, June 1986 and October 1989) when E.R.A. chartered fantrips operated on many BMT Southern Division routes (such as the Sea Beach and Brighton) and even Eastern Division lines (like the Jamaica and Broadway-Brooklyn as prime examples). As a matter of fact, the first R-10 trip in 1976 actually operated to/from Ditmars Boulevard-Astoria and via the BMT Broadway Subway and the south side of the Manhattan Bridge.
-William A. Padron
(Mr. R-10)
Hey Bill, is there any other topic that you'd respond to on this board? LOL. Gotta love a man's dedication to his favorite car, even if it's a #@!%$ R10.
Hey, don't start picking on Mr. R-10 now.:-) William and I are probably the two biggest R-10 fans around. Believe me, those immortal speedsters weren't nearly as noisy during their heyday as they were in their final years. Again, I understand where you're coming from.
Well, I am known to answer and respond to any questions to my overall all-time favorite fleet of cars (the R-10's, naturally) in general on this Message Board, but sometimes I might able to reply also as well in relation to the IND "A" line (my all-time favorite route overall) or the IND Division in general. All of the SubTalk posters and even this web site's host, plus the ERA and UTC members who have really known myself for all these many years are keenly aware and quite respectful of my own personal choice of rolling stock and transit route. I will leave any other non-related R-10 topics to the other SubTalk posters, who are better experts in giving replys in their own subject expertise.
Let's face it...the prime reason that I have been a lifelong transit buff since I was four years old (now at a great age of 42) is because of the R-10's on the "A" line in what was perhaps its most glorious and exciting period during the cars' amazing forty year service life. These fleet of cars became the foundation of a hobby that has enriched and established my leisure life and enjoyment to the point that I can honestly look back on my true admiration on the cars without any second thoughts or regrets. I still get excited about talking about the R-10's when prompted even to this day, despite the fact the cars have been removed from the road via that farewell E.R.A. fantrip on Sunday, October 29, 1989.
I know that there are those individuals who do not care or like the cars for whatever their reasons they may be, but I am one who will not challenge anyone's right to say what they wish in a negative fashion towards the R-10's. However, I simply choose as my own true personal choice via description as an aim (not perscription) on my own mutual feelings on the R-10's, and no matter in what state they ever were, particular even right down to their days of despair, I will always support them through the rest of my lifetime. In any event, with all the many great fun times that I have had with the R-10's in the past in my own younger days (particularly on the "A" line at their most glorious era), there will always be a soft spot in my heart and soul for these classic vintage set of NYC subway cars.
Now, some quick answers to some past R-10 questions seen on this Message Board.
1. The R-10's ran on the IND "A", "AA" and "BB" routes, plus the BMT #14, #15 and #16 lines (mid-1950's), before Chrystie Street opened in 1967. After Chrystie Street, there were seen on the now combined IND-BMT Division on these lines reported for the remainder of their service lines (but not including the three ERA fantrips): "A", "AA", "B", "CC" (later "C"), "D", "E", "F", "GG", "HH" (also "H"), "J" and "LL" (1980-81), "N" (1980), JFK Express and Aqueduct Special.
2. Ironically, on Tuesday, February 17, 1981 (twenty years ago), I only rode the R-10's once on a Manhattan-bound "LL" run from Canarsie to 8th Avenue, and the lead motor was #3161. The cars were still equipped with the older IND division roll signs, and the front car was signed up "EE-8th Avenue" (halfway) and "Jamaica-169th Street" (unbelievable but true).
3. When at first with the GOH Green R-10's, a few new roll signs were printed for only the terminals and routes for the "C", "G", and "H" (plus Special), but they were still many of the older curtains even still in place then. However, in December 1988, just before the opening of the Archer Avenue Subway, every single roll sign in the GOH R-10 fleet were replaced with newly printed ones for only routes and terminals the "A", "C", "H" and "D" plus Shuttle and Special.
4. While it is a known fact that a mixed consist of R-42's coupled to a set of R-10's where photographed on the "A" line back in the late 1960's, as well as one lone R-16 coupled to five R-10 cars in Rockaway Park Yard a decade earlier (as a few isolated examples), the R-10's have basically been known to be coupled in solid trains throughout their revenue service life. However, the GOH Green Westinghouse R-10's were always kept in solid group trains too as well, and they were not coupled to any of the other non-GOH W.H. and/or G.E. units (or even another class of rolling stock such as the Red R-30's). Of course, back in the 1960's and 1970's, R-10's that were freshly repainted (either NYCTA blue & white or MTA silver & blue) had been coupled with other different color scheme units regardless of their electrical and motor control package (Westinghouse or General Electric).
Okay, I am done talking about the R-10's on this post...I know you are all tired and exhausted from reading this message already!
-William A. Padron
(R-10's...always and forever no matter what!)
Do you have the hots for the R12/14, or are they the imposter ?
I can sympathize. I have that feeling toward the R27/30, and think they got a raw deal throughout life on low-priority BMT routes, and some joint service. They all should have been rebuilt and A/C'd. Then there would only be 225 R68*, not 625.
Adding A/C to the R-30s would have increased their weight to BMT standard-like proportions. Being that as it may, they should have been kept.
I agree. Just keeping half of the 110 R30A cars scrapped in 1993 would allow significant increases in L service, which is badly needed today. With all cars on an SMS, I'm sure a creative way could've been thought up to have the un AC'd R30's "scheduled" for maintenance during the summer months, thus minimizing their usage when it was hot.
Once the R10's were gone, out of 162 GOH R30's, 46 were handpicked to survive, even in storage. But the GOH R44's turned out to be more reliable than expected, and Keipper wanted the roster cleaned up, so the idiot ordered them scrapped. They are about to repeat the mistake with the IRT Redbirds. It seems to me about 200 R33/36 should be handpicked for retention for a rainy day.
Gee, that's 5 extra L trains which could be added to the schedule. What an idiotic move.
Right, there would have been just enough R30's to keep the Slants off the Eastern Division. Four round trips a day between Canarsie and Eigth Avenue is all that would have been required of them.
Now the Suits want to do the same thing to the IRT Redbirds, rather than cherry-pick 200 for storage.
I could give an honorable mention to the R-12/14's, as well as the R-7A prototype #1575, but also including the classic R-1/9's as a close runner-up. During my younger railfan days on the NYC subway system, I did also travel many times on the IRT #1 and #5 and the BMT Jamaica Avenue elevated line to/from 168th Street, in addition to my very constant journeys on the IND "A" and related routes to Lefferts Boulevard and the Rockaways.
However, my admiration for the entire R-10 car fleet is considered much more than that, particularly as a true fan who actually went out of his own way in riding and photographing these units wherever and whenever they went in revenue service. Many of my colleagues in the railfan membership community also know myself too well as being an avid collector of many photos & slides and other memorabillia related to these vintage cars.
-William A. Padron
I'm sure you must have photos of just about every R-10 built. Are there any car numbers whose photo you don't have? Just curious.
P. S. You probably saw my posts in which I claim to have seen some R-10s with twin circular windows on each side door leaf. You've said before that you never saw anything like that, and I take your word for it. If, to the best of your knowledge, none of the R-10s ever had such door leaves, I won't bring it up again.
Gee, I used to take a record account of what R-10 cars I have in my personal photo file, but that was done years ago, and stopped doing so when it suddenly became too time consuming. I do have a very grandoise assortment of R-10 photos and slides in my vastly proud collection, and they are too numerous to mention, particularly them being in albums plus slide trays and boxes.
To this day, I still cannot recall ever seeing or have the direct knowledge of any R-10 car with the R-11/15 type "porthole" window side doors, nor I have ever seen any photograph or slide to this day of such a unit in existence if there ever was once as the case might be. I even submitted that inquiry a while back ago to a very knowledgeable and expert ERA member (we both have known each other for the longest time) who has been photographing the NYC transit system for many years (more intense than the other veteran picture takers), and he replied to me honestly that he cannot ever recall seeing any R-10 train with such that type of a noticeable feature.
So to make it shortly, I have never seen or recall any R-10 in full view or on photographic record with the R-11/15 like formatted side door at all. If it did exist, I am sure that any photos or slides of those particular units would have been indeed a rare collector's item at most.
-William A. Padron
I didn't know the R-10s had "Jamaica-169th St." signs!
There is a photo of a train of Thunderbirds at 8th Ave. on the Canarsie, circa 1980-81, with both bulkhead signs blank. Maybe it was a nod to the BMT standards.:-)
Larry, Redbird R-33 posted a while back that there was a train of eight R-32s with an R-10 tacked onto each end which ran for a brief period during the smorgasbord train era. IIRC he said he even saw it.
I'm still sticking by my guns by saying there were some R-10s with twin circular windows on each side door leaf. I'm telling you, I saw some. Once, at 14th St., a southbound A came screaming in, and I swear every car in that consist had twin circular windows. They weren't R-11s, either. I kick myself for not writing down the car numbers. Wayne, you should have been there.
You've said that before and I sure don't ever remember seeing them!
Do you think there is any chance that you were young enough at the time to confuse them with R-10's when they really weren't.
Well, I was 11-12 at the time. The trains were all A trains, and I rode on the A every Saturday. On one or two occasions, there would be one car in the consist with twin circular windows. Then on one Saturday, I saw a train in which all ten cars had those windows. Make no mistake, they were R-10s. They had the half-and-half teal and white paint scheme in use from 1968 until 1971, when the silver and blue craze began.
I don't want to get anyone fired up about this, and if no one else can substantiate my claim, so be it. I'll give it a rest once and for all. In any case, if any R-10s did have these door leaves, it would have been only a few of them.
Steve, I'm not fired up, I'm just puzzled as to why no one else ever saw them. You know that I left the city ten years earlier, so my last contact with the R-10's was in 1957. They could have made a lot of changes in that time!:-)
I have no thoughts on this one way or another; will just offer that I can't remember ever seeing such R10's. But won't swear they didn't exist.
Believe it or not, some of the front and side destination terminals found on certain older R-10 roll signs included "Jamaica-169th St.", "Jamaica-Parsons Blvd." (on Hillside, not Archer), "Court St.-Boro Hall" (even after the station closed in 1946), "Brooklyn-Hoyt St." and "Fulton St.-East NY". When the IND was extended into the Rockaways in 1956, R-10 car roll signs also had "Wave Crest" as well.
The most unusual roll sign destination readings I have ever seen IMHO at that time were for the R-12/14/15's that had "Ditmars Blvd", "167th St-Jerome Ave" and "Polo Grounds". For the route designation readings, there were "8-Astoria" and "9-Dyre Ave." on the front, plus "Astoria Local" and "Dyre Ave. Local" on the side too.
-William A. Padron
William,
Your name is synonomous with R-10.
I enjoyed running the r-10's, even in the deferred maintenance era. They were a great piece of equipment, and I, too, will always remember them fondly. Thanks for all your effort in documenting their history.
Reagrds,
Marc
The R10 was an IND car which plied mostly IND routes most of it's life. Most of it's trips on the BMT happened after 1967 when Chrystie St. opened, which allowed them to see service on BMT lines as B and D trains. They did appear for a brief time on the Eastern division in the mid 60's. And in a strange twist, there's a pic of one on the LL dated 1980 in the car roster section! Can't explain it.
According to one of Greller's books, and to a fan-trip itinerary, 30 were on the Eastern Division 1955-58 (while 50 R16 were on the A), but not in the '60s. During the R46 calamity in the early 80's, they could show up just about anywhere on the B division. The 110 GOH Green ones only had signs for A thru D.
IIRC, some GOH R-10s kept their original bulkhead roller curtains. In fact, the very last train of R-10s I ever took had original curtains on the first car. It was a C train which I boarded at Bedford Park on October 26 or 27, 1988. Its route sign was set to HH, and when the T/O lifted up the hinged panel to check the signs, I casually remarked, "HH?". He then took hold of the crank handle and started cranking away until he got to "C". I wished he'd kept going until it got to "A"!:-)
I used to live in Far Rockaway and I took the A train from my house to my job in lower Manhattan.
On many occasions, the trains I rode consisted of R-10's. While these cars were hot in the summer and cold in the winter (especially on the Far Rockaway line), they were the best built cars in the system at that time.
I especially enjoyed the stretch between Broad Channel and Howard Beach.
In the mid-1980's (I don't remember the exact date), the R-10's were overhauled and repainted dark green with silver roofs.
Shortly thereafter, the R-10's were retired.
I wished that the T/A would have kept these cars in service longer.
You're not alone. I would have loved to see those R-10s stick around longer - minus the flat spots, of course. I also wish they'd kept even one trainset on the A. From what I heard, they were still in decent shape mechanically.
That Howard Beach-Broad Channel run was a rocket ride with the Thundering Herd. I rode on that stretch for the first time in July of 1969 and when the motorman wrapped it, all bets were off. That train took off as though it had been shot out of a cannon.
I always wondered if air conditioning the entire R10 fleet was feasible. This, with the upgrade to electrically powered doors might've saved them until now, although it probably wasn't worth it for 40 yo cars.
The forced air duct/blower system, and being a married pair, in the R26 and up, lended themselves to air conditioning. The R10 didn't meet either of those citeria.
That's right. They weren't going to GOH any single cars except for the WF R-33s, and then those cars didn't get A/C. The 110 R-10s didn't get a true GOH; they were cleaned and fixed up sufficiently to keep them running until the R-68s were all delivered.
Which is why they were painted Green. Green meant fixed up, Red meant GOH. An IRT consist of various types, including R22, got Green as well. Of course, single K cars on PATH got AC when built in 1958.
I don't believe the red painted R30's recieved any more of an overhaul then the green R10's did.
There is no reason other than cost that the earlier SMEE cars couldn't have been made married pairs to create room for A/C equipmnet. Believe it or not Chicago TA did it with the 4000's that were already [beloved] relics at the time of the program. All numbers were in pairs and cars kept as such, with the inner ends being blind just as in the NYCT ones.
So it could have been done with the R16-22 cars too, but then meaning a bigger compressor meaning new, ok add the R10-15 also. As the R16-22 weren't very good anyway and over 30 years old or thereabouts we get back to money and why bother.
I'd be curious as to whether the R10 type roof could be adapted for A/C. The mainline RR's added Air to their 1920's steel cars with clerestory roof [R1-9 type, etc] either by putting in a false ceiling and all the ducts above it, or filling in the clerestory on the sides to make a sort of arch roof for the purpose. But those cars were a lot bigger just as the A/C of those days was a lot bulkier.
The RR's were still trying to keep intercity business and improved the old cars as much as they could. Commuters suburban or city didn't get that fortune. As I'm sure most of you know A/C wasn't seriously considered for NYCT until the late 60's.
Was that done with all of the 4000s in Chicago? Did they have any components removed from the "blind" ends?
I'm assuming components were removed to make a stock of repair parts for the future. I'd take a sure guess though that each car still had a compressor as the old type cars were all-air brake and needed the air, as opposed to the NYCT/LIRR married pairs. I"m assuming the LIRR cars had the compressor on one car and the Low-v convertor on the other. I'm sure another Chicago fan/resident might give a more detailed answer.
From the London Underground's website at www.thetube.com:
Refreshing the Tube
...New rolling stock on the Jubilee, Northern and Central Lines is equipped with a forced air pressure ventilation system, that is automatically controlled by the levels of temperature and humidity. All refurbished trains on other lines will be fitted with this new ventilation fan system over the next two to three years.
Air conditioning is often mentioned as a potential solution. But this would be extremely costly to fit and would have to cope with the heat of the entire system, not merely the volume of air in a carriage.
True air conditioning is not really practical on an underground system, because of the problem of dissipating the heat produced. Tunnels can become dangerously over-heated, even leading to a fire hazard, and the temperature on platforms is likely to soar.
Only the most recent metro systems, those of Hong Kong and Singapore, have air conditioning on their trains and, even there, they are experiencing great difficulties in making it work...
Huh? Almost all of the subway trains in Chicago, New York, Boston and Philly have a/c and for the most part it's fairly reliable. Of course the Tube is a much older system with extremely tight clearances, but you'd think they could find a practical way to put a/c on the cars.
Thoughts or comments?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Help! Calling any available HVAC Engineer to this board to lend expertise!
Would London subway need AC, let's not forget that the climate is much colder than in NYC.
Arti
From what I understand (I'm hardly an expert on London weather, mind you), London's weather is more mild than either New York's or Chicago's, but there are still days during the summer when the temperature is uncomfortably warm.
Also, even if the outside air temperature is relatively cool, the interior of any subway train can become incredibly hot and stuffy during rush hour when people are packed on like sardines.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Plus the depth of the system and its age and tight clearances may make venting the heat generated by the cars' AC unit more difficult than either with the cut and cover/vented subway station design New York uses, or the deep-bore-but-high-vaulted-ceiling design the DC Metro uses for its stations. London tube riders could be treated to the equivalent of the Santa Ana winds blowing in their faces ever time a train enters a station.
I wonder how difficult it would be to dig some vent shafts and install exhaust fans at various places throughout the system.
Almost all of Chicago's subway tunnels and stations are of deep-bore construction with fairly tight clearances (although not nearly as tight at the Tube's), and the subway tunnels and stations are actually noticeably cooler during the summer than the surface even though all of Chicago's trains are air-conditioned. The vent shafts combined with the piston effect of the trains seems to do a pretty good job of keeping the system cool in the summer. Also, almost all of the a/c equipment on Chicago's trains is mounted below the floor, so overhead tunnel clearances are not an issue.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Considering the depth of the tubes, it would be a very, very tall task.
Trains and other equipment produce heat. The subway would need a way to deal with it.
Forced air ventilation is I think another name for a fan in a box. It is of little comfort on a red hot day standing shoulder to shoulder with your face in someones armpit, and that someone has been eating garlic. Garlic should be banned on all subways/undergrounds.
Simon
Swindon UK
"Garlic should be banned on all subways/undergrounds."
Yeah, but make cure Count Dracula turns in his Metrocard firs. :0)
A/C on the Tube lines is out of the question considering the tight spaces and the lack of outside ventilation.
But there is no excuse for the surface lines not to have it, those trains are built just like the NY cars, there's plenty of room underneath the cars to house the units. Only problem would be if the fourth rail would get in the way.
Just out of curiousity, what are the dimensions of typical Tube rolling stock? Judging by the photos on this site, the shape of the trains would indicate that they have to squeeze through some incredibly tight spots.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well after looking at my books, I was unable, or simply missed the width dimensions of the London Tube stock. But I can tell you that the width would be comparable to an IRT car.
Here is the paragraph regarding height, YOU do the math:
"In order to allow tube cars to fit inside the small diameter tube tunnels they are 750mm lower in height than the surface stock cars. The floor height is only 600mm above rail level instead of 975mm. This restricts the size and layout of underfloor equipment......."
In layman's terms, it's a tight squeeze on the tube stock trains. You'll find out David!
David, I have sent you a couple of photos which should give you an idea of size.
Simon
Swindon UK
Sans the turtle-back roof, the r10's and the r15's
do share the same drop windows... and the 15's
sport the double loop door windows..
Just a few quick questions i always wondered about. First, why did some of the older NYC subway cars have 12 wheels on there trucks instead of the now standard 8. Why was the purpose of the extra 4 wheels? Next, what does regenerative breaking really do? How does it work. Thanks
Tom
8 wheel trucks vs 12 wheel trucks is a matter of axle loading. Assuming the average weight of a NYCT car is 80,000 Lbs., the axle load would be 20,000 Lbs per axle. If the roadbed were not designed to handle this axle load, then 6-wheel trucks would reduce the axle load to 13,333 Lbs.
Huh? Name one NYC subway car that had a 3-axle truck???
Wow, I mis-read that one. When I read it the first time, I read it as a hypothetical question. Too much sloop - I guess. Thanks Jeff.
Too much SLOOP???
What exactly is "SLOOP"?! -Thomas :I
Among other things, it's a type of sailing ship.
TD, have you been sailing recently?
Wow, I mis-read that one. When I read it the first time, I read it as a hypothetical question. Too much sleep - I guess. Thanks Jeff.
The R-15/16 series cars used on the IRT #2 but mainly #3 lines did-And then specifically on the block of cars that were manufactured with those unique round "porthole" looking windows in the doors. I distinctly remember riding them as a young boy and counting 3 axels per truck.. Hey, I've posted this question myself trying to ascertain whether or not NYCTA really did in fact employ these only to have people post back saying either "huh?", "whut?" or "no Thomas, three BOGEYS couldn't work on a subway car!!!" (?!?) :< So once and for all folks, YES NYCTA did use one, I was correct as I thought intially!!!!
Thomas :)
No, you are IN-correct. As a boy you probably misinterpreted
what you were seeing under the cars. The R15, 16 and 17
series of subway cars used exactly the same number of trucks and
wheels as every other NYC subway car: two trucks, 4 wheels each.
>>> R-15/16 series cars used on the IRT #2 but mainly #3 lines did-And then specifically on the block of cars that were manufactured with those unique round "porthole" looking windows in the doors. I distinctly remember riding them as a young boy and counting 3 axels per truck <<<
It certainly seems to be faulty memory This picture of an R-15 clearly shows the trucks had only two axles.
Tom
Sorry but in this case you are incorrect.
First:According to the "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing Manual", there were 100 R-15s built, all in 1950. They were assigned to the Flushing line until 1964. In addition, the book does not specify any non-standard trucks on any car.
Second: R-16s were B division cars. I can say with certainty that you never saw an R-16 in mainline IRT service.
Finally: I looked up the R-17s which also had the round window in the syorm door. There were 10 odd-balls of the 400 cars built. Cars 6800 - 6809 had AC units installed (6 per car)but they were removed 1962 - 1964.
I hope this helps clarifies your memory.
I was speaking of round windows in the PASSENGER DOORS for the R-16; this very site features numerous pix of this car, and lists a retirement date some time in the 1980s!!! -Peace, Thomas
>>> I was speaking of round windows in the PASSENGER DOORS for the R-16 <<<
Only the ten car R-11 BMT order and the R-15 (IRT) had the portholes in the side doors. The R-16 went back to the more conventional rectangular side door windows, and was not an IRT car.
Tom
I know there were a few R-10s with twin round circular windows on their side doors. I saw them on the A when they still had the half-and-half teal and white paint scheme. Unfortunately, I never wrote their numbers down.
It still didn't have 6-axle trucks. No subway car ever did, and no MU car on any NYC transit system did either. In fact, I can't think of ANY MU car that had 6-axle trucks. Not even IC bilevel electrics.
-Hank
"Dude" it is apparently YOUR memory that needs claifying:
First, the R-15s I asked about I specifically stated where seen by me in the late 1970s as running in mainline service on the IRT line #s 2 and 3 lines-your response only accounts to their assignments up until 1964, a moot point and extraneous info. since again my question concerned the late 1970s. Their official last-run date is recorded as December 10, 1984, nearly 5-6 years after I would've seen them on the # 3.
Secondly, again, my posting concerned cars only with the round porthole PASSENGER door windows, not the storm ones. Where is it written anywhere in my initial posting "storm doors"?!
Finally, if I typed "R-16/17" rather than the more obviously correct "R-15/17", then it was obvious to everyone except supposedly you that this was a TYPO. Any NYCTA subway buff with at least five minutes in the hobby knows that as an IND/BMT scale car, there is simply no way in the world it is physically possible for one to run on tracks of IRT-spec. radiuses and clearances, etc., etc.
Say, aren't you the one I had that other um- er, "misunderstanding" with several days ago regarding a previous posting about those "rushing to judge" those others also "rushing to judge" in wake of that recent derailment? I really do hope you havn't been hawk-eyeing all of my posts simply to sharpshoot and proofread them! If so, then DO TELL as if you'll remember, Thomas the Subway Engine says "No one likes a tease" (!) Peace, Thomas:/
P.S. Be a true pal and subway affecionado and provide me with the ISBN# of that book ASAP!!
The R-15/16 series cars used on the IRT #2 but mainly #3 lines didAnd then specifically on the block of cars that were manufactured with those unique round "porthole" looking windows in the doors. I distinctly remember riding them as a young boy and counting 3 axels per truck.. Hey, I've posted this question myself trying to ascertain whether or not NYCTA really did in fact employ these only to have people post back saying either "huh?", "whut?" or "no Thomas, three BOGEYS couldn't work on a subway car!!!" (?!?) :< So once and for all folks, YES NYCTA did use one, I was correct as I thought intially!!!!
Thomas :)
Thomas, pal, so there will be no misunderstanding, I've copied the text of the post in question. FIRST, you never stated that it was in the 70s that you allegedly saw this 6-wheeled truck, only that you rode it as a young boy. Secondly, the block of cars you referred to with the porthole windows were the R-15s. Had you typed R15/17 instead of R-16 you'd still be incorrect as the R-17 had standard door panel glass. Third, I have over 45 years in the hobby and over 20 in the profession. I think that the occasional typo-O aside, (which you only too eagerly pointed out recently) my credentials speak for themself. Finally, the book I refer to has no ISBN#. It is an internal document, usually available to managers and supervisors in the department of subways.
Those cars NEVER had three axles per truck. NO subway cars at NYCTA ever did, not even the predecessor companies.
While leaving the 125th Street Station going downtown, I was observing the platform of my C train as it was leaving the station when lo and behold, I saw coming into the station on the uptown local track an R40 B train!
Since when did the B line start going back to the R40s? I hadn't seen one come uptown in so long, I forgot what they look like!
Probably a fluke. No doubt it came from the Q, or maybe the N.
:-) Andrew
I think they run a few Slant R40 B trains on weekends. I've only been on one once though. It's only one or two trains running at a given time, so your chances are small. Now if we could get those schedules/train #'s from the B line supervisor.
It's potluck as to the B line schedule that the slant 40 will be following on any given day. Older equipment do not follow a set schedule unlike the 110B and the 142 when it first came out.
Considering my friend that you work the C, never mind what a slant 40 looks like, do you remember what the Sun looks like? Oh and there's something called weather that I'm sure that you need a little refreshing with :P
"Considering my friend that you work the C, never mind what a slant 40 looks like, do you remember what the Sun looks like? Oh and there's something called weather that I'm sure that you need a little refreshing with :P"
I guess the same applies for the (E) !
Bill "Newkirk"
See, there you go starting up again, zman. LOL :-)
I'll have you know that I picked the C line in the winter so I wouldn't have to worry about snowstorms and frozen doors and guard lights and signal malfunctions due to inclement weather. And I do see the sun when I'm going to work, smarty.
I'm sure you didn't have that problem when you was working on that slow J line. You need to add to your T/O series "How To Work The J Line In 50 Minutes Or Less." If indeed that's at all possible! LOL
You and I will both be sorry if this pick goes into the hot weather!
Hey, the J is one of the best lines in the B division! Most people would work the J in 50 minutes or less if they didn't hold you at Myrtle and Eastern Pkwy all the time.
One time as a C/R about 5 years ago, I wasn't held at any gap station (on the late PM) and pulled into Sutphin Blvd 11 minutes hot! If it was any other line then my last stop would've been G2 (written report) city. When I saw my watch I was sweating so much that I could've filled a glass.
An occasional R40 lash up will be signed "B" from the weekend "Q" layups, either to replace a R68A MU train that is being shopped, that is my guess.
I can remember when the Slant R-40s ruled the "B" line and that wasn't so long ago. I guess there is still a train of Slant R-40s every once in a while.
BMTJeff
I liked the Slants. Loved them, in fact. I hate the Hippo/68s, but I guess they (the TA) thought the "B" being a busier line should have newer equipment, and the OPTO factor. Oh well.
The first time I ever saw a slant, I must have been about 5 or 6. My father took me to Coney Island on the F train (it was an R-46) and as we were pulling into the terminal, I spotted a very weird looking train signed up as the B.
Oh, I wanted to take the B back to Manhattan so bad! I wanted to ride that train so bad! It looked so cool! So I said, "Daddy, can we take the B train back, please!"
But somehow, we wound up getting the D train back. From then on, the slants had an aura of mystery about it. What was it like?
But a few years later, when we finally got to ride on a slant and I saw that it had roughly the same interior as any older-style train, I was very disappointed.
I was expecting something more exotic.
When I was around 10-11, my preferance was toward the 75-foot cars, because they had foward-facing seats, the seats had nice colors, and they looked sleek. I always wanted to ride them and was stumped if we got an R-32, 38, 40, etc.
But then, my preferance turned the other way, wanting to ride the older trains instead!
Right now, I guess you can say I'll take anything. Even the R-142!
It has always struck me as something "exotic" when ever I see a train that has been re-routed or is not the usual car type for a paricular line.
That must be the active Railfan Gene kicking in on those of us so afflicted. The human DNA code will soon be published. A cure or treatment may soon be upon us. Enjoy your ill health while you can.
avid
The attraction to the R40 slants by the little people is the low rail-fan window.
I counted SIX different slants on the B today. They must've decided to save the mileage on the R68A's and use the 40's since the slants are getting closer to retirement.
EXACTLY. Only will happen when Coney Qs are not running, like a holiday weekend, like today.
Call Wayne!!!!!
I noticed something else on Friday - some of the Eastern Division Slants have returned to CI - at least #4384-5-6-7 and #4370-1, all running madly up and down the "Q" line.
My run was #4343 from BB to De Kalb Avenue, max. speed was 51MPH, a squat, iron-fisted operator held the throttle wide open. No slowdown for the leaves coming into Newkirk, just a full service brake halfway up the platform, just like in the good old days.
God Bless our humble shovelnoses.
wayne
I do remember when the slants ruled the West End, the Motorman often wrapped it three points leaving 36th Street, and never braked until way inside Pacific Street....I used to get a different hairstyle from the wind blowing in the cracks of the narrow storm door.
I could also tell you of slant rides down CPW along the IND from 168 to 59th Street...made good use of the storm door handle to hold onto!
Last year I caught a Saturday Slant on the "B", #4312 was the north motor, and the T/O had it pinned after we passed Prospect up to past Union Street (I watched the local stations as they passed by). He had to be doing 50. It was a great ride.
wayne
I remember the pre-GOH Slants assigned to the "B", they moved so fast down the express that when it went off the rack (3rd rail gap), the lights barely went off, THAT'S how fast we used to go. It was N-4208, can't recall the S MU. Local stations were just a blur, and you had the larger glass in the side doors, and those unique small lamps-fan-lamps-fan arrangment in the car (non-AC'ed Slants).
I can't resist.
Was it uphill, in the snow, both ways?
avid
We were heading north, if you are referring to the direction of travel.
The Eastern Division borrowed some slants from CI while the ENY fleet of cars underwent 12 year SMS upgrades. Those cars are all finished, so the only slants assigned to ENY are the higher numbered ones from of old.
Bill does that include #4398-4399?
thanks
wayne
I've seen Slant R-40s on the Eastern division on occasion. I remember in 1993 I saw a trainset of Slant R-40s on the "L" line. If I'm not mistaken there are still one a two trainsets of Slant R-40s on the Eastern division of the BMT.
BMTJeff
There's more than THAT out there; there's (and this number has been amended with recent info from Bill From Maspeth) a total of 48 Slant R40, assigned to the Eastern Division "L" line.
They are: #4398-4399, #4400-4419, #4422-4425, #4426/4429 (pair), #4430-4449.
(scrapped: 4420,4421,4427,4428)
wayne
Amen to that.
Sounds like a near-super express run. How many D trains did that Q blow by?
Just the one, we were on mid-day schedule; we passed it at Newkirk.
wayne
I suppose the R-160 order will replace the R40 Slants.
That's a rumor. More reliable people have the R-143s and R-160s going to the Eastern Division. We will see.
The R-160 will replace the R-38, R-40 and R-42.
Hopefully the R-143 will replace the R-32GE, it is slated to replace nothing.
Are the R160s option cars for the R143?
Will the R160 be similar to the R143?
The R-160s are a seperate order from the R-143s, but are supposed to be 60-foot cars just like the 143s, so they can replace the 1000 or so R-38/40/42 cars (though I think Train Dude said some of the R-32s could go before some of the R-42s).
Hopefully, they'll keep some of the cars in better shape around to expand the B Division fleet and allow some of the things tht have been talked about on the board (Culver express service on the F or V, 10-car C trains) to happen. I would guess, going by past experience, when the R-160s enter service, they'll be assigned to the IND and BMT Southern Division lines, while the R-32s will go over to replace the R-40S/R-40M/R-42s on the Eastern Division.
I've seen the single picture of the R-143 car and it looked quite bulky and awkward. Like an R-142 that had too many doughnuts.
It is not nearly as sleek or attractive as the 75-footers.
And that redbird-style motorman's window really looks out of place
The R-142 is a pretty attractive train. I rode it once on the #6 and overall, I had a positive impression. My 2 complaints are
1) the doors are a bit wide for my taste (narrower looks more formal)
2) too quiet and too smooth, though that's a major plus for most.
I know it's a long shot, but any possibility the R-160 will be designed like the [pre-GOH] R-42?
That was really an attractive design, but the GOH butchered them!
If they'd ever get the R-143s out of Japan and into service, they might have enough time to get passenger feedback on the (retrograde) interior design to use in the specs for the R-160.
Obviously, they couldn't use the exact same seating layout as on the R-44/46/68s, because the new cars will be 15 feet shorter. But that doesn't mean they couldn't go back to the floor plan for the R-1/9, R-10 or R-16 as a basis for the seating lay-out for the new 60-foot cars.
Just so long as they don't copy the R-16's door motor pocket design for the R-160. :-)
The R-16s originally had nice, vertical door pockets. They got the slanted pockets when they received new door engines in the 70s.
I remember -- the slanted pockets on the R-16s showed up just about at the same time the pistachio green and grey interiors with the stenciled car numbers arrived. It was like some "Island of Dr. Moreau" experiment gone horribly, horribly wrong :-)
With the slant door pockets, I felt very closed in. I guess the fix worked, but oppressive. I usually just wanted off those trains.
avid
I rode on the R-16s twice, for very short runs, 19 years apart. The second time was near the end of their lives in October of 1986, and the first thing I thought was, I don't remember those slanted door pockets being there before.
From what I've heard the R160 is replacing the R38, R40 and part of the R32 fleet.
Not that it's official or anything.
From what i've heard, R-160 is replacing all 60' cars, except r-32's (r-32's rebuilt by GE will be scrapped). You can find this info on the TA's website under their capitol projects (look under future projects.)
As it should be; they should share duty with the R68A's on the "B".
Friday the "B" was 100% R68A, all the Slants were playing on the "Q".
wayne
I first saw a Slant R-40 at the Pacific Street station in June of 1992 and I think that it was on the "B" line. I first rode a Slant R-40 on the "B" line a year later. The Slant R-40s are the weirdest looking cars that were ever used in the New York City subway system. The interiors are nothing special however.
BMTJeff
I remember the slants when they were new. They had huge letters up front, not the small round characters of today. Believe it or not, I didn't even notice the big magenta F on the front of that very first train I saw as it pulled into 34th St. in 1968. My mother had to point it out to me. You know what really takes the cake? My sister liked them! And she's not a subway buff by any stretch of the imagination. We took that aforementioned F train one stop to 42nd St. since she got such a big kick out of those cars.
I'm sure your sister like the Slant r-40s because of their usual appearance. They were rather strange looking cars when they first entered service back in 1968. When I first saw them in 1992 I thought that they were rather odd looking. There has been no car like the Slant R-40s since.
BMTJeff
I always associated them with the Path-1 cars. Not slants but the treatment of the sidewalls of both.
avid
The Path-1 cars were quite interesting to look at. If I'm not mistaken they're still in service. There was a batch of later cars that looked just like them if I'm not mistaken.
BMTJeff
PA-1's are still in service.
The PA-2 and PA-3 are identical to the 1s.
The PA-4's entered service in the 1980's and have 3 doors on each side.
I also remember seeing an electronic sign on a couple PATH cars, identical to the ones on the R-44/46. Were they removed? I haven't seen them lately.
I'm not sure about the removal of the electronic signs since I've only ridden the PATH trains once and that was in May of 1994. It is possible that they were only testing the electronic signs and they have since been removed.
BMTJeff
Nor will there ever be. They are the ugliest cars going; with all that hardware on the front end, but there is a beauty in the ugliness; and they are among (if not the) fastest cars running today; probably only the R38s and R44s can match them speed-wise.
They have cousins in Eastern Division called R40M which have the straight ends found on R42 cars; but the sides and "B" (blind) ends are the same as the Slant ones. Most unusual. This was due to a design change from Loewy-Snaith to Sundberg-Farrar during construction in 1969; the first 300 cars were Slant; the last 100 were Straight.
The "M" in R40M means "modified".
wayne
You can also tell a R40M from a R42 by the "B" side storm dorrs (same as slants), and by the indentation in the middle of the outside of the car body, running the lenght of the entire car (also same as slants).
Before they go to that great scrapper in the sky or to some costal reef under the sea, I'd still like to see a couple of slants hooked up to two R-40Ms and paired with three or four sets of 40Ms to create an eight- or 10-car train that would have only slanted ends at the TOs positions and rounded bonnets in the middle. That would end up looking like the Expo 67 rail cars they built for Montreal about the same time the Slants were coming off the assembly line.
I rode on those cars on the Expo Express. They could move on the straightaways.
Thats a dream of mine, doing the dash from Howard Beach to Broad Channel.
avid
" They have huge letters up front "
These cars came like that. I witch the Slant R-40's are still like that today. www.nycsubway.org have some photos of how the Slant R40's
look like back then. I like the one's with the Blue "E" on the
Slant R-40's.
Dominick Bermudez.
R-40S#4201
Maybe some of the original Slant R-40 roll signs were saved and if any of them are placed on to the museum roster they'll use those roll signs so the Slant R-40s will have an accurate style of roll sign for historicl purposes. The same type of signs were once used on the R-40Ms and the R-42s.
BMTJeff
The signs on the R40M and R42 were smaller than the ones used on the Slant end cars because the window itself was smaller.
Here are the signs in the R40-40M-42 cars as delivered
All Slant: E, F, S
R40M (first batch): E, F, S
R40M (brake test batch): EE, GG, S
R42: 4500-4593: N (first few cars wore RR signs)
R42: 4594-4693: A, AA, B (first few cars wore D signs)
R42: 4694-4807: CC, D
R42: 4808-4879: QB, QJ, RR
R42: 4880-4921: KK, LL, M
R42: 4922-4949: E, F initially then KK, LL, M
wayne
Are any of the original roll signs for these cars still in existence?
BMTJeff
I'm heavily into signage and I loved the huge letters on the front of the first R40s. I suppose it was a little over the top though.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I always preferred the route-destination combination above the storm door. That way, you always knew at a glance the train and where it was headed as it pulled into a station.
NOTE: I don't write these. I only repost them w/ the permission of the Author.
*********************************************************************
Today we learn; It's how you say it.
Every industry has some sort of slang or jargon used to describe certain
equipment, positions or even tasks at hand. I've heard forklif trucks called
everything from Jeeps to Towmotors (a brand name produced by
Caterpillar).The military is big on acronyms for this purpose, some
descriptive, some derogatory such as SNAFU, FUBAR and SUCAFU. Railroads also
use pronounced abreviations such as OpCon for Operations Control or OpCom
for Operations Command. Today's study will cover many of the terms we use in
the rail industry.
While much of the jargon or slang that we use has evolved over the years,
some of it is recent owing to the evolution of technology. An modern acronym
is FRED, Flashing Rear End Device. The F has also been used for another word
too, but we won't mention that one here. Just use your imaginations. The
head end receiver that links with FRED has been referred to as HOT, Head of
Train.
Terminology varies from terminal to terminal in some cases, and also from
region to region across the country. In the Midwest when a crew member wants
the Engineer to slow up a bit he or she will say "easy." In the East it is
"steady." In many parts of the country, making a coupling is called just
that, a coupling. It is also referred to as the tie or a joint. In the East
it may be the hitch or the hook. A good coupling in New England is stated as
"highball on the hitch". In the Midwest it might be "coupling made, OK on
the joint, or good tie" among others.
When we cut off the entire cut we might say let "them all go" while in the
New England they say "headpin them." Pulling through a track in the Midwest
is most often stated "pull through track such and such" where in New England
it is "haul through track such and such."
It all means the same thing, we just say it differently. None of it is
wrong, it is just what has been the custom or routine in each geographic
region for years.
Lets look at some of the common jargon used in the industry and how we can
have fun with it.
To get out of the way without completely clearing up is often referred to as
getting high. The Yardmaster might say "go up high on the lead to let the
switcher get into track seven". This means I would pull up far enough to
clear track seven, but not get into the clear of the lead itself. Now, lets
have fun. We are told to "get high on the lead and after the switcher
clears, go in and make the joint on track nine and after we get our
highball, it is okay to smoke 'em out of here". We have been told to get
high, make a joint, get a highball and smoke 'em. But in doing all of this,
under no circumstances are we to violate Rule G, which is the rule that
prohibits the use of alcohol while on duty or while subject to call and
prohibits entirely, the use of controlled substances. We can make the
joints, we just can't smoke them.
We are subject to random, reasonable cause, probable cause and post accident
drug and alcohol testing under federal law. We of course, have come up with
terminology to cover this as well. The tests are often referred to as the
whiz quiz. One of the ladies I know that handles this chore has been dubbed
the "Pee Queen". Her son who also performs this duty has been dubbed the
"Piss Boy".
When cutting air into the train after making the coupling a crew member
might say "cutting them in, making the air, hanging the hose, tying one on"
or "stepping in" among others. I might respond "air time, on the air", or
even just "air" When FRED starts to register an increase in brake pipe
pressure, I might inform the Conductor that "Fred is getting it up back
there".
Applying a handbrake on a car is often referred to as "tying them down,
securing them, spinning a brake" or "wrapping a handbrake". A lightly
applied handbrake might be called a "sneaker' while a good tight one might
be called "an anchor." A crew member might also say he is applying a few
"squeezers" too.
Uncoupling may be referred to as "detaching, cutting away, chopping them
off" or "hacking them away".
A caboose has many different monikers including "crummy, cabin, hack, crum
box, brain box (sic), buggy, van. Buggy is common in New England and van
comes from Canada. Cabin was a Pennsylvania Railroad term.
An intermodal train might be referred as the Pigs common on the IC (in days
past, the pig trains had symbols like P50 and P51), the ICG also had
Slingshot Trains. These were short, fast, reduced crew trains operating
between Chicago and St Louis, Trailer Train common to Chessie System (an
example being the CPTT, Chicago-Philadelphia Trailer Train), Truck Train
common to the PRR (what PRR dubbed their trailer on flatcar service when it
was launched), Tote Train common to the L&N (Tote the acronym for trailer on
train), Van Train or TV Train common to Penn Central and successor Conrail
(well known for their fleet of TrailVan trains), The Birds on CNW for their
Falcon Trains as their intermodal service was nicknamed. Milwaukee Road had
its Sprint Trains indicating short fast and frequent service. Many of these
terms still live on today on the succesors of the above companies.
We the help, have also come up with names for them as well, such as the
swine and oinkers. A short intermodal train might be referred to as a
piglet. One platform of a stack car is commonly referred to as a tub.
Auto trains also have a variety of names depending upon the railroad.
Conrail had its ML or MultiLevel trains, Santa Fe had Vehicle trains, and of
course Auto Trains used by many lines, not to be confused with Amtrak's
"Auto Train". The term auto train can be a misnomer though as more than
autos are carried, SUV's pick ups, minivans and other motor vehicles are
also carried as well on these trains.
Back in the days when we still used cabooses regularly and the tail end of
the train began to move, the Conductor or Flagman would inform us by saying
"rolling, moving, all moving, all coming, all shaking, all wiggling, got me
coming".
The engine servicng areas have been referred to by many titles such as "the
house, the barn, the barn yard, the stable, the junk yard, the Cheker
station, the filling station". The power itself comes under many titles too
such as "the horses, the horsies, motors, power, goats". Poor performing
power might be referred to as "dogs, lemons" and the always popular "junk".
When we are having air trouble, we might say we "have a hole in them". This
normally means there is likely an emergency vent valve or A-1 reduction
valve stuck open, an air hose not coupled or an angle cock open at the end
of the cut allowing the air to blow freely into the atmosphere. It doesn't
mean somebody came out and drilled holes in the brake pipe.
If you are working the power hard and still moving slowly, you might say you
are "moving like a heard of turtles." If you are struggling to make a grade
and really moving slowly, you might be "on your hands and knees."
Then, there is the hours of service. When you run out of time on the hours,
you must stop. In doing so, you "go dead, go to the hogs or go to the dogs
(HOS is often referred to as the hog law or dog law), outlaw, go on the law,
expire, pass away, drop dead, blow up or can." Try explaining to a
non-railroader or civilian as I call them, about going dead. There have been
numerous stories over the years of frantic wives and mothers calling to find
out where the husband or son is as he should have been home hours ago. The
caller tells them he "went dead" and they get frantic thinking they have
lost a loved one. Recrews for trains dead on the hours are often referred to
as "Dogcatch" crews. On the IC they use the letters DC as part of the symbol
for the dogcatch crew such as the recrew for CPGL being the DCCPGL.
When we are transported from one terminal to another, we are deadheaded.
This is not to be confused with Deadheads that followed Jerry Garcia, Bob
Weir and those Grateful boys all across the continent. We can deadhead by
various methods; taxi, company vehicle, Amtrak or VIA, bus, airplane,
helicopter or even on another freight train. While I personally have never d
one the in flight method, I know several people that have. We get paid for
deadheading (although it is at the lowest rate they are allowed under our
collective bargaining agreements) and the service falls under the hours of
service act.
Company officials have been referred to by many names, most of which denote
methods on which they observe us. We used to refer to the managers on the
MoPac as the "Gestapo" or the "KGB" owing to their sneaky ways of spying on
us. I've also heard, used or been called (in my Trainmaster days) cut
throats, weed watchers, weed walkers, the SS or the spies.
Putting a train into emergency has numerous nicknames such as "plugging
them, dumping it, wiping them out, cleaning them, cleaning the clock, taking
it all, big holing them, putting it in the hole, blasting the air, piping
it, shooting the pill, shooting the bill."
Being that we are a caring and concerned bunch, if someone is caught in
violation of Rule G and has to go into a treatment program, they are
referred to as "going to dry out, going into the clean out, taking the cure"
or "going into spin dry."
With discipline, when somebody gets time of without pay (pulled out of
service), we commonly refer to them as having been fired, even if it is only
for a few days. If you get deferred time off (not actual time, just a
probation of sorts) it is often referred to as "time over your head" or
"time on paper." If a new hire gets dismissed before his or her
probationary period is completed, they are "59 day'd."
And finally, when somebody retires, we refer to it as "taking the pension"
or "pulling the pin."
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hi there
I'm sure someone commented on this already, so I apologize in advance...
by now, everybody saw Joe Korman's page on the car assignments...I noticed that only 20 cars are needed on both the N and W line, the number of trains on the R decreased too...
This can't be good for West End and Sea Beach....maybe good for Astoria though...
JY
The W and N are almost the same line except for 9 N and 11 W stops in Brooklyn.
It is not 20 CARS, but 20 TRAIN SETS.
Today I rode R62 #4 train consisting of 1321-1322-1323-1324-1325-1595-1594-1593-1592-1591 (1321 is south). The exterior is so dirty you can't look out the window. It is finely covered with dried brown soot on all 10 cars (particularly heavy on 1321-1322). The interior can use some cleaning as well with litter (newspapers, peanut cases, bottles, etc.) scattering around. With the holiday weekend upon us, now is a good time for that consist to get a nice, clean shower it desperately needs.
Someone posted before the schedule for car washing at Jamaica yard, something like 70% of the fleet every week. The mainline IRT should have a better schedule, one would think, since at night essentially only 3 lines run (1,2,4). Everything else is a shuttle.
The 6 now runs its full route at night too.
Delivered tonight to East 180th Street Yard from Linden Yard. This is my first eyewitness report of a car delivery in person rather than from the railfan (apartment) window. Lou from Brooklyn and I happened to be riding to our respective homes after spending a day in Branford repairing some car barn doors in this frigid weather.
We were passing the East on the way south and witnessed very briefly the car delivery being done in yard limits, with crews preparing to cut the trailing locomtive from the consist, set it off to the side, and have the lead locomotives push the consist into the barn.
Consist was Loco 899-RD328 (ex R-14)-Loco 890-6405-04-03-02-01-Loco 65. All locomotives were removed from the yard once the cars were pushed into the barn.
6461-65 should also be here.
-Stef
Today on the SI Ferry I saw a guy looking at an old subway map, it was so old it said something like "Introducing Metrocard" or something to that. Why keep an old map like that? Are they not free from any booth? Anyone know anyone like this?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
I saw someone at Canal st looking for the D or Q while reading a 1987 map. I also once saw someone at Union Turnpike staring at his 1987 map totally perplexed as to why the E was express and the F was local, and why everyone was telling him to take the E express to Sutphin to get to the LIRR.
My Urban Archaeology class, circa 1998, had a walking tour of Lower Manhattan. We were to meet at Trinity Churchyard, and the professor, who is from New Jersey, was giving directions via the Lexington and Broadway lines. She said you could take the R, but the N didn't stop there... she was looking at a 1990 map with the N going over the Manhattan Bridge!
Well, once could argue that the N is stopping in Lower Manhattan on a "temporary" basis as I still await that fateful day (this summer) when the Broadway Express goes right to Brooklyn again (as should QBs). Of course, that's the Day the D stops running, so ... what else is new.
Why is it that the center platform is unused at CC 59th St? So much that there is a sign that says, "Wrong side don't open doors" was there a purpose in the past? What is the reason for the closing now?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Back in 1971, you'd open up both sides on the express tracks at 59th. I imagine the reason was that you couldn't be on both sides of the car at once when closing up to make sure nobody got dragged. That platform used to get used though, especially at rush hour given all the folks changing trains.
I remember using that center platform on one or two occasions.
As I recall, only during rush hours would both sides of the train open at 59th St. The center platform would be closed during non-rush hours. When it was in use, the conductor would first open the doors to the normal platform, then go across and open the doors to the center platform. When everyone who wanted to had gotten on or off, the center platform doors would close, then the conductor would return to the other side of the train and close the doors to the regular platform. Only peak-direction trains (southbound AM, northbound PM) would open their center-platform doors.
When regular service on the "A" line was provided by R-10s, and on the "D" line by R1-9s, door controls were accessed from between cars, as opposed to from within a conductor's room (as is current practice). A platform conductor was stationed on the center platform, and his job was to operate the controls from the platform side, while the conductor operated his controls standing between 2 cars. The platform conductor could easily see the length of the train, to make sure that no one had any problems with the doors. If there was a problem, the regular conductor could watch the controls, while the platform conductor walked to wherever the problem was.
Has anyone ever thought to put a port on the outside of a subway car so that a platform conductor could plug a portable control box into a train and do the same thing today?
Was a similar setup ever used at the 1/2 platform at "E" terminal of Chambers Street? That is the western most platform, not the center platform.
avid
I was a conductor on the D train most of the time between May 65 and March 67 nd I can't recall the center plaform operation you describe. Has this been done again? When was it stopped if it had been done previously?
Long running tradition at 59th during rush hours (both ends) only, I remember it still going on in 1975 when I left the city, years after my 1971 "ta" stint ... I worked the D then also and it wasn't until someone else remeinded me that there was indeed a platform conductor there who would open you up and close you up (they'd always ASK since many of us just did both sides ourselves and sometimes he was walking another train that failed to give indication) that I even remembered that sometimes someone would pop me and close me on that side.
But it was only done at crunch time, the rest of the day you just opened up facing the wall.
I think MTA could use that center platform for the Express trains. Witch I put the sign on witch train will come on what platform.
>Uptown Local trainsB,C.
So that's the way it should be.
Dominick Bermudez.
I think MTA could use that center platform for the Express trains. Witch I put the sign on witch train will come on what platform.
^Express Trains A,D.
>Uptown Local trainsB,C.
So that's the way it should be.
Dominick Bermudez.
I think MTA could use that center platform for the Express trains. Witch I put the sign on witch train will come on what platform.
^Express Trains A,D.
>Uptown Local trainsB,C.
So that's the way it should be.
Dominick Bermudez.
I think MTA could use that center platform for the Express trains. Witch I put the sign on witch train will come on what platform.
< Downtown Local Trains B,C.
^Express Trains A,D.
>Uptown Local Trains B,C.
So that's the way it should be.
Dominick Bermudez.
The way it should be is to have a simple, cross platform arrangement. Your suggestion would increase dwell time.
The signage is already there, you are not making sense.
Faster boarding and alighting. One side used to exit from the train, the other to enter.
Idea "borrowed" from Chambers Street BMT, believe it or not. The Chambers St outer and center platforms were supposed to be used for exit traffic and the remaining inner platforms used for boarding trains.
--mark
Good idea, but never would work with NYC. Just like the ideas of waiting to the side of the subway car doors when they get out, or stay on the proper side of the stairs on select stations.
It also wouldn't work due to people wanting to cross-platform transfer from the express to the local or vice-versa. Only people leaving the subway at 59th or transfering to the 1 could use the middle platform, if you were going from the A or D to the AA or BB, you had to use the door going to the outside (right hand) platform.
The center platform was used only for rush hours and was largely used by folks swapping A and D lines (which were both expresses at the time) ... you'd get a decent crowd there, making it worthwhile. And it cut down on the crowding on the platforms between the expresses and locals.
And, of course, it's used for the Nostalgia Train specials these days :)
From the time that I was little, I would make up fake cities (and countries) and then make up EVERYTHING about them.
I still do that.
I once wanted to get people to talk about their FAKE CITIES, and I want to do that again, so to get the ball rolling:
Myca City is a city of islands all linked by bridge, but accessible to the outside world only by ferry. It includes a newly opened light rail called The SUNWAY. These are the stops along one branch:
Circular Place
Query Triangle
Secluded Alley
Neighborhood #4
Middle of Nowhere
Edge of Nowhere
East Nowhere
High Water
Hell
Neighborhood #63
Mile-a-mountain
Flavor Country
You can add your own station names to the mix.
BTW, Flavor Country is a theme park that was orignally run by the cigarette companies.
And all kitchens in people's homes use Formyca (Formica) countertops.
Is Myca City served by Trans Canarsie Airlines or Air Bayonne ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Is Myca City served by Trans Canarsie Airlines or Air Bayonne ?
Trans Dogpatch.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Don t laugh, when I was a kid, in Brooklyn, whe had time floors in all the rooms except my folks bedroom and the living room. I made up my own with a toy train my brother gave me. Thewe were 59 tiles from the front door to the end of the hallway. , 14 more to the far wall of the bedroom, and 35 tiles from the kitchen to the bedroom. So I had a good size city, with 2 North South subway lines, and 2 crosstown lines. 45 years later, I still can picture it. The Main North South line even had local express service. Subway Lines A-G, and 25 bus and trolley lines in a grid pattern. Used the Manhatten Xtown Streets as a example of 2 ways Streets to run my bus service Xtown, and Brooklyn Aves to run my North South Bus Srvices, with some changes 1 bus every 6-8 blocks.
Do you use counterfit money or expired Metrocards for the fare, or is it unfair?
avid
tHIS WAS IN THE 50S SO TOKENS OR EXACT FARE ONLY 15 CENTS FREE TRANSFER FROM SUBWAY TO BUS AND VISA VERSA.
The Sunway costs a dollar, with transfers to the Myca City Busses for an additional 15 cents.
Fare is via POP.
Don't forget:
Neighborhood #12
Neighborhood #12a
Neighborhood #14
Hell's Kitchen
Hell's Living Room
Hell's Foyer
Hell's George Foreman Grilling Machine (that's a rough area of town)
Hell's Kitchen is where the Formyca tops are manufactured.
Did you know there is a block station on the Mohawk Adirondack & Northern which is referred to in the timetable as Block Station HELL. Really!
[You can add your own station names to the mix.]
Willoughby
I was thinking of building a branch to Crackton, Airport Refueling Bay, Rural Route 9 and Area 51-A to replace the 22A bus.
What about Little Newark and the Russian district?
Mark
Or Little Athens and the Greek district!
YA'SOU!
We're talking about Springfield.
Whatever.
I guess I lost track of reality and fantasy ;-)
The Travel section of Sunday's Inquirer has an article about Amtrak's quiet cars, where use of cell phones and noisy computers is discouraged. Amtrak is being cautious, since one factor involved in businessmen's decisions to use the train vs. flying is that they can use the train as a rolling office with their phones. Several trains between New York and Washington now have a quiet car.
Amen. They should have a quiet car on every train. You don't have to want to sleep to be annoyed by the racket.
A homeless man pushed a 23-year old woman onto the northbound F line track at the 4th Street/6th Ave F station Saturday night. The woman was helped off the track by two men and the perp was arrested.
Brief story in Sunday Times.
THere are so many homeless people in the system, I don't feel as safe.
These people present a threat to other riders and should be ejected from the system. How many more innocent people are going to be hurt until the TA does something.
Perhaps they should turn abandoned areas of the system into mini-jails.
I don't know about "Mini Jails", but urban planners will always have the dilemma of balancing the constitutional rights of the homeless with the quality of life around the subway. Perhape David Cole or someone knows of an urban planning news group which could more appropiately deal with this topic. I've had my fill of political OT threads on SubTalk but I'd like to dig into this one on the right forum.
Well, since it deals with the subway I don't really see it as being off-topic for SubTalk. However, that's for Dave Pirmann to decide.
I don't know of any urban planning forums per se, but you're welcome to take up the topic on my Graffiti Wall forum on The Nth Ward. Doubtful that you'll have much company there, though. Hell, I hardly ever go there myself anymore and I'm the webmaster. (Yes, I do plan on updating the rest of The Nth Ward sooner or later -- lately it's been progressing about as fast as the Second Avenue Subway construction -- but I've got about a million other things on my plate of greater importance right now.)
You might want to try browsing through some of the categories on Yahoo dealing with urban planning and policy; I'm sure there's plenty of stuff out there.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.straphangers.org has forums related to complaints about the subway. And if you look around there, I'm not the only who is seeing homeless all over the place.
I do NOT associate with foolish Naderites.
foolish Naderites.
Are you being redundant, or do you think that some of them are not foolish?
I was being redundant,they are ALL foolish
with all of the social services like welfare cut off by 'clinton' back in 1996, it seems that the chickens are returning to roost!!
now ' the streets - subway stations ' are the only places left to go to !!
I would respond to this but I am getting fed up with up just repeating the same stuff over and over and over again. Come up with something other than "the chickens are returning to roost" what does that mean anyway?
excuse me sir as you can see the webmaster here is rightfully tired of SOME of the b.s. of which if i am guilty of this also
I will be man enough to ADMIT any of my shortcomings of this now & in the past ..
as for the "chickens" i was refering to how the social safety net has been pulled away & how wrong it is & the RESULTS,
of this ( on topic ) A RISE IN HOMELESSNESS @ not just in a subway station near you !!
My thanks as always to the GOOD PEOPLE HERE on this forum etc... let us all work hard to keep this forum ALIVE &
running on the rails of ""transit systems worldwide" & keep the & ""this"" discussion ""on track"" ( thanks )
SalaamAllah.....
I think we both know how the other stands on this issue and any further discussion would do nothing but take up bandwith. if you wish you may E-mail me but I will not bring up off-topic issues on this board.
that is ok with me @ & you can see my photos of rails systems on my e mail the link is here !! ( on my e mail address )
thanks Dand124 !!!
. . .And the ironic thing is that by doing something as authoritarian and fascist as building mini-jails in the system in which to incarcerate them, we'd actually be providing what these people live in the subway system for in the first place-warmth, to maybe find something to eat, and a place to sleep. Couldn't we provide these exact same things but under non-punitive settings that won't needlesly punish them and legally scar them for life? Thomas' mantra for the day": BEING INVOLUNTARILY HOMELESS SHOULD NOT BE A CRIME!!
It is a very naive and misguided society that belives that by simply passing a law against people of a certain status or group, that these people will either just cease to exist or completely conform to exactly what the greater majority demands of them. It just isn't going to happen, and we only create more and newer "criminals" every time we do this. I find it DEPLORABLE that the wealthiest nation in the world, especially at or near the tail-end of a long-term $$$$ economic boom like this one has an entire segment of society it has simply forgotten and discarded. See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil and out of sight-out of mind policies like the criminalization and incarceration of people whose only "crime" is simply to be homeless merely punishes the SYMPTOM, and doesn't even address the PROBLEM and its CAUSES!!!! Peace, Thomas :I
While I am a Jew, and do not subscribe to his deity, Jesus once said "You will always have the poor among you" The whole dilemma is, how to stop the homeless from being a threat to themselves and others within the restrictions of a free society. we agree, criminal sanctions are not the answer, but even non criminal forcible intervention is unconstitutional. So, the homeless are out there until they decide to "come in" Actually, (and I'll bet Jeff Rosen will back me up on this) if the homeless did decide to seek help and turn their life around, the reduced crime rate would more than pay for the expanded treatment / housing facilities required
You don't CRIMINALIZE being homeless you HELP them, since most or all didn't at some point plan or hope to become homeless. Christ would've reached out his hand and helped these people, as indeed we should too! BTW-if the basis for you contention that they should ALL be ejected from the system is going to be that a micro-percentage of the homeless injure or harass riders, then similary, are we going to eject and/or jail ALL fare=paying commuters since some injure others too?! Peace Thomas, :)
While I agree that more and better help has to be provided, the subway is not for loitering. Those who are not using it for transportation should be removed (except, of course, for rail fans).
Yeah, all us railfans should be given a lifetime railfan photo identification card clearly stamped "do not detain this railfan-unlimited MTA rpoperty access all levels all areas". The card should similarly be able to swipe any turnstile as an unlimited lifetime rides metrocard. Peace, Thomas:)
THere are so many homeless people in the system, I don't feel as safe.
These people present a threat to other riders and should be ejected from the system. How many more innocent people are going to be hurt until the TA does something.
Perhaps they should turn abandoned areas of the system into mini-jails.
This is completely ridiculous. You demonize the entire bulk of the HARMLESS population, just because of the few bad apples. Do you do the same thing to Africans, Hispanics, Women, Teenagers?
Of course you do. But I'm not surprised, in the People's Communist Elite's Republic of China that's exactly how it works.
Maybe we should turn projects into mini-jails for minorities, and schools into mini-jails for children. Oops, we've already done that. I guess it's time to figure out where to put the women, right?
We should punish you because you say those kinds of things. In China, it would happen.
Will this make you happy.
The NYCTA will use several Redbirds to tour the system making key stops to pick up and discharge homeless travelers. The Homeless Express will tour the entire system. This is to ensure all of the city share in helping.
Homed persons are prohibited from the fan tour.
Redbirds are the choice , for the seats can be used to stretch out on. This will also give extended life to those precious relics.
Two stones on one bird, not to bad.
avid
If it's going to be cars with NO A/C EWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't imagine the T/O operating without a gas mask!
Otherwise it's an interesting idea. Kind of silly but interesting. "Homeless Express" HA!
Will this make you happy.
The NYCTA will use several Redbirds to tour the system making key stops to pick up and discharge homeless travelers. The Homeless Express will tour the entire system. This is to ensure all of the city share in helping.
Homed persons are prohibited from the fan tour.
Redbirds are the choice , for the seats can be used to stretch out on. This will also give extended life to those precious relics.
Two stones on one bird, not to bad.To insure crew safety, the consist will be headed by an EP019 car.
avid
APM's are as cool as trains!
Click here
The Daily News had this story this morning. Apparently they've changed their mind about putting them off the Jersey coast, though NYS still plans to use about half the `birds for a reef off Long Island.
Considering all the little glitches going on with the R-142s right now, New Jersey may have two to four years to change their mind and still get the Redbirds before they hit the scrapper.
Daily News on Redbird reef rejection
NJ probably turned the redbirds down because they didn't contain any toxic waste like everything else that's dumped there.
NJ state officials were afraid of subway crime on the Reef-birds. As if anybody's going to get mugged underwater. :-)
I find it not only amusing that NJ who has a dozen or so K cars off the Jersey Coastline doesn't want these NY cars in their waters but that the EPA has to assess these cars pollutionwise that are about the same age as the K cars already polluting the waters. I hate environmentalists, just put one cab in every home to shut them up.
Yesterday I breezed by Unionport Yard on the #5 when I spotted R-142 #6395. It seems that the black treatment around front windows weren't applied. Did Bombardier forget ?
Bill "Newkirk"
i posted the same question a few days ago. i assumed that it was the plattsburgh plant test car. it also has a marker light with a blown bulb.
SelkirkTMO and others: I was looking through a collection of RR postcards (mostly stations) that I recently acquired and came across this linen card postmarked 1946 - thought you might enjoy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's a great picture. Beautiful card.
And unlike most other scenes from that era, you can still shoot the same scene today (well - not mid-winter). Only the paint on the locomotive and coach has changed!
I think the MWCR got a fleet of 7 new locomotives in the 1970's. They were identical to the original locomotives.
I don't know if all seven were replaced within that short a period, I remember the first being in the late 70s or early 80s, with others coming at long and irregular intervals. These are all one of a kinds and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the older units were still running. BTW there is an interesting piece on the Cog in the current issue of Callboy (newsletter for the Mass Bay RRE).
The angled engine boiler is evident in your picture as well as it is in my paperweight.
I was most fascinated when I visited for it looked like the boiler was ready to tunnel itself into the ground when viewing the engine at the base station.
I believe that the theory was that since the engine would always operate on the side of the mountain, it would be built so the boiler would be more level to compensate.
Yep, that's the longest, highest section of trestle on the line (though lots more shorter, similar stretches not quite so far off the ground) on the way up and down. Decent shot though. They still have postcards up there with a similar view too.
Thanks for that! It's a hell of a great ride. (and to remain on track here, the ONLY commuter line to the top of the mountain where the weather bureau and television/FM facilities are located)
It is also the steepest grade on the line, rising over one foot for every three feet forward (34% IIRC).
[At least four OSHA inspectors have suffered fatal heart attacks while visiting the Cog. (None has ever survived long enough to file a report)] :)
Heh. It's definitely a major "Ooooh! Ahhh!" ... something ya just gotta do at LEAST once ...
Yes, and I did!
How many people know that the locomotive pushes the car up the mountain by bumping it along (no coupler) and then goes down the mountain a few feet ahead. The armstrong brakes on the car are operated solely by the brakeman. Upward bound trains always take the sidings so the downward bound trips never have to stop. Finally, you have to move 11 separate items to throw a cog railway switch. Its almost as good a show as the view (better if you are fogged in)! Definitely a place where you earn your meager pay!
When I did it, I was lucky enough to have hung out with the folks there prior to the ride, showed my cert and shot the sheet for a while before we went up. Needless to say, the guys were chewing my ear off with the details and when we made it up to the top, I got a tour of the underside of the car and got to see the wrappers and gearworks. AMAZING design. Of course, on the way down we kept bumping the loco and managed a derail as well. Whatta ride! :)
From what I have heard the cog ry at Pikes Peak is at the other end of the spectrum, very modern and smooth operation.
Could well be - I haven't done that one. Mt Washington is run as a historic railroad and though they've built new equipment and maintain the track VERY well, they wanted to keep it as historically accurate as possible.
A short blurb in Sunday's Inquirer Metro Briefs section says that a CSX freight train killed a man in Ridley Township (close suburb southwest of Philly served by SEPTA's R2 and R3 lines) Friday night. Details are not given. A six-pack and bottle of cognac were found at the scene.
A six-pack and bottle of cognac were found at the scene.
What was that moron thinking??? Those don't go together at all!
A few weeks ago, someone at one of the newsgroups made a post and referred folks there to a site in Germany that offers a rail-oriented screen saver, in which trains move from one side of the screen to the other. I checked it out, and found it quite interesting, especially the part where a user can create his/her own graphics.
So, guess what I did? I'm up to the R-40 slants right now.....but every model of NYCTA subway car is now scrolling across my screen when the screen saver kicks in.
The cars are created using Microsoft Paint -- in .BMP format. One has to create their "new" train selections quite small (they are about 1/2 inch high on the screen) so the "zoom" feature of Paint gets a workout.
If y'all would like to check out the screen saver at the author's site, here it is:
http://www.t-online.de/home/MMMeyer/home_e.htm
You can download the demo version ONLY at the website.
There IS a hitch to being able to have the user graphics (i.e. the NYCTA cars) in the screen saver.....it IS shareware, but you MUST buy the full version. It can be done at the website above, and the payment can be sent via a shareware-payment service in Pennsylvania, all linked through the author's site. (It costs a whole $19.04 with shipping, and I had mine within a week of ordering, sent by the author in Germany.)
If any of you do decide to buy the screen saver, and would like the NYCTA trains, I would be happy to send them to you. I will NOT sned them unless you have bought the screen saver (as I don't want to be inundated with folks just wanting the graphics that have taken me many, many hours to create by myself).
...add two cents to the cost and you'd have $19.06!!
all the more relating to NYCTA's opening!
Well, you may have added YOUR two cents.....but it was DEAD WRONG!!!
The subway in New York opened on October 27, 1904.
NOT 1906.......
And that was the IRT....not NYCTA; NYCTA came into existence about 49 years later. (All the historical dates can be found at.....
http://www.nycsubway.org!!!)
sounds great do you have the address?
I have always thought that six wheel trucks could not be used in the subway system because of the sharp curves. I recall years ago that the Reading Rwy derailed one set of wheels on each truck of a three unit lash-up of C truck diesels when they tried to switch a sidng here using the big power.
Surprisingly the sidng curvature did not look that great to the naked eye. It took them all day to rerail those three units. I believe they were Alco Century C630's!
Yes. Additionally they are less forgiving about bumps and dips in the track. Subway cars are relatively light anyway, there isnt much need to distribute the weight out over 6 axles. Besides, I think a great deal of the weight is in the trucks themselves!
3 axle trucks are not impossible any more. The invention of self steering Radial trucks can let 6 axle power go almost anywhere. You'll find radial trucks on all EMD power SD70 or later.
Six axles would be practical for a locomotive operating over tracks with grades, and pulling long consists of freight, but the subway equipment consists of all multiple-unit railcars, which together function like one locomotive, therefore negating the need for any six axle trucks. Six axle trucks would provide for some interesting running, but the bean counters would look to pinch every penny they could, or to tell it like someone I worked with said, " When they let go of a dollar, George would have to take a deep breath".
Once again you'd likely have to borrow some of the inventiveness from that American hero Joshua Cowen Lionel. I'm always amazed that my 6-8-6 can negotiate 0-27 curves (although I have nothing close on my freight segment of my layout). If you look at the loco from the underside, you'll see how this is possible. The middle drivers have no flanges so that can slide over the ball of the rail on curves. I suppose that this arrangement would work in real life.
Flangeless (the term is blind)wheels have been used on prototype equipment. unfortunately, I can't recall specific examples but it has been done.
My favorite postwar passenger car, the 2625 Irvington, had six wheel trucks. The middle set of wheels were flangeless, or blind.
You're 6-8-6, whether it was a 2020, 671 or 681 was the easiest Lionel locomotive to repair. Three screws and you were at everything. The funny thing was that it was also a relatively trouble free locomotive.
Aside from the interesting question of six-wheel trucks being feasible in a transit situation, why would you want to use them?
A number of folks brought up that six-wheel trucks helped distribute axle-loading for heavy cars. But another, important, reason they were used on passenger equipment was to provide a smoother ride on track of variable quality through their longer wheelbase and internal springing.
The latter should not be an issue in a rapid transit system.
Oh, I wasn't advocating using six wheel trucks. I have assumed all my life that they could not even be considered because of the curves and turns in the subway system. I was trying to verify if my assumption was correct.
Incorrect, I'm afraid, as I've stated on numerous posts to this effect- One need only look at the gargantuan wheelbase trucks on a modern diesel-electric freight locomotive and their long wheebases to know that thru the ingenious use of radial self-steering axels inside of these trucks, the triple-axeled bogey is in fact more than possible, its reality. in my opinion, its also better since it can employ a suspension based on redistributing weight and bumps out over 6 instead of 4 axels, and can likewise use a 6-wheel braking system stopping the train in less time and feet than 4 could. Peace, Thomas:)
APM's are as cool as trains!
I know it's called the L train, but I like the sound and wording of what the line used to be called.
A question: Are there still trains terminating, in the rush hour, at Myrtle Ave in Brooklyn(from 8th Ave. in Manhattan)?
Carl M.
No sir. Trains that do not go all the way to Canarsie instead "drop out" at Broadway Junction. They used to "drop out" at Atlantic Av, but the Line Supt. has ordered otherwise.
How long has this practice been going on?
Carl M.
That's interesting -- the timetables still show service to Atlantic.
I think they stopped the turnaround at Myrtle around 1975. I used to get on at Myrtle/Wyckoff and it was nice to be able to get an empty train.
I know from reading it on SubTalk that years ago there was express service on the Canarsie Line. [My mom says that if you read it on Subtalk, you know it's true.] Since there is no express track, how did this work?
I think it was done like this: An "Express" train started from Rockaway Parkway (and perhaps Lefferts Blvd. too) and made all stops to Myrtle Ave. Then it would skip all the stops until Lorimer. Meanwhile, right after an express left Myrtle, a "local" would be put in at Myrtle using the storage/turn around track between Myrtle and Halsey and would make all the stops. Theoretically, by the time the slower local got to Lorimer, another express would have just caught up to it from the rear.
When did they run this express service, and what did they label it?
[When did they run this express service, and what did they label it?]
It started on 1936 and ended in the mid 1950's.
Check out this service guide from the BMT_Lines website.
Your description is incomplete. It was the use of the Multi's as locals that made this possible. Their acceleration/braking performance made their operation as locals almost as fast as the BMT standards operating as expresses. Moreover, after Lorimer the locals sped up relative to the trailing express. This ensured that all trains arrived at 8th Ave at regular intervals. Otherwise, there would have been a jam at the end of the line.
It was also a very innovative approach because it made full use of the Multi's capabilities and very limited numbers. There is no other way that the BMT could have exploited the Multi's capabilities.
Thanks, Stephen.
I thought I had read somewhere that the Multis had lousy brakes??
I know it's called the L train, but I like the sound and wording of what the line used to be called.
A question: Are there still trains terminating, in the rush hour, at Myrtle Ave in Brooklyn(from 8th Ave. in Manhattan)? If not, when did this service end?
Carl M.
How was the car assignment on the IRT lines between 1990-96?
Almost identical to today's current assignments.
Here is the IRT Car Assignment back in May, 1991
#1 336 cars-R62a 2140-2475.
#2 362 cars-R26 7750-7849
R28 7850-7959
R29 #8688-#8805
R33 9096/9097, 9102/9103, 9124/9125, 9140/9141, 9158/9159, 9172/9173, 9206/9207, 9216/9217, 9232/9233, 9242/9243, 9246-9249, 9274/9275, 9292-9297, 9300/9301.
#3 230 cars-R62a 1910-2139.
#4 369 cars-R33 9076/9077, 9086/9087, 9090/9091, 9098/9099, 9112/9113, 9120/9121, 9128/9129, 9174/9175, 9180/9181, 9194/9195, 9198/9199, 9202-9205, 9028/9029, 9214/9215, 9222/9223, 9256-9259, 9262/9263, 9266/9267, 9272/9273, 9278/9279, 9282-9287, 9290/9291, 9298/9299
R62 1301-1625.
#5 406 cars-R33 8806-8967, 8970-9075, 9078-9085, 9088/9089, 9092-9095, 9100/9101, 9104-9111, 9115/9212, 9116-9119, 9122/9123, 9126/9127, 9130/9225, 9132-9139, 9142-9157, 9160-9171, 9176-9179, 9182-9193, 9196/9197, 9200/9201, 9210/9211, 9218-9221, 9226-9231, 9234-9241, 9244/9245, 9250-9255, 9260/9261, 9264/9265, 9268-9271, 9276/9277, 9280/9281, 9288/9289, 9302-9305.
#6 441 cars-R62a 1651-1909
R29 8570-8687
R36WF 9494-9523
R36ML 9524-9557.
#7 399 cars-R33S 9307-9345
R36WF 9346-9493, 9558-9769.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
The 2 and the 5 have since pretty much swapped cars so that the R33, which have much better MDBF, run on a fulltime, full-length route.
So what's railfans and T/O's favorite cab on the subway?
I would take a guess alot of T/O's like the R46's, the cabs seem roomy and quite large, plus a real modern style control panel.
The R44's have a similar panel but the cab is alot smaller.
R68 cabs seem smaller than R46 cabs, and have gone back to two handle controllers.
Also do T/O's prefer two handle controllers to the single handle conrollers on R44 and R46 equipment?
R-44
(Plus)The cab is warm in winter with heaters on both sides.
(Minus) The cab has poor circulation in the summer because there is no vent in the door to permit circulation.
(Minus) The cab is claustrophobic and the seating position is uncomfortable
(Minus) Plug door leaks in bad weather.
R-46
(Plus) Cab heat is same as R-46.
(Plus) Seat is the most comfortable of any RT car.
(Plus) Cab is larger than R-44 or R-68.
(Minus) Poor ventillation in summer.
(Minus) Plug Door leaks in inclement weather.
R-68/R-68A
(Plus)Larger cab than the R-44.
(Plus) Vents in door provide better AC in summer.
(Minus)Very noisy PA & Intercom.
(Minus)Poor seat.
(Minus)One cab heater is inadequate in winter.
Yeah the PA's on the R68's are very noisy.
I personally liked the ALP44 consoles, chairs for the fireman and engineer are both comfortable and its own A/C equipment but if I have to choose on the subway equipment, I liked the old R46 with the swiveling captains chairs and the P/Wire consoles. The R68 cabs aren't bad, I just don't like Westinghouse master controllers. The R40 cars are the worst IMO as the consoles attract dirt and debris and the chairs are hard to fold up, the cab doors and handbrake chains vibrate and the side windows on the R40s used to slide closed with force upon takeoff. The window openings are protected by safety bars only in the conductor's cabs, not the motorman's. I wouldn't think anyone has something positive to say of the R44, except of those that still get to 55 on the straight line.
At least the R40's have a seat back, as well as the R42's.
I remember years ago, some T/Os used to carry a portable seat with backing. Do they make those anymore?
Is there anyway to unlock doors in 75' cars like R44's, R46's, and R68's? Like lets say some psychotic homeless guy starts going crazy or making a mess, is there any way to get out?
Of course the doors can be unlocked electrically from any console. Then again, if you are in a B car on an R-44 or R-46, you can't get to a console. However, what is generally unknown is that the end door glass in R-44, R-46 and R-68/68A is not glass. it's a polycarbonate - made to be easily knocked out in the case of an emergency. Once the 'glass' is knocked out, one can access a small toggle switch near the top of the outside of the door. This will unlock that particular door.
Where is the console located?
The console is located in the cab
There's an easy way to do it with a screwdriver, and it's slightly harder with a house or car key.
1. First, pull at the door. Look in the gap between the door and the wall near the key hole, and you'll see the locking mechanism.
2. Wedge the screwdriver or key between the top and bottom parts, and push down on the lower half (the part attached to the car) by moving the screwdriver handle, and the door will be unlocked. Don't push the top part up (part attached to the door), that will unlock the door but it will remain unlocked after you pass through (dangerous for the rest of the passengers).
3. To enter the next car simply "push switch down to unlock door."
On R-46s and R-68As step 1 is hard and step 2 is easy. On R-68s and R-44s step 1 is easy and step 2 is hard.
On the R-68/68As, if you can somehow gain access to any cab (wether active or not) you can unlock all storm and transverse cab doors from one switch. Never do this unless an emergency is present, since it will cause delays while the crew attempts to find which switch was turned. There is a similar function in R-44/46 cabs, but I believe you need a vapor key to use it.
Picture of R-68a panel. The switch is the one labeled End Doors.
Before the GOH, anybody could unlock the R-44 and 46 storm doors by using a switch to the right of the emergency brake. Now those switches are covered by metal plates, or have had the entire wood panel replaced so there's no trace left. I removed (and replaced) one of the metal panels once and found that the switch had been taken out and all that was left was a gaping hole. It's amazing at what you can think of while on a train waiting to enter 71/Continental.
SIR R-44s kept this switch until this year, now they were covered up. I guess they didn't like people using them to get into the cab end of a car from the adjacent one. It also caused problems if they tried to close a car. No matter, unless you get a braindead crew the doors will be left unlocked at all times.
Hopefully I'd never need to do any of these things, as long as I am not on a long express run on a 75' car with a crazy homeless guy freaking out.
(a) how many passengers carry screwdrivers in their pockets?.......(b) using a screwdriver to unlock the door in time would necessitate a major repair job.
battery one dollar, one dollar.
avid
If you were to get popped by a cop doing this, can you get charged or cited for carrying an unauthorized tool or some general thing like that....Also, I remember years ago on the 46's if you used the outside switch to unlock the doors, an alarm would sound. I remember getting stopped by a cop on the F line @ 0200 hrs returnng from Coney Island...He was cool enough and gave me a warning.
So where are the cops when those damn hawkers walk the cars selling batteries and stupid toys??
I just recieved word that the TA does not want to invest the amount of money needed to update/convert the R-110A. They don't feel that it is worth it.
As for the 110-B, I heard that they will use some of the cars as classrooms to replace the R-10's that are currently being used.
Looks like the R-100's will go the "BMT way" -- after the experimentation is over, as it was on all the late 1930's BMT cars, they were gone.
I guess the R-11's were the only experimentals that went on to live a somewhat fuller life, being rebuilt as R-34's in 1965. How long did they last after that??? i thought I remembered seeing most of them in storage at CI just a few years later.
I have a suggestion to make for the TA concerning the R-110A subway cars. Use the trainset to test new technologies as they come along and fit them to those cars. This way they have a trainset to play with so they won't have to use cars that are already in regular service in order to run the tests. This would be better than scrapping them.
BMTJeff
bmt jeff said:
"Use the trainset to test new technologies as they come along and fit them to those cars. This way they have a trainset to play with so they won't have to use cars that are already in regular service in order to run the tests. This would be better than scrapping them."
on the surface jeff's suggestion seems reasonable...
i've given the matter considerable thought and have come up with a fanciful explanation of why the r110a's will be scrapped...
1. there are real fears among the ta engineers that there would be major troubles, similar to those in "2001", if any attempt was made to decommission the onboard computers on the r110a's...
2. several cutlery companies have expressed interest in buying the stainless steel cladding to make into tableware... experiments must be conducted to see if this can be done economically enough... if so, this may hasten the day when the r142's are junked...
3. several hospitals have expressed interest in the bright interior lighting used in the new cars, and hope to salvage these lights for their operating rooms...
4. the mta wishes to remove all reminders of the cars whose existence for 7 years was to test the new technology of the r142's... once these cars are removed, it will be easier for the mta to announce that the new r142's may require as much as 7 years to iron out all the bugs that are expected to arise in any new equipment...
The T/A spent plenty of money on the R-110A cars to use them as test cars. Why should they scrap them? If they keep them they can use those cars to test new technology when it comes along and not use cars that are already in revenue service. Doesn't that make sense to you? It does make plenty of sense to me though it might not make any sense to the T/A.
BMTJeff
They are a small lot of prototypes, so it is no surprise that they are going to scrap them.
London did the same thing with its experimental 1986 Prototype Tube Stock; they scrapped them after the test period. They didn't even last this long.
wayne
Why not send them to Kawasaki in Yonkers, strip them to the shell, and build 10 more R142 out of them ?
Very good idea. Recycle the test cars instead of scrapping them. I would also suggest keeping them as spare cars in case an R-142/R-142a is wrecked.
BMTJeff
why don't they just keep them they way they are and run them up and down the 2 line?
Good idea. I would also use the R-110As to test new technology as it comes along.
BMTJeff
Why not preserve the R110a's in a museum
steve... i believe that some of the bmt experimental cars were scrapped during world war 2 so that the metal could be used for the war effort... "guns or subway cars"???
Paul, that's absolutely correct. "The Zephyr", "Green Hornet" and "Bluebird" were scrapped during world war II because of their high use of aluminum. However, I'm pretty sure that they were already out of service and the scrapping was just convenient to the war effort.
The Green Hornet was scrapped during WWII. The Zephyr soldiered on and remained in service on the Franklin Ave. shuttle. It wasn't scrapped until 1959, IIRC.
train dude and i are both showing the ravages of old age...
i was just checking in "subway cars of the bmt" by james greller...the green hornet was slated to receive new couplers and was sitting in the 36th elevated yards waiting for parts to arrive... in 1942 a war scrap driver leader spotted the unused hornet... in 1943 it was scrapped...
the "zephyr" ran on the franklin shuttle until 1954 and scrapped in 1958...
the "bluebirds" were out of service in 1955 and stored until 1956 when they were scrapped..
the multi-section cars ran until sep 5 , 1961 and were scrapped... the multi-sections were made by pullman and st.louis... apparently the st louis multis were scrapped before 1961 due to problems with their trucks...
i must say i do not remember riding on any of these cars, especially the green hornet, as they were scrapped before i was born...
"subway cars of the bmt" is a wonderfully illustrated book of the cars of the bmt, with much interesting history of the cars...
"train dude and i are both showing the ravages of old age..."
Actually, I lok at it the opposite way. I'm too young to remember!!
I'm with you. I'm too young to remember any of those experimentals, too.
"train dude and i are both showing the ravages of old age..."
Actually, I look at it the opposite way. I'm too young to remember!!
Indeed they were. The Green Hornet died in 1942 waiting for parts, and the G Men told the BMT to make do with the 67' foot standards and triplexs for the subways/el extensions of the subway.
I believe the Little Zephyr made it to the late 50s. Unsure about the Bluebird, but I do know it was still in service in 1947 on the Carnasie Line, so it survived the war, so to speak.
Thanks for the info. I wish that at least one had survived the cut and made it to the museum tracks out at Coney Island.
BTW, none of the Multi's were saved either. The multi's were the production units of the Zephyr and the Green Hornet.
Unfortunately not one of the many innovative BMT cars of the late
30s and early 40s were saved. I believe there may be a shell of
a Multi out there somewhere. Even during financial difficulties,
the BMT was a progressive company willing to try new technology,
quite in contrast to the IRT and the BOT of the time (the last
real IRT innovation was MUDC in the early 1920s, and the BOT/IND
was still ordering cars in 1940 that were 60' single-unit clones
of the BMT's previous generation D-types)
the BOT/IND was still ordering cars in 1940 that were 60' single-unit clones of the BMT's previous generation D-types)
In terms of acceleration and braking performance isn't NYCT still ordering cars that do not meet Bluebird specs?
Actually the R32's met the bluebird acceleration curve from the specs I've looked over. The braking ... feh. But ain't been anything since that's come close.
Actually the R32's met the bluebird acceleration curve from the specs I've looked over.
Does the R32's meet the following specs from a BMT brochure about the Green Hornet?
"The car has twelve 70 h.p. motors. With these, it has an acceleration of 4 miles per hour per second when carrying a seated load of 186 passengers and 3 miles per hour when carrying a rush hour load. The car has a maximum speed of 53 or 54 miles per hour..."
There would not have been a disparity between service and crush load acceleration had closed loop motor controllers been available in 1934. They've been around for 30 years. The probable reason NYCT is using them in the R142's is that DC traction motors are no longer available at a reasonable price.
The braking ... feh. But ain't been anything since that's come close.
Braking is probably more important than acceleration. It determines maximum speed and train spacing. It is as important as acceleration in reducing headway.
I'd say the lower full-load acceleration of the Green Hornet
was a limit on the motor horsepower available. With a top speed
of 50+ MPH, those motors weren't geared down, so pulling 4 mphps
would be pushing the recommended peak power output of the motor
at crush load.
Although closed-loop control was not used in the "classic era"
of traction controls, variable-load feedback to bias the accelerating
current was in use by the mid-1920s (D-types had it). I don't
know if the Hornet had it. Most PCC streetcars did not.
I believe the Bluebirds were scrapped not long after the war.
BMTman
IIRC they were still in Fresh Pond Yard until 1956, maybe later, as I used to see them there every tme I rode the Myrt starting in mid 1955. One of the conductors told me every time it rained they'd break down.So they didn't use them.
IIRC I ran R11/34 on the Franklin shuttle in the early 70's. I didn't work there often because of the boredom of many short trips. (I worked Vacation Relief M/M). Basically even after rebuilding the R11/34 was not a good piece of equipment. One of our instructors said "why spend all that money to rebuild 10 cars that were no good, they could have had 5 good cars for what they spent". [Danny Miller]
Rather than upgrading to R/142 technology, could the R/110A be downgraded to R/62 technology and be made into the offical NY METS train?
avid
The Nymets are my favorite squadron.
Mine as well. All the way in 2001.
"Rather than upgrading to R/142 technology, could the R/110A be downgraded to R/62 technology and be made into the offical NY METS train?"
Sounds like someone is jealous of that wonderful pinstriper on the #2! :-) -Nick
The R34's lasted to @ 1976, on the Franklin shuttle.
Sorry to see the R110A go. The only opportunity to ride the IRT with a seat in a transverse bench I got was on these cars, and I'm afraid the only one.
Why scrap them? Can't they be retained as they are, running together?
I would think they could at least keep them for use as the 42nd Street shuttle cars, the same way the BMT's oddball cars over the years ended their tours of duty on the Franklin Shuttle.
The way they swap cars out for maintenance, every 30 days, requires compatibility with shuttle cars and their replacements. It starts as a 10 car train from the Bronx, (Pelham ?), 7 cars are swapped with the two south tracks, run around South Ferry and up the west side to swap out the 3 cars on the north track, then back to Pelham. The latter 3 cars may be done only every 60 days.
Noooo! That is the one car class which was around during my railfanning lifetime I haven't been on! Maybe a farewell trip (yeah right)?
I'm surprised Trevor Logan didn't post about this, he usually finds out about these things early on.
Maybe a farewell trip (yeah right)?
There was supposed to be a fantrip on them a few summers ago ... it was cancelled due to equipment problems. I don't remember if it ever got rescheduled.
--Mark
Maybe a farewell trip (yeah right)?
There was supposed to be a fantrip on them a few summers ago ... it was cancelled due to equipment problems. I don't remember if it ever got rescheduled.
--Mark
Oh, I thought that might happen. It probably would have been a long process to make the R110A compatible with R142/R142A's. Too bad, I sure did like riding that train. I liked its crosswise seating that, something I never saw on an IRT train before and probably never will again. I also liked that its front route signs could display both red and green numbers. Whatever material they used that displayed both red and green should also have been used on the R142/142A's.
"I also liked that its front route signs could display both red and green numbers."
When did the R110A ever display a green #? Any photos available to prove this? -Nick
I wish I had a camera to prove it, but one day in 1995 when I saw the R110A pull into East 180th, it displayed a green 5 sign and made all #5 train stops to Bowling Green and ran as a Thru Express in the Bronx. All announcements were made by the conductor and the electronic destination signs showed a 5 in carats like so - <5> - and next to it displayed "Listen for Announcements". The individual line maps in the car showed the 2 train as normal. I was able to ask the conductor what the R110A was doing on the 5 train. He said that it made 1 trip a day down Lexington Avenue and that it still normally ran as a 2 train. It could have been just for a short time in 1995 and then went back to exclusively running on the 2.
Very interesting! I think the R110A was scheduled to run on the #5 a few years ago after it was supposed to come back to service, but that never happened since the new replacement trucks cracked on the way over. -Nick
The R-110A ran as the last <5> out of 238th Street for a few weeks. It ran to Bowling Green, then turned back around and operated as a (5) until 180th Street (the destinantion sign displayed the last stop as 180th Street), then they changed the display to (2) and continued to 241st Street. I felt that that was sort of mean to wait until 180 Street to change the signs instead of doing it at 149th Street G.C.
The automated system was never programed for the 5 line so all announcements were done the old fashion way.
"I also liked that its front route signs could display both red and green numbers"
The R-110A also displayed amber numbers too, I've seen it.
Bill "Newkirk"
Amber is a combination of red and green. It's done by using AC, the LEDs switch between red and green so fast that it appears yellow to the naked eye.
what # on the irt would they use as amber? when did you see the R110A like this? -Nick
"what # on the irt would they use as amber? when did you see the R110A like this? -Nick '
Since the "A" division has three colors (red,green,purple), amber doesn't really fit in. But this shows the sign has the capabilities of three colors.
Check out the back cover of the 1994 NYC Subway calendar. The R-110A's shown in 239th St. shops with circle 3 in glorious amber !
Bill "Newkirk"
Years ago, the #6 line was amber on the maps and signage ...
So was the 1.
"Check out the back cover of the 1994 NYC Subway calendar. The R-110A's shown in 239th St. shops with circle 3 in glorious amber!"
I don't have a copy of the '94 calendar...would it be possible for a shameless scan? -Nick
"I don't have a copy of the '94 calendar...would it be possible for a shameless scan? -Nick "
I have a flatbed scanner, butI am not too well versed on using it on SubTalk. I can make a color Xerox and mail it to you. If interested, please use my e-mail.
Bill "Newkirk"
The amber was suppose to be used to dispal (X), for "Out of Service". But this was RARELY used because only a handful of TO's knew about it.
Maurice, where did this word come from? As recently as 2 weeks ago, the R-110B was in the B division plan for the Manhattan Bridge flip service. Also, where are these R-10 classrooms allegedly being used? The only schoolcars I know about are R-27/R-30s
I am as curious as you as to the official TA written notice in reference to this R110B news........I believe Pitkin Yard has an R10 schoolcar.
I think the number is 3190.
"I think the number is 3190."
I hear #3189, the R-10 with the 3 - 2 seating.
Bill "newkirk"
Is this car in use? My understanding is that the training people were using only the 2 schoolcars in Concourse yard.
Don't forget about 8424 and 25 at CI Yard, as well as 8481 and 8522 at 207th Street. 3189? I wonder what will become of it if it's not being used as a School Car?
-Stef
That is correct, the number is #3189.
The other survivor is #3184.
wayne
Ahh, another question mark here....did we get official info this time, or is the R110A here to stay? -Nick
I, personally, have eard nothing official regarding the R-110A. As for the R-110B, I can only repeat what I said in a previous posting; As of 2 weeks ago, the R-110B was being planned on for B division service once the Manhattan Bridge closes and 63rd Street (V) is opened. If anyone else has seen something in writing or has heard something other than a rumor, I'd like to hear it.
"If anyone else has seen something in writing or has heard something other than a rumor, I'd like to hear it."
Me too!! -Nick
They should just put them on the 42ns St. shuttle where they two sets would run by themselves and never have to be compatible with the other equipment.
"They should just put them on the 42ns St. shuttle where they two sets would run by themselves and never have to be compatible with the other equipment."
I've always thought this would be a good idea too, Eric. With the pre-recorded announcements, they could make the shuttle very tourist-friendly too. Depending on which direction the shuttle is going, the computer could give a brief history and overview of Grand Central/Times Square, and also give the proper safety reminders just like a tram at Disney World. It would be appropriate, since the mouse does own half the square now anyways! -Nick
See the reponse I made to another thread regarding compatibility (it IS required). Also, two 5-car sets can't equip the shuttle. All they can do with them is put skirts on them, cut each set to 3 cars, and run them on the Franklin Shuttle.
And have them mess this baby up to like they did with the R68s, no way. Plus, the T/Os will need training on this car too I believe.
"They should just put them on the 42ns St. shuttle where they two sets would run by themselves and never have to be compatible with the other equipment."
You read my mind Eric! That's what I said a few months back. Remove all the computer stuff including automated station announcements. Remove cross seating and restore bench seating and just make it a like an R-62 that just bounces back and forth between two stations.
It doesn't have to run as 5 car units. Can they be run as 3 or 4 car units?
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't see why not.
> Remove cross seating and restore bench seating
Why? The transverse seating was one of the best things about those trains.
- Lyle Goldman
"Why? The transverse seating was one of the best things about those trains."
The transverse seating may have been unique for an IRT type car, but was only to test an idea much like the R-110A'S themselves. The R-142's went back to the old style seating.
Bill "Newkirk"
OH MY GOD, A HORRIBLE THOUGHT JUST CROSSED MY MIND !!!
The T.A. wants to scrap the R-110A's citing cost to make them road worthy would be too prohibitive.
Knowing a scandal in the press would happen if the public knew 10 year old subway cars costing about $1,000,000.00 each were being scrapped.
To avoid this, the T.A. doesn't scrap them, but march them into 207th St. shops. There all running gear, air conditioning and miscellaneous aparratus is stripped. All windows are covered with stainless steel plates and knuckle couplers replace curent ones.
Then they roll out of the shops showing New York something that would make Vincent Price turn in his grave.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYIIII....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
$1,000,000.00 STAINLESS STEEL RIDER CARS !!!!
Bellvue "Newkirk"
?
Oh my!!!! Say it ain't so!!!!!!!!!
-Stef
Oooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooooooooo.
While staying in Washington DC, the news reported that all electrical devices expell electromagnetic interference. There is a lot of attention going to EMI and RF (cell phone) waves going through the human body. Well, studies concluded that in DC, the highest levels of EMI was, you guessed it, the DC METRO. With an EMI measuring device, the highest levels were detected inside METRO cars. The electromagnetic force was so powerfull in some places that paperclips on the carpeted floor stood up on the train. Now, I don't think that they have proven that EMI is harmfull or otherwise, but the news suggested that everyone is being exposed in this massive experiment. I know thats carrying it to far, but can shielding be put on cars to minimize exposure to EMI on the subway?
I can tell you that in some places when I'm listening to a cassette on a walkman, there is this strong humm, sorta like around power lines.
Usually it is near a TA substation or alot of electrical cables.
I get hum on the Queens IND by the 63rd street connection, and on the F line between Sutphin and Parsons.
As almost everybody here knows, the traction motors in subway cars provide the immense physical power they do by useing very strong magnetic fields that are generated electrically.
I'm not sure how paperlips were caused to stand up from the floor either unless they were stuck into the carpeting because an attractive magnetic force would hold them down to the floor and a repulsive one would make them flip away from the source of the magnetic field and they'd rest on the floor elsewhere due to gravity.
Yes, sheilding could be installed and probably is - isn't the floor a sheet of metal beneath the carpeting etc.? Is it aluminum that works the best for magnetic field sheilding? I can't remember offhand at this hour...
-Robert King
There is a material known as "Mu metal" that is a pretty effective magnetic shield, and pretty light too. Only trouble is a) cost and b)Its shielding ability is easily dammaged by overhandling and impact.
Years and years ago, color TVs had the stuff in them, among other things. IMHO, it'd be better to shield the SOURCES, ie the motor and maybe controller, than just line everywhere with it. A bit of creative design could probbably yield a workable solution.
Or, just wait a while and the Europeans will do it. Bigger things they're tackling now are weight (particularly unsprung, which is a bad thing), and noise. Look at ADtranz's Integrated Total Drive, and the use of water cooled traction motors (which are better than air cooled for lots of reasons anyway).
Anyone know how the motors are suspended on the AEM-7s and ALP-44s? I heard a rumor they're actually body mounted (like the TGV)? Also, do those locos have radial trucks?
The effects of radio frequency energy on the human body are
quite a different discussion from Extremely Low Frequency
magnetic and electric fields such as those caused by power
lines. There was some statistical evidence that people who
lived near power lines were more susceptible to certain kinds
of cancers, but these studies were called into question because
of other variables (such as economic conditions of those living
near power lines). The fields of current NYCT subway cars are
DC, i.e. 0 frequency. They probably have little effect on the body.
They also dimish very sharply as one moves away from the motor
itself. The bulk of the field is concentrated in the iron shell
of the motor.
How many Vacuum trains are there?
....The newspaper said train_s_ last sunday.
I thought there was just one.
Dave
NYCt has one 5 car VacTrak - recently working on upper B'way on the midnights.
There also is a second VakTrak (VT 201-205) currently in testing on the Culver Line this week.
Hello all,
I have to ask you guys to stop the business about trying to figure out who might or might not have once been named "Follo". I'm not going to indicate if anyone's right or wrong, but I will say that the next time the discussion comes up everyone involved is losing their accounts. Period, the end, no more discussion. If you have a problem with someone, killfile them. That's what it's there for. I'm not looking to get involved in any legal activity over this and unfortunately that's where this is heading, fast. Let this be a word of caution: If I get *one* letter from a lawyer, or have to take one minute of my time defending this site over legal matters, IT GETS SHUT DOWN. You all lose. That's it. I'm tired of this crap. Do you all understand?
-Dave
One other thing,
After all this crap this weekend, from now on if I am going to be away from the Talks for any period longer than 24 hours posts will be disabled before I leave.
-Dave
I hope that everyone takes Dave's advice and eliminates the mudslinging. It serves no useful purpose. Nobody pays another's bills, no one (to the best of my knowledge) hangs out in the same places, and no one (again, to the best of my knowledge), is related. We are all strangers save for this site and it is a privilege to be able to use it to express our opinions about a subject of common interest. It seems to me that we could all make better use of our time if we devote more of our waking hours dedicated to the practice of being civil. As Robert F. Kennedy once said "our lives can never be made noble through acts borne out of hatred or revenge."
People may make what they wish out of what I'm saying but it would be most unfortunate if this site where to be shut down over the acts of a foolish few. As a writer, I cannot sing its praises enough for it was invaluable in its validation of observations made over the course my thirty plus years exposure to the Els of New York. In that respect my work is done but there are others who will someday write books about the New York Transit System in general and the Els in particular who will find this site most useful. To deny such future writers access to this site over petty differences would be a crime.
Therefore I ask those with axes to grind to check them at the door, to elevate the tone of this site, and make real its promise; to provide each of us with a sane and civil vehicle by which to be heard. To castigate those whose opinions are not our own is to cheapen the value of all we have to say and if there is one right that we DO NOT have it is this; to deny to others those rights and liberties we ourselves enjoy. So if this is indeed this Site's final act, let us blame no one for its end but ourselves. That said, I have but these words in closing: THANKS DAVE! FOR EVERYTHING!!
Eric Dale Smith
Dave is right. Most of us here want this board and site to stay. If someone is annoying to you or you don't like them then do not read their posts. Ignore them or killfile them. Mr Pirmann took so much and he just had to let it all out to everyone here. This is a warning to everyone. Do not post your "wrong" opinions about anybody here. That's what he's trying to say. Otherwise it will be shut down and I or anybody else here wants that to happen. I have met a lot of people due to this board and I'm not wanting to lose it for something like this. I'm not saying that you can't ask a question but if it is a repetitive question-look on past posts. That's what they're there for. Please keep this board up and running because to me it has been the best thing that has happened to me in 6 years.
Do not post your "wrong" opinions about anybody here.
That has nothing to do with it. There's no such thing as a wrong opinion (except in a nice totalitarian state). What doesn't belong here is slander and libel.
Pork: You're right that slander and libel doesn't belong on this website. A few months ago two people thought that I was "Follo" and that was NEVER the case and I was plenty upset about it at the time. I hope that Dave's message broadcasts a fair warning to EVERYBODY who posts messages on this website and that nothing like this occurs again in the future. I think that losing the website altogether would be a very bad thing. I hope that EVERYONE heeds his warning seriously and drops the "Follo" matter ALTOGETHER!
BMTJeff
Dave is so right. There is too much B.S, on this board. Let's just talk transit and leave it at that. I'd be really upset if this board was ever shut down. It's my fun time right after work when my wife is not home yet to tell me I spend too much time on the computer!
Chuck Greene
I am one of the many who do not want to see this board shut down;I was thrilled when I came across this site 4-4 1/2 years ago, and it has been an exciting part of my life since then. It would be ashame to have something so wonderful to be taken away because of a few people. To Dave-Thank you so much for this excellent service you provide!! -Nick
Dave is right, and Eric is right. If we keep up what's been happening and don't follow the request (keep it on topic) we all lose.
Cool, I personally have no idea what this "follo" thing is all about and don't especially care, either. I'd rather see this matter given a decent christian burial and forgotten then see the whole site go down!!! 10-4 says Thomas. Peace, Thomas :)
What the hell? Can someone discreetly e-mail some info about what the f%$# has got Dave so PO'ed this time?
Dave's very legitimately upset, IMHO. 'Nuff said.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Dave, you are absolutely right about the "Follo" matter. I don't want to see ANYONE get into trouble over the "Follo" matter. A few months back two people thought that I was "Follo" and I had changed my handle to BMTJeff. Those messages got me very upset at the time. The truth of the matter is that I NEVER used "Follo" as my handle and I've ALWAYS used BMTJeff as my handle ever since I posted messages regularly on this website. I hope that your message closes this matter once and for all and there will be no further messages posted about who was "Follo" whatsoever. I think your message is providing a timely warning to all "SubTalk"ers and hopefully the website can continue for many more years ahead.
Jeff Alterman a.k.a.(BMTJeff)
And so has my ox been gored on here on many occasions -- being accused of "racism" without my implying race, and the user of that word not having explained why he used it, thinking that its use alone was enough to shut me up. Well, it didn't, and much of the time and energy I spent on this board was wasted in shutting those up whose flimsy attacks could better be construed as slanderous than implying some anonymous soul is somebody called Follo. As a result, I rarely post anymore. How dare I have a contrary opinion? Should I have called a lawyer?
And so have I seen terms and viewpoints that have caused infighting and have no place on a rapid transit discussion forum, such as "knuckle dragger," the "Rich Jews of Forest Hills [trumping the rights of the Chinese in Manhattan]," why sweatshops are immoral, and endless threads about Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, George Bush, and the rest of "the usual gang of idiots," just to name the merest few that have shoved me away from spending more time on here.
We should do this board's members, and Dave, its owner, a favor by keeping sociopolitical commentary off this board to the greatest extent possible. At the very least, if we are going to present such a viewpoint as it relates to many transit-oriented topics, make damn sure we can support it with facts, and not just emotional rhetoric or politically correct polemic.
This board represents fun time. For all of us. It can remain so if we just remember why it is we are here, and check our politics and our personalities at the door.
Submitted with the utmost respect.
"This board represents fun time. For all of us. It can remain so if we just remember why it is we are here, and check our politics and our personalities at the door."
You don't have to check your personality at the door - it's part of what identifies you and makes you unique. Having a personality and being respectful of others is possible in the same post.
Having said that, I welcome your invitation.
As a rule, I do not get involved in the mud slinging that occurs on this post. But I must respond to this. I agree with you 100%. It is about time that somebody put a stop to all the negative postings and name calling. The same thing needs to be applied on Subtalk. I wont mention any names, but I'll just say its between people on the east coast vs. people on the west coast. Some of those postings are just down right repulsive.
I have learned more in the two years I have been reading messages on this post, than the 20 someodd years of going to ERA meetings, fan trips, different transit museums. It would be a disgrace to see ANY part of the NYCSUBWAY.ORG website disappear.
You are right. I've been snubbed a number of times over the last few months and I don't like it very much. It annoys me that some people can say whatever they want about some people when they disagree with them. I had run ins with one "SubTalk"er who shall remain nameless. He didn't like something that I said about something one time and I received a reply that was distasteful. After a few more nasty messages from the same person I finally had to post a message to him to tell him to stop his negative rhetoric against me. He finally got the message and settled down after that. Most of the time however I've had very few problems with many of the people whom I've had contact with. Unfortunately it only takes one bad apple to spoil the entire barrel. Let's hope that the bad ones stay off "SubTalk" so that it can continue into the forseeable future.
BMTJeff
I try to stay out of the mudslinging as well. For the most part, my experience has been positive. I've brushed off a few posts which may have been a bit bristling. It's not worth my time or energy to get into "shouting matches". I get the feeling I offended one of our regulars a while back when I compared a colleague of his to a politician out in these parts, as they had similar names. He hasn't "spoken" to me since, and I am indeed sorry if I did offend him. I have resorted to using killfile after some very disturbing comments made by a few individuals earlier.
Thank you Far Rock. Well put.
BTW, please contact me....I lost your e-mail address, and wanted to contact you awhile back...
BMTman
no prob, you have my word!
Amtrak was offering full refunds to Boston-Bound passengers at NYP, and a train from Boston to DC was supplemented with a short train with no food service car (they specifically mentioned this). On MNRR's side, they were directing New Haven line riders to the Harlem Line, at White Plains there was a shuttle bus to Rye for continuing service. Passengers south of Rye could take a diesel special train to Pelham for shuttle buses to Rye making all stops. At Rye they could get the same train to New Haven that the people who went via White Plains would get. Southbound passengers had a similar arrangement.
Where exactly was the problem?
It was at New Rochelle.
But what happened? Did the wires break loose from their housing due to high wind or did a train cause it? I recall a similar problem happening in New Rochelle where the wires snapped over one of the tracks causing big problems on the New Haven Line a few years ago. If it happened only over one track, why would it affect all four tracks?
<< If it happened only over one track, why would it affect all four tracks? >>
Wire is laying across the four tracks, I heard.
This isn't the first time a Metro-North train has pulled down wires at New Rochelle recently. That's relatively new catenary there, this shouldn't be happening this often. Is there something special that makes that area prone to this kind of accident?
It's a big bit of interlocking, and they've been doing a lot of work in the area. I have no clue either why this happened, but it did. Could have been a bad pan, or the previous repair (remember they had a rush hour and a friday to contend with then). Or just a fluke (they happen too).
"Say, aren't you the one I had that other um- er, "misunderstanding" with several days ago regarding a previous posting about those "rushing to judge" those others also "rushing to judge" in wake of that recent derailment? I really do hope you havn't been hawk-eyeing all of my posts simply to sharpshoot and proofread them! If so, then DO TELL as if you'll remember, Thomas the Subway Engine says "No one likes a tease" (!) Peace, Thomas:/"
thomas, yes i do remember that discussion. And despite your own feelings of self-importance, I have no intent to proof-read each and every post you make. Frankly my time is too valuable and you simply ain't that important or clever. I would like to point something out though. After you posted your question about the 6-wheel trucks, mine was the third post in response to the post. The first two were both to the point, both telling you that you were wrong. Mine was the 3rd in response to your post. However, mine was the only one that cited facts and a source for those facts. Despite that, mine was the only one that you took issue with. Why, thomas? Now I'm not a psycologist but that must say something about your personality, don't you think? Just like you call me to task about an obvious type-o (sloop instead of sleep) and yet you whine like a baby when I call you to task for saying that you saw an R-16 on the IRT mainline. Now if you feel that I'm a tease because you posted something about a subject you obviously know nothing about, and I called you on the errors, the solution is simple. Post only when you know what you are talking about. Oh, but then we may not hear from you as often. Peace, Steve
I know that the next class will start on 2/26; does anyone know when future classes are scheduled to begin?
When I went for the urine test two weeks ago they said sometime in April and another in May.
Out of 20-25 people that got orientation with me about 5 walked out and anther 5 said they would defer so numbers are rolling up fairly quickly. I think I am the second or third class from the list and we are past 260 already.
Now where can I get engineer boots in EEE width?
Out of curiosity, how long did it take to get the call, to complete new-hire procedures, and what did you make on the exam? Thomas:)
I think this was directed at me?
I got a 97.43 on the test which was OK becasue I think 2 questions got tossed and the whole shebang took less than 3 weeks after my pee test.
A confrontation in the Amtrak terminal Sunday evening, broken up by Amtrak police, apparently reconvened at the Metro station. Story in Monday's Washington Post.
As of 2Pm two arrests were made. WTOP raido said it was gang related. The gang wanted the kids shoes.
About 10:30 this morning, Presidents' Day, riding a Queens-bound F towards Roosevelt Island, I heard a very clear announcement, "Next stop, Roosevelt Island. This is not Roosevelt Avenue. Stay on for Roosevelt Avenue." Smart!
The E-F-R detour folders I picked up neglected to mention that Manhattan-bound one-train shuttle service was being provided from Queensbridge to the Broadway BMT (57th Street?). At Roosevelt Island and Queensbridge 20 or 30 people were awaiting that shuttle.
Fifty-seventh and Sixth had the southbound side roped off.
Lexington and 53rd had the eastbound side roped off.
Most stations had platform helpers. In my opinion, most needed on northbound Sixth Avenue, where I heard people wanting to go to 53rd & Lex.
I rode the E train this morning and got off at 7th Avenue. I happend to go downstairs to see if they roped off the Queensbound platform, (they did). There were a lot of confused people who wanted to get to Queens and didn't understand they needed to take the D or B to 50th and 6th. Others didn't know how they were going to get home tonite. I didn't see anyone from the TA advising passengers as to what to do.
Were there posters on the platform advising them what to do?
The posters were pasted all over the place. The same ones we have seen in stations throughout the system. The problem is if people don't bother to read them, they become worthless.
I went home last night and took an E out of 50th and 6th. No one seemed confused so by last night everyone must have figured out what was going on. It was my first ride through the connector since it opened last month. I was wierd leaving 21st Street and next seeing 36th Street without passing through Queens Plaza. No delays from a merging R train so the timing was good.
WHy doesnt the NYCTA install passenger alarms in every car like PATH?
That was be a very nice feature to have in the event of a emergency. True there would be false alarms but it should benefit passengers.
Second, is it possible to install rubber curtains to keep passenger from injury when crossing cars? Like the ones most communter railroads have?
They had them on the J. Too many false alarms delayed service.
In Decembre, the shortest commuter line in the US opened along the Rt. 7 corridor near Burlington VT. The service was activated due to impending construction projects along Rt. 7 Well so far the service has been a smashing sucess with 1700 monthly riders and the road construction isn't even set to begin for 2 more months. One possible reason for the sucess is that the service is currently FREE OF CHARGE. After the road work starts the fare will be raised to $1.00
(Gee, if VT commuter rail can work for $1, why not the vastly more popular PATH?)
Don't you wish YOUR state could be as forward thinking as Vermont?
"Gee, if VT commuter rail can work for $1, why not the vastly more popular PATH?)"
I'd lay down some money that $1 isn't covering the costs of the operation. If 1,700 people take 45 trips each per month, that's revenue of $76,500 per month. Even if ridership quadruples once construction starts, that's just a shade over $300K.
From a taxpayer's perspective, I have no doubt the true costs of this project were buried deep within a highway construction budget, and didn't look so high when they were spread over a 10 or 15 year bond payback period.
From a railfan perspective, it's pretty neat and I'll have to make a side trip to see it in operation next time I'm up north.
CG
VT is the most progressive state in the union, and also the most anti-sprawl. I once stayed at the home of the woman (a friend of a friend's ex-girlfriend's mother) who kept Wal-mart out of VT (her husband is a senator) while driving through the state and getting stranded in Montpelier in a blizzard, and she is in quite the mainstream thought. No sprawl in VT is the mantra. They would gladly subsidize a train, if it retains their small town character. If VT were ever to become urban, they would demand transit so as not to depend on cars. In most towns you can still walk most anywhere you need to go. The state pays Amtrak a subsidy to run the Vermonter. Burlington's commuter rail (and it's fare) don't surpruse me at all.
Sounds like one place has people with smarts. Or is that because so many came from areas like big cities and suburbs where they saw what excessive car use can do, likewise sprawl. Walking and cycling around town is a gift so few use. Good for you and doesn't pollute.
Too bad the Gallatin Valley in Montana doesn't share that. I'm sure the poulation bewteen Bozeman and Manhattan far exceeds the area in thought in Vermont..I'd say 50,000, and like most places cars rule.Yes, there is a Manhattan Montana, also a Harlem.
That may be 1700 riders for the entire month.
When I rode it (free) in December, there were about a dozen+ people on the first train of the evening. When I finished the round-trip, I stayed at the station for a few minutes to see if the second train was any better. Again, about a dozen+ riders. On that cold day, my experience indicates about 70/day (with a few on the reverse peak directions), or about 1500/month.
Still, they should stick with it. The interstate runs to the north and to the east (the lake is to the west). The Flyer runs to the south where there is just a small road that necks down to 2 lanes. It will no doubt build over time, assuming the affluent suburbs won't allow an expanded road.
Rather then scrap some cars with life still in them, could we not:
1) Paint some school bus yellow, to be used for students only.
The yellow color would serve to warn off other passengers.
2) Paint some Black, to be used as funeral cars for former
politians and Transit officals. Formal functions could use the
cars as well.
3) Paint some white for weddings and Proms.
4) Paint some Green, to be used for the many ethnic holidays that
involve drinking. The green color would be a sickening color to
warn off regular riders these trains may have sick drunks on
board.
5) We must restore the Yankees and mets trains, and create some
for the Knicks and Rangers.
Please feel free to jump in with other suggestions.
avid
Strip them down to reveal the numerous
paint-over coats.. and let them run bare
as a show of diversity??
They would then qualify for Lightweight rail status!
avid
What if any similarities exists between the two types?
If the R/110a is scraped, could any components be used to re-activate the R110Bs that are currently serving the cannible needs of the on track set? Were they both from the same manufacture? Is any of the hardware the same? Windows, doors, seats , gizmos, whatchamacallits and dohickies? I guess these questions need a familiar and technically competant person.
avid
Some of your questions are addressed elsewhere in this website. Go to the "Rolling Stock" section.
I was waiting for the Q30 Bus on archer avenue by the armory. I usually watch the LIRR Trains as they slow down to head into Jamaica station. Usually Diesel Trains heade westbound in the morning have a Cab car and a DE30 on the Tail end. Anyway, I saw a Diesel train with two DE30's heade towards LIC. The front was 406 and the back was 410. This was interesting. Uusually LIRR only has one DE30 on a Diesel Train unless it is a Dual mode headed towards penn station.
While waiting at Hicksville for a bus I saw an even wierder sight, a single engine (old diesel, numbered 624 I think) move down the middle track and head west.
It was strange to see an engine alone. Betcha those things can speed, is there ASC on those old things??
I imagine a single engine or car can stop fairly quickly, so they can manuever faster.
If there's an engine at both ends, it probably was the Cannonball returning from Montauk. Though I have no idea why it would be long enough to require two engines, it only needs the extra when it runs 13 cars during the summer.
They may have a shortage of working control cab cars and used an engine instead.
Anyway, a while back I posted about a 3 car Oyster Bay train with 2 engines, despite the fact that the last car was a control cab.
These questions may have been posted beforehand, if they have I am sorry, and in case it has not:
A) What's the purpose of gaps in the third rail?
B) When the Dual Contract Els were built (INCLUDING the re-build of original els), were the target type signals from GRS installed with the 1915-1917 construction or was this a slightly later addition?
C) Why was the Fulton El left in it's original form (not upgraded to handle all steel equipment) along Pitkin Avenue?
Thanks!
What's the purpose of gaps in the third rail?
Switches, intersections and changes in side.
When the Dual Contract Els were built (INCLUDING the re-build of original els), were the target type signals from GRS installed with the 1915-1917 construction or was this a slightly later addition?
If they're still there, then no, since there are no signals that old. What do you mean by target type signals anyway?
Why was the Fulton El left in it's original form (not upgraded to handle all steel equipment) along Pitkin Avenue?
The Fulton El was along Liberty Avenue. The reason is that it could have been upgraded, but where would it go? The Ashland Place connection that would have brought it into the DeKalb complex was never built.
Your response doesn't explain the many areas of gaps in the third rail without any switches, or station platforms or intersections. In fact, most are on regular straight run sections of track. There must be another reason.
By 'target-type', I am referring to a signal with a three-color aspect:
GREEN
YELLOW
RED
The GRS signals that were found along BRT lines date at least from the 1920s. This was of course, an after install, since the fixed block technology did not exist at the time of the original el's contruction (1880s).
The Fulton El did indeed run along Pitkin Avenue, from Snediker Avenue to Euclid Avenue (ERA reference, 4/74).
The outer reaches of the Fulton El along Liberty Avenue were upgraded, and the section along Fulton Street was upgraded (both to three track, heavy duty standards). Why wasn't the section of Fulton El along PITKIN AVENUE rebuilt?
Regarding the third rail gaps:
They are there so that individual sections of the third rail can be shut off without cutting off the power supply to an entire line, for example.
There are also more practical consdierations such as the length of each section of third rail and the inefficiencey of useing it to distribute electricity to trains over long distances (it is 6 times more resistant to electricity than copper wire) from each substation.
Also, the more trains pulling power from a given section of third rail requires the substation(s) feeding it to be of large enough capacity which has its own complications: at one time substation equipment was rather large so in many cases it was easier to build several smaller substations rather than go to the trouble of finding a large enough plot of real estate near a subway line to build a single large one.
-Robert King
Excellent explanation!
However, I have noticed that many sections of divided/gapped third rail merely cable to the next section, e.g., there is no 'new' feed of power, it is coming from the other part of the third rail. You can see the cables running from the end of one section of third rail to the next section, so there is no 'new' feed of power.
In addition, why is the length of a gap almost exactly 75 to 80 feet in most cases?
If the purpose of a gap is to isolate power from one section to another, it can be 4 feet (the gapped part of the tracks), for example, of no third rail, why such a long section?
We were told on the CTA that the short gaps allowed track workers to isolate segments of a section to work on the third rail, allowing that a train might coast through the segment being worked on.
Section gaps on the CTA are 50ft at least so as not to be bridged by the shoes at each ends of a car. Since NYC cars are longer, the gaps between sections must be longer.
I've wondered about section gaps on , say the South Shore interurban. Their trains are train lined--that is if any pantograph on an eight car train contacts the catenary, the whole train is energized.
David Harrison
Thank you. Your message makes perfect sense....the section of third rail is to be isolated, and must be LONG enough so as not to have any contact with a MU car. Now I see why on TA trackage, it's usually at least 75' long (B Division).
Yeah, because if car 8 of an 8-car train has one shoe on an energized section and the forward shoe on a dead one, The current for the entire train will be passing through that one car, easily surpassing the capacity of the car's internal wires.
Thought it might interest you to know that the original IRT High Voltge equipment [1904-1915] had bus jumpers between cars and if one shoe were on the 3rd rail the entire train was energized. None of the fun momentary blinking off of lights on gaps. As much as I liked those trains
ns I guess I'm glad I never had to make up one of those trains and plug those bus jumpers in considering proximity to grounds evrywhere, especially the car body and rails!
They had Section Break signals at one time where a train would have to stop if power were removed from a section of 3rd rail, if one of these trains ran into such a section it would re-energize the dead section with possibly disastrous circumstances.
OTOH my LIRR shop friend told me their Low-Voltage [control] equipment had bus jumpers because of gaps at road crossings.
London Underground uses third rail gap signals to this day as you describe.
Your response doesn't explain the many areas of gaps in the third rail without any switches, or station platforms or intersections. In fact, most are on regular straight run sections of track. There must be another reason.
I think that there is a limit to how long the rail can be. There could also be the need to have the rail separate from another part of rail, allowing the smallest possible part of rail to be turned off in emergencies, or for track work.
By 'target-type', I am referring to a signal with a three-color aspect:
GREEN
YELLOW
RED
The GRS signals that were found along BRT lines date at least from the 1920s. This was of course, an after install, since the fixed block technology did not exist at the time of the original el's contruction (1880s).
How is this different from a normal signal? Or is it the same?
The Fulton El did indeed run along Pitkin Avenue, from Snediker Avenue to Euclid Avenue (ERA reference, 4/74).
Why does the spur from the south end of the L Atlantic station point at Liberty?
The outer reaches of the Fulton El along Liberty Avenue were upgraded, and the section along Fulton Street was upgraded (both to three track, heavy duty standards). Why wasn't the section of Fulton El along PITKIN AVENUE rebuilt?
The outer end was built during the dual contracts era, and thus was already built to heavier standards.
As for the lack of upgrading, the same reason stands. Perhaps they were rebuilding the el, and then realized there would be nothing to connect to and gave it up.
Your response doesn't explain the many areas of gaps in the third rail without any switches, or station platforms or intersections. In fact, most are on regular straight run sections of track. There must be another reason.
--I think that there is a limit to how long the rail can be. There could also be the need to have the rail separate from another part of rail, allowing the smallest possible part of rail to be turned off in emergencies, or for track work.
Good point. But then why is the gapped section usually at least 70 feet? Why not just 1, 2, 3 or 4 feet, for example?
By 'target-type', I am referring to a signal with a three-color aspect:
GREEN
YELLOW
RED
The GRS signals that were found along BRT lines date at least from the 1920s. This was of course, an after install, since the fixed block technology did not exist at the time of the original el's contruction (1880s).
--How is this different from a normal signal? Or is it the same?
A "normal" signal is a target type. Normal being defined as a typical subway - elevated signal. Abnormal would be a semaphore signal....unadaptable in subway tunnels due to clearances.
The Fulton El did indeed run along Pitkin Avenue, from Snediker Avenue to Euclid Avenue (ERA reference, 4/74).
--Why does the spur from the south end of the L Atlantic station point at Liberty?
Various connections were constructed during the Dual Contracts days. These connections incorporated the original Fulton Street El and Dual Contracts El rebuilding. This included the rebuilding of the Fulton El. The track maps of the time indicated a multitude of tracks from Atlantic Avenue to Pitkin Avenue. The spur you refer to was a southbound connection from Atlantic Avenue to Snediker Avenue. The elevated track originated over Vesta (now Van Sinderen) Avenue. It then lined up with the elevated track over Snediker Avenue, and went down to Pitkin Avenue, for the Fulton El's run to Grant Avenue/City Line, and then Queens. The "S" curve was for grade seperation.
May I suggest "The Tracks Of New York, Number 2, Brooklyn Elevated Railroads - 1910" By Alan Paul Kahn and Jack May, which is a wonderful, detailed reference on Brooklyn Elevateds. This is an ERA publication.
The outer reaches of the Fulton El along Liberty Avenue were upgraded, and the section along Fulton Street was upgraded (both to three track, heavy duty standards). Why wasn't the section of Fulton El along PITKIN AVENUE rebuilt?
--The outer end was built during the dual contracts era, and thus was already built to heavier standards.
--As for the lack of upgrading, the same reason stands. Perhaps they were rebuilding the el, and then realized there would be nothing to connect to and gave it up.
Odd that a certain section would not have been rebuilt. If it had, it would have provided a second possible terminal for today's "J" and "L" trains.
The type of signal you are calling a "target" signal is in
fact called a color-light signal. A target is a plate painted
green and red or green and yellow that is attached to a hand-thrown
switch to indicate position. I know of only one such on a main
line track (there are many in the yards) of the current NYCT system.
Color-light signals came into use during the dual contracts, although
the Centre Street subway of the BRT probably had them when new
as well. Prior to this the standard was semaphore signals outdoors,
either electrically, pneumatically or pipeline operated. The local
tracks were generally not signalled until after 1912 when the PSC
put pressure on both the IRT and BRT to do so. Prior to that
Manhattan elevated locals were able to run absurd headways...about
60 seconds. The IRT originally used a modified semaphore signal
in the original 1904 subway.
Prior [installation of block signals] to that Manhattan elevated locals were able to run absurd headways...about 60 seconds.
What is "absurd" about 60 second headways? They did not result in an accident rate significantly greater than that experienced with headways two and three times greater under block signal "protection".
Block signal technology by itself did not limit headways; it was their application to the existing context. Block signals installed on the Brooklyn Bridge after cessation of cable operation still permitted 60 second headways. It could be done prior to WWI. It could still be done today, if there were sufficient incentive.
Well, absurd as in were you to suggest that to the TA today,
that's what it would be considered.
Are you sure about the accident rate? The PSC mandate followed
several years worth of fatal rear-end collisions on the els in
which several passengers where killed. Prior to this, there were
no train controls (not even Chicago-style sight boards) and
the rule was simply "try not to hit the next train". The first
signals were installed on curves.
One thing to remember about 60 tph operation is that there were
a lot more personnel involved. Think about a 5 car el train.
There was basically a person there to supervise loading and unloading
at every doorway (gate). In the subway the IRT employed platform
agents to control passenger flow and to separate exiting traffic
into a completely different stairway to the street.
Are you sure about the accident rate? The PSC mandate followed several years worth of fatal rear-end collisions on the els in which several passengers where killed.
I said accident rate not fatality rate. The signal system is supposed to avoid collisions. A fender-bender has the same weight as a fatal accident as a measure of a signal system's effectiveness.
One thing to remember about 60 tph operation is that there were a lot more personnel involved. Think about a 5 car el train. There was basically a person there to supervise loading and unloading at every doorway (gate).
Clearly, a 5 gate car el train required 5 operating personnel. I don't see any relationship between this fact and 60 tph operation other than doors/gates must be closed in a timely manner. This can be accomplished faster in practice, if the door closings are individually controlled rather than having all the doors close at once. There are ways to provide such idividual control without resort to having one operator for every two gates.
In the subway the IRT employed platform agents to control passenger flow and to separate exiting traffic into a completely different stairway to the street.
I've always felt that NYCT does not give sufficient attention to passenger flow within the stations and platforms. Most foreign systems do have completely separate paths for entering and exiting passengers. This does provide for speedier operation.
I said accident rate not fatality rate.
Nonetheless, on what figures is your claim based that the accident
rate after signalling was comparable to that before?
Clearly, a 5 gate car el train required 5 operating personnel. I don't see any relationship between this fact and 60
tph operation
You have an authority figure present, in person, at every loading
point to direct the passengers. I doubt there was much "door"
holding during the gate car days. Then again there was a lot more
respect for such authority figures and they were a little tougher.
Read a pre-war rulebook and see how it instructs employees, when
ejecting passengers, not to be too violent :)
Btw, it would be 4 people
for a 5-car train: 1 motorman and 3 gatemen. The front and
rear gates of the train were not used for passengers.
Btw, it would be 4 people for a 5-car train: 1 motorman and 3 gatemen. The front and rear gates of the train were not used for passengers.
motorman
gateman between cars 1 & 2
gateman between cars 2 & 3
gateman between cars 3 & 4
gateman between cars 4 & 5
Ooops, fencepost error.
Nonetheless, on what figures is your claim based that the accident rate after signalling was comparable to that before?
I don't pretend that this is rigorous but simply by scanning through the NY Times Index for the years in question. Accidents have not been eliminated with the introduction of signals tied to the brakes. Their numbers appear to be comparable a few per year.
I doubt there was much "door" holding during the gate car days.
I would not have thought so but most of the case law involving the rights of customers to enter and leave trains come from the gate car days.
You have an authority figure present, in person, at every loading point to direct the passengers.
Could those iron gates that used to be present on the IRT platforms constitute such an "authority figure"?
I don't pretend that this is rigorous but simply by scanning through the NY Times Index for the
years in question. Accidents have not been eliminated with the introduction of signals tied to the
brakes. Their numbers appear to be comparable a few per year.
That's accidents that get reported in the lay press. A better source
would probably be the annual PSC reports which list all accidents.
To say that introducing a block signal system with train stops had
no significant effect on reducing accident rate is a strong statement
that would appear to fly in the face of traditional railway
common sense.
Could those iron gates that used to be present on the IRT platforms constitute such an "authority figure"?
They were operated by an IRT employee, no? Unless you mean
something else.
Regardless, the point is that more orderly loading and unloading
was achieved in the past, but at the expense of much more employees
per train and per platform, and evidently enough passenger frustration
at being told what to do that it resulted in legal action.
They were operated by an IRT employee, no?
Not always.
Unless you mean something else.
It's amazing that of all the pictures on the web, I can't find one of these platform structures. They were on most of the heavily used IRT stations. They went with the LV's because they lined up with the end doors. They permitted passengers to stand at the platform edge in safety, provided a queuing area for waiting passengers and kept the doorway clear. It also encouraged passengers to enter through the vestibule doors and to leave through the center door.
Regardless, the point is that more orderly loading and unloading was achieved in the past, but at the expense of much more employees per train and per platform
I think that careful facility design can provide more order without recourse to more employees.
If you mean those cages at the end doors, I've seen a picture.
I thought there was a picture in the "IRT" book, but no. These
things must have been added after the subway was opened.
I think that careful facility design can provide more order without recourse to more employees
I respectfully disagree. I think if, given the chance to do
a ground-up re-design, you certainly could achieve better results.
With the existing platform sizes and layouts there's not much that
can be done. Hence you see the increased deployment of platform
conductors at busy stations.
These things must have been added after the subway was opened.
They were definitely not original equipment.
Hence you see the increased deployment of platform conductors at busy stations.
Actually, my own quantitative measurements indicate that they increase dwell time rather than decrease it.
>>> They went with the LV's because they lined up with the end doors. <<<
They must have gone long before the LV's because I do not remember seeing them in the ‘40s or 50's. On some narrow downtown platforms there were rails along the edge with openings where the car doors were, but no gates that I can remember.
Tom
They must have gone long before the LV's because I do not remember seeing them in the ‘40s or 50's.
They were definitely present at Grand Central in 1958. They had vanished from the West Side by then.
On some narrow downtown platforms there were rails along the edge with openings where the car doors were, but no gates that I can remember.
GC is not a narrow platform. Perhaps my use of "gate" is not correct. However, there was a chain that the track conductor would raise, when there was no train in the station. These structures were anchored at both the top and bottom and were much sturdier than the barriers that are/were present at the ends of the #7 Grand Central Platform.
Wow! Hand-thrown signals in the yards?
I apologize if I am offending anyone present, but isn't the most important task of a hand-thrown signal (or switch, for that matter) the preservation of somebody obsolete job description (and the prevention of the reallocation of personnel to more useful tasks)?
He said there's only one. I'm sure that nobody ever bothered to uprgade it because it's rarely used.
Correction noted.
Hand throws are appropriate in the yard where you aren't holding
up main line traffic. They don't really create or preserve extra
jobs, usually the motorman has to climb off the train to throw
the switch. They do eliminate capital expense of installing a
power-operated switch machine, control wires, and appropriate
control apparatus in a tower, which includes a track circuit to
prevent the machine from being operated under a train.
Thanks. Misimpression corrected.
However, being handthrown also could mean the tower doesn't necessarily know which way it is set (unless there is a detection circuit) right?
There are so-called dual control switch machines available
that can be either tower-operated or overridden on the ground
with a hand-throw. I don't believe NYCT has any of these.
It is also common on the big RRs to use a "circuit controller"
box in conjunction with a hand-thrown switch to provide some
sort of signal indication that the switch is thrown (simplest
is to just shunt the track). Again, I don't think NYCT has any
examples of these, but I'm not sure. Maybe EngineBrake the yard
dog has some info.
To my knowledge only tower operators were trained and authorized to hand crank switches. I believe it could be done on NYCT but if we're on the same wavelength I don't recall any such switches on NYCT..but ehn if they could be hand cranked they must have had some potential for it. I did see some on the CTA that looked like the switches I'm thinking about. I operated enough of them inmy years with BN and MRL.We'd get dispatcher permission to hand operate the switch, unlock it, and put the selector to "hand" and use a big lever to throw it.Then restore it to power and lock it up when done.
There's a big difference between a hand-throw switch and
hand-cranking. The former is designed to be thrown by hand
and has a large handle or lever of some sort. The switch you described on the BN is a dual-control which can be either hand or power operated. Those switches can also be given electric locking
to disable the hand-throw ability if the tower disallows it or
track conditions would make it unsafe.
Hand-cranking happens when a power-only switch fails. You open
up the case, disconnect the air or electric supply, then
insert a crank handle into the mechnanism and you become the
switch motor. Takes a good 20 cranks or so to get the points
over, and the last few cranks are the tough ones! On
NYCT, only signal maintainers are allowed to
hand-crank.
Not to mention that someone would also have to maintain all of the switch machines, creating an additional job...
As Mr. H said there is rarely someone employed whose sole job is to throw HO (Hand Operated) switches. This job is not unheard of, they are called Switchtenders and you'll see them being used to save on the cost of interlocking.
Most target signals are reflective pieves of coloured metal, however some RR's still spring for the ones with an electric lantern and colour lenses. One example is at the main Reading and Northern Yard at Port Clinton PA.
The short gaps are called expansion gaps because the 3rd rail does expand and contract with temp. change. There are expansion gaps every 1000 feet on a straight peice of rail. Longer gaps are section gaps, on the IRT those gaps are no less then 40 feet. On the BMT & IND the section gap can be no less then 60 feet. The gaps around switches are so the shoe can pick up the 3rd rail as it crosses over from one track to another.
According to MTH's shipping schedule updated today, The R21's will be shipped on June 15, 2001 this will be nice as I am constructing a transit (Subway/"L") layout
John, what technique are you using? I spent the better part of this past weekend building an El structure for my 4-track main line. After the last 3 days I've netted about 5 feet of 4-track structure.
Keep up the good work Train Dude! There are many techniques for building a model El. Check out the references that I provided on Pat Villani's "Modeling the New York City Subway" wesite at www.monmouth.com/~patv. In HO, I built an extensive El using basswood and cardstock. This was based on Robert Olsen's O scale method using door skin plywood. Today, you could make a very nice O scale El using Atlas (HO scale) girders sold as flatcar loads combined with Plastruct members. The only drawback would be expense.
The great EL modeler Joe Frank once spent over $200 (in 1980's dollars) for a four foot long three track El section using Plastruct.
You might also try casting your own girders if you are an accomplished modeler. You can make the master patterns from styrene, embossing the rivets with a Northwest short Line Riveter or even a "pounce" wheel in thin 0.005" styrene. The girders can be cast in Alumilite, a polyurethane resin that is easy to work with. If you want to go this way, check out Eric Bronsky's articles in the aforementioned references. Whatever method you use, the use of jigs to assemble your work will help to make things fo faster. I got to the point in my HO modeling where I could build a four foot section of El in about six to eight hours. Good Luck!
Frank, I was going to thank you for the link but after viewing those masterpieces, I feel like a complete amature. Oh well !!!!!
Thanks for the kind words! Please keep at it. You don't have to build "masterpieces" to enjoy model trains! Hey, I forgot to mention that a very simple way of building an El is to use Atlas HO girders supported by Lionel #111 trestle bents. This was done a few years ago for a cover of "Classic Toy Trains" that featured an article on the Lionel GG-1. It looked great! Maybe you can contact Kalmbach at www.classtrain.com and see if this back-issue is available. BTW, I received the pilot model of the MTH R-21 for review over the weekend. GO RIGHT OUT AND PLACE YOUR ORDERS NOW if you haven't already. This is the NICEST mass-produced model subway car ever made! The body is close to a fine scale model! You guys are going to be drooling!!!
Thanks Frank. I intend to keep going with the layout. I'm actually having too much fun to stop. Besides, my granddaughters love it. As for the R-21s, I've had my set on order since they first appeared in the catalog. I hope that MTH gets an overwhelming response with this model so more are forthcoming in Railking.
Not bad progress, really-- I'll be doing the same kind of thing with about 30 feet of a 2-track structure-- just building it a piece at a time using LOTS of sheet styrene I got from a friend in the printing business -- they use it for outdoor posters. BTW, Dude I'll scan you my track plan tonight but I'll have to take photos - mostly benchwork but most of the subway "tunnel" (like a shelf with an upper shelf detailed like a street and well lit from above while the "tunnel" is dimly lit using "rice" bulbs) is in place. I am for the most part a railroad buff but find that O gauge tinplate ideally lends itself to heavy transit modelling. Sharp curves, stations close together, sparks flying out, well you get the picture. On my honeymoon, as ny wife and I were going through one of the magnificent grand junctions on the Chicago Loop, I remarked "this looks like a real life Lionel set up" and it does.
From: News and Views | City Beat | Saturday, February 17, 2001 Coney I. Park to Mets
Farm Team
Some clips from the article:
A city panel gave the keys to a minor league ballpark in Coney Island to a New York Mets farm team yesterday. The panel's vote signals the return of professional baseball to Brooklyn for the first time since the Dodgers left Ebbets Field 44 years ago.
The first pitch from a Brooklyn Cyclones hurler will come June 25.
Hevesi, a mayoral candidate, had never commented during the years of controversy surrounding the $39 million Brooklyn ballpark and the $79 million stadium for the Yankees' farmhands on Staten Island. Construction at the ballparks, pushed by Mayor Giuliani, is nearing completion.
So is this true? The stadium will be open by this summer? I thought it was 2002, and that when they had demolished the Thunderbolt last fall, they were in the process of clearing the land to begin construction. (I know the rollercoaster was not in the spot the stadium was to be built, but still, in the pictures on the news, and other pictures of Steeplechase Park I saw in the last few months (including the bus roadeo), it was still flat and undeveloped. How did they put up a whole stadium so fast? (Or is the first pitch to be at another stadium or something?)
The roller coaster was situated just beyond the outfield wall of the stadium. It would have looked lovely sitting there all dilapidated and falling apart. Work on the stadium started early last year so it's almost done. The schedule is set and opening day is set for June 24th. Lets Go Mets (Or the Cyclones)
A team in Brooklyn again----after 44 years. Great! There are those of us who remember that we Brooklyn fans were the most rabid fans of all. Except those damn Brooklyn people who followed the Yankees---traitors!!!!!
What are you talking about. You lived in Astoria as a kid, and the closest team to you was the Yankees just over the Triboro Bridge.
And Long Island City. But I spent an inordinate amount of time at my various uncles and aunts places in Brooklyn. A person in Queens, then with no major league team, identified with one of the boroughs that did. I identified with Brooklyn, the Giants fans with Manhattan, and your ugh Yankee fans with the Bronx. But now my old homeland has a real big league team that I treasure, the METS!!!!!
Here's a picture of the stadium from November 19, 2000, Thunderbolt's fateful weekend. In my heart, the team will always be the Queens Kings, though :). (What's wrong with Brooklyn Kings, anyway?? It's King's County!)
Today there was a R-40S on the West End Line. Are the R-40S's going back to the West End? They've been on the Brighton Express for awhile now. I was told they were moved to the Q because they needed some modification done, and the Q doesn't run on weekends. It gave them time to work. I don't know if this is true, but I got used to the R-40S's on the Brighton line. I wonder if they're going to juggle equipment when the south side of the bridge opens. I assume the TA has purchased new roller signs. I know the current trains don't have a "V" or "W" marker.
Only the R-68 doesn't have the V and W sign.
Maybe the R68 doesn't have W signs, but it does have V signs. Twice I spotted R68 cars on the D train with side signs displaying V signs.
As I said before, in cases where the "Q" doesn't run, (weekends, and holidays, like TODAY), the R40S MUs will sometimes be signaled for "B" service.
Gives a few R68A MUs a break, since otherwise those Coney Island R40S MUs would have had a few days of non-operation (SA-SU-HOL).
The R68A better get W signs soon. They will equip the Broadway/West End service as of the flipping of the bridge this summer.
The R68A MUs do have the "W". The R68s do not, according to prior posts.
The R68A already has the right rollsigns unless except for the few that have R68 rollsigns in them. There was something weird about the first 8 cars delivered (5001-5008). I forgot.
Today I caught and photographed a consist of R-62A's on the #5. As we know, these cars are used for the late nite OPTO runs. I saw another consist on the road heading up to East 180th St.
My question is, how many 5-car trainsets are used for OPTO on the Dyre Ave shuttle? All 4 or 3 with a back up consist?
If this has been discussed here before, chances are I might not have cauught it. Due to late nite hours, I don't always read all posts.
Bill "Newkirk"
I saw a set going uptown at Fulton St. last Friday Afternoon @ 3:30 PM. Usually, these cars sit idle during the day, only in use south of E180th St. during rush hours.
Back in June, I saw the R62s borrowed from Pelham on the 5 at Bowling Green around the 3 PM hour. I think they run all day.
R62a on #5 line does run all day on the weekday & even rush hour too. On the weekend R62a laying up in Unionport Yard & i see it almost every weekend in Unionport Yard. I think there is 2 sets of R62a cars.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
www.geocities.com/justin2669/NYCTransiTrans.html
Bill,
You may want to do what I do, since my time on here is very limited right now. I set the page display going a few days back....so I can check lots of messages. You may want to do this, since you are right about this topic being brought up recently. -Nick
I was riding up to the Dyre Ave line today when I noticed some unusual older IRT signal on the center and northbound track.
As we know the green is top, amber in the middle and red on the bottom.
On the #2/#5 line around 174th St. I noticed the signals had the amber on the bottom and the red in the middle. The green was of course on top. I never saw this arrangement before, a throwback to the old Interborough ?
In the subway I noticed some of the old green over red signals which I was told was Pennsy. I thought there were all gone.
Bill "Newkirk"
CORRECTION: Should read STRANGE
My goof !
Bill "Newkirk"
There are a lot of those boxy IRT signal heads still around.
Signal Dept. never bothered to switch the lenses and lamp wiring.
Not too many IRT-style homeballs. Was this one at 149 St ?
Interesting that the interlocking signals used on the original IRT are still pretty much standard for most new or modern installations in most places. IIRC CTA uses them and the Blue Line where I saw them or noted them is fairly modern; likewise the BN/MRL line I worked for years still has them. Strange that the more logical use of yellow or green to indicate the route instead of green over red, red over yellow, etc, hasn't been adopted everywhere.
Another thing the old IRT had was single head home or absolute signals that meant stop or stay, unlike the later system in which all homeballs [or absolutes] are of 2 heads, giving for exmple red over red for stop and stay. On the IRT a single red with a red number plate indicated such; on BN/later MRL depending on area the lack of any number plate indicated it was an absolute signal.
Yes, single-head homeballs! That was an IRT odditiy. Since
now every red signal means stop and stay, the distinction isn't
as important.
The so-called "IRT-style" signal was in fact the American Railway
Association standard derived from semaphore signals. When they
were mechanically operated with pipeline, the leverman would
first throw the switch, and then throw one of two signal levers,
giving the train the "top ball" or the "bottom ball". Later,
when electrically-operated semaphores were in vogue, one only needed
to throw one signal lever and the circuitry routed the energy to
the top or bottom semaphore motor depending on the switch lineup.
The IRT color-light system is basically the night indication of
semaphores (which were colored glass roundels illuminated either
by a lantern or electric light).
The BRT used the same nationwide standard on its lines (although the
BRT was also fond of 3-position upper quadrant semaphores while
the IRT was strictly 2-position lower), but when they started
building their first subway, they decided to "modernize" by adopting
the route signalling system that we know today with the bottom
green or bottom yellow. I believe there was some midwest railway that
used the same thing, but it is fairly unique to NYCT now. The
current NORAC signals evolved from those old ARA signals and the
route information turned into speed information.
If I'm not mistaken there may have been some semaphore signals in use on one part of the IRT as late as 1976 in a subway yard. There signal has been on display at the Stillwell Ave. station at Coney Island.
BMTJeff
IIRC East 180 St. yard had the dwarf semaphores until 1976 as you state, perhaps later. My last year on the A Div. was 1975 and I moved west in 1977. The high semaphore were still in use on the New Lots yard lead but I can't remember if they were still there in 75. They were in 1971. I can't remember if 239 Yd or Mosholu had them when I worked there; 240(Broadway) and Westchester didn't..they had newer systems.
Now at least one of those signals as I mentioned in a previous post is displayed at the Stillwell Ave. station at Coney Island. There might be some old IRT signals displayed at the transit museum in Brooklyn.
BMTJeff
Just for the fun of it I saw one of the old IRT signals at a train meet in Montana that a collector had bought, and it came from the Milwaukee! I showed him my book with an IRT el picture to show him the same type signal was used in NYC on the IRT. Likewise I saw what looked just like them except with sun shades on the Calgary light rail line.
It seems that other railroads used the same type of signals as the IRT.
BMTJeff
The old IRT signals are still in use from 149/Mott ave to East 180 and on the Dyre line. From just south of Bronx Park East to 241 White Plains road they have installed the standard "B" divison signal system.
Today I went on a Subtalk field trip with some others from the board. We traveled on much of the Jamaica El, Myrtle Ave El, New Lots Line as well as the Culver and Brighton lines. I will allow the others who were with me today to elaborate on it.
While your waiting for a trip report feel free to check out the pictures from the day at: The Other Side Of The Tracks- A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway Look on the right of the page under the 2-19-01 update. Each link contains images from today's trip.
-Harry
www.zdeno.com
How'd you come up with that domain name?
It's the first name of my favorite hockey player, Zdeno Chara (he is a defensemen for the Islanders and it always near the top of the league in hits every year.) He is also the tallest player in the NHL (6' 10")
-Harry
www.zdeno.com
Harry -- not bad. I'll send you some of my shots from the trip tomorrow or on Wednesday.
BTW, why not do the 'write up' yourself?
BMTman
Here's some text for either Harry or the BMTman to work into THEIR write-up:
Do you know what happens on holidays in NYC ... the BMTman does a Field Trip. This one was on the Els of Brooklyn, well it was almost all above ground if it wasn't on a actual El.
For 4 of the 6 of us the day started at 7 AM at the BMTman's favorite dinner at Flatbush Ave & Belt Parkway. Silver Fox Adam, RIP TA42 Hope Tunnel, BMTman & myself then parked our 3 cars at the next to last stop on the L (it's near a UPS processing center, so the cars are fairly safe & the parking is free). Our goal was to reach Jay Street by 9 which we did with a couple of minutes to spare, here's the route:
- L to Broadway Junction (it's new name);
- A to Jay Street where Lou from Brooklyn & High St/Brooklyn Bridge joined up;
- F via a Rino to Coney Island;
- D via a Hippo to Prospect Park;
- Franklin Shuttle to Botanic Gardens (you just knew this was going to happen)
- 3 to Junius (we looked at the center track used to bring the R-142s into the system [i.e. no 3rd rail], the track construction yard, N&Y & Atl Bayridge tracks, etc.) Then we continued on to New Lots Ave.
- 3 back to Junius (this is a non-free transfer)
- L to Broadway Junction
- J over the Williamsburg & thru the construction to Delancey
- J back over the bridge to Myrtle
- M to Metropolitan Ave past NY & Atl where we saw a pair of CSX engines finishing their duties. Lunch at a kid's Pizza/Deli hang out.
- M back to Myrtle. As we pasted the NY & Atl Fresh Pond yard we saw a pair of CP engines ideling.
Here we split up with two going back for their cars. Adam said he was headed for Howard Beach for some real food. Lou & I got back on the J and went over the bridge again.
- F at Delancey to 34th to meet the re-routed E
- E thru 63rd St connector via a very nice ride on a R32. The view from this Arch Roof's storm window was great and she made good speed on the express track. At Roosevelt Lou made a u-turn for home while I continued to Jamaica. At Jamaica I was treated to a pair of NY & Atl GP-35's (261 & 265) pulling 9 freight cars across switches just East of Jamaica.
So, we saw a lot of Brookly this day & rode a lot of different Rs.
Many had railfan windows: R32, R-38, R-40M, Slant 40, & R-62B (I know it's called a 62A, but wouldn't it be easier to call them 62-B & 62-K ?) We also rode R-42, R-46 & R-68. I also rode the LIRR and arried home at 4 PM. The wife decided it was a good day for Costco, so it was back on my tired feet for another 4 hours.
Mr t__:^)
Good report, Thurston. No need for a re-write. I'll get some pictures over to the webmaster and with Harry's shots this should look pretty good.
BMTman
May I add that it was a gloriously crystal clear, sunny day, with a stiff chilly breeze -- vistas of Manhattan's skylines were available from as far away as Coney Island. The ascent on the F to Smith-9th Streets showed Lady Liberty so brightly green I thought it was a fake.
I learned a great deal about trackage I have never ridden, including the IRT New Lots (3) Line (where we rode in a car that had BRAND NEW AND CLEAN WINDOWS) and its unpowered connection to NY&A trackage, architecture and local layout; how to brake a subway train like a pro; what certain sign plates like "WD-20" meant (and no, it isn't some half-assed lubricant); and also finding out that there are those in this city of like mind in actually being fond of the transit system.
At Metropolitan Avenue, we walked into Lutheran Cemetery to view the sunken trackage of CSX, and in the process saw old catenary hangers over the tunnel portal, as well as seeing an old catenary holding post spanning the tracks some hundred feet away.
I didn't get the "real food" I said I would -- the meatball hero I had at lunch turned out to be sufficient. I wasn't feeling all in-sorts and took the opportunity to scoot home and get some much-needed rest. Before returning to my car after taking the M back to the J and subsequently the L, however, RIPTA42HopeTunnel, BMTman and I went to the end of the line at Canarsie at my request, so that I can say that I stopped at that station. Thanks BMTman and RIPTA for that indulgence, and thanks to all whose company I shared.
And we were all glad to make your acquaintance Adam !
One of the pleasures that our host Dave provides is the mechanism that lets us meet each other. To see a face and even a smile on the other end of those 30 or so pair of hands & fingers is important to me.
Thanks Dave, Mr t__:^)
Glad you enjoyed the trip, Adam.
Hope to see you at the next one...
Keep checking the board from time-to-time.
BMTman
Just my own observations and addenda to the already comprehensive trip report:
-Regarding other threads about lights going out: our R-46 F train went dark shortly after 15 St-Prospect Park, I think, and I don't remember the lights coming back on. Our R-68A B train went dark not long after leaving Stillwell, and I don't remember if they came back on or not. I feel bad for Coney Islanders travelling at night!
-When did the signboxes come out of the Franklin Shuttle cars?
-Broadway Junction is going to be one very nice station, maybe even nicer than Franklin Ave-Fulton St.
-Running through a train on the Broadway El to get to the front and hitting a curve is an experience I won't likely forget soon :)
-On the M, we met up with an off-duty TO (ex-TO?) and railfan at the railfan window who was more than happy to "talk shop."
-On our final trip out to Rockaway Pkwy before doubling back to E105, we cought a glimpse of MOW equipment and even a sleeping Slant in Canarsie yard.
It certainly was "one 'el of a day," and the only detraction was that I had to go into work when it was over. If not for that, I would have been off to Newark on a tip that the PCCs were running.
SilverFox, it was nice meeting you, and it's great to see your name back on the board; I hope you join in more often!
It was a great trip to spend a day off on.
Can't figure out why we always end up on the Franklin Ave Shuttle....
Hmm....
Franklin Ave.........slooooowly I turn........
BMTman
For those of us who missed "Streamliners" a couple weeks ago on Sunday in Philly and Monday in New York, NJN will telecast it Tuesday Feb 20 at 10 PM. The listings in both the Inkie and the Courier-Post show something else, but the NJN magazine and their website both say "Streamliners" at 10 PM tomorrow.
Today, thanks to the President's day schedule, several interesting things happened:
At 4:35 a Pascack Valley line train left Hoboken, and at 4:41 a Raritan Valley line train left Hoboken. This is the one of the only days all year both lines have trains leaving Hoboken on the same day. Any guesses as to how many people screwed up?
The 3:40 Main Line had Comet IVs. That occurs about as often as R-32s on the B Digital signs read "SUFFERN | LOCAL | via PATERSON." The automated announcements were off.
A Gladstone Branch train originating in Hoboken had Comet IVs. Usually only Midtown Direct Gladstone trains get the engine-hauled equipment.
Anyone else make fantasy transit plans? I made some for Philly, as well as my home town of Ocala, FL. Most of the transit-free Sunbelt cities should be ripe for the imagination's picking. I've found SimCity to be not as helpful as one would think, mainly because of the cartesian alignment. Simcity maps are aligned at a 45 degree angle to North, as well as most cities align their street grids a few degrees off of true directions (viz. Montreal). Manhattan's street grid is about 20 degrees askance. If anyone remembers that fake Dayton Subway site, that was great. Bogota, Colombia, is notorious for drawing up planned transit routes that never get followed through with, all the way back to the 1930's. Nevertheless, I would be very interested in others' ideas for fake transit lines in other cites. Thanks.
I have been doing this same sort of thing in my mind since I was about 10 or 11.
In fact, I have a whole island/continent/country in mind, with several different cities and long-distance railroads connecting them!
One city is a large metropolis with a 6-line heavy-rail subway, with feeder light rail and trolley routes. The official color of the transit system is Green. A SEPTA Regional Rail-type system compliments the subway, reaching into the nearby suburbs. A suburban railroad extends into the outlying areas.
Of course, nothing has ever been in stone with this place. My indecisive mind keeps arguing over stuff, such as:
Subway Cars - I've contemplated the following:
1) Retired R-30's painted dark green
2) Cars identical to the R-68's
3) PATH PA-type cars
4) The "succesful" R-11
5) My own design, in which the older cars have huge industrial-style steel fans and R-16 style seats, and the newer ones have interiors similar to that portrayed on a few Seinfeld episodes.
The routes and station names often change, also.
Ever since this post started. I drew a map from memory of my childhood fictional transit system. Still working on it, have to number the busses/street car lines, debating to letter the rapid transit lines or color name them there are 4-24/7 lines, and 3 lines for 6A-9PM Service. 1 of the 24/7 trunk lines runs express Mon-Sun 6A-10PM, and local other times with Peak hour local service when the trunk line runs express. Any suggestions.
JerseyDevil email me:
talgo79@aol.com
I've made a Philly fantasy map, too. Want to swap maps? I'd love to see what ideas you've got. As for the transit-free sunbelt, I made one for Jackson, Mississippi where I used to live.
Mark
Less than 20 minutes ago I was sitting in my history class and guess what I was doodling in my notebook? If you said history notes, you're wrong. Actually, an integrated system of streetcars, commuter rail, and monorail in the Lakewood / SE Tacoma area would be closer to the truth. I cannot begin to list how many different fantasy transit maps I've drawn up for real cities, or how many fake cities I've drawn as well...since about age 8. Most of them aren't in digital form but a few are, I'll try to post them tonight...
-Abe
I've done the same with North Jersey and New York City, such as
-An extensive light rail system in Essex, Bergen, Passaic, and Hudson Counties
-A north-south PATH line between the Jersey City/Bayonne line up thru Hudson and Lower Bergen and over the George Washington Bridge, either ending at the bus terminal or somewhere in the Bronx.
-An extension of the PATH 33rd St line to Grand Central
-A PATH line from GCT across Manhattan, stopping at the JAVITS CENTER (JKJCC transit access solved!), under the Hudson and across to the Meadowlands Sports Complex
-An expansion of the Vince Lombardi Service Area/Park & Ride into an intermodal transportation center with bus service, light rail, and PATH, possibly commuter rail
-Re-activation of the SIRT(OA) North Shore line, and extension across the Kill Van Kull, and joining the Northeast Corridor northward toward Elizabeth, Newark, and New York
-Extension of the SIRT(OA) past Tottenville to the South Amboy station in [New] Jersey.
I always thought the SI North Shore would be ideal rail access to Newark Airport; the only problem being, Staten Island is currently an island, and does not connect to the subway.
Why would it have to be Subway? Newark access could be light rail or monorail. I'm guessing since the NSL is an existing ROW, light rail would be the answer. And unlike subway, light rail could just use the Verrazano Narrows Bridge.
Staten Island Rapid Transit uses R44 subway cars.
If the NSL is reopened (HA!), it would only make sense if it was compatable with the current Tottenville line. Also, the Verrazano Bridge links SI with Brooklyn, not [New] Jersey. The NSL would have its own rail bridge over the Arthur Kill to Jersey - the bridge is there, in fact (right next to the Goethals Bridge). It somewhat resembles the Hells Gate Bridge, but much smaller. The line would then be in Elizabeth and would travel a few miles west until it joins the NEC. Possible stations would be Amboy Ave and Edgar Road before joining the NEC (thank God for road maps that show rail ROWs!). The ROW is already there, and I think even the tracks are there, so it is just a matter of prepping it for passenger trains.
There would be a problem with linking the SIRT to the NEC though - 3rd rail vs. catenary. The solution I guess would be to install pantographs on those R44's, so that they can run from both sources, like MNRR's Connecticut trains.
The R44s do not meet FRA standards, IIRC, so they would not be permitted to operate on the NEC. There would be no point to it anyway... a transfer connection to some other service (HBLR, PATH, or NJT) would be much more cost-effective.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Has Staten Island (RT) been given an exemption from FRA standards? They use R44's that are I assume the same as the B division ones. IIRC some "subway " R44's were sent to Staten Island some time ago as more cars were needed.
I'd guess the major issue is the body strength of cars on FRA RR's. Staten Island did handle freight once, maybe still does. Sorry for the vagaries of this post; I keep up on some recent history but don't know near all of what has changed.
Guess the point is is Staten Island Railway still an FRA line, still handle freight? Therefore making it a railroad legally. In which case the R44's would have needed an exemption?
SIRT: Shall I Run Today?
They use R44's that are I assume the same as the B division ones. IIRC some "subway " R44's were sent to Staten Island some time ago as more cars were needed.
According to Joe Korman's R-contract list, the original R-44 contract was for 300 B-division cars and 52 SIR cars. The roster on this site shows 64 cars on the SIR, and the renumber list says nos. 388-399 were "converted,"* so that certainly confirms your memory :). "Converted" could mean some changes were made to comply with FRA standards.
*The renumbering list says these cars were "Converted to R-43 for SIRR," but Joe Korman lists R-43 as being a contract for three locomotives.
The conversion was not FRA related - don't remember what it was, perhaps someone else can enlighten us. The SIRT hasn't been a common carrier freight line in many years so no FRA exemption is required; it was still carrying freight when the cars were placed in service, however, so an exemption might have been required at that time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The line is still listed as a common carrier. It's exempted as the line is embargoed. Subway cars already meet FRA buff strength standards. The cars were originally modified with extra grab irons, dimmable headlights, lack of tripcocks, and a few other things.
For the GOH, the grab irons were removed, as were the side roll signs. The 12 cars brought over from the subway were modified with dimmable headlights, removal of roll signs, and removal of the trip cocks.
-Hank
Thanks for filling in the details, Hank.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's a photo of one of them in Lou & my Field Trip report.
Also when the weather warms & the sun stays up a bit longer Lou is going to do another Field Trip there, so stay tuned.
Mr t__:^)
If you think the AK Bridge resembles the Hell Gate, you need to get your eyes checked. It it resembles any bridge, it resembles the Marine Parkway Bridge.
It's a lift span (World's Longest), and does not have the long rising approaches that are required for a fixed bridge, which would most likely be required for continuous service.
-Hank
Just a question...how does one post images? If someone could please let me know I can post my Philadelphia and other maps.
Mark
Use html code. You should have greater than-less than symbols ( <> ) and then within those two type the following:
img src="http://www.geocities.com/talgo79/notoriusabe/abesubsmall.jpg"
of course you'd want to replace the image I typed with your own address. But put that code in those symbols and you'll end up a picture.
You also need your own website to "host" your pictures, or make them available on the internet. You should get a free personal home page from geocities or something similar just to upload your pics, then you can link to them from here. I'd love to see your pics though, if you care to email them. :)
I've laminated a CTA map that I mark up. I have some incomplete electronic maps too. I have also designed different style stations for the different portions of the lines, and rather rigid building codes for some areas in the city.
Basically I increase the level of service of every existing line and build about six more, mostly in obviously underserved places, like the near N.W. side, S. Shore, along Belmont, Ashland and Cicero, the Metra stations, and very high density areas like the lake front.
My plans are really bound up with architectural, philosophical & social ideas I have; for me exploring the areas I draw the lines across is a lot of the fun.
I've made a RIPTA subway system, with ridership and engineering considerations tossed to the wind :). It actually started with a dream I had in 1996, in which I got off at the Admiral St station; the station was IND-ish, and I was riding a Lo-V (!!). In "reality," though, I imagine the stations as being similar to Newark City Subway, with 2-car trains of Kawasaki or Kinki-Sharyo LRVs. I have 9 lines planned already: The eight lines out of Kennedy Plaza are (A)Atwells-Johnston, (B)Broadway-Pawtucket, (C)Charles, (E)Elmwood, (G)Garden City, (H)Highland-Seekonk, (P)Pawtucket, (S)Smith-Centreville; the Elmwood branch will eventually be extended to hook into the airport commuter rail link (which is going to happen in real life). I'll post the routes and stations on my site sometime soon, if anyone cares :).
The ninth line isn't connected to Providence, but may eventually get some sort of long-distance connection, a la SEPTA's 100. It runs from Route 1A in Saunderstown over the old Jamestown Bridge, uses the former ROW of Eldred Avenue and East Shore Rd, over the Newport Bridge, and up the existing rail corridor up to Melville; it's called the Conanicut Island And Newport County Intercity line (CIANCI).
Cool! I'd love to see a map if you made one.
I have two crude hand-drawn maps, one schematic and one geographically accurate, that I hope to scan someday or draw electronically.
I have been working out an extensive system of expansion for NYC rapid transit. The system is based around the 2nd Ave subway and 10th ave subway/elevated in Manhattan, with other lines radiating to other boroughs, such as the Flatbush Ave line in Brooklyn, and the 34th St-cross-Queens line to Jamaica following the LIRR right of way, to mention a few.
These lines would be built to Moscow subway standards, meaning deep-tube, and not necassarily following streets.
I seen a acela express in boston today.
Yo, shouldn't that be "I seen AN acela in Botson Today"?! Take care, Thomas:)
I saw an Acela Express would be correct.
From around 12:30 to about 2:30 PM today 63rd/Lex's mezzanine was completely dark. The escalators to the street were not working. The turnstiles and token booth were still lit, though, and the elevator from platform level was still working (I was on it). At around 1 PM they ordered all trains to skip 63rd/Lex, the order was cancelled at 2:38 PM.
So, here are my questions:
How would only the mezzanine get affected?
Where was the power for the booth and turnstiles coming from?
Guess the power supply is split up. Maybe a circut overheated and switched off.
Can't answer any of your power problems, but I can tell you that the problems at Lex/63 started around 4 AM on Monday. Today everything was okey-dokey at Lex.
Hello All,
I have set-up an alternative to SubTalk in case it is shut down. Go to The Other Side Of The Tracks- A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway and click on the large "New Message Board" link. It isn't meant to be competion for SubTalk but rather an insurance measure. It is currently active and works- feel free to use it. The format is different then SubTalk (i.e. I haven't enacted user names yet).
I suggest you bookmark it or write the address down just so we all have a place to convene if something happens to SubTalk. If you have any questions please e-mail me at hbeck@zdeno.com
Thanks,
Harry Beck
www.zdeno.com
The Other Side Of The Tracks- A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
P.S. I realize this message will probably be considered "off-topic". Please don't hold it against me.
I can see why pigs is always yelling at me for advocating emergenvy backup systems. Its like we're asking for something to go wrong. Although, you site may come in handy if Dave ever disable's posting due to an absence. He could just apoint an XO to to help share the workload and cover for absences. I nominate heypaul.
I don't yell at you for your advocacy of emergency backup systems, I yell at you because you want tp prepare for the most outlandish of events (wars, plagues), do you have a preparation plan for an alien invasion, or are you just going to vote for Kodos?
I'm voting for Kang and yes I do have a plan to counter forigen invasion, both human and alien.
What about Porcine invasion. :^)
That plan is pending approval in committie.
Very nice site. I don't know why anyone would object to your mentioning it here. Great work.
PS I'm using some of your site's R-68 detail photos to help with my modelling project!
Talking about other subway related web sites is perfectly on topic. Do you think I'm really that anal?
Um, no need to answer :-)
-Dave
Not you, but there are some other people here who feel that they have the power to decide what's on or off topic.
Brave Pork!!!!! I've been saying that for almost a year. Sometimes we do go off on tangents, but if Dave wants to get back on line, fine. But it gripes my when some know-it-all tries to play the role of verbal traffic cop on this site.
>>> it gripes my when some know-it-all tries to play the role of verbal traffic cop <<<
I guess you think the minister or priest should be the only one to say it's not polite to fart in the church.
Tom
Old Tom: I don't know what fartin in church has to do with it. If people don;t like off topics then don't read them. Some of us like to get into other subjects and you have never heard me tell anyone to stay on topic. It isn't my business to say that, and it isn't anyone's business to tell me to stay on topic, or anyone else for that matter.
Well said, Fred. I agree 100% If I'm interested in a subject, I'll respond (whether it be on or off topic) and If I'm not interested -even if it has to do with trains, I won't. I haven't needed anyone to tell me what is okay to talk about since my grandmother passed away - a long, long time ago.
Hey Dude, just keep your eyes open and you will see what I mean. We have, unfortunately, about a half-dozen of railfans who make a habit of telling us to stay on topic. If Dave Pirmann gave me the word I might be inclined to listen, especially if we are wearing the off topic to death. But no one else should play the role of traffic cop and do it. Besides I won't listen to those guys anyway. Enjoy your day.
Sometimes folks make the mistake of reading some dribble because of the title of the thread ... I hate that when it happens.
Right on, Fred. You and I disagree about politics but I admire your love of freedom. If Dave Pirmann doesn't like my posts, he is welcome to delete them. And if he thinks I'm being obnoxious, he is within his rights to tell me to leave SubTalk. As for Train Dude, he is one of the most valuable members of the SubTalk family. Railfans had better remember that not all people who like trains are willing to immerse themselves in them all of the time. I own my own locomotive and have been involved in several locomotive restorations. Also, I have an extensive library dealing with railroad mechanical matters. In short, I've done a lot of things that most railfans only dream of. So, please forgive me if once in a while I go off topic with my friends, Sea Beach, Train Dude and Pigs and if we go too far Dave has done the right thing in the past and put the threads out of their misery and deleted them. BTW, Dave's angst was aimed at a couple of other posters who had some kind of disagreement which was beginning to look like a legal matter, it wasn't about us. Thanks, Dave, you're the boss and you do a good job.
I couldn't agree more John, and no apologies necessary for going off topic. I can always learn from others about things that interest them, and who knows, some of it might rub off on me. That's the thing I don't understand about those censor happy weirdos on this website. They suppose they know what's best for the rest of us when, in reality, they only have to bypass our pieces if they don't like them. Fortunately we outnumber those guys and, for the most part, pay them little heed. Hopefully they will get the message and bug off.
Hopefully those people who were causing problems will heed David Pirmann's warnings and we'll be able to enjoy this website for many years to come. Then we won't have to look for and use an alternative website to post our messages.
BMTJeff
I've checked out the Site and it looks REALLY good. Save for stupidity there's no reason for Subtalk to go anywhere, so having this new Site will do much to further the cause of research on transit related matters. Keep up the good work!
Eric Dale Smith
The site does look cool, but it is about The New York Transit System exclusively, and us SEPTA Nuts, T-Heads, Metro Maniacs and others would feel left out. Even though this site is called "nycsubway.org", it does offer a forum for those who are from other cities and learn about other transit systems. I enjoy the opinions expressed by those who have about their TA (whether positive or negative).
Perhaps we should form a SEPTA-central Site?
We could, but who wants to hear me badmouth The M-4 fleet all of the time?
Nevertheless, there are a lot of SEPTA-centric complaints that these NY'ers don't want to hear about. I started an unrelated but related group on yahoo. http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/forgottenphilly
Actually, one of the reasons why I find this board so interesting is the wide range of places covered including Philadelphia.
I don't mind reading the complaints at all because they make interesting discussion on what caused them, how they might be fixed, comparisions to other things etc. etc...
[Actually, one of the reasons why I find this board so interesting is the wide range of places covered ...]
I think the same is true for many of us NYC folks too. Personally I don't read every thread about out-of-town equip., but for many I do.
This site and groups like the ERA broadens your horizons. The learning process has been a labor of love.
Mr t__:^)
Has anyone noticed the construction at the east end of the Ronkonkoma station? It's nearly ten years too late but the LIRR is actually building a car wash facility east of the Ronkonkoma Station between the station & yard. At least the trains will be cleaner on the outside. Other than Babylon, are there any other operating car wash facilities on the LIRR?
"Has anyone noticed the construction at the east end of the Ronkonkoma station? "
No Mr.Dude, haven't been there in months. Now the $64.00 question.
Will this new car wash also accommodate the bi-level coachs ?
When they were testing the first Bi-levels (C-1's) they sent them out to Babylon, because that was the only car wash that could accommodate them. Saw them one Sunday attending a record show in Massapequa while they headed to Babylon. They didn't run in service on weekends and there were no fantrips with them that day,
Bill "Newkirk"
Right now the onlt thing completed is the steel skeleton and foundation. It looks large enough for the Bi-levels but one really can't tell yet. It would make sense for it to accommodate the C-3s though since Ronkonkoma sees only one Bi-level train per week (one loco, one coach and one cab-car) and that gets swapped once a week, usually on Thursday.
does anyone know the story behind those little bronze figurines popping up all over the 14th St/8th Ave A-C-E-L station?
It's an art installation.
Yes, we figured it was art, but we were wonder who the artist was, and under what program it was installed. Or any other pertinent details. If anybody knows, or knows where to find out, please help! We have spent hours on the net trying to figure it out. the mta arts program needs a serious website update.
thank(z)
us
Call the TA and ask to be put in contact with someone from the station rehab. program.
I don't know who the artist is, but it's the same one who did the little statues with the giant pennies in Nelson Rockefeller Park in Battery Park City.
They adorn a building on 41st Street off 8th Avenue as well.
I will be travelling on Saturday Feb 24, I will stop by the station and look for the plaque they usually install along with such artworks.
I like the gator that pops up out of the sewer hole to bite some unsuspecting victim on his butt.
wayne
they are so cute ... maybe I will go up to 41st St. to check them out up there this weekend.
These gators should be installed at the far ends of all subway stations, so the next idiot who thinks of going to the bathroom there will get quite a painful suprise! :-0
They should be put in the MTA offices' bathrooms to punish the stupid executives for putting people through such excretory/defecatory hell (lack of bathrooms).
In fact, the bathrooms at the MTA Head Office should be locked until subway bathrooms become available.
They should be put in the MTA offices' bathrooms to punish the stupid executives for putting people through such excretory/defecatory hell (lack of bathrooms).
In fact, the bathrooms at the MTA Head Office should be locked until subway bathrooms become available.
And people who pee at the end of the platform should be awarded money from the MTA in emotional damages.
The bronze sculptures are by a guy named Tom Otterness. More of them can be found in the new park in Battery Park City. The same gator/manhole thing is also at Metrotech in Brooklyn.
www.forgotten-ny.com
And they say there aren't any gators in the sewers of NYC.:-)
The artist is Tom Otterness. The BPC web page has a blurb about his installation there ("The Real World"): http://www.batteryparkcity.org/otterness.htm.
Has anyone else noticed that now when u swipe on the value reader it tells you the last time the card was used which is handy to know if your transfer is still good, I guess someone at the TA has been reading Subtalk when I posted on this about a month ago. I'm glad they did this, now I don't have to wait on the line to see if my transfer is still good while it expires while I wait on the line.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
PS Talking about transfers why is it that the TA says it is 2 hours and it works for 2 hours 18 minutes? This was funny when I asked a S/A and they said you used the card 2 hours 10 mins ago and she said, "The bus transfer is ran out." So I ran upstairs and caught a bus and sure enought "1 XFER OK." I can gladly say I learned that from SUBTALK!
[("Last Used" indicated on MetroCard Reader).... I guess someone at the TA has been reading SubTalk....]
Perhaps, but that feature of the card readers has been there all along.
----
[Talking about transfers, why is it that the TA says it is 2 hours and it works for 2 hours, 18 minutes?.... I can gladly say I learned that from SUBTALK!]
The station agent really should have known better. "Two hours" is easier to communicate, but the 18-minute "buffer" was added to allow for a missed connections, and it's been public knowledge since the MetroCard transfers went into effect (the press bent over backwards to mention it during the first week or two). BTW, 2:18 works out to 2.3 hours, since MetroCard time is measured in tenths of an hour.
Your telling me that the card reader has always said the last time it was used? As in "Last Used 11:13AM?" I never saw it before recently.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
I heard they found the remains of human bones in a garbage can on East tremont ave. in the Soundview section of the Bronx over the wkend.
It sure brings back memories of the late 70's early 80's when the Bronx was on fire, when tennents would throw fire bombs or matresses at cop off rooftop bldgs. Those notorious days.
Has the M.E. found out if there was more than one body and if this was a male or female.
Just wondering. I know it's off topic but this was the only NYC site I could think of.
I'd like to know what section of the Bronx Tremont Avenue is on. If it is in the South Bronx it is understandable something that outrageous could happen since the South Bronx is still the pits. But if it took place in a middle class neighborhood it can only mean that some of the SB's problems are meandering over neighborhood lines and that could spell trouble.
"But if it took place in a middle class neighborhood it can only mean that some of the SB's problems are meandering over neighborhood lines and that could spell trouble."
Or, if we ignore our Chicken Little instincts, it could mean absolutely nothing at all.
Most homicides are "private," in the sense of NOT being some mugger or madman killing a total stranger. Or, to put it another way, with most homicides, the murderer and the victim knew each other at least as acquaintances. And that sort of crime can happen ANYWHERE, with no implication whatsoever for how safe (or unsafe) it is to walk the streets in that neighborhood. Murders happen on Park Avenue, not just the South Bronx. And the body has to be disposed of somewhere.
But let's face it John Esq., things like this happen in poorer areas much more frequently, and I am amazed that so many of you get uptight as hell when the South Bronx is maligned. Face it, the area is the pits--period. I've seen it and seen pictures of it and it reminds me much of what Berlin looked like in 1945. Things like this do not happen in Riverdale or Bay Ridge, do they? They don't. You and BMT read something in my message that wasn't there, so don't cast aspersions on me and stop being so defensive. We here in California are well aware of our bad neighborhoods and don;t try to hide them by denying they exist. You guys should do the same. The South Bronx sucks and has for close to 40 years. Getting defensive about it will change the South Bronx one twit. It still will be the pits.
Drugs are a know fact to be a leading cause of violence. When you are economically and socially inept at making a living the only other resource is to steal in order to get your fix.
most poor innercity neighborhoods are prone to this behavior. Bed-Sty Spanish Harlem, ENY 10 years ago was nicknamed the "KILLING FEILDS" and the South Bronx have all been hit hard by this cancer. Call a spade a spade. These neighborhoods are problematic. No doubt that things have changed over the past 10 years, but consequences are still being felt today. We see scars today from actions taken in the past.
Fred you do have a point!!
Bed-Sty
Stop talking about where I sleep!
The neighborhood is Bed-Stuy.
OK, Pork, we both get your message. The fault is mine for mis-spelling it's abbreviation in the first place. Now relax.
That was what I was trying to say. I'm glad you and Big Ed could see that. I would hope the South Bronx would improve down the road just like I hope South-Central LA would, too. I don't revel in these bad things happening. Anyone's violent death diminishes me as a person. But I was trying to find an answer to whether crime was spreading to other areas or whether it was still confined to a poorer area where crime has always been high. A couple of people seemed to take delight in trying to castigate me when, in fact, they hadn't a clue of what I was trying to get across. Thank you for your understanding and here is hoping that we can see an improvement in area both in your state and in mine.
But let's face it John Esq., things like this happen in poorer areas much more frequently.
No they don't. Poor people are useless (I'm sorry in advance, let me continue first). On the other hand rich people have grudges and money obtained through shady dealings. Killing a rich person is a lot more worthwhile.
Things like this do not happen in Riverdale or Bay Ridge, do they?
Yes they DO. I didn't mention in my first message that it's nice that you can at least realize that there's a part of the Bronx (Riverdale/Fieldston) that's one of the nicest parts of the city.
You and BMT read something in my message that wasn't there, so don't cast aspersions on me and stop being so defensive.
There isn't much to read into it. You're just trying to buffer your case that the Bronx is the crappiest place in the world.
We here in California are well aware of our bad neighborhoods and don;t try to hide them by denying they exist.
However, I really hope you don't think that all crime is concentrated there, as you seem to think about the bad parts of the Bronx.
The South Bronx sucks and has for close to 40 years.
Again you show your ignorance and lack of knowledge about the South Bronx.
However I can say with complete confidence that Los Angeles has sucked for exactly 47 years (just kidding).
47 years? Is that because I have lived here for close to 47 years? Don't get so defensive about the South Bronx. Answer me this question Pigs? Would you live in the South Bronx. Would BMT Doug? I rest my case.
Actually I would prefer to live in Harlem, it's closer to the Central Business district, and cheaper.
And I can have a Park Avenue address with a view of trains out my window.
Whatever, but you wouldn't live inthe South Bronx, and neither would your defensive buddies John Q. or the BMT Man. And if they said they would then they're full of #%^&#@.
[Whatever, but you wouldn't live inthe South Bronx, and neither would your defensive buddies John Q. or the BMT Man. And if they said they would then they're full of #%^&#@.]
Didn't know I was a 'defensive buddy' for Pork. I think he can handle things on his own. I usually don't defend anyone @ SubTalk (with rare exceptions).
I don't have to live in the South Bronx -- I have a nice place in Brooklyn, thank you very much. IF the price was right AND the area looked like it was on the upswing, I'd live there, even if the area in question was the South Bronx.
BTW, I once drove through South Central and I can tell you that most 'rough' neighborhoods in NYC PALE in comparison to the scuzzy look of L.A.'s 'bad' neighborhoods.
BMTman
And who is to argue that point with you? Not me. I'm not going to get defensive about our bad neigborhoods and the drive-by shootings and other violence, and I would NOT live there. Fortunately I don't have to. Like you I live in a nice neighborhood. But you must remember this one thing. I did not revel in bringing down the South Bronx. It actually pisses me off that people have to live in such rotten conditions because it means a lack of opportunity for the children of those areas. It also means that th eir future is clouded at best. But your answer speaks volumes. You would no more live in the South Bronx than I would in South Central LA. And since both neighborhoods are never going to be as good as the ones we live in I don't believe either of us will settle ourselves in these places.
Look at this way:
There are a lot of places I'd rather live before choosing to live in the South Bronx, but if I had to choose between any suburban community, except for the wealthiest, and the South Bronx, I would choose the South Bronx.
All right Pork. I will take you at your word. But please be advised; I have serious doubt that you would really do it. Sorry, but I'm just skeptical. To live in a place like Selden or Wantaugh, Long Island, and the South Bronx, and to choose the South Bronx? It does stretch it somewhat. But, as I said, I will take you at your word. BTW, are you a glutten for punishment?
are you a glutten for punishment?
It's spelled glutton, and no I am not a masochist. And that's demonstrated by the fact that I wouldn't want to live in the suburbs. That would be the ultimate torture.
I feel the same way. I grew up mostly in suburban areas in lived in Chicago's far north suburbs for three years before moving into the city. It's only now, looking back, that I realize just how much of a sheltered and insular world I grew up in, and I've been playing catch-up ever since I left home and got my own place in the city. I can't help but envy the people who grew up in the city and are that much more well-rounded and open-minded because of it.
I never spoke to a black person until I was 10, I never rode a subway until I was 17, and until I was in high school, my idea of recreation somehow always involved a shopping mall. Over the past few years I've finally stopped being afraid of homosexuals or other people who have lifestyles or ethnic backgrounds different than my own, and I've forced myself to explore some neighborhoods that I wouldn't have touched ten years ago. It would be easy to blame bad parenting, but my parents are actually fairly open-minded compared to most of the other people I grew up around. Luckily I had spent time in various urban neighborhoods around Cincinnati as a child and had always found them incredibly fascinating, so I at least knew there was another world out there that I wanted to further explore. Upon moving to Chicago I finally became part of that world.
My only regret is that I spent so many years being ignorant and afraid of the world beyond my own little cul-de-sac, but better late than never I suppose. I'm fortunate that I finally made the jump; some people never do and they can't figure out why spoiled-rotten suburban teenagers go crazy and blow away half their classmates in a bloody rampage. "They had all the video games they wanted, a nice car, and they spent all their time with friends at the mall... What could possibly have been missing from their lives?"
Given the choice between returning to that insular suburban lifestyle and living in the South Bronx, I'd take South Bronx any day of the week. Suburbanites think some city neighborhoods have a lot of deep-seated social problems? Okay, no argument there... But what have these people done to make these neighborhoods better places, other than run ever-further away and then wag their tongues from a safe distance? It's easy to criticize, but there comes a time to either put up or shut up.
-- David
Chicago, IL
David,
Nice story, I grew up in the Bronx until I was 9 years old when my parents moved to the hated (by me) suburbs. I was lucky in that they let me visit the city, on my own, using mass transit. I finally
moved back in 1980 (when I was 25) and have loved being a "city boy" ever since. I am really uncomfortable whenever I go to visit my mother or siblings in the SUBurbs.
Peace,
ANDEE
I lived in Fort Thomas, Kentucky, a bedroom community high on a ridge just across the river from Cincinnati until I was about 10. If you've ever seen the movie "Pleasantville", then you'll have a pretty good idea of what Ft. Thomas is like. The town is 99.99% white, mostly upper middle-class with single-family homes and a few apartments, and the town hasn't changed one bit since 1954. And most of the local residents will fight tooth-and-nail to keep it that way. Everytime I go back there to visit is like going through a time warp. (On the positive side, Ft. Thomas has excellent schools, a quaint downtown business district, and because it's an older suburb, most of the streets actually have sidewalks.)
Ft. Thomas is served by two bus lines that eventually terminate in downtown Cincinnati, but we moved away before I was old enough to go ride the bus on my own. Fortunately, both my parents worked in Cincinnati and I attended art classes in Cincy's funky Mount Adams neigborhood. My fondest memories of Cincinnati involve riding around the city with my parents on their errands, or visiting downtown around Christmas to see the lights. Occasionally I could even successfully beg my parents to take me on a drive around the various city neighborhoods. Now that I live in Chicago and have visited NYC and several other large cities on occasion, Cincinnati feels like the medium-sized city it is. But back then, it was the center of my universe. I never realized how much I missed that urban environment until we moved to North Carolina, Florida, South Carolina and then Florida again over the next ten years. The neighborhoods we lived in during those years were either in semi-rural areas or in the midst of suburban sprawl; I had never been so homesick in my life.
We finally moved to the northern suburbs of Chicago in 1993, and it didn't take long for me to discover Chicago's urban neighborhoods and fall in love with the city. Before long, almost every spare minute I had was spent in the city. My suburban friends at the time couldn't figure out what I found so fascinating about it, as most of them were scared to death of Chicago and barely disguised their hatred of the city and everything it stood for. ("You go down there all by yourself??!!" they usually gasped in shocked disbelief. And believe me when I tell you I'm not exaggerating their reaction one bit.) This was when I realized just how much of a cultural rift there is between city and suburbs, and I still haven't found a place where that rift is more pronounced than in the Chicago area. I think a lot of it has to do with politics and racial prejudices that go back at least to the 1950's, when most of Chicago's suburbs were first developed. It didn't take long for me to figure out which side of the fence I stood on.
Eventually I was finally able to afford my own small apartment in Chicago's Lincoln Park neighborhood, which at the time I considered the ideal urban neighborhood, and lived there for four years. (Lincoln Park is incredibly gentrified, with a Starbucks on almost every corner and a large population of white, upper middle-class yuppies.) After spending three months in Boston this past summer -- where almost every neighborhood looks like Lincoln Park -- I learned the hard way just how destructive that gentrification is to a city's urban character. I now live in Edgewater, an incredibly diverse (and much more affordable and less pretentious) neighborhood a bit further north along the lakefront. Just in my apartment building there must be at least a dozen different ethnic groups, including a huge Tibeten community complete with several monks. I've been told the Dalai Lama has actually been in this building before.
I'm very happy in Chicago and I still consider it my hometown, but lately I've been anxious to explore some other cities in order to continue to broaden my horizons. While it's a fairly safe bet that I'll eventually settle down in Chicago to raise a family, I still wouldn't mind the opportunity to live in one or two other major cities for a few years while I'm still young enough and single enough to do so. Obviously New York is a strong contender; I've visited NYC a few times now and already think of it as sort of a second home to me, and I wouldn't mind the oppurtunity to live there for a couple years while I finish architecture school and get more work experience. I've been through the Bronx a couple times, and it actually didn't look that bad to me despite its notorious reputation. Maybe I just didn't hit the right areas. As a proud Chicagoan I can't resist the temptation to poke fun at New York at every opportunity, but it's usually in good fun and I do have a lot of respect for New York as the great city it is.
Overseas cities have also been on my mind a lot lately; I'll be spending a week in London next month, and Paris and Hong Kong are also high on my list of cities to explore. Each new city I visit gives me new insights about urban life and architecture, and ideally each city offers lessons about what works and what doesn't work in making cities better places to live. Hopefully I'll be able to absorb some of those lessons and apply them back home in Chicago or wherever else I eventually end up.
(As for my parents, they now live in a dull subdivision just outside of Raleigh, North Carolina, and they're still waiting for me to come to my senses and move to the suburbs like all supposedly normal people eventually do. They'll just have to keep waiting.)
I guess it's pretty safe to say that I've come a long way from Fort Thomas, and I (hopefully) still have a long way to go.
-- David
Chicago, IL
[I've been through the Bronx a couple times, and it actually didn't look that bad to me despite its notorious reputation. Maybe I just didn't hit the right areas.]
Ask Andee, he might make an excellent "back street" Bronx tourguide...;-)
David, if you make it to NYC, I'll give ya the quintessential Brooklyn tour.
Great post, BTW! I like your attitude about exploring different cities.
BMTman
Yeh but I would not live in Arcadia either. Too much smog
No smog today Bob, and none yesterday or the day before that or the day before that. Our smog problem has been reduced by 80% since the 60's. You can check it out with Atmosphere Control Board out here, or whatever they call themselves today. We now breath fresh air----most of the time.
There was what I believe was a drug related killing in little Laurel Montana 2 years ago. a place with a lot of thievery but few homicides. Our "city" Billings near Laurel has enough of them though.
The South Bronx has been thru quite a bit of restoration and now appears no worse than the West Bronx where I grew up. I'm not saying some things don't change completely but I did get brave enough at least going on what I remembered to change from the train to a bus at Simpson so I could ride thru my old neighborhood of Highbridge and pass my Alma Mater [Taft].I didn't feel threatened but then I haven't lived in NYCity for years.
Now believe it or not: I read a local newspaper [Riverdale Press I think] and guess which precinct was near the bottom for crime in the Bronx? The 41st! Yes, good old Fort Apache. The Tremont precinct IIRC was the worst, but then that covered a huge area, again IIRC all the way toThroggs Neck.
Unfortunately crime is a way of life in too much of the country and some areas are still worse than others.
This is what I needed to know Big Ed. I don't consider myself an expert in this area and perhaps I gave the impression that was an authority. To me it becomes a problem when crime starts spreading from one area to another, a region that hasn't had much in the past. Then we know there is a crisis. From what I've heard of Montana, you people don;t take any crap from petty criminals, and so I don;t think there will be an epidemic of crime in you neck of the woods. As far a as Fort Apache, good to know things are improving there, and I'll tell you another thing. I will be in New York on March 30-April 1, and I will make it my business to take the #4 train to the South Bronx and look around for myself. Maybe things have taken a turn for the better.
>>> From what I've heard of Montana, you people don;t take any crap from petty criminals, <<<
Hmm, "you people" and "petty criminals" sure sound like code words. But aren't you thinking of Idaho rather than Montana?
Tom
Yes it does, but it isn't. It means residents of the state, and criminals of all shades and stripes. I gave the same guff to my buddy Brighton Beach Bob when he referred to downtown LA as a Third World Country. Words can be contrued in ways not intended by its deliverer. And you, sir, contrued wrongly. No problem. I just cleared up the matter for you. Aren't you now pleased as punch?
Actually the train you need to visit that area is the 2 or 5..from the portal at 149/3rd to East Tremont; specifically around Simpson.As for crime and Montana I'm not impressed with the justice system here; I've seen too much leniency; even a cop killer got off on a mistrial "because he was drunk"; likewise his defense attorney got him a change of venue [I think they call it that] because of 'local prejudice' in his own area.(and I don't think that meant race)
What you hear is not necessarily the facts. I don't know if any parts of the country are tough on criminals, but I'll keep my feelings to myself. Not much really violent crime here but it does happen. Some areas like Laurel-Billings were a nightmare of burglaries when I lived there, and the majority goes unpunished. And drugs are a state problem as in a lot of places, Laurel was overrun with it. I'm not impressed.
And drugs are a state problem as in a lot of places, Laurel was overrun with it. I'm not impressed.
Drugs are not a criminal problem, it's a health problem and should be treated that way, like alcoholism.
Drugs are not a criminal problem, it's a health problem
Dho!!!!!
Not a criminal problem, tell me where you live so we can all head there and live happily ever after.
As for the health problem, who is putting money for some of these social programs helping addicts. You and I, who is paying to fight the war on drugs, WHERE EVER IT IS STILL CRIMINAL ACCORDING TO SOME, you and I. Consequently I see this as a huge social problem that affects each and everyone of us directly!
There is this great docu-drama playing in theatres now staring Micheal Douglas on this subject. "TRAFFIC" if anyone is interested.
The "regime" (I say that whenever I'm disgusted with the draconian actions of government) criminalizes drugs. That makes the problem WORSE. It would be a lot better if drugs were decriminalized, and marijuana was outright legalized.
>>> There is this great docu-drama playing in theatres now staring Micheal Douglas on this subject. "TRAFFIC" <<<
Although it is a good message film, "Traffic" is pure fiction, not a docu-drama.
Tom
I thought this was a great movie. Fictional as you added yet it really opened many discussions and I just added it tongue and cheek in context to this discussion we were having.
Sorry to hear that Big Ed. I was under the impression that since you live in a rustic and rugged environment people there would make short work of punks and druggies. I guess no place is safe from crime. A pity. It would be nice to sweep those criminal bastards off the street and send some place where they work themselves either to death or respectability.
You have a hell of a nerve making a broad statement like that! Particularly for someone who's been living in a town that gave America the catch phrase, "drive-by shooting"!!
I believe Ice-T wrote a song about your hometown. It was called appropriately, "L.A.: Home of the Body-bag".
I suggest you pop some seditives before you get the beatdown you so richly deserve...
BMTman
If you know LA, which you seem to do, remember drive by shooting seem to be confined to gang areas of the inner cities. They have not reached some of the suburban middle class areas. If they did, then we would know that the problem is not confined to one region anymore. That is what I meant, nothing more. It would be the same in New York. Sorry to prick your bubble but those kinds of things do happen in the South Bronx, Bed Sty, Spanish Harlem, and in other poor areas. I don't hear much about things like this happening in Riverdale, Bay Ridge, Bayside, and Staten Island. Or am I wrong. I don't know why you or John jumped to conclusions and intimated that I had some hidden agenda by what I said. The SB is known for things like this happening, just as South Central LA does. These things do not occur in Arcadia where I live, or in the aformentioned areas in New York. Those are facts. Period. I wanted to know about Tremont Avenue to see that was in one of the nicer sections of the Bronx. If so, then it could mean trouble is spreading.
Bed Sty
That would be Bed Stuy. A bed sty is a place where pigs sleep.
I don't hear much about things like this happening in Riverdale, Bay Ridge, Bayside, and Staten Island.
It's nice that you have absolutely no knowledge of the diversity within Staten Island that you choose to lump it in with good neighborhoods. Never heard of Stapleton, New Brighton, and Port Richmond? OK, they're not as bad as the South Bronx, but they're no Todt Hill.
And yes, these things do happen in Riverdale, Bay Ridge, Douglaston (I chose to upgrade) and Todt Hill. Mainly because rich people have enemies, and many of these people (like in Bay Ridge and Dyker Heights) obtain their money through shady dealings.
These things do not occur in Arcadia where I live, or in the aformentioned areas in New York. Those are facts.
No they're not, especially since you got all of the neighborhoods wrong.
I wanted to know about Tremont Avenue to see that was in one of the nicer sections of the Bronx. If so, then it could mean trouble is spreading.
No it doesn't. Only because murders happen EVERYWHERE. Crime may be more widespread, but the only thing that makes murders more commonplace in one neighborhood then another is if more people live there.
We are generalizing here not specializing.It is a "fact" every major metropolitain erea in North America has it's higher and lower end of the social bell.
NYC has it's notorious neighborhoods and this is what this post is about.Chicago, Detroit, L.A. Toronto and Montreal where I live all have this social predicament. Real estate values is a good barometer to tell which neighborhood is in trouble. Buying on the Upper West side is more expensive than buying in ENY. Buying land, building a house and raising two kids in ENY might not be the safest for the family because of it's notoriously dangerous history with drugs and violence yet it will be much cheaper. No neighborhood acquires the nickname "KILLING FEILDS" for prosperity!
Police in Brownsville or the South Bronx might have a higher murder rate than other precincts. Why??
Police on the South Side of Chicago or the West side for that matter might have a higher murder rate as well. Why??
South Central L.A. for police to enforce the law might be a harder task because of it's social demographic. Put a high concentration of poorer people in one erea you will encounter a higher crime rate, it is just proven statistic. Ever since Robert Moses and his urban developement program got involved in the Bronx and the Robert Taylor homes in Chicago, we have seen a decline in proper life style for it's residents. Housing projects and the Cross Bronx Expressway are two examples of this situation. Today; never again will they build a 6 story walk-up in the Bronx. Things are no doubt changing for the better but it will take time.
Today; never again will they build a 6 story walk-up in the Bronx.
Just as well. Who the hell wants to climb 6 flights to an apartment?
<<<Who the hell wants to climb 6 flights to an apartment?<<<
I do it everyday.
But I put up with it gladly because I pay next to nothing in rent.
LONG LIVE RENT STABILIZATION
Pace,
ANDEE
Me again. Tremont Ave. is probably the longest street in the Bronx. Or one of them. Runs nearly the entire width east-west, all the way thru Throggs neck.
Throggs neck is basically private homes; then there's the stretch from West Farms Square westward towards the Harlem River...By some peoples' standards not good; but the bad part for years ran from WestFarms Sq. to roughly Webster. I'd guess this was where the incident happened or perhaps from Webster to what had been University Ave?
But I'm not one to judge or swear oh that figures it happened there!
Pork did bring up some good thoughts about things happeneing everywhere. When I was in my last years living in NYCity I had my feelings, have learned some facts of life since then.
There's realy not a matter to argue about; I've never been in LA so wouldn't know anything besides what a read. Best wishes, Ed.
Thanks Big Ed for your understanding of what I was trying to find out. I'm surprised as the negative reaction I received. Certainly crime in any neighborhood should be decried by all concerned citizens, but there are areas that are high crime regions and those that are not. If crime expands into neighborhoods that haven't had much then it becomes a more serious problem. Some of my colleagues jumped to conclusions, though Pork did clue me in that Staten Island has its seedy neighborhoods, something I did not know. At any rate, I didn't realize Tremont was such a long street in the Bronx. I appreciate you giving my the info needed to make a more seasoned judgment. We have our own seedy neighborhoods out here in California, so I do have some idea of the crime problem.
Hey Fred, how about a few drive by shootings in the early 90s in the Valley, not Sylmar or Van Nuys, but in Chatsowrth and Granada Hills, and Whittier. They are not confined to S LA or E LA or Compton anymore.
I do recall that now. But they were isolated incidents and they did not happen in my Arcadia, or neighboring Temple City, San Marino, or South Pasadena.
Good point, Bob.
In the land of the automobile, LA's criminal element isn't necessarily confined to Compton and the El Barrio.
BMTman
Funny how the thinking is that subways and busses are to be avoided in a community to keep it safe when it's just as easy to rip a lock on a car just parked there and go anywhere. :)
That's been historically the reason why they didn't want the Washington Heights line (A) extended up Riverdale Avenue to "City Line" as had been proposed many times ...
Yeah, ditto for the planned extension of the IRT Nostrand Ave. Line to Sheepshead Bay (Ave. V).
BMTman
Maybe if we all go on a horn-tootin' procession through the "better hoods" they'll barricade the streets and the only way in will be by subway. Heh.
Tremont Ave. doesn't really pass through the Soundview area. I think of Soundview as basically being the area south of the middle leg of Bruckner Blvd. - the part between the two drawbridges. Tremont Ave. passes well north of there. So where were these bones found?
Dyre Dan: I don't know where the body was found. They only said Tremont Avenue. I asked if this was the South Bronx, and before you knew it some of the yo yo's on this site started climbing on my case and accusing me of running down the South Bronx, as if I had anything more to add to the running down of that pathetic area. I appreciate your info on Tremont Avenue, and hope that body found is not a portent of things to come.
There are people who call that pathetic area home you know. I think the "yo-yos" on your case are more irritated by your childish name calling than of your stating the obvious, the S. Bronx isn't a good neighborhood. Perhaps if you didn't call it "the pits," or "pathetic" or any other degrading term you used, maybe people wouldn't be on your case. We also know that crime happens in tough neighborhoods. Anyone over the age of ten should know this so there is no need to explain that utterly simple concept.
If you had a child with an IQ of 71, by all accounts, that child is a moron and I could call him or her that because it'd be true. But, I doubt you'd want me to call your child a moron no matter how true it is. Well, same for the S. Bronx, we know the truth and we don't need you to point it out for us. We can relate the facts of the S. Bronx in any terms we like without totally burying the area and the hard-working people who do inhabit it. When you call their home pathetic, you're calling them pathetic as well.
The moral is, be considerate. You don't want anyone stepping on your toes, so don't run over anyone elses. 'Kay?
Well said. Saying the truth is one thing, but making remarks is an entirely different story. I am not going to waste my breath arguing because some people just don't get the picture. I live in the South Bronx, and I do call it home. Have an open mind about this, not everyone in the South Bronx, ENY, or any other so called Notorious Place where the poor people are is a bad person. Crime can happen in any place at any time. Why can't some folks just get that idea into their heads?
Once someone said to me in a post that a person who sees what they want to see wears "rose colored glasses", referring to ignorance on this issue. I can't see what the SB is like? I live in a City Housing Project! How blind can I be? Well I'm not ignorant, but some others are good for that.
-Stef
If it is of any consolation to you Stef, I have gotten the message. I can relate to what you have said. Have you ever heard of Queensbridge? That housing project was my home for over ten years, and is a very run down place today. Yet when I visit there I still get a rush because it does not look that bad to me. I have great memories of that place, and, as you said, beauty is inthe eyes of the beholder. I wish you the very best for your life in the South Bronx, and here's hoping that conditions there continue to improve as people have told they have. Take care.
Well your tone is a hell of a lot better than the last time we locked horns, and you do make points that make sense. I do feel for poor people that inhabit a bad area, but have no sympathy for the thugs that prey on those people. If I had my druthers, slums would disappear forever. Maybe we should just cool this subject off and hope that those who say the South Bronx is improving are right and that things are going to get better in the future, as I hope our relations will. I can be gotten to as long as the tone is civil but I have to admit I get my Italian up when I think I'm under seige. Have a good day.
This post all started with an incident over the wkend when the NYPD found the remains of human bones in the garbage off East Tremont Ave. in the Soundview area of the Bronx; which BTW does anybody know what happend and what the verdict was on what they found????
This was not to turn into an essay of social blight of the poor and subjective opinion on how rundown or "NOT" the South Bronx is! Some of us are fortunate enough to live with the comforts of a quasi plush lifestyle, while others do have to fight and struggle to survive. For the sake of moral ethical decency towards others the least we can do is hold our prejudices to ourselves.
If you look in history, the Bronx was inhabited by a mix of italian, German and Jewish neighborhoods over the past half century. Due to social and economic changes the Bronx brought in a mix of new immigrants from the south to start up their lives. In the 30's 40's and 50's the bronx was a prosperous place to live until many Housing developements and the cross Bronx expressway PLOWED THROUGH these neighborhoods and destroyed vibrant comunities. White flight happened in the early to late 60's, the 70's were notorious for drugs abandonement and greed, Howard Cossell's infamous line during the 77 world series, "THE BRONX IS ON FIRE" said it all ! What was left, was rubble, street gangs roaming the erea, burnt out buldings and local religous and community groups like Banana Kelly and father Gigante to rebuild and that they did. SEBCO is one major example of the comback and the aforementioned Banana Kelly.
To say that the Bronx is "THE PITS" is a general statement that in context to the Upper west side, Park Slope or any other well to do neighborhoods would be right! But the only thing we can compare the Bronx to; is the Bronx. Nothing else!!
Find pictures from twenty years ago and see what the Bronx looks like today.You will realize how beautiful the Bronx is in it's current condition and the direction it is going! Now that you've read MY essay, I feel better!! Thank you.
Thanks Marty. I'm going to take a good look at the South Bronx when I'm in New York from March 30-April 1. Good info. I appreciate it.
BTW Fred, this was not a personal attack on anything you might have brought up. We are all entitled to our emotional subjective opinions.
Enjoy your stay in NYC, It's great.
The South Bronx may be better than it was in the 70s, but it still isn't the nicest part of town.
If you want to check out the nice parts of Bronx either get a fun pass and ride the bus, or rent a car.
Check out:
Riverdale/Fieldston
Morris Park
Pelham Parkway
Country Club
City Island
Pelham Bay Park
Also visit the New York Botanic Gardens, which are in the Bronx, and are beautiful.
Yes they are, my apartment overlooks The NY Botanical Gardens AND they frequently have model train shows.
Peace,
ANDEE
I also need to know how to get to the Italian section(s). I've heard they have great restaurants there. I want to try sampling them.
The main Italian section, Belmont, is along E. 187th Street between Southern Blvd. and Arthur Ave. The area is just west of the Zoo and south of Fordham Road. Unfortunately, since the 3rd Ave. el came down there is no direct subway access. You could take the D or 4 to Fordham and the #12 bus east, or the 2 to Pelham Pkwy amd the 12 bus west. Or Metro-North Harlem line to Fordham Road. But a car is better. There are a lot of good restaurants, pastry shops, etc. But many of the Italians have moved out and been replaced by Albanians, though the Italians still own the shops. Dominick's, Mario's and Roberto's are some of the restaurants.
Yes I agree, the Bronx is nice again. I am more than pleased with the improvements, including keeping what could be salvaged of the ol buildings that had a lot of architectural value.I looked beyond the deterioration when things were bad and saw the treaures in the pre WWI buildings.
But one big flaw in your post....HOW COLD YOU FORGET THE IRISH? Not that I'm Irish but I sure knew enough of them.
>>>HOW COULD YOU FORGET THE IRISH? <<<
Thanks Ed, I was about to mention that myself.(and I am Irish)
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey, Andee, does that mean I can tell you to go kiss my Blarney Stone?? ;-)
BTW, good trip, but the "surprises" that were talked about never materialized -- excluding our own "detours" into the nether-regions of GC...
BMTman
Yeah you can kiss my blarney stone.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks for a nice essay but, like Ed said YOU FORGOT THE IRISH!
Peace,
ANDEE
Good point! Don't compare one neighborhood to another, just compare the same neighbhorhood to what it was like 15-20 years ago. That SHOULD be the only criteria when talking about how far a particular neighborhood has come since days of blight and neglect.
BMTman
Fred: Please don't flame me and I don't mean to pick bones, but I have found that Tremont Avenue, and a few other places in the South Bronx (Burnside Ave., most of Grand Concourse, and the area of the Bronx near the Bronx High School of Science - which may not be what you consider to be "south" Bronx) to be not too bad or dangerous as places to stroll through or even spend a day - or even to work for a few weeks(in an unpaid student position years ago). Now, there are areas in the Bronx that I could not say that about...
There are many areas of Manhattan (try St. Nicholas Terrace above 125th Street - even in the daylight hours!) and Brooklyn (anything near Downstate Medical Center) and even my Queens borough (south L.I.C. near the QB bridge) that I (personally) have found to be more unnerving places to even travel through. No borough, or half of a borough, in NYC at least, is all bad or dangerous (or safe :)).
-cordially,
turnstiles
Not a chance of me flaming you, but to thank you for giving me a new perspective of the South Bronx. You may find this interesting, though. You talked of Long Island City. Hell I lived there for over ten years when I was a kid. Right in the Queensbridge Housing Project. It is a tough place, yet I like to visit there when I'm in New York. When I tell the people I used to live there and return to see my old haunts they are absolutely delighted. It doesn't seem a dangerous place to me. But I know what you mean, though. I used to go to PS1 and I was disappointed to know that it closed down. It is straight up Val Alst Avenue, about three quarters of a mile from the QHP.
I used to go to PS1 and I was disappointed to know that it closed down.
It's an art gallery now.
You used to go to PS1 in Queens. When? That is very interesting. I loved PS1, was a big star punch ball player there. That wasthe sport we played in PT and before and after school. Where did they send the students when the school closed? There was PS4 and PS83? Did they go there or was a new school built? My God, a PS1 alumnus. You're no longer a pain in the ass Pork, you're a blood brother.
You used to go to PS1 in Queens.
When did I say that?
You said you went to PS1. I don't know if you meant it as such. Look it up.
All I said is that it's an art gallery now.
There's a competing art gallery called IS1 (because IS=Intermediate School), but it never was a school.
I thought there might be something amiss about you attending PS1 even though you said, or I thought you said you attended there. Since you are still a teen, it would have been impossible since the school has been closed since the late 70's. A shame. I really loved attending that school----except for my 7th grade teacher Mrs Barriere. To this day that is the one teacher I could not stand. She didn't like either. What a witch. Other than that it was a great experience for me. I hated to move to Astoria after the seventh grade. Next year we moved to sunny Southern California where it is now raining cats and dogs.
>>>I hated to move to Astoria after the seventh grade.
Fred: You lived in Astoria too? You really are up my alley; I've lived there for years.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Where? I lived at 3158 51st Street, the Woodside Housing Apartments. I enjoyed living there but I never liked PS 10. There were a couple of punks that gave me a bad time. I actually went back in 1974 to look them up but by then no one knew of them.
>>>Where? I lived at 3158 51st Street, the Woodside Housing Apartments.
Fred: 51th Street? I guess that I was not that nearby to you. I lived just a couple of blocks from the N train's Bway station in Astoria. And yes, I too think that the N train could much more service. :)
-cordially,
turnstiles
That wasn't that far from PS 111 where I went to school for a year and a half when they transferred a bunch of there, then re-transferred us back to PS1. Do you know of PS 111?
>>>That wasn't that far from PS 111 where I went to school for a year and a half when they transferred a bunch of there, then
re-transferred us back to PS1. Do you know of PS 111?
Fred: Actually, you're right - that isn't that far away from PS111.
I am not familiar with 111 though (I don't believe I am anyway). I went to Catholic school back in those days :)
-cordially,
turnstiles
"Just wondering. I know it's off topic but this was the only NYC site I could think of. "
You're right marty, this is 100% off topic. The way things are with the "follo" fiasco, maybe we shouldn't test Mr.Pirmann's patience.
Bill "Newkirk"
"Just wondering. I know it's off topic but this was the only NYC site I could think of. "
You're right marty, this is 100% off topic. The way things are with the "follo" fiasco, maybe we shouldn't test Mr.Pirmann's patience.
Bill "Newkirk"
The "follo fiasco" has to do with slander and libel. This isn't what's going on here, this off topic thread is harmless.
So is it over, am I in?
What the heck do I do now?
Can I give notice because I am in for sure? Or should I defer so that I am guaranteed to be in the next class. I just don't want to quit my other job and get bumped by number 7 on the list who finally cleared a medical hold.
Thanks
You are now an employee of NYCT. The union hall is your first day on the job, you should receive your pass and get to hear about all the wonderful things the union and the job have to offer.
Feb. 25, 2001 is the 50th anniversary of the opening of revenue service on Chicago's second subway, the Dearborn/Milwaukee subway. So far there hasn't been any official anouncements from either the city or the CTA that the event will be honored. The Dearborn Milwaukee was begun along with State ST subway in 1938 as a WPA project, but construction on subway No. 2 was suspended due to war-time shortages. The Logan Square route used the new subway. Today the same line uses it as a part of the Blue Line to OHare. When the Loop "L" turned 100, the city and the CTA put on fabulous party featuring antique vehicles and rides around the loop on 4272/71.
David Harrison
Let's hope for Chicago subway buffs that the CTA has at least some celebration marking 50 years of service on the Dearborn/Milwaukee subway line.
BMTJeff
I was in Chicago a month ago and during my meeting with Graham Garfield (webmaster of wwww.chicago-l.org) there was never any mention made of festivities marking that event. I could be wrong but my feeling is that all attention is being paid to the upcoming renovation of the Douglas L. A celebration of the type you describe would be most appropriate but again I doubt that anything of the sort is being planned.
Eric Dale Smith
Aargh, I forgot all about it. I was a bit young to have participated in the last/first runs on the old and new Logan Square routings (much as I whined to my parents to be allowed to do so), but I certainly remember the Chicago media coverage at the time.
If only CTA had chosen to run the Humboldt Park trains into the Milwaukee Avenue subway, that branch (no doubt by now extended out to Elmwood Park or so) might still be with us today.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
I'll probably end up celebrating the completion of the Milwaukee Avenue subway around 3:00 or 4:00 AM that day by heading home on that subway from a night of drinking in Wicker Park. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's in fairly ugly shape, at least cosmetically, maybe that's why?
Worst looking 49 year old I know,
HAR HAR HAR
The Daily News has joined the voices in the argument to keep the G its full length. They claim that by "doing the math" the QB line will be able to handle the increase in traffic. Does this actual add up?
Don't Stop G Train in Its Tracks
I have three reactions to this:
1. G riders are understandably upset.
2. I am a bit skeptical that the math would work out.
3. However, perhaps the MTA should consider a compromise: Continue G service, at either current or reduced levels (say, 15 minute headways, 4 trains per hour) and see if that really interferes with V service. If it works out, keep it! If not, cancel it.
I also think it's possible MTA is counting crews and overtime. Running the new V train along with the G may involve substantial overtime or staffing requirements that would go above the budget guidelines for those services. I don't know that for a fact; perhaps others more knowledgable on this site can enlighten us.
Hi all,
I am not in NYC anymore except for visiting once or twice a year. I have read the posts about this V train replacing part of the G (or I prefer the GG I remember as a boy).
Why V? That's a crazy letter. I say bring back the H - makes more sense to me. Don't you think?
ScottinSF
>>>Why V? That's a crazy letter. I say bring back the H - makes more sense to me. Don't you think? <<<
Agreed, since the trend should be to have letters that accompany each other in the alphabet do the same in the transit system. A, C, and E, which are all toward the front of the alphabet, on the 8th Avenue (and A,B, C, D all meet up at Columbus Circle)
M, R, N (all in the middle of the alphabet) can be found on the 4th Ave in Brooklyn daytimes. Unfortunately the Q is tied up with the D, and can't be changed to something closer to D. B, C, D go to the Bronx.
In Queens, you should have the E, F, G and H all on Queens Blvd. The V? Huh? The closest logic I can come to is that the F is an unvoiced fricative while the V is voiced, so the MTA may have former voice teachers picking the letters, but that's really stretching it.
And the Z should be the K. Who IS picking the letters?
www.forgotten-ny.com
They have one of those plastic domes just like on the lottery, with little ping-pong balls with letters painted on them. They have another corresponding plastic dome to provide numbers for the IRT.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>>They have another corresponding plastic dome to provide numbers for the IRT. <<<
Not necessarily...the IRT is more logical. The 1,2,3 and the 4,5, 6 travel together in Manhattan, and have the same color. They do get mixed up in Brooklyn & the Bronx.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Not really. The 4, 5 and 6 go from west to east. On the west side, the 2 is east of the 1, but the 3 is west of the 2, but the 3 doesn't go to the Bronx.
Then go further east and there's the 7.
The IND was the pinnacle of logic before the B and C switched terminals. And in the BMT, the J goes to Jamaica via Jamaica and the M to Metropolitan via Myrtle.
B, C, D go to the Bronx.
No they do NOT, the C does NOT go to the Bronx.
As for using H, what all of you people can't seem to understand is that the currently planned routings are based on rollsign configuration. The H is already there, it's blue, they're not going to change it just for symmetry. The V is already there, it's orange. Guess which color the TA needs for the new service?
>>>No they do NOT, the C does NOT go to the Bronx. <<<
My bad, as the kids say.
www.forgotten-ny.com
There is a logic to the letters:
A-H are IND lines.
IRT lines are numbered.
When the BMT was merged into the IND(B-1 Division) as B-2 Division they used the leters after H- such as j, L, etc.
Of course, with the current routing BMT becomes IND on te Manhattan bridge or Queens Boulevard (R).
Does this actual add up?
The problem with the G train was NEVER lack of track capacity. The problem has been lack of cars, a problem which NYCT policies helped create.
The News article actually understated the capacity case by 25%. Track capacity is 40 tph not 30 tph. If they could run 660 foot trains, as they did in the 1950's and if they ran at 34 tph, as they did in the 1950's then there would be negligible increase in the number of cars per hour going into Manhattan with the new $600 million 63rd St Connector.
"The News article actually understated the capacity case by 25%. Track capacity is 40 tph not 30 tph. If they could run 660 foot trains, as they did in the 1950's and if they ran at 34 tph, as they did in the 1950's then there would be negligible increase in the number of cars per hour going into Manhattan with the new $600 million 63rd St Connector."
No, not quite true. Regardless of the number of cars and trains running, if you remove the G train from Queens Plaza and leave those slots for Manhattan-Bound trains, you increase capacity by at least 15% regardless of how many trains per hour each track or tunnel handles. The Connector does represent significant additional capacity.
How come?
Currently I believe the express track from Q Plaza to Manhattan runs 30 trains per hour in the rush - E and F, 12 and 18 respectively.
There are about 12 Rs in the rush. The new V trains plans to add another 12. This is calculated using any access to Manhattan whether it be a tunnel (53/63) or Q Bridge.
The new services would come to 54 tph vs 42 now and my calculator says that is a close to 29% increase not taking into account any other problem, operational, etc, availability of crews, trains, etc.
If you put a G back into Q Plaza the throughput of that station would rise to 30 express, 24 R/V plus how many G's? = 6 with 30tph on the local. With the complicated working of the Vs, how long would that last?
Once again I'm going to say this: The number of Fs per hour cannot be more than the Es because you never see two Fs in a row, but more often you see two Es in a row.
I'm not arguing with you - your assessment is quite accurate. I just meant to point out that replacing G with V service at Queens Plaza increases the total capacity to Manhattan. Whether the MTA fully realizes that capacity depends on the amount of rolling stock - that may take time to get better.
No, not quite true. Regardless of the number of cars and trains running, if you remove the G train from Queens Plaza and leave those slots for Manhattan-Bound trains, you increase capacity by at least 15% regardless of how many trains per hour each track or tunnel handles. The Connector does represent significant additional capacity.
Currently there are 13 F's, 14 E's and 12 R's per hour for 39 trains per hour. The new 63rd St alignment will provide: 13 F's; 14 E's; 10 R's and 10 V's for 47 trains per hour. The 1957 alignment was: 17 E's; 17 F's and 15 BMT Locals for 49 trains per hour.
Next, consider the 11 car express trains. That's a 10% effective increase over current capability. So, translating the above to 60 ft cars per hour we get: 1957 - 494; 2000 - 390; 2001 - 490. N.B. The BMT locals were running trains of 7 car Standards which I equate to 8 car trains of 60 footers.
Passenger load capacity? The R1/9's and R32's hold 145 per car; the R44/46/68 hold 175 per car and the Standards held 170 per car. Assuming R32's on the E and 75 footers on the others, we have 1957 - 72080; 2000 - 55,300; 2001 - 67900.
Finally seating capacity: 1957 - 28819; 2000 - 21720; 2001 - 26520.
These figures show that after spending $600 million the projected rush hour service will be less than that in 1957. My question is "where's the beef", I already know where the pork is.
"Currently there are 13 F's, 14 E's and 12 R's per hour for 39 trains per hour. The new 63rd St alignment will provide: 13 F's; 14 E's; 10 R's and 10 V's for 47 trains per hour. The 1957 alignment was: 17 E's; 17 F's and 15 BMT Locals for 49 trains per hour."
You're confusing "capacity" with what the MTA has scheduled. With enough rolling stock and crews, the above could well be restored to 1957 levels, or actually greater, because others have posted here that 6th Av express tracks were available beginning in 1968. Granted, MTA may not have the personnel or rolling stock to fully utilize the capacity the way you or I would like, right now. With additional rolling stock, those numbers will change. The above numbers do not represent the tunnel's capacity, only what MTA is doing with it right now.
"These figures show that after spending $600 million the projected rush hour service will be less than that in 1957. My question is "where's the beef", I already know where the pork is."
That comment reflects a bias you may have against building the thing in the first place. You're entitled to that - but try to be more honest about what your numbers mean. There's plenty of beef here, but you choose to see pork. That's your right of course, but rather than expending all your energy on how badly MTA sucks goose eggs, why not focus on ways the rolling stock can be maximally employed to do what the tunnel is really capable of?
You're confusing "capacity" with what the MTA has scheduled. With enough rolling stock and crews, the above could well be restored to 1957 levels, or actually greater, because others have posted here that 6th Av express tracks were available beginning in 1968. Granted, MTA may not have the personnel or rolling stock to fully utilize the
capacity the way you or I would like, right now. With additional rolling stock, those numbers will change. The above numbers do not represent the tunnel's capacity, only what MTA is doing with it right now.
I would not mind finding an waiting, empty train each time I entered a platform. I do not find it unreasonable to share the train with others. The question is how many others. Present load levels on the QB lines average around 130% of service load levels. Increasing service by 30% will reduce this to 100% of service load levels. The current service load levels are 55,300 requires capacity for 71,890 passengers per hour. The 1957 service load levels were 72,080. Additional track capacity is not required to meet the objective of 100% service load, only additional cars and the willingness and ability to operate them.
...but rather than expending all your energy on how badly MTA sucks goose eggs, why not focus on ways the rolling stock can be maximally employed...
There should be standards for subway performance - waiting time, travel time and comfort. I would assume that these standards should be uniform throught the system because we all pay the same fare.
The switches dictate that all merging services operate at the same headways. Otherwise delays are a mathematical certainty. This takes care of equalizing headways. What about load levels? Simply, vary the length of the trains to ensure load level equalization and thus ensure that rolling stock is maximally deployed. There's a problem - the TA decided to use linkbars and thus prevent both maximum deployment and maximum availability.
do what the tunnel is really capable of?
This tunnel has probably shown that the TA is not capable of very much. It was designed to increase the service range to eastern Queens significantly reducing travel time and thereby increase property values. This is the program that the Feds bought into, when they funded the building of the 63rd St tunnel. The Feds gave strong hints that they would want their money back, if NYCT failed to use the new facility after it was completed and lay idle. That's when NYCT opted to use this new facility in the worst possible way.
"This tunnel has probably shown that the TA is not capable of very much. It was designed to increase the service range to eastern Queens significantly reducing travel time and thereby increase property values. This is the program that the Feds bought into, when they funded the building of the 63rd St tunnel. The Feds gave strong hints that they would want their money back, if NYCT failed to use the new facility after it was completed and lay idle. That's when NYCT opted to use this new facility in the worst possible way."
There is no dispute that the MTA did not finish what it originally started. But leaving the line to dead-end at 21rst Street made no sense either. Rather than cry about what we did or didn't do in the 1960's, the MTA salvaged something useful from the project. Also, please note that nowhere in your discussion is there any acknowledgement of the growing ridership at Roosevelt Island, where a large and growing community with rising property values (thanks to the subway) now has direct subway access to Queens. This is also a worthy goal, and requires that the 63rd Street line connect to something. And that, in turn, requires some open-mindedness and a willingness to take a fresh look at the problem at hand. There was not enough money in the budget to build a line as envisioned in the 1960's. 1957 is 45 years behind us - don't waste your energy worshipping it.
By the way, ridership has reached nearly 7 million per day. If they continue to grow, the TA will need every inch of tunnel is has to serve those riders. And who knows - maybe the express line will come about one day.
Which reference gave you the 1957 figures?
There is no dispute that the MTA did not finish what it originally started. But leaving the line to dead-end at 21rst Street made no sense either.
Actually, the TA did not want to run anything north of 57th St. They were forced to use the existing facilities under threat of "repossession" by the Feds. Ditto for Archer Ave.
nowhere in your discussion is there any acknowledgement of the growing ridership at Roosevelt Island, where a large and growing community with rising property values (thanks to the subway)
NYC does not receive full value in lieu of property taxes from the state run UDC. These properties are not on the NYC tax rolls.
By the way, ridership has reached nearly 7 million per day. If they continue to grow, the TA will need every inch of tunnel is has to serve those riders.
Might I suggest that they will need an adequate number of operational subway cars to service their EXISTING tunnels before they contemplate building new tunnels. They will need the new cars regardless of where they run - new facilities or old. Monies spent on tunnels divert funds from urgent requirements.
1957 is 45 years behind us - don't waste your energy worshipping it.
The NYCT reflex reaction is "it can't be done". I use such baseline figures to show that not only is it possible but that there was a working "proof of concept".
There is a limited amount of money in the pot for transit improvements. That means one should prioritize expenditures on the basis of greatest marginal return, all other things being equal. Service levels could be increased by 25%, if the cars were available. They could be increased an additional 25% using better signal systems. Both strategies do not incur the long delays associated with building a 2nd Ave Subway or some other unnecessary and long term solution. It provides a convenient red herring for anyone challenging the MTA's managerial acumen.
Which reference gave you the 1957 figures?
The TA published the acutal and maximum rush hour service levels in their first annual report in 1954. They have not repeated this folly for fear of public scrutiny.
"NYC does not receive full value in lieu of property taxes from the state run UDC. These properties are not on the NYC tax rolls."
Taxes are not the only benefit here. Higher property values mean more business, lower crime, lots of other bennies. You're looking at this with blinders on. Take off the blinders and put on a panoramic lens.
"NYC does not receive full value in lieu of property taxes from the state run UDC. These properties are not on the NYC tax rolls."
Taxes are not the only benefit here. Higher property values mean more business, lower crime, more and better housing stock (all of this happened on Roosevelt Island and in Jamaica) and lots of other bennies. You're looking at this with blinders on, in the narrowest way possible, as if in a vacuum. Take off the blinders and put on a panoramic lens.
(Bauman referring to new subway extensions)"Actually, the TA did not want to run anything north of 57th St. They were forced to use the existing facilities under threat of "repossession" by the Feds. Ditto for Archer Ave."
That is your spin on events. There are other interpretations, not resembling yours. But even if yours is true, so what? The Archer Av extension is very well set up. It provides great access to the LIRR, tore down a half-mile of elevated the community felt good about having removed, and provides some form of north-south service (by travelling to Sutphin and transferring). It did not go far enough, because it could only use what was allocated in the capital plan, and merchants were unhappy about that, and others have posted here that the business district was "shifted westward." Fair enough. But in the late 1970's and early 1980's too much of the "business district" was made up of drug dealers and robbers. The stunning success in developing the area over the last fifteen years speaks for itself. The MTA played a key role, as did the feds, the Port Authority and private business.
"There is a limited amount of money in the pot for transit improvements. That means one should prioritize expenditures on the basis of greatest marginal return, all other things being equal. Service levels could be increased by 25%, if the cars were available. They could be increased an additional 25% using better signal systems. Both strategies do not incur the long delays associated with building a 2nd Ave Subway or some other unnecessary and long term solution. It provides a convenient red herring for anyone challenging the MTA's managerial acumen."
If I didn't know any better I would venture to say you either don't ride the subway much or you still have the horse blinders mounted. No amount of signal improvements will alleviate the crushloads on the Lex. The public consensus is that a Second Avenue subway is now a critical necessity, not a luxury. Either build it, or give riders a choice of lubricating oil to slap on themselves before they tru to get on.
Look, let's be honest. You want the subway system to be running nearly perfectly before any new construction takes place anywhere. As I told Larry Littlefield a ways back, on some planet in another galaxy those beings may have perfected that solution, but here on earth all humans are fallable and that won't work. It also is not flexible enough to deal with major trends and political demands (yes, we have to pay attention to that too). If we elected Stephen Baumann MTA Chair tomorrow he couldn't practice was he preaches, guaranteed, because there isn't enough rationale for it to work.
I want MTA to add rolling stock, and I will continue to write and badger my lawmakers for it. I think it will happen. When the second Av subway is finally built, a new service yard and new rolling stock will have to be part of the equation.
Of course, demands for operational perfection can also be used to hide an ulterior motive for one who may be antitransit but doesn't want to appear so. (I'm not saying you fit into that. I'm saying it in general).
I think you seem to miss Stephens point, if MTA would have spent .6B$ on rolling stock (400 - 600 cars) they could have run much better service RIGHT NOW. Perhaps 10 car C trains, maybe G to Continental or perhaps more frequently to Court Square and so on (just few issues brought up here recently.)
IMHO the 63rd Street connector is a waste of resources, as will be the LIRR ESA. They are nice but not for that amount of money are they worth it? With better management and cooperation between agencies all of that could be achieved at much lesser cost. Through running NJT and LIRR trains with an added stop at 32nd and PAS connecting to Lex IRT LOCALS (there is capacitity available) the same service could be achieved by far lessser price.
Here's a quote from an e-mail NJ Commitee for Better Transit to whom I suggested that idea:
"Currently, according to Ralph Brasket,
NJ coordinator for Committee for Better Transit, NJTransit, LIRR, and
MetroNorth all have different electric shoe configurations. It is possible,
as is done in Europe, to equip trains with multiple electric shoes so they
can traverse different rail networks. But the passenger railroads here,
especially the LIRR, oppose working out an agreement to facilitate
multiple-shoe operations with each other."
Arti
"I think you seem to miss Stephens point, if MTA would have spent .6B$ on rolling stock (400 - 600 cars) they could have run much better service RIGHT NOW. Perhaps 10 car C trains, maybe G to Continental or perhaps more frequently to Court Square and so on (just few issues brought up here recently.) "
I understood his point all too well, and I think he understood mine (but I detect a bit of denial)- which is that in the real world, rolling stock and new facilities compete for resources. MTA spends a lot on both, and may seem to make everyone unhappy as a result. Oh well.
"IMHO the 63rd Street connector is a waste of resources, as will be the LIRR ESA. They are nice but not for that amount of money are they worth it? With better management and cooperation between agencies all of that could be achieved at much lesser cost."
Really? To improve LIRR service MTA has to increase the number of tunnels connecting to Manhattan. Period. End of story. Now, should MTA dig a whole new tunnel to Penn? Maybe. Isn't it cheaper to build shorter connectors to use a tunnel (63rd St) which is already in place (just add tracks and signals to the existing stretch)?
Through running NJT and LIRR trains with an added stop at 32nd and PAS connecting to Lex IRT LOCALS (there is capacitity available) the same service could be achieved by far lessser price."
No, the capacity isn't there. You have exactly two tracks serving Penn Station, and four crossing the East River. adding stops to the existing tunnels will screw up schedules and worsen service; running NJ Transit trains into Long Island without a new tunnel is sheer lunacy.
Currently, according to Ralph Brasket,
NJ coordinator for Committee for Better Transit, NJTransit, LIRR, and
MetroNorth all have different electric shoe configurations. It is possible,
as is done in Europe, to equip trains with multiple electric shoes so they
can traverse different rail networks. But the passenger railroads here,
especially the LIRR, oppose working out an agreement to facilitate
multiple-shoe operations with each other."
Ralph Brackett just fed you a cock-and-bull story, and you ate it complete with dessert. Is the NJ Committe for Better Transit related to the New York group? The New York Group is great at trying to kill any and all transit projects, and proposing schemes which are completely unworkable. They have practiced long and hard at this art, and they're good at it - look how they hoodwinked you.
[No, the capacity isn't there. You have exactly two tracks serving Penn Station, and four crossing the East River. adding stops to the existing tunnels will screw up schedules and worsen service; running NJ Transit trains into Long Island without a new tunnel is sheer lunacy. ]
I mean, to run combined through service, as in NJT trains serving PW branch for example, thus removing the biggest bottleneck, the capacity of Penn Station.
Arti
"I mean, to run combined through service, as in NJT trains serving PW branch for example, thus removing the biggest bottleneck, the capacity of Penn Station."
That's actually a very creative idea. In order to implement it though, you'll need a few things to start:
Agreement on common signalling systems, or training NJT crews to recognize LIRR signalling (do-able)
Ensure that LIRR raised platforms accept NJT's MU's (probably trivial since they share Penn Station, but someone has to at least inspect and make sure).
Install overhead catenary on the LIRR or convert NJT Comets to run on third-rail DC power (I don't know how difficult that is). The catenary idea would meet with huge expenses, land issues, NIMBY of a scale not seen before, and you would probably be lying dead across the tracks before crews ever erected a single pole.
Increase NJT's rolling stock by enough cars to ensure that both Long Island and NJ commuters get good schedules. LIRR's MUs are due for retirement; you're not going to modify them. Do you know how much that would cost?
Address seniority, pay scale, union rules etc. etc. on both sides of the border. Again, expenses incurred in doing so?
Increase maintenance yard capacity; convert part of the LIRR Hillside facility to NJT rolling stock maintenance.
But let's say you've accomplished all the above, plus a lot of obstacles I didn't think of. You may have offered the railroads involved commonality of equipment, operational savings, etc. etc. But: Have you removed the bottleneck? Well, consider that we still need to increase the number of trains per hour visiting Penn Station, and 10 different LIRR lines plus Amtrak (plus NJT trains headed for Sunnyside yard) are competing for four tracks, and then consider that Amtrak and NJT still compete for two tracks on the west side of the Hudson - so my guess is, you've spent a lot of money, and the bottleneck is probably still there. The likelihood of this not working is high enough so that the money you'll need to carry all of this out could be better spent building a new tunnel.
Would a pilot project (an experiment) using one NJT line only and one LIRR line only to see what happens be worthwhile? Maybe, but you'll have to convince a lot of people (not just in the transit bureaucracy) that this should go ahead of other agenda items they want.
My suggestion? Do some research, write a letter to NJT's general manager, and a copy to the MTA (Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director of Govt and Community Relations), and see what you get back. They will answer you- they've answered every one f my letters over the years.
When you get a reply, post it here on nycsubway.org.
Good luck.
[Increase NJT's rolling stock by enough cars to ensure that both Long Island and NJ commuters get good schedules. LIRR's MUs are due for retirement; you're not going to modify them.]
New cars for LIRR are needed anyway. For NJT to run some thru service more cars are needed. There's already a precedent for NJT to operate MTA (MNRR) service. NJT could take over some LIRR line ordering dual mode electrics and MTA would pay them like MNRR case.
[Do you know how much that would cost? ]
Well there's $20B to build that 63rd st connector, all of that can't possibly approach that.
Arti
"New cars for LIRR are needed anyway. For NJT to run some thru service more cars are needed. There's already a precedent for NJT to operate MTA (MNRR) service. NJT could take over some LIRR line ordering dual mode electrics and MTA would pay them like MNRR case."
OK, there's political precedent for this. But the contract deal you want is complicated and will take a lot of work, years of work.
"Well there's $20B to build that 63rd st connector, all of that can't possibly approach that."
The $20 billion figure you cite is a worst-case estimate of what a full-length Second Avenue Subway would cost, stretching from Harlem to Whitehall Street and connecting to the 63rd St line.
Before you write your proposal and send it to MTA, you need to make sure your facts are straight. Let me give you a hand
The entire 63rd St. project, from start to finish, cost about $1.5 billion. The first segment, $898 million, done in the 1960's and 1970's, was actually done pretty much on budget and the tunnels under the East River were installed on budget and on schedule (this does not mean everything went perfectly. And there were interesting challenges, like restoring every rock and anthill in Central Park where the line crossed under it). The Connector portion cost $645 million because much of the original line was rebuilt to include crossovers and because construction was done in such a way that existing Queens Blvd service could continue during construction.
East Side Access, the project to finish the existing LIRR tunnel across the East River, will cost about $1.5 billion to complete, including a new level at Grand Central Station. If your proposal to combine NJ Transit and LIRR service costs more than this (and I predict it would - see my previous post), then the new tunnel is more cost-effective.
[East Side Access, the project to finish the existing LIRR tunnel across the East River, will cost about $1.5 billion to complete, including a new level at Grand Central Station. If your proposal to combine NJ Transit and LIRR service costs more than this (and I predict it would - see my previous post), then the new tunnel is more cost-effective. ]
Actually according to MTA it's $4.3B, $1.5 will be spent during this Capital Program. The completion of the projest was if I'm not mistaken will be 2020. They'll spend $908M to purchase 472 new cars, if NJT would take some of the operations over, they'll need less or it could be used to purchase dual mode electrics. Purchasing new rolling stock and all the implemmentation IMHO shouldn't take 20 years.
Arti
"Actually according to MTA it's $4.3B, $1.5 will be spent during this Capital Program. The completion of the projest was if I'm not mistaken will be 2020."
I'll accept that my reading of ESA cost may be optimistic. But you are mistaken about the time frame. Completion of ESA could be accoimplished by 2010-12, give or take some. With contracting methods which reward schedule and cost adherence, 2010 is a good target.
Again, if you're going to debate this, or propose this to somebody, get everything straight first.
"They'll spend $908M to purchase 472 new cars, if NJT would take some of the operations over, they'll need less or it could be used to purchase dual mode electrics. Purchasing new rolling stock and all the implemmentation IMHO shouldn't take 20 years."
Buying rolling stock doesn't take 20 years, but you're assuming they'll need less rolling stock without actually having studied the issue. How do you know the existing rolling stock can be properly converted? And dual mode locomotives are still going through teething problems. Finally, it's not the procurement that takes long, it's getting all the research done, the political ducks lined up in a row, and the legal stuff that eats time.
Still, I think your idea's creative. But you pitch around numbers and make all kinds of unsupported assumptions you expect other people to accept (that's easy on nycsubway.org, since no one is holding you accountable). But if you want to propose something that would survive public scrutiny, do your homework (a lot of it), write up something, and let's see what happens.
[I'll accept that my reading of ESA cost may be optimistic. But you are mistaken about the time frame. Completion of ESA could be accoimplished by 2010-12, give or take some. With contracting methods which reward schedule and cost adherence, 2010 is a good target]
As I said $1.5B will be spent during this Capital Program (ending 2004.) That leaves $2.9B worth of work still do be done, if you shoot for 2010, that'll mean that next CP has to double the amount for that project or other words be as much as current budget for the whole system expansion ($2,92B) I doubt that'll happen.
[Buying rolling stock doesn't take 20 years, but you're assuming they'll need less rolling stock without actually having studied the issue.]
If they will be running less service, common sense would say that less rolling stock would be needed.
[ How do you know the existing rolling stock can be properly converted?]
Don't know, but LIRR is expected to replace 81% of their electric fleet within this Capital program, so new units probably would be the answer.
[And dual mode locomotives are still going through teething problems.]
That's dual mode diesel-electric. Dual power supply locos are common and time tested.
[ Finally, it's not the procurement that takes long, it's getting all the research done, the political ducks lined up in a row, and the legal stuff that eats time. ]
That's probably the weakest point of my idea, as by the time the political and study process is finished, so much money would have alredy spent on the current solution. Of course NJT is just starting to look into expanding capacity, so there's a chance.
[Still, I think your idea's creative. But you pitch around numbers and make all kinds of unsupported assumptions you expect other people to accept (that's easy on nycsubway.org, since no one is holding you accountable). But if you want to propose something that would survive public scrutiny, do your homework (a lot of it), write up something, and let's see what happens. ]
Problem here is that I don't have the time. At the same time there are organizations who do that as their "day job" and pitching to them this idea is what I have time for. Lot of stuff discussed here is based on assumptions, gut feeling and what perhaps common sense.
Arti
Thank you for the point about dual mode electrics. Of course, the MBTA Blue Line is a good example. OK, so technically, we can accept that as feasible.
"If they will be running less service, common sense would say that less rolling stock would be needed."
Unproven assertion - We don't yet know what "less service" means, or if it will be, in fact, less. The only thing we know is that if this plan were to work, we would gain long-term advantages of unit type commonality.
[Unproven assertion - We don't yet know what "less service" means, or if it will be, in fact, less. The only thing we know is that if this plan were to work, we would gain long-term advantages of unit type commonality. ]
What I really should have stated is that some of the money could come from the budget meant to replace LIRR fleet as those trains would be servicing LIRR routes, but that of course is too late.
Arti
Fair enough.
If I didn't know any better I would venture to say you either don't ride the subway much or you still have the horse blinders mounted. No amount of signal improvements will alleviate the crushloads on the Lex.
14% fewer people use the Lex today than did in 1960. These figures are available in the planning studies on the MTA website. They are also running 14% fewer trains at peak periods. If they ran the same number of trains that were run in 1960 then the load factors would be reduced to 86% of current levels. This means that the worst case leave load (between 86th and 59th on the express) would be reduced from 116% to 99%.
The public consensus is that a Second Avenue subway is now a critical necessity, not a luxury. Either build it, or give riders a choice of lubricating oil to slap on themselves before they tru to get on.
This "critical necessity" is generated by present NYCT managerial expertise not physical shortcomings. NYCT's greatest expertise has been in hiding this from the public.
"14% fewer people use the Lex today than did in 1960. These figures are available in the planning studies on the MTA website. They are also running 14% fewer trains at peak periods. If they ran the same number of trains that were run in 1960 then the load factors would be reduced to 86% of current levels. This means that the worst case leave load (between 86th and 59th on the express) would be reduced from 116% to 99%"
99% is still unacceptable. And what you're saying is that there's no room to grow. Ridership is growing.
"
As to the number of trains, I should bring up recent safety issues: one reason why the TA may need to run slightly fewer trains is for safety reasons. You may recall collisions caused by signal and brake systems which were designed for lighter cars. One answer is slower train speeds. Another is increasing the distance between each train.
The TA did, in fact, institute these measures.
This "critical necessity" (referring to 2nd Av subway)is generated by present NYCT managerial expertise not physical shortcomings. NYCT's greatest expertise has been in hiding this from the public."
Your own evidence, presented above, proves you wrong.
In summary, you would like the MTA to run its railroad with little safety margin and delay physical improvements until they are at 100% capacity. That's called incompetence.
Mind you, we didn't even deal with the fact that the Lex offers no service at all to the southeastern portion of Manhattan, which could benefit greatly from new subway service. It was another reason why 17,000 postcards showed up in Virgil Conway's office demanding that 2nd Av subway construction begin.
99% is still unacceptable.
The first priority should be to set acceptability standards.
Service load standards are based on giving each passenger a certain amount of physical area. It is not the same as crush load capacity.
And what you're saying is that there's no room to grow.
We did not yet compare differences in car design. The LV's significantly more usable passenger space inside with the same physical dimensions than their successors. We have not yet considered scheduling changes to bring main line service levels closer to 40 tph. Finally, we have not considered implementing new and old signalling systems that would bring this capacity above 60 tph. Such a system was in use on the Brooklyn Bridge to give 64 tph operation.
Ridership is growing.
There are realistic limits to such growth in the immediate future.
As to the number of trains, I should bring up recent safety issues: one reason why the TA may need to run slightly fewer trains is for safety reasons. You may recall collisions caused by signal and brake systems which were designed for lighter cars.
A more enlightened approach might be to enquire as to why the newer trains have inferior braking performance and bring them up to 1932 standards. A truly visionary management might even want to bring them up to Bluebird performance. Read the TA's powerpoint presentation or the NTSB report regarding the Williamsburg Bridge accident. It would be amusing were in not for the fact that a person was killed and $2.5 million damage was caused. The published braking rate for TA equipment is significantly less than the industry standard. Why?
One answer is slower train speeds. Another is increasing the distance between each train. The TA did, in fact, institute these measures.
The TA's response was slower trains. Running times were increased 10% on average. This meant that 10% more trains were required to maintain the same schedule. The TA actually reduced the number of available trains through innovative maintenace practices. This has resulted in fewer scheduled trains and increasing the average distance between trains. The TA has not increased the block lengths on the signal system.
In summary, you would like the MTA to run its railroad with little safety margin and delay physical improvements until they are at 100% capacity. That's called incompetence.
I would like the MTA to make greater use of the facilities they already have. That's called management.
It was another reason why 17,000 postcards showed up in Virgil Conway's office demanding that 2nd Av subway construction begin.
How many of them were members of the Allied Buildings Trade Council? :-)
99% is still unacceptable.
"The first priority should be to set acceptability standards."
In this case, that's comes under the heading of buraecratic passive-aggressive behavior. There are already common standards which any statistician will tell you. The assertion is nonsense.
"We did not yet compare differences in car design. The LV's significantly more usable passenger space inside with the same physical dimensions than their successors."
The new cars now coming into service are ADA-compliant, which means room has been designated for wheelchairs. This can affect both seating and standing capacity. Over time we'll see how passengers at rush hour like them.
"We have not yet considered scheduling changes to bring main line service levels closer to 40 tph. Finally, we have not considered implementing new and old signalling systems that would bring this capacity above 60 tph. Such a system was in use on the Brooklyn Bridge to give 64 tph operation."
With the old equipment. As for new signalling systems, I favor cab-based signalling, as to many others. But here is where politics (management vs. union, manufacturer vs. manufacturer) and budget (competing priorities)intercede. You can try to conveniently ignore realities (and pretend that you could fix them were you in power) or you can acknowledge their presence and try to accomplish something anyway. If Bill Gates had come to New York and written a check for $1 billion specifically for signalling and scheduling, it wouldn't have happened as simply as you would expect.
"I would like the MTA to make greater use of the facilities they already have. That's called management."
OK. But that's not the same as what you said in the previous post. What you asserted there was a recipe for incompetence.
It was another reason why 17,000 postcards showed up in Virgil Conway's office demanding that 2nd Av subway construction begin.
"How many of them were members of the Allied Buildings Trade Council? :-)"
I was involved in that effort. Those cards came from New Yorkers of every occupation and income level. And many of them would see your answer as a cheap shot from someone not familiar with the problem. I know you meant it as a joke, but your answer is telling: you take a strictly logical and engineering approach to the problem; unfortunately your answers consistently also show a failure to consider alternatives; and a failure to consider organizational (human) requirements. This is not Vulcan, and we are not all like Mr. Spock.
I'm willing to bet more than one person at MTA's highest levels probably thought of many of the things you suggest. The difference is that he or she had the organizational savvy to understood they were not politicially or fiscally "do-able" and was willing to compromise in order to deliver something to the riding public.
That may not be "ultimately perfect" or ultimately logical. But then, the first priority is to establish standards for that :-)
99% is still unacceptable.
"The first priority should be to set acceptability standards."
In this case, that's comes under the heading of buraecratic passive-aggressive behavior. There are already common standards which any statistician will tell you. The assertion is nonsense.
Yes, there already is such a standard. It is the service load, which amounts to a little over 4 square feet per passenger. You rejected this standard. What standard do you propose?
"We did not yet compare differences in car design. The LV's significantly more usable passenger space inside with the same physical dimensions than their successors."
The new cars now coming into service are ADA-compliant, which means room has been designated for wheelchairs. This can affect both seating and standing capacity.
The difference in usable interior space in the LV's has nothing to do with ADA compliance; it has to do with removing the operators cab when not in use. The LV's seated 48 passengers later designs seated 44.
Over time we'll see how passengers at rush hour like them.
The new cars have only 34 and 40 seats per car. What do you suppose the passenger reaction will be?
"We have not yet considered scheduling changes to bring main line service levels closer to 40 tph. Finally, we have not considered implementing new and old signalling systems that would bring this capacity above 60 tph. Such a system was in use on the Brooklyn Bridge to give 64 tph operation."
With the old equipment.
One of the benefits of using wayside signalling is that it is immediately applicable to all equipment. The Brooklyn Bridge wayside signalling system is just as capable of controlling 64 tph of R142's as it was of controlling gate cars.
As for new signalling systems, I favor cab-based signalling, as to many others.
There is nothing inherently wrong with cab-based signalling but what are your reasons? I'm curious, it's a good buzz word like CBTC but what are its benefits compared to other technologies in the NYCT environment?
But here is where politics (management vs. union, manufacturer vs. manufacturer) and budget (competing priorities) intercede. You can try to conveniently ignore realities (and pretend that you could fix them were you in power) or you can acknowledge their presence and try to accomplish something anyway.
I thought I was considering realities, solidly based on previous operations. You've got facilities that are under utilized why not just use them?
I was involved in that effort. Those cards came from New Yorkers of every occupation and income level. And many of them would see your answer as a cheap shot from someone not familiar with the problem. I know you meant it as a joke, but your answer is telling: you take a strictly logical and engineering approach to the problem;
unfortunately your answers consistently also show a failure to consider alternatives; and a failure to consider organizational (human) requirements. This is not Vulcan, and we are not all like Mr. Spock.
Ask yourself, is your objective to build a 2nd Ave Subway or to improve transportation on the East Side. The two may or may not coincide. If they don't, what is your priority?
[Ask yourself, is your objective to build a 2nd Ave Subway or to improve transportation on the East Side. The two may or may not coincide. If they don't, what is your priority? ]
Loop buses, perhaps for free would equalize a lot.
Arti
No, they won't. Too traffic dependent; inadequate capacity.
If the route would be short enough, let's say 10 blocks they could be quite predictable, also if you were to run them for free (like Q69) the fare control delay wouldn't be there, also using different style buses with more doors, less seating would improve capacity.
Arti
"If the route would be short enough, let's say 10 blocks they could be quite predictable, also if you were to run them for free (like Q69) the fare control delay wouldn't be there, also using different style buses with more doors, less seating would improve capacity."
1. How does a 10 block route get you from Harlem to the financial district? How does it even get you to midtown?
2. The bus is still traffic-bound, and slow.
3. The expense of running a bus and then doing for free with no improvement in service is just plain silly.
[1. How does a 10 block route get you from Harlem to the financial district? How does it even get you to midtown? ]
Let's take Midtown business district. Many Lex line users take it to get to N/R, E/F and 7. You could divert some of those people to buses easyng the load of Lex.
[2. The bus is still traffic-bound, and slow]
Rush hour Lex subway is also "traffi-bound" :-) and slow. I prefer to take a bus if I have to come home from 59th Street to 26th Street because the conditions are at least human. Time wise there's not much difference if I catch a limeted bus.
[3. The expense of running a bus and then doing for free with no improvement in service is just plain silly. ]
Lot of those people taking 7,E and F would be in 2 fare zone if they had to pay for a bus in Manhattan, so it would dicourage them to use it. Without fare the bus could get moving much faster.
Arti
"Let's take Midtown business district. Many Lex line users take it to get to N/R, E/F and 7. You could divert some of those people to buses easyng the load of Lex"
I asked you how you would transport somebody at least 60 blocks (to these other subways) and you want to divert them to buses running a 10-block route. I'll pretend you didn't read the question. Try again.
"Rush hour Lex subway is also "traffi-bound" :-) and slow. I prefer to take a bus if I have to come home from 59th Street to 26th Street because the conditions are at least human. Time wise there's not much difference if I catch a limeted bus."
But we're talking about going from 125th St or 110 St to the business district. And the Lex is still much faster on average than any bus you've been on.
Again, you being a great politician. I ask a question; you ignore it
and offer an irrelevant answer. Come on, Arti, get serious here.
Midtown free loop to ease load on Lex.
Loop buses between Subway stations traveling crosstown and via 1st and 2nd Avenues, they don't have to be free.
Arti
"Midtown free loop to ease load on Lex.
Loop buses between Subway stations traveling crosstown and via 1st and 2nd Avenues, they don't have to be free. "
OK-so if understand you, you want to redistribute where people get off by offering them loop buses to their final destination (eg they don't all get off at 42nd St to go east or west). For some local applications, maybe - for any kind of travel longer than a couple of local stops, forget it. The idea is unrealistic enough that it is, in Manhattan's context, anti-transit.
[OK-so if understand you, you want to redistribute where people get off by offering them loop buses to their final destination (eg they don't all get off at 42nd St to go east or west). ]
Not quite. The idea is to take N,R,E,F anf 7 riders heading to CBT destinations other than their respective stop off Lexington within CBT.
Arti
Ask yourself, is your objective to build a 2nd Ave Subway or to improve transportation on the East Side. The two may or may not coincide. If they don't, what is your priority?
Unfortunately, other proposed alternatives will not improve transportation to the East Side (which by necessity includes providing convenient access to the subway). Light rail in Manhattan has been proposed, but in the Manhattan environment, I don't know if it could get anywhere near the political support it would need (and there are logistical nightmares it could impose). Bus service on 2nd Av, regardless of fare level, will not replace a subway.
Thus, we are left with a subway as the only realistic option.
But there is good news: The engineering contract to be let next month specifies inclusion of existing 1970's-built 2nd Av tunnels north of the 63rd St line. Hopefully this will help reduce costs somewhat. It will also mean no consideration of a four-track line, but I am certainly willing to compromise on that, given the dollars involved.
[It will also mean no consideration of a four-track line, but I am certainly willing to compromise on that, given the dollars involved.
The question if 4 tracks would even be neccessary, as there seems to be no consideration to extend it past 125th Street.
Arti
"The question if 4 tracks would even be neccessary, as there seems to be no consideration to extend it past 125th Street."
Arti
You're suggesting that the express tracks on the Lex are used most by Bronx commuters, and that a local system in Manhattan only would be sufficient. I happen to know that a lot of Harlem commuters appreciate being able to ride an express downtown on the Lex, so the question becomes, are commuters from the proposed 125 St and 110 St stations enough to justify four tracks?
[You're suggesting that the express tracks on the Lex are used most by Bronx commuters]
I'm suggesting that 4 track capacity is not needed.
[I happen to know that a lot of Harlem commuters appreciate being able to ride an express downtown on the Lex, so the question becomes, are commuters from the proposed 125 St and 110 St stations enough to justify four tracks? ]
2nd Ave (Stubway) is going to be Bway express. Most of the system in NYC has expresses ending as locals at the end of the line.
Arti
The document as written does not appear to be a "stubway" in the same sense as the original plan. Rather than speculate, though, and to clarify the situation, I have written to MTA asking for more specifics. Will a transfer ramp be built from this Second Av line to the 63rd St line's westbound bellmouth? (Document states the first contract design is to 57th)
As the MTA has been very good about answering my past queries, I will await this reply and post it here.
You're suggesting that the express tracks on the Lex are used most by Bronx commuters, and that a local system in Manhattan only would be sufficient. I happen to know that a lot of Harlem commuters appreciate being able to ride an express downtown on the Lex, so the question becomes, are commuters from the proposed 125 St and 110 St stations enough to justify four tracks?
According to study available on the MTA website during the peak AM hour: 29,583 passengers arrive at 125th St from the Bronx. They are fairly evenly distributed between the operating trains on the #4, #5 and #6 services. There are 21,978 passengers leaving 125th St on the expresses and 7,182 passengers leaving on the locals for a total of 29,160 passengers. It means that on net 125th St is a destination not a starting point.
If you read further, you would discover that the number of passengers using the Lex stations between 103rd and 125th decreased from 60,670 to 35,244 between 1960 and 1995.
Before you commit my tax dollars to building a "subway of dreams" (build it and passengers will come). I would suggest that you examine the stark reality of the planning study figures, before spending the maximum amount of money for a marginal return.
"According to study available on the MTA website during the peak AM hour: 29,583 passengers arrive at 125th St from the Bronx. They are fairly evenly distributed between the operating trains on the #4, #5 and #6 services. There are 21,978 passengers leaving 125th St on the expresses and 7,182 passengers leaving on the locals for a total of 29,160 passengers. It means that on net 125th St is a destination not a starting point."
You don't know how to interpret your own data. The above means 125th St is a pass-through and a redistribution point for further travel (though with the recent boom there it is becoming a destination point as well).
"If you read further, you would discover that the number of passengers using the Lex stations between 103rd and 125th decreased from 60,670 to 35,244 between 1960 and 1995."
Fine - but you're quoting 6 year old numbers. NY's economy got better during the 1995-1999 period; last November ridership overall was up to 7 million per day on the whole system. 1995 is irrelevant, unless your purpose is to obfuscate(which in this case, it probably is :0) ) - I'm interested in 2000-2001.
"Before you commit my tax dollars to building a "subway of dreams" (build it and passengers will come). I would suggest that you examine the stark reality of the planning study figures, before spending the maximum amount of money for a marginal return."
First, it's our tax dollars, not "your" tax dollars. Second, you completely (and deliberately) ignore the documented linkage between transit development and property values. It's not "build it and they will come," it's "build it, watch developers put up new properties, watch new business migrate in, watch people come as demand and rents increase together." This was documented beyond debate in Jamaica, Roosevelt Island, Atlanta's downtown districts (was there for 6 months, saw it happen - at least $100 more per month for a one-bedroom apartment near MARTA than one a few blocks away). If you're going to talk economics, you need to look at macroeconomics here in addition to microeconomics.
You did a much better job discussing physics and brakes. A+ there. A D here.
The data say that 29,583 entered 125th St on all trains from the Bronx and only 29,160 left 125th St on all trains going downtown. What happend to the unaccounted for 423 rush hour passengers? Did they decide to turn around and go back to the Bronx despite the late Ogden Nash's warning, did they decide to linger within the 125th St Station admiring its ambiance or did they as I assumed decide to leave the station because it was their destination. Either most of the people entering 125th St are going uptown during the morning rush hour or as I stated on net during the peak AM rush hour 125th St is a destination not a station of origin.
One would have assumed that the downtown trains leaving 125th St would carry more people than the downtown trains that entered it during the peak hour of the AM rush hour. The reverse is true. Just how many of the Harlem residents you know of are planning to use the Lex Express. They don't exist statistically.
Fine - but you're quoting 6 year old numbers. NY's economy got better during the 1995-1999 period; last November ridership overall was up to 7 million per day on the whole system. 1995 is irrelevant, unless your purpose is to obfuscate(which in this case, it probably is :0) ) - I'm interested in 2000-2001.
I'm also interested in getting current and meaningful figures. Not all 7 million passengers are using the Lex, so please stop using this figure to justify a new subway until you can say with reasonable certainty where and when these additional crowds are using the subway.
I am using the latest figures that are available. I would be happy to analyze more current figures. They might alter my opinion but I will not alter my analytical methods to fudge a need for a new line when the cold figures do not justify it.
First, it's our tax dollars, not "your" tax dollars. Second, you completely (and deliberately) ignore the documented linkage between transit development and property values.It's not "build it and they will come," it's "build it, watch developers put up new properties, watch new business migrate in, watch people come as demand and rents increase together."
Are you suggesting that proposed 2nd Ave Line will be the first step in a Robert Moses style Title I slum clearance project? How many existing Harlem residents want to be gentrified out of their neighborhood?
This was documented beyond debate in Jamaica, Roosevelt Island, Atlanta's downtown districts (was there for 6 months, saw it happen - at least $100 more per month for a one-bedroom apartment near MARTA than one a few blocks away). If you're going to talk economics, you need to look at macroeconomics here in addition to microeconomics.
Jamaica has not recovered to half its pre-1960 glory days. Several factors killed it, most notably the major department stores in Rego Park. Rego Park and Forest Hills residents shopped in Jamaica or Herald Square prior to the arrival of Alexanders, Macy's, Queens Mall et al.
Roosevelt Island is a more interesting example. It was built with public money for the purpose of creating a residential community that was integrated both racially and economically. One problem is that they never quite got around to providing the level of economic itegration that was promised. They have a chance to remedy this with new construction. Guess what - no low income housing for the new buildings. What do you think would happen to this "gated" community, if they were forced to accept the Harlem residents who will be displaced by encroaching gentrification.
I have no doubt that property values are increased by access to convenient transportation. I don't think you cited very good examples because the benefits that cannot be ascribed solely to transit. I have no knowledge of Atlanta except that the surrounding communities have contained its expansion, ya'all.
"Just how many of the Harlem residents you know of are planning to use the Lex Express. They don't exist statistically."
A majority will use them.
In your previous post, you claim that 125 is a destination stop because about 1% of all passengers entering the station actually get off. The rest (99%)continue their journey downtown, transferring from local to express or vice-versa.
At this point, one evaluates your posts and concludes "He either doesn't know any statistics (strange, because you seem to know your physics pretty well, so why do you stumble over this), or he's just BSng for its own sake because he knows he doesn't have a leg to stand on(my conclusion). It makes it difficult to take your posts seriously. But if that's what you want to do, it's perfectly OK.
In your previous post, you claim that 125 is a destination stop because about 1% of all passengers entering the station actually get off. The rest (99%)continue their journey downtown, transferring from local to express or vice-versa.
I said it was a NET destination because more people left the station on foot than entered it on foot.
"He either doesn't know any statistics (strange, because you seem to know your physics pretty well, so why do you stumble over this), or he's just BSng for its own sake because he knows he doesn't have a leg to stand on(my conclusion).
Why don't you perform a chi-squared test to determine which hypothesis is statistically significant? :-)
I might also suggest that you also consider the hypothesis that numbers presented in the MTA study do not justify expenditure for a new line.
Might I humbly suggest that you review the study's AM Peak Hour Leave Load data. It clearly shows that by increasing the number of locals running south of 125th St to 34 tph and eliminating the express stop at 86th St, then both express and local would run at less than 85% of their service load levels. Such an increase would require 13 additional operating trainsets. These trainsets would be required whether or not they actually ever build the 2nd Ave Subway.
You have only mentioned Bronx riders. I don't know if the MTA study also included the number of people actually entering the 125 St turnstiles. I've been to that station and can tell you the number will not be statistically insignificant. Did the MTA study include a count from the 125 St turnstiles, and if so, what was it?
1995 data is not very relevant given current ridership levels.
However, to be completely fair to you, Steve, I would answer that we would need to start with fresh data (year 2000), broken down to provide appropriate detail. We know there were 7 million daily riders, and while it is entirely reasonable to use historical patterns to extrapolate what Lexington Av ridership would be, I agree that freshly collected data are best. Having that, we could set up some models and test them. But if such a study were not performed, a reasonable estimation could still be had.
As to the additional trainsets needed, you are absolutely correct. In fact, I concede that a full-length Second Av subway will require more than 13 trainsets, and at some point during its construction, orders will need to be placed for these trains (either new trains or withdrawn trains which are re-built and reintroduced). I do not know what the interim service to 63rd St would require. Obviously, it means some trainsets would be needed in service before completing the entire line (I am setting aside for now the replacement requirement during that same time).
You have only mentioned Bronx riders. I don't know if the MTA study also included the number of people actually entering the 125 St turnstiles. I've been to that station and can tell you the number will not be statistically insignificant. Did the MTA study include a count from the 125 St turnstiles, and if so, what was it?
Why don't you read the document for yourself. It is a public document that is available for the reading. There are many weaknesses in the methodology used to collect data and much missing data that would answer many questions.
It would seem obvious that an analysis of peak hour traffic should rely on peak hour data. They do not have peak hour turnstile counts. This data is much easier to obtain with the new turnstiles. The study does provide three pieces of data that can answer your question in a qualitative manner. One is the "Average Weekday Registrations" by station in Table 9D-2 and the second is the "Top Twenty Origin Destination Pairs" in Table 9D-6 and the last is the last is the "AM Peak Hour Leave Load Summary" in Table 9D-9. I think that any reasonable analysis of this data would conclude that the contribution of passengers passing through the turnstiles at 125th St is negligible to the overall picture. I base this on the following: station registrations at 125th St are below that of every station south of 96th St; the number of passengers on trains leaving 125th St is less than the number of passengers arriving on trains at 125th St; and upper East Siders rank 7 and 17 as places of origin for Lex Ave users for the top 20 categories. I'm sure there may be some reasoning that would contradict my conclusion and still fit these findings. I'd be curious to see it.
I would answer that we would need to start with fresh data (year 2000), broken down to provide appropriate detail. We know there were 7 million daily riders, and while it is entirely reasonable to use historical patterns to extrapolate what Lexington Av ridership would be, I agree that freshly collected data are best. Having that, we could set up some models and test them. But if such a study were not performed, a reasonable estimation could still be had.
I'm all for using accurate data and analyzing it. My question is do you decide to build a 2nd Ave Subway before or after you analyze this data? Your rush to the jack hammers reminds me of the line in the old westerns: give him a fair trial and then hang him.
As to the additional trainsets needed, you are absolutely correct. In fact, I concede that a full-length Second Av subway will require
more than 13 trainsets, and at some point during its construction, orders will need to be placed for these trains (either new trains or
withdrawn trains which are re-built and reintroduced). I do not know what the interim service to 63rd St would require. Obviously, it
means some trainsets would be needed in service before completing the entire line (I am setting aside for now the replacement
requirement during that same time).
I'm happy to hear that you are planning to include additional rolling stock in your 2nd Ave Subway plans. It would appear obvious that any new subway should require rolling stock to be of any practical use. But one should not assume anything from a city that is capable of building an East River tunnel without connections on either side.
Of course, one might obtain the new trainsets before building the 2nd Ave Subway. That way they could be used to see what would happen, if service on the Lex were increased to the 1954 levels. The only downside to this experiment is that it might show that the 2nd Ave Subway was not needed so urgently.
You still haven't addressed the redistribution issue. 99% of passengers redistribute at 125 St to travel further. Since the Second Av subway terminal will begin at Lex and 125 St, within a rebuilt fare control, it stands to reason that these people will redistribute themselves to the Second Av subway as well.
"I'm all for using accurate data and analyzing it. My question is do you decide to build a 2nd Ave Subway before or after you analyze this data? Your rush to the jack hammers reminds me of the line in the old westerns: give him a fair trial and then hang him."
I said it would nice to have 2000 data, not essential. There is more than enough evidence to support a 2nd Av construction right now. Also more than enough public support for it.
Which brings me to another point. One of the reasons people in Manhattan and the Bronx have cried out for this subway is convenience. They want stations within shorter walking distances of where they board or get off. They've made that clear. They've also made clear that they want transit development in their neighborhoods. While that argument itself doesn't speak directly to the "How can we improve service while expending the least amount of money?" it is a very legitimate argument in a democracy. If enough people want it, and have told the politicians they elected that they want it, and the politicians say "OK, let's do it," then that is an acceptable outcome. Even if I agreed with your conclusions, I could not defend overruling the wishes of a majority of the public.
You still haven't addressed the redistribution issue. 99% of passengers redistribute at 125 St to travel further.
The only time that 99% of passengers on a train redistribute at 125th St is when that train is being taken out of service.
I have timed the operation at 125th St. Passengers do not play "musical trains". There is a substantial movement of passengers from the local to the express, especially when both platform at the same time. The data in the MTA study show this movement. Expresses arrive at 125th St with an average load level of 60.5%. Locals arrive at 125th St with an average load level of 56%. Expresses leave 125th St with an average load level of 74% and locals leave 125th St with an average load level of 31%. These percentages are based on the service level loads NOT the crush loads. While this data reflects the net effect of the changes, it also shows that your figure of 99% is impossible unless a significant number of passengers change from express to local and back again at 125th St. Also note that the 31% leave load level for the locals means that 22% of the available seats are empty!
I said it would nice to have 2000 data, not essential.
Good, does that mean that the 1995 data has suddenly become relevant.
There is more than enough evidence to support a 2nd Av construction right now.
That's the kind of attitude that sunk the Japanese fishing vessel off Pearl Harbor!
Also more than enough public support for it.
If there is public support for spending money, directing it towards a 2nd Ave Subway does not provide forseeable relief for decades. It does not address the current problems on the Lex which can be solved more quickly (2-5 years). It does provide an excuse for continued poor management of the existing facility, until the 2nd Ave nirvana arrives in 2020.
Which brings me to another point. One of the reasons people in Manhattan and the Bronx have cried out for this subway is convenience. They want stations within shorter walking distances of where they board or get off.
A line that runs along 2nd Ave and terminates at 125th St will not provide a shorter walking distance for a single Bronx resident.
You have ruled out the setting of objective standards as bureaucratic obfuscation. Most NYC residents would be surprised to learn that the Upper East Siders are not already within walking distance of a subway station.
In the absence of any specific standards, I've decided to apply the most relevant one I could find. NYC public school students at the 4th grade level and above, are expected to walk to their schools if the walking distance from their residence to the school is within 3/4 mile. They are NOT entitled to free bus service under these circumstances.
Application of these standards for 10 year olds reveals that the entire Upper East Side is within walking distance of their closest subway station entrance.
If enough people want it, and have told the politicians they elected that they want it, and the politicians say "OK, let's do it," then that is an acceptable outcome. Even if I agreed with your conclusions, I could not defend overruling the wishes of a majority of the public.
I distinctly believe that the people's wishes were to eliminate the overcrowding on the Lex. The only option they have been given by the MTA is a 2nd Ave Subway. There are less costly options that have not received the same attention. Did you make the 17,000 signees of your petition aware of these alternatives.
This question is academic because the vox populii also indicated that they are unwilling to spend the money necessary to build a 2nd Ave Subway.
". There is a substantial movement of passengers from the local to the express, especially when both platform at the same time. The data in the MTA study show this movement. Expresses arrive at 125th St with an average load level of 60.5%. Locals arrive at 125th St with an average load level of 56%. Expresses leave 125th St with an average load level of 74% and locals leave 125th St with an average load level of 31."
Assuming you've measured correctly, it proves my point. There is good opportunity to resdistribute to a 2nd Av system.
Also more than enough public support for it.
"If there is public support for spending money, directing it towards a 2nd Ave Subway does not provide forseeable relief for decades. It does not address the current problems on the Lex which can be solved more quickly (2-5 years). It does provide an excuse for continued poor management of the existing facility, until the 2nd Ave nirvana arrives in 2020."
That is your mostly unsupported opinion, which is clearly in the minority. But you're entitled to it.
"This question is academic because the vox populii also indicated that they are unwilling to spend the money necessary to build a 2nd Ave Subway."
Wrong. They've clearly indicated they are willing to spend it. Some may not like the Bond Act method of financing, however. Moreover, there was a great deal of confusion over exactly what the Bond Act would do and not do. In the metropolitan area, the Bond Act passed overwhelmingly - the problem was that up to 67% of people voting did not even see the lever on their voting machines for the question. So the "drop off" eg people neither voting yeah nor nay was high. Upstate, the measure was defeated, and drop off was much lower.
"A line that runs along 2nd Ave and terminates at 125th St will not provide a shorter walking distance for a single Bronx resident."
Are millions of Manhattanites enough for you? Would you like to ignore their wishes?
In the absence of any specific standards, I've decided to apply the most relevant one I could find. NYC public school students at the 4th grade level and above, are expected to walk to their schools if the walking distance from their residence to the school is within 3/4 mile. They are NOT entitled to free bus service under these circumstances.
Many New Yorkers have greater difficulty walking 3/4 mile than the average fourth grader.
And what about at the other end of the trip? Do you make another 3/4-mile allowance there?
A 3/4-mile commute is, of course, reasonably done on foot. That doesn't make a 3/4-mile walk followed by a subway ride followed by another 3/4-mile walk reasonable.
Application of these standards for 10 year olds reveals that the entire Upper East Side is within walking distance of their closest subway station entrance.
Sorry, the corner of East End Avenue and 90th Street is greater than 3/4 mile from the nearest subway station entrance (Lexington Avenue and 86th Street). (MapBlast -- no, not the greatest of sources for this sort of thing, but I can't think of anything better -- gives a distance of 0.85 miles.)
Many New Yorkers have greater difficulty walking 3/4 mile than the average fourth grader.
Perhaps they should be accompanied by a personal trainer. :-)
In a more serious vein, there is a bus system and an unlimited fare card. The Metrocard pay per ride structure is quite complex and convoluted. I've always thought a 2 hour unlimited pass would be more equitable and easier to administer and monitor. The problem is that there are some areas within the city limits that are more than 3/4 mile from a bus stop.
...the corner of East End Avenue and 90th Street is greater than 3/4 mile from the nearest subway station entrance (Lexington Avenue and 86th Street).
I guess they should be entitled to free bus service like 4th graders. Doesn't that solitary resident at East End Ave and 90th St already get free limousine service and a police escort? Did I miss anybody else?
"I guess they should be entitled to free bus service like 4th graders. Doesn't that solitary resident at East End Ave and 90th St already get free limousine service and a police escort? Did I miss anybody else?"
Nobody important. Just the millions of people in the Bronx and Manhattan. But maybe, if you try hard enough, you can convince Staten Islanders that they can stop riding their north-shore rail line. :0)
See my loop bus idea.
Arti
OK - I did read it for myself. It reports over 12,000 entries to 125th St station, and a 45% increase in turnstile counts compared to 1990, when entries starting climbing again after a long decline. In fact, 116th and 125th St together (the two stations in Harlem) account for nearly 20,000 1995 turnstile entries, according to the study. Economic trends in Harlem point to increasing ridership, and a new subway on 2nd Av will provide new destinations on the lower East Side and financial district. So it is not unreasonable to expect to see even higher ridership today.
So, where does 2nd Av ridership come from?
1) redistribution of riders coming from the Bronx, since 125 St will be a terminal for Lex and 2nd Av trains all within the same fare control
2) a portion of the riders entering 125th St itself, which could be expected to increase. Another possible source of increase (I will not predict how much) will be from some people living between 125 and 116 St will use 125th St instead to get on the 2nd Av line.
OK - I did read it for myself. It reports over 12,000 entries to 125th St station, and a 45% increase in turnstile counts compared to 1990, when entries starting climbing again after a long decline. In fact, 116th and 125th St together (the two stations in Harlem) account for nearly 20,000 1995 turnstile entries, according to the study. Economic trends in Harlem point to increasing ridership, and a new subway on 2nd Av will provide new destinations on the lower East Side and financial district. So it is not unreasonable to expect to see even higher ridership today.
When will the number of 125th St entries approach the 1960 level of 21,000? Does this value place a realistic limit on any projected growth? For how long?
The problem is transporting passengers downtown. The recent economic development towards making Harlem a office center and job center does not contribute to this problem. It may help it by displacing destinations from midtown - like from 57th St to 125th.
The major question is: how did the Lex manage to operate in 1960 with nearly 17% more passengers than in 1995? Crowding was less then. The answer is that they ran 37% more trains. What would happen to today's crowds, if they ran the 1960 service levels? There are more optimum solutions that involve routing changes. But simply running more of what you are currently doing is a no brainer that should and can be tried before more extreme measures are contemplated.
"When will the number of 125th St entries approach the 1960 level of 21,000? Does this value place a realistic limit on any projected growth? For how long?"
Is that 1960 figure printed on some tablet somewhere that Moses brought down with him from the Heavens?
"The problem is transporting passengers downtown. The recent economic development towards making Harlem a office center and job center does not contribute to this problem. It may help it by displacing destinations from midtown - like from 57th St to 125th."
No, it more than likely will add, not displace. It may also increase demands for uptown commuting. (Hey, I'm all for it. I think Harlem's improvement is great).
"But simply running more of what you are currently doing is a no brainer that should and can be tried before more extreme measures are contemplated."
It isn't a no-brainer when you haven't begun to address the costs and feasibility of doing so. This isn't a private business where you can add and subtract workers anytime you want; this isn't Vulcan, where everyone thinks rationally and logically all the time; and squeezing the last 20% of efficiency out of something often costsmore than it's worth (look at the way software development works today). How much would it cost and how long to replace the fixed-block signals with modern computer controls on the entire Lex system, then on the entire subway. How much to retrofit rolling stock? How much to compensate the unions and change contracts? And then, having done that, how much improvement do you get?
So building a new tunnel isn't always an "extreme" measure. Sometimes, it's easier (and better).
[That way they could be used to see what would happen, if service on the Lex were increased to the 1954 levels. The only downside to this experiment is that it might show that the 2nd Ave Subway was not needed so urgently.]
You convinced me long ago that the Second Avenue subway isn't necessary to reduce the load on the Lexington Ave, but it seems to me that population density and traffic flow still mandate it's construction.
[1995 data is not very relevant given current ridership levels. ]
On the same token one could say that year 2000 data is irrelevant to something what gets finished in 2020 or whenever.
Arti
"On the same token one could say that year 2000 data is irrelevant to something what gets finished in 2020 or whenever."
True. But if you want to play that game, maybe we should we just stay in caves, gather food from the forest and forgo all the complications of modern life?
[But if you want to play that game, maybe we should we just stay in caves, gather food from the forest and forgo all the complications of modern life? ]
Huh?
Arti
My point is that you do what you can to anticipate future needs and meet them. Subway lines have historically been very good at stimulating and helping sustain economic progress in New York. They are not panaceas by any means; they cannot by themselves prevent riots, war, pestilence, the drug trade. But it is their presence which is one factor (not the only factor) which helps recovery. Look at Jamaica. Steve Baumann scoffs because Jamaica isn't back to its 1960 "glory." But it sure as hell looks better than it did in 1975, and it keeps getting better. There's still a lot of work to be done, but hey, if life were perfect we'd all die of boredom...
My point was that what's the big difference of using 1995 data verus 2000 data to plan something what get's done in 2020.
Arti
"My point was that what's the big difference of using 1995 data verus 2000 data to plan something what get's done in 2020."
So what? Subway construction, especially since we've started paying attention to environmental issues, noisemitigation, etc. has always taken a long time (whether here or in DC or i San Francisco). You've just woken up to it now? I think this could be built in a shorter amount of time, but a lot of obstacles will prevent that. Some will not be legitimate and you and Steve will no doubt gripe about them (justifiably) and so will I.
The subways were extensively rebuilt during the 1980's and 1990's. A 20 year process, even longer if youconsider the political groundwork that had to happen first. That helped New York City's economy improve as well (it was only one factor helping). Without a rebuilt system, though, the current ridership would not be there. If MTA had been following your logic in 1982 instead of Mr. Kiley's, we'd all be staring at marked up windows trying to guess which subway stop was next and if we needed an umbrella to keep from taking a shower with pipe water.
[So what? Subway construction, especially since we've started paying attention to environmental issues, noisemitigation, etc. has always taken a long time (whether here or in DC or i San Francisco). ]
That's been an issue since they started 63rd Street connector.
[You've just woken up to it now? I think this could be built in a shorter amount of time, but a lot of obstacles will prevent that. Some will not be legitimate and you and Steve will no doubt gripe about them (justifiably) and so will I. ]
No, I've been awake for quite a while. Have you ever realized that to accomlish some project you need the funding for that? 20 Billion $ project could be accomplished in 1 year if that money was there! If you have $1B it'll take 20 years. The question I have is, can the situation be improved RIGHT NOW. I see some ways, and I don't want to wait till I'm dead.
[If MTA had been following your logic in 1982 instead of Mr. Kiley's, we'd all be staring at marked up windows trying to guess which subway stop was next and if we needed an umbrella to keep from taking a shower with pipe water. ]
As I've said before you seem to have no scrutiny of MTA, I on the other hand don't believe they are God. TSM IMHO can yield a lot of customer satisfaction. "Brute force" is not always the answer. There are options right now and not 20 years from now! .....
Arti
"20 Billion $ project could be accomplished in 1 year if that money was there! If you have $1B it'll take 20 years"
No, if you have only $1 billion a year it will take longer, because of inflation. (Hey, wait a minute, that your line, Arti! But it's true). That is why I favor doing as much as possible early. I do not assume that MTA will have exactly $1 billion a year, though. What they have depends on how the Capital Plans unfold.
"That's been an issue since they started 63rd Street connector."
That's been an issue since the 1950's at least, to one extent or another.
"As I've said before you seem to have no scrutiny of MTA, I on the other hand don't believe they are God"
No, I believe they need a lot of scrutiny. But unless I want to restrict my writing to my debate with you on this site, there are two things I need to do, which you don't need to bother with, in order to enhance my effectiveness as an advocate. I need to acknowledge progress where it is made, even if it is not exactly what I personally custom-ordered; I need to be careful to pick my battles, because the kind of "nit-picking" I often read on this site would eventually reduce my credibility in a political forum, and I need to understand what the MTA is doing and why, not just dismiss them as incompetent boobs all the time. And MTA, being answerable to politicians (whom we elect) sometimes has to do things the government wants them to do, even if it isn't absolutely the smartest (like buying bug-ridden R-68's from Bombardier). And yes, politics are important. It's sometimes frustrating, but can be empowering too.
Did you read Anon-e-mous' posting on the R-46' cost and its relationship to cab vs. non-cab units? Read it, and then reread Steve Baumann's complaints about MTA's link-bar policy - they don't make as much sense now, do they?
You don't think MTA is God? That's fine, but your posts can make you come off looking like everyone at MTA is an idiot and if you worked there, everything would just be hunky-dory. My guess is you don't have much of a clue as to the environment MTA operates in.
Be critical, but be fair.
[No, if you have only $1 billion a year it will take longer, because of inflation. (Hey, wait a minute, that your line, Arti! But it's true). That is why I favor doing as much as possible early. I do not assume that MTA will have exactly $1 billion a year, though. What they have depends on how the Capital Plans unfold. ]
Depends what's the source of money, if it's borrowed you'd have to count in interest, generally a higher percentage than inflation. That brings us to another issue what Larry has pointed out long ago, with current financing schemes will MTA be able finance anything in the upcoming capital plans? If you remember he opposed the bond act as irresponsible.
Arti
"Depends what's the source of money, if it's borrowed you'd have to count in interest, generally a higher percentage than inflation."
That is very true.
"That brings us to another issue what Larry has pointed out long ago, with current financing schemes will MTA be able finance anything in the upcoming capital plans? If you remember he opposed the bond act as irresponsible."
Larry did criticize the bond act. The act itself left something to be desired, but one aspect of it was very responsible - it was to have replaced $1 billion in fare-backed debt with a general obligation bond, spreading the cost of the Capital Plan to a wider audience. Since a lot of people indirectly benefit from MTA, and since MTA plays a crucial role in maintaining quality of life and economic growth in the state, this was quite reasonable and fair -and it would remove some burden from city folks, who already subsidize the rides of the suburban riders. On balance, I supported it (and voted for it) as did many in the city. But I agree that it was controversial (though the need for the Second Av subway is not).
There is mention of purchasing cars before 2nd av. subway is completed. Need anyone here be reminded of the last 2 times this happened? The first time resulted in the R-11/34. Cars that remained useless prototypes. But those were not nearly as bad as the R-44, which became total disasters because they never ran on an automated line, but had automated equipment.
If you do order 2nd. av equipment, It had better be similar to R-68 equipment; simplified. Otherwise we could end up with an r-183 that runs backward and doesn't open it's doors when ordered to.
It's true that the R-44 and R-46 arrived with equipment they couldn't use. But they would have needed debugging regardless of which line they were used on.
New York needs new rolling stock on the B division - even Steve and Arti agree with that. Thus, purchasing additional rolling stock in advance for a new subway line need not be a disaster per se. The cars can come from the same line.
[even Steve and Arti agree with that. ]
Hey, I don't consider myself a Luddist and neither is Steve :-)
But seriously, I realize that any problem could be solved by spending UNLIMETED amount of money on it, that's what we donn't have here.
Arti
"even Steve and Arti agree with that. ] "
"Hey, I don't consider myself a Luddist and neither is Steve :-)"
I never accused you (or Steve) of being a "Luddite." You're against building a Second Av subway. Luddites reject modern technology.
But seriously, I realize that any problem could be solved by spending UNLIMETED amount of money on it, that's what we donn't have here.
If we had unlimited money, there would be nothing to argue about on Subtalk. :0)
R-44 and 46 cars did not need 'debugging' they needed rebuilding. And, don't forget the lonely R-11, a loner for it's whole life (much like the r-110b will be). Granted R-44's would have had problems. But when a system is in use (auto control on r-44's), it is much easier to find the problems.
I thought the 1954 capacity map gave the local capacity south of 125th Street as 30 tph.
Also, I doubt you could close the 86th Street express stop -- apart from the fact that it would adversely affect a lot of people, the station is heavily used and the platforms are typically grossly overcrowded. Don't know how many are transfer passengers, but that station is smack in the middle of one of the densest population zones in the world.
I thought the 1954 capacity map gave the local capacity south of 125th Street as 30 tph.
Yes it does and I consulted it before I wrote that post. However, they did operate 40 tph on the section between Grand Central (96th actually) and Brooklyn Bridge prior to the Dual Contracts, with greater load levels, so the City Hall loop is not a limiting factor. The extra locals would be turned at 3rd Ave & 138th St and possibly 59th St so as not tax the existing terminal facilities.
Also, I doubt you could close the 86th Street express stop -- apart from the fact that it would adversely affect a lot of people, the station is heavily used and the platforms are typically grossly overcrowded. Don't know how many are transfer passengers, but that station is smack in the middle of one of the densest population zones in the world.
Clearly, closing the 86th St express stop cannot be done without simultaneously raising the number of locals by almost 50%. The locals currently leave 86th St with only a 53% load level compared to the express's 116%. The local's top load level comes between 59th and 51st Sts - 90%. There's more than enough additionl capacity, With only 21-23 peak hour trains on the local.
[The extra locals would be turned at 3rd Ave & 138th St and possibly 59th St so as not tax the existing terminal facilities. ]
I think they should have put-in's on 59th Street, when there's a delay uptown (and from my experience it's a dayli occurance) use it.
Arti
I think they should have put-in's on 59th Street, when there's a delay uptown (and from my experience it's a dayli occurance) use it.
The point is to put the service where it's needed as opposed to the Keeler philosophy of "where it aint". This optimises facility use. The local load levels are greatest between 59th and Grand Central. The express actually looses passengers at 59th but the locals get up to 90% of service load. While it's nice to have the turnout as an emergency measure, it can provide additional routing capabilities. It's a shame they did place a similar facility on the express tracks, when the created the express stop in the late 50's.
[The local load levels are greatest between 59th and Grand Central]
That's most likely becaus people use it commute from the place of work to connecting trains (N,R,E,F,7.) My idea would be to use a free loop bus to take them off Lex. Free, because it would put a lot of people in 2 fare zone and without fare control things get moving faster. The terminal would be on 63rd Street @ Lex, stopping at 60th Street N,R entrance, 53rd St E,F entrance and on 42nd Street b/w Lex and 3rd at the 7 entrance.
Arti
The loop bus for local use isn't a terrible idea, esp. if it provides more than just north-south transit. But a midtown loop bus will not solve any of the problems arising north of the business district. That's why you need another subway.
[But a midtown loop bus will not solve any of the problems arising north of the business district. That's why you need another subway. ]
Similar service but now on 1st and 2nd Avenues feeding Lex stations could benefit Upper East Side riders in a short term and right now. The routes could be from 86th Street station via 1st Ave to 96th Street station returning via 2nd Ave (and so on.) They should collect fare though. As these routes are very short the timelyness could be easyer to achieve.
Arti
How many buses do you think you will need to divert a reasonable number of people from the subway? (Naturally I'd expect a numerical justification.) :-)
Depends what kind of buses. Ideally I'd use something like this:
I'd also reduce the seating, perhaps benches like IRT cars.
Assuming 170 passanger capacity (the spec of above Volvo) and running 1 minute headways, 5000 - 10000 passangers an hour IMHO should have some impact.
Now back to reality the nice thing about bus routes that they can be tried out without much expense. Let's not forget that another issue here is not only the capacity, but will people use them?
Arti
Do you really want to put a 60 foot bus on Lex? Blocks are only 260 feet long. Suppose you were limited to 40 footers? How many would you need to maintain the 1 minute headways? At about $500K per bus, how much would the initial outlay run? Also what about operating and maintenance costs? How would you measure the experiment's success? How long should the experiment run? Political football - who should operate them?
As I said the impact could be inexpensevely evaluated by test runs. If the trial is a failiure, not that money was lost, if it's a success your guestions would apply.
Arti
I think you misinterpreted my reply. I was not being negative. You really must present the answers to these questions with your proposal. I see something in the neighborhood of $20-25 million for a 2 year project. Somebody will need some some justification to sign off on that amount.
What do you think?
Arti
This is your baby not mine. I don't know if it would make an impact or not. I'm willing to look at serious plan. A map with a circle drawn on it lacks a few important details and almost everyone knows the devil is in the details. :-)
Articulated buses are great for high density routes with the required road clearances (that is, not a lot of narrow streets), or for longer-distance cruise (like on a busway). The above bus could certainly work out for a downtown loop.
You're proposing a nice service for a square of ground where your lamp is shining. Just don't assume that it will work north of you, where you are not focused, or in the "big picture," which you are also not focused on.
[You're proposing a nice service for a square of ground where your lamp is shining. Just don't assume that it will work north of you, where you are not focused, or in the "big picture," which you are also not focused on. ]
I preception is that a lot of Lex passangers crowd the line in CBD, if that could be eliminated the world would be a better place :-), but seriously. That would benifit anyone along the line, and as I posted before, similar scheme could be applied uptown too.
Key elements, IMHO, short routes, thus possible to keep on time.
Arti
The most significant result achieved from eliminating express trains at 86th St would be a lot of angry passengers. That and reduced safety margins on the local...
The most significant result achieved from eliminating express trains at 86th St would be a lot of angry passengers.
Certainly the good residents of Yorkville loose some options. Perhaps an appeal to the greater good of the fatherland might have some appeal. Is the Bund still active? :-)
The favored trip destination for Upper East Siders is the East Midtown area over Lower Manhattan by a 2:1 margin. (Table 9D-6). This means that 67% of these people can use the local to get to their destination. The remainder will have to make a cross platform change or downstairs change at either 59th, Grand Central, Union Sq or Brooklyn Bridge. Their number is is 7,511 or 15 per car over the entire AM peak period.
If the express stop were to be eliminated, then 12,393 passengers would be shifted from the express to the local at 86th St. These would be added to the 13,455 passengers already using the 23 locals leaving 86th St. If the number of trains were raised from that level to 33 trains, then there would be an average of 784 passengers per train for a leave load level of 71%. An additional 3945 passengers enter the local at 77th and 68th. This would bring the number of passengers on local trains arriving at 59th to 29793 or 902 per train for a load level of 82% up from the current 79%. If current travel patterns remained unchanged and an additional 3411 passengers entered the local at 59th, the total number of passengers would rise to 33204 or 1006 per train for a load factor of 92%, instead of the present 90%. It is more likely that patterns will change to equalize loading with the express which will have a leave load of less than 74%, instead of the present 109%. Even the TA grudgingly admits that they have a good chance of maintaing schedules, if the load level is kept below 85%. This plan comes reasonably close to that goal.
"The favored trip destination for Upper East Siders is the East Midtown area over Lower Manhattan by a 2:1 margin. (Table 9D-6). This means that 67% of these people can use the local to get to their destination. The remainder will have to make a cross platform change or downstairs change at either 59th, Grand Central, Union Sq or Brooklyn Bridge. Their number is is 7,511 or 15 per car over the entire AM peak period."
You forgot Bronx riders (21% of top 20 AM trips listed in the table (I do not include west midtown destinations). Of course, you bring up the Bronx when you want to discount Manhattanites' needs; now you ignore the Bronx because you want to isolate only those numbers to justify your own arguments. You also ignored deliberately the issue of what happens when commuters from Queens are offered a new southbound train (transitioning from 63rd St through the bellmouth onto Second Avenue). This false set of assumptions (remember those? :0) ) then sets up the restof your analysis - to go straight to the nearest recycling bin!
"Even the TA grudgingly admits that they have a good chance of maintaing schedules, if the load level is kept below 85%. This plan comes reasonably close to that goal."
The TA will grudgingly admit to anything that Governor Pataki wants them to grudgingly admit. If he wanted them to happily admit it they would do that too. Their views have to fit his budget priorities, not the other way around.
You forgot Bronx riders (21% of top 20 AM trips listed in the table (I do not include west midtown destinations
Did the Bronx riders get on the Lex before 125th St or are they entering at 86th St. Please be specific. If they entered the system in the Bronx, I've already counted them. If they are entered between the Bronx and 86th, I've also counted them. If they are entering at 86th St, I'm still counting them. How many times should I count the same people in order to create a demand on paper to exceed existing capacity?
The only Bronx residents that will be effected by making 86th a local stop would be those that are already in expresses who are getting off at 86th. These people would be forced to change to a local at 125th. This local will have a load of 20%, meaning that the person will be guaranteed two seats. I realize that this may prove a hardship to some, but I think they will survive.
You also ignored deliberately the issue of what happens when commuters from Queens are offered a new southbound train transitioning from 63rd St through the bellmouth onto Second Avenue).
Could you please give me a completion date, to within +/- 2 years? :-)
If one assumes that the destination patterns will not change, we know that of the 50,000 trip origins from Queens that use the Lex, less than 13,000 are headed downtown. The Lex has extra capacity south of Grand Central. They don't need more trains there; that's not where the crowds are or are going.
"Even the TA grudgingly admits that they have a good chance of maintaing schedules, if the load level is kept below 85%. This plan comes reasonably close to that goal."
This statement to this effect is contained in the planning report without my qualifying adjective.
The TA will grudgingly admit to anything that Governor Pataki wants them to grudgingly admit. If he wanted them to happily admit it they would do that too. Their views have to fit his budget priorities..
If you can't trust the MTA to remain honest on questions of technical feasibility, you might as well go back and re-evaluate all of their postulates. I suggest you review what other agencies do, I have.
"This statement to this effect is contained in the planning report without my qualifying adjective."
They didn't need you to qualify it. Planning reports are, by necessity, partly political, and you're not in that loop. But Pataki is.
They didn't need you to qualify it. Planning reports are, by necessity, partly political, and you're not in that loop. But Pataki is.
The statment in question from page 9D-15 is:
"In general, when the average peak hour v/c ratio exceeds 0.85, it is likely that some trains during that hour have leave loads greater than the guideline capacity."
How do you infer Pataki's influence in that statement?
"In general, when the average peak hour v/c ratio exceeds 0.85, it is likely that some trains during that hour have leave loads greater than the guideline capacity."
That's a great euphemism for acknowledging that passengers aren't going to be sitting down! And only the most naive wouldn't understand that "some" can mean anything (a few trains? Half the trains? Every train except for one?). Remember Bill Clinton (or Bill Gates) in front of a camera?
MTA, in general, does what it can given its mandates and its environment. That includes technical reporting. No, an individual collecting data is not thinking about Pataki looking over his shoulder. But the analyst who writes stuff for public consumption will tend not to state conclusions which appear contrary to the mandate. Pataki's mandate is that capital construction in NYC should be paid for only by NYC residents (patently unfair, since the benefits are felt as far as 100 miles away).
[Pataki's mandate is that capital construction in NYC should be paid for only by NYC residents (patently unfair, since the benefits are felt as far as 100 miles away).]
And since NYC's taxes go to finance capital projects elsewhere in the state.
[Clearly, closing the 86th St express stop cannot be done without simultaneously raising the number of locals by almost 50%. The locals currently leave 86th St with only a 53% load level compared to the express's 116%. The local's top load level comes between 59th and 51st Sts - 90%. There's more than enough additionl capacity, With only 21-23 peak hour trains on the local. ]
Still makes me uncomfortable. Maybe it's a prejudice of mine but I don't like eliminating useful services to force people into a pattern that's better for the operation of the system, and that 86 st express stop is very heavily used.
If they really can't get enough express trains through it seems to me they should lengthen the express stations & build the second ave subway, but hey, that's just me . . .
[If they really can't get enough express trains through it seems to me they should lengthen the express stations ]
And why not? IRT is already crippeled by the width of the cars.
Arti
Lengthening stations is not, in itself, a bad idea. You buy additional rolling stock and make 12-car trains. But when you add platform capacity you need to watch stairway capacity, elevator capacity, mezzanine capacity, etc. etc. And you need to do it for all stations a train serves. The LIRR may invite to walk forward several carlengths on a short stop but, as a safety issue, I don't like that idea on the subway.
Costs??
[Lengthening stations is not, in itself, a bad idea. You buy additional rolling stock and make 12-car trains. But when you add platform capacity you need to watch stairway capacity, elevator capacity, mezzanine capacity, etc. etc. And you need to do it for all stations a train serves. The LIRR may invite to walk forward several carlengths on a short stop but, as a safety issue, I don't like that idea on the subway.
Costs??]
I'm not sure what the costs are. I do know that when the Feds studied the Queens corridor capacity problem, they determined that lengthening the trains was the most economical solution (the Queens corridor is particularly silly that way since most of it was designed for 11 car 60' trains but the MTA doesn't run them anymore). And the original IRT stations were expanded to accomodate 10 car trains when I was a kid.
I don't see station access as a problem, because they wouldn't be handling any more people than they do now.
"I don't see station access as a problem, because they wouldn't be handling any more people than they do now."
Ridership has been growing dramatically over the past five years - so yes, stations will be handling more people. Additionally, note that the MTA has an ethical and legal obligation to improve station access to the handicapped, the elderly. So when they enlarge stations, ADA access (elevators, escalators, wider stairs with tactile stripping, braille signs etc. come into play.
[Ridership has been growing dramatically over the past five years - so yes, stations will be handling more people. Additionally, note that the MTA has an ethical and legal obligation to improve station access to the handicapped, the elderly. So when they enlarge stations, ADA access (elevators, escalators, wider stairs with tactile stripping, braille signs etc. come into play]
ADA access is certainly mandated, where physically possible, and adds to the cost of station renovations. Though what braille signs do for the blind is beyond me--how are the blind people supposed to find the signs?
Anyway, the stairs aren't the bottleneck in most cases--they slow progress to the platform, but only in spurts. And those wider stairs are in many cases dangerous--not enough room to get past them safely. The slippery bumps for blind people are dangerous too.
>>> Though what braille signs do for the blind is beyond me--how are the blind people supposed to find the signs? <<<
With a little planning, the signs would be placed in standardized locations within each station. i.e. always at a certain height and always xx feet to the right of entry turnstiles.
I agree that sometimes the ADA requirements are carried to excess, like braille instructions on drive up ATM's, which I have seen.
Tom
I agree that sometimes the ADA requirements are carried to excess, like braille instructions on drive up ATM's, which I have seen.
ATMs are fairly standardized; the braille is simply part of the basic package.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[With a little planning, the signs would be placed in standardized locations within each station. i.e. always at a certain height and always xx feet to the right of entry turnstiles.]
Seems to me the best system would be a local transmission loop and a little receiver carried by the blind person, like the systems used in museums but without headphones.
Anyway, I doubt that anyone is going to use the braille. Hell, in all my time on the subway, I've *never* seen a blind person using the braille: if they need info, they just ask someone!
>>> in all my time on the subway, I've *never* seen a blind person using the braille <<<
That's not really surprising. You do not see many sighted people reading official signs in the subways either. Given that the blind are such a small percentage of the people using the subway, and if a blind person has read the braille instructions once he probably will not go back to read them again, seeing a blind person on his first trip on a given subway line, traveling without a sighted person acting as a guide who could find the signs, since they are not standardized, would be pretty rare.
It's like saying there is no need for elevators to the stations because you never see wheelchair bound people on the platforms. Build it and they will come. Blind people who are not used to finding informative signs in braille are not going to look (or feel around) for them.
Tom
If they really can't get enough express trains through it seems to me they should lengthen the express stations
I'm trying to avoid any construction. It's expensive and long lead. There are other alternatives that does not make the 86th St Station a local stop but they involve construction.
"I'm trying to avoid any construction. It's expensive and long lead."
And your delays would make it even more expensive and long lead when something finally has to get done. Penny-wise and pound foolish.
[I'm trying to avoid any construction.]
Always the ideal. Though I don't think you could get away with that particular solution. It's much harder to take service away than it is not to provide it in the first place, and those rich East Siders can put the kabosh on just about anything.
But (forgive me, I've been out of the loop for a while) I thought the capacity of the Lex could be increased adequately just by running trains at historical levels? Enough for the short term, anyway.
"Always the ideal."
Never say always. Often it is ideal. Sometimes (as in this case), it's shortsighted and foolish.
"But (forgive me, I've been out of the loop for a while) I thought the capacity of the Lex could be increased adequately just by running trains at historical levels? Enough for the short term, anyway."
Thisis the crux of the debate...The public consensus is that running additional trains will not provide the service (both load reduction and better neighborhood service) they want.
[Thisis the crux of the debate...The public consensus is that running additional trains will not provide the service (both load reduction and better neighborhood service) they want.]
But we'd be talking about going from 26 to 32 TPH. That's quite a difference! It seems to me that if, at that point, service still wasn't sufficient it would make sense to lengthen the trains or put in moving block signals to increase the capacity. (I can think of other quick/fairly cheap solutions as well, such as using the underutilized Park Avenue tunnels for express service).
Note that I'm speaking only of the immediate capacity problems on the Lex--I certainly agree that we need the Second Avenue subway.
"According to study available on the MTA website during the peak AM hour: 29,583 passengers arrive at 125th St from the Bronx. They are fairly evenly distributed between the operating trains on the #4, #5 and #6 services. There are 21,978 passengers leaving 125th St on the expresses and 7,182 passengers leaving on the locals for a total of 29,160 passengers. It means that on net 125th St is a destination not a starting point."
I realize that I'm jumping in late here, but those figures do not allow one to determine whether or not 125 is a net destination or a net origin station. To do so, you would need to know how many of the 29,583 arriving downtown passengers left the station on northbound trains. Remember that 125 is the first possible transfer from the downtown 4/5 to the Bronx-bound 6 (and vice versa). If more than 423 people make this transfer, then the station would be a net origin station.
CG
I realize that I'm jumping in late here,...
This is a public forum and your 2 cents are as good as anyone's - jump in.
...but those figures do not allow one to determine whether or not 125 is a net destination or a net origin station. To do so, you would need to know how many of the 29,583 arriving downtown passengers left the station on northbound trains. Remember that 125 is the first possible transfer from the downtown 4/5 to the Bronx-bound 6 (and vice versa). If more than 423 people make this transfer, then the station would be a net origin station.
Your observation is clearly correct. You also neglected some other permutations, such as northbound local customers trying to catch an express or a local seat going downtown.
This is a question of semantics and scope. Nobody would be interested in the Lex service if the load levels were 74% and 31% for the express and local, respectively. The scope of the investigation is what happens further downtown. Within that context, passengers transferring to trains that are not downtown Lex trains have reached their downtown Lex Ave destination. There is a similar situation at Grand Central. Trains leaving Grand Central are less crowded than those arriving making it a net destination despite Metro North's efforts.
Comparing actual hourly turnstile counts for both entering and leaving customers would be required to determine what the net traffic flow is at 125th St. Those counts are not available to me and I don't know if they even exist. The best that can be done is to infer from the available data.
Trains leaving Grand Central are less crowded than those arriving making it a net destination despite Metro North's efforts.
Just wait until LIRR starts helping MNCRR supply the TA with pax at GCT.
[You're suggesting that the express tracks on the Lex are used most by Bronx commuters, and that a local system in Manhattan only would be sufficient. I happen to know that a lot of Harlem commuters appreciate being able to ride an express downtown on the Lex, so the question becomes, are commuters from the proposed 125 St and 110 St stations enough to justify four tracks?]
It seems to me that that depends on what you mean by justify. If you were to try to justify the subway system on a comparable basis, a lot of existing services serve far fewer people than a 125th Street express station, which would serve both Harlem residents and if in the right location commuters from the Bronx, would. But I think that's almost moot. By the time you get below 96th Street, you're in one of the densest population areas in not just the City but the world, and that in turn feeds the first and second largest business districts in the world. While I can't vouch for their integrity, the projections I've seen suggest that a two track second avenue line will be inadequate to serve the area in the realtively near future. If any location justifies a four track line, that's it. You could run the express from 96th on down, but that would mean ignoring the overcrowded Bronx lines and giving up a natural transfer to the Lex and Metro North at 125th Street. Even if they don't build 4 tracks now, they should build express stations with tunnel stubs at the obvious locations to allow transfer to a cross-platform express line in the future (the local tracks would run on the inside). It's not ideal, but it's better than building a line which will be inadequate from its inception and difficult to expand.
Wouldn't the expresses have to stop in virtually all stations in Upper East Side? All the stops would have extremely high population density.
Arti
[Wouldn't the expresses have to stop in virtually all stations in Upper East Side? All the stops would have extremely high population density.]
Not at all. 125th, 86th, 59th and 42nd would be fine, given a cross-platform transfer and frequent service. After all, it wouldn't be much of an express if it made all the local stops!
[Not at all. 125th, 86th, 59th and 42nd would be fine, given a cross-platform transfer and frequent service. After all, it wouldn't be much of an express if it made all the local stops! ]
Weren't we talking about the stubway? 125,106, 96, 86 and 72 and then away to BWay exp, which of them should be local?
Arti
"Weren't we talking about the stubway? 125,106, 96, 86 and 72 and then away to BWay exp, which of them should be local?"
The Stubway is a temporary segment until the full-length line is ready. So express and local platform design needs to be geared to the full-length line, not the Stubway.
[Weren't we talking about the stubway? 125,106, 96, 86 and 72 and then away to BWay exp, which of them should be local?]
I think we've gotten confused somewhere along the line. If we're talking about the two line stubway, I think all of them should be local stops, plus 116th and 77th rather than 72nd. Otherwise the line will be fairly useless.
I just think that they should build express stations at 125th and 86th, with truncated express tubes that just run a bit beyond the station. That way the line could be upgraded in the future to a four track express with a cross-platform transfer.
"I think we've gotten confused somewhere along the line. If we're talking about the two line stubway, I think all of them should be local stops, plus 116th and 77th rather than 72nd. Otherwise the line will be fairly useless."
Agreed. But I am not talking about merely a Stubway, and legislators have made clear that the Capital Plan is not posing it that way, either. Pataki did not favor it, but he signed on the deal.
[I think all of them should be local stops, plus 116th and 77th rather than 72nd]
125,106, 96, 86 and 72 is what MTA has a contract out for.
Arti
125,106, 96, 86 and 72 is what MTA has a contract out for.
Which leaves some people out in the cold. They need a stop at 116th, and 72nd is too far from 86th--that stretch has one of the highest population densities in the world.
72-86 is 14 blocks, somewhat longer than most intervals (6-10 blocks) in the city. You have a valid point.
Since most of the cost of building a subway line is at the stations, can we assume this is why possible stations were omitted.\
Please note that a station can be added later (at higher cost of course). WMATA is adding the New York Av station to its Red Line. It would have been cheaper to include it when the Red Line was first built, but perhaps they didn't foresee demand for it.
[Since most of the cost of building a subway line is at the stations, can we assume this is why possible stations were omitted.]
My impression (and I could be wrong) is that they were ommitted because the original 70's 2nd Avenue subway was supposed to be an *express* line that could later be upgraded by adding a local. But local residents complained that there weren't enough stops, so they were gradually added.
Also, there's a wrinkle to adding stations besides the cost. If they deep bore and rise up to meet the cut and cover stations, the tunnels will be lower down and possibly on a grade. Anyway, I've learned over the years that if you don't do it up front, it rarely gets done at all.
Having lived on Connecticut Ave. in Washington when they were digging out the Red Line up to Shady Grove, I can say that if the MTA uses the same deep bore method they used on the Metro, you'll still have to deal with those damned wooden planks on Second Ave. around the station sites.
There were wooden planks above and near the Tenleytown (Wisconsin Ave.), Van Ness Street, Clevland Park and Woodley Park stations, in order to facilitate movement of equipment down to the tunnels and with the construction of the stations themselves. People and businesses located between the stops did all right, but those right at where the stations were going in had to endure several years of wooden streets and wooden sidewalks.
Depending on how close together the Second Ave. stations would be, the MTA might be able to disrupt things only around every other station, but there's no way they can build anything underground without inconvienencing someone along the way.
[Depending on how close together the Second Ave. stations would be, the MTA might be able to disrupt things only around every other station, but there's no way they can build anything underground without inconvienencing someone along the way.]
As I understand it, the stations (about 1/2 mile apart) are going to be built cut-and-cover anyway. Only the tunnels between the stations will be bored.
Sound like they plan to have a shallow mezzanine one to two levels above the tracks if they're going for cut-and-cover at the stations, with escalators and/or elevators to the platform, since the tracks themselves will remain fairly level. The Red Line staions on WMATA have long escalators from the street to the deep mezzanines where the fare control area is. But the above groud work during construction looked like a standard cut-and-cover job, so the Second Ave. project will probably mimic that.
[Sound like they plan to have a shallow mezzanine one to two levels above the tracks if they're going for cut-and-cover at the stations, with escalators and/or elevators to the platform, since the tracks themselves will remain fairly level. The Red Line staions on WMATA have long escalators from the street to the deep mezzanines where the fare control area is. But the above groud work during construction looked like a standard cut-and-cover job, so the Second Ave. project will probably mimic that.]
Hope not. One of the advantages of cut and cover & the reason it was chosen for the original IRT is that it's easier and faster to enter and exit the stations, and that time is effectively part of the commute . . .
I read that the tracks would rise to meet the stations, don't know how much or if that's true.
Seems like that would only make sense if the original 1970 plan for stations spaced a mile or more apart was retained. Going up-and-down between stations eight- to 10-blocks apart would create something of a roller coaster effect for the trains, along with putting more strain long term on the motors, especailly if you were talking about a rise of two or more levels (25 feet and above) between the stations and the tunnels in-between.
[Seems like that would only make sense if the original 1970 plan for stations spaced a mile or more apart was retained.]
Even then I don't like it. Among other things, it would make the addition of new stations difficult.
True enough. However, at least one station not currently included (116th St)could be added in future. As to others, rider demand over time will play a role...
Don't see any need for that station, have you been in that area? I happened to take M98 the other day, blocks of boarded up buildings on 3rd Avenue, virtually nobody on the streets, and noone waiting for the bus.
Arti
Part of the motivation for that station (which was specifically requested by community groups) was as a stimulus for renovation. They are hoping that a new 116th St station there will do for the area what Jamaica-Van Wyck, Sutphin-Archer and Parsons-Archer did for downtown Jamaica. The latter is a hard act to follow, since a lot of groups were involved in that (the transit line was the trigger, not the whole thing, obviously). But a station, esp. if linked to street and lighting improvements, would tend to attract "redevelopers." As far as how the place looks now, well "125th St it ain't" - but I've seen worse.
[True enough. However, at least one station not currently included (116th St)could be added in future. As to others, rider demand over time will play a role...]
The other problem I have is with the configuration of the stations further down -- it seems to me that they should run 77th-66th-(59th) Street (or 79th-72nd-66th-(59th) Street), given that the area from 86th-72nd has such an extraordinarily high population density.
I don't like it, either -- based on Manhattan's population density, the station splits should be between eight and 15 blocks apart, primarily on the major cross streets -- like 125, 116, 106, 96 and 86 for the upper portion of the line, and then it gets a little trickier between 86th and 42nd. But the closer together the stations are the more level the track will have to be, which means the MTA will have to decide between deep bore or cut-and-cover for the Second Ave. construction.
That is why I favor a large arched tunnel which can contain more than one track - additional tracks can be added at low cost. However, I do understand why MTA wants to utilize existing tunnels and a two-track design. Even a two-track subway is better than none at all - it will give the East Side six tracks of service total, up from four.
[it will give the East Side six tracks of service total, up from four. ]
The capacity increase is more than 50% as B division trains are longer and wider.
Arti
"The capacity increase is more than 50% as B division trains are longer and wider."
Yes, thank you for correcting me on that.
[Even a two-track subway is better than none at all - it will give the East Side six tracks of service total, up from four.]
I agree. They should just build the two track line with cross-platform express service in mind.
But given the region's resources, it's sad and silly that they can't/won't build a real four track line at the start. It's in New York State's interest to *attract* businesses and middle/upper class residents, but we seem to want to drive them away by providing grossly inadequate transportation services and spending our ridiculous taxes on bloat and pork . . .
If you ran the G to Continental, which I prefer, would you have three locals, the G, V and R, using the same track? Is there a precedent for that?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Would 3 expresses on the same track be OK? How about the Brighton Exp, West End Exp and Sea Beach Express all operating via the Bridge to Times Sq or 57th St?
The author of this article is nuts:
1. There isn't enough cars to maintain G service beyond Court Sq.
2. It's not needed by enough people to justify it
3. Running the Queens Blvd. local tracks at 100% capacity is suicide if the express tracks ever become blocked. The E and F are more important and some capacity should remain to route some onto the local tracks to bypass such problems.
With all due respect to G riders, shut up already. Transfer at Court Square. It won't kill you.
Running the Queens Blvd. local tracks at 100% capacity is suicide if the express tracks ever become blocked. The E and F are more important and some capacity should remain to route some onto the local tracks to bypass such problems.
Track capacity is 40 tph not 30 tph. Overall route capacity is determined by the terminal configuration. There is still plenty of reroute capacity left.
With all due respect to G riders, shut up already. Transfer at Court Square. It won't kill you.
That certainly sounds like the TA's attitude towards its customers.
"Overall route capacity is determined by the terminal configuration. There is still plenty of reroute capacity left."
This is where the possibility of connecting 63rd St to a non-stop single track along the LIRR to Union Tpke would make a difference. That way, if anything goes wrong in the peak direction, Eastern Queens riders could just walk right by it. In terms of the Queens Blvd riders between Queens Plz and Forest Hills, they could simply take the non-peak direction train to whichever is relevant, Union Tpke or somewhere along 63rd St, and make a transfer to the "super express." In my mind, I am not favoring any particular Manhattan or Brooklyn line here, I'm just saying a simple fact. Queens Blvd ridership has risen to the point where if some risks aren't taken i.e. actually running 30 or more tph on a track, then the line needs more trackage, and seeing as how the TA doesn't want to run the G with the V, they are showing that they don't trust the capability of the tracks which is a problem.
"That certainly sounds like the TA's attitude towards its customers."
The only problem with that statement (besides being flippant and impulsive) is that there is no monolithic customer group. The TA's customers speak with many voices, favoring opposing schemes, and the TA will not please everyone no matter what it does.
This does not mean I like the way the TA conducts business all the time. It could use some improving.
Let's not confuse the subway system with a profit-minded business venture. It's a public service. So in this case, the customer doesn't always have to be right. There's no justification for keeping G trains past Court Sq and the cars don't exist to maintain the service. Why burden the system with all the necessary operation costs and headaches for a service meaningless to most Queens IND riders?
I'm often impressed with your statistics, but if track capacity is 40 TPH, then why aren't 40 TPH run on this overused line? If it was feasible, it would be done. But it isn't. Answer that one ...
Get off at Court Sq. and walk your fat @ss to the E/V at 23rd. St. In a more diplomatic way, the MTA needs to drill this message into G line riders.
"I'm often impressed with your statistics"
I'm not. Even Steve's misuse of statistics has not been very competent.
"So in this case, the customer doesn't always have to be right."
Well, the customer does have to be right. What is important is identifying what most customers want, since MTA's ridership is not monolithic in opinion. Ask 10 subway riders about which way a subway line should go, and you'll get 15 answers.
"Get off at Court Sq. and walk your fat @ss to the E/V at 23rd. St. In a more diplomatic way, the MTA needs to drill this message into G line riders."
Regardless of how I feel about the proposed G cutback, I also feel it's wrong to trivialize the real concerns that Greenpoint residents brought up at the public hearing and here on this website. MTA may not be able to accommodate them on keeping their line intact, but it is very, very important to continue to make their commute as convenient as possible given the circumstances. Your message goes wide of the mark, I'm afraid.
I'm often impressed with your statistics, but if track capacity is 40 TPH, then why aren't 40 TPH run on this overused line? If it was
feasible, it would be done. But it isn't. Answer that one ...
It's simple, they don't have the cars. Allowing for differences in car lengths, they are short about 400 cars from the level of the late 1960's. The fleet used to have 6600 cars; it's down to 5800.
"It's simple, they don't have the cars. Allowing for differences in car lengths, they are short about 400 cars from the level of the late 1960's. The fleet used to have 6600 cars; it's down to 5800."
Yes, absolutely correct. Perhaps cars were prematurely retired. In the early-1980's the maintenance shops were so disorganized it's a wonder they could keep anything running. One of the reforms successfully undertaken was the overhaul of the maintenance system so that worn-out parts didn't comigle with new ones. As I recall, the Times did a whole Sunday feature on it.
It's pointless to cry over it now. The subway fleet is better maintained than in the past; now it's time to buy rolling stock. I don't put it ahead of certain new subway routes, but rather equal. In fact, new rolling stock should be part of a new route's budget.
The subway fleet is better maintained than in the past;
That depends on the measure that is used. The probablility of riding a train that will breakdown while in service has been reduced. However, the percentage of available cars has declined.
now it's time to buy rolling stock.
The reason for reduced availability is the use of linkbars and married cars. The new fleet perpetuates this. It means that many more cars are required to perform the same function. The 5-unit R142's are replacing married pairs. The problem is they are replacing cars on a one-to-one basis. This policy will effectively leave them an additional 250 cars short, even with the supplementary order.
In fact, new rolling stock should be part of a new route's budget.
Vehicle costs average between 8% and 18% of total new line costs, according to a 1991 study commissioned by the FTA, Office of
Technical Assistance and Safety. But then again should a 1991 study be considered relevant? :-)
"The reason for reduced availability is the use of linkbars and married cars. The new fleet perpetuates this. It means that many more cars are required to perform the same function. The 5-unit R142's are replacing married pairs. The problem is they are replacing cars on a one-to-one basis. This policy will effectively leave them an additional 250 cars short, even with the supplementary order."
I personally have not looked closely at the R-142, thugh I have seen them pass by on simulated stops.
Does every R-142 come with full cab controls? The reason I ask: If I recall correctly, the R-46 is an A-B-B-A type of arrangement too. That offers the disadvantage that not every car is completely independent, but then not every car must be equipped with a full cab and controls. Would not the R-46 order have been more expensive if every car had to have full controls installed?
Would not the R-46 order have been more expensive if every car had to have full controls installed?
Significantly so, not to mention capable of carrying fewer passengers. The debate about linked cars vs. singles has been beaten to death before, so I'll simply summarize the conclusion as I see it: while in theory a single failure in a linked unit will sideline more cars than must be sidelined with singles, in practice there will be little difference, since the costs of making and breaking trains is high. Additionally, with fewer and more robust components the rate of failure is lower, and we end up with greater availability rather than less.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In other words, MTA's reasoning is not nearly as incompetent as Steve Baumann makes it out to be...
Precisely. Train Dude explained it quite well before but Steve prefers to deal in theoreticals on this one - and in theory he's right, it's just that theory and practice don't (won't, and shouldn't) come together here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Additionally, with fewer and more robust components the rate of failure is lower, and we end up with greater availability rather than less.
How much more reliable must the individual components be in order to have more cars available? Is this a realistic condition in the practical world?
Let's answer the first question.
Let q1 be the probability for a failure in a single unlinked car and let qN be the probability for a failure in a single car in a series of N cars linked together. What is the availability for N linked cars vs. N unlinked cars?
The availability for N linked cars is:
N(1-qN)N
The availability for N unlinked cars is:
N(1-q1)
For the linked cars to be have greater availability the following must hold:
N(1-qN)N > N(1-q1) which reduces to
(1-qN)N > (1-q1) or
(1 - NqN + ½N(N-1)qN2 -... > (1-q1)
remembering that q << 1, we get
1 - NqN > 1 - q1 or
qN < q1/N
In other words, the failure rate for linked cars and components must be less than one Nth the failure rate for single unit redundant cars
and components.
This analysis is not my creation. It is presented in the first week in any course on reliablilty. The key to availability is redundancy. These results are universal and have been applied to such diverse fields as maintenance, diversity signal transmission and portfolio management. Only the TA appears to believe that improved availability can be achieved by placing all one's eggs in one basket.
Now for the second question. That magnitude of improved reliablilty has not yet been demonstrated by the NYCT. It also means that the new R142's which come in 5-car units must have less than 0.4 times the failure rate of the married pairs they are replacing in order to avoid additional shortages. And that this improved reliablilty must continue as the fleet ages. Not likely, in my opinion.
I'm not going to argue with your math. In fact, you present it well (where the hell were you when I needed a competent instructor in freshman calculus? Since that was 1979, I forgive you :0))
But you're (as usual) only looking at one specific part of the problem, the part that supports your viewpoint. As has been pointed out, fully operable individual cars are more expensive and seat fewer people than the linked arrangement described. Now, we can spend a lot more money up front and get a more flexible system (but need more cars because each holds fewer people), or we can spend less up front and try to maintain what we get a little better. Politics (read: Bombardier) intrudes into some of that - can't be helped.
Hey, wait a minute. Spending more up front to increase the chances of something working out - you support that! But that's what building the Second Av subway is all about. Do I detect a little hypocrisy here from you, Steve?
As has been pointed out, fully operable individual cars are more expensive
They have a higher purchase price. Equipment that is supposed to last 35+ years has more costs associated with it than purchase price. The first question is for equal service levels whether or not the decreased costs derived from increased availability and operational flexibility will compensate for the higher initial cost and higher incremental running cost (due to increased weight and parts ) over the car's useful life. If the first question favors single units then the next question is whether or not one can afford not to be pennywise and pound foolish at purchase time.
seat fewer people
The LV's seated 48 passengers whether powered or trailers. The R142's will seat 40 passengers in cars without cabs and 34 passengers with seats with cabs. For a 5 car unit the comparison is: 240 seated passengers for the LV's and 188 for the R142's. Both cars have the same exterior dimensions. Even derating the LV's capacity for a 10% flab factor (people have grown wider in the last hundred years) it's still no contest. It's all in the design and the LV's were probably ADA compliant - the aisle and doors were wide enough.
..(but need more cars because each holds fewer people)...
Logician Bertrand Russell showed that any hypothesis could be proven from a single false assumption. This is but one of several that your arguments require. :-)
we can spend less up front and try to maintain what we get a little better...
That argument was used for not using stainless steel at the time the R15's were purchased. The only time that improved maintenance argument ever worked in NYC and most anywhere else is when maintenance was a separate, unregulated profit center within a regulated utility like the BMT and IRT.
[Get off at Court Sq. and walk your fat @ss to the E/V at 23rd. St. In a more diplomatic way, the MTA needs to drill this message into G line riders. ]
Now that's what you call customer service!
(The Daily News has joined the voices in the argument to keep the G its full length. They claim that by "doing the math" the QB line will be able to handle the increase in traffic. Does this actual add up?)
I expect the MTA is unwilling to spare the cars and crews that will be carrying few passengers. The problem here isn't that it is difficult to get from Brooklyn to Forest Hills. The problem is that G riders already require a transfer to get to Manhattan, and will now have a worse transfer. They'll be trying to get on F and V trains that are already full, instead of having the option of a less-crowded R local. So you wait 10 minutes, even at rush hour, transfer to a packed train if you can, then transfer again in Manhattan to get to work.
The solution to that one requires money. At least a new station under Queens Boulevard, allowing an additional transfer to the R. At best a G connection to the 63rd Street tunnel, and to Jay Street, so the G could run in a loop as an additional 6th Avenue local. Or perhaps a new subway to Astoria, with the G as a local and the N as an express direct to the airport.
"I expect the MTA is unwilling to spare the cars and crews that will be carrying few passengers. The problem here isn't that it is difficult to get from Brooklyn to Forest Hills. The problem is that G riders already require a transfer to get to Manhattan, and will now have a worse transfer. They'll be trying to get on F and V trains that are already full, instead of having the option of a less-crowded R local. So you wait 10 minutes, even at rush hour, transfer to a packed train if you can, then transfer again in Manhattan to get to work."
That's a real concern. We'll see how it actually works out.
"The solution to that one requires money. At least a new station under Queens Boulevard, allowing an additional transfer to the R. At best a G connection to the 63rd Street tunnel, and to Jay Street, so the G could run in a loop as an additional 6th Avenue local. Or perhaps a new subway to Astoria, with the G as a local and the N as an express direct to the airport."
So you like my idea for bringing the G via a ramp into a new ADA-compliant lower level at Queens Plaza?
I like your suggestions for a new Astoria subway. The Airport train will have to be other than the N in order to get the City Council to approve it, though.
Making it possible for the G to run into a lower level station at Queens Plaza would be extremely difficult and expensive from an engineering standpoint since the G tracks would have to pass under the north bound R track which in turn passes under the E & F tracks that come up the ramp from 23 St-Ely. The downgrade on the G would have to start before Court Square, followed by a steep upgrade to arrive at Queens Plaza on a lower level platform.
Besides, and I don't know if it's already been mentioned here, G riders can transfer to the L at Metropolitan Ave, which connects with every subway in Manhattan.
Thank you for that information. Yes, it would be an engineering challenge. I had speculated at one time that it might be $100 million to do that but I may be underestimating the actual cost.
The L train transfer - that certainly should be useful for some. I've not used it myself. Does anyone here know what the transfer between G and L looks like? Does it involve multiple stairs? Long passageways? Can it be made ADA-compliant without having to completely rebuild both stations?
I haven't seen it in a while, but I think it's mostly a horizontal passageway about 300 feet long from the G Metropolitan Ave station to the Lorimer St station on the L (not too many stairs).
Sounds like ADA revisions shouldn't pose much of a problem, then.
You've still got an up to 10 minute wait for the G, followed by a three minute walk and up to 4 minute wait for the L, followed by a 2-5 minute wait for another connecting train in Manhattan. If you are unlucky, it can take 20 minutes just waiting for trains. And that's at rush hour.
A wider variety of transfers could assure that for most people, only one (and thus only two waits) is required.
Agreed. I was only referring to the physial ease of creating ADA-access, not to its effect on the convenience of transferring in general.
I see accelerated ADA-access as a carrot which can be offered to help compensate riders for a change in service patterns not favorable to the station affected, or burdening that station. It only works as a carrot because NYC's system is so old. If a change in service happened on a newer system built entirely to ADA specs then we'd have to find other carrots.
There are people who HAVE to take buses, this "G" problem for the is kinda ?????
Arti
Ron, your notion that ADA compliance can be used as "compensation" for lost service relies on the unstated and questionable assumption that most (or at least substantial numbers of) subway riders care about ADA compliance. If all subway construction work were paid for exclusively with unlimited amounts of OPM, I am sure that 98% would favor bringing the whole system into ADA compliance by tomorrow morning. However, since every dime spent on ADA compliance is one less dime spent on other things, many of which are more strongly desired by a lot more people, I doubt that many would regard ADA compliance work as a carrot. Spinach, more likely.
Not to beat a dead horse, it would be a lot less expensive to do the relatively small amount of work that would be needed to turn the connector to the IND 2nd system at Roosevelt Avenue into tail tracks and turn the G there.
Not to beat a dead horse, it would be a lot less expensive to do the relatively small amount of work that would be needed to turn the connector to the IND 2nd system at Roosevelt Avenue into tail tracks and turn the G there.
Except that it tails the wrong direction...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't think so. Remember, the connections were designed with the same (wrong headed) idea as the connections to the Transit Museum (ne Court Street Station), that some trains approaching the City would reach the promised land while others ended up in a terminal in an outer borough.
I never said I would use the unused Roosevelt Avenue station. The closed (i.e. end of the line) end of the unused station is the West (closest to Manhattan) end. Therefore, the unused station itself is of no use in my proposal. What I proposed was to use the tunnel connections from the Queens Blvd line into the Second System tunnel. Those tunnel connections join the Second System tunnel just past the open Easterly end of the unused station. The big question is how far the Second System tunnel was dug past the Easterly end of the station shell. You would need enough tunnel to allow a G train to fit between the end of the tunnel and the necessary cross-over, which would in turn have to be east of the point where the connections to the Queens Blvd line diverged from the entry into the unused station.
I posted this earlier today in the NYC transit newsgroup on the G line -- have the MTA dig out space for a third track on the straightaway between 46th Street and Northern Blvd. on the R/V line, use the middle track as a relay/lay-up track and turn the G there.
Admittedly, 46th St. and Broadway in Queens is not a real logical place to put a terminal, but then, neither is Smith-9th Street. The reason why it would make sense is the local tracks are next to each other in that section and away from the E/F tracks, which would make construction of a relay track easier and cause less delays overall, and by doing that G riders would have access to Queens Plaza without having to make that 150-yard treck from Court Square to 23rd-Ely.
The G would have to share trackage with the R and V between 36th St. and 46th Street, but the limited number of G trains means there would be fewer trains per hour on that stretch of track than there is right now with the B/D/Q sharing trackage between DeKalb and Rockefeller Center. And the limited G schedule means if trains are turned between 46th St. and Northern Blvd., they could be held on the lay-up track to allow a Manhattan-bound R or V to pass without worrying about another G coming into the station right behind the first one.
Extending the G from Court Square to 46th St. would probably require one additional train during non-rush hours and two during the AM and PM rush. It's not a perfect solution, but it would help out the G riders without clogging up the relay tracks at Continental Ave. or requiring so many extra trains if the G continued to run all the way out to Forest Hills.
"Ron, your notion that ADA compliance can be used as "compensation" for lost service relies on the unstated and questionable assumption that most (or at least substantial numbers of) subway riders care about ADA compliance. If all subway construction work were paid for exclusively with unlimited amounts of OPM, I am sure that 98% would favor bringing the whole system into ADA compliance by tomorrow morning. However, since every dime spent on ADA compliance is one less dime spent on other things, many of which are more strongly desired by a lot more people, I doubt that many would regard ADA compliance work as a carrot. Spinach, more likely."
OK, I accept your skepticism. If there are other ways to compensate G riders which they like better, let's do that. How are you going to connect to that unused Roosevelt Av station - you still need tracks which will not occupy existing Queens Plaza lines.
How are you going to connect to that unused Roosevelt Av station - you still need tracks which will not occupy existing Queens Plaza lines.
Let me address the 2nd part first: As I understood it, the biggest problem with turning the G at QP was that doing so blocked all four tracks because the cross-over is at grade. The greater objection to running the G to Continental was that the longer run requires more cars than the TA has available. If the line can really handle 40 TPH (as advertised in other posts in this thread), there is sufficient capacity to run the G on the existing local tracks as far as Roosevelt. Since it's only half the distance from QP to Roosevelt Avenue (compared to QP to Continental), you would need only half as many additional cars. Moreover, the part of the line stretched to capacity would be only half as long. Thus, the risk of congestion is somewhat lessened as compared to running the G to Continental.
As for reaching the unused Roosevelt Avenue station, I never said I would. The closed (i.e. end of the line) end of the unused station is the West (closest to Manhattan) end. Therefore, the unused station itself is of no use in my proposal. What I proposed was to use the tunnel connections from the Queens Blvd line into the Second System tunnel. Those tunnel connections join the Second System tunnel just past the open Easterly end of the unused station. The big question is how far the Second System tunnel was dug past the Easterly end of the station shell. You would need enough tunnel to allow a G train to fit between the end of the tunnel and the necessary cross-over, which would in turn have to be east of the point where the connections to the Queens Blvd line diverged from the entry into the unused station. (Remember, the connections were designed with the same (wrong headed) idea as the connections to the Transit Museum (ne Court Street Station), that some trains approaching the City would reach the promised land while others ended up in a terminal in an outer borough.
The big question is how far the Second System tunnel was dug past the Easterly end of the station shell.
A bit over one train length, and curving away from the existing line. They don't connect at all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So, if I undrstand correctly;
A "G" train on the local switches to the unused Rockaway line. It then connects to the line leaving the Unused upper terminal station (eastbound) and goes as far as posible to clear the switch. It then stops and reverses direction into the Unused terminal(heading west) and stops. It then reverses direction (heading east again) going over the diamond to the westbound tracks and continues as far as necessary to clear the switch for the west bound ramp, down to the local tracks to Fat City.
Main line station heading east.
East,switch , switch stop.
west ,straight stop.
east , switch,switch stop.
west, straight, switch , main line station heading west.
Didn't a group tour that facility about a year orless ago.
If there is enough room, and four unused tunnels to have track laid, then by all means use this asset.
It would also provide storage space, out of the weather and off the express tracks!
WIN! WIN! WIN!
Just now you are short of cars. Place the track and extend service when additional cars become available instead of SCRAPPING Slants or other 60ft cars.
avid
Why not have a 6th ave local loop. The only problem is to install
switch tracks after hoyt street going into manhattan and before hoyt
coming from manhattan. The 6th ave local tracks can handle it because there are three expresses on the 6th ave express and that is doing fine. I know there are grade inclines at hoyt but from what I see they might not pose a threat.
Any other suggestions?
[The only problem is to install
switch tracks after hoyt street going into manhattan and before hoyt
coming from manhattan.]
Where would you terminate it?
Arti
[The only problem is to install switch tracks after hoyt street going into manhattan and before hoyt coming from manhattan.]
You'd also have to connect the G to the 63rd Street tunnel (or the 53rd St tunnel if more QB lines are diverted through 63rd). That means big bucks.
(Where would you terminate it?)
You wouldn't. You'd change shifts at Hoyt-Schemerhorn, with one crew jumping off and one jumping on. When a train was to be removed from service, a crew could express it to the Jamaica or Coney Island Yard (assuming the link to the southbound Culver is maintained even as a link to the northbound Culver is installed).
The G loop is part of my bias against subways on suspension bridges, borne of of 20 years of bitter experience. By the next time metal fatigue and cracking require a complete rebuild, I want an alternative. A G loop and L would partially offset the loss of the J/Z/M over the Willie B, with superior service. Other investments would be required as well -- perhaps hooking the Eastern half of the J/Z to the L, for example, and running all the trains through there.
[You wouldn't. You'd change shifts at Hoyt-Schemerhorn, with one crew jumping off and one jumping on. ]
Don't get it, please elaborate. Round robin would be OK, but withouth "63rd St" connection WHERE is it?
Arti
(Or perhaps a new subway to Astoria, with the G as a local and the N as an express direct to the airport. )
Question: what street does the R line run on when connecting from the 60th street tunnel to Queens plaza? (it runs south and loops around north to the station, if I'm not mistaken - likely sending it below 21st. or 23rd. in LIC)...
Here's what I'm thinking: swing the G line north along 21st. in LIC and connect it to 60th street tube - thus eliminating transfers for G line riders... extend the the line up 21st. in astoria, turn east at con ed and into LaGuardia... connect the 63st. tunnel to it too, just for poops and giggles.
The result would be better service for brooklyn, queens, and access to LaGuardia, probably spurring quite a bit of development along the queens/brooklyn waterfront in the process.
(no, it'd never happen, but...)
I like your idea. And never say never.
Why don't you write up this idea and send it to Peter Vallone, and see what he says? Underground subway service which enhances access in East Elmhurst and Astoria would be something he and other pols could support.
That's a thought. 21st is largely industrial/commercial and hopefully wouldn't bring out the NIMBYs in force.
Question: what street does the R line run on when connecting from the 60th street tunnel to Queens plaza? (it runs south and loops around north to the station, if I'm not mistaken - likely sending it below 21st. or 23rd. in LIC)...
Right; west to east, it runs under Queens Plaza, 22 St, 42 Rd, then Jackson Ave to the station, I believe.
I expect the MTA is unwilling to spare the cars and crews that will be carrying few passengers.
Cars and crews translate into money, which is what I assume the the MTA wasn't willing to spend for a "few" passengers. You are proposing new stations and track connections which will cost even more money.
Sounds like TA logic, you're fitting in well. :-)
The article from NY1.COM is here
So that explains the horrible smell in the Steinway tubes.
Lately it's been so bad I stay away from the front window while
going through. The smell gives me a headache and gives me nausea.
Is it #2, #4 , or #6 heating oil. #2 would be the lightest and should have a red color. That would be typical home heating oil.
The heaveier oils #4 and #6 are thicker and darker in color. To some it would appear to be crude, but it not.
Some where, someone has lost 5,000 gals. If its on the Manhattan side, which tube is getting it? There is a ruptured tank above the tube and it may have taken a long time to finally trickle to the tube.
The TA should start knocking on doors and asking whos oil bill has gotten a lot higher. Fuel handelers are warned about the Cancer threat of prolonged exposier from Petroleum Products.
avid
According to some sources it is #6 heating oil.
Peace,
ANDEE
Gotcha, read your earlier post.
Thanks
avid
It depends on the rate of the leak and what the usage is. 5000 gallons over the winter for someone who may use 100,000 gallons may not be that noticeable.
Perhaps Texaco or someone could somehow build a pumping derrick and recapture this oil, and share the profits with the MTA. Unless of course, this is merely salad oil, baby oil, olive oil, used motor oil, etc. -Peace, I'm out, Thomas:)
With the improved technology in "horrizontal drilling" an oil company could set up shop on the mezzannine platform area of the Third Ave. entrance (at the bottom of the escalators) and drill sideways to where the deposit of oil is, and if they're lucky, they might find deposits of natural gas as well (Hey, they got sewers in the area, don't they?) The MTA could then use their oil royalty payments to help towards funding of the new Second Ave. subway...
Who needs horizontal drilling when you can build a DIAGONAL drilling company, build a sun blocker, try to steal candy from a baby and get shot by that same baby.
Yeah, but I don't think the federal government allows any of the oil companies that do horrizontal drilling to own a nuclear plant...
Yeah man, only in NYC can you see a baby getting STOLE from and then see that same baby CAP that same thief!!! Ya Gotta Luv It!!!-Thomas:)
#6 looks like tar. And yes, someone is going to get a big bill.
This one is gonna be hard case for the subway detectives. :-0
When a train is laid up for the night, is the train completely shut down, or are some systems kept running? If parts of the train are kept running, what is kept on and why?
When a train is laid up at night, only the HVAC and the car body lights are turned off. In a few areas near residences, the air compressors are also cut out and additional handbrakes are applied because without the compressors, air cannot generate into the braking system and what air is left in the cylinders will bleed off within 90 minutes, thereby rendering the train without air brakes.
During cold weather plans, the train is left fully charged as well.
why when laying up in tunnels, ( I see it on N&R south or Canal) do they keep all door open on both sides?
All end doors on all equipment are supposed to be locked whenever they are laid up in a tunnel (doesn't apply in Yards). But usually they remain unlocked anyway.
That reminds me of something else. I've seen MARTA trains laid up with all the passenger doors on both sides open. Have heard of this practice, and what is it for?
If you see a train with all of it's doors open that means that it's getting prepped for service. The T/O (or Road Car Inspector) is walking through the train making sure that all the doors work as designed.
And here I thought it was merely for de-stinkification. :)
It could also be evidence of a car cleaner equipped with a broom!
Actually sometimes it's exactly for that purpose as well, but only in the Yards and it doesn't happen frequently.
Heh. Wouldn't want stinky tunnels ... and nothing says loving like a snow-filled train at 4:30am at Coney with that lovely wet snow that CAKES on the car floors. :)
So train motors can be left on the whole time between matienence periods?
Yes they are.
Does this mean that handles are left in the train?. If so how many handle does a typical T/O have and what safety measures exist to prevent some &*&*(&* person from trying to operate one. I know they wouldn't be able to get past the next homeball. But......
Not to worry, it's possible to do what is called a "topside charge" wherein the handle is turned upside down to move the brakepipe valve to the charge position and then the handle is removed. You still need a reverser and a handle to "go" assuming you don't get tripped.
Don't want to say much more than that since I *know* that trains can be stolen ... for a little while. The old Groucho comment applies here, "I took a train once but they made me put it back." :)
Ok you Metrocard Maniacs, jot this down on your calendar:
The Metrocard Collector Show
Saturday, March 3rd 2001 will be held at
Soldiers and Sailors Club
283 Lexington Ave. between 36th and 37th Sts.
New York. NY
$2.00 admission at door
Imformation # (212) 563-5889
Website www.telecardtimes.com
Hello all. Does anyone know anthing more about the G line cutback. I went to the LIC public Meeting and we also had a town hall meeting with the MTA in Greenpoint opposing the G line cutback. Does anyone know if the MTA is now rethinking the 63rd street tunnel service layout or are they just going to plough ahead with its plane and not care what the citizens say about it in the neighborhoods it effects.
thanx
"Does anyone know if the MTA is now rethinking the 63rd street tunnel service layout or are they just going to plough ahead with its plane and not care what the citizens say about it in the neighborhoods it effects."
The final plan has not yet been decided on. I think it's unfair to say the MTA doesn't care what citizens think. Remember that this plan affects Manhattan and Queens as well as Brooklyn, and while Greenpoint riders have generally been able to get seats going to where they want, Queens Blvd riders have been treated to either a cattle drive or a sardine canning experience, depending on which setting you dislike the most.
MTA built the Connector because there's a huge demand for it, and they need to balance a lot of needs when they put a plan together. There are a number of things they could do, and if you have some good ideas please speak up.
But try not to throw flippant and careless remarks around like that - it's really not fair, for one, and for another, it won't help your cause much.
I spoke at the hearing in favor of the current plan, but I think I'm open-minded enough to accept a plan where G service is continued to Forest Hills on a limited basis, ensuring that the benefits of V service are not negated. I'm thinking of writing a query to Douglas Sussman at MTA on the subject.
The address: Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director
MTA Govt. and Community Relations
347 Madison Avenue
NY NY 10017
I did not mean to offend anyone. I was not only talking about disregrading greenpoint's concerns but also the queen's neighborhoods and othe brroklyn neighborhhods as well. I know it affects alot of people and I was talking about them all.
As understand it, the biggest problem is the current shortage of available rolling stock. The G is being cut back to Court Quare to free up some subway cars for the "new" line, the V. I do have some hope that the G could someday have a rebirth in Queens.
:-) Andrew
Years ago it had two "G"s the fabeled "GG". Then it was demoted to a single "G". Then it lost car volumn. Soon It will loose stations.
Its become the incredible shrinking line.
avid
If it was up to me, when one of the model makers comes out with an O guage R/9. I'd sign it "GG" BRKLYN-QUEENS, CROSSTOWN EXP.
Little help. but a token jesture.
avid
If it's a GG, it would have to be a Crosstown Local, not express.
You are 100% correct, my error , I.
avid am not worthy
The chances of the G service staying the same are NIL and NAUGHT.
Here's something to ponder:
What are the current daily ridership figures from the Queens Blvd corridor DIRECTLY into Brooklyn on the G and vice versa?
What are the expected ridership figures concerning the new local V line into Manhattan from the same QB corridor?
Bottom line is that the current usage does not warrant continuation of G service into Forest Hills. With the new plan all you have to do is change to a local V train at 23/Ely-Court Sq. Why is this so hard for everyone? You already do this to get into the city. And the intervals will remain the same at 10 minutes between trains.
Face it, you've got a better chance of hitting lotto TWICE than keeping G service the same. And I 110% agree with the TA's plan.
With the new plan all you have to do is change to a local V train at 23/Ely-Court Sq. Why is this so hard for everyone?
Oh, are they putting in a moving sidewalk?
Not you in particular Gary, but some people act as though a little excercise would kill them. Geez.
>With the new plan all you have to do is change to a local V train at 23/Ely-Court Sq. Why is this so hard for everyone? You already do this to get into the city.
That's just the problem. This whole sector of the city is already isolated from adjacent midtown, so now it is just becoming more isolated. I don't know where you live, but try living in an area that is only accessible by passageways and stairways. It gets tiring after awhile, and friends and family who are not transit enthusiasts don't like to go anywhere. (especially if they are dragging kids or carriages).
When all else fails follow the wisdom of Gandi and King.
Civil peaceful demonstrations. What form they would take I can't say, but let the media know in advance. It would have to envolve a very large amount of people. Like elected officials and clergy and mothers. If the public hearings held by the TA give you zero, hold your own! Al Sharpton always draws a crowd. To some people think he fits all three categorys.
avid
You have a point. At minimum MTA needs to make that whole station complex fully ADA-accessible. Perhaps investing in a new lower-level at Queens Plaza for a G terminal would be a good concession too.
Well, this is another example of little planning. If you look at the map, the sensible place to turn the G around, without affecting riders seriously, (pace the 1-seat ride debate) is Queens Plaza. However, this means crossing multiple tracks.
It’s probably too late now that everything has been built, but a local turnaround track there, that didn’t impact the various express services would have been an inspired thought.
I recognize that the current need is to get bodies into Manhattan as many, as fast, as comfortable, as possible. However, I don’t see this as being any more than a 10-year necessity. After that, a lot of the information workers, in whichever guise, will be working locally. This should change the transit patterns significantly.
As a youth, I favored the R/10 seat opposite the motormans cab. The area where there were three seats. Two facing the car and a single next to the door. That was the cool seat. It had some sort of metal box on the floor next to the wall. This some how encouraged one to place ones foot on the edge of the solo seat. It also had a side window.
Today, the closest we come to that Are the R/68s. At the end with the half cab is an "L" shaped seating area 2 x 2 seating. That lateral seat has a side window. Its the new cool spot in my subway seating book.
avid
Or ye can just do it "r62-style" by
sitting with your right ear to the
half-cab window tucking your right
ankle under your left knee..
Smoooooooth.
Not true. There is no best seat for a railfan. You need to be standing with your nose pressed against whatever glass lets you see forward!
IMHO, YMMV.
I had the opportunity to take a (brief) trip to Philadelpia this past weekend. Transit was supposed to be a big part of the trip, but, unfortunately, I didn't get to ride much. I did ride PATCO out to Lindenwold and back, though, and anyone who hasn't done it must; it's the railfan's dream. To see what I mean, look at this picture: windows all around, and, yes, that's a bench seat in front of the first window! Also, the cab is wide-open, save for an accordian-like privacy screen the operator can use. It's run like a PCC (I think), with pedals rather than a handle; there's a carlike speedometer, and announcements are made with a telephone handset mounted in the middle of the console. It does 65 mph, and one operator said it's capable of 85.
On the outbound trip, a woman and very small child were in the "railfan bench," and it was one of those "inquisitive" type children... but he was asking a lot of rail-related questions :). The operator was very friendly and joking around with them. For the return trip, the same woman and child were on, but moved further back in the car, and the front seat was mine :). And no messy nose prints on the glass!
Good picture. Question: Just how does one take a good picture like that in a subway tunnel? The light is usually so weird, with glaring bright spots and dark, dark shadows. How do you do it?
Mark
He didn't, its from the nycsubway.org archives. Looking at the blurred people the picture was taken with a rather slow shutter speed on fast film, like 64 iso with 200 film.
Yes, that particular photo was taken by Douglas Grotjahn in 1969; many of his photos appear on this site. I actually rode on one (well, two) of the 1980 Vickers Canada cars, but they're almost identical.
If you get a Budd Car you get good luck for the rest of the day :)
I guess that's why I had bad luck that day. Does my getting an old farecard instead of the "25th Anniversary" design count for anything, other than the fact that I wish I had saved it and bought another one?
They operate via controller. Its a T shape controller. The reason you might think it is PCC style is because it is ATO. Close the doors, push a button and your off. I always look at the different speed restriction light on the dash.
I always look at the different speed restriction light on the dash.
Those are just your basic US&S cab signal aspects there, a heavy rail system, modified for transit. G = Clear, Y/G = Approach Medium, Y = Approach, R/Y Restricting and R = STOP
Its fun to see the drivers manually operate the PATCO trains or even better when its raining and the train leaves a tunnel under ATO and the wheels begin to slip and the driver has to change control on the fly.
Ah... the lower half of the cab is closed; I just assumed they were doing something :)
When was this picture taken? Today, the tunnel walls are painted black.
January 4, 1969, by Douglas Grotjahn, as previously posted. But here's my own picture, taken February 17, 2001 :).
They are painted a dark purple.
Oh, O.K., must be the lighting that makes the paint to appear black.
My best seat was the unused motorman's cab on the unrebuilt B-Types. It was like a private room or booth even though your view was looking out the side window. The museum B-Types (2390-91-92) are the best example of this.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's the seat I would always try for when I took my girlfriend to the movies in Jamaica!
Nice article in today's Wall St. Journal (p. B4), about short-line operator RailAmerica. After digesting last year's purchase of RailTex and selling off a few short lines, they are poised to do more acquisitions. One possible target is Bangor & Aroostock RR in Maine. RailAmerica's lines showed 9% traffic growth last year, compared to 2% for major roads.
The B&A is currently held by Guilford ... my sympathies for RailAmerica - they're going to need to sink a sheetload of money since Guilford uses up lines until you can't move trains on them anymore and then dump them. Guilford screwed the old D&H into the ground. Sure hope the RA kids have WADS of bucks ...
BAR is an Iron Road property, not Guiltyford
Whoops ... then it means Guilford dried them out prior. I know when the unlucky "G" ran the D&H here where I am, BAR and B&M were theirs (along with Springfield Terminal) ... I was amazed to find out that the unlucky G also owned the not-quite-resurrected "PanAm" (the airline) ... damned Mellons.
I'm glad I just found this board; there appear to be some very knowledgeable folks here.
I've been studying the NYC subway map (I lived in New York during the 1990-91 academic year); and I'm finding it hard to figure out exactly how many rail tunnels there are under the East and Hudson Rivers. I know PATH has two sets of twin tubes, the southern set connecting to the WTC and the northern one leading to their 6th Avenue service; but what about Amtrak/NJ transit? Is this just one tunnel leading into Penn Station?
Meanwhile, on the East River - uy uy uy!! It's hard to tell which routes have dedicated tunnels and which ones just have separate "stripes" on the route map. Also, all the comprehensive histories on nycsubway.org; while I appreciate their thoroughness, doesn't make it clear which routes use which crossings today.
Which line(s) use(s) this "Steinway tunnel" that I've read about? Do the N&R, E&F, and 7 trains all have their own tunnels in midtown? Does the F have its own tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Brooklyn? Is the "Montague Street" tunnel the one used by the M and R trains? And (just to round out my inquiry list) can I safely deduce from the map that tha A&C, 2&3, and 4&5 trains all have tunnels all their own?
And THEN - what about the LIRR - where are its East River crossings?
AND THEN we've got the Bronx connections to worry about...
If anyone can point me to a simplified, almanac-style listing of the various subaqueous rail crossings around Manhattan - you know, one that's easier to wade thru than the comprehensive histories; I'd be much appreciative.
I thankya,
Seth P.
I don't think there is any comprehensive listing.
On PATH, there are actually four separate tubes - two go to the World Trade Center and two go to the uptown line.
Penn Station is served by two tracks (I don't know if they are in a common tunnel or not) to New Jersey and four to Long Island.
Going from south to north under the East and Harlem Rivers, you have the following subway tunnels; each has two sets of subway tracks:
Whitehall Street (old BMT)
East side IRT
Eighth Avenue (old IND)
West side IRT
Sixth Avenue (old IND)
14th Street - Canarsie (old BMT)
42nd Street - Flushing IRT (the "Steinway tunnels") - originally built for a trolley line
7th Avenue - 59th Street (old BMT)
Sixth Avenue (with a spur to Seventh as well) - 63rd Street - this is the newest tunnel and it also has two tubes for rail lines that will connect to Grand Central for LIRR trains -- all four tubes are in a single tube that was prefabricated and sunk in place
Lexington Avenue - Pelham Bay (IRT)
Lexington Avenue - Jerome Avenue (IRT)
Seventh Avenue/Broadway - White Plains Road (IRT)
155th Street - Concourse (old IND)
I think that should cover the waterfront!
I think the upper PATH route might share a single tube/bore. I know the WTC route was two distinct tunnels.
I worked for the Port Authority -- the uptown tunnels are separate for at least a part of the crossing.
No, the two-and-a-quarter tunnels are separate. First is the current westbound (to NJ), started 1874, completed 1904 (after several companies gave up). Next is the abandoned eastbound tunnel, and last is the current eastbound tunnel. In NJ, the first 2 tunnels start from a common shaft, while the 3rd is over a bit but still accessible from the same shaft.
Why did they abandon one of the tubes? Do I smell extra capasity?
Why did they abandon one of the tubes? Do I smell extra capasity?
It was never completed - as Terry said, it only goes about a quarter of the way. I don't recall with certainty the reason it wasn't finished, but it seems to me that it was too close to the other tube given the lack of stability of the river bottom.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Harlem River tunnel for the Lex is a 4-track tunnel, the split is underground in the Bronx.
-Hank
You forgot the 53rd Street Tunnel of the former IND. (E & F lines)
Also, the G train goes under Newtown Creek between Brooklyn and Queens and that counts as well.
[63rd Street Tunnel - single tube sunk in place]
To the best of my knowledge, 63rd Street is Transit's only subway tunnel that isn't truly underwater - its tube rests on the floor of the East River, and is thus IN the water, not UNDER it.
The other river tunnels were dug through solid rock beneath the riverbed, and so are truly UNDER the water.
But isn't this the tunnel that links Roosevelt Island station with LIC (to the East) and Manhattan (to the West)?
I know next to nothing about tunnel construction - despite my curiosity - but it would seem to me that it'd make more sense to bore through the riverbed from either side of the river so that the excavations would meet at underground points on the island - with sunken tubes, isn't it difficult to keep the structure watertight at both ends while it's being positioned? In the case of 63rd Street, you'd have two pairs of ends to worry about... wouldn't you?
How does that all work, anyway?
Explosives are used to dig a ditch in the riverbed, the tunnel pieces are lowered via crane into the ditch and buried beneath earth dropped there. Pumps are then used to send pressurized air into the tunnel to evacuate the water. "Sandhogs" then enter the tunnels through airlocks to work on the gaps and seal the tunnel. The tunnel, once secure and watertight, can have its pressure lowered to normal atmospheric levels.
I think the 60th Street Tunnel is also only partly under the riverbed. I read in Cudahy's (Under the Sidewalks of New York) that due to the depth of the river, they built the tunnel partially sunk into the riverbed and then covered it over with sand and dirt. This was back circa 1920.
Correct. The BMT 60th Street tunnel is only 2/3rds beneath the river bottom. The top was covered with clay and riprap.
The Lexington Avenue tunnel under the Harlem River (approx. 1910) was build built using a surprisingly "modern" method: a prefabricated steel box sunk into the river. I think you can find information about this elsewhere on this site. Also the mud and silt through which the shield driven tunnels were pushed was so soft that they always had to adjust the compressed air pressure very carefully as the tunnel advanced to deeper depths to avoid "blowouts". In fact there was such a blowout on the BMT Montague St. tunnel near downtown Manhattan. A worker was blown through the mud and silt up through the bottom of the river and finally to surface and incredibly survived!
Nevertheless the Bends was an occupational hazard for all. And having had a mild case of the Bends myself while scuba diving, I know these workers suffered a great deal, even those who survived healthily in the end. In the 20's, they didn't have the same medical treatment available as I did, even in the Middle East. The Bends hurts like a bitch!!!
From my readings on underwater tunnel construction I read that a worker suffered asimilar blowout on one of the IRT tunnels and had the misfortune of striking a barge near th surface. Needless to say he died. A nasty job in any respect..but someone had to do it.
If anyone is intrested in tunnel construction movies one was made in the 30's titled " under pressure " was a very gritty and realistic movie, if one can find a copy get it.
You can see a picture of a blowout on the PATH/Hudson Tubes at this page, which I found on the PATH section of this (nycsubway.org) site:
www.tmk.com/books/hmdinner/plate6.jpg
The H&M (PATH) tunnels are in the silt at the bottom of the riverbed, in very shallow cover (at the time of construction, the minimum cover was 15 feet or so, but that's changed). The westbound tunnel from Hudson Terminal/WTC to NJ was damaged by a vessel dredging the river and needed emergency repairs - if you look at the tunnel walls near the sump pump, you'll see that they have been concreted (over the rings).
The Astoria tunnel (non-transit) is 300 feet down, and still hit a seam of sand while it was being driven (in 1915).
There's a non-transit tunnel near the 63rd street tunnel, but much shallower, and it hit sand in both the east and west channels.
Now with the 63rd street tunnel actually sticking out from above the riverbed, isn't there a danger of damage from a vessel that runs aground or sinks?
We've already covered this. It's buried for that very reason, and to prevent it from floating up during the pressurization stage in the construction.
The tunnels have official names, there are also automotive tunnels.
The Brooklyn Battery is the first. Actually, City Water Tunnel 1 is the first.
Whitehall Street (old BMT)
Tunnels to Brooklyn except for one, are named based on their Brooklyn, not Manhattan street. This would be the Montague Street Tunnel. It also splits up before reaching the Manhattan shorefront, with another branch going up Broad Street.
East side IRT
Joralemon Street Tunnel, connects to State Street in Manhattan
Eighth Avenue (old IND)
Cranberry Street Tunnel. Under Fulton Street in Manh.
West side IRT
Clark Street Tun. Old Slip/William Street in Manh.
Sixth Avenue (old IND)
Rutgers Street Tun. Under Rutgers in Manhattan, Jay Street in Brooklyn.
14th Street - Canarsie (old BMT)
Correct name. North 7th Street in Bk.
42nd Street - Flushing IRT (the "Steinway tunnels") - originally built for a trolley line
Correct Name. 42nd Street in Manhattan, 50th Avenue in Queens.
You forgot the 4 tube LIRR tunnel from 32nd and 33rd Streets to beneath the Long Island City Terminal at Borden Avenue. South of that the Midtown Tunnel and north of it, City Water Tunnel #3.
7th Avenue - 59th Street (old BMT)
Actually, 60th Street, and that's the name. Connects to Queens Plaza in Queens. You also forgot the 53rd Street Tunnel carrying the E and F to 44th Drive.
Sixth Avenue (with a spur to Seventh as well) - 63rd Street - this is the newest tunnel and it also has two tubes for rail lines that will connect to Grand Central for LIRR trains -- all four tubes are in a single tube that was prefabricated and sunk in place
The LIRR tubes are at a lower level. The tunnel connects to 41st Avenue in Queens.
Lexington Avenue - Pelham Bay (IRT)
Lexington Avenue - Jerome Avenue (IRT)
One tunnel, Lexington Avenue to Grand Concourse (Lexington is off. name)
Seventh Avenue/Broadway - White Plains Road (IRT)
149th Street Tunnel.
155th Street - Concourse (old IND)
161st Street Tunnel.
And then after that there's City Water Tunnel #1 and #3 and the New Croton Aqueduct.
The IND Crosstown Line Tunnel should also be considered, since it is close to the East River.
Manhattan Avenue (Greenpoint) - Vernon Avenue (Long Island City).
It's been Vernon Boulevard since 1920 or so.
That's because it was an avenue in the direction of a street, so it was promoted to boulevard instead of being demoted to street.
Why was Ditmars Avenue promoted to a Boulevard if it was an east-west thoroughfare?
That's a good question. The same thing happened to Astoria Blvd. -- used to be Astoria Ave. -- but at least it does assume boulevard-like appearance beyond 81st St. The other good question is why Ditmars was allowed to keep its name instead of being demoted to 22nd Avenue?
On the Hudson river the PRR North River Tubes run about 500 feet south of the Lincoln Tunnel. I believe they are twin tubes, one for each track. On the east river side there are 4 seperate tubes and they run just north of the Queens Midtown Tunnel.
River Crossings - Starting from Northern Manhattan and working clockwise:
Spuyten Duyvil Bridge - used by AmTrak for Empire State Service to upstate NY.
Broadway Bridge - used by B'way Local (1/9). Connects Inwood, Manhattan to Marble Hill, Manhattan.
155th St. Tunnels - used by 6th Ave Express (B/D). Connects Harlem to High Bridge.
149th St. Tunnels - used by 7th Ave Express (2). Connects Lenox Ave. to White Plains Rd.
Park Ave Bridge - used by MNCR for service on Harlem, Hudson and New Haven branches.
Lexington Ave. Tunnels (4, 5, 6) - used by Lexington Ave trains, Express and Local, to connect to the Bronx.
63rd St. Tunnels - Connects Queensbridge to Manhattan via Roosevelt Island. Service subject to change until completion of 63rd St Connection sometime in 2001.
60th St. Tunnels - Used by Broadway (BMT) service (N/R) to connect to Astoria and Queens Blvd.
53rd St Tunnels - Used by Queens Blvd. Express service (E/F) to connect with 6th and 8th Ave services.
Steinway Tunnels - Used by Flushing service (7).
East River Tunnels - Used by LIRR. Connects Penn Station and Jamaica Station via Sunnyside Yards.
14th St. Tunnels - Used by Canarsie line service (L).
Williamsburg Bridge - Used by Broadway (Brooklyn) (BMT) (J,M,Z) to connect with Manhattan.
Rutgers St. Tunnels - Used by 6th Ave Local/Culver service (F).
Manhattan Bridge North - Used by Brighton and West End lines (D/Q, B) to connect with 6th Ave via Grand St.
Manhattan Bridge South - Used by Brooklyn 4th Ave service to connect with Broadway. Currently not in use.
Cranberry St. Tunnels - Used by 8th Ave service (A/C) to connect with Fulton St, Brooklyn.
Clark St. Tunnels - Used by 7th Ave IRT service (2/3).
Montague St. Tunnels - Used by Broadway (BMT) and Nassau St. services (N/R, M) to connect with Brooklyn. Alternative to Manhattan Bridge South for Broadway service.
Joralemon St. Tunnels - Used by Lexington Ave service (4/5) between Lowest Manhattan and Brooklyn.
PATH Tubes South - Used by PATH between World Trade Center, NY and Newark Penn Station.
PATH Tubes North - Used by PATH between Herald Sq., NY and Hoboken Terminal or Newark Penn Station.
North River Tunnels - Used by NJT and AmTrak between Penn Station, NY and Newark Penn Station
Please add the following to the list: 63rd St. LIRR tunnels (2 tubes) - no tracks installed yet. Awaiting East Side Access completion. These tubes are the lower level of the 63rd St tunnel box.
Pigs & Alex L. have provided some great detail, but lets not forget the Gowanus Canal bridge.
Mr t__:^)
Okay, Okay. but the man did ask for underwater routes emanating from Manhattan. Other water crossings include:
Gowanus viaduct over the Gowanus Canal
Crosstown local tube under Newtown Creek
Roosevelt Ave el over Flushing River
Bway el over the original Harlem River (Bway Bridge crosses the Harlem River Ship Canal - ask anyone who lives in Marble Hill)
Westchester Ave Bridge over Bronx River
White Plains Rd line el over Bronx River
West End/ Sea Beach Bridge over Coney Island Creek
I think that covers them all.
What about A train viaduct over Jamaica Bay?
You also have the Willy B, the Manny B and the two bridges in Jamaica bay, plus the partial ride over the water
Criminy. I became a transit fan in Boston, where they've got the Blue Line under the Harbor, the Red Line over the Longfellow Bridge, the Green Line over the Charles River Dam, and that's IT for water crossings.
You New Yorkers have got too much to keep track of!!!
What about the crossing into Charlestown? What about the tunnel under Fort Point Channel (lengthwise)?
Finally, look at some very old maps. All of Back Bay is land fill, including the entire length of the Boyleston St.
Especially when we are told that they are unsafe fire hazards (the LIRR Tunnels) or are falling down (the Willy B.) LOL
Go back and read my original answer: I know the Willy B and Manny B are there!
The 'original' Harlem River is no longer there.
-Hank
Right & if you ride the Tran at the Bronx Zoo they'll tell you it new name ;-)
Mr t
Two points-
It is the Bronx River (at the Zoo) and it is supposed to be the Irriwady River of Myanmar (Burma).
In 1994, the TA published a 54 page booklet called, "Facts & Figures - Celebrating 90 Years of Subway Service". I don't have any spare copies but you might try the transit Museum or one of the Gift Shops. As for tunnels, the actual number is suprising. There are 14 under-water tunnels in the NYCT system. Well not so suprising but what is suprising is that there are more bridges - 43 to be exact.
Here's another stat that you didn't ask about. The TA uses 1.8 billion KW hours of electricity annually (1994 number).
Deep underground, between 34th St and West 4th St. the 6th Ave express runs below an underground stream. I don't know its name if it has one.
Way back in time this area was meadow like. That is part of the reason there are NO skyscrapers in that area of Manhattan.
Old maps , dating to colonial times once indicated streams and meadow areas of most of manhattan.
This may qualify that stretch of tunnel (Curved like under river tunnels ) as underwater.
avid
The "dash" express tracks are alot like an under-river tube, in construction.
Yeah I always wondered why there are no tall buildings in that area..
In a previous job, I worked at the American Place Theatre (46 St just west of 6 Ave). In the lower basement level were 4 sump pumps which turned on when the stream that runs below the building ran high. This stream ran eastward to the East River, so I would imagine that there are other buildings that have this same feature.
Speaking of G service, the 4:53 G Continental on Tuesday took a bottom yellow at 36 St and wound up at 21 St-Queensbridge. First G outta FH gets whacked. Maybe the T/O was suggesting a new 63 St route plan?
Are the subways going to go the way of Metro North and actually put arrow signals (pointing straight, left, or right) to be sure that the T/O gets the right route??
Hahaha. No, that would require years of work, after the TA just finished upgrading the whole BMT.
>Maybe the T/O was suggesting a new 63 St route plan?
With "cutbacks" on the G "coming", mights't well
try your hand at getting a sweep thru the 63rd
Connector any which way possible... even if it
means taking a wrong lineup and winding up in
parts "un-explored"..
That T/O must be in really, really hot water for his mistake!!
Talk about a major oops.
Not only the T/O, but two TW/O's as well.
Turns out that the G train was re-routed via the express track at Roosevelt Av. Only problem is that the switch at Queens Plaza is out of service on the south end for switch replacement, and the switch on the north end of QP is permanently out of service as it cannot handle 75 foot cars. If a 75 foot car takes the switch, the train will hit the retaining wall.
As far as the TW/O at Queensboro Master giving him the lineup to 21 St, I can't figure that one out as no trains were to go to 21 St at that time.
>> no trains were to go to 21 St at that time<<
yeah, and don't they lay up some Q's on the tail tracks there until about 1700 ?
I have to take issue with your statement: "the switch on the north end of QP is permanently out of service as it cannot handle 75 foot cars....." A couple of weeks ago, TGC1 died at 36th St. on D1 track. G & R trains had to share D3 track with the E & F between Roosevelt and north of Queens Plaza. They used that switch to bring the G & R into QP and back onto their regular routes. I know that switch was oout for a spell, but I do recall it being returned to use.
I got that info from a Supt. So much for that.
Also a track that's out of service is usually marked by a row of red lights and a trip arm. Either it wasn't there or something failed.
I don't think T1 is "out of service," it just wasn't scheduled for use at the time.
I recieved this copy of a Scotrail incident report fomr a seceret source. Has anybody ever encountered this problem before? It's quite amusing.
That's English Railroading for you!
Let's hope it was the glass and not the (glug, glug,) that was making him feel ill. I have NEVER heard of that before, although a windscreen that magnifies would certainly help me! It is possible if it was safety glass with a layer of plastic, and was shaped wrong. My uncle manages a glass store, (I'm serious,) so I'll ask him. A magnifying glass is nothing more then a bent piece of glass. Concave or Convex, I cannot remember which.
TJM
It's convex. A macroscope would be concave.
)( convex
( ) concave
avid
You got it backwards.
Convex lense magnifies: ()
Concave lens: )(
Yeah, that's right, concave is indented, like a cave. Convex looks like..umm, a vex.
what about )) ?
convave?
and
concax?
And Pearls Optical now wishes to use this web page to advertise.
"Having trouble seeing that homeball? Got tripped up on the Williamsburg Bridge? Go to http://www.nycsubway.org and see what these fine people have to say about our eyeglasses!"
No part of the previous post has anything to do with England!
Well if you're going to go on splitting hairs I'm going to piss off.
How far off?
avid
i have said this before, nycsubway is a good board, it's a pity that it is populated by stupid people - philly guy has a good point, but the jersey mike often writes good posts. in my view, he is wasting his time posting them here, cuz these posts deserve much better audience than one which this board can offer. this explains why i hardly ever post here. it's shite.
Um, would you mind not insulting people at my promotion. Few people here are stupid. They are just ignorant of real RAILROAD issues. They are content to live in their small transit world.
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but if the G line does not go past
Court Square when all said and done, what is the feasiblity of increasing the G frequency to 5 minutes with 4 car lengths and/or
running some type of skip/stop express service on the line (the do it on the J and z line??), or doing an express from Bedford/Nostrand right to Hoyt/schermerhorn in the morning rush and then the opposite in the afternoon rush. I think this is somewhat feasible since no other train uses this line but the G.
Typical Express---Court Square, Greenpoint Ave, Metropolitan, Myrtle,
Bedford, Fulton, Hoyt, then local stops
Other express----Court Square, Nassau Ave, Metropolitan, Flushing,
Bedford, Clinton/Washington, Hoyt, then local stops
Any suggetsions/comments
Current ridership does not warrant express service, nor does it warrant 5 minute intervals.
10 minute local service is just fine.
Much as I'd like to see an increase in G service, Your right, running an express or increasing service would be wasteful. If the G somehow found a way to continue running to 71st., then maybe an express would be warranted, but otherwise, no, even at peak rush hours G trains don't even experience C train 'crush' loads.
The 'crush' time comes during the AM & PM rush hour when the G runs 20 mins apart. And this rush hour. During off peak, the G comes every 1/2 hour.
Since I live in the Greenpoint area, I have given up taking the G train to and from work. I take the bus ( B61 ) to LIC and catch the 7 train at Vernon-Jackson. Total time of trip: 20 mins from Greenpoint to Midtown ( Grand Central Station ).
Don't stretch the truth. The G has much better frequency than you say.
G Schedule
Click the link at the top of the page.
BTW: Notice the station guide indicates the G stops at 179st-75th ave "Late Nights Only." A tad out of date, don't you think?
I might have stretched it out a bit but service could use improvement. Pehaps making the trainset to 8 cars from the current 6. But as I read, there is a car shortage. So much for that.
I wouldn't say " A tad out of date ". It beyond out-of-date.
Although I ride the G, and I would never decline a service improvement, They won't increase service at all. The G line just doesn't have enough ridership. And, AM/PM rush on the G is nothing like AM/PM rush on the C.
As I have implied, the incoming R-143s should go to help the C. When they have enough to make all rush hour Cs 10 cars, then the rest will go to the G or V, whichever is in need. {If Gs get more crowded they'll have to be helped.}
R-143s are for the Canarsie Line and CBTC. They are not replacing anything with the R-143s.
Peace,
ANDEE
Amen, Paul! I have relatives in the Greenpoint area...even in very cold weather, especially during late-night hours, they prefer a walk over the Polanski Bridge to catch the #7 instead of waiting for the G. If you miss it, you pay with time!! -Nick
Nice idea, but as I learned when I lived on Myrtle and Washington Avs, it might be more feasible to rebuild the Myrtle Ave El.
the G train is an abomination on the rush hour idea. I'm not sure if I'm exaggerating, but I remember waiting 15 minutes between trains at rush hours. Any skip-stop would work, since who the hell takes the an intra-G train ride?
PPS
I myself have never been on a train when it went through a skip-stop area while actually skipping stops. Tell me, how they do that? Do they slow to 15 mph the way an express train skips a stop on the local tracks or do they fly by without slowing?
Has anyone ever checked out this site? It's great to track elevated and surface subway lines. You need an address near the line you'd like to look at, though.
Globexplorer
It's the same images used by terraserver.com, although the address interface is a great help. It doesn't exactly show transit lines, however.
I just thought up something (actually it was a few days ago), And this idea would eliminate all the problems that subtalkers have brought up regarding the Manhattan Bridge flip-flop.
First, eliminate the B on Central Park West. Presently, it has been mentioned that the B will be 8 sets of 8 car r-68 trains. Instead, send 6 of these sets to the N line for 6 sets of 8 car r-32's. Put these new R-32's on the C line. Rush hours, you can send the C train to Bedford Pk. Blvd. and 168 rush hours (much like the A at Rkway blvd., it actually splits 3 ways rush hrs.). The 2 extra sets of r-68's can be used to expand D service from 10 tph to 12. At 59th 6th av. passengers can transfer to D trains. People ultimately heading to bklyn over the bridge can take the C to 42nd Times Square and transfer to N,Q,R, and yellow B service to Brooklyn. (and, they can walk that long tunnel, just like us G riders will have to at Ct. Sq.)
In Brooklyn, Instead of the letter W, use B a letter everyone is already familiar with (same service pattern as in the 80's). The M can Be switched to Brighton as the local, eliminating the need for 2 different Q trains. R-40's that would be used for the Q local can be put on the Q exp., M and B lines (As needed). Any R-40's on the B can be swapped to the N line for those R-68's that were sent there in the last paragraph. Seeing as the Bridge now only has 2 services on it, the N can once again return to express service (#4 Sea Beach Fred should like this).
This plan helps out everyone: Fulton local riders get extra service (which it can certainly handle), West End riders get to keep the B train (and the B express actually gets a little boost in service), Brighton riders don't have to worry about 2 Q trains, N riders are no longer tortured thru Montague, and M service runs to Brooklyn all day. There is only one problem that I forsee: People riding Downtown at 145th st. rush hours. Since the C will be both upstairs and downstairs, it might create problems for riders waiting for a local.
The Q Local was going to use the R68s from the current D.
Make announcements telling passengers what level the next C will be on.
And, the Express was going to use the R-40's? That couldn't be right, the R-68 express trains were supposed to use the yellow diamond Q signage, while the local used the circle. R-40's do not have the Diamond, and R-68's do not have the circle (R-68a cars have the Circle, but not the diamond, excluding the first few cars.
While i was heading home from work & i was riding on #5 train than i saw Kawasaki R142a 7221-7230 running uptown with passerger. So i got off at 42th St & wait for R142 arrive than i got on. The ride is smooth & quiet but i haven't seen other R142 on #6 line. I think that the only cars that is currently running.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
David,
I had an strange dream last night. I dreamt that R-142's were being shipped weekly and the TA was running out of room to store them. They weren't in service because of problems, but them kept coming and coming. There was no stopping them, Unionport yard was being filled to capacity.
WAIT A MINUTE !! That's not a dream, that's reality !!
Sweet dreams !
Bill "Newkirk"
That's the funny thing, the Redbirds that are supposed to be on the way out are actually relpacing r-142 cars in service.
7221-30 were on the road, Sunday Night as they passed by me on 51 St and Lex Av. 7271-80 were making simulated stops on the same day.
-Stef
You are correct. I rode that set yesterday 42 to PBP and then back down to 14-US. It was the only set out yesterday. It got a real test at 77St going downtown.
While i was heading home from work & i was riding on #5 train than i saw Kawasaki R142a 7221-7230 running uptown with passerger. So i got off at 42th St & wait for R142 arrive than i got on. The ride is smooth & quiet but i haven't seen other R142 on #6 line. I think that the only cars that is currently running.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
I got my permanant card today along with a slew of other brochures and advertisements that came in the envelope.
I was skimming the TOC and I didn't see the thing about making arrangemnts 3 weeks in advance. I had read this in the brochure with my temporary card.
Now, I have some questions. When this thing says you get 2 points for every dollar you spend with Amtrak, does that apply to lets say, the food car?
Also, what is this magnetic stripe on the back for?
Thanks, in advance.
And last but not least, they used a normal stamp on the envelope they sent this in. Odd, don't you think?
I received mine about a week ago. I don't think it's any different than a frequent flyer miles card (they're direct competition). While I've yet to use mine, I doubt it applies to purchases on board, like an airline card.
I got mine about a month ago. I used it for an online purchase. I think its only 1 point per dollar.
I've the card for about 6 months and still waiting for the permanent card. Hope it works on the Autotrain.
What does the temporary card look like. The one they sent me is blue plastic credit card thing with a mag stripe, my # and my name on it.
It's has the Amtrak logo printed with your name and card number. The card itself is done on a thin cardboard with a plastic coating. No mag stripe. Amtrak told me that I will get my new card in 6 to 8 weeks. That was 6 months ago.
This might be a good time to call and remind them about the card.
I got the permanent card on first request (within a week); looks like an airline frequent flier card. You should ask again.
I wonder if they take points away when they give you a voucher when they screw up (a regular occurance).
Anybody know anything about Trolley Time Challenge??(or any of the other simulators on that site)
Is it any good?
http://www.railtronics.com/Software_Simulations.html#Trolley
They play it every day on the Green Line in Boston! ;-)
I beta tested it, I enjoy it but now that I do it for real at Shoreline... It was written for Win 3.1 generation of machines works okay on Win95 and I don't know about any other O.S. I'll be loading it on a PIII/800 Win98 tonight to see if it works on my new PC. I normaly play it on my laptop when traveling. I use the keyboard controls instead of the mouse and it took me about 10 hours of play to master it at the hardest level then it gets boring and you do stuff like run the wrong wrote and try to run backwards w/o dewiring.
The guy who wrote Tolley Time also has other rail road stuff out like Frieght Engine.
First, I'll preface this with saying that the renamed alley is accessible from the Fulton Street station, which services half the subway lines in the city.
I was walking toward the Seaport the other day when I turned up Gold Street to admire the cast-iron lamppost that still hangs on one of the adjoining buildings, when I noticed a new name on one of the new black and white street signs that have sprung up in the past year.
Ryders Alley is an elbow shaped thoroughfare that runs from Gold to Fulton. Old maps show it's been there since the late 1700s at least. However, the leg that abuts Gold Street has been renamed 'Edens Alley'. The leg that runs to Fulton St. is still called Ryders Alley.
Oddly enough, I know why the city renamed one leg of Ryders Alley. The 'bible' of old NYC street names is a book called 'As You Pass By', published in 1953 as a history of the NYC Fire Department, but also works as a history of old New York. A glossary lists old street names, and I was aware that the old name of Ryders Alley was, in fact, Edens Alley.
So, whoever is in charge of the new black and white signs is a student of NYC history as well. Any Subtalkers know that agency (it's not the DOT)? I'd like to congratulate them for the little bit of scholarship they unearthed...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don't know who did the research for the signs, but I think it was the Alliance for Downtown NY that sponsored putting them up, along with the new informational/directional signs all over downtown that (theoretically) make it easier to find your way around.
On one corner (Rector and Greenwich...??) the new black and white signs are next to an old black-on-yellow sign on an adjacent pole.
>>>On one corner (Rector and Greenwich...??) the new black and white signs are next to an old
black-on-yellow sign on an adjacent pole. <<<
That would make a good photo...
I will check out Alliance for Downtown NY.
www.forgotten-ny.com
That would make a good photo...
I had taken a photo of it some weeks ago when I first noticed it. Not a great angle, but you get the idea ...
I love SEPTA, and everyone else hates it. Sure, it has some bad spots, but I love sitting in a nice Neoplan or M-4 car, as well as the N-5, which are very comfortable in my opinion. However, everyone else hates me. Maybe it's because I live in the suburbs with the UTU rather than the infamous TWU Local 234. But I still love SEPTA.
There are some advantages to SEPTA:
They have a huge variety of types of transit vehicles
The trains can get pretty fast, unless the New York's MTA... Molasses Transit Authority.
The Regional Rail is 100% electric, that's the way it's supposed to be.
>>>They have a huge variety of types of transit vehicles<<<
I don't particularly see that as an advantage. It's great to have a diverse rail fleet and that's the way it should be, but the only reason I like the NYC/NJ area is because there are about 5,000 RTS buses roaming that area. If NYC didn't have any RTS buses there's a 22% chance I wouldn't move there, and if it had no rail or subway service, there'd be a 75% chance I wouldn't move there.
>>> The Regional Rail is 100% electric, that's the way it's supposed to be.<<<
Electric Trains are pretty fast from what I understand, I still prefer the noise and look of the diesels though.
>>>The trains can get pretty fast, unless the New York's MTA... Molasses Transit Authority.<<<
I hear there buses aren't too hot either. It'll just be nice to commute by train or subway sometimes as well, even if they are slow.
I don't particularly see that as an advantage. It's great to have a diverse rail fleet and that's the way it should be...
I'm not talking about types of vehicles, I'm talking about class. SEPTA has commuter rail, busses, electric busses, light rail, heavy rail subway and the Route 100 "light rail" that's 100% grade-separated, powered by third rail and all high platform.
I hear there buses aren't too hot either. It'll just be nice to commute by train or subway sometimes as well, even if they are slow.
The busses are good, the problem is that there are few places where a bus can travel at speed.
I've never ridden on any part of Philly's transit system; could someone please explain how this Route 100 could be called "light rail" if in fact it's powered by a 3rd rail? I know there are a few heavy-rail lines that use overhead (Skokie Swift in Chicago, Blue Line in Boston...) but what's the deal with Route 100?
Light rail has nothing to do with power. The Camden-Trenton line will use DIESEL LRVs.
A light rail line is basically a line with bus-like capacity.
It's an interurban so it straddles the line between Light rail and transit rail. Heavy rail means an FRA railroad and lines like PATCO, PATH and the SIRR straddle the line between transit and heavy rail.
Heavy rail does NOT mean an FRA railroad. Commuter rail isn't heavy rail, it is its own category. The APTA definition of heavy rail is:
Heavy Rail--High-speed, passenger rail cars operating singly or in trains of two or more cars on fixed rails in separate rights-of-way from which all other vehicular and foot traffic are excluded. Also known as "rapid rail,"
"subway," "elevated (railway)," or "metropolitan railway (metro)."
I made a new (aka "better") scale of rail. Street Rail, light rail, transit rail, heavy rail.
Since I ride the line almost daily, I think I can help you out.
The Route 100 is certainly a unique line, operating with a 3rd rail yet having the status of light rail. The reason why it is called a lightrail line is because it operates 1 car double ended cars (2 during peak service hours). I suppose it's the only light rail line in the country that actually uses a third rail for power rather than an overhead wire. In addition to that, it also runs at light rail frequencies at about every 15 minutes or so during peak service to every half hour on Sundays and at night.
The new (Feb 12) SEPTA Route 100 timetable calls for a Norristown express and a Bryn Mawr local every 12 minutes during rush hours; that's a 6 minute headway between 69th Street and Bryn Mawr.
It could be a three minute headway and it would still be "light rail." That's not the point. The point is the cars are at the most four units long - which is only equal to about three NYC subway cars (60-footers).
Vancouver's Skytrain is considered "light rail" and yet it runs off of a third rail in the center of the track using linear induction motors. You couldn't run Skytrain in the street either, but it's still "light rail."
So in that case lets say a 75 footer of r-68 can be operated. If it carries less then a certain amount of passengers it can still be called light rail? It would really be neat if one of these could pass a grade crossing.
It would have to be a small grade crossing if only one or two R68s were used or they might lose the third rail while crossing the road.
The L had a grade crossing at E. 105th Street until not long ago.
True, but the L never ran with only one or two cars.
Yeah, in that section they run really often. However, I think the Norristown express leaves closer to the Bryn Mawr local than the Bryn Mawr local after the Express.
Yeah, in that section they run really often. However, I think the Norristown express leaves closer to the Bryn Mawr local than the Bryn Mawr local after the Express. I'm not exactly sure though, but that's what it feels like. They might've changed the schedule a tad, though.
Route 100 (or the P&W as us "old-timers" know it) has been 3rd rail since day one in 1906. The Philadelphia & Western Railroad was planned as a Philadelphia-Chicago "Air Line" (a late 19th Century term for a very straight and fast railroad). It got as far as Strafford when the money ran out.
And the rest is history, and a fantastic story
Did not Route 100 operate for a while with some Budd subway cars borrowed from the Market-Frankford Line?
Sure did. In the "equipment crisis" period, as the Bullets and 60's were dying, SEPTA applied a "band-aid" in the form of ex-CTA PCC L cars and four single unit Budds from the Elevated. The Budds were equipped with trucks salvaged from the PATH "K" cars. (This was necessary as the Elevated is 5' 2 1/2" gauge, and the P&W is standard.) The K's and the Budd's shared the same truck type, except for the gauge.
When the N5's finally arrived in number and were accepted, the PCC's were scrapped. The Budd's were supposed to be returned to the Elevated, but after the stint on the P&W, the El didn't want them back. They were scrapped as well.
And yet SEPTA classifies Route 100 as a Rapid Transit Line. I was wondering why it uses third rail. Was the P & W line ever planned to go directly to Philadelphia? Which way would it have entered Philly?
The Route 100 is really a "hybrid", it uses railcars that have a trolley carbody and subway car running gear (the reverse of the CTA El cars), so the question that either it's a light rail line or a rapid transit line remains.
Well, they classify it as a rapid transit line I would suppose because it's pretty fast. From 69th Street to Bryn Mawr it isn't as fast as maybe after Radnor after the big turn. But, basically, it's a pretty fast line. That's why it's called the Norristown High Speed Line.
No, the P&W was never intended to enter Philadelphia. Rather, it connected with the Lehigh Valley interurbans at Norristown; their Liberty Bell Limited and other cars ran over the P&W to 69th Street Terminal.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, the P & W did threaten to build its own elevated line a half-block south of Market St (over Ludlow St) to enter Center City if it was not permitted to terminate at 69th St Terminal. Whether it would have ever made good with this foolish plan is doubtful, but it was sufficient to get a P & W terminal grafted onto the north side of 69th St at the last minute. This temporary wooden terminal lasted for 55 years until it was replaced by the current one in 1962.
Read about the P&W here
Istanbul has a "hafif metro," or light metro that is similar to the Rt. 100. It too is third rail powered and completely grade separated, even in a subway closer to downtown. I suppose it's called light because they only run in two-car sets and run out into the suburbs, but Istanbul's traffic is so horrible that they have no seats and run about every 5 minutes. They're always packed full even at off-peak hours.
Well, that's a system that really needs help. They should add more cars. However, the stations are probably not long enough anyway.
It was built in anticipation of the real metro, which is, unfortunately, many years from reaching those neighborhoods. For the money available at the time, it was either build a light-rail line, or an expressway; they couldn't afford a metro yet. But now that Turkey is vastly richer than it was, the NW suburbs will get their real metro too.
But isn't Turkey's currency now the smallest in the world? Although it's recovering from an all time low a few months ago.
The size of one unit of their currency means nothing. They just have more of them. There are 100 yen in a dollar, but that doesn't mean we're 100 times richer than Japan.
Yes, but the Turkish Lira wasn't always so small, there was runaway inflation.
It might be over now, and then it doesn't matter if the smallest coin is a 2000 Lira coin the size of a penny.
I haven't been there recently, but the smallest coin I've ever seen is 10,000 lira. At that time (Spring 97), a million lira note was $8. From what I read today, it's $1.25. But the interest rate is attuned to the inflation rate. In a normal savings account, you can expect 65% per year. But then, most personal savings accounts are denominated in dollars, marks, or euros. The inflation is annoying, but doesn't really hurt anyone except the very poor. If you go to an upscale store, especially in a mall, the prices are all in Euros anyway. The inflation had been pretty normal until the spring of 94, when a record number of Turkish students had matriculated to American universities, then suddenly cancelled when they saw their tuition more than double over the summer before they were to begin. I guess it worked out in my favor when I studied there with a number of fluent English speakers with 750+ SATs who loved nothing more than to pump me for info on college life in America (it's not that different). But regardless of currency, Turkey's GNP surpassed Russia's a few years ago (although it since fell because of the high oil price [Turkey is a huge energy importer, and Russia produces as much oil as Saudi Arabia]). They are now quite realistically planning a tunnel under the Bosphorous, an enginering feat second only to the Chunnel; as well as converting the commuter rail lines on each side of the city: Europe and Asia; into full-scale metros to meet underwater. I cant't wait to visit when they get the Olympics. It won't be soon, but it will happen. They were candidates in 2000, 2004, 2008, and if they lose to Beijing this time, 2012.
Turkie with their human rights violations (kurds) + unstable economy won't be EU in 50 yesrs. As far as I know it they have not closed any chapters.
Arti
Yeah, SEPTA rocks. It might be a little too bus reliant, but it has an extensive system and is usually faster/easier than driving.
Actually, if you really think about it, although in Philadelphia you are probably right about it being too bus reliant, it sorta isn't. Here's why. SEPTA is the only company that I know of right now that doesn't have express bus routes that require MCI or intercity buses. I understand that there is the new 80 express that uses transit buses to Horsham, and 123 is sorta limited, although I wouldn't really consider it an express route that much. However, the regional rail basically serves the counties' commuting needs.
I too was puzzled by Philly's lack of express busses having lived in Boston. I spent several months taking the bus to Davis Sq., where I boarded the red line to change to the green line to get to Newton. Then I found out about an express bus from Medford Sq. to Haymarket that saved me about 20 minutes each way each day. Philly has nothing like this, although I doubt it would be very fast if they existed, especially since the Schuylkill can't be widened or give up space for HOV/bus lanes.
SEPTA's pretty decent, but it needs a dedicated source of funding and a capital planning process to build crucial assets - like new routes, or bringing the Market Frankford Line or Broad Street Line up to ADA specs. Too few stations are ADA-compliant, both on commuter rail and subway.
Well, SEPTA is actually creating a lot of new routes, but I agree with you about the stations.
Creating new bus routes isn't exactly a long-term capital improvement. And if they go ahead with the SVM, we won't see new busses for 40 years.
Well, it's something, and I thought that long lasting buses were great. That's why so many people liked the New Looks and RTSs. they last for 30 years. And I know that creating new bus routes isn't going to make SEPTA 100 times better, but at least it's something.
I love riding SEPTA trains. I just wish I could ride them all the way to my house!
Mark
The infrastructure is great. The only problem is every human being associated with SEPTA: the workers, management, the lawyers. Replace them all, and you've got a great system.
I think that SEPTA is all right, it's just that they have made a boneheaded decision of going bact to ABB/Adtrash (excuse me, Adtranz) for the M-4 fleet after the Norristown fiasco. IMO, the M-4's are crap. Otherwise, The Neoplans are cool (both the old AN435/440's and the new AN460), The Kawasakis rule The Subway/Surface, Rts. 101 and 102, and The Broad Street Subway. Only Kawasaki is worthy enough to replace The PCC (They are also worthy enough to replace Almond Joys as well, but they didn't, and Adtranz is not worthy). As far as Regional Rail goes, how many commuter rail systems that are as large as SEPTA's can boast that they are enviromentally friendly? I don't think that the surrounding communities are complaining about railroad pollution, and because they are electric, they are faster and quieter. When it's time to Replace The AM General Trolleybuses, I hope they go back to Neoplan, If not, then they should go to NovaBus for something new, an RTS trolleybus.
BTW: SEPTA is also running or at least testing some new low-floor buses. I saw one on route 21 on Chestnut Street right behind Independence Hall. I can't wait to ride one.
I think SEPTA's bus service is really good, and the buses are a lot cleaner than I've seen in other cities. My only SEPTA gripe is there need to be more subway lines, and the stations could use some severe makeovers.
Mark
Did you ever go to city hall station? That needs help, but thankfully they are going to renovate it.
I love the City Hall station. Its all vintage and it has an enchanting musk. I hope they don't do away with that wacky mezzanene.
It would be much nicer if they cleaned it up a little bit and didn't have this pipe or whatever hiss and like blow up or whatever. the Mezzanine is pretty cool, it could be repainted. They just really need to renovate the platform.
They may say they will renovate City Hall, but it will do nothing. The huge columns and narrow staircases are needed to support the City Hall building above, and they cannot go away. While a rennovation may mean new tiles on the floor, it won't do much to ease the horrible conditions there.
It's a shame, because that's such a horrible looking station.
The tiles are falling off the walls, its dark and smelly and generally uninviting.
What were they planning to do?
The biggest problem is the connection between lines. The hallways are tiny and the route is not very direct. I don't suppose there's much they can do about that, though. I do love the system of pedestrian passageways that emanate out underground from City Hall.
I have ridden the Market-Frankford line many times. As a rider, I like the new Adtranz cars. They're fast, somewhat quieter than the Budd cards they replaced (though not as quiet as I had hoped) and comfortable.
I cannot speak as a motorman or conductor, though. Do they not like them?
The M-4's not as fast as Almond Joys once were, and The Almond Joys were very fast.
Yes, the Budd cars certainly did accelerate nicely and often raced out to Spring Garden once free of the tunnel. The whistle was a cute touch. Trouble is, the end doors didn't stay closed. as a kid, I loved the way the old D train of the early 60's made a thundering entrance. Now, I'd just as soon not lose my hearing - ride the the "Almond Joy" trains enough, it's almost guaranteed. And they sweltered like anything in summer; the fans were next to useless. I was the steak in the barbeque.
Remember the old cars on the IND with the open spinning fans?
The conductors hate them, they all got fired.
"The conductors hate them, they all got fired."
OK. How about the motormen?
SEPTA City Division employees are represented by TWU 234. They would never allow enployees to be fired just because their job position was abolished. The ex-conductors are working at other jobs in SEPTA, by whatever seniority they had.
I don't understand why those trains are crap. The N-5s are really comfortable. Sure they are a little boxy, but I prefer those more than the old trains that were running on that line. Also, the M-4s are quite advanced, and pretty nice. They also have a bright interior, which I like. The Kawasaki trollies are okay, I guess, but their doorways are way too narrow. If I was 50-100 pounds more than I am right now, I would literally get stuck in the doorways. Although I like Neoplans, don't forget that most of the fleet are Neoplans, or there is a higher amount of Neos than any other bus in the fleet. Anyway, I wouldn't like to see an RTS trolleybus. If you haven't realized it, they just got rid of their RTSs bout 4 years ago. they need a change, rather than just going back to the same old designs. Besides, SEPTA is supposedly getting new trackless trollies soon.
What about NABI, I know that Ikarus makes trackless trolleys, but does NABI?
Arti
NABI happens to be Ikarus
I know, it a division or JV of Ikarus in US, but the question still stands.
Arti
Sorry to disappoint you. It isn't the worst system, but it isn't tbe best. While it is fun to ride and railfan on, it can be infrequent, irreliable, and slow. It also costs a bit more than the average TA. DC Metro sets the standard in my opinion for all other transit systems, at least on the East Coast with perhaps Atlanta giving a little competition but I haven't ridden there enough to say. SEPTA comes in in the middle of the pack. Last place you ask? Either New York or Boston, probably the latter. Boston is slower than slow and the fares are outrageous.
Boston is slower than slow and the fares are outrageous.
$1 is outrageous?
2.50 for the Riverside line is. Per person. For a group of 9, it comes out to 31.50 to go from any station further out than Reservior to downtown and back.
There are fares higher than that in DC!
Not for every ride.
"Not for every ride."
almost all boston rides are $1 and all but the green line are fast.
Not for every ride.
I assume that in Boston every ride involves going past Reservoir on the Green Line, right?
How can you call Boston's fares outrageous? The round trip on the Riverside branch equals out to $1.75 each way. And even if you want to stretch it, the fares from Quincy, Braintree and Mattapan is $2 each way.
But the WMATA charges $2.10 maximum off-peak and $3.25 peak one way. What's your take on these fares? A bargain they ain't.
"But the WMATA charges $2.10 maximum off-peak and $3.25 peak one way. What's your take on these fares? A bargain they ain't."
One possible rationale is that affluent riders from the 'burbs perceive or expect that higher fares will tend to keep riff-raff off the trains. Some riders in NY express a preference for LIRR over subway because of their fear of "low-lifes" (I am only offering an observation and a possible explanation for behavior. I absolutely do not agree with or condone prejudging the people one may or may not meet on a train any given day based on their income or expected skin color).
WMATA's Metro fares are distance and time based. Rush hour fares are higher than off-peak fares, and the farther you ride, the more it costs. There are unlimited "day passes", good only after the AM rush, and there is a minimum fare amount.
The rush hour fare is assessed by the time of entry, and at 7:00 Pm there are knots of people waiting until the annoucement to enter the system.
Since the farecards are cash valued, collecting a time/distance fare system is basically easy.
hey all, I love ANYTHING that helps keep my toilet waste disposal running!!! Peace, Thomas :)
>>>. DC Metro sets the standard in my opinion for all other transit systems,<<<
DC Metro, as in WMATA? HA HA HA! You wish. Then, you have the nerve to put NYC last? WMATA may be superior to bus only TAs like Houston-Metro, nut NYC is light years ahead of them. WMATA would love to have the large reliable fleet of TA and Private owned buses NYC does. WMATA also doesn't have the vast network of commuter and subway lines NYC does. I know WMATA may be rated as "one of the best" systems on Bus/SubTalk, but from what I've read here and from what I know about good transit systems, WMATA belongs BEHIND NYC transit. It's just not in their league.
RTS_2150, the WMATA is really a nice transit company. Maybe they don't have 20 subway lines, but the metrorail started service in 1976. Therefore, it sorta is a new company. The NYC subway dates back to the 1900s. Plus, the WMATA's trains are much more advanced than the trains that are running in NY. At least, for their age, they were really advanced. The stations are great and magnificent, with special architectural designs, rather than just building a regular old fashioned subway station. With the WMATA's subway stations, you can't hide from cameras, and from outer platforms, it's not that easy to do much graffiti. Also, the train stations are clean (more than I can say for some NYC subway stations). In addition to the stations, the trains themselves are very comfortable, with carpeting and such, making the ride so much more comfortable than sitting on grey hard benches sitting next to that guy that you don't know and looks like he's going to snap (well, that didn't actually happen to me, but it could happen).
There are many different factors involved here. In my somwhat limited experience of some systems, the newer ones tend to be cleaner at least. This is only for sub/el:
Cleanliness:
DC
Jax
Atlanta
Boston
Cleveland
Chicago
Philly
NY
Coverage:
NY
Chicago
Boston
DC
Philly
Atlanta
Cleveland
Jax
Frequency:
NY
Chicago
Boston/DC/Philly (tie)
Atlanta
Cleveland
Jax
Customer Service:
(I don't have enough experience on most systems to make an informed judgement, but I would place Chicago above NY or Philly)
Another thing to consider is the areas or number of riders who are out of town tourists as opposed to regular commuters. I think DC is very tourist oriented. And Jax is still hosting tourists from 2 miles away.
I was rating the subway/els, not buses.
New York's buses are better than DC's in terms of service, but not clenliness, customer service, and the fact they won't accept dollar bills.
BTW: Overall, WMATA is great. Get over the lack of variety in buses.
That wasn't my point. Didn't you read anything anything I posted about Subways and the coverage of the subways and the commuter rail of NYC?
I never said the coverage in NYC is bad. Except for the East Side of Manhattan, NYC is pretty good. They even have trains to the Rockways! Now, all they need is lines to LGA and JFK!
The DC coverage is pretty good, too. Take out that bus map and see how many of your hated Orions there are feeding into the suburban Metro stations such as Bethesda, Silver Spring, and Shady Grove. It requires a bus, but you can get virtually anywhere except Dulles Airport without much of a hassle.
I never said the coverage in NYC is bad. Except for the East Side of Manhattan, NYC is pretty good.
That makes no sense. The east side of Manhattan is much more accessible than so many New York neighborhoods.
"That makes no sense. The east side of Manhattan is much more accessible than so many New York neighborhoods."
Wrong Pork. It makes a lot of sense. Manhattanites are much more subway dependent that people in the outer boroughs (esp neighborhoods with no rail service). This means that the density of subway service on the East Side of Manhattan is clearly inadequate for the area. It might not be inadequate if you built it today in a neighborhood that has never seen a train.
WMATAGMOAGH said that New York is very accessible except for the East Side of Manhattan.
I was taking incident to that, as if the East Side is the only part of New York with no subway service. He could have said that most of New York is accessible, and parts of it aren't, MOST NOTABLY the East Side of Manhattan.
New York's buses are better than DC's in terms of service, but not clenliness, customer service, and the fact they won't accept dollar bills.
Nobody should accept dollar bills, they should be eliminated.
Everyone should accept dollar bills. Who goes around carrying $1.50 in change? It's much more convenient to carry some bills at least than carrying a total amount of change. I know you may be thinking, "Then they should just get tokens." Well, not everyone has the time to get tokens, and for tourists, they may not know exactly where to get them. When I first heard that they didn't accept bills at all, I was surprised and couldn't believe they actually ran on that foolish idea.
Accepting bills would probably slow things down quite a bit.
Arti
"Accepting bills would probably slow things down quite a bit."
Perhaps. But the real reason why MTA NYC Transit doesn't accept bills is because vacuum hoses are used to scoop change out of fareboxes, and dollar bills would be shredded.
I think he means that the dollar bills themselves should be eliminated and replaced by a coin like the majority of countries with a similar monetary system.
Pork, I agree with you, but it can be a big pain in the ass to have a pocket full of heavy change instead of some wrapped bills. If you've been to Canada, then you know what I'm saying.
Pork, I agree with you, but it can be a big pain in the ass to have a pocket full of heavy change instead of some wrapped bills. If you've been to Canada, then you know what I'm saying.
There's no reason to have more change than the next highest available bill.
Translation: If you carry more than $5 worth of change, you should spend change more often.
I don't know if you ever spend money, but even after after something as simple as a trip home I've gone from a 20 to a large pile of ones. The principle is simple. Most people will only spend a 20 if they need to buy something over 10 (you start w/ no ones). Next, you have to buy something that's just over 5, so you usually whip out the the 10 you have. By the end of the day you have a huge wad of ones and a pocket full of change. At least the ones don't jingle.
True, but if you're not used to having $1 and $2 coins, you get a rock pocket like I usually do.
I mean how many people (in the US anyway) when they see that their items cost $4.25 go right for the change pocket? Of course one would get used to it when it's been forced on him by the govt.
Of course one would get used to it when it's been forced on him by the govt.
Americans have really idiotic ideas about freedom. Being forced to use a new coin because your favorite bill has been removed from circulation is a violation of our civil liberties. Yet when the government goes around and violates the First Amendment left and right, that's not a bad thing.
Religious organizations help people
People shouldn't be allowed to say THAT on the air
And so on.
The new dollar coin isn't too bad - it's immediately recognizable, unlike its predecessor. My wife and I travel to Canada frequently enough to have gotten accustomed to their loonie and twoonie - makes a lot more sense, from my perspective. Toll takers between NJ and DC also seem to like them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Dollar coins are a Government issued transit token that is good for $1's worth of fare on any transit system, road or bridge.
Or coke machine. I once heard that the vending industry likes the coins because it feels like you're spending less for your beverage when using coins.
Yes! When I was in France I didn't think much of anything about getting machine sodas. They only cost one coin. A 10 Franc coin. After a while I realized that I was spending 2$ a pop. Because coins in general have little value people will value them as such. Having to pull out and spend a bill really makes you think about how much you need that item.
Having to pull out and spend a bill really makes you think about how much you need that item.
Sometimes that causes people to reconsider taking the bus, and going to McDonald's instead.
>>> Because coins in general have little value people will value them as such <<<
That's true, but at some point the bills are too expensive to keep printing compared to their face value. A one dollar bill in circulation has a life of a few months, while a coin will last more than ten years.
When I was in Europe in 1959 you could still find one Deutch Mark bills (4.20 = $1.00), and one Lire Italian Notes (600 = $1.00) and old ten French Franc notes (60 = $1.00). Those governments were no longer printing those denominations because of the relative expense to face value.
Of course back then, the dollar was worth much more than it is now. With the subway fare only $0.15, and lunch about $0.60, you could feel comfortable leaving the house in the morning with just two one dollar bills in your pocket, and you remembered where and when you broke each one of them. Sooner or later, the one dollar bill will have to be replaced by a coin, or a devaluation where a new $1.00 bill = an old $10.00 bill as was done in Europe will have to take place.
Tom
A one dollar bill in circulation has a life of a few months, while a coin will last more than ten years.
The government cites 16 months (down from 18 a few years ago) for dollar bills; fives last 33 months. Quarters - used even more frequently than dollar coins, but the largest for which statistically significant figures are available - average 19 years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> Quarters - used even more frequently than dollar coins, but the largest for which statistically significant figures are available - average 19 years. <<<
This may increase since there is an artificial cutoff of coins at the upper end of the time scale due to the replacement of silver coins which caused the older coins to disappear from circulation within a few months.
Tom
The figure is an adjusted one, based on the number of coins minted in particular years vs. the number in circulation, so it probably won't change much (there were many, many more 1965 quarters minted - and almost none in 1967). If anything it might go down over the next few years, since a higher percentage of the state quarters will drop out of circulation relatively early in the cycle.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And the Bills lost all of them!
Everyone should accept dollar bills.
NO. NOBODY should accept dollar bills, not the bus, not a store, not the bank (well OK, the bank can accept them, just not dispense them), not ANYONE. The dollar bill should be eliminated.
So should the $5 bill, the $10 bill, the $20 bill, the $50 bill and the $100 bill. Paper money is a violation of the constitution as are subway tokens and any government accepting anything but cash.
You're an idiot stuck in the eigteenth century.
In 1787, 1 dollar was the equivalent of about $500 today.
Then the constitution should be amended not broken.
The constitution is a guideline, that's why it's one of the oldest guidelines for government in the world.
If it had to be amended several hundred times, our country would get nowhere.
You should stop using your computer though, because the founding fathers didn't have any, and you bought it with money greater than 25 cents.
Well my unerstanding is that out of developed countries (not Türkie :-)) US has the lowest value paper mony, yes down with $1 bills!
Arti
Well my unerstanding is that out of developed countries (not Türkie :-)) US has the lowest value paper mony, yes down with $1 bills!
What's your definition of a "developed" country? I can think of at least one European nation that has paper currency lower in relative value (Spain - 100 pesetas, about 65¢ at current exchange) and there are probably others. Once the Euro starts circulating, of course, that will change, but for now...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Paper money is a sign of greater civilization.
Go spank yourself with a stack of 10 cent bills.
Somehow, putting a 10 cent bill on the tracks so the train can squash and deform it just doesn't seem like much fun.
Remember when this thread was about the trains that ran on those tracks?
Mark
Turkey is more developed than most "thrid world" countries, and a number of European countries too.
I know in Israel (also in that grey area), five Sheqel coins are now a reality, which are now worth about $1.50. I don't know whether there are 10 Sheqel coins yet(You know you need tokens to use the public phones there?)
:-) Andrew
Are you people kidding me? The dollar bill is so common for people to have in their pockets. If it was all coins, do you know the weight that would be involved? If you pay for an item that's about 6 dollars and you pay with a 10 dollar bill, then you have 4 heavy coins. Plus, it seems like you always need a dollar change wherever you go. Would you like to carry around all those pennies, nickels, dimes, quarters, and now dollar coins? Gee, that would get weighty.
If you pay for an item that's about 6 dollars and you pay with a 10 dollar bill, then you have 4 heavy coins.
Earlier in the thread it was mentioned that the two dollar bill should be revived when the one is replaced by a coin. Then you'd get 2 two's for change in your example.
BTW, when the New Hope and Ivyland railroad resumed service several years ago, they gave out two dollar bills in change whenever they could. They asked the customers to spend them locally (if they spent any money locally) so area merchants would be favorably impressed by the economic impact of the smelly dirty railroad.
the dollar bill is ilegal.
How is the dollar bill illegial? It isn't where I am.
The man is not just a strict constructionist* but he's a crazy one at that.
*These are the kinds of people who, if the Constitution of the United States told them to jump off of a bridge, they'd do it.
the dollar bill is ilegal.
Tell me where in the Constitution it says that the government can't issue fiat money? And since coins are made out of worthless materials like zinc, copper and nickel, they're also fiat money.
Since everything that you learn comes from Libertarian Party propoganda, and not the actual Constitution, I guess I should enlighten you:
Article I, Section 8, Clause 5: "To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;"
The fact that the coin is produced in a paper-like material and is rectangular in shape is meaningless and irrelevant. If your Looneytarian mind still fails to comprehend such a simple concept, the Constitution (Art I, Sec8 Cl2) also allows the United States to borrow on the credit of the United States, therefore a Dollar is merely a certificate of coin value from the Federal Reserve. The only problem is that nobody bothers to cash it.
I do know that the Fed stopped accepting exchanges for gold in 1972, but a gold standard is useless. If anything we should use a raw material that's much more important to the modern economy, like iron, petroleum or silicon, but the Constitution does not require the use of any material standard ON THE FEDERAL LEVEL. It does restrict states from making any money whatsoever in Article I, Section 10, Clause 1 and in the same clause from making anything but gold and silver (useless and more useless) a legal tender, but this restriction applies to STATES ONLY. Madison did write about the pestilence of paper money in Federalist Paper #44, but this referred entirely to the power of states to create money, not of the federation.
Pork,
You wrote an outstanding argument there. My compliments. Do you have any interest in attending law school?
Yur comments about gold are especially well-taken. It's a useful metal (malleable, conducts electricity well, and you can even use it in injectable form to treat patients). But esp. rare it's not. And mining it involves environmental costs (current methods use cyanide to leach it out of its ore).
I don't know if you saw a recent 60 Minutes show about DeBeers, but the program was interesting in that it pointed out, correctly in this case, that the price of a diamond is far above what it would be in a truly open market. Diamonds are pretty, 'tis true, but (I'm told) rubies and emeralds are actually rarer. Diamonds are useful in industry (diamond-tipped drills). But the price comes from a the influence of a controlling cartel and lots of advertising and cultural influences.
You wrote an outstanding argument there. My compliments. Do you have any interest in attending law school?
Probably not. I think that was my best researched post since I actually searched the Federalist Papers (at loc.gov) for "paper money."
I had never read them before, but I realized that a lot of strict constructionists work on intent of the writers in their constitutional interpretations.
(malleable, conducts electricity well, and you can even use it in injectable form to treat patients).
I know about the conductance (silver is an even better conductor, but it rusts), but I had never heard of its medicinal use! What kind of treatment would one use it for?
I know about the conductance (silver is an even better conductor, but it rusts), but I had never heard of its medicinal use! What kind of treatment would one use it for?
Rheumatoid arthritis.
There is a good side to DeBeers. They have a standing commitment to keep the market price of raw diamonds at a reasonable leven. Several years ago diamond demand fell, but DeBeers kept buying at their current level, loosing money, but shoring up the mines.
Anyway, man made diamonds that can't be differentiated from natural diamonds are comming on the market. They will mark the end of DeBeers.
"Anyway, man made diamonds that can't be differentiated from natural diamonds are comming on the market. They will mark the end of DeBeers."
Artificial diamonds are already here. GE figured out a way to compress carbon into a diamond - a very impressive achievement. As to whether DeBeers becomes obsolete, well, only time and customer reaction will say for sure.
No, the artificial diamonds that GE has been making since the 50's and small and totally unfit for jewelery. It has only been recently that they have been able to produce artificial diamonds that are COMPLETE clones of real diamonds.
[Would you like to carry around all those pennies, nickels, dimes, quarters, and now dollar coins? Gee, that would get weighty. ]
Use credit cards wherever possible.
Use coins first when paying cash.
Arti
I always spend coins whenever possible.
If I have to pay $5.39, and all I have is tens and twenties and change, I pay $10.39.
[If I have to pay $5.39, and all I have is tens and twenties and change, I pay $10.39. ]
Same here.
Arti
I would just love carrying around 1.50 in change if I was an ignorant tourists. I know people who thought they could use bills on the bus and had to search for change.
Until they make the dollar coin popular, which I doubt will EVER happe, forget it.
Until they make the dollar coin popular, which I doubt will EVER happe, forget it.
All that has to be done is to eliminate the dollar bill, and beef up circulation of the $2 bill. It worked in Canada.
But I shouldn't expect something like that from a country that doesn't even use the Metric system (which is something that won't happen anytime soon).
Do we still print $2 bills? I thought we did, but when I attempted to get money from the bank in that denomination, they claimed they were no longer being printed.
Because they aren't printed. I think they were last printed in 1976 for the bicentennial.
That may be, but they are still in circulation. When I went to the Strasburg RR in Amish country some years back, the gave change for the $3 admission charge in a $2 bill if you paid $5.
But what are your chances of walking into a store that gives them? Very unlikely.
>>> I think they were last printed in 1976 <<<
I received a $2.00 bill in change within the past three months, but do not remember where. I got the impression that the place was using them to show their impact on the community. The bill was in good condition, but I did not check to see how old it was.
Tom
They continue to be printed today, in relatively small quantities. The "series" indicator on the bill is not an indication of when it was printed. I don't recall exactly what it signifies, however, although I do know that the series changes coincident with a change in signatures on the bills - but those are simply an indication of when the plate was engraved. And there has been at least one series indicator change since 1976 on the $2 bill - 1993, IIRC, although I don't have any handy at the moment to check. I inquired a while back about getting some from my credit union; seems they have to order them in quantities of 1000 bills ($2000) and they don't want to stock them, so if I want the CU to order them I have to get A LOT. The branch in my building saves any that come in for me, though (they even call me when they come in). They can still order Eisenhower dollars too, again on the same basis - 1000 coins - but I'd have to take the whole batch.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My aunt recently sent me a $2 bill dated 1995, IIRC. If the government were to discontinue the $1 bill and heavily promote the dollar coin, chances are the $2 bill would circulate more.
The $2 bills are still printed (IMO). The other day I had passed by a token clerk who had 2 two dollar bills in his window. So I bought them from him. They were brand new! New as in crispy, not a wrinkle and straight off the presses. They said that they were series 1976.
IMO the mint still prints them occasionally but they leave the series number alone.
>>> They were brand new! New as in crispy, not a wrinkle and straight off the presses. They said that they were series 1976. <<<
Those notes could be 25 years old, but never circulated. Several years ago I received two $20.00 United States Gold Certificates from a bank in a relatively small town in Mexico. They were in excellent condition, and must have been siting in the bank's vault since the ‘30s.
Tom
But if the government is serious about getting the $1 coins into general acceptance, then they need to start printing new $2 bills to give people the option of carrying some sort of paper money in a denomination below $5. Reviving the $2 while phasing out the $1 bill wouldn't save as much money as the government originally hoped for when they decided to try to dollar coin again, but it would be a way to ease the transition and make it more palitable to the general public.
That's what they did in Canada. Eventually the $2 bill was replaced itself with a coin.
The Euro (which originally was supposed to be larger than a US Dollar) is to have €1 and €2 coins and the bills will start at €5 and go up to €500, which is what we should have in the United States.
The 500 Euro bill is a BIG mistake. Its only applications will be in crime, drugs and money laundering. This seat is currently held by the USA $100 (its the most value per weight), but the 500 Euro note will ease carring large amounts of untraceable money about by a factor of 5. Having your currency be the currency of choice of Drug cartels is not something the EU should be gunning for.
[The 500 Euro bill is a BIG mistake. Its only applications will be in crime, drugs and money laundering. ]
Europeans don't use credit cards that much as in US.
[This seat is currently held by the USA $100 (its the most value per weight), ]
Untrue! There's DM1000 for example.
Arti
I suspected they were still being printed, esp. since I have a catalog which sells them in uncut sheets for slightly more than they're worth. I would never pay for money, though. It would be like giving someone a dollar for a bicentennial half dollar, not worth it.
When we get dollar coins, $2 bills, etc. we put them in the window in hopes of someone buying them from us. If that fails, or until they are bought we try to push them out to a customer. Example: they give me a $56 and want two tokens, I give them the tokens and two dollar coins and say "these are dollars not quarters--notice the lady (Susan) or the Indian (Gold Dollars)."
We hate the SBA (Susan B ANthony) because they are mistaken for wuarters and I have pushed them out thinking they were quarters- yes, I jad to pay for that!
I'm still looking for a 1999-P SBA dollar to complete my collection. I've got all the others.
Common as worms in springtime out here... got two from the MVM on Saturday. Spent 'em at the Transit Museum Gift Shop in Grand Central. 'Course, I haven't seen a 1999-D :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Have the 1999-D (only one, though). Maybe we can pull a Monty Hall on a 1999-P.:-) Needless to say, all we ever get out here are coins struck here in town. Imagine that!
They do print them occasionally...I have seen series in 1993 and 1996...but they could still be printed now because the series does not change every year. But they are not printed really for general use, more for nostalgic purposes I think. Notice how they keep the original design from 1976; all other bills have had a re-do two times since then in order to prevent counterfeiting -Nick
>>> Notice how they keep the original design from 1976; all other bills have had a re-do two times since then in order to prevent counterfeiting <<<
What changes were made to the $1.00 bill since 1976 and when were they made? They must be subtle because I have not noticed them.
Tom
What changes were made to the $1.00 bill since 1976 and when were they made? They must be subtle because I have not noticed them.
None. The dollar bill was last changed in 1963. Although a new design has been developed, it will probably never be used since (1) the vending machine people have a powerful lobby and (2) the bill will be phased out soon anyway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The US Treasury states that $2 bills are still in circulation and printed, and should be available at most commercial banks (or something along those lines). Look in the FAQ section of their web site.
They also have somewhere in the site a listing of how many bills were printed in each denomination for the past 20 years. About 51 million $2s in '96 and 107 million in '97. The chart ends there, and from 1980 to 1995 they printed none.
I drive a transit bus out here in California, and I see PLENTY of $2.00 bills being used for fare payment....I dunno whee the customers are getting them. (Maybe they're printing their own, who knows....)
I wonder if MVM's accept the $2 bill even though it isn't seen on the list of bills.
I dunno whee the customers are getting them.
racetrack
I wonder why they aren't in use that much. They certainly take up less space than an equal amount of singles.
Are 2 dollar bills accepted by MVMs?
Peace,
ANDEE
yes they are accepted by the MVMs
Thank You.
Peace,
ANDEE
All that has to be done is to eliminate the dollar bill, and beef up circulation of the $2 bill. It worked in Canada.
What $2 bill?!
I am guessing that you haven't been to Canada since 1996.
Canada no longer has a $2 bill in circulation; it was replaced with a $2 coin, which is really convenient to drop into a farebox when boarding a bus or streetcar or entering a subway station as the cash fare (for TTC) is $2. $5 is presently the lowest denomination bill in circulation.
-Robert King
And the Canadian $2 coin bears a strange resemblance to a Garden State Parkway token too...
Which also gives rise to a bad joke which we heard in Montréal this past summer: the $2 coin is the only place you will ever see the Queen with a "bare" behind.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes I have.
Regardless of how the currency works now (read the message I posted, after this one, but before I read yours), the $2 bill did re-enter circulation when the Loony was created, even though it itself was replaced.
It's great though. You have soda machines, none of which have to take any dollar bills. This must be heaven to all the people who have to maintain those idiosyncratic dollar bill acceptors.
The $2 bill never was withdrawn from circulation when the $1 coin was created. It actually remained in circulation continuously untill 1996 when it was phased out. I know this because I also have collected coins since about 1986.
$1 and $2 coins are also great for those machines at parking lots where you have to buy a ticket and stick it in your window. As I mentioned earlier, the $1 or $2 coins make the cash fare on the TTC very easy compared to useing 8 quarters or shoving two $1 bills or one $2 bill into the fare box. If they ever get electronic fareboxes, the $1 and $2 coins will make those much more compact and easy to use (no crumpled but legitimate bills being rejected etc...)
I saw parking meters in Toronto that take ATM cards. No need for coins or bills, or even Canadian money. The UN is right: Canada is the best country in the world.
As I mentioned earlier, the $1 or $2 coins make the cash fare on the TTC very easy compared to useing 8 quarters or shoving two $1 bills or one $2 bill into the fare box.
Yeah, it gives them a great incentive to RAISE THE FARE TO AN UNBELIEVEABLY HIGH LEVEL! Devaluating currency makces goods more expensive.
>>> Devaluating currency makces goods more expensive. <<<
You've got things backward, Mike. Inflation leads to higher prices which leads to devaluation of currency. Whether you like it or not what cost $1.00 fifty years ago now costs $10.00. Today's dollar bill buys what a dime bought then. No one fifty years ago thought it was necessary to have paper dimes.
Tom
and lets not forget the exchange rate, Mike...
The UNBELIEVEABLY HIGH LEVEL of CAN$2.00 is only US$1.30124*. Pretty cheap, when you think about it...
*(2.25.2001 4.10PM ET from CNNFn)
...the $2 bill did re-enter circulation when the Loony was created...
It never went out of circulation. Unlike the US $2 bill, the Canadian $2 bill was in common use. Back in the late '80s I purchased a used cash register with what was described as a "Canadian drawer" - it was an extra-tall drawer with a standard-height insert that had five slots labelled (left to right) $20, $10, $5, $2, and $1, and four coin cups (25¢, 10¢, 5¢, and 1¢). Larger bills, checks, and credit card slips would be put below the coin insert via a slot in the front of the drawer. We didn't end up using it ourselves at the shop (it was electronic and my business partner didn't like it) but I thought it was rather neat, as did the shoe store owner next door; he thought it a definite improvement over his old adding-machine style register.
One other thing that our neighbors to the north (like many other countries) have done is distinguish their currency by color. Dollar bills were a medium green, $2 were pink, $5 is blue, $10 is lavender, $20 is light green, and the $50 and $100 are red and brown, respectively (or is it the other way around? I don't remember for sure).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The United States Dollar is the world's most sought-after currency, yet in physical form (as opposed to electronic and check), it's probably the crappiest
Tradition says American money has to be green. The greatest thing about tradition is breaking it. Fat chance convincing the sheep of that.
What do you think of the new $5, $10, $20, $50 and $100 bills. I don't think that they're particularly attractive. I would try a different color for each denomination for easier identification.
BMTJeff
Yes. The new money is crap. Canadian bills look very attractive.
The new money looks OK, except for all the empty space. They need to fill it with some scrollwork. Colours are for wussy gay counteries.
I agree with about the empty space that they can fill it with some nice scrollwork but I don't agree with you about the different colors. Many countries use different colors for different denominations so that they are easy to differentiate between them. It might not help the color blind however.
BMTJeff
It might not help the color blind however.
It's not like it'll be the only way to differentiate money, nobody wants to make all traffic lights white, so they would only be differentiated by position.
I'm only suggesting different colors for each denomination so that it would help the majority of people differentiate each denomination of paper currency easily. Large easy to read numerals can also be used to halp differentiate between the different denominations. I like the different colors because it would be nearly impossible to make a mistake when handling more than one denomination at the same time. Most people who are color blind have enough color vision so that they would be able to make use of a color system of identifying the various denominations of paper currency. Those who are totally color blind couldn't use the color system at all and would have to resort to using another system of identifying the various denominations and this is where large easy to read numerals can come in handy. You can also use a different scrollwork design for each denomiation so that those who are totally color blind so that they can differentiate between each denomination of paper currency.
BMTJeff
That depends on how colourblind the person is. I, for example, don't find colour coding things useful much at all, and, in cases where it is the only way to differentiate between several things, it is a majour inconvenience at best.
If you read my post I also suggested using large numerals and distinctive designs for each denomination so that the color blind can easily differentiate between the different denominations.
BMTJeff
First of all, I wouldn't have written a reply to your post if I hadn't read it in the first place.
Your suggestion is fine. In fact, it doesn't matter how big or small the numbers are as long as they are there and readable. I was just pointing out that the usefulness of colourcoding things can drop in proportion with the increase in colourblindness.
It's not like it'll be the only way to differentiate money, nobody wants to make all traffic lights white, so they would only be differentiated by position.
I do! I do! Only the lights would be amber, not white, at large intersections.
You already said that position lights wouldn't work at intersections, when I said that position lights make more sense!
There would still be color under my plan (not serious, just fun):
- STOP
/ SLOW DOWN TO STOP (yellow light)
| GO
Would they work? Probably not. Would I like to see them? YES!
It somewhat helps the colourblind: $5, $10 vs. $20, $50, even though it doesn't preciesly identify each denomination exactly.
The new $20 isn't bad, ditto for the $50 and the front of the $100 (I like the large numeral on the back of the other bills). The new $10 is mediocre and the new $5 has this hideous portrait of Lincoln - now if we replace him with Jeff Davis it would be a vast improvement :-) But I do like the new dollar coin, or at least the side with the soaring eagle - that makes a majestic statement about our ideals.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think it's wrong to put our founding fathers on money, as they would not have liked it that way. Putting people on currency was a monarchic practice, not one of a democratic republic.
That's why I think they should have kept the Model T on the 10 dollar bill or at least updated it with a big honkin SUV. BTW a large mob or a voting machine on a bill looks stupid.
[That's why I think they should have kept the Model T on the 10 dollar bill ]
That's not Model T on the engraving.
Arti
Well, the design defies the use of fonts...
Arti
Ugly design!
Arti
I would try a different color for each denomination for easier identification.
A near %100 literacy rate makes colour coded bills unnecessary. We should take pride in the fact that we can read numbers. It also punishes devoloping nations that try to use our currency (like Equador) when their population can't read the denominations.
It also punishes devoloping nations that try to use our currency (like Equador) when their population can't read the denominations.
Mike, you've managed to put your foot in your mouth three times in the same sentence.
First, numbers are instantly recognizable - even if a person hasn't learned to read they recognize the numbers. The color scheme would be a benefit to me, since even with strong glasses and bifocals I can't tell the bills apart at a glance. With colors I could.
Second, having other small countries use our currency lends a measure of economic stability to their economy by linking its economy to ours - good for them, good for us, good for the world in general.
Third, you criticize others for their reading ability, but you misspelled Ecuador! (Not to mention your reversal of 100 and % in the prior sentence and your usage of the British spelling of color - fine if you're in Britain, but you're not.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This is a real problem, I read it in the NY Times. Poor spelling or not I don't need colours to tell the differance between a 10 and a 20.
Don't believe everything they write in Times.
Arti
But if it wasn't fit they wouldn't print it.
You might not need colors, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
Colors are just another element of design. Why even have different types of money? The government can save money by making the same bill with only the number different.
>>> The color scheme would be a benefit to me, since even with strong glasses and bifocals I
can't tell the bills apart at a glance. With colors I could. <<<
Don't forget the other advantage of different colors for different denominations; it keeps people with questionable morals like Jersey Mike from easily altering denominations from $1.00 to $10.00 or $10.00 to $100.00 (to test the recipient's system of recognizing the denomination of the bill).
Tom
Technically, our currency is color coded - just not for the general public. The security thread on each bill glows a different color under ultra-violet light. Granted, this is not what we are talking about, just commiting this to the Great Record ® for all of humanity
The only way to alter denominations to that it convinces people with more than 1/4 of a brain is to bleach the whole thing and then re-print on it. Colours won't stop that.
The purpose of different colors would be to be able to ID a bill without having to look for numbers. Coins are designed so you only have to feel them to know what they are. Do you read the wording on a coin to see what denomination it is? That's why the Susan B Anthony dollor failed- it felt too much like a quarter.
I always look at the face and date to make sure I'm not spending a valuable coin. The SBA was a field intelligence exercise. Stupid people were fined 75 cents for failing. Forcing people to think more in NEVER a bad thing.
Forcing people to think more in NEVER a bad thing.
Yes it is. It's much better to spend your time thinking about more important, complicated matters than wasting time trying to distinguish coins.
Simple exercises are usually the best. Look at jogging, weight lifting, situps, pushups, etc. I play and win a set of windows card games as a simple mental exercise.
Those tasks do not interfere with anything else. If you screw up playing Solitaire, you just open the Game menu and click Deal. If you screw up counting money, you could lose money. There's no need to needlessly link a lot of activities, screw up one, screw up another. Like a math test where the questions are based on the answers to prior questions, screw up one place, screw up everywhere.
The new money sucks. They all have the same, uncreative design so you have to take time to see what bills you have. Different colors would be a lot better. I would start with $1 being green, and continue down the spectrum with blue, purple, red, orange, and yellow. Brazil's Real (pronouced Ree-Al) bills are different colors with nice, large numbers on them. I think that the Euro has different sizes for their bills, from small up to large. That's another good idea.
Sorry, but the subject line on this thread should have been changed a long time ago. I don't care about off-topic threads, but I prefer the subject line indicates it.
I think SEPTA would be a great system if:
1)It lowered it's fares
2)Hired more polite, WORKING employees
3)Expanded rail service in the city...if that were possible.
However, I feel I must point out one exceptional SEPTA employee. I don't know if any of you have had the pleasure of riding Block 88 of the MFL at about 5:35pm from 15th Street, but he is very polite, tells riders the time and ETA to 69th St as well as some "inspirational messages" and thanks you for riding SEPTA and wishes us a good evening. SEPTA would be the greatest system in the world with more TO's like him.
Hired more polite, WORKING employees
Or fired them and replaced them with machines.
Do you really have to blame the TA for hiring those workers? Maybe they are just qualified every other way. I have an orchestra teacher who is really annoying, but should they fire her although she might be a "good" instructor?
No. All I meant is that more jobs should be automated.
Actually, a lot of jobs have been automated, but the employees are still there, with nothing to do but nap. (i.e. token booth clerks)
It's all because of the unions.
Unions have done squat since World War II except for delay progress.
During my three brief visits to Philadelphia, I have found SEPTA employees to be pretty good on the whole.
The first time I went in 1997, I left with the impression of SEPTA as a disorganized and bumbling association that has no clue and doesn't care, based on a couple bad experiences.
The last two times I went (Sept 2000 and Jan 2001), I have had much better luck with SEPTA in geneneral, and SEPTA employees as well.
A trolley operator, a trackless trolley operator and an el operator all went out of their way to answer my questions about the system and the city when they saw my camera. The trolley operator even stopped the car in several places so I could get pictures where I wanted and then let me back on.
That showed me that there are people who care about the system and the city. I have not had similar experiences elsewhere.
This is all the more amazing considering that the trolley and trackless trolley routes run through some pretty tough neighbourhoods. I'm sure being an operator in Philly is not all sunshine and lollipops.
I myself have had a couple of brief experiences with SEPTA with my father, mostly Regional Rail (Trenton-Center City), and a couple of buses. Nothing outstanding, but nothing that left me with a negative impression. The RR conductors seemed to be pretty friendly, but the trains were a little shabby. And one bus driver whistled some cheesy tune the whole time. A bit annoying, but I'd rather have that than a nasty driver who drives like a maniac and grunts and barks.
My first SEPTA experience was in 1993 (I was 10), when we took NJ Transit to Trenton to connect with SEPTA. The NJT train was an unrefurbished Arrow III (we were in a car with the soothing green/blue/green seats -I LOVED those!) but there must have been some kind of track work going on because I swear we never went past a crawl. We arrived in Trenton so late that we missed the scheduled SEPTA connection and had to wait over 30 minutes for the next one.
That didn't fly too well with my old man, but he's the adventerous type so he recovered quickly.
Thank God he's adventurous! He's the one who turned me into a transit nut!
Then maybe they only come out for the visitors. My experiences with SEPTA and photos have ranged from being yelled at to being accused of sabotage/spying.
I saw the Sperry railcar (aka SRS 403) over on the far side of Canarsie Yard this morning. This was unusual as the car has its "home" at Coney Island Yards.
I was told that it was used after new track was laid over by Atlantic Avenue.
Hopefully, I'll be able to take pictures of it in the next couple of days.
Gee, I wonder if they could run the Railbus over the Bay Ridge Line? What a riot that would be..... Take the (Rail)Bus to Canarsie.
-Stef
Bad news: it's already missing from Canarsie!
I guess CI needed it back.
[Gee, I wonder if they could run the Railbus over the Bay Ridge Line?]
Sure can since it runs on diesel fuel. And that might have been the route it took to get from Coney to the Eastern Division.
BMTman
Is it FRA certified?
Might need a waver.
I'll let you do the homework on that one since I know you like to delve into rulebook matters...;-)
BMTman
I sure wish the Whitestone branch of the LIRR still existed today as a branch of the 7 line.
It could have a stop right by the Pathmark on Farrington, which will come in handy if you want a Frostee and you happen to live, shop, or work in Flushing. Our "friends" at Wendy's want to make life harder on us you see
"We still have faith and enthusiasm for the Flushing community," said Wendy’s Denny Lynch. "But opening again in the area
does not appear to be possible at this time."
Even in a different location, this stupid company still can't come back. Main rule of business-
demand+busy area=lots of cash
Unfortunately those at Wendy's corp. still don't know this equation.
But getting back to the topic of the post, where exactly did the LIRR Whitestone branch run, and are there any pictures of it?
BTW, the Wendy's article is at www.queenstribune.com
I tried the www.lirrhistory.org site but no Whitestone branch info was there.
Anybody have an idea as to where the tracks ran??
Would've made a good subway extension, Whitestone and College Point could really use the access.
7-Times Square/Flushing Main street
8-Times Square/College Point Blvd
Even though Bayside has an LIRR station, Whitestone and College Point are kind of isolated transit-wise.
...which will come in handy if you want a Frostee and you happen to live, shop, or work in Flushing. Our "friends" at Wendy's want to make life harder on us you see.
Just stop your bellyaching and buy a frosty machine.
I sure wish the Whitestone branch of the LIRR still existed today as a branch of the 7 line. It could have a stop right by the Pathmark on Farrington,...
It was the extension of the Corona Line into Flushing in 1928 that doomed the Whitestone Branch. The other problem with the Whitestone Branch is that terminated at LIC rather than Penn Station even though it was electrified in the late 1920's. Finally, the next stop after Bridge St was College Pt.
I believe part of what is now the Belt Parkway was part of the ROW and some of the Van Wyck Extension from Roosevelt Ave north towards the Bridge.
avid
An oddity of the Whitestone was that the third rail was under the station platforms on the near side. Watch the gap!
A single track of the Whitestone survives, trailing NE from the PW branch just east of the Shea Stadium platform. It was used for train storage as recently as the early 1970s.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The depressed section of the Cross Island between 149th and 150th Streets was part of the ROW. The cut was retained from the 1928 discontinuation of the branch till the 1940 construction of the parkway. The line then turned due north running west of what is now 154th Street. Some old-timers say the Whitestone Shopping Center was built on the ROW.
Trackage can be seen very faintly through the brush where it goes under the Roosevelt Avenue Bridge between Shea and the Van Wyck.
There's very little other evidence of the line, although some street patterns in College Point and Whitestone (dead ends, extra long blocks) give a good indication of where it was.
Low ridership also contributed to this line's demise. Large parts of Whitestone and College Point were settled by the twenties, but they were very heavy industrialized and blue-collar working class (the Point still is to a lesser extent), so much of the local populace worked in the neighborhood factories rather than commuting into Manhattan.
Having grown up in Whitestone, I often wished the service still existed. It would have been more expensive, but a big improvement over the long, torturous waits for the bus to and from the Flushing subway. On weekends it could take an hour and a half to get home from Midtown!
[Low ridership also contributed to this line's demise.]
That's because they didn't have Frostees yet!!
You're a sick man, RICO ...LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah maybe Wendy's could set up a museum operation of a trolley line down to Wendy's in Whitestone! :-)
It would be nice to have it. If East Side Access is accomplished, LIRR service into Manhattan can get a lot better-and we can contemplate additional services.
It's too bad the TA didn't commission the ROW and hook it up to the Flushing line to create another subway extension in the style of the Dyre and Rockaway lines.
Yeah, weekends must be bad up in College Point with all the reduced bus service and no 7 express.
That old ROW, as well as the abandoned part of the Rockaway ROW, should be planned for future use, they would prove to be valuable rail connections.
[That old ROW, as well as the abandoned part of the Rockaway ROW, should be planned for future use, they would prove to be valuable rail connections. ]
Isn't the Whitestone ROW virtually gone?
Arti
Maps are hard to find with the Whitestone branch.
Any books with the old Whitestone branch in it?
Check out "Steel Rails to the Sunrise" by Ron Ziel and George Foster.
They have a map of the Whitestone Branch, and other tidbits about the LIRR from its heyday.
[Maps are hard to find with the Whitestone branch.]
Check out this 1906 map from Newsday's Long Island History website.
Here's an earlier one from 1873 from my LIRR History Website.
Thanks. Looks like it goes right down to the water.
Wow! Wish we had a line like that now...
I would have a branch of the IRT Flushing line run to College Point then cross the East River into the Bronx and connect with the White Plains Road IRT line at E. 180th Street. Then another branch can run to Whitestone and Beechhurst or Bayside in Queens. It can also perhaps loop back to Flushing after leaving Bayside along Northern Blvd. Imagine a Northeast Queens subway loop.
BMTJeff
I walked that alignment a couple of years back. Hoping for a Rockaway-like experience. Expecting more of a faint echo, like the Central RR of Long Island. Sadly, nothing. The right of way is LONG gone. Only the slightest hints of where it once was, except at the western end.
Speaking of, Hunter College has an exhibit on the new incredibly detailed NYC "virtual" map that has been lovingly created the past few years, and is supposed to be online soon. On one wall is one aspect of that effort: an enormous aerial photomontage of the entire City. Remarkable. Many transit features are noticable, with a large linear park, aka Rockaway Branch, a particular standout in lush green. [68th and Lex; Mon-Sat 1-6p; thru March 17.}
I definitely recommend that anyone interested in the physical city should go to this exhibit. It's not a lot (hence, won't take up much of your time), but it's a really cool project. And the first few cars of a 7 train are visible pulling into the Willets Point Blvd station in the blowup of Shea Stadium :).
Too bad that the Right Of Way of the LIRR Whitestone Branch is all but gone except for a few fragments. If it was maintained it would have been great for a rapid transit line but sad to say most of the Right Of Way appears to be gone.
BMTJeff
I recall reading that the Whitestone Branch ran from just beyond Shea Stadium along Willets Point Blvd., Whitestone Expwy, and Willets Point again. I don't know where the terminus was.
Willet's Point Boulevard followed that part of the Whitestone Expressway before the Whitestone Parkway (that was what it was called) was built.
And Willet's Point Boulevard followed the Cross Island Parkway ROW to Willet's Point, exit 32 off the CI Parkway, not the area near Shea Stadium.
What you say is true, but Willets also extended south from current Whitestone Expwy to Shea Stadium. Several blocks of the blvd. are still there, and that's why the #7 stop is called Willets Point.
Several blocks of the blvd. are still there, and that's why the #7 stop is called Willets Point.
That makes it the only station in New York City not named for a neighborhood with the street type officialy dropped from the name.
The name should be Willet's Point BOULEVARD-Shea Stadium.
You're right about that -- especially since Willets Point -- the geographical feature -- is several miles away to the northeast. The error is compounded because you can no longer get to Willets Point from the vestigial stretch of Willets Point Blvd. near Shea Stadium.
Right; Willets Point is within Fort Totten in Bayside, more than five miles away from its subway station. The main stretch of the Boulevard is between Union St and Utopia Pkwy; east of that, I believe the name resides with the eastbound service road of the Cross Island; it's original path is no more.
What you say is true, but Willets also extended south from current Whitestone Expwy to Shea Stadium. Several blocks of the blvd. are still there, and that's why the #7 stop is called Willets Point.
That would've taken it very close to the Whitestone shopping center. I wonder if any rails remain. The area though isn't the kind you'd want to walk around all day looking railroad remains, well, alone that is.
Has anyone made sense of the current #2 advisory, on display in (at least) Court St/Borough Hall? It states that: #2 trains will run over #4 lines to Wall Street, then normally from Chambers Street.
There is no mention of split service.
Please tell me if there are tracks I have missed in the map that makes such a service possible.
It'll probably reverse direction at Wall St, then loop around South Ferry.
I've heard of trains reversing direction while in service during GO's and reroutings, but have never experienced it firsthand. Would surely like to, though!
It's a DANDY of a G/O...
I was able to film the railfan window on a
G/O 2 redbird into South Ferry (r62a territory)
in September 2000... which looped around to
Wall Street via Inner Loop via Bowling Green.
The 2 will operate normaly to Atlantic then switch to 3 track and make all stops on the Lex line to Wall st., at Wall st. the operating crew will dump the train and another crew will take it south around South Ferry to Chambers and continue on it's normal route
I can tell you, having operated under this GO last week while working on the 2. It runs normal from Flatbush to Atlantic. It crosses over to the 4 at Nevins. It then stops at Nevins, Boro Hall, and Wall St. IT DOES NOT STOP AT BOWLING GREEN!!!! The T/O dumps the train at Wall. Then another crew takes over from Wall, reverse through BG/SF loop and Chambers St is the first stop. There is a shuttle from Fulton to Chambers. Bklyn bound service is normal.
In the past, the "looping 2 GO" has ALWAYS stopped at Bowling Green in one direction or the other. When the loop happened going southbound, it stopped after reversing at Wall St; when it happened going northbound, it stopped before arriving at Wall St. Since this particular GO doesn't run on Mondays ( when I work the Deuse), I haven't read it, but it should make the stop.
Why doesn't it turn around at Fulton, so people can connect to the A?
Theres a shuttle that runs from Fulton to Chambers.
Because the switch to reverse direction is between Wall St and Bowling Green.
Thanks!
I spoke to the dispatcher and he said that they used to do that but they stopped. I guess they do not want to hold up the 4 that is behind.
I spoke to the dispatcher and he said that they used to do that but they stopped. I guess they do not want to hold up the 4 that is behind.
During what hours will this take place? sounds interesting..
Well, that explains it. The only disappointment is that the train is dumped at Wall Street. I would love to take the Wall St->Bowling Green->Loop->West Side Local IRT->Chambers.
Well, that explains it. The only disappointment is that the train is dumped at Wall Street. I would love to take the Wall St->Bowling Green->Loop->West Side Local IRT->Chambers.
Hello all! I really had to deal with some bad transit workers today. This morning, I was on the D Train from Brooklyn to Manhattan, and the motorman stopped short of the station twice. After coming to a complete stop, he had to jerk the train forward slightly, almost causing the people getting ready to get off the train to fall down. Then, this evening, I took a Q Train home, and I was riding in the front car, and the conductor didn't even open the doors (at least, not the ones in the front cars) at Grand Street! And the motorman just took off, apparently without even noticing! This has happened to me several times in the past. How often do these kinds of things happen, and do the supervisors usually find out?
- Lyle Goldman
Well your better off stoping short than overshooting. If the train overshoots the C/O board, the C/O is supposed to pull the cord and call command and we say bye bye to the crew and your on the platform (well worse case).
Sometimes the first or last car on the slants the door doesn't open, has happen to me, doesn't happen THAT often. If the crew doesn't catch it (very hard to notice one of ten cars that is not open) you are SOL and miss your stop.
I wouldn't say what you experienced is INCOMPETENCE, just a new T/O and Old equipment.
The door problem on the R40 happens frequently enough. It seems to happen at Atlantic, where the doors open on the less used side. It has also happened at Grand more than once. I don't know if this observation is just coincidence.
When I pointed out the problem once to the C/O (this a month or two ago) the reaction I got was "What am I supposed to do about it. I didn't see it." It was just a nuisance to her.
Doors failing to open is a somewhat common problem. I'd think
that on the R40s the problem would occur in 2-car pairs, because
the reason for it is an open contact at the electric portion of
the coupler. There are two wires per train side that need to
both be energized for the doors on that side to open. If only one
of them is open-circuit, the guard light will come on but the doors
won't open. Therefore, the crew has little means of detecting
the problem except to observe passengers banging on doors.
If only one of them is open-circuit, the guard light will come on but the doors won't open.
That's an interesting design feature.
Your story reminds me of the time (about 4 yrs ago) whenn I was on the D train. We had pulled into 34th st and the doors didn't open,the train statred to pull out. I immediatly pulled the cord. I was NOT going to W4 st. When I spoke to a T/O freind of mine he said I did the right thing.
If The Dooors don't open at my stop, I"m puling the cord
Peace,
ANDEE
Hard to do that from the outside of the car though >G<....
Lyle, with an approximate time and a car number - preferably the lead car, the crew can be tracked down and checked for proficiency. I'm suprised that any subtalkers are still so unaware.
I know that, but are these things usually reported?
- Lyle Goldman
Lyle, some are and some aren't. It's your conscience. I do have more than a passing interest in the operation of the D line and would follow up.
The problem you had at Grand is not uncommon - I've seen it happen in the first car (while Brooklyn bound) and last (while Manhattan bound)car on several occasion. Usually, the red light inside the car neer the end that indicates that the door circuit is energized goes on, but the door just doesn't open - it seems that there is some problem with the circuitry that acts up at Grand due to some issue with the configuation of the station.
subfan
There is a problem at Grand Street - two problems to be exact. Going north, trains tend to lose power and going south, they have door trouble. Both are rare occurrences but they happen often enough that I can say that it's more than coincidence. It seems to have something to do with the rail grounding in the area.
Think they'll look into the problem and fix it while the station is being used for only limited service during the upcoming Manny B repairs?
Refresh my BL-26 memory, please. There is no distinct "G"
or "B-" pin, correct? All of the trainlines are single-ended
signals referenced to "ground", which is the chassis of the car,
which is also the rail. Both the battery circuits and the
traction current return through ground (but there are separate
heavy wires that carry the traction return from the group to
each truck connector, and shunts around the roller bearings
to keep the current from screwing them up).
If a train enters an area where there are broken bonds on the
return rail, and/or straddles a "flip" point where signal and
return rails change places with insulated joints AND the cross-
bonding is bad, then different potentials will result as the
600 going through either the traction circuits (very bad) or
the auxilliary loads such as HVAC, lighting and LVPS, tries
to get home to ground. The potential differences will equalize
to an extent because the cars have a metallic coupling to each
other, but that has a bit more resistance than a nice copper-to-copper
connection. This means a few volts ground difference can develop
along the length of the train, and since the trainlines are
referenced to ground, that can be enough to interfere with their
operation.
Is that a correct analysis?
The analysis seems to suit the circumstance. However, it doesn't have the same effect on every train. In fact, more than 99% of the trains have virtually no noticable degeneration in performance. We suspect that it's a similar situation to the one that you suggest coupled with a worn axle ground brush or broken shunt - things that rarely show up.
While we have recently had unconfirmed information that the R110A will be scrapped instead of being brought to R142A standards, I was pondering this question: Will they put the stainless-steel R110A in the River with the Redbirds, or use them for other purposes like classrooms, etc.? I'd imagine 1 car would end up in the Transit Museum. -Nick
Ever hear of a screw up like this? Got this off some discussion about Queens
"Most of us headed out to get the 10 o'clock train. Much discussion whether it was better to change to the subway at
Woodside or continue to Penn. Can't be more than 15 minutes to Penn we figured so we stayed on. What we didn't consider
was that after 9.30 LIRR hires clowns to operate their trains. As the train came to a halt in sight of Manhattan we listened to the
conversation over the speakers. "We're going to have to back up. We went through some red lights and we're on the wrong
track." Very reassuring. So we spent 20 minutes backing up listening to such gems as "I can't see anything. I guess we're OK."
It was 11 when we got to Penn. On on."
So what amusing LIRR or subway screw-ups have you ever seen?
I was on an LIRR train where the conductor was coaching the engineer into the stations. Over the PA.
I've been on Amtrak trains that have had real rough engine changes. If I'm in a bad mood, I'll ask the conductor how many beers the engineer had that day*
I was on an NJT train that broke 100 between Priceton Junction and Trenton. Being pushed by an ALP. In Notch 3. This causes the main breaker to open and a a happy dingaling bell to go off in the control cab at the other end, BTW.
This same train also had a power hicup around New Brunswick, which is quite interesting. Loco dropped out for a few secs then came on full power. *boom*
I was on a New Haven line train that popped a substation. Basically, you stop at the next platform, the crew walks the train to look for hang ups/dropped pans, etc, then they get a reset.
The Port Washington yard used to not have automatic switches, so occasionally, the train would stop, kick out a crewmember, and he'd go running around flipping switches.
Interesting thing I noticed on a rainy day trip home last friday - the front third rail shoe in the car was intermittant. It took me a while to realize what the funny noise I was hearing was....
Metro-North M-2s can do some spectacular arcing too, especially on icy/rainy nights. Sometimes this damages the pan - I once watched a crew poke and prod a damaged pan with a long pole to get it to retract.
*I have no mercy on Amtrak crews when we're late.
Maybe a tripper system should be installed for commuter trains...
They have one already. The engineer trips on the curb when they throw him out of the building.
I guess ASC doesn't automatically stop the train I guess when it ventures down the wrong track.
Once, the conductor opened the doors on the entire 12 car train at Forest Hills. During rush hour. I'm amazed no one fell out (or maybe they did...).
I heard a story where they opened up the doors on the wrong side at Penn station.
Were they on that LIAR gauntlet track?
What likely happened is that the tower operator dropped the ball on the train because of some blockage in the tunnel. It's not a common occurrence but it's not a rarity either. LIRR people can correct me if this is wrong but I'm told that a 'red light' infraction in AMTRAK territory will result in a lifetime ban for the LIRR engineer from operating into Penn Station.
Usually if ANY engineer passes a Stop And Stay signal its grounds for decertification. Blowing by a Stop and Proceed might just get you banned.
More on the STEINWAY OIL PIPELINE
Peace,
ANDEE
At least Chicago's underground flood in 1992 only involved river water. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
BMTMan might know the answer to this, I believe there is a natural gas pipeline that runs under the Bay Ridge line of NY&A.
Where does the oil that is removed from the tunnel finally wind up?
Is it recycled? refined? reused?
avid
That's an excellent question, The NY1 report(on air version) speculated that it was being dumped into the sewer system, a definite no-no.
Peace,
ANDEE
Refiners normally put some kind of chemical "tag" into their products to identify its source - at least they do in motor oils, gasoline, and home heating fuel. Perhaps by the time the oil enters the subway it's too contaminated to isolate the tag, but if not then they should be able to narrow the search somewhat (if it's Citgo #6, for instance, look for all businesses in the vicinity that have purchased Citgo #6 within the past year and check their tanks first).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not a pretty picture.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, I was at 5Av station when it happened. I was talking to the FDNY and then proceeded to GC to catch the R142A.
Hey Now! Nothing like a good story to get you going in the morning!!
I think you meant to say a good GORY STORY to get you going in the morning!!! peace, Thomas:)
Wow, that's pretty bad. I wonder how he could get hit and people would not even notice?
It's not entirely impossible that he was in the tunnel between stations.
Perhaps he was in the tunnel, I've never actually seen anybody other than track workers in the tunnel though.
But I guess some homeless people may live there though. Has anybody ever seen people living down there?
Those infamous "MOLE PEOPLE"!
Perhaps he fell from a train, and was crushed, and not hit in the tunnel.
-Hank
I'll hazard a guess that the poor guy fell between cars of a moving train.
Another reason I usually do not move between cars of a moving train.
And some people do even worse, they ride between cars. Last time I was on the E some drunk nut was riding between cars, and the train was moving fast.
One false step, and things turn tragic.
From the article:
They discounted earlier reports that the victim was struck in Queens and dragged all the way into Manhattan.
And people wonder how urban legends get started... I can see it now: "Did you hear about that incident back in 2001 where some guy's body was dragged under the #7 train back and forth all day between Flushing and Times Square?"
-- David
Chicago, IL
I believe that except for the 63rd Street East River crossing, all of the underwater tunnels were dug through the mud under the rivers, not through the rock. The 63rd Street tunnel was prefabricated and then sunken in a trench cut in the East River bed.
I can see cutting a two track tunnel with a single shield of reasonable size. If the east side IRT tunnel from 125th Street to 138th Street is four track, how did they do that? (I'm very familiar with the construction of the Lincoln and Queens Midtown Tunnels, and there each two lane roadway is a separate tunnel, although there are cross-overs at various places and common areas at the vent buildings.)
The PRR North River Crossing was dug partly through rock.
There's 2 ways:
1. Get a bigger tunnel shield.
2. use 2 different shields.
MBTA will give a round trip voucher to passengers whose ride arrives more than 30 minutes late.
"On Wednesday, Gov. Paul Cellucci plans to unveil a "Riders' Bill of Rights," which will take effect Thursday on all Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority subways, trolleys, buses, ferries and commuter trains which serve 1.2 million passengers daily."
Associated Press story.
Boston Globe story.
Is this because the Boston T (Green Line) is the slowest train on earth?
So Domino's Pizza is the first corporate sponsor the MBTA has taken on? :)
SO Will the MBTA Open up 10 Dominos pizza's?
Will this mean's that if you get stuck inside a subway tunnel and the trains can't move? Will? You will get Free Pizza from Domino's.
Oh boy how silly these people are today.
Dominick Bermudez.
Gentlepeople ...
The first of my series of documents on the history of the BRT/BMT for this site is now available. Early Rapid Transit in Brooklyn, 1878 to 1913 covers the development of the steam railroads and early elevated lines up to just prior to the Dual Contracts. It even has a brief description of Coney Island at the dawn of the steam lines. For you incline fans, both the Chestnut Street and Crescent Street inclines are discussed. (The closure of the Crescent Street incline didn't occur until after 1913, so the closure is not discussed in the article. Only its opening).
Comments and corrections welcome.
--Mark
Well written, indeed!
Is there any info as to why the Canal St. station on the Centre St. loop was built as it was, or did I miss something?
Mark, A splendid article which I read through last night! I only found one typo at the end of "The Brooklyn, Bath and Coney Island Railroad (The West End Line)" Last sentance took vs. tool.
Now for the comments portion of my remarks: I count about 33 different companies listed. Ones that were obviously BRT created names I didn't count.
- The Elevated lines were Brooklyn El (The Old Main Line), Union El, Myrtle Ave. El, Fulton St. El, Lexington Ave El & 5th Ave. El all seperate companies?
- You didn't mention Brooklyn City Railroad Co. an 1890s firm. Was it just one of the BRT companies like Brooklyn & Queens Suburban (the BRT trolley company after the BRT became BMT) ?
- How about New York Municipal Railway Co. I read somewhere that they ran in Brooklyn.
- Long Island Electric Railway, didn't that become Jamaica Central Railways, then Jamaica Bus Company ? Or was it Long Island Railways that became Jamaica Bus ? This would be in the mid to late 30s.
I have decided to add Norton's Point & Manhattan Beach to my subway maps for future reference.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston ... thank you! I'll correct the typo.
The Elevated lines were Brooklyn El (The Old Main Line), Union El, Myrtle Ave. El, Fulton St. El, Lexington Ave El & 5th Ave. El all seperate companies?
Most were immediately leased to the Brooklyn Union Elevated Railroad Company immediately upon opening, so from that standpoint, they really weren't seperate companies.
You didn't mention Brooklyn City Railroad Co. an 1890s firm. Was it just one of the BRT companies like Brooklyn & Queens Suburban (the BRT trolley company after the BRT became BMT) ?
I'll see what I can find out.
How about New York Municipal Railway Co. I read somewhere that they ran in Brooklyn.
The New York Municipal Railway Co was a BRT subsidiary set up to build their Dual Contracts lines. Since this occurred after the Dual Contracts were signed, I didn't include this in the first article. The next installment will cover that.
Long Island Electric Railway, didn't that become Jamaica Central Railways, then Jamaica Bus Company ? Or was it Long Island Railways that became Jamaica Bus ? This would be in the mid to late 30s.
I have no clue. Anyone else know?
--Mark
Most were immediately leased to the Brooklyn Union Elevated Railroad Company immediately upon opening, so
from that standpoint, they really weren't seperate companies.
I would have to locate a reference for you, but I'm pretty sure
the unification of the Brooklyn Union system was about 1898.
The Union Elevated, Kings County RR, NY&Brooklyn Bridge RR were
all quite separate companies for several years.
The BMT becomes important to me starting on June 22, 1915. Anybody know why? I guess I'm trying to quiz you folks out there.
You must be referring to BMT's first subway service into Queens!
No I'm not but a good guess anyway. Check my answer to Mark Feinman
Why, is June 22, 1915 your birthday?...
BMTman
Ha ha, your jokes are about as funny as your face. But I really think you did know the answer but would rather give me some smart ass remark. Was I right?
El Correcto.......take it easy...just busting ballz...;-)
BMTman
I guess I have to admit that I am a fanatic for the Sea Beach. I have always had strong feelings for things I care deeply about. I think you like being a ball buster, but if it all in fun, well no harm done. You pushed by buttons and got your desired effect. When you read about what I recently wrote about the Bronx, your friends up there might not be in such a flippant state.
Fourth avenue subway opened between Myrtle and 59th, Brooklyn. So like do I win a candy-coated Triplex? :)
You only got half of it right and the wrong half at that. The real answer is the first running of my Sea Beach.
Give him a chocolate-covered BMT standard.:-) After all, they made their debut on the 4th Ave. and Sea Beach lines.
What?!?! And you mean to tell me your beloved Sea Beach wasn't well represented enough in my first installment? :)
--Mark
Hey Mark, you win the prize. That was the day the Sea Beach first ran as a BMT Subway train. Even BMT Man missed it. I really thought a bunch of you guys would tell me to bug off and ask something really challenging but I guess I pulled it off. You're ok Mark.
The Sea Beach SUBWAY to 4th Ave on June 22nd, followed the opening of the BMT's subway service to Manhattan (Chambers Street) via the Manhattan bridge on June 15th.
Also in 1913 wooden cars reached Chambers St in Manhattan
So, Fred how far did the June 15th service go in Brooklyn .... did it make it onto the Sea Beach ?
How about 1917 ... what dark cloud fixes itself over the BRT ?
BTW, I got a chuckle out of the BMTman's little joke.
Mr t_:^)
So, Fred how far did the June 15th service go in Brooklyn .... did it make it onto the Sea Beach ?
Rats! I thought I had that info right at hand, but don't.
But you might be interested to know BMT Standards operated on the Sea Beach three months prior to that magic June date.
I was under the impression that the Sea Beach left the tunnel after 59th Street on June 22, 1915. If you watch carefully as the train enters the tunnel on its trip back into Manhattan you can see 1914 enscribed on the top of the tunnel entrance. So it would seem to reason that since the tunnel was completed the year before the train started running, it would probably be likely the train would be routed past 59th Street into the light of the beautiful Sea Beach day.
The 1914 is undoubtedly the date of completion of the portal, rather than operation.
Standards operated in passenger service between Bath Junction and Sea Beach Terminal beginning in March 1915.
[How about 1917 ... what dark cloud fixes itself over the BRT ?]
No guess Fred ?
The answer John F. Hylan becomes mayor of the City & that spelled a turning point for the BRT, as he went from having a hand on one of their Controllers to their throat.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, you're right. The leasing business of early elevated lines was quite confusing to decipher!
--Mark
If you want to get realy confused, try to figure out TARS (Third Ave. Railway System), e.g. 5th Ave, Steinway & many many were controlled by them at some point in time. It's amazing that Queens Surface & Jamaica survived the bus-substitution process, but TARS didn't.
Mr t__:^)
Great work, Mark!
You've covered alot of info for the website.
Thanks alot.
Makes for interesting reading, particularly those who are not already familiar with the history of the BRT.
BMTman
Thanks BMTman ... I'm going to be covering your namesake in the coming months, so forgive me if I, um, give all your secrets away :)
--Mark
In the Daily News today it states that constructing ONE pedestrian overpass over Queens Blvd. will cost $10 million. Huh? Even if you include elevators for the handicapped, how do costs run that high for a simple pedestrian overpass? There are a dozen or more of them on the LIE, Clearview, etc.
Would creating tunnels under the road at Queens Blvd's subway stops cost that much?
I also read that Kerik has ticket-blized jaywalkers on Queens Blvd. Pedestrians aren't the problem, Bernie...it's buses and cars.
www.forgotten-ny.com
pedesterian are half the problem, how many were hit crossing out of crosswalks???
So true. I bet a pedestrian does a lot more damage to a car than a car does to a locomotive.
Would creating tunnels under the road at Queens Blvd's subway stops cost that much?
All of the subway stations already do have underpasses.
I also read that Kerik has ticket-blized jaywalkers on Queens Blvd. Pedestrians aren't the problem, Bernie...it's buses and cars.
No. Pedestrians are the problem. Nearly every incident on the boulevard has involved a jaywalker. A miniscule amount of accidents were caused by red light running cars.
>>>Pedestrians are the problem. Nearly every incident on the boulevard has involved a jaywalker.<<<<
I disagree. The last two incidents I heard of involved pedestrians crossing with the light. In the latter case, a Holocaust survivor, crossing with the light, was not seen by a bus driver attempting a turn. I don't know what can be done about this problem.
Even if the majority of incidents involve jaywalkers, the penalty for jaywalking should not be death. When Queens Boulevard was constructed in the 1910s and 20s (I'm unsure of the exact date) the builders did not anticipate traffic whizzing along at 60MPH. I believe a major effort should be made to make things safe for pedestrians including a lower speed limit (I don't know what it is now) and much longer lights. The car is not king, despite Mr. Moses (who admittedly had no hand in the evolution of Queens Blvd.) or Mr. Giuliani, whose response to pedestrian/auto clashes in Midtown was to restrict pedestrians.
And, if tunnels do exist that cross Queens Blvd. at all subway stops, the MTA should make it possible for pedestrians to cross the street using them without entering the fare control area.
www.forgotten-ny.com
the speed limit was already reduced from 35 to 30, all the IND stations do have free underpasses, but most elderly people either won't go down into the subway or can't walk the stairs...
the speed limit was already reduced from 35 to 30, all the IND stations do have free underpasses, but most elderly people either won't go down into the subway or can't walk the stairs...
The city and state can probably get some federal funding under the Americans With Disabilities Act to construct elevators at each station. Obviously they would need four per station (two from fare control to the platforms and two to either side of Queens Blvd.) which would be one more elevator to the street than mandated under the ADA, but the total cost would still be under $10 million.
I believe a major effort should be made to make things safe for pedestrians including a lower speed limit (I don't know what it is now) and much longer lights.
If traffic is whizzing by at 60 MPH, how can lowering the speed limit help? It's already 30 MPH! I think that the matter of cars travelling quickly should be acknowledged and the speed limit should be raised to 45 MPH.
The ideal solution would be to build an elevated highway down Queens Boulevard from the Queensborough Bridge to the Van Wyck Expressway. This way the pedestrians would be walking beneath the roadway, and wouldn't need to climb any stairs.
>>>The ideal solution would be to build an elevated highway down Queens Boulevard from the
Queensborough Bridge to the Van Wyck Expressway. This way the pedestrians would be walking
beneath the roadway, and wouldn't need to climb any stairs. <<<
Els are nearly always an eyesore and impact badly on the neighborhoods where they are located. (See Caro, The Power Broker, on the impact the elevated BQE had on Sunset Park.) If you had the money (which you don't, so it's moot, and it'd be tough to build a tunnel under an el train) build a vehicular tunnel under QB from just past the Sunnyside Yards, surfacing to allow a connection with the LIE, re-tunneling and surfacing again to connect with the Van Wyck/Grand Central. Hey, why not speculate? They are Digging Big in Boston in the biggest money pit of all time.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Els are nearly always an eyesore and impact badly on the neighborhoods where they are located.
Els are as much of an eyesore as are high rise buildings. Just have an award winning architect design it, and the problem is solved.
It's not the eight of the building that makes it an eyesore; it's the absence of appropriate context. Every building should be set back from the street a distance at least equal to its height and have a nice piece of landscaping around it. (Yes, I know this is fantasy; but no more so than some of the transit ideas on this board.)
>>> Every building should be set back from the street a distance at least equal to its height and have a nice piece of landscaping around it <<<
In that case buildings like the World Trade Center and Empire State Building would need people movers to just to get the workers and visitors from the street to the building.
Tom
Such buildings exist: they're called suburban shopping malls.
Oh the horror! Elevated expressways are the worst creation since the automobile! (well, at least for us city folk)
>>> the penalty for jaywalking should not be death <<<
That is an easy statement to agree with, but death remains a very real risk associated with jaywalking, and the jaywalker readily assumes that risk.
Tom
One simple thing that could help is if the the subway stations ADVERTISE that they have pedestrian walkways. Just put up a sign, or add to the existing ones:
71-Continental Aves Station
(E)(F)(G)(R)
PEDESTRIAN UNDERPASS
Or something like that.
:-) Andrew
There should be more intermediate crossing sites. Not just at intersections where traffic crossing and making left and right turns adds to the moving obsticlesto be avoided.
When I was a small kid, back in the 50's , afriend of my older brothers was hit by a car at the intersection of Rockaway Blvd and Belt Parkway. At that time a signal light didn't exsist at that location.
The PTA, then called the Mothers Club and some churche organizations went to that location and continually crossed the streets for days during the small rush hour . The Long Island Press covered the event. Lights were installed.
So local elected officals with BALLS has to make his or her bid for re-election now and wheel a carrage.
How much does Rudy want to payout for the new Baseball stadium? Afew ramp overhead crossings could be made avaible.
How much was the income from Metrocard? Where did it go? I heard up state.
avid
[Pedestrians aren't the problem...it's buses and cars.]
There are actually THREE distinct problems of varying sizes:
BIG: Pedestrians who cross between signalized intersections and assume that motorists can stop on a dime.
BIGGER: Motorists who treat a 30-mph street like the Autobahn.
BIGGEST: The overall design of Queens Blvd, with few signalized crossings and three narrow medians which afford minimal pedestrian refuge space. (The two outer medians are where the Manhattan & Queens County Traction Company's trolley cars ran.)
-----
In the long term, I feel that most of Queens Blvd should be rebuilt to resemble the Sunnyside and Kew Gardens-Briarwood segments: frequent intersections; ONE roadway in each direction; and a wide median for pedestrians.
In the long term, I feel that most of Queens Blvd should be rebuilt to resemble the Sunnyside and Kew Gardens-Briarwood segments: frequent intersections; ONE roadway in each direction; and a wide median for pedestrians.
That would make Queens Boulevard HELL for drivers. The best way is to build an elevated highway.
[{Re-engineering} would make Queens Boulevard HELL for drivers. The best way is to build an elevated highway.]
Some random comments:
1. Automobiles are not, not, NOT the be-all-and-end-all of the universe. Pedestrians exist, and to assume them away is unrealistic and irresponsible.
2. An elevated highway, complete with ramps and interchanges, would be FAR more expensive than a re-engineered boulevard. Where would the extra money come from?
3. An elevated highway would add CONSIDERABLY to the stress on the subway support columns below (which already support an entire street with traffic). Where would that money come from?
4. An elevated highway, complete with ramps and interchanges, would be a HUGE eyesore and noise pollutant. The resulting HUGE drop in all surrounding property values (including my apartment) would constitute a "taking" by eminent domain, which would force the city to pay, pay, pay. Where would that money come from?
5. A properly re-engineered and "traffic-calmed" boulevard, with frequent intersections, would force motorists to drive safely. It would also be NOTHING NEW - compare the Sunnyside and Kew Gardens-Briarwood segments of Queens Blvd, or upper Broadway or Park Avenue in Manhattan.
6. A properly re-engineered and "traffic calmed" boulevard, with wide medians, would offer ample refuge space for pedestrians .
7. A re-engineered boulevard, with landscaping, would enhance property values (which means additional property tax revenue for the city).
What kind of traffic calming do you propose? Speed bumps? Neck downs? Something else?
[What kind of traffic calming do you propose? Speed bumps? Neckdowns? Something else?]
Basically, given the existing layout, almost ANYTHING could be considered "calming" by comparison.
Actually, neckdowns would be a good idea. They would take the form of sidewalk extensions at all crosswalks and bus stops, so that buses would stay in the "second" lane instead of pulling out of and into traffic. (This concept was proposed in a NYC Transit report - entitled "Faster Than Walking?" - as a congestion mitigation measure, paticularly for Midtown Manhattan, and was dubbed the "New York Bus Stop.")
Both of those have been tossed around as ideas, plus traffic-calming signal timing and more signalized crosswalks. IMO, all of these, with the possible exception of neckdowns, will make a bad traffic situation worse.
The current plan of building an overpass at the eight "deadliest" locations would be a complete waste of money, considering several of those locations already have pedestrian underpasses, i.e., subway stations. Use of them for crossing purposes should be publicized. Also, the signalized crosswalks should be pedestrian actuated; not that there presence matters all that much, since most pedetrians ignore them. At dangerous intersections without subway crossings, or where there are a lot of elderly, a pedestrian actuated all-red phase would make things safer and not needlessly punish motorists.
I like the concept of an elevated highway there (on a landscaped embankment, not piles a la Gowanus), since grade separation is always the best measure, but the expense is needless.
I have a couple questions for Simon Billis or anybody else who has worked or done business in the UK:
As part of my upcoming visit to London, I'm going to try to schedule an informational interview with Lord Norman Foster, one of a small handful of cutting-edge architects in the world whom I have a great deal of admiration for.
A couple of quick questions that I want to ask before I commit any breaches of business etiquette or otherwise embarrass myself:
1) Is an informational interview a common practice in the UK, and if so, is that the name used for it? Or is there some other phrase used to describe essentially the same thing? (Here in the US, an informational interview is basically a chance to sit down with somebody in a business setting and ask them a few questions about their work and what they do. Not to be confused with an actual job interview, although informational interviews have been known to lead to job opportunities on occasion.)
2) In composing a business letter, I'd of course use his full title of Lord Norman Foster. However, what would be the proper way to refer to him when, say, speaking with his receptionist to set up a meeting time? Titles of nobility aren't something we usually deal with here in the US, so I'm a bit in the dark about how to approach the subject.
I normally wouldn't be asking this on SubTalk, but I've searched all over the internet to no avail, and none of my co-workers have been much help.
Any other tips or pointers would also be greatly appreciated... Thanks in advance.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Have you tried the Miss Manners Column in the paper?
Or, how about calling the British Consulate where you live? They're certain to know.
David I will respond to off board.
Simon
Swindon UK
Why is there material scattered between the tracka on the elevated system ie: rails,metal bars etc,cant this stuff be picked up by the track workers after the jobs are done ? i haven't seen any like material in the subway though...anyone ? thanks
Anyone interested in taking an Acela Express fan trip on either March 17 or March 24? I was thinking that a few people might be interested in riding the New York-Boston stretch, but the $240 fare was a daunting impediment. The fare would be between $190 and $200 round-trip. E-mail me or give me some feedback about this.
I've already done it and wouldn't come but maybe do AE up and NE Direct back or vice versa.
Pictures of R62 AND R12 leaving Concourse yard for the final time. More to be added later.
Peace,
ANDEE
Are those from the Union Sq wreck or the Fordham collision?
That is 1437, from the Union Square Wreck.
I wonder when 1440 (also in the Union Sq Wreck) is going to be put on the chopping block?
-Stef
What's taking them so long ?
It has to be litigation. After all, there were injuries as a result of a Motorman's negligence, not to mention the fact that the signal system didn't throw the train into emregency. Someone has to be held responsible. I guess the court battles are finished, or are they?
-Stef
wHERE IS 1440 LOCATED?
pEACE,
andee
1440 should be at 207th Street Yard. It sits out of service with other Union Sq Damaged Cars, 1435,36,39. Fordham Collision Cars, 1366-70 are out there as well.
Speaking of the Fordham Collision, 1361-65 is back on the road, with the Anticlimbers repaired. They look new, but I think the exisiting ones were fixed up.
-Stef
More photos added for a total of 22. Enjoy!
Peace,
ANDEE
Did I spot two different kinds of side doors on the same R-12?
You're right, there appears to be at least one panel from an R-1/9 on the red one.
Peace,
ANDEE
"You're right, there appears to be at least one panel from an R-1/9 on the red one."
I wonder if that R-12 ran in service with that door panel or did it repleace the original after retirement?
Bill "Newkirk"
I would hazard a guess and say that it might have run in service with that panel because it is painted red. If the replacement were done after retirement I don't think they would've bothered to paint it.
Peace,
ANDEE
"I would hazard a guess and say that it might have run in service with that panel because it is painted red. If the replacement were done after retirement I don't think they would've bothered to paint it."
I just thought of something. Did you look at that door panel up close ? I was wondering that maybe that's not a R1-9 door panel but and R-12 door panel with the smaller glass with air vents ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Could be, Bill but I did not take the pictures.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee,
Did your friend take pics of 5851 and the IND Flat Car being removed?
-Stef
Yes, I will try to post them later this week
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm glad that the TA Museum has one of these pre-red birds in their collection. I remember riding them in the 60's. Those little fans made a hell of a noise. Thanks for sharing.
Mr t__:^)
6 more PHOTOSadded.
Peace,
ANDEE
If there was no worldwide depression, and if there was no World War II, and if Phase II of the IND was built. What Lettered and double lettered trains would exist today. This also excluds the Christy Street connection. Did any plans go so far as to "letter any of the future routes?
avid
If you download the BAHN layout by Joseph Korman which can be found on his site, you can see what he envisioned:
A - Wash Hgts - 8th Ave - Fulton - Fulton (Bkl) - Rockaway
AA - Wash Hgts - 8th Ave - Worth St - South 4th - Myrtle Ave - Rockaway
BB - Wash Hgts - 6th Ave - Worth St - South 4th - Myrtle Ave - Rockaway
CC - Concourse - 8th Ave - Houston St - South 4th - Utica Ave
D - Concourse - 6th Ave - Houston - South 4th - Utica
E - Archer - Jamaica - 8th Ave - Fulton - Fulton (Bkl) - Rockaway
EE - Jamaica - Broadway (BMT)
F - Jamaica - 6th Ave - Houston - Culver
GG - Forest Hills - Crosstown - Brooklyn Church Ave
HH - Euclid Ave - (Rockaway) - Far Rockaway
J - Crosstown - Myrtle - Roosevelt
K - Rockaway - Roosevelt
Q - Dyre Ave - 2nd Ave - Manhattan Bridge - BMT
R - 110th St - 2nd Ave - Broadway (BMT)
T - Jamaica - 63rd St - 2nd Ave - South 4th - Utica
V - Archer - Jamaica - 63rd St - 6th Ave - Houston - Culver
W - Pelham - 2nd Ave - Court St - Fulton (Bkl)
===========================================================================
The time of operations are:
A operates express all times on Fulton St
AA is non-rush hours only
BB is rush hour only
CC is rush hour only
E Operates Fulton St Local to Rockaway Park 4:30 AM to 8:00PM
E Operates to Chambers St other times
EE is rush Hour only
F operates to Kings Highway when V is running
F operates to Coney Island when V is not running
GG operates to Church Ave 5:00AM to 10:00PM
J operates to Church Ave 5:00AM to 10:00PM
K operated 4:30AM to 9:00PM
V and T use the super express to Manhattan in AM and to Queens in PM
V operates 4:00AM to 10:00PM - express Jay St to Church Av
V operates express from Kings Highway AM and to Kings Highway in PM
W operates local all times on Fulton St
Is there a fantasy map for this anywhere?
I don't think he left one posted, but to see it a cooler way, go to his site for instructions on downloading the simulation program, BAHN. {His site is www.quuxuum.org/~joekor} No typo in there. It actually shows each respective train running. There are a few other layouts like this such as how the BMT looked 50 years ago,etc.
Thanks for link. Unfortunately, I am a Mac user, and therefore unsupported.
Sorry, replied to wrong posting. If anyone is bemused, I meant that BAHN for Mac does not exist, therefore I will have to stick to traditional maps for now.
If you can successfully con me into changing my handle (you provide the name), you will win the following GRAND PRIZE:
A 30-day unlimited Metrocard for the price of a 46 ride Pay-Per-Ride Card!
It's a great deal!
Let me see, Arnold Ziffel, or maybe Wilbur Zuckerman?
Arnold Ziffel is one of my favorite pigs...
Peace,
ANDEE
If that's your GRAND PRIZE, then I'd hate to see the prizes for the runner-ups. They'd have to take out second mortgages to win them.
Howza 'bout "Artur Flegenheimer" or "Prentice McBunns"? Or even "the Porkster" , "Porker" or go by acronyms initals like everyone else does, such as "P.T.O.W.M.", or more contemporarily, "P-TOWM"!! Oh, BTW-WAAY COOOOOL grand prize!! And I was afaid you'd try to woo us with some stupid paid vacation to Hawaii, or some rickety old brand new car or something needlessly materialsitic and expensive like that! --Peace, Thomas the 12-WHEELED (yes, thats right, 12!) R-15 Subway Engine that I KNOW existed at one time, no matter what you 10,000 or so OTHER Subway history buffs contend! :)
Ooh, a 27¢ discount!!
How about "Snowball?"
I say Diet Coke. Because I drink Diet Coke alot of times when I outside.
Dominick Bermudez.
Diet Coke Drinker
What ever happened to Coke II aka New Coke?
It's still collecting dust on grocery store shelves as far as I know.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Nope.
It got dumped very quickly when the customers refused to buy it. Thus the sudden re-emergence of the traditional formula under the guise of Coca-Cola Classic.
Best use of New Coke: At one of the Antique Auto shows at BSM an ownwe showed up with a beautifully restored 1957 Edsel. After parking (in the middle of the North Avenue Loop) he opened the trunk to reveal: Two cases of New Coke.
Fitting. The two greatest bombs in American marketing.
1957 Edsel
1958, 1959, or 1960, but not 1957 :-)
BTW I'm still looking for an affordable 1960 wagon...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe it's just Chicago area, but I've seen Coke II on the grocery store shelves as recently as a year ago (I haven't really checked for it since then, however). Not that I've ever seen anybody actually buying it, but it's there alongside Coke Classic, Diet Coke, etc. As I recall, it's priced substantially less than the regular Coke products, more along the lines of the el-cheapo grocery store house brand drinks and [*cringe*] RC Cola.
-- David
Chicago, IL
you should buy some and sell it on ebay. you never know how much you will get
[*cringe*] RC Cola
Elixer of life! I stock up when I'm home in North Carolina; in New Jersey it costs considerably more than regular Coke (I haven't seen New Coke/Coke II in the five years I've been working in NJ).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not necessarily.....In some ways New Coke/CokeII was a very GOOD thing for Coca-Cola...after all 'Old' Coke HAD been slipping against Pepsi UNTIL the New Coke debacle..suddenly folks got reminded how much they really liked Coke,and it has beaten Pepsi's pants ever since..no matter HOW much money Pepsico spends on celebrities endorsing it...they just dont get it.......I cant even remember the last time I saw New Coke/Coke II on a shelf..sitting by itself..nobody even wanting to look at..not even the Coke jobber.....who is DYING cause its taking up valuable shelf space....
Why is that? Doesn't that seem strange to anyone, considering the fact that both the New Coke and Pepsi taste better that the classic Coke?
- Lyle Goldman
I had understood Coke 86ed it and ended its production after less than a year in trial. BTW-Pepsi at about that same time very quietly tested a new Pepsi in Japan. Like" New Coke" it didn't take off!!
Peace, Thomas:)
I still remember Crystal Pepsi. I think I'm the only person who actually liked it.
And Pepsi A.M....
-Hank
Pepsi AM? what was that?
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't fully remember, it was either the same as Pepsi-Kona (Pepsi and Coffee) or a more/less caffinated version of the blue caned beverage
Pepsi AM was Pepsi with double caffeine.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They should really market AM Ale.
I liked it. I also liked Clear tab. from what I understand both are still around in europe.
It (New Coke) was certainly on the market for longer than a year. I haven't seen it anywhere for the last few years, but I don't remember hearing that it was officially canceled, either. Perhaps they still make it in token quantities just to justify the "Classic" designation for Coca-Cola Classic.
(No, the phrase "token quantities" wasn't meant to be a pun. But I guess you can take it as a "transit reference" if you want to. Here's another: New Coke will forever be associated with Max Headroom, a character from a very urban environment. Was any sort of transit system ever shown as existing in the dystopian "Max Headroom" world? I don't think so.)
New Coke came and went in the mid 1980s, and coke II did the same thing in the early to mid 90s. Funny thing is that the original coke was renamed "Coca-Cola Classic" when New Coke came out, even though it did not last. For the competitors, Crystal Pepsi did not survive either.
As for a new handle, how about "the little pig who occasionally couldn't." -Nick
New Coke was the changed Coke formula. People were up in arms because of the classic Coke formula being changed like that (most of these people didn't try the new coke, and most people liked it better!), so they want back to the original formula, calling it Coca-Cola Classic and rebranding the new Coke as (well) New Coke.
In 1990 New Coke became Coke II. The last time I ever saw it was in 1993.
I rember when I was little when I was 7 Years old back in 1995. Everytime I whent with my MOM every Summer to this drug store now closed down since 1998 after CVS open at Queens Blvd. The drug store name when before closed down in 1998 was Reaco drug stores. It's that pink bulding at Lefferts Blvd and Metropolitan Ave. Back in 1995.When I saw Crystal Pepsi in Reaco. The first time I buyed it. Then I like the taste of Crystal Pepsi. Then everytime I went to Reaco. I allways buy the Crystal Pepsi until 1996.
CokeII was on sale in Universal Studios back in 1992 when I went there with my Mom and Dad.
Dominick Bermudez.
Reaco, or Revco? Because Revco was bought out by CVS. On staten Island, most people still call CVS 'Sav-On', which is what it was befoe the merger with Revco. Before they were Sav-On, they were Hooks, and SupeRx, with some Hook's SupeRx.
-Hank
And, if you will notice, the word 'Classic' keeps getting smaller and harder to find on the various packages;plus it never gets mentioned on the TV ads.My prediction is that the company will phase out the 'Classic' tag in another 5-10 years....
My friend bought a can on Coke II on Ebay, he is waiting for the right occasion to consume it.
I do that with Snapple French Cherry Soda. Down to 2 bottles, been having one every New Years.
And then we'll see your friend in the obituaries, and the cause will be food poisoning.
Nahl (The Bee) is the book of the Qur'an which forbids consumption of Pork.
How about Pork:The Other Bad Meat
What about Captain Oinker? You're the top swine in your class...:-)
BTW, why not make this the Grand Prize: you can't post at SubTalk for the rest of your life. THAT would be the top prize...(just teasing ya).
;-)
BMTman
How about "Oink Oink: Guess Who"
A little known thing happened yesterday, February 20th marked the 25000th day that the 8th Avenue IND has been in service.
I have a counter for that on my website and I guess I didn't check it but low and behold, it now reads that today is the 25001st day of operation.
Now, the question.
The IND opened in 1932. Did the WPA, set up by FDR, work on either the IND or any other subway system?
AFAIK the Queens line was sponsored by WPA.
How does that take into account the 1960's strike days with no passenger operation?
The Downeaster. Or, how to waste 4 hours on a train. According to the tentative schedules, the 114 mile run from Boston to Portland is, at best, 3 and a half hours, and at worst close to 4. For those not good at math, that's at best, 33 or so mph end to end.
Is it any wonder why Amtrak's ridership has remained flat for the last 2 or so decades?
At 33 mph, it wouldn't even win the Tour De France.
$46 million bucks. I'm guessing ridership will spike at the beginning, then quickly drop to a trickle.
This is supposed to be the new an improved Amtrak? I think I'll pass. The only thing that could make this service even more of a joke than it is would be Amtrak calling it a "high speed" train.
Even more fun, Guilford has decided they may not allow 80mph running after all, and Amtrak is of course, a bit miffed (can't call 60mph High Speed, but 80 counts now too).
Another thing I've noticed, virtually all of amtrak is now a Federal High Speed Rail Corridor. Thus, we now have the world's largest "high speed rail" system, yet the trains are slower than some third world countries.
The best thing that could happen for intercity rail in the US would be for 2003 to come and Amtrak get liquidated and we start from the beginning.
Heh, whoops. I read the website wrong, I thought what was listed as the Boston Departure times were the Boston *arrival* times. Anyway, Guilford says it's 59mph on the line for now. So, i wouldn't be surprised if my pseudo projected 3.5 - 4 hour trip is that close to what it'll really be anyway.
Oh well. I'll try to see if I can scrape up a more definative source later.....
The start of service got delayed over an arguement b/t Amtrak and Guilford over the line's top speed. Amtrak got approval to go at 79mph, but Guilford says the line is only good for 59mph.
Railpace and Trains Magazines both posted short statements about the (indefinite) delay to beginning the Boston-Portland service.
It won't matter much when the Amtrak train gets stuck behind one of Guilfords 30mph symbol freights
"Another thing I've noticed, virtually all of amtrak is now a Federal High Speed Rail Corridor. Thus, we now have the world's largest 'high speed rail' system, yet the trains are slower than some third world countries."
But until the $10 billion/10 year High-Speed Rail Investment Act was introduced last Senate -- it will likely pass this year, as a $12 billion package over 10 years -- there was NO money behind those highly-touted corridor designations. A few million in federal and state money was spent on grade crossing eliminations or improvements on the corridors over the past few years, but that had nothing to do with them being officially designated corridors, and some of the crossing improvements occurred on non-corridor (and even non-passenger altogether) trackage.
It's not fair to condemn the high-speed corridor designation program when it's been almost completely toothless until now.
Well, the 4:30pm last departure from Portland kinda rules out any use by Portlnd commuters.
I just read the Wall street journal today and I looked at a ad of Sprint ad on Page A7. And It was a BART train Cars #1753 and #227 on that ad. If anybody can tell me what station it is in that ad?
Dominick Bermudez.
That's one weird photo -- it must have been doctored. There's no roof to the station, yet there's one solitary metal beam going across the sky with a "Platform 3" sign hanging from it. And the platform itself is at track level, yet these are high level doors. That is, the doors are a full foot or more above the platform.
What I mean is the doors to the subway cars are a full foot or 2 higher than the platform. Since they're subway cars, they don't appear to have steps.
I took the (T) today. Here is a photo.
E-mail it to Dave so he can post it to this site. That's alwife station right?
I went to high school in Boston. That is most definitely Alewife station.
Does everyone on this site know that part of the development of Alewife station (this was done during the extension of the Red Line from Harvard through Cambridge and Somerville in the 1980's) included the establishment of a nature preserve on the property (and alewife are found in the water!)? Well, now you know.
LOL. As I was downloading this message, I was prepared to chastize you for teasing us all with some sort of time machine which allowed you to ride the system pre Chrystie St.
Hi everyone!!
Recently I visited Edmonton, Alta. I rode the LRT between downtown and Skyreach Centre; as well as between downtown and the University of Alberta. But what caught my interest was the city's transriver infrastructure. They have what they call the High Level Bridge, a simple truss-and-beam structure (I'm groping for the proper terms here; I don't know as much about bridgebuilding as I'd like to) that towers, with great muscularity, 157 feet over the North Saskatchewan River. Luckily it's got walkways and bikeways on either side, and of course a roadway, but on the upper deck there are railroad tracks which I believe remain unused. Edmonton is so isolated that it's tough to research its history online; but I think I read somewheres that those tracks were for streetcar traffic, not "major" railroads like the CP or Calgary & Edmonton...
I'm fascinated by this bridge, as well as by the Walterdale Hill and the Low Level Bridge, the city's other two "historic" bridges. Anyone know where I could find out more about them; their design and construction, and their past uses?
Thanks,
Seth P.
I believe there is a historic streetcar operation on the High Level bridge now, run by the same people who operate a little museum in Fort Edmonton Park (they would be the Edmonton Raidal Railway Society).
Boston, DC, and Chicago use colors. NYC uses letters and numbers, holdovers from it multiple-system past. Atlanta uses cardinal directions. Philly uses obtuse street names, or colloquially, the "sub" and the "el". London uses creative names that rarely have much to do with the lines themselves. Lisbon is the only city I know of that uses icons, such as Seagull, or Sunflower. As a younger system, it has the freedom to be more creative, and is less encumbered by an irrelevant past. Which do think is better? Would you change some cities from one system to another? I try to use blue line for BSS or Orange line for MFL, but people tend to give me blank stares.
LISBON OBVIOUSLY RULES!!!
I enjoy the names on London's Underground most of all. But I think the simplicity of one letter or one number per line is best in a city like New York, that has so much cultural and linguistic diversity. It's better that the system there is simplified.
I hadn't heard about Lisbon!! San Diego Trolley used to have the East line (now the Orange Line) and the South line (now the Blue line). Signs along the Orange Line feature a little sunburst icon; along the Blue Line you'll see a little ocean-wave icon. When this was first introduced, I thought San Diego Trolley was the only transit system whose lines each have their own logo; but I guess Lisbon can also lay claim to that feature.
The closest thing in America to the London Underground's naming schemes was Chicago's old one: the Ravenswood line, the Howard Line, the Skokie Swift.. I realise these are less delightfully irrelevant than the London ones, but they had character. More character than "Brown," "Red," and "Yellow," anyway.
Are those lines still known as the Ravenswood line, etc, by the locals? The Route 100 is still known as teh P&W by the locals around the line do to it's previous owner, Philadelphia & Western. The 101 and 102 used to be just known as the Media and Sharon Hill lines, and were given number designations in the later 80's.
> The closest thing in America to the London Underground's
> naming schemes was Chicago's old one: the Ravenswood line,
> the Howard Line, the Skokie Swift.. I realise these are less
> delightfully irrelevant than the London ones, but they had
> character. More character than "Brown," "Red," and "Yellow,"
> anyway.
Not only more character, but more informative; they indicated where the line went, at least for anyone familiar with local geography.
Originally, five of the "L" lines were named for city parks (and surrounding neighborhoods) that they served: Jackson Park, Normal Park, Douglas Park, Garfield Park, and Humboldt Park. Most of the other names referred to the street, neighborhood or suburb which was the line's destination: Englewood, Kenwood, Stock Yards, Westchester, Logan Square, Ravenswood, Howard Street, Wilson Avenue, Evanston, Niles Center. In the Chicago Rapid Transit Co. years only the Lake Street line was named for the street along which it ran, though in the CTA era the Milwaukee, Congress, and Dan Ryan lines also followed this convention.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
In the Chicago Rapid Transit Co. years only the Lake Street line was named for the street along which it ran ...
Of course, it was the only line which ran along a street. The others ran mid-block, over alleys or on a private right of way.
-- Ed Sachs
Chicago's two subway lines bear the names of the streets they run beneath downtown; i. e., State St. and Dearborn.
There's room to quibble here, I think. Chicagoans often refer to the physical facilities as the State Street and Dearborn Street subways, but CTA has never operated rapid transit _lines_ by those names.
Alan Follett
"The closest thing in America to the London Underground's naming schemes was Chicago's old one: the Ravenswood line, the Howard Line, the Skokie Swift. I realise these are less delightfully irrelevant than the London ones, but they had character. More character than 'Brown,' 'Red,' and 'Yellow,' anyway."
The colors aren't a fraction as bad as the weird cardinal-directional convention CTA was trying in the 1970s. We ended up with such confusing gems as "West-South", "North-South", and "West-Northwest". Ugh! Points of the compass are fine for Atlanta's MARTA, with one east-west route and one north-south route. But with two completely separate routes each on the West Side and South Side, adopting that approach for Chicago was muddleheaded.
Most of the London lines adopted their 'slang' names:
BAKERstreet and waterLOO
Great Northern PICCADLLY and Brompton
MetropolitanDISTRICT railway
CENTRAL London railway
METROPOLITAN Railway (which considered its branch from
Baker Street it's Main Line)
HAMMERSMITH AND CITY joint railway (from Westbourne Pk.)
(Through trains ran to whitechapel and Barking)
Mordon-Edgware line was renamed when extensions over LNER NORTHERN Heights branches were planned but half did not eventuate
Waterloo & City Railway (DRaiN).
for one thing, the BSS is the "Orange Line" and the MFL is the "Blue Line". Philly has such a small subway system that they can actually name the lines after roads. Even so, the locals call teh MFL the el, or you could say the Market-Frankford Line, although I think that you might be able to call it the blue line, but it's much better to call it the el. The Broad street subway is called the Broad Street Line, and the Broad-Ridege is called the Broad-Ridge line. Personally, I like the leter and number designations. You can run out of colors or you can have so many taht it can get confusing (the magenta line, the turqoise line, the spring green line?) Too many lines with street designations get really confusing. I have this "subway system" called Goodrail in the city of Goodworth. It's sorta a combination of MARTA's and NYC's designations. There are the North-South lines and the East-West lines. In each of these divisions there are four lines. the Route designation is something like this for a North south line NS1 and like this for an East-West line EW3. I can see how this can get confusing, but I think it actually works.
In Russia they have irrevelant names AND colors denote different lines.
Arti
New York City has multiple routes running on one set of tracks, and a single route traversing multiple sets of tracks. Other cities generally do not. So New York City has letters and numbers for the routes, and names for the sets of tracks (West End, Sea Beach, Culver). Now that I'm working in Capital Budget, I can tell you that the names are still front and center when referring to a section of the railroad.
Off the top of my head, here are the reasons why the lines are named the way they are today.
Bakerloo: built as the Baker Street & Waterloo Rlwy, although it went to Elephant and Castle in the South. Immediately nicknamed Bakerloo by unimpressed local newspaper. The name stuck.
Central: built as the Central London Rlwy, shortened in time to Central. Central is a good name for its route.
Circle: used to be known as Inner Circle. Self explanatory, although definitely not a Circle.
District: built as the Metropolitan District Rlwy. Shortened in time to District. South Central Line would probably be a better name.
East London: only recently given its own colour. Self explanatory, although may soon be extended north and south.
Hammersmith & City: self explanatory, "City" refers to the "City of London", roughly enclosed by Temple, Farringdon, and Liverpool Street. This line was only recently given its own colour and name on the map. It used to be shown as the Metropolitan Line.
Jubilee Line: a bit of sycophancy by a London politician, in honour of the Silver Jubilee of our Queen Elizabeth 2nd. Original proposed name: Fleet Line. This was just as useless, the Fleet is an old underground river that the line was intended to follow.
Metropolitan Line: originally Metropolitan Rlwy. The first underground line, but not the best name possible. Harrow-City Line anyone?
Northern: amalgamation of two seperate tubes, but named after an ambitious expansion scheme that was stopped after the 2nd World War. These were into the NORTHERN heights, the name of the extremely hilly areas north of Euston. Current newspaper nickname is Misery Line, but doesn't kave quite the same ring as Bakerloo, so not likely to be officially adopted.
Piccadilly: originally Great Northern, Piccadilly, and Brompton Railway. Great Northern referred to the main line railway company that ran into Kings Cross. Brompton is roughly south of Kensington, the line never actually reached there. Piccadilly Circus is the centre of the line, and the name of a Street, but doesn't say much else.
Victoria: I don't think any other name was ever considered. Victoria main line station had awful connections before this line was built.
Waterloo & City: Self explanatory.
The Future?
The only new tube line currently under consideration will run from Wimbledon, to Chelsea, Victoria, Kings Cross, Hackney, and one of the Central Line eastern branches. Current proposed name: Chelsea-Hackney. Informative, but boring, and Chelney/Hacksea don't work either.
What about the "Diana line?"
I think she deserves SOMETHING...
She does, but a tube line?
Actually, Diana Line is a bit too apt for the neighbourhoods that this line will serve. It starts in Chelsea, heads for Buckingham Palace but misses it, and ends up in ruin ...
Well, why NOT a tube line?
There's a tube line named "Victoria" (doncha know). Perhaps I need to be enlightened as to whether it was named for the 19th century monarch, or just because it serves Victoria station...
Definitely named after the place, not the monarch, although the place may have been named after the monarch.
Why not a tube line? Well, its all very nice when the line is brand new and just out of its wrapping, but 50 years on when the paintwork is peeling and the tiling is coming off the wall?
Atleast the Docklands Light Railway makes sense in terms of naming.The Northern Line really earns the name Misery Line.I was in London in December and a large section of the line was out of service.The Picadilly Line which connects with Heathrow gets first priority in terms of reliability support.The system is huge and very interesting-lots of open air running,often alongside the former Britrail(a complete disaster since privatization).
The Northern line is now thankfully one of the most reliable, with the new trains and engineering works recently undertaken. I use the Picadilly regularly and never cease to wonder at the antics of the train controllers who seem to play games with the passengers traveling to Heathrow by running first an Uxbridge, then a Rayners Lane, then a Northfiled then terminate the next at Action Town. For those who have changed at Acton Town and have flights to catch the wait for a space on the next Heathrow must be hell.
Simon
Swindon UK
Back in 78, when I was living in London, Picadilly lines trains used to alternate
between the two branches. Heathrow, Rayners Lane (Uxbridge in peak hours).
I am curious what's the current ratio. And correct me if my memories are not
so accurate.
I'd love to ride the Northern line with its new cars.
Last time I rode on the "misery" line, most trains were still 59-62 stock,
with one of them in 1938 stock red livery.
I would still associate that line with the 1938 tube stock, though.
During the peak hour, there are a lot more commuters than airline passengers. It is the correct practice to run trains to the commuter destinations preferentially versus the airport.
Airport (both staff and passengers) tend to generate round-the-clock flat demand, whereas commuter demands are highly peaked; thus during the peak hours the commuters carry more weight.
AEM7
Why not abandon Rayners Lane-North Ealing. Is there something important there?
AEM7
But it's a perfect candidate for bustitution. I mean I see the logic of keeping the line open since it is already there, but it just seems like such a logical thing to abandon (duplicated crosstown line, light ridership) that I am surprised they hadn't done it. What is the rush hour frequency on that branch?
AEM7
But the demand there is less likely to be peaked. Airline stewardesses (some ride transit) show up for when when they are told to, not at 9am; then the maintenance and facilities people tend to work 3 shifts with changes at 7am, 3pm and 11pm which are away from the nominal "rush hour"; the people who man the shops in the terminals also have sign on/sign off hours that are outside the 8am-10am peak and 4pm-7pm peak -- so there might not be a reason to beef up the rush hour service for the Heathrow end of the commute. I agree with you re: the downtown end of the commute.
I can only think of seven (eight if you count London Victoria as two stations) in the UK, four (*) of which are no more:
London (LBSCR & LCDR)
Manchester (LYR)
Norwich (GER) *
Nottingham (GCR/GNR Jt) *
Sheffield (GCR/GNR Jt) *
Southend-on-Sea (GER)
Swansea (MR) *
There were probably several in the colonies too.
I think she deserves SOMETHING...
Okay, now she has a fountain which doesn't quite work. I reckon that'll do. Maybe the Frogs could rename Alma-Marceau "Diana Dauphine Galloise" or something if the memory of that awful woman has to infect any railway.
The Chelsea-Hackney Line is an awful name, but the Diana Line would be worse. I prefer the King's Line as a name.
-James
Chelsea Cross because Chelsea is a nice sounding name (Hackney sounds crap, King is not very specific, Wimbledon Line would be wrong, and there is already a East London line. Hackney Line would sound like it's a taxi service). Cross is there to commemorate the fact that the line goes through King's Cross, but also the fact that it is a CROSS-London line.
AEM7
Max, there is only one name for the Chelsea Hackney - "Livingstone Line"
Simon
Swindon UK
Simon,
Good one, but don't tell anyone else. If he gets to hear of it, he just might do it.
So the Metropolitan Line was renamed Hammersmith & City. I must admit I got thrown for a loop when one of you mentioned a while back that the original 1863 segment was now part of the Hammersmith & City line.
No that's not exactly correct; look at the tube map; The Metropolitan, H&C, and Circle all share the original 1863 segment across London from Baker St. to Moorgate. The H&C was given its own designation because it serves a different part of London once it separates from the Metropolitan at Baker St. This happened many years ago though (5 since I've been going over there and all the line name/color changes that Max talked about had already been done)
-Dave
I stand corrected. I still kick myself for not taking a Circle Line train along that stretch when I was there in 1978.
Don't kick yourself Steve. The way that Circle Line runs, you'd probably STILL be waiting for it. That line runs like the G, they're both supposed to run every 10 minutes, and you've gotta hope that they show up at all.
I'm logging on from home for a change, so I actually have my bookshelf next to me.
OK, the first stretch of "Metropolitan Line" opened from Paddington (Bishops Road) to Farringdon (street) in 1863. The only current line to serve this in its entirity is the Hammersmith & City Line. Hammersmith was reached in 1864. What we now call the Metropolitan Line (Aldgate to Harrow etc.) gradually opened from 1868 onwards. Having said that, neither Paddington (H&C) nor Edgware Road particularly betray thair early origins.
Thanks, that's interesting. I'll have to stop by there again on my next visit (late March)...
Not quite. The section from Westbourne Park to Hammersmith was originally promoted by a company called the Hammersmith & City, which was owned 50% by the Metropolitan and 50% by the Great Western.
I had a great afternoon last Friday at the London Transport Museum in Covent Garden. My girlfriend and I were travelling up from Epsom to Birmingham, and she decided she wanted to go shopping in London on the way back. We arrived at Waterloo station, walked over the bridge to Waterloo East, caught a train into Charing X (lucky they're so frequent - they were all hugely delayed as a track fire had killed the slow lines over the Hungerford Bridge), then walked from Charing X to Covent Garden (carefully not using our cross-London transfer). She then totally surprised me by suggesting going to the museum (I thought I'd have had to persuade her). The museum's really quite good as they go, although they still have Crossrail planned as going to High Wycombe and Watford Junction. Nice shop with some vaguely interesting books in it too. :-D
Anyway, we then walked to Charing X underground, rode to Euston, then not only managed to get on the 1745, but managed to get the seats opposite the guard's cab (the two single facing ones with a table and extra elbow-room). All in all good day... dammit for me leaving my nice new digital camera at home in Birmingham.
The East London was shown on Beck's original map as a separate line though it later reverted to Met.Line, later Met.and Dist. Lines (green) then Met Line (purple) and now independant again.
It's ownership is as tangled:
1 Independent
2 Five Joint owners
3 Four: " " " SR 2/5ths. (rest : 1/5th each )
4Three " " " SR 2/5ths LPTB 2/5 ths
LNER (ex GER ) 1/5th
5 one owner (BTC) and handed over to London
Transport to operate.
How about suburban/commuter rail lines. In Chicago, the names used for the 12 Metra rail lines are an odd mix of railroad names and made-up names.
UP North (formerly C&NW North) - Ogilvie Transportation Center (formerly Northwestern Sta) to Kenosha.
Milwaukee North (former CMStP&P Railway) - Union Station to Fox Lake
North Central (along Wisconsin Central RR) - Union Station to Antioch
UP Northwest (formerly C&NW Northwest) - Ogilvie TC to Harvard/McHenry
Milwaukee West - Union Station to Elgin (Big Timber)
UP West (formerly C&NW West) - Ogilvie TC to Geneva
BNSF (formerly BN, Burlingon) - Union Station to Aurora
Heritage Corridor (formerly IC, ICG, GM&O, Alton) - Union Station to Joliet
Southwest (formerly N&W, Wabash) - Union Station to Orland Park
Rock Island (formerly CRI&P) - Union Station to Joliet
Metra Electric (formerly IC, ICG) - Randolph St. Station to University Park with branches to South Chicago and Blue Island
South Shore (NICTD, formerly CSS&SB) - Randolph St. Station to South Bend
-- Ed Sachs
I think the best way to name lines is to have a letter or number, followed by the destination terminal (eg, one route would be 3-ThatStation for northbound, and 3-OtherStation for southbound) That way, you know the train's route, and know where it's going at the same time.
Sounds like Philly's RR. However, confusion arises when the R3 Media does not continue as the R3 West Trenton, as you might expect, but instead as the R7 Trenton. Hey, it happens sometimes. Oh, and don't let the names fool you: West Trenton is no where near Trenton. I'd prefer a different number for each suburban rail line, such as:
R1 Airport
R2 Elkton, MD (currently Newark, DE)
R3 West Chester (currently Elwyn, hopefully soon Wawa)
R4 Thorndale
R5 Norristown
R6 Reading (if... just if)
R7 Cynwyd
R8 Chestnut Hill West
R9 Chestnut Hill East
R10 Doylestown
R11 Warminster
R12 West Trenton
R13 Fox Chase (Newtown? I doubt it)
R14 Trenton
R15 Atlantic City
Lest we forget:
Here are the "Proper" names for Bostons Colors (and the most common former colloquial name I've heard)...
Red Line(The Train)
Cambridge Subway became
Cambridge-Dorchester Tunnel added
South Shore Extension
Orange Line(The El)
Main Line Elevated = Charlestown Elevated + Washington St. Elevated added
Atlantic Avenue Elevated rerouted to
Washington St. Tunnel added
Forest Hills Extension and
Everett Extension
then
Charlestown Elevated and Everett Extension rerouted to
Haymarket North and
Washington St. Elevated and Forest Hills Extension rerouted to
Southwest Corridor
(Now aren't you glad its called the Orange Line:)
Blue Line(The Tunnel)
Started as the East Boston Tunnel and added
Revere Extension
Green Line(The Cars)
Started as the Tremont St. Subway(1897) and added (in order)
Lechmere Viaduct(1912)
Boylston St. Subway(1914)
Kenmore Extension(1932)
Huntington Av. Subway(1941)
then became the
Central Subway whose operations were always considered separate from the surface portion of the car lines.
These became part of the subway when it became the Green Line
Now isn't it nicer to just have a color to talk about!
Sample directions to Fenway Park from Everett (as pronounced)
"Take the bus to Evrett then take the el to Wintah, go downstaihs and take the train one stop to Pahk Street Undah, then go upstaihs and catch a cah to Kenmoa."
(Back in those days the passage from the Orange Line to the Green Line at Park St. fell into the urban legend catagory. It was disused from 1916 to about 1980.)
I thought the Huntington subway was earlier than that - 1930's, no? I read in Cudahy "Change at Park Street Under" that the Huntington Subway was the second largest of all the WPA projects in the nation (behind LaGuardia airport...)
I wonder what basis the book uses. Chicago's State Street Subway was also a WPA project, and it's considerably longer and has many more stops than the subway under Huntington Avenue in Boston.
There's also a couple of WPA projects in my original hometown of Cincinnati that are of fairly respectable size, namely, the construction of Columbia Parkway that goes east from downtown to the eastern part of the city. It crosses a large viaduct as it aproaches downtown, and because it's located on a steep hillside high above the Ohio River, it also involved a huge amount of earth-moving and construction of many miles of retaining walls.
Also in Cincinnati is the massive Union Terminal complex, associated rail yards, and the long, double-deck Western Hills Viaduct which were all part of a single massive project. It was built during the same time period, but I'm not sure if it was associated with the WPA or not.
The years of the WPA were certainly not the happiest times in this country's history, but at least people had the balls to take on the big projects and get them built.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Are you sure it wasn't a PWA project? Most WPA tended to be small programs designed to employ large categories of workers. There was an artists project, a mathematicians project, etc. The PWA or Public Works Administration was geared to large infractructure improvements. The Hutntington Ave Subway and 6th Ave Subways were PWA projects.
Have you read about Cincinnati's abandoned (well, never realized) subway? Such a shame it never came to be. I think Cincinnati would be a very different place today. Also, I always chuckled to myself when I had layovers in Cincinnati Airport, but I was actually in Kentucky.
Yeah, that is a fascinating website. I've been meaning to post the link to SubTalk for some time but never got around to it; it looks like you beat me to the punch. The sections about Cincinnati's bridges, viaducts, and other tunnels are also very fascinating. I was surprised to find out that much more of Cincinnati's subway was built than I originally thought, and that there are several other abandoned rail tunnels in and around the city.
Apparently Cincinnati's subway tunnel was designed by the same engineer who designed the MBTA Red Line subway in Boston and was built to the same specifications. One can certainly see the resemblance in the photos. There were also rather ambitious plans for an eventual subway loop around downtown that would have combined subway, trolley and interurban lines. Now that would have been an interesting sight!
Here's a couple photos from the site... SubTalkers should CLICK HERE for many more:
Brighton station platform (water main visible on other trackbed to left):
Race Street Station:
There are currently plans for a north-south light rail line that will involve a deep tunnel under Mount Auburn, and occasionally there is talk about re-using the subway for light rail. According to the website, however, a large water main was placed down the length of the tunnel back in the 1950's and any plans to re-use the subway for transit would require the relocation of that water main. Gotta love the foresight of those engineers back in the 50's. (I also understand there are plans for a commuter rail line from downtown to the eastern suburbs using an existing frieght ROW. Anybody out there have more information on that?)
The abandoned subway tunnel isn't something that is easily accessible to the public, but it is apparently still inspected by the city each year and there is evidence of it here and there: Two portals are visible in the hillside above I-75 northwest of downtown, and there are still vent shafts visible along the length of Central Parkway. Hopefully during my next visit to Cincy -- whenever that is -- I'll have a chance to take a little walking tour of the subway route and take some photos for nycsubway.org. This could be the type of urban archeology expedition that would make Kevin Walsh foam at the mouth. :-)
Also, for those who appreciate great train stations, it would be hard to match the Art Deco beauty of Union Terminal, arguably one of the most magnificent train stations in the country. Unfortunately the concourse was demolished back in the 1970's by the Southern Railroad (the historic murals were relocated to Greater Cincinnati Airport), but the remainder of the terminal including the great rotunda has been beautifully restored and has found new life as a new Museum Center. Thank God, since Union Terminal had been a white elephant for decades and the entire building was occasionally threatened with demolition before city planners became more enlightened about historic preservation issues. There's little doubt that the demolition of Union Terminal would have been an architectural travesty on the scale of NYC's old Penn Station.
Union Terminal, front view:
The location of the airport across the river in Kentucky throws a lot of people off, and Cincinnati has always been resentful that Kentucky gets all the tax revenue from the airport. Occasionally there is talk of building a new airport around Blue Ash, but I doubt that will ever happen as long as CVG has room to expand. (The CVG stands for Covington, Kentucky, by the way.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
...Brighton station platform (water main visible on other trackbed to left)...
Oops, that should have been "water main visible on other trackbed to right." Maybe someday I'll have left and right figured out. :-)
Also, I should have pointed out that the website seems to be on a rather slow server. You may have to be patient while the photos download.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I see that there are high platforms. I thought that this was supposed to be a trolley subway?
No, it was an actual subway very similar to the Red Line in Boston. There had been proposals, however, for additional trolley subways but none were ever built. If they ever do re-use the adandoned subway tunnel for light rail, though, it would be interesting to see how they deal with platform height issues especially since other portions of the light rail system are to be street-running.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Maybe they'll do like what San Fran does and have LRV cars that are high floor for the underground stations, and when they get to street level, the floor next to the doors desend into steps and at that point, it just looks like a bus exit.
Currently, no numbers, letters, or colors are used on Denver's light rail. Since there is basically only one line right now, there is no need for any code. Trains display the destination and that's all there is to it. Now, on maps, the route is designated as Route 101 Southwest/Central, but no one refers to it as such. It is not displayed on trains nor stations. Time will tell what sort of system of identifying different routes gets implemented as new lines are added. It seems more and more people are clammering to have light rail extended to their parts of metro Denver, what with the extraordinary success of the Southwest Corridor. People who wouldn't think of taking a bus are now taking light rail.
If I had to venture a guess, I would say a color code would work best. Trains could have multicolored roller curtains with destinations set against the appropriate color background. OTOH, there would be instances where two or more colors would share the same route, specifically the Central Corridor. Both the existing Southwest and proposed Southeast corridors would feed it. Then if the Southeast spur line to Parker Road and I-225 were to be extended further north, it might get its own color. It's going to be very interesting.
My hometown just started city bus service. There are so few lines that they just have colors: Red, Blue, Green, Yellow, as well as "Silver Springs Shores"
[NYC uses letters and numbers, holdovers from its multiple-system past.]
Strictly speaking, the letters and numbers are ROUTES, while the rights-of-way are LINES. Each route uses one or more lines; for example, Route F uses the Queens Blvd, 6th Avenue and Culver Lines. This is communicated in the R32/R38 roll signs and in station platform-edge signs.
The ROUTE designations are, to some degree, holdovers from the past. The LINE names tend to be geographic (e.g. 8th Avenue, Broadway, Flushing, Jamaica, Fulton Street, Canarsie, Pelham, Dyre Avenue), except for a couple named after long-gone hotels at Coney Island.
I do not think that the T/A should scrap the R-110A subway cars. They should keep them for continued use as test trains. When new technology becomes available for testing they should test the new technology on the R-110A subway cars instead of scrapping them. This way the T/A doesn't have to spend money on a new test train when they already have one to use. They just have to spend money trying the new technology on an existing train. This way they also don't have to try the new technology on a train that is already in revenue service.
BMTJeff
That's a real good idea: recycled subway trains!
I'm glad that you agree with me that they should recycle the R-110As rather than scrapping them. This way they can keep putting them to use as test trains.
BMTJeff
Who's going to manufacture parts for the trains? AFAIK that's the biggest problem with keeping them in service.
Personally, I wish the museums would get first crack at them before scrapping.
"Who's going to manufacture parts for the trains? AFAIK that's the biggest problem with keeping them in service.
Personally, I wish the museums would get first crack at them before scrapping"
We all know where to find SOAC !
Bill "Newkirk"
Aside from the nose job and seating, how different were the SOCA cars from R/rrs?
avid
There's a great section on this site about the SOAC cars. They're happily resting at the Seashore Trolley Museum, where you can visit them.
I do not understand, why they need to scrap new train. It is better and cheaper than to build completely new train just to do some small modernizations to 110A and run the train on any line (2,5,6,7,etc.)
Think of it this way:
You have 100 bic pens. Let's assume you need the ink well, pen body, and the cap to make a completely functioning pen. If one pen's cap is damaged and another's body is damaged, you can combine the still good parts to make one good pen while waiting for replacements. Now, what say you also have two Scripto pens. They work okay, but sometimes have problems and the cap, the body, and the ink well are not compatible with your 100 bics. To repair them, you must specially order parts for that pen only, and must keep this pen wasting space in your drawer until they arrive. Why bother keeping these things if you have more of another class where parts are readily available?
Just playing devil's advocate, I want the 110s to stay too...
You're right. The museums should have the first crack at the test trains rather than the scrappers. If it was up to me I would rather keep the test trains running and use them to test new technology. It would be far cheaper to keep the existing test trains rather than build new ones from scratch.
BMTJeff
>>Who's going to manufacture parts for the trains?<<
BMT Jeff was saying that the cars be used as a test bed, so that future prototype trains won't need to be built.
R62A 2137 in an ad about 20 minutes ago...
really? which ad was it?
I believe it was an add for a Grammy music album.
- Lyle Goldman
Did you also notice in Macy Gray's video, I Try, it takes place on a R68?
Today, while on an inbound Hudson Line train I noticed a strange phenomenon. First item of importance, the consist was arranged as follows:
/Genesis}{CDOT}{CDOT}{CDOT}{MNRR}{MNRR}{CDOT] - All cars are Shoreliner Is.
The moment we enter the park ave tunnel, all the CDOT cars immediately go to emergency lighting. However, the MNRR cars still had full lighting for 5 extra seconds, then went to the newer-style emergency lighting (2 fluorescent tubes in each corner remain lit). Question 1: Why did the MNRR cars have the lights on longer than the rest of the train?
Question 2: Why did the lights go out with third rail present? BTW: This happens often in the same spot.
Probably because the HEP has to be cut in seperately and sometimes the Engineer forgets.
Isn't it the same 3rd rail power source both north and south of the portal?
He did not switch to electric until the portal. Jersey Mike answered one question, but I still wonder how some cars still had power while others didn't. Unless they're doing some fancy stuff with capacitors on the rehabbed equipment...
the subway was in spin city tonight. The mayo and aid got stuck on the subway for hours.
Did you noticed how it was signed as an A train running from 242 St to Bowling Green? Also, the end car windows had pictures of the next car on them.
I've heard that after the R-143's are delivered, the next set of trains for the B Division will have a designation of R-160. My question is -- who gets the contract: Kawasaki or Bombardier?
I've heard that R-143 deliveries will be coming soon (this summer or thereabouts).
BMTman
Well, Kawasaki is building a huge railcar assembly plant in Lincoln, Nebraska because they expected to buld "a lot of New York Subway cars".
It will open in 2002 to replace the Yonkers facility, probably for obvious reasons.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I guess if Kawasaki leaves the old Otis elevator plant in Yonkers someone else will move in. The old Otis elevator plant must be too small for them at this point and they need a bigger facility. They probably won't only build a lot of New York City subway cars but, they'll build cars for other transit systems as well.
BMTJeff
They could theoretically also go into the mainline railroad car production business, ala St. Louis Car in their heyday.
BMTman
I have one idea for Kawasaki. Have two railcar manufacturing plants. Keep the existing one in Yonkers to help keep the economy healthy in the New York Metropolitan area and build the new facility in Nebraska. This way they have extra capacity when they have to build a lot of rail car. I also have to agree with you that they can go into the mainline railroad car production business just like the St. Louis Car Company in their day. Don't forget about ACF, Pullman Standard and the Budd Car Company. They were all builders of passenger railroad cars in the United States at one time.
BMTJeff
That's not wonderful for us. Manufacturing jobs tied to the NYC economy are one perk we can hand our upstate neighbors in return for cooperation on pro-NYC budget bills...
... and when will that happen? (sarcasam mode)
Arti
I can say with certainty that it might be the the lowest qualified bidder that gets the contract.
Thanks, dude. I thinks I's been edumacated.
:-)
BMTman
My answer is the ONLY true answer. The car has not gone out for bid yet and unless the procurement procedures change radically, the contract will be awarded to the lowest bidder who is deemed qualified. Companies such as Kawasaki and Bombardier are deemed qualified based on past contracts. Other vendors would need to be qualified by what ever procedure is specified.
Train Dude, I can think of another vendor: Damiler-Chrysler. Those guys should expand their business to railcars, since their automobiles ain't selling well.
;-)
BMTman
They just got out of it recently, when they sold off AdTranz to Bombardier.
I nominate the Krispy Kreme people..
You wouldn't give Dunkin' Donuts a shot at it?
Addendum... (thanks Ron!)
I nominate Dunkin Donuts to remodel
and re-activate "stalled" Police Cruisers..
I motion for Krispy Kreme to "sweeten" the
greatest underground rail system on this
side of my 2 canadian pennies.
I think Bombardier or CAF. I bet myself a doughnut on this one.
MMM.Doughnut's. Now I trying to sound like Hommer from that TV show.
Dominick Bermudez.
What company is CAF?
The Spanish car builder who's doing the new DC cars.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The lowest bidder when the contracts are eventually let. The car has not even been spec'ed yet.
-Hank
I'm surprised no one is familiar with the way MTA does business.
Subway cars have been procured on a negotiated bid basis for years now, ever since the R-62s were ordered. Negotiations are limited to qualified builders and to now there are only *two* of those.
Can anyone guess their identity?
As long as no federal funds are involved low bid acquisition is not a requirement.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
.
"Negotiations are limited to qualified builders and to now there are only *two* of those."
I assume you mean Bombardier (either Adtranz or ANF subsidiaries) and Kawasaki.
But there presumably is a certification process, right? If Siemens or Breda Coztruz. Ferroviarri or CAF were to be interested, they could become certified too (if they thought it would be worth the trouble).
Is the same true for bus procurement?
I believe it goes by their record to date, but then again maybe not.
Back before they got into the NY Subway car business, Kawasaki was an eager young company with a good record on the SEPTA light rail project, though not without its criticisms. The reason Kawasaki got the SEPTA contracts were the result of a bare field in light rail bulilders (as local hero Boeing-Vertol went down in flames) and a lone bid on the prescribed specifications...Specs ironically drawn up in the hope Boeing could land the contract! After they got the Kawasaki LRTs in on time and in acceptable order (certainly compared to the LRV!), Kawasaki was low-bid on the Broad Street Subway order. I don't even think Budd was able to respond to that one because tey had too much going on at the time: Amfleet IIs, CTA 2600s and their own BURT for Baltimore and Miami.
Bombardier had even more limited experience prior to the R-62A, including the MR-73 cars for Montreal and IC Highliners for Chicago. Their big thing was SkiDoo! The Bombardier award was entirely political, influenced by a heavy subsidy from the Canadian Government. There were a lot of quality control problems with the earliest R-62As but the TA gradually got them running right, albeit late.
Their previous experience with the TA now makes them preferred vendors, or so I understand it.
I don't know a thing about the bus procurements!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Thanks. Kawasaki did do a nice job on their cars.
Any of you catch Spin City on ABC tonight? Well the mayor gets stuck in the subway, as well as Charlie. I could make out S.Ferry in the roll sign, looked like some sort of old rolling stock not in use.
The stickers on the doors that say "do not hold doors" looked real though. Of course the flashing lights and all were wrong.
Funny how Charlie crawls out of the train and walks 40 blocks in a subway tunnel to see a woman. Yeah I can't blame him, she is quite cute, but probably would want nothing to do with a 5'3 guy like me:-(
Snow is on the way for tomorrow night, but it should only be a few inches. Shouldn't effect trains too much.
You didn't make out South Ferry. The signs read (in different scenes) 'Bowling Green', and '242nd St' I'll slo-mo my tape tonight to triple-check, and get the third sign, which I just can't remember.
The different scenes had the signs in different positions.
-Hank
I thought I saw S.Ferry in a rollsign. I guess maybe I didn't.
When the R-142/142As were down recently, R-62A cars 1661-1670 went back to the 6; at least 10 9400-series World's Fair R-36s went from the 7 to the 6; and 10 9200-series R-33s were moved from the 4 to the 6.
Has this equipment been returned to their respective lines?
There was also a report of a second 9200-series train on the 6 line. Can anyone confirm this or perhaps know which ones?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Don't know if this is any help, but...
1/31/01 - southbound 6, operating motor 9491, north motor 9524
2/2/01 - southbound 6, operating motor 9212, north motor 8955
2/9/01 - southbound 6, operating motor 9227, north motor 9268
2/15/01 - southbound 6, operating motor 9485, north motor 9505
Marc
1/31/01: 9491---9524
This is assigned equipment. No surprise there.
2/2/01: 9212---8955
This is an R-33 train off the #2. There are often anywhere from 1-3 such consists used to fill schedules when required. With the R-142As out of service I'm sure they were required! 9212 is mated with 9225, one of two R-33 mismates that have been around for about 30 years now...Nice catch!
2/9/01: 9227---9268
This is one of the "temporary" trains borrowed from the 4 line. I need the numbers of the second one.
2/15/01: 9485---9505
Again, assigned equipment.
Please keep your eyes peeled. They're out there somewhere:-)
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Yesterday while i was heading home from work & i saw R36WF Lead Car 9457-9456, 9426-9427, 9428-9429, 9404-9405, 9515-9514 on #6 line.
Peace
David Justiniano
Now that's interesting. 9514/15 are assigned to the 6, the rest imported from Flushing.
This must mean they aren't running in complete sets anymore, so please watch for "orange" or "black" colored tape strips. Unless the car numbers are 9478-9493 which stil have their black tape from days on the Flushing line.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
R36 9514-9515 have yellow stickers & the rest have black stickers with purple in the middle.
Peace
David Justiniano
What I have seen in the past couple of weeks:
1661-1670 w/240St Stickers back on the 6.
1896-1890 and 1896-1900( The set that was on the 3 for nearly a year.) is back on the 6.
There are two sets of Jerome Redbirds on the 6 as well.
Thanks very much for the alert regarding 1886-1900. THAT IS NEWS!!
I now have have the numbers of 16 Redbirds off the 4: 9222/23, 9226/27, 9238/39, 9248-51, 9268/69, 9278/79 and 9292/93. Loking for the remaining 4.
Watch for that orange tape!
Thanks very much.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
What I have seen in the past couple of weeks:
1661-1670 w/240St Stickers back on the 6.
1886-1890 and 1896-1900( The set that was on the 3 for nearly a year.) is back on the 6.
There are two sets of Jerome Redbirds on the 6 as well.
Article in the Queens Tribune about redeeming old tokens. Someone should give this guy the address for the US Treasury, so he can turn in those old silver certificates he found for some Sacagawaea dollars.
HEARING about Ebay is one thing..
TRUSTING Ebay is a whole other enchilada.
I an a regular seller and infrequent buyer on Ebay and I have never had any problems. Same goes with my friend. If you have second thoughts just check the feedback reports. They are there for a reason.
Tokens ("exonumia" to the coin collector) are a big ho-hum on eBay. Often won't get face value. Check it out.
Metrocards on the other hand...
...or retired LIRR coaches (one was up there on ebay w/staring price of $2,000).
:-)
BMTman
How does he normally pay his fare to and from work?
If he buys $15.00 MetroCard card each week, the one "bonus" fare on it will pay for a side trip to 370 Jay St. after work. If he uses unlimited-ride cards, then of course there is no problem at all. If he pays $3.00 each day (why would he?), then he will need to spend $4.00 one day to get a Fun Pass instead - a maximum extra expenditure of $1.00.
Six $1.25 tokens are worth $7.50. If it costs a dollar to do the redemption, he will net $6.50. Is it worth the time and effort? That is the real question.
A few months ago, signs appeared on all the MTA buses stating that the "bull's eye" $1.25 tokens would no longer be accepted. Does that mean that they were accepted up until then - "then" being last September, IIRC? If so, this fact was never widely publicized. Were they accepted only by bus fareboxes, or by station agents at subway stations as well? The MTA could certainly have done a better job of letting the public know what the policy on accepting old tokens was.
How does he normally pay his fare to and from work?
I don't know, but my guess is that he buys tokens!
A few months ago, signs appeared on all the MTA buses stating that the "bull's eye" $1.25 tokens would no longer be accepted. Does that mean that they were accepted up until then - "then" being last September, IIRC?
Yes, but I'm not sure if turnstiles wuld have accepted them.
It was well-publicized after the last fare hike that the tokens would be accepted at the booths for redeption for several months after the hike. They were accepted on the buses for a longer period of time, with an additional .25 for the full fare.
It's been nearly 5 years since that fare hike. If you didn't turn them in by now, then you've got no reason to complain.
-Hank
That is so cheap of the MTA to do that. Tokens should be accepted forever, only the price should change. The MTA wastes more money minting new tokens and machines than it makes up in stopping hoarders. You didn't see PATCO replacing all its farecards and stuff when it raised rates.
So just eliminate the token. All that happens is that the Metrocards have a higher value deducted after a certain time when the fare hike goes into effect.
Because you just need to increase the value removed from the farecard; it's a hell of a lot easier. Hence MetroCard.
And they do indeed get more for their money by stopping hoarding on large fare increases. When it went from $1 to $1.15 to $1.25 it went in small increments, over a longer period of time. But the 25c jump was significant enough that the cost of replacing the tokens was exceeded by the expected losses from token hoarding, especially by businesses that may have taken advantage of the situation, and overcharged customers.
-Hank
Remember months ago that I said that the R26/28 & 29 rollsign didn't have #9 signs & that I said that was funny it true because the #9 line didn't existed when the R26/28 & 29 were GOH between 1985,1986 & 1987. Well do the R33ML have #9 on the roll signs because some 33ML were GOH in 1989, 1990, & 1991 so they should have a #9 on the signs because it existed. Also the other day I was on a Redbird on the #4 line on the last car so their was no one but me so I was scrolling the roll sign of the routes guess what they still have the #3 on the signs, see those redbirds should run on the #3 line? The redbirds on the #2 dont have it anymore.
Here is the article from NY1.COM
The short (uptown) Second Avenue line would run from nowhere to nowhere, with no connections to anything else!
The real need is for more trains south of midtown. With the LIRR connection to Grand Central set to open in 2003 or so, where are the people going to fit? Not on the Lexington trains!
If the Second Avenue line terminated at 63rd-59th streets, with connections to the Lexington Avenue stops on both of those routes, it would at least provide some justification for its existence.
Presumably this shortened 2nd Ave line would link in to the 63rd St line. The article may be misinterpreting 68 St as the beginning of the line; I think that would be the first station on the line, not a dead-end at 2nd Ave.
Also, the last MTA plan had the 2nd Ave line angling back westward to Lexington Ave for the 125 St station, so there would be connections to the IRT at 125 St and through-running to the 6 Ave and/or Broadway lines via 63 St.
Your interpretation is correct. The line will probably use the built-in bellmouth in the 63rd St tunnel to turn trains westbound. With a full-length subway, there would probably be a branch turning westbound there as well.
Well, regardless of how I feel about a "stubway" (I like the full-length version much better), my attitude is that I want to see them stop talking and start building. I know they're not going to build exactly what I want, but what the hell...we're dragging Gov. Pataki kicking and screaming into this.
Since the part north of 63rd Street is the most important part of the line, it would be built first anyway. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither was any subway line, they were all opened in stages.
"Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither was any subway line, they were all opened in stages."
That's totally true. Of course, I must amend my original remarks in light of the prelim. engineering document (see my other post on Second Av prelim engineering).
That would make some sense. It still doesn't address the congestion south of 63rd, except if some present east side riders take the 2nd Avenue instead of the Lex downtown. Does nothing for those of us who use Grand Central.
[Does nothing for those of us who use Grand Central]
They have an option to transfer to GC shuttle. Also to whatever 6th Ave train to 42nd Street (crossplatform xfer at 63rd and Lex) could be close enough.
Arti
"They have an option to transfer to GC shuttle. Also to whatever 6th Ave train to 42nd Street (crossplatform xfer at 63rd and Lex) could be close enough."
In the short term, it would have to be enough (we have no choice). In the long term, it would worsen existing crushloads until the lower Manhattan segment of 2nd Av opened.
[In the short term, it would have to be enough (we have no choice). In the long term, it would worsen existing crushloads until the lower Manhattan segment of 2nd Av opened. ]
How would it worsen the crush loads (as opposed to no build option?) Building "the Stubway" has to alleviate something, not every current Lex user from Upper East Side travels to destinations on the East Side, these are the riders you take off the Lex.
Arti
Yes, it will help in the short term. But there is a lot of demand for service to the lower eastern quadrantof Manhattan, beyond what the Lex can handle.
What I saw i the announcement was very short and non-specific, however. This hole discussion may be based on a mistaken impression of what the MTA Board is actually deciding. I'm going to look for more in-depth articles to find out what's really happening.
"These are the riders you take off the Lex."
Granted, there are some. But I assume that the MTA is building the "stubway" to attract more riders from east of Lex., not just to divert riders from Lex.
If these extra riders are going south of 63rd, they will have to use either (a) the Lex., (b) the trains coming through the 63rd Street Tunnel, or (c) the trains coming through the 59th Street tunnel. Some will end up on the Lex.
The only added capacity downtown will be the opening of the express tracks on the N/R/V line.
Personal note -- at the Fulton Street station going north at 5:15 to 5:30, I often have to wait for two or three trains to be able to board.
[Granted, there are some. But I assume that the MTA is building the "stubway" to attract more riders from east of Lex., not just to divert riders from Lex. ]
And what are these people using today?
Arti
And what are these people using today?
The M15 & M31 buses
M31 connecting to Lex I assume. No change.
M15 - perhaps.
Let's also not forget the inconvenience to connect to Lex @ 63rd Street, they could opt to take a bus from there.
Arti
The M31 goes all the way to the west side; they can connect to anything. The most likely transfer point would be at 57 St and 3 Ave or Lexington, to the N/R/4/5 three blocks to the north, or the E/F/6 four blocks to the south.
I agree that getting the northern part of the Second Avenue subway is far, far better than getting nothing. It will help the Lex north of 59th; it will help the M15 bus line.
If there is a connection so that people can take the BMT line down Seventh Avenue and Broadway, that could help get people off the Lex. (Of course, riders on the Lex can change at 59th Street now.)
That's a good point. Upper east siders bound for Wall Street --and there are quite a few -- can take the new line down Broadway on the N/R and get to the same area as the Lex serves downtown. That would help decongest the Lex a lot.
In addition, the Lexington line is paralleled by the Broadway line south of 42 St. A new line is far more necessary for the northern portion, since there is no current alternative east of Central Park.
In addition, the Lexington line is paralleled by the Broadway line south of 42 St.
The lines are paralleled after 14th Street. At 42nd Street, Broadway is on the west side (at 7th Avenue)
If we take an "all or nothing" attituide, we're likely to get nothing. At least the upper portion is a start. And it does more than you might think. It will be a direct line from the upper east side to the western midtown areas.
:-) Andrew
I don't follow you or perhaps you weren't reading my post carefully, I happen to agree with you.
Arti
OOOPS! Sorry! My bad!
:-) Andrew
As well as to Wall Street, via the Broadway line.
That is probably what the article implies. Thus, in my opinion, the Q should run up Broadway, along 63rd, and up 2nd Avenue to 125th.
Read my post on Prelim. Engineering...
Updated Link:
http://www.ny1.com/ny/NewsBeats/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=2&subtopicintid=5&contentintid=10933
Shawn.
The worst part is it won't be "cut & cover", so they'll be throwing away the pieces already in existance.
Personally I don't think they are serious about ever building it.
Mr t__:^)
not according to MTAa contract solicitation: http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/procure/archeng/pdf/cm1188s.pdf
Arti
Joe Malinconico wrote an article in Thursday's Star-Ledger pointing out that passengers are complaining that Transit has announced the impending 15 month closure of one of the two two-track tunnels under Jersey City Heights into Hoboken Terminal without announcing how service will be affected. Repair of the 124-year-old tunnel will begin in June. Transit says they will announce rush hour service changes in March. Possibilities being considered are:
Double the number of trains/minute through the other tunnel
Cancel some trains (up to 12)
Terminate some trains at Newark Broad Street Station
Terminate some Coast Line trains at Newark Penn Station
They could also:
Terminate / originate some Pascack Valley line trains at Harmon Cove, for transfers to Bergen County Line trains (or vice versa).
Combine Metro North Express trains with regular Main/Bergen line trains, and make the trains the maximum length possible (I think 9 cars). Restrict one half of the train to passengers to/from MNRR stations, and the other half to those going to/from NJT stations. It would almost be two separate trains.
Run some Main and Boonton Line trains to/from Newark. Yes, there is a track which connects the "southbound local" track from the Main/Bergen/Boonton tracks to the "northbound local" Morris and Essex line tracks. Obviously no more than maybe two to three trains can do this since it's highly difficult to turn trains at Newark coming from the north. Perhaps they could cross them over to A track before entering the station.
Another story at: www.recordonline.com/archive/2001/02/21/jrtunel.htm
> Main and Boonton Line trains to/from Newark
I just looked at the rail today and it seems to be rather rusted -- it even looked like it had rusted through in one place.
I don't think they'd be willing to replace that section of rail just for a temporary 5-year diversion.
>the maximum length possible (I think 9 cars
The yard is not set up for 9-car trains. They'd have to completely "repaint the lines for the parking spaces"
I am working on rollsigns on equipment (mostly trains, but I will accept buses, too.) in the New York City area (NYCT, NYCB, PATH, etc.) So far, I have made the following signs:
• Redbird Side Signs
• R40-46 GOH End Signs
• R62 End Signs
Currently, I am working, and need some help on
• Redbird End Signs (both pre- and post- 1979)
• R32/38 Fantasy Side Signs
If you have rollsigns from any transit system in the New York City area, I will be pleaded to accept. Please e-mail me at r36_9346@hotmail.com and use the subject "ROLLSIGNS"
All I need is the TEXT of the rollsign, each reading on the sign, and descriptions, (detailed, but not TOO detailed!) Basically just the years, manufacturers, part numbers, etc (what's on the white portion of the sign, beyound the first reading. Here's an example of a reading from a side route sign:
1X. White Airplane in turquoise circle. Text: "JFK\Express"
1N. White Airplane in turquoise circle. Text: "JFK Express"
2X. White A in blue circle. Text: "8 Avenue\Express"
2N. White A in blue circle. Text: "8 Avenue Express"
Number each reading and indicate the following:
• iNterior or eXterior (with N or X, respectively)
• Line breaks with backslashes ("\")
I will use the information to make a page similar to those that are already up. For examples, click here, take the express train to Transfer Point, take the Court Street Shuttle to the Museum, and then click on "Rollsign Gallery".
Credit will be given upon request. It will be shown with unlinked italics next to the link, as in the following example:
Redbird Side Signs submitted by Robert Marrero
The link next to "submitted by" would be for the e-mail address. You may request not to have me link your e-mail to my page.
Well, I think I've said enough and I will be waiting for what comes up.
Oh, BTW, Don't tell me about Joe Korman's site, I already know about it.
I am working on rollsigns on equipment (mostly trains, but I will accept buses, too.) in the New York City area (NYCT, NYCB, PATH, etc.) So far, I have made the following signs:
• Redbird Side Signs
• R40-46 GOH End Signs
• R62 End Signs
Currently, I am working, and need some help on
• Redbird End Signs (both pre- and post- 1979)
• R32/38 Fantasy Side Signs
If you have rollsigns from any transit system in the New York City area, I will be pleaded to accept. Please e-mail me at r36_9346@hotmail.com and use the subject "ROLLSIGNS"
All I need is the TEXT of the rollsign, each reading on the sign, and descriptions, (detailed, but not TOO detailed!) Basically just the years, manufacturers, part numbers, etc (what's on the white portion of the sign, beyound the first reading. Here's an example of a reading from a side route sign:
1X. White Airplane in turquoise circle. Text: "JFK\Express"
1N. White Airplane in turquoise circle. Text: "JFK Express"
2X. White A in blue circle. Text: "8 Avenue\Express"
2N. White A in blue circle. Text: "8 Avenue Express"
Number each reading and indicate the following:
• iNterior or eXterior (with N or X, respectively)
• Line breaks with backslashes ("\")
Don't forget to specify the width of the font!
I will use the information to make a page similar to those that are already up. For examples, click here, take the express train to Transfer Point, take the Court Street Shuttle to the Museum, and then click on "Rollsign Gallery".
Credit will be given upon request. It will be shown with unlinked italics next to the link, as in the following example:
Redbird Side Signs submitted by Robert Marrero
The link next to "submitted by" would be for the e-mail address. You may request not to have me link your e-mail to my page.
Well, I think I've said enough and I will be waiting for what comes up.
Oh, BTW, Don't tell me about Joe Korman's site, I already know about it.
Is there an easy way to get to the Washington St. or Middletown light rail stations from San Diego International Airport? The stations are right next to the airport, but I'm not sure they're accessible. The official website seems to suggest that the only way to get anywhere form the airport is to take the 992 bus all the way into downtown, and then ride out again.
Thanks
Mark
It's true that San Diego Transit only offers bus service to the airport. The 992 is the main express route into downtown; but I can't recall if there are other routes. You don't need any other routes anyway, just take the 992 to Broadway and Kettner Boulevard; then walk to America Plaza station (northeast corner of Broadway & Kettner) or Santa Fe Depot (northwest corner; can't miss it) and catch the Blue Line trolley up Middletown-way. If you choose America Plaza, make SURE you get on the Blue Line, because that station is also served by the Orange Line. Blue Line destination signs will say "Mission San Diego," "Old Town," or, if the Padres are playing at home, "Stadium." Middletown and Washington stations come long before any of those three.
I look into the web site and you could also take but you have to go outside the Airport. Take the 22 Or 23 Bus to the 28 bus to get to the BLUE line Trolley.
(Warning. You might have to pay again when you get to the Trolley.)
Dominick Bermudez.
Trying to get to those bus lines from inside the airport is impossible. They run along a roadway that had controlled access (i.e. Harbor Drive) and there aren't any bus stops within close distance to the terminals.
One just HAS TO take the 992 from the airport to downtown. That's about a 12-15 minute ride.
Rugby's directions are correct -- the walk from the bus stop at Broadway & Kettner to the America plaza SDTI station is less than 300 feet.
There is another way to get there without going "all the way downtown" (a whole 2 miles from SAN Airport....) -- hop on the rental car shuttles for Alamo. They go right to Kettner & Washington. Only thing is, they might make sure you already have a rental contract. (Of course, you could hand the driver a rental contract with a picture of a president or statesman on it and get a ride....)
As the co-birthplace of modern light rail (with Portland), San Diego has been very aware of the lack of a rail connection to their airport.
The terminals are on the other side of the airport from the LRT alignment. I know there has been some talk of getting a spur over there somehow (tunnel?). But then there have been other discussions about completely rebuilding the airport, with the new terminals built on the LRT side. Or building a new airport that isn't so hemmed into an urban location. Last I heard, continuing stalemate.
from the nYCT web site:
11pm Friday to 5am Monday starting 3/2/01. J trains will run from Broad to Essex and Marcy to Jamaica Center. Shuttle bus will connect Marcy and Essex. NYCT suggests taking the A,C, or L .
SEPTA PCC 2753 is in a vacant lot near the Southeast corner of Fourth Avenue and Union Street in Brooklyn. It is missing the trolley pole but otherwisde appears to be in decent condition. It is paintwed in the Red and Blue SEPTA Stripe scheme.
To the sticklers- it is just South of this corner on the East side of Fourth Avenue.
Now how on earth did that SEPTA PCC #2753 got to Brooklyn?
Dominick Bermudez.
It was flatbedded....as is the case with most small railcars.
BMTman
I would have just said very carefully.:-)
And Brooklyn comes full circle.
There is a story behind that PCC.
The owner of that trolley car also owns the building at the corner which is an old historic city building (one of the original City Baths). The PCC will be placed inside the building after renovations are completed to turn it into a restaurant/nightclub. The PCC will go well with the proposed 1940's/50s theme of the club.
The PCC is NOT going to be restored for street running.
BMTman
It is sure taking the owner a long time. The car has been on the lot (which incidentally is just north, not south of Union St.) for at least two years. According to a list of SEPTA cars maintained by a Rev. Geary linked from this website, the car went into service in 1947 and was purchased (along with 4 other SEPTA PCC's by an Eric Richmond. Don't know whether Eric Richmond is involved with this restaurant or not.
Would be sentimental if Union St. & 4th Ave could be linked up with the Red Hook Trolley.
BTW what is the status of the Red Hook Project ???????
Was the platform in the tunnel section of the Bay Ridge Branch the only permenant station along that branch? Did that branch ever see passenger service? Maybe during WW II ?
That tunnel and its platform must have been an expence and not see passengers. About when was that branches busiest time. I suspect WW II.
avid
[Was the platform in the tunnel section of the Bay Ridge Branch the only permenant station along that branch?]
The platform at the Atlantic Ave tunnel is the only one left, but wasn't the only one on the line. When I walked the line with the BMTman we saw evidence of others & structure to support O/H wire. Even after the passenger service ended the NH still brought freight down from CT using their elect. engines. The line was four & two track, but now only one.
Mr t__:^)
My one memory of action on that line since you mention New Haven freights was leaving Canarsie with a set of AB's and running neck and neck with a NH freight with 2 "Virgins" as I called them, ex Virginian locos, for power. Two pieces of history, one 40 years newer though, running side by side..a nice memory.
Thanks for the "shout out" avid.
To answer your question: No, it was not. Check Bob Andersen's site www.lirrhistory.com for specific details on stations and their original locations along the Bay Ridge Line. What I do know is that when Thurston and I did the walk down the line back in fall '99 we found remnants of what may have been the Kouwenhoven Station (near Remsen Ave.). There were short sections of concrete coming out of the ground on the northside of the ROW which indicated a platform of some kind had been there.
The platform at East New York is in such good condition because it was the last one of the Bay Ridge stations in use and is physically part of the tunnel portal.
BMTman
There was passenger service from 1876 to 1924. Read about it here.
Gentlemen all,
Thank you for the information and the lead to the other sites. The virtual tours of the Bay Ridge and High Line Branches were outstanding.
Many thanks
avid
Your welcome.
We aim to please...:-)
BMTman
The old, evil CTA: Escalator at busy Jackson stop on the Red Line is out of service and hasn't been repaired for days, forcing rush hour commuters to climb a long flight of stairs to exit the station.
The new, friendly CTA: Escalator at busy Jackson stop on the Red Line is out of service and hasn't been repaired for days, forcing rush hour commuters to climb a long flight of stairs to exit the station. Signs taped to the wall read, "This escalator is out of service. We apologize for the inconvenience."
-- David
Chicago, IL
A few days. Beats a news clipping I once read from NYCity...escalator at 53rd and Lex OOS for ...did it say months, but too long regardless.the State St. subway isn't that deep; 53rd and Lex is a ways down, quite a ways. CTA still tops in my book.
At least your escalators don't remove small children's feet.
Some of you might be interested in my homepage, which I have made into a transit photo gallery. My ISP gives me 6MB of free space, so its a very simple website, and I'm still quite a novice at web design. I hope to expand the page with more photos as I have the room, and periodically swap photos in and out from different transit tours, museums, or fantrips. Right now I'm featuring photos from the Rockhill Trolly Museum, plus a photo of the GG-1 in Harrisburg.
Don't laugh too hard. I'm new at this. :o)
Next time you might want to compress your image to 50-100k. It makes it a lot easier to download and lets you post more pics. The content of the pic is great. You didn't happen to photograph any of the signals around the station, did you?
I'm still experimenting with my scanner and photo editor. When I reduce the image size, I lose detail and blurriness occurs. Of course, when the image is 150dpi, I lose disk space and increase downlaod time. (Work must have a T-1 or something, 'cause it's far faster than my 56K modem at home.) I will have to find a happy medium as I upload more pix. Also, my HTML editor was only of moderate help too, merely providing me a springboard from which to work. I wasn't thrilled with the way it initially came out, so I ended up hardcoding most of the site myself. If my page ever gets more detailed, I'll have to get more familiar with something like Macromedia Fireworks, or something like it. These programs cost big $$$. If I get to that point, however, most likely I'll have to shell out for a domain name and server space.
I think I have some pictures of the NS signals still in the camera. I'll have to see what develops. [How often is that expression used when actually referring to photo processing? :o) ]
You need to save the .jpg with a compression factor (on a scale of 1-85 with 1 being the least compressed) of about 30-40. Sometimes you can get away with 20 if the picture has a lot of homogenous stuff like sky or snow. If you show a lot of balast 35-40 might be best. I know you'll loose a little definition, but nothing majour. My scanner is set to 150dpi and after I scan the image I save it as a .jpg with a compression factor that gives me something less than 100k. If you start getting 30k you've gone too far. If you want no compression pics for archive storage you save them in .png format (Ping) They have full bitmap quality with non-information loosing compression.
Thanks, Mike. As always, the site will be under construction and undergoing improvements. Next time I hunker-down, I'll take your advice into account.
KP
nice page ! i like all the photos keep up the good work !!!
YO.Keystone Pete. Nice web page you have there. But I got to tell you something. Are you going to add more photos into your website?
Dominick Bermudez.
Thanks to Arti for posting the URL for this report.
Did all of you read it? Two items in there give a strong impression that this is the start of a full length subway.
1) The report specifically mentions United Nations as a station stop and the location of the master control tower for this line.
2) The contract is for the prelim engineering of the line from 129 St (tail tracks only above 125 St.) to 57th Street. The 125th St stop is a terminal with transfers to the Lex, implying the same northern-end alignment as the Stubway proposal. But the option to continue sounds like a contract option, not a build option - that is, if the consultants do a good job on this contract, and want to continue, they can opt to pick up the rest of it - like the TA buying 500 subway cars with an option for 500 more. It doesn't mean, if I'm reading it correctly, that the TA has gone back to its Stubway proposal.
Another interesting point: the contract proposal specifies that the existing 2nd Av tunnel segments north of 63rd Street are to be incorporated into the design! If I recall correctly, these tunnels are not very deep.
Use of the 63rd St. tunnel is not mentioned specifically, but this is a four-page document. I have not read Vollmer Associates' final EIS. If a branch to the 63rd St line were desired, it will have to dive toward the 63rd St line's bellmouth.
OK, time for another letter to MTA to find out if they intend to do that.
A single tunnel might have been more cost-effective for a virgin (all-new) subway, and might have offered a four-track option. But this design utilizes the existing tunnels, which are to be rehabilitated, so I, for one, am happy to accept the compromise.
Ron, as you rapped me for believing in an advocacy group, my impression lately has been formed that, perhaps your confidence in MTA is too high.
[Another interesting point: the contract proposal specifies that the existing 2nd Av tunnel segments north of 63rd Street are to be incorporated into the design! If I recall correctly, these tunnels are not very deep. ]
Practically a very stupid idea, as a train would waste power to accelerate OUT OF THE STATION and then decend to the station...
BTW did anyone notice air conditioned sations are considered?
[A single tunnel might have been more cost-effective for a virgin (all-new) subway, and might have offered a four-track option. But this design utilizes the existing tunnels, which are to be rehabilitated, so I, for one, am happy to accept the compromise. ]
Actually that's my gripe with you! MTA is no God, they need scrutinization!! My earlier post about having some common sense still stands.
Arti
I would like MTA to call the bluff of the advocates, and go back to the four track plan from the 70s. This will be the only Manhattan north-south trunk line that has two tracks.
If it were done cut-and-cover, it may not even be that much more expensive. Then the option of bringing in one of the Bronx lines comes back into play.
If East siders really want improved transit, they should embrace this. Hey, it's the same way their Lex line was built. But the plan now is to expend great sums to tunnel and not disrupt their lives.
and go back to the four track plan from the 70s.
The plan from the 70s is two track, and I think that building four tracks is just a WASTE.
The train would make fewer stops, but still more than an express, and with better designed tracks and signals it can go faster to make up for it.
"The train would make fewer stops, but still more than an express, and with better designed tracks and signals it can go faster to make up for it. "
This is a great opportunity to gear the subway cars for 75 mph, isn't it? The train operators will like that.
The R-44s and R-46s were built for the ability to run that fast along the Second Avenue subway, just like the R-142s and R-143s now.
Although the R-143s will get to do it on the Canarsie Line (only in the tunnel under the river though).
When the program expands to the 7, that would be great.
True, the plan was four to six tracks from the 20s to late 60s. Financial, rather than engineering considerations forced the cut-back.
I maintain that four tracks are needed. The issue isn't speed as much as capacity. There are two four track lines on the west side, and they are full and getting more so. The same will be true on the east side, particularly over time as ridership continues to grow, roads get more congested, the Bronx continues to recover, upper east side residential towers continue to sprout, and midtown continues to push east. Diverting one of the Bronx lines would also provide additional relief to the Lex. (6 becomes express?)
If anything has been proven about the estimates found in the current batch of EISs, it's that the Federal Transit Administration models woefully underestimate demand. Ask the folks on the new Green Line extension in DC. Then there is the inevitable scramble to acquire additional rolling stock. A nation-wide phenomenon. But what happens when a line is already at full theoretical capacity day 1? This is what will happen on an under-built 2nd Ave.
If tunneling isn't required, returning to the sound concepts behind the initial plans are likely to be affordable.
[I maintain that four tracks are needed. The issue isn't speed as much as capacity. There are two four track lines on the west side, and they are full and getting more so]
No other trunk line starts at 125th Street, they have to provide capacity well beyond that. Most of other lines end up 2 tracked (either physically or operationally)in their far end, so would the 2nd Ave Bway express.
Arti
"No other trunk line starts at 125th Street, they have to provide capacity well beyond that. Most of other lines end up 2 tracked (either physically or operationally)in their far end, so would the 2nd Ave Bway express."
A misleading (are you sure it wasn't deliberate :0) ) answer. How many people will get off the Lex at 125 and use the Second Av line? If they do, how many additional people in the Bronx would be encouraged to get on knowing that some capacity relief is in store for them at 125 St?
[How many people will get off the Lex at 125 and use the Second Av line? If they do, how many additional people in the Bronx would be encouraged to get on knowing that some capacity relief is in store for them at 125 St? ]
Probably very few unless it get's them much closer than Lex subway. There's a precedent of QB, Expresses over capacity R under, don't see people taking R just because it's emptier. Transfering takes time and is inconvenient.
Arti
"Probably very few unless it get's them much closer than Lex subway. There's a precedent of QB, Expresses over capacity R under, don't see people taking R just because it's emptier. Transfering takes time and is inconvenient."
I'm betting that's an underestimation because the Second Av subway will cut down three to four long blocks' walk off anyone going to major destinations on the far East Side (Cornell Medical Center, Mount Sinai, the East River). There's several hundred thousand people there who have wanted a line of their own.
Another thing to point out is that B division trains have higher capacity than IRT, also hopefully use of modern signaling would offer higher TPH.
Arti
It appears that the Second Avenue was supposed to be an affluent-only, connecting Manhattan and Queens but not Brooklyn and the Bronx. That is supposed to be the draw. But western Queens isn't as affluent as it was back in 1968.
The reason to make it four tracks is to extend it to the Bronx, taking the Pelham Bay and/or the Dyre Avenue line to Manhattan express, as originally planned. That way, every train from the Bronx would be an express. The Lex Local would get a turnaround at 125th Street. I believe the B division 2nd Avenue could use the Pelham Bay line tunnel and tracks, by shaving down the platforms. One might also run the trains across Wards Island, making the parkland there accessible, perhaps as a stadium location.
At the southern end, the line should be hooked into the Nassau Street line, and then to Brooklyn via the Montigue Tunnel.
If it were up to me, after building a four track 2nd Avenue, I'd excess the BMT Broadway line to the suburbs for a one-seat ride to Lower Manahattan. Metro North would curve off of the Park Avenue tunnel above 63rd Street, then into the Broadway Line off the Central Park Subway, then run down to the three track terminal at City Hall (lower level) via Times Square. The LIRR would curve south off of the Penn Tunnels onto Fifth Avenue, merge in at Madison Square, then run south to Whitehall, taking Metro North transfers as far as Battery Park. With the LIRR to GCT, you'd have a complete network of commuter rail destinations without the subway, all part of a grand plan which would include the Second Avenue.
As part of that plan, trains from the 60th Street tunnel would continue west to a transfer station at Columbus Circle, then onto a connection to the 14th Street line via a north-south 10th Avenue line.
Then, you upzone everywhere the new subways go. Taxes on the new office space on the West Side, and luxury residential towers in East Harlem and the Lower East Side, along with the rise in property values in Lower Manhattan (due to increased accessibility) pays for it all.
[The reason to make it four tracks is to extend it to the Bronx, taking the Pelham Bay and/or the Dyre Avenue line to Manhattan express, as originally planned. That way, every train from the Bronx would be an express. The Lex Local would get a turnaround at 125th Street. I believe the B division 2nd Avenue could use the Pelham Bay line tunnel and tracks, by shaving down the platforms. ]
But there are no plans, nor even public or political pressure to extend 2nd Ave subway to the Bronx. It could be relatively easy as the local tracks at 125th Street are both on the east side. I'm not sure, of fcourse how built up the area is as this connestion would require condemning some buildings around there. Pelham line was built to BMT standards (dual contract,) so shaving back platforms should do it.
[I'd excess the BMT Broadway line to the suburbs for a one-seat ride to Lower Manahattan.]
I'd doubt that current Broadway riders would rejoice that idea. 2nd Ave doesn't go thru as many places of employment as Broadway does, to me it sounds that Brooklyn (N,R) riders would get a shaft with this plan.
Arti
[I'd doubt that current Broadway riders would rejoice that idea. 2nd Ave doesn't go thru as many places of employment as Broadway does, to me it sounds that Brooklyn (N,R) riders would get a shaft with this plan.]
The Broadway line is really problematic--from the perspective of many commuters, it zigs where it should zag and parallels existing lines.
But there are variants of this plan that serve everybody. For example, if one pair of tracks were given over to MNRR, the other could be used for LIRR/superexpress/JFK-LGA loop service from Laurelton/JFK to Jamaica, along the Atlantic Avenue LIRR, through Whitehall, up and back out to LGA and Jamaica. 70 MPH high amenity service at no extra charge within the City, except for a $5 surcharge for reserved airport seating for people with bags (or find a way for the PA to subsidize it without violating the law on use of ticket surcharges--surely there's a way to finesse this sort of thing) and included in the LIRR fare, and would serve LIRR commuters, airport travellers, and Queens and Brooklyn residents. The MN service would also serve local residents in Riverdale, the West Side, and Park Avenue, with service via Hell's Gate to Co-Op City. And all using existing ROW . . .
I'm not sure what the optimal way to arrange the service would be, but I've been thinking about these ideas for a while now and I'm convinced something along these lines could work to everybody's benefit.
Welcome back!
[But there are variants of this plan that serve everybody. For example, if one pair of tracks were given over to MNRR]
Can 85 foot cars negotiate Lower Manhattan curves on that line?
[(or find a way for the PA to subsidize it without violating the law on use of ticket surcharges--surely there's a way to finesse this sort of thing) ]
I fail to comprehend the meaning of the law. Laws in general are supposed to benefit citizenry... I don't get it. Against the law to pay for service? Perhaps Russian Tea Room should be forced to charge McDonald's rates.
As far ras using commuter rail to provide transit, for a change, to New Yorkers, I'm all for it.
Arti
[Can 85 foot cars negotiate Lower Manhattan curves on that line?]
They would have to use 60' or 75' cars, and lose maybe 6" of height as well. They'd also have to have subway style doors to speed station loading, but this I think is way overdue on our commuter lines, which are still run on an open-access/conductor ticketing model that's appropriate for long distance traffic.
It seems to me that we should have a standard short-haul 60' commuter car with subway-style loading for all three commuter RR's, which would share common design elements with the B division subway cars but be FRA and have commuter amenities and the appropriate technical mods to run at high speed on the commuter lines. It would use compatible CBTC technology, with the ultimate goal being technical unification for the commuter RR's and the subway.
[Laws in general are supposed to benefit citizenry... ]
The limitation on use of airport fees has really hurt lots of people. I think it was probably written with good intentions -- to insure that airline ticket fees weren't used to subsidize local transit -- but as is so often the case it was poorly written or twisted by special interests.
"The limitation on use of airport fees has really hurt lots of people. I think it was probably written with good intentions -- to insure that airline ticket fees weren't used to subsidize local transit -- but as is so often the case it was poorly written or twisted by special interests"
Actually, special interests (read: airlines) have tried to ensure that airport fees are used only to benefit themselves. This is why the Second Circuit's decision to uphold AirTrain funding was a victory for citizens. Local transit specifically to the airport is a valid and reasonable use of airport transfer taxes.
I didn't know there was a court decision involved. I thought the airlines changed their mind about blocking it . . .
The airlines did change their minds, but only after the PA started playing hardball with them and their motivations were exposed at community meetings. A very small group of residents continued the appeal, though, and the Second Circuit Court of Appeal upheld the FAA funding decision and its rationale.
Oh, was that the group that was opposed to the Van Wyck? The fellow behind that used to post here or on NYC transit, forget which. They had a moral point if not a legal one -- it seems the Van Wyck was chosen over the Rockaway ROW because the NIMBY's were poor.
"Oh, was that the group that was opposed to the Van Wyck? The fellow behind that used to post here or on NYC transit, forget which. They had a moral point if not a legal one -- it seems the Van Wyck was chosen over the Rockaway ROW because the NIMBY's were poor."
They had neither. The Van Wyck routing was chosen because the LIRR Rockaway branch's use is implausible without additional tunnel capacity to Manhattan (which it may get by 2010-2, if everything goes on schedule). AirTrain, in contrast, will be ready in early 2003. The moral point was moot too, since the majority of their neighbors actually had no problem at all with the project (we're talking about 24 people at most out of a couple of hundred thousand being opposed to it). Construction subsequently went very well, with little disruption and only minor inconvenience. Rockaway Blvd. is being rebuilt, schools received $76 million in new soundproofing, and York College was funded by the PA to start an aviation institute. The "poor" got a lot for their trouble (what little of it they had). A few houses suffered minor damage, and claims were paid. Pile driving on the Van Wyck was completed in a just a few months. This issue has been beaten to death; see the archives for the whole history.
Poverty had nothing to do with this; most of the "controversy" was manufactured by the airlines.
[They had neither. The Van Wyck routing was chosen because the LIRR Rockaway branch's use is implausible without additional tunnel capacity to Manhattan (which it may get by 2010-2, if everything goes on schedule).]
What does tunnel capacity in Manhattan have to do with using the Rockaway branch? There's plenty of tunnel capacity for Airtrain--LIRR capacity is limited by the operation of Penn Station, not by tunnel capacity. And there are some very attractive alternative means of getting Airtrain into the city, e.g., via the Atlantic Avenue branch and the existing subway infrastructure. Meanwhile, NY State is soliciting proposals to run Airtrain into Penn, over the TA's objection.
And I think I'd find that argument more convincing if the Airtrain tracks at Jamaica didn't head *away* from the City. LOL, can anyone say "Train to the Plane"?
[They had neither. The Van Wyck routing was chosen because the LIRR Rockaway branch's use is implausible without additional tunnel capacity to Manhattan (which it may get by 2010-2, if
everything goes on schedule).]
(What does tunnel capacity in Manhattan have to do with using the Rockaway branch? There's plenty of tunnel capacity for Airtrain--LIRR capacity is limited by the operation of Penn Station, not by
tunnel capacity.)
I think you guys are missing a couple of points.
First, the Port Authority, and the airlines (to the extent they want anything), wanted a separate system. At the time (late 1980s), the subway was still thought of as a way for minorities to get to and from the scene of the crime. These folks envisions an airport FULL of homeless and other undesirables. The Port Authority doesn't think about London, Chicago, and other cities with direct connections. They think of the airtrain as something like a horizontal elevator. They think of airports with internal transit systems for getting around the airport, to the parking lot, etc.
Jamaica, to them, is just an extension of the on-airport system to a transit hub. The Port Authority is against the one-seat ride as we see it. They think of Jamaica as part of the airport, so you have a one-seat ride from there. They want small vehicles, with frequent service on their ROW, rather than big trains less frequently. You transfer to the big trains.
Second, there is the Long Island issue. Most people in Nassau and Suffolk will probably not take transit to the airport, but they certainly weren't going to allow New York to have a one-seat ride rather than them having that option. People from Nassau and Suffolk can transfer at Jamaica.
So we lost that battle. One thing we perhaps ought to do now is push for two things. A reasonable fare on the airtrain for transit transfers, rather than the $5.00 some have suggested. And a continuation to LaGuardia (with a stop in Flushing) and into Queens Plaza in accordance with the original Port Authority plan. This would allow a wider range of riders to get to BOTH airports with ONE transfer rather than two, and with a shorter subway rider.
One thing we perhaps ought to do now is push for two things. A reasonable fare on the airtrain for transit transfers, rather than the $5.00 some have suggested. And a continuation to LaGuardia (with a stop in Flushing) and into Queens Plaza in accordance with the original Port Authority plan. This would allow a wider range of riders to get to BOTH airports with ONE transfer rather than two, and with a shorter subway rider.
Very few if any people have reason to transfer between the two airports.
Building direct transit access to LaGuardia airport is problematic for another reason. It is already at full capacity and bears the dubious distinction of being the most delay-prone major airport in the United States. Which means that people - too many people - already are willing to go there even without transit access. That doesn't sound like a compelling case for spending billions on a train line to the airport.
[Very few if any people have reason to transfer between the two airports. Building direct transit access to LaGuardia airport is problematic for another reason. It is already at full capacity and bears the dubious distinction of being the most delay-prone major airport in the United States.]
A very interesting couple of points:
1. very few need to transfer ... on what do you base that ?
I would have assumed that many folks coming in on "local" flights would have the need to TRANSFER to get the "international" flights.
It is true that JFK does tollerate more local flights then it used to, but I still question your "few" comment.
2.The airport is a full capacity so we shouldn't add mass transit access? That sounds like a ... if I ignore it, it will go away policy. To me the number flights in/out and delays is a different issue from easy access to the airport ? Do you work for Carry Bus by any chance
Mr t__;-)
I agree. I suspect there are lots of people who need to transfer from domestic to int'l flights between the 2 airports. Wouldn't the PA have some stats on this?
Ever have a flight cancelled only to find out the next best thing leaves for that other airport, you know the one without your car in long term parking?
Actually, for the Port Authority (with its airport only system thinking) the JFK to LGA link was very important important in the original plan, since many people transfer from international flights at JFK to domestic flights at LGA. Remember, most domestic-only carriers don't due JFK, and virtually no foreign airlines land at LGA.
The Port Authority runs buses, with fairly frequent service, between the two airports, and has to truck baggage changes. Some people take cabs. Of course, all of this between-airport traffic gets nailed by the Van Wyck.
But Peter is right about the present. There is capacity at JFK, none at LGA, and there is an attempt to beef up JFKs domestic flights. One logical market is those people who are already there, off an international carrier. Perhaps some of the discount airlines will partner with air Quatar, etc, and start flying out of JFK.
[But Peter is right about the present. There is capacity at JFK, none at LGA, and there is an attempt to beef up JFKs domestic flights. One logical market is those people who are already there, off an international carrier. Perhaps some of the discount airlines will partner with air Quatar, etc, and start flying out of JFK.]
I read an article in the Times that suggested that people have already started moving to JFK since the Feds opened up the slots and turned LGA into a parking lot.
"Building direct transit access to LaGuardia airport is problematic for another reason. It is already at full capacity and bears the dubious distinction of being the most delay-prone major airport in the United States. Which means that people - too many people - already are willing to go there even without transit access. That doesn't sound like a compelling case for spending billions on a train line to the airport."
That's greart logic Peter. You've just negated the most important reasons to have built subways in the first place. Transit access would help reduce air pollution, reduce crowding on the roads, and with a good plan, provide subway access to neighborhoods like East Elmhurst which truly need it. People are willing to go to La Guardia without a train, but if a train is built they will use it too. "Too many people" at the airport? Who appointed you to decide how many is too many.
You gave away your real motivation, Peter. You really want the airport shut down, and investing in a transit line there will signal just the opposite.
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Responses
"Building direct transit access to LaGuardia airport is problematic for another reason. It is already at full capacity and bears the dubious distinction of being the most delay-prone major airport in the United States. Which means that people - too many people - already are willing to go there even without transit access. That doesn't sound like a compelling case for spending billions on a train line to the airport."
That's greart logic Peter. You've just negated the most important reasons to have built subways in the first place. Transit access would help reduce air pollution, reduce crowding on the roads, and with a good plan, provide subway access to neighborhoods like East Elmhurst which truly need it. People are willing to go to La Guardia without a train, but if a train is built they will use it too. "Too many people" at the airport? Who appointed you to decide how many is too many.
You gave away your real motivation, Peter. You really want the airport shut down, and investing in a transit line there will signal just the opposite.
I certainly don't want to shut down LaGuardia. But what would make sense is to reduce the number of flights using it, in favor of Newark and Kennedy. Both of the latter, Kennedy in particular, have available capacity (Kennedy is slot-controlled, but it's crowded only during a relatively short time frame when international flights arrive and leave). LaGuardia cannot be expanded. It's hemmed in by the Grand Central Parkway and Flushing Bay, and only one runway can be used at a time. So it makes sense to get more people to use Kennedy, and that's where Airtrain might help. Encouraging more people to use LaGuardia simply will lead to more delays.
"I certainly don't want to shut down LaGuardia. But what would make sense is to reduce the number of flights using it, in favor of Newark and Kennedy. Both of the latter, Kennedy in particular, have available capacity (Kennedy is slot-controlled, but it's crowded only during a relatively short time frame when international flights arrive and leave). LaGuardia cannot be expanded. It's hemmed in by the Grand Central Parkway and Flushing Bay, and only one runway can be used at a time. So it makes sense to get more people to use Kennedy, and that's where Airtrain might help."
OK, now we're on the same page. I agree with you so far; in fact there is broad consensus in Queens that there are too manty flights at LGA.
" Encouraging more people to use LaGuardia simply will lead to more delays."
That is a non-sequiter. The flight load at La Guardia is not determined by whether or not it has transit access. Capping flights at La Guardia is a reasonable and understandable goal, but that is a separate question involving the FAA and the Port Authority. Offering subway service to the airport will encourage existing customers to use mass transit, which will ease road traffic in the area and improve local air quality; you can still justify restricting flights. If you succeed in that, the neighbors will thank you for both reducing noise in the air and the traffic jams near their homes on the ground.
By the way, one interesting development happened at LGA recently: Delta, operator of Delta Shuttle, announced that it is withdrawing all 727 aircraft (Stage II noise levels, very loud) and replacing them with stage III aircraft (I believe next-generation 737's, which in fact are quieter than Stage III standards). As the Shuttle is a high-frequency operator, this is good news. I hope other airlines follow suit soon (they should, if only because the 727 is a gas guzzler).
Encouraging more people to use LaGuardia simply will lead to more delays.
That is a non-sequiter. The flight load at La Guardia is not determined by whether or not it has transit access. Capping flights at La Guardia is a reasonable and understandable goal, but that is a separate question involving the FAA and the Port Authority. Offering subway service to the airport will encourage existing customers to use mass transit, which will ease road traffic in the area and improve
local air quality; you can still justify restricting flights. If you succeed in that, the neighbors will thank you for both reducing noise in the air and the traffic jams near their homes on the ground.
I suppose I should try to re-word what I mean. Right now, the airlines offer a large number (too high a number) of flights to LaGuardia at least in part because that's what people want. LaGuardia is the closest airport to Manhattan by taxi, limousine, van or whatever. But they probably would prefer to divert more flights to Kennedy, because that would mean fewer delays. Not enough people want to use Kennedy right now because it's too remote from Manhattan. If Airtrain works well, it's possible that we'll see greater acceptance of Kennedy among the public. No doubt the airlines would happily follow suit, shifting flights to Kennedy from LaGuardia and improving their "on-time" numbers.
Now I think you've got it exactly right.
Well, Larry, you're in usual form, seeing conspiracies and evil intent in the world, inventing it if you can't find what you want.
Yes, the PA thought of Jamaica Station as an extension of the airport terminal - that's fine. And they decided on their own system when they concluded that the MTA would not be building true airport access any time soon.
A one-seat ride was in the works, until a $5.6 billion estimate got it the way. The current plan fit the available budget, and it's close enough to a one seat ride (esp. since Jamaica is fully elevator-equipped and AirTrain will be too) so that even referring to that silly.
We may have missed a couple of points, Larry, but as usual, you're not even in the ballpark.
The plan that cost 5.6 billion dollars for a one seat ride from the airport to Manhattan is a mystery to me. There are transit lines and LIRR lines within 3 miles of the JFK airport terminals. How could a 3 mile connection of at grade railroad track electrified with 1904 technology probably with a station on a former parking lot cost 5.6 billion dollars? The most expensive SUBWAY construction in the US to date in earthquake prone LA was 250 million per mile. The numbers just don't add up.
The plan that cost 5.6 billion dollars for a one seat ride from the airport to Manhattan is a mystery to me. There are transit lines and LIRR lines within 3 miles of the JFK airport terminals. How could a 3 mile connection of at grade railroad track electrified with 1904 technology probably with a station on a former parking lot cost 5.6 billion dollars? The most expensive SUBWAY construction in the US to date in earthquake prone LA was 250 million per mile. The numbers just don't add up.
Welcome to New York.
In order to answer that question we would need to consider every element of the original plan, which is not in front of us. Intuitively, it does seem inflated, but trying to come to a conclusion about that plan is silly without any facts in front of us. The $1.5 billion estimate for the current AirTrain plan, on the other hand, is more in line with reality, and in fact, construction so far has gone very well.
LA's subway construction suffered from a kind of incompetence that even New Yorkers have been spared.
LA's problem was claiming they could build at $100m/mile. When it was $250m/mile, financial catastrophe. NY says $1b/mile, and is unlikely to have to eat it's words.
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On earlier points, restricting land-side access to address an air-side capacity issue at LGA makes no sense. JFK and especially EWR are filling up, should we halt construction of rail access to them? Build direct rail links to Stewart or Westchester instead? Have the region rely on instead on existing rail links to airports in Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington ... and O'Hare? The caps are going back on at LGA, and the air-side capacity issue is getting back to equilibrium.
Also, the reason Rockaway wasn't used for the Airtrain didn't have to do with tunnel capacity. They could have run Airtrains to Woodside via Rockaway and have an interchange there just as they are now running them to Jamaica via Van Wyck (note the main line's 6 track capacity in this section, as the Rockaway Branch went almost all the way to Woodside). Having walked Rockaway, I believe it was all about environmental impacts. You go through a lot of back yards in Rego Park, Forest Hills, Richmond Hill and Woodhaven. If trains did somehow survive all the challenges, they would creep along at low speeds.
The bottom line is that airlines have fought paying for ground-side access everywhere in the country, and the PA should be applauded for taking them on. They annexed Van Wyck into the airport as their property, and built the link with their money. If we insisted on a one-seat ride, the PA couldn't annex all the way to Manhattan without losing in court, and the MTA would have it stuck with the 2nd Ave, East Side Access, #7 extension, etc. projects.
When ESA is built, one-seat trips from Penn Station and GCT. Until then, a huge improvement over what we now have. In the meantime the PA has done airports across America wanting rail access a huge favor by taking on the airlines.
"Also, the reason Rockaway wasn't used for the Airtrain didn't have to do with tunnel capacity. They could have run Airtrains to Woodside via Rockaway and have an interchange there just as they are now running them to Jamaica via Van Wyck (note the main line's 6 track capacity in this section, as the Rockaway Branch went almost all the way to Woodside)."
OK - I did not think of it this way. You and I were not talking about the same thing. I was referring to running an additional train direct to Manhattan. Your description showed me I was having some "tunnel vision" (a very narrow definition). Thank you - yes, you could set up, theoretically, a service terminating in eastern Queens where passengers would have to transfer to Manhattan or LI-bound trains.
"Having walked Rockaway, I believe it was all about environmental impacts. You go through a lot of back yards in Rego Park, Forest Hills, Richmond Hill and Woodhaven. If trains did somehow survive all the challenges, they would creep along at low speeds."
These problems are not trivial. They highlight, in fact the advantage of the Van Wyck ROW in that there is a more than adequate distance between the trains and anybody's backyard, and where noise abatement technology is being used effectively. That, plus the ambient din of the Wan Wyck itself, and it's easy to see why most residents would not have a problem with a Van Wyck service.
The bottom line is that airlines have fought paying for ground-side access everywhere in the country, and the PA should be applauded for taking them on. They annexed Van Wyck into the airport as their property, and built the link with their money. If we insisted on a one-seat ride, the PA couldn't annex all the way to Manhattan without losing in court, and the MTA would have it stuck with the 2nd Ave, East Side Access, #7 extension, etc. projects.
When ESA is built, one-seat trips from Penn Station and GCT. Until then, a huge improvement over what we now have. In the meantime the PA has done airports across America wanting rail access a huge favor by taking on the airlines. "
Bravo! I might nitpick over a few of your details, but you've painted a true picture of what happened. The PA did the right thing here, and you can bet other cities are looking to it for example.
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It struck me as I walked the Rockaway: if these folks wanted to have transit come back, they certainly are capable of advocating it for themselves. If they wished to clamor for something immediately, they could start with reopening the abandoned Woodhaven station on the LIRR Atlantic line at very little expense.
Manhattan's upper east side sure has demonstrated how to effectively make the "imby" argument.
Other than the romance of reinstituting service on an abandoned row -- that is tantalizingly still in place and fully grade-separated -- there is no reason to bring back the Rockaway.
"It struck me as I walked the Rockaway: if these folks wanted to have transit come back, they certainly are capable of advocating it for themselves. If they wished to clamor for something immediately, they could start with reopening the abandoned Woodhaven station on the LIRR Atlantic line at very little expense.
Manhattan's upper east side sure has demonstrated how to effectively make the "imby" argument"
You're very perceptive, and it's geat to read a post from somebody who appreciates a "can-do" attitude.
"Other than the romance of reinstituting service on an abandoned row -- that is tantalizingly still in place and fully grade-separated -- there is no reason to bring back the Rockaway."
It is tantalizing, isn't it? Maybe one day we can use it - or rather create a new ROW under it - ah, but that's another fantasy...
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You are correct. I should have said there is no reason to bring back the Rockaway -- *in the short or medium term*.
By all means save the ROW. And the Putnam. And every other corridor we can preserve. They are impossible to reinstitute once gone. Who knows what the future may bring.
Ron, I don't usually take the same critical view of Larry's comments. He does have a specific opinion about things, but usually it's based on facts. I'm not saying I always agree or even read every post.
My point is that he seems to love to debate. BTW, I have the same feeling about you. So I suggest you either debate or ignore him, but don't throw rocks. There are others here who deserve that, but not you, Larry, Peter, etc.
Mr t__:^)
[Jamaica, to them, is just an extension of the on-airport system to a transit hub. The Port Authority is against the one-seat ride as we see it. They think of Jamaica as part of the airport, so you have a one-seat ride from there. They want small vehicles, with frequent service on their ROW, rather than big trains less frequently. You transfer to the big trains.]
I think there's a big difference between running the subways into the airports and running the Airtrain into Manhattan. The Airtrain to Penn (or wherever) would be a premium, "extension of the airport" service, not a subway. And I think it's important to maintain that as an option, because you're serving too groups with different needs--wealthy air travelers with bags, and airport employees/backpackers.
OTOH I think the PA and airlines are justified in their concern over skells. And as much as I may personally dislike the attitude of those middle class people who don't want to ride with brown faces, travellers with bags do have genuine security concerns.
Personally, I think a $5 Airtrain coming into Manhattan and linking up with the JMZ and A with a free transfer is the best solution, but I can see the attractiveness of the airports to skells and if that became a problem I would grudgingly acknowledge the need for an additional fare. Not that my opinion on these things matters, but from what I've read I gather that unless some things have changed, New York State is dead set on having one-seat Airtrain service to Penn and has solicited proposals. I have the feeling that they let the PA have its way--with some modifications--just to get the damn thing built after years of squabbling, knowing that service to Jamaica will be the equivalent of the Train to the Plane. And IIRC the PA didn't object to the one seat ride plan, although the MTA did (because of the LIRR schedules).
"OTOH I think the PA and airlines are justified in their concern over skells."
Except that Chicago's airports, both of which are connected to the city by $1.50 direct rapid transit links -- not $5 commuter rail like Philadelphia, or an indirect "people-mover" link like Airtrain -- are not overrun with "skells".
If I recall correctly, the Chicago police introduced police dogs to the subway a few years back and publicized the fact that, among other places, they woulsd be patrolling O'Hare and Midway Airport subway trains.
[If I recall correctly, the Chicago police introduced police dogs to the subway a few years back and publicized the fact that, among other places, they woulsd be patrolling O'Hare and Midway Airport subway trains.]
One of Giuliani's complaints against the PA is that the PA police do a mediocre job of policing Kennedy Airport, driving the City's crime statistics up.
There's probably some kernels of truth to the complaint - trouble is, it gets lost in Guiliani's posturing. Guiliani wants to win a p---g contest with the PA.
There's not a violent crime problem at any NY airport. The main problems include pickpockets and car breakins. The PA is correct that some statistics actually reflect overdue rental cars which have not been returned. This does not excuse them for inadequate patrolling, however. As to how inadequate it is, I think that's a point of contention.
There's not a violent crime problem at any NY airport. The main problems include pickpockets and car breakins. The PA is correct that some statistics actually reflect overdue rental cars which have not been returned. This does not excuse them for inadequate patrolling, however. As to how inadequate it is, I think that's a point of contention.
The long-term lot at Kennedy airport has guards stationed in towers as well as patrolling in vehicles. I don't see how the patrolling could be any better. As far as pickpocketing is concerned, it happens at any airport, along with luggage theft.
[There's probably some kernels of truth to the complaint - trouble is, it gets lost in Guiliani's posturing.]
My take on Giuliani's posturing is that he does it to fix a bad situation when he doesn't have control over a bureaucracy, e.g., the Board of Education or the Port Authority. It gets the problem in the papers and on the news, and public pressure does the rest.
"My take on Giuliani's posturing is that he does it to fix a bad situation when he doesn't have control over a bureaucracy, e.g., the Board of Education or the Port Authority. It gets the problem in the papers and on the news, and public pressure does the rest."
That's all well and good if you have a bad situation. The Port Authority is not by definition a bad situation, any more than the Board of Ed or the city is. The PA doesn't do everything right, nor do they do everything wrong. Ditto for the city. It's not clear that Guiliani has made his case on the facts.
(The Port Authority is not by definition a bad situation, any more than the Board of Ed or the city is. The PA doesn't do everything right, nor do they do everything wrong. Ditto for the city. It's not clear that Guiliani has made his case on the facts.)
The issue is money: all this other stuff is a sideshow. The Mayor has a temper, and the work "Port Authority"
The Port Authority has been very good for New Jersey, and very bad for New York City, since the recession of the early 1990s, when it cancelled major capital improvements in New York City, and used NYC airport profits, to keep NJ's fares and tolls lower than subway fares and TBTA tolls.
I don't think they were that bad before that, although others disagree. Nor do I accept the argument that New York is to blame for allowing itself to be ripped off. That's what a Port Authority person told me. She said that if New York pays attention and fights, it should get equal treatment. Heads you lose, tails you're even.
I believe that NYC may get a reasonable deal out of the next capital plan because the City is threatening to take back the airports is 2015. If a new lease is signed, then Port Authority fares and tolls in New Jersey will not be raised again, even if that means the electricity is cut off at JFK and LGA in order to get more profits to transfer.
"The Port Authority has been very good for New Jersey, and very bad for New York City, since the recession of the early 1990s, when it cancelled major capital improvements in New York City, and used NYC airport profits, to keep NJ's fares and tolls lower than subway fares and TBTA tolls."
Those low fares helped build PATH ridership and kept cars off our streets. It also made Manhattan's business district attractive to people living in Jersey City, which isn't bad for New York at all. It also (to some extent) helped MTA ridership, since some travelers don't finish their trips on PATH.
"Nor do I accept the argument that New York is to blame for allowing itself to be ripped off. That's what a Port Authority person told me. She said that if New York pays attention and fights, it should get equal treatment. Heads you lose, tails you're even."
The PA person was being realistic. Every agency has a number of constituencies in it, and they compete for priority in the budget. In the police department, one pricinct will complain it doesn't get as much as another. ESU gets more money than Street Crimes - or whatever (I'm just using that for example). NYC has to share some of the responsibility for this. One of the problems is the relationship between Albany and NYC, historically not always good. I'm not saying that PA management couldn't have been more even-handed. But I am saying that the "NJ gets everything" way of looking at this is simplistic and naive.
Do you personally know someone in NJ?
Arti
[It also (to some extent) helped MTA ridership, since some travelers don't finish their trips on PATH.]
Not necessarily a good thing, since we lose money on each of those rides!
"Not necessarily a good thing, since we lose money on each of those rides! "
No, actually, we don't. The subway actually breaks even. NYC Transit as a whole loses money because buses lose money.
And the Express service looses a whole lot more then the local bus routes. Some of the local runs actually make money.
Mr t__:^)
[The subway actually breaks even. ]
Are you sure? It could break "even" after including .25% MTA sales tax and not taking account the capital improvements, but not really in the sense traditional businesses break even.
Arti
"Are you sure? It could break "even" after including .25% MTA sales tax and not taking account the capital improvements, but not really in the sense traditional businesses break even."
The MTA tax feeds the whole system, not just the subway.
Last year, the subway actually collected fares which were roughly equal to its operating expenses. The reason is ridership.
And yes, Arti, this "break-even" is the same as a business "break-even." No other system in the US comes close to this performance.
[Last year, the subway actually collected fares which were roughly equal to its operating expenses. The reason is ridership. ]
I'm impressed, do you have a source of that information?
Still it doesn't take account the capital improvements.
Arti
"Still it doesn't take account the capital improvements"
That is correct. We are not talking about building new stations, the 63rd St Connector or major station renovations. However, since some of those are paid for by fare-backed bonds, riders do support some of that cost.
I've argued that in addition to breaking even on operating costs a couple of years ago (may not be true with wage increases and fare cuts), the subways also break even on an "auto-equivalent" basis.
That is, deduct the cost of the ROW, the equivalent of a road, and the cost of maintaining the stations, which are a local amenity like a park or library. Then compare the fare revenue to the cost of buying (capital), maintaining (Car Equipment department), operating (Rapid Transit Operations train and signal personnel), and powering the trains, and providing passenger information and collecting fares (ie. station agents). I believe the subway can, and should, break even on that basis. Same with the commuter railroads and the PATH.
The state should pay for maintaining the ROWs -- they are the equivalent of the state roads we pay for but for the most part do not have. The City should pay to maintain and rehab the stations.
As for the buses, they are a social service for those too old, too young, too sick, or too poor to drive, both here and elsewhere. As Thurston says, there are probably some profitable routes, but for the most part they are ordered to provide an unprofitable service.
Larry, that is probably one of the best posts I have ever read! I agree with you 100% - let's face it, highways are heavily subsidized but people only look at transit subsidies when they swing budget axes.
As for the buses, they are a social service for those too old, too young, too sick, or too poor to drive, both here and elsewhere. As Thurston says, there are probably some profitable routes, but for the most part they are ordered to provide an unprofitable service.
Ironically, the bus routes which are the biggest money losers are the express runs for commuters - whose riders, for the most part, are neither old, nor young, nor sick nor poor.
I've taken Liberty Lines back from the Bronx on a few occasions in the late evening because it offered me nearly a straight shot to the LIRR. I guess I could have taken the D train, but at 9PM the bus seemed faster. There was no traffic jam holding us up. On two occasions, there were three people on the bus (including me).
(Ironically, the bus routes which are the biggest money losers are the express runs for commuters - whose riders, for the most part, are neither old, nor young, nor sick nor poor. )
Back in the day, express buses did break even.
Then they started losing passengers to improved subways, and politicians started putting routes in influential neighborhoods that didn't want to use them, just wanted them there. Ie. the new routes in Staten Island, which the MTA did not want, and which they will have to use subway fares to support.
Back in the day, express buses did break even.
Then they started losing passengers to improved subways, and politicians started putting routes in influential neighborhoods that didn't want to use them, just wanted them there. Ie. the new routes in
Staten Island, which the MTA did not want, and which they will have to use subway fares to support.
Is lack of ridership really the issue? I had thought that the problem with express buses was that the drivers spend several hours in the middle of the day doing nothing and getting paid for it.
(Is lack of ridership really the issue? I had thought that the problem with express buses was that the drivers spend several hours in the middle of the day doing nothing and getting paid for it. )
Yes and no. The peaking pattern hurts, as it does all mass transit, but at one time the high fare covered it. Now that you have less fear of crime (and fewer old time whites who are unwilling to ride the subway as a result of prior unpleasent experiences) in the southern rim of Brooklyn and parts of Queens, ridership is going down.
(re express bus service) Now that you have less fear of crime (and fewer old time whites who are unwilling to ride the subway as a result of prior unpleasent experiences) in the southern rim of Brooklyn and parts of Queens, ridership is going down.
I suppose this is the one case in which declining ridership is something good!
Ridership on the buses is up just as it is in the subways.
The problem with the express is: rush hour traffic is one way, so that bus comes back almost empty (there's no place to park it in NYC, plus you wnat the driver to park it at the depot so he goes off the clock).
In addition Rudy REDUCED the fare just before his re-election ... and it wasn't because the cost went down.
DIsclaimer: Speaking just for myself here.
Mr t__:^)
[No, actually, we don't. The subway actually breaks even. NYC Transit as a whole loses money because buses lose money.]
Only operating expenses. If you include capital investment, which is a big hunk of it, the subway loses money.
Also, commuters use peak period service so the cost of serving them may be higher than average.
And NJ commuters take buses, too . . .
"Only operating expenses. If you include capital investment, which is a big hunk of it, the subway loses money."
Yes, that is correct.
"Also, commuters use peak period service so the cost of serving them may be higher than average.
And NJ commuters take buses, too . . . "
Yes, correct.
[The PA doesn't do everything right, nor do they do everything wrong. ]
PA's focus is NJ, IMHO mostly due to the political pressure from NJ pols.
Arti
That was probably true until recent years -- but perhaps one good result of Giuliani's posturing is that PA is paying much more attention to JFK now than Neweark. Witness complete renovation of major termninals at JFK, road improvements, as well as AirTrain. PA should be praised for actually building a new rail line in NYC. Who else has done that lately? (63rd St. connecter doesn't count -- hardly a new line.)
That was probably true until recent years -- but perhaps one good result of Giuliani's posturing is that PA is paying much more attention to JFK now than Neweark. Witness complete renovation of major termninals at JFK, road improvements, as well as AirTrain. PA should be praised for actually building a new rail line in NYC. Who else has done that lately? (63rd St. connecter doesn't count -- hardly a new line.)
Not all of the new terminal construction at JFK is actually the Port Authority's doing. Terminal One, completed a couple of years ago, was built by the three or four foreign airlines that use it - Air France and Korean Air are the two I can think of. The new American Airlines terminal, now in the early stages of construction, is that airline's project. Granted, there may be some Port Authority funding involved, and the new International Arrivals terminal that's nearing completion is, IIRC, a Port Authority project.
Airtrain, of course, is also strictly the Port Authority's doing, and they indeed should be commended for getting something done.
[perhaps one good result of Giuliani's posturing is that PA is paying much more attention to JFK now]
I think you're right. As Ron pointed out, "One of the problems is the relationship between Albany and NYC, historically not always good." The Governor of New York doesn't care enough to fight for the City. The Mayor is the fellow who cares, and he has no power. So Giuliani used the press, and threatened the PA with loss of the lucrative airport leases. It worked beautifully. That's one of the things I like about Giuliani -- some people think he postures like this for publicity or because he's an asshole, but I think he does it for good reason.
I like your analysis. You illustrated an angle I hadn't completely worked out in my head.
A lot of people say that. In my opinion, that view is controversial, since some of the "favors" New Jersey gets actually help us. For example, a low fare on PATH helped build ridership, which in turn kept those people out of their cars (and off Manhattan streets) and made jobs in Manhattan more attractive to them. An example of this is are all the people in Jersey City who live near PATH for that purpose. It also helped build MTA ridership, since some of those arriving by PATH continue their trip on NYC subways (this may not be a huge number, since PATH visits large employment centers, but it is there).
Another example is the investment in Newark Airport. Beginning this summer, commuter rail will connect Manhattan to that airport, and there is a feasibility study aimed at a PATH connection along the same ROW. When you consider that the public consensus in NY is that the number of flights from La Guardia should be restricted, the creation of a Manhattan-friendly alternatives at Newark and JFK (which is getting AirTrain and billions in new terminals and cargo facilities) makes sense.
There are some legitimate gripes. Port Newark gets a lot of attention at the cost of the Port of New York. Others have been voiced. But as I've shown you, it's not as one-sided as you think it is.
Don't forget low tunnel tolls.
Arti
I didn't forget that. I said there was some merit to the complaint, and that's one legit gripe.
But PATH will reach 74 million annual passenger trips, up from 64 million just a few years ago. And PATH is going to a $2 fare now.
It's still less than NJT.
Arti
[It's still less than NJT.]
And it's still heavily subsidized by the New York side (though there are similar discrepancies in NY State, e.g. NY City Transit subsidizes the commuter RR's big time).
I really believe we have to look at the region as a whole. That may mean New York improves commuter access to New Jersey, or recognizes that most port facilities are going to be on the NJ side. But it has to go both ways to work.
IIRC, eleven percent of the people in New Jersey work in New York City, and they tend to have highly paid jobs. Those people in turn contribute to the local economy, and other NJ businesses serve people in the City. So New Jersey's economy is as dependent on a strong business community in New York City New York's is, and squeezing the City until it become unattractive to businesses and middle class residents does no one any good.
Very true. The reason it is impressive, however, is that PATH is four lines with 13 stations!
(re alleged Port Authority favoritism toward New Jersey)
There are some legitimate gripes. Port Newark gets a lot of attention at the cost of the Port of New York. Others have been voiced. But as I've shown you, it's not as one-sided as you think it is.
The seaport issue doesn't prove anything either way. Most of the port facilities are in New Jersey because that area has the huge amounts of space needed for a container port's landside facilities. And New York has not been ignored; the Port Authority reopened Howland Hook on Staten Island and has kept the Brooklyn port facilities running (there's no room for expansion).
So can we conclude that the alleged favoritism to NJ is really about tunnel and bridge tolls, and Newark Airport? If that's the case, then I still stand by my other arguments.
However, another response to my post pointed out that Giuliani's rantings were a good way for a politician with no direct power to influence the PA's capital planning process. This was a very astute observation.
[That's all well and good if you have a bad situation. The Port Authority is not by definition a bad situation, any more than the Board of Ed or the city is. The PA doesn't do everything right, nor do they do everything wrong. Ditto for the city. It's not clear that Guiliani has made his case on the facts.]
The policing and snow removal issues are sideshows, but I get the impression he's made a good case regarding the neglect of JFK airport -- it's been a dump for years, while all the money went to Newark (and PATH).
"The policing and snow removal issues are sideshows, but I get the impression he's made a good case regarding the neglect of JFK airport -- it's been a dump for years, while all the money went to Newark (and PATH)."
Money to PATH helps both NY and NJ. And Newark is a good alternative for Manhattanites, esp. since city residents want flights at LGA to be restricted. Having said that, I do applaud the PA's recent decision to invest heavily at JFK.
If that really was partly the result of Giuliani's antics, then I will take back some of my criticism of his tactics.
After $10b+ at JFK these next few years, NJ may start complaining about the relative lack of investment in EWR. A very impressive program of improvements. Much of it by the airlines, of course, but under PA leadership. Just as no one let the PA off the hook over the decades when the airlines were refusing to invest in JFK.
I take Giuliani at his word: he wants the airports back, period. His point is that he reduced crime, he can run the airports. Amazingly, the answer may be that massive capital projects aren't as easy as crime reduction. They take a lot longer to push through to completion. Who knew? The PA could respond by saying "look at the state of repair of the mayor's school buildings", for example. "Before taking over a new capital-intensive portfolio, take care of your existing responsibilities."
I like your ability to see both sides of this.
Again, its all about money. I worked for the Port Authority, and I know people who work there. I've been told that NY did get the shaft in the 1990s, and that Giuliani's pressure has been good in making the agency become more evenhanded.
The PA people say that it was NYC and NY State's fault for letting it happen -- bureaucrats can't stand up to NJ pols when NY pols don't care. And they claim it will be fair from now on, or can be, so there is no need to take back the airports.
As for the first point, I heard an amazing quote from Mario Cuomo. He was criticizing Giuliani for being unreasonable. As an example of his reasonableness, he said that in the fiancial cruch of the early 1990s never asked fellow Democrat Jim Florio to raise PA to raise fares and tolls, because it would be politically damaging to Florio. So the Port Authority cancelled 2/3 of its airport access program in NYC (after getting a PFC to pay for it), and used NYC aiport profits to support bargain fares on the PATH, all while raising NYC fares and tolls to cover the losses in NY. There it is from the horse's mouth (or ass, depending how you look at it). Thanks Mario.
Kind of like David Dinkins not saying a thing when Mario Cuomo covered his budget shortfall by not paying one quarter of NYC's school aid, causing drastic budget cuts in the City, while protecting spending elsewhere. Remember, NYC school aid would be much higher were it now for a law that said that no district's school aid can be cut, which benefit shrinking upstate and suburban districts. But NYC school aid wasn't cut, it just wasn't paid. Thanks David.
Dinkins, Cuomo, and Florio all lost. So did all NYC residents.
Good points. Though I haven't worked there, I've heard similar things from PA folks as well. But if the Mayor's is after concessions, he's got:
* $10b+ of investment in JFK, more than EWR has ever had;
* Airtrain connection to JFK, imperfect, but better than EWR's link via a wobbly monorail;
* Big PATH fare hikes;
* Big NJ bridge/tunnel toll hikes;
* Agreement to sell WTC, higher property taxes to NYC possible;
* Agreement to sell air rights above bus terminal, assisting Times Square redevelopment...
Yet he keeps pounding away. He's got everything (but a firm number on a new PILOT payment to the City on WTC, and they are holding that hostage to JFK/LGA lease extensions now). Mayor doesn't even have a seat at the table. This is the Governor's deal. I give Pataki all the credit for equalizing the NY-NJ balance. He controls half the board and appoints the Executive Director.
I'll give you an alternative theory. Mayor has no power over PA, but he also has very little say with MTA. He could easily be attacking the subway, LIRR, MNR, buses, etc. This forum identifies quite a few MTA shortcomings here.
But attacking MTA is seen as direct assault on the Governor, who is associated with it in the public mind. Attacking the PA is seen as an attack on a faceless bureaucracy. But in fact is a direct attack on the Governor. I chalk it up as turf war. The "Giuliani Family" vs. the "Pataki Family", as the Mayor himself put it in his press dinner skit the other night.
That's an interesting analysis. It does make you wonder if the Mayor knows when "enough is enough."
[That's an interesting analysis. It does make you wonder if the Mayor knows when "enough is enough."]
He seems to squeeze until nothing else comes out. Then he backs off. Examples: his Yankee Stadium plan, privatizing the municipal hospitals (damn shame he couldn't get that one through). I know of one case where be pushed to far--the Feds were about to give the City Governor's Island for $1, but he was so hot on gambling and private activity that it lost support in Congress.
I know of one case where he (the Mayor) pushed too far--the Feds were about to give the City Governor's Island for $1, but he was so hot on gambling and private activity that it lost support in Congress.
Not necessarily a bad outcome. Governor's Island had white elephant written all over it. Any sort of commercial or residential development would have required frequent, 24/7 ferry service, which isn't cheap. The Coast Guard found it too expensive to keep its facilities on the island for just that reason, and their costs of providing that service probably were a lot cheaper than the city's would be.
[Money to PATH helps both NY and NJ. And Newark is a good alternative for Manhattanites, esp. since city residents want flights at LGA to be restricted.]
I'm all in favor of thinking regionally, and that certainly includes the improvements at Newark, but when one area is neglected for political reason to benefit another it's economically harmful, since on general principles the further you move away from a market economy the more wasteful an operation becomes.
In practical terms, New York City is responsible for a huge percentage of the NJ economy--IIRC 11% of New Jersey residents work in NY, and those tend to be high paying jobs which in turn create jobs in NJ. And businesses list airport access as one of the main reasons they leave NYC. What we really need is three modern, well run major airports, with quick "extension of the airport" service to attractive terminals in the City. That would benefit everybody.
Similarly, PATH created a boom in Hoboken and Jersey City -- the recent NJ census results show that they experienced significant population growth while the rest of Hudson County did poorly. That's to the benefit of the entire region, which gets to keep some back office operations and attract some middle class workers who couldn't afford the City. But subsidizing those areas at the expense of New York probably doesn't make economic sense, because it's hard to maintain a vibrant business community in an area with poor services and ridiculous taxes.
I can understand how you feel. There is much merit in what you say.
I'm all in favor of thinking regionally, and that certainly includes the improvements at Newark, but when one area is neglected for political reason to benefit another it's economically harmful, since on general principles the further you move away from a market economy the more wasteful an operation becomes.
It does not follow that New York is being neglected simply because Newark Airport is undergoing improvements. Remember, there are $9 billion of improvements being made at Kennedy; while not all of them are Port Authority-funded, a significant percentage are (especially Airtrain). While not much if anything is being done at LaGuardia, the airport is too crowded as is - shifting some of its traffic to Kennedy is in everyone's best interest.
[It does not follow that New York is being neglected simply because Newark Airport is undergoing improvements. Remember, there are $9 billion of improvements being made at Kennedy; while not all of them are Port Authority-funded, a significant percentage are (especially Airtrain). While not much if anything is being done at LaGuardia, the airport is too crowded as is - shifting some of its traffic to Kennedy is in everyone's best interest.]
I don't think the problem was that Newark was undergoing improvements, but that for many years JFK wasn't! It turned into a real embarassment. Also, if they'd built a real "extension of the airport" Airtrain into Kennedy and Newark, it would have done a lot to minimize the load on Laguardia.
Now there's an idea. JFK to Newark. When AirTrain opens, it will require at least 4 vehicles to get there:
1. AirTrain from terminal to Howard Beach. "A" train to Penn Station. NJ Transit to Newark Airport Monorail. Monorail to terminal.
2. AirTrain from terminal to Jamaica Station. LIRR or "E" train to Penn Station, then as above.
3. Or: AirTrain/subway to Port Authority Bus Terminal; bus to Newark Airport (is there such a direct bus service? There must be...)
The only other alternative now is a limo service that operates between the three airports ($22? correct me if I'm wrong).
[The only other alternative now is a limo service that operates between the three airports ($22? correct me if I'm wrong).]
I'm not sure, actually. Last time I went, it cost $22 to take a limo to JFK, but I've never actually gone from one airport to the other.
There's probably some kernels of truth to the complaint - trouble is, it gets lost in Guiliani's posturing. Guiliani wants to win a p---g contest with the PA.
There's not a violent crime problem at any NY airport. The main problems include pickpockets and car breakins. The PA is correct that some statistics actually reflect overdue rental cars which have not been returned. This does not excuse them for inadequate patrolling, however. As to how inadequate it is, I think that's a point of contention.
When the first Skell came to America, they to sought their dream. They found it here, It was denied them by law in Skellicia, or was Skellandia. Whatever, send them back.
avid
By the way, what is a "skell?"
By the way, what is a "skell?"
A derelict or homeless person, especially one who's dirty and smelly.
Thanks for the definition. I had thought the term was slang for criminal. Now I understand. I am also, as a result, offended by some of these recent posts. Homeless people are not garbage to be carted away; many are mentally ill and are more likely to be victims than perpetrators.
I want them off the trains, too, but we need to do that through offering appropriate resources, treatment, shelter. I want anyone performing illegal activities, whether or not the person is homeless, removed from the subway.
>>> I want them off the trains, too, but we need to do that through offering appropriate resources, treatment, shelter. <<<
I was listening to NPR yesterday and heard a short piece about how inadequate the homeless shelters in NYC are. It mentioned that there are posters in the subways urging battered women to call a number to get to a shelter away from the person who is beating them. When they call the number they are directed to an office where they are supposed to be assigned to a shelter. According to this program, they end up staying at that office with other women and kids for up to 48 hours with everyone sleeping on the floor until the office is able to find a shelter for them or provide emergency vouchers for temporary hotel shelter. Apparently those seeking shelter (not only battered women) far exceeds the number of shelter beds available. No wonder in this cold weather the homeless are becoming railfans.
Tom
[I was listening to NPR yesterday and heard a short piece about how inadequate the homeless shelters in NYC are. It mentioned that there are posters in the subways urging battered women to call a number to get to a shelter away from the person who is beating them. When they call the number they are directed to an office where they are supposed to be assigned to a shelter. According to this program, they end up staying at that office with other women and kids for up to 48 hours with everyone sleeping on the floor until the office is able to find a shelter for them or provide emergency vouchers for temporary hotel shelter.]
Are we so wimpy and weak that we can't spend a couple of days sleeping on the floor in an emergency situation?
There's a limited supply of public housing. Unless we want to become even more Soviet in our model than we are, and provide public housing to everybody in the City, it has to be a bit inconvenient to get, or everyone in the City will show up to demand it.
[Thanks for the definition. I had thought the term was slang for criminal. Now I understand. I am also, as a result, offended by some of these recent posts. Homeless people are not garbage to be carted away; many are mentally ill and are more likely to be victims than perpetrators.]
"Skell" appears to be short for "skellum," which means "scoundrel" or "rascal," and the terminology is used by the police. It does not just refer to the homeless, although some homeless people are among that number.
And while I agree that we need to provide appropriate half-way facilities, follow up, and, where necessary, mandatory medication and/or hospitalization to mental patients -- in fact, I feel very strongly about that -- and while I believe that we hould provide treatment on demand and (I believe) mandatory treatment and followup to addicts, that does not, in my book, translate into allowing illegal activities, including begging and sleeping in public places.
"while I believe that we hould provide treatment on demand and (I believe) mandatory treatment and followup to addicts, that does not, in my book, translate into allowing illegal activities, including begging and sleeping in public places."
I don't like panhandling either. But the Supreme Court has been clear on the issue - either everybody gets to do it, or nobody gets to do it (and I fully agree). It's hard to kick a panhandler off the train when the Salvation Army gets to put people with collection jugs inside fare control. I asked one of the latter about that - they said they got permission from the TA.
I believe the TA should have a uniform policy: No fund-raising or soliciting of money of any kind on a train or inside a station. I don't care if it's the United Way or somebody collecting for breast cancer. There are plenty of other places to do it. When the TA enforces that, then panhandlers can be asked to leave the subway, or face arrest.
I don't like panhandling either. But the Supreme Court has been clear on the issue - either everybody gets to do it, or nobody gets to do it (and I fully agree). It's hard to kick a panhandler off the train when the Salvation Army gets to put people with collection jugs inside fare control. I asked one of the latter about that - they said they got permission from the TA.
I believe the TA should have a uniform policy: No fund-raising or soliciting of money of any kind on a train or inside a station. I
don't care if it's the United Way or somebody collecting for breast cancer. There are plenty of other places to do it. When the TA enforces that, then panhandlers can be asked to leave the subway, or face arrest.
Actually, I believe the TA does prohibit all solicitation on trains, regardless of charitable affiliation. Solicitation in fare-control areas is restricted but not completely prohibited.
So, legally, then a panhandler could pay his/her fare, and stand inside fare-control with a cup in hand.
(So, legally, then a panhandler could pay his/her fare, and stand inside fare-control with a cup in hand.)
No noise. No bad smell. No hosility. No harrassment. No taking up all the seats. No littering.
Then no problem.
But probably no money either.
[I believe the TA should have a uniform policy: No fund-raising or soliciting of money of any kind on a train or inside a station. I don't care if it's the United Way or somebody collecting for breast cancer. There are plenty of other places to do it. When the TA enforces that, then panhandlers can be asked to leave the subway, or face arrest.]
I tend to think panhandling for personal profit and solicitation for charity are entirely different things. But AFAIK both are banned on trains and permitted (or overlooked) outside fare control areas . . .
From a moral and social perspective, the majority of panhandlers are either out to buy drugs or they're dumped mental patients. Both groups are harmed by it, the former because it subsidizes their self-destruciton and the latter because it takes them away from the social services and health organizations that could help them.
"From a moral and social perspective, the majority of panhandlers are either out to buy drugs or they're dumped mental patients. Both groups are harmed by it, the former because it subsidizes their self-destruciton and the latter because it takes them away from the social services and health organizations that could help them."
I completely agree.
"I tend to think panhandling for personal profit and solicitation for charity are entirely different things"
In my gut, I feel differences, too. But I have to agree with the Supreme Court, which protects the right to have a differing opinion, that is, one person has as much right to ask for money as another. As more than one noted scholar pointed out, it's the most obnoxious among us who most needs the protection of the First Amendment.
[But I have to agree with the Supreme Court, which protects the right to have a differing opinion, that is, one person has as much right to ask for money as another.]
Didn't they support panhandlng on free speech grounds?
Yes, they did. But it can be restricted in certain venues (ie when an audience is coerced into receiving the message) -but then the limitations would have to be applied to everyone.
Skell is a combination of the words skill and smell.
They have very good skills when it comes to emitting smells.
I have been told that "skell" refers in a derogatory manner to a homeless person. Not a piece of garbage, not an inanimate object, but a person. Now that you know it too, perhaps you'd like to rethink your posting.
OTOH I think the PA and airlines are justified in their concern over skells. And as much as I may personally dislike the attitude of those middle class people who don't want to ride with brown faces, travellers with bags do have genuine security concerns.
I don't imagine that the skell problem would be an issue. Airport terminals are full of police and other security people, after all. And there's probably a clause somewhere in the Port Authority's regulations which limit terminal access to airline passengers and persons seeing off/picking up passengers.
[And there's probably a clause somewhere in the Port Authority's regulations which limit terminal access to airline passengers and persons seeing off/picking up passengers.]
I don't think they can get away with that, can they? The courts ruled that they have to tolerate a certain amount of religious solicitation . . .
What does tunnel capacity in Manhattan have to do with using the Rockaway branch? There's plenty of tunnel capacity for Airtrain--LIRR capacity is limited by the operation of Penn Station, not by tunnel capacity."
Absolutely false. Three railroads share two tunnels to get to Penn Station, both for passenger traffic (except NJT
) and maintenance yard access. LIRR is in fact, very limited by tunnel access; this will be partly relieved by the East Side Access project in about ten years.
" And there are some very attractive alternative means of getting Airtrain into the city, e.g., via the Atlantic Avenue branch and the existing subway infrastructure"
Only on paper. A lot of things would have to happen first, some engineering and some political and some financial, involving two states and three railroads and lots of people who will not quickly agree to arrange everything to accomplish the prerequisites. And of course you would run into that tunnel problem again. You are looking only at what is physically possible, and ignoring everything else.
The PA will open their service in 2003 along a very appropriate ROW. Maybe in the future we'lll see some progress on other routes, and it's fine to advocate for them. But if you do, at least acknowledge the real world we live in.
As to the state's proposals, they're just that - proposals. It's premature to read anything into them.
[Absolutely false. Three railroads share two tunnels to get to Penn Station, both for passenger traffic (except NJT
) and maintenance yard access. LIRR is in fact, very limited by tunnel access; this will be partly relieved by the East Side Access project in about ten years.]
I reiterate: that is not the case. While the LIRR moves a good number of trains, New Jersey Transit does not because of platform loading limitations and Amtrak, which cares little about efficient use of Penn Station. The tunnels are not being used at capacity, and even if they were, capacity could easily be increased by improving the signal system -- we're talking perhaps 6 tph here.
[Only on paper. A lot of things would have to happen first, some engineering and some political and some financial, involving two states and three railroads and lots of people who will not quickly agree to arrange everything to accomplish the prerequisites. And of course you would run into that tunnel problem again. You are looking only at what is physically possible, and ignoring everything else.]
Yes. I'm not a politician or a bureacrat. But the tunnel problem, even if it were real, wouldn't have any effect on Atlantic Avenue service.
[The PA will open their service in 2003 along a very appropriate ROW.]
?!?
[Maybe in the future we'lll see some progress on other routes, and it's fine to advocate for them. But if you do, at least acknowledge the real world we live in.]
And accept the fact that a bumbling and self-interested collection of interest groups, politicians, governments and agencies is among other thigns spending $1.5 billion to build a train to nowhere when for an affordable investment we could have a valuable service using existing infrastructure? It seems to me that if we want the world to improve, we have to begin with the right proposals.
[As to the state's proposals, they're just that - proposals. It's premature to read anything into them.]
It will happen--of that I'm convinced. I remember the Train to the Plane and the Jamaica service will just be too much of an embarassment.
Can the Airtrain really be considered transit service? I don't think there is any appeal to those who might be able to otherwise [if it were done the right way like Chicago did] leave their cars home if they work at the airport? Or for people of moderate means who do have to fly that could use a direct train and a single fare ride.
[They'd also have to have subway style doors to speed station loading, but this I think is way overdue on our commuter lines, which are still run on an open-access/conductor ticketing model that's appropriate for long distance traffic. ]
But that would drastically reduce available seating, I could see it working on shorter lines like Port Washington branch though.
Arti
[But that would drastically reduce available seating, I could see it working on shorter lines like Port Washington branch though.]
How drastically? I mean, you already have big doors in the vestibules, so you'd be adding maybe two doors per car (a bit more since the cars would be shorter). That would be more than made up by the huge increase in capacity, which is currently limited by operations and facilities at Penn Station. A two track line with subway-style loading could accomodate something like 35 new trains per hour, and since relatively few subway stations would need renovation you could make them as long as you wanted . . .
Subway car 60' long with 40' of the space taken by the doors, LIRR car, 85' long 20' taken from the seating space?
Arti
[Subway car 60' long with 40' of the space taken by the doors, LIRR car, 85' long 20' taken from the seating space?]
Well, that figure presupposes doors on both sides of the new cars. I think you'd want to arrange things so that there were doors on only one side. So you'd lose a bit less than 10' of seating per 60' car, assuming four doors in a car, or roughly 1/12 of the seating capacity (because it effects only one side)--hard to say exactly without looking at vestibule sizes and such.
The cars would also be 6" narrower so you'd have to cut aisle width or a row of seats.
Doesn't seem impractical to me, given that this would all be additional capacity--Penn and GCT would go on as before.
"I believe the B division 2nd Avenue could use the Pelham Bay line tunnel and tracks, by shaving down the platforms"
That in fact was exactly what NYCT operations and planning people told me two or three years ago - that was, in fact a plan they were mulling over.
"Taxes on the new office space on the West Side, and luxury residential towers in East Harlem and the Lower East Side, along with the rise in property values in Lower Manhattan (due to increased accessibility) pays for it all. "
Maybe not exactly in that way, but it's obvious you get the picture.
The Pehlam-Second Ave. connection was part of the plan 30 years ago when the last major Second Ave. subway initative was begun.
While good in theory, without a section of the Second Ave. line south of 63rd St., it would make trips downtown for East Bronx riders actaully more difficult (if less crowded), since they would end up over on the West Side and taking a roundabout route to lower Manhattan or the Midtown east side, unless a transfer tunnel between the Lexington Ave./63rd St. station and the IRT 59th Street station was built. And eve if it was, that would put the Pehlam riders right back where they are now, on the IRT Lex for the rest of the trip downtown, except most of them would be standing instead of sitting. That's progress?
A better choice would be a Bronx extension that ran to 149th St. and Third Ave. and then recaptured part of the Metro North right-of-way for an express run to the northern Bronx, with stops at 161st, Tremont and Fordham Road. If the MTA wants to recapture an IRT line for the BMT/IND, then ramp the line up out of the Metro North cut and to the old Third Ave. el lower level of the Gun Hill Road station on the 2 (it's not there but the space still is and the platforms could be rebuilt), terminate the 2 on the upper level and run the Second Ave. line to 241st St.
Doing that would still take passengers off the East Side IRT, but it would also give people in the North Central Bronx a faster trip to Manhattan, improve subway service to Fordham University and the Bronx Zoo, and require only a Harlem River tunnel and about a mile of underground track before emerging in the Metro North open cut. A barrier to seperate the subway from the commuter rail would have to be built (a la the Red Line and the B&O tracks north of Washington) and a ramp up and elevated section across Bronx Park south of Gun Hill Road would also have to go in, but all of that would still be cheaper than building an underground line and would add an additional route in the Bronx, instead of just shifting the Pelham line from the A Division to the B Division.
You have a very interesting idea there. I like it. However, because of the need to add tunnel capacity to the East side, your proposal won't address the issues that a full-length 2nd Av subway addresses. As to the 125-63rd St "stubway," so long as it is built within an engineering plan that has construction continuing to the financial district, there is no harm in opening service north of 63rd while we wait for the rest of it to get done.
I've written to MTA to get more info. Will post it here.
(The Pehlam-Second Ave. connection was part of the plan 30 years ago when the last major Second Ave. subway initative was begun.
While good in theory, without a section of the Second Ave. line south of 63rd St., it would make trips downtown for East Bronx riders actaully more difficult (if less crowded), since they would end
up over on the West Side and taking a roundabout route to lower Manhattan or the Midtown east side, unless a transfer tunnel between the Lexington Ave./63rd St. station and the IRT 59th Street station was built.)
I propose not only connecting to the Pelham Bay Line but also running the 2nd Avenue all the way Downtown, hooking it into the Nassau Subway and through to Brookyn. So, in fact does the MTA, since the engineering calls for the subway to be built to 57th Street -- tail end tracks for the trip south. However, even the Stubway will be built after the MTA is deep in debt.
As for excessing the Broadway line, there has to be something in it for the suburbs for the 2nd Avenue to get built. Imagine that the Broadway line was on 2nd Avenue -- would anyone propose that the NYCT needs another line between 6th Avenue and 8th Avenue, joining the three others? Adding capacity sounds good, but then you spread the passengers over more stations, tracks and signals that have to be maintained, a financial loser. I'd rather MOVE the capacity over to places where there are no subways.
Got to have a big plan that solves everyone's problems.
Since the subways were originally built by different companies, the emphasis was on competition, rather than making sure all New York neighborhoods got wisely distributed subway service. NYCTA inherited this. But commercial and residential development followed the lines, so none of the lines are wasted.
As to the debt, well, we pay to maintain system built for us to use by our predecessors, and our descendents will shoulder part of the cost for new systems they will use. Critics will call it evil, and advocates will call it foresight. Pliticians will use it any way they want to get re-elected.
Going on history, it's the Sixth Ave. line that never should have been built since the Broadway line was already 20 years old when it arrived. The IND should have built an Eighth Ave. line and a Second Ave. line back in the 1930s, but didn't because the East Side of Manhattan was a far less desirable place to live before WWII than it was after the major changes that occurred between 14th and 96th streets in the post-war years.
I'm not against building the Stubway first -- anything that gets done is likely to spur support for new construction to complete the Second Ave. project. I just don't think the Stubway loop-Pelham plan will take as many riders off the IRT Lex as the proponents think, because it's a roundabout route to the midtown east side and lower Manhattan.
If the MTA wants to run the thing along 125th Street, they'd be better off running the Stubway all the way over to St. Nicholas Ave. and connecting it up with the A/B/C/D lines, so it could terminate either at 145th, 168th or Bedford Park Blvd. That would at least give riders in Upper Manhattan direct acccess to the East Side north of 53rd Street, and vice-versa, something that's all but impossible to do by subway now.
[That would at least give riders in Upper Manhattan direct acccess to the East Side north of 53rd Street, and vice-versa, something that's all but impossible to do by subway now. ]
How much need for that would you envion?
Arti
[As part of that plan, trains from the 60th Street tunnel would continue west to a transfer station at Columbus Circle, then onto a connection to the 14th Street line via a north-south 10th Avenue line.]
Larry, that's the first I've heard that idea, and I think it's a great one. Assuming you could reactivate the freight line . . .
A subway on 10th Av is a great idea. You would include in the design a transfer capability to Rudy's 7 extension to the Convention Center, wouldn't you?
Sure, why not? The cut runs right in front of Javits and has capacity for six tracks. Talk about unused infrastructure!
(Speaking of which, while I'm all in favor of extending the #7, it seems to me that they could run a shuttle from Penn track 21 through the yard to Javits for perhaps a million dollars . . .)
Nice idea too. Count me as a supporter.
The 7 extension alignment I saw in Daily News seemed to use the WSFL to Javits.
Using the elevated portion up to 14th Street would be controversial as there are so many interest/disinterest groups involved. Trails, demolition and so on, politically a very hot potatoe.
Arti
[Using the elevated portion up to 14th Street would be controversial as there are so many interest/disinterest groups involved. Trails, demolition and so on, politically a very hot potatoe.]
Unfortunately true.
One possible alternative if the NIMBY's prevail -- a new technology electric busway through the West Side ROW, onto the el (no noise), then the rest of the way to Wall Street via a dedicated busway on West Street. It would be a very versatile service and would cost very little to implement.
[One possible alternative if the NIMBY's prevail -- a new technology electric busway through the West Side ROW, onto the el (no noise), ]
There's quite a lot of pressure from real estate people to demolish it alltogether, as they see it as an eyesore.
Arti
[There's quite a lot of pressure from real estate people to demolish it alltogether, as they see it as an eyesore.]
I think it's wonderfully funky. How many els actually run through buildings?
I'd tell the real estate people that sure, they could demolish it, as long as they built a replacement line under West Street. They could build it for perhaps 1/3 of what it would cost the government, it's only one mile, and the improvement in the value of their buildings would probably pay for the cost of building it. Win-win all around (unless like me you think it's one of the coolest structures you've ever seen).
It is cool, isn't it? How much sound-proofing (baffles, improved track or ballast) would it need to make its operation more acceptable?
Short of using tires, I'm not sure if you could. It's a very curvy line and AFAIK it's in contact with the building structures, meaning that any low frequency vibration will be transmitted (one exception--they had to go to great lengths to isolate the Bell Labs building when they built the line to avoid problems so the vibrations wouldn't interfere with the experiments!).
It would be easier to build an elevated line down 12th Ave./West Street south of 30th Street if the 7 was extended from the Javits Center, say, down to WTC. The freight line would have NIMBY protests on both sides, while going down West Street you'd only have NIBMYs to the east, since the fish living in the Hudson are notorius non-voters.
[NIBMYs to the east, since the fish living in the Hudson are notorius non-voters. ]
Don't count fish out, I'll bet there would be some group that will object in behalf of them :-)
Arti
NIMBY is like an infectious disease - but sometimes, if you're lucky, you can apply an antibiotic to kill it :-)
[It would be easier to build an elevated line down 12th Ave./West Street south of 30th Street if the 7 was extended from the Javits Center, say, down to WTC. The freight line would have NIMBY protests on both sides, while going down West Street you'd only have NIBMYs to the east, since the fish living in the Hudson are notorius non-voters]
It will never happen--it would totally ruin property values and Gribble State Park.
OTOH, they could build a light rail line *along* West Street . . .
use of modern signaling would offer higher TPH.
Using Automatic Block signals, the Moscow subway has 42 tph. The whole CBTC idea is just a way to spend money on something which is not really needed, and is a new and unproven technology.
[Using Automatic Block signals, the Moscow subway has 42 tph.]
Let's not forget that in Moscow the lines merger rdiverge like in NYC (but 7.)
[The whole CBTC idea is just a way to spend money on something which is not really needed, and is a new and unproven technology. ]
CBTC is new technology for MTA otherwise it's been used by other systems for a while. If they were to build 2nd Ave subway, why use 19th century technology?
Arti
It almost appears that the MTA will believe that suburban people will actually get off of the MNRR there rather at Grand Central and transfer to the 2nd Avenue-Broadway Line. I don't think so!
"It almost appears that the MTA will believe that suburban people will actually get off of the MNRR there rather at Grand Central and transfer to the 2nd Avenue-Broadway Line. I don't think so!"
No, that's not the rationale. Most of the political pressure to build this subway has come from Manhattanites and residents of the Bronx, with Brooklyn advocates demanding that the line's design extend it there too. A laudable goal, perhaps, but not in the cards now.
I was just wondering: If the plan is to have the line turn at 125th Street and head to Lexington Avenue.......was this done so that at a future date, the Second Avenue Line could be tied in with one of the existing Lexington Avenue routes? (Most specifically, the local tracks of The #6 Pelham Line). A number of threads have discussed that the Dual-Contracts tunnels of the Lex are built to Division B widths. Although the "Master Plan" of the Late 1960's had the Second Avenue Line tunnelling under the Harlem River and eventually hooking up with the Pelham and Dyre Lines, wouldn't a cheaper alternative be to use existing structures if possible? The express tracks of the Lex would have to stay "A" Division, since the #5 Train must pass through the Contract 1 section. But the 6 Could be cut back to 125th Street, and the Second Avenue Line could take over the Pelham, provided the tunnel clearances are sufficient in the Bronx portion.
That's an interesting idea (I don't know enough to assess its technical merits).
Cut and cover will not be done in Manhattan. Reasons 1-100
1 - NIMBY !
2 - NIMBY !!
3 - NIMBY !!!
4 - 99 NIMBY !!!!
oh yeah 100 - Enviornmentalists
Other reasons - when the original lines were built the building heights were much smaller. Now with tall skyscrapers, the cost of shoring up the buildings might make it unfeasable.
There aren't a lot of skyscrapers along 2nd Avenue.
Your right that there are not many, but there are still some. I know for a fact there is at least 1 apartment building between 91st and 92nd streets that is 40 or so stories tall.
Also cut and cover would mean having to avoid and or reroute a huge number of cables, pipes, sewers, etc which were not there before.
Not much danger of NIMBY on this project. Support is overwhelming, ll the politicians and developers are on board. If a few people are left to yell and scream, they'll either be bought off, shouted down (or left on the tracks to be run over by Thomas The Subway Engine).
The shoring point is well taken.
I understand LIRR's East Side Access is now planned to plunge deep below the lower level of GCT. Apparently the platforms will be 125' below street level. But an enormous concourse space above where Madison Yard used to be! Old Penn Station-like.
Reason? It was cheaper to tunnel deep than to tunnel shallow and shore all the (often landmarked) Park Ave. towers. Then again, the shallow tunnel option leaves Park Ave. right of way, and goes directly underneath several towers on its way to the Madison Yard, including right below Lever House.
The (or rather "an") answer may well be in the MESA EIS on the MTA website. When I have a spare week, I'll look. I'll hold my bet on cut and cover being much cheaper, including utilites and possible occassional shoring, in the meantime.
[I'll hold my bet on cut and cover being much cheaper, including utilites and possible occassional shoring, in the meantime. ]
You forget the cost to local community when the street is dug up, not directly billable to MTA.
Arti
True enough. It's a fine balance. Personally, I prefer cut and cover only in places where it's absolutely necessary (soil conditions, or because you're building a station, so obviously you have to cut open the street).
If anybody remembers the last mess that cut and cover made when the 2nd Avenue Subway was under construction in the 1970's, I am sure that that is a factor as well. Not only was running on all the lumber noisy, it was very messy in the winter time.
All of the proprieters along the route were in an uproar and I think that almost had as much to do with the stoppage of the project as the money did: certain key politicians of the time were convinced that they could save there jobs by not finishing the line and paving 2nd Avenue again.
I am not really a fan of tunnelling, because I think that it inflates the cost to outragous levels and will create an undercapacity two-track line, like was said else where. But I think that it will be tunnelling now or NOTHING at all! Ever.
"All of the proprieters along the route were in an uproar and I think that almost had as much to do with the stoppage of the project as the money did: certain key politicians of the time were convinced that they could save there jobs by not finishing the line and paving 2nd Avenue again."
I tend to put it more on the money. The proprietors suffered, certainly, but would have put up with it if they knew this line would be finished. But nobody likes to suffer in vain. If I was watching the city go bankrupt and the subway clearly not going anywhere, I'd yell too. Please note that there was no formal Capital Planning process or dedicated capital funds in those days.
>>dedicated capital funds in those days. <<
Au contraire, there was a bond issue specifically passed to fund 2nd Ave & other transit projects. It is unclear to me how a government entity can simply elect to use such funds for other purposes. alas however this is the "second" time that was done with monies for this subway,so who knows?
"Au contraire, there was a bond issue specifically passed to fund 2nd Ave & other transit projects. It is unclear to me how a government entity can simply elect to use such funds for other purposes. alas however this is the "second" time that was done with monies for this subway,so who knows?"
A haphazardly slapped together bond act (or even several) do not constitute a capital planning process. The funds were frequently diverted, and controls were poor.
In 1982, the MTA started on a series of five year plans to rebuild the subways. These included a formal capital planning process, dedicated "nuisance" taxes like the tax on your phone bill, and the closer involvement of Albany. Despite Gov. Pataki's cutbacks, most of the essential elements are still there in this. The success in rebuilding the system is a testament to the new formal planning system.
"Ron, as you rapped me for believing in an advocacy group, my impression lately has been formed that, perhaps your confidence in MTA is too high."
My posts may lead to that impression, it's true. But I've also said in the past that MTA has to be dragged kicking and screaming to do things. Obviously, this is one of them. I hope this thing gets done, Arti, but I will jump up and down until we get it.
If MTA doesn't build it exactly as I want it, I won't ask them to come back, close it and rip up the tracks. Would you?
(Regarding my comment on use of existing tunnel)" Practically a very stupid idea, as a train would waste power to accelerate OUT OF THE STATION and then decend to the station."
I'll take your word for it. But Arti, remember about focus. At the level you are examining this, (one engineering decision amid thousands of similar decisions) it may indeed be stupid - but at the macro-level, somebody at MTA may be saying,"yeah it's stupid, but we just chopped $250 million (or whatever the number is) and two years out of the costs and schedule, soi that's more important." Or, a politician (like the Governor) has told MTA "OK, they wanted this subway, fine. But you find ways of chopping the purchase price," and the MTA decided on this. It won't be the only decision people will have an issue with, guaranteed- there will be others you won't like. But I'm just as concerned about the price tag as anybody, and I won't advocate for something which may be nice to have, but will increase the probability of scuttling the project.
It's a question of what is an A priority now vs. a B priority. Yes, it would be nice if you showed up to work in a clean necktie. But if you are already 20 minutes late to a critical meeting, do you worry about changing your necktie, or do just want to get there?
"Actually that's my gripe with you! MTA is no God, they need scrutinization!!"
You're 100% right about that.
This is the finest string of discussion yours truly has ever read on Subtalk. Would that all of our discussions could be of such quality and interest. There is a lot of considered knowledge among Subtalk posters. This time there was also the kind of courtesy that the Board should always have. Thanks to one and all.
As a Bronxite, my feelings about the good positions proposed are mixed. Almost all of them have great merit. Given the great changes in subway construction methods and operating philosophies, while it is evident that a four track line, at least up to 125th Street, would be better than a two track line, one has to remain open to the Washington Metro concept as well. Nothing whatsoever has been done to relieve the removal of the Second Avenue El in 1940 and the Third Avenue El in 1955. Nothing whatsoever! It would appear to me that the first demand is to relieve the east side corridor itself, from 125th Street to downtown. That will also provide a substantial improvement in taxable land value along that whole length, even though it has been doing well on its own for the last thirty years with increased building. It would seem to me that we could get a Washington type two track subway up and running in a reasonable time. In DC they did their best to dig under absolutely everything. However, they also know how to maintain escalators, a skill that is not even at the primitive level in the Big Apple's underground! I do not know how the newer moles, which were not available until recent years, would do with Manhattan Schist. Perhaps 63rd Street will give us the needed data. As far as cut-and-cover goes, we have the example of the "Big Dig" in Boston, but the properties affected by it are not anywhere near as intesively developed as they are along Second Avenue. The problem with construction is twofold: its natural inconvenience and the fact that it NEVER ends. Its completion is always underestimated by years and years. (The third city water tunnel's mine shafts were in my Bronx neighborhood. A six year project went on for twenty years.) That is why tunneling done as much out of sight as possible will be more tolerated than cut and cover.
Washington started with five or six Red Line stations. Now the original plan is completed. Does it have New York's capacity? Not at all! Does it work? Yes. Will a similar strategy help to relive the east side, which is the original objective? Yes. Is it the best solution? No. However, we have had no solution since 1940 and 1955.
Please keep this wonderful forum going.
"This is the finest string of discussion yours truly has ever read on Subtalk. Would that all of our discussions could be of such quality and interest. There is a lot of considered knowledge among Subtalk posters. This time there was also the kind of courtesy that the Board should always have. Thanks to one and all."
Thank you for the compliments. I personnally do not think I've been 100% polite on all my posts; my last few answering Steve Baumann have had a hard, critical edge to them and I have to be careful to make sure I'm criticizing actions or posts and the underlying logic, not the person's worth.
As to the 2nd Av line itself, I'll say again: Start digging. Build something. I think four tracks are neat but if two tracks will do it, so be it. I'd like them to hook the line up to the Bronx, but if we can't right now, so be it. But a full-length subway is important, and the section above 63rd St is a good first step.
As a Bronxite, how do you respond to the idea of encouraging use of Metro North within the City?
There's this idea of having a commuter rail trip within the City cost the same as a subway ride, as on the Paris RER for example. If one could simply use their Metrocard to obtain a MNRR ticket -- special new ticket machines? -- imagine how much pressure might be taken off of the Lex. (Or to get an LIRR ticket to get pressure off the Queens lines.) Both NYCT and MNRR (and LIRR) are owned by the same entity, MTA. So implementation should be relatively straightforward.
Some would worry about the lower fare losing money, but Metrocard shows that cheaper rides can mean more ridership and more net money. Anyway, MTA's job is to move people, and a good defense is NOT that "too many people will use it". Perhaps some trains will be crowded and Bronxites may have to stand. But at least for a much shorter ride than they now have.
Suburbanites may enjoy their bubble ride, and not want to mix with us great unwashed City folk. So work at the White Plains office of Morgan Stanley instead. Working in the City means the possibility of actually meeting City people. You eat and drink on your trains? So do we! You don't like feet on the seats? Only when we sleep!
Some will complain that City folk are getting a break by not paying a peak fare. But subway and bus transit trips in the City are already flat. That transfer you suburbanites make at GCT is $1.50 (or whatever) whenever you take it. Transit trips of all types inside the City should be flat. The City rush hour "fare" is having to stand: MNRR has 5 seats across, IRT has 2 with plenty of space to pack in standees. Consider this one of the final walls between unification of the Pennsy and NYC, and the IRT, BMT and IND. It's just one big system, with everything working as a single unit. Governor Pataki's empire makes the Commodore's look humble by comparison.
Longer term, the Penn Station Access idea could also add a new subway "route" to the Bronx: New Haven trains on Amtrak's Hells Gate Line could have a (probably heavily used) station at Co-op City, and at a few other locations. The Hudson line could also go down Amtrak's Empire Line and have a stop or two that would take some pressure off of the westside IRT. Too bad that it is almost certain East Side Access has to be in place first to have room at Penn Station.
In each instance, major capacity is added to City transit without any significant construction.
City folk already subsidize their suburban brethren. Any break Bronxites get on Metro-North they've earned many times over.
I'd say it's a good idea! Public pressure has gotten MNRR trains do stop in the Bronx, now it's time to get to the next level.
Arti
Was there a period of time when the MNRR locals DIDN'T stop at Fordham Road, Spuyten Duyvil and Riverdale? I know there was a stop somewhere around Morris Park that had been closed for a long while when huge tower apartments were being built but they had planned to reopen it. I remember when I lived near 225th St (Marble Hill) and would take the #1 train to work ... but if I got up late, I'd bite the bullet and instead of the 50 minute ride to work on the IRT, I'd opt for the 18 minute ride on the Central and just pay a bit more ...
That points out another problem (kind of like QB underpasses,) MTA does not inform people of the options, neither do they make it competitive. Let's not forget, none of the divisions run for profit, but for public good (well IMHO questionable, as those people who are in process of getting to work virtually produce nothing, i.e. not paying taxes.)
Arti
I'd say it's a good idea! Public pressure has gotten MNRR trains do stop in the Bronx, now it's time to get to the next level."
Bravo! A great idea.
So, Arti, you're actually willing to admit that we can make a difference if we advocate effectively...There's hope for you yet...
[So, Arti, you're actually willing to admit that we can make a difference if we advocate effectively...There's hope for you yet... ]
I never disagreed with you in that. We just have different opinions what should be advocated for. I believe that there are ways to improve service using excisting infrastructure (MNRR example) in a near future and for less money.
Arti
"I never disagreed with you in that. We just have different opinions what should be advocated for. I believe that there are ways to improve service using excisting infrastructure (MNRR example) in a near future and for less money."
I've read the posts about use of Metro-North ROW. Interesting ideas, and it would be great to see some of them happen. If you actually get an idea like that to the table, I'll be happy to sign your petition (I'm still going to push 2nd Av development, though).
I also like using LIRR ROW to provide access to subway trains. May I point out to you that the 63rd St line can still play host to an express operating on LIRR ROW. There's no law that says MTA can't build a branch out of 63rd St and onto LIRR property (like the LIC line). There has to be enough public momentum and politicians on board to do it.
[I also like using LIRR ROW to provide access to subway trains. May I point out to you that the 63rd St line can still play host to an express operating on LIRR ROW. ]
And the best time to do it would be while they connect LIRR to GCT.
Arti
"And the best time to do it would be while they connect LIRR to GCT."
Fabulous idea. If you want to send that idea to MTA (copies to your city councilpeople, state reps, state senator and Queens Borough President), I'll be happy to sign on to it.
The entire line won't be built now. But at least the bellmouth and a short stretch of tunnel rising to surface could be built (or some subset of that).
Maybe the Straphangers Campaign or RPA could support its addition to the 2005-8 Capital Plan. Now would be the time to think about it...
[The entire line won't be built now. But at least the bellmouth and a short stretch of tunnel rising to surface could be built (or some subset of that). ]
Whatever what can be built right now. Later unding and redigging, how much more would that cost? Whatever coincides with (hopefully the future plans) should be built in unison, later it obviously would cost more.
[Maybe the Straphangers Campaign or RPA could support its addition to the 2005-8 Capital Plan. ]
Doubt they care! I'll see what time I can spare, but right now my immediate concern is possible banning of smoking in bars.
Arti
[possible banning of smoking in bars]
Bars should ban drinking too. They're both bad for you.
[Bars should ban drinking too. They're both bad for you. ]
That's the irony!
Arti
[Maybe the Straphangers Campaign or RPA could support its addition to the 2005-8 Capital Plan. ]
"Doubt they care! I'll see what time I can spare, but right now my immediate concern is possible banning of smoking in bars."
It's distressing to see you dismiss people like that. Gene Russianoff, for one, spent a long time pointing out the problems with the transit system in the 1970's and '80's, and his group deserves some credit for helping gather support for the Capital Plans that fixed the trains and got rid of the graffitti. I think sometimes that the RPA works in a vacuum (they sometimes like to get theoretical without considering realities - like Steve does here), but their plans often make good logical sense, and they have developed a constituency. That means people listen to them and reporters quote them. So approaching them can't hurt you - and they have a lot to teach you (if you're willing to listen). By the way, they also have a fellowship program in transportation planning.
I guarantee you no one will listen to you if you don't call them. Otherwise, who knows??
I like RPA's ideas (Straphangers don't seem to have any) but they never talk about money, the vechicle behind it all.
About RPA:[That means people listen to them and reporters quote them. ]
They quote Straphangers, I can't honestly rememeber RPA was even mentioned, and they should.
Arti
"They quote Straphangers, I can't honestly rememeber RPA was even mentioned, and they should."
Steve Weber has been quoted. He also shows up to hearings.
"Straphangers don't seem to have any (ideas."
They have served for a long time as the MTA's critics, concerned about graffitti, concerned about cleanliness and on-time performance, measuring the state of the subways and reporting conditions publicly.
I don't agree with everything they do, but I respect what they've accomplished. Consider giving yourself a little attitude adjustment (eg take your foot out of your mouth) and then give them a call. Notice I didn't say treat them like God. Be skeptical if you want. But communicate with them. I guarantee you that if you do, you can still come back to this site and tell all of us that they are a bunch of whatever...but at least you've given yourself a chance to learn a bit more about them.
"Straphangers don't seem to have any ideas?"
Of course they do..just like taxpayers as a group have their ideas, or whatever other common-folk group you wish to bring up.
Like everything else they have their ideas and probably no wishes that are unfair, but like taxpayers and most other groups feel they don't get heard so WE ALL throw our hands up in despair, bury the axe but keep on griping.
I agree with you. That's why I was unhappy about Arti's comment.
Improve commuter RR service within the City is long overdue, I think. A $3 single fare--the same as an express bus--would make sense, given the greater amenities the commuter trains offer--and make the ride free with a flat rate Metrocard. But even if they don't do that, it's inexcusable to charge higher mileage fees for travel within the City than out of it, as the current fare structure does.
A lot could be done to improve coverage and service if the subway and the various commuter RR's were treated as a single transporation entity rather than fiefdoms.
It seems to me that they could complete East Side access more quickly and for a good deal less money if they just connected the 63rd St. LIRR tunnel to the existing Park Avenue tracks and dropped the annex. GCT and MN have plenty of capacity, and power compatibility could be handled easily enough. It's win-win all around, and that's just the beginning of what could be done with only relatively minor changes to existing infrastructure.
"It seems to me that they could complete East Side access more quickly and for a good deal less money if they just connected the 63rd St. LIRR tunnel to the existing Park Avenue tracks and dropped the annex. GCT and MN have plenty of capacity, and power compatibility could be handled easily enough. It's win-win all around, and that's just the beginning of what could be done with only relatively minor changes to existing infrastructure."
That is a valid idea and is listed as one of the alternatives on the draft EIS. Of course, LIRR and Metro-North service would have to be more tightly integrated so that one railroad's trains do not delay another railroad's trains when they merge onto common tracks. We'll see what MTA's board decides to do.
[That is a valid idea and is listed as one of the alternatives on the draft EIS. Of course, LIRR and Metro-North service would have to be more tightly integrated so that one railroad's trains do not delay another railroad's trains when they merge onto common tracks. We'll see what MTA's board decides to do.]
Interesting--I hadn't known that, thought the new tunnel/annex were done deals.
Right now a monthly pass on Metro-North's Hudson line stations in the Bronx costs $108. At 22 working days a month, that equals $5 a day, or $2.50 a trip. There's significant rush hour ridership at Riverdale and Spuyten, much less so at Marble Hill, University Hts. and Morris Hts., which are in denser neighborhoods. This is probably because of the price. Rush-hour trains run every 20-25 minutes. There is very little off-peak usage, because of the 1-hour headways and one-way fare of $3.50. If the fares could be brought closer to subway levels, and headways decrased to 10 minutes rush hour and 20 minutes other times, I believe usage would skyrocket. The same is probably true at other MNRR and LIRR lines within the city.
.
"Build it and they will come." There is no reason why Metro North could not increase off-peak service on both the in-city and the out-of-city parts of their system. Instead of off-hour express service every hour and local service every hour or half-hour (depending on line), how about half-hour express and quarter-hour local trains?
Why would you need off-hour express service? Subway customers are mostly deprived of that.
Arti
Yeah, but the distances are longer on commuter rail.
Off-hour, it was said!
Arti
Well lets look at Metro North New Haven line. The first two trains out on a weekend schedule from GCT to New Haven run Local to Stamford and Local to New Haven for a schedule time of 130 minutes, the express runs at 105 minutes (low of 102/average 103). The last train out with ALL STOPS is 143 minutes.
I don't see running trains at 1/2 hour intervals with the current equipment/crews on 105 minutes running time.
There probably won't be enough patronage to support such an increase outside the city given the low population density. But in-city is a different story.
Thanks to Arti for posting the URL for this report.
Must have missed it ...could you point me to it please?
--Mark
Here you go!
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/procure/archeng/pdf/cm1188s.pdf
Arti
Thank you!
--Mark
It was a very cold day today, with a raw wind. Not exactly ideal with for the LIRR, but since I was tired of waiting for a day I finally took the Babylon express.
The Babylon station is in a major renovation, the waiting room is nice and so were the restrooms.
Got the 12:05pm train, which I was just taking to Jamaica.
There was an M3 train sitting there at 11:45am when I went up to the platforms, but, they didn't open the doors until 11:55am.
It was bitter cold on that platform. The tall electric transmission
towers scale down near the end of the line, since this is the end of electrified territory.
We departed soon after the DE arrived from the east.
The ride picked up speed after Lindenhurst, and was fairly fast. I don't think we were at the MAS, more like between 55 and 60mph between
Lindenhurst and Rockville Centre, the engineer didn't "wrap it" all the time, since I could feel some brakes around Massapequa and Wantagh.
Of course after Massapequa the tall electric transmission towers carry many wires, with lots and lots of them west of Freeport (is this all used for the LIRR?)
After Lynbrook we slow noticably, then SWITCH tracks, to those that run on the Atlantic branch (Long Beach,Rockaway).
We don't start rolling at 55mph until Valley Stream, then at the switches near Rosedale you could see lots of work being done on the usual Babylon tracks. On the W/B track several track replacement vehicles, lots of workers, and other machinery. On the E/B track, a double decker laid up.
Is this a new thing or something? Usually Babylon trains run via Montauk viaduct to Jamaica.
So the metal towers parted with us, as we went down the Atlantic brach. It was pretty fast, once you get to the main line you're at Jamaica. Still I was looking forward to a ride on the Babylon line express tracks. We get to Jamaica and the doors wouldn't open, it took
about 3 minutes to get them open. Finally get off and try the E again. Just as I get in an R46 rolls in. I figured I'd just go with it, since R46's don't have as many homeless.
Pretty fast ride on the 46, flew past stations all the way down Queens Blvd.
In a suprise, after rejoining the line before 36th street I saw an R32 running on the G going W/B. Never saw that before. It was a pretty good ride, and there are notably less homeless on the R46's.
I got the 7 express at 42nd street. T/O was telling C/R that there was a track circut problem after Queensboro Plaza. Because of it, our express ran local to Woodside, then switched to the express the rest of the way. Also the Steinway tubes still smelled like heating oil, and there appeared to be some on the tracks around the 1st ave cross-overs.
Got to Flushing and wasted no time getting on the N21 and getting out of there, as the snow began falling.
A fun day all in all, Babylon to Jamaica in a little over 30 minutes
is a pretty good deal. I'd like to see an auto do that!!!
John -- sorry your ride on the Babylon express wasn't as much fun as my recent trip. It sounds like you ran into some mid-day track work causing you to detour onto the Atlantic branch. One note for you -- there aren't any switches near the Rosedale station. You probably just slowed down because of the work crew near the tracks.
Last Sunday night I was going from Penn to Rockville Centre and got to Penn at 8:20 PM. The next train to RVC was at 9:05, but I noticed that there was a Freeport/Babylon express leaving at 8:27. That train stops in Freeport at 9:04 and there is a train back to RVC at 9:12. Overall savings 26 minutes. Since I have a monthly, there's no problem going past my stop and coming back.
That train flew between Jamaica and Freeport, arriving in Freeport at 9:01.
CG
My debate with Stephen Bauman at one point led Steve to criticize the braking standards of new subway cars and comparing them to old, lighter ones.
That got me thinking.
The MTA has a signal block system designed for lower-weight cars. The TA responded to recent accidents by lowering train speeds but leaving block spacing alone (correct?).
Question for all of you: Are the brakes on the R-44,46, 68 etc. really inferior by comparison to older units, as Mr. Bauman suggests?
My impression is that the comparison would be similar to comparing stopping distances of a sedan and a truck. I don't expect my wife's Ford Focus to need as much room to stop as a Freightliner truck. This leads me to believe that the problem lies in the fixed-block signals, not the trains themselves. Hence, signal blocks should be larger (signals further apart). This would allow train speeds to be increased again while maintaining the integrity and reliability of the tripper system.
Your thoughts?
I'll offer two words and back off ... "Composite" and "shoes" ...
No, don't back off - elaborate and educate.
John pointed out that I said "composite" when I had meant "composition" ... those weird replacements that are quiet but take longer than the old fashioned iron shoes for brakes ... they take longer than the older shoes did to stop a train. Since they weren't using them at the time I was on the railroad, I can't speak from experience with them, but I'd be willing to bet some other folks here can tell you the difference in stopping time with the newer shoes.
As much as I'd love to gas off, I don't like to gas off on items that I don't have first hand experience with ... ya know, "hearsay" and that kinda stuff ...
Don't you mean Composition, Selkirk
Whoops! I plead brain damage on that one. Yep ...
Question for all of you: Are the brakes on the R-44,46, 68 etc. really inferior by comparison to older units, as Mr. Bauman suggests?
Read the TA's Powerpoint presentation regarding the 1995 Williamsburg Bridge collision. There is a link to the TA BBS on this site. Here are some direct quotes.
1932 - 1940 IND Design: "30 mph 230 feet"
"1948 - R10 through R32 30 mph 250 feet"
1993 "New EBD (Emergency Braking Distance) charts developed to reflect higher safety margins to allow for brake degradation"
"R44 Problem (Franklin Ave Shuttle Problem) Emergency stopping distance at 128% of specified stopping distance"
Hence, signal blocks should be larger (signals further apart). This would allow train speeds to be increased again while maintaining the integrity and reliability of the tripper system.
"Because they reqire extensive trackside equipment, fixed block signal systems are very expensive and disruptive to change."
My impression is that the comparison would be similar to comparing stopping distances of a sedan and a truck. I don't expect my wife's Ford Focus to need as much room to stop as a Freightliner truck.
The maximum braking rate is limited by road or track adhesion. This limits conventional emergency steel rail braking systems to around 4 mph/sec. The heavier an object the greater the adhesion. Thus a heavier train would have a greater maximum attainable braking rate. However, there is not sufficient difference in loaded car weights to change the 4 mph/sec limit significantly.
The heavier an object the greater its momentum and the greater the braking force required to stop it. The problem is that the brakes for a 60,000 pound truck are not 20 times larger than the brakes for a 3,000 pound Ford Focus. Hence the longer stopping distance for the truck, despite its greater maximum braking rate before skidding.
The use of track brakes can raise get around the adhesion problem and raise the emergency braking rate to 7 mph/sec. The Bluebirds used track brakes.
The current stated emergency brake rate for NYCT is standardized at 3.2 mph/sec. This is much less than any other system, which us usually between 3.5 and 4.0 mph/sec. Those systems using track brakes quote emergency braking rates around 6 mph/sec. The current stated service braking rate for the NYCT is standardized at 3.0 mph/sec. The service braking rate for most systems is in the 3.2 to 3.5 mph/sec range. One would hope that each of these systems is using the same standardized method for calulating this measure, so that such comparisons are meaningful.
One anomoly was noted by the NTSB during their investigation of the Williamsburg Bridge collision. NYCT trains sometimes stop in less distance using the service brakes than using the emergency brakes. This was true for a test at the accident scene. The reason for this is obvious. Service brakes use both dynamic and friction braking systems. Only the friction brakes are applied during emergency braking. While shorter braking distances due to the application of dynamic brakes should not be used for calculating emergency stopping distances, there is no reason why they should not be applied.
Ron, Stephen has had so much of a valid point that you not even considering it, (as an activist) saddenes me. He has a valid point, it used to work differently (more efficienly) before, and now how can we accept that?
Arti
I read Steve's explanation for how braking works and agree with it. This is, I believe, Steve's best supported and extremely well-written post, overall, and I applaud it whether or not I agree with its conclusions. Also, he provided a very elegant and easily understandable explanation. Further, I agree that in principle there is no reason why dynamic brakes and friction brakes could not bew applied at the same time. As to NYCT's braking standards, I don't know and would not presume to guess at the TA's rationale. It may be valid or invalid; it's not my place to judge it.
When we know the answer to that, we will also know just how much more efficiency we can wring out of the system. I am not anti-improvement; but improvements are not the total answer to our transit needs.
As to what saddens you, well, before you get too sad, consider this: Stephen has not yet made a completely coherent case for not building the new subways, partly because we still don't know how much more efficient we can make them, because the 63rd St and Archer Av lines offered access and connectivity to transit-dependent neighborhoods which did not have it before and demonstrably and significantly improved the quality of life there (no relationship to brakes); in the case of the 2nd Av line that is also a major consideration.
As an activist who tries not to be politically blind and deaf, I've come to understand that sometimes you have to work within the offered circumstances. The MTA is a morass in some respects, but not necessarily the worst in the US. The Washington Metro lost nearly 40% of available subway cars during a snowstorm due to mechanical failure. I don't remember New York having that problem in as large a scale. Maybe Metro cars brake better than NYC subway cars - but if they're all in the repair shop while ours are still running, who cares?
If Stephen wants to advocate for improvements in the system, fine. I'll be on record here as supporting him. But portraying MTA as a bunch of idiots is just plain offensive, and serves no purpose.
Great post, Steve (I'm not being sarcastic, I really mean it. Learned a lot from it). I'd love to see more of the same.
The information you are providing is not current. In the late 80s the TA switched over to composition brake shoes. At the same time, the old J relay valve - used with steel brake shoes was also changed. What was neglected was the variable load valve - specificly the emergency variable load valve. Following the Williamsburg Bridge incident, this was looked at and every car in the system had a re-calibrated Emergency Variable Load Valve installed. This brought the emergency stopping distance back in line with the stopping distance curve from the original design criteria.
This brought the emergency stopping distance back in line with
the stopping distance curve from the original design criteria.
I am very glad to hear this. Why have the motor controllers not been returned to their original design criteria? Why have running times not returned to their shorter, original times? Why has service not returned to its previous, higher levels, etc.?
But running times are getting shorter, at least in the IRT. 3 years ago, the run time from White Plains to Flatbush was 90 minutes off-peak during the afternoon. Now it's 86 minutes. This also includes installation of at least 3 new timers where they never existed before. All it seems to have accomplished though, is to increase the number of late arrivals.
Do we know what the % of late arrivals is, and why?
The answers can suggest to us ust how much room for improvement there really is. Stephenbelieves there's a lot more there than I do. I do note that he didn't mention your data.
But running times are getting shorter, at least in the IRT. 3 years ago, the run time from White Plains to Flatbush was 90 minutes off-peak during the afternoon. Now it's 86 minutes.
According to the old html schedules published on the MTA website the running time was 89 minutes. According to the current pdf schedules the running time is indeed 86 minutes.
The Brooklyn terminals for the #2 and #3 were reversed in 1972. However the combined running time from White Plains Rd to Franklin Ave for the #2 and from Franklin Ave to Flatbush for the #3 was 81 minutes. (71 min to Franklin + 10 min to Flatbush).
How soon do you think NYCT will be able to press forward into the past?
Would you happen to have those HTML schedules anymore? I've been trying to get my hands on them for a while.
The running time from White Plains to NEW LOTS which is farther than Flatbush was 85 minutes last time I worked that line in 1975. Of course with the equipment being as bad as it was I normally ran several minutes late every trip.
But running times shouldn't be so much longer now than 25 or so years ago, they should be at least equal, or better.
Dude, were the brake cylinders sleeved at this time?
Would it be a safe quess that this breaking issue is part of the reason the R/143 and maybe the R/160 cars are to be sixty ft. long. To give sixteen wheels and points of contact to the rails for essentially the same weight and length of a 600 ft consist.
Aside from being able to work the Eastern BMTs tight turns.
avid
What do you think Steve, Train Dude? Sounds logical to me.
From a rail adhesion standpoint, it makes sense. In operation, however, except in areas like Newkirk Ave. where the rails get coated with wet leaves, this rarely becomes an issue. A properly maintained 75' car should and does stop as well as a properly maintained 60' car. (Again, this ignores unusual slippery rail conditions). I think that the R-143 being reduced from 67' to 60' was simply to gain maximum utility for the car while preventing the bastardization of another fleet.
The 67' design patterned after the AB Standards (47' bolster
spacing) was supposed to clear everything on the Eastern Division
because, hey, the ABs did, right? Turns out they just _barely_
cleared, and one reason for that is the AB trucks have an off-center
truck bolster, because those trucks have one motor axle with (I think)
33" wheels and one trail axle with 31" wheels. This makes the
end and center excess just a little different from a symmetric
design (which the R110B had) and so, ooops, it doesn't clear.
Probably the realization of "hey, wait a second, we're going to
have 4 different car sizes now?" also set it.
In terms of adhesion, it doesn't matter at all. Since all of the
wheels produce braking torque, and since the weight is divided
approximately equally among the wheels, the braking performance
should be the same regardless of number of wheels.
My debate with Stephen Bauman at one point led Steve to criticize the braking standards of new subway cars and comparing them to old, lighter ones.
I don't have specifications in front of me, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and state the obvious: in addition to the inferiority of modern braking systems, the fact that the BMT cars mentioned were lighter and ran in shorter trains may skew the braking comparison.
I don't have specifications in front of me, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and state the obvious: in addition to the inferiority of modern braking systems, the fact that the BMT cars mentioned were lighter and ran in shorter trains may skew the braking comparison.
What's important is the ratio of "braking power" to weight, much the same way that acceleration depends on the power to weight ratio. If this ratio were constant, but the weight increased (such as adding more cars to a train) then one would not expect any significant changes.
Yes, but the numbers from the TA Williamsburg Bridge presentation only give actual train speed and distance; this returns us to the Ford Focus/Frieghtliner truck comparison.
I don't think, when talking about different MU subway cars, that
weight or number of cars makes much difference in braking performance.
This is because every wheel both bears the weight evenly and
contributes evenly to the braking. Therefore, the adhesion limit
(the % of the weight on a wheel that is available as braking effort,
i.e. the coefficient of static friction at the wheel/rail interface)
should not be a factor; it should be constant and on dry rail should
be about 20%, so the maximum available braking rate should be
g/5, which works out to about 4 mphps. Where adhesion limit is
an issue is when not every wheel produces power and/or the weight
is unequally distributed, for example in the case of a locomotive
accelerating a train of coaches. In this case it is advantageous
to ballast the locomotive so it is as heavy as possible, because
its weight is still dwarfed by the load it has to pull, so making
the engine heavier doesn't increase the load too much, but it greatly
increases available tractive effort.
The other case where weight can be an issue is when the braking load
is simply too high to mechanically produce with brake shoes.
This is the case on an engine: there is simply no practical way
to engineer the independent brake to stop such a heavy thing well.
That's why engines operating without cars are restricted in
speed: they depend on the additional braking effort of all those
wheels in the train. This, however, is not an issue when considering
subway cars weighing in the 70,000 - 100,000 pound range. I
suspect, although automotive engineering is your hobby, not mine,
that the reason a heavy truck doesn't stop too well is because of
this limit of being able to construct brakes that produce that
kind of torque on the wheels.
Very true, thanks for the clarification.
We have not considered the two dimensional weight distribution, which is not an important factor for MU train operation but is for some devices. If the center of gravity is above the axles, then the entire structure wants to rotate about the front wheels upon brake application. The weight retards this rotation, so the ratio of the cg's height to distance from the front axle is important. This is why in a panic stop, the front of an automobile dips. It also means that there is far greater adhesion and braking effort on the front than on the rear. It is the reason that front brakes are more powerful on cars and motorcycles. In some devices, such as bicycles, 90% of the braking effort comes from the front wheels.
What influence do different braking systems in the same vehicle contribute? For example, my old three-wheel Schwynn bike (I have trouble balancing on a regular bike) had a drum brake in back and a hand operated disc brake on the front wheel. Some cars are like that too (drum brakes rear, disc brakes front).
I understand that disc brakes are generally more powerful than drum brakes. Could this explain part of the reason for an automobile "dipping" when brakes are applied (I know that a car with four-wheel disc brakes will "dip" too. But will my example -drum and disc- dip more than that?)
I understand that disc brakes are generally more powerful than drum brakes. Could this explain part of the reason for an automobile "dipping" when brakes are applied (I know that a car with four-wheel disc brakes will "dip" too. But will my example -drum and disc- dip more than that?)
No, the dipping is due to the center of gravity being above the point of application of the braking force. This rotation also changes the weight distribution between the front and rear wheels, putting far more weight on the front. This means there will be greater adhesion on the front due to the increased weight. It makes sense to put more powerful brakes in the front to take advantage of the increased adhesion. Placing more powerful brakes on the rear would simply result in exceeding the adhesion limit (locking the wheels and skidding).
Excellent explanation, thank you sir. (Have you considered writing textbook chapters for high school or college physics? You're quite good at it).
I have to take exception to the thought Old, lighter cars. Not that you've said so, but you're probably the most technology-wise poster here..
I know there's not much difference in the weight of an R62 let's say against a Low-V or High V and the R44 for example weigh in about 43 tons, but let's say how does an AB or D type become lighter than any of the present 60 foot cars? An AB weighed about half again as much as an R32 for example.
I do feel the cast iron vs. composition shoes is a big difference. Cast iron grabbed right away, the composition [to my own feelings when I had my handles] took time to respond ...which even in emergency and the short distance involved could be fatal.
What are your thoughts on this?
Oh yes, weight wise on the IRT..I would add that the Gibbs weighed in at 45 tons when MUDC was added, compared to about 37 for an R62.The standard High V with MUDC almost 41...a standard Low-V about 39 tons.
Article in Wednesday's (I'm trying to catch up) Inkie business section describes Thomas Hickey, formerly of the TA, SEPTA, and Delaware Railroad Administration.
So how's it going with the snow and area railroads?? Looks like we're getting a bit more than expected, colder than forecast temps energized the storm, which is also moving slower than predicted. Probably around 6 inches expected.
About 4 inches currently on the ground, roads are covered. And if that sidewalk aint shoveled by tomorrow, you better watch out!
Yeah, looks like the snow will end around 1 or 2AM as flurries. I was hoping for some better wrap around, but oh well. Long Island looks on the radar like it's getting hit pretty hard. The low was in a strategic place to give them a lot of snow. This weekend should be interesting, we might see some T'Storms! I think we might have picked up about 5 inches, but we shall see when the final totals come out. Get ready for some wind though!
About 5 inches of the light fluffy kind of snow I like.
Wet snow is hard to shovel and is not as pretty.
Well, to bring this thread onto the topic, I say bring those R40 Slants out, seeing as how without them it makes it tough for just about any other subway car to get through the snow. LOL
Photos taken today before the snow came.
Looking south on the Northeast corridor by the Harlem river
Hell Gate bridge span
Hell Gate bridge span
The last stop on the Astoria line with R32s as seen from Hell Gate overpass
Where the NY connecting railroad breaks from the Amtrak Northeast corridor line.
My friend Jose and Arcady with the flag who posts here occasionally standing by the NY Connecting railroad
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
Great Pics! How'd you get up there though, especially without being seen
I walked across the bridge with my fellow railfans quite simply. We entered hrough an open service gate at Oak Point Yard where quite a few employees saw us (the engineer of a CSX B40 waved). After proceeding through the yard we walked up the 1% grade to the bridge and over to astoria. Two Northeast Direct and one Vermonter train passed us which I photographed on film. We walked all the way to Northern Blvd. where we exited the NY connecting RR.
-Dan
I'm amazed you weren't arrested.
It's a majestic bridge that is overlooked in NY because it doesn't carry cars (and is not lit at night). It's the same design as the Sydney Harbor Bridge which is considered a world landmark.
Some well-placed floodlights shining up on the stone piers and steel superstructure of that bridge would certainly create an incredible effect.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Unfortunately, Amtrak's in charge.
You got balls! I'd like to take that walk one day, like we used to so on the SIRToA ROW and the old Bay Ridge LIRR.
lets hope this person is not a subtalker click here
Only Dave knows for sure, but I don't believe that Darius posts here - at least he hasn't identified himself if he does.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Kinda sad to see this. Why didn't he just prior to all this, take the test like anyone else and get a real TA pass and real TA career?
He wouldve saved everyone, including himself a whole lotta grief and hastle!!! -Peace, Thomas:)
I agree. I didn't understand that either. He obviously knew enough to get a job with the TA.
He probably knew better :)
There is supposed to be a tour of Grand Central meeting at 9:30 on saturday. Anyone know where it is meeting?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Vanderbilt hall. I will be there with Heypaul.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm planning on coming up too, with Jr. and Mrs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Looking forward to meeting you.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>Vanderbilt hall. <<
OK, another dopey question, where's Vanderbilt Hall, street address?
www.forgotten-ny.com
It's the main waiting room in GCT... access is between the ticket booths, IIRC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you enter off 42nd St/Park ave you are right there.
Peace,
ANDEE
No actually it's where all of the shows and other things that they have in Grand Central are held.
As Subwaysurf said, it's right off the Park Avenue entrance.
If this tour is at 9:30 :-) I'm coming, but if it's at 9:30 :-( I won't.
:-( = AM
:-) = PM
9:30 AM :-( or 9:30 PM :-) ?
0930AM :-(
Peace,
ANDEE
If I don't sleep all night (which is what I usually do on weekends), then 9:30 :-( to me is like Midnight, so I'd be able to make it.
The lower level track area is usually closed on weekends (track gates are locked). Grand Central North is also supposedly closed on weekends, though every weekend I've gone there it was open (and thus provides access to the lower track level).
If anyone needs to use the rest room, I suggest using the ones on the trains (preferably Shoreliner IIIs), the one in the station is often crowded (because of the restaurants and tourists) and not 100% clean. Just find a Poughkeepsie bound train.
The bathroom in the Dining Concourse kicks ass! The urinal cakes are sponsored by an internet company.
I think it's symbolic of our current economic situation that people urinate on a .COM.
I liked it better when it had automatic sinks and toilets, when the newly rehabbed bathroom opened. I guess they didn't feel like maintaining such things, so they took out the sensors and put in the manual stuff.
On another note, did (does?) GCT ever have another customer bathroom? I find it hard to believe that the man from Chicago would be using the same facilities as the man from Fordham back then. Anyway, the current bathroom is on the concourse where short-distance local trains used to depart from when the NY Central was running things, there must have been one for the upper level express-intercity trains.
Just find a Poughkeepsie bound train.
And be sure to check the schedule first before you realize that you're in Yonkers when you're done!!
--Mark
lol
Grand Central North is not closed on weekends. However, the 2 entrances under the old Helmsley Building between 45 and 46th are closed. Park & 48 and Mad. & 47 are open.
Anyone know the topic of the tour? Is it a standard tour of architecutre, history of the Terminal, or is it a behind the scenes train tour?
Additionally, is there a fee, and are reservations required?
I'm pretty sure this is the tour sponsored by the NY Division ERA, and there's a fee. ($10?)
--Mark
OK... if anyone can't make it tomorrow but wants to tour GCT, there's another one on Sunday sponsored by the 92 St Y; I just found it in the Times looking for a listing about tomorrow's tour :). The blurb says, "'TOUR: GRAND CENTRAL TERMINAL - THE SCOOP BEHIND OLD MEETS NEW.' A walk through the terminal with an architect who worked on its renovation. Subday at 10 a.m. Fee, $25. Sponsored by the 92nd Street Y. Reservations and meeting place: (212) 415-5500."
The tour is indeed sponsored by the NY Division-ERA, and the fee is $10. Meet at Grand Central Terminal's Vanderbilt Hall (E. 42nd Street & Park Avenue) at 9:45 AM. The guided tour will include a survey of architectural and structural features, plus some surprises (and no, I'm not going to say what they are -- you'll just have to go ). This is a pretty popular tour, so you might want to get there a few minutes early so the NYD-ERA staff can get you signed up (if you're a NYD Member or Subscriber, you should have received a tour flyer with your February mailing -- it'll make things easier for all if you fill out the flyer beforehand and bring it with you).
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
david... so people can buy tickets tomorrow morning?
As far as I'm aware, there is still room. We would rather have had everyone who wanted to go sign up in advance, but that never happens :-) There's usually a limit on the number of people Metro-North will allow on the tour, but I'm not sure what the limit is this year. We try not to turn anyone away, so I'd say that anyone who shows up "at the door" will have a pretty good chance of going -- but I'm not making any guarantees.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
WHYY will televise an interview with Prof. Vukan Vuchic, author of "Urban Public Transportation: Systems and Technology" and other essays and am Amtrak NEC official today, Friday, at 5:30pm. If anyone from Philly watches, let me know how it was.
You didn't miss much. It was basically a commercial for Acela. It was Vuchic and an Amtrak spokesman talking it up. There were some good clips of the trip the host took, and McCain ('s staff) faxed a comment calling for a national debate on rail policy.
Here's a string of messages that made it to my mailbox from contacts at RTY/RTM. In the interest of full disclosure, please note that they have been forwarded at least a coule of times. Also, apologies if this info. has been posted already. (If anyone is interested in planning a SubTalk field trip for the 1st weekend in may for the "celebration," I can try to find out more details from the museum.)
To All:
It's now official. The final day of revenue service for the PCC fleet on NJ Transit's Newark City Subway will be FRIDAY, APRIL 27. The subway will be closed all weekends through that time, and resume operations with the new LRVs on Monday, April 30.
There is to be some type of Special ceremonial operation on Saturday, May 5. As I understand it the line will be closed to regular service that day, but the PCC's will run non-stop between terminals to carry the public for one last time.
Disposition of the fleet has yet to be determined; the cars are expected to be stored. As best as can be determined, there is no plan at present to relocate these cars to the San Francisco Municipal Railway, despite long standing rumors.
Well, folks, that's the story. PLAN ACCORDINGLY if you must.
Regards,
[name and email address omitted for privacy]
Note added by [name and email address omitted for privacy]:
According to normally reliable sources, one of the PCCs is being repainted in the original PSCT color scheme for this event. Unfortunately, having this "celebration" on May 5th causes big conflicts with the East Pen Traction Club show that same day. Perhaps if enough of us mentioned this to NJT Public Relations, they might be willing to reschedule their event for Sunday.
Thanks Pete for the input.
Many of us have taken a "last ride" on the Newark City Subway PCCs.
For those that haven't they are in great shape and are a real cheep date, i.e. take Path from NYC for $1.00 (another great ride & cheep date), then transfer to the PCCs a Newark.
You could even make a whole day of it by doing the HBLR (replacements for the PCCs) on your way back.
If you don't do this you're realy going to kick yourself !
BTW, check out some photos from our 1999 Field Trip, it was one of two we did in the month of June. Sid from NJ was the first tour guide, and Peggy Darlington was the second ... I did both.
Mr t__:^)
>>> they are in great shape and are a real cheep date <<<
But where do you find a date that would enjoy the ride? I've taken a couple of dates to the Orange Empire Railway Museum, and they looked at me as if I were crazy, and I had to make it up to them with a really expensive meal.
In 1955, I was able to impress a college girl in town for the Thanksgiving weekend with an evening ride on the Staten Island Ferry, which at that time cost a nickel, and now is even cheaper.
Tom
The Staten Island ferry would be a bargain at $1.00 for a round trip considering the sights, especially at night.
But on to the rails unfortunately most women don't appreciate the better things of life...trains for one!
You guys are just hanging out with the wrong girls. I'm going to try AGAIN to get my wife to tag along with me for a MetroCard show Sat.
I'll offer to go shopping after & treat her to a nice dinner. She probally still won't go :-(
Mr t
I shall be there. Although I still think that these babies should go to Atlantic City (that way, they'll still be in Jersey, but closer to home). I know what the rest of you will say, but isn't everybody entitled to pipe dreams?
The Newark Subway change-over has been postponed (surprise, surprise, surprise!)
An unimpeachable source says troubles with the new signalling contract have pushed the last day back to Friday, May 11 and the first day of LRVs to May 14. The PCC "Retirement party" will now be May 19.
PLAN ACCORDINGLY, but be on notice this could change again if the Contractors don't get their act togeter.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Us PCC lovers don't mind ONE MORE last trip on them ... so I just might go April 27th. They are in such good shape & to see them in revenue service speeding down the line ... oh life is good.
Mr t__:^)
I still haven't been able to get to Newark yet!
I'd just like to have a trip on them and to be able to photograph them running on the line.
Oh do it or you'll never forgive yourself. If that's not possible try to look at the April 1999 issue of Railpace Newsmagazine. A very extensive article on the line with many fine photos.
Mr t__:^)
Believe it or not, I've never ridden on them. And I lived in Jersey for 6 years! Oh, well....
Thanks to Heypaul, I have a tape recording of those PCCs. One trip sounds as though the cars are Chicago's 6000s.
Well, Steve, some people just love express subways better then trolleys ... I can understand that.
Mr t__:^)
What can I say? I'm a streetcar buff, too, but subways are still top banana to me. Oh, well....
According to Bob S and the NJ-ARP, NJT says the reports are premature. Also, accorsding to Bob's hotline, the May event is also premature.
Would anyone else be interested in a Fantrip the last day of PCC service when the date is more finalized? I ride the PCCs 3-5x a week and will miss then when they are gone. We also could take some more updated pictures for the site.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
PS Anyone Email me if interested or if there is some way I can help.
Mike, I'll bet a lot of people will be interested in riding the PCCs on the last day, SubTalker or not! I'll guess that taking good pictures will be out of the question, too :).
Mike, I'll go again when the weather warms even if it's not the last day. Consider a after work trip when the sun stays up for a while.
We could meet at World Trade Center or Newark.
Mr t__:^)
Warm weather or not, I'm heading out there some night after work when it's light outside. So far, I've only ridden them in the dark.
Oh I wish I had taken the shot of the BMTman half hanging out the rear window in June of '99. We did both those trips starting at 6 PM. The second, with Peggy Darlington, featured PATH, so I have another great memory at Hoboken looking across the Hudson River at dusk. It was my first time there.
Mr t__:^)
An even better shot would have been of the BMTman being led away in handcuffs for farebeating on the second trip ;).
That was your first time in Hoboken?? I discovered it around 1998; my camera got some good exercise in Frank Sinatra Park.
OK. Here is a spur of the moment notice of a field trip to the Newark Subway:
Meet at Newark Penn Station at Noon on 3/2/01. This is day after tomorrow. Meet at McDonalds. I will wait until 12:30 for the first tour and 5:00pm for the second.
Meet at Newark Penn Station at Noon on 3/2/01. This is day after tomorrow. Meet at McDonalds. I will wait until 12:30 for the first tour and 5:00pm for the second.
3/2/01 is Friday. Day after tomorrow is Thursday, unless my calendar is acting up again. Which do you mean, Buffy?
Bob
You passed my test! The day is 3/1/--Thursday
No one was there at noon. I went alone- I spoke to many workers. Foer now it looks like the PCCS will run until at least June due to unfinished work. I will be sending Dave some photos of the stations including the new Orange Ave island platform and the new Branch Brook Park Station (new name for combined Heller and Franklin Stations) plsu soem shots of the extension as taken from the open platform and from the new grade crossing at Franklin Ave. It seems the line will go over a bridge or viaduct. I also saw new LRV 1110A at Newark Penn. The cars are identical to HBLR cars except Newark Subway wheel ar 1- 1/12 inch in diameter smal;ler than their HBLR counterparts.
I had to leave early due after wrenching my back-I dont know how but I will live.
What looked like it would be a totally off-line vacation isn't, thanks to the business center of the Marina del Rey Ritz-Carlton. It's definitely the fanciest hotel I've ever been in - for a moment, I thought I was on an LIRR train from Ronkonkoma, given all the suit-covered anuses in sight :-)
Anyway, the family and I are halfway through our trip to Los Angeles; we arrived Monday afternoon and will be leaving next Monday morning. It doesn't look as if I'll get the opportunity to ride the Metro, but other than that it's been a fun trip. We drove out into the desert on Tuesday, returning by a spectacular mountain drive (CA-74 from the Palm Springs area to San Juan Capistrano, if you've got a map handy), and basically explored the city itself for the past two days. Tomorrow we're planning to explore Beverly Hills and Hollywood in more detail.
Anyway, a few impressions:
1. Getting around Los Angeles is much easier than I'd ever thought. It wasn't hard to get the lay of the land, so to speak, with a short perusal of a street map, and the freeways are very well marked.
2. Downtown Los Angeles, true to stereotype, if not exactly insignificant, is not what I'd call vibrant. There are some skyscrapers (although there seem to be as many or more highrises in the Westside), but not many people on the streets and surprisingly litle vehicle traffic even in the middle of a work day. Some of the streets just outside Downtown were sort of grubby, especially Broadway.
3. Orange County seems like a booming place, lots of corporate offices and industry. I wouldn't be surprised if Downtown Santa Ana has more jobs than Downtown L.A.
4. Apropos of #1, freeway traffic is quirky. It'll move along just fine, then suddenly slow to a near stop, than just as suddenly speed back up again, with no obvious causes such as crashes or construction to account for the changes. Very odd.
5. The mountains surrounding Los Angeles are big. I'd always thought of them as overgrown hills. They aren't, they're towering mountains.
6. People along Sunset Boulevard actually do sell maps to stars' homes. I'd always thought that was sort of a urban legend. It surprises me that it's legal.
Anyway, I'll probably be able to get online a couple more times. And no, I do not miss riding the LIRR!!!
Interesting.
I've been in the Doubletree Pasadena much of the week. All business for me, though. No vacation fun.
CG
4. Apropos of #1, freeway traffic is quirky. It'll move along just fine, then suddenly slow to a near stop, than just as suddenly speed back up again, with no obvious causes such as crashes or construction to account for the changes. Very odd
You were experincing a "phantom" traffic jam. They appear to be caused by nothing in particular. They happen in the ATL all the time. No one knows exactly why they happen, but one theory suggests that one car might brake, then the car behind it will brake, and that just causes a chain reaction of everyone braking. Lo and behold, traffic is then backed up. Another possibility is that there could be lots of marging going on with a busy on ramp, so lots of cars are trying to fit into the same amount of lanes.
5. The mountains surrounding Los Angeles are big. I'd always thought of them as overgrown hills. They aren't, they're towering mountains.
Seattle had some great views of the Cascades, Mt Rainer, and Mt St Helens. Absolutly breath taking.
What are you doing out there Peter? Chillin' with Salami?
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Story in NEWS.
Peace,
ANDEE
This is why the R62s need to have automated announcements! Not that the T/O has any reason to be rude like that to anyone, but if she could of heard what was being said...none of this would of happened. -Nick
Sounds like the straphanger should have been arrested as well. She spat at the T/O, although both traded "shots" at one another (according to the story).
BMTman
Many years ago, when I worked as a bank teller, one of the other tellers was fired for the following incident: The teller was a big guy, 6'4" if I recall correctly. A male customer came up to the window and was rude, insulting and disrespectful. Eventually he spit at the teller's face (accurately). The teller lost his temper, reached out, pulled the man up through the opening above the counter, and used his head for boxing practice. I thought the customer was a total jerk and didn't feel a whole lot of sympathy for him, but I wish the teller had not stooped over to his customer's level - backing off and calling ac supervisor would have been better.
My manager at the time had closed some customer accounts when they became abusive, and told more than one that, being persona non grata, if he/she set foot in the bank branch again, the police would be called.
Guys, you have to be careful around some of these nutjobs out here, because if the straphanger had a weapon, the operator would be in the hospital, or worse. Get management to provide more police protection for situations like that one.
And an automated announcement will make her hear it? Let's be real - people don't listen to the announcements. Hell, they don't listen when we tell them face to face! Why should a tape loop be of any help?
That's why the passenger was slugged in the first place!
It sounds like mutual combat to me; they shoulda either both been charged or neither one charged. Sad thing is a TA motorman will probably lose an otherwise good job, go into the criminal justice system, and then be scarred and unemployable for life. And all this because some a**hole rider could'nt find a more diplomatic and productive way of communicating with another besides saliva and fists!!! All other present and future MTA personnel- learn from this! It just isn't worth it!!! Swallow a little bit of pride rather than a lot of a dismissal and Riker's!! -Peace and non-violence, Thomas :)
P.S.BTW-Why was a TO making station announcements rather than the conductor? Was this a OPTO train? And how did they immediately move the train after the TO was arrested, or did it just sit there delaying service and causing reroutes? If anyone knows, please post!
Railfan looney-toon is going BYE-BYE.
Peace,
ANDEE
lest we be too harsh on darius for some of his nefarious deeds, some good did come out of his ill advised actions in february 2000... the resulting publicity did lead the daily news and subsequently the new york times to do a feature on railfans, which had the direct result of getting me some well deserved publicity for the r9 motorman's cab in my apartment... many of the people i tutor have been reassured that i do not spend my time studying math, but instead devote my energies toward more conventional activities related to subways, greyhound buses, elevators, escalators, and conveyor belt systems...
Hey heypaul, do you know anything about automated mail delivery systems inside large buildings? Sounds like that should be up your alley. The Merrill Lynch building in the WFC had some sort of track system throughout the building that little carts (like 8x10x10" boxes) would ride around on from the mailrooms on each floor to the big mail room downstairs... I thought it would be neat to see a track map of that but I never could find one while I worked there...
Aren;t there hospitals now working with robots delivering meals and medication cabinets to patient room? I believe they work by following a track (electronic signal,not a physical track with rails) programmed into the floor. I don't know much more, though.
Ah, yes, AGVS (Autommated Guided Vehicle System) Where I work, The warehouse has "Stackers" -- kinda like sideways fork trucks which are operator overrideable but the routine steering is controlled by a wire buried in the concrete floor.
Hey heypaul, do you know anything about automated mail delivery systems inside large buildings? Sounds like that should be up your alley.
And then there are the pneumatic tubes that once were used for transferring mail between post offices. Manhattan had quite a network of them, dunno if any remain.
I had liked the automated "monorail" system the main Alexander's at Lexington Av. had. Hanging merchandise (clothes) were hing on these "trolleys" which was a bar about 2 ft long that hung down from wheels running on the rail. This was pushed by a cog system running in an enclosed track over the rail, and hung from the ceiling, and had pieces sticking down, one to push the trolley, and the other in front of the when to stop it from running out of control down grades. The first segment ran down from the truck platform to receiving (sub-basement), and from there the trolleys were directed by hand switches to a huge "yard". Here, the stock men picked up the stuff for their department. Originally, after the merchandise was checked, it would be pushed out of the yard on the rails to either side of the building to be picked up by another monorail that went up to the departments (as far as the 4th floor-- 5th floor was all hard goods) Pins on the trolleys would activate automatic switches on each floor that would either direct the trolleys to that floor, or pass it on to the next. This was quite a rail system. I wish I had seen the whole thing in action. When I first started there (1986) only the platform to receiving portion was used. Stuff did fall off, and it got backed up alot, so I guess they gave up on the upstairs portions (which just collected dust), relying on the stock men. I wished I had taken a picture of it before the store closed. I heard that the Mays on 14th St. had this as well, but that building was gutted before it became Bradlees.
In Schenectady, NY a hardware store from the turn of the century (just across from the main GE plant) named "Wallace Armer Hardware" had a similar system that would carry small parts from the warehouse out to the sales floor as well as money upstairs to the office and was a rather elaborate system built in 1903 or thereabouts. The store went out of business last year. It worked VERY well though right up to closing day and had similar pins to determine where the basket riding the rail was to go to. Somebody DID buy the system though at the liquidation sale so I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't turn up somewhere else ... neatest thing you've ever seen though.
Just in case anyone's interested in the now-gone Schenectady arrangement, found a site that mentions it somewhat:
http://www.deadmedia.org/notes/45/451.html
Somebody DID buy the system though at the liquidation sale so I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't turn up somewhere else...
A complement to an R-9 cab in a Brooklyn apartment, perhaps?
Heh. Ya never know ... it'd be a handy way to get lunch into the cab. :)
Yeah, but he has to get the nose of a Greyhound MC9 first!
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW nice meeting you to-day
The book Underneath New York by Harry Granick, 1947, has a chapter on the mail tubes. The first one was built in Philly from the main post office to a branch one half a mile away in 1893. NY's started in 1897 between the General PO and the Produce Exchange. It then extended to GCT and Brooklyn's GPO. The tube to Brooklyn went over the Brooklyn Bridge. "In a few years, the pneumatic mail tube system extended as it does now [1947] from the Battery to 125th St." (p. 96) 54 mile route covering 23 POs. Mail travelled 30-40 mph. They were still in operation then, but I don't know if any even exist today. Western Union also operated such tubes in many cities.
you may be able to make a map of your own. just follow the worn mark on the carpet or floor. i have seen a few building with "tracks" like that.
conveyor belt systems...
Would that include airport baggage carousels? I always had a fondness for those- the metal ones, not the belt ones.
Woohoo! When's the fan trip? :)
March 14th, departing Newark, with stops in Phoenix, Prescott, and Kingman, Arizona. Return trip on March 21st, departing Kingman, with stops in Prescott, Phoenix, and Newark.
Of course, I don't think Prescott or Kingman have baggage carousels - there's no baggage compartment on Trans Dogpatch.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Calm down. To tell you the truth, it's not as exciting as I led you to believe.
Heh. Here in upstate New York, one of those would qualify as an amusement park. :)
since starting my ego trip club elevatortalk, i have had the good fortune of discovering the wooden escalators of macys 34th and being given a cook's tour of the place by andee...
earlier this week, on the advice of a good friend of mine, i discovered b&h video on 9th ave and 33rd street in manhattan... it is a very large store which has a ceiling height conveyor belt system that brings items from all points in the store to the front cashiers... it really intrigued me watching the operation of the system... at the front of the store, the horizontal conveyors segue into a vertical lift system which brings the goods from ceiling height to the cashiers... i really can't do the system justice in words... if you're interested, be advised that the store is closed early friday afternoon and all day saturday in observance of the jewish sabbath...
my same friend ansel also alerted me to the renovated elevator cabs in the flatiron building on the corner of 23rd street and 5th ave... they are stunning... words also fail me here...
if anyone has any recommendations for interesting elevators, escalators, material conveyance systems, or anything strange, please e-mail me with the info....
oren, from subtalk, alerted me to the huntington station on the washington metro which has an elevator that rides on an incline alongside the regular escalator at that the station... is it considered an elevator or an inclinator?... i found on the web, a description of the stations escalators and elevators... they listed an inclinator... i have never seen a car like that, and i am wondering why it was installed?... was it for handicapped people?
one other request... i have recently become intrigued with the interior of the bradbury building in los angeles... this building was used in the movie "blade runner" which was a wonderful surreal look at the future... does anyone have any pictures that they have taken and would be willing to have posted on elevatortalk... i have found a picture on a website that captures the interior space of the building... it is breathtaking...
bradbury building interior
heypaul, Elevator World did an article about some "inclinators" installed in the Paris Metro (IIRC at Charles de Gaulle-Etoile station). They needed to install an elevator for accessibility but only had diagonal stairway shafts to install it, so you have an elevator that runs at an angle.
B&H's installation is pretty neat, I go there once in a while. It's a toystore for camera and video nuts.
There's a mall in downtown San Francisco with curving escalators, those are neat! Haven't seen any of those elsewhere.
see my post in the Darius thread about the mail delivery system at the Merrill/WFC building...
david... the spiral escalators are manufactured by mitsubishi, who i think is the only manufacturer... as of may 1998, they show a list of 32 different locations worldwide, where the spirals are installed... the san franciso spiral is the only one listed in the united states.. for some examples of their installations try this link to mitsubishi
mitsubishi spiral escalator examples
i was back in b&h this afternoon, and discovered several more spurs off the main line of conveyors... there are several vertical elevators that bring goods up from the basement to the store level or to the conveyor level... also neat is they have a passenger escalator that goes to an upper used equipment section... the sides of the escalator are enclosed in clear plastic so you are able to see quite a bit of the inner workings of the escalator... my guess is that installation of conveyors and lifts must have cost at least $200,000 and i wouldn't be surprised if it was close to $1,000,000... just guessing...
thanks for the info about inclinators... i will have to check into the paris metro installation...
i don't know much about merrill lynch's mail delivery system... i've seen years ago some news shots of one of the post office's automated sorting machines... will have to look into all of this..
I've been to that new B&H store a few times. In fact, I've bought most of my camera equipment from them over the years, except for my cameras themselves. That is a very interesting setup, isn't it?
steve... i've been there twice in the last week... i feel like a kid in awe and wonder just looking at that system of conveyors and lifts... my guess is that system must have cost anywhere from $200,000 to $1,000,000... it is awesome... i'm going back again this week... i'm turning into a b&h photoshop foamer...
From www.dart.org:
"DALLAS Cityplace Station...has two inclinators, elevator-like rooms that move up and down on an incline, like escalators.
Only a half-dozen inclinators exist in the U.S. "
http://www.dart.org/inmotion/summer00/5.htm
.
.
In the following article, you can see the inclinator in the second picture , between the escalators and stairs:
http://www.dart.org/inmotion/Win00/2.htm
bill...thanks for the link to the info about inclinators at dart
i appreciate all the info about escalators and elevators and other odd stuff that people have posted here or e-mailed me... if you know of any more strange stuff, please think of heypaul "the strange one"... thanks
heypaul,
The Bradbury building has appeared in many movies.
Wolf, Jack whatshisname, the movie about werewolves., Chinetown and the Shinning. His eyebrows seem stuck in the raised position. Nicolson! Thats it!
The uniqueness of its interior and its location has made it popular with Hollywood.
I tried your site , but I get stuck with YooHoo.
The USpostal system has some great tracked facilities. One in Kerney NJ and one in Brooklyn , near the closed incinerator around Euclid Ave. I saw the on in NJ on the job many years back. Don't know anything of the Brooklyn site except its for sorting overseas stuff for JFK.
avid
>is it considered an elevator or an inclinator?
I wonder the same about the 3 elevators of the Eiffel tower.
The ones that climb form the ground level to the 2nd level.
Story about AMTRAK adding Acelas next month.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanx for the update, as I'm a big fan of the Acelas and would like to see them even used someday on the LIRR and MNRR!!:) -Thomas
The opening of New York's subway,9pm eastern time
Oh no that conflicks with Far Scape ... I like the TOs of their mass transit vehicles. Seriously, thanks for the tip off.
Mr t__:^)
Well, sort of ....
This week's roundup of events includes: the February 26, 1870, opening of a one-block underground "tube" in New York City, which proved technically and economically impractical ...
It's about the Beach subway.
--Mark
Was anyone on the Times Square N-R platform during rush hour yesterday?? I haven't been on that platform in a while so maybe this has become a regular occurance..but it seems that they've closed off all but one exit on the entire platform for construction.
It was actually very scary because there were 100's of people all trying to get through one small exit at the same time, while people were also trying to get in.. And trains kept coming in to the station one after another making it even more crowded. I started to get nervous that a mob scene would break out! The crowd starting pushing, shoving and being nasty, etc - It took about 15 minutes just to get from the platform to upstairs. There were some MTA workers there to help with the crowd but there was nothing they could do.. and people were PISSED! On my journey upstairs I saw at least 3 people nearly get into fights with them
Wasn't there any other option for this construciton?? It seems like a fire hazard to have so many people all using one exit like that - esp during rush hour.. Did anyone else experience this??
-ws
To help with the crowding at the stairs they could put removable bridges over the express tracks. People exiting then could use either the northbound or southbound staircase. If a train must use the express tracks, they could use the radio to alert a platform conductor to move the bridge.
There is a second exit-- to 40th street and it does include a crossover. The entire Times Square Complex is the busiest in the entire system. The big problem is simple:
People are in a hurry-up mindset and refuse to change their ways. If you've ever seen or read Around the World in 80 Days, Fogg was set in his ways--same meals on the same days, at exactly the same time, water must be at a specific temperature, etc.
Jules Verne must have anticipated the NYC crowds!
Not to be facetious, but I find it hard to believe trains on that line were coming in one after the other.
Service was relatively frequent believe it or not.
-Stef
It seems like a fire hazard to have so many people all using one exit like that - esp during rush hour..
The MTA is not bound by any local fire codes.
It seems like a fire hazard to have so many people all using one exit like that - esp during rush hour..
The MTA is not bound by any local fire codes.
If they were, 72 Street on the Seventh Avenue IRT would've been shut down years ago.
It seems like a fire hazard to have so many people all using one exit like that - esp during rush hour..
The MTA is not bound by any local fire codes.
If they were, 72 Street on the Seventh Avenue IRT would've been shut down years ago.
Unless it would be "grandfathered."
Considering its age, more like GREAT-grandfathered.........
>>>The MTA is not bound by any local fire codes. <<<
Then why are they installing standpipe systems in all of their stations?
Peace,
ANDEE
Common sense? (I know, that and the MTA don't usually seem to go together, but...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
LOL...BTW nice meeting you and jr today.
Peace,
ANDEE
After reading your posting it seems like the T/A has got to do something about the overcrowding problem at the Times Square station. Did it ever occur to them that even during construction they should try to maintain enough room for people to move through. It seems to me that it is pandemonium at the Times Square station when a large number of trains pull into the station in succession and discharge passenegers. They've got to do something about this mess before someone is seriously injured.
BMTJeff
I suppose they could shut the station during the construction. That would be much safer.
I suppose they could shut the station during the construction. That would be much safer.
Actually, they could have fairly easily. For the downtown side, the could have used the downtown express track between 57th to north of Times Sq and bypassed the 49th St Station. Then they could have wrong railed through Times Sq on the uptown express track. This would leave the downtown platform free for rehab. The downtown train would get back to the downtown local track between Times Sq and Herald Sq. A similar procedure could have been used for the uptown platform.
Another opportunity missed?
It seems like to you another opportunity was missed.
BMTJeff
I was among those who tried to control the crowds, and direct traffic flow. From my perspective, most people heeded my instructions. There were those who unfortunately didn't listen and decided to do their own thing. I gotta admit I was annoyed with the folks who didn't listen. There were some who jumped the barricade, others just pushed through it like it wasn't even there. To my knowledge, there weren't any fights, perhaps frayed nerves.
Traffic moved towards the left. The goal was to get the people off the train as quickly as possible and upstairs, and then get the others coming down the stairs into the cars.
Whoa! What a crowd. I can't wait until the construction is all done.
-Stef
OHHH, so YOU were one of those in charge, that explains alot 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
*The following proposal is based on the fact that the R-142/3 deliveries stay on time.
As ridership grows, and the R-143 deliveries are made, this is the way I would change the subway route layouts if I were able to by 2002.
1) Lose the Z train. I would use the Z train cars and some of the new R-143 cars to form a new K train. The K would start from Canarsie and would run with the L from Rock Pkwy to Bway/ENY. Then it would change to the J line and run exp in the peak direction over the J to Myrtle, where it would be joined by the M. The M and K would run express in peak into Manhattan where the J would relay at Broad, the M would go into Brooklyn, and the K would go up 6th Avenue local or express, whichever makes everybody comfortable, and then up the present-day B line to Bedford Park Blvd. This would provide a much faster ride w/o transfer from Canarsie to Manhattan, and would alleviate crowds a bit on the L. Also, this eliminates the fact that both Concourse trains go to Coney Island. Meantime. . .
2) The B train would go through 63rd St with the F. Some trains, if necessary would relay at Lex/63rd on the Broadway tracks since there are no direct Bway-63rd St trains proposed. It would only use one relay track which is enough since they're not all relaying there. Therefore, the issue that the two relay tracks are on different levels is irrelevant. The B trains that survive would go into Queens Blvd and run local to Continental. {The B, R, and V would be the QB locals, each would have 10tph.} And so. . .
3) The R would run to 179th St to provide local/exp service on Hillside and to provide a direct connection to the Lexington line from 179th St. Also, it would alleviate the pressure of Eastern Queens which right now rests solely on the F. The V would run to Jamaica to help the E which is the fastest way into Manhattan from there. This would also make up for the loss of the Z at Jamaica. It also makes the optimum use of the new V train. Right now, under the current proposed plan, the V would end at Continental. To me, that's no good. The main factor of the crowding of Queens Blvd is Eastern Queens. You will have 4 Manhattan trains, but 2 of them would only go to Continental, leaving the ever rising ridership of Eastern Queens to the E/F alone. 63rd St would only be good for riders between 36 St and Continental. Queens Plaza would only have 1 express too, the E. Also, under the proposed plan, 53rd St loses service. Right now, with the 63rd st connector out of use, we have 30 tph in the E/F to serve 53rd, and another 10 in the R to serve 60th, making a total of 40 trains to connect to the 4/5/6 Lexington. However, with the V replacing the F on 53rd, {unless the TA plans to run 15-16 Vs per hour} the number of trains that transfer to the Lexington line decreases. Also, under the proposed plan right now, 63rd St would ONLY get Queens Blvd express service. With that, you eliminate the 5 local stops between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt from enjoying use of the new connector, thereby making it more worthless. 63rd St must have an exp and a local, and connections to Lexington can't lessen. Therefore, 4 Manhattan services aren't enough, which is why I feel that if you take 1/2 to 2/3s of the B trains, you would be able to get the full optimum convenience out of 63rd St. What are your thoughts?
The current E/F/V plan is fine. Have you ever heard of walking? The idea is people who DON'T need to get to Lex can take the F and WALK to their destinations or change to other trains. That K train sounds ridiculous. It sounds really long and useless although I do agree, a train that went directly from Broadway in Brooklyn to midtown would be good. As for the B to 63rd, leave it where it is. They changed the B and B back in 1998 because they didn't want R32s in the Concourse Yard. Before then, some Concourse trains went to Fulton Street.
What they should do is run the Q via 63rd, provided they find the cars.
The K is OK, but I don't want to see the Z go. There is a reason for skip-stop service on the J north (east) of Bwy Jct--that's a long way without an express!
Of course, express all the way to 179th--that's an idea I'm down with! :-)
:-) Andrew
Well.
Haveing the B Line run on the 63 ST tunnel is fine. But haveing the Q line run on the 63 ST tunnel is not fine. Make the Q line run to Ditmars BLVD so like that to help out with the N Line.
Dominicl Bermudez.
I think there should be more of a difference between Circle q and Diamond Q then just Brighton Local and Brighton Exp. The lcl/exp setup should continue onto the bridge/tunnel and broadway lcl/exp, so Brighton riders get choices and 4th Ave won't be complaining about Brighton having two bridge routes, two Bway exps, both all the way to 57th. And if both got extended past there and into Queens, they'd go nuts.
"they'd go nuts."
Who will go nuts? The Passengers or the Driver of the train?
Dominick Bermudez.
To avoid the confusion for every riders, The diamond Q should be yellow and circle Q remains orange.
Now, that'll confuse just about everyone. Not only will they have to put up with circle/diamond Qs, now they have to put up with two different colors running on the same line. Also, it'll look weird to see an orange line of any type run up Broadway, but I guess they have no choice since that's what's in the signs.
Well, you're absolutely right, lets not forget that we've already seen an orange line runs on broadway line. That was the time when the TA removed D train to N/R line during the manhattan bridge shutdown in some weekends last year. On other hand, the TA does have no choice whether or not the future Q will be orange or yellow. The Yellow Q already exist on TA system! The Yellow Q was used in the service when the south side manhattan bridge were still in use back in the 80's period before it was finally shutdown.
1)Do Not get rid of the Z. That local service to Jamaica is slow, and the cars used on the Z are basically the same cars on the J (MOST). Running this "K" service is a waste: The Chrystie St. Connector will never get enough service to justify this (most cars have a blue K car roll sign).
2)Keep the B on CPW (at least during periods when bridge is open). A lot of people ride from 59th across the manhattan bridge. Unless that connection is closed (as it will become in August), the B should run with the D across the bridge and up to the Bronx.
3)I understand that there is a need for connections to Lex. trains. But, you can't run the B out to Queens. It's the Central Pk. West local. Further, the local tracks on Q. Boulevard lines cannot have 3 trains running on them. It's the same problem as the Lex. line. The R should run to 179th, but people will complain about riding the local all the way to manhattan (instead of transfering to the express.) The present setup still gives enough service to all lines feeding into QB/6th av/53rd. St. Even though tons of people get off at 53rd, not everyone is transfering to lex. trains.
The present service plans for regular service are fine. It's the Manhattan Bridge re-routes that scare me.
I rode 1583 from borough hall the other day going from borough hall to 42nd. This 4 Train had to at least be doing 45. The T/O she was flyin, except for BLKER street. she was creepin like TLC(LOL). she was doing about 5mph over there, then she got the Resume speed. speedy ride I must say
They are in the process of replacing the ballast with concrete roadbed in the vacinity of Spring Street on the uptown express track. You can't go fast in that area.
The track is being worked on at Bleeker Street. With no concrete holding the track in place, do you think crews would want to run that fast over that stretch of track?
-Stef
I was riding the El today toward CC and at an overpass near Girard Ave. (it may have been under I-95) there were three or four junked cars under the bridge. The had no rooves, so I couldn't make out if they were PCC's or el cars or what. The ends were trapezoidal like a PCC. There were standing on tracks that ran no further than their lengths. Has anyone seen these or know what they might be? Are they from the destruction of Fairmount Station and the reconstruction along I-95 and Spring Garden Station?
I know those cars, and I see them every day on my way to work. I wondered for a very long time what they were, and then somewhere, I can't remember where, I read that they were actually used to haul other trolley cars. This explains the long lfat bed into between the cab sections at each end, and the crane-like structures on them as well. I'm not sure if this is accurate, because it's been a long time since I read this, and I don't even remember if it was a reliable source.
Mark
For those who aren't going to Grand Central and have access to private transportation, URHS-sponsored EastRail will take place tomorrow at Warren Hills Regional High School, Washington (Warren County [there are over 20 Washingtons in NJ]), NJ. Carl Perelman has posted the program on Railpace's website:
One Last Look - A look at the Lackawanna MU's by Bob Bahrs.
Relics: Remnants Of Railroading's Past - A "detailed" view at railroads by Thomas Baker.
Ride This Train - Scenes across the country set to Johnny Cash music presented by Steve Barry.
A Black and White Perspective - Depicts black and white photography of the 1950s and 1960s presented by Gene Collora.
Santa Fe In The Southwest - A presention by George Hiotis.
SP Memories - A look at the Southern Pacific during the 1990s by Terry LaFrance.
B.A.F.A.T.S. 1978 Western Foam-A-Thon - An 18 day tour to see the best of the west presented by Vic Neves.
East of The Hudson - Contemporary New England freight railroading by David Patch.
Movin' On, Movin' Out - look at the AutoTrain, Cuyahoga Valley, and West Virginia Northern by Mark Perri.
A Grande Quarter Century - A 25 year retrospective of the Rio Grande by Scott Snell.
Doors open at 9 AM, show starts at 10 in the auditorium. The cafeteria will be packed with vendors and railfan clubs selling railroadiana, books, magazines, et. al., during intermissions and lunch break.
Three or four years ago EastRail was held at Bergen Tech, and the lunchtime highlight was the boiler teacher performing a whistle blow using live steam from the school's boiler blowing whistles salvaged from many NJ and NY locomotives and ferries.
Everyone keeps talking about the R-142's on the 2 and 6 lines. What lines will get the r-142's? Will the 5 get any? It seems to me that the 6 should get only a few cars, the 6 has had the r-62's. 2 and 5 riders have had to suffer through the intolerable torture of the ridbirds. I think 2 and 5 trains should get the r-142 cars, with any "extra" cars going to the 6 line, and r-62's going back to being single unit cars and going to the 7.
Another thing: DO NOT COMPARE THE REDBIRDS TO THE R-142'S!!!! (Sorry)
Though the redbirds may be more 'reliable' than the r-142's, the r-142's have many more complex parts that the redbirds do not. This is like comparing typewriters to word processing programs: tyewriters might not crash, but they certainly don't have the power of wordpad, the simplest program.
And, don't scrap the R-110a's, put them on the 5 shuttle, opto.
I have wondered why the 6 gets them before the 5.
I don't think the linked cars can become single again.
And if you use the R110A for OPTO on the 5, what do you do with it for the other 19 hours of the day? Let it sit in a yard and burn again?
Doing the 19 hours.R110A will be put back togeter into 1 10 CAR sets and run the #5 Line. Then when comes time to the #5 Shuttle. Put then in 2 5 Car sets.
That's eazy huh.
Dominick Bermudez.
>>>That's eazy huh. <<<
Almost TOO easy, but then again the TA isn't known for common sense.
Peace,
ANDEE
1 - R62A
2 - R142
3 - R62A
4 - R62, R142/R142A
5 - R142
6 - R142A
7 - R62A
9 - R62A
Now is that a guess or do you have hard information to this effect?
What I heard from a ranking IRT Motor Instructor was:
1: R-62As (basically no change but a few more trains)
2: R-142s
3: R-142s, R-142As
4: R-62s, R-62As (incl. singles for the S)
5: R-142s
6: R-142As
7: R-62As (incl. singles for 11-car trains)
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The only thing different is between the two lists is the 3, 4, and 7 Trains. The 3 Line will be giving as many singles needed to replace the singles on the 7 Line. Not the whole fleet. Then the R62As missing from the 3 Line will be made up by 5-car sets from 6 Line. And the remaining stuff on the 6 will be given to the 7. The 6 will have no fleet and get some new R142As. The 4 Line fleet of redbirds will be replaced by either R142s or R142As.
I think you guys are wrong
1) R62a's
2)R142's
3)R62a's
4)R62's
5)R142's and good condition redbirds
6)R142a's
7)Redbirds with a few sets of R62a's
The Redbirds will last to at least 2004
Well, all's I know is there is pressure from the MTA Board Chairman down to ditch ALL, repeat ALL of the Redbirds as soon as possible.
The added new cars will bring the total fleet up to 2690 from the pre-2000 total of 2550 so there's no doubt more than enough to do so.
As for the 7 line, there are only 39 singles to make up those 11-car trains, so the mnost single R-62As required is 45, but I believe they'll get less. That's only 4 trains' worth so when there are sufficient R-142As on the 6 to give up 40 unitized R-62As, they can go to the 3 and kick an equivalent number of singles to the 7.
Ten once you've got the 40 or so singles in Queens and get the crews qualified, you can start shipping 5-car units over there off the 6 (replaced by R-142As) to make up the 11-car trains and retire the Worlds Fair cars.
The big unknown is how quickly the R-142As will be phased in on the 6, but IF they do well in coming months then Flushing line could be all R-62As by late fall.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The MTA Board Chairman is a know-nothing Pataki lacky with zero institutional memory from the R44 & R46 disasters. He will be in for a lot of pushback for retaining Redbirds. The R142 at present is not dependable, the excuse for their being so is irrelevant. If he indeed scraps the Redbirds when (not if) a new fleet-wide R142 problem, it will be his ass on the line, and hopefully that of the entire MTA board of political trolls.
E. Virgil CONway has already announced his retirement.
Peace,
ANDEE
...To be replaced by real estate developer and former New York Post publisher Peter Kalikow as new MTA chairman. I understand after the 71-year-old Conway retires they're planning to tow him out into the Atlantic and dump him in for use as a new artificial offshore reef :-)
"The Redbirds will last to at least 2004."
No they won't....the option order is arriving in January of 2003.
As far as I know, the #7 will get R-62As at tome point from the #6, but it could certainly be the last line for redbird replacement. Perhaps in 2003 the #7 will have R62As and a few R-142s from the option order. -Nick
Corona is not technologically equipped to handle R142's.
Neither was the shop at 180th Street...but they changed that. At some point the yard will have to be set to handle the new technology...whether it is with the redbird retirement, or 20 years down the line when the R62As are put to rest. -Nick
There were plans to rehab Corona Yard. Now it's back to the drawing board. The Federal Government Enviornmentalists have shot the plan down due to the TA needing additional land in the marshy wetlands to build a loop track. They are protected by enviornmental conservation laws, and any additional tracks built there may sink anyway. Again, the TA is re-evaluating as to what the next step will be.
I had a couple of days off last week so last Thursday I rode the rails. I wanted to concentrate on the Manhattan Bridge and the Brooklyn approaches to Coney Island. I took the E from my home station of Jamaica Van Wyck down to West 4th for an excellent cheap lunch at the Papya King. Afterwards, I hopped a Q, the first train I saw with a railfan window and headed to Brooklyn. After a few short stops we were headed over the Manhattan Br & I tried to count the number of trains I'd pass going the other direction. I think I counted 3. I thought to myself, I dream of a day when I can look to the left and see Broadway trains running at the same time as the 6th Avs. A few years off I guess. Anyway the jump through Downtown Brooklyn was unremarkable until emerging at Prospect Park where the open cut starts. It was a cool day and the train picked up nice speed darting down E 16th towards Brighton Beach. It reached the end way too soon. I even got a chance to chat with the motorman. He was unfortunately locked in his cabinet because some schoolkids had kicked in his cab door. The cads. Anyway he was brave enough to ride all the way up to 21st (apparently it happened while he was going northbound) and come all the way back don to Brighton before calling the train OOS. Better than me, I thought, I'm claustrophobic and the closeness would have killed me. Anyway, I wished him well and crossed under the platform to wait for the D which took forever to show up. The day had gotten downright cold. Anyway, after a while the D showed up. I noticed none of them have railfan widows anymore, few Bs either. Maybe I'm spoiled or I've been away so long but I remember being able to look out of windows on most of the lines. Anyway we reached the decrepit CI complex in no time. It'll be better after the remodeling but just wait for those diversions...Anyway I decided that whichever line had a train with a window would be the one I'd take. Would it be the Sea Beach, or the West End? The Culver just seemed like a waste, elevated stations with little personality and an unremarkable ride save for my beloved jaunt over Smith and 9th. Anyway there was an N waiting with a window so that was it. I wouldn't have gotten a window on a B anyway. So afer about 10-15 min we headed back towards the city. I couldn't get to the window because there were TA employees waiting to be dropped off before Av U. I can say that right? I gave no names. Anyway, after Av U, I got to the front after beating a grade schooler out. Damn whippersnappers. Anyway the N was kool but someone kicked out one of the seats from the last car onto the tracks! We had to pause at Kings Highway I think & wait for the conductor to isolate the last car. Crazy. Anyway the PA system seemed to be problematic too on the Sea Beach, the TO had to step onto the platform to transmit a couple of times. Anyway we headed towards 4th Ave while I watched M trains deadheading for 36th for rush hour operation on the middle track. At 36th I decided that I wanted to see the South Ferry station on the 1 so I made maneuvers to get there. I switched over to an M at 36/4 and found to my dismay that it was a local. It has been a while since I looked at that map. I decided that a glimpse of my pretty stations of Broad and Fulton would be a better trip than the meander through the bowels of Lower Manhattan on the N. To my surprise (pronounced dismay) the Broad and Fulton stations have been retiled from the beautiful post-modern tiling of the IND system (an oddity on the BMT) to the Arts & Crafts style of the BMT. To me a step down, ala the bland dark blue retile of the beautiful sky blue Broadway & Lafayette Station. I tell you what, if they retile Court St I'll have a fit. That tile color is my favorite. Anyway, I got to Chambers St and decided to wait for a 1 or 9 with a clear unobstructed view of the front. 1 train, 2 trains, 3, 4, 5. There were none! I had to settle for looking through the TO compartment to get into South Ferry. It was all over too quick but worth it though. The last time was there was years ago. Kool station, holding only 5 cars. That GO with the backwards 2 sounds interesting too. Maybe I'll skip work or something to check it out..naa. Anyway that was about it, a perfect way to spend an afternoon on the trains. Hey hope I've made a worthy contribution, you guys' make my boring workday interesting. Conmments, recollections, & constructive criticism appreaciated.
Great report. I always enjoy reading them. Makes up for me not being able to come over this March.
Simon
Swindon UK
You will find no railfan window on the following lines:
B, D, F, Rockway Shuttle, Franklin Shuttle, 1, 9, Grand Central Shuttle
It will be hard to find a railfan window on the following lines:
A, C, G, N, R, 4, 6
It is easy to find a railfan window on the following lines:
E, J, L, M, Q, Z, 2, 3, 5, 7
Hope that helps.
Actually, now a days, as I've said before, on just about all of the R46s and R68s it is possible to see out the front because recently a good cleaning was made of a lot of the tint so on R46s you can see not only outside, but also the drivers cab and same on the R68s though they may be a little tougher. In terms of the A I'm not sure. But if I may rewrite your list:
Right now:
No railfan window on:
A {possibly}, Everything else usually lets you see something
Unclear railfan window on:
A {possibly}, B, D, E {most of the time}, F, G, N {most of the time}, R, S {both of them}, 1, 4, some 6, all 9
Clear window on:
Very rare on the B, all C, rare on the E, all J, L, M, some N, all Q, some R, all Z, 2, 3, some 4, all 5, some 6, all 7
Not on the last R46 I rode.
There seems to be 1 in 4 R46 E's, though. On alot of the R46's (as well as R68 D trains) the window through the cab isn't covered.
From what I last heard, I was under the impression only 2 to 4 8 car trains are on the E daily. I got an R46 E back in December after missing an R32 but since I was in a rush to get to Penn Station, I decided not to wait for an R32.
fun read...now that I have migrated to the left coast...railfanning on BART just doesn't have the same appeal.
While waiting for the #6 line coming from work & i was stock that i saw R26/28/29 Lead Cars 7750/7751-8750/8751-7909/7908-7923/7922-7884/7885 putting into 125th st Station. I got on & i stay until before the last stop. i took few pictures of 7750 & 7885. One last question when the last time 77xx, 78xx & 79xx ran on #6 line?
Peace
David Justiniano
www.geocities.com/justin2669/NYCTransiTrans.html
That's a very unusual asignment indeed!
Did you happen to notice how many R-142As were out there, if any?
That might indicate an unexpected car shortage...
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I saw R142 7241-7250 & 7271-7280 running with passerger on during rush hour.
Peace
David Justiniano
www.geocities.com/justin2669/NYCTransiTrans.html
I'm glad that you saw some R-142A subway cars running yesterday. I hope to ride one of those new cars soon.
BMTJeff
When I rode the 7 on Thursday, there was a #6 strip map in the car.
I think u had 9550, John. I rode that car recently and she still had the 6 sign in her. I had 9543 today and 9557 yesterday on the 7 and they both had 7 signs in them. I looked in 9538 and 9539 and they also have the 7 signs in them.
R36#9557Gary
That's very odd. They are usually on the 5. It's great to see 7750 running. It's the oldest revenue car, correct?
There has been some debate as to whether or not 7750-51 arrived on the property before any of their R-26 sister units.
In 1993 I saw a train on the #2 line with R-26/28/29 cars coupled together on the same train. I have seen trains with the same motley assortemtn of cars since.
BMTJeff
The ultimate for me was seeing a train of Redbirds with ten consecutively numbered cars. Now here's the ultimate sighting: a train of ten consecutively-numbered single cars. I've never seen one of those.
In 1993 I saw a train on the #2 line with R-26/28/29 cars coupled together on the same train. I have seen trains with the same motley assortment of cars since.
BMTJeff
Before 1995, these R26/R28/R29 trains belonged to 239 Street Yard. Since then these cars were transferred to E180 Street Yard. Right now you see most of them running on the #5 line.
Chaohwa
I have seen those trains running on the #5 line on occasion.
BMTJeff
I saw R26# 7753 about two weeks ago. (I thought it would've been on the scrap track by then) At that point, I KNEW the 142's were in a little trouble. That car reminded me of an R9, when I boarded.
This week theirs alot of strange things on the #2 & #5 lines. I've seen R26/28/29 on the #2 line & some R33 on the #5 line. What the hell is going on @ 239 & E180 St Yards?
It's called: "Trying to make full service."
Not to mention "Calling the Bondo Squad".:-)
They've been doing that from time to time since about 1998.
I don't remember seeing 7700s on the "6" train, but the last time the 7800s operated on the "6" was back in 1984/85. They were taking out of service for rebuilding and when they came back, they went straight to the "2" train.
I'm off to the other side of the pond. I'll give you a little report from Europe while I'm there. Only problem is that I hate flying (HON, GET THAT DRAMAMINE READY!!!).
Zman179.
I hope you will have a nice and a safe trip to Europe.
And People have to do things that don't like. You might start get used to flying. Is this your first time flying at all?
Dominick Bermudez.
>>>You might start get used to flying. Is this your first time flying at all?<<<
Heck no. I've probably taken about 30 flights. I just can't stand flying.
Have a wonderful, safe and fun trip.
And, as Orville Wright said, "Any landing you walk away from is a good one."
I think it has to do with being a railfan. I hardly EVER take the plane anymore from DC to New York.
have fun zman!! let me know if you come across any trains that catch your attention
Have a great trip... I will have just arrived by the time you're heading back. Save a good seat on the Tube for me!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Have a GOOOOOD time
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't expect anybody to post them here, but can anybody direct me to a site, or anything else that would list all of the past route car assignments. I haven't been a railfan really until about '96, and the only few things I remember about car changes are:
The R40/R68A swap between the B and the Q in 1997/8
The taking over of the R line with R46s in the early 90s
The taking over of the E line with R46s just recently
Anything related to the R-142
The E Line isn't taken over by the R46s. It's one or two but still mostly R32s.
I'm not sure about that. I see them, but I find it hard to get on an R32 E nowadays.
I can assure you that most trainsets on the E are R32's with a few R46 sets thrown in. I should know. I work there, doing 20 round trips per week.
That's just "one of those things" when you are lookiing for R-38s they just don't show up. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I read about the T/O who got arrested while on the job, after being hassled by some nutcase who did not like the message announcement over the loudspeakers. Guys, when a nutjob gets on your nerves, back away from them and radio for the cops. The poor guy will probably catch hell from the crowd at 370 Jay Street.
(Guys, when a nutjob gets on your nerves, back away from them and radio for the cops.)
Amen. You might be dealing with the equivalent of the guys who go postal in Sunbelt traffic jams.
I get to see worse than that. The clowns who killed the people at the Wendy's restaurant, the ATM rapist, the silver gun rapist, the fool who cut up his girlfriend, boiled her into a stew and served it to the homeless, and other assorted pillars of society. What a bunch.
Just watch yourselves on the subway, as there are those who have nothing better to do with themselves than to cause problems for others because they are miserable, and misery loves company.
What would the managers at 370 Jay street inflict on the operator if given the option?
"The clowns who killed the people at the Wendy's restaurant,"
Yeah well that really put Flushing in a nosedive. I should've seen this decline coming for awhile now. Some of the most depressing, run down, graffiti filled sites along the Pt.Washington line are in Flushing. And you get to see at the stuff thrown around the tracks, as well garbage on top of buildings. The graffitti is really, really bad on those buildings that face the tracks. Especially in that stretch just west of Main street, and between Main street and Murray Hill. With all those run down low-rise apartment buildings it looks like the South Bronx.
The Wendy's incident is just a sign of the times in the new high crime area in Queens, Flushing. A friend of mine knows quite a few people who have been robbed in Flushing, in broad daylight and busy times. The only place I feel safe in Flushing is the 7 subway station (subways can actually be safer than streets in some neighborhoods).
On a more rail related note, I think I saw the connections to the Whitestone branch right by the Van Wyck.
The W/B connection has a short stretch of rail, eastbound it's a little longer, and had 3rd rail on a short stretch.
Yeah well that really put Flushing in a nosedive. I should've seen this decline coming for awhile now. Some of the most depressing, run down, graffiti filled sites along the Pt.Washington line are in Flushing. And you get to see at the stuff thrown around the tracks, as well garbage on top of buildings. The graffitti is really, really bad on those buildings that face the tracks. Especially in that stretch just west of Main street, and between Main street and Murray Hill. With all those run down low-rise apartment buildings it looks like the South Bronx.
You think Flushing's bad, go to Los Angeles sometime and check out some of the 'hoods immediately surrounding downtown, e.g. MacArthur Park, Broadway, Echo Park.
I have to keep reminding myself that the best thing to do with a nutcase or an arrogant passenger is to let them vent and don't say anything. That person may be looking for a comfrontation and if I'm not going to bite at the bait, that gets the person more annoyed! As far as radioing for the cops, the TA cares more about moving the railroad rather than for the safety of their worker. A crew member may request police, but the police will not chase down a train. Control Center on the radio says: "Signal en-route." That's just dandy, but the police are not trained on the horn/whistle signal which the motorman gives! If I or any other transit worker gets injured on the job, we become a statistic, and there are plenty of people to take our place. I read a letter in the Daily News the other day in which this woman has a personal vendetta against station agents because she was robbed while the agent was emptying the turnstile and he did not use himself as a human shield to stop the perp. One more vent: The Daily News has this he said she said thing on page 3. Yet a few weeks ago, a station agent was stabbed by a homeless guy as the agent was returning from the toilet at the Seneca Ave. M line station. Don't get me wrong: 2 wrongs don't make a right, but did the News report that on page 3?
Your technique might work in some instances, but when the idiot gets physical, what then? As for the media, they are only concerned with selling their papers, which are only fit for lining the bottom of the bird cage. Transit workers are exposed to very dangerous situations, and the insanity can get to you sometimes. Stay strong.
I have to keep reminding myself that the best thing to do with a nutcase or an arrogant passenger is to let them vent and don't say anything.
That's true, of course, but sometimes obnoxious people can be really, really hard to take. I sort of understand how a transit worker (or other person dealing with the public) can be pushed just a bit too far.
When I worked there back in the beginning of the 70's, with lots of ragged equipment where we had to dump the geese often at local stops to ABD a train, we took a LOT of guff from the geese when things went unhappy and we're talking hour or more delays on their morning trip where they'd hear their bosses whine about "you're late one more time and you're FIRED" and they really meant it, the stuff we'd take when we had to deal with, "hey, the train broke down - I KNOW you're inconvenienced, but I just had to go under the damned third car to put the trip cock back in so I could charge the train ... would YOU like to go back there and lay on your belly like a snake under a car knowing your toes were two inches from the third rail?" was just not an option.
At least back in THOSE days, folks who worked the TA got a pretty good paycheck for the crap ... and STILL there were geese I just wanted to beat with a baseball bat ... but ya just can't do it. In today's happy times, I can imagine the TA would string up anyone who failed to properly respirate on the posterior of the geese ... heh. But folks riding the boxcars these days probably don't realize how good they have it now. Today, folks actually manage to get where they're going on the SAME DAY THEY LEFT! :)
I really enjoyed reading your post, you might consider reading "Underground Woman" by NYCTA alumnus Marian Swerdlow, it was written during this dark period in MTA history known as the 1970s! -Peace, Thomas:)
Speaking as someone who has dealt with the public for over 30 years, I live by this motto: THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY'RE WRONG.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have been able to get a close look at the pilot models of MTH's R-21 subway cars as displayed at Toyfair. These models are magnificent! The body is near scale (within inches of overall length and other critical dimensions), with loads of molded-in detail. The subtle roof contours at the ventilators have been duplicated perfectly, and there are the correct number of rivets in the arch roof! There is a lot of fine modeling effort in these cars. For example, the storm door drop-sash windows even feature the corner window frame reinforcements on the drop-sash portion. Neat! Colors and decoration are superb, with the correct shade of "David Gunn Red", having been matched to the actual tuscan red paint of the prototype. The destination signs are accurately modeled for the #2 Broadway Express. The cars utilize the same trucks and drive as MTH's successful R-42 cars, previously released. Since these were pilot models, I cannot comment on the Protosounds station stop sequences, which are still being programmed. Thanks to everyone in the New York City Model Transit Association (particularly Joe Frank and Nate Gerstein) for their help in getting these models done right!
Again, these are going to be a GREAT toy train product! As good a job as could have been done given the realities of mass production. If you haven't yet placed your order for a set, I would not hesitate, as I expect these to sell out almost immediately. They represent MTH's finest effort in model rapid transit to date. Hopefully, they will be at dealers in April. Start drooling fellows, the R-32's are not far behind!
Has the roof distortion (from lightbulb heat) problem that plagued the MTH R-42 D-Train been solved on the R-21's?
Karl,
I don't know of a heat DISTORTION problem. Certainly the original ("D" Train) R-42's got quite warm from the bulbs, but I've never experienced a distortion problem in an hour's running time. Perhaps with longer run times that is (was) an issue. On the re-issue of these ("E" Train), MTH changed the bulbs so that they would not run as hot. The same lower voltage bulb circuit is in the R-21's. That should cure any distortion problems (if they ever existed in the first place).
The D train motor car (4714) developed swelling in three places on the edges of the roof near the middle of the car. This occurred over a period of time, but the train was never run for more than fifteen minutes during a session. It was pulling its trailers and the add-on set, for a total of six cars, during each session. The three swellings were directly over three of the four lights in the middle of the motor car. I have no idea why the swelling did not occur over the fourth bulb as well.
MTH replaced the 4714 shell at no charge, but did not replace the low voltage bulbs, so I assume that the problem could redevelop with use. To prevent swelling of the new shell the train is currently not being used.
Since the add-on cars are already dimly illuminated it would seem that the solution would be to replace all 24 of the bright bulbs in the original four car set with matching higher voltage bulbs
This could be an expensive (24 bulbs), and a labor intensive project!
It is a beautiful train, and it would be nice to get it running again.
Karl, Apparently, MTH went to a higher voltage bulb on the R-42 E trains. I have the two running side by side and the E is virtually dark by comparison.
Steve, You have just run a test that I have been wondering about, but no one in my area has an E train.
It would seem, to be on the safe side, that the 24 bulbs in the original four car D train should be replaced with higher voltage bulbs used in the E train. I am assuming that the D Train 2 car add-on set already has the higher voltage bulbs.
Yes it does - as does the Add-on E trains. The problem is they are much much to dim. We need a compromise bulb.......
Do you think that the stick on reflecter material similar to what Lionel used on their #60 trolley back in the 1950's would work? I guess that it is supposed to reflect the bulb heat so that the roof does not absorb it.
and it acts as a heat sink.
Karl,
John may be right - to some extent. I think that LEDs will likely be the way to go. Especially with a regulator chip, it should eliminate much of the brightnes changes related to speed changes. I suppose that one day I'll have time to play with the trains instead of working on them.
After reading Karl's post here, I posed an inquiry about the possibility of roof distortion (see the thread on "Melting Roof") on the O-Gauge Railroad Magazine Forum (www.ogaugerr.com). It seems that MTH at some point realized there was a problem with the bulbs' heat and started inserting the reflective tape inside the cars on the "E" train sets (The 2162 and 63 series). I have two sets of these (both the Protosound and the non-Protosound models) and they do indeed have the reflective tape installed.
As far as LED's are concerned....TrainAmerica (www.tastudios.com) makes several constant-intensity white LED modules, which can replace the headlight and marker light bulbs on many model trains. I will probably install them in place of the headlight bulbs on my MTH sets, and may even use them to illuminate the large letter rollsigns on the front ends. I also inquired on the OGR forum as to their suitability for passenger car interior lights. I was told that the light from the white LED's are not diffused enough and won't look right. I am looking into other alternatives, such as fibre-optic kits.
There has been some discussion on that forum as to how many cars the MTH subway set can pull safely. Indeed, if you run 6 or more cars, you need to run it at a higher voltage, which generates considerably more heat than if you just run the four-car set. These cars use sleeve-bearing axles rather than the needle-point axles found on many model railroad freight trains, and thus require more power to pull them. (Obviously, regular lubrication is a must!) I plan to modify both of my MTH sets with Digital Dynamic's "Equalizer" board and run them using Lionel TMCC Command Control. I will be able to lash-up the Protosound set with the non-Protosound set and run a four-motor (two "locomotive") eight or ten car train. The added torque should allow me to lower the throttle, and thus the trains will run cooler.
This also has an added advantage: Once I get the new R-21 sets (I'm getting two at the outset to run an 8-car train), and the upcoming MTH DCS command controller, I will be able to run BOTH the R-42 and R-21 sets in full command mode. (MTH's Protosound-2 trains cannot be controlled in command mode with the Lionel controller.) Throw in the mix some of the wonderful modules produced by IC Controls, epecially their "Action Recorder Controller"--- and one can automate many of the trains' actions...speed changes, signalling, horn toots, brake squeals, P.A. announcements, and so on.
Okay, since practically all the people here have their fantasy transit ideas, and since me and my friend Chris talked about the possibility of creating a site with our ideas for Portland transit, I am combining it.
FANTASY TRANSIT WEBSITE
Everyone's ideas are welcome and we will post them without a hitch. I've got a namezero redirect and 75 megs worth of Geocities space, and I'm ready to start building. Debut will probably be in about a month. What should you do?
SEND US YOUR FANTASY TRANSIT IDEAS.
IOf you just have a system map that's totally cool. If you want to type a description that's totally cool. And this is not limited to real cities...places like Jersey Mike's imaginary island would be great too. All you need is a scanner (or a friend who has a scanner) and email...I'll do the rest. My address is
Talgo79@aol.com
Okay the fantasy transit thread had EVERYONE posting about their ideas. So post again! Geez. Or someboyd give me the URl for the thread so i can go email you all personally. There's enough info to make a hugeh kick-@$$ website if everyone pitches in
What's the URL of this site? I just posted the routes for my RIPTA system on my page: www.geocities.com/ripta42/risubway.html. No map yet, though.
I won't have an URL until I get more than just like two maps though. The Rhode Island thing is wonderful...with your permission I would post that. I'd probably debut the whole thing in about a month...it would look really nice. Until then everyone would just have to have blind faith in sending me their maps and descriptions, lol.
Thanks! I'd like to get a map done already, since 99.99% of the world has no idea where any of those streets are :). I don't know if I trust you with "blind faith," though; you could be using these for evil somehow, or putting them on your teen modeling pages ;)
About two hours ago, Wacker Drive between State and Franklin was shut down for the first phase of a long-awaited massive reconstruction project. From what I understand, the entire roadway will be completely torn down and rebuilt from the ground up. Historic architectural ornamentation will be removed, kept in storage during the construction, repaired and replaced onto the new structure. This should make for some good photos during construction; I'll be sure to take some and post them to SubTalk. Construction should be well underway by the time SubTalkers arrive in town for the Chicago field trip.
Rapid transit won't be affected unless they do something really dumb like drive a piling through the roof of an underwater tunnel or accidentally knock down the L, but 12 CTA bus routes will be rerouted during the construction period. Street parking and deliveries have been banned from all Loop streets during rush hours, and Kinzie Street has been converted to one-way operation.
In a fitting closing ceremony, the "Bluesmobile" (The converted police car that Jake and Elwood Blues drove down Lower Wacker Drive as part of the climatic chase scene in The Blues Brothers) was driven down Wacker Drive followed by several Chicago police cars with their lights and sirens on. Nice touch.
More details to come as the project progresses.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Saw a bit in the Trib:
This also just in
Jim Jablonski, who runs our town's House of Blues, will take the last ride on Wacker Drive on Friday before the big construction project. He will be in the Bluesmobile, announcing the closure over the car's loudspeaker at 8 p.m.
No photos though ... bummer. I'd love to have SEEN that ...
Ravenswood and Evanston L trains will face some delays, something about the work around the supports, or the supports' supports.
Anybody answer these 2 questions? 1. Why did the Sea Beach and West End swap equipment in 1963, with the ABs going from the West End to the Sea Beach, and the D-types coming off the Sea Beach to the West End?
2. The only true section of "lattice" type el left in NYC stands on the Culver line between Avenue X and Neptune Avenue, why is it that the rest of the Culver el is standard plate girder, while this short section is lightweight "lattice" el?
2. The only true section of "lattice" type el left in NYC stands on the Culver line between Avenue X and Neptune Avenue, why is it that the rest of the Culver el is standard plate girder, while this short section is lightweight "lattice" el?
There was a steel shortage during WWI, while this section was being built. The unconfirmed story that I heard is that this section uses recycled steel from the Fulton St. El.
Yes, I recall that Phil Copp made note of that fact in an addendum to one of his BRT books relating to the razing of the old Fulton Ferry-Hudson Street Elevated Line.
I think that's where I read about the steel being used by the BRT for other elevated structures.
BMTman
The Fulton Ferry-Hudson St line was not part of the Fulton St Line. It was razed more than a decade before the Culver El was built. The sections of the Fulton St Line that I was referring to were part of the 3 tracking operation that was contemperaneous. I have not personally seen period documentation that confirms this.
Along with the third tracking, came the upgrand in bents and stringers to heavy duty standards.
My theory is that since the West End was not a fulltime service, the IND-chauvinistic TA favored the Standards on a fulltime service over the "weird" Triplexes.
Weird Triplexes? Weird Triplexes? I guess you don't know me, but to call the Triplex weird is absolutely heresy. The Italian blood is boiling a little right now. The triplex was my favorite train. I absolutely loved riding the TP #4 Sea Beach when I was a kid. I not only carry it as my handle but a Triplex 6116 proudly sits on my desktop in school. When I saw some photos of B's on the Sea Beach taken in January, 1963, I nearly fell over my chair. I hated those damn standards. To see them on my train was more than I could take. Theat's when I think the Sea Beach started to make a tumble from its favored status of the 40's and 50's.
I was referring to the TA's attitude to the Triplexes, not mine.
Well then ok, Joe V. You're forgiven. What is your favorite train. Are you a nut for some line like I am?
I am a BMT chauvinist, but I don't remember the Triplexes. I have nothing against the Standards (I disliked the noisy, ugly R1-9), but I grew up with R16 & R27/30. The latter is my favorite. I consider R16 - R32 to be BMT, and R10 and R38-R42 to be IND becuase that was their original assignments
The R-42 was sort of a hybrid, since I remember it showing up on the N train as well as on the D, and a few "rouge" trains popped up on the Eastern Division and the BMT Broadway local as well (I thought of the EE as a BMT line and the KK as IND even though the former's letters fit in with the Queens Blvd. line and the latters with the other Broadway-Bklyn. trains)
Those are exactly my sentiments, too, except for the R42s, which I remember mainly from BMT routes B D N QB QJ RR. The R27/30s I remember mostly from the QT and RR, screeching through downtown Brooklyn and lower Manhattan. I started too late to have seen the Triplexes. Only rode a Standard once, on the Canarsie line. I thought it kind of quaint. On the other hand, the R1/9s were absolutely the ugliest, smokiest, most filthy-of-steel-dust trains ever. They should have kept them on the Queens Blvd. line, actually they did stay on the F until at least 1976, very near to the end or to the end of their revenue service. Those trains spent most of their lives underground, rightfully so. They were so ugly they never should never have been allowed to have surfaced. If it had been up to me, they would have been only on the (then) CC, E, RR, 24/7.
>>> Those trains [R-1/9] spent most of their lives underground, rightfully so. They were so ugly they never should never have been allowed to have surfaced. <<<
Although I would certainly take exception to the thought that these cars were ugly, since they were purchased for the IND it was not expected that they would see the light of day very often since only a minuscule amount of the IND track was above ground.
Tom
I view the R1-9 as strictly utilitarian, not unlike the orginal Glasgow tube cars. They only painted them on one side as the other side was never seen by the public.
Agreed..they weren't ugly in my book..good classic RR styling of the 1920's even if a throwback for the years they were built. Thanx Tom!
OTOH I often wondered that they were indeed so smoky and dirty. I don't remember any of the other old equipment making so much brake smoke or dust as the beloved R1-9 did, even if I loved them! I can agree to faults but they were still one d---good piece of railcar.
Gentlemen, the IND had NO car washing equipment in the early years, that is why the cars were dirty and grimy. A short elevated span and operation to the World's Fair in 1939 - 1940 were the only times these cars saw wet weather. This is also why the gold lettering "CITY OF NEW YORK" was not revealed until car washing equipment came to the IND, and that was MANY years after 1932.
Heh. Well, they did get a wee bit wet every now and then on the climb up and down to Smith-9th over the years ... but yeah, largely they were cave dwellers. :)
Don't forget 4th Avenue. Those were the only two stops on the whole IND line that in the fresh air. I know things changed somewhat after I moved away in 1954, but it does seem incredible that of the seven or eight lines that made up the IND, there were only two outside stops. That's very weird.
I think the history of the IND as posted on this web site implies that the City wanted to have no outdoor stations for the IND, but either engineering or financial considerations at the Gowanus Canal site forced Smith/9th to be outdoors. Probably the grade downward kept 4th Av outdoors as well.
The BMT used a lot of the old Els and RR ROWs for its lines, which is probably why it's such a railfan favorite. I'm guessing the IRT in the Bronx has a similar history. The original 1904 line only has 125 St outdoors, again, probably due to geographic, engineering and financial factors.
Outdoor lines are much more interesting when riding them, but on the street below they are believed to cause havoc. I remember my mother driving me and my friends to school under McDonald Av, weaving in and out of the poles (anchored in the roadway) and over the SBK tracks. We usually arrived shell shocked.
Those tracks are still there (under McDonald Av.), you just don't have to dodge freight trains anymore.
Mr t__:^)
Actually....The original "1904" IRT (known as "Contract One") had many more outdoor stations; The present-day #1 Train from Dyckman Street to 242nd Street, and the present-day #2 train along Westchester Avenue/Southern Boulevard in the Bronx is part of Contract One. It's just that these sections weren't ready on opening day in 1904.
None of the elevated portions of the IRT in the Bronx were part of an earlier elevated system. While the Contract One subway was being built, the IRT purchased all of the Manhattan els, which included the Bronx portion of the Second/Third Avenue el. The IRT then made provisions to link the existing elevated line up with the new construction (at 149th Street). Similarly, when the Contract Three (Dual Contracts) lines were being constructed, the IRT built new links to hook existing els into it; specifically, the Second/third Avenue el connection at Gun Hill Road (White Plains Road Line) and the 9th Avenue El connection with the Jerome Avenue line.
The Dyre Line, of Course, was opened in the 1940s, utilizing the ROW of an abandoned commuter railroad (The NYW &B).
The 3rd. Ave. el was also extended along Webster Ave. to meet the IRT "subway" line at Gun Hill Rd. This section was built to subway specs and could support heavy subway cars.
Thanks for the info. Any history on the Livonia Av branch in Brooklyn?
The Livonia Branch (the New Lots Line) is simply part of the Contract 3 (Dual Contracts) Subway.
When The City of New York built the subways, it negotiated a series of complicated financial arrangements with the private companies that would be operating the lines. For the most part, the city paid for the underground infrastructure, while the private companies paid for the rolling stock and the elevated portions.
The situation with the BMT, of course, was much more complicated. The then-BRT owned a massive elevated system in Brooklyn when the Dual Contracts were signed. Many of the BRT elevated and surface lines were upgraded or rebuilt to handle the heavyweight, 67-foot BRT Standard cars. This included the West End, Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton, Canarsie, Broadway/Jamaica, Broadway/Myrtle, and small portions of the Fulton Street El. If you study the track maps of these lines, you will see evidence that the BRT wanted to upgrade the rest of the els to Dual Contract standards and integrate them into the newly-built subways; they probably would have if not for the election of Mayor John Hylan, a one-time BRT employee who had an almost obsessive hatred for the private operating companies and who was instrumental in pushing the city to build an "independent" subway system.
Agreed.(the history on the Livonia el.) But one big burning question that this thread has brought back to memory.
The first time I rode out to New Lots as a young boy I thought "this looks more like the BMT els", (Jamaica, Liberty Ave, etc) and it does. OTOH the West End looks typically IRT (White Plains, Jerome, Pelham).
Anybody know the reason? Contractor or achitect for that area?
>>>I thought "this looks more like the BMT els", ...<<<
What did a BMT el "look" like? Were they the ones with the support iron on the sidewalk rather than the in the middle of the street?
Never saw many BMT els growing up in The Bronx and all.
Peace,
ANDEE
I you want to see what BMT els looked like, I'd suggest looking at the F line from Ave. X to the curve at W8th. The lattice steelwork and lack of middle track is very prominent here. A short section of Myrtle Ave. still exists to show you as well.
The southern portion of BMT Culver el, while the stringer steelwork was in lattice form, was nonetheless built to Heavy Duty Standards of the Metropolitian Rwy. Co. (BRT/BMT). Legend has it at the time of el construction (1918-1919), steel was in short supply, and this is why this section of el was latticed. The columns, however, remained built up I-beams.
It was designed to support the heaviest equipment of the time (Standards/Triplexs), in addition to the dead weight of the structure itself, ties, rails, signals, cables, catwalks, wind pressure, the force of 500' trains stopping and starting, etc.
I do not know the gross weight of each car or unit, but I know all steel equipment outweighs the lighter aluminum equipment of today. If these structures handles Standards and Triplexes for all those years, the lighter weight equipment of today is no problem for these els, even if some are approaching 85 years of age.
W 8th St is one place that REALLY feel the el structure shaking with any regularity..just LOVE to have non-fans feel it, and get all nervous!
I passw w 8 st many times and don't feel it. The first time I felt it was when the D train (r68) stay at w 8st waiting for a D train to leave stillwell ave. The other non rail fans had a worried look on there faces. It shake when a D train or a F train stops att w 8st.
I passw w 8 st many times and don't feel it. The first time I felt it was when the D train (r68) stay at w 8st waiting for a D train to leave stillwell ave. The other non rail fans had a worried look on there faces. It shake when a D train or a F train stops att w 8st.
The same could have been said for Gun Hill Road on the IRT from 1973 and before (Dual Level El Structure).
For sheer shaking pleasure, try Crescent St.
Does Crescent St still shake?
I knew that the old station shook, but it was supposedly renovated twenty years ago.
Will answer two posts here. For Lou from Middletown NY: have you ever been at Crescent St. on the J, or Norwood etc. when a train stopped at a previous station? It felt like the whole structure was going to sway to a collapse. Wasn't bad enough to see it but when a train stopped at Norwood the waiting room doors at Crescent would slam partly open and shut a couple of times. When the train was a SMEE anyway, as a lot of M/M made hard stops with them. I wonder if they have ever alleviated that problem? [as a motorman I used to fan the brake valve to stop an R27 let's say so it wouldn't stop hard.]
As for car weights and the old structures the standards weighed in at some 95,000 lbs; the D types I think at 211,000 lbs per unit. The 75 foot cars, at least the R44's do, IIRC weighed in at some 86,000 lbs per car so aren't really that light. (of course I'd still rather have a standard or D type)
I believe the cars from R32 on are mostly stainless steel, not aluminum although some components may be on some cars. Like the rooves on the R38-40-42.
Don't forget that one Triplex at 106 tons was the equvalent of two BMT standards at 97-98 tons for both. The big difference was axle loading. That original 1885 structure where the J and Z run today could not support the 40,000 lb/axle weight of the Triplexes. The axle loading of the BMT standards was much less (don't have the exact number), and for this reason they could and did operate out to Jamaica.
Guess (for Chris too) I was thinking of the later elevateds..not the original ones. His post reminded me, mentioning Culver, I had thought...but that line has the pillars in the street not on the sidewalk. Most BMT els IIRC had them on the sidewalk.
What I meant was... look at the rooves of the stations.What I meant by the stations on the Livonia line looking more like the BMT els..instead of having rooves with a peak in the middle they slope straight up from the bulkhead side and rise toward where they end over the trackside edge of the platform. Culver also has these types of stations. Just an addenda but IIRC the Eastern div. WWI era stations had concrete platforms going way back. Looking over Elderts Lane station one day and again IIRC the station siding was originally metal, even when they had windows. Couldn't help but notice that those stations were virtually fireproof, neat thinking for the era they were built.
I've seen pictures in the "Cars of the BMT" book showing Jamaica Ave. el stations with open backs, like the stations along Broadway. It appears these stations had these open back for their entire lengths, or at least most of them.
Chris, If I remember correctly the stations on Jamaica Ave had several completely closed back sections at the middle of the each station. They duplicated those on Broadway.
If you could have seen all the station platforms in the 1940's, you would have been impressed with the uniformity of appearance, i.e. Gates Ave looked exactly like 111th St except for the station signs!
All of the side platform stations looked the same except for Marcy Ave which looked like something out of a bad dream.
Correct; about the middle the backs were closed and had windows in them.But much of the rest was open..of course with a fence. Personally I thought those stations were too institutional looking, as were similar ones on other lines but thats IMHO.
Marcy was kind of neat, probably the only original station left except for Alabama-Crescent; but then the Manhattan bound side was a lot newer, I believe built after fire destroyed the original.
I think the design of a BMT el depended on which one we're talking about. There are many pictures of the structures in a book I have entitled "The Brooklyn Elevated" (Greller & Watson). Some of them (5th Avenue, Broadway, etc.) had the columns rising from the street pavement and had plate girders on the sides. The Lexington el appeared to have beams that extended outward so that the columns could rise from the sidewalk. The most unique one was the Fulton el, which had a lattice-work truss instead of plate girder on its sides, and had horizontal trusses sticking out at a right angle that connected to the sidewalk-mounted columns.
The book has photos of the Dual Contracts reconstruction of the Broadway el. New sidewalk-mounted columns and plate-girder crossbeams were grafted on to the existing structure. Once these were installed, the original pavement-mounted support coulumns were removed.
You might also note the station architecture of one of the Bay Ridge line pictures was the same as Norwood, Crescent etc on the J. The BMT/BRT els were a hodgepodge to say the least but then it made the system (as with the subway routes) more interesting. Myrtle and Lex similar, but Lex had outside platforms as was most of the original Fulton [and as you note lattice girders on Fulton].
>>>...the IRT purchased all of the Manhattan els, ...<<<
I was always under the impression that they leased them.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, for 999 years in 1900. I hope the IRT didn't pay their rent in advance.
The reason that the BoT opted for a viaduct rather than a tunnel from Smith Street to 4th Avenue was because it was cheaper to bridge the Gowanus Canal than it was to tunnel underneath it.
I had already said a short elevated span. Re-read my post.
Big Ed, I loved seeing the R1/9s on the AA CC E, and too bad they weren't on the RR. I just hated seeing them on the southern division and eastern division lines. They should have been kept underground. Sorry, I know you liked them.
--Harry
Well Q, they certainly couldn't hold a candle to my Triplex. Those were elegant and macho looking cars. To me there was nothing like a TP Sea Beach or Brighton Express roaring down the station, especially on an open cut. To me there something majestic about those cars. I haven't seen anything since that compares with them At least not to me.
Well, Fred you know what that say about absence and memory ....
I had the privlidge of a ride on a D type last year thanks to one of my SubTalker friends (actually it was a couple of them). Our operator had a green board & a clear track, so he was able to rap the Controller around. The ride was very nice, but I'll have to say that it wasn't that much different then a fast set of Red Birds or a Slant 40 going under the East River. In addition my recent ride thru the 63rd Street connector and east on the express track in a R-32 E was very nice too.
I think I have a point here ... maybe it just that I'm glad that I finally got the opportunity to ride the D types, but even though they make my top ten, they aren't number one in my book. Maybe it comes with the territory when you become a trolley operator, i.e. speed isn't eveything ... I do like to blow the whistle on 775 at Branford even though we're not supose to, NIMBY reason. (775 is a bright yellow big old wooden Interurban ... hand operated doors, streight air brakes, i.e. before the dead man feature)
Mr t__:^)
Nice post Thurston. I guess it is different strokes for different follks. From my vantage point I was comparing the D's to the B's and Low V's and the R 1-9's, and to me, at least, the Triplexes were far and away the best of the bunch. I guess we all have our favorites and I was pleased that at least you had some that stood out well for you. It bugs me when someone says they're all the same to them. I don't believe that for a minute. We all have our favorites, or should, if we are truly rail fans of the subway.
[... From my vantage point I was comparing the D's to the B's and Low V's and the R 1-9's, ...]
Maybe that ALSO is what happens to you when you join a museum. As a youngstr in NYC I arrived after the Lo-Vs, Hi-Vs & Gate cars. So All I rode of the old fleet was the Standards and R1-9s. Now I have the good fortune to operate them all and have gotten to appreciate them for their differences. In addition you don't put in 100 hours on the trolleys because you hate them. Dressed the way they want us to look it's kind of makes you feel like you stepped onto a time machine.
Maybe the next time the Museum brings out the D types you'll be able to come along for the ride, but I'm hoping they bring out the standards soon ... or as they say viva la difference.
Mr t__:^)
Good job Thurston. Too bad you didn't get to know how they felt highballing down the main lines back when! I did put my share of time in on the R1-9, some standards. Wish I had the chance to run the High-v's, Low-v's, and Manhattan el on a regular basis at least for a while.
But what's there now is still railroadin' and fun to those who enjoy it now. Glad you've had a taste of the early days.
I think it's important for those of us here who have a lot of passionate feeling about these old & newer cars to do what they can to see to it that future generations can get, at least a little feeling for what it was like back then. You've written a book that has provided me a lot of detail that I didn't know, others join a museum, enjoy their newsletters, and maybe just send money because they can't come there & get dirty, me I'm close enough to be able to go there & get a lot of personal satisfaction with the work I do. Just a couple of weeks ago Lou from Brooklyn, Stef & I repaired one of the barn doors that someone had cut off, but didn't return to finish (we're in the final stages of raising all the barn tracks so we don't have to drag all cars up to the hill every time there is one of those Freshit/storm tides). Meanwhile a couple of other SubTalkers were trying to figure out how to re-install a 2nd Controller on our Crane. Since it's has been missing for a while it was more of a engineering challenge then our carpentry job (ever use a circular saw as a plane, it worked but we need a new blade now).
Mr t__:^)
Another vote for the Triplex -- that WAS a subway car!
ALL RIGHT New Haven John!!!!! I think our posts might bring out all the old Triplex fans who remember fondly what a magnificent train that was. I have a D-type 6116 Sea Beach as my desktop and I marvel every time I see it.
>>>I had the privlidge of a ride on a D type last year thanks to one of my SubTalker friends (actually it was a couple of them). <<<
Speaking as one of those people, YOU are quite welcome, anytime, I was glad to be able to assist you in finally being able to ride a D type.
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually, when given a fresh silver/blue paintjob, the R7/R9's running on the eastern division were quite attractive. Until the grafitti vandals found them....
Well, a group of R-1s did run on the 4th Ave. local once all of the R-10s had been delivered. They were loaned to the BMT in an effort to ease the steel car shortage on that division.
Simple: they were never cleaned.
"....since they were purchased for the IND..." See, Tom, the IND had no room for aesthetics. Just utilitarian. At best plain, to my taste, ugly, unimaginative, never seeing the light of day, smoky, and filthy. The only lengthy outdoor stretch of IND track, the World's Fair connection, was torn up. So typical.
I always wondered what happened to the outdoor stretch of the IND's World's Fair trackage. Why the hell did they tear it up. What a cruddy system it was. I never liked the IND. Come to think of it, I wasn't such an IRT man either. The BMT? Well that was the Big Cahoona to me. What a system.
The outdoor IND World's Fair Trackage. What else? Became a highway..part of the Van Wyck expy. as I've read.
Ha! is that so? Just what New York needed. A highway of conjested traffic. We have that out here and it is a bummer. Public transportation is so much better. That was a bad decision of the IND's part, I think. Stupid might be a better word for it.
You can thank one Robert Moses for the Van Wyck Expressway extension. It was put in to make sure the subway spur could not be rebuilt. When that spur was first built, stations were considered along the way and had they been included, there is speculation that the spur would have been kept permanently. Ultimately, it was built as a nonstop ride to the World's Fair.
OTOH, the IND has some of the best express runs in the entire system (with all due respect to the nonstop Sea Beach run). I didn't become a fan of the A train by accident.:-)
Well wait a minute here .... where did they PARK all those INDs ... outside, that's right at Jamaica & Coney Island & in de Bronx & Manahattan too.
Mr t__:^)
Well, they were parked outside in the many IND yards in Queens, Upper Manhattan and the Bronx. But rainwater isn't much of an effective cleaner. You need soap. I doubt a good rainstorm did anything to clean these filthy cars.
I remember during the Spring of 1968, commuting to elementary school between Woodhaven Blvd and 121 Street, and the Broadway-Bklyn locals were slowly being converted from Standards to R-9's. In the AM, some would operate in revenue service toward Jamaica. The R-9's still smelled of enamel from the fresh, clean Gray and Blue paint, A N D I S T I L L D I D N ' T L I K E T H E M !!.
Well, I am too young to have remembered riding them, so I can't say how good or bad they were. However, I'd have loved to ride them at least once to judge for myself .
I wish you had... I was glad to see them find a new home at least for a few more years knowing their days on the big-time subway routes were ending. And it was nice having them on an el instead of all-subway. Kind of a throwback to what had been on the Bronx els a few years earlier even if they weren't the old IRT.
But the BMT eastern didn't let them show their potential very well, I don't think the line voltage was as high as the IND or IRT at least in those days. At least it felt that way. I was glad to have them on the eastern but to ride an R1-9 at its best was on the IND express runs. Then you could watch them fly.
Considering the fact that they'd only be seen in dim incandescent bulb lit stations by the riding masses, exterior asthetics probably counted for little.
If you want UGLY, your "C" types rebuilt from the steam days are sure as hell more horrible to look at than an R1 MU.
C types aka "ugly ducklings" Mechanically a good piece of equipment. Only the trailer [center] cars were from steam days; the motors having been built as motors in 1907 [1400's]. Even as a lover of old equipment and the first-third-of the century styling I was taken when I saw those C's, but they were otherwise OK. A forerunner to BMT's perfection of the remodel art which came with the Q's in 1938, built out of the same original cars..1400's and 1200's.
Glad I had a chance to see and ride the C type if nothing else.More rail history to live in memory.
I was the opposite. I loved the R-1/9s with their cacaphony of marvelous sounds, but disliked the BMT standards. The former had signs up front and four sets of doors per side while the latter had no signs up front and three sets of doors. Those were the only classes of prewar equipment I rode on. The IRT oldtimers were for the most part gone by the time we arrived on the New York scene in 1967, and I didn't see any Triplexes during our visit in July of 1965.
You could look at it as a homecoming of sorts for the BMT standards. Coming full curcle, as it were. After all, they made their debut on that line in 1915. I understand your feeling, though. What really gets my goat is the fact that the TA sent the Triplexes to slaughter when they were still running beautifully just because they were "nonstandard" rolling stock. Give me a break.
When I was training as a M/M in 1967 one of the old timers told me they took the D types off the Sea Beach and put them on the West End tunnel rout to get them off the Manhattan Bridge because of their weight. But then OTOH the Brighton-Bridge still used them at that time; maybe a partial reduction of D types on the bridge was a plus for some engineers. But that was the story I heard.
The post on the lattice structure on Culver sounds accurate; I heard the story many years ago. But notice that they are X Braces in the lattice work whereas the Fulton had Y braces; did they add more pieces in to strengthen them? Or was there a section of Fulton that once had X braces, like the 3rd Ave. el.
There is a photo of Triplex 6017 at DeKalb dated 12/31/64 on the bridge track signed as a West End express bound for Astoria. It would seem to me that some of them were still operating via bridge even then. The bridge was probably thinking, "Oh, my aching deck!"
Steve: I have always been curious to ask you what it is about the "A" Train that so fascinates you? I know it's your favorite but I still don't know why. Is it the part that now goes to Rockaway, the elevated portion that didn't exist when I was a kid, (It then terminated at Euclid) Clue me in. There has to be a reason for your staunch enthusiasm for the A train. I loved the Sea Beach because of all its mini tunnels andthe way the Triplex would swoosh through them. It gave me a big high. I also loved going over the Manny B, and the trip to Coney Island. Get back to me on that will you?
I don't know what motivates Steve, but when I was a kid living on the IND Culver line and had to switch many times at Jay St to go somewhere, the gray/blue cars with the red stripe (you guys are up on the designations) seemed to go faster and even make a louder, more "hi-tech" (such a term didn't exist then) kind of noise. The fact that it didn't stop at Spring or 23 St (so this is what an express is!) added to its glamor.
Well, the fact that the A strutted its stuff along CPW certainly contributed to it. Whoever made the call to put the R-10s on the A in the first place should be knighted, if not canonized.:-) Those cars were tailor-made for the A.
Also, at Jay St, the D (later the F) would always wait for the A, particularly in non-rush hours, in either direction. Hail to the King!
The main reason I was initially drawn to the A was because it skipped 23rd St. while the E did not, even though the side route signs on the R-1/9s proclaimed "E/8th Ave. Express". Some express, I thought. That was why I absolutely, positively insisted on taking an A train from 42nd to 14th during our weekly Saturday commute to Brooklyn. It all started on Sept. 23, 1967. We boarded an E, not knowing any better, and when I saw it was stopping at 23rd St., I felt utterly betrayed. That afternoon, after a ride across the Williamsburg Bridge on a #15 train of R-16s and after winding up on the wrong level at W. 4th St., we were directed to the upper level. As our A train pulled in, I vivdly remember saying "Let's hear it for the A train!". For some reason, I recall seeing its doors open to the left, which would mean it was on the local track, but it wasn't. We crawled past 23rd St., and when I saw the I-beams on either side of our train, it was at that precise moment that my allegiance to the A was forever forged. There was more to come, including numerous joyrides up CPW on my beloved Thunderbirds, the R-10s. Sheer bliss.
To this day, I can still count on one hand the number of times I've ever taken a local between 42nd and 14th Sts., and I still refuse to take an E south of 42nd St.
An interesting side note was my taking a liking to the express run along Broadway on - you guessed it - the N. A few weeks after my experience on the A, my mother mentioned going to Herald Square while we were in Saturday school. She and one of the other parents went into Manhattan on the Canarsie, then transferred to the Broadway line at Union Square. They took an N going uptown, and got a (pre-Chrystie St.) QB the other way. We went that way that same afternoon; heck, I was glad to get off those BMT standards ASAP. At Union Square, the train just emptied out. I mean, people were pouring out. We got to the uptown platform of the Broadway line just as a T train was leaving. An N train pulled in a few minutes later, and those R-32s made the express run look easy. We zipped past 23rd and 28th Sts. It felt so good to be on a BMT train with letter markings up front. On one or two occasions, we got a train of R-27/30s, and I can vaguely remember their original side route signs with "N/Broadway-Sea Beach Express". Then one day that winter, we transferred only to find the express tracks had trains stored on them. I blew a gasket right then and there. My mother herded us onto the first train to arrive, an RR. That just about ruined my whole day.
So you see, the N ranks right up there among my all-time favorites. And I'm with you - I'd love to see it run express along Broadway again.
Can understand your feelings about all these matters..the A N/B wasn't much until CPW, what with timers around 23 st. The Sea Beach, yes, lots of good express running. But then this old man still says you'd feel different if you were just 10 years older.
Like riding a D type on the Sea Beach express [even the standards were nice, Fred!--but admittedly the D type was tops there]or the R1-9 on the 8th Ave. express or CPW. Just my humble opinion of course.
Then the High-V's and Low-V's on the West Side or Lex expresses!
Trust me..you'd have loved it all as I knew it. Best wishes..the dinosaur.
Hey Guys:
While I've said in the past that my 2 BMT favorites were the ABs and the D-types (they went together like peanut butter and jelly ), there were small differences that made me lean ever so slightly to the ABs (sorry Fred!).
1. the door controls for the ABs were located between the middle set of doors,(not very practical for the conductor in the rush hours)enabling me to watch the conductor in action.
2. the seating arrangement in the ABs was slightly more spacious than the D-types, you almost felt that you were in a living room.
Comments Welcome, just don't throw any fruit, vegetables, or eggs at me!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
I used to ride the A-B's when I was a kid...but I always was in the front of the train, so my memory is a bit fuzzy: were the doors in all A-B's ("Standards") controlled by that center door console, or were some trains' door controls added to the cabs?
"Were the doors in all A-B's ("Standards") controlled by that center door console, or were some trains' door controls added to the cabs? "
The door controls for the A/B's were by the center doors where the Conductors would mingle with the rush hour crowds. the D-Types on the other hand were on the end of the cars like the R-10,11,12,14's where the conductors would expierece the great outdoors.
Bill "Newkirk"
Heh. Nice way of putting it ... nothing like icy toe-holds to wake you up in the morning in this kinda weather.
To all current TA employees, tongue firmly in cheek, but doing the door shuffle inside a relatively cozy cab is just downright WIMPY! Heh. Some of us in years past had to sing for our supper (and our handles when motorman positions opened up) ...
Call it Alzheimer's or whatever, but I simply cannot ever remember seeing the conductor at a door console on the BMT standards, and I rode on them every Saturday during the last two years of their careers. The only plausible explanation is I was never in the second or fifth cars where the conductor would be.
Very likely. Besides only the center cars of the B sets had door controls, but then what singles A cars were around all had door controls. When they created the BT 2 car pairs after scrapping the trailers these had no door control at all.
Besides only the center cars of the B sets had door controls,
Ed, Didn't every BMT Standard have door control panels? I realize that many of them were probably inoperable or deactivated, but I thought that every car had the panel of buttons. In the case of the three car B or BX sets I seem to recall that the button panels on the cars at either end were there but actually painted over. I think that the only operable button panels on those three car sets were in the middle car! I could almost swear that the 4000 series trailers had operating door panels because they would have been the middle car between two 2400 series cars!
As of at least 1957, the BMT standard was operated with the only operative door position in the middle car of a three car set. I don't recall any reason for this. Could this have been when the cars were "renovated" at the Coney Island Yard and the interior painted a sickly green?
The control panel for the doors could close the front doors, the rear doors, and the doors at the operator's position separately. I seem to recall that there were also controls to open the end doors -- did they every work?
The BMT always had their door operator positioned in the middle car of a three car train, and in the fifth car of a six car train. I don't remember what they did when they added a seventh or eighth car for rush hour. I suppose that the conductor would remain in his position in the fifth car of the original six car set. They might have added another conductor for the added cars.
This is not that impossible since they did use five gatemen on a six car gate train.
The door controls were indeed in place; IIRC the buttons were there and painted over, obviously long deactivated. I don't know if any "guts " were removed for spare parts or not.
The end doors did indeed work from those buttons. I railfanned the Franklin shuttle on them one day as a teen as BS'ing with the crew wound upgoing onto the relay move as they did at Prospect Park then. The conductor opened the end doors so we could go thru Or for the M/M. What kept the end-of-train doors from opening...I don't know. Maybe they did in emergencies.Which was theoretically what the end doors were opened for.
As long as there were 10 car trains on the IRT there were conductor and rear guard until at least 1963. I can't rmember when the rear man was taken off, maybe when the last Low-V's were gone. But nine car trains didn't have the rear man. So whether the BMT had 2 trainmen on an 8 car standard [full length train for them] I can't recall. There were no drumswitches to set up door control zones on them so don't know how 2 operating stations would work. You'd use the key to activate the console and then the whole train worked. OK, if you had no DOOR jumper between sets (the only jumper cable on them) then you'd need two operators, but except on the single A cars no jumpers were added or removed when making up trains. The B and BX sets remained in place between cars..of course, then again if you made up 2 sets of B's you'd have to add door jumpers. {added when the cars were made MUDC}
The 4000 trailers. As they were the middle car of the BX sets they were the only ones in them that had working door controls. When they were scrapped and the BT 2 car sets were created neither car of the BT had a door control.
Thanks Ed, You're one of the few people on this site that would be able to verify some of those memories of mine!
The original BMT Standards were not designed for MUDC. They had a conductor in every car. The WWI inflation put an end to that practice and the Standards were retrofitted in the early 1920's.
Hey guys and gals,
Here's another tidbit: My grandparents used to live in Bath Beach and had lockers during the summer in Brighton and Washington Baths. So we would board a West End AB and take it to Stillwell, then transfer to the Brighton line (R27s) and get off at Brighton Beach.
In those days the West End and Sea Beach shared a 2 track bridge over Coney Island Creek, so there was always a delay waiting for a train to clear ahead of you. One tome I remember looking out the storm door at the head of an AB West End waitng for a Sea Beach to clear when lo and behold the storm door made a whooshing sound and opened! Needless to say the motorman quickly opened up the cab to make sure I hadn't fallen off the train and my Grandmother jumped up out of the seat and grabbed me back!
Always the motorman on the West End and Sea Beach trains would blow their whistles to alert the tower they were waitng for the line up and signal. This too, was done by the Brighton Express D-types waitng to come into Brighton Beach.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Sounds as if the power feature on that storm door was still functional. I remember on one or two occasions when a 2x6 was wedged diagonally across a BMT standard storm door to keep it from opening.
The Lo-V at Branford still does pritty good. The Hi-V needs a little more work so we take it easy on her.
Mr t__:^)
So that's it - a timer at 23rd St. northbound. No wonder those A trains have crept past that station for as long as I can remember. The funniest part is, the R-10s went slower than any other cars, and that includes the R-44s. There were times when the R-10s would be going so slow I could make out each individual I-beam. It felt as though you were watching a referee step off a 15-yard penalty in a football game. The R-1/9s OTOH would be groaning away at about F# below middle C, about 15 mph or so but definitely faster than what the R-10s would do. Recently, A trains have held 25 mph while skipping 23rd northbound. Stop the presses!
I'm just as fond of the R-1/9s as I am of the R-10s. It's just that I didn't ride on the oldtimers often enough.
Heh. One of the subtleties of those R1/9'ers vs the R10's was that for some reason the R10's seemed to have a lower gearing in series/series (notch 1) than the R1/9's ... you only had three speeds on those puppies ... there was a bit more pep on the R1/9's over the R10's in series/parallel also. If the "A" was running at 1 point, it'd be a bit slow. I *do* remember that. But wrap'em and they could both wail though I had repeatedly seen the R1/9's kick a$$ when wide open.
But the lower speeds on the R10's were noticeably flat ...
During the Nostalgia Train ride over the Manhattan Bridge a few years ago, there was no other train on the structure as we crossed. Normally I would have expected to pass at least one. Coincidence?
--Mark
I think they issued an all points bulletin: The Triplexes are coming! The Triplexes are coming!:-)
Had there been any other trains on the bridge at the same time, we would have been reading about a "Bridge Disaster in New York".
Yes sir, when the Triplexes come everybody get the hell out of the way. What magnificent specimans they were. I'm still awed when I look at my desktop and see the 6116 Triplex #4 Sea Beach crunching into the 8th Street Station. Wow!!!
I like to think of the Triplexes as gentle behemoths. They didn't pick fights with other cars the way the BMT standards seemed to do - except for that skirmish between 6045 and 6078 in 1955.
This is my plan for the car assignment later this year or in 2002 once more R142/142A Debut:
#1 line: R62A
#2 line: R142/with some R33
#3 line: R62A
#4 line: R62/R33
#5 line: R26/28/29 those R29 on the #6 will return to the #5 line their all R26/28/29 will retire.
#6 line: R62A/R142A some
#7 line: R33S,R33ML/R36,R36ML
#9 line: R62A
What do you think out this plan guys?
The 7 should be getting some of the 6s old R-62s. Also, the 5 will probably be getting some too. I don't think there should be any lines with all redbirds once this R142/A delivery is made.
I thought the 2 and the 5 lines would get the R-142's, the 7 line would get the R-62's and of course the 6 line would get the R-142A's.My line the Dyre Avenue line the redbirds there are rusting to no end, the numbers are literally rotting away, meanwhile on the 2 line, some of the R-33's are in good shape and some are beginning to rust out also.But this is a moot point until the R-142, and R-142A's are up and running, as far as I see they seems to be more R-142's at Unionport, but there is a larger order of R-142's than R-142A's.How does the ill fated R-110A fit into the equation, might as well put it in service as possibly the OPTO train overnights on the Dyre Avenue shuttle.
Now that the 63 Street Tunnel has been connected to Queens Boulevard
1) What will happen to the Q? It seems that it will run on Broadway but to where Northbound?
2) Would it be better if the "V" ran to Church Avenue (or even Kings Highway?) rather than 2 Avenue & Houston Street, But only on weekdays (Would it be better if the "F" ran express through Brooklyn... On direction between Kings Highway & Church Avenue, then express in both directions between Church Avenue & Bergen Street
3) A "W" Train? Where will that run? Broadway? and to/from where?
4) If their going to close the Manhattan Bridge on the North Side (6 Avenue Side) what will happen to the B and the D. Broadway again?
5) If & When the "Q" Broadway service begins, will it use the Montague Street Tunnel or the Manhattan Bridge?
6) When the "Q" runs back to Broadway, Will the "N" and the "Q" run Express along Broadway, while the "R" runs local?
7) Third Tracks: For the "J" and the "Z" does anyone think that the "Z" should run express between Eastern Parkway and Canal Street while the "J" just runs express after Myrtle Avenue during weekdays?
Still hoping for a Culver Express...
Killfile!!! Ahhh!!!
OK- here we go:
1) The Q is slated to run to 57/7 on the Bway line exp. In my opinion, as I have said so many times, that terminal ruins a good line which can be used in Astoria as well as to ease the flow on Queens Blvd and can handle it better than the V as it actually goes somewhere!
2) Because of lack of cars, the TA does not want to run the V to Church Ave and also in Queens it could run to 179th to provide F/V local/exp Hillside service, but the TA still claims lack of cars. When the R-143s come in, we don't know where they're going, but let's hope they help!
3) Because the Manny B will be switched from the 6th Ave-Brighton/4th Ave tracks to the Broadway-Brighton/4th Ave tracks, the B/D will not run any further south than 34th St Herald Square. Therefore, the W will run from 57/7? over the other side of the bridge to today's B line to Coney Island.
4) Partly answered in #3, the Brighton line will have two Qs to be told apart by circle Q, Brighton local, and Diamond rush hour Q, Brighton express. They will both go over the bridge and run exp to 57/7, boy, 57/7 will be busy won't it? Something has to go past there, either the Q or W, and whatever it is, it will prob. go to Astoria.
5) see #4
6) While the Q and W run exp, the N and R will run local.
7) I don't understand the question. Right now, the M runs Nassau St local whenever it gets past Myrtle, and the J/Z run exp between Myrtle and Marcy in the peak direction. Between Myrtle and ENY both trains run local {the J/Z.} But what I think should happen is the Z should run exp over the J in the peak between ENY and Myrtle, and the M should join it to have the M/Z run exp in peak, the J local. This would be good b/c then Jamaica gets a local, the J, and an express, the Z. Also, the tradition of the exp going farther than the local would be fulfilled as the M keeps going, and this won't change with the Manhattan Bridge, it will prob. run West End with the W when it comes. Hope this helps!
1) What will happen to the Q? It seems that it will run on Broadway but to where Northbound?
Until the manhattan bridge re-opens, both Q's will run to 57th St.
2) Would it be better if the "V" ran to Church Avenue (or even Kings Highway?) rather than 2 Avenue & Houston Street, But only on weekdays (Would it be better if the "F" ran express through Brooklyn... On direction between Kings Highway & Church Avenue, then express in both directions between Church Avenue & Bergen Street
Running the V to Church Ave. is the desired route. There are two problems, however. First is that there are no facilities at Church Avenue for crews & dispatchers. Second, the B division will not have enough cars to run the same level of service to Church Ave. for nearly 2 years.
3) A "W" Train? Where will that run? Broadway? and to/from where?
The W will replace the B train in brooklyn. The northern terminal will be Astoria.
4) If their going to close the Manhattan Bridge on the North Side (6 Avenue Side) what will happen to the B and the D. Broadway again?
There is no "IF". The B will run from either bedford Park or 145th St to 34th St/6th Ave. The D will run from 205th St to 34th St.
5) If & When the "Q" Broadway service begins, will it use the Montague Street Tunnel or the Manhattan Bridge?
The Q express and Q local will use the Manhattan bridge under the current plan. That, of course, is dependent onthe bridge being able to handle the planned 30 TPH.
6) When the "Q" runs back to Broadway, Will the "N" and the "Q" run Express along Broadway, while the "R" runs local?
The N will likely remain on the local track along B'way.
7) Third Tracks: For the "J" and the "Z" does anyone think that the "Z" should run express between Eastern Parkway and Canal Street while the "J" just runs express after Myrtle Avenue during weekdays?
?????????????????????
1) What will happen to the Q? It seems that it will run on Broadway but to where Northbound?
57th Street/Broadway
2) Would it be better if the "V" ran to Church Avenue (or even Kings Highway?) rather than 2 Avenue & Houston
Street, But only on weekdays (Would it be better if the "F" ran express through Brooklyn... On direction between
Kings Highway & Church Avenue, then express in both directions between Church Avenue & Bergen Street
You only have so many cars. You can't make it longer than it is going to be.
3) A "W" Train? Where will that run? Broadway? and to/from where?
The W is really the southern half of the B. It will start at Coney Island, go up the West End, express via 4th Avenue and the Bridge to Broadway, express via Broadway and will terminate at Astoria (rush hours), Queensboro Plaza (middays), and 57th (all times except nights). Nights, trains will run from Coney Island to 36th.
4) If their going to close the Manhattan Bridge on the North Side (6 Avenue Side) what will happen to the B and the D.
Broadway again?
Same as the 1987 reroutes except different designations
5) If & When the "Q" Broadway service begins, will it use the Montague Street Tunnel or the Manhattan Bridge?
Manny B
6) When the "Q" runs back to Broadway, Will the "N" and the "Q" run Express along Broadway, while the "R" runs local?
The W and both Qs will be express, N and R will be local
7) Third Tracks: For the "J" and the "Z" does anyone think that the "Z" should run express between Eastern Parkway and Canal
Street while the "J" just runs express after Myrtle Avenue during weekdays?
No opinion but that will add riders to the J
I had the displeasure of riding the train from Bowling Green up to 241st at rush hour last night (and back to Brooklyn later), to attend an extended family gathering in Yonkers. That is one long ride. It could be a little shorter.
During rush hours, why not run the #5 express as far as, say, Gun Hill Road or 238th, then all the way to 241st, while sending the #2 to the yard after Nerid? Yes, that would mean fewer trains at the terminal, but there are other advantages.
I was lucky enough to catch a #5 to 238th rather than Dyre. At E180th, it pulled in while a #2 was pulling out. It was then held, however, to allow a second #2 to go ahead of it. So I got on the #2.
The folks at 241st Street seemed unable to turn the 12+ rush hour trains fast enough. We sat between Nerid and 241st for 7+ minutes waiting for a train to pull out so we could pull in. A woman on the train said it happens every day. That's a long wait, after a long ride.
For those going all the way to 241st, having just the #5 to the terminal instead of the #2 might mean a ten minute wait for a train. But it would also eliminate the seven minute wait to get to 241st (because there are fewer trains to turn), and also shave a few minutes off by going express for a longer time.
You're assuming there's something structurally wrong. This happens at every terminal; it is most likely to occur on Fridays. You're lucky this wasn't a 3 day weekend or you would still be there. :-)
Well, possibly, it's for the same reason no train ever ran exp in the peak on the Culver line south of Kings Highway, because the third track goes into a yard. Why, when it ran, did they not run the West End exp in peak, down past Bay Parkway to skip 25th Ave and Bay 50th St. Why don't they run the #6 local all the way to Pelham Bay Park, the 6 Express could continue its express run. Why is there no #4 Exp in the Bronx in the peak? I think the answer is that the third track goes into a yard as it does on the 2/5 and to run revenue service on that third traack would be difficult with switching, though I see no reason the 5 can't run exp to Gun Hill Road. Also, if you ran the 5 Exp to 241st, you would have to make it stop at the #2s terminal which then would be 238th. Otherwise, people at 219, 225, 233, 238th are going to complain that 241 st is a 5 minute ride and they can't get to it. Making the 5 stop at 238th with the 2 ending there is like having the F express {whenever that comes back} stop at Smith/9 while the G is turning around there.
I think the answer is that the third track goes into a yard as it does on the 2/5 and to run revenue service on that third traack would be difficult with switching, though I see no reason the 5 can't run exp to Gun Hill Road. Also, if you ran the 5 Exp to 241st, you would have to make it stop at the #2s terminal which then would be 238th.
They did not have to do it 40 years ago for the Lex Ave Thru Express.
For the life of me I can't remember ever that the WP Road thru express ever ran express all the way to 241st. But there it is on that service table. I do remember when it ran express all the way to Gun Hill and wish it had remained that way. There was a ride! Especially with the Low-V's.
If they set up the signals properly they might be able to rub both the #2 and the #5 to 241st Street. Until a few years ago the #5 DID run to 241st Street. I think that they can run the #2 and an express #5 to 241st Street provided that they set up the sugnals properly.
BMTJeff
That must have really been a ride worthy of the name Thru Express. 4 stops in the Bronx! I know people that would clamor for the opportunity for fast service (presumably) like that to/from Manhattan, maybe even riding contraflow to meet the train at its express stops (if it was fast enough). It almost rivals the Metro North to the west on White Plains. Anyway, just wishful thinking I guess.
They also have cleaning crews at most of these terminals, so they want some time to do that irrespective of how many trains are waiting to come in. The crew that came in may not have a relief so you have to wait for a piss break for the orig crew ... just guessing, I don't realy know.
Mr t__:^)
Also I think that there are signal deficiencies that preclude the use of the express tracks north of 180th on a regular basis. Also there has to be a defined need (passenger volume) to warrant the service. It is a scenario I've thought about also. Maybe after signal modernization it's something the TA will consider.
(Also I think that there are signal deficiencies that preclude the use of the express tracks north of 180th on a regular basis. Also there has to be a defined need (passenger volume) to warrant the service. It is a scenario I've thought about also. Maybe after signal modernization it's something the TA will consider.)
The signals are new, part of a just-finished project (the old signal heads are still there). Perhaps now is the time.
Actually if I recall it was community pressure that caused the Thru Express to run local past E180. The Pelham Parkway area commuters were griping about it, but up until..I forgot...late 60's the Thru express did run exp. to Gun Hill. (Previous post). Luckyme, I made a tape recording of Low-V's on that line in 1963. Wish I had an exact date for the change but I don't...going on vague memory, and was working B division until 1970. then A div. off and on.
Yeah, but they are still working in the area between 238 and 241 on M Track. It seems that untill it is all complete, some signals in the area are still controlled by 239 Tower, while others are controlled by Unionport.
Does anybody have any idea what a "Signal Frequency Test" is? In the past month or so, I've been stuck in three of them. It seems to require all trains in a given area to stop and stay in a station while it occurs, adding about 5 minutes to the run time.
Any place in particular. Like around QBMT?
They've been doing it on the Canarsie line lately at night. I thought it had to do with the CBTC project. I've heard them refer to it as a "signal switchover". It lasts no more than five minutes. When they do the switchover, all trains on the line are required to get in a station and hold until the test is complete.
They've been doing it on the West End as well.
Maybe they are playing around with the communications devices that allow the master towers to "talk" to the wayside towers. --Just a thought.
Where did this occur and how did the signals behave during this
interval? Perhaps this was a cut-over from 25 to 60 cy signal voltage
Once at 23/7, once at Times Sq-IRT, most recently at 96/Bway; all on the midnights in an announced area from 103/Bway to 18 St/7 Ave (the entire area is controlled by Times Sq Mainline); all signals in sight remained green for the duration of the test.
Well, that rules out changeover of the signal supply mains.
Is there still a 25Hz system in use on the subway?
Absolutely, according to one of the senior Supt's in the power department, Con Ed produces it exclusively for the NYCT. However, they have given the NYCT a date for terminating 25 HZ service. I don't remember what that date is.
Wayne,
Did you notice on the number 2 end of 4264 that the 6 on the car number is an upside down 9?
Please make a note of it!!
Do you know of any other "mistakes" like that. I know at Shoreline the Staten Island Car 388 one of the 8's is backwards.
I heard that the Port Authority wants to use some of it money, approximately 14 billion, for a new capital program. Part of it consists of ordering neww PATH trains either to retire all of the older cars (except maybe the Kawasaki 800-series) or to add to the fleet of about 600 cars. Interesting, huh?
Feel free to reply.
-CWalNYC (8^)
It's to replce the 250 or so PA1,2,3 cars, not the 98 PA4
"It's to replce the 250 or so PA1,2,3 cars, not the 98 PA4"
The PA-4's are too new to replace anyway. The plans call for installation of AC propilsion to the PA-4's, which is what the PA-5's (?) are supposed to have.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, and another line item is a feasibility study for extending PATH from Newark Penn, (presumably utilizing the tail tracks pointing at Elizabeth), along the NEC to terminate at the Newark Airport rail station, which opens this year and offers monorail service to the airport.
I know the PATH reps during "PATHursdays" aren't allowed to give out any information, but a few months ago I asked one of them about PATH to Newark Airport.
He said there was no need for such a link because NJ Transit was extending the Newark subway. I complained about having to huff across Penn and transfer (to a bus or a lightrail+monorail is pretty much the same); he wasn't interested.
[Transit pipe dream: PA connects all of the region's airports with PATH. Then the reality about how FAR it is to JFK sets in.]
Assuming PATH and MBTA Blue Line cars are more or less built to the same specs, I wonder if both agencies could go with the same manufacturer and take advantage of economies of scale by having one large order of cars instead of two smaller orders. Or would that idea simply make way too much sense to be practical?
And while we're on the subject of PATH...
Just out of curiousity, what are some affordable yet half-decent neighborhoods within walking distance of PATH station? ("Affordable" meaning a studio apartment in the $550-650 range or a one-bedroom in the $750-850 range.) Those prices may seem incredibly cheap for the New York area but they're fairly typical for Chicago.
I plan on applying as a transfer student to the Illinois Institute of Technology next year, and while IIT is my first choice, I'm not putting all my eggs in one basket and will most likely also be applying to New Jersey Institute of Technology, Drexel in Philly, and possibly Pratt Institute and Cooper Union in NYC. In the meantime I'm trying to get as much information as possible so I can make at least a somewhat-informed decision and not end up in another housing crisis like I found myself in Boston last year.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Rents in Newark are dirt cheap (for good reason one of the worst cities in America) and you can be at WTC in 15mins. Anywhere in the city that you live there are buses that will connect you to Newark Penn, and there is 11 Subway Stations on the Newark Subway so if you live close to any than your commute would be quick. Alternatives would be Harrison, you could probably find an apartment here in the range you gave, just be ready to test you bi- or tri-lingualness out, the reason is that most of the population is working-class Spanish and Portuguese, another alternative is Bloomfield or Montclair (Bloomfield being the cheaper of the two) Bloomfield is about to have the Newark Subway extension finished and should within a year have midtown direct in both Bloomfield and Montclair.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Newark has gotten a lot better in recent years, and the city has very decent neighborhoods within reach of mass transit. I wouldn't write it off - they certainly are not one of the worst anymore.
I know that I have lived in Bloomfield all my life (a burb right next to newark) and there are nice neighborhoods, but there are also dead spots. Not being racist but in the case of Newark the Italians (by Bloomfield Ave Subway Station) and Portugues (In Ironbound short walk to Newark Penn) want to keep there neighborhoods nice and they look out for their neighbors, these are spots that I myself would live in.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
PS I know Newark's crime is down (lowest since before the riots) but it is still bad.
Ah, this is the area I really know well.
Yes, Harrison is a working class town with a vibrant Portuguese community (one of my friends is Portuguese and used to live in Harrison). The only thing is, aside from the Harrison PATH station, the transit is kinda sluggish, and unless you live near Ridge Road, the main drag, expect to walk quite a bit. The #39 bus is your link to downtown Newark. The #76 also goes downtown and the other way, to Hackensack. But it runs quite infrequently, especially on Sundays. The DeCamp #99 bus provides rush-hour only service to the Port Authority.
Bloomfield and Montclair are better served with buses, although they can also be a headache, esp. on weekends. Of the two, yes, Bloomfield is cheaper, but Montclair is much more charming. Bloomfield Center along Bloomfield Avenue has turned into one big discount outlet center, with a 99-cent store that replaced one of the last remaining F.W. Woolworths. And every other damn shop is a nail-and-hair salon! They're like a freaking cult, they're opening all over the place! There is one thing about Bloomfield that I find pretty cool - I remember reading posts here about the old-time candy stores/luncheonettes. Well one still survives in Bloomfield. It's called Holstens and is on Broad Street, near Watchung Ave. It's easy to get there from the city - DeCamp bus #33 runs along Broad St. and stops right in front of it.
But just up Bloomfield Avenue is Montclair Center, a HUGE improvement over Bloomfield Center. There are a lot of antique shops, along with other shops that harbor interesting items. A lot of nice restaurants, including several Indian places, a couple Mexican, a Middle Eastern one with bellydancing on certain nights, and several fast-food places like Blimpies, Subway, Burger King, etc.
Two other centers in Montclair center around two Boonton Line stations - Watchung Plaza near the Watchung Avenue station, and Upper Montclair center, near the Upper Montclair Center. Both of those can be reached with the #28 bus from downtown Newark and any point along Bloomfield Ave. Some more interesting shops and restaurants in those centers. Oh, and Upper Montclair has one of the only Greek restaurants around for miles! Of course, it is hidden in some back munincupal parking lot, boxed in with buildings on 4 sides, save for a narrow entrance/exit, I never knew existed until I happened upon it accidentally a couple months ago.
Montclair is well-served by transit. The Boonton Line stops at 5 stations in Montclair - Walnut St, Watchung Ave, Upper Montclair, Upper Mountain Ave, and Montclair Heights. Bus service to New York is available on Bloomfield Ave (DeCamp #33) and along Park Ave and Valley Road (DeCamp #66), with rush-hour service along Grove St on both the #33 and 66. Local NJ Transit buses #11, 28, and 29 all go to downtown Newark, and going west, the 11 goes to Willowbrook Mall, the 28 to Montclair State University with weekend service continuing to Willowbrook, and the 29 goes to West Caldwell with limited weekday service continuing to the Parsippany-Troy Hills area.
Other buses are the #34, which [eventually] gets downtown, but not before traveling through some ravaged areas of East Orange and Newark, and the #97, which is pretty useless, considering it just about duplicates the 34.
In Bloomfield, the 11, 27, 28, 29, 34 and 72 all go downtown. 11, 28, and 29 on Bloomfield Ave. The 72 joins Bloomfield Ave in Bloomfield Center. The other way, it goes on Broad St to Paterson. The 27 gets downtown via Franklin St (passes near the subway), Heller Parkway, and Mt. Prospect Ave, in the Forest Hill section of Newark - also a nice area. The 34 again, eventually gets downtown, but I would not recommend it.
The 92 is a crosstown, meaning it doesn't travel in an easterly-westerly direction into and out of downtown, but north-south. It serves the Franklin Ave subway station and travels to South Orange train station. It crosses Bloomfield Ave, but doesn't stop on it.
New York buses include the DeCamp #33, 44 and 88. The 33 runs on Broad St. On weekdays, the 88 shares Broad St with the 33. On weekends, the 44 and 88 are combined and run along the #27 bus route.
HELL YEAH JERSEY DEVIL! Now I don't feel like the only Jerzee boy. Where you located cause you know essex as good as I do?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Okay, okay, I tried to keep it a secret, but,
I LIVE IN BLOOMFIELD!
"Bloomfield a great place to live, work, and own a business" I love Bloomfield, email me privately so we can talk.
Thanks
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
The PA3 cars will go before the PA1 and 2. They are Hawker-Siddeley cars, albeit newer, but structurally are *hit. A hard couple causes the doors to malfunction. They would really like them scrapped now, but the Newark Line would have to go to 7 cars.
The MBTA Blue Line cars are longer. I don't know if they are the same width. Also, the PA5 is supposed to get a collapsible full-width cab for OPTO. Their design will be based more on an R142 than a PA4.
They need not have FRA buffer standrads any more.
Damned aerospace companies; just don't know how to build railcars, do they?
The other replies to this message cover Harrison and Newark.
You might be able to find something near Journal Square in that range althought that neighborhood doesn't have the best reputation. It hasn't exactly experienced the gentrification that other areas of Jersey City have.
Hoboken, near Exchange Place and Newport Pavonia are about tripple what you've listed. Near Grove and downtown Jersey City is probably about twice. 4 years ago I saw one Studio for $650 / month a 30 minute walk west from Newport/Pavonia near Hamilton Park. I ran screaming from it: 6.5 ft high drop ceiling in the basement of someone's home - with two tiny slit windows, it couldn't have been legal. But then again, New Jersey housing codes aren't nearly as strict as New York.
Now that Hudson Bergen Light Rail is operating (transit content). You may want to check out Bayone. I would think you could find housing in that range down there.
If you want to find anything closer than that, you'll have to find a roommate. Even NYU housing isn't as cheap as what you've listed.
Housing is way more expensive here than Chicago, but you have to realize that sallaries are a lot higher too.
With your budget, Drexel is probably a better choice.
I've seen a few listings in the Journal Square area that fall within my price range, but I have no idea how good or bad that neighborhood is. I actually appreciate neighborhoods with a certain amount of grit to them, but I don't think I'd enjoy dodging bullets or stepping over dead bodies on my way home from the subway.
But as you mention, salaries tend to be higher in NYC, so I may be able to afford a bit more than what I have listed.
Drexel, in addition to being in Philly with its much cheaper housing market, also has the advantage being set up so that architecture students take their classes in the evening and work full-time in architecture firms during the day. The Boston Architectural Center is the only other school in the US set up that way, but Boston's housing situation is at least as bad as New York's. Too bad it wouldn't be practical to live and go to school in Philly while working in NYC, but at least NYC is close enough that I'd be able to easily visit on weekends whenever I wanted.
-- David
Chicago, IL
You won't find dead bodies in that area. Right south of Journal Square isn't bad. It's a college neighborhood in fact (Saint Peter's College and New Jersey City University).
Also check around Grove St. North of Newark Ave. is all brownstone and should have some affordable apartments. South of Grove is a little more expensive.
Actually, you'd be surprised at how many people live in philly but work in New York. It probably wouldn't be practical if you're in school. The monthly ticket is about $600 and it takes about 1:20 on the Clocker (or whatever they call it now).
It sounds odd at first, but it's a quicker commute than many people have from Long Island or New Jersey.
I don't think I could stomach it, but I have two close friends who do it.
Drexel is a great school, and you'd get a great housing bargain. Even beer here is much cheaper than in Chicago or NY. Just think of Philly as NYlight and you've got it made. Even if you intern there, NY's only an hour away on Acela. Philly is definitely worth your while for a year or two, if you can overlook SEPTA, as I do... For an example of Philly RE prices, check this: Philadelphia Weekly. If you want further info on neighborhoods, email me. BTW, I really hope you come to Philly, and so does John Street.
Thanks for the warm welcome. Nothing is certain at this point, but Philly remains a strong possibility if things in Chicago don't work out for whatever reason.
I was in Philly very briefly for the first time this past summer, and for the most part I liked what I saw (and ate!), although I didn't have enough time to venture far beyond Center City and the Drexel campus. The R7 line from Trenton goes through some pretty scary-looking parts of town (or was that just New Jersey I saw?), but at least Philly is still a real city instead of some overpriced yuppie theme park like some cities have become.
Funny you mention Philly as being "New York Lite"... I've often thought of Chicago as New York Lite (all the action at only a third of the rent), but I read somewhere on philly.com that somebody described Philly as a first cousin to Chicago.
I'll be in Philly again next month to help a friend move some furniture to Chicago, but it's doubtful I'll have much time to do any sightseeing or exploring. My friend has promised me, however, that he'll take me to a place in South Philly that he claims has the best cheesteaks on God's green earth. [*drool*] :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
> The R7 line from Trenton goes through some pretty scary-looking
> parts of town (or was that just New Jersey I saw?),
Not that NJ and Trenton don't have scary parts of town but at least in this case, almost immediately after you depart Trenton on SEPTA you cross the river and you're in Pennsylvania. If I recall you can't actually see much of Trenton from the train.
I was only on the R7 at night, so I didn't get to see much, but there's a huge neon sign just before crossing the bridge into Pennsylvaia that says "Trenton makes and the world takes."
Let me know where that cheesesteak place is for my next visit :).
From City Hall, head south on Broad Street. Left on Wharton. Geno's and Pat's are on opposite corners - Geno's is covered in neon and just past a baseball field - you can't miss it.
Thanks; I'll write it onto my map for the next visit :)
That's where the tourists go because they both claim to have invented the cheesesteak. But the locals think they're greasy, rude, and overpriced. Pretty much any small non-chain restaurant has better cheesesteaks.
Yeah, I didn't say they were good. I don't like Geno's - way too overpriced for too little. I haven't had Pat's in a long, long, time.
My entourage when I went would only eat in brewpubs... anyway, Wichita Steaks & Brews on 2nd, I think, near Market was preety good :). My suggestion for lunch was "let's find any independent dive pizza place; they're bound to have authentic cheesesteaks," which everyone agreed to until we stumbled upon the Dock Street Terminal Brewpub. It may as well have been Applebee's... but at least it was transit-themed! I guess any place that has a huge photo of a PCC on the wall is OK in my book.
If you're going to 9th & Wharton, pass Pat's and go directly to Geno's. It's a much better sandwich. Unfortunately they have gotten a little pricey these days, but it's worth it.
The cheesesteak place I think you're talking about is Geno's at 9th and Passyunk. It sits across the intersection from another place that's also very good, but I can't think of its name right now! Try them both.
The R7 does go through some rough parts of North Philadelphia, skipping through the neighborhood we affectionately call "The Badlands" between Broad and 5th streets. It doesn't stop there, the closest station being the North Phildelphia SEPTA/Amtrak station on Broad Street.
For the record, I think Chicago and Philadelphia feel a lot more like each other than either feels like New York.
Mark
The cheesesteak place I think you're talking about is Geno's at 9th and Passyunk. It sits across the intersection from another place that's also very good, but I can't think of its name right now! Try them both.
Pat's Steaks.
Geno's is terribly overpriced. Their steaks have gotten significantly smaller while their prices have skyrocketed in just the few short years I've lived here in Philly. I think they raise the prices something like a quarter every six months - at least it's been that way the past two years. I haven't had Pat's in a while, but I remember it being pretty good. I imagine their prices are probaby steep as well - they're both owned by the same guy. They just keep up the appearance of a rivalry these days because it's good for business.
I had a Rick's steak today - absolutely delicious, and much bigger and cheaper than Geno's. I think it's also owned by the same folks, but it's located in the Reading Terminal Market, which is a great place to go for any kind of food, and a lot more convenient if you'll be downtown anyway. I highly recommend a Rick's steak. (Especially a mushroom-chicken-american-with, which is what I had today.)
How do any of these places compare to Jim's on South Street? That's where I found myself on my first visit to Philly, and although it seemed a bit on the touristy side, it was still possibly the best cheesteak I've had so far. If any of these places are better than Jim's, I'll be very impressed indeed.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I use "New York Lite" for Philly not just because of its size, but also its proximity. NY overshadows Philly in everything. I just saw one UN report that ranked the largest cities ignoring all political jurisdictions, but instead as agglomerations of population density. Tokyo was largest, followed by "the New York-Philadelphia conurbation." Chicago has no competition.
That's good news.
Every time I come back to NYC on weekends when I go shopping. The Yellow line seems to get PACKED. Gets packed betreen 11:00AM-2:00PM on weekends. I allways get the 12:50PM train to 34 ST from Newport. And always PACKED. So if I want to wait for the 2:10 PM train (that's a too long of a wait for me). Or take the Green Line to the BLUE line.
The Yellow line could use more Subway cars doing these times.
Dominick Bermudez.
We do not refer to the various PATH lines by color, so it's hard to figure out what you mean without pulling out their glossy map.
How can you not know? The map colors match the train marker lights. :-)
I wonder if color-coding a rapid transit system poses a problem under ADA. I know that when I was in DC, I had one huge problem telling what platform I needed to be on - all the reds and greens looking exactly the same!
It's not a problem in Boston; where the colored stripe also features the name of the line - that is, the signs say (T) RED LINE in addition to there being a red stripe.
I don't know if there is a similar failsafe in use in Washington DC.
The transfer signs only have colored dots, and the station entrances have colored stripes surrounding the entrance pillars. The front of the train has a colored square with the word written inside, and the word is used on the digital sign along with colored strips.
No signs saying "RED LINE" but there are sings reading ( ) Shady Grove or ( ) Glenmont. There are also strip maps.
SEPTA back in the early 1980's tried an unsuccessful attempt to rename The Market-Frankford, The Broad Street, and The Subway-Surface color route designations. This was an idea that came from then GM David L. Gunn (which he had when he was GM Of Boston's MBTA). But people around here still refered the lines to their old names (although SEPTA will occasionally use the color designations). So far, the only new (?) rail designations turned out to be the "R" designations for The Regional Rail lines. In the before time, I got confused on which line to take to get to a point, now all I have to do is look at the route number and I am there. Some will say that the "R" route numbers is more difficult, others will say they are easier. That is one of the best ideas that SEPTA has came up with.
SEPTA only uses the "Blue Line" for the Market-Frankford El and "Orange Line" for the Broad Street Subway on it's transfers. I have heard some SEPTA bosses - for reasons that defy logic - still refer to the Orange and Blue lines.
FWIW, the stations still have the respective colors for the background of their respective signs.
Did you also notice that the MFSE cars have a blue paint band around them, and the BSS cars are two-toned in orange. Sounds like SEPTA likes those color designators.
Chuck Greene
I never have that problem. Even though the signs read ( ) Shady Grove and ( ) Glenmont, there are strip maps and other methods of figuring out where to go. I am also a Washingtonian who knows the system backwards and forwards and your post implies you are not.
I know the colors just from riding so much:
Red NWK-WTC
Yellow JSQ-33
Blue HOB-33
Green HOB-WTC
Blue/Yellow JSQ 33 VIA HOB
But I have never heard people call them by color, regular riders say the destination (IE "I'm gonna catch the WTC train") But where are you saying the train marker lights are? On the end cars of the train it says the terminal and on the side the same thing, the only place I can think of is on the outside of the car between the door and window, is that what you are talking about? I never even thought about those lights I just thought they were coincidence that they were red (since I usually ride NWK-WTC).
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
They're on the front of the cars next to the destination sign.
Do you think anyone but a subway-buff who rides PATH a lot has ever noticed that ? The marker light colors aren't documented to the public anywhere, and I don't think most people know what a marker light is.
Not documented? They're the same color as on all the maps, and the advertising/notice monitors in stations use the route color as the background for things like "NEWARK TRAINS DEPART FROM TRACK 2". PATH doesn't explicitly advertise the marker colors, but they use them enough other places that at least _some_ people have caught on.
Before I was a subway buff, I noticed the marker lights, and just thought they were random. I never made the connection between that and the line colors.
JoeV.
The Yellow line Runs from 33 ST to Journal Square.OK. I could call it by line if I want. It just that you don't know the PATH lines by Color.
!!GOOD GOD!!
Dominick Bermudez.
I know what you mean, but almost nobody refers to the lines by the color codes, despite their being used on the maps and train marker lights.
The Pavonia/Newport station has really taken off since the mall opened and housing sprung up in the area - I remember when it was closed during non-peak hours.
The uptown services can only run 7-car trains due to platform length limitations, and between that and the small size of the cars, you can get big crowds. But it's not an hour and twenty minutes between trains - the timetable says that JSQ/33 service runs every 15 minutes from 9 AM to 7:15 PM on weekends.
Certainly the line can accompodate shorter headways; the rush hour has service every 4 minutes. I expect it will need to get a lot more crowded before the PA does something. In fact, maintenance seems to have gone way downhill recently, on both track and rolling stock. Perhaps once they raise the fare things will get better - I doubt they will improve things before the new fare goes into effect.
or to add to the fleet of about 600 cars
PATH's route milage is only 13.8 miles. Why the hell do they need 600 cars?? BART has "only" 670 cars, but there route miliage is 95 miles.
Actually, PATH needs another pair of tubes under the Hudson, to WTC. I don’t know how any other regular rider feels, apart from the obvious sardine, but rush-hour service still doesn’t cut it.
Since the trains are on 90 second headways, there is not much that can be done there, but a second pair of tracks, with Exchange Place rebuilt as two separate stations (Newark and Hoboken lines) would double capacity and be very welcome!
As for the cars, Path’s other big need is to provide more trains on the shoulders of the rush hour (and just about any other time). It seems that they have worked out the train interval so that there is *always* someone standing.
Maybe with the extra $0.50, they can do something about this. Maybe this would also be a good opportunity to change the tickets so that they were MTA fare cards and I don’t have to fish for two cards in my wallet every day!
according to my count PATH has only a little over 400 cars
There are 347 PA1-PA4 cars (as delivered, numbered 100-181; 600-769; 800-894). At least 4 have been converted to work service making 343. I suspect more have been converted. One (maybe one of those four, maybe not) is quite obviously scrapped in Delaware for reasons unknown.
I don't know how many "K"/"MP-52" class cars remain but none are in passenger service. Counting them would give you just under 400. Don't know where your count came up with over 400 even by a little.
-Dave
Even that number sounds like they have too many cars. PATH must have some tight headways. But the posts don't seem to say that. MARTA has 238, with 100 more being delivered and they have 47 route miles. They still manage to have 4 minute headways. Of course they only use 4 car trains on 4 minute headways (north south)or 6 car trains on 8 minute headways(east west), but that is why they are ordering more cars.
I calculated that PATH has 3.3 miles worth of cars (51.75 ft x 343)for 13.8 miles of route, and MARTA also has 3.3 miles worth (75 ft x 238), for 47 miles of route. Or 4.8 miles after the new cars are delivered (75 ft x 338).
PATH has alot of overlap-- From Journal Square to Grove Street we have two lines sharing the tracks (Red and Yellow or red and yellow/blue) From Pavonia to Hoboken we have two lines (Green, yellow or yellow/blue). Likewise from 33rd to New Jersey we have two lines (Blue and Yellow or yellow/blue.) World Trade to Exchange place is shared by green and red.
Also, since PATH is subject to FRA regs, cars are often at HCMF (Harrison Car Maintenance Facillity) for required inspections.
Here is a chart showing overlap.
Red line= NWK( Newark) to WTC(World Trade Center)
Green = WTC To Hob (Hoboken)
Yellow= 33rd to JSQ (Journal Square
Blue= Hob to 33rd
Blue/yellow= 33rd to JSQ via HOB
Now the stations:
Newark- Red
Harrison- Red
JSQ= Red, Yellow, Blue/Yellow
Grove= same as JSQ
Exchange Place= Red, Green
WTC= same as Exchange Place
Pavonia= green,yellow, blue/yellow
Hob= Blue, Yellowe, blue/yellow
33rd line(Christopher to 33rd)= blue, yellow, blue/yellow.
What is the longest number of cars a MARTA platform can handle?
Peace,
ANDEE
8 cars, 600 ft stations. The Bankhead station is only two cars, 150 ft long. They used to use 8 car trains back in the day, but now they don't have enough cars to do that.
Thanks,
Peace,
ANDEE
Here is the latest from a PATH conductor on2/26/01:
First- new cars are at least 5-6 years away.
second- They plan on doing major capital program work:
lengthening Stations from Newark to WTC, Pavonia and Hoboken to hold 10 cars. Hoboken would be done on the stub end by removing the stub end and going under NJT space.
I asked about Exchange Place- My source said they might operate with the front three cars off (they'd operate from acrs 3 and 4).
I asked about the 33rd Line- My source advised they'd probably stay 7 cars.
There was a trash fire Thursday between Garnett and Five Points that shut down service for a few hours. It was probably caused by sparks from the third rail. There are lots of switches in the area there, so there's always a cool light show in that stretch of tunnel.
Altanta is getting a 24.5 mile light rail that will feed into the Arts Center MARTA station. It's expected to carry 70K people a day (The article said 70K a year, but they ran a correction the next day). It is to be completed by 2010. An editorial is all for it, and apparently, so is the business community. Hopefully, there won't be any delays in building it.
I went out railfanning today and got some decent pictures, but didn't see any new Bredas being tested (sorry, WMATAGMOAGH). Nothing special happened, but I noticed there are more people riding on the weekends now than maybe a year ago.
While it was good to meet new friends (SUBWAYSURF, Kevin Walsh) and old (heypaul, BMTman, RIPTA142AHopeTunnel, (1) South Ferry (9)), Jr. and I thought today's ERA-sponsored tour of GCT was otherwise rather disappointing. GCT has been nicely restored, and the stationmaster is justifiably proud of it; getting a minute to sit in a control cab was nice; and the CTC center up on the sixth and seventh floors was quite impressive. There wasn't anything wrong or boring about what we saw and did, but somehow I expected more, especially given the hype in the NYDERA's blurb. Other than the CTC center there wasn't any place that I couldn't (and haven't previously) gone as a ticketed passenger. Was it worth the investment of time and money to travel to the City? Probably not.
In other tidbits from today's wanderings: when we arrived at NYP this morning we came in on track 4. Track 3 was occupied by a LIRR flat car with what appeared to be A/C ductwork on it. I took two photographs and was promptly set on by a bunch of hardhats who didn't appreciate my taking pictures (since they weren't doing anything at the time, I think they thought I was checking up on them).
After the tour Jr. and I took the 6 (running express) to BB and then back to Canal and had lunch. Returning to NYP we took the R, which switched to the express tracks right after Canal due to the station renovation work being done. Had Jr. not been feeling a bit sluggish at this point we would have remained on board all the way up, but we got off at 34th and caught the 2:37 back to Little Silver - a very crowded train, even with all eight cars open. For the first time ever when I've been riding it, the train made two stops in Red Bank, the first one so a wheelchair passenger could disembark using the mini high platform there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>After the tour Jr. and I took the 6 (running express) to BB <<<
Didja catch a R-142 per chance?
Peace,
ANDEE
No... a dismal, filthy rustbird with an even filthier, drunk or drugged female sprawled out across one of the seats in the first car. I've never actually seen an R142 or R142A, although I've been told that I just missed one once. I have ridden the 110A and 110B though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Gotta love those benches!!! I think all seats should be bucket to avoid that exact situation.
I have to agree with you, Chris.
While the tour of the GC Rail-Traffic Control Center and the dual-mode cab demonstration were nice, the bulk of the tour was standard-fare that anyone could have done on their own by spending a day strolling through Grand Central.
The real treat was the "unofficial tour" that Paul, Andee, Mike and I took after the ERA-sponsored trip. We were able to see the GC tennis courts (still active) and visited the elevated avenue (Vanderbilt) that circles Grand Central at second level.
Also enjoyed meeting up with Anon_e_mouse and Jr. again, as well as Mr. Forgotten NY himself, Kevin Walsh.
The tour was not a bad experience, just that we all expected something alittle bit "dicey".
BMTman
>>>The real treat was the "unofficial tour" that Paul, Andee, Mike and I took after the ERA-sponsored trip. We
were able to see the GC tennis courts (still active) and visited the elevated avenue (Vanderbilt) that circles
Grand Central at second level. <<<
Now, that was the stuff I was interested in. I should have stuck around, but got bored after the control center visit and went downtown to buy a digital Olympus 490Z to get better picture quality for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The elevated avenue is technically part of Park. One of the NYC roadways that goes through a building.
I was expecting to see some hidden parts of GCT, and maybe walk along the catwalks next to the big windows as previous tours have done. I didn't ask him, but I imagine the station master would have been against doing anything like that....
With no express A along its usual route up to West 4th, no local east side IRT and no N between Queens and Manhattan the trains are in their usual weekend mess. Will service EVER get up to full strength on weekends again?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I was expecting to see some hidden parts of GCT, and maybe walk along the catwalks next to the big windows as previous tours have done. I didn't ask him, but I imagine the station master would have been against doing anything like that....
In fact, someone did ask him, just before we split into two groups, and yes, he said no way :(.
The control center was, for me, the highlight of the "official" tour. As Doug and Andee have said, they, I, and heypaul continued our explorations of the terminal, and attempted to go on the glass walkways by the windows. Unfortunately, all doors leading to them were locked, and according a sign on one door, there are some broken glass panels on one of walkways.
On the way to the terminal this morning, I got an express ride on an R-142A, car nos. 7271-7280. I was in the last car (7280); the polarozed light filter made it very difficult to see out and doesn't count as a railfan windown in my book! I found the fact that it announced "this is 33 St" moments before we whizzed by it on the express track... the conductor must have shut the announcements off afterward :). I got off at 14 St to head back uptown, and the side destination signs had gone off.
All told, it was a fun day, despite the lack of promised "surprises" on the tour. It was a pleasure to finally meet Subwaysurf, heypaul, and Kevin, and great to see Anon_e_mouse, Mouse Jr., BMTman, and (1)South Ferry(9) again!
agreed. smelled like "shark repellent" to me :)
Dave
Hi everybody
Just to let everyone know, R68 set 2806-2807-2805-2804 is finally back in service.
YES, here are all eight cars, headed toward Queens, (42nd Street this weekend)....
2806-2807-2805-2804--2800-2801-2803-2802
Let me remind everybody that this is rightfully an N Sea Beach train, not the B train which borrowed it over the summer and smashed it up....
Since I am here, let me remind all you Sea Beach folks to LOBBY for a share in the R68's or R68A's for this summer....
They are going to cut service by 6 or 8 trains on the N line....that will create a problem. Think of the crowding already by the time the N gets to 59th Street. What's worse is that they always put the holding lights on at 59 so that the "SPECIAL" people of Bay Ridge (R train) can stroll accross onto the already crowded N train...
The West End folks don't need the R68A's...yes, a lot of people take it too, but they also have the M if they want a seat (the M is ALWAYS empty and is a WASTE of space to be running in along 4th ave and thru Montague)....
THUS, PLEASE CONTACT the MTA and N train superintendent (his number is on the Straphanger's website) and let him know that Sea Beach riders need larger trains. Thus, we Sea Beach folks can have a seat in the morning....
SeaBeach53
Well.
If I was liveing near by the N Line. I just take the N line to 59 St (Brooklyn) Transfer to the R Line at the Local track.
That's what I will do. If I was liveing down by the N line.
Because. Every time it gets packed. I get cramped by the person sitting next to me. (That happin to me last week on the E line.I hate that.)And leaves me with narrow room betreen the person sitting next to me and the other person next to me.The way I like to sit is with my legs open just to take the 1 Seat to myself.
Dominick Bermudez.
SeaBeach53,
Have you met #4Sea Beach Fred ?
He post here all the time, lives in Arcadia,CA 3000 miles away from here. His bond with the Sea Beach knows no boundaries !!
Just mention Sea Beach and you will get his attention.
Mention Brighton and his blood boils !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
The N line sup't is an employee of NYCT. Contrary to what you think, he has absolutely no jursidiction over the number of trains on his line. That decision is made by HIS bosses! I don't know how many trains the N line has now, but the proposed chart has the N line with 20 trains. There is no way the line has 26 or 28 trains at present. And the motormen and passengers in the know will be happy if the 75' cars are removed, you'll have faster trains!
And the motormen and passengers in the know will be happy if the 75' cars are removed, you'll have faster trains!
How many of passengers are those "in the know"? Probably not too many are knowledgable enough of the mechanical differences and advantages. I would say the majority prefer a comfortable, spacious ride with a "modern" subway car, rather than the boring (sorry if I offend anyone) interior of an R32 in which the advantages are reliability, railfan window, and perhaps some others. And is the time saved with these "faster trains" significant enough? By significant I mean more than 5 minutes to Manhattan?
What do you mean by "larger trains? 8 75 foot cars = 10 60 foot cars. You can't run a train longer than 600 feet. Some Sea Beach folks do get a seat! All cars have seats! It's just that the subway is a busy place and some people do have to stand! Stagger your work hours! The subway runs 24/7! If you think the N is crowded, may I invite you to ride the E train in the PM rush between Lex/53rd & Penn Station. You'll be happy just to get on the train!
I do that section of the E when I come to New York WITH A SUITCASE. I always manage to get on with the suitcase but it isn't easy. Then you have a mass exodus at Lexington with a whole ton of passengers transfering from the IRT to the IND to Queens. It is a zoo!
I'm sure you don't get on the the south motor (the car facing WTC). You'll have a hard time with that suitcase!
"It's a zoo!"
Lexington Ave is not the only one that's like a zoo.
Roosevelt Ave Is also Like a zoo. Doing Rush Hours heading to the city. The station gets packed with lot's and lot's of people and getting by these crowds are INPOSABLE!! Way INPOSABLE!!!
Dominick Bermudez.
R68's seat more people.
On average, the long R32's row seats about 6 to 7 people.
R42 and R40 seats only 5-6. Look at the Q train, people there spread out...those Brighton folks refuse to squeeze together to make room for a 6th person...
R68's seat more people becausyou are talking about a 75 foot car vs. a 60 foot car. And many times, the middle longitudal seat remains empty if 2 portly people are sitting next to each other. So the total seated amount of people per train is about the same. Since I work with R32's on the E, the long seats (yes they were designed for 7 people but that was 35+years ago and people generally have bigger hips today), no more than 6 people sit there today. Sometimes 5. If someones asks to make more room, an argument may ensue. The R40/42 were designed for 6, actually today sit no more than 5 due to the hip issue because the doors are a bit wider than the R32 (and R38).
Sorry. West End service loads outweigh N service loads. In addition, the "N" will be cut to compensate for the additional "W" servie running to Astoria, so you are losing no Astoria service.
In addition, the R68As assigned to the West End can't be moved, the MUs are needed for OPTO service.
Well, they can have a special fleet for the Shuttle. They do that for the Dyre Avenue 5 Line.
They managed to have about only 4 R68A sets while keeping the R40 fleet for the B train in 1997, right before the big swap...they can still do that.
I knew it!!! I saw those 4 sets on the D Line a few weeks ago along with some other R68s from Coney Island. Seeing numbers from the Coney Island on the D was weird. I remembered those numbers but didn't ring a bell while I was on them. Otherwise I would've checked for damage. Now, still waiting for 5149 and 5150 to get out.
I saw 5149-5150 on the B the other day. What happen to them that they were out og serivce for?
Robert
Wait... it was either 5149/5150 or 5049/5050. I know that 2 cars derailed upon leaving Concourse Yard for PM Rush Service for the B Line a few days or weeks after 2805-2807 derailed outside if DeKalb.
By the way, check out Joe Korman's website with respect to the train assignments for Oct. 1999 which is more or less what we have now...it will state that the N needs 26 trains sets in the morning....compare to the 20 proposed to Manhattan Bridge flip service...
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/carassignments/assgnbdiv9910.htm
I rode through the 63rd Street connector today on the "R" train. As you ride through the connection to the Queens IND line it first makes a sharp left and then it makes a right as it goes up the ramp and connects with the local tracks of the Queens IND line and then the first stop is 36th Street. I continued to the Roosevelt Ave. station and then took the "R" train back through the 63rd Street connector. I also rode the recently refurbished Franklin Ave. shuttle in a pair of R-68s. What was once one of the most neglected segments of the subway system is now the crown jewel of the system. The Franklin Ave. station at the Northern terminus of the Franklin Ave. shuttle is clean and well lit and you no longer need to use the paper transfer for the "C" train at Franklin Avenue. It is also nice that they added the covered pedestrian bridge over Fulton St. so it makes it more pleasant to change trains at that transfer point in the bad weather.
I also noticed a couple of odd trains on the "A" and "C" lines today. I saw an 8 car "C" train comprised of 6 R-38s and 2 R-32s. There was also a 10 car "A" train with 8 R-38s and 2 GE rebuilt R-32s. I rode a train of R-38s on the "A" line from Jay street in Brooklyn to 59th Street Columnus circle in Mathattan.
BMTJeff
Me too. I took the R line from 14 ST to 71 AVE. That Was a nice ride.
The nicest station in the MTA is. Roosevelt Island. Because that's the only station that come's close to WMATA's very nice subway station's.
Dominick Bermudez.
It was pretty nice ride. The train runs fast and smooth. Even the stations on that path are far more interesting stations.
I also noticed that the tunnel for the 63rd Street connector was nice and clean. It also wasn't as murky as the older tunnels in the system. The tracks were also nice and smooth. The stations along the line seem spacious. They are also nice and clean.
BMTJeff
Because they are newer. Wait a few years and especially with thru service starting soon...
I took the LIRR from Great Neck to Penn both ways today.
Going was a fast ride, had a real "madman" at the controls, speeding into stations and most enjoyable dash between Flushing and Woodside, and in the tunnel.
When we got to Penn I noticed the engineer was a somewhat short young guy. I guess the newer engineers "enjoy" operating more and don't get burned out yet, so they go fast. Also it seems train operators that are young may not be married, and well, when you're alone you just feel like going fast (I know I do).
I walked on over to the 34th street IND station. It appears the entire food court at the mall has closed.
Took a D (front window covered :-( through the dash.
Got off at Grand. After hanging out and Chinatown looking for mystical girls (no luck finding one yet) I took a 6 train from Canal street to Grand Central. It was an ex-Flushing line R36. There was still one 7 line strip map left in the car. It was quite toasty in the lead car #9456. Felt like a nice, midsummers day.
Got off at GCT and really checked the place out. It is a really nice station, and the MNRR trains appear to be in much better shape than LIRR cars, even though they are older. I saw the following trains there:
MNRR M-1 electric (third rail) class-Blue stripe, and the cab is similar to LIRR except for analog speedometer.
Red stripe (third rail and overhead) Cab looks more or less identical to M-1.
Diesel (Genesis)-I really liked these trains better than the new LIRR double deckers. They had a nice, modern cab, that was full width.
The Genesis locomotives look real sharp (why didn't LIRR get these!!!)
Several other observation. Third rail looks different and is orange, most likely because MNRR uses "under-running" shoes. Trains arrive early, and board for 30 minutes or more. That is a really nice feature.
After a bite at Pizza Hut I grabbed a #7 to Times Square, and after hanging out there for awhile I headed to Penn station.
LIRR screwed up our track number. They first call the Pt.Washington in on 16, we all head down to the platform, but no train. Then they announce there was a track switch error and that the train will be on 19. Everybody pushes and shoves up the staircase and we make a mad dash for 19. I was lucky to get a window seat, I rushed like hell to get over there. 10 minutes is not a sufficient boarding time.
I really don't liek Penn station at all after hanging out at Grand Central. The sooner the LIRR goes to GCT, the sooner I don't have to deal with that cheesy, congested Amtrak owned Penn station.
Otherwise the rest of the ride was good.
One thing I know know that Herald Square sucks is that I'm hanging out around 42nd street. I mean there is so much more to do there, and it's a real happenin' place!
>>> I noticed the engineer was a somewhat short young guy. I guess the newer engineers "enjoy" operating more and don't get burned out yet, so they go fast <<<
He probably hasn't hit and killed anyone yet. Once he does he will slow down.
Tom
It's not the engineer's responsibility to "go fast" because he likes it. It's the railroad's responsibility to better secure ROW to authorize higher operating speeds.
>>I really don't liek Penn station at all after hanging out at Grand >>Central
GCT Operated by MNRR.
NYP Operated by Amtrak.
GCT More than enough Track Space
NYP Track Space??
GCT Trains Layup in the station.
NYP Trains Layup in the west side yard, they compete for track space and the bottle neck of regualr Amtrak/NJT traffic going into the Hudson Tubes. Amtrak/NJT are supposed to use the lower numbered tracks. I've seen many a Amtrak on 15/16 and even 17 so what does that leave you with (21 being a short track and one track is used for employee moves to West Side Yard).
GCT Trains Layup in the station. NYP Trains Layup in the west side yard
Remember the names Grand Central TERMINAL, and Penn STATION. You expect layups at a terminal, not at a station.
I think MSG should be torn down, and moved. In it's place an MTA owned terminal serving the LIRR and Amtrak.
Someone I knew was once an LIRR engineer and he said Amtrak had almost "mafia like" power of Penn station and it's portals. He left LIRR because he was harassed and if he complained nothing would happen. Then he overshot a platform once and was fired. He was told if he brought a wrongful termination suit he would be in serious physical danger. No kidding!
It's time to get the mafia out of mass transit and take back Penn and the LIRR!!
>I think MSG should be torn down, and moved. In it's place an MTA >owned terminal serving the LIRR and Amtrak.
Me too. MSG wants to move further west, over the yards. So trade them space and then rebuild an improved version of the monumental Penn Station concourse where MSG was, which being glass and metal wouldn't be all that costly. It would be the world's greatest transporation center, with service to the region's three airports, Amtrak, all three commuter RR's, and most of the City's subway lines, with a one stop hop to the PABT and an expanded Javits. I can't think of a better center to a westward extension of the Midtown business district. But if they just build a new office tower there, the possibility will be gone forever.
Generally, Metro-North is a nicer railroad. It's LOOKS much newer, even though the M1s and M3s can't be any newer than those on the LIRR. Not removing the blue stripe helps, but also a nicer interior makes all the difference. Also, Metro-North is more reliable (ie fewer delays.) A trip from GCT to Poughkeepsie (about 70 miles) isn't much longer than a trip from Penn to Lindenhurst (like 35 miles) . And there is always through service between GCT and diesel territory (not just once-a-day DM runs) GCT is a station with some class, some architectural style. Today's Penn Station is a lot nicer than it was in the 1980's. It's even respectable looking now, but no GCT. (I'm too young to remember Penn before Madison Sq. Garden.
BUT, Metro-North is a smaller operation, and a little less frequent. It also doesn't have 24 hour service. It has some unfair advantages, too. It owns in Manhattan terminal (the LIRR is treated like a stepchild in Penn) and has more capacity than it needs. Penn has way too little for the LIRR. Godspeed with the LIRR/GCT access project!
One thing both railroads have over the subway is speed. When they get going (that's a BIG if), those MU's really fly! Bypassed stations are a blur! The MTA commuter railroads can be a fun ride.
:-) Andrew
Godspeed with the LIRR/GCT access project!
I hole that that project falls flat. There would be no disgrace greater than to have a PRR subsuduary use a New York Central terminal. I hope they divert the funds to demolish GCT and build Madison [] Garden V in its stead, then rebuild Penn Station just like it was in 1911.
Oh, come now! We're talking about the distant past!! The LIRR and Metro-North are both MTA railroads today. The PRR and NY Central are nothing but fading memories. And in the 21st centuty, the Long Island Rail Road NEEDS Grand Central.
I don't think we're ever going to have Penn back the way it was either.
:-) Andrew
I don't think we're ever going to have Penn back the way it was either.
We have the Farley Bldg. project, which is about as close as we'll get.
>>>We have the Farley Bldg. project, which is about as close as we'll get. <<<
...and a HUGE waste of money, IMHO.
Peace,
ANDEE
The past will die only if we let it. If we gather enough support, yell loudly and complain constantly we can stall the "inevitable" for years and years.
I have faith in the infinite wisdom of the PRR and the PRR felt that Long Islanders should go to Penn Station so therefore they should continue to go to Penn Station, forever.
Ummm ... the disgrace was already done ... the ill-fated "PennCentral" ... and they STILL own the land ... PennCentral lives as a landlord STILL. :)
And it shows the pinhead mentality of both railroads in the merger (which resulted in the formation of Gonerail) ... normally a merger is a marriage of two companies that compliment one another. The two railroads pretty much paralleled one another, resulting in an even faster mutual demise. And thanks to the connector, the Hudson line (Amtrak) goes to NYP as it is ... the lines have blurred already, nostalgia not withstanding ...
The West Side connector disgraces only the NYC because its trains now must humbly crawl into Penn Station. It is is a modern triumph of the PRR.
Even in PC days PRR trains never went to GCT and NYC trains didn't go to Penn. Only the New Haven, as a non-bias 3rd party, used both stations.
True, but the "Penn" and the "Central" had become the SAME railroad owing to that Mellon-like stock swap and actually hastened the demise of both. Gotta hand it to the Wall Street types ... sorta like what's going on today.
>>> I hope they divert the funds to demolish GCT <<
Not in our lifetime. GCT enjoys Landmark Status, thanks to Jackie O. (RIP)
Peace,
ANDEE
Wake up and smell the coffee, Mike. The loss of Penn Station was a great tragedy, but to compound that by destroying other landmarks would be asinine. As an historian by training, if not by profession, I take great comfort in knowing that the destruction of Penn Station sparked the historic preservation movement in this country and helped ensure the survival of many, many other significant structures.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Metro North is just A BETTER OPERATION OVERALL THAN THE LIRR COULD EVER HOPE TO BE. I have always found this amazing considering they both come under the same umberella organization. Nit pik all you want, go figure.
Peace,
ANDEE
I will plan on riding Metro North this week to White Plains. There are two malls in White Plains. How can I get to them? I think Galleria is closer to the station, but how far of a walk is the Westchester?
As long as it's a mile or less I'll walk it.
Of course the train ride is really the highlight of the trip, so if I can't make both malls I won't.
This afternoon while railfanning I decided to go Willets point and check out Corona yard. I saw R 36 ML 9552 & 9553 with their Corona Westinghouse (Black) stickers on them. (about time) They did a good job in scraping off those ugly Pelham yellow stickers. I will report again when some more ML R 36s recieve their Corona stickers.
I saw some Mainline R-36s today on the Flushing line. I think that I saw car Nos. 9552-9553. On the same train there were car Nos. 9551-9550, and 9549-9548. There were two pairs of WF R-36s on that particular train plus the requisite WF R-33 car.
BMTJeff
The car numbers should be 9544-45, instead of 9552-53. I was on that train camcording along the Flushing line. The consist of that train was,
(Main Street) 9545-44-9311-9551-50-9549-48-9422-23-9437-36 (Times Square)
Chaohwa
Oops! I think that you were right that the first two cars at the Queens end of the train were 9545-9544.
BMTJeff
I think the Corona Yard should put a purple diamond on the black stickers. Usually a black-stickered car belongs to 239th Street Yard. Corona Yard cars are either black (for WH motors) or yellow (for GE motors) stickers with purple diamonds on them.
Chaohwa
Our own Harry Beck (aka High/Bridge Street) was featured in a local Downtown Brooklyn newspaper back in January. He gave some of his fellow Packer students a tour of an NYCT facility.
Maybe Harry can elaborate on the details...
BMTman
Yep- How'd you find out Doug???
I worked at the control center during the summer as a high school intern. My school has a program where students can lead trips for other students once a month. I have given two tours of the control center and the city hall loop so far. They didn't let us off in the loop of course but gave us permission to ride around and had the train stop for several minutes to let me point out certain parts of the station with a high powered flashlight through the windows of the car. I plan to do another of these tours this spring. It is only open to students and faculty of my school however. I got written up in the Brooklyn Heights Press in January along with a picture. If you would like the text of the article feel free to e-mail me and I will send it to you.
The Article also made mention of my website that contains over 1500 pictures of the New York City Subway (All Taken By Me)
The Other Side Of The Tracks- A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
-Harry
Simple: I found a copy of the paper laying around the office last week. We "stockpile" papers for a period of two months, beleive it or not.
BMTman
cool- If you have any extra copies I would love to get a few more...
-Harry
I'll see what we have -- ususally we keep one of each of the local papers, and 2 or more of the "biggies" (i.e., Daily News, NY Times, The Post and Newsday).
I'll let you know during the week.
BMTman
>>We "stockpile" papers for a period of two months
What bathrooms not working?
lol
Just found an article on NJTransit's site suggesting an attempt at restoring passenger service on the CSX Trenton line. If such a plan were to be approved, it probably would only take a few months to get the trains running. The ROW is there and used, one of the four stations is already present, and electrification will not be done since the line will terminate in Newark.
I don't know how old this article is, but:
West Trenton Service
CSX is hurting to have that line double tracked. Getting NJT on board with the cash is a good way to see it happen. Yard facilities (SEPTA) already exist at West Trenton. The topography of the line should allow for some fast speeds. Electrifacation of to Boonton Line will free up some diesels.
NJT will have to have a separate yard at West Trenton. SEPTA isn't sharing.
Well ,|,, them.
The Hopewell NIMBYs are fighting it because it will bring too many outsiders' cars into their town to park at the station.
[The Hopewell NIMBYs are fighting it because it would bring too many outsiders' cars into their town to park at the train station.]
There are a couple of ways to address that:
1. Parking restricted to residents only. (This works if the NIMBYs' motivation is merely elitism.)
2. Fees charged to outsiders. (This works if the NIMBYs' concern is parking capacity.)
3. A multi-level garage. (Could be combined with #2; also addresses capacity.)
4. No station at all; trains would pass through without stopping. (Prevents outsiders from accessing Hopewell by train. Then Hopewell-ites would go the next town and become outsiders!)
This has been in the works for many years, actually since SEPTA terminated its service to Newark in 1982.
NJT and SEPTA may have separate platforms at West Trenton, and it's not a matter of choice about the yard. SEPTA simply doesn't have the space. Ridership projections have been questionable, but with NJ Transit under a lot of pressure to improve rail access to South Jersey (or close-by) this is a pretty good bet, regardless of what the good people of Hopewell say.
The line would essentially be double-tracked from West Trenton to Bound Brook, one Interlocking at Bound Brook has to be installled to get passenger trains from the Trenton Line into the RVL station. Also some overpass and bridge work. Including physical, plant & equipment availability its about an 18-24 month project.
Let's hope they get started soon!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
It will most likely join the RVL at the Bridgewater (nee Calco) station, near the BRI Transfer station.
Now we all know that in Aug this year, the new "V" and "W" line are on their way to serve us; the south side manhattan bridge and 63rd street tunnel will finally open its door; B and D will cut back to 34th street; Q will be transfer to broadway and join the N/R; and G already lost it battles to remain in Queens blvd?
What gonna happen to N, will it runs to bridge, or will it remain to the tunnel as usual?
The N will remain as is.
And that pisses my off no end. The N in the bowels of lower Manhattan is one big bummer. When I g et to New York I'm going to the TA and raise hell.
Diamond Q should go to bridge, circle Q should go to tunnel. B {or W} and N should go to bridge, M and R should go to tunnel.
That way:
Brighton: 1 bridge, 1 tunnel
4th Ave: 2 bridge, 2 tunnel
Evens things out
Hey New Flyer 857---can we get you on the TA staff? It might add some needed sanity, class and fairness to that cruddy and prejudiced body. I can't figure out their reasoning, though my buddy Pork will complain about ridership. I do know, though, that if you shorten the time to get to one place or another people will ride the train that gets them there faster. Since the Sea Beach and West End are near each other within blocks along their run, and even come together at 62nd Street and New Utrecht, it stands to reason that if we make my Sea Beach more attractive by shortening its distance they would prefer to ride on a great line like my N train. Capice?
That's the problem. The B goes to places where it's the only game in town. After the N leaves the R, it's already close to the B, when it leaves the B, it's close to the F.
Meanwhile, the B when it pulls away from the N towards Bath Beach it has a much larger service area.
If the T/A had any brains they would put the "N" train back where it belongs which is over the Manhattan bridge and not through the tunnel into the Battery. I would also make it express in Brooklyn at least through 59th Street and at certain times they can run Coney Island specials that are express through to Stillwell Avenue.
BMTJeff
Its seems to me that everyone of ur guys saying that the TA is treating N badly. I have idea, maybe we all should protest in front of TA headquarter and tell them to start treated N equally.
If you could schedule it for the afternoon of March 30th I would be there. I'm sure it's closed on weekends and that is the weekend I will be in town. We might get as many as a dozen of us there. Sorry for being so cynical but it would take something earthshaking to get those morons to see the light.
I hope that I'll be able to come on March 30th. I also hope that the T/A sees the light and give the "N" train better treatment than they're giving it now.
BMTJeff
Well, I really hope there is a chance to settle this, It time teach these idiots some lessons. It time to prove these idiots that N can fight for its rights. G is already lost it battle from them. Lets not have the N to became the second victim
The N lost its fight long before the G. However the fight for the N makes more sense than the fight for the G. The fight for the G is nothing more than a selfish minority. The fight for the N makes sense.
Well!, there is a hearing about the proposed changed for the summer. And the hearing are scheduled @ 10AM 3/2/01 in 250 Broadway, NY. If someone are in favor of having N run on the Bridge. It would be a great idea for that person to come forward at the hearing and settle the score. I wished I could there but, something have prevented me to attend that important hearing.
For more information about the hearing, Please visit the Straphanger Campaing Web Site. :-)
I live in California and I can't get to New York as much as I'd like to, but you can bet if I could be at that meeting I would----and very vocal too.
I would also make it express in Brooklyn at least through 59th Street and at certain times they can run Coney Island specials that are express through to Stillwell Avenue.
It already runs express beneath 4th Avenue, and should continue express NORTH of there (MB, Broadway), but Coney Island Express Specials are a waste of a good train.
If Sea Beach ridership is as low as everyone claims, why not run these 'Coney Isle specials'? But, a better Idea would be to run some peak direction N trains express up west end from coney island (assuming you would do a special at all).
Sea Beach ridership may be low, but Coney Island station ridership is just as low.
Running it from Brighton Beach NX style might make more sense, but that is difficult and would mess up all the other trains.
NX routing is not that difficult, D and N lines are right next to each other at Coney. And, as for running the N peak dir express on the west end, it will also pick up passengers along the West End Express stops.
So will the new "V" and "W" line have a few bugs? (LOL)
Does Anyone have a clue?
The TA doesn't and Sea Beach Fred here is a little bent out of shape about this.
Took Metro North Harlem line into the city tonight to meet some friends. Funny thing on the train, a couple of punks were thrown off @ fordam for not having tickets. They apparently had brought two purple seat checks on board with them. What they were too stupid to realize is that the conductors were using green.
At GCT is was walking through the main concourse towards the 456. Walking straight towards me is Giuliani holding hands with his girlfriend. He was wearing a baseball cap low and walking fast with a plain clothed officer right behind. Funny thing is that almost no one noticed!
Took the 6 uptown, no luck getting an R142 but I did see 7777 running on the #5.
The Metro North conductors are very nice though a little militant about "feet on the seats."
The Metro North conductors are very nice though a little militant about "feet on the seats."
Like on NJT when they yell at you for flipping the seats. I think all commuter RR seats should be flippable. Amtrak also.
Did he say hi or shake hand with you?
No, he was walking too fast. Anyway, I met and shook hands with him on New Years Eve 1999/2000. In fact, I was standing just a few feet from him when the ball dropped, but that's a different story.
I was in Times Square to ring in 2000 myself...but wasn't quite as close to the Mayor :-) -Nick
I guess the punks refused to buy a ticket w/penalty fee!
I was at GCT today also, but did not go to the tour (it cost $$ I don't have).
Metro North sure runs a nice railroad. The conductors seem more "high class" compared to LIRR. At least that was what I could see from the boarding procedures (on the LIRR, conductors are nowhere to be seen at boarding).
So you say the mayor getting romantic. Awww, isn't that sweet?
Man I sure wish I had a cutie to hold hands with. :-(
One day I may ride MNRR somewhere. Any good destinations worthwile??
It sure seems like a high class railroad compared to LIRR's operation.
They actually leave on time and manage to get the doors to close, once only. Also there didn't appear to be newspapers, pizza crusts, and drink containers all over the place like on the LIRR.
One day I may ride MNRR somewhere. Any good destinations worthwile??
I've only ridden Metro North once, up to Poughkeepsie and back, but it seemed like a reasonably well-run operation. The trip to Poughkeepsie was very scenic for most of the route, as the tracks go alongside the Hudson River and pass under some impressive bridges along the way.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yeah, take MetroNorth to New Haven and get a connecting bus that'll drop you off at the Shoreline Trolley Museum in East Haven. You'd likely find Thurston, Lou, Subwaysurf or some other SubTalkers up there if it's a Saturday or Sunday...:-)
BMTman
Take the Hudson Line round-trip to Poughkeepsie and back. The line runs right along the Hudson River for just about the whole trip and is very scenic (probably even more so in either the middle of October or after a snowfall). Too bad the West Shore Line isn't used for passenger trains, because you would then be able to go up one line and return on the other, provided there was some link over the mid-Hudson bridge, like a bus. I think Short Line uses that bridge, but I'm not sure. I know they serve the area.
Actually I was just thinking a short trip to Westchester or something.
Another reason why Metro North is better than the LIRR: when Metro North trains make station stops, the conductors open the doors within a few seconds. On the LIRR, they take much, much longer (30 seconds isn't uncommon).
Yeah I noticed that. It's actually pretty frequent for doors opening 20 seconds or more after the train stops. This happens at least once whenever I'm on the LIRR.
Getting them closed can take just as much time. Sure cuts in to that on time performance, even with the 5:59 rule.
[Walking straight towards me is Giuliani holding hands with his girlfriend. He was wearing a baseball cap low and walking fast with a plain clothed officer right behind. Funny thing is that almost no one noticed!]
As you passed, did you 'flip him the bird' or someting?
Maybe you should have asked him about the City Hall station and if he'd be so kind as to reopen it...
:-)
BMTman
>>>Maybe you should have asked him about the City Hall station and if he'd be so kind as to reopen it... <<<
Since the Brooklyn Bridge station has been retiled including "City Hall" I don't think they ever intend to...
www.forgotten-ny.com
[... no luck getting an R142 ...] They don't run on the week-ends, because there are only a few sets in, so only senior men (with week-ends off) are driving them.
[... a little militant about "feet on the seats.]
The LIRR is the same ... hay I don't want to sit on the dirt from your shoes ... if you use a paper to rest your feet on sometimes they will leaver you alone.
Mr t_:^)
They don't run on the week-ends, because there are only a few sets in, so only senior men (with week-ends off) are driving them.
Not true; I got an R-142A on the 6 this past Saturday
Got this off my Amtrak NEC e-mail list.
Train hits 125 mph in secret trial run; Turboliner travels by night to test
systems after $12M upgrade; Gov. Pataki
was unaware of effort
A high-speed train connecting the Capital Region to New
York City reached its peak speed of 125 mph in a secret test run conducted
in
the middle of the night last week, state officials said Friday. The train
service, which will shave 20 minutes off the 142-mile trip to Penn Station,
won't officially begin until late April or early May, said Michael
Fleischer,
a spokesman for the state Department of Transportation.State officials had
hoped to have the high-speed turboliner ready for passenger service this
month, but that has been delayed five to seven weeks. Fleischer attributed
the delay to "normal testing procedures'' but declined to
elaborate.Officials
from Amtrak and the state DOT conducted the test Feb. 15-16 between 9 p.m.
and 3:45 a.m. to avoid disrupting normal service along the route, Fleischer
said.Unlike past milestones in New York's high-speed train development --
including the original announcement in New York City and an inaugural run
from New York to Boston -- officials kept the public and even Gov. George
Pataki in the dark about the test run.The test ran between the Rensselaer
station, which serves Albany, and the Hudson station. Crossing guards were
placed at each rail crossing during the test, in accordance with federal
safety standards, Fleischer said.The turboliner was originally built in the
late 1970s and could reach speeds of up to 110 mph.Super Steel Schenectady
Inc. of Glenville has been upgrading the train's turbine engine. Other
improvements include renovated interiors, ergonomic seats and sites for
laptop computers.The test, one of seven that will eventually be used on the
route, was done to check the train's stability, ride quality and
performance.The diesel locomotive fleet on the run tops out at 110 mph and
takes two hours and 20 minutes to reach New York City. The new trains will
cut the trip to an even two hours for the roughly 800,000 commuters who
travel annually between Albany and New York City.Amtrak officials said they
do not anticipate a fare increase to pay for the upgraded $12 million
turboliners.The governor said he was pleased with the test and the progress
on the state's $200 million project to provide high-speed rail
service."High-speed train travel is coming to New York state, which will
help
promote economic development and enhance travel options across the state,''
Pataki said in a statement Friday.New York's high-speed train will be the
second fastest in the country behind Amtrak's Acela Express from Boston to
Washington, D.C.
Can't be such a secret. It was covered in detail on NY1
Peace,
ANDEE
ANDEE,
You just broke the 13th Commandment!
THOU SHALL NOT STEAL THY SUBTALK NEIGHBORS THUNDER!
or is it
THOU SHALL NOT RAIN ON THY SUBTALK NEIGHBORS PARADE!
I always get them confused.
avid
lol
I first rode the turbos back in the 70s, I think even before the scheduled start date on a live test run. They promised to cut the trip to Buffalo down to 5 or 6 hours from the scheduled 8 and a half.
Coincidentally, I also rode the turbos on a Paris to Caen trip. Amazingly, it was the same train, except the coffee was better.
If you look at todays schedule, it is still 8 and a half hours to Buffalo on Amtrak.
I'll believe in high speed travel in NYS when I see it myself.
The rehabs are getting done - from Rensselaer to Poughkeepsie, it's a fast dash and then MNRR traffic gets in the way headed south. The westbound is the old NY Central mainline but it's been in only fair shape since it served Conrail freight. That too is getting rebuilt slowly. But West of Smallbany, it'll still be a while. The bulk of commuters though on the "Empire Corridor" are between Rensselaer and particularly Hudson and south since MNRR dies at Poughkeepsie ("Po'town" to the locals) and it's pointless arrow if you want to go past there.
But the first leg of the trip from up here to Po'town has been QUITE fast with the trains doing 90 to 110 until Po'town and a respectable clip south of there even.
I know a few regular Empire commuters, and they have less than favorable opinions of Amtrak's service (Late, but my brother likes it), the track condition (which everyone hates above Pok), the Turbos (My brother doen't like those), and the time it takes (Some like, others don't)
It seems to be the big sticking point is the condition of the track from Po'town to All-bunny.
Anyway, what's the big tadoo about turbos hitting 125mph? I'd be a LOT more interested in what the fuel use is (probbably still obnoxious), and the maintenance on the engines will be (I'm amazed Amtrak even thinks they have the resources/ability to maintain a gas turbine properly/safely, though I'd assume the newer units are a lot better than the old. I'm curious as to what the turbines are and their technology. Axial compressors hate FOD, and fixing an ingested pebble / hard thing is big $$$ on the big engines*. Centrifugals are cheaper / more robust, but not always ideal (helicopters use them, though). Then there's the turbine section, where the expensive stuff is.
I honestly don't get amtrak, the FRA, or the US DOT's big obsession with gas turbines. No matter how you slice them, they're just not suited for rail use. It'd be better to direct resources towards light weight diesel / diesel sets for slow speed, and electrification for high speeds, and a mix for medium speeds. I'd also love to see an attempt at useing a wankle engine in place of a traditional reciprocating diesel, as it'd have the advantages of turbines (high power/weight ratio), and the advantages of traditional diesels (robust, cheap, lower fuel use).
*There's 2 ways to do this. Remove the engine, dissasemble it, and fix the dammaged section. Or, you can use a few borescopes and a few special tools to assess the dammage and litterally go in through a few tiny holes and fix it. One's really expensive and takes a while, the other's really really really expensive and takes a longer while. Of course, on a tiny engine, it's just easier to pull it out and pull it apart. Anyway, turboshafts are (quite) a bit simpler than turbofans :)
I have ridden the turboliners from New York to Albany from time to time about 10 years ago. I think Amtrak can do better when it comes to the Empire Corridor.
I do not quite understand why Amtrak is so concerned gas turbine trainsets. I am amazed at why for so long the MNRR to Poughkeepsie was never electrified. Now that the Empire corridor trains run into Penn Station it should not be a problem to install overhead line from there to Albany. I think electrification is the only way to go in this case. It's much simpler. An electric locomotive is limited by the power available at the wire as opposed to what an engine can generate. No emissions and less noise also. It's time to get away from oil for powering our trains. Regards, A K Howard, Memphis TN.
First let me start by saying that as a resident of the Smallbany area, I am a firm believer in electric propulsion, even though you're merely replacing the local pollution source on teh tracks with a centralized pollution source that people don't want built near them and we're already thin on electrons for the coming summer. Still, I agree that I'd rather see electric locomotives if it were practical.
That all said, it wouldn't really be all that practical though I could see third rail service extended to Hudson along with MNRR service since Hudson, NY is the limit of commuters who ride to the City every day. There's a respectable number of people out of Albany/"Rennsala" as well but it's nothing compared to the number of passengers and trains on the NEC, MNRR or LIRR. There's a speed limit imposed by catenaries and they're aiming to do the trains at 125MPH which is way above the limit where you're more likely to pull down wires than not. And at those speeds third rail conductance isn't all it's cracked up to be either.
But the big issue is the expense of building it vs. the number of fare-paying passengers to take up the cost of doing it and then maintaining that many miles of wire for the number of people served. As much as I'd like to see it, it doesn't strike me as practical for the number of trains and passengers that would be served given the price already being quite high for a ticket now.
Since most of the trains on the route are Lake Shore Limited (to Chi-town) or to Montreal, they'd hit unelectrified sections ANYWAY and I wouldn't be surprised if the Amtraks are running diesel power as soon as they get out of the 'no diesel' limits of NYC's border anyway so again, I don't see it working on this basis. When you consider that the Syracuse wreck a few weeks ago had only 90 people on it (and it was the "morning train" this gives you an idea of the lack of money there is on the lines now being served to pay for all that.
I'd like to see it of course but I don't see it happening, especially when our Shrub in Washington insists that we're already in a great financial calamity ...
Story from NY1
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't care if that oil is flammable or not. If a train has to stop over that oil for an extended period of time time for any reason (train ahead or that train stalled), and passengers start smelling the fumes, a panic situation may develop. Because the NY news media outlets are not knowlegeable about transit matters, this story is not getting the publicity it deserves. Service should be suspended till the source of the leak is discovered and cleaned up.
I was in Lex 7 station in Friday afternoon and it smells like a boiler room.
Arti
So if this is serious, and I believe you are correct, where is TWU 100? (We already know MTA is being lame).
It would be far more disasterous and worse PR, IMO, to confine the 7 to Queens and force everyone onto the E/F/N/R. Generally the media ignorance about transit matters leads them to be hypercritical of the system; i.e. complaining about crowding and headways, and crying "put on more trains!"
Also, I think the more publicity this gets, the more people will be piling into 7 trains in hopes of making money with invented health problems later on.
It should be suspended because in that particular area, there is lots of congestion during rush hours. Trains are probably stopping over that spot right now.
According to public health experts, safety issues aside, such leaks could lead to long-term respiratory problems...
Wouldn't that fall under safety issues?
I was asking my dad (Ex NYFD) about #6. That's "bunker oil", apparently. It's really thick stuff*. Neither of us could figure out why anyone would use it, other than it's cheap. Anyway, it's pretty hard to get the stuff to ignite. Heck, it's hard to get the stuff to flow.
*I remember getting a cub scout tour of the Glenwood power station. They used (still use?) #6 there. The stuff is so thick, that in the cold, it's basically a solid (it almost acts like one too - it'll shatter, etc). Anyway, it's amazingly thick - they need to preheat it a bit.
The UP turbines burnt it (which is probbably why they lasted as long as they did - the stuff was really cheap back then), but couldn't be started off it, because it was way too cold to inject. They used propane, i think, and once the flow got heated up, they'd switch over.
Yeah I'm by the Glenwood power station, and when I pass there I don't see alot of smoke from the stacks so I doubt they use that #6 oil.
Were there any old industries that are long gone near the Steinway tunnel? There could have been buried tanks somewhere that are now leaking.
Metrocard collectors:
For a week about a couple of weeks, there has been a Metrocard limited to only one MVM. The MVM is located at the New York City Visitor Center at 7th Ave. and 53rd St. (Manhattan).
Yes, there is an MVM at a non-NYCTA location. I bought a $3.00 card and got one yesterday, had to because the trade-in feature was removed. They still may have some left so hurry. The MVM in in the back of the Vistors Center.
"Paint The Town Red" is a NYC winter celebration geared for winter tourism during NYC's slow season.
Subway Buff didn't report this as with other new released Metrocards because no booths or other MVM's have them. Call (212)484-1222 for hours or visit them on the web at nycvisit.com.
HURRY WHILE SUPPLIES LAST !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
P.S. - The Metrocard Show is this Saturday, March 3rd at 283 Lexington Ave bet. 36th and 37th Sts.
The Statan Island ferry building is technically not a NTCTA facility but also has MVM's.
"The Staten Island ferry building is technically not a NTCTA facility but also has MVM's."
Good point, any other non-NYCTA locations with MVM's out there ?
Bill "Newkirk"
On NYCT property, was spotted travelling south into 149th Street, Third Av as of 30 mins ago. With signage set for the 6, I have no doubt in my mind the set was going to Westchester Yard.
Review: This far, Bombardier Cars, 6301-6465 are here with the exception of 6356-60. Have not seen these as of yet.
Kawasaki Cars 7211-7330 are all accounted for.
160 Bombs and 120 Kawi's are here. Your grand total is 280 cars.
-Stef
when the yards get crowded, they will be forced to run them.
A couple of R142As were in service today on the 6.
Well when are we gonna see them in service? I waited for over an hour at 34th Street for an R142 this past Friday and all I saw were Redbirds on the 2. I didn't even pass one on the way home (except in Unionport Yard).
Something's wrong with this picture. Why aren't the R142s in service?
6311-20 (the Yankee Train) were spotted on the Lexington Av Local yesterday evening, making simulated stops, but no door openings on the wrong side (stop and go). I wonder what that was all about? 142s to make their debut on Lexington Av?
On a related note, 6426-30 and an unidentified companion just made simulated stops now.....
-Stef
6415-20 came back from inspection at 207, they are in unionport now. i have pix
A couple of R142's made their debut on the Lex express about a month ago. I remember there was a fire on the West Side around Houston St and the 2 was forced to run on the Lex in both directions.
I'm wondering how many trains of the R-142 subway cars are actually running because one day I would like to try and ride the new R-142 subway cars.
BMTJeff
None today, but you might wnat to try catching one on Monday or sometime during the week, Mon. thru Fri. That's when I usually look for it when I go to school. I used to look for it at Third Av./149th Street at one of these times: 7:10am, 7:15am, 7:35am, 10:15am, 10:45am, 10:50am, and 11:05am. Those were when I used to ride them when I saw them. Now, that could change.
You might have to hunt them down. :@)
End of Story. :)
That's all I can say.
-CWalNYC a.k.a. bus/subway fan (8@)
Your answer was posted by Stef just awhile before your post. Click here
As of January 31, 2001:
6301-6350 and 6411-6420 have been in service on the 2.
(I have yet to find them running on weekends)
7211-7310 have been in service on the 6.
As far as I can find out, no additional cars have been placed in service since about January 22, and some of the above are down temporarily for various modifications.
The biggest problem to date seems to be the Automated Announcement System, though there are door and brake system troubles as well.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
When a subway train departs from a terminal, the conductor uses the following buzz codes to tell the operator that the train is ready to go,
BUZZ-BUZZ-buzz-buzz
where BUZZ is a long period of buzz sound, and buzz is a short period of buzz sound.
What are the other buzz codes? I tried to look up at www.nycsubway.org but I cannot find a section about buzz codes.
Thanks for your help.
Chaohwa
I have a little knowledge of the buzz code from experience. Two buzzes mean the train will proceed from a stop. One buzz means that the train must remain halted. I'm not sure of the other buzz codes.
BMTJeff
When I was on the E Train one time. I heard 5 buzzes. But what 5 buzzes means?
Dominick Bermudez.
Five SHORT buzzes indicates that the train operator is requesting that the conductor come up to the train operator's position. This was done years ago so that if the train operator had to decend down to the roadbed, the conductor stayed in the front of the train to man the radio.
Today, conductors and train operators have their own radios, so it will be very rare that you hear five SHORT buzzes, except in cases of emergency.
The first 2 buzzes, the long ones, are by the C/R and the last two is by the T/O. If the C/R buzzes and doesn't get buzzed back... that means either the T/O isn't on the train or socked.
On the CTA, back in the day, one meant buzz meant stop. Two buzzes meant proceed. Three buzzes from the motorman meant don't open the doors, the train isn't berthed properly like stopping at the six car mark with an eight car train, or stopping because of a signal/ cab signal indication within a station. Four buzzes was a call for assistance and could be as simple as the motorman wanting to place an order for coffee & during a terminal fallback. Sometimes one and two buzzes meant which side of a terminal pocket the train was coming into.
I said back in the day because on today's CTA, there's no conductor anymore.
David Harrison
Socked??????
I don't know, either. But, the TO is not required to buzz back two short. His response to two long buzzes from the CR at a terminal should be to release the brakes and take power.
Well, you never know... passengers go nuts sometimes...
When leaving a terminal, if you hear two LONG buzzes, it is the conductor signalling the train operator that he may proceed. This is only done at terminals, although there are several exceptions.
When you hear two SHORT buzzes, it is from the train operator as an acknowledgement to the conductor that he has received permission to leave the terminal. However, he is not required to give two short buzzes to the conductor. It is generally done as a courtesy.
When in route, if you hear one LONG buzz, it is from the train operator signalling the conductor either to leave the doors open if they are already open, or to leave the doors closed if they are already closed. Two SHORT buzzes from the train operator tell the conductor that it is okay to either open or close the doors depending on what the long buzz was for.
Wouldn't it be easier to just use the intercom or hand-held two-way radios? Or are the older cars not equipped for this?-Thomas
The "buzz" dates back to the days before radios and PA systems. That was all you had on the pre-war cars, and the explanations for what the buzzes meant has been correct here. On the standards and the R1/9's and 10's, it was overhead on the bulkhead outside the storm doors at the operating point along with your indicator lights. In the postwar cars, it was all moved into the cab.
The buzzes are just less likely to be misunderstood.
(If you want a Buzz, just drink a few beers if you ask me otherwise:)
RULE 62 (rule book not to date)
Train Buzzer Signals (o for short sound ____ for long)
a) ____ Stop.
b) ____ ____ Proceed.
c) o o An answer to any signal
d) o o o Signal for Train Operator to sound train horn or whistle
for Road Car Inspector.
e) ____ o ____ o Signal for Train Operator to sound train horn or
whistle for (Police) assistance.
f) o o o o o Signal for Conductor to cone to Train Operator Cab.
g) These same signals must be used by a Conductor when stationed on the front end of train by reason of the Train Operator operating from some other car.
h) Unnecessary sounding of buzzer is forbidden.
WARNING
Conductors must NOT pass buzzer signals with the side doors open, unless the Emergency Brake Valve is opened.
Lou, thank you for the buzzer signal information. I have already had a lot of buzzes now! :)
Chaohwa
Why couldn't they install A/C on the R30s was it very hard or what? They should have kept it in service up to today because service on the BMT/IND would have been increase, with or without A/C. Their all Redbirds R26/28/29, R33ML,R33S/R36ML,R36WF & R30 would have retired together. But to bad we don't have the R30's anymore.
The suits at the TA decided not to install a/c. They wanted to hype the fact that all cars except the #7 singles were air conditioned. The cars were heavy to begin with, and would, of course, be heavier with a/c. Plus us R30 fans don't know whether or not, since the a/c apparatus would have to be placed somewhere on the cars, whether or not have compromised the structural integrity of the cars. They scrapped the cars because the R68A's came in, ridership was way down at the time, and there was a greater availibility of cars since by that time all B division cars were either new or GOH'ed. As has been lamented here before, with ridership up and 63rd St. being opened before the R143's arrive, in hindsight the retirement of the R30 was a bad decision. Call it bragging, but I was privleged to operate the last R30 in service on the BMT (M line) before that last trainset was transfered to Pitkin for C service.
A few R-30s remain in the system and can be seen in the Coney Island yard. There might be a few R-30s in other locations as well. Some of them are being used as training cars.
BMTJeff
That's right. But they are a mixture of the GE overhauled ones and the Westinghouse ones which were not overhauled. The latter ones were used on the garbage trains. But the few cars around are not mechanically suitable to be used on the road. And while they were in service, the overhauled GE's were not allowed to be mixed with the non-overhauled Westinghouse cars.
When GE overhauled some of the R-30s they only perofrmed a light overhaul if I'm not mistaken. None of the R-30s went through the GOH program.
BMTJeff
The GE R-30s (8250-8411) were completely overhauled by NYCTA at Coney Island Shops between 1985 and 1987. They were indeed considered GOH cars when operational. GOH largely consisted of thorough cosmetic rehabilitation, partial re-wiring and a thorough mechanical and electrical overhaul.
It did NOT do anything to upgrade the existing car specifications.
The WH R-30s (8412-8569) were not truly overhauled, just given a cosmetic "cleaning-up" and were repainted in the "Fox Red" scheme to make them part of the graffiti-free fleet.
Supposedly there was one R-27 painted red as well, as it was mated to a WH R-30.
The R-27s were neither overhauled, nor repainted and were weeded out of the fleet as part of the anti-graffiti initiative. If memory serves, their last run was April, 1989.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
George, your memory is pretty darn good, I had to go into my payroll archives to find that. April 1 of 1989 was on a Saturday before I took vacation for 2 weeks. 8173, which was one of many least favorite R27s decided she had had enough after one lousy mile of service from 145 Street. There is a picture of it in the junkyard links on this site. Most memorable of that car was the idea behind repainting the R27s red was to replace the R10s before the BMT eastern division R30s arrived. When I returned from vacation, 8173 was in Pitkin yards scrapline, still smelling fresh of paint, without the dry slide running down the door panels and having served no more than a month and possibly two weeks in service in the livery. The cars had severe reliability problems, flickering indication, dead motors, smoke issuing, I wonder why the R16s get a bad rap. Good riddance, this time around for the Grand Street Shuttle, I will get to keep my hearing.
I recall reading in a couple of books that the R-27s were generally in bad condition prior to their retirement. I believe only one R-27 survives and it is Car No. 8145.
BMTJeff
Where is 8145? I don't have it on the preserved/museum list.
-Dave
That is the school car out of 36 Street Yard. It can be seen from the Northbound M or B train when leaving 9th Avenue. It is actually overhead when the train enters the SBK Tunnel after clearing the Home Signal just outside 9Th Avenue.
Thanks. Turns out we even have a picture of it....
-Dave
Car No. 8145 if it still exists should be in the Pitkin yard.
BMTJeff
A big reason the GE R-30s were retired so early was to provide new controllers for the GE Worlds Fair cars, shich were in desperate need of re-overhaul in 1992-93. They still have them.
The other reasons are also valid. The cars could have had A/C installed but the equipment would have been very costly for a short-term investment.
As I recall the cars were largely withdrawn for the summer after about 1989.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Nah, they ran season round on the C local into 1993.
When I am standing in front of a train, I can hear some Morse-code-like sounds inside the cab. I am curious about two things.
(1) What is Morse Code used for in subway communications?
(2) Are operators required to fully know Morse code?
Chaohwa
That noise is coming from the train operators radio. The noise drivers me nuts. But that noise can be stopped by simply turning off that knob. The radio still works without the annoying beeps.
The noise you hear is comming from the radio. I believe it is a transmitter ID that is (was?) required by the FCC. I'm not sure why other operations in the area don't do it. Then again, the NYCTA's transmitter and radio gear is probbably acient. I wouldn't be surprised if it used tubes in it. In fact, I'd be surprised if it *didn't*.
As an aside, the University of Hartfords "real" radio station (91.3FM, WWUH, West Hartford. Broadcasting as a community service of the University of Hartford.....) just got their transmitter replaced. The new one is totally solid state, the old one had a few tubes in it, though it was fairly recent. Big air cooled ones. My friend gets the mic, and I usually join him, Friday mornings, 3 - 6am. Mostly death metal and whatever dirty stuff we can get away with between songs >:)
The Memphis Fire Department has the beeps you refer to. I work at a newspaper in a suburb of Memphis, and the beeps drive me nuts when they come in over the scanner.
Otherwise, the transmittions are usually interesting. Just tonight, I covered a barn that burned down... HUGE cloud of smoke in the area.
--BwB
Big tubes were used in radio transmitters untill relatively recently because of their ability to handle large quantities of power at high frequencies, even though most other electronics in radio transmitters were solid state except for a few large tubes in the high power high frequency section where the final radio signal is amplified for transmission off the antenna. That's all changed now...
What you are hearing is the repeater station identifying itself automatically, as it is required to do by the FCC. When a train operator uses a low-powered handie-talkie radio, that signal is picked up and re-transmitted with much higher-powered "automated relay stations" called repeaters.
Repeaters and base stations are required to transmit their ID every so often-either by voice or the International Morse Code. While I used to be able to copy code at about 15 WPM, I'm afraid it's too fast for me to copy now--I think it's about 18-20 Words per minute. A typical call sign that you will hear will typically be in the form of 3 letters and 3 numbers (i.e KCL228).
Guess I'd better listen in to W1AW a bit more often (grin).
73 de
Peter
VE3THX /W2
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
that signal is picked up and re-transmitted with much higher-powered "automated relay stations" called repeaters.
I do not think the radio repeaters rebroadcast what they recieve via the handsets. I believe the signals are retransmitted over dedicated phone lines to the control centre. This is at least how the real railroads do it. No point in hearing all the radio calls from all over the system on your little handset.
Transit uses a semi-repeater system. Mobile-base communications
are not repeatered, but base-base (e.g. Tower to Command/Control
Center) transmissions are. A landline system connects the local
repeaters. Each repeater keys-off its ID code hourly, required,
as you said, by FCC reg. Evidently it is not required that an
average ham be able to _copy_ that! I'd estimate the speed to
be about 40 wpm. The first two characters are "D E", the CW
shorthand meaning "This Is Station", followed by a 6 character
callsign. On the IND division, the call is K T A 9 2 7
I monitor MTA frequencies on my scanner and notice the beeps too. They are indeed radio repeater identifications. someone explained to me that because the allocated freq. for NYCT Subways is not on the Federal or UHF band 406-420MHZ and 450-470MHZ but rather on Hi Freq. Band 148-174MHZ they need to periodically identify themselves. By the way NYPD Transit division shares the same band as the MTA, reminders of the pre 1995 unification of the police departments of New York, While NYPD freqs. are mostly on UHF band radio with few exceptions.
My question is this, how come i only find those beeps on the following freq. BMT Train - dispatch 158.775 Dispatch - Train 161.025
IND train - dispatch 158.805 Dispatch - Train 161.505
IRT train - dispatch 158.880 Dispatch - Train 161.565
Special Events (channel 11) 155.925
and not on the other MTA frequencies such as yard or tower freqs.
Also the transit police identify themselves but not with beeps but the central dispatcher announces the radio station that is transmitting, ex. of what is being said " New Yok City Police Department Transit Division 6 KOLJ Radio time now is - - : - -
My other question is this how come most of the activities take place on the dispatch to train channels and the train operators respnd on the same frequencies, are the train to dispatch not used? ?
THanks In advance
10Seven10
Also whats up with this graff on the M trains (R42) again? AGAIN?
The NTSB investigators believe that the engineer, Steven R. Gill, 48, of Rensselaer, completely missed the Restricting aspect. The 98 passengers have filed a 4.6 million dollar class action lawsuit against Amtrak and CSX demanding 75k for each passenger (cha ching). The BLE says the engineer w/ 30 years of experiance is "Not at fault". The report goes on to say that in the moments preceding the collision, Gill had unintentionally let the train accelerate to about 58 mph because he was preoccupied with adjusting a separate power gauge and looking at daily track reports. Something's a bit dodgey here.
It does sound as if somebody is shovelling snow (or something else).
/*The NTSB investigators believe that the engineer, Steven R. Gill, 48, of Rensselaer, completely missed the Restricting aspect. */
Whoops.
/*The 98 passengers have filed a 4.6 million dollar class action lawsuit against Amtrak and CSX demanding 75k for each passenger (cha ching).*/
Hmmm...
98 * 75,000 = $7,350,000
/* The BLE says the engineer w/ 30 years of experiance is "Not at fault".*/
That sudden acceleration thing only works with Audi's....
/*The report goes on to say that in the moments preceding the collision, Gill had unintentionally let the train accelerate to about 58 mph because he was preoccupied with adjusting a separate power gauge and looking at daily track reports.*/
Weird.
/* Something's a bit dodgey here. */.
Yeah, for starters, the lawyer$ can't do math. I'm still at a loss as to how a diesel hauled Amtrak train manages to get going that fast that quickly... Those things are slugs pulling anything more than 3 cars per loco.
Maybe it's $4.6 million against Amtrak, and another $4.6 M for CSX. That would be $9.2 million, - $7.35 million would be $1.85 million for the lawyers.
Geez, those are cheap lawyers.
Out here in California, they get at least 35%......
In NY, we have rules limiting contingent fees.
In NY, we have rules limiting contingent fees.
Works on Contingency?
No,Money Down!
That's all THEY were pulling (2 units,6 cars)
You know, I don't want to go off on a rant here, but:
I'm sick and tired of politicans who continually block ANY 2nd Ave. subway proposal which doesn't run the full length of Manhattan. Considering the prohibitave costs of building ANY subway these days, one can see that holding out for this audacious plan will only lead to it's eventual demise (yet again).
The stubway has 2 main benefits:
1. It provides passangers who use the 4/5/6 trains above 59th St another method of getting to midtown, and a direct route to the West Side. This alone will relieve congestion on the East Side IRT.
2. It utilizes capacity which would normally be wasted. As it's set up now, the Broadway express serves a limited purpose in the opposing peak direction (downtown during the AM rush, uptown during the PM rush). Extending an existing line uptown into an area desperate for more subway service sounds logical to me.
Progress is made with small steps these days. The days of large scale subway projects are over. Let's build what we can.
But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. Who wants pie?
I can understand your point of view. I lobbied very hard for a full-length subway, but I want MTA to stop proposing and START DIGGING.
The good news is, though, that it looks like the current engineering requirement (CM1188) is indeed the first phase of a full-length line. And, no doubt, we will see something like the Stubway open first. So be it.
"Progress is made with small steps these days. The days of large scale subway projects are over. Let's build what we can."
That's just the problem. It's that attitude that's really stopping us. We need to change attitudes, not lower expectations.
But I appreciate your desire to get something built now. To that, I thank you and offer a hearty "Hooyah!" (from the diaphragm, after a deep breath).
As the advocate of a full four-track line on the other thread, I should clarify my position.
If the choice is between a two-track line and a no-track line, the choice is obvious: go Stubway! Just as it was when the choice was between a two-seat ride to JFK and a no-seat ride: go Airtrain!. But a one-seat ride can be retrofitted later. You can’t add 2 tracks to the 2nd Ave. (If you have THAT kind of cash, hello York Avenue line instead.)
On the one hand, we don’t get to actually make the decisions, like the policymakers do. On the other hand, we can advocate the ideal scenario, which most policymakers can’t. They have to be "realistic" given money and what not. We should be clear about what is ideal, then resign ourselves to the realistic. A good thread topic would be funding mechanisms that would usher in a Moses-like TRANSIT building era.
So Stubway-I will get built from 125th to 63rd, but with the Pelham running on it Day One with shaved Bronx platforms. Notice that the 2nd Ave. station on 125th does a huge S curve under dozens of buildings to be parallel to the existing Lex 125th station. It doesn’t make the more direct perpendicular approach under the streets. Notice that there is no 116th St. station and many other areas are skipped. (Calling Rep. Rangel to the rescue; you saved Bubba’s bacon on the office space thing, time to help out here.) No doubt they want most 6 riders to stay on board at 125th, make a quick run through the Upper East Side with only four stops (as opposed to the 6’s seven stops) then go express on Broadway. Otherwise they fear a crush at 125th as Pelhams transfer to Lex express.
Then Stubway-II will get built later, I’m guessing with diverted Qs or Ns running on it, leaving the remaining N or Q and the Pelham on the Broadway express. Probably a local 2nd Ave. as well for the length of the line, picking its way between the two outer burrough lines.
And from Day One, both I and II will be absolutely crush-loaded. People will say, "whose idiotic idea WAS it to spend years and years and billions and billions to build the only two track trunk through Manhattan?" And this site will say "told you so"... And "better than nothin."
[And from Day One, both I and II will be absolutely crush-loaded. People will say, "whose idiotic idea WAS it to spend years and years and billions and billions to build the only two track trunk through Manhattan?" And this site will say "told you so"... And "better than nothin." ]
The difference is that 125th St on 2nd Ave is going to be a terminal, much like Pelham Bay Park or Woodlawn, 2 tracks and no crush loading.
Arti
The problem is if it's a terminal, very few people are going to transfer to it unless they really, really want a seat or a less crowded train and are willing to take a little extra time to get to and from work.
The section of Second Ave. the Stubway will cover is residential, with mostly residential buildings on the side streets and adjacent avenues, so those stations will not have much business-related traffic. And then look at the route -- from 125th and Lex, the Stub will go two blocks east, 62 blocks south, seven blocks west, 21 block straight downtown and then angle over 32 blocks west-to-east before turning and going striagth downtown from 10th Street...until it S- curves at City Hall and/or drops down to the lower Canal Street station for the trip over the bridge to Brooklyn.
Why on Earth would a passenger on the 4/5/6 at 125th Street get off the IRT and get on that thing? It would be like taking the N or the R from Union Square to get to 59th Street and Lex.
I agree it will relieve the crowding from some passengers now using the IRT below 125th who will opt for the Stub, but if the 4/5/6 enter the 125th Street station from the Bronx packed to the gills, they're going to stay that way unless the Second Ave. line runs the length of Manhattan.
Correct. What is needed is more through service (no train changes).
What I get from this thread and that of the Preliminary Engineering Plans is that we are more in to fully integrating the transit system (subway, LIRR, NJT, MetroNorth) than MTA! As long as MTA has separate entities for the subway, the LIRR, and Metro North, they will not think of how to put them together in one single system -- even though that is one of the reasons the politicians gave us for MTA in the first place!
With that said, any capital improvement is welcome --- delay equals non-construction.
The current IRT is the faster way to lower Manhattan. However, thousands of people work on the West Side, near Times SQ. These riders now must ride the IRT and x-fer at the far overcrowded Grand Central station. Considering the painful overcrowding on the Lex, an alternative route will be welcomed and ridden by many.
"The problem is if it's a terminal, very few people are going to transfer to it unless they really, really want a seat or a less crowded train and are willing to take a little extra time to get to and from work."
One escalator ride and a very short walk(in a rebuilt and modernized 125 St terminal) is too much? Quit whining.
"The section of Second Ave. the Stubway will cover is residential, with mostly residential buildings on the side streets and adjacent avenues, so those stations will not have much business-related traffic. And then look at the route -- from 125th and Lex, the Stub will go two blocks east, 62 blocks south, seven blocks west, 21 block straight downtown and then angle over 32 blocks west-to-east before turning and going striagth downtown from 10th Street...until it S- curves at City Hall and/or drops down to the lower Canal Street station for the trip over the bridge to Brooklyn."
True - but the lower half (below 63rd St) will complete the picture.
One escalator ride and a very short walk(in a rebuilt and modernized 125 St terminal) is too much? Quit whining.
It's not whining. It's logic. How many people jump off the E or F at Continental to get on that nice empty R train across the platform for the ride to Manhattan? The time difference to midtown or lower Manhattan from 125th and Lex on the Stubway Q (or whatever line uses it) won't be as big as the difference between the R and the E or F from Continental, but the point is the same -- if a person wants the most direct route to the office in the morning, they'll stay on the IRT, which is what I think most people will do after they check out the new route for the first couple of weeks.
If you're going to turn the Second Ave. line west on 125th, don't do a half-assed job and just run it to Lex; run it to St. Nicholas and put stops at Lennox and Lexington so it becomes for upper Manhattan riders what the crosstown routes at 53rd, 42nd and 14th Street are to midtown riders -- a way to connect between the various north-south trunk lines that's not available at all right now.
"It's not whining. It's logic. How many people jump off the E or F at Continental to get on that nice empty R train across the platform for the ride to Manhattan?"
How many people jump off the E and F, run a block and then a staircase to get to the 6? Plenty. That is why it is whining. Enough people use an escalator to transfer from the 6 to the 4 or 5 and vice-versa. And a full-length subway, once complete, will offer new important destinations.Granted, the new station will have to be designed properly, but the transfer to a Second Av line shouldn't be any harder. And people do it every day.
"If you're going to turn the Second Ave. line west on 125th, don't do a half-assed job and just run it to Lex; run it to St. Nicholas and put stops at Lennox and Lexington so it becomes for upper Manhattan riders what the crosstown routes at 53rd, 42nd and 14th Street are to midtown riders -- a way to connect between the various north-south trunk lines that's not available at all right now."
If it is a half-assed job it's because it doesn't extend into the Bronx. Having said that, however, I also think your idea for pushing it further west across Harlem has much merit. To do that the tracks should point west along 125th St; I don't think the TA is going to build it that way, though.
Still, the TA hasn't built anything yet, and is just beginning engineering, so it's not absolutely too late. Why not put a little effort into a query to the MTA to find out what the agency's reaction is. Their answer will probably be "no," but the reasons they offer may or may not surprise you. I personally think you may learn something new. If you do write, post the answer on this site. If you think it's a stupid answer, feel free to say so and why. I will read it with interest, I assure you, and so will others.
[How many people jump off the E and F, run a block and then a staircase to get to the 6? Plenty. ]
What options do they then they have... walk! But do they?
Arti
If I were the people in Harlem and Upper Manhattan I would demand the line be extended from Lex across 125th to St. Nicholas, with transfers to the 2/3 at Lennox and 4/5/6 at 125th. That would make the Stubway immediately useful to people other than those living on the upper east side, and because of the jughandle route it would take to get downtown, I doubt the thing would be jammed before it got to the upper east side stations, even if it was extended up to 145th or 168th streets on the A or C lines.
Many people, if they were going to the East Side below 63rd St., would transfer to the IRT at 125th and Lex. But the gain in passengers there would probably be offset by the loss of those who can actually use the Stubway to go from the Upper East Side to the Rockefeller Center-Times Square area, and it would help incrase support for the project outside of just the people who live east of Third Ave. and north of 63rd Street.
...but if the 4/5/6 enter the 125th Street station from the Bronx packed to the gills,
The current load level for trains entering 125th Street Staion from the Bronx is 60% of service level. That's not packed to the gills. Look at the "E" and "F" trains in Queens, to see what "packed to the gills" or 127% load level means. :-)
"The current load level for trains entering 125th Street Staion from the Bronx is 60% of service level. That's not packed to the gills. Look at the "E" and "F" trains in Queens, to see what "packed to the gills" or 127% load level means. :-)"
You mean the 1995 load level. That is not the 2000 load level. If ridership growth has occurred at the same rate as since 1990, the load level at 125th St would be nearly 90%. Judging from the crowds I've observed on Bronx platforms in the last couple of years, I suspect the true load level closer to that than to 60%.
I said if the train was packed. The point is the Stubway doesn't go where the busiiness offices are in Manhattan without taking a roundabout route and therefore will not attract that many people to disembark at 125th Street unless they're willing to trade time for comfort.
"I said if the train was packed. The point is the Stubway doesn't go where the busiiness offices are in Manhattan without taking a roundabout route and therefore will not attract that many people to disembark at 125th Street unless they're willing to trade time for comfort."
Stephen pretends to be up to date with 1995 data. The trains are carrying a lot more people than that. And yes, the Stubway is not the ultimate answer to the problem. But it is being built with tunnels stretching straight south beyond 63rd St; clearly this will be amenable to completing the line to Whitehall St, which is what a majority of people in the Bronx and Manhattan have said they want.
("I said if the train was packed. The point is the Stubway doesn't go where the busiiness offices are in Manhattan without taking a roundabout route and therefore will not attract that many people to
disembark at 125th Street unless they're willing to trade time for comfort.")
Bronx residents would lose comfort too, because they'd be giving up a seat or a good place to stand in the middle of the car. For this to work, the Second Avenue line should really be hooked into the Pelham Bay line. Keep those Bronx residents where they are, and give them a faster ride from further out. Build a turn around for the #6 and have it just serve Manhattanites, and people transferring from other lines. That's the biggest bang for the buck whether the line stops at a stubway or goes all the way to Whitehall (or, in my preferred scenario, through Broad Street to Brooklyn).
"Bronx residents would lose comfort too, because they'd be giving up a seat or a good place to stand in the middle of the car. For this to work, the Second Avenue line should really be hooked into the Pelham Bay line. Keep those Bronx residents where they are, and give them a faster ride from further out. Build a turn around for the #6 and have it just serve Manhattanites, and people transferring from other lines. That's the biggest bang for the buck whether the line stops at a stubway or goes all the way to Whitehall (or, in my preferred scenario, through Broad Street to Brooklyn)."
I like your plan. The Brooklyn portion may yet happen. As to the Bronx, well, never say never...
[I like your plan. The Brooklyn portion may yet happen. As to the Bronx, well, never say never... ]
There's an absolute silence, i.e. noone cares, I don't think I'll live to see that. As you say that .. gets the grease :-)
Arti
I think that instead of turning it westward to serve 125/Lex, then connecting it to the Pelham line, the line should stay under 2nd all the way to the river, which it would cross in a new tunnel (this isn't a big river, for the cost of this line, it isn't much) and use the Amtrak tracks. There is room for 4-5 tracks, with Amtrak using only two, so there is plenty of room for two subway tracks. The line would then connect to the Pelham at Whitlock Avenue. The Lexington Avenue local would terminate at Hunts Point Avenue. Middle track express service would then be useless, unless it ran all the way to Pelham Bay Park or Coop City.
Another branch would continue along the ATK line and the old NYW&B ROW to replace the upper 5 to Dyre or an extension to downtown Mount Vermin (j/k).
If the subway is ever built to full-length, the original MTA plan called for building a two level subway under Water Street to allow enough capacity for 40 TPH to terminate, this is foolish. Instead of an extra level, build a Water Street line and a connection to the Nassau Street stub.
Another branch would continue along the ATK line and the old NYW&B ROW
The MTA foresaw this possibility and is busily disposing of the NYW&B ROW.
Instead of an extra level, build a Water Street line and a connection to the Nassau Street stub.
The RFQ's are out to eliminate those extra tracks on Nassau St.
Going your way! :-)
[The RFQ's are out to eliminate those extra tracks on Nassau St.]
?!?
Greater stupidity I have never heard!
"Another branch would continue along the ATK line and the old NYW&B ROW
The MTA foresaw this possibility and is busily disposing of the NYW&B ROW. "
If you put half as much effort into understanding organizational behavior as you do into your math, you might not constantly stick your foot in your mouth that way.
I'm not saying I know exactly why ROW is eliminated. But then, it's clear you don't either (but then, it's easier for you to make up something sarcastic rather than seriously examine the issue).
The RFQ's are out to eliminate those extra tracks on Nassau St.
Not at Chambers Street. I'm talking about connecting at the old Manhattan Bridge stub.
[If the subway is ever built to full-length, the original MTA plan called for building a two level subway under Water Street to allow enough capacity for 40 TPH to terminate, this is foolish. Instead of an extra level, build a Water Street line and a connection to the Nassau Street stub.]
Absolutely. Or defer the water street spur and save money by just connecting to the Nassau Street stub.
I still prefer building a new tunnel to the Bronx, taking some of Merto North's ROW above 155th St. and running and express line to the North Central Bronx (and recapture the White Plains Road line above Gun hill Road from the 2), but a Pelham link to a full-length Second Ave. subway would help East Bronx riders. But as I said, a Pelham link to the Stubway would still see a lot of people switching to the 4/5 at 125th St. because of the roundabout route downtown.
"I still prefer building a new tunnel to the Bronx, taking some of Merto North's ROW above 155th St. and running and express line to the North Central Bronx (and recapture the White Plains Road line above Gun hill Road from the 2), but a Pelham link to a full-length Second Ave. subway would help East Bronx riders. But as I said, a Pelham link to the Stubway would still see a lot of people switching to the 4/5 at 125th St. because of the roundabout route downtown."
Agreed, highly likely. The full 2nd Av route would have to be completed (or a major portion of the southern half in service) before that pattern starts to change.
Stephen pretends to be up to date with 1995 data.
I can assure you that my interest is more current. The reason I'm using this data is because it is published and available for all to corroborate. Before using it I did make personal anonymous inspections at my own cost to verify its continued validity. These inspections were made within the past year. If you have quantitative, authoritave data that contradict these numbers, please produce them for all of us to use.
Finally, just for the record the leave load data is from 1997 not 1995. :-)
1997 is still too early.
"Before using it I did make personal anonymous inspections at my own cost to verify its continued validity. These inspections were made within the past year."
Why don't you post your tables here - dates, times, point of reference, how many observers, etc?
1997 is still too early.
This does present an interesting theoretical problem that had been mentioned in an earlier post. There's always a danger in a long term project that the conditions that dictated its start may not be present at its completion. If 4 year old data is no longer valid, you had better look for a project that will be completed in much less time.
Why don't you post your tables here - dates, times, point of reference, how many observers, etc?
My study had a different purpose. I was certainly aware of this data at the time of the study and did not discern any great discrepency. I was interested in finding out why the headways were so long and to what extent dwell times were effected by the passenger loading. It became rather clear that the reason there were only 25 tph at Grand Central was that only 25 and not 30 trains left the yards. The TA hid this fact on their published schedules by arbitrarily increasing the running time between certain stations at peak time. I kept moving my observations further north to find the missing trains that never were until I hit the terminals.
One interesting sidelight. My cover was blown at 86th St. I went there to observe the morning rush hour on the Friday before the July 4th weekend. I wanted to get baseline data when crowds were low but service levels remained constant. The TA was conducting load level counts that day. The platform conductor thought that the TA was crazy for sending two counters to the same station. I had to identify myself as a hobbyist. A leave load count on that day is meaningliess. Of course, the TA can fudge the numbers as well as the interpretation. Why do you still believe their double talk on headways and safety margins?
"My study had a different purpose. I was certainly aware of this data at the time of the study and did not discern any great discrepency. I was interested in finding out why the headways were so long and to what extent dwell times were effected by the passenger loading."
So in other words you didn't take down any observations or record any data. I think that pretty much ends this line of debate.
"My cover was blown at 86th St... I went there to observe the morning rush hour on the Friday before the July 4th weekend. I wanted to get baseline data when crowds were low but service levels remained constant...I had to identify myself as a hobbyist."
The last time I checked you didn't need the TA's permission to do what you're doing. If the Straphangers can record data on train arrivals or cleanliness (and they take good notes) then so can you. There is no cover to blow, because you never needed one.
What was the TA doing taking leave load data on an atypically low volume day? There aren't many such days throughout the year. :-)
Right! If you onm the train you precieve that you are going somewhere, why give that up?
Arti
[And from Day One, both I and II will be absolutely crush-loaded. People will say, "whose idiotic idea WAS it to spend years and years and billions and billions to build the only two track trunk through Manhattan?" And this site will say "told you so"... And "better than nothin."]
Yup!
Chris, I agree 100%. First get the stubway to 72nd or 86th, whatever, for a new terminal for the Broadway express and thus make best use of the Bway exp. tracks (one Bway exp. to 2nd av., other to Queens). Once a part gets built, in my estimation, it would be more difficult to prevent more and more sections to get built.
One important thing to note is that the Manhattan Bridge repairs will be completed before any section of Second Av subway opens. The Broadway Express tracks will be in service beginning this year, and when both sidesof the bridge open a permanent service will resume. So the part of 2nd Av service using Broadway will be sharing tracks with the Q or N or whatever is running there at that time.
Wanna see a real project that hasn't moved in a while?
Access to the Region's Core
Interesting post. I bookmarked the site.
East Side Access makes a contribution, though - and we are now past EIS. The construction money for that was scheduled earlier in the 2000-2004 Capital Plan than 2nd Av, so the shovels should start digging relatively soon.
[Wanna see a real project that hasn't moved in a while?
Access to the Region's Core]
I read an article a few days ago that suggested that what with New York's political nonsense NJ access, which could be financed by the Port Authority, may happen before anything else.
That could be. The Port Authority has the muscle and mandate to get certain things done. They've done a nice job so far, given available budget, with AirTrain.
The Port Authority has the muscle and mandate to get certain things done. They've done a nice job so far, given available budget, with AirTrain.
Of course, let's not forget the fact that the Port Authority earns a lot of money from its bridges, tunnels and airports, putting it in a better financial position than the MTA. Airtrain itself is being funded by airport-user fees.
[Of course, let's not forget the fact that the Port Authority earns a lot of money from its bridges, tunnels and airports, putting it in a better financial position than the MTA. ]
Yesterdays Daily News has an article where Alexander Garvin, director of planning for NYC 2012, claims that tha whole thing including extendind 7 won't cost NYC anything, I guess we'll see that extension done, again as there's money available.
http://www.nydailynews.com/2001-02-27/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-101370.asp
Arti
"Yesterdays Daily News has an article where Alexander Garvin, director of planning for NYC 2012, claims that tha whole thing including extendind 7 won't cost NYC anything, I guess we'll see that extension done, again as there's money available."
That would be nice. I have a wait and see attitude on this.
Yes, you're right
Last time I rode the N train, it went clear over the Manhattan Bridge all day long.
OK, OK, so it's been ten years since I've been back to New York; but for how long has the N been avoiding the Manh. Br.? It used to only use the Montague Street tunnel at night time. How come the B, D, and Q still get to use it? Is there pedestrian access to that bridge? I only got to walk over the Brooklyn, 59th Street, and Queensboro in my day - they said there was a walkway but that it was closed while the bridge was being worked on.
N service via the bridge ended on 12/28/90. No Broadway trains have used those tracks since.
I'm sure that your post is music to #4 Sea Beach Fred's ears.
So the part of 2nd Av service using Broadway will be sharing tracks with the Q or N or whatever is running there at that time.
The service would be the Q, as that would be the train dangling at 57th.
I'm with you. If we demand all or nothing we'll certainly get nothing.
Just BUILD something already, MTA.
:-) Andrew
On the stupid show Futurama, Lelach was buried in the La Brea Tar Pits and bumped into "a hollow tube devoid of human life: the Los Angeles Subway!"
what makes it the boulevard of death? the people. if they stopped jaywalking they would have been alive today or a small amount of people would be dead now. the bouldevard has increased its crossing time. the people should've did what their mothers and father told them for years. cross at the green and not in between. but many do not have the common sens to do so and then run to the media to make things worse. its their fault its the blvd. of them. atleat to them its known that way.
It would be nice if people always used good sense. We wouldn't need crossing gates at RR Crossings, just lights and a bell. We wouldn't need to print DO NOT ALLOW CHILDREN TO PLACE OVER HEAD or similar phrases on plastic bags.
Of course, it would be nice if drivers on Queens Blvd. wouldn't speed...
Queens Blvd has the highest vehicular traffic volume of any non-limited access highway in the country. It is also a vital shopping street and passes through densly populated areas. The fact that it also has a high pedestrian accident rate is regrettable but not surprising.
Not every ped fatality was a jaywalker. Several were mowed down
crossing with the light in the crosswalk by red light runners.
A few eldery were trapped in the middle of the wide street, unable
to make it to the "safety island" before the lights changed. I
recall one incident a few years ago where a pedestrian was killed
waiting on the island by a driver who lost control and climbed
the curb. Increasing the crossing time provided by the traffic
controls is perhaps the most important thing the city can do.
The previous times weren't even close to Federal guidelines; you'd
have to walk at around 3.5 MPH to make it across, starting exactly
when the sign turned to WALK, before the sign reached solid
DONT WALK. I think installation of the count-down walk signs
is a good idea also.
But Mr. Bauman said it best. You have to expect a high rate of
pedestrian accidents there. You can cut it down, but you can't
eliminate it.
when the r-33 on the 7 line closes its doors, i always hear a release of air after that. do the doors rely on airpressure to open and close?
I don't think the release of air pressure has anything to do with the door operating system. You might be hearing the release of air pressure from the car's braking system.
BMTJeff
That's a pneumatic interlocking for the door safety circuit.
It was a standard feature on St. Louis-built cars for the era, but had been eliminated on most car series since in the years since. The door motors themselves are all-electric.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
You hit the nail on the head, but it's the wrong nail.
The puff of air is an electro-pneumatic interlock that is
_triggered_ by the door indication circuit (more precisely the
guard light), but its purpose is to reset a pneumatic device
known as the Variable Load Valve which measures car loading
and adjusts braking and acceleration effort accordingly. When
cars were GOH'd, this system was replaced with a modern transducer
known as the Load Sensor. Only the "Corona" 33s and 36s retained
the old VLV
In the B division, the R32's before GOH were the last car class to make that "noise" when the doors closed. Starting with the R38's, other cars were delivered "silent".
The GE R36 puff of air is practically non existant. You can still hear it on the Westinghouse cars.
In an apparent effort to out-do Mark Green and his desire to demand the magic repair of the Manhattan Bridge to maintain B/D service from DeKalb to Grand Street, Sunday's Post had an article saying that Democratic mayoral candidates Peter Vallone and Fernando Ferrer are in favor of scrapping the tolls on all New York City non-Port Authority bridges, which the post points out, would result in a loss of about $625 million in toll revenues which go towards the NYC subway system.
While I suppose it's nice to see a couple of candidates not focusing directly on the Manhattan vote, you've got to wonder what their strategy is for supplementing the missing $640 million. Higher city taxes? Aren't they already discouraging some businsses from locating in the city now. More state and federal funds? Yea, I can see Pataki and Bush going for that one, because of the strategical importance of New York City to Republican plans.......
Green's opposed to this one and he's right -- taking the tolls off would not only rob the MTA of subway and bridge maintanance funds, but would without a doubt increase the number of cars that would travel into work each day, increasing the city's pollution levels.
Vallone must have accidentally pulled this idea out of his campaign promise list from the 1998 mayoral race. As for Ferrer, I guess he's after the vote of all those Riverdale people using the Henry Hudson Bridge to go to work each day. Dumb idea.
Vallone, Ferrer call for bridge toll elimination
Perhaps Philly should impose tolls on the Schuylkill bridges (excepting I-95, of course). That would help keep out the Ethiopians, Eritreans, Koreans, and UPenn students, while allowing more Delaware County and State residents to drive into CC.
...which the post points out, would result in a loss of about $625 million in toll revenues which go towards the NYC subway system.
Reread the article again. The Post said correctly that 2/3's of the $900+ million tolls raised goes for mass transit in the city and suburbs. They did not mention that the bulk of the money goes to subsidizing the LIRR and MN operations. If the City reduced or eliminated the toll and taxed to restore NYCT funds, it would represent a net savings for City residents. The suburban rail patrons would be the chief victims. The same people who no longer pay a NYC payroll tax. If the suburbanites feel victimized, they should build their own toll bridge. :-)
Metro North and LIRR riders come mostly from counties that either skew Republican or are evenly divided. Cut the bridge tolls in 2001 and with Pataki running for re-election in 2002 do you dobt where the cuts would go first? The subways and bridge maintenance would take the hit, and the only commuter rail cuts would occur if Pataki was sure he could make it clear to suburban voters which political party was responsible for the higher fares/lower rail service.
And while a bridge toll elimination would benefit SI residents, it would put more LI and Westchester County drivers on the road to use the new free bridges, many of whom no doubt would be jumping ship (so to speak) from the trains. So taking the tolls off the Henry Hudson, Triborough, Queens Midtown, et al, would help the suburbs as well.
I was just reading the thread about how subway lines are named and I was wondering how, on some systems, the route names differ from the line named. This would apply to most commuter rail systems and subway systems where different trains share the same tracks (like DC to NYC).
For example the NJT route names are the same as the line names. For example the official name of the Main Line Route is the NJT Main Line. There are some slight differances. The Gladstone Branch is officially known as the NJT Gladstone Line.
The SEPTA R5 route to Lansdale is the SEPTA Main Line. And the R3 between Jenkintown and Neshaminy is the SEPTA Neshaminy Line (beyond that its the CSX Trenton Line). To R3 to Elwin is the SEPTA West Chester Line and the R5 to Paoli is the AMTRAK Harrisburg Line.
How are routes handled on the NYCS and the DC metro?
Umm, no. The SEPTA line which formerly ran to West Chester is today known as the R3/Media/Elwyn line.
That's the route, the official timetable line name is the SEPTA West Chester Line. Its what's on all the official line maps used by the employees and Conrail SAA.
On the DC metro, they have a somewhat similar system to NJT. The red route runs on what's called the red line, and same with the other colors. On the NYCS, however, I should remind you that it is different from NYT because of the following reason. On NJT, once the trains get out of Hoboken or Newark, each route is alone for the ride into New Jersey. However, on the NYCS, there are so many branches to a main route, and therefore, multiple trains have to run on that route. For example, they need 4 7th Ave trains, the 1/2/3/9. They need the 1 to run local and to go to the Bronx, the 9 helps the 1 with skip stop service. They need the 2 as an express, the 3 to go to 148th. In terms of how they decide on the numbers or letters, I have no clue.
The last time I rode the C train I noticed something that I had forgotten to mention at SubTalk.
About a week ago, was on a northbound C that had just pulled out of Lafayette Avenue. Not long after pulling out, I noticed another pair of tracks behind the tunnel walls on the rightside (or north) of the local tracks. Can someone tell me what line is represented by those tracks and where do they lead? My guess is that they are the tracks to either the BMT Brighton, Sea Beach, West End, or IRT Lines that would obviously be "crossed" by the Fulton Street Line as it passes under Flatbush Ave. to Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Am I right in my thinking?
BMTman
They're the G line tracks... see the Brooklyn Heights track map on this site for more information. The G is the only one crossed by the C; all the others cross above the C.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks, Chris.
I should have realized that.
The G swinging into the Hoyt-Schermerhorn area from the north...
I guess that's why I'm not called the "INDman"...;-)
BMTman
Hey, I just know how to read maps... (I didn't know the answer either but the question intrigued me so I looked it up!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If I ever change handles, I just might use that one.:-)
Those set of tracks you saw belong to the G line, and if you look carefully, you'll even get a glimpse of the Fulton Street Station.
Oddly enough, the Fulton St. Sta. on the G line and the Lafayette Ave. Sta. on the A/C line are almost back to back.
Actually, he said "North" of the Northbound side. That means to the outer ends of the ROW. The G line comes into the middle. I think that he means the local tracks that continue on to the Transit Museum after the C train leaves them to go to combine with the A. That would be the right side.
The G line comes into the middle.
At Hoyt-Schermerhorn, yes, but not when leaving Lafayette - they switch positions, with the G diving under the inbound A and C tracks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, I noticed the back-to-back configuration of the stations this morning on my A train trip.
BMTman
Last November I posted about the shell of a PATH car in Wilmington, Delaware, hoping someone would have some information. No one responded, but I've finally gotten my slides developed and have a picture of it for your viewing pleasure... maybe this will help jog someone's memory.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Perhaps it was car-jacked and stripped for parts?
Yah they got those great mag-rimmed wheels!!!
You can't see the cinder blocks though.
It's a PATH car alright. My guess is that it's a PA-3 but I really can't tell. In your slide can you see traces of the car number? It would have been between the car-end and the side door in between the two black stripes.
No, I can't... although I think there were traces visible on the car. Unfortunately, I just had the point-and-shoot rather than one of my good cameras with me that day, otherwise I could have snuck up on it with a 650mm telephoto... although maybe not, I was shooting through a chain link fence and the big lens wouldn't have fit through the opening.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does anyone know the record time to ride the entire NYCTA subway system on one fare? Also, did the record holder plan his trip using a computer to analyze the route a priori or using his knowledge of the subway system and paper and pencil (ie heuristics)? Is there a record for each case and who is the current record holder and what date and year were these records set?
I believe the record is 22 hours and a lot of change. I also believe it was set in something like 1972. You'll never be able to set the record now-a-days becuase the Molasses Transportation Authority is runs the trains so freakin slow. However, because you can buy an all day fun pass you can now leave the subway as much as you want on one fare so that might even things out. Pigs and I have a goal to ride the whole subway system in one sitting, but we need more people and more planning. Are you game for an early summer attempt?
Better do it soon before more trackage is built. In 1970, this would be easier, no Jamaica, no Stuphin on the E/J/Z. The E just goes to 179th, so you don't worry about that, the J/Z goes to 168th. That means you don't have to wait for an E, but this is 30 years ago. Also, no such thing as 63rd St. It would take longer now than whatever it did then.
Back then you had the Culver Shuttle, the Jamaica el (now replaced by the subway), Canal Street bridge line, plus the Third Avenue el in the Bronx (149th to Gun Hill Road)... might actually take less time now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am game for an attempt as a subtalk field trip. Sorry it took so long for a reply. A friend of mine wanted to know and I think I can answer his question. Thanks.
In 1988, just after Archer Av opened, a group of riders got on and rode the entire system. I remember reading that the ride took 29 hours 47 minutes, but somebody else on this site claimed 22 hours. In any event, I think Guinness called it the longest ride in history.
I assume you want to set a "speed record," that is, the shortest possible time, correct?
The current London "roving" record is 19:59:17. It is broken every year or two. It is a big deal over there, and actually a quite effective introduction of railfanning to a wide audience. Gets a lot of press. The simple rule is to pass through every station in the system. So walking between the D and the 4, or the 3 and the L, is legit.
I've been a little surprised that it hasn't caught on here...yet?
>>> The simple rule is to pass through every station in the system. <<<
This makes more sense now that there are Metrocards which allow entering and leaving the system without paying again. The single fare tour (which for obvious reasons never included the overseas colony in Richmond) started after July 1, 1948, when multiple free transfers between divisions were established. Prior to that time it was impossible to ride the whole system on one fare. Any direct comparison between a contemporary one fare ride and an early one fare ride prior to 1955 would be impossible because of the closing of the 3rd Avenue El and other physical changes in the system.
Should the one fare trip be modified to allow leaving and re-entering the system, for purity it should be limited to walking between stations rather than by taking other forms of transportation such as buses or taxis.
Tom
"The simple rule is to pass through every station in the system."
Do you have to stop or can you go by on an express?
If you're Catholic, you might get "special dispensation" but seriously, the idea is to ride every spider leg in the system and literally "pass through every station" ... if your express blows past 91st and Broadway, you were there. These things have always assumed that you were in Sallamallah's fan window and said to your little log book, "91st and broadway, CHECK!" as you blew past it.
That's why I found the "tail tracks" and "relay spurs" amusing since nobody ever bothered with those time wasters before. If you've never had the "pleasure" of a "relay" as a TA employee, the motorman has to walk the train to the other end usually and that does tend to burn up the clock. If there's two tail tracks, the relay on the other track goes first usually ...
So, as I understand the rules, the only obligation is that you visit EVERY station ... you don't even have to do "northbound AND southbound" as I understood it ... you just gotta do every one.
91st and Broadway, cute.
Peace,
ANDEE
Once upon a time, it counted. :)
The simple rule is to pass through every station in the system. So walking between the D and the 4, or the 3 and the L, is legit.
The RULE is to ride on every single ROUTE FOOT of the system. If a revenue train runs on a route you need to cover it. Using alternate means of transportation to avoid backtracks should be allowed.
Well, you could have different categories:
1) Record time to cover all routes on one fare (or, alternatively, staying inside fare control)
2) Record time with outside back-tracks, as Jersey Mike suggests
3)Employees only- all system miles including maintenance yards and tail tracks :0)
3)Employees only- all system miles including maintenance yards and tail tracks :0)
Unless you make it "All Track Miles" #3 is very hard to define.
OK - all track miles it is!
One needs to be realistic. The rules should be:
1.
Pass through, and visually observe every station on the system. Express runs are ok, as long as they offer a view (glimpse) of all local stations. This means the lower level expresses on 6th and Lex are not good for visiting the local stations.
2.
Rides must be on regular scheduled service. Oddities like the old Rockaway Round Robin and scheduled night only services are ok but diversions due to GOs. are not.
3.
Initial entry and exit can be at different locations, but the contestant must remain within fare control at all times.
4.
A record must be kept of each segment, including car number, time on and time off, station on and station off.
5.
The upper and lower levels of the Archer Av. line are considered to be one station, but Queens Plaza and Queensboro Plaza are separate and distinct. (Not a valid transfer - even with a Metrocard)
The connection from Court Sq. to Ely Av. is a valid transfer.
Likewise the one way connection off the Lex near City Hall is valid but the reverse using a Metrocard is not.
6.
The record should be established for the subway as it exists at a given time. The upcoming Manhattan Bridge Swap and full opening of 63rd St. should start a new series of records since the trackage in service changes.
7.
To register a new record with Guinness you need to document both your record and the fact that any previous shorter record was set on a different system. (Changes in the signal system only (T...I...M...E...R...S...) don't alter the base system, but permanent reroutes do (such as the B/C swap of recent times) since they can require or delete a change of trains)
8.
Time is measured from boarding (or departure from terminal) of first train to exit from last train. All other waiting time counts!
That's my take on what the rules should be...
A one fare ride in Boston is another interesting possibility - an impossibbility if you include the Green Line. Ashmont and Wonderland would have to be the terminals since you can't reverse direction at either without paying again. Despite the small size of the system this could take several hours.
Gerry
So, in order to cover the QB lines, you can ride the E or F train one way under Northern Blvd. (in fact, you should be required to, because the Northern Blvd. express track is a dedicated route by itself), but you need to ride the R (or the G, or new V line as of August) covering the local tracks under Broadway and Steinway Street, in the other direction.
There are places to hide on the green line cars. I rode around the Gov. center loop once.
>>> The RULE is to ride on every single ROUTE FOOT of the system <<<
That seems a little extreme since it would include both directions, both local and express on each line. What you are really suggesting is instead of passing through each station, you travel on the all of the subway lines between each station. The obvious place where there could be a difference would be with the Times Square Shuttle, and the express track bypass of Steinway and 46th St. on the F route. Are there others?
Tom
>>> on the all of the subway lines between each station. <<<
"lines" should be "routes".
Tom
That seems a little extreme since it would include both directions, both local and express on each line.
That's the definition of Track Miles, not Route Miles. You could also try to set the record for Line Miles ie riding every foot of every line (including all overlapping bits like the (1)(9))
Perhaps we could also set another record here for the amount of time it takes to get arrested for riding a train during relays. Not to mention the amount of money it would take to convince a TA employee to let you ride around the relay.
As I remember, the old record was set somewhere in the 60's by a troop of boy scouts, and the time was in excess of 24 hours. Would it count though if the Manny B was closed and some runs weren't available as a result? Sounds a whole lot harder to do nowadays ... without the added inducements of trespassing. :)
Nope, the old record was set in 1972, by a group of college students in 22 or 23 hours.
As I've mentioned in some of my rare previous posts, I'm on subtalk almost every day reading, but seldom post. This is a topic, however, which I feel qualified posting about.
Reading the posts on this subject, there doesn't seem to be anyone with clear memories of past Record Setting runs thru the system. I have posted some facts on this before, but I'm glad to have a chance to brag about one of my most 'famous' achievments.
Myself and 2 friends set a record for the fastest run thru the NYC transit system on June 16, 1967. Yes, 34 years ago! Here are some facts which applied back then, don't know if any of them do anymore.
There was an "Amateur New York Subway Riding Committee" back then which verified any claims to the record. You see, back then it was an 'in' thing to do! Many groups tried, and many failed (we did the first attempt we made too.) To verify the claim, you had to record the time on each train, the station, the first car# and the time off the train. It took over 6 months to verify the run, when we each received a certificate signed by Geoffry H. Arnold, Peter R. Samson and Donald W. Harold stating we had set a record of 22 hours and 39 minutes. It was dated December 22, 1967.
Again, don't know how relevant it is now, but there were 3 classes of competition, A, B and C. C class was what we did, which follows some of the suggestions posted here. You just had to pass through every station in the system, express or local. I don't remember all the details, but class B required stopping at each station and class A required stopping at opposite directions in a station if the tracks were more than 100' appart. So, class C works out to be the overall speed record.
Our record was finally broken on October 8, 1973, with a time of 21 hours and 8 1/2 minutes. This record held until 1987.
Another 'team' at the time tried to work out a schedule using a computer, but they never broke the record. Our schedule was worked out by my friend, Rob Stannish, who was/is a die hard railfan. He went work for the TA and may still do so. He did it by pouring over running times and schedules found at Jay street for many, many hours.
Hope this clears up some questions, and maybe brings up a few too. Hope Jersey Mike gives it a try again someday, I did follow his initial shot on subtalk.
Interesting info, but I suppose a pre-Chrystie Street record isn't too relevant anymore.
BTW, congradulations on having number two hundred thousand and one: A Subtalk Odyssey.
Heh. Leave it to the dieselheads to be watching the adhesion gauge. And like the millenium arguments, since the first message was #1, then that would technically be the 200,000th message, neener-neener. (grin) But seriously, matters not - I'm just glad to hang out here just the same. Everyone here's been a lot of fun.
Here's hoping Dave is still willing to do this when we get to message number 500,001. Heh.
And like the millenium arguments, since the first message was #1, then that would technically be the 200,000th message, neener-neener. (grin)
Nope, message #1 was the first message, #2 was the second. #10 was the tenth and so on. This is the 2001st year, we have had 2000 complete years since year 1 and 2001 years since year 0.
Yep ... what I was saying was that my message 200001 was the 200,000th posted ... not that it really matters, just how my pressing the button landed. But I'll bet some of the others here are gonna bust on you and me both about it.
Last record I knew of was the boy scouts who did it but now that you mention the college students, I vaguely remember that but it was also said at the time that they had a shortened time not because of better strategy but because of reroutes ... or something like that. When ya gets older, the first thing that goes on ya is the mind. I'm grateful it wasn't a vital organ. :)
No! The 200,000th was the 200,000th posted. By your logic the 1st would be the 0th posted.
Heh. OK ... let's do this for fun then ... what would be the first message? Why one of course. Add 200,000 and you have 200,001 as the 200,000th MESSAGE. Defies round numbering but then again, a lot of people welcomed in the millennium mistakenly on 01/01/2000 instead of 01/01/2001 ... but then again, "fuzzy math" is the catch-phrase of the 00's (pronounced uh-ohs) so that's OK too ... but obviously you have me confused with someone who cares ... I'm just glad to see the site GET to the 200,000 considering how close we all came to not making it there at all a couple of weeks ago. Just being here's good enough for me. :)
Congrats on hitting the number. So what did ya win? (grin)
Heh. OK ... let's do this for fun then ... what would be the first message? Why one of course. Add 200,000 and you have 200,001 as the 200,000th MESSAGE. Defies round numbering but then again, a lot of people welcomed in the millennium mistakenly on 01/01/2000 instead of 01/01/2001 ...
NO, they are completely different things. The reason the mellennium would start at 2001 is because it celebrates the passing of 1000 complete years. The year 2000 is still the 2000th year, you just haven't completed 2000 years until after dec 31. Of course this is a moot point since 1 BC was declated to be the year 0.
As I said before, by your logic post number 1 would be the 0th post. There is nothing fuzzy here, its simple counting. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10. Count them and tell me that the number 10 is not the 10th number. If you're still not convinced keep counting to 200k.
WOW!! What a Record!! I can't belive it!! 29 Hours and 47 Minutes!!!
LAMO!!
Dominick Bermudez.
I don't think they were trying to beat any times. They wanted to be the first ones to circumnavigate the subway after Archer Av opened.
Last month I mentioned to a guy at work who has expressed interest in and knowlege of New York subways that 2 SubTalkers planned to ride the whole system. He said that he did that 2 years ago. In response to my questions (he doesn't seem to volunteer much information) he said that he did it alone, it took about 33 hours, and he did it on one token.
I had an idea for a new twist. I call it subway racing. Simply, two contestants are given a starting point and a destination, but must use different routes to get from start to finish. Ahs anyone ever tried this?
Mark
I've though about it, but never tried it. Now if those two contestants happen to be T/Os, then we're really talking! :)
>>> subway racing. Simply, two contestants are given a starting point and a destination, but must use different routes to get from start to finish <<<
That sounds like an interesting railfan activity, but I think it should be a team sport with the teams starting about ten minutes apart at a location with a public clock such as GCT information booth, and having various distant intermediate points that they would have to pass through. Each team picking its own route and order to reach the intermediate points and carrying an electronic camera to take pictures of the check points. The ending point could even be the starting point with pictures of the clock at the start and the finish to determine the winners. This would be an electronic scavenger hunt with photos of such recognizable things as the Wonder Wheel in Coney Island, the World Trade Center, Hellgate Bridge, etc. as the things collected. Even moving things such as various rolling stock (an R-142, R-33, R68) could be included.
Tom
Maybe we could organize one as a SubTalk or ERA event?
I read an article recently in the Village Voice about an 'interactive game' that has a similiar theme.
It involved PC's and using handheld electronic GPS modules and the participants were to find 'hidden treasure' at various locations within NYC. Most often than not, these 'treasures' were found (small personal items), and the finder of these 'treasures' would then take one add an item of his own (could be anything from a stick of gum to a watch), and report on the website about having succesfully completed the hunt. The webmaster then goes and repeats the 'hidden teasure' game with a new stash and only gives hints via GPS Longitude and latitude indicators. Technically, there is no real 'prize', just the knowledge and satisfaction in knowing that you were able to 'nail' the location with both technology and your wits. (The game originated as a way to test the reliability of these new handheld GPS guidance devices that supposedly can get you to a specific location on the globe within 30-50 feet off the mark!).
Sounds interesting if you're young and have lots of time on your hands.
BMTman
We never found out what those bones were last weekend in the Bronx. .
Today,I heard on Newsradio 880 that the remains of a young baby were found in a garbage can behind some tenement in the Bronx. A 36 year old woman is now in custody. What the hell is going on down there??
Does anyone have any other details which area,this might be in? I had been preaching on how well the Bronx had been doing lately, this does seem a little much. Two incidents in the same week. These story are frightfully similar to many stories heard throughout the infamous and notorious 70's in the South Bronx.
Say it ain't so Joe!
>>> the remains of a young baby were found in a garbage can behind some tenement in the Bronx. <<<
Newborn babies in a dumpster are not a phenomenon unique to any one neighborhood, but occur all over the United States, particularly where sex education, birth control and abortion are strongly opposed. There was a big uproar a few years back about a girl who gave birth at her senior prom, dumped the kid and went back to dancing. If anything, this means that your news source cannot find anything more interesting to write about, and concentrates on blood and gore in the Bronx. And how is transit involved here?
Tom
Transit is definitely not involved here. It's up to someone to go off on a useless tangent because that person finds it entertaining.
>>your news source cannot find anything more interesting to write about, and concentrates on blood and gore in the Bronx.
Tom, you raise an interesting point. Isn't it possible for the Media to be biased on an issue? Favor certain things over others, or perhaps create a tabloid like environment where they need fresh material to attract the average person?
You know some of the folks refuse to end this thread. I guess it's now up to someone to say the thought police are trying to control things again. Well I said my peace. I may now be labelled as a member of the thought police.
Let me ask you something since this topic isn't apparently going to die anytime soon. Who in the hell said that these incidents don't occur? Name for me a city with a poor area where this doesn't occur. Maybe you don't keep up with the news but you know what, these things have been going on for years. Stories like this aren't new, I think you don't keep up with the news.
Mothers abandon babies for numerous reasons. Perhaps, they can't cope with that responsibility of raising an innocent life. Maybe drugs were an influence. There some of those out there who become mothers who are unfit and shouldn't be raising children. I don't know the full story of what was going on with this particular case, I'm only speculating. However, when bad times call for desperate measures, people do desperate things. THAT'S REALITY.
You can say that you've been preaching about how the Bronx has gotten better, but until you're living in the middle of the ghetto, you really won't get the full picture of what life is like on the streets. The Media can only give a person an idea of what things are like, which may or may not be accurate in accounts. Are you basing your judgements based on what a news report say, or you going out there and observing for yourself how the environement is?
I still think that things have improved somewhat around my neck of the woods, but it doesn't mean that crime is going to disappear off the face of the earth. Things happen.
Hey Stef man, relax! I love the Bronx for everthing it is. I've been following the fall and the rise for quite some times now. When something positive happens I acknowledge it with pride and when something like this happens it is duely noted. In previous post community organizations that have reshaped the South Bronx over the past 15 years like "SEBCO" have been aknowledged as a positive yet if something negative is mentionned, everyone becomes defensive.
Note the reason I bring this up is because by far the Bronx is my favorite borough especially the southern part. You're right this is off topic, yet the subway system affects "DIRECTLY" different facets of our social urban environment. This board is not only about cars, motormen, screws and wheels, it's about the spirit and freedom the subway bestows on a community, some good and some bad! Find me another website where I can speak to people who live in NYC and I won't bother you guys with this defamation of your teritory.
As for my news links, I work in radio up here in Canada, I'm a news junky looking for both the good and the bad and Newsradio 880 is a reputable organization. Some of the members on this board can vouch for that.
They work there!!!
Unfortunately, babies being found in dumpsters is not confined to The Bronx or the city in general. It's sad no matter where it occurs.
BMTman
Yes it is Doug, but my point is that for some reason everytime one of us says something negative about that borough the Bronx Battalion goes into action and demeans what we say----even if the proof is iron tight. When someone, for instance, puts the knock on South-Central LA with all the drive by shootings, I say the knocks are welcome. SCLA leaves a lot to be desire. Well so does the South Bronx. But your friends don't want to hear any of it. Well they're going to hear it. A baby in the dumpster? No excuse for it. And BTW, drive by shooting are way down in SCLA, and with the influx of Hispanic families into many of the areas there has been an upsurge in the quality of life there.
Trust me when I say that there won't be anyone in the South Bronx that's actually going to roll out the red carpet for you. If you do some exploring do it at your own risk, although I actually doubt you'll journey into any unchartered territory. You might get over to Yankee Stadium though. You can curse the Bronx Bombers to your heart's content.
Why don't you go to Arthur Av where the Italians hang out? You may or may not notice, but Little Italy is surrounded on all sides by a ghetto. That is FACT, not fiction. I wonder what makes Arthur Avenue so appealing to the Middle Class when the surrounding area is a shithole? Minorities are right around the corner from those Middle Class Italians. There was no middle class flight to the Burbs from there.
Morris Park and Throgs Neck are better suited for your taste.
I plan of visiting the South Bronx on March 31 and spend the better part of the day there. Then I will go to Arthur Avenue to eat some good Italian food. No I don't expect a red carpet and will be more than willing to admit if I'm wrong if I see something that impresses me. I know about Morris Park and will try to look that place up, either in March or if I return during the summer. Maybe you can give me a tour if you can stand it, and I'll buy you either luch or dinner. And if I am wrong I will gladly admit it and say so to your face.
While I'm at it Fred, I can hear you loud and clear. You seem to have this view that we in the South Bronx can't see what's happening in front of us. You're wrong! We see plenty of things. Since you insist on ranting and raving about this, let me do the same.
I was listening to the news about a similar case of baby abandonment in NJ. I thought to myself well that does it! Is the South Bronx the only place where these unfortunate attrocities occur? Absolutely not! And I say to you again, you declare me and others in denial of the truth? May he without sin cast the first stone. Who are you to judge me? Try and judge yourself.
I will not be judged by the likes of you. The thought police are alive and kicking, and it isn't me. It's you insisting that I need to listen to the facts.
As I said earlier I will visit the South Bronx and see for myself. If I am wrong I will admit it and say so. I will also try and talk to some ofthe people there to get a feel for the place. I mean no disrespect to you as a resident of the SB, but I kept hearing of improvement of the area but saw none of it last summer. Perhaps I was looking inthe wrong places.
Yo Fred, I like the fact that you are man enough to confront the mob and even admit that you might be wrong. You rock buddy!
Here's a little synopsis of the Bronx for you, seing that I took my car with it's Canadian plates and drove around the Bronx for two days last summer, taking pictures, analizing having the finger given to me and getting a feel of what this magical place called the SOUTH BRONX is all about. Steph and everybody else who live here can correct me when I'm wrong, because right or wrong is subject in the eye of the beholder.
Mott Haven, Port Morris are rough. 138th street is being renovated whereas a coalition of street merchands have have gotten some money and street lights along with the rest of the infrustructure has, is or will be renovated.
"THE HUB" 149th and 3rd, densely populated many people stores are coming back, it's booming again.
Yankee stadium and it's suroundings. Under the "EL" cool little bars you can walk in and have a drink. Allot of graffiti in that section, on both Jerome and Grand Concourse.
I will be honest between 149th and 161st around Courtland Ave. not much has changed. This is a very errie part of town especially when the sun goes down, it is dark and bleek. Concourse and Courtland ave. are very very dark. Avoid Beekman, St-ann's and the St.Mary's park after dark. Beekman in the early 90's was the most muderous street in all of NYC.(NYPD data)
Going up Southern Blvd. you will see what non profit community organizations like "SEBCO" have done to this area. This was the heart of the devastated South Bronx in the mid 80's. It was called "POINT ZERO" simply because nothing was left, except burnt out shells. SEBCO rebuilt and now it's back on it's feet. Check out the tenements off the Bruckner expressway there are big yellow banners on top of the buildings with the SEBCO signs on them.
Head up to East tremont, and go to Charlotte street. This was the world famous ghetto street in the late 70's early 80's. Recall Presidents Carter and Reagan, the pictures were taken there.This street had set standards at how far urban blight could go in the richest country in the world. They called it the "Big Charlotte whole". Three blocks of urban rubble all a while the poorest of the poor still living in and around here. Hollywood filmed parts of Fort Apache the Bronx here along with Escape from the Bronx, and a movie called Wolfen. Get to see this footage in these movies from 20 years ago and then go down and see what it looks like today. They now call it Charlotte Gardens. During the day Southern BLvd is busy but I'll warn you again the moment the night progresses, this street becomes very dark and bleek especially with all it's graffiti.
Hunts' Point has nothing to offer, don't even go.
Above the cross Bronx Expressway you have Tremont and Fordham, you'll like some parts because of it's Italian roots around beaumont ave. get someone to go with you because geting there might be a little tricky.
Using the subway, check out the Simpson street station. You can see parts of the notorious "Fort Apache" police precinct which was renovated and reopened about two years ago, and see why the Simpson station looks a little better than others in that area. Years ago some local residents decided they needed heat so they set the station on fire.They rebuilt it.
A million stories in the Bronx, these are just some of mine from my own experiences. Make your own and again don't compare to the Upper west side or beverly Hills CA. but what this area has looked like in the past and you will find their is magic here.
Enjoy the ride fred it should be fun.
Marty!
Marty: Thanks a lot for this "words eye tour" of the Bronx. I am printing your message for future reference. I will only be in town for the better part of three days but I hope to return either in the summer or next fall to see more of it. It could b I didn't see as much as I should have. I know I will not get the red carpet treatment but I am gutsy enough to trod onto hostile turf and take my chances. I am more than willing to be proved wrong because I don;t claim to know all of what's what. I will find out more in the near future. Thanks again.
This has nothing to do with proving wrong Fred! You are right in context to beverly Hills, the Upper west side and any other well to do neighborhood that the Bronx is a less attractive place if raising a family and street safety are issues you are looking for.
Again we should not be comparing the Bronx with any other places but the bronx. What it used to be and what it has become.It really is a place of extreme beauty with all the shit it has gone through.
Enough said on this, let's put this post to rest, Enjoy your stay in the Big Apple Fred, let me know when you come back how things went.
Marty.
Again from an ex-Bronx boy [my roots are planted in Montana but do have rpide in my heritage east and west].
I think the saddest thing where you mentioned "the richest country in the world" Charlotte st. scenario is that the mentality that caused this was allowed to fester in this country. This definitely was a big turnabout from the American dream we were told about. I still say it was brought about by political expediencies of the late 60's which turned into the horror of the 70's.
In the early 60's I occasionally rode a train from or to that area [the present 2 or 5] that was packed to standing room only and beyond with the people who followed in the footsteps of the European immigrants of two generations previous, going to the jobs that previous residents of that area had gone to: the thankless low wage ones. [Like life in rural areas still is largely]. I don't care what anybody thinks..I still blame the politics of 1965 and beyond for what happened. Maybe it wasn't as safe as some areas but that occurred among earlier immigrants who were poor in a lot of places.
OK technically these people were migrants
not immigrants but still part of the same plan. Move to NYC, Chi etc for better opportunities. But the climate and mentality changed and there went those areas.
Stef, you live in a housing project in the Bronx. If I come down to NYC would you be willing to give me a tour of the South Bronx and your neighborhood? I'm always looking to see what "I don't see" according to others. The only thing about learning is that someone has to teach you.
If you are willing to show I'm willing to watch.
Food for thought, it's your call.
I made Stef the same offer, even willing to pop for lunch or dinner, but I got no response. I think you stand a lot taller with him than I do at the moment, so he may respond favorably to your request. I don't think he'll respond to mine. I may have to trudge up there alone unless I can get a few railfanners to make the trip with me.
Marty: You ask what the hell's going on down there? Here's your answer. IT'S THE BRONX. That's all you need to know. I'm sure things have improved since the 70's since the Bronxophiles have been propagandizing for all their worth. So I suppose there's an element of truth to it. But the Bronx is the Bronx, and with the exception of a few neighborhoods a borough that is for the most parts the pits. That baby's body only confirms it. If someone tells me Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan and Staten Island have improved I can buy that, but I saw nothing, and I mean nothing, in the Bronx the last two times I was there to make me think it is anything more than an "improving hell hole". However, as I said before I will spend a good day and a half there this coming spring and see for myself. I may be pleasantly surprised, but then again, I probably won't.
While on the GCT tour on Saturday last I noticed that MNRR doesen't appear to have TVMs at GCT. Why is this? Does MNRR have any TVMs, anywhere?
Peace,
ANDEE
They are near the Chase ATM's at the west end of the main area, and at the North End enterances !!!
Geez, they certainly keep them a secret. The lines at the ticket windows were incredibly long. I observed no signs telling people about the existence of TVMs.
Peace,
ANDEE
TVM's also spotted at:
White Plains
Croton Harmon
Tarrytown (?)
Stamford (?)
At GCT there are only 4, and only 2 take ATM/Credit Card and I believe one of the two takes ATM and the other Credit Card. Very confusing when I want to buy my 10 trip off peak to New Haven at over $100.
The four you are talking about are near the Chase ATM's. I've seem a few more at the North End access.
Croton Harmon no longer has one.
But there sure were plenty of announcements about additional ticket windows opening... at the rate those announcements were coming, you would think that by noon, all the windows were open and they were building new ones to keep up with the demand!
I noticed those announcements about new ticket windows opening seemed to repeat automatically every 20 minutes and that they NEVER opened any new windows. Just before you got there I observed to Chris that they just make the announcement and never seemed to open any new windows. They seemed to alternate with the "unattended luggage will be confiscated" blurb.
Peace,
ANDEE
Before they started making the announcement, the ticket windows on that side were not used. I think it is to draw people's attention to the newly opened windows. They most likely will close the windows and stop the announcements after the first week of March. They were opened the day the March monthly pass was first available for sale.
There used to be more. There was one right where you come out of the Lex lines using the northern exit (the one with the stairs). It has since been replaced with a blank wall (with empty space behind it). There was also one on the lower level, that's gone. There used to be 5 at the main waiting area as well. I bet the missing ones were movet to cover GC North, but there are only two that I know of. One simply vanished.
I have seen MNRR TVM's at the New Haven station.
There have been a lot fo threads about how subway lines are named lately, and I had an idea of my own. How about naming subway lines after musicians? The A train would be named after Duke Ellington, obviously. I'd name the 1/9 train after Bela Bartok, since he rode it to work when he lived in the Bronx. I'd love to hear suggestions for other lines form folk more familiar with New York. Ideas?
Mark
There was/is a hip-hop/rap group named D-train so, you could say, one line is already named after musicians.
Peace,
ANDEE
What about JayZ?
Then, that makes 2
Peace,
ANDEE
Jennifer Lopez's album "On the 6" refers to the train she took from her Bronx home into Manhattan.
What's the official line on honking work diesel horns in stations? I can understand giving a repeating soft two honks while passing through stations, but the gentleman running DL908 through DeKalb yesterday was about to blow the horn off the roof. Many people were recoiling with both hands on their ears. (It was F****n lowd, dude)
Horns that loud can damage hearing when abused like that in an enclosed environment.
I'd like to choose the times, places, and methods where I degrade my own hearing, thank you very much! ;-)
Dave
Yes, those air horns are pretty powerful. In my experience the operators are usually pretty good about giving short blasts and not shattering the nervous systems of the poor souls on the platform. Years ago one sounded when the train was pretty close to me and it send a chill right through me.
Wayne
Don't feel bad about yer hearing....I live right next to the Amtrak "Surf Line" in California, and it's right next to where it passes under a very wide freeway. You'd be surprised at how many engineers just HAVE to test their horns out at 2:30 a.m. under that bridge!!! (Amtrak's K5LA horns aren't half as bad as the K3's on the BNSF freight units.....and the taxi horns on Metrolink's equipment just plain SUCK -- almost as bad as the trolley car whistles they had four years ago!)
Cool. But, can any MTA employees out there speak on any specific policy regarding signalling in stations?
Dave
Rules mandate that light trains blow their horn/whistles in a succession of short blasts when entering and leaving the stations. Diesel Electric Locomotive Equipment Horns could be feathered for light toots and ear shattering blasts. There is no guidelines as to feathering these horns, the bulletins call for the blasts. The work trains are also required to sound their horns before commencing travel and must additionally sound engine bells within work areas. Also, between the hours of 9PM and 6AM, horn use is limited to emergency use situations only when operating outdoors. Rider cars still use their original WABCO horns and lanyard valves and are more comfortable to the ear. The word whistle in the rule book covers those flagging from flat cars not equipped with air horns. These cars have a little button activated air whistle located on each end of the flat car, crane car and RFs in Garbage Trains in place. In the old days when we had R23 flat cars, this whistle was piped off the brake pipe, as the older cars don't have main reservoir. After an accident where the air bled off an unsecured work train and the flagman was unable to sound this whistle to alert trackworkers of the incoming, the TA started handing us the portable freon horn cans found at New Years Partys. The newer 600 series flat cars have a built in main reservoir for the purpose of the whistle, even when the brakes are in emergency.
Thanks for the info. Again, I fully understand the need for signalling, especially with an "extra" work movment, but some policy about "feathering" (an intangible, of course) would be nice.
Dave
I had seen a couple of trains on the B line that have four R68 cars, and four R68A cars. Interesting, eh?
Is it possible for R142 and R142A cars to run on the same train in this fashion?
They have been running mixed train of R68's for awhile. Last Tuesday 2-20-01 I operated one while training on the "B" line from 145St to Coney Istand. The train handle as if it was just like a Train of one type. As for the R142's I don't think they can run togerther because of different types of commputer programing.
Robert
I've seen R-68s and R-68As coupled together on the same train.
BMTJeff
In class today, they gave all the B div. people R-68A operation manuals, and it says they can be operated with R-68's (no other car types were mentioned.)
Operation Manual? Sounds interesting... available to the public (or railfan)
Seems to be issued to employees only. I guess these things turn up in ERA auctions years later when old
Since pedestrians are not going to change their habits, and neither are drivers, how about putting speed bumps in various locations along the Boulevard. I don't know exactly where or how many, but it would certainly cost a lot less than building pedestrian overpasses which can be used by kids to throw things off of on to traffic.
A similar proposal by Mark Green appeared as a squib in today's Times. I hope your are not offended by having your reasonable idea associated with him. :-)
No offense taken. In fact I'm flattered that Mark Green finally had something intellegent to say, LOL
Speed bumps?? On the service roads, maybe. Speed bumps (speed "humps," actually; they allow higher speeds than a "bump") on the main road would be a disaster, and the reason is in your post: drivers aren't going to change their habits. You'll have cars hitting the humps at 60 mph, losing control, and causing accidents. Such a problem is occurring with a new speed hump on Smith St in Providence, in front of the State House; cars are actually going airborne upon hitting it, despite signs and flashing lights warning of its presence.
Once a few start to wreck their cars, word will get out. There are a lot of things we can legislate, but we cannot outlaw stupidity. As long as there are those who are going to exercise their natural born right to be stupid, someone is going to get hurt sometime and someplace. Cars are dangerous at any speed (did someone already say that?) and it is impossible to eliminate accidents unless we eliminate cars. I have not read any statistics, but I'll bet more people got trampeled to death back in the days of horses and omnibusses. More probably died from the foul odor of the horse droppings.
Once a few start to wreck their cars, word will get out. There are a lot of things we can legislate, but we cannot outlaw stupidity.
Regular users of Queens Blvd will catch on (and probably use alternate routes, such as the LIE), but there will be plenty of drivers unfamiliar with the road, to whom speed humps will come as a surprise.
As long as there are those who are going to exercise their natural born right to be stupid, someone is going to get hurt sometime and someplace.
They're called "jaywalkers."
As long as there are those who are going to exercise their natural born right to be stupid, someone is going to get hurt sometime and someplace.
They're called "jaywalkers
Whatever!
[...drivers aren't going to change their habits....]
Habits are not entitlements. The "habit" of some drivers to do 60 on Queens Blvd does not change the speed limit to 60. The speed limit is still 30, and all roadway users are obligated to respect that limit.
Anyway, my understanding is that speed humps are best suited for speeds of 15 mph or less; clearly, Queens Blvd does not qualify.
A good way to enforce a speed limit of 30 would be through traffic signal progression. This is done on Northern Blvd during peak hours (westbound AM and eastbound PM) and it seems to work relatively well. It would also be quite cheap to implement, even on a trial basis.
I am sick to death of hearing about THE BLVD. OF DEATH. I've had it up to here. Why don't they talk of simalar roads in other boroughs? Ocean Pkway., in Brooklyn and The Grand Concourse in The Bronx come to mind. The deaths and injuries on these 2 roads are probably similar to the so called "Blvd of Death" yet I see no media attention focused on them.
Peace,
ANDEE
Probably becuase Queens doesn't get any respect. We have to deal with 2 airports and hundreds of thousands of commuters every day who think of Queens only as the barrier between Manhattan and Long Island and playing second fiddle to the Yankees. So since Queens always gets dumped on, why not pick on its best known street, Queens Blvd. I would not be suprised if the death rate on Ocean Pkwy. and the Grand Concourse is worse than Queens Blvd.
Brookly and the Bronx are looked at lovingly by history fans. Look at how many books there are about old Brooklyn and the Bronx. There is only 1 about Queens, "Old Queens in early pictures". Queens may have 2 million residents and 37% of the City's land mass, but we are very low on the level of respect. It makes sense that Rodney Dangerfield comes from Queens. (Richmond Hill, where he was known as Jacob Cohen).
I haven't seen this myself, but a friend just told me he was on #8660 on the 6 this afternoon. The swinging handgrips have been replaced with what sounds like R-38-style grab bars, the roof is smoother but still has the circular fan areas, and some interior panels have been replaced with stainless steel. All I can guess is that this car had an interior fire and miscellaneous spare parts were used to get it back into service. Anyone know what happened to create this hybrid?
It's not really a hybrid, I think it came back like that after GOH. It appears to be in great condition both interior and exterior, much better than any of the other R-2Xs. the grab bars are EXACTLY like the R-62s, you wouldn't believe it if you saw it. Metal cab doors, too, rare on an R-29. There are a few R-33s with smooth roofs, but that is the only car with bars instead of "straps".
I have seen metal cab doors on some other GOH cars.
BMTJeff
It's been that way for, I dunno, 10 years or so. 8660 was a
prototype for the redbird GOH program. When the contract
was let for the bulk of the cars, the TA opted for a less radical
interior redesign.
This may sound really strange, but it could have been that way for -- get this -- over 30 years!! I remember in the late 1960's when I still lived in NYC area, and used the subways daily as I was attending Cardinal Hayes H.S.a nd living out on Long Island, there was a R-29 or two that had different interior grab handles. (There were also a couple pair with different trucks; I remember 8804-8805 having trucks very similar to those under PATH cars. I also remember a pair of the R-29's or maybe the red R-33's that had the backlit advertising panels like the higher-numbered R-32's.)
As I've stated before, I live in New York during the 1990-91 academic year. Though I'd visited the city a few times before then, I didn't really get to know the subway system outside of maps my dad had brought me when I was a kid, in the 1980's. These old maps - I don't know where they are now - show an RR train, an AA train along 8th Avenue, and a K train. When I arrived in New York in August of 1990, these were all confined to the past; as had been the JFK Express. I do know that there was an "H" train out at the Rockaways, but recent maps seem to indicate that it too is gone.
Can anyone tell me what trips were possible on the AA, the K, and the RR, that would not have been possible on other routes while these were operating? If I remember, the K followed the E as an 8th Avenue local all the way down to World Trade Center; what route did it follow on uptown service? Same question goes for the other dead and gone ones.
Also, I hear talk of a soon-to-be "V" train service; what will this entail? I think I rode a shuttle train late one night in 1990 that was designated "V."
New Yorkers, clue me in here!!!
The RR is today's R train. They just eliminated the double letters. After it became the R, its Northern terminal was swapped with the N, so it now goes to 71-Continental instaed of Astoria. There was also an R (which might have also once been an "RR") in the 1980's that ran from the Nassau St line (instead of Broadway) to Bay Ridge. That's defunct today, though you could approximate it by taking the M into south Brooklyn and transfering to the R.
The K (or KK) of the 1960's and 1970's ran down 6th Ave, then through a now-unused connection (part of the Christie St. connection) to the Williamsburg Br, then down Brooklyn's Broadway elevated, using another now-unsed track connection to the Canarsie line to Rockaway Parkway.
The K of the 1980's was a different animal. It rplaced the AA when double leters were elminated. It went down Eigth Ave from 168th St as a local, ending atWorld Trade Center, together with the E. The route can be approximated by today's C, transfering somewhere along the line to an E.
:-) Andrew
The KK did not run to Rockaway Parkway. It ran in tandem with the QJ in skip-stop service along Jamaica Ave., then made all stops along Broadway-Brooklyn. When it became the K, it was cut back to Eastern Parkway. The last route to use the Broadway-Canarsie connection was the JJ.
There use to be one K from Rockaway Parkway every AM at about 7AM. The train was stored in Canarsie Yard.
Thank You
RR is now the R except the N and R switched northern terminals in 1987 (N went to 71st Ave, R to Astoria, now its the opposite).
H is now the Rockway Shuttle except the S always terminates at Broad Channel. IIRC, the TA still refers to the S as the H for picks.
JFK Express is gone. I think track capacity spelled its doom.
AA is now the C. The only difference is the AA never left Manhattan while the C does.
There were two K trains, the most recent being the same as the AA. When the double letters were phased out, there was already an A so they had to replace AA with K.
The soon to be V train will operate from 71st Avenue to 2nd Avenue/Houston Street via 53rd Street making local stops. When you rode your late night shuttle, the train must have been signed up incorrectly.
Didn't the RR's logo have white letters against a bright green background? That doesn't mesh with the current N/R colour scheme...
You say the AA is now the C, but MisterK said the AA became the K first. According to him, as the K it operated from 168th Street as an 8th Avenue local, terminating at World Trade Center with the E. But you claim that the AA is now the C, except before it was the C it "never left Manhattan." So did the AA originate its southbound trips at 207/Inwood like the current C does? And, where was its southern Manhattan terminus?
And hey, what was the difference between the K and the KK? (I never heard of no KK...)
I tell you, my "V" train shuttle of 1990/91 was NOT incorrectly signed. I remember there being service advisories for a few days in advance, saying to the effect that a special "V" shuttle service will be available...
The current color scheme of the subway lines, in which lines are colored based on their Manhattan "trunk" (for example, the A, C, and E are 8th Avenue trains and colored blue; the N & R are Broadway trains are colored yellow) was put into effect in 1979.
Before that, each individual route had its own color (although some colors were used on more than one route but I can't think of them now).
The 'old' RR was green and in 1979 when the new colors took effect, it officially become yellow, but the route remained unchanged.
The AA became the K which was merged with the C, formerly CC.
HUH?
Okay, the 8th Avenue subway had the A, AA, CC, and E. The AA ran from 168th St to the World Trade Center. In the 1980's when double letters were done away with, the AA became the K and the CC became the C. The routing didn't change, just the designation. So the K ran from 168 to WTC. In 1989 or 1990, the K was merged with the C and the C train's hours of operation expanded to all day, every day. Formerly, it had run only during rush hours.
There was an another KK, but that goes back to the 1960's and used a routing not used today (from the current J line to the 6th Avenue line). I don't know that many details about it.
I can't speak about the V train you saw/rode on. I never heard of a V train in the past, only about a route to be put into service sometime next year.
The "KK" went from 57 St- 6 Ave to Jamaica Queens on the Broadway-Brooklyn line. There was a switch after Broadway-Lafayette to Essex Street. I loved the KK - I took it from Manhattan to visit my grandma.
ScottinSF
The "AA" became the "K" in 1985, when all double letters were eliminated. The "C" replaced the "K" in December 1988, for the most part.
The C took over the 8th Ave./CPW portion of the K. During non-rush hours, the C terminated on the middle track of 145th St. lower level while during rush hours, it went to Bedford Park.
The B began running to 168th St.- Wash. Hts all day at the same time the C replaced the K.
The old KK made its debut on July 1, 1968.
I almost forgot:
The KK ran along the J line to 168th St. in Jamaica (now gone, grrrr!). The K ran only as far as Eastern Pkway, then thru the Canarsie flyover to Atlantic Ave. It was basically a truncated KK train. It met it's demise in 1976 over budgetary concerns and lack of ridership.
>>>JFK Express is gone. I think track capacity spelled its doom. <<<
Nah, low ridership was the reason.
Peace,
ANDEE
And on the weekends the Mostalgia Train had more passengers than the JFK!
Typo: Of course "Nostalgia" Train.
Remember that up until 1988, the JFK Express had the Fulton St. express tracks all to itself during middays and weekends.
[JFK Express is gone. I think track capacity spelled its doom.]
[Nah, low ridership was the reason.]
Nah, the Port Auth didn't want to kick in their portion for the cost to run it. My wife's dear friend was a regular to Con Ed from Howard Beach. They weren't packed, but there were a good amount of regulars.
When the Port Auth saw that locals vs. airport folks were using it, they withdrew their support.
Mr t__:^)
Yeah - I rode it once, but there were plenty of commuters versus travellers on the JFK Express. Other than a few rush hour trains that were relatively crowded - it always seemed to be a waste. If you saw more than 15 people on it during off hours that was a lot.
Wayne
But the Queens commuters paid less than a tourist taking it to the airport. Just the express bus fare I believe was added to the already paid token.
The JFK express did die out from the PA's lack of support, but that wasn't the only reason. Creating a stop at B'way/ENY would have meant that people from the J/Z/L lines would have been able to ride 2 stops to b'way nassau, shortening the ride. And, people from Rockaways wpuld have ridden it. But, fulton av. exp tracks couldn't support that much traffic.
Would the J/Z people pay the extra $4 to ride?
Yeah, i forgot to mention: eliminate the extra fare. (Unlikely)
I am a person from Rockaway and trust me, we definately would not have ridden the JFK Express. During the rush hours, it would make no sense to get of an "A" Express at Howard Beach, (which shares the same express trackage with the JFK) then wait for an JFK Express. The JFK would never catch the "A" train because again, they run on the same track. Plus, paying an extra $4 was out of the question.
[I am a person from Rockaway and trust me, we definately would not have ridden the JFK Express. During the rush hours, it would make no sense to get of an "A" Express at Howard Beach, (which shares the same express trackage with the JFK) then wait for an JFK Express. The JFK would never catch the "A" train because again, they run on the same track. Plus, paying an extra $4 was out of the question.]
And people with bags weren't going to take a cab to the subway, lug their bags down the stairs, take a subway with a fancy name, lug their bags to a bus, etc. It just didn't make sense, but at least it didn't cost $1.5 billion . . .
There were 2 "K" trains. The first ran from 1973 to 1976, replacing the "KK". It ran from Atlantic Ave. on the L line via the Broadway Bklyn local and Chrystie St. connection thru 6th Ave to 57th/6th, during rush hours only. The second K was merely what the old "AA" was renamed when double letters disappeared in 1985. This route was eliminated in December 1988.
ok everyone, picture two 7 trains on junction blvd. they're both express going to times sq. one is a redbird, and the other is a r-62A...........who's gonna make it first to woodside? i say da redbird!
---jonathan
I say whicever one is on the local track, no timers.
Peace,
ANDEE
I say the R 142 train that I was training on today that baby hit 59 from 96th to 72st and 72st to 42st on the 2 line. The guy after me got it to 62 from 34th to 14th street. That baby was moving. I think they need to check that one out. I one point I one of the other guys was doing about 50 coming into a station and try to brake but we flew right by it about 4 cars.
Did this same R142 happenend to FLY on the Livonia El aroud 12:15 this afternoon? This set was moving on the uphill grade between Penn Av and Junius St.
yep did you see it?
He might have been that guy in the middle ... you would be surprised where you might meet some of the nice folks from here.
There was a thread a week or two ago about the R-142s having a problem with their governers not working (the poster used the technical term).
Maybe they didn't fix the probelm like they thought, anyhow you guys & gails enjoy the rides while you can.
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, really. Happy days are here again, for now.
the A model is the one with t governers not working (the one on the 6) that was fixed. the original version (the one on the 2) can be controlled. i assume that the person on this post pushed its potential because other T.O.'s that i know kept it under 45 mph on the 2 line when going express.
Sure did. That set was flying.
Sub-Bus, be sure your read the posting titled " Two transit workers passing in the night"!! :) -Peace, Thomas
Ooooohhhh, 62 on the straightaway. Makes you want to say wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!
I don't want to be disrespectful of Redbirds but, with the numerous rust holes in the bodies, wind drag could be a factor here !
Bill "Newkirk"
Just hope a r142 doesn't crawl out from anyplace
after having taken ANOTHER wrong line-up and
hold up the race out of mere mindlessness.
I'm giving the edge to the R62A. Maybe the redbirds would have won in their heyday, but they aren't really sprinting now. Then again, who knows whether that's the trains' age or the timers.
:-) Andrew
True, but the redbird will probablt collapse into a pile of rusted steel particles after it crosses the finish line.
The Bondo would remain intact, though.:-)
It'll lose that Sprint race too.
The capital budget for 2002 is 23% larger than this years! Here's the breakdown:
20 million for new trains.
15 million for new busses.
200 million for repairs and rehab od existing equipment.
370 million for continued light rail construction.
-168.1 million toward the completion of the first phase of a trolley system in Hudson County. The money would cover costs for work carrying the system from downtown Jersey City to Hoboken.
-$124.7 million toward the second phase of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail system, extending from Hoboken to North Bergen.
-$48 million toward a light rail system being built between Camden and Trenton. Construction began last year.
-$29.2 million toward the one-mile light rail link that would connect Broad Street and Penn stations in Newark.
85 million for the Secaucas Connection.
8.7 million for Montclair Connection.
5.4 million for Newark City Subway extention.
12.3 million for general transit slush fund.
This is al fine, but do they have a handle on where the money is coming from, i.e. can you say, as the MTA did "let the kids pay for it".
I was reading that they wanted to increase the tolls on bridges, but that was knocked down.
Mr t__:^)
This is al fine, but do they have a handle on where the money is coming from, i.e. can you say, as the MTA did "let the kids pay for it".
That's not as onerous as you think. Since the kids will benefit from it, there's no reason why they shouldn't pay for part of it.
Yes, point taken, but that's not the right way to do things. The government, at many levels, has done this for years and look where it has got us ... yuck. If they can't afford it from the budget & can't get the public to sign onto a bond issue, then they shouldn't do it.
That doesn't make it right, I mean NJ has come up with a plan that makes a lot of since to expand/improve transportation (highway & mass transit), the next phase is to fund it.
On this side of the river the politations are even more nieve, i.e.
lets eliminate all the tolls from the bridges ... that will get me elected, so EYE think it must be good for NYC, it sure is NOT.
How about this one ... if elected I promise to build the 2nd Ave STUBway, then move to Wash. D.C. before the bill comes due. Oh did Hillery just say that ?
Mr t__:^)
You're right about the pols. But we the people elect them, so ultimately we have to be responsible about it.
"The government, at many levels, has done this for years and look where it has got us ... yuck"
There's both bad and good in that picture. The $33 billion, some of it borrowed, we spent rebuilding the subways since 1982 could have been used on lots of other things. We made a choice to do that, and it benefitted us in an important way. It could have benefitted us in other valid ways too, or we could have squandered it entirely, or...
So it's a mixed bag.
Re: the way projects are paid for, some now, some in the future "So it's a mixed bag."
Right you are Ron. NJ has been taking the bull by the horns & doing things to provide more mass transit service. NYC & the MTA have been nibbling at the edges for years ... how about ANOTHER study for the 2nd Ave STUBway ... yuck !
Mr t__:^)
EMD awarded Alstom a contract to build 23 F59's at the former Eria Lackawana Hornell Car Shop. They will be built from EMD supplied kits and when completed the trains will be used for California Service.
WOO HOO! Subtalk has reached 200,000 posts! Its almost doubled its size in only 12-14 months. That's some feat considering it took about 4 years to get the first 100,000 posts.
Nice one, five messages at once. Watch out, come 300,000. Ah well, 200003 is close to my school ID number anyway... I wonder how many people held their posts until the magic number 199999?
Nah, he didn't cheat. He took a gamble and won. If you notice SELKIRK came within 20 seconds of screwing mike out of it.
Peace,
ANDEE
If you notice SELKIRK came within 20 seconds of screwing mike out of it.
Not necessarily. He would have had to slip his post between my 4th and 5th post. Had I been much later Selkirk would have probably been 19999# and my 200,000th post would have been 200,001 with my NJT Budget post being 200,000.
>>> He would have had to slip his post between my 4th and 5th post <<<
But were your fourth and fifth posts (199998, and 199999) written in real time or pulled from an inventory of pre-written items and posted one after another?
Tom
I hade 4 pre-written posts lined up. Then message 199995 popped up (I was reloading every 20 seconds) I saw I could respond to it so I tapped out a message and then posted all 5 messaes in quick sucession, the 200,000th post post being the last.
Your prize for having the 200,000th post is that you get to buy a round of drinks (soft or otherwise) for all the other Subtalkers :-)
That's even better than my 30 cent prize for changing my name!
Which is exactly how I got 100,000. I pissed many people off....LOL.
Not quite 4 years...
Oldest post I have - Mon Jun 16 21:30:37 1997
(from webboard)
WebBBS 1st post - Thu Feb 19 21:21:33 1998
WebBBS 100,000th post - Mon Feb 28 20:04:31 2000 (2 yrs 9 days)
WebBBS 200,000th post - Mon Feb 26 16:42:07 2001 (364 days, remember
2000 was a leap year)
I never liked base 10 anyway
: )
I believe I am, as the former ChrisR16, the proud poster of post #100,000. IIRC, it was an attack on the utter slowness of the hippos. How appropriate....LOL.
You are.
It's obvious here that February is a special month for Subtalk. We should expect post 500000 in February 2004. If Subtalk continues to gow, then 2003.
BTW, would Subtalk crash at message 2,147,483,647 or 4,294,967,295 or not at all?
The 2nd Ave. line should be finished by then. Knock on wood.
All your bases are belong to us.
Zig for great justice.
You're assuming you're dealing with int message_count. Dave might have has the foresight to store message_count as a long, which in todays computers is represented with 64 bits that would translate to 1.844674407e19 unsigned integers. So maybe an off topic elevator post by heypaul III will be what sends SubTalk over the edge.
Usually when the number is too large for the bit thing, it goes to negative. Because the first binary digit, 1 or 0, represents the sign. So the next number would be -2,147,483,647. After it goes back down to -1, it starts back at 0 and the loop continues.
Congratulations on the 200,000th post. I was hoping to post the 200,000th message but was unable to because I was busy.
BMTJeff
I just looked in the archives and it was Chris R-16 who posted the 100,000 message on Monday February 28, 2000. Chris R-16 now goes be the name of Chris R27-30.
BMTJeff
I think I am the first SubTalker to sucessfully "call" a milestone post. Mr. 150,000 missed it and Chris had no clue he got the magic #100,000 when he posted it.
The is another "SubTalk" who made a milestone ppst. He goes by the handle of "heypaul". He posted the 180,180 message.
BMTJeff
>>> Chris had no clue he got the magic #100,000 when he posted it. <<<
How strange, a Sub Talker more interested in the content of a post rather than what order it was posted.
Tom
heypaul called 180180
"heypaul" called post No. 180,180 right on the money. I believe he posted that message sometime in December.
BMTJeff
December 27, my mother's birthday :). Here it is!
Hank and Joe V should get some recognition for posting #199991 and 200002, respectively; the last palindromes for a while :).
I agree with you upon that statement.
BMTJeff
In retrospect, we'll probably hit 201102 in a couple of days... I guess that's a while in SubTalk time :)
It would have taken MUCH longer to reach 200,000 if everybody had stayed ON-TOPIC!!
:-)
Are they still just that, plans? Or have they committed to building something yet? If some plans are committed, which will happen first, LIRR to GCT, NJT to GCT, or 2nd ave subway?
Access to the Region's Core shows that NJT is still planning, but that site hasn't been updated in a while (LIRR dual mode service and Acela talked about in future tense).
And, is this the 200001th post?
Nope, 200,003.
All are plans right now. Anyone's guess what the order will be.
D'Amato got LIRR to GCT ("ESA"), which has wider political support, first in line. As a City project, 2nd Ave. ("MESA") is number 2 right now. No enviro work has been done on NJT to GCT ("ARC") yet.
However, the MTA projects don't have any money beyond keeping the consultants alive. The bond election failed, among other complications. Wouldn't be surprised to see ARC, a bistate project, move forward faster with an infusion of Port Authority money. Say what you will about their Airtrain, but it is under construction. Rumor is that ex-Rep. Franks from NJ will head the Federal Transit Administration, which wouldn't hurt it either.
My guess is that we haven't heard from ARC because all the studies are being integrated. The recent proposal for extending the #7, MNRR and LIRR to a new west side Jets/Olympic Stadium/expanded Javits impacts all of this, and could move to the head of the pack. Also, there is another long-term study in the same area looking at extending the commuter lines to downtown under the West St. ("LMAS"). One-seat ride from Wall St. to Washington?
That West Street study sounds interesting
Of course, the chance they'll actually do it is, well . . . which is particularly silly considering that the freight line still runs to below 14th Street.
PLEASE DAVE, DON'T THROW ME OFF SUBTALK FOR BRINGING THIS TOPIC UP AGAIN !!!!!
Finally - let's put the controversy to rest once and for all. A private auditing firm hired by the Miami Herald has determined that had all of the 'Supreme-Court Halted' recounts continued to their ultimate conclusion, al gore would have gained just 49 voted and would have still lost the state and the election.End of story....
Now as to the on-topic comment, I was on the Bronx River parkway about 6:30 AM this morning. I was amazed to see the R-142s (or R-142As) stacked up in Unionport Yard. Couldn't help thinking that Unionport Yd. looked like a Car dealer's lot full of unsold Yugos.
(DISCLAIMER: THE ABOVE COMMENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY FEELINGS ABOUT THE CARS IN QUESTION. MY COMMENT ONLY REFLECTS MY COMICAL IMPRESSION OF THE SIGHT.)
Now if they were stacked like CORDWOOD, we'd have Salaamallah in heaven. :)
Did they take into account the disputed ballotts that would habe been decided using the "voter intent" standard in use by 33 states including Flordia? Or did they just recount the same old non-disputed ballots again?
"BDO Seidman reported that 4,892 of 10,646 undervote ballots in Miami-Dade had no mark whatsoever. It found that 1,555 ballots had some indication the voter wanted Gore and 1,506 indicated Bush. The remainder were either marked, but not on a candidate's name, or were for other candidates."
Source: USA Today, 2/26/01, Page 1A:
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20010226/3094344s.htm
Yes, the recount included the hanging chads and the dimpled ones.
Yes, Unionport is almost packed to the gills. There is one R142A set at Unionport that I know of. Ill look out for it tonight. The rest are R142's. I doubt these trains were ever track tested, much less put into passenger service. They still need work to be done on the the inside before they can go out.
Here is what USA Today had to say (at http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2001-02-25-recount.htm) about this "story":
Former vice president Al Gore would not have picked up many new votes in Miami-Dade County — and might have lost ground in the county — if the hand count of ballots that he requested had been completed, according to an independent study done for USA TODAY, The Miami Herald and Knight Ridder Newspapers. Gore would have had a net gain of 49 votes if the most-lenient standard — counting even faintly dimpled chads — had been used, the study found. If the standard had been more stringent, George W. Bush probably would have gained votes.
Note that it refers only to the votes in Miami-Dade County and not to the statewide vote. Other studies indicate that Gore probaby would have won a statewide recount. But people will probaby be arguing about who the "real" winner was in the 2000 election even after W's term is over.
Now as to the on-topic comment, I was on the Bronx River parkway about 6:30 AM this morning. I was amazed to see the R-142s (or R-142As) stacked up in Unionport Yard. Couldn't help thinking that Unionport Yd. looked like a Car dealer's lot full of unsold Yugos.
(DISCLAIMER: THE ABOVE COMMENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY FEELINGS ABOUT THE CARS IN QUESTION. MY COMMENT ONLY REFLECTS MY COMICAL IMPRESSION OF THE SIGHT.)
Now, if there'd been a huge sign above the yard reading "BAD CREDIT - NO PROBLEM!", the auto-dealer analogy would've been complete!
The following additonal GE R-33s from the 4 are reported to be in service on the 6 as of February 23:
9230/31, 9242/43, 9274-9277, 9300/01
Does anyone know if these are additional cars to the 16 observed since January 31: 9222/23, 9226/27, 9238/39, 9248-51, 9268/69, 9278/79, 9292/93,
or are they being rotated in & out?
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I heard something on the News eary this Month about the PATH Fares was going up to $2.00. Then next day PA of NY&NJ says that the PATH fares are Going up to $1.50 instead of $2.00. So the PATH fare is Going up to $1.50.This will start Next Month.
Any comments?
Dominick Bermudez
With many transit systems around the country having higher fares, I'd say PATH going to $1.50 is STILL a bargain.
BART in San Francisco charges by the mile (or is it -- by the foot?). WMATA in DC also does that. San Diego Trolley does. The buses in San Diego have been $1.75 for ages now.
Bargains? San Francisco Muni -- a buck for any ride, with free transfers good for at least two hours (and usually up to four), and good to go anywhere including back to where you came from (though it says otherwise on the transfer, there's no way to tell if you do).
Your topic is a day late and $1 short. Its already been discussed ad nasium.
Stock up on 10, 20, and 40 trip quick cards. They may have a 30 day limit after a fare hike though...
I was thinking about that, will they still honor the old Quickcards? I have been saying this to all my friends and it sounded like it would work. Has the PA put out anything regarding this?
Thanks
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
I asked PATH the same question and did not get a reply.
Also- I found out how they'll work the senior citizen fare:
you have to apply for a SFC- senior fare card. You'll insert the card into the cash turnstile which will then accept $1.00 as payment.
I predict this wont last long-- too complicated. You have to insert the card and then pay cash. Why cant they just allow them to buy a quick card for the reduced price if the show the card to a merchant or a mail account.
I also predict widespread fraud-- the rules say only the person named on the card which will have a photo on the card. I believe there will be selling of swipes just like the MetroCard." Give me 25 cents and It will only cost $1"
Does 1/2 fare Senior/Disabled Metrocard have a twist between Pay-Per and Unlimited? Does it have something to the effect of an 18 minute rule, even though it is pay-per ride?
And as you were saying about fraud if you insert your card that many times PATH is small enough where they would catch you and arrest you, besides if you applied for that card they have all of your info (name address etc.)
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
PATH has no unlimited cards-- either full or reduced fare.
Now for the subway-- if you have a RFM (Reduced Fare MetroCard) you can have up to two time periods on the card in addition to money. You would tell the s/a to add a week (or a month) to the card. The card would use up the money first (unless there is time already running[let's say you added a week yesterday and today you add $10.]) When you check the card it would tell you the active time period and would not show the second time until it is activated by use.
I know PATH has no unlimited ride cards, but I don't think the SFC will have any restrictions like an 18 minute rule or the like. What I was saying is that if you stand there and do the swipe people on that they would catch you because the system is small.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
PATH has no unlimited ride cards, but they do (actually, used to) have a "monthly" card (46 trips for price of 40 except all unused rides expire at month's end) only available from newsstands and through NJ Transit's Mail-Tik program.
And they do have some mechanism in place to prevent selling swipes. If you try the display says "PASS BACK" and you don't unlock the turnstile.
They haver a new sign on the turnstiles at Newark- Fare Evaders will be arrested.
It remains to be seens if that is just talk. They have big signs and pictures for no eating, drinking, smoking and they eat, drink, smoke on the train and stations- and right in front of PATH Police!
I am seriously considering building my own model railroad layout. I've operated one of my friend's father's layouts a long while back. Ever since then I've always wanted my own. I believe that layout was in N-scale, but I can't really remember. Anyway, my main decision right now is to go with N or HO. I'm leaning more towards N due to my somewhat small availablility of space, and also because I'm almost sure this is the scale that my friend's father's layout was. I've read lots of stuff about wiring but I find myself not understanding much of it. I do have a decent grasp of electronics, wiring, soldering, etc. and I'm more than willing to learn new things.
I have not in the last week of searching been able to find a picture, graphic or whatever comparing N-scale to HO-scale. If someone could provider such a thing or direct me to some place where such a things exists, please let me know.
These are my questions:
Who here has a model railroad layout?
What scale is it?
Do you wish you had done it in another scale?
What you feel the benefits of the scale you chose is?
Does your layout incorporate DCC?
What's are the basic shape or dimenions of your layout?
Do you have a favorite hobby shop or do you primarily purchase components online?
If you could put a price tag on your layout, what would it be? (including manual labor if you feel that is necessary)
How much do you estimate the cost was for all of the components?
Would it be possible for me to come over, check out your layout and maybe have you answer a few questions and show me some wiring techniques, etc?
I believe these are some good questions to find our where I should get started. I realize there a books out there that cover these topics, I'm interesting in getting some real opinions from those who own and operate layouts.
I have listed my model railroad as of my incentives to quit smoking, since I hear it's good to have a list of things written down to remind you why you're going through hell to quit :) I plan on using the estimated $1755 I spent on cigarettes ever year to contribute to funding my railroad :)
Thanks for whatever information you can provide me.
Shawn.
Model railroading is a good incentive to "kick the habit".
Since I'm currently into static displays of model rapid transit -- but hope to get back into running 'em -- I'm not in a position to give you detailed advice.
However, I know of four gentlemen (?) here on this site are well versed in various aspects of this hobby: bigedirtman1, Train Dude, Frank Gatanza, and Karl B.
Hopefully, they'll chime in here and give you some pointers.
Good luck Shawn.
Doug
***Who here has a model railroad layout?
*I* do. :-)
***What scale is it?
N-scale
***Do you wish you had done it in another scale?
Yes. I'm getting old, and my vision makes working with N-scale a tad difficult. (I am 50....) Having been in HO previously, I would probably enjoy being in that scale again, but it takes up so much room compared to N-scale.
***What you feel the benefits of the scale you chose is?
Smaller scale makes more possible in less room. I'm an apartment dweller....
***Does your layout incorporate DCC?
No.
***What's are the basic shape or dimenions of your layout?
Rectangular, 4' x 7'
***Do you have a favorite hobby shop or do you primarily purchase components online?
I use a couple local hobby shops plus one not so local. I do not normally purchase stuff online, but have found a couple bargains at eBay auctions.
***If you could put a price tag on your layout, what would it be? (including manual labor if you feel that is necessary)
Seriously, I don't know where to begin to start on pricing things. While one could add the track components, electrical components, etc., up the labor probably couldn't be counted.
***How much do you estimate the cost was for all of the components?
Ballpark guess....$2,000
***Would it be possible for me to come over, check out your layout and maybe have you answer a few questions and show me some wiring techniques, etc?
Yeah, just hop on United Airlines to SNA (I'll let you guess which airport that is) and three miles before touchdown, bail out on the left side of the plane. Be careful though, that 600' drop can be a tad rough but you might try to land in the pool in the apartment complex!!
Seriously, if you have any questions regarding N-scale, feel free to get in touch.
And good luck on trying to kick the smoking habit, you will feel much better!! You'll save a lot of money, and if you invest it in a model railroad, you will have something to show for it. I'm lucky in that my wife doesn't mind what I spend on the model railroad, as she says at least I spent it on something that is there to see.
Who here has a model railroad layout?
I'm currently building a fairly extensive O gauge System in my basement.
What scale is it?
O gauge
Do you wish you had done it in another scale?
I had N gauge for 30 years but I bought a set of MTH Subway cars and after running them, I put my entire N scale collection up for sale on eBay.
What you feel the benefits of the scale you chose is?
Much less realism but much more fun.
Does your layout incorporate DCC?
No. I have a lionel ZW (275 watts) and 2 MRC Dual o27 packs (270 watts each)
What's are the basic shape or dimenions of your layout?
My layout is in the shape of the greek letter pi. 14' wide at the widest by roughly 20' long with a 28" wide aisle spanned by two bridges (So far)
The first three levels are my subway. Roughly 3 scale miles of track. The class I RR is just in the planning stages but will likely be a simple two track loop and a yard over and around the subway layout.
Do you have a favorite hobby shop or do you primarily purchase components online?
Yes to both
If you could put a price tag on your layout, what would it be? (including manual labor if you feel that is necessary)
I say that including the rolling stock, track and lumber we're looking at $8k.(everything I got for my N scale collection and then some) My wife thinks it's about 5k.
How much do you estimate the cost was for all of the components?
See above. I haven't figured labor costs.
Would it be possible for me to come over, check out your layout and maybe have you answer a few questions and show me some wiring techniques, etc?
When it's finished I'd consider guests. Until then, I'll be scanning photos for those interested.
Three levels of O-gauge subway? Please, do post pictures!
[The first three levels are my subway.]
Uh, Dude, would one of those levels happen to incorporate an O scale model of the Franklin Shuttle, by chance??
:-)
BMTman
I knew you'd ask.:-)
I wonder if there's a nice express run at some point.
Franklin Shuttle.....sloooowly I turn....
Not exactly. I've based my railroad on no prototype. Diagramaticly it's just a very large dogbone. The loops at either end overlap each other under what will be the city. The mainline loops over itself at what is called the "Broadway Wye Junction" where the normal route starts as the inner tracks, crosses the hells gate bridge, goes into a tunnel and emerges as the outer two tracks. The 4 tracks run parallel over an El structure. While no train has yet traversed the entire route from the City Hall Loop to the Nassau loop, there is a single track branch that runs roughly 3/4 scale mile into a loop between the two previously mentioned loops. I designed my RR this way because i wanted to simulate busy rapid transit traffic but also wanted to be able to operate multiple trains by myself. Regular terminals with diamond X'overs would take more hands than I currently have. Since none of my loops will be visible, it will simulate the same operation. As for a long express run, only one station is visible. If you ignore that one, it'll take 4-5 minutes for a train to cover the entire Main Line route at prototypical speed.
I've got X's at the two terminals on my desk ... and it's REAL easy. Just wire up the switches so that ALL FOUR are pulsed together in either normal or diverging (all four switch at once) since you can't really have more than one train on a crossover at a time ANYWAY without having to send out the crane car and a sidewinder anyhoo. :)
First off, as a physician, I want to congratulate you for kicking your habit. May you have many happy and healthy years; may your food taste better and others find your breath sweeter. The ICU docs and their ventilators don't need your business, and you can't operate a layout in the ICU anyway.
Now:
What's your realistic budget like (I assume not all your cigarette money will go automatically to trains)?
N-gauge is very cute. Youcan create a whole little world in only a small space. But I'd keep little kids away from these trains - the chance of breakage is high.
HO, which is 1/85 scale, is a nice compromise between O and N. HO stands for "Half-O" if I recall correctly.
Marcklin in HO or N gauge is very expensive but extremely high in quality. One other poster has described it as watchmaker quality. The overhead catenary for electric trains really carries a current and the trains really use it. Details are exquisite on their trains. They have, naturally, a lot of European stuff. Not something you want little kids who break things to be close to, though - replacement costs for things will run into the hundreds easily.
Tyco (are still around?) is a toy. Bachmann HO trains look good and are inexpensive but suffer from inferior workmanship - more than one dealer has told me he wouldn't go near them. Of course, on a budget, and with gentle handling, you can put togetherc a nice layout.
Athearn trains are also reasonably priced (prices run higher than Bachmann) but the quality is much better than Bachmann. I am working on a project and bought a locomotive (powered) for $72 and dummy units for $27 each.
Websites: www.bachmannindustries.com, www.athearn.com
Themes: Think about the themes you like to display. Historical time periods? Passenger vs. freight?
Assuming from your tag that you are a New Yorker, there is a great model train store on Sunrise Highway (near Rockville Center??), LI that you can check out. Can't remember the name right now - check a Nassau County phone directory.
Anyway, I've rambled on long enough. Someone else' turn. Good luck. Live long and prosper.
The store is trainworld/trainland and is in Lynbrook. Their other store is in Brooklyn at McDonald Av and Ditmas, directly, and I mean directly, under the F train. They carry all of the major producers at the lowest prices.
The other store I go to is the Red Caboose, on 45th betw 5th and 6th Ave in Manh. The owner is a bit of a character, and can be fairly rude, but I've never had a problem with him. He carries a lot of transit stuff such as HO scale subway cars that no one else seems to have. More expensive than Trainland.
In answer to some other questions, I have HO on a small 4x8 layout, with more cars than fit. I also have DCC. It used to be an 18x5x18 L shaped layout, until the kids wanted a more generic playroom.
On a budget, I would go for Athearn, with Atlas track (HO, its the only scale I know). For a slight bump up, look at Proto2000 locos. They run much smoother. If you plan on running more than one train at a time, go with DCC from the start. I could never make block control work, DCC does away with all of that. This of course will jack up the price considerably.
Yeah, the good ol' Red Caboose. Can you say 'rip-scam'?
They get loads of business from unsuspecting tourists with mucho bucks, but the seasoned modeler of rapid transit knows their game.
Let the buyer beware...
BMTman
>>>Yeah, the good ol' Red Caboose. Can you say 'rip-scam'?
They get loads of business from unsuspecting tourists with mucho bucks, but the seasoned modeler of rapid transit knows
their game.
BMTman: Red Caboose is also apparently a very horrible place to work. A friend worked there and believe me, if you thought the owner was rude to the customers...
-cordially,
turnstiles
I don't want to even get started on this one! The current owner is a desecration to the memory of Carmen Webster and Model Railroad Equipment Corporation, one of the truly GREAT hobby shops ever. Alan and his cats should be taken out back and flogged with strips of cork roadbed!
Easy on the corporal punishment. In fact, let's back off a little on this thread so inappropriate (and lgally troublesome) things don't show up that we would have wanted to take back.
Thanks for the info.
At Cappeli Hobbies in Philadelphia (313 Market Street, between 3rd and 4th Streets) I've seen some reasonable-looking unpowered models of BART and Washington Metrorail subway cars. The proprietor claims no one has ever asked him for powered models.
>>>First off, as a physician, I want to congratulate you for kicking your habit. May you have many happy and healthy years; may
your food taste better and others find your breath sweeter...
Ron: You have no idea how happy I am to hear that a practicing physician can be an active railfan, and judging by your previous posts, a usually moderate and restrained voice on this site.
On a diferent note, I most likely lost a grandfather to smoking, which vastly increases your coronary heart disease risk. He died of renal complications post-CABG (triple!!). I say "most likely" because I did not know him very well and he had no other (known) risk factor for heart disease.
-cordially,
turnstiles
turnstiles
Golf on Wednesdays was never my thing...:0)
My father kicked the habit for good in June of 1962; I still remember when he smoked, and I was 5 1/2 when he quit. He'll be the first to tell you it wasn't easy, but he's still with us today. 'Nuff said. He's doing very well after his quadruple bypass operation in December.
I'm a Flyer man myself, although I currently don't have an operating layout. A hybrid New Haven/NYC subway setup is what I have in mind.
Plusses: A. C. Gilbert stressed scale realism in his trains, and for the most part American Flyer follows this to the letter. It was only toward the end of the company that quality and realism went down the tubes. Lionel has picked up where Gilbert left off. IMHO, Flyer S gauge is the just the right size and looks realistic, not toy-like, and the trains run on two-rail track. My mother knew I wouldn't go for 3-rail track when my folks bought me my first Flyer set for my fifth birthday.:-)
Minuses: $$$, in a nutshell. Flyer is not cheap, and really never was. Gilbert stressed quality and it doesn't come cheaply. Prices for Gilbert stuff went through the roof during the 90s, and the Lionel stuff is geared toward the collector, not the operator. Plus the fact neither Gilbert nor American Models ever came out with any rapid transit rolling stock in S. Anything that's out there is scratchbuilt. Another potential minus is a rather limited selection of motive power, at least as far as diesels go. Gilbert offered the Alco PA and PB units, as well as GP-7 and Baldwin diesels. Not to mention my personal favorite, the NH Electric. They had an F-9, but it was toylike and not to scale at all. That's it. Lionel has offered additional switchers; don't remember which ones. They also offered a dining car in their passenger sets, including a vista dome diner in Union Pacific livery.
As a lifetime American Flyer fan, and when I had Flyer and Lionel both and had to reduce..I kept the Flyer because of my attachment to it. But if I had to give the award for the best quality model/toy train ever built,AND durability..I'd have to give Lionel the award; that is for the period of1939-1952 or so. They started to cheapen things after 52 except for the top of the line, and Flyer cut a few corners too along with some improvements in that period. I won' waste space here by going into details.
Flyer's diesels were actually quite poor, their steam was great, except for the crummy drivers (the sandwich style construction was prone to separate. More realistic yes, a long story..on the other hand Lionel's details were just as good even if 44 foot coaches were not for real, actually Flyers' were about 64-67 feet but that's because of the tinplate curves.
I worked on all of them once..even Marklin, but as a mechanic rate Lionel tops. But I still love Flyer. Modern times? For a price/quality ratio I give Athearn top billing.
Athearn trains are also reasonably priced (prices run higher than Bachmann) but the quality is much better than Bachmann. I am working on a project and bought a locomotive (powered) for $72 and dummy units for $27 each.
I completely agree. I haven't done any model railroading for 5-6 years, but I remember being very happy with Athearn; excellent quality and detail at a good price. They must have gone up in price over the past couple of years, though; the powered Amtrak F7A sitting on my desk at work only cost $24 in 1992 or so :). Most of my freight cars were Bachmann; decent stuff for a budget.
HO is the way to go, IMO. O takes up too much space for me, and N is too small and delicate. Ever seen a Z scale set :)?
Another consideration is what type of track to use; IIRC, steel track is worthless, brass conducts well, for a budget (but the rails are the wrong color, obviously), and nickel is the good (and expensive) stuff. But I never made it past the novice stage, so someone can probably correct me or at least elaborate.
They [Athearn] must have gone up in price over the past couple of years, though...
Considerably. When Irv died the business came very close to collapse because he had been running it at the break-even point, using old, worn dies and several-generations-old painting techniques. The new proprietors, naturally, wanted to make a profit, and in order to justify a price increase they also raised the quality, which made the price increase larger than it otherwise would have been. It seems to have been a good move for Athearn, however, since the owners were savvy enough to keep Athearn priced below the competition. They also recognized that Athearn's workhorse engine, the F unit, was no longer recognizable to the younger generation, so they began production of what the kids were seeing. At the hobby shop I'm involved with, sales of the Athearn F have dropped considerably over the past five or six years, but sales of Athearn products in general are up. We stock very little Bachmann (Spectrum series and a couple of Plus products only) because Athearn and MDC kits are still the way to go for cheap, reliable cars and engines.
As for track: in N scale I use Peco - costs more but is well worth it. Micro Engineering puts out a nice line as well but their turnouts aren't as nice as those from Peco. And Atlas N scale track, for all its popularity, stinks. Gauge problems, switch problems, you name it, they've got it. In HO, however, their stuff is great. Go figure. Peco is still the best in HO too, but the Atlas is a close second.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"As for track: in N scale I use Peco"
When I was planning my N scale empire, I purchased a lot of Shinohara track. They have (had) a tremendous selection of pre-assembled units such as yard ladders and diamond X-overs. I did like the looks of the Peco Flex track. They make track with both wooden and concrete yies in all gauges.
Shinohara is good stuff too - better than Atlas - but its availability is erratic and, for the money, the flex track isn't all that outstanding. Micro Engineering probably looks the best for wood tie track, Peco for concrete, but Peco's turnouts are so far ahead of everyone else... there's no competition. (Wish they made specialwork and switches with concrete ties, but they don't...)
Like Atlas, Shinohara does better in HO than in N, but even in HO many of the same problems exist.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Who here has a model railroad layout?
I build modular sections.
What scale is it?
N - built to Ntrak modular standards.
Do you wish you had done it in another scale?
No.
What you feel the benefits of the scale you chose is?
Size, and the convenience of the modular standards.
Does your layout incorporate DCC?
DCC is becoming more common at Ntrak shows. It can be activated on a per-track basis so sometimes one track (usually the blue line, used for switching) will be DCC while the other two are not.
What's are the basic shape or dimenions of your layout?
A standard Ntrak section is 2' x 4'. Length must be in multiples of 2' (except for spacers used when mixing 3' and 4' corners); depth is either 2', 2'6" or 3'.
Do you have a favorite hobby shop or do you primarily purchase components online?
I own one. (I am a partner in a hobby shop in North Carolina. When I lived there full time I was very active in the shop, although I had a full time job elsewhere; now that I am primarily in New Jersey my status is more that of investor. I never have made any money from it, but at least my ties to it help keep it in business.)
If you could put a price tag on your layout, what would it be? (including manual labor if you feel that is necessary)
I can't.
How much do you estimate the cost was for all of the components?
The basics for a lightweight 2' x 4' module can be built for under $100, including hardware, three main lines of Peco code 80 track, roadbed, ballast, wiring, and skyboard.
Would it be possible for me to come over, check out your layout and maybe have you answer a few questions and show me some wiring techniques, etc?
Come to the Greenberg show at Raritan Center on 10-11 March and look for Jersey Central Ntrak. I may or may not be there but there will be a lot of folks glad to talk to you.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Shawn, I can't add much to what the others have told you, which is all good advice. I grew up with O gauge because my dad sold Lionel trains, but I spent many years in HO after I went out on my own, and loved every minute of it. I built my first HO kit more than forty years ago and got a lot of satisfaction from doing it. There is a great deal more ready-to-run stuff now than there was in the old days. I have also dabbled with N gauge, but my personal preference was that HO was better. I gave up HO about twenty years ago, and returned to O gauge.
I would recommend that you study both N and HO before you make your final decision. In the old days a model railfan built many kits before he even thought of starting a layout.
In my area (200 miles from the NYC) there are several model RR clubs, with very loyal members. Some of these guys don't have their own layouts, but use the club layout to run their trains. If this type of opportunity is available in the city, you might want to try it.
You're considering what can develop into a very expensive hobby. Make sure that you are absolutely positive when you make your decision as to gauge, and then proceed slowly.
If I can help with any further information, please feel free to Email me.
Who here has a model railroad layout?
I do, I do!!
What scale is it?
HO.
Do you wish you had done it in another scale?
Nope. N is too small for me, and I don't have enough room for O. HO is small enough for me to create realistic scenes and have trains of decent size without breaking my budget.
What you feel the benefits of the scale you chose is?
Besides space, you have the nost variety.
Does your layout incorporate DCC?
Nope. I have a basic block system, where I can isolate sections of track to turn off, and can run two trains on independent throttles even on the same track. I learned all the wiring from those Atlas books "Wiring Your Layout". I'm not that mechanically inclined, and I was able to follow the directions in the book and do the wiring successfully.
What's are the basic shape or dimenions of your layout?
2 tables, 4' x 8', and 4' x 6', with a one foot connecting strip between them. 2 track mainline. Some passing sidings (express running). 1 8-track 4-platform subway station, half covered, half open cut. Urban scene, including skyscrapers (N scale!) above the tracks. One 2 island, 4 track platform, 3 tracks terminate, one track runs through. Subway tunnels with grafitti and workmen in them. Subway platforms with a good number of people, scratch built. Tunnels are lit. Approximately 50 subway cars in the fleet ranging from AB standards to R9s to one set of R-32s. Also have Walthers BART and WMATA kits. Spray painted one WMATA kit silver, applied blue stripe, applied M decals from NYC subway maps for an instant "new technology train". Used maps for station signs, train destination listings, etc. One table is done (although it was recently hit by a "storm" (my kids throwing things) and I have a few traffic lights to put back up). The other table is still unfinished, for the moment.
Do you have a favorite hobby shop or do you primarily purchase components online?
I usually get most of my stuff at train shows.
If you could put a price tag on your layout, what would it be? (including manual labor if you feel that is necessary)
No clue. Probably measured in the thousands of dollars.
How much do you estimate the cost was for all of the components?
Track itself was $400 and the track machines and switches probably added up to that, too. Rolling stock ranged from Walthers plastic kits ($25) to MTS Imports brass R-15s ($600+).
Wish I had more time to play with it!
--Mark
I have an HO scale modular elevated layout perpetually under construction that is 15' X 19' (it's not really as big as you think, since it is basically a "L" shaped shelf, two feet wide). You can see some photos of it on the "Modeling the New York City Subway" website at www.monmouth.com/~patv. It uses conventional cab control that allows two trains to run independently. I have no idea how much I have invested in it, but the money is minor compared to the time, blood, sweat and tears (literally) that has gone into it. When I began, HO scale seemed the way to go, but after working closely with MTH Trains over the last year on the R-21 project, and seeing the results, I think that I'd rather be in O gauge. HO scale is a nice compromise, but even at 43 years old, I have trouble seeing all the details. In addition, fine scale HO modeling and kids do not mix. My HO El layout is nice, but I can't share it with my young sons. So, I built a small Lionel display style layout (based on the Lionel dealer display D-164 that I remembered seeing at T.R. Herman in Jamaica when I was a kid) for my sons. They love it, and trains have become something that the family can share. Now I thinking of building a larger O Gauge Hi-Rail layout that will incorporate an elevated an subway line, providing a proper place for those great MTH R-21's and future cars to run on.
O-scale is great for kids, esp. younger ones who have difficulty gently manipulating smaller trains.
Shawn,
In response to your post, I took a picture of a couple of engines I have sitting around right now. Unfortunately, I do not have the space to set up my layout now, but can occasionally get out my engines and dream. :-)
Anyway, it gives a good comparison between HO and N gauges. For your reference, I included my computer keyboard in the background.
I couldn't help but include my only set of rapid transit cars in the photo (they're HO scale, and realistically shorter than mainline railroad equipment). I assembled them when I was about six, so the craftmanship with the glue, etc. is rather poor. But, they are better than any picture to remember the Washington Metro. I can't wait until I have an opporitunity to live in a metropolitan area with real rapid transit. :-)
Hope this helps,
Brandon Bostian
The HO engine is a F-M covered wagon ?
Mr t__:^)
I have no idea :-)
Thurston, I can't bring up the picture anymore, but if I remember correctly it was a FM Trainmaster!
That would have been my guess, a Geep, but not from EMD.
Mr t__:^)
The early "geep's" were lumped into a category which was called road switchers. I guess to differentiate them from the various GM F units. The FM trainmaster and "baby" trainmaster would fit in the same cartegory. The ALCO RS units would also be in that group.
While the body style of the later units is still basically the same, I just can't think of the GM SD-45, the GE U33C or the ALCO C-630 as still being road switchers.
I'm sure that there are a hundred people on this board that will tell me that I am wrong though!
You won't hear that outta me ... that's pretty much it though the locos the TA uses wouldn't last a month in a freight yard ... but they're certainly enough for the job on the subways.
IIRC the term Geep was applied to the EMD models such as GP7/9..or on into the 35,38 etc. Never heard Alcos or others referred to as Geeps although in reality they are just that, General purpose, in the road switcher varieties. Heard Alcos called plenty of other names..for the fun of it..most of them uncomplimentary...by engineers that is.
I have seen them refered to by that name in various model RxR magazines, incl. trains, etc.
If it was a high hood it was a Geep to them, even though Geep originally refered to the EMD "GP" series, then was broaded to incl. the "SD" group. I would never call a "U boat" or a RS-2 a Geep.
Another group was the "Covered Wagon", i.e. F-2, FL-9, E-8, etc., but then there were exceptions like the "C Liners".
BTW, this month my LIRR calendar has a great shot of a C Liner and my NH one has a Alco Geep (HH-600) working a yard in Boston.
Mr t__:^)
Heh. Just for the newbies (not you, Thurston of course) the "geeps" meant "general purpose" locos and were coined by EMD (now GM/EMD) for locos largely intended for switching a short hauls back in the days when they just humped cars all day while the "mightier diesels" (such as the F's) tended to do actual yard-to-yard haulage.
Things went funny in the 60's and later as the Geeps grew to be and then replace traditional mainline power. The cows and calfs (SW class) tended to fall into yard duty as tractive power got larger. In fact, many of the TA's diesel fleet is based on the old SW600's and 1200's which weren't really intended for mainline use (thus my seemingly snide comment about the TA's diesel "toys") in a previous post ...
But largely in recent years, all those lines have largely blurred in what you can buy or lease these days.
[... the "geeps" meant "general purpose" locos ...]
and the "SD" version ... Special Duty ? IIRC the GPs had 4 wheels per truck & the SDs had 6. SD's replaced the covered wagons (Fs, etc.)
[The cows and calfs (SW class) tended to fall into yard duty]
now there's a term I have heard for a while ... the calf/slug BTW didn't have a operators controls. I don't think the term was coined by EMD ... anyone know ?
Mr t__:^)
Thanks a lot for the picture. Yeah it was N-scale I was thinking of from my friend's father's layout. I think I've pretty much made up my mind to go with N-scale due to space contraints.
Thanks for everyone's input!
Shawn.
Lots of luck.
Okay, here's my answers:
1. Yes, I have a model railroad layout
2. My layout is HO scale.
3. Yes and no. My layout is a 6x8 table and it's not really enough running space for all the rolling stock and locomotives that I own. If I was into primarily freight railroading, then I would most definitely switch to N scale. N is the only way to go if you want to have realistic scenery, industries, and long freights without a basement the size of Tony Koester's. But traction is my mainstay and while my current layout (I should say OUR, since it's a joint effort of me and my dad) is geared towards freight, my first post-college layout will be geared towards passenger operations (hopefully, HO models of the Talgos will be available to complement the new F59PHI). So yeah, if you want to do anything with freight then go with N.
4. HO is bigger - that's the benefit and the drawback. Trust me, unless you make 300K a year and can build a huge barn next to your spacious Nassau county house for the layout, fo with N. HO is appropriate for short passenger trains, traction (operating catenary is impossible in N), and industrial switching layouts.
5. My layout does not incorporate DCC, but that's because it wasn't cost-effective. I'm leaving the house in about 6 months and the layout will then be only used occasionally once I'm gone. I plan to incorporate DCC into my next layout...but installing the decoders in N locos can be a pain in the @$$.
6. It's a table, but trust me you don't wanna go with that. Around-the-walls layouts are the best, as long as they don't have duckunders. Duckunders are a pain in the @$$. Check out the BEAUTIFUL N-scale layout in this months' Model railroader, that's what I'm talkin' about...
7. I've never purchased stuff online. Your best bet for locos/stock and anything you buy in large quantities (like flex-track) is to go to a train show and find people selling stuff at discounted price, or to order from someone like Standard Hobby Supply. But for small items the local hobby shop can't be beat.
8. The layout is relatively cheap - I'd say there's about maybe 300 bucks invested in it. But the rolling stock and locos are probably worth 1000, at least.
9. Depends. You can have a huge layout with one Bachmann F-9 running around on it, or you can have a small layout with drawers and drawers full of equipment like me. Cost varies.
10. Feel free to visit. But you'll be paying for the round-trip plane ticket to Sea-Tac. Oh, and since the earthquake wiped out the control tower, expect long delays...the Air Traffic Control people are all running the airport out of a 30-foot trailer sitting next to the runway. No joke. Other than that, yeah come on over.
"Other than that" That's a pretty major THAT you're talking aboot!
I recently moved into a place where my college buddy is the landlord. He actually ENCOURAGES me in building my around the walls layout. The whole thing was sparked by the Atlas AEM-7. Hard to model the shore-line without one these days. Its true that N allows you more prototypical train lengths, but they still aren't going to look right unless you have enough space for broad broad corners. I think if you "selectively compress" you can get a very realistic feel in any scale.
Dave
operating catenary is impossible in N
Not true. Bribe Mark Feinman and he'll probably videotape some for you at this May's East Penn Traction Club meet, assuming that layout shows up again. In any event Alex Postpischil, who has been known to lurk here, will have his N scale overhead wire trolley line at the show - he's even presenting a clinic on it this year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll vouch for that in N gauge as well. Kato's commuter/subway car trainsets have pans on them and there's a solder terminal where they come through the housings. A simple cut on the circuit board with a wire jumper wakes up the connection there and there's even a pair of handy solder-bridge points so you can shunt the two wheels on the truck so you can use one rail for signalling (assuming you use plastic track joints to create insulated blocks) ... Never tried it myself though.
Maybe, but I would need to use trolley poles, not just pants. I can see where pants would be possible. But Trolley poles in HO are already vastly oversize (check the Boston MTA articles in MR), and I shudder to think what they'd look like in N. Personally I'll stick with HO for traction, 9" is tight enough radius for me.
Heh. I can understand ... I just went with N primarily because my layout has no loops to it - it's uptown, downtown in a 2 track line with terminals on each end and a "bigtime" yard to layup everything. N allowed me to have more scale mileage, that's why I went that way.
N scale poles don't look bad at all... PE Model Supply has some real nice ones. The wire is a tad oversized in order to have enough stiffness, but if you have the patience to work it carefully and silver solder your joints (plus file them) it can be pretty convincing too. HO scale traction has been around enough years, with such a limited market, that no new competition has bothered to enter the market with more realistically-sized poles. N scale traction, being a comparatively new thing, started out right in the first place.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would never consider freight in anything other than N...however, I think modeling city street scenes close-up is easier in HO.
Probably, but I've found a lot of nice detail parts in N... picked up a few more this weekend (how about pay phones and fire alarm call boxes, or shopping carts, done in etched stainless from Gold Medal Models?)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is Airtrain going to use a third rail or two third rails? My memory may be incorrect, but I think either Vancouver's Skytrain or Toronto's linear induction route (Scarborough?) uses two power rails, one atop the other. As I drove by the ground-level stretch east of Federal Circle today, some concrete ties and some trackage were in place. It looked as if there was some sort of covered third rail, but (because of the speed of traffic) I could not get a good look. Similarly, there seemed to be third rail in the maintenance yard (130th Place? south of the Nassau Expressway), but again I could not stop. Thanks.
Both the Skytrain and the Scarborough RT lines use the same sytem. One has a cab with a 'driver', the other doesn't and that's about the extent of the differences for all practical reasons; in any case the propulsion and power distribution systems are the same and the Airtrain is just an updated version.
Anyways, both systems have two third rails or use, as the somewhat similar system in use on the London Underground is called, fourth rail electrification. The Airtrain will also have two third rails.
110 were expected, 107 showed up, 2 quit there.
8 classes of B division and 3 of A.
It this is for T/O or other? I just receive a letter from NYCT & i have to be at 1250 Broadway this thursday for NYCT Traffic Checker & the salary is $11.48 an hours.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
David, please check your listed e-mail ASAP re: a private e-mail on this posting! Thanks. -Peace, Thomas:)
I am in the 2/26 TO class
This afternoon I decided to ride the B to Brooklyn, operating (as per the GO) over the Sea Beach line. (The GO wasn't clear about whether it would run local or express; I was hoping for the latter.) I ended up going on a much more interesting ride.
I hop onto a B at W4. After sitting in the station for a few minutes, the dreaded announcement comes: there's a sick passenger at Grand Street. Groan.
Five or ten minutes go by. A Q arrives on the local track; I stare in wonder as the guy next to me informs me it's a Q. (What, does he see a Q on the local track every day?) I run across to find out where it's going: "Next stop, Delancey, then Jay." As most of the Q passengers jump ship, I make my way up to the front -- after all, how often does one find an R-40 on the F?
The doors close. We tootle our way through B-L, past a D train, much to the chagrin of its many passengers. We get a few funny looks at 2nd Avenue and, when we stop at Delancey, lots of questions. "Next stop, Jay Street - Borough Hall" -- and we're off, bypassing East Broadway and York. At Jay, nobody knows what's next. The C/R opens the cab door and tells me that a passenger was stabbed at Grand Street; when I ask him where we're going, he says he still doesn't know but that usually the train would run express.
Disappointment: we're informed the Q will make all local stops on the F. Even though I almost got to ride over the F express tracks, I'm not entirely disappointed as even the F local is worthwhile on an R-40. Indeed, we make every stop. Eventually word comes through that the train will be terminating at Avenue X. All F stops to Avenue X. All F stops to Avenue X. All F stops to Avenue X. Everyone is a bit surprised when the train pulls into the center track at Kings Highway and everyone is kicked off. I ask the T/O if the train is going back to Manhattan; no, it's going to the yard. Oh, well. The C/R announces that a D is shortly behind us; now that I've ridden a Q on the Culver, I might as well wait for the D.
(We're going back through subway history. First an R-40 on the Culver, where the R-40's began. Then a D on the Culver, the pre-Chrystie arrangement. Neat.)
An F pulls in and I let it go. A few minutes later an empty D pulls in on the express track, stops for a few minutes with the doors closed, and continues on its way. I guess I'll have to wait for an F after all.
Nothing much happens on the rest of the ride, but while we're stopped at West 8th a Manhattan-bound Q passes through the station upstairs. I'll bet that was the Q I was on; I don't know why no passengers were allowed to remain for the nonstop ride to Coney Island.
In any case, I rode the B back to Manhattan; by that time it was back on its regular route, with nothing interesting to see at Grand.
Okay, reactions and questions. First and foremost, I don't see any mention of this anywhere -- not on nyc.transit, not on SubTalk, not on any of the online news sources. Surely stabbings aren't so common nowadays that they should go ignored.
I suppose I should be glad that any trains continued running, but why didn't the Q run express through Brooklyn? The Q is normally an express, and it already lost a lot of time due to the delays; I'm sure there were large crowds along the Brighton line waiting to get into Manhattan. Since the F was unaffected, the Q provided extra service where it wasn't needed, and the platforms (and train) were virtually empty the whole way down.
Was Manhattan-bound service affected? I only saw F's on the Manhattan-bound F track.
Where did all the other trains go? As I mentioned, a D came through Kings Highway -- where did it dump its passengers, and where did they go? The obvious reroute, somewhat labor-intensive, is through the largely unused Chrystie Street Cut onto the Williamsburg Bridge, then reversing onto the Nassau Street line and through the tunnel -- or, barring that, a few J's should have been extended into Brooklyn and down the Brighton line (and the Q rerouted via Broadway and then onto the Brighton local) and the M rush hour service should have begun a bit early and been extended to Coney Island. (Keep in mind that a different GO limited the J to 24-minute headways and cut the M back to a shuttle; extending both lines might have been impossible with the planned understaffing.) Did any of this happen? How long did the disruption last, anyway? From Peter Dougherty's track map, it appears as though the D and B at B-L and W4 respectively could wait or could reverse but couldn't switch to the local track.
(Before anyone asks where I've been lately -- in case anyone's even noticed my absence -- I've been busy. I've been back in NYC since January 11 and I'm here semi-permanently -- or semi-temporarily, if you prefer. I've been occasionally browsing a few of the threads here, but I haven't had the time to be fully involved. I have been on nyc.transit; the volume there is much lower than here and I can maneuver through traditional newsgroups a lot faster than web-based boards. I won't be reading everything here but I'll try to keep up to date on this thread, at the very least.)
Absolutely no mention of it on the news tonight. I guess the media is also in a state of denial about a rise in crime in the city.
A stabbing at Grand street in my beloved Chinatown??
Sure makes ya think about how safe Grand street is now.
Yes, in your beloved Chinatown. Or, rather, under. I have no idea what provoked the attack; it may have had no connection to the neighborhood above. I am quite surprised the news still hasn't said a word. Did any of the traffic reports mention the reroutes?
(Of course, it's possible that the T/O had been misinformed and that it really was nothing more than a sick passenger. Still, I feel kind of bad that my day of fun was at someone else's expense.)
At what time did this happen again??
Hopefully we'll find out a little more in tomorrow's Daily News.
I'm starting to think watching TV news is just garbage. Better to get the news from where most people get it, the NEWSPAPER.
Around 2:30.
I don't watch TV. I looked around on the web at various NYC news sites and didn't find anything relevant.
Well, all it takes is for none of us to be around when something like that happens. If no one (who would post such a thing) was caught up in it, who would know it happened?
Friday night (Saturday morning), I witnessed about 150+ people miss a once an hour ferry boat by about 3 minutes, when their train had been sitting outside the station for 10 minutes. This is not news; neither is two re-routed trains or a stabbing in NYC. This is life.
Missing a ferry is not news. Two rerouted trains (although I'm sure there were more) is not news.
But, I'm sorry, a stabbing is news.
I agree; the Daily News usually jumps through hoops to report violence in the subway (e.g., the slashing on the 1/9 a month or so ago). This leads me to believe that the T/O may have been mistaken, or that we'll see it in the "Express" edition this afternoon :).
But an R-40 on the Culver, that's news!!
Who says you can't go home again?
>>>But an R-40 on the Culver, that's news!! <<<
To us only. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
>>Five or ten minutes go by. A Q arrives on the local track........ "Next stop, Delancey, then Jay.....
make my way up to the front -- after all, how often
does one find an R-40 on the F?
First it's a Q... now an F??
Well, it was signed as a Q but it was operating on the F tracks. I've never seen the F tracks from the railfan window until today.
Incidentally, I did snap two pictures of the Q and one of the D at Kings Highway.
The R32's ran on the F quite frequently in the early 1990's, and provided a nice opportunity to see the F line thru a railfan window.
In 1987, I encountered a similiar problem. I rode a C train of R10's from the Bronx, via 8th Ave, thru Rutger St. and down the F line to Church Ave. The one and only time I can remember riding the R10 on any line not assigned to the C route. I forgot what caused the reroute. But with no PA system, it sure was fun!
Too bad you never got to ride them on the A. That was an unbeatable combination.
BTW, how was the noise level? It couldn't have been all that bad if you say it was fun!:-)
Earsplitting, as usual. What I meant as "fun" was watching the confusion many people had at both Jay St. and W4th St. With no PA's in the train, the conductor had to "yell" that the train would be rerouted via the F line to Jay St., then yell again that the train was making all local stops to Church Ave. because the switch north of Jay St. was malfunctioning.
I love chaos.
>>>I love chaos. <<<
Me too it is so humbling to the general populace.
Peace,
ANDEE
Question: since the first R40 was delivered in 1968, how could it run on the Culver D? They did run on the Culver F, anyway.
Oh, no. When the IND first took over the Culver, the D train provided service. And when the R-40's first came in, they ran on the Culver. Not both at the same time, though.
NY Apple Death Tours bites the dust - currently the lead story on NY1:
http://www.ny1.com
Besides one of their unlicensed drivers running over a pedestrian, the story said they illegally imported some of their toxic-fuming buses.
Again, the media spreading misinformation. THe driver involved in that accident was properly licensed for what he was doing, which was driver an OOS bus. If there had been passengers on the bus, then he would have been improperly licensed, NOT unlicensed.
-Hank
just to let you know, the owner of the company is corrupt. he purposely does these things to save money with dirty money he used to make the company in the first place. Coach usa should take it over and bring it back to life as a safe company. everyone just calls it the killer bus because it hit somebody. its not the bus its the driver who wasn't qalified to drive a bus
I guess you didn't really read my post. Any driver with a Class C CDL license can drive an OUT OF SERVICE bus. You can only drive a bus IN SERVICE if you have a passenger endorsement. The driver involved in the accident was a mechanic, driving an empty bus.
And you know the money is 'dirty' how?
-Hank
The company had been cited for an assortment of violations, prior to the pedestrian's death. They were a bad neighbor, irrespective of the qulifications of that particular driver.
The first time I was in NYC, we bought tickets at our hotel for week passes for Apple tours. They never took our tickets, so after we got back to the hotel for the night, we got a refund! Anyway, back to the bus: We got on a bus at the Empire State building, and they packed us in like rush hour commuters. The tour guide wasn't very enthusastic about his job, he said at one point, "...the subway will get you 10 times faster to anywhere in New York than this bus." We got off at WTC and we thought that was the ghettoest tour ride we've ever been on. So we rode the subway the rest of the week. Getting on the N/R at Cortandt St was my first ride on the subway.
The one good thing about the tour was that since it was the week of New Year's, hardly anyone rode on the open top level, except yours truly. What a rush!
I've lived in Brooklyn my whole life. I've never been on an apple tours bus. And yet i'm not dissapointed: I hated those buses and their foul-smelling black clouds they produced when they accelerated.
They're selling all the buses to one of their competitors.
Besides taking Metro-North to the White Plains station, how do I get to the Westchester Mall from the station?
So far internet web maps have sucked. Do I have to go out and buy a hagstrom?
Here ya go ... you're going to need to drive or take a Westchester county BUS from the White Plains station but this map will get you there:
http://m1.maps.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/mqmapgen_v4.0?GEOData=337%3brnuaa5%242lu%28%3dtx041w%242sbj2%7cw%249de7m%7c5u6,pjo6p7%3br2u.gv82s-1.WIKu337%3brnuaa5%24HQJ92lu%28%3dtx041w%24HQJ9oxiwo5-lu,&client=10638
You mean it's too far to walk? I can walk up to one mile each way.
The map doesn't show the train station in relation to the mall. I'll get to the library or bookstore tomorrow and take a look at a Westchester map and measure the distance.
It's probably half-mile or less to Galleria. Easy walk due east. It's more than a mile to Westchester. It's flat past the Galleria, then to right on Route 22, left on 119. and down the hill. Obviously, up a hill on the return. There's probably a direct bus.
John, it's about a 5 minute walk from the train station to the Galeria. Are you looking for the Galeria or the White Plains Mall? They are different. In any case, you can walk to either in 5-10 minutes. Get out of the train station, turn east - and walk down main st. You will see the Galeria there on your right. Then there's also the Westchester mall, which would be a 15-25 minute walk.
ws
The Westchester Mall is what I'm looking for. I have no problem with a 15-25 minute walk, since the Sea Cliff train station is about a 30 minute walk from my place.
Buying a Hagstrom for the city you live in is always a good idea. They're great to have around, even if you use the Internet to get directions.
I used to have an Old Westchester county atlas but I misplaced it.
I do have FAIRLY current ones for Nassau, Suffolk, and NYC.
I would recommend buying a Hagstrom map of Lower Westchester County because they are quite detailed. The Galleria is only a little more than a block from the White Plains station on the Harlem Line. The Westchester Mall is about 3/4 mile or so east of the White Plains train station.
BMTJeff
I think the library has a Westchester map I can copy the White PLains area. A 10 cent copy is a lot cheaper than an atlas, which usually runs around $12.
No sense buying an atlas just for a small area that I need directions to.
I hope that you can find a copy of the map that you want.
BMTJeff
OK, here's an idea. Being that media is too focused on tabloid garbage to focus on real news, it is up to us to provide subway news here.
If there is an event (such as a stabbing, attack, person in front of train,etc) it should be covered here.
Thanks to David J. for bringing us the story on Subtalk news.
OK, anyone interested on putting together a little internet daily newsletter on events in the subway??
Subtalk News---real news, not who Bill is sleeping with or pardoning next...real news...not a superstar court case....real news that affects you and me
Nope.
What would that be? Some delay what happened hours ago? Your experience in Nassau bus lines? Tabloid news it is, isn't it?
Arti
No it would be major diversions that happened on the subway, such as smoke conditions, fires, sick passengers, or major crime.
Well since the Daily News seems to cover these things better than TV news I guess we'll all just have to look at tomorrow's paper.
... or Dayly News online.
Arti
If the media REALLY cared, then I would have seen Heypaul's R9 cab on the 10 o'clock news on WNYW ... one of the advantages of living in the great white north with DirecTV is I get to watch channel 5 from NYC. We used to have channel 11 until they started that silly Dubya-bee stuff. Now they're yanked. I miss Kaity. :)
I get 11 in western Massachusetts.
Must be that Berkshire UFO bounce. (grin) Out here west of Smallbany, about all we ever see is a bit of skip from NYC's "We are 13" on top of our local WNYT13 (NBC). Anything else is out of the question. Even 2 (WCBS TV) rarely skips in up here. With the demise of "independent" stations running movies, we've lost 11 and 9 to faux-networks (no more movies) and since we have UPN and WB locals here, the syndication rules knocked them off the satellite in this market (the local stations won't approve NYC) and so the only thing we have here is FOX5 NYC and FOX11, KTLA ... Fox was the only network that let us have the "national" feeds and there's a local FOX (WXXA-23)
When we had Cablevision (before AOL cable took it over) WPIX was available. Though I've been out of the city for 30 years now, I still want to live vicariously, like folks who stick their heads out of their car window to see a trainwreck. :)
The pleasures of DX reception, my other hobby.
Well the north shore of LI is DX hell, the hills mess up signals big time with lots of ghosting. I have an antenna (no cable) and get very poor reception, on UHF and VHF. Channel 2,13,and 21 ghost severely. On FM, alot of radio stations do not come in clearly.
Often in one spot you'll hear it loud and clear, move to the next street and it's gone.
And I have a handheld scanner, but forget about hearing LIRR or subway communications, I can barely get local fire and police clearly.
When I was on the south shore I got everything in clearly. Here, it's hit or miss.
A community access channel geared toward transit would be great (on cable and/or UHF). Really. There needs to be a place for people to get up to date transit information and events (radio traffic reports are just that).
Couldn't they use the existing wires in the system to transmit transit information on AM?
Sure they could and some day when I have oodles of spare time, the "leaky cable" on the subway system walls that are used for train communications COULD carry the FM band as well ... the NYCTA uses this really wierd Andrews heliax cable with oval cutouts so that it can transmit the 6-10 feet from the tunnel walls or ceiling to the radios on board the trains. Hams know this as "leaky transmission line" and since the TA is up above 125 MHz, FM radio could be "leaked" through the same cable without risk of harmonic interference to subway communications. But that's an angle the TA never thought of. Hell, they do it in tunnels elsewhere.
Wow ... I've started my own political quality of life political controversy ... pardon me a second ... (pat! pat! pat!) ... now back to our show which is already in progress. :)
But isn't here "no radio playing" in the subway :-)
Arti
Alot of people use walkmans. There's a potential audience for broadcast radio down there. Yeah, Subradio, how about it?
[Yeah, Subradio, how about it? ]
I personally prefer not to listen to commercials as an enterntainment.
Arti
Unfortunately the "leaky" cable will probably be used for some yuppie cell phone conversation before it delivers FM radio to my walkman. :-(
For some people being reachable all the time means business.
Arti
I guess you haven't realized how cheap cell phones are. And I guess you've never been to poor neighborhoods, to see that even there, residents yak away.
A cell phone is no more a luxury than a landline phone anymore. Or a television, refrigerator, electricity and the many other things one has in his house.
I actually use a cell phone as my home phone, and I end up saving money over conventional landline by having caller ID, voice mail, call waiting, free nationwide roaming and long distance bundled in a single pricing package for a flat monthly rate ($50 a month on Sprint PCS, and minus many of the taxes and surcharges that come on standard landline phone bills). Since my internet access is via cable modem, I have no use for a landline whatsoever (Eat me, Ameritech!), not to mention the convenience of a cell phone.
(Rest assured, when I got my cell phone I made a solemn vow never to yak away on it while riding the bus or train or otherwise annoy the hell out of my fellow commuters.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Rest assured, when I got my cell phone I made a solemn vow never to yak away on it while riding the bus or train or otherwise annoy the hell out of my fellow commuters.
Why? Do you not talk on the bus or train either if riding with a companion?
The backlash against public cellular phone use is just a backlash against any new technology. Remember when handheld cellular phones caused brain tumors? The only good part of this backlash is the no handheld cell phone while driving rule that is being adopted in many places (possibly even NYC soon).
Anyway, those people should just go back to electrocuting animals in Central Park. This time, the animals should be themselves.
No, this political hoohah is just another revenue source as far as the politicos go - catch someone yakking, collect a fine (tax). After all, fumbling for a spilled hot beverage, dropped cigarette or both hands occupied with a super-size drive-through meal tend to cause way more accidents than cell phones ... but somehow this one is easier to manufacture into an issue because most people used to think that anyone who had a cell phone was rich, and therefore an easy pick for cash. That's the game ... the Luddite angle only is designed to make it easier to swallow.
And as to talking on the train, that's sacrilege ... after all, to many of us here, a train is *church* ... as Robert Klein once did in his act, "NO TALKING!" (grin)
I found this image on ebay.
http://sites.netscape.net/valentinehill/whatisthis.jpg
It may be in NYC or Brooklyn.
The tracks in this picture appear to be narrow gauage with an under-running third rail. I think it is a coal tipple.
But where, when and what for?
A power generating station? Possibly at the Polo Grounds yards?
There appears to be some kind of elevated (railway?) structure in the background.
Wow... I've never seen under-running third rails before.
Metro North, the former NY Central Electrified Zones, has been using under-running 3rd rail since for 100 years. It was also installed in Detroit for the tunnel and terminal trackage also.
i ran across a question about prague elevators on a message board... after some searching on google, i came up with some interesting anecdotes... there are very few elevators in prague... there are some that have no doors and move slowly from floor to floor not stopping... when you reach your floor, you just jump off... another person described the escalators leading to the very deep prague subways as running on warp speed... really moving fast and tricky to get on and off...
prague sounds intriguing...
the idea of elevators with no doors and not stopping and people jumping on and off, gave me the idea of a possible remedy for the r142's... remove all doors, operate at low speeds, do not stop the cars, people can jump off and get on while the train is in motion thus saving wear on the brakes, eliminating door problems, and reducing dwell time in stations...
That wouldn't be ADA compliant :-)
Arti
I could just imagine it now.
Elevators:
A person in a wheelchair gets the chair lying on its back on an upward lift, or on the person's face on a downward lift.
Subways:
A person in a wheelchair has to start at the back of the station and race to keep aligned with the doors, having to do a wheelie to try to get aboard, with little or no success.
Man, I hope those elevator landings are well marked. There's nothing worse than walking along, not paying attention and suddenly, WHOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!
You fall down an elevator shaft who-knows-how-many floors and kill yourself.
Of course you would have to have a "buffer zone" between the stationary platform and the moving subway. Perhaps the buffer zone would continually move at 1/2 the subway speed, or maybe it would start at 0 and then accelerate to subway speed when the train arrives.
Anybody ever read an ancient science fiction short story called "The Roads must Roll" where moving sidewalks have replaced all other forms of transportation?
Actually, there was something similar to the continuously moving train in New York at one time! It was at the World's Fair in '64-'65. I believe it was the AT&T pavillion and possibly others. The "train" was continuously moving and endless, i.e., complete loop. Passengers entered (and exited) from (to) a travelator that moved at approximately half the speed of the "train".
Common practice at Disney World/EPCOT Center...
-Dave
I remember some places in WDW where they have a train moving at the same speed as the platform. That's right, a REAL moving platform, not like those gap fillers! There is a thing in Future Land where they do this. The continuous train is used in the "Spaceship Earth" and "The Living Seas" attractions. I don't remember where else there's things like that.
>>>... there are very few elevators in prague... there are some that have no doors and move slowly from floor to floor not stopping...
when you reach your floor, you just jump off...<<<
What you are describing is what's called a "manlift". Commonly found in flour mills, grain elevators, and other vertically organized facilities.
Here is an article about a Minnesota company that is the last manufacturer of belt-driven manlifts today:
http://webserv3.startribune.com:80/stOnLine/cgi-bin/article?thisSlug=BLOD11&date=11-Feb-2001&word=youngblood
hey bill... thanks for the link to the info about manlifts...
i found the company website, and they had a very cute animated gif of a manlift...
animated manlift gif
"there are some that have no doors and move slowly from floor to floor not stopping... when you reach your floor, you just jump off..."
There's some of these in Britain, too, where for some unknown reason they're called a "paternoster". The device is a constant series of platforms or floors on a vertical belt, not just a single elevator car without doors, so you couldn't fall down the shaft to the bottom, only to the next platform. They turn around in such a way at the top and bottom that the floor is always the floor and the ceiling is always the ceiling. Otherwise, there would be no place for the electric light, or it would be on the floor half the time. And yes, that means you CAN stay on at the top or bottom without being turned upside-down. They move fast enough to be useful but not so fast as to be dangerous getting on or off.
From what I've read, they seem to be, or have been, used where large numbers of people move between floors all at once and at multiple times during the day, thus swamping regular elevators. In other words, mainly school and university buildings.
It's a good thing it doesn't fold up like escalator steps... squish!
Hello, there. I read a notice whereby that for the next 5 weekends, the Bridge will be closed to trains bet 11p Fri to 5A mon. I thought that this was supposed to have been completed in 1999.
It is. They're closing the tracks so they can do work on the north roadway with some equipment that is more than likely to interfere with transit operations.
The majority of the north roadway Brooklyn approach has been removed pat Driggs St.
-Hank
Sounds like the Manny B to me Hank, except that at least the Willie B had reopened for a while, while the southside of the Manny B is still closed. They say it is soon to open but I'll believe it when I see it.
Except that the Willy B is 75% fixed. Amazing the difference between the contracts; the Willy B has speed incentives.
-Hank
Has that anything to with the possible fact that the Willy B is structurally sounder than the Manny B.? I keep hearing the Manhattan Bridge's structure is not very sound, and I don;t know whether to believe it or not.
One big difference is the Williamsburg Bridge doesn't suffer from flexing the way the Manhattan Bridge does because its subway tracks are in the center, instead of on the sides.
That's a pain; I guess we did our "'El of a Day" trip just in time.
The track reconstruction is done; this closure is related to the reconstruction of the Manhattan-bound roadway. My guess is they need the track area for some staging, or there are some clearance issues between construction equipment and trains.
Right. J trains will run in two sections:
Broad (or Chambers) to Essex AND
Marcy to Jamaica Center
A free shuttle bus (Get ticket at Marcy or essex) will connect Marcy and Essex.
NYCT suggests using the A or L.
I have a lunch relief job on the line Monday (Sunday overnight) and will be posting observations for these five weeks.
Apparently, new C/R Mike (aka Sub-Bus) was on duty on the duece. When he got to Jackson Ave. in the Bronx, a passenger got off who looked familiar: it was another SubTalker and fellow NYCT employee, Stef! Mike didn't have enough time to get Stef's attention before the train was moving out of the station.
Talk about your coincidences!
To Stef: Next time ride in the conductor's car -- you never know who might be making the station announcements...:-)
BMTman
So that was Mike! Well, it's always good to meet fellow SubTalkers. He must have started his trip at Wall Street, as there was a GO in effect for the 2s to run around South Ferry Loop. His train operator forgot to set the signs for 241 St.
I'll run into Mike at some point.
-Stef
Stef, I suspect you two will run into each other again. Of course as long as Mike continues to work the Woodlawn.
That was one of the weirder coincidences I've heard in a while.
BMTman
Mike on the 4? I thought he was on the deuce!
-Stef
OOPPPs! Sorry, Stef. Ya, Mike's on the 2 NOT the 4. That's why I'm the BMTman and NOT the IRTman (he's in Montana if you must know...;-)
Yep that was me!! Our train was the first train to go through the BG/SF loop. I belive the GO is for the rest of the week.
Well, depending on where I am at what particular time, maybe I'll ride the GO Route. Gosh, what an adventure for the average passenger. You're going north, then all of a sudden you're going south, just to find you're going north again after swinging around the loop. It's one of those bizarre GO's, but it works.
Are there any other peculiar GO's you know of?
-Stef
It was cancelled last night, but it should be back in effect tonight.
3TM
i thought that they discharged passengers?
Nope!! Passengers must stay on the train if they want to reach the West Side.
Forgot to post this earlier: Over the weekend their was a GO on the Canarsie Line that had trains wrong-railing on the southbound track (P1).
The GO was in effect because a work crew was on the Pitkin part of the El structure and were removing the remaining -- and rotting -- roadbed. A crane and other heavy equipment were on the site by the afternoon on Saturday (saw this on my return trip to the Grand Central tour).
Apparently this now readies the structure for dismantling. I see this has happenning in the next few weeks as March was the month where alot of serious work was supposed to occur on the L line.
Stay tuned as there's sure to be more to come.
BMTman
Doug, Thanks for the update.
My understanding is that NYCT forces are removing the 3 tracks from the end of the structure(over the northbound L) to the yellow
bumper blocks on Van Sinderen Ave. North of the bumper blocks,
tracks k-3, and k-4 will remain in operation to support work
trains while the steel supporting the k-1 track (already removed)is
lowered. This will probably happen in the near term.
Has the track removal progressed as far as the bumper blocks on
tracks k-3 and k-4?
The next phase will include a track p-2 bypass north of Atlantic
Ave. which will temporarily use the outer easternmost track (after
repairs) between the north end of Atlantic Ave. and reconnecting
to track P-2 in the vicinity of Fulton St. (former site of Tower #1).
[Has the track removal progressed as far as the bumper blocks on
tracks k-3 and k-4?]
No, not yet. But I'll keep SubTalkers posted on the progress.
Also, SubBus can add some things to this site from time to time as he's in the area.
BMTman
We knew this was coming. But seriously, maybe it's time to cut in that crossover at Bway Junction as a major service disruption could be in the works.
Goodbye to the Remains of the old Fulton El....
-Stef
whats interesting is that I saw this before. But then I saw it again today! DE30 406 leading, and 410 tailing with 8 Bi-levels in between. Are they doing this for more power? By the way this Train went to Hunterspoint-LIC. I have no idea of its origin. but it was on the local track entering jamaica. This track is used for trains going local on the main line like Hempstead, Huntington and Ronkonkoma. I wonder if it made the HSF employee stop.
Yeah, anything more than 4 cars and the DE/DM locomotives can't pull it that well.
I'm curious as to who the heck convinced LIRR management that a diesel would ever be as fast as an electric - as that was part of the motivation behind the DM-30. Anyway, they're not, and they can't be, so they have to double up the power even if not going into Penn. I've taken the direct trains to Glen Head from Penn before, they're great until Mineola where they go into diesel, at which point they become dogs again. I've heard from crews that there's a noticeable difference in tractive effort between the 2 modes, and that the electric mode is much more powerful. It wouldn't surprise me at all.
On the flip side, the new stuff can stop on a dime, which is an improvement over the old stuff. But the acceleration is still pretty bad, despite AC traction and all.
To think that the LIRR chose these EMD Super Steel things over the Genesis becuase GE engines are "slow loaders". Not that the stupid MTA would demand uniformity for common ordering and spare parts. These s*hit-cans can't pull over 6 cars.
One 2000HP GP38 pulled 13 P-72 coaches on grades exceeding 1% every day to Port Jeff until 1987 (when the consist was cut to 11 cars).
Now I don't know much about diesel engines, but from I've seen and heard the DE engines used on the LIRR are as loud as hell, louder than the old diesel engines. Acceleration on the DE's is slow but they do get up to speed on the Mineola-Jamaica stretch.
Once I took the 175 bus and had to wait as an NJT Pascacack valley train went by, stopped at the station, then departed. The acceleration and braking appeared to be very good, way better than LIRR DE's even though it was an old train.
Now the Genesis definetely looks the best. Saw it up close and personal when I was at Grand Central.
It's sharp, and also looks well made. The LIRR should've gone with a diesel fleet similar to Metro North, pulled by Genesis locomotives. But no, LIRR had to try something new, and now we're stuck with it.
And having two levels is more cramped, I'd rather have one level.
Its probably due to that "new and improved" AC traction. Give me the old GP-40's any day.
Also, many people have said that the old EMD F40's had much better acceleration than even the Genesis units.
As for me I think the GE's are ugly as a pile of shitbricks. The EMD DE30/F59 wins on looks any day.
Actually, it's just a characteristic of diesels. The reason why the F-40's are able to get rolling faster has more to do with the fact that the prime mover is running at a constyant rpm all the time. Just gotta wait for the turbo to kick in. With other locos, you have to wind the thing up, and that takes time. I've noticed that at best, the DE-30's can keep up with an MU (maybe get rolling a touch faster), but they die above 30 or 40mph.
AC traction is where it's at. Better for starting trains, no flash overs, ground faults, sucked in snow shorts, brush problems, etc etc etc. As solid state technology finally gets up to the task, the cost of inverters will drop like a rock, along with the size of them. Not to mention ASEA, among others, makes them in the form of cute little replaceable modules. Anyway, within a few years, an inverter suitable for a small (50hp) motor will shrink to the size of a milk crate, if not smaller. Oh yeah, and 99 or so percent efficientcy, as opposed to the much lower values for resistance control.
As for GE locomotives loading slow, GE locos suck. This is news?
The problem with the DE/DMs is that the LIRR tried to violate the laws of physics, but found out the hard way that they couldn't. According to EMD, it's got 3,000 tractive horsepower. We'll assume that's actually at the rail. Now, the thing weighs around 260,000lbs (I think).
Let's add 4 cars. We'll assume, for lack of better data, that the cars are 125,000lbs a piece. They're probbably more.
4 cars @ 125,000 lbs : 500,000 lbs
1 locomotive: 260,000 lbs
Total: 760,000 lbs
Horsepower: 3000
Or: 253 lbs per horsepower
Now, let's take our friendly bouncy M-1s, and make a 6 car train:
6 cars @ 95,000 lbs : 570,000 lbs (heavier than the 4 diesel cars)
But:
0 locomotive: 0 lbs!
And further:
6 cars @ 550hp per car: 3300 hp total
Or: 172 lbs per hp.
Granted, it's not a huge difference, but it still gives the electrics an edge that makes them faster.
This also assumes 0 wheelslip, and ideal conditions. Lose a motor on the locomotive, and you've lost a bit of capacity (ditto for the MU). I'm not sure if EMD uses an inverter per truck, or an inverter per axle. You could argue the M-3's heavier weight tilts the scales, but the M-3s also have more motor to them.
If the M-7s weigh as much as the '3s and have the same HP per car, they'll be rockets, thanks to their AC traction motors. I've been on a few LIRR trains where all cars are functional. They're quite fast, faster than any diesel can hope to be.
I don't know why the DE's didn't come with a larger prime mover. 3600hp or even 4000hp would have been easy to produce. At the very least they could have juiced the motors on the DM's so they could have a 3000hp diesel coupled to 6000hp worth of electric motors. Then in 3rd rail territory they could have rocketed along like an AEM-7.
The DE's use a V-12 710, right? I don't feel like looking it up. What a waste, even a V-16 645 could produce 3800hp.
BTW one solution to the MU vs. push pull acceleration problem is just use the Loco hauled for limited stop services.
This stands to reason for two reasons. The DE30s are 3,000 HP (actually 3,100). Keep in mind that the M-1s are 540 HP (IIRC). Assuming that the approximate weight of a C-3 and an M-1 are the same, 5 C-3s plus the loco would take roughly 3,000 HP to perform like the M-1s. Any comparrison with the Geeps is questionable since the 38s MAS was 60 MPH while the DE30s are 80 MPH (33% faster) and accellerate faster than the geeps - more like the M-1s.
This stands to reason for two reasons. The DE30s are 3,000 HP (actually 3,100). Of course, I've been told that up to 20% is lost for "hotel" power (lights, heat, AC etc). At the end of their serviceable life, the Geeps did not supply power for anything but propulsion. Keep in mind that the M-1s are 540 HP (IIRC). Assuming that the approximate weight of a C-3 and an M-1 are the same, 5 C-3s plus the loco would take roughly 3,000 HP to perform like the M-1s. Any comparison with the Geeps is questionable since the 38s MAS was 60 MPH while the DE30s are 80 MPH (33% faster) and accelerate faster than the geeps - more like the M-1s.
Wrong Train Dude. GP38 MAS is 65 mph as is the DE30. All LIRR diesel service is 65MPH. Only DM30's are allowed 80 MPH only under 3rd railpower, all other times 65
According to the LIRR locomotive engineer i was talking to two weeks ago the MAS on the GP38s was 60 and the DE30s MAS is 80 in electric territory. Perhaps he was incorrect. Would you mind telling me where you get your information? In any event, I'm not going to get pissy over 5 MPH. The main point of my post is, the GP38s actually had a little more tractive HP to draw on than do the DE30s and they (the GEEPS) were pulling lighter equipment.
What would the type of locomotive have anything to do with Linespeed? Is the real differance diedel vs. electric territory?
To the best of my knowledge, there is no difference in MAS between the DE30 and DM30. The difference is supposed to be the territory in which they are operating. As to the GEEPs and the DE/DM30s, I think the GEEPS were restricted because of the equipment they were pulling.
Why would electric/non-electric terrority have any role in Linespeed. Linespeed is determined by signaling and track conditions, not the presence of a 3rd rail.
You are forgetting that, on Long Island, the presence of a third rail determines track conditions.
Not exactly! The presence of a 3rd rail determines what equipment can run over a particular line. The timing of the grade X'ings is really what determines the maximum authorized speed. take for example, the tracks from Ronkonkoma to Greenport. The DE30s would normally be authorized for 60 MPH in non-electrified territory. However, because of the grade crossing timing, the MAS is 40 MPH.
I'm sure that being able to run MUs over the main line was on e reason that the MAS was made 80 MPH but then again the Hempstead and West hempstead branches are electrified and the MAS is much lower.
Yes there is a difference in speed between the DE/DM. DM can go 80mph under 3rd rail power, othertimes 65mph. I operate on the LIRR, believe me I know.
If you do operate on the LIRR, what is the MAS for the DMs in electrified territory? Also, on the DM's what is the LIRRs policy in switching from electric to diesel mode? Also, just out of curiosity, what is the max. tractive effort you've gotten one of the new loco's put out?
According to the timetable mas for DM is 80mph. It is rare that they operate at that speed since most of them run in diesel mode all the time. There is no mode changeover carved in stone on the LIRR. Eastbound out of Penn, the timetable says to change to diesel soon after the train exits the tunnel. Westbound DM going to Penn must change over to electric mode between Kew Gardens and no later than Harolds easterly limits. This is done so that a train that has problems changing modes, can still be diverted to Hunterspoint Ave if need be. I dont know the tractive effort on those rolling garbage cans. I said I operate on LIRR not work for them. Im one of the Green GP38 fellas. :>)
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. Do you operate days or nights?
This is done so that a train that has problems changing modes, can still be diverted to Hunterspoint Ave if need be.
Why are they so paranoid about getting a little exaust in Penn Station? I mean look at Chicago Cough Gag Station. If commuters can survive that they can definitly survive a single diesel train platforming for a few minutes. Amtrak also lets NJT Atlantic City trains idle at the plstform at 30th St. That's just as confined as Penn.
Who ever gets up to 80mph on the LIRR? Lately even on the electrics we do no better than 55mph. Metro North trains make LIRR's look like a SILVER SNAIL...
I don't know about that. I once looked out the front of a cab car on a weekend Port Jeff scoot, and on straightaways was hitting 72 MPH. It was 9 minutes late out of Stony Brook, and 5 minutes early into Huntington. It was 4 cars.
Damn 72mph, he was way over the speedlimit. He should be taken out of service for that. It does not matter how late he is he should not be doing 72.
HI all, Baseball season is just around the corner and that means Fantasy Baseball time. If you into fantasy sports I just started up a league at the SANDBOX.com web site. It's free to play and lots of fun. The name of my league is
NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT LEAGUE
It's a private league that requires a password which is
MTA
This league has 9 spaces left so join quickly, if you know of someone you likes Fantasy Baseball please e-mail this posting to them.
I guess that no matter which teams compete for the championship, it will be a SUBWAY SERIES
I'll sign up. Thanks for the info. I was on a team 2 yrs ago. I forgot about it last year.
HOW do you get into the individual leagues??? I can't find it on the site......
Ok after you create your team you must go into join a league. Once your in that you have to type in New York City Transit in the search box my leagues should pop up
How does the draft work?
For warmer weather;
I plan on hosting a field trip to Bridgeport Connecticut via Metro North. From Bridgeport we'd take the ferry to Port Jefferson, L.I. and return via LIRR to NY Penn. We'd take a Local Train to Stamford where we would explore the station being converted to island platforms and view Amtrak trains. We'd change for a train to Bridgeport. We will explore the Bridgeport surroundings before boarding the ferry to Port Jefferson. Once we arrive at Port Jeff, we;d look around before boarding a train to NY Penn.
This would be scheduled for a Saturday assuming the ferry runs Saturdays.
Please e-mail me off-site if you are interested. No definite commitment will be made unmless I have at least 4 subtalkers express an interest.
All ticket costs would be paid by each subtalker.
For warmer weather;
I plan on hosting a field trip to Bridgeport Connecticut via Metro North. From Bridgeport we'd take the ferry to Port Jefferson, L.I. and return via LIRR to NY Penn. We'd take a Local Train to Stamford where we would explore the station being converted to island platforms and view Amtrak trains. We'd change for a train to Bridgeport. We will explore the Bridgeport surroundings before boarding the ferry to Port Jefferson. Once we arrive at Port Jeff, we;d look around before boarding a train to NY Penn.
This would be scheduled for a Saturday assuming the ferry runs Saturdays.
It would be easier to do the trip in the opposite direction, starting with the LIRR rather than Metro North. That's because the LIRR station in Port Jefferson is up a rather steep hill from the ferry dock.
The ferry indeed runs on Saturdays (and Sundays).
[... the LIRR station in Port Jefferson is up a rather steep hill from the ferry dock.]
Very good point Peter ... however, there is a Suffolk Transit Bus, which I would suggest in any case, because it's a long walk.
Port Jefferson is a lovely little town, so doing lunch their might be nice ... I like the resturant on the dock & eat outside under an unbrella. Eat light because the place is a little pricey.
[... field trip to Bridgeport Connecticut via Metro North. From Bridgeport we'd take the ferry to Port Jefferson, L.I. and return via LIRR to NY Penn.]
The ferry is a very nice ride ... bring your walking shoes to get to/from the ferry/Metro-North.
Mr t__:^)
Thats the S60. You can catch it from the street ajacent to the station. It is a long walk down the hill and the bus runs on a hourly schedule. They dont take metrocards so make sure to bring cash. Bills or coins.
BTW: It might be a long walk but its worth it. Its all downhill and there are many shops along the way.
I wasn't aware they were converting Stamford to island platforms. Are they doing or have they done that at Bridgeport? I hevan't ridden on that line since 1980.
Bridgeport is still two wall platforms. The current big project at bridgeport is the rebuild of I-95
Thanks for the update.
Oh yea it's a big mess on 95 at that point.
There is work going on at Stamford too, at M-N platforms.
I like the new pedestrian overpass, the two lighted stairways go up, but don't connect at the top :-)
Mr t
the trip will be scheduled for May, 20010. We will leave from ATlantic Ave in Downtown Brooklyn and take the LIRR to Port Jefferson. From there we will walk down hill to the ferry (or take the bus). We will take the Ferry to Bridgeport, CT. Once at Bridgeport we will explore the station before boarding a Metro North Train to Stamford, explore the conversion of Stamford to island platforms and board a loca; train to Fordham Station. From there we will walk to the A line, viwing the University Height Hudson Line Station and NYCT's 207 Yards along the way.
Participants will pay their own fares. Costs are limited to train and ferry fares. Bring a fun pass, token or MDave- post this as a future event
Sounds like a fun trip.
One additional note: You'll have to CHANGE AT JAMAICA, so folks could also board at Penn Stn & meet up with you there.
BTW, To find the bus schedule of Suffolk Transit call 631-852-5200 or use their web site sct-bus.org and the ferry number is 631-473-0286.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks, Thurston. I suggested Atlantic/Flastbush so the group could see Woodhaven LIRR. Perhaps the Penn people could meet us at Port Jeff or meet our train from Brooklyn at Jamaica and board our train.We coudl tell them to board the head car. Pleas e-mail me off-site. I'd like you to co-host.
>>>...and board a loca; train to Fordham Station. From there we will walk to the A line, viwing the University Height Hudson Line Station and NYCT's 207 Yards along the way. <<<
Do you realize what a hike that is? It's at least a mile with a lot of it up hill. You'd do better to take a bus to 207th St.
Peace,
ANDEE
I did it and I am not exactly 18!
Whatever. Just so you know how long it is.
Peace,
ANDEE
Change of tour:
GCT to Stamford via New Haven Line Local. Explore Stamford. Board train to Bridgeport. Explore Bridgeport. Express Back to Grand Central. An option is available for those interested--round-trip ferry from bridgeport to port Jefferson back to Bridgeport. No LIRR ride, no Fordham.
If this is not appealing then the idea is off.
What is the theoretical maximum number of cars that can be linked together? What was the maximum number of cars that were actually linked together?
I think that some freight trains have exceeded 200 cars in length. Many freights frequently run with 150 cars. When trains get that big you start to have problems with slack action, train line pressure and brake application (unless of course you have some helpers on the rear and/or FRED helping out with the air.)
I wasn't aware that FRED had anything to do with the air on a freight.
For those not in the know, FRED is a Flashing Rear End Device - a bright red light affixed to the rear of a freight train replacing the caboose.
FRED - also monitors brake air pressure and sends a reading to the engineer, right?
And in an emergacny application the FRED can open the brake line from the rear instead of waiting down the length of the train??
That's a thought..I never tried it when I was an engineer and it was not part of our training to "dump the air" from both ends. The purpose of the Fred with rear end emergency capabilities was in case an angle cock had been closed in the train therefore rendering brake applications ineffectivebeyond that point, excepting of course for brake pipe reductions caused by leakage. We almost had a runaway on a 2% grade near Helena, MT because of that several years ago. The brake pipe was tight, no leakage, so there was no loss of rear brake pipe air that showed on FRED to indicate trouble, until a brake application was needed..and no reduction on the rear! Lucky they stopped. Because of such incidents New Freds were made that could dump the air on the rear.
Yeah, Fred's a good guy as long as he's got batteries. Drop Dead Fred ain't just a movie though and on a longie, it's a long way to the back just to give Fred some food. :)
No one really answered your question, assuming it was
about NYC subway trains> I hope Train Dude will confirm or
deny this information: The rule book says at most 12 cars
may be operated in train without restriction. Longer trains
are permitted in emergencies, e.g. when one train drops dead,
but then it becomes a restricted drag. In actuality, you can
run about 20 healthy cars without too much difficulty.
On the offical PATH site, there's a route that goes from Journal Square to 33 St via Hoboken. Why would someone take this route instead of the direct Journal Square to 33 St route? How long does it take to turn the train around at Hoboken?
That's what they do on weekends and late nights to save money. That route and the WTC to Newark are the only two lines running at that time. So you are forced to go the "long" way whether you like it or not.
Chuck Greene
They don't do it on weekends, per se, anymore. It's now only at night. Of course, the nights are a little longer on the weekends.
That routing runs during after hours (basically Midnight to 6AM) when direct service from 33rd St to Journal Square does not operate. There is not much passenger traffic at that time to warrant direct service.
Why would someone take this route? They have no choice.
How long does it take to turn the train around at Hoboken?
- Since Hoboken is a stub end terminal it takes only a few minutes for the crew to walk to the other end of the train. PATH may hold the train there for a short time depending on the schedule.
A note of interest until a few years ago the 33rd - Journal Square via Hoboken ran at all times on the weekends. Exactly why they changed to direct service on the weekends I am not sure but it probably has a lot to do with the big increase in passenger traffic to Newport/Pavonia (where the Newport Center Mall is).
PATH is expecting to report close to 74 million passenger trips in 2000, up from 64 million passenger trips just two or three years ago.
Who knows? They may even re-open the 2nd platform at Newport some day.
Construction on a surface link to the side platform was supposed to begin Monday, March 5 (based on the weather forecast, I'm sure it will be pushed back a few days).
There already are what, 2 stairways to the side platform (currently gated off at the top mezzanine level). For fire safety they need 3 or 4.
When that platform is open, how are they going to use it? "For Hoboken or 33rd street take this stairway, for WTC or JSQ take this stairway"? If so then people transferring the "wrong way" (got on wrong train at Hoboken/Christopher/Exchange/JSQ) will have to go up and over to get to the other platform.
Also, Pavonia has an elevator, but only on the island platform. Will they cough up a few million to install an elevator on the side as well?
WTC-HOB service on weekends came about at around the same time as the separate 33st trains, I think. Before then people would have to change at Grove or take the ferry.
Until a short while ago, midday 33-HOB and weekend WTC-HOB trains were 3-4 cars long. Middays, they would sometimes do the coupling and uncoupling within the stations at 33rd or Hoboken and leave the extra cars in the station until they would be needed again. I don't recall signage telling passengers to walk to the front of the platform during off hours, so people unfamiliar with the practice ended up waiting at the doors of the unused cars until they heard the doors close at the front of the station, and saw what they perceived to be half the train leave.
Except of course to Zone 1, you can't buy a ten trip ticket from Jamaica (or main st) to anywhere! Metro North and NJ Transit offer intermediate Ten Trip tickets, why not the LIRR? Even if there was no discount, it'd still be better having one ticket for ten rides.
The real question should be, why do RRs dislike the 10-trip so much? MARC and SEPTA have none (I think, though 5 2-trip MARC tickets have the same effect). NJT has no discount except for MNRR stations, and you can not get them from TVMs. The LIRR 10-trips until recently were off-peak only and still can not be bought from TVMs.
The only RR which shows support for 10-trips is Metro North, they have intermediate tickets, peak ones, and they can be bought from TVMs.
PATCO has 10 trip tickets.
Yesterday's class began at the Union Hall, and one of the people speaking went through the different car types, and mentioned "new cars, coming to the B in a couple of years". As the 143's are coming to the L this year, this must be the proposed R-160 assignment. Of course, this is nowhere near set in stone, and can change, but it does show where their thinking is for now.
One note-- in a couple of years, the B will still be going only to 34th, so the rest of the cars will have to go somewhere else. Perhaps the W in anticipation of the rejoining of the lines, or maybe temporarily to the D, since it is in the same yard, and then on the full B when service is restored.
The R160 are linked in 4-car sets I believe. If that is the case, they should run on the B-Divison Eastern Division. But they can probably converted to 5-car sets as well.
I heard that the specs for the R160 aren't even made yet. How do you know they will be in 4 car sets?
He doesn't. He was assuming that they would be like this. If the cars are 67' cars, then running 4 car sets would be pointless. By the Way, are r-143 units 67'?
No, 60 ft. Think they were going to make a 67 ft car, like a compromise between 60 ft and 75 ft, but I guess they changed their minds.
The BMT standards were 67ft', and a 9 unit 67' train is as long as a 10 unit 60' train. If they aren't going to make the R-143 67' cars then what arrangement will they be in? (75' is unacceptable due to their demand on BMT Eastern div. 67' cars can go there)
I assume 5 car sets.
They will be used on the BMT eastern Div. J/M/Z trains can't run 10 car trains, and they can't run 5 car trains (too short). And, they will have to be able to run on the Broadway Elevated, sometimes.
If the R-160 order is scheduled to replace as many as 1,000 R-32/38/40/42 trains, they're not going to all be on the Eastern Division. Some may be linked into four-car sets, but the MTA will either come up with five-car sets or supplemental two-car sets so the trains can be used in 10-car sets on the Southern Division and the IND.
Also, just for public relations purposes, since the R-143s have to go to the Eastern Division, I'd be willing to bet the bulk of the R-160s go to the Southern Division and IND to keep riders on those lines happy, while the surviving R-32 and R-42 cars are shifted over to live out their lives on the Eastern Division. There may be a handful of R-160s on the J/L/M/Z, but the MTA is not going to send two straight new car orders to the Eastern Division.
"The MTA will either come up with five-car sets or supplemental two-car sets so the trains can be used in 10-car sets on the Southern Division and the IND."
The TA will not order cars in this fashion. R-160 units will just not run on the Eastern division (ok, maybe L can be included). The best Way to order cars that will run on the BMT E div. and The BMT S div is this:
Married pairs (highly unlikely)
3 car units in 67' cars (also unlikely).
And, no R-42's will survive the R-160 order. Anyone who wants this info for themselves can go to the TA's website and look up capitol projects. Only the Westinghouse rebuilt R-32's will survice R-160 (of the 60' cars)
Does that leave enough R-32s and R-143s to run on the Eastern Division? If the R-160s are hooked up into five-car units that would mean the 32s and the 143s would be the only trains the Eastern Division could ever use, unless they wanted to go to five car-only trains.
The R-44/46/68s certainly can't be moved over to the Eastern Division for the remainder of their lives (well, they can run on the Eastern Division once, but that would be it). So if the R-160s are assigned to the Southern Division and IND, that leaves the R-32s as the only trains to shift over to the Eastern Division. And if they're all linked into four-car sets for the J/L/M/Z, that means the MTA is stuck with 480-foot units for 600-foot platforms if they ever switch the things over to the main Manhattan truck lines. Surely the MTA has a little bit more foresight than that.
(1)Do you know how many r-32's there are?!? Enough for the entire E and C lines. Enough for the BMT Eastern Div certainly.
(2)I said make the r-160 like the r-110b, 67' units in 3 car sets. This way, you could run 6 car trains.
(3)There's an interesting thing about R-44/46/68 units. They could be run all the way to Myrtle Av. without incident. And, you could route them up to Metropolitan Av, but when they crossed from the B'way el to the Myrtle Av. el, no train could come in the opposite direction (they'd scrape each other).
(4) Who said link the r-32 into 4 car units? They are married pairs, capable of nearly any config.
(5) L trains run 10 cars.
1) There are currently about 1600 60-foot cars on the B Division, 600 of those R-32s. If they get rid of all the R-38/40/42s and some of the R-32s, they will be very, very close to the minimum number of cars needed for the J/M/L/Z when you add in the R-143 order. And that's too close a margin of error should there suddenly be some problem with the R-143s or R-32s that forces them out of service.
If they linking the R-160s into five-car sets would limit their versatility on the system a 4-4-2 set-up or a 6-4 linkage would allow both 10-car sets and eight car sets.
2) I have no problem with the 67-foot cars. I have no problem with the MTA buying 150-foot long triplex units with 50-foot sections that could be used four per train on the IND and BMT Southern and three per train on the Eastern Division. But apparently the MTA has a problem with 67 footers or triplex units, even though both could be used on every line in the system, something the 75-footers can't do.
3) I never said link the R-32s. I said linking the R-160s into four car sets (or six as mentioned above)
4) L trains run 10 car sets? Only if the passengers in two of the cars are exiting into the tunnel. The L platforms would all have to be 600-feet long to run 10-car sets, and they aren't.
1)Only 10 R-32's will be retired. So don't say: There's not enough. that's roughly 580 cars. R-40M/42 fleet together is only 500. So, the argument that there wouldn't be enough cars is total bs. Look, J/M/Z/L lines use only about 600 cars anyway. 212 r-143's and 580 r-32's. Seems like more than enough.
Also, linking the cars into different types sets creates problems (G line cars going to V).
2)I agree. MTA should either buy 67' cars or those 'Triplex' units. But they won't.
3)From your past post, if u said link the r-160 cars, that is completely against this whole post; r-32's and r-143's on the eastern div.
4)Maybe i'm wrong here, I'm not an L rider, but i think L trains do run 10 cars (can a regular L rider confirm this).
4)Maybe i'm wrong here, I'm not an L rider, but i think L trains do run 10 cars (can a regular L rider confirm this)
No. The whole eastern div. is 8 cars. Don't know why they don't consider extending them, especially given the extensive rebuilding going on the Bway Bklyn local stations. But they just don't mind keeping the whole section operationally separate.
Also, the poster before said only 10 R-32's would be retired. I guess these are the GE overhaulled. Why don't they just convert them to WH like the others? Just because they were rebuilt like the R-38's doesn't mean they have to be scrapped with them. Save the bodies (which are the durable part of that fleet), replace the electrical components.
Well, i thought the L was 10 cars, but hey, we all have our weak points about subway facts.
Extending the platforms would be ridiculously expensive. Especially on those elevated platforms.
That poster before was me, and ding-ding-ding, you're right again! R-32GE will be the ones retired. The reason they don't re-build them, is because they are technically r-38's, and run with the '38 fleet. If they retire the r-38's (which are not nearly as good as the '32 units), the 32GE units will go bye-bye. It would be too costly to re-build just 10 cars. It would also be a waste.
*Note*- although I mentioned that the 32GE units run with the 38 fleet, a number of A and C trains have trains that run mixed '38s and 32phaseI/II cars. I don't know why they do this, but they do.
But since it's the BODY that makes the 32's better than the 38's, there is no reason to scrap the bodies. Strip out the inner components (the parts that are "technically" R-38's), and add R-32 style components. People have said that the 32's would eventually need to be overhaulled again to extend their life, so just send these cars with the rest.
The R32GE have no air conditioning! Well, technically the DO have air-conditioning but it is not operational due to defective compressor cradles on all ten of the cars. And two of them have already been picked over for parts (3934-3935), so only eight remain on the road.
I would not be too surprised if they were scrapped early or at least converted to work motors or rider cars even though they are married pairs.
wayne
I just don't see why these cars can't be rebuilt to their sister car's standards...What's so hard in doing that...Someone please answer this for me.
I'm not a regular L rider, but at least I can say that the L does not usually take 10 cars. Neither does the J/Z nor the M. The platforms on those lines are not long enough to fit 10-car trains.
CWal
(8^)
1)Only 10 R-32's will be retired. So don't say: There's not enough. that's roughly 580 cars. R-40M/42 fleet together is only 500. So, the argument that there wouldn't be enough cars is total bs. Look, J/M/Z/L lines use only about 600 cars anyway. 212 r-143's and 580 r-32's. Seems like more than enough.
Also, linking the cars into different types sets creates problems (G line cars going to V).
2)I agree. MTA should either buy 67' cars or those 'Triplex' units. But they won't.
3)From your past post, if u said link the r-160 cars, that is completely against the logic of this whole post; r-32's and r-143's on the eastern div.
4)Maybe i'm wrong here, I'm not an L rider, but i think L trains do run 10 cars (can a regular L rider confirm this).
"L" trains run 8-car consists. All of their stations, AT LEAST the Underground section ones, measure 512 to 536 feet in length; which is only long enough to run 8-cars of 60-foot equipment. I think the elevated and grade section stations on the "L" line also conform to this platform length as well; although Atlantic Avenue may very well be an exception.
wayne
According to the RFP for the R-160s, they are ordering 85 4-car sets and 64 5-car sets.
Since the R160 order is replacing subway car series R38-R42, it can only be concluded that these cars will make appearances on the existing lines with those cars
Such As:
(C), (J), (M), (Q), (Z)
However, there is no doubt in my mind that these will make appearances elsewhere except the (L) which by the time the R160s arrives, the (L) will be a full R143 line.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
What you say is not necessarily true. I Seriously doubt that the C will get any R-160's. More likely, it will get all r-32's. It is also unlikely that the Q will get any R-160's. J/Z? Well, if the C retains R-32's then probably, but otherwise, no.
And, that report says: 660 R-160 cars. This is not enough to replace the R-38/40S/40M/42. The 40/40M/42 alone is near 800 cars!
What it will do is begin to replace the worst of the bunch, and expand service.
-Hank
No, they would have been 4 car sets. 8 67 ft cars would fit, as did the old BMT standards (even though they didn't always run that many cars on all lines)
From previous posts on the board. It will definately run in 8 car trains since it will be on the L Line no? NYCT has has a linking deal going on. Everything after the R62s are now linked. Save's money. I doubt it'll stop.
Some just e-mailed me this information:
Nothing's in stone yet, but it looks like the four-car units
(340 cars) will be assigned to East New York Shop for J/M/Z service, and the five-car units (320 cars) will be assigned to Jamaica Shop to provide most E service. Either your instructor was wrong or premature, he meant B DIVISION (not B LINE), or he's got better information than I've got (and I'm probably closer to the situation than he is...
(As I acknowledged, it did dawn on me to think whether he meant div. or line). Also, if the cars are also going to the E, it would be really nice to have those blue-capable multicolor LED's in the front sign.
This is to everyone that replied to my post above this one. Message 200370 that is. I just realized I was a few contract numbers off. I was talking about the R143 not R160. Whoops... sorry.
Are you sure they didn't mean B Division? :)
Shawn.
This dawned on me right after I posted. But I remember I did get that impression. I think he said "line" or "train" instead of "division".
R-160's are replacing ALL 60ft cars except r-32's. That's too many cars for just the B line.
Let me get this straight. People are discussing the assignment of cars for an order that hasn't even had its specifications written?
No wonder people think railfans have no lives.
-Hank
OK.
Here's a good one, sure to make you laugh. On the Bay 50th station of the West End exists(ed) the famous flashing buzzer signs.
You know those "APPLAUSE" like signs which light up and buzz when a train in the direction you are headed is about 90 seconds away from the station.
Only problem is that on the Manhattan bound side of the Bay 50th station the buzzer for trains "To Manhattan" would go off in error all the time, because trains headed for the Coney Island yard would often activate the buzzer and then diverge off on the switch taking it to the yard.
Of course in the nice weather it wasn't too much of an issue, but man, when it was 10 degrees in the winter time and most of the rush hour passengers were huddled in the vestibule and that buzzer rang, it was like the starting gate at Belmont. Off they go, running up the stairs, and you know those 7 dirty words you can't say on radio. Each one was said when people saw some out of service D train heading into the yard and away from the Bay 50 Street station.
So back down the stairs for some, others weathered the cold. Curious, anyone encounter a station that had this constant dilemma of bogus trains activating those carnival like signs?
Step right up folks and see the disappearing yard train!
WestEnd Express
All the Far Rockaway line stations get it when, after about 5:30, almost every other arrival at Far Rock runs OOS to Euclid. When it joins the el they have the decency to put them on the center track, so Boyd, Hudson, and possibly Rockaway Blvd don't get it. Often the trains run through stations at 35 MPH when doing this, I don't think there is any special signal system installed in those stations requiring the 'slow to 15' rule.
I know the annunciator (what the train announcing signs are called) at Van Wyck Blvd does not go off when a train coming from Archer Ave is going to switch to the express, but does when the train stays on the local track. I think the sign is tied in with the signal system somehow, that's the only way I can explain it. The part with the sensor is in the tunnel before it connects with Queens Blvd.
I remember reading somewhere that this used ot be an issue on the old Culver Shuttle after it was single tracked. The "to Coney Island" buzzer used to go off whenever a train went over the sensor between 9th Ave. and Ft. Hamilton, regardless of the train's direction, so sometimes, people would rush up at the buzzer, only to see the rear end of a train heading away, toward 9th Ave. Same thing btwn 14th Ave. & FHP.
subfan
Happens all the time at Kings Highway on the D. A real pain late night in the cold when the Garbage Train or the Money Train comes through. The run through local to the Hwy interlocking and then come back on the express track and go downstairs to Dunkin Dounuts >G<.
Sometimes you don't even need a buzzer or any kind of signal for people to start running like fools. Case in point: I used to board Amtrak at the Rochester station when going home on college furlough. The local bus connection would get me to the station a good hour before train time. After sitting and reading in the cramped, smoky waiting room building for twenty or so minutes, I would go outside to the platform to stretch my legs and get some air.
Every time I did this, everyone else would look panicked, grab their baggage and rush outside after me. They'd see no train in sight (a PA would always announce arriving trains five minutes in advance, anyway) and give me the dirtiest looks.
All I could say was "I just went outside to get air. Did anyone SAY the train was coming?"
Don't you love when people ASS-U-ME?
I can achievea similar effect at my office by staring out the window for more than ten seconds. People start flocking over asking if it's an accident or a car being towed away.
When i was a kid my friends and i would be in Manhattan and look up at a building just looking up after a few minutes a crowd would be there, someone would say (not one of us ) " i see him there he is" and we would leave,with people thinking a jumper was there i bet it would work even today.
>>> When i was a kid my friends and i would be in Manhattan and look up at a building just looking up after a few minutes a crowd would be there, someone would say (not one of us ) " i see him there he is" and we would leave <<<
Hey dummy! What part of town were you from? Didn't you know you were supposed to have a couple of "dips" work the crowd once they were looking up? That's why the kids on the east side pulled that dodge on tourists. :-)
Tom
Because we were only having fun,not to steal like the a#%&*@%s that inhabit the streets today,which i don't think is dumb....so there.
What are you favorite rail systems? My personal favorite is the Metrorail of the WMATA. It's so advanced and so comfortable and well planned.
Mine? NYCT subway system. It has a history behind it, something few subways boast. Plus it has express tracks. No other subway system can even spell express.
Well, actually the Broad Street Lines have express tracks, and you might say that the Market St Subway tunnel has "express" tracks which are used for the MFL while the "local" tracks are for the Subway-surface Lines.
J: I'm with you all the way on that. There is nothing like the New York Subway. Nothing like it in the world. I get a charge and high every time I enter a station, which is not very much since I can only come as a tourist on vacation. But when I'm in the city, if anyone wants to find me just track down some BMT line and I'll be there wearing my navy blue "N" shirt.
It has a history behind it, something few subways boast.
All subways have a history, some more than others of course. The transit systems of Boston, Philly, Chicago, San Francisco and New York each have their own unique histories, not to mention the transit systems of many smaller cities. Overseas, the London Underground and Paris Metro have at least as much history as the NYCTA.
Plus it has express tracks. No other subway system can even spell express.
Some people in Philly and Chicago may quibble with that assertion. And unlike New York, Philly and Chicago can both boast express trains that are actually known to achieve speeds upwards of 55 MPH. New York may have more lines with express tracks, but crawling along at 35 MPH hardly counts as much of an express in my book.
My own nominations for favorite transit systems:
Most extensive coverage and frequent headways: New York (second place: Chicago)
Best variety of rolling stock and stations: Boston (second place: Philly)
Best fare-payment system: New York and Chicago (tie)
Most architecturally significant stations: Jubilee Line extension in London (second place: Washington Metro)
Best views of the city from trains: Chicago (second place: Longfellow Bridge on the MBTA Red Line)
Least crowded subway: Cincinnati (second place: Atlanta)
Best vintage subway car: BMT triplexes
Best modern subway car: Bombardier 01800's on the MBTA Red Line
Most versatile subway cars (able to fit almost anywhere): CTA rolling stock
Best destination of any transit line: Coney Island
Transit system that inspires the most civic pride: Chicago's L (second place: NYC subway)
Best use of a single letter of the alphabet by a transit system as a proper noun: The Boston T (second place: Chicago L)
Best vintage subway station: IRT City Hall
Best modern subway station: MARTA Peachtree Center (second place: O'Hare on the CTA Blue Line)
Best el stop: Damen/Milwaukee and Quincy/Wells in Chicago (tie)
El stop born to be used as a film noir movie setting: Smith/9th on the Culver line
Best el stop to be built in every NIMBY's backyard: Queensboro Plaza
Best transit idea of the vintage era: Dedicated express tracks, New York
Best transit idea of the modern era: Transit lines in expressway medians, Chicago
Coolest use of tracks on different levels: Five Points station on MARTA (second place: Porter Square on MBTA Red Line)
Best light shows due to third rail arcing: CTA during a good blizzard
Did I miss anything? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Good job Dave. To remain on thread I'll say New York and Chicago compete for top billing in my book.
New York for its massiveness, 4 track min lines, and what it meant to me as a child growing up. For items one and two I'd have to rate it as #1 in the world. (Not that many others don't have their values)
Now if they could only move faster and bring it up to its full potential. With all the speed reductions running times were better 70-80 years ago than they are today. But still a great system.
For Chicago: the trains move fast, I'd call State or Dearborn subways both dungeons but they serve a good purpose as trunk lines. The highway median a good idea and they're outdoors; but the crowning glory is how much of the original el [L] lines are intact, lines that feel like they're part of the neighborhoods and even with modern equipment are almost like the old times. Then there's the North side expressway to Howard.
I would add the Metra Electric (former Illinois Central). As a kid, visiting my Granddad,and later an adult after college working in the Loop, there is little to compare with standing at the "storm door" of the heavyweights as they cruised the express section between 53ed and Roosevelt Road. Second for me was the CTA L. Riding the 6000's as an eleven year old nose to the glass at the front of the train roaring down the L.
Unfortunately I never did ride the IC (they had the old steel cars that I liked back then) but did my share of time on the 6000's they were fun to ride. Of course my favorites were the 4000 steel cars..and the North Shore (on my 1961 visit). I did ride the South Shore a few times. Thanks for sharing.
Least crowded subway - Cincinnati? Um, I'm not one to quibble, but Cincinnati's subway, a stretch of tunnel used by streetcars, has been out of service for decades, so I suppose it would not be crowded. Perhaps you were thinking of Cleveland?
I was making an attempt at humor. Cincinnati's subway never even saw streetcar service, as the tunnels come to a dead-end near the intersection of Central Parkway and Walnut Street.
But if you really hate crowds, you won't find a better subway than Cincinnati's.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I feel that the best subway trains (in comfort, maybe not otherwise) is the MFL in Philly. Great for tourists too, since it announces the stops, connections, and some points of interest near that station. The BSS trains are okay, although it always seems dark. They even have "vandal proof" seats. Otherwise, they are pretty cool. I had even thougth they might've been a later edition of Budd trains since they had similiar window sections to the Almond Joys.
>>I had even thougth they might've been a later edition of Budd trains since they had similar window sections to the Almond Joys<<
Actually, the B-IV's were based on the Almond Joy design, the only thing that is different between the two are the dimensions. In fact, mechanically, they shared many of the same components as well, so that is why I wished that Kawasaki got the order instead of Adtranz, that way, there would be a next generation of Almond Joys.
Actually, I prefer to think of the B-IV's as something Brill or Pressed Steel would have built in the '80's. They even brake squeal like the Brills, but there's no growl.
Yeah, Brill or Pressed Steel could have built the B-IV if they were still in business, but you can't deny the similarities in the carbody construction, even in the interior, where the side windows are at, if it wasn't for the fact that there's a "Kawasaki" builder's plate on the pass-through door, you would have swore that they could have been Budd's.
Wow, that is so cool, I didnt' know that. Now I understand why Kawasaki is so highly respected.
David,
GREAT summation, THANKS.
Peace,
ANDEE
Remember that Russia has subways too, an despite their lack of government funding, they can still beat NYC.
Most extensive coverage and frequent headways: New York (second place: Chicago)
Moscow has 80 second headways on some lines, the least frequent off-peak service (arounf midnight) is every 6 minutes.
Weekend service in NYC is pathetic, and even rush hour service is not that great. And it's slow.
And how about higest daily ridership?
Moscow beats everyone else by far, with 9 million daily rides in a city of 9 million people.
The Moscow subway also has several station that were built during Stalin's time and they look more like museums or palaces than Rapid transit facilities. Also the Moscow subway is very clean. You will have a hard time finding even one piece of trash.
So in my opinion Moscow wins, especially given that they get no subsidy whatsoever and still manage not only to run all the trains on time, but also to expand the system.
and at 5 kopecks a ride too
It costs more now, especially since kopecks are no longer minted.
New York ranks first in my book. Now if they only speed up the trains just a bit.
San Francisco would be second. Something for everyone.
Chicago would ne next. Nice, fast runs, albeit noisy in the subways.
Hartsfield International Airport People Mover!!! YEAH!!! I've ridden it so many times, I pretty much grew up with it, yet I'm still excited every single time I ride it.
2nd fave: NYC subway
BTW, did anyone catch "World's Buiest Aiport" on the Discovery Channel last Sunday? I only saw the last 15 minutes, but they did talk about the People Mover sometime during the show.
My favorite is of course the New York Sub System since I grew up on it and still look forward to riding it when I visit.
My LEAST favorite is the farce of a system they have here in San Fran called the Municipal Railway System (MUNI)....or the slang term is PUNI.
ScottinSF
No one mentioned it so I'll take the liberty, PATH how could anyone forget PATH? One dollar fare from Newark Penn to Herald Square. (Going up to $1.20* Still a bargain.) Runs 24/7 most systems can't even say that. And it is bi-state. 7 of 13 stations ADA accesible. (Now how many systems can say they are more than half ADA compliant?) And has one of the best safety records in the country. Even has its own news channel in every station. I rest my case.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
*Cost of 20 trip Quickcard after increase $24, which calculates to $1.20 a ride
Now how many systems can say they are more than half ADA compliant?
Pretty much every single subway and light rail built since the 70s.
I like Dallas and Salt Lake City's systems, not just because the trains and stations are generally clean and attractive, but because both systems are expanding rapidly and confidently with lots of local support. There's a lot to look forward to in these systems.
NYC is of course my favorite subway system. It is the only subway system in the nation that is actually big enough to serve the city. The speed is the factor that really sucks. I was very impressed with the system, I just kept telling myself that the train would go a little faster like on the CTA. I'm used to a very slow zone and then up to full speed before comming to a last second hault into a station.
The CTA here in Chicago, where I live, would have to be my second favorite by only 1 or 2 percent behind NYC. Simply because the CTA is almost big enough for Chicago, but the South-Side has no rail service past 95th St., that is stupid, good thing I'm a northsider. The size of NYC is what really makes it so great. Both NYC and the CTA have new renovated modern stations mixed in with old stations. The Chicago/State Red Line and Western/O'Hare Blue Line projects are suppost to be done this summer and they both will make quiet a contrast in the system. Chicago Ave. is going to be awesome, it already is showing some of it's new beauty. Western will probably be just a modern station similar to the Green Line stations. They will both greatly contrast the stations that are before and after them, though.
You really can't compare many things to a ride on the CTA Green Line between California & Ashland & Ashland & Clinton. There is about 1.5 miles on each of these streches. The train really gets up to full speed and stays there for a while. You look down and see Lake Street directly below you and hear and feel the rumble of the train. It really is a unique experience that not many other transit systems can duplicate for the speed, or running on a steel elevated structure directly over the street. Just plain awesome!!
Another awesome ride is the CTA purple Line express. Between Wilson and Loyola as you rush past station after station, it feels like you are going 100 mph as you look out the window. Another just plain awesome ride. It is a shame that it only runs during weekday rush hours though, those poor express tracks just sit there otherwise only used for train movements occassionally. All day purple line express service is what the CTA lacks in terms of being considered a great system. It still is pretty cool though.
Sorry if I got off topic, but that's why NYC & CTA are my # 1 & 2 transit rail systems.
Aah yes.. memories of Lake and skip stop service with the 4000's in the early 60's. And the 6000's from Howard to Jackson Park or Englewood via State St. No speed controls then..they sure hauled a-- down that South side, skip stops and all. Railfan's dream.
My favorite is the subway in New York. I always look forward to riding on it when I visit. I purchase the $4 fun passes to take advantage of unlimited rides. I go out of my way to use express lines, 2 and 3 under Broadway, A under 8th ave, and Lexington 4 and 5. I use both the A and the 2 or 3 to get to downtown Brooklyn. The 2 or 3 seems to have the best run under the river. I think it has the best sounds, especially in Redbirds running underground.
For second place, the PATH outdoors between Newark and Jersey City. As far as heavy rail, the Northeast Corridor between Trenton and Newark, and the New Haven line. Both are best powered from the wires and opened all the way up. Regards, A K Howard, Memphis TN, born in Brooklyn.
>>> What are you favorite rail systems? <<<
If by rail systems you mean rapid transit, NYC has to be the first choice, with Paris second, but if you include trams, Amsterdam comes in second.
Tom
Just a though for those wo love trolleys. Amsterdam--like wait at Central Station..has more activity I'm sure than could have been on 42 st, Broadway, or even West Farms Square in the Bronx. And they go so many places. If you plan on a trip to Europe count it in. But watch your wallet..the place is known for pickpockets. So much for legalizing drugs..or are they In Holland?
I agree that New York has a great subway, and it beats what we have in Philadelphia by an unfathomable margin, but I'm kind of curious as to what everyone's favorite rail transit systems are outside of NYC metro. I like MARTA a lot, just because its easy to go joyriding on whenever I have a long layover in Atlanta.
Mark
London Underground.
I like the Yerkes Tubes and the 1959 stock which, unfortunately, has now been retired, and the 1938 stock unit that's been preserved in working order that never seems to go out on fan trips. Only the privately owned Cravens 1960 stock train seems to run on fan trips on a regular basis.
-Robert King
Rob, check out the Island Line on this site. Next time you are over pay it a visit (easy day out from London) you can ride 38s all day.
Simon
Swindon UK
That's like going to Kenosha to ride on TTC PCCs. It isn't really the same and, when the 38s were overhauled prior to being placed in service on the Island Line, the classic 1938 interiors were done away with pretty much entirely except for the window profile and the guard's panels. There aren't any substantial underground sections on the Island Line either to ride the 1938 tube trains through that could compare to the Bakerloo or Northern lines. To their credit, I'm really pleased to see that one of the Island Lines units is now being repainted in the London Underground paint scheme.
-Robert King
Better than nothing.
Simon
Swindon UK
My favorite transit rail system is the MBTA because it is the closest system and its like the Metro in Washington D.C. but smaller and older.
I remember, as a college frosh in NYC ten or eleven years ago, boarding the "L" at First Avenue one time. It really jarred me that there was such a thing as First Avenue station; when you lived in NYU dorms, First Avenue was far, far away (mentally, that is. And I guess economically!)
For some reason, I'm becoming charmed by the memory of such "simplistic" stations; the ones with two tracks, serving only one line - 2nd Avenue station on the "F," 3d Avenue on the "L," and Bowery on the "M." It just seems that there were precious few stations in Manhattan that didn't have mazes and walkways and crossovers between lines and four-track corridors.
Mind you, I enjoy all that complexity, as well. There's just something about, say, 1st Avenue station that made it something of an oasis of calm in the subway system.
Anyone else have anything to say about those "loner" stations?
2nd av of the F and Bowery on the M are not simple 2 track ststions. actually, Bowery is sorta weird in that it has 4 tracks. 2nd av on the F has 4 tracks too.
You'd love Park Place on the Franklin (S). One track station, fits only 2 cars, trains run in both directions. Kinda like Metro-North's 'Tenmile River' station.
Anyway, I think the coolest 2 track Manhattan station is 181st. It's 35 degrees outside, pouring rain, yet down there it's 65 and no sign of the weather except a few drops of water by the elevators. You can hear no street noise at all. Everything said or done echoes. Same as 168st (which is more dimly lit) but that has transfer passages...
I don't know about First Avenue being "easy going". I grew up in Stuyvesant Town...and at 3:00 P.M.....when the Boys at Stuyvesant High School got out of class...the place was a real zoo. (And when I was of age, I became one of those animals.) Maybe its a mellow station now, since the high school moved downtown.
179th St through Sutphin Blvd has nothing but the F, but they're not exactly "mellow". The 7 isn't either, or at least Main St. and Shea aren't. Maybe stations like 111th or 103rd on the 7. I guess the Queens stations on the M, or J/Z, or A would count as mellow.
:-) Andrew
OOOPS! This is about MANHATTAN "Easy Going" stations. OK. I guess the two local stops on the F, 23rd and 14th (though the rats at 14th make it less than enjoyable.)
:-) Andrew
I don't THINK that qualifies as 'mellow' due to the PATH stairs.....
At 14th downtown there is that new annunciator. Instead of a buzzer the thing sounds three tones, "There is a downtown train one station away. Please be careful when descending to platform level(or something like that)" followed by three more tones.
They're quite common, especially outside Midtown. (Manhattan doesn't end at 60th Street, you know.) Your typical local station (on the IRT and BMT, at least) has an entrance to one platform from one side of the street and to the other platform from the other side of the street.
While I dig Clark Street on the 2...
242nd Street is... Nice!
I was in New York a few days ago visitng family. I was going to the 103rd st station on the Broadway line. My mother and I were going downtown and we were walking toward the entrance on the uptown side. I said Mother were on the wrong side of the street. She told me she goes in that way all the time. And she was right, you can enter from with side of the street. I'm Very much used to all the other broadway line stations that don't have a crossover under the street.
I still enjoy the challenge of navigating Times Square or Grand Central. Reagrds, A K Howard ,Memphis TN.
I suppose quietest station in Manhattan has to be Broad Street on the J/M during the weekend, since it's closed. As for the stations that are open 24/7, Rector on the 1/9 is pretty quiet, except for when people have to rush from the back five cars to the front five to avoid being locked in at the South Ferry loop.
The First Ave. station on the L is still pretty hectic at the west end of the station during rush, because they've never built that Ave. A exit, so all traffic onto and off the trains has only one stairway to use. But the departure of Stuy High has cut down the 3-4 p.m. crush a bunch.
The First Ave. station on the L is still pretty hectic at the west end of the station during rush, because they've never built that Ave. A exit, so all traffic onto and off the trains has only one stairway to use. But the departure of Stuy High has cut down the 3-4 p.m. crush a bunch.
Third Avenue on the L seems to be significantly less busy than First Avenue. It's close enough to Union Square, with all the latter's connections, that it serves relatively little purpose.
Next to Bowery, Third Ave. on the L is probably one of the least used stations in lower Manhattan, though probably more used in the last 10- to 15-years since the immediate are has been fixed up (Robert DeNiro's attack on Jody Foster's whore house in Taxi Driver was shot at 13th Street and Third Ave. because of its sleazy general appearance -- the area from 14th St. down to Canal on Third Ave. and the Bowery really didn't change much from the time the Third Ave. el was torn down until the late 1980s)
E Bway on the F is no house of fire either, as I recall.
57th and 6th is another "oasis of calm" beneath the chaos. Right in a busy part of midtown, it's a simple two-track, one-island platform which serves only the Q train -- which is usually nearly empty, even at rush hour. The tile floor of the mezzanine echos as you walk along. Then 1 stop away and you're at 47-50 which is always busy.
Of course, 57/6 will become much busier once the connection to Queens Boulevard opens full time. I doubt the station is really equipped to handle the flow of passengers it will get without some modifications to the exits.
CG
2nd Ave's complexity should increase a bit once the V starts service - and terminates there.
The economic distance to the rest of Manhattan is gone - which has probably added a lot of the station's traffic.
As for calm, it's anything but. It's packed at rush hours. F trains are so full by the time they hit 2nd ave northbound that you usually can't get on (it's quicker to just walk to B'way Lafayette). And at midnight on weekends you still have to get in line to get up the stairs.
As for NYU dorms and 1st ave., every new dorm they build seems to move closer to there. The newest is on the northeast corner of 3rd and 14th.
I was just on the IRT #7 Line and I saw a lot of Mainline R-36s in some of the trains. Are all of them moved over from the IRT #6 line? What's going on? Are they scrapping some of the redbirds on the IRT #4, #5 and #6 lines?
Most likely they came from the 6 line, all ml birds on the 7 seem to come from there. And, yes 4, 5 and 6 trains will be loosing the 'birds'. Any remaining birds from those lines will go to the 7. And the 5 had better get the r-142's, or else i'll....i'll..... Awww, i can't do a thing. But seriously, 2,4,5,6 lines should get r-142 units (assuming they start running regularly)
As of February 14, 2000:
9524-9535 on the 6.
9536-9557 on the 7.
No Redbirds removed from service yet.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
WF R-36s 9478-9523 are also on the 6.
-Stef
The following ML R 36s are permanently on the 7 line: 9536-9539 9542-9557. I dont see 9540 and 9541 in this picture. They didnt come over if they did then how come they havent been seen on the 7 line yet????????? Where are they???????? It seems no one knows. The ML R 36 cars arrived to the 7 line in Dec 2000 and Jan 2001. Also the following ML R 36s recived Corona stickers 9546 9547 9550-9555 the others still wear Pelham stickers. The other ML R 36s will be over soon with some ML R 33s. These 10 R 36 cars are on the 6 line temporarily: 9404 9405 9420 9421 9426 9427 9428 9429 9456 9457.
Question related to the 7 line: In the 11 car trainsets that the 7 uses, there's one double-ended car. What designations do these cars have? I know they're different on the inside (different ceiling fans, simpler ceiling, only four (four!) grab posts in the car). Are these the R-33s?
Dan
"Question related to the 7 line: In the 11 car trainsets that the 7 uses, there's one double-ended car. What designations do these cars have? I know they're different on the inside (different ceiling fans, simpler ceiling, only four (four!) grab posts in the car). Are these the R-33s? "
Yes they are R-33's. Single R-33's as opposed to the R-33 mailine cars. The R-33 singles are the only revenue cars with fans.
R-33 Mainline cars.........#8806-9305 Married pairs
R-33 Single cars...........#9306-9345 (#9306 retireed in 1976 and in
Transit Museum in Brooklyn
Bill "Newkirk"
I am wondering what cars will run on the effected subway lines this Summer when the 63rd Street Tunnel connector opens and the Manhattan Bridge switches sides?
Are the line changes finalized for both 63rd Street and the Manhattan Bridge as of now, 27 FEB 2001AD? Is it possible that they can extend the Q trains over to Queens, using the Broadway connection and 63rd Street Connector north of 57th Street-7th Avenue? Where can they send the Q train to in Queens? If so, will it be local or express?
1) The car assignments will be as follows:
R-68(a): Q brighton/broadway exp
B 6av. local
D 6 av. exp
W West End/Broadway Exp.
G crosstown local
r-40s: Q Brighton local/broadway exp.
eastern div. lines (to replace departing r-42's)
r-42: N 4th Av. exp/Broadway local
R-32: N Broadway local
R-46: V 6th Av./queens pl local
F 6th av. local/Queens pl exp.
2) Line changes aren't final, but hell, they might as well be. Not much you can do to strech out the TA's thin fleet
3)They can't send the Q to Queens. The TA doesn't have enough cars. If they did though, it would be impossible, with 2 lines on the exp. track and 2 lines on the local. Queens P is already at full capacity. If By some miracle, they found some cars AND room on those tracks, it would be a 63rd st local service, most likely to continental.
OK, hold on now.
For us slow-thinking seniors what does this add up to?
A: R-38s, R-44s, some R-32s
C: R-32s, some R-38s
IND B: R-68A
IND D: R-68A
E: R-32, few R-46
F: R-46
R: R-46
V: R-46
J/Z: R-40 (40M?)
L: R-40 (40M?), R-143
M: R-40 (40M?)
G: R-68A
W (West End): R-68A
Q (Brighton Lcl): R-40
Q (Brighton Exp): R-68A
N: R-32, R-42 (40M?)
S: R-68-1
R-40 Mods?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Nope -
B will be ten trains 80 cars R-68
D will be fourteen trains 112 cars R-68
G will be R-68 (likely 6-7 trains)
I would once again remind you that NOTHING is in stone - yet.
However, the new side destination signs for the R-68 have been purchased. They will include 145th St and 34th St./6th Ave. which are not included on the current signs.
What does the MTA do with the old rollsigns?
I'm not allowed to say :)
Still wonder why they just didn't put the 200 R-68A's to fill Concourse (which already have those designations) and keep all the 68's together in CI. That way, all you would need would be the new route signs for the 68's.
Concourse could just bring back up the MDBF of the 68A's; no reason to spend more money on new signs just so they can cling to the same cars.
200 R-68As were not enough to meet the B/D service requirements.
Why are they using the R-40s on the Brighton (Q) Local, and why are they using the R-68As on the Brighton Expresss? The express is a part time line and the (Q) Local will be the full time line. The idea is to use older equipment on a part time line. That's why the (B) and (Q) switched cars in November 1997. Can they use the R-46s on the G? Any extra cars left over from the E, F, R and V lines can be moved to the G line. Which yard will the G line use?
AFAIK, the R-68As have diamond Q signs while the slant R-40s do not.
Extra cars left over on the E/F/R/V???
Whatever R46s the G won't need because of its cutback will go to the V. There will be no extra cars. The G though will most likely still serve Jamaica, unless it is brought down to Kings Highway or farther on the Brighton line. It could always walk into Queens Plaza posing as an R and run local to Continental to get to the yard.
G will op out of Coney. NOT Jamaica.
Isn't that going to uneven the # of trains between JAM and CI? Also, if you're right, would this be the first time revenue service R46s were put into CI? {I mean for layup, not for checkups}
Can they use the R-46s on the G? Any extra cars left over from the E, F, R and V lines can be moved to the G line. Which yard will the G line use?
Once the dust (from all the car swaps) clears, Jamaica will have a very low spare count. They will NOT have spare cars for the G line. The G will be supplied out of Coney Island.
"They can't send the Q to Queens. The TA doesn't have enough cars. If they did though, it would be impossible, with 2 lines on the exp. track and 2 lines on the local. Queens P is already at full capacity. If By some miracle, they found some cars AND room on those tracks, it would be a 63rd st local service, most likely to continental."
Great-If this came true we'd end up with 3 locals to Continental, just what we need to serve Eastern Queens. {Please pardon the sarcasm.}
Do you think it will be a good idea to relabel the (Q) Brighton Local as (T), and keep the Brighton Express as ? This will avoid the confusion between a (Q) local and a express.
What about if they returned the (N) as a Broadway Express via the Manhattan Bridge 24 hours a day? They can run the (N) express in Brooklyn and bypass DeKalb Avenue on weekdays only 6am-8pm. At all other times, the (N) will run local in Brooklyn. Then they can send the Brighton (Q) local via the Montague Street Tunnel like they did with the (QT) back in 1960-1967 on the weekdays.
That would make too much sense. It'll never happen.
I just recently moved from Bayonne, NJ, to Brooklyn and I live near the N line. Just in time for me to experience the good (South Side of Bridge reopens), the bad (shutdown of Coney Island station {in stages} beginning October 2001), and the ugly (N line voted the worst train in NYCTA by the Straphangers' Association) of the Sea Beach line.
I am not a very active participant in this message board, but I want to have a say in this.
My proposal would be:
N- 57/7 to CI B'way/4thAV Exp via Bridge/Sea Beach (All Times)
Q- 57/7 to Brighton Bch B'way/Brighton Exp (Peak, Midday, Evening)
R- Same
T- Astoria to CI B'way/Brighton Lcl via Tunnel (All Times, Note: T for Tunnel)
W- As Proposed by TA
You almost bring back the glory days of the B'way BMT and keep Sea Beach Fred and the Brighton guys happy. (My apologies for referring to Brighton line railfans as the Brighton Guys.)
Have a great day!
Jose
Is that because they're not the Brighton guys in the world? :)
Astoria T: Well get busy and get more involved----especially after your great suggestion. Needless to say your suggestion was like preaching to the choir as far as I'm concerned, and you made a friend. Your suggestion if implemented would make me very happy. I have one question about the R. Don't we need one train going local to 95th Street? You had the R doing something else. Clue me in on that. Other tham that, however, you came through like a champ. Good job.
Thanks for the compliment. I'm honored!
When I grew up in Astoria I had a "thing" with the "T" and R32's during the mid 60's. Can't explain it. I was very upset in 1967 when Chrystie was opened condemning the Astoria line to just being a "RR" local with unpainted (pre-graffiti) R16's.
In my proposal I have the R doing the same route as today, local all the way between Continental Av and 95th St, through the tunnel. I'm sure there will be some short-turns at Whitehall during rush hour.
I'll be even happier if you could switch the "T" with "W" designations and then you have the T (B'way/West End Exp via bridge) and "W" (B'way/Brighton Lcl via tunnel). REALITY CHECK: The possibilities of bringing back "QB" and "QT" are even more remote than hoping for the "T" to be brought back into use.
Have a good day!
JOSE
PS- I like the "Astoria-T" reference. My handle is too long anyway. Time to change names...
Glad I helped alter your handle. I think Astoria T has a nice ring to it, and it is only a return favor of sorts. I got my handle from Steve 8AVEXP, so it is only proper that I return the favor to another railfanner. Enjoy your new handle.
Umm, you probably won't read this message, but there are short turns at Whitehall. They run to Whitehall, lay-up at Ctiy Hall LL and then return light to Whitehall for the evening rush.
Good idea-Brighton gets 1 on the bridge, and 1 through the tunnel, 4th Avenue gets 2 for the bridge, 2 for the tunnel {when the M is running.} This argument has been occuring over and over again.
Last weekend when i receive a letter from NYCT to report to 1250 Broadway this coming thursday 3/1/2001 for NYCT Traffic Checker. I will be taking drug/alcohol screening & pre-interview. I took that test for NYCT Traffic Checker back in July, 1999 & the test is very easy. Starting Salary is $11.4875 an hour. But i know this job is suppose to be P/T job but it really a F/T job.
Peace
David Justiniano
www.geocities.com/justin2669/NYCTransiTrans.html
Congrats. I take it you're 21?
Nope RTS 2150, im early 30
Peace
David Justiniano
www.geocities.com/justin2669/NYCTransiTran.html
Congratulations! May you find success in your new job. Please remember that you can move forward onto bigger and better things in Transit. I feel you can only move upward.
I still hope that after a few years maybe I can leave Stations and head to Rapid Transit Operations to receive my handles.... Hehe, anything's possible.
-Stef
Hopefully maybe will both be in the Next Promotion Train Operators class.
Being a Conductor is ok but I can't wait to move up front.
I hope we'll get in there. I don't know about your personal preferences when it comes to car equipment, but if I'm lucky I'll operate a Redbird before it bites the dust.....
Well anything's possible.
Cheers,
Stef
My favorite when it comes to being up front is a Redbird. If it wasn't for Redbirds I don't think I would be in transit.
However as a Conductor thats a diffrent story I'll stick with the R62 at least if theres a Door Problem I don't have to go under the seat but just turn my key to Cut out.
For this CUSTOMER it's nice to know there will be another employee at the TA who CARES about the system ... very best of luck !
Mr t__:^)
Best of Luck and congratulations on your new career.
Yo Mike, do u work in the morning or afternoon? I take a #2 train to work in the morning.
Peace
David Justiniano
The MNRR Port Jervis Line has registered a 10%[!!] ridership increase in the last year. Ridership on the Hudson line is up also,although the parking situation on the Hudson Line is reaching BEYOND the saturation point . Go to www.th-record.com for the story [its on the fron page there...]There are no details on which stations are the biggest gainers,but one has to assume Harriman and Middletown there....The new station/parking lot in Middletown is QUICKLY getting more crowded every day.
I wouldn't count out Salisbury Mills-Cornwall. Every time I'm there I have to park further away from the track, and all those new houses in Washingtonville (that all look EXACTLY the same) are probably at least partially responsible.
The parking at Beacon drives me nuts. Not one single metered space after 8:00 on a weekday. Not even on the street. The last time I tried to catch a train at Beacon I got there ten minutes early to look for a space, and by the time I had looked everywhere and found nothing the train was pulling in. I wound up driving to Cold Spring (btw, it is impossible to race a train from Beacon to Cold Spring) and catching the next one.
You try the shuttle from the Newburgh Short Line parking lot?
Haven't tried it. I figure if I have to make a transfer, I'll do it in Hoboken.
The LIRR put the February "Keeping Track" on the seats of their trains today. They listed several schedule changes on their Port Jefferson and Montauk line trains, and they use the terms "out of Penn Station" and "Will arrive in Penn Station" a lot. They do not mention any train changing, however they also neglect to mention the word "direct." I was tempted to ask the conductor about this but it would seem weird since I was on a West Hempstead train.